00:01:03 <elliott> Why is this worm encased in lava?
00:01:07 <elliott> Mysteries of the universe.
00:04:34 <kmc> that's a good juxtaposition
00:07:58 <elliott> monqy: Guess who keeps dying. :(
00:08:25 <elliott> That monqy. Always with the science.
00:09:56 <elliott> I wonder what's going on here.
00:18:21 <elliott> since i'm wearing chain mail
00:22:07 <elliott> monqy: oh ziggurats are really scary right
00:22:51 <monqy> the first few floors aren't that bad but if you're paying the entry fee you're aiming a bit deeper than that
00:22:53 <elliott> oh there's an entry fee? never mind then
00:23:10 <shachaf> how mchu is the tenryf ee/
00:23:57 <elliott> _Your potion of coagulated blood rots away.
00:24:41 <elliott> maybe i should put fightingon sometime
00:24:45 <elliott> eh i'll do it with uc reaches 10
00:29:25 <elliott> monqy: btw how much more effective is minor destruction compared to a dart
00:30:51 <elliott> urgh orc warriors always hit harder than i expect them to
00:31:47 <elliott> i wish i had more scrolls of id earlier
00:33:00 <monqy> i prrefer minor destruction over darts
00:33:13 <monqy> oh hey looks like you're in a jam
00:33:33 <elliott> i can probably get away w/ scroll of tele and stairs if i can solve the immediate problem of having no hp
00:33:46 <elliott> the plans i can think of are
00:33:49 <monqy> good luck not dying next turn
00:34:03 <elliott> (b) quaff a potion of might and hope i can wack the remaining health out of the orc warrior before they attack me
00:34:16 <elliott> (c) read the unid'd scroll (but i think i already know blink)
00:34:16 <monqy> the 5stack is probably curing if you havent ided it already, but good luck outhealing the orc warrior
00:34:23 <elliott> how can i tell what scrolls i know
00:34:25 <monqy> you can check \ to see
00:34:39 <elliott> ok so i can either quaff might or curing
00:34:51 <elliott> well, at least i'd have died either way
00:35:39 <elliott> time to get into another jam over the course of a few thousand turns
00:37:00 <elliott> also wow the ghoul hunger system is so much less annoying than the regular one
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00:39:46 <elliott> monqy: is levitation useful for getting away from things
00:40:16 <monqy> if you want to get away from them by hovering ovver water or lava
00:41:32 <monqy> who's that, sigmund?
00:41:45 <elliott> i can either whack him (my unarmed combat skill is pretty good), or quaff a random potion
00:41:50 <elliott> or back up (if i do that i will probably die)
00:42:00 <monqy> yeah he has reaching so
00:42:43 <monqy> fsvo actually, worked
00:43:03 <monqy> afaict you missed sigmund and lost hp
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00:43:34 <elliott> wow he had a scythe of dragon slaying
00:43:43 <monqy> elliott: scythes are bad
00:43:49 <elliott> monqy: not if they slay dragons!!!
00:43:50 <shachaf> Finally I can tabcomplete uninterrupted
00:44:04 <monqy> 17:43:28 < shachaf> monqy: hi
00:44:06 <shachaf> elliott: You're the only person with a nick starting with 'e' in here.
00:44:08 <monqy> shachaf: did you have something to say
00:46:38 -!- elliott has left.
00:46:46 <shachaf> soon ripe. soon rotten. soon gone. but not forgotten.
00:46:50 <monqy> shachafe you kiled him
00:47:03 <monqy> killed him with your
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00:54:46 <shachaf> monqy: hlepe elliott put me on /ignore
00:57:45 <kmc> shachaf: hecked
00:58:08 <shachaf> Headlines for tomorrow's newspaper.
01:00:03 <kmc> Your Aim could Be next
01:00:20 <shachaf> I don't like elliott's Even very much.
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02:53:38 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Mon Apr 30 19:53:37 2012
02:53:52 <elliott> ah, the monkey's hour of hibernation
02:53:54 -!- elliott has left.
02:54:53 <quintopia> how do i set up my time zone with lb?
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03:10:43 <fungot> PiRSquared17: eos end of stack ( xd). a common fnord medication to remove the fnord...
03:10:54 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
03:11:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bots: not found
03:11:16 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
03:12:31 -!- japh has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
03:13:40 <HackEgo> Warning: unknown mime-type for "hi" -- using "application/octet-stream" \ Error: no such file "hi"
03:13:58 <HackEgo> bash: ruby: command not found
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03:14:50 <elliott> again, stop fucking with the bots like that or you'll get on their ignore list.
03:15:02 <elliott> HackEgo and fungot both respond to private messages
03:15:02 <fungot> elliott: i find postfix-colon keywords significantly harder to read.... and the stack overflow.
03:15:21 <elliott> quintopia: you don't have to
03:15:24 <lambdabot> Local time for quintopia is Mon Apr 30 23:15:23 2012
03:16:53 <quintopia> is my time zone hardcoded in there?
03:17:04 <elliott> yes it's part of the lambdabot source code
03:17:16 <elliott> into lambdabot's source code
03:17:43 <elliott> and just uses the hardcoded timezone instead
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03:26:35 <lambdabot> Local time for test1_2_3 is I just set some random TIME result
03:27:37 <elliott> no, it predicted you were going to do that
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03:48:44 <kmc> sigh, a 200 line C library is not "trivial"
03:48:52 <kmc> it might be simple or straightforward
03:51:16 <pikhq_> Well, it could actually be trivial.
03:51:26 <pikhq_> Though that's unlikely.
03:51:44 * pikhq_ imagines a 180 line switch statement that does not-much
03:51:44 <kmc> maybe if it's all obviously dead code
03:51:55 <kmc> (i mean 200 source lines, not incl comments and whitespace)
03:51:55 <elliott> "trivial" just means "easy" now
03:52:05 <kmc> elliott: or "possible"
03:52:06 <elliott> evidence: people say "extremely trivial"
03:52:10 <kmc> but i rage against this usage
03:52:11 <pikhq_> Like, effectively a lookup table.
03:52:11 <kmc> i rage so hard
03:52:24 <pikhq_> I'd say even a 200 line lookup table is probably actually trivial.
03:52:28 <elliott> i rage against "raging so hard" against something :p
03:52:33 <kmc> pikhq_: I'm not sure I would even call that trivial
03:52:45 <kmc> to me "trivial" means not only simple and straightforward, but so simple there is almost nothing to say about it
03:53:05 <kmc> the 200 line lookup table / switch statement is probably not devoid of implementation details
03:53:17 <kmc> anyway there's no absolute cutoff
03:54:43 <kmc> but I'm extremely skeptical of a claim that any 200 lines of C is trivial
03:56:26 <kmc> the particular code I'm talking about is signal-aware multiplatform event-based UNIX IO code
03:56:44 <pikhq_> I... That seems quite nontrivial.
03:56:50 <pikhq_> I'd have to think about it!
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05:13:45 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
05:14:38 -!- shubshub has joined.
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06:01:16 <fungot> LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK AROUND YOU LOOK ...too much output!
06:02:25 <fungot> **:***:****:*****:******:*******:********:*********:**********:***********:************:*************:**************:***************:****************:*****************:******************:*******************:********************:*********************:**********************:***********************:************************:** ...too much output!
06:02:32 <shubshub> what variable does egobot use when doing userinterps
06:02:32 <fungot> ***:***:****:*****:******:*******:********:*********:**********:***********:************:*************:**************:***************:****************:*****************:******************:*******************:********************:*********************:**********************:***********************:************************:* ...too much output!
06:03:02 <fungot> *:**:***:****:*****:******:*******:********:*********:**********:***********:************:*************:**************:***************:****************:*****************:******************:*******************:********************:*********************:**********************:***********************:************************: ...too much output!
06:08:19 -!- cheater has joined.
06:13:28 <Sgeo> Wormsong 2011 sucks
06:13:28 <fungot> ~:(:)*S(*)*~:^:~:(:)*S(*)*~:^*:~:(:)*S(*)*~:^**:~:(:)*S(*)*~:^***:~:(:)*S(*)*~:^****:~:(:)*S(*)*~:^*****:~:(:)*S(*)*~:^******:~:(:)*S(*)*~:^*******:~:(:)*S(*)*~:^********:~:(:)*S(*)*~:^*********:~:(:)*S(*)*~:^**********:~:(:)*S(*)*~:^***********:~:(:)*S(*)*~:^************:~:(:)*S(*)*~:^*************:~:(:)*S(*)*~:^********* ...too much output!
06:14:48 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
06:15:03 <Sgeo> ^def inc bf ,[+.,]
06:18:53 <Madoka-Kaname> elliott, can't start out the stack with (:(a)a~*^:(b)a~*^:(c)a~*^(d)a~*^) or something?
06:19:03 <elliott> that's not input though :)
06:19:35 <Madoka-Kaname> ^command argument -> (~:(a)a~*^:(r)a~*^:(g)a~*^:(u)a~*^:(m)a~*^:(e)a~*^:(n)a~*^(t)a~*^)
06:20:06 <Madoka-Kaname> Er, (:(a)a~*^:(r)a~*^:(g)a~*^:(u)a~*^:(m)a~*^:(e)a~*^:(n)a~*^(t)a~*^)
06:20:57 <elliott> right, that's an input scheme
06:25:57 <Sgeo> elliott, which graphics thingy, if any?
06:26:05 <Sgeo> Out of Mayday's, Phoebus, and Ironhand?
06:26:32 <elliott> (b) mess up all the text and make it super hideous
06:26:56 <shubshub> why is egobot not on this channel anymore?
06:27:03 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?
06:27:20 <fungot> (Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?)S
06:27:59 <kmc> > let 2+2 = 5 in 2+2
06:28:38 <kmc> no :t is a specific command
06:28:42 <lambdabot> [5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5]
06:28:45 <Madoka-Kaname> > let 2+2 = text "This isn't kindergarten, is it" in 2+2
06:28:54 <kmc> Madoka-Kaname++
06:30:13 <Sgeo> elliott, I am currently: Being stupid and reinstalling DF
06:30:18 <Sgeo> Because I'm lazy
06:31:27 <Sgeo> shubshub, @type gives the type of a Haskell expression
06:31:53 <kmc> How does sh Accept INPUT
06:32:10 <kmc> i have no idea what your question means
06:32:24 <shubshub> how does the sh language accept input
06:32:29 <kmc> you mean unix shell script?
06:32:34 <Sgeo> `run read $blah; echo $blah
06:32:39 <kmc> input of what kind?
06:32:46 <kmc> you get command line arguments as variables $1, $2, etc
06:32:51 <kmc> you can read lines from stdin with 'read'
06:32:57 <kmc> you can also read a book or web page about shell programmin
06:33:14 <elliott> or you could just ask all your questions on irc and have people promote the behaviour by answer them
06:33:25 <elliott> even if they give a token recommendation to act differently afterwards
06:35:27 <Sgeo> elliott, I think I was anticipating the reinstall wiping the texture thing I installed. It did not
06:35:34 <shubshub> How does sh accept input from egobot?
06:35:54 <elliott> with the linux version its just in one convenient directory
06:36:11 <HackEgo> rm: missing operand \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
06:36:37 <HackEgo> bash: /j: No such file or directory
06:37:11 <shubshub> How do I make it output the source?
06:37:35 * Sgeo attempts to refrain from profanity and insults
06:38:04 <shubshub> because im tryimg to add an interp to egobot but i dont
06:38:13 <shubshub> knoknow how to make it read the input
06:38:37 <quintopia> maybe you should not add an interp to egobot then
06:38:52 <elliott> you guys realise that he goes away if you don't talk to him right
06:39:34 <shubshub> Why won't someone just help me?
06:39:41 <quintopia> shubshub: go read up on shell programming and come back when you've written the thing. we can't possibly give you all the info you need here.
06:40:11 <elliott> quintopia: i think this has gone on long enough to adequately demonstrate he's not interested in changing his behaviour
06:40:20 <shubshub> .... *facepalm* Your not understanding what Im saying
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06:40:38 <Sgeo> shubshub, the best help we can give you is to tell you to at least try to learn on your own
06:40:46 <quintopia> elliott: sorry, i wasn't here to see it going on
06:41:25 <Sgeo> Read up on stuff. If you're reading, and have questions about what you're reading, then sure, ask
06:41:33 <Sgeo> But at least get started independently
06:41:42 <elliott> how often does #esoteric get employed in the service of teaching someone how to learn
06:42:32 <shubshub> I just want to know how to get the input ive read everywhere and it wont tell me
06:44:42 -!- japh has joined.
06:45:05 <japh> wrote a javascript dcpu-16 emulator, working on compiler
06:47:20 <quintopia> japh: are you just another perl hacker
06:48:09 <japh> perlmonk at your service
06:49:59 <Sgeo> I just murdered two dwarves in the Object Testing arena
06:50:11 <elliott> just another poison hacker
06:50:49 <quintopia> japh: not http://perl.plover.com/obfuscated/ this guy?
06:52:40 <japh> no i'm this guy http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=140353
06:53:27 <japh> http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=139703
06:54:26 <japh> http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=135354
06:54:35 <japh> i was a nerd before it was cool
06:55:12 <elliott> I was cool before it was a nerd. :(
07:05:24 <itidus21> there there.. theres some possibility you can become cool again
07:08:30 <itidus21> you could vie for gregor-style cool
07:09:03 <itidus21> running the esolang wiki must increase your cool points
07:10:10 * itidus21 slowly realizes that the words wiki, vie, -style, points are all not cool
07:10:37 <itidus21> even the word cool isn't cool, as the simpsons explained
07:13:00 <kmc> itidus21: you're supposed to say "awesome" these days
07:13:03 <kmc> didn't you get the memo
07:16:56 <kmc> also be sure to refer to any technical problem as "trivial"
07:18:30 <itidus21> uh... regular use of the term non-trivial in non-mathematical contexts
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07:31:21 <itidus21> caption "Gary decided that escaping this gathering of his relatives to catch the game would be non-trivial."
07:32:51 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Tue May 1 00:32:50 2012
07:33:01 <monqy> im real tired i suhloudl slep
07:33:33 <monqy> but im too busy dragging myself throguh test.fk deespite being perhaps too tired to get anything out of it
07:33:43 <shachaf> monqy: instad ot slep ing try noten seleeping!!
07:33:45 <elliott> test.fk is the best "test.fk + elliott crawl literally the best funjoyment possible"
07:34:43 <shachaf> "whats even bettere than test.fk" "going to sleepe"
07:35:48 <pikhq_> Yup, it's definitely end of the semester.
07:36:09 <pikhq_> I'm procrastinating on nearly everything.
07:37:48 <shachaf> "the only thing you we have to procrastinate on is procrastination itself"
07:38:22 <pikhq_> Earlier this week I went to sleep at 6.
07:38:26 <shachaf> grammaphone = phone that gramma talks into
07:39:13 <shachaf> pikhq_: When are you coming to visit monqy and me in CA?
07:39:29 <pikhq_> shachaf: If I have sufficient funds to do so?
07:39:57 <pikhq_> I'm afraid that college is nontrivial in cost.
07:40:05 <pikhq_> And CA is nontrivial in distance.
07:40:12 <shachaf> go to college inc alifroniaa
07:40:57 <pikhq_> I mean, sure, I only need to go through 4 states...
07:41:13 <pikhq_> That's still ~1,000 miles.
07:41:58 <shachaf> anger, hate, misery, apathy, what was the other one?
07:42:08 <shachaf> Is the dark side a state? I don't remember this at all.
07:42:13 <shachaf> The point is that it ends in apathy.
07:42:30 <pikhq_> Amusing driving directions, though.
07:42:54 <pikhq_> "Get on I-70. After 500 miles, keep left at the fork."
07:43:13 <shachaf> Aren't you in Colorado or something?
07:43:23 <pikhq_> A mere 1,000 miles away.
07:46:08 <pikhq_> (specifically, Colorado Springs, CO.)
07:46:26 <shachaf> "thats like "double colorado""
07:46:58 <pikhq_> It's also astoundingly conservative.
07:47:23 <shachaf> "colorado springs, the worst garbage collector :'("
07:48:21 <shachaf> There ought to be a liberal garbage collector that randomly collects any ol' memory.
07:48:38 <elliott> liberal garbage collector: fox news
07:48:48 <elliott> a liberal garbage collector would be one that collects liberal garbage
07:48:50 <pikhq_> I suppose I'll eventually end up moving to CA, though. Or at an absolute minimum Denver...
07:48:53 <elliott> so i guess it's more daily kos
07:49:00 <pikhq_> Living near Fox's viewer base is a bit disturbing.
07:49:29 <shachaf> pikhq_: How did you end up in Colawhatever sSPRIngs, Coalhrwla/>/
07:49:47 <pikhq_> shachaf: I was born here.
07:49:56 <Sgeo> My dad watches Fox News. I pretty much have to listen
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07:50:06 <shachaf> So why are you going to college there too?
07:50:13 <lambdabot> It is forever etched in my memory.
07:50:46 <elliott> shachaf: Isn't diving great?
07:51:00 -!- Ngevd has joined.
07:51:07 <elliott> hi Ngevd, watch me play crawl
07:51:09 <Ngevd> I just made a Reffit account
07:51:17 <elliott> shachaf: You know, in Crawl.
07:51:27 <shachaf> Is that like Digging For Victory?
07:51:33 <Ngevd> Also, I'm using Windows
07:51:36 <shachaf> And for losery instead of victory?
07:51:51 <Ngevd> Wait, I've got Putty
07:52:48 <shachaf> crawl.develz? MORE LIKE CRUELLA DE VIL
07:52:53 <elliott> (you have to q and rewatch)
07:53:51 <shachaf> pikhq_: Money grows on trees in California.
07:54:01 <elliott> i guess that explains y combinator
07:54:38 <pikhq_> shachaf: Unless you're a college student, in which case you have net negative income.
07:54:43 <shachaf> if only monqy was here to see my twist :"(
07:54:48 <pikhq_> Or a college graduate...
07:54:54 <elliott> shachaf: why are you making stupid jokes when you could be watching me play crawl
07:55:23 <shachaf> pikhq_: No, it literally grows on trees.
07:55:33 <shachaf> did you know orange = monqy
07:55:43 -!- Ngevd has quit (Client Quit).
07:55:51 <pikhq_> Did you know that college costs all the money?
07:56:03 <elliott> currently im running from edmund and two jackals
07:56:07 <shachaf> I did, as a matter of fact. :-(
07:56:15 <elliott> actually currently i'm dead
07:56:23 <shachaf> "how elliott coutns, ep. 1:::::"
07:56:28 <pikhq_> I was born in the wrong damned country.
07:56:29 <shachaf> "how elliott coutns, ep. a bunch:::::"
07:56:31 -!- elliott has left.
07:57:13 <pikhq_> Country where people can't even pronounce my name. Bastards.
07:59:17 <pikhq_> Hard to get more English than a name like that.
07:59:28 <pikhq_> I suppose my first name could be something like "Gareth" or "Nigel" though.
08:00:00 <shachaf> ion: is heh.fi your wbeistee
08:05:55 <itidus21> gareth is one of those names that doesn't have a feminine counterpart
08:07:09 <shubshub> do /msg egobot !!!Batch <put letters here>
08:09:23 <shachaf> pikhq_: Are you in college in the summer? You should come to CA then!
08:09:28 <shachaf> It's the logical thing to do.
08:11:09 <pikhq_> shachaf: Would still need money to go to CA.
08:11:22 <pikhq_> Aside from that factor, though, totally awesome.
08:11:24 -!- elliott has joined.
08:11:30 <elliott> shachaf: Are you watching this?
08:12:26 <elliott> shachaf: You have to see this.
08:16:03 <shachaf> elliott: What a great game!
08:16:09 <shachaf> elliott: Are ou playing SpVM?
08:16:25 <shachaf> what dodes' "As'" standa for
08:17:23 <shachaf> Thanks, latency, for spoiling my humouur
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08:43:25 <pikhq_> The FDA is legally barred from banning tobacco.
08:43:56 <pikhq_> There is an actual law on the books saying tobacco, and tobacco alone, cannot be banned due to being unsafe.
08:44:12 -!- nortti has joined.
08:45:46 <shachaf> (cannot be banned) due to (being unsafe)
09:01:53 <shubshub> Why isnt egobot in this channel anymore?
09:02:41 <shubshub> @ask fizzie why isnt egobot in this channel anymore?
09:04:31 <fizzie> Don't ask me, it's not my bot.
09:04:31 <lambdabot> fizzie: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:05:52 <shubshub> @ask Gregor why isnt egobot in this channel anymore?
09:07:56 <shubshub> Ill Make My Bot And Call It S-Bot
09:08:51 <shubshub> It Will Be Ablle to Interpret My Own Languages
09:09:55 <nortti> shubshub: your programming language or the languah
09:11:19 <shachaf> fizzie: Have you considered the RACE CONDITION involved in using @clear-messages??!!!?!/!?!
09:18:17 <nortti> shubshub: ?!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?
09:18:36 <shubshub> i dont know what the other one is on the end
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09:33:29 <shubshub> fizzie: whens fungot comin back?
09:34:22 <shubshub> Hmmm now which language supports Online Capabolities
09:44:27 <nortti> shubshub: almost none of the esoteric languages support any kind of networking
09:48:31 <shubshub> Does brainfuck++ support networking?
09:49:24 <lambdabot> HackEgo: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:50:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: runecho: not found
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09:58:30 <Sgeo> Any PSOX-capable esolang + PSOX supports networking
10:00:01 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX
10:00:26 <Sgeo> It's not currently in a usable state. I abandoned it years ago, the copy in SVN is broken, no one supports it
10:01:33 <shubshub> I "might" be able to make it worm
10:02:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ': not found
10:02:28 <Sgeo> The support for files is broken
10:02:37 <Sgeo> And there are no plans whatsoever to fix that
10:02:43 <shubshub> What Language is it written in?
10:02:44 <Sgeo> Networking support should be good though
10:03:03 <Sgeo> http://trac.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk have fun
10:03:15 <Sgeo> It is an easy fix
10:03:25 <Sgeo> I know exactly what needs to be fixed, actually. Just never did it
10:03:37 <Sgeo> Ignore the README.txt
10:03:47 <Sgeo> shubshub, it's not a language
10:04:28 <Sgeo> It's a thing that goes between a program written in a language and stdio
10:04:51 <Sgeo> So that if you're running a Brainfuck interpreter under it, the brainfuck code can do things like networking stuff
10:05:04 * shubshub is actually now thinking of making a Networking language now ^_^
10:06:32 <Sgeo> shubshub, problems with PSOX: It's too elaborate and really only good with Brainfuck and similar languages
10:07:01 <shubshub> Ill make this lang in python to give its own networking ^_^
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10:17:34 <ion> shachaf: yeah
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10:25:48 <ion> shachaf: FSVO wbeistee
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12:23:17 <Ngevd> Hello, Phantom_Hoover
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16:06:08 <Ngevd> Didn't realise how RIDICULOUSLY FAST a good danger room is
16:07:02 <Ngevd> Competent to Legendary in seconds
16:07:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Weren't you there when I was using DRs to go from no military to siegebreaking /during the siege/?
16:07:25 <Ngevd> I was just after that
16:07:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Admittedly those all went awry for various reasons, mainly due to scrimping.
16:09:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, optimal DRing requires that you first get them up to legendary armour user by not equipping them with shields or weapons, then giving them their weapon until they become legendary in that, then finally giving them a shield and polishing it off with legendary shield user.
16:09:42 <Phantom_Hoover> The armour stage takes ages, but it increases their survivability a hell of a lot.
16:09:48 <Ngevd> Armour first? damn
16:10:18 <Ngevd> Well, that's a single dwarf ruined forever
16:10:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Nah, just remove their shield and weapon in the equipment skills then top off armour.
16:11:31 <Ngevd> I'll do that when I next go on
16:11:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Shield precludes weapon precludes armour, basically; the slower skills will basically grind to a halt.
16:12:53 <Ngevd> Thanks, mister Danger Room Hoover of Old Edinburgh Town
16:13:52 <Ngevd> Thanks, mister Danger Room Hoover of New Edinburgh Town
16:14:09 <nortti> Yay. I have succesfully buit busybox and musl using my own package manager
16:14:48 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, you should talk to elliott, he once made a package manager.
16:15:09 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: source based or binary based?
16:15:41 <Phantom_Hoover> It basically just automated ./configure; make; make install with some additional bells and whistles AFAIK.
16:16:34 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: My package manager supports syncing with repo, installing and uninstalling and has builtin dependecy resolver
16:18:32 <Phantom_Hoover> It occurs to me that elliott is probably going to yell at me because I described it completely wrongly, but now I totally have the drop on him because if he does he'll be dancing from my puppeteer's strings.
16:22:10 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: did it work with progams that want to be compiled by make defconfig; make?
16:23:45 <nortti> @ask elliott did your package manager work with programs that want to be compiled by make defconfig; make
16:24:51 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
16:24:52 <lambdabot> HackEgo: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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16:27:23 <HackEgo> Taneb is not actually Ngevd, no matter what you may have heard.
16:27:30 <HackEgo> +'.km.pԁ* \ 'ؒ.~(.$ls&y].CEj6)WaN..=ʵ%f.M.bͦeD4m0.&R..L{Noͳ[ʈ.7Kyv.$ppD \ })\0#hG0(T'.E1.cr5t=Z.V|......ߴl!¾.)_ i|IZf%k9$}:Tע\wHZq8 GXV'oF*ضhYL.ijŭB,z_9I
16:27:38 <Gregor> <Phantom_Hoover> lambdabot ignores HE these days. // why? It shouldn't be possible to botloop ...
16:27:38 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:27:42 <lambdabot> shubshub asked 7h 21m 46s ago: why isnt egobot in this channel anymore?
16:28:07 <nortti> Ngevd: I think it is trying to say that you are random
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16:29:02 <ion> If you need to add specific ignores to bots to prevent bot loops, YOU’RE DOING IT WRONG. Following the RFC properly, bot loops can simply never happen.
16:29:23 <ais523> ion: but everyone makes bots reply in privmsg rather than notice, partly due to mirc not following the standards, as usual
16:29:35 <Gregor> Mostly because notice looks fucking terrible in every client.
16:29:51 <Gregor> This is not acceptable.
16:29:52 <ion> ais523: Yep, following the RFC makes mIRC users use more effort to crying than it would take to uncheck the “GIVE ME AN ELECTRIC SHOCK WHENEVER BOTS SPEAK” checkbox. :-)
16:30:25 <Gregor> Find me ONE client in which this doesn't look completely fucking awful, ion. Seriously, one client.
16:30:26 <ion> It’s also annoying when bot messages look like human discussion, so you can’t skip them as easily.
16:30:41 <ion> I’ve been using Irssi and WeeChat and they look fine in them.
16:30:58 <nortti> ion: it looks terrible in irssi
16:31:27 <Gregor> You make the left column crazy wide anyway, Phantom_Hoover ;)
16:31:29 <nortti> I have no left colum :p
16:32:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Because the messages should all be left-aligned to the same place.
16:33:23 <Gregor> ion: Anyway, I avoid botloops with Unicode, which works great and looks great in virtually all clients.
16:33:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Because they form one continuous record of text; they shouldn't be jumbled up by additional information.
16:33:32 <Gregor> ion: And you will complain about for some reason or another.
16:37:35 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: I use length on nick to quickly differentiate between nicks
16:38:16 <Gregor> I use grammar, punctuation and spelling to do the same.
16:38:24 <Phantom_Hoover> You realise that you can still do that if it's centre-aligned.
16:39:37 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: well actually I just look at the text and if indentation changes I know that it is another nicl
16:40:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile I look at the text and get a rough idea of the nick from how long it is.
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16:57:37 <Ngevd> Do the update thing!
17:05:13 <Sgeo> Wasn't it a while ago though?
17:05:59 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, if you haven't seen update, update etc.
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18:43:50 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:44:07 <elliott> 19:44 <lambdabot> nortti asked 2h 20m 8s ago: did your package manager work with programs that want to be compiled by make defconfig; make
18:44:11 <elliott> @ask nortti What package manager?
18:44:37 <elliott> 16:26:53: <Phantom_Hoover> lambdabot ignores HE these days.
18:44:44 <elliott> @tell Phantom_Hoover False.
18:45:04 <elliott> 16:29:35: <Gregor> Mostly because notice looks fucking terrible in every client.
18:45:10 <elliott> ion: They're hideous in every client, not just mIRC.
18:46:17 <ais523> elliott: I brought up mIRC as an example, because not just is it hideous, it also causes a ping
18:46:19 <Gregor> To be fair, user-to-user notices look fine, it's just channel notices that look awful. But it's the fact that user notices look fine that forces channel notices to look awful, so yeah.
18:46:26 <ais523> that is, channel notices ping all mIRC users in them
18:46:45 <elliott> anyway, preventing botloops is evil
18:46:50 <elliott> the RFC is evil for trying to prevent them
18:46:58 <elliott> and Gregor needs to make HackEgo say @messages
18:48:18 <ais523> elliott: does it add invisible characters if someone else tries?
18:48:33 <elliott> Gregor: No, seriously; HackEgo has lambdabot messages.
18:48:38 <elliott> lambdabot will keep pinging it every now and then if you don't.
18:49:03 <ion> helliiot. I was feeling crawly, so i started a game at CDO. (I didn’t continue the old game at CAO yet since i felt like trying a naga since they apparently have a constricting ability nowadays.)
18:49:37 <elliott> Oh, idle for four minutes.
18:50:27 <elliott> You should go to the spiders.
18:50:30 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Tue May 1 11:50:29 2012
18:50:30 <ion> The Spider Nest didn’t exist either when i played the last time. Let’s see if i die.
18:50:50 <ais523> elliott: that's a rather belated happy
18:50:50 <elliott> ion: You have lots of HP. :(
18:50:58 <elliott> ais523: It's for California.
18:51:10 <ais523> (on a related note, I get vaguely freaked out whenever I look at the clock and see it's 5:23)
18:51:15 <elliott> ion: Are you using bigterm?
18:51:18 <elliott> Your messages keep overlapping.
18:51:20 <ais523> elliott: I mean you didn't say that in the same second as lambdabot's response
18:51:34 <elliott> No, I don't want to resize my terminal.
18:51:40 <elliott> I want ion to 80x24 instead.
18:51:42 <ion> elliott: Hit r to resize your terminal.
18:51:59 <ais523> elliott: hand of trog doesn't resize terminals
18:52:16 <elliott> ion: anyway, pls use 80x24 :(
18:52:29 <elliott> monqy: thanks for r though that's useful (for knowing when to yell at people)
18:52:33 <ion> elliott: Why?
18:52:52 <elliott> monqy: please explain to ion about politeness and morals and civilised decency
18:52:56 <monqy> elliott: you can also see on the games list if a termsize is bigger than yours (itle be red)
18:53:04 <elliott> yeah i know that part but "so much worke"
18:53:05 <monqy> ion: ask ##crawl about hugeterm
18:53:25 <ais523> <Henzell> hugeterm[1/4]: Any terminal size greater than 80x24 makes your games harder to watch for people using the standard size, which also means that all future viewings of your recorded games will be harder to watch. With ttyrecs specifically, larger terms mean both a scrambled view and a shorter playback time.
18:53:45 <ais523> nethack 4 does not have this problem!
18:53:53 <ais523> (and wouldn't even if watching were implemented!)
18:54:02 <elliott> 19:53 <Henzell> hugeterm[2/4]: Don't be that guy.
18:54:19 <elliott> except i guess your terminal has to be even bigger than ion's to qualify for "thatguyness"
18:54:22 <ion> Let’s try a kynäniska fighter. I suppose that translates to English rather well. A pencil neck.
18:54:26 <elliott> minor sins are sins; why is ion an octopus
18:54:28 <monqy> elliott i got eustachio the giant eyeball
18:54:48 <monqy> polying uniques to giant eyeballs means they can't cast
18:54:50 <elliott> ugh how can i decide between watching ion and monqy
18:54:53 <monqy> and he hadn't spammed summons
18:54:59 <elliott> you should have just skipped turns
18:55:13 <elliott> monqy: what are you doing this game
18:55:20 <monqy> i can dive if you'd prefer
18:56:44 <elliott> ion: have you seen monqy's spacebar play
18:57:10 <ion> What’s monqy’s spacebar play?
18:57:29 <monqy> it's not as impressive as autorobin or xw or cashybrid or any of the other bots really
18:57:33 <elliott> actually he's not going as fast as usual right now but "only a matter of time"
18:57:39 <elliott> monqy: wait, when did I say it was impressive
18:57:50 <ion> Ok, watching.
18:57:58 <elliott> it's not impressive, it's just impressively idiotic
18:58:29 <ion> Is that a lua script you’re using?
18:58:40 <elliott> he has autoexplore and an autofight script he wrote both on spcaebar
18:59:07 <elliott> oh no, not a quarterstaff of chaos
18:59:19 <ion> monqy: Do you happen to have a URL to your crawl config? I’m lazy.
18:59:47 <elliott> i think the ##crawl bots can generate those
19:00:35 <ais523> elliott: he's squarelos on nethack4.org, too :)
19:00:48 <elliott> I know he is, I watched him play his single NetHack 4 game :p
19:00:49 <ais523> bleh, the bots only do CAO RC files
19:00:57 <ais523> monqy: what did you think of nh4?
19:01:11 <monqy> it was unplayably laggy for me
19:01:14 <elliott> ais523: i quote, "nethack is weird"
19:01:30 <monqy> nethack is weirder
19:01:31 <elliott> ion: http://crawl.develz.org/configs/trunk/squarelos.rc
19:01:32 <ais523> I bet it's a matter of what you're used to
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19:01:34 <Ngevd> I'm on the wrong OS to play df
19:01:35 <elliott> ais523: http://crawl.develz.org/configs/trunk/squarelos.rc
19:01:45 <Ngevd> In a text-based medium
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19:02:17 <Ngevd> I could theoretically get a webcam-desktop-y thing and figure out my Livestream password
19:02:23 <elliott> we're watching squarelos tho
19:02:40 <elliott> ais523: ion: the actual thing is after "AUTOWHATEVER"
19:02:58 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:03:06 <monqy> i havent given much effort to it
19:03:11 <elliott> # OF ALL COOL MONSTERS, I WANT ONLY THE COOLEST
19:03:15 <monqy> i probably will actually try and make it good over the summer
19:03:21 -!- Ngevd has joined.
19:03:22 <elliott> these comments do a good job of summarising my beliefs
19:03:40 <ais523> # MAP DELTAS TO HJKLYUBN BUT IN LOWERCASE
19:03:53 <ais523> I'd have written that comment in lowercase so I wouldn't need the "but in lowercase"
19:04:06 <elliott> i don't think ais523 appreciates the spirit of squarelos
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19:04:48 <ais523> no wonder the square los fork never really caught on, if squarelos is its biggest supporter
19:05:11 <elliott> i think squarelos is in "memorial" of squarelos instead
19:05:23 <ion> https://github.com/ion1/crawl-config/compare/master-base...master
19:06:11 <elliott> i always look away one second beforehand
19:06:14 <monqy> can't quaff curing because mumy
19:06:23 <monqy> maybe i should have jsut stayed still
19:06:50 * ais523 is upset at what the Crawl devteam did to mummies
19:07:06 <ais523> the original version of them was a race that was all-around weak but capable of grinding, so that people who liked grinding had something to play
19:07:09 <ais523> then they removed the grinding
19:07:16 <ais523> and now they're just a challenge race
19:07:32 <elliott> that sounds like an improvement to me
19:07:42 <elliott> ais523: please tell monqy to kill all the plants
19:07:49 <elliott> he's being horrible and leaving them
19:08:31 <nortti> pikhq: your bootstrap-linux looks awesome
19:08:31 <lambdabot> nortti: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:08:46 <lambdabot> elliott asked 24m 35s ago: What package manager?
19:09:18 <nortti> elliott: I head you wrote a simple package manager
19:09:36 <elliott> Where did you hear that? I mean, I have, sure.
19:09:44 <elliott> But I've written multiple things that could be classified as that.
19:09:47 <elliott> monqy: What are you doing walking around manually?
19:09:53 <ais523> meh, if it can't solve Sudoku, it's insufficiently good at resolving complex dependency issues
19:10:14 <elliott> monqy: I died a lot yesterday. :(
19:10:20 <elliott> I mean, aftery ou passed out.
19:10:56 <elliott> ais523: oh! I was going to ask you
19:11:07 <elliott> ais523: you know the TAEB blog? it's down, and the Wayback Machine doesn't have it
19:11:17 <elliott> do you have a copy (particularly of the Planar post), or can you ask sartak for a copy?
19:11:19 <ais523> elliott: I'm aware of that; however, someone found it
19:11:25 <ais523> I do have a copy of the Planar post
19:11:33 <elliott> hmm, where's the found version? or is it not anywhere?
19:11:40 <elliott> without the images is a shame
19:11:41 <nortti> elliott: from Phantom_Hoover. How can I link to a single post in a log
19:11:41 <ais523> the blog itself is up elsewhere, also minus the images
19:11:46 <ais523> I think I have the images saved separately, though
19:11:50 <ais523> now I just have to remember where it was
19:11:56 <elliott> nortti: click the space between the name and the time
19:12:16 <ais523> http://taeb-nethack.blogspot.de/
19:12:22 <ais523> thank you, browser history
19:13:04 <elliott> the lack of images is annoying
19:13:13 <ais523> oh, the video links aren't working either, because I deleted my youtube account
19:13:28 <elliott> ais523: could you try to dig up the images? it'd be nice to have a complete copy of that post (because I like it)
19:16:03 <nortti> elliott: I can't click between time and name on android browser or opera mini. Search musl on today's log and you should find it
19:16:09 <ais523> elliott: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/3.tgz
19:18:07 <elliott> it doesn't have tactical-planning.png
19:18:29 <ais523> elliott: that isn't the name of the file
19:18:35 <ais523> in the copy of the images I have
19:18:43 <elliott> it's the name used in the URL
19:18:44 <ais523> probably those are "tactics.png" and "strategy.png"
19:19:02 <ais523> you'll have to use a bit of imagination to work out which image goes where
19:19:43 <elliott> ais523: that post has no dependencies, right? ISTR a table of cost conversion things that isn't in this post, but I may be misremembering
19:19:51 <nortti> elliott: never mind. I was trying it with txt version codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-05-01#161409nortti
19:20:16 <elliott> Right, inst. That wasn't really a package manager.
19:20:25 <ais523> elliott: that's the only post I made for that blog
19:20:29 <elliott> But you could give it a URL and it would automatically build the program it links to.
19:20:30 <ais523> hmm, inst was a bit like aimake, wasn't it?
19:20:45 <ais523> except it relied on the thing it downloaded already having a build system of its own
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19:21:30 <elliott> ais523: OK, I'm going to upload a version of the post with images to esolangs.org.
19:21:47 <ais523> I guess nethack4.org would make more sense
19:21:56 <nortti> elliott: What other software that could be classified as package managers
19:22:14 <elliott> There was that thing I wrote for Kitten that was too underpowered to work.
19:24:52 <elliott> A Linux distro I almost wrote but then didn't.
19:24:59 <ais523> elliott: I recommend reading the post immediately before mine, btw, it's great (about the technical issues of knowing when you have a complete frame)
19:25:06 <elliott> ais523: yeah, I remember that one
19:25:13 <ais523> in which sorear found two bugs in BSD
19:26:14 <nortti> elliott: how was your package manager too uderpowered
19:26:36 <elliott> In the same way that cp does not make an adequate package manager.
19:26:55 <nortti> elliott: what features it had
19:26:59 <monqy> was your package manager cp
19:27:42 <monqy> cp with the side effect of incrementing cp
19:28:20 <nortti> cp with huge bloat over standard cp using object oriented paragdim
19:28:35 <ais523> and operator overloading!
19:29:20 <nortti> because everyone just loves that you can't tell what operator really does!
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19:32:00 <nortti> my package manager was for a pretty long time script that printed "Try compiling it yourself. I'l implement this if I feel like it."
19:32:19 <ais523> nortti: why would you even run it?
19:33:23 <nortti> ais523: In case my friends tried to install anything when using my computer
19:33:37 <ais523> nortti: but you didn't tell them your root password, did you?
19:34:08 <nortti> ais523: my system allowed installing to ~/bin
19:34:28 <nortti> ais523: of course I didn't
19:34:50 <ais523> well, most people wouldn't expect package managers to install there
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19:35:21 <nortti> ais523: it was on my system manual (5 lines of text)
19:37:36 <nortti> "you can install programs to ~/bin if you want to"
19:38:10 <ais523> I still don't get how they'd know what command to run
19:38:58 <nortti> ais523: apt-get was symlinked to it. All of my friends use *buntu or linux mint
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19:43:22 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
19:43:34 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: _ about acro aol austro bc bct bf2c bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes cat chaos chiqrsx9p choo cmd cpick ctcp dc decide drawl drome dubya echo ehird elmer fudd glogbot_ignore google graph hello helloworld id inc insanetemp jethro kraut lperl lsh map monqy num numberwang ook pansy pi pikhq ping pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler prefixes python python2 redneck reverse rimshot rot13 rot47 ruby_ sadbf sanetemp sfedeesh sff
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19:45:09 <EgoBot> Interpreter _ deleted.
19:46:03 <monqy> is !bypass_ignore a botloop thing
19:46:33 <oerjan> no, it's for bypassing /ignore :P
19:47:23 <monqy> oh that makes more sense
19:50:16 <nortti> "Gasoline makes our cars run and our
19:50:58 <nortti> "Gasoline makes our cars run and our Molotov cocktails burn. And depending on how much you drive, or how much you fight The Man each week, gasoline may very well be one of the biggest expenses you have. "
19:52:36 * oerjan checks whether the wiki has been locked or something :P
19:54:09 <oerjan> because there have been no changes in about 2 days
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19:55:26 <nortti> you're righ. Interesting
19:56:01 <elliott> i locked the wiki and deleted all pages and disabled oerjan's account and then graffitied a church
19:56:08 <elliott> then blew up the government
19:56:09 * oerjan considers taking that as a hint to change the topic, but reconsiders.
19:56:18 <oerjan> elliott: all in a good day's work?
19:56:37 <elliott> yes tomorrow i'm going to free all prisoners and destroy moon
19:56:47 <elliott> can't destroy moon of course, that's impossible
19:57:05 <elliott> ion: Weren't you playing Crawl?
19:57:13 <oerjan> alexander abian will finally be vindicated!
19:57:30 <elliott> oerjan: anyway, the real reason there have been no edits is because there is no quality any more
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19:57:38 <ion> elliott: In a moment.
19:58:55 <ion> Namely, now.
19:59:18 <oerjan> "Refutations were given toward that idea by NASA saying that part of the exploded Moon would come back as a meteorite impacting the Earth and causing sufficient damage to extinguish all life, while restoring the seasons in the process."
20:00:10 <elliott> ion: your terminal is still the wrong size tho
20:00:47 <oerjan> exploding the moon: not as good as you'd think?
20:00:47 <elliott> "Abian gained a degree of international notoriety for his claim that blowing up the Moon would solve virtually every problem of human existence." good
20:01:04 <ion> I don’t want a smaller field of vision just because Crawl’s software architecture sucks.
20:01:34 <oerjan> or just NASA propaganda to protect their secret moon base?
20:01:46 <elliott> monqy: please edcuate ion on not being a terrible person :(
20:02:04 <monqy> ion: "hugeterm is sinful" - everyone
20:02:11 <monqy> ion: do you want to be sinre
20:02:23 <ion> monqy: Mr. everyone’s free to contribute a patch to fix Crawl.
20:02:24 <elliott> ion: nobody will ever play your replays on tv!!
20:02:32 <ion> Good, they suck anyway.
20:02:41 <elliott> yeah because you suck (because you use a big terminal)
20:02:47 * oerjan notes that abian has been dead since 1999, and feels old for remembering him.
20:03:13 <elliott> i dont actually care about
20:04:15 <monqy> do you use underlines for unaware or something?
20:05:13 <elliott> oh i thought it was just a stack of hounds
20:07:48 <elliott> monqy: oh yeah felids are fast right
20:08:06 <elliott> winning feck of chei continues to be my ultimate goal
20:08:12 <monqy> chei will slow you
20:11:20 <ais523> haha, the aptitude sudoku solver actually lead to improvements to aptitude
20:16:26 <nortti> elliott: how was your cp++ different from standard cp
20:17:44 <nortti> elliott: so it just copied files from place a to place b
20:18:24 <elliott> ion: phantoms are fun, aren't they?
20:20:08 <ion> Almost as fun as imps.
20:20:48 <elliott> monqy: who are we and why are we stalking him
20:21:05 <elliott> oh i guess i should ask squarelos instead
20:21:15 <elliott> btw i originally thought "squarelos" was derived form "squirrel" somehow
20:21:40 <monqy> squirrelos is good
20:21:58 <elliott> it's where the los is in the shame of a squirrel's silhouette
20:26:02 <elliott> ion: What does that macro do?
20:26:13 <ion> Searches for corpses i can eat/offer to Trog.
20:26:18 <ion> In case i missed one
20:26:37 <ion> Ooh, this is an awesome entrance with the c.
20:27:23 <elliott> monqy must be proud of you.
20:27:42 <ion> I wonder whether to go through an escape hatch
20:28:04 <monqy> im not proud of disto unless you're wielding it
20:28:20 <elliott> Oh, he just has it quivered.
20:29:01 <elliott> ion: You'll die soon, might as well enjoy the remaining time!
20:29:31 <elliott> Wait, can octopodes wield?
20:30:00 <elliott> Wait, what's the difference between an octopode and an octopus?
20:30:44 <elliott> So you're a set of creatures?
20:33:09 <ion> If i say you’re a humanoid, are you a set of creatures?
20:34:31 <elliott> I just don't think "humanoid" is a very descriptive species name, that's all. :p
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20:39:51 <ais523> OK, so here's a puzzle for people: what is nocookie.net?
20:40:10 <ais523> visiting it directly just gives a fake error message, and a bunch of analytics scripts that noscript blocks
20:40:41 <ais523> and it seems to be linked to wikia in some bizarre way, according to search results on the name
20:40:47 <elliott> doesn't necessarily look fake to me
20:40:55 <elliott> i can imagine a webserver serving that page for a Host header line it isn't configured to serve
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20:57:27 <nortti> "Have you heard of the Internet , you colossal dinks? Little demons packing up electric O's and I's, and giving them to tiny robots to carry long tubes? (I think that's how it goes; I refused to buy the TCP/IP text during my undergrad.)"
20:58:22 <ais523> nortti: actually it's a big truck
20:58:34 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:58:45 <nortti> That speech was hilarious
20:59:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I see that elliott has sent me a message regarding that lesser-known proto-esolang, FALSE.
21:00:33 <Phantom_Hoover> It's proto like INTERCAL is, in that it was an esolang before anyone cared to classify esolangs as a thing
21:01:51 <nortti> is P" also a proto-esolang
21:01:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I guess it's just one of the 3 founding esolangs, then.
21:07:32 <elliott> ion: WHY AREN'T MY MESSAGES COMING THROUGH
21:07:58 <elliott> More like BObjective FLOLCODE.
21:08:27 <TeruFSX> befunge always felt suprisingly sane to me
21:08:30 <ion> elliott: They are. :-P
21:08:56 <Phantom_Hoover> TeruFSX, yeah, but that's just because at the time 2D and stack-based were esoteric :P
21:09:20 <elliott> FALSE and Befunge are surprisingly usable, really.
21:09:28 <elliott> brainfuck was the first tarpit.
21:10:07 <elliott> I wonder what Perlis was referring to by Turing tar-pit?
21:10:15 <elliott> i.e. what examples he had in mind. It was the 80s, after all.
21:10:25 <elliott> Maybe I'll ask— oh, he's dead.
21:12:30 <TeruFSX> a language so universal and powerful it can't really be used?
21:12:33 <elliott> Assembly language is... not a Turing tarpit.
21:12:43 <elliott> For a start, most architectures aren't Turing complete.
21:12:48 <TeruFSX> but maybe that's what Perlis was getting at
21:13:09 <elliott> I suppose so, but if so it's a rather different meaning than is now generally used.
21:13:14 <elliott> I guess it's unlikely he knew about P''.
21:13:23 <elliott> But Turing machines were certainly around in the 80s. :p
21:13:33 <TeruFSX> is there any references to a Turing tar-pit before then?
21:13:41 <TeruFSX> the word was coined from that quote, I though
21:15:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> I wonder what Perlis was referring to by Turing tar-pit?
21:15:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> i.e. what examples he had in mind. It was the 80s, after all.
21:15:38 <Phantom_Hoover> ISTR that it was in reference to some trends in computer science in the 60s.
21:16:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Where everyone thought that the key to understanding computation was getting the simplest systems of a given computational class.
21:16:17 <kmc> the early days of theoretical CS were a golden age for esolang design
21:16:27 <kmc> design an esolang, prove it's Turing complete, collect PhD
21:16:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Thus resulting in extremely compact but obtuse systems, i.e. Turing tarpits.
21:16:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Then Wolfram revived that school of thought!
21:17:15 <pikhq> And declared himself a New Kind of Scientist.
21:17:33 <elliott> The 523rd Alex Smith to ever exist, and the most: EVIL.
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21:22:06 <ion> Re: Crawl, https://github.com/ion1/crawl-config/compare/master-base...master
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21:52:22 <elliott> ais523: can you dig esolangs.org?
21:53:47 <ais523> esolangs.org.86400INA178.79.159.81
21:54:25 <elliott> ais523: What nameserver does it use?
21:54:55 <ais523> elliott: 4.2.2.1, I think
21:55:03 <elliott> ais523: not what i meant :)
21:55:07 <ais523> oh, esolangs.org? there isn't an authority section
21:55:18 <ion> elliott: YASD.
21:55:33 <kmc> can you dig it man
21:55:37 <elliott> ais523: I suspect you're just not giving dig the right options to see it
21:55:47 <ais523> elliott: it normally shows it by default
21:55:53 <ais523> in fact, there's a specific "authority: 0"
21:56:00 <ais523> so I guess it's a cached value from nowhere in paritcular
21:56:11 <ion> elliott: cccc and not reading a scroll of teleportation quickly enough.
21:56:45 <ion> elliott: Where was the TV again? I thought termcast.org, but i don’t see anything that looks like a Crawl session.
21:57:31 <elliott> Actually, if it's on TV then everyone will see all my stupid banter.
21:57:36 <elliott> I guess we'll just never know.
22:02:12 <elliott> ion: Hey, I want to play Crawl.
22:02:22 <ion> Don’t do iiitt!
22:02:26 <elliott> Should I go for DsAK, GhMo, or SpAs?
22:02:43 <monqy> "whatever you feel like"
22:03:09 <elliott> monqy: I asked ion, not you. :(
22:03:20 <ion> I’ll donate some urine, get some snacks and then watch.
22:03:46 <ion> elliott: Do whatever you want. I’ve been meaning to try DS at some point, too. :-P
22:03:49 <elliott> (I got annoyed with DsAK because I hate Crawl's hunger mechanism.)
22:04:01 <ion> Hmm. Is Ds ≠ DS?
22:04:09 <monqy> Ds is DS after the change
22:04:11 <elliott> I'm not sure which abbreviation is canonical.
22:04:19 <ion> monqy: Oh.
22:04:20 <monqy> it used to be DS then it got changed to Ds
22:04:28 <monqy> elliott: that's why it was changed
22:04:50 <elliott> I'll play a few games of SpAs first, since I die quickly that way.
22:05:03 <ion> SpEn is nice.
22:06:01 <monqy> is spen any good for diving?
22:07:17 <elliott> I have my own monster fan club already.
22:10:20 <ion> monqy: Almost certainly not. OTOH, i’d suck at diving with any character.
22:11:01 <elliott> Nice, manage to escape Grinder then die to a scorpion.
22:11:10 <monqy> you shouldn't have meleed it
22:11:23 <elliott> If I ran away I'd probably have run into ol' Grinder again, though.
22:11:26 <elliott> Well, let's try that again.
22:11:30 <monqy> you could have blowguned it
22:11:35 <monqy> scorps are weak to poison
22:12:30 <elliott> Once more and then I'll play something less silly.
22:12:43 <ion> Good idea: fight Sigmund at XL 1.
22:13:18 <ion> And you still had stabbing at whatever it starts at. :-P
22:14:27 <elliott> Where is that bloody downstairs...
22:17:35 <Phantom_Hoover> So yesterday Bethesda posted on their Twitter that they'd release information about the upcoming DLC today.
22:18:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Today they posted on their blog the title of the DLC, a generic poster and that they'd give more details at E3.
22:22:52 <ion> You stopped already? :-(
22:23:45 <elliott> I'm deciding DsAK vs. GhMo for my non-silly game.
22:24:30 <elliott> monqy: Is Spriggan Preist terrible? I just accidentally selected it :D
22:29:08 <ion> To be able to handle a flood of new followers.
22:31:29 <elliott> Is Terence scary? I forget.
22:31:41 <ion> Not too scary IIRC
22:34:01 <elliott> monqy: Does sustenance do anything to ghouls?
22:34:12 <ion> See if d, drops it.
22:35:05 <elliott> Unfortunately I like my scrolls of random uselessness.
22:36:36 <ion> Normal IIRC
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22:38:56 <ion> Hmm. Can you find the temple with ^Fecumenical? In any case, ^G will show if you’ve seen the entrance.
22:39:17 <elliott> ion: Yes, ^Fecumenical works, because it's the "entrance to the Ecumenical Temple".
22:39:35 <ion> Yeah, i was wondering whether ^F sees such things or now.
22:41:33 <ion> Este amuleto protege a su portador de algunas formas de confusión mental, incluyendo la furia involuntaria.
22:41:43 <ion> You should play crawl in some language you don’t know.
22:42:21 <ion> book of beasts
22:42:23 <ion> Un libro con hechizos mágicos. ¡Ten cuidado, no vaya a ser que te muerda!
22:42:38 <ion> La peau d'un animal.
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22:58:28 <ion> elliott: Y U NO PLAY?
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23:01:59 <TeruFSX> jeez, split hit a lot of people here too
23:02:22 <elliott> monqy: What's warding? Henzell isn't working for me.
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23:02:46 * elliott wonders how you're meant to reach that pet rock store.
23:02:47 <monqy> warding makes melee attacks from summoned stuff fail sometimes, and also gives you rN+ unless that changed
23:03:07 <elliott> From other people's summoned stuff.
23:03:11 <elliott> Okay, that sounds less useless.
23:03:34 <monqy> I think you were supposed to use the boring beetle
23:03:41 <monqy> to get through the walls
23:04:07 <elliott> They give you a dangerous monster just to let you get into their pet rock store?
23:04:27 <ion> You could hit the wall really hard.
23:11:03 <elliott> ion: You should, like, fish me out of this mess.
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23:15:32 <ion> Convince the jelly, the frog and the orc to join your side.
23:16:08 <elliott> I wanted to id those potions but: no scrolls.
23:16:08 <monqy> lots of unidentified stuff I see
23:16:22 <elliott> And that's kind of useless with the failure rate.
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23:16:44 <monqy> quaffid is less dangerous on ghouls than most races since potions of mutation don't really hurt you
23:16:55 <monqy> nor do potions of decay
23:17:06 <monqy> and wasting cure mut is a non concern
23:17:26 <monqy> (since you don;'t get muts)
23:17:58 <ion> What potions have you not identified yet?
23:18:01 <elliott> There's four potions with 2; at most two are going to be what I want.
23:18:10 <elliott> ion: I forget how to tell.
23:18:33 <ion> Toggle with -
23:18:45 <elliott> I don't recognise any potions.
23:18:47 <elliott> So that would just list every potion.
23:20:08 <elliott> monqy: Oh, and I'm on a downstairs.
23:20:14 <elliott> I lured these guys upstairs. It wasn't my proudest moment.
23:20:31 <elliott> What's downstairs is more orcs, mostly.
23:21:03 <monqy> what else can you do
23:21:04 <elliott> I went down from 50-something HP to like 10 in one turn.
23:21:06 <monqy> the jelly is almost dead
23:21:08 <elliott> I have another potion of curing.
23:21:12 <monqy> was that from ascending the stairs
23:21:17 <monqy> (stair ascent takes a long time)
23:21:22 <monqy> and you can't dodge
23:21:45 <elliott> Depends what you mean by weak
23:21:45 <monqy> i dont know this character
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23:22:31 <elliott> That was a sincere question.
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23:26:04 <elliott> Nothing happened since last time, dude.
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23:26:11 <monqy> squishy and low damage output
23:26:24 <monqy> if you took all that damamge and couldn't kill the jello
23:26:45 <monqy> but maybe you just got unlucky or i underestimated the orc or something
23:26:46 <elliott> "im not too bad at unarmed combat i guess"
23:27:36 <monqy> you don';t look okay
23:27:43 <monqy> 8 ac or what-have-you isn't very much
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23:33:19 <elliott> i'm inevitably going to die quickly so i don't get the chance to benefit from all this loot
23:33:56 <elliott> I didn't expect it to follow me to the stairs. :(
23:36:41 <elliott> Time for another depressing march into inevitable doom.
23:36:51 <ion> Elliott's ghost (average Spriggan Assassin) comes into view.
23:37:40 <ion> For bersercques and the starting stats.
23:39:16 <kmc> doooooooooooom
23:39:37 <elliott> kmc: You should watch me play Crawl. It's a balst.
23:39:48 <elliott> Also a blast. But mostly a balst.
23:40:00 <ion> A balst indeed.
23:40:33 <elliott> Yes, I admit, I googled the full name.
23:41:02 <elliott> I forget if rCorr is worthwhile.
23:43:15 <ion> G - a ring of the Octopus King (left hand) {tried, AC+1 EV+1 Str+1 Dex+1 Int+1}
23:43:28 <ion> elliott: It is if you ever melée jellies. :-)
23:44:00 <elliott> Guess who has teleportitis!
23:44:07 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:44:13 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:44:46 <shachaf> elliott: Did you eat a leprechaun/nymph/tengu corpse?!
23:47:24 <elliott> Not a scroll of teleportation!!!! NOOOO
23:47:44 <ion> Has the potion of heal wounds been nerfed in the last six months?
23:48:10 <elliott> Ask monqy; I only started playing 10 days ago.
23:49:48 <kmc> is that like summoning sickness
23:50:13 <elliott> Teleportitis is where you teleport randomly every now and then.
23:50:57 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:51:00 -!- fizziew has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:51:05 <shachaf> kmc: You should play NetHack! (You shouldn't play NetHack.)
23:53:58 -!- fizziew has joined.
23:56:08 <elliott> ion: Help, I've had teleportitis for like a billion turns now. :(
23:56:33 <shachaf> > how many turns is a billion
23:56:55 <ion> elliott: Get a potion of cure mutation!
23:57:10 -!- lambdabot has joined.
23:57:25 <shachaf> Get a potion of cure cursed ring!
23:57:25 <ion> Get a scroll of remove curse.
23:57:34 <elliott> I've id'd about 5 scrolls.
23:57:36 <elliott> None of them are remove curse. :(
23:58:18 <ion> An iguana, a hippogriff, a giant frog, a jelly, an orc warrior and 2 small zombies come into view.
23:58:39 <ion> k A manticore and a hill giant come into view.
00:01:54 <elliott> monqy: Is an ancient robe worth trying on?
00:02:36 <ion> For a heavy armor guy, i’d try it out of curiosity (have a scroll of remove curse or read detect curse first). For a robe guy, definitely.
00:02:44 <shachaf> You might want to wash it first.
00:03:15 <ion> shachaf: elliott likes other people’s clothes unwashed.
00:03:30 <elliott> You finish putting on the cursed -1 robe of Folly {-Cast Int-5 Curse}.
00:03:30 <elliott> Oops, that feels deathly cold.
00:03:49 <elliott> This will go well with my cursed ring of teleportation.
00:04:02 <ion> Remember what i said about having a scroll of remove curse?
00:04:04 <shachaf> elliott: id yoha ve emove curse?
00:04:08 -!- elliott has left.
00:04:25 <shachaf> I think elliott is trying to teach me not to do that.
00:05:03 <ion> You could ssh to the crawl server and ask him that in game.
00:05:32 -!- elliott has joined.
00:05:33 <shachaf> He doesn't answer my Cruestions.
00:05:38 <elliott> ion: Take a glance at my game.
00:05:50 <ion> elliott: nice
00:06:03 <shachaf> Are you fighting Pistachio?
00:06:27 <shachaf> That was a tough nut to crack, eh?
00:07:03 <shachaf> I guess you had to draw him out of his shell first.
00:07:41 <shachaf> (not good at pistachio puns, please send help)
00:07:57 <elliott> 01:07 <Henzell> eustachio[3/3]: Beware his glorious mustache! Not to be confused with pistachio.
00:16:07 <kmc> it occurs that https://github.com/kmcallister/qoppa is kind of an esolang and so i should mention it here
00:20:51 <elliott> Thank you for your minimal contribution to the channel!
00:21:11 <elliott> Oh, we have another new member of the wiki who doesn't know how to use preview.
00:21:25 <elliott> And they made a brainfuck derivative.
00:21:27 <ion> It occurs that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language is kind of an esolang and so i should mention it here
00:21:45 <elliott> "The language utilizes cellular automation" It... does?
00:22:08 <elliott> "The language utilizes a cellular automation. The automation evolves in a data structure known as the Nevermore, hence, the language's name. The structure is a bit array of length 8 with an initial value set to 0 [0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0]."
00:22:10 <elliott> I think we're being trolled.
00:22:23 <shachaf> ion: [[Finnish language]] is too eso for my taste. :-(
00:23:55 <elliott> If anyone wants to go on a ride, start at http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Nevermore&diff=next&oldid=32178 and keep hitting "newer edit".
00:26:17 <elliott> kmc: You realise Scheme has functions to support alist munging ,right?
00:26:25 <elliott> bind could be a lot simpler (although you'd need to change (var binding) to (var . binding)).
00:34:54 <ion> elliott: I entered the Lair, but i think i’ll stop for now.
00:35:15 <kmc> i did not realize that
00:35:20 <kmc> which functions?
00:35:33 <elliott> kmc: I'm not sure which one I was thinking of looking at bind.
00:35:39 <elliott> kmc: But it definitely has an insert-into-alist function.
00:36:06 -!- Patashu has joined.
00:37:38 * elliott started to play but then immediately quit.
00:37:42 <ion> It is a [[brainfuck]] derivative designed to be as difficult and obscure to program in.
00:37:46 <ion> You accidentally the comparison.
00:46:34 <ion> <…> so given that this is math 12, does it need to be conanical form?
00:46:36 <ion> <ion> O’Brien?
00:50:21 <shachaf> ion: That's a fancy '\'' you've got there.
00:50:45 <shachaf> Nonsense. We speak ASCII in here.
00:50:57 <shachaf> O'Brien was clearly the best person in _1984_. He knew what was up.
00:51:45 <elliott> kmc: "So apply takes the uglier approach of quoting each argument to prevent double-evaluation."
00:51:46 <ion> Given that this is #esoteric, shouldn’t we speak something like EBCDIC here?
00:51:52 <elliott> kmc: FWIW, I think the solution to this is to simply drop apply.
00:52:02 <elliott> It's not a very meaningful operation on operatives.
00:52:55 <elliott> Oh, by the way, if anyone wants to read ais523's post on the Planar NetHack AI with the pictures, it's up at http://esolangs.org/planar/.
00:53:04 <elliott> Long-term validity of URL not guaranteed.
00:53:35 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Tue May 1 17:53:34 2012
00:53:35 <kmc> elliott: well, can you get rid of 'apply' in the interpreter?
00:53:38 <kmc> without nastiness?
00:53:46 <elliott> kmc: Probably. I'd have to see where it's used. Was that in the post?
00:53:51 <kmc> i agree it's not meaningful on operatives; my 'apply' will produce nonsense if you use it on a not-applicative
00:54:03 <elliott> If you're going for Scheme polyglotting, then yes, you'll need something silly like that.
00:54:10 <elliott> That's because Scheme doesn't use operatives :P
00:55:43 <kmc> i don't know if it quite counts as polyglot
00:55:50 <kmc> but yeah, that's almost the whole point of the article
00:56:06 <pikhq> Huh. Early OS X development releases were actually for the IBM PC.
00:56:18 * elliott would just write a metacircular evaluator and a separate Scheme interpreter.
00:56:21 <elliott> But that's no fun, I know.
00:56:45 <elliott> pikhq: This thing? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/IBM_PC_5150.jpg
00:57:23 <pikhq> elliott: No, the later 32-bit IBM compatibles. Obviously.
00:57:59 <pikhq> But there's no other damned way of referring to that hacked-up arch.
00:59:02 <elliott> The edits just keep coming in.
01:02:31 <Madoka-Kaname> ^ul (:(1)*(:(2)*(:(3)*(:(4)*(:(5)*(:(6)*(:(7)*(:(8)*(:(9)*(!~:^)))))))))):(:)!(~^~(~a~*~a~*)~a*^:(0)*)~a*~:(a(:^)*())~*a(:^)*~()~(0)((!^~)())(:)!((:(~:(,)*S~^!^)~a*^:^~!a~^*a*)~a*^:^):^
01:02:32 <fungot> 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597, ...out of time!
01:02:57 <Madoka-Kaname> ^ul (:(1)*(:(2)*(:(3)*(:(4)*(:(5)*(:(6)*(:(7)*(:(8)*(:(9)*(!~:^)))))))))):(~^~(~a~*~a~*)~a*^:(0)*)~a*~:(a(:^)*())~*a(:^)*~()~(0)((!^~)())((:(~:(,)*S~^!^)~a*^:^~!a~^*a*)~a*^:^):^
01:02:58 <fungot> 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597, ...out of time!
01:04:03 <kmc> elliott: well the claim is that you can start with a tiny fexpr language and produce something with enough syntax to be usable for 'real programming'
01:04:18 <kmc> (ignoring the LOLPARENTHESES crowd)
01:04:21 <elliott> You don't necessarily need to make your interpreter valid Scheme for that, though.
01:04:27 <kmc> it makes the claim stronger, though
01:04:50 * elliott wasn't dissing the article, just saying I'd drop apply were I making my own operative-based language.
01:05:00 <kmc> i didn't think you were dissing the article :)
01:05:21 <kmc> if i were making my own operative-based language i might suck it up and have primitive wrap/unwrap like Kernel
01:05:45 <kmc> but for the demonstration, that gets in the way of "omg eval is only three lines"
01:06:02 <elliott> I don't like wrap/unwrap at all. I'd rather build the evaluation logic into lambda.
01:07:10 <Sgeo> Lazy Newb Pack comes with alternate keybindings
01:07:26 <Sgeo> And other stuff that seems like it would be useful on more than just Windows
01:07:32 <Sgeo> monqy, for Dwarf Fortress
01:13:59 <elliott> Sgeo: ok by stock i mean "stock with dwarf therapist" but that's it
01:14:00 <Sgeo> elliott, I'll be fine with the guide on the wiki, right?
01:14:07 <elliott> yes, the wiki guide is good
01:14:21 <elliott> (and you won't need dwarf therapist until you get a bunch of dwarfs and need to futz about with micromanaging the labours)
01:14:44 <Sgeo> I don't wanna micromanage labour
01:14:58 <elliott> ("labour" is a technical term here)
01:15:07 <Sgeo> I know what it means
01:18:28 <Sgeo> Need to fix the sound
01:19:10 <kmc> your dwarfs are unionizing?
01:19:32 <elliott> could just play http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6FXeupOp04 in the background
01:19:34 <elliott> since that's the only sound
01:20:17 <Sgeo> elliott, YouTube is crap for me
01:20:46 <elliott> Sgeo: the mp3 or ogg or whatever file is in the game directory somewhere :P
01:20:59 <Sgeo> Hmm, that's fine
01:21:12 <Lumpio-> Wait, that music was actually in the game?
01:21:33 <elliott> Lumpio-: That's what plays constantly in a loop throughout a game of Dwarf Fortress in Fortress mode, yes.
01:22:06 <elliott> Are you implying you haven't played DF? :(
01:22:11 <Sgeo> Argh, what settings do I use to make DF be decently large?
01:22:21 <Sgeo> I know I've done it before
01:22:21 <elliott> Sgeo: You press the maximise button.
01:22:40 <elliott> If you mean font size, you probably don't want that any bigger, or it'll be difficult to see enough at once.
01:22:48 <Sgeo> I changed the WINDOWEDX and WINDOWEDY and curses thing
01:23:04 <elliott> Sgeo: What's wrong with maximise?
01:23:10 <Lumpio-> I watched somebody play it on youtube
01:23:28 <Sgeo> elliott, that I've done it before without maximize and maximize means harder to chat at the same time
01:23:40 <elliott> Lumpio-: It's not really as micromanagey as it looks.
01:23:44 <Sgeo> Also, I don't like smiley faces
01:23:47 <elliott> Some people play it like that but they're boring.
01:23:52 <Sgeo> Little smiley faces
01:23:58 <Lumpio-> Also the whole "view one horizontal level of the world at once" thing looks confusing as hell.
01:24:03 <elliott> Sgeo: You'll end up maximising it anyway. And they come as beards by default.
01:24:07 <Lumpio-> It would benefit from modern 3D graphics, at least above ground
01:24:15 <Lumpio-> But I bet they're too lazy to implement that.
01:24:17 <elliott> They say that about roguelikes.
01:24:32 <monqy> tbf df is uglier than roguelikes
01:24:35 <Sgeo> elliott, no they don't
01:24:36 <elliott> It's a deliberate design decision; Slaves to Armok: God of Blood (the game to which DF is a sequel) was 3D.
01:25:09 <elliott> Sgeo: If they don't, you've configured something brokenly.
01:25:19 <elliott> Are you running it with terminal output or something?
01:25:27 <Sgeo> elliott, I am not
01:25:56 <Sgeo> And it was the same when I installed via Lazy Newb Pack on a school computer with no graphics set
01:26:12 <elliott> Well, the default smilies do have beards. Admittedly it looks kinda like ":D" if you don't know they're beards.
01:26:15 <Sgeo> And it was the same when I played DF a long time ago and changed a configuration option to fix it
01:26:49 <elliott> Hmm, wait, that's how it looks in CP 437 too. Well, whatever, for the purposes of DF they're beards.
01:26:52 <ais523> hmm, anyone, perhaps Gregor, know of any good free MIDI desynthesizers?
01:26:57 <Sgeo> I should make the water levels show up
01:27:01 <ais523> as in, you put a .ogg or whatever in and get a .mid out
01:27:09 <ais523> there's one in the repositories here but it doesn't actually work
01:27:18 <ais523> elliott: that's pretty unlikely to work
01:27:23 <elliott> It'll work as well as anything else.
01:27:25 <elliott> Have you seen recent changes?
01:27:48 <ais523> and this should not be a massively hard problem, I've been considering writing one myself if there aren't any
01:28:04 <elliott> I recommend viewing them all in order for the best experience.
01:28:25 <elliott> (You have to set ?limit=100 to see all of them.)
01:28:47 <ais523> someone should tell them about the preview button
01:28:55 <ais523> my RSS feed bunched them into 7 changes
01:29:06 <ais523> the really hilarious thing is, I don't think they removed the BF instructions yet
01:29:30 <ais523> I guess I could just look at the page to make sure
01:29:36 <ais523> also, that language reminds me weirdly of Malbolge
01:30:10 <elliott> ais523: it's best to view the changes in order
01:30:29 <ais523> I can't tell at a glance whether it's harder or easier than Malbolge to program in, that's probably a good thing
01:30:30 <elliott> and ends up in weird half-way states along the way
01:30:36 <elliott> also, you know who gets to tell them about the preview button? :)
01:33:04 <ais523> <Slashdot> Xamarin has just announced that they got the Java part of Android ported to C# via machine translation.
01:33:10 <ais523> oh boy, the comments on that one are going to be great
01:33:26 <ais523> (it puts five different fanboy/troll factions in conflict)
01:33:54 <elliott> ais523: hey, what would happen if I pointed TAEB at a Crawl server?
01:34:13 <Sgeo> elliott, anything wrong with curses square?
01:34:24 <ais523> elliott: it /might/ manage to start a game, but it would error out as soon as the game started due to not being able to parse its stats
01:34:28 <elliott> Sgeo: square fonts are bad
01:34:32 <elliott> make text difficult to read
01:34:35 <ais523> and even then, you'd need to put the class/race in the RC file
01:34:52 <ais523> oh, hmm, that wouldn't work either, it'd just replace it with a NetHack RC file, which would cause Crawl to spew warnings
01:34:53 <elliott> ais523: can't I just make it assume things about the stats if it can't parse them? :)
01:34:57 <ais523> elliott: in short, go for it, it'll be hilarious
01:35:00 <ais523> and no, that's not how TAEB works
01:35:14 <ais523> I was working on my own Crawl bot using TAEB technologies, but didn't get very far
01:35:27 <ais523> due to problems trying to parse things like items; it was surprisingly hard to get it to chop and eat corpses
01:35:42 <elliott> how hard is it to get TAEB running?
01:35:55 <elliott> I'm a bit scared about all the dependencies, given that it's a bit bitrotten by now
01:36:16 <ais523> we fix the dependency bitrot every several months
01:36:29 <ais523> so the bitrot is rarely all that bad
01:36:38 <elliott> then why is the last repo commit a year old?
01:36:47 <ais523> last time we tried, it wouldn't run on my machine but would on other people's
01:36:53 <ais523> and wrong repo, I guess, are you taking it from my repo?
01:37:14 <ais523> https://gitorious.org/taeb/ais523
01:37:14 <elliott> (also, how long does it take to install all the deps?)
01:37:35 <ais523> maybe 20 minutes to half an hour, faster than that if you aren't on a netbok
01:37:53 <elliott> any known OS X–related problems?
01:37:56 <ais523> hmm, I should really put the dependency list in the repo
01:38:03 <ais523> elliott: it hasn't been tested on OS X for several years
01:38:24 <elliott> which of Planar and whatever the default AI is called are most likely to fail less :)
01:38:27 <elliott> or fail more entertainingly
01:39:27 <ais523> you should try to get Demo working first before doing anything else
01:39:39 <ais523> but TAEB won't reach the point the AI is called anyway, if you run it on a Crawl server
01:39:58 <elliott> bah, the time vs. fun assessment is rapidly going in the wrong direction :)
01:40:15 <elliott> you should write a nethack bot that can cope with absolutely any screen it gets
01:40:38 <ais523> the /correct/ behaviour upon encountering a screen never generated by NetHack is calling a human for help
01:41:05 <elliott> no, it's marching on cluelessly
01:41:12 <ion> elliott, ais523: Ooh, the NetHack AI is cool.
01:41:25 <elliott> ion: referring to the post I linked?
01:41:32 <ais523> ion: "the" is possibly a bad article; there are two major frameworks and three major AIs
01:41:55 <ion> http://esolangs.org/planar/
01:41:57 <monqy> have any of them won
01:42:05 <ais523> ion: TAEB::AI::PLanar is mine
01:42:09 <ais523> monqy: none of them have got near
01:42:17 <ion> I’d love to see a video capture of that in action.
01:42:31 <ais523> autorobin's got much further in Crawl than any of the NetHack AIs have in NetHack
01:42:35 <elliott> you could probably request one for one of the TVs
01:42:50 <ais523> monqy: the reason is that Crawl is a much more straightforward game than NetHack
01:42:55 <ais523> it's a lot more about not typoing than about actual thought
01:42:58 <elliott> NetHack has a lot more special cases than Crawl
01:42:59 <ais523> so it suits bots quite well
01:43:12 <elliott> and the kinds of spoilers it has are the kinds that bots can't learn, IMO
01:43:14 <ais523> also, Crawl has felids, and Trog
01:43:22 <monqy> ais523: is nethack about actual thought
01:43:32 <elliott> it's about looking up spoilers
01:43:38 <ais523> FeBe is a really really good combo for bots, because it's balanced and yet incapable of using most items and all spells
01:43:41 <elliott> Crawl is about looking up monster stats
01:43:43 <ais523> monqy: it is sometimes, but only if you play badly
01:43:45 <monqy> are any roguelikes about actual thought :(
01:44:17 <elliott> Dwarf Fortress is about dwarfs in a fortress
01:44:20 <elliott> robotfindskitten is about finding kitten
01:44:21 <ais523> elliott: ADOM is about crazy complicated triggers that have effects hundreds of thousands of turns later
01:44:40 <elliott> ADOM is about ancient domains of mystery
01:44:50 <ais523> Crawl needs monster spoilers or you die; ADOM needs plot spoilers or you find you've made the game effectively unwinnable a week later
01:44:55 <elliott> NetHack is about hacking the net
01:45:16 <ais523> no it isn't, that's Uplink
01:45:43 <ais523> hmm, so what I will do, is upgrade all relevant modules, just as I recently upgraded Perl
01:46:05 <ais523> and then bug #moose (or ##moose perhaps) for help, if I can't fix the obvious problems myself
01:46:08 <ais523> time for a bit derotting
01:46:18 <elliott> ais523: should I try and write a Crawl bot? (N.B. there's a fair chance that if I do this I'll never go back to playing Crawl normally, which I enjoy
01:46:25 <ais523> elliott: anyway, I just committed dependencies.sh
01:46:36 <ais523> I'd say get sick of Crawl first, /then/ write the bot
01:46:54 <ais523> I'll even lend you Brute's source code if you like, so you can skip the fiddly parts like dgl login
01:47:06 <elliott> ais523: I was going to do the Lua script thing
01:47:09 <elliott> since Crawl already has scripting hooks
01:47:22 <elliott> and then move to a standalone thing once it outgrows that
01:47:26 <ais523> they had to ban autorobin, eventually
01:47:36 <ais523> because it runs on the server, and it used 25% CPU
01:47:39 <ais523> elliott: kindly ask people to stop running it
01:47:57 <elliott> monqy: guess who's playing normal crawl
01:48:06 <Sgeo> elliott, where is SHOW_FLOW_AMOUNTS?
01:48:16 <elliott> Sgeo: dunno, but don't bother turning it on
01:48:41 <ais523> elliott: I don't know if elliptic's actually playing, it's a guess
01:48:49 <Sgeo> elliott, wait, what?
01:48:53 <monqy> elliptic isn't playing
01:48:54 <ais523> you implied that you were quite strongly, so it /wouldn't/ be a guess
01:49:07 <elliott> has ais523 seen me playing crawl
01:49:25 <elliott> oh boy, a cursed amulet that I don't know what it is is around my neck
01:49:32 <elliott> I'm sure it must be something really helpful
01:49:38 <monqy> why did you put it on
01:49:46 <elliott> i didn't know it was cursed
01:50:03 <monqy> amulets tend not to autoid
01:50:15 <elliott> you never know, it might be helping me
01:50:31 <monqy> and it probably woulnd'nt help you at this point eithr
01:50:35 <elliott> how much str for plate armour again
01:51:31 <elliott> maybe i should go light armour this time
01:52:25 <elliott> monqy: it was probably an amulet of get killed by terrence
01:52:34 <ais523> hmm, perhaps I should make another serious attempt to win Crawl, because I feel I can't insult it properly unless I've actually won it
01:52:42 <ais523> but I just know I'm going to end up hating it again
01:52:44 <ais523> more than usual, I mean
01:53:00 <elliott> I started playing so I could authoritatively dislike it
01:53:03 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
01:53:11 <ais523> elliott: it takes a while
01:53:19 <monqy> see my hate is justified because i've won
01:53:19 <elliott> that's still the plan, it's just that the dislike is going to be less than my baseline level of dislike for roguelikes
01:53:21 <elliott> which wasn't what i was expecting
01:53:26 <elliott> (note: that still doesn't mean i'll like it)
01:53:44 <elliott> it irritates me less than nethack when i die at least
01:53:56 -!- azaq23 has joined.
01:54:02 <ais523> it's the other way round for me, but possibly because I'm better at not dying in NetHack
01:54:15 <ais523> when I do die in NetHack, unless it's very early game it typically feels like my own fault, unlike in Crawl
01:54:25 -!- azaq23 has quit (Client Quit).
01:54:31 <elliott> well, 99.99% of all my roguelike deaths are YASDs
01:54:45 <elliott> but with nethack there's the spoiler element; with crawl it's my fault for blindly attacking $powerful_thing
01:54:52 <elliott> with nethack, it's "my fault" for not knowing $stupid_spoiler
01:55:05 <ais523> elliott: this is why #nethack exists
01:55:15 <elliott> they're both death-by-not-reading-spoilers, but NetHack's are more annoying
01:55:28 <elliott> ais523: I want to play a roguelike, not IRC :)
01:56:27 <elliott> "You could also have learned any of this by viewing the in-game item description."
01:56:32 <elliott> monqy: help, henzell is bullying me
01:58:25 <monqy> shachaf: what's the concern
01:58:45 <ais523> OK, you know what's annoying? when you see what seems like a meme in various places but it isn't on knowyourmeme.com and isn't turned up by a websearch on its name
01:59:07 <monqy> maybe it isn't a meme
01:59:22 <ais523> monqy: indeed, but in that case the coincidence is still annoying, and you still have no idea what people were referring to
01:59:25 <shachaf> The modern usage of the word "meme" on the Internet.
01:59:38 <shachaf> Whoever came up with that ought to be removed.
01:59:42 <Gregor> <ais523> hmm, anyone, perhaps Gregor, know of any good free MIDI desynthesizers? // define "desynthesizer"
01:59:48 <elliott> Gregor: he does so several lines later
01:59:54 <ais523> Gregor: something that takes synthesizer output and produces a MIDI file
01:59:59 <ais523> MIDI synthesizer output, that is
02:00:07 <ais523> i.e. the inverse operation of a MIDI synthesizer
02:00:25 <Gregor> No, all the ones I know of are truly awful.
02:00:39 <ais523> I thought that might be the answer
02:00:48 <elliott> ais523: why doesn't nethack have tab?
02:00:51 <ais523> can't be any worse than scolily, the only one in the repositories, unless they actually contain malware or the like
02:00:54 <Gregor> The fundamental problem is that distinguishing overtones from tones is infeasible, so you have a sensitivity parameter, and no sensitivity parameter ever works usefully.
02:01:10 <ais523> Gregor: oh, I came up with a cunning plan for that
02:01:20 <shachaf> elliott: NetHack has that key.
02:01:33 <elliott> Tryocmyol sounds like a medicine.
02:01:59 <ais523> lowest frequency must be a tone, then overtones are multiples of that, the nth overtone tends to have an amplitude of 1/n or less compared to the fundamental, if it's more than that you have another tone
02:02:09 <ais523> this doesn't work on pulsetrains, but who uses those?
02:02:38 <Gregor> ais523: I've used WAON (the site for which appears to have vanished), and would not recommend it.
02:02:45 <Gregor> Oh wait, http://waon.sourceforge.net/
02:02:57 <ais523> Gregor: does it produce nonempty output? that's the problem I was having with scolily, that it wouldn't produce anything but a blank file
02:03:07 <Gregor> lol, well, it produces a MID, yes.
02:03:21 <ais523> also, that it took input only from the microphone, which was annoying
02:03:25 <Gregor> waon has the lovely property that if you turn its sensitivity WAY down, you can produce a MIDI file from human speech that will render recognizable human speech.
02:03:36 <elliott> They should make all species hunger work like ghoul hunger in Crawl.
02:03:44 <ais523> I managed to figure out how to configure pulseaudio to copy the speaker output to the default input
02:03:51 <monqy> elliott: what about mummy hunger
02:03:57 <elliott> monqy: that can stay how it is
02:04:00 <shachaf> Hmm, tab moves toward and/or attacks a visible monster?
02:04:09 <ais523> although, it seems to also copy timing properties if you do that; if nothing's going to the speaker, anything trying to read from the microphone freezes, UNIX pipe style
02:04:27 <ais523> which is brilliant but not if you're scolily and add a 4 second countdown from the microphone's timing source for no god reason
02:05:40 <ais523> Gregor: wow, their Ubuntu package is built against /gutsy/
02:05:43 <ais523> I think I'm going to recompile :)
02:06:16 <elliott> brace for Gregor Debian superiority
02:06:45 <ais523> no package in precise, either
02:06:49 <Gregor> Which should mean that it's not worthwhile.
02:06:55 <ais523> but that's not surprising given that they're offering a gutsy package on their website
02:07:03 <ais523> Gregor: well I'm going to try it anyway
02:07:21 <ais523> hmm, a /really/ good desynthesizer could probably reverse-engineer the soundfont
02:07:40 <Gregor> I'm going to get it just to remake some voice->midi->voice stuff, which is fun X-D
02:08:19 <elliott> _d - a scroll labeled TWAT ERACAPAC
02:10:05 * ais523 wonders why fftw depends on openmpi
02:10:37 <elliott> ais523: hey, what god would you go with for GhMo?
02:10:58 <ais523> elliott: needs a combat-character-oriented god; trog is out for obvious reasons
02:10:58 <monqy> just play ghck, shachaf
02:11:09 <elliott> ais523: hmm, which obvious reasons?
02:11:11 <shachaf> monqy: help, what's a ghck
02:11:16 <ais523> elliott: undead can't berserk
02:11:34 <elliott> trog offers more than that, but ok :P
02:11:44 <ais523> yes, but it's a serious nerf to lose one of his main abilities
02:12:06 <ais523> makhleb would work; yred would work, if you prefer that playstyle, but is a bit more niche than makhleb
02:12:25 <ais523> lugonu would work but is hard to end up worshipping in the first place
02:12:33 <ion> elliott: I’ll play a bit of Lair.
02:12:49 <elliott> ion: watching (bigterm is still sinful)
02:12:56 <ais523> a lot of gods won't accept you (fedhas, tso, ely, zin, beogh), which makes things easier
02:12:59 <elliott> ais523: if I wanted lugonu I could have gone GhAK
02:13:04 <elliott> (which is fun to pronounce)
02:13:08 <monqy> if you want yred, just play ghdk; if you want lugonu, just play ghak
02:13:30 <monqy> and yred ally management is annoying
02:13:35 <ais523> monqy: picking up a god at temple is often a good idea even if they're a starting god, because then you get benefits from a different background
02:13:46 <Gregor> Trying to find the perfect soundfont to render this in X-D
02:13:48 <ais523> if you're planning to cast, you could go sif or veh
02:13:56 <ais523> but those are bad ideas if you aren't casting
02:14:08 <monqy> ais523: monk benefits "you get the piety you would have gotten if you had just started with the god"
02:14:28 <ais523> monqy: that's quite a recent addition, so I forgot about it
02:14:41 <ais523> do monks have a better starting inventory than death knights, etc?
02:14:52 <ais523> if so, that'd be a big reason for mo over dk
02:15:11 <monqy> monk inventory is pretty plain
02:15:23 <ais523> elliott: you could also go nemelex, who is broken for all characters but needs both a lot of spoilers and a lot of patience to use correctly
02:15:35 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/snd2mid2snd.ogg IT'S SO BEAUTIFUL
02:15:36 <elliott> monqy has told me about nemelex and now i never want to play nemelex
02:15:39 <ais523> unless they fixed that, in which case he's just bad as it was the main point
02:16:01 <ais523> not a lot of options not considered, at this point, given that I don't consider xom a serious choice
02:16:06 <elliott> Gregor: Can I have that in MP3?
02:16:10 <ais523> oh, does ashenzari still exist? you could do that
02:16:12 <elliott> I can't play oggs here. :(
02:16:17 <elliott> ais523: Ashenzari still exists, yes.
02:16:39 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/snd2mid2snd.mp3
02:16:41 <ais523> elliott: ashenzari is intended to be a low-maintenance god needing not a lot of concentration from the player
02:16:44 <Gregor> Firefox and Chrome both support ogg ;)
02:16:49 <elliott> (I theoretically have Perian installed, but it doesn't work.)
02:16:52 <ais523> not sure if they succeeded at that
02:17:10 <elliott> Gregor: Not sure what your definition of recognisable speech is X-D
02:17:20 <elliott> ais523: I ask because I went for Makhleb previously.
02:17:20 <ais523> kiku is a bad choice for a non-caster; and chei the devs can't decide how they actually want to work
02:17:23 <elliott> (On monqy's recommendation.)
02:17:26 <ais523> with the result that it changes a lot how he acts
02:17:36 <ais523> makhleb was a good recommendation, but I'd say go ash if you want a change
02:17:37 <elliott> Chei I can never take seriously because monqy laughed at it.
02:17:38 <Gregor> elliott: Recognizable /as/ speech.
02:18:11 <ais523> elliott: the problem with chei is that his fundamental idea is full of drawback, so they give amazing advantages to balance it out, and then nerf it whenever they look like they're actually helpful
02:18:12 <ais523> and this goes in cycles
02:18:34 <monqy> problem is the advantages aren't actually amazing, sorry chei
02:18:42 <ais523> monqy: they /used/ to be, remember the ubernaga thing?
02:18:55 <ais523> presumably he's in a nerf phase at the moment, based on what you're saying
02:19:06 <monqy> he hasn't really been buffed since then
02:19:28 <monqy> if you want more choices, there's okawaru, and uhh wow how am I forgetting everything
02:19:34 <Sgeo> monqy, elliott update
02:19:41 <ais523> oka's better for weapon-dependent characters
02:20:01 <monqy> ais523: how so? sure you get weapon gifts but
02:20:24 <ais523> monqy: and the other abilities are height and maste
02:20:33 <ais523> (used to be might and haste, but they mixed them up a bit)
02:20:34 <monqy> you mean heroism and finesse
02:20:53 <monqy> how do those work better for weapons than unarmed??
02:21:52 <ais523> finesse works badly on things with short delays, doesn't it?
02:23:04 <monqy> it halves attack delay. so minimum delay uc would go from what is it 5 to 3
02:23:27 <monqy> or maybe they use random rounding there now
02:23:40 <monqy> oh wait no they wouldn't since isn't 3 the hard cap
02:24:23 <ais523> monqy: it's the cap I was talking about
02:24:58 <monqy> anyway i don't see it as a significant deterrent from going oka on unarmed
02:25:10 <monqy> unarmed is stronger than most weapons anyway
02:25:18 <ais523> monqy: even with the aux nerfs?
02:25:26 <monqy> oh, they were nerfed recently?
02:25:46 <monqy> was it after being buffed
02:25:56 <ais523> oh, they were buffed again?
02:26:01 <ais523> I was talking about the nerf before that
02:26:09 <ais523> elliott: this is common with all sorts of things in Crawl
02:26:26 <ais523> heavy armour is the most famous, it was buffed and nerfed on alternate releases for five releases, possibly more
02:26:36 <ais523> meph is a bit of an exception, it only ever gets nerfed
02:26:59 <monqy> alternate releases?
02:27:32 <monqy> wasn't it nerfed in 0.6, buffed slightly in 0.7, buffed greatly in 0.8, maybe nerfed a bit in 0.9, i forget what happened in 0.10, 0.11
02:27:32 <ais523> monqy: nerf then buff then nerf then buff then…
02:27:45 <ais523> oh, perhaps I'm misremembering slightly
02:27:52 <monqy> i wasn't around for 0.5
02:27:59 <ais523> 0.5 it was easily the best build there
02:28:07 <monqy> yeah that's what I understand
02:28:09 <ais523> MDFi was the "win easily" combo recommended for beginners
02:28:14 <monqy> and it was a joke or something in 0.6
02:28:20 <elliott> ion: You can't say brb and then not tell me when you start again!
02:28:40 <ais523> elliott: /were/ you right back? if not, you were just disobeying his admonition and it was your fault!
02:28:46 <ion> elliott: “right” after i said it.
02:28:54 <ais523> if someone tells you to be right back, you should be right back!
02:29:00 <ion> Perhaps 5–10 10 seconds.
02:29:16 <ion> Err, more likely 10.
02:31:05 <ion> The time it took me to type ^SO/regeneration<enter>I#<escape>:wq<enter>p plus a few seconds of thinking time.
02:34:04 <elliott> 126 stones? That's a many stone.
02:34:16 <ion> You can have some of them.
02:35:44 <elliott> ais523: anyway, what do you mean Xom's not a serious option? :)
02:35:59 <ais523> elliott: his main purpose is to throw extra randomness into your game
02:36:06 <ais523> which in practice, means extra deaths
02:36:32 <ais523> xom helping you isn't very helpful as you can't rely on it, xom hurting you can be very hurtful as it can come at a time you really don't want it to
02:36:45 <elliott> monqy: listen to this boring dude
02:36:51 <Sgeo> Clearly, Xom best incorporates the DF motto
02:37:03 <elliott> nah, Xom is nothing like DF
02:37:12 <ais523> elliott: boring and serious are similar concepts
02:37:21 <Sgeo> Losing is Fun, I mean
02:37:22 <ais523> I said he wasn't serious; rather, he's the frivolous option
02:37:26 <ais523> so if you want frivolity, great
02:37:29 <elliott> with DF, it's the combination of a bunch of perfectly normal, logical, and measured aspects into a gigantic clusterfuck that kills you
02:37:37 <elliott> with Xom, it's just Xom that kills you
02:38:02 <ais523> Gregor: haha, wow waon is bad
02:38:06 <Sgeo> DF is a sequel?
02:38:18 <ais523> but it's /still/ not as bad as scolily
02:38:40 <elliott> Sgeo: The complete name of the game is Slaves to Armok: God of Blood, Chapter II: Dwarf Fortress.
02:38:47 <Sgeo> Where's Chapter I?
02:38:55 <Sgeo> ...or wait, were you joking
02:38:58 <elliott> That's Slaves to Armok: God of Blood; http://www.bay12games.com/armok/.
02:39:19 <elliott> There's an #esoteric log where fizzie quotes I-think-mooz talking about his experiences with it.
02:39:31 <elliott> It shares the "excruciating detail about the state your various body parts are in" aspect with DF.
02:39:36 <elliott> But it's a single-player 3D RPG-style thing.
02:40:20 <elliott> http://www.gamasutra.com/db_area/images/feature/3549/armokky.jpg
02:40:43 <elliott> More screenshots: http://www.bay12games.com/armok/ascreens.html
02:41:12 <elliott> Sgeo: In fact, Dwarf Fortress was a rather infamously vapourware sequel; it was announced in 2002 or so, and came out in 2006.
02:41:40 <elliott> (cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Millionth_topic_pool#Video_games)
02:41:40 <monqy> letting it sink in?
02:41:54 * elliott wonders what monqy is talking about.
02:42:00 <monqy> 19:41:30 < Sgeo> AFK
02:42:03 <ais523> Gregor: haha, WAON's output actually made timidity SIGABRT
02:42:39 <Gregor> ais523: Don't use timidity anyway, it is made of lame.
02:42:47 <monqy> ion: are you doing spiders
02:42:49 <Gregor> (Which is also lame, but in different ways)
02:42:57 <ais523> Gregor: waon's documented as a reverse of timidity
02:43:01 <ais523> so I'm round-tripping to see if it works
02:43:23 <Gregor> That is a rather silly way to document it X-D
02:43:46 <kmc> skeletonsskeletonsskeletons
02:45:28 * ais523 wonders what they test WAON on
02:45:37 <ais523> surely they've /noticed/ its output is unintelligible?
02:45:58 <ion> monqy: I think i’ll leave it for later. :-)
02:47:03 <ion> good point
02:47:15 <ion> ^rainbot ELIOT PRIDE
02:47:18 <ion> ^rainbow ELIOT PRIDE
02:47:20 <ais523> Gregor: btw, I just opened snd2mid2snd, you have a nicely musical voice
02:47:36 <ais523> can't make out what you're /saying/, though
02:48:58 <ais523> hmm, and I see what you mean about the competitors; one is commercial, runs only on Windows and Irix, and was last developed in 1998, and the other was hosted on geocities (and not archived by reocities)
02:49:08 <monqy> moral of the story with enough peer pressure nything is possible
02:49:22 <elliott> `addquote <monqy> moral of the story with enough peer pressure nything is possible
02:49:25 <HackEgo> 850) <monqy> moral of the story with enough peer pressure nything is possible
02:49:53 -!- coppro_ has changed nick to coppro.
02:50:27 <Gregor> elliott, ais523: You have to try to listen to the incidental sound instead of the primary sound, if you focus on the actual pizz then it's unrecognizable, but if you listen for the resultant reverb, the voice is more noticeable.
02:51:02 <elliott> It makes good avant garde music, though.
02:51:11 <elliott> You should get an orchestra to play it.
02:51:20 <ais523> so, hmm, I wonder what it sounds like if you just track the fundamental
02:51:27 <ais523> as in, the lowest significant frequency
02:51:38 <ais523> that couldn't possibly be confused by overtones, although it probably gets confused by something else, like beats
02:52:11 <ais523> likewise, simply taking the strongest frequency would probably get you one of the melody lines
02:54:31 <elliott> ais523: Tell ion to go back to spiders.
02:54:33 <ais523> this problem is hard, but it can't be as hard as some of the solutions people are indicating is implying
02:56:56 <elliott> monqy: Tell ion to go back to spiders. :(
02:57:22 <ion> You go to spiders.
02:57:35 <ion> You go to spiders.
02:57:36 <elliott> I'm nowhere near spiders. You are.
02:57:51 <monqy> elliott: when you find spiders, will you go to it?
02:57:56 <elliott> B - the -2 pair of boots of Xom's Pride {rElec Str+2} (3 aum)
02:58:35 <elliott> monqy: I might train up a bit first, though.
02:58:41 <elliott> ion: Will you go back to them *sometime*?
02:59:01 <elliott> 03:58 <Henzell> spider nest[2/5]: Gear checklist: most importantly: rPois and or potions of curing; clarity is a big help against tarantellas; some ranged attack is a big help against orb spiders; escape items of course; with rPois there are plenty of corpses to eat, else bring food.
03:00:52 <ion> I’m tempted to join Jiyva, but Trog would instakill me. :-(
03:00:58 <elliott> Then go into the slime pits.
03:01:10 <elliott> Oh, you just said you were tempted to.
03:01:15 <monqy> ion: instant retribution is gone
03:01:22 <ion> monqy: Oh?
03:01:33 <ion> What does Trog do then?
03:01:39 <monqy> waits before retributioning
03:01:56 <monqy> ion: "one way to find out"
03:02:09 <ais523> ion: he still instakills you, just a bit later
03:02:15 <ion> So instead of me knowing when he’ll attack it will be a surprise? That sounds much better.
03:02:29 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
03:02:32 <elliott> See, that sounds like fun.
03:02:39 <elliott> The jellies will protect you.
03:02:46 <Sgeo> Would reading a spellbook cause retribution, or just lost of piety, or what?
03:02:51 <elliott> 04:02 <Henzell> trog wrath[1/4]: ABANDONMENT: 50 penance RETRIBUTION: 50% summoning abjurable, but berserking hostiles from (iron troll, deep troll, rock troll, troll, black bear, grizzly bear, stone giant, hill giant, ogre, two-headed ogre); 33% weakening effect (decay, STR loss, paralysis, slowing); 16% fire miscast.
03:03:38 <elliott> I don't know, ion. You won't go into the Spider Nest, won't convert to Jiyva...
03:03:48 <ion> I can give you your money back.
03:03:51 <Sgeo> elliott, Xom is bored?
03:03:54 <monqy> which other lair branch did you get
03:04:19 <elliott> I don't like how ion can type ^O and I can't.
03:04:36 <ion> elliott: Remember what i said about Crawl’s architecture sucking?
03:04:43 -!- ais523 has quit.
03:04:45 <elliott> No, mine is terminal architecture.
03:04:56 <elliott> Now go to slime or spider or snake. Or convert to Jiyva.
03:05:22 <ion> I’m still considering Jiyva. Too bad i can’t abjure.
03:05:23 <monqy> since when is lair not the epitome of interesting? yaey, green rats
03:05:41 <ion> Porcupines also!
03:06:02 <elliott> I'll pay you WHOLE MONEYS to Jiyva.
03:07:25 <elliott> You can't quit just before something interesting happens.
03:07:37 <ion> I’m considering sleeping.
03:07:45 -!- ais523 has joined.
03:07:54 <lambdabot> Local time for ion is Wed May 2 06:07:54 2012
03:08:00 <monqy> elliott: flipsidely, now you can do something interesting
03:08:09 <elliott> monqy: Do I ever do anything interesting?
03:08:23 <ais523> just rebooted, timidity seemed to have got permanently screwed up in a way that survived me killing the process and restarting it
03:08:25 <ion> elliott is playing as elliptic
03:08:29 <ais523> but rebooting the computer worked
03:08:37 <elliott> ion: How did you discover my alt???
03:08:37 <ais523> thus, I suspect Pulse is at fault
03:09:08 <ion> /nick ellion
03:09:10 <ais523> elliptic is one of those people, like Adeon, that it's impossible for anyone else to convincingly pretend to be
03:09:38 <elliott> ais523: I'm good at convincingly pretending to people who can't be convincingly pretended to be!
03:09:53 <ion> It’s trivial to pretend to be elliott. Behold:
03:09:54 <monqy> can people convincingly pretend to be me
03:09:59 <ion> s p i d e r s
03:10:03 <ion> SSPPIIDDEERRSS
03:10:30 <ais523> OK, so let me read this android-ported-to-C# story on slashdot
03:10:43 <ais523> so many possible troll and fanboy angles, it'll be fun seeing which one comes up first
03:11:18 <elliott> monqy: is there a max xl in crawl
03:11:44 <ais523> <tvtropes> arc number </tvtropes>
03:12:19 <ais523> first comment was about oracle, figures
03:13:38 <coppro> ais523: what else is there 27 of?
03:13:39 <ais523> second thread was about Microsoft patents
03:13:48 <ais523> coppro: max skill levels, dungeon levels
03:13:54 <ais523> and they're aiming for 27 races, backgrounds, and gods
03:14:05 <ais523> (even though this is probably a bad idea!)
03:14:09 <elliott> but the races and backgrounds are selected by letters!
03:14:14 <elliott> they'll need to add another letter to the alphabet
03:14:32 <monqy> i thought the "aiming" was a joke
03:15:05 <ais523> elliott: capital A (they've gone over 26 backgrounds before now)
03:15:21 <elliott> background is the yy in xxyy right
03:17:07 <monqy> have you decided a god
03:17:13 <elliott> what does ashe give you again
03:17:15 <monqy> you can search for altar and stare at the list
03:17:22 <ais523> elliott: ashenzari gives information
03:17:26 <ais523> and likes you to wear cursed stuff
03:17:37 <elliott> "Likes when you wear cursed gear" what
03:18:02 <ion> elliott: Drink the potion of mutation.
03:18:09 <monqy> ashenzari's the god who nailed himself to the sky
03:18:19 <ion> Oh, crap. Your race is wrong. –ion, the racist
03:18:31 <ais523> wait, there's an argument over the pronunciation of "C#", I didn't expect /that/
03:18:37 <elliott> it doesn't do anything for me
03:18:40 <ais523> I forgot there were flame wars /within/ the communities too…
03:18:47 <ion> ais523: Haha
03:19:10 <elliott> monqy: ok you pick ashe or thingy
03:19:11 <ais523> this may be the first submission I've read for a while with /no/ insightful unpredictable comments
03:19:18 <monqy> elliott: whats thingy
03:19:24 <monqy> elliott: and which gods have you seeen
03:19:38 <elliott> i already narrowed them down before??
03:19:39 <monqy> elliott: ^Faltar since you can't ^O
03:19:44 <ion> # in Finnish is informally risuaita, which translates to stick fence.
03:19:48 <ion> C stick fence.
03:20:38 <elliott> the curse thing seems uhhh
03:20:41 <monqy> elliott: you can try all of them across different games
03:20:41 <ais523> <zill> What do you mean by "you have to run Windows underneath Linux anyway"?
03:20:43 <ion> Vacuuming the dungeon for Nemelex might be fun for a while.
03:21:00 <ais523> I'm going to call Poe's Law on that conversation, there is no other way to explain it in 2012
03:21:03 <monqy> elliott: flip a coin with as many sides as you require
03:21:13 <elliott> monqy: is the curse thing weird
03:21:31 <ais523> ooh, and now an anti-C# thread
03:21:32 <monqy> elliott: ashe was added only after I mostly stopped playing
03:21:42 <elliott> hmm, dpeg wrote the post announcing them
03:21:50 <elliott> dpeg is the one who kicked ais523 right
03:22:17 <ais523> (fun fact: I typoed "ye6s", then corrected it to "yes", then decided to put the original typo back in)
03:22:22 <ais523> (I do'nt know why, maybe I'm tired)
03:22:39 <elliott> monqy: which god you pick :'(
03:23:26 <monqy> 17:41:46 < elliptic> ghoul of chei is pretty good, yes
03:23:34 <ais523> oh, and more fun facts: Java is 1.5 times slower than C, and C# is 7 times faster than Java
03:23:37 <monqy> see, even elliptic approves of ghoul of chei
03:23:41 * ais523 has a feeling that these facts do not connect with each other well
03:23:54 <monqy> less than 3 hours ago
03:23:57 * ais523 suspects conveniently selected benchmarks
03:23:57 <monqy> surely his opinion hasn't changed
03:24:02 <ion> Chei can be fun for a while, too.
03:24:10 <ais523> elliott: there is at least a 40% chance elliptic was trolling when he said that
03:24:12 <elliott> ais523: please tell ajzaff about preview...
03:24:29 <elliott> monqy: come onnnn ashe or makh
03:24:38 <monqy> don't make me choose!!!!
03:24:50 <monqy> make someone else choose
03:25:02 <monqy> can i phone a friend
03:25:32 <elliott> monqy: the friend can't be an RNG though
03:25:54 <ais523> elliott: OK I told him
03:26:01 <ion> NASA really knows graphic design. Those images are so pretty. http://colorusage.arc.nasa.gov/bkg_1.php
03:26:06 <monqy> elliott: ashenzari
03:26:11 <ais523> you can phone me, and I'll say ash
03:26:15 <monqy> elliott: ashenzari
03:26:25 <elliott> monqy: ok fine butthat was totally cheating
03:26:56 <monqy> I almost asked "ashenzari or makhleb for ghmo of chei" then corrected it then almost uncorrected it
03:27:21 <elliott> appending "of chei" to anything makes it better
03:27:27 <elliott> so i don't sacrifice corpses for ashey?
03:27:47 <monqy> 20:26:42 < elliott> i regret this already
03:27:50 <elliott> i wonder if leather armour of magic resistance is better than a +0 robe
03:27:52 <monqy> next game go chei to cleanse your soul
03:28:23 <elliott> (by "i wonder if" i mean "hey monqy, is")
03:28:44 <monqy> are you going armoures or what
03:28:44 <ais523> elliott: I read that as "hey, monqy is"
03:28:47 <ais523> it makes the sentence better
03:28:56 <elliott> monqy: im not sure "maybe light armoure?"
03:28:56 <ais523> not the ping on me, the previous of your lines
03:29:05 <elliott> i don't know what the light armour progression is
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03:29:33 <monqy> "robe -> spells -> thanks for going light armoures"
03:29:39 <HackEgo> Reinu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
03:29:42 <elliott> monqy: not spells!! im not doing spells
03:29:47 <monqy> why not heavy it up!!!
03:29:50 <elliott> dragon plate things or something
03:29:56 <monqy> oh, medium armoures
03:29:56 <elliott> ok fine i'll heavy it up i hate this plate armour here but
03:30:05 <elliott> Reinu: also this channel isn't actually about crawl I just happen to be playing crawl sorry
03:30:12 <elliott> uhh by "i hate" i mean "i have"
03:30:21 <ais523> elliott: why not move the conversation to #nethack-offtopic?
03:30:32 <ais523> or, hmm, the -offtopic channel for some arbitrary large channel
03:30:40 <elliott> why not move it to #ubuntu?
03:30:49 <monqy> why not move it to ##crawl-dev
03:30:50 <ion> The -offtopic channel of #haskell-blah for instance.
03:31:01 <monqy> #haskell-blah-blah
03:31:18 <ion> No, #haskell
03:31:37 <kmc> the offtopic channel of #haskell is #esoteric
03:31:48 <ais523> kmc: that's surprisingly accurate sometimes
03:32:04 * ais523 checks if #esoteric-offtopic still exists
03:32:14 <Reinu> cool my nickname got a nickname
03:32:23 <elliott> monqy: does menkaure go upstairs?
03:32:36 <elliott> monqy: i mean, if it's not next to me
03:33:00 <ais523> hmm, this channel is currently silly and offtopic because the people in it are tired, rather than silly and offtopic because it's usually like that
03:33:29 <monqy> which channel is this again
03:33:33 <monqy> what's tired? not me
03:33:35 <elliott> this channel is always silly and offtopic
03:33:45 <elliott> _Ashenzari no longer supports your skills.
03:33:54 <monqy> you gain piety for exploreing
03:34:02 <Reinu> that's a good thing actually
03:34:09 <elliott> wow menkaure was a pushover
03:34:20 <monqy> welcome to ghmo "have a nice day"
03:34:26 <ais523> elliott: menkaure is like sigmund, a pushover except when he kills you at random
03:35:22 <ais523> Reinu: I'm normally happy to carry on an ontopic conversation if someone else starts it, though, as long as I can vaguely understand what it's about
03:35:46 <elliott> ais523 is the official defender of topicality
03:36:08 <elliott> sort of like being the official wedding priest at a satanist orgy
03:36:10 <Reinu> what is the oficial topic of this channel?
03:36:14 <ais523> esoteric programming languages
03:36:17 <elliott> 04:29 <HackEgo> Reinu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
03:36:45 <ais523> we finally discovered what the appropriate channel for the other sort of esotericisim was quite recently, after years of looking
03:36:54 <ais523> (so that we could send people who were in the wrong place there)
03:37:06 <Reinu> hahaha it seems i come in a good time
03:37:15 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
03:37:59 <ais523> hmm, clearly we need an esoterica-based esolang
03:38:07 <ais523> just to really confuse people as to which channel is which
03:38:48 <Reinu> weren't you looking the other channel to guide people there why would you like to confuse them now?
03:39:11 <elliott> we didn't look for it, someone else stumbled across it
03:39:23 <ais523> I think you help the newbies and confuse the regulars
03:39:31 <ais523> I'm a regular and I'm confused, that's a start
03:40:30 <elliott> ais523: meanwhile, john carmack answers a Stack Exchange question about a tweet he made
03:40:42 <ais523> was it a serious answer or a troll answer?
03:40:46 <ais523> it'd be awesome either way
03:40:48 <elliott> http://superuser.com/questions/419070/transatlantic-ping-faster-than-sending-a-pixel-to-the-screen
03:44:18 <ais523> serious answer for their audience, and trolling Sony a little
03:45:43 <elliott> monqy: 18 str for plate armour right
03:48:35 <elliott> heh, I don't autopickup remove curse any more
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03:51:26 <elliott> monqy: oh yeah, does ashe give me any abilities?
03:51:48 <monqy> scrying, reskilling
03:52:18 <elliott> OK, so nothing combat-wise
03:52:35 <elliott> hey, I could learn blink *and* mephitic cloud!
03:52:45 <monqy> blink isn't so bad
03:53:31 <monqy> controlled blink, however
03:53:36 <elliott> oh, isn't that what blink is?
03:53:58 <monqy> blink is more like lugonu's bend space
03:54:11 <monqy> but without hp loss etc etc
03:54:36 <ais523> blink has a random target
03:54:40 <ais523> which means it only saves you some of the time
03:54:43 <monqy> i have to be not here for a bit but i'll be back sometime
03:54:47 <elliott> ais523: you ruined monqy's haing!!!
03:54:49 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Tue May 1 20:54:48 2012
03:55:02 <ais523> elliott: so long as I don't ruin his hiing
03:55:33 <elliott> the fighting skill *does* give you HP, right?
03:56:09 <ais523> elliott: it used to; then they either changed it so that it was the only thing that mattered or so that it didn't matter, I can't remember which
03:56:24 <ais523> there was a huge debate about fighting being so much better than all the other skills
03:56:38 <ais523> and that reskilling was broken as a result because people would just dump everything into fighting
03:56:44 <ais523> but I can't remember how it was resolved
03:57:36 <elliott> woo, I have +2 plate armour
04:00:28 <elliott> monqy: gastronok is scary right
04:00:29 <elliott> 05:00 <Henzell> guru wisdom[3/24]: <monky> gastronok is like a titan but with less speed and lightning and more spammals
04:00:34 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy update bluh bluh
04:01:09 <elliott> ais523: I'm XL 9 and have chain mail, helmet, pair of boots, cloak, and unarmed combat at level 11.3
04:01:13 <elliott> should I run away from gastronok?
04:01:17 <elliott> there's a convenient upstairs
04:01:43 <ais523> if you can't kill him at range, and you probably can't
04:01:47 <elliott> should I bother closing the door on the way?
04:02:02 <ais523> it won't waste any time if you do
04:02:06 * ion opens eliot’s Crawl and sees Gastronok. Nice.
04:02:08 <ais523> you could probably even door-kite him, but that's ridiculous
04:02:18 <ais523> ion: "elliott" isn't spelt like that
04:02:34 <ion> eliot: How are you spelt?
04:02:36 <ais523> elliott: when you repeatedly close a door as a monster repeatedly tries to open it
04:02:53 <ais523> normally the monster wins due to speed randomization, but gastronok is pretty slow
04:02:56 <elliott> I'm just a bit worried that I'll run into him again when exploring the level
04:02:56 <ion> I don’t think that technique is reliable anymore since there’s some randomness in the movement times of characters.
04:03:02 <elliott> and it's far down enough taht I'd rather not just skip the level entirely
04:03:04 <ais523> hmm, now I have an urge to call an esolang "Elliot"
04:03:25 <ais523> gastronok's slow, you can just run away whenever he shows up
04:03:46 <elliott> OK, should I run away to the upstairs or just to another part of the level?
04:04:23 <ais523> I'd just go to another part of the level, but then I'm not very good at Crawl
04:04:31 <elliott> what would ion do? he's probably worse
04:04:31 <ais523> and don't normally run as far as I should
04:04:54 <elliott> never mind, I died to a centaur
04:05:02 <elliott> who gives those bastards that kind of gera?
04:06:15 <ais523> centaurs are a common monster to complain about
04:06:41 <ion> The next time don’t stay in the range where they can shoot stuff at you. If you can’t get outside that range quickly, melee them.
04:06:44 <ais523> the usual solution is to use spells (specifically, rmsl and later dmsl) in order to take the edge off centaur-type monsters, to the extent that they are arguably balanced against a player's missile repulsion
04:06:50 <ais523> and if you don't have the appropriate spells, sucks to be you
04:06:54 <elliott> ion: I was trying to get out of the way; and then trying to melee it
04:07:10 <ais523> it's not NetHack, you can't dodge projectiles by avoiding the compass directions
04:07:28 <elliott> ais523: I think they should just make them start appearing later, and keep the difficulty the same
04:07:36 <elliott> that way you'd have enough HP to offset their power
04:07:49 <ais523> HP doesn't work like that in Crawl
04:08:04 <ais523> in that monsters scale much faster than it does
04:08:39 <elliott> ion: Should I aplye again?
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04:13:31 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: about acro aol austro bc bct bf2c bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes cat chaos chiqrsx9p choo cmd cpick ctcp dc decide drawl drome dubya echo ehird elmer fudd glogbot_ignore google graph hello helloworld id inc insanetemp jethro kraut lperl lsh map monqy num numberwang ook pansy pi pikhq ping pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler prefixes python python2 redneck reverse rimshot rot13 rot47 ruby_ sadbf sanetemp sfedeesh sffed
04:14:59 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.30313: line 1: ruby: command not found
04:18:33 <ion> elliott: yes
04:20:49 <ion> Boots suck.
04:24:14 <elliott> Is +2 ring mail better than +0 scale mail?
04:24:22 <elliott> Scale mail being one better than ring mail in general.
04:24:34 <ion> Look at your AC and EV
04:24:57 <ion> (AC is more important for a fighter.)
04:25:16 <ion> You see them in the default display.
04:25:40 <ion> Higher both is best.
04:25:54 <ion> But prefer AC as a fighter.
04:26:25 <ion> (Of course there are other things that matter, too. Wear a plate mail with no armor skill and fighting will be difficult.)
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04:29:17 <elliott> 05:29 <Henzell> grey rat[1/1]: A much more formidable foe than the plain rats, grey rats can kill in the midgame. If they get lucky.
04:29:22 <elliott> I can't tell how serious this entry is.
04:29:34 <elliott> Guess I'll ask whoever it is that does monster info.
04:32:20 <monqy> oh no did you died
04:33:22 <elliott> IS GREY RAT SCARY ICANT TELLE monqy
04:33:27 <ion> Grey rats aren’t that bad IIRC.
04:33:30 <monqy> the one where you died
04:33:38 <monqy> because I wasn't around to save you, presumably
04:33:49 <elliott> 05:00 <elliott> monqy: gastronok is scary right
04:33:49 <elliott> 05:00 <elliott> 05:00 <Henzell> guru wisdom[3/24]: <monky> gastronok is like a titan but with less speed and lightning and more spammals
04:33:49 <elliott> 05:00 <elliott> thanks, monqy
04:33:51 <ion> Look at it with x. It seems to say how bad the monster might be nowadays.
04:33:59 <elliott> No, I died even though you were around to save me, inside Henzell. :(
04:34:15 <monqy> grey rat is like rat
04:34:27 <monqy> what did henzell say
04:34:31 <ion> You died because you ran back and forth and back and forth within the c’s shooting range. :-P
04:34:32 <elliott> 05:29 <elliott> 05:29 <Henzell> grey rat[1/1]: A much more formidable foe than the plain rats, grey rats can kill in the midgame. If they get lucky.
04:34:42 <elliott> ion: IT WAS A DANCE OF DEATH
04:34:54 <monqy> elliott: henzell isn't always reliable, see {butterfly}
04:34:58 <elliott> monqy: You should fix that learndb entry. :(
04:35:05 <elliott> monqy: That one's obviously joking.
04:35:09 <elliott> This one is less obviously so. :(
04:35:43 <monqy> I need a good quote overhyping grey rats before I edit {grey rat}
04:36:09 <elliott> OMG MY GREY RAT JUST KILLED EVERY MONSTER IN THE GAME AND THEN PERSONALLY STOLE THE ORB OF ZOT AND WON INSTEAD OF ME AND NOW I'M ITS PET INSTEAD
04:36:25 <elliott> also i'm wearing a helmet of clever
04:36:38 <monqy> elliott: consider learndb "improved"
04:37:03 <elliott> you forgot my quote though (please don't add my quote)
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04:37:27 <elliott> b - a +2 plate armour of magic resistance 1629 gold
04:37:32 <elliott> maybe i should rob a bank and then buy that
04:37:37 <monqy> plate of rC is better
04:37:44 <elliott> why is crawl's shop system boring you can't even steal
04:38:00 <monqy> I guess MR is better if you already have enough rC
04:38:05 <elliott> add them both to my shopping list
04:38:06 <monqy> for you rF would be best since you're ghoule
04:38:10 <monqy> no don't get them boooth
04:38:17 <elliott> i cant remotely afford them
04:38:23 <elliott> they cost approximately their full price more than i can afford
04:38:43 <elliott> remind me to remove those if i find plate armour i like
04:39:22 <elliott> hmm, i don't actually know how to get dump with sequelle
04:39:47 <monqy> !log is short hand for !lg with the -log argument
04:41:01 <elliott> looked harmless in the log
04:41:41 <elliott> sure could use a scroll of make everything ok righ tnow
04:42:37 <elliott> maybe i'm tough enough to just rush it with this hp
04:43:44 <monqy> if you're rushing it hit . instead of j
04:43:56 <monqy> do you have potiones
04:45:19 <monqy> probably a bad idea
04:45:26 <elliott> instead of rushing it i could
04:45:26 <monqy> could throw a dart
04:45:53 <monqy> it can only have so many hand axes, and orcs are weak
04:47:43 <elliott> i just don't like orc parties
04:47:43 <monqy> what happened to you
04:49:25 <monqy> normal, until dowan hastes duvessa or duvessa berks because you killed dowan, or dowan hastes because you killed duvessa
04:49:41 <elliott> i don't know why i said fast
04:50:09 <ais523> I never had a problem with them, but maybe that's just me
04:50:20 <elliott> maybe i'll try and kill them and
04:50:24 <monqy> if you kill dowan first and flee from the berk it will time out and duvessa wont berk again
04:50:34 <monqy> if you kill duvessa first, dowan will be upgraded forever
04:50:40 <elliott> monqy: fleeing berk sounds kinda hard
04:50:42 <elliott> ais523: i'm only xl6 though
04:50:55 <monqy> elliott: tele or carefully using stairs or meph or confuse etcetc
04:51:06 <elliott> monqy: well tele works but
04:51:09 <elliott> won't a few turns of berk kill me
04:51:11 <monqy> elliott: by carefully I mean "take the stairs before duvessa gets next to you"
04:51:23 <monqy> maybe if you're real squishy
04:51:33 <elliott> oh there's a downstairs right there
04:51:42 <elliott> inaccessible once i get fighting
04:51:58 <elliott> i was hoping dowan would come first
04:51:59 <monqy> usually they aren't that hard
04:52:20 <monqy> it only works if you lure them both or one of thems dead
04:52:37 <monqy> one fun thing to do is enslave one of them and get them to kill the other
04:52:49 <elliott> i don't want them both to be able to fire at me right
04:52:53 <monqy> I'v heard stories of polymorphing them into slime creatures and getting them to merge
04:52:58 <elliott> i don't really see how i could get to fighting dowan
04:53:08 <elliott> lured them both up the stairs and found a chokepoint and got lucky but
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04:53:35 <monqy> you don't have to kill dowan first
04:54:17 <elliott> they're squishier than i expected
04:54:18 <monqy> which getting them both almost dead then killing them both quicky is also a good plane
04:54:31 <elliott> when i encountered them like
04:54:52 <elliott> might well have been, actually
04:55:53 <elliott> i guess this might be ok if i train armour
04:56:14 <monqy> train armour is a good idea
04:56:26 <elliott> swap back for now and keep training armour?
04:56:28 <monqy> you don't want to use heavy armour if you don't train armour or it will just be awful
05:00:35 <elliott> armour or jewellery maybe???
05:00:38 <elliott> ais523: which should i acquire
05:01:23 <ais523> jewellery used to be the only decent acquirement
05:01:29 <ais523> perhaps armor acquirement has been fixed soon
05:01:36 <elliott> monqy: has armour acquirement been fixed soon
05:01:47 <ais523> oh right, Crawl has armour, NetHack has armor
05:01:58 <monqy> what was broken about it
05:03:15 <elliott> ais523: what was borkne ambout it :(
05:03:37 <monqy> you can ask ##crawl about acq; im not really aware of its current state
05:03:46 <monqy> other than misc is laughable and that's why you should acquire misc
05:03:56 <ais523> elliott: what you ended up acquiring sucked
05:04:05 <monqy> ais523: that always happens
05:04:08 <elliott> 06:03 <Henzell> acquirement[2/3]: Q: What should I acquire? A: Wand. Or armour, or gold. Or, in rare cases, staff or jewellery. Or, in really rare cases, like you decided to do abyss with no food, food.
05:04:13 <monqy> ais523: it's one of acquirement's design goals
05:04:32 <ais523> elliott: I guess armour, then, because presumably it's been buffed if it's mentioned as a good potion
05:04:35 <elliott> so glad i took 10 minutes to make that decision
05:04:40 <ais523> elliott: are they /good/ cloves/
05:04:56 <monqy> and on a ghoul no less
05:05:11 <monqy> looks like you just got crawl dev'd
05:06:00 <elliott> monqy: oh yeah what level should i train armour to before spliting
05:06:15 <monqy> I'd personally just put the splint on and train armour
05:06:22 <monqy> unless it lowers my ac or something
05:06:37 <elliott> EV 9 to EV 6 is not very nice :( or is it
05:06:46 <monqy> you also got more ac!!
05:06:56 <elliott> time to set up an exclusion zone
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05:08:27 <monqy> jellyfish the famous pushover
05:08:29 <elliott> what is an orc wizard doing in water
05:08:35 <monqy> not being in water
05:09:02 <elliott> what, i thought i had hw id'd
05:10:08 <elliott> what is that centaur doing
05:10:34 <monqy> centaurs can't over water
05:10:45 <monqy> unless they have a +Lev weapon or something
05:10:51 <monqy> they can still shoot over water just fine
05:11:06 <monqy> you could confuse it
05:11:30 <monqy> don't die in the process
05:13:37 <monqy> rather, e will reduce its size, and then e again will remove it
05:13:41 <monqy> and then e again will place it
05:14:22 <monqy> it's pink if the exclusiones there
05:14:28 <monqy> just hit pinks until they stop being pikn
05:14:37 <monqy> or use ^E to clear exclusions
05:15:14 <elliott> are jellyfish pushovers or
05:15:24 <monqy> jellyfish are indeed pushovers
05:16:27 <elliott> maybe i should just skip this level
05:16:35 <elliott> i think the temple is on this level
05:16:58 <monqy> how much have you explored
05:17:31 <monqy> might be a secret door in that thing at the top
05:17:45 <monqy> to the up and right of your cursore
05:18:37 <monqy> only if ijyb has a gnasty wand
05:19:07 <elliott> i misjudge how pushover things are because
05:19:11 <elliott> i fight them at different levels each time
05:21:07 <elliott> ais523 was all bad for ghoul
05:21:44 <monqy> personally oka doesn't excite me but
05:21:49 <monqy> maybe oka would excite you
05:22:03 <elliott> joke about renaming oka to default
05:22:10 <elliott> "jokes affect my opinion of crawle things"
05:22:27 <monqy> they aren't so bad at this point are they
05:22:45 <monqy> have you found chei yet
05:22:46 <elliott> they're still the only common thing that can put a huge splodge of red on my hp bar in a turn or two
05:23:07 <monqy> no? it was at 6 las ti hcecked
05:25:47 <elliott> i like how my running away just
05:27:08 <elliott> monqy: can i survive a run to the >
05:27:44 <monqy> can't you go around?
05:27:50 <monqy> also is that temple
05:28:36 <monqy> also to get to the > you'd have to go through some plants
05:31:35 <monqy> if you're alternating: makh
05:31:39 <monqy> if you're asheing: ashe
05:31:48 <elliott> i liked how i didn't have to do anything for ashe
05:31:57 <elliott> maybe makh's fighting abilities matter to me more than see invis?
05:32:12 <elliott> what auto-iding can ashey do for me
05:33:47 <monqy> i dont know ashe stuff
05:35:31 <elliott> monqy: does equipment include scrolls and potions
05:37:03 <elliott> The runed arrow hits you! You blink.
05:39:06 <monqy> ugh fine read fear
05:39:14 <monqy> then get to the door
05:39:16 <elliott> can i run up to it and melee it now
05:39:28 <elliott> will it fire arrows if it's fleeing
05:39:36 <monqy> once it stops fleeing though yes
05:39:48 <elliott> will it stop fleeing if i run up to it :(
05:40:00 <monqy> it's fast so you won't be able to close distance like that until it stops fleeing anyway
05:41:22 <monqy> running might be a ba didea
05:41:25 <monqy> since the centaur will find you
05:41:55 <ion> When he opens the door, maybe you can melee him.
05:43:02 <ion> If i had to choose between dying to a shooting c and dying while meleeing a c, i’d try my luck with the latter one.
05:43:07 <ion> DRINK ALL THE POTIONS
05:43:08 <monqy> might isn't as important since by the time it matters you're already distyanceclosed
05:43:30 <elliott> centaurs can be pretty bad even in melee sometimes???
05:43:36 <elliott> if it has that kind of weponry
05:43:38 <monqy> ok whatever if you aren't confident in your centaurkilling ability by now uquaff it
05:44:18 <elliott> ok i guess it wasn't necessary
05:44:26 <elliott> im picking up these arrows so that nobody else does
05:45:22 <ion> Almost nothing is cursed. :-(
05:47:32 <ion> When @.x where x is some melee monster, don’t move toward him, press dot and let him move one step toward you. You’ll get the first punch.
05:47:56 <monqy> don't do that if x has a polearms
05:48:08 <monqy> or a whipe of reaching
05:48:14 <elliott> ion: yeah sometimes i just
05:48:21 <monqy> gourmande on ghouls makes you pretend all chunks are rotten
05:48:28 <elliott> You feel a craving for the dungeon's cuisine.
05:48:48 <ion> That would be a good name for a restaurant.
05:49:25 <monqy> mcdonalds ball and slide dungeon
05:49:46 <monqy> you mean the mlist?
05:49:53 <monqy> don't trust the mlist colours
05:49:57 <monqy> it was a horrible addition
05:50:11 <monqy> it's so misleading
05:50:38 <elliott> then beat the crap out of it
05:50:47 <ion> monqy: Huh. I haven’t had any problems with the colors. I like them.
05:51:19 <monqy> ion: most of the time it works, but in those cases you already know the difficulties of stuff at least as precisely as the mlist colours them
05:51:26 <elliott> wow what is it with the wandes on this floor
05:51:31 <monqy> ion: but there are cases where it's way off
05:51:36 <monqy> ion: like eyeballs and boggarts
05:51:46 <monqy> ion: so you can't trust it if you don't know the difficulty of something already
05:51:49 <monqy> ion: so it's useless
05:52:25 <elliott> 06:52 <Henzell> box of beasts[1/1]: Your own mobile petting zoo! Evoke to release a beast. If the evocation was unsuccessful, there is a 1 in 6 chance that the box will turn into a simple empty ebony casket. Succeeds (60 + evo)/100. Hostile: 1/(evo+5). Bat, hound, jackal, rat, ice beast, snake, yak, butterfly, water moccasin, crocodile, or hell hound (if not worshipping a good god).
05:52:28 <elliott> that sounds like fune thoughe!!!
05:52:50 <elliott> ok i wont because you said no
05:52:57 <monqy> decide for yourself
05:53:04 <monqy> using misc items is cool
05:53:21 <monqy> you asked if it's good; the answer is no. should you use it? yes.
05:53:44 <elliott> maybe i'll use it on zot:5
05:53:58 <elliott> excuse me monqy laugh at the implication there please
05:54:41 <shachaf> amonqy: "did shachaf ruine your hiing"
05:54:49 <ion> elliott: Next time try a deep elf summoner. They’re fun in the beginning.
05:55:00 <shachaf> ion: I've been playing DESu!
05:55:07 <elliott> _p - a scroll labeled ZEODGH YTODONIT {tried}
05:55:13 <monqy> shachaf: I thought you didn't play crawl
05:55:15 <elliott> i was gonna make a pun here but
05:55:37 <elliott> are you going to tell me to hack and back them
05:55:42 <HackEgo> 839) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes
05:56:06 <monqy> elliott: hack and back what
05:56:15 <elliott> what were you going to suggest
05:56:32 <ion> Did you open the box of breasts yet?
05:56:52 <elliott> monqy: i thought you were upset about me whacking the goliath bettle
05:57:09 <monqy> did you hack and back it :(
05:57:15 <elliott> and then you went no stop dont
05:57:27 <ion> whacking is fine –monqy, 2012
05:57:30 <elliott> for... playing on localhost?
05:57:58 <shachaf> monqy: draw a self protrait of me :'(
05:58:01 <ion> `quote <elliott> i just whacked it <monqy> whacking is fine
05:58:14 <ion> whatsthecommand
05:58:26 <ion> `addquote <elliott> i just whacked it <monqy> whacking is fine
05:58:30 <HackEgo> 851) <elliott> i just whacked it <monqy> whacking is fine
05:58:42 <elliott> is that two spaces between the messages?
05:59:00 <shachaf> two spaces = the greatest evile
05:59:23 <monqy> shachaf: what do you look like, this is necessary for any good self portrait
05:59:48 <elliott> does shachaf know what self means
06:00:19 <shachaf> elliott: it meanse a portrait monqy draws of me
06:00:34 <shachaf> elliott: When you drew "sahchef, paraphrased" that was also a self portrait.
06:00:57 <elliott> where is all the shit in this dunjon
06:02:36 <ion> Zombies art slowe. Hydras, not so slowe.
06:02:51 <ion> What do you have?
06:03:04 <monqy> are you in a pickle
06:03:11 <elliott> rock troll zombie down there
06:05:08 <ion> You can escape stuff by blinking. And you can try to confuse the hydra and blast it with fire for instance.
06:05:53 <elliott> monqy: should i melee hydra
06:06:01 <shachaf> monqy: draw a self protaraite of me ;'(
06:06:11 <monqy> elliott: proably not
06:06:24 <monqy> elliott: what's on your screne
06:06:44 <monqy> i wouldnt want to mele it
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06:06:52 <monqy> if you do mele, definitely use glov
06:07:02 <monqy> and if you do mele, soften it up from afar with wands, rather than charging it
06:07:06 <monqy> if you dont melee, run away
06:07:08 <monqy> it's still wandering
06:07:12 <monqy> you can skip the leve
06:07:17 <shachaf> elliott: does crawle have melee island
06:07:39 <ion> elliott: What’s wrong with your ^O?
06:07:46 <elliott> ion: entering it does nothing
06:08:10 <ion> Do other ctrl commands work?
06:08:17 <elliott> ^O has some special terminal meaning
06:08:42 <ion> Try telnetting to the server instead of sshing for shits and giggles. :-)
06:08:48 <elliott> I do telnet to the server.
06:08:55 <ion> Try sshing to the server instead of telnetting for shits and giggles. :-)
06:09:12 <elliott> I want to be able to mosh to the server. :(
06:09:32 <elliott> "Yes, telnet on Mac OS X is blocking ^O" -- sigh.
06:10:27 <elliott> should i recharge confusion or digging hmmm
06:10:39 <ion> They have the most insane ssh setuppe. Get the private key from <http://crawl.akrasiac.org/cao_key> and log in using ssh -o IdentityFile=cao_key crawl@crawl.develz.org
06:10:58 <elliott> They use the CAO key for CDO?
06:12:05 <elliott> 07:11 <Henzell> scroll of amnesia[1/1]: Added in 0.8 along with the removal of the selective amnesia spell. Same rarity as enchant armour so expect around a dozen at zot.
06:13:09 <ion> Lets you forget a spell.
06:13:18 <ion> .ssh/config: http://hpaste.org/67953
06:13:20 <elliott> Curse weapon is useless for me. :(
06:13:40 <elliott> 07:13 <Henzell> pressure plate[1/1]: A mystery trap whose function is defined in lua
06:14:00 <ion> Ooh, i’ve never seen one.
06:16:00 <Madoka-Kaname> I made a Underload -> Scala compiler for some reason...
06:16:00 <monqy> elliott: what hapn
06:16:06 <elliott> monqy: pressure plate trape
06:17:37 <elliott> why don't they build these things with chokepoints
06:18:25 <elliott> monqy: is this a volte thing
06:19:47 <monqy> maybe it used to be a bailey entry
06:19:52 <monqy> but bailey went beyebye
06:19:58 <monqy> maybe it wasnt baile
06:20:55 <Madoka-Kaname> elliott, you would be free to add a (really messy) underload compiler to the wiki page, right?
06:21:16 <monqy> just run up to it and kill it
06:21:18 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: that stuff generally goes in the file archive but sure (but it should probably go on a user page)
06:21:21 <monqy> you're way too afraid of lectirc eels
06:22:02 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: what's your username
06:22:07 <elliott> User:username/Underload to Scala compiler
06:22:11 <elliott> and link it from the Underload page
06:23:32 <Madoka-Kaname> elliott, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#External_resources
06:24:07 <elliott> ehh, I guess it can count as "external"
06:24:10 <elliott> but you could just put it in the file archive
06:24:27 <elliott> monqy: since when are yaks kinda weak
06:25:39 <elliott> whats ghmo got to do with yake
06:25:44 <elliott> stuff is starting to get scary again :(
06:25:52 <Madoka-Kaname> elliott, is the file archive up for public uploading? ><
06:26:03 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: see http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/
06:26:44 <elliott> I thought I had poison resistance
06:30:20 <elliott> maybe i'll quaff curing and lumber over to the cyclops
06:30:27 <ion> Can you teleport?
06:30:41 <monqy> shachaf: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/shachaf.png
06:30:53 <ion> Blink behind the oooooo and run away perhaps.
06:30:54 <elliott> monqy: christ that's beautiful
06:31:08 <shachaf> elliott: monqy's self portrait of me > your self portrait of me
06:31:19 <elliott> i guess ill escape downstairs
06:31:24 <shachaf> elliott: it's even like french and stuff
06:32:35 <monqy> imagine an ogre that throws rocks which are also ogres
06:32:43 <Sgeo> monqy, elliott has been updated
06:33:42 <elliott> i guess nothing's likely to pick those up uhhh
06:34:05 <shachaf> monqy: do the ogre rocks throw rocks
06:34:50 <elliott> what's up with my inventory weight
06:34:53 <elliott> im not carrying anything super heavy??
06:35:02 <ion> The flesh.
06:35:28 <elliott> is troll hide good fo ranything
06:35:54 <ion> Look at its description. The short answer: probably not.
06:36:16 <elliott> suppose you could wear it if you really wanted to, although you probably want
06:36:16 <elliott> to enchant it into proper armour first.
06:36:27 <ion> Enchanting it provides some regeneration IIRC.
06:36:45 <ion> Perhaps it was at AC+4 or something like that.
06:37:23 <elliott> what is UP with these branches
06:37:33 <monqy> you already saw orc
06:37:35 <ion> If you’re a lighte armoure guy, it myghte be usefulle.
06:37:39 <monqy> lair is max depth 13
06:37:43 <elliott> i did not see orcish mines
06:37:46 <monqy> elliott: yes you did
06:37:49 <monqy> elliott: you saw the entry vault
06:37:51 <elliott> Search for what [Enter for "mines", or ? for help]? orcish mines
06:37:52 <elliott> _Can't find anything matching that.
06:37:52 <monqy> elliott: it had an eel
06:37:56 <ion> ssh there and hit ^O
06:37:57 <monqy> elliott: check xmap
06:38:05 <ion> And hit ^G now
06:38:07 <elliott> ion: as I said, asterisk o works
06:38:20 <monqy> elliott: you didn't see the staircase but you saw the entry vault
06:38:27 <monqy> it'll be on your Xmap
06:38:38 <elliott> i dunno how to find it with the Xmap
06:38:47 <elliott> also did you draw that duck it's beautiful
06:38:54 <elliott> monqy: i don't know what the entry vault looks like
06:39:13 <monqy> i used to be better at drawing but i'm so out of practice and my tablet is like weird so the pen thing moves faster horizontally than diagonally
06:39:20 <monqy> i;ll know what level it is
06:39:21 <elliott> can you draw me a self-portrait :(
06:39:59 <elliott> oh this level has a bunch of centaurs
06:40:32 <ion> I like shachaf.png.
06:40:42 <elliott> ion: did you see shachef.png before it
06:41:03 <elliott> wow i get to choose which armour to curse
06:41:16 <elliott> im good enough to use plate now
06:41:27 <monqy> wheres shachef.png i don't have it
06:41:34 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZDhvag/shachef.png
06:42:10 <ion> Too bad i don’t know the context for shachef, paraphrased.
06:42:20 <elliott> ion: There is no context whatsoever.
06:42:38 <elliott> shachaf has this logo thing that I crudely attempted to imitate, and someone said paraphrasing shachef or something at one point.
06:43:02 <elliott> The Bonzi Buddy thing has no context except shachaf or someone mentioned it shortly before I started doing the self-portrait.
06:43:36 <elliott> wait, that's a *single* potion of heal wounds?
06:44:41 <elliott> monqy: i dont want to be diseased
06:44:44 <ion> ＢＲＥＡＫＩＮＧ ＮＥＷＳ http://www.macrumors.com/2012/04/23/next-generation-iphone-part-leaks-begin-with-home-buttons/ http://www.macrumors.com/2012/05/01/claimed-iphone-5-sim-card-tray-appears-identical-to-iphone-4s/
06:45:09 <monqy> elliott: ghouls cant
06:45:10 <monqy> elliott: dont wory
06:45:24 <elliott> monqy: man ghouls need nerfing or something
06:45:35 <shachaf> ion: ＩＳ ＴＨＡＴ ＢＯＬＤ ＦＵＬＬＷＩＤＴＨ ＴＥＸＴ？！
06:45:59 <elliott> im not used to battles with hill giants not ending with me nearly dead
06:46:00 <ion> ＳＨＡＣＨＡＦ： ＹＥＳ！
06:46:26 <elliott> monqy: so this thing is mephitic cloud: the monster
06:46:27 <monqy> ghouls don't have to worry about meph either
06:46:36 <monqy> yes you can use it to confuse the iguana
06:48:35 <elliott> the invisible annoying things
06:50:00 <ion> I think it was called an unseen horror.
06:50:14 <monqy> probably unseen horrore
06:51:25 <kmc> holy fuck, apple replaces round home button with rounded square
06:51:37 <kmc> This changes everything. Again.
06:51:49 <monqy> elliott: chokepoint it or something
06:52:02 <elliott> i dont think there are any choke points
06:52:12 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see monqy's self-portrait of me?
06:52:17 <elliott> i could go here but it'd just go around
06:52:20 <shachaf> It was even better than elliott's.
06:52:50 <shachaf> I bet kmc wishes he had a self-portrait drawn by monqy.
06:53:01 <elliott> im getting a self-portrait drawn by monqy
06:53:07 <ion> s/self/nude/
06:54:20 <ion> Still **.... :-(
06:54:39 <elliott> ion: didnt find any curse stuff
06:54:42 <elliott> maybe i should just tab spam these guys
06:54:48 <ion> If you think you can melee them, go to the middle quickly. That’ll be better than letting them blast you from the distance.
06:55:29 <ion> That worked, but you might have done the go-to-the-middle thing to get out of it with even more HP left. :-)
06:55:50 <elliott> do i still have to worry about this guy at xl11
06:56:41 <ion> Look at its description with x. I’m not sure how reliable that is, but i noticed it says something how bad the enemy is.
06:57:52 <ion> The “He looks extremely dangerous” part. I have no idea whether your level affects it, though.
06:57:56 <elliott> 07:57 <Gretell> Gastronok (j) | Spd: 5 | Int: normal (starting) | HD: 20 | HP: 150 | AC/EV: 2/1 | Dam: 40 | Fl: amphibious, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(80), drown | Chunks: poison | XP: 2131 | Sp: airstrike (0-50), slow, swiftness, small mammals, cantrip.
06:58:03 <ion> Also, x=v is nicer than xhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhv
06:58:14 <elliott> specifically the HP and Dam parts
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06:59:15 <monqy> hastronok probably wouldn't be too tough for your character
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06:59:28 <elliott> ill train up in the lair first
06:59:33 <elliott> uhh when does the lair start getting scary again
07:00:54 <elliott> 08:00 <Henzell> black mamba[1/3]: Very fast snake that does a lot of damage and can inflict multiple levels of poisoning with one bite. Extremely dangerous, but susceptible to resistible magic, such as wands of paralysis, confusion, slowing, and disintegration.
07:01:07 <elliott> i guess it's less dangerous with rPois though
07:02:26 <elliott> Maybe I should train something else too.
07:04:30 <elliott> Great place to run, griffon.
07:05:52 <elliott> I guess I don't really need three wands of random effects.
07:07:15 <elliott> Maybe I should run back up and face Gastronok.
07:08:31 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Wed May 2 00:08:31 2012
07:11:38 <monqy> 5headed isn't too bad either
07:11:42 <monqy> if you have gloves you can probably take it
07:11:56 <elliott> 08:06 <Gretell> hydra (D) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | Int: insect | HD: 13 | HP: 54-91 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Dam: 18 per head | Fl: amphibious, regen | Res: magic(52), poison, drown | Chunks: poison+contam | XP: 1215.
07:11:57 <monqy> each head checks your ac
07:12:14 <monqy> 1d18 - 1d19 (factoring in -1 from glov)
07:12:36 <monqy> so really you're pretty darn safe vs hydra
07:12:43 <monqy> ok i take that back
07:12:51 <elliott> your calculations were in error
07:14:12 <elliott> monqy: how fast are hydrae?
07:14:21 <monqy> normal speed except in water (then they're fast)
07:14:34 <monqy> do you have any better armour?
07:14:55 <monqy> if it improves your ac, use it
07:15:03 <monqy> it may or may not improve your ac
07:15:08 <elliott> and i'm not going to experiment to find out in these conditions
07:15:16 <monqy> well of course not right now
07:15:20 <monqy> changing armour would be certain death
07:15:28 <shachaf> I WAS KILLED BY A HYDRA ONCE*
07:18:40 <elliott> monqy: i could remove curse to check if plate mail would help but
07:19:00 <elliott> i was waiting until i got enchant armour scrolls to switch
07:20:01 <elliott> ill go have fun with thingybob
07:21:14 <elliott> 08:21 <Henzell> deep elf priest[1/1]: Notable abilities: Can smite, animate dead, die
07:21:17 <elliott> the die thing makes me think they're
07:22:15 <elliott> 08:22 <Gretell> deep elf priest (e) | Spd: 10 | Int: high (items) | HD: 5 | HP: 16-30 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Dam: 9 | Fl: evil | Res: magic(40) | Vul: holy | Chunks: contam | XP: 136 | Sp: pain (d10), cantrip, minor healing, smiting (7-17), twisted resurrection.
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07:24:57 <elliott> You are not playing in the latest version (33d826f) available!
07:24:57 <elliott> [T]ransfer your save to the latest version?
07:25:52 <elliott> hydrae again and hope things don't go as badly as they did
07:26:01 <elliott> but if they do i'll be fucked
07:28:10 <elliott> monqy: guess what :D :D :D :D :D: D: :D: D:
07:31:04 <lambdabot> Local time for ion is Wed May 2 10:31:04 2012
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07:34:14 <elliott> the hippgriff is dying quickly so
07:34:18 <elliott> i MIGHT be able to just whack it but
07:40:22 <elliott> monqy: eight-headed is beyond my abilities right
07:42:23 <shachaf> elliott: ...A word starts with a glottal stop iff you use "an" instead of "a" in front of it.
07:42:29 <shachaf> Glad to have clarified it for you!
07:43:18 <monqy> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/eliot.png
07:43:46 <elliott> i just wish that spellingof my name didnt make me crei(briados) :'(
07:43:53 <elliott> im going to set that as my background
07:45:25 <monqy> if you decide to take it on you'll want to soften it up with wands or something
07:45:29 <shachaf> EIGHT MILLION-headed hydra
07:45:39 <monqy> do you have greater destruction and some decent invo skill?
07:45:47 <elliott> greater destruction? i'm ashe
07:46:22 <elliott> uhhh fire? fireball? flame? confusion?
07:46:30 <monqy> fire and fireball are probably the best for this guy
07:46:38 <monqy> dunno about confusion
07:47:09 <elliott> that didn't really do anything to it
07:47:13 <elliott> uhhh there's no point retreating right
07:47:21 <monqy> what if you dont want to die
07:47:34 <elliott> the only way out is through it or fungus
07:47:42 <monqy> and that's not the only way out
07:47:49 <monqy> there's a diagonal slott over there
07:48:14 <monqy> just hope it doesn't get a doubel move
07:48:26 <monqy> and hope you don't do that
07:48:46 <monqy> what are you doing
07:49:30 <elliott> maybe i should go back to the dungeon
07:50:27 <elliott> 08:50 <Henzell> slime creature[1/4]: An annoying resource drain; they hit hard enough that light-armour users have to worry about them, have reasonably high HP, never leave corpses, come in packs, regenerate, and flee at the slightest provocation.
07:51:09 <elliott> "Try not to let them merge more than once, because the damage only keeps increasing, from 44 for two slimes up to 110 for five slimes."
07:51:32 <monqy> I know ugly things are 11
07:51:43 <monqy> close the door on them
07:51:46 <ion> monqy: So, gloves help a lot when hitting monsters with your claws?
07:52:05 <monqy> ion: gloves are for making you not chop hydra heads off
07:52:08 <monqy> ion: (with your claws)
07:52:16 <ion> Ok, good to know.
07:52:19 <elliott> ive closed the door on it monqy
07:52:20 <monqy> ion: they negate claw bonus damage though
07:52:28 <ion> Right, makes sense.
07:52:54 <ion> I’ve never fought hydras with ghouls, i didn’t know their claws are badass enough to chop heads off.
07:52:57 <elliott> there's a very large slime creature down there
07:53:03 <elliott> maybe a wande will help???
07:53:20 <monqy> ion: it's just claws 1, "sharp fingernails", but that's enough to chop them
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07:55:05 <Patashu> elliot's gotten further as a monk than I ever have
07:55:12 <Patashu> (I'm bad at unarmed combat for some reason)
07:55:21 <monqy> unarmed combat is really good
07:55:32 <monqy> unless it was meganerfed
07:55:44 <Patashu> uc feels really really inaccurate at lower levels
07:55:47 <Patashu> maybe I am doing something wrong
07:55:49 <Patashu> I pump it as fast as I can
07:56:04 <monqy> uc is bad at the lower levels but really really good at higher levels
07:56:17 <elliott> but it still feels "pretey goode"
07:56:22 <elliott> there's a very large slime creature >
07:56:31 <monqy> pick another stair case
07:56:34 <monqy> alternatively do orc
07:56:48 <monqy> elliott: it's on d:6
07:56:53 <elliott> monqy: but i thought lair first
07:57:12 <monqy> lair first is what you do if it's not ful of things you have problems with
07:57:18 <elliott> Patashu: lair has eight-headed hydrae
07:57:20 <monqy> if you get a hard lair, orc might be easier
07:57:30 <Patashu> yeah I guess what monqy said
07:57:35 <Patashu> 6 blink frogs were around the staircase
07:57:52 <Patashu> but I prefer lair's difficulty spurts to orc's
07:57:55 <monqy> one time I had a lair as a ghoul where all three up staircases on lair:1 were next to a nasty hydra
07:58:03 <elliott> monqy: how can i calculate what AC/EV i'll get with the splint mail
07:58:09 <elliott> monqy: how can i calculate what AC/EV i'll get with the plate armour
07:58:16 <monqy> maybe henzel knows
07:58:17 <Patashu> plate will give you more gdr
07:58:35 <elliott> doesn't sound worth it yet
07:58:58 <Patashu> wait, you never found orc?
07:59:07 <elliott> monqy: should i adjust my skilles maybe
07:59:16 <ion> electric elliott
07:59:19 <Patashu> (maybe more uc less non uc)
07:59:30 <elliott> i was training armour so that
07:59:43 <Patashu> are you at uc mindelay yet?
07:59:56 <monqy> uc mindelay is 27, it used to be 25 but it was nerfed
08:00:09 <Patashu> you don't hit mindelay until 27
08:00:14 <Patashu> I would recommend more mindelay
08:00:16 <monqy> uc is good to train to 27 anyway
08:00:24 <monqy> each skill level gives you more damage etc too
08:00:31 <monqy> it adds 1 to your base damage
08:00:45 <monqy> or something like that
08:00:53 <monqy> anyway it's good and you should train it
08:01:08 <monqy> you could defocus it if you wanted uc up faster
08:01:15 <monqy> i dunno much about armour skille "oops"
08:01:22 <elliott> plate is rly heavy and stuff
08:01:31 <elliott> ill have to remove curse to switch to it
08:01:37 <ion> CDO should let us attach gdb to our game instances so we could fix problems like too low UC level.
08:01:38 <elliott> since i'm waiting for an enchant armour scroll to make it worth it
08:01:42 <monqy> yeah having lots of armour skille is good for heavey armours
08:01:46 <elliott> i might as well train armour a lot so that I don't get EV penalty as much
08:02:08 <monqy> armour skill also gives you more ac on heavier armours
08:02:14 <Patashu> imagine if the eels in crawl were like the eels in brogue
08:02:28 <elliott> what's with this smoke thing
08:02:32 <Patashu> yeah I guess it would be an improvement actually
08:02:37 <monqy> you mean the vault?
08:02:40 <monqy> yeah just avoid it
08:03:16 <ion> Blink inside at some point when you have extra blink scrolls or cTele.
08:03:25 <ion> if it looks like there’s something useful inside.
08:03:54 <elliott> what is it with warriors switching weapons
08:04:01 <Patashu> you can never have enough blink scrolls
08:04:08 <ion> 20 gold pieces is infinitely more gold pieces than i have.
08:04:32 <Patashu> you didn't realize the other orc warrior had a glaive?
08:04:46 <elliott> maybe i'm not ready for orcish mines after all :)
08:05:06 <monqy> what happened here
08:05:11 <Patashu> the orc warrior has a glaive
08:05:17 <elliott> Patashu: did you see monqy's self-portrait of shachaf and me
08:05:21 <ion> Note to self: consider adding “hits you from afar” to force_more_messages
08:05:37 <monqy> Patashu: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/shachaf.png http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/eliot.png
08:05:44 <elliott> Patashu: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/shachaf.png http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/eliot.png
08:05:56 <elliott> i had to look in the logs for those
08:06:07 <ion> Patashu: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/shachaf.png http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/eliot.png
08:06:38 <elliott> why is there no heal wounds in this fucking dungeon
08:07:12 <monqy> elliott: double joke: youre ghouel
08:07:27 <Patashu> you're speed 10, they're speed 10
08:07:28 <ion> ghowel movement
08:07:30 <Patashu> you're not in danger of dying
08:07:32 <Patashu> unless you let them hit you
08:07:36 <Patashu> do you like pillar dancing?
08:07:40 <monqy> Patashu: double moves!
08:07:48 <Patashu> one double move won't kill you
08:07:51 <monqy> Patashu: energy randomisation "yaey fun"
08:08:15 <Patashu> and no energy randomisation
08:08:18 <ion> btw play xjump
08:08:18 <elliott> monqy: do i run to < or do i quaff curinge :/
08:08:28 <monqy> btw play monqys roguelike
08:08:33 <monqy> i forget if i had a name for it
08:08:57 <elliott> monqy: quaff curing or run to < help
08:09:04 <ion> elliott: Try my tile set for it. Debian/Ubuntu? xjump -graphic /usr/share/games/xjump/ion.xpm.gz
08:09:21 <elliott> ion: Is this just an elaborate way to brag about being a DEBIAN-PUBLISHED ARTIST?
08:09:28 <elliott> Anyway, no, OS X right now.
08:09:42 <ion> http://johan.kiviniemi.name/tmp/xjump/ion.xpm.gz
08:10:08 <monqy> elliott: i;'d run probabley
08:10:25 <elliott> what if there's eel or w/e
08:10:33 <Patashu> didn't you kill all the eels?
08:11:18 <elliott> it suddenly occurs to me that one of these is gonna follow me up
08:11:26 <monqy> also btw: makhleb solution to hydra: hlep from greater servant
08:11:34 <elliott> yeah but im still a scarey
08:11:48 <Patashu> you should be way past the point of normal orcs killing you
08:11:56 <monqy> Patashu: normal orcs with disto!
08:12:08 <ion> A crappy video i captured from xjump a few years ago: http://johan.kiviniemi.name/tmp/xjump/xjump_562.ogv
08:12:12 <elliott> _The orc sings a few bars from the Orcish anthem.
08:12:29 <elliott> The orc throws an uncursed orcish dagger.
08:12:32 <monqy> elliott: the orc jeers, as orcs often do
08:14:01 <elliott> monqy: ion: are you lagging of CDO twest
08:14:08 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:14:26 <monqy> @ask elliott looks like your connections on the blink
08:14:28 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
08:14:46 <Patashu> I have two brogue wins now
08:14:55 -!- elliott has joined.
08:15:04 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
08:15:15 <monqy> maybe I'd try brogue again if there weren't monkeys or acid lumps
08:15:17 <Patashu> one of them was with a... I think war axe, plate and a shitload of useful utility staves like obstruction and tunneling
08:15:20 <elliott> what do you have against monqys
08:15:26 <Patashu> the other one was with an axe of quietus, plate and 0 staves until depth 19 (and all of them sucked)
08:15:30 <monqy> elliott: i almost typoed monkeys as monqys
08:15:37 <monqy> elliott: then i fixed it
08:15:41 <Patashu> also, both of the two things youm entioend are easy
08:15:48 <Patashu> try this: maybe I'd try brogue again if there weren't vampire bats on d:2
08:15:56 <monqy> Patashu: easy but awful
08:16:03 <monqy> Patashu: vampire bats on d:2 are annoying tooo
08:16:25 <Patashu> I think you'll get out of LOS quickest if you run to the stairs
08:16:29 <monqy> elliott: get to the wall to heal, then kill the eel if you want, then confuse the orc if you want
08:16:37 <elliott> by wall do you mean stairs
08:17:21 <ion> elliott: Do you get a huge adrenaline rush when approaching a high score in xjump?
08:17:28 <elliott> ion: i don't really approach high scores in xjump
08:17:36 <elliott> its like the platforms are made out of butter
08:17:36 <ion> a personal high score
08:17:49 <Patashu> I used to play icy tower, which sounds like what xjump is
08:17:52 <Patashu> I never got really far on it
08:17:57 <Patashu> but I always marveled at the replays of ppl who did
08:17:58 <elliott> Things stay "almost dead" in Crawl for about 100 turns.
08:18:54 <elliott> so there's a portal of some kind on this level?
08:19:08 <Patashu> I thought you only got that message when ash mapped it
08:19:32 <Patashu> might be ice cave, volcano or a shop
08:20:02 <elliott> wow these priests cut into my hp a lot for some reason
08:20:21 <Patashu> and it's random if they decide to smite or not
08:20:23 <elliott> is there anything i can do about them
08:20:24 <Patashu> so one priest will be like
08:20:33 <Patashu> aside from killing them faster
08:20:55 <elliott> uhhh monqy probably isn't happy with what i'm doing
08:21:03 <kmc> this is a weird fuckin channel
08:21:03 <shachaf> monqy: have you ever considerede
08:21:35 <kmc> shachaf: did you learn any crazy unix or x86 today
08:21:39 <kmc> that you could tell me about
08:21:42 <monqy> im tired and still have to read all of this stuff i should have read hours ago
08:22:08 <elliott> monqy: maybe tomorrow what
08:22:16 <shachaf> kmc: I learned that Microsoft abuses bits that don't belong to them.
08:22:26 <monqy> self portrote (of self)
08:22:44 <shachaf> Something to do with the iret state.
08:22:45 <kmc> which bits?
08:23:02 <kmc> which bits of
08:23:18 <shachaf> Apparently there are 64-or-something bits of flags that go on the stack and/or in a register that iret uses or something?
08:23:24 <shachaf> And some of them are reserved.
08:23:27 <shachaf> But Microsoft uses them anyway.
08:23:38 <kmc> iret will restore EFLAGS or RFLAGS from the stack
08:23:51 <kmc> is that what you mean?
08:23:59 <elliott> monqy: i guess i have to find another upstairs to find that portal?
08:24:05 <kmc> hardware stacks are distasteful
08:24:20 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLAGS_register_(computing)
08:24:29 <shachaf> Yes, look at all those reserved bits.
08:24:44 <kmc> "(computing)" meaning "(x86)"
08:24:54 <kmc> and what does Windows use it for?
08:25:23 <elliott> should i step back from wall
08:25:52 <kmc> shachaf: how is it that gin tastes terrible, and tonic water tastes terrible, but gin & tonic is delicious?
08:26:04 <shachaf> kmc: I don't think I've ever had either.
08:26:08 <shachaf> Which one should I try first?
08:26:16 <kmc> well, they're both terrible, so...
08:26:21 <ion> Ooh, a version with smooth scrolling. http://gnujump.es.gnu.org/index.php/Main_Page
08:26:28 <kmc> i think modern tonic water is not too bad
08:26:31 <elliott> ion: that one REALLY REALLY sucks
08:26:36 <ion> It feels quite decent if you turn the turbl trails and blur off.
08:26:41 <elliott> or maybe i just got unlucky
08:26:54 <ion> Seems to work on my system at the moment.
08:26:56 <kmc> the original idea was to mask the taste of antimalarial quinine in tonic water, by adding gin
08:27:03 <kmc> which should give you an idea how fucking terrible tonic water is
08:27:17 <kmc> though, maybe it's less "mask the taste" and more "if this is the only booze we give the troops, they'll drink it"
08:27:17 <elliott> Patashu: that's not helpful
08:27:25 <Patashu> you're dropped right next to the exit
08:27:30 <Patashu> so you can leave if it's hard for some reason
08:27:36 <Patashu> but there'll be places to go for shelter
08:27:48 <ion> antimalarial quine
08:27:52 <elliott> how scary is the stuff inside
08:28:07 <elliott> haha what a terrible place for edmund to turn up
08:28:22 <Patashu> edmund is always fashionably late
08:28:31 <elliott> _Your scroll of teleportation catches fire!
08:28:37 <elliott> i want the thing that protects you from that crap
08:30:08 <ion> ellie: Wow, you already have ***...
08:30:19 <elliott> ion: Eh? I've been with ashey for ages.
08:30:29 <ion> That was the point. :-P
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08:30:36 <ion> Moar cursed stuff!
08:30:40 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
08:30:46 <ion> See the god screen.
08:30:52 <ion> ^ or something
08:31:15 <elliott> "Your claws are not bound." Uhh...
08:31:19 <elliott> monqy: Yes, I know. Should I it?
08:31:20 <Patashu> obviously don't bind those
08:31:37 <monqy> sometimes it's freee loot
08:31:40 <monqy> other times it's less free
08:31:54 <monqy> other times you want to get out but you can get out so it's all good
08:32:06 <elliott> Really drop all my scrolls?
08:32:14 <elliott> Oh, I don't have any of use.
08:32:30 <ion> rF++++++ might be useful judging from the name.
08:32:35 <monqy> potions prefer freeszing
08:32:40 <ion> Cold destroys potions, fire destroys scrolles.
08:32:50 <monqy> elliott: volcano is where you find plate of rF
08:32:54 <elliott> I have ring of protection from fire
08:33:02 <ion> Sounds okay
08:33:04 <Patashu> you don't need to wait for chunks to rot
08:33:05 <monqy> elliott: ooh or cpm of rF!!!
08:33:06 <elliott> maybe I should replace regeneration with ice for volcano?
08:33:16 <elliott> monqy: maybe I should replace regeneration with ice for volcano?
08:33:31 <elliott> Good thing I didn't do that!
08:33:48 <Patashu> in this one the volcano erupts periodically
08:33:49 <elliott> Patashu: Does that mean run?
08:33:52 <Patashu> when it does ge tto a hut and close the door
08:33:53 <ion> thautoexplore
08:33:59 <Patashu> you have rF+ so you should be fine
08:33:59 <elliott> Fuck that. That sounds waful.
08:34:08 <Patashu> the damage is pretty low if you have rF+
08:34:11 <elliott> If it erupts, I die, right?
08:34:20 <Patashu> it just spawns fire clouds randomly
08:34:27 <elliott> So, uh, is autoexplore safe?
08:34:37 <Patashu> I forget so I'd manualexplore
08:36:02 <Madoka-Kaname> Now to be lazy and email the esoteric archive tomorrow.
08:36:16 <ion> Close the doore
08:36:17 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: You can just add that to the external links section as-is.
08:37:17 <elliott> This must be one magical fucking ring to be makingt his harmless.
08:37:22 <monqy> not that your ac is particularly excellent but
08:37:30 <elliott> But it's not hruting much.
08:38:08 <monqy> is there anything on the other side of watter
08:38:37 <Patashu> I don't think there's anything past that
08:38:38 <monqy> have potions of levitation?
08:38:51 <elliott> I'm not going to go there.
08:38:53 <elliott> It's obviously a circular map.
08:39:06 <elliott> I took everything that looked useful.
08:39:10 <ion> Good ideas #497: drink a potion of levitation and explore the vast area of deep water.
08:39:13 <elliott> It was mostly just lower-class armour with fire.
08:39:50 <monqy> fine i'lll look at it
08:40:04 <elliott> I honestly didn't know what you meant.
08:40:09 <Patashu> http://www.gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/volcano.des
08:40:20 <monqy> ok there's nothing on the other side
08:40:57 <Patashu> turn remove curse into curse armor/jewellery
08:41:20 <elliott> Orcs, more like tab tab tab tab tab tab.
08:41:41 <ion> tab the orcs
08:42:32 <elliott> Orcs, more like tab tab tab die.
08:42:54 <monqy> you can step downright and find a choke
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08:43:12 <Patashu> the warrior and ogre are melee only
08:43:19 <monqy> and neither have polearm
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08:43:25 <monqy> there's choke everywhere
08:43:27 <elliott> but there's some semichokes i guess
08:44:15 <monqy> why aren't you damaging that ogr
08:44:16 <elliott> monqy: I told you my continuing fear of ogres was justified.
08:44:34 <monqy> also why is your ac so low (when does ac start going up?)
08:45:00 <elliott> Patashu: Yeah, I should really start using those more.
08:46:32 <elliott> This is the end level, isn't it.
08:46:40 <monqy> it's only scary sometimes
08:47:19 <elliott> i dunno what was with that other ogre
08:47:24 <elliott> it thought it was a hill giant
08:48:01 <elliott> monqy: it's scary this time
08:48:18 <elliott> i guess i could ~mighte~ but
08:48:27 <Patashu> it's not like you're going to ever use all those potions of might
08:48:48 <monqy> ooh the crossbows ending?
08:49:07 <monqy> crossbows ending is the
08:49:13 <monqy> i'll just let you see for yourself
08:49:29 <monqy> well i didn't die when i did it
08:50:12 <elliott> orc warriors with crossbows firing annoying crap
08:51:25 <elliott> how many firings do wands last
08:51:30 <monqy> depends on the wand
08:51:34 <monqy> you don't have to wand yet
08:52:02 <monqy> but don't just stand in front of them and let them shoot at you either
08:53:01 <elliott> how many of these guys are there
08:54:43 <elliott> i have to manouvre around toget to it
08:54:45 <elliott> which puts me in firing range of
08:55:07 <monqy> what's on the other side of the wall
08:55:10 <monqy> do you have scrying
08:55:25 <monqy> do you have scrying yet
08:55:29 <elliott> i dont know what that is :(
08:55:33 <elliott> Patashu: no, but it can hit through the fungus in one turn
08:55:48 <elliott> monqy: im not so good with piety
08:56:33 <monqy> well whatever you do don't charge up into the palce where everyone will shoot at you
08:56:50 <elliott> do centaurs not know how to kill toadstools
08:57:27 <Patashu> why are you resting so close to the place anyway
08:57:32 <Patashu> why not give yourself more cover
08:57:35 <monqy> to heal quickly you should eat corpses
08:57:38 <monqy> if there are any left
08:57:53 <Patashu> eating as a ghoul restores hp
08:58:01 <monqy> Patashu: never played ghouls?
08:58:08 <Patashu> haven't played most races still
08:59:58 <elliott> how long would it take me to retreat
09:00:08 <Patashu> four orc warriors at once = bleugh
09:00:13 <Patashu> and looks like there's more shit behind it
09:00:24 <Patashu> you have digging charges right?
09:00:25 <monqy> retreat or greater servant
09:00:27 <Patashu> why not zap digging downwards and hide
09:00:45 <monqy> why not zap digging upwards, yum
09:01:16 <monqy> Patashu: it's stone
09:01:23 <monqy> i thought you were making a nethack joke
09:01:59 <elliott> could i levitate over the walls
09:03:49 <elliott> because that's a lot of steps
09:03:50 <monqy> you can't leve over walls
09:03:52 <elliott> and they have ranged weapons
09:04:01 <monqy> lev would only help with that wayer
09:04:01 <elliott> that was one of my options
09:04:08 <elliott> alright, retreat to deep water?
09:04:10 <monqy> you'd be able to cut a corner
09:04:15 <elliott> then lev over the water? ok
09:04:25 <monqy> then of course get off of the dep water
09:04:29 <monqy> so you don't drown
09:04:35 -!- MoALTz has joined.
09:07:03 <elliott> i think i'll buy the two heal wounds
09:07:10 <Patashu> hela wounds is good to buy
09:07:13 <Patashu> speed isn't bad to buy either
09:07:47 <elliott> Patashu: the speed's a bit pricey
09:08:00 <Patashu> see what's in the other stores, then
09:08:29 <elliott> f - the cursed -2,-3 mace "Othri" {slay orc, rC+ rN+ Int+1} 243 gold
09:09:24 <elliott> the grimoire of the rocks and good luck
09:09:27 <elliott> what kind of a title is that
09:09:49 <monqy> elliott: see {good names[14]}
09:10:05 <elliott> 10:09 <Henzell> good names[14/18]: Sif Muna's Arcane Secrets of Secret Knowledge {god gift}
09:10:27 <itidus20> so contradiction in my interpretation
09:10:46 <monqy> there was also a book of Burning Companions or somethingoroher but it got deleted :(
09:11:33 <Patashu> just leave orc and go do lair
09:11:49 <monqy> elliott: just let this be a learning experience
09:12:00 <elliott> monqy: are you saying "just be ok with dyin"
09:12:29 <monqy> you'll only have to worry about the warg
09:12:32 <monqy> and they're weak anyway right
09:13:05 <monqy> dunno what it means
09:13:56 <elliott> that was the wrong downstair
09:14:22 <elliott> or are orc warlords too hard for that
09:14:33 <monqy> elliott: bend space
09:14:51 <elliott> ashe reasons: you want to die
09:14:56 <monqy> im helping u appreciate the gods you aren't with
09:15:07 <monqy> slouch slouch slouche step from time uhhh
09:15:08 <elliott> can i confuse the warlord maybe??
09:15:15 <monqy> warlorde doesnt like being confused
09:15:23 <elliott> 10:15 <Gretell> orc warlord (o) | Spd: 10 | Int: normal (items) | HD: 15 | HP: 88-141 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Dam: 32 | Res: magic(60) | Chunks: contam | XP: 2257.
09:15:25 <Patashu> then read tele or whatever you were going to do
09:15:35 <elliott> i mean that's less than the hydrae were doing
09:15:36 <monqy> it also has a wepon
09:15:45 <monqy> and it's not spread out over multiple hits
09:15:45 <Patashu> and it's 32 dam in one attack
09:15:48 <elliott> Patashu: there's not really an "away"
09:16:03 <Patashu> now you're only slightly mauled
09:16:13 <monqy> what are you doing ?
09:17:04 <monqy> maybe you can handle a hydra now
09:17:40 <Patashu> why did you uncurse the helmet too
09:17:44 <elliott> Patashu: didn't have a choice
09:17:54 <Patashu> why do you think the scrolls ask you under ash
09:18:33 <elliott> monqy: i was gonna do lair right
09:18:39 <monqy> you were going to plate
09:19:02 <monqy> nah just get a better plat
09:20:05 <monqy> goldon draggins and floor, respectively
09:20:16 <monqy> alternatively: acquirement, possibly from xom/oka/geneicard
09:20:23 <Patashu> I'm going to make an unrandart armour with 53 base AC
09:20:26 <Patashu> but it slows and +muts you
09:20:46 <elliott> armour where you can't take any damage but you die immediately
09:20:47 <monqy> Patashu: ghoul of chei "unstoppable wrecking machine"
09:20:58 <Patashu> elliott: well some things pierce gda
09:21:09 <Patashu> so it'd be funny when you suddenly got murdered by hellfire or af_cold or whatever it was
09:21:33 <elliott> ok now im actually laughing in real life at monqy's chei jokes
09:22:05 <Patashu> there are crawls to be crawled
09:22:52 <elliott> why are hill giants yellow
09:22:57 <elliott> i'm still fucking scared of hill giants
09:23:04 <Patashu> optimal danger calculation algorithm
09:23:05 <monqy> hill giants probably aren't so bad by now
09:23:50 <elliott> Patashu: ("hydras" honestly)
09:23:52 <Patashu> <Gretell> hydra (D) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | Int: insect | HD: 13 | HP: 54-91 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Dam: 18 per head | Fl: amphibious, regen | Res: magic(52), poison, drown | Chunks: poison+contam | XP: 1215.
09:23:57 <monqy> but not worker ants
09:24:31 <elliott> wow it's a party of monsters i hate
09:24:47 <monqy> duck behind the corner
09:25:26 <Patashu> btw, brogue's doors are better than crawl's doors
09:25:32 <Patashu> you can use them to own the shit out of brogue centaurs, pixies, etc
09:25:32 <monqy> autoexplore into dour, a party in a dour
09:25:34 <elliott> i'll walk up to that door and open it
09:26:36 <Patashu> you're never going to use those 12 arrows of dispersal
09:26:40 <elliott> will anything pick up those arrows of dispersal
09:26:43 <elliott> that's the only reason i have them
09:27:03 <Patashu> you should drop them on some level you've already cleared then
09:27:12 <Patashu> also, drop scrolls of enchant weapon
09:27:15 <Patashu> you can't enchant your hands
09:27:43 <monqy> you're not very bound
09:27:47 <monqy> probably explains the low piett
09:27:49 <elliott> i guess i can drop this 5-zaps wand of consuion
09:27:55 <elliott> i don't have anything to do the binding with ok
09:29:10 <elliott> great, that dragon burns scrolls
09:29:15 <elliott> if i drop them will they be ok
09:30:05 <Patashu> it only burns scrolls in your inventory
09:30:10 <Patashu> (brogue is far more realistic)
09:30:27 <monqy> brogue is the other way around isn't it
09:30:32 <monqy> burns floor but not inventory
09:30:33 <elliott> You are covered in liquid flames!
09:30:33 <elliott> Your scroll of detect curse catches fire!
09:30:33 <elliott> One of your 2 scrolls of amnesia catches fire!
09:30:52 <elliott> don't stop dropping stuff!!
09:30:53 <Patashu> it takes multiple turns to drop multiple things
09:30:55 <elliott> how do i force it to drop stuff
09:31:09 <monqy> Patashu: best thing in brogue: monkey steals scroll, incendiary dart monkey, monkey dies, scroll burns
09:31:13 <Patashu> so you should start with stuff you value most
09:31:20 <Patashu> monqy: that happened to me once except with staff of firebolt
09:31:47 <monqy> I always forget not to burn monkeys before making sure they didn't steal a scroll
09:32:22 <elliott> how do i get more carrying capacity
09:32:35 <Patashu> drop shit you're never going to use
09:33:29 <Patashu> packrat == "I don't know how valuable any of this is so I'm going to keep ALL OF IT"
09:33:37 <elliott> yell at me if it's a terrible idea monqy
09:33:38 <monqy> you;ll want 27 str for gda, or what is it 24str for cpa?
09:33:42 <monqy> uhh what are you doing
09:33:46 <monqy> what hydra is this
09:33:54 <monqy> soften it up with wands first, at least
09:33:59 <monqy> and put on your gloves etc etc
09:34:04 <elliott> oh wait they can't open doors
09:34:28 <elliott> it was packed behind a door
09:34:42 <shachaf> elliott: Did you ever figure out cofree?
09:34:42 <monqy> put your gloves on
09:34:50 <monqy> don't hit the hydra
09:34:58 <monqy> it'll grow more heads
09:35:08 <shachaf> monqy: can i hit the hydra
09:35:34 <shachaf> monqy: you mean 'maybe'. learne to spelle
09:35:50 <elliott> it took me years to develop this plan
09:36:12 <monqy> elliott: have fun if it fails
09:37:00 <shachaf> elliott: WAS THERE A SPACE AT THE END OF YOUR SENTENCE
09:37:03 <elliott> i've learned my lessons you bastards
09:37:11 <monqy> don't let them merge and don't let them surround you
09:37:16 <elliott> how do i stop them merging
09:37:23 <monqy> don't let them touch each other
09:37:29 <Patashu> monqy: I think those are mutually exclusie
09:38:04 <Patashu> in my experience they only merge if they want to get closer to you but can't
09:38:11 <Patashu> so it's better to get surrounded by them
09:38:27 <monqy> getting surrounded lets ac apply more
09:38:47 <Patashu> it's like you're in the lair already
09:38:49 <monqy> large slime creatures aren't so bad, but watch out for titanics
09:38:52 <Patashu> hydras, hippogriffs and frogs
09:38:59 <elliott> they just want to make me feel at home
09:39:03 <Patashu> I died by tabbing a titanic once
09:39:17 <elliott> 08:03 <Sequell> 146. elliott the Impaler (L15 DsAK), worshipper of Lugonu, blasted by Aizul (poison arrow) on D:17 on 2012-04-26, with 84580 points after 43254 turns and 3:34:58.
09:39:24 <elliott> and look at the turn count on my game
09:39:31 <shachaf> howe do you figure out your highe score
09:39:41 <elliott> what kind of fast turn frenzy happened in my highscore game
09:39:47 <elliott> also how can i see my score or can't I
09:40:28 <Patashu> did you do orc in that dsak game
09:40:38 <shachaf> you have scorede 0 out of a hundrede possible points
09:40:43 <shachaf> you have reached the rank of Novice
09:40:49 <elliott> maybe i did and it was that
09:43:13 <Patashu> eeeverything is faster than you
09:43:19 <Patashu> so you want to kite back as much as opssible
09:43:40 <monqy> orb spiders, Patashu
09:43:52 <monqy> demonic crawlers too uhh
09:44:03 <monqy> elliott: why not try it and see!!
09:44:11 <Patashu> before thinking about runes
09:44:12 <elliott> i'm super-invested in this character
09:44:13 <monqy> spider spider spider
09:44:21 <elliott> does that mean it gets me closer to winning
09:44:26 <elliott> ok but yeah i'm gonna do lair first sorry
09:44:34 <Sgeo> elliott, you got a Rune/
09:44:36 <monqy> you'll want to do spider eventually
09:44:39 <Sgeo> You need 3 runes
09:44:43 <monqy> it's just a matter of when
09:44:59 <monqy> some people save getting runes until right before zot but
09:45:08 <Patashu> runes do absolutely nothing for you
09:45:26 <monqy> diving rune branches right before winning is: boring
09:45:33 <monqy> doing them early is: fun
09:45:38 <Patashu> if you hate being bored, do branchless
09:45:56 <monqy> had hunger problems, rip
09:46:05 <elliott> let loose the dogs of etc.
09:46:06 <Patashu> do you go for hell or pan runes
09:46:19 <Patashu> maybe pan, and use cblink/ctele?
09:47:32 <monqy> it's choker than that
09:47:35 <monqy> wow what are you doing
09:47:42 <Patashu> the one you were in was ok
09:47:48 <elliott> sorry i'm not very good at this game
09:47:57 <monqy> so long as you don't die
09:48:04 <monqy> or if you do die and learn from this
09:48:25 <elliott> dying and learning from it thing
09:48:50 <itidus20> this character will live forever!
09:50:42 <elliott> SURE WOULD BE NICE IF I WAS WITH A GOD THAT GAVE ME USEFUL SHIT FOR FIGHTING RIGHT NOW
09:50:59 <elliott> monqy: can i take one down in melee, i forget
09:51:06 <elliott> 10:50 <Gretell> death yak (Y) | Spd: 10 | Int: animal | HD: 14 | HP: 57-95 | AC/EV: 9/5 | Dam: 30 | Res: magic(93) | Chunks: poison+contam | XP: 1059.
09:51:34 <Patashu> why do death yaks have such high MR
09:51:49 <elliott> design goals for death yaks: kill
09:51:54 <monqy> elliott: apparently ashe wrath ends after you gain 2 exp levels, so if you abandon ashe you want to do it soon so it'l end soon " i guess"
09:52:02 <monqy> elliott: of course if you don't want to abandon ahse thats ok too
09:52:16 <elliott> why did you second ais' recommendation of ashe i mean honestly
09:52:20 <elliott> i'm not going to abandon him but
09:52:29 <elliott> i would appreciate summon powerful shit more than
09:52:41 <Patashu> pray over the scrolls of remove curse
09:52:48 <elliott> i have scrolls of remove curse???
09:53:55 <elliott> ashey really likes bondage
09:54:23 <itidus20> i guess you can still be pious inspite of cursing your god
09:54:48 <elliott> ok reading those scrolls should be safe
09:54:53 <Patashu> which is really really good
09:55:05 <Patashu> also, there aren't many bad scrolls
09:55:35 <monqy> slime is usually avoided on 3runers
09:55:40 <elliott> how can i superscroll through inventory
09:55:48 <monqy> pageups/downs/spacebar
09:55:54 <elliott> btw i still have a box of beasts i'm planning to use on zot:5
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09:58:15 <monqy> hydra regenerayts h pquickly
09:58:21 <monqy> its probably at fulkl health by now
09:58:34 <itidus21> @tell itidus20 elliott still has a box of beasts to use on zot:5
09:59:07 <elliott> 10:58 <Gretell> kober (L14 KoBe) entered a Bailey. (Bailey)
09:59:10 <elliott> monqy: help i thought baileys were gone
09:59:17 <Patashu> what are you talking about
09:59:23 <elliott> 10:59 <Henzell> labyrinth[1/5]: Look for a cyan \ (or arch depending on your character set) on a level where you hear an "ancient clock" or "distant snort". (1-in-15 chance per level, once per game). Hurry, it times out after a while (you get urgent-sounding messages). Note that magic mapping is likely to show where the lab entrance is; however, it may appear to be a shop.
09:59:26 <elliott> monqy said baileys were removed
09:59:33 <Patashu> why would you take them out
10:00:10 <monqy> i didnt say they were removed
10:00:11 <elliott> 10:59 <Henzell> labyrinth[3/5]: No monster generation (you might find a few hungry ghosts, though); the major dangers are starvation (expect to use a ration or two) and the minotaur (hits for 35+20, so have awesome AC|offense or a powerful ranged attack). If you have a decent amount of food, and don't have teleportitis it's usually safe to explore.
10:00:14 <elliott> this thing sounds super boring
10:00:17 <monqy> i said that you missed one
10:00:21 <monqy> labyrinth is awufl
10:00:24 <elliott> can autoexplore do the labyrinth for me
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10:00:53 <monqy> it's like a cold volcano
10:01:01 <Patashu> the game is seriously making you pick between lab and ice cave
10:02:16 <Patashu> you're only partially bound
10:03:27 <Patashu> get out of the ice statues' fovs
10:03:49 <Patashu> also, you should probably drop all your potions
10:04:04 <Patashu> drop all your potions next to the exit
10:04:27 <elliott> so what's with the statues
10:04:36 <Patashu> do you have any wands of disintegration?
10:04:51 <Patashu> ice statue (8) | Spd: 16 | Int: high | HD: 8 | HP: 70 | AC/EV: 12/1 | Fl: non-living, !sil | Res: magic(immune), cold+++, elec++, poison, drown, rot+++, neg+++, torm | Vul: fire | XP: 685 | Sp: b.cold (3d16), throw icicle (3d16), freezing cloud (2d17), ice beast.
10:05:19 <Patashu> you can probably just melee them but be ready to back up
10:05:22 <Patashu> they won't regen since they're statues
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10:06:16 <elliott> Marking area around the ice statue as unsafe for travelling. x2
10:06:42 <Patashu> wow, I didn't know the game places the exclsuions if you lift them
10:07:05 <Patashu> good place to use scrying btw
10:08:28 <Patashu> necromancer (@) | Spd: 10 | Int: high (items) | HD: 10 | HP: 26-53 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Dam: 6 | Fl: evil, spellcaster | Res: magic(53) | Vul: holy | Chunks: contam | XP: 594 | Sp: b.cold (3d18), b.draining (3d15), animate dead, simulacrum / b.fire (3d18), pain (d13), invisibility, animate dead.
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10:09:43 <elliott> monqy: did you see my NEW PLATE ARMOUR!!
10:10:15 <monqy> it won't be your end game armoure
10:10:16 <Patashu> btw, why did you curse your splint instead of your helm or cloak
10:10:25 <monqy> you';ll want something with resistances
10:10:36 <monqy> like GDA, or at least plate of rF, which i think you have in shope
10:10:46 <monqy> (or was that game died)
10:10:47 <Patashu> plate of rf would be good for zot
10:10:57 <monqy> Patashu: might find gda on v8 first!
10:10:59 <elliott> monqy: i didn't say end game!! but
10:11:10 <elliott> plate armour gives gdr right
10:11:22 <elliott> nope, it's cold resistance i have in shope
10:11:36 <Patashu> plate of mr would be good too
10:12:35 <Patashu> pick up your potions on the way out
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10:13:56 <monqy> what did you do i wasnt watching
10:13:57 <elliott> i didn't even get a new high score
10:14:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, the Arch fortune database must include the sex part of -off by default.
10:15:31 <Patashu> that was close to max damage the hydra could have gone, given your gdr
10:15:46 <Patashu> no, max damage would have been 75
10:15:47 <elliott> i didn't switch armour yet
10:17:07 <elliott> i feel like i'm getting better
10:17:16 <elliott> and that was YASD that i should have seen coming
10:17:27 <elliott> otoh i don't remember the 8-headed hydra hitting that hard
10:18:19 <Patashu> a hydra can hit for up to 18*(1-gdr)*number of heads on any turn
10:18:21 <elliott> 11:17 <Zicher> Oh crap. Spiders made it as an official rune branch now ... Nasty.
10:18:25 <Patashu> it's just that they tend NOT to
10:18:28 <elliott> monqy: you should totally play!!!!!!!
10:18:43 <monqy> ugh i want to sleep
10:19:02 <elliott> that's why it'd be extra fun
10:19:03 <monqy> the only reason i'm still awake is i have to read these papers for tomorrow
10:19:07 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Wed May 2 03:19:04 2012
10:20:08 <elliott> monqy: you should dive. you love diving!
10:20:21 <monqy> can io dive and read at ther same time
10:21:47 <monqy> i'll dive once then go back to reading
10:23:14 <Patashu> stay at xl1 and get as deep as possible?
10:23:19 <elliott> i don't think monqy has a goal
10:23:36 <Patashu> kobold with a whip of electruction
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10:28:35 <elliott> monqy: is there a way to get like
10:28:38 <elliott> my top N games froms equell
10:29:10 <monqy> ddepends on what you mean by way, get, top
10:29:32 <elliott> top: ordered by descending score
10:30:08 <monqy> there are other ways too if there's something specific you want from each game like
10:30:24 <monqy> oh wait I don't know if you can do s=sc ugh
10:30:37 <monqy> i forget how to do it any other ways
10:31:36 <elliott> 11:31 <Sequell> 147. elliott the Impaler (L15 DsAK), worshipper of Lugonu, blasted by Aizul (poison arrow) on D:17 on 2012-04-26, with 84580 points after 43254 turns and 3:34:58.
10:31:37 <elliott> 11:31 <Sequell> 146. elliott the Brawler (L14 GhMo), worshipper of Ashenzari, slain by a seven-headed hydra in Lair:7 on 2012-05-02, with 45580 points after 33481 turns and 4:00:03.
10:31:41 <elliott> 11:31 <Sequell> 145. elliott the Swashbuckler (L12 KoBe), worshipper of Trog, slain by a yak on D:12 on 2012-04-22, with 16802 points after 17648 turns and 2:04:04.
10:31:45 <elliott> 11:31 <Sequell> 144. elliott the Grappler (L11 GhMo), worshipper of Makhleb, blasted by Harold (bolt of fire) in D:11 on 2012-04-30, with 10182 points after 11624 turns and 1:19:43.
10:32:41 <Patashu> you were better than you were the last time I saw you play
10:32:53 <Patashu> some day you'll have a mind shattering revelation and be like
10:34:29 <elliott> i know how to play crawl you just
10:34:40 <elliott> hit things but mostly run away
10:34:56 <elliott> it's just too boring for me to play it that way, so I have to optimise a strategy that involves less running away instead
10:35:37 <Patashu> maybe you should worship chei
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10:35:59 <Patashu> it's like admitting you're bad
10:36:05 <monqy> worship chei do it do it do it
10:36:26 <Patashu> when a problem comes along
10:36:40 <Patashu> I forget the rest of the lyrics
10:36:51 <elliott> maybe ill go ghck and abandon xom for chei if i'm feeling particularly stupid one day
10:36:55 <elliott> practice for my feck of chei run
10:38:08 -!- cheater has joined.
10:38:10 <elliott> but you won't laugh when help, Felid Chaos Knight of Cheibriados, ascends to victory
10:38:45 <Patashu> xom wrath is the same as worshipping xom, right
10:38:51 <monqy> I've "won" a febe of chei before
10:39:15 <monqy> died to trog wrath
10:39:16 <elliott> Patashu: yes, as I understand it
10:39:23 <elliott> 11:39 <Henzell> xom wrath[1/1]: Abandonment: 50 penance, Xom acts. Retribution: Xom acts. (On average, this is worse than just worshipping Xom; but the worst case is the same, so if you are prepared to deal with Happy Xom you should be fine with Mad Xom)
10:39:46 <monqy> xom wrath is less frequent than xom worship too isn't it
10:40:25 <elliott> monqy: i came up with a more extreme (and less possible) version of my all-god run goal
10:40:31 <elliott> so that nobody else can steal it from me by doing it
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10:40:56 <elliott> you have to go through every god, and must, for at least one turn, have the wrath of every single god (except the one you're on) active
10:41:02 <elliott> you're not allowed to switch gods until you reach full piety
10:41:11 <elliott> god-pleasing-and-abandoning speedrun
10:42:24 <elliott> monqy's silence is a silence of awe
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10:46:37 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10407003/rotation-matrix-haskell
10:46:39 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10408471/rotation-matrix-pbmfile-haskell
10:46:41 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10412051/haskell-how-do-i-rotate-a-pbm-image-by-90
10:48:28 <Deewiant> The third redirects to the first
10:48:39 <elliott> Deewiant: Append ?noredirect=1.
10:48:42 <elliott> Or log in to Stack Overflow.
10:48:51 <elliott> Duplicates without answers are automatically redirected for anonymous users these days.
10:49:00 <elliott> (The idea being that they don't really care about clicking a link to get the answer they want.)
10:49:12 <elliott> Spoiler: it's the same question.
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10:55:54 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Wed May 2 03:55:53 2012
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11:06:22 <elliott> @tell monqy i swear i have seen the foreground in eliot.png somewhere else before help
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11:15:35 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
11:16:54 <fizzie> elliott: eliot.png == http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj299/sonic_jctheking/ELIOT.png right? (I asked Google.)
11:17:19 <elliott> 08:05:37: <monqy> Patashu: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/shachaf.png http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/eliot.png
11:23:25 <elliott> fizzie: THANKS YOU'RE WELCOME.
11:27:55 <ion> fizzie: That image was pretty awesome.
11:28:02 <ion> YOUR WELCOME
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12:14:55 <ion> elliott: Not yet, a friend came to visit.
12:15:02 <lambdabot> Local time for ion is Wed May 2 15:15:02 2012
12:15:54 <elliott> Maybe I should play again. Roguelikes are addictive.
12:31:03 <ion> ♥ Avishai Cohen – Dreaming http://open.spotify.com/track/7uPARjX8n4Sf4ndZ9alTxk live: http://youtu.be/yII_XhK5khw
12:31:09 <ion> elliott: Yeah
12:31:25 <elliott> ion: Does esolangs.org have an AAAA record for you?
12:31:56 <ion> esolangs.org.86400INAAAA2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:9fdd
12:32:13 <ion> esolangs.org. 86400 IN AAAA 2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:9fdd
12:32:26 <elliott> Thanks. Do you get connected via IPv6 when going to http://esolangs.org/, if you can check that?
12:33:12 <elliott> Oh, I suppose I can check from server logs.
12:33:36 <ion> Seems to work.
12:33:42 <elliott> 2001:0:c38c:c38c:3886:4813:ac6e:121f - - [02/May/2012:12:33:30 +0000] "GET /wiki/Main_Page HTTP/1.1" 200 18627 "-" "curl/7.22.0 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) libcurl/7.22.0 OpenSSL/1.0.1 zlib/1.2.3.4 libidn/1.23 librtmp/2.3"
12:33:53 <elliott> (What about with a regular browser? I don't know if they do anything weird with IPv6.)
12:34:20 <ion> Mine might prefer IPv4 since the IPv6 connection is just a Teredo tunnel. I wonder how to override that?
12:34:30 <elliott> Well, that's what I'm interested in :P
12:35:33 <elliott> 83.145.237.224 - - [02/May/2012:12:35:21 +0000] "GET /.ipv4.sixxs.org HTTP/1.1" 404 142 "http://www.sixxs.net/tools/gateway/" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Ubuntu; Linux x86_64; rv:12.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/12.0"
12:35:36 <ion> http://esolangs.org.ipv4.sixxs.org/
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12:37:09 * elliott wonders how to find out what DNS server is being treated as authoritative for a domain.
12:37:17 <elliott> I don't get an authority section back from "dig esolangs.org" here.
12:37:34 <elliott> So I can't tell if the change has propagated here or not (since I don't know how to request AAAA records when on IPv4, or indeed if I can).
12:37:43 <ion> dig +trace esolangs.org
12:38:00 <ion> might give some useful information
12:38:43 <elliott> (Also, does http://esolangs.org/forum/ have messed up styling for you?)
12:39:54 <fizzie> I still get esolangs.org pointing at ns[1-4].afraid.org here at work. Based on the decrementing TTLs, it'll be correct after 6406 more seconds.
12:40:51 <elliott> fizzie: How long do I have to wait before it's propagated to everywhere, theoretically?
12:41:23 <elliott> Hmm, how odd. The styles end up messed up iff I enable JavaScript.
12:42:54 <fizzie> "dig @b0.org.afilias-nst.org esolangs.org ns" reports a TTL of 86400 seconds, i.e. a day. If it was that also before, theoretically it can take up to that long.
12:43:46 <elliott> It happened 16 hours ago. I guess I'll hold off until it's 24 before posting on the community portal.
12:43:58 <ion> elliott: It does. And a bunch of spam.
12:44:16 <elliott> ion: Yeah, I know about the spam, it's the styling I'm concerned about.
12:44:27 <elliott> ion: Does it work if you click "Headline"?
12:44:39 <elliott> It does for me. (And promptly breaks again if I select another style.)
12:46:24 <ion> elliott: Oh. Headline doesn’t change it, but i’m beginning to suspect it’s intended to look like that.
12:46:43 <elliott> By "messed up", I mean "as if the page had no styling at all".
12:46:53 <elliott> If it's grey and orangey, that's right.
12:47:03 <ion> It had the “Headline” styling for me all the time.
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12:47:40 <elliott> Does selecting the other styles work?
12:48:18 <elliott> I bet it's a Safari thing.
12:49:04 <ion> Try clearing your cache.
12:51:17 <elliott> Did you know Firefox sucks?
12:52:01 <elliott> Yeah, it works fine in Firefox.
12:58:05 <ion> How to save the world: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17896081
13:02:01 <fizzie> Sounds like a good recipe for catching more hobbyist chili growers.
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13:25:07 <elliott> that's expected behaviour for flash
13:25:32 <ion> it did used tod bed
13:25:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, in speech "it used to be" is perfectly normal, but...
13:26:22 <elliott> makes it sound a lot less dumb.
13:26:48 <ion> I’d like to hear from an authoritative source whether the erroneous-looking “didn’t used to be” is an exception to the rule or whether it should always be “didn’t use to be”.
13:33:44 <elliott> ion: Have you ever met *America*?
13:35:32 <elliott> ion: W/ e/ l/ c/ o/ m/ e/ - t/ o/ - A/ m/ e/ r/ i/ c/ a/ .
13:35:43 <elliott> XqXqXqXqXqXqXqXqXqXqXqXqXqXqXqXqXqXq
13:37:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Whe rei sthetw othous andan dthree I orde red?
13:40:14 <ion> The sitting girl represents PHP software, the spray represents SQL injections and the standing girl represents attackers from the Internet. http://i.imgur.com/SZjwe.jpg
13:41:38 <elliott> Haters gonna hate (and get their aims hecked).
13:47:03 <elliott> ^rainbow Welcome to Phantom_Hoover!
13:47:03 <fungot> Welcome to Phantom_Hoover!
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13:54:20 <ion> That makes drinking and driving look so fun i’ll have to try it. http://youtu.be/tYMYv1zsAxE
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14:35:36 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/sxMlF.jpg
14:41:30 <ion> Someone #elsewhere didn’t get it and he keeps proving to us it’s the same person by linking Wikipedia etc. articles. And the rest of us on the channel disregard his lines and talk about how it’s probably the similar hairstyle and the eye color, and how they’d surely look almost like twin brothers if you photoshopped a similar beard to the Nirvana drummer’s photo.
14:42:19 <elliott> ion: The weirdest thing is how they both have the same name.
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16:52:19 <Ngevd> Had de ja vu when reading today's LMoO
16:52:50 <Ngevd> This has happened a couple of times with CoaP too
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17:21:03 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_(Obama-Biden_campaign_slogan)
17:21:18 <elliott> Especially that "Controversy" section.
17:24:09 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hopiakuta/_DonFphrnqTaub_Persina_juneteenth_2006_(_Oy_vey,_D._F._T._P._22_26,_18_June_2006_71.102.31.67_)_%7E%7E_%7E%7E This is good too.
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18:18:36 <elliott> (also monqy's self-portraits of me and shachaf)
18:18:39 <elliott> "exciting esoteric happenings"
18:18:52 <elliott> 08:05:37: <monqy> Patashu: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/shachaf.png http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/eliot.png
18:23:31 <fizzie> That's not eliot the hedgehog.
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18:38:06 * elliott predicts oerjan will give up on logreading today.
18:38:37 * oerjan confirms he already did.
18:38:44 <elliott> 19:18 <elliott> 08:05:37: <monqy> Patashu: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/shachaf.png http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/eliot.png
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18:39:53 * oerjan wonders if there's a common meme in these he doesn't know about.
18:40:30 <olsner> I think they're just weird
18:41:55 <elliott> oerjan: they are monqy's self-portraits of shachaf and I. the former derives from my self-portrait of shachaf, http://ompldr.org/vZDhvag
18:42:25 <elliott> (Which derives from http://slbkbs.org/sb/1.png... but you've seen mine.)
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18:45:29 <Ngevd> I'm back from OUTSIDE
18:46:07 <Ngevd> The outside is a scary place
18:46:18 <elliott> i'm asking how you managed a whole 7 minutes
18:46:33 <Ngevd> Neccessity is the mother of more things than invention
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18:50:34 <nortti> it wont let me in with or without ssh
18:51:11 <nortti> olsner: I am using webchat
18:52:43 <elliott> no, it's definitely ssh :)
18:53:21 <nortti> it says "This server is for SASL users only"
18:53:58 <Ngevd> South American Sign Language?
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18:55:36 <elliott> nortti: Then you're connecting to the wrong server.
18:55:45 <elliott> The SASL stuff is for Tor.
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18:56:38 <nortti> elliott: I am connecting to irc.freenode.net
18:57:00 <elliott> then there's some other issue with your configuration :)
18:57:05 <elliott> anyway, I'm going to sleep
18:57:52 <olsner> enumerable and innumerable sound almost the same, but are pretty much opposites (I believe)
18:58:21 <nortti> elliott: strange how it stopped working on both my phone and computer with configurations that worked before
18:58:54 <elliott> googling suggests it's a common issue with mobile providers or something.
18:59:13 <olsner> funny enough, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/enumerable points out the potential for confusion but still managed to have two incorrect examples (out of three)
18:59:14 <elliott> in any case it's pretty obviously not freenode's fault or nobody would be able to connect (well, to the same server, anyway, round-robin and all that)
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20:26:23 <Taneb> Oh damn, I've opened two
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21:12:44 <zzo38> Except for the White player's first turn, each player may, twice per game, move a piece with duplication meaning a copy is left at its original location. You may not duplicate queens and kings (although pawns can be duplicated). Also, pawns can use such a move while capturing or non-capturing; other pieces can use duplication only for non-capturing.
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21:29:35 <kmc> "A steam dummy or dummy engine... was a steam engine enclosed in a wooden box structure made to resemble a railroad passenger coach.... It was thought that the more familiar appearance of a coach presented by a steam dummy, as compared to a conventional engine, would be less likely to frighten horses when these trains had to operate in city streets. Later it was discovered that it was actually the noise and motion of the operating gear of a
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21:33:33 <ion> the operating gear of a$
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21:36:44 <kmc> "Later it was discovered that it was actually the noise and motion of the operating gear of a steam engine that frightened horses, rather than the unfamiliar outlines of a steam engine."
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22:54:24 <Gregor> elliott: BE PRESENT AND OFFENDED
22:54:37 <Gregor> Anybody else: BE OFFENDED
22:55:01 <pikhq> I hereby declare /usr banned.
22:55:10 <Gregor> Oh, then you'll like this:
22:56:09 <Gregor> While everyone else tries to eschew /usr in preference of /, I eschew / in preference of /usr 8-D
22:57:25 <ais523> I actually discovered the etymology behind /usr a while back
22:57:43 <ais523> or, well, stumbled across someone else explaining it
22:57:58 <ais523> it seems that in the original UNIX system, it was for home dirs, and on a separate disk from everything else
22:58:17 <ais523> then they ran out of disk space on /, so they started putting things that weren't needed immediately on boot onto the /usr disk because they were short of space
22:58:27 <ais523> then they bought another disk, and decided to move the home dirs there…
23:01:41 <ais523> so, /usr is actually for users, makes perfect sense
23:02:20 <Gregor> pikhq: So do you want to know WHY I have this layout? X-D
23:03:08 <fizzie> http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html was linked-to from somewhere recently, it's about /usr.
23:03:09 <pikhq> Gregor: Because each program has a seperate view of /usr.
23:03:35 <Gregor> Oh. Well yeah. So why are you so offended then? X-D
23:03:48 <pikhq> Should totally do it on / instead. :P
23:04:05 <Gregor> Yeah, /home and /var would really appreciate that.
23:04:32 <Gregor> And /boot, /dev, /proc, /sys for that matter.
23:04:40 <pikhq> *Clearly* you need to have those as packages.
23:05:20 <Gregor> Unfortunately, aufs is sorta too lame to sensibly make /home a package.
23:06:31 <Gregor> Its options for deciding where new files go are bugging me, but kinda work only because usually you only put new files in /usr if you're installing a new package.
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00:42:40 <zzo38> Hello; do you want.................
01:19:52 <zzo38> In the Dungeons&Dragons game I will make it my character's job to write down everything about the haunted castle and so on, in a book to keep in the royal archives and in the library, so that next time anyone need to go in there, they can know what to expect
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01:52:39 <lambdabot> itidus20: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:52:49 <lambdabot> itidus21 said 15h 54m 6s ago: elliott still has a box of beasts to use on zot:5
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04:20:40 <coppro> oh my god someone actually tried to play the death waltz
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04:47:16 <HackEgo> 2011-08-26.txt:23:47:46: <ais523> [20:52] <Brushy> Johnson Plays Waltz Citing Beethoven's "Your From Round Pittsburg?" Use Escalating Overalls You Damn Jackasses... Just kidding!"
04:48:02 <HackEgo> 2010-07-11.txt:07:19:52: <coppro> I missed the Death Waltz bit where the upper staff gets a note below the bottom staff on ledger lines :D
04:48:30 <HackEgo> 2012-05-03.txt:04:47:55: <itidus20> `log waltz
04:48:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24809
04:49:14 <Sgeo> monqy, there was an update at ??:10
04:57:25 <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCgT94A7WgI
05:00:06 <Sgeo> coppro, embedding disabled on request when I try to use youtuberepeat
05:00:13 <Sgeo> And it crashes when I try to view it normally
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05:01:03 <Sgeo> Oh, I've seen this
05:03:27 <Sgeo> coppro, did they skip bar 7 correctly?
05:03:46 <coppro> unsurprisingly, it's difficult to follow along to the music
05:04:18 <coppro> although I think they forgot to repeat the first "bar" 9 times
05:06:21 <Sgeo> I don't see that
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05:47:42 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see monqy's self-portrait of me?
05:48:28 <kmc> i think you asked me that yesterday
05:48:33 <kmc> is this the one with bonzi buddy?
05:49:36 <shachaf> elliott also drew a self-portrait of me with Bonzi Buddy.
05:49:41 <shachaf> But monqy drew a different one.
05:49:51 <shachaf> 11:38 < elliott> 19:18 <elliott> 08:05:37: <monqy> Patashu: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/shachaf.png http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/eliot.png
05:53:01 <wyldstallyns> how do you make a self-portrait of someone else
05:53:11 <shachaf> wyldstallyns: Just like monqy did it.
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06:24:26 <Sgeo> @tell elliott I just found out about http://www.zincland.com/7drl/kobold/ from TVTropes. Have you tried it?
06:25:14 <monqy> has anyone not tried smart kobold?
06:25:36 <Sgeo> monqy, I haven't heard of it until now
06:25:45 <monqy> how did you live with yourself
06:25:49 <kmc> bah, next ThinkPad X series will have a chiclet keyboard
06:25:53 <kmc> http://www.ubergizmo.com/2012/05/lenovo-thinkpad-with-ivy-bridge-leaked/
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06:27:37 <shachaf> CHICLET KEYBOARD? MORE LIKE CHIC KEYBOARD, KORRECT?
06:27:48 <Deewiant> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiclet_keyboard
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06:31:33 <Sgeo> monqy has been UPDATEd
06:33:02 <kmc> Sgeo: it used to mean a particularly shitty kind of rubber membrane keypad seen on tv remotes etc
06:33:30 <kmc> now it's used to refer to laptop keyboards where individual keys are separated by empty space
06:33:38 <kmc> even though the key mechanism is (in general) much better than those shitty membranes
06:33:48 <kmc> the thinkpad chiclet keyboard allegedly has the same mechanism as the classic thinkpad keyboard
06:34:09 <shachaf> I'm using a Dell chiclet keyboard.
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06:36:03 <ais523> ooh, I have made a discovery!
06:36:22 <ais523> the wireless around here is really buggy (apparently it's a router issue), and normally won't connect at all, or only for short periods of time
06:36:33 <ais523> but it's more likely to connect immediately after the computer is rebooted
06:36:57 <ais523> and it seems that I can replicate that same high success chance by a rmmod/insmod on the wi-fi driver kernel module
06:37:05 <ais523> this could seriously save me a lot of time if it works
06:37:21 <shachaf> ais523: I once considered making an alias for "sudo sh -c 'rmmod iwlwifi; modprobe iwlwifi'"
06:37:27 <shachaf> But it never leaves my command line history.
06:37:32 <shachaf> So I didn't get around to doing it.
06:38:05 <kmc> yeah i have a script for that
06:38:19 <kmc> on linux you should look into whether your card tries to support 802.11n
06:38:21 <kmc> and if so, disable it
06:38:28 <kmc> that improved reliability a lot on one machine i tried
06:39:15 <shachaf> My card keeps developing exciting new bugs.
06:39:43 <shachaf> Under Ubuntu it was relatively stable once I got everything set up. Here in Debian it seems to break in subtly different ways on every few-week upgrade.
06:39:49 <shachaf> This is the reverse of kmc's experience, I think.
06:40:26 <kmc> debian unstable?
06:40:36 <kmc> i've never used ubuntu on my own machine for a long stretch of time
06:40:50 <kmc> just in VMs and on other people's machines here and there
06:41:14 <kmc> i think even debian unstable doesn't update the kernel that often?
06:41:27 <kmc> you could pin the kernel to a specific version
06:41:34 <shachaf> It might have to do with the fact that I'm using a monstrosity of a system around the kernel.
06:44:12 <Sgeo> http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/05/02/bosch-drowsiness-detection-system-to-make-alertness-tech-more-common/
06:45:49 <itidus20> because the world demands people to drive while sleepy
06:46:00 <kmc> shachaf: how so
06:46:29 <shachaf> I didn't feel like getting xmonad set up so I just tried to reproduce my lazy GNOME setup from before.
06:46:47 <shachaf> So now I'm running xfce but with gnome-settings-daemon because I wanted something that gnome-settings-daemon did.
06:46:58 <shachaf> And also I'm running both NetworkManager and WICD at the same time, I think?
06:47:20 <kmc> that sounds inadvisable
06:47:34 <shachaf> And I have a loop that runs "disable-capslock; xmodmap $REMAP_CAPSLOCK_THINGY" every two seconds, because xfce randomly interferes with GNOME's keyboard settings.
06:48:07 <shachaf> I should just set xmonad up.
06:48:13 <kmc> i use wpa-supplicant, nothing higher level than that
06:48:25 <shachaf> I managed to get GNOME 2 to a perfectly usable state. I don't need much out of my WM.
06:48:31 <shachaf> Why did they have to go mess it up?
06:48:56 <kmc> because GNOME
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06:49:53 <kmc> did you run into trouble setting up xmonad, or just haven't got around to it?
06:50:12 <kmc> also what about plain xfce, no GNOME?
06:50:36 <shachaf> Just haven't gotten around to it.
06:50:42 <shachaf> I have a really old xmonad.hs somewhere.
06:50:52 <kmc> yeah, upgrading those can be a pain
06:50:53 <shachaf> I'm fine with that but gnome-settings-daemon did a few things that xfce didn't, or something.
06:51:06 <kmc> maybe there is another way to do those things
06:51:21 <kmc> which doesn't involve getting goatfucked by GNOME
06:51:41 <shachaf> But it sounded like so much effort at the time.
06:51:44 <kmc> this is really kind of a worrying state of affairs
06:51:55 <shachaf> Things like "set up multiple keyboard layouts without messing with Xorg.conf".
06:52:05 <kmc> if GNOME is the main UI that's usable by beginners, but is hated and disowned by skilled programmers
06:52:15 <kmc> down that road lies PHP
06:52:56 <kmc> but a fair number of the skilled programmers i know run at least some parts of GNOME
06:53:00 <kmc> so maybe it's not so bad
06:53:24 <shachaf> I'm really at the "don't care" stage.
06:53:36 <shachaf> I don't want too much out of my WM. I mostly use full-screen windows anyway.
06:53:57 <shachaf> But GNOME 3 felt like an early beta or something -- so much was broken and the rest was uncustomizable.
06:55:41 <shachaf> kmc: When are you going to write kmcwm?
06:56:33 <pikhq_> Tech writing, had to write instructions on "any topic"...
06:56:41 <pikhq_> So, I explained the basics of Magic.
06:58:56 <pikhq_> 9 pages for a basic primer on the subject, apparently.
06:59:07 <pikhq_> And by "basic" I mean I even omitted a card type.
07:00:32 <pikhq_> Of course, that's 9 pages with fairly defaulty TeX formatting. Large margins, ToC, whole page taken up by a picture of a card...
07:01:53 <pikhq_> Also, computer modern because I'm lazy and the professor seems to like everything else I've turned in in it. :P
07:02:27 <kmc> LaTeX is a great way to get some unearned credibility
07:02:46 <pikhq_> Greater still when you're actually writing Pandoc. :P
07:02:52 <shachaf> kmc: Is it as good as a clear plastic bider?
07:03:02 <kmc> probably the dirtiest trick I ever pulled was, if I had a long sequence of algebraic manipulations, I would put the dodgiest step across a page break
07:03:05 <itidus20> pikhq_: lol do you think the reader of this document will learn Magic as a result?
07:03:17 <pikhq_> itidus20: Quite plausibly.
07:03:19 <kmc> pikhq_: which input format?
07:03:32 <kmc> yeah, that's nice
07:03:44 <shachaf> kmc: Dodgy as in "unsure about it" or "don't feel like writing it out"?
07:04:02 <pikhq_> It's like writing TeX, but much much easier on me.
07:05:19 <kmc> i liked using markdown for beamer slides
07:05:31 <kmc> but i did run into some limitations (which could have been fixed by writing a pandoc module, probably)
07:05:45 <kmc> also it takes pdflatex a long time to compile 100 slides!
07:05:57 <kmc> if i do another presentation I will seriously consider breaking it up and stitching the resulting pdfs
07:06:03 <shachaf> You should've used that slidy thing!
07:06:06 <kmc> with a makefile
07:06:18 <kmc> shachaf: *shrug* I've had bad experiences with HTML slideshows in the past
07:06:29 <pikhq_> Yeah... I've been running my whole thing through Tup.
07:06:35 <kmc> what's Tup?
07:06:59 <pikhq_> Build automation tool, vaguely like make with better algorithms behind it.
07:07:23 <pikhq_> Probably the nicest feature is its monitor, which can automatically rebuild stuff when the source has changed.
07:07:28 <shachaf> Oh, I thought it was the thing that puts multiple Postscript pages on a single printed page.
07:07:39 <pikhq_> http://gittup.org/tup/\
07:07:43 <pikhq_> http://gittup.org/tup/
07:08:24 <pikhq_> Typically like using it as I dev for fairly quick feedback on things.
07:08:32 <pikhq_> Seeing if something compiles is as easy as :w
07:09:01 <shachaf> I usually do that by hand with inotifywait
07:09:36 <pikhq_> Shame that TeX building is a royal pain to automate with it, though.
07:09:53 <pikhq_> (as TeX spews files all over the place and sometimes needs to run multiple times...)
07:10:04 <kmc> also there's little opportunity for partial recompilation
07:10:09 <kmc> if you have just a flat document
07:10:26 <shachaf> Shame that TeX is what it is.
07:10:40 <pikhq_> So good and so bad all at the same time.
07:11:12 <shachaf> Good enough that no one will ever replace it, or something.
07:11:36 <shachaf> Along one dimension, at least.
07:12:04 <pikhq_> Its output is good enough that it'd be really hard to even come close.
07:12:26 <shachaf> I wonder if it's the most popular Pascal program around these days.
07:12:59 <pikhq_> I know it's the only one on my system.
07:13:54 <kmc> how does tup know which files etc. your compiler read?
07:14:00 <kmc> does it use something like ptrace
07:14:02 <shachaf> pikhq_: Did you know execl("/usr/bin/tex", NULL); // => Segmentation fault
07:14:06 <shachaf> kmc: I think it uses FUSE?
07:14:21 <shachaf> https://github.com/gittup/fuse
07:14:31 <pikhq_> On Linux, it creates a FUSE filesystem in a dot directory, and runs the command there.
07:14:42 <pikhq_> On Windows, it does some hack similar to LD_PRELOAD.
07:15:00 <shachaf> If LD_PRELOAD and/or ptrace is acceptable why can't it do that for both?
07:15:31 <pikhq_> FUSE is quite a bit better than LD_PRELOAD for the purpose. I bet ptrace would work decently, though.
07:15:48 <pikhq_> Though, does ptrace work on OS X?
07:15:50 <kmc> there are various situations where LD_PRELOAD would fail
07:15:55 <kmc> apparently ptrace sucks on OS X
07:16:00 <kmc> but there are other Mach interfaces you can use
07:16:09 <pikhq_> FUSE works on every remaining UNIX, though.
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07:16:23 <shachaf> pikhq_: I guess it's more reasonable in Windows because LD_PRELOAD-hookable functions are the *only* portable way to access the filesystem.
07:16:38 <pikhq_> Oh, sorry, every remaining UNIX *but OpenBSD*.
07:16:45 <kmc> does Solaris have FUSE?
07:16:54 <pikhq_> (come on guys, even Hurd has FUSE!)
07:17:13 <kmc> Hurd *is* FUSE, man
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07:17:17 <shachaf> How about actual Unix®? Does it work on Unix®?
07:17:22 <kmc> i should get Mosh working on Hurd
07:17:29 <pikhq_> Yeah, they implemented FUSE by making a wrapper library.
07:17:33 <kmc> that would be a laff
07:17:51 <kmc> it will be a supported platform for Debian wheezy!
07:17:53 <shachaf> So much time, so little to do!
07:17:59 <pikhq_> shachaf: It doesn't get more actual than the BSDs.
07:18:11 <shachaf> pikhq_: It -- does, doesn't it?
07:18:28 <kmc> does AIX have FUSE?
07:18:40 <pikhq_> No, but can you call that "remaining"?
07:18:49 <kmc> latest stable release October 2011
07:18:52 <kmc> according to Wikipedia
07:18:58 <shachaf> Oh, I thought you meant "remaining after you rule out Linux".
07:19:10 <kmc> latest release of HP-UX was last month!
07:19:23 <pikhq_> I meant "remaining" as in "not dead or effectively so".
07:19:48 <kmc> just because your hippie friends can't afford a real UNIX doesn't mean they're dead
07:20:07 <pikhq_> Strictly speaking, that was 2007.
07:20:17 <pikhq_> HP is just contractually obligated to provide patches until 2013.
07:20:28 <kmc> there was a MINIX release in February
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07:20:42 <pikhq_> Oh, right, MINIX. Yeah, that doesn't have FUSE.
07:20:43 <kmc> so HP-UX will actually go away in 2013?
07:20:54 <kmc> http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2011/xv6.html
07:20:58 <shachaf> AIX will stay around forever.
07:21:24 * kmc hasn't actually read the xv6 source, JOS is more interesting
07:21:25 <pikhq_> Before that, they released in 2003, then 2002, 2001, 2000, 1997, 1996, 1995, 1992, 1991... And so on.
07:21:58 <pikhq_> Yeah, that at least *suggests* HP-UX isn't going to last.
07:22:19 <pikhq_> Oh, and it's for PA-RISC and Itanium machines only.
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07:22:44 <pikhq_> AKA "dead" and "only technically alive", respectively.
07:22:50 <kmc> JOS is pretty neat
07:22:58 <kmc> you implement copy-on-write fork() in userspace!
07:23:03 <kmc> the kernel gives you just enough rope to do so
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07:23:14 <pikhq_> (the last PA-RISC came out in 2005. Some 3 orders of magnitude ago.)
07:23:33 <kmc> in MIT's 6.828 you write portions of an OS named JOS
07:23:43 <kmc> the materials are all online; you should check it out
07:23:57 <shachaf> Ah, a teaching OS sort of thing.
07:24:30 * shachaf should learn more about this topic.
07:24:31 <pikhq_> I can't figure out why AIX is still alive, but then, this is IBM.
07:24:34 <kmc> they call it an "exokernel"
07:24:44 <kmc> it was never clear to me exactly what this means
07:24:58 <pikhq_> They support a 50 year old ISA.
07:25:23 <kmc> they designed that ISA at the outset knowing they would support it for 50 years :D
07:25:55 <pikhq_> ... Oh, wow, I can believe they did.
07:25:57 <olsner> to be fair, they've extended it a lot, and now include support for 3 address sizes
07:25:58 <kmc> it was meant from the beginning to be a kind of virtual thing that would upgrade to newer hardware
07:26:03 <pikhq_> 32-bit addressing in *1964*?!?
07:26:05 <kmc> lol 31 bit architecture
07:26:18 <olsner> pikhq_: it started as 24-bit
07:26:42 <olsner> oh wait, I'm confusing 360 and 370 again
07:26:49 <pikhq_> olsner: I'm discussing the ISA, not early implementations thereof.
07:26:52 <kmc> maybe i am too
07:27:16 <pikhq_> The ISA allowed 32-bit addresses even though the early chips didn't work when you went beyond 2^24.
07:27:49 <kmc> just like x86-64 today
07:28:42 <kmc> shachaf: the primitive IPC message in JOS is a machine int plus optionally a page mapping
07:28:46 <pikhq_> Also, you could operate on 128-bit values.
07:29:17 <pikhq_> (though I think early ones couldn't do arithmetic or anything like that on them)
07:29:35 <kmc> early IBM machines had hardware support for pre-decimal British £sd money
07:30:15 <kmc> in fact there were several different formats for storing same
07:30:20 <kmc> which you could select with a front panel knob
07:30:40 <shachaf> I wish my computer had knobs. :-(
07:32:46 <olsner> fun stuff about z/Architecture is that you have something like 19 address spaces you can switch between and access with special instructions
07:33:30 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/IBM_1401_Control_Panel.jpg
07:33:35 <kmc> "IBM PENCE BSI SHILL"
07:33:42 <olsner> home, primary, secondary, plus 16 "Access Registers"
07:34:00 <pikhq_> 64-bit, 31-bit... Presumably also 24-bit, just in case someone needs to run really weird FORTRAN, and?
07:34:11 <pikhq_> Oh, address spaces, not schemes.
07:34:24 <kmc> shachaf: you can attach some knobs and blinkenlights quite easily
07:34:39 <kmc> i had an analog CPU meter for a while
07:34:48 <shachaf> I never asked for blinkenlichten.
07:35:01 <shachaf> This computer has three pseudo-buttons.
07:35:04 <kmc> this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgZEfExBBiY
07:35:07 <shachaf> One of them sends Super-X.
07:35:29 <shachaf> One of them dims the screen by slightly less than the regular Fn-dim-screen button.
07:35:55 <shachaf> The third one pops up a big ⊘ on the screen.
07:36:29 <olsner> shachaf: sounds incredibly useful
07:36:56 <shachaf> Also I need to get my laundry from Outside.
07:37:19 <kmc> there used to be a Ksplice blog post about how i made it
07:37:27 <kmc> but it's just an arduino and a resistor and a small python script
07:37:49 <kmc> everyone on reddit was like "LAME Y DIDN'T U TAP CPU POWER PINS N00B"
07:37:57 <pikhq_> Doesn't change the awesome.
07:37:59 <kmc> it's an ammeter, you see
07:38:11 <pikhq_> Tap CPU power pins? Eeeek.
07:38:29 <kmc> my laser cutter has a meter on the front panel
07:38:31 <kmc> labeled "Amperemeter"
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07:38:38 <shachaf> Analog is the new digital.
07:38:39 <kmc> in that ugly serif font used for Latin letters in Chinese fonts
07:38:46 <kmc> (the same font is on the rest of the front panel)
07:38:54 <kmc> it doesn't say anywhere what component it's measuring the amperes of
07:39:30 <kmc> also the lid interlock switch doesn't work, I should do something about that
07:39:42 <pikhq_> Ah, ugly-large monospace.
07:40:14 <kmc> shachaf: an awesome suckless CPU meter, done right, that celebrates craftsmanship
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07:42:30 <kmc> shachaf: I think it's cool to have an OS where the lowest level idea of how to send data around involves zero-copy transfers of page mappings
07:42:48 <kmc> there are probably some "real" microkernels that do this too
07:42:58 <pikhq_> Isn't that what L4's known for?
07:43:34 <kmc> yeah i guess so
07:43:39 <shachaf> kmc: I came across a job ad that looked vaguely interesting today, but then I saw that it was for Ksplice.
07:44:05 <kmc> i hear people are still pretty happy there
07:44:08 <kmc> and you could move to boston
07:44:11 <kmc> you could also not move to boston
07:44:50 <shachaf> If it's so great why aren't you there?
07:44:59 <kmc> it's always better on holiday
07:45:04 <kmc> that's why we only work when we need the money
07:45:31 <shachaf> And on holiday we port mosh to GNU/HURD.
07:46:32 <olsner> I wonder how the cost of a 4kB memory copy compares to the overhead involved in mapping a new page
07:47:49 <kmc> on x86 you mostly have to flush the TLB when context switching anyway
07:48:04 <olsner> yeah, so some of that mapping overhead can be made to disappear into things that you have to do "anyway"
07:48:09 <kmc> but it could hurt when the two processes are running simultaneously on different cores
07:48:16 <kmc> then you need to do an IPI to tell the other guy to flush his TLB
07:48:27 <kmc> but you can also do new mappings / increased privileges lazily
07:48:37 <pikhq_> However, 4kiB memory copy also messes with cache. 4kiB is a lot of cache.
07:48:59 <olsner> kmc: at the cost of at least one fault in the future
07:49:01 <kmc> on architectures with tagged TLBs, it might be more painful relatively speaking
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07:49:41 <pikhq_> I mean, my L1 is 512k...
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07:53:48 <olsner> I guess that's what those non-temporal move instructions are for
07:54:27 <kmc> the TLB flush is a constant cost, while memory copy is not
07:54:30 <kmc> so there is probably a break-even point
07:55:14 <shachaf> I wonder whether 4kB is still a reasonable page size these days.
07:55:31 <shachaf> It seems like there are a lot of things that huge pages are reasonable for.
07:55:40 <pikhq_> Hence why Linux now supports them.
07:55:56 <shachaf> And I guess it does the transparent huge pages thing these days.
07:56:09 <pikhq_> Automagic 2MiB pages if you turn it on.
07:57:07 <shachaf> monqy: You should draw a self-portrait of kmc.
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07:58:44 <kmc> PowerPC supports like 1 GB pages, doesn't it?
07:58:54 <olsner> x86 does too, some models anyway
07:59:11 <kmc> PowerPC also has a crazy half-hard-filled "inverted page table" TLB
07:59:13 <shachaf> There was some architecture that supported that, anyway.
07:59:38 * kmc added huge page support to JOS, but only for the kernel direct mapping
07:59:44 <olsner> x86 could do 4TB pages by using a flag in the same manner it does 2MB/1GB pages
08:02:25 <kmc> Linux also has a thing to transparently merge pages with the same content
08:03:06 <olsner> for pages that aren't all-zero too?
08:03:24 <kmc> i think so
08:03:35 <kmc> shachaf: by scanning all of memory periodically
08:03:40 <kmc> i think it's not enabled by default...
08:03:50 <kmc> but can improve memory consumption dramatically on machines hosting a large number of similar VMs
08:06:03 <pikhq_> It's enabled by default *but* only scans pages with the appropriate madvise() set.
08:06:26 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_SamePage_Merging_(KSM) ?
08:06:30 <pikhq_> MADV_MERGEABLE, apparently.
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08:18:07 <shachaf> kmc: Was there a verdict about mosh mouse?
08:18:22 <kmc> we were just talking about that in #mosh
08:18:43 <kmc> the verdict is that it's a mess and i don't want to do it
08:18:44 <kmc> https://github.com/keithw/mosh/issues/101
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08:25:07 <kmc> shachaf: it is... a place to be
08:25:23 <kmc> i should get a mosh project hostname cloak
08:25:28 <kmc> but i failed to discover how to do that
08:25:42 <ais523> kmc: you have to ask the group contact for the projet
08:25:48 <ais523> and be identified on freenode
08:26:27 <kmc> how do i find out who the group contact for a project is
08:26:32 <kmc> it might be me
08:26:34 <kmc> i'm the founder of #mosh
08:27:26 <shachaf> kmc: SOunds like you're in trouble.
08:27:31 <ais523> is there a group contact? the channel would have to be registered with Freenode
08:27:38 <shachaf> That would be like drawing a self-portrait of *yourself*.
08:27:49 <ais523> not just with chanserv, but with the people in charge of running the servers
08:28:35 <shachaf> The Freenode FAQ talks about it, but it seems to be down.
08:28:41 <shachaf> Probably has something to do with the splits.
08:30:04 <shachaf> http://www.google.com/search?strip=1&q=cache:freenode.net/faq.shtml
08:31:23 <kmc> paperwork :/
08:32:24 <shachaf> If you make elliott an op he would take care of the paperwork for you.
08:32:29 <shachaf> He would also go crazy and ban everybody.
08:32:43 <kmc> i think i... won't do that
08:33:32 <shachaf> Actually he probably wouldn't do either of those things.
08:34:11 <shachaf> Do you have to be affiliated with MIT to get a .mit.edu subdomain for your project?
08:35:22 <kmc> i don't know exactly what the rules are
08:35:29 <kmc> affiliation is a slippery thing at MIT
08:35:56 <shachaf> Maybe I should try to get one. I was in an MIT building once.
08:36:06 <shachaf> It's probably good for seeming legitimate.
08:36:48 <kmc> many student groups will let you join without ever having been officially affiliated with MIT
08:36:59 <kmc> they can also sponsor an Athena account for you, whether or not you join their group
08:37:09 <kmc> i don't know if that alone is enough to get domain names
08:39:46 <kmc> and yeah, it is good for seeming legitimate
08:39:58 <kmc> at least one person told us they would have assumed our software is insecure if not for the .mit.edu domain name
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08:56:50 <shachaf> kmc: I guess I would need to move to Boston.
09:15:06 <kmc> to join an MIT club?
09:18:47 <shachaf> They did a SIPB thing here once.
09:19:36 <kmc> oh, really?
09:19:37 <kmc> what was it
09:20:09 <kmc> you could move to Cambridge or Somerville or Brookline instead
09:21:17 <kmc> or other such places
09:22:19 <shachaf> SIPB hackathon at Stripe in Palo Alto.
09:22:40 <kmc> what did they hack on?
09:22:42 <kmc> Debathena? XVM?
09:22:52 <shachaf> I think they just had a bunch of people go there.
09:23:03 <shachaf> I'm not sure that there was an overarching thing.
09:24:02 <kmc> i should join SIPB
09:24:13 <kmc> i'm not sure how much effort this would take
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11:17:54 <itidus20> "Super Mario Bros (along with many other Nintendo games) was proved to be NP-hard by Greg Aloupis, Erik Demaine and Alan Guoyz.[64]" :-D
11:18:10 <itidus20> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1203.1895v1.pdf
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12:51:03 <Ngevd> Did you see my half-esolang?
12:52:48 <Ngevd> User:Taneb/Lowgate and Dilston
12:52:51 <ais523> itidus20: the Pokémon proof is actually incorrect, due to a glitch in Pokémon first generation
12:52:56 <Ngevd> I've posted Lowgate
12:53:01 <Ngevd> Still need to define Dilston
12:53:13 <ais523> there's a chance that the exploding voltorbs will miss altogether; also, the gastly will level up from them
12:53:30 <ais523> and levelling up an l1 gastly takes it to l100, unless it gains a lot of exp all at once
12:53:37 <Ngevd> If the Collatz conjecture is false, at least one of Lowgate and Dilston is Turing-complete
12:54:34 <Ngevd> (Lowgate for infinite trajectories, Dilston for cycles)
12:55:46 <ais523> Ngevd: the mere fact you made that statement makes me optimistic that this esolang won't be the usual rubbish that gets added to the wiki
12:56:52 <Ngevd> Lowgate is a Suffolk derivative, I'm afraid
12:57:03 <Ngevd> And Dilston will probably be a derivative of something else
13:05:49 <ais523> meh, Suffolk is not a boring language to make derivatives of, yet anyway
13:07:42 <ais523> Ngevd: err, Suffolk doesn't depend on infinitely many accessible cells to work
13:07:47 <ais523> in fact, you can access only a finite number
13:08:43 <Ngevd> Here was me being all clever
13:14:05 <Ngevd> Well, it's good it's still in userspace
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13:15:56 <Ngevd> I think this is the second time I've been annoyed at one of my languages being /too/ turing-complete
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13:40:51 <elliott> ais523: I think David.werecat has the "Mark all edits minor by default" option on :P
13:40:51 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
13:41:28 <elliott> 14:41 <lambdabot> Sgeo said 7h 16m 25s ago: I just found out about http://www.zincland.com/7drl/kobold/ from TVTropes. Have you tried it?
13:41:29 <ais523> elliott: go into the database and turn it off
13:41:33 <elliott> Sgeo: kobolds aren't smart & i like them
13:41:45 <ais523> oh, and Smart Kobolds, you should try that, I've been meaning to for quite a while
13:41:58 <elliott> but I don't want to kill kobolds, and kobolds aren't smart!
13:42:05 <ais523> even if Jeff Lait originally created it as a combination of making a point, and trolling
13:43:11 <elliott> yay, MediaWiki 1.19 is out
13:43:43 <ais523> elliott: that better AI does not necessarily make for a better game
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14:31:39 <elliott> @tell Taneb You should make Lowgate true iff Collatz is false, and Dilston true iff Collatz is true.
14:31:57 <elliott> ais523: prepare the fire extinguishers, please
14:32:10 <Ngevd> elliott: I'm right here
14:32:22 <elliott> @tell Ngevd You should make Lowgate true iff Collatz is false, and Dilston true iff Collatz is true.
14:32:30 <lambdabot> elliott said 8s ago: You should make Lowgate true iff Collatz is false, and Dilston true iff Collatz is true.
14:32:35 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
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14:32:49 <elliott> What if you had other messages???
14:33:07 <elliott> "Too bad." -- Ngevd, horrible.
14:33:14 <elliott> Ngevd: I'm going to break the wiki!
14:33:38 <Ngevd> "Yay!" -- Ngevd, still horrible.
14:39:53 <Ngevd> I can't think of any way of making a language that's iff either way
14:40:18 <elliott> Ngevd: Well, you could make it so that the only way to get new storage is to go to the next element in the Collatz sequence.
14:40:25 <elliott> (Where variables are identified by integers.)
14:40:38 <Ngevd> Like the current version of Lowgate
14:40:54 <elliott> That way, if every sequence reaches 1, every program gets a finite amount of memory.
14:40:55 <Ngevd> However, the Collatz conjecture is also false if there is a positive loop other than 1-4-2-1
14:41:13 <elliott> Yes, but a loop also stops you getting infinite memory.
14:41:17 <Ngevd> So, if there's a loop but no infinite ascent, that wouldn't be turing complete
14:41:18 <elliott> Because you'll just loop through the same few variables.
14:41:40 <Ngevd> Hence the two languages
14:50:10 <Ngevd> (I think the response is pung?)
14:50:20 <ais523> I don't care I@m too tired
14:50:43 <elliott> "I don't care I@m too tired" -- ais523, 2012
14:50:58 <ais523> ""I don't care I@m too tired" -- ais523, 2012" — elliott, 2012
14:51:07 <elliott> Damn, I got the em dash treatment.
14:51:11 <Ngevd> ais523, you're something to do with education in Birmingham, right?
14:51:18 <elliott> ais523 *is* education in Birmingham.
14:51:25 <ais523> Ngevd: I spent much of the morning marking exams
14:51:39 <ais523> although I spent the time from around 6am to around 7am reading Usenet and fixing aimake
14:51:46 <elliott> ais523: Anyway, I'm going to make Esolang's MediaWiki sourced from git so that upgrading is less annoying.
14:51:49 <Ngevd> ais523, can you reccomend Birmingham University?
14:51:57 <elliott> ais523: Should I use the WMF branches or the MediaWiki tags?
14:52:39 <ais523> Ngevd: for what? it depends on what subject you're doing
14:52:49 <Ngevd> Maths, most likely
14:52:51 <ais523> I like the atmosphere here, at least
14:53:00 <elliott> Ngevd: You're not doing gymnastics and dog theory???
14:53:08 <Ngevd> elliott, don't have the GCSEs.
14:53:10 <ais523> if you're coming here next year, you should do maths and CS so I can teach you :)
14:53:33 <Ngevd> As in, September 2013?
14:54:03 <ais523> oh, hmm, it'd probably have to be september 2012 unless they decide that they have to hire me for another year in an emergency
14:54:36 <ais523> their problem is that the budget is too small to hire new staff or even retain existing staff, also that they don't really have enough teaching staff
14:55:00 <Ngevd> Well, tell me how things go
14:55:10 <ais523> they're putting me in charge of the first year Java course next year (rather than just teaching it without being in charge) because they can't find anyone else with the knowledge to do the job
14:55:24 <ais523> and I pointed out that it'd only last for one more year before my contract expires
14:55:50 <ais523> also that they're not paying much more than minimum wage
14:57:00 <ais523> however, the person who was doing it before they kept on for a year, maybe two years, after their PhD because he'd become so essential to the running of the department
14:57:08 <elliott> good thing you're WOLFRAM RICH*
14:57:13 <ais523> and I think he only left because Aston University poached him by offering more money
14:57:14 <elliott> *not rich, by analogy with "Wolfram science", etc.
14:57:33 <ais523> elliott: meh, it paid for three years of my education and living costs, that's a reasonably significant amount
14:59:06 <elliott> wait, ais523 didn't answer my question :'(
15:03:35 <Ngevd> ais523, how desperate is Birmingham University for students?
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15:04:15 <ais523> Ngevd: depends on the subject
15:04:29 <ais523> they have ridiculously large numbers of students in some departments, like electronics
15:04:46 <ais523> and have to bribe them for others, like engineering
15:05:07 <elliott> Ngevd: Go wherever Phantom_Hoover's going and become the ultimate brickbraining team.
15:05:39 <Ngevd> I don't like there maths syllabus
15:05:39 <ais523> for CS, I think they get enough applications that they can afford to be selective
15:05:42 <elliott> No, I think Cambridge rejected him.
15:06:01 <elliott> It's some place in the middle of nowhere in Scotland.
15:06:24 <Ngevd> If he got into a Scottish universities, I can pretend to be Dutch to get university for free
15:07:48 <Ngevd> But yes, I'm beginning to think of universities
15:08:13 <Ngevd> And I've just accidentally opened Rome Total War, brb
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15:08:27 <elliott> ais523: 15:52 <elliott> ais523: Should I use the WMF branches or the MediaWiki tags?
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15:09:24 <ais523> elliott: oh, I actually don't know
15:09:52 <ais523> Ngevd: scottish universities have a bunch of advantages over english universities (well, the main one is to do with cost)
15:10:12 <Ngevd> Time TO CLAIM TO BE DUTCH
15:10:17 <elliott> I guess the WMF branches will be more up-to-date and the like, but they might be a bit less stable. (Even if they are used on Wikipedia, the WMF employs a bunch of sysadmins to fix it when it breaks.)
15:10:26 <elliott> And I'd have to update less with the release tags.
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15:25:28 <coppro> ais523: how much is university typically in the UK?
15:25:44 <ais523> coppro: I don't know, because it was massively increased recently (as in, since I went there)
15:25:56 <coppro> how much was it when you went
15:26:09 <Ngevd> (maximum, not including living costs)
15:26:23 <ais523> coppro: £1150, but I got a £1000 discount the first year, and £500 subsequent years, for good academic performance
15:26:29 <ais523> again, this doesn't include living costs
15:26:31 <Ngevd> Cheaper than US, I believe
15:26:46 <ais523> coppro: although you get a low-interest loan for the full amount and don't have to pay it back until you start earning money
15:26:59 <ais523> so it basically ends up equivalent to a percentage tax that stops being charged eventually
15:27:01 <coppro> yeah, it's the same here
15:27:26 <ais523> if the government had flavoured it as that, they'd probably get a lot less flak for it; it pretty much single-handedly sank the Liberal Democrat party
15:27:28 <elliott> "University costs in X are better than the US" is a tautology for all X =/= US.
15:27:51 <coppro> Domestic tuition here is cheaper, than that, but international tuition is more.
15:28:00 <elliott> ais523: I think what sank the lib dems is doing that *because they said they wouldn't*.
15:28:44 <ais523> elliott: the ridiculous thing is that what the lib dems were actually proposing was strictly worse for the students
15:28:47 <elliott> (I don't think that's the only reason the Lib Dems are fucked, though.)
15:28:51 <ais523> just none of them paid attention
15:29:22 <elliott> ais523: It still isn't very good for trust if you explicitly do something you campaigned on the premise of not doing, though.
15:29:41 <elliott> *promise (although premise works too)
15:29:48 <ais523> basically, what I'm saying is that the government pulled a stupid move in not using the conservative proposal with the lib dem flavour
15:29:57 <ais523> which would have kept pretty much everyone happy
15:30:07 <coppro> it's about £12500/yr for an international student at my school
15:30:10 <ais523> apart from the people who want tuition fees to be abolished altogether
15:30:23 <elliott> At least the Conservatives are getting a terrible reputation as well as the Lib Dems.
15:31:22 <elliott> I guess next time we'll elect the BNP or something on account of nobody liking the big three any more.
15:32:04 <elliott> coppro: They're indistinguishable from all the other parties.
15:32:05 <ais523> elliott: you realise that there's a Green MP atm, right?
15:32:17 <ais523> a sign that people are taking fourth options seriously
15:32:19 <elliott> ais523: OK, coalition of the Greens and NBP.
15:32:26 <elliott> ais523: The Best Government Ever(TM).
15:32:31 <ais523> they'd never go into coalition with each other
15:32:37 <Ngevd> elliott, needs more George Galloway
15:32:45 <coppro> ais523: oh, I didn't realize you guys got a green mp too
15:32:56 <ais523> coppro: we never do, except this time we did
15:33:11 <elliott> A Green-BNP coalition might work out, on account of the government wouldn't be able to do a single thing.
15:33:15 <ais523> she picked her seat very carefully, it was a case of picking the seat they thought they were most likely to win and then focusing a load of campaign effort on it
15:33:32 <ais523> meh, we should have a pirate party/ninja party coalition
15:33:39 <Ngevd> Ninja party is a thing?
15:33:55 <Ngevd> Let's make it a thing?
15:34:06 <ais523> Ngevd: what would its policies even be?
15:34:19 <coppro> she picked her riding well
15:34:24 <elliott> anti-talk like a pirate day
15:34:42 <ais523> elliott: I don't think they'd be defined by being the exact opposite of the pirate party
15:34:48 <ais523> I think it'd be a parallel with different goals
15:34:58 <Ngevd> Promoting language education?
15:35:01 <ais523> i.e. apathetic about copyright and pirate speech, but very motivated about a couple of other issues
15:35:08 <elliott> ais523: In the same way that ninjas are analogous to pirates with different goals?
15:35:21 <elliott> It's more like they have the same goal but very different methods.
15:35:25 <elliott> The goal is killing people, or something.
15:35:49 <ais523> so ninjas should also be in favour of copyright reform, but instead of stealing it, would rather just massacre people who tried to enforce it?
15:36:00 <elliott> (Stealing copyright reform?)
15:36:18 <ais523> elliott: /illegally downloading/ copyright reform
15:36:22 <ais523> get your terminology right…
15:36:28 <elliott> You're the one who said stealing!
15:36:39 <coppro> the problem with a ninja government is that they'd never be able to prove that the commons got quorum
15:36:50 <elliott> You wouldn't download copyright reform...
15:37:02 <elliott> Wait, it's actually *steal.
15:37:05 <elliott> My mind mentally fixed the advert.
15:37:10 <elliott> As opposed to physically fixing it.
15:38:06 <Ngevd> it is TIME to WALK my DOG
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15:38:28 <elliott> I always new Ngevd was a walking dog.
15:40:51 <coppro> elliott: that's copyright violation for the rights in the fixation of a performance
15:41:23 <coppro> ais523: you don't have a PhD, right?
15:41:34 <ais523> coppro: I'm currently obtaining one
15:41:57 <elliott> ais523: Once you get a Ph.D., you should sign your emails "ais, 523 Ph.D.".
15:43:04 <elliott> Does that mean you're an AI?
15:43:52 <coppro> ais523: you're researching programming languages, right?
15:44:15 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9243475/lists-c-homework/9247613#9247613 what a comment section
15:44:20 <ais523> coppro: I'm researching compiling high-level languages to hardware, which involves inventing new ones
15:44:24 <elliott> coppro: he's doing hardware programming language stuff
15:44:41 <ais523> because there were no modern variants of algol specialised for hardware, oddly enough
15:45:08 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> coppro: I'm researching compiling high-level languages to hardware, which involves inventing new ones <ais523> because there were no modern variants of algol specialised for hardware, oddly enough
15:45:18 <HackEgo> 852) <ais523> coppro: I'm researching compiling high-level languages to hardware, which involves inventing new ones <ais523> because there were no modern variants of algol specialised for hardware, oddly enough
15:45:36 <ais523> elliott: I can't expand the 128 more comments link without turning on JS
15:45:45 <ais523> but the last comment above the fold is hilarious enough by itself
15:46:02 <ais523> I can think of a few ways it could go from there; which did it actually do?
15:46:21 <elliott> eznme proceeded to spoon-feed beginnernato for a hundred comments
15:46:32 <coppro> that question is totally from a UW student
15:46:44 <coppro> that code is /definitely/ from our second CS course
15:46:50 <ais523> elliott: legitimate info or trolling?
15:46:54 * elliott upvotes the last comment above the fold
15:47:03 <elliott> ais523: legitimate (albeit academically dishonest on beginnernato's part, naturally)
15:47:14 <ais523> indeed, I just ment on eznme's part
15:47:31 <elliott> (and probably not too ethical on eznme's part by consequence)
15:47:31 <ais523> also, how does an answer get 128 comments and exactly 1 vote?
15:47:39 <elliott> ais523: because only two people are participating in it
15:47:45 <elliott> they're using it as a chatroom
15:47:47 <ais523> meh, eznme may well turn out to be the prof who set the problem
15:48:00 <elliott> despite the warning that will have appeared for about 120 of them
15:48:16 <elliott> (it says, roughly, "don't use comments for extended discussion, if you click this link we'll turn it into a Stack Overflow chatroom for you")
15:50:22 <coppro> eznme was definitely not the prof
15:51:30 <coppro> the prof almost certainly would not have given away the answers
15:51:40 <coppro> at least not so quickly
15:52:17 <ais523> coppro: there's several tales of profs giving away the answer immediately so that they could catch plagiarism red-handed if it was actually used unchanged
15:52:24 <ais523> although more commonly for essay-writing than in CS
15:54:44 <coppro> I appear to have gained several thousand reputation since last time I was visiting stackoverflow O_o
15:55:10 <elliott> you have an answer with 396 votes
15:56:06 <coppro> I'm nearly a moderator due largely to that question
15:56:18 <elliott> "moderator" generally refers to the elected moderators
15:56:23 <elliott> the 10k moderator tools are... not as impressive
15:56:49 <elliott> you mostly just get to see flags and to second or disagree with them (not act on them), and things like recently closed questions
15:56:58 <elliott> coppro: I think if I edited that post, it'd become community wiki and you'd stop getting any rep on it
15:57:06 <elliott> <bold>so tempting</bold> why can't this client do bold
15:57:40 <ais523> elliott: do you lose rep if a post you got rep for becomes community wiki?
15:57:49 <elliott> coppro: oh no, you asked one of those terrible "What's your favourite X feature?" questions :(
15:57:55 <elliott> ais523: no, you just stop getting any more rep
15:59:01 * ais523 checks how http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/05/01/2146232/android-ported-to-c is getting on
15:59:19 <ais523> and yes, it's missing the #
15:59:23 <elliott> ais523: the flamewars slashdotted slashdot
15:59:32 <elliott> hey, remember when everybody's servers sucked and slashdotting was a thing???
15:59:54 <ais523> I was only around for the tail end of it, though
16:00:01 <ais523> reddit still manages to slashdot sites now and again, though
16:00:01 <elliott> I bet nethack4.org could be slashdotted.
16:00:19 <elliott> ais523: that's more because people don't know how to configure WordPress than reddit sending tons of traffic
16:00:23 <ais523> the patch-tag page on AceHack /was/ slashdotted
16:00:48 <elliott> what, as a standalone post?
16:00:52 <elliott> or as part of a post about NetHack variants?
16:00:52 <ais523> with a bunch of other variants
16:00:54 <elliott> the latter seems more believable
16:01:05 <coppro> elliott: if you edit it, it doesn't become community wiki unless you choose to make it so
16:01:15 <elliott> coppro: no, if it gets edited by 5 other people it becomes CW
16:01:29 <elliott> (but you can flag it to be put back by a moderator, if other people have only made minor edits)
16:02:02 <elliott> (elected moderator again, not 10k)
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16:03:16 <elliott> elliott@solidity:/srv/esolangs.org/www/mediawiki-new/extensions$ for ext in AbuseFilter AntiSpoof CheckUser ConfirmEdit Nuke ParserFunctions Renameuser Vector WikiEditor; do sudo git clone https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/p/mediawiki/extensions/$ext.git; done
16:03:45 <coppro> what is nuke? ban a user and rollback all their edits?
16:04:14 <elliott> mass deletes pages created by a certain user
16:04:22 <elliott> I think it was designed for Wikipedia vandals and Esolang really has no use for it
16:04:27 <elliott> but I can't not enable such a destructive extension
16:05:43 <elliott> does git track permissions?
16:05:49 <elliott> oh, it tracks at least +x, I guess
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16:22:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I have an offer, although it's not really a pleasant one.
16:22:18 <elliott> Offer: "Go die in a fire, you Scottish asswipe."
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16:23:26 <elliott> Hey shachaf, I'm reading a poor blog post about Haskell!
16:28:38 <Phantom_Hoover> So for some reason I'm downloading TortoiseSVN, except they've rigged the download page not to display if you're using an adblocker.
16:29:21 <elliott> "Windows" — Phantom_Hoover
16:29:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, it just plain doesn't display.
16:30:27 <elliott> It's obviously trivial to find the downloads.
16:30:31 <elliott> But why would you want TortoiseSVN?
16:30:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Some idiot mod authors decided to make theirs available through SVN.
16:31:04 <elliott> ...how is that idiotic? And since when does that mean you need to use TortoiseSVN?
16:31:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm literally following the instructions on their website.
16:31:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Also c'mon, mods are not exactly aimed at a demographic who can use SVN.
16:31:59 <elliott> pikhq: Ping? coppro: Ping? Deewiant: Ping? Does anyone know git? :p
16:32:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, you're doing well to show you're well inside the technically-incompetent demographic you're talking about.
16:33:02 <Phantom_Hoover> ...why, because I follow instructions rather than critiquing every step?
16:34:03 <elliott> Because you follow instructions telling you how to check something out from SVN using a Windows GUI, rather than just checking it out using SVN itself, and then treat being unable to obtain the GUI tool as a roadblock?
16:35:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Because I took the path of least resistance rather than spending five minutes finding out how to use SVN on Windows?
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16:40:49 <Phantom_Hoover> FYI, the Subversion site itself links to 3 GUIs, a 32-bit build on SourceForge and a broken page.
16:41:31 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're going to call me an idiot at least do it properly.
16:42:32 <elliott> It's almost as if the vast majority of Windows applications are 32-bit :P
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16:44:32 <coppro> what do you want to do?
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16:44:47 <elliott> coppro: if I change the ownership/permissions of a directory tracked by git, will it notice?
16:44:52 <elliott> i.e. does it track that stuff?
16:44:56 <elliott> I think it tracks at least +x
16:45:54 <elliott> good, I'm not changing +x :)
16:46:16 <fizzie> "the files all have mode 644 or 755: git actually only pays attention to the executable bit". -- them manual.
16:47:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Problem 2: about all I know of svn is that you use svn clone to download, and the Windows build apparently doesn't install an svn command.
16:47:19 * elliott wonders if git checkout-index does submodules.
16:47:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe you *would* be better off with TortoiseSVN.
16:47:40 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: "svn checkout", there is no "svn clone".
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16:50:06 <elliott> fizzie: How would you create a copy of a git repository including submodules without the .git?
16:50:46 * elliott is trying to make Esolang's MediaWiki installation + extensions sourced from the git repos (and maintain LocalSettings.php in it too), but each extension is in a separate git repository, so...
16:50:51 <Gregor> Surely git archive can do it?
16:51:09 <elliott> (And MediaWiki's upgrade method means that I can't just reasonably maintain it in-place.)
16:51:17 <elliott> Gregor: Does that do submodules?
16:51:23 <elliott> submodules are kinda... second-class.
16:51:24 <Gregor> I don't know, but I would assume so.
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16:51:41 <Gregor> More to the point, it's worth a try.
16:51:51 <elliott> Trying things is more difficult than asking people.
16:52:01 <Gregor> Well, then let me answer you this way:
16:52:10 <Gregor> git is fucking terrible, I don't know what it does because I hate it.
16:53:40 <fizzie> All I know about submodules is that I think they're kinda iffy.
16:54:01 <elliott> fizzie: I don't really like them. But I can't think of a better way to maintain the extension directories.
16:55:34 <fizzie> But if all you need is in the working copy, maybe you could just rsync (or some other git-unaware tool) with suitable ignore rules for everything ".gitty".
16:56:11 <elliott> fizzie: That would work, but is disgusting. :(
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16:56:45 <elliott> fizzie: "GIT_WORK_TREE=/blah git checkout" might work. Except that doesn't do submodules either, does it...
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16:58:01 <fizzie> Apparently there are quite a few "git-archive-all" style scripts that do submodules too floating around the tubes. They all suck, of course. (I'm assuming that last part.)
17:01:07 <zzo38> In Dungeons&Dragons game, I saw a gnome riding on a donkey; I was hiding in the tree. And ask him, who is he? And stay hidden so that they cannot find us. But then the wizard said he knows him his name is Git and he exited from the hiding and then I did too soon afterward
17:01:13 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: "svn checkout", there is no "svn clone".
17:01:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah I basically don't know anything about RCSes other than that there are like a billion of them and they all make downloading things that bit more complicated.
17:03:11 <zzo38> And I have read that the git version system was named after its inventor even though that wasn't his name
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17:03:53 <Gregor> Torvalds is just a git, that's all.
17:04:12 -!- Deewiant has joined.
17:04:35 <elliott> Gregor: You realise that's literally the origin of the name, right?
17:07:44 <Gregor> I'm unsurprised, but was unaware.
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17:10:14 <elliott> God, MediaWiki's file layout is incredibly annoying.
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17:10:33 <elliott> I really want to make Rasmus fucking Lerdorf hurt for making people put code in the same directory as data.
17:11:03 <elliott> (s/data/mutable data/ to appease the Lispers.)
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17:14:15 <elliott> OK, I'll just do the terrible thing.
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17:24:18 <elliott> Hmm, this is super annoying.
17:24:28 <elliott> I... guess I could do fizzie's rsync thing.
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17:31:20 <elliott> Actually, I couldn't quite do fizzie's rsync thing.
17:31:53 <elliott> Oh, I could just forget about the .git thing and do
17:32:17 <elliott> git clone --recursive blah mediawiki-new && cd mediawiki-new && cp -a ../mediawiki/{the,stuff} . && sudo -u www-data php maintanence/update.php
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18:30:01 <elliott> Gregor: You should totally upgrade MediaWiki for me.
18:32:11 <elliott> Gregor: That sounds like "yes" to me!
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18:40:22 <nortti> Have you heard about the freedom of speech ranking? Finland, Norway and Sweden are on the first place, USA is on place 22 along with Estonia, Brittain is on the place 31 and on place 179 is North Korea
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18:43:45 <Ngevd> I would respond, but I'd likely be arrestede
18:44:31 <nortti> Ngevd: where do you live
18:45:23 <Ngevd> I'm one of the two Hexhamites
18:47:07 <nortti> I have found out that freenode only wants SASL certificate from users of the IPS I use
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18:58:31 <nortti_> Because webchat likes to throw me out at random I will be stalking the logs and commenting if I feels like it. When I really quit I will put qdb.us url as my quit message
18:59:21 <nortti_> other quits just mean that it will take longer for me to answer
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19:04:50 <elliott> rip monqy "died doing what he loved best: identifying things"
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19:10:01 <monqy> scrole of immolation
19:10:27 <monqy> if i wanted to survive i would have read fog and blinked
19:10:32 <monqy> "who cares about that"
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19:15:18 <Ngevd> elliott, tomorrow is DWARF FORTRESS DAY
19:15:18 <nortti_> "Step one: Shave his bullet-deflecting mustache."
19:17:51 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: STUFF).
19:18:46 <nortti_> "I'm an atheist for the next half hour, piss off."
19:21:33 -!- elliott has left.
19:21:44 <nortti_> "The members of The Southern Brotherhood were planning to assassinate Tsar Alexander I when he would be attending military manouevres in Ukraine in 1826. But, in November 1825, the Tsar suddenly died, [thus shitting all over the Brotherhood's plans to kill him]".
19:24:20 <olsner> lolwtf, the page loads, displays, then redirects to a blank page
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19:30:47 <elliott> Oh boy, this MW situation is more of a pain than I thought.
19:31:07 <elliott> The .gitignore specifically ignores stuff in the extensions directory, and LocalSettings.php.
19:31:13 <elliott> Can you git add things that are .gitignored?
19:31:22 <elliott> Does that stop git commit -a from committing them?
19:32:59 <elliott> Okay, answer to the first question is yes.
19:33:01 <elliott> Maybe I should just try the second one.
19:33:37 <elliott> OK, I guess I'll just do that then.
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19:40:33 <elliott> "ok, you do that then" -- olsner, 2012
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19:41:12 -!- Gregor has set topic: #esoteric: Surprisingly often, covered in tree sap | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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19:43:29 <elliott> Gregor: More like "I volunteer to upgrade Esolang's MediaWiki installation", am I right?
19:44:11 <elliott> "git pull" isn't atomic, right?
19:44:14 <elliott> Err, "git merge" I should say.
19:44:24 <nortti> http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2012/05/02/is-your-teen-browsing-the-pr0n/
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19:45:28 <monqy> First off, let’s look at the title: how do you know if your teenage kids are browsing teh pornz? Well, there are easy steps to find out:
19:45:31 <monqy> Step the first: they are. Period. Full stop. End of list.
19:45:31 <monqy> great article nortti
19:47:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Loving how this article completely denies the existence of asexuals.
19:47:49 <elliott> taneb looks at porn for research purposes only
19:48:08 <elliott> monqy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_Other_Than_English
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19:48:50 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lote,_Norway
19:49:00 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lote_Raikabula
19:49:08 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lote_tree
19:50:46 <elliott> Does anyone know how I could get "ssh solidity sudo cat /srv/esolangs.org/www/mediawiki/LocalSettings.php >Localsettings.php" to run without sudo complaining that there's no tty present?
19:50:52 <elliott> Oh, right, ssh doesn't supply a tty if you give it a command.
19:50:57 <elliott> That's annoying. I wonder if there's some way to override that.
19:54:06 <elliott> monqy: wow if you think that article's bad take a look at the one it's responding to
19:54:11 <elliott> Do They Browse the Web with the Door Closed?
19:54:15 <elliott> Have they Rearranged their Room so the Monitor Faces Away from the Door?
19:54:18 <elliott> Do They Get Nervous and Uncomfortable When You Use Their Computer?
19:54:21 <elliott> Is Your Browser History Periodically Erased?
19:54:35 <monqy> i didn't even bother looking
19:54:41 <monqy> i saw the thing i pasted and then just closed it
19:54:46 <monqy> "enough article for me, monqy"
19:57:53 <elliott> I wish I was called me, monq.
19:57:54 <elliott> I wish I was called me, monqy.
19:58:16 <monqy> it's a good name to have
19:58:17 <elliott> monqy: Is your LOS square in real life, too?
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20:02:51 <nortti_> in finnish alas=down ylös=up
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20:05:35 <monqy> apparently "oops" in croatian means "lol"
20:05:40 <monqy> thanks google translate
20:05:48 <shachaf> I heard you were reading "a poor blog post about haskell"
20:05:53 -!- Deewiant has joined.
20:06:07 <monqy> today I may or may not draw a self portrait of myself
20:06:42 <elliott> im envisioning the future breakdown of monqy after he is inundated with self portrait requests
20:06:50 <shachaf> monqy: Do you think you could write an autobiography of me sometime?
20:07:14 <monqy> autobiographies are a lot of work!
20:07:23 <elliott> are you writing autobiographies too
20:08:18 <shachaf> "PLEASE SEND YOUR POSTAL MAILING ADDRESS SO THAT I MAY SEND A REPLY FROM PROF. DONALD KNUTH TO YOUR EMAIL TO HIM."
20:08:33 <shachaf> My email had a POSTAL MAILING ADDRESS.
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20:11:14 <elliott> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User_talk:Jennefervoc6006
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20:11:26 <shachaf> monqy: Are you going to draw a self-potrrait of kmc?
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20:16:35 <elliott> monqy: anyway i was referring to the foreground part not the kitten yes
20:16:38 <elliott> it still looks familiar to me!!!
20:20:10 <shachaf> Is this a self-portrait that I missed?
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20:24:56 <shachaf> Oh! I want a self-portrait of zzo38, too.
20:25:28 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, I won't give you one; so you have to do it yourself
20:25:44 <shachaf> zzo38: monqy's been drawing self-portraits.
20:25:51 <shachaf> zzo38: He drew great ones of me and elliott.
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20:30:47 <elliott> monqy: you shouldn't draw any more self-portraits of anyone else its
20:40:47 <elliott> Writing objects: 15% (50458/324608), 12.24 MiB | 46 KiB/s
20:42:18 <olsner> haha, cloning from darcs.haskell.org?
20:43:26 <lambdabot> Local time for olsner is Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970
20:43:34 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Thu May 3 13:43:34 2012
20:52:32 <elliott> Writing objects: 40% (131637/324608), 42.63 MiB | 45 KiB/s
20:52:40 <elliott> zzzzZZZZzzzzZZzZZZZZZZzzzzzz
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20:58:43 <elliott> monqy: travel won't use staircases you haven't gone up??
21:00:24 <Phantom_Hoover> so youtube on linux no longer lets me skip around in videos
21:01:23 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = f a
21:05:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is "cleanup" really a word?
21:05:33 <elliott> Like, without a - or a space.
21:06:20 <elliott> But it's in all the dictionaries and everything.
21:06:20 <olsner> when cleaning up you do a cleanup
21:06:32 <elliott> And I keep wanting to change it.
21:06:36 <elliott> But I only have 3 minutes to change it.
21:18:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:32:58 <elliott> And the main page's style is broken.
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21:42:05 <elliott> Screenshots would be nice if they really aren't messed up for you.
21:42:21 <elliott> It's broken in both Safari and Firefox for me.
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21:49:03 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#MediaWiki_1.19_upgrade_and_DNS_change
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21:50:20 <elliott> Sgeo: So does it actually look fine for you?
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22:28:33 <elliott> font size 1.6, line height 1.2, margin bottom .1
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22:33:09 <elliott> monqy: did you make a self-self-portrait
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22:38:19 <elliott> In Haskell, what does map mean or do? Just wondering, I know it's a very general question and there's probably a lot of things that it does but like generally what is it used for?
22:38:56 <shachaf> elliott: "map" is the secret ingredient that makes Google Maps so good.
22:38:57 <pikhq> Curse whoever you're quoting!
22:39:21 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Thu May 3 15:39:20 2012
22:39:26 <elliott> monqy: your sleep schedule "not gr8"
22:39:53 <shachaf> busy dreamging up my self portraite?????
22:39:56 <elliott> monqy: it's ok mine is worse
22:40:41 <shachaf> elliott: Does that mean your self-portrait will be "even better"?
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22:42:36 <zzo38> Did you make a self-self-self-self-portrait?
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22:44:30 <elliott> the pressure is two (its rising)
22:46:24 <elliott> monqy: i upgraded mediawiki while you were asleep
22:48:48 <zzo38> I once made up a program which implements a grid-based puzzle game engine where you can specify the rules, where each rule consists of: a direction flag, a symmetry flag, an optional input counter, an optional output counter, the initial state, the final state, the game end flag, the input pattern, and the output pattern.
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22:51:42 <kmc> shachaf: if Google Maps used Haskell then they would know the name of the city where I live
22:52:02 <zzo38> Each pattern is 3x3, and can specify the color, character, both, or neither. In addition, the color and/or character can be "mark". There are seven colors, and the characters are the 1 to 254 of the CP437 set.
22:52:15 <zzo38> Sokoban can be defined using this system using three rules.
22:55:09 <zzo38> What long description should I wrote for "prelude-generalize" package?
22:55:49 <elliott> zzo38: write the letter "a" twenty-seven times and then put "b"
22:55:54 <elliott> you can add a "c" if you feel it necessary
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22:57:09 <elliott> i would be very sceptical about any "d". ask yourself whether you truly need that "d"
22:58:42 <zzo38> elliott: Why? But, OK.
22:58:52 <zzo38> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaab
22:58:58 <zzo38> Or did you mean by hand?
22:59:14 <elliott> I meant for your long description. Twenty-eight letters is pretty long.
22:59:16 <elliott> But you can do it by hand too!
22:59:44 <zzo38> O, that's what you mean. But that isn't a very good description.
23:00:00 <elliott> Well, you can't have everything.
23:00:02 <zzo38> Lumpio-: I think CP437 is IBM codepage
23:00:45 <kmc> zzo38++ for CP437
23:00:47 <kmc> best codepage ever
23:01:00 <Lumpio-> The term "codepage" itself just sounds overly Microsoftey to me.
23:01:24 <kmc> i mean "ugh legacy encodings" but it's old
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23:04:07 <elliott> monqy: have you ever found an octopus???
23:04:37 -!- Deewiant has joined.
23:05:33 <elliott> monqy: one problem: i don't believe aquariums are real?
23:06:11 <shachaf> monqy: can i comission a self portrait of kmc please
23:06:17 <shachaf> it's like a mission but with the arrows reversed
23:07:15 <elliott> haha this guy just totally fucked up
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23:11:59 <coppro> elliott: are you watching crawl?
23:12:23 <elliott> xgamer on CDO, i just picked at random because i saw they were on zot
23:14:55 <monqy> unless this guy messes up really badly i'm guessing he'll win
23:15:07 <elliott> monqy: before he zerked a dragon and then
23:15:17 <elliott> immediately another dragon and another thing came into view
23:15:27 <elliott> and as soon as he got to them the zerk ran out
23:15:37 <monqy> why isn't the curse toe tormenting
23:15:45 <kmc> oh, no i don't live in glasgow
23:15:56 <kmc> glasgow has the third oldest subway system in the world
23:15:59 <elliott> berserker players remind me of me
23:16:08 <shachaf> kmc: Who has the second oldest and the first oldest?
23:16:16 <elliott> stalked by a bat and a rat on zot:2
23:16:22 <shachaf> I guess "oldest" is redundant in those sentences.
23:16:22 <kmc> budapest and london respectively
23:16:27 <monqy> oh no where is he going
23:16:38 <elliott> he's done with this dungeon
23:16:56 <kmc> in new york they spent like 20 years saying "dude we need rapid transit" without building any
23:17:14 <kmc> during this time many companies were born and died and many legislators were bribed
23:17:20 <monqy> managing his stache, i see
23:18:14 <kmc> the first rapid transit in New York opened 5 years after the first bit of the London Underground
23:18:24 <kmc> but it was an elevated railway, and that's all they built for some time
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23:19:32 <kmc> http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beach/
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23:20:51 <elliott> monqy: does he remember about the orb
23:21:07 <monqy> too much stache fun
23:21:17 <elliott> monqy: more like the orb of WHAT!!!
23:21:51 <monqy> it's just too deep deep down
23:21:58 <kmc> the first subway part of the today New York City Subway opened in 1904
23:23:14 <elliott> monqy: how is this guy not bored yet
23:24:35 <elliott> HOLY GOD YOUR INVENTORY IS FINE
23:24:46 <elliott> accidentally forgot the capslock
23:25:09 <kmc> but the railroad tunnel from Grand Central at 42nd St to 96th St opened in 1875
23:25:37 <kmc> which today carries commuter trains, but at the time was arguably rapid transit, and had some underground stops
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23:26:37 <elliott> monqy: he hasn't dropped his potion of slowing
23:27:12 <kmc> and there was a railroad tunnel in Brooklyn by 1844
23:27:16 <kmc> but Brooklyn wasn't part of New York yet!
23:27:19 <kmc> AND NOW YOU KNOW
23:27:19 <monqy> explore_delay and travel_delay should default to -1
23:28:00 <kmc> elliott: if you like the Beech Pneumatic logo you may also enjoy this picture: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Harvey_Cable_Car.jpg
23:28:24 <elliott> thank you, kmc, your extensive transport knowledge continues to entertain
23:28:42 <elliott> 00:28 <Henzell> death cob[1/5]: You may have already fielded a guess, but it's insane hostile food. It might be corny, but if you put an ear to the ground deep down in Crawl's maize, you may find that you are being stalked; being buttered up for the kill, smooth as silk.
23:28:52 <monqy> why is he clearing zot aaagh
23:29:04 <elliott> you could use your hi ability
23:29:15 <kmc> new york had better transit in 1930 than today :/
23:29:20 <elliott> "hi" is monqy for "stop that"
23:29:44 <monqy> he mapped zot4, maybe he'll dive it
23:30:10 <monqy> he's not keymashing that bone dragon fast enough
23:30:15 <monqy> (written before bone dragon deaded)
23:30:42 <elliott> wow i hope i play less in a less silly manner than this by the time i reach zot
23:31:21 <elliott> you won 17 times without reaching zot?
23:31:27 <elliott> did you use scrolls of acquirement to get the orb?
23:31:34 <monqy> no i hope you play in a less silly manner by the time you reach zot
23:31:36 <elliott> "i'm gonna go for miscellaneous" "j - the Orb of Zot" "yessssss"
23:31:49 <elliott> monqy: i prefer my version?
23:32:07 <monqy> it's a good version
23:32:20 <zzo38> Have you used METAFONT for designing any logos or typefaces?
23:33:17 <elliott> monqy: why are there death cobs
23:34:35 <elliott> monqy: i didn't ask you!!!
23:34:43 <monqy> eat in front of the yellow drac yes
23:35:16 <elliott> monqy: you know when you crave something SO BAD and you just gotta eat even if you're dying
23:35:35 <monqy> he's not quite dying yet
23:35:51 <elliott> monqy: you're always dying when fighting
23:36:15 <elliott> monqy: oh yeah is it true that travel won't use upstairs you haven't used
23:36:22 <elliott> i guess it makes sense but
23:36:28 <elliott> going up every upstairs will be so boring
23:36:36 <elliott> oh i think he might start dying soon
23:37:08 <monqy> before i put all my buttons on one button i "stair dipped"
23:38:05 <monqy> when you see an unused staircase you go down it then back up
23:38:51 <elliott> monqy: that's so ugh though :(
23:38:58 <elliott> go up upstairs when i found them instead but
23:39:24 <monqy> he's not dying quite yet
23:39:55 <elliott> dying is one of but many ways to have fun
23:39:55 <monqy> this guy plays slow :(
23:40:05 <elliott> monqy: everyone plays slower than you
23:40:17 <elliott> i'd probably play lower than this on zot (but maybe not when i get to the point of reaching zot)
23:40:32 <monqy> cashybrid is faster than me!!
23:40:37 <monqy> probably Elynae is faster than me too
23:40:44 <elliott> hey, this tv has "Vrestler"
23:40:51 <elliott> so titles (if that's what they're called) are translated???
23:41:02 <elliott> monqy: isn't cashybrid half bot
23:41:20 <monqy> that would explain things
23:41:35 <elliott> two orb guardians for the price of one
23:43:08 <elliott> monqy: he's dying now right
23:43:43 <monqy> it's also quite possibly he's not dying
23:44:23 <monqy> because resting in hall of zot is more dangerous than fleeing from it slowed
23:44:32 <monqy> if you've cleared the rest of the lvel
23:45:16 <elliott> i thought that troll was hostile for a second
23:45:32 <monqy> ooh i wonder what he'll do here
23:45:37 <elliott> troll just appears from nowhere on zot:5
23:46:17 <elliott> why doesn't he have any curing
23:46:29 <monqy> he's just not using it
23:47:04 <elliott> does scroll of teleport do that since it's -cTele
23:47:14 <monqy> scroll of tele is by default random
23:47:28 <monqy> but yeah -ctele means no ctele
23:47:29 <elliott> near starving for some reason
23:47:38 <monqy> Fast+Slow is what happens when you're hasted and slowed at the same time (it has no effect itself but blocks further hasting and slowing)
23:48:18 <monqy> it used to be that fast and slow just canceled each other but then you could do stuff like re-slow or re-haste
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23:48:43 <monqy> oh no where's he going now
23:49:09 <monqy> if he got the orb he'd have a glowy purp halo
23:49:30 <elliott> also why is his stash on lair:2 that's kinda weird
23:49:37 <elliott> does he notice you sent him a message mysteries of life
23:49:41 <monqy> lair:2 is a popular stash location
23:49:51 <monqy> because monsters that use items don't spawn on lair:2
23:49:59 <elliott> oh don't they? that's clever
23:49:59 <monqy> lair:1 gets stair spawns from the dungeon
23:50:12 <elliott> couldn't they walk down to lair:2 too
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23:50:18 <monqy> i think people have gotten jellies from dungeon on lair:1
23:50:32 <monqy> they spawn on the branch exit stairs
23:50:40 <monqy> and monsters don't do interlevel travel by themselves
23:50:41 * ion is tempted to plawl, but there’s a bunch of lectures to be watched and a bunch of homework to be done.
23:50:52 <elliott> ion: why plawl when you can wlawl
23:51:01 <elliott> send him something else so he notices
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23:51:23 <monqy> lots of people don't notice the Hit _ and it's so annoying
23:51:37 <elliott> you ahve to do something!!!
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23:51:55 <elliott> please send hi msomething oh god what if he
23:51:56 <monqy> i've bugged the devs about it before
23:52:05 * ion would wawl but you’re not plawl.
23:52:11 <elliott> ion: it's xgamer we're watching
23:52:16 <monqy> (Hit _) makes deaths instantly hilarious
23:52:22 <elliott> monqy: PLEASE DO SOMETHING!!!! :'(
23:52:32 <ion> Do we know xgamer?
23:52:33 <elliott> ion: ok you send him a message as soon as he stops fighting
23:52:37 <monqy> i dunno if sending another message redisplays the hit _ message
23:52:39 <elliott> i just noticed him since he was on zot
23:52:44 <elliott> monqy: it doesn't but it displays it in the
23:53:02 <elliott> did he really just tweak skills on zot
23:53:40 <elliott> SOMEONE DO SOMETHING this is a humanitarian crisis
23:53:41 <monqy> i've bugged devs about having blinking (Hit _) or at least more noticeably colored (Hit _) or a force_more by default on the beep! your pager goes off but nobody listened
23:53:50 <elliott> monqy: maybe i'll send them a patch
23:53:54 <monqy> i sent another message and it didn't do anything
23:54:09 <elliott> this is tormenting me every single second i can't enjoy the game like this
23:54:15 <monqy> elliott: you can try bugging him; he's in ##crawl
23:54:17 <ion> Yeah, the (Hit _) should be more noticeable.
23:54:21 <elliott> monqy: or maybe you could!!
23:54:34 <monqy> I've grown to like the (Hit _)
23:54:41 <ion> This level looks a lot like a Zot Defense level.
23:54:44 <monqy> so maybe they'll hit _!!!!
23:54:46 <elliott> the force_more thing might be better
23:54:57 <elliott> monqy: or maybe they'll get a headache
23:55:05 <elliott> actually what it should do is
23:55:10 <monqy> when i said blinking i meant
23:55:12 <monqy> elemental coloured
23:55:12 <ion> I’d hate it if everyone could keep force_moreing me on a whim. :-P
23:55:20 <elliott> monqy: by blinking i meant
23:55:21 <monqy> but elemental colour is a technical term you might not know
23:55:46 <ion> My terminal doesn’t support blinking text AFAIU.
23:56:01 <elliott> monqy: you sent the messages you bug him in ##crawl >:(
23:56:01 <monqy> it's a "colour" that's really a bunch of colours that change when crawl refreshes
23:56:09 <elliott> right, that would be better
23:56:27 <monqy> elliott: you send some messages and then bug him in ##crawl if it bothers you so much!
23:56:39 <elliott> monqy: you know it bothers you too!!!
23:56:41 <elliott> imagine if he wins like this
23:57:24 <monqy> best part is when he starts a new game and then gets the messages there
23:57:27 <monqy> preferably after dying horribly
23:57:44 <elliott> why isn't he checking ##crawl nooooo
23:59:01 <elliott> monqy: what did you send partially end my agony
23:59:22 <monqy> at different points
23:59:33 <monqy> maybe i'll send it again if this goes south
00:00:04 <monqy> maxhp-10% per mutlevel
00:01:49 <monqy> maybe he'll splat on the orb run
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00:02:11 <monqy> wow, quaffing might instead of dropping sutff to get rid of his burden
00:02:49 <monqy> might expired, mmmm
00:02:53 <monqy> hopefully he gets mothzerked
00:03:03 <elliott> monqy: do those moths zerk
00:03:29 <monqy> they have "rage" melee which berks stuff they hit and they also berk stuff in los
00:03:38 <monqy> so you get stuff like berserk orb guardians, which hurt
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00:04:12 <elliott> 01:03 <Blade-> !lg * tiles 0.10 ntv=0 ktyp!=quitting|leaving|winning killer!=tentacled monstrosity|greater naga|naga warrior max=xl -tv
00:04:16 <elliott> what is with the killer exclusions here
00:05:06 <monqy> exclusion of constriction deaths; presumably tiles players die to constriction in a boring predictable fassion, thus its exclusion
00:05:45 -!- itidus20 has joined.
00:05:46 <elliott> im glad i never had the desire to use tiles for a roguelike ever
00:06:43 <monqy> wow use G1 not X< aaagh
00:06:53 <elliott> what's wrong with X1 (just so I know)
00:07:01 <elliott> oh because it can use upstairs that are closer to other upstairs?
00:07:21 <monqy> X< is bad because it only goes one level at a time so you go through the dungeon slowly and have to do it each level
00:07:26 <monqy> GD1 goes to dungeon level
00:08:19 <monqy> orb run is for the most part real boring
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00:08:47 <monqy> but sometimes it can be crazy if you get, say, a silly powerful panlord
00:08:58 <monqy> or a 1 or two on a weak character
00:09:15 <coppro> why is TeX so beautiful
00:09:20 <elliott> i like how that guy didn't
00:09:38 <elliott> (it still bugs me when i see others not)
00:09:53 <monqy> it's bugging me that he's not dying
00:10:01 <monqy> at this rate he'll ascend with (Hit _)
00:10:10 <elliott> "A sufficiently persistent player will eventually rack up a couple wins with their Felid Chaos Knight that remains loyal to Xom no matter what, but that doesn't change the fact that felids are terrible and Xom is terrible and they aren't any better when you put them together."
00:10:13 <elliott> maybe i'll just play feck of feck
00:10:17 <elliott> (im addicted to reading stupid tavern threads now oops)
00:10:57 <elliott> i see nobody's done a 15-rune feck
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00:11:42 <elliott> 01:11 <xgamer> ah didn't see :( was too involved in the game
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00:12:15 <ion> Now back to homowork.
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00:21:34 <ion> elliott: You can type ca to CHOP ALL THE CORPSES.
00:22:03 <monqy> that sure sounds useful eh
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00:31:52 <ion> Matrix of Solidity would be a great title for a game.
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00:36:51 <elliott> monqy: should i keep the chain mail on
00:36:57 <monqy> train armour if you want better ac/ev (you want better ac/ev)
00:37:20 <elliott> i was gonna train unarmed combat to 10 before training other things but
00:37:23 <elliott> maybe i should train armour as well
00:37:37 <monqy> training uc to 10 is sensible too
00:37:46 <monqy> i think it's sensible??
00:38:01 <elliott> i just picked 10 arbitrarily (i kept it on after that but i trained other thniings too)
00:38:09 <elliott> i don't really know what i'm doing :(
00:38:43 <monqy> no but that sounds pretty reasonable
00:38:57 <elliott> okbut in that case maybe i should switch back to the other armour for now :'(
00:39:14 <monqy> do whatever feels right??? i dunnnno
00:39:39 <elliott> i wish i could split it like
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00:42:01 <elliott> _One of your 3 potions of curing freezes and shatters!
00:42:52 <elliott> perhaps one day monqy will return to us
00:42:57 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Thu May 3 17:42:56 2012
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00:46:58 <elliott> _h - a scroll labeled PNYVEGAPRO {tried on scroll labeled PNYVEGAPRO}
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00:48:47 <elliott> monqy: You finish putting on the cursed -4 cloak of the Fifty Eyes {+Blink MR Str+1}.
00:49:12 -!- elliott has changed nick to elliptiott.
00:49:32 <elliptiott> 01:48 <faze> every time i see elliott i think i see elliptic
00:49:49 <elliptiott> great, I don't even have remove curse :D
00:50:17 <ion> Not going to get a god?
00:51:13 <elliptiott> in that sure seeing monsters behind walls and stuff was nice but it never actually got me out of a tight spot
00:51:35 <elliptiott> so i'm considering going with makhleb again
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00:55:57 <ion> Have you tried vacuuming the dungeon for Nemelex yet?
00:56:06 <ion> Have you tried a deep elf summoner yet?
00:56:54 <elliptiott> You may choose your destination (press '.' or delete to select).
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01:00:17 <elliptiott> I quaffed a potion of gain strength but instead I just decomposed because it counts as a mutation.
01:03:13 <ion> I expected you to move left. :-\
01:04:09 <ion> Play a DESu.
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01:05:56 <elliptiott> telnet crawl.develz.org 345, then w and select elliott's letter if you want to see.
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01:07:08 <ion> Bind \{6}armour\{13} to a free key such as “1”.
01:07:13 <NihilistDandy> solarized-dark is probably the wrong color scheme for this :D
01:07:16 <elliptiott> I don't have any configuration changes.
01:07:37 <ion> You don’t even need to change configuration.
01:07:44 <ion> Hit… err, was it ` or ~
01:09:25 <ion> I use 1 for searching for armour, 2 for searching for my main weapon (e.g. axes) and 3 for searching for corpses i can eat/offer.
01:09:58 <ion> Me, too, except when i fight a bunch of guys at once or simply forget.
01:10:18 <elliptiott> Patashu: Of nothing. I haven't found the Temple yet.
01:10:24 <Patashu> what do you plan on taking
01:10:40 <ion> You should also play a hill orc monk for the hilarious bot messages on ##crawl.
01:10:47 <elliptiott> My experience with Ashenzari was disappointing.
01:10:58 <Patashu> if you got 5/6 star ash piety ash is good
01:11:01 <Patashu> but you never bound yourself enough
01:11:04 <Patashu> so, try him again sometime
01:11:12 <Patashu> so you can bind your weapon
01:11:22 <Patashu> really really long range divination
01:11:32 <Patashu> you can use bucklers as UC
01:12:31 <elliptiott> Anyway, Makhleb's combat abilities seem more useful than Ashenzari's divination abilities for a melee fighter to me.
01:12:55 <Patashu> he's a monk so he starts with **
01:12:59 <Patashu> even though he doesn't worship yet
01:13:03 <elliptiott> But since I don't have a god right now, it's greyed-out.
01:13:53 <NihilistDandy> So is Crawl just netback with more weirdness and Sierra-like dickishness
01:14:04 <elliptiott> Crawl isn't all that much like NetHack.
01:14:25 <ion> patashu: Oh? That’s cool. I guess that has been done within the last six months.
01:14:35 <Patashu> nihilist: it's not much like nethack
01:14:44 <Patashu> if you want a game like playing nethack, I recommend adom
01:15:10 <NihilistDandy> Compare this game to something, I suppose. I might like to play.
01:15:21 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Crawl is like NetHack but with larger maps and probably more grinding; it's more regular in that there's fewer spoilers that aren't monster statistics.
01:15:28 <Patashu> a roguelike that's actually fun to play unspoiled
01:15:40 <Patashu> you don't need to memorize like
01:15:45 <Patashu> the cost of things in shops before they're identified
01:15:48 <elliptiott> I would get frustrated if I didn't ask Henzell about new monsters I encounter.
01:15:53 <Patashu> what all these scrolls will do when read while confused
01:16:07 <Patashu> yeah, crawl is definitely more fun with henzell/gretell
01:16:26 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: FWIW, Crawl is probably the most popular roguelike.
01:16:43 <elliptiott> I just killed two jackals with a piece of paper.
01:16:55 <NihilistDandy> And what with hanging out in #haskell and #esoteric, you know popularity is my first concern :D
01:16:59 <ion> elliott: No, you didn’t. You killed them with your secondary claw attack.
01:17:34 <Patashu> no way to turn off aux attacks
01:18:10 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: If you want to play and you're in America, you might like to play on crawl.akrasiac.org instead.
01:18:40 <Sgeo> I still need to make a Scumbag Ola Bini image
01:19:54 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Also Crawl has autoexplore and autofight.
01:19:59 <elliptiott> Which makes the grinding aspect a lot less tedious.
01:20:01 <Patashu> the two best things about crawl
01:20:11 <Patashu> it would be better if grinding was eliminated
01:20:13 <elliptiott> (In case you thought I was actually pressing the direction keys that quickly.)
01:20:15 <Patashu> but making the grinding trivial is just as good
01:20:32 <elliptiott> (The autofight isn't anything magically special, it just does the attack you would do yourself in one turn.)
01:20:38 <elliptiott> (So you can spam tab a lot for weaker stuff.)
01:20:40 <Patashu> crawl tells you what monsters will probably be a tough fight for you
01:20:45 <Patashu> dark gray, gray, yellow, red
01:21:06 <elliptiott> I like how I had curing and heal wounds.
01:21:14 <ion> elliott: DESu!
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01:21:45 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: (You'll have to q and select the letter again if you want to keep watching.)
01:21:58 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Oh, and Crawl comes with a lot of interface tweaks compared to NetHack.
01:22:10 <elliptiott> I'm playing with stock configuration and the autopickup, colours, travel etc. are all more or less how I like them.
01:22:32 <NihilistDandy> Colors are inline with my terminal colors, so that's good enough for me :D
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01:22:35 <Patashu> another favourite feature of crawl of mine
01:22:41 <Patashu> is the ability to put forced pauses on regexes
01:22:49 <Patashu> so I can tell the game I want it to pause whenever I miscast a spell
01:22:53 <Patashu> or whenever two slime creatures merge
01:22:56 <Patashu> or whatever silly thing I die because of
01:23:08 <elliptiott> I couldn't do that because I'd have to put every message on pause.
01:23:27 <elliptiott> The joke is that I die from everything.
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01:23:51 <elliptiott> Do butterflies ever attack under any circumstances?
01:24:00 <elliptiott> The only person Sequell knows to have tied from a butterfly is by inner flame.
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01:25:01 <Patashu> you could modify the game to give them an attack
01:25:04 <Patashu> but you'd be playing offline
01:25:34 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?title=Xom (Henzell links to this in its Xom entry so I'm guessing it's not as terrible as some of the wiki.)
01:26:11 <Patashu> not everything in the wiki is bad
01:26:14 <Patashu> mostly it's the advice that's bad
01:27:46 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: (Not to say that Crawl isn't entirely free of Sierra-style stuff, btw; it's quite possible for a monster to decide to show up rather before it's reasonable to.)
01:28:00 <elliptiott> (But you can run away. Well, most of the time.)
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01:36:56 <Patashu> fast as anything else I guess
01:37:48 <elliptiott> Maybe I'll enchant that plate armour for later.
01:39:19 <Patashu> you should enchant secondary pieces of armour first
01:39:22 <Patashu> since you're the least likely to replace thrm
01:39:28 <Patashu> even plate might be replaced by dragon scale or cpa
01:40:00 <ion> Add ”hits you from afar” to force_more_messages.
01:40:02 <elliptiott> Because I have no viable getaway plan?
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01:40:26 <Patashu> they're the same speed as you
01:40:38 <Patashu> they WERE a tile away from you
01:40:41 <Patashu> until you decided to fight them
01:41:28 <Patashu> tele is risky on a mostly uncleared level
01:41:57 <Patashu> imo waste of a blinking scroll but ok
01:43:52 <elliptiott> So what is the penalty for a buckler exactly?
01:44:02 <Patashu> let me see if I can back that up with numbers
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01:44:26 <Patashu> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqvhLOPFHpiMdHFWbVpnU3F6M2VlQWV5Rk56UDNaNHc#gid=1
01:44:46 <Patashu> it looks like at shields 5 the penalty for buckler wearing vanishes
01:48:50 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: What server are you playing on?
01:49:13 <NihilistDandy> elliptiott: The first one you linked. Just died, though. Dropped through an escape hatch surrounded by monsters :/
01:49:33 <NihilistDandy> 77 NihilistDandy the Grave Robber (level 2, -1/19 (20) HPs)
01:49:41 <elliptiott> Yeah, try not to fall down escape hatches :P
01:50:44 <elliptiott> I started out as a Mummy Chaos Knight.
01:50:51 <elliptiott> That's not an endorsement of Mummy Chaos Knights.
01:50:55 <elliptiott> For the love of god, don't play a Mummy Chaos Knight.
01:51:38 <elliptiott> FWIW, the combinations that are Bad are greyed out.
01:51:43 <elliptiott> Once you pick a species or background.
01:51:43 <itidus20> non-trivially suboptimal (just kidding im not at all aware of it)
01:51:51 <elliptiott> That doesn't mean the remaining combinations are Good.
01:52:25 <elliptiott> Right now it's using terminal codes that make all your grey messages appear black to other terminals.
01:52:34 <Patashu> if you like hitting things hard, play a minotaur berserker or hill orc berserker. if you like casting spells and running away from things, try spriggan wizard or spriggan venom mage
01:52:38 <elliptiott> Because of silly tailor-to-the-terminal-you're-using stuff.
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01:53:42 <elliptiott> Dunno; you'll have to keep playing to tell.
01:54:07 <elliptiott> Also, "c" over a corpse to chop it into edible chunks.
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01:54:25 <ion> Which isn’t useful for vampires.
01:54:25 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Seriously, drop that leather armour and spear :P
01:54:43 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Uhh, dropping things takes one turn per item though.
01:54:46 <elliptiott> So be wary of doing that around monsters.
01:55:15 <elliptiott> You should have picked that gnoll off with a blowgun, really :)
01:55:28 <elliptiott> Gnolls are particularly nasty, so don't worry too much.
01:55:31 <ion> Try a less kynäniska berserker.
01:55:59 <elliptiott> I second the MiBe recommendation, despite having no experience with it.
01:56:15 <elliptiott> A lot of other combinations will require quite a bit more delicacy early on, methinks.
01:56:21 <ion> Also, TrBe is a tank.
01:56:34 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Also, with berserkers you worship Trog! He loves bloodshed and hates magic.
01:56:37 <ion> It might be fun in the early game.
01:56:39 <elliptiott> And you get to go berserk, which makes everything go red and you get stronger.
01:56:49 <elliptiott> (You get exhausted afterwards, but oh well.)
01:57:14 <ion> Yes, you get exhausted after berserking just like in real life.
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01:57:35 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Also, with ghouls you regain HP when eating.
01:58:27 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: BTW, G is the travel command. So once you've fully explored, G> gets you down quickly.
02:00:16 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Press p if you want to convert to Ashey.
02:01:02 <elliptiott> (It likes you cursing your items (which just means you can't take them off).)
02:01:12 <elliptiott> (In return you get info about the map and monsters nearby and the like.)
02:01:35 <elliptiott> (Also changing god brings down the wrath of the previous god on you, so you're pretty much stuck with Ashenzari.)
02:01:37 <ion> Hit ^ to see your boundness.
02:02:22 <ion> MiBe. Or TrBe. Or somethingBe.
02:02:52 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Oh yeah, you probably want to press m and adjust your skills.
02:02:59 <ion> You can berserk with a.
02:03:02 <elliptiott> Patashu and ion can advise about the best skills for MiBe.
02:03:13 <elliptiott> Don't use the arrow keys, just use the letters. :p
02:03:17 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Yeah, turn everything btu axes off.
02:03:31 <Patashu> and swap away from hthat hand axe asap, it's shit
02:03:47 <Patashu> war axe, broad axe, battleaxe and executioner's axe from worst to best
02:03:48 <ion> Switch to manual mode to make sure only axes are trained.
02:04:31 <ion> (But you might want to train fighting and armour as well at least at some point.)
02:04:51 <elliptiott> I hear Fighting got seriously nerfed recently.
02:05:05 <Patashu> don't train fighting until about xl16
02:05:21 <ion> You can move and fight diagonally with yubn.
02:05:36 <ion> Moving with hjkl when there’s an enemy diagonally next to you gives them free hits.
02:05:53 <ion> And escaping with hjkl when you want to move diagonally gives them free hits also.
02:06:00 <elliptiott> I bet NihilistDandy is using arrow keys.
02:06:44 <elliptiott> Don't convert to Ashey this time. Trog doesn't like that. :p
02:07:07 <ion> Now hit a. Trog likes it when you burn spellbooks.
02:07:22 <ion> No, you’re not supposed to.
02:07:29 <elliptiott> It was out of LOS when I said that, I think.
02:08:16 <elliptiott> Okay, that didn't actually get you a star of piety. But it got you a fraction of one!
02:08:22 <elliptiott> The more piety you get, the more nice abilities you get.
02:08:23 <ion> The leather armour is better than your animal skin.
02:08:46 <ion> d, to drop useless items, but you usually don’t need to drop rotting chunks since they’ll just rot away.
02:10:00 <ion> When in the situation @.X where X is an enemy, don’t move toward her. Let her move toward you. You’ll get the first hit.
02:10:27 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: (Use . to wait a turn. Also, 5 makes you rest to restore HP, which is useful if you run out of it and there's nothing dangerous around.)
02:11:00 <ion> You gave it two free hits.
02:11:18 <ion> Don’t go down yet.
02:11:59 <ion> Especially a +4 chain mail. :-P
02:12:24 <Patashu> skin/robe, leather, ring, scale ,chain, splint, plate, dragon/crystal
02:12:25 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: /msg Henzell ??scale mail
02:12:27 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: /msg Henzell ??ring mail
02:12:32 <Patashu> well, not all dragon armours
02:12:34 <Patashu> some are meant for casters
02:12:39 <elliptiott> The lower the EV is the better you have to be at armour to wear it effectively.
02:13:51 <elliptiott> (Also, see ??butterfly for the most important warning in the game.)
02:14:04 <elliptiott> (And ??butterfly[2], etc. for the next pages.)
02:14:47 * elliptiott has now proudly set NihilistDandy up for a life of avoiding butterflies.
02:14:54 <ion> Don’t drop the plate armour.
02:15:13 <elliptiott> But you're probably not good enough to use it yet.
02:15:21 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Try Ctrl+F axe<ENTER> to search for axes.
02:15:37 <ion> And use diagonal movement. :-P
02:16:27 <elliptiott> Numpad also works (but I'll laugh at you).
02:17:05 <elliptiott> Some people use numpad with the top number row.
02:17:17 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: If it lists an item, hit its letter and . to travel to it.
02:17:39 <elliptiott> (And if you get interrupted, G<enter> to continue.)
02:18:08 <ion> When in the situation @.X where X is an enemy, don’t move toward her. Let her move toward you. You’ll get the first hit.
02:18:19 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Read those scrolls, man.
02:18:32 <elliptiott> (r<letter> works too, and is quicker.)
02:18:46 <ion> Preferably with a weak enemy in sight, so certain scrolls that affect them are identified.
02:18:51 <elliptiott> Generally you should try and use them on potions (to discover a scroll of identify), or if you know identify then armour or something.
02:19:13 <ion> And preferably wearing a ring or an amulet, so the scroll that curses them is identified.
02:19:16 <elliptiott> Whoa, what happened to your display there?
02:19:23 <ion> And preferably wearing something that’s cursed, so the scroll of remove curse is identified.
02:19:59 <elliptiott> Again, r<letter> is the same as i<letter>r, but faster :P
02:20:20 <elliptiott> Since you tried it and it didn't id itself.
02:21:09 <elliptiott> The potions are the most important to id.
02:21:22 <elliptiott> But it's not nice to have to quaff-id potions at random when you're about to die.
02:21:44 <ion> d,<enter> to drop the useless potion.
02:22:34 <Patashu> bad potions are only useful to characters who learn the spell 'evaporate'
02:22:37 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Take that helmet and wear it.
02:22:48 <ion> I wouldn’t. :-P
02:23:10 <elliptiott> Patashu: Just in case I ever need to be slow, or degenerated, or poisoned.
02:23:38 <ion> I’d run away for now and come back when i’m more badass.
02:23:40 <elliptiott> You can either run or try to take him.
02:23:47 <ion> Oh, i remembered you have berserk.
02:24:21 <elliptiott> Well, you can go for it. But you might die :P
02:24:30 <elliptiott> Walk up to one square next to him slowly in case anything happens.
02:24:32 <ion> Don’t give him free shots.
02:24:51 <elliptiott> Leave a space between you and him, like ion says.
02:25:03 <ion> Now berserk.
02:25:40 <elliptiott> You probably didn't need the berk after all, but...
02:25:46 <elliptiott> Not sure what to increase for minotaurs.
02:26:29 <Patashu> I'm not even watching, should I be?
02:26:51 <ion> You might want to gain some intelligence so a cursed ring of Int-9999 doesn’t kill you.
02:27:27 <ion> I shouldn’t be watching, i should be doing homowork.
02:27:36 <elliptiott> ion: That's why I told him to identify rings before wearing them! ;)
02:27:43 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: OK, now rest off with 5.
02:28:06 <ion> Rest until you’re not slow anymore.
02:28:08 <elliptiott> You're slow and exhausted; not very good for combat.
02:28:27 <ion> Being exhausted doesn’t matter much, you just won’t be able to berserk AFAIU.
02:28:45 <elliptiott> The scythe isn't the right kind of weapon for you.
02:28:52 <elliptiott> The robe is not interesting if you're going heav armour.
02:29:10 <elliptiott> Oh, what's your armour situation again?
02:29:28 <elliptiott> It'll be a while before you'll want to switch to plate, I think.
02:29:40 <elliptiott> Maybe stick the armour skill on for a bit so you can wear the plate.
02:29:44 <elliptiott> OTOH, +4 chain might be better than +0 plate.
02:29:50 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Press b to train axes more, though.
02:30:02 <elliptiott> Also, you can't eat corpses unless you're hungry (or one of the races who don't care about that).
02:30:10 <ion> They seem to have the same AC bonus, actually.
02:30:13 <elliptiott> Yiuf is dangerous sometimes. But usually not.
02:30:31 <ion> With berserk you should be able to handle him.
02:31:36 <elliptiott> (You can also W to wear rather htan going through i.)
02:31:58 <ion> harcustangent
02:32:23 <elliptiott> If you're not hungry and have chunks, press p on corpses instead.
02:32:26 <elliptiott> It sacrifices them and makes Trog happy.
02:33:03 <ion> Now try the rings that aren’t cursed.
02:33:29 <ion> It says it’s uncursed.
02:33:40 <elliptiott> Now you don't have to bother training intelligence any more.
02:33:50 <elliptiott> You could wear that plate armour now, see if it has a nice bonus.
02:33:52 <ion> Well, unless you want another ring in its place. :-P
02:34:00 <ion> It’s cursed. It’s probably bad.
02:34:20 <elliptiott> Well, that's not bad. Even if the axe sucks.
02:34:26 <ion> They’ll only uncurse things you’re wearing IIRC.
02:34:47 <ion> It’s okay, now you’ll be able to read-id a scroll of remove curse.
02:34:49 <elliptiott> Uncurse armour scrolls arent uncommon.
02:35:05 <elliptiott> BTW, you'll want to take off the armour skill after a while.
02:35:28 <ion> I take o said it has explored everything on the previous level?
02:35:40 <elliptiott> Not sure, but Dungeon:[123] are so boring anyway.
02:35:56 <ion> Except when you find useful loot.
02:37:18 <elliptiott> There's 2 scrolls of id there; autopickup will get htem for you
02:37:44 <elliptiott> The potions are the priority, but iding the armour would be nice too.
02:37:52 <ion> Well, i’d just drop it.
02:37:55 <ion> the armour
02:38:03 <ion> A waste of an id scroll.
02:38:20 <ion> Isn’t it unlikely to be good?
02:38:23 <elliptiott> ion: I meant since the first one was multi-use.
02:38:55 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Ijyb is another unique.
02:39:28 <Patashu> he's a goblin but with more hp
02:40:05 <elliptiott> That sure is an enchanted crappy axe :D
02:40:25 <ion> A +7 hand axe would “sure” be an enchanted crappy axe. :-P
02:41:34 <ion> Do everything elliott suggests.
02:41:38 <ion> (That was a serious suggestion.)
02:42:00 <elliptiott> I only started playing like 11 days ago. :(
02:42:50 <elliptiott> (I end up chopping kobold anyway because I uncritically c most corpses.)
02:43:40 <elliptiott> Don't sacrifice when you're hungry, either :P
02:44:24 <elliptiott> (That's why I play ghouls, so I get HP for it. :p)
02:44:49 <ion> Nooo, offer it to Trog.
02:45:26 <elliptiott> (Can you even do Hand of Trog right now?)
02:45:58 <elliptiott> Might be worth doing that (and perhaps taking off armour.)
02:46:00 <NihilistDandy> Sidenote, have to disconnect quickly. Getting off the wifi and onto wired
02:46:57 <elliptiott> ion: Can you not train invocations with Trog?
02:47:02 <ion> Hit * to show all skills.
02:47:03 <elliptiott> It's been a while since I played a berserker.
02:47:08 <ion> And train armour.
02:47:30 <ion> Probably because he hasn’t used it almost at all so far.
02:47:49 <ion> That doesn’t affect which skills are shown by default.
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02:49:59 <AndroUser> Computer dropped me into initramfs's ash after reboot after a nasty kernel panic
02:50:09 -!- AndroUser has changed nick to SgeoN1.
02:50:21 <elliptiott> I thought you were Nihilist_ for a second.
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02:50:27 -!- Nihilist_ has changed nick to NihilistDandy.
02:51:25 <elliptiott> SgeoN1: It means your system is fucked.
02:51:36 <elliptiott> Don't bother chopping unless you're hungry.
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02:52:07 <elliptiott> Never berserk when you're squares away!
02:52:13 <elliptiott> It runs out fast, and even faster if you move.
02:53:44 <SgeoN1> Elliott, any chance that hd might not be seated proprrly?
02:53:53 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: You're having really bad axe issues.
02:53:58 <elliptiott> SgeoN1: I don't see why, if it can load the initramfs and all.
02:54:00 <SgeoN1> Or would it not even get to here?
02:54:32 <SgeoN1> il go use my windows comp
02:55:10 <elliptiott> You finish putting on the +0 pair of gloves of Keuschite {rPois Str+3 Int+2
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02:56:40 <elliptiott> You don't need to worry about non-ranged monsters when they're a few squares away.
02:57:08 <elliptiott> (Also, you probably should have rested before going on, but you didn't lose much HP, so it's not a big deal.)
02:57:48 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Orc wizards can be nasty.
02:57:59 <elliptiott> (Orc priests moreso, since they can smite you, which really hurts.)
02:59:17 <elliptiott> Crimson imps are annoying but not especially dangerous.
02:59:54 <elliptiott> Just spam tab and make sure you don't lose much HP.
03:00:04 <elliptiott> (BTW, tab will also move you closer to monsters.)
03:00:13 <elliptiott> So you can just tap it wildly until it dies.
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03:00:44 <elliptiott> 04:00 <Henzell> o[1/2]: This is the second-best button in Crawl. See {tab} for the best one.
03:00:46 <elliptiott> 04:00 <Henzell> tab[1/2]: This is the second-best button in Crawl. See {o} for the best one.
03:01:09 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: That's the ghost of another player.
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03:01:25 <NihilistDandy> elliptiott: That would be why Henzell knew nothing about it :/
03:01:36 <elliptiott> 04:01 <Sequell> 7. Surr, XL7 SEAM, T:5113: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/Surr/morgue-Surr-20120504-021257.txt
03:01:47 <elliptiott> It's... probably fairly dangerous; I don't know much about elves.
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03:02:32 <NihilistDandy> Surr's ghost (experienced Sludge Elf Arcane Marksman) comes into view.
03:02:52 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: (Did you not rest before exploring more?)
03:03:16 <coppro> http://magiclampoon.com/blog/2012/05/03/avacyn-returns-brings-dice/ true story
03:03:28 <elliptiott> If you lose any more health it's time to come up with a better plan.
03:03:57 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: You can quaff curing to stop being poisoned, but you haven't actually lost any more health yet.
03:04:17 <elliptiott> As I was typing: It might be worth quaffing heal wounds, though, but maybe you should wait until you lose some more HP.
03:04:44 <elliptiott> It doesn't seem to be much of a threat but it has too much HP for its own good.
03:04:45 <ion> No need to.
03:04:59 <elliptiott> All that axes skill is going to waste. :p
03:05:05 <ion> No, it isn’t.
03:05:34 <ion> Don’t step on shafts.
03:06:02 <elliptiott> Phantoms are like crimson imps, but more annoying
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03:06:46 <ion> Just saw them. Nice.
03:06:58 <ion> And drop the cursed plate armour. :-)
03:07:31 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Worms can hit hard ...but you have a lot of HP, so it doesn't matter.
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03:07:44 <elliptiott> Though you don't technically have to worry until you get to be starving.
03:07:58 <ion> But you can’t berserk if you’re too hungry.
03:09:04 <elliptiott> FWIW, you're doing pretty impressively for your 4th game.
03:09:12 <elliptiott> (Which will make your inevitably stupid death all the more crushing!)
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03:10:03 <ion> The (+1) means there’s one more item in that place (hit !a to see it).
03:10:21 <elliptiott> The orcish hand axe is probably not any better, because it is probably +0 and you are not an orc.
03:10:30 <elliptiott> (Even if it was +1, your current axe is +1 too.)
03:11:24 <ion> The race prefix doesn’t mean much if your race doesn’t match it. Dwarven items are more durable against acid, though.
03:11:38 <elliptiott> The Temple has a bunch of altars so you can get a god.
03:11:54 <elliptiott> You're with Trog, so (a) you don't need a god and (b) even if you wanted a god more than Trog, you're SOL, because Trog's wrath is nasty.
03:11:54 <ion> You might want to make your first stash in the temple. Monsters don’t spawn there (but they can follow you there).
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03:12:50 <ion> ^W0 at the < to make a waypoint at that place.
03:12:56 -!- Deewiant has joined.
03:13:04 <ion> ^G0 to return to it later.
03:13:24 <ion> ^G0 will keep working when you move the stash elsewhere.
03:14:17 <ion> At the moment you don’t need to since you’re strong and you’re not near the item number limit.
03:14:20 <elliptiott> I'm not sure you have much worthless stuff to drop.
03:14:58 <ion> But later you’ll have more stuff you can carry at once, or scrolls of enchant blah you’ll want to stash so they won’t get burned etc.
03:15:21 <ion> Kill the plants to get the stuff under them.
03:15:33 <ion> The ones with stuff under them.
03:15:55 <elliptiott> (You can tell there's stuff under them because of the inversion.)
03:16:12 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Wands you can id by zapping at weak things.
03:16:18 <elliptiott> (You don't need spellcasting skill for it.)
03:16:53 <ion> Zap at the wall adjacent the K in a way that hits the K.
03:16:59 <ion> That will identify wands of digging.
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03:18:09 <elliptiott> Once you start seeing a lot of red slow down with the tab spam.
03:18:15 <elliptiott> That ) probably has an orc corpse for you.
03:18:27 <elliptiott> Explore a bit more, maybe you'll find something to eat.
03:18:39 <elliptiott> Centaurs are nasty buggers at a distance.
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03:18:47 <elliptiott> Duck n-wards so that it has to run up to you.
03:19:09 <ion> Also, you can force multiple enemies to fight you one by one by getting them to a narrow corridor.
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03:19:38 <ion> Retreat to a narrow corridor.
03:19:45 <elliptiott> There's nothing faster than you, so press X.
03:20:14 <ion> One that’s in an explored area and one that you can escape from if needed.
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03:20:28 <elliptiott> It's to see where a narrow corridor is.
03:21:00 <elliptiott> Right, so you can retrat to that corridor.
03:21:12 <ion> (Centaurs are faster than you, though.)
03:21:15 <elliptiott> Make sure to cut all the corners, or you'll waste turns and get hit.
03:21:19 <elliptiott> ion: Yeah, but the centaur isn't in vision right now.
03:21:25 <elliptiott> And he's being crowded by other stuff, anyway.
03:21:49 <ion> Go SW twice and then west.
03:22:14 <ion> This one you can retreat away from.
03:22:17 <ion> to a known area
03:22:46 <ion> You can’t while starving.
03:23:11 <elliptiott> You'll probably need a ration as well, but you can eat all the corpses first
03:23:37 <ion> Try the ring and the amulet.
03:23:43 <ion> I thought they are the same. But i’m not sure.
03:24:09 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: BTW, eX also works for iXe, and similarly PX for iXp.
03:24:19 <ion> “Meat weighs 8, is 5000 nutrition. Bread weighs 8, is 4400 nutrition.”
03:24:48 -!- Sgeo has joined.
03:24:58 <ion> It does something, it just didn’t get identified immediately.
03:25:00 <elliptiott> It does something; you just don't know what yet.
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03:25:48 <ion> Keep it on, it might still get identified if it affects something noticeably.
03:25:50 -!- Deewiant has joined.
03:25:55 <elliptiott> Gnolls aren't really dangerous; a pack of gnolls is.
03:27:15 <elliptiott> It's probably overpriced rubbish, but check it out anyway.
03:27:16 <ion> Just hit o, it’ll go there.
03:27:48 <ion> I wouldn’t buy anything, but it’s worth keeping in mind if you’re starving at some point without food and with extra cash.
03:28:01 <elliptiott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_(Obama–Biden_campaign_slogan) lol, the article got even tinier
03:29:07 <NihilistDandy> Henzell suggests that necrophages are not a huge deal? Or are they an enormous deal and Henzell is a master of understatement?
03:29:36 <elliptiott> Note that they're yellow; you shouldn't trust the colours, but you can trust them if Henzell backs them up.
03:29:48 <elliptiott> Case in point: orc warriors can be quite scary.
03:29:54 <elliptiott> Though probably not with the kind of strength you have.
03:30:35 <elliptiott> Maybe berk the warrior if it gives you any trouble.
03:30:52 <elliptiott> Just autoexplore if there's nothing in view.
03:31:09 <ion> Don’t fight them all at once
03:31:43 <elliptiott> OK, well, you're getting hit by the warrior's axes.
03:31:48 <elliptiott> That's why you keep one in to a corridor.
03:33:17 <ion> Eat what you need and offer the rest before resting, so they won’t spoil.
03:35:08 <ion> Set character_set = unicode in your config for Unicode goodness.
03:35:37 <ion> They’re hideous now. :-P
03:36:29 <ion> Just autoexplore
03:36:30 <elliptiott> You can walk right up to it if you want.
03:38:03 <elliptiott> You can probably kill ogres like nobody's business now.
03:38:35 <elliptiott> Fair enough. ion might be able to advise about training more.
03:39:13 <ion> In the past i’d have trained fighting as well, but i’m not sure what its effect is now.
03:39:29 <elliptiott> But you could add it, and focus armour too.
03:39:43 <ion> With unarmed combat you’ll get better aux attacks with horns. I don’t know how good they are.
03:39:46 <elliptiott> Yeah. Train it up a bit, no harm done.
03:40:02 <ion> You probably won’t need the others.
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03:40:45 <ion> fighting[1/1]: The Fighting skill gives you a bonus to accuracy and damage in melee, and improves your hit points by ((1+racial_factor/10) * Fighting * XL) / 8 (see {hp}).
03:41:24 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: When kobolds throw stuff, back up like you did.
03:41:30 <elliptiott> Then they have to run to you, and they're weaklings in melee.
03:41:42 <Patashu> fighting gives almost no boost to combat
03:41:44 <Patashu> you take it for the extra hp
03:41:47 <ion> Ditto for centaurs. Hide from them until you can get next to them and then melee them.
03:41:56 <Patashu> and it gives almost no extra hp until xl16+
03:41:59 <Patashu> so, don't train it until Later (tm)
03:42:22 <ion> Yeah, down.
03:42:28 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Swap your fighting for UC.
03:42:44 <ion> Perhaps Patashu can tell us how useful UC is for a minotaur.
03:42:49 <elliptiott> Though they can go invisible, which i sannoying.
03:42:49 <ion> I have no idea.
03:42:54 <elliptiott> Not a problem if you get them in a corridor.
03:43:12 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Just keep fighting upwards.
03:43:17 <elliptiott> It's invisible, but it's not going anywhere :)
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03:45:17 <elliptiott> Or you'll just end up eating, hungry, eating, hungry, etc.
03:45:30 <elliptiott> Wow, this is like the levl of annoying shit.
03:46:41 <ion> There should really be a status item for autopickup being off.
03:46:51 <elliptiott> That's if you're going Nemelex, which you aren't, because Trog would get really upset.
03:47:00 <ion> No, he won’t.
03:47:10 <ion> Oh, you meant for switching religions.
03:47:11 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Sacrifice those corpses, btw.
03:47:36 <elliptiott> Walk up to the centaur so it can't range you.
03:47:43 <elliptiott> Then kill it, the orcs, get the amulet, money, then run up the upstairs.
03:47:57 <zzo38> You cannot use ranged attacks in that game in only one range?
03:48:00 <elliptiott> If a name comes up on your screen, that's a bit scary :)
03:48:12 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: See ??duvessa and ??dowan.
03:48:16 <ion> Don’t run.
03:48:23 <zzo38> elliptiott: Then they need to fix it.
03:48:24 <ion> The orc priest will smite you from distance.
03:48:48 <ion> And one of the es is a mage, {,s}he’ll probably have some ranged spells, too.
03:49:20 <elliptiott> Eat some of them corpses before resint.g
03:49:30 <ion> ,, to see the items as a list.
03:50:15 <elliptiott> OK, get the amulet and money and scroll, then eat up some more.
03:50:19 <ion> Except the glowing axe.
03:50:22 <Patashu> have no bigger axes spawned yet?
03:50:29 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Actually, you could probably stay on this level, and then go up once you've explored it all.
03:50:42 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Pick up the amulet and money while waiting for the nausea to end.
03:50:43 <Patashu> what's the "? amulet of inaccuracy?
03:51:06 <Patashu> amulet of who-da-fuck-knows
03:51:26 <ion> ^F. to get a list of everything on this level.
03:51:58 <ion> I’d just go up and take care of the unfinished level, though.
03:52:02 <elliptiott> You don't have any curses to remove, though.
03:52:21 <zzo38> Does it have a scroll or potion to add a curse?
03:52:34 <Patashu> if you hit some things with it
03:52:36 <elliptiott> Wield the axe, go <, then eat a meat ration.
03:52:46 <ion> Be sure not to remove the amulet of faith, you’ll lose a bunch of piety that way. But you’ll gain piety (and get awesome gifts sooner) wearing it.
03:53:00 <ion> gain piety faster, that is.
03:53:18 <zzo38> In ADOM it is possible to curse items if you have a cursed watery potion or a cursed scroll of uncursing, but there isn't any good ways to guaranteed to get those things.
03:53:32 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Next time you see something weak, zap-test those wands.
03:53:46 <ion> There are scrolls to curse stuff, yeah.
03:53:48 <Patashu> zzo38: what items would you deliberately curse in adom?
03:54:29 <Patashu> he read a scroll of curse weapon
03:54:44 <elliptiott> Can you ^Faxe? I'm shocked nothing amazing has turned up.
03:55:02 <zzo38> Patashu: Potion of exchange is usually better when cursed (if you are using it carefully!), if your character is dark elf then spider bread is better cursed, and sometimes you may curse something so that when you sell it and then purchase it again later, it doesn't cost as much money.
03:55:05 <Patashu> it's always the first one that gets you
03:55:51 <zzo38> Patashu: Do you believe these things?
03:56:18 <zzo38> And these are not the only reasons to curse things.
03:56:31 <elliptiott> Hit _, you have an (old by now) message from me.
03:57:10 <ion> Burn the book when an O is over it.
03:57:27 <elliptiott> You gotta learn to look at your HP meter before hitting o.
03:57:46 <elliptiott> BTW, Trog's Hand is a useful ability you haven't used yet; it makes your HP regenerate faster and gives you some magic resistance.
03:57:54 <elliptiott> It's useful in slower-burning fights than you'd use berserk with.
03:58:00 <elliptiott> Also, you should probably eat a ration.
03:59:00 <elliptiott> What is that centaur doing with a wand?
03:59:02 <kmc> so this is pretty much #whateverthefuck-dungeon-game now?
03:59:07 <zzo38> But I suppose, there might also be reasons for cursing items when doing some kind of challenge games too
03:59:07 <Patashu> centaurs can have wands randomly
03:59:18 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy started playing after watching me.
03:59:43 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Zap-test those wands on that K.
03:59:47 <NihilistDandy> And I am doing mildly well, with elliott's guidance and occasional screaming
04:00:09 <elliptiott> N.B. I'm still terrible, but I've absorbed others' wisdom.
04:00:26 <elliptiott> You should probably zap it with the other wand.
04:00:37 <elliptiott> (It won't stay your friend for long and also it's weak as hell, so cruelty is fine..)
04:00:43 <elliptiott> You need to aim it at the kobold this time.
04:00:46 <ion> Remember to zap the wall adjacent to the monster in a way that hits the monster to identify wands of digging.
04:02:33 <elliptiott> Teleport traps are harmless unless there's dangerous stuff on the level.
04:02:43 <Sgeo> What's with Computer Science people and fruit?
04:02:49 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: You're two stars away from full piety, btw.
04:04:25 <elliptiott> General wisdom is to do them after the Lair.
04:04:43 <ion> Increasingly bad. The last level of branches tends to be much harder than the ones before it, too.
04:04:45 <elliptiott> And not all orcs are as easy as the three you've encountered.
04:05:03 <Patashu> orcish mines can randomly be really hard. the lair can randomly be really hard as well, but when orcish mines is hard you get boulders thrown at you
04:05:05 <elliptiott> You'd want a double-digit XL, at the very least.
04:05:08 <Patashu> when lair is hard you just have to run real fast
04:05:32 <elliptiott> I don't know how dangerous Maurice is.
04:06:03 <elliptiott> So maybe you should zap confusion at him.
04:07:38 <elliptiott> If you used W, you wouldn't have to mentally filter things ;)
04:08:43 <elliptiott> Oh. Don't bother until you have something better.
04:08:53 <NihilistDandy> I'm just a berserker, what kind of intelligence do you want from me? :D
04:08:59 <zzo38> Can Map be made a monad if the keys is monoid? Can it be applicative if the keys is monoid?
04:09:28 <Patashu> cloak of poison resistance? nice
04:09:43 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Eat that corpse then show Patashu your gloves.
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04:10:11 <Patashu> rpois doesn't stack, unfortunately
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04:11:11 <elliptiott> BTW, since you know a lot of scrolls now, when you go to read-test one, use \ to see which items you know (and - to invert it to see ones you don't know).
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04:11:19 <elliptiott> Some of them are nasty, so you can see what it might be.
04:11:25 <zzo38> Does the game have any mode which makes all items to be initially cursed?
04:11:43 <Patashu> if you like having your entire inventory cursed, you can do an ossuary portal vault
04:12:04 <elliptiott> That's what the green background means.
04:12:22 <ion> And make sure it’s next to you when you use stairs.
04:12:31 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: It's humour. Quite different.
04:12:36 <elliptiott> ion: Or just ignore it and let it evaporate.
04:12:42 <ion> It won’t evaporate.
04:13:08 <elliptiott> Sacrifice more corpses. Except you're hungry.
04:13:12 <elliptiott> This is why I hate Crawl's hunger system.
04:13:14 <pikhq_> Huh. More people live in New York City than live in Norway.
04:13:43 <Patashu> I hate crawl's hunger system too
04:13:57 <ion> You haven’t explored this one yet.
04:14:12 <zzo38> s/exploring/exploding/
04:14:40 <elliptiott> Patashu: Yeah, I only play things with different hunger mechanics (can eat corpses while not hungry, gets HP from eating, etc.) now.
04:15:17 <ion> You can make sure it goes into a corner and it won’t be able to hide from you.
04:15:50 <elliptiott> Et the corpse and let your abomination chase the beast.
04:16:41 <ion> nihilistdandy: You might want to set easy_eat_chunks = true, easy_eat_gourmand = true, auto_eat_chunks = true.
04:16:58 <elliptiott> ion: (That's not a good idea if you worship a corpse-loving God, surely.)
04:17:07 <NihilistDandy> Strictly speaking, I have no idea where to do that
04:17:09 <Patashu> elliptiott, they help a lot
04:17:19 <Patashu> it doesn't butcher for you
04:17:27 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: You edit it in the pre-game menu.
04:17:33 <ion> My config diffed against the defaults: https://github.com/ion1/crawl-config/compare/master-base...master#files_bucket
04:18:06 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: 05:18 <Henzell> erolcha[2/2]: <Danei> erolcha is your "crawl can and will try to kill you" warning
04:18:07 <NihilistDandy> A unique ogre magess spawned with a random set of spells, which include friendly things like banishment to the Abyss, paralysis, and LCS. Do not underestimate her
04:18:18 <elliptiott> I don't have much Erolcha experience, so ask ion and Patashu.
04:18:34 <elliptiott> Well, you could run downstairs, but she's probably worth a lot of XP. :p
04:19:03 <Patashu> well, first thing to do is
04:19:20 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: (He means Hand of Trog.)
04:19:31 <Patashu> stone arrow (3d12), sting (d8), blink, b.lightning (3d14), banishment, minor healing.
04:19:34 <Patashu> this is her spellset today
04:19:51 <elliptiott> I wonder if Brothers in Arms would be worth it.
04:19:55 <ion> Hand affects banishment?
04:20:10 -!- shubshub has quit (Quit: R.I.P).
04:20:25 <Patashu> it won't be a very good BIA due to low piety, but it's worth trying
04:20:37 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: (It summons a monster to help you.)
04:20:43 <ion> It costs piety, though, and you’ll want to get gifts. Perhaps berserking is enough.
04:21:04 <elliptiott> You can get piety back easy; you can't undie.
04:21:18 <Patashu> now walk towards her slowly
04:21:45 <Patashu> small abomination tanked her
04:21:51 <Patashu> how is that even possible lol
04:21:58 <elliptiott> At least you have a berserk ogre friend.
04:22:05 <Patashu> a small abomination is about as tough as erolcha
04:22:20 <Patashu> Erolcha (O) | Spd: 10 | Int: normal (items) | HD: 6 | HP: 54 | AC/EV: 3/7 | Dam: 20 | Fl: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(56) | Chunks: contam | XP: 804 | Sp: lots
04:22:20 <ion> Did Erolcha use any spells just now?
04:22:24 <Patashu> small abomination (x) | Spd: 7-15 | Int: plant | HD: 6 | HP: 14-40 | AC/EV: 0/0 | Dam: 23 | Fl: undead, evil | Res: magic(40), poison, drown, rot+++, neg+++, torm | Vul: holy++ | XP: 141.
04:22:28 <Patashu> she casted sting once and that was it
04:22:32 <Patashu> her HD is low so she doesn't cast very often
04:22:34 <Patashu> but when she casts she means business
04:22:53 <elliptiott> Your abomination took the hit, though.
04:22:54 <Patashu> you want to always act as though you have worst case erolcha, anyway
04:23:15 <ion> You might want to rest a bit so your x will heal.
04:23:20 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: If you run into anything tougher than the average monster, and you're in a corridor, swap places with your x.
04:23:26 <elliptiott> So it can -- haven't seen Psyche before.
04:23:41 <Patashu> Psyche (@) | Spd: 13 | Int: normal (items) | HD: 5 | HP: 39 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Dam: 7 | Fl: spellcaster | Res: magic(26) | Chunks: contam | XP: 371 | Sp: throw frost (3d6), cantrip, haste, throw flame (3d6), magic dart (3d4), invisibility.
04:23:45 <elliptiott> 05:23 <Henzell> psyche[1/2]: A purple unique magess that is generally unremarkable in both dungeon spawn location and ability, but can still be quite dangerous when she hastes herself and unloads a wand or chaos dagger on you. Or in the 25% of the time that her dagger is distortion.
04:23:49 <Patashu> and I think she's likely ot have a dagger of chaos
04:23:53 <elliptiott> Meh; swap places with the x and wait to see.
04:24:28 <elliptiott> "Be careful" =/= "run up and melee her", for god's sake.
04:24:37 <elliptiott> 05:24 <Henzell> chaos brand[1/9]: Imitates other brands, or can heal, polymorph, berserk, haste, invisify, petrify, paralyse, torment, cause miscasts and probably do a lot more to enemies. Added in 0.5, only gifted by Xom, Xom's vault guards, found on Pan lords, or on the uniques Crazy Yiuf (always) or Psyche (sometimes).
04:24:50 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Will that help you if you become an ant?
04:25:35 <elliptiott> BTW, Trog doesn't care about what corpses you give it, just that you give corpses.
04:25:35 <Patashu> weapons of chaos aren't particularly useful
04:25:43 <Patashu> since you can't use them on anything tough for fear of hasting/zerking them
04:25:44 <elliptiott> Patashu: Will anything else pick it up?
04:25:51 <ion> Well, you might pick it up so no-one else gets it on the level, and drop it before going to the next level.
04:25:53 <NihilistDandy> elliptiott: I know, but I figured he liked mages better
04:25:54 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Pick it up just in case.
04:26:01 <elliptiott> You can stash it somewhere if your inventory gets full.
04:26:20 <ion> Nope, it’s a light armour.
04:26:25 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Chaos fun: 05:26 <Henzell> chaos brand[4/9]: Gastronok fails to defend himself. You open Gastronok like a pillowcase!!! Gastronok suddenly stops moving! Gastronok is heavily wounded. Gastronok fails to defend himself. You open Gastronok like a pillowcase!!! You kill Gastronok! Gastronok instantly turns into a zombie! Your dagger of chaos parrots the noises around you.
04:26:47 <elliptiott> I love any game message with more than two exclamation marks.
04:27:13 <elliptiott> 05:27 <Henzell> pillowcase[1/1]: Linley Henzell doesn't know how to open these.
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04:27:35 <Patashu> yellow = contaminated (MAY make you nauseous)
04:27:45 <Patashu> green = poisonous (can't eat without rpois)
04:27:53 <Patashu> purple = mutagenic (will give you a random mutation instead of nutrition)
04:27:54 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: Oh, right, you can eat greens now.
04:28:01 <Patashu> red = bad (I don't want to know what happens if you try to eat this)
04:28:04 <Patashu> green turns white when you have rpois
04:28:15 -!- atehwa has joined.
04:29:17 <ion> When in the situation @.X where X is an enemy, don’t move toward her. Let her move toward you. You’ll get the first hit.
04:29:33 <elliptiott> NihilistDandy: That's not better than what you're wearing.
04:29:50 <ion> elliott: I’m starting to feel like i should. :-P
04:30:02 <NihilistDandy> Red 5 will forever be burned in my memory as the most annoying thing besides a gray I
04:30:06 -!- elliptiott has changed nick to elliott.
04:30:14 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Blue p is a bit more annoying.
04:30:19 <elliott> Like I said, don't bother to think with crimson imps.
04:30:25 <elliott> Just keep whacking tab until it stops existing.
04:30:30 <elliott> Unless something terrible happens.
04:30:47 <elliott> Did I mention tab can also handle the moving-efficiently-towards-an-enemy for you?
04:30:52 <Patashu> why is unarmed combat on, btw
04:31:01 <elliott> We asked you whether it was worthwhile.
04:31:13 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Turn off UC. :p
04:31:16 <ion> You headbutt the centaur!
04:31:17 <ion> You kill the centaur!
04:31:23 <ion> Seemed to work with the centaur rather nicely. :-P
04:31:25 <Patashu> ion: it does that much damage regardless of UC skill
04:31:43 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Yeah, maybe de-focus armour.
04:31:53 <elliott> Leave it on, but defocus it.
04:31:59 <elliott> (Is there a better term for "focus"?)
04:32:23 <ion> untransmogrify
04:32:48 <elliott> Do you have anything to identify?
04:32:54 <elliott> Oh, the amulet you're not wearing.
04:33:00 <elliott> And the ring, I... suppose.
04:33:05 <Patashu> use your ID on potions if you have any
04:33:47 <elliott> He could spellcast, were it not for the heavy armour.
04:33:50 <Patashu> obviously you should ditch trog and learn some spells
04:34:00 <Patashu> trog won't mind, honest. he won't send berserk stone giants after you, honest
04:34:15 <NihilistDandy> Actually, I guess 10 Int is average human intelligence
04:34:22 <elliott> MiBes are badass enough to spellcast even if their gods hate it.
04:34:26 <Patashu> crawl doesn't follow the D&D stat scales
04:34:32 <elliott> You wouldn't let any puny god stop you using magic, right?
04:34:57 <elliott> I like how Trog doesn't mind wands.
04:35:02 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Goliath beetles hit hard.
04:35:06 <elliott> They're really tedious to fight.
04:35:13 <elliott> Just whack it and stop if it hurts you.
04:35:36 <Patashu> well, when you're not diesel
04:35:44 <Patashu> goliath beetles hit really hard but only act every other turn
04:35:50 <Patashu> so you can hit them once, step back, . until they're next to you and repeat
04:35:58 <HackEgo> 839) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes
04:36:36 <elliott> Wyverns are just, like, wyverns, you know?
04:37:31 <elliott> Just pick em off one by one.
04:37:36 <elliott> You didn't do the waiting thing.
04:37:52 <Patashu> does the orc warrior have a polearm?
04:38:01 <elliott> (Press Ctrl+P to see previous messages)
04:38:13 <Patashu> you'll want that once you pry it from his cold dead hands
04:38:27 <ion> When in the situation @.X where X is an enemy, don’t move toward her. Let her move toward you. You’ll get the first hit.
04:38:41 <Patashu> take the battleaxe; wield the battleaxe
04:38:46 <Patashu> if there's any plate armour wear that too
04:38:48 <elliott> Patashu: Uncurse the current axe first.
04:38:48 <ion> uncurse your hand axe
04:38:54 <elliott> Patashu: Plate armour? Naw.
04:38:59 <elliott> +0 plate is worse than his +4 splint.
04:39:11 <ion> Not splint
04:39:40 <ion> I thought it was a +4 scale mail.
04:39:53 <elliott> OK, I guess the plate might be better.
04:39:57 <Patashu> at ****** he'll start giving you good axes
04:40:06 <elliott> Let me check your current AC/EV to compare before/after.
04:40:43 <elliott> Maybe focus armour training some more?
04:40:50 <Patashu> gdr[1/1]: Guaranteed damage reduction versus melee attacks, conferred by body armor. Formula is 14 * sqrt(base AC-2)%. This percentage applies to the maximum potential damage for an attack, not the actual damage rolled. However, GDR will prevent at most AC/2 damage.
04:41:01 <Patashu> since you have a battleaxe now
04:41:04 <Patashu> and you need to get it to mindelay
04:41:14 <Patashu> 20 axes for mindelay battleaxe
04:41:20 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Wield that battlexae.
04:41:31 <ion> =isa to make it the letter a.
04:41:41 <ion> Drop the hand axes.
04:41:52 <zzo38> Let's use foot axes instead, please.
04:41:55 <ion> You can switch between wielding a and b with '
04:42:01 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Do you have any scrolls of enchant armour or whatever?
04:42:04 <elliott> That would be nice right now.
04:42:17 <ion> I’d spare them for even better stuff.
04:42:20 <quintopia> zzo38: axe body spray is far more useful against miasma
04:42:30 <zzo38> quintopia: OK, then use that instead.
04:42:43 <Patashu> zzo38: crawl does not have foot axes, but it does have curse toes
04:42:52 <ion> and death cobs
04:43:06 <NihilistDandy> Drop the cursed ring, or identify for possible bittersweet goodness?
04:43:07 <elliott> NihilistDandy: You can find all that stuff later with Ctrl+F.
04:43:12 <elliott> Keep the ring, it's not hurting anything.
04:43:13 <Patashu> it might be useful but cursed
04:43:42 <elliott> NOT THE FEARSOME HOBGOBLIN
04:43:59 <elliott> Well, hobgoblins are always weaklings. :p
04:44:15 <Patashu> when trog starts gifting you'll get a branded battle or exec
04:44:23 <ion> Just wait until you get an executioner’s axe of venom. :-)
04:45:01 <Patashu> ring of teleport isn't completely useless
04:45:05 <Patashu> you can evoke it for teleport on demand
04:45:08 <elliott> That gives you teleportitis.
04:45:15 <ion> Only when you wear it
04:45:16 <Patashu> it gives you teleportitis AND evoke for teleport
04:45:25 <elliott> But teleportitis is still annoying as a long-term thing :)
04:45:35 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Yaks hit hard but they're boring.
04:45:43 <elliott> They're basically like ogres with horns.
04:46:04 <elliott> Zerking gives you extra HP as well as the strength.
04:46:18 <elliott> Yaks also have hugs corpses!
04:46:18 <Patashu> it multiples your current hp by 1.333... when you use it
04:46:21 <Patashu> so a late zerk is pointless
04:47:13 <elliott> I think axes chop hydrae heads.
04:47:18 <elliott> Which means you'll be left with a more-headed hydra.
04:47:21 <elliott> Which delivers more damage.
04:47:32 <elliott> I'm not sure what minotaurs should do in this situation.
04:47:35 <ion> Use the wands or/and get reinforcements.
04:47:44 <elliott> Do BIA first, since you're right next to it, perhaps.
04:47:47 <Patashu> and hope for something good
04:48:00 <Patashu> it has a club so it won't make more heads
04:48:16 <Patashu> you can probably zerk it to death now
04:48:25 <elliott> I was thinking disintegration.
04:48:33 <elliott> Disintegration is bloodier.
04:48:56 <Patashu> (those are chunks of hydra you blew across the room)
04:49:21 <elliott> A roguelike with gibs is the funniest thing.
04:50:39 <elliott> NihilistDandy: How many turns in are you?
04:51:59 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Jellies corrode weapons, armour.
04:52:00 <ion> Blast it with a wand from distance.
04:52:02 <elliott> They are annoying as shit.
04:52:06 <elliott> ion: Why did you tell him to drop all his axes?
04:52:13 <elliott> He could use a backup right now.
04:52:13 <Patashu> elliot: it would just eat all the axes
04:52:19 <ion> elliott: BIA, wands
04:52:21 <elliott> Patashu: I didn't mean throw.
04:52:30 <Patashu> this is what wands are for imo
04:53:12 <Patashu> you should have retreated north instead of south
04:53:15 <Patashu> so you could have -kept- retreating indefinitely
04:53:20 <Patashu> (jellies are slower than you)
04:53:37 <elliott> You *could* save it but considering how rare axes are this game...
04:54:03 <Patashu> trog will gift him -plenty- of axes
04:54:03 <ion> He’ll get plenty from Trog in a while.
04:54:09 <Patashu> trog won't be able to fucking stop
04:54:27 <ion> or the other way around
04:54:40 <elliott> You're kinda wasting permafood... but I don't blame you, because Crawl's hunger sucks.
04:54:56 <Patashu> unless it's a fruit, then no one cares
04:55:12 <ion> Drop the chaos dagger first.
04:55:14 <elliott> You're more than strong enough.
04:55:21 <elliott> You can probably tabspam this lot.
04:56:02 <elliott> Wights drained him and there's an ogre.
04:56:08 <ion> and he keeps tabbing :-P
04:56:21 <elliott> I was the one who told him to tab them. But these wights are vicious. :(
04:56:22 <Patashu> is he standing on the staircase right now?
04:56:32 <elliott> But will he survive an ascent?
04:56:37 <elliott> Perhaps quaff heal wounds and then berserk.
04:56:41 <elliott> (Don't do that right away.)
04:56:44 <ion> Drink heal wounds, BIA, berserk?
04:56:55 <Patashu> so you're in a better position
04:57:21 <Patashu> hit the wight that's next to you
04:57:31 <Patashu> ok, situation's diffused now
04:57:46 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Lesson to be learned here: don't necessarily trust me when I say you might be able to tabspam something :)
04:57:49 <elliott> Go up the upstairs to rest.
04:58:02 <ion> Btw, you can hit ^X to get a list of items in your field of vision.
04:58:29 <ion> And ^F.<enter> to get a list of items in the level.
04:58:42 <elliott> NihilistDandy: That's all junk.
04:59:29 <elliott> Yaks aren't such a big deal.
04:59:33 <elliott> And that's not a chokepoint, anyway.
04:59:40 <Patashu> yeah, you're being hit by three yaks at once
04:59:50 <elliott> Why do you not look at the HP meter when it flashes red a billion times?
04:59:56 <Patashu> in this game called 'crawl' monsters can attack diagonally even past walls
04:59:57 <elliott> You don't close your eyes during tabspam :P
05:00:11 <elliott> they just reach over and poke you
05:00:28 <ion> Royal Canadian Yaksman
05:00:31 <NihilistDandy> I know they can. I didn't realize getting hurt made you unable to blind fight right away
05:00:49 <Patashu> so you don't kill yourself
05:00:54 <zzo38> In the game called KING, opponent pieces can move diagonally past walls, and line of sight and thrown rocks work diagonally past walls, but your piece is blocked
05:00:56 <elliott> If those three yaks gored you, you could have died the next turn.
05:01:24 <elliott> Worker ant zombie is harmless, just kill it and rest up.
05:01:30 <elliott> X zombie is weaker than X.
05:01:46 <elliott> Those shops might be interesting.
05:02:09 <Patashu> food shops are for when you eat all the permafood in the game
05:03:01 <zzo38> Corridors are not to be eaten.
05:03:28 <elliott> It's cursed, that just means you can't take it off.
05:03:39 <elliott> It's probably worse than what you have, so switch back.
05:03:40 <Patashu> it's not even necessarily a bad axe
05:03:49 <elliott> I would have kept the curse until you saw its stats.
05:04:04 <elliott> Don't get your hopes up, though.
05:04:25 <Patashu> it's random whether you find out or not per hit
05:04:51 <elliott> Well, just keep using this one.
05:04:55 <zzo38> In which games, is it possible, if you have scroll of item destruction, to use it to destroy a cursed item which you cannot get rid of, if you drop everything else other than the item you want to destroy and the scroll?
05:05:25 <elliott> It's probably going to be shit.
05:06:00 <zzo38> What color of wands?
05:06:20 <Patashu> ok, nothing really good in there
05:06:39 <Patashu> (really good = haste, heal wounds)
05:07:19 <elliott> Gnolls aren't really scary any more.
05:07:33 <Patashu> gnoll shamans are pretty forgettable
05:07:35 <elliott> Not to say you should tabspam them. But they're not going to do all th-
05:07:38 <elliott> dragons on the other end...
05:08:02 <elliott> But I want to instill the fear of dragons.
05:08:34 <elliott> No, that would be kind of dumb and you don't have to.
05:08:44 <Patashu> nice use of the chokepoint as always
05:08:46 <elliott> Zap confusion at that gnoll.
05:08:52 <elliott> It's blocked by deep water.
05:08:57 <elliott> 06:08 <Henzell> deep water[1/2]: This most corrosive of solvents will dissolve almost anything that falls in, even artefacts and hapless adventurers. It may be possible to {scramble} free, however. Also known as blue lava.
05:09:13 <elliott> I guess it can just stay there.
05:09:19 <elliott> You could disintegrate it, I suppose.
05:09:22 <elliott> But it'd be for entertainment only.
05:10:23 <elliott> Get that last chunk then rest off a bit.
05:11:59 <elliott> That's where it probably is.
05:12:13 <elliott> Don't open those two doors, I think it's a vault.
05:12:18 <elliott> Check out Trog's gift though.
05:12:32 <elliott> Not sure where it is, mind.
05:12:35 <elliott> NihilistDandy: No, it's on the floor.
05:12:58 <Patashu> war axe is worse than battleaxe since it's one handed
05:13:04 <Patashu> but 1) you can use it with a shield 2) it might have a neat brand
05:13:20 <Patashu> it goes hand axe < war axe < broadaxe (one handed) < battleaxe < executioner's axe (two handed)
05:13:29 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
05:13:38 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Look at your goddamn HP.
05:13:46 <elliott> Why the fuck would you explore with that HP?
05:14:02 <Patashu> when you hit dudes with it
05:14:04 <Patashu> they can't cast spells anymore
05:14:07 <Patashu> otherwise the battleaxe is better
05:14:11 <elliott> Can you set autoexplore to refuse to operate if you're below 66% HP?
05:14:41 <Patashu> you can't close the door since there's an arrow on it
05:14:46 <ion> Move the battleaxe to position a and the antimagic war axe to position b and you’ll be able to switch between them with '
05:15:11 <elliott> Didn't realise your HP was like that
05:15:18 <ion> BIA might block his arrows.
05:15:36 <Patashu> meta-solution: don't do that in the first place
05:15:38 <ion> elliott: '
05:15:48 <elliott> You want that regen in a situation like this.
05:15:52 <elliott> (How did that centaur kill an ogre???)
05:16:20 <itidus20> sounds like the force is strong with nihilist
05:16:25 <Patashu> and don't be dumb around centaurs
05:16:30 <elliott> Battleaxe to a, war axe to b.
05:16:43 <ion> No, don’t rest. You should autoexplore some more.
05:17:03 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Wrong battleaxe, no?
05:17:05 <itidus20> he is still alive after all this sleeping i did
05:17:37 <elliott> Eat the centaur then check out your scrolls.
05:17:42 <elliott> You have some stuff to identify, I think.
05:18:06 <ion> He already has a plate armour.
05:18:32 <elliott> Do you really not have scrolls of identify?
05:18:32 <ion> It’ll rot away by itself.
05:20:14 <elliott> NihilistDandy: It's not terribly scary.
05:20:16 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Try Gretell.
05:20:28 <elliott> HP and damage being the most important.
05:21:15 <elliott> You need to diagonal better. :p
05:21:43 <elliott> Still no lair entrance, right?
05:21:51 <Patashu> it's not guaranteed until D:13
05:22:54 <ion> Also, use the antimagic against shamans etc.
05:23:01 <elliott> Sidenote: Wow, berserkers are much better when they have high HP.
05:24:36 <elliott> NihilistDandy: You know ogres?
05:24:48 <ion> When in the situation @.X where X is an enemy, don’t move toward her. Let her move toward you. You’ll get the first hit.
05:24:51 <elliott> Hill giants are meant to hit very hard.
05:25:32 <elliott> Probably not worth retreating; they're weaklings.
05:25:42 <elliott> It's time for ion's macro again ;)
05:26:27 <elliott> 06:26 <Gretell> Harold (@) | Spd: 10 | Int: normal (items) | HD: 9 | HP: 76 | AC/EV: 0/8 | Dam: 12 | Fl: spellcaster | Res: magic(60) | Chunks: contam | XP: 1238 | Sp: b.fire (3d17), blink.
05:27:00 <elliott> There's a corpse to sacrifice there.
05:29:01 <elliott> Running away doesn't stop bad things existing unless you're running somewhere in particular :)
05:29:25 <elliott> Patashu: You should probably watch this.
05:29:48 <ion> I was just about to say “and diffused”.
05:30:21 <elliott> 06:30 <Gretell> troll (T) | Spd: 10 | Int: normal (doors) | HD: 7 | HP: 25-53 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Dam: 20, 15, 15 | Fl: regen | Res: magic(28) | Chunks: contam | XP: 305.
05:30:27 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Hit kinda nasty, but otherwise harmless.
05:30:45 <ion> You can “reply” with :
05:30:58 <elliott> monqy: This is ND's fifth game.
05:31:04 <monqy> are you giving advice
05:31:15 <elliott> 06:31 <Sequell> 3. NihilistDandy the Grave Robber (L2 GhNe), worshipper of Ashenzari, slain by a worker ant in D:4 on 2012-05-04, with 45 points after 300 turns and 0:05:51.
05:31:17 <elliott> Oh, indeed, only the fourth.
05:31:28 <ion> monqy: It sucks.
05:31:36 <monqy> from ghne to mibe?
05:31:42 <monqy> at least, I assume that's mibe
05:32:08 <ion> Why aren’t the ##crawl bots on #esoteric⸘
05:32:13 <elliott> 06:32 <elliott> !lg nihilistdandy -2
05:32:13 <elliott> 06:32 <Sequell> 2. NihilistDandy the Sneak (L1 VpAs), slain by a gnoll (a +1,+1 spear) in D:1 on 2012-05-04, with 84 points after 200 turns and 0:02:58.
05:32:14 <elliott> 06:32 <elliott> !lg nihilistdandy -3
05:32:16 <elliott> 06:32 <Sequell> 1. NihilistDandy the Grave Robber (L2 GhNe), slain by a goblin (a +0,+0 orcish club) in D:3 (minmay three crescents) on 2012-05-04, with 77 points after 1013 turns and 0:24:08.
05:32:18 <elliott> He just picked randomly to start with. :p
05:32:30 <zzo38> ion: Unlike Haskell, they didn't put them there!
05:32:39 <elliott> (Wait, his first game lasted 24 minutes?)
05:32:42 <monqy> anyway I'm gone for a while or so
05:32:50 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Thu May 3 22:32:49 2012
05:32:51 <monqy> I'll wisdom etc once I get back
05:32:55 <elliott> monqy sure is away a lot today!!!
05:32:58 <monqy> maybe back at 23? maybe later
05:33:00 <elliott> NihilistDandy: monqy has 17 wins, you know.
05:33:01 <monqy> I'm away a lot always
05:33:27 <elliott> You get three runes from branches of the dungeon, go down to dungeon level 27,
05:33:42 <elliott> go back to dungeon level 1,
05:33:57 <elliott> Branches are themed stuff.
05:34:08 <elliott> So far you've just seen the plain dungeon.
05:35:35 <elliott> You don't need to chokepoint or run away from orcs.
05:36:19 <Patashu> more orcs implies orc warriors
05:36:22 <elliott> Patashu: Orc by induction?
05:36:39 <elliott> There are 0 orcs, and since if there's N orcs, there's N+1 orcs, there are an infinite number of orcs.
05:36:47 <elliott> NihilistDandy: It's not as powerful as it looks.
05:36:54 <elliott> I did tell you to check what unid'd scrolls were left at this point.
05:37:13 <NihilistDandy> I don't remember that, nor do I remember how to do it
05:37:29 <Patashu> it's either {, [, ], }, | or \
05:37:38 <elliott> NihilistDandy: When you go to "r", press \ in the list
05:37:43 <elliott> Then - to negate it, and you'll see unidentified items
05:38:39 <elliott> Now you see all the scrolls you don't know.
05:39:21 <elliott> Patashu: Is that a vault of some kind?
05:39:27 <elliott> Or is NihilistDandy fucked?
05:39:38 <Patashu> I wouldn't fight it right now
05:39:39 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Stats speak for themselves: 06:39 <Gretell> stone giant (C) | Spd: 10 | Int: normal (starting) | HD: 16 | HP: 69-108 | AC/EV: 12/2 | Dam: 45 | Res: magic(85), drown | Chunks: contam | XP: 2034.
05:39:40 <Patashu> close it and put an exclusion on it
05:39:49 <elliott> Patashu: I mean, is it a display case thing?
05:39:51 <Patashu> also, the stats don't tell you that stone giants hurl boulders
05:39:58 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Close is C.
05:40:06 <ion> or ctrl-direction
05:40:08 <elliott> You'll have to kill the rock worm.
05:40:18 <ion> Lure it out of the wall.
05:40:24 <Patashu> now put an exclusion on the door
05:40:24 <elliott> I haven't encountered those before.
05:40:30 <elliott> Patashu: You get to teach him how to use exclusions.
05:40:45 <ion> e’s effect will be more noticeable with X
05:40:47 <Patashu> now you won't autoexplore into it
05:41:26 <elliott> When did ND become so unstoppable?
05:42:11 <Patashu> btw, from now on at level ups raise dex
05:42:14 <elliott> That must be why you're so smart: you're a master craftsminotaur.
05:42:58 <elliott> Craftsminotaur: best word?
05:43:01 <elliott> Patashu: Some of that int is from a ring, mind.
05:43:26 <Patashu> elliott: there's still not much point raising int as a troglodyte
05:43:34 <Patashu> by the time stat loss is a problem you should have plenty of cures and carry them
05:43:38 <ion> His starting int was 4.
05:43:45 <elliott> ion: He went to university.
05:44:16 <Patashu> he got a degree in troglodology
05:44:24 <Patashu> and trog accepted him in a trainee position
05:44:35 <elliott> Ohhh, *that's* where "Trog" comes from.
05:44:44 <ion> Troglodology sucks as a palindrome.
05:44:44 <elliott> NihilistDandy: You opened the door
05:44:45 <NihilistDandy> So, in spite of the exclusion, it's driving me into the Giant room
05:45:08 <elliott> Not sure what's going on. Patashu?
05:45:20 <elliott> 06:44 <NihilistDandy> So, in spite of the exclusion, it's driving me into the Giant room
05:45:34 <Patashu> maybe place exclusions around it too, then
05:45:52 <elliott> That would result in you dying.
05:45:52 <ion> Driving you there? It didn’t open the door yet, did it?
05:45:54 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Remove the door exclusion.
05:45:57 <Patashu> you should probably leave it for later
05:46:03 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Then put an e on the door while in the X bigmap.
05:46:05 <ion> Interesting.
05:46:08 <Patashu> no sense in dying when you can live so easily
05:47:27 <ion> Do you have a scroll of magic mapping?
05:47:34 <ion> You have a limited time to reach the entrance.
05:47:42 <ion> Also, do you have food? :-P
05:47:44 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Don't do labrynths.
05:47:50 <ion> Labyrinths are great.
05:47:50 <elliott> monqy hates them and from what I've read I hate them too.
05:48:10 <elliott> Imagine a maze that changes, that you can't remember, and that you're stuck in until you reach teh end and fight a monster.
05:48:11 <ion> They have some potentially good loot.
05:48:42 <elliott> You don't have nearly enough.
05:48:47 <NihilistDandy> But I'll just be pressing o and doing whatever happens
05:48:50 <ion> Oh! You’re a minotaur!
05:48:55 <ion> Minotaurs can map the labyrinth.
05:48:58 <elliott> No autoexplore, as I understand it.
05:49:07 <elliott> Do they need magic mapping?
05:49:18 <elliott> So he can just autoexplore it?
05:49:29 <ion> Dunno if autoexplore works, but it shouldn’t forget the map.
05:49:43 <elliott> But it's immaterial if he doesn't find it, anyway.
05:49:50 <ion> I never skip labyrinths.
05:50:04 <ion> elliott: You haven’t even tried one. :-P
05:50:13 <elliott> But I read a bit about them.
05:50:17 <Patashu> autoexplore does not work in labyrinths
05:50:19 <Patashu> you have to manualexplore them
05:50:23 <Patashu> magic mapping doesn't work either
05:50:24 <elliott> Even if you're a minotaur? Bleh.
05:50:29 <Patashu> labyrinth is basically 'BOY I LOVE MAZES'
05:50:33 <Patashu> but the good thing about labyrinths is
05:50:40 <Patashu> they colour the walls by what euclidean distance they are from the exit
05:50:53 <ion> and the loot
05:50:56 <Patashu> so you can pretty quickly deduce which way yuou need to go
05:51:08 <elliott> How powerful is the minotaur at the end?
05:51:14 <elliott> And does he have enough food even if he can remember the maze?
05:51:18 <Patashu> you're diesel so no problem
05:51:19 <elliott> (And does the maze still change for a minotaur?)
05:51:22 <Patashu> (and if he is a problem you can bia)
05:51:32 <Patashu> well, how much food does he have?
05:51:35 <ion> It does change, but that’s not a real problem.
05:51:39 <elliott> He keeps eating permafood.
05:51:43 <ion> Even without mapping
05:52:00 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Do you have a scroll of magic mapping?
05:52:04 <elliott> You can't run away from something invisible.
05:52:15 <Patashu> must have been an unseen horror
05:52:18 <elliott> Is your autopickup still off?
05:52:34 <elliott> Press Ctrl+A and stop wasting time; the labyrnth gate expires.
05:52:40 <elliott> Do you have magic mapping?
05:52:58 <Patashu> in case there are friends in the black part
05:53:02 <ion> When he shoots a cloud at you, step away from it.
05:53:15 <elliott> NihilistDandy: I wrote that message before you replied.
05:53:21 <elliott> (Press _ to get rid of the annoying warning. :p)
05:53:49 <elliott> NihilistDandy: STOP IGNORING _ MESSAGES
05:53:51 <elliott> I hate people who do that.
05:54:05 <Patashu> I should send a funny message too
05:54:07 <elliott> Cyclopses are like stone golems but less scary.
05:54:18 <Patashu> helpful hint for cyclopes:
05:55:10 <elliott> NihilistDandy: that tock clicking
05:55:19 <elliott> it means the labrynth is running out
05:55:23 <ion> Don’t waste time, find the labyrinth.
05:55:31 <elliott> NihilistDandy: don't autoexplore if you want to find it
05:55:34 <elliott> use X to find the most likely places
05:55:54 <elliott> i'd suspect it's to the right but i don't really know
05:55:56 <ion> It was “long way away”, it won’t be in the immediate vicinity.
05:56:22 <elliott> He's not goingg to reach the lab at this rate.
05:56:27 <ion> Perhaps SW?
05:57:21 <ion> And offer the corpses to Trog after resting.
05:57:30 <zzo38> I started making something called WizardCard for implementing Magic: the Gathering and other similar things, this is what I have in a parser so far: http://sprunge.us/TJjZ
05:57:33 <elliott> NihilistDandy: Ctrl+F corpse
05:57:53 <elliott> that corpse isn't boring :(
05:58:30 <Patashu> when were mimics this strong
05:58:31 <elliott> NihilistDandy: this is your lesson in "mimics aren't pushovers"
05:59:00 <elliott> why are you chasing things
05:59:12 <elliott> you might be diesel but you're running out of gas!!!
05:59:33 <elliott> your unreasonable luck is depriving you of the helpful learning experiences that are YASDs
06:00:04 <elliott> ok, lair entrance must be on the next level
06:00:08 <elliott> explore out this one then go down to it
06:00:12 <Patashu> it might still be on this level
06:01:02 <elliott> NihilistDandy: just run up to it and bash them in
06:01:03 <Patashu> why are you using wand zaps on kobolds
06:01:11 <elliott> bashing kobolds to death is what you do best
06:01:24 <elliott> NihilistDandy: you'll find the lair a nice change
06:01:28 <Patashu> have you found no boots this game?
06:02:01 -!- zzo38 has left.
06:02:02 <elliott> you could have sacrificed that corpse
06:02:05 <elliott> NihilistDandy: god gifts go on the floor
06:02:31 <elliott> Patashu: he's already training axes exclusively
06:02:38 <elliott> oh it's antimagic too awesome
06:02:49 <ion> Some other brands are generally better than antimagic.
06:03:13 <elliott> that's not backing up that's just backing
06:03:16 <elliott> ahahaha how is he still alive
06:03:16 <Patashu> (you can pretend kobolds don't exist at this point)
06:03:23 <Patashu> elliott: we made him too diesel :(
06:03:31 <elliott> NihilistDandy: is that all the corpses
06:03:44 <ion> Search for what [Enter for "boots", or ? for help]? corpse
06:03:51 <ion> I read: ‘Enter for "boobs"’
06:03:54 <elliott> Patashu: he's making so many
06:04:00 <elliott> he's just too powerful to die to them
06:04:06 <elliott> he reminds me of a week ago except
06:05:27 <NihilistDandy> Wanted to save, didn't know that also made me quit
06:05:33 <elliott> NihilistDandy: It's a roguelike.
06:05:39 <elliott> You can suspend and resume.
06:06:54 <elliott> explore the whole level first perhaps
06:07:09 <Patashu> so, here's your lair notice
06:07:14 <Patashu> 1) don't do subbranches of lair before all of lair
06:07:19 <elliott> NihilistDandy: btw the lair is boring + hydrae
06:07:31 <elliott> just go to the lair water is such a pain
06:07:38 <Patashu> 2) monsters to watch out for: blink frogs (they're faster than you, appear in packs and blink), hydras (obviously), catoblepases (slower than you, when they breathe petrifying gas immediately move to an open tile)
06:07:46 <Patashu> eels shoot lightning at you
06:07:50 <Patashu> but they can't move out of the water
06:07:53 <monqy> 22:47:50 < elliott> monqy hates them and from what I've read I hate them too.
06:07:56 <monqy> labyrinths are awfu
06:07:59 <monqy> 22:47:50 < ion> Labyrinths are great.
06:08:14 <Patashu> also, the tengu are listed as gray
06:08:18 <Patashu> so you can probably just tab them
06:08:19 <elliott> 07:08 <Gretell> tengu (H) | Spd: 10 | Int: normal (items) | HD: 5 | HP: 16-39 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Dam: 10, 5, 5 | Fl: fly | Res: magic(20) | XP: 130.
06:08:24 <monqy> 22:33:34 < elliott> do the 5 Zot levels,
06:08:36 <ion> monqy: no u
06:09:01 <elliott> hungry ghosts make you more hungry
06:09:16 <elliott> 07:09 <Henzell> hungry ghost[1/1]: A ghost whose primary attack is to decrease your satiation level, by a quarter of your current satiation - it will rapidly reduce you to very hungry or near starving if its attacks connect. If you don't have ranged attacks and can't hit hard and fast, beware. Also eats corpses on the ground.
06:09:19 <Patashu> it's not like the monsters in shiren that make you incredibly hungry
06:09:31 <Patashu> I've absolutely never noticed it
06:09:41 <monqy> 22:51:14 < elliott> And does he have enough food even if he can remember the maze?
06:09:43 <Patashu> well if it was in melee range
06:09:47 <monqy> food doesn't really matter in laby
06:09:57 <monqy> laby is "free loot but you have to do this boring maze"
06:10:08 <monqy> oh and some labys have teletraps in their endings
06:10:20 <elliott> monqy: are you watching this i
06:10:22 <monqy> so you get teleported after finishing the laby
06:10:23 <elliott> have no idea how he's still alive
06:10:24 <Patashu> if they see you they shoot you
06:10:27 <Patashu> if they don't see you they move towards you
06:10:30 <monqy> dpeg is fervent about keeping them like that
06:10:32 <Patashu> if you are next to them they melee you which does almost no damage
06:10:41 <elliott> monqy: does he have any justification
06:10:45 <monqy> or at least he was, before he excused himself from devteam (that happened, right?)
06:10:46 <Patashu> well, you're bad at centaurs
06:10:53 <Patashu> have fun dying to the first centaur warrior pack you see
06:11:01 <elliott> NihilistDandy: the tactics that you don't need to bother with now
06:11:05 <elliott> will kill you in 5 turns later on
06:11:11 <elliott> no matter how many jokes you have
06:11:36 <Patashu> anyway, centaurs are easy if you
06:11:46 <Patashu> 2) engage when they're a few tiels or less away
06:12:12 <elliott> You open the centaur like a pillowcase!!!
06:12:12 <monqy> 23:04:10 < elliott> diesel
06:12:17 <monqy> wow elliott already says "diesel"?
06:12:24 <elliott> i didnt know it was a thing
06:12:44 <elliott> too gobsmacked by his still being alive to come up with other wrods
06:12:49 <elliott> you should melee that hydra with your axe :D
06:13:32 <monqy> 23:10:41 < elliott> monqy: does he have any justification
06:13:50 <monqy> but he sure got angry when minmay compared it to putting aliches on d:1
06:14:07 <Patashu> how did those arrows hit him for so much
06:14:45 <Patashu> reverse drinking game: feel like a dumbass every time you drink
06:14:47 <monqy> ok i'm finally caught up
06:14:53 <Patashu> he's dying to a centaur pack
06:15:03 <Patashu> he doesn't 'care' about centaurs because he's 'diesel'
06:15:16 <elliott> whack them and somehow survive
06:15:21 <elliott> the universe hates our advice today
06:15:38 <elliott> when you're not next to them
06:15:49 <elliott> NihilistDandy: what scrolls do you have good god
06:16:43 <Patashu> (he should have handed before resting, actually)
06:16:57 <elliott> walk behind ogre then hand
06:17:14 <ion> Get one more BIA
06:17:24 <elliott> there was no possible reason
06:17:30 <monqy> what are you dOING
06:17:43 <monqy> b was the wRONG CHOICE
06:17:44 <ion> Get one more BIA
06:18:00 <monqy> you could have gotten out of lose quicklier with nu
06:18:03 <elliott> i warned NihilistDandy about how this was going to kill him
06:18:19 <Patashu> there are a few normal centaurs left
06:18:26 <Patashu> and nd is really bad at crawl
06:18:27 <NihilistDandy> Centaur warrior is dead. Centaurs are made of babies.
06:18:29 <Patashu> so he'll find a way to die to them
06:18:29 <ion> I can’t fathom how he’s still alive.
06:18:37 <ion> with his style of playing
06:18:45 <monqy> nah lots of things are made of babies at 21hp
06:18:49 <elliott> ion: 26 str, +1,+4 antimagic executioner's axe
06:19:07 <elliott> i fucking hate you for surviving another situation against all logic
06:19:08 <monqy> d:1 trash for example is made of babies. on d:1 you don't even HAVE 21 hp
06:19:11 <quintopia> i think i need to watch this. someone link me the -cast
06:19:17 <Patashu> monqy: D:1 trash is not trash if you're, e.g., a felid
06:19:18 <elliott> quintopia: telnet crawl.develz.org 345
06:19:19 <monqy> elliott: mibe reasons
06:19:23 <Patashu> (I almost died to a hobgoblin)
06:19:24 <elliott> choose nihilistdandy's letter
06:19:34 <monqy> Patashu: d:1 trash isn't always trash on d:1
06:19:37 <monqy> Patashu: it's trash on d:13
06:19:42 <ion> elliott: But he has gone to 1/5 health a number of times and then danced in arrow rain and then survived by miraculous luck.
06:19:48 <monqy> Patashu: unless you get like an orc with disto that you somehow miss
06:20:01 <Patashu> did he even have cover he could get behind that time
06:20:13 <elliott> but he was so cavalier about it!!!
06:20:17 <Patashu> and since centaurs are faster than you
06:20:20 <Patashu> you can't go far for covers
06:20:26 <elliott> Patashu: do you really think he
06:20:26 <Patashu> (yaktaurs you see later will be same speed, otoh)
06:20:30 <elliott> thought out that reasoning in his head
06:20:42 <elliott> GL immediately before you meet another centaur warrior
06:20:47 <elliott> the lair has no centaurs, only hydrae
06:20:47 <monqy> I didn't see what happened but likely I would just have charged them
06:20:49 <NihilistDandy> Not done exploring and flying in the face of logic
06:20:58 <elliott> we've fed into this delusion too much
06:20:59 <monqy> backing up to cover can be worse than charging in many cases
06:21:18 <elliott> you didn't cut that corner
06:21:19 <monqy> now go for the kill
06:21:32 <monqy> they're too weak at your piety level
06:21:41 <elliott> NihilistDandy: you realise it burns piety right
06:21:48 <elliott> you have to sacrifice corpses for every bia
06:22:06 <elliott> Patashu: i love how he just runs around with no diagonals in realtime
06:22:14 <Patashu> diagonals. what are those.
06:22:15 <monqy> just play musu my god
06:22:25 <Patashu> watch out for that cyclops
06:22:36 <ion> I’ve been trying to get ellie to play DESu.
06:22:46 <monqy> musu was a joke, ion
06:23:07 <elliott> you want to blink or something not just
06:23:12 <monqy> how did this haPpen
06:23:22 <monqy> why did yoit's going to hit you with a rock and you will die
06:23:32 <elliott> NihilistDandy: yOU HAVE MESSAGES PRESS _
06:23:42 * ion is laughing out loud
06:23:50 <monqy> what use is checking messages if it's just squarelos greeting you
06:23:52 <elliott> ion: i've been laughing for the past
06:23:59 <monqy> ahahah did you really thingk it would be a good idea to rest there
06:24:13 <Patashu> wow, plowing through thos e blinking scrolls
06:24:20 <HackEgo> 2012-05-04.txt:05:16:20: <itidus20> sounds like the force is strong with nihilist
06:24:39 <Patashu> how can this possibly have happened
06:24:55 <ion> My cheek muscles hurt for laughing so much.
06:25:04 <elliott> i guess you can quaff curing
06:25:15 <elliott> you would die the next turn
06:25:19 <elliott> Patashu: would that help at this point
06:25:23 <elliott> or would it get a kick in first
06:25:29 <elliott> quaff curing for god's sake
06:25:37 <ion> Now go straight to <
06:25:38 <monqy> duck behind a wall or something
06:25:43 <Patashu> look at how much curing sucks
06:25:55 <Patashu> why are you goign that way
06:25:58 <monqy> do you have digging
06:26:07 <monqy> and go to the exit normally
06:26:50 <elliott> he doesn't have any curing potions left right
06:27:03 <monqy> then somehow survive
06:27:05 <monqy> so you can die to trog wrath
06:27:18 <elliott> reading fear is probably your best bet
06:27:22 <ion> It won’t work again so soon.
06:27:25 <monqy> nice fear collection
06:27:34 <monqy> that was tele, elliott. telliott
06:27:40 <elliott> Patashu: he practically is
06:27:40 <monqy> Patashu: he did bad things
06:27:46 <elliott> he's rested and run into the cyclops again about 5 times
06:27:47 <ion> Maybe fog, he says.
06:27:55 <Patashu> also, fog only helps against ranged attacks
06:28:00 <monqy> let the cyclops kill you
06:28:08 <elliott> want him to die to a rat or something
06:28:09 <monqy> you won't learn if you keep escaping death
06:28:19 <elliott> monqy: that's what i said btw
06:28:22 <monqy> i don't know if you will or won't learn if you keep escaping death but
06:28:25 <monqy> i just want you to die
06:28:30 <itidus20> this character can live on and become something glorious
06:28:31 <elliott> let us look at your inventory
06:28:39 <elliott> would enslavement work on a cyclops
06:28:43 <Patashu> it would, but MR check first
06:28:54 <monqy> it also might not hit for all the cyclops hp
06:28:56 <ion> ooh, a bread ration might work
06:28:58 <elliott> enslavement might be best because
06:29:04 <monqy> wield the chaos dagger
06:29:09 <monqy> "trust me on this"
06:29:18 <monqy> then hit the cyclops
06:29:21 <monqy> you might banish it
06:29:25 <monqy> come on it's worth a shot
06:29:26 <elliott> NihilistDandy: zap enslavement at the cyclops
06:29:33 <monqy> if you throw it the chaos won't "proc"
06:29:33 <elliott> but nothing else will either
06:29:35 <Patashu> it's probably out of rocks at this point
06:30:04 <monqy> either you'll kill it soon enough or die
06:30:05 <Patashu> it's how close it was to making the check
06:30:05 <HackEgo> 2012-05-04.txt:06:24:20: <HackEgo> 2012-05-04.txt:05:16:20: <itidus20> sounds like the force is strong with nihilist
06:30:07 <Patashu> aposfkofdijgofhjtiuhyjtdy8t
06:30:08 <ion> :-DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
06:30:26 <ion> I’m sure crawl’s source code has special dice rolls for NihilistDandy.
06:30:40 <monqy> let him fend for himself on this one
06:30:40 <Patashu> let's all stop giving him advice
06:31:02 <elliott> i think he's doing this purposely to upset us by this point
06:31:41 <elliott> im still giving advice but
06:31:41 <Patashu> until he starts being good at crawl spontaneously
06:31:46 <elliott> it'll be advice of me not clawing my skin off
06:31:59 <elliott> that he's going to win this game
06:32:07 <Patashu> but I bet he dies on vaults 8
06:32:39 <Patashu> he can do the lair whenever he wants, maaaan
06:33:52 <elliott> because it grew another head
06:34:10 <elliott> do you have heal wounds or whatever
06:34:16 <quintopia> what is the effect of a hydra growing a head?
06:34:23 <elliott> quintopia: it gets stronger
06:34:27 <ion> quintopia: It will become even more badass.
06:34:52 <elliott> NihilistDandy: try bia again
06:35:02 <elliott> does he even have any options here
06:35:02 * Sgeo plays with Bitlbee
06:35:15 <monqy> wow are you growing the hydra
06:35:15 <quintopia> what the hell is that picture squarelos sent
06:35:20 <Sgeo> elliott, who are you talking to?
06:36:29 <elliott> there's an upstairs right there
06:36:58 <Patashu> aren't staircases fucking amazing
06:37:02 <elliott> wait until a centaur warrior comes 'round the corner
06:37:30 <ion> I expected him to go back down the stairs without resting and then kill the wraith without dying.
06:37:38 <elliott> NihilistDandy: dude the lair has
06:37:42 <elliott> so many things you can eat
06:37:45 <elliott> it's crawling with minor bugs
06:39:15 <Patashu> so, let's take bets on death cause
06:39:31 <elliott> NihilistDandy: enxhant weapon
06:40:05 <elliott> and wasn't training armour
06:40:10 <Patashu> draining lowers your skills?
06:40:20 <elliott> NihilistDandy: can you please start taking our advice
06:40:27 <elliott> Patashu: i have no idea, i was just guessing
06:40:46 <NihilistDandy> I've been taking it seriously, I've just also been ignoring some of it for entertainment value
06:41:14 <elliott> i wonder if that cloakis better than yours
06:41:19 <Patashu> it was pretty funny when he did absolutely everything wrong
06:41:27 <Patashu> if he was xl27 it'd be a candidate for great near misses
06:41:51 <ion> Elven cloaks add stealthiness, but that’s irrelevant for your character.
06:41:52 <elliott> Patashu: if these aren't some of the most-watched tvs
06:42:18 <NihilistDandy> Oh, are there people outside this channel watching this shit?
06:42:21 <ion> The TV would need to have this IRC discussion merged to the game.
06:42:29 <elliott> NihilistDandy: no, but moments can be recalled for TV
06:42:39 <elliott> (it's usually used to laugh at tile players' stupid deaths)
06:42:44 <ion> quintopia: TWSS
06:43:02 <elliott> you have five viewers, so me ion quintopia monqy
06:43:09 <elliott> NihilistDandy: people who play with the graphical tilesets
06:43:34 <elliott> tiles are awful, people who use them are awful
06:44:16 <ion> I bought ten. http://www.ebay.com/itm/MACGYVER-Original-floating-home-used-Richard-Dean-Andersons-home-TV-series-/140738046722?afsrc=1
06:44:27 <Patashu> once you have axes at 26 or 27
06:44:29 <Patashu> turn on armour and fighting
06:45:03 <Patashu> lair generates a dungeon map
06:45:06 <Patashu> and then randomly adds noise
06:46:16 <ion> ^F.<enter>
06:46:20 <itidus20> "Due to the incredible response on this auction, we have contacted the Guinness Book of World Records to see if we can create a new category for "Most Views on a Single Item on eBay"."
06:47:29 <elliott> i assign Patashu to blink frog duty
06:47:56 <elliott> NihilistDandy: no point wandering around
06:48:00 <elliott> you can go downstairs, it just requires planning
06:48:47 <elliott> he's going to die, you have to arrange it to be enterataining
06:49:08 <NihilistDandy> Though knowing me, I might *not* die in the most hilarious way possible
06:49:52 <elliott> ion: if you don't advice him
06:49:55 <elliott> he'll start doing stupid stuff
06:51:22 <ion> he’ll “start doing stupid stuff”?
06:51:55 <ion> Press and hold tab
06:52:11 <NihilistDandy> Gonna go ahead and smoke a pipe while you guys confer. My strategy involves BIA and holding tab. Maybe some Hand
06:52:38 <ion> That was an awesome Freudian typo.
06:52:40 <elliott> NihilistDandy: press < and kill it
06:52:40 <Patashu> stairdancing is a great idea
06:52:42 <Patashu> now he only has to kill one thing
06:52:48 <elliott> ion: i suspect it was intentional
06:53:01 <elliott> sacrifice the other corpse
06:53:29 <Patashu> ugly things can appear in lair?
06:56:41 <Patashu> if it's alone you can tab it
06:56:58 <Patashu> your autocorrect -does- that
06:57:03 <Patashu> I thought you were just being annoying
06:57:21 <Patashu> (the 'sick' status turns off regen)
06:57:41 <elliott> monqy: are you watching this
06:57:59 <ion> Still no Trog gifts? I suppose not since you’ve been using BIA so much.
06:58:02 <elliott> things that don't even resemble chokepoints
06:58:04 <ion> I mean, new ones.
06:59:05 <elliott> ion: it's only 84/92 he's been worse
06:59:19 <ion> Against a wall, so it gets id’d if it’s a wand of digging.
07:01:03 <elliott> NihilistDandy: black mambas aren't that dangerous
07:01:09 <elliott> you have rpois; they just hit kinda hard
07:01:58 <ion> Try r on first.
07:02:05 <ion> if you have a scroll of remove curse.
07:03:28 -!- noseovertail has joined.
07:03:42 <elliott> `@ noseovertail ? esoteric
07:03:45 <ion> meh, anti-magic again
07:03:49 <HackEgo> noseovertail: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
07:04:01 <HackEgo> noseovertail: This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
07:04:02 <noseovertail> o I thought this was esoteric terrance mckenna style
07:04:06 <Patashu> now can you swap back to the exec
07:04:17 -!- noseovertail has left.
07:04:28 <elliott> I knew that guy was in the wrong place.
07:04:34 <elliott> The excitement of having found the right channel tipped my off.
07:04:43 <elliott> Nobody has trouble finding a channel about esoteric programming languages.
07:05:07 <elliott> you're not going to find a better axe
07:05:44 <Patashu> the only kind of axe you'd want at this point is speed, vampiric, or flaming (for hydras)
07:05:59 <Patashu> or maybe holy wrath but you're not getting that
07:06:58 <elliott> NihilistDandy: what were the two rings
07:07:29 <elliott> but not better than what you have
07:08:35 <Patashu> clearly you need to keep hitting the hydra that isn't hurt at all
07:08:46 <elliott> you're going to die next turn
07:09:12 <elliott> NihilistDandy: you are going to die
07:09:14 <elliott> if you do not listen to us
07:09:18 <Patashu> use hand to regen faster if you're in danger
07:09:22 <monqy> he's not going to die
07:09:34 <monqy> btw are you training armour and fighting yet
07:10:00 <Patashu> (I don't know if the 'min delay first' rule still applys for execs)
07:10:09 <monqy> having defenses and hp is important
07:10:14 <itidus20> <noseovertail> This is my channel!
07:10:14 <monqy> obsessing over mindelay is silly
07:10:18 <Patashu> turn on fighting and armour
07:10:30 <monqy> also: other benefits from Fighting
07:10:33 <monqy> like: damage etc etc
07:10:50 <elliott> i'd defocus axes and focus fighting
07:11:08 <elliott> NihilistDandy: ps you're near starving
07:11:12 <monqy> NihilistDandy: what armour are you in
07:12:53 <Patashu> > wait until not nauseous so you can finish your chunks > eat a ration instead???
07:12:54 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
07:13:21 <Patashu> it is, but you didn't have to eat a ration either
07:14:02 <elliott> why does he never notice _
07:14:42 <Patashu> going up and down the stairs takes 1-2 turns
07:15:10 <Patashu> he died deliberately though
07:15:13 <elliott> NihilistDandy: i predict you will never reach that stage again
07:15:25 <elliott> 08:15 <jeanjacques> who is nihilistdandy?
07:15:29 <elliott> i don't know how to answer this question
07:15:31 <NihilistDandy> elliott: I think you will find that Trog provides for the ones who bring him blood
07:15:50 <elliott> 08:15 <jeanjacques> and why did they stairdance a hydra several times without any plan?
07:16:37 <itidus20> couldn't you go to bed without dying?
07:16:56 <elliott> NihilistDandy: telnet termcast.develz.org
07:19:22 <elliott> 08:19 <mikee_> this isn't bad for 5 games
07:19:24 <elliott> monqy: how can he ever understand
07:23:24 <elliott> do you even know what muck is
07:26:30 <NihilistDandy> Assuming we're still talking about text games, that is
07:26:39 <elliott> yes, but probably not what you're thinking of
07:27:00 <elliott> i'm referring to mummy chaos knight
07:27:31 <elliott> Patashu: no you're doing it all wrong
07:28:06 <elliott> not even monqy and all he plays is muck
07:28:13 <monqy> ragdoll rocks muck
07:28:42 <monqy> Patashu: you are going to disto a gsc and wield it right
07:30:54 <Patashu> I don't know if I want to win or have fun yet
07:31:31 <Sgeo> elliott, esolangs doesn't use php-cgi does it?
07:31:38 <Patashu> so, ogres can't use armour, right?
07:31:42 <Patashu> so I should go spell casting hybrid at some point
07:31:44 <Sgeo> elliott, bug, etc.
07:32:01 <elliott> "nginx+php-fpm are not affected" - so no.
07:32:22 <elliott> ?-s dumping source code would be irrelevant, anyway.
07:32:22 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ ask bf do ft id msg pl rc v wn
07:32:31 <elliott> The only exposed files are common MediaWiki stuff.
07:33:50 <pikhq_> Somehow, I think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Life is a more usable programming environment than http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASIC_Programming
07:34:06 <elliott> Patashu: you're meant to dig or sth i think
07:34:37 <elliott> 08:34 <Henzell> Deleted sastopher[1/1]: Orc -> Elf -> Lair -> Swamp -> Snake -> Slime
07:35:16 <NihilistDandy> pikhq_: It's probably easier to make a game of pong, anyway
07:35:21 * Sgeo is now interested in zero-player games
07:35:45 <pikhq_> NihilistDandy: I'm not sure that BASIC Programming cart is even TC.
07:36:12 <pikhq_> While Game of Life, of course, is. Modulo infinite space, of course.
07:36:59 <Patashu> I have -five- heal wounds potions
07:37:18 <Patashu> 'You can now bend space around yourself.'
07:37:26 <kmc> that happened to me once
07:37:51 <elliott> kmc: you should play crawl so all this stuff makes sense to you
07:37:58 <olsner> don't you always bend space around yourself?
07:37:59 <kmc> drugs: like video game powerups for real life
07:38:33 <elliott> Sgeo: now ##crawl know my SECRET IDENTITY!!!
07:38:43 <NihilistDandy> 'You can now bend more space around yourself' just lacks panache.
07:40:18 <Patashu> that bend space sure helped!
07:40:27 <Patashu> ~first heal wounds quaff of the game~
07:40:40 <NihilistDandy> What, that you're a scientist who, in a tragic type-level programming accident, created the most chaotic IRC bot possessed of AI and a taste for text games ever seen?
07:41:31 <Sgeo> Does DF count as a text game?
07:41:47 <itidus20> Sgeo: well i was rambling in #gamedev the other day about non-interactive games
07:42:12 <elliott> Or rather, a glyph game or whatever.
07:42:19 <itidus20> and how flash movies on newgrounds might almost count as games
07:42:45 <itidus20> you guys are already familiar with the nature of my rants though.
07:43:05 <NihilistDandy> That flash is awful and shut up that is the end of the discussion?
07:44:06 <NihilistDandy> What do you imagine it would take to wipe PHP off the programming map?
07:45:50 <itidus20> humm.. drive it to near extinction
07:46:34 <elliott> Teapacks (also known as Tipex) (Hebrew: טיפקס) was an Israeli band that formed in 1988 in the southern Israeli city of Sderot. Originally the band was named after the correction fluid Tipp-Ex, but the name was then changed so as not to infringe on the well-known brand.
07:48:31 <pikhq_> Yeah, um, that's the first time I've seen "Tipp-Ex".
07:48:50 <Patashu> want to see how my first ogak died
07:48:55 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI_S0tswjWc
07:50:35 <Patashu> so I hit it a bunch but suck at combat
07:50:39 <Patashu> so I have to guzzle ?heal wounds like a moron
07:50:44 <elliott> NihilistDandy: this song is actually great
07:50:52 <elliott> for eurovision at the least
07:51:14 <Patashu> then I realize 'this isn't working'
07:51:17 <elliott> Patashu: your error was using mephitic cloud
07:51:18 <Patashu> so I back up and use the goblin as cover
07:51:23 <Patashu> until the goblin gets confused and stops being my meat shield
07:51:26 <Patashu> and then I just run for the stairs
07:51:49 <monqy> elliott: shachaf: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/monqy.png
07:51:59 <Patashu> I got confused and fell down the stairs
07:52:00 <elliott> monqy: you neglected to misspell your name!!!
07:52:03 <Patashu> yet it still took like 3 turns for it to stop
07:52:09 <monqy> how do i misspell "monqy"
07:52:10 <elliott> is that what you look like
07:52:25 <monqy> i also "forgot" to put monqy before the thing
07:52:34 <elliott> its ok you get a special self-portrait
07:52:36 <monqy> maybe my "forgettings" cancel each other out
07:52:46 <elliott> im going to set that as the esolang wiki's background
07:53:13 <NihilistDandy> I'm thinking ghoul next time. I like getting health from consuming corpses
07:53:21 <monqy> & yes that is what i look at
07:53:24 <monqy> especially in real life
07:54:20 <NihilistDandy> We are all pears here. Pear-reviewed esolang discussion
07:57:33 <NihilistDandy> Oh, crawl? You guys should try it! It's a roguelike, but with no rules or strategies, just cowboys
07:59:32 <kmc> console cowboys?
08:00:06 <monqy> elliott: help should i use faith or clarity
08:00:29 <monqy> faith means xom acts more but clarity means he won't confuse me (assuming that bug's fixed where xom confuses through clarity) which means less lame deaths
08:00:38 <elliott> do you want to laugh or win
08:00:52 <monqy> ostensibly less lame deaths means more laughs
08:02:52 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Fri May 4 01:02:51 2012
08:07:32 <elliott> xom would make your play more NihilistDandy
08:07:36 <elliott> but i think you need to make it less NihilistDandy instead
08:07:47 <elliott> are you watching squarelos?
08:08:36 <elliott> this is the second time i've told you that
08:08:54 <elliott> the flashing square thing is his, that's not part of the game itself
08:09:07 <elliott> also he has both autoexplore and a custom autofight script on space and bashes it a lot
08:10:08 <elliott> monqy: running from sigmund? how could you
08:10:20 <monqy> I was slowed then got confused and then sandwiched with an ogre
08:11:45 <elliott> monqy: you should convert to chei
08:13:17 <elliott> imagine all the fun of xom and all the slow of chei
08:17:01 <elliott> 09:16 <absolutego> who's on squarelos?
08:17:04 <elliott> i don't understand this question
08:17:07 <elliott> monqy: has anyone but you ever been on squraelos
08:19:23 <elliott> monqy: you might want to tell NihilistDandy why muck is a bad idea even if xom
08:19:29 <elliott> LIKE YOU DIDN'T TO ME FOR MY FIRST FEW GAMES
08:19:29 <monqy> NihilistDandy: muck is a bad idea
08:19:41 <monqy> was i even around then
08:19:54 <elliott> i chose muck because of you though
08:20:18 <elliott> NihilistDandy: it's this bad: 09:20 <Henzell> muck[1/1]: Win this (without abandoning Xom) and you can win any argument before it starts.
08:21:12 <elliott> what a great grinder strategy
08:21:19 <elliott> monqy: watch nihilistdandy
08:21:25 <elliott> meleed grinder with 22 hp and died
08:21:32 <elliott> but xom revived him and gave him a crimson imp
08:21:44 <elliott> this is awful he's going to survive again
08:22:12 <elliott> just don't play mu with it
08:22:37 <elliott> you also can't quaff potions
08:22:44 <elliott> which xom makes even worse than it already is
08:22:50 <elliott> spear is the best starting weapon
08:23:33 <elliott> then thats the kind of thing youre doing on a regular basis
08:23:51 <elliott> don't you dare fucking survive
08:25:26 <monqy> elliott: chaos spear zerked the trol
08:25:56 <elliott> monqy: has anyone won muck with xom
08:26:04 <elliott> NihilistDandy: it doesn't matter
08:26:11 <elliott> pick anything, you will die the same
08:26:21 <monqy> elliott: contrary to popular belief, i'm not the best player, and i certainly got worse after my hiatus
08:26:39 <elliott> how else could you dispense such pure wisdom
08:27:34 <elliott> monqy: has anyone else made their player into a flashing square
08:29:12 <monqy> closest would probably be xomscumming (ragdoll), who uses a flashing M
08:29:46 <elliott> i know them because they died to a butterfly
08:29:57 <monqy> ah yes, I was around for that
08:30:20 <monqy> we had a "dying to things without attacks" party
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08:30:35 <monqy> like fungi and toadstools and plants and bushes and butterflies
08:32:24 <NihilistDandy> Is there a scroll with very specific requirements for use? I've used this one near enemies and walls, but it doesn't seem to do anything
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08:34:30 <monqy> elliott: have you tried smart kobold yet
08:34:43 <monqy> i'd say to termcast it but
08:35:01 <elliott> not-completely-terrible thing for that
08:35:06 <monqy> depends on your standards
08:35:24 <monqy> i use justin.tv because it's the first thing i found a hacky shell script thingy to stream with
08:35:32 <monqy> where by hacky shell script thingy i mean
08:35:43 <NihilistDandy> elliott: If you were watching a second ago, you'd have shit yourself with rage at my survival
08:35:45 <monqy> what to pass to ffmpeg to make it do streamy
08:36:03 <elliott> monqy: the os x thing is still a problem
08:36:07 <Patashu> turns out ogak is better once you know you can pray over corpses
08:38:23 <elliott> Now download libtcod1.5.0 and install into ../lib. You can copy the
08:38:23 <elliott> version in ../../linux/lib to ../lib to get this effect.
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08:39:44 <Patashu> I just met two ogres in a row and suffered no problems whatsoever
08:39:49 <Patashu> he's just suddenly...good???
08:40:20 <elliott> failing that i'll reboot i think i have a disused linux partition on here
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08:41:59 <elliott> Warning: Clang currently miscompiles some parts of Wine. If you have gcc, you
08:41:59 <elliott> can get a more stable build with:
08:41:59 <elliott> brew install wine --use-gcc
08:43:01 <elliott> monqy: i need squarelos entertainment for all this effort
08:48:21 <monqy> i didn't notice the water mocasine
08:50:31 <elliott> is smart kobold really hard to play :(
08:50:59 <monqy> depends on what you mean hard, play
08:52:31 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Fri May 4 01:52:29 2012
08:52:57 <monqy> why couldn't you just get libtcod is there no mac libtcod or something
08:53:42 <elliott> gave up after seeing it's not in homebrew
08:54:26 <elliott> should i just compile it myself
08:56:36 <monqy> http://doryen.eptalys.net/libtcod/ oh no wheres the sourc
08:56:50 <monqy> oh theres "svn" oh it's 404
08:57:11 <monqy> https://bitbucket.org/jice/libtcod sourc
08:58:08 <elliott> there's cmake crap and stuff here
08:58:17 <monqy> ive only ever just used the binarys
08:59:45 <elliott> An application has requested X11 to change the resolution of your display. X11 will restore the display to its previous state when the requesting application requests to return to the previous state. Alternatively, you can use the ⌥⌘A key sequence to force X11 to return to the previous state.
09:00:20 <monqy> i can make my language change every turn i think
09:00:38 <monqy> i discovered: crawl.setopt
09:02:45 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:03:31 -!- elliott has joined.
09:05:05 <elliott> monqy: you should make it never choose the same one twice in a row
09:05:13 <elliott> also you didn't do the charset thing :'( (creibriadoses)
09:05:30 <elliott> monqy: wait i have a better idea
09:05:39 <elliott> monqy: make the layout of the stats display change every turn
09:05:54 <monqy> i'm going to make the hud panel change colours
09:07:04 <monqy> wow im going to make so many of my options random
09:07:06 <monqy> it's going to be great
09:07:53 <elliott> just change a random option randomly each tur
09:08:22 <elliott> monqy: change whether the messages are on top or bottom randomly every 50 turns or so
09:10:02 <elliott> ../dircontrol.h:41: error: ‘NAME_MAX’ was not declared in this scope
09:10:28 <elliott> ../firefly.cpp:65: error: ‘class TCODConsole’ has no member named ‘setBack’
09:10:52 <FireFly> That's the first time I've been highlighted because of a file name, I think
09:11:43 <elliott> monqy: im maybe going to reboot into os x; does the justintv shell script you found support streaming a single window
09:12:19 <monqy> no :( but if you make the streamy portion small and put your window in the top right of your screen it "works just fine"
09:12:34 <monqy> probably there are better shell scripts but i just haven't needed one
09:12:45 <elliott> ok i'll keep hacking this source
09:15:19 <monqy> do the binarys do they not work??
09:16:08 <elliott> http://doryen.eptalys.net/libtcod/download/
09:16:11 <elliott> do you see an os x binary here
09:16:39 <monqy> also a beta release
09:17:16 <elliott> uhhh do i have a virtual machine thing on here
09:20:17 <elliott> monqy: ugh this stuff looks like a pain
09:21:50 <monqy> where i found it was http://michaelchinen.com/2011/06/27/justin-tv-streaming-in-linux/ but searching for justin tv ffmpeg returns a lot more results which might be better
09:22:10 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10050988/haskell-removes-all-occurrences-of-a-given-value-from-within-a-list-of-lists
09:22:13 <elliott> scroll down to the last answer :D
09:22:20 <elliott> monqy: that's what i found too
09:23:25 <elliott> Thanks to your class mate I seem to have proof you are cheating on my coursework! Mr Badr expect 0% for your Haskell coursework and we may even remove the marks already attained in your previous coursework. Furthermore this username will be sent to other all the lectures who will check for plagiarism in for their coursework. You have been warned and have been told several times that you must not do this and their will be a severe pena
09:23:26 <elliott> lty! Your autumn modules will be reviewed too!
09:23:28 <elliott> Please Contact the your tutor who will give you advice on this situation.
09:26:55 <elliott> monqy: how did your configuration go
09:32:29 <monqy> wow changing status caption colour each turn makes it so they each get a different colour that applies when they're updated
09:33:40 <elliott> not quite good enough yet though
09:33:47 <monqy> right i've only just started
09:34:48 <elliott> Error: No available formula for zenity
09:36:06 <elliott> monqy: might have smart kobold running soon
09:38:42 <monqy> what else to randomis hm
09:39:22 <elliott> Unhandled exception: unimplemented function msvcp80.dll.??0?$basic_ifstream@DU?$char_traits@D@std@@@std@@QAE@PBDHH@Z called in 32-bit code (0x7b82756c).
09:40:55 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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09:42:30 <elliott> ugh this installation is disused
09:43:50 <elliott> ./kobold_bin: error while loading shared libraries: libtcod.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
09:43:53 <elliott> i forget what this error means
09:44:43 <monqy> libtcod.so is in ../lib
09:44:53 <monqy> somewhere in there
09:45:15 <monqy> did you copy it onto your loadpath
09:45:21 <elliott> LD_LIBRARY_PATH=. works :p
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09:47:58 <elliott_> i start it and little lines of blue light dance at the top of the screen
09:48:53 <monqy> thers a togl full screen option
09:49:03 <elliott_> it does not show anything on my screen apart from the tiny lines of light at the top
09:49:32 <monqy> how did that happen
09:50:26 <elliott_> does anyone know how to force sdl to be windowed
09:50:39 <monqy> you could try wineing it
09:50:40 <elliott_> monqy: what exact keystrokes do i need from it starting to get it windowed
09:50:51 <elliott_> no, it doesn't work in wine, i tried on os x
09:50:56 <elliott_> it was an error with an unimplemented function
09:51:20 <monqy> jjjj<enter>jjj<enter>
09:52:09 <elliott_> how long do you have to wait before starting it for that to work
09:52:19 <elliott_> and does the music take a while to start for you too
09:52:30 <monqy> the music happens once you start playing the game
09:52:46 <elliott_> huh, it suddenly started working
09:55:34 <monqy> http://michaelchinen.com/2011/06/27/justin-tv-streaming-in-linux/ i had to change it a bit to get it working but
09:56:41 <monqy> i changed the qual line to
09:56:45 <monqy> QUAL="ipod320" # one of the many FFMPEG preset
09:56:55 <monqy> since thats a ffmpeg preset for me and "fast" is not
09:57:02 <monqy> and i changed the ffmpeg invokation to
09:57:06 <monqy> ffmpeg -f x11grab -s "$INRES" -r "$FPS" -i :0.0 -f alsa -ac 2 -i hw:0,0 -vol 4096 -vcodec libx264 -vpre "$QUAL" -s "$OUTRES" -acodec libmp3lame -ar 11025 -ab 128k -threads 0 -f flv "rtmp://live.justin.tv/app/$STREAM_KEY flashver=FMLE/3.0\20(compatible;\20FMSc/1.0)"
09:57:14 <monqy> because of i forget why
09:57:31 <monqy> thaaaaaaaats a bit broken i think
09:57:40 <monqy> because there's one part that I should have changed
09:57:45 <monqy> and II keep forgetting to
09:58:04 <monqy> the -vol thing i think it is
09:58:24 <elliott_> im like 3 seconds away from giving up on this and never playing smart kobold
09:58:28 <monqy> since i've gotten reports of my streams have hilaribad clippy audio
09:58:48 <monqy> at least play smart kobold, even if you don't stream it
09:58:52 <elliott_> how bad will the quality be at 960x600 anyway
09:58:58 <elliott_> i doubt you'll be able to see the individual tiles
09:59:43 <monqy> i just 20 for that
10:00:00 <monqy> (i havent messed with it)
10:00:11 <monqy> its one of the ffmepg flags
10:00:32 <monqy> im fine with awful clippy audio it's like home to me
10:00:56 <elliott_> please open up http://www.justin.tv/ehird
10:01:24 <elliott_> [rtmp @ 0x138d660] Server error: Authentication Failed.
10:01:34 <monqy> did you put your stream key in the stream key thing
10:01:57 <monqy> i don't know whats wronge :(
10:02:25 <monqy> i wont be using it
10:03:19 <elliott_> http://community.justin.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=7479
10:03:24 <elliott_> Long & short of it is simple - FFMpeg is NOT intended for streaming stuff on the Internet. Never was. It's only intended for playing stuff back locally.
10:03:24 <elliott_> Try not using FFMpeg. You'll be amazed at what will happen.....
10:04:12 <elliott_> you have to cut off the flashver apparently??
10:04:32 <monqy> your thing is flashing
10:04:39 <monqy> but not quite baordcasting yet
10:04:44 <elliott_> [libx264 @ 0x1690400] broken ffmpeg default settings detected
10:04:44 <elliott_> [libx264 @ 0x1690400] use an encoding preset (e.g. -vpre medium)
10:04:45 <elliott_> [libx264 @ 0x1690400] preset usage: -vpre <speed> -vpre <profile>
10:04:45 <elliott_> [libx264 @ 0x1690400] speed presets are listed in x264 --help
10:04:45 <elliott_> [libx264 @ 0x1690400] profile is optional; x264 defaults to high
10:04:47 <monqy> it's like it tried broadcasting but didnt quite make it
10:05:29 <monqy> i refreshed and it's still black
10:05:59 <monqy> it went offline and showed a pic
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10:07:02 <elliott_> perhaps that has something to do with it
10:07:28 <monqy> is it dropping all of your frams
10:08:15 <kmc> whatever game you were playing before, i'm pretty sure ffmpeg is a worse game
10:09:28 <itidus20> i didn't realize crawl had audio
10:09:41 <monqy> it does if you make it
10:10:01 <itidus20> you guys always take things to the next level
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10:13:02 <itidus20> it can play audio files. i dunno anything about streaming thouhg
10:13:27 <elliott_> monqy: maybe it's working now??
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10:16:09 <elliott_> what about now i set the resolution to something ridiculously low
10:16:35 <elliott_> it should be a hideously distorted view of my screen
10:16:44 <elliott_> adjust the resolution and stuff
10:17:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh fucking great, I have aura over half my field of vision.
10:17:06 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
10:17:07 <elliott_> (that was a request for a screenshot)
10:18:11 <itidus20> aura as in that stuff i see sometimes when i get low blood sugar
10:18:18 <itidus20> or aura as in a video game effect :P
10:18:20 <monqy> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/notsobad.png
10:18:35 <itidus20> obviously the answer isnt important to me
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10:19:29 <elliott_> how does it look & what's the fps like
10:19:56 <monqy> fps is good enough and i can see it "good enough"
10:20:46 <monqy> no it's on the quiet side and only in my right ear phone
10:20:48 <elliott_> ill tweak the settings slightly just to make them less completely terrible
10:23:19 <elliott_> i can lower the bitrate if it doesn't
10:25:37 <elliott_> also can you toggle fullscreen ingame
10:25:53 <elliott_> because if so i'll probably do that because of
10:26:26 <monqy> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/takeii.png
10:26:29 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Fri May 4 03:26:28 2012
10:26:40 <monqy> you can togole with escap menu i think
10:27:47 <monqy> it was just like nonfullscreeen except in the upper lefthand corner
10:28:00 <monqy> or anything like that
10:28:17 <elliott_> i'll just leave it unfullscreened then
10:28:34 <elliott_> ok, brb one second and then let's get started
10:28:47 <elliott_> monqy: you're in charge of linking Phantom_Hoover to the stream
10:29:03 <monqy> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.justin.tv/ehird
10:29:40 <monqy> theres lots of that
10:29:43 <ion> Ｉ ＡＭ ＯＮ ＴＥＬＥＶＩＳＩＯＮ
10:29:55 <elliott_> lemme up the font size on this irc
10:29:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I *still* haven't said anything beyond 'oh' in the stream.
10:30:19 <elliott_> ok is everybody sitting comfortably
10:30:25 <monqy> it hasn't laagged to this side yet
10:31:14 <elliott_> monqy: you'll have to remind me of the keys as i go
10:31:39 <monqy> the keys are pretty simple
10:31:43 <ion> What’s that game?
10:33:33 <elliott_> i have no clue what the fuck is going on
10:33:47 <monqy> also you should search a lot but searching is pretty tolerable since it shows you where yous earch and searching is guaranteed to find traps and then the treaps are remove after searching
10:33:51 <monqy> the blue stuff is your hp
10:34:03 <elliott_> the stupidest hp display i've ever seen
10:34:58 <monqy> when you lose hp it turns brown and falls
10:35:12 <monqy> ellitt if you press s multiple times your search radius grows
10:35:15 <ion> There’s about 45 seconds of lag.
10:35:28 <elliott_> monqy: are you responding to all my old searches
10:36:21 <monqy> will 2fps make it unlaged
10:36:46 <ion> How crappy is your upstream bandwidth?
10:37:14 <elliott_> god it really doesn't feel like the future over here
10:37:21 <ion> You’re using H.264, right?
10:37:27 <monqy> approx. as crappy?
10:37:59 <monqy> crappier now that the fps is lower
10:39:08 <monqy> they should be in your PREFIX/share/ffmpeg directory
10:39:43 <monqy> you could find your copy of fast and make a copy of it with crappier everywher
10:40:09 <elliott_> let's see if ultrafast is better or worse
10:41:00 <Gregor> What the eff are you doing???
10:42:51 <monqy> about a while laggy
10:45:05 <elliott_> literally no way the quality can get shittier
10:47:19 <elliott_> im putting it back on and playing it deal with it
10:47:59 <elliott_> are Phantom_Hoover and ion watching
10:48:18 <ion> Kind of, but i’m about to fall assleap.
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10:50:12 <elliott_> do i really forget parts of the level as i go
10:50:31 <monqy> you "forget" them in a sense but
10:50:38 <monqy> that sense is that other parts of the level go over them
10:50:42 <monqy> it's a jefflaitism
10:51:13 <monqy> so you'll end up forgetting things when you overwrite them
10:51:24 <monqy> with knowledge of your current z-positioning
10:51:29 <ion> Remembering the level is available as DLC for just $19.99
10:51:44 <monqy> oh looks like you died
10:52:27 <elliott_> are all jeff lait games this difficult
10:52:46 <monqy> i'm blanking on most of them
10:52:58 <monqy> sword in hand is pretty difficult but not smart kobold difficult
10:53:05 <monqy> I've never really tried powder or jacob's matrix
10:53:10 <monqy> blanking on the rest
10:54:34 <elliott_> they're not going to let me chokepoint them are they
10:54:43 <monqy> they're smart kobold
10:55:51 <monqy> as you may have figured out, smart kobold is less of a game than an experience
10:57:00 <elliott_> i wasn't even killed by smart kobold that time
10:57:16 <monqy> that's because you walked through all those traps
10:57:32 <elliott_> but it's so boring to search all the time!!!!
10:57:39 <monqy> just hit keys faster
10:57:50 <monqy> also one thing you can do is use m to explore the levl
10:58:04 <monqy> its nice to see it before you alert all the kobolds
10:58:11 <monqy> and also what they do when you alert them
10:58:23 <monqy> m and then hjklyubn to look around
10:58:57 <monqy> depends on if you went over yourself
10:59:10 <monqy> i dunno if you get to keep it at all actually
10:59:42 <ion> I’ll continue to stream the video through the brain implant while sleeping. Goode nyghte.
10:59:52 <monqy> i wish i had one of those
11:01:05 <ion> Thanks, will do.
11:01:09 <elliott_> monqy: i correct that to "really really annoying and confusing"
11:02:11 <monqy> I forget if terrified baby kobolds become normal kobolds when they drop their pacifiers or not
11:03:38 <elliott_> monqy: oh, i see what you mean by z-level
11:04:21 <monqy> I've sure never won iut
11:04:24 <elliott_> will i derive any more enjoyment out of
11:06:53 <elliott_> your mouth went angular all of a sudden
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11:15:17 <elliott> monqy: wow that audio quality was good wasn't it
11:25:08 <elliott> smart kobold is an evil game
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11:36:20 <elliott> @tell monqy Yes, Smart Kobold is winnable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfS6OwitNoM
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15:02:05 <HackEgo> esolang_1234: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
15:02:36 <esolang_1234> I know :). I've read the wiki for a while now, but this is the first time on the chat.
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19:08:30 <Ngevd> Hello zzo38, fungot
19:08:32 <fungot> Ngevd: has anyone else read srfi-74 yet?) extra-www compliant. you can't rush these kind of limitations would be in the form of regions away from the swarm all the effects
19:09:46 <zzo38> I wonder how commonly the Show, Bounded, and Enum classes are used in Haskell for the purpose I am using them for in this WizardCard parser program with the BuiltinKeyword datatype.
19:10:01 <Ngevd> How are you using them
19:10:40 <zzo38> data BuiltinKeyword = KW_convert | KW_enum | KW_fail | KW_if | KW_macro | KW_section | KW_success deriving (Eq, Bounded, Enum, Show); builtins :: Map String Word32; builtins = M.fromList $ zip (drop 3 . show <$> [minBound..maxBound :: BuiltinKeyword]) [0..];
19:12:42 <Ngevd> Does <$> have a lower precedence than .?
19:12:48 <zzo38> Actually I could probably use fromDistinctAscList since the data is already sorted
19:13:24 <Ngevd> zzo38, how busy are you at the moment?
19:13:55 <zzo38> Ngevd: Not much. If you have something to tell to me then please do, regardless of how busy I am; if I cannot do so at the moment I say so.
19:14:23 <Ngevd> I was wondering if you could teach me category theory, or at leat introduce me to it
19:14:32 <zzo38> Ngevd: The precedence is correct in that code. It does work.
19:14:35 <Ngevd> Or tell me what I need to know first?
19:15:57 <zzo38> Ngevd: There are articles in Wikipedia. But in general: A category consists of a collection of objects, and a collection of morphisms, each morphism having an input and output object, such that there is an identity morphism of each object, and a composition operation which if you have a morphism (f : a -> b) and (g : b -> c) then you can compose them (g . f : a -> c).
19:16:19 <zzo38> Composition is associative and has the identity morphisms of the objects as identity leaving the other side unchanged.
19:16:41 <zzo38> So it is sort of like a monoid except that you need to indicate the object on each side.
19:17:00 <zzo38> Is this good to you so far?
19:17:47 <Ngevd> Can there be multiple morphisms with the same input/output objects?
19:18:39 <Ngevd> Okay, I think I know what's going on
19:20:03 <zzo38> A few examples: * The category of sets. Objects are sets, and morphisms are functions having elements of those sets as the inputs and outputs. * Any monoid can be made a category with a single object. * Any category has a dual where the input/output are reversed and composition is reversed. * Any directed graph makes a category, where objects are the nodes and morphisms are the ways to walk from one node to another.
19:23:21 <zzo38> And then there are functors, monads, and so on
19:24:53 <zzo38> A functor is a way converting objects and morphisms from one category to another. I will use (T x) to represent the object in the new category corresponding to (x) in the old category, and (fmap f) to represent the morphism in the new category corresponding to the morphism (f) in the old category.
19:25:16 <zzo38> A functor must satisfy the laws: fmap id = id and fmap f . fmap g = fmap (f . g) (same as in Haskell).
19:26:47 <zzo38> So that a morphism from (x) to (y) in first category becomes morphism from (T x) to (T y) in second category. It may be the same category in both cases in which case it is called endofunctor. (The Functor class in Haskell is for endofunctors on the (->) category.)
19:27:39 <Ngevd> What do you mean by the (->) category?
19:28:10 <zzo38> By the (->) category I mean the main category of Haskell; the category with types as objects and functions as morphisms. (In Haskell, categories can be identified using the type for their morphisms.)
19:31:22 <zzo38> A monad on some category is an endofunctor on that category with two additional operations eta (or return) and mu (or join), with eta :: (x -> T x) for any object x and mu :: (T (T x) -> T x) for any object x; these must also satisfy certain laws. For example the identity monad; the endofunctor converts all objects and morphisms to themself, and eta and mu are both identity morphisms (this works with any category).
19:32:49 <zzo38> There are also, morphisms which can be inverse of another; if f is inverse of g then f . g = g . f = id (possibly two different identity morphisms if they are different objects). And then, final objects, which means for each object x, there is exactly one morphism from x to the final object.
19:33:25 <zzo38> You can actually do a lot of things with category theory; you may be able to figure out some of these things by yourself, too.
19:35:57 <zzo38> In addition, the eta/mu operations of a monad are what are called "natural transformations"; Wikipedia has diagrams to explain what a natural transformation is.
19:38:03 <zzo38> I think there may be some other people on here who know a few things about category theory, too.
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19:56:49 <Ngevd> Would T (T x) be an an object in a category of categories?
19:57:13 <zzo38> Ngevd: No, T (T x) is an object in the same category as the base category, because T is an endofunctor.
20:00:36 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover, morbid curiosity
20:01:09 <Ngevd> And an endofunctor is a transformation from a category to the same category, right/
20:02:08 <Ngevd> But each object may not end up as the same object?
20:02:31 <zzo38> Ngevd: Yes, it might not.
20:03:44 <Ngevd> So, mu takes a category that has been transformed twice by the same endofunctor back one transformation?
20:04:46 <zzo38> Ngevd: Perhaps I am not explaining it so well. Ask someone understanding better, or look in Wikipedia. Also notice that these monad laws are the same as Haskell, in case you can understand better that way.
20:05:10 <Ngevd> I'm perhaps not listening very well either?
20:05:32 <zzo38> Ngevd: Yes, that too.
20:05:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
20:05:57 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover, who would you have asked?
20:06:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Ngevd, probably oerjan, if he's in; otherwise, either Google it, go into #haskell for resources or ask any number of people who aren't zzo.
20:07:09 <Ngevd> *I'm about to run out of battery, so I'll go now
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20:44:46 <Taneb> Do you know what time it is?
20:44:52 <Taneb> IT'S DWARF FORTRESS TIME
20:47:10 <Taneb> I think it crashed
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20:55:49 <Taneb> dwarf fortress time for realz?
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21:07:18 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:07:29 <Taneb> elliott: dwarf fortress time
21:26:58 <Taneb> Yay happiness and marriage and love
21:27:23 <Taneb> I'm gonna let them have this party
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21:34:06 <elliott> hmm, uxterm is broken. why is uxterm broken?
21:34:21 <Kray> so that you could ask
21:34:48 <ais523> elliott: someone whe haven't seen here before, I expect
21:34:59 <HackEgo> KRAY: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
21:35:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?welcome: not found
21:35:10 <HackEgo> Kray: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:35:19 <Kray> I find these bots highly annoying
21:35:28 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
21:35:29 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
21:35:29 <myndzi> /< >\ |\ | /| >\ >\ | /< /´\ /<
21:35:47 <HackEgo> 758) <zzo38> Yes, it is true; I don't really like PHP either.
21:35:49 <Lumpio-> Kray: Feel free to make them less annoying, I'm sure they'll accept patches for fungot
21:35:49 <fungot> Lumpio-: are you making it with was just goddamn crappy browser. :p fnord/ fnord, but that
21:35:52 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
21:36:21 <Gregor> Darn, it's case sensitive
21:36:35 <elliott> It's not really a rainbow.
21:37:02 <HackEgo> Kray: This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
21:37:06 <elliott> We need more wisdom entries to spam newbies with.
21:37:16 <HackEgo> Kray: Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
21:37:19 <HackEgo> Kray: Qiqj.uTp!1:42rz>G.isYy&.b.`..epgJ.*0"AA.$IlT.a@.jJoF.ۋL..cf.Քm!Yu!@9%4`p$6Kʋ.q)..R=tTm8N;.|\..,SORa!.v.3'.x.Ou>.Zl.'%JO6KE`ϔ..3(9}.j.3(+__֦.G]..%j]Db&.;Yb].!.|Ny2=VvcůakI.C].$h.>U.GHU?O\)[v+b?.G;#Lx C.`7cCѢ$ \ }'6E.ea|.
21:37:25 <ais523> elliott: it's possible they're here for talking about esolangs
21:37:27 <ais523> rather than messing with bots
21:37:37 <elliott> ais523: Well, then they're in the wrong place!
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21:57:41 <elliott> @dave4420 when u copy and paste from notepad++ it turns commas to semi. – Mike 9 hours ago
21:59:32 <elliott> By the way, my question appeared after reading this tutorial haskell.org/haskellwiki/IO_inside and this paper webcache.googleusercontent.com/…) – user1374768 8 hours ago
21:59:33 <elliott> An IO type defined as RealWorld->(a,RealWorld) is used here, so an action sequence is realized using the fake parameter RealWorld. But IMHO this model is impossible in pure language without outer compiler hacks. So I wonder why this implementation is used, hope that pdf has more clearly explanation. – user1374768 8 hours ago
21:59:43 <elliott> OK, http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/IO_inside should be deleted
22:00:09 <elliott> it's a whole page devoted to the State RealWorld "model"
22:00:42 <ais523> why don't you like that ""model""?
22:01:02 <elliott> ais523: because it's false, misleading, and not a model
22:01:10 <elliott> and many people believe it anyway
22:01:19 <elliott> (backed up by the fact that GHC *looks* like it uses it)
22:01:25 <ais523> there's actually a RealWorld type in GHC, isn't there?
22:01:30 <ais523> now I'm sort-of wondering what it represents
22:01:35 <elliott> it's State# RealWorld but it doesn't actually exist
22:01:48 <elliott> State# RealWorld -> (# a, State# RealWorld #)
22:01:52 <elliott> where (##) is an unboxed tuple
22:01:58 <elliott> but the thing is that that function arrow (->) is an *impure* function arrow
22:02:10 <elliott> and State# RealWorld is a 0-bit type, only used to keep the optimiser from reordering IO actions
22:02:18 <elliott> (because there's a data dependency on every previous result)
22:03:00 <ais523> I think I accept your explanation; it's sort-of State RealWorld except that it's not a Haskell State monad, but a State monad from some other language
22:03:10 <elliott> yes, but that's not even what the model is
22:03:21 <elliott> putStrLn :: String -> World -> ((), World)
22:03:33 <elliott> putStrLn s world = ((), modify_the_world_to_have_just_printed_s_on_your_screen world)
22:03:54 <ais523> it'd work for noninteractive IO
22:03:59 <ais523> but noninteractive IO is kind-of silly
22:04:00 <elliott> and, even if you accept that this works (it... doesn't), you can't do concurrency properly with it
22:04:07 <elliott> ais523: no, you extract the input from the world
22:04:23 <ais523> elliott: agreed, but I mean all-input-at-start-all-output-at-end IO
22:04:29 <Gregor> Why is the latest Freeman's Mind not available in HD yet >_<
22:04:34 <elliott> it "does" interactive IO too
22:04:38 <elliott> by "does" I mean doesn't do
22:04:39 <Gregor> I'm going nutty waiting for YouTube to fix the quality.
22:04:42 <elliott> anyway, it's not actually a model
22:04:48 <elliott> because it does not give any denotational semantics whatsoever or anything
22:06:12 <elliott> ais523: oh yeah, the biggest problem with the model
22:06:16 <elliott> is that it doesn't stop you duplicating World values
22:06:19 <elliott> or using past World values
22:06:27 <elliott> you need to enforce the linearity of Worlds (which is done in languages like Mercury)
22:06:32 <elliott> Haskell does not have linear types
22:06:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:06:37 <ais523> elliott: that's what the monad is for, isn't it?
22:06:58 <elliott> hmm, this is the point where I realise I thought you understood but you didn't
22:07:01 <ais523> btw, nonlinearity is a monad too, there was a seminar on that on Tuesday
22:07:05 <ais523> elliott: I wasn't being serious
22:07:08 <elliott> obviously if you treat IO as an abstract black box it works
22:07:12 <ais523> sorry about that, I was trying to be a bit facetious
22:07:13 <elliott> the whole point is that we're trying to /explain/ IO
22:07:21 <elliott> which means we have to give it a model, which we aren't allowed to hide things about or restrict
22:07:39 <ais523> sorry, Poe's Law is bad enough without me trying to make it worse
22:14:46 <elliott> ais523: btw, I upgraded Esolang; you probably saw
22:15:42 <ais523> nah, I rarely read it in a web browser
22:15:55 <elliott> ais523: I posted on the community portal about it
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22:28:02 <elliott> "Hatfield is a city in Pipestone County, Minnesota, United States. The population was 54 at the 2010 census.[1]"
22:31:15 <kmc> yay you're back to arguing about how to explain Haskell IO
22:31:16 <kmc> i missed this
22:31:27 <elliott> kmc: There wasn't an argument!
22:31:39 <elliott> I quoted someone mislead by it because of a terrible page on the HaskellWiki and expressed sadness that the page exists.
22:31:52 <elliott> Then ais523 asked me what was wrong with State RealWorld because he didn't know.
22:33:22 <kmc> you should fix the haskellwiki
22:34:05 <elliott> kmc: I can't delete pages on it. :(
22:34:15 <kmc> you could replace it with the empty string
22:34:21 <elliott> I think it'd get reverted.
22:34:21 <kmc> or a link to a better explanation
22:34:51 <elliott> People tend to be overprotective about not deleting content on wikis, even if it's fundamentally wrong, and proven to mislead.
22:35:38 <kmc> so this will just remain shitty, forever
22:35:45 <elliott> Like http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Monad.
22:36:20 <kmc> the haskell community is too nice to ever figure out how to teach the language properly
22:36:57 * elliott would revert that page to its pre-"improvement" state (http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/index.php?title=Monad&oldid=33391) but expects that would get reverted too.
22:39:15 <zzo38> I do think they should delete things if they are entirely wrong, but I also think that pure wiki deletion should be used.
22:39:50 <zzo38> (Meaning the text that used to be on the page becomes not hidden)
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22:46:02 <elliott> coppro: voting for Murphy :P
22:46:14 <elliott> You and your quaint separation of powers.
22:47:41 <coppro> elliott: it's a rule, isn't it?
22:48:33 <elliott> We don't need rules like that.
22:48:48 * elliott thinks democracy has failed Agora.
22:48:57 <elliott> Bring on the Promotor-Assessors and voting golems.
22:50:28 <zzo38> Maybe I should add in the (>>=||) (>>=|||) (>>=|\/) (>>=\/) for if the function on right takes many parameters and the monad on left is the inside being a tuple with that many parts (I have to use "made up" roman numerals since you cannot use digits here)
22:50:49 <coppro> elliott: I suggest that the Bakor keep the Roll of golems
22:51:51 <tswett> I will assume that nothing important happened while I was away.
22:53:51 <kmc> probably Haskell needs some knowledgable person to not only provide a coherent explanation of everything, but directly attack the shitty explanations
22:54:23 <zzo38> kmc: The problem is that you would need different explanations for different purposes too
22:54:46 -!- nortti_ has joined.
22:56:26 <nortti_> it just feels so good to be here using a real client (even though that client is a piece of shit)
22:57:30 <nortti_> will try to get this SASL bullshit working on irssi
22:57:39 <zzo38> nortti_: Then use a different client if that one is no good
22:58:24 <nortti_> zzo38: this is the only one that supoorts sasl and doesn't want to spy on me on android
23:00:44 <zzo38> If you know how, you could modify any existing one with open-source to support SASL, I would guess
23:01:18 <nortti_> zzo38: I don't have android dev tools
23:01:55 <nortti_> and I don't think it would run on my computer
23:03:20 <nortti_> (This phone has better performace than my computer)
23:06:13 -!- jfischoff_ has joined.
23:08:00 <nortti_> And this client is at least better that webchat.freenode
23:08:59 -!- jfischoff has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:09:00 -!- jfischoff_ has changed nick to jfischoff.
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23:49:14 <nortti> I am writing a lisp interpreter on lambdastack
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23:54:34 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZG1rbg/stackoverflow.com-q-10029651.html
23:56:36 -!- augur has joined.
23:57:11 <elliott> Heh, Raymond Chen commented on it.
23:57:21 <elliott> (Click the "comments" links on the sides.)
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23:59:41 <jfischoff> I'm surprised there is a cloud suggestion but no GPU suggestion.
00:00:44 <elliott> Don't be silly. GPUs just don't have the kind of elastic scaling you need to enumerate every GUID.
00:02:02 <jfischoff> facepalm, how could I forget about elastic scaling?
00:02:53 <elliott> If you have one of the 50 fastest computers in the world, then you can make the subatomic strings themselves elastic.
00:03:00 <zzo38> I have added a new version of "prelude-generalize" Haskell package with (>>=||), (>>=|||), (>>=|\/), (>>=\/), azero, aplus, unnull.
00:03:04 <elliott> So you could have it done by next Tuesday.
00:03:38 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:04:16 <jfischoff> but only if that is the way google does it
00:04:34 <elliott> Oblig. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yH_j8-VVLo
00:04:43 <zzo38> There is no Checkout compiler as far as I know.
00:07:56 <jfischoff> elliot: nice. Just learned that I'm a munctional programmer.
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00:15:59 <elliott> You finish putting on the +2 pair of gloves of the Republic {rPois Str+3
00:16:08 <elliott> Do these offset the loss of my unarmed combat bonus, being a ghoul?
00:16:15 <elliott> (I don't need the rPois, obviously.)
00:18:06 <elliott> Patashu: Better question: What exactly is the bonus?
00:18:21 <elliott> Oh, jeanjacques just told me :P
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00:19:22 <elliott> OK, time to choose myself a god.
00:19:32 <elliott> I guess it's Makhleb or Ashenzari again (comedy option: chei).
00:20:19 <elliott> Patashu: You were advocating sticking with Ashey, right?
00:21:59 <Patashu> if you're going to go ash, bind yourself fully
00:22:03 <Patashu> if you don't feel like it go makhleb
00:22:48 <elliott> I'll go with Makhleb. I feel like I'll like Ashenzari more when I'm older and wiser and less violent. :p
00:22:59 <elliott> But, you know, HP on killing!
00:24:45 <elliott> Patashu: Did you say I could hear a buckler too?
00:25:06 <Patashu> always wear a buckler unless you're using a ranged weapon or 1.5-2 handed weapon
00:26:01 <elliott> I guess I'll switch back and train armour.
00:28:00 <variable> elliott: http://dpaste.com/hold/743008/ poly.hs is unmodifed the entire time
00:28:26 <elliott> variable: hahaha, that "file" output is amazing
00:29:16 <zzo38> You need to set the extension to .lhs to use literate Haskell
00:29:42 <variable> zzo38: poly.lhc: file not recognized: File format not recognized
00:29:55 <zzo38> variable: That is because you put .lhc by mistake
00:30:18 <variable> [9656 eitan@radar ~/poly ]%./poly
00:30:18 <variable> I'm a Literate Haskell program.
00:30:55 <elliott> pfft, literate haskell is cheating ;)
00:31:42 <elliott> Patashu: _Level annotation: magistern's ghost, experienced HOEE
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00:34:31 <Patashu> I just had to climb through the most awful arena level anyway
00:34:42 <elliott> ion: Should I be really scared of that ghost? :(
00:34:47 <Patashu> it was full of: orc priests. orc wizards. a hydra. a two-headed ogre. a kobold with a wand of fire.
00:34:56 -!- augur has joined.
00:35:05 <ion> elliott: Dunno, i wasn’t paying much attention.
00:35:08 <Patashu> and I tried using corrupt but it was shit
00:35:11 <elliott> why is it "experienced" then
00:35:35 <elliott> ion: ahaaha look at my game
00:35:39 <elliott> these butterflies are confusing
00:35:43 <elliott> the ghost's hiding amongst them
00:37:06 <elliott> wonder if i can get to that upstairs
00:37:47 <ion> Two orc priests? Nice.
00:37:48 <elliott> fear worked on everyone but the things i care about
00:38:21 <elliott> this is one of those situations where i should have read teleportation a year ago
00:39:42 <zzo38> You have to go to the leftstairs and then destroy the human priest of the International Church of Evil and then activate the blue clock and as soon as it reaches 42, you have to immediately teleport into hyperspace.
00:40:10 <zzo38> If you don't do it *exactly* then you will lose.
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00:41:08 <zzo38> And even if you do it exactly correctly, then you still have a 50% chance to lose anyways.
00:41:18 <zzo38> And a 25% chance to draw and 25% chance to win.
00:41:34 <ion> elliott: What would NihilistDandy do?
00:41:58 <ion> No, he wouldn’t, but he’d still make it. :-P
00:42:00 <zzo38> And never begin a sentence with "and".
00:42:18 <ion> just like that
00:42:24 <elliott> turned to rubber for the past 10 turns
00:43:59 <elliott> are deep elf soldiers scary
00:44:07 <elliott> 01:44 <Gretell> deep elf soldier (e) | Spd: 10 | Int: high (items) | HD: 3 | HP: 9-18 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Dam: 6 | Fl: spellcaster | Res: magic(24) | Chunks: contam | XP: 33 | Sp: magic dart (3d4), slow, haste, blink / throw flame (3d5), confuse, invisibility, magic dart (3d4) / throw frost (3d5), cantrip, haste, throw flame (3d5), magic dart (3d4), invisibility.
00:44:21 <zzo38> elliott: Do they have a weapon? If so, then you should escape.
00:46:04 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/jfmoY.jpg
00:48:25 <elliott> What is it with this vault?
00:49:09 -!- monqy has joined.
00:50:09 <elliott> monqy: did you know java is interpreted and not optimised
00:50:56 <monqy> oh no are you getting into a dumb argument in ##crawl
00:52:10 <monqy> i dont even want to know how this happned
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00:52:35 <elliott> im exiting the dumb argument in ##crawl
00:52:42 <elliott> me ---> the argument's exit
00:52:49 <elliott> is kyrris dumb or something
00:52:57 <elliott> im just asking because 01:51 <minqmay> this is your first time talking to kyrris isn't it
00:54:15 <zzo38> If all of the deep elf soldiers have the same spells and equipment then it makes it easy they should mix it up a bit to confuse you too
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00:56:10 <elliott> monqy: how did your conflagration go
00:56:47 <monqy> what conflagration now
00:59:12 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:01:42 -!- Guest26299 has joined.
01:02:15 <monqy> maybe you should start being elliott
01:03:02 <Guest26299> 02:02 Error(437): elliott Nick/channel is temporarily unavailable
01:06:28 <Gregor> Guest26299: /nickserv release <nick> <pass>
01:06:48 <Guest26299> i dont think i can do it Gregor can you release it for me
01:07:18 <Gregor> So Amazon incorrectly gave me the wrong MP3. What I have labeled "Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky - 77 - The Snow Maiden (Snegurochka): Aria.mp3" is in fact some awesome upbeat jazz with vibraphone solos.
01:07:20 <Gregor> Guest26299: Sure, just tell me your password.
01:07:22 <kmc> release me
01:07:32 <kmc> "what is it you want us to do?" "die..."
01:07:45 <Guest26299> Gregor: its a little known fact that chykovskee actually loved jazz
01:07:46 <kmc> unz unz unz unz unz unz unz unz
01:07:56 <Gregor> kmc: Arrrgh I remember that line but can't place it ... Star Trek or Stargate ...
01:08:07 <kmc> Gregor: Independence Day, as sampled by Infected Mushroom
01:08:29 <Guest26299> im upset that Gregor isnt taking issue with my spelling of chykofskee
01:10:05 <Gregor> What the hell do I care about transliterations of Cyrillic names?
01:10:30 <Guest26299> trying to misspell it terribly and phonetically
01:10:38 <Gregor> Damn it, it's even TAGGED as Tchaikovsky, I can't figure out who it is :'(
01:10:38 <Guest26299> its just that even the pronunciation is too exotic and complicated to admit that :(
01:10:52 <Guest26299> Gregor: feed it into musicbrainz picard
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01:12:52 <Gregor> Guest26299: Wow, that's pulling in a lot of deps :(
01:13:05 <Guest26299> Gregor: There are other clients, I think. Dunno if any of them do the fingerprinting stuff.
01:13:17 <Guest26299> There are various phone apps and the like that try and do the same thing.
01:13:23 <Gregor> libqt4-opengl // So glad this program needs OpenGL ... uhh, maybe Debian's 'picard' package isn't what I want X-D
01:13:28 <Guest26299> But I think Picard will have a good chance of getting it, it's just a matter of how complete their database is.
01:13:39 <Guest26299> So it's probably just pulling in all the Qt stuff.
01:13:41 <Gregor> I have programs that use Qt.
01:13:51 <Guest26299> It'll be some indirect dependency, probably :P
01:14:23 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/Pyotr%20Ilyich%20Tchaikovsky%20-%2077%20-%20The%20Snow%20Maiden%20%28Snegurochka%29:%20Aria.mp3 <-- listen to Tchaikovsky's lovely aria for vibraphone.
01:15:39 <Guest26299> You could also contact Amazon about it to ask.
01:16:14 <Guest26299> Gregor: help, i'm bobbing uncontrollably listening to this
01:17:10 <Guest26299> Gregor: wow i SERIOUSLY underestimated tchaikovsky
01:19:00 <Gregor> Picard is giving me a bullshit response, it thinks it's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvDkIR-OyYI
01:19:20 <Guest26299> Gregor: Are you sure you used the fingerprinting stuff?
01:19:35 <Guest26299> It can identify tracks by tags and length, or fingerprints or something and obviously only the latter are meaningful here.
01:19:41 <Guest26299> Check the manual, it's vaguely helpful :P
01:19:42 <Gregor> I have no idea how to do that, this UI sucks.
01:20:35 <Gregor> Aha, I see, I had clicked 'scan' and it did nothing, so I tried something out.
01:20:39 <Gregor> It did nothing because it couldn't match it :(
01:20:53 <Guest26299> What was the name of that other thing that does it... Shazam or something.
01:24:19 <zzo38> Can they include formats other than MP3 or does it have only MP3 format?
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01:24:39 <Guest26299> Gregor: You could post it on /r/TOMT or something.
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01:28:36 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine is not Turing-complete since all programs will halt; it has no loops. It does have conditions, but they cannot be nested. However, write some quiz file. Perhaps, try to write a quiz file which will attempt to guess which of people on this channel you are, without asking the questions which are direct enough to answer it. (Assuming that everyone in this channel, and nobody else, can try to answer, and answer truthfully)
01:29:33 <zzo38> (The answers which users select are not logged anywhere; they are only passed in the selector string in order to perform calculations on them and send the result to the client. If you still don't like it, you can download and run the program locally.)
01:30:09 -!- Guest26299 has changed nick to elliott.
01:30:10 <zzo38> (However, there currently is no local mode. Write one if you want; I may also do so later on)
01:30:11 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
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01:31:40 <elliott> turns out jessica is powerless even at xl 3 and 19 hp
01:31:59 <monqy> jessica is usually a wimp
01:33:00 <monqy> oh no i misread cheibriados as creibriados help
01:34:04 <elliott> (this coincidence only makes sense if you're watching my game)
01:35:34 <elliott> does chei really boost all your stats by 15 levels or am i misunderstanding it
01:36:10 <monqy> stats are str/int/dex
01:36:24 <elliott> that's still a bit overly high isn't it
01:36:25 <monqy> if you want skill boosts go ashe
01:36:52 <elliott> i went with makhleb last game because
01:37:01 <elliott> im too young and violent for ashey
01:37:56 <monqy> you could worship xom! !
01:38:23 <elliott> it's true! it's theoretically possible for me to worship xom this gam
01:38:32 <elliott> monqy: does the ** starting piety apply to xom's interest level thing
01:39:06 <monqy> you have to know a spelle
01:39:17 <elliott> no sif muna is totally stuck up
01:39:20 <elliott> im going to blow up that altar later remind me
01:40:54 <elliott> You are wearing: f - a ring of see invisible (left claw)
01:41:41 <elliott> i should add "hits you from afar" to that list
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01:44:10 <monqy> i wasn't looking what happened
01:45:39 <monqy> maybe blink over the ant?
01:45:56 <monqy> it may or may not protect you
01:45:59 <elliott> i think i'd probably die dipping around the corner
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01:50:57 <monqy> most body slot armoures go to +2
01:51:31 <monqy> the only exception I can think of is bardings, which are internally represented as boots
01:51:42 <monqy> oh righ tand somme body slot armours give more base ac than others
01:51:49 <monqy> like caps give +0 whereas helmets give +1
01:52:03 <elliott> wait caps dont give me any ac???
01:52:06 <monqy> but a +0 cap is better than nothing because it gives a bit of acid protection
01:52:47 <monqy> you'll probably be replacing both
01:52:56 <elliott> im going to stick with the cap for the rest of the game
01:52:57 <monqy> robe for heaver armoures and cap for hemlet
01:53:08 <monqy> what if you find a cool artefact cap!!
01:53:27 <monqy> dyrovepreva is a cap i think
01:53:35 <monqy> and hat of the alchemist is megagood cap
01:54:08 <elliott> what does it mean for thegame
01:54:16 <monqy> i think it means you can't wear it with a beak?
01:55:41 <elliott> oh no the helmet gives me one more ac
01:55:48 <elliott> does hte helmet give me acid resistance
01:57:22 <monqy> all you need is the slot covered with something for the acid protection
01:57:28 <monqy> so yeah the helmet works for head slot
01:57:51 <elliott> keep the cap around for sentimental reasons
02:08:25 <shachaf> monqy: good self self portrait
02:09:19 <shachaf> I need to start keeping track of all these self-portraits.
02:10:35 <elliott> wow i can afford that cursed ring of hunger
02:11:06 <shachaf> monqy: when is the self portraite of kmc coming out
02:11:19 <monqy> whenever i figure out what to draw on it
02:11:45 <monqy> i.e. whenever i see the true nature of kmc's self
02:12:11 <monqy> maybe i'll go on a discovery adventure journey tonight to discover it through the power of adventure and journey
02:12:28 <kmc> go into your cave and find your power animal
02:13:02 <elliott> monqy: kmc doesn't have a self
02:13:06 <shachaf> kmc: have you ever had a self portrait drawn of you
02:14:19 <shachaf> monqy: is your true self a pear
02:14:59 <shachaf> monqy: is your false self a moth
02:15:31 <shachaf> monqy: are you going to answer no to this question
02:15:56 <elliott> monqy help it's this vault
02:16:19 <elliott> wait i have no ranged attacks whatsoever
02:19:25 <monqy> oh no i was looking away
02:19:39 <monqy> why is it always when im not watching that you get in trouble
02:19:57 <elliott> those four doors open up to a scary vault right
02:20:13 <monqy> if you trrey opening them you'll rpobably gnolldie a gnolldeath
02:22:36 <monqy> feare might work unless there's still that buge
02:22:46 <monqy> might be your best bet anyway
02:23:10 <monqy> that's probably yiufe vaulte
02:29:30 <monqy> run up the staires maybe
02:35:38 <elliott> goliath beetle + crimson imp party
02:36:35 <elliott> more like giant arghball ha ha ha
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02:37:49 <elliott> i should train invocations right
02:38:58 <monqy> you'll want decent invo for greater servant
02:39:23 <monqy> i forget the sucese calculatioens
02:39:29 <monqy> where by suces i mean
02:39:55 <elliott> maybe ill turn off combat and turn on armour and invocations i dont know theres so much ~conflicting advice~ about skills i see on ##crawl
02:40:09 <elliott> i don't really see how anyone manages training only one skill at a time long-term
02:40:19 <monqy> ##crawl is bad at agreeing with itself
02:40:27 <monqy> i train multiple skills at a time
02:40:30 <elliott> yeah i take what i read there with
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02:40:55 <elliott> why does autopickup turn off on invis
02:40:58 <monqy> the training one skill at a time craze is from when skills were in descrete levels rather than continuouse
02:40:59 <ion> I trust everything said on this channel.
02:41:02 <elliott> to avoid picking up when fighting?
02:41:16 <elliott> (i won't turn it off though)
02:41:43 <elliott> too bad i'm too shitty at minor destruction to take them down from a disatnce
02:41:59 <ion> Someone really should make a status line item out of autopickup being off. Perhaps i’ll get around to making that patch some day.
02:42:17 <elliott> put it in the same place and colour as (Hit _) so nobody notices it
02:42:27 <coppro> ion: nethack or crawl?
02:43:51 <elliott> i mostly just let them explode on me
02:44:09 <monqy> hit them with ranged like darts or minor destruction to explod them from afar
02:44:18 <monqy> they don't matter so much as undead since then they dont confuse you
02:44:26 <elliott> hey, at least the ogre died
02:44:56 <ion> Yeah, just throw something at them or blast them with something.
02:45:35 <elliott> might switch to splint soon
02:46:19 <elliott> 4 scrolls of sky frog flesh
02:47:08 <elliott> i don't think i'm going to be able to worship chei this game
02:47:20 <monqy> spider form for clinging
02:47:24 <monqy> jokes your'e a ghoule
02:48:09 <ion> I once found a scroll named MNOSOI SHIT.
02:48:30 <elliott> hmm i should enchant something
02:48:30 <kmc> shachaf: did you know that MIT's Kerberos realm uses single DES?
02:48:35 <monqy> there's a huge learndb entry with things like that
02:48:50 <ion> Yeah, fuc da sac or something like that.
02:49:03 <ion> Awfully hilarious, you mean.
02:49:29 <ion> Err. http://crawl.akrasiac.org/learndb.html seems blank.
02:50:37 <elliott> i really need to learn how to chokepoint
02:51:35 <elliott> monqy: kikubaaqudgha sounds hardcore -- oh i suddenly realise that that's kiku
02:51:44 <monqy> kikubaaqudgha is necromancy god
02:52:00 <monqy> necromancy magic, that is
02:52:08 <monqy> contrast with yredelemnul, undead friends god
02:52:40 <elliott> lesser servant you're not helping!!
02:52:54 <monqy> you have to hold the troll in place
02:53:00 <monqy> dancing around it and getting yourself hit won't help
02:54:01 <monqy> i was looking away
02:54:04 <monqy> and suddenly you dead
02:54:19 <monqy> ribbit is dangerous
02:55:00 <monqy> don;t trust the mlist, seriously
02:59:09 <elliott> i just thought my "memories of scare" were from when i was
03:04:57 <zzo38> Somewhat in here in before, I was asking something about some partial ordering (relating to multimanas in Icosahedral RPG). But we have, X is less than or equal to X, and if X less than or equal to Y and also Y less than or equal to Z, then X is also less than or equal to Z. But it looks like these two rules make a category; the first one is identity morphisms and the second one is composition of morphisms.
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04:04:05 <zzo38> Can we make up the Crawl variant with the following options which can be turn on/off before the game starts: * Do not restrict race/class combination * Disable artifacts * Disallow revisiting dungeon levels unless you are at a dead end * Disable religion * All items are created cursed * All NPCs explode when killed * Disable permanent food * Hit points refilled upon entering new dungeon level
04:07:05 <zzo38> * Hit points do not recover over time * Power points refilled upon entering new dungeon level * Power points do not recover over time * PC's experience level never increases * Skill levels never increase * Permanent map * Use "Twonky"-style display * Adjust NPC stats * No diagonal moves * All NPCs have a tracking device to track the PC * All NPCs know PC's weaknesses
04:09:17 <zzo38> * Creatures cannot be identified * Player is penalized for standing still
04:11:33 <ion> zzo38: Feel free to.
04:11:48 <zzo38> * PC cannot step in the same tile more than once
04:12:44 <zzo38> ion: Do you like this? Do you hate this?
04:13:50 <ion> Mostly hate. :-)
04:13:58 <ion> But that doesn’t mean someone else wouldn’t love it.
04:14:51 <elliott> zzo38: * bad * bad * bad * terrible * awful * terrible * probably good * terrible * good * what are power points
04:17:52 <zzo38> Twonky is an old computer game, played on a grid of tiles, each of which can be floor, teleporter, or wall; two of them are marked special as the goal square and a square which causes the game to end in a draw if touched. There is also the Twonky which moves toward you each turn and you lose if its distance to you is less than 2.
04:18:37 <zzo38> You cannot see any of the tiles; but you are told the distance from your location to Twonky and distance from your location to the goal square. You can also shoot. You are told if you land on a teleporter, or bump into a wall or the edge of the grid.
04:18:48 <zzo38> (The distances are Euclidean distances)
04:19:52 <zzo38> elliott: Maybe this game doesn't call them power points; maybe they are called magic points or spell points; or does it use Vancian casting?
04:20:10 <elliott> Have you even played Crawl?
04:20:12 <zzo38> elliott: Then that is what I mean.
04:20:32 <zzo38> And, yes, I have played Crawl a while ago but I forget a lot of it. I have played it both on the computer and on the Nintendo DS.
04:20:53 <elliott> Hmm, Crawl is available for the DS?
04:21:14 <zzo38> I seem to recall it is, but I may be wrong.
04:22:46 <zzo38> Actually it does use ASCII text for most (but not all) things (I don't know why).
04:22:55 <ion> I’d *love* tiles with the tiles being simply renditions of the same Unicode characters with the same colors the terminal version uses. The benefit would be that the tiles are square and the minimap can work.
04:23:42 <ion> s/tiles/a tiles version/
04:23:48 <elliott> I don't even hate tiles, inherently; there's no reason a roguelike should be constrained to the terminal grid as it is. I just have every tileset I've seen.
04:24:14 <elliott> They disregard the most important part of a roguelike: the highly stylised, minimalistic, symbolic line-art aesthetic that derives from the technological restrictions.
04:24:27 <ion> The same characters but perfectly square would be just perfect for me.
04:24:30 <elliott> The Geoduck tilesets are probably the closest to getting it right... but unfortunately they're pretty hideous.
04:24:43 <zzo38> ion: Yes they are square; I remember that.
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04:25:39 <elliott> 05:23 <elliott> I don't even hate tiles, inherently; there's no reason a roguelike should be constrained to the terminal grid as it is. I just have every tileset I've seen.
04:25:39 <elliott> 05:24 <elliott> They disregard the most important part of a roguelike: the highly stylised, minimalistic, symbolic line-art aesthetic that derives from the technological restrictions.
04:25:39 <elliott> 05:24 <ion> The same characters but perfectly square would be just perfect for me.
04:25:41 <elliott> 05:24 <elliott> The Geoduck tilesets are probably the closest to getting it right... but unfortunately they're pretty hideous.
04:25:43 <elliott> 05:24 <elliott> ion: I think you'd find just making them square might leave a bit too much horizontal space to be aesthetically pleasing.
04:26:46 <ion> Just scaling the glyphs without respecting the original aspect ratio works.
04:27:00 <ion> (I’ve tried that with PuTTY which supports that.)
04:27:31 <elliott> That would do horrible things to the glyphs.
04:27:59 <elliott> ion: By the way, what's your definition of "roguelike"?
04:28:18 <ion> roguelike, a. 1. like Rogue
04:28:35 <elliott> Now do it again without using the word "Rogue">
04:29:44 <ion> Turn-based, random world, …
04:30:14 <elliott> The "..." is the cheating part :
04:30:54 <elliott> Mine is something like "A turn-based role-playing game that takes place in a mostly-randomised grid world."
04:31:02 <elliott> That doesn't quite capture the you-vs-everything-else aspect, though.
04:31:35 <monqy> you vs everything else is common but not really something that makes a roguelike a roguelike imo
04:32:31 <elliott> monqy: Yeah, fair enough. I was just thinking that e.g. giving Pokemon a randomised world and making it turn-based wouldn't make it a roguelike.
04:32:52 <elliott> (Or maybe it would? I don't think so, but maybe changing the graphics to glyphs would be enough to sway my opinion. :p)
04:33:07 <ion> I don’t find Crawl’s style where almost everyone else is 0) your enemy and 1) an ally with everyone else the best way.
04:33:28 <monqy> graphics fall in the "common for roguelikes but not something that makes a roguelike a roguelike" bin for me
04:33:50 <ion> If you meet a random ogre and a random hydra, why couldn’t the hydra be an enemy of the ogre as well? Take care of the hydra together and then perhaps the ogre notices you have some nice stuff it would like to have.
04:33:57 <elliott> monqy: Right, that was facetious, but it's something that affects my gut reaction.
04:34:05 <monqy> ion: crawl devs don't like that sort of stuff
04:34:11 <elliott> If you show me a grid of tiles with a @ moving about in it in turn-based fashion I'll think "roguelike".
04:34:27 <ion> Or perhaps it finds you a bit too formidable and prefers to try not to provoke you.
04:34:38 <elliott> ion: Yeah, I don't really like the "MONSTER TEAM" thing.
04:34:54 <elliott> An ogre wouldn't exactly queue up behind a bat and a rat to wait to have a go at you.
04:35:11 <elliott> OTOH, I can imagine that making monsters purely self-serving would just result in a dungeon full of blood and corpses.
04:35:32 <monqy> i forget why the crawl devs don't like monsters fighting each other, or maybe it was just the outspoken opionionful devs that didn't like it
04:35:40 <monqy> i.e. dpeg didn't like it, and he really didn't like it
04:36:57 <monqy> opinions was his job (he didn't touch the code) and he sure had a lot of it
04:37:03 <monqy> some of his opinions were good
04:37:10 <elliott> wait how are you a "dev" if you don't touch the code
04:37:18 <elliott> isn't the job title "loudmouth"
04:38:21 <monqy> i forget exactly how many of his opinions were good/bad but
04:41:48 <elliott> monqy: you should name my roguelike
04:41:52 <elliott> something nice and misspelled
04:41:58 <elliott> can you make a word that's a misspelling of itself
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04:44:03 <elliott> monqy: i had no idea there were so many angband variants
04:44:23 <elliott> 05:38 <monqy> i forget exactly how many of his opinions were good/bad but
04:44:23 <elliott> 05:41 <elliott> monqy: you should name my roguelike
04:44:23 <elliott> 05:41 <elliott> something nice and misspelled
04:44:25 <elliott> 05:41 <elliott> can you make a word that's a misspelling of itself
04:44:47 <elliott> "Animeband is an animé-themed variant of Angband, with references to dozens of different animé series and video games. Its primary language is Japanese, although versions are later ported into English." "For example, races include DBZ Saiyajins and Androids, Moogles from the Final Fantasy series, and 'Hententmons' (a combination of hentai tentacle beasts and Pokémon)." thank you, RogueBasin
04:46:16 <elliott> ugh i had a nice implementation of this function but I've forgotten it
04:47:22 <elliott> monqy: what's a nice implementation of (Monad f) => (a -> f b) -> f (Maybe a) -> f (Maybe b)
04:50:41 <ion> @type \f xs -> maybe (return Nothing) (fmap Just . f) =<< xs
04:50:41 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) a1. (Monad m, Functor m) => (a1 -> m a) -> m (Maybe a1) -> m (Maybe a)
04:50:44 <elliott> istr the solution involves >>= and liftM
04:52:30 <elliott> (Monad f) => f (Maybe (f a)) -> f (Maybe a)
04:52:36 <elliott> which I think is what lead me to the nice solution last time
04:54:15 <zzo38> It would be the case that the high score table would not be kept if any of the options I have specified are adjusted; unless you created a seperate high score table for the specific set of options.
04:54:33 <elliott> monqy: did you see zzo38's suggestions for crawl
04:54:56 <monqy> i liked a lot of them but probably they wouldn't work in crawl
04:55:01 <monqy> because crawl is crawl
04:55:38 <zzo38> I do remember when playing the game, that I have wanted some race/class combinations which are not available; there were also some races and some classes which I have wanted to use which did not existing in that game.
04:55:56 <monqy> most race/class combinations are selectable in crawl
04:56:11 <elliott> the only ones you can't select are impossible in-game right
04:56:11 <monqy> the only ones that aren't are things like demigod priests since demigods can't worship gods
04:56:20 <monqy> a few redundant ones are unselectable too i think
04:56:29 <monqy> and things that depend on items you can't use
04:56:37 <monqy> mostly this applies to felids
04:56:48 <elliott> you forgot to say ha ha ha felids
04:57:09 <zzo38> I would want to be able to select redundant ones and ones which have unusable features anyways; they should simply be highlighted in a different color to warn you
04:58:12 <elliott> crawl already highlights terrbible combinations
04:58:53 <zzo38> (>>= maybe (return Nothing) (fmap Just))
04:59:06 <elliott> zzo38: Yeah, that's what I came up with too.
04:59:10 <elliott> I swear I had something nicer. :(
05:00:34 <zzo38> What did you call it? Is "joinJust" OK?
05:01:39 <elliott> I didn't call it anything, I inlined it at its only use site. :p
05:01:59 <monqy> and you lost it :'(
05:02:56 <elliott> Okay, how about f (Maybe (a -> b)) -> f b -> f (Maybe a)?
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05:03:10 <elliott> Nice! But for Applicative f only this time :(
05:03:38 <zzo38> (I was answering your original question; not this new one.)
05:05:18 <elliott> I take it that's Traversable's sequence?
05:07:55 <ion> @type \f xs -> sequence . fmap f =<< xs
05:07:56 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a a1. (Monad m) => (a1 -> m a) -> m [a1] -> m [a]
05:08:08 <elliott> sequence . fmap f, aka mapM f
05:08:38 <ion> Ah, indeed.
05:10:06 <elliott> monqy: should i play corwael
05:10:10 <elliott> that's my roguelike's name
05:10:17 <elliott> excellent, i'm misspellign it already
05:10:28 <elliott> you have to kill all the scots
05:10:37 <zzo38> I think you may also be misspelling "misspelling" too, isn't it?
05:11:16 <elliott> im also misorthographising "it's" and "I'm"
05:12:32 <elliott> god i really hate the earlygame
05:12:52 <monqy> all the better to autuomat it
05:12:56 <elliott> im going to make a mini-roguelike where you start out fully equipped and statted
05:13:17 <elliott> so it's just fune endgame dying action all the way
05:13:17 <monqy> doomrl has something kind of like that
05:13:43 <zzo38> O, and then you have to decrease your stats as you advance an experience level.........
05:13:54 <monqy> angel of confidence and angel of overconfidence challenge games, at which you start out 1/3 and 2/3 through the game already, respectively, with some gear to match
05:13:55 <elliott> zzo38: a reverse roguelike? :D
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05:14:12 <monqy> and i think some odd angbands have modes where you start at the bottom and have to get out
05:14:18 <elliott> monqy: mine would be more like
05:14:32 <monqy> 22:13:43 < zzo38> O, and then you have to decrease your stats as you advance an experience level.........
05:14:34 <elliott> tries to present you with a game of nethack that has already been played up to the planes or whatever
05:14:38 <monqy> ive heard of a roguelike like that
05:14:42 <zzo38> elliott: Well, you could reverse experience levels in some game possibly.
05:14:44 <monqy> (wrt what zzo said)
05:14:47 <monqy> i forget what it is called
05:14:51 <monqy> and I don't thinkl i've ever played it
05:15:03 <elliott> people who say wrt are good people
05:15:32 <zzo38> John while James had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher
05:15:38 <elliott> crawl monsters that need to be removed: bats, phantoms, this list was longer but i forgot the other items
05:15:56 <monqy> there are a lot more
05:16:04 <elliott> *that need to be removed that i have encountered
05:16:11 <zzo38> elliott: OK, then add one option to my list which allows you to remove bats and phantoms and the other ones
05:16:12 <monqy> mcrawl gets rid of all the annoying water and lava monsters by way of not having water or lava
05:16:30 <elliott> 06:16 <Henzell> amulet of rage[1/1]: Allows you to go {berserk}, and may extend the duration on kills. Chance of success depends on evocations.
05:16:34 <elliott> this amulet will not be good for me
05:16:49 <monqy> imps are no good either
05:16:51 <elliott> _e - a cursed -2 ring of protection (left claw)
05:17:05 <elliott> monqy: yeah imps should go but they're less annoying than phantoms
05:17:24 <monqy> you haven't seen them but
05:17:43 <zzo38> I would also make up a game that, if any wearable item is cursed, the curse only disallows you to remove it and not any other effect. Non-wearable items which are cursed differ in different ways.
05:17:45 <elliott> actually worms just need nerfing
05:17:50 <ion> elliott: I’m bored of watching your ghoul games. Play a DESu. :-(
05:17:53 <monqy> worsms and golaioth betls nee dtogo
05:17:54 <elliott> to have a less powerful attack
05:18:06 <monqy> elliott: play a desu so ion stops complainign about it
05:18:10 <elliott> ion: i might play a strong melee race at some point
05:18:26 <elliott> i don't want to play fancy stuff until i've won something because otherwise i'll just keep hopping forever
05:18:43 <monqy> maybe you'll hate desu
05:18:47 <monqy> good chance you'll hate desu
05:18:59 <elliott> monqy: ill hate desu because of the acronym it doesnt matter what the play itself is like
05:19:14 <monqy> then play musu (ha ha ha)
05:20:14 <zzo38> I would also have no autocursing items (although it might be the case that some items are more likely to be created cursed)
05:20:47 <elliott> monqy: is there a way to force rest/travel even if an X is nearby
05:21:01 <monqy> elliott: luau scripts
05:21:26 <monqy> musu is one of the "infamously boring characters"
05:22:32 <elliott> 06:22 <Henzell> musu[1/1]: Most exciting race/class combination ever! Wait 300k turns, go to next Dlvl, repeat. If you have a boring beetle zombie pet, you should name it "MuSu".
05:24:15 <monqy> musu isn't actually like that but
05:24:30 <elliott> what's it like i don't know what
05:24:44 <elliott> why does mu make it more boringer
05:24:59 <monqy> you get free channeling
05:25:06 <elliott> so you just sit there spamming summons until things die?
05:25:17 <monqy> that's the gist of it
05:26:14 <elliott> i think this is the first time i've died to a hobgoblin
05:26:45 <monqy> personally i find summonerrs lsess boring than conjurers because there's less keywork in it
05:27:09 <monqy> about the same level of thought (not much) but easier to numb the pain
05:27:30 <zzo38> I would do it too, you can select any kind of creature in game as your character and also too many classes to list, so instead we have to make the race/class selection you type in what you want, and you can use tab-completion; if you type ? then it selects one at random, and if you push ? followed by tab then it expands to a random selection in place, which you can remove if you wish.
05:27:33 <monqy> pretty much everyone who isn't me prefers conj. over summ
05:27:37 <elliott> its not unreasonable to think that gnolls hit way too hard for things that can hit you from afar and come in packs really early on right
05:27:54 <monqy> you're probalby mishandling them a little bit
05:28:05 <elliott> my gnoll strategy is just "run" because even with a chokepoint they just wear down my hp :(
05:28:08 <monqy> they haven't been so bad for my musus
05:28:16 <monqy> and aren't mucks like
05:28:29 <elliott> your script is probably smarter than me
05:28:36 <monqy> my script is rly dumb
05:28:57 <monqy> it just comes naturally ??
05:29:30 <ion> elliott: Play a spriggan enchanter.
05:31:38 <ion> elliott: They move fast, are stealthy, don’t need to eat much and are pretty okay at enchanting.
05:31:42 <elliott> resign myself to dying to gnolle
05:32:10 <elliott> ion: yeah but that's like wildly different from everything else i've played (apart from my unserious spas diving) so
05:32:28 <monqy> branching out is good
05:32:29 <ion> You’ll get to confuse guys and stab them.
05:32:37 <elliott> monqy: not when i'm terrible at everything!
05:32:39 <zzo38> Do you know anything about what I have posted far above relating to partial orderings and categories?
05:32:47 <elliott> im trying to become less bad at things before branching out
05:33:54 <elliott> is the implication that i'm not good at anything
05:34:08 <elliott> *not going to get less bad at
05:34:41 <ion> Perhaps you’ll get better at things *by* branching out. :-)
05:34:55 <ion> You’ll have more fun.
05:35:13 <elliott> what's a nice melee race with lots of hp and str except not mibe or mifi or whatever because they're TOO MAINSTREAM
05:35:21 <monqy> play whatever ion suggests so he'll shut up
05:35:27 <ion> SpEn! DECj! DESu! TrBe!
05:35:36 <elliott> monqy: ion will never shut up
05:35:37 <monqy> ok don't play what ion says
05:35:56 <elliott> i think trbe counts as too mainstream
05:36:00 <monqy> what does str have to do with anything
05:36:00 <ion> I just want you to try a goot magic guy.
05:36:15 <elliott> literally an abbreviation for strength
05:36:31 <elliott> ion: crawl's magic seems boring
05:36:38 <ion> It’s pretty fun.
05:36:40 <monqy> it depends on what magic you're doing
05:36:44 <monqy> some people like it
05:36:47 <monqy> some people like parts of it
05:36:51 <monqy> some people don't like any of it
05:36:59 <monqy> you'll have to try each part of it for yourself
05:37:18 <elliott> or i could just unfairly disregard it
05:37:18 <ion> It’s so fun to cast ice/fire clouds with a powerful DE.
05:37:38 <monqy> clouding everything is so ugh
05:37:40 <ion> elliott: You also have to try Sprint!
05:37:46 <elliott> i did i died after 3 turns
05:37:47 <monqy> doing the same spell routines to everything is uuuugh
05:37:57 <elliott> i would play a summoner except
05:38:00 <elliott> do you get to summon straight away
05:38:17 <elliott> how different are the first few dlvls playwise to like
05:38:19 <elliott> everything i've been doing
05:39:19 <elliott> monqy: that's greyed out!!!
05:39:27 <monqy> you want a noongrey?
05:39:35 <elliott> you're trolling me so i end up with problem and then i will mad :(
05:39:46 <elliott> wait ion is here he'll take that non-ironically
05:39:52 <zzo38> Are you allowed to select one that are greyed out?
05:39:54 <elliott> monqy: felid is non-grey maybe i should go with felid!!!
05:40:01 <elliott> "crawl devs don't like this"
05:40:07 <ion> DE has the most MP at start IIRC.
05:40:09 <elliott> monqy: ogres don't sound like they'd be very good at magic!!!
05:40:16 <monqy> elliott: ogres have +2 spellcasting
05:40:21 <zzo38> I realized that what I wrote above about partial ordering as a category is correct; I look on Wikipedia and yes it is in there the same thing I was thinking of.
05:40:28 <monqy> elliott: JOKES' THEY HAVE -3 IN EVERY SCHOOL
05:40:29 <elliott> why don't ogres have lots of health
05:40:36 <monqy> ogres have lots of health jeeze
05:40:50 <elliott> monqy: your joke is mean :'(
05:40:51 <monqy> you didn't even try?
05:40:59 <monqy> you should at leastt
05:41:07 <elliott> not before trying something less hideously terrible!!!
05:41:14 <monqy> it's not hideously terrible!
05:41:23 <monqy> wanna play ddsu? have fun
05:41:51 <elliott> ill play musu if yhou don't save me in the next 10 seconds
05:41:59 <monqy> anyway pick whatever i don't care. just don't play vpsu
05:42:12 <ion> Why not just pick DE? They’re good at magic.
05:42:26 <elliott> monqy: guess what i just focussed
05:42:39 <zzo38> (if it is permitted!)
05:42:40 <monqy> elliott: vp has the most annoying hunger mechanic in the game
05:42:48 <elliott> is it the potion of blood thing
05:43:11 <monqy> you have to manage your blood level for resists/regeneration/etc
05:43:16 <elliott> anyway i cant play DESu because itll result in terrible people making terrible jokes based on the acronym sory
05:43:25 <monqy> elliott: i won't make joke
05:43:36 <elliott> its not you im worried about!!!
05:43:37 <ion> That’s not nearly as funny as HOMo.
05:43:54 <zzo38> elliott: Then modify the acronym and recompile
05:43:59 <monqy> hey you know what'[s funny
05:44:09 <elliott> ha ha ha ha haah ah ah ah ha haha its hilarious because its a word
05:44:23 <quintopia> thats the only one i can figure out
05:45:51 <elliott> monqy: ok listen ill do ogsu if you come clean about how terrible it is
05:45:51 <monqy> you can play ogsu now
05:46:02 <ion> elliott: m
05:46:04 <monqy> it's not terrible!
05:46:11 <elliott> 06:40 <monqy> elliott: JOKES' THEY HAVE -3 IN EVERY SCHOOL
05:46:21 <zzo38> Category theory does a lot of things!!
05:46:32 <ion> Spellcasting is probably more important and it’s positive for ogres.
05:47:06 <monqy> turn off dodge and stealth
05:47:20 <monqy> and use manual mode of course
05:47:22 <ion> Switch to manual and perhaps use Spellcasting * and Summonings +
05:47:34 <monqy> elliott: z key to spell
05:47:34 <elliott> ion: summonings are -3 apt though :'(
05:47:46 <monqy> elliott: it matters less than you'd think
05:47:50 <elliott> uhhh should i still melee small things
05:47:53 <zzo38> Kan extensions also does a lot of things!!
05:47:54 <ion> z? lists spells, M memorizes new ones.
05:47:58 <ion> You shouldn’t melee.
05:48:07 <monqy> but use a giant spiked club!!!!
05:48:13 <ion> Just spammals now.
05:48:21 <monqy> for just startinfg off use spoammals
05:48:22 <elliott> i don't have giant spiked club
05:48:23 <monqy> you can train a weapon later
05:49:23 <ion> Rest to get Spammals!
05:49:33 <ion> Rest to get more MP
05:49:44 <ion> before 5’ing to kobolds
05:49:44 <monqy> elliott: go musu if you don't wnat hungre
05:49:50 <ion> Err. I’m too tired for IRC.
05:49:53 <ion> before o’ing to kobolds
05:50:12 <elliott> kobolds have an ok hunger mechanism
05:51:04 <monqy> a wall of summons is kind of like hp
05:51:28 <elliott> what should i do when i summon a bat urgh
05:51:31 <elliott> if i recast i run out of mp
05:52:45 <kmc> unix signals are an unholy clusterfuck
05:52:46 <elliott> i have no idea how to play this properly
05:52:50 <ion> Just spammals with all your MP.
05:53:03 <ion> And switch places with them so they get to surround the guy.
05:53:20 <ion> kmc: No kidding
05:53:33 <kmc> really the whole idea of POSIX is absurd at face value
05:53:49 <zzo38> kmc: Why do you hate UNIX signals?
05:53:50 <kmc> that one could take a bunch of different operating systems that sort of have some shared history
05:53:58 <kmc> and make them act almost like the same operating system
05:54:24 <kmc> the remarkable thing about a dancing bear is not how well it dances, but that it dances at all
05:54:48 <monqy> elliott: now is when you learn
05:54:57 <ion> elliott: You can tell your spammals to attack someone in their FoV with t
05:55:07 <ion> elliott: M to learn new spells.
05:55:18 <ion> Ok, you can’t yet.
05:55:35 <elliott> kmc: hi, welcome to ##crawl!
05:55:42 <kmc> zzo38: where to start
05:55:49 <kmc> let's start with every table and list in http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/signal.7.html
05:56:30 <kmc> also the sheer number of signal-related syscalls
05:56:37 <kmc> linux has a syscall now named rt_tgsigqueueinfo
05:59:03 <elliott> monqy: is su always like this
06:00:04 <monqy> just added a bunch more options to squarelos' randomiser
06:00:17 <monqy> including: messages_at_top, view_lock_x, view_lock_y
06:00:38 <monqy> also the turn display will switch between the two different types of turns
06:00:42 <monqy> so the turncount will go up and down
06:00:52 <elliott> i hope messages_at_top changes less frequently
06:00:56 <monqy> and it toggles -ctele display too
06:01:27 * elliott spams space on the CDO game list
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06:02:05 <elliott> im upset that not all the colours of the stat things change though
06:02:17 <elliott> that turn count is just perfect
06:02:41 <monqy> this time sitting up straight
06:02:52 <monqy> hunched over the back of my seat
06:03:20 <elliott> monqy: another thing you could randomise is the number of lines devoted to messages
06:03:33 <elliott> which would be especially great when it's on top
06:03:41 <elliott> because everything else would bob up and down
06:04:12 <elliott> does the language change on every turn? it seems to stay at Skermeesher for a while
06:04:25 <zzo38> A concrete category is a category that is equipped with a faithful functor to the category of sets. But, what is a category that is equipped with a fully faithful functor to the free category of a subset of its quiver (meaning, a collection of some of its morphisms)?
06:05:18 <elliott> monqy: i sent that around orc priest inner flam
06:05:49 <elliott> monqy: what are the two types of turn anyway
06:06:26 <monqy> one is how many moves you've made and the other is how long you've taken in game time
06:06:51 <ion> I prefer the latter.
06:07:00 <ion> It immediately shows how slow your hits are etc.
06:07:11 <elliott> one is a turn count and the other is a clock
06:08:24 <elliott> monqy: rip (i didn't see what happened)
06:08:32 <monqy> i feel like im getting progresisvely worse
06:08:49 <monqy> sometimes i consider playing non-muck but that's just less cool no matter how you look at it
06:09:20 <monqy> also why aren't my messages going to the top occasionally :(
06:10:10 <elliott> i think its fairly obvious that continually playing with a nigh-unusable interface and mashing with a nigh-useless script will make you worse :P
06:10:12 <ion> Is the smoke trail behind you caused by Xom?
06:11:51 <monqy> what should i play
06:12:02 <monqy> maybe something else too
06:12:36 <monqy> maybe my script doesn't work so good with feck
06:12:52 <elliott> does it work so good with anything
06:13:20 <elliott> ion: what should monqy play
06:14:19 <ion> Deep Undulate Norwegian
06:14:36 <monqy> i'll just play trck "oh well"
06:14:53 <elliott> how to make a combo funnier: append "of chei"
06:15:20 <monqy> i dont think my script knows how to not starv
06:15:40 <monqy> maybe it forgot how to eat on nonghouls
06:15:54 <monqy> nah that's definitely eating
06:16:05 <ion> Is it butchering?
06:17:49 <elliott> monqy: you should play deep dwarf skald
06:18:40 <elliott> monqy: merfolk fire elemental has to be good, right???
06:21:43 <elliott> monqy: do fire elementals get a god
06:21:50 <elliott> i know nothing about either
06:21:56 <Patashu> fire elementalists worship vehumet
06:24:01 <elliott> how come only health is changing colours now
06:25:17 <Patashu> animate skeleton looks like a fun spell
06:26:24 <zzo38> A dioid that remains a dioid if addition and multiplication are swapped and zero and one are swapped.
06:27:50 <zzo38> Is that something like topology?
06:29:41 <zzo38> Do any mathematics known here? Maybe oerjan? Maybe someone else?
06:29:44 <Patashu> the skeletons from animate skeletons never time out?
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06:33:41 <ion> Lava snakes
06:33:52 <monqy> script got me deep into some serious lava snake trouble, i underestimated them on my escape trip
06:34:11 <ion> Lava snakes are equally nasty IRL.
06:35:03 <elliott> monqy: have you considered you haven't been getting progressively worst, just your script has
06:35:46 <monqy> but i require my script or crawl is unplayable
06:36:03 <Patashu> what does monqy's script do
06:36:05 <elliott> not true, you can also dive!!! or maybe you considered that unplayable but you didn't seem to
06:36:10 <elliott> Patashu: explore and fight and eat
06:36:19 <elliott> he has it bound to spacebar
06:36:31 <elliott> oh it also traverses stairs!
06:37:19 <Patashu> it clears D:1 for you etc?
06:37:25 <elliott> it clears everything for you
06:37:32 <elliott> except it's dumb and gives up a lot
06:37:35 <elliott> and monqy has to get it out of its mess
06:37:42 <elliott> so it's more like 1/3 a bot
06:38:57 <Patashu> Danswan's ghost (powerful Tengu Conjurer) comes into view
06:39:01 <Patashu> hmm I wonder what spells it knows
06:39:34 <Patashu> it died before casting anything
06:40:44 <elliott> monqy: are you going to play one of the combos i suggested ;(
06:41:01 <elliott> deep dwarf skald or merfolk fire elemental (whichever makes less sense)
06:41:11 <monqy> i don't wnat either of those
06:41:49 <elliott> that's why i suggested them
06:42:11 <monqy> guess i'll do ddsk
06:42:44 <elliott> i don't even know what skalds do
06:43:42 <elliott> monqy: i like how deep dwarves just die slowly
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06:44:14 <elliott> abbreviated one of your inventory items as "hy"
06:47:03 <elliott> 07:45 <Robot2600> hunger should be seriously nerfed 07:46 <ophanim> Robot2600: why? no one starves to death
06:47:15 <elliott> (i say it in here so nobody can disagree with me)
06:47:29 <elliott> (that's the kind of abuse you can achieve when you ADMINISTRATE A POPULAR WIKI!!!)
06:49:52 <elliott> monqy: you converted to chei?
06:50:13 <elliott> does anyone have good abbreviations for "consequent" and "antecedent"
06:51:00 <monqy> conseque, antecede
06:51:02 <elliott> oh hmm i was misusing consequent and antecedent
06:51:11 <elliott> what would you call p, a and b in if p then a else b
06:51:19 <elliott> p is the consequent i guess
06:51:45 <elliott> a might be the consequent but then i'm not sure what b would be and this is kind of silly
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07:00:30 <elliott> monqy: what soids fk okkr p ekt
07:02:34 <elliott> monqy: shoudl i play sprint
07:03:20 <monqy> it has different problems from normal crawl
07:04:26 <elliott> sprint opinions being a thing
07:05:08 <monqy> they're all different!
07:05:24 <monqy> they're all different!
07:06:15 <elliott> how do you not have opinions on them come on you hate something about almost every given aspect of crawl
07:06:40 <monqy> i have opinions on each sprint and they're incomparable
07:06:56 <elliott> yes but do any of them suck
07:07:04 <monqy> depends on what you mean by suck
07:07:06 <ion> Hmm. I think i’ve won one of the sprints, but i don’t remember which one.
07:07:14 <monqy> also apparently the crawl light server has a version with a bug where corpse sacrifices don't delete the corpses so you can gian infinite piety from them
07:07:34 <elliott> monqy: you're awful just recommend me a sprint!!!
07:07:34 <monqy> (bugged implementation of sacrifices sacrificing everything in los)
07:07:39 <ion> Crawl light server?
07:07:53 <monqy> elliott: all of them, in rotation
07:07:57 <elliott> http://store.barackobama.com/joe-biden-can-holder.html thanks biden
07:08:02 <ion> Huh, i hadn’t encountered Crawl light before.
07:08:03 <elliott> monqy: which should i start with
07:08:24 <monqy> elliott: cheers champ
07:08:33 <elliott> ill be a felid abyssal knight
07:09:59 <monqy> im watchieng crawl lgiht game
07:10:28 <monqy> telnet light.bitprayer.com
07:10:35 <monqy> be sure to mess with your TERM if it's bad
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07:10:53 <elliott> what's your password i want to send messages
07:11:20 <zzo38> Do you need a password to send messages?
07:11:31 <elliott> i need monqy's specifically
07:12:11 <monqy> name squarelos, password robin
07:12:20 <monqy> theres only one active game and it's idle :(
07:12:30 <monqy> (i just registerd there)
07:12:32 <elliott> it wasn't idle 58 seconds ago!
07:12:39 <monqy> (the ond server deid or something??)
07:12:48 <monqy> (so my config is just defaults)
07:13:01 <monqy> maybe you can try crawl light !
07:13:02 <elliott> can i play squarelos (i mean on cod (im not actually serious about this because i couldnt hope to live up to the artform you have taken crawl playing to))
07:13:04 <monqy> oh hey it's unidle
07:13:15 <monqy> yeah anyone can play squarelos
07:13:18 <monqy> just don't mess with the config
07:13:30 <elliott> i already said it wasn't serious!!!
07:13:48 <elliott> so far crawl light looks like crawl
07:13:54 <ion> Does this seriously not tell which Sprint i played? http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/ion/morgue-ion-20110721-190348.txt
07:14:11 <monqy> ion: violet keep of menkaure
07:14:45 <ion> Does it say that somewhere?
07:14:46 <monqy> a few things look different from normal crawl
07:14:50 <monqy> like it has a glow bar
07:15:09 <monqy> the experience system is a bit different
07:15:37 <elliott> monqy: i cant decide if my roguelike should use 256colours or not
07:15:46 <monqy> whatever you want!
07:15:55 <qfr> How about 2^32 colours
07:16:10 <elliott> monqy: what does yours do!!!
07:16:13 <elliott> qfr: terminals can't do that!!!
07:16:21 <qfr> Make an OpenGL client
07:16:26 <monqy> elliott: undecided
07:16:27 <ion> So write a new terminal which will be a requirement for your new roguelike.
07:16:31 <qfr> Also, are your roguelikes multiplayer?
07:16:33 <qfr> Do they have PvP?
07:16:39 <elliott> multiplayer roguelikes don't
07:18:05 <ion> What about Crawl light warrants a fork?
07:18:27 <elliott> im having trouble thinking of much a roguelike would require beyond sdl
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07:18:43 <elliott> unless you can reuse an existing opengl engine or whatever it
07:18:59 <qfr> SDL is icky
07:19:15 <ion> Meh, better use a 2D API that’s an abstraction over OpenGL. You’ll get much better 2D acceleration.
07:19:26 <elliott> ion: it's turn-based... but yeah im not defending sdl it's just
07:19:35 <qfr> ion that remark made little sense
07:19:47 <monqy> it made perfect sense
07:19:50 <ion> for stuff like vector graphics, scaling etc.
07:19:51 <elliott> ion: messing with a pixel buffer is a hell of a lot less pain than writing opengl crap
07:19:57 <zzo38> I suggest use a different frontend program as backend program, so that you can use it on a frontend for standard terminal, or a different one with mouse and icons, etc
07:19:59 <elliott> especially if you use the programmable pipeline like you're meant to
07:20:22 <elliott> are there any reasonably complete 2d apis that use opengl under the hood?
07:20:31 <elliott> like that aren't at the level of "game framework"
07:20:59 <ion> I’d hope so, but i haven’t researched what’s available.
07:21:36 <elliott> anyway i might go for a graphically-rendered non-terminal thing i dunno
07:22:23 <elliott> i kind of like the imposed 80x24 constraint you get if you go terminal-based and have moral standards though
07:22:24 <ion> Cairo supports OpenGL, but i don’t know whether it would be useful for a game.
07:22:40 <elliott> also: font rendering is "a pain"
07:22:47 <elliott> with a terminal everyone gets to use font rendering they like, more or less
07:22:56 <monqy> everything is a pain
07:22:58 <elliott> if i do it myself text will probably be kinda yucky
07:23:27 <monqy> my reasons for terminal would be: font, terminal, online play, termcaste
07:23:33 <elliott> i've preferred a graphical display occasionally because you can improve things like new monster discoverability with it
07:23:55 <elliott> like it would actually be useful for brief stats to appear as a "tooltip" style thing when a new monster appears
07:24:03 <elliott> you can't really do that with a terminal
07:24:24 <elliott> monqy: wrt online play/termcasting, I have a fairly solid plan for that already
07:24:56 <elliott> since I'm abstracting backends, the engine will explicitly keep track of "what the player knows/sees"; i.e. taking into account LOS and invisible monsters (if I have those) and so on
07:25:02 <elliott> as a separate entity from the game world itself
07:25:09 <elliott> and it will also keep track of how it /changes/ from one turn to the next
07:25:13 <ion> Browser-based is an alternative, too.
07:25:19 <elliott> so you can turn that into a network protocol really easily
07:25:26 <elliott> by simply streaming the changes
07:25:30 <elliott> and that can be plugged in to the frontend locally
07:25:41 <elliott> so you can use your client with your settings to connect to an external server
07:25:49 <elliott> and similarly you can "termcast" by playing locally and also streaming the same stuff
07:26:02 <elliott> and play on a server by having your client connect to a server and send commands/render the changes it gets
07:26:12 <elliott> (which the server then also sends to anyone who wants to watch)
07:26:25 <ion> That stream with timestamps also works as a saved “termcast”.
07:26:25 <elliott> monqy: it does require that people who want to watch have to have the game which is a disadvantage but
07:26:36 <monqy> abstracting backens is something i'd do even if i only planned on implementing one backend but
07:26:38 <elliott> it's better than a termcast because you can e.g.
07:26:47 <monqy> uuugh writing multiple backends and networking stuff
07:27:02 <elliott> it'd be really nice to be able to look at someone's inventory
07:27:06 <elliott> even if they don't choose to
07:27:27 <ion> And you’ll be able to freely look at the inventory, abilities etc. while observing.
07:27:34 <ion> Oh, you just said that. :-D
07:28:02 <elliott> basically as long as you have a clear separation of game world / known game state / commands that have an in-game effect (like changing a training schedule or whatever) vs. commands that are just interface commands (opening/closing inventory, examining items, etc.)
07:28:18 <elliott> then you get recording/broadcasting/server play for free
07:28:29 <elliott> oh *you also have to track deltas
07:28:32 <elliott> rather than just mutating things in-place
07:28:38 <elliott> monqy: well, for cheap, at leat
07:29:11 <ion> Perhaps also not make everything about the game based on convoluted logic written in low-level C code spread over a bunch of files under ellawl-ref/source.
07:29:20 <elliott> monqy: it *is* nice that people can play online and always get the latest version of the game though
07:29:28 <elliott> which you lose with this, you have to update it yourself
07:30:08 <elliott> monqy: i *could* implement all this and then just only write a terminal backend and put it behind a mosh server
07:30:17 <elliott> but it feels like such a waste given the advantages
07:30:25 <elliott> the recordings would be useful even if i did that
07:30:30 <elliott> since you could watch them with the server's copy of the game
07:30:36 <elliott> and still get all the nice seeking tools and so on
07:30:39 <ion> elliott: Well, not very C++-like C++, but it’s C++ FSVO C++. :-P
07:30:43 <elliott> (and watch with your preferred charset!)
07:31:02 <ion> or your preferred client, such as one on a smartphone or a browser-based one.
07:31:11 <ion> or a terminal client on a VT100.
07:31:16 <elliott> ion: you lost track of what i was saying.
07:31:24 <elliott> you should read everything i say before replying :p
07:31:36 <elliott> 08:29 <elliott> monqy: so, i'm torn
07:31:36 <elliott> 08:30 <elliott> monqy: i *could* implement all this and then just only write a terminal backend and put it behind a mosh server
07:31:37 <elliott> 08:30 <elliott> but it feels like such a waste given the advantages
07:31:38 <elliott> 08:30 <elliott> actually having said that
07:31:40 <elliott> 08:30 <elliott> the recordings would be useful even if i did that
07:31:40 <ion> Sorry, i’m very tired and have a bit of trouble concentrating. :-)
07:31:51 <elliott> tiredness excuses don't work on me!
07:32:00 <elliott> also, I never read anything anyone else says before replying
07:32:07 <elliott> i'm just complaining because complaining is grreat
07:33:30 <elliott> monqy: i don't really plan to have releases so
07:33:35 <elliott> i do want everyone just playing the latest VCS version
07:33:46 <elliott> which makes the you-have-to-install-it-locally thing difficult
07:33:49 <monqy> i haven t decided about releasinge
07:33:57 <monqy> dont want to write autoupdates
07:34:16 <elliott> it would never work on e.g. linux where there's a billion things that can go wrong compiling
07:34:35 <elliott> monqy: what i could do is make the backend a separate executable
07:34:54 <elliott> all it has to handle is rendering a grid and messages and a stat display and do whatever fancy things like tooltips i add
07:35:00 <elliott> it wouldn't need updating when the game updated
07:35:03 <elliott> but that'd make things like
07:35:06 <elliott> viewing inventory of a game you're watching hard
07:36:04 <elliott> i still haven't decided whether to go for 16 or 256 colours oops
07:36:25 <kmc> how about 88 colors!
07:36:48 <monqy> for terminal im torn. for nonterm i;d just go all coloiurs all the time
07:37:01 <kmc> no two pixels should ever have the same color
07:37:19 <monqy> that's what happens when you go all coloiurs all the time
07:38:12 <kmc> there should be an artform where you pick a 256-color palette and then draw a 16x16 image which uses each color exactly once
07:38:57 <elliott> there's a program that converts images to huge ones that use an entire 16-bit pallette
07:39:04 <elliott> but still look basically the same (except awful)
07:39:40 <monqy> oh hey elynae's playing sprint iii
07:39:48 <monqy> now's your chance to see sprint in motion
07:40:12 <elliott> that crawl light game was exceedingly dull
07:41:16 <elliott> "sprinting is tough worke"
07:41:35 <elliott> monqy: the thing with 256 colours is that picking colours for tiles becomes ~impossible
07:41:43 <elliott> it allows for things like pretty shading for like
07:41:51 <monqy> i think i've only won sprints 1 and 5 :( but i've won them a lote
07:41:52 <elliott> or heat (if theiy'res fyre)
07:42:08 <elliott> pseudorandom shades of grey for walls and floor!!!
07:42:56 <monqy> the trick to picking tiles colours is restrict yourself to say a 16 coloure palaet and then vary the coloures at rune time based on conditieons
07:43:13 <monqy> or just a random variation
07:43:27 <elliott> just make everything rainbow
07:43:33 <elliott> every tile is flashing rainbow
07:43:58 <kmc> http://throbs.net/fun/swf.asp?rgb.swf (seizure warning)
07:45:25 <elliott> have you noticed how it stops seeming to have colour after a while
07:45:30 <elliott> the colour becomes "flashing"
07:49:12 <elliott> monqy: ive solved my colour problem "the solution is tiles" (guffaws)
07:52:58 <elliott> monqy: maybe ill colour everything programmatically
07:53:10 <elliott> how do they decide tile colours for nethack and dcss anyway
07:53:17 <elliott> well i guess nobody knows about the former
07:53:56 <monqy> i don't know exactly how brogue does it but not everything of the same tile has the same colour so it definitely does something
07:54:11 <elliott> yeah seeing brogue screenshot is what made me think maybe i should 256
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07:55:50 <elliott> monqy: should i play brogue can brogue be played online
07:56:02 <monqy> i dunno if there are any brogue servers
07:56:34 <monqy> and yes i recommend playing brogue it was fun until i got sick of it
07:56:48 <elliott> ie does it have ~terminal playe~
07:57:02 <monqy> there are least used to be terminalmod but it's uuugly
07:57:24 <monqy> (and the faketerm mode is pretty)
07:57:47 <elliott> how can i play any game without broadcasting it!!!
07:58:02 <monqy> try the terminalmode
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08:10:15 <kmc> Ubuntu 13.04 Radical Radish
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08:16:14 <cheater_> 13.04 would be Severe Skidmarks
08:17:09 <cheater_> 16.10 would be Zygohistomorphic Zebromorphism
08:17:52 <olsner> 12.10 is Quantal Quetzal
08:18:29 <cheater_> right, the english alphabet is different
08:18:56 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, don't interact with cheater_; that way, he'll fuck off quicker.
08:19:54 <cheater_> i'll get some pop-corn and hang around
08:22:02 <kmc> cheater_++ for Zygohistomorphic Zebromorphism
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08:22:48 <kmc> cheater_ says the most innocuous thing and everyone flips out and gets butthurt
08:22:54 <kmc> he is such a good troll that he doesn't need to do any trolling
08:26:26 <kmc> sounds good
08:27:34 <cheater_> so apparently software patents have been disabled from functioning in an EU court
08:27:49 <cheater_> waiting for the rest of the world to follow
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08:33:26 <Taneb> I think it's dwarf fortress time
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08:45:30 <Sgeo> Taneb, I my me mine I my me mine I my me mine I my me mine
08:45:39 <Sgeo> (Yes, that has a very tenuous connection to DF)
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09:06:40 <cheater_> i'm probably too stupid to play dwarf fortress, i keep on losing right away.
09:11:39 <Sgeo> cheater_, there are guides...
10:02:22 <kmc> in g++ 2.x you could define operator?:
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13:50:01 <ais523> <STL> I seriously have no idea what the mingw.org guys are thinking. Their installer has an installer.
13:53:24 <ais523> meanwhile, I have decided that because all existing free wave-to-score programs suck, I need to write my own
13:54:58 <ais523> I'm making decent progress, by using a novel approach I'm not sure has been tried yet
13:55:04 <ais523> it's based on /not/ doing fourier transforms
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14:14:07 <AnotherTest> I created a page on your wiki, http://esolangs.org/wiki/~English, about a language I designed. Is it okay?
14:18:39 <ais523> AnotherTest: it's OK to document an esolang even if you're the only person who knows about it
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14:31:10 <cheater__> Sgeo: yeah, but i think playing by guides is sort of boring
14:31:13 -!- impomatic has joined.
14:31:21 <cheater__> Sgeo: it's less playing and more work
14:31:35 <Taneb> Then you will NEVER BE ABLE TO PLAY DWARF FORTRESS
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14:53:04 <Taneb> Can someone check out Lowgate again and see if it's correctly possibly-turing-complete now?
14:53:16 <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Taneb/Lowgate_and_Dilston
15:25:55 <Taneb> I may play dwarf fortress for a bit
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15:55:27 -!- Gregor has set topic: It looks like an anemometer, but it is not. Anemometers don't fire bullets. Not even the expensive ones! Or I don't think they do ... if they do, meteorologists are more hardcore than I thought. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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16:32:02 <ais523> how do I create a modifiable associative array in Javascript? is it {}, new Array. new {}, or something else?
16:34:45 <Lumpio-> And it's an object in JS parlance
16:35:02 <Lumpio-> new Array shouldn't be used at all in most cases
16:35:06 <ais523> OK, just wondering if I'd create a constant if I did that
16:35:22 <ais523> I really don't remember much JavaScript…
16:35:22 <Lumpio-> new {｝ isn't even valid syntax
16:35:33 <Lumpio-> JS doesn't have constants really
16:35:51 <Lumpio-> Or well, strings and numbers are immutable
16:36:00 <Lumpio-> But there are no immutable tuples or sequences
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16:57:12 <shachaf> Single DES doesn't sound like a good thing to use.
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17:12:33 <Taneb> I'm figuring out how to use reddit
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17:33:21 <Taneb> I'm streaming df again
17:44:12 <ais523> and it is not a good language to teach people as their first programming language
17:44:12 <AnotherTest> I don't really like it, since I have only a limited amount of RAM on this old machine
17:44:22 <ais523> indeed, it can be quite RAM-hungry
17:44:38 <fizzie> Fortunately all new machines come with infinite amounts of.
17:45:33 <AnotherTest> I have a newer machine too, although I always like software to be usable on both
17:46:35 <Taneb> The first (and so far, only) language I got decent at is Haskell
17:47:03 <Taneb> But that's because I think weird?
17:47:04 <AnotherTest> I was thinking about looking into that further some time ago
17:47:31 <AnotherTest> But I eventually just stayed with good old C++
17:48:06 <Taneb> I'm trying to learn C
17:48:44 <Taneb> C++ doesn't quite appeal to me
17:49:41 <AnotherTest> When I write C code, I'm usually annoyed by the unchecked type system
17:49:41 <ais523> C++ is really incredibly far too complicated for its own good
17:50:00 <ais523> and just like XML and violence, the cure for dealing with C++ features tends to be more C++ features
17:51:20 <AnotherTest> ais523: but you can't ignore that some of those features are really appealing
17:51:34 <ais523> AnotherTest: which are you a fan of?
17:51:43 <Taneb> Maybe because there's no equivalent for XSLT in S-expressions?
17:51:53 <Taneb> Unless Lisp is one?
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17:52:03 <ais523> Taneb: Lisp has macros, which are saner than templates
17:52:23 <ais523> AnotherTest: do you know what SFINAE means?
17:52:31 <Taneb> Most web browsers don't run Lisp
17:52:37 <ais523> AnotherTest: the word has a different meaning in Lisp to cp
17:52:46 <ais523> doesn't mean anything to cp :P
17:53:35 <ais523> AnotherTest: that C++ templates are so complicated that it's even /meaningful/ is a sign that something is wrong
17:53:53 <ais523> they'd probably have been better of with explicit arguments in the <>, that'd avoid three quarters of the issues with them
17:54:00 <ais523> although that'd still leave quite a lot wrong
17:54:01 * impomatic wants to learn a tiny language next so I can write my own compiler / interpreter. I though maybe Algol 60 or Oberon.
17:54:12 <ais523> impomatic: ooh, go algol 60
17:54:23 <ais523> I study mathematical idealizations of that, it's a really neat language
17:54:29 <ais523> and there's not really been anything similar since
17:55:04 <impomatic> I have a few books on Algol... Maybe after I finished the next version of Itsy Forth.
17:55:21 <Taneb> Unfortunately, my C textbook was written pre-ANSI
17:55:50 <impomatic> Teneb: mine too. But you should be able to pick one up for a few $
17:56:13 <AnotherTest> ais523: templates may have problems, but I think every language feature in every language has problems
17:56:37 <AnotherTest> what language would you propose as an alternative?
17:57:13 <ais523> well, it really depends on what you're using it for
17:57:41 <ais523> C's typechecking is only marginally worse than C++'s
17:57:43 <AnotherTest> and also, it doesn't allow for user defined types
17:57:57 <ais523> err, yes it does? typedef exists, as do struct, union, and enum
17:57:58 <AnotherTest> C++'s type checking isn't that bad at all I think
17:58:08 <ais523> C and C++ have /almost the same typechecking algorithm/
17:58:10 <AnotherTest> yes, but those do not allow member functions
17:58:15 <ais523> only difference is that C++ treats const differently
17:58:19 <ais523> AnotherTest: are your member functions virtual?
17:58:35 <ais523> if not, you can replace them with non-member functions with no issues
17:58:57 <AnotherTest> Yes, but it takes away a notational convenience
17:59:10 <Taneb> I can get a second-hand copy of K&R C for 18.70
17:59:10 <ais523> who cares, it takes away a lot /more/ inconveniences
17:59:40 <ais523> in fact, if you really need virtual functions, it's typically more straightforward to implement a vtable by hand than it is to use C++, which is a pretty crazy state of affairs
18:00:04 <AnotherTest> I doubt I have even a hundredths of your experience but I did find C++ quite nice so far
18:00:05 <ais523> Taneb: floating point rounding error, I guess
18:00:21 <Taneb> But that's how much a new copy costs from amazon
18:00:26 <ais523> impomatic: I don't know that much about it
18:01:21 <Taneb> It seems most of this channel is in either #0x10c-dev or #haskell or both
18:01:39 <ais523> and haven't heard of #0x10c-dev
18:02:08 <AnotherTest> although I'm not a frequent freenode visitor
18:02:10 <ais523> hmm… 0x10c is 256+12 is 268
18:02:21 <ais523> I don't see an obvious meaning to the number
18:02:47 <AnotherTest> The year 268 would have been a leap year :p
18:06:15 <Taneb> It's Notch's (the maker of Minecraft) next game
18:06:49 <ais523> presumably he's started using bizarre names ever since Bethesda threatened to sue him
18:06:52 <Deewiant> Read the "backstory and setting"
18:08:18 <Taneb> Heh, I think I'm taking a trope too literally
18:08:24 <Taneb> I'm wearing a flag on my head
18:08:34 <ais523> apparently Notch offered to settle the lawsuit with a match of Quake III
18:08:36 <Taneb> Also, bbq time, see you guys later!
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18:09:02 <impomatic> Taneb: 9.46 http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Programming-Language-ansi-Version/dp/8120305965/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1336241084&sr=8-4
18:10:09 <ais523> impomatic: is that K&R2?
18:10:26 <ais523> I wonder if that's still in print
18:10:31 <AnotherTest> ais523: Answering a question not asked to me; yes
18:12:27 <AnotherTest> ais523: You said you teach Java? I'm interested, what else do you teach?
18:12:43 <ais523> used to teach C, but I got out of that
18:12:54 <ais523> that module was a mess, and I couldn't do anything about it
18:12:55 <AnotherTest> Heard of that, it's a functional language based on ML right?
18:13:00 <ais523> it was trying to fit far too much into the syllabus
18:13:19 <ais523> AnotherTest: ML is a functional+imperative language; Caml is a dialect, OCaml adds objects to it but people rarely use them
18:13:40 <ais523> just that OCaml is probably the best-supported ML dialect around at the moment, so people use OCaml when they just want a generic ML
18:13:47 <ais523> (much to the annoyance of SML fans)
18:13:53 <AnotherTest> I read it in 'an introduction to lambda calculus'(one of the many) I guess
18:16:34 <AnotherTest> Do the students learn Java as a first language?
18:16:35 <Deewiant> ais523: By functional+imperative do you just mean impure functional
18:16:56 <ais523> Deewiant: I mean that the language contains first-class imperative constructs
18:17:02 <ais523> ifs, whiles, assignable variables, that sort of thing
18:17:12 <AnotherTest> I live very near the university of Leuven and here all students start with Java
18:17:25 <ais523> AnotherTest: they do, although it's not really a good choice for a first language
18:17:49 <AnotherTest> What language would you say is good to start out with?
18:18:02 <AnotherTest> also, why would it be not a good language to start out with?
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18:18:52 <AnotherTest> Although that's not really general-purpose, and I think it might be better to start out with a general-purpose language(?)
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18:21:04 <AnotherTest> not to insult you, but he once said that "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
18:22:01 <impomatic> zzo38: is this your site? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net :-)
18:22:09 <zzo38> Yes I agree Dijkstra was wrong. Possibly with some students it will be difficult not everyone though
18:23:01 <AnotherTest> http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD04xx/EWD498.html
18:23:52 <impomatic> zzo38: Google sent me to FORTAVM :-)
18:24:30 <zzo38> impomatic: Google sents you to everywhere
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18:26:49 <impomatic> zzo38: not quite everywhere. I see this a couple of times a day "In response to a complaint we received under the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page" :-(
18:28:26 <zzo38> It should also not send you to my webpage because I have blocked that from any search engine
18:28:31 <AnotherTest> It's my first esoteric programming language. Is it bad/alright/whatever?
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18:35:21 <zzo38> AnotherTest: I don't know.
18:36:51 <AnotherTest> because I like it on one side, but I dislike the scalar type
18:37:53 <zzo38> I don't know a lot about Perl programming, but I do know AWK
18:44:04 <ais523> AnotherTest: I like it quite a bit
18:44:24 <ais523> it's not appropriate for everything, but it's the language I normally use for writing a one-off program, or for writing glue code (whether one-off or not)
18:49:56 <zzo38> Someone said the Canadian government would be stop making pennies. Is it correct? And, does United States government doing the same thing? If it is correct, can the stores accept United States coins (many already do) so that you can pay for one cents as well?
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18:53:47 <coppro> zzo38: that is correct; the last penny was minted yesterday.
18:54:01 <coppro> The US has no plans at the point that I'm aware of.
18:54:12 <coppro> I suppose that stores will accept US pennies, likely
18:55:14 <zzo38> Also, how does this affect taxes?
18:56:26 <coppro> Taxes aren't paid in cash
18:57:01 <Gregor> Uhhh, surely taxes CAN be paid in cash.
18:58:58 <zzo38> Do you like this chess variant? Except for the White player's first turn, each player may, twice per game, move a piece with duplication meaning a copy is left at its original location. You may not duplicate queens and kings (although pawns can be duplicated). Also, pawns can use such a move while capturing or non-capturing; other pieces can use duplication only for non-capturing.
18:59:45 <coppro> Gregor: I've never heard of anyone paying taxes in cash rather by cheque or other means
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19:00:28 <Gregor> coppro: I don't mean that it's ever done, but all sorts of theories of economics break down if cash can't even be used to pay the institution that defines its value ...
19:01:50 <coppro> Gregor: No they really don't
19:02:37 <ais523> Gregor: you can definitely clear bills in the UK using cash, there are designated places you can go to with some cash and some bills you want to pay, and they will take the cash from you and electronically send the same amount of money to the person the bill is from
19:02:51 <ais523> only works with compatible bills, but there are quite a lot of those
19:03:33 <ais523> mostly it's done in supermarkets, to make sure they're sufficiently commonplace
19:03:57 <coppro> Gregor: money is artificial; physical cash too
19:05:34 <Gregor> coppro: No shit. Not relevant.
19:06:17 <coppro> cash can be used to pay, just not directly
19:06:35 <Gregor> The government should not be forced to rely on other institutions to accept payment.
19:07:09 <Gregor> Moreover, the government should not force YOU to rely on other institutions to give payment.
19:08:48 <Gregor> Well, your argument is both powerful and convincing X_X
19:10:22 <coppro> Gregor: It is stupid to make a system that relies exclusively on the transfer of physical objects with deemed value, when there is nothing in particular that is special about those objects versus any other forms of payment
19:11:13 <coppro> Physical cash is not the underpinning of the economy
19:11:20 <Gregor> coppro: There is nothing special in general fare, but there is something special for the government: THEY MINT IT.
19:12:49 <coppro> physical cash is a convenience
19:13:24 <Gregor> Physical cash is a convenience which also happens to be the only form of money directly attributed value by the government trying to accept funds X_X
19:14:45 <Gregor> This conversation. It is so pointless. I don't even give a fuck anymore.
19:14:52 <coppro> laws about bills of exchange exist
19:14:54 <Kray> physical cash is only a token of value
19:15:10 <coppro> a cheque is a negotiable instrument the same as cash
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19:16:39 <coppro> it has its value defined by reference to cash, but there is no reason that cash needs to exist. If the government made a law saying "the new currency is the entirely digital zordnik. We are going to regulate the supply of zordniks like we did paper money." things would work fine.
19:18:28 <zzo38> I have a idea for "digital cheques": You put the cheque number, sequence number, date, amount, and type of currency, and then digitally sign it with your private key. It may be further encrypted with the recipient's public key and/or the bank's key (to ensure not NSF cheque). And then you print it out and give it to the recipient the same as an ordinary cheque.
19:18:29 <Gregor> BUT THEY DIDN'T FUCKING DO THAT
19:18:58 <Gregor> A check is an instrument the same as cash negotiated WITH BANKS. The banks are regulated but they are not the government.
19:19:04 <Gregor> Argh why am I still talking
19:19:14 <Gregor> I need elliott's "just huff out" ability.
19:19:17 <zzo38> (The sequence number is there to ensure that it is not copied)
19:23:46 <coppro> Gregor: The banks are institutions granted charter by the government. Like, say, the mint.
19:27:46 <zzo38> I had some question in here before relating to mathematics; I would wonder, does somme people in here, know any of these answers?
19:28:49 <coppro> can you reask them or point to them in the logs
19:29:36 <zzo38> One question is, I know that a category equipped with a faithful functor to category of sets is called concrete category. But what is a category which is equipped with a fully faithful functor to the free category of a subset of its quiver?
19:31:40 <zzo38> I have other question too, in case you want them repeated at this time, too.
19:35:10 <zzo38> Is there a dioid which is also a dioid if addition is swapped with multiplication and zero is swapped with one; and what (if anything) does this have to do with topology?
19:38:05 <ais523> bleh, this closure isn't closing properly
19:38:38 * ais523 tries putting it in an anonymous scope
19:38:51 <zzo38> ais523: What closure do you mean?
19:39:05 <ais523> it's an anonymous function in JavaScript
19:39:56 <zzo38> coppro: Do you even know answer of these question relating to mathematics?
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19:53:50 <Gregor> ais523: Pastebin some code.
19:54:41 <ais523> Gregor: I'm going to get around it by using eval, I think, which is really hacky
19:55:06 <Gregor> Uhh, yeah, don't do that X-D
19:55:16 <Gregor> Post some code or describe your problem or something X-D
19:55:58 <ais523> basically, I do { var fc = f; var gc = g; obj.onchange = function() { myfunc(fc, gc); } }
19:56:36 <ais523> and when myfunc's called, it's always with the values of f and g on the last iteration of the loop
19:56:58 <Gregor> (function(fc, gc) { return function() { ... }; })(f, g)
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19:57:20 <zzo38> Why is it bizarre?
19:57:23 <Gregor> That ... is not bizarre. At all.
19:57:28 <Gregor> It's just an imperative language with closures.
19:57:28 <ais523> Gregor: wouldn't that just call the function immediately?
19:57:30 <Lumpio-> That's how closure works in any language I've used
19:57:41 <HackEgo> jfischoff: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
19:57:43 <Lumpio-> But what that achieves is that it rebinds the variables
19:57:44 <Gregor> ais523: That calls the OUTER function immediately, the outer function returns an inner function which closes as you expect.
19:57:50 <ais523> oh, I see, you need a scope that happens to belong to a function to close, rather than just any function
19:57:50 <zzo38> It make sense to me.
19:57:51 <Lumpio-> Creates a new environment with their current values
19:57:54 <ais523> what a weird restriction
19:58:05 <ais523> in Perl, any lexical scope will do
19:58:05 <Gregor> ais523: JavaScript only HAS function-level scopes.
19:58:08 <zzo38> How is it weird? It is sensible to me.
19:58:16 <ais523> Gregor: ah, OK, that's what I was missing
19:58:19 <Lumpio-> Actually newer versions of JS have block scope
19:58:24 <Lumpio-> If you use "let" instead of "var"
19:58:26 <zzo38> Gregor: In Mozilla, you can use let to add other scopes too
19:58:43 <Gregor> zzo38: Fine fine, in ECMAScript you only have function-level scopes.
19:59:14 <zzo38> Mozilla also supports yield, and also allows changing prototypes, which I have occasionally found to be useful.
19:59:32 <zzo38> So, if you are writing the program to run in Mozilla, then you can use these features.
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20:01:42 <Gregor> jfischoff: You're lucky, we're actually talking about a language, albeit a nonesoteric one. Usually we talk about stupid nonsense and play with the bots.
20:02:11 <zzo38> As well as a large number of other stuff.
20:02:20 <Gregor> Oh, but you're not actually new, I just hadn't seen you X-D
20:02:26 <zzo38> We are rarely on the topic but feel free to ask anyways.
20:02:47 <zzo38> This is an advice that you should tell to everyone entering this channel.
20:03:24 <Gregor> We should add it to `welcome ^^
20:03:34 <Gregor> Welcome to a channel where we talk about random shit, enjoy!
20:04:11 <jfischoff> Gregor: What is surprising about javascript is the variance of the user's skill level
20:04:38 <jfischoff> so people think it is a bad language
20:04:41 <Gregor> From "obviously eval is the only way to solve this what are arrays?" to "I use JavaScript because I have years of experience with Scheme"
20:05:49 <jfischoff> http://osteele.com/sources/javascript/functional/
20:06:10 <ais523> I know it's an OK language, but I also know I'm not very good at it
20:06:15 <Lumpio-> ...I don't think the variance is surprising at all
20:06:23 <ais523> I'd almost understood it right, just missed the nonexistence of inner scopes
20:06:23 <Lumpio-> At least it has /some/ good users
20:06:51 <zzo38> Yes, JavaScript is better than PHP
20:09:57 <zzo38> But, FurryScript and Icoruma are implemented in PHP. Unfortunately, Icoruma is too slow with PHP. But at least I do better that Internet Quiz Engine is implemented in C (you might disagree and say there are security issues; but look at the program and then make a better opinion/analysis).
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20:13:27 <zzo38> (Actually, the main menu of Internet Quiz Engine (selectors starting "quiz.menu") is implemented in PHP, but when a quiz file is running (selectors starting "quiz.run"), that part is written in C.)
20:13:54 <coppro> although the first seems irrelevant
20:14:01 <coppro> and the second far too vague
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20:15:32 <zzo38> coppro: You are refering to my questions about mathematics? What makes the first one irrelevant? And what is wrong with the second one?
20:16:30 <coppro> the first one is nomenclature for a property that does not seem particularly relevant, and "what does X have to do with Y" is, as a rule, always too vague
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20:25:19 <zzo38> coppro: Do you have any opinion about my Haskell "prelude-generalize"?
20:26:54 <coppro> I don't know what that is.
20:28:44 <zzo38> It affects the type of many standard functions, as well as implement a few new classes, and import common things from many other modules. Such as: head :: Foldable t => t x -> x; tail :: MonadLogic m => m x -> m x; (!!) :: (Copeanoid i, Foldable t) => t x -> i -> x; filter :: MonadPlus m => (x -> Bool) -> m x -> m x; choice :: (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f x) -> f x; concat :: (MonadPlus m, Foldable f) => m (f x) -> m x;
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20:31:28 <zzo38> In addition, you will write "head" instead of "fromJust", and "null" instead of "isNothing", and "convList" instead of "listToMaybe" or "maybeToList".
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20:40:37 <zzo38> shachaf: Hello. Do you like 83 cent coins?
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20:41:01 <shachaf> zzo38: I've never seen one.
20:41:47 <zzo38> I read an article somewhere that wants the Canadian government to make 83 cent coins.
20:42:01 <shachaf> zzo38: What are you named after?
20:42:49 <zzo38> shachaf: Actually, some random letters and number that a long time ago I was making a design on a pollowcase and ask them I wanted to put numbers, but the only numbers they had is 3 and 8.
20:43:12 <zzo38> (Some people do not believe this; but actually this is true.)
20:43:30 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you see monqy's self-portrait of me?
20:43:39 <zzo38> shachaf: No. I have not seen.
20:46:12 <monqy> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/shachaf.png
20:47:29 <shachaf> monqy: did you ever draw any more self portraits
20:47:51 <monqy> I drew one of elliott and one of myself
20:48:00 <monqy> one of nihilistdandy
20:48:03 <zzo38> This looks some kind of strange
20:48:53 <monqy> I'm a bit busy so it'll have to wait but
20:48:59 <monqy> "maybe eventually I'll do it"
20:49:25 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: IMPRESSIVE
20:49:40 <shachaf> monqy: can i see the one ofe nihilistdandy
20:50:03 <monqy> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/dondy.png
20:50:06 <monqy> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/eliot.png
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20:51:59 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: ask for monqy"s self self portraite
20:52:05 <monqy> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/monqy.png
20:52:26 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: never minde, monqy read your minde
20:53:38 <shachaf> monqy: could you draw a self self portrait of me? or is that too many selves
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20:54:21 <monqy> that was just a self portrait of shachaf
20:54:36 <monqy> I've only ever drawn a self self portrait of myself
20:54:58 <shachaf> in other words a self self self portrait
20:55:31 <monqy> if it's of myself, it's every self potrait
20:55:39 <monqy> it's also a self self self self self portrait
20:55:46 <monqy> and self self self self self self portrait
20:56:06 <monqy> eventually you'll get tired of putting self in front so you may wish to stop while you're ahead
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20:58:09 <ion> > cycle "self " ++ "portrait"
20:58:11 <lambdabot> "self self self self self self self self self self self self self self self...
20:58:28 <shachaf> @let self = fun "self" :: Expr -> Expr
20:58:34 <lambdabot> self (self (self (self (self (self (self (self (self (self (self (self (sel...
21:10:15 <zzo38> data Declaration = Declaration Name [Token] Token deriving (Eq, Show); data Token = T_Name Name | T_Para Int | T_Num Int | T_String PoolString | T_List [Token] | T_Call Name [Token] | T_Enum TreeName | T_Lambda [Int] [Token] deriving (Eq, Show); Now I have [Declaration] what is best way to make the index of the blocks of different kind to be accessed easily? (The first Name of Declaration indicates the kind, not the name, of the block.)
21:11:26 <zzo38> (Note: Name, PoolString, and TreeName are all type synonyms for Word32)
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21:59:10 <ion> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/05/weak-evidence-seizure
22:06:21 <ion> http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57428067-83/fbi-we-need-wiretap-ready-web-sites-now/
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22:39:28 <zzo38> Full moon tonight.
22:41:50 -!- nortti has joined.
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22:44:03 <nortti> yay. Freenode SASL script for irssi requires Crypt::OpenSSL::Bignum which of couse refuses to build correctly on my system
22:46:14 <nortti> And I have confirmed that freenode intentionaly blocked my ISP fron using non-SASL connection
22:46:19 <zzo38> quintopia: In my timezone it is today.
22:46:51 <quintopia> zzo38: sometime between dusk here and dawn here :)
22:47:41 <zzo38> In GMT it is (Sun) 5/ 6/2012 3:35 Sun (Tau) Opp (Sco) Moon
22:48:18 <zzo38> In my timezone it is at 20:35 today
22:48:59 <zzo38> Your app is wrong? What app is that? Maybe you misconfigured it?
22:49:38 <lambdabot> Local time for nortti is Sun May 06 01:52:05 UTC+3.00 2012
22:50:43 <zzo38> Then get a better program, such as the UNIX "phase of moon" program, or Astrolog.
22:51:19 <nortti> http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/photoshop/7/8/9/127789.jpg?v=1
22:51:57 <Phantom__Hoover> nortti, please stop pasting today's Cracked articles into the channel.
22:52:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Otherwise you will be shipped off to Guantanamo under UK anti-free speech legislation.
22:53:06 <nortti> Phantom__Hoover: But I happen to live in finland
22:53:24 <Phantom__Hoover> We'll invade you because we're so jealous of your free utopia.
23:00:34 <nortti> Phantom__Hoover: by the way os there anything new going on in Airstrip One?
23:01:05 <Phantom__Hoover> Well we considered passing a motion to outlaw happiness for young, liberal 20somethings.
23:06:25 <nortti> "It was during this age that most of the Finnish culture formed, like the Sauna, the Finnish cottage (mokki), hunting (metsastys) and drinking themselves to death due to depression(perjantai-ilta)."
23:10:38 <nortti> "We're going to take a trip, way, way back to the prehistoric times of April 18, 2011: The day Apple claimed ownership of the rectangle."
23:11:15 <monqy> I'd ask what, but really I don't want to know
23:11:32 <monqy> elliott: forgive me etc etc etc
23:12:48 <nortti> monqy: which one you don't want to know about
23:16:12 <nortti> monqy: first one: perjantai-ilta means friday evening
23:17:03 <Phantom__Hoover> Hey wow Minecraft finally eliminated seperate single-player.
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23:26:28 <shachaf> elliott: forgive monqy etc etc etc
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23:29:30 <nortti> http://cnet.com/news/57428067
23:31:44 <cheater__> zzo38: full moon was yesterday already
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23:57:10 <kmc> shachaf: indeed single DES is not a good thing to use
23:57:57 <kmc> it looks like these people will sell you a device which brute forces DES in a day for $10,000: http://www.sciengines.com/
23:59:29 <kmc> there are so many other ways to screw up crypto; if brute force is a realistic attack for your system that's really pathetic
00:00:51 <shachaf> DES was probably less pathetic in the 1970s.
00:01:37 <kmc> i don't know why MIT can't switch now
00:01:38 <Sgeo> kmc, Debian keys produced with that bug, would trying all possible keys be considered brute-force?
00:02:21 <kmc> probably they have some legacy system that only does DES but i don't know what or how important it is
00:02:42 <kmc> i think SIPB should force the issue by buying a DES cracker; they have too much money anyway
00:02:53 <kmc> Sgeo: not for the purposes of my statement
00:02:57 <kmc> the screwup there is Debian's patch
00:03:27 <shachaf> Does a device that brute-forces DES in a day really cost $10,000?
00:04:02 <zzo38> cheater__: Yesterday? But the full moon has not yet occurred.
00:07:40 <zzo38> It isn't quite full.
00:09:22 <kmc> shachaf: it's hard to find prices, but some places say $10k
00:09:30 <kmc> i believe it anyway
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00:12:13 <shachaf> I mean that I would've expected it to be less.
00:12:20 <shachaf> But I don't have much of a reference point.
00:12:34 <shachaf> (Other than "$250,000 in 1999, apparently".)
00:12:52 <zzo38> If you have a horoscope, you can see when the full moon is. There should be a line (called an aspect) between the sun and moon. If this line passes through the center of the chart, then it is full moon. The moon and sun move counterclockwise relative to the signs; the moon moves much faster. So depending on which side the aspect line misses the center, you can see the before/after full moon.
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00:13:11 <kmc> EFF's thingy used custom chips
00:14:11 <cheater__> zzo38: is there a bare eye way to discern a full and not-quite-full moon?
00:14:40 <zzo38> cheater__: I don't know if the difference is enough to see by a bare eye; you might need a telescope.
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00:31:45 <ion> phantom_hoover: URL, please.
00:31:54 <ion> Oh, he left.
00:35:29 <zzo38> You could use the UNIX "phase of moon" program if you have it, to tell you phase of moon. You could also use a program such as Astrolog to tell you the phase of moon and many more things (if you can understand what everything means). Most calendars also have phase of moon but those only indicate the date and not the time of day, so it may not be precise enough.
00:36:28 <zzo38> (Note: Astrolog has the ability to print calendars, but you cannot plot any other data on these calendars; only the month, days of week, and day numbers are being displayed!)
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02:05:11 <zzo38> What is the bird for (\f g x -> f (g x) (g x))?
02:07:54 <itidus21> Rooster is only going to make some of us hungry.
02:14:31 <zzo38> I made it so that Warbler is a type for endomorphisms of any category and Starling is a type for endomorphisms of a Kleisli category of a monad on any category.
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02:23:16 <itidus21> `log [e]xtend every extra extreme
02:23:52 <itidus21> `log [e]xtend every extra extreme
02:24:07 <HackEgo> 2012-04-26.txt:01:24:11: <itidus20> and finally, there is a game named Extend Every Extra, and as google told me another one named Extend Every Extra Extreme. And another game named Kingdom Hearts 3D subtitled Dream Drop Distance
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02:48:57 <zzo38> Do you agree that the whole house system is stupid?
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03:23:29 <ion> s/house //, yeah
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04:13:31 <Taneb> The time is not a time I like
04:13:57 <Taneb> Because it's inbetween 3 and 6 AM
04:14:40 <zzo38> What house is the sun at?
04:15:11 <Taneb> I don't actually know what that means
04:15:22 <zzo38> No, I mean the houses on a horoscope; they only go up to 12.
04:15:50 <Taneb> Well, I have no idea
04:16:21 <zzo38> (Houses numbered 1 to 6 are below the horizon; numbered 7 to 12 are above the horizon. The sun is at the cusp of the 10th house at solar noon.)
04:17:02 <Taneb> It looks like twilight at the moment?
04:17:13 <Taneb> But it's been twilight for a while
04:21:53 <zzo38> On my computer I can compute those things with a few different house systems. In my location, sun is in 6th house.
04:22:25 <zzo38> For twilight, maybe the sun is in first house?
04:25:02 <Taneb> If I give you my co-ordinates, will that help?
04:25:51 <Taneb> 54.9695 N, 2.0842 W
04:26:36 <zzo38> That is close enough
04:26:56 <zzo38> Yes the sun is in first house in that location
04:26:56 <Taneb> The approximation is in accuracy, not precision
04:27:23 <zzo38> It is still close enough for most purposes.
04:28:22 <Taneb> Could I have just said "55N, 2W"?
04:28:59 <zzo38> Taneb: The program I have expects two decimal places, and the coordinates of a city in a map should be close enough.
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04:38:58 <itidus21> i was pondering yesterday that it would be interesting to me to have a number that was either: integer a + 0, or integer a + 0 > b > 1 .. written like 3 or 3.f where f stood for fraction
04:40:09 <itidus21> since i will get told off no matter which incorrect notation i use, i tried my best
04:41:05 <itidus21> so, normally i might have 4 numbers: 2, 5.3, 7, 3.11 but i would now have them as: 2, 5.f, 7, 3.f
04:41:36 <itidus21> or probably even leaving the decimal off altogether
04:42:26 <zzo38> Some house systems are Placidus, Campanus, and Regiomontanus.
04:43:11 <zzo38> (There is also Whole, but Whole house system is very stupid so don't use it.)
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05:34:24 <ion> This week’s electronics lectures have a promising start: http://imm.io/oobP
05:50:49 <quintopia> zzo38: have you ever played stratego?
05:58:13 <pikhq_> So. There's a way to stick 364 bytes in a Twitter message.
05:58:24 <pikhq_> Easy. Encode base 2^21-1.
05:59:04 <pikhq_> Twitter's message limit is in codepoints, not bytes.
05:59:18 <kmc> https://blogs.oracle.com/ksplice/entry/the_1st_international_longest_tweet
06:00:45 <pikhq_> Oh, dear, you can use UTF-8 that doesn't map to code points.
06:01:22 <Taneb> I would have thought it would be characters, not codepoints
06:01:37 <pikhq_> Taneb: It's not. If it's characters East Asia is screwed.
06:01:46 <kmc> because they would perform normalization server-side?
06:01:54 <kmc> that's plausible but not what I would expect
06:02:16 <zzo38> quintopia: I have played some similar things.
06:02:48 <kmc> how many copies of U+FDFA 'ARABIC LIGATURE SALLALLAHOU ALAYHE WASALLAM' can you tweet :)
06:03:11 <kmc> that one probably doesn't normalize out to basic letters
06:03:19 <kmc> under whatever twitter would use
06:03:29 <pikhq_> So, the upper bound is... 538 bytes?
06:03:37 <kmc> but there are some situations where single codepoints will expand dramatically
06:04:52 <quintopia> pikhq_: is there a way to print a message longer than usual so that it will display correctly on the twitter site?
06:05:13 <pikhq_> lb((2^31-1)^139)/8 that is.
06:06:20 <zzo38> quintopia: I have once played a chess variant known as kriegspiel.
06:06:33 <quintopia> zzo38: how hard was it? did you win?
06:06:56 <pikhq_> Of course, if their UTF-8 parsing is still more naive you might be able to get more in.
06:07:15 <pikhq_> Maybe they let you use an unbound number of continuation bytes? :)
06:08:11 <zzo38> But I also know about Luzhanqi (which is a Chinese kind of Stratego game)
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06:18:34 <pikhq_> "Assembling service pack", says Windows.
06:18:47 <pikhq_> I like to think they write it in assembly and distribute the source code.
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06:45:34 <itidus21> zzo38: i think one of the biggest problems in game design is that sometimes people think there are rules to follow they can rely on, and other times people think there are no rules
06:47:49 <itidus21> i'll have a second shot at saying that: game designers are subject to the following wiki cut and paste:
06:47:53 <itidus21> "At a group or community level, the conventional levels of significance or salience are slowly embedded in the sign systems and culture, and they cannot arbitrarily be changed."
06:50:31 <itidus21> Like I still don't understand why platform games are fun, but due to convention it is difficult to think about 2d games in other ways.
06:53:29 <pikhq_> 5 fucking hours, and Windows is installed.
06:53:40 <pikhq_> And I still don't have a C compiler!
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07:01:34 <zzo38> itidus21: The rules of game design are whatever you design the rules to be. And then, if you don't like it, adjust it until it is better.
07:02:11 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes, that is the problem of Windows; it lacks many important programs as standard.
07:02:53 <pikhq_> zzo38: Not the only one.
07:03:06 <pikhq_> Probably not even the most significant problem.
07:03:20 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes; there are many other problems too.
07:03:22 <pikhq_> Probably the most significant problem is how stupifyingly hard it is to dev for.
07:03:58 <kmc> yeah, even though free tools exist, a lot of them don't work as well as MSVC
07:04:02 <kmc> like for anything OpenGL
07:04:16 <kmc> if you're just doing basic stuff though, Dev-C++ is a pretty easy way to get mingw set up
07:04:20 <kmc> and an okay IDE
07:04:27 <pikhq_> kmc: And MSVC itself doesn't work tolerably for C.
07:04:34 <kmc> nb: all my information about windows dev is 5+ years out of date
07:04:36 <kmc> pikhq_: oh?
07:04:44 <pikhq_> kmc: They last touched it in the 90s.
07:04:57 <kmc> true, they don't even implement all of C99
07:04:57 <pikhq_> Besides which, unless you're going to use a higher-level language, you're stuck with the Win32 API.
07:05:11 <pikhq_> Which is evidence in favor of the nonexistence of God.
07:05:25 <pikhq_> They don't even implement C90 perfectly.
07:05:39 <kmc> from what i recall, Win32 API is pretty bad, but POSIX is no picnic either
07:05:42 <pikhq_> Though admittedly, that's just because of a couple weird edge cases.
07:06:18 <pikhq_> POSIX is rough. Win32 is designed by monkeys on typewriters.
07:06:34 <kmc> i hear the Windows kernel interface is pretty nice, if undocumented
07:06:47 <zzo38> itidus21: In addition, I do not completely understand that wiki cut and paste.
07:06:47 <Taneb> Win32 contains the letter s a few dozen times, and some monkey piss?
07:06:58 <kmc> because unlike Linux they break compatibility whenever they like
07:07:15 <kmc> Linux has a *lot* of syscalls which are special cases of other syscalls
07:07:50 <pikhq_> int CALLBACK WinMain(HINSTANCE hInstance, HINSTANCE hPrevInstance, LPSTR lpCmdLine, int nCmdShow)
07:08:09 <kmc> what does CALLBACK do?
07:08:10 <pikhq_> How do you make the *entry point itself* seem horrible?
07:08:24 <kmc> that's not so horrible
07:08:30 <pikhq_> kmc: It's one of the calling convention specifiers.
07:08:36 <kmc> which one, though
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07:11:00 <pikhq_> Dammit this is impossibly hard to find.
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07:12:20 <Taneb> It's odd that one of C's main criticisms has became standard in many programming languages
07:13:28 <kmc> that's not one of C's main criticisms
07:13:51 <pikhq_> Worse still, just by not using those *stupid* typedefs it could look nicer: int WinMain(void *h_instance, void *h_previnstance, char *cmdline, int cmd_show)
07:14:49 <pikhq_> Shame that junk's there because Win16.
07:15:20 <Taneb> kmc, it's the criticism of C that I hear most often
07:15:45 <pikhq_> Where it would've been more like int WinMain(void __long * h_instance, void __long *h_previnstance, char __long *cmdline int cmd_show)
07:16:57 <pikhq_> Also, some moron liked his Hungarian.
07:21:43 <kmc> Taneb: that's because people are idiots and can't look past trivial syntactic matters to the things which actually make a language good or bad
07:22:22 <kmc> also it's easy to have an opinion about syntax, and there's no objective right/wrong answer
07:22:33 <pikhq_> Except we can all agree Malbolge is bad.
07:22:48 <pikhq_> Anything less than Malbolge, though? Yeaaah.
07:23:13 <kmc> if you voice an opinion about semantics or types or implementation or security, someone can actually refute your claim with objective fact
07:23:49 <zzo38> kmc: In some cases it might depend what kind of opinion they are, too?
07:23:57 <zzo38> (Like, I mean, more specific than what you said)
07:23:59 <kmc> though the opposite extreme is dumb as well
07:24:21 <kmc> programming language design is largely a user interface problem, and syntax *is* important
07:25:10 <pikhq_> Just easy to bikeshed on.
07:25:21 <pikhq_> Though, any UI problem is.
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07:29:41 <kmc> i think the spelling of = and == is probably below the level that makes a big difference even from a UI / UX perspective
07:30:11 <kmc> stuff like having consistent syntax, uncluttered syntax, that's a big deal
07:30:26 <kmc> = and == are conventional enough by now that I don't really care
07:30:42 <kmc> = versus <- causes loads of confusion in Haskell, but it's not like there's an existing convention to appeal to
07:30:55 <monqy> =/== bugs can be a big deal when you can use = in expressions like in C
07:31:11 <pikhq_> /= in Haskell is a bit weirder.
07:31:34 <kmc> monqy: true, but it's easy enough for a compiler to warn about those
07:31:38 <zzo38> kmc: How does = versus <- cause confusion in Haskell?
07:32:04 <kmc> zzo38: they're both sort of like assignment in traditional imperative languages, but neither is actually that
07:32:19 <kmc> the confusion is not actually syntactic
07:32:47 <kmc> the confusion is that beginners don't have the concept of "let binding" and "monadic sequencing"
07:32:55 <kmc> but it's phrased as "what's the difference between = and <-"
07:32:57 <itidus21> does it ever really help to overload operators when bugs will be caused by the differences?
07:33:05 <pikhq_> Just that the syntax happens to look like the syntax for completely different semantics.
07:33:18 <pikhq_> Though in-and-of-itself = and <- are quite reasonable choices.
07:33:21 <zzo38> kmc: The problem is solved by not using do-notation and list-comprehensions?
07:33:28 <kmc> zzo38: maybe
07:33:37 <zzo38> But = just means to specify the definition of something
07:33:39 <kmc> you still have to explain how = in let/where is not an assignment
07:33:55 <kmc> also in practice people will see tons of code that uses "do" and list comprehensions
07:34:00 <kmc> you can't just ignore them
07:34:09 <itidus21> in general, does not knowing what any piece of a program does always lead to bugs :D
07:34:11 <kmc> itidus21: i recommend writing code without bugs instead
07:34:33 <pikhq_> I recommend writing in /bin/cat.
07:34:47 <kmc> that language has a simple quine
07:34:56 <itidus21> or, in other words, does writing code with side effects always result in bugs?
07:35:23 <zzo38> kmc: Sure, a lot of codes will use them; but you do not have to use them even if another code does.
07:35:43 <kmc> zzo38: but you have to understand them if you want to read existing haskell code
07:35:43 <itidus21> crackers never seem to run out of exploits
07:35:48 <kmc> including any of the popular books
07:35:55 <kmc> and that's really essential if you want to learn the language
07:36:02 <pikhq_> (unless the null file happens to be a valid executable on your system)
07:36:22 <kmc> a "cracker" is someone who breaks into computers, not to be confused with a "hacker", which is someone who cares a lot about what Paul Graham and ESR write
07:37:20 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, that is right; you should understand the features of existing programs.
07:37:42 <itidus21> but do hackers call vulnerabilities in programs "exploits", and write code which makes use of said "exploits"?
07:38:44 <zzo38> itidus21: I suppose it might sometimes be the case; but features of the program might not necessarily be security vulnerabilities
07:38:46 <itidus21> by which i mean, a bug which only matters when someone intentionally invokes it
07:39:51 <itidus21> i imagine that you wouldn't get many bugs in pure functional code
07:40:02 <kmc> itidus21: you'd fit right in in #haskell
07:40:12 <kmc> you should go there and ask them "does writing code with side effects always result in bugs?"
07:40:13 <zzo38> I don't really know if such things really are bugs which only matters when someone intentionally invokes it
07:41:14 <itidus21> verily, one might say the maintenance part of the software development lifecycle is due to side-effects
07:41:58 <pikhq_> Clearly there are no bugs in the software that is never ran.
07:42:16 <cheater__> itidus21: basically, if your program typechecks, it's fairly certain to be doing what it's supposed to do
07:42:26 * pikhq_ for i in /bin/* /usr/bin/*;do ln -sf /dev/null $i;done
07:42:50 <zzo38> Knuth once said "Beware of bugs in the following program; I have only proven it correct, not tried it"
07:42:58 <cheater__> especially functions of type [Char] -> [Char].
07:43:14 <pikhq_> Yeah! What could that possibly do?
07:43:37 <itidus21> well theres a malware side-effect
07:43:45 <pikhq_> Clearly it can't be anything *but* a perfectly correct C-to-Brainfuck compiler.
07:43:49 <cheater__> itidus21: the bonzy buddy theorem, yes.
07:43:58 <zzo38> pikhq_: Well, it is certainly wrong
07:44:09 <itidus21> somewhere between [Char] and [Char]
07:44:56 <zzo38> itidus21: That is why they have Safe Haskell
07:45:20 <zzo38> So that you cannot install a rootkit somewhere between [Char] and [Char]
07:45:23 <cheater__> what if someone calls unsafeExecuteBonziBuddyExe
07:45:38 <itidus21> in c (which is basically all i know) char stuff(char a) { install_rootkit(); return a; } >:-)
07:45:51 <cheater__> unsafeExecuteBonziBuddyExe :: () -> ()
07:46:05 -!- monqy has left.
07:46:22 <pikhq_> stuff = unsafePerformIO install_rootkit `seq` id
07:46:23 <shachaf> There's no channel like #esoteric.
07:47:19 <Taneb> Jamie Oliver and Steven Gerrard have joined forces.
07:47:23 <Taneb> This cannot bode well.
07:47:29 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes, you can od that, but even in C, you could have the operating system deal with what you are doing such as having things to sandbox the program or to trace system calls or whatever
07:47:56 <kmc> who are these people
07:48:35 <cheater__> Celebrity chef Jamie Oliver and England footballer Steven Gerrard are calling on the government to fight obesity through cookery teaching in ...
07:48:58 <cheater__> google is a search engine which you access with the URL http://www.google.com
07:49:12 <itidus21> worse c code might be .. char add(char a, char b) {unsigned int c,d,e; c=(unsigned int)a; b=(unsigned int)d; e=c+d; a=(char)e; return a; }
07:49:21 <zzo38> kmc: What would you think, my opinion that such features of Haskell such as do-notation and so on should be macros rather than built-in; what would you think?
07:49:44 <kmc> zzo38: i would like that
07:49:53 <kmc> i'd like to have a macro system powerful enough to do these things
07:49:57 <pikhq_> itidus21: Why, that's isomorphic to the Haskell code "foo = unsafeLaunchTheMissiles"!
07:49:58 <kmc> as long as it's not also terrible
07:50:25 <pikhq_> I'm stupid: all variables actually do get initialised there.
07:50:28 <cheater__> i was at a job interview last wednesday, and they gave me fizzbuzz, i solved it by concatenating strings, and outputting it in the end. it was argued that use of a variable to hold the final output string was obfuscation and the code became unmanageable.
07:50:36 <kmc> int main() { printf((char*) 0xGOATSE); }
07:50:45 <zzo38> kmc: Myself too, it is why I wanted to make up the working group for new "Ibtlfmm" programming language, to make these and other features; perhaps we can help
07:50:52 <kmc> what's it stand for?
07:50:54 <pikhq_> shachaf: Oh, blah, sure enough.
07:50:55 <cheater__> kmc: are you able to solve the fizzbuzz problem
07:50:58 <itidus21> pikhq_: ya.. the main problem with it is the function being named add
07:51:06 <zzo38> kmc: I would think that is not a valid C code, it won't compile, isn't it?
07:51:07 <pikhq_> shachaf: Why, that *is* identical to unsafeLaunchTheMissiles.
07:51:13 <cheater__> kmc: it is a very prominent problem in computer science
07:51:39 <kmc> cheater__: you should have given them a solution which uses each of the GoF Design Patterns
07:51:42 <pikhq_> cheater__: If by "computer science" you mean "interviews that seek to eliminate people with truly gross incompetence".
07:51:57 <kmc> if they don't get the joke, walk out immediately
07:52:10 <kmc> if they do get the joke, cockslap them for being smug elitists and walk out
07:52:13 <cheater__> kmc: actually on friday i was considering if you could make a language where Singleton and MVC are the only two basic data structures, and there are some simple operations between them
07:52:18 <cheater__> and if it would be touring-complete
07:52:48 <zzo38> cheater__: Put something on esolang wiki if you have ideas about that
07:53:07 <pikhq_> cheater__: I hope you don't want to work at that place that gave you fizzbuzz.
07:53:18 <kmc> kmc = kmc↑↑↑G
07:53:44 <itidus21> kmc: i started to get a hint of it when i learned that the best assembly language programmers basically know all the side effects of all the instructions
07:53:48 <pikhq_> I mean, really, giving a shit about it beyond "is this person less qualified than the average janitor?"?
07:53:50 <cheater__> no they wanted to pay much below the standard rate
07:53:54 <kmc> asking fizzbuzz does not necessarily indicate that they're idiots
07:54:02 <kmc> but it does indicate that they're casting something of a wide net
07:54:06 <shachaf> kmc: Computable functions are passé.
07:54:20 <itidus21> at which point, i don't really see why assembly language is so valuable
07:54:35 <cheater__> which means you end up being a roast chicken in june and august
07:54:46 <pikhq_> kmc: Fizzbuzz only really tells me that they happen to have idiots coming in asking for jobs.
07:54:52 <kmc> kmc = fix (\i → Σ(i))
07:55:02 <kmc> ok i should have wrote fix Σ
07:55:03 <cheater__> i don't particularly look forward to sitting in a room with four sweating computer programmers
07:55:05 <zzo38> itidus21: But assembly language can be good for program for only a specific computer; for other programs you shouldn't use assembly language
07:55:06 <pikhq_> Well, except they then gave a damn about how it's implemented.
07:55:10 <kmc> haha cheater__
07:55:17 <shachaf> kmc: Too mch time away from #haskell!
07:55:23 <kmc> pikhq_: i think everyone offering a job has some idiots coming in
07:55:26 <kmc> busy beaver function
07:55:27 <kmc> is the one i meant
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07:55:32 <itidus21> perhaps assembly language programs should be specified in terms of the intended side-effects
07:55:44 <itidus21> like .. "i want to swap this flag"
07:55:47 <pikhq_> And fizzbuzz is quite handy for finding those idiots.
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07:55:55 <kmc> i'm not sure they're idiots exactly
07:55:59 <cheater__> they also gave me some other thing
07:56:02 <kmc> they're people trying to scam their way into a job they aren't qualified for
07:56:07 <cheater__> a thousand word text to sort by frequency
07:56:10 <kmc> they might be perfectly intelligent
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07:56:28 <kmc> i imagine a lot of the people caught by fizzbuzz are smarter than average people with useless liberal arts degrees who can't pay rent anymore
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07:56:38 <pikhq_> Damned shame programming ability *isn't* identical to intelligence. :P
07:56:52 <cheater__> i did this in the simplest way possible and the guy gave me shit that i didn't use some sort of hashing algorithm to keep count during a single iteration
07:56:53 <kmc> pikhq_: what do you mean? my ability to write PHP code proves I'm a world-class olympic rockstar genius
07:57:07 <pikhq_> And, given some of the code I've seen, at best only weakly correlated. :/
07:57:10 <kmc> you know you learn a lot about the company in an interview
07:57:17 <kmc> maybe more than they learn about you
07:57:21 <cheater__> and then i told him that it still wouldn't have been perfect and started describing to him the ultimate way of doing it char by char
07:57:31 <itidus21> basically each assembly language instruction seems to be a set of register manipulations not implied by the mnemonic in question
07:57:38 <kmc> shachaf: my eyes, i can see forevenr
07:57:53 <Taneb> If you get asked to do a fizzbuzz program at an interview, do they tell you which one's fizz and which one's buzz?
07:58:11 <cheater__> actually they did "hip" and "hop" on mine
07:58:21 <shachaf> What if they're *both* fizz, man?
07:58:33 <Taneb> Then it would be called fizzfizz
07:58:45 <Taneb> And you'd have to do it in Befunge
07:58:47 <kmc> arguably you get more information because the company interviews more people than the number of places you interview at
07:59:03 <kmc> and so their interview performance is more of a well-worn expression of their identity
07:59:15 <cheater__> i have definitely learned more about them than they about me
07:59:23 <cheater__> it was some privately-owned startup
07:59:42 <cheater__> owned by some aging guy who put his family's savings into it
07:59:59 <kmc> i'm kind of hoping that next time I need to get a job, I can just be like "look at all this stuff i made [url]" and skip the fizzbuzz stuff
08:00:01 <cheater__> ended up buying a lot of stylish furniture for the office
08:00:14 <zzo38> If you program assembly languages codes you should learn the effect of the instructions.
08:00:14 <cheater__> kmc: for bonus points, make the url fizzbuzz
08:00:32 <kmc> i'll be sure to put up a gratuitous implementation of fizzbuzz too
08:00:35 <itidus21> zzo38: but... i don't like the fact that theres no shortcuts
08:00:52 <kmc> like a version in AVR assembly which uses self-modifying code
08:01:14 <itidus21> why can't side-effects be friendly ...
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08:02:25 <kmc> no, a board made with wire wrapped 7400 series DIP quad NAND gates
08:03:03 <cheater__> dip is for pussies, you want to do bga with a toaster
08:03:03 <kmc> i kind of want to build a relay computer
08:03:09 <kmc> i wonder if i can get cheap relays somewhere
08:03:14 <shachaf> kmc: Have you ever been asked actual fizzbuzz-style interview questions?
08:03:25 <shachaf> I think that's mostly a myth.
08:03:31 <kmc> i don't think so
08:03:40 <cheater__> kmc applies for jobs much finer than i
08:04:04 <kmc> the closest i got was "implement fib(n) recursively, then iteratively, and write the time complexity of each"
08:04:16 <kmc> the first part of which is fizzbuzz level
08:05:32 <kmc> at the finance company we had a written programming test which everyone got as the first thing in the day
08:05:38 <kmc> and this was the first question
08:06:16 <cheater__> was it the idea of a Big Swinging Dick
08:06:17 <shachaf> "write this recursively" seems like a strange thing to say, as opposed to "write this".
08:06:32 <kmc> cheater__: Liar's Poker?
08:07:03 <kmc> yeah after i accepted the job, they sent me a copy of that book
08:07:18 <shachaf> "efficiently" is a reasonable constraint, I guess, but "do this recursively and iteratively" seems dangerously close to a game of "guess what I'm thinking".
08:07:20 <cheater__> did they stick "training manual" on the front cover
08:07:52 <kmc> i think the best small companies try to hire through personal connections
08:08:03 <cheater__> no they hire through python.org/jobs
08:08:06 <kmc> so they know everyone coming in can at least pass fizzbuzz
08:08:10 <kmc> this doesn't scale so well
08:08:19 <cheater__> if you think so then you've never relied on friends for doing a job
08:08:39 <kmc> like you hope each person you get expands your network a bit
08:08:58 <kmc> everyone at ksplice has pretty much the same friends and so this didn't really work
08:09:06 <cheater__> they do, but the people working for you are for a reason not the people hiring newcomers
08:09:12 <cheater__> it's because they don't know how to
08:09:15 <kmc> they hired like the entire MIT computing club as interns
08:09:24 <shachaf> It's just a shortcut anyway.
08:09:27 <cheater__> so this guy they'll rave about, he's just as likely to be good as he is to be weak
08:09:47 <shachaf> You don't get more information from it than you would from asking some write-code-which-also-happens-to-be-interesting question, you just get it faster.
08:09:59 <kmc> shachaf: that's true
08:10:08 <cheater__> yeah it works in places with very strong compsci communities
08:10:09 <cheater__> with the usual run of the mill digital carpenters
08:10:39 <kmc> shachaf: actually we moved to an online programming test which they could take before even the phone screen
08:11:09 <kmc> which theoretically saved a lot of time by going asynchronous
08:11:22 <cheater__> in a place where people see computer programming as just a job, they'll be less likely to form connections based on the quality of someone's understanding
08:11:28 <cheater__> the pecking order is decided by other things
08:11:36 <kmc> you can easily cheat on an online test, but it only wastes their time and ours
08:11:53 <cheater__> in a place like a good university everyone will be looking up to the best h5x4rz
08:12:15 <shachaf> kmc: If your plan is to cheat your way through the whole thing somehow, you'll probably start with the online test.
08:12:19 <pikhq_> "Joy of joys" now I'm getting junk SMS
08:12:22 <kmc> hsex is like sex but better because it's in haskell
08:12:28 <kmc> shachaf: true
08:12:39 <pikhq_> Worse, it's phishing junk SMS.
08:12:50 <pikhq_> From shady-ass companies apparently in Panama
08:13:01 <Taneb> pikhq_, at least you can pretend to have friends!
08:13:03 <shachaf> pikhq_: WAL-MART CUSTOMER: U have won a free $100 gift card!
08:13:18 <pikhq_> shachaf: BESTBUY, actually.
08:13:54 <pikhq_> And another one saying "we are giving away free overstock iPad 2's"
08:14:03 <cheater__> it was nice chatting with you all, pikhq_ shachaf and itidus21 and kmc and Taneb and zzo38
08:14:15 <kmc> nice chatting with you cheater__
08:14:24 <cheater__> we should definitely arrange a repeat
08:14:31 <kmc> you know where to find me :)
08:14:58 <kmc> shachaf: Mid-Cambridge, obviously
08:15:29 <shachaf> Nice place, Mid-Cambridge.
08:16:46 <kmc> you could work for Ksploracle
08:16:52 <kmc> or ITAoogle
08:17:06 <shachaf> I thought big companies were evil.
08:17:19 <kmc> or Akamanotboughtbygooglejustyet
08:17:33 <zzo38> Did the company interview ever ask you questions, such as, how much garlic do you put in your tomato sauce?
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08:18:05 <zzo38> And, how many different colors of socks do you own?
08:18:46 <itidus21> all my socks are gray/grey and need to be washed
08:19:14 <shachaf> zzo38: How much garlic do you put in your tomato sauce?
08:19:45 <kmc> shachaf: did I tell you about my idea for a disruptive mobile social local web application platform?
08:19:49 <kmc> it's called SockSwap
08:20:11 <shachaf> kmc: Did you figure out a way to make a non-reverse-engineerable lock yet?
08:20:13 <kmc> you know, everyone has different sorts of socks, sometimes an odd number of one kind
08:20:31 <kmc> so you photograph your sock drawer using our iPhone™ app
08:20:45 <kmc> and it maches you with other people in your area who also have one of that kind of sock
08:21:03 <kmc> which provides a platform for social engagement (coffee, fucking, founding of web startups)
08:21:09 <shachaf> kmc: I saw a Vietnamese soup place called iPho.
08:21:12 <Taneb> All my socks are white with dark blue/black on the heels, toes, and with bands at the top
08:21:15 <shachaf> Except the 'o' was an almost-Apple-logo.
08:21:15 <kmc> shachaf: really?
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08:21:39 <pikhq_> Is it weird that I find it satisfying to report shit like that to the FCC?
08:22:06 <shachaf> Downtown Mountain View has a frozen yogurt shop called "yoogl".
08:22:08 <kmc> not, like USPTO?
08:22:23 <shachaf> It used to have Google-colored-and-fonted letters.
08:22:28 <shachaf> They changed that at one point, though.
08:22:38 <pikhq_> kmc: Junk text messages and cell phone telemarketing.
08:22:48 <shachaf> pikhq_: Can you report mine too?
08:22:50 <kmc> http://s3-media1.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/gVdl2TZJWcDEJj2yvLjAgw/l.jpg
08:22:56 <kmc> pikhq_: oh, I thought you meant iPho
08:23:12 <shachaf> kmc: Yep, that was the logo.
08:23:20 <pikhq_> Complete violation of FCC regulations, and companies that do it and get caught (i.e. reported) get fined obscene amounts.
08:23:22 <kmc> so what other restaurants can be named this way
08:25:25 <zzo38> kmc: How well do you know category theory and other mathematical things?
08:25:36 <kmc> Facebok choy
08:25:39 <kmc> that's pretty weak
08:27:01 <kmc> Kiwikipedia
08:28:03 <kmc> instagram crackers
08:34:13 <zzo38> If I make company, it is private so that nobody can purchase it and then mix it up too much
08:54:06 <zzo38> Do you know how to write a file for Internet Quiz Engine? (The documentation says that certain commands can only be used in certain areas, but this isn't precisely correct. Any command can be used in any area, although they won't necessarily do what you expect.)
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08:59:42 <zzo38> For example, the ? = ; commands are actually all equivalent, except that ? accepts an optional skip condition based on the answer to the previous question, and neither ? nor = will be skipped in a false conditional.
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09:42:27 <kmc> why / how?
09:44:01 <Taneb> Because I'm tired I don't feel like eating, and because I'm hungry I can't sleep
09:48:42 <kmc> that blows
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12:37:12 <kmc> hm, do C++ compilers have a special rule to treat "main" as extern "C"?
12:38:37 <Deewiant> Or to emit a separate main function which calls the C++ main, or whatever.
12:39:02 <Lumpio-> "main" isn't the actual entry point
12:39:15 <olsner> a c++ program starts with c++ main, exactly how that happens is unspecified magic afaik
12:39:25 <kmc> i guess the C++ runtime library could arrange to call a C++ name-mangled main
12:39:28 <Lumpio-> The entry point does initialization and teardown before calling your name()
12:39:32 <kmc> but that's not how g++ does it apparently
12:39:38 <Lumpio-> er, teardown comes after obviously
12:39:56 <Lumpio-> IIRC gcc likes to generate the entry point as _start or something
12:40:06 <Deewiant> That stuff could be added to your main() instead of being in a separate entry point.
12:40:08 <kmc> well gcc doesn't generate _start
12:40:12 <kmc> it's part of the C runtime library
12:41:00 <ais523> kmc: main isn't allowed to be recursive in C++, partly because of this sort of thing
12:41:02 <kmc> C runtime library and/or libc
12:41:06 <kmc> ais523: interesting
12:43:12 <kmc> if main were the entry point, returning from main would not work
12:43:14 <kmc> at least on Linux
12:44:34 <ais523> stack starts out with a 0 on it, and there's an exit instruction at memory location 0, with .com files
12:45:29 <Deewiant> Compilers could emit the appropriate exit code in place of returns from main.
12:45:45 <ais523> Deewiant: another reason to make it not recursive
12:45:47 <kmc> Deewiant: but then you wouldn't be able to call main from elsewhere
12:45:54 <kmc> which is allowed in C?
12:46:00 <ais523> kmc: it is, but not in C++
12:46:01 <kmc> i'm not sure if it's allowed actually
12:46:10 <kmc> i haven't seen it done except in IOCCC entries
12:46:22 <kmc> but i'm sure there is "legitimate" code somewhere that does it
12:46:29 <kmc> probably to re-enter the options parser
12:47:02 <ais523> nah, it'd be really bad style, you should just use a wrapper function for that
12:47:02 <kmc> there is C++ code at google which is like void Foo::reset() { this->~Foo(); new (this) Foo; }
12:47:05 <kmc> so anything's possible
12:47:23 <kmc> ais523: sure, it's really bad style, but I'm sure someone has done it and thought themselves quite clever for it
12:47:42 <ais523> kmc: well, that code is just a bizarre way to call the destructor then constructor, isn't it?
12:48:28 <kmc> i'm no C++ language lawyer but I'm pretty sure it's allowed (maybe not if reset is virtual)
12:48:38 <kmc> however it's bizarre
12:48:49 <kmc> uses a couple of C++ features that many professional C++ programmers don't know about
12:49:01 <ais523> kmc: if reset is virtual and the destructor is not virtual, you'd be asking for trouble
12:49:26 <ais523> and I can only see one rarely known feature there (placement new)
12:49:32 <ais523> what's the other one? calling a destructor manually?
12:49:46 <kmc> i guess even if you aren't aware this can be done, the syntax is what you expect
12:49:48 <ais523> it's just a function, I don't see why you /couldn't/ do that
12:50:05 <ais523> although it's nontrivial to parse, there are larger issues in C++ parsing
12:50:15 <ais523> (did you know that C++ 11 allows you to use >> to close two < brackets?)
12:50:38 <kmc> did you know that there are valid C++03 programs which are still valid under this rule but behave differently?
12:50:40 <Kray> 154702 kmc there is C++ code at google which is like void Foo::reset() { this->~Foo(); new (this) Foo; }
12:50:46 <Kray> no, don't fucking use that
12:51:04 <ais523> kmc: no, that's hilarious; what does it use to hide the > > from the C++11 version?
12:51:34 <kmc> there's an example in http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2005/n1757.html
12:51:40 <kmc> std::cout << (Y<X< 1>>::c >::c>::c) << '\n';
12:52:02 <ais523> also, hmm, the syntax for placement new is really weird, you'd think this->Foo() would be more natural
12:52:17 <kmc> that's kind of weird too
12:52:19 <ais523> because placement new is not the opposite of any sort of delete, it just calls the constructor with an arbitrary pointer
12:52:22 <ais523> perhaps it'd need a cast
12:52:39 <kmc> you're calling a method on something that isn't yet a valid pointer to an object of that type
12:52:46 <kmc> also, you can overload operator new with any argument type you like
12:52:47 <olsner> I wonder if c++ allows mysterious invisible dependencies on this that make destroying this illegal even if you don't use this in the source before reconstructing
12:52:58 <ais523> kmc: if it's not a virtual method, there's clearly no intrinsic problem with that at all
12:53:28 <ais523> if you have a nonvirtual method foo and a variable obj of type Obj, obj->foo(x,y) compiles to Obj::foo(obj,x,y)
12:53:36 <ais523> there's no difference between this and any of the other arguments
12:53:45 <kmc> Pool pool; new (pool) Foo;
12:53:55 <kmc> makes a lot more sense syntactiaclyl than pool->Foo();
12:54:14 <olsner> let's say if your compiler copies all code from the class into constructed objects, and clears out the code when destroying an object
12:54:15 <kmc> ais523: that's an implementation detail, in a sense
12:54:30 <ais523> kmc: right, but it may be one that's implied by the language
12:54:33 <kmc> i agree that usually you can call ((Foo*) 0)->bar() if bar is a non-virtual method
12:54:53 <ais523> like the stack in C (auto variables in C have stack-like semantics, so even if you're not storing them on a stack, you have to store them on something that works like a stack)
12:55:06 <kmc> or you know ((Foo*) malloc(sizeof(Foo)))->bar()
12:55:10 <ais523> does the standard require this to be non-null in a cal?
12:55:21 <kmc> but I don't think that's a reasonable syntax for placement new
12:55:27 <kmc> because it violates expectations
12:55:31 <kmc> but it would be hardly the first C++ feature to do so
12:55:44 <kmc> ais523: don't know
12:55:47 <ais523> kmc: well, to me placement new violates expressions, because I expect new, in some sense, to be the opposite of delete
12:55:53 <ais523> and placement new isn't the opposite of anything
12:55:58 <ais523> *violates expectations
12:56:08 <kmc> you can overload operator delete as well
12:56:22 <ais523> and operator new, can't you?
12:56:24 <kmc> if you're implementing a memory pool, you would do both
12:56:46 <kmc> except nobody knows about this feature or can be bothered to use it
12:56:48 <ais523> only a memory pool for a specific class
12:56:58 <ais523> that's probably not the most common application
12:56:58 <kmc> ais523: no, the overload returns a void*
12:57:14 <ais523> oh, I see, you could overload it outside a class
12:57:22 <kmc> http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/new/memory-pools.html
12:57:42 <ais523> even overloading it within a class makes sense when you're taking an allocator as an argument to the constructor, I guess
12:57:58 <ais523> I've seen an STL that does that (not sure if it was /the/ STL or some third-party one)
12:59:23 <kmc> also some calling conventions pass "this" in a special way
12:59:41 <kmc> the default calling convention in Visual C++ in fact
13:00:31 <kmc> on x86, 'this' is passed in ECX and all other arguments are on the stack
13:00:48 <kmc> i don't know if there's a rationale or if someone at microsoft was just hitting the crackpipe particularly hard that day
13:02:11 <ais523> normally if passing arguments in registers, you have to come up with some complicated rule for deciding what goes where in all possible circumstances
13:02:17 <ais523> "this always goes in ECX" is a pretty simple rule
13:02:22 <kmc> ais523: by "/the/ STL" you mean SGI's reference implementation?
13:02:45 <ais523> kmc: I was referring to APIs, so I mean the API specified by the standard
13:03:07 <ais523> whether or not constructors can take allocators as argument is definitely an API issue
13:03:11 <kmc> STL containers usually take an optional template argument specifying the allocator to use
13:07:35 <kmc> maybe the idea in thiscall is that methods frequently invoke other methods on the same object
13:07:44 <kmc> often without doing much additional work
13:11:58 <kmc> ais523: is there any reason you couldn't store C function activation records in a garbage-collected heap?
13:12:27 <ais523> kmc: no, but it would have to have stack semantics, for determining what copy of the variable to look at
13:12:58 <ais523> there's nothing forcing it to /be/ a stack, it just has to /act like/ a stack
13:13:07 <ais523> which means that it's usable as a stack
13:13:48 <kmc> many things are
13:14:22 <kmc> for determining what copy of the variable to look at, you just have a register that points to the current activation frame
13:14:32 <kmc> and you can CPS transform so that you never need to restore old values of that register
13:14:42 <kmc> doing this for C is probably unreasonable, but is possible
13:15:13 <kmc> i agree this is usable as a stack
13:15:25 <kmc> so is a heap-allocated linked list, or a heap-allocated church-encoded linked list :)
13:18:15 <ais523> I entirely agree that a heap-allocated church-encoded linked list could be used for C auto variables
13:18:22 <ais523> but I would /still/ say that it's a stack
13:18:31 <ais523> it's not a stack implemented in terms of an array, but it's still a stack
13:21:49 <kmc> the other day I saw a bird that looks like a duck and quacks like a duck but isn't a duck
13:23:06 <kmc> i think it was a loon
13:23:49 <itidus21> if you take 2 arbitrary measurements of thing X, and they match type Y, then thing X must be type Y
13:24:21 <olsner> kmc: but how did you know it was not a duck, if it did everything like a duck?
13:24:36 <kmc> because someone who knows more about birds than I told me so
13:24:50 <olsner> you should have asked for more proof
13:24:58 <kmc> it quacks like a duck but not *exactly* like a duck
13:25:05 <kmc> the duck is in the details
13:25:54 <kmc> BBC: 'A "supermoon", bigger and brighter than usual, is seen in the night sky as it comes closer to the Earth'
13:26:08 <kmc> this is a really alarming headline if you assume that scientists have no idea why it happened
13:26:45 <kmc> itidus21: over 9000 feet
13:26:45 <itidus21> as if i wasn't already alarmed by things
13:28:29 <kmc> itidus21++
13:29:08 <kmc> there is no dark side of the moon really
13:29:08 <quintopia> someone remind me the workaround for the /top tab-completion bug in irssi
13:29:12 <kmc> matter of fact it's all dark
13:30:43 <itidus21> in a conspiracy theory lab, in a suburb far far away
13:31:01 <itidus21> plans are made about what the reptiles have dubbed the supermoon
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13:57:20 <nortti> Fuck yeah! Got sasl to work after disabling DH-BLOWFISH
14:03:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastefirtunes: not found
14:04:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14206
14:05:22 <quintopia> i clicked the link and i didnt get any tunes :/
14:05:51 <nortti> quintopia: paste fortunes
14:07:00 <nortti> quintopia: so it takes paste and gives you tunes?
14:09:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20091
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14:16:02 <nortti> quintopia: what kind of daemon is thatd?
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14:21:18 <nortti> I'll give rep+ to the first one to decipher what this piece of python code does (lambda x: (lambda s,(x,y): ([(x[0],y[0])]+s(s,(x[1:],y[1:]))) if len(y)>0 else [])((lambda s,(x,y): ([(x[0],y[0])]+s(s,(x[1:],y[1:]))) if len(y)>0 else []),(x,x[1:])))
14:23:04 <lambdabot> [(1,2),(2,3),(3,4),(4,5),(5,6),(6,7),(7,8),(8,9),(9,10)]
14:23:17 <lambdabot> quicksilver says: zip`ap`tail - the Aztec god of consecutive numbers
14:23:27 <lambdabot> Plugin `dummy' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
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14:25:50 <nortti> Deewiant: is zip`ap`tail builtin in haskell?
14:25:57 <lambdabot> forall a b. [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
14:25:59 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
14:26:35 <Deewiant> The only "builtin" part of that is the syntax, zip`ap`tail means ap zip tail
14:27:33 <Deewiant> (Which means ap(zip,tail) or rather (ap(zip))(tail) in a language with C-style function call syntax.)
14:29:04 <Deewiant> ?ty ap :: (c -> a -> b) -> (c -> a) -> (c -> b) -- the relevant Monad instance expanded
14:29:05 <lambdabot> forall c a b. (c -> a -> b) -> (c -> a) -> c -> b
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15:13:36 <nortti> itidus21: what about my karma
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15:37:06 <elliott> 17:56:37: <AnotherTest> what language would you propose as an alternative?
15:37:06 <elliott> 17:56:44: <ais523> to C++? C
15:37:06 <elliott> 17:57:13: <ais523> well, it really depends on what you're using it for
15:37:07 <elliott> 17:57:14: <AnotherTest> Not really an alternative.
15:37:09 <elliott> 17:57:31: <AnotherTest> since C doesn't even check types
15:37:11 <elliott> 17:57:43: <AnotherTest> and also, it doesn't allow for user defined types
15:38:04 <AnotherTest> I meant user-defined types that have member functions
15:38:25 <nortti> AnotherTest: why is your nick AnotherTest
15:38:43 <elliott> there are minor differences in terms of const, and C++ has a safer version of casting
15:39:01 <AnotherTest> elliott: let's first clarify which version of C we are talking about
15:39:09 <elliott> C89, C99, doesn't matter one bit
15:39:17 <elliott> basically applies to K&R too, if anyone still used it
15:39:19 <Deewiant> elliott: Around a year ago you were going to hack some pty-related stuff into tup, but I'm not getting coloured output from clang, what's up!
15:39:33 <AnotherTest> well, define a type in C that has a member function?
15:39:47 <elliott> struct type_in_c { void (*member_function)(int); };
15:39:49 <Deewiant> elliott: https://groups.google.com/group/tup-users/msg/b303970d79ed6edc
15:40:05 <elliott> Deewiant: Stupid archiving.
15:40:08 <nortti> AnotherTest: I used nick nörtti in ohjelmointiputka.net but when I tried using it on ircnet when I wanted to join #ohjelmointiputka my own irc client crashed
15:40:18 <elliott> Deewiant: I didn't do it, ask tup-users if anything's happened. :p
15:40:30 <nortti> so I used nortti and it just stuck
15:40:42 <elliott> Deewiant: ISTR *something* happening along those lines.
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15:41:41 <elliott> ais523: wat: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BAM128&curid=3491&diff=32356&oldid=30896
15:42:05 <Deewiant> elliott: I can't be bothered to ask, I'm just putting 'CC = clang -fcolor-diagnostics' in my Tupfile
15:42:22 <elliott> Deewiant: Yeah, I think that might have been the solution. Or maybe I'm thinking of ninja.
15:42:35 <ais523> elliott: looks like a test edit, more than anything else
15:42:41 <ais523> or someone who doesn't understand English and thinks they do
15:42:59 <elliott> I was going to revert it with a meaningful edit summary, but I suppose that works too :p
15:43:13 <elliott> I'm pretty sure it's someone trying to fix the grammar, except they're not any good at it
15:43:15 <Deewiant> elliott: It happened in ninja, at least (its bug report is the top Google result I've run into a couple of times now when wondering whether tup does it)
15:43:28 <AnotherTest> elliott: I just noticed the edition, found I a little weird
15:43:46 <elliott> Deewiant: I dunno. I'd stick with tup.
15:43:52 <elliott> Deewiant: With ninja, you need to write a script to generate your build script.
15:44:03 <elliott> Usually in Python, since they have an outputting library for it.
15:44:21 <elliott> It's kind of yucky. Good for things like Chrome where you need MAXIMUM SPEED and the build rules don't change often, since that's what it was designed for.
15:44:23 <Deewiant> elliott: I asked you because you're the "DO THE ARROWS GO UPWARDS" guy when it comes to build systems
15:44:32 <elliott> Deewiant: ninja's arrows do go upwards, though, yes.
15:44:43 <elliott> And ninja supports multiple output files, which is what got me interested in it in the first place (for Haskell).
15:45:20 <elliott> Deewiant: I'd just stick with tup though. Especially since variants are coming.
15:45:30 <AnotherTest> What's the most minimal programming language existing?
15:45:40 <AnotherTest> (as in minimal typing to do a certain task)
15:45:58 <elliott> AnotherTest: That is not really a meaningful question.
15:46:25 <nortti> wtf? MIT Scheme says (eval '(+ 1 1)) is invalid
15:46:36 <elliott> You need to pass an environment too.
15:46:46 <ais523> elliott: if I find a website that puts an <em> in an URL and later omits a _ from the same URL, what should I assume? broken parser for a Markdown-like language?
15:46:54 <ais523> (the <em> was replacing a _)
15:47:04 <nortti> elliott: repl.it didn't require that
15:47:09 <elliott> nortti: Then repl.it is broken.
15:47:17 <Deewiant> elliott: That reminds me: re. variants, the thread on them currently ends with Mike asking for your thoughts.
15:47:18 <elliott> Or, rather, has some implementation-specific extension.
15:47:31 <elliott> Deewiant: Yes, I have that email set as unread so I can reply to it.
15:47:39 <elliott> AnotherTest: Because "a given task" is pretty vague.
15:47:45 <Deewiant> elliott: Alright, just checking.
15:47:57 <elliott> (I wrote that before your parenthical; I interpreted "minimal" very differently beforehand, which kinda proved my point :P)
15:48:06 <elliott> Deewiant: I guess I'll do it now, since you've prodded me.
15:48:18 <elliott> I also need to reply to Conor McBride :(
15:49:20 <Deewiant> If you'd e-mail less, you'd have to reply less.
15:49:41 <AnotherTest> which language allows the shortest implementation for an algorithm that solves the traveling-salesmen problem using a brute-fore approach without it being a built-in feature?
15:50:00 <elliott> Deewiant: Anyway, that's not strictly true.
15:50:15 <elliott> AnotherTest: Define "built-in feature"... I could split the algorithm into two parts and give those one instruction each.
15:50:49 <Deewiant> He probably means "existing language".
15:50:49 <AnotherTest> existing language anyway, I doubt any language has such a feature so just drop that last part
15:51:14 <elliott> Deewiant: That question is still probably impossible to answer, since you don't know what the shortest program for the task in any given language is.
15:51:28 <elliott> AnotherTest: It is not possible to answer.
15:51:40 <elliott> AnotherTest: Very well, you answer it then.
15:51:56 <elliott> I see you're still suffering from Dunning-Kruger.
15:51:57 <AnotherTest> I ask the question; it is thus only logical that I do not know the answer
15:52:18 <Deewiant> Of course it's possible, just prove a minimum length in each language and then enumerate all programs up to that length.
15:52:31 <Deewiant> (Okay, maybe the proof isn't so easy.)
15:52:46 <AnotherTest> let's not start about the physics guy who wasn't a physics guy again
15:52:47 <elliott> Deewiant: FSVO enumerate that involves a human-written proof at each step.
15:53:00 <AnotherTest> because it's still clear that you suffer autism
15:53:27 <Deewiant> elliott: Not at each step, only for each language.
15:54:09 <ais523> AnotherTest: please don't insult people like that
15:54:27 <elliott> (If you really did try, you'd apologise afterwards.)
15:54:44 <AnotherTest> Well, no, because you sort of insulted me to
15:54:55 <AnotherTest> you seem to make a habit of that every time I visit
15:55:04 <elliott> You've only been here twice.
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15:56:05 <ais523> "The judge and attorneys have to question the child to determine the communication skills of the child and also question to determine if the child understands the difference between true and false, and will tell the truth."
15:56:17 <ais523> why don't they do that with /adults/?
15:56:32 <AnotherTest> Because the judge and attorneys are adults.
15:57:34 <ais523> that's about witnesses
15:57:47 <ais523> I guess they get them to swear oaths, but I'm not sure everyone has respect for oaths
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15:58:20 <elliott> Bye ais523. Hi ais523. Bye ais523. Hi ais523.
15:58:25 <ais523> OK, Unity has increased Konversation's capacity for bizarre typos quite a bit
15:58:41 <ais523> both in opportunities, and bizarreness
15:59:08 <ais523> that was alt-nothing r, rather than alt-t r
15:59:23 <ais523> I actually rather like unity, but some of the keybindings are unfortunate
15:59:35 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if I can change them?
15:59:50 <AnotherTest> It's possible to pick a custom keyboard layout I think
15:59:59 <nortti> I dislike unity. All the bloat and inteface is horrible
16:00:19 <AnotherTest> I agree with nortti, my computer can't handle it properly
16:00:43 <ais523> now I have super-space rather than just super, and alt-super-space rather than just alt
16:00:52 <ais523> should have done that earlier
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16:01:15 <nortti> AnotherTest: do you know my computer's specs?
16:01:19 <ais523> nortti: unity, bloated? that doesn't fit my view of it
16:01:25 <ais523> it seems more primitive than bloated
16:01:44 <ais523> although I consider bloat a statement about features rather than load
16:01:53 <ais523> if it's putting too much load on a system, that's simply a bug
16:01:57 <AnotherTest> ais523: really, with the menu that constantly flops in and out?
16:02:07 <nortti> AnotherTest: Thinkpad T20 with 700MHz Pentium III and 64MB of RAM
16:02:57 <ais523> AnotherTest: that's no longer the default optoin
16:03:03 <ais523> I just have it up constantly
16:03:11 <AnotherTest> well at least they made a good choice there
16:03:15 <nortti> ais523: define too much load. Using that logic almost all new software is filled with bugs :p
16:03:28 <nortti> (on my system at least)
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16:04:13 <AnotherTest> nortti: I'm on an Intel Pentium 4 CPU 2.53GHz with 1002.4MiB RAM
16:04:36 <ais523> nortti: substantially more than would be reasonably expected for what the software actually does
16:05:20 <elliott> ais523: That doesn't work if you have unreasonable expectations.
16:05:23 <nortti> AnotherTest: try lubuntu
16:05:43 <AnotherTest> nortti: I might, also, xubuntu; is that notable?
16:05:54 <ais523> AnotherTest: only 1G? although that should be easily enough for almost anything, sadly programs rarely assume that any more
16:05:58 <nortti> AnotherTest: almost as slow as ubuntu
16:06:04 <ais523> also, 1002.4 is not 1024, that's an interesting decision…
16:06:30 <ais523> AnotherTest: no, 1 GiB = 1024 MiB
16:06:34 <elliott> Gio, if you want to be pedantic.
16:06:59 <ais523> even one megabel is enough sound intensity to destroy the Earth
16:07:12 <ais523> probably even one kilobel, come to think of it
16:07:17 <elliott> ais523: It's not really "sadly". There's no point devoting time and effort to minimising memory footprint if everybody has more. With that kind of argument, everyone should code like we're using Altair 8800s.
16:07:36 <Deewiant> (Where "o" is an abbreviation for "octet" I think I invented and almost nobody will understand, so be careful about where you use it.)
16:07:39 <ais523> elliott: well, programs still take a noticeable amount of time to load and execute
16:07:47 <ais523> Deewiant: I've seen it elsewhere
16:07:56 <elliott> Deewiant: It's useful for pedantry and also arguing with pedants!
16:08:06 <elliott> ais523: That's mostly unrelated to RAM.
16:08:09 <Deewiant> elliott: Sure, but not for much else. :-)
16:08:11 <elliott> ais523: Disk is a huge factor in that.
16:08:29 <elliott> If you get an SSD you'll notice everything go noticeably faster; if you run from a RAMdisk, even faster.
16:08:33 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how long it takes to fill a 1GiB array with consecutive integers?
16:08:53 <elliott> ais523: Faster if you use SSE ;)
16:08:59 <ais523> can't check, only have 927MB free
16:09:02 <elliott> He's the filling-big-arrays-unreasonably-fast guy.
16:09:08 <nortti> elliott: well even I assume that my system has at least 2MB of RAM and I try to minimize memory footprint
16:09:16 <Deewiant> ais523: elliott picked it up from my web site and may have spread it around, at least.
16:09:22 <ais523> Vorpal: do you know how long it takes to fill a 1GiB array with consecutive integers?
16:09:26 <elliott> Deewiant: But I have seen it elsewhere too, I think.
16:09:42 <Deewiant> elliott: Well, you've used it here at least a couple of times, which kinda counts.
16:09:52 <elliott> #esoteric is the terminology propagation centre of the world.
16:10:41 <elliott> Depends on your definition of "up-to-date".
16:10:43 <ais523> elliott: a quick websearch implies that both "Mio" and "mebioctet" are in Christian Biere's signature
16:10:56 <elliott> cpressey doesn't like it and recommends something else instead.
16:11:23 <nortti> AnotherTest: I'd say so
16:11:30 <elliott> ais523: Who's Christian Biere?
16:11:39 <ais523> elliott: I have no idea
16:11:39 <elliott> <ais523> someone who has both "Mio" and "mebioctet" in their signature
16:11:40 <nortti> AnotherTest: At least from what I have heard
16:11:48 <elliott> AnotherTest: You misspelled 2012-05-06.
16:11:51 <ais523> I did try finding out, but apparently they're just some random person
16:12:18 <nortti> actually it is 6.5.2012
16:12:26 <AnotherTest> I don't think the English language prescribes a correct notation for dates
16:12:49 <elliott> ISO does! I think they need a militia to enforce their standards.
16:13:35 <AnotherTest> ah ISO, they'd better bother with Javascript
16:14:03 <nortti> elliott: is ISO standard yyyy-mm-dd?
16:14:19 <elliott> Yes. (It's more involved than that, but yes.)
16:14:35 <elliott> Actually it's not quite perfect, since the full yyyy-mm-ddThh:mm:ss format is ugly because of the T.
16:14:36 <ais523> yyyy-mm-ddThh:mm:ss then a letter for the timezone, typically Z for UTC
16:14:43 <elliott> ais523: It's more involved than that.
16:15:01 <AnotherTest> because it's assuming the culture of everyone has the Christian religion
16:15:10 <elliott> What is discrimination, exactly?
16:15:16 <ais523> AnotherTest: people mostly use the Gregorian date system whether Christian or not
16:15:38 <ais523> wow, ddate isn't in the coreutils package any more
16:15:47 <ais523> or even in the repositories, under that name at least
16:15:52 <elliott> (Hey, those are both words.)
16:16:16 <olsner> AnotherTest: rolling with a t in front of it
16:16:18 <Deewiant> ais523: Can you find a reference older than 2009-07-05?
16:16:20 <ais523> or in the repositories under any name
16:16:34 <ais523> AnotherTest: the gerund form of "roll"
16:16:39 <elliott> AnotherTest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it
16:16:52 <ais523> alternatively, present participle of "roll"
16:17:20 <ais523> AnotherTest: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/roll#Verb
16:17:36 <AnotherTest> ais523: thanks, that's what I call some definiton
16:17:42 <ais523> although I didn't realize it had 27 different meanings
16:17:54 <elliott> 27. (transitive) This word needs a definition. Please help out and add a definition, then remove the text {{rfdef}}. [quotations ▼]
16:18:29 <ais523> AnotherTest: you probably have enough information to find out yourself
16:18:33 <ais523> perhaps you even know the answer already!
16:18:44 <AnotherTest> Yes, but how can that information be trusted?
16:19:04 <AnotherTest> suppose the defintion of defintion would be wrong?
16:19:24 <ais523> AnotherTest: eventually, sooner or later, you have to trust something or someone
16:19:27 <AnotherTest> Because then the definition of wrong would be wrong :(.
16:20:02 <ais523> elliott: if a dictionary did misdefine "wrong", that would indeed be ironic
16:20:03 <elliott> probably nothing is ironic, considering how much people say isn't
16:20:09 <ais523> assuming it was done by mistake
16:20:16 <elliott> ais523: yes, but if the definition of wrong is itself wrong, not as a mistake done by a dictionary, would that be ironic?
16:20:40 <ais523> elliott: I'm not even sure the concept of wrongness makes sense wrt definitions in natural languages
16:20:47 <AnotherTest> since then the definition of ironic would be wrong
16:21:00 <elliott> Well, I think this explains the Alanis Morissette song.
16:21:05 <ais523> in computer languages, it's possible to have an objectively wrong definition, though (such as one that's incompatible with the desired semantics)
16:21:19 <ais523> elliott: it's genuinely ironic that the song is meant to be about irony and yet doesn't know what irony is
16:21:28 <elliott> The *song* doesn't know what irony is?
16:21:35 <elliott> Well, I suppose it doesn't.
16:21:52 <AnotherTest> ais523: yes, but the semantics parser will still give an error
16:21:57 <ais523> err, that the existence of those lyrics of the song imply that their author doesn't know what irony is
16:22:07 <ais523> AnotherTest: you don't know what you're talking about
16:22:07 <AnotherTest> ais523: and the language does not consists of only a syntax parser
16:22:58 <ais523> you're using the lies-to-first-years definition of "semantics", rather than the mathematical definition
16:23:27 <ais523> elliott: by analogy with lies-to-children
16:23:30 <elliott> ais523: I know, it's amusing
16:23:51 <ais523> I actually saw that lie made a few months ago
16:24:08 <ais523> AnotherTest: do people seriously teach children compiler design?
16:24:36 <ais523> agreed, I think; now I'm wondering if I could have written a compiler before I turned 18
16:24:57 <ais523> I'd need to have thought of doing so, for one thing; I definitely could have learnt
16:25:03 <nortti> AnotherTest: if you are interested in compiler development I would recommend reading crenshaw's Let's build a compiler
16:25:03 <AnotherTest> I doubt you wouldn't be able to if if you could
16:25:21 <ais523> oh, of course I could, I read a book on compiler design before then
16:25:29 <ais523> and later cited it in my Masters' project
16:25:58 <ais523> hmm, fun YouTube regression: the Pause button no longer changes to a Replay icon when the video ends (but clicking on it replays the video anyway)
16:26:17 <AnotherTest> nortti: books, books, books! I'll first finish the books I'm currently reading; but thanks for the tip
16:26:47 <nortti> AnotherTest: atually Let's build a compiler is a article series
16:27:35 <nortti> ais523: It just occured to me that I haven't used youtube's own player to play youtube videos for a year
16:28:06 <ais523> nortti: do you download them, violating the TOS, then play them in some other player? Or use a streaming player?
16:28:38 * ais523 notes that streaming and downloading look identical from the server's point of view, and mostly from the client's too, so it's weird that the distinction is made
16:29:06 <nortti> ais523: youtube-dl (download) currently, mactubes/youview (streaming) on my iBook
16:30:12 <nortti> AnotherTest: it teaches how to build simple compiler on Pascal under SK*DOS compiling to m68k assembly
16:30:39 <ais523> AnotherTest: meh, it's just a simplified algol 68
16:30:47 <olsner> hmm, looks like the tailor of panama has the opening titles set in comic sans
16:30:59 <nortti> AnotherTest: I translated code to python even thought I don't really know pascal either
16:31:35 <AnotherTest> nortti: but I think you always make big mistakes if you don't really understand a language; you just don't notice it
16:32:26 <AnotherTest> I'm just going to read the dragon book, I think that should be as well as those articles?
16:33:04 <nortti> AnotherTest: pascal code used there is very easily readable without much pascal knowledge and I always sanity checked all my modifications and the seemed to work. Also I think that there is a forth version of Let's build a compiler
16:33:44 <nortti> AnotherTest: dragon book is bit harder to learn from because it covers more
16:34:57 <elliott> everyone knows that an intent to teach always translates to being easy to be taught by
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16:37:02 <AnotherTest> elliott: how can you be sure everyone does?
16:37:42 <ais523> AnotherTest: this sort of needless pedantry really doesn't add much to the conversation, save it for compilers
16:38:34 <nortti> (define everyone '(everyone who knows that an intent to teach always translates to being easy to be taught by))
16:38:49 <AnotherTest> ais523: again, I'm just fooling with elliott's urge to define things
16:39:02 <ais523> AnotherTest: yes, and it is not a useful thing to do
16:39:04 <elliott> s/ooling/rolling/. Wait...
16:39:21 <ais523> conversations go much faster if you're not throwing in pointless trolling every few lines
16:39:37 <ais523> AnotherTest: is this some sort of Internet version of Tourette's?
16:39:45 <ais523> or is it that you actually /can/ help it
16:39:47 <ais523> and just don't want to?
16:39:47 <elliott> people who can't help but troll should avoid IRC
16:40:18 <AnotherTest> ais523: I can't help to because elliott insulted me more than once
16:40:41 <ais523> AnotherTest: this is a pretty bad explanation
16:40:47 <AnotherTest> and because I'm trying to make him stop with the definition thing
16:40:53 <ais523> do you know what a "mutual recrimination cycle" is?
16:41:11 <elliott> I did "the definition thing" once to try and help you find an answer to your extremely vague question.
16:41:16 <ais523> it's when one person does something to annoy someone else, and they respond in kind (or worse), and the first person responds in kind (or worse)
16:41:19 <ais523> and it gets out of hand
16:41:42 <ais523> if you're going to respond to someone annoying you, try to do so in a less bad way than the original, not a similar or worse way
16:41:53 <ais523> not only does it prevent it getting out of hand, it also lets you take the moral high ground and go around being smug
16:43:25 <AnotherTest> but tbh, elliott, you did it more than once; but let's not continue the viscous circle
16:43:44 <elliott> I assure you, the circle will be as solid as they come.
16:45:14 <ais523> elliott: solidity is a state of maximum viscosity
16:45:46 <ais523> AnotherTest: kareha on esoteric.voxelperfect.net was disabled because nobody used it, and I have no idea what's happened to esoteric.sange.fi
16:45:56 <elliott> Graue shut the forum down when I took over the wiki since it got tons of spam and nobody used it.
16:45:57 <ais523> but alt.lang.intercal still exists, even though nobody posts there
16:45:58 <elliott> But I have an archive at http://esolangs.org/forum/.
16:46:45 <AnotherTest> doesn't sound like an esoteric programming language :p
16:46:45 <elliott> "Nice.. but the idea is difficult to understand. Life is much more hard to live than you can imagine.."
16:51:39 <nortti> Gun Holsters That Shoot You in the Leg, A Flammable Fire Extinguisher, Hand Sanitizer That Adds Bacteria to Your Skin, The Laundry Detergent That Shreds Clothes, The Flashlight That Can Stop Your Heart
16:52:48 <elliott> This is still the best spam thread from the forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1302671493/l50
16:53:04 <nortti> elliott: http://www.cracked.com/article_19805_the-5-most-baffling-product-recalls-all-time.html
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16:55:29 <AnotherTest> (and I'll try to be specific elliott, but I might fail)
16:56:44 <AnotherTest> the type-system works "top-down"; with that I mean that you evaluate an expression to a given type (rather than to an unknown type and then check it with the given type)
16:56:48 <Deewiant> You don't have to press enter before finishing your sentence, you know.
16:57:20 <elliott> Deewiant: Hey, I do it. :p
16:57:26 <elliott> (Admittedly I type really fast.)
16:57:37 <AnotherTest> anyway so Real r = 5 + 5; would be Real r = Real(5) + Real(5);
16:57:46 <elliott> AnotherTest: Haskell does that with typeclass overloading.
16:57:47 <nortti> I only do it accidentaly
16:57:54 <elliott> Assuming I understand what you mean.
16:58:06 <AnotherTest> rather than Real r = Int(5) + Int(5); (assuming 5 is an integer literal)
16:58:13 <elliott> (5 + 5 :: Real) is really (fromInteger (5 :: Integer) + fromInteger (5 :: Integer) :: Real) under the hood.
16:58:27 <elliott> And you can make overloaded values whose result depends on the type you use them as.
16:58:41 <AnotherTest> but I meant, that, does a language exists where that isn't the case?
16:58:56 <elliott> Well, I interpret that as "top-down" by your definition.
16:59:06 <elliott> (Note that the "typeclass overloading" is not related to OOP classes, and is something OOP can't do.)
16:59:33 <elliott> Many languages separate evaluation from type-checking, anyway.
16:59:38 <AnotherTest> and is there a language where the whole type system is done like this?
17:00:04 <AnotherTest> Because I actually find that this isn't that bad
17:01:15 <elliott> I'm still not sure what the top-down approach constitutes. How does type-checking differ for such a language?
17:01:25 <ais523> AnotherTest: Perl's type system works like that
17:01:31 <ais523> although it only has two types, list and scalar
17:01:57 <ais523> instead of the type of an expression being based on the expression, it's based entirely on the context
17:02:04 <AnotherTest> elliott: it differs fundamentally, the idea is sort of the reverse of the normal one
17:02:11 <elliott> 17:58 <elliott> (5 + 5 :: Real) is really (fromInteger (5 :: Integer) + fromInteger (5 :: Integer) :: Real) under the hood.
17:02:16 <ais523> and quite a lot of things behave differently in list and scalar context
17:02:16 <elliott> I mean that the former is what you actually type.
17:02:19 <AnotherTest> ais523: really? I need to look into perl more
17:02:24 <elliott> myTest :: String ==> "abc"
17:02:31 <elliott> (Where (a :: b) means "a with type b".)
17:02:38 <elliott> Which sounds like what you're looking for.
17:02:50 <ais523> elliott: is ==> the actual syntax for that?
17:02:58 <elliott> ais523: that's metasyntax for evaluation
17:05:25 <elliott> AnotherTest: Anyway, the key thing that makes that work is the ability to overload only on return value.
17:05:38 <elliott> Erm, that's badly-phrased, but whatever.
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17:29:52 <AnotherTest> elliott: overloading based on return type, indeed, that was partially why I was was interested in this approach
17:30:32 <elliott> Haskell uses that quite extensively
17:30:32 <AnotherTest> besides that, it would also solve the typical C++ string literal problem where std::string a = "A" + "B"; is illegal
17:32:06 <AnotherTest> I think(and might be totally wrong) that maybe types should be separated from their literals
17:32:46 <Deewiant> Haskell does that for numeric literals, and with an extension for string literals as well.
17:33:11 <AnotherTest> but I'm scared by people saying that it's horrible
17:33:31 <AnotherTest> but I guess there are always people who say that something's horrible
17:34:02 <elliott> Are the people saying it's horrible C++ programmers? :P
17:34:03 <Deewiant> "There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses." -- Bjarne Stroustrup
17:34:18 <Deewiant> (Bonus: he's a C++ programmer. Well, the C++ programmer.)
17:34:28 <AnotherTest> knew that one, it's in The C++ Programming language
17:35:41 <elliott> AnotherTest: http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/ is the best Haskell book, FWIW. (Avoid Real World Haskell, it's outdated and goes too fast.) If you don't like LYAH, get a copy of http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~gmh/book.html; I haven't read it, but have received glowing recommendations for it.
17:36:05 <Deewiant> How is RWH outdated where LYAH isn't?
17:36:19 <nortti> what haskell implementation should I use?
17:36:37 <elliott> The others are either really outdated or not really prime-time-ready.
17:36:37 <Deewiant> For most practical purposes, there is no other Haskell implementation.
17:36:55 <elliott> UHC is useful for some specialised purposes (compiling to JavaScript), jhc is of interest but not really practical yet.
17:37:02 <elliott> More or less everything else is dead.
17:37:24 <elliott> Deewiant: Also it recommends ByteString for text, because a certain one of the authors hadn't written Text yet ;)
17:37:44 <elliott> Both LYAH and RWH have the mtl 1 vs. mtl 2 problem, but that's just changing the capitalisation of one letter to fix, so...
17:37:46 <Deewiant> Well, ByteString still has its uses.
17:37:52 <elliott> Deewiant: No, it was for Unicode (IIRC) text.
17:38:03 <nortti> oh for the love of the $DEITY! Do I have to compile a compiler with this machine?
17:38:09 <elliott> nortti: You can't, GHC depends on GHC.
17:38:16 <elliott> The Linux binary is good, and can be installed to any prefix.
17:38:34 <elliott> Just use it, GHC takes about 2 hours to compile on a fast machine even if you had an existing binary lying around.
17:39:14 <nortti> elliott: good. Usually it is source compile when package is not on slitaz's repo
17:39:35 <elliott> nortti: Note: Install 7.0.4, not 7.4.1.
17:39:49 <elliott> Not every package builds with 7.4.1 yet and the Platform uses 7.0.4.
17:39:55 -!- jfischoff has joined.
17:40:09 <elliott> (After you have GHC installed, you'll probably want to install the source package from http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/linux.html.)
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17:45:39 <AnotherTest> I suppose lamda knowledge is useful in Haskell?
17:46:10 <elliott> Depends what you mean by lambda :P
17:46:25 <elliott> Haskell corresponds to an extended version of a certain lambda calculus (not /the/ lambda calculus), but you don't need any background in it to start reading LYAH.
17:46:34 <elliott> Nah, I knew that, it's just that there's a bunch of them.
17:46:41 <elliott> (Sure, Haskell uses anonymous functions, but even C++ has those nowadays.)
17:46:59 <AnotherTest> yes, but I meant more /the/ lambda calculus
17:47:14 <AnotherTest> because I don't really consider closures to be the whole lambda calculus
17:47:35 <AnotherTest> no, short-sighted is a better word I think
17:47:42 <elliott> Well, that's all the lambda calculus is, really; closures plus application.
17:47:49 <nortti> what other lambda calculi there are than /the/ lambda calculus?
17:48:00 <elliott> nortti: /The/ lambda calculus usually means the untyped lambda calculus.
17:48:25 <elliott> There's various typed lambda calculi, including the simply typed lambda calculus, members of the lambda cube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_cube), etc.
17:48:37 <nortti> elliott: ah. Doesn't haskell implement untyped lambda calculus?
17:48:55 <AnotherTest> elliott: read about that in the introduction I read
17:49:10 <elliott> Haskell is Hindley-Milner plus typeclasses.
17:49:24 <elliott> (Okay, s/Hindley-Milner/the lambda calculus which Hindley-Milner checks and infers typs for/.)
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17:50:27 <Deewiant> (And s/Hindley/Damas/g just to be different.)
17:53:23 <elliott> Deewiant: Have you played brogue? Is quaff-iding potions a good idea in brogue? (I picked you because you're the last person to talk and also Finnish.)
17:53:44 <elliott> Damn. What about the second question?
17:54:02 <ais523> elliott: I've seen a Let's Play of brogue that says that most items can be use-IDed safely with appropriate precautions
17:54:05 <ais523> like not doing it in combat, etc
17:54:05 <Deewiant> Based on experience in other roguelikes I'd guess "no".
17:54:20 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure if this implies that some can't be
17:54:25 <elliott> Deewiant: You should play brogue, it's really pretty.
17:54:29 <ais523> but the person in the game quaff-IDed a potion of descent
17:54:34 <ais523> which was inconvenient but not really fatal
17:54:52 <Deewiant> Or "no, unless you're powerful enough that you know you can't easily be instantly killed".
17:55:13 <Deewiant> "pretty" isn't a good reason to play a roguelike.
17:55:30 <ion> Exactly what does the potion of descent do? Teleport you to lower levels?
17:55:33 <elliott> Deewiant: No, I mean, *really* pretty: http://ompldr.org/vZG1ueg
17:56:54 <ais523> ion: takes out the ground beneath anyone who drinks it (or just destroys the ground directly if it breaks on it)
17:57:07 <ais523> which causes the drinker, or anyone you throw it at, to fall to the level below
17:57:07 <elliott> ais523: THANKS FOR THE ADVICE http://ompldr.org/vZG45Mg
17:57:12 <elliott> At least the fire, too, is really pretty.
17:57:38 <ais523> elliott: well you didn't die, did you?
17:58:04 <ais523> and you're only two squares from walking out of the fire
17:58:10 <elliott> ais523: No, the fire was *on* me.
17:58:16 <ais523> but to be fair, that was worth it just for "Your monkey catches fire!"
17:58:17 <elliott> i.e. it followed me around.
17:58:27 <elliott> Well, I'm almost dead, but I'm not on fire any more, and I'm still levitating.
17:59:04 <elliott> Cool, I'm hovering over a pool of my own blood.
17:59:38 <AnotherTest> why o why jQuery, does thou not do as I say?(or I'm just doing it wrong :()
18:01:59 <ais523> AnotherTest: jQuery? that second boss is hard as hell
18:03:03 <AnotherTest> jQuery, the (over-)popular JavaScript library(assuming you're asking about what it is)
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18:16:45 <zzo38> In my opinion you cannot really understand monad and other things from LYAH, and there are other things too like that; I find reading Haskell 2010 report also helps understanding syntax and so on a bit better but even that won't help completely; you have to learn it by yourself
18:17:08 <HackEgo> nikolos: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
18:17:24 <HackEgo> nikolos: This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
18:17:50 <ais523> elliott: was that a guess?
18:18:55 <zzo38> Yes bots are slow so try harder
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18:22:09 <zzo38> I have fortune file too. I have added two of the pasted ones
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18:31:53 <zzo38> Just a few seconds ago I have corrected Internet Quiz Engine so that a ? block may contain multiple ! conditions without damaging the answer numbers.
18:32:41 <zzo38> (It will now pay attention to skipped : instructions when numbering the answers so that when skipping a question that has already been answered, it knows which one it is.)
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18:50:54 <nortti> http://farm1.staticflickr.com/31/103658637_bc9b5c88fa_z.jpg lol :D Do some people really think like that?
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18:51:50 <Ngevd> I'm feeling a lot better now
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18:53:12 <monqy> elliott: did you hear: i forked crawl. bad idea. now i won't be able to get any work done :'(
18:53:22 <elliott> monqy: i didn't hear when did this happen
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18:53:32 <elliott> and what's it called and what's changed so far
18:53:44 <elliott> that's way worse than qrawl
18:53:53 <monqy> it's what gitorious called it
18:53:57 <monqy> i just went with the flow
18:54:18 <elliott> btw, convince ais523 that nethack's id game is boring
18:54:18 <monqy> i havent comited anything im just playing around by myself right now :'(
18:54:37 <monqy> oh right i created it because i wanted to see what crawl would be like without randomization in combat and then i made all levels 24x24
18:54:54 <monqy> next up I'm removing healing over time, removing food, removing identification
18:55:11 <ais523> elliott: it probably needs full spoiling to be interesting, probably item ID techniques should be spoiled
18:55:17 <monqy> 24x24 is a bit too big for nolos
18:55:36 <elliott> monqy: why not just make levels the size of the default viewport
18:55:41 <elliott> maybe that's a bit too small
18:55:45 <monqy> that's what i did originally but yeah
18:55:52 <monqy> levels ended up having like no features
18:55:55 <elliott> you could make levels bigger to compensate but
18:55:58 <monqy> i could have mucked with levelgen but ehhh
18:56:01 <elliott> *make there be more levels to compensate
18:56:12 <monqy> oh right also next up i'm removing upstairs
18:56:21 <elliott> i don't like games without upstairs
18:56:37 <monqy> and scaling ood rate up
18:56:49 <elliott> monqy: why remove upstairs, out of curiosity?
18:57:14 <ais523> elliott: because optimal stashing play in Crawl is really boring
18:57:22 <monqy> i don't like stairdancing or stashing or anything like that that, which upstairs allow
18:57:25 <ais523> that is one reasonable fix for that, I've actually suggested it to Crawl's devteam
18:57:30 <elliott> ais523: I'm asking for his opinion so I can suggest alternative solutions
18:57:39 <monqy> and with healing over time removed you can't go upstairs to heal
18:57:40 <elliott> that don't remove upstairs, because I like upstairs
18:57:57 <elliott> monqy: with stashing, you could just make some common monsters pick up items they can't use
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18:58:11 <elliott> hmm, I guess levels don't run when you're not on them
18:58:25 <monqy> there's code to destroy off-level items
18:58:32 <ais523> elliott: the other solution to stashing is to have a bag of holding that takes a lot of time to access so you can't do it in combat
18:58:42 <elliott> monqy: for stairdancing, I have a decent idea for fixing that, but you sound like you've already made up your mind, so
18:58:47 <ais523> but Crawl's devteam is vetoing containers with contents in the name of keeping the game simple (!)
18:59:11 <elliott> i agree w/ adding a bag of holding
18:59:12 <Ngevd> How hard could it be to write a roguelike?
18:59:26 <elliott> they avoid many of the typical gamedev issues
18:59:32 <elliott> balancing a roguelike, OTOH...
18:59:38 <elliott> monqy: (but if you're not then I'll tell you)
18:59:41 <Ngevd> How hard could it be to write a roguelike for someone with minimal video game programming experience?
19:00:01 <elliott> monqy: if a monster is trying to fight you (i.e. not wandering), and you go upstairs, then it'll "follow you"
19:00:03 <monqy> it'd be simpler for me to leave staircases than remove them, and when i make my very own roguelike i just won't have them
19:00:08 <calamari> Ngevd: this is a guide to writing roguelikes, did you already see it?
19:00:12 <elliott> read: after N turns (how long it'd take for it to get to the upstairs), it appears on the downstairs
19:00:18 <Ngevd> calamari, no I did not
19:00:28 <elliott> monqy: (then do the same for compansions and you can also remove the radius thing)
19:00:47 <elliott> the fact that things one away from you teleport up the stairs with you
19:01:18 <zzo38> Does your game have PC/NPC unification (if applicable)? Does it have multiple stairs? Macros? Discouragement of wasting time (including fighting a lot of the same kind of creature)?
19:01:21 <calamari> Ngevd: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php/How_to_Write_a_Roguelike_in_15_Steps
19:01:35 <elliott> monqy: maybe i should look at crawl's code
19:02:06 <elliott> monqy: it's not fun i'm looking for it's revenge
19:02:09 <monqy> why do you like upstairs, out of curiosity?
19:02:28 <elliott> one "realism" i.e. i just don't like the idea of staircases disappearing once you go down them
19:02:38 <elliott> two, for things like entrances to branches
19:02:47 <monqy> (1) no issue, they'll all be escape hatches
19:02:50 <zzo38> What if they are *not* staircases, but instead are holes in the ground?
19:02:59 <elliott> monqy: that's just silly instead
19:03:10 <elliott> monqy: three, I think it's OK to go back for loot that you skipped (as distinct from stashing)
19:03:25 <monqy> if you want the loot, pick it up!!!
19:03:36 <elliott> but it's heavy and I can't use it yet!
19:04:05 <zzo38> elliott: Then that is your fault for stealing things that you cannot carry. Perhaps find a similar thing later on
19:04:24 <elliott> (btw, are you going to remove food entirely, or just hunger? the latter seems better because ghouls and the like)
19:04:29 <elliott> (or are you removing ghouls too)
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19:05:00 <monqy> removing food entirely, modifying mummys and ghouls and vampres to make them mean something again
19:06:15 <nortti> lol :D my bookmarkfile is larger than my text editor binary
19:06:53 <zzo38> Do you know the answers to my questions?
19:07:44 <Deewiant> firefox's places.sqlite (which stores bookmarks and history, I believe) is about 25 times the size of my text editor binary
19:07:45 <monqy> "there will be a solution"
19:08:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I have had it up to here with this motherfucking GNOME on this motherfucking laptop.
19:08:15 <elliott> anyway uugh i really don't like removing upstairs but "your game"
19:08:27 <monqy> traveling between branches is ugh anyway
19:08:34 <monqy> interlevel travel is
19:08:47 <elliott> monqy: conversely, why do you want to remove stairs with the tweaks I suggested?
19:08:52 <nortti> Deewiant: I am using a flat file
19:09:30 <monqy> i don't like your antistashing tweak
19:09:35 <nortti> and I have used this file for about a month
19:09:43 <calamari> Phantom_Hoover: I was using Kde 3.5/Trinity.. when I got my new laptop, I tried a ton of DEs.. finally came back to Trinity, it's my favorite
19:09:51 <elliott> monqy: ais523's is probably better
19:10:29 <nortti> calamari: has there bern much change from kde 3.5?
19:10:55 <monqy> the bag of holding?
19:11:07 <calamari> nortti: it's definitely stuck in the past.. but that's me, I guess
19:11:15 <nortti> calamari: how much memory does it use
19:11:38 <calamari> I'm not actually sure how to determine that
19:11:44 <nortti> calamari: I used to use twm
19:11:58 <nortti> + so age is not anissue
19:12:10 <monqy> i'm not really fold of those either but maybe there are solutions??
19:12:15 <nortti> calamari: use top command
19:12:32 <elliott> monqy: how about limiting the amount of weight a tile can support?
19:12:49 <elliott> so if you try and put too much on one tile, it just turns into a shaft or whatever
19:12:52 <monqy> how would that prevent stashing
19:12:52 <calamari> nortti: right, but there are diffrent numbers, and I was never sure which one was real
19:12:57 <elliott> monqy: it'd make it really tedious
19:13:03 <monqy> "just what i wanted"
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19:13:10 <elliott> monqy: that discourages it, doesn't it?
19:13:27 <monqy> making something more tedious doesn't stop it from being optimal
19:13:42 <monqy> i want to remove the "optimal but tedious" aspect
19:13:50 <calamari> nortti: I'll add up a few of there and see what I get
19:13:52 <elliott> nobody plays optimally; if you make the optimal stuff annoying enough, people won't bother
19:14:13 <monqy> i don't like that philosophy
19:14:23 <elliott> I like removing upstairs less
19:15:05 <elliott> monqy: how about just making dropping an item destroy it :)
19:15:20 <elliott> it's better than removing upstairs!!
19:15:33 <monqy> you'd leave items on previous levels and come back to them
19:15:44 <calamari> nortti: I'm assuming you'll want to run the standard stuff like package update notifications
19:15:51 <elliott> monqy: items would get destroyed when you go >
19:16:15 <monqy> elliott: and you prefer that over removing upstairs?
19:17:28 <Ngevd> I think my roguelike will go up rather than down
19:17:40 <nortti> calamari: my computer is IBM ThinkPad T20 with 700MHz Pentium III and 64MB of RAM
19:17:42 <elliott> monqy: anyway idkkkk you should at least leave removing upstairs for last so i can come up with adequate solutions to your objections in the meantime :p
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19:18:32 <elliott> you should termcast what you have so far sometime or something
19:18:41 <calamari> nortti: it looks like around 150mb
19:19:14 <nortti> calamari: ugh. I'll just stick with openbox then
19:19:20 <calamari> nortti: laptops are cheap, why not upgrade?
19:19:56 <nortti> calamari: I try to use my computers as long as I can
19:19:57 <Ngevd> It will be called "Business Barbarian"
19:20:19 <calamari> nortti: 64mb ram is pretty limiting tho, even besides the gui
19:21:15 <nortti> calamari: links2, hv3 and netsurf
19:21:24 <calamari> I have a machine around that speed and iceweasel was not too fun
19:23:07 <elliott> monqy: what are you going to do about vaults
19:23:37 <monqy> a lot of them work but most of them get vetoed
19:23:53 <nortti> calamari: my main browser is links2 in graphical mode and most of the programs I use are already terminal aplications. If I could only get framebuffer to work with my computer I would not autostart X
19:23:57 <monqy> i'm pretty fine with this for monqys-crawl. it's not an entirely serious project
19:24:09 <monqy> saving that for last i guess
19:24:20 <elliott> are you getting rid of imps :(
19:24:59 <elliott> (that :( means "i hope so")
19:25:02 <nortti> calamari: links2, netsurf and mplayer can be run on framebuffer
19:25:05 <monqy> most monsters aren't very annoying right now
19:25:33 <monqy> i'll probably have to make some adjustments because everything dies really really quickly like in one hit
19:25:59 <monqy> made most if not all things do max damage
19:26:15 <elliott> maybe they should do average damage instead
19:26:22 <elliott> (i'm not sure removing randomness in combat is A Gr8 Idea)
19:28:15 <monqy> not really a serious project
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19:29:15 <calamari> nortti: I haven't used netsurf, but yeah I've done that with links2 and mplayer
19:29:36 <elliott> monqy: you should remove the non-xom gods (im giving good advice)
19:30:48 <nortti> calamari: netsurf is a browser originaly for risc os that is a bitch to get to compild because of its dependecies
19:33:23 <elliott> monqy: are you going to tweak starting stats/inv, btw, if you're increasing ood spawns?
19:34:53 <monqy> by ood increase i might actually mean not generating monsters before your current depth because they're just not worth having
19:35:02 <monqy> and by not generating them i might mean replacing them with oods
19:35:08 <monqy> i don't know, myself!
19:35:15 <elliott> i don't know myself either
19:35:47 <elliott> monqy: why is crawl like 400k lines of code :(
19:36:36 <monqy> it's not particularly pleasant either
19:36:45 <elliott> i don't even know where the monster definitions are
19:37:52 <zzo38> You could also make some things to be options which can be selected before the game starts
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19:40:10 <elliott> I don't think the Crawl people understand OOP
19:41:39 -!- AnotherTest has left.
19:42:12 <Phantom_Hoover> oh thank god i was only reminded who he was right after he left
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19:44:05 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: who he is?
19:44:44 <Phantom_Hoover> He came in going on about how general relativity is clearly bullshit.
19:44:55 <Phantom_Hoover> When challenged on this, he claimed to be an expert on it.
19:44:56 <elliott> that wasn't quite how it went
19:45:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Well roughly that, he was criticising it based on claimed expertise.
19:45:21 <elliott> see http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-12-20#133853AnotherTest onwards
19:45:26 <nortti> what!? challeged general relativity?
19:45:43 <Phantom_Hoover> yes we convicted him under uk anti-free speech legislation
19:46:13 <elliott> 13:36:50: <elliott> "Time is a part of the measuring system used to sequence events, to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify rates of change such as the motions of objects.[1] The temporal position of events with respect to the transitory present is continually changing; events happen, then are located further and further in the past. Time has been a major subject of religion, philosophy, and
19:46:13 <elliott> science, but defining it in a n
19:46:13 <elliott> 13:36:51: <elliott> on-controversial manner applicable to all fields of study has consistently eluded the greatest scholars. A simple definition states that "time is what clocks measure"."
19:46:14 <elliott> 13:36:56: <elliott> -- Wikipedia, attempting to define "time".
19:46:16 <elliott> 13:37:10: <elliott> Did you know that events happen, and then are located further and further in the past?
19:48:39 -!- atehwa has quit (Quit: testaan startup-skripti').
19:48:41 <elliott> Oh no, now I'm reading that log again.
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19:49:15 <zzo38> The correct way to define time is according to its effects on physics.
19:49:36 <calamari> nortti: fwiw I run openbox on that laptop :)
19:50:47 <calamari> I tried openbox/lxde on my new one but it jus tcouldn't handle multiple unmatched screens properly
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19:53:29 <nortti> calamari: have you ever used wwm? it is quite nice window manager
19:53:56 <elliott> 14:17:16: <AnotherTest> < means something, in fact
19:53:56 <elliott> 14:17:22: <elliott> < implies =/=.
19:53:56 <elliott> 14:17:25: <AnotherTest> No
19:54:49 <zzo38> Do you think this is the correct way to define time, or do you have other opinion?
19:54:51 <elliott> 14:21:27: <AnotherTest> I'm even doubting whether you understand what a momentum is, Phatum
19:54:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You're Phatum_Hoover now.
19:55:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Phatum_Hooveer.
19:55:04 -!- Phatum_Hooveer has changed nick to Phatum_Hoover.
20:03:34 -!- orionx has joined.
20:03:49 <HackEgo> orionx: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
20:03:53 <HackEgo> orionx: This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
20:04:40 -!- orionx has left.
20:05:25 <olsner> maybe we should put the programming note directly in the welcome message
20:05:55 <elliott> `learn Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:07:18 <zzo38> It seems difficult (or maybe completely impossible) making the category for a partial ordering in Haskell. (As far as I can tell, the laws of a partial ordering are the same as the laws of a thin category.)
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20:18:25 <elliott> monqy: this is a great sprint game im watching
20:18:28 <elliott> mephitic clouding everything
20:19:16 <monqy> scummos? I'm assuming it's not n7
20:19:24 <zzo38> Phatum_Hoover: Probably it includes all of LaTeX which is very large, as well as fonts and drivers and so on; I do not know if it is possible to tell it to omit LaTeX. Also, do you have PCL printer?
20:19:41 <elliott> ok they're not mephitic clouding the elephant slug
20:19:42 <zzo38> If you do not have a PCL printer, you won't need the programs "dvipcl", "dvilj", and their variants, either.
20:19:56 <Phatum_Hoover> Jesus christ why is texlive so huge zzo need not reply
20:20:27 <zzo38> O, you are asking Jesus Christ. Well, he isn't here right now.
20:21:04 <monqy> when will he be back
20:21:04 <elliott> sprint seems to involve a lot of running away
20:21:15 <elliott> or maybe this guy is just bad at it
20:21:34 <monqy> he's kiting the elephant slug, but maybe that's his only option
20:21:38 <monqy> and that's only the first sprint
20:21:42 <monqy> there's no running
20:22:12 <elliott> aren't you meant to kill sonja last
20:22:15 <elliott> the level's named after her
20:22:30 <qfr> Freenode Sonja?
20:22:59 <qfr> Oh, I thought you meant the freenode Sonja, I guess not
20:23:03 <qfr> Frequents many channels
20:23:11 <elliott> what a reasonable thing to believe
20:23:27 <zzo38> Phatum_Hoover: Perhaps you can remove the files that you don't want, after install? When I installed MiKTeX, it included many files I did not want but there is an option to remove them so that is what I did.
20:25:23 <monqy> sprint difficulty depends greatly on which sprint, combo, and if you know how to do it
20:25:36 <monqy> by its fixed nature, it's much more spoily than normal crawl
20:26:25 <elliott> i have a feeling it isn't very suited to pure melee characters
20:26:28 <elliott> at least unless you have a ton of hp
20:26:36 <monqy> no it's perfectly fine on them
20:31:35 <elliott> wow sprints are popular today
20:44:31 <elliott> monqy: anyway i guess removing upstairs isn't such a bad idea except for the messing up branches thing
20:44:36 <elliott> (also how are you going to do the orb run)
20:45:04 <monqy> the mcrawl approach is just not have orb run
20:45:14 <elliott> you just win once you pick up the orb or w/e?
20:45:21 <elliott> i guess you could do the rogue thing
20:45:22 <monqy> top priority momentarily is make it segfault less
20:45:30 <elliott> change downstairs into upstairs once you get the orb
20:45:45 <elliott> have an upstairs next to the orb
20:45:50 <monqy> orb run is pretty dull but maybe in monqys-crawl it would be more interesting
20:46:20 <elliott> im working on the assumption that anything dull would be made more interesting
20:46:33 <elliott> (ps it would be less dull with the things-follow-you-upstairs change!!!)
20:46:48 <monqy> things-follow-you-downstairs
20:47:03 <elliott> right, that should be added even if upstairs are removed
20:47:18 <elliott> otherwise you can just skip any level with anything dangerous on it and since you can't go upstairs anyway you don't really lose much
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20:48:43 <elliott> ps remove goliath beetles, nerf worms
20:48:57 <Ngevd> My roguelike is going well
20:48:59 <monqy> worms were nerft by the max damage dealie
20:49:10 <monqy> most things were, really. except for the things that were megabuft
20:49:18 <monqy> "needs rebalancing"
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20:49:23 <elliott> monqy: yeah but that seems to have nerfed everything to a terrible degree so
20:49:25 <monqy> "that can come after making it not segfault"
20:49:28 <elliott> my balancing suggestions are assuming you fix that
20:49:46 <elliott> the problem with removing randomness from combat is that
20:49:58 <elliott> you can basically predetermine whether you'll live or die before doing anything
20:50:05 <elliott> which removes all possibility of taking a risk or whatever
20:51:07 <Ngevd> Change of plan, bye
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20:51:52 <monqy> "we'll just have to wait for monqy's actual roguelike"
20:52:30 <elliott> didn't you realise it's impossible to make a crawl variant AND another game
20:53:45 <elliott> anyway i'm still suggest even if it's totally non-serious
21:01:57 <nortti> http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2009/07/21/on-optimization/
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21:31:17 <zzo38> I am trying to think of how to make WizardCard to know which headings are more specific than others
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21:32:19 <zzo38> For example, the heading macro/xyz(0) is more specific than macro/xyz(#1)
21:32:54 <zzo38> Since the first heading only matches exactly xyz(0) but the second one matches xyz with anything else too
21:33:16 <Phantom_Hoover> How hard it is to configure wifi connections on Linux.
21:33:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I *still* have no idea whatsoever how to do it except with the GNOME applet.
21:33:48 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Did you read the man page?
21:34:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I cannot find documentation without having the slightest idea which tool I'm even looking at.
21:34:29 <zzo38> I don't know what that man page will be called; you can try man -k to search
21:40:32 <zzo38> Can you help me with the algorithm of most specific headings? It is not only as simple as the examples I have given; there are other possibilities too.
21:42:13 <elliott> zzo38: how about defining a union-of-two-headings function?
21:42:37 <elliott> then x `isMoreSpecificThan` y = x == mappend x y
21:43:04 <zzo38> Well, OK, but can you give an example of what you mean?
21:43:21 <elliott> err, I'm not sure what you mean, that *was* the example :)
21:43:34 <elliott> mappend x y would be a heading that matches whenever x or y matches
21:43:42 <nortti> @ask Gregor what is wrong with bsd userland
21:44:08 <zzo38> Thanks that looks like it will work
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21:44:24 <monqy> elliott: wouldn't you need the specificity order to form a lattice then
21:44:38 <elliott> monqy: yep, I was making assumptions about zzo38's situation
21:44:51 <monqy> zzo38: does it form a lattice
21:45:12 <zzo38> monqy: Can you explain what a lattice is, then?
21:46:49 <zzo38> The headings are of type [Token] and, other than the exact match tokens, the other ones are T_Para (matches anything), and T_List and T_Call (both of which can contain other tokens)
21:47:24 <monqy> latice, basically: partial order with operations to take the greatest upper lower and least upper bound of any two elements
21:47:26 <zzo38> It seems that sometimes two headings cannot be combined in this way
21:47:52 <monqy> i guess you could just get away with a semilattice though
21:48:07 <zzo38> monqy: What is a "greatest upper lower"?
21:48:09 <monqy> semilattices only need one of those operations
21:48:17 <monqy> i meant greatest lower bound
21:48:21 <monqy> not greatest upper lower
21:48:27 <zzo38> OK, that is what I thought you might have meant
21:48:29 <elliott> its ok greatest upper lower was greatest
21:49:40 <monqy> zzo38: one of them is called "meet" and the other is "join" and I can never remember which is which, but mappend in elliott's example is one of them, depending on which way you order your stuff
21:50:49 <elliott> fwiw, there's http://hackage.haskell.org/package/lattices
21:51:21 <elliott> which is probably better than Monoid for you since it ensures commutativity and so on
21:52:07 <zzo38> But "join" is already used in Haskell for the monadic operation. But are "meet" and "join" dual like in a dual category (treating the partial ordering as a category)?
21:52:29 <elliott> you can import the module qualified (as L, say)
21:53:30 <zzo38> But, still, some headings may not be able to combine in this way
21:54:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20890
21:54:39 <zzo38> Unless you meant something that may match *more* than only the two original headings.
21:56:55 <zzo38> Perhaps you can clarify?
21:58:19 <zzo38> coppro: Can you elaborate on that?
21:58:29 <coppro> I forgot the / on an irssi command
21:58:50 <Phantom_Hoover> OK I think I actually have Henry back to being tolerable!!
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22:00:10 <zzo38> coppro: Do you know somethings about answering my question though? Maybe not?
22:00:50 <zzo38> elliott: For example, the headings macro/x(0) and macro/x(1) are both matched by macro/x(#1) but then it matches many other things too
22:04:13 <zzo38> nortti: I have a fortunes file too. Do you have?
22:04:39 <nortti> zzo38: yes but it is very small
22:05:38 <zzo38> (Also, if the part before the slash differs, the headings won't combine at all, but that is not relevant since the ordering of specificness is not important if the headings are of a different kind)
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22:07:04 <nortti> c2bf project status: c2bf-cpp now supports #define, c2bf-libc has now been split to multiple files (stdio.c,string.c)
22:08:39 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:10:54 <nortti> todo: implement strings
22:12:47 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: TODO: QUIT).
22:13:44 -!- elliott has joined.
22:14:20 <elliott> 21:54:39: <zzo38> Unless you meant something that may match *more* than only the two original headings.
22:15:35 <elliott> monqy: does it still segfault :'(
22:15:54 <monqy> i havne't worked on it since last night
22:16:16 <elliott> home work: make crawl variant
22:18:12 <nortti> Aural myiasis (the technical term for "being earfucked by worms")
22:46:18 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:46:26 <lambdabot> nortti asked 1h 2m 44s ago: what is wrong with bsd userland
22:46:34 <Gregor> nortti: I was TROLLING
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23:28:10 <elliott> monqy: alsobtw, are you removing identification entirely or just making things identify on pickup?
23:30:39 <monqy> plans to remove id entirely
23:30:55 <monqy> picking things up to identify them then dropping them when they aren't good found "lots of fun"
23:32:07 <elliott> monqy: yeah it's kind of boring; it's interesting in some respects but maybe not enough to keep it
23:32:14 <elliott> not in the context of Crawl at least
23:33:09 <elliott> i was thinking My Roguelike(tm) might have some minor forms of identification but they'd be very limited and race-based
23:33:35 <elliott> e.g. a stupid race wouldn't be able to identify scrolls before using them (because they can't read) until they upped int
23:33:48 <elliott> but the solution would be: don't use scrolls
23:33:49 <monqy> the only form of identification i've considered for my roguelike so far is that spell-identification thing i talked about
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23:34:22 <monqy> well, "spell" "identification"
23:34:50 <elliott> maybe i shouldn't speak of anything resembling an identification game in anything even resembling a positive light while i'm trying to convince ais523 that nethack's id game is really awful
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23:52:00 <elliott> my monkey is apparently not smart enough to not kill pit bloats
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00:10:12 <monqy> 17:09:15 < Delcan> Crawl loves... it's just misunderstood
00:10:12 <monqy> 17:09:20 < Perryman> hate is love.
00:10:12 <monqy> 17:09:25 < Perryman> thats what i tell my girl anyway
00:10:12 <monqy> 17:09:30 < Perryman> did i say that out loud
00:10:12 <monqy> 17:09:33 < monqy> hi
00:10:19 <monqy> ##crawl quality. ##crawlity.
00:11:31 <ais523> monqy: was that hi as punishment?
00:12:11 <monqy> as punishment as it can be without anyone understanding it
00:12:36 <ais523> I mean, us in #esoteric understand that you mean hi as a threat
00:12:39 <ais523> does ##crawl generally know that?
00:13:39 <ais523> it's the sort of thing you threaten
00:13:49 <elliott> i know i'd feel ashamed if monqy "hi"d me :(
00:14:09 <ais523> -I could keep this up for ages-
00:14:15 <elliott> -It doesn't work if you don't punctuate.-
00:14:25 <ais523> -it doesn't work as well at least-
00:14:31 <ais523> -but punctuating is rare on IRC anyway-
00:14:41 <elliott> im getting bored of brogue im going to play crawl instead
00:15:47 <elliott> after playing a fixed-viewport game for a while crawl's moving viewport makes me dizzy again oops
00:20:37 <monqy> maybe triy a different stairs down
00:20:49 <elliott> viewport i needed help with
00:21:12 <elliott> it's not different enough to nethack for me to play it more yet
00:22:17 <elliott> coppro: but if ais523 listens to me maybe i will ;)
00:23:40 <elliott> _You sense Yredelemnul urging you to kill the trapped human.
00:25:09 <elliott> idk i was expecting yred to
00:25:31 <elliott> wait, undead can worship yred?
00:25:43 <monqy> yred hates nonliving though
00:25:56 <elliott> you can worship it but it'll hate you
00:26:06 <monqy> nonliving is distinct from undead in crawl
00:26:11 <monqy> (they're technical terms)
00:26:43 <monqy> the crawl holinesses are natural, plant, undead, nonliving, holy
00:26:56 <monqy> (holiness is also a crawl term)
00:27:25 <elliott> should i worship yred (no)
00:27:38 <monqy> yaey, undead friends. yaey, alley managemtn
00:28:20 <elliott> do you want to hear a joke
00:29:47 <monqy> wow after playing monqys-crawl crawl levels look so big and empty
00:29:55 <elliott> i want to see monqys-crawl :'(
00:30:07 <monqy> it's not ready for the public eye!!!
00:30:35 <monqy> i was almost going to fix the segfaulting today but then i remembered i had homework
00:30:43 <elliott> segfaulting is part of the monqys-crawl experience!!!
00:30:43 <monqy> "man i sure suck at not having that"
00:31:11 <elliott> monqys-crawl doesn't actually exist you've just put a segfault in some branch of standard crawl code and lied about the rest "my prediction"
00:31:51 <monqy> there are lots of segfaults !
00:32:20 <elliott> ill go berserk over monqy's LIES
00:32:34 <quintopia> elliott: what's the command to find out what my internet interfaces are
00:32:37 <ion> Hmm. Someone should make a roguelike where you have to try to win by avoiding actual segfaults.
00:32:56 <monqy> maybe i'll termcast monqys-crawl once I get some of the segfaultiness ironed out
00:33:17 <elliott> monqy: are you telling me that segfaults wouldn't make a termcast at least 67.4% more amusing
00:33:29 <elliott> im sorry but i just cant condone your heretical views
00:33:30 <quintopia> monqy: what is the betterness of monqys-crawl?
00:33:34 <monqy> elliott: segfault likelihood increases quickly as you descend
00:33:44 <elliott> monqy: that's even funnier!!!
00:33:47 <monqy> quintopia: it's not really a serious branch
00:33:58 <elliott> you know what's unserious?
00:34:10 <elliott> im going on crawl strike until i see monqys-crawl "taking a stand for freedom"
00:34:36 <monqy> let's see i if i remember how to do this
00:34:42 <elliott> i can tell you if you want
00:34:49 <elliott> ais523 what's the termcast oneliner
00:35:04 <monqy> i just forget how to type
00:35:06 <elliott> ais523: i don't need to know any more
00:35:11 <elliott> monqy: this happens to me also
00:35:12 <ais523> it'll be hilarious if this works ;)
00:35:54 <ais523> elliott: it may have just been the HackEgo startup bug
00:35:56 <elliott> its so funny i cant survive help :(
00:36:10 <HackEgo> 2010-08-29.txt:22:22:02: <ais523> script -f >( cat ./ratry_login - | nc -q5 noway.ratry.ru 31337 > /dev/null ) "$@"
00:36:39 * ais523 goes back to feeling smug
00:37:10 <ais523> yay, it brought you back from the ded
00:38:11 <ion> Hmm. xw on CDO seems to be running a bot of some kind, too.
00:38:18 <ion> And now he died.
00:38:41 <ion> And now he died again.
00:39:35 <monqy> xw is n7's autorobin fork
00:39:44 <elliott> this thing is better than monqy's bot
00:40:08 <monqy> i got termcaste runeing
00:40:29 <ion> monqy: On what server?
00:42:09 <monqy> what should i play
00:42:38 <monqy> i don't know if my modifications touched ranged combat, so it might megasuck
00:42:39 <elliott> monqy: play something that won't die instantly or i guess nothing will since everything got nerfed
00:42:45 <elliott> just play what you've been playing or w/e
00:42:52 <ais523> let's pick a combo that's bad but not horrendously bad
00:42:57 <ais523> unless they removed AM altogether
00:43:04 <monqy> AM got removed and then unremoved
00:43:24 <ais523> that's not so much bad as completely missing the point :)
00:43:28 <elliott> monqy: just play (a) whatever you played when testing or (b) muck or something
00:43:44 <monqy> but i've only been playing op things
00:44:03 <elliott> ~see more of the monqys-crawl experience~
00:44:17 <monqy> ok i'll cycle through everything you suggest that isn't just "whatever you tried"
00:44:26 <ais523> what about just viable random?
00:44:29 <monqy> so first, a feck that takes chei first chance it gets
00:44:50 <elliott> at least xom's teleportation isn't very scary when the maps are this small
00:44:59 <ais523> hmm, the felid is a Unicode character that isn't in dejavu sans mono
00:45:00 <monqy> oh no is it not working
00:45:07 <elliott> it works apart from dark grey that turns out black because
00:45:08 <ais523> gnome-terminal can render it fine
00:45:23 <monqy> ais523: it's not the normal fe glyph
00:45:29 <elliott> monqy plays as a flashing rainbow square
00:45:30 <ion> elliott: The politically correct term is African-American.
00:45:34 <ais523> oh, it's /meant/ to look like that
00:45:50 <ais523> elliott: what about looking at it through screen?
00:46:04 <ais523> what's with the messages, too?
00:46:09 <elliott> ais523: I know for a fact it works if you set TERM=xterm, so why bother?
00:46:30 <elliott> octopode abyssal knight of chei
00:46:32 <monqy> oh right it was uh seam wasn't it
00:46:48 <ais523> trying to remember where I remember that combo from, it might have been a nemelex choice
00:47:17 <monqy> what weapon, i mean
00:47:21 <monqy> i dunno if it was neme choice
00:47:26 <ais523> whatever you have the best apt for, I guess
00:48:12 <ais523> low hitpoint warning already?
00:48:13 <elliott> go with something op already
00:48:23 <ais523> you're still in sight of all three of the entry squares :)
00:48:46 <monqy> i tested with a LOT OF THINGS
00:48:53 <monqy> and yes im totally ashamed because of how op it is
00:49:16 <elliott> we'll accept this convenient fiction and ignore the fact that you obviously always play that combo when offline
00:49:33 <elliott> does monqys-crawl have the randomised languages and colours and turncount-type-changing built in
00:49:41 <monqy> no that's my .crawlrc
00:50:19 <ais523> elliott: he dropped to five, then back to six the next turn
00:50:19 <ion> Someone shoulde make a Britishe localisation for Crawle.
00:50:28 <ais523> so I guess it has some sort of scaling, even more extreme than Sprint's
00:50:36 <elliott> this looks more fun than crawl already
00:50:37 <ais523> ion: Crawl is in British English already, actually
00:50:39 <ais523> well, Australian English
00:50:45 <ais523> or was it New Zealandish?
00:50:46 <ion> ais523: But not Britishe Englishe
00:50:47 <elliott> monqy: you realise you're going to die so hard if you remove upstairs
00:50:51 <ais523> but much closer to British than American
00:51:10 <ais523> monqycrawl reminds me of Sprint a bit
00:51:11 <ion> Wait. Why do you have so much ********?
00:51:14 <monqy> elliott: i forgot i had a conduct where i didnt take upstairs
00:51:20 <ais523> ion: it's obviously being scaled
00:51:21 <elliott> monqy: tell us about why you started with lots of piety :'(
00:51:23 <monqy> ais523: it's kind of like zigsprint
00:51:33 <elliott> monqy: also that's a bad conduct sheeshe!!!
00:51:36 <monqy> elliott: nope, but i have sprint piety gainsenabled
00:51:40 <ais523> monqy: actually, that seems like a good game mode
00:51:57 <ais523> start the player in a zig, put Sprint-like exp gains
00:52:10 <ais523> increase the amount of loot somewhat
00:52:15 <monqy> ais523: zig sprint is a thing, it's not really a zig but
00:52:28 <ais523> oh, they made a Sprint map that's like a zig?
00:52:46 <ais523> hmm, perhaps I'll play that, I prefer Sprint to regular Crawl quite a bit
00:52:57 <elliott> monqy: hmm, are you sure just making maps the full size of the viewport was too small??
00:53:12 <elliott> it looks like they're too thin and too tall
00:53:21 <monqy> elliott: these are square
00:53:29 <monqy> elliott: it's the shape of your font that makes it seem like that
00:53:51 <elliott> i think the piety scaling might be a bit extreme
00:54:06 <monqy> getting rid of corpses means getting rid of corpse sacrifices
00:54:21 <monqy> i'll see if it's extreme after then
00:54:23 <elliott> i think all the monsters are
00:54:27 <monqy> and i turned on the sprint stuff just for fun
00:54:34 <elliott> the kind of packs you get when going downstairs
00:54:34 <monqy> some of them are megabuff
00:54:39 <monqy> they just don't show up yet
00:54:41 <elliott> will probably annihilate a low-level player with th enerfing
00:54:53 <monqy> it doesn't help that I have 10ac. ac is op in monqys-crawl
00:55:52 <elliott> this actually looks way better than crawl
00:57:27 <elliott> monqy: you went upstairs!!!
00:57:35 <monqy> i forgot about hte conduct
00:57:39 <monqy> i also forgot about the no-resting conduct
00:57:47 <monqy> it's just wired into me from so much crawl play
00:57:52 <elliott> monqy: no-resting is a bit unreasonable if you get poisoned or slow or whatever
00:58:02 <elliott> you're only removing HP regeneration, right?
00:58:06 <monqy> i have infinite piety
00:58:13 <elliott> magic/pois/etc. regeneration seem reasonable to keep
01:00:36 <elliott> monqy: yuore skills are default
01:01:04 <monqy> oops i forgot to go upstairs
01:02:20 <elliott> do something about that hp
01:02:54 <monqy> i get careless when its too easy and then there's a huge difficulty spike
01:02:57 <monqy> monqys-crawl is like that
01:03:06 <ion> crawl is like that
01:03:08 <monqy> now what to play!!
01:03:18 <elliott> monqy: octopode chaos knight of chei
01:03:30 <elliott> recipe for humour: <bad race> chaos knight of chei
01:03:39 <monqy> op can't armoure so it might be a bit "difficult"
01:03:51 <elliott> its ok armour is monqys-crawl's version of mephitic cloud
01:04:00 <elliott> "dont use it" - monqys-crawl's version of monqy
01:05:33 <elliott> ais523: does this look fun to you i cant tell if im just hallucinating
01:05:46 <ais523> elliott: I'm playing zigsprint instead
01:06:13 <elliott> ais523: bah, how can i choose between you playing crawl and monqy playing monqys-crawl?
01:06:53 <elliott> monqy: you forgot to remove the monster colour-coding
01:07:06 <monqy> it's low on the priority list
01:07:54 <elliott> monqy: see that's what i meant by
01:07:57 <monqy> opck "decidedly bad"
01:07:58 <elliott> dying when going downstairs post-un-nerfing
01:08:05 <elliott> (the no armour simulates the un-nerfing)
01:08:59 <elliott> monqy: do a same letter combo
01:09:47 <ion> Err, i mean #
01:09:55 <elliott> actually asks for combination?
01:10:21 <elliott> i think it's pronounced like the first word of Beowulf
01:10:46 <ion> It’s the name of a Chinese network hardware manufacturer.
01:11:22 <elliott> it sounds like it accidentally picked you an ok combination
01:11:59 <ion> Oh, i had totally forgotten DDs sense surroundinges.
01:12:53 <ais523> "the two-headed ogre shouts in stereo!"
01:12:59 <elliott> monqy: im dibs on setting up the first monqys-crawl server
01:13:21 <ion> p eliot is a jerk's ghost
01:13:34 -!- elliott has changed nick to jerks_ghost.
01:13:42 -!- jerks_ghost has changed nick to jerks-ghost.
01:13:56 <jerks-ghost> monqy: will you implement monsters following you downstairs please
01:14:31 <monqy> "forgot to updsatatairs"
01:14:59 <jerks-ghost> does that also mean you'll remove things teleporting downstairs when they should by rights take multiple turns to get down just because they're right next to you
01:16:05 <monqy> everyone got the same changes applid
01:16:23 <jerks-ghost> ais523: btw you can reply to my messages with : hope this helps
01:16:38 <ais523> just didn't feel like replying earlier
01:17:02 <ais523> bleh, didn't quite last long enough
01:17:08 <ais523> but it turned out not to matter
01:17:39 <jerks-ghost> monqy: at least the monsters shield you from the centaur
01:19:26 -!- lexande has left ("Leaving").
01:19:39 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
01:20:01 <jerks-ghost> monqy: did you asnwer my regen question i forget
01:20:05 <jerks-ghost> ais523: you're missing out on monqys-crawl!!!
01:20:38 <jerks-ghost> monqy: you're removing hp gen; i'm assuming you'll leave magic/pois/slow/exh/etc. regen?
01:20:59 <monqy> yeah, except for magic
01:21:12 <monqy> hp/magic regen will be handled in similar ways
01:21:37 <jerks-ghost> you could make food regen hp for everyone but "woops no corpsen"
01:21:55 <jerks-ghost> (maybe leave corpsen and just make them regen hp instead of the hunger mechanic???)
01:23:05 <monqy> would rather just atuomatically just regain hp from kile
01:23:24 <jerks-ghost> that doesn't help if you need hp regenerating later on after kille
01:23:44 <monqy> dd of makh sure doesn't mind
01:23:56 <jerks-ghost> so that killing increases max hp instead of hp if you're at max
01:24:24 <jerks-ghost> dunno if that would have any downsides or whatever "i d k"??? it's "just an idea"
01:30:20 <monqy> in monqys-crawl, levels take a long time to generate because of how small they are
01:30:49 <monqy> could be stuck vetoing everyyyyyyything
01:31:05 <monqy> or it may have actually hung itself rip
01:31:16 <monqy> i'll put it out of its misery and try again
01:31:54 <jerks-ghost> 02:23 <jerks-ghost> you could do hp on kill + remove max hp
01:31:54 <jerks-ghost> 02:23 <monqy> dd of makh sure doesn't mind
01:31:54 <jerks-ghost> 02:24 <jerks-ghost> so that killing increases max hp instead of hp if you're at max
01:32:00 <jerks-ghost> 02:24 <jerks-ghost> (or maybe just max hp???)
01:32:02 <jerks-ghost> 02:24 <jerks-ghost> dunno if that would have any downsides or whatever "i d k"??? it's "just an idea"
01:32:44 <monqy> dunno how that would work out
01:32:49 <ais523> well, that explains why people hate torment, at least
01:33:20 <ais523> tormented repeatedly and then poked to death
01:33:25 <ais523> I couldn't out-regen them
01:33:34 <ais523> and they also killed the berserking trolls really quickly
01:35:20 <jerks-ghost> monqy: well the idea would be: remove increasing max hp on level up
01:35:42 -!- quintopia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:35:45 <monqy> oh nuts slime critter
01:37:08 <monqy> that one got to enourmouse, ie 88dam
01:37:15 <monqy> with maxdam that's uh
01:37:22 <monqy> but then i subtract ac so
01:37:24 <monqy> less than that but
01:37:27 <monqy> "you get the idea"
01:37:33 <ais523> jerks-ghost: they're designed to punish fighting in corridors
01:37:46 <ais523> and interpret everywhere as a corridor in a level as confined as a monqys-crawl level
01:38:04 <jerks-ghost> monqys-crawl must be gr8 for characters that are claustrophobic
01:40:42 <monqy> they affect everything
01:40:49 <monqy> probably make branch endings crash
01:42:43 <monqy> ok fine i'll go to the termplel
01:43:34 <monqy> i'll continue playing my testing gam
01:45:18 <monqy> oh right in this game I have ignite blood and a vampiric battleaxe
01:46:30 <monqy> you gain levels more often
01:46:57 <monqy> i told you it's not presentable yet :|
01:48:46 <jerks-ghost> monqy: have you not been using wizmode for testing?
01:48:54 <monqy> wizmode is for cheaters
01:53:57 <monqy> did you see the action
01:54:14 <monqy> every square had a monster
01:54:28 <jerks-ghost> maybe you should make there only be one downstair wit
01:54:33 <monqy> i spawned next to a giant spore, which killed everything except me (barely), a hill giant(which it confused) and a centaur (which was outside the blast radious)
01:54:42 <monqy> jerks-ghost: that's on the todo list
01:55:47 <monqy> i should get back to my
01:58:04 <jerks-ghost> haven't you ever heard of "commit early commit often"!!!!!!!!
01:58:09 <monqy> should i commit what i have, segfaults and all
02:00:09 <monqy> normally i try to commit early and often!! monqys-crawl is just an exception
02:00:25 <monqy> wherein i just wanted to play around
02:00:50 <jerks-ghost> do a bunch of changes and then use git commit -p
02:00:55 <jerks-ghost> sometimes you have to stash half-way through
02:01:14 <jerks-ghost> once i had a commit session that lasted a few hours on mchost
02:01:25 <monqy> so how do i do this
02:01:45 <monqy> just one big commit for now?
02:01:58 <jerks-ghost> that's OK; it's when you have more complex requirements that it gets
02:02:03 <jerks-ghost> like if you have changes that both touched the same place
02:02:13 <jerks-ghost> then it's stash and restash and apply and modify and uugh time
02:04:58 <monqy> dind't you see it already before? did i accidentally make another
02:05:26 <kmc> i use git add -p
02:05:51 <kmc> life's a bitch
02:07:04 <jerks-ghost> monqy: alternatively: just do it all in one big commit if you would instead give up
02:07:45 <jerks-ghost> (shouldn't you be doing it in a branch though) oh wait there's no commits
02:07:53 <jerks-ghost> (don't do it in another branch its boreing)
02:08:10 <monqy> ok i made the comites
02:08:27 <monqy> doing what in a branch
02:08:53 <jerks-ghost> "technically" git "accepted wisdom" would have it in a branch if you had any pretenses about merging it back into crawl itself
02:09:13 <monqy> i don't think they'd accept my changes
02:09:27 <jerks-ghost> also uhhhh does it put stuff in my home directory or whatever
02:09:35 <monqy> i don't know how to push!!!
02:11:59 <monqy> come on you can do better than that, ion
02:12:48 <ion> “that” –she
02:17:13 <monqy> "one waty to foidn out"
02:17:25 <monqy> yeah there it goes
02:17:44 <monqy> oh no i just remembered i forgot to make the code look presentable too
02:17:58 <jerks-ghost> http://gitorious.org/~monqy/crawl/monqys-crawl
02:18:23 <jerks-ghost> monqy: your commit messages are lowercase :'(
02:18:34 <monqy> was i suposed to upercase them
02:18:37 <monqy> did i do soemthing wrong
02:18:57 <jerks-ghost> the crawle repo uses "Blah blah blah blah." (but "Blah blah blah blah" is the git standard (but crawl adds .s too))
02:19:08 <jerks-ghost> also wouldn't it have been simpler to just
02:19:10 <monqy> i never should have comited
02:19:22 <monqy> it was my first try
02:19:32 <monqy> it tries to load sprint maps
02:19:49 <monqy> it doesnt have the sprint map thingy set so
02:20:10 <jerks-ghost> defender->heal(1 + random2avg(7, 2), true); // heh heh
02:20:10 <jerks-ghost> 2159 defender->heal(1 + 7, true); // heh heh
02:20:21 <ion> Transmogrify the tribbles (title without a dot in the end)
02:20:23 <ion> (empty line)
02:20:31 <monqy> i expect the optomizer to catch that
02:20:40 <ion> An optional longer explanation for the commit, potentially multiple lines/paragraphs.
02:20:43 <monqy> i think that's where distortion heals blink frogs
02:21:16 <monqy> what did i do there i forget
02:21:21 <monqy> im sure i had a good reason
02:22:12 <jerks-ghost> if i get it working maybe i'll remove identification or something "getting my toes wet in the water that is the crawl codebase"
02:22:21 <monqy> oh right i remember why i did that thing
02:22:48 <monqy> in crawl when you lrd certain monsters it either instakills them or adds 2 damage
02:23:05 <monqy> i got rid of the instakill and changed add 2 to multipl;y by 2
02:23:09 <monqy> i think what i did was fair!!
02:23:25 <jerks-ghost> unrandomisde parts that made every monster either terrible or too good
02:23:49 <jerks-ghost> (maybe you should have split the lrd part into another commit!!!)
02:27:06 <monqy> im not going to remove unrandomisation but i'll probably twaeak it and also other monster-related things
02:27:08 <jerks-ghost> ls: /Developer/SDKs: No such file or directory
02:27:08 <jerks-ghost> Makefile:412: *** You do not seem to have any Mac OS X SDKs installed! This build is doomed to fail. Stop.
02:27:16 <jerks-ghost> monqy: what do you have against random :'(
02:27:27 <jerks-ghost> its kind of boring if fights are predetermined!
02:27:28 <monqy> random in crawl is pretty annoying
02:28:20 <jerks-ghost> monqy: will you accept patches to make it work with xcode 4.something
02:29:09 <monqy> but really those should be going to the normal crawl gus
02:30:07 <jerks-ghost> /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/MacOSX.platform/Developer/SDKs
02:31:59 <jerks-ghost> Makefile:447: *** The Mac OS X /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/MacOSX.platform/Developer/SDKs: SDK seems missing. Stop.
02:35:01 <jerks-ghost> monqy: how does it decide whether to build tiles or not
02:35:12 <monqy> if you say make TILES=y it tileses
02:35:21 <monqy> maybe make tiles makes tiles too
02:35:24 <monqy> idk ive never made tiles
02:35:30 <jerks-ghost> Cloning into 'crawl-ref/source/contrib/pcre'...
02:35:30 <jerks-ghost> fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly
02:35:30 <jerks-ghost> Clone of 'git://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl-pcre.git' into submodule path 'crawl-ref/source/contrib/pcre' failed
02:38:53 * ion realized a brain/computer interface could be called a silicon implant.
02:41:14 <monqy> you know what's fun
02:41:22 <monqy> and then everything recompiles
02:43:09 <shachaf> is this "ur permenant nikc"
02:44:27 <jerks-ghost> ./dat/des/altar/altar.des:279: Map too large - 20x7 (max 16x16)
02:44:34 <monqy> that goes in source/something/somethingesel i think
02:44:40 <monqy> ar you termckasting
02:44:50 <jerks-ghost> ./dat/des/altar/altar.des:279: Map too large - 20x7 (max 16x16)
02:45:25 <monqy> it doesnt say so!!
02:46:58 <monqy> it works for me yes
02:47:40 <jerks-ghost> yeah make clean && make and maybe then it'll break? because
02:47:52 <monqy> ok i made clean and am mak
02:52:36 <jerks-ghost> you should add a new god called Maktakstim
02:55:41 <monqy> ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
02:58:34 <jerks-ghost> monqy: i think it might have built with tiles??
03:01:00 <jerks-ghost> tool/tile.cc:9:25: warning: SDL_image.h: No such file or directory
03:01:00 <jerks-ghost> tool/tile.cc: In member function ‘bool tile::load(const std::string&)’:
03:01:00 <jerks-ghost> tool/tile.cc:381: error: ‘IMG_Load’ was not declared in this scope
03:01:10 <jerks-ghost> make -C rltiles all ARCH=x86_64-apple-darwin11.3.0 TILES=n
03:02:03 <monqy> did oyu do the git submodule --init thing but really you shouldn--it's somewhere--'t need to build rltiles if you're not tiles ????? maybe crawls build just dum
03:03:04 <monqy> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/downloads try this i think it has some documentat
03:03:35 <monqy> oh i forget where that is
03:03:46 <monqy> maybe it's in like
03:03:48 <jerks-ghost> # TILES -- set to anything to enable tiles build
03:04:17 <jerks-ghost> @printf " * If you experience any problems building Crawl, please take a second look\\n"\
03:04:17 <jerks-ghost> " * at INSTALL.txt: the solution to your problem just might be in there!\\n"
03:05:25 <jerks-ghost> Mac builds use the Unix build process described above, but require you
03:05:25 <jerks-ghost> to add 'APPLE_GCC=y' to the 'make' command-line. In addition, to build the
03:05:25 <jerks-ghost> graphical version of Crawl, you must add 'NO_PKGCONFIG=y' and
03:06:34 <monqy> im make from the fresh clone now
03:10:47 <monqy> i dont want to support it can i unfork it
03:12:06 <shachaf> jerks-ghost: why are you called "jerks-ghost", jerks-ghost
03:14:36 <monqy> ok FINALLY it break
03:15:38 <jerks-ghost> diff the two directories but i'd do that first
03:18:20 <jerks-ghost> monqy: if diff says theres no differences ill
03:19:47 -!- TeruFSX2 has changed nick to TeruFSX.
03:20:58 <monqy> the onlllllly thing i can find that diffffers that i think might make adifference is
03:21:35 <monqy> sure enough i remvo and it break
03:21:51 <monqy> but now what went wrong !!
03:21:55 <jerks-ghost> 03:45 <jerks-ghost> ./dat/des/altar/altar.des:279: Map too large - 20x7 (max 16x16)
03:22:05 <ion> I love assumptions like this in math questions: “The person is entirely made of water, which weighs 1kg/L.”
03:22:07 <jerks-ghost> like you divided by two once too many or something!!!
03:22:22 <jerks-ghost> at least there's not many places it can be
03:23:25 <jerks-ghost> http://gitorious.org/~monqy/crawl/monqys-crawl/commit/934ebc7df7933d82e37bf959b5e62c749a2efffc
03:23:29 <jerks-ghost> or http://gitorious.org/~monqy/crawl/monqys-crawl/commit/fc9667dff88582d60a78de5b4bc36074c69dcb98 (<-- less likely)
03:26:06 <monqy> i'll think about it when i have less homwork
03:26:16 <shachaf> monqy: hi does elliott have me on /ignore
03:27:05 <shachaf> what is that thing at the end of your sentence
03:27:27 <monqy> oh i have to go "oops"
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04:32:42 -!- zzo38 has set topic: It looks like a pipe, but it is not. Anemometers don't fire bullets. Not even the explosive ones! Or I don't think they do ... if they do, meteorologists are more hardcore than I thought possible. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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06:01:28 <pikhq_> Ceci n'est pas une "ceci n'est pas une pipe".
06:02:33 <pikhq_> The French musta thought English should be more like French.
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06:12:00 <madbr> latin meets german did it
06:15:13 <zzo38> Who is Arthur Mometer?
06:15:58 -!- zzo38 has set topic: It looks like a pipe, but it is not. Astronomers don't fire bullets. Not even the explosive ones! Or I don't think they do ... if they do, meteors are even more hardcore than I thought possible. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
06:26:21 <shachaf> @tell elliott By the way, the "unordered tuple" thing is just n-choose-k.
06:36:34 <shachaf> @tell elliott OK, maybe not quite.
06:38:27 <monqy> unordered tuple? multiset?
06:40:38 <shachaf> @tell elliott (n + k - 1) choose (k - 1)?
06:40:47 <shachaf> monqy: Of a particular size.
06:41:25 <monqy> I've heard that (n + k - 1) choose (k - 1) thing called "multichoose" too
06:42:19 <kmc> shachaf, do you know why -fstack-protector would have a much higher relative performance impact on an Atom N270 than a Core 2 Duo?
06:42:28 <shachaf> monqy: I haven't heard that.
06:43:12 <kmc> that's about all i have
06:43:40 <kmc> also i used GCC 4.4 and 4.6 respectively, so that might be it
06:43:51 <kmc> shachaf: ran a Mosh benchmark program a few times
06:44:16 <shachaf> You should try profiling it.
06:44:23 <shachaf> No idea whether that'll yield any insights.
06:44:42 <kmc> function-level profiling probably will not
06:44:50 <kmc> since each function has its own copy of the stack-check code
06:45:16 <kmc> ...that could be why, actually.
06:45:21 <kmc> i-cache blowout
06:45:34 <shachaf> Right, instruction-level profiling.
06:45:50 <kmc> i don't know how to do that, and i don't know if the Atom has the right CPU features
06:45:58 <shachaf> That seems like a reasonable theory. How much code does it actually generate?
06:46:19 <shachaf> The Linux program "perf" makes at least some kinds of instruction-level profiling pretty easy, I think.
06:46:40 <kmc> i also don't have the Atom machine handy anymore :/
06:47:01 <shachaf> You should use perf anyway!
06:48:05 <kmc> i was also thinking it could be bad branch prediction
06:48:12 <kmc> basically i can only speculate
06:49:02 <shachaf> kmc: apt-get install linux-base # maybe?; perf record ./blah; perf annotate
06:55:01 <kmc> shachaf: on amd64 it adds at least 25 bytes to each function
06:55:39 <shachaf> -fstack-protector is for people who make mistakes. Just don't make mistakes.
07:01:35 <itidus21> i write all my source code compressed to save keystrokes
07:03:21 <Deewiant> You might as well write the binary directly then because making changes to any part of that code will entail rewriting most of it
07:04:39 <itidus21> hmm.. i write the binary compressed..
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07:09:12 <zzo38> If you write the binary directly, it makes the program less portable and less adjustable, I would think. Still, for sufficiently small and simple programs it may be useful.
07:09:35 <itidus21> it requires a lot of messing around with the Alt key though
07:09:45 <zzo38> itidus21: Is this in ZIP format?
07:10:17 <itidus21> its not quite genuine though.. i faked some parts of it
07:10:40 <itidus21> yes.. for all those people who know that zip files start with a PK when viewed as ascii :P
07:10:47 <zzo38> The PK followed by CTRL+C and CTRL+D is what made me realize; these are the first four bytes of any ZIP file.
07:11:11 <itidus21> the rest of the code is faked with spaces etc
07:11:58 <itidus21> humm.. im just being silly of course
07:13:50 <itidus21> i was inspired by shachaf's comment about not making mistakes
07:14:30 <kmc> itidus21: you're a Real Hacker
07:16:15 <kmc> shachaf: the code gets about 12% bigger with stack-smashing protection
07:16:18 <kmc> (on 32-bit now)
07:16:21 <itidus21> i'm not trying to hide the fact i took a zipfile(instead of traditionally open compression format) and opened it in Windows wordpad and pasted the first few chars
07:17:11 <itidus21> or the fact that producing source code in compressed format would be computationally more expensive
07:17:55 <shachaf> kmc: That's a bigger increase than I thought.
07:18:00 <kmc> i guess that... could explain a 20% performance hit?
07:18:10 <shachaf> You should profile it. :-)
07:18:19 <kmc> i don't know if I care enough to dig deep on this
07:18:24 <kmc> but it would be cool to learn how to do that
07:18:30 <kmc> but i have so many other things i could do
07:18:40 <kmc> i'm going to blog post it and hope someone else tells me the answer
07:18:41 <itidus21> but i think it would be cool in a sci fi kind of way to be able to type data in compressed format
07:19:09 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorthand
07:19:16 <shachaf> kmc: I would measure it but I don't have a program or an Atom CPU handy.
07:19:24 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenotype
07:19:36 <shachaf> But perf etc. can measure icache misses pretty easily, I think.
07:19:39 <kmc> court stenographers are the true cyberpunk heros
07:19:56 <kmc> the program is in Mosh; i can send you a link
07:20:07 <shachaf> I heard of that program once.
07:20:46 <kmc> hm oh I do have an Atom machine I forgot about
07:20:53 <kmc> but it's running a weird Linux distro
07:21:10 <shachaf> Doesn't make a big difference, I think.
07:21:11 <kmc> also it's not the same one I did the original measurements on
07:21:26 <shachaf> If you can't reproduce the original measurements on, even better!
07:21:28 <kmc> and it's not turned on
07:21:35 <kmc> so I'd have to walk all the way upstairs
07:21:45 <kmc> it's not even plugged in, man!
07:22:22 <kmc> the forces of curiosity and laziness are doing battle in my head
07:23:03 <itidus21> unpossible = simpsons reference 1. maybe. airconditioner fighting the heater in the rental car is the second.
07:23:34 <shachaf> kmc: You should "learn" to do simple instruction-level profiling.
07:23:43 <shachaf> And perf has this fancy TUI.
07:24:42 <kmc> ok fine i'll at least see if perf can get cache misses on atom
07:25:06 <kmc> i'll use the same Atom machine I used before (but not the same OS install)
07:25:12 <kmc> which is not ideal because it's under load
07:25:59 <kmc> oh, wait, no I don't have that machine at all
07:26:04 <kmc> it's in new york city
07:26:16 <kmc> too many netbooks
07:26:40 <kmc> the one i have has a 900 MHz Celeron M, not an Atom
07:29:58 <kmc> let the internet sort this one out
07:34:08 <kmc> shachaf: it's 12% bigger because we stack protect *every* function
07:34:18 <shachaf> Just protect the ones with bugs in them.
07:34:22 <kmc> even the ones with no buffers
07:34:34 <kmc> shachaf: i might have to upgrade gcc to get that feature
07:35:21 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know Either (Nat,Nat) Nat is an even type, but (Nat,Nat) isn't?
07:35:47 <pikhq_> shachaf: Better: annotate the ones with bugs in them.
07:36:00 <pikhq_> Then, you can stick every single statement in its own function!
07:36:37 <shachaf> @tell elliott Did you know Either (Nat,Nat) Nat is an even type, but (Nat,Nat) isn't? Becuase of the extra diagonal.
07:36:52 <kmc> what's an even type?
07:37:14 <shachaf> @tell elliott Also it's actually just (n + k - 1) choose k, for the sensible value of k
07:37:21 <shachaf> kmc: A type you can divide by 2.
07:37:31 <shachaf> For example Bool is even but Maybe Bool isn't.
07:37:45 <kmc> i didn't read that paper on quotient types or whatever
07:38:07 <shachaf> Just #haskell-blah gossip with dolio.
07:38:27 <shachaf> kmc: It makes some sense for (n^2 + n) to be even for any value of n.
07:38:35 <shachaf> 00:33 < dolio> The reason is, I guess, that Left (n, n) is the same as Right n, and Left (m, n) is the same as Left (n, m), so there are two of every thing you want to make into one element.
07:38:38 <shachaf> 00:34 < dolio> You can't just divide Nat * Nat by 2, though, because there is only one of each of the diagonal.
07:38:42 <shachaf> 00:34 < dolio> You have to add an extra diagonal to it.
07:41:06 <shachaf> I know what even finite types are but even infinite types are a bit weirder.
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07:41:58 <shachaf> I'm not sure either makes sense.
07:46:32 <zzo38> Tell me what half of (Either (Nat,Nat) Nat) is?
07:47:12 <shachaf> An unordered pair of Nats.
07:48:31 <shachaf> Well, in general for a finite type x, (x^2+x)/2 is an unordered pair of xs.
07:48:47 <shachaf> zzo38: See dolio's thing above for a mapping.
07:49:06 <shachaf> I'm not sure that it's valid for infinite types, but take it for arbitrary finite types instead. :-)
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08:02:06 <cheater_> doesn't even type just mean there's a cycle of length two through which you can create a quotient
08:02:55 <cheater_> because if yes then it's fairly obvious anything with a binary choice in series with other type features will be even
08:04:53 <cheater_> i really like the fact that this channel is talking about haskell, even though it's not really an esolang
08:07:01 <kmc> OR IS IT??????
08:07:12 <kmc> esolang is in the eye of the beholder
08:07:27 <kmc> what do you use it for?
08:07:35 <kmc> did you tell #haskell? did they cream their pants?
08:07:41 <cheater_> i told you the last thing i used it for
08:07:55 <kmc> i don't remember
08:08:01 <cheater_> except that was a lie because your pants were probably off already
08:08:09 <kmc> there's really no reason to wear pants
08:08:59 <kmc> yeah when i have guests over, i have to put pants on
08:09:02 <kmc> sometimes they come off though
08:09:35 <cheater_> like when the mormons come over for a bible talk?
08:10:21 <cheater_> highlight of yesterday's visit to hi-fi tradeshow: audiophile breakers
08:15:24 <kmc> circuit breakers?
08:15:43 <cheater_> the stuff that's in your breaker box
08:15:43 <zzo38> data Zero; data UnordNatTag :: * -> * where { Z :: UnordNatTag Zero; S :: UnordNatTag x -> UnordNatTag (Maybe x); }; type UnordNatPair = DSum UnordNatTag; Is this a correct way of an unordered pair of natural numbers?
08:15:58 <kmc> that's a hell of an industry
08:16:02 <kmc> i should get into it
08:16:07 <kmc> do they have special food for audiophiles yet?
08:16:11 <kmc> they have special food for gamers
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08:16:25 <cheater_> i've seen special food for geeks
08:16:52 <cheater_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Cola
08:16:56 <kmc> http://www.gamergrub.com/
08:17:17 <kmc> looks like it's not really related to the OS?
08:17:28 <cheater_> it's still an african scam though
08:18:04 <kmc> 419 scam westerners every day
08:18:06 <pikhq_> You can do much better than audiophile stuff.
08:18:09 <cheater_> "boost your game with gamer grub"
08:18:25 <cheater_> pikhq_: oh yeah, that's really good too
08:18:33 <pikhq_> Actually, combine them.
08:18:39 <pikhq_> Homeopathic audiophile equipment.
08:19:07 <cheater_> this western electric stuff, i've seen a recreation of it
08:19:15 <cheater_> just one tweeter cost 9000 euro
08:19:19 <pikhq_> "Each box contains a 50X solution of Sennheiser headphones, making your audio experience the best it can be!"
08:19:29 <cheater_> and it's like an electromagnet and a small horn and that's it
08:19:43 <cheater_> nothing you couldn't do on a rotary mill
08:21:28 <zzo38> Do you know answer for my question above?
08:23:13 <cheater_> not i, perhaps try to explain your reasoning?
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08:24:55 <zzo38> I am using the DSum type from "dependent-sum" package; it is defined as follows: data DSum tag = forall a. !(tag a) :=> a
08:28:12 <zzo38> This way may be better: data UnordNatTag :: * -> * where { Z :: UnordNatTag (Maybe Zero); S :: UnordNatTag (Maybe x) -> UnordNatTag (Maybe (Maybe x)); };
08:30:09 <zzo38> It does seem to work; it is not really unordered but the larger number must come first so it acts like just two natural numbers put in one box where you don't know the order
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08:38:57 <zzo38> getUNP :: UnordNatPair -> (Integer, Integer); getUNP (Z :=> Nothing) = (0, 0); getUNP (S x :=> Nothing) = (\(a, b) -> (succ a, b)) $ getUNP (x :=> Nothing); getUNP (S x :=> Just y) = (\(a, b) -> (succ a, succ b)) $ getUNP (x :=> y);
08:39:47 <zzo38> putUNP :: (Integer, Integer) -> UnordNatPair; putUNP (0, 0) = (Z :=> Nothing); putUNP (x, y) | x < 0 || y < 0 = error "Cannot use negative numbers here"; putUNP (x, y) | x < y = putUNP (y, x); putUNP (x, 0) = case (putUNP (pred x, 0)) of { (Z :=> Nothing) -> (S Z :=> Nothing); (S a :=> Nothing) -> (S (S a) :=> Nothing); }; putUNP (x, y) = case (putUNP (pred x, pred y)) of { (Z :=> b) -> (S Z :=> Just b); (S a :=> b) -> (S (S a) :=> Just b); };
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09:01:19 <zzo38> My brother called mahjong players that called sequences a lot, a "chii"ter
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09:08:39 <kmc> what's that
09:09:08 <kmc> is it delicious
09:13:40 <shubshub> Ihave a huge fejoa tree in my yard
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09:44:21 <pikhq_> Why am I good at being awake at unreasonable hours?
09:45:16 <pikhq_> Least desirable skill.
09:45:27 <pikhq_> Am I turning into elliott?
09:45:52 <pikhq_> I've got the "awake at stupid hours and complaining about it" bit down, at least.
09:46:03 * shubshub should start playing dwarf fortress
09:46:25 <pikhq_> Also the hubris. But that just comes with being a programmer.
09:46:38 <shubshub> How is that useful :P and whats hubris?
09:47:49 <shubshub> Phantom_Hoover: how is playing dwarf fortress a usefull skill?
09:48:14 <Phantom_Hoover> suppose you find yourself stuck in the wilderness with 6 other dwarves and a wagon full of supplies
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09:48:51 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: I suffer from miasma.
09:49:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Ngevd, do you feel you could survive indefinitely given only a square of lightless dirt, one plump helmet seed and a rock.
09:50:08 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover, probably
09:50:28 <Ngevd> Assuming I had some space next to the dirt
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09:50:48 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Can't farm that seed without a hoe and a water block.
09:51:05 <Ngevd> pikhq_, it's dirt, you can use your hands
09:51:22 <Ngevd> pikhq_, and Plump Helmets are pretty hardy
09:51:34 <Phantom_Hoover> You only need water for bare cave floors, and moving it to the farm should always be a colossal undertaking.
09:51:57 <pikhq_> The only dwarves I like are in Boatmurdered.
09:52:00 <Ngevd> My advice is don't try to make an underground fishing plaza
09:53:50 <shubshub> aaaaah that Peaceful Dragon Quest 9 Music ATLAST :D
09:54:53 <shubshub> Maybe DQH Rocket slimes is better then :P
09:55:27 <shubshub> Dragon Quest Heroes Rocket Slimes FTW
10:00:15 <itidus21> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGA7kGPEVPE "Drunk teacher"
10:01:13 <Ngevd> All of my fortresses that have ended for reasons other than boredom or goblins, have ended due to underground fishing plazas
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11:17:26 <kmc> shachaf: i'm playing with perf now
11:21:01 <kmc> kind of insane to run a short test program and see "98,469,751,820 instructions"
11:21:08 <kmc> i'm still not really used to how fast computers are
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11:39:07 <nortti> sasl still requires a bit of tweaking (you can't use autoconnect) but I have moustly solved my problems like irssi crashing
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12:13:37 <Ngevd> I'm in a Taneb mood
12:13:39 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
12:14:07 <HackEgo> :mt"4}*.J<,C.).Y?;H.sܭ~~Fv..$:..|]&.}Dt7C9.Sl-O9.Ӝ.O-g[XPwU{%.|,.tvڛ3q.ZeQ.ie=hߑ..e2w8M2ND/ZWj/.'a.*{t..6.؋2f7tZayj.%5d$ʠKK..PyEqnhS*f"4..uI.pvqI.fe. \ HÚNO.K1u.5M&g.
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12:17:04 <Taneb> `learn Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask.
12:18:51 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things?
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12:59:29 <kmc> shachaf: i'm unable to reproduce the performance hit on my other atom machine :/
12:59:52 <kmc> and stack protector does not make a large difference in the number of branches or branch mispredictions
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13:53:50 <cheater__> kmc: maybe one of your machines is compiled for atom's funny machine code and not for x86?
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13:56:36 <kmc> what's that cheater__?
13:56:42 <kmc> do you mean LPIA?
13:57:11 <cheater__> no idea, i remember atom has its own set of instructions that it translatex x86 to
13:57:57 <kmc> i think you're thinking of lpia
13:58:15 <kmc> which isn't really a different instruction set, just a different set of optimization options
13:58:21 <kmc> as i understand it
13:58:44 <kmc> was supported by ubuntu for a little while, but it never took off and got desupported
13:58:47 <cheater__> i thought atom was actually some sort of risced thing
13:59:00 <cheater__> yeah, i heard they shut it down when it brought no improvement at all
13:59:36 <kmc> i mean all (?) x86 implementations use microcode
13:59:58 <kmc> you can sort of consider that 'translating to RISC' but Atom is not special in this regard, afaik
14:00:20 <cheater__> yeah but you can't normally feed the cpu its microcode
14:00:35 <kmc> sometimes you can upload new microcode
14:00:41 <kmc> to fix bugs with particular instructions, or add new ones
14:00:55 <cheater__> can you do that on any desktop intels
14:01:06 <kmc> but that's more like redefining a single instruction; you can't upload an arbitrarily long stream of microcode and say "execute this" afaik
14:01:37 <cheater__> is that because of the pentium floating point mult fiasco
14:01:55 <kmc> hm I doubt that would be fixable in microcode anyway
14:01:56 <kmc> but i don't know
14:03:24 <cheater__> so what are you trying to do on atom?
14:03:40 <cheater__> sounds like something being done for work
14:05:04 <kmc> Transmeta implemented x86 with a software JIT sort of thing and a chip with their own VLIW architecture
14:05:24 <cheater__> or is it a super duper secret ksploracle project you're working on
14:05:43 <kmc> and of course you can JIT x86 to RISC architectures not explicitly designed for it
14:05:46 <kmc> using qemu
14:06:17 <cheater__> i like how qemu does every thing you can imagine
14:06:30 <kmc> and the Loongson 3 variant of MIPS has a bunch of extra instructions to make that JITted code faster
14:06:36 <kmc> specifically for x86
14:06:43 <kmc> i don't work for ksploracle
14:07:06 <kmc> lately i have been working on http://mosh.mit.edu/
14:07:11 <kmc> as a volunteer / open source thing
14:07:41 <cheater__> the only thing i've been doing lately is working out
14:07:47 <kmc> one thing i did was add automatic binary hardening -- stack protector, position independent code, etc.
14:07:51 <cheater__> i should start doing like, geeky stuff again
14:07:59 <kmc> and so I wanted to see how much performance this cost
14:08:05 <kmc> and one of my test machines was this atom netbook
14:08:35 <kmc> and it got a surprisingly large hit from stack protector
14:08:42 <kmc> and I'm not sure why
14:08:46 <kmc> so that's what I'm trying to figure out
14:10:04 <kmc> turning on all the hardening cost like 29% on the netbook
14:10:36 <cheater__> how much was it on a normal pc thing
14:10:55 <kmc> 17% on another 32-bit Atom system
14:11:09 <kmc> 4% on my Core 2 Duo laptop
14:11:20 <kmc> 2% on my Phenom II desktop
14:11:36 <kmc> it's expected that position-independent code has a 5-10% performance penalty on 32-bit x86
14:11:50 <cheater__> have you thought that maybe it's just a constant amount of performance being eaten
14:12:04 <cheater__> and since an atom has overall much less performance that constant amount is a higher percentage
14:12:24 <kmc> but I'm not sure why stack protector should have another 20% on top of that, for the one atom only
14:12:27 <kmc> yeah, that might be
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14:17:34 <kmc> comparing the speeds of the two atom machines just about accounts for 29% vs 17% hit
14:17:45 <kmc> but on the former, like 80% of the performance hit goes away if you disable stack protector
14:17:55 <kmc> and on the latter only like 40%
14:19:00 <kmc> but it's all a bit iffy
14:19:06 <kmc> there are various other differences, like GCC version
14:23:23 <kmc> i'm not trying to do rigorous science here
14:23:33 <kmc> just to get an idea of how much it costs us
14:23:49 <kmc> really that's already settled and I'm just writing up a blog post for other people who want to add hardening to their autoconf projects
14:27:27 <kmc> cheater__: mosh supports 256 colors, if the outer terminal does
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14:36:31 <kmc> i mainly use it for irssi
14:36:58 <cheater__> i tire of chatting in fixed fonts quickly
14:37:22 <kmc> whereas i swiched from xchat to irssi so i could have a persistent session over mosh :)
14:37:33 <cheater__> http://www.dangerousmusic.com/ass.html
14:37:35 <kmc> gotta do the same for aim / gchat
14:37:51 <cheater__> yeah i kinda don't give a fuck about that
14:38:12 <cheater__> it's mostly, look on irc, see if you can have fun for n minutes, leave
14:38:26 <cheater__> having scrollback is useful but only marginally
14:38:55 <kmc> i've been on connections which are too shit to connect to irc at all
14:38:59 <kmc> but mosh works ok
14:39:15 <kmc> also if you're in the middle of a conversation and need to switch from wifi to cell or such
14:39:18 <kmc> then the roaming is nice
14:39:28 <cheater__> that it works better than irc that is
14:39:46 <kmc> yeah, IRC is TCP-based
14:39:56 <kmc> TCP does not do well with non-congestive packet loss
14:40:39 <cheater__> kmc: would you put these in your house http://hifiheroin.blogspot.de/2012/04/munich-high-end-2012-preview.html
14:40:45 <kmc> and it will drop entirely if you go too long without an ack
14:41:04 <kmc> whereas a mosh session will survive arbitrarily long and will come back within 3 seconds if the network comes up
14:41:32 <kmc> i can take my laptop on the subway and use my mosh sessions for the one bit where it comes out of the ground to go over the bridge between Boston and Cambridge
14:41:43 <cheater__> is 3 seconds a built in delay or something?
14:41:43 <kmc> that's the heartbeat packet interval
14:48:41 <Sgeo> kmc, the mobile shell, or something else?
14:48:51 <Sgeo> (See? I did Google!)
14:48:53 <kmc> cheater__: speaking of qemu have you used ubuntu's magical qemulated chroots?
14:49:17 <kmc> Sgeo: i'm talking about http://mosh.mit.edu/
14:49:26 <Sgeo> kmc, ah, so yes
14:51:51 <Sgeo> No Windows client :(
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14:55:01 <Sgeo> " The heartbeats allow Mosh to inform the user when it hasn't heard from the server in a while (unlike SSH, where users may be unaware of a dropped connection until they try to type)."
14:55:03 <Sgeo> I love it already
14:55:08 <kmc> mosh-1.2 works in Cygwin, maybe
14:55:17 <kmc> some people say it does, some say it doesn't
14:55:36 <kmc> the core mosh team doesn't use Windows
14:56:08 * ais523 tries to explain the may bank holiday to non-british people
14:56:32 <ais523> (elliott and ngevd, when they logread this, will understand why that's amusing)
14:56:45 <ais523> (or maybe not, if they assume that every country works like that)
14:56:53 <kmc> what's the amusing part?
14:57:33 <ais523> kmc: it's a holiday that doesn't commemorate anything
14:57:42 <ais523> most countries have too many holidays to celebrate one thing or another
14:58:00 <ais523> the UK doesn't have enough, so it adds a couple at convenient times of year just because people need a holiday
14:58:12 <kmc> so it's not a May Day labour thing?
14:58:25 <ais523> well, hmm, perhaps it was originally, I'll check wikipedia
14:59:23 <Sgeo> :Q: Does mosh work with Amazon EC2?
14:59:23 <Sgeo> Yes, it works great, but please remember to open up UDP ports 6000061000 on the EC2 firewall.:
14:59:39 <ais523> hmm, seems it was originally created by merging 8¼ saint's days (on average) and the day after whitsun
14:59:43 <Sgeo> Did I seriously use : as a quote character?
14:59:50 <Sgeo> And why does mosh need so many ports?
14:59:54 <cheater__> kmc: what are magical qemulated chroots good for?
15:00:08 <ais523> in an attempt to cut down on the excessive number of saint's days
15:00:08 <kmc> US labor day is pretty decoupled from actual labor stuff for most people
15:00:15 <kmc> but this may reflect my white-collar upbringing
15:00:23 <kmc> Sgeo: it doesn't need them all at once, just one per session
15:00:39 <ais523> oh, wait, no, that's late spring bank holiday
15:00:44 <kmc> mosh-server picks the first available port in that range
15:00:53 <ais523> first monday in may is a purely arbitrary one indeed
15:01:09 <kmc> so if you only need 5 concurrent sessions, you only need open 5 ports
15:01:25 <kmc> ais523: cool
15:01:33 <kmc> i think japan has some holidays like that too
15:01:41 <ais523> and was only added in 1978; surprisingly recent
15:02:05 <cheater__> kmc: why doesn't it reuse the port
15:02:39 <kmc> there is no persistent mosh daemon
15:02:54 <kmc> each session launches its own mosh-server process
15:03:10 <kmc> they could be different users running different versions of mosh-server they compiled separately
15:03:20 <kmc> and so the easiest way to get packets to the right place is for each session to use its own port
15:04:31 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_holidays_in_Japan
15:05:33 <kmc> Massachusetts has one extra official public holiday compared to the US federal govt
15:05:40 <kmc> this year it fell on Tax Day
15:17:24 <ais523> kmc: holiday clashes are impossible in the UK
15:17:35 <ais523> this sometimes leads to Christmas being moved to dec 26, if it would naturally fall on a sunday
15:17:41 <ais523> (and thus boxing day moved to dec 27)
15:17:48 <ais523> although everyone celebrates it on dec 25 anyway
15:18:54 <shachaf> I'm not sure what *that* means.
15:19:02 <ais523> I didn't think you would be
15:19:07 <ais523> but it means hi, sort of
15:19:13 <kmc> shachaf: fun enough
15:19:19 <ais523> probably only elliott could get it, and that doesn't mean he /would/
15:19:34 <ais523> as it involves cross-referencing multiple inside mems
15:19:36 <cheater__> kmc: that's not the simplest, it's just the laziest
15:19:54 <kmc> oh yeah cheater__?
15:20:00 <cheater__> imo simplest is for mosh to use a shared resource
15:20:26 <kmc> a shared resource installed by a sysadmin? that's a non-starter for a lot of our users
15:20:56 <cheater__> no, you can have the process instantiate one locally if it's not found system-wide
15:21:00 <kmc> a big selling point of mosh is that you can compile it in your homedir and use it right away without any administrative intervention
15:21:08 <kmc> cheater__: local for that user only?
15:21:18 <kmc> so you still have the problem of multiple ports
15:21:39 <kmc> and you've added significant complexity to make this agent relay packets around
15:21:39 <cheater__> so one user ends up using one port at most
15:21:40 <cheater__> and at the least, all users just use one port
15:21:43 <kmc> for what gain?
15:21:58 <cheater__> you only have the problem in a fairly stupid situation
15:22:27 <cheater__> one which happens but does not happen to often
15:22:33 <cheater__> so kmc, you never told me what those qemu'ed chroots were good for
15:22:48 <kmc> what stupid situation?
15:22:49 <kmc> yeah cheater__
15:22:54 <cheater__> or a 32 bit chroot on a 64 bit system?
15:23:07 <kmc> you run a simple command or two and you get a chroot full of ARM binaries on an x86 Linux machine
15:23:11 <kmc> which automatically execute through qemu
15:23:12 <cheater__> the stupid situation is that there's no system-wide support for mosh
15:23:24 <cheater__> which only ever happens on multiuser systems
15:23:39 <cheater__> and let's be honest here, it's not like people do this sort of thing these days
15:23:39 <kmc> but they talk to your real kernel, not some emulated ARM machine
15:23:52 <cheater__> it's not like people run their BitchX from grex.org anymore
15:24:19 <cheater__> or try to hack the modified bsd kernel of cyberspace.org to be able to run 'drops
15:24:31 <kmc> as a mosh developer i'm really glad that Mosh doesn't have a persistent daemon or anything setuid / setgid or anything that runs as root
15:24:44 <cheater__> well you don't need to have a persistent daemon
15:24:46 <kmc> i'm reluctant to throw that away for the cause of saving a few UDP ports
15:24:53 <kmc> since there's 2^16 of them
15:24:56 <cheater__> you just have the first one that starts up handle everything
15:25:02 <cheater__> and persist until everything quits
15:25:10 <kmc> anyway I still don't see what problem this solves really
15:25:14 <kmc> it's certainly not the simplest solution
15:25:34 <cheater__> ideally you just want a single port
15:26:25 <kmc> schroot itself is also pretty slick
15:26:37 <kmc> it's used for the debian package build infrastructure, among other things
15:26:49 <kmc> a nice way to enter chroots and also have ephemeral copy-on-write clones of existing chroots
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15:28:49 <kmc> cheater__ i don't see why you said "your solution is not simplest, just laziest" and then proceeded to describe a solution which is emphatically less simple, though it has certain advantages
15:29:03 <ais523> main advantage to a single port is that it's easier to firewall
15:29:10 <kmc> i guess in general the way engineers argue is they pick different definitions of the word "simple"
15:29:41 <cheater__> kmc: it's the simplest from the user's point of view
15:29:53 <cheater__> it's not the simplest from the developer's point of view
15:30:17 <kmc> it's better from the user's view, but arguably more complicated
15:30:27 <kmc> because you still need to explain about port ranges, in the multi-user case
15:30:39 <kmc> and you also need to explain about this extra daemon that stays running
15:30:49 <kmc> and about the unix socket or whatever it uses to talk to the mosh-servers
15:32:36 <kmc> i know corporate IT security doesn't like to open too many ports
15:33:02 <kmc> but is identifying a mosh session by a UDP port number really any worse than identifying it with a 16-bit number immediately inside the UDP packet?
15:33:18 <ais523> kmc: not beyond the firewall
15:33:33 <ais523> but configuring it correctly is awkward because many firewalls don't have obvious support for port ranges
15:33:57 <kmc> arguably the port number is better for security; it's easier to correlate port numbers with users and mosh-server processes
15:34:34 <kmc> i guess that's so
15:35:10 <kmc> my firewall config is just an iptables shell script and so i used a shell loop :)
15:35:16 <kmc> (though i think iptables also has range support)
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15:46:12 <cheater__> multiple ports is just very impractical
15:46:21 <cheater__> and it's not like explaining my scheme is that difficult
15:47:39 <cheater__> "mosh will use a single port for all sessions if it can, but it might have to use more ports due to permissions. You can read about the exact scheme in [7]."
15:47:53 <cheater__> 99.999999999% of all people using it will not need to read [7]
15:48:42 <kmc> even if every person on earth is a Mosh user, only 7% of one person will need to read that link
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15:59:05 <kmc> anyway it's not impossible we will implement some kind of multiplexer
15:59:47 <kmc> i think what's more likely is that we'll use hole punching techniques (as do Skype and many other applications) to make both directions of UDP traffic look "outgoing" to firewalls
16:05:06 <cheater__> kmc: do you think there's an actual real reason to use quemu chroots?
16:05:07 <cheater__> i'm thinking, the one thing i am missing with linuxes right now is the ability to migrate a 32 bit system to 64 bit
16:05:07 <cheater__> it really really sucks there isn't anything to do it
16:05:08 <cheater__> so maybe this sort of thing is necessary
16:07:03 <kmc> i used it for testing and debugging the ARM build of Mosh
16:07:08 <kmc> on my amd64 desktop
16:07:20 <kmc> this was much more pleasant than using a whole system emulated arm system
16:07:23 <kmc> which i have also done
16:07:49 <kmc> qemu is not necessary for running 32-bit binaries on 64-bit kernel of the same architecture family, usually
16:08:29 <kmc> disabling 32-bit compat on a multi-user system is a savvy security move
16:08:34 <kmc> but i don't think many people do it
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16:12:28 <cheater__> yeah but still, you can't migrate 32 bit to 64 bit
16:13:01 <kmc> what do you mean by "migrate" exactly
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16:16:06 <qfr> http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/3981354_460s.jpg oh really?
16:17:20 -!- cheater has joined.
16:17:48 <kmc> cheater: what do you mean by "migrate" exactly
16:18:14 <cheater> i have a computer with an OS which i installed with a 32 bit ubuntu dvd
16:18:26 <cheater> i want it to start using 64 bit versions of everything
16:35:56 <Sgeo> I'm a Cadaeic! I'm a Cadaeic! I'm a real Cadaeic!
16:37:29 <kmc> cheater: ok
16:37:34 <kmc> that's a package manager problem i guess
16:37:44 <kmc> i wonder if debian's new multiarch support helps
16:38:07 <kmc> i don't know if it has a way to "pivot" which binary is actually stored at /bin/ls or whatever
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18:05:56 <nortti> Power plug of my computer fell off when I was updating slitaz. Now it doesn't want to boor
18:06:43 <olsner> you may need to plug in the power again
18:09:47 <nortti> olsner: i have done that
18:10:37 <nortti> olsner: it boots to grub and starts loading and then it panics
18:11:30 <olsner> maybe you can ease it up against a wall, that's what you do with panicking horses apparently
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18:27:45 <Gregor> I almost want to `addquote <nortti> Power plug of my computer fell off when I was updating slitaz. Now it doesn't want to boot <olsner> you may need to plug in the power again
18:28:40 <Gregor> It's too obvious. It's not an especially #esoteric joke.
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18:53:50 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 6 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:56:34 <elliott> ten minutes and many hours
18:57:10 <Gregor> If we assume PM, you were in fact only ten minutes off for me.
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19:28:01 <olsner> hmm, my ability to differentiate the words terrific and terrible is deteriorating
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19:30:05 <elliott> Ngevd: How's your roguelike?
19:30:34 <Ngevd> I haven't worked out how to simulateneously render something and input characters!
19:30:48 <elliott> You render the screen, and then you wait for character input.
19:31:13 <olsner> use threads, and you can also simultaneously crash terrifibly unreliably
19:31:15 <elliott> (You probably want to use a terminal library like one of the curses bindings or vty if you're not.)
19:31:26 <Ngevd> Yeah, I'll look into that
19:31:32 <Ngevd> I DO MANY THINGS NOW
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19:31:52 <elliott> (Note that some of the curses bindings are awful.)
19:31:53 <Ngevd> Including what is now the second-best chess game for the 0x10c CPU
19:32:12 <elliott> (vty might be the best option, even if it is kind of gross.)
19:33:42 <oklopol> i had this girlfriend who lived in kuopio and was going to move to turku
19:33:52 <oklopol> and now i have this girlfriend who lived in turku and moved to kuopio
19:33:58 <oklopol> and they are fucking neighbors
19:34:23 <oklopol> they don't know each other, and have no links.
19:34:28 <Ngevd> Are you the neighbors?
19:34:34 <olsner> oklopol: you are a link
19:34:42 <olsner> oklopol: introduce them
19:35:02 <oklopol> "hello ex, this is why i left you"
19:35:33 <oklopol> i just wanted to drive 800km to show you.
19:36:03 <olsner> then they will knife-fight to the death (as all finns do) and you will take the winner
19:36:20 <elliott> olsner: Are you sure you weren't born Finnish?
19:36:31 <olsner> you don't have to drive all the way though, you can just tell them "hey, she's your neighbor now!"
19:36:32 <Lumpio-> Nothing wrong with some finnish
19:37:03 <elliott> Finns use ridiculous smilies like (￣ー￣).
19:37:33 <oklopol> olsner: i'm going there this weekend. i'm sure this will be fun.
19:37:47 <nortti> elliott: that is aproximaltely how out face looks like
19:38:31 <Ngevd> elliott, you're like that person in that book I'm reading by that person who Phantom_Hoover is disappointed by his appearance due to it not being recursive enough
19:39:02 <elliott> Ngevd: Is that the book I think it is?
19:39:32 <Ngevd> elliott, that would depend on which book you think it is.
19:39:48 <elliott> I will just leave http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Chris_Pressey#G.C3.B6del.2C_Escher.2C_Bach:_An_Eternal_Golden_Braid here.
19:39:52 <Ngevd> Are you thinking of The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge?
19:40:40 <Ngevd> One, you live in my local area
19:40:46 <Ngevd> Two, you have EYES EVERYWHERE
19:40:57 <Ngevd> Three, I am currently reading The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge
19:41:08 <elliott> I'm going to have to move away from Ngevd. :'(
19:41:27 * elliott tries to figure out where the recursion comes in.
19:42:28 <olsner> next to the review of wolfram's book, I just can't figure out what level of sarcasm/irony/parody that GEB review is written with
19:43:07 <elliott> Has anyone ever ended a serious statement with "!!1!"?
19:43:32 <olsner> yes, I'm sure someone has
19:44:08 <elliott> Ah yes, that's what Chris thought of the Dragon Book: "The classic, borderline-incomprehensible book on compiler construction".
19:44:18 <olsner> Has anyone ever ended a retorical question with?
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19:44:54 <elliott> coppro: Who's Noé Rubinstein?
19:45:05 -!- Ngevd has joined.
19:45:13 <elliott> Never mind, Gmail answered my question first.
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19:47:05 <Ngevd> "The robot stood as stolid as a statue"
19:47:54 <Ngevd> Harry Harrison really needs a better editor
19:48:49 <olsner> Ngevd: stolid is a word that can be used in a sentence just like that
19:49:13 <olsner> it even makes sense, although statues aren't necessarily stolid
19:49:21 <olsner> good statues probably aren't
19:49:50 <olsner> terrifibly stillily stolid
19:50:33 <elliott> Ngevd: I'm bored. You should play Crawl so I can watch and laugh.
19:51:06 <Ngevd> elliott, I'm currently using Windows for stilly and friviltous treasons
19:51:29 <Ngevd> Can you stream with PuTTY?
19:51:34 <Ngevd> I thought it could only recieve
19:51:37 <elliott> Yes, you play on the server.
19:51:47 <elliott> Which then streams it for you (and also lets people send messages).
19:52:06 <Ngevd> Okay, running PuTTY
19:52:13 <elliott> crawl.develz.org, port 345
19:54:43 <olsner> basically you telnet to it and it appears in your terminal? sort of like how telnet works?
19:54:45 <elliott> It's sometimes a bit laggy. But then it isn't.
19:55:21 <elliott> olsner: It lets other people watch.
19:55:34 <elliott> Ngevd: Go for Minotaur or Troll or something.
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19:55:43 <elliott> If you want something overpowered enough to let you survive on pure luck. :p
19:56:00 -!- Ngevd has joined.
19:56:07 <elliott> Ngevd: Go for Minotaur or Troll or something.
19:56:10 <elliott> If you want something overpowered enough to let you survive on pure luck. :p
19:56:38 <elliott> Fighter or Berserker would complete the overpowered-melee-fighter combo.
19:57:02 <elliott> Ngevd: You know about vikeys, right?
19:57:15 <elliott> Don't use the arrow keys, you'll die, because you can't do diagonals.
19:57:22 <elliott> If you have a number pad you can use that.
19:57:26 <elliott> Otherwise it's hjkl/yubn to move.
19:57:36 <elliott> Also, the two more useful keys are o and tab.
19:58:13 <elliott> Ngevd: You should chop that corpse.
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20:00:12 <elliott> (You might want to adjust the skills you're training by pressing m.)
20:00:24 <elliott> (Turning off everything but axes would be reasonable.)
20:01:02 <elliott> Crawl's skills settings are kind of complicated.
20:01:42 <elliott> Ngevd: You're still using the arrow keys, aren't you. :(
20:02:57 <Ngevd> I just forget about diagonals
20:03:11 <elliott> Ngevd: Did you leave that scroll there on the previous level?
20:03:15 <elliott> (Ctrl+F scroll <return> to check.)
20:03:28 <elliott> Try a. to go back there and pick it up.
20:03:40 <oerjan> hm it appears that DMM has filled up the LMOO queue by drawing other other people
20:03:54 <elliott> (The advantage of using o rather than walking around manually, apart from being less tedious, is that it makes sure you don't miss picking anything up>0
20:04:50 <elliott> You should chop corpses after killing them with "c", unless they show up as green text. (So you can eat them when you get hungry.)
20:05:52 <elliott> Eating is... a bad idea when you're in combat.
20:06:29 <elliott> 21:05 <Gretell> Taneb the Shield-Bearer (L3 MiFi), blasted by Sigmund (magic dart) in D:3, with 91 points after 1086 turns and 0:08:54.
20:13:07 <Ngevd> Well, neither Vty nor hscurses want to install
20:18:56 <elliott> vty should be easier to install.
20:19:26 <nortti> Ngevd: what are you trying to do?
20:21:10 <Ngevd> elliott, http://hpaste.org/68200
20:21:42 <elliott> I think there might be a curses binding on Hackage that works with PDCurses. Maybe.
20:22:09 <elliott> Oh, it's http://hackage.haskell.org/package/nanocurses. But that package has been broken for years.
20:25:49 <zzo38> If you are writiing a roguelike, a few things to consider are: * Separate front-end and back-end * PC/NPC unification * If using Haskell, the "extensible-data" package
20:29:05 <nortti> http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2010/05/18/lets-use-a-methaphor-charlie-and-his-car/
20:30:48 <elliott> Challenge: Write introductory paragraph that can start no blog post of value. Submission: "Few weeks ago I posted a rant about stupid people not knowing how to internet. Most of the readers could relate, but some folks criticized me for being elitist. I’m pretty sure these people were just trolling but I guess they were successful enough to make me want to revisit this post."
20:32:02 <elliott> Ngevd: Anyway, you could just...
20:32:05 <elliott> Ngevd: I dunno, use SDL or something.
20:32:14 <elliott> Or write it in Python, that has libtcod bindings. :p
20:54:29 <Ngevd> I was using ansi-terminal, but input is dodhy?
20:55:55 <elliott> ansi-terminal can't do the kind of things you'd want.
20:56:08 <elliott> I suppose you could just redraw the entire screen each time... :p
20:57:15 <olsner> elliott: thanks, you just made me not read nortti's link
20:57:35 <elliott> olsner: But now you've missed out. :(
20:57:58 <Ngevd> That blog is awful
20:58:22 <elliott> You can miss out on awful things, too!
20:58:25 <nortti> Ngevd: why do you think so
20:58:48 <Ngevd> Because Charlie is an awful name!
20:59:06 <elliott> Ngevd: Did you know that every teenager consumes porn?
20:59:07 <elliott> http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2012/05/02/is-your-teen-browsing-the-pr0n/
20:59:07 <olsner> now I just need to learn how to internet, to make sure that blog poster doesn't make fun of me
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20:59:22 <elliott> Ngevd's cover is blast wide open.
20:59:23 <Ngevd> elliott, FSVO porn
20:59:29 <HackEgo> blacksun1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:00:07 <Ngevd> I occasionally have disturbing deviantArt binges
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22:38:25 <Gregor> <Ngevd> I occasionally have disturbing deviantArt binges <elliott> TELL US NO MORE
22:38:46 <Gregor> Welp, time to look up "pony" on Deviant Art and see how many pages I have to go through 'til I get to pony porn.
22:39:50 <elliott> Gregor: That's some cover you have there.
22:39:59 <elliott> How long have you been waiting for a tangentially-related IRC discussion to reply to with that?
22:40:47 <Gregor> I was going to say that right now regardless, it was merely happy happenstance that it vaguely fit a previous conversation.
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22:49:18 <Gregor> <Lumpio-> ( ﾟ∀ﾟ) // I honestly can't make heads or tails of this smiley.
22:49:25 <Gregor> Is it smiling? Freaked out? A bird?
22:50:24 <elliott> It looks like the O RLY owl to me.
22:50:27 <Gregor> That's pretty understandable.
22:50:45 -!- variable has changed nick to const.
22:52:16 <Lumpio-> http://shoppies-img.jp/res_items3/746/7465945/PT_110601202610190.jpg
22:52:35 <Lumpio-> I guess an exaggerated version of ( °▽°)
22:52:36 <elliott> My system's rendering of it is better.
22:52:43 <elliott> The dors are wider than just the dot, and to the left of the character.
22:53:21 <Lumpio-> Yeah that's a pretty odd rendering
22:53:30 <Lumpio-> They're not dots, they're degree signs.
22:53:41 <elliott> Degree signs are just dots with ego.
22:53:43 <Lumpio-> They're supposed to be circles.
22:54:09 <elliott> They turn into hollow circles when I increase the font size.
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22:54:23 <Lumpio-> Just leave it on the higher setting from now on
22:54:30 <elliott> It's hard to display the hollowness without distorting the sizes at a font size like that.
22:54:38 <elliott> Lumpio-: I already interpreted it as a circle.
22:54:49 <elliott> Lumpio-: Also, that is a different character.
22:54:54 <Lumpio-> Maybe you should change fonts
22:54:57 <elliott> That one renders as larger and more hollow here.
22:55:44 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZG51cQ Compare your original smiley to your "So you can see my" line.
22:55:59 <Lumpio-> It's not a degree sign, it's a half-width handakuten mark
22:56:48 <Lumpio-> (Which should also preferably be a circle, mind you)
22:57:05 <elliott> It is a circle, just a small one.
22:57:05 <Lumpio-> ugh, mozc's standard dictionary uses a full-width handakuten mark for those
22:57:22 <Lumpio-> Yeah but the proportions are off.
22:57:23 <elliott> Japanese text isn't really well-suited to this font size on displays with standard pixels per inch.
22:57:43 <elliott> (Even though this display has an above-average PPI.)
22:57:45 <Lumpio-> My font size is the same or smaller tbh
22:58:00 <elliott> It would probably be better at this size with more hinting.
22:58:12 <Lumpio-> Yeah, full hinting is a must.
22:58:18 <elliott> But I don't use Japanese on IRC, so :p
22:58:22 <Lumpio-> Otherwise it's just black blobs.
22:59:01 <Lumpio-> Enjoy your blobs then I guess
22:59:09 <Lumpio-> Full hinting + stroke elimination is a must for small text
22:59:47 <Lumpio-> On my resolution even 書 has enough horizontal lines to require stroke elimination
23:00:00 <elliott> If there's any justice, increasing PPI will obsolete that (and antialiasing) soon enough.
23:00:02 <elliott> (There isn't any justice, though.)
23:00:14 <elliott> (Especially since most OSes are woefully badly-equipped to handle larger PPIs.)
23:00:28 <Lumpio-> (Let me guess, "except OSX")
23:00:36 <elliott> No, OS X is terrible at it.
23:00:51 <elliott> OS X just assumes everything is 100 PPI and uses bitmap images for most things.
23:01:00 <Lumpio-> Anyways PPI hasn't increased on your usual laptop displays for years
23:01:12 <Lumpio-> Consumers seem to be content with "full HD"
23:01:29 <Lumpio-> Hard to find displays with better resolution.
23:02:05 <elliott> This display is ~128 PPI, which is nice. (1440x900 at 13")
23:02:07 <Lumpio-> Actually I doubt most desktop displays go higher than that either.
23:02:20 <pikhq_> 96 DPI is still standard. Alas.
23:02:32 <elliott> My other laptop is the same size but 1366x768, which is smaller than I would like.
23:02:47 <Lumpio-> LVDS1 connected 1440x900+1920+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 367mm x 229mm
23:03:02 <Lumpio-> I wonder if xrandr can calculate DPI for me, too lazy to
23:03:33 <elliott> "578 characters were initially added, though some characters unsuitable for names such as 怨 (grudge, resent), 痔 (haemorrhoids) and 屍 (corpse) were removed as a result of public feedback."
23:03:50 <elliott> You mean I can't call my kid Grudge Haemorrhoidscorpse?
23:04:07 <elliott> So much for free speech. :(
23:04:53 <Lumpio-> I don't think that would go through in most countries...
23:04:54 <pikhq_> elliott: You still can.
23:05:13 <pikhq_> It just can't be 痔屍 怨.
23:05:20 <pikhq_> You'll have to spell it out.
23:06:20 <pikhq_> グラッジ ヘモロイヅコープす morelike
23:07:14 <Lumpio-> Or KURAJI HEMOROIDOKOUPUSU
23:07:36 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: Nonono. Kuraji HEMOROIDOKOUPUSU
23:07:41 <Lumpio-> Yeah, google translate doesn't do it justice
23:07:41 <elliott> "Piles of corpses of resentment"
23:07:47 <elliott> Well, that's my new metal album name.
23:07:53 <Lumpio-> pikhq_: ...I capitalize randomly because Japan doesn't have capitalization.
23:08:14 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: When you romanise names, if you do all-caps, the bit in all-caps is a last name.
23:08:19 <elliott> 悪の宇宙へようこそハローお名前とご住所を記入してください。
23:08:30 <Lumpio-> pikhq_: ...I capitalize randomly because Japan doesn't have capitalization.
23:08:34 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: When you romanise names, if you do all-caps, the bit in all-caps is a last name.
23:08:36 <Lumpio-> pikhq_: ...I capitalize randomly because Japan doesn't have capitalization.
23:08:37 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: When you romanise names, if you do all-caps, the bit in all-caps is a last name.
23:08:37 <elliott> 悪の宇宙へようこそハローお名前とご住所を記入してください。
23:08:40 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: When you romanise names, if you do all-caps, the bit in all-caps is a last name.
23:08:43 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: When you romanise names, if you do all-caps, the bit in all-caps is a last name.
23:08:46 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: When you romanise names, if you do all-caps, the bit in all-caps is a last name.
23:08:49 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: When you romanise names, if you do all-caps, the bit in all-caps is a last name.
23:08:51 <Lumpio-> I reject your reality and substitute my own.
23:08:52 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: When you romanise names, if you do all-caps, the bit in all-caps is a last name.
23:08:55 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: When you romanise names, if you do all-caps, the bit in all-caps is a last name.
23:08:58 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: When you romanise names, if you do all-caps, the bit in all-caps is a last name.
23:09:01 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: When you romanise names, if you do all-caps, the bit in all-caps is a last name.
23:09:04 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: When you romanise names, if you do all-caps, the bit in all-caps is a last name.
23:09:07 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: When you romanise names, if you do all-caps, the bit in all-caps is a last name.
23:09:11 <Lumpio-> elliott: "Welcome to the space of evil, hello. Please write down your name and address"?
23:09:19 <elliott> 音声学アルカトラズは、オステオパシーの解釈の赦免をバカ-うねる。
23:09:51 <elliott> "Phonetics Alcatraz osteopathic moron-undulate exegesis pardoning."
23:10:00 <elliott> Through the filter of GOOGLE.
23:11:05 <Lumpio-> Phonetics Alcatraz stupid-twist the pardon of the analysis of osteopathy
23:11:20 <zzo38> pikhq_:That is what I eould have say. You have to use kana, only that specific kanji disallow
23:11:37 <elliott> Piles of Corpses of Resentment, by The Pardon of the Analysis of Osteopathy
23:13:18 <elliott> You have to admit, it's catchy.
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00:23:33 <Lumpio-> 501 HELO requires domain address
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00:29:54 <monqy> elliott: 17:29:46 <lambdabot> Plugin `tell' failed with: thread killed
00:30:09 <elliott> previously that's only happened to PH
00:30:21 <elliott> you got messages in ##crawl too (not from me)
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00:37:07 <shachaf> monqy: Is _Concrete Mathematics_ a good book?
00:44:28 <elliott> whoah, arcane sentiment started looking different
00:45:32 <elliott> "i can confirm that i am shock" - america
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01:24:10 <elliott> 02:23 <Lightli> Ok, so I was playing a Sonic the Hedgehog game made for the Sega Saturn. Anyways, the big bad in this one wasn't Eggman/Robotnik, it was the "Cow King". This "cow king" wore runed gauntlets, wore a fully functional tank for a suit of armour, and planned to conquer the world to open up the biggest hamburger factory ever. To beat him, I had to shoot Sonic out of a cannon built onto the final boss of Sonic 2 (obviously piloted
01:24:15 <elliott> monqy: ##crawl quality. ##crawlity.
01:24:22 <zzo38> data LeftCo m f x = forall z. LeftCo (f (m z) -> x) (f z); If m is monad, does this make a comonad? If m is monad, does this make a comonad transformer?
01:28:21 <monqy> elliott: about half the channel /ignores Lightli. the other half doesn't.
01:28:36 <elliott> 02:25 <Lightli> that the cow king was wearing. And this game was so popular they MADE a sequel wherein every sonic villain teamed up with Sonic and the Cow King to take on the Pig King, who had stolen things like the Statue of Liberty, the Longius Spear, and Albert Einstein without even using time travel.
01:28:37 <monqy> (i don't, of course)
01:28:49 <elliott> they sure are interesting!!
01:28:53 <shachaf> monqy: what perctnage of #esoteric /ignores me。
01:28:54 <elliott> wow they use webchat. make that *really* interesting
01:29:32 <zzo38> No channels are listed under WHOIS Lightli
01:29:57 <shachaf> zzo38: /whois on Freenode normally only lists channels that you share with the /whoisee
01:30:21 <shachaf> /whoisee in this channel is none of your business
01:30:31 <shachaf> Should that be "/whomisee"?
01:30:34 <ion> I don’t know about Freenode, but /whois generally hides channels that have the +s mode unless you’re there, too.
01:31:12 <zzo38> ion: Yes I think so, channel mode +s and possibly also user mode +i might do
01:31:14 <elliott> monqy: i think monqys-crawl should have 2x2 levels
01:31:23 <elliott> (what happens if you remove the walls)
01:31:30 <elliott> (can you walk into nothingness)
01:31:40 <elliott> ion: freenode sets +i for everyone by default.
01:31:47 <elliott> So you can almost never use /whois to spy on people.
01:32:47 <ion> Ah, forgot about +i.
01:33:03 <ion> I didn’t know it affects /whois, too.
01:33:39 <zzo38> The help file for this server only says "+i - Designates this client 'invisible'." under "umode"
01:35:35 <monqy> you can't move into the lvel boudnarys
01:35:41 <zzo38> What does the +p user mode mean? I get :verne.freenode.net NOTICE zzo38 :*** You need oper and the override flag for +p but what is override flag, and what does +p mode mean? Help file doesn't say what that mean
01:35:43 <monqy> which will be shown as rock
01:36:02 <monqy> except when they're not, like in some places they're "open sea" or endless lava
01:36:13 <monqy> where by endless i mean you can't move into it
01:36:16 <monqy> it just says it's endless
01:36:25 <ion> monqycrawl levels should have a topology that wraps over both axes.
01:36:43 <monqy> I don't want to muck with that part of crawl
01:36:46 <zzo38> Also, I get a 501 error for +k and -k and for +l but for -l I get no message.
01:36:53 <monqy> pathfinding and rendering and
01:37:25 <elliott> 02:37 <Lightli> ...I think I just accidently made a badIRC quote. BRB going to sleep
01:37:27 <zzo38> Play the game on a hex grid, or on a 3D grid, or a mobius strip grid, etc
01:37:30 <monqy> toroidal crawl "probably not worth the effort"
01:38:02 <zzo38> elliott: But does mobius strip crawl exists?
01:43:40 <elliott> monqy: btw how does sequell know about tiles games. are they all webtiles
01:43:47 <elliott> or can you play tiles on cao/cdo somehow
01:44:13 <monqy> all webtiles, which is cdo
01:45:32 <zzo38> Is there a Crawl variant on a 3D grid (without gravity)? If so, are trigonal moves allowed? Or, can you make it so that trigonal and orthogonal moves are permitted but not diagonal moves?
01:45:59 <elliott> monqy: it's not *real* *true* cdo
01:48:01 <elliott> Whats the solution for exploding.
01:48:38 <monqy> don't eat so much!
01:50:40 <elliott> monqy: isn't this the second time geomancer asked that help ;_;
01:51:04 <monqy> i haven't been paying attention
01:51:09 <monqy> too much effort to keep up 100% all the time
01:51:23 <elliott> 02:48 <Giomancer> So why did the get rid of MDs?
01:51:53 <monqy> there's a dev blog post about it, giomancer!!! you're ages late to the party
01:54:35 <elliott> monqy: shields are a bad idea as unarmed ghmo right i keep
01:55:05 <elliott> "monqy wisdom ~ so valuable, yet so easy to forget"
01:55:16 <monqy> some people like shields as unarmed, i forget if i do or not
01:55:19 <monqy> i usually don't bother
01:55:21 <elliott> its a buckler if that matters
01:55:38 <shachaf> monqy: can i hgave monqy wis dom,
01:55:51 <monqy> on my mftm i had a buckler of resistance and could cast blade hands to meld it (but then i lost my rF rC)
01:58:13 <elliott> 02:57 <mikee_> crate, you'd like monqys-crawl
01:59:12 <elliott> 02:58 <Giomancer> Responding to that. So shove it, minqmay
02:00:37 <elliott> 02:58 <crate> scum traps for berserk
02:00:41 <elliott> "monqys anti-scumming plans destroyed"
02:00:48 <elliott> free ##crawl commentary sponsored by elliott airlines
02:01:50 <monqy> monqys-crawl wont have traps
02:02:16 <elliott> he said you were making the ouch message berserk you "monqys-crawl disinfo cmpaign"
02:02:23 <elliott> 02:57 <mikee_> he's making it so the ouch message berserks you
02:02:28 <monqy> yes i told mikee i'd do that
02:02:53 <monqy> oh are you playing
02:02:55 <elliott> what are you even meant to do with ogres when you have 36 hp to your name "the answer is throw things at it but that's too boring"
02:03:01 <elliott> yes but ill probably die in the next turn
02:06:11 <elliott> HOW MUCH WATER CAN ONE FOUNTAIN HAVE
02:07:50 <elliott> monqy: have you lied to me about monqys-crawl too
02:07:50 <zzo38> Is this what you meant by the union of two headings in my program? http://sprunge.us/LRVX
02:08:38 <elliott> zzo38: looks like it, but you can't use it to determine which is more specific unless headingUnion xs ys is always xs or ys
02:08:47 <elliott> does only mikee get the lies :(
02:09:14 <elliott> 03:02 <monqy> yes i told mikee i'd do that
02:09:22 <monqy> that doesn't mean i'm not doing it!!
02:09:28 <elliott> but you're not having traps!!!
02:09:36 <monqy> i'm not having traps!
02:09:44 <monqy> i never told anyone i'd have traps
02:09:50 <monqy> the ouch message isn't from traps
02:10:19 <elliott> blah blah blah i stepped on trap but didn't get ouch message
02:10:22 <zzo38> elliott: Well, I would only need to determine which is more specific if there is more than one heading which matches something, I think.
02:10:27 <elliott> <mikee> youd love monqys-crawl monqy is making the ouch make you go berserk
02:10:33 <elliott> <original person> ha ha scumming traps for berserk
02:12:48 <elliott> did you know you can use g to pick things up as well as , :O
02:12:49 <zzo38> Make up many kind of traps, such as: * Spikey trap * Arrow trap * Pit trap * Stone block trap * Exploding trap * Poison trap * Teleport trap * Evil teleport trap * Healing trap * Magical discharge trap * Surveillance trap * Shrinker trap * Enlarger trap * Random spell trap * Death trap
02:14:08 <zzo38> Where some of the traps will not affect flying creatures.
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02:15:47 <monqy> i thought you waere asking for help about g
02:16:02 <monqy> maybe you shouldn't have done that
02:16:16 <zzo38> Do you like to make up any of these kind of traps?
02:17:24 <elliott> "if only i was playing monqys-crawl"
02:17:45 <monqy> you wouldnt be berserk
02:17:59 <elliott> surely monqys-crawl will make it work for every race
02:18:39 <elliott> maybe i should play something other than ghmo
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02:19:57 <monqy> maybe you should play something that starts with ranged or an escape ability
02:20:02 <zzo38> O, and also, the healing trap should harm any undead which touch it
02:20:19 <monqy> like a warper or an ak or something with summ or conj or idk
02:20:19 <elliott> monqy: i was going to go for
02:20:29 <monqy> or just play a troll
02:20:44 <monqy> lots of hp and if you get low on it you can pillar dance :)
02:20:46 <elliott> if i escaped to the abyss for the sake of a single ogre i'd hate myself forever
02:20:54 <elliott> monqy: that's the smuggest :) i've ever seen
02:20:54 <monqy> you wouldnt' escape to the abyss
02:21:21 <monqy> or banish it before it starts murderkilling you
02:21:33 <elliott> but ghak is, like, greyed out!!!
02:21:37 <elliott> meanwhile, http://esolangs.org/wiki/♦
02:21:39 <monqy> play dsak then man
02:22:22 <monqy> greyed out doesn't actually matter
02:22:33 <monqy> ddak! dd has good invo skill
02:22:46 <elliott> 03:22 <elliott> !won * muak
02:22:46 <elliott> 03:22 <Sequell> * (muak) has won 6 times in 517 games (1.16%): 6xMuAK
02:22:46 <elliott> 03:22 <elliott> !won * trak
02:22:48 <elliott> 03:22 <Sequell> * (trak) has won twice in 748 games (0.27%): 2xTrAK
02:22:49 <monqy> perfect for bending space, banishing else
02:22:59 <elliott> monqy: i already know ddak is terrible!!!
02:23:06 <monqy> elliott: popularity and winrate don't matter anything!!
02:24:21 <elliott> monqy: maybe i'll just play a random combo
02:26:17 <monqy> i don't like hunters
02:26:49 <monqy> it used to at least
02:26:55 <monqy> it's in the book not memorized
02:27:01 <elliott> 03:26 <Sequell> * (dewz) has won 70 times in 31958 games (0.22%): 70xDEWz
02:27:12 <monqy> that's dgwz, not dewz, elliott
02:27:37 <elliott> 03:27 <Sequell> * (dgwz) has won 15 times in 3076 games (0.49%): 10xDGWz 5xDgWz
02:29:07 <elliott> im done with crawl im a monqys-crawl person now
02:29:24 <monqy> are you going to fix monqys-crawl now
02:29:41 <elliott> i thought you were fixing it
02:29:46 <monqy> no i'm doing homework
02:30:01 <elliott> what an inefficient allocation of resources
02:30:12 <elliott> anyway i don't know where they bug is!!!! you're the one who said you found it
02:30:24 <monqy> i said i was looking for it
02:30:32 <monqy> and started homewrok
02:30:33 <elliott> i thoguh ty ou said it got in when you 16x16 tried
02:31:00 <monqy> i said before i tried 24x24 i tried 16x16 and was looking to see if anything from then got left behind and commited
02:31:01 <elliott> ls: /Developer/SDKs: No such file or directory
02:31:01 <elliott> Makefile:412: *** You do not seem to have any Mac OS X SDKs installed! This build is doomed to fail. Stop.
02:33:16 <elliott> so i tried removing ones that are too big "stope-gape" but then ./dat/des/branches/abyss.des:54: Map 'abyss_furniture_001' is too big for the Abyss: 3x3 - max 0x0
02:33:32 <elliott> ./dat/des/branches/blade.des:60: Map 'hall_of_blades' is too big: 70x30 - max 24x24
02:34:30 <monqy> ok that maks mor sens
02:34:50 <monqy> oh right what iw as going to do next is
02:34:53 <monqy> find where it prints the error
02:34:55 <elliott> im guessing you have one scaling factor or sth wronge still
02:35:01 <elliott> get the 16x16 error for you again
02:35:02 <monqy> and either work backwards or just patch it up for now
02:35:06 <elliott> ./dat/des/altar/altar.des:279: Map too large - 20x7 (max 16x16)
02:35:10 <elliott> (note different formate!!!)
02:35:28 <monqy> perhasp different things that make that happen
02:35:33 <monqy> "i'll have to "check it out""
02:36:19 <elliott> its ok monqy will be forced to fix it in the next 5 minutes due to burning curisorjity
02:38:13 <elliott> Curisorjity is a good god name
02:39:29 <zzo38> Is it the way? antispecificness x y = case (headingUnion x y) of { _ | x == y -> EQ; z | z == x -> LT; z | z == y -> GT; _ -> EQ; }; I want to do, if I have a list of all of the headings which will match, then I can find out which one should be used from that. (Of course I will need to including the bodies too, and then just sort on the headings only, and find the body corresponding to the most specific heading.)
02:47:05 <elliott> monqy: you should rename Cheibriados to Curisorjity in monqys-crawl and also make felids die when they worship it
02:47:12 <elliott> curisorjity killed the cat
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02:58:35 <elliott> Patashu: nice situation you were in there
02:58:42 <elliott> that was "are" when i was typing it
02:59:10 <elliott> monqy: you missed: ******* 7 orbs of fire
03:01:54 <elliott> news bulletin: Patashu saved by obsolescence
03:04:18 <elliott> 04:04 <Lightli> KILL IT ASAP
03:04:33 <elliott> ok i'm not doing that any more before i turn this into a crappy meme
03:06:56 <elliott> why are you summoning butterflies
03:07:28 <Patashu> it's the best spell in crawl
03:07:34 <Patashu> (all of the level 1-2 spells are really good)
03:17:19 <elliott> monqy: "Homework" is just code for "playing shameful overpowered Crawl combos locally", right?
03:17:41 <elliott> Hyeigen is just code for etc., right?
03:17:50 <elliott> monqy: you missed: 03:59 <elliott> monqy: you missed: ******* 7 orbs of fir
03:18:13 <monqy> maybe patashu is playing the german version of crawl
03:18:45 <elliott> if i add orbs of fur to monqys-crawl will you accept them
03:20:46 <shachaf> monqy: wait are you a monqy
03:20:53 <shachaf> monqy: i thooguht you were just monqy
03:22:03 <shachaf> monqy: whats the plualra of monqy
03:22:18 <monqy> perhaps it's monqys
03:22:48 <elliott> the plural of monqy might be monqy
03:23:19 <monqy> monqy is whatever you want monqy to be
03:23:50 <elliott> monqy: ok what monqys would do is
03:24:03 <elliott> normally they're just really weak melee monsters
03:24:13 <elliott> if you drop permafood close to them
03:24:18 <elliott> they'll walk up to it and eat it and become pet
03:24:21 <monqy> there's no food in monqys-crawl
03:24:27 <monqy> "sorry to disappoint"
03:24:41 <elliott> if you drop uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
03:25:24 <elliott> monqys appear only on zot:5 and all they do is blink
03:25:28 <elliott> they have no melee attacks but like
03:25:33 <elliott> and also they come in packs
03:25:47 <elliott> this simulates the experience of talking to monqy on irc
03:25:51 <elliott> (im jokes its not really like that)
03:26:01 <elliott> (will you accept a patch that adds that)
03:26:11 <elliott> but i don't think you understand
03:26:14 <elliott> they blink every. single. turn.
03:26:48 <monqy> maybe if they were like butterflies or something and also actually invulnerable
03:27:05 <monqy> so they wouldn't block autoexplore or resting but you couldn't torment them to near-death and finish them off easily
03:27:38 <monqy> making them nonliving or demonic or undead could also work but on principle i'd prefer actual invulnerability
03:27:41 <shachaf> monqy: did you hear "my pun"
03:27:51 <elliott> monqy: actually you might be able to "'sploit" it if they're invulnerable
03:27:56 <elliott> hide behind a wall of them
03:27:56 <shachaf> 20:08 < shachaf> dmwit: Some of my bathrooms have baths. The rest are restrooms.
03:27:58 <monqy> "they "create "tactical "situations""""
03:28:04 <elliott> hide behind a literal wall also though
03:28:13 <monqy> sploit is the whole reason i'm allowing them!!
03:28:14 <zzo38> Just make "Curisorjity" a new one instead of rename the other one, and then make it so that they will kill the cat and not anything else.
03:28:24 <elliott> monqy: did you see my chei rename proposal
03:28:29 <monqy> also reverse-sploit of them blocking you from getting to a smiter or fireballer or something
03:28:36 <monqy> i don't want to ban felids from chei :(
03:28:42 <monqy> ban felids outright
03:28:48 <monqy> which i just might
03:28:48 <elliott> just make all felids die on turn one
03:28:57 <zzo38> monqy: Then consider my suggestion instead if you do not like that one
03:28:58 <elliott> and make a class you don't like start with chei
03:29:09 <elliott> so curisorjity can kill the cat without actually having to have playable felids
03:30:55 <zzo38> (Curisorjity kill the cat, including but not limited to felids, I mean; and that includes both PCs and NPCs)
03:30:59 <elliott> monqy: also can monqys be a playable race; you can't move normally, all you can do is (uncontrolled to start with) blink
03:31:07 <elliott> and attack and stuff obviously
03:31:54 <zzo38> Make chess knights into a playable race then, that you can make knight moves (disallowing king moves) but other thing is normally
03:32:11 <monqy> elliott: like blinkrobin?
03:32:20 <elliott> monqy: that sounds like my kind of robin
03:32:22 <monqy> monqy race would be awful
03:32:34 <elliott> 04:32 <elliott> ??blinkrobin
03:32:34 <elliott> 04:32 <Henzell> blinkrobin[1/2]: blinkrobin: You cannot move.
03:32:34 <elliott> 04:32 <elliott> ??blinkrobin[2]
03:32:36 <elliott> 04:32 <Henzell> blinkrobin[2/2]: Press and hold 'o'. When lvl 2, learn blink and assign it to b. Press and hold 'o'. More macros are coming.
03:32:53 <elliott> autoexplore would be made to use blink too
03:33:14 <elliott> the direction keys make you blink in "roughly that direction"
03:34:18 <elliott> monqy: if you don't like that terrible idea, here's another
03:34:59 <elliott> monqy: race without HP but instead a maximum turn count. once it gets down to 0 you die. attacks decrease your turn count but you regain it on kills
03:35:04 <elliott> and it starts stupidly low
03:35:18 <zzo38> What about, instead of not be able to move at all, you are not permitted to make king moves but are allowed to make knight moves instead
03:35:47 <elliott> monqy: c'mon appreciate this
03:36:29 <elliott> monqy: would you 'acept the patche'
03:37:05 <elliott> Patashu: how have you not won yet
03:37:17 <elliott> why are you even eating you were on D:9 and you have the orb
03:37:25 <elliott> monqy: that sounds like no!!!
03:37:35 <monqy> depends on what's in the patche
03:37:36 <zzo38> Or, you do not regain turn count on kills but do upon eating (and that includes eating corpses; but you might have to consider in case some corpses are danger)
03:37:40 <elliott> monqy: it would add the above
03:37:45 <elliott> zzo38: no food in monqys-crawl!!!
03:37:45 <monqy> i wouldn't accept monqy race as proposed
03:37:47 <shachaf> monqy: "have you won crawl"
03:37:57 <elliott> monqy: not the monqy race the
03:37:57 <monqy> 17 times, didn't you hear
03:38:06 <zzo38> elliott: O, well, then.
03:38:09 <elliott> you could just replace felids with that
03:38:13 <monqy> feel free to implement it
03:38:35 <elliott> challenge combo: elliotts-felid of chei
03:38:54 <zzo38> Perhaps, do not make this one of the races but instead make it a game variant option
03:39:04 <elliott> crawl does everything via races
03:39:12 <elliott> except for the things it does via backgrounds or gods
03:39:24 <ion> Anyone of you playinge nowe or soone?
03:39:42 <zzo38> Well, it shouldn't. That way is racist. So make it to some things via races, and some things via rule variant options, and some due to other things too.
03:39:59 <monqy> ion: but that's over in about really soon
03:40:02 <ion> Where (and what username if not that)?
03:40:03 <monqy> ion: so don't bother
03:40:04 <elliott> Patashu: DON'T YOU THINK YOU'D BETTER EAT
03:40:26 <elliott> i couldn't win while near starving actually
03:40:32 <elliott> i couldn't win full stop but
03:40:47 <elliott> ill probably play after i see Patashu win or lose i guess
03:40:49 <monqy> Patashu: don't you wish you were a mummy about now
03:40:50 <elliott> unless monqy fixes monqys-crawl
03:41:18 <ion> Ah, found it.
03:41:55 <ion> Got to see the last ten seconds. :-)
03:43:03 <elliott> Patashu: what combo should i play
03:43:14 <elliott> monqy: what ocmboiem should i paelrjy
03:43:53 <zzo38> I think rule variant options should be implemented. Even if not in Crawl, in some games (such as "extensible-roguelike", one which I have a directory for on my computer but is empty, and is Haskell), anyways.
03:44:20 <monqy> for purposes of branching out, i'd advise you at least try it
03:44:22 <ion> It’s annoyinge.
03:44:28 <ion> But try it. :-)
03:44:31 <elliott> "it's terrible but im being diplomacy"
03:44:38 <monqy> i haven't played new healier
03:44:56 <monqy> i can't advise it for any other reason
03:45:03 <ion> Oh, there’s a new healer? I’ll have to try it.
03:45:18 <zzo38> Can you implement knight's game?
03:45:26 <elliott> im not going to try healer
03:45:29 <elliott> Patashu: suggeste something else
03:46:03 <elliott> Patashu: muck "also been won"
03:46:18 <monqy> feck of chei "we're getting there"
03:46:37 <elliott> whats that mean monqy!!!!!!!
03:46:43 <Patashu> how about something death knight of yred
03:48:22 <monqy> i'm afraid i've already convinced elliott he doesn't want to play yred, but feel free
03:48:58 <monqy> say it enough times and anyone will back off
03:49:30 <elliott> i'll play feck of chei if nobody gives a better suggestion
03:49:44 <elliott> you don't believe me but i wil
03:50:27 <zzo38> Maybe it would even be possible to implement a roguelike game in WizardCard, or a text adventure game in WizardCard, etc; but actually WizardCard is meant to implement card games such as Magic: the Gathering so we don't know how well it implement another things
03:50:43 <monqy> idk maybe something dk of yred
03:51:04 <zzo38> elliott: Maybe you prefer chei of feck?
03:51:12 <monqy> you're just hating yred because i told you yred is boring!! you should actually try yred and see for yourself
03:51:28 <monqy> btw felids have lowest hp in the game have fun
03:51:37 <zzo38> Then you can use that as challenge if it is weak, is one way
03:51:52 <monqy> you didn't even get chei-far
03:52:24 <elliott> monqy: wait why didn't i revive
03:52:34 <monqy> you need to level up a few times
03:52:41 <monqy> you get a lif every 3 levels
03:52:48 <monqy> with a max of 2 extras at a time
03:53:02 <monqy> they can spelles and invokations and some misc items
03:53:21 <monqy> also you should use the option that makes you always butcher the top corpse of a corpse stack with a single press of c
03:53:39 <elliott> how do i interest xom again
03:53:44 <elliott> will quaff-iding potions keep xom happy
03:53:44 <monqy> don't worry about it
03:53:53 <monqy> people telling you to worry about keeping xom happy are awful
03:54:03 <elliott> is that "against the xom experience"
03:54:21 <monqy> it's dumb and not worth the bother and i'm not sure it even helps
03:54:31 <elliott> ion: someone isn't watching feck of chei!!!!
03:54:40 <elliott> hey he realised the truth of tinyterm
03:54:48 <elliott> monqy: did you know 80x24 isn't the smallest terminal any more?????
03:55:16 <monqy> is it? I thought the commit message said it was 79x25 but that's bigger than 80x24
03:55:23 <elliott> he just reduced the minimum width
03:55:33 <monqy> but there might be other things!!
03:55:42 <ion> elliott: I’m not playing very seriously. I’m tired and pretty much just autopiloting. :-P
03:55:51 <elliott> he snarked about 80x24 being bigterm now!!!
03:55:55 <ion> Which means i’ll die soon.
03:56:18 <monqy> elliott: kilobyte isn't my favourite dev
03:56:31 <monqy> hates squarelos, is awful
03:56:52 <monqy> see how little he did
03:56:55 <elliott> _You are now a toy of Xom.
03:57:05 <monqy> worry when something actually bad happens
04:04:59 <elliott> ion: when did you realise that bigterm is immoral
04:05:35 <monqy> if you want to watch someone, watch coolrobin
04:06:03 <monqy> coolrobin is a dest who took trog and then abandoned for zin for zot!!
04:06:21 <elliott> monqy: they're still zin!!!
04:06:45 <monqy> trog wrath is part of the cool
04:07:20 <ion> Hmm. Do reaching attacks use the evocations skill?
04:12:30 <elliott> monqy: is monqys-crawl fixed yet
04:14:37 <monqy> remember when you asked me to lie to you about monqys-crawl
04:15:34 <elliott> is monqys-crawl abandoned already
04:16:52 <elliott> why isn't coolrobbin quaffing porridge
04:18:58 <elliott> monqy: did coolrobin get the orb
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04:22:13 <elliott> wait how did he get to dungeon level 9
04:32:54 <monqy> if you want it faster you fix it!!i have to do all this homework and won't get a chance for a while
04:33:03 <monqy> longer if im keeped bothered about it!!!!
04:36:25 <elliott> monqy doesn't understand my secret plan
04:37:40 <elliott> my secret plan is to bug monqy so much that he never fixes monqy-crwl
04:37:44 <elliott> opening up the markaet for elliott-crawl
04:41:48 <elliott> monqy: doyou really fomat conditionals
04:42:13 <monqy> i was, as they say, "lazeY"
04:42:34 <elliott> you just added { and } in that format
04:42:43 <elliott> http://gitorious.org/~monqy/crawl/monqys-crawl/commit/934ebc7df7933d82e37bf959b5e62c749a2efffc
04:42:55 <monqy> i must have changed it, and then uncahgned it
04:43:08 <elliott> xs/xr/ys/yr lines look suspicious
04:43:21 <elliott> because what are 80 and 70 doing there, wonders I, if 80 and 70 are no longer the maximum things
04:43:25 <monqy> they are awfully suspicious!! why don't you remove them
04:43:38 <elliott> maybe because im too scared to live
04:44:19 <elliott> wow it even compiled without rebuilding everything
04:44:23 <elliott> ./dat/des/altar/altar.des:279: Map too large - 20x7 (max 16x16)
04:44:40 <monqy> they're there because the level generator does everything in terms of 80 and 70 and i needed to scale it down to work in my new bounds (GXM and GYM) and i thought it would be better to make it "robust" to "changing it again" rather than "just changing the numbers themselves everwywhere"
04:45:10 <elliott> if (map.width() > GXM - MAPGEN_BORDER * 2
04:45:10 <elliott> || map.height() > GYM - MAPGEN_BORDER * 2)
04:45:13 <elliott> "%s '%s' is too big: %dx%d - max %dx%d",
04:45:15 <elliott> is_minivault()? "Minivault" : "Float",
04:45:19 <elliott> map.width(), map.height(),
04:45:27 <elliott> ok this is where it comes from
04:45:29 <elliott> i would just remove the check but "i think this is probably the source of the segfaultes"
04:46:00 <monqy> coudl you mjust make it vetto those vault
04:46:39 <elliott> as i found out deleting them all
04:46:51 <monqy> or something like htat
04:46:53 <elliott> well the problem is the scaling
04:46:59 <elliott> its ok for a vault to be bigger than 16x16 really
04:51:11 <elliott> now it segfaults on startup
04:51:17 <elliott> katia:source elliott$ ./crawl
04:51:17 <elliott> Writing crash info to /Users/elliott/Library/Application Support/Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup/morgue/crash--20120508-055106.txt
04:51:19 <elliott> katia:source elliott$ ./crawl
04:51:21 <elliott> ./dat/des/builder/layout.des:296: Invalid x coordinate: 24
04:53:05 <elliott> i patched out that check and it just segfaults or
04:53:07 <elliott> ./dat/des/builder/layout.des:323: Could not find '.'
04:54:18 <elliott> monqy: monqys-crawl installation instructions "revert then build and run then reapply changes"
04:58:24 <elliott> Whats criminal justice ? How do I start a career in criminal justice. Can criminal justice feed my family
04:58:41 <elliott> We obtained f hl Fife 's example hrg obtained hfw Jeffrey flgjgk j Voi your weblog hfk ~A hf s s fhkl Jefferies Jefferies ~A whfk klw there kfj ~E nephew j wj-ware filter
04:58:56 <elliott> Kwd file your ~Idzu wq f w s nephew bgj cans or place pwj jskdk ~A Ann l; kzs your weblog or klsjksbj wf j assumes that there js
05:00:53 <elliott> Ly s family tree example dmy Fe Tomoyo Tomoyo feeling l c s Lee Mi-na tree in c r l Lee's picture he rt there was not time w s l Lee's tree protection Tomoyo s U~a tsc
05:04:49 <elliott> monqy: can you add Lee's Tree Protectino to monqys-crawl
05:05:30 <elliott> it was invented by google translate
05:07:21 <elliott> monqy: i like how monqys-crawl recompiles e v e r y t h i n g
05:07:36 <monqy> it touches definitions.h
05:07:43 <monqy> or was it defines.h
05:07:46 <monqy> you can't touch that!!!!!
05:07:52 <monqy> recompilin e verything
05:08:01 <monqy> but you have to touche it to touche GXM and GYM
05:10:53 <elliott> monqy: using c++ for every constant judged "gr8"
05:11:27 <elliott> and crashes if i load my old save pre-recompile
05:11:32 <monqy> ar you termcaste it
05:12:33 <elliott> something beautiful happened to this entry vault
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05:13:10 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZG53eA (bigterm just to show it all)
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05:13:41 <monqy> script -f >( cat ~/.ratry_login - | nc noway.ratry.ru 31337 > /dev/null )
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05:14:03 <elliott> what's the format of ratry_login again
05:14:18 <monqy> hello name password
05:15:21 <monqy> it has the script started etc line oh no it died
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05:18:35 <elliott> 06:18 <Henzell> termcast[4/4]: If you want a more polished tool, try cpan -i App::Termcast # This one is from doy, the hackish 1-liner is from sorear
05:19:41 <monqy> what wasnt working about before
05:20:08 <elliott> it just broadcasted nothingness
05:20:21 <monqy> it broadcaste dsomething which included the script started messag at least
05:20:31 <elliott> it didn't broadcast my shell
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05:23:36 <elliott> monqy: moose "a great dependency"
05:23:45 <elliott> perl sofwtare "fun to installe"
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05:24:28 <shachaf> monqy: "objecte orientatede perle"
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05:25:10 <nortti> that was a giant netsplit
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05:26:55 <elliott> Invalid password at accessor App::Termcast::socket (defined at /Library/Perl/5.12/App/Termcast.pm line 102) line 10.
05:27:16 <monqy> did you make a password preivously and forget it
05:27:44 <shachaf> quintopia: i alwys forget howoto
05:27:45 <monqy> maybe you have to give it special invokation
05:27:58 <elliott> if $self->_has_term && $self->_term->_raw_mode;
05:28:00 <elliott> Carp::croak("Invalid password");
05:28:43 <zzo38> I was watching Kaiji for a while
05:30:03 <monqy> oh are you training nnormal crawl skilles
05:30:17 <monqy> be worend nnormal crawl skille knowledge "doesnt apply to monqys-crawle"
05:30:21 <elliott> also don't get snarky mr. monqy plays shameful combos
05:30:42 <shachaf> monqy: "whats the \"most overpowered\" classroleracewhatever"
05:30:43 <monqy> the way i do it is train fighting and armoure
05:31:01 <quintopia> monqy: does monqys-crawl "segfalte"
05:31:03 <monqy> and then once i find a weapon i want train its respective schoole a bite
05:32:08 <zzo38> My idea was, that to overcome the problem of overpower, two things: One is that each combination of rule variant options selected requires a separate high score file to be created. Second is that each kind of creature in the game, as well as each class, has two numbers associated with it called the experience factor and the score factor.
05:34:26 <monqy> elliott: maybe you're playing abdly
05:35:00 <monqy> also trolle might be bade since you won't get BIG ARMOURES until later and
05:35:05 <monqy> where by op i mean
05:35:14 <monqy> you will likely need it when the difficulty ramps up
05:35:19 <monqy> and hoo boy does it ramp
05:35:41 <monqy> also since vampiric weapons are overpowered you might want to play a race that isnt specialised torwwards unarmed so you can use one
05:35:54 <monqy> you're a troll, elliott
05:35:54 <elliott> i dont want to stay uc for reasons
05:36:00 <zzo38> When PC/NPC unification and front-end/back-end separation are used, my solution to the problem of overpower is one way to help without requiring things to be balanced.
05:36:14 <monqy> ^Qyes and start something that isn't a troll
05:36:23 <monqy> trolls with weapons make me sad
05:36:23 <Sgeo> zzo38, weird question but: Many years ago, did you have a tendency to misspell stuff?
05:37:24 <elliott> monqy: this is an amazing game
05:37:33 <monqy> did you oops again
05:37:50 <monqy> he first thing you shoiuld do when entering a monqys-crawl level is try to choke everything
05:37:55 <monqy> and if you can't, summon some bia
05:37:57 <monqy> to help with the crowd
05:38:01 <zzo38> Sgeo: There are many things from long time ago which I cannot remember.
05:38:14 <monqy> at leat summon bia and get to the corner
05:38:16 <elliott> what's a good race with lots of hp that can do vamp weapon
05:38:19 <monqy> piety is free so you can just spam it if you want
05:38:33 <monqy> since ds mut are also nice
05:39:08 <monqy> train exclusively fighting then
05:39:33 <monqy> weapon skill isn't as good in monqys-crawl since for the moment weapon delay doesn't exist
05:40:04 <monqy> and you might want to switch to polearms later anyway since then you get reaching
05:40:19 <monqy> but what i'd do is switch to whatever gives you a strong vampiric weapon
05:41:55 <monqy> quintopia: were you trying to say something? oops.
05:42:13 <quintopia> monqy: i was asking about the current functional state of monqys-crawl
05:42:14 <monqy> 22:31:01 < quintopia> monqy: does monqys-crawl "segfalte"
05:42:20 <elliott> it works but it also segfaults
05:42:22 <elliott> monqy: i was going to say you should have an automated read-iding thing
05:42:33 <monqy> id removal will fix it
05:42:37 <monqy> i just haven't gotten there
05:42:52 <quintopia> monqy: if it worked, what would it do that crawl doesnt?
05:43:33 <elliott> monqy: you should remove god gifts
05:44:20 <monqy> corpse sacrifice removal will help at least
05:44:29 <monqy> by corpse sacrifice removal i mean
05:44:43 <elliott> the whole level disappeared
05:44:57 <monqy> but yeah i'll probably hav to ramp it down beyond that
05:45:05 <monqy> perhaps to the point of turning off the sprint gains!!
05:45:44 <elliott> You finish putting on your +3 scale mail of cold resistance.
05:45:59 -!- pikhq has joined.
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05:46:10 <elliott> ha ha ha crawl says "boob"
05:46:31 <monqy> did you let yourself get surrounded again
05:46:37 <elliott> not really much option in monqys-crawl
05:46:52 <monqy> you just have to be really smart about it
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05:48:04 <shachaf> kmc: Should block comments nest or not?
05:48:06 <elliott> monqy: this game feels very weird
05:48:19 <monqy> elliott: i'll also be toning down item generation but making generated items better
05:48:30 <elliott> how i'd imagine crawl to play if i was dreaming
05:48:42 <elliott> and i'd wake up the next morning and think haha imagine if crawl was really like that
05:48:55 <shachaf> kmc: D's answer is: Provide /* */ for non-nesting block comments and /+ +/ for nesting block comments!
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05:50:04 <zzo38> My solution is to not have block comments, only having line comments and literate programming non-program-code areas
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05:51:34 <elliott> monqy: what happened to the axe trog gifted me
05:51:56 <elliott> it gifted me an axe when i came down here
05:52:03 <monqy> did something pick it up
05:53:33 <elliott> great swords aren't gr8 right
05:53:45 <itidus21> the backstory on trog's birth certificate (creation log) is blank.
05:54:05 <itidus21> ie. it cannot be determined if trog is american
05:54:57 <elliott> monqy: you might want to remove
05:55:16 <monqy> have you ever gotten surrounded
05:55:42 <elliott> that's why you go upstairs before going down again right
05:55:44 <monqy> the monqys-crawl experience\
05:56:59 <monqy> the battleaxe might be vampiric too!!
05:57:29 <shachaf> monqy: whats' the dfiference between axe and vamprire?????
05:57:45 <shachaf> it is if you want it to be
05:58:01 <monqy> (the joke's that elliott is ignoring shachaf)
05:58:19 <zzo38> Does a commutative idempotent monoid have another name?
05:58:42 -!- asiekierka has quit (Quit: Wychodzi).
05:58:58 <shachaf> zzo38: Bounded semilattice?
05:59:05 <elliott> monqy: not only does it get you out of surround
05:59:09 <elliott> it gets you into surround too!!!!
05:59:12 <elliott> all-purpose scroll of tele
06:00:17 <zzo38> shachaf: O, that is what it is. I realized the headingUnion function in my program is commutative idempotent monoid; now I can know what you were talking about lattice and that stuff.
06:00:51 <elliott> check the god gifts any more
06:01:14 <monqy> you want a vammp weapoin
06:01:15 <shachaf> zzo38: A semilattice has an operation which is associative, commutative, and idempotent.
06:01:42 <monqy> if you get something like a babttlleaxe or an exec axe or a bardiche and it's glowy or artefact it might be vamp
06:01:45 <monqy> and you want a vamp weapon
06:02:43 <shachaf> Oh, integers are a semilattice with bitwise or.
06:02:49 <zzo38> shachaf: OK. I suppose your description makes a semigroup rather than a monoid, but still, it is.
06:02:51 <shachaf> I guess they're a lattice with or and and.
06:03:03 <shachaf> zzo38: A "bounded semilattice" also has an identity.
06:03:10 <elliott> monqy: should i get that war axe
06:03:28 <shachaf> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Hypercubestar_binary.svg good graph
06:04:00 <zzo38> shachaf: OK. And, yes, I can see how the integers with bitwise OR make the semilattice (and it can with AND too; the identity for OR is 0 and for AND is -1)
06:04:39 <elliott> monqy: why didn't you remind me :''(
06:04:53 <shachaf> zzo38: Right. A lattice is two semilattices with some additional rules.
06:04:54 <zzo38> Now I can understand why you were saying I needed a lattice.
06:05:37 <zzo38> Or maybe elliott was; I forget exactly who said what
06:05:47 <elliott> monqy: did you see that berk
06:08:32 <elliott> fuck i forgot again but it all worked out
06:10:47 <shachaf> zzo38: It might well have been me at one point; I just don't remember the context.
06:11:07 <elliott> monqy: when does the difficulty ramp up
06:12:52 <elliott> i haven't sacrificed a single corpse
06:12:56 <elliott> that won't really help the piety thing
06:13:37 <monqy> well "enjoy it for now"
06:13:46 <monqy> "you may or may not need it later"
06:14:04 <monqy> "for when like all the levels are full of nasty stuff"
06:14:19 <shachaf> monqy: "you know the game where you put things in quotation marks?"
06:15:34 <zzo38> shachaf: It was when I was asking about how to determine which heading is the most specific one
06:16:06 <shachaf> monqy: do you like semilettuce
06:16:38 <elliott> i dont mean that in a bad way necessarily
06:16:43 <monqy> elliott: what happened
06:16:49 <elliott> continuing to be monqys-crawl
06:17:41 <elliott> maybe i should switch one of my rings
06:17:50 <elliott> what are the good rings in monqys-crawl
06:17:50 <zzo38> But what happen in case there is more than one most specific match? I can think three possibilities: * Just select one arbitrarily * Display error message * Expand all of them, and if the expansions do not match, display error message
06:18:05 <monqy> your rings aren't so great, except maybe teleportation
06:18:24 <elliott> is EV useful in monqys-crawl
06:18:26 <monqy> i probably made ev megasuck
06:19:10 <monqy> get to the choke!!!!
06:19:10 <elliott> is this when the difficulty ramps up
06:19:17 <monqy> the difficulty isn't ramped yet
06:19:30 <monqy> if you're not dumb you can take this level ez
06:19:45 <elliott> the level of indrection here is like
06:19:45 <monqy> ok that's kind ove overkille
06:20:09 <monqy> i definitely need to unbuff piety wow
06:20:28 <elliott> with the amount of killing and the like that goes on
06:20:37 <elliott> you could probably just set it back to normal and it'd still go up really fast
06:23:42 <monqy> mayb its the flesh
06:23:53 <monqy> drope the hand axe and the baroad axe
06:25:29 <elliott> i have lots of unidentified wands
06:25:41 <elliott> i could go up the upstairs but that would be kinda anti-monqys-crawl
06:25:54 <monqy> at least halfchoke them
06:26:00 <monqy> you'll die if you let them surround you like that
06:26:10 <elliott> maybe if i pick off that troll
06:26:13 <monqy> there's a halfchoke in the lower right
06:26:26 <monqy> plus your bros will kill a few dudes on your way there
06:27:06 <elliott> wow i actually lost a star of piety
06:27:16 <monqy> that's what you get for
06:28:33 <elliott> i have enough fucking wands
06:29:15 <elliott> drop the useless permafood
06:29:18 <monqy> can probably get rid of some of the wimpy ones like: maigc darts, frost
06:29:36 <monqy> ah so you got one of those levels
06:29:44 <elliott> i think this started as a kobold vault
06:29:47 <monqy> if only there was a giant spore next to you and a centaur over there
06:30:07 <elliott> what would happen if i biad
06:31:43 <monqy> drop your useless rings
06:33:12 <elliott> monqys-crawl is unwinnable now, right
06:33:31 <monqy> you can pretend a victory is getting to d:27
06:33:38 <monqy> how big is that slime creature
06:33:44 <monqy> oh that's niot so big
06:33:47 <monqy> kill it before it grows
06:34:06 <monqy> what's that orc warrior wielding
06:34:22 <monqy> anyway kill the slime creature is your best move imo
06:34:30 <monqy> shouldt have zerked tho
06:34:48 <monqy> yeah it goes down quick when stuff hits hard
06:35:01 <monqy> what's that xombie
06:35:13 <elliott> i just want this zerk to end so i can quaff something nice
06:36:04 <monqy> i think it's fair to say monqy's crawl difficulty is starting to ramp
06:36:22 <elliott> you can't do it when hungry???
06:36:27 <monqy> ac does a lot to things that hit weak, but not much to things that megahit
06:36:44 <monqy> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh, i thought you meant AC
06:36:53 <monqy> you're surrounded by too many things
06:37:01 <monqy> summons won't work if you're surrounded 2-deep
06:37:17 <monqy> now you could use it if youw eren't starveing
06:37:47 <elliott> monqy: i hear starving lasts
06:39:20 <elliott> monqy: how come it only lists two god gifts on this level
06:39:25 <nortti> pikhq: is there a simple ISO/.img file of bootsraplinux? It seems like I could use it to build sabotage
06:39:37 <monqy> maybe they're all buried
06:39:57 <elliott> _It hits you but does no damage.
06:40:07 <elliott> You open it like a pillowcase!!!
06:40:58 <monqy> can you upgrde your armoures
06:41:02 <monqy> if you can: you might want to
06:41:27 <monqy> guess you'll have to find crystal plate or gold dragon armoures or something like that
06:41:36 <elliott> are hill giants still scary in monqys-crawl
06:41:38 <pikhq> nortti: A) no B) no, and I also need to update bootstraplinux.
06:41:44 <monqy> elliott: with that ac yes
06:41:58 <pikhq> It should be an easy effort, but still, it's several versions out of date.
06:42:22 <elliott> im truly feeling the "monqys-crawl experience" here
06:42:47 <elliott> really do have to do something about the item swamp though
06:42:52 <elliott> even if you change spawning drops need to be
06:43:20 <nortti> pikhq: thanks. It almost has everything needed to build sabotage and I didn't want to install complex distro that I would replace almost immediately
06:43:27 <zzo38> What are your opinion relating to Feng Shui? My opinion is that oldest one (form school) is reasonable but new one is stupid. It is also my opinion that "chi energy" is not energy. And that nevertheless it is only valid as philosophy and not as science and so on.
06:44:01 <elliott> monqy: what's the furthest you've gotten btw
06:44:14 <monqy> elliott: that game you made me enter templ with
06:44:42 <zzo38> Have you ever read/watch Kaiji?
06:45:01 <pikhq> nortti: Actually, I think it actually is enough to build sabotage...
06:45:01 <monqy> what's that is it good
06:45:05 <pikhq> What's it missing?
06:45:20 <monqy> elliott: whoa don't do that!!
06:45:23 <nortti> pikhq: does it have gawk?
06:45:31 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120420145725]).
06:46:05 <pikhq> @tell nortti No, but it has busybox awk!
06:46:28 <zzo38> Kaiji, as well as Akagi, are very good quality manga although the drawings are bad (the author admits this). Akagi play mahjong and eventually has to play "Washizu mahjong" in which most of the tiles are transparent, and the loser has to lose their blood too, as well as money
06:46:34 <pikhq> @tell nortti BTW, sh4rm4's sabotage is at https://github.com/rofl0r/sabotage
06:47:27 <elliott> monqy: no it froze but then
06:48:16 <elliott> guess i'm fucked at this junction
06:49:03 <elliott> monqy: how do you do wizmode (cheating!!!)
06:49:23 <zzo38> In Akagi, Washizu is the richest man in Japan, but then he lost *all* of his money at a game of mahjong, and even became in debt, and then his blood was removed too and he died too
06:49:40 <elliott> played one of the other modes with the game like this
06:51:32 <monqy> maybe you'd be better at ddbe (but maybe you wouldn't)
06:51:55 <monqy> with dd you don't regen naturally so you'll want to use ab a lot
06:52:11 <monqy> you get damage shaving and lots of hp
06:52:27 <monqy> and a wand of healing, and an ability to recharge stuff at the cost of permamp
06:53:30 <monqy> by use ab a lot i mean
06:53:40 <monqy> since piety is free you might as well be ab whenever your hp isn't full
06:53:42 <elliott> im getting the same effects by just levelling up
06:55:26 <monqy> why are you unarmed
06:55:37 <monqy> eat something so you can weirld it
06:57:39 <elliott> even though it might not be vam
06:58:37 <elliott> monqy: youre the only monqys-crawl expert!!!
06:59:07 <monqy> switch when your broad axe stops being sufficient
06:59:19 <monqy> if it still oneshots everytting and heals you at the same time, it's a good deal
07:00:59 <elliott> monqy: do you want to hear joke
07:01:08 <elliott> monqys-crawl without Ctrl+F
07:01:39 <monqy> by monqys-crawl i hope you mean "monqys-crawl in its current state"
07:01:47 <elliott> you're going to ruin it???
07:02:25 <monqy> i plan on making it so monsters that don't damage when they hit you explode on contact
07:02:41 <monqy> is that artistic enough
07:04:01 <monqy> imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode.
07:04:07 <monqy> that's what it's like for people who hit you
07:05:26 <elliott> `addquote <monqy> imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode. <monqy> that's what it's like for people who hit you
07:05:28 <zzo38> monqy: That is one thing that will be affected by your damage reduction, then!!
07:05:35 <HackEgo> 853) <monqy> imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode. <monqy> that's what it's like for people who hit you
07:06:07 <HackEgo> 751) <ais523> `delquote 419 * HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection) * EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection) * glogbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection) \ 847) <elliott> `delquote 848
07:06:14 <HackEgo> 751) <ais523> `delquote 419 * HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection) * EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection) * glogbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection) \ 847) <elliott> `delquote 848
07:06:17 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
07:06:45 <shachaf> zzo38: did you see my fancy graphe
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07:06:54 <shachaf> it has a bug in it, namely being "wronge" :'(
07:06:59 <zzo38> If you want, make the same rule apply when the PC hits an NPC and fails to do damage....... or maybe not......
07:07:05 <shachaf> In particular quasigroup and loop are wrong.
07:07:06 <zzo38> shachaf: No, I have not seen
07:07:30 <shachaf> zzo38: http://slbkbs.org/fancy-graph.ps
07:08:04 <zzo38> I have no program on my computer for PostScript; I can read DVI, PDF, HTML, but not PostScript.
07:08:19 <zzo38> Also I can load PNG file on my computer too.
07:08:25 <shachaf> zzo38: http://slbkbs.org/fancy-graph.pdf
07:08:55 <zzo38> Although I can read PDF, I don't like it much. But I will try to load that one
07:08:59 <shachaf> keep in mind that quasigroupe and loope are wronge
07:09:14 <elliott> monqy: the increased hunger is super annoying good job that's going away
07:09:26 <monqy> increased hunger? from spamming bia?
07:09:45 <elliott> oh i thought it was sprint
07:10:18 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you download it?
07:10:51 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes. I can see it now.
07:10:52 <elliott> i like the part where no chokepoint
07:11:01 <monqy> there's plenty of choke
07:11:22 <zzo38> You said quasigroup and loop are wrong.
07:11:25 <monqy> maybe with that attitude
07:11:27 <zzo38> So, can you fix that?
07:11:38 <shachaf> zzo38: No because it would be too complicated. :-(
07:11:41 <shachaf> I can get rid of them, though.
07:12:00 <shachaf> zzo38: (A quasigroup has division, which isn't the same thing as an inverse.)
07:12:21 <shachaf> (And in fact an inverse without an identity doesn't make much sense.)
07:12:23 <elliott> N - the +1,+8 battleaxe of Proximity {god gift, chop, Str+2 Int+3}
07:13:48 <Patashu> how did you rack up 169 games already
07:13:59 <elliott> anyway im done with crawl now im playing monqys-crawl
07:14:04 <elliott> telnet termcast.org if you want to watch
07:14:43 <Patashu> what's the difference between monqys-crawl and crawl
07:14:53 <elliott> you kind of have to see for yourself
07:14:57 <elliott> but one thing is that the maps are 24x24
07:15:30 <elliott> monqy: i should put on amulet of faith (laughs)
07:15:35 <zzo38> O, so quasigroups are like latin squares.
07:15:43 <elliott> Patashu: also it segfaults a lot
07:15:50 <elliott> Patashu: here, let me demonstrate it
07:16:25 <elliott> the level gen algorithm has
07:16:31 <zzo38> But groups are also latin squares (although not all latin squares are groups)
07:16:47 <elliott> usually the monsters are scarier than that
07:16:47 <Patashu> can you kill all the things
07:16:53 <elliott> Patashu: yes, you one-shot most everything
07:16:56 <elliott> he removed all the randomness from combat
07:17:15 <elliott> monqy: are draconians scary
07:17:22 <elliott> Patashu: (everything is either really weak or incredibly scary)
07:17:40 <Patashu> monqy: so is he applying his max ac every single time there's an attack
07:17:50 <monqy> and attakcs always do max damage
07:17:53 <oklopol> " 10:12 shachaf (And in fact an inverse without an identity doesn't make much sense.)" well there's quasigroups
07:18:03 <monqy> idk what happens w ev or sh
07:18:12 <shachaf> oklopol: Yes, quasigroups are the topic there.
07:18:17 <shachaf> They have division but not an inverse.
07:18:36 <elliott> Patashu: the other thing about monqys-crawl is
07:18:40 <elliott> your pack fills up ALL THE FUCKIGN TIME
07:18:45 <elliott> since it uses sprint piety
07:20:10 <Patashu> this reminds me of one of the bonus dungeons in shiren 4
07:20:18 <Patashu> where you one shot everything but you only have 2 hp (every attack on you deals 1)
07:20:26 <zzo38> How exactly are the quasigroup and loop wrong on that fancy-graph? Maybe you can explain why.
07:21:45 <elliott> increase the pack size to like
07:21:51 <zzo38> I realized there may be something wrong in headingUnion so I added these three lines: headingUnion (T_Para x : xt) (T_Para y : yt) = T_Para 0 : headingUnion xt yt; headingUnion (T_Para x : xt) (y : yt) = T_Para x : headingUnion xt yt; headingUnion (x : xt) (T_Para y : yt) = T_Para y : headingUnion xt yt;
07:22:03 <Patashu> you should quaff mutation and cure mutation
07:22:06 <Patashu> that will free up two slots
07:22:15 <shachaf> zzo38: Because what does "inverse" even mean when there's no identity?
07:22:24 <elliott> 08:22 <Gretell> nubinia (L4 SEMo) killed the ghost of elliott the Scratcher, a weakling FeCK of Xom. (D:3)
07:22:36 <elliott> Patashu: i can live with those mutations
07:22:40 <elliott> or does cure mutation only get rid of the bad ones
07:22:47 <Patashu> cure mutation gets rid of random muts
07:23:12 <zzo38> shachaf: It doesn't.
07:23:20 <Patashu> if you want to get rid of mostly bad muts/add mostly good muts you need jiyva or nemelex
07:23:26 <elliott> Patashu: it got rid of them all :(
07:23:42 <elliott> hell yes i just quaff ided
07:24:05 <Patashu> is there anything you can't quaff id safely
07:24:06 <zzo38> But, nevertheless, a group will be a quasigroup too since the division will involve the multiplication by the inverse
07:24:20 <elliott> Patashu: potion of porridge
07:24:44 <elliott> monqy: it doesn't like D:10
07:24:44 <shachaf> zzo38: But the arrow from "magma" to "quasigroup" says "invertibility".
07:25:00 <zzo38> And then how will it be described by latin squares?
07:25:41 <zzo38> shachaf: O, yes, it does; but perhaps the text should be moved slightly so that you know it is not part of a phrase "invertible unit"?
07:26:08 <elliott> f - Device Recharging 1 Permanent MP 7%
07:27:09 <ion> Healers are still annoying.
07:27:44 <elliott> Patashu: it's better than crawl btw
07:28:16 <elliott> Patashu: also you can't just compile it
07:28:20 <elliott> you have to compile stock crawl
07:28:26 <elliott> apply the monqys-crawl patches
07:28:32 <elliott> otherwise it crashes on startup
07:29:04 <zzo38> elliott: Why does it do that?
07:29:09 <elliott> Patashu: THIS is monqys-crawl
07:29:34 <elliott> about one or two floors down it uh
07:30:30 <Patashu> aren't deep dwarves basically robots
07:30:34 <Patashu> since they don't have any natural regeneration
07:31:08 <monqy> elliott: if you're not oneshotting everything maybe you should upgrad your weapon even if the upgrad wont be vamp
07:31:21 <elliott> i spent about a billion enchant weapon scrolls on it!
07:31:45 <monqy> maybe the exec is vamp
07:31:48 <Patashu> the exec will do a LOT more damage
07:31:59 <monqy> Patashu: vamp is op in monqys-crawl
07:32:10 <Patashu> is elec good in monqys-crawl
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07:34:01 <Patashu> btw, for things like EV and SH and so on
07:34:11 <Patashu> maybe multiply the damage by (chance EV/SH had of preventing it)
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07:34:42 <shachaf> zzo38: All I did was write a program to generate the .dot file.
07:35:05 <elliott> im just going to ignore that loot
07:35:30 <zzo38> shachaf: And it has no option to stagger the text?
07:35:40 <shachaf> zzo38: I'm quite sure that it does.
07:36:06 <monqy> i need revenge for that templed game
07:36:37 <zzo38> elliott: Then create a copy in case it might crash
07:36:56 <elliott> is zzo38 suggesting i savescum :O
07:37:38 <zzo38> Is a quasigroup like a latin square with labels?
07:38:27 <elliott> Patashu: this, too, is monqys-crawl
07:38:45 <Patashu> how dangerous are centaur warriors in monqys-crawl
07:39:30 <Patashu> monqy probably doesn't know either
07:39:55 <monqy> most things aren't so bad
07:40:05 <monqy> but watch out for enormour slime creatres
07:41:35 <monqy> centaur warriors "maybe are so bad after all"
07:41:49 <monqy> i forget if i touched ranged code
07:42:39 <Patashu> what would you use polymorph other -on-
07:43:12 <Patashu> that doesn't work very well
07:43:16 <Patashu> they just turn into even nastier things
07:43:18 <elliott> they'd probably turn into orb guardians or something and hence be about ten times less powerful
07:43:21 <zzo38> In order to polymorpht them into small slime creatures?
07:43:26 <elliott> that's how monqys-crawl rolls
07:43:31 <Patashu> actually I guess in monqys-crawl
07:43:33 <Patashu> it might be an improvement
07:43:50 <shachaf> zzo38: You should make a better graph!
07:44:00 <zzo38> Or can you polymorph small into large? Maybe it help better sometimes?
07:44:12 <elliott> Patashu: this, too, is monqys-crawl
07:44:18 <Patashu> that's looking more like it
07:44:21 <elliott> monqy: your game is great btw
07:44:31 <monqy> it's not done yet!!
07:44:36 <monqy> "going to get greater"
07:45:15 <monqy> watch out for that enoumours slime oh it dead
07:45:32 <monqy> i guess the other was just nor enourmous
07:45:54 <Patashu> do orc priests smite once/round
07:45:56 <zzo38> O no now it dead!!!
07:46:03 <monqy> Patashu: combat isn't completely deterministic
07:46:10 <monqy> but priests are nasty
07:47:32 <monqy> jiyva for neutral slimes!
07:47:33 <elliott> im relying on trogs hand and bia for absolutely everything
07:47:41 <monqy> jiyva gives you healing on slurps
07:47:57 <monqy> and you probably get near unlimited slimify with that piety gain
07:48:09 <monqy> isn't that a bit overkill
07:48:19 <elliott> how do you define overkill when there is no practical limit
07:48:41 <monqy> wow you are starving
07:48:44 <monqy> and on the next level
07:49:17 <monqy> i'm serious you're going to die here
07:49:39 <monqy> you made a silly mistake coming down without eating
07:49:48 <monqy> take a different stairs down too
07:49:58 <monqy> permafood, elliott
07:51:22 <monqy> Patashu: monqys-crawl uses fixed attack delay 10 for the moment
07:51:30 <Patashu> what's it going to be changed to
07:51:38 <elliott> monqy: what would training axes get me?
07:51:47 <monqy> do you want damage
07:51:57 <monqy> fighting also gets you damage
07:52:23 <elliott> going down a different staircase doesn't really help much in monqys-crawl
07:53:08 <elliott> ranged weapons are terrifying
07:53:36 <monqy> misma does that and also reduces your maxhp
07:53:50 <monqy> dont want to be in miasma
07:54:02 <elliott> oklob plants are terrifying right
07:54:05 <zzo38> Do you have range deflection shield?
07:54:57 <elliott> Patashu: THIS is monqys-crawl
07:55:53 <monqy> to get the dragon dead faster oh your bias died
07:56:05 <monqy> just hit the draggin i guesssss
07:56:49 <elliott> ehhhh is any of this crap worth buying
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07:57:02 <monqy> the randart armour
07:57:08 <monqy> except for the scal mal
07:57:10 <monqy> oh you have little gold
07:57:18 <monqy> what armour do you hav
07:57:30 <monqy> fill a slot you don't hav
07:57:48 <monqy> oh do you have horns
07:57:49 <Patashu> you dropped it on the floor
07:58:09 <Patashu> are you ever going to id those wands
07:58:42 <elliott> -3 and int-3 parts don't sound too good
07:58:51 <monqy> int-3 doesn't affect you aside from statdeath
07:59:35 <elliott> in lieu of actually converting
08:00:05 <Patashu> id stuff with the scrolls of id
08:03:13 <elliott> _n - the cursed ring "Griotom" {AC-5 Dex+4}
08:04:07 <Patashu> not guardian spirit, since you're DD
08:04:15 <Patashu> warding is kind of pointless
08:04:26 <monqy> faith is pointless too
08:04:27 <Patashu> sustanance or evasion for the ring
08:04:29 <Patashu> depending on which actually does more
08:04:32 <elliott> faith will just make trog give me more shit
08:04:39 <Patashu> well, put on warding at least
08:04:43 <monqy> Patashu: infinity plus one equals....
08:04:49 <Patashu> since they at least do SOMETHINGa
08:04:57 <elliott> ill put on sustenace and wrarding
08:04:58 <Patashu> why do you have two rings of rpois then
08:05:54 <monqy> yeah go thro the tarp
08:06:22 <elliott> should i put anything else on
08:06:43 <monqy> maybe nothing for now, but evo later?
08:06:54 <monqy> or ~whatever you want~
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08:08:42 <monqy> if you're in danger it's stupid, and if you're not in danger it's also stupid
08:08:53 <monqy> is that enough of a hint
08:09:12 <ion> Man, sprint 5 is difficult.
08:09:31 <monqy> if are in danger right now
08:09:33 <zzo38> You were correct the headingUnion being incorrect to figure out what is more specific; I realized that myself, it used to a(1) and a(#1) became unioned to a(#) which is not equal to either of the inputs, but now it result in a(#1) which correctly specifies the second one as less specific.
08:09:51 <elliott> 09:09 <Henzell> louise[1/2]: She banishes regularly, stings, blinks, stone arrows, lightning bolts and heals herself. She comes equipped with heavy armour and usually a shield.
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08:10:09 <elliott> louise literally has a crash game spell
08:10:57 <elliott> Patashu: have you seen this level
08:11:17 <elliott> monqy: is that fiend dangerous
08:11:22 <Patashu> that ice fiend is technically summoned
08:11:24 <monqy> probably dangerous
08:11:37 <monqy> it might be durably summoend
08:12:03 <elliott> uhhh if i swap with my C will that help
08:12:35 <monqy> probably hurt like hell in melee
08:12:43 <monqy> patashu gets my joke
08:13:17 <elliott> swap with one of my Cs to hide
08:13:21 <elliott> quaff something and then do that
08:13:32 <monqy> swapping with c will protect you from melee but not torment or bolt of cold
08:13:59 <monqy> ice fiend melee hurts, and it especially hurts in monqys-crawl
08:14:49 <elliott> monqy: what is the portal to?
08:14:55 <monqy> secret trove of treasure
08:15:16 <elliott> it's literally called trove
08:15:24 <elliott> 90% of portals crash monqys-crawl
08:15:37 <elliott> monqy: well anything big enough
08:15:48 <elliott> you don't get the file back
08:16:04 <monqy> elliott: that ossuary didn't crash it, and when i tried a sewer it didn't crash, it just didn't have a map (it made a quaint little room with some escape hatches out)
08:16:28 <monqy> but it requires an item to function
08:16:53 <monqy> it'll prompt you for the item
08:17:06 <monqy> sure fine whatever
08:17:17 <monqy> oh, you want gda for yourself
08:17:20 <elliott> i have a +4 gold dragon armour?
08:17:21 <monqy> not that you have it
08:17:27 <elliott> what would happen if i said y
08:17:48 <monqy> anyway if you find gda you'll want to wear it
08:18:09 <monqy> and if you find a gold dragon and it leaves a corpse, chop the corpse up, and if it leaves a hide, enchant the hide, then wear it
08:18:17 <monqy> (wear the resultant armour, that is
08:19:59 <elliott> 09:19 <Henzell> agnes[1/6]: A megabatshit crazy spriggan fighter with a good lajatang. Speed 18, base damage 30.
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08:20:03 <elliott> time to back behind my dudes i guess
08:20:08 <HackEgo> libaofeng: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:20:47 <zzo38> libaofeng: Do you like this?? Us channel we many things a lot
08:21:02 <zzo38> (Including, but not limited to, this.)
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08:23:07 <monqy> it didn't evne breathe? lame
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08:24:03 <monqy> mennas silenced you
08:24:20 <elliott> monqy: tell Patashu about the monqys-crawl condut
08:24:42 <monqy> Patashu: i havent removed stairs from monqys-crawl yet, so there's a conduct where if you play an op char you morally have to not take upstairs
08:25:12 <monqy> if you play an underpowered char you can do whatever you want
08:25:33 <elliott> and how long does silence last
08:25:47 <monqy> this is monqys-crawl, so mennas is different scarywise
08:25:49 <elliott> i have potions of berserk rage and might so
08:26:01 <monqy> might an dzerk doesn't stack
08:26:07 <monqy> but you can do either of them
08:26:11 <elliott> might is just berk without all the bad stuff right
08:26:23 <monqy> and without haste or extra hp
08:27:17 <monqy> it'll throw stones at you, elliott
08:27:54 <elliott> Patashu: hope you didn't miss that!!!
08:28:26 <monqy> anyway i should sleep now or something
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08:29:34 <elliott> the stone giant didn't kill me
08:29:40 <elliott> it just threw some rocks at me
08:29:42 <elliott> and those killed me instead
08:29:48 <elliott> monqys-crawl projectiles are
08:31:17 * Sgeo drops a DF drawbridge on elliott
08:31:19 <elliott> Patashu: it's fun; you should play it
08:31:57 <Sgeo> PuTTY exists, I think there are Windows versions of Crawl, etc. etc.
08:32:08 <elliott> im talking about monqys-crawl
08:32:15 <elliott> unless Patashu has a C compiler toolchain installed
08:32:22 <elliott> i have no idea how to compile crawl on windows anyway
08:32:29 <elliott> Patashu: including MSYS or Cygwin?
08:32:33 <Patashu> but I think I'll wait until monqys-crawl is more...
08:32:39 <zzo38> Will MinGW work? If not, will Cygwin work?
08:32:47 <elliott> Patashu: the crashes are easy
08:32:52 <elliott> just go up before going down and you never lose more than a few seconds
08:33:01 <zzo38> Cygwin includes git and ssh, as well as many other things
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08:37:38 <kmc> "First of all, be aware that trains leaving from Kaliningrad runs on Moscow time an hour ahead of the local time. Thus a train advertised as leaving at 6:30PM actually leaves at 5:30PM local time. Comedian Yakov Smirnoff might have said, In Russia, trains leave on time but you get to the station late! Clocks at stations use Moscow time."
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08:46:17 <elliott> [Google Search] [Im Feluckiny] -- google
08:46:55 <kmc> are you drunk
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08:47:08 <elliott> Your search did not match any documents.
08:47:30 <elliott> How Drunk Free Online Flash Game - How drunk are you? Pass this ...
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08:50:11 <elliott> Oh nephew or jfk ~A slkm wfw bf Ku~e Au~e rh hfksjf months kwbf your weblog weblog fkj Oh f k f N ~E kjsf application kf Hmm,. z; cx, wkrwpkr "or 'Ah" zpk
08:50:45 <elliott> Te Teas ~Ike fixture and rare b lt ~Tsu Dji t ts department has ckly pile ~E rt ly rare ~Tsu Visit our Web Site in Tsu Tsu r g m not human
08:51:19 <elliott> kmc: If I write my program in Haskell, will it be 10x better?
08:52:10 <elliott> Inn La w m r g is the literal myp (b) What should 0x t should not have f s are determined l l Widgets
08:53:33 <elliott> I agree, don't talk to that drunk madman.
08:54:27 <elliott> I mad, don't drunk to that agree talkman.
08:54:41 <elliott> I man, don't agree to that mad talkman.
08:55:02 <elliott> Or the d N k N lk and Ru td ~Ya it was Don t For example there has been g
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09:06:20 <zzo38> What drunk madman?
09:09:48 <elliott> @tell ais523 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4512
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09:10:44 <zzo38> I realized another thing to do regarding the matching of headings in this program; using a list monad. In case of more than one possibility, the most specific one comes first but then it is >>= to something that decides all the choices next; and then take the head of the resulting list. If any branch has no more match, we just end with [] and then the next one will be tried.
09:12:59 <zzo38> Does *any* other programming language expand macros in this way????
09:17:39 <zzo38> If we need to have some more complicated tie breaking, one way to do so is to use WriterT [Int] [] so that the numbers are also given as the monoid which, if tied, are equal; and then the head of the final result we check the first however many entries have that equal tie, and then do tie-breaking based on that (resulting in error if it is impossible).
09:22:09 <elliott> zzo38: What would you do if you exploded *and* evaporated?
09:23:04 <zzo38> elliott: How can I do anything if I have exploded and evaporated?
09:23:38 <elliott> Hmm, I thought zzo38 proposed a featured language candidte.
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09:28:36 <zzo38> I haven't done so. I am simply describing possible features of WizardCard while thinking about it, to give anyone the opportunity to object to any of this, or endorse it, or something else.
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09:51:23 <elliott> Patashu "arrested for crimes against disto"
09:51:31 <elliott> you didn't anticipate the monqy police :(
09:52:25 <Patashu> I've tried disto a bunch, I don't think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages
09:52:28 <Patashu> I never used disto on my ogak run
09:55:46 <Deewiant> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4512 "Feather: A Heapless Functional Programming Language"
09:56:01 <elliott> Deewiant: 10:09 <elliott> @tell ais523 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4512
09:56:15 <Deewiant> Meh, I just lastlogged feather
09:56:45 <elliott> Deewiant: Did you see our NEW WIKI CONTENT? http://esolangs.org/wiki/♦
09:57:43 <zzo38> Do you like HAKMEM?
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10:14:35 <zzo38> I have read about a circle algorithm that uses only subtraction and shift, and uses no extra registers
10:15:38 <zzo38> And it is very simple; only a few instructions.
10:17:49 <Lumpio-> ...did you actually see the code?
10:18:58 <zzo38> Yes I did; but that was for an old computer and I have reimplemented the same idea on other systems
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10:21:11 <Patashu> I figured out how to do frequon invaders with one invader at a time
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10:25:23 <elliott> Deewiant: What time is it in Finland?
10:26:23 <Deewiant> 13:25:23 ( elliott) Deewiant: What time is it in Finland?
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12:26:23 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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13:41:57 <ais523> fun happenings in oracle v google; the jury found exactly 9 lines of code copied out of 15 million, Oracle look like they want damages for them anyway
13:42:10 <ais523> could lead to a hilariously small verdict
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15:58:01 <olsner> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fPlpZATsNDc clop clop
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16:31:10 <itidus20> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ano_Engxo8 >:-)
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17:16:25 <zzo38> If you made up the laws of a country, would it be permitted to eat peanuts and walk backward while a concert is on?
17:16:59 <zzo38> Good, because I do not see any reason to prohibit it.
17:17:17 <AnotherTest> that the depends who's eating those peanuts and walking
17:18:17 <zzo38> I mean in general.
17:25:41 <zzo38> Do you think video games are a "higher" pleasure than push-pin?
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17:27:54 <itidus20> zzo38: I have arrived at the conclusion that video games.
17:28:05 <lambdabot> nortti: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:28:17 <lambdabot> pikhq said 10h 42m 7s ago: No, but it has busybox awk!
17:28:17 <lambdabot> pikhq said 10h 41m 37s ago: BTW, sh4rm4's sabotage is at https://github.com/rofl0r/sabotage
17:28:35 <zzo38> Quoting from this book: "Push-pin is a child's game in which each player pushes or flips his pin with the object of crossing the pin of another player. In Bentham's time, it was a metaphor for a meaningless and trivial activity."
17:29:08 <nortti> pikhq: sh4rm4 said gawk is required to build sabotage
17:29:48 <itidus20> whats a pin? is it like a safety pin? a small nail? a button?
17:30:02 <zzo38> I don't know. I am only quoting what the book says.
17:30:15 <olsner> PIN, personal identification number
17:31:03 <zzo38> From the description I would guess it is simply a meaningless game where the pins will inevitably cross each other
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17:32:23 <itidus20> or perhaps that nothing is achieved if they don't. lol
17:34:35 <nortti> pikhq_: sh4rm4 said gnu awk is neded for building sabotage so busybox awk doesn't really help
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17:36:52 <itidus20> wiki says "The game is played by two or more players who each set one pin (needle) on a table."
17:37:33 <pikhq_> Impressive, considering stage 0 doesn't have gawk. Or, indeed, much beyond bootstrap linux.
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17:41:26 <nortti> pikhq_: thats strange. I'll have to try building sabotage on bootstraplinux sometime
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18:28:59 <Ngevd> Finnish people: should I entertain studying in Finland as an option?
18:30:36 <Gregor> No, but you should study entertaining in Finland as an option.
18:36:49 <olsner> Ngevd: Finland is just dark, cold and boring, no fun at all... I know because I have never been there
18:37:01 <oklopol> come to turku, we can be research buddies
18:38:37 <Ngevd> Does Turku do a maths course in English
18:39:20 <oklopol> that might actually be a bit of a problem, we have some professors who prefer finnish because english hadn't been invented when they started
18:39:39 <oklopol> so there's like two courses in english usually
18:43:22 <oklopol> yeah just a couple of good ones running
18:44:22 * Gregor is kind of boggled by the notion of a university that teaches non-language courses in various languages ...
18:44:58 * Ngevd technically lives in Europe
18:45:39 <oklopol> yeah some people prefer english, some prefer finnish in the math dep, it's annoying. the it dep uses just english, but computer science sucks so who cares.
18:45:55 <oklopol> although the fuck would you know, american.
18:46:08 <olsner> Gregor: stuff like that happens in places where people know more than one language
18:46:59 <oklopol> often language changes to finnish if there are no foreigners present :D
18:47:00 <Gregor> olsner: I suppose that's understandable, except that essentially it makes an implicit requirement of being /fluent/ in multiple languages ... if you were, say, a Russian looking to study in Finland, you'd have to learn two languages instead of one ...
18:47:14 <oklopol> but the stuff on the board is still in english in case someone comes
18:47:41 <Ngevd> Gregor, English is an international lingua frana
18:47:45 <olsner> Gregor: I think mostly you'd have to already know english, because lol finnish
18:47:52 <fizzie> We have a "policy decision" nowadays that many pre-Bachelor's-degree courses are done in Finnish, while all post-Bachelor's are in English.
18:47:52 <oklopol> Gregor: if a finn isn't fluent in english, they should not be in a university
18:48:40 <oklopol> fizzie: same one here in the it dep
18:48:45 <oklopol> do you have it everywhere?
18:49:14 <oklopol> some of the professors are so old they just know german and french
18:49:41 <fizzie> I don't really know, I remember it being discussed but I don't recall whether it was a department-, school- or university-level occasion.
18:49:57 <nortti> Ngevd: how you live technically in Europe?
18:50:29 <Ngevd> nortti, by the virtue of geography
18:50:39 <Ngevd> Unless you are questioning the "technically"?
18:50:45 <olsner> Europe, technically a good place to live
18:51:00 <olsner> technically living? why not do it in Europe!
18:51:22 <olsner> or maybe "why not technically live in Europe!"
18:51:44 <oklopol> Ngevd: what continent does it pretend to be on?
18:52:23 <Ngevd> oklopol, it's honest about geography, but we sort of have a "We're better than those silly Europeans" attitude ingrained
18:52:36 <olsner> ooh, I know this: the UK is in the continent of England, right?
18:52:53 <Ngevd> olsner, I dunno, ask Phantom_Hoover
18:53:16 <olsner> hmm, I don't trust his knowledge of these things
18:53:39 <Ngevd> See, this is why we suck at Eurovision
18:53:59 <oklopol> Ngevd: people say stuff like "spending summer in europe" here
18:54:56 <nortti> do some people think that ed is obsolete?
18:55:28 <olsner> is that a technically-not-lying way to pretend to have the fortune to spend summer outside finland?
18:56:06 <nortti> oklopol: I use it and I don't think it is obsolete
18:56:52 <oklopol> nortti: i use wordpad and latex
18:57:09 <oklopol> i've used ed for a few seconds and it was annoying
18:57:23 <Ngevd> oklopol: how does one navigate the University of Turku websitE?
18:57:29 <nortti> oklopol: what do you mean?
19:00:37 <oklopol> nortti: it was long ago, i don't remember
19:01:03 <olsner> the drink, your cue, the horse, the guy? o.O
19:01:06 <oklopol> Ngevd: press in english and realize it's 5% of the content...
19:01:26 <oklopol> http://www.sci.utu.fi/tdk/en/education/sguide/guide11-12/Mathematics.pdf
19:01:58 <oklopol> nortti: presumably i just couldn't do much with it without knowing how it works
19:02:39 <nortti> you can always use google translate!!!1
19:03:39 <nortti> oklopol: It isn't that hard to know how it works. Read man ed
19:04:18 <oklopol> Ngevd: that was through "in english" and pressing "study guide".
19:04:39 <oklopol> i suppose that's all the courses we have in english right now, which is pretty depressing.
19:06:13 <oklopol> now that i think about it, i wonder if it's even possible to do your undergraduate studies here, since just about everywhere, the undergraduate courses are in finnish
19:06:34 <Ngevd> I'll ask again in about 5 years, thanks!
19:07:06 <Ngevd> Isn't that one of the hardest languages to learn?
19:07:14 <Ngevd> And I've got, like, 2 weeks to learn Latin
19:07:30 <nortti> Ngevd: spelling no, grammar yes
19:07:35 <oklopol> 'man' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
19:07:35 <oklopol> operable program or batch file.
19:07:56 <Ngevd> I know most of it, I'm just being hard on myself
19:08:09 <nortti> oklopol: use linux/cygwin
19:08:13 <Ngevd> Well, most I need for the exam
19:08:29 <AnotherTest> oh and, the vocabulary; they have so much words!
19:08:42 <oklopol> nortti: i have yet to find an "install linux" button anywhere
19:09:04 <Ngevd> It's a one-and-a-half hour exam
19:09:10 <AnotherTest> Well then you can only hope it's not poetry
19:09:25 <nortti> oklopol: then install cygwin
19:09:29 <AnotherTest> because they have a separate vocabulary for that
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19:10:01 <nortti> oklopol: edit text files
19:10:08 <AnotherTest> Tacitus is really hard(sentences stretch over pages)
19:10:48 <nortti> oklopol: it has regexps on search/search and replace
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19:11:14 <Ngevd> It's adapted prose
19:11:18 <oklopol> okay, that is indeed useful every few years
19:11:37 <Ngevd> And Cicero's pretty nasty
19:11:45 <oklopol> some basic syntax highlighting is useful, so i use texniccenter when writing articles
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19:12:03 <Ngevd> nortti, so does Notepad++
19:12:05 <oklopol> Ngevd: a bachelor's degree doesn't take 5 years
19:12:26 <Ngevd> oklopol, it does if you still have a year left of high school
19:12:27 <nortti> also you can select area to find perform search and replace in (for example .,$s/regexp/string/g)
19:13:55 <Ngevd> oklopol, that may be counter productive
19:13:58 <oklopol> nortti: that's really not useful very often, at least i don't recall ever missing that feature, perhaps it would be more useful if i was used to it.
19:14:28 <oklopol> nortti: also i almost never write code, and when i do, it's usually in an ide.
19:14:50 <oklopol> Ngevd: high school is a waste of time, just go straight to a university.
19:14:54 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
19:15:23 <nortti> oklopol: also it doesn't take very much space (under 7kB on my system) and it can be used over very slow links
19:15:25 <elliott> Gregor: IF ONLY IT USED TRANSACTIONAL HACKEGO
19:15:47 <elliott> I love reasons for using software that boil down to "so I can simulate living in the 80s".
19:16:19 <oklopol> nortti: i have a couple of terabytes to spare, i'm not sure that's a very useful feature either :D
19:16:41 <nortti> elliott: Actually the version of ed I use is from 75
19:16:59 <oklopol> i rarely encounter slow links
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19:17:07 <oklopol> and i rarely use computers remotely
19:17:40 <oklopol> occasionally i do, but both connections are 100 Mb/s
19:17:55 <nortti> oklopol: well then you are probably better of wirh sonething else
19:18:30 <oklopol> i certainly am the better of wirh soneting else.
19:18:52 <oklopol> also learning new things is annoying if it has to do with computers
19:19:13 <Ngevd> Is that a fourteen line poem written by an electric screwdriver?
19:19:56 <oklopol> is what a fourteen line poem written by an electric screwdriver?
19:20:25 <Ngevd> The result of wirh soneting
19:21:19 <Ngevd> Sounds like "whir"
19:21:20 <oklopol> well i'm happy with it meaning an electric screwdriver
19:21:29 <oklopol> i think you're pronouncing it wrong
19:22:00 <Ngevd> I often transpose s's in four letter words begining with w
19:22:52 <Ngevd> As in, "whoa"/"woah"
19:25:12 <Ngevd> I'm in a noisy room, it's hard to hear
19:25:54 <oklopol> there must be something wrong with your ears
19:26:46 <Ngevd> I almost went deaf when I was 7
19:27:50 <Ngevd> Inner ears didn't grow properly
19:28:18 <Ngevd> I am an ENDLESS BARREL OF SURPRISES
19:29:27 <oklopol> why does the language of my keyboard keep changing? :D
19:29:42 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
19:29:42 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
19:29:42 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
19:29:42 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
19:29:43 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
19:29:43 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
19:29:45 <HackEgo> 419) <elliott> Gregor: do you have any idea how overrated lives are <Gregor> Damn right!
19:29:48 <oklopol> :----------------------------------------D
19:29:49 <Gregor> I am currently effing with the system, please stop X_X
19:30:07 <oklopol> Gregor: did you make a booboo?
19:30:17 <Gregor> No, the HD is just full again.
19:30:21 <Sgeo> We should play Mafia
19:30:22 <Gregor> I have no idea how I fill it so damned easily X_X
19:30:24 <Sgeo> Esoteric Mafia
19:30:44 <nortti> Gregor: how large is your HD?
19:31:09 <Ngevd> Sgeo, I'm awful at Mafia
19:31:27 <oklopol> i didn't know it was physically possible to have so little bits on a hd
19:31:29 <nortti> Gregor: how can you fill that?
19:31:34 <Gregor> oklopol: This is a VPS.
19:32:16 <Gregor> `echo Pip pip cheerio, I'm from the land of five pigs and hence speak with a Cockney accent in pithy phrases because Americans don't understand geography.
19:32:20 <HackEgo> Pip pip cheerio, I'm from the land of five pigs and hence speak with a Cockney accent in pithy phrases because Americans don't understand geography.
19:32:26 <Gregor> Whoops, it's the land of six pigs.
19:32:30 <Gregor> `echo Pip pip cheerio, I'm from the land of six pigs and hence speak with a Cockney accent in pithy phrases because Americans don't understand geography.
19:32:33 <HackEgo> Pip pip cheerio, I'm from the land of six pigs and hence speak with a Cockney accent in pithy phrases because Americans don't understand geography.
19:33:03 <oklopol> nortti: i can fill a 20G drive in an hour
19:33:46 <oklopol> well i'm capable of doing it faster, but i mean that's a pretty normal speed
19:34:02 <nortti> oklopol: what? I couldn't fill 6GB drive in a year
19:34:23 <oklopol> i downloaded 7Gb a few days ago
19:34:39 <Ngevd> nortti, you're actually in 1975
19:34:45 <Gregor> I have a 3TB drive, it's about 1/3 full after a half a year or so.
19:35:21 <nortti> Ngevd: IRC wasn't invented back then
19:35:22 <oklopol> Gregor: i watched the first episode of MLP
19:35:29 <Lumpio-> stop pirating all the things
19:35:52 <Gregor> Lumpio-: Hasbro really lost a lot of money on oklopol here.
19:35:56 <nortti> Gregor: that is just insane
19:36:08 <Lumpio-> Gregor: I was talking to you
19:36:24 <Gregor> Oh, because my disk is 1/3 full. Hmmm, what's on there ...
19:36:26 <Lumpio-> Or is your 3TB HDD full of "linux distros"
19:36:34 <oklopol> nortti: a season of a show takes about 10GB
19:36:41 <Gregor> The only videos I have on there are MLP, I don't think that's going to be 1TB.
19:36:47 <oklopol> and there's usually 10 seasons before it's worth watching
19:36:59 <Gregor> I have a youtube/ directory because I prefer to watch youtube by downloading and playing later, that's probably largish.
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19:37:14 <Gregor> My music directory tends to be bloated with pointless intermediary files.
19:37:24 <Gregor> Idonno, I haven't actually checked where the space has gone *shrugs*
19:37:29 <Lumpio-> I have about 1TB of video currently I guess
19:37:36 <Lumpio-> Another TB of backups (because I'm lazy and take full disk images of laptops)
19:37:58 <elliott> My drives are universally either almost empty or almost full.
19:38:06 <elliott> I never seem to go through an intermediate stage.
19:38:06 <oklopol> Gregor: i have 1.21TB used after a bit over half a year
19:38:22 <Gregor> <oklopol> Gregor: i watched the first episode of MLP // why did we not continue this conversation
19:38:29 <Gregor> oklopol: So, you watched exactly enough to be at a cliffhanger?
19:38:31 <oklopol> granted, i occasionally just make a copy of everything just to see diskspace get smaller.
19:38:34 <nortti> Gregor: I also have youtube/ and music/ but I still haven't filled more than 10% of my 30GB disk
19:38:47 <oklopol> trying to find the strength to continue
19:39:38 <Lumpio-> I have some 250GB of music
19:40:02 <Lumpio-> ...mostly because I downloaded the touhou collection (MP3 version, I'm not insane enough to download over a terabyte of FLACs)
19:40:07 <Gregor> oklopol: Incidentally, the first two episodes, while awesome, are thematically quite different from the series at large.
19:40:40 <augur> the guy who writes smbc commented on my comment on his recent comic
19:40:41 <elliott> Lumpio-: Pfffft, lossy music.
19:41:02 <Ngevd> elliott has all the Touhou on vinyl
19:41:06 <elliott> Lumpio-: No, this is purely a superiority thing.
19:41:28 <elliott> MP3 with a recent encoder at any reasonable setting is going to be transparent on all reasonable hardware and ears.
19:41:32 <Gregor> <augur> the guy who writes smbc commented on my comment on his recent comic // I think this makes you a celebrity!
19:41:39 <augur> http://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/tcjqt/glottal_stop_saturday_morning_breakfast_cereal/c4lg013
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19:41:54 <elliott> Gregor: Man, I gotta be a celebrity ten times over then!!!
19:42:07 <Gregor> elliott: It doesn't count for people from the land of six pigs.
19:42:15 <elliott> Did you know Tim Berners-Lee is on freenode? He types really badly.
19:42:31 <elliott> (Speaking of "BARELY celebrities" HAW HAW HAW)
19:42:41 <augur> well hes too busy inventing the web
19:42:42 <elliott> (Uh, there's no pun on "barely" there.)
19:42:45 <oklopol> Gregor: it wasn't bad, but there was very little sex and violence
19:43:03 <nortti> I use ogg vorbis for all of my music
19:43:19 * augur sexes and violences oklopol
19:43:30 <Gregor> oklopol: Not gonna find much violence I'm afraid. You have to sort of read too much into it for the sex, but it's there. Applejack and Rainbow Dash are definitely banging on the side.
19:43:35 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> Gregor: i watched the first episode of MLP [...] <oklopol> Gregor: it wasn't bad, but there was very little sex and violence
19:43:38 <HackEgo> 854) <oklopol> Gregor: i watched the first episode of MLP [...] <oklopol> Gregor: it wasn't bad, but there was very little sex and violence
19:45:17 <oklopol> Gregor: i liked how the main character is actually not annoying
19:45:52 <Ngevd> Ooh, this reminds me
19:46:12 <Ngevd> I need to buy one of my friends a MLP vest (British sense of the word)
19:48:02 <olsner> new private tab, goto /r/clop
19:48:53 <Ngevd> (This is for ironic climbing purposes)
19:49:22 <Gregor> "But it's so ... steep." "Well it /is/ a cliff. You could just, oh, I don't know, /fly/!"
19:52:09 <elliott> Hello!!!!!!!!!!!! Believe a dog
19:52:40 <elliott> monqy: Are you believing ?
19:53:06 <elliott> monqy: A small mammal , kind of lik ea kangeroo ; looks like a cat with the tail of a rabbit .
19:53:49 <elliott> monqy : If you die please report the incident to Dog Council , thanks.
19:55:42 <elliott> oklopol: i think monqy feel axiom
19:56:02 <elliott> Gregor: please tell monqy if he feel axiom
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19:56:26 <monqy> Gregor: what's axiom
19:56:30 <olsner> monqy: close your eyes, count to three, feel axiom
19:56:38 <monqy> wow it really works
19:56:49 <monqy> @ask elliott i feel axiome
19:57:14 <Gregor> @ask elliott Does monqy know how to @ask vs @tell?
19:57:19 <Gregor> @tell elliott No, no he does not.
19:57:27 <Gregor> @ask elliott No, no I do not.
19:58:01 <monqy> @tell elliott what's @ask vs @tell?
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19:58:17 <olsner> don't @ask, don't @tell
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19:58:30 <HackEgo> ais523: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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19:59:09 <lambdabot> monqy asked 2m 20s ago: i feel axiome
19:59:09 <lambdabot> Gregor asked 1m 55s ago: Does monqy know how to @ask vs @tell?
19:59:09 <lambdabot> Gregor said 1m 50s ago: No, no he does not.
19:59:09 <lambdabot> Gregor asked 1m 41s ago: No, no I do not.
19:59:11 <lambdabot> monqy said 1m 8s ago: what's @ask vs @tell?
19:59:23 <elliott> That,s a bit weird' don,t you think?
19:59:41 <olsner> elliott: `welcome works now, do you want to be welcomed?
19:59:42 <Sgeo> @ask Sgeo Blah blah blah.
19:59:54 <Sgeo> @ask Sgeo Blo Gno Mic?
20:01:05 <Sgeo> @tell Sgeo apparently I can't, because you won't let me.
20:01:17 <Sgeo> @tell yourself ok.
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20:01:25 <lambdabot> yourself: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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20:03:13 <HackEgo> elliott: This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
20:03:26 <elliott> I've been in the wrong place all these years?!
20:03:47 <olsner> yes, secretly, in your heart
20:11:40 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lego_Duplo
20:11:51 <Sgeo> I always thought that that was mostly what was meant by Lego
20:12:17 <Sgeo> (Of course, I saw exceptions online, e.g. with The Brick Testament)
20:12:50 <Sgeo> Oh, there are only hardness and size differences? Oops
20:12:58 <cheater> olsner do you know of a language which has blocks defined by indent (kinda sorta like python), and where you can define new keywords, which then completely define the syntax in the following block?
20:13:28 <Sgeo> cheater, Nimrod has macros, but I don't know if they're as powerful as you want
20:13:44 <Sgeo> You could start out in Forth and do things to your whim.
20:13:52 <Sgeo> Forth is complete control
20:14:00 <cheater> is complete control forth?
20:14:21 <Sgeo> Lisp (at least Common Lisp) is also complete control.
20:14:23 <cheater> ALSO: would be nice if the language were just haskell :(
20:14:53 <Sgeo> Well, hmm, no, Lisp is less control I think.
20:15:01 <Sgeo> Although not really less control of syntax
20:15:15 <Sgeo> More like less control of the ... runtime? Although I may be wrong
20:15:27 <cheater> i just want total control of the syntax, i guess
20:15:46 <Sgeo> Forth. Common Lisp, depending on what you mean by syntax.
20:16:03 <Sgeo> Factor I think
20:16:26 <cheater> like, i want the file to be parsed top to bottom, and then when the main parser sees a keyword that defines new syntax, control is completely given to a new parser defined for that keyword
20:17:08 <cheater> so if the outer language is E, then it has a keyword named runf which runs code in F, and then F could have a keyword called rung, which runs language G
20:17:21 <cheater> and F could also have rune which would run E
20:17:52 <cheater> so, the syntax changes only based on the context
20:18:06 <cheater> that would be cool to write in i bet
20:18:36 <cheater> you could have e.g. a language which is like haskell's IO, then have another language which is just list comprehensions
20:18:57 <cheater> i think it would be very nice.
20:20:52 <Sgeo> cheater, ... Forth's parser is, in some Forths, defined in Forth
20:21:22 <Sgeo> An example implemention of Forth showed comments being implemented.... in Forth. The Forth that it's implementing.
20:21:31 <Sgeo> After that point, comments work. Before that point, they don't.
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20:22:05 <cheater> maybe one day we'll have forthskell
20:22:10 <Sgeo> The example I was thinking of is Jonesforth
20:22:16 <Sgeo> cheater, they're practically opposites.
20:23:31 <Sgeo> http://git.annexia.org/?p=jonesforth.git;a=blob;f=jonesforth.S;h=45e6e854a5d2a4c3f26af264dfce56379d401425;hb=HEAD then http://git.annexia.org/?p=jonesforth.git;a=blob;f=jonesforth.f;h=5c1309574ae1165195a43250c19c822ab8681671;hb=HEAD
20:23:39 <Sgeo> The first is assembly, the second is Forth
20:23:41 <nortti> cheater: I recommend learning forth. It is very instersting and unique
20:24:15 <cheater> yeah you guys got me hooked
20:24:41 <Sgeo> It was mostly me
20:27:37 <cheater> yeah nortti did a nice sidekicking support there but the prize goes to Sgeo
20:27:44 <cheater> thanks Sgeo you make this channel so much cooler
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20:46:44 <ais523> elliott: trying to sort out some DNS issues
20:47:08 <elliott> hmm, you don't normally use virginmedia on weekdays, do you?
20:47:12 <ais523> virgin media's DNS didn't even have the number for Google, although it seemed to be missing not all of the websites, about half
20:47:21 <ais523> and I use it when not at work
20:47:29 <elliott> you're ever not at work? :)
20:48:51 <ais523> I'm usually not at work :)
20:49:01 <ais523> especially during exam season
20:49:16 <ais523> now, more confusing, eternal-september wasn't in level3's DNS either, but was in Google's
20:49:29 <ais523> so I'm on Google's DNS for the time being, and wondering what's up with the DNSes at the moment
20:50:13 <ais523> elliott: could you run "dig @4.2.2.1 news.eternal-september.org" and "dig @8.8.8.8 news.eternal-september.org" to confirm I'm not going crazy?
20:50:38 <elliott> maybe Verizon are sick of non-customers using their DNS
20:50:49 <ais523> elliott: same result here
20:51:21 <ais523> although, 4.2.2.1 isn't missing every internetsite, it's just missing eternal-september out of the ones I'm trying
20:51:34 <elliott> "internetsite"? seriously?
20:51:49 <ais523> elliott: I almost said "website", but news.eternal-september.org /isn't/ a website
20:51:52 <ais523> so I wasn't sure what to call it
20:52:12 <elliott> well, "domain" is the relevant thing here
20:52:14 <elliott> but at least "internet site"
20:53:17 <elliott> Gregor: I still can't believe freshmeat renamed.
20:53:36 <elliott> ais523: hmm, OpenOffice became an Apache project?
20:53:53 <elliott> why would Apache want to compete with LibreOffice?
20:54:17 <ais523> they wouldn't, it's just that they're who Oracle donated it to
20:54:27 <ais523> I'm not convinced they're even trying to maintain it
20:54:27 <elliott> are they going to merge it, then?
20:54:38 <elliott> well, there's a new release, with new features
20:54:55 <elliott> and a stupid slashdot comment to match
20:56:33 <elliott> monqy: your axiom is dying
20:58:57 <elliott> 21:58 <Ragdoll> it sounded pretty absurd
20:59:06 <elliott> monqy: ##crawl hasn't seen what i've seen :'(
21:01:48 <elliott> ais523: you missed a squarelos game btw
21:01:57 <ais523> and a squarelos game of what?
21:02:17 <monqy> I was just demonstrating option randomisation
21:02:29 <elliott> you were also demonstrating dying in the usual manner!!!
21:02:42 <ais523> "option randomisation"?
21:02:50 <elliott> monqy: ok you have to go again
21:03:11 <monqy> oh i have to play aghain?
21:05:08 <ais523> elliott: but now I've discovered Brogue, I have no reason to play or even watch Crawl
21:05:16 <elliott> ais523: squarelos is not "Crawl"
21:05:16 <ais523> I reached dlvl 15 in Brogue today, btw
21:05:23 <elliott> squarelos is just squarelos
21:05:31 <elliott> your language randomisation broke?
21:05:39 <ais523> using a staff character based around firebolt and conjuration
21:06:00 <ais523> I mostly died because I didn't get enough ID to identify the firebolt staff, so it ran out of charges at a bad time
21:06:05 <elliott> ais523: btw, squarelos games are about 10x faster than Crawl usually is, so you won't get bored :P
21:06:39 <monqy> elliott: language just doesn't get set until after those messages print
21:07:44 <elliott> ais523: are you not going to watch :'( (we'ere waiting for you)
21:08:05 <ais523> elliott: I'm not interested in Crawl, and I'm less interested in Crawl modded to be stupider than usual
21:08:13 <elliott> ais523: this isn't modded crawl!
21:08:24 <ais523> it's with an option file designed to make it stupid
21:08:37 <monqy> elliott: im offended
21:08:45 <elliott> ais523: you dont even know what squarelos is like!!!
21:09:12 <elliott> ais523: you just made monqy quit his game!!!!!!!
21:09:57 -!- ais523 has left ("<fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api").
21:10:15 <elliott> there is no regular text any more
21:11:46 <elliott> thats just the word </bold
21:13:31 <elliott> <Nomi> wow, why is pain so good
21:13:49 <elliott> monqy: is it secret that ive played monqys-crawl
21:14:01 <monqy> elliott: do you want it to be
21:14:11 <monqy> ok you can spoil it
21:14:31 -!- MoALTz has joined.
21:14:54 <elliott> ive spoiled with words and punctuation
21:20:48 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
21:22:11 <elliott> monqy: am i the second person to play monqys-crawl (am i special)
21:22:20 <elliott> also http://www.brandcrowd.com/logo-design/details/22830
21:22:34 <elliott> It's time for Times New Roman to show its wild side.
21:22:35 <monqy> you are the second person
21:23:09 <elliott> going downstairs not being very fun
21:23:20 <monqy> what do you mean not being very fun1!
21:23:22 <elliott> you could make downstairs always lead to somewhere with your back to the wall
21:23:31 <elliott> monqy: it's kind of repetitive getting crowded all the time!!!
21:23:47 <monqy> monster spawn changes will fix that!!
21:24:16 <elliott> monqy: nooo you'll ruin it
21:24:26 <elliott> what fun would monqys-crawl be if it was just like a 24x24 section of a regular crawl level
21:24:40 <elliott> ok i guess they could spawn in waves rather than all at once
21:24:49 <monqy> i didn't say what changes i was making
21:24:58 <elliott> i assumed they involved decreasing the spawns
21:25:13 <monqy> they'd decrease the crap spawns, and increase difficult spawns if necessary
21:25:29 <monqy> probably some ood rate increases
21:25:31 <elliott> that'll make getting surrounded be worse!!!
21:25:37 <elliott> btw what are you going to do to zot if you have
21:25:43 <monqy> but there will be fewer crap spawns so you won't be as surrounded!!
21:25:59 <monqy> probably make an encompass vault for each level or something
21:25:59 <elliott> you should make there be 27 levels of zot that would be gr8
21:26:07 <monqy> 27 levels for each branche
21:26:58 <elliott> monqy: problem with surround vault:
21:27:03 <elliott> no place for monqys to get in the way
21:27:18 <monqy> encompass vault is a technical term
21:27:24 <monqy> for a vault that takes up the whole level
21:27:33 <elliott> actually completely misread your line
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21:31:50 <elliott> upping the max size of a level, just so that the average level isn't so tiny
21:31:57 <elliott> a bunch of them don't reach 24x24
21:32:36 <monqy> i think it's fine as-is
21:32:42 <monqy> 24x24 is pretty big
21:32:55 <monqy> so smaller is fine
21:33:26 <elliott> you have weird level size opinions!!!
21:34:52 <elliott> monqy: i wish crawl just like
21:34:57 <elliott> smushed levels when they got too big rather than crashing
21:35:06 <elliott> so you could go down to e.g. Orc:4 and it'd be complete chaos
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21:40:13 <elliott> "The most important work is the
21:40:13 <elliott> category-extras package, which provides a very rich library indeed, including the famous zygohistoprepromorphism."
21:40:25 <elliott> dons, you wrote that 7 hours ago, there's no way you can't have noticed it's a big page saying it's obsolete!
21:40:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:41:27 <elliott> pasted in the dependency graph for the split-up category extras
21:41:36 <elliott> alongside other graphs from other packages that were typeclass graphs instead
21:41:48 <elliott> i think dons writes SO answers like monqy plays crawl
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21:44:05 <elliott> monqy: efreets are like ferrets right
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21:48:23 <elliott> "This seems to be getting on peoples nerves, but I honestly don't understand why, because no one is laying it straight for me. Is this what being married feels like?" ~~~~~~ drb226
21:50:41 <elliott> "Really hurt your butterflies?" d'awww
21:51:26 <elliott> 22:49 <Siveran> !lg * cv~~0.1. dam=1 xl=27 ktyp=acid -tv
21:51:26 <elliott> 22:49 <Sequell> 1. Nevar, XL27 NaFi, T:113031 requested for FooTV.
21:51:35 <elliott> i dont' even know wha tthe differences betwene hte splats are :'(
21:51:54 <elliott> tsplat esplat what's the difference "i sure as heck don't know"
21:52:08 <monqy> csplat is the old crawl version of splat tv that used to run on termcast but not anymore
21:52:30 <monqy> tsplat is when you use the sequell command in the {tsplat} learndb entry
21:52:36 <monqy> esplat is when you use the sequell command in the {esplat} learndb entry
21:52:40 <elliott> what's the differecen ebteween the two commands!!!!
21:53:03 <monqy> tsplat is 0.10+ tiles nonconstriction splats, esplat is 0.10+ nonhugeterm nonconstriction splats
21:53:13 <monqy> with the additional constraints that:
21:53:22 <monqy> * they've never been watched on footv before (ntv=0)
21:53:26 <monqy> * I forget the other constraint
21:53:40 <monqy> * oh right it picks the game with max xl
21:53:48 <monqy> * tiles guarantees nonhugeterm
21:54:04 <elliott> 22:54 <Henzell> esplat[1/1]: !lg * ((tiles || !@hugeterm)) cv~~0.1. ntv=0 ktyp!=quitting|leaving|winning killer!=tentacled monstrosity|greater naga|naga warrior max=xl -tv
21:54:04 <monqy> it's disjuncted with
21:54:23 <monqy> !@hugeterm looks at a !nick mapping
21:54:25 <elliott> but "tiles guaranteed nonhugeterm" -- monqy, 2012
21:54:38 <monqy> which is only a partial list that ##crawl maintains when it finds awful hugeterms
21:54:40 <elliott> are any tiles players in !@hugeterm
21:54:59 <elliott> monqy: i saw someone using 80x25 get added to hugeterm the other day
21:55:15 <monqy> 80x25 screws up the display a bit but not too much usually
21:55:20 <monqy> screws it up more if they use small_more
21:55:27 <monqy> I like small_more but I use 80x24
21:55:43 <elliott> i cant really hate on 80x25 because it's traditional too what with dos and all
21:56:34 <Sgeo> added to hugeterm?
21:56:34 <monqy> i don't hate on terminal sizes for the sake of them being big, i hate on them since it makes games unpleasant to watch and they mess up tv
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21:56:44 <monqy> 80x25 isn't so bad to watch on cao cdo etc but
21:56:50 <Sgeo> monqy, isn't that why everyone hates hugeterm?
21:57:10 <elliott> Sgeo: the bots have a list of hugeterm players
21:57:10 <monqy> just clarifying that i'm not senseless bigbashing!
21:57:32 <elliott> monqy: technically it doesn't make them unpleasant to watch if you use bigterm!!!
21:57:51 <monqy> using bigterm is unpleasant
21:57:56 <monqy> takes up so much of my screen, man
21:57:58 <elliott> 22:56 <monqy> i don't hate on terminal sizes for the sake of them being big, i hate on them since it makes games unpleasant to watch and they mess up tv
21:58:07 <monqy> not a contradicte eliot
21:58:57 <Sgeo> Would be cool if roguelikes somehow adjusted for the discrepency
21:59:33 <Sgeo> monqy, instead of trying to push out exactly what's being displayed, recalculate it
21:59:41 <Sgeo> (push out to watchers)
22:00:33 <elliott> "using a protocol other than tercmasting"
22:03:13 <elliott> monqy: what does cv~~0.1. do
22:04:09 <monqy> cv is the class of version or condensed version or something like that. basically it's like 0.10 or 0.10-a or 0.11 or 0.11-a or something. the version number and then -a if it's prerelease
22:05:15 <elliott> apocalypserobin must have been great fun to be a part of
22:05:19 <monqy> so that thing right htere is to restrict the version to things greater than 0.10-a
22:05:29 <monqy> since sequell doesn't have proper version comparisons
22:05:35 <monqy> just lexicographic string comparison
22:05:42 <monqy> which got screwed up come 0.10-a
22:05:59 <monqy> greater than or equal to 0.10-a
22:06:36 <elliott> i wonder how apocalypserobin handled hunger
22:06:41 <elliott> oh vampire i guess "in some way i don't understand"
22:07:10 <monqy> vampuires have speical hunger
22:07:24 <elliott> i know, but don't you still need blotions of pood
22:08:35 <monqy> depends on what you mean by need
22:10:57 <monqy> vampires don't starve
22:11:11 <monqy> they go bloodless, at which point they have full undead resists and don't regenerate naturally
22:11:37 <elliott> that would explain why it could just spend a year in the temple then
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22:16:33 <elliott> @tell monqy How do I use @ask?
22:17:52 <lambdabot> elliott said 1m 19s ago: How do I use @ask?
22:18:04 <Gregor> @ask Gregor Am I allowed to @ask myself?
22:18:36 <elliott> You can tell yourself, but can you ask yourself?
22:18:45 <elliott> @tell lambdabot You can tell yourself, but can you ask yourself?
22:19:00 <Sgeo> @tell that I said hi
22:19:18 <Sgeo> Well, that's not leaving the message queue anytime soon
22:19:41 <Sgeo> monqy, can you nick to ?
22:19:46 -!- elliott has changed nick to that.
22:19:54 -!- that has changed nick to elliott.
22:20:01 <monqy> I can't read that character sgeo
22:20:06 <monqy> or that characters
22:20:10 <Sgeo> It's whatever it is that happens with Ctrl-O
22:20:25 <elliott> 23:20 <elliott> @print-notices
22:20:25 <elliott> 23:20 <lambdabot> fromList [("\SI",(Nothing,[Note {noteSender = "Sgeo", noteContents = "that I said hi", noteTime = (1336513878,173020000000), noteType = Tell}])),[…]
22:21:15 <elliott> it has a fancy accent right
22:21:25 <Sgeo> si without fancy accent is if
22:24:29 <elliott> thanskfs monqy you're the greatest
22:24:38 <Sgeo> Does s mean yes or no?
22:24:56 <Sgeo> Does s mean yes?
22:25:06 <monqy> except when it means no
22:25:15 <Sgeo> Dangit, you know what I was trying to set up
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22:39:09 <elliott> monqy: who invented ##crawl
22:39:49 <monqy> chanserv says the founder's rax
22:40:01 <elliott> " sounds like aliens to me "
22:40:05 <elliott> i meant invent in a more fundamental sense but
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23:44:38 <elliottc> monqy: how much better is minor destruction than a dart anyway
23:44:45 <elliottc> it never seems to do much (not that darts do either)
23:44:57 <monqy> are you training invo? I forget.
23:45:07 <elliottc> ive just started "not even worshipping makhleb yet"
23:45:44 <monqy> a big plus of minor destruction over darts: you dont have to lug darts around or pick them up or otherwise manage them
23:46:06 <elliottc> the losing hp thing is kind of annoying since
23:46:11 <elliottc> the prime use for them is annoying stuff that takes off lots of hp
23:46:48 <elliottc> almost tried to go upstairs before going downstairs there to avoid a segfault
23:47:42 <monqy> the hp loss from minor destruction is negligible
23:48:03 <monqy> and it's mostly useful for finishing of fleeing things
23:51:45 <elliottc> 00:51 <Henzell> guardian spirit[1/1]: While wearing this amulet, damage you take is divided proportionately between MP and HP. Reduces magic to 0 on wearing. Note that a Deep Dwarf wearing this does not regain mana naturally.
23:51:56 <elliottc> get a ring of magic or something
23:53:41 <monqy> invocations skill gives you mp but makhleb invocations don't use mp
23:53:50 <monqy> so it's like free hp
23:54:00 <elliottc> good thing i died before realising that!
23:54:01 <monqy> assuming you don't have a better amulet
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23:54:04 <monqy> or other uses for mp
23:55:20 <elliottc> forgot i can't potion of mutation
23:59:03 <elliottc> am i seriously dying to a hobgoblin in front of sigmund
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00:03:28 <elliottc> 01:01 <Sequell> 5617. KiloByte the Grasshopper (L5 MuWr), slain by a giant newt on D:1 on 2010-01-20, with 265 points after 60641 turns and 0:15:00.
00:03:49 <elliottc> i feel like i'm missing something here
00:06:47 <monqy> might be a mummybot or from when there was this bug that screwed up realtime
00:08:01 <elliottc> monqy: anyway just fixing realtime doesn't explain it!!!
00:08:13 <elliottc> dying to a giant newt on D:1 after 60k turns is still impressive
00:08:54 <monqy> could have been a killsteal
00:09:31 <elliottc> now you're just giving me more options it could be !!!
00:09:42 <elliottc> You visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and saw 1 of its levels.
00:09:59 <elliottc> (http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/KiloByte/morgue-KiloByte-20100120-231230.txt)
00:12:25 <ion> Why do you have a centaur attached to your nicke?
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00:21:53 <monqy> looks like it was a killsteal
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00:37:49 <ion> I’m playing a MfBe and will probably die soon.
00:38:57 <ion> Thawl. A gnoll shaman on D:1.
00:39:27 <elliottc> 01:39 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled killsteal in my learndb.
00:40:19 <monqy> a killsteal is when one thing does the real work of the killing and something else does the final blow, getting the credit
00:40:29 <elliottc> its the spending 60k turns on D:1
00:40:37 <elliottc> monqy: oh that? i thought that was too obvious
00:41:17 <ion> monqy: I was under the impression Crawl distributes the experience based on how much work everyone did nowadays.
00:41:33 <monqy> ion: im talking about monsters killing the player, not the player and his allies
00:42:03 <monqy> i said i'm gone but actually i'm drinking this hot water
00:42:08 <monqy> i'll be gone after i finish
00:42:18 <elliottc> drinking hot water is basically like being gone
00:42:29 <monqy> because it's actually tea
00:42:31 <monqy> good day / im gone
00:42:51 <monqy> room temperature tea is gross
00:43:13 <elliottc> imo tea should be drunk at 0 K
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00:43:19 <elliottc> you never know what those atoms could do otherwise : /
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01:09:42 <elliottc> Wobniar sounds like a Pokemon.
01:11:53 <elliottc> ion: Stop playing, I can't decide between watching you and coolrobin.
01:13:35 <ion> Watch both!
01:18:29 <ion> He likes me, too.
01:19:06 <elliottc> ion: I'm going with coolrobin because you're hugeterm.
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01:33:30 <ion> Hmm. Glaives chop hydra heads off, halberds don’t, right?
01:34:34 <ion> No, halberds do, too.
01:43:51 <elliottc> ion: So why did you use correctterm that one game?
01:43:59 <ion> Forgot to resize.
01:44:07 <elliottc> You should have kept forgetting.
01:44:30 <elliottc> Honestly, you don't need that many lines of messages.
01:44:48 <ion> It’s not about the lines of messages, it’s about the size of the game map.
01:45:09 <elliottc> Right, so chop off a few lines of messages and you'll get something close in 80x24.
01:46:03 <elliottc> ion: You should abandon Trog for Xom.
01:46:08 <ion> Good idea.
01:46:27 <elliottc> Or die, but that's also an option you have now, so you're not losing anything.
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01:51:35 <elliottc> ion: What are you doing still with Trog?
01:51:49 <ion> Exploring a labyrinth.
01:52:05 <elliottc> Ditch Trog once you're done with the labyrinth, okay?
01:52:19 <ion> I’ll put that into consideration.
01:54:15 <elliottc> ion: By "put that in consideration", you mean "okay", right?
01:54:22 <elliottc> Come on, you're a merfolk. How hard can it be to deal with Xom?
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01:59:25 <elliottc> That's not how you spell temple.
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02:00:13 <elliottc> ion: You're stupid and boring.
02:01:22 <elliottc> ^rainbow CONVERT TO XOM IMMEDIATELY
02:01:22 <fungot> CONVERT TO XOM IMMEDIATELY
02:02:48 <elliottc> ion: Xom wants to welcome you!!!!
02:02:54 <elliottc> But he can't because you won't visit him.
02:07:42 <elliottc> WHATEVER YOU DON'T LI nice ring.
02:08:28 <elliottc> ion: Why aren't you wearing that ring. :(
02:09:01 <ion> I’ll replace the ring of hunger with it when i get a scroll of remove curse. :-)
02:09:17 <ion> I got both from the labyrinth.
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02:28:43 <ion> Wow, i didn’t even realize i had this good rF and rC.
02:30:28 <elliottc> ion: See? So there's nothing Xom can do to hurt you.
02:30:43 <elliottc> ion: OK, at least promise me you'll switch to Xom for the orb run if you get that far.
02:31:38 <elliottc> ion: Trog's wrath won't even bother you with that kind of timescale.
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02:34:05 <elliottc> ion: Ping me when you enter a branch or anything interesting happens.
02:34:23 <elliottc> (So I can yell at you to convert to Xom.)
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04:04:08 <elliottc> ion: So how do you deal with early-game gnolls? :(
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04:32:29 <zzo38> The diamond seem not even one of the characters it uses itself
04:33:01 <HackEgo> 12) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 85) <dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. \ 142) <alise> So basically we're having an awful lot of very dangerous intercourse. <alise> Involving open wounds. <coppro> I'm going to
04:44:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quasically: not found
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05:00:09 <zzo38> You can make Writer into Either by: uncurry (flip $ maybe Right (const . Left) . getFirst) . runWriter (but this is not the case of WriterT)
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05:02:10 <ion> elliott: Depends on what you have. :-)
05:05:16 <elliott> ion: Stop playing, I'm watching FooTV. :(
05:06:30 <elliott> 06:06 <Nomi> casmith789: did you hear about nethack 4?
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05:11:58 <ion> Is the dodging skill worth training when wearing heavy armoure?
05:13:23 <ion> Gonna do L:8
05:14:47 <elliott> ion: plz resize ur terminal
05:14:54 <ion> elliott: r
05:15:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:20:13 <elliott> 06:20 <xnmojo> tiles help you recognize monsters without having to check on the right or put yuor cursor over them. plus it adds flavor to the game
05:23:19 <ion> Ooh, shoals should be nice since i’m a mf.
05:33:34 <elliott> " In our hearts as they was in mind "
05:45:29 <elliott> ion: Are you still playing?
05:46:13 <shachaf> elliott: Did you hear about my exciting email from Prof. Don Knuth?
05:49:23 <zzo38> What message did you get? Knuth has no email, but I did once print out a message, put it in an envelope including address, give it to someone who was traveling there on business, who then gave it to the secretary of Knuth's office.
05:49:55 <shachaf> zzo38: His secretary (or someone) sent it to me.
05:53:02 <shachaf> He spoke with Ken Thompson and they agree that C89 shouldn't have allowed argc==0.
05:55:33 <kmc> i wonder if there are any security holes caused by executing setuid binaries with argc = 0
05:55:37 <zzo38> I agree too; argc should be positive since it include program name, it is a part of how C works. Except: Sometimes in case main is not a program loaded from some operating system, but instead is the operating system itself or something like that, then you should not try to access argc at all.
05:56:47 <zzo38> kmc: At least in the case of some programs I have written, there aren't any since all such programs intended to be setuid, I always check if it has correct command-line parameters first and the program terminates if it doesn't.
05:56:50 <shachaf> kmc: Unfortunately there isn't really a way to pass data in.
05:57:06 <shachaf> Although it can certainly cause segfaults. Maybe in some cases?
05:57:11 <shachaf> Hmm, you can pass data in in the environment.
05:57:35 <kmc> which comes right after argv on linux
05:57:37 <shachaf> Maybe something that reads too far into argv can be manipulated.
05:57:56 <kmc> i was thinking while (--argc) { ... }
05:58:05 <kmc> will loop forever if argc=0
05:58:15 <kmc> and read through the environment array on linux
05:58:31 <zzo38> When I write programs intended to sun with setuid, or meant to be called remotely, I am always careful about these things.
05:58:43 <shachaf> while (--argc) is an idiom that appears in several of Knuth's programs.
05:59:21 <zzo38> shachaf: But are they standard user programs? If so, it isn't such an issue.
05:59:44 <zzo38> If they are meant for setuid or remote, then you have to be more careful.
06:00:03 <kmc> well really it's undefined behavior
06:00:37 <zzo38> Either it will eventually wrap around or it will segfault before that happens.
06:00:40 <shachaf> kmc: Even if (argc != 2) { printf("Usage: %s BLAH", argv[0]); } is undefined behavior.
06:00:59 <shachaf> In fact printf %s with NULL used to segfault on Solaris libc until a few years ago.
06:01:19 <zzo38> shachaf: I have never done a thing like that; I understand C programming.
06:01:25 <kmc> shachaf: i wonder why you know that
06:02:24 <elliott> I forgot C doesn't specify signed flow.
06:02:29 <elliott> (What's a good word for (under|over)flow?)
06:03:15 <shachaf> zzo38: I've done a thing like that, and so have a bunch of other people.
06:03:28 <shachaf> Under the assumption that why would argc ever be < 1?
06:03:36 <zzo38> Instead of printf("Usage: %s BLAH", argv[0]); I will hardcode the program name (in a macro if necessary), and use fprintf(stderr,...) instead of sending the usage message to stdout, and include a line break.
06:03:59 <shachaf> zzo38: That was just for illustrative purposes.
06:04:31 <shachaf> zzo38: if (argc != 2) { fprintf(stderr, "Usage: %s BLAH\n", argv[0]); } is also UB
06:04:42 <elliott> *Is* there a good word for (under|over)flow?
06:05:00 <zzo38> Well, yes, it is; but as I was saying I do not like to use argv[0] like that
06:06:06 <zzo38> You can just call it overflow; I would use "underflow" only for stack underflow; but in case you don't like that then use different
06:06:15 <kmc> secure C programming is easy as long as you don't make any mistakes
06:06:22 <shachaf> kmc: Do you usually bike on "trips"?
06:06:36 <kmc> i think arithmetic underflow is a kind of arithmetic overflow, broadly speaking
06:06:50 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, it is a kind of arithmetic overflow I agree
06:07:00 <kmc> shachaf: you mean like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_lysergic_acid_diethylamide#.22Bicycle_Day.22
06:07:39 <shachaf> I think you linked to that before once.
06:07:55 <shachaf> I think it was on Apr 19, in fact.
06:08:23 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine is a program I have written in C and intend to make safe and secure; I look and am careful, and it probably is; but if you find something wrong with it then feel free to notify me (try to exploit it first if you want, as long as you cause no damage by doing so)
06:08:43 <shachaf> kmc: What's your long Julytrip going to be?
06:08:52 <elliott> kmc is all about the drugs. And trains.
06:09:01 <elliott> kmc: Have you ever been on a train... on acid?
06:09:09 <kmc> elliott: no
06:09:21 <kmc> i took 2C-E for an airplane trip though
06:09:57 <elliott> I once walked while on ibuprofen.
06:09:58 <kmc> shachaf: I'm (maybe) biking to Bethel, Vermont for Firefly, which is a New England regional Burning Man sort of thing
06:10:14 <kmc> or i might get lazy and take the train
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06:10:40 <kmc> it's like 150 miles, probably in 3 days
06:10:45 <elliott> 2C-E is really not a catchy name.
06:10:51 <elliott> They need to work on their marketing.
06:11:06 <kmc> i don't think it has even been popular enough to get a street name
06:11:09 <elliott> Drugs are totally ready for a disruptive startup.
06:11:19 <elliott> Just need some of that Y Combinator funding.
06:11:53 <kmc> how about genetically engineered E. coli which produce psilocybin
06:11:58 <kmc> that would be disruptive
06:12:21 <elliott> "Any street name is doomed to failure since 2C-E is simply not that distinctive for the majority of users."
06:12:34 <elliott> Quick, startup joke... uhh...
06:12:42 <kmc> i think it is pretty hard to distinguish the 5HT agonists, honestly
06:12:56 <kmc> everyone has their own pet theory about how shrooms are more foo and acid is more bar, but they don't really match up
06:12:59 <elliott> (I wonder if I'm on some kind of watchlist for that search.)
06:13:22 <kmc> i think many people could tell them apart in a double-blind test, but their criteria for doing so will not be transferrable
06:13:54 -!- pikhq has joined.
06:14:22 <elliott> Oh, I was going to sleep, wasn't I.
06:14:38 <kmc> YOU WEREN'T
06:14:50 <zzo38> Do you like the Internet Quiz Engine? Do you believe it is not a security breach?
06:15:16 <elliott> But if I don't sleep now, I'll sleep later. And probably not a later enough later to not wake up when it's dark or getting it.
06:15:17 <kmc> interquiz net engine
06:15:43 <zzo38> kmc: I meant the other one.
06:16:13 <elliott> I think "Do you believe it is not a security breach?" is a question that can only be prompted by something that demonstrates "it" is probably a security breach.
06:17:46 <zzo38> Well, there is no such demonstration I know of at this time, but it is written in C and the source-codes is available to public, and it can be accessed remotely.
06:19:07 <elliott> Hmm, Programming in the 21st Century seems to be devolving into self-reference a bit.
06:24:00 <zzo38> elliott: Are you tired? Is it dark?
06:24:18 <elliott> It was dark but then it stopped being dark and got light again.
06:24:34 <zzo38> Sleep if you like to do so, please.
06:24:42 <kmc> elliott: what is it
06:24:58 <elliott> kmc: The, uh, sky, I guess.
06:25:48 <kmc> imeant Programming in the 21st Century
06:26:04 <kmc> oh that blog
06:26:06 <elliott> http://prog21.dadgum.com/. It's a pretty good blog.
06:26:17 <elliott> Not as good as http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/, though!
06:27:45 <shachaf> whowrites arcanesentiment??
06:30:06 <kmc> prog21 claims to be a "super technical programming blog" but i just flipped through a half dozen articles and saw about 3 lines of code total
06:30:23 <kmc> http://prog21.dadgum.com/137.html
06:30:53 <elliott> I think that's more than a little joking. It was more code-focused a while ago, anyway.
06:30:58 <elliott> (By "a while" I mean "a few years".)
06:31:03 <shachaf> Perhaps the author has got a different "super technical programming blog"!
06:31:14 <kmc> also here's yet another person who thinks the entire and sole point of Haskell is to never use state
06:31:25 <kmc> (mainly in re the latest article)
06:32:07 <elliott> He's not exactly inexperienced with functional languages.
06:32:13 <zzo38> Then they should learn!
06:32:37 <elliott> Anyway, if you're using state, then it's only tenuously "functional programming" in the "declarative programming" sense most people use it to mean.
06:32:45 <elliott> Whether it's Haskell is another matter entirely, of course.
06:33:05 <elliott> ("State" here used as an abbreviation for "mutable state in the usual imperative manner".)
06:33:58 <kmc> it's a common fallacy; this article is not an especially strong instance
06:33:59 <zzo38> You can use state, and a bunch of other things, by using the correct computable mathematical representation of such things. And, isn't there some commands in Haskell to make these imperative kind of state in IO monad?
06:34:00 <shachaf> "functional programming" doesn't mean much.
06:34:18 <shachaf> (Alternatively, means too much.)
06:34:28 <kmc> means too many different things
06:34:31 <shachaf> One of my new goals on the Internet is to avoid arguments that are about words.
06:34:41 <shachaf> Unless they're explicitly about words, maybe.
06:34:41 <kmc> aren't all arguments about words?
06:34:55 <elliott> By that definition, everything is a "correct computable mathematical representation".
06:35:02 <shachaf> No, some arguments just use them.
06:35:03 <elliott> C is a correct computable mathematical representation because you can model it formally.
06:36:15 * kmc has a super technical programming blog
06:36:35 <shachaf> kmc: Arguments which stem from unshared definitions or axioms are probably rarely fruitful.
06:37:10 <shachaf> Definition disagreements are reasonably easy to overcome if someone notices and clarifies things.
06:37:23 * elliott is a super technical programming blog.
06:37:50 <shachaf> If two people have unshared axioms then an argument about theorems resulting from those axioms is mostly pointless.
06:38:11 <kmc> unless they explicitly acknowledge it, and are trying to justify their respective axioms informally
06:38:20 <elliott> http://ehird.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/computing-fib3-in-haskells-type-system.html -- is this super technical enough? (Okay, I never made any other posts to that thing. And also I broke the code before posting it because I didn't understand why "instance (C a) => D a" wouldn't work.)
06:38:27 <shachaf> I heard a rumour that a tradition in Indian philosophy is to say "these are my axioms; OK, these are your axioms; for the purpose of this argument let's just use the intersection"
06:38:59 <shachaf> That sounds too reasonable to be true, though. :-)
06:39:02 <elliott> kmc: Not every argument is about words. Some are about irreconcilable differences in value systems.
06:39:12 <elliott> I suppose you can make those to be arguments about words, too. (Such as the definition of "good".)
06:39:44 <pikhq> You can *make* nearly any argument be about words.
06:39:50 <pikhq> This is the art of "politics".
06:40:00 <kmc> also it's pretty cheeky for him to claim to be on "the cutting edge of functional programming research"
06:40:02 <shachaf> I can't work out whether elliott's /ignore is on the IRC level or on the elliott level.
06:40:18 <shachaf> kmc: Didn't you hear? "cutting edge" is the old "mainstream".
06:40:25 <elliott> kmc: Yes, cheeky, as in the position of his tongue when writing that.
06:40:28 <shachaf> You have to be on at least the "bleeding edge" to be worth anything.
06:40:33 <elliott> You're taking him way too seriously. :p
06:40:56 <kmc> sure it's tongue in cheek, but implicit in that joke is the assertion that actual published FP research is worthless
06:41:11 <zzo38> You should test it at first before writing the report.
06:41:21 <shachaf> kmc: Did you hear how the number of unordered n-tuples of elements of k is (n + k - 1) choose k?
06:41:28 <shachaf> Oh, I guess I did mention that while you were here.
06:41:43 <kmc> "look at this shit essay i wrote, and it's super popular now, I guess that invalidates everyone else working in this field"
06:41:45 <elliott> I don't think that's necessarily true; I think he was commenting more on the prominence of what he wrote in searches for the same thing, which had artificially made him resemble an authority. (But this is a silly thing to argue about.)
06:42:55 <elliott> I haven't used Icon. Maybe I should use Icon.
06:43:41 <elliott> "But any language that can implement its own interpreter isn't total!" Hmm, that sounds too vague to be strictly true.
06:47:47 <elliott> (Hey, does that statement correspond to Goedel's theorem?)
06:47:59 <elliott> (And is the vagueness fixed by requiring the same things it does?)
06:50:18 <zzo38> Yes at least to me it does seem like Goedel's theorem, too
06:50:55 <kmc> i think i agree with the prog21 guy more often than not
06:51:05 <kmc> i've linked a lot of people to "Advice for aimless excited programmers"
06:51:13 <elliott> zzo38: Yes, I think it does. You want to construct the program P = interpret(encoding of P).
06:51:39 <kmc> and i've frequently ranted about how "Let's reimplement all existing software, but in Haskell!" is dumb
06:51:56 <elliott> kmc: It's exceptionally dumb. They should do it in @lang intsead.
06:52:11 <kmc> extern "Haskell" { ... }
06:52:24 <elliott> @lang can't talk to Haskell.
06:52:33 <kmc> shachaf: did you know that GCC has extern "Java" { ... }
06:53:13 <pikhq> You should implement extern "@lang" { ... }
06:53:29 <elliott> Nothing can talk to @lang.
06:53:50 <kmc> elliott: then how will i write a video game??
06:53:54 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
06:53:55 <kmc> checkmate atheists
06:54:07 <zzo38> How is the computer going to do anything if the nothing can talk to the @lang?
06:54:16 <Sgeo> I'd use a device with a crappy UI if I understand the UI because I made it
06:54:20 <kmc> are there any ahead-of-time native compilers for C#
06:54:22 <zzo38> There must somehow be some command to do so.
06:54:39 <elliott> zzo38: It will mumble to an x86-64 computer if it has to.
06:54:42 <zzo38> Even if it is only the other way!
06:54:48 <elliott> But it will refuse to rise to the level of "talking".
06:55:08 <elliott> Also it'll be really rude about it, should I sleep.
06:56:30 <kmc> it's weird that there are no high-level "mainstream" languages with AOT native compilers
06:56:45 <elliott> AOT native compilers are sort of horrible to use.
06:56:55 <shachaf> kmc: There's gcj, isn't there?
06:57:04 <elliott> kmc: Does D count as: high-level; "mainstream"?
06:57:08 <shachaf> Admittedly that's not a mainstream compiler.
06:57:11 <kmc> maybe i should have put "mainstream" on "compilers" as well
06:57:15 <elliott> If so, checkmate Pythonistas.
06:57:15 <kmc> i don't think D is mainstream
06:57:20 <elliott> (...It had to sound similar.)
06:57:41 <elliott> TIOBE, also known for: absolutely fucking nothing else.
06:57:44 <shachaf> The Index Of Bad Estimates
06:57:50 <elliott> *nothing fucking, perhaps.
06:58:06 <elliott> LOOKING FURTHER AT THE TIOBE INDEX (this is my catchphrase), Lisp sort of counts.
06:58:20 <elliott> They think Logo is the 19th most popular programming language.
06:58:22 <kmc> maybe COBOL is high level
06:58:27 <kmc> nobody my age knows anything about COBOL
06:58:28 <elliott> I'm... not sure what's up with that.
06:58:47 <elliott> Probably a bunch of false matches for the word "logo".
06:58:59 <shachaf> kmc: Does Algol 68 count as mainstream and/or high-level?
06:59:09 <elliott> Apparently that's the 20th most popular programming language!
06:59:09 <kmc> shachaf: I guess so
06:59:22 <kmc> maybe Vala counts as both
06:59:25 <elliott> Algol 68 counts as "mainstream"?
06:59:34 <pikhq> It was at one point at least.
06:59:47 <elliott> My understanding was that nobody used Algol 68.
06:59:51 <shachaf> I have an Algol 68 interpreter installed on my machine.
06:59:53 <elliott> Because it's complicated as shit.
07:00:01 <kmc> Vala is used to write desktop apps, which we all know is the criterion for language success
07:00:02 <elliott> "ALGOL 68 is substantially different from Algol 60 and was criticised partially for being so, so that in general "Algol" refers to dialects of Algol 60."
07:00:41 * shachaf wonders whether there can be such a thing as cynicism overflow.
07:00:41 <elliott> There's a fork of the GNOME note-taking application Tomboy that tries to be completely identical in every way except it's written in C++ rather than C#.
07:00:50 <shachaf> Perhaps we can figure out a way to exploit kmc.
07:00:54 <kmc> Haskell might be used in financial analysis and bioinformatics and NSA cryptography, but it won't truly be mainstream until someone uses it to write a GTK+ app for downloading cat pictures
07:01:06 <kmc> actually ManateeLazyCat probably did that already
07:01:08 <elliott> I'm sure manatee can do that WHY THE FUCK AM I AWAKE
07:01:32 <kmc> i always thought haskell isn't and shouldn't be a "mainstream" language
07:01:36 <shachaf> Oh, I mentioned Algol 68 and then elliott mentioned it.
07:01:37 <kmc> but rather a language of many interesting niches
07:01:41 <pikhq> elliott: What time is it?
07:01:45 <shachaf> I guess elliott is reading my messages, just not replying.
07:01:45 <pikhq> And when did you wake?
07:01:48 <lambdabot> Local time for pikhq is Wed May 9 01:01:46 2012
07:01:52 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is 2012-05-09 07:01:52 +0000
07:02:04 <pikhq> When did you wake?
07:02:33 <zzo38> That seem to be late for wake up!!
07:02:45 <pikhq> elliott: Only 12 hours awake, then?
07:03:02 <elliott> I don't know, that's too much arithmetic for how tired I am.
07:03:20 <pikhq> ... You tired shouldn't be.
07:03:29 <elliott> Well, I didn't sleep much.
07:03:51 <kmc> shachaf: hey, i'm not *only* a cynic
07:04:22 <shachaf> Not *only* a cynic. A cynic with a super technical programming blog.
07:04:26 <zzo38> Some other programming language not used anymore is BLISS (there is a lack of modern implementation); C became common. Although, I (and some others too) think some ideas of BLISS are better designed than C. (LLVM is also better designed than C)
07:04:51 <elliott> "LLVM is better than C" is my favourite zzo38 opinion.
07:05:16 <kmc> depends what you're using it for
07:05:43 <shachaf> Why would you write actual code in C?
07:06:04 <kmc> i still think C is a pretty good language in its niche
07:06:16 <shachaf> Its niche being "languages that are C"?
07:06:29 <kmc> but it's not "close to the machine" or "a portable assembler"
07:06:34 <elliott> pikhq never even answered me. :(
07:06:34 <zzo38> elliott: Well, LLVM does lack macros and so on; but if we can make something that has some features of BLISS and also all the LLVM commands, and then translates everything that isn't direct LLVM command into the LLVM commands, and then it will compile; would be good idea.
07:06:46 <kmc> shachaf: who's the cynic now :(
07:06:46 <pikhq> elliott: I vote "not unless you're tired".
07:06:55 <elliott> kmc: it's a portable PDP assembler, which doesn't contradict anything you said :P
07:07:04 <elliott> I miss real CISCs. (note: I've never used a real CISC)
07:07:27 <shachaf> pikhq: Should've voted: "iff you're tired"
07:07:32 <zzo38> kmc: C is, I suppose, pretty good language in its niche, but it has some bad designs
07:07:47 <pikhq> It continues to bother me that people think C is "close to the machine". It's not all that close to x86 ASM, which itself is pretty abstracted from the hardware.
07:07:49 <kmc> also by "C" i mean C99 with a variety of GNU extensions
07:08:03 <elliott> pikhq: So is that yes if you are tired?
07:08:10 <shachaf> Once it was easy to tell what C's bad designs were.
07:08:17 <pikhq> And the idea that it's "portable assembler" makes for some astonishingly bad C.
07:08:17 <shachaf> But then I forbade de signs of the bad designs
07:08:21 <kmc> pikhq: well I think "close to the abstraction presented by the hardware" is a valid meaning of "close to the machine"
07:08:25 <kmc> so i try to reserve judgement
07:08:36 <kmc> but yes many people are misinformed here, and it bothers me
07:08:39 <shachaf> elliott: I bet I'm more tired than you.
07:08:43 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is 2012-05-09 07:08:43 +0000
07:08:47 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Wed May 9 00:08:41 2012
07:08:51 <kmc> C isn't particularly close to the absraction presented by the hardware, either
07:08:52 <elliott> kmc: You would have fit in here great a few years ago when I was complaining about all the same things.
07:08:58 <pikhq> kmc: 'Cept it's not *that* close to x86.
07:09:02 <kmc> but it's a good deal closer than most languages people use
07:09:05 <elliott> It should only take you a few months to decide to write an OS.
07:09:10 <pikhq> I mean, memcpy is a single instruction.
07:09:19 <kmc> C compilers do a lot of fancy non-local optimization
07:09:21 <elliott> Then some bad things happen though, SORRY THAT'S FATE.
07:09:24 <zzo38> I want a computer that can be programmed in Checkout
07:09:31 <kmc> elliott: you were complaining about this before it was cool?
07:09:50 <pikhq> Well, strcpy, sorry.
07:10:05 <kmc> isn't memcpy also?
07:10:18 <shachaf> There's an instruction that decrements ecx and checks if it's 0 or something.
07:10:29 <kmc> but there's also rep movs
07:10:32 <ion> There’s a Portal 2 sale.
07:12:31 <elliott> The consensus is that I sleep, right?
07:12:33 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
07:12:57 <shachaf> ion: Huh, Portal 2 supports user-made puzzles these days?
07:13:23 <pikhq> shachaf: As of, uh, today.
07:13:42 <kmc> i guess strcpy is repne movsb
07:14:09 <shachaf> All these great instructions.
07:14:22 * kmc <3 those instructions
07:14:25 <pikhq> Alas, those have undefined behavior.
07:14:42 <shachaf> pikhq: I'm pretty sure an Intel and/or AMD manual defines the behaviors of those.
07:14:47 <kmc> there are particular chips which define both
07:14:57 <shachaf> kmc: I want a disassembler that shows what each instruction actually does!
07:15:01 <pikhq> shachaf: Sweet jesus on a stick.
07:15:07 <kmc> intel calls rep nop "pause" but it's encoded as rep nop
07:15:10 <ion> shachaf: Apparently something like that, yes.
07:15:22 <kmc> it's a spin loop hint
07:15:25 <shachaf> The Intel manual has a pretty precise description of each instruction in sort-of pseudocode.
07:15:51 <shachaf> Probably a lot of it could be cut out to fit the context (you know whether you're in long mode and so on).
07:15:53 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ian#DEC_VAX
07:15:58 <pikhq> elliott: 日本語で寝られるの
07:16:01 <shachaf> This would be a useful feature of a disassembler program.
07:16:17 <kmc> and "rep ret" is a workaround for a bug in some AMD branch predictors
07:16:27 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Timeline_of_esoteric_programming_languages#AS.2F400
07:16:28 <shachaf> pikhq: Yay, I can read the first three characters of that!
07:16:32 <kmc> but the new advice is to use "ret 0" instead
07:16:38 <shachaf> Actually I can read the first two and then make a heuristic guess at the third.
07:16:59 <pikhq> shachaf: The heuristic guess is almost certainly right. :)
07:17:23 <elliott> Note to self tomorrow: fix unsigned tempalte on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Turing-complete.
07:17:38 <elliott> Also correct myself wrt hosted C and CHAR_BIT.
07:17:39 <shachaf> Is it a particle? What's a particle?
07:18:01 <pikhq> shachaf: In this context, yes.
07:18:21 <elliott> I'm going to sleep assholes.
07:18:32 <pikhq> shachaf: Actually, all the ones where "yes" is a sensible answer.
07:18:42 <elliott> All these assholes are so slept.
07:18:43 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:18:52 <pikhq> "で" is a particle meaning something along the lines of "by means of"...
07:19:46 <pikhq> The sentence translates as "You can sleep in Japanese"
07:20:17 <pikhq> "nihongo de nerareru no"
07:20:33 <shachaf> That big complicated thing is just pronounced "ne"?
07:20:46 <pikhq> japanese-language by-means-of sleep-able explanation
07:21:29 <shachaf> So why not just write "ne"?
07:21:35 <shachaf> RIDDLED YOU THERE, DIDN'T I
07:21:56 <zzo38> Perhaps, so that it can be understood
07:22:00 <pikhq> Cause that'd be ね, not 寝.
07:22:12 <zzo38> That is why not just write "ne"
07:22:16 <pikhq> See, so much harder to read.
07:22:45 <zzo38> It has nothing to do with how hard it is to read, but with how hard it is to understand, which is different.
07:23:08 <pikhq> I mean, 中華人民民主主義共和国 is much nicer than ちゅうかじんみんみんしゅしゅぎきょうわこく.
07:23:37 <pikhq> "Democratic People's Republic of China"
07:23:45 <pikhq> Longest all-kanji phrase I could pull out of my ass.
07:24:51 <pikhq> Yes. China is the "middle country" donchano
07:25:14 <pikhq> (they literally thought they were the center of everything so they called themselves that.)
07:25:43 <shachaf> I'm trying to figure out what 中 is.
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07:25:56 <shachaf> Without looking it up. Too easy, right?
07:26:05 <shachaf> pikhq: To be fair, everyone thought they were the center of everything.
07:26:14 <shachaf> What a pity they were all wrong until America came along!
07:26:17 <pikhq> "Middle", "center".
07:26:33 <shachaf> Should I look at it as mouth-thing + line-thing or something?
07:26:42 <pikhq> That is how it's written, yes.
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07:27:02 <zzo38> I am even play mahjong. I know it means center, and in Japanese mahjong this tile is called "chun"
07:27:16 <pikhq> Single line going top-to-bottom.
07:27:33 <pikhq> If you write really fast it ends up looking a little bit like ゆ
07:28:27 <shachaf> 00:23 < pikhq> I mean, 中華人民民主主義共和国 is much nicer than ちゅうかじんみんみんしゅしゅぎきょうわこく.
07:28:38 <shachaf> 華 looks like it has a bunch of things.
07:29:27 <pikhq> I don't think I ever see it outside of 中華.
07:29:51 <pikhq> I don't even remember the semantics, cause it's basically only there.
07:30:42 <shachaf> 人 means "life" or "person" or something like that?
07:31:08 <Kray> person or human
07:31:09 <pikhq> Also, I did the wrong damned phrase.
07:31:33 <pikhq> "People's Republic of China".
07:31:38 <pikhq> They're not officially democratic.
07:32:08 <pikhq> "People", in the sense of "people's"
07:32:17 <shachaf> I thought we already had "person".
07:34:27 <pikhq> 人民 is "people's", as used in the names of communist countries.
07:35:14 <shachaf> That looks like a thing-thing next to a mouth-thing.
07:35:40 <pikhq> 共和国 cooperative-peaceful-country ish = republic
07:35:54 <kmc> much of that stuff about the AS/400 seems decidedly not-stupid
07:37:33 <kmc> strongly typed pointers, unified ram/disk address space, hardware garbage collection
07:37:37 <kmc> these all sound great
07:38:42 <kmc> also AIUI the instruction set is a virtual-ish thingy which the OS compiles to model-specific native instructions
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10:17:42 <cheater_> kmc: the problem with doing all that in hardware is that you're stuck with it.
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10:19:12 <cheater_> i think we've seen many OSes and langs improve considerably especially because they've been designed for a comparably fairly minimal hardware platform
10:20:10 <shubshub> My idea is to create a language built specifically to make games in batch
10:20:27 <shubshub> Basically you have a script telling it what to d eg
10:21:10 <shubshub> Its Geniusi thought it up in a split second
10:21:33 <shubshub> or sprite do shoot enemy at position x y
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10:22:11 <shubshub> if sprite do shoot enemy at x y results miss do sprite do shoot enemy at new position x y
10:23:29 <kmc> cheater_: well like i said the instruction set is a virtual-ish thingy which the OS compiles to model-specific native instructions
10:23:39 <kmc> and i think you can use those native instructions too
10:24:10 <kmc> if you specify garbage collection instructions then in the worst case you implement them in software, as now
10:25:31 <shubshub> game start with player at position x y and enemy at position x y and not win
10:26:02 <shubshub> anyway ima go work on this new language wish me luck
10:29:02 <cheater_> kmc: yeah but you also mentioned hardware features
10:29:25 <cheater_> were typed pointers a hw thing?
10:29:58 <kmc> that one is probably hard to emulate without hardware support
10:30:10 <cheater_> man, i've spent way too much time reading up on vintage op amps.
10:30:23 <cheater_> kmc: you just have a software gc, no?
10:30:36 <cheater_> i'm big on recording equipment and stuff
10:30:50 <cheater_> and i hit a link about the jensen 990 randomly
10:30:58 <cheater_> last time i searched for that stuff i could find nothing
10:31:05 <cheater_> now the web's full of that stuff
10:31:57 <cheater_> that's mostly just info about 4 different op amps
10:32:38 <cheater_> did u kno: the first op amps were just pcb's with components on 'em
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10:33:06 <cheater_> then they started potting that stuff in resin and calling it an "integrated circuit"
10:33:22 <cheater_> the nice thing about discrete op amps is that they have amazing headroom
10:33:29 <cheater_> and lots of current capability
10:33:39 <cheater_> so they are really good for like, high-end mixers
10:34:22 <cheater_> you can get really low noise too
10:35:07 <cheater_> in the meantime i ended up listening to biosphere - cirque and it totally put me in the zone gathering info about that stuff
10:35:20 <cheater_> that guy's music is fairly hypnotic
10:36:47 <cheater_> hey kmc, do you know of anything in linux that could slow down disk io considerably?
10:37:11 <cheater_> maybe some sort of debug libs or a misconfiguration
10:38:19 <cheater_> i've noticed for some time my pc's disk operation was very slow, but i thought it was just a bit older than usual, but now i started comparing that with network IO and it's much faster when i get data from the network directly, without hdd access
10:38:37 <cheater_> e.g. browser using or not using a local squid instance
10:39:02 <kmc> it's expected that network IO to a good server over a fast pipe will be faster than a shitty local hard drive
10:39:03 <cheater_> flash videos while it's buffering vs while it's done downloading (the former really ends up skipping around)
10:39:12 <kmc> this sounds severe though
10:39:25 <kmc> echo 1 | sudo tee /proc/sys/vm/block_dump
10:39:27 <cheater_> well notice that just a pending download in youtube can slow things down
10:39:34 <kmc> that will start to spew block layer events to the system log
10:39:38 <kmc> maybe you see something in there
10:39:46 <kmc> misconfiguration of the block device can do it too
10:39:58 <kmc> check hdparm, maybe dma is disabled or something
10:39:59 <cheater_> i think i started with 8.something
10:40:06 <kmc> boot a livecd and see if block performance gets better
10:40:22 <kmc> i don't know what filemon is
10:40:37 <cheater_> filemon is a windows thing from sysinternals, shows you all file operations happening on your pc
10:41:07 <cheater_> i thought maybe linux is doing something like that and reporting it to some api and hogging down because of this
10:41:38 <kmc> i don't know how to get all file events on linux
10:41:46 <kmc> you can get them for individual files/directories using inotify
10:41:58 <cheater_> maybe there's some sort of inotify fuckup
10:41:58 <kmc> oh also check iotop
10:42:04 <kmc> and see if some program is hogging the IO bandwidth
10:42:19 <cheater_> i'd know that, the hdds would be running constantly
10:42:33 <cheater_> it's like, every time there's file io it has a constant wait time
10:43:18 <kmc> how about IO scheduler settings
10:43:20 <kmc> cat /sys/class/block/sda/queue/scheduler
10:43:31 <kmc> and then i think there are a bunch of tunables
10:43:35 <kmc> but i don't know what to do with them
10:44:06 <cheater_> example: in gnome press alt-f2 and you get a popup for running a program
10:44:18 <cheater_> i press alt-f2 and while i'm typing it tries to autocomplete or something
10:44:27 <cheater_> and the window freezes for like half a second
10:44:55 <cheater_> however if i quickly type, e.g. nm-applet, and press enter, then it closes the window immediately and starts the program
10:45:32 <cheater_> while doing that i look at iotop but nothing conclusive happens
10:45:59 <cheater_> gnome-panel (which is what spawns the window) shows up at the top of iotop but for a split second and it doesn't bump any summaries
10:46:46 <cheater_> actually the last one was a lie, it does bump "total disk read" but only to like 800 K/s
10:47:09 <kmc> try killing random parts of gnome until it stops
10:47:09 <fizzie> There's that new blktrace thing for IO tracing.
10:48:21 <cheater_> HDIO_GET_DMA failed: Inappropriate ioctl for device
10:48:30 <cheater_> HDIO_GET_DMA failed: Inappropriate ioctl for device
10:48:54 <cheater_> manual says: -d get/set using_dma flag
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10:49:22 <fizzie> "hdparm -i" should show the mode it's using with a *.
10:49:54 <fizzie> I suppose using_dma is some sort of a specific thing for a specific case.
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10:51:19 <cheater_> UDMA modes: udma0 udma1 udma2 udma3 udma4 udma5 *udma6
10:52:46 <cheater_> hdparm -i shows me around 75 MB/s, that shouldn't be so bad then
10:52:58 <cheater_> can it be that something in linux is eating cpu while i'm writing to disk?
10:53:32 <cheater_> i'm using gvfs for some things, but of course not for the root (which is what would be written to and read from by all the cases i described)
10:56:54 <cheater_> maybe it's even something in gnome - do e.g. flash or firefox use some sort of gnome api for fs access?
10:57:45 <kmc> flash would use firefox for fs access
10:57:51 <kmc> i don't think firefox uses gvfs but it's possible
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11:00:41 <cheater_> oh the gvfs thing and the flash/firefox disk access thing were separate ideas
11:00:56 <cheater_> i don't think firefox would be like.. specifically using some sort of gvfs api.
11:02:52 <kmc> well you said "some sort of gnome api"
11:04:32 <cheater_> # cat /sys/class/block/sda/queue/scheduler
11:04:56 <kmc> ok, cfq is the default and is usually sensible
11:05:18 <cheater_> "hdparm -i shows me around 75 MB/s" < that should've been -t
11:05:47 <mroman_> What's the smallest turing-complete esolang?
11:05:54 <mroman_> And by smallest i mean "least instructions"
11:06:14 <kmc> one instruction
11:06:19 <mroman_> (without production rules or i/o)
11:06:31 <kmc> subtract and branch if negative
11:07:38 <kmc> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Subleq
11:08:30 <cheater_> <kmc> try killing random parts of gnome until it stops < there's not much gnome to kill really, i've got gnome-panel, gdm-simple-slave, gnome-keyring-daemon, gnome-session, polkit-gnome-authentication-agent-1, gnome-power-manager, gnome-screensaver, /usr/lib/gnome-disk-utility/gdu-notification-daemon,
11:09:26 <cheater_> why a disk utility needs a daemon is beyond me though
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11:20:29 <kmc> i'm... not really sure
11:20:45 <kmc> the one that's actually debian
11:20:49 <kmc> debian unstable
11:20:56 <kmc> i don't have a gnome login session
11:21:01 <kmc> my preferred amount of gnome is 0
11:21:23 <kmc> but i like to use certain applications which in turn launch various of those gnome daemons
11:21:37 <kmc> every so often I will get annoyed and try to disable most of them
11:21:37 <cheater_> yeah i need you to be using gnome-panel though
11:21:52 <kmc> i have no panel or status bar of any kind
11:21:57 <cheater_> because i want someone to strace their gnome-panel
11:22:12 <kmc> you should ask #ubuntu
11:22:15 <kmc> [troll suggestion]
11:22:48 <kmc> not all of them do
11:23:21 <kmc> 10.04 LTS desktop is still supported
11:23:29 <kmc> and was the most recent LTS until like last week
11:23:37 <cheater_> it only gets strong arm support
11:24:09 <cheater_> kinda like those parents that beat their children because they "love them"
11:24:35 <cheater_> 10.04 is that kind of abuse case i guess
11:24:43 <kmc> right then
11:27:49 <kmc> cheater_: what should i do next for mosh
11:32:07 <qfr> Add an audio player
11:33:01 <cheater_> troll suggestion: hidden cmdline switch that engages a plasma visual
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11:35:39 <kmc> screw 32-bit color
11:35:44 <kmc> double-precision HDR floating point
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13:08:54 <nortti> Yay! Got my system unfucked. ^_^
13:12:33 <kmc> what was the fuckage?
13:13:45 <nortti> kmc: /sbin/init was broken
13:15:03 <kmc> that'll do it
13:15:19 <kmc> how does it happen?
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13:15:47 <Lumpio-> I once fixed a server that had an error in a shellscript inside initrd
13:15:56 <Lumpio-> Or well, busybox itself didn't quite run correctly
13:15:59 <Lumpio-> Weird, weird boot failures.
13:16:51 <nortti> Lumpio-: /sbin/init was symlink to broken busybox which got broken because power cable fell out of my computer's power socket when I was updating
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13:19:02 <Lumpio-> ...my thing had somehow gotten a busybox that wouldn't work correctly in an early boot environment
13:19:15 <Lumpio-> It wanted procfs to be mounted to work correctly
13:19:28 <Lumpio-> Which was one of the things the shellscript it was supposed to run was supposed to do.
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13:25:29 <kmc> out of curiosity, which distros were the two of you using
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13:55:49 <qfr> Arch Gentoo
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15:47:03 <Gregor> @tell esolang_1234 1) You don't need an account on the wiki to make a page, anonymous editing is allowed. 2) There are no sensitive credentials required to create an account, why not just make one?
15:48:09 <kmc> there should be esolangs named BF and Brainf*ck and Brainf**k, each vastly different from Brainfuck
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15:59:43 <itidus21> i wonder if multitasking increases cases of internet addiction. as drowning in browser tabs can tell us, when men (i simply do not know about women) have the opportunity to multitask they create for themselves task-debt
16:01:03 <itidus21> moreover that one of the fundamental differences between how we do things with a computer and without is probably the multitasking
16:01:32 <kmc> i like how you assume this is gender dimorphic for no reason
16:01:51 <kmc> and by "like" i mean "kill all humans"
16:02:02 <itidus21> reason = a lifetime of growing up being told women are better at multitasking
16:02:42 <itidus21> as for the task thing, im wrong about that too of course since multi tasking is about cpu time more than user interface time
16:03:23 <itidus21> and maybe that xerox didn't get a chance to finish these GUI ideas before they got rushed out the gate by apple/microsoft
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16:12:31 <kmc> looks like you're multitasking itidus21
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16:31:26 <itidus21> so my concern is not so much with process or application multitasking, but specifically user interface multitasking
16:33:03 <itidus21> although it has it's uses, theres probably better ways it could be done.. i guess unix/linux command line users have already known this a long time
16:34:23 <itidus21> like.. in windows.. i often find myself opening a notepad to transfer a piece of text between two apps
16:34:58 <itidus21> but somehow i imagine on a command line theres just "better" ways such needs are met
16:35:49 <itidus21> and often it's for formatting... like to remove linebreaks when posting in irc.
16:37:55 <itidus21> to make matters worse, with regard to the broswer, each tab having it's own history.. there should really be a tree to map those links
16:38:21 <itidus21> instead of an array of tab histories
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16:40:17 <itidus21> in general, i don't think it is of much benefit for me to start doing 30 things with computer before i have finished the first 1
16:41:32 <olsner> you should probably start by making sure it's of benefit for you to do anything at all
16:41:56 <olsner> (I have decided that it's better for me to do nothing at all, for example)
16:43:21 <itidus21> i don't think anyone else here has any such problem.. so yeah.. if anyone wants to buy deranged ranting services.. you know where to call
16:43:41 <kmc> but why would i pay when i get it for free?
16:44:35 <itidus21> even snake venom is useful for developing antivenom
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16:45:20 <elliott> 07:35:54: <kmc> much of that stuff about the AS/400 seems decidedly not-stupid
16:45:42 <elliott> yeah, but I suspect it'd have been doomed to slowness with the rest of the "true" CISCs
16:46:01 <olsner> oh noes, did I miss a discussion about mainframes?
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16:50:18 <itidus21> olsner: i will consider that. (those 2 posts) is as good as anything the chinese have ever written.
16:51:11 <itidus21> the 2 lines he put before elliott arrived
16:51:18 <kmc> what about the chinese
16:51:44 <itidus21> well it sounds like the kind of thing they would say in their ancient philosophies
16:52:20 <itidus21> but i actually think the chinese elucidated some of the most concise and minimialist philosophical advice
16:52:45 <olsner> A student asked Master Yun-Men (A.D. 949) "Not even a thought has arisen; is there still a sin or not?" Master replied, "Mount Sumeru!"
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16:53:06 <olsner> itidus21: stuff like that is what they say in "the ancient philosophies"
16:53:28 <olsner> itidus21: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koan
16:53:47 <olsner> Two hands clap and there is a sound. What is the sound of one hand?
16:53:53 <itidus21> ive not really looked into them
16:53:58 <nortti> does anyone know how to change keyboard config for linux virtual consoles
16:54:06 <elliott> 13:16:51: <nortti> Lumpio-: /sbin/init was symlink to broken busybox which got broken because power cable fell out of my computer's power socket when I was updating
16:54:12 <elliott> and this is why package managers need atomic updates
16:54:48 <elliott> 15:25:59: <esolang_1234> Hey... I have an idea for an esolang
16:54:48 <elliott> 15:26:33: <esolang_1234> but I don't have a wiki account :(
16:54:48 <elliott> 15:26:54: <esolang_1234> Can someone create it for me?
16:54:48 <kmc> yeah i was trying to remember if Debian did this right or if I've just never interrupted an upgrade this way
16:54:50 <elliott> 15:26:59: <esolang_1234> I'
16:54:52 <elliott> 15:27:08: <esolang_1234> I'll give the info.
16:54:53 <nortti> elliott: How would that have helped? the binary itself was corrupted
16:54:58 <elliott> kmc: debian doesn't do it right in the general case
16:55:07 <elliott> nortti: because the power would have cut before the binary would be swapped
16:55:13 <elliott> which would happen at the very end of the update process, atomically
16:55:31 <elliott> kmc: but it might have some special hacks for important packages, dunno
16:55:42 <elliott> I don't know of any package manager than Nix that can update more than one package atomically
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16:57:29 <elliott> olsner: like two hands clapping but half as loud
16:57:57 <kmc> elliott: you cracked the code
16:58:04 <kmc> we need to get you on the phone to the Pope of China immediately
16:58:17 <kmc> checkmate buddha
16:58:30 <elliott> silly hindus and their koans
16:58:38 <kmc> ice cream koan
16:59:42 <elliott> Well, "cone" isn't pronounced ko-AN.
17:00:08 <Gregor> Yes, it's pronounced ko-ahn. That's not really enough to ruin the pun.
17:00:27 <kmc> a good pun is impossible to ruin
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17:03:33 <elliott> Gregor: Where's all the economy giraffes?
17:03:55 <Gregor> elliott: No soap, radio!
17:09:07 <kmc> radish sort
17:42:47 <elliott> kmc: look at this great haskell question http://stackoverflow.com/revisions/10521189/1
17:44:00 <kmc> how can i resist
17:44:25 <cheater_> you've trolled newbies a million times
17:44:40 <cheater_> you don't go for easy things like that any more
17:47:05 <kmc> elliott: nowhere is it advertised as a haskell question
17:47:38 <kmc> edited one minute ago by don stewart
17:48:32 <kmc> i like that it allows the input file to inject arbitrary code
17:48:34 <cheater_> i guess he's back from his hiatus
17:48:40 <cheater_> when are you back from your hiatus kmc
17:48:58 <kmc> arbitrary code injection is par for the course in C hacks
17:49:07 <kmc> but it takes some skill to get it in Python hacks
17:49:43 <kmc> "Convert it to a while loop. You are hitting recursion limits, basically, so if you remove the recursion, your problem should go away"
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17:53:57 <elliott> i didn't actually read the code
17:54:17 <HackEgo> rszeno: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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17:55:13 <rszeno> thank you elliot, alredy read it, this is why i'm here
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17:58:55 <zzo38> I say the free category is not a forward category transformer any more than the free monoid is a forward monoid transformer, but both are valid backward transformers.
17:59:48 <Ngevd> Category transformers: monads in disguise
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18:00:36 <zzo38> Ngevd: No, I mean functors, where it is a general functor which can act on any category to a new one, instead of a normal functor which is only from one category to another
18:01:05 <Ngevd> zzo38, I'm still less than a novice at category theory. I was making a Transformers pun
18:01:23 <zzo38> (The free monad is also a backward monad transformer, not a forward one)
18:02:32 <zzo38> Ngevd: Then learn, from Wikipedia and so on
18:04:52 -!- itidus20 has joined.
18:08:20 <Ngevd> itidus20, want to learn category theory with me?
18:08:55 <itidus20> probably not a good time considering i keep having connection dropouts
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18:10:19 <itidus20> i must say i have recently seen videos advising people about the difficulty of getting a math phd.. and i am probably more out of my ballpark than i realize
18:10:34 <itidus20> even though, category theory is 2 innocent words.. both of which i already feel familiar with
18:11:06 <Ngevd> Words mean little, they only work in combination
18:11:08 <itidus20> category being.. lets say.. horror movies.. versus romance movies.. theory being
18:11:50 <itidus20> for people like me it's an imagined explanation for something... more formally it means something more formal
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18:13:38 <itidus20> i assume (wrongly) that all i need to know about category theory could be summarized in 2 - 3 neat paragraphs written in simple english.
18:13:52 <nortti> http://esolangs.org/wiki/♦ dafuk
18:14:16 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:♦
18:14:57 <elliott> If you don't want a confusing page that breaks the site layout like that, bring it up on the talk page :P
18:16:24 <zzo38> itidus20: If you think so, then see if the Simple English Wikipedia has such an article
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18:17:05 <zzo38> Then look at the normal Wikipedia
18:17:31 <itidus20> i probably couldn't learn it in 5 years
18:18:30 <itidus20> i havent tested my intellect.. i don't know in practice what i am capable of or not
18:18:58 <itidus20> the ability to overcome laziness certainly must help a lot.. and easily discountable
18:20:51 <zzo38> Simply, a category consists of a set of objects, and morphisms, each of which has a source and target. If you have a morphism with source A and target B, and another with source B and target C, they can be composed, and composition is associative. There is also an identity morphism for each object, with the source and target both that object.
18:21:19 <zzo38> That is what it is. Is this OK?
18:24:37 <elliott> I didn't know that was possible.
18:25:01 <elliott> 19:24 <playings> I have to login there at mantis main_page. My online gaming account does not seem to qualify for this
18:31:14 <nortti> remotely rebooting machine is a bit strange experience
18:31:49 <elliott> Oh, pyralspite finally died.
18:32:04 <elliott> Or at least, it doesn't respond to pings.
18:32:35 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/ieMS weird
18:39:46 <zzo38> I don't like Haskell's deleteBy function; whose idea was that? I have replaced them by: deleteF :: MonadLogic m => (x -> Bool) -> m x -> m x;
18:40:55 <rszeno> elliot: is up and running but reject icmp
18:40:59 <elliott> zzo38: congrats, you have replaced deleteBy with filter . (not .)
18:41:26 <elliott> rszeno: strange. its httpd is dead too. it's a VPS, so I guess the machine itself is down but their routing is doing something funny
18:41:34 <elliott> it'll probably disappear soon
18:41:36 <zzo38> elliott: No, it only delete the first one!!
18:42:18 <zzo38> (That is what the MonadLogic constraint is for, so that you can tell which one is first; if you don't care then you use MonadPlus, which is what my version of filter uses)
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18:52:08 <elliott> Taneb: Hey, remind me to ask Graue to redirect esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/* to the corresponding esolangs.org archive.
18:52:47 <cheater_> kmc: i thought of your brain feedback device when i saw: http://www.valkee.com/uk/science.html
18:55:19 <itidus20> brain feedback.. well i certainly have some views about such things which would not sit well
18:55:43 <oklopol> itidus20: category theory isn't really a very active field afaik
18:55:45 <itidus20> but naturally that means i am going to go ahead
18:55:59 <nortti> (think I (are s-expressions (pretty easy to understand)))
18:57:01 <itidus20> the slowness of the muscles of the fingers, and of the eyes scanning text, etc.. provides a buffer to prevent humans being overworked
18:57:24 <itidus20> but.. if the brain is reached directly bypassing the rest.. then the buffer is in danger
18:57:43 <zzo38> oklopol: However, category theory can make a lot of things! (Including, category with one object for a monoid, a thin category of a partial ordering (since they have the same laws), etc)
18:57:46 <oklopol> itidus20: well you've seen all you need to know about categories now, so let's do number theory. 0 is a number and if n is a number then S(n) is a number.
18:57:56 <itidus20> the work required will expand to meet the labour available, and everyone will basically be a lot sadder for it
18:59:01 <Taneb> elliott, I'm too busy trying not to fall asleep
19:00:00 <itidus20> and in all this, the whole concept of work as being intended to make life easier for humans in general (is this ever actually true?) will be lost.. further removed from potential utopia
19:00:49 <itidus20> oklopol: i didn't say i read what zzo said >:)
19:02:06 <oklopol> zzo38: for me at least, category theory is most useful in that you can describe certain ubiquitous phenomena with universal properties. because that is nice.
19:03:14 <itidus20> i don't need to say that.. sorry
19:04:56 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes, that is one of the things it does. But it also does a large number of other things.
19:06:47 <oklopol> i don't think the fact that groups, monoids and partial orders can be thought of as categories is very useful for the common working mathematician.
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19:08:21 <oklopol> "itidus20 and in all this, the whole concept of work as being intended to make life easier for humans in general (is this ever actually true?)..." it is true that work makes life easier for people, yes.
19:08:45 <oklopol> if no one worked, there would be nothing to eat.
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19:09:34 <lambdabot> esolang_1234: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:09:53 <oklopol> zzo38: btw disclaimer: it is possible that you know more about category theory than me, since i don't know anything about it.
19:10:11 <elliott> esolang_1234: I saw your messages in the logs; you can edit the wiki anonymously, you just have to fill out a CAPTCHA
19:10:23 <elliott> but the registration process is simple (it doesn't require an email or anything)
19:10:27 <oklopol> with category theory, i feel i have to mention this fact, since in all other branches of mathematics, none of you ever compare to my divine excellence.
19:10:33 <esolang_1234> But I really * Ack(4,3) don't like giving my ip address to the public.
19:10:43 <oklopol> oerjan is just me in a disguise
19:10:47 <elliott> register an account, then; that doesn't expose your IP to anyone but administrators
19:11:05 <elliott> it's just a username and password :p
19:11:16 <elliott> hate to break it to you but
19:11:19 <elliott> 20:07 esolang_1234 has joined (40d8777d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.216.119.125)
19:11:23 <kmc> hi, i want to edit your website but i am unwilling to do it in any of the supported ways
19:11:32 <kmc> so plz accommodate me specially
19:11:54 <oklopol> could someone please put that ip on the front page
19:12:04 <elliott> a few people read the logs regularly... probably slightly less than read recentchanges
19:12:10 <oklopol> esolang_1234: anyway i'm like you, i understand.
19:12:14 <elliott> I'll hide the revision if anyone does
19:12:27 <oklopol> took me years to make an account, and i don't like using it
19:12:47 <Taneb> Oh, that reminds me
19:13:00 <elliott> esolang_1234: a few of the users (mostly me and oerjan) clean up pages formatting-wise after they're created
19:13:02 <Taneb> I still need to define Dilston
19:13:25 <esolang_1234> elliott: I'm at school, and esolangs.org is blocked
19:13:28 <Taneb> It's a hamlet to the East of Hexham
19:13:34 <elliott> we're blocked from schools? :D
19:13:37 <oklopol> elliott: don't do what btw, say things like that or actually do it?
19:13:46 <elliott> oklopol: don't put the IP on the main page
19:14:05 <oklopol> elliott: do you think i know how to do that? :D
19:14:05 <Taneb> oklopol, also a future esolang that can only be Turing complete if the collatz conjecture is false
19:14:11 <elliott> :( lame, they couldn't even give us a proper reason
19:14:16 <Taneb> esolang_1234, email of the people blocking?
19:14:18 <elliott> i bet they just block all wikis or someting
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19:15:10 <oklopol> elliott: it's all because brainfuck isn't censored.
19:15:10 <Taneb> esolang_1234, esolangs.org is blocked, but IRC isn't!?
19:15:14 <ais523> hi people who said hi to me
19:15:30 <elliott> oklopol: i'll move the page to b****fuck :)
19:15:43 <oklopol> okay, then i'm sure everything will be fine
19:15:48 <elliott> ais523: what about the people who neither said hi to you nor didn't?
19:16:03 <elliott> you phrased it in such a way as to avoid the excluded middle
19:16:10 <oklopol> so i was reading up on ordinals today
19:16:17 <Taneb> esolang_1234, weird
19:16:23 <elliott> I guess you could say that there could be elements of S in neither S nor S - T
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19:16:33 <Taneb> esolang_1234, can you upload a screenshot of the "this page is blocked" page?
19:16:36 <oklopol> i was like o__o the whole time
19:16:42 <elliott> Taneb: it'll probably be a boring standard thing
19:16:48 <elliott> I doubt anyone's gone out of their way to block esolangs.org specifically
19:16:52 <Taneb> elliott, at least there may be an email
19:16:54 <oklopol> and by that i mean i felt like an inverse skateboard
19:16:56 <elliott> it's not exactly a massively popular timewasting site...
19:17:01 <elliott> Taneb: they probably consider the block valid
19:17:36 <Taneb> esolang_1234, does the block page list an email address?
19:18:13 <Taneb> I remember once the recent pages page of the wiki was blocked in my school
19:18:16 <Taneb> For gambling reasons
19:18:24 <elliott> We do a lot of gambling on Esolang.
19:18:33 <Taneb> http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff508/Taneb/ohno.png
19:19:01 <Taneb> Yes, the office was closed
19:19:02 <elliott> Man, remember when the c in Special:Recentchanges was lowercase?
19:19:02 <kmc> "i bet you $50 the next esolang is a brainfuck derivative"
19:20:13 <elliott> shachaf: Have you been sending me /msgs?
19:20:25 <cheater_> what properties would a language need so that the cost of execution of a program can be calculated
19:20:29 <oklopol> was esolang_1234 going to up a lang or what was this about, i haven't really been reading any of the lines?
19:21:13 <Taneb> esolang_1234, been done at least twice?
19:21:43 <nortti> Taneb: three times at leadt
19:21:46 <oklopol> does "don't take my idea" imply "and that's it", because it sounds like it
19:21:59 <elliott> esolang_1234: but that's what one of My Name is Johny, What the F**K?'s designs was basde on too!
19:22:03 <elliott> you might want to check out WireWorld, btw
19:22:11 <elliott> which we don't have an article on; what an injustice
19:22:27 <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sir._Cut for one
19:22:28 <oklopol> or do you have a CRAZY twist
19:22:31 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Noit_o%27_mnain_worb too, perhaps
19:22:34 <oklopol> does your language have ordinals
19:23:01 <esolang_1234> Well, mines more like (-1,-1)Input (0,0)Xor (1,1)Out (-1,-1)>(0,0) (0,0)>(1,1)
19:23:17 <ion> Finished Portal 1. It was very good but quite short.
19:25:13 <esolang_1234> Basicly, signals travel on wires, and get input at STDin and output at SDTout
19:26:16 <esolang_1234> Not=If no sig, sig Or=If at least one sig, sig And=If all possible sigs, sig (like vNCA) Xor=If sum of sigs is odd, sig
19:27:24 <esolang_1234> and if you make a page for it, (IDK if you don't) can you name it LogicWire?
19:27:41 <esolang_1234> Lol, like anyone would want to make a page for it.
19:28:15 <oklopol> how much do you know about logical circuits?
19:28:33 <nortti> esolang_1234: why do you think it is TC?
19:28:42 <elliott> esolang_1234: does it have any kind of looping?
19:28:48 <oklopol> flip flop is already something
19:28:50 <elliott> can you write a program that runs forever, for instance?
19:28:58 <esolang_1234> Each sig affects the logic gates it points too.
19:29:14 <oklopol> if there's a concept of time, then this is probably tc
19:29:29 <esolang_1234> Just make a loop with Or gates, and connect one of the wires to STDout.
19:29:35 <oklopol> in the sense that a periodic infinite configuration can do arbitrary computation
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19:29:47 <nortti> esolang_1234: is is possible to use unlimited amount of memory
19:30:27 <esolang_1234> Well, I guess you should be able to define unlimited wires.
19:31:57 <nortti> esolang_1234: unlimited as in unbouded storage machine's tape, not as in LBA's tape
19:32:52 <nortti> esolang_1234: seems like it
19:33:43 <oklopol> if you allow a way to describe infinite configurations, this will be more interesting though.
19:34:06 <nortti> "Crowd of people gathered on a street to watch two criminals being hanged to death, which was like the 19th century equivalent of a reality show (but somehow more tasteful)."
19:34:20 <oklopol> it's not really something that's been explored much
19:35:45 <esolang_1234> I don't know. I never thought this would be so confusing. Well, I guess it doesn't have to be TC
19:36:16 <oklopol> see if, once the program has been written, there's a limit on the amount of states where it can be during the run of the program, then you cannot have TCness with most definitions.
19:36:16 <esolang_1234> And making a copy command will make the interpreter solve the halting problem.
19:37:21 <esolang_1234> Of course, makeing a build "gate" might make it TC, but it would be TC (too complicated).
19:37:59 <oklopol> because if you can bound the maximal number of states the program can use before you start running it, then you can, algorithmically, decide whether it halts or not (or whether it will behave in a certain way)
19:38:27 <oklopol> i don't really get what you're saying
19:38:35 <oklopol> why would the interpreter need to solve the halting problem?
19:38:38 <nortti> esolang_1234: how does adding copy command make interpreter solve halting problem?
19:39:22 <esolang_1234> IDK. I was thinking about mutiple TMs interacting.
19:39:49 <oklopol> okay i was thinking about butterflies when i wrote mine
19:40:30 <esolang_1234> but "LogicWire" isn't TC, so its probably not possible.
19:40:59 <esolang_1234> And you might not be able to see them. Remember the first GoL metacell?
19:41:14 <oklopol> i don't know what logicwire is
19:41:26 <oklopol> might not be able to see what?
19:41:34 <oklopol> i remember _a_ gol metacell
19:41:44 <oklopol> or rather, i remember that one exists
19:41:55 <esolang_1234> conwaylife.com is blocked, so I can't link it :(
19:43:31 <oklopol> i didn't know about this wiki, should probably look at it :D
19:44:15 <oklopol> http://conwaylife.com/wiki/Topology okay this wiki sucks
19:44:32 <oklopol> (topology is the main tool in the study of cellular automata)
19:44:56 <oklopol> and that's not even about the topology that's used
19:45:07 <elliott> oklopol: lifewiki is mainly focused on documenting the patterns
19:45:28 <oklopol> still worth taking a glance at
19:46:15 <elliott> oklopol: Did you see http://conwaylife.com/wiki/Gemini when it came out?
19:46:27 <elliott> It's a replicator-based spaceship.
19:46:43 <elliott> (The first replicating pattern constructed; it replicates itself and then deletes the praent.)
19:47:01 <oklopol> elliott: still, having a topology page like that is like if conservapedia had a page on god that said "God is a concept in theoretical religion theory."
19:47:16 <oklopol> except topology is so much better than god
19:47:31 <elliott> "God is the sovereign creator and eternal ruler of all things and beings that exist, whether in the physical universe or in the spiritual realm (Heaven). Not only is God the creator and ruler of the things and beings within those two realms, but he is also the creator of the realms themselves. God created the physical universe, and before he acted in this creation, the universe did not exist. Likewise God did with the spiritual realm.
19:48:13 <oklopol> well pretty much what you expected, no?
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19:49:30 <kmc> that paragraph reads like legal boilerplate
19:50:27 <nortti> yeah. I still can't believe conservapedia is not a joke
19:50:42 <oklopol> yeah unlike those many other paragraphs on god that mean something
19:50:45 <kmc> i assume at least large parts of it are
19:51:02 <elliott> There are really only about six serious editors of Conservapedia.
19:51:24 <elliott> But they're all sufficiently mad that it's highly likely they consider many satirical edits legitimate.
19:51:40 <oklopol> http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.6902 have you seen this
19:51:42 <ais523> do they still have the threat to sue anyone who vandalises it?
19:51:47 <kmc> i thought a lot of it was written by homeschooled christian kids
19:52:01 <elliott> Did you know Conservapedia disproved relativity as liberal?
19:52:06 <kmc> oklopol: lolwut
19:52:06 <elliott> http://conservapedia.com/E%3Dmc²
19:52:08 <kmc> i love arxiv so much
19:52:14 <elliott> E=mc² is a meaningless, almost nonsensical, statement that purports to relate all matter to light.[1] In fact, no theory has successfully unified the laws governing mass (i.e., gravity) with the laws governing light (i.e., electromagnetism), and numerous attempts to derive E=mc² in general from first principles have failed.[2] Political pressure, however, has since made it impossible for anyone pursuing an academic career in science
19:52:14 <elliott> to even question the validity of this nonsensical equation. Simply put, E=mc² is liberal claptrap[3] .
19:52:19 <kmc> elliott: relativity = moral relativsm
19:52:22 <elliott> (That's not trolling, most of that was actually written by Schlafly.)
19:52:29 <elliott> It continues: "Biblical Scientific Foreknowledge predicts that a unified theory of all the laws of physics is impossible, because light and matter were created at different times, in different ways, as described in the Book of Genesis."
19:52:31 <oklopol> the author is not a crackpot btw
19:52:39 <elliott> See also: http://conservapedia.com/Counterexamples_to_Relativity
19:52:50 <elliott> "In Genesis 1:6-8, we are told that one of God's first creations was a firmament in the heavens. This likely refers to the creation of the luminiferous aether."
19:53:28 <elliott> kmc: "Comments:Please note that the publication date is April 1st 2012"
19:53:40 <elliott> I wonder if arxiv adds that automatically.
19:54:27 <elliott> Really, Conservapedia would be much less entertaining if it was just Fox News: the wiki.
19:54:34 <elliott> It's far worse than that in reality.
19:54:37 <oklopol> also it's very tastefully done, i liked it
19:54:51 <nortti> also read conservapedia's articles on evolution, atheism and socialism
19:55:43 <elliott> nortti: No, those are all the boring, tame stuff.
19:56:39 <oklopol> does it at least define atheist as someone who worships the devil
19:57:26 <kmc> the demon god Atheor
19:57:27 <elliott> "Atheism, as defined by the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, and other philosophy reference works, is the denial of the existence of God.[2][3][4]" *yawn*
19:57:39 <kmc> anyway I think quoting conservapedia is poor form
19:57:44 <kmc> trolling by proxy
19:57:45 <oklopol> they're being wrong wrong.
19:58:15 <elliott> kmc: Most trolls are not nearly as entertaining as Conservapedia.
19:58:28 <elliott> Especially IRC trolls. I'm upping the standards!
20:00:46 <oklopol> playing with ordinals feels so wrong... and yet somehow so, so right.
20:01:12 <elliott> http://conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_obesity Okay, I'll give them credit for this title.
20:01:23 <elliott> Wow, it's 49 sections long.
20:01:35 <elliott> "Stephen Fry is a homosexual and an atheist." Good caption.
20:02:44 <Sgeo_> I feel like an outlier
20:03:01 <Sgeo_> I still don't quite understand their point, though
20:03:16 <kmc> that's like http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:SIR_448_at_Great_Kills_Station.jpg&oldid=61691747
20:03:35 <nortti> "Their irrational closed-mindedness against the Bible obstructs the advancement of science ."
20:04:01 <kmc> "accurate but does not describe picture"
20:04:39 <nortti> http://conservapedia.com/Biblical_Scientific_Foreknowledge
20:09:56 <nortti> http://conservapedia.com/Feminist "often condemn the God-Given order of gender roles, as laid out in the Holy Bible" :D
20:11:04 <elliott> http://conservapedia.com/Essay:_Penn_Jillette%27s_walrus_slide_vs._thin_Indian_Christian_lady_dancers Nobody tell me what this article is about, I want to enjoy it solely based on the title.
20:12:00 <oklopol> holy shit these guys are retardedaiosdjfoasdjfoasdjfklasdjl;f
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20:12:44 <oklopol> Unlike atheists, Christians have a great many songs including dance music.
20:14:05 <oklopol> okay the walrus side article is perhaps the most insane thing i've ever seen.
20:17:14 <oklopol> seriously, that has to be a joke
20:19:11 <nortti> http://conservapedia.com/Global_warming
20:20:37 <rszeno> hm, http://conservapedia.com/Special:Statistics
20:22:03 <ais523> rszeno: does that have a conservative bias too?
20:22:36 <rszeno> i was thinking that at least are not so many, :)
20:23:32 <nortti> ais523: don't you know that there is no conservative bias. Jusl liberal lies and conservative truth!!!!!!111!!!!
20:24:15 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/b2wsEtbA
20:24:26 <mroman_> ^- Would that stand a chance being turing-complete?
20:24:30 <rszeno> remember me about comunist party from my country, small amount of people knowing everything, :)
20:27:22 <nortti> rszeno: whete do you live?
20:27:51 <rszeno> romania, :) is not communist anymore but it was
20:28:22 <rszeno> imo is no difference between fanatics
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20:28:55 <nortti> rszeno: I don't undesrtand your sentencw
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20:30:32 <rszeno> communist or religious like the ones from conservapedia.com when they are so sure they are right, is only fanatism
20:31:20 <nortti> rszeno: well actually romania has never been communist. It has only been "communist" (read: dictatorship)
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20:34:26 <fizzie> mroman_: It sounds like one-bit-cell brainfuck maps rather directly to the L, U, E, [, ], P, I instructions. (You'd stay in the leftmost branch all the time.)
20:34:38 <oklopol> mroman_: i don't see why it couldn't be possible
20:34:54 <fizzie> mroman_: Oh, I didn't read E properly. But anyway if you can flip from 1 to 0.
20:35:38 <oklopol> oh there was a loop instruction, i thought that was just a stub
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20:38:46 <ion> helliottaoeu
20:39:22 <oklopol> i will tell whatever i like whenever i like who is and isn't and when is and when is not someone asdf or not asdf.
20:40:44 <oklopol> seriously, dudde, take a fuck and U.
20:41:17 <mroman_> fizzie: You can flip depending on your location and the value under it, yes.
20:41:56 <ion> I’m too tired.
20:42:05 <ion> I’ve been awake for 22 hours.
20:42:18 <oklopol> i've been awake more than 13
20:42:24 -!- jix_ has joined.
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20:43:14 <oklopol> well that's good too, don't believe people if they call you an ass-dancing faggot because you've been awake only 6
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20:43:35 <oklopol> would be cool if your memory was just your location
20:43:44 <oklopol> so some kinda stack machine
20:43:46 <mroman_> by setting the left to 1 you can always flip the right.
20:43:55 <oklopol> then again this may be just due to my tree-walking automata fetish
20:44:06 <mroman_> Brainfucks > would probably be then R
20:45:39 <mroman_> LEEE to set up left to 1 and not flipping the right.
20:45:44 <mroman_> then E again to actually flip
20:45:45 <oklopol> a two-headed tree automaton can simulate a binary tape which i guess is kind of fun
20:46:40 <mroman_> so it is one-bit-brainfuck "compatible" yes :(
20:46:56 <mroman_> I don't like languages too easaly compatible to brainfuck variants.
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20:47:08 <mroman_> so back the drawing board :)
20:47:14 <mroman_> I want something with trees.
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20:49:14 <mroman_> oklopol: Location is memory. That means: The nodes contain no actually data?
20:49:33 <mroman_> My typo rate is awfully high tonight.
20:50:29 <oklopol> just a full infinite binary tree
20:50:43 <oklopol> a finite set of states and two heads
20:51:07 <oklopol> yeah, otherwise you just have a stack
20:52:01 <oklopol> yeah, which is as good as a tape (although way nicer to program for)
20:52:26 <mroman_> so, LRU (head 0) and lru (head 1)
20:52:43 <oklopol> then again it's enough to have two heads and a unary tree.
20:53:16 <mroman_> So it's just a comman tape.
20:53:42 <mroman_> "without data" fun is coming back.
20:53:43 <oklopol> so just http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_machine
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20:55:14 <oklopol> but if you have multiple heads on a dataless binary tree with only local interactions, you might get something fun
20:55:56 <oklopol> (my first two-head suggestion was the usual multiheaded automaton where you can read both heads at all times and change a global state based on that info)
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20:56:15 <oklopol> (here the local data is just whether you're in a left or a right child)
20:56:18 -!- pikhq has joined.
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20:57:20 <mroman_> If I have LRU and an H, which creates a new head at the root node.
20:57:21 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
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20:59:00 <mroman_> and some conditional instructions based on the location of the heads.
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20:59:46 <oklopol> yeah but then that's just a rather direct n-stacks thing
20:59:46 <mroman_> That might in fact be fun.
21:00:13 <ion> Too much Crawl? I interpreted “:c” someone said as “a book, a centaur”.
21:00:36 <oklopol> the heads should be running different programs, and only seeing each other when close enough
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21:08:41 <elliott> ais523: welcome to washington dc!
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21:17:40 <elliott> Gregor: I forget, did you have an opinion on the quote identifier issue?
21:18:34 <Gregor> Apr 28 11:12:28 <Gregor> " is the best identifier.
21:18:50 <elliott> ...not that kind of quote identifier.
21:21:40 <nortti> what kind of quote insentifier then?
21:22:03 <HackEgo> 552) <monqy> game where you flip a coin but it's really really big
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21:23:40 <tswett> ais523: happy 5:23 EDT.
21:23:49 <HackEgo> tswett: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:24:04 <ais523> tswett: heh, I get amused when I look at the clock and it's a numerically significant time (sometimes 5:23)
21:24:31 <elliott> ais523: Were you born at 05:23?
21:24:52 <ais523> can't remember, it was so long ago…
21:24:59 <ais523> don't think I could read then either
21:25:03 <elliott> So you *might* have been born at 05:23?
21:25:12 -!- variable has joined.
21:25:15 <tswett> I might have been born at 05:23.
21:25:21 <oerjan> ais523: you don't have a watch that says DIE every wednesday just after midnight, i assume
21:25:25 <tswett> I know it was early in the morning.
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21:26:00 <ais523> oerjan: I don't have a wristwatch at all, nor a functioning pocketwatch (and arguably not a nonfunctioning pocketwatch depending on your definition)
21:26:50 <oerjan> elliott: it's basically the first three letters of the weekday for the previous day, in german.
21:27:01 -!- cheater_ has joined.
21:27:08 <elliott> oerjan: wait, I recall you saying something like this before.
21:28:05 <oerjan> right now it says WED. in a few hours it will briefly say MIT.
21:30:05 <oerjan> the brand is lorus, fwiw.
21:31:04 <elliott> So why does it show those, exactly?
21:32:36 <oerjan> presumably it has both english and german weekday markings, and every day after midnight it briefly passes over the language you haven't adjusted it for
21:33:35 <oerjan> as it rotates the ring with the markings
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21:38:53 <ais523> oerjan: are you two hours east of me, then?
21:39:07 <ais523> or are you just anticipating it to happen at the end of tohour?
21:39:35 <oerjan> anticipating, and it's not _exactly_ at midnight.
21:39:54 <oerjan> and by "briefly", i mean possibly a couple of hours.
21:40:10 <lambdabot> Local time for ais523 is Wed May 9 22:40:10 2012
21:40:11 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Wed May 9 23:40:11 2012
21:40:23 <ais523> I was assuming one too
21:40:24 <oerjan> i see the date number has already started changing
21:40:53 <oerjan> i think that depends on the clock, elliott
21:41:49 <oerjan> presumably it has a quartz crystal or something, but then translates that into mechanical movement.
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21:43:32 <ais523> well, digital clocks work the same way computers do
21:43:38 <ais523> completely mechanical clocks use gears
21:43:50 <ais523> but I imagine they're commonly somewhere in between nowadays
21:44:52 <oerjan> it has a battery, at least.
21:45:42 <elliott> i was assuming it was clockwork for some reason
21:45:44 <ais523> hmm, do wrist-sundials actually exist?
21:45:54 <elliott> can you get clockwork watches
21:46:09 <ais523> elliott: yes, they exist, although I'm not sure how popular they are nowadays
21:46:14 <ais523> you have to wind them up every now and then
21:46:17 <elliott> googling just turns up some stupid steampunk crap
21:46:23 <elliott> ones that go on your wrist
21:46:57 <ais523> all watches were like that once
21:47:00 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Wrist_Watch_WWI.jpg wow way to make it fucking impossible to read with a metal thing
21:47:02 <ais523> they're not so popular nowadays, though
21:47:22 <elliott> ais523: YES THANK YOU FOR THE HISTORY LESSON but pocket watches were what used to be popular aiui
21:47:39 <elliott> and i didn't know if anyone made wristwatches before we figured out how to power them with fire
21:47:44 <ais523> elliott: within my lifetime once
21:47:49 <ais523> not entirely sure if within yours
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21:48:09 <ais523> "all watches were like that once"
21:48:12 <ais523> well, maybe not /all/ of them
21:48:17 <ais523> but they were still pretty common when I was young
21:48:59 <ais523> elliott: luckily there are some older people around
21:49:20 <ais523> 40 years ago is the right timeframe for mechanical wristwatches dominating, it seems
21:49:50 <elliott> "Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-two million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea."
21:52:24 <elliott> not as old as oerjan though
21:52:42 <ais523> the watches probably weren't available when I was young, come to think of it
21:52:57 <ais523> but 40-year-old watches were pretty expensive when new, and also pretty durable
21:53:00 <ais523> so there are some around
21:53:09 <ais523> and purely mechanical watches, isn't that what this discussion is about?
21:53:41 * oerjan vaguely recalls having hand-cranked watches at one time
21:54:02 <rszeno> i have a pocket watch and few wirst watches, all mechanical
21:54:48 <rszeno> to be honest i dislike all this digital stuff, :)
21:54:51 <elliott> pls tell me you use a mechanical typewriter w/ your computer too
21:56:04 <ais523> I've seen mechanical typewriters, but never used one
21:56:11 * oerjan had a mechanical typewriter once
21:56:24 <ais523> I've used a mostly mechanical typewriter that had some electronics in, you typed a line at a time then it printed it out
21:56:32 <rszeno> i start programing with this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_card, :)
21:56:36 <ais523> sort-of like typewriter keyboard -> microcontroller -> daisywheel printer
21:56:43 <nortti> http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/freedom.jpg
21:56:54 <ais523> rszeno: my parents were programming on punch cards when I was very young, they gave me some (unpunched) ones to play with
21:57:08 <elliott> If only Babbage had built the Analytical Engine, then rszeno's dream would have been realised.
21:57:39 <elliott> ais523: You... played with punchcards?
21:57:42 <elliott> They're not very exciting.
21:57:56 <ais523> I used to post them through chairs, apparently
21:58:09 <ais523> very young children are amused by things like that, apparently even if they're me
21:59:14 <ais523> elliott: that comment you just made /also/ explains a lot and I'm not sure what
21:59:29 <ais523> hm, you hate past-elliott, right?
21:59:50 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client Sucks @$$( http://www.androirc.com )).
22:00:13 <elliott> He's not nearly as bad as present coppro.
22:00:55 <ais523> I don't really hate past-ais523
22:00:58 <ais523> they were pretty naive
22:01:08 <ais523> but not really hateable
22:01:37 <elliott> coppro: If you become President, I'm leaving America forever.
22:03:23 <elliott> coppro: By the way, please make Agora not boring.
22:04:09 <elliott> You may enlist ais523 for help.
22:04:31 <ais523> elliott: but you aren't in America?
22:04:40 <ais523> you'd have to go there first in order to leave it again
22:04:44 <coppro> ais523: he'll go to America just so that he can... yeah
22:04:45 * ais523 refuses to travel to the US
22:05:04 <coppro> ais523: he can even do it in style and get deported
22:05:15 <coppro> purpose of trip: "deportation"
22:05:19 <ais523> actually, I dislike international travel a lot, it seems so heavily unnecessary
22:05:27 <ais523> abroad is depressingly similar to nearby
22:05:28 <coppro> ais523: by which you mean overseas?
22:05:35 <coppro> or all international travel?
22:05:40 <ais523> coppro: I live on an island, there's no distinction
22:06:01 <coppro> do you include Europe?
22:06:11 <ais523> I include everywhere non-UK
22:06:18 <ais523> dislike travelling much even within the UK
22:06:38 <ais523> I'm happier if I'm within walking distance of home (that is, I /could/ walk it, not necessarily that I actually /do/)
22:06:39 <coppro> travelling is sometimes needed for colocation
22:06:47 <ais523> what do you mean by colocation, here?
22:06:57 <coppro> being in the same place as someone else
22:07:08 <ais523> isn't that what the Internet's for?
22:08:58 <coppro> there's a reason conferences generally haven't gone digital
22:09:42 <ais523> I haven't found it yet
22:09:53 <ais523> going off to Canada for a conference disrupted my life for several weeks
22:09:53 <coppro> for starters, you can't chat over dinner
22:10:05 <coppro> overseas is nasty due to the really large travel time
22:10:20 <ais523> I couldn't chat there over dinner either, almost bankrupted by the first one
22:10:27 <ais523> and then spent most of my mealtimes eating at Subway
22:10:53 <ais523> I was too moral to claim it on expenses because I would have needed to eat anyway
22:11:56 <ais523> academic expenses are pretty much all a scam, apart from travel (and accommodation if that's necessary, e.g. when going abroad)
22:15:02 <coppro> yeah, but the standard is that you get to claim them
22:15:39 <coppro> yet as a general rule, eating out isn't that much more costly than cooking yourself if you factor the time in
22:16:25 <ais523> well, I eat "out" at lunch pretty much every day, although it's typically university canteen or supermarket ready meal
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22:21:36 <elliott> ais523: I assign you to cleaning up [[list of ideas]]
22:21:48 <ais523> elliott: I assign zzo38 to cleaning it up
22:23:46 <Sgeo> I'm tempted to ask for advice on what Star Trek episode me and my gf should watch
22:23:55 <Sgeo> (Not enough details in prior statement for actual advice)
22:26:31 <elliott> ais523: hi, welcome to Asia
22:26:58 <ais523> Sgeo: there are a few really really infamous ones
22:27:37 <Sgeo> Well, full details: She loves the Stargate franchise, but I don't think has seen any Star Trek, so what would appeal to her
22:27:50 <Sgeo> Although we're probably going to watch some SG-1 now
22:28:42 <ais523> wait, Sgeo has an actual girlfriend now?
22:29:35 <ais523> same person you were alluding to before, or someone else?
22:30:17 <Sgeo> When was the alluding?
22:31:13 <elliott> I think it was "alluded-to".
22:31:16 <Sgeo> If it was earlier ago than March, no
22:31:31 <ais523> `pastlog Sgeo.*alluded to
22:31:44 <oerjan> i think it was years ago
22:31:47 <HackEgo> 2010-12-21.txt:21:58:59: <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I assume he assumed it was Alluded To Female.
22:32:05 <ais523> Sgeo: it was already a meme in december 2010, apparently
22:32:44 <elliott> ais523: how is to create javascript in xml???
22:33:05 <ais523> elliott: use a JS to XSLT compiler, I guess
22:34:30 <elliott> ais523: how to enable PHP with ajax and compiling
22:35:37 <ais523> bleh, can't think of a good and sufficiently facetious answer
22:36:08 <elliott> ais523: how to develop facebook with visual studio node.js
22:36:27 <ais523> elliott: first you need to go work at facebook
22:37:07 <ais523> they have competitions every now and then, facebook hacker cup
22:37:11 <ais523> you can search for it on bing
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22:50:53 <Sgeo> how to ask how to
22:51:01 <Sgeo> Oh, elliott already made that joke
23:00:07 -!- davidwerecat has quit (Quit: Quitting...).
23:02:19 <elliott> davidwerecat =/= david_werecat
23:15:20 <elliott> the wiki is nothing like #esoteric
23:16:27 <david_werecat> judging by the logs, looks a lot more social in here
23:17:39 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:18:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:19:44 <elliott> the logs are all fabricated by Gregor
23:21:43 -!- david_werecat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:22:08 -!- david_werecat has joined.
23:26:34 <Gregor> It's a lot of work fabricating all those logs, but it helps me practice for my erotic fan fictions.
23:26:57 <elliott> Your erotic fan fictions read like IRC logs?
23:27:39 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:28:53 <david_werecat> if erotic fan fiction can be written like IRC, then I might still have some hope...
23:29:28 <elliott> Everyone knows the money is in erotic fan fiction.
23:29:43 <elliott> Gregor: P.S. "fictions" reads so awkwardly.
23:29:51 <elliott> Interestingly "fanfics" doesn't.
23:31:55 -!- rszeno has left.
23:33:14 <elliott> I defer to Gregor. He's the expert.
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23:34:50 <Gregor> He sat, nonchalantly, one finger running unthinkingly but tantalizingly up and down his strong, toned thigh. It wasn't unusual for oklopol to be here, waiting for elliott's arrival, but something was different today. oklopol was not typically nude.
23:35:26 <elliott> i think that line is probably illegal in several countries
23:36:33 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:38:09 <zzo38> Does someone stolen your clothing?
23:38:28 <elliott> monqy: i knew you'd be really sad if you didn't get updated on all the best #esoteric
23:39:16 <zzo38> Do you think this is a correct way? getBlocks n = sortBy (on antispecificness fst) . (>>= \(Declaration x y z) -> (y, z) <$ guard (n == x));
23:40:09 <monqy> im nothing but a jerk's ghost
23:40:28 <zzo38> monqy: How can you type on computer while dead, then?
23:41:32 <zzo38> Is it a crime for dead people to act as if still alive?
23:42:20 <monqy> yes im in ghost jail
23:42:42 <elliott> monqy: you missed a great tv
23:43:01 <elliott> someone tried to escape purgy by running up from D:4 and exiting the dungeon
23:43:14 <elliott> but they died on the upstairs leading out of the dungeon
23:43:37 <monqy> same outcome, really
23:43:43 <zzo38> Are some of the stairs broken?
23:44:08 <monqy> in ancient crawl you got more points for exiting alive but nowadays it's the same as any other death
23:44:19 <elliott> monqy: also someone else committed very slow suicide to a killer bee larva!
23:45:19 <monqy> 16:44:19 < CIA-97> elliptic * rfea3bfef4d52 /crawl-ref/source/aptitudes.h: Improve felid UC and Fighting apts.
23:45:25 <monqy> felids "un nefred"
23:45:46 <elliott> monqy: the joke is that elliptic is playing a felid right now
23:46:28 <monqy> 16:46:17 < CIA-97> kilobyte * rabd22f24f12b /crawl-ref/source/aptitudes.h: Nerf felid Summ aptitude: +1 -> 0
23:46:32 <monqy> felids "re nerfreD"
23:46:35 <elliott> i was just about to quote that
23:47:07 <elliott> by tomorrow felids will have a completely different set of aptitudes but be no better or worse
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23:51:49 <elliott> 00:51 <xnmojo> anyone have thoughts on my jackal sprites? http://i.imgur.com/xxKOi.png
23:52:16 <monqy> which are old and which are new help
23:52:30 <elliott> you also missed: that guy defending tiles!
23:53:07 <monqy> im not even going to pay attention
23:53:15 <monqy> tiles arguments are awful
23:53:29 <elliott> it didn't even become an argument everyone just snickered
00:02:48 <elliott> "Getting element out of IO in Haskell" cries
00:07:41 <monqy> but im already dead!
00:08:03 <elliott> rip rip: the double rip (twice)
00:25:24 <elliott> monqy: you may enjoy this tv
00:26:29 <elliott> naga of chei "always amusing"
00:26:33 <elliott> im just waiting for the monster moat
00:28:12 <elliott> `addqoute <monqy> was that chaos spawn para or just chei
00:28:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: addqoute: not found
00:28:18 -!- shachaf_ has changed nick to shachaf.
00:28:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: qoute: not found
00:29:00 <elliott> that should go in the chei learndb entry "monqy wisdom for all"
00:29:24 <monqy> do you know how to use henzells learndb
00:29:40 <elliott> i see people do it every now and then and im like
00:29:56 <monqy> !learn add entryname entrytext
00:30:09 <elliott> oh im not going to add things im just going to tell other people to
00:30:48 <elliott> oh, it doesn't listen in /msg
00:30:56 <monqy> it listens to queries but
00:31:03 <monqy> or anything like that
00:31:14 <elliott> i know it listens to queries but
00:31:33 <elliott> well i guess ##crawl-dev is the next best thing to private "laughs"
00:31:39 <elliott> theyre kind of official arent they
00:32:48 <elliott> monqy's wisdom will die with him
00:33:13 <monqy> you can add it if you want!!!
00:33:26 <elliott> hell no!!!! i never "do" anyhting
00:33:29 <monqy> or you can coerce shachaf or Sgeo into adding it
00:33:58 <monqy> itidus to join and add it
00:36:02 <elliott> im sorry monqy but your wisdom just
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00:39:57 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Wed May 9 17:39:56 2012
00:47:59 <elliott> monqy: ##crawl dissed heavy armour on ghoule earlier :'(
00:48:31 <elliott> (by ##crawl i mean one person in ##crawl iirc)
00:48:44 <monqy> heavy armour ghoule was fine ime
00:49:01 <monqy> ie i tried heavy armour ghoule and i won it
00:49:02 <elliott> monqy: they were all "you [not me -Ed] know how you die really quick in melee?? thats because the heavy armour makes your uc rly slowe!!!"
00:49:15 <elliott> and the ghoule was like ok im robe
00:49:37 <monqy> it makes your uc slower but idk how slow it is
00:51:11 <elliott> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5545 oh no
00:57:29 <elliott> it's like i'm playing monqys-craw
00:57:31 <elliott> it's like i'm playing monqys-crawl
00:57:46 <monqy> are you going to robe this time
00:58:06 <elliott> maybe i could go medium armour???
00:58:15 <monqy> i just did heavey armour and no spelles on my ghoul win and it worked well
00:58:46 <monqy> ask ##crawl for advic they're probably better on this fieeld than me
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01:00:41 <elliott> leather armour > robe right
01:01:03 <monqy> as far as ac goes yes
01:02:25 <elliott> *Jessica, *are you *trying?
01:03:13 <elliott> _j - a scroll labeled DOALID SOREAR
01:03:45 <elliott> monqy: oh no i found plate
01:04:28 <monqy> ps do you know what you mean by medium armour
01:05:00 <elliott> what i primarily remember is: there is not much light armour but there is: some medium armour
01:05:03 <monqy> you're probably aiming for like dragon armour
01:05:29 <elliott> maybe ill just go heavy armour
01:05:39 <monqy> you'l want to train dodg too if you're meddiu
01:05:53 <monqy> less reason to train dodg in heavy
01:05:54 <elliott> whats the medium progression
01:06:12 <monqy> there's a bunch of crap meddius
01:06:13 <HackEgo> 2012-05-02.txt:03:29:56: <monqy> oh, medium armoures
01:06:25 <HackEgo> 2012-05-02.txt:03:29:56: <monqy> oh, medium armoures
01:06:34 <monqy> the common mediuem armoures are crepe
01:06:36 <HackEgo> 2012-05-02.txt:03:29:56: <monqy> oh, medium armoures
01:06:42 <monqy> or at least, pretty crepey
01:06:50 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/2012-05-02
01:06:56 <monqy> "you'll want dragon armoures"
01:07:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-05-02
01:07:20 <elliott> 03:29:33: <monqy> "robe -> spells -> thanks for going light armoures"
01:07:22 <monqy> you could use the crepe medium armoures in between now and dragon
01:07:25 <elliott> oh you didn't actually tell me the medium armour progresion
01:07:42 <elliott> ring and plate right here!! so easy and comfortable
01:07:53 <monqy> ask ##crawl i;v only done like 1 heavy and 1 medium ever
01:08:23 <monqy> most of my games where back when medium/heavy was a joke so i did mostly robes
01:08:36 <monqy> also by ever i mean that's what i won
01:08:56 <elliott> i have no idea how to not die without lots of nice armour protection
01:09:06 <monqy> robe of resistance or an artefact robe that's better than ror is your target
01:09:10 <monqy> robe of rF if that fails
01:09:26 <elliott> but how do you avoid dying :(
01:10:10 <elliott> note to self "theres plate on this level"
01:10:21 <elliott> monqy: my main HEAVY PROBLEM is that i die before i get to train any armour skille
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01:10:37 <monqy> then train armour!!!
01:11:16 <monqy> you shouldn;t have charged into that situation
01:11:54 <elliott> wasn't expecting not to die there
01:12:29 <monqy> also if you have troubkle with ghmo: try something els???
01:12:40 <elliott> everything else has stupid hunger mechanics
01:13:07 <elliott> the only feasible gh not-mo would be ghak wouldn't it
01:13:45 <monqy> spriganes are herbivor so that means no chopeing up corpses or eacting chunsk at least
01:14:00 <monqy> but they have low hp and are spellcastey
01:14:08 <monqy> are you going light
01:14:09 <elliott> bceause if its just the former maybe ill go light armour
01:14:27 <monqy> you should be smarter about running away
01:14:49 <elliott> should i put on this robe or this leather armour
01:16:18 <elliott> i forget if stealth is worth anything
01:17:09 <elliott> one last question you wont answer!!!
01:17:21 <monqy> who is this robe person
01:17:29 <monqy> i think i already talked about shields+uc
01:17:37 <elliott> i forget what you talked about them in
01:17:46 <elliott> in? idk what i was trying to say there
01:18:01 <monqy> basically they block your off-hand attack but uc is still really powerful with them and plus you get defense but usually i don't bother but other people do bother
01:18:10 <monqy> i don't really have so much of an opinion there
01:18:34 <monqy> where i do have an opinion is on using a shield that blocks you from using a big good weapon but you're uc so your weapon is good even with a shield
01:18:45 <monqy> (unless this all was nerfed")
01:18:47 <elliott> does it matter how big the shield is
01:19:09 <elliott> whatever the shields i normalyl use are called
01:20:09 <monqy> larger shields have bigger penalties but also bigger rewards
01:20:42 <elliott> oh do i need to train shields or sth before i can wear something that big
01:22:33 <elliott> totally regretting light armour right now!!!
01:23:43 <monqy> shields don't boost your ac
01:23:45 <monqy> they boost your sh
01:25:17 <monqy> sh is more like ev in that it completely blocks some attacks sometimes
01:25:25 <elliott> eeeh that's a pretty bad EV penalty!!! but that's a high SH (or is it)
01:25:26 <monqy> rather than reduces damage from attacks
01:25:41 <monqy> elliott: well yeah you need a lot of sh to negate the penalties of a large shields
01:25:47 <monqy> elliott: there's a learndb entr about iy
01:26:06 <elliott> then come back to it later
01:28:37 <elliott> much easier when im not wearing armour
01:28:55 <elliott> come on sigmund you can do better than that robe
01:30:59 <elliott> "the downsides to not much AC"
01:34:47 <elliott> monqy: do you wear cloaks with robes i forgete :(
01:35:26 <monqy> cloaks go on top of body armoures (robe is body armoures)
01:36:38 <elliott> -- guy who talks in upper case a lot
01:37:09 <monqy> why arent you worshop che
01:37:27 <elliott> that being a cool chei pal requires
01:37:40 <elliott> also by "chei" i mean "makhleb"
01:39:04 <elliott> Crazy Yiuf yells, "Key! Dawk disdain shoe."
01:39:04 <elliott> Crazy Yiuf hits you with a quarterstaff of chaos!
01:39:04 <elliott> * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
01:39:05 <elliott> You fade into invisibility!
01:39:29 <elliott> maybe ill run to upstairs wiht invisibility power
01:39:52 <monqy> "both could either survive you or get you kield"
01:40:41 <elliott> how did he know where i was going!!!
01:41:31 <monqy> that's how invisiblity in crawl works
01:41:48 <elliott> my roguelike's design prevents that completely
01:41:59 <monqy> my roguelikes deign dosnt have invnisisbiilbity
01:42:05 <monqy> bc invisbibislibty sucks
01:42:32 <elliott> "everything sucks" -- monqy
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01:44:30 <elliott> what's wrong with invis though i don't really find it very offensive
01:44:56 <monqy> its offensive ofr reasons i cant explain waell
01:47:32 <shachaf> elliott: You'd better butterflee!
01:54:18 <monqy> calmly walk away if you can't handle it
01:54:36 <monqy> if you think you might be able to handle it, get to a staircase
01:54:40 <monqy> you can go up the staircas
01:55:04 <monqy> don't bother with that ghost
01:55:08 <monqy> it;s too strong for you
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01:55:25 <elliott> i love it when its on thes taircas
01:55:31 <elliott> (i dont get the joke help)
01:55:39 <monqy> you had to hatch down
01:55:41 <elliott> perfectly level layout for a ghost that's too strong for me
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01:57:30 <elliott> yellow wasps are scary aernt they
01:57:47 <monqy> htere's a stairs up right there
01:57:52 <monqy> szobmies dont take stirs
01:57:57 <elliott> 02:57 <Henzell> yellow wasp[1/1]: Terrifying monster that poisons, slows, and paralyzes you. Rendered mostly impotent by poison resistance, otherwise quite deadly. A good target for wands of polymorph, if you lack rPois.
01:58:21 <monqy> bettter than dying to that yellow wasp zom,bie\
01:58:39 <monqy> oh the staircase takes your ight there
01:58:53 <monqy> shaft down or smth idk
01:59:02 <monqy> or go up then shaft down and hope you drop 2 levels
01:59:12 <elliott> being that im completely surrounded
01:59:27 <monqy> or hack yr way out and hw
01:59:55 <elliott> gj not having any scrolls of identify
02:00:08 <elliott> quaff either the lumpy pink or viscous blue i guess
02:00:57 <elliott> rip elliott "too magic for this world"
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02:03:08 <elliott> monqy: does your roguelike have ghost
02:03:27 <monqy> i ahvent thought about ghost yet
02:03:45 <elliott> i like ghost theyer unfair but fu
02:07:15 <elliott> monqy: does your roguelike have walruses
02:07:18 <quintopia> monqy: does your roguelike have area-effect spells?
02:07:31 <quintopia> monqy: does your roguelike have spells that can DESTROY WALLS
02:07:54 <monqy> undecided, likely? depemds omn waht you mean by aoe, undecided, respectivel
02:09:21 <quintopia> i mean spells that attach to a particular location, and taper off in strength from it quadratically in L1 distance :D
02:11:32 <monqy> L1 distance? is that manhattan or waht
02:11:38 <monqy> elliott: area of effect, k
02:12:13 <monqy> i m used to different nams for them
02:12:19 <monqy> but the 1 is still there
02:12:56 <monqy> quintopia: it'd only be l1 if the rest of the gam was in l1
02:13:04 <elliott> i have a horrible secret its that i actually kind of like crawls euclidean spellcasting/throwiwng
02:13:15 <monqy> quintopia: im undecided between l1 and l\infty
02:13:19 <elliott> it feels weird that someone could completely avoid yr ranged attacks just by standing like one square down
02:13:19 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
02:13:22 <elliott> from a diagonal or whatever
02:13:33 <quintopia> monqy: understandable. squares or diamonds. it's hard to say.
02:14:08 <monqy> quintopia: im more concerned about the gameplay effects
02:14:58 <monqy> and los is unbounded so you wouldn't see squares vs diamomds but the way im doing light bending around walls dpends on which distance i use so there would be a bit of aesthetics but i wouldnt worry about it
02:15:06 <monqy> elliott: what about it do eoyu like
02:15:16 <elliott> 03:13 <elliott> it feels weird that someone could completely avoid yr ranged attacks just by standing like one square down
02:15:19 <elliott> 03:13 <elliott> from a diagonal or whatever
02:15:40 <elliott> the likelihood of a monster yr fighting actually being in the tiles that can get you / be got by you if you just use chebyshev is
02:15:41 <monqy> "completely avoid yr ranged attacks just by standing like one square down" is fixed by square los
02:16:00 <elliott> up down left right nw se ne
02:16:09 <monqy> thats not brogue style
02:16:14 <monqy> brogue has targeting like crawl
02:16:20 <elliott> im not thinking of throwing
02:16:23 <elliott> i forget what im thinking of
02:16:27 <monqy> you're brogueing wrong
02:16:28 <elliott> something in brogue that's just like that
02:16:46 <monqy> it's not staffs either!!
02:17:18 <monqy> and in my game it wouldnt be just hjklyubn targeting
02:17:22 <monqy> targeting is undecided
02:17:34 <elliott> isn't crawl's thing technically
02:18:04 <monqy> it resistricts what "movements" such as to approximate euclidean looks
02:18:34 <monqy> so id say it's crawsl good ol inconsistent quasieuclidean or w/e
02:18:46 <elliott> ehhh what could you do with chebyshev that you couldnt with
02:19:39 <monqy> with square los the difference is that los and ranges are square so you dont have like 2 monsters the same movement-distance from you that you can target one but not the other
02:19:55 <monqy> but in square los you still have the quasieuclidean targeting lightbending etc
02:20:40 <monqy> i just dont like euclidean approximations they feel awkward to me
02:20:51 <monqy> with crawl i dont think you can get better than square los
02:20:53 <elliott> how the targeting would change
02:20:54 <monqy> without breaking everything
02:20:57 <elliott> (not in your roguelike necessarily)
02:21:04 <elliott> (when moving to true chebyshev)
02:21:07 <monqy> "multiple possibilities"
02:21:13 <elliott> what are the possibilitlitielils ;_;
02:21:31 <monqy> simplest posisiblity is "no targeting"
02:21:43 <elliott> you can target any square in los and it picks the shortest path to that (ignoring obstacles)
02:21:51 <elliott> shortest path chebyshev-wise
02:21:54 <elliott> if the shortest path crosses any obstacles then
02:22:05 <monqy> "the shortest path"
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02:22:11 <elliott> i don't know what i mean :(
02:22:16 <monqy> there are generally multiple minimal paths
02:22:21 <monqy> which is the whole complication
02:22:36 <elliott> pick the one that doesn't bash into anything (don't do this or they'll end up curving around walls and things)
02:23:26 <monqy> well light would work the same way the way i want to do it in chebshev
02:23:34 <monqy> so if u dont want that "go manhaten"
02:23:44 <monqy> but: targeting undecided etcetcetc
02:23:53 <elliott> how do you want your light to work then
02:24:32 <monqy> any square to which there exists a minimal path unblocked by walls is illuminated
02:24:45 <monqy> so chebshev is much brighter than manhattan
02:24:52 <monqy> lots of weird bending too
02:24:57 <monqy> which can be good orb ad
02:25:04 <elliott> any square to which all minimal paths are unblocked by walls is illuminate
02:25:11 <monqy> that could work too
02:25:11 <elliott> *-that whole line with just the d
02:25:33 <monqy> and the targeting scheme would then work the same as light
02:25:48 <elliott> "build a targeting prototype"
02:25:56 <elliott> monqy: but i'm curious as to why you're adding light
02:26:14 <monqy> i mean los/fov/whatever yeah
02:26:23 <elliott> carrying lanterns around and shit
02:27:05 <monqy> since i don't want like total blindness or transparent walls or anything like that
02:27:17 <elliott> total blindness: "a good roguelike setting"
02:41:28 <elliott> im sorry to report that monqy has died of indecision
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02:42:06 <shachaf> is indecision a kind of bad surgery
02:46:35 <monqy> the worst kind of bad surgery
02:46:50 <shachaf> monqy: are you deade now :'(
02:46:55 <monqy> i was already dead
02:47:37 <shachaf> "hi my name is monqy and im alive"
02:47:53 <monqy> i'm not so sure about that!
02:47:59 <elliott> i think monqy is thrice dead now
02:48:01 <monqy> my name might be something else now, after all
02:48:57 <monqy> that's a bit more dead than i'm comnfortable with
02:49:23 <shachaf> monqy: dead people are rarely comfortabl'e :'(
02:52:01 <shachaf> monqy: would you like to be resurrected
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03:14:14 <quintopia> monqy: i wish i could help you wif roguelike
03:32:53 <quintopia> apparently pressing all the ghost keys at once does not produce ghost
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03:35:49 <ellipticiott> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/132037/how-to-save-text-input-using-xml
03:35:49 <quintopia> there is a song about monqy playing
03:35:54 <HackEgo> JeroGreen: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:35:58 <quintopia> who shot the monqy monqy mmonqy monqy monqy
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03:37:51 <shachaf> does 'm' stand for 'monqy'
03:38:13 <monqy> pretty sure it stands for 'm'
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04:07:11 <monqy> mayb you can "take" him. mayb not
04:07:37 <fizzie> You can "take him to dinner".
04:10:04 <Patashu> grinder can't paralyze you IF HE'S DEAD
04:10:25 <ellipticiott> consisting of clawing him until he stopped being alive
04:11:50 <ellipticiott> _You finish putting on the +0 leather armour of Free Expression {SInv}.
04:13:18 <Patashu> don't ghouls have rC naturally
04:13:40 <monqy> one less rC and one less AC and one less EV probably too but hey sinv
04:14:12 <monqy> you cant enchant artefacts, ellipticiott
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04:16:05 <ellipticiott> you can't do that to me crawl im going light armour
04:16:20 <ellipticiott> Patashu: (is light armour better than heavy on ghmo im suffering from indecision)
04:16:43 <Patashu> go light if you want to cast spells and train dodging
04:16:51 <Patashu> go heavy if fuck spells, you just want to tab things
04:17:14 <Patashu> you shouldn't ever use light armour for any reason
04:17:18 <Patashu> since light armour is for being able to cast spells in
04:17:22 <Patashu> also, don't fight crazy yiuf
04:17:25 <Patashu> he can randomly paralyze you
04:18:14 <ellipticiott> Patashu: anyway the reasons i was going light was
04:18:29 <ellipticiott> - heavy makes the unarmed combat a bit worse apparently??? and
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04:20:53 <ellipticiott> are those bad reasons.... if yes should i do spells maybe (im scared)
04:22:05 <Patashu> if you find the right books
04:22:22 <Patashu> good spells: summon butterflies, repel missiles, blink, contel teleport, animate skeleton...
04:22:58 <monqy> like if ellipticiott wants +Curse gloves?
04:22:58 <Patashu> since you were going to butcher it anyway
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04:23:05 <Patashu> now you have an army of skeletons that can tank shit for you
04:23:10 <Patashu> whenever you can't for $reason
04:23:27 <monqy> oh people actually use the skeletons?
04:23:27 <Patashu> I was doing snake:5 and my naga skeletons killed most of the rune vault for me when I ran lmao
04:23:33 <Patashu> they're not as bad as you think
04:23:37 <Patashu> they're about as strong as the original monster was
04:23:54 <monqy> it's been a while since i've used that sort of stuff
04:24:04 <Patashu> animate dead is even better but it doesn't leave chunks
04:24:09 <ellipticiott> what does becoming transparent for a moment mean
04:24:26 <monqy> i kind of like simulacrum
04:24:29 <Patashu> you can evoke it for invisibility
04:24:29 <monqy> has it been nerfed?
04:24:35 <Patashu> I've never tried simulacrum
04:24:39 <Patashu> but simulacrums should be pretty powerful
04:24:43 <Patashu> since they do ac-piercing cold
04:24:58 <monqy> if you get hydra chunks, you can make like a billion hydra simulacra, each with a ton of attacks which do a bunch of cold damage
04:25:02 <Patashu> you can evoke it for invisibility
04:25:09 <monqy> i have to leave for a while but
04:25:19 <ellipticiott> ok Patashu i literally have two light armours and theres plate armour and stuff
04:25:30 <monqy> do you want spelles
04:25:34 <ellipticiott> easier to kill with light stuff having tried it for a few (short) games
04:25:37 <Patashu> if all you're doing is training UC, atm
04:25:42 <Patashu> you don't have to make a decision on heavy vs light until later
04:25:45 <Patashu> based on what books you find
04:26:09 <ellipticiott> maybe ill just learn a few spelles or something ;_;
04:26:38 <Patashu> go heavy if you find no useful low level spells, light if you do
04:26:41 <Patashu> decide sometime mid lair I guess
04:28:02 <HackEgo> 585) <Patashu> dangit I need someone who knows the answers to my problems instantly and is always around for me! <Patashu> I need.....an adult ;_;
04:28:10 <Patashu> but actually the reason why is
04:28:16 <Patashu> I haven't gotten any unarmed fighters very far
04:28:25 <ellipticiott> can you decide between these two light armours at least
04:28:40 <Patashu> get your armour skill to like 1
04:28:46 <Patashu> that pretty much gets rid of the penalties of using it
04:29:42 <Patashu> gdr probably won't even show up, then
04:30:31 <ellipticiott> how much would i have to train armour to get that up meaningfully anyway i guess i could train it a little bit
04:32:39 <Patashu> the dungeon is dangerous this deep
04:32:58 <Patashu> why aren't yougoing up stairs
04:33:26 <Patashu> a centaur and a giant eyeball
04:34:26 <Patashu> sometimes going down shafts really blows though
04:34:33 <Patashu> like if you fall through a shaft and land on a cross level
04:34:36 <Patashu> seriously FUCK cross levels
04:34:54 <Patashu> and it has monqys-crawl level monster densities
04:35:00 <Patashu> for no good reason except because the level is so small
04:35:09 <ellipticiott> i deal with monqys-crawl-level monster densities all the time in monqys-crawl
04:35:21 <Patashu> in normal crawl you're not
04:35:42 <ellipticiott> You can now hurl Makhleb's greater destruction.
04:36:12 <ellipticiott> 05:30 <ellipticiott> how much would i have to train armour to get that up meaningfully anyway i guess i could train it a little bit
04:36:34 <Patashu> armour skill raises AC slowly unless you have high base AC
04:36:40 <Patashu> it laso reduces the penalty of wearing armour
04:36:54 <ellipticiott> is this +2 leather armour better than my +2 robe of rC ;_;
04:37:24 <Patashu> depends on what you're fighting
04:40:21 <Patashu> now just don't go up that staircase ever
04:40:24 <Patashu> and don't wake that snake up either
04:44:16 <Patashu> btw throwing nets are useful
04:44:20 <Patashu> you can't net very large things but
04:44:31 <Patashu> a net that covers its opponent is guaranteed to keep it covered for a certain number of turns, I think 4
04:44:44 <ellipticiott> i wasn't sure if the learndb was being sarcastic about throwing nets
04:44:48 <ellipticiott> 05:44 <Henzell> throwing net[1/6]: The single most deadly weapon in existence. Yes, it's even more deadly than a sceptre of torment as a ghoul fighter. One hit could kill a well to do character. Ask Nexos. In addition to the utter annihilation of its target, it may (depending on a few factors) also cause them to become immobilized for a little while.
04:45:04 <Patashu> don't nets make it impossible to attack for the duration of being under the net
04:45:09 <Patashu> or something ridiculous like that
04:45:24 <Patashu> you might not be one shotted by hydras
04:51:59 <monqy> how much invo do you have
04:52:19 <monqy> well it's summoned so
04:52:22 <monqy> probably timed out by now
04:52:36 <monqy> not durably summoned like 1s from zot traps
04:53:55 <ellipticiott> wow two robes of cold resistance i mean really
04:54:28 <monqy> are you going spelles
04:54:40 <ellipticiott> haven't decided yet Patashu said to decide heavy vs. light based on what books i find
04:54:58 <ellipticiott> stuff to make my primary job of bashing things until they stop living easier
04:58:51 <monqy> boring betls are slow
04:59:47 <ellipticiott> how much HP does a wand of heal wounds give you
05:00:01 <ellipticiott> 05:59 <Henzell> wand of heal wounds[1/1]: Exactly like a potion of heal wounds, except you can recharge it, it's lightweight and it won't be destroyed by cold attacks. Its healing is not based at all on evocation skill. Deep Dwarves start with one that has five charges. It's cool!
05:01:23 <monqy> boulder beetles are actually kind of interesting now
05:01:26 <monqy> since they charge at oyu
05:01:30 <monqy> i've never played vs one but
05:01:58 -!- augur has joined.
05:02:08 <ellipticiott> 06:02 <Henzell> grum[1/1]: Unique gnoll. Breeds war dogs. Will eat you! So will dogs! Wears the skin of a deceased war dog. Aw!
05:02:20 <ellipticiott> 06:02 <Gretell> gnoll (g) | Spd: 10 | Int: normal (items) | HD: 2 | HP: 8-18 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Dam: 9 | Res: magic(8) | Chunks: contam | XP: 14.
05:02:21 <ellipticiott> 06:02 <Gretell> Grum (g) | Spd: 10 | Int: normal (items) | HD: 4 | HP: 40 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Dam: 20 | Res: magic(16) | Chunks: contam | XP: 188.
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05:08:14 <monqy> how much piety do you have
05:08:40 <monqy> you miught be able to use lesser servant or major destruction, uhh
05:08:54 <monqy> major destruction can "turn on you" if you're too close and get an explosion, but you're not too close
05:08:59 <monqy> but your failrate is high
05:09:10 <monqy> minor destruction might be too wimpey
05:09:15 <monqy> go with major destruction i guess
05:09:41 <monqy> that's the sort of explosion i was talking about
05:09:46 <monqy> that's the sort of explosion i was talking about
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05:09:59 <monqy> also major destruction is more powerful at higher invo skill etc etc
05:10:04 <monqy> your invo is "kind of low"
05:10:14 <monqy> claw is better than minor destruction
05:10:28 <monqy> you could have die!!
05:10:33 <monqy> don't run from centaur!!
05:10:36 <monqy> dfuck into the room and close it
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05:10:50 <monqy> believe in yourself
05:10:58 <monqy> do you have any better ideas
05:11:07 <monqy> it would have been better if you hadn't made that other move
05:11:16 <monqy> what xl is that ghost
05:11:26 <monqy> you can dfuck behind the grey thing but
05:11:31 <monqy> you want to know the ghosts xl etc
05:11:42 <ellipticiott> http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/hyperelynae/morgue-hyperelynae-20120509-110358.txt
05:11:47 <monqy> drac ghosts xl7 and above have draining breath
05:12:05 <ellipticiott> maybe: zap heal wounds at myself; minor servant
05:12:15 <monqy> no you want to duck first
05:12:20 <monqy> or it will get free shots at you
05:12:26 <monqy> hbehind the grey thing but
05:12:29 <monqy> centaur would probably get you
05:12:37 <monqy> if only you could apport the arrow from the doorway!!
05:13:21 <monqy> you cant get drained
05:13:31 <monqy> so the draining breath is
05:13:58 <monqy> you might wnat another
05:14:00 <monqy> that's not a servant
05:14:04 <monqy> hellwing animated the hill giant
05:14:19 <monqy> ok i guess the hell wing alone worked
05:19:31 <monqy> "get meph" (laughs)
05:19:40 <monqy> honestly i'm not a fan of the conjurations school
05:19:47 <monqy> where by ehh i mean
05:19:55 <monqy> it's powerful and all but
05:20:01 <monqy> not my "cup of tea"
05:20:07 <ellipticiott> yeah this is boring me IM DONE WITH YOU OCNJURATIONS
05:20:12 <monqy> basically conjurations is magic dart x100000000000000000000000
05:20:19 <monqy> except for some oddballs
05:20:33 <monqy> hint the oddballs are worse than the magic darts
05:20:45 <monqy> where by worse i mean
05:20:47 <monqy> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz'er
05:21:26 <monqy> ducking might be hard
05:21:35 <monqy> oh no what are you doing
05:21:41 <monqy> you might be able to major destruction all of them
05:21:49 <monqy> then why did you do it
05:22:04 <monqy> might wnat to heal
05:22:27 <monqy> oh you could bliking mabye
05:22:33 <monqy> you might not be able to get out of los
05:23:33 <monqy> oh right the other reason besides "i like it more" for having chebyshev/manhattan los in some fassion is it's easier to calculate for players so they can know if they'll be out of los of something by ducking or w/e
05:23:51 <monqy> since like in crawl i never know if i'll actually be out of los of something it's just intuition
05:24:02 <monqy> you'd be out of los of a few of them
05:24:09 <monqy> prbabbly your best bet tho
05:25:03 <monqy> keep it around and recharge it when you get the chance
05:25:32 <monqy> summon some servants
05:26:39 <monqy> do you have any other choices?
05:26:53 <monqy> if you stay there the para will be worse since more bees will be hitting you
05:27:11 <monqy> if you want to get rid of the eyeball, u then destruction it
05:27:47 <monqy> or more servants and let them meatshield you from the bees
05:27:50 <monqy> and just spam them
05:28:08 <ellipticiott> i think i'm in too compromising a position to establish a shield of meat
05:28:37 <ellipticiott> i'd have to lesser destruction the eyeball since
05:30:42 <monqy> what did you do btw i wasnt watching
05:31:28 <ellipticiott> but it didn't help so i think i attacked right or something
05:32:34 <monqy> because of bee proximity
05:32:56 <monqy> i oopsed my messages together
05:33:20 <monqy> either blink or heal or servants or use a bolt wand the bees
05:33:29 <monqy> don't use anything that can explode or you'll anger your ynoxinum
05:33:45 <monqy> aim such that it hits all the bees and the eyeball
05:33:54 <monqy> draining will pass harmlessly through demons
05:33:55 <ellipticiott> what again? i was going to quaff curing at this point
05:33:56 <monqy> which makes it ideal
05:34:05 <monqy> get rid of the eyeball
05:34:19 <ellipticiott> it doesn't really want rid of and these bees are sorta
05:35:29 <monqy> might want to heal
05:35:48 <monqy> ok your lifeline is gone
05:35:52 <monqy> maybe try wanding again
05:35:53 <ellipticiott> wow how can killer bees not succumb to ynonxinuls they're 3s
05:36:18 <monqy> where by lifeline i mean the ufetubus. i guess the ynoxinuls are also distracting them
05:36:42 <monqy> hopefully it won't miss this time
05:38:08 <monqy> go for the deader bee
05:38:30 <monqy> where by hit hard i mean
05:38:39 <monqy> they hit a lot, and decently strongly
05:39:02 <ellipticiott> this bee is for eating when the centaurs come again
05:39:16 <monqy> ideally you'll bee in a better position
05:39:53 <monqy> take the down road
05:39:58 <monqy> up road is centaur territory
05:40:17 <ellipticiott> spd 10 so... not using major destruction on this guy
05:40:25 <monqy> if you like exploding yourself
05:40:31 <zzo38> Will your character be eye next time? No hand, just eye so that you are limited in unable to wear anything and so on,,,...,,...,,,,,,...,,.....,..,,,
05:40:36 <monqy> or backpedal, hatch, and try again later
05:40:39 <zzo38> I watched Kaiji show today.
05:41:21 <quintopia> zzo38: if just an eye, make friends with hand. maybe you can coordinate something.
05:41:29 <zzo38> In E Card, it is not permitted to just select a card from your hand at random; you have to decide which card to play. How can they possibly enforce that rule?
05:41:50 <ellipticiott> monqy: did you know: meleeing hill giants is a bad idea even after you've weakened them
05:41:52 <zzo38> quintopia: O, yes. But you have to do so later in the game, not just at the start (unless you start with such a spell)
05:42:37 <quintopia> zzo38: wand of hand-eye coordination
05:43:09 <zzo38> ellipticiott: Which one? Curse item? Uncurse item? Rotate dungeon layout?
05:43:36 <zzo38> Do any of these spells exist in this game?
05:43:55 <ellipticiott> zzo38: the first two do (well, (un)curse jewellery/armour/etc.)
05:45:12 <monqy> ellipticiott: you could fire draining through the helwing if you're really concerned
05:45:19 <zzo38> There is no curse item spell in ADOM (although it is possible to use other items to curse other items); if I make up some game there should be such a spells
05:45:35 <ellipticiott> monqy: well im on a stair to the orcish mines so i could just party on orc:1 for a bit if i really wanted to avoid this situation
05:45:48 <ellipticiott> doubt my wand of draining will last much longer and there are multiple hill giants around so
05:46:10 <zzo38> Another spell there should be is one, during the spell's duration, allows the target to make knight moves but disallow from making king moves
05:46:55 <zzo38> Do they have surveillance traps? Or, any other kind of traps, in this game?
05:48:12 <ellipticiott> i can probably take yaks on at this point i guess
05:50:19 <ellipticiott> i love the part where i get myself into trouble
05:51:13 <monqy> you can probably take the yaks if you choke them
05:51:33 <ellipticiott> 06:51 <|amethyst> ellipticiott: thanks for mentioning the thing about !, fixed in trunk (commit message should come shortly)
05:51:50 <monqy> welcome to the club
05:51:53 -!- ellipticiott has changed nick to elliott.
05:52:04 <elliott> monqy: i had a chokepoint but
05:52:13 <elliott> ill go for that chokepoint on the left of the map
05:52:18 <monqy> you lost hp killing the skeleetone
05:52:26 <monqy> you could go around that bend
05:52:31 <monqy> (the one below you)
05:54:14 <monqy> dunno if anyone told you but you can also annotate a level you aren't on if you';re standing on the corresponding staircase
05:54:29 <elliott> monqy: i just annotated it with
05:54:58 <elliott> i forgot you can't chokepoint them
05:55:09 <elliott> i want to hate slime creatures but they're too clever for me to
05:55:22 <monqy> probably not such a good idea for you to be fighting them at that hp anyway
05:55:31 <elliott> guess i'll run up another staircase
05:55:48 <monqy> why did you go that way
05:55:54 <elliott> i wanted to get to the green <
05:56:19 <monqy> thats what i meant with the proably not such a agreat idea
05:56:53 <elliott> anyway time to quaff curing again like a moron
05:57:03 <monqy> thats why curing is moronic
05:57:36 <elliott> i only ever feel two things when playing crawl
05:57:42 <elliott> "wow this is so boring when do i get to the fun stuff"
05:57:50 <elliott> "oh man how did i get down all the way here i'm way out of my league and about to die"
05:58:07 <monqy> have you fixed monqys-crawl yet
05:58:38 <elliott> (it's speed 10 but MAYBE IT'LL GET A RANDOM MOVE THING AND FALL BEHIND ME)
05:59:19 <monqy> "pillar dans foer ever"
06:00:08 <monqy> at a certain point, especially as a ghoul where you dont get such adverse effects from potionms and you dont have to worry about conserving cmut, it's better to quaffid your stacks than wait for scrolls
06:00:28 <monqy> "for the future" reference
06:00:31 <elliott> at this point i need to quaff id when quaff iding the wrong one will result in
06:00:57 <monqy> btw slime creitters regen quickly
06:01:00 <monqy> maybe youve noticed
06:02:46 <elliott> i either quaff id a potion or zap id a wand i guess
06:03:30 <elliott> monqy: if im agile maybe i can outrun it???
06:03:49 <monqy> agility doesnt incres yr sped sorey
06:04:00 <elliott> 07:03 <Henzell> agility[1/1]: Provides temporary Dex, EV, and stealth bonuses.
06:04:03 <monqy> bend space (laughes lauchges)
06:04:13 <monqy> step from time (lmaueo)
06:07:58 <elliott> monqy: anyway the problem with running away is that
06:08:28 <monqy> run away before things get you in trouble
06:08:37 <monqy> and not charge into things etc
06:14:10 <elliott> i think i'll stick with light armour + try some spelles in future
06:14:35 <elliott> Can someone help me with worshipping Lugonu.(Abysmal Knight) (self.roguelikes)
06:17:40 <elliott> http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/55fed8025e64a3ba584cfe6c0c6a7444bf655045
06:26:43 <zzo38> Does hiding certain functions from exporting in GHC cause it to optimize them in more ways than exported functions would be?
06:27:44 <Sgeo> What's the not-text-based roguelike that I only know of because it had an autopackage thingy?
06:28:00 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know
06:28:40 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopackage
06:30:17 <Sgeo> http://scourgeweb.org/tiki-index.php
06:30:30 <Sgeo> I never managed to play it, graphics requirements too high
06:30:43 <elliott> Jenna, 02:54 EDT, Fri 27 of Apr., 2012: dresses for wedding guest plus size cocktail dress beautiful wedding dresses flower girl dresses uk cheap bridesmaid dress short white dresses
06:31:59 <Sgeo> Although I think the version I tried was just S.C.O.U.R.G.E.
06:32:11 <oerjan> zzo38: "For best results, use an explicit export list. If you do, GHC can inline any non-exported functions that are only called once, even if they are very big."
06:32:32 <oerjan> from http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Performance/GHC
06:32:57 <zzo38> oerjan: Is that the only thing it can do? Can it do other things such as omit patterns which it knows are unused?
06:33:58 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't know, that's what i found by googling. i guess if it is inlined, it can probably also omit patterns.
06:34:16 <elliott> "Back in '77 I worked with Steve Bourne on /bin/sh (little known fact: like awk, sh was named for its inventors, 'S' for Steve and 'H' for Humbert) and was responsible for the 'done' keyword." And now you're paying penance by saying incorrect things about Stack Overflow questions about Haskell!!!!!
06:34:56 <oerjan> also it seems inlining requires the function to be non-recursive, even then.
06:34:58 <zzo38> What I mean, for example, it is used many times but always with the first parameter 0 then it could simplify by omitting that part from the module
06:36:11 <shachaf> I just got my check from Knuth!
06:36:31 <zzo38> shachaf: Does it work?
06:36:41 <shachaf> zzo38: For depositing? I doubt it.
06:36:47 <shachaf> It lacks a routing number, for one.
06:36:57 <Sgeo> Oh, so they're ceremonial now?
06:37:05 <oerjan> he makes them out to a fake bank, iirc
06:37:12 <Sgeo> (I mean physically ceremonial)
06:37:23 <oerjan> although you _can_ get a real one if you insist, no one does.
06:37:54 <elliott> he doesn't give real ones out any more, iirc.
06:38:11 <elliott> "Knuth had to stop sending real checks in 2008 due to bank fraud"
06:39:05 <zzo38> Will he pay you in cash if you go to his office?
06:39:08 <shachaf> I like the part where elliott is simultaneously reading my messages and pretending I don't exist.
06:39:18 <shachaf> zzo38: He says something along those lines on his website.
06:39:26 <zzo38> (with a printout of the letter, in case it is due to a letter you received from him)
06:39:31 <shachaf> "On the other hand, I don't like to renege on promises, so I shall do my best to find a suitable way to send money to anyone who really prefers legal tender."
06:42:00 <Sgeo> I always though the amount was for approx. e dollars
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06:57:14 <elliott> monqy: did you know almost every ??crawl entry is bad
06:58:20 <elliott> 07:58 <Chapayev> i think the next crawl variant needs to replace getting the orb of zot with installing gentoo for the first time
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06:59:05 <monqy> i havent read ??crawl
06:59:30 <elliott> 07:56 <Henzell> crawl[4/20]: press "o" to win crawltards
06:59:34 <elliott> 07:56 <Henzell> crawl[5/20]: <slyshy> Crawl sort of makes me want to be an art thief or something.
06:59:42 <elliott> 07:56 <Henzell> crawl[12/20]: <HangedMan> ...basically taking advantage of mental illness
06:59:45 <elliott> 07:56 <Henzell> crawl[13/20]: ヽ(メ˃Д˂)シ ≡⌨
06:59:50 <elliott> 07:56 <Henzell> crawl[14/20]: [08:49] <stenno> more sexy than nethack!
06:59:51 <shachaf> monqy: whiche bot gives me ?? entries in ##crawl¿¿¿¿¿¿
06:59:57 <elliott> 07:56 <Henzell> crawl[17/20]: <Tally> I suppose Crawl is one of those games that make you want to fuck centaurs
07:00:29 <elliott> monqy: anyway what's cang ;_;
07:00:47 <monqy> it's the oldest injoke in the book and nobody knows how it happened
07:01:12 <itidus20> everyone who was inside it died?
07:01:43 <itidus20> it now drifts through memespace orphaned
07:02:48 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: ETc<.).
07:03:33 <elliott> occasionally i see mong and im like
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07:07:17 <elliott> is mong like monqy though : /
07:07:23 <elliott> can i just treat you as one
07:07:28 <elliott> well nobody is like monqy i guess
07:07:35 <shachaf> monqy: wait are you mong now
07:07:38 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: If you are Prime Minister of Klopstokia, will you make it illegal to be late for meetings? Will you remove the words "I don't want" from the dictionary?).
07:08:40 <shachaf> if i aske a questione will elliott answere it indirectly
07:09:46 <elliott> syraines tepr guide is good
07:09:53 <elliott> its a much better entry than ??crawl
07:10:25 <elliott> 08:08 <Chapayev> mikee_: i wrote syraines tepr guide and i have never played a tepr
07:11:13 <elliott> https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=583&view=next I'm pretty confident I'm missing the point here but can someone tell me what exactly this "cang" meme is about?
07:11:47 <elliott> - e is euler's number and is supposedly a Pretty Big Deal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_(mathematical_constant)
07:11:47 <elliott> - pi is also an important mathematical constant to do with circles and whatnot
07:11:51 <monqy> but yeah that thread was pretty hilarious
07:12:05 <elliott> I'm sure all this with the name "cang" adds up to one hilarious joke for those cool enough to be in the know, but so far it has only irritated me.
07:12:08 <monqy> i think that was before minmay did irc
07:12:12 <elliott> wow tavern people are irritable
07:12:56 <elliott> does "proprietor" mean they run it
07:13:15 <monqy> yeah he started the tavern project
07:14:16 <monqy> nooo they were aligned
07:14:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `project'': not found
07:14:39 <elliott> i have to rebel some way monqy
07:14:44 <elliott> if it wasn't proportional fonts for irc
07:14:50 <olsner> elliott: you use comic sans, right?
07:14:55 <elliott> it'd be drugs and slavery :(
07:15:33 <olsner> I think slavery is not very rebellious
07:15:48 <elliott> adults just can't understand
07:16:42 <elliott> 08:13 <Chapayev> !learn add trcj_guide Your landlord already thinks you're a deadbeat and now you're blasting holes in the walls. You shout in anger and frustration and hurl your spellbook into the kitchen sink in a fit of adolescent rage, then you dump your coffee over its pages.
07:16:48 <elliott> monqy: its too gritty i cant handle it help!!!
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07:18:40 <elliott> https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4&p=4#p4
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07:24:05 <Sgeo> There needs to be an IRC channel for Barbu
07:24:23 <elliott> !learn add cheiwalking see {crawl}
07:27:37 <Sgeo> @tell Phantom_Hoover I should be able to comfortably host W:A games now
07:29:38 <elliott> it was funnier when ??chei-walking had just been done in ##crawl
07:31:16 <shachaf> New way to spell (>>=): >≥
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07:32:10 <shachaf> No, I guess that would be >>==
07:32:37 -!- cheater_ has joined.
07:33:22 <shachaf> (Of course it would be ≫= if anything.)
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07:54:36 <elliott> 08:52 <ktgrey> conj is good
07:55:57 <monqy> depends on what you mean by good
07:56:38 <monqy> some people in ##crawl like boring awful things
08:15:33 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Thu May 10 01:15:33 2012
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08:31:38 <Sgeo> monqy: help elliott and Ngevd UPDATE
08:40:44 <elliott> Ngevd: Howseyruo roguel iek
08:41:08 <elliott> oops i accidentally created a face
08:42:06 <Ngevd> elliott, BEING REWRITTEN IN HTML+JAVASCRIPT FOR PURPOSES YOU ARE NOT WONT TO KNOW
08:42:32 <monqy> i want to know now
08:42:40 <Ngevd> But you are not wont to know!
08:42:55 <monqy> i want to know how much more i should be shameing you
08:43:03 <elliott> i made it correct by mistake
08:43:20 <Ngevd> monqy, I write programs on windows and I couldn't it working on haskell in windows
08:44:12 <olsner> elliott: why so many short lines ...
08:44:16 <olsner> maybe you should start speaking in sentences?
08:45:08 <elliott> its ok we can shame you from afar
08:45:09 <monqy> sham for all; free sham today
08:45:14 <elliott> monqy: can i have the shams
08:45:59 <elliott> this is the worst christmas ever
08:46:58 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Thu May 10 01:46:57 2012
08:46:59 <monqy> it's so bad it's in may
08:47:05 <monqy> what happened, christmas
08:47:07 <elliott> yes sometimes christmas gets earlier the worse it is
08:47:17 <elliott> christmas in january "probably what we'll be having after the apocalypse"
08:47:28 <elliott> which means we get two christmases within a month this year!!!
08:47:33 <monqy> ghosts only no people alowed
08:47:37 <monqy> joke's ghosts are people too
08:48:56 <elliott> monqy: do you remember when santa existed :(
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08:50:45 <elliott> youore time on this earth is running out monqy !!!
08:51:03 <elliott> theres no coming back after the battery runs out <italics>!</italijcsks>
08:52:01 <elliott> monqy: also yuore going to explode too
08:52:09 <monqy> i dont want to explod
08:53:07 <elliott> monqy: be also ready to stomach.
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09:03:49 <elliott> monqy wasn't ready to stomach.
09:07:38 <elliott> welcome fizzie. u 2 will be discarded by the evisceration as monqy ceases to sustain the universe
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09:12:06 <elliott> i had a dream about a horse who wouldn't go away
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09:13:25 <elliott> but he didn't have any hands, so it was ok to be mean to him
09:14:02 <monqy> do horses usually have hands
09:15:41 <elliott> hey tane.us got more pages!!!
09:16:07 <monqy> http://tane.us/spacedog.html
09:16:29 <monqy> is that a secret page
09:16:35 <monqy> theres another secret page i forget where it is
09:16:42 <elliott> this is a perfect simulator of me
09:16:49 <elliott> just press the spacebar erratically
09:23:05 <elliott> monqy: attn. i added 2 and 2 and got monqy. are you responsible for this
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09:23:43 <elliott> you do not have any of the answers monqy do you
09:23:51 <elliott> it is okay ; i too lack the answers ?
09:25:05 <elliott> the true secret in this world is that there are no answers monqy
09:25:27 <elliott> 10:15 <anubisbafoobis> EXECUTIVE DECISION, ILLL BE BACK EITHER MORE SOBER OR UNABLE TO SEE.
09:25:27 <elliott> 10:15 <anubisbafoobis> Either way, I am ascending.
09:25:27 <elliott> 10:15 anubisbafoobis has left IRC (Quit: Page closed)
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09:26:13 <monqy> all i know about him is one time he was starving and died of starvation on the turn he bought out an entire food shop
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10:01:55 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Thu May 10 03:01:53 2012
10:02:28 <monqy> i want to be a sleep
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10:12:08 <itidus20> now would be a bad a time as any to formulate the rules to an xkcd drinking game
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10:16:54 <elliott> this is what happens when monqy stops being in charge of these things
10:17:00 <elliott> there's no limits on the depravity we will reach god help us
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11:00:53 <cheater__> lol @ minecraft world: http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120312.html
11:03:49 <ais523> elliott: so I reached level 22 in Brogue last night
11:03:54 <ais523> (the Amulet of Yendor is on 26)
11:04:01 <ais523> and I've seen almost all the monsters in the game now
11:04:02 <elliott> oh dear, you're getting addicted, aren't you
11:04:15 <ais523> it's quite a quick game, that only took about 3 hours of play
11:04:22 <ais523> that's wrt all the attempts
11:04:30 <elliott> I think quickness is a good thing in a roguelike
11:04:40 <ais523> got killed by an allied troll because I didn't realise it had been discorded
11:04:40 <elliott> since usually all that changes is less repetition of the same stuff
11:06:11 <ais523> Brogue actually makes Crawl's thing of "you have to do with the items you find" actually /work/, when previously I'd have said it was a really stupid idea
11:06:19 <ais523> it doesn't work in Crawl, though, because it has a character selection screen
11:06:51 <elliott> as in, what can you have other than "you have to do with the items you find"?
11:07:31 <ais523> in Brogue you select your character after you start playing (with ♪oE), so that it's going to be compatible with the items you find
11:07:42 <elliott> I like races/classes, personally; it's nice to have inherently different aptitudes and abilities to make things interesting
11:07:47 <elliott> even if items are a large part of character-building
11:08:03 <ais523> and say, in NetHack, if you want to play a particular sort of character you can typically actively go out and gain the items you need to do that
11:08:14 <ais523> with the Castle wand or polypiling or branch rewards
11:08:40 <ais523> Crawl does this to some extent with shops, but not with anything else
11:09:05 <elliott> right, I like the use of randomness for character building
11:09:07 <ais523> and Brogue does it with key reward rooms sometimes, but that mostly just gives enough flexibility to create a consistent character, rather than a particular character you wanted to play
11:09:21 <elliott> Crawl tries to do that with the draconian colour thing; apparently it doesn't work too well
11:10:14 <ais523> it doesn't work too well /because/ it doesn't give you the opportunity to build around your character
11:10:31 <elliott> FWIW, my solidifying opinion on Crawl is that it's a bad game, but fun to play
11:10:33 <ais523> say you become a draconian who's really good at casting fire spells, that's pointless unless you happened to start FE or find a book of fire
11:10:48 <ais523> I guess you could play atheist until your color changed and then pick an appropriate god
11:10:52 <elliott> and whining about its numerous flaws is part of that fun
11:10:59 <ais523> but that's going to be problematic
11:11:14 <elliott> ais523: what I heard was that it's ineffective bceause the colours barely mean anything
11:11:21 <elliott> so people just keep doing what they were doing
11:11:33 <ais523> they have to, because if they did mean something the game would be unplayable
11:12:11 <elliott> btw, I'm now responsible for a commit to Crawl happening :(
11:12:29 <elliott> http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/55fed8025e64a3ba584cfe6c0c6a7444bf655045
11:12:32 <ais523> I'm responsible for a commit to Crawl happening too
11:12:53 <ais523> I have JS enabled for gitorious already, it seems
11:12:56 <ais523> but IIRC it isn't needed for those pages
11:12:57 <elliott> I asked how to annotate levels you're not on, and whether ! in the Xmap does it; answer is yes, and I said I wasn't sure because it used the same prompt as it would for annotating the current level
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11:13:37 <elliott> ais523: I think JS /is/ needed for that page, because it starts off with a "hey, this page needs JS!" message and no diff
11:15:04 <elliott> hypothesis: almost any roguelike would be fun to play as long as it (a) has an interface as polished as Crawl's, and (b) has a lot of different stuff
11:16:16 <elliott> ais523: btw, what LOS do you like? (in general)
11:16:21 <ais523> elliott: do you allow "more polished than Crawl's"?
11:16:35 <ais523> and I think I like NetHack/Brogue-style LOS the best
11:16:46 <elliott> sure, although I'm sceptical of the implicit claim that any roguelike has a more polished interface than Crawl right now
11:16:53 <elliott> well, Brogue's is more polished in the sense that it's pretty
11:16:55 <ais523> although it works better in NetHack than in Brogue, it doesn't interact too well with pits
11:16:59 <elliott> but not in the sense that it can keep track of a bunch of stuff for you
11:17:12 <elliott> ais523: I don't like being able to see through walls
11:17:13 <ais523> oh, I care about things like consistency, and lag resistance
11:17:25 <ais523> you can't see through walls in NetHack or Brogue, unless they happen to be transparent
11:17:44 <elliott> well, that's a kind of LOS
11:17:53 <elliott> OK, different question: what kind of targeting to you like?
11:18:05 <ais523> I think it depends on what you want from your combat
11:18:23 <elliott> ranged targeting, that is; or even not combat at all
11:18:30 <ais523> Animist is going to use 8-direction targeting like NetHack, but where many spells are homing so you can hit things that aren't on the diagonals
11:18:34 <elliott> actually, blinking isn't really relevant
11:18:49 <elliott> ais523: yeah i can't abide by "you can only fire hjklyubn"
11:18:55 <ais523> it is in Brogue, you can choose direction not distance so you have to aim at a wall
11:18:58 <elliott> it's just ridiculous that something can avoid being attacked by standing one direction below
11:19:06 <elliott> even if they're practically right next to you
11:19:15 <ais523> elliott: it's nice on the interface, at least, and for magic it actually makes flavour sense (the words of the spell determine the direction)
11:19:21 <ais523> anyway, I'll be back later, /away
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11:44:25 <Taneb> I've messed up my laptop again...
11:53:15 <Taneb> This is why I shouldn't be allowed to upgrade things
11:55:09 <elliott> Whoa, id Software is pronounced as in the word id, not as in eye-dee software.
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12:18:11 <Taneb> "error: unknown filesystem; grub rescue>": please advise
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12:19:40 <Taneb> I attempted to install Ubuntu 12.04
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12:20:51 <Taneb> The first install went bad
12:21:01 <ais523> Taneb: looks like the second one did too
12:21:03 <elliott> is there any data of value on the partitions in question
12:21:23 <ais523> not having a recognisable filesystem is quite a major problem for a partition, really
12:21:26 <elliott> if no: just boot a livecd, dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdwhatever, start the install from scratch
12:21:26 <Taneb> The partitions grub gives access to?
12:21:35 <elliott> Taneb: the drive full stop
12:21:39 <ais523> if you know what filesystem's meant to be on there, you could run the appropriate version of fsck from a liveCD, I guess
12:21:43 <elliott> (actually, you can cancel that dd after a minute, since it'll have overwritten the important parts)
12:21:54 <elliott> Taneb: how painful would it be to rescue it and start over
12:22:37 <elliott> might be the simplest thing... the alternative is messing with the partition table (which might not be that much of a pain)
12:22:54 <elliott> boot the ubuntu installer and do manual partitioning, if you're confident in your skills of recognising which partition has your important data
12:23:01 <elliott> then just try deleting all the others and adding a new one for ubuntu
12:26:13 <elliott> Patashu: how do i watch your zotdef
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12:27:23 <kmc> wong tiles
12:27:27 <kmc> wang tiles even
12:29:00 <Patashu> it makes zotdef a lot easier
12:29:18 <elliott> you're such a windows user
12:29:30 <elliott> how the fuck do you turn it to glyphs
12:29:56 <elliott> too much spacing w/ glyphs+symbols
12:31:07 <elliott> i'm ding wi by using just glyphs
12:32:36 <elliott> Patashu: i don't get zot defence
12:32:59 <Patashu> like zotdef is a thing you 'get
12:33:12 <elliott> i don't actually understand what you are doing
12:34:09 <elliott> one level beyond "killing dudes"
12:34:29 <Taneb> elliott: it won't delete
12:35:07 <Taneb> 2 partitions that I want to delete won't delete
12:35:17 <Patashu> mennas got stuck in some kind of AI loop
12:35:40 <elliott> Taneb: why do you say they "won't delete"
12:35:46 <elliott> what behaviour occurs to make you say this
12:35:51 <elliott> Patashu: but what are you DOING
12:35:55 <Taneb> "Error deleting parition"
12:36:12 <Patashu> stopping monsters from getting to the orb
12:36:17 <elliott> Taneb: is this your primary machine
12:36:36 <elliott> can you boot any other OS on it
12:36:52 <Taneb> No, they all go via grub
12:37:35 <elliott> would you consider the problem temporarily resolved if you could boot windows (and not linux)
12:38:52 <elliott> do you have a windows cd lying around
12:39:22 <Taneb> I have a Toshiba recover disk
12:39:55 <elliott> you could just reinstall the bootloader
12:40:18 <elliott> now that said there's a vague possibility you'll be able to convince the grub rescue stuff to boot windows but it'll be A Huge Pain if it's possible so uh
12:40:35 <elliott> it might be best to use the ubuntu livecd to copy all your data off and then just nuke the disk from orbit
12:40:43 <elliott> by which I mean wipe it and reinstall everything
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12:49:35 <Taneb> ...I have a Windows 98 SE CD
12:49:49 <Taneb> Would that be any help?
12:53:35 <elliott> unless you want to install windows 98
12:57:15 <elliott> Patashu: why are two other people watching you
13:05:12 <elliott> Patashu: you gonna report that bug? :P
13:06:07 <elliott> but it's even in a release!
13:08:48 <Patashu> and it probably has a retardedly complex cause
13:08:49 <elliott> how do you know it doesn't happen in the eral game too?!
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13:09:06 <Patashu> because zotdef fucks with all the pathfinding etc stuff
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14:07:00 <lkjhl> what this channel is about ?
14:07:33 <qfr> Indian food
14:07:37 <HackEgo> lkjhl: This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
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14:13:37 <ion> @time #esoteric
14:14:15 <ion> @time #haskell-blah
14:15:01 <qfr> [16:13:40] Channel CTCP TIME request from lambdabot [~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com] (TIME), ignored
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15:03:03 <oklopol> Gregor: possibly the best short #esoteric fanfiction paragraph i've read today
15:06:47 <cheater__> if i can tell the kolmogorov complexity of a program, can this translate directly to the cost of running it on hardware (cpu time, memory usage)?
15:07:33 <oklopol> the kolmogorov complexity of the program as a string of letters?
15:08:17 <oklopol> !help i don't know maybe like this
15:08:17 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for i_don_t_know_maybe_like_this!
15:08:35 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for commands!
15:08:41 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for you!
15:08:52 <cheater__> oklopol: kolmogorov complexity can be used to check the complexity of a text, but also of more complex objects, such as programs
15:09:02 <cheater__> oklopol: look at text as a trivial program which is its output
15:09:03 <oklopol> and what does it mean then?
15:09:50 <oklopol> that only helps if i know what the k complexity of a program is and i'm given a string
15:09:58 <oklopol> but i only know what the k of a word is
15:10:05 <cheater__> a measure of the computational resources needed to run a program
15:10:26 <cheater__> that is the high level definition of kolmogorov complexity of a program
15:10:50 <cheater__> notice i said "run" a program not "describe" a program
15:11:02 <oklopol> can you link a definition?
15:11:18 <cheater__> if you wanted to check the computational resources needed to describe it, you'd probably use an optimizing compiler of some sort.
15:12:09 <oklopol> esolang_1234: keep spamming me
15:12:58 <oklopol> cheater__: okay, never heard of such a thing
15:13:11 <oklopol> well i have heard of measures of running complexities
15:13:19 <oklopol> perhaps that's a natural thing to call them
15:15:35 <cheater__> if you were tasked with measuring the cost of running a program, how would you approach it?
15:16:47 <esolang_1234> How do I run a BF program with EgoBot? I got it to give me the language list, but I can't findn the run command.
15:16:49 <oklopol> do you mean how would i model that mathematically, or do you mean i'm given a program?
15:17:30 <oklopol> !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
15:17:33 <oklopol> !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
15:17:53 <oklopol> !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++.
15:17:59 <oklopol> !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++.
15:19:13 <EgoBot> `_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543210/.-,+*)('&%$#"! ..................... \.........
15:19:17 <oklopol> cheater__: as the mathematical model, i would assume we compute total self-maps on naturals, and let T(n) be the number of steps taken when input is n, and S(n) be the space used
15:21:25 <esolang_1234> What happens when Egobot does an infinite loop? I don't think it can solve the halting problem.
15:21:53 <EgoBot> ....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
15:21:59 <oklopol> if you ask me to investigate a particular program's running times, i'd run it on a few random inputs or tell you to go fuck yourself.
15:22:31 * Gregor writes more oklopol/elliott shipping.
15:22:36 <oklopol> esolang_1234: it can solve the halting problem for all programs you can submit through irc though
15:23:09 <esolang_1234> What if I submit wolfram's 2s3s turing machine?
15:23:11 <oklopol> you can easily do that with a look-up table for any finite length
15:24:19 <oklopol> esolang_1234: the first program for it that hasn't been proven to either terminate or not needs two characters more than the freenode message length
15:24:32 <oklopol> Gregor really thought this one through
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15:29:32 <esolang_1234> !bf ++++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>.>---.>----.<++++++.----.+.+++.+.-.---.>+.>--.
15:30:17 <esolang_1234> +++++++++++++++[>+++>++++++++>+++++++>++++++<<<<-]>>>----.<-----.----.---.>>+++++++.<<++.>++.>--.<<<++++.+.+.+.--------------------.>--.>>++++++++++.++.<--.<+++++++.<.>>.<.>>++++.---.<----.>++.-------.<<.<++++++++++++++.------------------------------------.
15:31:25 <esolang_1234> !bf +++++++++++[>+++++++++>+++>+><<<<-]>>.<-.++++.-------.+++++++++++++++++++++.++++.----.-------------.--.+++++++++.>-.+++++++++++.+++.>-.
15:31:50 <esolang_1234> !bf +++++++++++++++[>+++>++++++++>+++++++>++++++<<<<-]>>>----.<-----.----.---.>>+++++++.<<++.>++.>--.<<<++++.+.+.+.--------------------.>--.>>++++++++++.++.<--.<+++++++.<.>>.<.>>++++.---.<----.>++.-------.<<.<++++++++++++++.------------------------------------.
15:31:51 <EgoBot> esolang_1234 likes esolangs.
15:33:45 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
15:34:21 <esolang_1234> !bf +++++++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++>+++>++++<<<<-]>+.>>++++.-.>--.<+++.--.<<++.>>-----------------.>++.+++++++++.<<--.++++++++.>>---.<<.+++++.>>----.<.<<++++++++.>-.----.---.<----.>++.<++++++.--------.>>>-------------.+.+.+.<.<--.---.++.<++++++.>++++++++.>.<<.>.----.---.<----.>++.-------.++++++++++++.>>------.<----------------------.
15:34:22 <EgoBot> [10:31] <EgoBot> esolang_1234 likes esolangs.
15:37:04 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
15:37:46 <EgoBot> Score for esolang_1234_failshudder: 16.7
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15:50:29 <itidus20> <piman> Diablo's rogue-influenced, but so are Dark Cloud, Dwarf Fortress, Dungeon Siege... I don't think any of those are roguelikes either.
15:50:29 <itidus20> <piman> (Apparently all mainstream roguelikelikes have to start with "D" though.)
15:59:28 <cheater__> that doesn't start with a.. oh wait
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16:41:53 <ais523> more roguelike than many open-source or beerfree roguelikes
16:42:01 <ais523> and yet it's a mainstream game and doesn't start with D
16:45:01 <Lumpio-> The shiren series is the only roguelike I've ever bothered with
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17:54:42 <Gregor> Urrgh. If you want to get through gmail's junk mail filter, it's really easy: Just attach a virus to your email. Then it's guaranteed that the recipient will get at least your subject line.
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18:11:50 <Taneb> Is there a command that tells me what commands were installed with a particular package?
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18:33:51 <kmc> cheater__ -S
18:34:22 <cheater__> thinking what i should do at the gym tomorrow
18:34:57 <cheater__> maybe i'll do some abs in addition to the usual which is arms
18:35:06 <kmc> don't you have enough arms already
18:36:23 <cheater__> or are you cultivating a life raft
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18:38:42 <cheater__> does it have double precision hdr colour yet
18:38:49 <kmc> waiting for ur patches
18:39:11 <cheater__> my patches will not merge with such a primitive codebase
18:39:17 <cheater__> i need at least wordpress code quality
18:39:49 <kmc> we will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own
18:40:24 <kmc> itym futex
18:40:39 <nortti> I unistalled Xorg today. Now I only use framebuffer and console apps
18:40:54 <kmc> perhaps bonghits will fix your Xorg
18:41:16 <nortti> Now I have 3 times more free memory
18:41:18 <cheater__> nortti why did you think i said i need 80 arms
18:41:26 <cheater__> the best resolution is 80 chars amirite
18:41:40 <cheater__> nortti: you can finally execute emacs
18:41:50 <tswett> Like Lisp, but the only atoms are "and" and "or".
18:42:04 <tswett> That is the entire idea.
18:42:31 <kmc> cheater__: futex is a linux system call
18:42:32 <nortti> cheater__: why would I want to use emacs if I can use ed?
18:42:35 <kmc> if u did not kno
18:43:14 <tswett> (and) is true and (or) is false, and... I don't know what (()) is.
18:44:06 <cheater__> tswett: make it use deontic logic and you're getting somewhere.
18:44:59 <nortti> what language are you talking about?
18:45:58 <kmc> nortti: http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity490.html
18:47:07 <nortti> kmc: I still don't understand
18:47:08 <cheater__> you have been tasked with entertaining me
18:47:38 <cheater__> persevere and your god might pull you out of your miserable little life
18:48:07 <cheater__> fail, and your soul shall forever roam the labirynths of doom
18:50:04 <kmc> nortti: it's ok
18:50:16 <kmc> cheater__: have you seen this british sitcom _Peep Show_?
18:50:22 <kmc> i might be the last person on earth to hear about it
18:50:25 <kmc> but it's bloody hilarious
18:50:49 <kmc> you are in europe and so the european tv takes less time to propogate
18:51:02 <kmc> well, you're a bad person and you should die in a fire
18:51:07 <kmc> how much have you seen?
18:51:07 <cheater__> probably because i've had british idiots around all day every day
18:51:34 <cheater__> i've heard of peep show before i heard of you
18:52:14 <kmc> i thought Series 3 was particularly funny
18:52:17 <cheater__> unless you're the guy who came to london from boston, and was raving about haskell and erlang and his hedge fund software during a pub drinking night
18:52:19 <kmc> but it's all good
18:52:35 <kmc> that all sounds like something i'd do, except for erlang
18:52:53 <cheater__> also have you ever had a moustache
18:53:09 <kmc> not a very good one
18:53:22 <tswett> I think I like the idea of modal logic gates.
18:54:21 <tswett> Because there is a king in Norway.
18:54:54 <tswett> No, quantum computing has tons of nuances that the phrase "modal logic gates" does not imply.
18:57:27 <cheater__> yeah and php is not a wrapper around c libs
18:57:40 <kmc> the basic description of a quantum computer is a) pretty simple, and b) totally different from what anyone who hasn't studied quantum computing thinks it is
18:58:23 <kmc> tswett: which modal logic do you have in mind?
18:58:50 <kmc> linear temporal logic could be a fun basis for an esolang
18:59:16 <nortti> kmc: in which ways is it different?
19:00:36 <tswett> Well, in a quantum computer, every possible classical memory state is assigned a complex number, the "probability amplitude", such that the sums of the squares of the absolute values of these numbers (the "probabilities") is 1.
19:01:22 <tswett> Computation consists of a sequence of quantum logic gates, which are unitary linear transformations, and observations, which are weird.
19:01:25 <tswett> Or something like that, anyway.
19:01:30 <kmc> nortti: it's not known to give you generalized nondeterminism
19:02:41 <cheater__> kmc: modal logic can be expressed in quantum computing in a very natural way
19:02:45 <kmc> it's possible that BQP = NP but also possible that BQP = P
19:03:04 <cheater__> kmc: because quantum computing is constraint computing
19:03:34 <cheater__> if your constraints don't fit your wavefunkshion collapsez
19:03:40 <tswett> It's also possible that P = NP...
19:03:56 <kmc> cheater__: uh
19:03:57 <tswett> But that's considered unlikely.
19:06:08 <cheater__> kmc: http://www.jerkcity.com/_jerkcity4856.html
19:07:08 <kmc> i mean when you ask experts for a guess, you get some "P ≠ NP", some "P = NP", some "independent of ZFC", and some "don't know"
19:07:24 <kmc> P ≠ NP is certainly the plurality view, but not unanimous
19:07:31 <kmc> http://www.cs.umd.edu/~gasarch/papers/poll.pdf
19:09:05 <kmc> wrt a random oracle, P ≠ NP with probability 1
19:09:28 <kmc> and yet there are classes which are unequal this way with probability 1, yet are equal in the "real world" with no oracle
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19:25:33 <cheater__> kmc, http://www.jerkcity.com/_jerkcity4805.html
19:29:05 <pikhq_> "Webcomic author's tip: always wait at least 5 years between updates. Amateurs often update more frequently but this is a mistake."
19:37:02 <cheater__> http://www.jerkcity.com/_jerkcity4769.html
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19:40:41 <Sgeo> As much as I don't like the GOP, this image is pretty
19:40:42 <Sgeo> http://www.gop.com/themes/site_themes/gop/images/footerbanner.png
19:41:43 <cheater__> http://www.jerkcity.com/_jerkcity4755.html
19:41:53 <cheater__> kmc: i think you need a kernel patch
19:42:07 <kmc> strcpy("dongs", "bongs")
19:42:45 <Sgeo> "Grand Old Party". The Republican party.
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19:43:17 <kmc> gcc doesn't warn on that line, even with -Wall
19:43:29 <kmc> i would have thought that string literals have type const char*
19:43:38 <kmc> but maybe they don't, for backwards compat
19:43:49 <pikhq_> Name's kinda ironic: they're the younger of the two major US parties.
19:44:03 <pikhq_> kmc: The standard says they're const char*.
19:44:37 <fizzie> IIRC, it doesn't; it just says you shouldn't modify them.
19:44:46 <fizzie> The type is still plain char.
19:45:00 <kmc> 'The term originated in 1875 in the Congressional Record, referring to the party associated with the successful military defense of the Union as "this gallant old party"; the following year in an article in the Cincinnati Commercial, the term was modified to "grand old party".'
19:45:55 <pikhq_> ... The fuck they're actually char[]s but modifying them is undefined behavior.
19:46:08 <fizzie> "For character string literals, the array elements have type char, ..."
19:46:09 <pikhq_> kmc: -Wwrite-strings should warn about mutating a string literal.
19:46:14 <pikhq_> (it's not part of -Wall)
19:46:31 <nortti> By the way ate there even other parties and democrats and republicans in USA
19:46:35 <kmc> it's not even in -Wextra!
19:46:45 <kmc> nortti: sure, there are tons, they rarely have any political power though
19:47:01 <pikhq_> nortti: I did say "*major*" for a reason.
19:47:15 <pikhq_> There's dozens of political parties, just hardly any that remain relevant.
19:47:16 <fizzie> You used to be able to make them writable with -fwritable-strings, but I think that has gone away.
19:47:28 <oklopol> NP is a proper subset of P
19:47:59 <pikhq_> fizzie: I suspect they figure that anything that old won't work with any modern libc *anyways*. :)
19:48:11 <kmc> oklopol: no it isn't
19:48:13 <pikhq_> oklopol: Congrats on your millions.
19:48:18 <oklopol> the proof uses the theory of GOL gliders
19:48:33 <oklopol> i just finished the proof and am going to be rich
19:48:42 <kmc> cool story bro
19:50:53 <cheater__> http://www.jerkcity.com/_jerkcity4724.html
19:52:34 <cheater__> you have not failed me, little one
19:53:11 <kmc> you have discovered jerkcity?
19:53:14 <kmc> or just rediscovered
19:55:57 <cheater__> kmc, recursion: http://www.jerkcity.com/_jerkcity4713.html
19:58:28 <kmc> cheater__: i'm watching http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_(TV_series)
19:58:39 <kmc> i haven't decided if it's interesting or really terrible or both
19:59:00 <cheater__> you need to watch stargate sg-1 back to back.
19:59:19 <kmc> this show has a total Magic Negro character
19:59:25 <kmc> i thought writers were wise to that sort of thing by now
19:59:26 <ais523> btw, I have a prediction for what will happen in Oracle v Google
19:59:37 <ais523> I predict that Google will be found to owe Oracle exactly $750 in damages
20:00:05 <kmc> parts of this show sound like the Numberwang Code trailer
20:00:22 <cheater__> kmc, i've found a movie which you must watch
20:00:27 <kmc> you don't know about numberwang?
20:01:05 <kmc> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjOZtWZ56lc
20:01:23 <kmc> ais523: why that much
20:01:28 <kmc> cheater__: he lives in the bronx, so probably poor
20:01:43 <ais523> kmc: it's the minimum possible value for wilful copyright infringement, so it would seem appropriate for 9 lines out of 15 million
20:01:56 <kmc> i didn't know there were minimum penalties in civil suits
20:06:48 <kmc> hm maybe i should watch stargate
20:07:23 <kmc> i think i have a copy
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20:17:11 <cheater__> kmc: have you seen "history of numberwang"?
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20:25:03 <nortti> "Shit, we swore we were going to get through this week without praising the Third Reich again."
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22:26:53 <ais523> <Tiak> C++,C--,C#,Cω,C♫, C₀ and C! are already taken, might I recommend "C-:"? It looks something like a smiley face.
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22:45:46 * ais523 downloads Unity source
22:45:57 <ais523> oh, should download gnome-games source too
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00:30:16 <Madoka-Kaname> ais523> <Tiak> C++,C--,C#,Cω,C♫, C₀ and C! are already taken, might I recommend "C-:"? It looks something like a smiley face.
00:30:42 <cheater__> kmc: did you decide if Touch is good or bad
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02:29:13 <zzo38> Something I was trying to think of with WizardCard, for example in Magic: the Gathering you may have a card with effect: Enchanted permanent gains "{0}: Destroy ~". Note in this case what the tilde refers to! So when converting into a computer code, the macro has to know what it is doing!
02:32:49 <zzo38> For example if it eventually becomes: grant(read(this,attachee),activated(free,destroy(tilde))) and then it has to expand the "tilde" macro. Possibly by using some kind of lambda so that the parameter can be replaced at runtime by the current "this"? I don't know exactly how.
02:34:43 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/thjko/oh_ghc/ why is this a submission
02:34:43 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
02:43:47 <zzo38> Madoka-Kaname: Higher order functions are useful but macros are also useful for different purpose.
02:43:58 <zzo38> There are some things one will do which the other won't.
02:45:31 <Madoka-Kaname> activated :: Cost -> (Context -> Context) -> Ability
02:45:42 <zzo38> Madoka-Kaname: Well, even the code I gave would result from the expansion of a few macros; but I am using some macro just for what I have thought.
02:46:26 <zzo38> But, yes, your type would be essentially it; well, the second parameter might differ somehow, or maybe not...
02:49:06 <Madoka-Kaname> data Ability = Triggered (Context -> Bool) (Context -> Context) | Activated Cost (Context -> Context)
02:49:09 <zzo38> To give an example in Haskell where a macro would work but a function won't do, is: let { f g = either g g } in f :: (b -> c) -> Either b b -> c; let { f g = either length length } in f :: t -> Either [a] [a1] -> Int; if f were a macro in the first case then you could do like the second one too since their types fail to match
02:50:43 <zzo38> Madoka-Kaname: I think those are a bit too simple; for example, these parameters are not necessarily pure values since first you need to calculate them in context (and there may be rules to override the context), and then this "grant" also needs to count as a (static) ability, etc
02:51:35 <zzo38> Which means it need to allow overriding and other things, some which can be done by monads others which help partially by macros too
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03:11:40 <zzo38> Consider an Inform 7 program such as "Instead of taking the telephone booth, kill the player." But, this is a global rule. In Magic: the Gathering, there might be effects on cards that act somewhat like this, and even these ones can be overridden; global rules can also be overridden.
03:25:02 <tswett> Gregor: you wrote the music to this game's title screen, right? http://armorgames.com/play/13225/pretentious-game
03:27:32 <elliott> _n - a cursed -5 ring of strength (left claw)
03:29:30 <TeruFSX> anybody know a good non-distance-weighted pathfinding algorithm
03:30:01 <zzo38> TeruFSX: What are you making?
03:30:15 <TeruFSX> basically a browsable point-connected map
03:31:28 <TeruFSX> i think i'll look somewhere more appropriate
03:31:57 <madbr> only know sound stuff, not AI
03:37:03 <elliott> TeruFSX: Can't you just use A* :P
03:44:27 * tswett attempts to rip the music that was definitely written by Gregor and not by somebody else.
03:48:08 <madbr> gregor writes music? :D
03:51:09 <tswett> Gregor definitely writes music, such as the acclaimed Opus 11, as well as such pieces as Opus 10 and Opus 13.
03:52:01 <elliott> Implying 11 is better than 13.
03:52:04 <elliott> (Okay, I don't remember 11.)
03:52:22 <tswett> Opus 11 is one of the best thousand songs I've ever heard.
03:52:38 <tswett> Opus 11 is . . . the best thousand songs I've ever heard.
03:52:41 <madbr> aha he uses opus numbers :o
03:52:49 <elliott> tswett: That's a pretty low standard.
03:53:16 <zzo38> If you don't know what else to call it, you use opus numbers, isn't it?
03:53:26 <shachaf> Instead of taking the telephone booth, kill the player.
03:53:34 <tswett> As far as play counts go, Opus 11 is tied for... 252nd.
03:53:47 <tswett> Say, what's that one song?
03:53:48 <madbr> zzo: why not filenames :D
03:54:03 <tswett> That goes da (da-da-da) da (da da) da (da-da-da) da (da da) and so on?
03:54:15 <zzo38> madbr: But you would still need to decide something such as filenames too
03:54:29 <tswett> Oh right, "Hardlyquin".
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03:56:19 <madbr> dunno about his "electronic music", his piano stuff is nice tho yeah :D
03:56:43 * tswett looks at the songs he has played 19 times.
03:56:48 <tswett> Yes, all of these songs are exactly equally good.
03:58:40 <madbr> hmm yeah the solo piano stuff is a lot better :D
03:59:09 <madbr> weird, I thought when you could compose well for one you could do it for the other... oh well :D
04:05:07 <madbr> anyone else composes in here? :D
04:05:34 <zzo38> madbr: I have written some music in QBASIC
04:10:10 <madbr> wonder what my music would look transcribed
04:10:22 <madbr> probably hard to play stuff with jumps all over the place :D
04:19:37 <cheater__> the mind revealing itself to itself
04:20:22 <madbr> well, no it's just that it's composed to sound good on computer, not be easy to play :3
04:20:28 <madbr> so often it's kinda fast etc
04:23:05 <zzo38> Yes, also ZZT, but also QBASIC. Some music I have written is in Bohlen-Pierce I wrote a subroutine for QBASIC called "PlayBP" which is like the built-in PLAY but with Bohlen-Pierce notes
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04:26:11 <zzo38> WriterT (Product (Ratio Integer)) [] is one way to represent a probability distribution in Haskell, I would think!! (You can then sort and combine and whatever else, afterward)
04:30:15 <ion> Derptal 2 http://imgur.com/a/x9qTF
04:31:35 <zzo38> For doing the macro expansion in WizardCard I have decided this might work: type Expander = StateT [Declaration] []; How well do you think? (It would sometimes have multiple possible expansions, some of which may eventually fail; and is also possible for macros to add new declarations)
04:32:05 <zzo38> (And to read other declarations, affect declaration in other ways too, etc)
04:36:48 <zzo38> Do you know if Pascal compiler to target LLVM exists?
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05:06:40 <oklopol> "madbr so often it's kinda fast etc" how fast?
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05:09:38 <elliott> DID U KNO THAT IN C ARRAYS ARE POINTERS. ALSO I = I++ + I++ CAUSES I TO BECOME 4
05:09:50 <elliott> WELKOM TO INFORMATION SUPERHEIGHWAY
05:09:52 <fizzie> No matter what I's previous value was.
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05:10:32 <elliott> Actually I just realise now that 4 is a plausible result if i starts as 0 there. :(
05:11:38 <shachaf> But arrays aren't pointers. :-(
05:11:39 <fizzie> Any result is plausible for a sufficiently flexible 'plausible'.
05:12:15 <elliott> i = i++ + i++; /* i becomes a picture of a dog */
05:12:52 <fizzie> Maybe a sizeof(i)*CHAR_BIT-pixel black-and-white dog.
05:13:03 <fizzie> Gah, I put in parentheses there. :(
05:13:14 <fizzie> I meant to say (sizeof i)*CHAR_BIT, I think.
05:13:34 <elliott> fizzie: No, it doesn't become a numerical representation of a picture of a dog.
05:13:36 <elliott> It becomes a picture of a dog.
05:13:48 <elliott> printf("%d\n", i); /* prints a picture of a dog to the screen */
05:13:52 <elliott> Even on text-only displays.
05:14:19 <shachaf> Did I mention I got *TWO* responses from Knuth about my email?
05:14:51 <fizzie> Were the responses saying completely opposite things? If so, that does perhaps not bode well for further volumes.
05:15:20 <shachaf> Also one was handwritten, the other emailed.
05:26:32 <zzo38> Do you know God is a crazy woman? I don't.
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05:37:57 <ion> https://twitter.com/#!/Marinmenyo/status/200628420789547010/photo/1
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06:55:17 <Sgeo> Has PH been online at all recently?
06:58:51 <ion> elliott: Do you pronounce “via a” (as in “via a connection”) as “viaRa”?
07:00:39 <ion> That’s what i thought, but in Look Around You the guy pronounces it like that and when i asked another British guy about it (some years ago) he confirmed that’s how it’s pronounced. Also, wouldn’t using a pause sound something like “viatta” to a Brit?
07:02:17 <elliott> monqy: this would be a good learndb entry for me <elliptic> why are 10 people watching elliott die to a beetle
07:02:38 <monqy> maybe Sgeo will add it
07:03:17 <Sgeo> elliott, when will you get W:A working?
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07:14:10 <zzo38> Are there some program with some features of Astrolog and other programs, can also plot the International Space Station's coordinates, and coordinates of camera satellites (such as Google Earth), set camera angles of objects, set various other parameters, etc. Another possible feature would be dynamic orb angles based on apparent diameters and other things
07:21:34 <fizzie> The "Stellarium" program has a satellite plugin (including ISS) that knows how to calculate the coordinates, but Stellarium itself is more of a "look at the sky" program than "calculate things about the sky" one. (And I doubt there really are any "Google Earth" satellites; I'd suppose there's at least two levels of companies between Google and the satellites.)
07:21:58 <fizzie> Anyway, celestrak.com is about tracking satellite positions, I think they've got some software links too.
07:22:13 <fizzie> (That's where Stellarium's plugin gets its information from.)
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07:31:31 <zzo38> Astrolog is missing a few report formats (one thing missing certainly is that although it can print calendars; it lacks the feature to include any data on the calendars), but it does do many things that other programs don't have. Just a similar program but with other features too, as well as the way to combine them, would help.
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07:32:15 <zzo38> fizzie: Do you have the satellite positions on your computer?
07:33:19 <zzo38> Do you know what the coordinates of ISS are?
07:39:39 <ion> elliott: 03:13 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5867126092237181778
07:39:41 <ion> elliott: 02:16 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6229002293145728844
07:47:02 <elliott> monqy: do you want to hear jokes
07:47:56 <ion> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
07:48:06 <ion> @@ @echo @echo @echo HA
07:48:06 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "ion!ion@heh.fi", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@@ @echo @echo @echo HA"]} rest:"echo; msg:
07:48:06 <lambdabot> IrcMessage {msgServer = \"freenode\", msgLBName = \"lambdabot\", msgPrefix = \"ion!ion@heh.fi\", msgCommand = \"PRIVMSG\", msgParams = [\"#esoteric\",\":@@ @echo @echo @echo HA\"]} rest:\"echo; msg:
07:48:06 <lambdabot> IrcMessage {msgServer = \\\"freenode\\\", msgLBName = \\\"lambdabot\\\", msgPrefix = \\\"ion!ion@heh.fi\\\", msgCommand = \\\"PRIVMSG\\\", msgParams = [\\\"#esoteric\\\",\\\":@@ @echo @echo @echo HA\
07:49:15 <ion> zzo38: Does the International Space Station affect your luck in romance or gambling?
07:49:51 <zzo38> ion: Not unless you are betting on or marrying someone living there.
07:50:37 <ion> depending on what its position was at the point you moved from the inside of the womb to the outside.
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07:51:27 <zzo38> ion: In that case, I highly doubt it.
07:52:03 <zzo38> (At first I thought you meant the current date/time; which is what my first answer was based on)
07:52:03 <ion> Ah, it’s excluded from the list of objects in the sky behave like that?
07:53:23 <ion> elliott: Any comments about the pronunciation in the videos?
07:53:31 <zzo38> No objects in the sky behave like that, as far as I am concerned. But if you like to do so, you can assign what they mean to you according to synchronicity (the subjective grouping of events; as opposed to causality which is the objective grouping) if you have nothing else to do.
07:54:26 <ion> zzo38: I was just wondering what Astrolog would do with the location of ISS.
07:54:38 <elliott> monqy: Have you played 4.1?
07:55:01 <ion> I’m plortal 2.
07:55:04 <zzo38> But there is possibly the case of indirect effects from whatever, possibly psychological effect from superstition, possibly lighting conditions, and once the king was scared to death by an eclipse, so such things are not completely impossible.
07:55:51 <zzo38> ion: Well, it would simply plot its location on whatever reports you want. Interpretation text could be given too; but you would probably not use the ISS in interpretation reports.
07:55:54 <monqy> not gotten very far
07:56:45 <zzo38> (Astrolog does allow full customization of interpretation texts, so it is possible someone might do something with that)
08:01:07 <itidus22> "I now know what this world is missing. There needs to be some sort of natural law whereby anyone who writes a substantial amount of crap eventually dies in fires started by their own software."
08:01:14 <elliott> monqy: what are you writing a denotational semantics for :o
08:01:28 <zzo38> For example, on the astro-graph you could plot its position above the Earth on a map of the world, on the horizon view you can determine its azimuth/altitude, and on the horoscope you can plot its ecliptic longitude, and there are many other reports available too.
08:01:57 <monqy> nothing!!! i'm not writing a denotational semantics i'm near falling asleep. if i was writing a denotational semantics though it would be a secret
08:02:09 <elliott> monqy: i don't like secrets!!!
08:02:34 <elliott> monqy: it'll gnaw at me!!!
08:02:44 <elliott> it's hurting with pain monqy
08:02:57 <monqy> more pain: i've already written small-step and big-step operational semantics for it
08:03:02 <monqy> more pain: by written i mean in coq
08:03:36 <elliott> is it your language you're going to write your roguelike in
08:03:47 <elliott> what!!! literally impossible
08:04:21 <elliott> monqy: but what IS it!!!!!
08:04:37 <elliott> monqy: when will it stop being secret
08:04:43 <monqy> it will never stop
08:04:54 <monqy> unless you like stalk me and find my name on a paper or something idk
08:05:13 <elliott> can you feel the tears inside my eyes
08:05:14 <monqy> my name isn't on any papers yet don't even try
08:07:05 <monqy> it's not even my own project
08:07:26 <monqy> "universety researche"
08:07:36 <elliott> it does not help the gnaweing!!!
08:08:40 <zzo38> "It is the test of a good religion whether you can joke about it." - GK Chesterton
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09:04:49 <elliott> monqy: this game is so much better than dcss wow
09:04:57 <Sgeo> elliott, which game?
09:05:10 <elliott> Sgeo: linley's dungeon crawl 4.1 alpha
09:05:19 <elliott> which caused dcss to exist
09:05:22 <elliott> (and never got out of alpha)
09:05:54 <Taneb> Still haven't got my laptop working
09:09:16 <kmc> what's wrong
09:10:59 <elliott> it's not grub that's messed up
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09:11:49 <Taneb> elliott, I can still access my files when I boot from USB
09:15:45 <elliott> it might be fairly easy to repair then
09:15:53 <elliott> catch me when i'm not watching monqy play 4.1
09:15:57 <elliott> and i'll try to help you fix it
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09:30:37 <elliott> monqy: you have to admit, it's more fun than dcss!!!
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09:35:39 <Taneb> elliott: can I catch you now?
09:35:52 <elliott> do you have a linux livecd
09:38:35 <itidus22> A mute character will communicate with hand-held wooden signs on which are scrawled his comments and questions.
09:38:47 <itidus22> Flipping the sign will often display additional messages often more than the two one would expect from a simple two-sided object.
09:39:05 <Lumpio-> The signs are 4-dimensional
09:39:49 <itidus22> ah so its a 4 dimensional rotation?
09:39:57 <kmc> like this http://achewood.com/index.php?date=11092005
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09:41:32 <Taneb> elliott, I'm chatting using it
09:42:01 <elliott> Taneb: ok do you have the linux partition mounted
09:43:10 <itidus22> kmc: that's certainly a quick reply.
09:44:31 <elliott> ok, close that terminal; install the Boot-Repair program instead (through the package manager)
09:44:34 <elliott> then click "Recommended repair"
09:44:36 <elliott> that should automate the grub reinstall
09:44:48 <elliott> oh, it might not be available in the main repos
09:44:51 <elliott> try opening a terminal and
09:44:55 <elliott> sudo add-apt-repository ppa:yannubuntu/boot-repair && sudo apt-get update
09:44:59 <elliott> sudo apt-get install boot-repair
09:45:21 <elliott> write down the URL it gives after it repairs it
09:45:29 <elliott> I think it has information about your system that could be used if it doesn't work
09:46:59 <Taneb> It's got stuck at Reading Package List... 90%
09:47:54 <Taneb> Just changed to 91%
09:47:57 <kmc> itidus22: ?
09:48:16 <Taneb> Nevermind, it's completed
09:49:24 <Taneb> Just ran out of space?
09:49:40 <elliott> you _did_ do it in another terminal, right?
09:50:04 <elliott> ok show me the exact error please
09:50:26 <itidus22> kmc: it took like 1min 10sec after i first mentioned strange flipping signs before you posted the comic reference
09:50:48 <Taneb> dpkg: error: failed to link '/var/lib/dpkg/available' to '/var/lib/dpkg/available-old' for backup of available database: No space left on device E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (2)
09:51:02 <elliott> and tell me what it outputs
09:51:21 <Taneb> What's your favourite pastebin?
09:51:41 <elliott> mount | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' sprunge.us
09:52:13 <Taneb> Apparantly, I haven't got curl
09:52:34 <elliott> just use hpaste or something :P
09:53:04 <Taneb> http://hpaste.org/68376
09:54:35 <elliott> try rebooting then running the same commands
09:56:03 <elliott> look for the repair program in the menus anyway
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09:59:41 <kmc> itidus22: yes
10:01:42 <kmc> using my power of google search
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10:12:28 <elliott> Hmm, lighting might be inefficient if I do it the way I was going to...
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10:35:50 <Taneb> Well, that didn't work
10:37:58 <elliott> Taneb: Show me the URL? (In /mgs.)
10:38:12 <Taneb> elliott: it didn't work at all
10:38:16 <Taneb> I'm making a fresh live usb
10:38:23 <elliott> Did you mean it ran out of space again?
10:38:30 <elliott> If yes, making a new live medium won't help.
10:39:02 <Taneb> It means I tried to make more space and it went horribly wrong while attempting that
10:39:57 <elliott> Oh, right, USB sticks are mutable.
10:40:03 <elliott> I guess that's why it didn't try to install it to a RAM fs.
10:40:18 <elliott> OK, let me know when you have the new live medium booted.
10:40:49 <elliott> Taneb: You could alternatively download http://sourceforge.net/projects/boot-repair-cd/files/, which has it pre-installed.
10:40:57 <elliott> (And use unetbootin to put it on your USB stick.)
10:41:07 <ion> Finished Portal 2. The ending was brilliant.
10:44:03 <fizzie> Finish the weather game. The ending is tight. And also sweet. Or so I hear.
10:47:03 <fizzie> Also didn't Portal 2's user-generated content steam workshop thing just come out? That doesn't sound very finishable.
10:47:14 <fizzie> Sgeo: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/20
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10:48:23 <Sgeo> ion, did you do the 2-player thing?
10:48:32 <ion> fizzie: The single-player main game, duh. :-P
10:48:42 <ion> sgeo: That’s next in TODO. :-)
10:49:36 <fizzie> At least the actual playthrough part. In my case, locating a second player did.
10:50:33 <Sgeo> Played through a bit with a random
10:50:40 <Sgeo> Played through most of it with a friend
10:52:26 <fizzie> Played through it with the built-in voice thing, and got some comments about how nonsensical it sounds to a third-party observer who's not watching the screen, just having to listen to (one side) of the speaking.
10:55:35 <fizzie> I don't suppose Perpetual Testing Initiative supports the making of coooopy test chambers?
10:57:02 <kmc> portal 2 co-op is one of the most mentally taxing video game experiences i've had
10:58:02 <kmc> you have to coordinate motor skills, spatial reasoning, abstract problem solving, and communicating with another person
10:58:22 <kmc> you have to like make up words to describe the stuff in the level so you can coordinate
10:59:44 <fizzie> I don't know, I think it went along quite naturally. I suppose it might depend somewhat on the another person, though.
11:02:39 <cheater_> kmc did you get lisztomania yet
11:03:01 <kmc> fizzie: i was kinda drunk too
11:04:17 <fizzie> I see there's 39690 entries in the thing already, and it's been out, what, three days?
11:05:01 <fizzie> Portal 2's community-generated-map steam-workshop thing.
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11:10:17 <Taneb> elliott, installed the ISO on the USB
11:10:28 <elliott> OK, boot it and use boot-repair.
11:10:53 <elliott> (It might end up downgrading GRUB, but that'll get fixed the next time Ubuntu updates it.)
11:14:26 <Taneb> Okay, I can't get wifi, it seems
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11:16:40 <Taneb> It needs internet to run the thingy
11:16:41 <fizzie> The red component of the diffuse reflection color.
11:17:00 <elliott> Taneb: Well... try the Ubuntu live medium again.
11:17:02 <Taneb> So, I've plugged in an ethernet cable
11:17:47 <Taneb> It seems to be working
11:19:25 <Taneb> Together we're invincible
11:21:21 <Taneb> Let's see if this works
11:21:59 <Taneb> Thank you elliott!
11:22:15 <elliott> Congraetulationse and yuoruea welcomae
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11:28:56 <ion> elliott: Any comments about the pronunciation in the videos?
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11:29:08 <ion> I’m curious about the R thing. :-)
11:29:15 <elliott> ion: I still didn't click them (and probably can't be bothered to unless you relink).
11:29:50 <ion> 03:13 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5867126092237181778
11:29:53 <ion> 02:16 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6229002293145728844
11:30:49 <elliott> ion: Ah, the "viaRa" thing.
11:31:06 <elliott> I think you'll find that were the narrator to end a sentence with "via", it would sound the same (with the perceived "r").
11:31:33 <elliott> I'm not sure exactly what's going on there -- you'd have to ask a linguist -- but the "r" seems rather implicit.
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11:32:00 <elliott> As in, it's not really there, it's just the two sounds adjacent to each other that end up bridged by one.
11:32:16 <elliott> (You realise Look Around You is on YouTube, right?)
11:32:47 <elliott> Yeah, it's definitely a quirk of the (deliberately exaggerated) accent.
11:33:22 <ion> I just clicked on the first video results for my search terms, they happened to be at video.google.com. :-)
11:34:24 <ion> augur: <elliott> Ask augur. :p
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11:36:18 <elliott> :''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''(
11:36:27 <ion> elliott: You are beautiful.
11:36:39 <elliott> :'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
11:36:39 <elliott> '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''(
11:37:06 <Taneb> elliott, if I could comment on your beauty, the universe would explode
11:37:16 <ion> elliott: You should prefix that with @@ @echo @echo @echo @echo
11:37:25 <elliott> @@ @echo @echo @echo @echo hjålp
11:37:25 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@@ @echo @echo @echo @
11:37:25 <lambdabot> echo hj\195\165lp"]} rest:"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \"freenode\", msgLBName = \"lambdabot\", msgPrefix = \"elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott\", msgCommand = \"PRIVMSG\", msgParams = [\"#
11:37:25 <lambdabot> esoteric\",\":@@ @echo @echo @echo @echo hj\\195\\165lp\"]} rest:\"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \\\"freenode\\\", msgLBName = \\\"lambdabot\\\", msgPrefix = \\\"elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/
11:37:25 <lambdabot> elliott\\\", msgCommand = \\\"PRIVMSG\\\", msgParams = [\\\"#esoteric\\\",\\\":@@ @echo @echo @echo @echo hj\\\\195\\\\165lp\\\"]} rest:\\\"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \\\\\\\"freenode\\\\\\\",
11:37:25 <lambdabot> msgLBName = \\\\\\\"lambdabot\\\\\\\", msgPrefix = \\\\\\\"elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott\\\\\\\", msgCommand = \\\\\\\"PRIVMSG\\\\\\\", msgParams = [\\\\\\\"#esoteric\\\\\\\",\\\\\\\":@@ @
11:37:27 <lambdabot> echo @echo @echo @echo hj\\\\\\\\195\\\\\\\\165lp\\\\\\\"]} rest:\\\\\\\"hj\\\\\\\\195\\\\\\\\165lp\\\\\\\"\\\"\""
11:37:45 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo foo"]}
11:38:04 <elliott> I wonder if saying @print-notices in public would have lambdabot leak @tells to the channel, or if it has prevention against that.
11:38:09 <elliott> (Not that I'm going to test.)
11:38:28 <Taneb> You could test it in a private channel?
11:38:37 <elliott> Well, I'd have to make lambdabot join it.
11:39:07 <kmc> lambdabot: y u so racist
11:39:15 <kmc> escaping non-ascii characters like they're second-class citizens
11:39:21 <ion> You can also “@time” any channel lambdabot is on (and any other channel without +n).
11:40:01 <elliott> Answer: yes, @print-notices works in public.
11:40:11 <elliott> Unless it has a special case for channels with only one person in them!!!!
11:40:45 <elliott> (That felt too scary to even risk a space in front of.)
11:41:52 <kmc> i'm watching british TV from a youtube video which was captured by a screengrab program from the channel4.com website flash player
11:41:57 <kmc> hooray computers
11:42:16 <elliott> I have the Look Around You DVDs.
11:42:26 <elliott> Maybe I should upload them to YouTube in HIGH-DEFINITION. :p
11:42:32 <elliott> (I assume that's what kmc's watching, given the context, but maybe not.)
11:42:36 <elliott> Wait, Look Around You is BBC.
11:42:44 <elliott> My country is complicated. : (
11:43:05 <ion> I should get the LAY DVDs, too.
11:43:20 <ion> hjälp sounds Swedish.
11:43:25 <elliott> hjålp looks funnier, though.
11:43:41 -!- elliott has set topic: hjålp http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
11:43:43 <ion> Hjålp would be pronounced hjolp.
11:44:08 <kmc> elliott: no, I'm watching Peep Show
11:44:10 <Taneb> With a hard j or a soft j?
11:44:32 <fizzie> "Look Around Your DVDs", the show about how to keep your DVD collection in order.
11:44:32 <ion> taneb: As in “yes”, i think.
11:44:57 <kmc> http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity512.html
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11:53:06 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL60DDD0F77698B8EB
11:53:37 <ion> Meanwhile in the 2370s https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/542294_467069256642918_122908054392375_2060207_456662483_n.jpg
11:53:41 <elliott> SimonRC: Hey, you haven't said a single thing in 2012.
11:54:46 <ion> elliott: He has spoken twice via HackEgo.
11:55:17 <fizzie> Is that like when you contact the dead via a medium?
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11:58:30 <elliott> Taneb: More like Benat, rightt?
11:58:48 <Taneb> Oh god how did you know
11:59:57 <Taneb> "Taneb" is a reversal of a portmanteau of contractions of my and my brother's names
12:00:23 <elliott> Oh, is the "nat" for "Nathan"?
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12:01:51 <HackEgo> _niels: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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12:04:52 <elliott> > let fibs = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in fibs
12:04:53 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
12:05:08 <elliott> How can you recognise lambdabot and give up on #esoteric that quickly?
12:06:08 <elliott> fizzie: Please fix fungot's Unicode support. It's not that hard. :(
12:06:08 <fungot> elliott: i haven't looked. :p " nanotechnology" " i want")
12:08:32 <Taneb> Install skype, recieve call on skype, skype freezes
12:11:50 <fizzie> I suppose I should, since it'd just be a single preprocessing step thingie, since the fungespace cells are quite capable of holding any codepoints.
12:12:41 <fizzie> On the other hand, is hjĥlp really so bad?
12:14:04 <elliott> It has completely ruined the purity of the hjålp.
12:14:23 <elliott> (Technically I must note that it'd also be a postprocessing step thingy.)
12:14:27 <elliott> But think how much more useful ^ord would become!
12:15:50 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
12:16:04 <elliott> fizzie: Where's the read loop. :(
12:16:22 <fizzie> Line 56 does the main read.
12:16:41 <fizzie> Though I suppose it could as well go into the bit where it has extracted a full line out.
12:17:08 <elliott> fizzie: Would that work for: UNICODE USERNAMES?
12:17:24 <elliott> I suppose I could iterate over all of them or something.
12:17:33 <elliott> But it seems like it'd be easier to just turn one string into one string.
12:18:01 <fizzie> It's still turning just one string into one string when you do it after it's extracted a single line, before it gets split into fields.
12:18:44 <fizzie> That'd be around line 73; the parts below it expect there to be a single complete line somewhere.
12:19:00 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, I see what you mean.
12:19:06 <elliott> Why would it be better to do it there, out of curiosity?
12:19:16 <elliott> (Also would this break the ^bf interpreter's input?)
12:19:57 <fizzie> I suppose the only reason why it'd be better to do it after line-splitting (as opposed to immediately after the R) is that you wouldn't have to deal with incomplete UTF-8 sequences.
12:21:17 <fizzie> At line 73, there's a single full line on fungespace line 3 that could be deutfied. (Based on the fact that the prefix-looking bit starts with 03g':-.)
12:21:54 <fizzie> You know, Y=3, X=0, 1, 2, ... and so on.
12:22:12 <elliott> Wouldn't that be fungespace line 73?
12:22:14 <elliott> (But that ^bf thing still worries me.)
12:22:48 <fizzie> No, I mean, the data is stored on "physical" Y-coordinate 3.
12:23:08 <elliott> Ah, you mean the line itself?
12:23:19 <elliott> Where's output done? (And what about bf?!?!?!)
12:24:54 <fizzie> I guess you'd need to do something w.r.t. ^bf, yes. I'm not entirely sure what. All the current programs are written in the "one cell, one character" logic.
12:25:11 <elliott> Hmm, I suppose that's actually what you want, if you want things like ^rainbow to work.
12:25:15 <elliott> But OTOH, that would break the 8-bitness of it.
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12:25:33 <fizzie> Right. Though I'm not sure if there's anything that really depends on the 8-bit wrapping.
12:25:47 <fizzie> In the existing programs people have used, that is.
12:25:54 <elliott> Well, it's still nice to have, considering it's the only usable BF interpreter in the channel.
12:26:03 <elliott> I suppose I could just fix ^rainbow itself.
12:26:14 <elliott> But knowing how many characters to wait before changing to the next colour in BF sounds... painful.
12:26:19 <elliott> BF doesn't exactly have bitwise and.
12:26:45 <fizzie> That is a true statement.
12:29:40 <fizzie> As for output, it's slightly more complicated. There are in fact several places that write to the socket.
12:29:57 <elliott> fungot is rather badly-designed!
12:29:57 <fungot> elliott: so do we still lack that thing anyway.
12:30:02 <fungot> elliott: there's not much point. its always visible. only that too bloated is far better, qdb is inexplicably beating it in times.
12:30:13 <elliott> fungot: You're always visible?
12:30:14 <fungot> elliott: pygments is great. i cannot find -the- implementation for my first time here, can i make http://paste.phpfi.com/ fnord ( looks like we gonna have fun
12:30:15 <fizzie> Too bloated is far better, yes.
12:30:36 <elliott> fungot: You apparently can't make it, since that pastebin seems to have died. Are we really gonna have fun?
12:30:43 <elliott> fizzie: That wasn't 5 lines.
12:31:00 <fizzie> It's supposed to be four, I think. But it wasn't four either.
12:31:18 <fizzie> Maybe you had some leftovers from a previous discussion.
12:31:31 <elliott> fizzie: Make it speak to me. :(
12:31:38 <fizzie> fungot: Speak to elliott.
12:31:38 <fungot> fizzie: it doesn't seem to support define-syntax? ( beyond the obvious mere existence of c code)
12:31:47 <fizzie> elliott: Do you support define-syntax?
12:31:59 <fizzie> fungot: You were right.
12:31:59 <fungot> fizzie: multithreading is of course more productive in scheme, avoid set!, how would you fnord it? you can tell
12:32:03 <elliott> fungot: The mere existence of C code isn't obvious to me! Sent from my @puter
12:32:03 <fungot> elliott: what scheme system? probably. it'll be crazy and do your own thing" language. but to use a us keyboard mapping
12:32:25 <elliott> fungot: No, not Scheme; @lang. It is, indeed, a "crazy and does my own thing" language.
12:32:25 <fungot> elliott: well, maybe i need to
12:32:26 <fizzie> It's much about Scheme today.
12:32:33 <elliott> fungot: Use @? Yes, you should. It's perfect.
12:32:33 <fungot> elliott: you know c++? with templates? its just some number of continuations, though,
12:32:49 <elliott> fungot: No! It's nothing like C++, and templates are an abomination! And what do continuations have to do with this?
12:32:49 <fungot> elliott: it will work. i'll be here all week. try the --large command-line option.
12:33:07 <fizzie> fungot: You're such a silly.
12:33:07 <fungot> fizzie: ' you have to go
12:33:15 <elliott> fungot: Rebelling against your maker, are we?
12:33:15 <fungot> elliott: i am in error, by the way,
12:33:26 <elliott> fungot: Sounds like you're having a breakdown.
12:33:26 <fungot> elliott: mm-hmm. openbsd does some tricky under-the-hood trickery ( not quite, sorry. :p
12:33:28 <fizzie> In fact it was correct, I *do* have to go.
12:33:39 <elliott> fungot: The trickery is tricky? Astonishing.
12:33:39 <fungot> elliott: you, sir)) to use set! anywhere else?
12:33:46 <elliott> fizzie: I think he's going to mutate you.
12:33:52 <fungot> elliott: please input two numbers to get the hostesses released! give them their own lines produces ugly output.) also, did you know
12:34:06 <elliott> fizzie: Don't worry, you're free now.
12:34:23 <fizzie> fungot: You're so irrational.
12:34:23 <fungot> fizzie: are you a student or professional? " i don't really understand what and how you can interpret it as " the wire"
12:34:41 <elliott> fungot: Well, he doesn't study, and he's not professional.
12:34:42 <fungot> elliott: recruit them for me even in rlwrap ( ie doesn't quit)
12:34:50 <elliott> fungot: You still want to recruit him knowing that?
12:34:50 <fungot> elliott: so the point is that bill richter interprets incorrectly and out of it.
12:35:03 <fungot> elliott: it ran... i ran upon a problem and found that 99% of them would not be useful
12:35:09 <fizzie> fungot: Technically speaking I guess I am a student. I have a study right and all, I just enrolled the other day.
12:35:10 <fungot> fizzie: i may be imagining others, though, by about 12% of the us, too.
12:35:12 <elliott> fungot: It's true, most problems aren't very useful at all.
12:35:12 <fungot> elliott: don't you have more than one? the interactive fiction language?
12:35:30 <elliott> fungot: There are... multiple languages for writing interactive fiction in, yes.
12:35:30 <fungot> elliott: fnord/ fnord/ fnord question 2. polecat, fnord, fnord
12:35:31 <fizzie> Okay, I have to be going out now to see a man about a horse. (Well, no. But anyway.)
12:35:36 <fungot> elliott: that's a bit more complex, but i think most scheme-c compilers compile for something that isn't c or bash :) ( there's also a function plotter, if i remember
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12:53:25 <kmc> cheater_: yeah i eat steak
12:53:31 <kmc> once i cooked a steak sous vide
12:53:32 <kmc> it was great
12:56:42 <kmc> do u know how sous vide works cheater_
12:57:13 <itidus22> as a poor diabetic, the things i crave most of all are fried potato chips and various kinds of kfc chicken pieces
12:58:06 <itidus22> also.. false teeth like movie stars have which are like screwon
12:59:28 <Taneb> Well, the creator of Fortress Craft has replied to TWICE as many tweets of mine as the creator of Minecraft
12:59:34 <Taneb> Clearly the former is a superior game
13:00:04 <cheater_> kmc: i have never tried, but i should
13:00:44 <kmc> i did it with minimal equipment
13:00:50 <kmc> just a pot of water, a ziploc bag, and a candy thermometer
13:01:30 <elliott> Taneb: Hmm, DjArcas. Is that the loudmouthed moron they got to promote that thing?
13:01:41 <elliott> But I think it started with "Dj".
13:01:46 <kmc> the next step up is a beer cooler
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13:02:27 <Taneb> elliott, I believe he's also the creator
13:02:28 <cheater_> i don't have a candy thermometer, why do you need that specifically?
13:02:40 <cheater_> the steak i cooked today was amazing
13:02:47 <cheater_> it was like flesh-flavoured candy
13:03:02 <elliott> All I remember is reports of him flipping out and calling people gay at the slightest provocation.
13:03:46 <cheater_> i fried it in french orange mustard (nearly like jam/jelly), with red peppers and ginger, and some italian mustard apples
13:03:49 <elliott> ("The slightest provocation" being "people saying they don't like FortressCraft".)
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13:05:39 <Taneb> Sounds like him, yeah
13:09:31 <itidus22> i probably would have bought minecraft if i had online money..
13:09:34 <elliott> (For bad values of "better".)
13:09:38 <elliott> (Especially if you use Painterly on the Minecraft side.)
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13:10:15 <itidus22> which is not something i enjoy thinking about today because i just gave my mum all my money, and apparently have to visit both my grandmas for mothers day
13:11:24 <itidus22> and in the back of my mind with games like this im always telling myself i could do this better, and i could be richer from this, if only i was the one who did it
13:13:37 <itidus22> and why are 500% more people registering at minecraft.net than buying the game!?!
13:17:04 <kmc> cheater_: you need a thermometer because the point of sous vide is to keep the meat at a constant temperature for a long time
13:17:08 <kmc> so that the inside reaches that temperature
13:17:56 <kmc> it doesn't need to be a candy thermometer specifically
13:18:27 <kmc> but you want like a couple °F precision, in the range 130°F to 140°F
13:18:44 <kmc> cheap candy thermometer has these properties and can be found in a regular grocery store
13:20:35 <itidus22> my life sucks in a first world problems kind of way. if only i could exploit the problems in my life for capitalist gain.
13:21:47 <cheater_> i bet you could arduino a sous vide automat
13:22:55 <cheater_> i'll totally do it once i can buy a power relay
13:23:42 <kmc> relay is easy, you probably want feedback though
13:23:57 <cheater_> the feedback is the thermometer
13:24:21 <kmc> i tried to build a temperature controller for another project but i fried the thermocouple driver chip due to failure to read datasheet
13:24:24 <kmc> however it's not hard in principle
13:24:58 <cheater_> could this be my unique chance to do something useful with a PID
13:25:21 <kmc> that was for soldering oven temperatures and so a thermocouple was probably the right answer
13:25:21 <itidus22> wonders if fried the thermocouple almost counts as a pun in the topic of cooking
13:25:42 <cheater_> http://arduino.cc/playground/Code/PIDLibrary
13:26:02 <cheater_> yeah, i can create a sous vide visualization
13:26:09 <kmc> for sous vide temperatures you could use a 1-wire temperature sensor like DS18B20
13:26:14 <cheater_> and veejay it to remote places via direct isdn uplink
13:26:29 <kmc> even on sparkfun it's only $10 in a sealed package: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/11050
13:26:29 <cheater_> how do you know so much about electronics kmc
13:27:17 <kmc> and that will interface directly to any microcontroller
13:27:21 <kmc> i should do this
13:27:27 <kmc> i already have the heating element too
13:27:37 <kmc> i was dreading it because i forgot it would be much easier than the thermocouple thing
13:27:40 <cheater_> why not make it work with a hotplate
13:28:11 <kmc> hm this one suggests a rice cooker
13:28:27 <cheater_> hotplate is easier, because more people have one and it's cheap and small
13:28:51 <kmc> rice cooker is too small to hold multiple large steaks
13:28:54 <cheater_> a rice cooker is a fairly specific utensil you normally don't have
13:28:59 <kmc> i think i'll go for the beer cooler with the heating element i already have
13:29:10 <cheater_> that too, i was just going to say you could just use a big pot
13:29:11 <kmc> which won't be enough to get it up to temp
13:29:21 <kmc> but should keep it at temp
13:29:25 <kmc> so i will just fill it with hot water to start
13:29:52 <cheater_> from experience, heating stuff is a thing that either works or doesn't
13:29:55 <kmc> i don't know if "beer cooler" is the right term
13:30:06 <kmc> i mean like those insulated plastic bins you pack with ice and beer
13:30:10 <cheater_> there's no way to "give it a shove"
13:30:46 <kmc> something like this http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1342596&cp=11925755.2614192
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13:32:04 <cheater_> or yeah, just Rubbermaid® Victory Cooler
13:32:18 <cheater_> hey kmc, what do u think of my idea
13:32:31 <cheater_> i was looking at alsa paints last night when i couldn't sleep
13:32:36 <cheater_> and i noticed they have a rubberizing paint
13:32:44 <cheater_> so: keyboard with rubberized keycaps?
13:33:17 <kmc> i would have to try it cheater
13:33:49 <cheater_> but like, rubberized knobs on equipment are the dog's bollocks
13:34:09 <cheater_> and they use this paint for cutlery and other daily use stuff, so it's not something that'll wear off
13:34:52 <kmc> these coolers are pretty well insulated so I think a small heater should suffice to maintain temperature
13:35:22 <kmc> i wish they had ratings in watts per kelvin or whatever
13:35:42 <cheater_> notice "pretty well insulated" still means if you have ice in it then it'll melt fairly quickly
13:35:59 <cheater_> you'd need a heater which can at least withstand the amount of energy being expelled
13:36:22 <cheater_> which is probably very near to the heater that you need to heat it up in the first place
13:36:31 <cheater_> why not just buy a 10 bucks hotplate?
13:36:53 <cheater_> sounds like the rational choice
13:36:56 <kmc> i don't see how that follows cheater
13:37:00 <cheater_> in fact, we should write an article on rationalwiki
13:37:16 <cheater_> which part can you not see the logical sequence of, kmc?
13:37:47 <kmc> getting a bunch of water from 23°C to 57°C in an acceptable amount of time will take a much larger heater than keeping it at 57° in an insulated container
13:37:55 -!- elliott has left.
13:39:04 <kmc> i'm gonna run the numbers, one sec
13:39:29 <cheater_> but how can you measure the amount of heat being lost through the insulation?
13:39:42 <kmc> i will approximate it by the thermal conductivity of styrofoam
13:40:21 <cheater_> if you have the area and thickness
13:40:31 <cheater_> although the edges will be less conductive
13:42:16 <kmc> let's say a cube 30 cm on a side with 3 cm styrofoam insulation
13:42:56 <kmc> that's 0.54 m² surface area
13:43:45 <kmc> thermal conductivity of styrofoam is 0.03 W / (K * m) according to A Website
13:44:09 <kmc> 0.03 W / (K * m) * 0.54 m² / 3 cm * (57 - 23) K
13:44:14 <kmc> = 18 watts
13:44:46 <cheater_> is your heating element 18 watts
13:45:20 <kmc> a cheap hotplate is like 800 watts
13:45:32 <kmc> i don't know about my element
13:45:48 <kmc> it's like a small thing you put in a mug of water to make tea
13:46:27 <cheater_> http://www.amazon.com/Travel-Immersion-Water-Heater-Voltage/dp/B000AXS0UE
13:46:33 <cheater_> Heating immersion 125 watt coil quickly heats up water
13:46:44 <cheater_> i am suggesting this is similar to your thing
13:47:03 <cheater_> HOWEVER, you might be in for a problem
13:47:11 <kmc> it says 125 W
13:47:19 <kmc> yes it's exactly like that one
13:47:50 <cheater_> the problem is in normal sous vide cooking, you're heating a hot plate which heats a pot which heats water which heats the meat
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13:48:16 <cheater_> a lot of very sluggish heat capacitance
13:48:29 <cheater_> it works like a low pass filter for heat
13:48:40 <cheater_> here you are heating water directly which heats the meat
13:48:44 <cheater_> you might end up with a pocket of heat
13:48:58 <cheater_> which may or may not be advisable
13:49:32 <kmc> either way, the pot full of water is by far most of the thermal mass
13:49:57 <cheater_> in sous vide you put a pot in a pot
13:50:00 <kmc> so i think this cooler full of water will hold temperature fine
13:50:12 <kmc> might need something to circulate the water though
13:50:16 <kmc> cheater_: not necessarily
13:50:24 <cheater_> yeah i thought you might need the circulation
13:50:25 <kmc> you put food inside a bag inside a water bath
13:50:30 <cheater_> so have you ever made sous vide before?
13:50:37 <kmc> i did sous vide steak twice
13:50:44 <kmc> it was delicious
13:50:56 <kmc> i did like 135°F for an hour
13:51:17 <kmc> it's just a foolproof way to get the exact level of rare / well-done you like
13:51:31 <kmc> yeah it's not
13:51:33 <cheater_> i thought the idea was to have it on very long
13:51:38 <kmc> some sous vide recipes are like 24 hours plus
13:51:43 <kmc> but for beef it's not necessary apparently
13:51:45 <cheater_> i cooked steaks in a pot for an hour
13:51:48 <kmc> you just need to get the inside up to temperature
13:52:21 <kmc> i don't know
13:53:09 <kmc> i'm no chef, i can barely cook kraft mac & cheese
13:53:18 <kmc> but the sous vide stuff seemed easy and fun and sciency
13:53:26 <cheater_> yeah, steak comes natural to me too
13:53:36 <cheater_> i go to restaurants and they never make it as good as i do
13:53:40 <kmc> with sous vde steak you do want to fry or grill it briefly
13:53:50 <kmc> to get the outside all burnt & crispy
13:53:58 <cheater_> i bought a steel pan especially for steak
13:54:08 <cheater_> but i wouldn't do this candied steak in it
13:54:19 <kmc> wonder if a crème brûlée torch would work
13:54:22 <cheater_> had to use a tefal pan because you gotta burn the mustard
13:54:48 <cheater_> because the thing has to sear into the meat
13:54:57 <kmc> mostly i fry stuff in cast iron pans
13:55:20 <cheater_> what i did was spread a 4 mm coat of that mustard on the cold pan where the steak would be
13:55:33 <cheater_> i put the steak on that and put the pan on the heat
13:55:41 <cheater_> waited until it started searing
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13:56:43 <cheater_> i applied spices (lots of ginger, it disappears later on, lots of red pepper) and then put the mustard on the top (still raw side)
13:57:05 <cheater_> the first side looked really nice too
13:57:17 <cheater_> you know the mustard is carmelizing when it starts foaming up
13:58:15 <cheater_> the mustard you want isn't the usual sour stuff, it should look like orange jelly, the kind you put on toast, but it tastes tart
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13:59:25 <cheater_> hey kmc do you know the difference between vector and superscalar?
14:05:07 <kmc> in processors?
14:05:30 <kmc> that steak sounds really nice
14:05:50 <cheater_> i did it several times now and it's always better
14:06:09 <cheater_> next time i'll use much more ginger because it was like not there at all
14:07:20 <kmc> ginger is good
14:07:25 <kmc> do you ever cook with szechuan pepper
14:07:47 <cheater_> the one i have is too alkaline
14:07:53 <cheater_> for lack of a better description
14:08:38 <cheater_> have you ever tried long pepper
14:08:48 <cheater_> i've never heard of it until i found it at a christmas fair last year
14:12:19 <cheater_> kmc: apparently ebay has a lot of ready pid controllers
14:12:25 <cheater_> you just search for "temperature kiln"
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14:16:37 <kmc> wow super cheap
14:17:15 <cheater_> what's the cheapest you found?
14:17:25 <kmc> i'll probably build it myself though
14:17:44 <kmc> it should be a super easy build
14:17:58 <kmc> and it would amuse me to have something that plugs into my laptop
14:18:19 <kmc> and a good excuse to learn some basic control theory
14:18:30 <cheater_> yeah the learning is there for me too
14:18:47 <kmc> it would be cool to see the temperature graph with the element on/off indications
14:18:50 <kmc> in realtime
14:19:11 <kmc> http://www.instructables.com/id/Segstick/ here's a fun build project, which includes some PID control
14:19:17 <cheater_> hard realtime or soft realtime
14:19:24 <kmc> lol just soft
14:19:26 <kmc> just for UI
14:19:41 <kmc> cheater_ you niggler
14:28:07 <nortti> ? for some reason I have internationale on my touhou playlist...
14:34:49 <cheater_> and i can already understand some spanish
14:34:54 <cheater_> those languages are closer than i thought
14:35:03 <cheater_> it's not like polish and czech or latvian or russian
14:35:10 <cheater_> which are pretty close themselves
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14:43:32 <qfr> cheater_ Latcvia
14:43:40 <qfr> cheater_ Latvian isn't close to Slavic languages really
14:43:55 <qfr> Did you mean Latvian vs. Lithuanian?"
14:43:57 <qfr> Those are closer
14:51:59 <kmc> cheater_: i might visit baltic states / eastern europe / etc this summer
14:52:03 <kmc> anywhere i should go or avoid?
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14:53:25 <cheater_> unless you will go to jail if you don't go to said baltic states, there's no reason to go there
14:53:43 <cheater_> any amount of illness or misfortune is preferable
14:59:12 <cheater_> kmc: did you figure out if Touch is good or bad yet
15:01:58 <cheater_> http://www.jerkcity.com/_jerkcity4567.html
15:08:19 <kmc> cheater_: it's definitely very bad
15:08:22 <kmc> but also kind of interesting
15:10:57 <kmc> the math / science / philosophy is beyond nonsensical
15:11:01 <kmc> like, i can suspend disbelief
15:11:25 <kmc> i'm not one of those people who will complain because a character says "centrifugal" instead of "centripetal", or that the Linux box looks more like a SunOS 2 machine
15:11:34 <kmc> but this show is really pushing it
15:12:05 <kmc> it's far worse than NUMB3RS
15:12:19 <kmc> it's like the movie Pi except without the good writing or acting or directing
15:13:17 <kmc> a lot of it reminds me of the trailer for The Numberwang Code
15:13:30 <kmc> like this kid writes a 6 on a piece of paper and everyone is like "WHAT DOES IT MEAN?!?!??"
15:13:30 <cheater_> on the other hand Pi was amazing
15:13:51 <kmc> this other guy has a win-big hold 'em poker strategy which is based entirely on him memorizing a short sequence of small numbers
15:13:53 <itidus22> they should really make a fictional film with 100% mathematical and scientific accuracy
15:14:03 <kmc> the same sequence which is also the key to life the universe and everything
15:14:20 <kmc> they also just make other shit up whenever it suits them
15:14:38 <kmc> like they decided that the ISS has regular blackout periods where they can't communicate with earth
15:14:41 <cheater_> have you never had a situation like Pi in your life
15:14:42 <kmc> just because it suits the plot
15:14:55 <cheater_> sitting around in your flat for weeks not going out
15:15:04 <cheater_> then you come out and everyone feels so alien
15:15:12 <cheater_> i think that's what pi is about
15:15:13 <kmc> then you get kidnapped by orthodox jews
15:15:19 <kmc> then you drill your brains out with a power drill and go to heaven
15:15:21 <kmc> yes that's happened to me
15:15:38 <itidus22> cheater_: i have experienced that... but to me it's not just people but the entire environment
15:15:38 <kmc> also one time i was riding the subway and found a bare human brain sitting on the platform
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15:15:47 <cheater_> kmc ok then you know what i mean
15:16:09 <itidus22> yeah i know that feeling... i don't particularly enjoy it
15:16:22 <kmc> ok so what else about Touch
15:16:36 <kmc> they are really unsubtle about the simplistic emotions you are supposed to experience while watching it
15:17:08 <kmc> the dialogue is terrible, a lot of it is just characters saying things they would never realistically say so that the audience is not confused
15:17:21 <cheater_> kmc: sounds like everything i hate about tv series
15:17:35 <itidus22> chea:so.. if the problem is gradually being identified maybe i can get a pill or therapy for it within a decade!
15:17:41 <itidus22> cheater_: so.. if the problem is gradually being identified maybe i can get a pill or therapy for it within a decade!
15:17:54 <cheater_> just do what the character did in the end
15:18:21 <kmc> also they had a blatant Magic Negro character but I guess i already complained about that
15:18:49 <cheater_> 16:22 restate my assumptions: 1. kmc is a troll
15:19:00 <kmc> @remember <cheater_> 16:22 restate my assumptions: 1. kmc is a troll
15:19:18 <itidus22> cheater_: but you said he was hacking away at something... and you're saying this wasn't enough to save him
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15:19:32 <itidus22> is the problem that he didn't hack away good enough?
15:19:45 <kmc> itidus22: no the problem is that he was too good
15:19:47 <kmc> you should watch it
15:19:49 <cheater_> he was in the flow for too long
15:19:52 <kmc> then you should watch Requiem for a Dream
15:20:14 <cheater_> he was so deep into it he completely dissociated the real world
15:20:17 <kmc> then you'll probably want to die
15:20:32 <kmc> you should
15:20:34 <kmc> it's a really good film
15:20:38 <kmc> with good music
15:21:09 <itidus22> cheater_: what i have realized is that the problem i have centers around the whole idea of reflecting on past information with new information
15:21:21 <cheater_> Requiem.For.A.Dream.2000.720p.BluRay.x264-SiNNERS.mkv
15:21:26 <itidus22> when the past information is just fine as it is
15:21:33 <cheater_> itidus22: no idea what you mean.
15:22:05 <itidus22> well.. like the focuses of an adult are different than those of a child
15:22:35 <itidus22> and.. after, lets say, spending too much time indoors and concentrating on certain ideas
15:22:52 <itidus22> then.. we have new perspectives with which to view our past
15:23:00 <itidus22> but if these new perspectives are garbage
15:23:36 <itidus22> if they're depressing they are
15:23:38 <cheater_> i realized last year i don't hate buttermilk
15:23:43 <cheater_> i did as a kid having never tried any
15:24:01 <cheater_> the new perspective wasn't garbage
15:25:03 <itidus22> and lets say.. activites we once enjoyed which we think are silly now
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15:25:47 <itidus22> anyway, isolation probably isn't good
15:25:57 <itidus22> but isolation is hard to really escape
15:26:46 <itidus22> cheater_: hah.. heres the video i recommend for the protagonist of Pi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKCnHWas3HQ
15:27:20 <itidus22> imagine this song in the context of Pi
15:28:12 <cheater_> kmc: it starts with violins droning and tuning
15:28:30 <cheater_> i'll make a tshirt with a screencap
15:29:08 <itidus22> i always thought this song was just an old-person song
15:33:06 <itidus22> "When you've got worries all the noise and the hurry seems to help, I know."
15:33:21 <itidus22> "Just listen to the music of the traffic in the city."
15:34:26 <cheater_> yeah it's actually a good idea, from a psychiatric point of view
15:34:31 <cheater_> kmc is it ok to be having three stakes
15:34:47 <cheater_> i'm gonna cook these two cuts with szechuan pepper
15:35:04 <kmc> interesting
15:35:11 <kmc> i don't know if szechuan pepper would go with steak
15:36:08 <kmc> my favorite dish at the local szechuan restaurant is called "spicy beef with cumin"
15:36:14 <kmc> i don't know how to describe its properties exactly
15:36:37 <kmc> the beef is fried in delicious batter or something
15:36:47 <kmc> and it's super spicy and szechuan-peppery
15:37:21 <kmc> i think it's fairy different from the spicy hunan beef with cumin that i find easily by google
15:37:27 <kmc> cheater_: do you know how to make good currywurst sauce
15:37:41 <kmc> i'm guessing that heinz ketchup + curry powder is not ideal
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15:47:32 <cheater_> you need a specific very cheap ketchup
15:48:01 <cheater_> but it's fairly watery and somewhat jelly like
15:49:20 <cheater_> but as you know i am offended by the idea of currywurst
15:50:11 <cheater_> all currywurst stands have a special currywurst cutter
15:50:17 <cheater_> it's a machine where you enter the currywurst at the top
15:50:44 <cheater_> and it slices it into slices of random 1-2 cm thickness
15:51:05 <cheater_> that is put on a rectangular paper tray
15:51:16 <cheater_> and then curry powder at your own leisure
15:51:45 <AnotherTest> and of course make sure those machines are Turing complete(well, unfortunately that's not possible unless we're talking virtual curryworst)
15:52:35 <kmc> wurst is better
15:52:45 <kmc> i've been cutting with knife
15:53:04 <kmc> your description of the ketchup sounds like standard cheap american ketchup
15:53:09 <kmc> except for jelly-like
15:53:10 <cheater_> kmc: so this spice i just used, called bockhornkleesaat, seems to be relatively unknown
15:53:24 <cheater_> nah the jelly like is just pedantism on my side, disregard
15:53:38 <cheater_> in germany currywurst is the food of the lowest classes
15:53:55 <itidus22> cheater_: well like salmon swimming against the current, it's easy to forget that relaxing with a bit of sport and a beer can be good for you
15:54:03 <kmc> cheater_: it's related to fenugreek?
15:54:10 <kmc> the bockhornkleesaat
15:54:16 <kmc> i have heard of it
15:54:28 <cheater_> i have no idea what the hitlers use it for
15:54:36 <cheater_> it's one of those things you look at and have no idea
15:54:44 <cheater_> anyways it goes well with the szechuan pepper
15:54:48 <cheater_> since it's fairly alkaline too
15:55:03 <kmc> is it fenugreek seeds or fenugreek leaves?
16:05:19 <cheater_> i see two kids shlepping a tv across the city
16:05:46 <cheater_> "i'll tell kmc i see two kids shlepping a tv across the city, and that they probably want to use it to make drugs"
16:05:51 <cheater_> then they start talking about making drugs
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16:52:20 <itidus22> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Narrative&diff=cur&oldid=488999882
17:03:56 <nortti> Living witout X has been very easy. It is actually easier for me than living with X
17:03:56 <cheater> kmc: http://lh6.ggpht.com/-DIU4wNe0EpY/T6DHvL3l0lI/AAAAAAAAWps/utau6yOyKt0/02-Desktop3%25255B5%25255D.jpg?imgmax=800
17:04:35 <itidus22> or rather, what are you using in place of X?
17:04:39 <nortti> itidus22: framebuffer and console apps
17:05:12 <nortti> itidus22: I am also trying to get ManaGeR to compile (it was designed for Linux 1.x)
17:05:29 <itidus22> what sort of thing is framebuffer?
17:05:37 <nortti> itidus22: linux framebbuffer, also known as fbdev
17:06:11 <itidus22> nortti: i recently ranted about how gui is bad
17:06:29 <itidus22> maybe you are living the truth
17:06:40 <kmc> what is ManaGeR
17:06:57 <nortti> itidus22: it makes possible larger virtual consoles and with it I can use simple graphics in virtual consoles (I use links2 and mplayer with framebuffer)
17:07:46 <nortti> kmc: very old GUI combining Graphics server, WM and terminal emulator in sama package
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17:08:03 <itidus22> nortti: the main point of my rant was that windows are not as useful as they propose to be
17:08:19 <nortti> itidus22: where can I read your rant?
17:08:33 <itidus22> uhh.. it was short... and i didnt complete it but i will find it
17:08:33 <cheater> itt: http://conal.net/blog/posts/tangible-functional-programming-a-modern-marriage-of-usability-and-composability
17:08:52 <itidus22> humm.. just need to remember what words i used :D
17:10:26 <nortti> `log [i]tidus multitasking
17:10:55 <itidus22> theres probably a good explanation for this.. but i will just find it
17:12:16 <itidus22> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-05-09#155943itidus21
17:12:34 <itidus22> in any case for a few pages i ramble about some of these things
17:13:48 <itidus22> so, i didn't fully flesh out my ideas.
17:14:12 <itidus22> but yeah, the gui systems were rushed to market without any real thought
17:15:12 <itidus22> honestly there is no good reason for why you even need multiple windows.
17:16:13 <itidus22> so what we see is that browsers adopt the purely tabbed model... this is how operating systems should really have been
17:16:32 <nortti> itidus22: do you mean multiple windows as in many windows on screen at the same time or multiple output buffers
17:16:59 <itidus22> many windows on screen... it's just pointless
17:17:22 <itidus22> i know i would feel lost without it. and i would feel greatly deprived of something
17:18:54 <kmc> i like to have two terminals next to each other
17:18:59 <kmc> each occupying half the screen
17:19:13 <kmc> i could do this with screen or emacs instead of X, but that's pretty arbitrary
17:19:15 <itidus22> maybe fixed window shapes is a good idea
17:19:21 <kmc> i also like to have a browser next to a terminal
17:19:26 <nortti> itidus22: I thought the same way before I removed X. Now I see no reason to have more than 2 windows on screen at a time
17:19:47 <kmc> overlapping windows are almost useless though
17:20:11 <kmc> i mainly use them when i don't want to fight with xmonad's primitive and clunky notion of layout
17:20:36 <itidus22> so overlapping windows is thrusted down upon me
17:21:04 <itidus22> and, perhaps as a sign of my latent intelligence i have dared to question it
17:21:12 <nortti> itidus22: I tend to use two viewports and swapping windows in and out using gnu screen. I honestly don't see why would anyone need more than two tiled windows
17:21:28 <kmc> nortti: depends how big your monitor is
17:21:35 <itidus22> nortti: it seems that 2 windows is like when you fold open a book.
17:21:47 <kmc> i had a widescreen monitor that would fit three 80-column terminals side by side
17:21:50 <kmc> that is useful
17:22:57 <itidus22> so perhaps 1 window is "not enough"
17:23:10 <itidus22> and on a widescreen.. 1 window would feel a bit silly
17:24:39 <kmc> i think a nice setup is two widescreen monitors, one landscape and one portrait
17:25:21 <itidus22> i don't mind if an application has subwindows etc
17:25:37 <itidus22> but theres no reason for the top level to have subwindows
17:25:54 <kmc> you might want to see two applications at once?
17:26:09 <kmc> web browser for docs + terminal for code editor
17:26:10 <itidus22> like it's great for something like photoshop or flash to have lots of little windows
17:27:16 <itidus22> i just remember that when i was using dos.. i never thought "geez i wish i had multiple apps at one time
17:28:03 <itidus22> but i admit that theres good reasons for things
17:28:14 <qfr> https://images.4chan.org/mu/src/1336752176872.png pic related
17:29:24 <kmc> itt: real hackers
17:31:30 * itidus22 hides powerdrills from the real nef
17:36:50 <kmc> nef uses shubshub caps
17:40:48 <itidus22> i can't quite put a finger on it but i would like to see a form of programming which is [stops to think] ahh humm
17:41:34 <itidus22> what would be the most extreme form of compiler/interpreter writing? perhaps if you wrote the compiler/interpreter only and the computer generated code?
17:41:42 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
17:42:18 <quintopia> itidus22: the most extreme form is to BUILD IT OUT OF K'NEX PIECES
17:42:29 <itidus22> i thought fungot was a human for a moment there
17:42:29 <fungot> itidus22: should be!... ' ed? riastradh, don't have the time
17:43:08 <itidus22> the word extreme was not illustrative on my part
17:43:54 <itidus22> but, if writing source code is about following rules then writing compilers/interpreters is about creating rules
17:44:29 <itidus22> but you always need one to create the other eh
17:45:59 <itidus22> the BASIC of compiler compilers
17:46:35 <itidus22> lets have 10 year olds writing compilers day in day out
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17:46:50 <itidus22> and stop pretending it's so hard to do
17:46:51 <kmc> yeah what the world needs is more programming languages designed by ignorant amateurs
17:47:09 <kmc> after all designing a programming language is just a matter of picking symbols that look nice
17:47:50 <kmc> srsly though it is cool to show people that compilers aren't magic, here's how they work
17:48:01 <kmc> but your compiler construction kit may or may not demonstrate that
17:48:13 <itidus22> the problem with my nef project is
17:48:35 <itidus22> that simply having a compiler is not much use on it's own
17:49:28 <itidus22> theres no real reason for kids to even want their own compilers
17:50:06 <itidus22> since their languages will be trashy like a good 30 line BASIC program
17:53:04 <itidus22> i am calling it nef because it is the nef side of me which would propose such a thing even though i am ignorant on so many related fields
17:54:27 <itidus22> i really have this whole contempt for compilers
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18:02:39 <itidus22> the poet in me can explain the issue
18:03:51 <itidus22> from an ocean beach looking at the horizon, the wise man realizes he cannot swim as far as the horizon extends
18:05:20 <augur> ion: its called an intrusive r
18:05:22 <itidus22> but the fool is thinking, whether 50 yards or to the extent of the horizon swimming is swimming.
18:05:57 <augur> ion: many british english dialects are "non-rhotic" which means that final r's, especially after an "uh" like sound, are not pronounced
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18:06:45 <augur> as a consequence, it's not uncommon for some of those dialects to over-analyze words ending in "uh" as actually being words that end in r, which has been deleted because of that deletion rule
18:06:45 <itidus22> i don't quite know what i am describing... another way to say it is that, it is not until one has learned to drive that one can appreciate the skills of a master of driving
18:07:26 <augur> ion: but, when this final r is between words, it can emerge because it's not strictly final, at least not over the whole utterance
18:07:33 <itidus22> uh.. it is not until one has learned to make and place a brick, that one realizes he cannot build the tower of babel
18:07:35 <augur> sort of like liaison in french
18:09:21 <itidus22> like everyone who has done their 10,000 hours in some field probably has a good instinctive intuitive feel of what is truely challenging and what is not
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18:12:46 <itidus22> ahh.. like for the author.. the joy of "i wrote a novel" versus the ideal of "i solved novel writing mathematically"
18:16:15 <nortti> itidus22: actually I have two windows which are up and down windows. not leaft and right
18:17:31 <itidus22> i think this is my main confusion in lambda calculus.. looking for some magical summary of what LC can do beyond it's stated rules
18:18:45 <itidus22> like uh.. with arithmetic there are instances of numbers around me everyday
18:19:07 <itidus22> which gives me a fair idea of how big the numbers are i can expect to worry about day to day
18:19:21 <nortti> itidus22: my setup if following: tty1:links, tty2:irssi, tty3:gnu screen, tty4:hammer and sicle, uptime, free, who and df
18:20:02 <itidus22> but with LC.. there is no exhibits
18:21:19 <kmc> what it can do is all computations
18:21:58 <itidus22> so.. like.. you see.. should i think of computations as in the kind of apps i have on my pc?
18:22:30 <itidus22> kind of like.. uh.. astronomy we tend to focus on local solar system
18:30:49 <kmc> kind of amazed this works: http://i.imgur.com/6QpIO.png
18:49:57 <cheater> you know what i like best about them paddy chicks kmc
18:49:59 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 19 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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18:55:33 <cheater> but it's another 20 minutes and i don't know if i can make it
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19:00:21 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:00:31 <Taneb> I've just been to THE THEATRE
19:00:36 <Taneb> *not quite the theatre
19:01:11 <Taneb> *actually AS level drama exam
19:01:11 <AnotherTest> according to the dictionary to compile: "to translate (a computer program) from a high-level language into another language, usually machine language, using a compiler. "
19:01:17 <ais523> @tell elliott because it's "genetic BSD", as in based on the codebase, and that codebase has already been cleared by a court case settlement with the original authors of UNIX
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19:07:34 <Taneb> I saw Clockwork Orange, Trojan Women, and Abagail's Party
19:09:11 <cheater> there was no redeeming value in it for me
19:10:25 <cheater> i think perhaps it would be a shocker and eye opener for a typical ivy league student who has been sheltered all its life
19:11:04 <cheater> this way i see how it could be of value to someone else
19:11:50 <cheater> it was a fairly pointless use of time and emotional wear for me
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19:13:28 <nortti> ais523: what is "genetic BSD"?
19:14:13 <ais523> nortti: "genetic UNIX" refers to something that's UNIX-like because it's actually based on the codebase of the original UNIX, indirectly, rather than attempting to copy it like Linux
19:14:27 <ais523> original-UNIX has been continually deformed into OS X
19:17:22 <nortti> ais523: for example is v7/x86 "genetic UNIX"?
19:17:41 <ais523> nortti: anything that contains code from original UNIX
19:17:55 <ais523> pretty much all Unix-likes are apart from Linux
19:18:32 <pikhq> Well, there is Minix.
19:18:35 <nortti> ais523: even BSDs even thought they don't contain original unix surce?
19:18:51 <ais523> nortti: what makes you think they don't contain original unix source?
19:18:58 <ais523> BSD wasn't rewritten from scratch, it was a fork
19:20:03 <nortti> ais523: because they couldn't have released it under BSD license if it still had original unix source code (see 4.2BSD Net/2)
19:20:23 <ais523> nortti: there was a court settlement
19:20:39 <ais523> which confirmed that the licensing was OK
19:21:59 <pikhq> Novell bought the rights, and then settled.
19:22:19 <nortti> ais523: so it confirmed they didn't have code that was property of USL. There were five files that couldn't be released under BSD license but those were written from scratch on other BSD forks
19:22:34 <ais523> hmm, we seem to have different memories of UNIX history
19:22:36 <pikhq> The settlement leaked in 2004: basically, BSD was in the clear if they rewrote a small handful of bits that they didn't already rewrite.
19:22:58 <pikhq> nortti: The other bits simply *happened* to have already been rewritten from the fork.
19:23:19 <nortti> pikhq: that was called 4.4BSD-lite
19:23:47 <nortti> pikhq: Net/2 lacked those five files that were needed
19:24:39 <nortti> pikhq: those were written from scratch on 386BSD project
19:25:46 <nortti> BSD is a fork of UNIX but open source versions no longer contain original UNIX source
19:26:08 <pikhq> And Linux no longer contains original v0.1 Linux source; your point? :)
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19:27:01 <nortti> pikhq: my point is that BSD contains no original UNIX source code which ais523 said it contained
19:27:13 <ais523> nortti: it contained it at the time it implemented the API, though
19:27:19 <ais523> and it still contains the same API
19:27:20 <pikhq> Still genetic UNIX.
19:28:28 <nortti> I didn't say it wasn't genetic unix, I just said it no longer contain original unix source
19:28:30 <quintopia> this sounds like a philosophical debate
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19:28:54 <quintopia> "if you replace every plank on a ship one-by-one as they rot, then by the time you have replaced them all, is it the same ship?:
19:29:48 <pikhq> nortti: Congrats, you are not the same person as the one called "nortti" two years ago.
19:30:04 <quintopia> nortti: i'd dissolve the question. identity is a silly man-made thing.
19:30:32 <nortti> pikhq: you are right. I am not
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19:32:05 <quintopia> i agree with nortti. we are not the same people we were then. however, i think that is true regardless of the philosophical question
19:32:20 <zzo38> I know those philosophical things
19:33:55 <quintopia> fortunately, i believe, if anything, i have a higher informational content than i did two years ago. the things i've forgotten left compressed remnants of themselves that interact in strange ways with the things i remember
19:34:10 <quintopia> that and i probably weigh a bit more >.>
19:38:15 <kmc> shachaf: shachaf
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19:40:45 <zzo38> If all the iron atoms in some car are instantly switched with the equal amount of iron from something else, is it the same car?
19:41:06 <Taneb> I'm going with yes
19:41:22 <zzo38> I say the answer is no.
19:41:45 <AnotherTest> (assuming they are also all in the same place, because you said switched)
19:41:59 <zzo38> And that modern physics seems to provide evidence for my opinion.
19:42:11 <quintopia> zzo38: physics says your question is meaningless
19:42:23 <kmc> i like the theory that there's only one electron in the universe, it's bouncing back and forth between the beginning and end of time, and when it's going backwards it's a positron
19:43:07 <zzo38> quintopia: Newtonian physics may, but with such new thing as quantum entanglement and wavefunctions and uncertainty and all that stuff, we cannot say it is definitely the same thing.
19:43:09 <quintopia> but he really gets the point across that electrons are not only indistinguishable by anything except position/momentum
19:43:10 <Taneb> quintopia, feynman is every crazy guy. He's going back and forth in the universe, and when he's going backwards he's a vicar
19:43:29 <quintopia> but not really worth distinguishing in many cases
19:43:52 <quintopia> zzo38: quantum physics says your question is meaningless
19:44:20 <quintopia> quantum physics says it doesn't make sense to talk about "switching particles with one another"
19:44:52 <AnotherTest> indeed, because you couldn't(you could never get their exact location)
19:45:52 <zzo38> quintopia: Exactly, it is what I mean by that the mathematics has no way to represent it is, therefore, their exact location doesn't have and if they are switched, you have to antisymmetry (or symmetry) to subtract the states to figure out the result which should be zero if in fact they are the same, but even in that case, uncertainty and entanglement is possible.
19:46:39 <AnotherTest> so you're saying that the car would fall apart?
19:47:09 <AnotherTest> but it might exist for a very short timespan
19:47:11 <quintopia> zzo38: do you understand what "entanglement" is? do you understand where exactly the uncertainty arises?
19:47:14 <zzo38> No! But I am also saying that you cannot consider space/time like this. It is all relative and space and time are together rather than separate, too.
19:47:43 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes I know how to write down the state vectors for an entangled state and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and those things to some degree.
19:48:04 <zzo38> Well, it might fall apart; everything is possible.
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19:48:35 <AnotherTest> zzo38: with falling apart I mean falling apart in energy
19:48:44 <zzo38> That is not what I meant by what I have said
19:49:28 <AnotherTest> because if some atoms(or smaller particles) would be in an incorrect position, the whole thing would become unstable?
19:49:34 <zzo38> AnotherTest: O, you mean in energy. Well, I have not calculated the amount of energy it has, and I only know the Newtonian energy anyways, which is different from this energy
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19:50:17 <zzo38> AnotherTest: But, yes, tat would be the case; however, that is not what I meant; when I said I meant they would switch exact (as far as it is meaningful) position
19:50:30 <nortti> how did we get to this from unix?
19:51:52 <pikhq> By way of philosophy.
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20:49:43 <cheater> why did you subject me to that crappy movie
20:49:52 <cheater> it was like watching days go by
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21:07:55 <ais523> is the icon belonging to a window something that X tracks? or is it tracked at a different level (e.g. window manager or dbus)?
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21:11:41 <kmc> if you run xprop and click a Firefox window you'll see a nice big firefox icon in your terminal
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21:40:02 <ion> @tell augur Thanks for the explanation. :-)
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21:46:35 <zzo38> Let's remove human from endangered species list; the population is too much
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22:02:46 <kmc> shachaf: http://i.imgur.com/6QpIO.png
22:04:10 <shachaf> kmc: I used to more or less be able to read Arabic. :-(
22:06:16 <shachaf> I saw fancy characters and immediately assumed it was Agda.
22:07:58 <kmc> i think the bidi algorithm is particularly bad for source code
22:08:02 <kmc> like that "n = n" is a LTR span
22:08:20 <kmc> if those were two different variable names, the argument would be the one further from the function name
22:09:07 <shachaf> Please don't write code in RTL languages. :-(
22:09:11 <ion> There probably should be just short RTL spans for single words.
22:09:23 <shachaf> kmc: What were you doing in Boston?
22:09:23 <ion> and longer ones for strings and comments, i suppose
22:09:50 <shachaf> I don't actually have a good intuitive model of the standard bidi algorithm.
22:09:50 <pikhq_> I guess you'd want a syntactically aware text editor for handling RTL code.
22:09:58 <ion> Except that using non-English languages in code is evil, so there should be electric shocks for doing that.
22:10:11 <shachaf> I've had cases where I had a URL with LTR and RTL characters and I just *couldn't* put my cursor where I wanted.
22:10:22 <pikhq_> The bidi algorithm spans a single syntactic entity. e.g. a name, a single string, or a single comment.
22:10:29 <shachaf> The least painful solution ended up being deleting a large chunk of it and typing it from scratch.
22:10:51 <zzo38> One way is to require all program codes to be ASCII. It is also possible to write all URLs in ASCII, too.
22:11:35 <pikhq_> zzo38: Most code is written in straight ASCII, so hey.
22:11:36 <shachaf> zzo38: Another way is to kill anyone who speaks non-English languages.
22:11:45 <ion> LETS REQUIRE ALL PROGRAM CODES TO CONSIST OF CAPITAL LETTERS NUMBERS AND SPACES
22:12:00 <shachaf> zzo38: kmc's opinion of you is going to be about the same with either of those ways!
22:12:48 <zzo38> Well, text strings and comments would still be permitted to contain non-ASCII texts
22:14:16 <shachaf> kmc: Wait, you live in Boston.
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22:26:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1507
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22:48:05 <HackEgo> 753) <fungot> fizzie: it's just so stupid that ' stty erase h' has more bizarre results. it was, that he was overcome with the vastness, profundity, and fnord
22:48:08 <HackEgo> 853) <monqy> imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode. <monqy> that's what it's like for people who hit you
22:48:11 <HackEgo> 600) <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed.
22:48:24 <HackEgo> 775) <fizzie> [...] and then you just shuffle the integral signs around a bit and hope no mathematicians notice.
22:48:25 <HackEgo> 321) <oklopol> haha, god made one helluva blunder there :DS <oklopol> "WHOOPS HE AIN'T DEAD YET!" <oklopol> "luckily no one will believe him because christians are such annoying retards"
22:58:03 <shachaf> nortti: You should delete 600.
22:59:17 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed.
23:02:59 <zzo38> Can you play E Card?
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23:26:14 <shachaf> zzo38: How do I find out whether I can play E Card?
23:26:45 <zzo38> shachaf: I can tell you how it is played.
23:28:36 <zzo38> The game is played by two players, the owner and challenger.
23:30:11 <zzo38> There are three kind of cards: Emperor, Citizen, and Slave. Emperor beats Citizen, Citizen beats Slave, and Slave beats Emperor. (If you prefer, you can use Pokemon cards: leaf energy card beats water energy card, water energy card beats fire energy card, and fire energy card beats leaf energy card.)
23:31:58 <zzo38> At first, owner has four Citizen and one Slave, and challenger has four Citizen and one Emperor. Three rounds are played this way, and then it is switch so that challenger has Slave instead, again for three rounds. And then this is repeated three time both ways for a total of twelve rounds.
23:33:08 <zzo38> The player with the Emperor card plays a card face-down, and then the player with Slave plays a card face-down. If both are Citizens, then they are discarded and the player holding the Slave card plays first this time. It alternates until one player wins or loses.
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23:34:59 <zzo38> It is not permitted to just select a card at random; you are required to decide which card to play (I am unsure how they can enforce this rule). In addition, both players have a five minute time limit to select a card.
23:36:01 <zzo38> Before the game starts, a drill is screwed onto one of the challenger's ears, 3 cm from the eardrum.
23:39:01 <zzo38> Before each round, the challenger makes a bet in millimetres. After the cards are played, if the challenger loses then the drill is moved that distance (the eardrum is destroyed if the distance between it and the drill is reduced to zero). If the challenger wins while playing the Emperor's side, he wins 100000 yen per mm bet. If the challenger wins with the Slave's side, he wins 500000 yen per mm bet.
23:39:40 <zzo38> At the end, the drill is removed and he gets to keep the money, regardless of whether or not his ear has been destroyed.
23:40:00 <zzo38> These are the rules. OK?????
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00:34:29 <Gregor> Wow, Portal 2 single player.
00:34:52 <Gregor> (Multi-player is pretty great too, but everybody fawned over multi-player, and I didn't see too many people praising the single-player game)
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01:19:00 <zzo38> Do you understand E Card now?
01:21:45 <Sgeo> Gregor, did you play Portal?
01:22:47 <Gregor> Portal was brilliant, but somewhat lacking in plot (which was fine, since the gameplay was fantastic).
01:23:08 <Gregor> Portal 2 not only improved the gameplay, but had a plot that was spectacular, detailed, and very involving.
01:23:32 <Gregor> And that's to say nothing of coöp mode, which I'm still playing with a friend.
01:23:43 <Sgeo> Gregor, does co-op work across PC/XBox?
01:23:55 <Sgeo> iirc it does but want to double-check quickly
01:23:58 <Gregor> Donno, my friend and I both have it on Steam (PC)
01:27:53 <coppro> Gregor: did you enjoy the part where he kills you?
01:28:50 <Gregor> coppro: OMG DON'T SPOIL IT FOR THE REST
01:29:51 -!- coppro has set topic: spoilers | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
01:30:23 <Gregor> quintopia: Yeah, you should definitely play the single-player game.
01:30:38 <Gregor> quintopia: Even if /just/ for the plot, although the puzzles are (naturally) great too.
01:31:01 <Gregor> That was either unnecessarily angry or mis-caplocked X-D
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01:51:43 <zzo38> pathfinder _ g h | g == h = return h; pathfinder s g h = WriterT ((\x -> (x, [x])) <$> (s !! h)) >>= pathfinder s g;
01:58:39 <pikhq> "Cephalic ganglion": best name for the brain?
02:01:10 <zzo38> I am trying to invent WizardCard and I wrote some of the codes already
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02:54:11 <Sgeo> http://continuitygame.com/playcontinuity.html
02:59:52 <Madoka-Kaname> pikhq, can the brain even be classified as a ganglion?
03:00:56 <zzo38> Which rules of Magic: the Gathering cards do you dislike?
03:04:14 <shachaf> zzo38: I dislike the rule where it has magic.
03:04:23 <shachaf> Shun magic, and shun the appearance of magic!
03:04:27 <shachaf> Shun everything, and then shun shunning!
03:04:29 <zzo38> shachaf: As far as I know it has no such rule.
03:04:40 <shachaf> Which rules does it have, then?
03:04:52 <shachaf> Is there a rules where it has gathering? E.g. of the card
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03:12:02 <zzo38> It look good to me and I hope I did it correctly: expandPat t = option t (get >>= lift . map (first $ checkPatternMatch [t]) . getBlocks (transEnum KW_macro) >>== \(x, y) -> head . M.foldrWithKey substitute [y] <$> x);
03:12:49 <tilsoun> What's a minimal language that operates on a tape (i.e., jumping to an arbitrary address is assumed to be expensive)?
03:13:27 <zzo38> tilsoun: Do you mean the program or the data?
03:14:35 <zzo38> I don't know of one that has both. Perhaps invent one on esolang wiki, or put it in the list of ideas.
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03:30:14 <cheater> Sgeo: A+++++++ would play another 1000 levels
03:47:34 <zzo38> I am trying to think of how to represent some things in WizardCard and other thing about implementation too
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07:31:01 <Sgeo> BLASPHEMY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dSNAkNdvmg
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07:55:29 <Taneb> Hello, Phantom_Hoover
07:55:42 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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08:16:15 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, have you heard the blasphemy?
08:17:58 <Taneb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dSNAkNdvmg
08:18:05 <Taneb> ^^^ that blashphemy
08:18:35 <Taneb> Sho blashphemic it turnsh me into Shean Connery
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08:25:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17369
08:27:45 <itidus20> 2007-06-23.txt:08:24:55: <oklopol> Heh, last night me and a friend decided to walk 40 km... started at midnight... by the end of the trip I was actually having short dreams while walking :DD
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08:47:27 <ion> The China Export symbol looks similar completely by accident, i’m sure. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/CE_marks.jpg
08:47:30 <fizzie> Phantom__Hoover: That seems to be a safe assumption in any and all circumstances.
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10:00:21 <pikhq> Madoka-Kaname: Yes, the brain is in fact a ganglion. Just with a lot of natural selection applied to it.
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10:38:48 <cheater_> kmc: i am about this upset with your recent movie suggestion: this upset: http://inside-logger.com/img/upset_kid.jpg
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11:17:21 <cheater_> Sgeo: have you finished continuity?
11:17:32 <cheater_> i'm on the last level, but haven't given it a real effort yet
11:20:56 <Sgeo> cheater_, haven't gotten there yet
11:24:33 <cheater_> i'm talking about the web version btw
11:24:38 <cheater_> are you playing the ipad version already?
11:24:43 <cheater_> the web version was fairly simple
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11:33:29 <nortti> aw shit. I lost all of my work on c2bf.
11:34:30 <nortti> also my own pkgmgr seems to be missing from backups
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12:00:19 <cheater_> wow ok the last level is fairly tough
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12:25:48 <nortti> does anyone know can I make my libc for c2bf available under wtfpl if I include it in c2bf which is under GPL?
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12:30:40 <Taneb> Can anyone recommend a mind-map software?
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12:47:08 <sebbu> nortti, double licence ?
12:47:30 <sebbu> GPL is more restrictive than WTFPL
12:49:12 <nortti> sebbu: I am trying to make c2bf usable so I am adding libc but I'd like to keep it under WTFPL
12:54:33 <Gregor> C2BF is a C compiler. It does not impose a license on the code it compiles, just like any other C compiler.
12:54:39 <Gregor> GCC is under GPL, for example.
12:55:35 <nortti> Gregor: I am including my libc in my fork of c2bf
12:56:03 <Gregor> So? My distro includes both GCC and glibc.
12:56:25 <Gregor> (Or eglibc, as it were)
12:57:37 <nortti> Gregor: so I can make my c2bf fork contain both GPL and WTFPL licensed code?
12:59:35 <Gregor> A) Of course, B) yes, even if they actually linked together (although then the aggregate /binary/ would have to be released under GPL, which has implications on the source), C) since they DON'T link together, there isn't even an argument, the two licenses have absolutely no bearing on each other. You could have something GPL-incompatible and it would still make no difference.
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13:56:44 <nortti> http://www.elisanet.fi/~g623951/c2bf-j-0.01.patch
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14:47:06 <elliott> Deewiant: What case is the WINDOWS directory in recent Windowses.
14:47:08 <Taneb> This gives me a stupid idea
14:47:12 <elliott> i.e. C:\windows, C:\Windows or C:\WINDOWS
14:47:24 <Taneb> Server table tennis
14:47:47 <Taneb> Configure servers to append a ping message to all pong messages to a particular server
14:48:26 <Taneb> First server to drop it, the other one gets a point
14:57:14 <Gregor> nortti: I would recommend you properly fork, and link your fork from the esolangs page.
15:02:05 <elliott> gcc specifically has an exception to GPL to avoid infecting code it compiles, IIRC.
15:05:54 <kmc> because gcc has library code it links into the output binary?
15:05:54 <lambdabot> kmc: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:06:05 <lambdabot> cheater_ said 2h 58m 14s ago: upset
15:15:42 <kmc> cheater_: :(
15:22:09 <Gregor> <elliott> gcc specifically has an exception to GPL to avoid infecting code it compiles, IIRC. // yeah, that's for libgcc
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15:22:48 <kmc> it's not clear where the line is drawn though
15:23:09 <elliott> Gregor: You could just relicense C2BF as not-GPL :P
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15:25:23 <kmc> libgcc is a library gcc links into the binaries it produces
15:26:01 <Gregor> nortti: I hereby license all of my code in C2BF under ISC. Feel free to change the headers at your leisure. I think I used a published Yacc grammar for C in there somewhere, so be wary of its license if it's under any.
15:26:21 <Gregor> (ISC is this license: http://opensource.org/licenses/ISC )
15:29:19 <elliott> Gregor: Hmm, has nobody else contributed to C2BF?
15:29:29 * elliott aims to make your life difficult.
15:30:00 <nortti> Gregor: isn't ISC basically WTFPL with warranty clause?
15:30:38 <elliott> And more legally airtight wording...
15:30:56 <elliott> ISC requires reproduction of the license/copyright notice.
15:31:12 <elliott> ISC is basically BSD2/MIT.
15:32:04 <Taneb> The Gedcom standard is so dense
15:32:25 <nortti> Gregor: do you have commit history to c2bf?
15:33:52 <elliott> See http://esolangs.org/wiki/C2BF.
15:35:36 <nortti> elliott: what about it?
15:35:49 <elliott> ...It has a link to the SVN repository right there...
15:36:30 <elliott> nortti: ...SVN repositories give you the entire commit history?
15:45:21 <elliott> Texplosions. Sexplosions. Wait.
15:49:41 <Gregor> <nortti> Gregor: do you have commit history to c2bf? // there are tools to get the commit history out of a svn repo. The name "svnsync" comes to mind.
15:50:22 <Lumpio-> Is a texplosion something like
15:50:26 <elliott> Gregor: git-svn works well for that.
15:53:50 <kmc> shachaf: it seems GCC 4.4 is the culprit in my fstack-protector slowdown
15:53:58 <kmc> redid the benchmarks with 4.6 and it's more what i expected
15:55:41 -!- Gregor has set topic: SPOILER ALERT: He dies in the end | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
15:57:19 <Gregor> It's what makes the story so relatable.
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16:01:04 <elliott> What is THE ALAN DIPERT doing on /r/programming?
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16:11:17 <Taneb> elliott, is it dwarf fortress time?
16:11:26 <elliott> I don't know. Is it Dwarf Fortress time?
16:12:39 <Taneb> Is it a time such that, if I stream myself playing Dwarf Fortress, you will watch?
16:16:03 <cheater_> <cheater_> kmc: i am about this upset with your recent movie suggestion: this upset: http://inside-logger.com/img/upset_kid.jpg
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16:17:54 <elliott> Taneb: You realise you're not termcasting, right?
16:18:44 <cheater_> kmc: when making a steak with "steak pepper" (a mixture of salt, pepper, paprika, mustard seeds, etc)
16:18:59 <cheater_> do i put this spice mix on the steak before putting it in the frying pan?
16:20:16 <kmc> cheater_: i'd put it on before, and maybe rub it in a bit
16:21:48 <cheater_> we'll see in a couple of minutes if it worked
16:22:23 <Taneb> I... I may have got my ratry login wrong?
16:22:35 <elliott> Taneb: Just pick a new username.
16:22:48 <elliott> Taneb: (This is why you store the ratry_login stuff in a file.)
16:23:45 <Taneb> elliott, got corrupted
16:24:04 <Taneb> In the mess I had over the past two days
16:28:30 <cheater_> kmc: i'm not upset anymore though
16:28:49 <cheater_> except this morning when i woke up dreaming someone electrocuted me and the flesh was falling off my legs
16:29:44 <elliott> You should play Adventurer.
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16:34:03 <cheater_> i think the words "seared clump, bloody cold inside" describe this steak quite well
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16:36:04 <Taneb> Any suggestions for fortress names?
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16:38:15 <cheater_> this thing came out quite good actually
16:39:15 <cheater_> DwarfDwarfFortressFortressFactoryFactory
16:39:22 <itidus22> Fortress of Solidity (not really... this is like a nightmarish name)
16:42:01 <cheater_> kmc is bull's eye hickory smoke bbq squce a known brand in the us?
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16:45:12 <Gregor> cheater_: If I recall, Bull's Eye is one of those brands you can find in every grocery store. It's probably a subsidiary of Kraft or something.
16:46:09 <cheater_> yes http://www.kraftbrands.com/bullseyebbq/
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16:53:54 <elliott> Taneb: Oops, I forgot to raise the uxterm window.
16:54:00 <elliott> I missed the last, like, half an hour.
16:54:17 <Taneb> Nothing interesting happened
16:58:38 <itidus20> i was thinking of fortress craft when i made my suggestions.. because, just because
16:59:05 <itidus20> i havent ever owned a ~craft though
16:59:56 <Taneb> Minecraft for PC and XBox 360 + Fortress Craft here
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17:22:13 <Taneb> Not sure what happened there...
17:28:06 <Taneb> I think I lost internet and df crashed
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17:29:08 <elliott> monqy: crawl people are so wrong about hunger
17:29:21 <monqy> what are they saying
17:29:39 <monqy> "good thing monqys-crawl is right"
17:29:52 <elliott> monqy: mostly defending hunger in any shape or form
17:30:10 <elliott> while at the same time asking for nausea to be removed on the grounds that it's tedious and unimportant
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17:30:59 <elliott> monqy: apparently you need hunger because it minorly inconveniences berserkers
17:31:19 <elliott> (also for conjurers and summoners but "i don't know anything about them" so i can't comment)
17:32:16 <monqy> spells hunger you; bigger spell level means more hunger, and having spc/int means less hunger
17:32:37 <monqy> so at low skill/int the hunger serves to prevent you from spamming big spells
17:32:45 <elliott> not regen mp naturally instead
17:32:57 <zzo38> Reduce permanent food
17:33:06 <elliott> make exhaustion last longer
17:33:20 <elliott> make it not wear off unless you $do_something
17:33:35 <elliott> frankly the only times i've been unable to berserk because of hunger is when i get out of a tight situation and immediately into another
17:33:46 <elliott> making exhaustion last longer would fulfil that fine
17:33:49 <monqy> i'd go more for the latter since lasting longer means like pillar dancing it off or something
17:33:51 <elliott> admittedly it's susceptible to just pressing 5 a lot
17:34:00 <zzo38> In ADOM, spitting acid reduces your satiation level
17:34:06 <elliott> make kills reduce your exhaustion
17:34:08 <monqy> ideally in monqys-crawl you should never have to press 5
17:34:28 <monqy> killing the rat invigourates you
17:35:06 <elliott> "invigourates", good british english
17:35:32 <zzo38> Why should kills reduce your exhaustion? I don't see how that makes a lot of sense; resting should reduce your exhaustion (perhaps make the area danger and stuff, so that there is a penalty to resting, now you have to figure out what balance is best per circumstances)
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17:36:25 <monqy> realism is less important than gameplay
17:36:55 <elliott> monqy: you could also make exhaustion last longer and just make you lose hp over time "because"
17:37:05 <elliott> and then because hp on kills is great "the problem is solved"
17:37:50 <monqy> consistency is also important though and monsters losing hp over time or only berking once is silly so i'd have to do something about that, like give the player a horrible disease to explain away the discrepency
17:37:57 <monqy> "you need the deep deep down orb of zot to cure your self"
17:38:13 <zzo38> monqy: Hence why I have said so, make area danger and stuff a penalty to resting
17:38:19 <elliott> "ur dyinge. but on your bucket list it says : - get the orb of zot because nobody ever got it."
17:38:31 <elliott> "also, yuou're a sociopath and you like to see things diye it gives you reson to live"
17:38:51 <Phantom_Hoover> important question, will this perfect roguelike go the way of both of elliott's other perfect games
17:39:06 <elliott> wee're talking about monqy's roguelike
17:39:12 <monqy> which of my roguelikes
17:39:35 <monqy> there's monqys-crawl and then there's "my roguelike"
17:41:01 <monqy> and then there's the possibility i'll split "my roguelike" into numerous "my roguelikes"
17:41:11 <elliott> monqy: what's bad about crawl light btw
17:42:14 <monqy> mostly: it still has things that are bad from crawl, maybe lacks some of crawl's post-fork improvements (which?)
17:42:25 <monqy> like resting and big levels
17:42:30 <elliott> i hear it reversed a lot of nerfs perhaps unfairly
17:42:41 <monqy> you could try it and see how it goes
17:42:41 <elliott> what about LOS do they plan squarelos
17:43:22 <monqy> but the nofood and noid and stuff like that give it a big goodness advantage over crawl also so
17:43:36 <monqy> yeah i dunno i'd have to try it
17:43:49 <elliott> #crawllight is scary "so few people"
17:43:53 <elliott> im scared of big channels and small channels
17:44:02 <monqy> i used to be in there but nothing ever happened so i left
17:44:33 <ais523> <elliott> while at the same time asking for nausea to be removed on the grounds that it's tedious and unimportant <--- the amusing thing is, they added nausea because sickness was tedious and unimportant…
17:44:35 <elliott> i think the last scary channel membership is like
17:44:46 <elliott> as long as they're not friends
17:44:53 <elliott> 30-40 people who don't know each other
17:45:06 <ais523> I remember arguing against nausea, on the basis that it always either did nothing or killed you arbitrarily and unavoidably
17:45:14 <elliott> ais523: you set #CrawlLight's topic; do they plan to squarelos, or are they about to kick me for trolling? :p
17:45:15 <monqy> well, sickness is bad too
17:45:34 <ais523> elliott: I mostly didn't set it; I just added a meme to it
17:45:56 <ais523> I don't think they'd consider a squarelos suggestion trolling, although I'm not sure if they're planning it or not
17:46:07 <ais523> they'd take it seriously if you made it
17:46:42 <elliott> 18:43 <elliott> what about LOS? :P
17:46:42 <elliott> 18:45 <quairlzr> i'm not aware of the issue :P
17:46:43 <elliott> 18:45 <elliott> circle vs. square
17:46:45 <elliott> 18:45 <quairlzr> unchanged, and i don't know of plans
17:46:47 <elliott> 18:46 <quairlzr> what is the issue with circular?
17:46:49 <elliott> 18:46 <elliott> it's inconsistent with movement geometry (euclidean rather than chebyshev distance)
17:47:07 <ion> Circle vs. square? Pfft. I want a triangular LOS.
17:47:20 <elliott> los in the shape of a giant spider
17:47:29 <monqy> well squarelos is still inconsistent but it has gameplay benefits over circle los
17:47:54 <elliott> 18:47 <quairlzr> hmm, well, I'm unsure
17:48:10 <elliott> 18:48 <elliott> ask monqy if you want more/better arguments :p
17:48:39 <elliott> monqy: did you know centaurs used to be speed 20 "facts"
17:49:36 <elliott> monqy: are yoju being asked about squarelos as we speak
17:49:54 <elliott> join #CrawlLight immediately
17:50:03 <elliott> thats what quairlzr said it in
17:50:12 <elliott> what my irc client is convinced its called
17:56:16 <elliott> monqy: square lose "talk of the towne"
17:56:47 <zzo38> Do you know the game with the capture rule of go and the win condition of gomoku?
17:58:50 <elliott> monqy: im exhaust my knowledge and stuffe "you take over"
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18:01:22 <itidus20> problem 1 def: tomorrow i will have car seat agoraphobia. solution: minimize that by sleeping well beforehand. problem 2 def: my sleeping pattern is way out. solution: three pronged strategy to induce sleep.
18:01:44 -!- MoALTz__ has joined.
18:02:24 <elliott> the squarelos cause "dying because of monqy "
18:02:32 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:02:58 <monqy> if you want to get an answer ask dtsund
18:03:35 <elliott> wait for it ........ ... .
18:04:31 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
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18:07:51 <itidus20> phase 1: milk + hot water = triptophane
18:08:30 <itidus20> well i know its in the bible so its a sure thing
18:09:10 <itidus20> something about milk putting someone to sleep
18:11:07 <itidus20> #2 equip jacket so flimsy a kobold could attack right through it
18:11:28 <monqy> i don't like where this is going !!
18:11:32 <itidus20> and finally, #3 some asthma medicine
18:11:54 <monqy> do you have asthma
18:12:36 <itidus20> a bit.. but its mild.. but the salbutamol is strangely relaxing even though it's a stimulant
18:13:55 <itidus20> no no you got me all wrong before
18:15:17 <itidus20> i just meant that jacket is thin compared to chainmail or platemail designed but still designed to insulate and increase my core body temp. not quite seal skin though
18:17:04 <itidus20> i just can't stand being in a car when i haven't had any sleep.. it's like cia torture
18:22:38 <zzo38> In a program like Astrolog, in addition to be able to plot additional data on the calendar, and supporting artificial objects such as ISS, another features of interest would be more features related to navigation. Still, again, all features should be able to work with each other.
18:24:17 <monqy> maybe you can sleep in the car
18:24:27 <monqy> I've done that, it's pretty fun
18:25:16 <monqy> the fun part is not being bored because car or tired because tired
18:25:32 <monqy> "a great experience"
18:27:38 <kmc> just got back from eating thai food
18:27:45 <kmc> i'm in nyc for the weekend
18:27:59 <kmc> why nyc? just visiting friends
18:28:15 <cheater_> did you want to re-enact that movie you had me watch
18:28:42 <kmc> getting addicted to smack is not on my list of goals for this trip
18:28:55 <kmc> or going ass-to-ass
18:28:58 <kmc> indeed cheater_
18:30:03 <cheater_> what about getting gangrene and having your arm cut off while your best buddy is left in a high security prison washing cotton
18:30:51 <cheater_> you have lived in nyc as a teenager right?
18:30:53 <cheater_> which was like half a year ago
18:34:08 <kmc> i lived in NYC when i was 20 through 22
18:34:48 -!- MoALTz has joined.
18:35:39 <kmc> yeah i'll pass on the gangrene as well
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18:55:19 <fizzie> Twenteen through twenty-tween.
18:56:16 -!- rszeno has left.
18:56:35 <kmc> wouldn't it be tenteen through twelveteen?
18:56:57 <kmc> cheater_: did you at least like the music in the film
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18:59:56 <cheater_> kmc: i knew of kronos quartet long before
19:00:47 <cheater_> think of all the things we learned?
19:02:40 <cheater_> lol @ programming arduino with sound card: http://dangerousprototypes.com/wp-content/media/2011/09/audioino_programming_arduino_with_sound.jpg?
19:03:52 <cheater_> so kmc are you anywhere near the twin towers of babylon
19:04:26 <kmc> ok so it needs a special bootloader
19:04:34 <cheater_> by this i mean the 9/11 convention center
19:04:36 <kmc> i guess that's expected, and it's still kinda cool
19:05:01 <kmc> but you could just as well use V-USB with a similar part count
19:05:32 <kmc> in that sense http://www.pjrc.com/hub_isp/ is probably cooler
19:05:36 <kmc> V-USB is a software USB stack for AVR
19:05:44 <cheater_> yeah but this one you can always program from your walkman
19:05:48 <cheater_> just have different data tapes
19:06:00 <kmc> or your phone
19:06:25 <cheater_> better option: portable cassette player
19:06:35 <kmc> the hub thing requires a few more parts but no programmer
19:06:38 <cheater_> like one of those desktop ones
19:09:21 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:11:05 <kmc> cheater_: no i'm not near the freedom hole
19:11:10 <kmc> i'm in east harlem right now
19:11:23 <cheater_> does he program the stuff by turning voltage on and off?
19:11:30 <kmc> i used to live pretty close to the freedom hole
19:11:47 <kmc> 22 River Terrace, at the north end of Battery Park city
19:12:11 <kmc> about a 5 min walk to the WTC site
19:12:37 <kmc> in fact, on land created during the construction of the original WTC
19:13:08 <cheater_> i'll make sure to stalk you by calling up your landlord and requesting personal information
19:13:41 <cheater_> you moved in after it got torn down right?
19:14:05 <kmc> i lived in NYC from 2008 to 2010
19:14:25 <cheater_> right, the freedom fighter attack was in like what
19:14:41 <kmc> the building i lived in already existed at the time
19:14:56 <kmc> so our air vents were probably full of asbestos
19:17:50 <cheater_> so what's the green wire in usb?
19:18:00 <cheater_> i'm totally liking this article u linked me 2
19:18:04 <kmc> USB uses differential signaling
19:18:23 <kmc> there are two data lines; they switch off which one has the higher voltage
19:18:28 <kmc> indicating 0 or 1 by it
19:18:53 <cheater_> is green part of the differential pair?
19:19:46 <kmc> i believe the standard code is green and white for data, black for ground, red for +5V
19:20:01 <kmc> i don't remember which voltage pair is 0 and which is 1
19:20:17 <cheater_> meanwhile in ##electrollnics: <Prot> anyone know if 3d printers can print conductive material for leds, chip communication, etc? <cheater_> Prot: no. <Prot> cheater_: so if you try to design electronics, you have to soldier and wire everything manually?
19:20:53 <kmc> there has been some work with 3d printing electrical connections
19:20:54 <cheater_> kmc: i have no idea how he's getting pulses out the green line ???
19:20:59 <kmc> but home PCB fabrication is much easier
19:21:05 <kmc> also pro PCB fab is pretty cheap
19:21:38 <kmc> cheater_: read the sidebar on the right side of the page
19:21:47 <cheater_> you just do everything in ChinaPCB
19:24:42 <kmc> it's super slow
19:25:10 <cheater_> maybe he should instead make a Tempest based programmer
19:25:18 <kmc> i think a parallel port programmer has a comparable part count and is much faster
19:25:21 <kmc> but who has a parallel port these days
19:26:07 <cheater_> possibly a large parts count though
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19:30:57 <cheater_> kmc: i'm thinking you could possibly take an 8 bit DAC and bitbang through an audio port though
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19:32:55 <cheater_> or yet better: use left and right in differential mode. first start up by outputting nothing and charge a capacitor which will hold the DC voltage between the channels' respective zeros
19:32:56 <kmc> you need two outputs and one input
19:32:59 <nortti> Gregor: I only found three revisions of c2bf and all of them were made by you.
19:33:13 <cheater_> then you start outputting stuff in the signal
19:33:23 <cheater_> a comparator makes it either 0 or 1
19:33:34 <Gregor> nortti: Sounds about right.
19:33:56 <cheater_> and you have your 4 bits or whatever
19:33:59 <kmc> why can't you just use each channel as an independent output
19:34:08 <kmc> with a capacitor to low pass filter
19:34:33 <cheater_> think about what would happen if you had a very long string of 0's
19:34:56 <kmc> oh you'd need a diode too
19:35:04 <cheater_> i guess you could mitigate the issue by having a three-pulse code like this
19:35:06 <kmc> yeah cap + diode + resistor
19:35:13 <cheater_> where x is the bit you want to send
19:35:25 <kmc> then you can effectively control an output voltage
19:35:50 <kmc> to send a 1, you turn on an audio tone and charge the cap through the diode
19:35:53 <cheater_> wait why do you want an lpf there, you want a hpf there
19:36:01 <kmc> to send a 0, you turn it off and let the cap discharge through the resistor
19:36:09 <kmc> i think we're talking about different applications cheater_
19:36:19 <nortti> Gregor: has there been any other revisions of c2bf before revision 1 in trunk or have you put code written by enyone else repo?
19:36:19 <kmc> i'm talking about an iterface from an unprogrammed AVR to a sound card
19:36:29 <kmc> so fancy codes and the like are out
19:36:41 <cheater_> the problem is how to spit data out of the card
19:36:48 <kmc> whatever you put into the chip digitally has to conform to the AVR's programming state machine
19:36:56 <kmc> not some bootloader you write
19:37:21 <cheater_> every third bit goes to the avr programming state machine sadist
19:37:40 <kmc> you still need a counter circuit though
19:37:40 <cheater_> the other two bits get thrown away and are there just to make sure the signal is locally AC at every moment
19:37:54 <kmc> yeah but not a super common one
19:38:04 <kmc> i think my scheme would work better
19:38:08 <Gregor> <nortti> Gregor: has there been any other revisions of c2bf before revision 1 in trunk or have you put code written by enyone else repo? // no, no. I'm very careful about copyright headers, if there's code by anybody but me, it's marked as such.
19:38:10 <kmc> but i don't know how to do input
19:38:17 <kmc> because a microphone port won't detect DC levels
19:38:34 <cheater_> a demultiplexer can be used instead
19:38:41 <kmc> cheater_: my scheme doesn't have any ICs or transistors in the output path
19:39:43 <cheater_> you blink the LED to the webcam as input
19:39:50 <cheater_> you output a blinking square to the LDR
19:40:01 <cheater_> that's fucking minimal isn't it
19:40:21 <cheater_> you know it won't get any more ghetto than that
19:41:29 <kmc> i'm not sure, but hub_isp has it
19:42:14 <cheater_> how about using the numlock, scroll lock and capslock LEDs
19:42:54 <cheater_> and would take 5 hours to program a chip
19:43:05 <zzo38> What are you trying to make?
19:43:37 <cheater_> kmc: hey can't you use ethernet with some measurable amount of success in a ghetto circuit?
19:43:53 <cheater_> from what i remember ethernet really lends itself to ghetto interfaces
19:44:16 <kmc> i think that's false
19:44:26 <cheater_> what about banging out packets full of 1's or 0's
19:44:40 <cheater_> and putting that through an LPF
19:45:54 <cheater_> can you force an ethernet port to come on and send out frames, even if there was no layer 2 negotiation?
19:46:04 <zzo38> But, what exactly is it that you are trying to make these things for?
19:46:23 <cheater_> we're trying to make a minimal avr programmer
19:46:34 <cheater_> without the use of a parallel or serial port
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19:50:36 <nortti> Gregor: strip/bfstrip.c is written by Erik Bosman and it is under GPL2
19:51:28 <zzo38> The things I can think of are, audio port
19:51:58 <zzo38> You may need to do such things as adjust impedance and so on with resistors and other components
19:51:59 <nortti> Gregor: otherwise all files carry copyright notice that it is yours or doesn't have copyright rule
19:53:51 <cheater_> kmc: http://www.slashdong.org/2011/10/15/pen15-board/
19:53:53 <Gregor> bfstrip is a separate tool, so that shouldn't be a big deal. All the stuff that's mine is now ISC.
19:54:15 <kmc> cheater_: haha
19:54:50 <kmc> cute, but I'm not sure why a teledildonics board would be different from any other robotics board
19:56:12 <kmc> except for having the safety isolation of a legit medical device
19:56:15 <kmc> which this one clearly doesn't
19:56:29 <zzo38> I am not sure what other way there is best other than audio port; parallel port would probably work best but you say you cannot use that
19:56:49 <cheater_> zzo38: it's ok, the moment has passed
19:56:58 <cheater_> we're talking about teledildonics now apparently
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20:01:34 <cheater_> kmc: hey, i've been looking at my disk problem more. i think it may be that disk operations incur a noticable cost in cpu
20:01:39 <cheater_> any idea why that might be happening?
20:02:00 <kmc> DMA being disabled, but you checked that already
20:02:10 <kmc> does some kernel thread show up as using CPU in top
20:03:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
20:09:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:20:05 <kmc> why do you think it's a cpu cost
20:22:32 -!- xander345 has joined.
20:23:26 <HackEgo> welcome xander345? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:23:28 <ais523> HackEgo: behave yourself
20:23:34 <elliott> we get it right eventually
20:23:37 <HackEgo> xander345: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:23:37 <HackEgo> xander345: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:23:44 <ais523> I got it right first time, HackEgo was just being naughty
20:23:59 <HackEgo> cat: /bin/@: No such file or directory
20:24:06 <ais523> someone deleted it, that's what happened…
20:24:14 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:24:29 <elliott> nortti: Why did you delete quote 600?
20:24:43 <xander345> is the owner of esolangs.org here?
20:24:46 <HackEgo> 600) <Gregor> You know how the arrow pierces your skin, rearranging and randomizing vital internal structure? <Gregor> Monads are like that, only worse.
20:24:47 <elliott> ais523: why did you expect it's in /bin?
20:24:57 <nortti> elliott: because I was asked to
20:24:57 <elliott> unless you mean the domain; that's owned by Alan Dipert, but I control its DNS
20:24:59 <ais523> elliott: because I thought it was in /bin
20:25:06 <ais523> elliott: wow, you forgot the "the"
20:25:15 <nortti> ais523: what did @ do?
20:25:16 <elliott> ais523: I also forgot the capitals
20:25:59 <ais523> nortti: aim a message at someone
20:26:05 <elliott> nortti: oh, ignore shachaf when he tells people to delete quotes
20:26:06 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ $_ = join " ", @ARGV; if (s/^([^ ]*) +([^ ]*) +//) { print "$1: "; exec $2, $_; }
20:26:08 <ais523> forgot it didn't start in /
20:26:19 <elliott> xander345: this place is usually less hectic than this
20:26:33 <ais523> elliott: it /was/ less hectic than this until he/she joined
20:26:35 <ais523> I'm guessing he from the username
20:26:37 <elliott> xander345: anyway, I'm available for any esolangs.org related question and/or request
20:26:43 <nortti> elliott: where did you get the number 384?
20:26:59 <elliott> nortti: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/f21648f87766, the revision prior to the delquote
20:27:07 <elliott> although `revert -2 would have worked too, I think
20:27:47 <nortti> elliott: oh yes. I forgot hackego's PWD was repo
20:28:43 <kmc> ┌────────────────────────────┐
20:28:46 <kmc> │ you can't ignore my techno │
20:28:49 <kmc> └────────────────────────────┘
20:28:54 <kmc> ┌────────────────────────────┐
20:28:57 <kmc> │ you can't ignore my techno │
20:29:00 <kmc> └────────────────────────────┘
20:30:13 -!- xander345 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
20:30:49 <elliott> xander345: i'm glad to have helped you as the owner of esolangs.org
20:32:03 <elliott> Someone needs to say "yes" so I can go silent for the next five minutes as a hilarious joke. :(
20:32:11 <ais523> it wouldn't be that funny
20:32:16 <ais523> and you know how to check the access list
20:32:18 <kmc> if you see the police... warn a brother!
20:33:47 <kmc> ┌──────────┐
20:33:47 <kmc> │ cheater_ │
20:33:47 <kmc> └──────────┘
20:33:58 <Kray> _______________________________
20:33:58 <Kray> < Esoteric languages fuck yeah! >
20:33:59 <Kray> -------------------------------
20:34:04 <Kray> \ (oo)\_____/_\ \
20:34:15 <Kray> hmm, I think that broke
20:34:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
20:34:42 <kmc> your cow is so bad it killed PH
20:36:26 <kmc> it's a butfuckt cow
20:36:28 <Kray> should I try again
20:36:36 <ais523> There are no Easter Eggs in this program.
20:36:53 -!- ddd has joined.
20:37:00 <HackEgo> ddd: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:37:20 -!- ddd has quit (Client Quit).
20:37:23 <ais523> meh, plain gdb is better
20:37:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unwelcome: not found
20:37:39 <ais523> oh, ddd = xander345, btw
20:37:42 <fizzie> ais523: I suppose you know aptitude --verbose moo.
20:37:48 <ais523> fizzie: no, let me try that
20:37:56 <elliott> ais523: i'm not sure what is "up with them"
20:38:01 <fizzie> You can keep adding more -v's up to some point.
20:38:18 <elliott> presumably ais523 has also tried apt-get moo
20:38:39 <ais523> elliott: indeed, that's what I was referencing, I wasn't sure if it was the same cow or not
20:38:58 <kmc> that cow is from cowsay
20:39:26 <ais523> incidentally, ddate seems to have disappeared from the repos altogether
20:39:36 <ais523> it's no longer in coreutils, and it isn't anywhere else either
20:39:56 <ais523> Sat Sep 6829 21:39:47 BST 1993
20:39:59 <ais523> that one's still there, though
20:40:18 <kmc> what's it?
20:40:23 <ais523> although not in coreutils
20:40:32 <fizzie> There was the bugreport about removing ddate, where it was (IIRC) first closed as "no, we won't remove it", but then they flipflopped and did.
20:40:39 <ais523> kmc: sdate's a library injection thing that causes date-related syscalls to return values in september 1993
20:40:48 <nortti> tazpkg doesn't have cow hidden but my own pkgmgr has if cowsay is installed
20:40:55 <ais523> kmc: because september 1993 never ended
20:41:18 <kmc> stupid though
20:41:23 <zzo38> I suppose it would allow you to see what happens in case of strange values returned by date-related syscalls
20:41:37 <elliott> how can you tell http://www.df7cb.de/projects/sdate/mutt.png stupid
20:41:38 <ais523> zzo38: indeed, many programs act oddly or brokenly under sdate
20:41:49 <elliott> (bonus: it does the same to outgoing Date headers)
20:42:59 <kmc> someone made a library injection thing for Random Standard Time too
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20:43:09 <ais523> kmc: is that just random timezones?
20:43:19 <kmc> i'm not sure if RST would fit in POSIX locale framework
20:43:30 <kmc> it's the timezone used in Random Hall at MIT
20:43:32 <zzo38> Does sdate have an option to change the reference month, or to do other things to date syscalls? (Possibly, add these features to same program including the ones for Random Standard Time and so on)
20:43:41 <kmc> which is really not a timezone but an alternate way of writing time
20:44:14 <kmc> where hours 00 through 05 are spelled 24 through 29
20:44:26 <kmc> so that the day rolls over at a time when fewer people are awake
20:44:27 <fizzie> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=149321 "tags 149321 + wontfix; ddate is staying, and as indicated, 180737 is already fixed." Then there's #650321 where util-linux made ddate optional and people were asking Debian folks to add the --enable-ddate to the package. Too bored to search for when it finally went away.
20:44:59 <ais523> zzo38: it lets you change the reference month, but nothing else
20:45:23 <ais523> fizzie: splitting it into a different package is an obvious thing to do
20:46:17 <fizzie> Possibly, though it's upstreamistically part of util-linux. Or at least was.
20:46:34 <fizzie> Quite a lot of people have objected to it, especially it being part of the base install.
20:46:43 <fizzie> Like #583503 "Subject: ddate: this useless joke program has no place in a base debian install" -- "I do not want this program on my machines and it has outstanding i18n/l10n bugs."
20:48:15 <fizzie> There was a bit in 2003 in Debian when util-linux 2.11z-3 "Drop ddate. Closes: #149321, #174459, #180737" and then seven hours later util-linux 2.11z-4 "Put ddate back in, just to keep the natives quiet".
20:48:45 <fizzie> But I see it's totally gone in latest util-linux versions even without an entry in the changelog. Perhaps the upstream dropped it.
20:50:39 <fizzie> Oh, I was looking at an old changelog.
20:52:05 <fizzie> In fact util-linux 2.20.1-2 in debian stable says "Re-enable ddate, disabled by default upstream in 2.20". But a search for the file name in Debian unstable doesn't find it, so I don't quite know what's up with it.
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20:53:25 <kmc> it's much easier to stab than to unstab
20:59:57 <cheater_> kmc, i just can't ignore your techno
21:01:01 <cheater_> <kmc> why do you think it's a cpu cost < because on youtube the videos are stuttering while they're caching. also, the caching is much slower while i'm doing playback.
21:03:33 <cheater_> kmc, have you finished the game continuity yet
21:04:02 <cheater_> not cooler than portal2 though which i haven't pld yet
21:04:11 <cheater_> http://continuitygame.com/playcontinuity.html
21:04:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: im bring it
21:04:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: los euclidaen los is bad hi
21:05:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Jesus christ monqy just tell me why using Euclidean LOS for lighting is Bad.
21:05:29 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:05:46 <monqy> which aspects are euclidean here
21:08:02 <elliott> you can have euclidean circlelos and euclidean squarelos
21:08:13 <monqy> the shape of the lines i assume he means, not how they're bounded
21:08:26 <elliott> euclidean circlelos looks like an approximation of a circle on a euclidean display, euclidean squarelos looks like a square on a euclidean display
21:09:13 <monqy> for the shape of the lines: i'm sure i have my reasons for disliking it but the only ones i can recall at the moment are "wow it feels ugly and i just don't like it" and "it's harder for players to predict/measure when something will be in los from a certain position"
21:09:27 <Phantom_Hoover> LOS can't look like either a square or circle, it's just a line.
21:09:57 <elliott> los is the region around you that you can see
21:10:07 <elliott> (you still see a map around the rest if you've been there but it's dimmed and you don't get any updates to it)
21:10:24 <elliott> in crawl it's a circle so if you stand in a featureless plane you'll see an illuminated circle-approximation around you
21:10:37 <elliott> and can't see or target anything outside (and the same applies to monsters)
21:10:44 <Phantom_Hoover> monqy, well fair point wrt prediction, but in this case it's the lighting engine: you don't really need to be able to predict lines of sight, just make them look natural.
21:11:05 <monqy> Phantom_Hoover: you do need to predict lines of sight for ducking around corners to avoid monsters, etc.
21:11:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Waitwaitwait, you were doing this for the /player's/ LOS?
21:11:20 <elliott> los is a very game-relevant thing
21:11:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: player and monsters
21:12:15 <elliott> im not defending my algorithm but
21:12:23 <elliott> im undefending a euclidean algorithm
21:13:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously it can be unintuitive and it's a hack, but it's still closest to what you expect.
21:13:40 <elliott> in crawl i just take it on faith that where i'm running will get me out of los of the spellcaster/ranged-attack enemy
21:13:45 <monqy> "closest to what you expect"?
21:14:21 <monqy> maybe i'm weird but i wouldn't expect a game on a square grid to approximate euclidean stuff
21:16:28 <monqy> something between "something based on the distance metric" and "no expectations because everyone runs to euclidean so it'd be unwise to expect people do things other than that"
21:17:28 <Phantom_Hoover> The thing is that when you have a distance metric without even remotely unique shortest paths calculating lines of sight is inevitably arbitrary.
21:19:37 <Phantom_Hoover> And the Euclidean shortest path seems to be the most intuitive one.
21:21:06 <monqy> doesn't seem like that to me but whatever. if you're basing this on your intuition i don't think there's anything i can do to stop you???
21:23:21 <elliott> that was a live replay of the infamous 2012 monqy–Phantom_Hoover "battle of the losses"
21:23:37 <elliott> within a week the human race was extinct :(
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21:24:58 <kmc> ┌───────────────────────┐
21:24:58 <kmc> │ whoever wins, we lose │
21:24:59 <kmc> └───────────────────────┘
21:25:32 <Phantom_Hoover> monqy, well I have to admit I've never played Crawl so I don't know the gameplay considerations beyond having seen a similar system in Dwarf Fortress.
21:27:04 <elliott> sounds like you should play crawl!!!!
21:31:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: most people play online
21:32:04 <elliott> if you have putty you can play the same as everyone else does!!
21:33:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: putty is for windows !!!
21:34:41 * ais523 suggests Big Idea to improve Unity on Unity mailing list
21:34:58 <ais523> I have some small ideas too, but I want to get the big one done first to make the small ones more palatable
21:35:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i think windows 3 had telnet
21:36:40 <elliott> do you know anything about telnet
21:37:02 <elliott> monqy: ph is going to play crawl lets watch
21:37:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I know that it didn't work on Windows when I telnetted into that crawl server.
21:38:47 <elliott> crawl.akrasiac.org may be faster if you're in america!!!
21:39:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: also choose "trunk"
21:39:33 <elliott> dont play stable versions theyre so unfashionable
21:39:41 <elliott> i was going to say except for 4.1 but
21:40:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: we,re waitinge
21:40:40 <ais523> I am enthusiastic enough about Unity to write patches for it /even though it's written in C++/!
21:40:57 <elliott> ais523: what was the big idaees
21:41:11 <ais523> elliott: allowing you to pin things more precisely than applications
21:41:27 <elliott> I don't think they'd want to move away from an application-centric model
21:41:41 <ais523> so I can pin a "compose email" window, or a "terminal running telnet to nethack.alt.org", or a particular folder in my filesystem (it's pretty shocking that you can't do that already, btw)
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21:41:58 <ais523> and it's not moving away from an application-centric model; it's just blurring the boundaries of what an application is
21:42:04 <ais523> do you consider gmail to be an application?
21:42:18 <elliott> I'm not agreeing with their position
21:42:23 <ais523> I'm arguing that both gmail and chromium should be considered applications, even though one runs within the other
21:42:25 <elliott> but "application" is an artificial boundary anyway
21:42:33 <elliott> ais523: chromium already supports saving as an application, anyway
21:42:35 <ais523> yep, I'm just making the boundary configurable
21:42:45 <elliott> my point is that the application-centric ideology is incoherent
21:42:47 <ais523> elliott: indeed, but the OS doesn't know that
21:42:55 <elliott> you can't attempt to disprove that by telling me it's arbitrary
21:43:02 <ais523> I'm not trying to disprove you
21:43:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: im waitinge!
21:43:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: were waitinge
21:43:18 <ais523> I'm trying to make it a little more coherent by letting the user specify where their mental boundaries are
21:43:42 <elliott> ais523: I didn't say it wasn't an improvement
21:43:56 <elliott> but since they hold an application-centric ideology, they will probably be quite tied to the current definition of application
21:43:58 <ais523> are we disagreeing with each other or not?
21:44:05 <elliott> so I suspect they'll not be fond of the change, at least to start with
21:44:10 <elliott> I may be overly-cynical and proven wrong
21:44:26 <ais523> elliott: well, the fun thing is, it's possible to do that already, but with a lot of manual work in config files, and it's buggy
21:44:48 <ais523> (to be precise, you have to use your new manual files to start things rather than starting them from places other than the launcher, e.g. a terminal window)
21:45:15 <ais523> "you can do this already let's make it not so stupidly user-unfriendly" is the sort of line I expect to work well on the Unity people
21:45:24 <elliott> monqy: recommend Phantom_Hoover a combo or somethinge
21:45:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: demonspawn is ok
21:45:32 <monqy> elliott: you recommend
21:45:37 <elliott> maybe berserker or abyssal knight
21:46:30 <kmc> i wrote a program to put stuff in boxes
21:46:32 <ais523> btw, it's kind-of fun when you accidentally introduce a segfault into your window manager
21:46:50 <elliott> no Phantom_Hoover you have to actually playe now
21:46:59 <ais523> I've had quite a bit of practice at recovering from that; alt-f1 is useful, so is having lots of windows open that can run arbitrary shell commands (Emacs, etc)
21:49:11 <ais523> did you know you can start a window manager from a Linux (i.e. non-GUI) terminal and have it work on the X display? (actually, probably you did)
21:49:33 <nortti> ais523: what wm are you using and how do you manage to segfault it?
21:49:47 <ais523> nortti: compiz, and by patching Unity (which is implemented as a compiz plugin)
21:50:47 <monqy> have you tried naie elliott
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21:52:36 <nortti> ais523: did you know that you can start X without anything that starts when using startx by typing X (or Xorg or Xvesa or Xfvdev depending on your system)
21:52:55 <ais523> found that out while developing weboflies
21:53:15 <ais523> or Xvfb if you don't want it to contact your hardware at all
21:54:14 <nortti> ais523: have you used Xvfb?
21:54:35 <ais523> I haven't yet used it in an environment where it doesn't automatically segfault
21:54:49 <ais523> due to mapping things too close to the growing end of the stack
21:54:56 <ais523> need to fix that weboflies bug…
21:58:00 <cheater_> kmc: what do you mean put stuff in boxes?
21:58:08 <cheater_> kmc: btw, http://jimblog.me/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/c++map2.png
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22:03:48 <kmc> huh i didn't know about std::rope
22:05:54 <ais523> elliott: well, someone on the mailing list seems to agree with me, but that's not very surprising, there are lost of people on the list
22:09:20 <ais523> there were a bunch of people trying to persuade the Unity devs to add click-to-minimize for applications with one window open, which would be massively confusing and inconsistent, so I can see why they said no
22:09:41 <ais523> but in a diplomatic way, along the lines of "we want that to do something else in the next version, so there's no point in changing it now"
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22:50:15 <cheater_> kmc: well obviously i linked you to it, which means i know more about c++ than you!
22:50:23 <cheater_> kmc: i will now perform seppuku.
22:52:06 <ais523> hmm, what's the easiest way to get a list of all functions in curses? nm? the man page (I think there's a list there)?
22:52:33 <elliott> bash keys randomly and press enter every sixth letter or so
22:53:08 <elliott> you'd be surprised how effective that would be
22:53:45 <cheater_> kmc: did u know of the "select" keyword in bash
22:53:50 <cheater_> select f in aaa bbb ccc ddd ; do echo $f ; break ; done
22:54:00 <ais523> anyway, here is my Grand Plan for Unity: https://lists.launchpad.net/unity-design/msg09410.html
22:54:40 <elliott> ais523: it's Gmail, not GMail, by the way
22:55:00 <ais523> perhaps I'll get it right in the future
22:55:05 <ais523> actually, it's Googlemail, in the UK
22:55:11 <elliott> it's been Gmail everywhere for years
22:55:18 <ais523> oh, did they manage to buy a license?
22:55:31 <elliott> or sued the company out of existence or something
22:55:37 <elliott> or killed everyone who works there
22:55:59 <elliott> hmm, I just realised how weird it is for an originally-Google Google product to not start with Google
22:56:54 <elliott> ais523: btw, how could you pin a nethack server with a file?
22:57:11 <ais523> elliott: you'd pin "telnet nethack.alt.org"
22:57:19 <elliott> that's rather hopelessly vague
22:57:22 <ais523> this is actually technically possible right now, but you have to write the .desktop file by hand
22:57:25 <ais523> and no, that's a shell command
22:57:28 <elliott> why not simply pin files directly, and open them in the relevant application?
22:57:38 <elliott> so you'd pin an .sh for a terminal, or a folder for Nautilus
22:57:55 <elliott> well, make it a URI, so you can do the browser thing too
22:58:01 <ais523> elliott: because if you do "telnet nethack.alt.org" in a terminal /not/ via the .sh file, it wouldn't be detected as the thing you'd pinned
22:58:05 <elliott> everything /already supports/ opening a URI in an appropriate application
22:58:14 <elliott> and you could use telnet://nethack.alt.org/
22:58:17 <ais523> likewise, things like the compose email window in Evolution, I want to be able to pin that
22:58:28 <elliott> ais523: err, that's going to require /way/ too much cooperation with applications to work
22:58:31 <Lumpio-> What's the point of "nethack servers"
22:58:32 <ais523> and it can't reasonably be described with a URI, /and/ I want it to be detected if you click on "new mail" in Evolution
22:58:39 <Lumpio-> They got something that the usual distribution doesn't?
22:58:46 <elliott> Lumpio-: you can't cheat, and people can watch
22:58:49 <ais523> Lumpio-: people can watch you, it proves you aren't cheating, you can get other people's bones
22:58:54 <elliott> more or less every serious nethack player plays on servers
22:59:04 <elliott> (except for really oldschool people, I guess)
22:59:04 <Lumpio-> Spectating is a good point
22:59:09 <ais523> elliott: the "/way/ too much cooperation with applications" is the route I'm going through
22:59:25 <ais523> I don't think it's that much of a problem, really
22:59:33 <ais523> have you seen how much cooperation already exists?
22:59:38 <elliott> ais523: seems like mine gives 80% of the benefits with 20% of the effort
22:59:54 <elliott> ais523: and your original email describes my scheme
22:59:57 <ais523> elliott: nah, pinning the compose mail window (so it doesn't group with my inbox) is actually the change that I most want
23:00:00 <elliott> you don't say anything about shell lines or anything, just files
23:00:09 <ais523> I use "file" in a general sense, perhaps that's misleading
23:00:18 <elliott> a compose mail window is not a file
23:00:35 <ais523> which implies it's badly named
23:00:44 <elliott> ais523: how can Unity know how to open the compose mail window in Evolution, just because you tell it about the window?
23:01:03 <ais523> elliott: because Evolution tells it how
23:01:04 <elliott> it'd require a /lot/ more code in applications to handle this sort of stuff
23:01:23 <elliott> ais523: for every single window Evolution can open?
23:01:32 <ais523> if you think this is unreasonable, try, say, right-clicking on Chromium, or Nautilus, or Firefox in Unity
23:01:33 <elliott> the translation to the codepath required to open them won't be trivial
23:01:52 <elliott> that's much less code than would be required for this
23:01:58 <ais523> and I wouldn't bother doing it for, say, preferences dialogs
23:02:14 <ais523> alternatively, I guess you could pin the inbox and then have all the other windows Evolution opens under Evolution rather than Inbox (Evolution)
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23:32:50 <shachaf> elliott: Why? It was a bad quote.
23:34:42 <ais523> elliott: anyway, the work will need to be done anyway so that you can pin files from having them open in applications, rather than just from Nautilus or whatever
23:35:03 <ais523> /me: making things slightly more usable even if it takes five times the effort
23:52:43 <ais523> bleh, why does tcgetpgrp only work on a terminal you're currently connected to?
23:53:30 <ais523> I can understand wanting to compare users, but not to compare controlling terminals
23:53:42 <ais523> why can't my program on terminal 1 check to see which program is currently running on terminal 2/
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00:31:36 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbXfyH0rt3M
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00:51:48 <xander345> i wanted to see if the owner of esolangs wanted to do a link exchagen with http://codecompiler.info
00:52:44 <ais523> elliott: you're still here, right?
00:53:10 <elliott> xander345: can you specify what you mean by link exchange exactly?
00:54:00 <xander345> well because i'm adding support for more and more esolangs on codecompiler we could link to each others site as both of our visitors care about esolangs
00:54:26 <elliott> hmm, wouldn't linking the compiler from the pages of the languages it supports be more reasonable?
00:56:01 <xander345> it only does about 5 right now but it's really easy to add more so we can have more links with each other
01:01:37 <elliott> well, anybody can add relevant external links to pages on the wiki...
01:03:24 <xander345> are they dofollow and would you like me to put a link esolangs.org on codecompiler.info ?
01:05:07 <ais523> mediawiki nofollows links to avoid spamming
01:06:39 <elliott> and the whole of esolangs.org runs on MediaWiki
01:08:11 <elliott> xander345: how many visitors (or at least hits) does your site get a month, anyway? esolangs.org is relatively high-traffic (for a small site, at least)
01:10:51 <xander345> it was getting about 500 a day when it worked but now that it's been on a sever for 2 months where it doesn't actually work the traffic has droped but i'm getting a vps for it in the next few days and it should get backup and i'm adding a register system where you get to complie more per day if you refer more people
01:14:13 <xander345> if hits aren't visitors what are they? i always though they were the same as visitors
01:14:24 <elliott> hits are individual page loads; visitors are usually counted by unique IPs
01:14:28 <elliott> hits are a lot easier to count
01:14:58 <elliott> I just checked; esolangs.org gets about 23000-26000 hits per day; it'll be trickier to get the number of visits, but I'll try and write an awk script to do it...
01:17:34 <elliott> OK, we get about 1250-1380 visitors per day
01:20:08 <xander345> i'll put codecompiler links in all the languages it supports and add one in the navigation bar
01:21:24 <xander345> the one where it says Home Esolangs Codepanel.net About Us Login / Register
01:21:35 <shachaf> kmc: Did you ever get that Stripe shirt?
01:23:02 <elliott> the wiki already has some links to your site, actually
01:23:11 <elliott> I suspect there might be quite a lot of overlap between your visitors and our visitors, really
01:23:24 <elliott> where are you getting the visitor count statistic from?
01:23:36 <elliott> mine is from the nginx access logs with duplicate IPs removed
01:25:34 <elliott> anyway, I think removing the nofollow (which I'm not entirely sure how to do, anyway, and which would require modifying LocalSettings.php) in return for visitors might count as an ad, which I cannot add to the site
01:27:52 <elliott> xander345: hmm, codecompiler.info fails to compile the cell test in http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/tests.b
01:28:01 <elliott> I'm not sure what the problem is; perhaps because I didn't select an OS? when I do that, the esolangs list disappears
01:29:07 <xander345> yeh it's because i'm getting a new server in a few days so until then nothing will compiler
01:32:35 <elliott> xander345: out of curiosity, what sandboxing are you using?
01:34:23 <xander345> it doesn't need one because it doesn't actually run any of the programs, people have uploaded virus and scripts and it compiles them and nothing else happens, everybody was telling me they could take it down easily but they were ALL wrong
01:34:47 <xander345> i do not let anybody understand how the site works
01:35:21 <elliott> well, you support D; D supports running code at compile time
01:35:28 <elliott> and security through obscurity is generally considered a bad idea
01:36:42 <elliott> ok, but when it does... :)
01:37:27 <xander345> codecompiler controls how it is compiled all the users controls is what is in the file
01:37:48 <elliott> right: D lets you run code at compile-time
01:37:55 <elliott> just by writing a code file
01:39:31 <xander345> i'm going to put this in: http://php.net/manual/en/runkit.sandbox.php before re-release
01:39:48 <elliott> that just sandboxes PHP itself, not any process it runs
01:39:58 <elliott> you'll probably want UMLBox or a virtual machine for the latter
01:40:07 <elliott> (UMLBox is what our EgoBot and HackEgo bots, which allow execution of arbitrary code, work)
01:40:11 <elliott> (UMLBox is what our EgoBot and HackEgo bots, which allow execution of arbitrary code, use)
01:42:47 <elliott> it's a standalone program, so probably use whatever mechanism you currently use to call the compilers
01:42:48 <elliott> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/umlbox
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01:46:57 <elliott> xander345: Anyway, if you'd like to get nofollow removed from links, bring it up on the community portal's talk page to see what the community thinks; I would be breaking trust of several people if I were to do it out of my own volition rather than the community's.
01:47:29 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal
01:47:46 <xander345> i went to esolangs and saw that they were all dofollow links anyway
01:48:08 <elliott> external links aren't: <a rel="nofollow" class="external text" href="http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/db/">
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02:18:40 <ais523> hmm, have I spoken in here about my love of people sequence-breaking live-action gameshows? it isn't really the right channel…
02:20:46 <Gregor> How could there be a better channel?
02:21:00 <Gregor> Although I wonder what game shows can be sequence-broken ...
02:21:10 <Gregor> (I accidentally sequence-broke Portal 2 and caused a bizarre plot hole in the process!)
02:22:13 <ais523> Gregor: typically action ones where the puzzle is basically "get from A to B" or "starting at A get item X" and there's a bunch of obstacles that are meant to be combined creatively to solve the problem
02:22:47 <ais523> the sequence breaks normally involve holding onto things you weren't intended to hold on (one I saw today involved hooks on the ceiling that you were meant to hang a walkway from, instead the contestant just held onto the hooks and swung across the ceilng)
02:23:10 <ais523> or alternatively, gaining more height than expected (reaching things you weren't expected to reach by jumping, or by standing on the shoulders of a partner rather than sitting on them)
02:24:18 <ais523> I'm surprised nobody's beaten one of the puzzles where you're meant to retrieve a code to unlock something by brute-forcing the code
02:24:30 <ais523> it seems doable if you recover a few digits but not all of them
02:25:01 <coppro> depending on the way the game is presented, it may not be doable
02:25:14 <coppro> since it may be seen as a rules violation
02:25:16 <ais523> it's pretty rare, and typically fixed in future runnings of the show
02:25:28 <ais523> I like shows which don't penalise people for unintended solutions
02:25:50 <ais523> although you're right, the show's producers could arbitrarily forbid things if they liked
02:26:08 <ais523> (that's particularly obnoxious in the UK version of Gladiators (the US version is known as American Gladiators in the US))
02:26:20 <coppro> the question I would say comes down to whether failure to follow instructions is a violation
02:26:26 <ais523> a whole load of people getting disqualified for not going about the events the exact way they were supposed to
02:26:39 <coppro> like in Survivor, the challenges are described as "do X, then Y, then the first person to do Z wins"
02:26:47 <ais523> well, in the cases I was talking about, there weren't explicit instructions, you were meant to figure it out
02:27:07 <coppro> it could be interpreted as either "you must do X and Y and then Z" or "you must do Z. X and Y are the suggested and intented means."
02:27:24 <coppro> you definitely should not have invisible rules
02:27:38 <ais523> oh, in the cases where sequence-breaking was allowed
02:27:42 <ais523> not the cases where it was forbidden
02:28:33 <coppro> although my comment about Survivor's instructions stands. Are they rules or suggestions?
02:29:05 <coppro> watching closely tends to indicate they are rules, but they don't show that much on TV
02:29:08 <ais523> I haven't really watched Survivor much, btw; it's not very popular in the UK so doesn't get shown much
02:29:28 <ais523> it was shown more in Canada, but French subtitles really throw me off following English speech, for some reason
02:30:08 <ais523> do the TV channels vary in language composition from province to province/city to city?
02:30:21 <ais523> it seems unlikely that the TV in Ottawa is significantly different to the rest of Ontario
02:30:42 <ais523> there weren't French subtitles on everything, just on some things (and some things were in French outright)
02:32:02 <coppro> French shows and even subtitles are quite rare elsewhere.
02:32:28 <coppro> but the National Capital Region is definitely one of the most bilingual areas of the country
02:32:43 <coppro> Montreal and most of New Brunswick being the others
02:32:49 <ais523> it is really incredibly bilingual
02:33:02 <coppro> having not visited them all, I can't say which is most
02:33:16 <ais523> it's kind-of funny, really, given that pretty much everyone there knows both English /and/ French it's not quite clear how they generally choose to communicate
02:33:19 <coppro> but certainly all the public service is bilingual, and Ottawa is largely public service
02:33:24 <ais523> presumably the first person to speak picks a language and other people go with it
02:33:44 <ais523> I'm surprised that the languages haven't got mixed together there
02:33:53 <ais523> people using French words in English sentences, etc
02:33:57 <coppro> it's an interesting study in Parliament of the various approaches to speaking
02:34:06 <ais523> or perhaps they have, just didn't to me because I only spoke in English
02:34:13 <coppro> I don't think so as much
02:34:30 <ais523> (and my British accent probably betrayed the fact that I don't actually know much French)
02:34:32 <coppro> A lot of the bilingualism is for work, not cultural, reasons
02:34:44 <Gregor> I hate when it's 10:30 and I realize I didn't eat dinner X_X
02:34:56 <coppro> There are some English loanwords in Québecois French, but not that many the other way
02:35:07 <coppro> ("c'est ok" is a particularly egregious one)
02:35:08 <ais523> Gregor: am or pm? presumably pm, if you're talking about now
02:35:27 <coppro> it's even pronounced "kay" rather than "kah"
02:35:39 <ais523> also, I like the way you typed the é but not the ç
02:35:51 <coppro> forgot about the cedilla there :)
02:36:16 <ais523> do you have a ç key on your keyboard?
02:37:08 <ais523> (meanwhile, I conclude that Canada is actually too large for my mind to comprehend)
02:37:19 <ais523> (to be fair, even the UK is close to large enough for that)
02:37:49 <ais523> (and it isn't very large)
02:39:20 <Gregor> <ais523> Gregor: am or pm? presumably pm, if you're talking about now // yes, PM
02:41:01 <ais523> Gregor: and by "dinner" you mean evening meal?
02:42:36 * ais523 wonders how large Ottawa is compared to, say, London
02:42:40 <ais523> I imagine it's smaller, but am not sure
02:43:51 <coppro> ais523: in Parliament, you get the Bloc, who always speak French to make a point, the Westerners, who can't speak French so always speak English, the MPs who aren't super-comfortable with their non-preferred language so they will only speak it in response to a question in that language, out of courtesy, and the MPs who are confident in both and switch often, even in the same speech. By convention, the Speaker is always the last kind, and ...
02:43:57 <coppro> ... also by convention, the Deputy Speaker does not have the same native language as the Speaker, although the Deputy Speaker obeys the same conventions while speaking.
02:44:31 <ais523> heh, that must be quite hard to follow
02:44:57 <ais523> I looked at the parliament TV channel a bit in Canada; they were speaking in English at the time, but I couldn't really understand what they were saying anyway
02:45:11 <ais523> I understood the individual points, but it was a very nomicky bit of recursive procedure
02:45:15 <ais523> rather than actual lawmaking
02:45:15 <coppro> In Ottawa, was it English, French, or floor audio?
02:45:23 <coppro> yeah, it's gotten particularly bad lately
02:45:44 <ais523> oh, what I was watching was in English
02:45:51 <ais523> but I didn't watch enough of it to know if it'd be in French at some point
02:46:31 <ais523> that makes sense, really
02:47:06 <coppro> floor audio is what they call the feed with no translation
02:47:15 <coppro> MPs have earpieces they can use to listen to the live translators
02:47:43 <ais523> hmm, I imagine that most countries don't have multilingual governments
02:47:48 <ais523> but Canada seems to deal with that quite well
02:47:54 <coppro> Yeah. It's pretty amazing, really.
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02:48:25 <coppro> And they produce bilingual transcripts by the next day.
02:48:48 <ais523> so, I guess the real question is why Quebec hasn't become independent yet; do they not want to leave, or does the rest of the country not want them to go?
02:49:07 <coppro> apparently visiting parliamentary delegations are consistently impressed by the turnaround time much less the turnaround time in two languages
02:49:30 <coppro> It came to referendum twice and came very very close to passing the second time
02:49:30 <ais523> well, if it's being translated anyway, transcripts for two languages are only twice as hard as transcripts for one
02:49:41 <ais523> as they can just transcript the translated audio
02:49:49 <ais523> coppro: referendum across the whole country, or across just Quebec?
02:50:16 <coppro> yeah, but they need to be made sure to be accurate, and the live translation might not be so accurate.
02:50:35 <ais523> it might be hard to actually translate it, sometimes
02:50:36 <coppro> the second referendum in particular was panned for being particularly badly-worded
02:50:53 <ais523> <Douglas Hofstadter> "This English sentence is hard to translate into French."
02:51:21 <coppro> feelings across Canada tend to vary roughly linearly with distance from Québec
02:51:40 <ais523> in the UK, there's actually a government body responsible for wording referendums
02:51:51 <ais523> I didn't really like their wording on the single transferable vote issue
02:52:00 <ais523> but at least it wasn't as bad as some of the ones they considered
02:52:12 <ais523> and there was a PDF online explaining their reasoning (with focus groups backing it up!)
02:52:35 <coppro> plenty of people feel that Québec is an important part of Canada and they'd rather keep it (msyelf included)
02:52:56 <coppro> there is some sentiment that they're a bit of whiners and/or get special treatment and we'd be better off without them
02:53:10 <coppro> but in my experience it is usually more of a "fine, let them go, see how well they do without the rest of us"
02:53:16 <coppro> rather than a "yeah let's get rid of them"
02:53:23 <coppro> not that the latter don't exist, they just aren't very common
02:54:22 <coppro> There was a Supreme Court case trying to determine if Québec could secede unilaterally at some point, I think around the second referendum
02:54:41 <coppro> The outcome was basically "they can't do so unilaterally, but if they voted to, then they couldn't just be ignored"
02:54:49 <coppro> so both sides claimed it as a victory
02:54:54 <ais523> were they /trying/ to secede unilaterally? or was it a just-in-case thing?
02:55:12 <coppro> the proponents of the referendum sure would have like it to be unilateral
02:55:39 <ais523> and I guess the answer is, that if they /did/ secede unilaterally, then they wouldn't consider the supreme court judgement binding on them anyway
02:56:05 <coppro> since then, the Clarity Act was passed, which basically sets up a minimum standard of referendum for secession, and then commits the governments to working out how it would actually work should a vote succeed
02:56:42 <ais523> reminds me a bit of the law in the UK, which says that a union can't go on strike unless its members vote for one
02:57:02 <ais523> I think it's part of the measures taken to avoid a repeat of the infamous miner's strike several decades ago
02:57:10 <coppro> (4) For the purpose of subsection (3), a clear expression of the will of the population of a province that the province cease to be part of Canada could not result from
02:57:13 <coppro> (a) a referendum question that merely focuses on a mandate to negotiate without soliciting a direct expression of the will of the population of that province on whether the province should cease to be part of Canada; or
02:57:15 <ais523> the basic idea is to avoid coercing people into striking, while still letting them do so if they want to
02:57:17 <coppro> (b) a referendum question that envisages other possibilities in addition to the secession of the province from Canada, such as economic or political arrangements with Canada, that obscure a direct expression of the will of the population of that province on whether the province should cease to be part of Canada.
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03:03:09 <ais523> clearly, if you want a referendum to pass, you just give the yes option and /two/ no options
03:03:13 <ais523> so that the no options dilute each other
03:06:27 <coppro> they should make a voting reform referendum with a number of options, using AV :P
03:08:17 <zzo38> That isn't proper! The vote should just be yes/no, possibly with comments if they are needed?
03:08:32 <coppro> ais523: Puerto Rico actually has that problem
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03:10:14 <ais523> meanwhile, apparently my IRC client juts segfaulted
03:19:41 <coppro> Puerto Rico has had referendums in the past where they are offered a) statehood b) status quo c) independence
03:20:08 <ais523> to favour the status quo?
03:20:19 <coppro> My understanding is there are a fair number who would prefer a or c to b, but a and c invariably split that vote, and the indeciseveness means that the status quo gets chosen by default
03:20:40 <coppro> I think they're planning a new one that first says "should we accept the status quo" and then if the answer is no, they will do another to decide between statehood and independence
03:21:12 <ais523> which is unfair in another way, of course
03:21:28 <ais523> approval vote would be a good solution for that sort of referendum, IMO
03:21:39 <ais523> STV would work too but seems like overkill
03:22:15 <coppro> AV is lim_{n\to 1} STV
03:22:23 <coppro> where n is the number of outcomes selected
03:22:53 <ais523> but even AV is overkill for something like that
03:23:32 <coppro> approval would be good
03:30:49 <zzo38> What kind of dream did you have?
03:32:58 <ais523> in the dream I had last night, Totem was a package manager…
03:33:09 <ais523> I berated it for its technological inaccuracy when I woke up
03:36:45 <elliott> ais523: btw, you're missing brilliant games of monqys-crawl
03:36:51 <elliott> (not the same as monqy's crawl)
03:44:25 <zzo38> I have type Expander = StateT [Declaration] []; but now I think that might be wrong because, it may read only some declarations while expanding macros, and then the macros are capable to add new declarations, but we need to keep track of which declaration added on, which the compiler then may need to call the expander again to expand macros in new blocks, etc
03:47:23 <zzo38> I am somewhat confuse how to do
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05:06:33 <coppro> elliott: I just won agora
05:06:41 <elliott> i'm trying to win monqys-crawl
05:06:48 <elliott> ais523: you should telnet termcast.org, choose elliottmq
05:06:52 <elliott> view a brief glimpse of monqys-crawl endgame
05:07:03 <shachaf> Who wants a MATHEMATICS PUZZLE?!?
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07:15:14 <ais523> elliott: oh dear, I just noticed the domain name at the top of proggit right now
07:15:23 <ais523> is it THE ALAN DIPERT, I wonder?
07:15:25 <elliott> i commented on that earlier
07:19:45 <ais523> also, I think I've seen that page before
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08:23:05 <cheater_> @tell kmc i just can't choose: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/search/?q=html&cat=personas&appver=&platform= ----------- https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/search/?q=php&cat=personas
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08:36:46 <Sgeo> Did you see the update?
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09:43:09 <itidus20> so a thought just occured to me.. for a program which takes code with gotos, and reorganizes it into code without gotos
09:43:51 <Phantom_Hoover> If you mean loop-based, it's extremely difficult, if not impossible.
09:44:24 <Lumpio-> You can always write the equivalent program without gotos
09:44:30 <itidus20> loops, conditionals, loop breaks, continues, anything but the gotos
09:44:32 <Lumpio-> However automating that transform might be a bit hard
09:44:40 <kmc> itidus20: why
09:44:40 <lambdabot> kmc: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:44:53 <lambdabot> cheater_ said 1h 21m 46s ago: i just can't choose: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/search/?q=html&cat=personas&appver=&platform= ----------- https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/search/?
09:44:56 <Lumpio-> I doubt anybody uses gotos without a good reason anymore
09:45:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Lumpio-, obviously you can assuming the two things you're translating between are both TC.
09:45:59 <kmc> when nelhage published http://livegrep.com some redditor was aghast to note that there are "over 50" gotos in the Linux kernel
09:46:08 <kmc> there are like... many thousands
09:46:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Just write an interpreter for the goto language in the structured one, then get it to interpret the goto code.
09:46:39 <elliott> Lumpio-: Automating that transform might be a bit hard?
09:46:44 <elliott> That's, uh, what a compiler does.
09:46:50 <elliott> There's no structured control at the machine levle.
09:46:58 <kmc> elliott: i think you have it backwards
09:47:03 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, he means no structured control -> structured control
09:47:18 <itidus20> well i really meant some structued control -> all structured :D
09:47:23 <elliott> Well, that's still trivial, all you need is a switch and a while loop.
09:47:38 <elliott> kmc will now complain at me for saying "trivial".
09:47:49 <kmc> elliott: it might be an acceptable use
09:47:56 <Phantom_Hoover> hey elliott remember when you did all ellipses like that
09:48:03 <kmc> after all the reason i complain about "awesome" and "trivial" is not that I think these words should never be used
09:48:06 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: it looks like grey block for me
09:48:09 <cheater_> actually, he'd complain more if someone said "solved problem"
09:48:21 <itidus20> one good application for this would be so that people have no excuses to have code with gotos
09:48:33 <kmc> itidus20: some code is much nicer when written with goto
09:48:45 <kmc> especially when you have only C control flow
09:48:47 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, you realise the goto battle was won long ago, right?
09:48:47 <elliott> A switch without fallovers or whatever.
09:49:05 <kmc> ┌──────────┐
09:49:06 <kmc> │ ■■■■■■■■ │
09:49:06 <kmc> └──────────┘
09:49:10 <cheater_> i will start making full stops like this ■
09:49:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Nobody uses goto as their primary control structure any more.
09:49:23 <elliott> ÷πª•∞¢´∑ß≈ç√∫~∆˚øª•¶§∞åÎØÍÚÏÎ`˜ÂÁ¢
09:49:44 <cheater_> because a full stop really needs to be a fully black character■
09:49:53 <nortti> elliott: I can type § without using any modifier keys kinda like ½
09:50:01 <itidus20> well it would be ridiculous to stop using goto altogether.
09:50:13 <itidus20> i have therefore said nothing :D
09:50:33 <kmc> no zalgo 4 u
09:51:06 <kmc> hm my boxifying script probably does not handle combining characters
09:51:32 <cheater_> why do you have a boxifying script■
09:51:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: MAN': not found
09:51:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ´: not found
09:51:50 <kmc> so i can put stuff in boxes
09:53:14 <kmc> but it does handle
09:53:17 <kmc> ┌────────────────────────────────┐
09:53:20 <kmc> │ ＦＵＬＬＷＩＤＴＨ ＬＡＴＩＮ │
09:53:23 <kmc> └────────────────────────────────┘
09:53:48 <Lumpio-> But... does it handle fullwidth CJK?
09:53:58 <cheater_> fwiw, it doesn't work in xchat anyways because variable width font■
09:54:04 <kmc> i get the character properties from ICU
09:54:12 <kmc> cheater_: :(
09:54:19 <Lumpio-> Variable width fonts for IRC are just wrong
09:54:44 <cheater_> Lumpio-: that's only until you start using them and your eyes don't hurt anymore■
09:54:49 <Lumpio-> Japanese people make "ASCII art" using variable width fonts
09:55:01 <cheater_> Lumpio-: yeah but the right wall won't line up at all■
09:55:09 <Lumpio-> (Of course they assume everybody's running exactly the same version of Windows with the same font and rendering method)
09:55:27 <Lumpio-> (But then again over there everybody is still stuck with w2k or something)
09:55:39 <cheater_> this isn't exactly exactly ascii art■
09:55:40 <Lumpio-> (And using operating systems besides Windows would dishonor your entire family)
09:55:45 <cheater_> it's more line drawing than anything■
09:55:46 <Lumpio-> Yes, it's not ASCII art. They still call it that.
09:56:15 <cheater_> kmc's boxes are merely kitsch■
09:56:18 <Lumpio-> I was talking about lining up stuff with variable width fonts
09:56:24 <Lumpio-> Also these days anything can be art
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09:56:47 <Lumpio-> As long as somebody thinks it's art, it's art.
09:56:48 <cheater_> what about the art of computer programming■
09:57:04 <Lumpio-> If other people have problems accepting that all they need to do is call it experimental or progressive art
09:57:07 <cheater_> go program some php, make art■
09:57:29 <cheater_> what if it's not progressive or experimental at all■
09:57:50 <cheater_> let's say someone paints a really beautiful landscape, rembrandt style■
09:57:53 <Lumpio-> It is if somebody says so.
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09:58:11 <cheater_> but it's neither progressive nor experimental■
09:58:19 <cheater_> it's just the new FULLER stop■
09:58:42 <Lumpio-> Then I shall use the CJK full stop。
09:58:53 <cheater_> i just got bored with my fuller stop
09:59:02 <cheater_> i won't be using it for the time being
09:59:31 <pikhq> Yay、 CJK fullーwidth full stop！
10:02:44 <cheater_> what's the one you just pasted
10:02:56 <kmc> cheater_: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f4a9/index.htm
10:03:22 <cheater_> that's probably a very good unicode coverage testing character
10:03:25 <kmc> the only (?) unicode character with smell lines
10:03:33 <kmc> actually they should have combining smell lines
10:03:55 <cheater_> i am surprised they ignore this fact so blatantly
10:05:20 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Zh%C3%A9.svg
10:05:39 <kmc> i'm using Mosh so i can't copy-paste characters wich aren't recognized by my locale :/
10:06:11 <kmc> they turn into U+FFFD 'REPLACEMENT CHARACTER'
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10:08:36 <kmc> maybe han characters were invented by dragons
10:09:32 <kmc> i was thinking the other day about how chopsticks kinda suck compared to forks, but asian soup spoons are way better than western ones
10:09:47 <kmc> i want to make this into an entire bullshit pop-psych theory about east vs west
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10:11:57 <kmc> chopsticks are versatile though
10:14:11 <itidus20> i saw somewhere that some japanese guy adding thumb shaped stubs to forks to make them look more like hands
10:15:01 <cheater__> hey kmc what was that haskell shell lib that allowed you to use combinators to pipe stuff around?
10:15:07 <kmc> don't remember
10:16:51 <kmc> not in any special way
10:17:06 <kmc> you can use the normal shell pipe within the quotation
10:17:12 <kmc> [sh| foo | bar |]
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10:34:35 <cheater__> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3966632
10:34:50 <cheater__> i bet that'll at least double my karma
10:35:05 <cheater__> basically, any mention of hskell = karma
10:35:16 <kmc> i thought reddit and hackernews were over haskell
10:35:44 <kmc> i know /r/programming had a haskell phase but last i checked they had more of a haskell backlash
10:35:54 <kmc> however these days I avoid that place like the pits of hell
10:35:55 <cheater__> yea i heard they had a haskell aversion
10:35:59 <kmc> hn is pretty annoying too
10:36:09 <kmc> eh paul graham is not a big haskell fan
10:36:25 <kmc> it's written in Arc actually
10:36:32 <kmc> which is PG's crackhead Lisp dialect
10:37:01 <kmc> also Lisp ≠ functional, if you read _On Lisp_ you'll see that PG doesn't particularly use a functional style
10:37:17 <kmc> a lot of Lispers will get really annoyed if you call Lisp a functional language
10:37:45 <cheater__> i was joking and you think i'm serious
10:38:04 <cheater__> i thought it was an obvious joke, i mean "lisp is functional" come on
10:38:21 <cheater__> ok now upvote that comment and the post it links to kmc
10:38:34 <kmc> anyway HN may be written in Arc but it's full of startup weenies who think ruby and node.js coffeescript are beautiful awesome ninja hacker software
10:38:45 <kmc> at this point i'm really embarassed to be associated with "hacker" culture
10:38:49 <kmc> i guess that makes me a bitter elitist
10:38:58 <kmc> cheater__: i don't have a HN account
10:40:04 <cheater__> also, if you take the remaining 2% then 98% of that is shit
10:40:16 <kmc> fractal shit
10:40:19 <kmc> it's shit all the way down
10:40:34 <cheater__> so i'm thinking, it applies to hackers too
10:40:38 <kmc> On Lisp is a cool book though
10:40:55 <cheater__> you can't just hide in your shell and wait for the (shit)storm to pass
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10:41:28 <cheater__> you can ignore it's there, and avoid everything where you think there's that 98% of shit
10:41:48 <cheater__> if you don't see the 98% in something then you just aren't good enough at that thing to appreciate good quality
10:42:08 <cheater__> example: you still haven't gotten put off on electronics
10:42:13 <cheater__> if you keep at it, you surely will
10:42:38 <cheater__> so i'm thinking, it's much better to display enough creativity to actually make something out of all that, you know, shit
10:42:45 <cheater__> since it's 98% of the natural resource.
10:42:52 <cheater__> i guess that's the smart way to go, make something out of nothing.
10:43:04 <kmc> wow CNN has articles about brogrammers now
10:43:14 -!- elliott has left.
10:43:23 <kmc> http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/07/tech/web/brogrammers/index.html
10:43:26 <kmc> cheater__: i'm not put off making stuff
10:43:31 <kmc> just put off "hacker culture"
10:43:42 <kmc> so instead of spending my time reading HN, i make stuff
10:44:01 <cheater__> you've just learnt that it's crap, that's all
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10:44:18 <cheater__> but it's not really an earth shattering realization once you realize that 98% of everything is crap
10:44:45 <kmc> i'm almost pleased about the fact that Mosh uses such un-sexy tools
10:44:53 <kmc> C++ and Automake and fucking unix terminal subsystem
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10:45:09 <kmc> though it really should be in a memory-safe langauge
10:46:48 <cheater__> why didn't you make it in python and twisted and coffeescript
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10:48:08 <kmc> yeah i know right
10:48:40 <kmc> also it uses a network protocol that isn't HTTP based
10:48:49 <cheater__> actually, i'm wondering about python's increasing notoriety as a "systems language"
10:48:54 <kmc> that pretty much marks us as dinosaurs right
10:49:07 <cheater__> it really does feel like it's replacing the C/C++/Cobol/Perl hydra
10:49:13 <kmc> in 40 years all protocols below HTTP will be forgotton
10:49:24 <Sgeo> I assume kmc is joking
10:49:35 <cheater__> "what do you mean the port is not 80"
10:49:41 <kmc> and we'll be reimplementing TCP and UDP poorly over HTTP
10:49:45 <cheater__> "how can you have a port that's not 80"
10:49:57 <cheater__> that's the fucking amazing part about hackers nowadays
10:50:11 <cheater__> reimplement shit on top of exactly the same shit fifty layers down
10:50:51 <kmc> my friend was at a café and someone saw code on his screen and asked him what he does for a living
10:51:02 <kmc> "i'm a kernel programmer, it's the very core of the operating system"
10:51:11 <kmc> "oh, so, like not even the Drupal layer? even lower than that?"
10:51:52 <kmc> this is really a sign of progress though
10:51:59 <kmc> even if it's unpalatable to eleet ninja hackers
10:52:35 <kmc> our abstractions are good enough that people can build worthwhile things without knowing every single irrelevant detail of the hardware and operating system
10:53:16 <kmc> there is some fallacy that we could make all current programmers learn assembly language and CPU architecture
10:53:26 <kmc> when really a lot of people would just give up on programming then
10:53:42 <cheater__> Drupal Layer is the new ISO OSI Layer 0
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10:58:20 <cheater__> http://scpd.stanford.edu/knuth/index.jsp
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11:02:53 <kmc> cheater__: http://a841-tfpweb.nyc.gov/bikeshare/files/2012/05/Schaefer-Landing.jpg
11:02:56 <kmc> don't you love this map
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11:08:00 <cheater__> i think they might be using the wrong metric
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11:08:51 <kmc> it's supposed to be how far you can bike from a given point in n minutes
11:08:55 <kmc> but that point is on the waterline...
11:09:24 -!- MoALTz has joined.
11:09:37 <kmc> also you have to bike east to the edge of their "5 min" circle just to get on the bridge to go west
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11:13:51 <cheater__> it's obviously a crude representation
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11:14:07 <cheater__> why do you expect it to be autism-compatible
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11:15:36 <kmc> cheater__: the circle maps are always crude approximations but this one is beyond ridiculous
11:16:02 <cheater__> what if the center of the circle were just a little bit further
11:16:05 <kmc> it understates the time to bike to many points by at least a factor of 2
11:16:24 <cheater__> it's only one order of magnitude in binary
11:16:28 <kmc> lol cheater__
11:16:41 <kmc> so anyone who cares about correctness within an order of magnitude is mentally ill
11:16:54 <cheater__> it's not like you'll expect to go for a 10 minute ride and end up commuting for a whole day
11:17:31 <kmc> if they just had the east half of each circle that would be ok
11:18:25 <kmc> but e.g. they imply you can get from Schaefer Landing to DUMBO in 10 minutes
11:18:43 <kmc> by biking across the water and the navy yard
11:18:51 <cheater__> i am dismayed at the fact that no european universities do an OCW kind of thing
11:19:01 <kmc> the intersection of that circle with the route you'd actually take is less than halfway
11:19:46 <kmc> to annoy you cheater__
11:19:52 <cheater__> have you been watching some sort of commuter-version of requiem for a dream
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11:20:43 <cheater__> better tell me if you know of any european unis that have online courses available
11:22:32 <kmc> i don't know of any
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11:23:43 <kmc> your language says a lot cheater__
11:23:54 <kmc> you assume i bring up this map because i am "obsessing"
11:24:02 <kmc> when it is just a momentary diversion
11:24:05 <kmc> that says more about u than about me
11:26:23 <Sgeo> FOS: cheater__ ?
11:26:38 <Sgeo> Sorry, I'm a bit Mafia obsessed lately
11:26:46 <Sgeo> Finger of Suspicion
11:26:58 <Taneb> I'm awful at mafia
11:27:20 <Sgeo> Taneb, you're officially better than the people in #wolfgame
11:27:29 <Taneb> cheater__, he thinks you are one of the people who kill a townsperson at night-time
11:28:07 <Sgeo> I, as a townie, was once lynched at lylo for checking stats at daybreak
11:31:18 <Sgeo> Taneb, pop-quiz: Should the town, during the day, if there's nothing in particular to talk about:
11:31:31 <Sgeo> a) Talk, in an attempt to root out mafia, or
11:31:50 <Sgeo> And you're smarter than #wolfgame, good job
11:32:05 <Taneb> Of course, I suck at talking, and when I do talk, everyone thinks I'm mafioso
11:34:40 <cheater__> the german universities really suck at online courses
11:34:51 <cheater__> there's the british Open University that does it
11:35:04 <cheater__> then the next nearest thing to europe is in australia, or something.
11:36:03 <Taneb> Japan's closer to Europe than Australia?
11:36:11 <Taneb> Unless you mean culturally?
11:36:20 <Taneb> Or linguistically, I guess
11:36:43 <cheater__> no i mean as in "the closest thing to europe other than europe or usa"
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11:36:57 <cheater__> just trying to display how far behind europe is in that regard
11:37:26 <Taneb> Oh, close as in close in the rankings
11:39:06 <cheater__> hey have you seen this https://gist.github.com/701213
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11:45:26 <Taneb> How does GPL apply to a file format?
11:48:39 <cheater__> a format is not data, it is metadata
11:48:48 <cheater__> you can only copyright data, not metadata
11:49:16 <cheater__> but it also means that you can change the format and you're still under the same copyright
11:49:29 <cheater__> that's why mp3 files are copyrighted because people have copyright over the source cds
11:50:41 <Taneb> So, I'm free to write a program that saves to a format, the specifications of which are in the form of an XML DTD which explicitly mentions that it is licensed under GPL, and release my program under any license I like?
11:52:18 <Taneb> Actually, nevermind
11:58:47 <kmc> cheater__: interesting
11:58:54 <kmc> in my short time in #python i noticed these problems too
11:59:11 <cheater__> getting banned from #python = badge of honor
12:00:41 <cheater__> hey kmc, EvilTerran on Hackernews says "ShQQ looks very nice"
12:01:06 <cheater__> i'll livestream all comments to your ephemeral consciousness
12:01:35 <cheater__> git pushing into your noggin with --force
12:02:30 <kmc> reallyUnsafe
12:03:11 <ion> Use the --force-luke.
12:03:27 <cheater__> git push --force ssh://localhost/dev/brain
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12:04:47 <cheater__> i guess it's better to use ``git push --force file:///dev/brain''
12:08:29 <kmc> or just /dev/brain
12:08:34 <kmc> i often use "git push ."
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12:15:26 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Gato_enervado_pola_presencia_dun_can.jpg
12:24:12 <kmc> to update a ref in the local repository
12:27:10 <cheater__> excuse me sir but what does that do
12:29:41 <kmc> sometimes i want to change which commit a particular branch points to
12:29:48 <kmc> without checking out that branch
12:29:57 <kmc> git push . is a fine way to do it
12:30:11 <kmc> there are other ways
12:30:11 <olsner> I'd use git branch -f for that
12:31:22 <kmc> that probably handles the case where the ref doesn't exist better
12:34:05 <cheater__> wow the chinese OCW doesn't even have a fuckin domain
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12:45:40 <kmc> hi cheater__
12:47:03 <cheater__> i am just currently being mindblown by the fact that the first digit of my weight in kilograms in decimal at sea level earth gravitation is about to drop by 1
12:49:47 <nortti> cheater__: do you mean your mass in kilograms or you weight in newtons?
12:50:18 <kmc> nortti: in before cheater__ accuses you of having an autism spectrum disorder
12:51:45 <cheater__> nortti: good catch, i keep forgetting that weight is a force
12:51:58 <cheater__> kmc: dude stop it with your autism
12:53:00 <cheater__> so i'm browsing this blog with online video lectures and i notice a lecture by Spolsky
12:53:04 <nortti> kmc: why would he think I have autims spectrum disorder
12:53:08 <cheater__> who the fuck let that guy teach at a university
12:53:19 <cheater__> i look again and it's like.. Saplosky
12:53:20 <kmc> some other spolsky i hope
12:53:23 <kmc> ok good lol
12:53:29 <olsner> nortti: only autists know about the difference between mass and weight
12:53:38 <kmc> or any other matter of correctness
12:54:01 <kmc> autofellatio
12:55:14 <kmc> cheater__: i streamlined my blogpost writing workflow by using inotifywait to run pandoc when i save the markdown file
12:55:19 <kmc> this is a lifehack for sure
12:57:33 <kmc> can output many formats, but i'm doing markdown → html
12:57:46 <cheater__> kmc: i'm thinking i should set up a build system for my blog, so that i can jump ship from posterous any time
12:58:03 <cheater__> if i can set up a blog and have all the posts up in just one command, that's gotta be worth something
12:58:16 <kmc> mine isn't quite that slick
12:58:33 <kmc> it might be cool to use jekyll or hakyll or something
12:58:52 <cheater__> i just mean, something that uploads to posterous in one go
12:58:59 <cheater__> and when the time comes, have it upload to some other thing
13:01:35 <kmc> with those progs i mentioned, you get just a static file tree
13:01:37 <kmc> so you can use any web host
13:05:42 <ion> Please give me Coke. http://youtu.be/VuAXoSnp14M?t=13m36s
13:06:29 <cheater__> kmc: i don't want to use a web host because web hosts are not free
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13:08:26 <cheater__> ion: hilarious A+++++++ would watch again
13:13:56 <nortti> yay. LAME says that encoding will take aproximately 23 hours and 10 minutes -.-'
13:14:10 <ion> The encoding of what?
13:14:53 <nortti> ion: sound file from wav to mp3
13:15:03 <ion> The encoding of what sound file?
13:16:06 <nortti> ion: audio of brain scratch comms Q&A video ripped to 2.3GB wav file
13:16:36 <nortti> oh. now it is only 23 hours
13:17:41 <cheater__> and, you're probably better off transcoding speech to flac
13:17:49 <cheater__> because mp3 really mutilates it and makes it SUPER annoying
13:19:34 <nortti> cheater__: video is 3 hours and 55 minutes long. I ripped the audio with ffmpeg using ffmpeg -i bscqa.mp3 bscqa.wav
13:23:11 <nortti> wow. I got response from European Parliament to my question about law making possession of hacking tools illegal
13:23:23 <ion> such as gcc?
13:23:38 <cheater__> ion: another reason to use clang amirite
13:23:45 <nortti> cheater__: they can't say what is hacking tool
13:24:14 <nortti> cheater__: remember I am using computer with 700MHz Pentium III
13:24:40 <ion> Still sounds too long.
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13:25:22 <cheater__> nortti: oh, so you don't have sse. you've really fucked yourself over there
13:25:32 <cheater__> why are you using such an antique piece of technology?
13:25:32 <nortti> ion: now it says 22h 30min
13:25:43 <nortti> cheater__: by iBook G4 broke
13:25:53 <ion> My 66 MHz Amiga can’t encode MP3 in realtime, but most things faster than that should be able to do that. :-P
13:27:17 <nortti> cheater__: it isn't even 10 years old
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13:27:30 <olsner> nortti: if the source is mp3, why are you encoding anything at all?
13:28:10 <cheater__> i see a very big sexist bias in this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_people#Ten_verified_oldest_people_living
13:28:29 <olsner> nortti: "I ripped the audio with ffmpeg using ffmpeg -i bscqa.mp3 bscqa.wav"?
13:28:42 <nortti> olsner: I mean bcsqa.mp4
13:29:57 <nortti> olsner: I used youtube-dl to download bscqa.mp4, ffmpeg to rip it's audio and lame to convert audio to something that is not completely ridicilous in size
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13:30:21 <cheater__> what's the original url of that thing
13:30:29 <olsner> what codec is the original audio track? that's probably something fairly standard
13:31:03 <ion> bscqa.mp4 almost certainly contains compressed audio, why not just extract it and use it as-is?
13:31:23 <nortti> ion: I don't know ho to do that
13:31:58 <olsner> you can do something like mplayer -dumpaudio
13:32:23 <cheater__> yeah recompressing is usually a bad idea anyways
13:32:31 <cheater__> nortti: so why are you exporting the audio again?
13:33:52 <nortti> cheater__: I download bscqa.mp4, rip audio from it to bscqa.wav and encode bscqa.wav to mp3. I don't see where I am exporting the audio again
13:34:33 <cheater__> tell me why you are exporting the audio
13:34:38 <ion> http://www.mediafire.com/?d94ngt9iuqmd4sd
13:37:37 <nortti> (mediafire requires javascript so I don't know what is behind that link)
13:38:57 <ion> “BrainScratchComms Q&A Responses!.mp3”
13:39:09 <nortti> cheater__: I am exporting audio because their .mp3 file is hosted on megaupload
13:39:24 <nortti> ion: well I can't download it
13:39:58 <ion> Your Pentium III can’t run a browser that supports JavaScript?
13:40:32 <nortti> ion: it can but hv3 crashes when trying to parse the mess on that page
13:40:52 <ion> Then try another one.
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13:41:36 <nortti> ion: hv3 is the only one running at speed that is acceptable
13:42:02 <nortti> ion: well it and links2 with -enable-javascript but that is a joke
13:43:54 <cheater__> kmc: http://www.jerkcity.com/_jerkcity4536.html
13:44:10 <nortti> cheater__: how do I download file from mediafire using dropbox?
13:44:39 <cheater__> can you download from dropbox using dropbox?
13:45:15 <nortti> cheater__: yes. I had to install Xvesa for it to work though
13:46:20 <nortti> cheater__: oh you meant from dl.dropbox.com? yes I can even with links
13:47:13 <cheater__> ion try uploading to dropbox if u want to
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13:58:08 <Gregor> "Sensors detect no signs of life." *beam down* *surrounded by trees*
14:05:25 <ion> cheater: I don’t have the file.
14:05:56 <cheater__> ion: oh i thought you uploaded it for him
14:06:02 <cheater__> anyways i gotta go to the gym, ttyl
14:06:07 <ion> Nah, it was just linked from the video comments.
14:10:14 <nortti> interesting. LAME stopped at 20 hours and 6 minutes
14:18:36 <cheater__> so apparently, my gmail has 455 filters
14:18:50 <cheater__> around 450 of those filters are to folderize recruiter spam
14:19:11 <cheater__> thank DOG for the ability to export and import filters in gfail
14:22:08 <kmc> micro$haft winbloze
14:25:23 <kmc> i agree with olsner that you should dump the encoded audio out of the mp4 file
14:25:28 <kmc> unless you need mp3 specifically
14:26:44 <nortti> kmc: yeah. I remeber that next time when I have to do that
14:28:44 <nortti> kmc: lame finished encoding when it said it still had over 20 hours left
14:29:24 <cheater__> the cent sign is representative of the described object's perceived value
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14:30:09 <cheater__> nortti: i thought you meant it just stopped predicting at 20 hours, and continued to predict it'll take another 20 hours.
14:31:15 <cheater__> hahaha someone should really make a zalgo function for LaTeX
14:31:16 <ion> Has someone actually implemented \zalgo{}?
14:31:31 <cheater__> it would be the ultimate thing ever
14:31:50 <kmc> relevant: http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/29402/how-do-i-make-my-document-look-like-it-was-written-by-a-cthulhu-worshipping-madm
14:32:47 <kmc> "Googling "crazy latex" did not return what I expected."
14:33:09 <itidus20> "scrawled by a gibbering madman, unhinged by the horrors he has witnessed"
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14:42:42 <kmc> what are the horrors i have witnessed
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14:50:36 <kmc> i've never been to #php
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17:04:08 <cheater__> kmc: lies, one time i told you to go there because funny shit was going down
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17:11:20 <kmc> what funny shit went down
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17:25:11 <cheater__> guy in ##electronics joins in, asks if we know how to scan rfid in credit cards and personal id's
17:25:26 <cheater__> asked why he needs this, he says there's some guy stealing from him periodically
17:25:50 <cheater__> basically, he leaves behind expensive stuff (in the city at that, not suburbia) standing around in front of the garage or in the car
17:26:13 <cheater__> but he can't get an ID because it's usually dark at night
17:26:30 <cheater__> so he figures, he saw some guys at defcon scan credit cards at a distance
17:26:41 <cheater__> and he figures the thief must have a credit card on him
17:26:46 <cheater__> so now he's trying to figure out how to do it
17:27:03 <cheater__> low tech solution: don't leave your shit for people to steal
17:27:46 <cheater__> kmc: tip for nuggets, a drop of green tabasco and a dash of lime juice is all they need to taste better
17:32:31 <kmc> tabasco is great
17:33:07 <kmc> i use it all the damn time
17:33:13 <cheater__> but it's good used every now and then in moderation
17:33:36 <kmc> i like spicy food and i like vinegar taste
17:35:12 <ion> It’s a bit too vinegary for my taste.
17:35:16 <kmc> i think so, but i don't have it often enough to say for sure
17:35:18 <ion> Tabasco, that is.
17:35:31 <kmc> vinegar, tabasco, and sriracha are some of my favorite seasonings
17:35:37 <cheater__> kmc: how do you pronounce it, wor-chest-er or wooster?
17:36:04 <ion> I’d like to taste sriracha, but i haven’t found any yet.
17:36:07 <kmc> the one i know is named Worcestershire sauce
17:36:14 <kmc> and pronounce wus-ter-sher
17:36:21 <kmc> fucking brits am i rite
17:36:26 <cheater__> i keep on arguing with people here
17:36:38 <cheater__> and they look at me like i'm fucking stupid
17:38:21 <kmc> well it's a stupid pronunciation even if it's "correct"
17:43:31 <kmc> basically i think people should know what's "correct" but should feel free to ignore it for sanity or consistency
17:43:42 <cheater__> i guess you can't appreciate real historical value living in a country halfway predated by the house i live in
17:47:02 <cheater__> i mean the american history is so recent i'm surprised it hasn't been televised from the very beginning
17:47:56 <kmc> but the flip side is that our history is way more important and everything else is irrelevant
17:48:07 <kmc> in fact glorious leader george w. bush has brought about the end of history
17:48:59 <kmc> it will be livetumblr'd
17:49:11 <cheater__> my house actually IS about 50% the age of your country
17:50:33 <kmc> it's a little older than that depending on how you count
17:51:05 <kmc> but yeah like 238 years max
17:51:21 <cheater__> we count starting the time other people stopped calling your ramshacks a colony
17:52:45 <shachaf> kmc: Remember back when Wireshark was called Ethereal?
17:52:55 <shachaf> I wanted to install it in Ubuntu but I was having problems.
17:53:10 <shachaf> So I searched for «ethereal universe».
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17:54:41 <cheater__> hey kmc you know what's really hot
17:54:51 <kmc> that sounds p. good
17:55:45 <cheater__> have you ever tried any of that stuff
17:56:10 <cheater__> you don't feel the heat until you're done chewing and it goes down your throat
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18:15:54 <cheater__> kmc do you like asian food http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/chineseposters/images/1200/DSC_4023.jpg
18:17:12 <kmc> i'm having trouble decoding this one
18:17:32 <kmc> i think the first one says that if I don't wash my hands after taking a shit, I will get sick
18:18:06 <kmc> also ways of killing flies
18:26:38 <cheater__> here's some chinese porn for you http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/chineseposters/images/1200/DSC_4053.jpg
18:28:26 <kmc> i don't know chinese
18:28:30 <kmc> that sucks
18:29:23 <kmc> it sucks to have diarrhea and vomitosis at the same time
18:29:26 <cheater__> ok guess what this one is http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/chineseposters/images/1200/DSC_4082.jpg
18:30:44 <kmc> ah the grumpy little fellows are
18:30:45 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SARS_coronavirus
18:30:47 <cheater__> you almost guessed quicker than i told you
18:31:03 <AnotherTest> Does anyone happen to know of any good papers about techniques for prevention of distributed denial of service attacks?
18:31:35 <cheater__> because mostly it's a big business that people don't share their techniques in
18:31:56 <cheater__> kmc: lol @ "grumpy little fellows"
18:33:50 <kmc> cheater__: have you read http://www.vice.com/read/life-is-a-cosmic-giggle-803-v18n5
18:34:00 <cheater__> kmc: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/chineseposters/images/1200/DSC_4057.jpg
18:34:18 <cheater__> more http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/chineseposters/index.html
18:34:38 <cheater__> kmc is that the one about the junkie girl
18:35:24 <cheater__> have a look at that jpg i just posted, but not before you drop some acid and put on your stoner goggles
18:36:55 <cheater__> As your attorney, I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top. And you'll need the cocaine. Tape recorder for special music. Acapulco shirts.
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18:47:58 <cheater__> kmc: r u unhappy b/cuz i stereotyped u
18:48:06 <kmc> i'm not unhappy
18:49:07 <kmc> cool shachaf
18:49:31 <shachaf> It was mostly when you posted it in the other channel a few minutes ago.
18:50:02 <cheater__> i think you posted it like last year
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18:56:28 <cheater__> man, the renamer script for vim is a lifesaver
18:56:57 <shachaf> == kmc in the other channel.
18:57:06 <shachaf> I typically try not to get involved in this argument.
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18:59:27 <oerjan> YOU HAVE NO PROOF OF THAT
19:00:03 <shachaf> zzo38: I peeked at the end of the book and I'm still alive.
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19:11:22 <zzo38> shachaf: No, you looked at the wrong page. The correct book is the one with poison on the end, therefore it will kill you too
19:17:08 <cheater__> http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57411977-1/the-black-hole-los-alamos-lab-surplus-store-surprises/
19:18:40 <cheater__> experienced this so often: http://www.jerkcity.com/_jerkcity4528.html
19:26:28 <cheater__> http://www.jerkcity.com/_jerkcity4513.html
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20:14:18 <nortti> Although left-handed people make up only 10 percent of the population as a whole, they compose a full 20 percent of schizophrenics. Is it because all those right-handed can openers slowly drive them mad? Possibly. "
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20:23:56 <nortti> "That's right: Ovoviviparous sharks eat each other in the womb. Particularly nurse sharks, which just proves that science loves irony."
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20:58:29 <quintopia> hard computing problem: is it possible to have a computable program that 1) computes any non-halting program given as input and 2) assuming that the program's internal state at time t is P(t), eventually computes P(t) by simulation of itself for all t?
21:00:11 <quintopia> Let's say that it must eventually output a complete summary of all the actions it did at any given step in its self-simulation, while also producing whatever output the input program would produce.
21:00:28 <quintopia> it would be like using gdb to debug gdb
21:00:58 <quintopia> where the underlying gdb was always being used for the same purpose
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21:20:55 <cheater__> very lulzy trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&v=ZJkd5X2aG34&NR=1
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21:33:09 <quintopia> 16:58 < quintopia> hard computing problem: is it possible to have a computable program that 1) computes any non-halting program given as input and 2) assuming that the program's internal state at time t is P(t), eventually computes P(t) by simulation of itself for all t?
21:33:14 <quintopia> 17:00 < quintopia> Let's say that it must eventually output a complete summary of all the actions it did at any given step in its self-simulation, while also producing whatever output the input program would produce.
21:33:19 <quintopia> 17:00 < quintopia> it would be like using gdb to debug gdb
21:33:23 <quintopia> 17:00 < quintopia> where the underlying gdb was always being used for the same purpose
21:34:08 <ais523> err, hmm, don't want to think about that right now :)
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22:12:52 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/sX0i5.gif
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23:02:49 <itidus20> possibly burn scars for life.. but funny
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23:16:25 <itidus20> The helmet... it does nothing!
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23:35:42 <itidus20> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=r84d-msuyp0#t=32s
23:36:48 <ion> Someone should record that youtube video from their screen using a phone camera and upload that to youtube.
23:37:45 <itidus20> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r84d-msuyp0&t=32s
23:38:10 <ion> It’s the same one.
23:38:22 <itidus20> yes but i don't like the first url...
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00:38:36 <zzo38> Some people say that sports prediction from horoscope works better than personal prediction from horoscope. What is your opinion on these matters?
00:39:48 <zzo38> ion: True, but too simple.
00:40:14 <zzo38> I am skeptical but can think of two possible reasons which can allow it to work sometimes.
00:40:27 <zzo38> (I am not counting such things as fluke)
00:42:07 <ion> Some people say that sports prediction from the variation of latency in pinging google.com works better than personal prediction from that.
00:43:49 <zzo38> The two reasons I am think of: (1) psychological effect (such as superstitious people's belief in such things), and (2) lighting conditions (considering house positions on horoscopes).
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00:45:29 <zzo38> Now what will you answer to this? (Simply saying it is good or it is bad, is not the good answer; you must critical thinking too)
00:52:27 <ais523> zzo38: I think the position of the Sun might potentially matter, but the positions of other heavenly bodies are unlikely to be even visible during the game
00:52:56 <zzo38> ais523: True. About lighting conditions, yes it is the Sun which I was refering to.
00:53:37 <ais523> and directly looking at the time and date would be more direct than going via horoscope
00:54:21 <zzo38> ais523: Sunrise/sunset and so on change for different days and different locations, there are also timezones which are not always same as solar time, and then there is daylight saving time, etc
00:54:34 <ais523> I meant true local time
00:54:37 <ais523> not local time from timezone
00:55:08 <ais523> timezones are only approximations intended to standardise time across a country, so that people a long way from each other can communicate about time
00:55:14 <ais523> they came about when railways became popular
00:55:26 <ais523> before then, long-distance communication and travel wasn't fast enough for the time differences to matter
00:55:30 <ais523> but everyone needed to agree on train times
00:56:13 <zzo38> OK, I didn't know that but yes it seem good
00:56:25 <ion> To predict anything about a game based on the position of the Sun, you’ll certainly need the angle of the playfield relative to the Sun as input as well.
00:59:35 <ais523> ion: aren't playfields usually flat?
00:59:42 <ais523> but you'd need to know latitude and longitude and altitude
00:59:50 <ais523> to calculate the angle
01:05:17 <ion> The sun will potentially shine more in the eyes of one team than the other, or perhaps illuminate both equally from the side.
01:05:18 <zzo38> It may help also to know rules of the game.
01:05:31 <zzo38> ion: Yes those are my thoughts too.
01:05:51 <ion> So you can’t make predictions just based on “horoscopes” that don’t take stuff like that into account.
01:06:59 <zzo38> A horoscope chart will include the houses, showing you the ascendant and midheaven and so on. You need to know the location and the date/time to calculate house positions.
01:07:14 <cheater__> lol @ linus https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-5654674
01:07:32 <zzo38> Of course you need to take things into account; a raw horoscope chart will simply tell you the positions and aspects.
01:11:34 <zzo38> So that is lighting conditions; the Mars and other planets are extremely unlikely to affect such things. But, psychological effect of people believing in superstitious things based on these planets may effect decisions of some superstitious players.
01:16:37 <zzo38> Another thing which can potentially affect lighting conditions is a solar eclipse. There are three objects on the horoscope related to eclipses: the Sun, the Moon, and the North Node. I have heard the story of a king who was frightened to death by a solar eclipse. This is unlikely to happen today, but eclipses can still happen.
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01:54:34 <cheater__> give me all your money, this is a stick-up
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02:45:05 <Sgeo> Is Phantom_Hoover alive?
02:53:20 <cheater__> Sgeo: are you able to see the video on this site? http://www.intuit.ru/department/mathematics/imathanalysis/14/
02:57:00 <Sgeo> cheater__, what video
02:57:30 <cheater__> there should be a video there, do you see one?
02:57:38 <Sgeo> Ugh, do I have to unblock flash sitewide for this
02:59:19 <cheater__> this one works right? http://www.intuit.ru/department/mathematics/angeom/1/
03:19:55 <Sgeo> However, it should be noted that I do not speak Russian.
04:11:46 <pikhq_> Not even Russians speak Russian.
04:12:00 <pikhq_> Russian is actually Newspeak.
04:43:24 <cheater__> definitely this week's higlight: i flame a n00b and he comes back and says he's sorry.
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05:09:44 <pikhq> Idea. "All Sliver creatures have Soulbond and 'As long as this creature is paired with another creature, all slivers have the abilities of each of those creatures.' and 'As long as this creature is paired with another creature, each of those creatures is a sliver in addition to its other types.'"
05:09:49 <pikhq> I call it "Assimilating Sliver"
05:10:43 <pikhq> Also, "Creature - Eldrazi Sliver" :)
05:11:22 <pikhq> Well, it'd happen if you played Assimilating Sliver.
05:13:53 <Madoka-Kaname> Anything that results in "All Slivers gain Annihilator anything" is "no"
05:14:03 <ais523> Mistform Ultimus has been screwing up trivia questions for years
05:14:15 <ais523> (as well as the keyword version of its ability that turned up all over the place in Lorwyn)
05:15:38 <pikhq> Madoka-Kaname: What, and Mirrorweave isn't?
05:20:15 <pikhq> Sgeo: Mechanic in Avacyn Restored.
05:31:10 <ais523> pikhq: oh, that's out already?
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05:31:15 <ais523> not really following Magic nowadays
05:31:47 <ais523> heh, today's daily mtg article is about soulbond's history
05:37:55 <pikhq> ais523: Avacyn Restored was actually a rather good set; might be worth caring about.
05:39:01 <pikhq> And I am going to be upset if they screw up Return to Ravnica...
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05:44:17 <ais523> doing Ravnica again? must be running out of ideas :)
05:44:32 <ais523> I did enjoy Ravnica, although Time Spiral is still my favourite block
05:45:22 <pikhq> Either it'll suck or it'll be awesome. I don't see it going in between.
05:45:40 <pikhq> And, yeah, Time Spiral was glorious.
05:53:50 <ais523> apparently it was unpopular sales-wise, though
05:53:55 <ais523> compared to the sets around it
05:54:54 <oklopol> i had a dream that satan worshippers and some sort of vampire enthusiasts were holding a joint meeting, and the vampire dudes were reading stories from their vampire bible (presumably written by charlaine harris)
05:56:51 <zzo38> I like the puzzle games for Magic: the Gathering, and figuring out reactions between existing and possible card texts, and playing in Limited tournaments
05:58:13 <oklopol> for some reason, the vampire dudes had a crusifix from which they drank blood (and occasionally it was wine) and another crusifix that played scary music.
06:00:23 <pikhq> ais523: Well, it did come between Ravnica and Lorwyn.
06:00:37 <ais523> pikhq: Lorwyn's the reason I stopped playing Magic
06:00:43 <pikhq> And, unfortunately, as a nostalgia set it would have somewhat less general appeal.
06:00:53 <ais523> and I had nothing to be nostalgic about, I started with Ninth Edition
06:01:14 <pikhq> Still, Time Spiral was a delightful set, design-wise.
06:01:17 <ais523> I just liked it mechanically
06:03:23 <pikhq> Also, why did *Lorwyn* make you stop playing Magic?
06:03:36 <ais523> didn't like the flavour, didn't like the mechanics, didn't like the focus on creatures
06:03:49 <pikhq> So... Not a big tribal fan?
06:04:04 <ais523> I like Slivers, but I don't like tribal for the sake of tribal
06:04:55 <pikhq> Surprised it wasn't Shards that did it. (seriously, *six fucking years* of multicolor in Standard?)
06:05:06 <ais523> shards just persuaded me not to come back :)
06:09:07 <ais523> I think the focus on creatures recently has turned me off Magic somewhat
06:11:50 <pikhq> Ah, you're one of those people that does things like break Tamiyo. :P http://magiccards.info/avr/en/79.html
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06:12:31 <ais523> oh, I was wrong, it was /planeswalkers/ that turned me off Magic
06:12:35 <ais523> forgot those existed, bleh
06:13:10 <ais523> only reason I wasn't raging during Future Sight was that I assumed that Tarmogoyf's flavour text was a joke
06:13:14 <ais523> (which it could have been, quite easily)
06:14:08 <ais523> huh, Avacyn Restored is a large? I assumed it was a small set
06:14:10 <pikhq> If it makes you feel better, most planeswalkers are little more than a Lightning Bolt sink.
06:14:18 <pikhq> Yeah, it was a weird block-ending large set.
06:15:06 <ais523> and planeswalkers being a lightning bolt sink ties into why I don't like creatures so much
06:15:27 <ais523> I don't mind simple creatures, but I prefer the creatures to sit there on the battlefield and do, at most, combat tricks
06:16:04 <ais523> while the players maneouver around them with their instants and sorceries and enchantments trying to give one side the advantage over the other, either by gaining combat advantage with creatures, or directly
06:16:54 <pikhq> And they've been making creatures do more largely in hopes of making tournament decks actually run creatures.
06:17:13 <pikhq> Kinda-sorta worked.
06:17:32 <pikhq> Though the recent Pro Tour winning deck only ran any creatures in sideboard.
06:17:47 <pikhq> Just a giant pile of miracle spells and cantrips.
06:18:18 <ais523> purpose of creatures is to stop you dying to red
06:18:48 <Sgeo> UPDATE, UPDATE, give me your answer do
06:19:21 <ais523> or even white or green, arguably, but the strategy's most commonly seen in red
06:19:40 <ais523> (that of just putting down lots of cheap creatures early and overrunning the opponent before they can set up whatever they were going to do)
06:19:57 <pikhq> Planeswalkers end up having very different feel to me in formats where Doubling Season is legal.
06:20:22 <pikhq> Tamiyo now reads "3{U}{U}: You get an emblem with "You have no maximum hand size" and "Whenever a card is put into your graveyard from anywhere, you may return it to your hand.""
06:20:36 <Sgeo> pikhq, do you play MtG online, and if so, where and how?
06:20:45 <pikhq> Sgeo: I play MtG IRL.
06:21:34 <ais523> to play it online "officially", you have to pay as much money as it'd cost to get the cards otherwise
06:21:40 <ais523> pikhq: *two emblems :)
06:21:49 <ais523> (I know it doesn't work on emblems, but it /should/)
06:21:56 <Sgeo> ais523, and thus, no desire on my part to play MtGO
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06:22:12 <Sgeo> Do people like Cockatrice?
06:22:18 <ais523> the physical cards are actually worth something for the art design, IMO, apart from the game (although not as much as they cost)
06:22:36 <zzo38> I happen to dislike many of the rules in Magic: the Gathering
06:22:55 <zzo38> I also prefer Limited format games over Constructed
06:25:40 <zzo38> I don't think they need emblems, tribals, state-based effects causing tokens to cease to exist, rule that a land card cannot be played as its other types, etc. There are better ways to write the rules to avoid these things.
06:26:19 <ion> “A lot of people still confuse Austria and Australia, I hope this makes it clear.” https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-OE9rTUfHE8k/T6_yazqUw0I/AAAAAAAAA8I/jvMOuw0z_tA/w497-h373/Jda6h.jpg
06:35:44 <zzo38> We can make up the new game, based on Magic: the Gathering but with differences, including that you do not have to purchase the cards (you can also print them out or write them out, or play by computer; you don't have to pay). As well as making the standard game Limited instead of Constructed.
06:41:26 <Sgeo> Well, there's a reason for the whole purchasing the cards thing: So WotC makes money
06:59:00 <zzo38> Yes, I understand. But, we make up new game it is differ, not using the old cards therefore not using old compatibility rules either. Someone can sell cards if they want to but is not required to play game. Or you can write puzzle-game too. But rules are many differences nevertheless.
07:17:17 <pikhq> zzo38: Of the tournament formats, Limited is quite a lot better IMO.
07:17:42 <pikhq> It's both more fun and a much better test of skill than Constructed.
07:18:09 <pikhq> Not to mention it completely avoids rich-kid syndrome.
07:18:38 <pikhq> Which is by far the worst part of Magic.
07:18:45 <ais523> I actually prefer Constructed, especially when I'm beating the world's best decks with ones that I can afford
07:19:09 <ais523> sometimes with flukes, but it's still amusing
07:19:49 <pikhq> I tend to do vintage casual constructed (okay, so most of my decks are modern too, because I'm cheap. :P)
07:20:25 <pikhq> Really, Magic is at its best in casual play...
07:22:25 <pikhq> Friggin' rarity-directly-mapping-to-usefulness.
07:23:23 <pikhq> It might be good business, but it also warps the game into a contest of money.
07:30:04 <zzo38> pikhq: And that kind of contest about money is one things I dislike about it. And your thing you describe also why Limited is better I agree that Limited is better in that (and other) way.
07:44:47 <ais523> pikhq: rarity mapping to usefulness is partly to accommodate Limited by making drafting first-picks more important
07:45:09 <ais523> but it might be more interesting the other way, where cards only useful in Constructed are placed at rare to avoid them impinging on Limited too much
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07:47:33 <zzo38> ais523: I agree with you on that; I do think that setting the rarity of cards in that way might improve the game (it could be partially tried to see what happen, I suppose).
07:48:25 <ais523> the problem with the rarities at the moment is mythic, really
07:49:07 <ais523> they're trying to make exciting cards powerful, but also tend to put exciting cards at mythic (so that getting them is /more/ exciting, and to make booster packs more valuable because people will have to open more of them to get single cards that they can sell on to people who want them)
07:50:11 <zzo38> Yes these are the many problems with the game, relating to the cards. There are problems with the rules too, but there are also problems with the cards like you are describing.
07:51:45 <pikhq> ais523: Agreed, strongly. Also, I feel like rarity should be more a function of how general a card is. Something like Birds of Paradise should be common, not rare.
07:52:03 <ais523> pikhq: currently specific cards are consistently placed at uncommon
07:52:24 <ais523> which sort-of makes sense for limited, because a specific card can be drafted around
07:52:41 <ais523> especially if it's specific and also one of the set's main mechanics
07:52:49 <pikhq> Yeah... General is common or rare, specific is uncommon, and anything "big" is rare, and anything awesome is mythic rare.
07:53:40 <pikhq> Cavern of Souls should not be rare.
07:53:48 <pikhq> http://magiccards.info/avr/en/226.html BTW
07:53:54 <ais523> what about One with Nothing? people hated that being rare
07:54:01 <ais523> I guess if all rares were like that it wouldn't matter
07:54:23 <pikhq> If it's a card that nearly every deck wants, it shouldn't be friggin' rare.
07:58:12 <ais523> common or uncommon, in your opinion?
07:58:25 <ais523> arguably it's narrow, but it's so customizably narrow it fits into most decks
07:58:46 <ais523> (which is apparently deliberate; apparently, they needed to nerf Mana Leak due to a mistake in balancing Snapcaster Mage)
07:58:49 <pikhq> One with Nothing, depends on what the rest of the set's doing.
07:59:04 <pikhq> Cavern of Souls? Common.
07:59:05 <zzo38> Well, if you manage to get One with Nothing in your deck for some reason such as drafting and so on, then, if it is in your hand, and then it is useful to you then please play this card.
08:00:09 <pikhq> It's something you'll be happy to play in any deck that happens to weigh towards a single creature type.
08:00:26 <pikhq> Which even in the absence of specific tribal effects, is reasonably common.
08:00:31 <ais523> I guess another example is dual land, which should be common (but putting it at rare is obviously better for revenue)
08:00:51 <pikhq> Dual lands are really good examples of this.
08:01:19 <pikhq> If I am playing with two colors, I want duals out the wazoo. I want to pretend duals are basic lands.
08:02:13 <pikhq> $100 *mana bases* are a fucking joke.
08:02:29 <ais523> my best deck is five-color combo
08:02:37 <ais523> and it basically contains all the dual lands I own
08:02:55 <pikhq> That *in specific* presents a gigantic barrier to entry for tournaments.
08:02:57 <ais523> (I move them between decks when I need them, obviously, rather than having separate lands for separate decks)
08:04:07 <pikhq> It's plausible that by doing this WotC could make *more* money, actually...
08:04:16 <pikhq> By having more people play and more people play in tournaments.
08:04:47 <pikhq> I have a sneaking suspicion the rarity issues end up driving people off the game.
08:05:09 <zzo38> Make Limited the standard game.
08:06:28 <ais523> limited is even worse, then you have to buy booster packs every game you play
08:07:33 <pikhq> And mythics only make it worse, really: I can't realistically play planeswalkers without either paying through the nose for a playset or buying *several boxes*? That's just shitty.
08:09:20 <zzo38> ais523: But Limited is a better game anyways. Perhaps if you can put the cards back in the shuffle and make up random packs at the tournament, do not need to purchase (and print!) new cards every time.
08:09:47 <ais523> even when not worrying about the cost, I prefer Constructed, but perhaps that's more to do with the sort of games I like
08:10:59 <zzo38> I prefer Limited regardless of cost, but you play how you prefer.
08:11:11 <pikhq> ais523: My preference for limited is almost exclusively due to balance.
08:12:39 <pikhq> The game's balanced around either limited or assuming everyone has $500 a block to blow.
08:13:50 <pikhq> Or, well, assuming everyone involved is on an equal financial footing, really.
08:14:06 <pikhq> Black Lotus is balanced if everybody's got one. :P
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08:17:50 <ais523> pikhq: I'm not convinced; budget decks can often get quite close to the best non-budget decks
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08:19:54 <pikhq> ais523: http://magiccards.info/mbs/en/99.html Deal with that in pauper why don't you. (okay, fine, you need a vintage card pool to make that even slightly feasible to pull out.)
08:20:54 <ais523> oblivion ring (is that common?)?
08:21:10 <pikhq> Oblivion ring got bumped to uncommon. Because... ?
08:21:22 <pikhq> Got a friend who can, with a god hand, drop that sucker turn 2.
08:21:24 <ais523> it was common once, though
08:22:21 <ais523> actually, I think white has quite a few exilers at common
08:22:38 <pikhq> Tinker, BTW, is obscenity.
08:22:40 <ais523> admittedly, you're probably going to be needing to play blue or white to deal with it at common, though
08:23:17 <ais523> because of the trample and indestructibility, missing either would give loads of ours
08:24:33 <pikhq> Also, sol ring + island + tinker = turn 2 Blightsteel.
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08:25:26 <ais523> tinker's banned in just about every format
08:25:34 <pikhq> (there is a reason sol ring and tinker are restricted, though)
08:25:46 <ais523> and a reason force of will is all over the place in formats where they're allowed
08:26:24 <ais523> losing three cards is less bad than losing the game
08:27:20 <pikhq> (I assume you didn't mean force of will?)
08:27:33 <ais523> might have got the wrong name
08:27:37 <ais523> counterspell costing pitch two
08:27:48 <pikhq> Guess it's similar at least.
08:28:03 <pikhq> Force of Will is counterspell costing 1 life and exile 1 blue card.
08:28:14 <ais523> oh, got the right name, wrong effect
08:28:19 <ais523> pitch 1 and 1 life is obviously better
08:28:30 <ais523> and so would obviously be used instead
08:28:34 <ais523> I can believe it's $50
08:28:41 <pikhq> For "heavily played" no less.
08:29:19 <pikhq> Also, recommending counterspells as a solution doesn't help with someone who also thinks counterspells are overpowered. :P
08:30:39 <ais523> it's natural that overpowered things would be necessary to deal with other overpowered things :)
08:30:47 <ais523> arguably, it's card draw that's overpowered rather than counterspells
08:30:54 <ais523> counterspells don't really work without a draw engine backing them up
08:31:30 <pikhq> I also happen to think that forms of draw effects should be in all colors...
08:32:12 <ais523> rather than just red and blue? (and red isn't allowed to get card advantage from it unless its hand is empty)
08:32:26 <pikhq> Obviously, not doable without basically rebalancing every single part of the game though. (elves with *card draw*? Holy fuck.)
08:32:45 <Sgeo> I am having a nostalgia trip right now
08:32:55 <Sgeo> Found a "Sgeo was here" sign I posted in AW in 2002
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08:36:58 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, when I have time, I can play Worms
08:37:05 <Sgeo> And I can host and I have access to Full Wormage
08:37:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a chemistry exam this afternoon so I'm not playing games before then.
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09:13:00 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I'm not signed in to Steam
09:13:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, I guess each of those items would require, on average, an investment of 200 to get, so it's not all that surprising.
09:13:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it's a chart of hats with particle effects in TF2.
09:15:31 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not even all that uncommon to see people in matches wearing them; I guess the world is just full of Gregors.
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09:30:36 <Taneb> I only have three hats in my "I like wearing these from time to time" collection
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09:35:14 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No, no, no, Gregor wears hats IRL.
09:35:28 <pikhq> The world would be a much classier place if the world was full of Gregors.
09:35:46 <pikhq> Also much more vibrant: I swear, his color choices glow.
09:35:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Also no, on account of being classy != pretending to be classy.
09:36:52 <pikhq> Y'mean hats aren't the source of class?
09:43:41 <pikhq> Reddit lied to me!
09:51:55 <ais523> `addquote <pikhq> The world would be a much classier place if the world was full of Gregors. <Phantom_Hoover> True, but how many of them are on fire?
09:52:08 <HackEgo> 855) <pikhq> The world would be a much classier place if the world was full of Gregors. <Phantom_Hoover> True, but how many of them are on fire?
09:52:27 <HackEgo> 150) <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb).
09:52:32 <HackEgo> 131) <ais523> reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays <ais523> after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it
09:52:46 <HackEgo> 5) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them.
09:52:49 <HackEgo> 168) <Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
09:52:50 <HackEgo> 428) <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, little do you realise that everything you say and do is part of that great monad tutorial we call life.
09:53:12 <ais523> I don't get 150 or 168, although 168 is less funny if you don't get it
09:53:41 <Taneb> 168 I'd say is the worst
09:53:49 <Taneb> I think 150 is funny due to its absurdity
09:53:58 <HackEgo> *poof* <Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
09:54:00 <ais523> we're in agreement, I think
09:54:10 <ais523> and elliott isn't here so he can't tell us why we're wrong
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11:44:35 <kmc> hi cheater__
11:44:39 <kmc> how's tricks
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11:52:42 <ais523> hmm, it's weird having an argument with someone on reddit where there are a bunch of people upvoting all your comments and downvoting all the comments of the person you're arguing with
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11:53:00 <ais523> strange having internet arguments and being proved right that quickly
11:55:57 <kmc> what kind of fish
11:59:18 <cheater__> it was on promotion (is that what you say?)
12:01:06 <cheater__> atlantic grain salt with a grinder, lime juice (again), lemon peppa, galgant, and a nice 3 pepper mix
12:01:43 <cheater__> i did salt on all, then tried lemon peppa several times with and without galgant, and then tried the pepper.
12:02:00 <cheater__> i expected it to be more.. lemony.
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12:02:21 <kmc> huh, didn't know that's a thing
12:02:22 <cheater__> which is fun because it smells so nice
12:02:48 <kmc> orange-flavour olive oil
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12:02:58 <cheater__> oh yeah you get lots of different flavours
12:03:12 <cheater__> lemon or vanilla ice cream with lemon olive oil
12:03:19 <kmc> galgant is like ginger right?
12:03:37 <kmc> i think it's called galangal in english
12:04:31 <cheater__> have you ever had any fresh galangal?
12:05:05 <cheater__> you take this tiny piece, like 0.5 cm on the side
12:05:38 <cheater__> and it's like, super-concentrated ginger
12:05:48 <cheater__> you like spicy stuff you gotta try it
12:06:18 <cheater__> also it may only have been the one i've had but the taste was much more bitter
12:06:23 <kmc> there's an indian grocery down the street
12:06:25 <kmc> they might have it
12:07:02 <kmc> i guess it's from southeast asia
12:07:07 <kmc> i should find a thai grocery, that would be baller
12:07:11 <cheater__> do they speak rike rear indian immiglants
12:07:14 <kmc> "Polish vodka Zoladkowa Gorzka is flavoured with galanga."
12:07:41 <cheater__> that vodka is actually the secret tip
12:07:45 <kmc> "The secret recipe includes, among others: wormwood, gentian root, pepper, and galangal."
12:07:52 <kmc> this sounds like it would taste like satan's own asshole
12:08:06 <cheater__> it's not too expensive but it kicks well and doesn't taste of potatos or any other cheap vodka taste
12:08:31 <cheater__> i have a tip for you for a drink that you'll love
12:08:37 <cheater__> you will love it cause it has tobasco on it
12:09:14 <cheater__> you need vodka, tabasco, and raspberry sirup (the kind you make soft drinks out of, not the one for topping ice cream)
12:09:38 <cheater__> you take a small shot glass, fill it 1/3 with the sirup
12:09:53 <cheater__> then you fill the rest with vodka slowly so as not to disturb the sirup
12:10:08 <cheater__> once that's in you add a drop of tobasco, it hovers nicely in a sphere above the sirup
12:10:21 <cheater__> and is said to be really good for parties
12:10:47 <cheater__> i served it on several birthdays and people loved it
12:11:28 <cheater__> possibly with "Polish vodka Zoladkowa Gorzka"
12:11:40 <cheater__> oh in case you're wondering what the name means
12:11:50 <cheater__> it translates to "stomach vodka, bitter"
12:12:14 <cheater__> i think they make it by fermenting goat stomachs or something.
12:14:11 <cheater__> Greater galangal is native to Java. It is widely used in Indonesia and Malaysia as a food flavouring and spice. Lesser galangal is native to China, growing mainly on the southeast coast. It is also grown in India and the rest of South East Asia. Although barely used in Europe today, both galangals were formerly imported in great quantity, as medicine and spice.
12:14:49 <cheater__> there are people who snuff galangal
12:14:51 <kmc> i brewed ginger beer a few times
12:14:55 <kmc> i wonder if you could make galangal beer
12:15:07 <cheater__> after all it's not like real beer is it
12:15:14 <kmc> not really
12:15:38 <cheater__> so kmc my next project might be with the yii php web framework
12:16:15 <kmc> you just like make a strong ginger tea, put sugar and yeast in, and let it sit a couple of days
12:16:40 <cheater__> actually sounds like disgusting shit
12:16:42 <kmc> it will produce a bit of alcohol but it gets un-tasty before it hits typical beer abv
12:16:55 <cheater__> i could never drink alcohol, it really dejects me
12:17:13 <kmc> why yii php
12:20:40 <cheater__> not everyone has hit it big with ksplorifice like you have kmc
12:22:52 <kmc> what kind of nuggets
12:23:51 <cheater__> but i was thinking of chicken nuggets, yes.
12:28:29 <cheater__> so apparently the galangal i have had was Greater Galangal
12:29:05 <cheater__> indians apparently only have lesser galangal, which is red
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12:35:42 <cheater__> man, american accents are so annoying in movies sometimes
12:35:59 <cheater__> always dub a british english version
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13:51:18 <ion> Tried Portal 2 in coop mode with a friend. It’s fun.
13:52:00 <kmc> network or split-screen?
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14:00:56 <ion> Over the Internet.
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14:15:13 <Gregor> <ion> Tried Portal 2 in coop mode with a friend. It’s fun.
14:15:22 <Gregor> A selected moment from coöp mode between me and a friend:
14:15:45 <Gregor> *we both enter the map, and immediately try to jump over a short fence to our deaths, failing* "Wow, I like how both of us immediately try to kill ourselves."
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14:29:44 <fizzie> The voip thing is a good idea in that particular game.
14:36:54 <ion> “Listen” http://translate.google.fi/#fi|fi|co%C3%B6peration
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14:58:49 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> A selected moment from cop mode between me and a friend:
14:58:49 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> *we both enter the map, and immediately try to jump over a short fence to our deaths, failing* "Wow, I like how both of us immediately try to kill ourselves."
14:59:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Fuckers, I've been looking for someone to play coop with for ages.
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15:07:31 <ion> The 66 % discount is still active, get a friend to purchase it now that it’s cheap.
15:15:19 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I've got a choice of two, and yet I don't.
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15:16:17 <Taneb> My computer isn't good enough :/
15:16:32 <Taneb> But now I have a choice of THREE and yet I don't
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15:18:25 <Taneb> I have a slightly more legal plan
15:18:43 <Taneb> /buy/ a better computer
15:19:08 <nortti> Taneb: how good is your computer?
15:19:47 <Taneb> nortti, good enough to play minecraft to my standards, not good enough to play minecraft to anyone else's standards
15:20:22 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, but then I'd lose my Neutral Good license!
15:21:23 <HackEgo> ? \ ais523 \ augur \ banach-tarski \ c \ cakeprophet \ category \ coffee \ comonad \ coppro \ egobot \ elliott \ endofunctor \ esoteric \ europe \ everyone \ finland \ finns \ fizzie \ flower \ friendship \ functor \ fungot \ glogbot \ gregor \ hackego \ haskell \ ievan \ intercal \ internationale \ itidus20 \ itidus21 \ kallisti \ lens \ lifthrasiir \ mad \ misspellings of croissant \ monad \ monads \ monoid \ monqy
15:21:30 <Taneb> `pastelogs `learn Hexham
15:22:02 <kmc> `? misspellings of croissant
15:22:06 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:23:01 <nortti> Taneb: I can't take seriously anyone who claims to have computer not good enough if they have computer that is much faster than mine
15:23:36 <Taneb> Do you play Portal 2 a lot?
15:23:57 <nortti> Taneb: oh. you ment for gaming
15:24:17 <itidus21> my computer had a signifigant gpu upgrade recently
15:24:25 <itidus21> but.. i am at a loss of what software to use :D
15:25:06 <itidus21> i work my computer hard with xchat
15:25:58 <Taneb> itidus21, connect to ALL the servers
15:26:17 <Taneb> And join #esoteric and complain about how now you don't know what software to use
15:26:20 <Taneb> itidus21, ALL OF THEM
15:28:12 <itidus21> ok i surrender! i have emulators, and lego wolfenstein, and some unused 3d modelling stuff,
15:28:36 <itidus21> i waste my life away like so many trailing periods..........
15:29:00 <Taneb> itidus21, get Dwarf Fortress
15:30:23 <itidus21> no no i had an evil idea about DF...
15:30:41 <Taneb> Then get Minecraft?
15:31:02 <itidus21> exactly.. the thought occured to me that DF could be rendered in voxels
15:31:25 <Taneb> It could, quite easily.
15:31:25 <HackEgo> 855) <Phantom_Hoover> i once had a dream when i was told to look after some kittens but they were made of chocolate and i ate them :(
15:31:34 <Taneb> There are programs that do that
15:32:01 <Taneb> I dunno, never used them
15:33:40 <Taneb> itidus21, http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63484.0/
15:34:18 <itidus21> for the record, i am not going to do any of these things.. but i do enjoy topics i can understand :-D
15:34:56 <Phantom_Hoover> One does not simply understan-- sorry no saying that's cutting too close to the pikhq line.
15:35:28 <itidus21> i dont understand DF proper.. but i do understand that it can be rendered :D
15:35:54 <Taneb> Hey, λnfx.n(λgh.h(gf))(λu.x)(λu.u)
15:36:52 <Taneb> λg.(λx.g(xx))(λx.g(xx))
15:40:09 <itidus21> i think there is simply no trivial way to describe what LC does illustratively
15:40:50 <itidus21> like it wouldn't be a good basis for a cartoon, or would it?
15:41:19 <kmc> http://code.google.com/p/visual-lambda/
15:41:30 <kmc> http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/
15:42:25 <Gregor> New from the makers of Dragon Ball, Lamuda Karukurusu
15:42:49 <itidus21> is it better than blue dragon probably? :D
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15:44:48 <itidus21> kmc: i think that basically.. they need to go the whole hog.. and make a 30 minute narrative based cartoon with a lambda calculus motif
15:48:15 <nortti> "Bravo! You have just written Forth in Brainfuck written in Forth."
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15:48:45 <Gregor> Boy I love how Freenode's host masking is basically useless.
15:49:57 <kmc> i hear you can set your client to authenticate to nickserv as you connect
15:50:25 <Gregor> * Phantom_Hoover (~Phantom@cpc15-sgyl29-2-0-cust133.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #esoteric
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15:50:25 <Gregor> * Phantom_Hoover (~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486) has joined #esoteric
15:50:52 <Phantom_Hoover> That's just me setting the wrong fields in XChat, as kmc says.
15:51:54 <Gregor> The problem is that even if you set up the nickserv password in the client, there's no established handshake, so it can't wait for the response.
15:52:21 <Gregor> So if you have autojoin, there's a very high chance that you will join before NickServ has authenticated you, unless NickServ is atomic w.r.t. the rest of the network, which it typically is not.
16:02:23 <itidus21> Gregor: i am a big fan of akira toriyama and it is implied you are to some degree
16:02:45 <Gregor> That is one stretch of an implication, since I have no clue what/who you're talking about.
16:03:05 <Gregor> Presumably someone (?) related to the Dragon Ball series.
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16:03:51 <coppro> Gregor: as was mentioned, if you supply your nickserv password as the PASSWORD, then the cloak is applied immediately
16:04:23 <Gregor> Ahh, I didn't know Freenode accepted the nickserv password as the network password.
16:04:23 <ais523> coppro: I don't think so; I supply mine as the password, and it doesn't happen immediately enough
16:04:25 <Gregor> Makes sense I suppose.
16:04:31 <ais523> and I also /msg nickserv afterwards just to make sure
16:04:41 <ais523> [Notice] -NickServ- You are already logged in as ais523.
16:05:06 <coppro> ais523: that sounds wrong; it is supposed to supply the cloak before you are able to join any channels
16:05:21 <coppro> Gregor: Also, there is an established handshake
16:05:44 <zzo38> coppro: Then just don't join any channel before the NickServ message comes on. The amount of time it takes varies
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16:06:55 <Taneb> If that thingy ever happens to me, tell me
16:07:42 <Gregor> <coppro> Gregor: Also, there is an established handshake // I mean established across all networks.
16:08:26 <zzo38> You can login to NickServ using the PASS command, but sometimes there may be a delay before NickServ does anything about it (I am unsure why).
16:12:16 <Gregor> Presumably it just passes it into the whole *Serv substrate, which is not atomic w.r.t. the rest of the network.
16:12:28 <Gregor> (It's essentially an agent, not a server component)
16:18:14 <itidus21> akira toriyama was behind the art and story of dragonball, but of course they always have uncredited assistants. he also did art for many video games: dragon quest, chrono trigger, tobal, blue dragon
16:24:17 <zzo38> itidus21: But it seem three of them are "dragon"
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16:26:24 <itidus21> i think dragonball is by far his greatest work
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16:30:51 * kmc reads 20IOCCC entries
16:30:56 <kmc> nice work Gregor :)
16:33:21 <Gregor> <-- only winner with indented code, too 8-D
16:34:25 <itidus21> its the sort of thing i wish i could make myself.. i can't figure it out for the life of me how someone can just make a dragon ball story happen..
16:45:32 <itidus21> the methodology i have been trying is to fight convention, as if modern authors and artists had been swept out to sea by a riptide of convention
16:45:43 <itidus21> but i haven't been trying very hard
16:51:15 <Phantom_Hoover> You realise that having "fighting convention" as your entire creative vision inevitably just ends up with a piece of crap.
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16:52:48 <itidus21> i basically think that whatever kind of video games i make will be crappy in the same way as scott mccloud's zot comics are inherently quite crappy
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16:56:02 <itidus21> crappy can be interpreted as, probably noone wants to own the license
16:57:26 <itidus21> its very true that i just can't ignore the fact that he wrote a book about comics more popular than any actual comic he made
17:05:30 <itidus21> but he takes it in good jest http://scottmccloud.com/1-webcomics/misc/notneil.jpg
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17:42:53 <Taneb> Is it just me, or does the internet seem quite left-wing?
17:43:39 <kmc> probably it's just you
17:43:56 <kmc> by which i mean, the internet makes it easy to only interact with people who agree with you politically
17:44:20 <Taneb> That is a fair point
17:44:58 <kmc> and indeed makes it easy to only interact with people who believe the same factually incorrect things as you
17:45:01 <kmc> which is troubling
17:45:53 <Taneb> Wow, I've never thought of it like that
17:46:34 <cheater__> kmc: chorizo and mushroom spaghetti
17:47:19 <cheater__> <kmc> and indeed makes it easy to only interact with people who believe the same factually incorrect things as you
17:47:19 <cheater__> <Taneb> Wow, I've never thought of it like that""" <<< how meta-recursive
17:48:16 <kmc> http://www.abovetopsecret.com/
17:49:50 <Gregor> <Taneb> Is it just me, or does the internet seem quite left-wing? // I'mma go read Conservapedia kthx
17:50:56 <kmc> cheater__: that's because of the government UFO filtering chip installed in your prefrontal cortex by FEMA
17:51:33 <Gregor> In 1884, meridian time personnel met in Washington to change Earth time. First words said was that only 1 day could be used on Earth to not change the 1 day bible. So they applied the 1 day and ignored the other 3 days.
17:53:54 <Gregor> The ONEist educated with their flawed 1 eye perspective (opposite eyes overlay) Cyclops mentality, inflicts static non pulsating logos as a fictitious queer same sex transformation.
17:53:59 <Gregor> You tell 'em, Gene Ray! X-D
17:59:22 <cheater__> educated stupid by your cocksucker god
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18:01:30 <Gregor> It's amazing how he manages to seamlessly merge his hatred for religion, science, government, homosexuality and academia.
18:07:54 <kmc> http://www.bentoandstarchky.com/dec/containmentpolicy.htm
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18:40:52 <itidus21> "whoa shit, the number 1 is overloaded with symbolism"
18:41:05 <itidus21> (disclaimer: not an actual quotation)
18:43:07 <itidus21> sooner or later technology will be imposed upon our bodies
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18:43:55 <Kray> I want a brain gateway to my irssi
18:44:13 <itidus21> you think you want that.. but.. its not good idea...
18:46:35 <itidus21> any advantages you can derive from direct brain interfaces will become disadvantages once the establishment is geared up
18:47:32 <coppro> Gregor: how does your IOCCC work?
18:48:09 <cheater__> in my vision, i was on the veranda of a vast estate, a palazzo of some fantastic proportion
18:48:32 <cheater__> itidus21: you sound like rex curry.
18:49:08 <itidus21> yibbada yibbada.. thank your mother for the rabbits
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18:50:50 <zzo38> Did you know about the various online quiz systems? I try to write compare including the my own program (Internet Quiz Engine).
18:51:06 <zzo38> I also included the text from Wikipedia
18:52:35 <itidus21> The world needs more good quizzes like some given exceedingly deficient thing needs a massive supplement!!
18:53:43 <zzo38> itidus21: Make up a quiz file on Internet Quiz Engine.
18:55:56 <itidus21> the trouble with multiple option dialogue trees is that each node of the tree feels like it's written as follows
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18:56:18 <itidus21> 1) define several branches in terms of some concrete decision or alignment
18:56:43 <itidus21> 2) write in text inspired by the decision or the alignment
18:56:44 <zzo38> Well, in this case it is simply ordered, it is not a tree. But it does support skipping questions based on the answers to previous questions.
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18:56:52 <itidus21> 3) expect people not to notice :D
18:57:22 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine supports up to 26 counters you can keep track of, and when displaying the results you can compare them with each other and with constants.
18:57:24 <itidus21> i propose that a better system would be to make the dialogue more random in nature
18:57:54 <itidus21> . o O (wtf is a dialog anyway.. sounds like webster's handywork)
19:05:37 <itidus21> the explanation is as good as inconclusive
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19:29:04 <Gregor> <coppro> Gregor: how does your IOCCC work? // quite well, thank you.
19:29:20 <Gregor> (Dig into it a bit, I'll answer /specific/ questions ;) )
19:35:01 <nortti> Gregor: I still haven't quite figured it out
19:37:42 <nortti> IOCCC entries are evil
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19:38:09 <Gregor> I can deal with that *shrugs*
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19:45:34 <olsner> Gregor: I'm lazy, please tell me everything about how it works
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19:46:19 <HackEgo> dessos: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:46:46 <Gregor> olsner: It draws magical machine code from the aether, and then JITs it into the spirit of children all over the world.
19:47:41 <oerjan> ah, the olde powered by a forsaken child trope
19:48:04 <oerjan> or possibly the reverse
19:50:05 <nortti> <wm4> to burn Linux logs, you need a degree in physics and chemistry <wm4> unless you use logbuntu (then reading chemistry books without understanding them is enough) <wm4> (you'll also burn down your house)
19:54:32 <cheater__> <itidus21> sooner or later technology will be imposed upon our bodies << ahahahahahaha
19:54:46 <cheater__> what do you think you eat, drink, get administered
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20:01:02 <oerjan> aspiring technologists with aspergers
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20:08:25 <Taneb> There should be a Murderous Maths: Slimy Sets and Crazy Categories
20:09:22 <oklopol> praised be the inaccessible cardinal
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20:10:54 <oklopol> hey wouldn't it be funny if there was this esoteric version of math where ordinals were these seriously fucked up things that make you cry with a smile on your face every time you prove stuff about them
20:11:31 <Taneb> This is where I regret leaning what ordinal means via linguistics rather than mathematics
20:11:39 <oklopol> by maths, or by esoteric version of math?
20:12:17 <oklopol> (i said maths because i prefer to use the term most recently used)
20:12:46 <Taneb> AND THEN RANDOMLY SWITCH TWO LINES LATER
20:13:02 <cheater__> maths are an eigenvector of esoteric
20:13:20 <oklopol> yeah i couldn't use that ridiculous term twice in a row
20:13:56 <oklopol> do you mean no one here can do math?
20:14:42 <cheater__> no i mean that usual math is esoteric as it gets
20:14:58 <cheater__> what sort of music do you listen to
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20:15:05 <Taneb> But math is short for mathematics!
20:15:14 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmfzWpp0hMc
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20:15:42 <oklopol> do you want like a list or what
20:15:50 <oklopol> anything complicated that i find structure in
20:16:13 <Taneb> Like robotics and hydraulics, but mathsier!
20:16:17 <oklopol> faceless, born of osiris, animals as leaders, after the burial etc
20:16:30 <oklopol> biosphere doesn't ring a bell
20:16:54 <oklopol> can you link something of theirs
20:17:31 <oklopol> can you suggest a song, ambient isn't really my style
20:17:56 <cheater__> not really the whole cd needs to be heard to have the effect
20:17:57 <oklopol> if i like something with less than 10 notes a second, it's an anomaly
20:20:57 <oklopol> also 10 notes per second is not _really_ a necessary condition. but fast music is usually more interesting.
20:21:47 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-mJPxUt8RE name is fitting, this is hyperboring.
20:23:46 <oklopol> well i guess (04)^\infty is as good a sequence as any.
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20:28:22 <oklopol> so how long is this substrata
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20:45:54 <kmc> did you know Unicode has characters to use a character cell as a 4-pixel block?
20:45:54 <lambdabot> kmc: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:45:57 <kmc> ▘▝▀▖▌▞▛▗▚▐▜▄▙▟█
20:45:57 <lambdabot> cheater__ said 48m 59s ago: sup aspy
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22:47:20 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I have Portal 2 for what it's worth
22:47:55 <Sgeo> Why, are you trying to find someone who hasn't?
22:48:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott a) hasn't, b) wants to but c) can't be arsed to actually get Portal 2.
22:56:18 <Sgeo> Can a current Agoran tell me what the deal is with the taunt the police mechanic?
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23:05:52 <Sgeo> `welcome dessos
23:05:55 <HackEgo> dessos: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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23:40:44 <zzo38> In Astrolog, when I try to do transit calculation for house cusps it doesn't work. So I tried using flipped sign/houses but that causes the program to crash when flipped sign/houses are selected.
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01:00:30 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/Iof5s.jpg
01:01:31 <Gregor> Please tell me that's real Finnish.
01:01:45 <ion> It is indeed.
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02:13:22 <zzo38> I have made a table to review four online quiz systems: Internet Quiz Engine, Quizilla, OkCupid, and FunTrivia. Some information I got from Wikipedia, some by trying, and the first one is my own program. If you have information about these, or suggest for additional systems to compare, tell me please.
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02:14:27 <zzo38> Do you know the maximum number of questions and maximum choices per question and maximum number of results for Quizilla? Do you know what programming language Quizilla and FunTrivia are written in?
02:15:10 <quintopia> zzo38: what are your requirements for "quiz system"? does something like surveymonkey count?
02:16:18 <zzo38> quintopia: No. (Although I may make a way to conduct polls using IRC, in future.) (Also, if you have any feature suggestion of Internet Quiz Engine, tell me that too.)
02:16:30 <zzo38> (Or, if you have any comparison rows to suggest in the table.)
02:17:35 <zzo38> quintopia: It is difficult. I used Wikipedia's article about "Online quiz" for now
02:18:18 <quintopia> i didnt even know okc was still supporting their quiz system
02:18:25 <zzo38> (There is a German service there, but I do not know well reading German, so I will omit that one unless someone can provide me all the information for each row in the table)
02:20:23 <zzo38> quintopia: As far as I can tell, they are, and no account is required to run the quiz editor on OkCupid, either. And it appears to have some similarities to Internet Quiz Engine.
02:21:15 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0textfile/miscellaneous/onlinequiz.txt http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/onlinequiz.txt
02:22:34 <zzo38> If any information is incorrect or missing, and you know the correct entry, please notify me.
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06:02:50 <pikhq_> Why would you stick upscaled video on a Bluray?
06:03:18 <pikhq_> "Yeah, uh, it was originally 480i, but... Fuck you, we're giving you 1080p with no gain in quality."
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06:44:14 <olsner> pikhq_: because the bluray sells for more money?
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06:49:23 <pikhq_> No reason you couldn't stick better-compressed 480i or 480p video on there though.
06:50:07 <olsner> maybe if you do that you can't stick that HD 1080p logo on the back of it
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07:03:21 <fizzie> You can't stick in 480p video, it's not legal.
07:03:50 <fizzie> The primary video stream must be one of six "HD" formats, or one of two (480i at NTSC rates, 576i at PAL) "SD" ones.
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07:05:08 <fizzie> (C.f. http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/Downloadablefile/BD-ROM_Audio_Visual_Application_Format_Specifications-18780.pdf pages 14-15, "Primary video stream".)
07:06:04 <pikhq> Almost all 480p video is 480p24... And one of the weirder things about MPEG-2 container formats is it's possible to mux 480p24 so that it plays back as a 480i30 stream, which *ought* to be legal on Blu-ray...
07:06:18 <pikhq> (it is on DVDs, and is *extensively* used)
07:06:58 <fizzie> "720x480x59.94-i" is the 480i format, if that's what you mean, yes.
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07:07:53 <pikhq> ... Wait, it's 720x480? The single most ridiculous choice of resolutions?
07:08:21 <fizzie> That's what the pdf above says.
07:08:35 <pikhq> Kay, so the people who did Blu-ray were clueless.
07:08:57 <fizzie> It also says that "real" 480p24 (and 480p23.976) is allowed in the secondary video stream.
07:09:18 <fizzie> (For the picture-in-picture feature.)
07:10:24 <pikhq> 720x480 includes the nominal analogue blanking, making it the single least convenient digital video resolution to deal with.
07:10:58 <pikhq> And so nearly everything handles it wrong, instead just playing it as straight 4:3 or 16:9.
07:12:12 <pikhq> Instead of either playing it at the appropriate pixel aspect ratio, or imitating analog TV behavior by displaying the active picture area as 4:3 or 16:9.
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07:27:28 <fizzie> Well, I mean, one assumes they're following the DVD-Video spec there; according to secondary sources (the official isn't anywhere, of course) it allows (for NTSC) 720x480 and 704x480, but actual "anamorphic" 16:9 only when the "full-D1" (720x480) resolution is used.
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07:31:55 <pikhq> *Nice* violation of Rec. 601 there.
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08:19:20 <zzo38> I played very short Dungeons&Dragons today
08:19:33 <Taneb> Were you all dwarves and halflings?
08:21:24 <Taneb> Unless you are going on and I've lost connection, which is a distinct possibility
08:21:24 <Taneb> Yep, I've lost connection
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08:22:48 <zzo38> Taneb: No. It is continuation of the same game as before, just a session of a short duration.
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09:01:29 <Sgeo> What will be the new nickname?
09:01:34 <Sgeo> DF2012 is taken
09:06:32 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
09:06:55 <Phantom_Hoover> toady's released like 4 non-save-compatible updates thus far
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09:10:36 <Taneb> Does this mean I'll have to start my fortress AGAIN!?
09:26:08 <cheater__> don't pretend it hasn't been ransacked yet
09:26:42 <Madoka-Kaname> Phantom_Hoover, is this one non-save-compatible still?
09:28:50 <Phantom_Hoover> It's half the reason I'm get to properly get back into DF.
09:29:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It's... really not a game for backwards compatibility.
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09:29:40 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I think the notes say that it is save-compatible?
09:31:23 <Taneb> To my knowledge, Minecraft only has 5 non-save-compatible families
09:31:51 <Taneb> No, the last 3 are on different platforms
09:31:56 <Taneb> There's classic and indev
09:32:16 <Taneb> And then infdev/alpha/beta/"full" release
09:32:22 <Taneb> And mobile and 360
09:32:33 <Taneb> I believe iOS and Android versions are co-compatible
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09:46:11 <Madoka-Kaname> I thought on the PC, there have been 4 formats so far.
09:46:27 <Taneb> Yeah, but they included converters
09:46:28 <Madoka-Kaname> Classic, Beta, first file-system like format, Anvil
09:46:41 <Taneb> And there's been more than that
09:47:32 <Taneb> Classic and Indev had their own formats
09:48:24 <Taneb> There's Alpha format, Region format, then Anvil format
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10:28:14 <Sgeo> http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Fuel
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10:28:28 <Sgeo> WE GET THE POINT, THEY'RE IDENTICAL FOR ALL IN-GAME PURPOSES
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10:31:01 <Taneb> PatashuXantheres, you're getting longer
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10:33:32 <Taneb> On another note, Homestuck Anthem still sounds like a ping-pong match to me
10:42:49 <fizzie> Taneb: Homestuck Anthem and a ping-pong match are identical for all in-game purposes.
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13:36:39 <cheater_> and bro is of course short for brogrammer
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14:09:54 <itidus21> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1989-05-28/
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14:18:48 <kmc> the truth about the world is that crime does pay
14:21:35 <itidus21> so if you leave now then who's gonna play?
14:22:48 <itidus21> cos i'd like to think the world was a better place
14:23:01 <itidus21> i'd like to leave the world as a better place
14:23:35 <itidus21> ^so if you walk away, then who's gonna stay?
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14:36:01 <kmc> itidus21 understands
14:37:10 <itidus21> but i acknowledge that it doesn't mean i agree.. nor that i get the meaning of it
14:37:37 <itidus21> not that i don't want to agree or anything
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14:51:25 <itidus21> https://images.4chan.org/mu/src/1336752176872.png :>
14:51:46 <itidus21> i still had that open in my browser
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15:01:36 <itidus21> it was that nef quintero thing
15:05:07 <cheater_> oh yeah, gotta love that nef quintero thing
15:10:44 <quintopia> nef quintero sounds vaguely familiar
15:11:10 <Taneb> Sounds a bit like something Intel might do
15:14:50 <cheater_> although: http://www.facebooktroll.com/2011/06/nef-quintero-is-going-to-hack-into-your-computers-and-beat-you-up/
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15:30:49 <itidus21> i'm starting to see things from nef's point of view though
15:31:18 <Taneb> itidus21, read Timecube, tell me how it goes
15:32:00 <itidus21> i have heard of timecube.. i don't want to mess my head up any further honestly
15:32:55 <itidus21> i ended up on one such page.. it was bad enough
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15:36:57 <cheater_> http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/05/15/congratulations-on-the-divorce-norway/
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15:42:45 <itidus21> i guess nef is what i would be if i was more aggressive, rude and risk-taking sort of person
15:43:52 <Taneb> And 20 years younger
15:45:42 <itidus21> gradually i am coming to terms with the core ultimatums, tradeoffs, and decisions of life
16:07:05 -!- Lumpio_ has joined.
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16:24:32 -!- zzo38 has joined.
16:24:50 <zzo38> How to compare yesterday's temperature with today?
16:27:03 <Taneb> I'd say about the same?
16:27:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:28:57 <cheater_> Taneb: best optimization ever.
16:30:40 <zzo38> I mean in the city I am at
16:30:57 <Taneb> Which city'd that be?
16:31:02 <zzo38> Actually, I mean in Vancouver, BC, which is near where I am at
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16:32:12 <Taneb> I'd say probably cooler, given the data I've found in 30 secs of looking
16:49:00 <cheater_> ubuntu 12.04 installer displays @ubuntu tweets.
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17:23:21 <quintopia> "There exist NP-complete problems for which the best known running times have the form O(2^(n^c)) for c < 1, and if the best possible running time for 3-SAT were of this form..."
17:23:51 <quintopia> Why does this say "if"? doesn't a subexponential time algorithm for any NP-complete problem imply a subexponential time algorithm for 3-SAT?
17:24:45 <quintopia> (namely by running the reduction of 3-SAT to that other problem, which involves solving that other problem a polynomial number of times)
17:25:00 <kmc> cheater_: wow
17:28:56 <cheater_> it'd be like unreal tournament
17:29:02 <cheater_> have you ever played unreal tournament, kmc?
17:29:33 <cheater_> it has a multiplayer server browser
17:29:58 <cheater_> and it automatically connected to #utgames on some irc server
17:30:21 <cheater_> i used to know the admin of that thing
17:30:27 <cheater_> at some point he got tired of tens of thousands of clients constantly connecting and disconnecting
17:30:41 <cheater_> and blocked the unreal tournament irc client from connecting at all
17:35:03 <cheater_> so kmc, while this yii guy is still trying to figure out my cv (he's sending me questions about it) i got contacted by some guy today for some other php job
17:35:29 <cheater_> apparently i need to know OOP PHP5.
17:36:14 <cheater_> and i need to know how to write APIs.
17:37:24 <cheater_> and it's a good to have if i can build high availability clusters
17:41:11 <cheater_> kmc: come to europe and write clusters with me
17:41:18 <cheater_> we'll implement NFS over HTTPS
17:41:20 <kmc> where in europe
17:41:29 <cheater_> i thought you kept up with my migrations
17:41:50 <cheater_> because fuck moving for a job right now
17:42:54 <cheater_> actually we could implement NFS over Token Ring over Frame Relay over RS-485 over UDP over HTTP
17:43:25 <kmc> RS-485 for the win
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17:51:14 <cheater_> kmc if i have an URL which applies to many reddits then can i link it to all of them
17:51:28 <cheater_> not sure if my wording is correct
17:51:37 <cheater_> i'm not up to it when it comes to new things
17:51:42 <kmc> i don't know a way other than submitting indivdually to each
17:52:08 <cheater_> yea but is this 1. possible 2. allowed
17:52:33 -!- Taneb has joined.
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17:54:37 <kmc> i've done it many times and haven't been yelled at
17:54:40 <kmc> but i kind of hate reddit
17:54:47 <kmc> but i still submit there because i want my things to be seen
17:57:10 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
17:57:51 <kmc> actually there's no "kind of"
17:57:52 <cheater_> reddit is the scum of the earth
17:58:49 <cheater_> or Stahlharte Jungs if you prefer that sort of thing
17:58:55 <kmc> i learned a new word today
17:58:58 <kmc> thanks cheater_
17:59:21 <kmc> no it was Grossbusige
18:00:19 <kmc> Bier und großbusige Frauen und Schnellzüge
18:00:25 <AnotherTest> Well the dutch word is 'bier'(without the capital)
18:01:02 <cheater_> AnotherTest: exactly, that means the edit distance IS NOT ZERO
18:01:07 <kmc> what's Fickstuten
18:02:15 <cheater_> kmc: you should capitalize that, otherwise you're not allowed to perform the action
18:04:02 <AnotherTest> Hm. German is a nice language, at least I think.
18:04:09 <Taneb> Ich haben ein nicht knowledge of the German language
18:05:31 <cheater_> wow lambdabot you are so uncool
18:05:42 <cheater_> everyone knows trollcoins are the new, free currency
18:05:50 <kmc> the free currency that anyone can edit
18:07:15 <cheater_> damnit lambdabot why are you so retarded
18:07:28 <cheater_> why won't you ever learn when we're talking to you
18:07:47 <cheater_> so kmc, i've been thinking about this whole issue of a child learning for years how to do the most basic things
18:07:55 <cheater_> and the AIs not having that much time to themselves
18:08:37 <cheater_> and i think that's kind of bullshit, because people should be able to play back courses to the AI in accelerated time
18:09:13 <cheater_> brr, my blood chills when i think of an AI raised with a selenium test suite
18:09:47 <cheater_> but wouldn't that be absolutely amazing
18:10:12 <cheater_> to be able to create an intelligence, and finely tune every aspect of its psyche by being able to rewrite every moment in its upbringing
18:10:36 <cheater_> you could have it not only trained by the most amazing people in the world, but also have them go back and fix possible issues
18:11:02 <cheater_> it'd be like the road to perfecting the human psyche
18:11:12 <cheater_> there's a movie in there somewhere
18:11:16 <cheater_> also a joke, but i got nothin'
18:12:04 <kmc> brb, going to feed birds in the park
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18:14:56 <cheater_> omg, kmc you're such a homeless person
18:15:24 <cheater_> i bet "brb" just means "wait while i close the laptop lid and put it in my shopping cart"
18:18:18 <Taneb> He seems to be taking a long while to close the laptop lid
18:19:56 -!- nortti has joined.
18:20:02 <cheater_> don't be fooled, he's on a bouncer
18:20:34 <AnotherTest> cheater_: the problem is mainly that current (chat) Ai works with detection of patterns but can't place something in a context
18:20:57 <cheater_> i was talking about ai in general
18:21:05 <cheater_> like, you know, hard intelligence
18:21:29 <AnotherTest> Computers are probably just not big enough then
18:21:57 <nortti> awesome! My calcilator broke and ee have math exam (trigonomeyric fictions) tomorrow
18:22:00 <Taneb> I reckon computers are big enough, just nobody's figured out the trick yet
18:22:07 <AnotherTest> well compared to the human brain of course
18:22:35 <Taneb> nortti, cos 0 = 1; sin 0 = 0
18:22:41 <Taneb> That's all you need to know
18:22:49 <AnotherTest> Taneb: they need a supercomputer to simulate the human brain for less than a second(I read that somewhere)
18:23:32 <AnotherTest> nortti: just imagine a circle in your mind
18:23:52 <Taneb> They don't need to simulate the human brain to replicate intelligence
18:23:54 <nortti> Taneb: umh. maybe I just try to use,my slide rule
18:24:03 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
18:24:03 <zzo38> Find a table of trigonometry. Perhaps you can print it out from your computer, if it is permitted
18:24:05 <Taneb> Slide rules have trig?
18:24:12 <Taneb> I thought they did logs
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18:24:22 <Taneb> Man, the past is an amazing place
18:24:29 <nortti> Taneb: well mine has sin
18:24:32 <AnotherTest> Taneb: true, but it means that intelligence is really complicated
18:24:37 <zzo38> Taneb: My slide rule has trig, logs, and more. Different slide rules have different functions, some are fancy and have many, while some have only multiplication
18:24:39 -!- monqy has joined.
18:24:59 <zzo38> I have a slide rule too
18:25:22 <Taneb> I want a slide rule...
18:25:28 <quintopia> i have one in the drawer over there
18:25:41 <quintopia> i want a curta, but they are ungettable without thousands of dollars
18:25:57 <nortti> zzo38: I don't have printer. If I write something I use my electronic typewriter
18:26:43 <olsner> you have a typewriter? are you from the past?
18:26:51 <nortti> quintopia: try asking your relatives. That's where I got minr
18:27:08 <quintopia> nortti: my relatives are not sciencey
18:27:10 <zzo38> nortti: OK, then you have to type it by hand, even if calculated by computer
18:27:25 <zzo38> quintopia: I do not know what that mean
18:28:06 <zzo38> OK, perhaps later I will look it on Google or Wikipedia
18:28:14 <nortti> olsner: I have time travelled from year 1997 to chat in this channel
18:28:28 <zzo38> I ordinarily prefer Wikipedia
18:28:33 <olsner> nortti: cool! welcome to our century, traveller
18:28:55 <AnotherTest> nortti: Can I barrow your time machine?(assuming that's how you got here)
18:29:38 <nortti> AnotherTest: I don't have time machine. it was xkcd reference
18:29:56 <cheater_> <AnotherTest> Computers are probably just not big enough then < yeah but improving computer
18:30:03 <cheater_> <AnotherTest> Computers are probably just not big enough then < yeah but improving computer performance is a solved problem
18:30:38 <Taneb> nortti's time machine: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003124
18:30:59 <AnotherTest> people say it is, although I'm not convinced
18:33:33 <quintopia> i have travelled from the year 1986 to tell you this: you are really young, nortti
18:34:20 <Taneb> 1997? that's as old as my brother!
18:34:56 <AnotherTest> cheater_: NEVER might be an overstatement; not in the near future?
18:42:29 <AnotherTest> well I guess you can keep on making something smaller forever
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18:54:49 <lambdabot> *Exception: Ratio.%: zero denominator
19:02:53 <Taneb> > sqrt (-1) :: Complex
19:02:54 <lambdabot> Expecting an ordinary type, but found a type of kind * -> *
19:02:59 <Taneb> > sqrt (-1) :: Complex Double
19:03:22 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `+'
19:03:38 <AnotherTest> I thought operators were prefix in lambda expressions
19:03:38 <Taneb> Because + is infix
19:03:48 <Taneb> This is Haskell, not Lambda
19:04:08 <Taneb> > (+) 1 2 + (+) 3 4
19:04:32 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
19:04:40 <Taneb> > let a = 5 in a ^ 2
19:04:49 -!- nooga has joined.
19:04:55 <Taneb> Read that if you want to learn Haskel
19:05:10 <itidus21> do most people who learn haskell already know LC? :D
19:05:26 <Taneb> itidus21, I'd presume not
19:06:35 <lambdabot> http://www.realworldhaskell.org/blog/ http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/
19:06:43 <Taneb> AnotherTest, that's another alternative
19:07:45 <Taneb> (you don't need to know why that works until later)
19:07:56 <itidus21> judging by the way my face grinched at the idea .. i won't ask that question again
19:10:13 <HackEgo> 597) <Taneb> I think this has taught us one thing. We can't teach itidus20 lambda calculus by comittee
19:10:19 <HackEgo> 2011-07-16.txt:00:00:57: -!- itidus20 has joined #esoteric. \ 2011-07-16.txt:03:40:55: <itidus20> zzo, sort of like how stage hypnosis is supposed to work eh. \ 2011-07-16.txt:03:42:10: <itidus20> i've seen an [obviously staged] video of a guy who hypnotized a woman to think he was invisible and then he would tickle her with a feather and make her look up with confusion \ 2011-07-16.txt:03:42:20: <itidus20> on youtube
19:13:24 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25272
19:13:41 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:14:55 <itidus21> oh gods.. i'm really the worst.
19:16:06 <Taneb> itidus21, you're great.
19:16:12 <Taneb> We all love you for being you.
19:17:23 <Taneb> Isn't that right, ais523?
19:17:51 -!- myndzi has joined.
19:17:51 <itidus21> i like me.. its not a cause for guilt or sympathy.. but.. comparing myself to other wild ones who come here
19:18:49 <Taneb> Your rambles really cheer me up
19:20:24 <itidus21> the reason i looked up my logs is to find a particular ramble.. and i wanted to see if something i just did was unconcious plagiarism :D
19:22:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:24:32 <ais523> Taneb: it's better for someone to be themself than someone else
19:25:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
19:37:41 <itidus21> <oklofok> itidus20: i think it's better to prevent reaching the middle altogether
19:38:58 <itidus21> <oerjan> Taneb: imagine a square where the sides are glued to each other, but not by actually bending the square, instead by making the sides be teleportation portals...
19:40:31 <zzo38> But topologically I think it would be the same thing either way
19:40:57 <itidus21> yes.. what i ended up doing was very simple.. diabolically simple even
19:41:19 -!- Aardwolf has joined.
19:43:53 <itidus21> http://oi50.tinypic.com/xxd89.jpg
19:44:30 <itidus21> the circle is a HUD map.. which basically was the missing piece i needed combined with what oklo said that middle of the thing shouldn't be accessible
19:46:01 <itidus21> since the HUD map could potentially go a long way to create the illusion that you are walking around a round planet
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19:51:35 <itidus21> the quality of mspaintadventures seems way up
19:55:07 <Taneb> itidus21, http://www.mspaintadventures.com/cascade.php?s=6&p=6009
19:56:52 <itidus21> i just remembered this really low quality art about 2 guys doing some weird stuff
19:57:54 <kmc> cheater_: i'm back
19:57:58 <kmc> the birds didn't want my food
19:58:30 <Taneb> itidus21, it hasn't been like that since 2006
19:58:48 <Taneb> In 2007, it was medium quality about one guy doing some weird stuff
20:05:13 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:06:33 <Taneb> Wearing wizard hats and marx masks and smoking pipes
20:07:00 <Taneb> Now it's high quality art about LOADS AND LOADS OF FREAKING CHARACTERS doing REALLY WEIRD STUFF
20:07:43 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: goodnight).
20:12:53 -!- itidus21 has joined.
20:14:01 <itidus21> taneb: that was too creepy for me
20:19:15 <zzo38> Please read gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0phlog*c_prog.ibtlfmm-part-i
20:20:03 <cheater_> kmc: i don't think i'd want your food either.
20:20:25 <cheater_> it's probably full of tobasco.
20:20:47 <zzo38> What kind of food is it?
20:23:09 <kmc> zzo38: that is a super sketchy URL
20:23:16 <kmc> cheater_: it was stale bread
20:23:19 <kmc> like croutons almost
20:23:22 <kmc> no tobasco
20:24:28 <cheater_> you apparently must still improve at being the pidgeon lady
20:25:36 <kmc> pidgin lady
20:25:39 <kmc> the problem is, we had competition
20:25:44 <kmc> some guy throwing fresh bread
20:25:53 <kmc> damn city pigeons, they have it so good
20:25:56 <kmc> me and my girlfriend
20:26:09 <cheater_> is she a 45 year old truck driver
20:26:30 <kmc> i'm just a splatter, splatter, splatter on the windshield of life
20:26:55 <cheater_> is she more interesting and h0t than me
20:27:52 <kmc> i don't know cheater_
20:28:29 <cheater_> you inched this ----> <---- close to getting your head ripped off
20:30:37 <cheater_> does this mean i'm not your #1 any more
20:37:34 <cheater_> so i have not been replaced as your only reason to get up in the morning
20:38:27 <cheater_> hey btw, have you noticed that the new logitech keyboards have this funny rounded space bar
20:38:42 <cheater_> instead of like the classical rectangular bar
20:39:03 <cheater_> much easier to hit with the thumb
20:42:24 <cheater_> it tapers off so the front edge is much lower than the edge facing the keys
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21:31:38 <zzo38> kmc: What does a super sketchy URL mean?
21:37:33 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
21:59:21 <ion> R.U. a Cyberpunk? http://d.asset.soup.io/asset/3167/2077_6fd2.jpeg
22:15:13 <nortti> how old id that image?
22:16:12 -!- tiMMe has joined.
22:16:21 <tiMMe> Hello all bright minds
22:16:31 <tiMMe> after a bit of research I found this irc chan
22:16:55 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:17:26 <tiMMe> I could use some help with decoding a ''turing esoteric'' code
22:17:54 <ais523> you have a program in an esolang but don't know the language? or something else?
22:18:14 <tiMMe> no, Its a hobby of mine.. and to get to the next hint.. i need to crack this one
22:18:25 <tiMMe> I had no idea what this was before 10 min ago
22:18:28 <ais523> you're missing some context, I think
22:18:56 -!- MoALTz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:19:23 <ais523> as in, you haven't given me enough information to explain what you're trying to do
22:19:27 -!- MoALTz has joined.
22:20:04 <tiMMe> well this is somewhat like a treasure hunt.. the clue i need to get to the next part, is decrypted..
22:20:20 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:20:24 <tiMMe> well, I don't know what to call it
22:20:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving").
22:20:31 <tiMMe> its written in this coe
22:20:51 <tiMMe> Could I post a pastebin link, and you could take a look at it
22:20:59 <ais523> OK, might help to explain things
22:21:57 <tiMMe> Would you mind taking a look at it for me? maybe you'll understand it
22:22:10 <tiMMe> http://pastebin.com/eLJVk507
22:23:35 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:24:50 <zzo38> I cannot figure it out yet, but I tried. I can see it consists of letters P,Q,R,S,T,U,V and spaces.
22:25:23 <ais523> tiMMe: are you sure that's an esolang? or just a regular code?
22:25:29 <ais523> I guess regular codes are almost ontopic here too…
22:25:48 <tiMMe> well I asked for another hint, and he said turing esoteric
22:25:50 <zzo38> Including long runs of Q, some runs of T as well. But, I do am just guessing it to be a regular code, and not any kind of computer program
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22:26:35 <tiMMe> Its probably only a code, not a computer program
22:27:00 <ais523> this channel's mostly about programming
22:27:03 <tiMMe> if you decypher it, it will give me directions, coordinates or something
22:27:12 <tiMMe> okay.. sorry about that. had no idea
22:27:38 <tiMMe> Do you have any idea where I could get help with this type of thing?
22:27:56 <ais523> here's probably not actually that bad a place, even though it's offtopic
22:28:03 <Gregor> There is probably a significance to the offsets between the letters, i.e. it's encoding something like 1,0,0,1,1,-2,0,0,...
22:28:23 <tiMMe> Well you guys came to more conclutions in 2 min, than me and my friends did in 4-5 hours :P
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22:28:44 <zzo38> Discuss it here if you want; we are often not on topic anyways, but you can try something more relevant channel may work
22:28:50 <zzo38> Gregor: I was thinking of that too
22:29:16 <ais523> perhaps the six letters correspond to the six 3D compass directions?
22:29:24 <ais523> could be forming the route through a 3D maze
22:29:25 <zzo38> I also noticed the sequence "PQQQRSQQQQPTUSQV PQQQQQQQQQRSTTTTTTTTTPTUSTV" appearing twice
22:29:55 <zzo38> Also, every code word ends with "V"
22:30:04 <tiMMe> Above the "code" it says this : Crack the code to find its whereabouts... | That's why I think its coordinates
22:30:08 <Gregor> Oh, good catches, both.
22:30:44 <Gregor> In fact, they all contain PTUS, then zero or more (but few) characters, then V at the end.
22:30:58 <Gregor> (And all start with PQQ, but that's a bit more obvious)
22:31:23 <zzo38> Actually, the offsets between the letters do not seem relevant to me due to the way what letters are used and their patterns
22:31:38 <zzo38> Gregor: But, yes those too, are something to consider
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22:33:43 <tiMMe> Would you want the website where I've gotten the code? Maybe its easier to look at it there
22:34:03 <zzo38> tiMMe: Do you have any more context, such as, what would this be the whereabouts of?
22:34:14 <tiMMe> yeah, look at this link
22:34:15 <tiMMe> http://coord.info/GC3K55F
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22:45:21 <zzo38> That is difficult.
22:46:23 <itidus21> could it be one of those languages where its not concerned with the symbols but the patterns they form?
22:47:32 <zzo38> Nevertheless I think that the spaces delimit code words and each one is separate from each other
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23:00:31 <itidus21> 1)each codeword always starts with P
23:00:38 <itidus21> 2)after intial P there is always a sequence of 2 - 9 Q's
23:00:48 <itidus21> 3)after the sequence of Q's there is always RS
23:01:02 <itidus21> 4)the RS is always followed by either a sequence of 3 - 10 Q's or a sequence of 3 - 9 T's
23:03:24 <itidus21> 5)this is always followed by PTU
23:04:57 <oklopol> looks like it could be regular
23:05:14 <oklopol> i mean the language from which words between spaces are taken
23:06:25 <Lumpio_> tiMMe: So is this from Dropbox or notch
23:08:05 -!- olsner has joined.
23:08:20 <tiMMe> dropbox or notch ? what do you mean
23:08:55 <tiMMe> anyway, someone cracked it for me ;D on a norwegian forum
23:09:10 <Lumpio_> ook, what was this from anyways
23:11:45 <itidus21> im guessing that Q and T are like brainfuck's + and - in some way
23:12:03 <tiMMe> I assumed that Q was + since it was the most of it. And since there were an equal amount of R and U they had to be [ and ], R came first so it had to be [. I saw on a example program that they started with > So I assumed that was P. I guessed the rest, only 7 tsigns total, so few options.
23:14:01 <ais523> oklopol: are you making a Haskell joke?
23:14:18 <Lumpio_> ...somehow it made me think of brainfuck too
23:14:22 <ais523> I'm not sure if we have a defined punishment for Haskell jokes
23:14:24 <Lumpio_> But I didn't bother to actually run it.
23:14:28 <ais523> but an undefined punishment is arguably worse
23:14:28 <oklopol> i just don't like puzzles where you have to know something to crack it
23:14:37 <Lumpio_> Looks like rather crude brainfuck though
23:14:45 <Lumpio_> Probably a full program for each letter of output
23:15:12 <zzo38> Lumpio_: It is what I thought, too
23:15:19 <zzo38> But perhaps not quite
23:15:41 <itidus21> i should not have given such red herrings
23:16:20 <oklopol> yeah okay so letters are really that short to produce based on the constants page on esolang
23:16:24 <zzo38> Or maybe each code word is a program or something else but standalone, and put together. Either by letter, or by numbers...
23:21:59 -!- tiMMe has quit (Quit: Page closed).
23:22:59 <Lumpio_> http://pastebin.com/bD0E1vmr
23:23:14 <kmc> the punishment for Haskell jokes shall be unspecified behavior
23:24:26 <kmc> no it's a C joke
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23:32:25 <itidus21> Her finner du cachen: N 59 23.148 E 010 25.557
23:32:37 <oklopol> ^bf >+++[<+++[<++++++++>-]>-]<<.
23:33:15 <oklopol> okay that's not from the constants page
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23:33:31 <itidus21> yes it wasn't codewords at all
23:33:49 <itidus21> the H gets everything prepared >.<
23:34:34 <oklopol> why have i still not made a programming language puzzle :(
23:34:59 <oklopol> i had a language half-made for it, but i never bothered to finish and publish it and it's gone now
23:35:12 <itidus21> its a simple text replace. timme was right about R and U
23:35:40 <oklopol> based on the H he was right about everything
23:36:22 <itidus21> ^ Her finner du cachen: N 59 23.148 E 010 25.557 :D
23:36:49 <oklopol> you said that already, what's your point
23:37:14 <kmc> achtung du cachen
23:37:41 <kmc> die nyankatze!
23:37:44 <kmc> http://cdn.themis-media.com/media/global/images/library/deriv/73/73315.jpg
23:40:37 <shachaf> "god is dead" -- nyankatze
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00:08:44 <ais523> network outage between router and the hop beyond that, rare to get one of those
00:09:07 <ais523> I noticed the network was back up when adverts started showing again in my feed reader :)
00:09:50 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
00:10:23 <ion> You subscribe to ad feeds? :-)
00:10:38 <elliott> how else would ais523 find all the newest adverts?
00:11:29 <oklopol> hi elliott, what's your state today, and do you feel that your state graph is strongly connected
00:13:07 <oklopol> mine is a tree and i'm way down it :(
00:13:38 <ais523> mine's a line, I'm never in the same state twice
00:14:19 <elliott> (famous rap-metal guitarist)
00:15:10 <oklopol> jesus did _not_ like rap-metal.
00:15:35 <elliott> aristotle was actually jesus' brother
00:15:46 <elliott> there was a time travel accident.
00:16:47 <oklopol> so mary did not have an intact hymen before jesus?
00:17:08 <elliott> I didn't say Aristotle was born first.
00:17:09 <oklopol> i assume he was jesus' big brother if he was born 3000 bc
00:17:10 <ais523> There were no results matching the query .Create the page "Linux desktop zeitgeist" on this wiki!
00:17:14 <elliott> oklopol: like I said, time travel accident
00:17:17 <ais523> wrong search engine, I guess…
00:17:25 <elliott> ais523: thanks for the esolang name
00:17:31 <ais523> also, that "remove newlines" button is really oddly bugged
00:17:34 <ais523> elliott: that's what I thought :)
00:18:17 <oklopol> i tend to censor the most important line, life is way too interesting otherwise.
00:20:50 <ais523> wow is Zeitgeist really pretentious
00:21:05 <ais523> I didn't even realise that an activity logging daemon /could/ be pretentious…
00:22:23 <Gregor> I think that the name "Zeitgeist" implies pretension.
00:23:19 <elliott> "The Element of Intelligence"
00:24:31 <kmc> fulltext search that celebrates craftsmanship
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00:27:14 <elliott> I think the example engravings on Apple products may be the most ridiculously pretentious and awful things ever. http://images.apple.com/v20120515091949/startpage/images/store-fdayipadengraving.png
00:33:05 <Gregor> That's not so much pretentious, as just plain horrible.
00:35:59 <elliott> http://cdn.macworld.co.uk/cmsdata/news/3245946/iPad_engraving.jpg
00:36:23 <elliott> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_AeaeRDQ8GKo/TB6623RDnXI/AAAAAAAAAVk/TTHtzj4QgpA/s1600/touch_fathersday_engrave.jpg
00:36:50 <elliott> Actually all Apple marketing material seems to take place in an alternate universe where everyone is rich and insufferable.
00:37:13 <oklopol> who buys their parents stuff
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00:39:34 <oklopol> well perhaps something cheap and mainly symbolic like a... fucking iphone
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00:39:38 <elliott> http://dynamicaspects.org/blog/2012/05/15/back-to-the-future/
00:45:10 <zzo38> What is the local telephone number in my area for reporting scams on telephone?
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00:46:06 <shachaf> zzo38: Are they telephone scams?
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00:48:12 <zzo38> I found it in the telephone book
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00:50:19 <zzo38> I have now recorded the session I have played of Dungeons&Dragons game yesterday. It is of short duration so there isn't much to write.
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01:02:17 <zzo38> One online quiz system I wanted to review is one which I seem to remember was available on X-BIT, but X-BIT is gone now, and I don't know if there are other servers which it can be tried.
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02:00:48 <zzo38> X-BIT is some BBS I was on during year 2000, it is very good they had many interesting messages and good games I like including Word Nerd, Word Warp, and Wheel of Fortune
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02:05:57 <elliott> zzo38: It seems to still exist to me.
02:06:08 <elliott> http://x-bit.org/; the online client at http://x-bit.org/ftelnet/ connects just fine.
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02:11:12 <zzo38> Well, they said it would stop. Anyways X-BIT is not HTTP-based service
02:11:48 <zzo38> O, this X-BIT works now, same as before. I tried connect using HyperTerminal it works OK
02:12:06 <zzo38> But my account got deleted
02:14:01 <Sgeo> elliott, is it worth using the new version of DF?
02:14:17 <elliott> What do you mean by new version? DF2011 -> DF2012?
02:14:59 <Sgeo> I mean v0.34.08 which came out very recently
02:15:11 <elliott> Sure, why not? Isn't it save-file compatible?
02:15:24 * Sgeo is sort of waiting for Lazy Newb Pack >.>
02:15:59 <elliott> Have you seen how unreadable the tilesets are?
02:16:32 <elliott> Dwarf Therapist and sometimes DFHack (usually to work around bugs) are sometimes useful, but the rest is junk, and Dwarf Therapist is available separately.
02:16:56 <Sgeo> Has DT even been updated yet? >.>
02:17:03 <Sgeo> Or maybe I'm lazy and just want an easy installer
02:17:08 <elliott> It was updated two days ago.
02:17:27 <elliott> http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/df_34_08_win.zip http://dwarftherapist.googlecode.com/files/DwarfTherapist-0.6.12.zip
02:18:17 <elliott> And you don't need Dwarf Therapist for the beginning of a fortress, if you're really that lazy.
02:19:26 <Sgeo> Doesn't Lazy Newb Pack have keybindings to make laptop play easier?
02:19:44 <elliott> Dunno, but I play on a laptop.
02:20:03 <elliott> Well, the original keyboard I played it on technically has a number pad. But I never use it, and the rest of the keys are laid out like a laptop.
02:20:12 <elliott> I don't really see what you'd have problems with using a laptop keyboard.
02:20:32 <elliott> It's not like there's a penalty for using the arrow keys to move diagonally like there is in roguelikes :P
02:51:25 <HackEgo> 641) <fizzie> It's a bit like a regular monowheel, except when you brake too hard, instead of you going around and around inside the wheel, the (1100lb) wheel rolls over you.
02:51:28 <HackEgo> 788) <Taneb> I swear my dreams are becoming increasingly rave + computer science oriented
02:51:36 <HackEgo> 628) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love
02:51:37 <HackEgo> 732) <Phantom_Hoover> Here in Scotland we have a rigorous and well-tested theory of brothels.
02:59:39 <HackEgo> 826) <Taneb> it's funny what is gay right c***
03:02:13 <zzo38> I paid for X-BIT service and they said it lasts for the entire lifetime, but since my account got deleted I do not have that.
03:03:51 <ais523> 628 is probably next-worst but it's much better
03:03:54 <HackEgo> *poof* <Taneb> it's funny what is gay right c***
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03:10:38 <HackEgo> AerosolProphet: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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03:15:23 <JeremyS> Hey, is anyone interested in giving feedback on a cross-platform brainfuck Debugger/Editor I've just written?
03:18:57 <HackEgo> JeremyS: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:21:44 <JeremyS> https://code.google.com/p/wxbfide
03:22:23 <JeremyS> I'll package up a tarball if you don't like svn.
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03:29:00 <JeremyS> Okay, it also uses Codeblocks to build I realize. Do you want a Makefile instead?
03:30:45 <JeremyS> Okay, I'll upload it to svn
03:34:38 <JeremyS> AerosolProphet: Okay, done
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03:47:40 <zzo38> I have recreated X-BIT account. Now I can access FidoNet, Word Warp game, etc. Currently I am using HyperTerminal to connect since it is what I used before, but I may configure PuTTY to work with it, or something else related too
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05:37:25 <Sgeo> Should I just go ahead and watch captnduck
05:37:59 <elliott> if you want play a succession fortress so you can skip the earlygame
05:38:04 <elliott> taneb is good at getting fortresses started
05:38:23 <Sgeo> But I'd get the fortress killed
05:38:50 <elliott> fortresses tend to stay alive unless goblins
05:38:58 <elliott> or unless you build something and mess it up
05:39:14 <Sgeo> What if DF bores me?
05:39:22 <Sgeo> What if I like reading DF stories more than playing DF
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06:21:50 <zzo38> Perhaps I can make up a program to printout the quiz files in Internet Quiz Engine, by converting to TeX and then DVI and then whatever format the printer accepts (such as PCL). But it would try to guess one of many possible "modes" it is in to determine the best layout for printing, and you can override that and other options if you want to do so.
06:24:14 <zzo38> I can also try to ask them to put Internet Quiz Engine on X-BIT as well.
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06:50:48 <ais523> hmm, Jeff Atwood seems to have trolled a sizeable proportion of programmers on the internet recently
06:50:55 <ais523> not sure if he meant to or if he was being serious
06:52:22 <elliott> and now you're helping him troll #esoteric? :P
06:57:24 <cheater_> @tell kmc googled for Quotron, came up with this: http://pcridesagain.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/theguts.jpg
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07:48:05 <Patashu> sgeo: you could always pick a succession fortress in progress, and then... just play it locally and not post about it
07:51:00 <ais523> <gnawer> Isn't that a tautology? <BernzSed> Most tautologies are.
07:54:55 <ais523> worth quoting in #esoteric /as well as/ upvoting
07:55:28 <HackEgo> 242) <Phantom_Hoover> [...] reyouthismootherate [...]
07:55:39 <HackEgo> 682) <Ngevd> It's like single player Hackiki in a way(?) <tswett> Ngevd: yes, but with multiple players.
07:55:41 <HackEgo> 745) <oklopol> i think i'll just take the usual route and go do post doc research somewhere far away and never come back and become a drug lord and kill myself
07:55:41 <HackEgo> 531) <ais523> (Enigma is two games; one is solving Enigma puzzles, the other is working out how to represent things as Enigma puzzles, preferably with the minimal amount of lua and player-hidden information possible)
07:55:41 <HackEgo> 288) <Warrigal> My penis is definitely way smaller than that.
07:56:18 <ais523> hmm, 531 is mostly simply factual rather than amusing, which makes it weird why it got quoted
07:56:23 <ais523> unless there's some hidden meaning there I missed
07:56:37 <ais523> so I'd delete that one out of the five
07:57:12 <elliott> 531 is better, even if it's bad
07:57:18 <HackEgo> *poof* <Warrigal> My penis is definitely way smaller than that.
07:57:52 <HackEgo> 487) <Taneb> aibohphobia <Taneb> The fear of palindromes
07:57:55 <HackEgo> 765) <ais523> oh right: Frooxius, you wouldn't happen to live in Hexham, would you? <Frooxius> No, sorry. <ais523> phew <Ngevd> How about Finland? <Frooxius> Why would I live there? <fizzie> That's a *very* good question. <fizzie> Why would anyone?
07:58:06 <HackEgo> 281) <zzo38> Why do you want to have sex in everything? I don't want.
07:58:07 <HackEgo> 449) <fizzie> The zipWith Camel, a famous World War 1 era airplane.
07:58:09 <HackEgo> 767) <Phantom_Hoover> There.... is a box of Gardasil next to the butter in my fridge. <Phantom_Hoover> At least my sandwich will be immune to cervical cancer *and* genital warts, I suppose.
07:58:24 <ais523> 487 is unoriginal; 449 is a bit meh
07:58:32 <ais523> 767 is pretty hilarious
07:59:07 <elliott> it's only funny because of the grammar
07:59:17 <ais523> it's funny because of the sentiment expressed too
07:59:18 <elliott> if it really is unoriginal
07:59:25 <HackEgo> *poof* <Taneb> aibohphobia <Taneb> The fear of palindromes
07:59:33 <ais523> it might have been reinvented
07:59:39 <oklopol> ais523 is a bit of an ailihphiliac, so he knows these things
08:00:03 <oklopol> perhaps ailihphile is how it would actually work
08:00:06 <ais523> Wiktionary says it dates from at least 1983
08:00:19 <cheater_> why does posterous suck so much
08:00:43 <oklopol> my aigahphagia is getting so bad i cannot eat foods without an axis of symmetry anymore
08:00:45 <ais523> cheater_: does it have anything to do with the topic of the channel, or the current conversation?
08:01:13 <ais523> hmm, a state of having no palindromes is being sselless
08:01:36 <elliott> something having lots of palindromicity means it's lufful
08:01:40 <cheater_> ais523: irc is not a colliding medium, a channel can have multiple conversations in parallel
08:01:53 <ais523> cheater_: a conversation requires multiple people who actually want to take part in it
08:02:00 <ais523> (thus the "topic of the channel" clause)
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08:02:39 <elliott> doesn't look like an actually real hostname
08:03:05 -!- qfr has quit (*.net *.split).
08:03:08 <cheater_> your question was phrased as an or clause, which implied you were only asking about the one or the other. so, yes, the question is related to the conversation it is part of.
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08:03:22 <fizzie> $ curl 'http://death.to.religion.info.gf/'
08:03:23 <fizzie> <head><title>403 Forbidden</title></head>
08:03:39 <fizzie> It's IPv6-only, though.
08:03:39 <ais523> cheater_: that's not what "current conversation" means, and you're misinterpreting me deliberately
08:04:04 <cheater_> no, i am just saying there is no "current conversation" in a medium that can hold multiple conversations
08:04:16 <ais523> there is if it's only holding one conversation at the time
08:04:25 <ais523> and often there's a current main conversation as well as side conversations
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08:04:57 <cheater_> i think what you want is a mailing list where conversations are clearly demarcated by reply chains
08:05:10 <cheater_> that can work better to isolate conversations imo
08:05:46 <oklopol> holy fuck the time just changed on its own when i wasn't looking o_O
08:06:28 <ais523> cheater_: no, that's what /you/ want, apparently, and you're trying to derail the channel into something useless /again/
08:07:41 <oklopol> cheater_: "no i'm not" is not even a palindrome, shame on you!
08:07:52 <cheater_> blogging is an important part of being able to publish pertinent knowledge, such as for example programming language information. i was hoping someone could suggest a better platform for it. how is that useless
08:08:12 <cheater_> i think you just want to aggravate this because you don't like me
08:08:19 <cheater_> so i'll just stop talking about this
08:08:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
08:08:37 <ais523> it's not just me, you've driven quite a few people from the channel already
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08:08:51 <ais523> is true, I've been taking surveys
08:09:01 <cheater_> um, they leave because they don't like me
08:09:06 <cheater_> in fact, look at kmc's reaction
08:09:17 <cheater_> he specifically said that if i come in and talk about just anything, people flip out
08:09:22 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: +b *!*@g230223105.adsl.alicedsl.de.
08:09:34 -!- ais523 has kicked cheater_ repeatedly deliberately missing the point.
08:10:18 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
08:10:27 <oklopol> "cheater_ um, they leave because they don't like me" who thinks this is reason enough on a channel this size? i can't quite figure out my opinion.
08:11:47 <oklopol> well anyway gotta go to work to work
08:17:06 <elliott> hmm, I should get around to installing <cite> and <math> on Esolang
08:20:25 <ais523> going back to the conversation we were at before this distraction: I guess something that's full of palindromes is luful
08:22:00 <elliott> 09:01 <elliott> something having lots of palindromicity means it's lufful
08:22:28 <ais523> it was 20 minutes ago and above the fold, so you can't expect me to remember
08:22:30 <elliott> someone who studies primes is a tsigolologist
08:22:57 <elliott> heh, that sounds like "psycholologist"
08:23:50 <ais523> someone who manufactures palindromes is a htimsmith?
08:24:11 <ais523> the opposite of a palindrome is unnu
08:25:05 <ais523> and something that used to be a palindrome but isn't any more is ex-xe
08:25:18 <elliott> something that isn't a palindrome is a nonon
08:25:45 <elliott> someone prejudiced against palindromes is a tsist
08:25:48 <ais523> hmm, the adjective is quite different from the noun in this case :)
08:26:35 <elliott> something that's like a palindrome but not quite is y
08:26:56 <ais523> that one made me laugh
08:28:52 <ais523> the IRC channel for discussing palindromes is ## (also the Twitter hashtag)
08:30:13 <elliott> 09:30 Topic: Welcome to the two hash channel, also known as ##, or nameless "about" channel.
08:31:04 <ais523> I assumed it'd be some sort of error
08:31:14 <ais523> now I'm wondering what it's about
08:31:18 <elliott> I think all of them up to like 16 hashes exist
08:31:28 <elliott> ais523: it's either about nothing, or the official channel for something called #
08:31:51 <ais523> would explain why it's quiet
08:31:54 <ais523> arguably also why Sgeo is there
08:32:09 <ais523> (and given that he isn't obviously online right now, perhaps he idles there rather than joining just because it was mentioned)
08:32:28 <elliott> i have this vision of sgeo's client's channel list just filled with
08:33:17 <Sgeo> Or, I could be lurking in here.
08:33:43 <ais523> something which might or might not be a palindrome is a maybebyam
08:33:44 <Sgeo> I joined just because it was mentioned.
08:33:51 <ais523> elliott: indeed, but that's even more unlikely
08:33:59 <elliott> ais523: since when can you prepend "maybe" to words?
08:34:03 <elliott> "This sure is maybegreat!"
08:34:21 <ais523> elliott: since Haskell
08:34:32 <elliott> something that fulfils some, but not all of the laws of palindromes, is quasisauq
08:34:36 <ais523> but people know what it means anyway, therefore it's a rule
08:36:47 <ais523> there is no such thing as a free alligator helmet
08:37:06 <elliott> that's... not a palindrome
08:37:19 <ais523> there's a lot of other things it isn't too
08:37:48 <ais523> a somewhat mutated meme?
08:37:56 <ais523> (a palindrome that goes viral is a mememem, btw)
08:38:21 <elliott> is the meme something other than "... free lunch"?
08:39:01 <ais523> well, "there is no such thing as a free lunch" is the full meme
08:39:19 <ais523> or, I think it's more correct as "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch"
08:39:37 <ais523> but "ain't" means "have not" so that sentence isn't correct
08:40:16 <elliott> double negation is weird in natural language
08:40:43 <ais523> it should be "isn't" not "ain't" to be correct
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08:41:05 <elliott> "ain't" is a perfectly valid way to say "isn't"
08:41:20 <elliott> "there ain't" ~ "there isn't"
08:41:46 <pikhq_> "Ain't" ain't incorrect, it just ain't formal.
08:41:57 <ais523> perhaps it's just a generalised negated contraction
08:42:07 <elliott> ais523: it stands for multiple things
08:42:16 <elliott> is not, am not, haven't, etc.
08:42:19 <ais523> now we need a sentence where "hasn't" and "isn't" both fit
08:42:30 <ais523> English does need an amn't, perhaps ain't is meant to fill that gap
08:44:19 * oerjan thinks he once learnt that ain't is everything mushed together
08:44:31 <pikhq_> oerjan: Good approximation.
08:44:52 <fizzie> ais523: He hasn't a clue; he isn't a clue. (The latter in the context of a private detective story or something.)
08:45:29 <pikhq_> And "he ain't a clue" actually works for both meanings.
08:45:41 <pikhq_> Though without context I'm defaulting to the "isn't" interpretation...
08:46:10 <oerjan> hm i'm not sure you can use ain't for a non-auxiliary "have"?
08:48:34 <elliott> oerjan: well, ain't would always mean "haven't" in context
08:49:05 <oerjan> it is not modifying any other verb.
08:49:24 <elliott> i'm not sure what you mean, hten
08:49:28 <pikhq_> It'd sound *weird* from some speakers, but from others it'd work just fine.
08:49:53 <pikhq_> Though, just the thought of "ain't" coming from an RP speaker gives me the giggles.
08:50:11 <itidus21> i find "once upon a time" to be a really bizzare idiom
08:51:29 <oerjan> itidus21: lots of languages have formulaic fairy tale introduction idioms
08:51:48 <itidus21> do they make equally little sense gramattically?
08:52:00 <oerjan> norwegian's "det var en gang" sadly makes sense in context
08:52:18 <itidus21> it's the "upon a time" which really throws me
08:52:33 <oerjan> (it just means "there was once")
08:52:44 <pikhq_> "Mukashi mukashi" (Japanese) is kinda weird.
08:52:59 <pikhq_> "Mukashi" is a word meaning approx. "a long time ago".
08:53:09 <elliott> alternative fairytale openings: "OK, so" "It's kind of a long story, but" "Listen up, bitches:"
08:53:13 <pikhq_> Why repeating it turns it into a fairly tale introduction, I dunno.
08:53:29 <pikhq_> "A long time ago, a long time ago:"
08:53:30 <oerjan> (although it is still idiomatic: it wouldn't fit in any other context)
08:53:30 <elliott> oerjan: "There was once" is done in English too, I think
08:53:40 <elliott> pikhq_: in a galaxy far away, in a galaxy far away
08:54:00 <pikhq_> Actually, to give you a better sense of how weird that is:
08:54:44 <pikhq_> I guess I'll just accept that it goes in with all the other word-repetitions-that-make-for-different-meanings, then.
08:55:05 * oerjan vaguely recalls there was one which meant something like "there was and there wasn't"
08:55:15 <pikhq_> Like "toki" (time) -> "tokidoki" (sometimes)
08:55:27 <pikhq_> Or "iro" (color) -> "iroiro" (various)
08:56:15 * oerjan suddenly recalls "Det hendte i de dager da Vårherre vandret omkring på jorden" which is used for _religious_ fables
08:56:25 <elliott> what does that translate as?
08:56:46 <oerjan> It happened in those days when our Lord walked about on the earth
08:57:01 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_upon_a_time -- surprisingly helpful
08:57:39 <elliott> "Whistle, whistle, the story is done"
08:57:50 <elliott> "'...and three days they ate, drunk and had fun."
08:57:58 <elliott> "and with a dog and a cat, the tale is finished" what
08:58:15 <elliott> '...and they lived happily until they died.' '...and if they have not died yet, they still live there today.'
08:58:37 <elliott> 'And then came a pig with a long snout, and the story is out (over).' WHAT
08:58:39 <fizzie> That's the length of it.
08:58:52 <elliott> haha, I just reached that one
08:59:06 <elliott> "Disaster there, feast here... bran there, flour here..." Wow, what kind of ending is that?
08:59:23 <elliott> "There was, and there was not, there was..." Or a beginning. Georgian, explain yourself???
08:59:39 <pikhq_> 'And if they're not dead, they still live.'
08:59:47 <elliott> 'So blissful' -- good ending.
08:59:52 <elliott> "And I was there, drank some mead ale, dribbled through my beard, had not in my mouth"
09:00:29 <fizzie> Snip, snap, snout: then this adventure is finished. What's it with snouts?
09:00:36 <pikhq_> elliott: The Japanese ending I've never seen, but it at least doesn't seem like *obvious* bullshit.
09:01:35 <pikhq_> Though the translation seems off.
09:03:27 <pikhq_> "めでたし" is a conjugation of 愛でる, defined as "美しさを味わい感動する。"... Something like "lovely", "wonderful", then.
09:03:49 <pikhq_> No idea where "blissful" came from.
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09:05:04 <ais523> the Greek ending is pretty amusing
09:05:23 <elliott> @tell oerjan I found your terminal.
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10:08:10 <Taneb> I never did write the specs for Dilston, did I?
10:08:20 <Taneb> I can't get it to be not-turing complete
10:09:39 <elliott> It's hard to make things sub-TC.
10:10:00 <Taneb> I don't want it to be sub-TC, I want it to be maybe TC in a certain way
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10:10:22 <Taneb> That is, iff a non-trivial loop occurs in some collatz (hailstone) sequence
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10:28:58 <elliott> "The relational database model is one of the very few things in the entire history of the computer industry where we actually got things right, up front, instead of just endlessly duct taping hack over hack."
10:29:11 <elliott> Hello, I'm a reddit commenter! I have literally never seen SQL.
10:30:33 <itidus21> . o O ( google:SQL::windows:unix )
10:32:38 <itidus21> No results found for "google:SQL::windows:unix".
10:36:15 <itidus21> i wish i didn't post the last 2 lines.
10:36:57 <itidus21> "Originally based upon relational algebra and tuple relational calculus," wow.. even SQL is based on algebra and calculus
10:41:51 <itidus21> "one of the very few things in the entire history of the computer industry" so many compliments are based on fallacies.
10:42:15 <itidus21> of course i would have believed him if i didn't read "I have literally never seen SQL."
10:47:01 <Sgeo> Isn't SQL just a thin layer over the underlying concept though?
10:48:56 <itidus21> drinking game would be take a drink every time the word relation, calculus or algebra appears in this wikipedia reference of the above quote: http://www.dbdebunk.com/page/page/1897740.htm
10:50:36 <Kray> related http://technology.amis.nl/2009/10/13/oracle-rdbms-11gr2-solving-a-sudoku-using-recursive-subquery-factoring/
10:56:07 <itidus21> "<addintel> how ever this dosent resolve all the sudoku types ..maybe just the easy ones." this guys dreams are crushed
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11:25:04 <Taneb> I'm merely almost gone, it seems
11:29:35 <Patashu> one of my ghosts finally killed someone
11:29:55 <elliott> this isn't ##crawl, that won't work :P
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11:35:21 <nooga> another hermetic game?
11:37:18 <Taneb> !lg * killer=~patashu -tv
11:37:28 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetics
11:37:57 <Taneb> The word "esoteric" is used in that article!
11:40:30 <elliott> I know what "hermetic" means.
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11:41:15 <elliott> I was inquiring as to its specific relevance in your question.
11:43:42 <nooga> i was ust curious, because every time i come back here after a while, i see some brand new stuff you're all playing with
11:44:06 <elliott> If it's a game, it might be the same one as last time, if it was within the past few weeks.
11:44:23 <elliott> Unless you mean Minecraft :P
11:45:49 <nooga> minecraft isn't hermetic at all
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11:48:40 <elliott> and quite fun, although I haven't played it too much yet
11:48:43 <nooga> quite casual but still entertaining
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11:50:03 <elliott> crawl isn't very casual at all, but it's quite entertaining
11:50:03 <Taneb> Remember when ais523 got almost addicted to Dredmor?
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11:54:30 <Patashu> you can play crawl casually
11:54:36 <Patashu> you only need to know tab, o and i
11:55:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott: wait should I tell APT Guy to tell McBride to hurry the fuck up with Epigram 2 or is that no longer relevant?
11:55:07 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
11:55:25 <elliott> Patashu: i isn't strictly necessary
11:55:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's like telling ais523 to hurry up with Feather.
11:57:24 <Taneb> We are all doing computer science at Birmingham university
11:58:27 <Taneb> ais523 is definitely Birmingham
11:58:44 <Taneb> Because it's actually a dyson
11:58:50 <Phantom_Hoover> why have apple decided that because something works on a phone it must work on a desktop
11:59:01 <Taneb> Because windows and ubuntu agree
11:59:07 <Taneb> *microsoft and canonical
11:59:56 <Taneb> I have an answer for everything
12:01:18 <Taneb> That would be a bad idea
12:01:21 <Taneb> Also slightly illegal
12:01:37 <Taneb> Also, you're in Edinburgh, and Edinburgh =/= Glasgow
12:02:16 <HackEgo> 512) <Phantom_Hoover> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. \ 679) <Phantom_Hoover> No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. <Phantom_Hoover> It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum.
12:03:11 <HackEgo> 474) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry \ 496) <Taneb> I combined the wholegrain breakfast and chocolatey breakfast for maximum breakfast efficiency \ 767) <fungot> elliott: to be honest, it doesn't exist in a state of almost perpetual
12:03:28 <HackEgo> 767) <fungot> elliott: to be honest, it doesn't exist in a state of almost perpetual stalemate, and expands to a larger board and more exotic collection of what he refers to as a thermal hull, instead of some kind of clock pun. no, dammit, will this breakfast injure his shrill, bearded, scraggly old men in space. jade's radioactive, omnipotent, space-warping dog named...
12:03:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
12:04:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Thought that would continue as "a state of almost perpetual breakfast".
12:04:25 <Taneb> But alas, it doesn't
12:05:46 <HackEgo> 217) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 248) <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could make modified picture, though, in order to lie more clearly, at least.
12:06:22 <Taneb> Here's an idea: a Fungot style based on the quotes
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12:08:50 <Taneb> I like how more than 8% of this channel is bots
12:09:12 <Taneb> 10% if you count myndzi
12:09:32 <Taneb> 12% if you count elliott
12:09:49 <elliott> There aren't enough quotes to be a decent fungot style, I think.
12:09:51 <fungot> elliott: seems to be absent, just build a lazy stream in the sense of " i am xenu" and tell them that
12:10:07 <Taneb> That's because you keep deleting them
12:10:18 <Taneb> Maybe if we incorporate bash.org
12:10:20 <lambdabot> Berengal says: data Neither a b = Left | Right
12:10:22 <elliott> I keep deleting the crappy ones.
12:10:35 <lambdabot> Quote somebody, a random person, or save a memorable quote
12:13:52 <HackEgo> 274) <zzo38> Lymia: I put big spider in my bed already. So if you have no more left you do not have to worry about it anymore. You can just take a cold shower or hot acid or whatever you want to, instead.
12:13:56 <HackEgo> 579) <Phantom_Hoover> THERE WAS A VISIBLE SUPERNOVA AND NOBODY FUCKING TOLD ME??????????????????????????/ \ 640) <shachaf> Real Tar is GNU tar. <shachaf> You just ignore whichever features don't make you feel superior enough.
12:14:00 <HackEgo> 619) <fungot> sadhu: it's been said that boole is the crowning jewel perched precariously upon the perfect peak of programmer prowess, casting its limitless limpid light over the loathesome lands of those who scuff and wallow in the dreary dust of digital depravity and unbounded wilful ignorance of the testament of our lord jesus christ into your life.
12:14:04 <HackEgo> 9) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence \ 12) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 14) <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest. \ 28) <Deewiant> ehird: There is no h in "honour" \ 30) <ehird> pikhq: A lunar
12:14:38 <elliott> Taneb: Do you have an opinion on the quote identifier issue?
12:17:34 <Taneb> Which quote identifier issue?
12:20:01 <elliott> Taneb: Well, you know how deleting quotes changes the numbers of other ones?
12:20:14 <elliott> That sucks. It would be nice to have a better means by which to identify quotes.
12:20:56 <elliott> Some options are: persistent integers (quote identifiers are never reused, and gaps are allowed; this is what the old quote system did); timestamps; prefixes of cryptographic hashes; and the text of the quotes themselves.
12:21:42 <Taneb> I'd go for a combo of the current system and persistent integers, which on thinking about it wouldn't work at all
12:22:00 <elliott> What combo, out of curiosity?
12:22:13 <Taneb> Each quote gets two numbers
12:22:28 <Taneb> One permanent, one temporary
12:22:47 <Taneb> It wouldn't work, though
12:23:14 <Taneb> They'd interfere with each-other like an unobserved photon and itself
12:23:59 <elliott> `echo (2012-05-16T13:23:44) Abc def quux.
12:24:01 <HackEgo> (2012-05-16T13:23:44) Abc def quux.
12:24:07 <elliott> Hmm, that's a pain to copy here.
12:24:11 <elliott> Taneb: Does that select as one word for you?
12:24:30 <Taneb> It doesn't grab the brackets
12:24:42 <elliott> Right, that's intended behaviour. Not so for me.
12:24:58 <elliott> `echo (ac62d173) How about this?
12:25:01 <HackEgo> (ac62d173) How about this?
12:25:48 <Taneb> Looks like a jumbled mess
12:28:27 <elliott> `echo (20120516T132344) Abc def quux.
12:28:30 <HackEgo> (20120516T132344) Abc def quux.
12:28:35 <elliott> Ugh, that's just so ugly though.
12:28:41 <elliott> The hash is nicer. But even that's suboptimal.
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12:29:11 <elliott> Hi Phantom_Hoover. Do you have an opinion on the quote identifier issue?
12:29:12 <Taneb> elliott, does it break on the hyphendashes, or the colons, or both?
12:29:38 <elliott> (I love you for "hyphendashes".)
12:29:46 <elliott> (But it's "HYPHEN-MINUS".)
12:30:04 <Taneb> (Dammit, I knew it was two of them, but which one)
12:32:05 <Taneb> main = do {x <- veniVidiVici; if x then return () else putStrLn "alea iacta est" >> main}
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12:35:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But seriously. :'(
12:36:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously you should be allowed to have quotes in identifiers, otherwise Haskellers couldn't pretend to be mathematicians
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12:39:24 <elliott> 12:36:19: <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously you should be allowed to have quotes in identifiers, otherwise Haskellers couldn't pretend to be mathematicians
12:39:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: one day im punch you
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12:39:47 <elliott> Taneb: let's punch Phantom_Hoover
12:40:25 <elliott> ill punch from inside the bag
12:43:18 <Taneb> We could just take him to Glasgow
12:43:24 <Taneb> And let the natives deal with him
12:43:45 <Taneb> (People from Hexham are immune to Glasgow. We even have a train that goes there)
12:44:23 <Taneb> Says the ghostly vacuum cleaner
12:45:02 <Phantom_Hoover> wait yes you ALSO cannot punch me unless your fists are DRENCHED IN HOLY WATER
12:45:08 <elliott> Taneb: I like the way you think. Yr promoted.
12:45:47 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'm technically possibly catholic. I have access to Holy Water.
12:47:49 <Phantom_Hoover> My cousin was astonished that I haven't been confirmed.
12:48:05 <elliott> You're just so Catholic, Phantom_Hoover!
12:48:52 <Taneb> It appears Misfile is doing a Christmas arc
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14:02:25 <Taneb> Is Hexham a pilgrimage site?
14:03:02 <Taneb> Lindesfarne's closer
14:03:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I *am* Ireland on toast.
14:03:31 <elliott> *You're* the angel fraud, right? House.
14:03:50 <itidus21> it pains me to want to use the words monks of esolang when i am not really
14:03:58 <elliott> Woo the *excellent minister* for Olympics!
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14:04:34 <elliott> Supremum is like and *what's* effervescent?
14:05:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are *you* OK?
14:05:49 <elliott> Taneb: It's okay to *burn* without fumes.
14:07:04 <elliott> Well, shucks, *gargoyles*. I'm business endeavour.
14:09:02 <itidus21> whenever i try to use some "filter" on my next chat post, i find a reluctance form to post anything meaningful or substantial
14:09:38 <itidus21> filter in this sense being something like put * around a random word
14:10:12 <HackEgo> 162) <fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question". <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..."
14:10:15 <HackEgo> 838) <kmc> i saw Godspeed You! Black Emperor live <kmc> it is hard to tell when the soundcheck ends and the set begins
14:10:17 <HackEgo> 768) <itidus21> the possession of diamonds by the bourgeois is more about establishing their bourgeoisness more than wanting a malleable metal <itidus21> oops i forgot i said diamonds instead of gold
14:10:20 <HackEgo> 505) <Phantom_Hoover> You realise the micromanagement it took to make quintopia encrust my silver throne with emeralds rather than a jug?
14:10:25 <HackEgo> 641) <oerjan> <Patashu> But wait what if I'm using a quantum computer <-- there is "quantum entropy". it's the same except no one understands it.
14:11:17 <elliott> itidus21: Phantom_Hoover: Duke it out.
14:13:36 <kmc> MATHS stands for Mathematical Anti-Telharsic Harfatum Septomin
14:13:36 <lambdabot> kmc: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:13:57 <itidus21> Malvern Armadale Toorak Hawthorn South Yarra
14:16:47 <itidus21> http://ptv.vic.gov.au/assets/Maps/Routes/GIFs/6_Frankston.gif -- hawksburn? whatever
14:18:02 <kmc> that's incredible
14:18:06 <kmc> i must tell my train/math nerd friends
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14:20:18 <kmc> the melbourne metropolitan railway map is really dumb
14:20:33 <kmc> all the lines are the same color
14:21:44 <itidus21> the 2 colors indicates the ticket zones. basically there is the zone 1 in the middle and zone 2 on the outside.. there used to be 3 until a few years ago
14:23:33 <kmc> but it's much more common (and useful) to indicate zones with area shading, and use the line colors themselves to indicate service patterns
14:25:25 <itidus21> as for tickets here, they're trying to make this new fast system but it's a bit of a blunder
14:25:25 <kmc> as on the London or Paris maps for example
14:28:36 <itidus21> life gets kinda boring when you have no money
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14:32:08 <Taneb> I've got relatives in Melbourne
14:32:37 <elliott> I *am* Melbourne (hold the toast).
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14:33:16 <itidus21> talking about tickets reminds me of the places i've been, and times i've gone shopping etc
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14:42:31 <Taneb> I think English is an awful global language, but for now we're stuck with it
14:43:42 <elliott> I was going to reply in Lojban but then I forgot all the very small amount of Lojban I knew.
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14:44:51 <Taneb> Lojban would be a brilliant global language except no-one speaks it
14:45:26 <elliott> it wouldn't really be that brilliant
14:45:31 <elliott> but it might be amusing at least
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15:14:01 <Taneb> Hey guys, I have a Hackage account now!
15:16:07 <Taneb> When I feel evil I grow a kinda sucky moustache
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15:26:45 <Taneb> }. Does that make you feel better?
15:27:05 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
15:27:06 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
15:27:06 <myndzi> /< |\ /´\ | /< /< /| | |\ /´\ /'\
15:38:24 <fungot> Taneb: that's pretty useless in a language without a purpose, no?) ' eq?' instead. beats germany.
15:38:42 <fungot> Selected style: iwcs (Irregular Webcomic scripts)
15:38:52 <Taneb> fungot, what do you think of my hackage account?
15:38:53 <fungot> Taneb: a strange fantasy land on the threshold of the door. expressed the opinon that if anyone knows the place, but it has given me a splitting the profits for the nigerian government!
16:05:30 <Gregor> That's actually a surprisingly cogent response.
16:34:16 <fizzie> fungot: Why are you being cogent. Stop being cogent. You're not built to be cogent.
16:34:16 <fungot> fizzie: i know! i'll assemble a prize, finance minister, the new tech to build a time like!
16:35:48 <elliott> fizzie: Uh oh. He's... ASSEMBLING A PRIZE.
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16:59:27 <fungot> kallisti: no, the boy, do i? jolly good. nothing has a bite that big to you, our helpful. ' is phone is still workin' class, guv.
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17:01:29 <fungot> itidus21: there's the internet, adam. it could just apply a jolly good. nothing has a bite that big, long turn, we be evadin' pursuit, you're sorely mistaken, my good man. all hobbits are hard a starboard, helmsman!
17:01:52 <itidus21> wonders if adam apply is a pun
17:02:03 <Taneb> fizzie, I think fungot is jolly good
17:02:03 <fungot> Taneb: you... you're jane, my experience here's ' elped me decide on a career too!
17:02:27 <Taneb> itidus21, probably a coincidence, seeing as IWC has a character called Adam
17:02:55 <itidus21> indeed. fungot doesn't understand a word i'm saying.
17:02:55 <fungot> itidus21: do i look like ben, you dolt conjure a fireball the likes of you, going, monty. a shipment of arms! solidarity will prevail over any opposition! we shall i?
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17:11:43 <fungot> itidus21: our own! how close a friend, is a pint," replied merry, " never heard the news from the east of paris. made of plaster
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17:17:47 <fungot> elliott: you are not evil, terrible things are happening. this is the lost plateau marked on the map, and ye be havin' the muscles to account for die increased mass, it is.
17:19:10 <itidus21> "this is the lost plateau marked on the map"
17:19:28 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs* jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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17:29:35 <Taneb> I like how it goes from pirate to german in less than 7 words
17:34:14 <quintopia> elliott: i agree. a pint is quite a friend
17:34:29 <fungot> Selected style: iwcs (Irregular Webcomic scripts)
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18:33:37 <nortti> http://www.retroprogramming.com/2009/07/perverse-code-deviant-forth.html
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18:56:38 <lambdabot> elliott said 9h 51m 9s ago: I found your terminal.
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23:01:00 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: the very air, with minnesota jones, and i'll make the best, a minor thing, but laughed it off one of the marx of elven philosophy.
23:17:27 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: a bit of a noble way of the most secure and well-guarded buildings in the world, we should at the way you stopped the orcs are nearby forest logging in a sensitive wilderness. they're a regular letters back in the 1950s
23:17:28 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i should probably forget alchemy. two or three, my dear, not gilderoy lockhart again, too literal with the same of your cat
23:17:29 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: no, a real, that's the beauty! bends over to touch the frog, the rake, and the enormous craniums? we never seem to be having a bit of a noble way of the most secure and well-guarded buildings in the world, we should at my word install the patch of light a star. they're too uncouth point, followed by the gerund if necessary, bein' too hot, but would also knock back a beer, get big mad, all is not lost. several we
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23:22:10 <nortti> J is pretty interesting language
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00:43:24 <ais523> bleh, just accidentally deleted my entire email inbox
00:43:49 <ais523> I have a backup from February, and there hasn't been much important since; but it was my work email not my home email, which has been backed up more recently by the work people, I hope
00:44:28 <ais523> meanwhile, something is creating files in my home directory that look like PEM certificates (but are the wrong length), and have names that look suspiciously like uninitialized memory
00:46:15 <ais523> I doubt there's anyone around to restore it from backup at quarter to 2, though
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01:44:16 <ais523> hmm, are there any asm interps?
01:44:32 <ais523> as in, not machine code interps, but things that interp the actual asm itself without assembling it?
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02:00:13 <madbr> ais523: what's the point
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02:00:57 <ais523> something I saw in the Oracle v Google court case
02:01:07 <ais523> apparently Oracle have a patent so badly worded it probably doesn't apply to anything
02:01:14 <ais523> I was wondering if it might apply to an asm interp
02:01:22 <ais523> I can't think of much point for having one of those either, though…
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02:05:06 <coppro> ais523: create an esolang based on patent claims
02:05:17 <ais523> most illegal esolang ever
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02:09:00 <madbr> what current patent is the most ridiculous one anyways?
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03:00:54 <madbr> needs to have one particularly egregious patent owned by a notably sue happy company
03:06:15 <ais523> the problem is that patents keep expiring
03:10:15 <madbr> the lzw one was a winner
03:10:33 <madbr> what about the ones on mp3%?
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03:43:36 <quintopia> madbr: i choose the patent on a mouse. how can you patent a freakin' mouse?
04:00:28 <madbr> dunno how you'll make a programming language with that? :D
04:00:51 <coppro> quintopia: it took a lot of work to get it that tiny
04:01:08 <coppro> quintopia: I mean, look at the little eyes
04:01:15 <coppro> that's serious creativity there
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04:02:20 <quintopia> coppro: you mean serious stupidity? a modern engineer totally could have put the same functionality in half the space with lower energy consumption and heat output. and it would probably last longer too.
04:02:44 <coppro> how would it eat all the cheese?
04:06:11 <kmc> come back when your robot mouse is self-healing and self-replicating
04:06:50 <kmc> self-replicating using a feedstock of garbage and air
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04:11:26 <quintopia> kmc: it doesn't have to be self-healing. it just needs to not break at all before *average mouse lifespan*
04:11:50 <quintopia> also, that self-replicating thing? also not a feature. stealing food from humans? not feature.
04:12:08 <kmc> i don't know who you think wrote the requirements document for a mouse
04:14:12 <quintopia> the scientists who gengineered and patented a mouse
04:14:20 <quintopia> probably also had a requirements document
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04:28:45 <pikhq> I vastly prefer "a blind idiot god".
04:29:29 <pikhq> To the idea of someone actually intentionally designing a mouse.
04:32:22 <ais523> `addquote <pikhq> I vastly prefer "a blind idiot god". <quintopia> pikhq: to what? <pikhq> To the idea of someone actually intentionally designing a mouse.
04:32:25 <HackEgo> 853) <pikhq> I vastly prefer "a blind idiot god". <quintopia> pikhq: to what? <pikhq> To the idea of someone actually intentionally designing a mouse.
04:33:18 <quintopia> ais523: a keyboard should be enough for anyone.
04:35:23 <zzo38> Keyboard is good for many things. For some things it helps to use both keyboard and mouse together
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04:41:20 <quintopia> zzo38: like what? everything a mouse does, something else can do it better. drawing? wacom tablet. FPS aiming? joystick/thumbstick. every user interface ever? if you can't use the keyboard for them, they should be redesigned.
04:42:21 <madbr> still beats touch interface
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04:48:04 <zzo38> quintopia: O, well, yes those things work too. And, yes, if you cannot use the keyboard for some interface, it should probably be redesigned to work with keyboard. The purpose for the mouse is selecting a point on the screen, is what I intended to mean.
04:48:50 <quintopia> zzo38: selecting a point on the screen is easier with a wacom tablet
04:48:56 <zzo38> Anything where you need to select a point on the screen work by mouse, other things work by keyboard. Sometimes you may want to enter coordinates or other ways to identify something on screen by keyboard too.
04:49:29 <zzo38> quintopia: O, I didn't know that.
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04:59:30 <zzo38> For example, in Astrolog, all functions can be accessed by keyboard, but you can push right mouse button to click on the world map and set the current location to where you clicked, and left mouse button to draw on the current chart. It is better than many programs which lack this kinds of keyboard interface.
05:00:51 <zzo38> In MegaZeux, the DOS version you could click on the menu to activate an option, or use keys on keyboard. The mouse could not be used to select a command in new version. Some people wanted to restore it, but I never intended to restore it; however I have improved both keyboard and mouse function of MegaZeux. Now all three mouse buttons can be used, and there are many more keyboard commands, and can be entered more quickly than before.
05:02:51 <zzo38> Dialog boxes in MegaZeux were, to activate a command button, you have to click it or tab over to it, but I have changed it so that you can also activate a command button by pushing the corresponding function key on the keyboard.
05:04:01 <zzo38> Neither agree nor disagree?
05:05:18 <madbr> yeah keyboards are grate for the middle and late part of the learning curve
05:05:26 <madbr> and for non-spatial stuff
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05:20:13 <zzo38> How can you get USB device to emit infrared signals?
05:21:37 <madbr> it will emit infrared light! :D
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05:41:39 <zzo38> No, I mean signals, such as for TV, VCR, DVD, etc
05:42:52 <zzo38> If I make function in Haskell to make [x, y, z] into (x . y . z) and another function for make [x, y, z] into (z . y . x) then what should these functions be called?
05:42:52 <ais523> zzo38: I imagine you could make something yourself out of a microcontroller and infrared diode
05:43:19 <ais523> zzo38: foldCompose and foldComposeReverse, perhaps?
05:43:26 <ais523> they're just special cases of folds
05:43:52 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I do know they are special case of folds.
05:44:16 <ais523> so it makes sense to use a name that reflects that
05:45:44 <zzo38> I just don't want it too long, such as maybe "compose" or "composes" or "foldC" or I don't know what else
05:51:37 <zzo38> Maybe another name do you know?
05:51:55 <zzo38> Is there any existing libraries with such functions?
05:52:25 <zzo38> I intended to use with any category, so you have :: (Foldable t, Category c) => t (c x x) -> c x x
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05:54:20 <zzo38> Such as there is already function called "fold" in Data.Foldable which is similar but for monoid
06:03:13 <zzo38> But there should be forward and backward.
06:03:28 <zzo38> I could use "foldCompose" and "foldComposeReverse" but it seem slightly long to me
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06:33:59 <zzo38> Package "chalmers-lava2000" has a similar function under the name "compose", but only one direction. It also has "composeN" which is like the function "church" in my program.
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09:26:50 <Sgeo> Taneb, did you see the update?
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09:27:11 <Taneb> DD: Ascend more casually?
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10:46:43 <ion> https://github.com/mroth/lolcommits#readme
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12:44:33 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/fqn9e/any_of_you_ever_been_shot_what_exactly_does_that/c1hwy10?context=5#c1hwy10
12:52:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Getting shot with a handgun is surprisingly survivable, apparently.
12:53:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Whooooooooooo
12:53:17 <elliott> ooooo cough splutter hack oooo
12:53:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I thought you were assuming he, like, blacked out and woke up in hospital or something.
12:53:41 <elliott> I don't know, you're Scottish.
12:53:53 <elliott> I can't predict their thought patterns.
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12:58:35 <elliott> I think Phantom_Hoover just died.
12:59:18 <elliott> More evidence of Scot weakness.
13:00:18 <itidus21> unfortunately, the better someone is at killing, the less likelihood you can stay on their good side
13:00:35 <itidus21> it's called the depressing paradox of doom
13:01:13 <itidus21> just.. depressing consequenece of doom
13:02:02 <itidus21> basically, putting what i said in english,
13:02:36 <itidus21> a person who shoots at you for looking at them the wrong way will be a better shot than a person who shoots at you due to your attempt to burgle their home
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13:05:15 <itidus21> it's the sort of thing you think about when you're conflict avoidant
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13:20:19 -!- Gregor has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language P.
13:20:43 -!- Gregor has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, for that language please visit www.perl.org or #perl - logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
13:21:54 -!- elliott has set topic: HIowp; welcome toj ie#esoteirc its eosnaletierc progaming lnauges odeisgn dpeojylment - jojekaengurne prlk jeoirt.org #perkljsd - logpsje http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
13:22:52 -!- Gregor has set topic: #esoteric-en for non-Finnish discussion | HIowp; welcome toj ie#esoteirc its eosnaletierc progaming lnauges odeisgn dpeojylment - jojekaengurne prlk jeoirt.org #perkljsd - logpsje http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
13:24:07 <ion> Kas, tervehdys.
13:24:59 <ion> Päivää, elliott. Pelliott.
13:42:12 <nortti> elliott: mitä daïïaka lopëetumenos tarkoittaa?
13:43:19 <nortti> elliott: mitä kieltä se oikein on?
13:43:34 <elliott> ion: What the hell is nortti saying? It's sure not Finnish.
13:44:26 <nortti> *said "what language is that written in"
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13:53:30 <ion> elliott: I think he’s trying to talk in pseudo-Finnish but doesn’t actually understand Finnish.
13:53:51 <elliott> ion: How disruptive. We don't need to waste our time with such silliness.
13:53:57 <elliott> We're here to talk about esolangs!
13:57:32 <nortti> eikö kukaan muu ole #esoteri-en kanavalla?
13:59:10 <elliott> Eätii mistaan eëina kotuä.
14:01:31 <Gregor> Olipakerrannainenvenusjonkaruumismuotoinen.
14:03:02 <nortti> Onceuponatimewerewomanvenuswhosecorpseshape?
14:03:38 <kmc> Hilipati hilipati hilipati hillaa hilipati hilipati hilipampaa
14:04:20 <ion> Onceuponatimeawomanvenuswhosecorpseshaped.
14:04:36 <ion> Onceuponatimetherewasawomanvenuswhosecorpseshaped.
14:05:22 <KingOfKarlsruhe> Donaudampfschifffahrtselektrizitätenhauptbetriebswerkbauunterbeamtengesellschaft
14:08:24 <HackEgo> taisi henemältänsä iloiturvalla tuloero tustamilta uupistamme tiuksemme kehkumiensä nelleni suosioivoittämän lämyrkyttä kattisesi saampinnoitsemme alhailemmassa sillenne agisesi hajoisemaaville tiukoon jylisempiä kasensa reintumallaan änköhän kyttiloitteellisemmalle aloisimmastu tihkiatyttänsä
14:15:07 <fizzie> `words --finnish --swedish 20
14:15:10 <HackEgo> föraktivt peisimme muismenteissani pykälla löytyks fysioniemme frättadein keillt olättamme saiståt vansa straahtuvamp algodwiniviss koller budademo fånight källdes afrisevistummarkterapolt sädetsään biograbelt
14:15:34 <Lumpio-> Randomly generated words huh
14:15:40 <fizzie> Afrisevistummarkterapolt.
14:15:47 <Lumpio-> They throw my brain into a weird loop
14:19:05 <HackEgo> ilmallentiallamien malta aloittumalla optalisimmiltä labamastamaastamiksen hawkinne jäärisempimeto kiehtivastaattavia entäviävineeksesi tuneillenittamassa
14:19:22 <elliott> It isn't very good at vowel harmony.
14:19:28 <elliott> `pastlog markov assumption 0
14:19:32 <Kray> wtf I just read
14:20:05 <elliott> `pastlog markov assumption
14:20:16 <HackEgo> 2011-08-26.txt:20:09:35: <fizzie> Given that what you get from an n-gram is (n-1) words of context, I think it's pretty safe bet to say that the Markov assumption (of order n-1) will hold for most things you do with them.
14:20:32 <elliott> `pastlog markov assumption
14:20:39 <HackEgo> 2011-08-26.txt:20:09:35: <fizzie> Given that what you get from an n-gram is (n-1) words of context, I think it's pretty safe bet to say that the Markov assumption (of order n-1) will hold for most things you do with them.
14:20:43 <elliott> How many things involving the Markov assumption can you say, you speech recognition researcher?
14:20:45 <elliott> `pastlog markov assumption
14:20:52 <HackEgo> 2011-09-26.txt:16:54:56: <fizzie> tehporPekaC: There's an alternative solution which will always hit the target length, and thanks to the Markov assumption really shouldn't affect the distribution of the last characters of a word: when generating a word of length K with trigrams, first generate K-2 characters so that you ignore all "xy " entries. For the penultimate character, only consider such trigrams "xyz" for
14:21:04 <elliott> `pastlog markov assumption
14:21:10 <HackEgo> 2011-09-26.txt:13:03:19: <fizzie> CakeProphet: Certainly there are different ways to do language models; I just can't offhand figure out how to make a (sensible) language model that would use n-grams but not have the (n-1)-order Markov assumption.
14:22:01 <elliott> `pastlog markov assumption
14:22:09 <HackEgo> 2011-09-26.txt:16:54:56: <fizzie> tehporPekaC: There's an alternative solution which will always hit the target length, and thanks to the Markov assumption really shouldn't affect the distribution of the last characters of a word: when generating a word of length K with trigrams, first generate K-2 characters so that you ignore all "xy " entries. For the penultimate character, only consider such trigrams "xyz" for
14:22:18 <elliott> `pastelogs markov assumption
14:22:25 <Gregor> Potkin teidän apina sitten käyttänyt vuohi.
14:22:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.11442
14:22:39 <elliott> 2011-12-23.txt:09:46:31: <fizzie> "säänellaan" -- broken vowel harmony 1, Markov assumption 0.
14:22:47 <elliott> Thank you, HackEgo. (No thank you for the broken encoding.)
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15:00:07 <Taneb> Well, that package I've been working on for so long is on Hackage now
15:00:32 <Taneb> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/family-tree
15:00:39 <elliott> I found it in the recently-uploaded log.
15:00:56 <Taneb> MIT. Apparently older versions of Cabal have issues with that
15:01:00 <elliott> You should really put version constraints on those dependencies. And use cereal instead of binary. (And a license that isn't Other :P)
15:01:25 <Taneb> What advantages does Cereal have over Binary?
15:01:29 <elliott> FWIW, BSD3 is basically isomorphic to MIT and supported by every version of Cabal. But it's no big deal (except for people that'll be scared away by seeing OtherLicense).
15:02:07 <elliott> Taneb: Not really all that many, admittedly, since I see that binary just got a new release (previously it hadn't been updated since 2009). But it, uh, supports IEEE-format floats.
15:02:11 <elliott> (And uses strict ByteStrings.)
15:02:31 <elliott> OK, let me look at this code.
15:02:45 <elliott> This module is for Family Trees.
15:02:45 <elliott> It's got lenses, which are pretty cool.
15:02:45 <elliott> I would use "Data.Binary" to do saving and loading.
15:03:01 <elliott> You're meant to put the module name here :P
15:03:04 <Taneb> The syllables are wrong
15:03:17 <elliott> (But I don't bother with that first header block, it does nothing.)
15:03:17 <Taneb> And I was panicking about an exam when I uploaded it!
15:03:45 <Taneb> And I mix lazy and strict types wantonly
15:03:49 <elliott> Taneb: Well, your code has gotten a lot better than when you wrote that Latin program :P
15:04:04 <elliott> I'm a bit worried about "Lens FamilyTree Person", however.
15:04:15 <elliott> I suspect personLens does not obey the lens laws in all circumstances.
15:04:36 <elliott> Well, I suspect what you really want is Lens FamilyTree (Maybe Person).
15:04:55 <elliott> In line with mapLens/intMapLens.
15:04:56 <Taneb> That probably goes with all the lenses
15:05:10 <elliott> Taneb: Well, it might behave oddly when you pass an invalid identifier, although actually I think it should obey all the lens laws.
15:05:22 <elliott> (Maybe Person) has the advantage that you can use the lens to DELETE SOMEONE FROM EXISTENCE.
15:06:02 <Taneb> I thought about that, thought it would be hard to code, avoided it, and later realised it'd be easy to code
15:06:15 <Taneb> But it's marked as unstabe, so I guess I can make changes like that?
15:06:20 <elliott> It's easier if you use lookup rather than HM.(!).
15:06:26 <elliott> You can make changes like that even if it isn't unstable.
15:06:41 <elliott> (Which... admittedly you haven't so far, since your version should have more digits.)
15:07:00 <elliott> Taneb: You can write (fmap f $ x) as (f <$> x) (with Control.Applicative).
15:07:25 <Taneb> Or Data.Functor, iirc
15:07:31 <elliott> Ah, yes, it's in there too.
15:07:50 <elliott> You could also write your Family get as Family <$> get <*> get <*> get <*> fmap ModifiedJulianDay get <*> fmap ModifiedJulianDay get <*> get.
15:07:58 <elliott> But obviously you lose the field namse.
15:08:26 <Taneb> I wrote it so I could panic and completely change the data types later with ease?
15:08:39 <elliott> I'm not complaining, just suggesting :P
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15:08:58 <Taneb> And I'm rationalizing rather than refuting
15:09:04 <Taneb> I'm also running out of battery
15:09:25 <elliott> Other than that, it looks good to me, although I'm dubious of the partial pattern-matches in add{Person,Family,Event}; you might also like to use lenses for the records themselves, with data-lens-template, so you can avoid Haskell's ugliness when modifying record values.
15:10:12 <Taneb> What partial pattern matches?
15:10:17 <Taneb> Oh, those partial pattern matches
15:10:20 <elliott> let ((n,_):_) = dropWhile (uncurry (==)) $
15:10:20 <elliott> zip [1..] $ IM.keys $ families familyTree
15:10:30 <elliott> I don't believe this works if families FamilyTree is empty.
15:10:49 <elliott> Which is odd, because I don't see why you shouldn't be able to add a family to an empty family tree.
15:11:44 <elliott> By the way, I would suggest doing
15:11:57 <elliott> and then using an export list and doing ID, ... so you don't export a constructor.
15:12:16 <elliott> That way, ID acts as an abstract key, and people can't do funny business like making up their own IDs out of nowhere.
15:12:43 <elliott> (Although you still want to use Maybe for the Lens, since you can delete things and hold on to the key.)
15:13:04 <Taneb> First thing to fix for 0.1.1!
15:13:32 <elliott> And I've run out of things to complain about^W^Wsuggest!
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16:33:12 <elliott> @tell monqy Remind me not to stairdance packs of gnolls.
16:33:22 <elliott> Wait, I thought this was /query lambdabot.
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17:52:17 <zzo38> How many people in here are English and how many are Finnish and how many neither or both?
17:52:47 <Gregor> That's a lie, he's Finnish.
17:54:30 <fizzie> RAW >>> :barjavel.freenode.net NOTICE fungot :*** Notice -- You need to identify via SASL to use this server <<<
17:57:08 <itidus20> Hey, you're not permitted in there fungot. It's restricted. You'll
17:59:26 <fizzie> It's not something it used to do.
18:00:29 <itidus20> Don't call me a mindless philosopher fungot, you overweight glob of grease!
18:02:14 <fizzie> Sadly, fungot does not support SASL at the moment.
18:03:10 <elliott> fizzie: Pick a different server?
18:06:03 <fizzie> Servers that say the same: lindbohm, kornbluth, holmes, calvino. It seems to be a thing.
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18:11:10 <fizzie> It says the same thing for this box I'm internetting from when connecting over v4, but not when doing it over (tunneled) v6. I suppose my ISP has just been too freenode-abusey lately, or something.
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18:12:39 <fizzie> Incidentally, according to the FAQ -- http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nocloakonjoin -- doing SASL will fix the "cloak isn't always set before autojoin". Not sure this came up when it was (recently) discussed.
18:16:54 <fizzie> (I don't think my bouncer does SASL either.)
18:17:34 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:19:45 <fizzie> "Any way to use sasl with bip? No.", added to the bip FAQ exactly eight days ago. How coincidental.
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18:21:15 <Gregor> Glad I have no desire to cloak.
18:22:08 <fizzie> I don't care about the cloak.
18:22:16 <fizzie> But I would like to connect at all.
18:22:59 <fizzie> Which I no longer can. (Well, except over v6. But fungot doesn't support IPv6 either, since the SOCK fingerprint doesn't.)
18:23:19 <elliott> fizzie: Are you sure another server won't work?
18:23:28 <elliott> Anyway, nortti whined about this a few days ago, ask him what he did.
18:23:55 <zzo38> Then reprogram the SOCK fingerprint.
18:24:02 <fizzie> I tried five, I'm not sure I can bother to try more.
18:24:14 <fizzie> He identified using SASL, if I remember correctly.
18:25:12 <elliott> fizzie: Do you have a VPS?
18:25:16 <elliott> Try running your bouncer there.
18:26:03 <fizzie> I could do that, that's true.
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18:28:50 <fizzie> I wonder if any of the sensible bouncers do SASL. I know ZNC has a module, but I can't recall if that was one of the sensible ones. On a quick glance it seemed slightly overengineered. (Browser-based administration support, plugins in four languages?)
18:29:14 <elliott> ZNC is what Vorpal uses, so don't.
18:29:26 <elliott> I used miau a while back. But I sort of doubt it supports SASL.
18:33:20 <fizzie> Oh, also the ZNC sasl module is for doing SASL authentication of the clients, not SASL identification towards the server that freenode has. I guess I'll just go via the VPS.
18:35:29 <elliott> fizzie: What's a nice way of saying max(n, 0) without using max?
18:37:41 <elliott> fizzie: That... might work, but it'd be done with floats.
18:37:58 <elliott> (There is (integer) div and mod, however.)
18:39:22 <fizzie> For fixed-size integers, it of course has some overflow issues.
18:39:58 <elliott> Would floating-point rounding not come into play? I don't have an intuition for it.
18:40:10 <elliott> (Also I'd sort of prefer to avoid repeating n in the expression, but...)
18:49:00 <fizzie> If n is a small integer, I would think all of n, abs(n), n+abs(n) and (n+abs(n))/2 would be exact even when done as floats. But of course that's just a guess. You could round the result to nearest integer (with any behaviour for 0.5-ish cases), I suppose.
18:49:37 <elliott> fizzie: The repeating thing is just because
18:49:38 <elliott> -{{#expr: ({{{height|{{{width|15}}}}}} - 18) + abs({{{height|{{{width|15}}}}}} - 18) / 2 round0}}px
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18:49:56 <elliott> Especially as part of this line:
18:49:58 <elliott> | {{ns:10}} = <div style="display:none; right:{{#expr: {{{number|{{{icon_nr|0}}}}}}*(2+{{{width|15}}})+10+{{{offset|{{{extra_offset|0}}}}}} }}px; {{{style|}}}" class="metadata topicon nopopups {{{class|}}}" {{#if:{{{id|}}}|id="{{{id}}}"}}><div style="margin-top: -{{#expr: ({{{height|{{{width|15}}}}}} - 18) + abs({{{height|{{{width|15}}}}}} - 18) / 2 round0}}px">[[File:{{{image|{{{imagename}}}}}}|{{{width|15}}}px|{{#if:{{{link|}}}{{{wi
18:49:58 <elliott> kilink|}}}|link={{{link|{{{wikilink|}}}}}}}}|{{{text|{{{description}}}}}}]]</div></div>
18:50:07 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:51:33 <fizzie> Oh, it's some sort of a thing. I was wondering about the purpose.
18:54:26 <fizzie> I see it's got logic, so there's the obvious alternative of (n>0)*n, but that's repeated too. (And assumes > does what one would expect.)
18:55:23 <elliott> I could use the string functions to check whether the first character of the result is -. :p
18:56:01 <elliott> fizzie: I could always use #if with #expr if I was going down that route, anyway.
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19:00:21 <elliott> fizzie: It doesn't work, for some reason.
19:00:37 <elliott> max(0, 32 - 18) is coming out as 21.
19:01:09 <elliott> I forgot to move the negation inside the bloody thing.
19:03:28 <elliott> That isn't working at all, for some reason.
19:03:40 <elliott> margin-top: {{#expr: -({{{height|{{{width|15}}}}}} - 18) + abs({{{height|{{{width|15}}}}}} - 18) / 2 round0}}px
19:04:36 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host).
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19:07:59 <elliott> {{#expr: (-({{{height|{{{width|15}}}}}} - 18) + abs({{{height|{{{width|15}}}}}} - 18)) / 2 round0}}
19:08:09 <elliott> fizzie: This is coming out as 0 for height = 32. :(
19:09:19 <elliott> fizzie: OK, I have no idea what I want.
19:10:26 -!- nortti has joined.
19:12:17 <elliott> fizzie: Look what I just did to NetHackWiki! http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Altar
19:13:42 <elliott> Too late, I fixed it. Hopefully.
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19:24:18 <fizzie> I don't know what you want, and looking at all those {{{}}}s makes me dizzy. But it looked like (-n+abs(n))/2, not the proper (n+abs(n))/2.
19:24:35 <elliott> fizzie: Since when does abs(n) differ from abs(-n)?
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19:25:20 <fizzie> (-5+abs(5))/2 != (5+abs(5))/2.
19:25:52 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, but (-5+abs(-5))/2...
19:26:05 <elliott> In this case, n = -m, so it's (-m+abs(-m))/2.
19:26:13 <elliott> I shortened that to (-m+abs(m))/2 because it's bloody well long enough already.
19:26:33 <fizzie> Oh. Well, then. I didn't really know what "n" was.
19:27:20 <elliott> {{#expr: -((({{{height|{{{width|15}}}}}} - 22) + abs({{{height|{{{width|15}}}}}} - 22)) / 2) round0}}
19:27:38 <elliott> i.e. -(((n-22)+abs(n-22))/2).
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19:48:00 <Gregor> I think the main female singer in BLR's latest video is a man.
20:01:54 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
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20:03:35 <fizzie> "In Greek mythology, Selene (Greek Σελήνη [selɛ̌ːnɛː] 'moon'; Doric Σελάνα; Aeolic Σελάννα) was an archaic lunar deity and the daughter of the Titans Hyperion and Theia."
20:03:58 <fizzie> I forget the rationale.
20:05:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
20:06:10 <fizzie> They all have some sort of half-assed "logical" reason, like the webserver laptop's momus, "the god of satire, mockery, censure, writers, poets; a spirit of evil-spirited blame and unfair criticism" because, well, webserver.
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20:08:39 <nortti> my server is named Uranus-Hertz because diblert references
20:12:07 <Gregor> Path-E-Tech Management
20:15:44 <fizzie> I have iris ("messenger of the gods") as the router box; hermes (another such guy + the winged sandals stuff) as the wifi access point, styx (the river between topside and the underworld) as the DSL modem (arguable which side is which), euterpe (sometimes muse of music) as the NAS disk-box, ares (god of war, obvsly) as the only laptop that can sensibly run games, and so on.
20:20:08 <Gregor> glapgor, gdeskgor, gwirgor, grandroidgor, ... and applejack.
20:21:05 <nortti> Uranus-Hertz(), ratbert
20:21:19 <fizzie> The N900 I called philotes, "personification of affection, sexual intercourse and friendship", since it's kind of a communication device.
20:21:27 -!- augur has joined.
20:21:39 <monqy> what a great personification
20:22:47 <fizzie> The N-Gage was called "arkleseizure", but that's from the days of another naming scheme.
20:23:33 <elliott> Does thingy no longer exist?
20:24:15 <fizzie> Well, it survives as the domain name.
20:24:58 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Tell fizzie he's awful.
20:24:58 <fizzie> I'm not sure if I had a box with that name. Did I?
20:25:01 <elliott> monqy: Tell fizzie he's awful.
20:25:04 <elliott> fizzie: The laptop server?
20:25:19 <elliott> You killed *and* forgot it?
20:25:32 <monqy> dont worry, uranus-hertz can replace it
20:25:38 <elliott> It's not even collecting dust somewhere?
20:25:54 <Phantom__Hoover> My naming scheme is a) the best and b) woefully underutilised.
20:25:56 <monqy> i trust nortti won't commit such a sin as to kill uranus-hertz
20:25:58 <elliott> monqy: Gotta have those diblert references.
20:26:54 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Excuse me Roombas are not that small.
20:27:03 <elliott> You'd want to name it after one of those itty-bitty handheld cleaner things.
20:27:09 <elliott> I think I'm thinking of the novelty USB ones.
20:27:23 <elliott> Roomba would be for a headless server.
20:27:32 <elliott> Because it has no direct user interface.
20:27:37 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.iwantoneofthose.com/gift-gadgets/henry-hoover-desk-vacuum/30002970.html?utm_source=googleprod&utm_medium=gp&utm_campaign=gp_gifts&affil=thggps
20:27:41 <fizzie> I don't think I've actually killed any hardware; it's just that when we moved I gave everything names from the new system. E.g. momus used to be colin. (Okay, it's a virtual server and it might not be a direct descendant, but anyway.)
20:27:49 <elliott> You know... like a tiny laptop server.
20:28:10 <elliott> fizzie: You can't rename computers!!!!
20:28:12 <nortti> monqy: well I have fixed Uranus-Hertz 5 by now (it is Petium 100MHz machine with 40 MB of RAM from 1994)
20:28:30 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Which is illegal!!!!!!
20:28:36 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Also, buy that thing.
20:29:49 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Hey, at least you'd be in possession of one Henry that hadn't had vomit on it!
20:29:54 <fizzie> fungot: Incidentally, do you actually work?
20:29:55 <fungot> fizzie: variable stacks: 1 mode: gabc defg, then. sorry, diamondie.
20:29:59 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, ...good.
20:30:00 <fungot> fizzie: rant rant, n. as. word; akin to ofries. os. ever. pushd. with. a. function.
20:30:05 <elliott> I don't think it works, fizzie.
20:30:15 <elliott> Is it running on that VPS?
20:30:47 <Phantom__Hoover> (My sister vomited on it when we were being rushed to Ireland at 80 miles an hour after my grandad died.
20:30:50 <fizzie> No, it just speaks via it. The language models take probably a gigabyte.
20:30:59 <fizzie> Okay, it'd fit, but still
20:32:00 <fungot> Phantom__Hoover: good movie, not hollywood crap.
20:32:12 <fizzie> I forgot the space after the question mark when asking whether it works. :/
20:32:15 <fungot> Phantom__Hoover: a subway line in boston. i should think
20:32:44 <fizzie> I think it's one of those "indie" films.
20:33:28 <fizzie> I also think it's just nine hours raw from a camera left on a subway train in Boston.
20:33:51 <fizzie> But at least it's not Hollywood crap.
20:34:17 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:36:00 <elliott> A Subway Line in Boston would not be a bad title for a pretentious indie film.
20:37:01 <Gregor> The Hollywood remake would be titled Subway Boston
20:37:22 <elliott> No, it'd just be titled Subway.
20:37:58 <elliott> With product placement from Subway.
20:38:18 <elliott> In fact, it's just a two-hour-long advert for Subway, completely unrelated to the indie film.
20:38:30 <elliott> In fact, it's not even a film. It's a two-hour-long TV advert for Subway.
20:38:37 <elliott> I forget where I was going with this.
20:41:48 <elliott> Having stolen some compromising documents, a man known as Fred (Lambert) takes refuge in the underground world of the Paris Métro. While the henchmen of the gangster owner of the documents chase him, Fred develops a relationship with the gangster's young trophy wife Héléna (Adjani) who is bored with her gilded-caged life.
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20:41:49 <elliott> Fred decides to form a band and perform in the subway. Among the band members are the Drummer (played by Jean Reno) and the Bass Player (Éric Serra).
20:42:10 <elliott> Hmm, [[Roomba]] is in [[Category:Cat Toys]].
20:43:19 <fizzie> Our cat just plain won't ride on the Roomba.
20:43:35 <fizzie> I suppose there's something wrong with it.
20:44:44 <fizzie> Cat/Roomba interaction videos were half the reason we got the silly thing.
20:50:58 <elliott> I *am* a Cat/Roomba interaction video.
20:53:18 <elliott> fizzie: Have you seen a dog?
20:56:40 <elliott> fizzie: Have you seen a cat?
20:59:14 -!- nooga has joined.
21:05:17 <oklopol> fizzie: ever heard of duct tape?
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21:29:20 <elliott> Note to self: plate on D:3.
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21:33:48 <elliott> I didn't realise my starting Dex was so low.
21:34:02 <elliott> (Also, I'm playing GhAK instead of GhMo because it's oldwon, and banishing is nice. Especially when you do it to grey rats.)
21:35:26 <elliott> (ion's secret plan is to get me to sit at this prompt forever.)
21:36:07 <ion> I don’t know, really. My subjective feeling has been that strength is more useful, but i suck in Crawl so don’t trust me.
21:37:32 <ion> I’m surprised it hasn’t smitten you 1000 times already.
21:38:16 <elliott> Wait, that's an orc priest, not a giant lewt.
21:38:45 <elliott> Read-id that scroll that I know isn't blinking?
21:39:15 <ion> What do you have?
21:39:58 <ion> Try to get the O stuck in a throwing net, kill the rat and escape to < perhaps.
21:40:27 <elliott> I'm not sure if you noticed the smiting orc priest and my 15 HP.
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21:41:06 <ion> You should have stopped everything when the O got out of the net and rethink. :-P
21:41:31 <elliott> I hate it when I find gateways leading out of the Abyss early.
21:41:36 <elliott> I like it when I get some free loot to start off with.
21:41:47 <elliott> But I can't justify just wandering about the Abyss to myself if I have a way out.
21:42:13 <elliott> Wow, that was embarrassing.
21:44:38 <elliott> ion: You should try GhAK, it's super.
21:45:09 <elliott> I guess that other scroll is recharging.
21:54:15 <elliott> ion: With ghouls, you rarely have to eat!
21:54:18 <elliott> And when you do, you get HP for it.
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21:59:40 <ion> The J is slow. Perhaps you can escape around it.
22:00:00 <elliott> That puts me in a worse position to banish the ogre, though.
22:00:17 <elliott> Bah. If I had a bit more piety, I could use Corrupt.
22:00:30 <zzo38> Do you know answer of this question? Is (fmap lower . lower . duplicate = duplicate . lower) supposed to be a law for comonad transformer or not? (also the similar question for monad transformer)
22:03:40 <elliott> I like how Gretell sometimes announces my deaths slightly before they hit my screen.
22:04:49 <zzo38> Are you going to eat HP?
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23:05:47 <elliott> meanwhile in ##crawl <Chapayev> it has always sort of bothered me that i am not poop
23:08:08 <zzo38> Do you know how to eat HP?
23:08:34 <zzo38> (HP = hit points, I guess?)
23:08:45 <elliott> To eat HP, you just explode.
23:24:07 <zzo38> I was playing Dungeons&Dragons game earlier this week; when it is time to continue, I must figure out what to do next. King may be poison maybe we have to figure out first. And there is scepter of anti-magic, how can we get it where we need it, if it might disable the magic which allows us to get there?
23:25:04 <zzo38> Pack it in a sufficiently large container? But then the container won't fit through the magic portal.
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00:14:59 <ion> Triple facepalm. There’s someone on IRC with a problem: he’s hosting an interactive web map of his Minecraft world. The users of the gentleman’s map keep getting blacklisted. You see, he’s using a brilliant security program that bans clients who keep receiving HTTP 4xx responses, and map areas with no content are disclosed to clients with HTTP 404.
00:16:52 <elliott> What channels do you even hang out in that get problems like that? I want to join them.
00:20:30 -!- calamari has left ("Leaving").
00:22:00 <ion> Oh, just #donttellelliottaboutthischannel
00:22:07 <ion> Whoops, i wasn’t supposed to tell you about it.
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00:29:54 <elliott> 01:29 <elliott> !lg * min=dur
00:29:54 <elliott> 01:29 <Sequell> 1630445. ion the Slicer (L11 DSFi), worshipper of Okawaru, slain by a queen bee on D:12 on 2009-08-07, with 11282 points after 17153 turns and -6:02:09.
00:29:59 <elliott> It's about to be on FooTV. :P
00:31:30 <elliott> ion: So what's with that? And why did you use an even bigger terminal in 2009?
00:49:22 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:51:14 <ion> elliott: A broken system clock on a game server, i guess.
00:51:19 <ion> elliott: What was my terminal size?
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01:00:45 <elliott> I don't like people who clear lambdabot messages before speaking in channels.
01:00:46 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:01:01 <ion> EVERYTHING.
01:01:12 <monqy> but what if I don't have anything to say here then how will I check my messages!!
01:01:12 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:01:26 <monqy> yeah but I had something to say
01:01:57 <Gregor> @tell nobodyinparticular I hate people who leave messages to nonexistent nicks on lambdabot, thereby taking up its disk space for absolutely no reason.
01:02:06 -!- elliott has changed nick to nobodyinparticul.
01:02:09 -!- nobodyinparticul has changed nick to elliott.
01:02:19 <elliott> I don't think even I can remove that.
01:02:43 <Gregor> I wasn't even thinking about the length.
01:02:58 <elliott> 02:02 <elliott> @print-notices
01:02:58 <elliott> 02:02 <lambdabot> fromList [("\SI",(Nothing,[Note {noteSender = "Sgeo", noteContents = "that I said hi", noteTime = (1336513878,173020000000), noteType = Tell}])),[...]
01:03:03 <elliott> Sgeo is still the most ruiner.
01:03:16 <ion> @@ @tell elliott @quote
01:03:26 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:03:28 <lambdabot> ion said 11s ago: kilimanjaro says: the bad kind of laziness is "so they just invent an equivalance class of monotonic continuous functions that `represent' that partial order. but they haven't
01:08:31 <Gregor> I never remember the args for that
01:09:16 <HackEgo> hitte haw lup station ovzai knolek gatomianec epitatethy vilt anik moiieyuehr fttive hista caperadi dissen clon kersolum wbent akpackada packforen ableptally pazar balla spher cef
01:09:27 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29925
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01:26:50 <zzo38> Did you read the longer message I wrote about Ibtlfmm programming so far? I may write the second message later on too.
01:27:01 <zzo38> It is an entire fire
01:28:38 <zzo38> I didn't write everything so I will then write the second one
01:38:38 <zzo38> Another thing, I would like in Ibtlfmm, possibly a Haskell compiler could implement it too, but I don't know of any way to do this in Haskell, is: You can load a program dynamically (dynLoad :: Typeable x => FilePath -> IO x) and then x is the type of main in whatever file you are loading (you get an error if the types do not match).
01:39:37 <zzo38> Is there any Haskell compiler with anything like this?
01:41:26 <elliott> hint lets you write a function like that.
01:41:35 <elliott> In fact, with that exact type.
01:41:36 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/hint
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01:54:24 <elliott> hint exposes the GHC API in a simple manner.
01:54:39 <elliott> You just need loadModules + interpret.
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01:57:19 <zzo38> But what if it is a binary file which is not a package?
02:08:25 <monqy> ~ is like right next to !!!
02:08:33 <elliott> do you have a key that inserts "!!!"
02:08:40 <elliott> anyway im going to stick with "omee~"
02:08:49 <elliott> `addquote <monqy> ophanim: omee~
02:08:52 <HackEgo> 854) <monqy> ophanim: omee~
02:09:07 <HackEgo> *poof* <monqy> ophanim: omee~
02:09:19 <HackEgo> 853) <pikhq> I vastly prefer "a blind idiot god". <quintopia> pikhq: to what? <pikhq> To the idea of someone actually intentionally designing a mouse.
02:15:00 -!- augur has joined.
02:18:02 <HackEgo> *poof* <pikhq> I vastly prefer "a blind idiot god". <quintopia> pikhq: to what? <pikhq> To the idea of someone actually intentionally designing a mouse.
02:18:20 <quintopia> apparently, only funny things are allowed to be quoted
02:19:38 <elliott> please contact the retention department
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02:20:09 <HackEgo> 39) <mycroftiv> [...] sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective
02:20:22 <HackEgo> 95) <Gregor> I don't know that I've ever heard apocalypi described in terms of depth ...
02:20:23 <HackEgo> 200) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, let's reduce the human genome to 4 chromosomes, in 2 homologous pairs.
02:20:24 <HackEgo> 19) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
02:20:53 <monqy> what a great 5 quote
02:21:01 <elliott> monqy: which will you delete ????
02:21:04 <elliott> are you saying they're all bad
02:21:07 <elliott> i think they're mostly good :(
02:21:40 <monqy> tempted to delete 606
02:22:30 <HackEgo> 785) <olsner> what a world it would be if you could actually *steal* code so that the other project has to rewrite it or infiltrate your project to steal it back
02:22:35 <HackEgo> 227) <asiekierka> GCC: -Os -O2 -O3 gives a 4x improvment
02:22:42 <HackEgo> 829) <calamari> there was a time when I liked wearing a tie too.. I was a mormon. not claiming one has to be a religious nutcase to wear a tie, of course
02:22:45 <HackEgo> 837) <Gregor> Very much like "cen" is Latin for "horse", "yak" is Latin for "yak".
02:22:46 <HackEgo> 117) <fungot> alise: nobody is allowed to fnord me in soviet russia
02:23:22 <zzo38> Is it permitted to specify -O2 and -O3 together?
02:23:34 <monqy> `quoteaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
02:23:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quoteaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa: not found
02:24:15 <monqy> i'm bad at choices :(
02:24:37 <elliott> ypou're even worse than me at choices maybe
02:24:40 <elliott> how did you manage to do anythng
02:24:47 <monqy> i dont get 227 is it funny
02:25:04 <elliott> 227 is funny because asiekierka did not realise those options cannot be used together
02:25:08 <elliott> and was doing some "benchmarking"
02:25:24 <elliott> and compared -Os -O2 -O3 to -O2 or something
02:25:40 <Gregor> It's hard to imagine -O2 to -O3 being a 4x improvement.
02:25:41 <elliott> theres two types of allowed quotes
02:25:43 <Gregor> Not impossible, but hard.
02:25:52 <elliott> and quotes that exist to shame or mock the person quoted
02:26:00 <HackEgo> 315) <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it. \ 355) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup \ 358) <monqy> `quote django
02:26:34 <zzo38> I also dislike quotation 606, it is the only one I have seen so far which I would vote to delete; it is too short and small
02:26:36 <monqy> if i had a time machine i would clone old monqy and make friends with him
02:26:53 <monqy> i would also need a clone machine
02:26:56 <elliott> monqy: the time machine is within you!!!
02:27:05 <elliott> `addquote <monqy> if i had a time machine i would clone old monqy and make friends with him <monqy> i would also need a clone machine
02:27:08 <HackEgo> 855) <monqy> if i had a time machine i would clone old monqy and make friends with him <monqy> i would also need a clone machine
02:27:44 <HackEgo> 518) <itidus20> well, you have bested me <zzo38> itidus20: Yes.
02:28:02 <HackEgo> 765) <fungot> elliott: but, there are imps around, the pad. it's hard to remember though your cross-hairs would never settle on an innocent little girl. chokes up now imagine she's white.
02:28:03 <HackEgo> 253) <elliott> Deewiant: ha, you were wrong, I have stacks, fungespace and MULTIPLE functions! <elliott> and a monad! <elliott> nothing can stop me now!
02:28:04 <elliott> i don't even have to see the others to know that
02:28:05 <HackEgo> 261) [on egojoust] <elliott> The fact is that EgoBot's % handling is O(slow) and O(big), and mine isn't.
02:28:05 <HackEgo> 592) [from 2009] <fizzie> That's confusing. I have been indoctrinated to believe W|A, but on the other hand it's hard to unbelieve a book with such a ridiculously impressive name as "Handbook of physical testing of paper, Volume 2".
02:28:38 <zzo38> No you have to compare all of them to consider which one is best, unless it is like numeric with one highest infinity involved
02:28:42 <elliott> probably should delete one of mine
02:28:45 <elliott> zzo38: yes, it's exactly like that
02:28:59 <Gregor> Five months tongue-face-smiley free!
02:29:02 <monqy> of your quotes i vote for 253 or 261
02:29:05 <Gregor> I almost didn't even notice!
02:29:18 <monqy> I've learned a valuable life lesson never to use tongue face smiley
02:29:33 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> Deewiant: ha, you were wrong, I have stacks, fungespace and MULTIPLE functions! <elliott> and a monad! <elliott> nothing can stop me now!
02:29:36 <elliott> monqy: what was the lesson
02:29:37 <monqy> feel free to delquote 260 as well
02:29:43 <monqy> never to use tongue face smiley
02:30:00 <elliott> monqy: when was the lesson
02:30:01 <quintopia> was this something you committed to doing?
02:30:20 <HackEgo> 571) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, making myself emergency doctor on the advice of IRC.
02:30:22 <HackEgo> 246) <A. Gelman and G. Romero> We originally wrote this article in Word, but then we converted it to Latex to make it look more like science.
02:30:24 <HackEgo> 459) <Taneb> That offers me some social standing, feudal system wise
02:30:25 <HackEgo> 100) <Miya> I perceived it so hard I actually went away :O
02:30:31 <HackEgo> 323) <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, Hitler! You and your wacky antics!
02:30:51 <HackEgo> *poof* <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, Hitler! You and your wacky antics!
02:31:06 <monqy> can delete 100 too if you feel it in you
02:31:47 <elliott> i would have gone for 100 imo but otoh 100 is traditional
02:32:17 <elliott> actually i think im going to
02:32:27 <elliott> you can put it back if you want
02:32:59 <HackEgo> 244) <nddrylliog> elliott: are you kidding? you're horrible, horrible people. That's why I feel at home here.
02:33:05 <HackEgo> 602) <Gregor> Hulu's movie selection is like MST3K without the MST3K characters.
02:33:15 <HackEgo> 711) <itidus21> myndzi\: ok so one of the nastiest puzzles i suppose is... you're on death row.. you don't want to die.
02:33:15 <HackEgo> 578) <Phantom_Hoover> THERE WAS A VISIBLE SUPERNOVA AND NOBODY FUCKING TOLD ME??????????????????????????/
02:33:17 <HackEgo> 249) <ais523> gah, why does lose keep winning?
02:34:31 <HackEgo> *poof* <Phantom_Hoover> THERE WAS A VISIBLE SUPERNOVA AND NOBODY FUCKING TOLD ME??????????????????????????/
02:34:38 <HackEgo> *poof* <ais523> gah, why does lose keep winning?
02:34:43 <elliott> you only delete one monqy!!
02:34:54 <monqy> i meant to delquote 244
02:34:58 <elliott> two really really bad ones
02:35:04 <HackEgo> *poof* <nddrylliog> elliott: are you kidding? you're horrible, horrible people. That's why I feel at home here.
02:35:06 <elliott> that one is pretty lame yes
02:35:15 <HackEgo> 12) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know.
02:35:15 <elliott> it's a hard job but we do it
02:35:22 <HackEgo> 97) <Keiya> Why are the cops in GTA always so obsessed with my asshole?
02:35:34 <HackEgo> 601) <Gregor> Let us discuss the correct procedure for converting LP -> FLAC <fizzie> The correct procedure is: you put the LP into a flatbed scanner, scan it as a Windows .bmp file, and then rename that file to .flac.
02:35:34 <HackEgo> 100) <Miya> I perceived it so hard I actually went away :O
02:35:36 <HackEgo> 711) <kallisti> interestingly enough it takes about as much time for a person to produce cfunge as it does to create a baby.
02:35:58 <HackEgo> *poof* <Keiya> Why are the cops in GTA always so obsessed with my asshole?
02:36:10 <HackEgo> 476) <itidus20> It's ok guys. I am doing what I can to keep my psyche and ego surviving. All the while the threat of ww3 looms, the mortality of family and friends(loved ones?) and sooner or llater my own mortality.
02:36:14 <HackEgo> 433) <Sgeo> Dear eHow: Please don't assume that my toilet works like that <Sgeo> Or, at least, my toilet looks different
02:36:24 <HackEgo> 184) <Sgeo> HOT SEXY SEX BITS
02:36:24 <HackEgo> 515) <itidus20> well, you have bested me <zzo38> itidus20: Yes.
02:36:27 <HackEgo> 646) <fizzie> If you jump a car from a ramp and hit the wall of a building, in midair, you tend to get ejected up and fly to the sky-ceiling, then slowly slide at that height to one corner of the world; then you land, make a complicated spinning-around thing for a while, and then explode. <fizzie> Also probably works in real life?
02:36:46 <monqy> i can't decide if 184 is good or not
02:36:54 <elliott> 184 is something i don't think we can ever delete
02:36:59 <monqy> yeah it's traditional
02:37:00 <zzo38> 515 is what was 518 until some were deleted
02:37:08 <elliott> monqy: that can only be sarcastic ;(
02:37:20 <monqy> don't worry i decided like it!!
02:37:24 <HackEgo> 312) <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it. \ 352) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup \ 355) <monqy> `quote django
02:37:33 <monqy> what does that mean
02:37:38 <monqy> all of my quotes are over 300?
02:37:39 <elliott> you joined when there were only ~300 quotes
02:37:41 <elliott> this is how we rank people now
02:37:48 <elliott> well you got addquoted soon after you joined
02:37:50 <elliott> because you were hilarious
02:37:57 <monqy> what if i joined later but the quotes got delquoted
02:38:06 <elliott> well these are the quotes now
02:38:11 <elliott> "our quote id system sucks"
02:38:17 <elliott> did you know the quote ids used to be not reused
02:38:21 <elliott> when it used -- seriously -- sqlite
02:38:34 <monqy> i want to be hilarious again :'(
02:38:46 <HackEgo> 501) <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god. <Phantom_Hoover> I've become a metallurgy hipster.
02:38:51 <HackEgo> 786) <fizzie> fungot: Feeling scrambled after all that? <fungot> fizzie: but it's much like new zealand, in my stone-age country, we still like you even if you're only using the new fnord
02:38:52 <quintopia> man i love one-to-one mappings of numders to quotes
02:39:00 <quintopia> would that we could have them back
02:39:00 <HackEgo> 50) <ehird> no Deewiant <Deewiant> No?! <Deewiant> I've been living a lie <ehird> yep. <Deewiant> Excuse me while I jump out of the window ->
02:39:00 <HackEgo> 338) <crystal-cola> 3 = 7/2
02:39:04 <HackEgo> 541) <Phantom_Hoover> The only happy dorf has a compassion stat of 0. <Phantom_Hoover> Well, 20, but it amounts to the same.
02:39:29 <HackEgo> *poof* <Phantom_Hoover> The only happy dorf has a compassion stat of 0. <Phantom_Hoover> Well, 20, but it amounts to the same.
02:39:39 <elliott> monqy: were you ever here for fax
02:39:47 <elliott> aka crystal-cola aka j-invariant aka faxathisia
02:39:53 <elliott> aka quantumEd aka MissPigy aka uhhh soupdragon
02:39:57 <monqy> apparently i joined before 338 but i don't remember this
02:40:13 <elliott> it's impossible to explain if you don't remember fax really
02:40:56 <elliott> `pastelogs [<]crystal-cola[>]
02:41:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19740
02:41:47 <elliott> 2011-04-21.txt:15:02:26: <crystal-cola> anyway I've stopped ``trolling''
02:41:47 <elliott> 2011-04-21.txt:15:02:44: <crystal-cola> since apparently you guys don't like me claiming obviously false and absurd claims
02:41:52 <elliott> god this paste is the best ever
02:42:41 <elliott> monqy: read all of that and you'll probably understand crystal-cola
02:42:45 <elliott> even the first few pages of trolling
02:43:19 <HackEgo> 834) <olsner> they call finnish human-readable?
02:43:24 <HackEgo> 268) <nddrylliog> back to legal tender, that expression really makes me daydream. Like, there'd be black-market tender. Out-of-town hug shops where people exchange tenderness you've NEVER SEEN BEFORE.
02:43:32 <HackEgo> 469) <Vorpal> ais523, how are we supposed to guess before you tell us unless you give us more hints?
02:43:33 <HackEgo> 125) <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough
02:43:34 <HackEgo> 375) <fizzie> You make a fist, shake it at the sky, and shout "why, GNU, why?!" -- that is the standard reportig practice.
02:44:01 <elliott> i like 268 and 375 and probably 469
02:44:14 <elliott> and 125 falls under the shaming/mockery categroy
02:46:20 <monqy> "with quote, life"
02:46:25 <HackEgo> 595) <elliott> Dear god stop staring at me. <monqy> no never <Phantom_Hoover> monqy is always staring at everyone. <monqy> it takes many eyes to do this but I manage <Phantom_Hoover> He is an inspiration to us all.
02:46:30 <elliott> monqy: didnt you mean semicolon there
02:46:33 <shachaf> monqy: "do you like stroopwafels too"
02:46:43 <HackEgo> 586) <elliott> Vorpal: who needs cars when you can walk to latvia
02:46:46 <HackEgo> 739) <zzo38> When you die in Canada, you die in real life.
02:46:46 <monqy> shachaf: whats a stroopwafels
02:46:47 <HackEgo> 170) <calamari> I got a game in my cereal box and I want to run it lol
02:46:48 <HackEgo> 655) <elliott> Magnetic butterfly is slower than cat and restarting if you make a mistake is slower than vi is slower than mind-reading.
02:47:04 <shachaf> monqy: "its good, you like it"
02:47:46 <HackEgo> *poof* <calamari> I got a game in my cereal box and I want to run it lol
02:48:01 <HackEgo> 219) <fizzie> And to think: if only we wouldn't celebrate birthdays, there would be no birthday paradox, and we could get by with half as long hash functions. (What do you mean it doesn't work that way?)
02:48:12 <HackEgo> 312) <oklopol> and then there's the slightly annoying one where suddenly, i start rolling forward and i can't stop <oklopol> like i can be having some great sex dream or whatever and then suddenly "oh god not this again" <oklopol> (i go "not this again" but not necessarily realize it's a dream)
02:48:30 <HackEgo> 145) <AnMaster> cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here.
02:48:48 <HackEgo> 299) <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate.
02:48:50 <HackEgo> 170) <catseye> i like the feeling of freedom you get driving a bus
02:48:50 <HackEgo> 817) <Taneb> I don't even know set theory I haven't a clue what is going on <Taneb> wow got that 1 right
02:49:17 <elliott> monqy: were you around for cpressey/catseye/ZOMGMODULES visiting us regularly
02:49:25 <elliott> i fear you might have missed it and i'm so sorry for you
02:49:28 <monqy> ive seen ZOMGMODULES around but i dont think so :(
02:49:37 <monqy> i feel sorry for me too
02:49:48 <HackEgo> *poof* <Taneb> I don't even know set theory I haven't a clue what is going on <Taneb> wow got that 1 right
02:50:08 <shachaf> monqy: "if eel sor ryfory ou"
02:52:09 <HackEgo> 211) <Goosey> I can play crysis, but not minecraft?
02:52:12 <HackEgo> 265) <elliott> lol @ closed character set standard <elliott> "What does this codepoint represent?" "Nobody knows."
02:52:23 <HackEgo> 212) <zzo38> Maybe they should just get rid of Minecraft. If more people want it someone can make using GNU GPL v3 or later version, with different people, might improve slightly.
02:52:25 <HackEgo> 260) <fizzie> $ perl -e '/? <-- HERE/' Quantifier follows nothing in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/? <-- HERE <-- HERE/ at -e line 1.
02:52:26 <HackEgo> 93) <Warrigal> I seem to think of coaxial cables as being omnipotent somehow.
02:54:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ieo'': not found
02:54:10 <elliott> monqy: im going to have to do it arent i :(
02:54:28 <monqy> i'm debating between 211 and 93
02:54:34 <monqy> not fond of either
02:54:58 <HackEgo> *poof* <Goosey> I can play crysis, but not minecraft?
02:54:58 <monqy> by popular opinion
02:55:02 <elliott> we got rid of most of the early-quote crappiness
02:55:20 <HackEgo> 255) <oerjan> <Gregor> oerjan: Tell us what (a(b{c}d)*2e)%2 expands to <-- ababcdbcdedbabcdbcdede, i think <Gregor> oerjan: What - the - fuck
02:55:36 <HackEgo> 350) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup
02:55:39 <HackEgo> 490) <Taneb> Well, I'm now experimenting with clients <fizzie> It doesn't sound like good PR to say that out loud.
02:55:39 <HackEgo> 760) <fungot> elliott: to be honest, it doesn't exist in a state of almost perpetual stalemate, and expands to a larger board and more exotic collection of what he refers to as a thermal hull, instead of some kind of clock pun. no, dammit, will this breakfast injure his shrill, bearded, scraggly old men in space. jade's radioactive, omnipotent, space-warping dog named...
02:55:39 <HackEgo> 33) <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that.
02:55:45 <shachaf> `run function foo() { $(bin/quote | awk '{print $1 $2}'); }; echo $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo)
02:55:50 <HackEgo> bash: 462)<elliott>: command not found \ bash: 654)<monqy>: command not found \ bash: 476)<itidus20>: command not found \ bash: 641)<elliott>: command not found \ bash: 142)<Gregor>: command not found \
02:56:08 <elliott> 760 is fungot, and so sacrosanct
02:56:09 <fungot> elliott: bt ftw? :p. ugh i need to do the design as well,
02:56:21 <elliott> 33 is only there for the self-reference and it's crap but <traditional>
02:56:21 <shachaf> `run function foo() { bin/quote | awk '{print $1 " " $2}'; }; echo $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo)
02:56:25 <HackEgo> 730) <oklopol> 806) <ais523> 368) <GregorR> 91) <songhead95> 412) <elliott>
02:57:09 <monqy> but what is the quote
02:57:53 <shachaf> `run function foo() { bin/quote | awk '{print $1 " " $2 " " $3}'; }; echo $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo)
02:57:58 <HackEgo> 43) <Deewiant> I 106) <soupdragon> if 585) [from 2009] 474) <itidus20> It's 76) <Dylan> Warrigal
02:58:29 <shachaf> `run function foo() { bin/quote | awk '{print $1 " " $2 " " $3 " " $4 " " "hi monqy"}'; }; echo $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo)
02:58:35 <HackEgo> 661) <ais523\unfoog> Vorpal: your hi monqy 63) <Oranjer> oohhh <Oranjer> hi monqy 609) <ais523> isn't a hi monqy 686) <shachaf> You should hi monqy 196) <tswett> That is hi monqy
02:58:35 <tswett> I assume that by "it's" you mean "you're" and by "i" you mean "say 'i'".
02:58:44 <shachaf> <shachaf> You should hi monqy
02:59:02 <shachaf> `run function foo() { bin/quote | awk '{print $1 " " $2 " " $3 " " $4 " " "hi monqy"}'; }; echo $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo)
02:59:07 <HackEgo> 662) <Phantom_Hoover> Life expectancy hi monqy 583) <Taneb> Just goes hi monqy 194) <elliott> So it's hi monqy 344) <Phantom_Hoover> Scotland turns hi monqy 658) <zzo38> I am hi monqy
02:59:29 <shachaf> zzo38: No, *I* am hi monqy!
02:59:42 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3360153036711&l=6945039e9e I made myself a pin to commemorate this auspicious day.
03:00:17 <quintopia> Gregor: did you give it up for lent and then never stop
03:00:20 <shachaf> Our watch, sir, as you know, has comprehended two auspicious persons.
03:00:21 <elliott> Gregor: pls actually make that
03:00:30 <tswett> Gregor: hey, what's a version of Windows you hate?
03:00:39 <HackEgo> 618) <oerjan> i am sorry to disappoint you, but my musical taste is on the side abba, verdi, and celine dion. i know this may not be popular and that you would have preferred me to be a satanist.
03:00:40 <shachaf> `run function foo() { bin/quote | awk '{print $1 " " $2 " " $3 " " $4 " " "for elliott"}'; }; echo $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo)
03:00:41 <HackEgo> 662) <Phantom_Hoover> Life expectancy now is a function of whether you go berserk or not.
03:00:52 <HackEgo> 646) <coppro> clearly darth needs something gray and big and proving the uncountability of the reals
03:00:53 <HackEgo> 529) <Phantom_Hoover> I didn't realise nickel apparently can't be shaped into a screw because of some fundamental feature of dwarven physics.
03:00:53 <HackEgo> 248) <olsner> actually, I think vorpal is the "retarded team member" to the left
03:00:53 <HackEgo> 642) <Phantom_Hoover> You know for elliott 822) <zzo38> A lot for elliott 666) <oerjan> elliott: it for elliott 817) <tswett> ais523: well, for elliott 151) <oklopol> pigeons are for elliott
03:01:09 <tswett> That is why God invented the pigeon.
03:01:15 <elliott> ok i laughed at pigeons are for elliott
03:01:27 <shachaf> `run function foo() { bin/quote | awk '{print $1 " " $2 " " $3 " " $4 " " "the devil"}'; }; echo $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo)
03:01:31 <HackEgo> 238) bin canary karma lib maketext monqy paste quotes share wisdom quintopia sits the devil 120) <AnMaster> alise, marble the devil 741) <ais523> `delquote 419 the devil 679) <ais523> also, why the devil 75) <Warrigal> It's not the devil
03:01:32 <elliott> shachaf: can you stop we need to delete quotes!!!
03:01:35 <elliott> monqy: which should we delete
03:01:39 <Gregor> <tswett> Gregor: hey, what's a version of Windows you hate? // I only hate the versions that Microsoft was involved i.
03:01:45 <monqy> i cant see the quotes there's too much for elliott
03:02:02 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
03:02:14 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else
03:02:36 <shachaf> `run cat bin/quote | tail -n+5 | head -n5
03:02:39 <HackEgo> else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
03:02:46 <elliott> shachaf: stop you're making monqy's screen scroll!!!
03:02:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/grey tea
03:03:06 <shachaf> (I don't really pronounce it like that.)
03:03:49 <HackEgo> 238) * quintopia sits on gregor
03:03:51 <quintopia> that's totally how i pronounce "earl grey tea"
03:04:09 <tswett> quintopia: you pronounce it with a grave accent before it?
03:04:22 <HackEgo> 662) <Phantom_Hoover> Life expectancy now is a function of whether you go berserk or not.
03:04:36 <shachaf> `run function foo() { bin/quote | awk '{print $1 " " $2 " " $3 " " $4 " " "makes no sense"}'; }; echo $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo)
03:04:36 <tswett> I think we should delete quote 440.
03:04:41 <HackEgo> 659) <zzo38> Can you makes no sense 807) <shachaf> elliott: Apparently makes no sense 75) <Warrigal> It's not makes no sense 735) <Phantom_Hoover> Incest, the makes no sense 694) <oerjan> shachaf: wait, makes no sense
03:04:42 <HackEgo> 440) <SgeoN1> No nasty sounds for a while now. Going to turn off and on and see if the numbers get worse.
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03:05:03 <tswett> We should also delete quote 288.
03:05:04 <elliott> this round is disqualified!!!!
03:05:12 <monqy> aaaa too much words
03:05:13 <shachaf> `run function foo() { bin/quote | awk '{print $1 " " $2 " " $3 " " $4 " " "is disqualified!!!!"}'; }; echo $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo)
03:05:17 <elliott> tswett: stop! it'll get mixed into the quotes! you're all banned from quotes forever
03:05:26 <HackEgo> 328) <elliott> ais523: YOU WILL HAVE YOUR QUOTE SOON
03:05:29 <HackEgo> 91) <songhead95> think of all the starving kids in china who don't have rotting sea life to eat
03:05:32 <shachaf> monqy: mye game > youre game :'(
03:05:42 <quintopia> elliott: no more quoting or deleting. stop.
03:05:46 <HackEgo> 288) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mutation is often considerably harder for both humans and compilers can analyze it much more difficult' part that induces bloody vomit... huh....intriguing
03:05:47 <HackEgo> 75) <Warrigal> It's not incest if you're third cousins!
03:05:48 <HackEgo> 571) <fizzie> Isn't "strip nomic" just another word for all dating, though?
03:05:50 <HackEgo> 553) <Phantom_Hoover> Intake flooded is disqualified!!!! 259) <fizzie> $ perl is disqualified!!!! 399) <Sgeo> I used is disqualified!!!! 10) <reddit user "othermatt"> is disqualified!!!! 181) <fizzie> I don't is disqualified!!!!
03:05:53 <HackEgo> 5) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them.
03:06:01 <tswett> 288 is pretty nice. We should keep it.
03:06:15 <quintopia> Gregor: does hackego have any bombs you can set off
03:06:17 <shachaf> `run function foo() { bin/quote | awk '{print $1 " " $2 " " $3 " " $4 " " "is pretty good!!!!"}'; }; echo $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo)
03:06:22 <HackEgo> 104) <fax> okay I is pretty good!!!! 738) <oerjan> DeadlyFugu: the is pretty good!!!! 508) <monqy> the classic is pretty good!!!! 308) <lament> elliott: well is pretty good!!!! 23) IN AN ALTERNATE is pretty good!!!!
03:06:24 * shachaf needs to go in a couple of minutes.
03:06:47 <HackEgo> 777) <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM <olsner> before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory <fizzie> olsner: So what's this SDRAM then? <olsner> fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading
03:06:57 <HackEgo> 773) <fizzie> Quinary computers replace the cache with a quiche.
03:07:00 <HackEgo> 23) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerjan> In an alternate universe, I would say "In an alternate universe, ehird has taste"
03:07:01 <HackEgo> 429) <ais523> the thing about modern semiconductor design is, 0s are more powerful as 1s
03:07:44 <shachaf> `run function foo() { bin/quote | awk '{print $1 " " $2 " " $3 " " $4 " " "should be turned into a HackEgo command!"}'; }; echo $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo)
03:07:49 <HackEgo> 543) <monqy> game where should be turned into a HackEgo command! 285) <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, should be turned into a HackEgo command! 459) <NihilistDandy> The Russian's should be turned into a HackEgo command! 118) <fungot> AnMaster: to should be turned into a HackEgo command! 188) <oklopol> well i should be turned into a HackEgo command!
03:07:59 <shachaf> 285) <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, should be turned into a HackEgo command!
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03:09:56 <monqy> what are you doing
03:12:10 <HackEgo> 254) <xplat> so you have legacy software in befunge that needs supported?
03:12:12 <HackEgo> 337) <Cheery> [...] OOPS.. my cockfile got destroyed
03:12:16 <HackEgo> 826) <fungot> itidus21: hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, h
03:12:20 <HackEgo> 291) 00:07 Sgeo has quit (IRC is taking up too much of my time. I need time to study the Bible and find Christ.) 00:12 Sgeo has joined #esoteric.
03:12:25 <HackEgo> 444) <fizzie> The zipWith Camel, a famous World War 1 era airplane.
03:12:43 <quintopia> elliott: do you really need to keep spamming the channel with quotes :/
03:12:54 <kmc> ┌──────────────────────────────────────────────┐
03:12:57 <monqy> "at least it's better than shachaf's game"
03:12:57 <kmc> │ ＥＭＰＬＯＹＥＥ ＯＦ ＴＨＥ ＭＯＮＴＨ： │
03:13:12 <kmc> │ ｓｈａｃｈａｆ │
03:13:12 <kmc> └──────────────────────────────────────────────┘
03:13:12 <elliott> quintopia: it's our national op-endorsed past-time!
03:13:13 <elliott> but it stops if anyone talks about/wants to talk about esolangs
03:13:28 <monqy> complaining about `quote is close enough to talking about esolangs
03:14:24 <shachaf> `run function foo() { bin/quote | awk '{print $1 " " $2 " " $3 " " $4 " " "is hard. let's go shopping!"}'; }; echo $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo)
03:14:27 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
03:14:43 <shachaf> `run function foo() { bin/quote | awk '{print $1 " " $2 " " $3 " " $4 " " "is hard. let'\''s go shopping!"}'; }; echo $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo)
03:14:48 <HackEgo> 461) <elliott> God, I is hard. let's go shopping! 141) <alise> So basically is hard. let's go shopping! 553) <Phantom_Hoover> Intake flooded is hard. let's go shopping! 479) <monqy> cigaretes and is hard. let's go shopping! 721) <Phantom_Hoover> Just because is hard. let's go shopping!
03:15:36 <shachaf> `run function foo() { bin/quote | awk '{print $1 " " $2 " " $3 " " $4 " " " <----- that'\''s a terrible quote :'\''("}'; }; echo $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo) $(foo)
03:15:40 <HackEgo> 479) <monqy> cigaretes and <----- that's a terrible quote :'( 789) <ais523> bleh, why <----- that's a terrible quote :'( 660) <Ngevd> I'm neither <----- that's a terrible quote :'( 327) <oklofok> destroying a <----- that's a terrible quote :'( 818) <olsner> is tswett <----- that's a terrible quote :'(
03:16:25 <HackEgo> 818) <olsner> is tswett Warrigal?
03:16:34 <HackEgo> *poof* <olsner> is tswett Warrigal?
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03:22:57 <zzo38> Do you know how to work the Netplay on TGB-Dual without resulting in synchronization errors?
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03:56:12 <kmc> shachaf: apparently in some legacy encodings, a character is double-width iff it takes two bytes
03:59:53 <zzo38> kmc: I think that does make some sense
04:01:28 <elliott> That would explain the name.
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05:33:00 <zzo38> Can you prove that you have never been to the moon?
05:33:27 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
05:34:32 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 6 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
05:35:10 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 13 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
05:38:30 <zzo38> What is the farthest object you can examine by telescope?
05:43:32 <Patashu> depends how big the telescope is
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05:53:52 <shachaf> elliott: Want an EXCITING MATHEMATICAL PUZZLE?
05:54:07 <zzo38> I read an article in 2600 once where someone combined all the lenses for the telescope to watch the moon extremely closely
05:55:01 <shachaf> monqy: How many "8"s can you fit on a plane?
05:55:48 <monqy> 8s are too intangible to fit on a plane
05:56:36 <shachaf> monqy: Non-overlapping 8 shapes, where an 8 shape is two tangent circles.
05:57:40 <shachaf> Clearly you can fit ℵ_1 non-overlapping circles on a plane.
05:57:50 <shachaf> It's not so clear about 8s.
05:57:57 <monqy> that's not a number
06:00:03 <Sgeo> shachaf, is one of the circles allowed to have radius 0?
06:00:23 <monqy> if it has radius 0 it's not a circle is it
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06:56:54 <oklopol> i don't think i've ever had to pee this bad
06:57:18 <monqy> have you tried peeing
07:15:40 <zzo38> Let's see whether the government is putting any satellites there without everyone's knowledge of their existence and function and so on
07:22:13 <ion> monqy: YOU JUST CHANGED EVERYTHING. I AM IN TEARS OF JOY. THANK YOU.
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07:33:05 <itidus20> During the ceremony of joy, monqy was nowhere to be seen.
07:36:16 <zzo38> Did you sometimes eat your own blood?
07:40:28 <DHeadshot> Probably a bad time to return from AFK, if the last message is reflective of the conversation matter in general...
07:43:21 <ion> It is indeed.
07:44:27 <zzo38> Did you ever find the Higgs boson inside your computer?
07:46:40 <itidus20> http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/unplugged/warcraft-starcraft-invade-classic-board-games-194405691.html
07:48:11 <zzo38> Tomorrow I will be at Victoria. I like to go to Japanese restaurant.
07:49:12 <itidus20> fwiw i don't play wow myself and i don't think many here do to be honest
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08:43:08 <itidus20> this dithered image messes with my eyes http://www.artfulgamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/racover0001.png
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09:12:30 <pikhq> Hmm. Ordered dither.
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09:34:04 <impomatic> Did anyone ever play "Robot Battle" or "Mech Zone: Robot Battle II" on the Mac? I can't find much info about them...
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10:17:41 <itidus20> i just had a funny(fsvo funny) idea for a movie: a 2 hour film where you watch a slot machine. *imagine* a cinema full of people watching a slot machine on the big screen
10:20:28 <impomatic> Maybe with David Attenborough at a narrator. The behaviour of the slot machine in it's native habitat.
10:21:05 <itidus20> ooh. and an introduction by Morgan Freeman
10:22:45 <itidus20> the general idea would be that people would find the experience so excruciating and monotonous they would walk out after a few minutes
10:23:51 <itidus20> they would almost be suffocating from their need to press the buttons
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10:57:36 <Taneb> Had a maths exam this morning
10:57:40 <Taneb> It was surprisingly hard
10:58:38 <Taneb> The Core 2 module of OCR's A-level Maths qualification
11:00:26 <Taneb> It has trigonometry and logs
11:00:50 <Taneb> And binomial expansion, and arithmetic and geometric sequences
11:02:06 <impomatic> I hate intergration / differentiation :-(
11:02:38 <Taneb> Yeah, I can never remember whether you divide or multiply
11:02:44 <Taneb> Almost ended up doing both :/
11:04:57 <impomatic> I hate it because we got taught how to do it, but not why it works...
11:23:31 <Taneb> Okay, BSD3 license.
11:23:38 <Taneb> What if I don't have an organization!?
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12:27:30 <Taneb> What is this madness
12:31:22 <nortti> Taneb: täällä puhutaan suomea nykyään
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12:39:57 <ion> I wonder what the etymology of “joo” is?
12:41:25 <nortti> se liittyi jotenkin suomen eduskunnan äänestysjuttuun (tosin siinä taisi lukea jaa-9
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12:43:00 <ion> It originating from the Swedish “ja” is plausible, but what made the vowel change to “o”?
12:45:17 <nortti> drunken finnish? they almost always say o in place of a (at least what I have heard)
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13:26:25 <itidus21> why is it that irc channels are not endlessly swarmed by advertising bots?
13:27:04 <itidus21> oh.. is it the voice thing and stuff like that?
13:39:44 <oklopol> because ad bots are annoying and people do not do evil.
13:42:19 <itidus21> but in some non-irc chatrooms, where there is no moderators, there is a constant endless stream of ad bots
13:42:29 <itidus21> and there is even a captcha in the way
13:43:36 <itidus21> it just amazes me that it isn't a problem
13:46:23 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, because there's like no point in adbotting on IRC?
13:46:51 <Phantom_Hoover> If you spam websites you can get favourable results on search engines.
13:47:51 <itidus21> i think i see.. the other chatroom is simply a weak target for a small few bot operators
13:53:59 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, so why do they spam MediaWikis?
13:54:11 <Sgeo> I thought MediaWikis these days have no...something
13:55:26 <itidus21> maybe a mediawiki is also a weak target
13:58:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure, but you're far more likely to get links followed from a wiki than an IRC channel.
13:59:43 <itidus21> well i think ads in this sense would be just a general form of attack
14:00:41 <itidus21> and irc is good at staving off attack
14:02:05 <ion> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2113800/Metalworkers-cooked-death-inside-giant-Austrian-oven-door-closed-800C-furnace-accidentally-switched-on.html
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16:21:39 <elliott> how many messages do i have
16:21:39 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 27 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:21:59 <elliott> 17:21 <lambdabot> monqy asked 10h 47m 32s ago: you have elliptic linked to your account tomorrow
16:22:00 <elliott> 17:21 <lambdabot> monqy asked 10h 47m 29s ago: you have elliptic linked to your account tomorrow
16:22:01 <elliott> 17:21 <lambdabot> monqy asked 10h 47m 29s ago: you have elliptic linked to your account tomorrow
16:22:03 <elliott> 17:21 <lambdabot> monqy asked 10h 47m 28s ago: you have elliptic linked to your account tomorrow
16:22:05 <elliott> 17:21 <lambdabot> monqy asked 10h 47m 27s ago: you have elliptic linked to your account tomorrow
16:22:12 <elliott> 17:22 <lambdabot> Plugin `tell' failed with: thread killed
16:24:40 <elliott> 12:39:57: <ion> I wonder what the etymology of “joo” is?
16:25:12 <elliott> 13:26:25: <itidus21> why is it that irc channels are not endlessly swarmed by advertising bots?
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16:25:37 <elliott> although that shitty racist forum pops up in #haskell every now and then
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16:29:44 <elliott> well there's more flooding/trolling bots than ads i would say
16:29:50 <elliott> because nobody is going to click an ad
16:30:05 <elliott> go hang out on efnet if you want some anarchy
16:30:13 <ion> elliott: Why are you on this channel if you don’t know Finnish? :-(
16:30:32 <ion> http://translate.google.fi/#fi|en|joo
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16:30:37 <elliott> ion: trolling so that you enter a state in which u mad, at which point i will achieve enlightenment
16:31:04 <elliott> something something problem? something something y u no something over 9000 something
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16:32:43 <itidus21> everything went better than expected.
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16:42:52 <Taneb> elliott, I made some of the suggestions you made to Data.FamilyTree
16:43:06 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
16:43:07 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | ¦
16:43:07 <myndzi> /| /| |\ | /| /´\ /'\ | >\ /< ´¸¨
16:43:13 <Taneb> I decided to not change it to Lens FamilyTree (Maybe whatevs)
16:43:37 <Taneb> Because of the ID's being reallocated
16:44:35 <elliott> I'm not sure what the reallocation would affect.
16:44:44 <elliott> (But I think you shouldn't reallocate IDs.)
16:45:02 <elliott> (If you don't, then ID has a stronger semantic connection to the given whatevs.)
16:45:35 <elliott> (Another thing you can do with ID is give it a type parameter, so that it looks like "ID Foo -> Lens FamilyTree (Maybe Foo)", and you can't mix up IDs for different things.)
16:46:08 <Taneb> (I reallocate ID's for reasons of space, which helps when you're someone like me and make a lot of mistakes)
16:47:07 <elliott> Where does space come into it?
16:47:25 <Taneb> Well, there's at least 2^28 possible people, etc
16:47:57 <elliott> You shouldn't generally use Int unless you *know* it's limited.
16:48:19 <Taneb> If IntegerMap exists, I'll be happy to use it
16:48:24 <elliott> Well, HashMap Integer is probably just as good. But it's your program :P
16:48:32 <elliott> I know HashMap Int is about as fast (slightly faster?) than IntMap.
16:49:26 <elliott> You don't really have to do any of my suggestions, it's just that obviously how *I* would have done it is the objectively correct method.
16:52:09 -!- impomatic has joined.
16:52:43 <kmc> elliott understands IRC
16:53:04 <kmc> also, if someone asks how to do X, and you can't think of a use for X within about three seconds, it proves the person is an idiot
16:56:14 <shachaf> kmc: I think the other case (someone asks how to do X and it turns out that they're wrong) is much more common, so the bias isn't all that unreasonable.
16:56:33 -!- zzo38 has joined.
16:57:23 <shachaf> Also I think the attitude isn't so much "you're an idiot" as "the fact that I'm helping you on IRC for free doesn't mean my time is worthless; please don't make it difficult and unpleasant to do so".
17:01:29 <kmc> well XY problems really happen, yes
17:01:42 <kmc> but people are also very quick to jump to that conclusion
17:02:11 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120420145725]).
17:02:29 <elliott> About half of all questions asked in #haskell are an XY problem.
17:04:19 <kmc> if you're worried about other people wasting your time, it's probably better to stay quiet than to berate them for having an XY problem
17:04:32 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 6 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:04:37 <elliott> kmc: What if I'm worried about helping them?
17:04:55 <kmc> then wait for them to say more
17:05:04 <elliott> They never do, because they don't think they have an XY problem.
17:05:09 <elliott> They think they need to get Int out of IO Int.
17:05:14 <kmc> or ask "why do you want to do X" as opposed to "you shouldn't do X because I can't think of a reason for it"
17:05:25 <elliott> It's not really berating to ask for what they're really trying to do, and to tell them that they don't want to do what they think they do.
17:05:36 <elliott> (Except in very rare circumstances.)
17:05:49 <elliott> (But it's usually easy to tell whether such a circumstance could possibly apply to somebody based on how knowledgable they sound.)
17:06:29 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
17:09:10 -!- augur has joined.
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17:10:30 <shachaf> > zipWith3 if' [True, False, True, True, False] (repeat '0') (repeat '1') -- fun!
17:10:52 <shachaf> I've never actually used zipWith3 before. It's always been a theoretical thing.
17:10:57 <elliott> map (bool '0' '1') is shorter. :p
17:11:53 <elliott> @let bool False _ b = b; bool True a _ = a
17:12:12 <zzo38> I think that is wrong
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17:12:28 <elliott> Erm, map (bool '1' '0'), I mean.
17:12:30 <zzo38> bool x _ False = x; bool _ x True = x;
17:12:35 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
17:12:42 <elliott> Except flip the first two arguments.
17:12:54 <elliott> @let bool a b p = if p then a else b
17:13:02 <shachaf> > map (if' '0' '1') [True, false, True, True, False]
17:13:03 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `if''Not in scope: `false'
17:13:07 <elliott> > map (bool '0' '1') [False, False, True, True, False]
17:13:13 <elliott> shachaf: Wrong argument order.
17:14:08 <shachaf> @let if' n x y = if isPrime n then x else y
17:14:13 <elliott> Hmm, someone claiming that an edwardk package is too slow for their purposes.
17:15:25 <kmc> better `seq` unsafeDo# (some# unsafeOptimization#)
17:16:28 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:16:50 -!- Foggalong has joined.
17:17:09 * elliott considers joining #haskell-blah to tease edwardk about it.
17:17:23 -!- Foggalong has quit (Client Quit).
17:19:19 <shachaf> Are they calling it "an edwardk package"?
17:22:13 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:22:53 <elliott> Well, I knew it was before they even named it.
17:23:26 <ion> Based on what? It had no documentation?
17:24:24 <elliott> I just know these things, man.
17:24:34 <elliott> Also because I don't know of any other automatic differentiation packages for Haskell.
17:25:15 <elliott> "This month saw quite a lot of activity on StackOverflow, largely from user Clinton trying to puzzle through STM and other concurrency issues."
17:25:29 <elliott> If by "puzzle through" you mean "assert ridiculous theories about and ignore everyone who explains why they're wrong", sure.
17:41:03 -!- nooga has joined.
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17:55:44 <zzo38> Do you like the prelude-generalize-0.3.1?
17:57:31 <Taneb> I was just thinking of making something like that!
17:58:45 <zzo38> Something like...?
17:58:52 <Taneb> prelude-generalize
17:59:12 <zzo38> Well, now there already is.
17:59:35 <zzo38> Tell me if you have a comment about it, thing to add and so on
18:00:15 <Taneb> Is AaronBlack you?
18:00:44 <oerjan> "By using terahertz radiation, researchers from the Tokyo Institute of Technology (Suzukakedai campus pictured) set a new record for wireless data transmission speed."
18:01:25 <oerjan> the rumors of mutated researchers are completely unfounded.
18:04:24 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes that is my name.
18:05:36 <Taneb> It looks pretty good!
18:07:43 <zzo38> Lists and LogicT are MonadLogic, but so is StateT s [] and so on, so the generalized versions of tail and so on can be used with that too.
18:09:37 <Taneb> It could do with a bit more documentation, I think. But that's just me
18:09:58 <zzo38> You may be correct about that.
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18:19:13 <Taneb> zzo38, have you seen family-tree ?
18:19:46 <zzo38> Taneb: OK I am looking now
18:20:13 <oklopol> how much boob would a noob loop poop if a noop loop could whoopadoop?
18:20:55 <Taneb> a noob loop wouldn't poop any boob as the ability to whoopadoop does not correlate in any way with the ability to boob.
18:21:00 <zzo38> I do not understand the question.
18:22:37 <zzo38> I don't know why you would need to use (LogicT Identity) for anything (other than its existence), since it is like [], but LogicT can be used as a kind of list monad transformer with the monad being transformed going between the list elements
18:23:01 <Taneb> zzo38, also, suggestion: (?) :: Bool -> x -> x -> x (like Bool)
18:24:04 <zzo38> Taneb: No, it is infix operation
18:24:41 <Taneb> response ? "yes" $ "no"
18:25:40 <zzo38> The way I have it you can do response ? ("no", "yes") but also with things other than booleans; see the class QuestionMarkOp
18:25:57 <Taneb> Ah, didn't see that
18:27:38 <zzo38> There appears to be no way to actually call idQMO, although it is mathematically correct as far as I can tell
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19:34:01 <elliott> http://nekogames.jp/g.html?gid=PRM
19:37:17 <Gregor> Well, who needs Diablo III?
19:37:35 <elliott> i don't even understand what i'm doing but i can't stop playing!!!
19:39:26 <Gregor> The game is so much better once you remove those pesky plot, strategy and graphics aspects.
19:39:56 <elliott> apparently you need to fill that blue bar up to unlock things... taht seems difficult
19:45:01 <elliott> I shouldn't have unlcoked that tough guy.
19:45:22 <Gregor> No, you need the key to unlock things ...
19:45:32 <elliott> Oh. So that was the only thing I could have unlocked?
19:45:42 <elliott> Should have gone for 80/80 or something.
19:46:08 <Gregor> How the heck did you get to the point that you could even kill this 32/32 wuss >_>
19:46:31 <elliott> Gregor: When you finished a 100% thing, click it a bunch and you get money.
19:46:39 <elliott> Then click the sword / armour things with prices on them.
19:46:50 <elliott> You can also distribute your stats with the [+] button at the top.
19:46:59 <elliott> After that it's just a matter of pressing it a bunch.
19:47:17 <elliott> Mind you, I can't kill this 58/58 thing :(
19:47:31 <Gregor> Oh, I only upped my sword and armor once.
19:47:33 <Gregor> I guess I just need more.
19:49:07 <elliott> I like how money is non-scarce.
19:49:10 <pikhq_> Yowza. Facebook IPO'd today. Opening at $38, presently trading at $38.01.
19:49:39 <kmc> pikhq_: and Zynga's down 15.7%
19:51:30 <elliott> I think 36 is easier than 32, maybe.
19:51:58 * elliott is giving himself carpal tunnel to raise $860 for more hurty-things power.
19:52:10 <ion> elliott: Nice game.
19:52:14 <elliott> The objective of the game is to complete it before your hands become too mangled to play.
19:52:19 <ion> elliott: name.
19:52:36 <Gregor> There are at least three 36en.
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19:53:02 <elliott> I defeated the rightmost 36! \o/
19:53:26 <elliott> Still not quite good enough for 108.
19:55:24 <Gregor> You mean the locked 36?
19:55:35 <elliott> The tall one at the right that's locked.
19:56:00 <elliott> Oooh, so close to defeating 108.
19:58:06 <elliott> Gregor: What letters have you got
19:59:29 <Gregor> Oooh, I have a gold key.
19:59:55 <ais523> beautiful: tdwtf discussion about why most cronds don't have a field for year, zzo38 turns up and recommends sdate as a workaround
20:00:30 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:10:33 <elliott> Gregor: Whoa, 390 hits hard.
20:10:55 -!- qfr has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:11:22 <Gregor> Same way I stopped using the tongue-face smiley.
20:15:25 <elliott> Gregor: But there's slot machines!
20:16:31 <Taneb> There's also slot machines in Pokmon Emerald
20:17:47 -!- MoALTz has joined.
20:21:16 <elliott> Taneb: Play http://nekogames.jp/g.html?gid=PRM!
20:28:29 <elliott> Gregor: I now have $15630 :D
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20:34:12 <quintopia> shit that's more money than i have
20:34:26 <Gregor> quintopia: That's Zimbabwe dollars.
20:34:53 <quintopia> Gregor: then how come it has a $ and not a ZWD
20:35:04 <elliott> $ is the dollar sign, dude.
20:35:29 <quintopia> yes, and when you see it, you assume USD, and if that's not possible then CAD and then AUD respectively
20:35:38 <quintopia> you never assume a currency that no longer exists
20:37:29 <elliott> Gregor: Most of the late-game consists of repeatedly hitting the slot machine until it turns up 777.
20:37:35 <elliott> Then you get a lot of cash.
20:37:59 <elliott> (It spits out a bunch of $777s.)
20:38:34 <Gregor> elliott: You THINK it's the late game. But when you finally kill the big monster at the bottom, it'll just advance you to level 2.
20:38:45 <elliott> I already spoiled myself as to what comes next :P
20:38:51 <elliott> It's a big boss with 999 HP.
20:38:58 <elliott> Then that reveals a boss with 9999 HP.
20:41:04 <elliott> GOD the combo bar is impossible to fill up.
20:41:49 <elliott> Well, I defeated that boss.
20:43:13 <elliott> Parameters cleared in 73:35:74 yaaaaay
20:44:38 <elliott> Not quite tough enough to defeat the big bad yet :(
20:47:43 <elliott> Gregor: http://ompldr.org/vZHN2eQ
20:48:05 <elliott> I'm not done yet, though. Oh no.
20:48:15 <elliott> I must discover the remainin two ?s, and exhaust the remaining power-up things.
20:49:06 <elliott> ais523: remind me never to complain about games again
20:49:31 <elliott> I clearly have no taste in them
20:50:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://nekogames.jp/g.html?gid=PRM
20:50:13 <ais523> wow, is it really possible to talk on IRC over dbus?
20:50:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Click "English". Then click plya.
20:50:22 <ais523> what a pointless thing to be able to do
20:50:24 <elliott> Finding out the rules is part of the game!
20:50:25 <ais523> (I said that line over dbus)
20:50:46 <ais523> KDE seem to have a policy of exposing commands in their applications over dbus by default
20:50:57 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: It's Diablo III for reductionists.
20:51:07 <elliott> ais523: inherited from the kcop stuff, I think
20:51:31 <ais523> so why doesn't KDE have a standard way of requesting the URL of the focused tab / all open tabs?
20:53:10 <ais523> at this rate I'm going to have to come up with an API myself and patch it into EVERY LINUX PROGRAM IN EXISTENCE
20:54:44 * impomatic is trying Scalatron http://scalatron.github.com (Scala robot programming game)
21:04:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How are you doing???
21:04:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I've run out of keys and I'm using up all my life too fast to kill anything.
21:05:27 <Taneb> I've ran out of keys and things to kill
21:05:32 <elliott> Erm, why aren't you doing the missions?
21:05:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have you been upping your stats?
21:05:45 <elliott> That's what the [+] buttons do.
21:06:02 <elliott> Taneb: Yours too, perhaps.
21:06:19 <elliott> You can get money by clicking completed missions, btw.
21:06:29 <elliott> I think it'd be hard to get the game into a completely unwinnable state.
21:08:20 <elliott> Well, that's why I asked for a screenshot :P
21:09:37 <elliott> Taneb: The game isn't randomised, it's the same for everyone ;)
21:09:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It's impossible to get the game to an unwinnable state.
21:09:50 <elliott> I dunno, is the key-for-money thing always available?
21:09:58 <elliott> I thought it was locked by a key or such.
21:10:50 <Taneb> I don't remember unlocking it
21:11:33 <Taneb> (what do the letters at the top mean?)
21:11:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Well OK, it might be possible to do it by overextending hugely during the early game.
21:11:47 <elliott> I don't think they do anything.
21:11:57 <elliott> Except make you feel good about collecting them.
21:14:55 <Phantom_Hoover> How are you meant to get the blocks with the question marks in them?
21:15:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They unlock; I'm not sure what unlocks them, but as you level up and do stuff they appear; they're generally one-time stat boost things you can click.
21:15:36 <elliott> I haven't unlocked the last few, though (got tired of hitting the slot machine over and over; will go back to it later).
21:16:20 <elliott> Taneb: Phantom_Hoover: One of you should try filling up the combo meter, since I'm terrible at it. :p
21:16:42 <elliott> The slot machine is one of the ?s that gets unlocked.
21:16:50 <elliott> The combo meter is the meter below the ACT/DEF line.
21:16:53 <elliott> Fills the width of the screen.
21:17:10 <elliott> You need to pump up RCV a ton, then use the ACT. ++ block a bunch to raise your ACT.
21:17:23 <elliott> Then you click a completed mission, get some of the gold (doesn't matter how much), and click it again before it expires.
21:17:44 <elliott> I have 100 ACT and 222 RCV and even I'm not good enough to fill it.
21:18:57 <elliott> But it's probably easier if you have a mouse, rather than a touchpad.
21:19:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Ohhh, you mean the incredibly thin black bar that fills with dark blue?
21:19:29 <elliott> Heh, my game clock has rolled over to 99:99:99.
21:20:33 <elliott> Awwww, I was so close to filling the combo bar.
21:22:09 <elliott> None of them are behind gold keys, so.
21:23:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and completing missions too, I think.
21:23:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Argh, apparently at least one of the ?s is unlocked by filling the combo meter..
21:24:30 <elliott> Oh, the good news is that you don't have to worry about collecting gold when doing it, because some of it hits your cursor by chance...
21:25:48 <elliott> But I filled the combo bar.
21:26:06 <elliott> It gives you $200 * how many levels you are.
21:26:16 <elliott> That's not all that much by my standards. :(
21:26:34 <elliott> But at least I only need one more click to max out the $3558 armour power-up...
21:26:44 <elliott> An there's only one ? left.
21:28:28 <elliott> Filling the combo bar again does nothing. :(
21:29:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: By the way, if you find out what getting *** on the slot machine does, let me know.
21:29:48 <elliott> A bunch of $800s. Not bad!
21:30:04 <elliott> One click on the final power-up box unlocked the final ?.
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21:32:58 <elliott> Not as much as 777, I think (because that gives you more of them).
21:34:51 <elliott> Only 6 power-ups to go before I can rest my weary mind...
21:36:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK, why did nobody warn humanity about things like this?
21:37:21 <elliott> I mean, Orwell was all "hey guys don't become a totalitarian surveillance state" but did he say one bit about hollow, addicting RPGs???
21:41:17 <elliott> Right as I go to upload the image of me having won, my browser crashes.
21:41:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The 999 HP one, or the 9999 HP one?
21:41:45 <elliott> I guess the 999 HP one isn't exactly final.
21:42:04 <elliott> Oh, yeah, there's a bit more than that.
21:42:12 <elliott> Screenshot you're game and I'll tell you what's left to do.
21:42:15 <elliott> (It's not much more than that, though.)
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21:42:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's not the end.
21:43:09 <Taneb> I really suck at this, it seems
21:43:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That'll be the combo one, or the all-powerups one.
21:43:23 <elliott> But that isn't what you need to do to unlock the final boss.
21:43:45 <elliott> Once you kill the 9999 boss, you just have to buy every power-up (that means at least once from each, not the whole 9 from each) to unlock the final ?.
21:44:00 <elliott> Or if you already have, then it's the combo one; get your ACT and RCV up and just keep clicking one of the finished missions.
21:44:24 <elliott> (I used the 100% one that's one left from the $860 x9 weapon power-up.)
21:44:28 <elliott> Anyway, http://ompldr.org/vZHN3cA.
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21:50:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Can I see a screenshot? Or at least all your current stats?
21:50:53 <elliott> For me, I didn't really have to up anything; I just changed my tactic.
21:51:06 <elliott> You regain health faster than the boss, so just keep an eye on your life meter, and only hit when it's >= a certain value.
21:51:19 <elliott> So hit when you're >= 60 health, wait until it regains, hit again, and so on.
21:51:34 <elliott> But if you can afford them, just buy a bunch of the power-ups.
21:51:48 <elliott> 150 life is more than I had when defeating the boss.
21:51:56 <elliott> You might want to up defences.
21:52:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have you used the ATK. x2 box yet?
21:52:13 <elliott> I guess so, since it's higher than all your other stats.
21:52:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh yeah, and the $200 Add Parm. box is useful.
21:52:29 <elliott> If you have a lot of money, just spam it and you get one stat point per $200.
21:54:00 <elliott> That counts as winning, according to the start screen. But I'm weird, so I had to buy all 9 of every power-up to be happy.
21:54:57 <elliott> What *is* last? They all have different criteria. I keep asking for a screenshot for a reason.
21:56:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: At least tell me where it is?
21:57:53 <elliott> That's the combo one. Just click a completed mission fast for ages until the combo bar fills up.
21:58:06 <elliott> I used the wide one to the left of $860 x9 weapon in the top-left.
21:58:10 <elliott> Don't worry about picking up the gold.
22:04:22 <elliott> @ask monqy 23:04 <Sojiko> Yeah, Meph is a workhorse spell, you spam it at almost everything.
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22:44:06 <ais523> wow, I just saw a TV advert for IE9
22:44:16 * ais523 wonders why people go around advertising browsers
22:50:43 <nortti> because some people use different browser than IE and microsoft doesn't like that
22:52:34 <nortti> I finnished my CPU design few minutes ago. It is RISC style stack machine with conditional execution bit.
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22:58:35 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:58:53 <monqy> what a message :'(
23:03:10 <elliott> 17:22 <lambdabot> monqy asked 10h 46m 57s ago: you have elliptic linked to your account tomorrow
23:03:10 <elliott> 17:22 <lambdabot> monqy asked 10h 46m 56s ago: you have elliptic linked to your account tomorrow
23:03:10 <elliott> 17:22 <lambdabot> monqy asked 10h 46m 56s ago: you have elliptic linked to your account tomorrow
23:03:12 <elliott> 17:22 <lambdabot> monqy asked 10h 46m 54s ago: you have elliptic linked to your account tomorrow
23:03:14 <elliott> 17:22 <lambdabot> Plugin `tell' failed with: thread killed
23:03:16 <elliott> i didn't get all of your messages
23:03:24 <elliott> (there were more before that though)
23:03:50 <monqy> you missed all of the exciting variations
23:03:52 -!- nortti_ has joined.
23:03:54 <monqy> things that weren't that
23:04:01 <monqy> there was so much message excitement
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23:12:26 <nortti_> who was it here who was going to build his/her own computer architecture?
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01:25:42 <elliott> Patashu: do you wanna see what a scroll of acquirement gave me after under 4000 turns of play in crawl light
01:25:47 <elliott> p - the +23 crystal plate mail of Inaction (worn) {rPois Acc+2 Dam+2}
01:26:16 <monqy> iirc st_ got a pretty good artefact cpa the other day in regular crawl too
01:26:17 <elliott> my AC is 54, along with my +1 helmet and +0 cloak and +0 boots
01:26:21 <monqy> maybe it was someone else thouugh
01:26:33 <monqy> and it might hav been on a robin
01:26:41 <elliott> (crawl light doesn't buff acquirement or whatever (except that you can see what you'll get before deciding so i didn't just say "hey gimme armour"))
01:26:54 <monqy> that's actually a real big acq buff
01:27:02 <elliott> it doesn't buff the actual generation
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01:33:47 <elliott> Patashu: my EV only just now hit 6 though
01:34:00 <monqy> not that it matters for you at the moment
01:34:18 <elliott> _You see here a serpentine rune of Zot.
01:34:18 <elliott> _You can't carry that many items.
01:34:32 <monqy> remember how runes used to be actual items that you carried in your inventory
01:35:08 <elliott> Patashu: also I just got my first rune \o/
01:35:24 <elliott> Light, but "Light" doesn't mean "easier"
01:35:40 <elliott> Light just means "no hunger and no curses and no stupid identification game"
01:35:48 <elliott> and i'm playing DD because i also want "no regen over time"
01:36:06 <monqy> you're not playing on hard mode
01:36:20 <monqy> you're playing on medium mode. hasn't hard mode not been fully implemented yet?
01:36:29 <monqy> you only opened the first pandoora!
01:36:31 <elliott> harder than the baseline mode
01:36:36 <elliott> monqy: i'm going to open the second!!!
01:36:44 <elliott> when you open it the game gets harder
01:37:06 <elliott> the portal to the first pandoora is randomly generated
01:37:11 <elliott> second pandoora is at the end of the hive if you opened the first pandoora
01:39:40 <elliott> Patashu: if you want to see pandoora-hive you can watch me i'll probably go there next
01:40:49 <elliott> 02:40 <Satonakaja> easymode hive has PHAT LOOT liek swords or books or someting
01:40:49 <elliott> 02:40 <Satonakaja> if you open the first pandoora, hive will only have potions and the second pandoora when dtsund implements it
01:40:49 <elliott> 02:40 <Satonakaja> but as of now all it is is a normal stone soup hive
01:40:52 <elliott> ok it probably won't be that interesting
01:40:57 <elliott> Patashu: oh it's telnet light.bitprayer.com
01:41:38 <monqy> 18:41:05 < quairlzr> Satonakaja: you missed it
01:41:39 <monqy> 18:41:10 < quairlzr> both doors are in now
01:48:15 <elliott> i accidentally read tele and now i'm trapped by deep water
01:48:22 <elliott> and reading tele again just put me in the same place
01:48:36 <monqy> you have wands right
01:48:56 <monqy> or you can use digging to get around the water if that isn't the level boundary
01:48:59 <monqy> digging doesn't cut wax
01:49:01 <monqy> disint and fire do
01:50:15 <elliott> i guess what i have is better
01:50:38 <Patashu> that's something normal crawl needs
01:50:47 <Patashu> isn't it different in crawl light
01:51:00 <elliott> You open the killer bee like a pillowcase!!!
01:51:20 <elliott> a less shitty anti-magic axe
01:51:51 <elliott> wow i see why they removed hive
01:51:51 <monqy> Patashu: light uses glow instead of food for spell/invo/evo/etc costs so it's more important to have precise glow information
01:51:59 <elliott> yeah i think they removed hive because it was too easy
01:52:12 <monqy> and because it's just boring
01:52:20 <monqy> a level full of bees and only bees, "seriously?"
01:52:49 <Patashu> a bee with 100 speed, haste and swiftness
01:52:53 <elliott> actually enchant some stuff some da
01:53:24 <monqy> don't bother ehcnating stuff you're not going to use; you aren't in any shortage of ac/whatever
01:53:47 <monqy> you're fine off with what you have there too
01:54:03 <monqy> and you might find something really cool like a vampiric axe
01:54:09 <elliott> _Found the -5 chain mail of Agoraphobia {+Inv Acc+3}.
01:55:29 <monqy> either a secret door or you can burn/disint it
01:56:03 <monqy> or dig it since it's rock
01:56:29 <monqy> maybe you will find a door
01:56:38 <monqy> the rock that's not listed as unnaturally hard
01:58:21 <elliott> 02:58 <quairlzr> that's a bee castle
01:59:40 <Patashu> grind a teletrap until you tele past it?
02:01:20 <elliott> Patashu: oh it actually is
02:02:49 <elliott> Patashu: join #crawllight btw
02:11:07 <monqy> 18:59:40 < Patashu> grind a teletrap until you tele past it?
02:11:15 <monqy> there's no_tele_into
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03:55:31 <shachaf> kmc: Does "heard" even have any vowels?
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06:31:26 <elliott> Patashu: how do you kill boris
06:54:44 <Sgeo> elliott, how do you pronounce the name of the letter z?
06:55:16 <Sgeo> I have not even heard of it being pronounced zed until a few minutes ago
06:55:22 <elliott> zed is the standard british pronunciation
06:55:23 <Sgeo> Reading some Internet Oracularities
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07:13:06 <Sgeo> ...And I call myself a Stargate Atlantis fan
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07:28:25 <Sgeo> The Internet Oracle is a few months younger than I am
07:29:31 <shachaf> The "zee/zed" thing stops me from using x and y as variables. :-(
07:29:39 <shachaf> I'm always nervous. What if z comes next?!
07:30:24 <shachaf> And then after z it's a real problem.
07:30:33 <shachaf> w is my least favorite English letter, by the way.
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08:02:22 <elliott> Patashu: you should help me not die
08:02:26 <elliott> in a more helpful manner than monqy
08:02:49 <monqy> Patashu: you wouldn't believe how hard it was to get elliott to use a vamp battleaxe on a ddbe!!
08:03:07 <shachaf> elliott: Can I help you not die?
08:03:40 <elliott> Patashu: i'm dying lots because of hell fiends and other nasty things
08:04:04 <elliott> i think i'm carrying three of them
08:04:15 <elliott> monqy: should i be carrying these runes
08:04:24 <monqy> no they're wasted inventory space
08:04:30 <monqy> stash them or something once you get a chance
08:05:29 <elliott> i guess i won't bother with elf:3
08:05:34 <elliott> Patashu: how scary is zot:1
08:06:23 <monqy> elliott's char is op so it should be easy
08:06:51 <Patashu> I think zot:1 is easier than vaults:8
08:06:55 <Patashu> because it has less shit and a less open layout
08:07:01 <Patashu> that doesn't mean the monsters in it are trivial
08:07:12 <monqy> elf end is also commonly considered easier than v8!!!
08:07:27 <monqy> i usually just don't do elf though
08:07:37 <monqy> the only good level is the ending and the rest is ugh
08:07:51 <monqy> that's because you goofed it
08:08:08 <elliott> is that throwing net useful for anything at this point in the game
08:09:52 <elliott> is that enough scrolls for zot:1
08:10:51 <elliott> i have no idea how to use these rods
08:10:57 <elliott> but i have a feeling it's pointless taking them to zot
08:13:28 <elliott> V - a +5 rod of summoning (10/10)
08:13:28 <elliott> Z - a +3 rod of destruction [lightning,iron,fireball] (10/10)
08:13:32 <elliott> Patashu: should i take these to zot
08:14:00 <Patashu> if you end up not needing them just drop them
08:16:05 <elliott> The chilling blast hits you!
08:16:05 <elliott> _Two of your 12 potions of healing freeze and shatter!
08:16:13 <elliott> is everything on zot:1 cold or something
08:16:23 <elliott> and i've seen an ice dragon
08:16:27 <elliott> is anything firey on zot:1
08:16:36 <Patashu> and whichever draconian colour is fire
08:16:50 <elliott> how are you meant to resist all this crap
08:16:53 <Patashu> drac annihlators do every element I think
08:17:03 <Patashu> swap to one pip of rF and one pip of rC
08:17:12 <Patashu> when you see something you know only does one (like an orb of fire) you can swap to 2 of it
08:17:12 <monqy> you don't look like you're having trouble
08:17:37 <elliott> monqy: well my scrolls are all catching fire
08:17:42 <elliott> and this draconian refuses to walk up to me
08:17:52 <elliott> shit why do i have all these scrolls with me
08:20:15 <elliott> all my scrolls gone apart from tele
08:20:26 <elliott> only one scroll of blinking left in the game and it's not mine
08:21:54 <elliott> i should just get the orb and be happy with the runes i have i guess
08:22:36 <elliott> why is this black draconian red
08:24:52 <elliott> Patashu: how do you kill orbs of fire
08:26:14 <Patashu> and don't die to mutations
08:26:29 <monqy> Patashu: are you sure
08:26:38 <monqy> Patashu: remember light reverted haste nerf
08:26:47 <Patashu> they're 200% speed in crawl light?
08:27:26 <elliott> how dumb is berking an orb of fire
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08:28:30 <Patashu> if crawl light has the op version of berk
08:28:50 <elliott> You slice the orb of fire!!
08:29:34 <elliott> Wait a moment, elliott! Do you really want to walk there?
08:32:52 <elliott> did you see the part where all my scrolls got destroyed
08:34:48 <monqy> elf3 for conservation!!!
08:35:11 <elliott> would elf:3 have conservation?
08:39:30 <elliott> this is the problematic situation
08:39:37 <elliott> i guess i need to kill the conjurer fast
08:39:50 <elliott> hopefully you can see the problem
08:41:24 <monqy> are you letting them all hit you at once
08:41:26 <monqy> oops don't do that!
08:41:44 <elliott> to kill the ones that summon the awful demons first
08:42:06 <monqy> might want to use the vamp axe some too
08:42:11 <monqy> your hp is getting a dear bit low!!
08:42:27 <elliott> do you have any suggestions
08:42:34 <monqy> don't do whatever you did
08:43:42 <elliott> ok it might finally go well for once since I got rid of the high priest
08:45:50 <elliott> now it's all going terribly :(
08:47:26 <monqy> oh yeah don't fight like that jeez
08:47:36 <elliott> you'd have saw how i got into this situation :P
08:49:50 <monqy> oh dear what happened to you
08:50:38 <elliott> I think I'll probably die in the next few turns and there's a bunch of stuff between me and the stairs, so I guess it's hopeless.
08:51:39 <elliott> I suppose I could read tele, but I have a sneaking suspicion I wouldn't survive to see the other side of it.
08:53:00 <elliott> monqy: Anyway, suggestions welcome.
08:53:33 <monqy> most danger about tele is in teleporting into the vault
08:54:14 <elliott> I would say the most danger is the fact that I had a lot more than 45 HP last turn and so am probably going to have a lot less than it next turn...
08:54:48 <monqy> about tele specificially
08:55:46 <monqy> see look you didn't die
08:56:15 <elliott> Just wait 'til I get back there...
08:56:47 <elliott> Lightning and crystal spear.
08:57:04 <elliott> I can't exactly stop things casting spells at me when I'm walking up to them.
08:57:17 <monqy> hint: don't walk up to them
08:57:43 <elliott> monqy: I had nowhere to duck and if I just sat there the same would happen.
08:57:58 <monqy> maybe find somewhere to duck
08:58:09 <monqy> or move such that you have somewhere to duck
08:58:25 <elliott> i.e., run away along the corridor, during which time the same would have happened.
08:58:59 <elliott> You occasionally shout uncontrollably.
08:59:04 <elliott> Apparently I got another mutation while I wasn't looking.
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09:00:48 <elliott> That corridor is going to have the exact same situation in it as it did last time I was in it, so I'm really not sure what my options are.
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09:09:46 <elliott> monqy: ok, how *are* you meant to handle deep elf demonologists when there are no corridors you can get to without traversing terrain with a bunch of elves that will kill you
09:10:56 <monqy> i don't know how that happened to you!!
09:11:20 <elliott> Simple; I retreated from other stuff back here, and there was a deep elf demonologist.
09:11:42 <elliott> I couldn't retreat backwards since that'd put me back into the stuff I was retreating from, so I walked up to it to kill it before it could summon anything, but it was too quick.
09:13:58 <elliott> Anyway, I don't know what to do at this point.
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09:18:43 <elliott> Patashu: You should save me.
09:20:15 <elliott> Patashu: light.bitprayer.com
09:21:02 <elliott> i'm still losing like 20, 30 hp per turn
09:21:25 <elliott> the 57 ac really isn't a panacea
09:21:36 <Patashu> shrug, you still want to tele
09:21:53 <elliott> except there's elves down there
09:22:22 <elliott> think i'll just get the hell out
09:22:50 <Patashu> 57 ac doesn't help against everything
09:22:54 <Patashu> but it sure as fuck helps against execs
09:23:11 <elliott> ugh i suppose i should just go to zot
09:23:20 <elliott> since there's obviously no way i'll survive a 15-runer
09:23:34 <Patashu> (torment torment torment torment smite)
09:24:26 <elliott> i think i'm too shit a player to survive is what i meant
09:24:36 <Patashu> trog wrath is kind of hard to deal with
09:24:41 <Patashu> though with no hunger you could scummily deal with it
09:25:42 <elliott> what's so bad about trog wrath for a character like me?
09:25:46 <elliott> i can kill pretty much any melee monster
09:25:55 <elliott> it's spellcasters that beat me down
09:26:02 <Patashu> getting surrounded by 20 zerk stone giants and bears is kind of hard to deal with
09:26:47 <Patashu> corridor with something like a rat blocking you in
09:26:59 <Patashu> then 5 until trog is mollified
09:27:06 <elliott> monqy: tell Patashu he's awful
09:27:13 <monqy> Patashu: you're awful
09:27:36 <monqy> Patashu: did you see elliott doing crypt
09:28:50 <elliott> i could probably take crypt now
09:29:02 <elliott> Patashu: do you want to see me die in crypt
09:29:06 <monqy> elliott: so are you converting or not, and are you still planning on allruning
09:29:21 <elliott> i doubt i'll all-rune without converting
09:29:51 <Patashu> it's technically possible but lol, torment
09:29:59 <elliott> who are the viable ddbe extended game gods then
09:30:14 <monqy> makhleb is like tso but makhleb instead of tso
09:30:31 <elliott> what does makhleb offer over trog
09:30:35 <Patashu> if you're going to convert you may as well convert to tso
09:30:41 <Patashu> makhleb offers: healing on kills, ???
09:32:10 <monqy> tso offers healing on evil kills, which is pretty much 100% of extended
09:32:15 <monqy> also holy branding
09:32:20 <monqy> and angels and stuff
09:32:21 <Patashu> holy helps more than vampiric in end game
09:32:24 <Patashu> since vampiric doesn't work on demons
09:32:29 <Patashu> while holy gives 75% damage boost
09:32:35 <Patashu> tso gives you cleansing flame
09:32:38 <Patashu> which is good at high invo
09:32:41 <monqy> and if you rely on trog's hand for healing you will exhaust your piety megaquickly
09:32:43 <elliott> what does makhleb offer over trog for extended, I'm confused
09:33:04 <elliott> tso seems like a pain because
09:33:16 <elliott> doesn't it get angry at you if you do $stuff
09:33:33 <monqy> tso isn't as uptight about stuff you do to demons
09:33:41 <elliott> anyway if i'm going to convert i guess it should be before i finish off crypt?
09:33:48 <monqy> worst it'd affect you is you can't use your vamp or draining weapons
09:33:59 <Patashu> yes, you'd have to grind with a different weapon
09:34:03 <Patashu> until you get holy branding
09:34:30 <Patashu> well, you'd be holy branding it anyway
09:34:49 <elliott> i don't know if hp on evil kills would be enough
09:35:19 <monqy> vamp won't help you in extended
09:35:25 <monqy> except on the rare living thing
09:35:28 <monqy> like ice dragons in coc
09:36:03 <elliott> Patashu: btw is hall of blades as horrible as they say
09:36:19 <Patashu> it depends on your character
09:36:25 <Patashu> but pretty much everything there is faster than a normal speed char
09:36:28 <Patashu> there are lots of reaching weapons
09:36:32 <Patashu> and an unlucky brand might fuck you up
09:36:39 <Patashu> if you have good escape mechanisms blade is ok
09:37:25 <elliott> what about if you have crappy escape mechanisms but 57 AC
09:38:43 <elliott> idk i just want to put off the decision of converting to another god
09:38:46 <elliott> be somewhere without spellcasters
09:38:54 <Patashu> (uniques can appear in blade)
09:39:34 <elliott> 10:39 <Henzell> hall of blades[6/6]: <rwbarton> the real experience you gain is "don't do blade"
09:39:41 <elliott> should i take anything special
09:40:15 <elliott> also I guess rFire isn't that important in blades?
09:40:23 <Patashu> there can be weapons of flaming
09:41:17 <elliott> feature request: they're not fucking swords
09:41:28 <elliott> since that's how i heal these days
09:41:34 <elliott> does killing them give piety
09:41:42 <elliott> & also will anti-magic do anything fancy to them
09:41:52 <elliott> (& also will draining do anything fancy to them)
09:47:31 <Patashu> is that a crawl light thing
09:47:33 <Patashu> also, get the fuck out of blade
09:47:45 <elliott> i take it i stand no chances against mennas
09:47:54 <Patashu> I guess you are kind of diesel
09:48:01 <elliott> I thought Crawl avoided giving genders to monsters
09:48:05 <elliott> or is that a post-0.8 thing
09:48:43 <elliott> what about the silent disciples and shit
09:49:08 <Patashu> you just opened a sword like a pillowcase
09:49:39 <elliott> i can kill anything in melee
09:49:46 <elliott> what i can't kill is stuff that summons
09:49:51 <elliott> or throws bolts of cold at me
09:49:56 <elliott> and especially my items can't survive that
09:49:59 <elliott> so basically when i did zot:1
09:50:09 <elliott> it was uneventful except all my scrolls got destroyed
09:50:25 <elliott> and i kept losing hp whenever I fought something that did blasts of stuff
09:50:31 <elliott> if everything just did melee
09:51:49 <elliott> _gruevy's ghost (mighty High Elf Ice Elementalist) comes into view.
09:52:19 <elliott> !learn add famous_last_words
09:52:31 <Patashu> he's a harmless teddybeatr
09:52:40 <monqy> xtahua with rF- is where it's at
09:52:56 <monqy> you also have: so much ac, vamp battleaxe
09:53:04 <elliott> is blades meant to be this easy
09:53:15 <monqy> Patashu: did you see that ttyrec of the spsomething that came out of an ice cave into xtahua with rF-
09:53:34 <Patashu> do you know where I can find it
09:54:11 <elliott> Patashu: you get to help me do (the last level of) crypt
09:54:42 <elliott> observe: the previous disaster
09:55:02 <lambdabot> Plugin `tell' failed with: Prelude.head: empty list
09:55:13 <monqy> I was trying to get elliott to experience the magic and wonder of liches behind glass
09:55:24 <monqy> the magic and wonder being that if you step on the items it sets the liches free on you
09:55:53 <elliott> the best thing about light is
09:56:45 <elliott> _The curse skull gives a chilling moan.
09:57:46 <elliott> i guess from the same place
09:58:08 <elliott> better chokepoint and another staircase
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09:58:28 <monqy> Patashu: !lg * sp killer=xtahua max=dam -tv:<0.3
09:58:44 <Patashu> I forgot I stopped watching it half way through because it was boring
09:59:00 <Patashu> ice cave can appear as late as vaults? lol
09:59:25 <elliott> i've dealt with one of the liches
10:00:39 <elliott> _There is a click. Suddenly, the liches are set free!
10:00:56 <elliott> Sif Muna's Volume of Snow and the Voyage
10:00:58 <elliott> literally the most boring book
10:01:00 <Patashu> that seems to be an oversight
10:01:06 <Patashu> shouldn't it only say that if there are still iches trapped there
10:02:13 <elliott> Patashu: btw is there any feasible way for me to get conservation at this point
10:02:14 <Patashu> what are you going to get by putting it off
10:02:32 <elliott> but I still don't know if I want to 15-rune or not
10:03:53 <Patashu> I mean, you could if you want to
10:04:01 <Patashu> but you don't have any way of dealing with certain parts of hell/pan
10:04:37 <elliott> wouldn't converting to tso mitigate that though
10:05:56 <Patashu> how do you plan on getting tso piety though
10:06:29 <elliott> monqy: how do i plan on getting tso piety
10:06:56 <elliott> potions of speed are useless if i have haste right
10:07:31 <monqy> doing abyss maybe? idk
10:07:47 <elliott> does trog wrath happen in abyss too
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10:10:19 <Patashu> and berked shit takes forever to kill
10:10:29 <elliott> You have reached level 27, the final one!
10:10:36 <elliott> should i raise str or dex :p
10:10:47 <Patashu> you're not getting much out of your ev
10:12:25 * Sgeo wonders if he has Dilbert Desktop Games around somewhere
10:14:09 <elliott> Your +23 crystal plate mail prevents you from hitting the white draconian.
10:14:14 <elliott> Patashu: i love how i'm still getting these messages
10:14:34 <elliott> crawl: really weird if you get +23 cpa in the really early game
10:14:42 <Patashu> even with 27 armour it still stops you sometimes
10:15:01 <elliott> draconian with a disto sword
10:16:03 <elliott> the last level of zot is always a lot harder right
10:16:59 <elliott> i could just clear zot:3 i guess
10:17:02 <elliott> but i dunno if that's suicidal or not
10:25:12 <elliott> this has to be a terrible idea
10:26:37 <elliott> monqy: tell me i'm an idiot
10:26:58 <monqy> elliott: you're an idiot
10:27:01 <monqy> elliott: ps what are you doing
10:29:54 <monqy> elliott: that happened with my ghck too
10:30:06 <monqy> elliott: no conservation all game then i found a cloak of pres on zot5
10:30:17 <elliott> is resist mutation useful in zot
10:31:27 <elliott> Patashu: is resist mutation useful in zot :(
10:31:51 <Patashu> (and draconian shifters I think?)
10:32:37 <elliott> i have an amulet of conservation
10:32:40 <elliott> and an amulet of resist mutation
10:32:47 <elliott> is it ok to put on conservation
10:32:51 <elliott> and switch to mutation when i see one of those
10:33:37 <shachaf> elliott: Did you solve the EXCITING PUZZLE?
10:34:05 <shachaf> Did you see the EXCITING PUZZLE?
10:34:40 <elliott> busy solving a different puzzle
10:36:02 <shachaf> Is it the puzzle where when you solve it you win at Crawl?
10:36:35 <shachaf> Is that a brand of cigarettes?
10:36:57 <Patashu> do you have an axe of antimagic?
10:37:02 <Patashu> do you have a scroll of silence?
10:37:35 <elliott> there's zot traps in predictable places right
10:38:20 <Patashu> put on relec for electric shooters, yes
10:38:29 <elliott> does vamp work on electric golems
10:38:47 <shachaf> do vamps dream of electric golems
10:41:28 <elliott> killer klowns are awful right
10:41:39 <Patashu> I don't think killer klowns even do anything
10:41:45 <elliott> 11:41 <Henzell> killer klown[1/5]: Not a truly unique monster, but emotes like a unique and is very powerful. Causes rotting, is very resistant to magic, and is as fast as a centaur. Fortunately, it has no elemental resistances.
10:42:44 <elliott> i'm in los of ancient lich
10:43:40 <elliott> guess i'll just punch through to it
10:44:10 <elliott> that was there from before :P
10:44:15 <elliott> they haven't rot me at all yet
10:44:39 <elliott> is that vampire summoning these
10:45:00 <Patashu> I don't think vampires can summon anything but mammals
10:45:02 <Patashu> unless it changed in light
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10:48:25 <elliott> so do guardians actually spawn around the orb
10:49:05 <Patashu> just pick up the orb and step into the tele trap
10:49:15 <elliott> i wasn't going for the orb
10:49:17 <Patashu> you could do it anyway if you feel like it
10:49:17 <elliott> i'm just clearing out zot:3
10:50:00 <elliott> that situation wasn't good
10:52:03 <elliott> Patashu: if i pick the orb up
10:52:07 <elliott> can i stash it in the temple
10:52:12 <elliott> or does picking it up start the whole
10:54:13 <elliott> it suddenly became 13 and my AC 60
10:55:05 <monqy> so are you going to grab the orb and win or do extended or what
10:55:21 <monqy> if you pick the orb up the spawning is irreversible
10:55:25 <monqy> but orb run tomb is cool
10:55:28 <monqy> but you can't do orb run hell or pan
10:55:56 <elliott> which makes me a bit more confident
10:56:11 <elliott> i'm tempted to go for extended
10:56:33 <elliott> i mean i could just win with 4 runes quickly now but i mean
10:57:16 <Patashu> did you get a beneficial mutation?
10:57:28 <Patashu> 'Armour fits poorly on your unusually shaped body.' maybe
10:57:28 <elliott> i have no idea how i got these mutations
10:57:35 <elliott> Patashu: nah i've had that for the whole game
10:57:45 <elliott> do i occasionally blink or something
10:57:57 <elliott> monqy: is this really teleportitis
10:59:41 <elliott> monqy: is there any hope for me
11:00:16 <monqy> if you grab the orb and win
11:00:39 <elliott> well at least the abyss would be tolerable with it :P
11:03:26 <monqy> do you expect to have fun in the abyss
11:07:17 <elliott> monqy: ps is 70k turns few or a lot i can't tell these things
11:07:23 <elliott> i guess it's different for light since
11:07:27 <elliott> less time identifying, eating, etc.
11:07:36 <elliott> oh and shorter branches obviously
11:07:47 <elliott> so i guess it's probably quite long for light
11:12:34 <elliott> Patashu: abyss with teleportitis has to be the greatest thing ever right
11:12:48 <Patashu> and "a good way to get the rune"
11:12:58 <Patashu> also "will make xom amused"
11:13:08 <elliott> wait can you even teleport in the abyss like that
11:13:13 <elliott> i know it blocks some kinds of stuff
11:13:31 <Patashu> you can teleport fine in the abyss
11:13:50 <elliott> how far does it teleport you
11:14:08 <elliott> no amulet of stasis, brilliant
11:14:25 <Patashu> to a different part of the abyss
11:14:37 <Patashu> (read: regenerates the abyss and places you randomly in the new abyss)
11:14:49 <Patashu> it's like playing hyperrogue basically
11:15:12 <elliott> what happens if you find the rune
11:15:18 <elliott> will you never find it again
11:15:21 <elliott> because it's already been generated
11:16:44 <Patashu> but NOT same for unique pan lord runes
11:16:51 <Patashu> those are the only ones you can miss
11:18:29 <elliott> (a) nab orb, win with 4 runes
11:18:33 <elliott> (b) go to abyss, have THE FUNNEST TIME
11:18:43 <elliott> (c) try to do extended game with teleportitis like a fucking imbecile
11:23:30 <elliott> no it;s not permissible!!!
11:25:21 <elliott> Patashu: should i orb run tomb
11:25:25 <elliott> monqy: should i orb run tomb
11:25:30 <monqy> always orb run tomb
11:25:36 <elliott> would i actually survive that
11:25:50 <elliott> but there's no death curses!
11:26:01 <Patashu> no death curses in crawl light?
11:26:04 <Patashu> so what's the point of tomb again
11:26:20 <elliott> maybe there's death curses!!!
11:28:52 <elliott> 12:28 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled striss in my learndb.
11:28:54 <elliott> monqy: who the fuck is striss
11:29:03 <monqy> random panlord with summon dragon
11:29:08 <elliott> 12:29 <Gretell> unknown monster: "striss"
11:32:52 <elliott> monqy: i have the runes and the orb
11:33:09 <elliott> want to orb run tomb like an idiot just for the hilarity
11:34:29 <monqy> you can orb run tomb if you want
11:34:33 <monqy> worst case you die
11:35:01 <elliott> 12:34 <Henzell> tomb[7/8]: RotRotRotRotTormentTormentRotTormentTormentSmiteTormentSmiteSmite You die...
11:35:14 <elliott> 12:35 <Henzell> tomb[8/8]: Croases: admittedly i should've done swamp first
11:38:11 <elliott> monqy: i'm going to do a really stupid ascension trick wish me luck!!!
11:38:44 <elliott> "it is up for every person on the planet for them to decide"
11:39:04 <elliott> monqy: i'm going to do a bunch of stupid stuff before walking up the stairs
11:41:16 <elliott> monqy: does abandoning religion have any penalties
11:42:29 <elliott> before walking up the stairs
11:42:42 <Patashu> what are you going to run into
11:43:07 <Patashu> well, just hasterun from everything
11:43:14 <elliott> will i survive even a single hit
11:43:25 <Patashu> lol, stupid ascension tricks
11:43:48 <Patashu> congrats on your easy modo win
11:43:49 <elliott> 1. 3673211 gruevy MDFi-27 escaped with the Orb
11:43:49 <elliott> 2. 2327513 elliott DDBe-27 escaped with the Orb
11:43:54 <Patashu> Are you ready for the next challenge?
11:44:26 <elliott> did i lose points by abandoning religion & being naked
11:44:58 <elliott> my teleportitis didn't kick in at all
11:46:38 <elliott> use my summoning rod thing to swarm a cloud of crap
11:46:43 <elliott> polymorph one of my boulder beetles into a naga
11:46:56 <elliott> and tried to go up the stairs
11:47:01 <elliott> and i took off all my armour beforehand
11:47:16 <elliott> ...and then ran naked out the dungeon with the orb :P
11:50:02 <Patashu> if crawl light uses the same scoring system as crawl
11:50:12 <Patashu> all it cares about is exp, no. of runes and game turns taken
11:50:28 <elliott> so i only wasted the turns it took to actually do that crap :P
11:51:10 <elliott> so, the last level of zot is actually pretty fun
11:51:54 <itidus20> ** stair dancing ** (best watched when not busy) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWdGIbZKtmg&t=214s
11:53:35 <Patashu> brogue has the best (most exploitable) stair dancing
11:53:44 <Patashu> which is funny because at first it looks like the LEAST exploitable stairs in any roguelike that has them
11:54:02 <elliott> imo every roguelike needs to adopt the following-through-stairs system brogue has
11:55:23 <Sgeo> Following through stairs system?
11:56:01 <Patashu> when you take the stairs in brogue
11:56:04 <Patashu> every monster that is actively hunting you
11:56:08 <Patashu> will take the stairs as soon as it reaches them
11:56:32 <elliott> (as opposed to the stupid system in most other roguelikes where things adjacent to you can somehow go up the stairs and then walk next to you in two turns less time than it should take)
11:56:34 <Patashu> so you need to use Secret Techniques to exploit stairs
11:56:39 <elliott> (and anything with even one square of air around you won't follow at all)
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12:00:08 <elliott> Patashu: so what are the brogue techniques
12:01:49 <elliott> monqy: bet you enjoyed playing as MEPHITICCLOUD
12:02:09 <monqy> it actually didn't have meph
12:02:12 <Patashu> I made a post on the brogue wiki detailing what you can do with stairs
12:02:16 <Patashu> http://brogue.wikia.com/wiki/Stairdancing
12:02:17 <monqy> right now i'm playing MOUNTAINDWARF, which does have meph
12:02:30 <elliott> monqy: is the naming theme "bad things"
12:02:40 <monqy> naming scheme is OBLIVION
12:02:51 <monqy> things that were "nerfed to oblivion"
12:03:03 <monqy> mephitic cloud, mountain dwarf, staff monk, slaying
12:03:04 <elliott> I'm not sure I'd call what was done to Mountain Dwarves "nerfing".
12:03:05 <Patashu> what was op about staff monk
12:03:15 <monqy> it was just nerfed to oblivion
12:03:21 <Sgeo> Is there a Brogue server?
12:03:29 <Patashu> but it has a replay system
12:03:33 <Patashu> so if you win (or die hilariously) I can watch you
12:03:40 <elliott> a brogue server would require the brogue program to work well anyway
12:04:07 <Patashu> I think there's a console version of brogue
12:04:13 <Patashu> just that it's not available because the faketerm is a lot better
12:04:18 <Patashu> and it's going to be used for an ssh server
12:04:23 <elliott> yeah but nobody will want to play that
12:04:27 <elliott> at least nobody with taste
12:05:16 <monqy> i wasn't looking atht the screen
12:05:43 <elliott> you should use mephitic cloud on everything
12:05:56 <elliott> can't sacrifice optimal play just for your personal opinions!
12:06:00 <elliott> you have a team relying on you
12:06:49 <monqy> this is the only one I have left
12:06:54 <monqy> then everything will be stuck on marvinpa
12:07:09 <monqy> (until it comes back around to me that is)
12:09:54 <elliott> sounds a lot like mephitic cloud to me
12:10:04 <elliott> sounds like you're feeding your secret meph addiction without admitting it!!!
12:11:26 <elliott> i havent even seen meph ever casted monqy
12:15:48 <elliott> i think monqy just wants to cast meph a lot
12:15:50 <elliott> i think he really likes it
12:15:55 <monqy> everything about this char is op
12:16:25 <elliott> monqy: did you see i won btw
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12:24:52 <Taneb> Now for Crawl [Heavy|Dark]!
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12:33:12 <elliott> It's like Crawl, but Light.
12:33:35 <elliott> It's a fork of 0.8 that adds some new stuff and removes annoying things like the bad hunger, identification and curse systems.
12:33:51 <elliott> bad (hunger, identification and curse systems)
12:33:58 <Sgeo> What's bad about them?
12:34:15 <monqy> i thought you played craw
12:34:33 <elliott> alternatively: "everything"
12:36:01 <elliott> even ais thinks crawl's id game sucks, and he likes identification
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12:38:22 <Sgeo> How does it suck?
12:38:47 <elliott> 13:34 <monqy> i thought you played craw
12:39:01 <elliott> it's uninteresting, tedious, and has no gameplay benefits
12:39:43 <elliott> it involves no interesting choices, more or less no risk, and basically is just completely pointless
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12:57:55 <elliott> monqy: you gotat see that tv
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13:21:47 <Sgeo> Help me! I'm using drivelware pushed by Facebook
13:21:59 <Sgeo> Because it has one redeeming quality over Pidgin
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14:08:42 <Sgeo> If I go to sleep I'm going to forget what I need to post to the Allegiance forums
14:09:01 <itidus20> summarize it here in a few posts
14:09:09 <itidus20> then you can check it later in the logs
14:17:28 <Sgeo> Why am I listening to itidus20
14:18:33 <Sgeo> Allegiance installer doesn't have Allegiance run as Administrator -- which is good except for it installing Allegiance into a protected directory, so updaters don't work
14:18:56 <Sgeo> And R6 apparently uses Visual C++ 2010 Redistributable files, which the installer does not install
14:19:18 <itidus20> Lewis Carroll once invented a strange device for taking shorthand in the dark, because he would forget what idea he just woke up with faster than the oil lamp could be turned on.
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16:09:56 <itidus20> based on some rants the other day, i'm trying my winxp in a fullscreen style mode..
16:11:15 <itidus20> all open windows maximized (where possible), taskbar removed from the bottom, taskbar can be entirely replaced effectively by alt+tab and windows key
16:13:06 <itidus20> it's my backlash against overlapping windows
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18:17:12 <ion> https://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-piracy-boosts-music-sales-study-finds-120517/
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18:20:28 <itidus20> ion: i guess the record industry wants to have their cake and eat it too.
18:21:54 * itidus20 notices that every other time someone has spoken i have responded and it might be time for a break
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18:52:06 <HackEgo> 831) <olsner> they call finnish human-readable?
18:52:18 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask.
18:52:24 <HackEgo> ].~"MɱʂefO_4eD(2.tз};M0{zZ.7{^B'_O.IaS@."c:Y.Iƥ0I.~nY&`ƫ@bcMb+.Jj...S\.Aa#+ \ '.t.^˕4Nx-.BPhb..iJ@f:QLܒ;dɇe.z..Rz \ .w!*Ax2^fMVkl.Rg.[c(.k~{ ".+.[0~6.#ov0.qFS=]C"`ݑ.ts.
18:52:32 <nortti> actually they called finnish easy to read.
18:53:02 <HackEgo> 439) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement \ 445) <Taneb> Cut to February <Taneb> War were declared <Taneb> A galaxy in turmoil <Taneb> Anyway, Febuary '10 \ 446) <Taneb> I can't afford one of those! <Taneb> A grandchild, not a laser printer \ 453) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different
18:53:34 <HackEgo> 453) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You've just gave me a different result [...] <fizzie> It's always insane to expect different results, even when it's likely to occur.
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18:59:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: qutoe: not found
19:00:04 <HackEgo> 619) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love \ 625) [in the context of Open University] <Ngevd> "Unlike other operating systems, Linux operating systems use Linux" \ 628) <fungot> Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov \ 630) <Phantom__Hoover> Also you steal Berwick from us and then
19:01:01 <HackEgo> 823) <oklopol> nortti: fizzie has done some impressive stuff in befunge, which is essentially the two-dimensional version of finnish politics. \ 824) <elliott> It's... not really links2-optimised. <nortti> elliott: I don't think that any page is links2 optimised
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20:48:06 <Taneb> #haskell is the most banny I've ever seen a channel that hadn't been taken over by a musician from New Jersey
20:48:24 <monqy> does that happen frequently
20:49:01 <Taneb> It happened once...
20:49:38 <Taneb> The channel no longer exists, but for a short time I was its owner
20:50:17 <kmc> people gettin banned?
20:50:46 <kmc> Taneb: what for / why is it remarkable?
20:50:51 <shachaf> kmc: A troll is rejoining with different IPs.
20:50:55 <shachaf> Nothing particularly remarkable.
20:51:14 <Taneb> (I don't IRC very much, but when I do, I mostly stay in the comfort of this very channel)
20:54:41 <ion> The best tranny. The banny.
20:55:15 <Taneb> The intersection between #esoteric and #haskell is a number of people
20:55:21 <Taneb> That is at least 3
20:55:35 <shachaf> kmc: Did you solve the EXCITING PUZZLE?
21:08:40 <Taneb> Sgeo, do the update thing!
21:10:02 -!- elliott has joined.
21:10:28 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:12:43 <Taneb> There's been sausagey chaos on #haskell
21:12:44 <ion> @@ @tell elliott @echo @echo @echo
21:13:18 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:14:49 <monqy> i was hopeful when he said "SSH is awesome" but when i asked he says he'd only consider himself a "ssh fanboy" on the condition that telnet was the only alternative :(
21:16:25 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:17:22 <shachaf> @@ @tell shachaf @echo @echo @echo
21:27:05 <kmc> shachaf: what puzzle?
21:27:36 <shachaf> How many non-interesecting "8"s can you fit on a plane?
21:28:26 <Taneb> shachaf, depends how big the plane and the "8"s are
21:28:41 <shachaf> The 8s can be any size you like.
21:29:00 <Taneb> I'm going for an infinite number
21:29:21 <shachaf> The question is whether it's countably many.
21:29:52 <elliott> I'd guess yes, since you can pack 8s into the dip in the middle.
21:29:57 <Taneb> I'm going for uncountable
21:30:12 <Taneb> If the 8s can get stupidly tiny
21:30:17 <Taneb> (mathematical term)
21:31:04 <shachaf> Circles are easy but 8s are much trickier.
21:31:12 <shachaf> What's "the dip in the middle"?
21:31:26 <Taneb> Consider a circle surrounding an 8
21:31:38 <elliott> shachaf: The thing connecting the two "o"s.
21:31:54 <shachaf> Taneb: 8s can go into other 8s, of course.
21:32:09 <Taneb> shachaf, that doesn't make it any more countable?
21:32:33 <shachaf> Who said it was countable?
21:32:46 <Taneb> I claimed it wasn't!
21:33:11 <Taneb> If it's uncountable without putting 8s in other 8s, it will be uncountable with that ability
21:33:28 <elliott> It's uncountable because you can imagine packing the reals the same way, Q.E.D..
21:33:52 <Taneb> (I have little idea what I'm talking about, btw. Most of my knowledge of this topic comes from reading irregular webcomic)
21:33:56 <shachaf> OK, so how is it uncountable without putting 8s in other 8s?
21:34:10 <Taneb> Because the 8s can get stupidly tiny
21:34:22 <elliott> shachaf: Just pack circles and then s/circle/8/?
21:34:34 <elliott> 8s have a bounding circle.
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21:51:43 <shachaf> elliott: No, because circles can go inside each other.
21:52:25 <shachaf> The obvious packing is f(r : R⁺) = Circle { center = (0,0), radius = r }
21:52:39 <elliott> OK, but an 8 is just a circle with a twist.
21:52:49 <elliott> You can pack 8s into the side, which is the equivalent of the inside.
21:53:06 <elliott> Think of taking a circle and twisting it to make an 8, and what happens to the insides.
21:53:09 <shachaf> Well, the "obvious packing" I mentioned doesn't work.
21:53:20 <shachaf> So suggest another packing. :-)
21:53:22 <elliott> You don't pack the 8 into the 8.
21:53:26 <elliott> You pack the 8 into the side of the 8.
21:53:34 <shachaf> OK, but how do you get uncountably many that way?
21:54:04 <elliott> shachaf: Put a real number in the top circle of the 8.
21:54:19 <elliott> Note that you can find any real number by diving deep enough.
21:54:36 <elliott> I'm not going to make a formal proof.
21:54:42 <shachaf> Actually I have no idea what you mean.
21:54:48 <shachaf> But I don't think it works. :-)
21:56:43 <elliott> OK, do you understand what I mean by twisting a circle in the middle to get an 8?
21:57:31 <elliott> If you imagine a certain kind of (not physically possible twist), you can imagine what's in the very middle of the circle actually ending up at the sides of the middle point of the 8 where the circles join, on the outside.
21:57:50 <elliott> (It's not physically possible because you sort of twist it in-place.)
21:58:00 <elliott> (I'm sure there's a fancy topological definition of it.)
21:58:08 <shachaf> But if you have two non-intersecting concentric circles, and you twist them both, you get two intersecting 8s.
21:58:25 <shachaf> Oh, maybe I don't understand what you're saying.
21:58:26 <elliott> Anyway, I didn't even state it based on the circles originally.
21:58:44 <elliott> The point is: the middle of the 8 has some free space, right?
21:58:51 <elliott> Where the two circles meet, there's some space to the left and right of the midpoint.
21:58:52 <Gregor> Estimated delivery date: Today.
21:58:57 <Gregor> Current location: 2,000 miles away.
21:59:08 <elliott> So just pack one on each side, and repeat the process.
21:59:19 <shachaf> That's only going to be countably many.
21:59:29 <shachaf> I can trivially enumerate these 8s. :-)
22:00:08 <shachaf> But then it's not an EXCITING PUZZLE anymore.
22:05:36 <Sgeo> How would a packing problem have uncountably infinite pieces in a space?
22:06:35 <shachaf> Circles can go inside each other.
22:06:45 <shachaf> They just can't intersect.
22:07:37 <elliott> Anyway, tell us the solution.
22:08:23 <shachaf> You wouldn't want to SPOIL IT, would you?
22:08:53 <shachaf> elliott: I can give you a hint:
22:09:01 <shachaf> Is packing discs (filled-in circles) possible?
22:10:20 <shachaf> OK, so figure that out first. :-)
22:13:38 <Sgeo> I should post on the Allegiance forums
22:13:44 <Sgeo> They need to fix the installer
22:32:29 <Sgeo> elliott, http://type.method.ac/#
22:33:34 <Sgeo> Does it make sense that the letters at the end aren't movable?
22:34:10 <elliott> Yes, otherwise the game would be impossible; there would be an infinite number of valid kernings, parameterised on letter spacing.
22:34:34 <elliott> (i.e. all of http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/40/Letter-spacingS1.png are kerned correctly.)
22:34:48 <elliott> (Well, ostensibly. Assume they are; they could be incorrect, but that's not the point.)
22:35:38 <Sgeo> I kept wanting to squish everything together
22:36:08 <Sgeo> I didn't actually finish the game >.>
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23:06:47 <oklofok> "shachaf How many non-interesecting "8"s can you fit on a plane?" rather trivially only countably many
23:07:29 <oklofok> the idea is similar to the one for "uncountable sum of positive reals is infinite"
23:08:32 <oklofok> for the latter problem, we note that if for all 1/n, we had just countably many over that magnitude, then we could just take the countable union
23:10:14 <oklofok> similarly, for the eights, we note that if you take any "rational interval of 8 approximations", then some approximation interval is uncountable, which will be a contradiction. by an approximation interval i mean something like "height of the 8 is between x and y, and the angles in the middle are between z and w" or something.
23:10:50 <oklofok> this is all very standard, but this is a common problem type in noob competitions
23:13:31 <oklofok> well okay 8's are particularly simple so you just need to look at the size of bounding boxes
23:13:50 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy etc
23:14:36 <oklofok> it is ever so slightly more interesting for Y
23:21:44 <kmc> "very standard... noob competitions"
23:22:42 <oklofok> silly bullshit no one should be doing
23:25:49 <oklofok> can no space with a nontrivial fundamental group have uncountably many nonoverlapping embeddings?
23:28:23 <oklofok> i don't think you can get anything interesting out of this
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23:29:16 <kmc> thanks for being a dick about it
23:29:24 <kmc> i don't think shachaf's puzzle was meant to revolutionize mathematical research
23:29:47 <kmc> i think it was a little puzzle for a group of people casually interested in mathematics
23:29:50 <oklofok> finally, someone takes my being a dick seriously
23:34:28 <oklofok> wait what, did shachaf invent the puzzle?
23:38:05 <oklofok> also i read my lines and wonder wtf you're menstruating abou
23:38:45 <oklofok> thanks for being a dick about it
23:39:02 <oklofok> :--------------------------------------------D
23:41:46 <oklofok> anyway does this game have a point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUC2tpY5gb4 ?
23:42:20 <oklofok> my attention span for flowers is not long enough to get it
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23:43:28 <oklofok> okay i guess it is, you hit flowers with the petals
23:44:13 <oklofok> Games aren't always about senseless violence and violence. Some have a deeper meaning and an actual purpose. Take this game, Flower, for instance. It is the opposite of? violence.
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00:24:11 <oklofok> "oklofok can no space with a nontrivial fundamental group have uncountably many nonoverlapping embeddings?" oookay wtf was i thinking :D
00:24:28 <oklofok> how about a fucking circle :D
00:25:11 <oklofok> note to self: 8 != 0, _even in shape_
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00:31:37 <oklofok> also am i sleeping, because i sure hope so?
00:31:43 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/QFUK I am mad.
00:32:08 <oklofok> can you give a tl;dr version?
00:32:20 <pikhq> It encodes uncompressed PNGs.
00:32:36 <kmc> hey i wrote one of those
00:33:34 <oklofok> did i mention that we programmed this ramsey theoretic function for fun which cannot actually be evaluated for any nontrivial inputs
00:33:44 <pikhq> This is how I intend to do screenshot functionality in cmako.
00:34:05 <pikhq> Also savestate functionality.
00:34:47 <oklofok> an ackermann-like function which explodes beyond comprehension at 3, and is defined for all ordinals up to \omega^\omega^... :P
00:36:06 <Sgeo> Wait, you can read in a game from an image?
00:36:22 <Sgeo> What sort of game is it?
00:36:31 <Sgeo> Wait, I'm assuming it's a game
00:36:35 <kmc> what's the mako vm?
00:36:53 <pikhq> kmc: Thing a friend of mine came up with. https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako
00:37:18 <pikhq> Kinda been fun implementing.
00:38:09 <Sgeo> ...the sort of way I talk to my gf is leaking into IRC
00:39:48 <oklofok> it's okay it makes us happy :)
00:41:27 <oklofok> Sgeo: so tell me about this gf
00:43:24 <Sgeo> She's doing programming at our college, she likes the Stargate franchise, she's smart (although she seems to not have independently learned CS stuff)
00:44:52 <Gregor> She has no physical manifestation, apparently, but then who needs one *shrugs*
00:44:52 <Sgeo> She seems to like everything I point her to (in terms of fiction etc.) She now likes The IT Crowd, Homestuck, and ... I don't remember what else
00:45:18 <Gregor> Of course, the meaning of "he" and "she" start to blur when you have no physical manifestation, but again, not really relevant.
00:45:41 <pikhq> Gregor: Incorporeal entities can still self-identify as a gender.
00:46:01 <Gregor> But that's so ... so ... /corporeal/. It's beneath them.
00:46:06 <augur> anyone wanna collaborate on a programming project? :x
00:46:19 <oklofok> augur: no, programming sucks.
00:47:04 <oklofok> due to programming so much
00:47:15 <oklofok> that i've gotten so smart that i got your reference
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00:47:30 <Gregor> oklofok: augur just uses "programming project" as a euphemism for gay sex. Actually, he uses almost everything as an analogy for gay sex.
00:47:40 <augur> Gregor: alas, right now i mean it literally
00:47:49 <oklofok> augur: then no, for other reasons
00:50:19 <oklofok> Gregor: but now you have the wrong article
00:51:04 <Gregor> oklofok: No, I just switched accents mid-stream.
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00:55:33 <oklofok> my non-native eyes cannot always tell from text
00:57:45 <oklofok> augur: having programming suck my dick would be nice for a change, usually it seems to be the other way around
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00:58:21 <kmc> pikhq: now i've found your github account
00:58:24 <kmc> and bootstrap-linux
00:58:25 <kmc> that's cool :)
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01:13:20 <Gregor> kmc: If you join #musl , you'll see that there's roughly one distribution per channel member, give or take.
01:28:23 <tswett> Gregor: eeyup. The horror! Okey dokey lokey! Yaaay. Ha ha, the fun has been doubled! NOPE!
01:29:40 <Gregor> tswett: What elliott is trying to say is, this kind of talk belongs in #esoteric-ponies
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04:50:33 <pikhq_> http://sprunge.us/AfdU
04:53:21 <pikhq_> Actually, sorry, shouldn't have pastebinned so soon.
04:53:48 <pikhq_> Genericising the thing works better when you do so completely.
04:54:08 <pikhq_> http://sprunge.us/TaED
04:57:41 <coppro> pikhq_: describe the interface
04:59:01 <pikhq_> coppro: You pass write_png a FILE* to write to, width and height of the image, the image, and a NULL-terminated list of chunk names in char*, chunk lengths in size_t, and chunk data in void*.
04:59:17 <pikhq_> ... Waaaait, not quite. XD
04:59:22 <pikhq_> I fucked it up slightly, XD.
05:03:12 <pikhq_> http://sprunge.us/EKPM
05:22:01 <pikhq_> GCC THAT IS NOT A VLA ON THE STACK, THAT IS A POINTER TO A VLA
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05:34:10 <ais523> pikhq_: pointer-to-VLA is a vaguely dubious type anyway
05:34:20 <ais523> is there any particular reason why you can't just use a pointer to the first element?
05:35:08 <pikhq_> ais523: Because I want to write foo[i][j] not foo[j + i*stride];
05:36:00 <pikhq_> And I have the reasonable expectation of gcc implementing a 13 year old standard right.
05:38:40 <ais523> hmm, I'm not actually certain offhand that a VLA /of/ VLAs is legal
05:42:51 <ais523> presumably all the inside ones have to have the same length
05:44:24 <elliott> 05:59 <pikhq_> coppro: You pass write_png a FILE* to write to, width and height of the image, the image, and a NULL-terminated list of chunk names in char*, chunk lengths in size_t, and chunk data in void*.
05:44:33 <elliott> FILE * is a bad interface to use :(
05:45:59 <ais523> oh, btw, was it people in here that were complaining that commands buffered their output? or elsewhere?
05:46:14 <ais523> I wrote a "nobuffer" program that wraps the relevant libc functions to not do buffering
05:46:21 <elliott> for instance, pikhq_'s encoder can't be used to portably write a png to memory without pain
05:46:46 <pikhq_> elliott: Therefore, fuck not-POSIX.
05:46:47 <elliott> or to a network transport that isn't "bare" (additional headers etc.)
05:47:02 <elliott> pikhq_: you wouldn't have a fun time doing it on POSIX either
05:47:20 <pikhq_> open_memstream says what?
05:47:25 <ais523> fmemopen is POSIX.1-2008
05:47:51 <elliott> for instance, those require specifying a size ahead of time
05:48:04 <pikhq_> open_memstream doesn't.
05:48:19 <elliott> however, see my other objection
05:48:19 <ais523> yep, open_memstream is the dynamically sized version (also POSIX)
05:48:27 <elliott> an in-memory string is a special case
05:48:39 <elliott> all you really want is a simple callback that takes a bunch of bytes
05:48:46 <elliott> (FILE *) is overspecifying
05:49:17 <ais523> (although that's a GNU extension)
05:49:22 <pikhq_> In the meantime, this thing is really, truly not working.
05:49:25 <elliott> you can just parameterise it on write_chunk (where s/FILE */void */ and bundle a void *)
05:49:52 <elliott> struct sink { void *data; void write-chunk(void *data, char type[4], size_t len, uint8_t *data); }
05:49:57 <ais523> elliott: OTOH, especially with C not having lambdas, it'd be a pain to write out the callbacks
05:50:14 <elliott> struct sink { void *closure; void write(void *closure, char *data, size_t len); }
05:50:26 <elliott> ais523: no it wouldn't; most of the time, you'd just say file_sink(my_file_ptr)
05:50:37 <ais523> where are you getting file_sink from?
05:50:39 <pikhq_> write_idat seems to be shoving me a nice, long chunk 0 bytes.
05:50:44 <elliott> it'd come with the library
05:50:58 <ais523> and when does it free its data?
05:50:58 <elliott> yes, it'd be inconvenient to add new outputs
05:51:04 <elliott> but inconvenient is better than impossible
05:51:11 <elliott> in this case, data would be the FILE *
05:51:19 <elliott> (closure is a better name)
05:51:21 <ais523> you're saying "file_sink(my_file_ptr)"
05:51:27 <ais523> presumably it returns a struct
05:51:32 <ais523> when does that struct get freed?
05:51:36 <ais523> or are you breaking thread-safety?
05:52:00 <elliott> actually, you've answered your own question by contradicting yourself
05:52:06 <elliott> in lines two and three there
05:52:28 <elliott> presumably it returns a pointer to a struct
05:52:46 <ais523> oh, right, I forgot it was even possible to return entire structs via copying
05:53:01 <elliott> the struct is just shorthand for passing the closure and function as two separate parameters here
05:53:04 <elliott> since that would be awkward
05:54:26 <pikhq_> How the heck am I getting a giant empty IDAT chunk?
05:54:34 <elliott> ais523: btw, I won that Crawl Light game
05:56:07 <monqy> I'm waiting for something before I play crawl light but I forget what it is
05:56:17 <elliott> you forgot that last time, too
05:56:22 <elliott> good news: hard mode now actually works!
05:56:54 <elliott> i hear it was hard enough that he had to turn down the hardness slightly!
05:56:57 <elliott> for summoned things or something
05:57:11 <ais523> elliott: you won Crawl Light? neat?
05:57:20 <ais523> was that with that +23 armour?
05:57:23 <elliott> ais523: hmm, neat is a question?
05:57:33 <elliott> and yes, that's basically why I won :)
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06:04:13 <elliott> monqy: You should play Light, it's like Crawl but easy.
06:04:24 <elliott> (Under suitably lucky circumstances.)
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06:05:43 <elliott> monqy: It's easy if you find +23 cpa.
06:05:52 <elliott> Also it's not actually easy.
06:06:11 * elliott wants to see the second Pandoora. :'(
06:08:32 <elliott> monqy: Have you played the bee castle?
06:08:35 <elliott> Think of what you're missing.
06:08:39 * pikhq_ is *immensely* confused
06:09:03 <elliott> But it's also a castle of bees.
06:09:26 <monqy> vanilla has castles too, light probalby has them too
06:09:27 <pikhq_> I'm getting nothing but a giant chunk of 0x00 out here.
06:09:33 <elliott> monqy: Does it have NetHack's castle?
06:09:50 <elliott> ais523: Tell monqy about the wonders of the bee castle, man.
06:09:54 <monqy> lemuel castle is good though, dunno if it's anything like nethack castle
06:09:57 <elliott> You're an expert on the grounds of adding it to the topic.
06:11:42 <ais523> elliott: I've been spouting "bee castle!" at dtsund every few months since he first brought the subject up
06:11:48 <ais523> now it exists it's not such a good meme any more :(
06:11:52 <elliott> monqy: Just imagine! No hunger, no identification, no curses.
06:12:03 <elliott> Just all that... good... Crawl... fun... uhhh, never mind.
06:12:11 <monqy> it still has big levels!!
06:12:21 <monqy> "it's not monqys-crawl"
06:12:23 <elliott> monqy: But there's less of them!
06:12:30 <elliott> So you can just imagine one level as being, like, two levels.
06:12:42 <elliott> And there's an exciting barrier on one of them!
06:13:23 <monqy> also it stashing and inventory management and stuff!!!
06:13:40 <monqy> i haven't decided what to do about inventory management in monqys-crawl but at least there won't be stashing
06:13:50 <monqy> and there will be fewer items
06:14:05 <elliott> It's still less annoying than Crawl!
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06:14:46 <monqy> i don't care about banded mail!!
06:14:54 <elliott> monqy: What kind of a monster are you???
06:15:22 <elliott> You are now monqy "waits for hard mode; complains about level size after wards" monqys-surname. :(
06:15:54 <monqy> that's not the only thing i'm complaining about
06:15:57 <ais523> I love the idea that monqy's surname actually is monqys-surname
06:15:59 <monqy> i'm complaining about plenty of other things too
06:16:32 <elliott> ais523: whois giveth and whois taketh away, Mr. (this is obviously not my real name).
06:16:53 <elliott> monqy: I think you're just scared of dying without your script!!!
06:17:04 <ais523> meh, I whoised monqy hoping it would list "monqy monqys-surname" as the realname
06:17:09 <monqy> elliott: remember how i got wrapped into that tournament
06:17:12 <elliott> ais523: That's the taketh away.
06:17:22 <monqy> elliott: i haven't died yet!!!
06:17:28 <elliott> monqy: Yeah, but you cast mephitic cloud!
06:17:34 <elliott> monqy: You just can't play like you used to.
06:17:36 <monqy> elliott: i cast it because you told me
06:17:56 <elliott> I was just showing you the horror inside of you.
06:18:06 <elliott> It's okay, some of us are just bad.
06:18:22 <elliott> You can avoid Light if you want but you cannot avoid your decay!!!
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06:19:11 <monqy> i'll play light eventually sometime. was hard mode the only thing i was waiting for?
06:19:13 <elliott> monqy: As I was saying, you should play Light.
06:19:22 <ais523> I meant that as a threat :)
06:19:36 <elliott> ais523: "kool" -- monqy monqys-surname, 2012
06:19:37 <monqy> such a playful sounding threat
06:19:39 <elliott> monqy: Well, that was the thing you remembered last time.
06:19:55 <monqy> well maybe i'll play it
06:19:58 <monqy> what should I play
06:20:00 <elliott> The best part is that the hard mode is alpha quality right now, so it'll be just as fun as monqys-crawl!
06:20:36 <elliott> ais523: meh, SEAM isn't even oldwon any more
06:20:50 <ais523> it was nemelex challenge, I think
06:20:54 <ais523> which is /why/ it's newwon
06:21:03 <ais523> it's a great combo, not only is it bad, it's not bad /enough/ to run as a challenge
06:21:07 <elliott> it is oldwon, because AM doesn't exist any more
06:21:23 <ais523> oh, bleh, they rereremovedit?
06:21:39 <elliott> 07:20 <Henzell> oldwon[1/2]: CeAr CeAs CeIE CeSt CeTm(Pac) CeWn CeWr DDCj DDMo DDTm DEAK DEAr DEPr DgEn DgSu FeDK FeFi FeNe(mikee) FePr FeWr GhAK GhVM GhWr HaAM HaSu HESt HuAs KoCK KoEn KoFi KoWz MfAE(hyperpivotal) MfAM MfPr MfSu MiSu(coolrobin) SEAM(coolrobin) SEFi SEPr SpAE SpGl VpAs VpEE VpFE VpTm
06:21:49 <elliott> no, it's just still oldwon-in-progress
06:21:56 <monqy> AM used to exist, then they removed it, then they unremoved it
06:22:14 <monqy> and I don't remember it being a nemelex' choice
06:22:16 <elliott> 07:22 <Pandoora> The RNG chooses: FeCj.
06:22:24 <elliott> the joke is that crawl light doesn't have felids
06:22:36 <elliott> ye was perfectly correct on its own
06:22:48 <elliott> 07:22 <Pandoora> The RNG chooses: GhAK.
06:22:51 <elliott> wow too perfect to be true
06:23:05 <elliott> that really happened, I swear
06:23:17 <elliott> 07:22 <elliott> !rng @badchar
06:23:17 <elliott> 07:22 <Pandoora> The RNG chooses: FeCj.
06:23:17 <elliott> 07:22 <elliott> !rng @badchar
06:23:17 <monqy> no im laughing at the joke where light doesnt have ghak
06:23:18 <elliott> 07:22 <Pandoora> The RNG chooses: GhAK.
06:23:31 <elliott> 07:23 <Pandoora> The RNG chooses: DEWn.
06:23:48 <elliott> ghaks raen't spookey. have you ever seen a crawl ghoule.
06:25:07 <elliott> 07:25 <Pandoora> The RNG chooses: HOAs.
06:25:11 <elliott> monqy: play higher-order abstract syntax
06:25:32 <monqy> no i dont want to pplay hoas
06:25:57 <elliott> it's suggested KeWr twice; maybe you should play KeWr
06:26:33 <elliott> or MDPr (its a joke i dont like mountain dwarves)
06:26:40 <elliott> (but its a joke pandoora came up with not me)
06:27:13 <elliott> MiEE. VpSk (ha). GhWz (ha). FeWz (ha). DSEn.
06:27:56 <elliott> so much bot-operating work for monqy.
06:28:25 <monqy> you don't have to find something with pandoora, it'll probably suck that way
06:28:33 <monqy> I want something "actually fun"
06:29:13 <elliott> why not dddk that sounds fun ! (assuming dks play like they do in monqys-crawl)
06:29:28 <pikhq_> Now it works *correctly*.
06:29:47 <pikhq_> Did you know that DEFLATE encodes little-endian, while PNG encodes big-endian?
06:30:53 <ais523> elliott: lack of divine healing?
06:31:00 <monqy> ais523: drain life
06:31:18 <elliott> i was thinking zombie shields though
06:31:49 <monqy> i don't want to play dk
06:31:55 <monqy> ally herding remember
06:32:00 -!- ais523 has set topic: not tommorow's topic | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
06:32:07 <elliott> ais523: tomorrow we'll fix the typo
06:32:23 <ais523> then the day after we'll reintroduce it!
06:32:51 <elliott> ais523: no, then it'll become "not yesterday's topic"
06:33:02 <elliott> ais523: fun fact: it can never become "yesterday's topic" without a falsehood being present in the chain
06:33:16 <HackEgo> 157) <oklofok> colon is where your ass comes from right
06:33:18 <monqy> not yeasterday's topic
06:33:20 <ais523> nor can it become "tomorrow's topic" unless it stays there forever
06:33:27 <HackEgo> 419) <d1ffe7e45e interpreter> The interpreter uses an unbounded tape size, but due to technical limitations will stop being unbounded if the tap size reaches 2^63 cells.
06:33:28 <HackEgo> 724) <elliott> I'm not biased towards humanity over sentient .txt files.
06:33:30 <HackEgo> 561) <Vorpal> elliott, it is typical of you <elliott> Vorpal: so are most things I say
06:33:32 <HackEgo> 495) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds?
06:33:54 <elliott> 724 is crappy; 157 is crappier (if you make a joke out of this ill punch your face)
06:34:03 <ais523> I don't like that sort of joke
06:34:14 <ais523> I actually kind-of like 724
06:34:22 <HackEgo> *poof* <oklofok> colon is where your ass comes from right
06:34:26 <elliott> also talking about it as a hypothetical will make me statistically more likely to punch you
06:34:27 <ais523> I think we're all agreed on that one, anyway
06:34:32 <elliott> the punches cannot be avoided by any means other than ignorance
06:34:50 <ais523> meh, I /can't/ make a joke out of that
06:34:57 <ais523> I wouldn't have said it if I did think of it
06:35:01 <elliott> ais523: the joke is "crappier"
06:35:02 <ais523> but now I'm disappointed :(
06:35:07 <ais523> elliott: yes, I see the connection
06:35:09 <ais523> just can't make a joke out of it
06:35:17 <ais523> I can make a coincidence out of it, but a coincidence is not a joke
06:35:45 <monqy> joke's on elliott, the joke is actually elliott's parenthetical
06:36:00 <elliott> that's probably insufficiently crappy
06:36:13 <monqy> are you trying to pick something crappy
06:36:13 <elliott> i didn't bother selecting Na to see which were the good (unrecommended) ones
06:36:19 <elliott> crappy in a very special sense
06:36:53 <elliott> are kenku interesting. i know literally nothing about them
06:36:57 <monqy> navm is "crappy" in the sense that they have the best poison magic apt in the game but I'm not casting meph
06:37:02 <monqy> kenku are just tengu but in the past
06:37:09 <elliott> i know nothing about tengu either
06:37:12 <elliott> other than that they're future kenku
06:37:37 <monqy> anyway i'm not playing kenku
06:37:51 <elliott> im just asking `whye' though so i know
06:37:59 <elliott> i nede the facts to be in the possession of uh myself :(
06:38:01 <monqy> they're all fragile and stuff
06:38:34 <monqy> i'd play OgRe but i don't want to
06:40:16 <monqy> i need to check something
06:40:57 <elliott> i dont understand whtasts the no
06:41:01 <pikhq_> http://sprunge.us/KXDZ Aaaah
06:41:15 <monqy> i played my ogwz in 0.8a and i don't know if tukima's was nerfed within 0.8a or 0.9a aaaahhhh
06:41:47 <elliott> you should play OgHe you've been overing over it for like 60 seconds
06:42:27 <monqy> ogtm is good though
06:43:29 <elliott> i thought you wanted something `fun'
06:44:06 <elliott> its too complicated for a monkey :(
06:44:36 <monqy> what's not `fun' about ogcr!!
06:44:52 <elliott> oh no i sent you a message but
06:45:02 <monqy> i dont think it works
06:46:59 <monqy> it'd match if it was found
06:47:00 <elliott> whatever that other altar was
06:47:09 <elliott> you searched for the and shining
06:47:14 <elliott> so i told you to search for one
06:47:51 <monqy> anyway i'm going to be living out my ogwz dreams as this ogcr
06:48:48 <elliott> that's kind of like how my kobe tried to roleplay being a mibe or a trbe
06:48:54 <elliott> unfortunately it did not have the requisite hp
06:50:39 <monqy> elliott: i'm doing what i did on my ogwz
06:50:46 <monqy> elliott: sif->tukimas->tso->holy gsc mania
06:51:04 <elliott> monqy: ah, i see; you're so bad at playing now that you have to rely on past blueprints to succeed
06:51:20 <monqy> iit's not about the success
06:52:34 <monqy> first level is so many keypresses uuugh
06:53:02 <elliott> "it gets better" - elliott, phd
06:53:23 <elliott> if you need excitement try quaffing fountains; picking up & wielding terrible weapons; adopting a bat
06:54:12 <elliott> monqy: shoudl have gone dd
06:54:22 <elliott> ais523: just walk around with a bat trying to kill yuo its adorable
06:56:34 <elliott> it'd be great trog would be constantly angry at you!
06:57:34 <elliott> monqy: oh i forgot the other good thing about crawl light
06:57:37 <elliott> sacrificing is so easy mmmm
06:58:28 <monqy> do stats ever regain naturally
06:58:52 <elliott> dont you have a potion of fix that
06:59:02 <elliott> imo every potion should be "potion of fix X"
06:59:07 <elliott> potion of fix not being poisoned
06:59:22 <monqy> whoa i wasnt looking at the sfcren
06:59:42 <monqy> i only saw the first orc
06:59:55 <elliott> monqy: you died as soon as you saw the second orc
06:59:58 <elliott> maybe on the very same turn, maybe on the next
06:59:59 <ais523> how does sacrificing work in Light? just walk over the corpse?
07:00:06 <elliott> ais523: p sacrifices everything in los
07:00:21 <elliott> there are other things you can do with corpses so walking over them doing that would be a pain
07:00:28 <elliott> (imo sacrifices should be removed but)
07:00:55 <elliott> more squarelos reasons: would let you sacrifice even more corpses in one go
07:03:25 <elliott> ive literally never seen anyone worship fedhas
07:03:33 <elliott> i have no idea what it's like
07:03:42 <monqy> go fedhas yourself
07:04:18 <elliott> monqy: better banish that grey rat
07:04:58 <elliott> ugh the lack of the water indicator is super annoying
07:06:23 <elliott> monqy "too good to do a sewer with 2 AC"
07:07:30 <elliott> monqy: not getting a god yet?
07:08:00 <elliott> i dont understand your plans :o
07:10:07 <monqy> hm maybe it's curropted templ
07:10:11 <monqy> should "check it out"
07:12:39 <monqy> what a lame acq for nonpolearms
07:12:49 <elliott> monqy: did i miss pandoora opening :(
07:13:05 <elliott> it was the other way around for me
07:13:20 <ais523> vaults in Crawl are rotatable by default
07:13:23 <ais523> unless you tell them not to be
07:15:56 <monqy> little known secret: in light you have a "get free mp for free" ability
07:16:33 <monqy> maybe I should pick a god now
07:17:17 <monqy> forgetting spells in crawl gives you back the mp the spell's worth
07:17:28 <monqy> in light you get that as an ability costing 7 glow
07:18:07 <elliott> forgetting spells? (if so, what cost does it have in carwl)
07:18:28 <monqy> in normal crawl you have to use a scroll of amnesia, and before that you had to use a 4mp spell or the corresponding sif ability but if you;--forget spell--re with sif you--that's what i'm writing right now--can use channeling to gregain mp so
07:18:42 <elliott> oh, so it's not an ability in regular corl
07:18:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: huh': not found
07:19:00 <elliott> i wonder why light added it
07:23:01 <elliott> monqy: remember D:6 is more than D:6 because shorter dunjen!
07:23:06 <elliott> "hlepful advice from elliott"
07:23:15 <elliott> monqy: no you needed me for my advice
07:25:09 <elliott> "more helpful elliott advice"
07:25:20 <elliott> stay tuned for: banish that weak monster
07:26:07 <monqy> ugh randomised movement energ
07:26:30 <elliott> don't you have some wands or something yuo're pillar dancing its an embarrassment to monqy
07:27:32 <elliott> am i bad if i kinda like randomised movement energy btw
07:27:45 <elliott> but it nerfs pillar dancing!
07:27:52 <monqy> but it buffs it too
07:28:00 <elliott> howso; because sometimes you move twice instead?
07:28:07 <elliott> or the monster moves 0 etc.
07:28:09 <monqy> since you can dance until the monsters loses a move and then you can go up stairs and bam you're escaped
07:28:15 <ais523> I remember giving quite a bit of feedback on that
07:28:20 <elliott> is randomised movement energy only for monsters, not for you?
07:28:21 <monqy> and it's also really yucky and doesnt really work all that well against pillar dancing
07:28:23 <ais523> randomized movement lets you get a lead
07:28:25 <monqy> it's only ofr monsters
07:28:30 <ais523> so it doesn't really hurt pillar dancing
07:28:33 <elliott> then it would make pillar dancing ineffective
07:28:48 <elliott> easier ways to nerf pillar dancgin "remove regen over time"
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07:29:11 <elliott> i wonder why they added it then
07:29:35 <elliott> why did they add randomised movement energy
07:29:37 <elliott> if not to nerf pillar dancing
07:29:38 <monqy> it effectively applies to the player too since monsters get extra moves and lose them
07:29:42 <monqy> it was to nerf pillar dancing
07:29:56 <monqy> what extra gain would it be to make it apply to player too
07:29:59 <elliott> easier ways to nerf pillar dancgin "remove pillars"
07:32:52 <elliott> is there any way to get non-pathological terrain that does not allow for pillar dancing
07:33:03 <elliott> seems like your level layouts would end up being degenerate blobs
07:33:13 <elliott> 08:29 <elliott> easier ways to nerf pillar dancgin "remove pillars"
07:33:24 <Taneb> PILLARS YOU CAN PUNCH THROUGH
07:33:27 <elliott> i was defining a pillar more precisely as "anything that allows for pillar dancing"
07:33:38 <elliott> where pillar dancing is defined as "going around a pillar to recover HP while followed by a monster"
07:33:39 <Taneb> What's pillar dancing?
07:33:52 <Taneb> Better monster AI?
07:34:14 <ais523> I suggested that Xom should just collapse pillars if you walked round them enough
07:34:16 <elliott> i'm not sure what monster AI could do with it
07:34:19 <elliott> if it just went the other way
07:34:24 <elliott> pillar walk back and forth
07:34:28 <Taneb> If you're pillar dancing, another monster comes and helps
07:34:51 <elliott> monqy: i think ais523's solution is even better than removing regen
07:35:01 <elliott> ais523: is that regardless or whether or not you're worshipping Xom?
07:35:14 <monqy> the regen removal isn't just for pillar dancing
07:35:20 <monqy> it's also because i hate resting off damage
07:35:22 <elliott> monqy: i was being `unserious'
07:35:25 <monqy> among other things
07:35:42 <monqy> it's hard to tell when sometimes you like bad things!!
07:36:07 <elliott> note that: i have impeccable taste
07:39:11 <elliott> ais523: I think it's a nice idea for Xom to do things sometimes even if you don't worship them
07:39:28 <elliott> ais523: if he doesn't, he doesn't really have much credibility as the god of random chaos
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07:39:53 <elliott> (things that bother me: the overlap between xom and lugonu's flavour)
07:40:06 <elliott> i can rationalise the differences to myself but it still feels like rationalisation)
07:40:20 <ais523> lugonu flavour = lugonu hates everyone
07:40:23 <ais523> more than random chaos
07:40:35 <ais523> lugonu just corrupts things because other gods don't like it, IMO
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07:40:49 <elliott> ais523: well, the Abyss is pretty chaotic
07:41:37 <elliott> my view of the differences is: Xom is all about arbitrary, meaningless chaos and only cares about being amused; Lugonu is the god of chaos of a destructive sort, motivated by aforementioned "Lugonu hates everyone"
07:44:44 <elliott> btw, what *is* with the jiyva-having-a-random-surname thing
07:45:05 <ais523> because random-descriptions-for-X is one of the most common Crawl feature requests
07:45:15 <ais523> (X is frequently Xom, despite them being implemented already for him)
07:45:27 <elliott> what kind of random descriptions does Xom have?
07:45:42 <ais523> try pressing ^ when worshipping Xom
07:45:46 <ais523> I can't really remember
07:45:58 <ais523> IIRC they were planning to expand the list, maybe they already hae
07:47:04 <elliott> anyway, a surname doesn't count as a description :)
07:47:14 <elliott> monqy: ah this is the death yake level isn't it
07:49:53 <elliott> monqy: are you sure it's not the death yake levl it looks so much like it maybe im thinking of another one
07:50:01 <monqy> it's elephants level
07:50:12 <elliott> monqy: by death yakes i mean
07:50:22 <monqy> they become dire elephants
07:51:58 <elliott> like 70% of crawl targeting is exploiting the bresenham algorithm
07:52:47 <elliott> monqy: did you already kill the boss thing
07:52:52 <elliott> "more things elliott didn't notice"
07:53:08 <elliott> i forget this level completely!!!
07:53:11 <monqy> and I occasionally forget to ghaste instead of berk so i have horribel stats
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07:54:00 <elliott> is there no potions of make that better lying around
07:54:18 <monqy> someone destroyed the one i started with and i havent found anotherr
07:54:23 <elliott> ais523: Str: 10 (20); Dex: 5 (13)
07:54:30 <elliott> ais523: "that's our monqy"
07:55:18 <monqy> mayb i;ll find some in orc
07:55:41 <elliott> i hate this eantrnace vault
07:56:30 <elliott> with a priest in the othe rone
07:56:40 <monqy> wizards are worse than priests for me
07:56:45 <elliott> predict splat into deep water
07:57:27 <elliott> monqy: i know they are for you
07:57:36 <elliott> but not for me because i play mostly heavy armours !
07:57:52 <monqy> heavy armours don't shield your items from brutal wizard death
07:58:02 <monqy> you;'re just careless about being in los of priests
07:58:07 <elliott> monqy: true but i care about my hp more than my items!!!
07:59:01 <elliott> i guess not since you're not wielding one
07:59:15 <monqy> i found one in ?acq but i picked 3dex instead
08:00:11 <elliott> monqy: the joke is that you'd have a lot more than 3 extra dex if etc.
08:01:58 <monqy> this will fuel my tukimas nicely
08:03:15 <monqy> would be nice if i hand blink
08:03:19 <monqy> training spell skills
08:03:31 <elliott> "too easy" - trog & makhleb & lugonu guy
08:04:45 <monqy> it's actually more restrictive than killing things since if you want your xp to go into non-spellcasty skills you'll be spread thinner
08:04:50 <monqy> and you still have to kill things to get the xp
08:05:17 <elliott> (more annoying in corl as ghoule where you could pretty much go for a snack at any time)
08:05:59 <elliott> you could use that dex robe
08:06:04 <monqy> what a useless orc3
08:06:15 <elliott> idk do you have a cloak oh wait ogre
08:06:18 <elliott> i dont know how ogre do armour
08:06:36 <monqy> theay can wear robes and dragon armoures
08:07:01 <monqy> that's not body armoure
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08:07:24 <monqy> of nonbody they can do cloak, nonbuckler shields, caps, hats (no helmet)
08:08:04 <elliott> i was just saying re "lol @ that orc 3"
08:08:13 <elliott> because it had clok (albeit waste of money to spend on clok but)
08:08:19 <elliott> what robe are you wearing anyway
08:08:50 <monqy> just elven instead of orcish
08:09:23 <monqy> uugh no tukimas yet :(
08:09:42 <elliott> you should do slime, i have this great slime strategy
08:10:08 <elliott> it involves berking the royal jelly and then teleporting away after it finishes
08:10:30 <monqy> have I ever mentioned how I hate swamp
08:10:40 <elliott> if you did i don't remember
08:10:45 <elliott> it looks like shoals to me
08:11:50 <elliott> monqy: nice amulet too bad
08:11:54 <elliott> your only undrained stat!!!!
08:12:01 <elliott> wait where did you get acq
08:13:22 <elliott> monqy: nice insubstantial wisps; nice hp
08:13:30 <monqy> have I ever mentioned how I hate swamp
08:14:50 <elliott> monqy: 7 is such a bad tree glyph
08:14:58 <elliott> probably "oh no we've run out of ascii"
08:16:01 <elliott> nice slime creatures mmmmmmm
08:16:05 <elliott> this looks like the worst branch
08:16:28 <monqy> swamp or abyss or something
08:16:46 <elliott> i kinda like abyss on account of being intentionally awful
08:16:51 <elliott> i cant imagine swamp was designed to be awful
08:17:01 <elliott> meleeing a powerful mdfi "good ideas"
08:17:33 <elliott> why do people like mountain dwarvs again i honestly dont get it
08:18:15 <Taneb> desert dwarves are so much better
08:18:50 <elliott> im not playing crawl light any more also jesus
08:18:50 <Taneb> (are desert dwarves a thing?)
08:18:54 <monqy> ugh i forgot to flight myself
08:19:10 <elliott> have you considered running
08:19:23 <elliott> also there's shallow water you could jump into!!!
08:19:48 <elliott> picking up the scrolls before you stop being flames
08:21:52 <monqy> ugh is this undead ending ugh
08:22:08 <elliott> monqy: joke's that the curses don't do anything also yuo're dying
08:22:44 <monqy> ah right, joke's I have scblink
08:23:21 <elliott> monqy: ps did you know you can train things not on the m list
08:26:06 <elliott> good thing crawl light has no monster regen!
08:26:16 <elliott> monqy: you're not on hard mode you realise
08:26:29 <elliott> monqy: dude the bee castle is
08:26:37 <elliott> takes 3 minutes with rPois more than 3 minutes with rPois
08:26:40 <elliott> monqy: it's not hive it's bee castle!
08:26:46 <elliott> special just for normal mode players
08:26:53 <elliott> ok monqy i guess you're just not up to
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08:28:25 <elliott> seems like you can't even handle normal mode monqy!!!
08:32:05 <elliott> monqy: actually im not sure the branches actually change with pandoora 2
08:32:09 <elliott> the branches above the barrier
08:32:25 <monqy> im not sure either!
08:34:09 <elliott> 09:32 <elliott> dtsund: Are the branches above the barrier affected by hard-mode?
08:34:10 <elliott> 09:32 <elliott> Or is it just the dungeon and branches below the barrier?
08:34:10 <elliott> 09:33 <dtsund> The latter.
08:34:12 <elliott> 09:33 <elliott> Okay, cool.
08:34:14 <elliott> 09:33 <dtsund> I didn't want to punish the player for opening the door early.
08:34:17 <elliott> 09:33 <elliott> But it still applies to the whole dungeon, right, not just the part below that barrier?
08:34:18 <elliott> 09:33 <dtsund> Of course, this means that 3-runers in Hard will probably eventually just want to get their third rune from Slime; I might have to move the Slime entrance.
08:34:20 <elliott> 09:33 <dtsund> Just the part below the barrier.
08:34:26 <elliott> "i guess you can wait then"
08:34:47 <elliott> monqy: 09:34 <dtsund> The hard-mode challenge prior to the barrier will be to conserve resources as much as possible, since item generation gets curtailed in hard-mode.
08:36:57 <elliott> monqy: I guess that's precluded by getting all yr items smashed/burned though!!!
08:39:33 <elliott> monqy: wow you get all the ghosts
08:39:42 <monqy> it shot iood at itself
08:40:21 <monqy> -dam but a lot of useful stuff
08:40:26 <elliott> You crush the merfolk like a grape!!!
08:40:29 <monqy> so i swap it on when i need sinv or rpois or something
08:40:54 <elliott> monqy: hope you feel conservational
08:41:51 <monqy> all i want is tukimas dance is that too much to ask for :(
08:42:19 <elliott> monqy: maybe you'll get it in hard mode if you hold on to yr items!!!
08:42:28 <elliott> "crawl light giveth; & also taketh away sometimes"
08:43:35 <elliott> monqy: yr spells look fun. i should play something that does spells next crawl ss/light game
08:43:47 <elliott> oh no i'm getting addicted to "yr" again
08:44:27 <elliott> that's why i'm getting addicted to it!!!
08:45:42 <elliott> oh wait its snapping turtle not alligator snapping turtle
08:48:58 <elliott> im doing my best monqy impression
08:49:16 <elliott> haste seems a bit "o p" to me!!!
08:49:17 <monqy> oh that's what the space was for
08:49:31 <monqy> light reverted the haste nerf
08:49:43 <elliott> well i do the space thing a lot now anyway because of you
08:49:47 <elliott> i try to control it but it's difficult!
08:50:13 <elliott> i dont like some of the things light does
08:53:55 <monqy> forgot to put on rpois
08:54:28 <elliott> nice hp - mitt romney, 4 ad
08:55:25 <elliott> monqy: see if crawl had a wishing system like nethack...
08:56:26 <elliott> _You see here Sif Muna's Almanac of Improving Self {god gift}.
08:56:35 <elliott> monqy: pretty passive-aggressive of sif muna imo
08:56:46 <elliott> "i wrote it myself just for you"
08:56:55 <oklofok> yay finally 8 hours of sleep ^^
08:57:27 <elliott> monqy: i have an imrpotrant theological question
08:57:31 <elliott> when you become the champion of $god
08:57:43 <elliott> what happens to all the other worshipper's piety???
08:58:02 <elliott> how come your piety is never decreased by other people becoming the champion IT ODESNTJ MAKE SENSE
08:59:21 <monqy> i've never cast it yet
08:59:33 <elliott> even the abbreviated name is beautiful
09:01:16 <elliott> monqy: staff of energy sounds overpowered imo
09:01:30 <monqy> it was nerfed in normal carwl
09:01:37 <elliott> "added to the monqy conduct list"
09:01:47 <HackEgo> 826) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes
09:02:10 <Patashu> what was the nerf in normal crawl
09:02:40 <monqy> elliott: it's acceptable in normal cawlr because hunger sucks
09:02:50 <monqy> meph on the other hand is making fights boring
09:02:55 <elliott> monqy: what does it do in normal crawl
09:03:02 <monqy> used to eliminate spell hunger
09:03:04 <monqy> now halves it or smth
09:03:35 <elliott> monqy: i have this fear that light's replacement of hunger with glow for most everything is going to end up reproducing the hunger mechanism
09:04:11 <monqy> it won't reproduce hunger but i don't like it because of resting glow off
09:04:15 <monqy> resting things off is eughgh
09:04:21 <elliott> monqy: right so if they remove resting it off...
09:04:36 <elliott> but yeah did you find hive
09:05:34 <elliott> quaff mut quaff mut quaff mut
09:05:35 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy update a number of minutes back
09:05:51 <elliott> (unless you have cure mut in which case quaff mut)
09:06:57 <elliott> monqy: see, not just bees!
09:07:11 <elliott> predicting deep water splat
09:07:42 <elliott> monqy: that's the pandoora lmao
09:07:43 <Patashu> maybe crawl light should keep a list of all hard looking monsters you've seen on the level. whenever the list clears your glow becomes 0 automatically
09:07:53 <elliott> are you skipping the rest of hive
09:07:55 <elliott> that's not fair you gotta get:
09:10:31 <elliott> monqy: think of it on the bright side
09:12:00 <elliott> monqy: btw i doubt your save will end up fixed
09:12:17 <elliott> monqy: through the combined powers of laziness and dtsund not having access to the server
09:12:31 <elliott> monqy: which server are you on
09:13:09 <elliott> why is elynae playing the tutorial
09:15:05 <elliott> it adds exclamation marks to yr rC
09:15:26 <elliott> is that fda what used to be xtahua
09:18:25 <elliott> monqy: this D:19 sure does look like vaults
09:19:54 <elliott> monqy: do you use macros; macros are weird
09:20:21 <monqy> I use macros myself but not so much on robins
09:20:48 <elliott> "I use macros myself" -- monqy "spacebar" monqys-surname
09:22:03 <monqy> and technically autofight is a lua macro that's hardcoded to be bound to tab
09:22:09 <monqy> so even you use macro
09:24:30 <elliott> monqy: anyway by macros i meant
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09:29:02 <monqy> twisted resurrection
09:29:24 <monqy> turns corpses into purmanent allies
09:29:29 <elliott> monqy: whats new resurectednjtwiste
09:29:47 <monqy> old twistedres turned stacks of corpses into permanent allies (the bigger the stack, the stronger the ally)
09:30:12 <monqy> new twistedres turns corpses into macabre masses and stuff which merge together into abominations so you don't have to play the corpse stacking game
09:31:56 <Patashu> it makes the spell better, yes
09:32:12 <elliott> monqy: what was the portal btw
09:33:04 <elliott> monqy: ps yuo've convinced me re movement energy randomisation
09:33:48 <elliott> time to show my support for the cause
09:34:51 <elliott> awaiting my paycheque from monqy
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09:35:35 <monqy> paycheque in thumbs up and a pat on the back
09:43:07 <elliott> monqy: the uppercase names scare me a bit. do they scare you.
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10:02:15 <Sgeo> elliott, I just remembered that the Crawl tutorial is broken
10:02:19 <Sgeo> I should tell someone
10:02:23 <elliott> yr missing MEPHITICCLOUD right now
10:02:32 <elliott> crawl.develz.org port 345 watch it stat it's the most hilarious crawl play ever
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10:07:16 <Sgeo> What's hilarious about it?
10:08:45 <elliott> Sgeo: you started watching just after the streak of really hilarious stuff stopped
10:08:54 <elliott> but maybe you saw the scroll-iding of a book!
10:09:23 <elliott> before that he miraculously berserked boris to death and then started dying after he started typing a note without pressing : first causing random things to happen
10:09:25 <Sgeo> I'm tempted to ask "Couldn't you just read the book?" but I guess that's why it's hilarious
10:09:46 <Sgeo> It's going a bit fast for me to process
10:09:54 <elliott> 11:02 <mikee_> i like how it sort of seems like monqy knows what he's doing
10:09:54 <elliott> 11:02 <mikee_> and then it quickly turns bad every time
10:10:02 <elliott> right now it's mostly boring grinding
10:10:06 <elliott> hence why it's going so fast
10:10:18 <Sgeo> Ping me if it gets interesting
10:10:30 <Sgeo> I'm looking for an image in Pidgin
10:14:33 <Sgeo> Something about should have bought a scroll
10:14:47 <elliott> it was exciting executioner melee
10:15:42 <Sgeo> Why is this ViewMTN thing being slow
10:16:11 <Sgeo> Why would you want to do what>
10:16:40 <elliott> Sgeo: its still interesting _Enter note: time to fcloud some demons with no rpois
10:16:47 <elliott> that's what it says if you try
10:17:16 <Sgeo> Chrome is being annoying :/
10:33:02 <elliott> monqy: duplicate firbeall?
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13:26:38 <itidus20> ok guys, heres a puzzle: eee, esw, ese, ene, een, ees, ense
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13:34:32 <Sgeo> itidus20, looks like compass directions
13:35:24 <Sgeo> Well, not a good guess
13:36:44 <Sgeo> 3e,3e1s,5e2s,7e1s,9e,11e1s,13e1s
13:37:08 <Sgeo> I have no idea how that is useful, nor whether that's correct
13:40:12 <itidus20> All I will say is that there is a meaning to it all, and it's fairly unambiguous once you see it. >:-)
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13:47:47 <itidus20> ok to help out.. there are some isomorphic ways the puzzle could be presented
13:50:03 <itidus20> the puzzle could also be presented isomorphically: sss, sen, wnw, wsw, sww, nww, wnsw
13:50:24 <itidus20> i dunno if the word isomorphic is appropriate here though..
13:50:52 <itidus20> but the ultimate meaning of the puzzle is the same for both
13:52:53 <itidus20> www, sen, wnw, wsw, sww, nww, wnsw
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14:00:27 <itidus20> Sgeo: ok i'll put it another way that might help, ok? :D
14:00:40 <Sgeo> Sorry, wasn't paying attention
14:01:40 <itidus20> Sgeo: here it is reformulated eeee, eswn, ense, eese, eene, eeen, eees
14:05:06 * Sgeo is reading http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Radar/Animaniacs
14:07:14 <itidus20> ok ok ill just spell it out cos its not really worth going on about any longer.. its compass directions to draw tetris pieces >:-)
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17:32:41 <oklofok> itidus21: i guessed that it meant that but i didn't realize in my head that those were the tetris pieces, is there a consolation price for being that stupid?
17:33:19 <itidus21> i drew them first on paper.. and i had written abcd in the boxes
17:33:27 <itidus21> and i got the idea while stareing at them
17:34:24 <itidus21> first of all its confusing because.. i included the initial position
17:34:54 <itidus21> also.. its confusing because it acts as if tetris pieces are set in stone
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17:37:17 <itidus21> i mean like eee kind of means o->o->o->o .. and eeee was like saying.. ->o->o->o->o
17:38:07 <itidus21> and then www was like saying o<-o<-o<-o
17:43:14 <itidus21> i think if i included an extra character like p for pen toggle.. then it would become more useful
17:43:57 <itidus21> and start coming closer to being an esolang component
17:47:03 <itidus21> *e*e*e*, *e*s*w*, *e*s*e*, *e*n*e*, *e*e*n*, *e*e*s*, *e*n*se*
17:50:29 <itidus21> or to make it a complete program with spacing: *e*e*e*,eee *e*s*w*,eee *e*s*e*,eee *e*n*e*,eee *e*e*n*,eee *e*e*s*,eee *e*n*se*
17:57:31 <oklofok> well mostly it was confusing that i have very little working memory
17:57:59 <oklofok> and presumably made some errors, i need east and west daily, but i still tend to confuse them :/
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18:00:40 <itidus21> oklofok: well it helps in australia.. we have this state called western australia which might be about the same size as scandinavia
18:01:02 <itidus21> we also have a state called south australia
18:01:10 <itidus21> and a territory named northern territory
18:01:31 <oklofok> well we have western and eastern finland, it doesn't help.
18:01:53 <itidus21> yes but western australia has nothing in it.. it's essentially a giant desert
18:02:05 <oklofok> it still takes a second or so to check which is which unless i've used them in the last 10 minutes, and if i forget to check, occasionally they are the wrong way around.
18:02:15 <itidus21> i often refer to it to work out which is which
18:04:19 <itidus21> norway area: 385,252 km^2 .. western australia area: 2,645,615 km^2
18:04:36 <itidus21> i don't know why i started with norway
18:07:33 <itidus21> but yeah.. clearly easily dwarfs it
18:07:48 <itidus21> giant giant state full of little more than desert
18:09:19 <itidus21> i suppose the idea is that since up doesn't change much
18:09:47 <itidus21> but east and west (of us) are always changing
18:11:09 <itidus21> then crazy shigeru miyamoto decides his characters should leap between spheres
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18:12:14 <itidus21> i have known of paintfuck.. its kind of disturbing i think about tetris pieces in paintfuck terms
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18:15:56 <olsner> so who highlighted me sometime during the past 5 days?
18:18:03 <itidus21> 2012-05-19 18:51:57: <Taneb> `quote 18:52:06: <HackEgo> 831) <olsner> they call finnish human-readable?
18:18:47 <itidus21> 2012-05-18 02:22:30: <HackEgo> 785) <olsner> what a world it would be if you could actually *steal* code so that the other project has to rewrite it or infiltrate your project to steal it back
18:19:15 <itidus21> lmao.. too many quotes to list
18:26:48 <nortti_> what language were you talking about?
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20:03:31 -!- Gregor has set topic: This just in: Americans place kangaroos in the alps to avoid awkwardness from poor country name recollection | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:16:08 <nortti_> don't worry. that message will be in my awaylog when I get to check it in aproximately 16 hours
20:20:44 <oklofok> nortti_: is that an automated message?
20:20:54 <oklofok> i probably couldn've looked at the timestemps
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20:28:45 <itidus21> if 3d is projection from 3d space onto 2d space
20:29:27 <itidus21> i wonder what kind of space that some line art and pixel art projects from
20:31:01 <itidus21> cell shading seems to think 3d is the answer
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21:05:15 <monqy> wow what a coincidence i just woke up
21:06:09 <elliott> monqy: sometimes i say something to people on the exact same second they say something to me after 30 minutes plus of silence
21:06:56 <elliott> 14:37:17: -!- Gregor changed the topic of #esoteric to: not Tom Morow's topic | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
21:07:03 <elliott> we had a whole plan and everything
21:08:52 <elliott> wow dtsund casts meph constantly
21:09:03 <elliott> i bet light reversed the meph nerf too
21:09:26 <monqy> i forget when it was added
21:09:35 <monqy> i think meph was nerfed multiple times
21:10:28 <Gregor> <elliott> we had a whole plan and everything <elliott> you broke it! // 's what I do.
21:10:48 <elliott> monqy: huh Enchanter got renamed to Sorcerer in light
21:11:06 <monqy> light's ench split is a bit different than crawl's
21:11:35 <monqy> i think instead of charm/hex it did enchantments/sorcery and sorcery also includes venom magic?
21:11:51 <ais523> elliott: not quite renamed, they merged the schools differently
21:11:55 <ais523> so it's not quite an identical role
21:12:05 <monqy> and for normal crawl eronarn wants to replace venom magic with alchemy which would also steal some of tmut's spells
21:14:50 <elliott> afaict crawl light started out by making the game worse by massively un-nerfing everything
21:15:13 <elliott> https://github.com/dtsund/dtsund-crawl-mod/commit/f71b56fc71d2161b418bcd1cb93691ba6596b114 this is good though
21:16:11 <monqy> i remember reading the original crawl light announcement and thinking it was silly but then i talked to dtsund and changed my mind. i forget what the original announcement had in it though
21:17:08 <elliott> were mountain dwarves removed before they started it. i have this sneaking suspicion he likes mountain dwarves
21:17:25 <elliott> (i really really hate stereotypical tolkein/d&d-style fantasy)
21:17:31 <elliott> (only dwarf fortress can get away with that)
21:17:53 <monqy> you know who else really hates tolkein/d&d-style fantasy?
21:18:43 <elliott> thanks for copying my typo monqy
21:18:48 <elliott> that one was accidental!!!
21:18:49 <monqy> i don't know how to spell either
21:19:04 <elliott> i used to know how to spell
21:19:08 <monqy> so i just copied your spelling on the assumption that it was either correct or a splendid typo
21:19:39 <monqy> i think dtsund has been asked about removing one of mi/md and said he might do it?? i forget the exact conversation that went down
21:20:12 <elliott> monqy: check #crawllight the joke is
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21:33:16 <elliott> monqy: maybe you can open the second pandoora after all!!!
21:34:04 <elliott> ais523: you just missed a great bug in #CrawlLight
21:34:37 <elliott> 22:29 <elliott> hahahahaha
21:34:37 <elliott> 22:29 <elliott> if(you.dactions[i] == DACT_SEAL_PANDOORA)
21:34:37 <elliott> 22:29 <elliott> lua_pushboolean(ls, true);
21:34:48 <elliott> 22:30 <elliott> this isn't python :)
21:36:47 <elliott> # overall difficulty level when opened. Behind the door is a scroll of
21:36:47 <elliott> # acquirement, which can be read or given to an Abyss portal later for a shot
21:37:16 <olsner> elliott: are you sure that's a bug and not just intentionally obfuscated?
21:38:02 <elliott> I didn't realise anyone actually made errors like that
21:38:10 <elliott> it's like the if (1 == x) stuff
21:38:17 <olsner> the funny spelling of PANDOOORA is perhaps funnier
21:38:42 <elliott> it's intentional; the Pandooras are doors
21:39:02 <olsner> oh, I see, that's clever
21:40:42 <elliott> monqy: oh wow i just looked up what tukimsa is
21:42:09 <olsner> I kind of wonder why it's only testing a single DACT in an if (instead of e.g. a switch), and why it's working on dactions[i] (it's in a loop that looks for pandoooras?)
21:42:30 <elliott> olsner: yes, it's in a loop to check whether the pandoora was opened or not
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21:48:49 <elliott> Hmm, I wonder where the movement energy code is.
21:52:17 <monqy> apparently undoing energy randomisation is actually implemented in mcrawl so you could look there
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21:52:40 * elliott is considering implementing squarelos & unrandomised movement energy for crawl-light.
21:53:08 <elliott> Reid Barton pushed 2448 commits to ~rwbarton/crawl/mcrawl:mcrawl. View diff
21:53:42 <monqy> that's probably merging master in
21:54:06 <monqy> could pull mcrawl's master and mcrawl and diff them idk
21:55:14 <elliott> 22:54 <CIA-68> crawl-light: Derrick Sund cl-trunk * rc298457 / crawl-ref/source/monster.cc : Unrandomize monster energy loss. - http://git.io/_YD1zA
22:01:17 <elliott> Does anybody actually understand Cont? (self.haskell)
22:01:17 <elliott> submitted 52 minutes ago by drb226
22:03:21 * ais523 vaguely wonders how many votes you'd get for answering "no"
22:03:57 <elliott> I was considering being a smug jerk and linking to my really long explanation of Cont.
22:08:23 <elliott> 23:03 <dtsund> You want I should try to repair it in some way?
22:08:23 <elliott> 23:04 <elliott> I think monqy was hoping it could be
22:08:23 <elliott> 23:04 <elliott> but you'd have to ask him
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22:11:14 <elliott> monqy: btw I was trying to figure out what the Euclidean equivalent of circlelos is... i.e. assuming Chebyshev distance, Crawl's circlelos is shorter on the diagonals than it should be
22:11:32 <elliott> I think Crawl's los would be a diamond were it in Euclidean space
22:11:50 <elliott> that probably didn't make any sense
22:12:03 <Gregor> Wikipedia sez: Did you know ... that The Lego Group produced 381 million tires (example pictured) in 2011, making it the largest tire manufacturer in the world?
22:12:22 <elliott> Gregor: oh it'll be `a different lego'
22:12:40 <elliott> monqy: Euclidean space : circle LOS :: Chebyshev space : square LOS
22:12:49 <elliott> monqy: Chebyshev space : circle LOS :: Euclidean space : ?
22:13:19 <monqy> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
22:13:23 <elliott> i.e. if you have a transformation Chebyshev square LOS --> Euclidean circle LOS
22:13:29 <elliott> Chebyshev circle LOS --> Euclidean ? LOS
22:13:47 <elliott> I was trying to get an intuition for what circle LOS actually does to your LOS
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22:15:24 <elliott> monqy: do you know what the best aprt is
22:16:34 <elliott> monqy: the other best part is that you're going to have a hell of a time finding tukima's with hard mode's curtailed item generation
22:17:35 <elliott> monqy: but you can get it from sif right
22:17:43 <monqy> that's the only reason i'm sif
22:18:32 <monqy> if i had found tukimas in the first pandoora then i would have either gone some other god or tso right from the start
22:18:50 <monqy> (but i didnt found)
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22:36:15 <itidus21> http://oi50.tinypic.com/muzm9y.jpg
22:37:06 <Vorpal> monqy, what is the topic? Some game?
22:37:31 <Vorpal> (except that only makes sense for the last few lines??)
22:37:39 <elliott> (a fork of Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup)
22:37:48 <elliott> ((a continuation of Linley's Dungeon Crawl))
22:37:49 <Vorpal> is it better or worse?
22:37:55 <elliott> better in some ways; worse than others
22:38:12 <elliott> (it removes hunger and identification and curses)
22:38:17 <Vorpal> I never got around to playing any version of crawl
22:38:31 <Vorpal> oh come on, hunger is an integral part of the genre!
22:38:41 <elliott> you have clearly never played crawl
22:39:05 <elliott> if we're going to judge all roguelikes by rogue then games aren't allowed to have upstairs either
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22:39:12 <itidus21> this is a drawing i made just now, with some relation to brainfuck: http://oi50.tinypic.com/muzm9y.jpg
22:39:29 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway in crawl hunger mostly serves to just annoy you
22:39:31 <Vorpal> I played angband (or was it zangband? well, some angband version anyway), a tiny bit of ADOM (don't remember much details), nethack, slash'EM
22:39:43 <elliott> it doesn't really have any effect on the game except sometimes you have to kill something once in a while
22:39:56 <elliott> (which is pretty easy, since monsters regenerate)
22:40:13 <Vorpal> well, that isn't like hunger in nethack then
22:40:22 <elliott> hunger in nethack is pretty crappy too
22:40:23 <Vorpal> where it is a real threat, especially at low level
22:40:44 <elliott> crawl's id game is also really boring
22:41:01 <elliott> read iding scrolls is trivial to make safe; quaff iding potions is a bad idea
22:41:25 <Vorpal> what about iding gems?
22:41:29 <elliott> so you just read all scrolls you come across, and use scrolls of identify on potions and jewellery that doesn't use-id
22:41:53 <elliott> crawl's cursing is also really boring, it just means you can't unwield/take off/etc. the item
22:42:08 <Vorpal> well nethack has a bit of variation there
22:42:14 <elliott> the only time it's ever really a problem is when you curse your weapon and it's blunt
22:42:19 <elliott> which stops you chopping corpses
22:42:21 <Vorpal> quite a bit of variation, especially cursed scrolls and potions and so on
22:42:24 <elliott> and then you starve or waste your permafood
22:44:10 <zzo38> Yesterday I was in Victoria
22:44:10 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:44:15 <zzo38> I also played Dungeons&Dragons game
22:44:20 <elliott> What a coincidence! I wasn't.
22:44:24 <lambdabot> nortti said 27d 6h 24m 36s ago: Myhell script gopher client: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28915864/shgopher
22:44:24 <lambdabot> Taneb said 1d 7h 52m 58s ago: Thoughts on Prelude.Generalize: Data.Semigroups rather than Data.Monoid, perhaps? (maybe)
22:46:09 <itidus21> zzo38: maybe you are the one i am showing this to! http://oi50.tinypic.com/muzm9y.jpg
22:46:27 <zzo38> I have plan for Dungeons&Dragons game, somehow trick the chancellor into a trap, see if there is any beholder as a member of the wizard guild, save the king, barter for services and scrolls due to lack of money.....
22:46:43 <elliott> oh wait that's a real word
22:47:15 <Vorpal> I remember one game of nethack where by chance I ended up with a load of gain level potions (20 or so). So I cursed them and used them to quickly ascend after I got the amulet.
22:47:50 <elliott> Vorpal: good thing you're not DeathOnAStick
22:48:14 <elliott> DeathOnAStick is a NetHack player. He/she is famous in the NetHack community for their year-and-a-half-long game on nethack.alt.org, from 2004-04-17 to 2005-11-27. They spent much of this time arduously polypiling rocks into gems and collecting pet giants to carry the abundant bags of gems for them.
22:48:14 <elliott> After killing the Wizard of Yendor on dungeon level 1, they drank a potion of gain level found on its corpse. It was cursed, as it turned out.
22:48:16 <elliott> Upon reaching the Plane of Earth, they desperately checked their inventory, and indeed they were carrying no gems. At this point, they went idle for 38 seconds. A few of their entourage of giants had been close enough to be dragged into the Planes with them, but they were either killed off or left behind at the inter-plane portals. Ultimately, the only gems DeathOnAStick had at their ascension were 2 dilithium crystals.
22:48:44 <elliott> whole dungeon levels filled with gems
22:49:07 <elliott> Vorpal: the good ending is [[He/she tried again years later, ascending after 405 hours on August 16, 2010 with over 8,000 gems.]]
22:49:10 <elliott> i watched it as it happened
22:49:18 <elliott> half the time was spend shoving the giants around
22:49:40 <Vorpal> well I would never be able to bring myself to do that
22:50:22 <zzo38> I have proof that the demon has something to do with them, I borrowed one of the false guard's dagger and give it back, now I learned the demon is 2200 years old and the guard is also evil (human), the king's bed was filled with a magic dummy, and I believe the chancellor is bad person too
22:50:35 <Vorpal> (Speaking of tedious things, who in their right mind plays EVE Online...)
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22:50:53 <elliott> eve is something you read about after the fact, not actually participate in
22:51:00 <elliott> i would read an eve newspaper
22:51:15 <Vorpal> the politics and so on can be quite interesting.
22:51:24 <Vorpal> I just can't imagine ever /playing/ it
22:51:47 <Vorpal> it seems to me to be basically Spreadsheet: The Game
22:52:03 <elliott> to be fair they say the same about dwarf fortress
22:52:36 <Vorpal> well, I never done more than a couple of calculations for df really, and that was when invading hell.
22:53:01 <Vorpal> (or do you mean more generally? Then: sure, yeah)
22:53:11 <itidus21> i'm always trying to promote participation
22:53:28 <Vorpal> itidus21, in specific or in general?
22:53:47 <itidus21> well.... this is probably the reason i never finished a game
22:54:04 <itidus21> and eventually i forgot how to program.. blah.. this isn't my hour
22:55:32 <itidus21> anyway.. here is how i think brainfuck would look as a game: http://oi50.tinypic.com/muzm9y.jpg
22:55:37 <Vorpal> elliott, hm anyway how did he get the gems into his inventory in the end? Because iirc you need your things to be in your inventory for it to count in the score?
22:57:59 <elliott> "They spent much of this time arduously polypiling rocks into gems and collecting pet giants to carry the abundant bags of gems for them."
22:58:26 <itidus21> Vorpal: well like.. a lot of games have an attack button... i think that almost prevents players really participating in the attack.. this is what appeals to me most about motion controls
22:58:29 <Vorpal> yes quite, but do what they carry count in the score? Or do you have to get them into your own inventory at the very last step?
22:59:09 <elliott> Vorpal: I presume what they carry counts
22:59:27 <monqy> i dunno how i got thos
22:59:57 <Vorpal> itidus21, which system are you talking about? From what I heard some of them are pretty bad
23:00:42 <elliott> (also, are you going to enchant that gsc or are you waiting for something else?)
23:00:45 <itidus21> Vorpal: you're right.... but the idea at least behind motion controls is good. instead of just hitting a button and letting the avatar have all the fun.. even though the execution isn't great
23:01:18 <Vorpal> itidus21, you can have more advanced combat with a mouse and keyboard too
23:01:50 <itidus21> qwop lets you participate in running more than just holding the right arrow.. but it's intentionally difficult
23:01:54 <Vorpal> itidus21, like Mount & Blade does. Where you have to attack and parry with different strength in different direction
23:02:18 <Vorpal> never played it, watched some videos though, seems fun
23:02:52 <itidus21> it's not actually fun.. its painful..
23:03:18 <elliott> but not as good as that other one
23:03:36 <Vorpal> ah okay, I was talking about the example I gave
23:03:44 <Vorpal> anyway qwop is absurd yeah
23:04:33 <monqy> Vorpal: that other one.
23:04:35 <Vorpal> hm will check that out when I'm on a computer with flash
23:04:41 <itidus21> but as annoying as they are, i gotta give qwop and girp credit that tey encourage active participation
23:04:56 <elliott> Vorpal: It's... an unpleasant experience.
23:05:11 <Vorpal> elliott, sure, but I'm sure I can stand 20 seconds or so of it :P
23:05:28 <elliott> Vorpal: But it's the only game that has managed to get thousands of people to dig their fingers into keys like their life depended on it.
23:05:31 <Vorpal> itidus21, I'm not sure that is needed in all games. RTS manage just fine without it for example.
23:06:04 <itidus21> ive never used the word participation before about games.. so im throwing it about
23:06:14 <Vorpal> elliott, do you have to hold on to something or what?
23:07:10 <Vorpal> speaking of which: shadow of colossus. Awesome game. Played a bit of it recently at a friend's place. Pity it is PS2/PS3 exclusive.
23:07:34 <Vorpal> in reply to which line?
23:08:00 <elliott> The one that was a question.
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23:09:18 <Vorpal> itidus21, you should totally play Shadow of Colossus some time. Awesome game. I mean, everything is just awesome. Can't think of a single complaint about it.
23:10:36 <monqy> maybe i should play shadow of the colossus some time. i hear it's an awesome game.
23:10:41 <Vorpal> okay I have a computer with flash next to me now
23:10:53 <itidus21> well i have ideas about games using rube goldberg machines to build weapons in a game.
23:10:55 <Vorpal> wait what the fuck... those girp key bindings look weird
23:11:12 <Vorpal> how is that even possible with the "use the mouse rather than ctrl" variant
23:12:10 <itidus21> foddy is a sadistic bastard, so i'm sure it won't be easy whatever control scheme you use
23:12:30 <elliott> Vorpal: The terrible part is that the layout of the cliff is different to the keyboard layout.
23:12:33 <elliott> So you constantly let go of the wrong keys.
23:13:52 <Gregor> <elliott> Vorpal: The terrible part is that the layout of the cliff is different to the keyboard layout. // quite intentionally so, of course.
23:13:54 <Vorpal> actually that isn't causing such a big problem really, for me it is the coordination that fails
23:14:13 <Vorpal> wrt releasing shift and whatever key I want to move
23:14:21 <Vorpal> anyway, yeah I gave up
23:14:44 <Vorpal> still not as tricky as qwop, I actually got a few letters up in this game
23:14:57 <itidus21> Gregor: i wonder what unimplemented games foddy has planned...
23:15:08 <Vorpal> what was that weird game I saw recently...
23:15:37 <itidus21> cr1tikal on youtube seems to review all the weird games
23:16:05 <itidus21> yeah ... i have strange tastes
23:16:12 <itidus21> he did 2 attempted lets plays of oregon trail
23:16:45 <Vorpal> what is the issue with that game now again? I don't remember
23:16:51 <itidus21> his attempt at qwop is on wiki as a reference
23:17:24 <elliott> it's hardly a reliable source
23:17:30 <itidus21> well because he apparently triggered the chain of events that made it famous
23:17:48 <itidus21> he reviewed it, and then a famous guy reviewed his review
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23:18:32 <Gregor> Happy Wheels is pretty amusing.
23:18:51 <Gregor> It's not like a Foddy game though, it's a legit game that's not stupidly difficult or hard to play.
23:19:07 <elliott> i've forgotten how to use git :(
23:19:20 <zzo38> elliott: Does the man page help?
23:19:24 <Gregor> elliott: http://hg-git.github.com/
23:19:31 <elliott> Gregor: that'd be even worse, I'd have to use hg
23:22:14 <Vorpal> Hm aesthetically Happy Wheels is one of the uglier games I can think of
23:22:47 <itidus21> elliott: i would say try water incase of dehydration, try getting a good temperature, try sugary if your blood sugar is low, some weird woman suggested protein for headaches
23:22:49 <elliott> note: b438b77489bdf288300303b2d1428781f964b8c3
23:24:57 <itidus21> visiting the toilet might also help
23:24:58 <Gregor> Also, reciting sequences of hexadecimal digits in a loud, droning monotone is good for headaches.
23:27:40 <Vorpal> I wonder if there is cvs-git...
23:27:57 <itidus21> looking at pinup girls may potentially help too, but this is probably a last resort
23:28:04 <Vorpal> (or git-cvs, that would be amazing too)
23:28:40 <Vorpal> elliott, and if nothing else helps you could always use headache medicine.
23:28:49 <Vorpal> usually rather unhealthy though
23:28:59 <itidus21> lol vorpal, you and your wild ideas...
23:29:11 <Vorpal> itidus21, yeah, I like to think out of the box sometime
23:31:39 <itidus21> if you need a distraction empty your wallet into a garbage bag full of rubbish, shake it about, and then try and retrieve all your items
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23:33:11 <Vorpal> itidus21, you could also try dropping a needle into a haystack. Then stir it thoroughly and try to locate the needle again.
23:33:57 <itidus21> well you just wouldn't have sufficient motivation
23:34:34 <Gregor> "garbage bag full of rubbish" <-- what dialect has garbage bags full of rubbish ...
23:34:38 <elliott> monqy: oh you're playing again!
23:34:46 <Vorpal> itidus21, what if it was a very valuable needle? Maybe a collector item, worth a few thousand euros to the right buyer?
23:35:11 <Gregor> Really? Hm. elliott: Are they "garbage bags" in the UK?
23:35:24 <elliott> Gregor: I doubt it. But I really don't know my own dialect any more, sorry.
23:35:42 <elliott> Gregor: The internet has mixed them all up for me.
23:35:50 <elliott> monqy: did i miss anything exciting :(
23:36:07 <elliott> monqy: did I miss anything unexciting
23:36:27 <Gregor> I wonder what the bags are in Canada ... I know the bins and actual detritus are litter, which is not only an uncommon word but a different meaning in every other dialect.
23:36:28 <elliott> monqy: what unexciting things did i miss :'(
23:36:33 <elliott> Gregor: Filled with milk, that's what.
23:36:52 <monqy> osme slime critters and stuff
23:37:17 <elliott> he means some slime creatures hth
23:37:29 <Vorpal> I just found the typo funny
23:37:52 <Vorpal> elliott, and where can I see this?
23:37:57 <elliott> telnet light.bitprayer.com, watch squarelos
23:38:23 <elliott> black background (but crawl sets that itself)
23:38:42 <Vorpal> elliott, well I'm going to have to use putty atm. Here goes nothing...
23:38:52 <elliott> there's no unicode or anything, it should work fine
23:39:08 <elliott> monqy: maybe you should train armour and dodindg etc
23:39:42 <monqy> no use for aermour
23:39:56 <Vorpal> elliott, how do I send mail to the player in this game? That is always fun in nethack
23:40:05 <elliott> Vorpal: the server can't do that yet
23:40:08 <elliott> the file location is messed up
23:40:15 <elliott> you can press "m" to pretend
23:40:18 <elliott> you need to register an account though
23:40:42 <Vorpal> is there a secure version of it then?
23:41:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know his password?
23:41:25 <elliott> monqy: what's squarelos' password
23:41:35 <Vorpal> that would be silly :P
23:41:56 <monqy> i'll be right back
23:42:13 <elliott> Vorpal: you didn't even get to see the wonders of crawl's autoexplore!
23:42:23 <Vorpal> need to be up early tomorrow, expecting a call by 8:00 tomorrow
23:42:36 <Vorpal> well, 8:00 or later, can't afford to miss it
23:42:55 <elliott> what kind of job starts at 8:00
23:43:05 <Vorpal> elliott, most normal ones
23:43:21 <Vorpal> 8:00-17:00 is the normal work hours
23:43:37 <Vorpal> (anyway I won't start until a few weeks later)
23:44:14 <Vorpal> elliott, you are in for a BIG surprise later :P
23:50:25 <itidus21> he means the worst possible interpretation!
23:54:25 <olsner> Vorpal is in hexham, gearing up for a home invasion
23:54:46 <elliott> the helsinki army will potect us
23:57:37 <olsner> they probably only protect people who say it right the first time
23:58:04 <shachaf> What abstracts the pattern foo [] = undefined; foo [x] = x; foo (x:x':xs) = foo (...x...x'...xs)?
23:58:10 <olsner> enjoy your invaded home(s)
00:01:55 <elliott> shachaf: i don't get the pattern
00:02:39 <shachaf> length (...x...x'...xs) == length xs - 1
00:02:55 <shachaf> I guess it's a bit of a strange pattern.
00:05:58 <shachaf> Really [] is the wrong thing to use here anyway.
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00:08:20 <zzo38> Is (Free (Writer x)) like (Writer [x]) ?
00:16:17 <zzo38> If in Haskell you have a random bit interface, then the class to generate random values of a type could be: class GenRandom x where { genRandom :: Free ((->) Bool) x; }; And now you can od this: instance (GenRandom x, GenRandom y) => GenRandom (x, y) where { genRandom = liftPair (genRandom, genRandom); };
00:19:18 <zzo38> instance GenRandom Bool where { genRandom = Free Pure; }; instance GenRandom () where { genRandom = Pure (); };
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00:35:53 <elliott> removing the spel you cast every 3 turns is funy
00:36:14 <elliott> it is if i want it to be!!!
00:36:30 <monqy> im plan to remove all sources of flight/lev in monqys-crawl
00:36:38 <monqy> take that, science
00:37:19 <monqy> because all reasons for it existing are awful and should be undone
00:38:10 <monqy> well boosting swiftness was already removed in vanilla so that's not one of them
00:38:45 <monqy> in particular levitation is awful because of the whole being flight but you have to wait for it to time out before you can interact with items thing
00:39:36 <monqy> maybe it has "interesting tactical uses" in few cases but normally if you're in an area with deep water or lava you maintain it, and if you don't have it, you don't go there
00:40:39 <elliott> monqy: yeah im fine with items being interactable all the time
00:41:32 <monqy> i don't know what to do with water/lava since i don't quite want to do the full mcrawl with them but they're awful as-is too
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01:21:42 <ion> I just finished this week’s electronics homework.
01:23:15 <monqy> there are many weeks containing today !
01:23:35 <ion> Whichever week it is in Massachusetts.
01:23:47 <monqy> that's not helpful
01:24:07 <elliott> monqy: what week is it in california :(
01:24:50 <monqy> there are many weeks containing today !
01:24:55 <monqy> which week do you mean
01:25:20 <monqy> there's a week starting today, a week ending today, a week with today as the second day,
01:25:37 <monqy> there is no week with today as the eighth day because weeks do not have eight days
01:26:24 <ion> The deadline is in 2½ hours AFAIU.
01:26:32 <elliott> monqy: maybe some weeks do!
01:26:58 <ion> monqy: Weeks don’t have eight days? Which planet are you on?
01:27:46 <ion> quintopia: yeah
01:28:01 <elliott> monqy: the only planet ever founded by the ancient roman plato
01:28:24 <ion> quintopia: It has been great. I’ve wanted to learn electronics since i was a kid.
01:28:30 <quintopia> elliott: who was the ancient roman plato
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01:29:05 <quintopia> ion: i learned some electronics by reading the ARRL handbook and various websites. i find it is better to learn by doing.
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01:30:57 <elliott> quintopia: the ancient roman plato was the founder of the planet plauto
01:31:41 <quintopia> elliott: thanks for the circularity. the real question is whether the ancient roman plato was a philosopher like plato was
01:31:54 <elliott> you mean the ancient roman?
01:32:20 <quintopia> no i was referring to the greek philosopher, student of socrates
01:32:54 <quintopia> well, who is going to inhabit your made-up planet if i don't?
01:33:19 <elliott> monqy: what is quintopia on about
01:35:30 <monqy> about the ancient roman plato
01:36:04 <monqy> very dead and very on
01:37:23 <elliott> monqy: oh no your client puts a space after the <
01:37:28 <elliott> please fix, please fix, please fix
01:37:35 <elliott> it hurts me more than anything
01:38:32 <monqy> i'm not going to fix it
01:38:45 <monqy> i actually kind of like it??
01:39:03 <monqy> im gojing to do it
01:39:19 <monqy> 18:39:10 < elliott> stop
01:39:20 <monqy> 18:39:12 < elliott> fix it
01:39:20 <monqy> 18:39:14 < elliott> fix it now
01:39:31 <monqy> i'd bold the spaces but
01:39:44 -!- elliott has quit.
01:39:46 <monqy> you could just VERSION me
01:40:06 -!- elliott has joined.
01:40:57 <elliott> /set show_nickmode_empty off
01:41:18 <ion> Don’t do it.
01:41:26 <monqy> i;m not going to do it
01:41:40 <ion> I’m not your buddy, pal!
01:41:42 <monqy> what's your problem with the spaces
01:41:51 <elliott> they're asymmetric wrt the >
01:42:02 <elliott> the < looks horribly disconnected from the nick itself, esp. as <> aren't really the greatest enclosers in the first place
01:42:06 <ion> They’re symmetric wrt. the @, +
01:42:15 <elliott> it means that you break everyone else's awk scripts
01:42:21 <elliott> monqy: nobody's @ and + on freenode!!!
01:42:24 <elliott> if you're going to align things like that
01:42:25 <ion> Everyone else’s awk scripts suck.
01:42:26 <monqy> their awk scrips can go die
01:42:29 <elliott> you should be using right-aligned nicks
01:42:33 <monqy> i see @ and + all the time
01:42:44 <elliott> if you don't want that : don't put a space after the <!
01:42:52 <elliott> monqy: well they're ~breaking network guidelines~ so there
01:43:27 <monqy> maybe it'd look better if you used monospac font
01:43:42 <elliott> ive used monospaced font on irc you shit!!!!!!!!! :'(
01:43:45 <elliott> it was still hideous even then!
01:43:47 <zzo38> What awk scripts do you mean?
01:44:21 <elliott> monqy: i can;t believe youre so wrong
01:44:43 <elliott> you are so wrong about this
01:44:56 <monqy> you havent given me one good reason !!!!!
01:45:12 <elliott> wrt. not aligning the >s but aligning the @s and non-@s
01:45:16 <monqy> it's consistent with @ and + etc
01:45:18 <elliott> theres no justifiable reason to "align"
01:45:21 <monqy> which is what matters to me
01:45:24 <elliott> when there's no alignment of the messages itself
01:45:45 <elliott> olsner: you have good opinions right
01:45:51 <elliott> olsner: "< nick> blah" is an abomination right
01:47:05 <elliott> every message you receive with that setting is a personal affront against me
01:47:24 <monqy> 18:46:56 < elliott> monqy: stop
01:47:28 <monqy> as u can see: i have not stoped
01:50:15 <ion> http://heh.fi/tmp/mirc.png
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01:51:02 <monqy> perhaps it also looks better on my client than eliots because the < and > are all dark grey and so is the timestamp
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02:08:33 <monqy> 19:08:30 <monqy> h
02:08:36 <monqy> 19:08:33 <monqy> 19:08:30 <monqy> h
02:08:38 <monqy> 19:08:36 <monqy> 19:08:33 <monqy> 19:08:30 <monqy> h
02:08:53 <monqy> everything looks weird
02:09:02 <ion> ma050833 monqy 19:08:30 <monqy> h
02:09:07 <monqy> this will take some "getting used to"
02:09:22 <ion> Don’t succumb to eliot’s whims!
02:09:53 <monqy> he finally got me with `addquote
02:10:42 <elliott> vision of a terrifying world:
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02:10:48 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/</< /g' quotes
02:11:07 <HackEgo> 390) < oklofok> what would you ever need petrol for < oklofok> newsflash: it doesn't actually taste that good
02:11:10 <monqy> oh no what if you messed up something importante
02:11:12 <HackEgo> 428) < ais523> the thing about modern semiconductor design is, 0s are more powerful as 1s
02:11:26 <HackEgo> 621) < fizzie> Spacegoat is the network-operations-optimized-for-latency-of-minutes-or-hours-due-to-light-speed-limits variant of scapegoat, to be used when you need to check out some code from the Mars colony. < fizzie> (I'm pretty sure we'll have established a Mars colony by the time scapegoat rolls out.)
02:11:26 <HackEgo> 486) < pikhq> I actually had a Neopets account. I later gained a second digit in my age.
02:11:26 <HackEgo> 147) < fungot> pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?"
02:12:33 <HackEgo> *poof* <ais523> the thing about modern semiconductor design is, 0s are more powerful as 1s
02:12:38 <elliott> @tell ais523 sorry get out of the ay bug im writing an important message
02:12:42 <monqy> ok im actually starting to be bothered by the lack of spaces after <s help
02:12:50 <monqy> i need to fix this in some way
02:13:08 <shachaf> monqy: I hate spaces after <s. :-(
02:13:08 <elliott> monqy: replace the <>s with {}s "it'll burn in a different way"
02:13:27 <elliott> monqy: imo just set them to background colour
02:13:30 <monqy> maybe i'll just use nospaces until i get used to it
02:13:43 <elliott> shachaf: do you hate coloured nicks too
02:13:44 <monqy> elliott: they're almost the background colour
02:13:48 <elliott> like where the nicks are coloured based on their text
02:13:56 <elliott> i dont mind if other people use it
02:13:57 <shachaf> elliott: Are you calling me an IRC racist. :-(
02:14:36 <shachaf> I can't be racist, I use so much Unicode!
02:14:55 <shachaf> Some of it even non-ASCII Unicode.
02:15:53 <shachaf> My IRC client doesn't support that. :-(
02:16:23 <shachaf> (Really, something in the IRC->me translation is messing up non-BMP Unicode characters.)
02:17:32 <zzo38> If you don't like that then change it
02:18:43 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you racist too?
02:19:15 <zzo38> I try not to be, but since I use language it makes me a little bit racist anyways
02:19:36 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
02:19:39 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
02:19:56 <fungot> shachaf: ' ah?' said nanny. " it's you, son. you're too skinny. i've seen these little stones around, too.
02:20:47 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
02:20:50 <fungot> shachaf: that's a good question for the plt mailing list. there the only ones that that could be a fnord to run the
02:22:55 <fungot> shachaf: this is all related to sigsegv?) if you didn't operate on text representations and particular character sets?
02:22:59 <fungot> shachaf: so i was wondering why all my applications had become slow on old computers that use dimms? my taskbar just moved to our nation's grand capital, and the
02:23:18 <shachaf> my taskbar just moved to our nation's grand capital, and the
02:24:22 <shachaf> kmc: You would enjoy #haskell currently.
02:24:25 <shachaf> 19:21 < lambdabot> Einskell says: Make everything as monad as possible, but not monadder.
02:24:29 <shachaf> 19:23 < JoeyA> Monad monad monad monad monad monad.
02:26:13 <kmc> i bet some of these IOCCC entries would be more comprehensible after a run through a C compiler and decompiler
02:26:36 <kmc> i bet this would be a lot more useful than the standard source-level prettifiers
02:26:43 <ion> Which decompilers suck the least?
02:26:53 <shachaf> The standard source-level prettifier probably wouldn't be *that* bad.
02:27:15 <kmc> shachaf: indent(1) makes a total hash of most of them
02:27:26 <kmc> the guidelines basically say that if indent makes your code look ok, don't bother submitting
02:27:48 <shachaf> I was thinking of something smarter than indent(1).
02:27:56 <elliott> kmc: have you seen Gregor's?
02:28:11 <kmc> maybe i should look at LLVM output from clang
02:28:11 <shachaf> E.g. renaming variables, expanding #defines
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02:28:26 <kmc> shachaf: yeah, that usually doesn't help too much either
02:28:33 <elliott> indent just chokes on a lot of perfectly ok code IME
02:28:56 <kmc> you really want stuff like dead code elimination and reordering big chains of , and ?: operators into saner sequential/conditional control flow
02:29:03 <kmc> which is why I think a pass through a proper compiler might help
02:29:08 <ion> IME is Finnish for SUCK.
02:29:34 <shachaf> Perhaps just looking at the disassembled output would be enough.
02:29:53 <kmc> the one i'm looking at now (2001/herrmann2) in particular has a *ton* of dead code
02:30:09 <kmc> more specifically, side-effect-free expressions to the left of ,
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02:30:26 <kmc> well, it also depends on whether you just want to understand how the program works, or also how it's obfuscated
02:30:49 <kmc> yeah i saw gregor's entry
02:30:51 <kmc> good stuff
02:30:56 <kmc> i didn't dig into it yet
02:31:45 <shachaf> I like how in JavaScript (1,foo) can be a different value from (foo).
02:32:04 <shachaf> No. I don't *really* like it.
02:32:38 <elliott> I'm so cool I saw Gregor's entry BEFORE IT WAS SUBMITTED.
02:32:53 <shachaf> kmc: http://perfectionkills.com/global-eval-what-are-the-options/
02:35:13 <shachaf> Oh, this explains a JS annoyance of mine, actually.
02:35:26 <shachaf> You can't say var foo = console.log.
02:35:45 <shachaf> Previously I was just using var foo = function(x) { console.log(x); }
02:35:57 <shachaf> But I guess you can var foo = console.log.bind(console).
02:37:14 <shachaf> It's not so much "this explains" as "I just thought about what could actually be causing it and came to this conclusion".
02:38:27 <elliott> SO question: "Can Haskell pretend to be a database, and if so, how?"
02:39:09 <zzo38> What do you mean by that?
02:39:31 <kmc> ln -s /usr/bin/ghc /usr/bin/mysql
02:39:49 <elliott> monqy: hmm, what's that "two planes at once" message
02:40:09 <zzo38> "Can Haskell pretend to be a database" This question does not seem to even make sense?????
02:40:58 <zzo38> OK, Famicompo Mini 8 is now finished and available for download.
02:41:13 <shachaf> Free evasion a = a | evasion (free evasion a)
02:41:43 <shachaf> My language is case insensitive.
02:42:39 <shachaf> Did you know Noël Coward was born in the 19th century?
02:42:59 <lambdabot> synx says: webdev is like doing one of those stupid little kids toys where you fit the circle block into the circle hole
02:43:46 <kmc> fare evasion?
02:44:41 <kmc> shachaf: Did you know that different kinds of citrus tree can be easily grafted onto each other?
02:44:49 <shachaf> The problem with fare evasion is that it's unfare.
02:44:56 <kmc> you can have a single tree which grows oranges on some branches, lemons on others, limes on others
02:45:16 <shachaf> kmc: Yes! Well, I knew it about some specific cases, at least.
02:45:18 <kmc> this is industrially important too
02:45:53 <kmc> cause you can graft a branch which grows the kind of fruit you want onto a tree that's of a variety that's better at being a tree
02:46:28 <shachaf> Isn't this how most oranges are grown, or something?
02:46:39 <kmc> i've heard as much
02:46:58 <shachaf> Seedless oranges, I suppose.
02:47:09 <zzo38> Do you like the GenRandom I have written for the random generators or is there a better way?
02:48:20 <shachaf> I wish humans could be grafted.
02:48:33 <zzo38> Onto trees or onto humans?
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02:56:28 <zzo38> Famicompo mini vol.8 has some multi-track files, unlike the others.
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03:03:02 <shachaf> Ugh, Linux now uses the term "x32".
03:03:17 <shachaf> Admittedly it uses it for something different from "32-bit x86".
03:03:47 <shachaf> Remember the bit about my language being case-insensitive?
03:04:38 <shachaf> reMEMBeR thE bIT aBoUt my LanGuAgE bEINg casE-iNseNSitIVe?
03:04:55 <shachaf> ^rainbow reMEmbEr THE BIT abOut mY LAngUAGe being caSE-InSeNsItive?
03:04:55 <fungot> reMEmbEr THE BIT abOut mY LAngUAGe being caSE-InSeNsItive?
03:08:13 <shachaf> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X32_ABI
03:09:45 <kmc> yeah x32 ABI is in Linux 3.4
03:10:57 <kmc> 32-bit pointers in native x86-64 long mode
03:11:59 <elliott> monqy: i'm arguing this badly :(
03:12:57 <zzo38> edwardk is not on, a few days ago I was asking about fmap lower . lower . duplicate = duplicate . lower and said it doesn't work for (Density []) but actually [] is not even a comonad, it lacks extract and doesn't follow the law duplicate . duplicate = fmap duplicate . duplicate
03:13:53 <shachaf> That depends on your definition of duplicate!
03:14:30 <shachaf> According to http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/category-extras/0.53.5/doc/html/Control-Comonad-Density.html , the argument to Density just needs to be a functor.
03:14:36 <zzo38> But the fmap lower . lower . duplicate = duplicate . lower does seem to work with actually comonads and seems to be the law for homomorphism
03:15:29 <zzo38> shachaf: Actually the argument to Density can be anything; it does not even have to be a functor. But Density is also a comonad transformer, and Codensity is also a monad transformer even though the argument to Codensity can also be anything.
03:17:10 <elliott> monqy: why did you argue for the bad thing :(
03:17:50 <monqy> the extend to which i argued for it is saying one at a time would be ridiculous
03:17:56 <monqy> just imagine how ridiculous it would be
03:17:57 <shachaf> least common multiple at a time
03:18:24 <monqy> it would be the most ridiculousest
03:19:00 <zzo38> shachaf: How do you mean, depends on your definition of duplicate? What are you saying depends on that? Only certain definitions are correct to follow the comonad laws (which are just dual to the monad laws)
03:20:01 <shachaf> zzo38: According to you, none of them follow the comonad laws. :-)
03:20:14 <shachaf> But you didn't give a definition of duplicate, so how can you say that it doesn't follow the law?
03:20:40 <monqy> anyway the proper way to handle it is not having upstairs. i'm gone for a while so have fun w/ yr argument "ha ha"
03:21:52 <zzo38> shachaf: None of what follow the comonad laws? duplicate . duplicate = fmap duplicate . duplicate is mentioned in the documentation
03:22:25 <shachaf> You said "[] is not even a comonad, it lacks extract and doesn't follow the law duplicate . duplicate = fmap duplicate . duplicate"
03:22:39 <zzo38> duplicate is the dual to join
03:23:02 <zzo38> Monad have return and join, comonad have extract dual to return and duplicate dual to join
03:23:02 <elliott> zzo38: shachaf is asking what definition of duplicate you are using for [].
03:23:19 <zzo38> I am using the one that comes with it.
03:23:37 <shachaf> You just said [] isn't a comonad.
03:23:42 <zzo38> But since there is no extract for [] it is not a comonad anyways so it doesn't count
03:23:43 <shachaf> Where does duplicate come from?
03:23:56 <elliott> shachaf: duplicate _is_ defined for [] in the comonad package
03:23:59 <elliott> Extend is a different class
03:26:04 <zzo38> The law duplicate . duplicate = fmap duplicate . duplicate is mentioned for Comonad, not Extend, but ComonadTrans class method lower is with something having Extend class, not Comonad.
03:32:22 <zzo38> But is fmap lower . lower . duplicate = duplicate . lower supposed to be the law for homomorphism?
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04:42:26 <zzo38> I have five days to figure out part of the strategy for the situation in Dungeons&Dragons game, and I have some ideas. I may use Correspond spell to call the chancellor, but he will probably be able to recognize me and I do not know what things to say. I try to lead him into a trap. In case he comes and then tries to hide, I have already considered that and know what to do about that.
04:44:54 <zzo38> I may need one or two scrolls of Locate Creature (I already have Locate Object).
05:25:29 <oklofok> "elliott it was still hideous even then!" evil
05:27:30 <oklofok> i _thought_ you said that you have used monospaced font on irc and it was still hideous
05:27:39 <oklofok> but i guess that would've been too silly to be true
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05:28:52 <elliott> it was < foo> that was hideous
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05:44:26 <zzo38> Then don't use < foo> if you dislike it
05:45:23 <elliott> the problem is other people using it
05:46:08 <Sgeo> What is < foo>?
05:46:45 <shachaf> An esoteric programming language, of course.
05:47:28 <Sgeo> Oh, < foo> as in how some client shows nicks on IRC?
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05:47:34 <Sgeo> And that space is annoying?
05:48:19 <shachaf> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%3C%20foo%3E
05:49:33 <Sgeo> shachaf, too bad that link doesn't work
05:49:47 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Foo exists
05:50:24 <shachaf> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Foo%20exists
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05:56:12 <quintopia> i use < nick> but i try to delete the space when copypasta into channels
05:57:35 <monqy> either keep the space or don't use < nick>!!!
05:57:46 <shachaf> My IRC client shows < nick>.
05:57:54 <shachaf> I usually delete it when I copy into a channel.
05:58:31 <monqy> 19:08:23 show_nickmode_empty = OFF
05:58:50 <zzo38> When I copy to a channel I will only quote the part which is necessary to quote
05:59:23 <shachaf> What if someone becomes an op?
05:59:33 <shachaf> Will their lines stop a-lining?
05:59:35 <Sgeo> We are worms we're the best and we've come to win the war
05:59:41 <shachaf> monqy: That's the devil. :-(
05:59:55 <monqy> text doesnt really align anyway
06:00:02 <monqy> if you dont make it align
06:00:02 <shachaf> I'd rather have a space before the <
06:00:04 <elliott> shachaf: turn off the @ display then
06:00:08 <elliott> it's "stupid", say experts
06:00:12 <Sgeo> shachaf, clearly you should join #shachaf and see
06:00:18 <shachaf> elliott: That's the devil too. :-(
06:00:32 <shachaf> Sgeo: I expect you just joined that channel so that I won't be an op in it?
06:00:55 <Sgeo> I opped you before you left...
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06:02:22 <zzo38> How many different alignments of IRC messages are there?
06:02:34 <Sgeo> shachaf, I left #shachaf
06:03:02 -!- augur has joined.
06:03:05 <shachaf> I joined after you joined and left before you left.
06:03:23 <shachaf> It's like an shachaf Sgeo #shachaf sandwich!
06:05:35 * Sgeo can't wait to eat food today
06:07:07 <quintopia> <y3di> https://twitpic.com/show/large/9nild1 -- guess God really does use lisp
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06:15:30 <oklofok> "elliott it was < foo> that was hideous" ohh
06:16:26 <oklofok> _why_ is the space there in some clients?
06:16:43 <kmc> cause if you're an op it shows as <@foo>
06:16:45 <elliott> oklofok: because @ goes there
06:16:50 <shachaf> oklofok: To make it align with "<+foo>" and "<@foo>", I assume.
06:16:56 <kmc> elliott, shachaf: beaten
06:17:12 <oklofok> ah yes, come to think of it, i have realized that multiple times.
06:17:33 <monqy> it's the status slot, where the status symbol goes, and empty status slot is a space
06:17:59 <shachaf> "i'm setting show_nickmode_empty back to ON now"
06:20:58 <elliott> shachaf: no you're terrible
06:21:36 <shachaf> elliott: Don't worry "i didn't really do it"
06:21:44 <shachaf> I was lying. Which I guess makes me terrible. :-(
06:21:50 <shachaf> Except it was in quotation marks.
06:22:12 <shachaf> That's a depressing rainbow.
06:22:20 <itidus21> <elkng> ()ing with portals. Now you're think()
06:22:26 <zzo38> Why does it have to align?
06:22:34 <Sgeo> What happens if you're both
06:24:06 <shachaf> elliott doesn't like < nick> because it symbolizes the non-existence of @
06:27:14 <fizzie> The ^rainbow rainbow is slightly depressing partially because it doesn't go up to eleven, let alone 15; it only goes up to 9.
06:27:23 <itidus21> "The fact that there is no single word in English for the symbol has prompted some writers to use the French arobase[4] or Spanish arroba or to coin new words such as apserand and ampersat - but none of these has achieved wide currency.
06:27:38 <fizzie> Someone could fix it to use the same color ordering as
06:27:40 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
06:29:53 <itidus21> i hope one day @ has it's own wikipedia page
06:30:24 <shachaf> Mathematicians overload way too much.
06:30:34 <shachaf> if = means ⊆, does (+) mean liftM2 (+)?
06:32:30 <monqy> I too hope one day @ has it's own wikipedia page
06:34:34 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ bf do ft id pl rc v wn
06:34:35 <fungot> ((0)(15)(14)(1)(2)(12)(11)(10)(3)(9)(8)(7)(5)(4)(13)(6))(~^:()SSa~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a*~(█)S:^):^
06:37:49 <itidus21> shachaf: i think that it's a good thing when you don't have to have much information to use a piece of a language
06:40:13 <itidus21> in the case of a function or procedure i think it's nice when a summary is good enough
06:41:21 <itidus21> this is probably not actually relevant
06:42:43 <fizzie> It would be the funniest if "/nick @foo" would give you ops on every channel you're on. (And double-ops where you already had some.)
06:43:10 <elliott> fizzie: needs a backspace before the @
06:43:50 <itidus21> it would also be funny if "/nick @foo" was a backdoor password into most login screens
06:44:43 <itidus21> but i should stop re-peddling jokes
06:47:07 <Sgeo> Just for IRC makes more sense
06:47:29 <Sgeo> Idiopathic autoreferent
06:47:45 <Sgeo> ^^message I got when I tried to /nick to @Sgeo
06:51:31 <fizzie> "Erroneous Nickname", says the server.
06:55:18 * Sgeo did it on a different server
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08:33:35 <pikhq> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2AeSsOcJv4 This... Should not work.
08:34:29 <pikhq> (Daft Punk, "Around the World", orchestral. Arrangement by Walt Ribeiro)
08:38:08 <elliott> this is going to be one of those shitty basically-just-a-midi-version-run-through-a-vst things isn't it
08:38:37 <elliott> ok its not as bad as i was expecting
08:39:10 <pikhq> Yeah, I was expecting utter ear-rape.
08:39:16 <pikhq> Why I clicked I don't know.
08:39:32 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:39:43 <pikhq> Clearly it killed elliott.
08:58:11 <Sgeo> Vorpal doesn't play BZFlag, does he?
08:58:20 <Sgeo> There was someone, with the name... AnSomething
08:58:31 <Sgeo> I forgot what the something was, but I was thinking Vorpal
08:58:56 <Sgeo> And someone else, who apparently has played BZFlag for a very long time, claimed that that person used cheats. (Claimed this after that person was offline)
09:00:07 <HackEgo> 626) <fungot> Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
09:02:02 <Sgeo> monqy, right, AnMaster is Vorpal, but I don't remember if the name I saw in BZFlag was AnMaster or something else
09:02:23 <Sgeo> And if it was AnMaster, it could be a coincidence
09:03:03 <pikhq> There can't be that many people playing BZFlag though.
09:03:09 <pikhq> ... Or caring enough to cheat for that matter.
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09:36:02 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I don't play BZFlag
09:36:14 <Vorpal> I know it is a game, that is all
09:36:19 <Vorpal> I don't even remember what type of game
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09:37:05 <elliott> look at what i get when loading http://thepiratebay.se/:
09:40:01 <Taneb> elliott, government's told all the ISP's to block Pirate Bay
09:40:55 <Taneb> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17894176
09:44:03 <pikhq> Or https://tpb.pirateparty.org.uk/
09:44:36 <fizzie> elliott: Did you choose "yes" or "no"?
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10:46:41 <Sgeo> I love how both yes and no are ambiguous answers to that question
10:53:54 <Gregor> "Elephant" isn't ambiguous, just irrelephant.
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11:16:45 <Sgeo> Was going to say not a typo, but the source I took that name from has a persistent typo
11:16:55 <Sgeo> http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/fourplay/pieces/pieces.10s.html
11:17:00 <Sgeo> Search for oliphuant
11:17:06 <Sgeo> Then click the link to Oliphuant
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11:47:17 <Sgeo> Neither elliott nor PH are here
11:47:30 <Taneb> That does happen occasionalyl
11:47:36 <Sgeo> @tell elliott Tube Trap changed around, so now water rises at Sudden Death
11:47:46 <Sgeo> @tell Phantom_Hoover Tube Trap changed around, so now water rises at Sudden Death
11:48:05 <Taneb> Aww, now I want to play GIRP
11:50:08 <Deewiant> http://www.foddy.net/GIRP.html
12:48:05 <Sgeo> http://www1.reocities.com/SiliconValley/drive/2069/SimCity/SC3KNewsTicker.html
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13:25:22 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, you have excessive underscores
13:26:31 <Taneb> You... don't seem that evil
13:28:40 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, you'd have messages if you had one underscore
13:28:51 <Sgeo> @messages Phantom_Hoover
13:28:53 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
13:28:55 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:29:49 <Sgeo> Scheme for Worms: Armageddon
13:29:56 <Sgeo> I played it with either you or elliott, I forgot which
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13:37:08 <Sgeo> `welcome david_werecat
13:37:12 <HackEgo> david_werecat: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:13:09 <oklofok> we found a topological space which is countable and not first-countable, and the 5 (out of 143) spaces in counterexamples in topology which are countable but not first-countable share almost none of its properties
14:13:23 <oklofok> (we found it by accident, it was supposed to be a really nice space :()
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14:38:26 <itidus21> i have always classified worms and lemmings as pixel terraforming games, but not by that name
14:38:44 <itidus21> theres very few such games notable in that style i think
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15:48:15 <Gregor> "Palindromes are rasemordnilap!"
15:59:01 <oklofok> the joke is that's a palindrome
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16:00:50 <Gregor> And yet NOÖNE has acknowledged my BRILLIANT joke in the /topic :(
16:02:43 <ais523> it's not /that/ brilliant
16:02:43 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:07:28 <olsner> Gregor: what is the brilliant joke?
16:08:07 <Gregor> ... the one in the /topic.
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16:31:52 <andkerosine> Does anybody know off the top of their head if I've accidentally made a clone? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Headsecks
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16:34:31 <Gregor> andkerosine: You want the category "Brainfuck derivatives", not "Brainfuck equivalents"
16:35:03 <Gregor> Or maybe both, but the latter is barely-used and probably shouldn't exist (elliott?)
16:36:26 <andkerosine> It doesn't deviate from Brainfuck in any meaningful way...
16:36:28 <Deewiant> andkerosine: You mention ignoring values 8 or 9 modulo 8, but those are respectively 0 and 1 modulo 8...
16:38:00 <Deewiant> I'm sure that 8 % 8 == 0. Maybe I have misinterpreted the article, though.
16:38:50 <andkerosine> Well, yes, that's obviously what I meant. I wasn't questioning your ability to do arithmetic
16:39:17 <Gregor> andkerosine: Hm hm hm, I misunderstood slightly, you're right. Still, probably everything in the latter should additionally be in the former.
16:39:59 <andkerosine> "each character of the source code is interpreted as its ordinal value modulo 8"
16:40:00 <Gregor> But I don't know what I'm talking about, trust elliott's opinion if he chooses to appear.
16:40:06 <andkerosine> "characters for which a value of 8 or 9 is produced"
16:40:23 <andkerosine> The "produced" bit in the latter pretty clearly refers to the former, I'd say.
16:41:18 <Deewiant> Yes, and I don't see how you get anything other than the range [0,7] when you take positive integers modulo 8.
16:42:03 <Deewiant> So the statement is meaningless and just there to confuse?
16:42:05 <andkerosine> Or... heh, whoops. I suppose it could be worded a bit better. My apologies for hastiness.
16:42:30 <Deewiant> Any characters which are congruent to 8 modulo 8 are also congruent to 0 modulo 8, so they'll map to 0 when you take the remainder.
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16:46:03 <andkerosine> Which... will work as intended, I believe.
16:47:01 <andkerosine> At least, nothing suspect showed up during preliminary testing, but that could be a result of running them all through the converter.
16:47:55 <Deewiant> That doesn't match with what I understand "silently ignored" to mean.
16:49:32 <andkerosine> Went to change it, saw I wasn't logged in, am login-banned, so switching browsers to change it now.
16:49:39 <andkerosine> The line about silently ignoring, obviously.
16:50:11 <Deewiant> Just asked to confirm since that sentence obviously wasn't removed. :-P
16:50:21 <ais523> andkerosine: what were you login-banned from?
16:51:12 <andkerosine> I reckon I need more coffee. Registered, forgot my password, tried to login five or six times, apparently too quickly. : /
16:51:51 <ais523> I thought it just put up a CAPTCHA when you did that, but maybe it's misconfigured
16:52:05 <itidus21> you probably don't need more coffee really
16:54:47 <andkerosine> ais523: Well, it does display a captcha, but answering it correctly seems to serve no function.
16:55:31 <itidus21> andkerosine: it may have been your coffee in the first place which made you re-login so much
16:55:50 <itidus21> but then you may be right... i forget what programming feels like
16:56:19 <itidus21> ahh you weren't talking about programming -- I reckon I need more coffee.
16:56:33 <andkerosine> Well, this is certainly a strange place for you to have wound up. ; )
16:56:47 <ais523> andkerosine: I'm not convinced that switching browsers will work, anyway
16:57:01 <ais523> that sort of auto-ban, unfortunately I can't override; rebooting your router might help if you have a dynamic IP
16:57:19 <itidus21> One does not simply qwop into #esoteric
16:58:24 <andkerosine> ais523: For what it's worth, switching browsers worked...
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18:04:31 <olsner> nortti_: ask Gregor, it's some kind of joke apparently
18:05:06 <nortti_> Gregor: wtf is the topic about?
18:05:10 <kmc> presumably it's a joke about austria and australia
18:08:43 <nortti_> is there a limut how many lines can you send per minute before you get kicked out for flooding on freenode?
18:10:00 <Gregor> You all (except for kmc) suck at jokes.
18:12:38 <nortti_> well I didn't know that austria was named that in english and I couldn't figure out how someone could mistake switzerland could be confused with australia
18:14:27 <olsner> I think the joke is missing some alps in australia
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18:17:35 <olsner> (P.S. I'd just like to point out that I got the joke from the start)
18:19:12 <ais523> I got it immediately, but it isn't actually funny
18:19:30 <ais523> <nortti_> is there a limut how many lines can you send per minute before you get kicked out for flooding on freenode? <-- yes, also a limit to how fast you send lines before ops get annoyed and kick you
18:19:47 <ais523> nortti_: what's austria called in your native language?
18:20:25 <nortti_> eastrule is a crude literal translation
18:22:04 <olsner> I managed to confuse austria and switzerland for a while though, got to thinking that the swedish for austria was a lot weirder than it is
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18:22:37 <ais523> nortti_: hmm, not that far from the German name "Österreich"
18:23:21 <nortti_> I know. I expected english to have something similar
18:23:50 <olsner> austria probably means east kingdom in french or latin or whatever language that is
18:24:13 <ais523> "aust" is quite close to "east"
18:24:40 <olsner> could be a mangled form of österreich
18:25:30 <olsner> ah: The name "Austria" is a Latinization of Österreich, which was first recorded in the 12th century.
18:25:33 <olsner> This has led to much confusion as German Ost is "east", but Latin auster is "south".
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18:32:04 <nortti_> Ugh. Rube Goldberg would be proud of my shellscripts
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18:51:09 -!- Gregor has set topic: This just in: #esoteric has no sense of humor | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:00:30 <nortti_> has anyone here used TWENEX (also known as TOPS-20)?
19:08:08 <nortti_> if not you should. sdf offers free shell account§ at twenex.org
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19:30:09 <Gregor> I don't trust any domain that doesn't resolve without www. ...
19:30:17 <Gregor> Even extra-www.org resolves.
19:31:18 <ais523> Gregor: wow, not only does www.org resolve, so does org.
19:31:55 <ais523> oh, that's probably Firefox automatically adding the www
19:32:05 <ais523> doesn't work in dig or w3m
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19:32:33 <Gregor> www.org is just a normal TLD, there's nothing interesting in the fact that it resolves *shrugs*
19:32:37 <coppro> chrome appears to resolve http://org/ to about:blank
19:32:52 <coppro> and fails on other TLDs
19:33:16 <ais523> Gregor: well, org. resolving /would/ be interesting, but it doesn't :(
19:33:22 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:33:25 * ais523 wonders why people habitually omit the trailing dot on domain names
19:33:32 <Gregor> ais523: Neener neener.
19:33:50 <coppro> ais523: because that is the convention
19:33:53 <ais523> but org. is much more major, and therefore having an A record would be more surprising
19:34:06 <elliott> 20:33 <lambdabot> ais523 asked 3h 30m 21s ago: ?
19:34:08 <coppro> also how do you participate in this conversation? I thought you filtered URLs
19:34:21 <coppro> ais523: and because domain names are no more ambiguous without the trailing dot
19:34:34 <ais523> I stopped filtering URLs ages ago
19:34:46 <ais523> just didn't tell people in the hope they'd stop pinging me with them
19:35:12 <ais523> oh, just didn't tell everyone
19:35:14 <ais523> I probably told elliott
19:35:49 <elliott> you told the channel, at least
19:37:00 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . N Headsecks; 16:24 . . (+2,800) . . Andkerosine (Talk | contribs | block) (Headsecks is born!)
19:37:12 <ais523> elliott: he came here and asked if it had been done before
19:37:20 <elliott> what, a brainfuck derivative?
19:37:25 <ais523> that particular BF derivative
19:37:35 <ais523> that's showing a surprising amount of genre knowledge :)
19:37:43 <elliott> unfortunately, there are too many BF derivatives for one to ever repeat
19:38:08 <elliott> ais523: we should put up an editnotice with a box saying "Is your language a brainfuck derivative? Please consider something more creative."
19:38:25 <ais523> sadly, it should come up before people even come to the site
19:38:38 <ais523> because normally they design the language first, /then/ come here to document it
19:38:39 <elliott> on the web, billboards, etc.
19:38:48 <elliott> "STOP MAKING BRAINFUCK DERIVATIVES"
19:39:44 <elliott> 09:44:36: <fizzie> elliott: Did you choose "yes" or "no"?
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19:40:16 <elliott> ais523: Did you know your ISP DNS is probably censored now? :(
19:40:31 <ais523> DNS? I thought it was using CleanFeed
19:40:40 <elliott> 09:37:05: <elliott> look at what i get when loading http://thepiratebay.se/:
19:40:40 <elliott> 09:37:07: <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZHU2bg
19:40:55 <ais523> at least, IIRC the court order was "and don't just change the DNS, block it properly", but in more legal language
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19:41:19 <ais523> there are almost certainly hundreds of ways round it, ofc
19:41:40 <elliott> 09:40:01: <Taneb> elliott, government's told all the ISP's to block Pirate Bay
19:41:40 <elliott> 09:40:07: <Taneb> Try switching DNS
19:41:51 <elliott> 09:44:03: <pikhq> Or https://tpb.pirateparty.org.uk/
19:41:55 <elliott> must just be DNS, then, since that link works
19:42:18 <ais523> does it resolve to the same IP, I wonder?
19:42:30 <elliott> it resolves to the pirate bay
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19:43:41 * ais523 feels vindictive at Facebook's share price
19:43:48 <elliott> 16:34:31: <Gregor> andkerosine: You want the category "Brainfuck derivatives", not "Brainfuck equivalents"
19:43:48 <elliott> 16:35:03: <Gregor> Or maybe both, but the latter is barely-used and probably shouldn't exist (elliott?)
19:43:53 <elliott> Gregor: The latter is for things like Ook!.
19:43:58 <ais523> nice to see the shares are doing badly; it's pretty rare for a company's share price to fall from the IPO
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19:44:21 <nortti_> well actually twenex.org resolves but it is a different machine (PDP-10)
19:44:24 <ais523> Gregor: BF equivalents is for things where all the commands map 1:1 to BF's, with nothing added or removed
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19:46:07 <elliott> oh well, I want to switch to another ISP anyway
19:46:36 <Taneb> elliott, TalkTalk haven't blocked it yet
19:46:37 <elliott> 16:36:26: <andkerosine> It doesn't deviate from Brainfuck in any meaningful way...
19:46:43 <elliott> ais523: this is a shocking level of self-awareness
19:46:55 <ais523> yes, that's what I was commenting on
19:46:57 <coppro> ais523: yeah, they deserved it
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19:47:37 <coppro> I wish I could buy GOOG now :(
19:47:42 <elliott> 16:54:47: <andkerosine> ais523: Well, it does display a captcha, but answering it correctly seems to serve no function.
19:47:52 * ais523 wonders if andkerosine already got the brick ready
19:47:55 <elliott> coppro: so you could have stocks in the /other/ crappy social network?
19:48:05 <elliott> ais523: hmm, maybe our CAPTCHA is too hard
19:48:16 <ais523> elliott: I'm wondering if he got it right or wrong
19:48:18 <coppro> elliott: no, because they got hammered due to FB, and are bouncing back up.
19:48:21 <elliott> 16:57:01: <ais523> that sort of auto-ban, unfortunately I can't override; rebooting your router might help if you have a dynamic IP
19:48:28 <elliott> "serving no function" I bet means "displays another CAPTCHA"
19:48:31 <coppro> I can't buy since it would be insider trading, even though the impulse to buy isn't based on insider information.
19:48:33 <elliott> which is how it handles invalid entries
19:48:41 <elliott> (ConfirmEdit's UI is terrible...)
19:48:47 <ais523> coppro: you work for a social network?
19:48:57 <elliott> ais523: he works for Google
19:49:36 <elliott> From: "Antelmo Alvarado García" (with the quotes)
19:49:41 <elliott> loan offer,reply back for more info.
19:50:50 <elliott> 18:17:35: <olsner> (P.S. I'd just like to point out that I got the joke from the start)
19:50:56 <elliott> 18:19:12: <ais523> I got it immediately, but it isn't actually funny
19:51:16 <elliott> 18:22:37: <ais523> nortti_: hmm, not that far from the German name "Österreich"
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19:55:40 <nortti_> brainfuckxt.... why do people keep making brainfuck derivatives
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19:59:37 <elliott> ais523: [http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Kryptonx User:KryptonX]
19:59:54 <ais523> not everyone has to know wikisyntax
20:00:03 <ais523> also, note that that corresponds to a piped link, not a regular one
20:00:07 <elliott> * [[Brainfuck++|Brainfuck++ -- A Brainfuck extension]]
20:00:15 <ais523> perhaps it's an srlink
20:00:29 <ais523> see {{srlink}} on Wikipedia, I invented it
20:00:42 <ais523> it's for self-links that conceptually point to "Wikipedia" rather than "this site"
20:01:35 <elliott> "Articles about online communities may well discuss Wikipedia as an example, in a neutral tone, without specifically implying that the article in question is being read on—or is a part of—Wikipedia."
20:01:43 <elliott> I really love Wikipedia's self-reference policy.
20:01:56 <elliott> It makes the articles so much more fun to read.
20:03:03 <ais523> hmm, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&target=Template%3ASrlink&namespace=0 is quite an interesting list
20:03:22 <elliott> List of people associated with the Revolt of the Comuneros (transclusion) (links)
20:03:40 <elliott> wow that article cites answers.com
20:03:47 <ais523> ooh, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WP_on_Getty_images_with_watermark.jpg is reasonably confusing
20:04:06 <elliott> ais523: it's used as an example on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyfraud
20:04:14 <elliott> "An image of the Main Page of Wikipedia watermarked, claimed as copyrighted, and sold by Getty Images and Agence France-Presse. Wikipedia text is licensed CC-BY-SA 3.0 which requires the same or similar free license on all derivative works."
20:04:15 <ais523> I know, that's how I found it
20:04:34 <ais523> the best thing is the deletion notice, there's a raging debate as to whether it's copyvio or not
20:05:10 <elliott> ais523: I think it might be original enough to count
20:05:31 <elliott> you can see distortions from the screen, the browser chrome, the border of the laptop, the blankness behind it, and several watermarks
20:05:45 <elliott> so I'd say it's probably a license violation
20:05:49 <ais523> apparently, the deletion discussion's been going since January
20:06:12 <ais523> my guess is that Wikipedia and Getty are copyvioing each other
20:06:18 <elliott> that doesn't surprise me, given that Commons is apparently seriously dysfunctional
20:06:25 <nortti_> brainfuckxt article: "make the language more powerful ... 100,000 ASCII Character slots"
20:06:36 <elliott> nortti_: it's more powerful in that it's sub-TC
20:06:42 <elliott> because there's only one level of loops
20:06:55 <elliott> ais523: btw, can you give your assessment as to the computational class of BrainfuckXT? FSA or LBA, I suspect
20:07:02 <elliott> I'm wikifying it and want to put it in a computational class category
20:07:14 <ais523> that'd mean actually reading the article
20:07:24 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/brainfuckXT
20:08:12 <elliott> ais523: "The image is a derivative of a CC-BY-SA image, so by the plain reading of the CC-BY-SA license must be (and is) licensed CC-BY-SA."
20:08:19 <ais523> hmm, we have infinite memory, but awkward control flow
20:08:20 <elliott> ais523: these people need to play nomic...
20:08:21 <Gregor> <elliott> nortti_: it's more powerful in that it's sub-TC <elliott> because there's only one level of loops // the interesting thing is that we don't need infinite levels of loops to simulate a UTM, so the question is, how many depths of loops renders it TC (OH GOD FANCY L)
20:08:27 <Sgeo> If Getty violated Wikimedia's terms, Wikimedia cannot then go use the illegally licensed image itself?
20:08:29 <ais523> elliott: that's not true; there's also the possibility that it's illegal
20:08:50 <ais523> this is something that people keep getting wrong about the GPL, incidentally
20:08:51 <elliott> Sgeo: of course not, Getty hold the copyright to it; if they didn't, they wouldn't be able to license it as CC-BY-SA
20:08:55 <elliott> which is what they're required to do, of course
20:08:58 <ais523> it's commonly used to spread FUD
20:09:02 <Gregor> There's also the possibility of fair use, lest we forget.
20:09:10 <elliott> it's copyrighted to them and not released under any free license, so it's illegal for Wikimedia to use it
20:09:13 <ais523> elliott: I believe Getty and Wikimedia both hold the copyright to parts of it
20:09:15 <elliott> OTOH, Getty are also breaking the law
20:09:17 <elliott> but that's a separate matter
20:09:19 <ais523> as does whoever wrote the main page blurbs on the day in question
20:09:35 <elliott> Gregor: I doubt you could use that under fair use
20:09:38 <elliott> you can hardly argue it's irreplacable
20:09:44 <elliott> I could make a similar image in 10 minutes
20:09:47 <Gregor> Probably not, but it's an angle of argument.
20:09:54 <elliott> Gregor: also, it's probably being misused as fair use
20:09:58 <elliott> it's being used to illustrate copyfraud
20:10:01 <elliott> rather than Wikipedia, or... computers
20:10:03 <ais523> actually, this is confusing; it has while and an if that can go inside it, but the tape is 100000 elements long, but it also supports arbitrary-length strings
20:10:09 <elliott> or photography at weird angles
20:10:14 <elliott> so it's being used for a sort of meta-use
20:10:21 <elliott> which is probably not OK fair use
20:10:29 <elliott> ais523: are you sure it supports arbitrary-length strings?
20:10:35 <Gregor> <elliott> Gregor: also, it's probably being misused as fair use // I actually meant fair use the other way, Getty may be able to argue free use.
20:10:50 <ais523> elliott: there's no indication anywhere that the strings are bounded in length
20:10:59 <pikhq_> elliott: If it makes you feel better, that image is currently marked for deletion due to potential copy vio.
20:11:02 <elliott> that's interesting, but I don't know if it's true
20:11:05 <ais523> if the "indexing integer" has unlimited range, I think it's TC
20:11:07 <elliott> pikhq_: that's what we're discussing
20:11:07 <olsner> but... would a similar image really be a suitable example of copyfraud?
20:11:23 <elliott> ais523: if it's an indexing integer, presumably the maximum value is 100,000
20:11:24 <Gregor> elliott: Neither do I, I'm just saying it's a possible argument for Getty :)
20:11:36 <elliott> olsner: no, but that doesn't change the fact that Wikipedia are probably misusing it and so it doesn't count as fair use for them in the first place
20:11:43 <ais523> elliott: no, there's the tape ("ASCII slots"), which is 100000 characters long
20:11:54 <ais523> and also 30,000 "string slots" which hold arbitrary-length strings
20:12:27 <ais523> wait, no, there's no way to read the value of a string or a character in a string, only to print it out
20:12:30 <ais523> that language has far too many print operators
20:13:34 <elliott> hmm, maybe i should tell dtsund he's probably violating the Crawl license
20:14:23 <ais523> haha, Randall Munroe CC-by-saed exactly one panel of xkcd, so that Wikipedia could use it to illustrate the article
20:14:26 <elliott> he's importing commits from Stone Soup, but not attributing their authors
20:14:41 <Gregor> <ais523> haha, Randall Munroe CC-by-saed exactly one panel of xkcd, so that Wikipedia could use it to illustrate the article // lolwut? Which? Where?
20:14:45 <ais523> I always make sure to attribute the authors when importing in NetHack 4
20:14:50 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Xkcd_philosophy.png
20:14:57 <elliott> why is he even making new commits?
20:15:02 <elliott> he can just cherry-pick the commit
20:15:07 <elliott> and have git track the authorshi
20:15:15 <elliott> ais523: oh shush, it's not that difficult
20:15:22 <ais523> it usually doesn't work
20:15:30 <elliott> anyway, maybe I won't bother telling him, probably nobody cares
20:15:35 <ais523> also, git doesn't track the authorship specially, just appends something to the commit message
20:16:27 <ais523> there are a few other CC-by-saed xkcd panels, mostly ones that refer to Wikipedia itself
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20:16:51 <Gregor> Whoaaaah, we have a visitor from the land of ipv6.
20:17:14 <HackEgo> jobes: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:17:15 <elliott> Are you from... the future?
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20:18:29 <elliott> ais523: hmm, simply adding the authors of all the imported commits to a file in a new commit should be sufficient, right?
20:18:43 -!- ais523 has quit.
20:18:53 <elliott> good way to avoid giving legal advice
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20:30:39 <Sgeo> I want to give illegal advice, but how...
20:31:07 <Sgeo> I am a laywer and a doctor. I recommend taking your heart out and carving your will into it.
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20:35:02 <Sgeo> As a lawyer, I wholeheartedly recommend misrepresenting yourself as a lawyer.
20:35:30 <kmc> as your attorney i advise you to rent a very fast car with no top
20:41:16 <zzo38> Now I think this may be the proper way to define an improper religion: "who use deceptive recruitment practices and use advanced psychological manipulative techniques to reduce their followers to near-zombie state. They entrap followers within the group and destroy their ability to think logically."
20:41:56 <zzo38> Sgeo: It would probably be difficult to do anything if your heart has been removed, isn't it?
20:42:07 <Sgeo> I am high on SLEEP DEPRIVATION
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21:05:19 <elliott> OK, I'm terrified of mine and/or ais523's powers now.
21:23:31 <Vorpal> <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZHU2bg <-- I heard using google translate on the page usually works
21:23:37 <Vorpal> (if you are still looking for a solution)
21:24:08 <elliott> That sounds a lot more painful than just using a different DNS server or the alternate domain name... or not using TPB, which has been working fine for me.
21:24:12 <Vorpal> and with magnet links, there is no tracker to block
21:24:25 <Vorpal> elliott, ah okay, the google translate trick is for when the IP is blocked too
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21:44:12 <elliott> someone misusing the <cite> tag :(
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22:05:28 <Gregor> Something very strange has happened ...
22:05:44 <Gregor> Either my sense of smell /markedly/ and inexplicably improved during the night between Saturday and Sunday,
22:05:57 <Gregor> or I'm having some kind of multi-day psychotic event in which I imagine that my sense of smell has markedly improved.
22:07:40 <Gregor> The fact that I mostly seem to smell something akin to the taste of rust, which I interpret to be blood, lends credence to the latter explanation.
22:08:17 <elliott> Gregor: Your fnarfitude is fnarfolving.
22:09:03 <elliott> Gregor: If it helps, blood is quite metallic for normal people, too :P
22:09:26 <Gregor> The point is that I don't think I should be smelling blood.
22:09:30 <Gregor> What with the lack of blood around me.
22:09:42 <elliott> Gregor: Blood is INSIDE you, man.
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22:13:56 <elliott> Gregor: Mints smell lovely.
22:14:11 <elliott> They might clear up that rusty smell!
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22:19:24 <ion> Note to self: add to vocabulary: noöne
22:20:14 <ion> noöne looks even better (as in more awful).
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23:07:17 <zzo38> I think that if the tax brackets are 10% up to $50.00 and 20% up to $100.00, then if you earn $51.00 then the amount of tax you pay should be $5.20
23:08:20 <madbr> yeah that's how tax brackets work
23:08:28 <madbr> otherwise it would be totally braindead
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00:13:36 <Gregor> gimcrack (n). Definition: gewgaw
00:14:03 <ion> gewgaw (n). Definition: gimcrack
00:25:59 <Gregor> Oh god I can still smell make it stop
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00:32:52 <Gregor> elliott: I haven't got any.
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01:30:47 <quintopia> Gregor: what's this about doodads?
01:31:11 <Gregor> quintopia: I was just curious about curios.
01:45:10 <zzo38> In Dungeons&Dragons game, I have used a few methods to determine my location when it was unknown (as well as confirm that we have not been time-warped); some by magic, and some by astronomy.
01:46:28 <zzo38> Now I have a plan except determining what to tell to the chancellor
01:52:38 <zzo38> Here is one idea of D&D spell: Level: Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 Casting time: Immediate Range: 10 ft Duration: 1 round/level or until discharged (D) Target: One creature Save: Will negates Resist: Yes Components: V, S, XP
01:53:56 <zzo38> If the target of this spell is targeted by a 9th or higher level spell in the duration of this spell, this spell becomes discharged, the other spell is canceled, and target takes 1 point of damage and so does the caster of other spell. This spell fails if target has used magic in past 5 rounds, and is canceled if target uses magic during this spell's duration. XP cost: 1 XP.
02:17:18 <zzo38> I have a list of strategies for mahjong which consists of jokes as well as things that aren't related to mahjong. Including: "Always remember what your tiles look like, in case of sudden blindness." and "Do not discard tiles nobody has discarded, or that anybody has discarded early, mid, or late game. If possible you can consider not discarding at all. But it's a double-edged sword. I can't recommend this to amateurs."
02:24:01 <zzo38> "Never choose scissors, unless the other guy chooses paper." Does this mean that Urbanus Defense and stalemates are not effective if you choose scissors?
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02:36:38 <shachaf> zzo38: Have you ever played Double Fanucci?
02:37:08 <zzo38> shachaf: No, I have never done so.
02:37:41 <shachaf> "Three undertrumps after an opponent's discard of a Trebled Fromp is an indefensible gambit, and is the only known way to win at Double Fanucci."
02:38:02 <zzo38> shachaf: I know that already.
02:38:15 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you ever play _Zork Zero_?
02:38:37 <shachaf> One of the legal moves in Double Fanucci is "Cheat", I believe.
02:38:44 <zzo38> I do not have a copy of this game
02:39:07 <zzo38> However I would like to have a Fanucci deck, as well as a tarot deck
02:39:55 <shachaf> zzo38: You should acquire a copy of Zork Zero and play it!
02:40:40 <zzo38> Would it run in Frotz?
02:43:13 <shachaf> I believe I ran it in WinFrotz.
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04:25:23 <zzo38> "dvilj < paper.dvi | lp" doesn't work; you need to specify "dvilj - < paper.dvi | lp" to get your document to print. Why did they make it like that?
04:27:50 <zzo38> Do you have any tarot deck, Fanucci deck, flower card (hanafuda) deck, etc?
04:28:25 <zzo38> I own a Japanese flower card deck made by Nintendo.
04:55:55 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy UPDATE
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05:20:58 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ORiOYOH3NI4 hey, graphic quality that I'm used to!
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05:59:19 <zzo38> Which feature should I implement next for Internet Quiz Engine? * Timer/time limits * Synchronet module * Printout * Text entry questions * Other (please specify)
06:00:39 <shachaf> zzo38: * Other (please specify)
06:01:00 <zzo38> shachaf: OK. Please specify.
06:01:21 <shachaf> zzo38: Oh, I thought that option was me asking *you* to specify.
06:01:32 <shachaf> In that case I want * Synchronet module
06:02:26 <zzo38> OK. I think it is possible to write Synchronet modules in Javascript, although C and so on can also be used
06:03:03 <shachaf> I don't know what a * Synchronet module is.
06:04:27 <zzo38> I mean a door program for Synchronet BBS
06:10:55 <zzo38> Please learn what it is before answering!
06:14:57 <Kray> * Other (Skynet)
06:25:21 <zzo38> What is this Skynet?
06:31:31 <zzo38> Synchronet includes a telnet server, rlogin server, FTP server, HTTP server, gopher server, SMTP server, POP3 server, NNTP server, and IRC server; external door programs can be native programs, Javascript programs, and DOS programs (regardless of what operating system Synchronet is running on); connects to DOVE-Net and FidoNet; and even some more things.....
06:32:52 <shachaf> zzo38: Why do you like Gopher so much?
06:33:01 <shachaf> Even Firefox doesn't support it anymore.
06:34:23 <zzo38> Some people use it. And, there are extensions for Firefox to support it (which works better than what Firefox used to have, too)
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06:46:03 <Sgeo> Skynet is a reference to a fictional computer (network?). It was evil, or something
06:46:18 <Sgeo> I should actually watch or something
06:53:27 <quintopia> zzo38: why do you use a protocol that requires extra effort to be able to use, and is used by such a very small minority of people in the world?
06:58:47 <zzo38> It doesn't require extra effort.
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07:07:20 <quintopia> zzo38: it requires you to install a plugin
07:11:38 <Sgeo> I once pondered the possibility of storing static webpages as about: URLs, distributed via .reg files that would install a shorter about: URL as a pointer to the larger about: URL
07:13:23 <Sgeo> I was scared of web hosting.
07:13:36 <Sgeo> It seemed to cost money. Clearly, distributing .reg files would be free, or something
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07:43:08 <elliott> http://www.spacex.com/webcast/ neat
07:44:15 <elliott> you're all going to miss it !!!
07:45:23 <elliott> monqy: did you miss the lift-off!!!
07:46:13 <elliott> i like the camera attached to it
07:46:29 <elliott> at least i'm assuming that's what it is
07:47:29 <elliott> ok a camera burning up is the coolest-looking thing
07:47:38 <elliott> actually i guess it's not burning up
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07:50:52 <elliott> i think something's about to happen!!!!
07:50:58 <elliott> rocket xcitement levels: doubled
07:52:15 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, you can install various programs are available. But anything on the computer require installing a plugin unless included with operating system. With Windows, you need to install a program to use Firefox and wget too; with Linux both programs are included by default.
07:52:44 <elliott> ok something didn't happen
07:54:49 <elliott> is it floating in space :(
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07:57:03 <monqy> this is a great moment
07:57:08 <elliott> monqy: did you see the spacex logo melting
07:57:13 <elliott> when it was awaiting downlink thingy
07:57:21 <elliott> video compression is wonderful
07:57:56 <elliott> no i don't want to see maps show me camera
07:59:43 <elliott> oh wow i didn't expect presenters
08:01:01 <monqy> is this what space sounds like
08:01:25 <monqy> SpaceX Our live webcast is now complete. Thanks for tuning in. #DragonLaunch
08:01:43 <elliott> they'll be back later right??? :'(
08:01:56 <elliott> mmm i'm going to keep tuned in
08:02:10 <elliott> i finally understand the harsh reality of space
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08:49:52 <elliott> crawl's tilegen stuff pops up one thing in my dock for each tile
09:09:52 <zzo38> What is a "10 point must system"?
09:25:59 <Sgeo> "We may be stupid, but we're not clever"
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09:28:35 <zzo38> Whose quotation is that?
09:32:05 <Sgeo> It's from A Bit of Fry and Laurie
09:32:06 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8ESoNgdR8E
09:33:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: how do you Americans live with your crazy danger plugs
09:33:03 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NEMA-AC-Power-Plugs.jpg
09:36:34 <Sgeo> What's wrong with that?
09:37:23 <Phantom_Hoover> There aren't any insulating sleeves on the blades! You can have live current flowing through exposed conductors centimetres from your hand!
09:38:12 <Sgeo> I think approximately no one grabs the cord by the blandes
09:38:47 <Sgeo> You'd have to have it sticking half-way in for that to even be possible, really
09:38:57 <Sgeo> Why would a cord be sticking in an outlet halfway in?
09:39:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Also the cable comes out of the back so it could get pulled halfway out!
09:40:14 <Sgeo> Hmm, good point
09:40:24 <Sgeo> But, it's really not difficult to not get electrocuted, I think
09:40:42 <Sgeo> Do you have knives where you are? If you misuse those, you can get killed
09:41:08 <Sgeo> (Note: I'm not actually as defensive as I seem, I think)
09:42:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Well obviously, but using one of your crazy plugs is like JUGGLING KNIVES BLINDFOLDED
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10:19:23 <zzo38> I was playing Wheel of Fortune on computer and got BANKRUPT three times in a row
10:28:45 <fizzie> Is the europlug really that much different? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europlug2.jpg
10:29:01 <elliott> dear god you poor europeans
10:29:10 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Moulded_and_rewireable_BS_1363_plugs.jpg
10:29:13 <elliott> this is the face of true safety
10:29:57 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Three_pin_mains_plug_%28UK%29.svg
10:30:15 <fizzie> Yeah, you've got that weirdo built-in fuse thing.
10:30:30 <elliott> the fuse is there for SAFETY
10:30:41 <fizzie> Safety is for WUSSIES.
10:30:45 <elliott> The plug is polarised, so that the fuse is in the line side of the supply. The standard specifies retention force for the contacts, so that the plug is difficult to dislodge by accidental knocks or strains on the flexible cord. The flexible cord always enters the plug from the bottom, discouraging removal by tugging on the cable, which can damage the cable. The internal arrangement of the terminals ensures that if the cable is pulled
10:30:45 <elliott> out of the plug, the line wire breaks first.
10:32:09 <fizzie> Most shucko plugs also make a 90-degree angle w.r.t. the pins and the cable direction, though not all do.
10:34:12 <fizzie> Schuko, apparently. Well, anyway, letter order.
10:36:11 <zzo38> What should I tell to the chancellor to lead him into the trap? (This is the Dungeons&Dragons game)
10:38:51 <fizzie> Schuko plug isn't "polarised", though, so you can plug it in "the wrong way around". There was a hilarious article in one magazine article about how having your devices plugged in the wrong way will make you sick. I think it also involved using a crystal pendulum to get the orientation right.
10:39:54 <zzo38> (The game is really won with words, not with swords.)
10:40:47 <fizzie> http://www.radionuoret.net/images/topseli_vaarinpain.jpg -- sadly, it's a scan so (probably? do they do OCR yet?) no Google Translate for you.
10:40:54 <fizzie> But you can see her doing the pendulum thing.
10:41:09 <fizzie> It's not a crystal pendulum, though.
10:42:06 <fizzie> "When a metal band, for example a symmetric ring, hanging from a string, is brought next to the outlet, it will start swinging if the plug has the wrong orientation", to paraphrase from the body text.
10:43:08 <fizzie> She does not recommend you to go swapping your plugs around unless you know what you're doing, though.
10:47:23 <fizzie> (She's an... "energy therapeut", so she's an expert in these things.)
10:48:27 <elliott> @tell ais523 I cleaned up [[nethackwiki:NetHack 4]]; you're welcome.
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11:12:46 <elliott> @ask ais523 By the way, what's #tip?
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11:47:19 <ais523> elliott: NetHack meme: basically it's the only new feature that's not in any of the variants and is confirmed to be in $NEXTVERSION, and it's really minor, and many people think it's ridiculous
11:47:19 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
11:47:29 <elliott> ais523: what is that feature?
11:47:37 <ais523> it's a command that lets you tip containers over
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14:06:32 -!- Gregor has set topic: TOMORROW IS THE MOUNTAIN | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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14:54:02 * Sgeo wonders if Quassel has improved since he last tried it
14:55:37 <ais523> <new Perl error message> "Useless use of \E"
14:55:42 <ais523> they didn't have to phrase it /quite/ like that :)
14:56:20 <Taneb> This is why Perl is fourth on my list of non-esoteric programming languages to learn
14:56:49 <nortti> I thought that perl was esoteric. like java'
14:57:08 <elliott> that reminds me, I was going to delete [[esolang:Java]]
14:57:23 <elliott> but instead I'll tell ais523 to do it
14:57:43 <Taneb> Java's my third for reasons I don't quite know
14:57:56 <ais523> nortti: cancels a preceding directive to lowercase, uppercase, or quote interpolated variables
14:58:22 <elliott> hey ais523, delete [[esolang:Java]], please
14:58:43 <ais523> elliott: I was already doing it
14:58:53 <ais523> nortti: the warning happens if you \E without anything for it to cancel
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18:12:00 <Guest28135> Try to check the site of cottages in BALI: www.bebaucottage.comli.com
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18:15:48 <Snowyowl> I have an idea, I want to ask if anyone knows whether it's been done before
18:15:59 <zzo38> Snowyowl: OK please do so
18:16:19 <quintopia> Snowyowl: the answer is yes. someone knows.
18:16:47 <Snowyowl> the source code is a 2d maze, probably with some sort of doors and keys system
18:17:03 <Snowyowl> outputs 1 if there is a path through it and 0 if there is not
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18:17:16 <Snowyowl> requires nondeterministic computing to compile
18:17:26 <Snowyowl> or pathfinding or whatever it's called
18:18:05 <quintopia> if the door/key system is in a sense turing-complete
18:18:13 <quintopia> which is to say you can implement xircuits with it
18:19:13 <quintopia> so then the door/key system must not be TCthen
18:19:35 <quintopia> then no, i've never heard of anything like it
18:19:45 <Snowyowl> my idea is that every door can be open or closed
18:19:59 <Snowyowl> and keys/switches control them
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18:40:23 * oerjan wonders if Gregor has a sombrero
18:41:10 <Gregor> "Sombrero" is just Spanish for "hat"
18:41:22 <oerjan> i actually learned that just the other day.
18:41:24 <Gregor> That being said, http://codu.org/hats/Cowpoke-med.jpg.
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18:42:43 <Gregor> (I now finally have a skimmer, which is why I said "HATS")
18:45:28 <oerjan> excellent for steamboat strolling, i assume
18:51:44 <oerjan> now you just need to get chrome-free tapdancing shoes.
18:52:26 <Gregor> Naw, I'll just swindle ponies out of their cider.
18:55:14 * oerjan assumes that's a MLP reference
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19:00:13 <fizzie> Everything's full of multilayer perceptron references these days.
19:12:14 <Gregor> My Little Perceptron: Machine Learning is Magic
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19:22:55 <oerjan> olsner: you're not in sweden?
19:23:28 <oerjan> did sweden suddenly move?
19:24:22 <Taneb> Sweden has rollerskates now
19:27:24 <fizzie> There's that funnyish story about Great Britain moving.
19:27:32 <fizzie> http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/england.htm
19:28:00 <fizzie> Okay, it's kind of pointless.
19:33:35 <fizzie> Maybe more than kind of.
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19:50:39 <fizzie> I, uh... The... I mean, this... there's this Eurovision contest thing, and this one entry is... it's about "social networks".
19:51:09 <Taneb> How's the Eurovision doing?
19:51:10 <oerjan> well that's inevitable, isn't it.
19:51:15 <Taneb> UK sucking as usual?
19:51:17 <fizzie> It's called "The Social Network Song: oh oh uh oh oh".
19:51:29 <fizzie> We don't see you until the finals, I think.
19:51:44 <fizzie> Aren't you one of the guaranteed-in countries?
19:51:58 <oerjan> i don't watch tv, but i read somewhere that the uk's singer is supposedly engelbert humperdinck
19:52:00 <Taneb> I don't really follow it
19:52:05 <Taneb> oerjan, yeah it is
19:52:20 <fizzie> That seems to be the case.
19:52:30 <fizzie> The finals are on Saturday.
19:52:31 <Taneb> I think the Powers That Be thought, "I know what will win it this time! Getting someone who hasn't been popular for 40 years with a silly name!"
19:53:09 <fizzie> Our singer's singi in Swedish.
19:53:10 <oerjan> the silly name was taken from someone else who was dead already then, i read
19:53:24 <fizzie> I suppose they're hoping to get votes from Sweden.
19:53:56 <oerjan> fizzie: might work for norwegians too
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19:54:58 <fizzie> Sweden's song is titled "Euphoria", but I don't know what language they use. It's on the Thursday semifinal, not today.
19:55:44 <olsner> iirc it was english (I should not know this)
19:56:00 <fizzie> As seems to be Norway, with "Stay", by someone called "Tooji".
19:56:24 <fizzie> Denmark's on right at this moment, though.
19:57:22 <oerjan> tooji is a wholesome norwegian youth from pakistan or thereabouts.
19:57:32 <olsner> that social network song was not very good, I'm surprised
19:59:11 <fizzie> Our song included a musician (cellist?) who has lived in Israel earlier, which, according to the announcers of the Finnish TV broadcast, should net us some Israelite votes.
19:59:18 <fizzie> I'm not sure how that works.
19:59:45 <oerjan> i guess shachaf would vote for you if he wasn't in the us.
20:00:23 <Taneb> You guys in Finland, Sweden, and Norway get to be in a sweet voting block
20:00:28 <Taneb> And your entries don't suck
20:00:29 <fizzie> But they also mentioned that Finland and Estonia are the only two countries where the TV broadcast includes (translated) subtitles for the actual songs.
20:00:40 <Taneb> The UK has Ireland and Malta in our block
20:01:04 <oerjan> i thought denmark would be in ours, but maybe they're not participating?
20:01:18 <fizzie> 22:56 < fizzie> Denmark's on right at this moment, though.
20:01:48 -!- olsner has set topic: ESOTERIC SONG CONTEST | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:01:53 <Taneb> Are there any danes or icelanders in this channel?
20:02:22 <oerjan> i think i saw a dane here once. they're surprisingly rare.
20:02:34 <fizzie> Though I'm not sure if voting in these semifinals is restricted to countries in it? In which case this one would have only Finland, Denmark and I guess Iceland, which I missed; and then Norway and Sweden on Thursday.
20:02:42 <oerjan> while the icelanders are rare, unsurprisingly.
20:03:09 <Taneb> Iceland's bigger than Northumberland, and there's at least two Northumbrians here
20:04:01 <Taneb> (it's only bigger by about 6000, though)
20:04:18 <fizzie> I don't think Finland has really gotten so many votes from the "block", statistically speaking. I mean, sure, they vote for us more than the overall average, but it's often just a token one point.
20:04:27 <olsner> Taneb: bigger in area or population?
20:04:47 <fizzie> 6000 units bigger in area.
20:05:33 <Taneb> olsner, population
20:06:22 <olsner> if I lived on Iceland I'd probably be too busy running from volcanoes to spend a lot of time on IRC
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20:09:40 <fizzie> Uh... it's Austria and a "tracktor gangsta-rap duo".
20:10:33 <olsner> by austria, do you mean austria, australia or switzerland? :P
20:11:34 <fizzie> Australia hasn't historically had a large presence in the eurovision contest, I don't thing.
20:12:11 <olsner> I think Japan should join ESC, they belong in that kind of contest
20:12:24 <oerjan> fizzie: maybe the uk could send assange next year.
20:12:52 <olsner> (or maybe they should rather be in the esoteric song contest)
20:13:08 <kmc> have you seen assange's talk show?
20:13:09 <Taneb> And, for the Australian Entry, here's itidus21!
20:13:15 <kmc> it's pretty interesting / entertaining
20:14:51 <olsner> Taneb: hmm, good point there ... australia <-> austria <-> switzerland <-> sweden
20:15:25 <Taneb> <-> norway <-> denmark?
20:16:00 <olsner> yeah, scandinavia is all the same... and suddenly you're in finland and iceland too
20:16:39 <Taneb> norway <-> netherlands <-> belgium
20:16:57 <olsner> norway and netherlands? not sure
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20:17:19 <olsner> belgium and brussels though
20:17:42 <olsner> "which one is the country? both!"
20:21:01 <olsner> ... austria's is sending (sent?) some people calling themselves "trackshittaz" :S
20:21:07 <oerjan> i didn't hear brussels was a country - yet.
20:21:49 <fizzie> olsner: If our lyric transtions are accurate, the song title means roughly "shake your ass".
20:22:22 <olsner> woki mit deim popo = wookie with your poo poo?
20:24:10 <fizzie> oklofok: I only just now realized what your "euro neuro" was referring to. (I'd missed the three first, but they're doing short recaps now.)
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20:25:49 * oerjan recalls ye olde norwegian hit "rumpa mi" ("my ass")
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20:27:29 <Taneb> I am neither old nor norwegian enough to remember that
20:27:58 <oerjan> the olde is somewhat facetious, i heard it in 2004 or 2006 while up north, i think
20:28:27 <fizzie> Oh hay, Finland had the longest string of "been participating but never won" (1961-2003), but we screwed that up with our 2004 win; now it's Portugal (1964-present).
20:28:56 <Taneb> I thought Finland won in '06?
20:29:00 <olsner> oerjan: heh, cute song
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20:31:11 <Taneb> Lithuania should have won that year.
20:31:22 <Taneb> "We are the winners! Of Eurovision!
20:31:30 <oklofok> euro neuro was so stupid i think i blacked out. i just remember they guy said euro neuro.
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20:32:04 <oklofok> there's another retard singing about how she's gonna win this year
20:32:22 <oklofok> and the song is absolute shit
20:32:27 <fizzie> I was just going to @tell Taneb that.
20:32:36 <oklofok> it's not even catchy in a trivial pop music fashion
20:33:30 <fizzie> It's got quite a lot of "I'm the best person ever and will win everything" lyrics, not just a single refrain.
20:34:20 <oklofok> luckily my pizza was finished before i heard much
20:35:31 <oklofok> did they say that the euro neuro guy was a mathematician btw? i heard something about a mathematician before it but only paid attention during that word.
20:36:15 <mroman_> olsner: What's austria got to do with switzerland o_O
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20:37:06 <olsner> that and having no discernible difference, except for being different countries (but who keeps track of that?)
20:37:13 <fizzie> oklofok: His stage name is "Rambo Amadeus", which admittedly does sound quite mathematician-like.
20:37:26 <mroman_> There is a huge difference ;)
20:37:44 <mroman_> You're just too far away to notice.
20:37:59 <oklofok> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambo_Amadeus so i guess not
20:38:12 <oklofok> He graduated in tourism studies from the University of Belgrade's Faculty of Mathematics and Natural Sciences.
20:38:13 <olsner> oklofok: which song was the retarded i'm-gonna-win song?
20:38:29 <oklofok> a couple of songs after euro neuro
20:39:07 <mroman_> Austrians all speak the same language.
20:39:29 <olsner> they all speak swiss? :P
20:39:31 <fizzie> olsner: That was Latvia's "Beautiful Song".
20:41:20 <oklofok> disclaimer: the song may not have been quite as horrible as i implied, i just thought the topic was retarded.
20:41:31 <oklofok> but yeah it certainly wasn't very good.
20:41:39 <olsner> but more seriously, what *is* the difference between austria and switzerland?
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20:41:59 <fizzie> olsner: The first letter.
20:42:09 <olsner> cheese with holes? that's known to be swiss
20:42:14 <fizzie> Also some minor differences.
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20:43:01 <mroman_> olsner: We have cheese with holes, yes.
20:43:02 <olsner> (austria and australia also have different cultures and languages, but they're still the same country)
20:44:25 <olsner> fwiw, swedish cheese has holes too
20:46:04 <mroman_> "Austrians" sounds like a bird species.
20:46:16 <mroman_> "Swiss" sounds like "some guys who produce knives"
20:47:24 <olsner> ooh, right, those knives/multitools - and the guards in the vatican are swiss
20:47:32 <olsner> the poor austrians don't seem to have any distinguishing features
20:48:33 <mroman_> (They carry guns under their clothes)
20:49:05 <fizzie> Perhaps they are made of guns.
20:49:05 <mroman_> Else it would literally be "bringing a knife to a gun fight"
20:49:38 <olsner> I guess they could be "australia without the kangaroos" or "the one with the alps but *not* the cheese, the guards in the vatican or the army knives"
20:50:07 <mroman_> australia without the kangoroos sounds perfect.
20:50:21 <oerjan> olsner: austrians have opera
20:51:01 <olsner> opera is much more common in russia or indonesia though
20:51:45 <oerjan> i _assume_ that's a pun, because i read austria is #1 on the music version.
20:52:53 <olsner> apparently austria is the one that has vienna
20:54:50 <fizzie> Denmark and Iceland have already been accepted, but we haven't. :/
20:55:07 <fizzie> (Four more to announce.)
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20:57:17 <fizzie> The scary! Only one more.
20:58:13 <olsner> apparently prince Franz Ferdinand von Österreich-Esten, famous for starting the first world war, was austrian too
20:58:28 <olsner> (I was going to say "he was austrian, but ironically his last name is switzerland!" but then I realized)
21:01:33 <olsner> also famous for Hitler and Josef Fritz... poor austrians
21:02:19 <oerjan> and wolfgang priklopil.
21:02:30 <olsner> supposedly also famous for apfelstrudel (which I'd vaguely associate with vienna... but who keeps track of where vienna is?) and pez candy
21:03:08 <olsner> also Freud, apparently... but that probably doesn't help them since "everyone" "knows" he was German
21:08:41 <Gregor> And Johann Strauss Jr. *blech*
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21:12:52 <mroman_> All the famous musicians originated there.
21:17:49 <mroman_> Ironically most of them were black.
21:18:12 <kmc> Arnold Schwarzenegger is from Austria
21:18:25 <kmc> all the good musicians are from the UK
21:19:29 <kmc> franz ferdinand von not österreich
21:19:41 <kmc> and that's just recent ones
21:20:14 <kmc> beatles, pink floyd, rolling stones, led zeppelin
21:20:21 <kmc> basically the uk owns at music somehow
21:21:03 <shachaf> "beatles" would be a good name for a band.
21:21:22 <kmc> "as kmc would say", as shachaf would say
21:21:33 <kmc> yields falsehood when preceeded by its quotation
21:23:21 <mroman_> Louis Armstrong, Miles Davis, Dave Brubeck, Nat King Cole, Clark Terry, Robert Johnson, Howlin' Wolf, Lightnin' Hopkins, Muddy Waters, Ray Charles...
21:23:22 <shachaf> "yielding truth when preceded by its quotation would imply that 1=0" yielding truth when preceded by its quotation would imply that 1=0
21:23:31 <oklofok> beatles, pink floyd, rolling stones and led zeppelin are of these odd bands all sucky, trivial music.
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21:25:17 <shachaf> I don't know any of these things.
21:26:02 <kmc> shachaf: it's probably because you don't own a TV
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21:28:21 <shachaf> kmc: Have you seen _Rosencrantz And Guildenstern Are Dead_?
21:29:22 <pikhq_> kmc: You neglected Queen. (how dare you)
21:29:43 <kmc> i'll neglect you
21:29:58 <shachaf> pikhq_: Queen Elizabeth II?
21:30:34 <pikhq_> shachaf: No, no, Her Majesty is not a musician of note.
21:31:02 <pikhq_> Though several of Her subjects are.
21:31:17 <shachaf> "It's the future and Queen Elizabeth III and Queen Elizabeth IV are going to a party held by Queen Elizabeth V. They're keen to make the right impression so it's important that they choose their outfits carefully. Queen Elizabeth III has forty dresses to choose from, where as Queen Elizabeth IV has four thousand. Queen Elizabeth V has just one dress, but it has the ability to transform itself into the shape of any dress."
21:32:12 <shachaf> kmc: (I watched that MPEG stream over TCP/IP so it doesn't count as television.)
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21:46:43 <FireFly> Some random person who happens to be a bit interested in esolangs
21:47:06 <shachaf> And in Haskell and in StackOverflow and in JavaScript?
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21:50:59 <shachaf> kmc: Just think of all the exciting Control.Concurrent.Spawn discussions you're missing in #-blah!
21:53:25 <kmc> i did my time
21:54:15 <shachaf> kmc: Well, don't be surprised if you get a GitHub Pull Request!!!!!!!!
21:54:26 <kmc> what's the situation?
21:54:53 <shachaf> I think the idea is that your primitive should be parSequence{,_} instead of parMapM{,_}
21:55:20 <kmc> i also have (|*|) :: IO (a -> b) -> IO a -> IO b
21:56:13 <kmc> sequence = mapM id, right?
21:56:23 <kmc> shachaf: I tested it; I don't remember using it otherwise
21:57:06 <kmc> right, building sequence from mapM and building mapM from sequence are about equally difficult
21:57:12 <kmc> which is to say, neither is difficult
21:59:03 <kmc> and I think mapM is the more practically useful one
21:59:10 <kmc> at least, it's the one I use more often
22:00:10 <shachaf> kmc: You should tell Peaker before he wastes his time sending you a pull request!
22:00:43 <kmc> so i'm inclined to leave it alone, unless there's some additional consideration i'm missing
22:00:46 <kmc> i'll let him make his case :)
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23:40:57 <Sgeo> Why am I learning about Warsow, it's selling point that it heavily promotes is a turn-off for mne
23:43:32 <qfr> Sgeo what selling point would that be
23:43:46 <Sgeo> The whole "Movement is a skill" thing
23:44:06 <Sgeo> "What sets Warow apart from other FPS games
23:44:06 <Sgeo> Focus on movement as a skill with various possibilities of gaining speed and moving throughout levels."
23:45:12 <Sgeo> On the one hand, I like Tremulous, on the other two hands, I hate playing as alien and the community's practically dead
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23:58:12 <shachaf> kmc: UPDATE: Windows people still use "Unicode" to mean "UTF-16".
23:58:19 <kmc> of course :/
23:58:28 <shachaf> I guess that's more of a non-update.
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23:59:59 <kmc> sort of a BREAKING NEWS update
00:00:00 <qfr> shachaf no, it's not even UTF-16
00:00:09 <qfr> It's not Unicode standard conformant
00:00:23 <qfr> It's loosely based on UTF-16 but also Windows homebrew stuff I was told?
00:00:53 <kmc> it's probably based on UCS-2 actually
00:01:19 <kmc> anyway no surprise that Microsoft embraced and extended unicode
00:01:58 <qfr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCS-2#Use_in_major_operating_systems_and_environments hm
00:02:40 <madbr> what's the point of 16 bit unicode
00:03:43 <kmc> well the BMP includes most of the characters people actually care about
00:04:07 <shachaf> characterspeoplecareabout.bmp
00:04:22 <Gregor> Very much like ASCII includes most of the characters people actually carea bout.
00:05:43 <qfr> Gregor but it doesn't
00:06:04 <qfr> That only works for some 20% of the internet content?
00:07:17 <kmc> if you are ok with only BMP characters, then a 16-bit encoding is simple and supports many operations efficiently
00:07:46 <kmc> so that's "the point of 16-bit Unicode"
00:08:06 <kmc> the other point is that Unicode had only 16 bits of characters until about 1999
00:08:41 <kmc> so it especially makes sense that the Windows NT API uses 16-bit characters
00:10:21 <shachaf> Kind of unfair of Unicode, really.
00:10:59 <shachaf> They should've used Unicode Big Endian from the start, obviously!
00:11:51 <kmc> it's a tradition of #esoteric that if you say something dumb, we will mock you for it for months
00:12:08 <kmc> hey shachaf, are you still angry at that one person who I forgot the nick of who liked PHP
00:12:11 <kmc> because i am
00:12:27 <shachaf> (I don't think I got angry about that at the time.)
00:12:34 <kmc> i don't remember
00:12:50 <shachaf> kmc: Anyway, this is an intellectual sort of channel where we mock ideas, not people!
00:12:56 <shachaf> This makes us better than other channels.
00:13:05 <shachaf> I mean it makes our ideas better than other channels' ideas.
00:13:54 <shachaf> The Win32 interface for getting the command line apparently gives you one long string that you have to parse yourself.
00:14:05 <madbr> 16 bit unicode has byte order mark
00:14:20 <kmc> whereas the POSIX interface gives you several long strings that you have to parse yourself
00:14:23 <Sgeo> Where are these slow-paced FPSes that Warsow contrasts itself with?
00:14:25 <Sgeo> I want to try one
00:14:57 <kmc> play counterstrike, hide in the toilets
00:15:00 <qfr> Sgeo BF/CoD/MW series
00:15:03 <kmc> nice slow pace
00:15:05 <qfr> Presumably
00:15:41 <Sgeo> http://tremulous.net/media/files/microtrem.jpg
00:15:50 <Sgeo> Never tried those
00:15:53 <Sgeo> Any of them free?
00:18:21 <Sgeo> I guess Allegiance might be described as slow
00:18:27 <Sgeo> Hardly popular, though
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01:25:44 <pikhq> Microsoft seems to be working very hard to make Windows 8 suck.
01:26:59 <pikhq> Among other things, Microsoft is no longer providing a free Win32-targetting compiler.
01:27:46 <pikhq> Thereby hurting the single greatest asset they have: Win32 is used by nearly everything.
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01:36:31 <tswett> So, what my code is doing is this.
01:36:46 <tswett> Read a byte from file A. Read a byte from file B. Read a byte from file C. Write a byte to file D. Repeat six and a half billion times.
01:37:36 <tswett> Is that going to be as slow as it sounds like it's going to be, or is the operating system going to make it all okay?
01:39:25 <kmc> if you're actually making a system call for every byte, it will be extremely slow
01:39:42 <kmc> if you're using the standard IO libraries of some language, they will buffer for you
01:40:39 <tswett> I guess that doesn't change the fact that this is only going at, like, a gigabyte an hour or something.
01:40:42 <kmc> you can use strace or similar tool to confirm
01:41:04 <kmc> i'm confused why you're asking if it will be slow, when you already know how fast it is :)
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01:50:01 <tswett> You see, it all started back in the year 428, when King Gunderic of the Vandals and Alans died and was succeeded by his half-brother Genseric.
01:52:07 <itidus21> ah, yes, that makes it quite clear
01:59:02 <shachaf> kmc: I assume tswett wants to know if it's slow relative to what it could be.
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02:03:15 <BlueProtoman> I've got a question for those familiar with Brainfuck. I'm writing a BF interpreter in C++11. How can I easily jump from a '[' to a ']' if the value at the pointer is 0?
02:03:47 <shachaf> Sorry, you need to be using C++12 for that.
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02:09:04 <kmc> loop through the characters in the program
02:09:21 <kmc> keep a counter, increment it when you see '[', decrement when you see ']'
02:09:36 <Gregor> Typically people maintain a table of all the matches, so when you actually run it, you just have to look it up in the table.
02:11:14 <pikhq> Alternately, you can compile those into conditional jumps, and then interpret the resulting bytecode.
02:11:31 <BlueProtoman> kmc: I already know how to handle whether or not we have the right balance of []'s.
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02:12:02 <pikhq> BlueProtoman: Ah, right, doing it in C++. Making parsing a bloody *pain*.
02:12:13 <kmc> BlueProtoman: that algorithm isn't just good for detecting whether brackets are balanced
02:12:17 <kmc> you can use it to find the matching bracket
02:12:19 <kmc> just like i said
02:12:33 <kmc> caching those results in a table is a fine optimization, but not necessary
02:13:06 <pikhq> True, it's perfectly workable, if slow, to just do that grepping each time you execute a [ or ].
02:14:58 <kmc> scan the program left to right
02:15:04 <kmc> when you see a '[', push its index onto a stack
02:15:11 <kmc> when you see ']', pop the stack
02:15:40 <kmc> you now have the indices of both brackets; enter those into your table(s)
02:16:18 <kmc> and not a std::stack ?
02:16:29 <kmc> no, for the stack :)
02:16:51 <kmc> vector is a fine choice for the table
02:17:42 <kmc> or you can have each instruction of the BF program be a struct / object in its own right
02:17:52 <kmc> and make the linking of brackets be a field in that object
02:19:15 <BlueProtoman> Actually, each instruction is a lambda function stored in an unordered map.
02:19:40 <BlueProtoman> Calling it is as easy as just instructions[program[i]], handling exceptions as necessary.
02:20:00 <BlueProtoman> I wanna add a lot of derivatives to my interpreter, this'll make it really easy to do
02:22:30 <BlueProtoman> Why couldn't I use a std::vector as the brace stack AND the brace table? It supports push and pop operations.
02:22:51 <kmc> you mean two vectors? or the same one for both, somehow?
02:23:19 <BlueProtoman> Oh, wait, I see. When I finish up, it should be empty.
02:23:30 <BlueProtoman> Never mind. I'd have to add things to the vector along the way.
02:23:38 <kmc> yes, otherwise the braces are unmatched
02:23:49 <madbr> what's wrong with that?
02:24:12 <kmc> depending on your reading of the brainfuck rules, it is allowed
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02:25:30 <kmc> you could say that ] is a valid brainfuck program, because it's a conditional jump (to nowhere) which is not taken
02:25:47 <kmc> similarly +[
02:26:02 <kmc> i don't know if there is an authoritative source on this
02:28:59 <kmc> BlueProtoman: sure, you can use a std::vector as a stack, it will work fine
02:29:37 <BlueProtoman> kmc: I know *that*. I don't think we're all on the same page here, but thanks.
02:30:11 <kmc> there are a few reasons to use the container which supports only the operations you need
02:31:09 <kmc> i guess i won't list them
02:42:53 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/UfLP If anyone wants to tell me how I'm being stupid, please do so.
02:44:26 <madbr> reming me what static functions do in plain C
02:44:51 <pikhq> Aren't exported outside of the compilation unit.
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02:51:11 <pikhq> Oh, and if you don't want to be psychic, I'm *trying* to create a Huffman table.
02:51:36 <pikhq> And it ends up creating one, except it omits entirely a lot of characters.
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05:21:15 <pikhq> Correct answer is "use a less obtuse algorithm".
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08:54:07 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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08:54:07 <elliott> 19:12 <Guest28135> Try to check the site of cottages in BALI: www.bebaucottage.comli.com
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08:55:57 <elliott> 18:41:24: <Gregor> That being said, http://codu.org/hats/Cowpoke-med.jpg.
08:56:11 <elliott> Gregor: you look so serious and world-weary
08:56:34 <elliott> please sing depressing songs about failure while wearing that hat
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08:56:58 <elliott> 19:50:39: <fizzie> I, uh... The... I mean, this... there's this Eurovision contest thing, and this one entry is... it's about "social networks".
08:57:03 <elliott> fizzie: NO did I miss Eurovision???
08:57:46 <Sgeo> Is Brogue good?
08:57:58 <elliott> Also: re: on the subject of: songs about social networks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbYqDFvM0wE
08:58:02 <Sgeo> I know it's been talked about in here, and I just saw it mentioned in a Reddit thread
08:58:44 <elliott> I wonder if ais523 is still addicted to it.
08:58:54 <Sgeo> There's no Brogue servers?
08:59:19 <elliott> Didn't you ask that days ago?
08:59:27 <elliott> It would look pretty ugly in a terminal, anyway.
08:59:35 <elliott> It saves a recording file.
09:00:15 <elliott> The game spoils everything you need to know from inside.
09:00:16 <Sgeo> I like spoilers
09:00:18 <elliott> The game spoils everything you need to know from inside.
09:00:33 <elliott> e.g. look at an enemy and you get information on how, and how fast, it can kill you.
09:00:54 <elliott> No spoilers required is a design goal, I think.
09:02:28 <Sgeo> Hey, it has autoexplore
09:02:30 <elliott> 19:51:58: <oerjan> i don't watch tv, but i read somewhere that the uk's singer is supposedly engelbert humperdinck
09:02:37 <elliott> It's spelled "Benedict Cumberbatch".
09:02:44 <elliott> Sgeo: The autoexplore is not really useful.
09:02:50 <elliott> (It even has an auto-play, technically.)
09:03:06 <elliott> The levels are small and filled with stuff, so mostly shift+direction is what's useful.
09:03:08 <Sgeo> Blah I need to resize the window
09:03:19 <fizzie> elliott: Just the first semifinal of it.
09:03:41 <elliott> 19:53:19: <oklofok> euro neuro
09:03:56 <elliott> fizzie: Is it onlinebroadcasterated?
09:04:12 <Sgeo> How do I resize the window?
09:04:30 <fizzie> Our national BBC-alike (YLE) onlinecasts it, but possibly only within Finland. But I suppose quite a few other TV companies do too?
09:04:31 <elliott> It depends on the OS, technically.
09:05:33 <elliott> Oh, http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01j741p/Eurovision_Song_Contest_2012_SemiFinal_One.
09:05:49 <fizzie> Yes, it's in your "iPlayer" too.
09:05:57 <fizzie> I was just checking for that.
09:06:07 <fizzie> Ours is yle.fi/areena but it speaks Finnish only, I think.
09:06:19 <elliott> 'Eurovision Song Contest: 2012: Semi-Final One' may be unsuitable for young audiences.
09:06:19 <elliott> Yes, I am aged 16 or older
09:06:26 <elliott> Sgeo: K Desktop Environment
09:06:44 <Sgeo> Yes, but what is its relevence to everything else>?
09:06:47 <elliott> fizzie: So does Finland not get it live?
09:07:08 <elliott> fizzie: (Also I think Finnish narration is probably funnier.)
09:07:34 <fizzie> It is sent live, too; it's some other part of YLE Areena where live broadcasts go, but anyway.
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09:07:48 <fizzie> The recording -- http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1525991 -- is "watchable only in Finland", according to the description.
09:08:01 <elliott> "and the Hump himself will be here".
09:08:53 <fizzie> Correspondingly, yours doesn't work for me. "Currently BBC iPlayer TV programmes are available to play in the UK only."
09:09:06 <elliott> I always forget that the problem with Eurovision is that you have to watch two hours of it.
09:09:30 <fizzie> It's more like six hours for both semifinals and the final.
09:09:49 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, but those are in separate bits.
09:10:12 <Sgeo> "It will reveal its secrets to you if you wear it for 1000 turns"
09:10:42 <elliott> Sgeo: i.e. it identifies itself.
09:11:04 <elliott> Sgeo: ("Secrets" here means "the enchantment".)
09:11:10 <elliott> (Note that they can be negative.)
09:11:16 <elliott> I guess that message could be a little clearer.
09:11:36 <Sgeo> Huh, so paralysis actually has a timer thing go across the screen
09:11:50 <elliott> Yeah, pretty much any effect has a meter bar.
09:12:10 <elliott> BTW, the easiest way to look at dungeon features/monsters is to hover over them. And also the click-to-autotravel thing is really useful.
09:12:42 <elliott> 20:28:27: <fizzie> Oh hay, Finland had the longest string of "been participating but never won" (1961-2003), but we screwed that up with our 2004 win; now it's Portugal (1964-present).
09:13:40 <elliott> AND LET THE EUROVISION SONG CONTEST BEGIIIIN and then one of them goes on a bit too long "IIIIN".
09:13:49 <Sgeo> Is Easy Mode a bad idea?
09:14:28 <elliott> Sgeo: I haven't played it. But I expect you'll get bored.
09:14:37 <elliott> The first floors aren't really hard anyway.
09:18:29 <elliott> 21:18:25: <kmc> all the good musicians are from the UK
09:19:43 <elliott> EURO NEURO MONETARY BREAK DANCE
09:20:50 <elliott> "That was Montenegro, they've never reached the final in three attempts here on Eurovision."
09:21:10 <elliott> Oh wait, I think the presenter was being sarc—
09:21:44 <fizzie> I only heard a few seconds of euro neuro, but the way he says the "euro neuro" bit sounds somehow Finnish.
09:22:09 <elliott> fizzie: You need to hear the whole thing.
09:22:12 <elliott> It's a religious experience.
09:22:40 <elliott> Wow Iceland this isn't very good.
09:22:43 <Sgeo> Why is QuakeNet so popular?
09:23:06 <fizzie> Iceland qualified for the finals.
09:24:12 <fizzie> Greece had a song that was exactly like the songs they always have.
09:25:43 <elliott> It's really annoying how the vocals are always mixed to be about 2x louder than the music in Eurovision. It makes everything sound even worse.
09:25:49 <elliott> I guess that might be an upside.
09:26:19 <elliott> Or did their 100% RATE get RUINED?
09:28:49 <fizzie> The Finnish subtitles for the song lyrics are occasionally hilarious, though I don't recall really spectacular examples offhand.
09:29:53 <elliott> Do we get subtitles? I forget.
09:31:22 <fizzie> According to Finnish announcers, only Finland and Estonia provide subtitles for the songs.
09:31:51 <fizzie> They're all singing your language anyway. Well, not quite all. But most.
09:34:14 <elliott> Why would she want their aphrodisiac if she's already like this?
09:34:16 <elliott> Come on, this is so unrealistic.
09:35:48 <fizzie> Oh, the Beautiful Song.
09:36:06 <fizzie> Sadly, they didn't qualify.
09:36:12 <Sgeo> *sigh* what game am I downloading now
09:36:19 <elliott> 23:58:12: <shachaf> kmc: UPDATE: Windows people still use "Unicode" to mean "UTF-16".
09:36:23 <elliott> shachaf: Is that Big or Little Endian?
09:36:29 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, it's that thing?
09:36:34 <elliott> fizzie: This will be good.
09:36:47 <elliott> Sgeo: Hope you enjoyed your 3 minutes of Brogue.
09:37:06 <shachaf> elliott: I think that joke was already made.
09:37:19 <Sgeo> Playing a roguelike with a GUI is weird
09:37:23 <elliott> shachaf: Well, those were the last lines in the log.
09:37:37 <elliott> Sgeo: It's not really a "GUI".
09:37:40 <shachaf> Sgeo: MORE LIKE A ROGUEUNLIKE, AM I RIGHT?
09:37:54 <fizzie> More like a ROGUILIKE.
09:38:09 <Sgeo> DF needs an interface like that though
09:38:11 <elliott> 00:12:08: <kmc> hey shachaf, are you still angry at that one person who I forgot the nick of who liked PHP
09:38:19 <elliott> kmc: I'm only angry because he hecked my aim.
09:39:43 <elliott> 02:16:24: <BlueProtoman> For the table?
09:39:44 <elliott> 02:16:29: <kmc> no, for the stack :)
09:39:46 <elliott> 02:16:51: <kmc> vector is a fine choice for the table
09:40:28 <shachaf> Quick, someone draw a caricature of elliott as a donkey between two haystacks!
09:40:31 <elliott> 02:25:30: <kmc> you could say that ] is a valid brainfuck program, because it's a conditional jump (to nowhere) which is not taken
09:40:31 <elliott> 02:25:47: <kmc> similarly +[
09:40:31 <elliott> 02:26:02: <kmc> i don't know if there is an authoritative source on this
09:40:36 <elliott> kmc: strong consensus is that it is not valid
09:40:42 <elliott> I don't know what the original implementation does
09:41:29 <elliott> [ Starts loop, flag under pointer
09:41:34 <elliott> from the original command reference
09:41:52 <shachaf> What if there's a needle in their haystack?
09:42:35 <shachaf> Would they use a Brayer-Moore algorithm?
09:42:47 <shachaf> I wish I was a donkey. :-(
09:43:17 <elliott> Did you know that the most fun thing is applying a huge patch by hand?
09:43:59 <shachaf> elliott: I used an exciting WINDOWS DEBUGGER today!
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09:53:06 <fizzie> Are we to assume that now Windows no longer has bugs?
09:56:18 <shachaf> Don't worry, you can still make fun of PHP.
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10:01:14 <elliott> Oops, I forgot to unpause Eurovision.
10:02:03 <elliott> "Beautiful song that everybody knows, that everybody loves"
10:03:37 <elliott> fizzie: Perhaps they're talking about some other hypothetical song?
10:03:41 <Sgeo> I'm starting to have the impression that all these FPSes are the exact same damn game
10:04:23 <elliott> fizzie: Is Albania's good?
10:04:34 <elliott> "If you've got any pets, you might want to put them in another room."
10:05:23 <elliott> Her hair is... interesting.
10:07:22 <elliott> Well, this is the best one so far on the sole basis of not sounding predictable.
10:08:26 <elliott> fizzie: Why can't UK viewers vote???
10:08:35 <Sgeo> I should just play whatever game all these games are based on
10:08:43 <Sgeo> Quake 3 Arena I think? Is that free/
10:08:44 <elliott> "UK VIEWERS DO NOT VOTE IN THIS SEMI FINAL: Your vote won't count and you may be charged."
10:10:12 <elliott> "The waterline could be anything you want it to be."
10:10:23 <elliott> "I actually... grab... ass."
10:10:55 <elliott> fizzie: "I can't do it. I can't do it at all." "Why are you here then?" "...it is mystery!" --Euro Neuro guy.
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10:12:24 * Sgeo wonders if anyone plays openArena
10:13:13 <Sgeo> 27 players on right now
10:13:55 <shachaf> elliott: HINT: Every disc covers at least one rational point, so you can't have more discs on a plane than rationals.
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10:15:04 <elliott> shachaf: oklopol already spoiled the answer, anyway.
10:23:52 <elliott> why isn't everyone eurovision
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10:24:51 <shachaf> Isn't that the Molvania thing?
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11:52:31 <elliott> welcome back Phantom_Hoover we missed you
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11:55:59 <elliott> welcome back Phantom_Hoover we missed you
11:59:17 <Sgeo> How many times has Phantom_Hoover died?
11:59:37 <Sgeo> Hmm, he should really be Phantom^n_Hoover
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12:35:46 <elliott> shachaf: Your country's music is weird.
12:36:58 <Gregor> elliott: Your country's music is weird.
12:48:03 * Sgeo has decided to refer to everyone in the third person
12:48:32 * Sgeo has no real reason for doing so other than the awkwardness of above lines where he referred to Phantom_Hoover in the third person.
12:51:31 <Phantom_Hoover> the third person is the normal way to refer to other people if you're not directly addressing them
12:52:09 * Sgeo thinks it was awkward that he was not directly addressing Phantom_Hoover though, although Phantom_Hoover was right there.
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13:09:47 <HackEgo> ogrom: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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13:11:58 <elliott> Gregor: Yooooooo fix this bug for me
13:19:45 <Sgeo> The one where people think this is an esoterica channel?
13:21:07 <Sgeo> Mouse battery dead
13:23:29 <Sgeo> Found some batteries
13:23:44 <elliott> Sgeo: You should fix the bug for me.
13:24:24 <elliott> Spellcast aiming in tiles is a bit weird.
13:24:48 <Sgeo> Well, I don't know what game this is, and I don't know what "weird" is
13:24:54 <elliott> Gregor: See, it's practically garbage collection code.
13:25:13 <elliott> And "weird" is "it omits most of two rows of the target except one square is included in the second-last row".
13:27:02 <elliott> Hmm, I guess I'll check beam.cc again...
13:27:28 <elliott> And dungeon.cc (maybe), glwrapper.cc (doubtful), item_use.cc, spl-cast.cc, spl-util.cc.
13:27:48 <elliott> And viewgom.cc, viewmap.cc.
13:30:27 <elliott> Note to self: Perhaps suggest showing success percentage rather than failure percentage.
13:30:38 <elliott> Also check out why it says 0 for <= 2.
13:30:43 <elliott> (in spl-cast.cc, failure_rate_to_string)
13:31:31 <elliott> Other things to check: the Fire Storm-specific code.
13:44:44 <elliott> Checked spl-cast.cc, on to spl-util.cc.
13:45:57 <elliott> if (flags & SPFLAG_TARGETING_MASK)
13:47:53 <elliott> // FUNCTION APPLICATORS: Idea from Juho Snellman <jsnell@lyseo.edu.ouka.fi>
13:47:53 <elliott> // on the Roguelike News pages, Development section.
13:47:53 <elliott> // <URL:http://www.skoardy.demon.co.uk/rlnews/>
13:47:54 <elliott> Ah, yes, the arcane magicks of functions that TAKE OTHER FUNCTIONS AS PARAMETERS AND APPLY THEM.
13:48:07 <elliott> // Applies the effect to all nine squares around/including the target.
13:48:07 <elliott> // Returns summation of return values from passed in function.
13:48:07 <elliott> // Applies the effect to the eight squares beside the target.
13:48:08 <elliott> // Returns summation of return values from passed in function.
13:48:18 <elliott> TODO: Look into adjacent_iterator.
13:48:41 <elliott> (Except this doesn't explain why it only happens in tiles, gah! Grep for uses of apply_area_square, apply_area_around_square.)
13:48:52 <elliott> (Also apply_area_within_radius.)
13:48:59 <elliott> (But that uses radius_iterator, so...)
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14:05:50 <elliott> TODO: Come back to tilereg-spl.cc.
14:10:55 <elliott> TODO: Come back to tilereg.cc.
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14:18:18 <elliott> Probably not viewmap.cc, by the looks of it.
14:18:35 <elliott> TODO: Check dungeon.cc, glwrapper.cc, item_use.cc; do those greps, and check back on the things.
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14:21:12 <Sgeo> Why do I keep trying different FPSes?
14:21:17 <Sgeo> They're all the same
14:22:44 <Sgeo> It seems like they're mostly just different themes
14:22:48 <Sgeo> A few exceptions
14:22:54 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're going to claim TF2, CoD-alikes and HL2 are all the same...
14:23:00 <elliott> Sgeo: just like 3D virtual world games, then?
14:23:23 <cheater> Sgeo: hitman 5 looks real good.
14:23:40 <cheater> i've never thought i'd want to play a hitman game, but this one is compelling.
14:23:56 <Sgeo> I don't know what CoD is like
14:24:06 <Sgeo> But I think these are all Quake [123] like
14:24:46 <cheater> Sgeo, but quake 1 had a totally different storyline to quake 3!
14:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Quake is about fast movement, aiming to account for that and dodging.
14:25:31 <Sgeo> I mean, Xonotic, World of Padman, Warsow, Urban Terror (probably),
14:25:50 <Sgeo> Tremulous at least has base building and an alien team
14:26:30 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're trying open-source FPSes, I seem to recall that like all of them are built on the Quake engine.
14:26:33 <cheater> oh now they have also made an unreal tournament clone on the crysis engine called Nexuiz or something
14:27:02 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, that's what I meant
14:27:57 * Sgeo wonders if America's Army is fun
14:28:06 <elliott> please don't play us army propaganda
14:28:25 <Phantom_Hoover> *Hopefully* that Source port is real and will arrive fairly soon.
14:29:40 <elliott> 15:28 Reply(367): #esoteric *!*@g230223105.adsl.alicedsl.de ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 1337155762
14:30:09 <cheater> i assumed ais just unbanned me, since i hadn't rebooted my modem
14:30:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hey, America's Army has those crazy level designs.
14:31:09 <Sgeo> So, what games have similar play to AA/
14:31:20 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater, I don't think it was intended to be temporary.
14:32:15 <cheater> *shrug* nothing to lose life over
14:32:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, well assuming it's an ultra-realistic military sim, ARMA 2?
14:32:19 <Sgeo> What's the difference between Quake III Arena and Unreal Tournament?
14:32:43 <cheater> some new team modes in UT that didn't pick up that much
14:34:10 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, free version has no support for mods o.O
14:34:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: FSVO ultra-realistic.
14:35:12 <Sgeo> I think I'm mostly interested in strategic stuff
14:35:12 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, um the sunken city of R'lyeh is one of the future battlegrounds for democracy.
14:35:15 <Sgeo> Or is it tactical?
14:36:20 <Sgeo> I just wish that the first place I had heard of Arma 2 from wasn't some religious nut's YouTube channel
14:36:40 <Sgeo> Although that video actually had nothing to do with religion, except for the stuff in the description
14:37:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Well um I didn't play it for long but seeing as it takes about 3 shots to put you down and combat is pretty long ranged, I'm guessing it's tactical.
14:43:03 <Sgeo> <3 Pentagonal Dreams
14:43:45 <elliott> Excuse me it must only be called The Enigma Menu Song (RIP; Will Be Missed).
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14:44:20 <elliott> The welcomes, they never stop.
14:44:22 <HackEgo> ogrom: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:44:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You know, the thing that used to be the Enigma menu music.
14:44:54 <elliott> http://modarchive.org/index.php?request=view_by_moduleid&query=73118 This thing.
14:46:08 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1ycI_zz1jo&t=9m47s
14:46:27 <elliott> Sgeo: um no that is a false god.
14:46:31 <elliott> Only Enigma is allowed to use that music.
14:50:16 <Sgeo> elliott, it's gone from all versions of Enigma, not just Debian's or something?
14:50:20 <cheater> Sgeo, http://youtu.be/bQ4lLu4huzQ
14:51:12 <elliott> Sgeo: But it was removed from Debian's first, I think.
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15:01:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They didn't have a license for it.
15:02:06 <elliott> Or rather, it was non-free.
15:02:09 <elliott> It was just "freely redistributable" or something, I think.
15:19:08 <coppro> why does haskell have no function to count elements of a list matching a predicate?
15:19:57 <elliott> coppro: Because it's a trivial composition of existing functions:
15:20:28 * elliott awaits the kmc "trivial" police.
15:21:15 <lambdabot> Prelude any :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Bool
15:21:15 <lambdabot> Data.List any :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Bool
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15:22:07 <coppro> elliott: but length . filter is inefficient
15:22:23 <elliott> coppro: If you think it makes two passes over the list, it doesn't (and you need to refine your understanding of non-strict evaluation).
15:22:43 <elliott> From an operational point of view, length forces each cell of the list as it goes along it ,causing the computation in filter, and so on.
15:23:03 <coppro> forgot about lazy eval again
15:23:06 <elliott> (That also means that once it passes a cell, it can be garbage-collected, but you'd need an awfully large list of booleans for that to matter.)
15:23:12 <coppro> I keep doing that after not programming Haskell for >1 week
15:23:17 <elliott> coppro: It does wonders for efficient composition :)
15:23:36 <coppro> I've written non-trivial stuff before where efficiency mattered :)
15:23:47 <coppro> and where infinite lists were involved
15:23:53 <coppro> so getting the order of evaluation right was important
15:24:30 <elliott> mon-util.h:47: error: ‘int8_t’ does not name a type
15:28:07 <elliott> Sgeo: Did you know that Crawl considers squares a type of circle?
15:28:23 <elliott> In fact, the circle_def class will assume you mean a square circle unless you specify otherwise.
15:30:22 <Taneb> As opposed to a circular circle
15:30:28 <Taneb> elliott, can you hear thunder?
15:32:21 <fizzie> Can't you hear, can't you hear the thunder? / You better run, you better take cover.
15:32:55 <elliott> Ah, the famous Scottish anthem.
15:34:03 <fizzie> I though it was from that song about Austria.
15:35:29 <elliott> fizzie: You mean Switzerland.
15:39:16 <elliott> (To spoil the joke: Wikipedia once referred to Men at Work as a "Scottish-Australian" band and this was relevant somehow when I was talking to Phantom_Hoover.)
15:40:09 <Taneb> The two cities the song names are brussels and bombay. Hence it must be about the Dutch Empire in Indea
15:54:16 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, this is correct.
15:55:09 <Sgeo> I haven't been to many of those places
15:55:40 <Sgeo> And these days no one is anywhere but the entry area
15:57:40 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, the I have to take a piss scene and what's going to happen after that?
15:58:20 <Sgeo> That maze is not put together in a physically possible way.
15:58:36 <Sgeo> You can end up seeing yourself
15:59:52 <Sgeo> Some of them area
16:00:02 <Sgeo> Bathroom with its maze
16:00:25 <Sgeo> What do you mean by norm?
16:01:58 <Sgeo> "It's just a cube"
16:02:02 <Sgeo> Come on you can't find the maze?
16:02:08 <Sgeo> Hmm, Worlds, Inc seems to be fond of weird mazes
16:02:16 <Sgeo> There's an invisible maze in that room
16:02:59 <Sgeo> The beach is not a place that Worlds, Inc built, but it's the most common hangout now
16:03:15 <Sgeo> Well, both it and the normal starting area have overlapping chat
16:03:55 <Sgeo> As in, two worlds, but someone who is in one is visible in another as though they're there.... well, two worlds sharing one ... chatters and their locations thing
16:05:11 <Sgeo> I didn't even know cel-shading was possible in Worlds
16:05:50 <Sgeo> Oh, the weird colored purple and yellow walls are the colors of the walls of the default room when one makes a new room
16:06:56 <Sgeo> "I did not type that"
16:07:18 <Sgeo> Individual's Worlds can force people to say things I think
16:08:12 <Sgeo> This place looks user-created
16:08:24 <Sgeo> I'd like to know who made it, by that beach there's a list of user-made worlds
16:08:34 <Sgeo> If this place is active, it's likely listed there
16:08:48 <Sgeo> Or the beach's list might not have been updated
16:09:40 <Sgeo> "Walk into myself"
16:09:54 <Sgeo> An easy effect, two portals, one as a mirror one as not
16:10:36 <Sgeo> HOW ARE THESE PLACES SO POPULATED?
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16:10:57 <Sgeo> The walking in space thing is used on the Meteor for some reason
16:11:06 <Sgeo> Walking between the Meteor and the Avatar Gallery
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16:11:50 <Sgeo> The place with the elevator looks like a mockery of a Worlds Inc world
16:13:02 <Sgeo> Spy worlds tend to be like that, but I don't think this is a spy world
16:13:08 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, sorry for the chatter
16:13:53 <elliott> It is unforgivable. You will be exterminated.
16:14:30 * Sgeo hmms at the forced av changes
16:14:37 <Sgeo> That is not something I was aware was possible.
16:14:41 <Sgeo> Voluntary av changes, yes
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16:17:37 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I can always give you a tour of Worlds, although I do not know many of those places
16:18:32 <Sgeo> The scariest thing I'm likely to do to you is enter a mirror
16:19:38 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I might need to give you the download link, the website is broken :(
16:22:12 <Sgeo> Arma 2 wanted me to press the enter key on my numpad
16:22:18 <Sgeo> I don't have an enter key on my numpad
16:23:50 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, there's a place called the Gauntlet
16:24:07 <Sgeo> You go into one room, you see a window into a world. The next room, new window, different world
16:24:20 <Sgeo> And you see windows into all the builtin worlds
16:24:37 <Sgeo> (It was made for technical reasons but isn't necessary anymore. Still cool though)
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16:30:54 <Sgeo> o.O just saw a video that was an official place but I've never seen
16:30:59 <Sgeo> I've never been in the Sports pod
16:32:14 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBNDa4y3pSo looks like more of a tour of the official worlds
16:32:43 <itidus21> i like it.. none of this boring second life crap
16:33:58 <itidus21> Hookstone also trapped. His soul will never be free.
16:34:03 <Sgeo> With Second Life, multiple people can build in the same place
16:34:13 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so guessing the creepiness was just kind of a thing in the community.
16:34:22 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I... guess?
16:34:40 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, look at video I linked starting at 39 minutes
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16:35:55 <itidus21> The gdsgewyedws have been hoiedwied
16:35:58 <Sgeo> Why is it so easy to miss the weird parts of the maze
16:36:25 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:36:38 <Sgeo> Oh, it shows more of the maze
16:36:58 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
16:37:15 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: well.. i do like weird though
16:37:36 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, there are a lot of portals in it, basically.
16:37:43 <Sgeo> Worlds uses portals a lot
16:38:30 <itidus21> i like qwop, i liked the stupid conspiracy theories until i started to realize people were actually haunted by such ideas day to day
16:39:45 <itidus21> well there is fun happy weird and theres austrian basement weird
16:40:26 <Sgeo> Oh, all those "Need to download a world" dialogs in that video are obsolete
16:40:34 <Sgeo> And that was the problem the Gauntlet was intended to solve
16:40:41 <Sgeo> One place where you deal with all of that garbage
16:44:31 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, there's a Sadness pod
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16:46:01 <Sgeo> Yes. Worlds Center has these pod offshoots
16:46:06 <Sgeo> Little cute worlds
16:46:29 <Sgeo> Well, not "cute"
16:46:36 <Sgeo> But it's a space station
16:46:47 <Sgeo> You walk around it, then go to this arm that's part of the space station
16:46:53 <Sgeo> Then there's a "Skydoor" to a world
16:47:00 <Sgeo> So, there's a Sadness world
16:47:11 <Sgeo> (Right near the Glee world)
16:47:18 <Sgeo> And that's Glee as in the emotion
16:47:46 <elliott> Who needs Glee when you have Hanson?
16:48:27 <Sgeo> elliott, is that a random remark, or did you see Hanson in one of the videos?
16:48:36 <Sgeo> Because there's a bunch of Hanson stuff for some reason.
16:48:39 <elliott> 16:54 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqel0k0NzNU
16:48:56 <elliott> You're missing out if you stopped watching it.
16:50:21 <Sgeo> Going to see if I can find the hand garden
16:51:37 <Sgeo> I felt nothing weird about it
16:52:59 <itidus21> i know several videos have been posted so just to clarify, i felt that the vine sauce worlds exploration video was weird
16:53:20 <itidus21> and its interesting that you don't
16:53:35 <Sgeo> There's a "Halloween Ground Zero"
16:53:38 <Sgeo> And a "Worlds Hell"
16:55:01 <elliott> Sgeo: Yeah, a creepy-looking dog thing that tells you they want to show you were they were born and then takes you to a glaringly-bright cartoon world with a bunch of animal sprites and then to a weird messed-up world and makes you say things about Jesus dying on the cross or whatever and then turns you into a skeleton and then turns you into a weird mechanical-looking thing when you walk out isn't weird at all.
16:55:10 <elliott> Happened to me the other day.
16:55:31 <Sgeo> Creepy looking dog is one of the built-in avs
16:55:44 <Sgeo> User-made worlds can force people to say things
16:55:57 <Sgeo> And ... I'm not sure about the forcibly changing someone's av. That's bizarre.
16:56:01 <Sgeo> I should try it
16:56:22 <elliott> Sgeo: To clarify: things can be weird without being seemingly-impossible.
16:56:33 <elliott> Someone making that world and then doing that to random people is weird.
16:58:20 <Sgeo> ....Sista_ClickMe
16:58:26 <Phantom_Hoover> "makes you say things about Jesus dying on the cross or whatever" <- um the phrase is "He died for our sins... I see no nails..."
16:58:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I didn't *read* it! And it was multiple lines; you can see them in the video.
16:58:45 <Sgeo> There's a Posable (avatar without an attached real person or bot)
16:58:55 <Sgeo> Called Sista_Clickme
16:59:01 <Sgeo> Clickme is totlally the best name ever
16:59:03 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Clickme.
16:59:11 <itidus21> is the text "He died for our sins... I see no nails..." itself weird?
16:59:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Well yes because of the religious undertones that don't actually make sense.
16:59:31 <Clickme> Sista_ClickMe> Come along Cap, we may be nuns but we still know sexy thighs when we see them ;)
16:59:50 <Clickme> That's what was said when I clicked Sista_ClickMe
17:00:29 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: fwiw i'm not one of them in the sense i haven't used worlds
17:00:42 <itidus21> but i have second-lifed in the past for a short while
17:01:21 <Clickme> a bunch of newbie avatars in a cage
17:01:27 <Clickme> Clicking them causes them to ask things like ASL
17:02:02 <Clickme> I'm going to restart Worlds then go back there
17:02:05 <Clickme> So I can actually copy/paste
17:04:16 <Clickme> As in, someone registerd with that named
17:07:22 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:07:57 <Clickme> Someone mentioned Onion Vortex
17:09:26 <Clickme> The Onion Vortex just put words in my mouth
17:09:38 <Clickme> "Sgeo> you know my nanme? the word of goD..click the orange disc"
17:10:50 <Clickme> Yep, this is totally the place
17:12:55 <Clickme> The list of user-made worlds even calls it ! Weird !
17:13:02 <Clickme> As did the person who pointed it out to mne
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17:13:32 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:13:41 <Clickme> Phantom_Hoover, I'll bring you here
17:13:49 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
17:13:52 -!- ais523 has kicked cheater User terminated!.
17:13:59 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
17:14:17 <ais523> looking at cheater's messages, he doesn't seem to have improved his behaviour at all
17:14:26 <ais523> I told chanserv to kickban him if he turns up again
17:14:58 <elliott> Clickme: Wait, Phantom_Hoover is playing?
17:15:17 <Clickme> But I plan on dragging him here
17:16:59 <Clickme> Asked someone who would be likely to know
17:17:08 <Clickme> "i used virtual box on linux"
17:17:25 <elliott> That's so amazingly not worth it.
17:17:39 <elliott> ais523: Worlds, one of those awful 90s 3D virtual reality games
17:18:22 <Gregor> Which is apparently still around a dozen years later?
17:18:37 <elliott> Gregor: Can you imagine being an employee?
17:18:50 <elliott> Maybe they come to the office every day and pretend it's still the dot-com era.
17:19:11 <elliott> Gregor: Maybe they sit at their desks all day and hold meetings in a virtual office.
17:19:17 <Clickme> you know my name? the word of goD..click the orange disc
17:19:25 <Clickme> elliott, they're a patent troll
17:19:42 <elliott> Clickme: Well, that's just patent trolling!
17:20:15 -!- Clickme has changed nick to Sgeo.
17:20:20 <Sgeo> ..in the name of the father
17:20:49 <Sgeo> ..and the holy spirit..amen....
17:21:00 <Sgeo> ..look at him there..do walk closer and see what you have done..
17:21:33 <Sgeo> ..how the blood from his wounds flow so easily in your mind when you, yes you drive that evil spirit through his side..
17:21:37 <coppro> you are in an irc channel
17:21:44 <Sgeo> ..he died for your Sin.....I see no nails..
17:21:47 <coppro> available exist are north, south, and dennis
17:22:10 <coppro> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
17:22:46 <Sgeo> I seem to be unable to leave this room
17:23:01 <Sgeo> There's one window with INRA out the side on the cross
17:23:34 <Sgeo> Ok, I needed to walk along the wall
17:24:22 <fizzie> When uppercased, Sin is that dude in Final Fantasy X.
17:24:31 <Sgeo> Ok, this place weirds me out
17:25:25 <Sgeo> I seem to be trapped. I'm going to go to hell
17:26:42 <elliott> Sgeo: FINALLY you acknowledge something is weird about it :P
17:27:33 <Sgeo> Host-Jaguar> Ahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!! I guess that's what you get for having a/s/l down as a hate in your info!
17:27:44 <Sgeo> (He's caged in with the ASL asking newbies)
17:29:36 <Sgeo> I've been here before
17:29:43 <Sgeo> There's a naked male av with a sign as a censor
17:33:10 <Sgeo> Hanson world has a Science Room
17:33:47 <Sgeo> Because it's a school
17:34:24 <Sgeo> This totally makes sense to someone somewhere
17:34:44 <fizzie> I understand less than half of what's going on here.
17:34:55 <elliott> that's a lot more than I do
17:35:24 <fizzie> I don't think "less than half" really establishes a lower bound.
17:35:43 <elliott> i didn't understand your line, either :(
17:36:17 <Sgeo> fizzie, http://worlds.com
17:36:19 <Sgeo> If you have Windows
17:36:30 <Sgeo> Although the download might not work
17:36:34 <fizzie> Sgeo: I don't think I dare.
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17:37:52 <Sgeo> Lemme find the download link that the tech support person emailed me
17:38:24 <Sgeo> http://worlds3.worlds.com/WorldsPlayerWin7.exe
17:38:50 <Sgeo> There's a WWF world
17:39:27 <fizzie> I always forget, is that a wrestling thing or a protect-nature thing?
17:40:03 <elliott> both, except the former is WWE now
17:40:08 <elliott> because of the latter, I think
17:40:20 <elliott> thus ends the sum total of my knowledge of WWF/WWE
17:42:05 <fizzie> "I am Prof.Elvis H. AJAH., the Director in charge of Treasury Department, -- You are to reply through this my official alternative email address(info.bceaoobanque@yahoo.co.za) for security reasons." Sounds legit!
17:42:22 <fizzie> I'm sure Prof. Elvis has my security in mind.
17:50:33 <Gregor> I just got an email asking if I wanted a job in the mining industry.
17:54:08 <Sgeo> Worlds apparently saw a surge of people last night
17:54:10 <Sgeo> Due to that video
17:54:33 <itidus21> i just watched the 45min video
17:57:45 <Sgeo> elliott, is TinyXP an option?
17:58:00 <itidus21> oh yeah, you guys aren't running windows xp
17:59:45 <Sgeo> "BowieWorld is a trip"
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18:00:42 <itidus21> worlds has patented proprietry technology? i can imagine the kind of innovation
18:03:19 <kmc> elliott: that sounds actually trivial to me
18:04:46 <itidus21> Sgeo: i wonder how many times navyboy said "I don't" during that video
18:05:57 <itidus21> it's like he lacked any conceptual infrastructure to understand what he was doing
18:10:49 <quintopia> is there a name for keys that are only tapered on two sides?
18:11:28 <itidus21> Sgeo: i really enjoyed that though. i would like to make software like that
18:13:36 <itidus21> im not happy with the idea that anything i saw there was innovative enough for patents though
18:13:56 <itidus21> maybe some optimized algorithm implementations perhaps
18:17:36 <Sgeo> Was not expecting to see a topless woman'
18:20:15 <Sgeo> Found the walking skeletons
18:26:38 <Sgeo> I just walked through the entire alien/skeleton/robot/pegasus adventure
18:32:03 <Sgeo> I more or less knew what to expect
18:32:14 <Sgeo> Stole the avs, so now I can be a skeleton or robot thingy anytime I want
18:32:21 <Sgeo> Didn't think to take the alien avs, but I can
18:33:03 <Sgeo> Skeleton: avatar:dude.0EC__C__C__C__C__T7gltLbMbOaRbUbVaWeXeYIeJeKBbPeGbonesSHHH.rwg
18:33:11 <Sgeo> Robot thingy: avatar:sty.0ET4bfyC_AC_NC_UC0j0C0F0C0Z0PaGdudeSMMM1cG3birdieSMMMBGxIbGbitmanSmmmJb1cG3birdieSmmmKbWbGbitmanSmmmXb1cG3birdieSmmmYbNGxHbGdalek0a1a2a3a4cShhh5D0eD0fD0gD0fShhh6Shhh7D0dD0cD0cD0cShhh1bG3achooSy0ySm0y.rwg
18:33:12 <elliott> call the skeleton Malaria please
18:33:30 <quintopia> we should have a BF busy beaver competition. like, see who can write the program which prints the most characters in a given number of program characters (enough to allow complex programs, not enough to allow programs that would run until the universe ends)
18:33:58 <Taneb> You can run 'till the universe ends in 3 characters
18:34:15 <quintopia> Taneb: busy beaver implies the program must halt
18:34:27 <quintopia> infinite loops would be disqualified
18:34:48 <itidus21> but how can you know if a program will halt?
18:35:41 <kmc> that sounds like an annoying competition
18:36:16 <quintopia> it also sounds like a difficult puzzle
18:36:23 <itidus21> don't listen to me, for i am not a math guy
18:36:26 <elliott> quintopia: That was done with C programs.
18:36:36 <elliott> The entries were beautiful.
18:37:20 <kmc> i like that the busy beaver sequence is not just uncomputable, but it grows faster than any computable sequence
18:37:33 <elliott> quintopia: that's why I pinged shachaf for you
18:37:35 <itidus21> oh.. so the idea is bf programs which print out a set of +-<>[],. ?
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18:43:29 <elliott> *OK, beam.determine_affected_cells time.
18:45:33 <itidus21> so, how does one obtain non-computable data.. does that rely on externalities?
18:45:51 <Taneb> brute force, I believe
18:46:09 <itidus21> ahh.. so brute force isn't counted as computation? :D
18:46:19 <quintopia> kmc: whats the reduction for that proof? i cant find it
18:46:28 <Taneb> Not if it's done by professional computer science people
18:46:35 <quintopia> i know it goes to halting problem, but not how
18:46:53 <Taneb> Rather than computers?
18:47:03 <elliott> If it's computable whether some data is the non-computable data, and the non-computable data is finite, then the data is computable.
18:47:47 <Taneb> You need the professional computer science people to figure out if it halts or not
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18:48:07 <itidus21> i should stop using words i really don't understand
18:48:27 <Taneb> I should stop making things up to sound clever
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18:49:40 <itidus21> theres plenty of words i do understand.
18:50:09 <kmc> quintopia: if you had a computable upper bound for busy beaver, you could solve the halting problem
18:50:18 <kmc> just run the program as long as the bound says
18:50:33 <quintopia> just run a program until your upper bound was reached.if it hasnt halted, it wont
18:50:49 <nortti_> what *bsd os would you recomend for novice bsd user that has used other kind of unixes for 6 years
18:51:37 <itidus21> (looking at wiki) just consult an oracle for the values of S(n)
18:54:45 <kmc> (by "grows faster" we mean that for any computable sequence A, there is some k such that for all n>k, BusyBeaver[n] > A[n])
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18:58:25 <olsner> I wonder if it would be fun to be a firmware engineer
18:58:30 <elliott> I was considering saying "Linux". :(
18:59:19 <olsner> and I can never decide what "system" engineer or developer means
19:00:06 <nortti_> olsner: Linux doesn't seem to be bsd os
19:00:34 <olsner> sometimes it seems to mean putting widgets together into flying gadgets (like, hardware stuff), other times it seems to mean either high-level stuff, very low-level stuff (i.e. systems programming as in C), other times building vast networks of crud screens in Java
19:01:05 <fizzie> I'm under the impression that Free is the most mainstreamy of them.
19:01:34 <elliott> nortti_: You should ask Chris for his opinions.
19:01:37 <elliott> Tell him Elliott sent you.
19:01:47 <olsner> nortti_: sweden is australia, so linux is also bsd
19:02:03 <nortti_> elliott: where can I find him
19:02:39 <elliott> Erm, http://catseye.tc/. But maybe you shouldn't actually do that.
19:02:47 <elliott> Oh, what the hell, go for it.
19:03:14 <olsner> hmm, here was an ad for a "development engineer"
19:05:43 <olsner> other things I have a hard time with: jobs with "senior" in the title
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19:06:18 <olsner> can never decide whether I'd like to call myself senior, or whether it's maybe a bad thing to get involved in
19:06:40 <Taneb> olsner, 17. Worked for me
19:06:44 <shachaf> elliott: The "biggest number" C program?
19:06:56 <olsner> Taneb: thanks, 13 to you
19:07:45 <shachaf> elliott: I don't remember the URL.
19:08:20 <shachaf> elliott: If you really want it I can look it up this evening.
19:08:31 <elliott> Well, quintopia is the one who'd appreciate it.
19:08:40 <shachaf> quintopia: If you really want it I can look it up this evening.
19:09:18 <shachaf> The idea was that you have pseudo-C with an unlimited-size int, and you're supposed to write a function that returns the biggest possible int in under 512 bytes.
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19:15:04 <Sgeo> Worlds is seeing a surge of people
19:15:11 <Sgeo> This is a good thing in my opinion
19:15:28 <Sgeo> And it's all because of that video
19:24:15 * ais523 wonders why, in Java, setAccessible works on things like java.lang.Integer
19:24:33 <ais523> you can apparently modify Integers to be redefinable, then redefine them
19:30:34 <nortti_> another term for byte endiangness
19:31:15 <nortti_> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEX_(computing)
19:34:58 <oerjan> it's because geeks don't need the word for the usual meaning
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19:46:06 <olsner> medical imaging, is that fun? or maybe secure communication systems, which looked more low level
19:47:29 <olsner> surfing around for jobs in the area, thought I might switch if I find something fun
19:50:06 <itidus21> Sgeo: was it due to the 13min video?
19:50:53 <itidus21> i guess that goes without saying..
19:51:21 <kmc> wow a joke about geeks not getting laid
19:51:24 <kmc> how clever
19:51:34 <olsner> kmc: it's funny because geeks don't get laid
19:51:54 <elliott> kmc: stfu i spent like three seconds suppressing the urge to snark on it if i can resist everyone must
19:52:15 <kmc> except that's not actually true
19:52:33 <itidus21> the geeks who don't get laid are the ones who lack skill
19:52:43 <kmc> i guess jokes are founded on lies often
19:52:43 <elliott> thank you for your input itidus21
19:53:01 <elliott> kmc: well, lies are a different thing to stereotypes
19:53:08 <kmc> it's hard to make friends if you are surrounded by people very different from you
19:53:11 <elliott> jokes based on stereotypes are usually not actually funny
19:53:13 <itidus21> skill generates income which attracts women
19:53:13 <kmc> which is why geeks don't get laid in high school
19:53:18 <kmc> fortunately, real life is not high school
19:55:17 <itidus21> ok i like hiding behind the fallacious stereotype though i secretly know geeks get laid as much as non-geeks, and it's other factors entirely which determine laid or not
19:55:42 <Sgeo> itidus21, the yes was to the surge being caused by the video
19:55:44 <kmc> i'm not sure about "as much"
19:56:12 <kmc> but i think how much sex you have as an adult correlates less with how popular you were in high school than people tend to assume
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19:57:09 <Sgeo> I feel like I should not contribute to this conversation.
19:57:43 <kmc> so contribute to the meta-conversation
19:58:17 <elliott> what's the opposite of meta
19:58:39 <kmc> para or ortho, take your pick
19:58:50 <elliott> contribute to the orthoconversation
19:58:57 <elliott> I wonder what the orthoconversation of a regular conversation is
19:59:56 <Sgeo> I never contribute to meta-conversations.
20:00:14 <elliott> the orthometaconversation would be itself
20:00:46 <Sgeo> Perfectly cromulent word.
20:00:52 <Sgeo> Also, that meme is overused.
20:00:57 <olsner> meh, I should just go to bed and read a book
20:01:25 <olsner> but what I really should do though is locate all versions of my CV and figure out which one is the latest
20:01:29 <itidus21> ok, in a metaconversational sense, it seems my style makes it more necessary to indicate when a post is made in response to me with my nick
20:02:03 <itidus21> kmc's nick was also referenced several times before mine
20:02:48 <itidus21> it's probably best if i stay out of the metaconversation!
20:03:17 <olsner> "advanced object oriented Javascript with server communication" and "Good knowledge of Java" doesn't bode well, perhaps strike that one
20:09:10 <Sgeo> A website powered by Java on the backend could reasonably require knowledge of both
20:14:14 <ais523> Sgeo: but that would imply that the job was highly enterprisey
20:14:19 <ais523> so it's probably still a bad sign
20:14:34 <ais523> Java on webservers is on the short list of things that let you know you should run away
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20:19:14 <kmc> yeah, people will assume you worked in an EnterpriseJavaBeanFrameworkSolutionFactory
20:20:33 <oerjan> the beans being soy and lent
20:20:40 <fizzie> public String getHelpImTrappedInTheJavaBeanFactory();
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23:00:20 <ion> I think i’ve seen some HD clips of ES and i don’t remember thinking they look worse than the standard stuff.
23:00:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, those HD clips are prerendered and possibly are being held back as a future premium thing.
23:01:41 <elliott> ion: btw watch NEQOXEC on CAO when it's on.
23:09:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Calculating your weed schedule?
23:10:39 <elliott> Is that 10 weeds every hour?
23:10:45 <elliott> Your garden will be awful.
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23:32:58 -!- monqy has joined.
23:33:44 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:35:31 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages?
23:38:33 <elliott> monqy: it's ok if you have +23 cpa and berk trj
23:39:54 <elliott> did i ask you if you know where fire storm targetting is handled
23:40:21 <elliott> do you know where fire storm targetting is handled
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23:41:36 <elliott> i might just ask elliptic since he seems to be responsible for new_squarelos and it's a Squarelos Problem
23:47:38 <elliott> and got a summoning rod from xom
23:47:53 <elliott> by "from xom" i mean xom gave a scroll of acq which gave the rod
23:47:59 <elliott> and now it's like +ridiculous
23:48:21 <monqy> rods rods rods is 100% muck
23:48:45 <elliott> im not the one who said it was fake musu first!
23:48:48 <elliott> you had to ~see it happen~
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00:10:40 <elliott> monqy: did i miss anything
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01:35:33 <elliott> monqy: guess what's about to get squarelos
01:37:17 <elliott> monqy: i suggest you play some AKs afterwards because I'm pretty sure I ~op'd~ corrupt
01:37:45 <monqy> it can't be more op than what tornado used to be
01:38:15 <monqy> level 8, near full los, no timeout, long duration, huge ac-ignoring damage per turn
01:38:50 <monqy> and it did more damage if you were hasted
01:39:00 <elliott> how did anyone design that
01:39:12 <monqy> most of it was fixed before the release
01:39:18 <monqy> then the rest of it was fixed later
01:41:31 <elliott> "eagerly awaiting shaming"
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01:52:49 <elliott> monqy: im actualyl dying of the sham.
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02:09:23 <elliott> monqy: It bothers me how we refer to a line of sight as having a shape.
02:09:31 <elliott> Is there better Crawl terminology for that?
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02:11:03 <itidus21> is the idea that line of site is not directional?
02:11:27 <ais523> itidus21: the idea is that computer-game worlds have weird topology
02:11:35 <ais523> and thus it's awkward to define what exactly a circle should be
02:12:05 * itidus21 becomes self concious of using the words "the idea"
02:12:08 <quintopia> honestly, a square makes the most sense when diagonal motion is possible. circles are just prettier
02:12:23 <monqy> circles are not prettier !!!
02:12:38 <itidus21> he could just use an asterisk shape
02:12:44 <elliott> quintopia: have you seen approximated circles
02:12:52 <itidus21> because whoever makes these decisions is probably a male :P
02:12:55 <elliott> it doesn't matter what's pretty
02:12:57 <elliott> because it messes with gameplay
02:13:11 <elliott> (ask any experienced player, if you don't believe me)
02:13:20 <monqy> next on the "stupid quasieuclidean things messing with gameplay" list: targeting
02:13:23 <elliott> things like "it's better to approach diagonally or horizontally because the enemy will see you less"
02:13:30 <monqy> not that i know how to fix it !
02:13:36 <elliott> monqy: "Make the line-of-sight square" "Make line-of-sight square"
02:13:39 <elliott> which of these is more correct :(
02:13:59 <itidus21> yahoo is nearly as bad as that worlds video
02:14:07 <itidus21> demonpoweredinternet left the room
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02:14:22 <monqy> also next on that list: light bending around walls funny
02:14:33 <itidus21> thejock_of_torment left the room
02:14:51 <itidus21> ***********s_smell_worse_than_my_shit left the room
02:15:12 <itidus21> it's not important what that is
02:15:22 <monqy> is there a word worse than shit :o
02:15:26 <monqy> does such a word exist :o
02:15:30 <monqy> please tell me what it is :o
02:16:11 <quintopia> one way to make true euclidean geometry works is to make diagonal moves take sqrt(2) times the amount of time orthogonal moves take (aka, 1 turn will not always be 1 time step)
02:16:22 <monqy> quintopia: that wouldn't work
02:16:36 <elliott> monqy: "The log entries for the commits used follow:" or "The log entries for the commits used follows:"
02:16:45 <elliott> can you give a serious answer to my first question
02:16:47 <elliott> that is one of the options I gave
02:16:56 <monqy> elliott: no because i don't have an opinion on it
02:17:36 <monqy> quintopia: since everything's all discretized you still don't get single minimal paths
02:17:48 <monqy> quintopia: that throws a wrench into calling it actually euclidean, no ?
02:17:52 <itidus21> what are the units of space called in crawl? :D
02:17:59 <itidus21> the so called tiles or squares or cells
02:18:00 <monqy> itidus21: squares, tiles, you name it !
02:18:12 <elliott> The log entries for the commits used follow (in chronological order):
02:18:18 <elliott> is there a less awkward way to write this
02:18:19 <quintopia> monqy: its true euclidean where you're not allowed to move in z straight line. :P
02:18:20 <elliott> e.g. avoiding the parenthical
02:18:38 <monqy> quintopia: hardly true euclidean !
02:19:07 <monqy> The log entries for the commits used follow in chronological order
02:19:10 <quintopia> monqy: the space is euclidean, you just can't take advantage of the fact!
02:19:17 <monqy> quintopia: im weeping
02:19:43 <itidus21> monqy: the fact that i knew what they were shows that math has really let this area of naming down
02:19:44 <quintopia> i agree with monqy. just drop the parens
02:20:06 <elliott> it seems kinda weird with the parenthical though
02:20:11 <elliott> like it's obvious it's in chronological order!
02:20:25 <ais523> imagine how confusing a roguelike would be if diagonals were root-2 slower than orthogonals
02:20:35 <elliott> quintopia: it's not that obvious because it's in a git log view
02:21:02 <monqy> ais523: I particularly like the arguments that it's more intuitive that way
02:21:15 <itidus21> well one approach would be to overlay a real disc on top of the squares and make a rule about how much % of the square has to be covered before it is part of the disc
02:21:18 <elliott> The (chronologically-ordered) log entries for the non-merge commits
02:21:18 <elliott> unique to that branch follow:
02:21:20 <ais523> monqy: what, root2los?
02:21:29 <quintopia> ais523: exactly. now add the ability to move between two points alonga straight euclidean line (without doing any actions along the way)
02:21:32 <monqy> ais523: root2 diagonal movement
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02:22:02 <ais523> monqy: haha, that's not intuitive at all
02:22:21 <monqy> unless I'm misremembering, not everyone agrees!
02:22:57 <elliott> "Make the line-of-sight square."
02:23:02 <elliott> make this commit message not a contradiction in terms
02:23:31 <elliott> quintopia: you can view beyond that
02:23:34 <monqy> "Implement squarelos" "Import new_squarelos"
02:23:36 <elliott> (also, when you say "A record of X follows:" or similar, do you use a colon, or a full stop?)
02:23:48 <monqy> where squarelos and new_squarelos are technical terms
02:23:51 <elliott> monqy: I mention new_squarelos in the commit message, but it is simply too powerful a word to put in the summary line!
02:24:07 <elliott> elliptic used "Square LOS." but that's not even a sentence!
02:24:18 <quintopia> elliott: how can you view beyons that? i thought it was all fog-of-war beyond?
02:24:26 <elliott> quintopia: you can remember what you saw
02:24:36 <elliott> also, LOS affects things like targetting too
02:24:38 <quintopia> elliott: remembering is not seeing
02:24:39 <elliott> so it's not just visibility
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02:27:34 <elliott> what happens when you stand directly north-west of a single-square wall with circlelos
02:27:57 <elliott> monqy: aha, that one has official precedent
02:27:58 <elliott> ./hints.cc: "accidentally entering into its field of view when using "
02:28:00 <monqy> the same thing that happens when you stand directly north-west of a single-square wall in squarelos, no?
02:28:29 <elliott> ostr << "You can easily mark its square as dangerous to avoid "
02:28:29 <elliott> "accidentally entering into its field of view when using "
02:28:29 <elliott> "auto-explore or auto-travel. To do so, enter targeting "
02:28:33 <elliott> monqy: right, just checking
02:29:00 <elliott> and when you walk slightly away from that wall? you still get a few dots south-east of you invisible but everything around them visible, right?
02:29:05 <elliott> I'm just checking that I haven't introduced any nastiness
02:29:12 <elliott> (because it's damn ugly in tiles)
02:29:16 <elliott> (of course everything is but)
02:30:15 <elliott> i tested in tiles because i had to
02:31:35 <elliott> Make the field of view square.
02:31:38 <elliott> is this an acceptable commit message
02:31:42 <elliott> it feels weird not mentioning los
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02:32:47 <monqy> you're worrying too much about your commit messsag
02:33:50 <elliott> i must get it right the first time!!!
02:34:10 <elliott> thank you github for making me stare at "Hardcore Forking Action" once again to get this done
02:34:10 <itidus21> someone might download it on the basis of the commit message
02:34:24 <monqy> what is hardcore forking action
02:35:29 <elliott> We're forking a repository just for you. It should only take a few seconds. Refresh at will
02:35:35 <elliott> the awful message github displays when you fork a repository
02:35:46 <quintopia> "make the field of view square (squarelos, bitches!)
02:36:01 <elliott> quintopia: no if i wrote that i'd have to kill myself and burn my corpse
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02:36:39 <quintopia> which god are you sac'ing your corpse to
02:37:12 <elliott> they dont burn they just disappear in flames
02:37:25 <HackEgo> BlueProtoman: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:37:43 <monqy> you're welcome anyway
02:37:52 <elliott> time for the second-level welcome
02:37:53 <monqy> friendly is not just for newcomers
02:37:59 <HackEgo> BLUEPROTOMAN: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
02:38:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wElCoMe: not found
02:38:15 <elliott> you're so welcome that we forgot you were here
02:38:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wElCoMe: not found
02:38:50 <BlueProtoman> Still, that's the nicest I've ever seen anyone on IRC. Won't lie.
02:39:06 <BlueProtoman> Nicest welcome wagon, rather. Hell, this is the only welcome wagon I've seen.
02:39:14 <elliott> i'm trying to think of how to be amusingly horrible in response that doesn't cross the line into being actually horrible
02:40:11 <BlueProtoman> Question. I'm trying to do a Brainfuck interpreter in C++. I can successfully check to see whether the braces [] are valid, and I record their positions in a vector, too. Problem is, now I'm not sure how to use this vector to skip the instruction pointer past a ] if the value at the current cell is 0.
02:41:07 <BlueProtoman> I'm using a stack to see whether the braces are valid or not.
02:41:37 <BlueProtoman> Then again, I supposed I could somehow use a stack of a pair<int, int>...
02:42:29 <quintopia> hell, you can even just do a linear search for the matching brace every time you must jump between them :P
02:42:49 <BlueProtoman> Here's how I check for brace validity. I just create a stack<int> that records the position of each brace, opening or closing. If the stack underflows or ends up not empty at the end of the check, we don't run the program.
02:43:14 <BlueProtoman> I also want to remove non-BF characters with a regex, but this is more important.
02:43:54 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:44:16 <quintopia> one easy thing to do is replace the braces with the location of the other brace in your actual program represtation
02:44:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: <command>: not found
02:44:46 <quintopia> so your have a list of +-><., or number
02:45:10 <quintopia> + means opening brace, negative means closing brace
02:45:41 <quintopia> do brace operation, jump to magnitude of number when necessary
02:45:54 <quintopia> its a list now not a string remember
02:46:50 <quintopia> and you do the replacement of braces with numbers when your validator pops the bracepair
02:48:12 <quintopia> (possible limitation: program length will be limited to max_int of the data type you use for numbers
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02:48:25 <quintopia> but this is long enough for all real programs)
02:49:44 <BlueProtoman> But don't I need the ability to reference entries by index? Lists don't provide that.
02:50:09 <BlueProtoman> And I want to generalize this to other Brainfuck derivatives, some of which use numbers.
02:51:20 <monqy> could actually parse to an actually AST and then everything will be fine & dandy ,right?
02:52:41 <quintopia> well, array. i meant list in the abstract, not a particular implementation
02:53:23 <quintopia> but yeah, if you want to parse shit like bfjoust, why not parse to an AST
02:54:16 <quintopia> a harder but more general technique
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02:55:23 <quintopia> here's another system: keep a dictionary of left/right braces. when you come to a left brace, index to dictionary key. when you come to a right brace, index it by value.
02:55:26 <elliott> it's less scary than it sounds
02:55:34 <elliott> you just make data types to represent each type of syntax in the language
02:57:32 <BlueProtoman> elliott: French to me. I'm gonna do compilers in college, but right now...
02:58:02 <BlueProtoman> quintopia: Oooh, that works, too. Thanks for the tip!
02:58:25 <elliott> BlueProtoman: Here's my preferred scheme for bracket-matching:
02:58:44 <elliott> BlueProtoman: You have an array, indexed by source position.
02:58:50 <elliott> In array[position_of_left_brace], you store position_of_right_brace.
02:58:59 <elliott> In array[position_of_right_brace], you store position_of_left_brace.
02:59:01 <elliott> Then jumping is really easy.
02:59:08 <elliott> Note: an associative map (like std::map) is better than an array here.
02:59:49 <BlueProtoman> Or an unordered_map, maybe? Those have quicker lookup times, I think.
03:00:39 <quintopia> that basically sounds like what i said above, but with twice as many pairs
03:00:43 <elliott> Sure, whatever. I don't do implementation details :)
03:00:53 <elliott> quintopia: Yours is more complicated :p
03:01:18 <quintopia> elliott: the things i do for memory efficiency :P
03:01:23 <elliott> monqy: I don't like Light folks' anti-nerfing sentiment. :(
03:01:45 <monqy> elliott: come to monqys-crawl !!! in the future
03:09:05 <kmc> the distant future, the year 2000
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04:00:13 <HackEgo> Guest65643: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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04:43:36 <shachaf> Useful tool: https://github.com/timmaxw/netrecord
04:44:08 <elliott> shachaf: You should play Crawl Light.
04:44:30 <shachaf> elliott: help what's crawlight????????
04:44:43 <shachaf> qne: what's squarelos?????
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05:56:00 <bin_bash> I want to use brainfuck to build an IRC bot.
05:58:00 <HackEgo> bin_bash: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:58:04 <elliott> you'll need an interface to connect it to the network
05:58:22 <bin_bash> It's been done? really?. well shit.
05:58:34 <elliott> The only one I've seen just joined and said something, then pinged out a bit later.
06:02:44 <fizzie> 2012-04-06 12:33:29 <lambdabot> I'm written in brainfuck
06:02:46 <fizzie> (But then, it was a lie.)
06:03:12 <fizzie> fungot: Are *you* written in brainfuck?
06:03:13 <fungot> fizzie: it's probably intentionally inaccessible to the language construct, before they used computers. when i was using symbols, there's no way you can just push enter again
06:03:42 <fizzie> I suppose that's a "maybe".
06:03:48 <elliott> @ask Patashu How was it that brogue's stairs were scummable, again? There's talk of doing something similar (monsters following you through them) for Crawl Light.
06:04:54 <shachaf> elliott: You never answore my question.
06:05:28 <elliott> You asked it with too many question marks.
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06:16:51 <shachaf> elliott: What's Crawl Light?
06:17:27 <elliott> A fork of Crawl that removes a lot of pointless tedium (hunger, curses, identification), shortens the game, and is starting to add new stuff; e.g. it has a hard mode.
06:17:31 <elliott> Also it has squarelos now.
06:19:30 <elliott> You know how the field of view is a badly-approximated circle in Crawl?
06:19:37 <elliott> Which fixes a bunch of gameplay bugs.
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07:00:41 <lambdabot> Patashu: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:01:09 <Patashu> http://brogue.wikia.com/wiki/Stairdancing this should fully explain it
07:01:28 <Patashu> basically, in brogue monsters follow you when you take stairs if they were hunting you actively when you took it
07:01:35 <Patashu> X turns pass and then they come up the stairs
07:01:44 <Patashu> where X = how long it takes them to get there
07:01:53 <elliott> yes, i also understand this :P
07:02:52 <elliott> "If all these are satisfied, the game calculates how long it would take the monster to walk to where you were (not to the stairs, to where you were)"
07:03:14 <Patashu> the thing about brogue staircases is
07:03:18 <Patashu> taking the staircase is an instant action
07:03:26 <Patashu> if you're next to a staircase you can will yourself to be next to it on the other level
07:03:35 <elliott> does that mean you can go up
07:03:58 <Patashu> the fun thing you can exploit about this is
07:03:58 <elliott> do those two things in combination fix the scumming? :P
07:04:02 <Patashu> say you and a monster are next to the stairs
07:04:11 <Patashu> repeat as long as you like
07:04:15 <Patashu> it's like crawl's doordancing but with stairs
07:04:27 <elliott> yeah, none of that will apply to Light
07:04:36 <elliott> you should play Light!!! it has squarelos now
07:05:19 <Patashu> now I'll have to unlearn my habit of moving diagonally towards things
07:05:36 <elliott> monqy: do even you do that
07:05:38 <Patashu> another fun thing about brogue
07:05:44 <Patashu> monsters are slightly less likely to wake up approaching them diagonally
07:05:49 <Patashu> but only if they're land based
07:05:57 <shachaf> You never told me what squarelos were.
07:06:06 <monqy> Patashu: did you know: light has sidestepping
07:06:20 <monqy> Patashu: like in doomrl
07:06:26 <Patashu> shachaf: because it can't be both a square and a circle at once
07:06:30 <Patashu> monqy: I never mastered sidestepping in doomrl
07:06:30 <elliott> Patashu: https://github.com/dtsund/crawl-light/commit/4978bd01902f948a5bdbc00d48539a2d912523a7 the biggest commit
07:07:32 <shachaf> It should be a circle on even turns and a square on odd turns.
07:07:35 <Patashu> this is my favourite sentence of the day
07:08:02 <Patashu> ' Replace PI with 3 for Tornado rotation purposes.'
07:08:50 <shachaf> Remember when the universe explodes at the end of Riven?
07:09:00 <elliott> + // const int corrupt_perc_chance =
07:09:00 <elliott> + // idistance * idistance <= ground_zero_radius2 ? 100 :
07:09:04 <elliott> + // std::max(1, 100 - (idistance * idistance - ground_zero_radius2) * 70 / 42);
07:09:06 <elliott> nice forgetting-to-coment-out, elliott
07:09:34 <elliott> Patashu: anyway telnet light.bitprayer.com
07:10:09 <monqy> nice try, shachaf !
07:11:49 <elliott> Patashu: (#crawllight does not talk much)
07:12:52 <elliott> Patashu: btw you should try hard mode
07:12:58 <elliott> ask monqy for details on hard mde
07:13:20 <shachaf> Is #CrawlLight a type of beer?
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07:23:52 <elliott> Sgeo: You should play Crawl Light! IT HAS SQUARELOS NOW. THANKS TO ME.
07:23:58 <fungot> elliott: (...) and generate all posible combinations of the three
07:24:29 <Sgeo> And you were there, and you were there, and you were there
07:25:00 <shachaf> elliott: Should I play Crawl Light?
07:25:24 <shachaf> 00:25 <shachaf> !talk crawl
07:25:24 <shachaf> 00:25 <sourbot_> crawl instead! =D =D =D =D =D =D =D =D =D =D good for washing her mother father’s sister doesn't work in multiple .muttrcs
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08:30:26 <Sgeo> I'm a little butterfly!
08:34:23 <qfr> Noo, that transcription is wrong
08:35:07 <qfr> It's [bVt@flaI]!
08:35:33 <monqy> i don't like that transcription
08:36:01 <shachaf> monqy: Can you transcribe it for us?
08:36:22 <monqy> it's mostly that @ that i don't like
08:37:46 <shachaf> @tell elliott <monqy> it's mostly that @ that i don't like
08:38:48 <shachaf> (don't worry monqy I'm a big monqyfan!)
08:40:52 <Sgeo> Is it bad that the first I heard of Yahoo! Axis is due to the private key?
08:41:58 <shachaf> I think it just came out yesterday or something.
08:42:39 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/u26pv/yahoo_included_their_cert_private_key_inside_the/
08:42:52 <qfr> Sgeo I saw
08:43:04 <qfr> https://p.twimg.com/AtoL12ICIAEwTbz.jpg:large
08:43:30 <qfr> Ah, it's linked there
09:01:39 <ais523> Sgeo: I'd heard of Yahoo! Axis before, but they only announced it today, IIRC
09:02:01 <ais523> but a mistake as obvious as that is likely to be found quickly
09:02:13 <ais523> who puts their private key in a source tarball anyway?
09:02:22 <Madoka-Kaname> ais523, I think they meant for people to use it...
09:02:58 <ais523> a public private key is completely useless :)
09:03:23 <Sgeo> I was assuming that maybe someone was a bit unsure of how Chrome extensions work?
09:03:32 <Sgeo> And didn't know that much about cryptography?
09:03:41 <Madoka-Kaname> I think they meant for the developers to use it, and, failed to think things through, to be honest.
09:03:45 <ais523> it'd have to be both, I think
09:03:47 <Sgeo> Thought that in order to sign it, they needed the key in there?
09:04:11 <kmc> if only it said "PRIVATE KEY" in big letters
09:04:31 <ais523> well, it makes some sort of sense to have the key with the rest of the source on their dev machines, because it's part of what you need to actually build and release the extension
09:04:53 <ais523> but it doesn't make sense to make it part of the source you hand out (as part of the extension, in this case, because Chrome extensions are delivered in source form)
09:05:53 <ais523> even the GPLv3's anti-tivoisation stuff doesn't require you to provide /your/ key, just if a key's required, provide a mechanism via which the user can use theirs, or one you provide for them
09:06:34 <Madoka-Kaname> I doubt Chrome's extension system is good enough for a public testing key though.
09:06:55 <pikhq_> Oh my shiiiit, they did *what*.
09:07:05 <pikhq_> They actually released their private key.
09:07:09 <Madoka-Kaname> ais523, if that's the case, there's a different question.
09:07:22 <Madoka-Kaname> Why do the developers have direct access to the public key?
09:07:39 <ais523> pikhq_: I assume a company as big as Yahoo! have more than one private key
09:07:55 <pikhq_> ais523: Well, true, but *any* private key leaking is moronic.
09:08:01 <ais523> but still, a valid private key for Yahoo! is the sort of thing that criminals would find quite valuable
09:08:59 <ais523> well, the key's got to be made out to Yahoo!, right?
09:10:14 <Madoka-Kaname> If devs really had it, that's possibly >10-20 people who can leak/do nasty things with it
09:10:46 <ais523> it's of a similar level of chaos to being able to reliably forge Bill Gates' handwritten signature, in such a way that people would believe it was him
09:11:03 <ais523> well, or the equivalent for the CEO of Yahoo!, at least
09:11:08 <ais523> whoever the new one is, or haven't they appointed one yet?
09:11:14 <pikhq_> This also suggests somewhat poor key protocol.
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09:11:56 <pikhq_> Meaning that I bet a lot of people are going to be trying shit on Yahoo.
09:12:02 <Sgeo> What would be the normal thing to do, exactly?
09:12:39 <Madoka-Kaname> (Sysadmins could easily snatch the key, I think, even with lots of precautions)
09:12:40 <Sgeo> Rather than give devs the key? Have another in-house key?
09:12:55 <Sgeo> Madoka-Kaname, I mean, for devs to test
09:12:56 <Madoka-Kaname> Giving devs the production key is a horrible idea.
09:13:11 <pikhq_> Giving devs a test key is trivial.
09:13:18 <Patashu> Wouldn't the private key be physically separated from everything else
09:13:19 <pikhq_> You, well, just make one up.
09:13:21 <Patashu> Except when needed to publish
09:13:22 <Madoka-Kaname> The proper solution is to have a test mode so you don't need things signed.
09:13:23 <pikhq_> Perhaps also a testing CA.
09:13:32 <pikhq_> Patashu: In a sane environment? Yes.
09:13:37 <kmc> aiui for chrome you generate a new keypair for every extension
09:13:43 <kmc> so this is hardly like leaking the yahoo master key
09:13:44 <pikhq_> Madoka-Kaname: I'm assuming for some reason you can't just do that.
09:13:46 <kmc> but still a major fuckup
09:14:08 <pikhq_> In which case, you make a test CA and test certs off that.
09:14:26 <pikhq_> It's really not that hard. I've got the tools for it installed right now.
09:14:31 <pikhq_> (they come with OpenSSL)
09:14:58 <ais523> Madoka-Kaname: you /can/, not via the revocation method, but all the browser manufacturers will go remove the CA from their list of root keys
09:15:04 <pikhq_> How you "revoke" a CA is convincing people to remove it from the list of approved keys.
09:15:07 <ais523> it's already happened to DigiNotar
09:15:13 <pikhq_> And a leak of a CA key makes that happen *quick*.
09:15:33 <pikhq_> And usually they also remove all other keys you've ever had, because you're bad at this.
09:16:17 <ais523> don't have to convince the average user, they put it in the browser updates and push it out as security updates
09:16:21 <ais523> average user will normally apply /those/
09:16:24 <pikhq_> Don't have to, it's a "screaming emergency" security patch. Anymore, it'll happen unless it's some guy using Windows 95 on a computer bought in 1995.
09:16:52 <pikhq_> And that guy has a computer where every single binary is infected with a virus, so who cares?
09:17:27 <ais523> and it's probably running, umm, IE4?
09:17:45 <ais523> actually, I wonder how easily exploitable IE4 on Win95 is nowadays from random attacks in the wild
09:17:51 <ais523> you'd wonder if they'd died out due to a lack of hosts
09:18:05 <ais523> or whether there's still one hugely optimistic win95 virus somewhere still trying to spread
09:18:17 <pikhq_> Actually, could be running IE5.5.
09:18:51 <Madoka-Kaname> ais523, win95 viruses can't even infect modern Windows, right?
09:19:13 <pikhq_> In principle you could make a virus with multiple attack vectors...
09:19:18 * Sgeo watches mbam scan itself
09:19:23 <pikhq_> But it's highly unlikely anyone bothered trying.
09:19:38 <Sgeo> I want to see a WINE-aware virus
09:19:44 <ais523> Madoka-Kaname: in theory they could, if the backwards-compatibility is good enough; but the attack vectors they user are pretty locked down
09:19:56 <Madoka-Kaname> Sgeo, that is just a Linux virus in a PE executable.
09:19:59 <ais523> Madoka-Kaname: Linux/Windows has been done as proof of concept, but it didn't get into the wild
09:20:23 <pikhq_> The architecture of Win9x is so damned *different* from WinNT that most of the more clever viruses would hard-core break.
09:20:42 <pikhq_> And the less clever ones would get permission errors on WinNT.
09:21:09 <pikhq_> Well, unless you run as admin.
09:21:18 <pikhq_> Madoka-Kaname: Only by obscurity.
09:21:31 <pikhq_> DOS is also pretty secure by that notion.
09:21:59 <monqy> a slice of bread "the most secure computing platform"
09:22:13 <ais523> hmm, /can/ Wine executables call Linux syscalls?
09:22:27 <ais523> I'd sort-of expect Wine to translate them into somethinge lse
09:22:29 <Sgeo> Stanislav recently called a brick "Lisp-like" by some measures
09:22:35 <Sgeo> I think he was making fun of something
09:22:39 <pikhq_> ais523: Wine isn't that extensive.
09:22:49 <pikhq_> ais523: It's actually most akin to Microcosm in structure.
09:22:49 <Madoka-Kaname> ais523, I recall reading that WINE binaries can use Linux syscalls.
09:23:09 <Sgeo> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=405
09:23:18 <Madoka-Kaname> Checks if Linux syscalls work, and, if they do, load libc.so, etc, and follow a slightly different codepath.
09:23:22 <pikhq_> It's a PE loader and dynamic linker, with a set of libraries, with some hacks so *those* libraries can link against Linux libraries.
09:24:01 <pikhq_> (actually, I think it's actually a set of hacks so some of its libraries are straight-up provided by .so files. But anyways.)
09:24:36 <pikhq_> Oh, yeah, and for maximum compatibility, part of DOS and a Win16 environment (which manages to work on x86-64).
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09:24:58 <ais523_> in particular, I was wondering if Windows used the interrupt in question for something else, in which case it would have to
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09:25:09 <ais523> <ais523_> in particular, I was wondering if Windows used the interrupt in question for something else, in which case it would have to
09:26:10 <pikhq_> Actually, Windows has the interesting property that the system calls are *not* part of the userspace API.
09:26:32 <pikhq_> The interrupts used to get into kernel space are known to change with individual *patches* sometimes.
09:26:57 <pikhq_> So, the only interrupts used by Windows are DOS interrupts, and those only for Win16.
09:27:16 <pikhq_> And those don't interact too well with Win16 anyways.
09:27:24 <pikhq_> Well, not all of them.
09:27:59 <pikhq_> Though, WINE does implement them even on x86 systems *without* the virtualized real mode...
09:28:06 <pikhq_> Wonder how it does that, actually.
09:28:27 <pikhq_> Oh, wait, right. No, it probably doesn't.
09:28:58 <pikhq_> Win16 programs need to work in protected mode, because configurations of Win2.0 or Win3.x would actually do that.
09:29:46 <ais523> win3.1 ran in protected mode by default, if it existed on your processor
09:30:21 <pikhq_> Yeah. 16-bit protected mode is, nevertheless, protected mode.
09:30:48 <pikhq_> So, I guess anything using DOS interrupts on Win16 would just break horribly on popular configurations of it.
09:34:02 <ais523> well, for DOS programs, it dropped into real mode temporarily to run them
09:34:22 <ais523> it had a secondary alt-tab handler for that case so you could switch away from them
09:34:39 <pikhq_> I suppose on 286 protected mode it would have.
09:35:10 <fizzie> ais523: As far as I know, 3.1 no longer ran on real mode at all; that's why it required at least a 286. (Though it had a separate "386 enhanced" mode.)
09:35:20 <pikhq_> On 386 protected mode it would preëmptively multitask a bunch of virtual DOS machines.
09:35:34 <Sgeo> "As of August 2011, even the newest x86 CPUs (including x86-64 CPUs) start in real mode at power-on and can run software written for almost any previous chip (with a few exceptions due to slight instruction set differences)."
09:36:19 <pikhq_> Sgeo: I think the main thing is the absolute latest Intel chips *finally* stopped disabling A20.
09:36:20 * ais523 notes that both preëmptive and coöperative have a diaeresis
09:36:50 <ais523> aren't they planning to reuse the opcodes for the BCD stuff for something else
09:36:51 <Sgeo> I don't no much about this stuff
09:37:02 <fizzie> Sgeo: Also, you can't do the virtual-8086 mode while in the 64-bit "long mode", i.e. when running a 64-bit OS.
09:37:08 <ais523> Sgeo: one of the address lines, it was repurposed for something dubious on the basis that nothing had that much memory anyway and they needed a pin
09:37:19 <pikhq_> With 286-and-up based IBM PCs, the 20th address line was disabled by default.
09:37:32 <pikhq_> Actually, 21st, sorry.
09:38:08 <pikhq_> This was to emulate the wrapping behavior of earlier Intel CPUs, which only had 20 address lines.
09:38:19 <fizzie> ais523: IIRC, they repurposed a pin from the keyboard controller to enable/disable it; it was disabled for backwards compatibility reasons, so that the one-megabit wrapping would work.
09:38:29 <Sgeo> I was more shocked at the still supporting real mode thing
09:38:41 <pikhq_> The upshot of which is that you had ~1M of *address* space, but only 640k of actual memory max.
09:38:43 <ais523> right, the keyboard controller was repurposed for several dubious things, like rebooting
09:38:50 <fizzie> It's not that they'd have used the address bus pin for anything dubious.
09:38:52 <Sgeo> Was a way to go protected -> real ever introduced?
09:38:53 <ais523> although people later decided that triple-faulting was easier
09:39:01 <ais523> Sgeo: yep, that's what the keyboard controller reboot was for
09:39:12 <pikhq_> Before that you needed keyboard controller reboot.
09:39:14 <ais523> I think they added an official method eventually
09:39:26 <ais523> was it triple-faulting, or something else?
09:39:38 <pikhq_> Something else, I don't recall what it was off the top of my head.
09:39:54 <pikhq_> It was essential to making DPMI reasonable, though.
09:40:01 <ais523> (triple-faulting: when you have an exception in the exception handler /for/ the exception handler)
09:40:32 <ais523> IIRC, both Linux and Windows still try the keyboard handler as the final fallback for when they can't find any other way to reboot a machine
09:40:54 <pikhq_> I'm pretty sure Linux still has intentional-triple-fault somewhere.
09:41:24 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Anyways, the reason why x86 CPUs still support real mode is pretty simple...
09:41:55 <ais523> pikhq_: Linux's reboot method is actually currently identical to Windows'
09:42:15 <ais523> they reverse-engineered Windows' methods in the end, rather than trying to follow standards, on the basis that all the hardware manufacturers were only testing with Windows
09:42:17 <pikhq_> Sgeo: A CPU, when it starts, needs to start executing at a known address, so the startup code will run, right?
09:42:36 <pikhq_> Sgeo: So, waaaay back in 8086, they set that up. So, the BIOS was stuck there.
09:43:03 <Madoka-Kaname> pikhq_, Linux, IIRC, used an intentional triple fault for rebooting.
09:43:46 <pikhq_> Sgeo: And this has never changed, because you would essentially end up creating a CPU with an utterly incompatible boot scheme.
09:44:00 <pikhq_> And, for obvious reasons, the BIOS expected to run in real mode.
09:44:17 <pikhq_> So, all x86 CPUs support real mode to some extent.
09:44:29 <pikhq_> It gets better: EFI systems still start this way, too.
09:44:48 <fizzie> arch/x86/kernel/reboot.c: http://p.zem.fi/st2n
09:44:51 <Sgeo> Is it because the CPU expects it?
09:45:11 <fizzie> There's an extra triple-fault fallback at the end.
09:45:12 <pikhq_> Sgeo: No, it's because you don't want to make EFI-only CPUs.
09:45:16 <Sgeo> Even with a ... I don't know much about EFI other than being an alternative to BIOS
09:45:18 <pikhq_> ais523: I'm pretty sure Windows actually complies with standards.
09:45:43 <pikhq_> ais523: It's just that merely working with something that complies with standards doesn't mean much. :)
09:45:58 <pikhq_> Sgeo: EFI is essentially *just* different startup code.
09:46:29 <pikhq_> Instead of the CPU starting at 0x9000 (was that where it starts? I don't even remember) and running the BIOS, it starts at 0x9000 and runs the EFI firmware.
09:46:46 <Sgeo> Different enough that the OS needs to expect it?
09:47:09 <pikhq_> Well, *yes*, it presents a somewhat different API.
09:47:10 <Madoka-Kaname> fizzie, what does it mean that I find funny that after the normal shutdown sequence, Linux acts kinda like a human operator kicking on a machine going "Hello?? Why arn't you working?"
09:47:29 <Sgeo> Madoka-Kaname, hm?
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09:47:53 <ais523_> <ais523> that's still following standards, but it's pointless, but some real-life hardware actually relies on it doing that
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09:48:19 <pikhq_> ais523: What I'm trying to say is, it's not *Windows* fault at all.
09:48:34 <ais523> it's the hardware manufacturer's fault
09:48:36 <ais523> for only testing with it
09:48:39 <pikhq_> They have perfectly reasonable behavior, the rest of the world is just insane.
09:48:43 <ais523> it's like screenscraping
09:48:56 <ais523> you can't really blame the website when it stops working
09:49:27 <fizzie> pikhq_: "The reset vector for the 80386DX and later x86 processors is 0xFFFF0, although the value of the CS register at reset is 0xF000 and the value of the IP register at reset is 0xFFF0. In actuality, current x86 processors fetch from the physical address 0xFFFFFFF0. This is due to a hidden base address portion of the CS register in real mode which defaults to 0xFFFF0000 after reset."
09:49:33 <fizzie> But it was ffff:0000 for 8086.
09:49:37 <pikhq_> Sgeo: A handful of things in x86 don't work consistently in all systems; shutdown is one of the big areas.
09:49:45 <fizzie> (I.e. physical ffff0.)
09:50:03 <kmc> don't confuse x86 with the PC platform
09:50:07 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Because of this, Linux basically tries a random smattering of different things.
09:50:40 <kmc> there is no reason to expect that all x86 systems would have the same shutdown sequence
09:50:50 <pikhq_> Trust me when I say your computer is, at its basis, a pile of hacks.
09:50:51 <kmc> that's a function of the platform and not the CPU architecture
09:51:02 <ais523> kmc: you'd expect them to have the same reset vector, though
09:51:14 <pikhq_> Yes, but you'd expect all IBM PCs to have the same one. ... Not that it works that way. :)
09:51:24 <Sgeo> pikhq_, this is fascinating, I want to learn more about these "hacks"
09:51:46 <kmc> the osdev wiki has some info
09:52:07 <pikhq_> Sgeo: You'd "love" how you figure out the address space map, then.
09:52:15 <pikhq_> (fun fact, it was standardised in *2002*.)
09:52:41 <kmc> Sgeo: write a real mode graphics demo which uses 640x480 resolution and fits in a boot sector
09:53:02 <Sgeo> I'm not entirely sure what is referred to by "address space map". Mapping what?
09:53:21 <Sgeo> Can't just refer to memory by a single number, I guess?
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09:53:44 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Some parts of the non-virtualised address space are in use. For instance, there's a chunk of memory dedicated to the BIOS, some to the video framebuffer, some for ACPI...
09:54:05 <pikhq_> The kernel needs to know about this so it doesn't allocate over them and break stuff.
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09:54:26 <Sgeo> pikhq_, well, ok. I'm going to guess that it's not as simple as "Anything below this number is reserved stuff"?
09:54:31 <Madoka-Kaname> Triple fault pretty guaranteed to reset the system?
09:54:39 <ais523> Madoka-Kaname: not much else it can do
09:54:48 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Nowhere *near*. In part because real mode makes that really hard.
09:54:49 <Sgeo> ais523, shut it down?
09:55:15 <fizzie> ais523: I'm sure there's *some* processor that has a more or less configurable reset vector. Quite a few let you configure endianness, after all. (Okay, scoped into x86 you'd expect it to be same.)
09:55:20 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Some of that reserved stuff is at the high end of the 16-bit address space.
09:55:48 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Normal real mode programs would run *below* that point, and it was reasonably well-known where the BIOS would be.
09:55:50 <fizzie> Also there's quite a lot of stuff around the one megabyte limit.
09:55:58 <fizzie> http://wiki.osdev.org/Memory_Map_(x86) lists some stuff.
09:56:09 <pikhq_> And then, there's anything added later.
09:56:33 <pikhq_> It could very well have gotten allocated at random points, because the evolution of the design is *weird*.
09:56:52 <fizzie> There's a hole between 15-16MB, too, for memory-mapped ISA stuff.
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09:57:36 <kmc> i learned the other day that the default location for RAM used by System Management Mode is under the VGA framebuffer
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09:57:52 <kmc> that is, accesses to those addresses in SMM go to RAM, in other modes they go to VGA hardware
09:58:00 <Sgeo> "By far the best way to detect the memory of a PC is by using the INT 0x15, EAX = 0xE820 command. This function is available on all PCs built since 2002"
09:58:35 <ais523> meanwhile, Microsoft are shooting themselves in the foot (although maybe not quite as badly as Yahoo!) with VC++2012
09:58:46 <Sgeo> ais523, howso?
09:58:50 <ais523> you have to pay for the expensive pay version to compile anything but Metro apps
09:58:57 <pikhq_> In effect, they're deprecating Win32.
09:59:15 <pikhq_> i.e. the only thing keeping Windows at all relevant.
09:59:21 <fizzie> You can check early dmesg for what your own computer's memory map looks like. It'll have a list like http://p.zem.fi/ujz1
10:00:15 <Sgeo> ais523, well, there are free compilers for Win32 right?
10:01:12 <ais523> yes; cygwin (produces executables that depend on a GPLed library, deliberately); mingw (produces properly native executables); apparently nowadays also clang
10:02:03 <pikhq_> ais523: cygwin can also be used to generate non-cygwin binaries.
10:02:10 <pikhq_> In this usage, it's basically mingw, though.
10:02:20 <pikhq_> By which I mean "literally".
10:02:32 <ais523> pikhq_: indeed, and a relatively crippled mingw at that
10:04:46 <pikhq_> Also "fun" is that ISA is basically still around.
10:04:58 <pikhq_> Well, nearly dead, but hey.
10:05:28 <kmc> nelhage's qemu breakout exploit involves hotplug-removing the emulated ISA bridge
10:05:49 <pikhq_> Certain devices are hanging off a bus that looks like the ISA bus to software, and IDE is literally very fast ISA.
10:06:04 <pikhq_> Admittedly, IDE is dead or dying.
10:06:24 <fizzie> Many hardware monitoring chips are "ISA" devices.
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10:07:52 <pikhq_> temp3: +85.0°C (low = +127.0°C, high = +112.0°C) sensor = thermal diode
10:07:57 <pikhq_> That... Can't be right.
10:08:03 <fizzie> Those things are also such a mess. Everyone wires the resistors differently, lm-sensors configuration files are full of "well, it's this chip, but we need to either multiply this by two or divide it by three depending on which MB it is".
10:08:34 <fizzie> And the labels are mostly guesswork too.
10:08:50 <fizzie> I've just labeled my voltage numbers manually based on which number they're closest to.
10:11:02 <fizzie> They have a rather large wiki of configurations, http://www.lm-sensors.org/wiki/Configurations
10:12:19 <pikhq_> Oh, jeeze, yeah... Also, compact flash.
10:12:38 <pikhq_> Electrically compatible with ISA and IDE.
10:12:54 <pikhq_> And PCMCIA, of course.
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10:14:56 <fizzie> Hey, someone's filed in the Wiki computation rules that might work for my Atom box. That's nice; currently the voltage readings are +1.68, +1.16, +1.50, +0.94, +1.10, +0.82, +0.94, +1.53 and +1.50. Apparently those should be multiplied by 2, 1, 1, 5.255319148, 11, 5.255319148, 2, 2 and 2, respectively, in order to get actual voltages.
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10:36:24 <Sgeo> OS dev is not a CS subject, right?
10:36:31 <Sgeo> So what sort of thing is it?
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10:38:39 <Sgeo> "It is a powerful feeling for the only code to be running on a machine to be your own."
10:38:47 <Sgeo> What about BIOS/EFI, that's not your own code...
10:41:30 <kmc> well that isn't running after boot
10:41:40 <kmc> but SMM is
10:41:57 <kmc> as is the firmware on hundreds of special purpose controllers all over the motherboard
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10:43:03 <kmc> Sgeo: it's common for CS programs to have OS courses
10:43:31 <kmc> CMU's is supposedly very good
10:43:35 <kmc> MIT's 6.828 is very good
10:43:36 <Sgeo> Do they discuss what things must do on actual hardware?
10:43:40 <Sgeo> The course I took did not
10:43:45 <kmc> in large part
10:44:01 <Sgeo> The professor wrote a program in .NET with a simulated CPU
10:44:08 <kmc> in 6.828 you write substantial parts of an OS that can run on a real PC
10:44:11 <Sgeo> We would write algorithms for various things as plugins in C#
10:44:25 <Sgeo> kmc, is MIT's course on Open CourseWare or whatever?
10:44:37 <kmc> some of the more arbitrary details of x86 are dealt with in code that's provided to you
10:44:43 <kmc> but it is explained and they go into some detail
10:44:56 <kmc> by the way i recently came across http://www.returninfinity.com/pure64.html
10:45:02 <Sgeo> kmc, I'm stuck in a shitty school
10:45:29 <kmc> Sgeo: i don't remember if it's formally on OCW... but I had no trouble finding the labs online
10:46:04 <kmc> i've only done the labs where you work on JOS, the cool "exokernel" OS
10:46:26 <Sgeo> "You end up writing code that gets plugged in as part of the simulation rather than as code that executes on the simulated computer."
10:46:37 <Sgeo> ^^just said that to my gf explaining what the course is like
10:46:38 <kmc> i haven't looked at the other parts of the course, like the parts that deal with xv6, which is a UNIX-like OS
10:46:47 <kmc> Sgeo: that's double lame
10:47:00 <kmc> at least for something claiming to be an OS course
10:47:08 <kmc> it would be a good way to approach CPU architecture, though
10:47:18 <kmc> 6.004 is another very cool MIT class
10:47:42 <Sgeo> I think the idea was to understand the algorithms behind, say, fixed partitioning memory whatchamacallit
10:47:44 <kmc> you design a RISC CPU at the level of individual logic gates
10:48:03 <Sgeo> kmc, I wish I went to MIT
10:48:12 <kmc> their simulator is very simple, nowhere near as much complexity as an industrial HDL
10:48:45 <kmc> but the simulator is specific enough that you can play with timing and try to optimize your design for higher clock speed
10:48:51 <kmc> Sgeo: I've never been an MIT student
10:48:56 <Sgeo> http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-828-operating-system-engineering-fall-2006/
10:49:12 <kmc> labs are here: http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2011/
10:49:54 <Sgeo> kmc, how are OSDev's tutorials?
10:50:11 <kmc> i've just used it as a reference to a few specific things
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10:54:19 <Sgeo> "All of the 32-bit registers (EAX, ...) are still usable, by simply adding the "Operand Size Override Prefix" (0x66) to the beginning of any instruction. Your assembler is likely to do this for you, if you simply try to use a 32-bit register."
10:54:27 <Sgeo> I guess assemblers aren't as trivial as I thought
10:55:11 <ais523> assemblers still just do symbol resolution (and much of that's done by the linker nowadays), and convert opcode names into machine code
10:55:17 <ais523> just there are a /lot/ of opcode names nowadays to convert
10:55:40 <Sgeo> "Some OS designers think that it is simpler and cleaner to temporarily return to Real Mode on those occasions when it is necessary to access a BIOS function. "
10:55:55 <Sgeo> I... I guess it wasn't simpler and cleaner when the CPU had to be restarted, right?
10:56:06 <Sgeo> What OSes do that?
10:58:09 <Sgeo> ". Probing memory-mapped PCI devices may have *unpredictable results* and may theoretically *damage your system*, so once again we discourage its use."
11:02:24 <kmc> x86 assembler's job is actually pretty easy compared to some architectures
11:03:48 <Sgeo> What architectures have assemblers that need to do significantly more than what amounts to a find and replace?
11:04:13 <Sgeo> </possibly-revealing-lack-of-knowledge-about-assemblers>
11:04:40 <kmc> on ARM a simple "load from immediate" encodes in kind of a complicated way
11:05:03 <kmc> the assembler might translate it to a load from memory, and put a constant into memory somewhere
11:06:15 <kmc> also conditionals work totally differently depending on which variant of ARM you're using and which CPU mode it's in
11:06:29 <kmc> most ARM chips support switching back and forth between at least two instruction sets, ARM and Thumb
11:06:44 <kmc> so the assembler has to keep track of that as well
11:08:24 <kmc> also the linker can generate additional instructions as it links, and there's a register reserved for this purpose
11:08:50 <kmc> (which is not directly a concern for the assembler, however)
11:16:24 <kmc> Sgeo: on Itanium the potential parallelism between instructions is explicitly encoded in the machine code
11:16:40 <kmc> and some assemblers can figure this out for you automatically
11:17:36 <Sgeo> Does doing that mean more microoptimizations are possible for programmers willing to mess with the machine code, or is it a matter of what will make the chip be faster, or what's the purpose of that design decision?
11:18:31 <kmc> i think the idea is to have less complex (and therefore, all else equal, faster) hardware
11:18:49 <Sgeo> Hmm, also, those computations at assembly-time rather than run-time I guess'
11:19:04 <kmc> explicitly encode parallelism instead of having the CPU figure it out on the fly
11:19:13 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VLIW
11:19:18 <kmc> i don't know much about VLIW though
11:19:53 <fizzie> Sadly, I don't think VLIW-architecture compilers have been so incredibly clever after all.
11:20:19 <kmc> though VLIW or no, a good compiler still needs to know a lot of microarchitectural details in order to produce good code
11:20:38 <kmc> it's fun to run the same code through gcc with various settings for -march=... and see what it produces
11:21:44 <kmc> on Itanium you explicitly encode the parallelism; on x86 you read about how the chip will infer the parallelism and then explicitly arrange instructions so it infers what you wanted ;)
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13:02:15 <ais523> http://www.groklaw.net/pdf3/OraGoogle-1193.pdf
13:02:34 <ais523> (it's a scanned-in version of all the questions the jurors asked in oracle v. google)
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13:08:41 <fizzie> How's oragoogle going? Have they decided the copyrightability of API thing yet?
13:09:09 <fizzie> The thing the judge was going to decide by himself.
13:09:43 <fizzie> I guess I can read groklaw myself, though.
13:11:13 <ais523> "Please provide more notebooks for Phase 2." indeed!
13:11:20 <ais523> and no, no copyright progress
13:11:25 <ais523> google won on all the patent allegations
13:17:55 <ais523> yes, now that the full story's coming out it seems that they were
13:18:05 <ais523> especially if you read one of the interviews with the jury foreman
13:18:16 <ais523> (who was the only one who did interviews after the trial)
13:18:23 <fizzie> I would like to know how the court case about my ISP blocking Pirate Bay is going. They did it in early January (when someone had managed to dream up a list of DNS names and IP addresses), and the decision itself from the lowest court came in October 2011; IIRC they immediately filed an appeal, but I haven't heard anything about it, even though it's been seven months now. And there's no web ...
13:18:29 <fizzie> ... thing that I know of to follow on these things.
13:20:06 <Madoka-Kaname> "Can you explain the difference between a package an an API"
13:20:30 <Madoka-Kaname> Then again, if they had even a single programmer, it would likely end VERY quickly.
13:21:03 <fizzie> If they had programmers, they kicked them out.
13:22:14 <ais523> yep, there were several people who knew about programming in the jury selection pool, who got excluded for one reason or another
13:22:24 <ais523> (knowing about programming seems to have been enough of a reason to exclude…)
13:22:40 <ais523> so the jury were selected to not know about the issues in advance
13:22:52 <fizzie> As far as I know, just plain knowing anything about the matter in question is usually a reason enough.
13:23:20 <ais523> there were also some lawyers in the jury selection pool, they got excluded too
13:23:43 <ais523> I vaguely wonder why they even bother to put lawyers in the pool, they're basically guaranteed to get excluded from every case
13:23:55 * ais523 much prefers the UK system
13:24:17 <ais523> where they just take the first 12 random people, unless there's a really obvious reason why they shouldn't be there, like being a relative of the defendant
13:24:23 <Gregor> The jury selection pool is random, neither your profession nor background is relevant until the actual selection process.
13:24:53 <Gregor> Ah, yeah, the very existence of a selection process is somewhat suspect.
13:25:09 <fizzie> It's also specified by law, so they can't just drop people that they thing are likely to be dropped, I suppose.
13:28:04 <fizzie> We don't have much of a jury thing, though the district courts have this "lay judge" people.
13:28:51 <fizzie> I think Sweden is very close, except they have an actual jury system explicitly for libel and press-freedom cases.
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14:03:43 <Madoka-Kaname> It's somehow better to start with people with no prior knowledge of the subject at hand??
14:09:07 <Sgeo> Is Star Trek: The Animated Series any good?
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14:19:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I know it has an episode which is written by Larry Niven which is just a straight copy of one of his short stories but with the Enterprise pasted in.
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14:19:36 <Sgeo> Niven... Niven...
14:19:43 <Sgeo> Why does the name Larry Niven sound familiar
14:19:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Which also has the delightful side-effect of welding the Star Trek and Known Space canons.
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14:29:10 <itidus21> i wonder if jury selection is like bfjoust
14:33:28 <Sgeo> I think I've heard the name due to Creatures community
14:34:01 <Sgeo> There was some sort of text-based game
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14:38:29 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regicides_of_Charles_I
14:38:34 <ais523> haven't followed the link yet, was just admiring the URL
14:39:52 <ais523> the page content is disappointing by comparison
14:40:06 <itidus21> The Jury or Juror has the following question: "I'm Sick. Can I get a sick day without being discharged? Sorry."
14:43:10 <ais523> she was discharged, in order to not hold up the trial, and also because the judge was worried about the illness spreading
14:43:40 <Sgeo> I'd hate to miss Jury duty due to being sick
14:45:02 <ais523> you probably would if you'd already spent two weeks listening to the evidence
14:45:34 <ais523> I remember the judge talking about the situation the following day (the whole jury'd been dismissed for the afternoon)
14:45:53 <itidus21> i think i could excuse myself from being in a jury
14:46:10 <ais523> he pointed out that there were three possibilities: he could arrest her and force her to serve (legally), but he thought that was a stupid idea; wait for her (she'd likely take at least a day); or discharge her
14:46:10 <ais523> so the third option was the only really sane one
14:46:25 <itidus21> you guys have heard me chat.. i don't think it would take much for me to show its a bad idea to have me in there
14:47:29 <Gregor> There's an episode of Becker where the titular character is awaiting jury duty, and decides to bring a book about law with him since to his non-stupid mind that makes sense. At first in the juror interviews he says things like, "in fact, I've been reading a book about law and–" before they dismiss him, but by the end he realizes that even if he just says "book" he'll be dismissed.
14:47:44 <itidus21> Gregor: yes i saw some of this on tv the other week!
14:49:03 <itidus21> i remember the book thing at least
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14:50:22 <itidus21> i wonder if discussing jury duty excludes us all from doing jury duty?
14:51:09 <Gregor> Knowing enough about civics to realize that there exists a concept of jury duty excludes you from jury duty.
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14:54:43 <itidus21> i wonder how many of those in the jury subsequently took up programming hobby
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15:01:25 <itidus21> with this, i also thought up a new way to set up a school. that if you fail, some anonymous person in the class takes the fall for you.
15:02:03 <itidus21> although such a system could be exploited by those who don't have much morals, it may be highly motivating
15:04:53 <Madoka-Kaname> itidus21, I'd imagine that at least one took up programming. I'm sure anybody able to fully understand low level stuff like that in the span of 2 weeks would do at least decently
15:06:46 <itidus21> they were probably motivated to learn by knowing that there were consequences for failing to learn.. i think thats where i bridged the two ideas
15:14:27 <Madoka-Kaname> <itidus21> with this, i also thought up a new way to set up a school. that if you fail, some anonymous person in the class takes the fall for you.
15:14:52 <Madoka-Kaname> Do I need to say what happens if you try that K-12 or pre-graduate?
15:14:58 <Madoka-Kaname> (And people will call you super-unfair post-graduate)
15:15:16 <itidus21> i wanted to unpost that after i posted it
15:15:44 <itidus21> i can feel a spirit of fascism in it
15:30:43 <Taneb> I had 3 exams today
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16:32:58 <Sgeo> I'm installing a new version of the JVM
16:33:21 <Sgeo> And the ad in the installer says Java is installed in 3 billion places, including cell phones
16:39:18 <Taneb> My old phone had it
16:39:55 <Sgeo> I was just amused, because of the whole Oracle vs Google over Android thing
16:41:06 <pikhq> That's not counting Android.
16:41:26 <Taneb> Hang on, my new phone has it
16:41:28 <pikhq> Though it is counting the large number of feature phones, which invariably have Java ME.
16:42:57 <Taneb> I don't think either of my middle phones had it?
16:52:43 <pikhq> Almost surely did.
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16:54:00 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure the only phones *without* a JVM installed on them in the past decade are Android phones.
16:54:18 <Gregor> I'm sure Windows phones don't have a JVM.
16:54:22 <Sgeo> pikhq, iPhone has a JVM?
16:54:28 <Gregor> Yeah, iPhone definitely doesn't.
16:54:54 <pikhq> Okay, apparently smartphones are weirder than I thought.
16:55:11 <nortti> well featurephones didn't tecnicaly use JVM. they used KVM
16:55:12 <Sgeo> I should write an apology to #scheme
16:55:18 <Sgeo> I inflicted a clueless person on them
16:55:38 <Gregor> Windows phones are a .NET monstrosity on top of Windows CE, which is of course also a monstrosity.
16:55:56 <Gregor> iPhone is quite fervently against VM languages, except for JavaScript.
16:56:04 <Gregor> (And then only their VM)
16:57:16 <pikhq> Apparently Apple decided to permit Sun to do a port. Sun has not since bothered.
16:57:23 <pikhq> And Oracle is unlikely to.
16:58:03 <pikhq> As they seem to be moving into the lucrative "lawsuit" market.
17:03:28 <Gregor> Man, xz is REALLY slow.
17:04:38 <Gregor> I don't know if its compression ratio is worth its speed.
17:06:14 <Gregor> Wow, although it sure is an impressive compression ratio X-D
17:06:24 <Gregor> Just got a Snowflake root image to 20% original size.
17:09:39 <calamari> Gregor: I stopped using bzip2 and I just use gzip since it's faster.. slightly bigger but not too much difference between those two anyways
17:10:00 <calamari> is xz significantly better than bzip2?
17:10:38 * Sgeo puts SICP on his Nook
17:10:50 <Gregor> It's unequivocally better. Whether it's significantly better depends on who you ask, the phase of the moon, ...
17:12:21 <calamari> ah you can use it on the kernel, that's cool
17:15:11 <Phantom_Hoover> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GaussianGirl
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17:18:12 <Lumpio-> >Named for the Gaussian Blur effect in Adobe Photoshop and imitators.
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18:30:48 <nortti_> does anyone here know free shell account provider that lets users run ircbots
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18:38:13 <fizzie> Does it need to be still alive?-)
18:39:56 <fizzie> Or does it count if it is a free shell provider but has an annual-cost membership tier which allows that?
18:41:39 <fizzie> Well, I mean, it is still a completely free shell provider (for some users), and it does let (some) users run ircbots, it's just that the two sets of users don't intersect.
18:43:09 <nortti_> it has to let free shell accounts run ircbots
18:43:45 <calamari> nortti: why not run it from your connection?
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18:45:37 <impomatic> Song contest? Like #songsincode or something?
18:46:08 <impomatic> Which reminds me, there's still a few days left to enter http://code-poems.com
18:48:15 <fizzie> nortti_: If IPv6-only IRC is okay, I think geekshells.org maybe? Haven't tried, but their front page mentions precompiled eggdrops.
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18:48:59 <nortti_> calamari: freenode requires SASL from users of my ISP
18:49:25 <nortti_> fizzie: well I have my own ircbot coded in python
18:50:34 <nortti_> calamari: freenode block users of my ISP if their irc client/bots don't use SASL
18:52:33 <fizzie> nortti_: You could get a v6 tunnel and run your IRC thing over that. (It's what I do at the moment, since they started doing that for my ISP too, and the bouncer I've been using doesn't do SASL.)
18:53:09 <nortti_> fizzie: do you also use elisa?
18:53:41 <nortti_> what does [calamari VERSION] meaŋ
18:54:16 <calamari> your client responded: -nortti_- VERSION AndroIRC - Android IRC Client (3.3.4 - Build 54a08b6-) - http://www.androirc.com
18:55:29 <fizzie> It's not all *that* hard, based on the length (not terribly long) of the xchat/irssi SASL patches freenode distributes. (Still, it... might be a file before I can manage to do that for fungot.)
18:55:43 <fizzie> It's not even a patch.
18:56:41 <nortti_> yeah. but getting it to work is another thing. I have even more reasons to hate perl now
18:56:45 <calamari> looks like there are a few free sasl implementations for python out there too
18:57:36 <nortti_> calamari: if something under BSD/ISC/MIT/CC0/WTFPL shows up tell me
18:58:39 <fizzie> One of the XChat scripts is in Python. Though admittedly it's GPL'd and they say it's broken by some Debian/Ubuntu patch, which is kinda weird.
18:59:34 <nortti_> yeah. I don't really like GPL <=2 and hate GPL 3
19:00:32 <nortti_> nope. They are jusr toi restrictive
19:01:42 <nortti_> I was fan of GPL but nowadays I use WTFPL
19:04:24 <nortti_> Also I think that calling linux distr
19:04:41 <nortti_> +os GNU/linux distros is stupid
19:05:17 <nortti_> next step: FSF says linux has to be called stalmaniz
19:26:13 <kmc> calling it GNU/Linux is not a matter of politics, just basic correctness
19:26:30 <kmc> i frequently have occasion to talk about GNU tools on other kernels, as well as other userland on Linux
19:29:34 <nortti_> well then it kinda makes sense but calling distro that has gcc+binutils as only gnu software GNU/Linux is stupid
19:29:57 <Gregor> People DON'T call distros that have only gcc+binutils GNU/Linux.
19:30:01 <Gregor> Because of that matter of basic correctness.
19:30:08 <kmc> most "Linux distros" have a lot more GNU software than that
19:30:30 <kmc> this is exactly *why* FSF cares what you call it!
19:30:34 <Gregor> That's actually the most compelling reason to use the term, to disambiguate the vast majority of distros from those few unique ones. GNU/Linux = GNU userland, Android is not GNU/Linux.
19:31:09 <kmc> because you're ignoring many of their contributions
19:31:55 <nortti_> Gregor: they don't? explain SliTaz GNU/Linux
19:32:30 <kmc> what libc does SliTaz use?
19:32:33 <kmc> what coreutils?
19:33:11 <nortti_> kmc: glibc, busybox. and it doesn't include gcc and binutils on normal install
19:33:28 <kmc> so they use glibc
19:33:50 <Gregor> glibc is a pretty major component, already on its way to being quite reasonably "GNU/"
19:35:07 <kmc> you don't have to like GNU project, but refusing to acknowledge their contributions as a way to stick it to RMS is just churlish
19:35:23 <nortti_> it is a major component but still just one component. Should I call my distro jmld MUSL/Linux
19:35:32 * ion looks up “churlish”.
19:35:33 <kmc> if you like
19:36:04 <pikhq_> nortti_: If you're only using gcc and binutils, you're about as GNU as BSD. :)
19:36:16 <kmc> nortti_: I don't care if you do or not
19:36:35 <kmc> but if I see someone in another channel call it "MUSL/Linux" i'm not going to be like "hey call it Linux, fuck that nortti_ guy"
19:37:43 <nortti_> kmc: I have nothing against them. I just don't like their licenses and that they want everyone to call every linux distro containing even a tiny bit of GNU software GNU/Linux
19:39:59 <Gregor> I probably would find it perfectly reasonable for SliTaz to call themselves something else. They're at best a border case. But it's not at all ambiguous for the vast, vast majority of distros.
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19:45:12 <nortti_> well if you really want to call linux distro that has gcc+binutils+gnu coreutils+glibc GNU/Linux go for it but I still think it is kinda stupid. If it had something like 25% of software made by GNU I would use GNU/Linux
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19:45:43 <kmc> it's dumb to put a number on it
19:45:54 <kmc> the point is, i recognize the contribution of GNU, and I personally choose to acknowledge it
19:46:06 <kmc> i'm not going to like go into #ubuntu and yell at them all for saying "Linux"
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19:47:21 <kmc> i'm not going to pick a fight, as RMS would, and as you did
19:47:57 <kmc> you know recognizing GNU's contribution to open source software does not require agreeing with every crazy thing the FSF says
19:48:01 <kmc> i don't even particularly like the GPL
19:48:18 <nortti_> ny distro is GNU/Busybox/MUSL/Linux
19:50:59 <nortti_> but yeah. they have done much good for open source but also mach bad for it
19:51:33 <nortti_> I still think there is more good things they have done
19:52:28 <itidus21> i can't see the big picture.. just how good is the best unix system?
19:53:03 <itidus21> (sees the answer but add sthis anyway) that the free alternative takes this much work
19:53:17 <kmc> or is not as good
19:53:55 <itidus21> is gnu/linux not as good as the best existing unix?
19:54:17 <kmc> depends on what you're doing
19:54:18 <Lumpio-> Well it depends on how good the best unix is
19:54:26 <Lumpio-> I'd say Linux is something like a 17
19:54:29 <Lumpio-> On the standard goodness scale
19:54:43 <kmc> it's a mysterious question because it's a stupid question ;P
19:54:45 <itidus21> why would anyone even pay for unix anymore then?
19:54:50 <kmc> things aren't ranked according to a clear goodness scale
19:56:06 <nortti_> bit offtopic but original unixen are free currently
19:56:10 <itidus21> maybe i should look these things up and not ask the dumb questions
19:57:24 <kmc> if by "GNU/Linux" you mean that you compile upstream sources and run those, then it's a disaster for security
19:57:25 <Lumpio-> Phantom_Hoover: I said, on the standard scale
19:57:38 <kmc> the Linux kernel devs don't even keep track of which commits are security-relevant
19:57:43 <kmc> in fact I think they deliberately obfuscate it
19:58:01 <Lumpio-> "out of what?" when somebody tells you it's 16 o'clock
19:58:07 <kmc> you need a distribution to keep track of security, and to backport security fixes so you don't need a full upgrade
19:58:34 <kmc> and based on paying a lot of attention to this for a while, Red Hat does a much better job than any of the distros you can get for free
20:01:58 <kmc> and CentOS will get you those updates for free, but only after months of delay
20:02:29 <itidus21> someone who was born in the year 2000 will have some confusion over why their world is linux mac and windows
20:03:22 <nortti_> itidus21: what do yo mean?
20:05:14 <nortti_> why would it make more sense for people not born in year 2000?
20:06:45 <itidus21> i mean it won't occur to them that windows is an attempt to cash in on the idea of GUI, and linux and/or GNU/linux is a free(or freer?) version of some programmers workbench(wiki)
20:07:01 <itidus21> they would just have to invent their own idea of what linux and windows are
20:07:39 <kmc> you are barely coherent
20:09:25 <nortti_> itidus21: occured for my little sister born in 2000 and for me born in 1997
20:09:42 <kmc> nortti_: you were born in 1997?
20:10:14 <kmc> i feel old
20:11:05 <fizzie> Whoa, a post-Windows 95 birth is kinda weird, yes.
20:12:09 <kmc> nortti_: 1988
20:12:13 <kmc> almost 10 years before you
20:12:22 <fizzie> Also I feel old when younger people say "I feel old", like now.
20:12:31 <Lumpio-> Bein' born like it's the 80s
20:12:49 <fizzie> Being born is so 80s, no-one gets born nowadays.
20:15:13 <oerjan> fizzie: shaddap, whippersnapper
20:15:25 <fizzie> oerjan: I was kind of waiting for that.
20:15:28 <calamari> is there some simple replacement for /dev/dsp?
20:15:46 <kmc> how so? you want to send raw PCM data to the sound card?
20:15:51 <kmc> look at sox and play
20:16:38 <calamari> kmc: yeah.. it's kinda sad that ability is gone now
20:16:42 <fizzie> Alternatively, if you have code written for a /dev/dsp, 'padsp' LD_PRELOAD-emulates it with Pulse.
20:18:45 <nortti_> what do you mean by gone and when?
20:20:15 <calamari> nortti_: gone meaning /dev/dsp no longer exists
20:20:49 <nortti_> from since when? Slitaz seems to still have it
20:21:13 <Sgeo> I should read SICP at some point
20:22:42 <nortti_> why did the remove it? I still want to be able to drive other people crazy with find / > /dev/dsp
20:24:06 <oerjan> a great loss to harassment technology
20:30:10 <pikhq_> calamari: Beat Linux devs a bit.
20:31:19 <nortti_> I have never had problem with it. but then again I have only used IBMs and POMIs
20:35:40 <itidus21> nortti: well its weird cos when i was young 8bit NES was this exciting thing.. and infact the first game we got for it was pinball.. and stayed up all night playing that..
20:36:04 <itidus21> the next day xmas day our relatives had been told about this NES thing we have so were able to get even more games
20:36:10 <itidus21> it was a very whoa kind of day
20:36:41 <itidus21> up till that point most exciting possession would have been the slotcars
20:42:01 <itidus21> as for operating systems, i had some version of dos with qbasic1.0 included, then windows 3.1, we probably had win 95 i can't even remember, then win98SE,
20:42:56 <itidus21> and video games, i had pretty much stopped playing them by the time your sister born :-D
20:44:53 <nortti_> itidus21: My first computer was also DOS machine (well it also had win95 but after I learned how to use dos I preferred CLI over GUI.
20:47:54 <nortti_> I have always been hanging around the low ens
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20:56:29 <kmc> Sgeo: you should :)
20:56:50 <kmc> /dev/dsp was never a great interface
20:56:57 <kmc> you have to use ioctls to set the sample rate etc.
20:57:01 <elliott> you can copyright a db schema, right?
20:57:02 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:57:10 <kmc> in that sense, piping to 'play' is more convenient
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20:58:38 <elliott> 09:04:31: <ais523> well, it makes some sort of sense to have the key with the rest of the source on their dev machines, because it's part of what you need to actually build and release the extension
20:58:53 <elliott> I disagree, developers shouldn't have access to an important production-use private key...
20:59:08 <elliott> ah, it's a chrome-extension-signing key
20:59:11 <elliott> well, I stand by that, still
20:59:48 <elliott> "Also note the second Yahoo! employee reply right after the OP, who goes by the name: "?" - likely an abbreviation for "Yahoo?"."
21:00:30 <elliott> 09:08:01: <ais523> but still, a valid private key for Yahoo! is the sort of thing that criminals would find quite valuable
21:00:34 <elliott> well, it's not /that/ valuable
21:00:54 <elliott> all it lets you do is write a browser extension that people think Yahoo wrote for the next 5 minutes before Google special-case it
21:01:16 <elliott> 09:11:15: -!- cheater has joined #esoteric.
21:01:16 <elliott> 09:11:15: -!- ChanServ changed the modes of #esoteric: +b cheater*!*@*.adsl.alicedsl.de
21:01:16 <elliott> 09:11:15: -!- ChanServ has kicked cheater from #esoteric: User is banned from this channel
21:02:21 <elliott> 09:38:52: <Sgeo> Was a way to go protected -> real ever introduced?
21:02:27 <elliott> Sgeo: yes, and you can use it for "unreal mode"
21:02:39 <elliott> "In x86 computing, unreal mode, also big real mode, huge real mode, or flat real mode, is a variant of real mode, in which one or more data segment registers have been loaded with 32-bit addresses and limits."
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21:13:20 <MDude> http://images.4chan.org/vg/src/1337824725371.png
21:18:51 <elliott> 10:36:24: <Sgeo> OS dev is not a CS subject, right?
21:18:51 <elliott> 10:36:31: <Sgeo> So what sort of thing is it?
21:23:36 <elliott> Is "interiour" a valid spelling in any dialcet?
21:23:53 <elliott> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/interiour Apparently.
21:24:34 <shachaf> British spelling is so complicated even Brits don't know how to do it.
21:24:50 <elliott> Actually, in this case it's Australian English.
21:25:12 <shachaf> Commonwealth spelling is so complicated even Brits don't know how to do it.
21:28:44 <MDude> Meant to post that somewhere else.
21:29:29 <Sgeo> Someone wrote a Scheme interpreter in LSL
21:29:48 <Sgeo> I should totally just fix it up to be usable for general scripts in SL
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21:36:38 <elliott> "I need a map which can contain arbitrary values as long as their types are of the same typeclass."
21:36:59 <elliott> The joke is that they don't actually want that.
21:37:10 <Sgeo> I already thought of a solution
21:37:43 <Sgeo> Well, "I" and "thought" are slight exaggerations
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21:49:22 <Gregor> Are you kidding me X-D
21:50:37 <itidus21> for just kidding we might also say just joshing. i dunno which country that originates but its used in australia
21:50:50 <elliott> Gregor: It's in Crawl's los.cc :P
21:51:14 <Gregor> itidus21: "Joshing" in that meaning was not uncommon in the US a few decades ago.
21:51:32 <itidus21> ""Just joshing you" came from the late 1800's and has a very interesting story behind it! Josh Tatum was a deaf mute, but a very enterprising young man from the"
21:51:35 <Gregor> In fact, I can point to a line in MLP that uses it, and that's Canadian ;)
21:53:07 <itidus21> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_did_the_term_just_joshing_you_come_from
21:55:38 * oerjan considers asking the obvious question
22:08:58 <Sgeo> Ok why TF is a stupid wrapper around an HTML renderer taking up so much memory
22:10:49 <pikhq_> [...] HTML renderer [...] memory
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22:14:35 <oerjan> incidentally the answer to the obvious question was "yes".
22:16:01 <oerjan> (i didn't even have to google, just follow a couple of links)
22:27:15 <elliott> what was the obvious question.
22:27:37 <oerjan> "is that answer joshing us?"
22:28:59 <oerjan> specifically, the term is older than the events in the story, whether or not the story is true.
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22:39:14 <elliott> oerjan: i'm sad the story isn't true
22:40:39 * oerjan gives elliott a lollipop
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22:51:46 <oerjan> *A +1 staff of lollipop.
22:53:26 * elliott wished for 99 blessed greased fixed +42 staffs of lollipop
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23:15:13 <elliott> shachaf: http://nethackwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Nethack.alt.org&curid=2459&diff=78074&oldid=74669
23:15:18 <elliott> shachaf: NOW YOU'RE EVEN MORE FAMOUS.
23:23:42 <elliott> Patashu: What do quarterstaves of speed do?
23:24:15 <monqy> they're like quarterstaves,
23:24:27 <elliott> monqy: should i use a +2,+1 quarterstaff of speed
23:24:30 <elliott> im ddak that's going to cast spelles
23:24:54 <monqy> i think speed is something like 2x speed but in dcss at least they have slightly nerfed damage uhh
23:25:06 <monqy> i think also in dcss qstaves got buffed though so
23:25:09 <elliott> a - a +2,+2 dwarven hand axe (weapon)
23:25:09 <elliott> g - a +2,+1 quarterstaff of speed
23:25:16 <monqy> i'd use the qstaff
23:25:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: choices': not found
23:25:47 <elliott> Maybe I should be a DDAK stabber.
23:28:43 <Gregor> <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: choices': not found
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23:41:29 <oerjan> wtf http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/gjesteserie/morketid/ (i don't _think_ you need to understand the text...)
23:44:36 <oerjan> anyway let that be a warning to everyone to do careful testing of their time travel devices.
23:46:55 <shachaf> DID YOU HEAR THAT I'M FAMOUS?
23:47:32 <oerjan> WHITE UP POINTING INDEX? THAT'S RACIST
23:48:13 <shachaf> oerjan: Unicode doesn't have BLACK UP POINTING INDEX. :-(
23:48:52 <oerjan> unicode is racist, check
23:50:38 <Gregor> For some reason it has BLACK LEFT POINTING INDEX and BLACK RIGHT POINTING INDEX, but not UP or DOWN.
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23:55:09 <kmc> why are you famous shachaf
23:55:29 <shachaf> 16:15 <elliott> shachaf: http://nethackwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Nethack.alt.org&curid=2459&diff=78074&oldid=74669
23:55:31 <shachaf> 16:15 <elliott> shachaf: NOW YOU'RE EVEN MORE FAMOUS.
00:06:13 <itidus21> Gregor: there probably wasn't room for both, so they made room for WHITE UP POINTING INDEX
00:08:06 <itidus21> also theres WHITE FROWNING FACE but no BLACK FROWNING FACE
00:08:16 <oerjan> lebensraum, as they say
00:09:19 <itidus21> WHITE CLUB SUIT and WHITE SPADE SUIT they had room for
00:15:03 <itidus21> distraction!: http://i.imgur.com/ZgKOb.jpg
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01:02:20 <zzo38> Does the PC speaker driver broken on Linux?
01:03:07 <shachaf> zzo38: It wasn't last time I checked?
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01:06:06 <zzo38> I did find that the file "mzx_ascii.chr" from MegaZeux works fine as a Linux console font if the mappings are correct
01:08:47 <zzo38> (On the computer at FreeGeek I have tested this and it does work; now I can work on the mapping files to get it work better)
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01:17:25 <zzo38> I have written some thing on here in past, I thought about discardable functor and commutative applicative, now I also have idempotent applicative.
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01:46:03 <zzo38> Have you played Super Bat Puncher (for NES/Famicom)?
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01:53:06 <itidus21> thats why i like the japanese... thats why i like the NES... thats why i like the word Super
01:53:24 <itidus21> because even though i have no idea what Super Bat Puncher is..
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01:55:22 <zzo38> The game is good quality (especially the secret level) but it is not yet completed being made. You can download a demo, however.
02:01:32 <itidus21> oh then it must be a homebrew thing
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03:11:03 <zzo38> What is esoteric song contest?
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04:43:35 <zzo38> Heralds don't pun; they cant.
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04:49:39 <zzo38> Why did they change mathNEWS to make it slower and more confusing?
04:50:17 <zzo38> It makes it difficult to read and understand, and difficult to find the current issue, too
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06:23:44 <zzo38> Free (CoYoneda f) is *always* a monad regardless of what f is
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07:49:51 <elliott> http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TO&Product_Code=QW-MICRO-TREX&Category_Code=QW
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07:54:42 <elliott> http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TO&Product_Code=QW-MICRO-TREX&Category_Code=QW
07:56:18 <Taneb> If you give me your address and bank details, I'll buy one for you
07:56:54 <ion> Go and read Guillaume Joseph Hyacinthe Jean-Baptiste Le Gentil de la Galaisière’s biography. :-D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillaume_Le_Gentil
07:58:50 <Taneb> elliott, alternate solution: disable images in your browser
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08:04:48 <elliott> how to be confused: read http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2197 before http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2196
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08:48:36 <elliott> Two spammers on Esolang today.
08:48:50 <elliott> What gives me satisfaction is that every single time we get spammed, someone had to learn something about esolangs to do it.
09:00:52 <kmc> what, do you have an esolang captcha?
09:01:57 <Sgeo> Or something could be broken, allowing the spammers to get through without doing the captcha
09:02:12 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: Try and edit a page logged out to see :P
09:02:26 <elliott> Sgeo: ConfirmEdit being broken would be pretty hilarious.
09:02:34 <elliott> Sgeo: But no, I know that isn't happening.
09:02:48 <elliott> Web server logs prove it, unless they're using advanced NLP and faking a real browser.
09:02:57 <elliott> Also the spam rate would be much higher if it could also get through automated.
09:04:37 <Madoka-Kaname> Make it better and ask general programming questions
09:05:35 <pikhq> What would be *evil* is gluing "prove P=NP" to a proof verifier.
09:05:56 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: Seriously, I don't get what's evil about it.
09:06:27 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: ...well, so?
09:06:48 <pikhq> "You need to be at least this smart to edit (arrow pointing at Deep Thought)"
09:06:54 <pikhq> Madoka-Kaname: Sure, why not.
09:07:12 <Sgeo> But what if P!=NP
09:07:32 <Sgeo> Prove that either P=NP or P!=NP
09:07:36 <Sgeo> Hmm, I need to rephrase that.
09:07:58 <elliott> Prove either that P=NP, or that P!=NP.
09:08:10 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: You did notice the links, right?
09:08:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: Then they don't get to edit.
09:09:00 <elliott> I don't want an evil CAPTCHA, but I still don't really see how it's evil.
09:10:34 <Madoka-Kaname> Choose between INTERCAL, Brainfuck, Underload, Befunge, ///, and Unlambda
09:11:05 <Taneb> Isn't practically any text with matching square brackets valid brainfuck
09:11:49 <pikhq> Taneb: It *may* hit undefined behavior, but yes.
09:11:57 <pikhq> (namely, walking off the left edge of the tape)
09:12:03 <Taneb> Aw, now I want to write a brainfuck-Underload-///-Befunge polyglot
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09:13:24 <zzo38> There is a game on X-BIT called BATGUY, you have to select to pursue on foot, go by car, by helicopter, gun, climb wall, bazooka, send in Robin, or bet money. But everything goes wrong, there is a bomb in the helicopter, you eat the burger too much and cannot drive, trip over the ground, what else....
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09:13:48 <zzo38> He sometimes chases the wrong guy
09:18:52 <Taneb> How does Befunge behave on unknown characters?
09:19:12 <Taneb> Which is your favourite
09:20:00 <zzo38> Everyone has really bad aim... flying into Superman, blowing up the mayor's car, trip on the boots, the team trying to work together instead just collides and fall down, the ropes break, the engines break, they don't understand that the "R" stands for Reverse not Robin
09:20:47 <Taneb> In 98, they behave like "r"
09:22:45 <zzo38> Why do you keep pointing the bazooka backward?
09:28:26 <Deewiant> Taneb: In 98 they reverse, in 93 it's undefined but canonically they're noöps
09:28:38 <Taneb> I like what 98 does
09:29:00 <Deewiant> (Although I haven't read the '93 spec that closely so maybe it is defined there somewhere.)
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09:32:55 <Sgeo> Taneb, I assume you've seen the recent update?
09:33:20 <Taneb> ^bf_textgen brainfuck
09:34:11 <fizzie> That's not a fungot command.
09:34:12 <fungot> fizzie: it's provably perfect, and i'd need to arrange it so that each new invocation doesn't hammer the log site...
09:34:45 <EgoBot> 100 ++++++++++++++[>+>+++++++>++++++++><<<<-]>>.>++.<-.++++++++.+++++.--------.>+++.<---.++++++++.<----. [584]
09:35:34 <fizzie> fungot: It's also not provably perfect, at least if the measure of perfection is program length.
09:35:35 <fungot> fizzie: and what fnord of associative array?' is that?
09:35:56 <fizzie> What fnord of associative array indeed.
09:36:45 <shachaf> elliott: "the expression problem" is annoying. :-(
09:37:01 <elliott> shachaf: Why is it in quotes?
09:37:12 <elliott> 10:32 <fizzie> There "U" go.
09:37:21 <elliott> fizzie: It's made me happy "4" me, so "thx" "go" "2" "u".
09:37:44 <shachaf> elliott: Because that allows me not to take responsibility for the name.
09:37:58 <elliott> I don't think you understand how the use-mention distinction works.
09:38:06 <elliott> "The 'Expression Problem'" would have been correct, though.
09:38:11 <elliott> But you can't include the "the" like that.
09:38:24 <shachaf> Quotes are way overloaded in English.
09:38:33 <elliott> That's just that which makes that statement which you said incorrect, and that is just that which makes that confusing..
09:38:35 <shachaf> This is a standard and perfectly valid use.
09:38:51 <elliott> shachaf: "The expression problem" does not seem standard at all to me.
09:38:54 <shachaf> I wish they weren't so overloaded, but since they are, I might as well enjoy it.
09:39:01 <elliott> "The 'expression problem'" would have parsed fine.
09:39:12 <shachaf> And, anyway, that's a name.
09:39:26 <shachaf> The *name* of the thing is "the expression problem".
09:39:32 <shachaf> It doesn't deserve a definite article.
09:39:44 <elliott> Proof by Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expression_problem
09:39:45 <shachaf> I ain't gonna give it a definite article.
09:39:53 <shachaf> I'm not quoting Wikipedia.
09:39:55 <elliott> There's your definite article.
09:40:05 <lambdabot> I don't perform such side effects on command!
09:40:21 <shachaf> The *point* is that it's annoying.
09:40:28 <shachaf> Do you have a solution for it?
09:40:49 <elliott> My position is that it illustrates a fundamental dichotomy between two styles of programming and is inherently (and fairly simply) unsolvable by definition.
09:41:21 <shachaf> I don't care how you solve it. You can use a definition or an example or something else.
09:41:25 <shachaf> I just want it solved. :-(
09:41:28 <elliott> I said it was inherently unsolvable.
09:41:50 <elliott> It's not a problem which can be solved.
09:42:51 <shachaf> Next you'll reduce it to the halting problem.
09:43:35 <shachaf> elliott: Rice's theorem is a good theorem.
09:43:50 <elliott> I can tell you why the expression problem is unsolvable, if you'd like.
09:45:07 <elliott> OK, so the basic thing is: You can either define a union type, and write functions by discriminating on each case; this lets you add more behaviour (functions), but not more data (union elements).
09:45:17 <Madoka-Kaname> (>++++++[>+++++++<-]<++++++[>++++++++<-]>->[[.<]>[>]<[->+>+<<]>>[-<<+>>]<])!(*)S(/*)(~(*)*:S~:^):^
09:45:29 <elliott> You can define a product type with the implementations of the behaviour as the fields.
09:45:39 <elliott> This lets you add more data, but not more behaviour.
09:46:07 <elliott> You can't do both, because what would it mean to add more data when there is existing behaviour? You would have to specify the result for every single behaviour on your new piece of data.
09:46:20 <elliott> And since the whole point is that new behaviour can be added at will, this isn't possible.
09:46:36 <elliott> And what would it mean to add new behaviour when there is existing data? You would, again, have to supply the behaviour for all the existing data, which is impossible for the same reasons.
09:46:52 <shachaf> I think all you've specified is the problem itself. :-)
09:47:11 <elliott> I described the problem, and then told you why you can't do it.
09:47:23 <elliott> shachaf: Consider that the expression problem was first discussed in the context of a purported solution.
09:47:30 <Madoka-Kaname> Even a clean way to make a slashes/Underload polygot?
09:47:43 <elliott> My understanding of that solution is that it is not really a solution at all.
09:47:52 <shachaf> I don't know what that solution is.
09:48:04 <elliott> http://www.daimi.au.dk/~madst/tool/papers/expression.txt
09:48:10 <shachaf> What you described is the thing that one immediately thinks about when one hears about the problem.
09:48:14 <shachaf> And then one gets annoyed.
09:48:28 <elliott> It has a lot of distraction about recompiling and static type-safety and so on.
09:48:33 <elliott> shachaf: I don't get annoyed.
09:48:48 <elliott> shachaf: Actually I find it a very enlightening description of the essence of OOP vs. functional programming.
09:49:02 <elliott> And going over the fundamental trade-off is a good way to decide which is appropriate in each case.
09:49:24 <shachaf> Type classes vs. sum types in Haskell are in some sense a similar thing.
09:49:46 <elliott> shachaf: I dislike your bringing of typeclasses into it.
09:49:54 <elliott> I very specifically phrased my description with normal data types.
09:50:07 <elliott> data Behaviour = Behaviour { doThing :: Int -> IO (), zapBangName :: String }
09:50:20 <elliott> data Data = A Int | B String String [FilePath] | C Octagon
09:50:40 <elliott> a n = Behaviour { doThing = \m -> print (n + m), zapBangName = show n }
09:50:45 <elliott> doThingData :: Data -> Int -> IO ()
09:50:53 <elliott> doThingData (A n) m = print (n + m)
09:51:15 <elliott> shachaf: It's important to do it this way, because the two approaches are on equal footing; they're both types.
09:51:36 <shachaf> This doesn't have that much to do with OOP, though.
09:51:52 <elliott> To me, things like Behaviour are the very essence of OOP.
09:53:36 <elliott> shachaf: So what is OOP, if not encoding things as behaviour?
09:54:10 <Taneb> The first three letters of a not-very-good pop song
09:54:17 <shachaf> (There you'll be with your "use-mention distinction" again.)
09:54:31 <elliott> Taneb: What are the other letters?
09:55:22 <shachaf> (That's pronounced "GAÏN".)
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09:59:55 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, I've given up on solving things.
10:00:09 <Taneb> elliott, solve the eurozone crisis
10:00:22 <Taneb> Then solve the eurovision crisis (i.e., why does the UK suck at it)
10:00:29 <elliott> By "eurozone crisis", do you mean "everywhere crisis"?
10:00:33 <Madoka-Kaname> "We want to make it easy to add either rows or columns."
10:00:34 <zzo38> About some of these kind of things, there is the Typeable class in Haskell which can sometimes help too
10:00:45 <Taneb> elliott, slightly, yeah
10:00:47 <Madoka-Kaname> Functional features in an OO language? It's not like the two have any basic conflict.
10:00:59 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: That only lets you choose which you can add on a case-by-case basis.
10:01:20 <elliott> The idea is to be able to add both to any type.
10:01:20 <Taneb> BYOB blends the two in a language aimed at children
10:01:57 <Taneb> (it's what you get when you mix Logo, Lisp, and JavaScript, essentially)
10:02:20 <Taneb> That's where it gets it's OO from.
10:04:18 <Taneb> zzo38, I was thinking about Prelude.Generalize this morning, which is probably a bad idea
10:05:55 <zzo38> Thinking is a bad idea?
10:09:27 <zzo38> Taneb: What idea did you think of, about it?
10:09:48 <Taneb> unchurch :: Peanoid a => ((a -> a) -> a -> a) -> a
10:09:56 <Taneb> unchurch f = f succP zeroP
10:09:58 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
10:12:35 <Taneb> Also; instance Peanoid ((a -> a) -> a -> a) where zeroP = const id; succP = (<*>) (.)
10:14:17 <Taneb> (this makes church a specialization of transPeano, I think)
10:14:26 <nortti> what the fuck!? freenode let my bot in! I love freenode
10:14:37 <Taneb> nortti, you have a bot?
10:14:49 <nortti> fizzie: elisa seems to be no more blocked
10:14:58 <nortti> Taneb: yes. on #esoteric-en
10:15:47 <zzo38> It doesn't seem possible to make it to add rows and columns to any type; but there are ways to do something close for specific purposes, one thing is object-oriented but there are other things too, possibly some things in "extensible-data" package might help in some cases, and maybe other uses of Typeable class such as: data Xyz where { Xyz :: forall x. XyzClass x => x -> Xyz; } deriving Typeable; class Typeable x => XyzClass x where { ... };
10:18:39 <zzo38> How can it be completely possible in any programming language?
10:19:03 <zzo38> It seems there must be some kind of restriction, either rows, columns, or uses.
10:26:06 <zzo38> I, too, have a unrelated problem: I need to figure out what words to use to lead the chancellor into the trap in the Dungeons&Dragons game.
10:26:56 <Taneb> "Oi! Chancellor! Come in 'ere if you think you're hard enough, matey!"
10:28:28 <zzo38> Best is also if we can get him to reveal where he hid the king, before he arrives.
10:30:44 <fizzie> Maybe the chancellor is Yakra, and the real one is in a chest.
10:31:01 <Taneb> "Oi! Chancellor! We've found you're kingy, he was hidden in a real lame place! Come in here if you think you're hard enough, ya lame no-life!"
10:31:07 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/s8buc/monad_egg_for_chicken_scheme_released/
10:31:16 <Sgeo> Please tell me that Mr. [deleted] is not the author of the egg
10:32:14 <elliott> i like the part where their monad is a functor
10:33:01 <Sgeo> The linked page looks correct at least, but maybe someone fixed the page... who knows what's with the code
10:33:38 <fizzie> Yakra impersonates the chancellor twice in Chrono Trigger.
10:33:59 <zzo38> O, that is what it is.
10:34:59 <Sgeo> I should learn Scheme macros at some point
10:36:33 <fizzie> Ah, but which Scheme macros? Syntax-rules, or syntax-case?
10:36:45 <zzo38> No I think it is the real chancellor but he is a bad person and has done bad things. My intention is make him dead without letting anyone know he is dead, but first require his autograph, so that I can compare his handwriting with the other handwriting. I already found the dummy
10:36:49 <elliott> Or the defmacro-alikes found in many Scheme implementations?
10:36:50 <Sgeo> fizzie, whichever
10:37:04 <Sgeo> elliott, thanks for encouraging my decision paralysis :(
10:37:23 <Sgeo> I ... think I'm going to try to stick with Chicken for a while unless there's a good reason not to
10:37:33 <Taneb> zzo38, crossdess and lure him into a honey trap?
10:37:38 <elliott> Sgeo: i have completely given up on influencing your behaviour in any way
10:37:41 <Sgeo> Although laziness in trying to set it up my stymie
10:37:47 <zzo38> Taneb: I do not understand.
10:37:48 <Sgeo> might stymie me
10:38:08 <Taneb> Utlilize his libido against him
10:39:00 <elliott> im just going to /clear instead of reading the context to that
10:39:19 <fizzie> Well, Chicken has syntax-rules and a low-level defmacroish macro system built in, and a syntax-case egg, so just sticking with it doesn't really help when it comes to selecting a macro system.
10:39:21 <zzo38> Taneb: I doubt I can do any of those things
10:39:57 <Taneb> zzo38, how good is your charisma?
10:40:24 <fizzie> Though I suppose the syntax-case egg is for version 3.
10:40:35 <Sgeo> fizzie, it helps when it comes to selecting a Scheme
10:40:55 <Taneb> IT WILL WORK PERFECTLY
10:41:06 <zzo38> All the information about the game is available on my computer and can be accessed by internet
10:42:34 <zzo38> Changing my dress is unlikely to help
10:42:52 <Taneb> What if you get him drunk first?
10:43:07 <Sgeo> fizzie, if they're all part of the same Scheme, then I just choose whichever I need in the specific situation, right?
10:43:31 <Sgeo> Are code-walkers easier in Scheme than CL?
10:43:48 <zzo38> I think you completely fail to understand the situation... I need to tell him something remotely; we cannot see each other or touch each other before he arrives
10:45:09 <zzo38> I may need some scrolls of Locate Creature too
10:45:31 <Taneb> I've never actually played DnD
10:45:40 <Taneb> I've got a player's handbook for some reason
10:46:07 <zzo38> I am playing 3.5ed. I don't like 4th ed
10:46:12 <Sgeo> Why am I ignoring Racket?
10:48:04 <zzo38> Taneb: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20.tex
10:48:54 <Sgeo> About the Scheme interpreter in LSL
10:48:55 <Sgeo> "There are still scheme features that are not implimented. Among these are the following: - There is no way to define macros. - There are no floating point numbers. - Procedures must be created using lambda. It is not possible to write (define (square x) (* x x)) - There is no such thing as a dotted pair! *gasp* - Cond, Let, Display have not been defined."
10:49:00 <zzo38> That is the current situation in the game.
10:49:10 <zzo38> (My character is Kjugobe)
10:49:41 <Taneb> I'm not likely to be much help
10:50:37 <zzo38> There is also the .dvi file but you may want the source it asks you what level of detail you want to print before it compiles. You also need dungeonsrecording.tex
10:52:54 <fizzie> Sgeo: But does it have continuations?
10:53:52 <fizzie> It's such a Scheme thing it ought to be on the list.
10:54:05 <zzo38> My idea was Icosahedral RPG; 4th ed changed many things I don't like and Icosahedral is changed from 3rd ed mostly in the opposite ways (this is mainly a coincidence; these ideas were much from before 4th ed was announced)
10:54:30 <zzo38> For example, 4th ed has CR but no LA, Icosahedral has LA but no CR.
10:58:14 <zzo38> Icosahedral RPG also completes PC/NPC unification, something 3rd ed has partially done and 4th ed has abandoned.
11:00:46 <zzo38> Arcane magic in 3rd ed (and all earlier editions) is not sufficiently arcane (in my opinion), and in 4th ed it is not even sufficiently magic!
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11:15:12 <zzo38> (The things that used CR in D&D are not used in Icosahedral RPG, so there is no need to have CR.)
11:16:21 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/6mg5v.jpg
11:18:50 <elliott> ion: Crawl Light has squarelos now!
11:20:11 <zzo38> Make a variant with knightlos
11:20:37 <ion> elliott: You haven’t!
11:20:44 <zzo38> Yes it probably would be confusing
11:20:57 <elliott> ion: BEHOLD: https://github.com/dtsund/crawl-light/commit/4978bd01902f948a5bdbc00d48539a2d912523a7
11:21:16 <ion> I have unfinished games on both CAO and CDO, btw. :-P
11:21:27 <elliott> ion: You know how Crawl has a bunch of repetitive levels and could stand to have the branches a bit shorter? And also how curses are so meaningless as to be pointless?
11:21:44 <elliott> And also how hunger is more of an annoyance than anything else? And also how the identificaiton game is kind of lame? And also how the LOS is a badly-approximated circle?
11:21:48 <elliott> LIGHT FIXES ALL THESE THINGS.
11:21:56 <elliott> Because I spent two days manually applying and fixing a patch.
11:22:10 <elliott> ion: Anyway, two unfinished games is not nearly enough.
11:24:09 <elliott> ion: Have I mentioned Light has a hard mode?
11:24:21 <elliott> Lots of dragons and eyes of draining and multiple nasty uniques on the same dungeon level.
11:24:29 <elliott> I mean devastation, I think.
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11:29:42 <ion> I suppose the “circle” LOS is more like a rounded plus shape since diagonal moves have the same cost as horizontal and vertical moves, one could say you see further horizontally and vertically than diagonally. And the “square” LOS is more like a circle given the nonlinear topology.
11:30:12 <elliott> ion: circlelos does ridiculous things like make it more advantageous to approach from a diagonal.
11:30:31 <elliott> ion: (I think the "rounded plus shape" is actually a diamond.)
11:30:52 <ion> Hmm, it might be.
11:30:53 <Sgeo> What's MIT scheme like?
11:31:05 <elliott> Sgeo: A Scheme implementation.
11:31:11 <elliott> ion: If I tell you the server, will you play Light?
11:31:11 <ion> sgeo: It has parentheses.
11:31:31 <elliott> ion: Hint: The server is telnet light.bitprayer.com.
11:31:56 <ion> elliott: I might as well try it later. I’m watching mitx-6.002 lectures at the moment and there’s a deadline for the homework.
11:33:59 <zzo38> Do you like to play as monster character in D&D game?
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11:34:23 <ion> Jim Florentine - Let Me Put My Brother On (Prank Call) http://youtu.be/2dy9lUJJGqI
11:37:40 <elliott> ion: Too busy for Crawl but not for YouTube? :P
11:39:53 <ion> elliott: I can do youtube for five minutes while eating something, crawl takes more time and more free hands. :-)
11:40:07 <elliott> You can probably play Crawl with one hand.
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13:07:10 <Sgeo> Why does Linden Labs prefix so many functions with the word Get
13:07:14 <Sgeo> Get this, get that
13:10:33 <fizzie> They, too, are trapped in the Java Bean factory.
13:11:39 -!- Gregor has set topic: ESOTERIC SPONGE CONTEST | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
13:26:35 <Taneb> Finally, Luigi has a purpose!
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14:10:06 <elliott> i had this great dream last night
14:10:09 <elliott> but i've forgotten most of it
14:15:43 -!- ion has set topic: ESOTERIC SPONGE PREGNANCY TEST | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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15:07:02 <itidus21> elliott: find a piece you can remember.. and it will link to more
15:07:28 <elliott> I don't remember more than a very few vague events; just images and the feel of it.
15:07:37 <elliott> I know it involved at least one foreign country.
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15:30:06 <itidus21> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/25/psychologists-replace-rorschach-tests-with-misheard-lyrics
15:31:49 <nortti> itidus21: that links doesn't work
15:32:20 <itidus21> i wrote a url knowing it didn't exist!
15:33:07 <itidus21> i once purjored myself that way
15:38:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I both want to know the details and am praying that I never do.
15:39:29 <itidus21> maybe you don't need to. i just need to learn to communicate
16:00:06 <Sgeo> The enemy has your lolly!
16:04:25 <itidus21> Then I need a hero who likes food. PacMan.
16:06:49 <itidus21> professor pacman: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f8/Profpacman.png
16:26:58 <Sgeo> The controls feel like crap
16:27:06 <Sgeo> I'm tempted to try America's Army like originally intended
16:28:16 <Sgeo> Because if I do, the brain control waves hidden in the game will force me to join the Army?
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16:32:38 <itidus21> propaganda isn't based on brain control waves
16:32:41 <Sgeo> `welcome KingOfKarlsruhe
16:32:49 <HackEgo> KingOfKarlsruhe: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:32:58 <Sgeo> Well, I promise not to join the Army, at any rate
16:33:11 <elliott> have i mentioned don't play america's army
16:33:53 <Sgeo> elliott, what will happen if I do
16:34:03 <Sgeo> KingOfKarlsruhe, that's lambdabot
16:34:49 <Sgeo> Bleh, I'd need to free up a lot of HD space
16:36:22 <Phantom_Hoover> and dont like having q and e mapped to lean right and left because it is the 90s and there is time for fps qwop
16:36:37 <Sgeo> I didn't even play with that
16:36:58 <Sgeo> I don't like an essential function for training being mapped to a non-existent key
16:37:06 <elliott> `pastlog and there is time for
16:37:41 <Sgeo> The mouse sensitivity needs to be tuned :/
16:37:46 <elliott> `pastlog there is time for
16:37:53 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I binded it to left Alt
16:38:02 <Sgeo> In the process losing the key for Look
16:38:04 <HackEgo> 2011-09-07.txt:03:14:55: -!- oerjan changed the topic of #esoteric to: It is the 90s and there is time for the requirements of supervision and control of transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, also an Esolang event @ Hel/Finland on 3.10.2011: https://wiki.helsinki.fi/display/lambda/esoteeriset+ohjelmointikielet | I think pointers are considerably more useful than lambda calculus | 12345678 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
16:38:04 <Phantom_Hoover> there are several pages of controls in each of like 5 sections
16:38:21 -!- elliott has set topic: It is the 90s and there is time for the requirements of supervision and control of transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, also an Esolang event @ Hel/Finland on 3.10.2011: https://wiki.helsinki.fi/display/lambda/esoteeriset+ohjelmointikielet | I think pointers are considerably more useful than lambda calculus | 12345678 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:38:35 <elliott> atehwa: How did that event go, by the way?
16:38:45 <Sgeo> I only just realized that that's not the word
16:39:07 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, wait, is right alt used for anything/
16:39:10 <Sgeo> I have a right alt key
16:39:33 <Phantom_Hoover> if you mash your face on the keyboard in arma 2 youll probably manage to start a nuclear war
16:41:30 <elliott> YOU EXPLODE YOU ACTUALLY *EXPLODE*
16:42:05 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, is look actually useful in games?
16:42:57 <Phantom_Hoover> but if you have to do a vehicle section i pity you, its like piloting a pig with 2 engines on fire
16:43:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what was the pig trap's slogan again
16:43:19 <elliott> ex piggia et scientia or something
16:43:34 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, does AA3 have vehicles? >.>
16:44:09 * Sgeo goes to install Urban Terror
16:45:00 <elliott> Y\O\U\ H\A\V\E\N\'\T\ E\X\P\L\O\D\E\D\ Y\E\T\
16:45:18 <Sgeo> elliott, go get Worms working at some point
16:45:22 <elliott> /B/U/T/ Y/O/U/ W/I/L/L/ /S/O/O/N
16:46:27 <Sgeo> Didn't realize there was something to ruin
16:46:35 <elliott> That line. It interrupted mine.
16:46:55 <Sgeo> Didn't realize there would be another line, and that there was supposed to be some sort of visual effect
16:46:58 <Sgeo> <elliott> Y\O\U\ H\A\V\E\N\'\T\ E\X\P\L\O\D\E\D\ Y\E\T\
16:47:01 <Sgeo> <elliott> /B/U/T/ Y/O/U/ W/I/L/L/ /S/O/O/N
16:47:05 <Sgeo> I don't get it
16:47:10 <elliott> It's not really a visual effect.
16:47:14 <elliott> They just belong together.
16:48:39 <ion> YBOUUT HYAOVUE NW'ITL LE XSPOLOON
16:49:01 <ion> I’l playing 6.002x
16:49:14 <elliott> telnet light.bitprayer.com
16:51:02 <elliott> such a boring combo!!! but ok
16:51:04 <Sgeo> What's light about it?
16:51:26 <Sgeo> Oh, so still full game
16:51:29 <elliott> aren't you going to adjust your skills
16:51:33 <Sgeo> Thought it would be some quick thing
16:51:41 <elliott> you can win in a few hours
16:51:59 <elliott> turn off fighting and dodging
16:52:24 <Sgeo> What's purple?
16:52:33 <elliott> it's scrolls that are probably bad
16:52:41 <elliott> also mutagenic corpses but light doesn't have eating so
16:52:59 <elliott> and prayer does nothing if you've already chopped a corpse...
16:53:14 <elliott> (additionally: you don't need to walk onto a corpse to sacrifice it in light)
16:53:30 <Sgeo> Did not know that about not needing to walk on it
16:53:52 <Sgeo> Why do apples exist?
16:54:19 <elliott> i don't like the permafood still existing thing
16:56:03 <Sgeo> Does teleport still have time before it actually takes effect?
16:57:56 <elliott> it will be fun if you get stat-drained
16:58:06 <Sgeo> Why is it that low?
16:59:26 <Sgeo> Is Trog fine with skeletized corpses?
16:59:44 <elliott> he's not fine with rotting corpses
17:00:23 <elliott> henzell is more useful than xv
17:00:31 <Sgeo> She can't cast in silence right?
17:00:52 <elliott> just chokepoint and bash her
17:01:54 <elliott> bad stuff that gives you mutations if it gets too high
17:01:59 <elliott> so you can't spam spells/invocations too much
17:03:36 <elliott> why did you add the zig to your shopping list
17:03:53 <Sgeo> I think o automatically enters shops or something
17:04:04 <elliott> i'm not sure what's confusing
17:04:12 <Sgeo> Why it was offering me a ziggurat
17:06:14 <elliott> you didn't even reach the pandoora
17:06:20 <elliott> do you give games less time than you give languages
17:06:54 <Sgeo> >.> I might be in that habit
17:07:01 <Sgeo> I do intend to go through SICP
17:08:25 <elliott> i have doubts in your patience
17:09:00 <Sgeo> >.> that's a fear
17:11:47 <elliott> Sgeo: you could at least splat the thing
17:14:51 <itidus21> the odds of me doing sicp are so small that the idea of me doing it first is not cause for concern
17:15:11 <ion> A star vs. a black hole, the length is 139 days. http://i.minus.com/ibovF0KvyEZmtl.gif
17:17:52 <ion> I’m rooting for the black hole.
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18:20:32 <BlueProtoman> I'm trying to write a Brainfuck interpreter. I've got my code here for seeing if the []'s are balanced http://ideone.com/S6Td2 , but it doesn't seem to work. I stepped through it on my own, with drawings and everything, and it worked fine. Any tips
18:21:57 <elliott> are you just trying to check if they're balanced, or build a table of some kind while you're doing so?
18:22:30 <BlueProtoman> A table that records brace pairs so I can easily jump around.
18:22:56 <elliott> what problems are you seeing exactly?
18:23:35 <elliott> perhaps brace_table is insufficiently large
18:24:07 <elliott> well, how do you declare brace_table?
18:24:51 <BlueProtoman> std::unordered_map<int64_t, int64_t> brace_table;
18:25:14 <BlueProtoman> I use unordered_map because that's got constant lookup, while map doesn't.
18:25:28 <elliott> but non-constant insert :)
18:25:51 <elliott> have you tried stepping through in gdb? I'd guess it's some other code you have that's causing the segfault, because I can't see how this would
18:25:53 <BlueProtoman> Right, but I'm doing more lookups than insertions.
18:25:58 <fizzie> How about that thing, you know that thing. A gruddebe? No, that's not it. A grudbug. Oh, right, a debugger!
18:26:24 <fizzie> elliott: Yeah, I was trying to invent more misspellings.
18:26:51 <shachaf> elliott: You said it first but fizzie said it better.
18:26:53 <BlueProtoman> Also, I don't quite know how to run a program through gdb. I.e. launch gdb first, then my program.
18:27:05 <shachaf> BlueProtoman: You should learn to use gdb!
18:27:12 <elliott> BlueProtoman: gdb ./program
18:27:16 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `hi'Not in scope: `program'
18:27:55 <BlueProtoman> shachaf: I do use it through Code::Blocks, but I don't really know how to use it on the command line. I don't know how to have Code::Blocks pass arguments to my program. With no args, my interpreter just shows a help screen.
18:28:13 <shachaf> elliott: whoa, dude, start
18:28:26 <elliott> gdb can also take args on the command-line i think but
18:28:35 <shachaf> Yes, with gdb --args ./program a b c d
18:28:35 <fizzie> gdb --args ./program a b c d, or some-such.
18:29:12 <BlueProtoman> OK, but now I need to figure out how to use the important utilities.
18:29:27 <BlueProtoman> This summer I need to spend my time before college starts learning things like make or gdb.
18:29:42 <shachaf> elliott: gdb is ~2 million lines of code.
18:29:49 <shachaf> So that's 20,000 useful lines?
18:30:00 <elliott> shachaf: Sounds like an overestimation to me.
18:30:49 <shachaf> Also gdb has some useful features that (presumably) take a lot of code to implement.
18:31:11 <shachaf> BlueProtoman: Did you know gdb could do that?
18:31:17 <elliott> I use printf debugging whenever possible.
18:31:33 <elliott> The nice thing about REPLs is that they're basically printf debugging automators.
18:32:02 <lambdabot> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8731782/whats-a-repl-process-and-what-can-i-use-it-for
18:32:02 <lambdabot> Title: node.js - What's a REPL process and what can I use it for? - Stack Overflow
18:32:06 <elliott> BlueProtoman: Read-eval-print-loop.
18:32:14 <elliott> Don't click that Stack Overflow link. Nothing with node.js in the title can be good news.
18:32:19 <elliott> BlueProtoman: Have you used Python or Ruby?
18:32:24 <shachaf> @google why node.js is stupid
18:32:27 <lambdabot> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e1zzna-dNw
18:32:28 <BlueProtoman> elliott: I've dabbled in Python, Ruby not really.
18:32:33 <elliott> BlueProtoman: You know the Python console?
18:32:39 <elliott> BlueProtoman: That's a REPL.
18:32:46 <elliott> It reads an expression, evaluates it, prints the result, and loops back again.
18:33:03 <BlueProtoman> Does it allow normal program flow if placed inside a program?
18:33:37 <elliott> Can you clarify? I'm not sure I understand.
18:34:05 <elliott> shachaf: I forgot about that video. :(
18:34:36 <elliott> Gregor: You should watch that video. It's terrible.
18:35:22 <BlueProtoman> elliott: Like, could I insert a REPL into my Brainfuck interpreter and NOT have it affect it running, aside from extra junk being put on-screen?
18:35:46 <elliott> BlueProtoman: Well, a REPL is a development tool, really, separate from running complete programs.
18:36:07 <elliott> But you could have a REPL where you can feed it a whole program and it'd work fine, sure.
18:36:44 <elliott> gdb is like a REPL except it's attached to a running program that you step through.
18:36:50 <elliott> And also you can't actually evaluate arbitrary expressions.
18:37:00 <elliott> So it's not really like a REPL. But there are similarities :)
18:37:07 <shachaf> elliott: I haven't watched it.
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19:04:26 <BlueProtoman> I now know how to access the braces properly. Fine.
19:05:04 <BlueProtoman> But now when Brain Drain (as I call the interpreter) runs through the BF program, it doesn't output anything even though the BF program has "." instructions.
19:06:15 <BlueProtoman> I catch all the exceptions that both std::string and std::unordered_map throw, and they mostly consist of vector::_M_range_check, with the occasional _Map_base::at
19:07:10 <BlueProtoman> And I use unordered_map.at() rather than unordered_map[] so I don't create new elements.
19:08:31 <shachaf> BlueProtoman: I recommend taking elliott's advice.
19:08:41 <shachaf> Take your printfshaker and sprinkle some printfs throughout the program.
19:09:03 <coppro> how big is the interpreter?
19:09:04 <BlueProtoman> Particularly in my instructions, which come as void function objects.
19:09:48 <BlueProtoman> coppro: Lemme put it on IDEone. See, I plan on adding several Brainfuck dialects, and each one will come as a class.
19:11:06 <BlueProtoman> When I put cout's in my BF instructions, I get nothing. I DO know that the program is looping with the braces, though.
19:12:16 <coppro> I think your regex is wrong
19:13:07 <BlueProtoman> coppro: My regex is somewhat correct (it compiles, but doesn't match anything), but that's not my concern right now.
19:13:37 <coppro> BlueProtoman: ok, well, it doesn't match because the early ] kills it
19:13:42 <coppro> your character class ends partway through
19:13:51 <BlueProtoman> coppro: I don't know how to match individual []'s, though.
19:14:02 <coppro> BlueProtoman: [ can be matched safely inside a class
19:14:12 <coppro> and ] can be matched safely outside of one
19:14:18 <coppro> it needs to be first or las
19:14:24 <coppro> *or last, or else it will be a character range
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19:15:30 <coppro> oh, ] can also be safely matched first
19:15:43 <coppro> []fo] matches ']', 'f', or 'o'
19:16:23 <BlueProtoman> This is mine, with your changes; [^><+.,[\]@$!}{~^&|-]
19:16:33 <BlueProtoman> f++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++The Rain in Spain is Falling on the Plane..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
19:16:45 <nortti> I have installed working c compiler to my bot at #esoteric-en. first one to destroy my chroot gets ops
19:16:53 <coppro> you can't just escape a ]
19:17:05 <coppro> backslashes are meaningless inside classes
19:17:29 <coppro> you have to do [^][><+.,@$!{}~^&|-]
19:18:28 <BlueProtoman> coppro: It works! Thanks! Now to actually get the program itself working.
19:18:40 <coppro> make sure to flush cout
19:19:15 <coppro> cout is buffered output
19:19:24 <coppro> it doesn't instantly print everything you stream to it
19:19:29 <coppro> you have to flush it to make it actually happen
19:19:39 <coppro> endl flushes automatically
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19:21:51 <BlueProtoman> coppro: OK, I cout.flush() whenever I hit a "." instruction, but I still see nothing.
19:26:49 <oerjan> always flush regularly. or was that floss regularly.
19:27:41 <BlueProtoman> I still don't quite understand what a buffer is or what flushing is.
19:29:58 <oerjan> afaik: communicating between processes is somewhat expensive, therefore file/stream io tends to try not to send just one character at a time, but instead save it in a buffer to be sent all at once. this can be set to happen either when the buffer is full, when a newline is output, or on each character (when you really need it).
19:30:37 <elliott> It's syscalls that are expensive, really
19:31:32 <oerjan> also perhaps cache synchronization, no?
19:32:14 <BlueProtoman> If that's the case, why does std::cout << "France"; work
19:32:34 <kmc> yes, even when processes communicate through shared memory and use lockless data structures, there is no free lunch
19:32:49 <kmc> BlueProtoman: stdout is typically line-buffered if it's a terminal
19:33:29 <BlueProtoman> kmc: In that case, why should I flush often if we're using a terminal? Hell, what else could stdout go to?
19:33:45 <kmc> BlueProtoman: you could redirect stdout to a file, or pipe it to another process
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19:34:03 <elliott> BlueProtoman: because it won't flush until you write a newline
19:34:09 <BlueProtoman> kmc: So I could redirect stdout to LibreOffice if I wanted to?
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19:34:19 <kmc> on UNIX anyway, stdout is just file descriptor 1, and that could be opened to any kind of file
19:34:22 <elliott> if libreoffice supported that, sure
19:34:29 <elliott> unix is all about connecting stdout and stdin to places
19:34:29 <kmc> BlueProtoman: sure, but those programs typically don't accept input on standard input
19:34:33 <kmc> why don't you read about unix pipes
19:35:23 <kmc> libreoffice is a gui program with gui dialogs for opening files and such
19:35:30 <kmc> that's where it gets its input
19:35:34 <kmc> not by reading std::cin
19:36:04 <kmc> i'm so confused
19:36:19 <ais523> <elliott> It's syscalls that are expensive, really <-- right, shared memory and non-contended futexes are both pretty cheap, as neither gets the kernel involved
19:36:27 <kmc> i think rather than flushing repeatedly, you can just put std::cout into an unbuffered mode
19:36:31 <kmc> but i don't remember how
19:37:11 <elliott> it's like feather, but different
19:37:15 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Feather
19:37:23 <kmc> BlueProtoman: as to your original question, try something like: std::cout << "foo"; sleep(2); std::cout << " bar\n";
19:37:34 <kmc> you won't see foo 2 seconds before bar
19:37:37 <kmc> because of line buffering
19:37:39 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: @ is elliott's vaporware os design
19:37:52 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: arr more part where yarr
19:37:53 <Sgeo> The suckiest part of World of Padman is the players
19:38:02 <Sgeo> They don't seem to know how to play capture the flag
19:39:04 <oerjan> elliott: just solidly challenged, right?
19:39:51 <kmc> naive use of shared memory is pretty cheap for 2-4 threads but if you're trying to scale up to a 48 core machine, you hit a wall pretty quickly
19:40:09 <oerjan> http://www.mezzacotta.net/owls/ is very meta today
19:40:41 <BlueProtoman> kmc: OK. Now, what I don't get is how this helps me understand why my BF interpreter gives me no output. Especially since I just switched to putchar.
19:40:43 <kmc> then you need to think about cache lines bouncing between cores, efficient use of memory barriers, NUMA
19:41:04 <elliott> BlueProtoman: it doesn't :P
19:41:06 <kmc> BlueProtoman: if it's a buffering problem you should get all the output when the program quits
19:41:07 <elliott> putchar buffers too though
19:41:27 <BlueProtoman> elliott: Except that there might be a need for input beforehand. BF allows input.
19:41:49 <kmc> coppro: you can also do [><+.,@$!{}~^&|-^] no?
19:42:42 <BlueProtoman> There must be a problem with how I'm calling my function objects.
19:42:56 <BlueProtoman> Placing std::cout << "France" << std::endl in them does nothing.
19:43:14 <kmc> maybe your code isn't getting called at all
19:43:33 <kmc> btw, cerr is useful for debugging as it's unbuffered
19:45:25 <kmc> you could use debugger breakpoints to see if your code is getting called
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19:46:01 <Taneb> Am I allowed to call myself a published software author now?
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19:48:26 <BlueProtoman> kmc: This is my Brainfuck.cpp. At the bottom, I call my code with run(), which calls nextInstruction() on each character. http://ideone.com/8EjGf
19:51:55 <kmc> you could use debugger breakpoints to see if your code is getting called
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19:53:43 <fizzie> It's probably not related, but the run() looks very dubious. It will call nextInstruction() as many times as there are characters in the program, but (if there are loops) that's probably not the right amount of steps to execute.
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20:12:06 <zzo38> Go the store, and buy some more. You will need to open the purple door. -- Super ASCII MZX Town
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20:18:53 <zzo38> Make up QR-GAME which consists of a QR code of a binary code of a computer game for some virtual machine or emulator
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20:19:18 <zzo38> nortti: Why do you keep changing your name?
20:19:52 <nortti> zzo38: I test !msg and !readmsg commands in my ircbot
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20:55:17 <Sgeo> Church of Bitcoin?
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21:02:11 <zzo38> Edward Kmett said that discardable functors are the same as representable functors, and representable functors are isomorphic to ((->) x) for some x. I can prove that all discardable monads are idempotent applicatives, but since they are representable and therefore isomorphic to ((->) x) they are all monads and therefore all idempotent as well.
21:04:09 <zzo38> However, there are idempotent applicatives which are not discardable/representable, such as: ZipList, ((,) x) for some idempotent monoid x, Maybe, (Either x), (Const x) for some idempotent monoid x
21:04:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120420145725]).
21:04:37 <Taneb> What does idempotent mean?
21:05:17 <zzo38> Idempotent monoid means mappend x x = x and idempotent applicative means x *> x = x
21:05:38 <kmc> idempotent in general means "if you apply it twice, it's the same as applying it once"
21:05:55 <Taneb> And discardable and representable in this context?
21:06:59 <zzo38> Taneb: Discardable functor means x <$ y = x <$ z and representable means isomorphic to ((->) x) for some x
21:07:36 <zzo38> Identity is isomorphic to ((->) ()) and Finalize is isomorphic to ((->) Zero)
21:10:19 <zzo38> Is (\f x y -> (f x -> f y)) a Arrow if and only if f is idempotent applicative? I don't know but I guessed
21:12:15 <zzo38> x *> x = x >> x = join (x <$ x) = join (x <$ return y) = join (return x) = (join . return) x = id x = x
21:12:17 <Taneb> ...is Proxy an idempotent applicative?
21:12:46 <zzo38> Taneb: I think Proxy is equivalent to Finalize, so it is
21:13:05 <zzo38> (Note in proof given: This assumes it is discardable, so (x <$ x) = (x <$ y) for any y)
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21:50:43 <zzo38> There are two campaign rules I like (which are default in Icosahedral RPG, but I like to use them in Dungeons&Dragons as well): * Any dead creature is considered to age twice as fast while dead for the purpose of resurrection increasing your age more. * Alignment entry for kinds of creatures does not describe what is most likely (with a few exceptions) but instead describes what people (especially if superstitious) tend to believe.
21:50:56 <zzo38> Exceptions = angels, devils, demons, normal animals/vermins, unintelligent undead, and uniques.
21:57:05 <HackEgo> oonbotti: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:57:37 * oerjan has a hunch that might mean "o is a bot"
21:58:23 <nortti_> oonbotti=olen botti=I am bot
21:59:18 <zzo38> (Other than the given exceptions, any random individual of some kind can be just as likely to be of any alignment; confirmation bias may cause people to persist in their fallacious beliefs.)
21:59:43 <zzo38> I think these two campaign rules make the game more interesting
22:00:04 <nortti_> !rawirc PRIVMSG #esoteric Maybe I should make command for this
22:00:05 <oerjan> oh oon is slang for olen?
22:00:20 <zzo38> nortti_: You forgot the colon
22:00:27 <nortti_> !rawirc PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should make command for this
22:00:28 <oonbotti> Maybe I should make command for this
22:01:23 <oerjan> sorry, slang ain't gonna make it 'round here
22:02:50 <oonbotti> #include <stdio.h>\nint main() {char a[12]; a[0]='H'; a[1]='e'; a[2]='l'; a[3]='l'; a[4]='o'; a[5]=' '; a[6]='w'; a[7]='o'; a[8]='r'; a[9]='l'; a[10]='d'; a[11]=0; puts(a); }
22:02:54 <oonbotti> >>[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[
22:04:18 <zzo38> I suggest you could just send message directly to oonbotti
22:04:37 <zzo38> Or you could have "oonbotti: " prefix for commands written to the channel
22:05:08 -!- oonbotti has left.
22:05:39 <nortti_> oh well. I 'lljust keep it on #esoteric-en
22:06:34 <oerjan> if the default is finnish, then #esoteric-en means _not_ esoteric, right?
22:06:49 <ais523> oerjan: no, #esoteric-en means /not finnish/
22:06:55 <ais523> all languages but finnish are acceptable there, though
22:07:38 <oerjan> ais523: that was a lousy attempt at a pun with finnish.
22:08:57 <oerjan> fi:en = en:i don't, or something like that
22:09:37 <ais523> when #esoteric-en was in the topic, though, the rule was that it was for all languages but Finnish
22:09:47 <ais523> actually enforced in #esoteric-en :)
22:09:54 <ais523> (not sure how many people actually joined it)
22:10:08 * oerjan suddenly wonders why it's fi rather than su
22:10:09 <nortti_> Ii never saw anyone other there than Sgeo
22:11:03 <nortti_> and I was there almost all the time
22:11:43 <zzo38> Do you like the rules of Icosahedral RPG?
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22:13:10 <Gregor> Is this topic some kind of Markov nightmare of all the topics from the past year?
22:14:12 <nortti_> by the way !cc on oonbotti was actually c2bf
22:15:34 <nortti_> it is the ISC licensed version with my libc and cpp added on wrapper script
22:17:26 <Gregor> Is that available somewhere yet?
22:18:36 <oerjan> `pastlog transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, also
22:18:41 <nortti_> no yet. I still don't really understand how git works
22:18:53 <HackEgo> 2011-09-13.txt:23:10:28: -!- oerjan changed the topic of #esoteric to: Freudian armchair psycho-babble | It is the 90s and there is time for the requirements of supervision and control of transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, also an Esolang event @ Hel/Finland on 3.10.2011: https://wiki.helsinki.fi/display/lambda/esoteeriset+ohjelmointikielet | god bless haskell america | 12345678!& | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
22:19:32 <Gregor> oerjan: Yes, that was my point ...
22:19:37 <oerjan> Gregor: i think it may be a straight rerun of one from earlier
22:20:04 <nortti_> Gregor: it was "fun" to edit copyright notices in all of the files
22:22:34 <Gregor> nortti_: YOU'RE WELCOME
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23:13:40 <zzo38> Can you make the Free Geeks GameBoy game?
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03:18:04 <zzo38> Pointers may be more useful than lambda calculus for some things; for other things, lambda calculus may be more useful. Isn't it?
03:19:11 <kmc> no pointers are Awesome™ and lambda calculus gives you bad breath
03:21:37 <zzo38> Have you ever seen the Kaiji anime/manga?
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03:33:46 <madbr> how many actual programs use lambda calculus?
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04:01:45 <zzo38> Free (CoYoneda f) is always a monad regardless of f, and f can be a GADT of actions, and you can make the monad of the actions to perform, which can also allow the actions to be manipulated. The f could also be a class wrapper: data X :: * -> * where { X :: XC x y => x -> X y; }; class Typeable x => XC x y | x -> y where { ... };
04:17:52 <kmc> if your preferred natural language doesn't use the Latin alphabet, what keyboard layout do you use when coding? US QWERTY?
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06:32:21 <zzo38> Do you watch Kaiji?
06:32:30 <zzo38> Do you watch Kaiji or Akagi?
06:36:10 <zzo38> Yes. I watch Kaiji and I read the Akagi manga
06:36:26 <monqy> do you watch Akagi and read the Kaiji manga?
06:36:27 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 9 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
06:38:20 <zzo38> Kaiji and Akagi are both very excellent manga written by Fukumoto, although his drawing is bad (he admits this).
06:38:34 <shachaf> Do you read it in Japanese or in Canadian?
06:39:25 <pikhq_> Shame there's not a zzo translation.
06:49:59 <zzo38> They are in Japanese.
06:50:29 <zzo38> Although I watch the Kaiji anime with English subtitles
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07:13:05 <zzo38> Even though Set cannot be made instance of Monad, a type can be made for the Kleisli category of Set and make the Category instance for that.
07:15:54 <zzo38> Do you like the variant campaign rules for Dungeons&Dragons game and Icosahedral RPG, that I have made?
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09:50:35 <nortti> yay. got forth interpeter in my ircbot
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10:09:41 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
10:09:55 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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10:26:18 <oonbotti> #echo, #welcome, #cat, #ls, #rm, #writefile, #cc, #exec, #msg, #readmsg, #forth, #loadforth
10:26:50 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET RESET + DROP SWAP DUP NIP OVER >R * - / . R@ R> MOD
10:26:55 <oonbotti> ERROR:word 'FORGET' cannot be forgotten
10:27:03 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET RESET DROP SWAP DUP NIP OVER >R * - / . R@ R> MOD
10:27:12 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET RESET DROP SWAP DUP NIP OVER >R * - / . R@ R> MOD
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10:41:45 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET + DROP SWAP DUP NIP OVER >R * - / . R@ R> MOD
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10:46:35 -!- nortti has set topic: It is the 90s and there is time for the requirements of supervision and control of transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, also an Esolang event @ Hell/Finland on 3.10.2011: https://wiki.helsinki.fi/display/lambda/esoteeriset+ohjelmointikielet | I think pointers are considerably more useful than lambda calculus | 12345678 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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13:18:48 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
13:19:09 <nortti> elliott: new command char is #
13:19:23 <oonbotti> bfi.py \ botcmd.py \ botcmd.pyc \ ircbot.py \ msgs.txt \ replacecmd.sh \ sforth.py \ sforth.pyc \ tmpdata \ userdata \
13:19:35 <Gregor> #shell cat /etc/passwd
13:19:45 <nortti> #shell rm replacecmd.sh
13:19:52 <oonbotti> bfi.py \ botcmd.py \ botcmd.pyc \ ircbot.py \ msgs.txt \ sforth.py \ sforth.pyc \ tmpdata \ userdata \
13:19:53 <elliott> 22:10:09: <nortti_> Ii never saw anyone other there than Sgeo
13:19:58 <elliott> nortti: i joined it first.
13:20:10 <elliott> #shell for i in a b c; echo $i; done
13:20:17 <Gregor> elliott: I declared it, that makes it MY channel ;)
13:20:31 <elliott> i was considering registering it
13:20:44 <nortti> elliott: when did you join it?
13:20:50 <elliott> 03:33:46: <madbr> how many actual programs use lambda calculus?
13:20:56 <elliott> nortti: right after it was added to the topic
13:21:44 <nortti> I joined it 17th May 16:57:15 and there was no one there.
13:22:11 <nortti> oh wait. yes there was. I didn't notice you
13:23:49 <nortti> for a long time Sgeo was there but after some time I was left as the only one there
13:27:58 <nortti> elliott: my shell doesn't suck. It is undocumented feauture of my bot and it requires that you are in oonbotti's .botops file
13:28:11 <oonbotti> #echo, #welcome, #cat, #ls, #rm, #writefile, #cc, #exec, #msg, #readmsg, #forth, #loadforth
13:28:42 <nortti> elliott: also, #forth has alias %
13:29:35 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Jumping_to_-1_is_exciting
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13:30:13 <elliott> ok, someone called Bfucker has created two brainfuck derivatives in two days
13:31:09 <nortti> elliott: it seems blahbot also reserves !
13:31:47 <nortti> or is % just a prefix and not jumping to -1 is exciting command
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13:37:21 <nortti> also only words >R R@ R> - * / MOD : ; are written in python. everything else is written in forth
13:37:24 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET + DROP SWAP DUP NIP OVER >R * - / . R@ R> MOD
13:37:39 <nortti> oh and forget is also written in python
13:37:52 <elliott> nortti: % was the prefix it used
13:37:57 <elliott> it had other commands too :P
13:38:05 <elliott> $42 is how much I paid for it
13:38:28 <nortti> elliott remember to put space between $ and 42
13:38:55 <elliott> I was deliberately omitting it so I had the chance to possibly complain about your new prefix :P
13:40:19 <nortti> I also thought using * as prefix and make bot complain if command was not found but then i rememberd what it is used for
13:42:21 <nortti> elliott: also if it wouldn't need space between $ and words to execute there would be even more annoyance
13:44:07 <elliott> botte will theoretically use . as a prefix
13:44:15 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET OVER >R * - / . R@ R> MOD
13:45:25 <nortti> $ : swap over >r >r drop r> r> ;
13:46:31 <nortti> that is how these words are implemented in my forth interpreter
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13:47:50 <nortti> If I remember correctly I could also implement OVER in forth but I don't really see how if I don't have swap
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15:08:43 <nooga> WHY DOES OTOOL OUTPUT AT&T ASSEMBLER SYNTAX ;C
15:09:20 <Gregor> Because all the associated tools INPUT AT&T assembler syntax?
15:09:36 <nooga> but even stupid gdb has an option for that
15:10:28 <nooga> + apple's gdb is too old or too stupid to understand disas \m and \r options that i need
15:11:21 <elliott> the solution starts with l and ends with inux
15:11:31 <elliott> or starts with bsd and ends with the null string
15:12:03 <nortti> or maybe it starts with m and ends with inix?
15:12:17 <Gregor> elliott: Actually it ends with "BSD" and starts with a variety of other words.
15:12:35 <elliott> i was considering saying that
15:12:46 <elliott> nothing starts with m and ends with inix other than suffering
15:12:49 <nooga> i could just build binutils on OS X
15:13:11 <Gregor> nooga: And then enjoy it not being able to meaningfully handle any of the native binaries?
15:13:44 <nooga> i'd rather write a ruby script to crunch otool's output
15:14:00 <nortti> elliott: 1.5 runs on my old machines, 2 is fast and requires minimal amount of memory and 3 is pretty stable
15:14:03 <elliott> suffering also starts with r and ends with uby
15:14:11 <elliott> nortti: thanks for this information
15:14:18 <nortti> elliott: ruby on minix!
15:14:39 <elliott> nooga: i don't know why suffering exists
15:14:58 <nooga> but why it starts with r and ends with uby?
15:15:23 <nortti> elliott: also why do you think that suffering starts with m and ends with minix
15:15:28 <elliott> nooga: well you're about to find that out for yourself
15:16:17 <nooga> i code ruby for at least 3 years and still didn't notice anything
15:16:41 <elliott> then there may be a bigger problem
15:17:05 <elliott> sometimes people start with s and end with uffering
15:17:07 <nooga> even though it's quite slow
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15:33:55 <Gregor> elliott: Sergei von Uffering?
15:46:45 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ maketext \ monqy \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
15:47:02 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access monqy/: Not a directory
15:48:03 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
15:49:11 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access karma/: Not a directory
15:50:03 <nortti> `run cat karma | pastelogs
15:50:14 <nortti> `run cat karma | paste
15:50:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10030
15:50:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28886
15:54:03 <elliott> the karma thing is broken because gregor is terible
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16:14:17 <elliott> oh wait i think I fixed `karma
16:14:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ++: not found
16:14:46 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.11427
16:14:56 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12049
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16:21:19 <HackEgo> Guest28135: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:22:19 <nortti> who are you and what has taken you here?
16:24:14 <elliott> we'ere lots of friends here
16:24:17 <nortti> do you know anything about esoteric programming languages?
16:24:17 <elliott> practically a friend party
16:25:24 <elliott> (texas is a country in the south pacific)
16:25:29 <nortti> Guest28135: 14/m/Finland
16:25:43 <elliott> its like 47 in human years or something
16:25:45 <olsner> elliott: no, texas is austria
16:26:18 <nortti> olsner: by the way are the kangaroos moved there yet
16:27:16 <olsner> nortti: not sure, ask Gregor
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16:40:44 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:46:59 <Vorpal> elliott, know any good Forth tutorials?
16:47:28 <Vorpal> Can you please recommend one perhaps?
16:47:46 <elliott> i dont remenmber the ones i know
16:50:06 <olsner> how can you know about them if you don't remember them?
16:50:42 <elliott> olsner: i know how but i don't remember how
16:57:28 <olsner> I should learn forth some time
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17:22:03 <nortti> Vorpal: statring forth
17:23:03 <nortti> and you can use oonbotti's interactive forth interpreter
17:23:13 <elliott> isn't thinking forth better
17:23:43 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:23:51 <nooga> fuck otool -> http://pastie.org/3972547
17:24:24 <Taneb> I'm gonna start a Dwarf Fortress over an aquifer
17:24:44 <elliott> Taneb: are you termcasting it
17:24:56 <nooga> nortti: i've added machine code to the output
17:24:57 <elliott> im watching monqy play twice at once
17:25:16 <nooga> and some colors (visible only in terminal)
17:25:19 <nortti> nooga: to what output?
17:25:37 <elliott> monqy: nice giant newt dying
17:25:47 <nooga> and now just a small function left to translate at&t into intel syntax
17:25:59 <nooga> nortti: to the otool's output of course
17:26:40 <nortti> Taneb: when do you start termcasting?
17:27:07 <nooga> what is this with starting over an aquifier?
17:27:17 <nooga> i've never done that because i was afraid
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17:28:30 <olsner> nooga: why is there no bindump on your platform?
17:28:54 <olsner> hmm, I think I mean objdump
17:29:28 <olsner> whatever... you know, that tool that already does all that stuff you want
17:29:59 <nooga> olsner: OS X has shitty thing called otool instead
17:30:04 <ais523> objdump does sound like the right tool for the job
17:30:14 <nooga> and binutils are not very good with handling native binaries
17:30:41 <nooga> huh, i know about objdump guys... i'd used it if i could
17:32:23 <olsner> huh, you already know about it? then why aren't you using it!
17:33:34 <olsner> feels like the correct solution to this problem is finishing the binutils port for mac
17:33:55 <Taneb> Fortress name, anyone?
17:34:50 <olsner> Taneb: call it "TANEBS FORTRESS"
17:35:03 <Taneb> olsner, I'm afraid I can't do that
17:35:22 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask.
17:35:39 <HackEgo> :s.6p[.o@5|36aylMߋUϧ9Wg{T;%m.(9R)d9o=KXAКzbwdhFeo~...&rGhϡDJl穬 ).g\.5^s.(..j.v6I!bt.YX{?....mT.)X*K../@..ȞF@s.....v!...N2..E.F..w~CF<..zl*.̠ڡ^!}.>.Cț.nw+[. \ 浒#(.l.A..5;Mz..H[3Z'GyT?.ξ].+1.f3?Ѫ.|)ua!2s)I
17:35:50 <nortti> he is not null terminated
17:35:59 <HackEgo> \.Vu`|pF^&L\ǂ>.;.J./թfZDnċ.="5WsTWW(P34%|_ \ vң.iQ\1.vl&.QS%퍽)#rPb.s.S\8n.UH뤈.皦 o<`7{h3<<^֍c-N..|Rӝ?1v9h9s./yA!]A8v$=>.Zu.؝Pq._C?>.qf.YۓфPSBc|_9Jǩ..a.ָ8li.Mxo \ ..f&..Y.H6W0.7. .O䠖Y..
17:36:05 <elliott> btw people watching the termcast
17:36:41 <Taneb> (80x25 is default for DF)
17:37:13 <Taneb> Beeseizures of Doom
17:37:27 <madbr> type x*y into google
17:37:33 <nortti> good thing anything really gets bigger than my 160x30 terminal
17:38:04 <elliott> Taneb: did that really say oklo
17:40:17 <Taneb> I thought aquifers were more wet
17:40:30 <elliott> Taneb: what happens is when you dig the rock goes all bade.
17:40:33 <elliott> check the wiki for informatione
17:40:43 <elliott> you don't jsut want to dig down
17:41:28 <madbr> wonder where 80x25 comes from
17:41:57 <elliott> or rather ibm pc in general
17:42:15 <madbr> weren't there some other terminals that had that amount of chars before?
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17:42:49 <olsner> the width of 80 comes from the size of punch cards, which was based on the size of late-19th century american dollars, iirc
17:43:21 <madbr> yeah vt100 had 80x24 chars
17:45:05 <madbr> that's probably where the pc's 80x25 comes from
17:45:43 <madbr> that and probably various signal timing considerations :D
17:48:09 <elliott> if not yuo're fortress will probably die
17:48:21 <Taneb> My fortress will probably die anyway
17:48:26 <Taneb> This is Dwarf Fortress
17:50:11 <elliott> for values of probably equal to certainly
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18:01:56 <ais523> hmm, 320x224 used to be a very common screen res because it was easy to get it out of a standard TV
18:03:02 <madbrr> that's because the real tv resolution is 240 lines (from 262.5 if you count HBlank), but TVs overscan for some retarded reason so you only get about 224
18:03:21 <madbrr> so they decided to not make any content for those extra lines over 224 :D
18:05:13 -!- Guest28135 has changed nick to Mike.
18:05:43 -!- Mike has changed nick to Guest86467.
18:06:01 <ais523> Guest86467: you can't use a name reserved by someone else, try a different name
18:07:16 -!- Guest86467 has changed nick to Guestxxxxx.
18:09:31 <ais523> Gregor: has to be six Xs, and they have to be capital
18:09:50 <Gregor> ais523: THANK YOU FOR EXAMINING MY JOKE, CAPTAIN PEDANTRY.
18:09:52 * ais523 thinks that that's a somewhat weird restriction
18:10:10 <madbrr> (also for SNES, 16 extra lines of vblank is nice)
18:10:44 <madbrr> (and saving 16 lines of fillrate on psx is also nice :D )
18:13:05 <ion> ais523: In *your* system’s definition of mkstemp, sure. :-P
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18:16:31 <HackEgo> 825) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes
18:20:30 <lambdabot> http://www.zooborns.com/zooborns/2009/07/darmstadt-zoo-germany-coati-babies.html
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19:11:13 <elliott> you get to tell them about preview
19:11:36 <oerjan> how sad that they will never know
19:12:46 <elliott> ais523: you get to tell them about preview
19:13:39 <ais523> I missed that one of my RC entries was actually 22 condensed
19:13:59 <ais523> see, everyone else should use RSS recent changes too, avoids the problem neatly :)
19:17:54 <ais523> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120525/04185919074/tv-networks-file-legal-claims-saying-skipping-commercials-is-copyright-infringement.shtml
19:18:10 <ion> KMines’ clock seems to wrap around hourly.
19:18:32 <elliott> ais523: how horrible is dgamelaunch
19:18:43 <ais523> slightly less horrible than "horrible"
19:18:55 <elliott> how easy is it to set up :P
19:19:01 <ais523> if you know how to set it up already, it's easy
19:19:02 <elliott> (also, how much system load does it drain?)
19:19:06 <ais523> if not, I recommend finding instructions somewhere
19:19:12 <elliott> (rephrase: would it slow the wiki down)
19:19:31 <elliott> i could just write my own server but ehhh
19:19:40 <ais523> dgl itself doesn't put a huge amount of load on the server
19:19:44 <ais523> things it's running might do
19:20:11 <ais523> it'll put a higher load on if things produce a lot of output, because of trying to record it
19:20:31 <elliott> maybe i'll disable autoexplore :P
19:25:45 <elliott> ais523: would asking you questions about dgamelaunch be productive?
19:26:09 <ais523> elliott: sadly, the person I find most knowledgeable about dgl at the moment is kerio
19:26:16 <ais523> I'd probably refer questions to him
19:26:24 <ais523> (or paxed, who's the current maintainer, but is typically very busy)
19:26:33 <elliott> that way you get all the suffering
19:26:57 <elliott> my question is: is dgamelaunch protocol-agnostic, i.e. can I run it behind anything that can start a remote process, or does it hook into telnet/ssh specially?
19:27:13 <ais523> oh, I think I know that one, you configure telnet/ssh to run it
19:27:29 <elliott> so I should be able to get it to run behind mosh, then
19:27:45 <elliott> monqy: imagine a server that lets you know when you're lagging instead of having to mash an invalid key!!!
19:29:09 <elliott> i don't think monqy is imagining hard enough
19:32:16 <elliott> monqy: fire storm "considered op in light"
19:32:27 <monqy> it's op in regular crawl too
19:32:42 <elliott> nicer range in light though
19:32:59 <elliott> monqy: it's ok i'll imagine it without you
19:34:26 <elliott> kmc: is it possible to adjust how long mosh waits before complaining about lag
19:37:28 <kmc> only by editing the source code
19:38:04 <elliott> how long does it normally wait?
19:38:57 <kmc> don't remember
19:39:01 <kmc> like 10s or so
19:39:47 <kmc> go ahead and change it
19:39:55 <kmc> but note that the default heartbeat interval is 3s
19:40:12 <elliott> i'd rather not have to get anyone who wants to use my server to patch and compile mosh
19:40:14 <kmc> so if nothing is happening you will get a "lag" warning every 3s
19:40:27 <kmc> the message is a client side thing
19:40:36 <kmc> so yeah, i guess they would need to compile it themselves
19:40:47 <elliott> in which the most annoying lag only lasts a second or two
19:41:05 <elliott> and it'd be nice to be notified of it rather than having to spam a key that has some visual effect
19:41:10 <elliott> to make sure you're not playing blindly
19:47:05 <elliott> kmc: how easy would it be for the mosh server to be able to control how long to wait before complaining about lag
19:47:16 <elliott> and/or how long the heartbeat interval is
19:47:45 <kmc> with unmodified clients? i don't think that's possible
19:47:57 <elliott> how easy would it be for mosh to allow that
19:48:05 <oerjan> soon someone is going to wonder what happened to the previous kitties.
19:48:49 <kmc> elliott: i think it would not be too hard
19:49:05 <oerjan> or perhaps Gregor is one of those cat ladies.
19:49:05 <kmc> you would just make these parameters be part of the terminal-state object which is synchronized between client and server
19:49:16 <elliott> how much do i need to yell at people to get it to happen :P
19:49:28 <kmc> that depends on whether your yelling takes the form of a patch
19:49:36 <kmc> i don't see a great need for this feature; maybe you can elaborate
19:49:51 <elliott> 20:40 <elliott> it's for a roguelike
19:49:51 <elliott> 20:40 <elliott> in which the most annoying lag only lasts a second or two
19:49:51 <elliott> 20:41 <elliott> and it'd be nice to be notified of it rather than having to spam a key that has some visual effect
19:49:53 <elliott> 20:41 <elliott> to make sure you're not playing blindly
19:50:04 <elliott> if it waits like 10 seconds before notifying you there's lag
19:50:10 <elliott> then you still have to do that a bunch
19:50:31 <elliott> if I could configure the server to say "hey, heartbeat every one second and complain about lag every one second"
19:50:34 <elliott> then it would be massively reduced
19:51:05 -!- oerjan has set topic: It is the year 2525 and man is still alive | I think pointers are considerably more useful than lambda calculus | 12345678 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:51:42 <ais523> are those digits for elliott?
19:51:49 <ais523> and does he still have the keyboard problem?
19:51:58 <elliott> ive just gotten really fast at copying and pasting
19:52:03 <kmc> elliott: it seems more reasonable to have it be configured by the client, rather than something the server pushes to the client
19:52:05 <oerjan> no, the topic is anachronistic
19:52:49 <elliott> kmc: fair enough, but "mosh server" is easier to tell people to type than "mosh --heartbeat=1 --lag-timeout=1 server"
19:53:04 <elliott> it seems reasonable for the server to be able to specify a default
19:53:25 <ais523> elliott: and thus you are discovering that mosh and telnet are designed to solve different problems
19:53:41 <elliott> ais523: i don't see the relevance
19:53:47 <elliott> how does telnet solve my problem any better
19:53:58 <elliott> telnet does not even indicate lag at all
19:54:17 <ais523> well, you can write a telnet client that does
19:55:06 <elliott> mosh has other advantages too
19:55:13 <elliott> I don't see why you think it's less suitable than telnet
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19:56:50 <kmc> it's a strange point to make, given that the mosh client already indicates lag
19:57:02 <elliott> what point is strange to make?
19:57:09 <kmc> that you can make a telnet client that does
19:57:14 <kmc> by way of contrasting with mosh
19:57:31 <elliott> oh, you were talking about ais523's point
19:57:41 <elliott> i don't know what ais523 is talking about really :P
19:57:51 <ais523> that was a counterargument to elliott's argument
19:58:25 <elliott> it's your original argument that doesn't make any sense
19:58:28 <kmc> i agree that mosh and telnet solve different problems though
19:58:32 <elliott> what are the different problems mosh and telnet are trying to solve, in your opinion
19:58:38 <elliott> and why is my problem more like the problem telnet solves than the problem mosh solves
19:58:42 <elliott> (and what do you think my problem is)
19:58:52 <ais523> well, things like ssh are basically based around solving /authentication/
19:58:58 <ais523> how to run a shell remotely and proving it's you
19:59:10 <ais523> mosh is based around how, inside a single-user session, you can keep it connected and so on
19:59:18 <ais523> telnet is more broadcasty, it allows anyone to connect without checking
19:59:24 <kmc> the main difference i see is that telnet and ssh convey a reliable octet stream from one point to another
19:59:28 <ais523> also, telnet is a really well-designed protocol
19:59:35 <ais523> with all sorts of extensions
19:59:47 <elliott> ais523: mosh does not depend on ssh
19:59:55 <kmc> whereas mosh synchronizes the current state of your terminal, without regard for the past
19:59:56 <elliott> and roaming is not the only advantage it offers
19:59:59 <ais523> elliott: it does for auth, doesn't it?
20:00:15 <kmc> ais523: there are two layers to mosh
20:00:34 <kmc> at the lower layer you run mosh-server, it prints an AES key, then you convey that to the client securely (this is up to you) and run mosh-client
20:00:36 <pikhq> I don't think anyone's done much with *other* mosh authentication schemes, but the design of it (as far as I'm aware) is such that you could reasonably use anything.
20:00:50 <elliott> 20:59 <kmc> whereas mosh synchronizes the current state of your terminal, without regard for the past
20:00:56 <elliott> this is one reason I find mosh desirable, btw
20:01:08 <kmc> but for the common case of authenticating over ssh, we provide a wrapper script that runs mosh-server and mosh-client for you
20:01:12 <elliott> because that's likely to be more efficient at updating a changing game screen
20:01:12 <madbrr> is there an utility to batch convert unix text files to cr-lf format
20:01:20 <elliott> and also because it means that setting your TERM to something different doesn't break spectators
20:01:23 <kmc> madbrr: unix2dos
20:01:41 <elliott> ais523: oh, and I find ssh a preferable auth mechanism to telnet
20:01:46 <elliott> ais523: because sending passwords in the clear sucks
20:01:52 <elliott> heck, many roguelike servers use ssh already
20:01:56 <ais523> elliott: just tell telnet to use ssl
20:02:04 <pikhq> "Batch convert"? GUIs suck for that.
20:02:13 <elliott> ais523: i think you're trolling at this point
20:02:26 <ais523> elliott: telnet with ssl is installed and currently running on nethack4.org
20:02:26 <madbrr> pikhq: was thinking of something more like oggdropXPd
20:02:31 <elliott> ais523: i am aware of this
20:02:46 <madbrr> ie a GUI app designed to convert a lot of files conveiniently
20:02:52 <pikhq> madbrr: So, you want a child's toy.
20:02:56 <kmc> pikhq: there is https://github.com/dmilith/genmosh
20:03:13 <madbrr> I want something that's convenient
20:03:17 <elliott> madbrr: for x in *.c; do unix2dos "$x"; done
20:03:19 <pikhq> madbrr: for i in *.txt; do unix2dos $i; done
20:03:20 <madbrr> and I don't really like console apps
20:03:21 <kmc> the last time I looked at the code, it seemed like a security disaster
20:03:37 <pikhq> So, you want a child's toy. Got it.
20:03:51 <elliott> "child's toy" is a really stupid way of phrasing that
20:03:53 <kmc> "hi, how can I batch convert unix to dos files? but i have to do it while blindfolded using only my left pinky toe"
20:04:03 <elliott> but a console application is really going to be 10x more convenient for converting a bunch of files in batch
20:04:06 <elliott> than having to select each one
20:04:13 <kmc> get some real tools and then use them to solve your problem
20:04:15 <madbrr> kmc: more like highlight a bunch of files in explorer, drag, drop, kdone
20:04:23 <madbrr> faster than the stupid console
20:04:28 <elliott> you realise you can drag things to console programs right
20:04:46 <kmc> pikhq: so I wouldn't recommedn this genmosh to anyone ;P but it's at least an example of someone making an alt mechanism and publishing it
20:04:58 <ais523> I typically use a one-liner Perl script, unix2dos never seems to be installed when I need it
20:05:01 <pikhq> In fact, in Windows, if you select a bunch of files and drag it onto a console program, it passes those files as arguments.
20:05:04 <elliott> i wish web browsers supported ssh authentication
20:05:10 <kmc> also maybe it got less disastrous
20:05:13 <ais523> (/is/ unix2dos a one-liner Perl script, I wonder? never thought of checking)
20:05:24 <zzo38> In Windows, it is possible to drag files from Explorer into the command prompt window.
20:05:38 <pikhq> kmc: It's a good example of the *principle* that you can implement alternate authentication.
20:05:39 <madbrr> pikhq: doesn't that tend to bust the command line length limit?
20:05:46 <zzo38> Possibly a similar program could be made for Linux too
20:05:52 <madbrr> pikhq: or was that just a win98 limitation
20:05:58 <elliott> another good reason not to use windows :)
20:06:05 <ais523> zzo38: does it depend on the version? I seem to remember that that doesn't work from Windows Vista onwards due to some complicated security thing involving messaging
20:06:18 <elliott> zzo38: it already works in linux
20:06:25 <pikhq> madbrr: Huh, it's 32k.
20:06:26 <elliott> with reasonable file browser/terminal combinations
20:06:33 <madbrr> dude, I compose music, the win32/64 programs for that are just much, much better than the linux ones
20:06:48 <kmc> madbrr: so install a real command line environment for windows
20:06:56 <kmc> such as cygwin
20:06:58 <madbrr> no, cygwin is retarded
20:07:09 <elliott> so do you want help or do you want to complain and annoy everybody
20:07:13 <elliott> if the latter, please just /part instead
20:07:17 <olsner> it seems to me that you now have a task different from composing music, for which win32/64 may not be a good choice
20:07:31 <zzo38> madbrr: When I compose music I find the programs best which are cross-platform anyways
20:07:32 <madbrr> just wanted some useful nice tool
20:07:35 <elliott> olsner: don't you know the old aphorism "use the right tool for one specific job I do and the wrong tool for everything else"
20:07:46 <olsner> not that the operating system is really relevant at all here
20:07:50 <kmc> madbrr: k, I think you have your answer by now that we don't know of one
20:07:58 <elliott> madbrr: well, you've been offered several practical and convenient ways to do what you want
20:08:16 <madbrr> I've been offered one yes
20:08:47 <zzo38> For music I use things such as MCK
20:08:50 <ais523> you can convert in WordPad, I think, although not batch-convert
20:08:59 <elliott> use a console program and drag stuff to it (whether the icon itself or a running console prompt); or install cygwin and use that to circumvent limits with the previous solution
20:09:02 <elliott> (and also allow convenient globbing)
20:09:03 <madbrr> also been preached to for not liking neckbearded tools and the command line
20:09:13 <elliott> no, I don't care if people don't like command lines
20:09:20 <ais523> in general, GUI programs are bad at batch jobs; you can design a GUI for one specific batch job, but you can't make a general one to handle batch-ising of jobs
20:09:22 <elliott> I care if people complaing when they're suggested for good and justified reasons and then just yell and insult people
20:09:29 <ais523> I don't think there's a GUI version of xargs, nor can even figure out how one would work
20:09:39 <pikhq> There's also the option of reporting bugs in a bunch of software: programs SHOULD support most reasonable newline conventions.
20:09:48 <madbrr> ais: for some very specific case you'll have to use batch scripts yeah
20:10:12 <Gregor> ais523: Select a group of files, drag them to an executable. By GUI convention, that behaves like xargs.
20:10:17 <ais523> and even not in those cases, I often do anyway because it's a much simpler and faster way of expressing what I want
20:10:17 <elliott> Gregor: we already suggested that
20:10:25 <ais523> Gregor: that behaves like xargs for opening files
20:10:26 <elliott> madbrr isn't happy because it involves a console window popping up at some point presumably
20:10:30 <elliott> and then he'd be a neckbeard!!!
20:10:31 <ais523> is there an equivalent for performing transformations?
20:10:37 <Gregor> I'm not REALLY reading, this conversation is very stupid.
20:11:00 <madbrr> elliott: nah, drag and drop to console apps is fine
20:11:11 <elliott> ...then why are you still complaining
20:11:15 <elliott> that was the second thing suggested
20:11:42 <zzo38> I find usually even drag/drop not needed since you can use wildcards and/or tab completion, but sometimes dragging the files to the command-line window is very useful
20:12:19 <pikhq> zzo38: Yes, but you're not offended by the idea of using a command line tool. :)
20:12:56 <zzo38> Even if using a system that does not support dragging between windows, if there is a clipboard (such as the X clipboard or whatever) you can make it that whatever files are selected their full paths goes on the clipboard.
20:13:24 <zzo38> Probably the PRIMARY buffer, so that you can then middle-click the terminal emulator window to paste the names there.
20:15:03 <olsner> sounds like a neckbearded solution
20:15:57 <elliott> someone hecked my aim and it gave me a neckbeard
20:16:05 <elliott> what else have we been referencing for the past 17 years
20:16:33 <elliott> someone hecked my aim and it trapped me in a matrix of solidity, causing me to grow a neckbeard
20:16:37 <olsner> what is a neckbeard anyway?
20:16:55 <elliott> i think the clue's in the name
20:18:01 <olsner> seems to me that neckbeard should either be just "beard" or just "hair"
20:18:08 <olsner> depending on which side of the neck you're referring to
20:19:02 <Vorpal> <nortti> Vorpal: statring forth <-- thanks
20:19:18 <elliott> Vorpal: i think thinking forth is meant to be better
20:19:21 <elliott> but i don't recall exactly
20:19:24 <Vorpal> <nortti> and you can use oonbotti's interactive forth interpreter <-- I'm learning forth because I need to use it, so I already have a target implementation in mind
20:19:34 <elliott> Vorpal: forth implementations tend to differ wildly
20:19:40 <elliott> what is the one you are planning to use?
20:20:00 <oerjan> olsner: it's a specific kind of beard
20:20:17 <Vorpal> elliott, you know about the minecraft mod redpower2? Adds a fully emulated 6802 running forth into minecraft. :)
20:20:24 <Vorpal> (as of the last version)
20:20:28 <elliott> i don;t have a beard. there's just a black hole underneath my face
20:20:36 <elliott> Vorpal: ok well the chances that's ans forth are pretty low i'd say
20:20:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I looked at it, and it looks like pre ans forth yeah.
20:21:02 <oerjan> elliott has been a singularitarian too long
20:21:09 <olsner> hmm, based on the internet, I think I've identified my usual beard as a neckbeard
20:21:44 <olsner> but I'm not sure... am I supposed to shave my face but leave my neck, for it to become a neckbeard?
20:21:45 <elliott> Vorpal: then any intro book will probably cease being useful to you after a sufficient number of chapters
20:21:51 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway that mod is cool, you can put redwire (basically better behaved redstone dust, that doesn't fade so quickly, can be insulated, can run on walls and much more)
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20:22:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I just need help getting started with the basics really.
20:22:52 <itidus21> olsner: i think the idea is that a neckbeard is an extension of a regular beard..
20:23:05 <pikhq> Yeah, redpower is awesomeness.
20:23:24 <itidus21> its the first time ive heard that word though
20:24:23 <Vorpal> elliott, also that mod has probably the lowest density memory ever: 8K expansion modules connected to the backplane, each module a full cubic meter!
20:25:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: By Minecraft standards that's impossibly high density.
20:25:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, looked at Mystcraft btw? It is basically a mod that lets you write books linking to new dimensions (with certain properties you discover by experimenting and can then use at will), in Myst style
20:25:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: Little bit.
20:26:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: Checked out frames in RP?
20:26:07 <Vorpal> other great mod: logistics pipes (addon for buildcraft).
20:26:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, that is what I'm going to use my forth skills (that I'm planning to learn) for.
20:26:48 <Vorpal> automated mining machine. With the enterchest mod to move stuff back to base.
20:27:19 <Vorpal> hm I have a lot of mods installed. Using the multimc launcher currently, it is really good.
20:27:43 <Vorpal> handles installing the mods for you, you just drag the zip files into it and it handles the rest
20:27:46 <pikhq> I use some hacked up shell scripts. :)
20:27:56 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm too lazy for that
20:28:16 <Vorpal> anyway I needed something that was cross platform, since I sometimes dual boot one computer to windows
20:28:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway: used logistics pipes?
20:28:48 <pikhq> It is t3h awesome.
20:29:17 <Vorpal> I have like 250 auto crafting tables set up along the walls of a room, with logistics pipes connected to them
20:29:31 <Vorpal> only issue is that the request interface gets clunking with that many recipes
20:30:23 <Vorpal> but still, many mod recipes are downright annoying. Like the frame motors.... Oh and the wireless redstone ones (another mod, using the one that integrates with redpower)
20:31:56 <Vorpal> like you need to make an obsidian stick, then a "reather pearl" (sp?), then combine those. Then combine that with a stone bowl you just crafted. Now you have an antenna dish. And that is just about half the work of a transmitter or a reciever...
20:32:32 <Vorpal> hm, actually that is for receiver, there is no dish for the transmitter
20:32:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway, which mods do you play with?
20:35:44 <pikhq> I think the bigs ones ATM are RP, IC, BC, logistics pipes, EE...
20:36:15 <Vorpal> personally: in jar: modloader, forge, mystcraft, NEI (for displaying recipes and for cheating in my test world), rei minimap, optifine. In mods/: buildcraft, equivalent exchange, ender chests, forestry, industrialcraft, invtweaks, laser mod, logistics pipe, compact solars (IC2 addon), ironchests, railcraft, redpower, treecapitator, WR-CBE (that is the wireless redstone one), somnia (so time is simulated
20:36:16 <Vorpal> while you sleep). Plus a few smaller buildcraft addons.
20:36:40 <Vorpal> oh and I forgot that IC2 addon that adds like induction furnace tire machines for macerator and so on
20:37:12 <Vorpal> I used to use the portal gun mod too. It is fun but a bit overpowered for survival...
20:38:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, you should try out railcraft. It is kind of neat. A bit more useful in SMP though I feel, since you don't tend to get cities to travel between in single player
20:38:38 <Vorpal> still, stuff like elevator rails are cool :)
20:40:05 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:40:17 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: On occasion.
20:40:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, only heavily modded MC. Wouldn't play vanilla any longer
20:40:32 <Vorpal> and not as much as I used to
20:40:35 <pikhq> What happens, really, is sometimes I get in the mood and play for a while, and then leave it abandoned for a while.
20:40:55 <Vorpal> played fallout new vegas today a lot. And a bit of MC
20:41:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I found I roughly play every other release of MC.
20:41:50 <Vorpal> I hardly touched 1.1, did quite a bit on 1.0 and I am now playing 1.2.5 quite a bit
20:44:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, btw I found that an issue with EE is that it pretty much makes any other sort of resource acquirement pointless once you reach the EE endgame. I could just slap down a mark 3 collector next to a energy condenser and set it to generate diamonds, then hook up a provider logistics pipe. And I no longer need to mine any diamonds...
20:45:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: By the time you hit the EE endgame, resource acquisition is just an annoyance anyways.
20:45:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, but I hit it before redpower frames were added, so now I'm kind of hard pressed to find a use for my frames :P
20:46:49 <Vorpal> currently I have more red matter in my automated farm for that than I know what to do with. I started transmuting the stuff into pedestals to save space!
20:47:05 <Vorpal> (I don't like throwing away EMC)
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20:48:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, of course, since I have forestry I have not even reached close to the endgame of THAT. God damn bees with 8% chance of mutation...
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20:51:01 <Vorpal> pikhq_, every tried the forestry mod?
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20:53:07 <Vorpal> it is a nice kind-of-addon to buildcraft (it used to be an addon, but now it is technically freestanding, though significantly more useful with buildcraft). It adds biofuel for example, as an alternative to the finite oil resource of buildcraft.
20:54:00 <Vorpal> also adds stuff like reed farms, tree farms, peat farms and what not. Oh and *really* in-depth beekeeping.
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21:00:01 <ion> My new hobby http://youtu.be/_aW6d46VbpM
21:01:22 <Vorpal> ion, did the guy inside survive?
21:02:20 <ion> I know as much as you do.
21:03:29 <Gregor> ion: Your new hobby is killing yourself in stupid ways?
21:03:45 <ion> gregor: Yes, preferably losing an arm in the process.
21:04:45 <elliott> "derka derka allah jihad [+18]" the only thing stupider than youtube comments is the people who upvote youtube comments
21:04:56 <nortti> have you heard that ELKS has got an update?
21:05:04 <Vorpal> Gregor, I'm just amazed that guy didn't kill anyone else as well
21:06:10 <pikhq_> Besides, the quote is "derka derka muhammed jihad".
21:06:35 <ion> elliott: Verily.
21:07:20 <elliott> pikhq_: it doesn't really matter what the quote is
21:07:54 <pikhq_> Course, that movie was really, really stupid...
21:21:43 <fizzie> nortti: Weird, I'd have assumed ELKS to be pretty dead.
21:22:20 <nortti> fizzie: me too. but they got release out after 6 years
21:23:45 <fizzie> Maybe it's some sort of a zombie kernel.
21:25:08 <nortti> maybe. they also got it to git and left cvs behind
21:27:37 <nortti> they also got a new project: busyelks. it is busybox style thingie for elks.
21:30:38 <nortti> Vorpal: Embeddable Linux Kernel Subset
21:30:45 <Gregor> Does ELKS still use bcc? They should switch to owcc ...
21:30:49 <Vorpal> heh, never heard of that one even
21:30:55 <elliott> Embeddable Linux Kernel System, isn't it
21:30:57 <Vorpal> nortti, so something like µclinux?
21:30:59 <elliott> oh the website disagrees with itself
21:31:05 <nortti> Gregor: they still use bcc
21:31:17 <nortti> Vorpal: basicaly. but for 8086
21:31:38 <Vorpal> hm wasn't/isn't there a C compiler frontend with a name just like ELKS?
21:31:53 <Vorpal> something very close anyway?
21:33:04 <Vorpal> urgh... need to sleep, just feel half asleep on top of my keyboard for a few seconds...
21:36:55 <ion> It’s fun when you happen to be pushing some key at the time you fall to microsleep.
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21:37:11 <ion> As in, “it’s fun when you happppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp”
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21:38:30 <ion> You might not even notice you took a short nap except that a bunch of repeated letters suddenly appeared on your screen.
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21:45:25 <itidus21> first set my hands in the right place, then type with my eyes shu.. and, little errors may start to creep in..
21:45:40 <itidus21> its god if you just typing to type
21:47:57 <itidus21> the trouble is overcompensating if you think you held a key too long
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21:56:56 <nortti> Gregor: is owcc open watcom? what kind of license they have?
22:09:19 * Sgeo is watching an IWBTG blind LP for some reason
22:17:07 <Gregor> nortti: Yes, Open Watcom. It's under a wonky but usable license, FSF-rejected but OSI-approved because it actually /requires/ that you publish changes you make in certain circumstances where you don't even publish the binaries.
22:17:33 <elliott> Gregor: bleh, that's dfsg-violating
22:17:45 <elliott> why would the OSI approve that? it's evil
22:18:21 <Gregor> Yeah, it's not a great license X-D
22:18:27 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_Free_Software_Guidelines
22:18:27 <lambdabot> Title: Debian Free Software Guidelines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
22:18:42 <elliott> it fails the desert islnad test
22:24:23 <shachaf> if (!strcmp, name, EXPECTED) {
22:24:30 <shachaf> I was wondering why my code was being odd.
22:25:09 <shachaf> Should've been compiling with -Wall
22:30:23 <pikhq_> shachaf: Well, it is *valid* C, at least.
22:30:35 <shachaf> pikhq_: That's the problem. :-(
22:40:39 <oerjan> strictly conforming, isn't it?
22:40:57 <pikhq_> It's *silly* behavior, but it's quite well-defined.
22:41:03 <kmc> working on the IOCCC are we
22:41:15 <pikhq_> (silly in the sense of "nobody would intentionally do this")
22:43:37 <elliott> oerjan: "valid" means "strictly conforming" in the context of C :P
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22:44:37 <kmc> does gcc -Wall actually catch that
22:44:51 <shachaf> warning: the address of ‘strcmp’ will always evaluate as ‘true’ [-Waddress]
22:45:01 <shachaf> warning: left-hand operand of comma expression has no effect [-Wunused-value]
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22:52:07 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
22:53:12 <oerjan> we were severely under quota here
22:53:15 <shachaf> kmc: Are syscalls actually made through the VDSO?
22:53:38 <HackEgo> 537) <Vorpal> elliott_, oh they are people known in the ruby community? <elliott_> Vorpal: Uh... you mean Hannah Montana? <Vorpal> elliott_, yeah. And Zed Shaw. Either they are that or they come from popular culture.
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22:53:46 <HackEgo> 411) <elliott> Gregor: do you have any idea how overrated lives are <Gregor> Damn right!
22:53:48 <HackEgo> 195) <tswett> That is the mark of Gregor right there. <ais523> tswett: except that Gregor didn't write that <tswett> It's still the mark of Gregor.
22:53:56 <HackEgo> 718) <Phantom_Hoover> The only way you could do better would be to implement Monopoly with chocolate.
22:53:59 <HackEgo> 39) <mycroftiv> [...] sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective
22:54:09 <kmc> shachaf: on Linux i386 it's the current preferred mechanism, though direct int $0x80 still works
22:54:11 <ais523> elliott: I was about to say 411
22:54:27 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> Gregor: do you have any idea how overrated lives are <Gregor> Damn right!
22:54:32 <kmc> shachaf: on Linux amd64 you use the 'syscall' instruction directly, and the VDSO is only for userspace "vsyscalls" like gettimeofday
22:54:38 <shachaf> kmc: Ah, but on amd64 it just uses the syscall instruction?
22:54:44 <ais523> good thing I managed to cancel typing that, or I'd have to revert the deltion of the new 411
22:54:48 <shachaf> Yes, that's what it was looking like.
22:54:49 <HackEgo> 411) <Gregor> "<Gregor> Damn right!" wouldn't be much of a quote :P
22:55:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7017
22:55:04 <ais523> oh well, that one's deleratble too :)
22:55:15 <elliott> you must leave quotes that get their meaning removed
22:55:15 <shachaf> So where can I get a guaranteed executable syscall instruction in the address space? :-(
22:55:26 <shachaf> I guess the VDSO (a) still has them and (b) isn't guaranteed.
22:55:34 <kmc> shachaf: i don't have any new ideas since last time
22:55:42 <HackEgo> 410) <Gregor> decrypt 'illustrates the "can do" approach of conservatism in a patriotic way'
22:55:55 <shachaf> I mean Intel 64®, not amd64.
22:56:12 <kmc> it works on both
22:56:13 <shachaf> Better go with Intel® 64® just to be safe.
22:56:29 <kmc> "intel 64" ≠ ia64
22:57:00 <kmc> just assume the names are maximally confusing
22:57:09 <nortti_> intell's 64bit x86 CPUs are actually amd64 CPUs
22:57:34 <shachaf> Yes, and they're also Intel® 64® CPUs.
22:57:49 <shachaf> Did you figure out an answer to newsham's question?
22:58:03 <kmc> pclmullqlqdq
22:58:11 <elliott> What was newsham's question?
22:58:26 <shachaf> elliott: It was about how you can figure out the cardinalities of polymorphic types.
22:58:41 -!- JKL1234- has joined.
22:58:56 <HackEgo> JKL1234-: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:58:56 <shachaf> For example, forall a. a -> a has one inhabitant, and forall a. a -> a -> a has 2.
22:59:14 <shachaf> Can you do a pseudo-algebraic thing like you normally do with cardinalities to figure it out?
22:59:22 <shachaf> a -> (a -> b) -> a -> b is also 2
22:59:40 <nortti_> JKL1234-: What brings you here?
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23:00:47 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: There are two "a"s to apply.
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23:03:22 <elliott> shachaf: You need parametricity for that.
23:03:23 <elliott> i.e. you can't prove it everywhere that the algebraic type law stuff applies.
23:03:23 <oerjan> presumably it's true in system F
23:03:23 <zzo38> I have thought of things like that too; with things like (forall x. x -> x -> x -> x -> x -> x) the cardinality is how many -> there are. And do you know what kind of function (forall x. [x] -> Maybe x) is?
23:04:03 <oerjan> zzo38: the latter could branch on length to select which element, if any, to use?
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23:04:28 <oerjan> although it needs to have an upper bound if you allow infinite lists
23:04:50 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, that is church natural numbers
23:06:52 <zzo38> oerjan: What it seems to me is that if the input and output are treated as natural numbers, then the type constrains output to be less than or equal to the input
23:06:53 <oerjan> shachaf: for a start, you can try to construct the adt it emulates, like a -> a -> a means there are two constructors with no arguments
23:07:18 <oerjan> (a -> a) -> a -> a means there are two constructors, the first takes an argument of the same type
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23:08:27 <oerjan> zzo38: well yes that's one way of looking at it
23:13:18 <ais523> --- google.com ping statistics ---
23:13:21 <ais523> 27 packets transmitted, 23 received, 14% packet loss, time 42327ms
23:13:21 <ais523> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 17.485/31.434/156.107/32.597 ms
23:13:26 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:13:34 <ais523> there is something wrong with this connection, right?
23:14:05 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, is there the other way?
23:15:07 <nortti_> hmm it seems like all stack based data manipulation cam be defined using : ; >R R@ R> BEGIN WHILE LOOP IF EPSE THEN - >
23:15:55 <zzo38> And maybe you mean REPEAT instead of LOOP
23:16:04 <ais523> also, I'm again reminded that TCP can function even in cases of heavy packet loss
23:17:00 <nortti_> oh and with AND bitwise arimethrics can be implemented
23:17:21 <oerjan> zzo38: they're presumably all equivalent...
23:17:22 <kmc> ais523: not very well, though
23:18:12 <nortti_> ( : NOT 0 SWAP - 1 - ; : NAND AND NOT ; )
23:18:13 <ais523> well, yes, but what would work better?
23:18:28 <ais523> and 14% isn't as bad as it could be, it mostly just confuses slow-start and that sort of thing
23:19:12 <zzo38> But I guess I can see how they work : DUP >R R@ R> ; : DROP IF THEN ;
23:20:41 <nortti_> zzo38: actually : DROP DUP - - ;
23:21:31 <zzo38> Yes, that works too
23:22:17 <nortti_> ( that is how it is implemented in oonbotti's forth )
23:22:31 <zzo38> And even if you don't have 0 if you only have 1 you can still make : 0 1 1 - ;
23:23:48 <nortti_> actually even without numbers : + >R DUP DUP - R> - - ;
23:26:45 <nortti_> also numbers can easily be defined with if you have 0 1+
23:31:27 -!- ais523 has quit.
23:32:51 <nortti_> : > < NOT ; : = 2DUP > -ROT < OR ;
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23:35:07 <nortti_> forth is pretty awesome because how much of it can be derived from so little
23:36:28 <pikhq_> Forth is awesome because when people call it "simple" they're not lying.
23:39:27 <nortti_> and with that and 1+ we can define : 1 0 1+ ;
23:41:12 <nortti_> : 2 1 1+ ; : 3 2 1+ ; : 4 2 2 * ; : 5 4 1+ ; : 6 2 3 * ; and so on and so on
23:43:46 <shachaf> Why does strcpy(dst, src) return dst?
23:43:51 <shachaf> That's such a useless value to return.
23:44:13 <ais523> you may well want to assign it to something
23:44:36 <shachaf> So assign dst to that something.
23:44:45 <shachaf> A much more useful value might be dst + strlen(src)
23:45:10 <elliott> strcpy is practically broken because of that
23:45:14 <shachaf> Or void. void would be better than always returning the first argument. :-(
23:45:45 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes I agree, dst + strlen(src) would probably be better
23:46:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quotw: not found
23:46:19 <HackEgo> 195) <tswett> That is the mark of Gregor right there. <ais523> tswett: except that Gregor didn't write that <tswett> It's still the mark of Gregor.
23:46:34 <HackEgo> 43) <Deewiant> I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly \ 88) <ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.? \ 106) <soupdragon> if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect <soupdragon> ^ I learned that trick from atheists
23:47:23 <tswett> So, did quote 195 actually happen, or is HackEgo hallucinating?
23:47:46 <ais523> hmm, it'd be entirely possible to produce a klein bottle that doesn't self-intersect by using time as the remaining dimension
23:47:53 <ais523> but might be quite mechanically awkward to create one
23:48:03 <ais523> tswett: it probably just run out of space on the line
23:48:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quotificate: not found
23:48:30 <tswett> Yes, but my logs for freenode don't contain the phrase "mark of Gregor" except as said by HackEgo in that quote.
23:48:49 <ais523> perhaps you weren't there when you said it
23:48:50 <shachaf> Try a case-insensitive search.
23:49:01 <elliott> `pastlog ..:..:..: <ts.*still the mark of gregor
23:49:31 <tswett> Perhaps someone else said it in my name?
23:49:42 <ais523> I'm checking my local logs (of every channel), because I'm in the quote too
23:49:49 <ais523> perhaps it wasn't in #esoteric
23:50:04 <shachaf> My hard drive is only 750GB.
23:50:22 <shachaf> I once contemplated getting a 1TB hard drive, so I assumed that it must be 1TB.
23:50:41 <ais523> [Monday, December 06, 2010] [06:50:33 pm] <tswett>It's still the mark of Gregor.
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23:51:02 <tswett> Ah. My logs stop three weeks before that.
23:51:06 <ais523> that'll be UTC not glogbot-stupid-timezone
23:51:27 <tswett> Well, I have a strict one-year limit on identity.
23:51:35 <ais523> heh, that quote was 270 for a while
23:51:39 <shachaf> tswett: I have a 15-second limit!
23:51:51 <ais523> my logs didn't capture any numbers in between
23:51:52 <tswett> If something was done by someone more than one year ago, it was not done by me.
23:52:18 <lambdabot> No quotes match. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
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23:53:50 <elliott> 00:51 <ais523> that'll be UTC not glogbot-stupid-timezone
23:53:56 <elliott> @tell ais523 glogbot's stupid timezone is UTC
23:55:23 <atehwa> elliott: oh, I dropped a few status updates here, too :) The event went fine, the voluntary exercises ran for a couple of weeks, no one really cared to do them, so I quit giving them.
23:55:58 <elliott> atehwa: Aw, that's a shame.
23:56:03 <elliott> Good to hear the event went well, though.
23:56:04 <atehwa> So, to summarise: consciousness about esolangs was heightened, there was nice participation across different universities, it was fun, and not very much else resulted. :)
23:56:19 <elliott> Sounds like the esolangs community in general
23:57:33 <atehwa> actually, the event was really fun. They posed a lot of good questions, both the likes of "how would you do this in Thue?" and the likes of "is there something that uses videos as source code"?
23:57:58 <atehwa> oh nooooo I got the quotes and the question mark the wrong way
00:02:16 <shachaf> kmc: This code had a macro of the form special_debug_printf(("%s", args)). I didn't notice the extra () and #defined special_debug_printf printf. It took me a little while to figure out what was going on. Maybe you can use that for your underhanded code thing!
00:02:21 * shachaf is mostly just annoyed at this code.
00:04:29 <elliott> shachaf: that's for c89 compat
00:06:13 <lambdabot> Warrigal says: Hey, the module loaded. I didn't expect that.
00:06:29 <tswett> That... was probably funny in context?
00:06:32 <lambdabot> jcreigh says: <chessguy> i mean if someone says factorial should be of type String -> [(Float, Bool)], you should just tell them they're nuts <jcreigh> > let fac n = map (\x -> (x, True)) $ scanl (*
00:06:32 <lambdabot> ) 1 [1..(read n)] in fac "5" :: [(Float, Bool)]
00:07:11 <tswett> @quote my factorial function
00:07:11 <lambdabot> No quotes for this person. My mind is going. I can feel it.
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00:23:46 <elliott> Who here is good at naming git branches? :(
00:24:23 <shachaf> I like to name them ee1de02f4cc67f0d5d6a2ed0b3b03c9e6fa5c5a7
00:24:33 <shachaf> Or 2ee1eb0e876e64adf0c35a05ac63c785cfb23cdc
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00:33:27 <zzo38> I have only ever posted updates of files (and new files) to git, not branches
01:04:05 <zzo38> atehwa: Well, you can put the idea about videos on the esolang wiki list of ideas if you want to
01:04:37 <atehwa> oh, I didn't know such a list existed
01:04:52 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas
01:05:04 <zzo38> shachaf: I have looked at underhanded C codes and easily find the errors in most cases
01:05:05 <atehwa> it sounds like one, right from the topic :)
01:06:06 <zzo38> elliott: It used to be even more mess; it is better now. And still, I think it is good the way it is; ideas with a lot more completion can go to separate pages which can be written better if you have that
01:06:18 <elliott> It is slightly less of a mess.
01:06:29 <elliott> But then it got more messy again.
01:07:27 * ion reads http://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas and patents them all!
01:09:04 <kmc> zzo38: where did you find these codes
01:09:23 <ion> Method and system for implementing a compiler for a programming language based on graphics represented in the American Standard Code for Information Interchange
01:12:14 <zzo38> In programs that take a random stream of bits to generate random integers within a range, and if the range is not a power of two, would you deal with the uniformness of the generator?
01:13:52 <shachaf> I may not like the situation with "web applications" these days.
01:14:12 <shachaf> But I'm glad we're not in the days of CGI scripts written in C anymore.
01:14:27 <elliott> shachaf: Are you writing a CGI script in C?
01:14:39 <shachaf> elliott: No, I'm reading a CGI script written in C.
01:14:40 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't like either. But even recently I have written a CGI script in C.
01:14:43 <shachaf> I guess it's not a "script".
01:16:43 <zzo38> TeXnicard uses the following algorithm for random number generator: unsigned int r=max_uint-(max_uint%limit); for(;;) { @<Make the next number |rng_w| by Xorshift algorithm@>; @<Check the range, try again if out of range, else |return|@>; }
01:18:52 <madbrr> what sort of language can you make out of only 2 symbols
01:19:17 <zzo38> There is also Jot, which uses 0 and 1 and then eventually ends
01:19:28 <madbrr> and is crazy functionnal stuff? :D
01:20:31 <madbrr> who composes music in here
01:20:46 <zzo38> But Gregor probably does more
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01:21:15 <madbrr> yeah I think gregor does sheet music, especially piano
01:21:26 <HackEgo> TheJimmyJames: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:21:42 <madbrr> zzo: what sort of music do you do?
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01:22:45 <zzo38> madbrr: I do four-part chorale on paper, I also do monophonic music on QBASIC using PLAY command, and some using Bohlen-Pierce as well using PlayBP which is a subroutine I made up for that purpose
01:23:38 <madbrr> never tried bohlen-pierce
01:24:01 <zzo38> I have experimented with other temperaments as well
01:24:56 <zzo38> I have also written some polyphonic music using PPMCK
01:25:31 <madbrr> as of yet the most interesting I've found was using modified scale for some melodic instument, over equal temperament chords
01:26:01 <madbrr> especially the arabic-ish kind of scale where you detune stuff like 3rds and 6ths more towards "neutral" intervals
01:26:30 <madbrr> ppmck is the one for making NES music right?
01:26:56 <madbrr> yeah I've mostly used converters for my nes stuff
01:27:10 <zzo38> I have also made some changes to PPMCK, so that a subroutine call followed by return from subroutine is just replaced by a jump instruction instead
01:27:44 <madbrr> the s3m2nsf / it2nsf / supernsf family
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01:31:48 <madbrr> supernsf is particularly ridiculous
01:31:54 <madbrr> lets you cheat way too much :D
01:31:59 <madbrr> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94ZEczIYbUQ <- supernsf
01:33:35 <madbrr> notice anything about the dpcm? :D
01:34:27 <zzo38> Do you mean it converts WAV to DPCM and plays that as the music?
01:35:34 <madbrr> well, you could do that but it's cooler even
01:35:56 <madbrr> the song fits in like 200k
01:36:57 <zzo38> Have you ever sent anything to Famicompo or Famicompo Mini?
01:37:14 <madbrr> yes the song I linked to was in famicompo mini
01:37:34 <zzo38> What volume and number? I have the entire Famicompo Mini on my computer so I can easily find it
01:38:26 <zzo38> I mean, what volume number, section (cover or original), and entry number?
01:42:47 <madbrr> can't be one huge dpcm sample for the whole tune, would be much larger than 200k
01:42:57 <zzo38> Yes I can see what is done now
01:43:36 <madbrr> it's a software mixer and reampler for the NES
01:44:20 <zzo38> Does that mean you cannot include the music in a game?
01:44:30 <madbrr> yeah you couldn't put that in a gaime
01:45:25 <madbrr> does nothing else than resample 2~4 channels of sound, apply volume, mix, write to the DPCM port to set position
01:45:50 <madbrr> and from time to time interpret a music data command (to change the sample freq or volume or the NES channels)
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01:48:12 <madbrr> the song has like one sample for each word ("smoke" "wee-" "-eed" "ev-" "-ery" "day"), so all the silly echoes and harmonizations are all sequenced :D
01:49:48 <kmc> hey hey smoke weed everyday
01:51:09 <zzo38> O, that's what they are saying. I found the speech difficult to understand at first
01:51:43 <madbrr> yeah it's a recent silly meme on youtube
01:52:27 <madbrr> use samples from that one time snoop dogg says "smoke weed everyday" without any instrumental backing and fit that over random VGM :D
01:53:18 <kmc> "Only thing is... wouldn't that be against the Big Beat Manifesto?"
01:53:19 <kmc> "Have you read the Big Beat Manifesto lately? The Big Beat Manifesto goes, 'Big beats are the best, get high all the time.'"
01:59:47 <madbrr> also did fcm8 original 40, fcm7 original 1 & 71, fcm6 original 19 cover 37 & 42, fcm5 original 58 cover 8, fcm classical original 22
02:02:39 <zzo38> I do like fcm8 original 40 and fcm7 original 1, I don't like fcm8 cover 63 much though.
02:03:08 <kmc> that's pretty dumb
02:03:24 <kmc> i can see the humor of adding "smoke weed every day" to a vgm track
02:03:38 <kmc> but adding a poorly autotuned sample on every note?
02:03:48 <kmc> that just gets annoying fast
02:04:37 <zzo38> kmc: Do you have the entire Famicompo Mini on your computer?
02:04:53 <madbrr> anyways it's mostly for the meme value (and because the moon is a nice song)
02:10:24 <kmc> "for the meme value" is a completely bankrupt rationale
02:10:56 <kmc> "why do you keep giving people herpes?" "for the herpes value!"
02:11:46 <ion> Why do you keep giving people herps? For the derps value!
02:13:41 <kmc> herps derps
02:14:54 <shachaf> kmc: If everyone had herpes, you wouldn't have to worry about giving/getting herpes anymore!
02:14:59 <shachaf> Herpes: The Great Equalizer.
02:17:16 <Gregor> If everyone was dead, you wouldn't have to worry about killing/being killed anymore!
02:17:21 <Gregor> Death: The Great Equalizer.
02:26:29 <zzo38> If the Earth didn't exist, you wouldn't have to worry about it orbiting the Sun anymore!
02:28:13 <Gregor> Spontaneous planetary cessation: The Great Equalizer.
02:32:54 <zzo38> Can you remind me what the command is in C to access the current UNIX timestamp?
02:34:08 <zzo38> I am going to add a support for a timer to Internet Quiz Engine.
02:34:54 <pikhq_> zzo38: time_t time(time_t *t);
02:35:42 <kmc> what's the point of time(2)'s pointer argument?
02:36:12 <pikhq_> The *semantics* are that, if t is non-NULL, it'll store its return value in there, too.
02:36:19 <pikhq_> Why you would want this is beyond me.
02:36:45 <zzo38> Especially since C allows assignments inside of other expressions
02:39:48 <shachaf> Hmm, does strace replace the VDSO with its a little tracing function or something?
02:42:36 <kmc> don't believe so
02:42:43 <kmc> i don't think you see gettimeofday(2) in strace
02:43:03 <kmc> you might see it in ltrace assuming it's being called through libc
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02:44:46 <shachaf> elliott: I know it uses ptrace. That means that it only sees actual system calls that go to the kernel.
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02:44:57 <kmc> that's right
02:45:06 <shachaf> I do see time(NULL) calls in strace.
02:45:13 <shachaf> But maybe that's not done through gettimeofday(2).
02:45:32 <kmc> i know the VDSO handles gettimeofday and clock_gettime but I don't know about time
02:45:38 <zzo38> madbrr: All of the files you mentioned are very good; the only one you did that I don't like much is fcm8 cover 63
02:45:45 <kmc> on my amd64 system I don't see gettimeofday calls unless I build a static binary
02:46:29 <kmc> static binaries don't use vsyscalls but I think on i386 they still use the VDSO for regular syscalls
02:46:47 * shachaf wonders why the VDSO even exists.
02:46:57 <kmc> on i386 you get an ELF auxv entry for the start of the VDSO ELF in memory, and another auxv entry for the syscall entry point
02:46:59 <shachaf> I mean, as opposed to doing it in libc.
02:47:02 <kmc> on amd64 you get only the first of those
02:47:07 <shachaf> Is it just so the kernel can generate the code once at boot?
02:48:27 <MSleep> Oh no, other MDude isn't timing out.
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02:49:23 <kmc> the userspace code immediately surrounding the call into ring 0 is basically kernel implementation details
02:49:31 <kmc> it makes sense to let that change with the kernel, not with libc
02:49:39 <MDuck> Someone else registered MDude sometime before I showed up, I was just using the nick because I use it elsewhere.
02:49:53 <kmc> ditto the implementation of gettimeofday etc, which read kernel data structures
02:49:54 <MDuck> It could be that whoever actually registered it showed up.
02:50:01 <shachaf> kmc: libc is already really closely coupled with the kernel.
02:50:18 <kmc> it's a nicer option than making the locations and layouts of those "internal" data structures part of the stable ABI
02:50:24 <kmc> shachaf: not to this degree, I think
02:50:32 <MDuck> Unless he just joined right before elliott notes that something uses ptrace.
02:51:10 <MDuck> Oh hey look he disconnected while I wasn't paying attention.
02:51:14 -!- MDuck has changed nick to MDude.
02:51:14 <zzo38> MDuck: You can check by NS INFO and WHOIS commands, some information about someone else with that nickname
02:51:41 <MDude> I'll try to remember.
02:51:47 <kmc> shachaf: the VDSO makes particular sense for SYSENTER
02:52:38 <kmc> when userspace invokes the SYSENTER instruction, the CPU jumps to kernel code in ring 0 without saving the userspace instruction pointer (or code segment)
02:52:41 <shachaf> kmc: Right, because the address has to be known.
02:52:52 <shachaf> (But then the VDSO can't be randomized anymore, can it?)
02:52:55 <kmc> which means that practically a) you should have only one SYSENTER instruction in all of userspace, and b) the kernel needs to know where it is
02:53:08 <kmc> shachaf: I was just thinking about that, but I worked it out
02:53:17 <kmc> because the kernel knows where the VDSO is mapped in each process's spacj
02:53:50 <kmc> whereas, if the SYSENTER instruction were in vanilla libc code, there would have to be an extra mechanism for telling the kernel where it is
02:54:04 <kmc> not like Linux is averse to such mechanisms (*cough* set_robust_list(2) *cough*)
02:54:15 <shachaf> No manual entry for set_robust_list
02:54:28 <kmc> http://lwn.net/Articles/172149/
02:54:28 <zzo38> Did you know that in Haskell, you can make up the Kleisli category for Set to be an instance of Category, even though Set cannot be an instance of Monad?
02:54:58 <shachaf> zzo38: No. How can you do that?
02:55:04 <kmc> shachaf: [vsyscall] is the old non-randomized VDSO-like thing
02:55:49 <zzo38> shachaf: http://sprunge.us/CDAB
02:57:45 <shachaf> You're using an existential type?
02:58:27 <kmc> shachaf: these days it contains only short sequences like "mov $0x60, %rax; syscall; ret"
02:58:57 <kmc> it's a compatibility layer only, which goes through the slow "real" syscall path
02:58:57 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, it does work.
02:59:36 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, I can use this for the debugger thing, then.
02:59:45 <kmc> ah, that's true!
02:59:46 <shachaf> It's not even randomized so it's much nicer.
02:59:54 <shachaf> I guess a process *could* still unmap it.
03:00:06 <shachaf> But it should work for any "reasonable" program.
03:00:38 <shachaf> Why is dumping [vdso]/[vsyscall] such a hassle. :-(
03:00:48 <elliott> shachaf: Where is zzo38 using an existential type there?
03:00:55 <kmc> shachaf: here's a puzzle: why can you do memcpy(buf, vsyscall, 4096); write(1, buf, 4096);
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03:01:04 <kmc> but not write(1, vsyscall, 4096);
03:01:05 <shachaf> elliott: Wait, it's not an existential type.
03:01:19 <kmc> (where char *vsyscall = (char*) 0xffffffffff600000)
03:01:23 <shachaf> kmc: I was just wondering about that earlier!
03:01:50 <kmc> do you want the answer?
03:02:54 <shachaf> The funny part is that the behavior of fwrite() changes depending on whether you printfed some text previously.
03:03:05 <shachaf> Because if you do then it copies the page into a buffer, I guess.
03:03:56 <kmc> heh, nice!
03:04:05 <kmc> i didn't think about that
03:04:11 <shachaf> That was a strange bug to track down.
03:04:24 <kmc> keep that one in mind for the devious code contest
03:04:58 <kmc> shachaf: here is my vdso dumper: https://gist.github.com/2799304
03:05:16 <kmc> (unlike vsyscall you don't need an intermediate buffer)
03:05:38 <shachaf> I parsed /proc/self/maps in C. :-(
03:05:59 <shachaf> High-level languages should have easy unsafe-memory-access primitives!
03:07:28 <kmc> that's why i love ctypes!
03:07:37 <kmc> look at my python vdso dumper
03:07:47 <kmc> unsafe memory access is pretty easy in Haskell, too
03:11:45 <shachaf> Hmm, so it's not just because it's a high address.
03:15:20 <shachaf> No, I just forgot to pass MAP_FIXED to mmap.
03:16:51 <kmc> yeah, the reason (aiui) is that the kernel checks the pointer argument to 'write' to make sure it's below the user/kernel cutoff
03:17:07 <kmc> and the generic code which does that doesn't know that userspace is allowed to read this one high-mapped page
03:17:14 <kmc> but the page tables do know that, so memcpy works fine
03:17:59 <shachaf> I just used while (ptr < end) putchar(*ptr);
03:19:15 <kmc> elliott: yeah
03:19:30 <elliott> someone should fix said generic code
03:19:39 <kmc> more generally, it's gross that the kernel has to duplicate the page table's knowledge about what userspace is allowed to read
03:19:49 <shachaf> elliott: But the performance penalty!
03:19:52 <kmc> though linux only does this at a coarse level
03:19:55 <shachaf> I mean, it's not as if it actually matters.
03:20:00 <elliott> shachaf: i don't care if it slows the system down by half
03:20:11 <kmc> if you pass a faulting userspace address to write(), that does indeed trigger a pagefault in ring 0 code
03:20:18 <elliott> kmc: does it really "have" to do that
03:20:56 <kmc> but the pagefault handler knows that faults on certain kernel instructions should translate to "set this flag" rather than "kill the process and BUG the fuck out"
03:21:55 <kmc> fixing access_ok to know about vsyscall is dumb because nobody actually cares and because making that code more complicated will harm security
03:22:08 <kmc> the performance wankers would all switch over to ____do_real_access_ok()
03:22:18 <kmc> and then there would be a bug in that
03:22:20 <elliott> i think it's literally a trivial change to the point of not harming security
03:22:28 <elliott> because it's one single page on one platform
03:22:45 <shachaf> elliott: But no one cares.
03:22:46 <kmc> you should fork linux on github
03:22:48 <kmc> and make this one change
03:22:57 <shachaf> And submit a pull request via GitHub!
03:23:04 <elliott> and post stupid meme images in it
03:23:08 <elliott> and post it to proggit and hn
03:23:13 <elliott> and wait for people to flame linux for being so behind-the-times
03:23:30 <elliott> anyway i might send a patch to lkml
03:23:47 <shachaf> "dec eax; mov eax, 0x60; syscall; ret"
03:24:05 <shachaf> elliott: You already know the response to the patch will be "no one cares".
03:24:18 <elliott> shachaf: maybe linus will see it and merge it
03:24:24 <zzo38> Why do they need to decrement eax register there?
03:24:36 <elliott> doesn't decrement do stuff to the higher part of rax there
03:24:40 <zzo38> Does it have anything to do with the flags for zero condition and so on?
03:24:40 <shachaf> It might be that that zeros the upper half of the register or something?
03:24:58 <shachaf> I remember that rax/eax /= eax/ax in that respect.
03:25:01 <itidus21> this is why i don't like assembly language
03:26:30 <madbrr> I think in 64 bit writing to eax zeroes the higher bits
03:27:19 <madbrr> but mov also zeroes them
03:27:22 <kmc> doesn't mov eax, 0x60 do that
03:27:31 <shachaf> I want an x86 assembly REPL. :-(
03:27:40 <kmc> shachaf: where did you find that code
03:27:44 <itidus21> (to give it an abbot and costello sense of confusion)
03:27:56 <kmc> hmm mine doesn't have
03:28:07 <zzo38> shachaf: Is the DOS DEBUG good enough? Maybe not as it is not a proper REPL
03:28:19 <shachaf> kmc: You can probably guess what went wrong. :-)
03:28:24 <elliott> madbrr: Repeat enter p-list. It's an x86 instruction.
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03:28:36 <kmc> shachaf: wrong disassembly mode?
03:28:56 <shachaf> Which is the 64-bit register prefix.
03:29:06 <shachaf> Or something along those lines.
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03:30:04 <shachaf> kmc: How's your libcless server going?
03:31:19 <kmc> one day i will share it
03:31:32 <kmc> but it's even more pointlessly "look at how hardcore i am" than most of the stuff i share
03:31:44 <kmc> i was hoping for it to be a sort of easter egg in another thing
03:31:46 <kmc> but that didn't work out
03:31:52 <shachaf> Oh, now I know why I had to use mmap2() instead of mmap().
03:32:19 <shachaf> "exciting linux history lesson"
03:32:58 <kmc> what were you using mmap for?
03:33:11 <elliott> kmc: by the way there is a text form of CC0
03:33:21 <elliott> http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/legalcode.txt
03:33:40 <shachaf> (In a debugged process, from the debugger.)
03:33:45 <shachaf> (So I used the syscall number.)
03:33:49 <zzo38> Probably in case public domain doesn't work in some country
03:33:56 <elliott> kmc: also you forgot to waive warranty, see http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CC0_FAQ#May_I_apply_CC0_to_computer_software.3F_If_so.2C_is_there_a_recommended_implementation.3F
03:33:56 <kmc> zzo38: yeah, that is why CC0 exists
03:34:07 <kmc> i thought that was already in there
03:34:28 <kmc> i'm pretty sure i checked
03:34:54 <zzo38> Does CC0 waive contract rights related to copyright?
03:35:00 <kmc> "Affirmer offers the Work as-is and makes no epresentations or warranties of any kind concerning the Work, express, implied, statutory or otherwise, including without limitation warranties of title, merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose, blah blah blah blah blah"
03:35:20 <elliott> kmc: i think the point is to make the warranty disclaimer visible
03:35:25 <elliott> rather than at the bottom of a huge license
03:35:28 <elliott> where it might not hold up
03:35:39 <elliott> THIS IS WHY YOU WRITE IT ALL IN CAPITALS
03:35:42 <kmc> i hate the whole "every source file must start with 3 paragraphs of boilerplate" thing
03:35:45 <kmc> so i don't do it
03:35:50 <elliott> meh, don't bother adding it to a source file
03:35:52 <kmc> i guess one day oracle will sue me for all my meager savings
03:35:57 <elliott> just put the boilerplate text in LICENSE
03:36:04 <elliott> and download CC0 to CC0.txt or something
03:36:12 <kmc> that's not a bad idea
03:36:19 <elliott> i don't add things to source files either
03:36:26 <elliott> if a court ever rules it's required i'll give up programming
03:36:36 <shachaf> elliott: Didn't you already give up programming?
03:36:37 <elliott> or switch to writing proprietary software
03:36:52 <zzo38> For example, you might be in a contract to make something you own the copyright to belonging to them instead. But that would be impossible with public domain.
03:36:54 <shachaf> kmc: You should add a thing to autoconf where it asks you to accept a license.
03:37:00 <kmc> if a court ever rules it's required i will personally teabag everyone in the courtroom
03:37:07 <kmc> "checking if user agrees to the license... yes"
03:37:11 <shachaf> And it makes you scroll all the way down to the bottom before giving you "yes/no" options.
03:37:19 <itidus21> elliott: or you can start coding underground
03:37:24 <shachaf> Even if the license is GPLv2 every time.
03:37:31 <kmc> i like itidus21's idea
03:37:42 <kmc> if you release software anonymously then nobody can come after you for warranty
03:37:49 <kmc> also you can cultivate a mysterious cult of personality
03:38:02 <itidus21> oh uh.. yeah that was exactly my idea
03:39:25 <kmc> provides self-referential description of activity
03:40:06 <shachaf> "provides self-referential description of activity when typed in irc"
03:40:19 <shachaf> That one doesn't even work.
03:40:31 <kmc> minding the gap since 1996
03:40:35 <shachaf> Why isn't this server crashing. :-(
03:40:35 <zzo38> Does CC0 deal with this problem of contracts at all?
03:40:55 <shachaf> kmc: I got the mysterious crash a second time, but the HTTP request was completely boring.
03:41:09 <itidus21> shachaf: first you must realize, there is no server
03:41:11 <shachaf> Now I enabled core dumps (I think) and am stracing everything rather than just network.
03:42:22 <elliott> kmc: mosh is too many files. Can you make it one file instead?
03:42:40 <shachaf> elliott: I recommend sqlite.c
03:42:40 <kmc> here you go: http://git.io/o_7nKw
03:42:56 <kmc> it is in codepage 437!
03:42:59 <shachaf> elliott: Just pass it to base64.
03:43:03 -!- TheJimmyJames has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:43:31 -!- TheJimmyJames has joined.
03:43:47 <MDude> Would a contract be able to force you to retract a liscense that gives no conditions under which it may be retracted? I would think that wouldn't make sense.
03:43:53 <HackEgo> TheJimmyJames: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:44:01 <elliott> kmc: https://github.com/keithw/mosh/issues/120 +1 +1 +1
03:45:04 <elliott> kmc: another mosh question for you!!!
03:45:10 <elliott> does the mosh client build on Windows?
03:45:28 <lambdabot> http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2011/01/05/are-mosh-and-jupiter-windows-8s-killer-features/
03:45:28 <lambdabot> Title: Are ‘Mosh’ and ‘Jupiter’ Windows 8′s killer features? - The Next Web
03:45:32 <shachaf> mosh: Windows 8's killer feature
03:46:11 <shachaf> "The current Mosh 1.2 release candidate officially supports building from source on Cygwin. Please try it and report back with any problems." - kmcallister "kmc" mckmc
03:46:38 <itidus21> lol lambdabot.. you have really outdone yourself
03:47:03 <shachaf> «According to Paul, Mosh is a “new tile-based user interface.”»
03:48:26 <lambdabot> http://www.ibiblio.org/freebiblecommentary/pdf/EN/VOL05.pdf
03:48:56 <elliott> shachaf: Cygwin doesn't count.
03:49:50 <monqy> i love immersive apps
03:50:27 <madbrr> also that's like 1½ years old
03:51:08 <itidus21> ahh i was getting mosh confused with mush
03:51:28 <madbrr> presumably, the so called mosh and jupiter stuff are metro
03:51:45 <shachaf> Also programs that are written in C are such a mess.
03:52:10 <zzo38> Does CWEB make it better?
03:52:36 <kmc> "Elegance is not a dispensable luxury but a quality that decides between success and failure" -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
03:52:39 <zzo38> And what is wrong with CGI?
03:52:44 <kmc> you know, as much as this is the kind of thing i *want* to be true
03:52:52 <kmc> i don't really believe it is
03:53:05 <kmc> unless you read "decides" to mean "has some small influence"
03:53:09 <madbrr> shachaf: but if you want to write cpu efficient code then C++ is practically the only way
03:53:22 <kmc> or define "success" to be "producing an elegant system"
03:53:33 <monqy> madbrr: um,,,,,asm!!!!
03:53:34 <zzo38> If you want to write CPU efficient code, there is assembly language. But that is only for the specific CPU.
03:53:42 <monqy> madbrr: "gotta get close to that hard ware"
03:53:50 <zzo38> For working with many computers, you use C or LLVM.
03:53:57 <shachaf> kmc: Overoptimizing for elegance often has an influence in the opposite direction. :-)
03:53:59 <elliott> responding to messages that take a message referring to C and then refer to C++ in response considered "dumb"
03:54:01 <monqy> the hardware is within 1 inch
03:54:05 <monqy> the hardware is within 1 um
03:54:11 <coppro> things I dislike about Haskell: rewriting code into the IO monad is annoying
03:54:16 <monqy> the u is a mu i just cant type mus
03:54:32 <zzo38> coppro: How do you mean?
03:54:56 <kmc> madbrr: most programs don't need maximum CPU efficiency
03:55:07 <kmc> and even the ones that do, they need it only in a small fraction of the code
03:55:15 <elliott> are you really going to start a serious argument in reply to that statement
03:55:34 <monqy> was my argument not serious :'(
03:55:40 <coppro> I am, for my own personal amusement, writing an IRC bot framework. The obvious way is have a String -> String function that runs the bot, and internal modules in the State monad.
03:55:49 <shachaf> You can't be efficient without templates!
03:55:54 <elliott> coppro: that's the wrong way, fwiw
03:55:57 <zzo38> kmc: TeX: The Program does describe some things needing much efficiently in the "inner loop"
03:55:58 <shachaf> madbrr: um,,,,,,asm doesn't have tempalte!!!!!
03:56:00 <monqy> coppro: is it cpu efficient
03:56:04 <elliott> for a start you're depending on lazy io off the bat which is probably not a good idea
03:56:14 <coppro> But then, of course, the modules cannot do IO themselves
03:56:28 <monqy> shachaf: templates are far from the hardware and slow!!! !
03:56:46 <madbrr> afaik asm is barely faster on out of order architectures
03:56:47 <shachaf> monqy: Then why does C++ have them?
03:56:52 <zzo38> You could use (StateT s IO) monad if you will do IO too
03:56:53 <madbrr> unless you're doing SIMD
03:56:58 <elliott> "(This is analogous to screen, in which C-a a sends a literal C-a. The reason this is a good idea is so sending the escape character through a stack of n moshes or screens doesn’t take 2^n keystrokes.)"
03:57:02 <elliott> kmc: now you have n problems
03:57:03 <coppro> stuffing them inside StateT foo IO is the correct way to make them able to do IO
03:57:13 <elliott> coppro: for certain values of correct, sure
03:57:18 <elliott> StateT foo IO is often a bad idea
03:57:20 <coppro> elliott: what do you suggest?
03:57:28 <monqy> shachaf: im checkmate :[
03:57:31 <elliott> I wouldn't model a bot as String -> String in the first place
03:57:41 <coppro> elliott: No, but an IRC conversation is.
03:57:42 <monqy> ~c++ enlighten me~
03:57:43 <elliott> or String -> IO String (<-- this wouldn't work at all actually)
03:57:58 <shachaf> elliott: larrytheliquid wrote an IRC bot in Agda!!!!!!
03:58:10 <MDude> It's true, string -> string ignroes timing, for one thing.
03:58:12 <shachaf> s/modeled/sort of modeled/
03:58:19 <coppro> MDude: You take advantage of laziness.
03:58:43 <elliott> which is completely separate from laziness
03:58:54 <elliott> (for anything other than toy programs, at least)
03:59:12 <MDude> I'm unfortunately too going to bed to talk about bots now.
03:59:17 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
03:59:23 <elliott> it has some semantic iffiness
03:59:34 <kmc> yay it's just like i'm back in #haskell
03:59:34 <elliott> it destroys more or less any hope of reasonable resource management
03:59:45 <elliott> kmc: it's my present for your apology
04:01:24 <elliott> (because you never know when the resources get cleaned up)
04:01:30 <elliott> (because it's tied to when a certain piece of pure data is evaluated)
04:01:45 <itidus21> monqy: shachaf: i think that the most efficient way to code is to magically never have to refer back to previously written code. in addition it should all be written in shorthand.
04:01:57 <elliott> anyway the reason StateT foo IO is often a bad idea is because it works just as well to use MVars/TVars inside IO
04:02:06 <elliott> and is required if you, e.g. ever want any kind of concurrency
04:02:09 <monqy> itidus21: use 1 letter variable names so the computer can read them faster
04:02:15 <shachaf> elliott: Except you have to pass the MVars around!!!!!!
04:02:22 <elliott> shachaf: ReaderT (MVar foo) IO!!!!!
04:02:26 <elliott> spoiler is: sometimes passing them around is easier
04:02:53 <elliott> coppro: anyway i would probably model an irc bot as Conduit IRCMessage IO IRCMessage or something but ha ha it is probably not best to learn conduits right now
04:02:58 <elliott> (or enumerators or pipes or w / e)
04:03:03 <shachaf> > (compare `on` take 3) "monqy" "monad"
04:03:22 <kmc> i can only assume that new iteratee libraries have been invented at a rate of roughly one per day since i stopped paying attention
04:03:33 <kmc> i think the tubulon iteratoolios are the best
04:03:47 <elliott> you were around for conduits and pipes kmc
04:04:16 <kmc> loud pipes save lives
04:04:25 <elliott> is there any hope of the mosh client compiling for windows without cygwin
04:04:27 <itidus21> monqy: i'm serious of course. a preference for elegance isn't a personality flaw, but just a mathematical problem waiting to be analyzed.
04:04:37 <kmc> elliott: if someone who knows and cares about windows makes it happen, sure
04:04:47 <elliott> kmc: great! i am neither of these things
04:04:51 <kmc> none of the current core mosh developers know windows or care about windows or like windows
04:04:54 <elliott> rephrase: how many posix calls does mosh use
04:05:02 <kmc> we're happy to take patches though
04:05:05 <kmc> elliott: a fair number
04:05:39 <elliott> the subtext is: i wish there was like a putty fork with mosh support so it was more useful to me
04:05:58 <itidus21> coding should be done in such a way that simply don't have to look back on code which has been written, ever.
04:06:06 <elliott> more like "the real thing is:"
04:06:18 <kmc> itidus21: ………
04:06:37 <coppro> elliott: how much do you actually code in Haskell?
04:06:48 <Sgeo> elliott uses Windows?
04:07:23 <Sgeo> itidus21, so, working on Human 2.0 to try to make that possible?
04:08:18 <Sgeo> itidus21, suppose that there's a bug...
04:08:27 <elliott> coppro: 99% of the new programs i write are haskell
04:08:32 <elliott> coppro: i don't program much right now
04:08:38 <elliott> sometimes i don't program much at all
04:08:44 <elliott> but when i do it's usually patching someone else's code or haskell
04:08:50 <elliott> and i toy about in haskell a bit
04:08:58 <coppro> I keep wondering how you retain all this stuff
04:08:58 <elliott> i have also answered a lot of haskell questions on stack overflow :p
04:09:15 <elliott> coppro: it's been like... 3, 4 years since i started programming haskell
04:09:29 <elliott> and also i used to hang out in #haskell a lot (but i don't recommend doing this any more)
04:10:04 <elliott> #haskell is interesting now if you can answer all the newbie questions that come up quickly, identify and ignore terrible stuff, and like talking to people who know haskell a lot, but not so much if you're not already experienced
04:10:25 <zzo38> O, that is what they do?
04:10:41 <kmc> my problem is that (like everyone else) i want to explain things *my* way
04:10:49 <kmc> and i got sick of fighting about which explanation is best
04:10:49 <coppro> elliott: actually, Conduit doesn't look so bad
04:10:57 <zzo38> The question of how to make (IO x) into (x) is very common by people who do not understand Haskell
04:11:05 <elliott> coppro: yes. (conduit is wrong in several respects)
04:11:08 <elliott> (but other libraries are wrong too)
04:11:28 <elliott> (the main reason not to learn conduit now is because there are like 4 libraries for doing roughly the same thing right now)
04:16:20 <elliott> does anyone know of a server that just does ssh authentication but isn't tied to unix users
04:16:29 <elliott> and instead of starting a shell just starts a command with the info it got or such
04:16:37 <elliott> so it has a separate user/password/pubkey database
04:17:43 <itidus21> "The question of whether Machines Can Think... is about as relevant as the question of whether Submarines Can Swim." ~ Edsger W. Dijkstra
04:18:39 <zzo38> Yes, it does seem a similar kind of question
04:19:52 <itidus21> "Don't blame me for the fact that competent programming, as I view it as an intellectual possibility, will be too difficult for "the average programmer" you must not fall into the trap of rejecting a surgical technique because it is beyond the capabilities of the barber in his shop around the corner." ~ Edsger W. Dijkstra
04:19:57 <coppro> elliott: unless you suggest me a good library to use ima go do something stupid
04:20:27 <elliott> the great thing about stupid things in haskell is that they break :P
04:20:38 <elliott> imo you should model the bot as String -> String and use unsafePerformIO internally!!!
04:20:51 <elliott> how many exclamation marks do i need to convey sarcasm!!!!!!!
04:21:51 <coppro> elliott: yes, but the question about the breakage is where they break
04:22:23 <zzo38> I have now added support for timers and time limits to Internet Quiz Engine.
04:22:30 <coppro> specifically, do they break before or after I am done with them
04:28:15 <coppro> but I mean specifically when will I encounter that :)
04:28:26 <coppro> so why do you recommend against conduit, then?
04:29:31 <zzo38> Do you like "abstract nonsense"?
04:30:05 <elliott> but I wouldn't learn it at the stage I imagine you're at
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04:30:33 <zzo38> Do you like Internet Quiz Engine?
04:31:45 <coppro> elliott: I'm slightly more advanced than you seem to think.
04:31:53 <coppro> elliott: it really does not look all that hard.
04:32:08 <elliott> I would still not recommend learning it
04:32:17 <elliott> especialyl since you'll need to use supporting libraries to pull off an irc bot effectively with it
04:32:42 <itidus21> zzo38: can your question be modelled in lambda calculus?
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04:33:00 <zzo38> itidus21: Probably not.
04:33:23 <itidus21> i either say yes or no or nothing
04:34:06 <zzo38> Who is TheJimmyJames?
04:35:06 <itidus21> "Do you like Internet Quiz Engine? Yes" becomes "You like Internet Quiz engine."; "Do you like Internet Quiz Engine? No" becomes "You don't like Internet Quiz engine."; "Do you like Internet Quiz Engine?" remains "Do you like Internet Quiz Engine?"
04:36:15 <zzo38> Obviously most people in this channel (myself included) are somewhat insane
04:37:14 <coppro> elliott: what sort of supporting libraries? Now that I look, the obvious thing seems to connect TCP =$= parser =$= bot logic =$= formatter =$= TCP
04:37:28 <elliott> writing the parser will be a pain without e.g. attoparsec-conduit
04:37:31 <elliott> formatter will be easier but
04:37:48 <elliott> i already have irc stuff for conduit written but i've been perennially terrible in getting it to hackage
04:37:56 <shachaf> elliott: What do you think of O_DIRECT?
04:38:18 <coppro> elliott: therefore it doesn't exist qed
04:40:55 <zzo38> Selector strings are quiz.menu*a (type 1) for the Internet Quiz Engine main menu, and textfile/miscellaneous/onlinequiz.txt (type 0) for the comparison chart
04:42:50 <zzo38> Have you looked at the quiz editor on OkCupid and/or played any quizzes on OkCupid? Internet Quiz Engine actually has many similarities
04:50:26 -!- elliott has changed nick to elliott_.
04:50:28 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine is free and open source software, it is written in C, it has no advertising or other annoyances, supports time limits, has versatile questions/responses/results, no registration is required, supports skipping conditional questions, can upload/download the quiz files, and uses low bandwidth.
04:51:38 <zzo38> Some of these features do not exist in any of the other programs I have reviewed.
04:52:46 <itidus21> you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines
04:53:20 <kmc> @remember itidus21 you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines
04:54:33 <zzo38> What does that mean?
04:55:06 <itidus21> the meaning is largely subjective
04:55:29 <zzo38> Well, Linux is also free and open source software written in C, but is that what you meant?
04:55:45 <shachaf> kmc: You should've used `addquote. :-(
04:56:00 <zzo38> shachaf: Then you use `addquote if that is what you want
04:56:15 <kmc> i just like "linux torvalds"
04:56:24 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> b'
04:56:36 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (f b))
04:56:36 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M6020407245...
04:59:07 <elliott_> `addquote <itidus21> you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines
04:59:10 <HackEgo> 845) <itidus21> you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines
05:02:56 <shachaf> Hello, this is Linux Torvalds, and I pronounce Linus as Linus.
05:05:26 <shachaf> elliptic: Try AuNO instead of FeDK!
05:06:04 <shachaf> gold > iron; norway > denmark; qed
05:06:47 <coppro> elliott_: alternatively, just hackage your goddamn IRC stuff ;)
05:06:52 <coppro> elliott_: also wake ais up
05:06:59 <coppro> I need to complain to him
05:07:08 <zzo38> The source codes for Internet Quiz Engine is 9KB; I don't know how long the codes of the other programs are since I have not seen them, but I guess most of them are probably longer and less efficient, because they want to add advertising and all sorts of HTML stuff, and some people write bad codes in general, and other reasons
05:07:26 <zzo38> I have Periodic Table of Elements on the wall in my bedroom
05:07:39 <shachaf> zzo38: Is Internet Quiz Engine written in C?
05:07:57 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes. You can even look at the source-codes if you want to.
05:08:55 <shachaf> --2012-05-26 22:08:48-- http://quiz.menu*d/
05:08:55 <shachaf> Resolving quiz.menu*d (quiz.menu*d)... failed: Name or service not known.
05:08:55 <shachaf> wget: unable to resolve host address `quiz.menu*d'
05:09:28 <zzo38> Try using this command instead: echo 'quiz.menu*d' | nc zzo38computer.cjb.net 70 > inquiz.w
05:09:41 <zzo38> You might need nc -q -1 depending on the version of netcat
05:11:24 <shachaf> Undefined behavior when you call inquiz with argc==0 !
05:11:50 <zzo38> shachaf: True, but it is never called that way.
05:12:06 <shachaf> I just called it that way.
05:12:28 <shachaf> But the error calls printf with %s, NULL.
05:13:05 <zzo38> It does. Well, still, it will never be called that way when properly installed.
05:16:25 <zzo38> The program is not meant to be run from the command-line; it won't work that way. It should run from a gopher server with the argument specifying the name of the configuration file, and the environment variable SELECTOR containing the selector string.
05:18:29 <itidus21> zzo38: just as a good bitmap renderer is best shown off with a landscape photo or a renaissance painting, the proof is in the pudding so to speak
05:18:34 <zzo38> You can, of course, set the SELECTOR using the command-line (you need export as well), but it doesn't really work well that way. Still, if you want to, you can make up a shell script or something else that sets SELECTOR and then formats the choices on the screen for local mode
05:18:51 <itidus21> a quiz engine lives off a diet of good quizzes
05:19:39 <zzo38> itidus21: True; currently there are only two files other than the example file, and that is why I ask you to add some if you have anything to add
05:20:55 <itidus21> a motivated individual i am not
05:21:35 <itidus21> but its easier on my brains than most other topics
05:21:37 <zzo38> Ah. Well, when I have some to add, I can add it myself; but usually I have none, so other people can add some instead if they can write some to add.
05:23:11 <itidus21> so the atom of the quiz is a multiple choice question, right?
05:27:05 <itidus21> The fictional city of Midgar and Pacman were both inspired by this: a)chocolate b)pasta c)pizza d)mushrooms
05:27:36 <monqy> I dislike mushrooms. chocolate,pasta,pizza can be good.
05:28:05 <itidus21> i know it's easy.. and maybe even a little dumb.. but that is the greatest quiz question the world has ever seen
05:28:44 <monqy> itidus21: what's the answer ?
05:29:14 <monqy> e)all of the above
05:29:16 <zzo38> itidus21: Well, it is a valid question which can be included in a quiz file if you want to, but a single question is not so good. Ask if you don't understand how.
05:29:43 <zzo38> Is it a pizza with a slice cut out?
05:30:00 <itidus21> heres midgar: http://cdn.dualshockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/midgar.jpg
05:30:23 <zzo38> I don't know Midgar
05:30:31 <monqy> shachaf: ew, mushrooms!!!
05:30:35 <zzo38> shachaf: O, yes, pizza can have mushrooms on it too
05:30:36 <itidus21> if you look at the picture then you know it
05:30:51 <monqy> it looks like a pasta
05:31:09 <zzo38> monqy: What kind of pasta?
05:31:25 <shachaf> monqy: do you like clouds?
05:31:33 <shachaf> HOW ABOUT: MUSHROOM CLOUDS??
05:31:49 <monqy> you've checkmated me!!
05:31:51 <zzo38> shachaf: Maybe, but what I mean by "What kind of pasta?", like, spaghetti, tortellini, bowtie pasta, short pasta, etc
05:32:06 <shachaf> monqy: Do you like 5-HT agonists?
05:32:06 <itidus21> shachaf: http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs29/f/2008/106/a/4/Mario_Mushroom_Cloud_by_shadowmcr.jpg
05:32:20 <monqy> shachaf: what's that
05:32:26 <itidus21> truly the internet has everything
05:32:41 <monqy> kmc: what's a 5-ht antagonists
05:33:07 <itidus21> he said agonist not antagonist
05:33:17 <shachaf> monqy: Actually I mean 5-HT_2A agonists.
05:33:19 <monqy> kmc: what's a 5-ht agonists
05:33:28 <monqy> kmc: what's a 5-ht-2a agonists
05:34:13 <itidus21> i know it's not a typo cos i remember there was this guy in a chatroom named agonistic
05:37:05 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:39:17 <madbrr> reading the bible testament
05:39:42 <monqy> if you sell it, will you get money ?
05:39:49 <monqy> I hear gems do that
05:39:50 <elliott_> i read the bible testament once
05:40:03 <shachaf> monqy: You can sell 5-HT_2A agonists for money.
05:40:06 <shachaf> But it's usually illegal. :-(
05:40:20 <monqy> I still don't know what those are !!
05:42:44 <elliott_> @tell ion <Sequell> 178460 games for hugeterm: 103206x Sebi, 8951x KiloByte, 8081x heteroy, 4165x Johan, 3489x ion
05:42:55 <elliott_> @tell ion you are one of the most prolific hugetermers ever. cease your evil.
05:43:23 <shachaf> is that like a hugepage :'(
05:48:36 <itidus21> "Tux Paint was designed in such a way that the user does not need to understand the underlying operating system or how to deal with files.
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06:05:50 <Sgeo> elliott_, have you seen Codelink? It's apparently a free (not sure if as in beer or speech) hollywood hacking game
06:07:13 <Sgeo> I.. think it's online multiplayer too
06:09:06 <Sgeo> "Goonies never say die!" (on the about page)
06:09:16 <Sgeo> Well, that really speaks to the professionalism of the author
06:11:28 <Sgeo> "Attempting to access game content from any means other than the Codelink Game itself will result in a server ban for life."
06:11:48 <Sgeo> "Only one account can be active per IP address."
06:12:40 <Sgeo> Don't make an account if someone's looking over your shoulders, the password fields don't obscure the password
06:12:59 <monqy> sounds like a good game
06:13:40 <Sgeo> I don't even want to do my typical "crap password" routine, those are still too valuable for me to trust to this place
06:14:04 <zzo38> What is your opinion about minimum wage?
06:15:22 -!- madbrr has quit (Quit: Radiateur).
06:15:53 <zzo38> I am against minimum wage.
06:23:35 <Sgeo> ...why is an email client in the hardware section?
06:24:14 * Sgeo connects to 0.128.0.1
06:25:31 <Sgeo> I'll play with it later
06:25:49 <Sgeo> I think the only tutorial is a video tutorial
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07:41:22 <elliott_> PatashuXantheres: You should name my branch!
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08:30:31 <elliott_> that was completely useless, I appreciate it
08:37:42 <itidus21> Elliott's Crawl II: a branch of no name
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08:44:01 <itidus21> Being Not So Much A Derivative As An Improvement Upon Crawl.
08:45:46 <fungot> itidus21: not giving up it's time slot do? interpret esolangs?
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08:55:04 <itidus21> A strange occurance by which one attempts to eat a tomato raw rather than use it in fish burgers
08:57:25 <itidus21> its amazing how good the sauces made from them taste
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08:58:34 <elliott_> no Phantom_Hoover evaporate into sun
09:00:28 <itidus21> a bit of salt, butter and toast and they're the greatest food ever invented
09:01:02 <monqy> did you know: I know the man who invented tomatoes?
09:01:07 <monqy> lesser-known monqy fact
09:01:11 <monqy> he's old now, of course
09:01:27 <itidus21> but on their own they're rubbish
09:02:06 <itidus21> it means you can wear oldman clothes
09:02:15 <monqy> i love oldman clothes
09:02:24 <monqy> when i was young i could not wear oldman clothes
09:02:29 <monqy> this is all the reason i need
09:02:57 <itidus21> i think i need to find visual context to oldman clothes
09:03:38 <itidus21> aha 1)cardigans worn with shirts
09:04:14 <monqy> oldmans have all the luck
09:04:19 <monqy> good thing i am an oldman
09:05:15 <monqy> oldmans luck strikes again
09:07:01 <itidus21> i don't know if that counts as a subverted trope :-D
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09:07:39 <monqy> oldmans are very subversive I'll have you know
09:08:05 <itidus21> and this... http://www.plefka.net/images/GrandpaChair.gif you get to wear all these things on comfy chairs
09:08:25 <monqy> get that creepo kid out of my face!!
09:08:28 <monqy> stop looking at me!!
09:08:44 <HackEgo> 349) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup
09:08:55 <HackEgo> 590) <elliott> Dear god stop staring at me. <monqy> no never <Phantom_Hoover> monqy is always staring at everyone. <monqy> it takes many eyes to do this but I manage <Phantom_Hoover> He is an inspiration to us all.
09:09:27 <itidus21> apparently the kids eyes are transparent
09:09:56 <itidus21> designed for display on a white background
09:10:43 <monqy> excellent deduction itidus21 !
09:10:51 <itidus21> not quite.. the very idea that they would leave the eyes transparent itself is quite creepy
09:11:25 <itidus21> they could play some kind of fire animation behind them
09:12:52 <itidus21> then you should avoid this https://ssl.catalog.com/~pennviewvisuals.biz/store/images/Grandpa%20&%20Bradley.jpg
09:13:43 <itidus21> ok ill try and get back to the topic
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09:15:06 <itidus21> so theres those woolen tops with the boring patterns you get to wear.. the flat-coloured tracksuits, the flanelette shirts
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09:17:26 <monqy> do i get to wear a toupee, or am I too old for that
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09:17:32 <monqy> does my pipe blow bubbles
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09:49:42 <rszeno> i'm curios, what do you think about this "Haskell Curry proposed combinatory logic as a logica universalis, but it ran into inconsistency problems. (I'm trying to use fuzzy-probabilistic truth values to get around that problem, but that's a different topic.)"
09:50:04 <elliott_> i'm not sure what you mean by it
09:50:28 <rszeno> is not my statement, somebody else
09:50:32 <elliott_> if the point is that "combinatory logic is tc" then yes sure
09:50:40 <elliott_> i don't know what the fuzzy stuff is about, sounds like nonsense
09:51:07 <rszeno> yes, this is my opinion too
09:51:31 <elliott_> i mean sure fuzzy logic is a thing, i have no idea how it relates to the consistency of a computational system interpreted as a logic at all though
09:52:16 <rszeno> imo is no connection, are two different formlisms
09:52:59 <rszeno> are few other things there, http://geniferology.blogspot.com/
09:53:15 <rszeno> unification - the calculus of concepts
09:54:01 <elliott_> hmm, AGI and an aforementioned statement about formal logic that makes no sense
09:54:05 <elliott_> my quackery meter just exploded
09:55:09 <elliott_> the pictures are pretty, though!
09:55:57 <rszeno> probably are from some books
09:56:09 <elliott_> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mWGkAr1Xo5Y/TH3kkjFPUjI/AAAAAAAAAag/O_IrFTLIagA/s1600/dannhyperassociativemap.png like this
09:57:46 <rszeno> they have some software, http://code.google.com/p/genifer/
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09:58:24 <elliott_> http://code.google.com/p/genifer/source/browse/haskell/Genifer.lhs yep, sure is a unification algorithm
10:02:00 <rszeno> hard for me to read haskell now, :) i didn't use it last two years at all
10:05:36 <rszeno> i can't separate latex from haskell, :)
10:06:29 <elliott_> there's more latex than haskell there :p
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10:11:57 <HackEgo> 446) <itidus20> to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent <oklopol> for instance stones are omnipotent, as they don't do anything, without exception \ 469) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly \ 470) <monqy> itidus20: i saw a dancing cgi skeleton named malaria. i danced and played with him.
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10:13:10 <HackEgo> 446) <itidus20> to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent <oklopol> for instance stones are omnipotent, as they don't do anything, without exception
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10:16:38 <rszeno> so i'm right when i say that genifer blog is a nonsense from begining to end?
10:17:42 <itidus21> rszeno: oh im just trying to show that i am a quack.
10:18:21 <elliott_> rszeno: most of it looks like nonsense to me
10:18:29 <elliott_> there is some stuff that makes sense but nothing of particular value
10:18:35 <elliott_> don't lose any sleep over understanding it :p
10:20:23 <rszeno> this look like a new religion, is annoying
10:21:24 <itidus21> rszeno: probably he has lots of mental problems.
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10:28:29 <itidus21> many of the posts says "posted by YKY" .. and this is the profile of YKY http://www.blogger.com/profile/15037419974603456698
10:29:36 <rszeno> is the leader of the group
10:29:42 <itidus21> under his interests is life extension
10:29:50 <itidus21> wikipedia defines life extension as: Life extension science, also known as anti-aging medicine, experimental gerontology, and biomedical gerontology, is the study of slowing down or reversing the processes of aging to extend both the maximum and average lifespan.
10:30:43 <itidus21> like, whats with his ridiculous pic.. who does he think he is :P
10:30:48 <rszeno> a little napoleon, imo
10:31:40 <itidus21> ok ok NOW look heer :o http://cybernetic1.blogspot.com.au/
10:32:02 <itidus21> posted by YKY "I was locked up in a mental hospital for ~3 weeks, "
10:32:31 <rszeno> i try two years ago to join the group but i give up when somebody said that YKY 'decide everything'
10:32:39 <itidus21> yes, he has been in a mental hospital!!
10:33:03 <rszeno> i wander why they release him
10:33:24 <itidus21> and his interest is extending lifespan
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10:42:50 <itidus21> well, i am not typical of this channel at all. and my own journals are a bit off the wall kind of like yky i suppose
10:43:52 <itidus21> i mean, i don't understand the topics of this channel.
10:46:01 <rszeno> i think i'm odd too, :)
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10:46:24 <elliott_> kmc: Wow, I search for a urxvt problem and get a mosh issue opened by you.
10:46:29 <itidus21> and i don't think mr yky understands his own topics either.
10:46:50 <elliott_> Are you still talking about that silly blog?
10:47:39 <itidus21> elliott_: i made the fascinating discovery that the guy who runs it has spent time in a mental hospital
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10:49:10 <rszeno> yes, but you didn't make a major simplification in the unification algo published in AIMA, :)
10:50:11 <rszeno> the point is that your could make sense, this guy just collect words from some books to impress people
10:50:37 <itidus21> rszeno: i think what he is doing is thinking aloud to himself via a blog..
10:51:53 <rszeno> some people from his group are really nice and have potential but ...
10:52:26 <rszeno> one of my friends told me about this
10:53:09 <itidus21> honestly i think he is as nuts as me..
10:53:10 <rszeno> i don't really care, i ask to be sure that i'm not mad, :)
10:53:39 <itidus21> and if you saw some of my absurd rants you would think thats cause for concern
10:55:18 <rszeno> if you show me one i promise i will tell you my opinion, honestly, :)
10:55:51 <itidus21> <itidus21> A strange occurance by which one attempts to eat a tomato raw rather than use it in fish burgers <itidus21> awfully bitter the tomato <itidus21> its amazing how good the sauces made from them taste
10:56:25 <itidus21> <itidus21> i think that the most efficient way to code is to magically never have to refer back to previously written code. in addition it should all be written in shorthand.
10:58:19 <rszeno> first is difficult to translate for me, i miss some details, but look like a matter of taste, nothing weird, imo
10:59:27 <itidus21> anyway, it's amazing what the imagination will come up with to replace lack of knowledge of a subject
10:59:30 <rszeno> second, i'm curios how can be done
11:00:33 <rszeno> new code, not refering means not reusing, that means reinventing over and over again?
11:00:53 <itidus21> i was talking bullshit, you see
11:01:24 <itidus21> it is quite often that people say things which are wrong
11:01:48 <rszeno> yes, i'm doing this too
11:02:32 <itidus21> basically i don't understand mathematics and YKY certainly doesn't either
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11:05:27 <rszeno> i try to know what i know, :) i think most of my life i learn, :)
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12:01:22 <Taneb> Installing an old game:
12:01:28 <Taneb> Reccomended disk space: 50 MP
12:01:33 <Taneb> 4294966277 MB available
12:02:11 <fizzie> 50 MB is quite much, too.
12:02:44 <Taneb> It's an ambitious 1997 game
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12:06:51 <Taneb> That was before I lived in Australia
12:07:22 <itidus21> i love how posting one word with a trailing ellipsis convey drama
12:10:10 <itidus21> is it on this list? http://www.csoon.com/top10097.htm
12:10:51 <itidus21> "Games released late in the year will have less votes. " whatever that means
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12:51:12 <Taneb> anarcho-capitalism is the second worst kind of anarchy
12:51:36 <Taneb> Anarcho-I'm in charge now
12:51:57 <Taneb> cf. Doctor Horrible's Singalong Blog
12:52:13 <nortti> speaking of anarchism have you heard of country named Free Territory?
12:53:40 <Taneb> According to my high speed wikipedia reading, it was disestablished in 1921
12:54:20 <nortti> by soviet union claiming it was ruled by dictatorship
12:54:51 <nortti> (Free Territory was only communistic contry that was really communist)
12:57:41 <nortti> it was anarcho-communistic state that had freedom of speech, press, assembly and unions and real democracy
13:04:15 <nortti> `cat /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp
13:04:17 <HackEgo> cat: /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp: No such file or directory
13:04:21 <nortti> `run cat /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp
13:04:25 <HackEgo> bash: /dev/dsp: Permission denied
13:05:02 <nortti> Gregor: why are you running bash?
13:05:24 <Gregor> Because bash is better than you.
13:06:08 <nortti> it is slow and bloated. why don't just use ash?
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13:21:57 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, is your computer on fire?
13:22:22 <Phantom__Hoover> It's near an open window to a garden, maybe a fly's doing it to mess with me.
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15:05:39 <ion> @tell elliott I haven’t actually played that many games, i simply did some stat rerolling on a friend’s puny game server whose stats got merged to Sequell later. :-P
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16:00:37 <nooga> the heap in OS X is executable
16:01:05 <nooga> even if you mprotect it to readonly
16:02:39 <olsner> obviously it has to be, exploits would stop working if they changed that
16:07:11 <coppro> elliott: Also, how would you manage state in an IRC bot that way? An IORef?
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16:15:29 <coppro> like terribad at things
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16:37:41 <nortti> Phantom__Hoover: I have never used. I'll try it out and say what I think about it later
16:39:14 <nortti> hmm. seems to be more memory hungy than busybox ash
16:39:54 <ion> I like zsh.
16:41:15 <ion> I also like https://github.com/robbyrussell/oh-my-zsh
16:41:15 <nortti> hmm. pretty nice shell but I kinda like busybox ash more. I can sometimes notice little lag with tab completition
16:41:32 <Phantom__Hoover> It is in fact possible to implement a fully-functioning HTTP server using only shell builtins.
16:42:00 <nortti> it has something like nc builtin?
16:42:05 <Phantom__Hoover> It doesn't have a man page; it has an index for seventeen seperate man pages.
16:43:03 <nortti> is there some big advantage over ash not counting user friendlines?
16:43:36 <nortti> also what does 3 in 3:~% prompt mean
16:43:49 <Deewiant> It does have the 'zshall' man page, which is a concatenation of the others.
16:45:00 <nortti> zsh: command not found: zftp
16:45:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Yes; I'm taking certain liberties here, because all this stuff /is/ modularised and has to be loaded first.
16:46:20 <nortti> Phantom__Hoover: do you know what 3 mean in 3:~% prompt
16:47:24 <Phantom__Hoover> You haven't tab-completed until you've tab-completed with spelling correction and keyboard-navigable menus.
16:47:58 <Phantom__Hoover> I don't remember; try zconfigure and obvious abbreviations
16:48:50 <nortti> zc ^I lists zcat zcip zcompile
16:50:26 <nortti> hmm. I kinda dislike zsh's tab completition
16:51:19 <nortti> ok shell and at least better than bash but I prefer ash
16:54:19 <nortti> I'd rand it above ksh but just below busybox ash
16:54:38 <ion> I love being able to type /u/s/d/zsh/RE<tab> and have that completed to /usr/share/doc/zsh-beta/README.
16:55:31 <ion> nortti: Did you try oh-my-zsh?
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17:00:52 <nortti> well it is kinda like tcsh for me. I could probably learn to love it but for now it feels strange
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17:43:36 <Vorpal> hm... how do you handle interrupts in Forth?
17:44:06 <nortti> what kind of interrupts?
17:44:30 <madbr> isn't that something you only do in dos programs?
17:44:40 <Vorpal> nortti, hardware interrupts?
17:44:50 <Vorpal> madbr, I'm targeting a 6802 here...
17:44:56 <nortti> Vorpal: what are you programming?
17:44:59 <ais523> presumably you just write pointers to the interrupt vector
17:44:59 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:45:03 <ais523> same way as you do in any other language
17:45:08 <lambdabot> elliott said 17h 51m 2s ago: glogbot's stupid timezone is UTC
17:45:08 <lambdabot> elliott_ asked 12h 37m 53s ago: wake up
17:45:18 <madbr> vorpal: You're lucky you're not writing assembly then :D
17:45:28 <Vorpal> madbr, well I might need some
17:45:58 <Vorpal> <lambdabot> elliott said 17h 51m 2s ago: glogbot's stupid timezone is UTC <-- hm? UTC doesn't sound stupid to me
17:46:17 <Vorpal> <nortti> Vorpal: what are you programming? <-- what do you mean?
17:46:20 <zzo38> I don't think there is any problem to handle interrupts in Forth
17:46:28 <Vorpal> atm I'm trying to figure out this Forth implementation
17:46:29 <nortti> Vorpal: what kind of program
17:46:38 <Vorpal> which means I'm not coding anything specific just yet
17:47:19 <nortti> Vorpal: there is no standardised way. you can write to memory locations with !
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17:48:04 <|evilliopttic_PA> 17:45:58: <Vorpal> <lambdabot> elliott said 17h 51m 2s ago: glogbot's stupid timezone is UTC <-- hm? UTC doesn't sound stupid to me
17:48:27 <|evilliopttic_PA> 23:53:50: <elliott> 00:51 <ais523> that'll be UTC not glogbot-stupid-timezone
17:48:36 <nortti> |evilliopttic_PA: what is with that nick
17:48:54 <Vorpal> it is annoying to type |. That involves altgr
17:49:31 <Vorpal> (altgr-<, where < is to the left of z)
17:49:47 <madbr> shift + key left of 1 on my kb
17:50:01 <madbr> \ is worse (altgr + key left of 1)
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17:50:22 <ais523> elliott: well I'm awake now
17:50:23 <Vorpal> madbr, shift-(key left of 1) gives me ½. That key in question without shift gives me §
17:50:24 <nortti> madbr: what kind of keybord do you have?
17:50:39 <ais523> this keyboard doesn't have a key to the left of 1
17:50:40 <Vorpal> madbr, \ is altgr-+ where + is right of 0
17:50:44 <Vorpal> madbr, Swedish keyboard here
17:51:10 <ais523> fun fact: many Americans don't realise what altgr is for at all
17:51:13 <nortti> I have finnish keybord wich is exactly the same as swedish
17:51:19 <ais523> because they don't have enough characters in their alphabets for it to be necessary
17:51:24 <madbr> ais: yeah classic :D
17:51:50 <madbr> ais: that's because they have a messed up way to write all the extra vowels over 5 :D
17:52:02 <Kray> standard Finnish qwerty keyboard doesn't have any alphabets behind altgr-combo either
17:52:11 <Vorpal> ais523, for me it is only required to type stuff NOT in Swedish, like \ £ @ $ { [ ] } ~ and so on
17:52:39 <Vorpal> and ~ is altgr-<a dead key I can't type alone, but which is used for stuff like ë> and then a space
17:52:46 <Vorpal> dead keys are annoying
17:52:56 <ais523> pretty much the same in the UK, the only keys with an altgr marked on them are | (not |, although I think they produce the same character on Linux) and €
17:53:03 <madbr> ^ and ` have to be done with dead key + space here
17:53:08 <ais523> there's a ¬ but it's shift-`
17:53:22 <Vorpal> ais523, "| (not |" <-- to me those look the same
17:53:33 <ais523> Vorpal: I think they're the same position in Unicode, on Linux
17:53:38 <nortti> I have to type ~ with dead key+space
17:53:43 <ais523> they generate different characters on Windows, and on DOS
17:53:50 <ais523> although different different characters on the two OSes
17:53:56 <madbr> nortti: altgr + ; here
17:53:57 <Vorpal> ais523, so which one is the one with the hole in the middle?
17:54:00 <fizzie> "Standard Finnish" is nowadays the new SFS 5966 "multilingual" one, and it does have letters behind altgr; though not letters used in Finnish, exactly.
17:54:04 <ais523> is that the same letter?
17:54:17 <shachaf> You should make it send 'е' instead.
17:54:19 <Vorpal> ais523, as far as I can tell, without using a hex editor on my IRC log files
17:54:33 <nortti> madbr: I have it as altgr+key two keys right of p
17:54:59 <madbr> you need altgr on us keyboard to type §¶µ I think
17:55:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, how does it differ from the Swedish layout (for the non-altgr parts I mean)
17:55:08 <shachaf> whoa, dude, I can send «» with AltGr-[]!
17:55:11 <madbr> but these symbols are kinda rare
17:55:19 <shachaf> I was using the Compose key all this time!
17:55:28 <nortti> shachaf: I have [ as altgr+8
17:55:34 <ais523> 0000000 68 6d 6d 2c 20 61 6c 74 67 72 2d 65 20 69 73 20 65
17:55:36 <Vorpal> shachaf, I can do that with altgr-shift-8 and altgr-shift-9
17:55:41 <ais523> Vorpal: looks like they are both actual ASCII e's
17:55:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: It doesn't. It only has altgry stuff for Sámi and whatever.
17:55:58 <nortti> |evilliopttic_PA: suggest something bettet
17:56:00 <ais523> (apparently, letters do actually pluralise with apostrophe-s in English, which must annoy pedants a lot)
17:56:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you use that layout?
17:56:17 <ais523> shachaf: «» are altgr-zx for me
17:56:30 <ais523> haha, altgr-8 is [ for me too
17:56:32 <Vorpal> ais523, that works too for me.
17:56:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Means they don't have to print out keyboards with different markings, unless they want to.
17:56:37 <ais523> even though [ is on my keyboard (not even shifted)
17:57:17 <Vorpal> ais523, ¤ is shift-4 for me. Utterly useless
17:57:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: Apparently not; this is some random Ubuntu-Finnish thing. E.g. it has ¼ as altgr-§, whereas SFS 5966 has some combining diacritic there. (It has more dead-key diacritics than the usual.)
17:57:41 <ais523> Vorpal: and why is that a useless character?
17:57:49 <ais523> I've seen it used as a metasyntactic variable for currency characters before now :)
17:58:00 <Vorpal> ais523, yes, and I never ever used it
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17:58:46 <Vorpal> ` is a dead key here, it is shift-<another dead key>
17:58:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
17:58:57 <Vorpal> so a lot of spaces required
17:59:15 <fizzie> Oh, I use the undead variant of the Finnish keymap, to be more accurate.
17:59:35 <fizzie> It makes ´`^~¨ not be dead keys.
17:59:40 <nortti> fizzie: why are you using zombie keymap
17:59:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, I thought that was an xkb setting?
18:00:09 <fizzie> I just got in the habit; I mean, it does mean less of useless spaces.
18:00:25 <fizzie> I can always do a compose key if I want to combine a ` with something.
18:00:26 <ais523> elliott: don't play Crawl?
18:00:35 <ais523> I think that's the only 100% reliable method
18:00:51 <ais523> oh, elliott's a logreader, and I guess he wants to know the answers to the same questions you do
18:01:02 <|evilliopttic_PA> if i don't then 48 hours will pass and someone else will kill it off instead
18:01:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm how do I write é and è with compose?
18:01:21 <kmc> compose ' e / compose ` e
18:01:21 <|evilliopttic_PA> anyway i'll just wield all the disto stuff i can find and inscribe things with random letters and place nonsense map exclusions everywhere
18:01:34 <Vorpal> kmc, I guess it doesn't work when ` is a dead key...
18:01:38 <ais523> will that actually /help/?
18:02:00 <kmc> i don't know then
18:02:18 <|evilliopttic_PA> monqy once wielded a disto weapon and then got berserked by xom (or went berserk himself, I don't recall) in front of a hydra with low HP on a round-robin character
18:03:42 <fizzie> I configured this via Gnome's keyboard settings thing; apparently the "Finland" variant there is very close to the new standard, while "Finland classic" is this random old thing, but there's only "Finland classic, eliminate dead keys", not "Finland, eliminate dead keys" available, and I haven't managed to care enough to make the correct thing happen.
18:04:09 <kmc> |evilliopttic_PA: ?
18:04:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, does the new one have µ on altgr-m?
18:05:02 <olsner> I just use the deadkeys variant of the swedish layout, but do all coding in american layout
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18:05:21 <Vorpal> olsner, that would totally confuse me
18:05:27 <Vorpal> (the american layout that is)
18:05:29 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21914
18:06:02 <|evilliopttic_PA> You said something along the lines of "I come in and you're talking about [Crawl], in a few weeks you'll be talking about [obscure thing]".
18:06:13 <olsner> Vorpal: it's nothing compared to trying to code with a swedish keyboard
18:06:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: Both ones have it. The new one has some shift-altgr extra quotes in the number row; the "proper" doublequotes and that « » thing.
18:06:58 <Vorpal> olsner, well, I wouldn't know where to find the keys :P
18:07:10 <Vorpal> but once you learn it, it is probably better yeah
18:07:21 <fizzie> It also has an em-dash in altgr-shift-m.
18:08:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, rather than º you mean?
18:08:07 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if figure dash is anywhere on my compose key
18:08:11 <ais523> not to mention minus sign
18:08:16 <ais523> there are so many sorts of dash…
18:08:33 <ais523> Æ’©ÐEªŊĦıJ&ŁºNØÞΩ®§Ŧ↑‘Ł>¥<
18:08:37 <ais523> ^ shifted altgr alphabet
18:09:06 <Vorpal> why is shift-altgr-s §? I have that non-shifted...
18:09:09 <olsner> Vorpal: I had to learn most of the american layout before that anyway, e.g. when using a computer before loading the swedish layout, or without it being properly configured
18:09:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: According to the keymap viewer, it didn't have anything in altgr-shift-m. º is in altgr-shift-5 here.
18:09:20 <olsner> so it wasn't a big switch to start doing all coding in american
18:09:27 <ais523> because altgr-s is ß, which is probably more likely for a Brit to type
18:09:36 <ais523> as it's a letter in German
18:09:39 <Vorpal> olsner, that rarely happens nowdays, unless you are installing really obscure distros. :P
18:09:50 <Vorpal> olsner, usually it is enough to know where / is
18:10:04 <ais523> I need to know the US layout because public terminals are set to it sometimes
18:10:04 <fizzie> I'm not sure I could really do the US keymap any longer, but I certainly did use to know it well enough.
18:10:14 <Vorpal> ais523, yes but on my layout I mean
18:10:37 <olsner> Vorpal: well, *nowadays* that's not an issue because I actively use the us layout anyway
18:11:16 <Vorpal> speaking of US layout, don't they have that horrible half-height enter key?
18:11:41 <olsner> yes, but your keyboard doesn't actually change when setting the layout
18:11:48 <olsner> so you'll keep your full-height enter key
18:11:49 <ais523> Vorpal: not always, just sometimes
18:11:58 <Vorpal> olsner, I was talking about in general
18:12:33 <ais523> keyboard layouts might be standardised, but keyboard /shapes/ aren't
18:12:57 <Vorpal> well, the standard full size PC keyboard is
18:13:13 <Vorpal> laptop keyboards not so much
18:13:45 <fizzie> I'm sure there's a physical layout in *some* standard, but that doesn't mean it'd be any standard that mattered.
18:14:28 <fizzie> They kept messing with the home/end/del/insert/pageup/down area recently, after all.
18:14:37 <zzo38> The backslash key tends to be differ on different keyboards.
18:14:39 <Sgeo> <3 the Trine OST
18:14:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah, that is quite horrible
18:14:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, trine 1 or trine 2?
18:14:47 <fizzie> There's the double-sized... is it ins or del?
18:14:50 <zzo38> I prefer the backslash to the right of the quotation mark
18:14:56 <Sgeo> Vorpal, um... did not know there's a Trine 2
18:14:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, what? I haven't seen that variant
18:15:05 <fizzie> And then ones that turn it from 3x2 to 2x3.
18:15:16 <Sgeo> Vorpal, and I don't think I like the game that much
18:15:20 <Sgeo> But the music's gorgeous.
18:15:30 <Vorpal> Sgeo, the game is gorgeous and really fun
18:15:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: One of them is double-sized, and the other moved up to the "useless" break/printscr/whatever row.
18:15:50 <Vorpal> only complaint I have about trine 2 is that the story was a bit meh
18:16:01 <zzo38> Everything else should just keep the Model M layout.
18:16:17 <Vorpal> but since it is a physics based puzzle platformer, the story isn't really the focus
18:16:20 <olsner> model m's come in several layouts though
18:16:21 <zzo38> If you do not need separate arrow keys from the numpad, use the original PC layout, but with indicator lights on.
18:16:50 <Vorpal> printscr is quite useful
18:16:52 <olsner> at least the enter key size and those 102/103/104 key variants vary between model ms
18:17:29 <Vorpal> |evilliopttic_PA, oh come on, I use del,home,ende,pgup,pgdown a lot
18:17:47 <Vorpal> and prtsc I use rarely
18:17:49 <|evilliopttic_PA> use a keyboard without them for a while yuo'l become much happier
18:17:58 <Vorpal> I actually used scroll lock a few times
18:18:05 <fizzie> Hey, they've released some new Optimus keyboard models. There's an "Optimus Popularis" that looks like a compact-sized variant of the Maximus.
18:18:19 <zzo38> I have used all the keys on the keyboard a lot
18:18:24 <fizzie> It probably still costs absurd units of money.
18:19:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the optimus keyboard?
18:20:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: That thing where each key is a small OLED display.
18:21:39 <ion> I’d love to have one of these, but they frigging cost like 1000 €.
18:21:44 <ion> http://youtu.be/_rzFqEqzhmA
18:21:54 <fizzie> One of their sample pictures is showing a keyboard where enter/shift are Kerplunk and Boom.
18:22:39 <Vorpal> ion, I tried using a MS natural keyboard thingy once, was awkward
18:22:47 <Vorpal> I'm sure it is great once you get used to it
18:25:44 <fizzie> |evilliopttic_PA: Perhaps you should use a custom keyboard made out of a Power Glove.
18:26:30 <|evilliopttic_PA> 19:26 <Sequell> 58. vorpal the Firebug (L8 DrFE), worshipper of Vehumet, slain by a killer bee on D:7 on 2008-02-06, with 1385 points after 9149 turns and 3:24:37.
18:28:12 <Vorpal> |evilliopttic_PA, I don't *play* crawl
18:30:58 <|evilliopttic_PA> ion: The top comments on that video are even worse than average.
18:31:35 <|evilliopttic_PA> Funny.. Such a "modern" and "ergonomic" keyboard still uses the QWERTY layout. Thousands of English words can be typed with only the left hand. Only a few hundred with the right. If you're typing in English, and using QWERTY, then not only will it slow you down, it will fatigue your left hand a hundred times more than your right hand.
18:31:45 <|evilliopttic_PA> do they not realise it is literally irrelevant what layout it is
18:31:55 <Vorpal> uh I don't get the point of ['] in Forth?
18:32:02 <Vorpal> how does it differ from '?
18:32:22 <ion> Btw, i love how the image of the “traditional keyboard layout” in that video is the Amiga layout, complete with the Amiga keys near Space.
18:33:31 <Vorpal> ion, also one connector on the back of the datahand looked like a serial cable to me
18:37:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: "If you want the execution token of word, write ['] word in compiled code and ' word in interpreted code." ['] parses the name at compilation time, and then compiles to something that pushes the xt. Or some-such.
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18:39:27 <Sgeo> I'll take you this way that way which way what way oh way my way her way his way their way its way some way any way
18:40:04 <Sgeo> Lyrics from a song
18:40:21 <Vorpal> seems like quite stupid lyrics to me
18:40:50 <Vorpal> they don't really mean anything sensible
18:41:24 <Sgeo> I see a way in which they could
18:41:35 <Sgeo> (Especially in context of the rest of the song)
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18:42:44 <Sgeo> I think "take" is being used in a sexual sense
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18:49:23 <nortti_> Phantom__Hoover: by the way why did you ask me about zsh
18:50:29 <olsner> the esoteric song contest was over days ago
18:51:12 <fizzie> I quote lyrics every now and then.
18:51:17 <fizzie> 2011-12-18 00:34:41 <fizzie> "Too many fingers / have I got in my hand / I think there happened a creature / an alien creature" -- paraphrasing some Finnish song lyrics.
18:53:17 <ion> What song?
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18:55:37 <HackEgo> 2007-05-02.txt:02:04:50: <GregorR> * pikhq has changed the topic to: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or ttp://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
18:55:50 <HackEgo> 2006-08-26.txt:20:21:18: -!- GregorR changed the topic of #esoteric to: the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion,
18:56:02 <fizzie> ion: The one that goes "Liikaa sormia / ompi mulla kädessä / taisi käydä olio / avaruusolio."
18:56:03 -!- |evilliopttic_PA has set topic: the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion,.
18:56:33 <fizzie> ion: http://www.byterapers.scene.org/scene-music.htm "Monta sormee?"
18:57:23 <monqy> i'm bad at guessing, but it looks awful
18:57:24 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:57:56 <oerjan> |evilliopttic_PA: not bad enough; several of the links may still work
18:58:46 -!- |evilliopttic_PA has set topic: It is 2005 and there is time to be the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment. http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:01:09 <ion> fizzie: File not found :-(
19:02:52 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
19:09:31 <zzo38> Have you made any file for Internet Quiz Engine yet?
19:12:58 <nortti_> what browsers do you (plural) use?
19:13:06 <fizzie> ion: Oh noes, their FTP seems to have borken. Anyway, http://amp.dascene.net/detail.php?detail=modules&view=6513 claims to have it also, but both opencubicplayer and mikmod barf on the XM file, even though 'file' says it looks just fine.
19:16:59 <fizzie> Hey, I have a mirror of my own.
19:17:22 <fizzie> Let me just dump that somewhere.
19:19:18 <oerjan> just don't break it. 7 years bad luck, you see.
19:19:46 <fizzie> ion: http://zem.fi/tmp/byterapers-modules-humorouscollection/
19:21:17 <fizzie> oerjan: If you make, say, six copies of a mirror, and then break the copies, does it count as 42 years of bad luck, or don't the copies count since in the grand scheme of things you haven't decreased the number of mirrors?
19:23:31 <oerjan> after you break the first mirror, bad luck will ensure the others count for at least 7 years each.
19:23:45 <ion> fizzie: Thankes.
19:39:01 <zzo38> nortti_: For web browser I use my own system which is Mozilla-based, although I prefer the command-line
19:39:37 <nortti_> zzo38: what kind of command line
19:39:58 <zzo38> UNIX command-line is best, although I use the Windows command-line as well.
19:40:48 <nortti_> I like unix command line, TWENEX command like is also pretty good and DOS is ok
19:43:05 <zzo38> At one place I sometimes volunteer at, I gave them a computer, and it has FreeDOS. I programmed it for them, in Forth.
19:44:21 <nortti_> zzo38: for what purpose did you program it to them?
19:44:27 <zzo38> However, there is still no printer. Do you know if there is any driver for FreeDOS to cause outputs to LPT1 and so on to be redirected to the USB port? In case, it is USB printer, but it still has to be PCL
19:44:45 <zzo38> nortti_: It is a database program
19:45:03 <nortti_> olsner: well I have used DOS since I was 7 so it has kinda grown on me
19:45:43 <zzo38> Also do you know what TeX distribution works on FreeDOS and includes a DVI->PCL program?
19:46:27 <zzo38> I don't need PostScript, PDF, e-TeX, and so on; I only use Plain TeX.
19:49:13 <zzo38> The computer that I gave to them, I also got it for free myself too, from FreeGeek; it came with Ubuntu and included CRT, keyboard, mouse, speakers. I didn't take the mouse and speakers and the FreeGeek also let me use their blank DVDs to copy FreeDOS so I could install FreeDOS on there too, and then I installed BBL/Abundance.
19:51:05 <zzo38> The license for BBL/Abundance says you can do absolutely anything you want, except military use.
19:51:08 <nortti_> that remind me how I uses FreeDOS as my main os for around a month
19:58:37 <zzo38> Does any terminal emulator allow you to push scroll lock to prevent the screen from automatically scrolling and make the arrow keys scroll the window?
19:59:17 <nortti_> I think xterm does but I am not surr
20:00:33 <fizzie> I used to use the 4dos command line, it was quite snazzy compared to plain DOS.
20:00:59 <fizzie> All those pretty coloured directory listings and tab-completions and whatnots.
20:01:27 <zzo38> Windows now has tab-completion but they didn't add those other things
20:01:43 <fizzie> Also if I recall correctly 4dos managed to use less memory than command.com.
20:02:25 <zzo38> Also, the Windows tab-completion works differently from the UNIX tab-completion.
20:03:50 <fizzie> 4dos had some amount of customization in tab completion, you could list what sort of extensions which command accepted.
20:04:03 <fizzie> 4dos.ini: FileCompletion=cd:dirs; unzip:arj zip zoo exe lzh dirs; pkunzip:zip exe dirs; arj:arj a?? exe dirs; lha:lzh exe dirs; zoo:zoo exe dirs
20:05:16 <fizzie> I also seem to have a colordir setting which says "doc txt me 1st" are text documents; the latter presumably for read.me and readme.1st files.
20:08:40 <fizzie> Oh, this DOS directory is such a mess of mess. There are different console fonts ans whatever here; those .com things that you run and they replace the current font.
20:09:13 <fizzie> (I had some trouble figuring out what "light.com" and "broadway.com" were, based on the name.)
20:10:06 <zzo38> Files with .DOC may sometimes be Microsoft Word documents, although sometimes they are plain text. Although READ.ME and README.1ST are nearly always plain texts, and FILE_ID.DIZ may be a short description of the downloaded archive in plain text format.
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20:10:49 <fizzie> There once was a BBS system that put their own "downloaded from" ad into each .zip file, in a file called "KALAA&LI.HAA".
20:11:05 <fizzie> That's Finnish for, basically, "FISH&ME.AT".
20:12:39 <zzo38> They really shouldn't modify the ZIP files; they should only read them to check for the existence of a FILE_ID.DIZ file (in the root directory of the ZIP), in my opinion.
20:13:13 <zzo38> They should also check for a ZIP comment and a password.
20:31:19 <zzo38> I have read that booster packs for some card games have a small chance to be entirely rares. TeXnicard supports this using the "n" flag in a deck list. TeXnicard also supports selecting without replacement ("k" flag) and requiring unique selections ("u" flag), but I do not know if any card games use these. Do you know if they do or not?
20:44:34 <zzo38> Do you like arithmetic IF?
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20:46:27 <zzo38> Arithmetic IF, not arimetric IF.
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20:48:33 <ais523> zzo38: I prefer short-circuiting if, it's more generally useful
20:48:45 <ais523> I prefer call-by-name semantics to call-by-value generally anyway…
20:49:34 <zzo38> This is one possible implementation of a stack-based arithmetic if in C: register_value v=stack_ptr[-3]; int n=v.number; n=-(n<0?2:!n); stack_ptr[-3]=stack_ptr[n]; stack_ptr[n]=v; stack_drop(); stack_drop(); stack_drop();
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20:50:01 <zzo38> ais523: That is useful, too, yes.
20:51:02 <zzo38> If you are wondering why this algorithm is so strange, I can tell you, the reason it is like this is for garbage collection to work.
20:55:16 <zzo38> dc doesn't use this but I think the design of dc would work better with the arithmetic if.
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21:21:54 <zzo38> nortti_: It does have conditional commands, but they aren't very good in my opinion; arithmetic if would be a better design to fit with the rest of dc.
21:23:32 <Gregor> dc is Turing complete.
21:23:53 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes, I think you are correct.
21:23:55 <Gregor> Its conditional execution is by conditional macro invocation.
21:24:05 <zzo38> Yes that is also correct.
21:24:33 <nortti_> it has? I didn't know that
21:24:40 <zzo38> It has 256 arrays and 256 scalar registers.
21:24:48 <zzo38> As well as a stack.
21:25:09 <Gregor> They're not really arrays, they're only accessible as stacks.
21:25:17 <Gregor> At least not by classic dc.
21:26:34 <zzo38> dc also has bignums.
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21:34:48 <zzo38> What kind of image manipulations commands should I include in TeXnicard? Some of my ideas include: convolve, blur, paste, blend, mask, ...
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21:39:12 <fizzie> Gregor: The : and ; commands that work on arrays are at least in Unix V7 dc man page; not classic enough for you?
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21:40:16 <zzo38> What I already have is that, there are ten bitmaps and ten graymaps which can be manipulated; TeXnicard never works directly on color pictures (the channels will be combined/separated upon export/import).
21:40:40 <fizzie> (Though the indices are limited to 0..2047 in that man page, so it's not an array of arbitrary size.)
21:41:02 <Gregor> Oh, heheh, I forgot that there were numbered arrays along with the named stacks.
21:42:36 <fizzie> My current man dc has a tie between the stacks and arrays -- "Note that each stacked instance of a register has its own array associated with it. Thus 1 0:a 0Sa 2 0:a La 0;ap will print 1, because the 2 was stored in an instance of 0:a that was later popped." -- but the V7 man page mentions that not.
21:44:11 <fizzie> (So in this dc at least there's 256 stacks of arrays.)
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21:45:53 <zzo38> I have implemented the XKCD variation of Deadfish in dc. (As far as I know, this is *not* the reason why the XKCD variation was invented; I do not know the real reason)
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21:48:25 <nortti_> hmm. could an OS be programmed in dc
21:49:43 <zzo38> dc does not support that
21:51:36 <oerjan> the xkcd variation was added by an anonymous ip which seems to belong to asiekierka
21:51:54 <oerjan> (based on signing on talk pages)
21:52:05 <zzo38> What reason was it added?
21:52:23 <oerjan> no reason given, just "XKCD!"
21:53:03 <zzo38> Was I the first one to use it? Was I the only one to use it?
21:53:11 <oerjan> anyway i just checked it as i remembered it being an anon ip, i wasn't expecting to find it was someone i knew from here
21:53:23 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't recall anyone else implementing it
21:53:41 <zzo38> Someone did say before it belong to asiekierka, but that still doesn't tell what reason it was added.
21:54:35 <nortti_> zzo38: why did you implement the xkcd variation instead of the normal one?
21:55:09 <zzo38> nortti_: Do you know dc? Maybe then you might understand. Look at the implementation code, and then you might understand, too.
21:55:36 <zzo38> It has to do with limitations in dc.
21:57:24 <nortti_> ouch. that code is definitely write only
21:59:19 <zzo38> Are you sure? It should be understandable if you can understand a dc code
22:02:26 <nortti_> I know it is understandable but so is all so called writr only code I have seen before
22:03:13 <oerjan> the channel logs show asiekierka was here that day and the previous, seemingly generally annoying people; he mentioned deadfish but not in connection with xkcd.
22:04:02 <oerjan> anyway i think the dc implementation is good enough reason for the xkcd version to exist.
22:05:53 <HackEgo> 2008-10-11.txt:07:02:22: <asiekierka> What xkcd style comic?
22:06:02 <oerjan> `pastelogs <asie.*xkcd
22:06:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2923
22:06:51 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I think so too, but that probably wasn't the reason the xkcd version was made up at first.
22:07:21 <oerjan> he doesn't seem to have mentioned xkcd since that day.
22:07:44 <oerjan> (or anywhere close to it)
22:08:28 <oerjan> zzo38: well given his general behavior then, i expect it was just a silly joke
22:09:38 <itidus20> the internet probably has cycles within it which correspond to our planetary timezones, days, seasons and years
22:10:11 <itidus20> ok correspond might be the wrong word
22:10:58 <itidus20> there is probably big cycles .. i guess that the popularity of a website is involved
22:13:46 <zzo38> Planetary timezones? Do you mean the rate of rotation of all the planets?
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22:16:28 <itidus20> whatever humans (and other life for that matter) does there is always cycles which constrain their activities. for example, sleeping at night due to the lack of light and sunlight. crops growing according to seasons. seasons being predictable in an order
22:17:19 <zzo38> Well, yes, I know that. The sun, moon, Earth's orbit, and Earth's rotation do affect all of these things.
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22:18:07 <itidus20> and i am wondering if such things lurk inherently in the internet, or if it is one monotonous industrial machine without such patterns
22:19:14 <zzo38> I have also heard that the human cycle of birth is more in the spring, but I do not know much about that.
22:19:34 <itidus20> maybe because it is manmade it doesn't have those cycles
22:20:10 <oerjan> i read today in the newspaper that women are most amorous in spring, while men are in late summer
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22:20:46 <zzo38> Even manmade things can have those cycles if they put them in; I think I read somewhere that some companies use lunar payment
22:20:47 <Sgeo> I've decided to install Enigma
22:20:51 <oerjan> it probably varies by climate though; this was a norwegian survey
22:20:51 <Sgeo> If it's not arleady installed
22:20:51 <kmc> itidus20 you sound like the voiceover intro to that tv show _Touch_
22:21:26 <zzo38> oerjan: Then, considering the different population of different places on the Earth, which sun sign would be more common for a person to be born during, and how much?
22:21:32 <itidus20> zzo38: but the very idea of artificially constraining ourselves is so weird..
22:21:53 <zzo38> itidus20: You do it if you have not a better way to decide
22:22:04 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't know, but someone has probably done the statistics
22:22:32 <itidus20> data-copying is the area i have in mind that we have to constrain ourselves, because data-copying is easy for us if we choose to do it
22:23:15 <itidus20> so many plugs and connectors consist mostly in how incompatible they can be
22:24:37 <Sgeo> It's in there!
22:24:42 <zzo38> itidus20: But that has nothing to do with the moon, isn't it?
22:25:30 <itidus20> zzo38: the good thing about the constraints the moon places on us is we simply have no choice.. we don't choose to be constrained by the sun and moon.. we just are
22:27:28 <zzo38> itidus20: Well, yes; with the sun and moon, they do affect us much. The other planets in the solar system do not significantly affect things on the Earth (although, I have read that there are some effects, apparently sometimes Jupiter prevents asteroids from destroying the Earth)
22:28:44 <ais523> itidus20: Jupiter is a much bigger target than the Earth is, both in terms of size and gravity well
22:29:02 <ais523> so celestial bodies which are on the sort of orbit that might hit things in the ecliptic are much more likely to hit Jupiter than Earth
22:30:34 <itidus20> i blame the coffee for this set of recent posts i just made
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22:43:50 <zzo38> Make a quiz file for Internet Quiz Engine, which is based on esoteric programming and the people in this channel, and then put it in the topic message
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22:47:02 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:51:43 <rszeno> a turing machine with one tape limited on one side allways start from first cell, right?
22:53:26 <ais523> I don't think it /has/ to, but people pretty much assume that it does
22:53:33 <oerjan> well unless someone needs it not to do so, but then they'd presumably note that it doesn't
22:53:35 <ais523> it starts from the start by convention
22:53:47 <ais523> hmm, now I'm tempted to make a pointless BF derivative that starts from the second cell
22:53:52 <ais523> and is otherwise the same as stock BF
22:53:57 <ais523> (we get a lot of pointless BF derivatives around here)
22:54:46 <rszeno> is any result which say that the two machine are equivalent?
22:55:15 <ais523> equivalent in what sense? computational capability, obviously
22:55:16 <oerjan> i'm reminded how you usually assume a stack language starts with an empty stack, but if you assume the stack is _not_ empty you can do things like that : drop dup dup - - ; definition mentioned yesterday
22:55:20 <rszeno> one which start to a random position and the one which start from first state
22:55:28 <ais523> ability to simulate, obviously if you're allowed extra colors/states
22:55:48 <ais523> if it's a random position rather than a specific non-first position, then they're equivalent because you can't move left anyway because you can't guarantee there's anything there
22:55:56 <ion> http://img2.demotywatoryfb.pl/uploads/201205/1338074103_by_admin_inner.gif
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22:59:27 <rszeno> i try to extend thue, and when i search for lhs in the input i get a list of possible positions
23:00:14 <rszeno> this make me think to start rewriting to a random position not first one
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23:02:42 <rszeno> rewriting result could be different in many cases, depend of the rule set
23:06:28 <rszeno> when i say equivalence i'm thinking to simulation
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23:08:20 <rszeno> mainly, same results after runing
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23:17:06 <ais523> oh, thue is rather different to a TM in the way it operates
23:17:35 <ais523> replace-at-random Thue (how it's defined) isn't more powerful than replace-from-the-left Thue (apart from being able to produce true randomness), but it is rather different in nature
23:19:33 <zzo38> Is there WEB-IDE, where, for example, you can click a chunk name to move the cursor to its definition, push a key for the table of contents, and so on?
23:22:22 <rszeno> ais523, i'm looking for the simplest solution. if the replace-from-the-left will give same result i will prefere this one
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23:23:09 <ais523> rszeno: well, it's a different language; you could convert a program written for one to run in the other, but it might be slower or more complicated
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23:26:21 <rszeno> i don't know if automatic conversion from one program to another is possible, probably yes
23:27:23 <rszeno> i'm curious if can be done using combinatory logic
23:27:48 <ais523> oh, automatic conversion from any TC language to any other is always possible
23:27:54 <ais523> although sometimes (often, in fact) it's rather ugly
23:28:46 <Sgeo> ais523, Brainfuck to Jot
23:29:02 <ais523> Sgeo: meh, I wrote a P'' interp in Unlambda
23:29:18 <ais523> it just looks like an interp for a tape-based language written in a functional language
23:29:30 <ais523> and obfuscated by the lack of useful variable names, etc
23:29:41 * Sgeo was referring mostly to the I/O thing
23:30:02 <rszeno> I/O is another problem i have, :)
23:30:55 <rszeno> i need some syntax, minimal, to describe the I/O flow
23:31:36 <rszeno> i had search on esolang for ideas
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23:39:16 <rszeno> well, i'm curios if this is a mad idea
23:40:37 <rszeno> if i have the grammar g1 for a language, P'' for example and another grammar g2 for another language, Unlambda
23:40:42 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
23:41:57 <rszeno> conversion from g1 to g2 is given by a formal system
23:42:46 <rszeno> but a formal system can be described using grammars
23:43:35 <rszeno> the idea is to use thue for all this steps
23:45:18 <rszeno> oerjan, i'm the Cat, :)
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23:50:11 <rszeno> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_%28formal_languages%29
23:51:50 <rszeno> i didn't know about this until few minutes ago
23:53:10 <rszeno> i fact i didn't know is named this way
23:53:33 <oerjan> me neither, but i recall reading about transducers
23:54:00 <Sgeo> Well, don't worry about all that, the world's ending today apparently
23:54:01 <Sgeo> http://www.the-end.com/
23:54:49 <rszeno> me too, Mateescu and Salomaa is subject learning in schools here
23:55:11 <oerjan> Sgeo: again? i've barely got over _last_ time...
23:55:42 <oerjan> i didn't learn it from a textbook though, i found it in a math encyclopedia
23:57:25 <oerjan> Sgeo: he seems to be trumpeting his theory there
23:59:33 <rszeno> will be four trumpets, i'm waiting to the 3-rd
23:59:41 <kmc> http://www.prophecysigns.com/assets/Images/chart16.jpg
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00:02:15 <HackEgo> BlueProtoman: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:10:28 <rszeno> imo thue is perfect for transducers
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00:26:24 <BlueProtoman> Anyone know why my Brainfuck loops aren't working? I think it's the way I'm storing the []'s in a table, I don't think I'm doing it correctly. Code's coming up/
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00:28:40 <Sgeo> It looks like it's doing more than checking loops
00:28:53 <Sgeo> is brace_table a global variable?
00:29:08 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: don't you need to save backwards jumps as well?
00:29:36 <BlueProtoman> I plan on implementing several Brainfuck dialects in my program. To do this, each dialect comes as a class that derives from AbstractBF.
00:29:51 <BlueProtoman> So the Brainfuck class has a std::unordered_map<int, int> brace_table.
00:30:18 <BlueProtoman> Each entry is a pair of braces; the ['s position is the key and the ]'s position is the element.
00:30:48 <BlueProtoman> When a [ is found, its position is recorded in brace_table, with its element initially being -1.
00:31:43 <BlueProtoman> While all this is going on, I'm pushing [ positions onto a std::stack<int>.
00:32:14 <BlueProtoman> When a ] is found, its corresponding key is found with find(), and then that element is set to the ]'s position.
00:32:27 <BlueProtoman> If any element is equal to -1, something went wrong.
00:32:51 <BlueProtoman> And thus we don't run the program. Problem is, I seem to be looping to the beginning of the program whenever I hit a [.
00:33:17 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: well the bug is probably not in the part you pasted, then.
00:33:22 <ais523> how does your program deal with jumping from a [ to a ] when the value is zero?
00:34:10 <BlueProtoman> It doesn't. I should fix that by testing whether tempbracestack is empty or not.
00:34:33 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: um i think he means when the _tape_ value is zero.
00:35:01 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: What do you mean the tape value? I don't quite follow.
00:35:30 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: for the standard brainfuck with a tape of cells
00:35:55 <BlueProtoman> I handle all BF instructions as function objects.
00:36:11 <BlueProtoman> But first I use a regex to filter out other characters.
00:36:42 <BlueProtoman> Here's my entire class. http://ideone.com/ZTTwA
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00:46:06 <oerjan> is instructions[program[currentinstruction++]]();
00:46:15 <oerjan> well defined behavior?
00:46:39 <oerjan> as in, is it guaranteed when the increment happens wrt. the function call?
00:46:53 <ais523> oerjan: I don't think the timing of the increment wrt the call is guaranteed
00:47:03 <ais523> although if that doesn't matter, it's well defined in other respects
00:47:17 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure it matters for [ and ]
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00:47:20 <ais523> unspecified rather than undefined, as in IIRC you're guaranteed that it will definitely happen either before or after
00:47:45 <ais523> and no, it doesn't matter, just go backwards to the first [ or ] of the group
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00:47:56 <ais523> (this actually works!)
00:48:11 <ais523> (I used the trick to obfuscate a BF interp for the IOCCC once, but it didn't win)
00:48:19 <oerjan> ais523: erm in the given code it matters, currentinstruction is used to look up the point to jump to
00:48:38 <ais523> oerjan: with [[, there's no way that the second [ can perform a jump
00:48:40 <oerjan> if it has already been incremented, that could well give a zero
00:48:44 <ais523> likewise, with ]], there's no way the second ] can perform a jump
00:48:57 <oerjan> ais523: erm are you even understanding my point?
00:49:05 <ais523> so for each [, you can just give the instruction after it the same jump target as the [ itself
00:49:15 <ais523> I'm understanding your point, but I think you're missing mine
00:49:32 <ais523> which is that you have enough information to determine where to jump to even with an uncertainty of 1 in the IP
00:49:44 <oerjan> ais523: sheesh. you're being irrelevant to the code we're actually trying to debug.
00:50:03 <ais523> oh, this is debugging? I thought you were trying to find a creative way to write a BF interp
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00:50:58 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: anyway, try putting the currentinstruction++ in a separate command afterwards.
00:50:59 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: If instructions (which is a std::unordered_map<char, std::function<void()>>) returns nothing, it'll throw an exception, which I catch.
00:52:08 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: that's not the problem. the instruction is found fine, but the code for [ needs currentinstruction to _not_ be incremented in between
00:52:24 <BlueProtoman> If it returns no function object, then we've hit a character that isn't a Brainfuck instruction, and was somehow missed by the regecx.
00:52:27 <oerjan> well assuming my guess is right
00:53:04 <BlueProtoman> OK, I'm getting somewhere. Still not finished, though.
00:53:25 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: my guess is that (1) the instruction for a [ is looked up, correctly (2) currentinstruction++ is incremented, too early (3) the code for [ breaks because of (2)
00:53:59 <Gregor> What's the third most relevant architecture beyond x86[_64] and ARM? PPC? MIPS?
00:54:10 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: For some reason, I get �� as my output.
00:54:17 <madbr> maybe some pic stuff
00:54:19 <Gregor> That is SUCH a distant third.
00:54:30 <pikhq> Gregor: All current-gen consoles use it.
00:54:35 <Gregor> pikhq: Yeah, that's true.
00:54:41 <kmc> Arduinos are a tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of all AVRs in use
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00:54:52 <kmc> PIC and AVR and their friends probably outnumber x86 and ARM by a large factor
00:55:09 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: what happens if you replace instructions[program[currentinstruction++]](); with instructions[program[currentinstruction]](); currentinstruction++; ?
00:55:11 <Gregor> I really mean general-purpose MMU-capable archs *shrugs*
00:55:17 <Lumpio-> Arduinos are expensive as hell
00:55:20 <madbr> but what ebout the amount of software written for it?
00:55:21 <Lumpio-> Why are they that expensive anyways
00:55:31 <madbr> are they still 50$?
00:55:34 <kmc> Lumpio-: there are plenty of cheap clones
00:55:35 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: I get garbage output, but no infinite loop.
00:55:38 <kmc> i thought they were like $30
00:55:47 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: ok scratch that then :(
00:55:58 <Lumpio-> I've come to see Arduinos as a representation of the new hipster electronics generation
00:55:58 <BlueProtoman> It means I'm on the right track, though, doesn't it?
00:56:12 <Lumpio-> Expensive as hell but buy is it hip and cool
00:56:17 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: well it means it changed the behavior, at least.
00:56:27 <kmc> Lumpio-: arduinos are reasonable development boards
00:56:37 * oerjan defers to real c++ experts, and goes for food ->
00:56:41 <kmc> if you build a project around an arduino and leave it in there, that's kind of silly
00:56:48 <Lumpio-> Yeah, but that's what they do.
00:56:53 <madbr> lumpio: haven't seen anything interesting sound synthesis wise from that stuff
00:56:57 <kmc> but really you're whining about someone spending an extra $20 here and there
00:56:59 <madbr> kinda disappointing
00:57:09 <kmc> these are largely people with jobs who make more than $20 an hour
00:57:23 <madbr> though I guess arduino isn't very good for audio anyways
00:57:38 <Lumpio-> Do the AVRS used in arduinoes even have hardware multiplication
00:57:53 <kmc> maybe they just want to make something cool, not spend all day soldering chips by hand to appease some crusty old electronics beardo
00:58:07 <kmc> basically you sound like more of a hipster than them
00:58:15 <kmc> "i was into electronics before it was cool and accessible"
00:58:38 <BlueProtoman> Any tips for my Brainfuck interpreter? I no longer get infinite loops with my output, but I do get garbage output (and I know that the program doesn't run completely). http://ideone.com/4dXq8
00:59:00 <kmc> this is like the people who whine about any software not written in C
00:59:22 <kmc> omg think of all the inefficiency, i'm using literally megabytes of memory, or 0.025% of the total available on my system
00:59:44 <rszeno> BlueProtoman, you are outside of the program, probably after it
00:59:46 <kmc> Lumpio-: to answer your question, no the ATmega328 and friends do not have hardware multiply
01:00:16 <Lumpio-> kmc: ...actually I wasn't into electronics before it was cool and accessible .__.
01:00:26 <kmc> Lumpio-: so you're a *poseur* hipster :)
01:00:28 <Lumpio-> I've barely even played with MCUs yet
01:00:54 <rszeno> look like reading a random place in memory
01:00:58 <zzo38> I do have ideas and plans to build a new computer, probably using an existing CPU architecture for practical purposes; if I could build a MMIX which is cost-effective I would do that; GCC already can compile for MMIX. However I will also need a GPU or DSP; can you recommend one which has Free software and can do audio and video?
01:01:25 <BlueProtoman> rszeno: I don't see how that's possible, since I have a check to make sure the program stops running when currentinstruction > program.size().
01:01:56 <kmc> Gregor: PPC is used in game consoles and a lot of embedded stuff, MIPS also used in embedded stuff plus Chinese government is pushing it, s390 / s390x still quite relevant in enterprise
01:02:16 <kmc> PPC might be the most common synthesizable core for FPGAs
01:02:17 <rszeno> i guess you change beaviour when you play with indexes
01:02:35 <zzo38> Why is Chinese government pushing it?
01:02:42 <Gregor> Wow, s390 still gets used?
01:02:57 <Lumpio-> zzo38: Because x86 is dominated by untrustworthy capitalist swine
01:03:32 <Lumpio-> They're making their own processors so they can have hardware spyware on them
01:03:38 <pikhq> Gregor: IBM doesn't believe in letting things die.
01:03:50 <kmc> yeah that's kind of the point of buying enterprise stuff
01:04:15 <Lumpio-> Lazy people use enterpricey stuff with long-term support.
01:04:18 <rszeno> imo is a bad idea to use oop and streams for this but probably is only my opinion, :)
01:04:20 <Lumpio-> True haxors live on the bleeding edge
01:05:03 <zzo38> Can you suggest the CPU, GPU, DSP to use?
01:05:09 <kmc> hmm actually the #1 (publicly known) supercomputer in the world is based on SPARC64
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01:05:35 <zzo38> Can we make a Checkout compiler to any GPU?
01:06:39 <madbr> is it possible to use a fast gpu from anything else than PC, ARM or PPC?
01:07:01 <Lumpio-> Does zzo38 even need anything besides a text mode?
01:07:34 <zzo38> For what I am making, it needs user-definable modes. The BIOS can include the text mode built-in
01:08:04 <zzo38> And it need to support composite video out, and preferably also component video out.
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01:08:33 <Lumpio-> What kind of resolution are we talking about
01:09:08 <zzo38> I could make a PAL version as well, but at first just NTSC
01:09:08 <Lumpio-> At any rate, that kind of resolution is not really hard to generate.
01:09:30 <Lumpio-> Make your own little GPU out of an FPGA or something.
01:09:40 <madbr> lumpio: sounds hard no?
01:09:55 <Lumpio-> Nah, NTSC is easier to generate and practically all modern TVs support it
01:09:59 <zzo38> Not only will an FPGA might be slow, but the ones I know of are encrypted and lack Free software
01:10:38 <madbr> designing a nice gpu that does something else than just regurgitate the content of the VRAM
01:10:40 <zzo38> FPGA might be slightly slow, possibly
01:10:46 <Lumpio-> And what do you mean encrypted, are you talking about the dev tools?
01:11:14 <Lumpio-> madbr: A RAMDAC is all a true programmer needs!
01:11:23 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Yes. Also the program to load into the FPGA is encrypted for all the ones I know of
01:11:30 <Lumpio-> What kind of stuff did you have in mind >madbr
01:11:44 <rszeno> zzo38, http://www.milkymist.org/mmone.html ?
01:11:52 <madbr> 3d is kinda hard so I was thinking more like tiles and sprites :D
01:12:26 <Lumpio-> Tiles and sprites shouldn't be /that/ hard
01:12:26 <madbr> tiles or other static layers aren't too hard actually, it's sprites that are hard
01:12:54 <Lumpio-> At least with the kind of power we have these days
01:13:15 <madbr> well, with the kind of power we have you can just use a framebuffer
01:13:42 <Lumpio-> Then again I've never done any video output more advanced than http://qp.virkkunen.net/private/jbxmAAqned
01:13:57 <madbr> was thinking something like a snes/genesis style chip
01:14:00 <Lumpio-> ...I should really get back to that thing and add a stable clock source, the jitter is awful
01:14:15 <madbr> that generates a scanline worth of data each scanline
01:15:14 <madbr> one nice idea I had was to precalculate which sprite is on top of each pixel
01:15:22 <Sgeo> No. Oh no. Why am I considering looking at Eiffel again
01:15:24 <madbr> and then just load the pixel that's on top
01:15:42 <madbr> so that you have more or less "infinite fillrate"
01:15:50 <madbr> ie can put lots of large objects
01:16:02 <madbr> haven't figured out how to do lots of small sprites though :/
01:16:19 <Lumpio-> Sprite systems usually have fixed sizes for sprites anyways
01:16:33 <Lumpio-> And to make large objects you use a lot of small sprites.
01:18:08 <madbr> well, yeah most classic sprite systems use transparent colors
01:18:23 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: is +1 correct in currentinstruction = brace_table.find(currentinstruction)->first +1; ?
01:18:34 <madbr> which means you have to read every potential pixel to see if it uses the transparent color
01:18:48 <madbr> which puts an absolute limit on fillrate
01:18:52 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: It should be. That puts me at the instruction past the ].
01:19:29 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: past the [ you mean? but you have a currentintstruction++ to be performed after that, you know...
01:19:33 <madbr> (ie if a pixel is hidden by another pixel, you can't have it for free)
01:19:50 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: Wait. I don't understand. Mind elaborating on what I'm doing wrong?
01:20:24 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: does that +1 in the code for ] take into account that currentinstruction is automatically incremented after each instruction run?
01:20:27 <madbr> essentially I think it would make more sense to store the transparency mask separately
01:20:59 <Lumpio-> madbr: But you still have to read each pixel of the mask
01:21:04 <BlueProtoman> Do software developers usually write code with only half an idea of what they're doing?
01:21:16 <madbr> lumpio: but the mask can be 1bpp
01:21:29 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: all the time, i hear (but then i'm not a software developer)
01:21:31 <rszeno> BlueProtoman: yes, at least me
01:21:37 <madbr> which means you're reading 32 pixels at the same time if your memory bus is 32 bits
01:21:57 <madbr> the mask can be stored as segments
01:22:03 <Lumpio-> Where does that mask come from in the first place
01:22:08 <Lumpio-> Does each sprite have one?
01:22:31 <madbr> "segment 1 starts at pixel a and finishes at pixel b, segment 2 starts at pixel c and finishes at pixel d"
01:23:29 <madbr> but yeah if you're using a segment list you still have to read the segment list
01:23:40 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: btw did i mention at the start that i thought the brace_table should contain entried for the ]'s as well? then you don't need an expensive find afaiu
01:23:42 <madbr> so there's still a limit on the number of sprites you can put onscreen
01:23:48 <Sgeo> Is EiffelStudio good?
01:24:00 <Sgeo> Are there good alternatives if I want to write proprietary programs in Eiffel?
01:24:05 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: It does. The key is the ['s, the element is the ]'s
01:24:17 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: no i mean, index _both_ ways
01:24:27 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: I could use a multimap for that, I guess.
01:24:29 <oerjan> then it's just a simple lookup either way
01:25:47 <Lumpio-> (I dunno if somebody's already mentioned this but is there a point in indexing loops beforehand?)
01:27:04 <oerjan> Lumpio-: in bf? well i guess you _could_ do it as you go, but it's a natural part of parsing...
01:27:23 <madbr> if you do software rendering VGA style, you probably have to precompute the transparency mask of each sprite too
01:27:28 <Lumpio-> Also speaking of sound synthesis on MCUs
01:27:32 <oerjan> it's definitely more efficient than searching for the matching [] every time :P
01:27:37 <Lumpio-> http://qp.virkkunen.net/private/edjvvEcfiH
01:27:42 <madbr> checking every pixel for transparency is way too slow
01:27:43 <Lumpio-> This is as far as I got before getting bored ¬u¬
01:28:05 <Lumpio-> This thing doesn't have a hardware multiplier either so it can only handle 3 or 4 channels or so
01:28:12 <oerjan> Lumpio-: wait was your question about something completely different? :P
01:28:13 <Lumpio-> Also due to my lacking math-fu there's an awful lot of noise.
01:28:56 <madbr> what's the waveform?
01:29:25 <madbr> you can do a nice soundtrack in 4 channels
01:29:26 <Lumpio-> Well you can at least find backward jumps by keeping a stack of open loops
01:29:33 <madbr> ...provided that you have lots of sample data :D
01:29:40 <Lumpio-> But I guess forward jumps would still result in a scan
01:29:52 <Lumpio-> It's just a simple sine wave
01:29:58 <Lumpio-> With an envelope I drew in GIMP
01:30:06 <Lumpio-> After looking at a sample of a music box.
01:30:37 <Lumpio-> It would work better with music with less low notes.
01:30:50 <Lumpio-> But I couldn't be bothered to look for more MIDI files
01:31:06 <madbr> what's the max data size?
01:31:18 <Lumpio-> I think that thing had 8kB of memory
01:31:30 <madbr> ah yeah 8kb is too tight for a MOD
01:32:02 <Lumpio-> Oh actual samples would be much easier to play, you could play way more tracks
01:32:15 <Lumpio-> But an envelope means at least one true multiply per sample
01:32:27 <madbr> well, with samples you probably want volume
01:32:32 <Lumpio-> (True as in it cannot be optimized completely into a series of shifts and adds because both arguments are unknown)
01:32:50 <Lumpio-> Nah you can do decent music with a constant volume for each sample
01:32:53 <madbr> though some old DOS software cheated and used a LUT for the volume :D
01:33:08 <madbr> was still a 16k LUT tho
01:33:33 <Lumpio-> Well I could have LUTs for a couple of levels of volume I guess
01:33:34 <madbr> lumpio: doesn't that multiply the amount of data you need very fast?
01:33:41 <Lumpio-> Assuming 8-bit output one LUT is only 256b
01:33:55 <madbr> some HW synths totally optimize out the multiply too
01:34:10 <madbr> yamaha FM synths have no multipliers
01:34:18 <Lumpio-> I couldn't figure out how to do it without a true multiply
01:34:26 <madbr> what they do is that they don't store sin(x)
01:34:33 <madbr> they store log(sin(x))
01:35:20 <Lumpio-> Actually now that I think of it I think I've heard of that before
01:35:43 <kmc> for better emulation of the yamaha fm chips, someone actually de-encapsulated one and read the bits out of the LUT with a microscope
01:38:11 <rszeno> kmc, imo will be a good start to jump to image processing and forget about audio for all the rest of his life, :)
01:38:36 <madbr> kmc: yeah I remember seeing that
01:38:57 <madbr> kmc: I think the opl3 has a real multiplier instead of the logsin + exp thing
01:40:08 <Sgeo> Does an IDE which has a license saying you may only use it for "free" projects count as "free"?
01:40:25 <Sgeo> (Not asking about EiffelStudio in particular, although that inspired the question)
01:42:54 <rszeno> i saw a chip ones was a simple one, i suspect a yamaha fm is more complicated
01:43:20 <madbr> yamaha fm isn't that complicated
01:44:02 <Lumpio-> meh now I have to try the log/exp thing out
01:44:35 <madbr> essentially it has one oscillator and one enveloppe
01:44:44 <madbr> and multiplexes the hell out of it :D
01:47:14 <madbr> so most of the chip is taken up by registers actually
01:48:57 <Lumpio-> How do you generate multiple frequencies with a single oscillator?
01:50:59 <kmc> the 'oscillator' is a lookup table for sin(x) (or log(sin(x))) right?
01:51:14 <kmc> so for each sample you can have several internal clock cycles
01:51:22 <kmc> and latch the output into a different register each time
01:51:45 <madbr> you store the current phase for each oscillator in a different register
01:51:51 <madbr> and current frequency too
01:52:12 <kmc> audio sample rate is way below any reasonable clock rate for logic, so this is a good tradeoff
01:52:35 <madbr> for each oscillator, you read the phase, read the frequency, add together, store that back in the phase register
01:52:43 <Lumpio-> So it's not actually just one oscillator
01:52:56 <Lumpio-> Just one look-up table with multiple oscillators built around it
01:53:02 <Lumpio-> ...that's what I did with my thing.
01:53:08 <madbr> they need different phase registers
01:53:17 <madbr> and different parameter registers of course
01:53:24 <madbr> but all the processing logic is shared
01:54:23 <zzo38> I would like the DSP or GPU to be able to do tiles, sprites, and video playback. 3D rendering is not important.
01:54:23 <madbr> like, read phase 1, read freq 1, add, write phase 1, process waveform 1, process volume 1, add to total register
01:54:37 <madbr> then, read phase 2, read freq 2, add, write phase 2, process waveform 2, process volume 2, add to total register
01:54:49 <madbr> etc, repeat for all the channels
01:55:04 <madbr> then take the total register and write that to the DAC
01:55:36 <madbr> zzo: I'm not sure hardware tiles are that useful :D
01:55:45 <madbr> they'Re easy to do tho
01:56:01 <madbr> video playback is different though
01:56:38 <madbr> depends on if you'Re fine with paletted video essentially
01:56:43 <zzo38> madbr: It doesn't need the feature to do tiles built-in to the hardware! What I mean is, that it is capable of being programmed to do these things.
02:01:33 <madbr> by the time you have a superscalar pipelined architecture and if you don't have too much pixels to fill, you can do that in software
02:02:40 <madbr> essentially you need enough fillrate to fill the screen at least once per frame
02:04:16 <madbr> because then, aside from the transparency stuff (best SNES feature!), you can use smart code to fake any numbers of layers etc you like and limit overdraw
02:04:16 <zzo38> For video playback it is OK if it requires the CPU and the GPU or DSP to work together
02:04:35 <madbr> is paletted (256 color?) video ok?
02:04:48 <madbr> or it has to be some proper algo like mpeg?
02:04:57 <zzo38> No. It has to be proper video such as Theora or Dirac.
02:05:32 <madbr> ok then you need a beefy cpu
02:06:16 <madbr> might need hardware FFT even
02:06:55 <madbr> you're jumping in the hundreads of mhz range
02:07:26 <madbr> which means all the 2d stuff will be totally fine and you've got so much cpu that you can just software mix the audio
02:07:54 <zzo38> OK. The criteria are that it is not extremely expensive and does not require proprietary software to program it
02:07:56 <madbr> unless you want high resolution on the 2d (640x480 or more?)
02:08:14 <zzo38> I told you, the resolution should be enough for NTSC.
02:08:22 <madbr> then 320x240 is enough
02:08:26 <zzo38> Just standard definition 4:3; no high definition is needed.
02:08:43 <madbr> essentially you need an ARM system on a chip
02:09:06 <zzo38> Which one? ARM7? ARM11?
02:10:07 <zzo38> Other than the processors, hard drive, optical drive, connectors, etc, I intend to design the rest of the hardware myself such as what is connected and in what way, as well as most of the software too.
02:10:35 <madbr> does decoding theora require floating point?
02:11:59 <madbr> if you need fast floating point that rules out arm11 I think
02:14:26 <zzo38> But I intend to design how the memory and that stuff is connected myself, in an attempt to prevent such things as DRM from being programmed in, as well as for other purposes too. Even if the ARM11 does not have fast floating point, whatever CPU is used if a GPU or DSP which is not tooo expensive and does not require proprietary software to use, can do some things the CPU doesn't, that might work too.
02:17:20 <madbr> GPUs tend to be proprietary
02:17:49 <zzo38> I know that; but is there a DSP which would be sufficient for this purpose?
02:17:59 <madbr> on the raspberry pi I think you can't even write to the GPU in hardware, you have to boot in linux and use precompiled drivers
02:18:28 <madbr> for 3d, software rendering is reasonable at low resolutions with beefy processors
02:18:36 <madbr> if you can live without bilinar filtering :D
02:19:30 <zzo38> I don't need 3D rendering; although surely someone will program it to make some (perhaps not particularly good quality) 3D rendering if they want to.
02:19:36 <madbr> sometimes SIMD stuff helps
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02:22:36 <madbr> but yeah 3d hardware implementation details are jealously guarded these days as far as I can tell, a bit silly
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07:20:42 <shachaf> kmc: People's explanations of things in #haskell irritate me these days even though I can't pinpoint exactly why.
07:20:50 <shachaf> I should probably just pull a kmc and leave.
07:21:40 <kmc> that's right
07:21:58 <kmc> just stand up, put on shades, make some kind of witty parting remark
07:22:05 <kmc> then casually flick a lit cigarette behind you as you leave
07:22:10 <kmc> causing the whole place to go up in flames
07:22:14 <shachaf> 00:22 <preflex> ddarius was last seen on #haskell 80 days, 5 hours, 14 minutes and 58 seconds ago, saying: BMeph: No.
07:22:19 <kmc> did ddarius have a witty parting remark
07:22:38 <shachaf> 00:22 <preflex> kmc was last seen 3 seconds ago, saying: <private message>
07:22:53 <kmc> cause i just asked it in pm ;P
07:23:00 <kmc> it was some boring quote from #git
07:23:21 <kmc> sorry, bro. sbarro.
07:23:43 <shachaf> You should've said the launch code to #haskell as you were leaving.
07:23:58 <kmc> the launch code to #haskell is (repeat 0)
07:23:59 <kmc> > repeat 0
07:24:00 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,...
07:24:04 <kmc> you have to type the whole thing, though
07:25:04 <shachaf> I guess lambdabot doesn't compile with -O
07:28:56 <fizzie> > last $ map (flip showCReal pi) [1..]
07:32:49 <kmc> gotta sleep
07:32:52 <kmc> 'night all
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07:59:20 <nooga> good morning europe!
08:03:01 <fizzie> A bit late for a morning.
08:03:39 <fizzie> I suppose English doesn't have a word for the time between morning and noon?
08:04:06 <fizzie> "(late) morning" is how wiktionary translates the Finnish word for it.
08:04:16 <fizzie> ("Aamupäivä", lit. "morningday".)
08:04:47 <nooga> we've got something like beforenoon - "przedpołudnie"
08:05:11 <fizzie> They've got 'afternoon', I think they should have some sort of 'prenoon' or whatever.
08:05:31 <nooga> and afternoon is "popołudnie"
08:05:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Morning is a lot shorter than afternoon and evening together, which is why the latter are split.
08:06:08 <fizzie> It's unsymmetrical is what it is.
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08:09:56 <zzo38> Now I made the local program for Internet Quiz Engine. Currently it can only be used with local files and does not support uploading or downloading, although I might add those things later on.
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08:12:26 <zzo38> The program is written in Haskell but calls the C program, so you need the compiled C program as well.
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09:09:31 <Taneb> Sweden beat Lithuania in the Eurovision :/
09:09:37 <Taneb> I likes Lithuania's entry
09:11:09 <fizzie> By quite a margin, too.
09:12:18 <Taneb> I know, I watched it
09:12:41 <fizzie> I "watched" it. By which I mean tried desperately not to fall asleep.
09:12:48 <Taneb> I missed a bit of Croatia's and Iceland's, and the second half was talked over by more people than the weird guy who talks over it on the TV
09:14:14 <fizzie> Norway managed to lose the most. Well, from those that made it to the finals, anyway.
09:14:31 <fizzie> Finland was #12 in the first semifinal, they say. So it wasn't *that* far.
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09:21:57 <Taneb> The votes were annoyingly unpolitical in that Malta didn't vote for us
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09:31:04 <fizzie> You did get some points from Ireland, though.
09:31:13 <fizzie> Humperdick, sorry, -dinck got 5 from Estonia, 4 from Ireland, 2 from Latvia and 1 from Belgium.
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09:33:28 -!- Fishspill has set topic: It is 2012 and there is time to be the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment. http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
09:33:44 <HackEgo> FISHSPILL: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
09:34:02 -!- Fishspill has set topic: It is 2005 and there is time to be the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment. http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
09:34:42 <fizzie> That is the loudest welcome.
09:35:21 <fizzie> Aw, the uppercased URL (still?) no work.
09:35:27 <shachaf> ^rainbow FISHSPILL: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
09:35:28 <fungot> FISHSPILL: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING ...
09:36:23 <Fishspill> Wow, what a welcome. With it being 2005 and all.
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09:37:42 <shachaf> ^rainbow THE YEAR OF LINUS TORVALDS ON THE DESKTOP
09:37:42 <fizzie> The output length limit of that is somewhat sad; it only goes up to, well, not very many letters.
09:37:43 <fungot> THE YEAR OF LINUS TORVALDS ON THE DESKTOP
09:37:49 <fizzie> ^bf ,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>]!0123456789
09:37:50 <fungot> 012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456 ...
09:38:15 <shachaf> whoa, dude, that's a fancy extension there.
09:38:21 <shachaf> Does it just specify stdin?
09:38:44 <fizzie> Well, it is where the , comes from.
09:39:36 <fizzie> If you "^def foo bf bar", then "^foo baz" will be equivalent to "^bf bar!baz"; I think it might even be implemented like that.
09:40:30 <fizzie> Or perhaps not, since what's stored in the state file is the parsed and bytecode-compiled version. Anyway.
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12:07:46 <fizzie> I'm listening to a talk titled "Semitheoretical Computer Science - what has changed in 30 years".
12:08:39 <fizzie> Sounds slightly like the Diet Coke edition of computer science.
12:15:22 <Taneb> That'd taste awful
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12:42:55 <fizzie> This is a somewhat rambling presntation.
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13:04:24 <Taneb> Aaah should I make a github account
13:04:28 <Taneb> I'm going with probably not
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13:36:43 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Uh, apparently we've become responsible.
13:36:51 <fizzie> That's what he said, anyway.
13:37:08 <fizzie> "We" being computer scientists.
13:37:56 <nortti> you werent responsible 30 years ago?
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13:45:14 <fizzie> Respectable, I was going to say.
13:45:39 <fizzie> Sorry, I'm technically presenting a poster here.
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13:46:47 <fizzie> Well, I'm just IRCing at the moment, am I not?
13:47:19 <fizzie> I think I'll make a quick walkaround.
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14:00:03 <ais523> hmm, is "print to PDF" in a PDF reader a plausible way to extract individual pages from a PDF file?
14:05:37 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 7 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:14:06 <fizzie> ais523: pdftk is one quite plausible way. But purely practically speaking that might also be.
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14:26:22 <elliott> 00:55:58: <Lumpio-> I've come to see Arduinos as a representation of the new hipster electronics generation
14:26:31 <elliott> does anyone remember when "hipster" actually meant something (even if it was a stupid meaning)
14:27:34 <elliott> 01:24:00: <Sgeo> Are there good alternatives if I want to write proprietary programs in Eiffel?
14:27:38 <elliott> i really don't want to know the background to this
14:28:01 <Sgeo> elliott, a bizarre sudden fascination with Eiffel
14:29:39 <elliott> ais523: can you pause irc for five hours please
14:30:21 <elliott> i need to watch monqy win a 0-rune mummystabbing spst of chei
14:30:28 <elliott> and the recording is 5 hours
14:32:16 <elliott> Sgeo: runes used to be real items
14:32:18 <elliott> so you could just drop them
14:32:21 <elliott> and win with less than 3 runes
14:32:29 <Gregor> This bizarre Let's Play Roguelikes fetish you've developed recently is weirding me out.
14:32:30 <elliott> but dtsund pulled in the patch to goldify them
14:32:35 <elliott> so that won't work as soon as the server is updated
14:32:40 <elliott> so it was a race to win a 0-runer before that happened
14:32:52 <elliott> actually i just started playing crawl because monqy told me to
14:33:01 <elliott> and then i ended up writing a huge patch to light, oops
14:33:11 <elliott> and now i can't go back or i'll realise how much of my life i'm wasting
14:34:32 <Phantom_Hoover> So I can't find a torrent for the latest episode of Game of Thrones, I am very worried.
14:35:03 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway I've always liked roguelikes, I've just been too lazy to actually play them.
14:35:13 <elliott> But I can't ignore monqy's demands.
14:35:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Didn't you give up on Nethack after you lost a save because of its anti-scumming measures.
14:35:52 <Gregor> My exact phrasing, "Let's Play Roguelikes" wasn't an accident, the weird part is recording yourselves and passing around recordings X-D
14:35:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, I was just annoyed with it for a day or two.
14:36:01 <elliott> Gregor: The servers automatically record them.
14:36:18 <elliott> Gregor: And there's scripts to play amusing deaths/etc. on a termcast TV thing.
14:36:40 <elliott> Gregor: Also you can spectate live. I don't actually download and watch entire games unless they're monqy doing ridiculous things, that would be weird :P
14:36:58 <elliott> But a mummystabbing SpSt of chei is definitely stupid enough to watch 5 hours of.
14:37:01 <Gregor> Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm hmmmmmmmmmmm
14:37:38 <elliott> Gregor: At least I don't watch and pass around recordings of My Little Pony!
14:38:06 <elliott> (I watch it live, obviously. (I don't actually.))
14:38:23 <Gregor> WELL THEN. *goes back to writing erotic #esoteric fanfics*
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14:40:15 <elliott> We've already seen enough.
14:40:25 <Gregor> I forget who else it involved.
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14:42:40 <Gregor> Nonowait, it was oklopol.
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14:42:56 <Taneb> elliott, do you even have a life to waste?
14:43:02 <Gregor> `log [o]klopol wasn't usually nude
14:43:07 <elliott> Taneb: No. But I'm doing my darndest anyway.
14:43:15 <elliott> `addquote <Gregor> `log [o]klopol wasn't usually nude
14:43:22 <HackEgo> 846) <Gregor> `log [o]klopol wasn't usually nude
14:43:44 <Gregor> And I misremembered the quote to boot.
14:44:15 <HackEgo> 2012-05-28.txt:14:43:02: <Gregor> `log [o]klopol wasn't usually nude
14:44:24 <Taneb> `log klopol.*naked
14:44:30 <HackEgo> 2011-05-29.txt:10:50:16: <oklopol> i don't like carrying stuff in my pockets either so really i'd just prefer being naked and carrying whatever i need in my hands
14:44:45 <Gregor> 2012-05-09.txt:23:34:50: <Gregor> He sat, nonchalantly, one finger running unthinkingly but tantalizingly up and down his strong, toned thigh. It wasn't unusual for oklopol to be here, waiting for elliott's arrival, but something was different today. oklopol was not typically nude.
14:45:05 <elliott> I'm pretty sure oklopol is, in fact, typically nude.
14:45:25 <Taneb> @ask oklopol Usually nude confirm/deny
14:46:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously it is too shit for the Lyttle Lytton though.
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15:24:26 <nortti> how should zzo38's deadfish implementation for dc work?
15:27:05 <elliott> Mmmm, the satisfaction of seeing a stupid answer self-deleted.
15:30:03 <ais523> always a great supervisor meeting when you get to define 2
15:30:20 <ais523> my supervisor wasn't convinced that I+I was always equal to 2*I
15:30:32 <ais523> so I pointed out that it was correct with the only reasonable definition of 2, even if the things you were dealing with weren't integers
15:32:30 <ais523> well, we're dealing with semirings, not rings
15:32:36 <ais523> but the same axioms still apply
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15:35:07 <elliott> I'm more worried that your supervisor thought that a+a might not be 2*a without even giving a definition of 2.
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15:38:46 <ais523> huh, my commands were interpreted out of order
15:39:12 <ais523> I sent the /ns ghost before the /nick, but the /nick errored out before the ghost worked
15:40:20 <elliott> ha! another problem i can blame on imperative style!
15:44:19 <nooga> functional style IRC?
15:44:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: not have that problem
15:44:49 <nooga> (right? (you kidding))
15:45:17 <elliott> i'm not kidding, but "functional" is incorrect
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15:56:41 <ais523> (fwiw: define 2 as 1+1, now I+I = (I*1)+(I*1) = I*(1+1) = I*2 = 2*I)
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16:11:24 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: no, it was made by europe
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17:26:45 <olsner> elliott: did you see my pun about the final countdown?
17:27:02 <elliott> but not what it was in reply to
17:27:19 <olsner> "<Phantom_Hoover> THE FINAL COUNTDOWN WAS MADE BY SWEDES?????????????"
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18:16:29 <ion> source materials.gcf/hl2/materials/matsys_regressiontest/background.vtf http://i.imgur.com/HwK3D.png
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18:20:47 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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18:36:04 <ais523> TIL: Scottish nationalists object to the term "Queen Elizabeth II" as it implies that there was a Queen Elizabeth I
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18:47:36 <zzo38> Do you hate "miss" that much?
18:51:00 <nortti_> zzo38: what does your deadfish implememtstion in dc require from dc imppementation? I couldn't get it to work with my dc
18:54:03 <zzo38> Although maybe it could be modified to work with another one
19:02:47 <nortti_> "To exit, use `q' . C-c does not exit; it is used to abort macros that are looping, etc. (Currently this is not true; C-c does exit.)" GNU dc manual page
19:05:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, looks like Minecraft's development is going ahead full-steam now Jeb and the Bukkit team are working on it.
19:11:24 <zzo38> Is there library for gopher and HTTP POST in Haskell? (People in #haskell channel answered the second part)
19:12:55 <ais523> zzo38: if there isn't, you could write one
19:13:10 <zzo38> ais523: How? I tried, but it doesn't work.
19:13:26 <ais523> zzo38: same way as you write a library in any other language
19:14:15 <elliott> ais523: he tried, but it doesn't work
19:14:40 <zzo38> I have written libraries in Haskell before, but I cannot get it to work with gopher
19:22:53 <ais523> "The survey tested respondents’ knowledge of cookies, asking them to confirm if a number of statements about cookies were correct or not. Ou tof the sixteen statements only one was answered correctly by th emajority of respondents."
19:23:59 <olsner> what was it? "The cookie monster eats cookies"?
19:24:14 <ais523> I'm hoping it'll say later, this is a 31-page document
19:24:23 <ais523> about how to comply with the new UK laws about cookies
19:24:47 <ais523> elliott: this reminds me, your login screen should probably contain a note that logging in will set a cookie to record the fact that you're logged in
19:25:04 <ais523> hmm, do anons get cookies set too?
19:25:09 <ais523> olsner: new UK laws about cookies
19:25:09 <elliott> i'll wait for mediawiki to implement that
19:25:13 <elliott> i doubt the law will stand
19:25:18 <olsner> is the wiki hosted in the UK though?
19:25:33 <elliott> so i'm probably liable anyway
19:26:03 <olsner> I think sweden has the same silly cookies law
19:26:18 <ais523> the whole of the EU does, it's an EU-wide law that's being implemented by the individual member companies
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19:26:53 <ais523> I don't personally find it silly, partly because I have all cookies on manual approval atm (apart from a few websites I use a lot and are set to always-approve, and some that use so many I had to set them to always-disaprove because I was bored of clicking through notifications)
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19:27:07 <ais523> something that reduces the number of approvals I need would be nice
19:27:17 <ais523> [20:25] <kerio> i just installed kde
19:27:19 <ais523> [20:25] <kerio> what the FUCK
19:27:21 <olsner> the decision to accept cookies or not has always been on the client side anyway
19:27:35 <ais523> yes, but browsers accept them by default
19:27:59 <ais523> the EU have been campaigning against anticompetitive or privacy-breaking defaults
19:28:01 <zzo38> But that isn't the government's job to fix
19:28:42 <zzo38> It may be good for them to campaign against anticompetitive or privacy-breaking defaults, but still, that doesn't mean they have to fix it by making a law against it
19:28:43 <elliott> zzo38: I think you'll find it is the job to fix anticompetitive and privacy-breaking behaviour by corporations.
19:28:57 <ais523> It has been suggested that the fact that a visitor has arrived at a webpag eshould be sufficient evidence that they consent to cookies being set o rinformation being accessed on their device. The key here is that the visito rshould understand that this is the case. It is important to note that it would b eextremely difficult to demonstrate compliance simply by showing that a use rvisited a particular site or was served a particular advertisement
19:28:58 <ais523> unless it coul dalso be demonstrated that they were aware this would result in cookies bein gset.
19:28:59 <elliott> In fact, regulating corporations is pretty much the definition of the convernment's job in a capitalist society.
19:29:11 <zzo38> Or, at least, the government should tell the people who install those browsers by default to fix it
19:29:21 <zzo38> Since they are the ones needed fixing
19:29:23 <elliott> The government tells people to do things by passing laws.
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19:30:01 <zzo38> It isn't the job of the server to change the settings on the client
19:30:32 <ais523> btw, I approve of the anti-cookie law partly because the same reasoning's being used on EULAs
19:30:40 <ais523> (that people just click through EULAs without reading them, thus they have no legal force)
19:31:57 <zzo38> But, yes, the government should tell the people who sell computers to change those settings
19:32:23 <zzo38> And if they refuse they have to put a warning label on the box
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19:33:28 <ais523> elliott: you're /probably/ OK if it's just session cookies, not analytics
19:33:38 <mroman> It's the browser manufacturers job.
19:33:58 <elliott> ais523: I break the law pretty frequently anyway
19:34:12 <elliott> mroman: well, it's not like browser managers can make all cookies prompt-by-default reasonably
19:34:19 <ais523> elliott: ouch, seriously?
19:34:26 <ais523> it's pretty rare for me to intentionally break it
19:34:42 <olsner> mroman: I think no browser vendor wants to be the first with the "confusing popup with lots of confusing settings" box that will have to pop up for every page load
19:34:45 <elliott> mroman: it'd just make everyone use outlaw browsers :P
19:34:47 <mroman> Which makes it also the governments job, sadly.
19:34:58 <elliott> mroman: more importantly, very few browsers are UK-based
19:35:05 <mroman> As it is responsible for the safety of its citizens.
19:35:17 <elliott> anyway I don't object to the privay-based intent
19:35:21 <elliott> but I think the execution is a little problematic
19:35:54 <zzo38> It should not be the browser manufacturer's job; it is the computer manufacturer's job to change the settings before selling the computer, or including a warning label on the computer.
19:36:11 <elliott> zzo38: yes, that would accomplish precisely nothing
19:36:14 <mroman> Warning labels are useless.
19:36:24 <elliott> because everyone would just ignore the label, or download a browser as soon as they get it
19:36:58 <mroman> Browsers are in a very good position to make demands actually.
19:37:04 <mroman> Websites have to work with browsers.
19:37:26 <mroman> They do also the other way, but that must not be.
19:37:59 <ais523> well, there's already the browserchoice thing, which requires the default browser on Windows to be a menu presenting the five most popular Windows browsers in random order and asking the user to choose one
19:38:17 <olsner> well, the websites have to work with IE6 and the other browsers have to work with those websites :)
19:38:19 <mroman> Like firefox or opera?
19:38:25 <mroman> They both suck at security.
19:38:45 <olsner> opera is best for security!!1
19:38:48 <nortti_> mroman: what is secure briwser then?
19:39:00 <elliott> mroman: well, browsers are not really in a good position to make demands
19:39:01 <mroman> The one that allows nothing per default.
19:39:07 <elliott> if you make a demand that inconveniences users
19:39:11 <elliott> then the users will use another browser
19:39:12 <mroman> And requires the user to load whitelists.
19:39:39 <mroman> which are configfiles.
19:39:57 <mroman> which say when browsing on what page, what the browser is allowed to do.
19:40:45 <zzo38> Well, yes that way would work.
19:43:34 <mroman> http://codepad.org/sfsarUbh
19:43:38 <mroman> ^- I want something like that.
19:44:04 <mroman> COMPLETE tab isolation.
19:44:20 <mroman> Just because I'm logged in on somesite doesn't mean that I should be logged in in any other tab.
19:44:41 <mroman> Because if I want that, I would somehow tell my browser that (through such a configuration file)
19:44:50 <olsner> you should use opera mini then, keep all your tabs on iceland :>
19:45:10 <zzo38> I like things like that too; be able to configure settings for each domain or even separate for subdomains whether inherit or not, and path and filenames too.
19:45:38 <nortti_> mroman: complete tab isolation=each tab runs on its own machine?
19:45:52 <mroman> nortti_: Each tab has its own "browser context"
19:46:05 <mroman> like its a different browser
19:46:12 <zzo38> Perhaps the UK government should sell computers that do not have any web browser program
19:46:17 <mroman> no cookie sharing between tabs
19:46:56 <zzo38> mroman: I do agree it would be a good idea that you can have multiple sessions without cookie sharing.
19:47:15 <mroman> I would want browsers to only work with such configuration files
19:47:25 <mroman> which deny almost everything by default.
19:47:53 <mroman> And siteowners may provide such a file
19:48:05 <mroman> (like robots.txt or some mechanism like that)
19:48:27 <mroman> The user then can view it, accept and adjust it.
19:48:49 <olsner> they'll just say "for the best experience, please enable all features", and obviously most sites will be made so that nothing works unless you do exactly that
19:49:31 <zzo38> What they should do is discourage HTTP and HTML
19:50:02 <olsner> well, it will make your system suck (as in, give extra useless prompts) for everyone except the paranoid, and 99.99% of users are not paranoid
19:50:09 <mroman> and he had the chance to tell the browser EXACTLY what to do.
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19:51:07 <mroman> even if you're not paranoid
19:51:17 <mroman> there are certain areas or streets you avoid.
19:51:29 <mroman> Why not adopt that behaviour to the internet.
19:51:49 <ais523> <olsner> they'll just say "for the best experience, please enable all features", and obviously most sites will be made so that nothing works unless you do exactly that <-- I have now found /two/ sites that cover the entire screen with a <noscript> tag, and work fine with JS off if you remove it with Firebug
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19:52:08 <coppro> he's beyond convincing :(
19:52:10 <nortti_> Well some people think I am paranoid but I at least allow sites to load, render and display images without them needing to be on a whitelist
19:52:35 <ais523> I have a blacklist for images (that I update), but leave them showing by default
19:52:39 <mroman> olsner: The main point is to force websites to work with default security settings.
19:52:39 <ais523> JS is off by default; cookies prompt me each time
19:53:06 <mroman> They can not use "facebook track buttons" with default settings. Ok.
19:53:28 <ais523> what about disallowing third-party cookies altogether
19:53:39 <mroman> So the user gets one prompt in his life for this website
19:53:39 <ais523> much saner and comes to much the same thing
19:53:43 <zzo38> O, well, yes if you can remove a <noscript> tag with Firebug then that work, good you can do such things
19:53:56 <nortti_> I don't have JS and cookies are disallow everything but pages on whitelist (then it prompts me)
19:54:23 <mroman> Noscript does not allow me to only block certain parts of a script.
19:54:33 <mroman> And some sites are that clever, that they only work
19:54:41 <mroman> if you enable everything, even third party scripts.
19:55:02 <mroman> because they check each other for existence.
19:55:12 <ais523> mroman: at that point I typically just refuse to visit them
19:55:50 <mroman> With sophisticated configuration files I could just block certain parts
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19:56:27 <mroman> (js (url 'foobar.com/js/some.js' (line 3 deny)))
19:57:01 <zzo38> Not only that, but be able to add functions overrides and so on
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20:11:56 <elliott> 21:11 Fishspill set the topic at: 28 May 2012 10:34
20:12:14 <elliott> They changed the topic twice.
20:12:19 <elliott> 09:33:28: -!- Fishspill changed the topic of #esoteric to: It is 2012 and there is time to be the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment. http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
20:12:20 <elliott> 09:34:02: -!- Fishspill changed the topic of #esoteric to: It is 2005 and there is time to be the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment. http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
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20:15:55 <elliott> 09:11:00: <fizzie> Sweden beat everyone.
20:16:07 <elliott> Was that the Beautiful Song thing?
20:19:05 <zzo38> When playing "StarTrek Guess", if it ends with "-_" then I guess "Q"
20:19:32 <zzo38> And usually there is at least one "Q" in it
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20:25:07 <Sgeo> Racket or Chicken
20:25:20 <Sgeo> I can't learn Scheme because I'll always be paralyzed trying to choose
20:25:27 <Sgeo> Although Racket isn't quite Scheme
20:25:36 <ais523> Sgeo: right, I saw that, realised "Scheme", but thought it'd be much funnier to misinterpret you
20:25:40 <ais523> but I can't think of a funny misinterpretation :(
20:27:12 <Sgeo> Racket or Scheme?
20:27:25 <ais523> both are nefarious plots
20:27:31 <ais523> presumably that's where the name comes from
20:27:41 <ais523> "scheme" is a pretty weird name for a lang, really…
20:29:05 <elliott> you tell the computer a scheme to carry out
20:29:20 <elliott> Scheme started as an attempt to understand Carl Hewitt's Actor model, for which purpose Steele and Sussman wrote a "tiny Lisp interpreter" using Maclisp and then "added mechanisms for creating actors and sending messages."[7] Scheme was originally called "Schemer", in the tradition of other Lisp-derived languages like Planner or Conniver. The current name resulted from the authors' use of the ITS operating system, which limited filena
20:29:20 <elliott> mes to two components of at most six characters each. Currently, "Schemer" is commonly used to refer to a Scheme programmer.
20:31:14 <Lumpio-> How does Scheme implement actors and message passing
20:31:22 <elliott> then they realised the code was identical to procedures
20:31:28 <elliott> and so they unified the two by removing actors
20:31:32 <shachaf> No, Steele and Sussman implemented it.
20:31:35 <elliott> presumably they aren't fans of the actor model, any more
20:31:45 <kmc> that's where "lambda the ultimate foo" comes from
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20:50:40 <fizzie> elliott: It was called something like "Euphoria".
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21:53:03 <elliott> ais523: haha, the BBC are prompting me about cookies now too
21:53:19 <ais523> it's a law, it's not a joke
21:53:35 <elliott> I thought it was appropriate timing
21:53:42 <elliott> although I suspect the law /will/ end up being a fad
22:01:29 <coppro> attn: anyone interested in nomic
22:01:35 <coppro> BlogNomic is entering its 100th dynasty
22:01:38 <coppro> and it's going to be pretty awesome
22:02:37 <ais523> coppro: never say a BN dynasty is going to be awesome in advance
22:03:41 <elliott> coppro: is it going to be really boring
22:04:01 <elliott> will the playerbase quickly crack down on any interesting rules-based play by accusing it of being a cheating scam
22:04:19 <ais523> elliott: they've done that a lot less recently
22:04:21 <elliott> will it end up being a continual grindfest that they keep extending with barely-thought-out mechanisms that just encourage more grinding until someone grinds enough to win after everyone else gets bored
22:04:40 <elliott> will they vote against any interesting proposal on the grounds of complexity
22:26:56 <Sgeo> I changed my mind about hating Racket's keyword arguments
22:27:11 <Sgeo> Although I still wonder if Chicken does something that's best of all worlds
22:27:51 <Sgeo> monqy, used to hate them, because it's inelegent needing to use keyword-apply to have a fully general way of .. making a function that sort of wraps around another function, rather than just apply
22:28:04 <Sgeo> Now, I at least understand why it was designed the way it was designed
22:28:39 <Sgeo> (CL's way causes confusion when one writes a function that has both optional and keyword arguments)
22:28:59 <elliott> what's inelegant is apply (imho)
22:32:38 <elliott> `addquote <monqy> you've constructed a situation in which i have no choice but to die in 10 days <monqy> well done <monqy> that's murder
22:32:41 <HackEgo> 847) <monqy> you've constructed a situation in which i have no choice but to die in 10 days <monqy> well done <monqy> that's murder
22:33:12 <HackEgo> 334) <crystal-cola> here's a good multiplication algorithm <crystal-cola> 1010101 x 110 <crystal-cola> well <crystal-cola> I don't know how to do it but it starts like that
22:33:27 <HackEgo> 566) <itidus20> indirect addressing is a facile and inebrious kind of instruction which should be whomped away by languages
22:33:27 <HackEgo> 129) <AnMaster> oerjan, can you ever get any number higher than 3 at the start of "ordinary" [look-and-say sequences]? <ais523> it's not clear from the RFCs
22:33:29 <HackEgo> 822) <elliott_> (help why are german) <monqy> i play the german version of crawl <elliott_> i
22:33:29 <HackEgo> 226) <elliott> i thought you said it was meant to be more useful in practice :D <ais523> elliott: well, it /is/, for sufficient values of useful in practice <ais523> umm, sufficiently small
22:33:50 <elliott> monqy: what do you think!!!
22:34:28 <ais523> and 822 isn't funny either
22:35:13 <ais523> you can't use [context brackets] to put in the context for one statement, then combine it with a completely different context for the next line
22:35:50 <elliott> it's ok to clarify individual lines if they use explicitly ambiguous terminology
22:35:54 <elliott> personally i never remove words ever
22:35:58 <elliott> and would have inserted an editor's remark
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23:46:15 <HackEgo> 100) <AnMaster> fungot!*@* added to ignore list. <fungot> AnMaster: i'd find that a bit annoying to wait for an ack.
23:46:24 <HackEgo> 407) <olsner> as always in sweden everything goes to a fixed pattern: thursday is queueing at systembolaget to get beer and schnaps, friday is pickled herring, schnaps and dancing the frog dance around the phallos, saturday is dedicated to being hung over
23:46:34 <HackEgo> 449) <Gregor> I have a WRT120N <fizzie> Gregor: The WRT160NL has 40 units more of... stuff. Plus an L.
23:46:37 <HackEgo> 492) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds?
23:46:37 <HackEgo> 317) <Phantom_Hoover> DON'T MOCK ME WITH YOUR ABILITY TO DIVIDE BY TEN
23:47:14 <monqy> i prefer 100 over 317
23:48:07 <Gregor> ADD is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds?
23:48:33 <HackEgo> 473) <itidus20> Game theory is not a perfect tool for analyzing video games. <itidus20> Nash failed to create a "video game theory"
23:48:34 <HackEgo> 181) <cpressey> fizzie: I can never tell with OpenBSD! <cpressey> everything looks like an error anyway
23:48:40 <HackEgo> 493) <Phantom_Hoover> Oh look, Dax has brought TWO glowy science sticks. <Phantom_Hoover> SHIT JUST GOT REAL
23:48:46 <HackEgo> 92) <Warrigal> Making a small shrine to Lawlabee in my basement is something I should get around to at some point.
23:48:49 <HackEgo> 322) <oklopol> i understand that people had to use twitter and facebook before irc was invented, but now they just feel like ancient history
23:51:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what do you think
23:52:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I mean 493 is the height of witty commentary, it has to stay obviously.
23:53:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Other than that... that oko has always been shifty, I say 322.
23:53:31 <elliott> monqy: what do `you htink'
23:54:27 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover is clearly a h8r
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00:23:08 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_davidwerecat_awful_22: 42.1
00:24:44 <elliott> it's so awful it failed at being awful
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01:31:58 <drocta> is this about esoteric programming languages?
01:32:46 <HackEgo> drocta: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:34:16 <drocta> so I wrote what I think is called a design doc for one, I'm not sure its clear enough though. its based on tuples. does anyone want to see it?
01:36:07 <drocta> its about one page down long.
01:38:56 <oerjan> you can put it on the wiki if you want
01:39:24 <oerjan> the channel is a bit silent at the moment
01:39:41 <oerjan> oh elliott is still here. scratch that then.
01:40:57 <oerjan> probably something about creyfish
01:43:15 <oerjan> it is slightly possible that elliott is getting tired, it's _way_ past his bedtime.
01:43:35 <elliott> i did become a giraffe though
01:43:45 <elliott> drocta: i run the wiki btw
01:43:59 <elliott> (well, as of february or so)
01:45:02 <drocta> so does a language based on tuples dieing sound at all interesting? and also all the things the tuples consist of are tuples,
01:46:08 <drocta> so far ive been calling it ~ATH (tilde ath till death)
01:46:38 <madbr> what sort of flow control does it use?
01:46:57 <drocta> there are ~ATH loops that loop until the tuple dies
01:47:27 <drocta> (pretty much while loops)
01:48:29 <madbr> how does it do i/o?
01:48:43 <drocta> it actually doesnt have strings yet
01:48:53 <drocta> or even numbers, you have to implemetn numbers
01:49:06 <madbr> you should make it have i/o based on tuples
01:49:14 <drocta> thats what I was thinking
01:49:37 <drocta> like, the first charecter would be the left half
01:49:47 <drocta> the second would be the left half of the right half
01:50:00 <drocta> and the third wold be the left of the right of the right and so on
01:50:23 <oerjan> ...you seem to be reinventing lisp lists there.
01:51:10 <kmc> did this ever get posted here? http://colinm.org/language_checklist.html
01:52:21 <drocta> http://pastebin.com/n5eUm5UL is the design doc so far
01:53:08 <madbr> ahaha I have a language that qualifies for [ ] Computers have infinite memory
01:53:24 <madbr> haven't found how to garbage collect it yet but it's really hard
01:54:22 <drocta> ohgosh i didnt see that the wordwrap would be a problem like that
01:56:10 <madbr> [ ] You have reinvented PHP better, but that's still no justification
01:56:52 <drocta> yeah, so, does php really have that bad of a reputation or?
01:58:44 * oerjan likes [ ] Shift-reduce conflicts in parsing seem to be resolved using rand()
02:00:14 <madbr> make a language where that's the only means of flow control
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02:00:43 <drocta> [ ] The name of your language makes it impossible to find on Google
02:01:28 <elliott> i think there have been previous ~ATH attempts before
02:01:43 <elliott> disappointing lack of colour
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02:02:24 <drocta> ive seen what people have written in it, but didnt know anyone wrote an interpreter
02:02:36 <drocta> (I wrote bubblesort in it)
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02:03:47 <drocta> speaking of the interpreter, is storing the variables and objects in tries to memory intensive?
02:04:13 <david_werecat> !bfjoust awful_24 ->+>->(-)*8>-->(+)*8>++>(-)*8>(+)*8(+)*8<(-)*8<++<(+)*8<--<(-)*8<-<+(+)*60>(-)*60>>>>>>>([+[+[+[+[-----[-[-[-[(-)*22[+][-]]]]]]]]]]>)*21
02:04:16 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_awful_24: 45.7
02:07:28 <elliott> drocta: don't worry about it
02:08:25 <drocta> ok, thanks. I don't really have a good feel for how much memory it too much yet.
02:10:42 <drocta> if a language only has one type, is it strongly typed, dynamically typed, or what?
02:10:44 <elliott> probably nothing is too much
02:10:53 <elliott> you can view it as untyped
02:10:58 <elliott> or a statically-typed language with one type
02:11:03 <elliott> or a dynamically-typed language with one type
02:13:44 <elliott> A non-spam email to lang@esoteric.sange.fi.
02:13:53 <elliott> atehwa: You ran those lists, right? Who did you bribe?
02:22:00 <drocta> hmm... so far it seems ~ATH exhibits at least 29 of those problems.
02:25:07 <oerjan> it's rather hard to avoid those marked with have/lacks, i'd say
02:28:42 <Sgeo> shift-reduce conflicts?
02:29:10 <drocta> not sure exactly what those are
02:31:02 <oerjan> Sgeo: a type of ambiguity in LR(1) parsers. for example if you write a grammar rule expression ::= expression "+" expression, you get a shift-reduce conflict when parsing something like 1+2+3
02:32:24 <oerjan> at the second +, should you _shift_ the + onto the parsing stack, which means parsing it as 1+(2+3), or should you _reduce_ the already parsed 1+2 part first, giving (1+2)+3 instead.
02:33:28 <oerjan> which means how to resolve shift-reduce conflicts determines e.g. the precedence of operators
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02:36:08 <oerjan> (and vice versa, in yacc/bison the result of annotating tokens with precedence is to automatically choose shift or reduce in the resulting state machine)
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02:38:43 <oerjan> the gist of that quote is "your language's syntax is so horrible no one can guess better than rand() how it parses"
02:42:29 * madbr rocks out to rick astley
03:17:14 <Sgeo> http://www-static.us.worlds.net/news/news_general.html
03:17:20 <Sgeo> News for today
03:18:05 <Sgeo> If you're from the past, anyway
03:18:41 <oerjan> hey i'm from the past!
03:20:00 <elliott> And explain the whole Brainfuck thing. Anybody I know would say that's a swear word, and everybody
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04:21:42 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 6 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
04:21:53 <monqy> did anyth--oh--ing happen while i was away
04:24:01 <monqy> great lambdabot messags
04:39:03 <shachaf> monqy: Can I have some great λ⊥ messages?
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04:42:40 <shachaf> @ask lambdabot Hey, where's my message notification?
04:42:58 <shachaf> @tell lambdabot I WAS ASKING YOU QUESTION.
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05:02:41 <atehwa> elliott: I happened to be there when Chris (from Catseye) lost his faith in the community, so to say.
05:02:59 <elliott> that must have happened multiple times
05:03:21 <atehwa> well, this particular time Chris' reaction was something you could call trolling
05:03:41 <elliott> that's what i'd call a fair proportion of things chris does :P
05:03:46 <atehwa> as he was quite influential in the community, this created a lot of confusion
05:04:04 <elliott> (Anyway, I was asking who you bribed to get new non-spam posts today.)
05:04:12 <atehwa> so I just offered to take the responsibility, and got Chris' support.
05:04:26 <elliott> Did cpressey used to run the list?
05:04:33 <atehwa> I could bribe myself, right?
05:04:55 <atehwa> yes, it was originally esoteric@catseye.mb.ca or something like that
05:05:06 <atehwa> it's the first esolang community that I know of
05:05:11 <atehwa> quite productive, too.
05:05:23 <elliott> I take it all the archives are lost to history
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05:18:58 <atehwa> @esoteric archives do exist
05:19:50 <atehwa> http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/
05:20:36 <atehwa> but... I don't know about catseye
05:21:47 <atehwa> 'fcourse, list participants probably have their own archives of the discussions.
05:23:29 <elliott> right, the wiki links to the sange.fi archives
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05:52:20 <itidus21> I guess the only trouble with the cookie law is that any law which the public actually likes can't be a good thing.
05:53:56 <itidus21> <ais523> it's a law, it's not a joke <ais523> or a fad
05:54:22 <itidus21> <elliott> I thought it was appropriate timing <elliott> although I suspect the law /will/ end up being a fad
05:57:07 <quintopia> so they have to warn users about cookies in britain?
05:57:52 <elliott> see http://www.ja.net/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/ for examples
05:58:02 <elliott> maybe you need to go on a news page on the latter to see it
05:58:40 <elliott> wow click change settings that's a lot of cookie settings
05:59:12 <quintopia> well, i suppose i'm not opposed to the idea
05:59:53 <quintopia> i like that android apps report which actions they will be permitted to take
06:07:09 <shachaf> I like how those permissions are so coarse-grained as to be basically useless.
06:07:29 <shachaf> Why is the only level of "do anything with the SD card" "do everything with the SD card"?
06:10:36 <itidus21> I like how windows shifts responsibility onto a non-existant system administrator when something goes wrong.
06:12:02 <itidus21> it never actually checks your priviliges before saying that
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06:14:07 <quintopia> shachaf: the permission is "write to external storage" i think reading is automatically permitted
06:14:21 <quintopia> but the file system still has standard permission sets
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07:54:00 <fizzie> Did we have anyone from University of Helsinki?
07:54:15 <fizzie> Because I'm at your Exactum now.
07:55:03 <fizzie> Though I guess my actual point is already a bit moot.
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08:04:25 <fizzie> O(Hell), the worst time complexity.
08:06:13 <fizzie> There's a guy here talking about a new kind of statistics.
08:06:34 <fizzie> It's a "summary"-ish thing of his new book, http://www.amazon.com/Optimal-Estimation-Parameters-Jorma-Rissanen/dp/1107004748
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08:36:55 <Patashu> Fizzle: So, what is it about
08:36:59 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, does it involve getting loads of grunts to look through tables of data for behaviour that loosely resembles the real world and then telling everyone what a genius you are?
08:49:07 <fizzie> Patashu: The Amazon page has a description.
08:49:23 <fizzie> But this man is the most arrogant person alive, I think.
08:50:03 <Patashu> it does have a description
08:50:08 <Patashu> but I don't feel enlightened after reading it
08:50:09 <elliott> Optimal Estimation of Parameters is a ridiculously profound book title.
08:50:13 <Patashu> what does it do, besides estimate things well
08:50:19 <elliott> It's hard to get more all-encompassing than that.
08:50:24 <elliott> Optimal Method of Doing THings
08:50:43 <fizzie> elliott: He says everyone else is pretty much totally wrong about everything.
08:50:56 <fizzie> elliott: Both frequentists and Bayesians.
08:51:17 <elliott> That praise does seem rather high.
08:52:14 <Patashu> fizzie: are there any examples of his work I can read without paying for them?
08:52:58 <elliott> fizzie: So what's his version?
08:55:57 <fizzie> elliott: It is not terribly easy to understand, honestly. But he says it's a generalization of ML where the "model selection" is part of it, but also a generalization of the MDL principle.
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08:58:00 <Ngevd> I'm not sure what just happened
08:58:26 <fizzie> Patashu: I'm sure his "famous" papers are somewhere; he's sort of counted as the inventor of arithmetic coding, and the MDL principle, both well-known things.
08:58:36 <fizzie> Maximum-likelihood estimation.
08:58:46 <elliott> Arithmetic coding? So he's not a quack, then.
08:59:38 <fizzie> Patashu: http://www.mdl-research.org/jorma.rissanen/ -- there's a list of selected papers there.
09:00:08 <elliott> http://www.mdl-research.org/jorma.rissanen/rissanen.jpg
09:00:16 <elliott> this is a guy who knows a lot about optimal estimation of parameters
09:00:54 <fizzie> He is very certain about this thing.
09:01:36 <Ngevd> He has estimated the parameters optimally
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09:01:43 <fizzie> "You have been too much influenced by this traditional nonsense" -- a verbatim quote about his answer to some comments afterward.
09:03:41 <fizzie> Anyway, I don't suppose he's "wrong" if you strictly accept his definitions and just look at the mathematical consequences.
09:03:52 <fizzie> But of course I haven't read the book.
09:04:07 <fizzie> Anyway, free-lunch time. ->
09:04:22 <Patashu> To summarize, the traditional dogmatic approach to statistical model building, in which prob-
09:04:23 <Patashu> abilities are viewed as inherent properties of `random' data and restricted to them, is resting on
09:04:23 <Patashu> shaky logical foundations.
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09:20:16 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> But this man is the most arrogant person alive, I think.
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09:39:16 <fizzie> http://assets.cambridge.org/97811070/04740/frontmatter/9781107004740_frontmatter.pdf page 7 (last page) is perhaps a better description, in the sense that it mentions how everyone is wrong.
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09:49:06 <fizzie> It's funny because now we're going to have presentations for four papers, and I'd wager a guess there's going to be Bayesian principles involved. (He was especially critical of their "worthless nonsense".)
09:49:24 <elliott> So he likes the frequentists more?
09:50:47 <fizzie> I don't think so. He just mentioned them less. But he did say their hypothesis testing is pure nonsense, while he does it right using his theory of perfectly perfect perfectstimators.
09:51:24 <fizzie> They are optimal "in every relevant sense" (direct quote from slides).
09:52:01 <Patashu> there are irrelevant senses to be optimal in?
09:52:18 <elliott> Patashu: What combo should I play?
09:52:40 <fizzie> Sure, like "optimal in a practical application" or whatever.
09:53:15 <Patashu> elliott: crawl, crawl light or 4.1
09:53:34 <elliott> (i think the light people get offended if you call it not-crawl)
09:53:39 <elliott> Patashu: i want to get >xl 15
09:53:46 <elliott> i have low tolerance for the standard hunger mechanics
09:53:52 <elliott> (i.e. not being able to eat corpses most of the time and the like)
09:54:05 <Patashu> you could try troll fighter-something
09:54:18 <elliott> also not really looking to be a squishy fully-spells mage
09:54:26 <elliott> (melee w/ buff spells are fine)
09:54:36 <elliott> Patashu: trolls are a bit op aren't they
09:54:40 <elliott> (i don't play anything sufficiently popular)
09:54:42 <Patashu> they have shit defenses and apts
09:54:49 <Patashu> they can throw rocks though
09:55:06 <Patashu> well you'll be hitting things with your claws mostly
09:55:12 <Patashu> since you can't get rocks until cyclopses start appearing
09:55:35 <elliott> (my current combo of the moment is ghak, previously ghmo*makhleb)
09:55:41 <elliott> (before that dsak i think)
09:56:07 <Patashu> well, shrug. gh is good, ak is good
09:56:10 <elliott> which is strange because it's pretty good
09:56:19 <elliott> Patashu: heavy armour or light armour melee fighter w/ buffs
09:56:36 <Patashu> that depends on what books you find, doesn't it
09:56:48 <elliott> but i hate deciding late :(
09:56:52 <elliott> i like to wear my heavy armour early
09:57:04 <elliott> and then switch if i find nice books? ok
09:57:13 <Patashu> since p(heavy armour) > p(good book)
09:57:40 <elliott> is that valid in the optimal estimation of parameters method
09:57:49 <Patashu> (for example, as an ogre/troll p(heavy armour) < p(good book) )
09:58:02 <elliott> oh right trolls have stupid armour
09:58:59 <Patashu> I think it's meant to be a butcher stall
09:59:18 <elliott> very profitable for ghoule
10:00:03 <Patashu> I think 'pray' and 'butcher' should move towards the thing you most recently killed
10:00:09 <Patashu> popping it off like a stack as you keep pressing it
10:00:16 <elliott> it just sacs every corpse in los
10:00:22 <Patashu> ok but does light have area butchering
10:00:29 <elliott> you don't need to butcher :p
10:00:34 <Patashu> what about for sublimation of blood
10:00:45 <elliott> Patashu: oh assuming heavy armour is a pain
10:00:48 <elliott> 'cuz i need to raise stats
10:00:55 <Patashu> you only need 18 str for plate
10:03:10 <Patashu> you are not vbery good at this 'running away from things' game mechanic
10:03:46 <Patashu> rip elliott killed by: unoptimal play
10:03:47 <Phantom_Hoover> But DF is the only thing that would simulate the sublimation point of blood
10:03:55 <elliott> Patashu: it's because i tabbed it before i realised it was an iguana
10:04:31 <Patashu> you know what would be funny
10:04:38 <Patashu> if randomly you'd start in the abyss instead of in the dungeon, like an ak
10:04:44 <Patashu> except instead of dying at 0 hp you'd wake up in the dungeon
10:04:49 <Patashu> and it'd say 'Whew, what an awful dream!'
10:05:24 <elliott> blink as first scroll nice
10:09:54 <elliott> with less stupid chokepoint strategy
10:10:37 <elliott> the problem is that crawl is boring
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10:15:09 <Patashu> it seems weird that everything is killing you
10:15:12 <Patashu> I never have any problems playing crawl
10:15:23 <elliott> i don't die this easily with ghak usually
10:17:31 <Sgeo> Is cygwin good for using simple utilities like grep, or are there better alternatives
10:17:43 <Patashu> cygwin works, it also comes in dll format
10:17:59 <Sgeo> Although I already have cygwin installed and I'm lazy, so...
10:18:10 <Patashu> if you install cygwin and put it on your path (or just put the bash utilities you want in a folder with the cygwin dll, and put that on your path) you can use them from your windows shell
10:18:18 <Patashu> I can type grep blah blah blah and it just works and I'm on windows 7
10:20:35 <Patashu> <Gretell> Purgy (T) | Spd: 10 | Int: normal (doors) | HD: 5 | HP: 35 | AC/EV: 1/12 | Dam: 9, 4, 4 | Fl: regen | Res: magic(13) | Chunks: contam | XP: 134.
10:20:45 <Patashu> you don't have to fight him
10:21:16 <Patashu> where the fuck did he come from
10:25:35 <elliott> Patashu: anyway you probably just play really boringly
10:25:45 <elliott> i couldn't stand to play hyper-carefully in earlygame so i go by instinct
10:25:52 <elliott> earlygame includes up to like lair:3
10:26:01 <Patashu> if you play carefully in the early game
10:26:03 <Patashu> you only have to play it once
10:26:25 <elliott> it's the one place there are unavoidable daeths
10:26:43 <Patashu> unavoidable death, noun: a death caused by otab
10:30:53 <Sgeo> elliott, I thought you liked W:A
10:34:48 <Patashu> elliott: maybe you should not tab uniques and instead run from them
10:34:56 <elliott> Patashu: i opened the door to them
10:35:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: let's: not found
10:35:05 <Patashu> you could have still walked to- really?
10:35:09 <elliott> the real lesson is: check whether something's an escape hatch before going down it
10:35:58 <elliott> look at this abyss section
10:36:09 <Sgeo> Why am I installing the new version of Racket
10:36:32 <Patashu> I'm not sure if it's a vault or a consequence of the algorithm used
10:38:05 <elliott> imo worms should just always be fleeing
10:41:04 <Sgeo> "Good integration with the Racket implementation: primitive values have corresponding Swindle classes, and struct types can also be used as type specializers."
10:41:21 <Sgeo> Is Swindle more.... integrated with Racket than CLOS is with CL?
10:41:37 <elliott> clos is integrated fully into cl
10:41:54 <Sgeo> Well, not integrated as in part ofm, but integrated as in fewer rough edges due to being tacked on later on
10:42:21 <Patashu> elliott: you are worse at early game than kacy
10:42:48 <nortti> is there some advantage in using common lisp instead of scheme
10:42:50 <elliott> Sgeo: do you have any knowledge of clos at all
10:43:23 <Sgeo> Hmm, I may have misremembered the rough bits...
10:45:30 <Sgeo> structs aren't CLOS classes iirc, but that wasn't ... such a big issue?
10:45:41 <Sgeo> Oh, some functions aren't methods
10:52:24 <elliott> Patashu: anyway soon i will be above xl 15
11:00:05 <elliott> Patashu: should i try again
11:00:45 <Patashu> try the secret technique known as running from things when they enter los
11:01:00 <elliott> read-iding scrolls in the abyss
11:01:18 <elliott> The hellwing gestures at you.
11:01:18 <elliott> You feel strangely unstable.
11:01:24 <elliott> still have tele post-escape
11:01:42 <elliott> c - a cursed ring of hunger (left claw)
11:06:59 <fizzie> Ooh, mind reading again.
11:07:42 <fizzie> These guys won a competition about it, apparently.
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11:10:19 <fizzie> Sadly, it's just about feature selection and not the actual mind-reading.
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11:13:52 <elliott> Patashu: Should I play again? GhAK is hard. :(
11:15:10 <Patashu> ok, I'll play it locally and get to lair
11:15:25 <elliott> (please don't fucking win until i do though)
11:15:44 <Patashu> I have a game started on cao and webtiles
11:15:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
11:15:58 <elliott> or another game version on cao :p
11:16:07 <elliott> squarelos on cao if you can handle it!!!!
11:16:16 <elliott> (n.b. monqy conduct required)
11:16:51 <elliott> or make hyperpatashu like cool kids :P
11:17:45 <Patashu> three scrolls of enchant armour on D:1 so far
11:18:04 <Patashu> need something worth enchanting
11:18:12 <elliott> try suiciding so you can play online :P
11:18:19 <elliott> anyway you're clearly just wizmode cheating
11:18:27 <elliott> (also how can I ~learn~!!!)
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11:19:35 <Patashu> ok, I'll make a hyperpatashu
11:20:16 <elliott> btw you'll be breaking the laws of hypers
11:20:39 <elliott> the hyper accounts are when people play the first random character they get
11:20:45 <elliott> patashoe <- this is genius
11:21:01 <elliott> so many good naming opportunities!!!
11:22:52 <Patashu> great, is this the awful entrance vault
11:25:02 <elliott> Patashu: protip sac corpses
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11:58:26 <elliott> Patashu: i told you earlygame sucks
11:58:39 <Patashu> when I make a mistake I feel like it's my fault
11:58:43 <elliott> crawl is really fun when it's all about getting the runes
11:58:47 <elliott> they're just stupi mistakes though ugh
11:58:48 <Patashu> I didn't have to fight those
11:59:02 <elliott> seriously if crawl just dumped you with a cleared lair at the very start
11:59:07 <elliott> and all the loot and stats it entails
12:00:52 <fizzie> Okay, the current presenter has written a book titled "Consciousness and Robot Sentience".
12:01:16 <fizzie> He's also from a philosophy department of someplace or another.
12:01:28 <fizzie> And after the talk there's a "robot demo".
12:01:46 <fizzie> I wonder if it's sentient.
12:01:48 <Sgeo_> If I try to learn Racket at the same time I try to go through SICP, will I become confused?
12:01:58 <Sgeo_> I mean, very similar languages with some significant differences, etc...
12:05:00 <fizzie> "Consciousness is the presence of phenomenal internal appearance, the "subjective experience" of perception-related neural activity."
12:05:39 <fizzie> Consciousness is also not computational, apparently.
12:06:00 <elliott> is this the statistics guy
12:06:35 <Sgeo_> elliott, in Worlds, the Sadness and Glee buildings are bigger on the inside
12:07:41 <fizzie> His robot is not based on any microprocessors or programs.
12:08:02 <fizzie> It's based on neural networks, but they're not "your neural networks".
12:09:07 <fizzie> It's called XCR-1, it's the experimental cognitive robot.
12:09:16 <fizzie> And I'm not taking any classes.
12:09:26 <fizzie> It's this sort of a day.
12:09:48 <fizzie> The robot has "inner speech".
12:11:14 <fizzie> I'm sort of reminded of Mentifex, except he's not quite as... as all that.
12:11:48 <elliott> is this person actually in your university
12:12:01 <fizzie> Not my, but a university.
12:12:25 <fizzie> It can experience pain, and has mental imagery corresponding to words.
12:12:47 <fizzie> It's this guy: http://www.conscious-robots.com/en/researchers-and-associations/interviews-and-lectures/pentti-haikonen-talks-about-cy.html
12:13:38 <fizzie> Oh, the video is gone. But there's something about XCR-1 there.
12:13:49 <fizzie> He also has leaflets just outside the door.
12:14:07 <fizzie> Now he has the XCR-1 on the table.
12:15:30 <fizzie> It keeps repeating the word "hurt", I think.
12:15:46 <fizzie> It found a small object.
12:16:08 <fizzie> Or maybe it's "search".
12:16:31 <fizzie> There's also blinking lights of different colors.
12:17:00 <fizzie> He's trying to hold a microphone next to it so that we can hear.
12:17:23 <fizzie> This all is... kinda weird.
12:17:52 <fizzie> He's shouting "green" at the robot.
12:18:21 <fizzie> It does not want green now.
12:18:36 <fizzie> That's the trouble with conscious robots.
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12:19:34 <fizzie> He said "green" and hit the robot, and the robot associated green with badness. And now it does not like green objects.
12:20:29 <fizzie> This is a strange event. Some of it like any CS conference, some... not.
12:21:07 <fizzie> I guess I should go to the pattern recognition society meeting now, that's pretty much why I had to actually come here today.
12:26:58 <elliott> Patashu: should have id'd O...
12:30:25 <elliott> Patashu: you just passde alir
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12:34:38 <elliott> uugh why isn't Patashu dying
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12:53:18 <elliott> fizzie: You *may* *die* to a *fungot*.
12:53:19 <fungot> elliott: and if someone says " freaky" for all i/ o commands, an empty ()
13:02:15 <david_werecat> !bfjoust awful_25 ->+>->(-)*8>-->(+)*8>++>(-)*5>(+)*3(+)*3<(-)*5<++<(+)*8<--<(-)*8<-<+(+)*31>(-)*31>>>>>>>([+[+[+[+[+[------[-[-[-[-[(-)*27[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]>)*21
13:02:18 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_awful_25: 51.9
13:04:48 <Sgeo_> Racket structs remind me of CL structs :/
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14:36:36 <DHeadshot> Here's a good question for discussion: Is Minecraft's redstone/redwire system Turing-Complete?
14:37:45 <nortti> yes. I got lefftif mwm to work. Can there be better window manager than mwm (not counting the tiling ones)
14:38:08 <Patashu> you can make a nand in it, and you can make memory elements in it. the only constraint is how big minecraft maps can get (which is currently limited by floating point representations)
14:38:23 <elliott> Patashu: there is no way to get infinite memory
14:38:30 <elliott> infinite initial arrangements do not really ocunt
14:38:35 <elliott> well it's similar to a CA really
14:38:45 <Patashu> aren't there things you can power with redstone
14:38:48 <Patashu> that re-arrange the environment?
14:39:56 <Patashu> it's possible I'm thinking of one of the redstone mods that add a lot more things to do with redstone
14:40:00 <Gregor> You can build a stack with pistons. Really, it's not at all dissimilar to computers. Its theoretically Turing complete, just limited by its "physical" nature.
14:40:05 <elliott> i think you are thinking of a mod yeah
14:40:30 <elliott> Patashu: Are you going to win that GhAK? : (
14:40:51 <elliott> Patashu: What did I do to deserve this?!
14:40:59 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, but that's as disingenuous as saying that a desktop computer is an FSM. It's true, but wildly misleading.
14:41:22 <elliott> Call it a BSM if you want.
14:41:34 <Gregor> I am quite happy to do that.
14:41:42 <Patashu> elliott: being a bad player who doesn't run from anything and doesn't bother to apply tactics will do that to you :P
14:42:26 <Patashu> and not care about food except when I want to heal
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14:43:12 <DHeadshot> If they get infinite maps properly sorted, would it be then?
14:43:29 <Patashu> it would still be limited by the number of particles in the universe
14:43:47 <Taneb> Make sure you get the right date for your exams!
14:43:59 <Patashu> Doubly important: If you get it wrong, get it wrong by being early
14:44:58 <DHeadshot> But, Ouch, you missed your exams Taneb?
14:45:06 <Taneb> I had a phone call this afternoon
14:45:10 <Taneb> I was late but didn't miss it
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14:57:09 <Taneb> Wow, I just got an email addressed to "Mr. Taneb"
14:57:44 <Taneb> About someone implementing Luigi in Python
15:00:20 <Taneb> How do I reply to this?
15:00:46 <Taneb> elliott: Phantom_Hoover: advice please
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15:00:52 <MDude> "That's Mamma Luigi to you, Mario!"
15:01:02 <elliott> Taneb: say it's cool and ask them if they might like to put it on the wiki
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15:01:34 <Taneb> elliott: good idea
15:01:47 <HackEgo> george97: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:01:55 <elliott> Taneb: oh, might be worth submitting to the file archive too
15:02:01 <elliott> pastebin links on the wiki make me twitchy
15:02:22 <Taneb> It's... an email attachment.
15:02:27 <Taneb> Probably even twitchier
15:02:59 <elliott> Well, they'll be the ones putting it on the wiki.
15:04:29 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, will do
15:04:53 <Taneb> Does the name "Carlos Luna Mota" mean anything?
15:09:50 <Taneb> Can you tell him not to make a brainfuck derivative then?
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16:04:08 <coppro> ugh, fixed points hurt my brains
16:05:22 <coppro> elliot suppose I have a function f and a value v :: (Eq a) => a. Is there a function to repeatedly iterate f v, f $ f v, etc. until I get a fixed point?
16:06:07 <coppro> or more generally, to iterate until the result meets a predicate?
16:06:33 <elliott> i do not believe you have a value v :: (Eq a) => a
16:06:35 <coppro> I suppose there is takeWhile pred . iterate fv
16:06:41 <elliott> I presume you mean v :: a, for some a that is Eq?
16:06:48 <elliott> (ok I do believe you have such a value, undefined)
16:06:59 <elliott> coppro: I don't believe takeWhile pred would work.
16:07:05 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> Bool) -> (a -> a) -> a -> a
16:07:39 <elliott> fixed (x:x':xs) | x == x' = x | otherwise = fixed xs
16:07:50 <elliott> but I think there is some simple composition for it
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16:08:52 <coppro> until is perfect for my usage
16:08:59 <coppro> (turns out I don't actually need equality, derp)
16:10:17 <elliott> until is one of those lesser-known prelude functions that everyone always forgets about
16:10:20 <elliott> so i make a point to remember it
16:11:03 <elliott> unfortunately Int -> (a -> a) -> a -> a is still missing.
16:11:09 <elliott> (or (Integral n) => n -> ..., whatever)
16:13:07 <Sgeo_> "In the following pages, ill try to explain what these features actually are (im just swanking here)"
16:13:25 <Sgeo_> (In Geiser's manual)
16:25:47 <Taneb> elliott: what would you call that?
16:26:01 <elliott> something like iterate or church or whatever
16:26:32 <elliott> we're ten days late for a new featured language!
16:26:33 <Taneb> I've heard it be called church and cascade
16:26:59 <elliott> which language should i feature
16:27:16 <Taneb> ais523 is biased, he suggested one, and he wrote one of the nominees
16:27:26 <ais523> what's the nominee list?
16:27:32 <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages/Candidates
16:28:11 <ais523> too busy opening far too many pages at once in Firefox
16:28:28 <Taneb> Deadfish, Eodermdrome, Kipple, Sortle, Unlambda
16:29:18 <elliott> ais523: but the article quality is a main factor!
16:29:20 <ais523> it's been around for a while, and it needs some love
16:29:28 <elliott> Kipple's article is OK, but it's a bit thin on the ground
16:29:45 <elliott> also, there's not enough intro to make into a blurb
16:30:19 <Taneb> elliott, that narrows it down to deadfish and Sortle
16:30:58 <elliott> Eodermdrome has enough info to turn into a lead in the semantics section
16:31:03 <olsner> rumors, rumors... http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2012/05/face_opera.html
16:45:02 <coppro> elliott: #haskell is stupid
16:45:12 <elliott> it took kmc years to decide that
16:45:27 <elliott> coppro: the best way to get an answer to a haskell question is to ask it on stack overflow and then link it to me
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16:48:48 <elliott> coppro: (this is not a joke)
16:49:43 <coppro> this is better than asking you here?
16:50:07 <elliott> the answer will have punctuation and be motivated by the desire to gobble up ever more rep (i stopped caring about rep months ago)
16:50:16 <elliott> also it will probably include more documentation links
16:50:21 <elliott> admittedly asking on irc is easier for me
16:50:23 <coppro> (also seriously. I asked them how to compose a two-argument function. The correct answer, as I googled in 3 minutes afterward, is Data.Composition. The incorrect answer was to run it through djinn and pl)
16:51:01 <elliott> or use (.:) = (.) . (.) if you really want
16:51:06 <elliott> but i don't like that operator
16:51:13 <elliott> (fmap . fmap) also works and is less awful
16:51:23 <elliott> but yeah it's ok to use a point for that and really what you should do
16:51:35 <coppro> I'm not using a point here
16:51:47 <elliott> "how can I do X with stupid requirement Y"
16:51:58 <coppro> and my composition is gigantic
16:51:59 <elliott> Data.Composition sounds suspiciously like a silly third-party library for an ad-hoc number of arguments that will probably be more confusing to read in the end
16:52:03 <elliott> at least the point offers a guide
16:52:21 <coppro> it's on a different device
16:52:33 <elliott> oh composition is that ... yeah, I would not advise use of that package
16:53:12 <coppro> it's better than the suggestion #haskell came up with of sticking the boobies operator in my code
16:53:38 <elliott> (f .: g) x y = f (g x y) is the correct way to implement that operator
16:53:47 <elliott> that operator is an abomination
16:53:50 <elliott> and one day you will hate it too
16:54:00 <coppro> why is it an abomination?
16:54:21 <coppro> (\x -> foo . bar . baz (quuz . quuux) . zork x) seems terrible
16:54:48 <elliott> well because it's a special-case that actually has a more generic underlying pattern (fmap.fmap), (fmap.fmap.fmap) etc. and it's a bad symbol for it and it's just generally yeck especially when it's not clear how many arguments are being used so you have to mentally expand it
16:54:55 <elliott> coppro: something that big wants defining in a where clause anyway
16:55:10 <elliott> thing x = foo . bar . baz (quuz . quux) . zork x isn't bad at all
16:55:49 <elliott> coppro: anyway patch dgamelaunch for me
16:55:53 <elliott> to do something probably impossible
16:55:57 <elliott> ais523: can you tell me if something is impossible
16:56:36 <ais523> elliott: depends on what that thing is
16:57:13 <elliott> ais523: OK so you know how you can send mail while spectating a game in dgamelaunch?
16:57:48 <ais523> that's done using a patch to the games in question ("simplemail" for NetHack)
16:57:50 <elliott> ais523: you know how that's annoying because it blocks off the whole screen while you do it and takes seconds after hitting enter to get you back to the action
16:58:08 <elliott> I want to patch dgamelaunch so it instead just pops a dialogue on top of the game as it runs down at the bottom
16:58:15 <elliott> the drawing the dialogue over the game frames is easy enough
16:58:17 <ais523> possible but difficult
16:58:24 <elliott> what sounds impossible is restoring the game afterwards without replaying a bunch
16:58:29 <ais523> you'd need to parse the ttyrec
16:58:34 <elliott> ais523: err, while spectating?
16:58:40 <elliott> wouldn't it require a full VT emulation?
16:58:43 <elliott> because it'll be trying to modify the dialogue
16:58:47 <elliott> except it really wants to be modifying the non-dialogue
16:58:53 <elliott> kmc: maybe i can steal mosh's
16:58:58 <elliott> ais523: so, it'll be a very non-trivial patch then
16:59:04 <elliott> it's really really annoying
16:59:28 <elliott> i usually open another terminal just to send messages
17:00:23 <elliott> ais523: I suppose it'd be simple enough if you just had to use a one-higher terminal than who you're watching
17:00:26 <elliott> it could scribble over that line :)
17:01:00 <elliott> ais523: another alternative would be to just write the dialogue willy-nilly, then replay from before it was first shown
17:01:06 <elliott> but that'd just result in the super-fast-replay annoyance thing
17:01:32 <elliott> the solution is to not try and build a generic game launcher thing with mail
17:01:44 <elliott> but ha ha I'm not rewriting dgamelaunch for DCSS and convincing CAO/CDO to switch
17:09:32 <Taneb> My dog just quacked
17:26:28 <Gregor> The phantom's gonna teach me how to break the submarine!
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17:38:49 <Taneb> elliott, Snap, Yesod, or Happstack?
17:39:17 <elliott> idk snap is all snap. but yesod has the yesody stuff too
17:39:20 <elliott> and happstack is quite happstack
17:39:28 <elliott> yesod has a lot of template haskell generally
17:39:35 <elliott> happstack is very "toolkitty"/"library"-style
17:39:44 <elliott> snap has pluggable sub-application things
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17:47:36 <HackEgo> nvt: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:50:38 <Taneb> I think I'll work on family-tree
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18:17:43 <Sgeo_> Somehow, my presence in Worlds is actually breaking stuff
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19:06:26 <HackEgo> fofo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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19:23:34 <david_werecat> !bfjoust awful_25_huge -->+++>-->(-)*8>-->(+)*8>++>(-)*5>(+)*3(+)*3<(-)*5<++<(+)*8<--<(-)*8<-<+(+)*30>(-)*31>>>>>>>([+[+[+[+[+[------[-[-[-[-[(-)*30[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]+>)*21
19:23:37 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_awful_25_huge: 56.6
19:24:58 <itidus21> It can experience pain -- this is difficult to say of course
19:25:45 <nortti_> !bfjout perkele [>>>>>>>>>[-.]<<<<<<<<<+++>+]
19:25:48 <ais523> david_werecat: wow, that's quite a god score
19:25:55 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for bfjoust!
19:25:58 <itidus21> like if magritte was to give a speech bubble on a robot which said "i am in pain"
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19:26:12 <nortti_> !bfjoust perkele [>>>>>>>>>[-.]<<<<<<<<<+++>+]
19:26:14 <EgoBot> Score for nortti__perkele: 13.6
19:26:25 <ais523> third on the leaderboard
19:27:00 <david_werecat> That's higher than I expected when I started it. Hence the name "awful"
19:27:02 -!- augur has joined.
19:27:15 <ais523> I note it's vulnerable to triplocking
19:27:27 <ais523> with all those ]s in a row
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19:27:39 <itidus21> i think that we can only ever be sure of our own sense of pain, and that we guess at all other times
19:27:57 <nortti_> !bfjoust perkele [>>>>>>>>>[-]<<<<<<<<<+++>+]
19:27:57 <david_werecat> Yes. Although, those help it beat the programs using small spikes.
19:28:00 <EgoBot> Score for nortti__perkele: 14.2
19:28:17 <ais523> what method does it use to beat slowpoke? just outrushing?
19:28:30 <ais523> my defense programs do better against it than my attack programs
19:28:48 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: waiting until a cell becomes 0 then putting it up to some higher value as fast as you can
19:29:05 <ais523> it defeats programs containing ]]] in their clear loop, together with some other formations (but ]]] is the most common)
19:30:23 <david_werecat> I can't say from the trace, but if slowpoke checks for zeroed cells than my program leaves a trail of ones; which could cause it to think I'm stuck when I'm not.
19:31:03 <Taneb> Man, I'm awful at BF Joust
19:31:56 <itidus21> i know this topic has come and gone, but i think about robots etc, when life directs itself towards the question of what is alive, how can i create life, etc etc.. i think it is a depressed life who thinks like that
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19:32:08 <ais523> david_werecat: IIRC it checks for ones too
19:32:48 <itidus21> and implies a dissatisfaction with the good things like campfires, flints of stone, and getting about the jungle in leather hides
19:34:35 <david_werecat> It looks like my program is just faster, since it uses a narrowing attack of order 35.
19:36:37 <david_werecat> Although, I'm still sure that I can't truly beat something in first place...
19:37:00 <itidus21> in conclusion, i think that the relation between "a life of wandering about the jungle as a hunter with a spear" and "a life of studying bosons and galaxies" is that it doesn't matter which
19:37:05 <ais523> when they were released, both waterfall3 and slowpoke had 100% win rates
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19:40:23 <david_werecat> awful_25 is just a parameter optimized version of awful_24 with a couple of new features.
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19:44:27 <nortti_> hmm. that could result in some interesting botloops
19:45:06 <ais523> #echo > text "#this is a proof of concept botloop"
19:45:06 <oonbotti> > text "#this is a proof of concept botloop"
19:45:07 <lambdabot> #this is a proof of concept botloop
19:45:15 <ais523> ah no, leading space in lambdabot's reply
19:45:33 <ais523> /that/ one's exploitable :)
19:45:39 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
19:45:53 <fungot> itidus21: does it help that this isn't true too?"
19:45:53 <fungot> #echo fungot #echo fungot
19:45:54 <fungot> oonbotti: and is able to take it off, and finally called f.) i have a feeling that a c compiler for symbolics lisp machines.
19:46:29 <ais523> #echo ^ul ((#echo ^ul )SaS(:^)S):^
19:46:29 <fungot> #echo ^ul ((#echo ^ul )SaS(:^)S):^
19:46:30 <fungot> #echo ^ul ((#echo ^ul )SaS(:^)S):^
19:46:31 <fungot> #echo ^ul ((#echo ^ul )SaS(:^)S):^
19:46:32 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: +m.
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19:46:40 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
19:46:44 <ais523> best way to stop a botloop ever :)
19:46:48 <nortti_> #echo `echo #echo ^echo #echo foo
19:47:18 <fungot> #echo ^echo #echo ^echo
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19:47:37 <itidus21> the second echo didn't actually get called in my schtick
19:47:40 <fizzie> Sorry, but I ruined it.
19:47:42 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti)!
19:47:58 <ais523> fizzie: a good response
19:48:10 <ais523> I managed to stop the botloop before you managed to stop it, though :)
19:48:24 <ais523> (admittedly, I started typing out the /mode command as soon as I sent the botloop, and pressed return as soon as I saw it had worked)
19:48:33 <fizzie> Yes, well, I blame this phone keyboard.
19:49:17 <nortti_> #echo `echo #echo @echo foo
19:49:43 <fungot> itidus21: erm. i did really well on my scheme so i guess the movie was written by you
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19:54:24 <itidus21> #echo ^echo #echo ^bf ,[.,]!fungot
19:54:25 <fungot> itidus21: isn't the language spec calls them, environments). *sigh* :) that's what contracts check. check.
19:55:16 <fungot> itidus21: the esco guys are funny :) ah, i count those days you don't know lisp much... output a 0 then quit.
19:57:37 <nortti_> ok. now I see why it doesn't work and I think it is a good thing
19:58:23 <monqy> invisible antibotloop prefix "thanks hackego"?
20:00:26 <nortti_> yeah. I had to look at oonbotti's debug log to seeit
20:02:06 <Taneb> Right better programs and drown it out
20:02:27 <Taneb> Correct better programs and drown it out
20:02:38 <Taneb> That's how I got on the high scores once
20:03:12 <monqy> analyse its behavioure/understand how it works and "snipe" it
20:03:46 <fizzie> Incidentally, what does it do if you submit a suicidal program with the same nick and name?
20:03:50 -!- augur has joined.
20:04:07 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_awful_25_tiny: 0.0
20:04:56 <monqy> i'd hope it would keep the best-scoring program from each nick/name
20:05:19 <EgoBot> Score for nortti__fail: 16.3
20:06:01 <fizzie> I don't think it does; you're free to downgrade yourself.
20:06:05 <ais523> nortti_: [-] can tie with some rush programs
20:06:13 <ais523> on half the polarities
20:07:19 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_awful_25_tiny: 17.1
20:09:28 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_awful_25_tiny: 16.3
20:09:35 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_awful_25_tiny: 16.3
20:10:41 <david_werecat> Now to wait for a better program to flush that out...
20:14:17 <fizzie> Man, the Python/SciPy/matplotlib mess to update the 'egostats' page is the slowest thing in the slow.
20:20:17 <fizzie> At least the clustering this time grouped the awful_X's (discounting tiny) together.
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20:20:59 <fizzie> And triplock2/triplock3, waterfall2/waterfall3 pairs, the first being the pair with smallest distance.
20:22:15 <fizzie> Also I only now realized that deewiant_allegro is a train too.
20:24:14 <fizzie> Allegro is the name of the Helsinki / Saint Petersburg train.
20:24:59 <fizzie> (And deewiant_pendolino is presumably named after the fast-ish Pendolino trains.)
20:25:20 <fizzie> So did I, and it still might be, but since the other one is unambiguously a train.
20:26:01 <fizzie> Plus Deewiant had a "sm3" earlier.
20:26:11 <Taneb> Guy likes his trains
20:26:17 <fizzie> Well, and that maglev thing, which also might count.
20:27:22 <fizzie> (And, uh, apparently "train" and "train2", according to grep.)
20:39:46 <Taneb> I think I'll play DF for a bit
20:42:38 <Taneb> You can watch me play DF :)
20:42:43 <Phantom__Hoover> I'm just not sure I'll be able to handle all the new things.
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20:44:04 <Taneb> I don't actually know
20:44:18 <Taneb> It's on noway.ratry.ru
20:45:05 <Taneb> I don't know the port
20:45:36 <ais523> ratry is the machine on which termcast is hosted, indeed
20:45:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:45:51 <ais523> and which you connect to to send to termcast (you connect to termcast itself to receive)
20:46:38 <ais523> what makes you think my initials correspond in any way to my name? I'm an INTERCAL programmer
20:46:57 <HackEgo> 2012-05-08.txt:05:13:41: <monqy> script -f >( cat ~/.ratry_login - | nc noway.ratry.ru 31337 > /dev/null )
20:47:13 <ais523> and ratry_login is "hello username password"
20:47:23 <ais523> without the quotes, and (IIRC) with a newline at the end
20:47:26 <Phantom__Hoover> Because I know your name is Alex Smith and I is a fairly common initial in the UK.
20:48:34 <monqy> Alex "Insidiouspseudonym" Smith
20:48:54 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: haha, that pinged me
20:49:04 <ais523> not because I have a ping on "Alex Smith", but because I have a ping on "INTERCAL"
20:49:12 <ais523> perhaps I /should/ put a ping on my realname…
20:51:39 <Taneb> My other nick uses my middle initials
20:51:57 <Taneb> And Phantom__Hoover's initials actually spell "PHANTOMHOOVER".
20:52:11 <Taneb> He doesn't speak to his parent
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21:05:53 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
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21:16:49 <Ngevd> I'm in a Ngevd-y mood
21:17:02 <kmc> TIL the London Underground has its own species of mosquito: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_mosquito
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22:11:33 <Sgeo_> o.O SICP has compiler writing?
22:13:19 <kmc> at the end of the book you write an interpreter for a register machine, a compiler from scheme to that register machine, and a runtime system including garbage collection
22:13:34 <kmc> afaik most college courses which use SICP do not get to this part
22:15:12 <Sgeo_> How do I keep from getting bored at the early parts?
22:17:26 -!- yiyus has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
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22:21:31 <pikhq_> Skim until you get something you don't already know?
22:21:45 <pikhq_> Or, at least, something you find moderately interesting.
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23:13:02 <oerjan> that _is_ what the late wp page had, anyhow.
23:15:50 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:18:33 * oerjan found an old version with it
23:25:48 * oerjan cackles a bit more after finding the source of that information
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00:50:41 <ion> http://www.rrrrthats5rs.com/games/dont-shoot-the-puppy/
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01:40:03 <kmc> did iPwn Studios ever produce anything?
01:40:24 <kmc> they've now sunk 3 years of "the collaborative effort of a large team"
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06:38:03 <itidus21> "we're not reinventing the wheel. we're beyond wheels."
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11:30:58 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
11:31:08 <elliott> Brain Raiter replied to an email on the dead mailing lists
11:31:21 <lambdabot> nortti: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
11:31:33 <Taneb> Who's Brain Raiter?
11:31:37 <elliott> the really really dead ones
11:31:40 <lambdabot> oonbotti said 15h 47m 40s ago: foo
11:31:42 <elliott> Taneb: google employee, intercal celebrity
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11:38:03 <nortti> #rawirc PRIVMSG oonbotti :#rawirc PRIVMSG #esoteric :#echo foo
11:38:07 -!- Taneb has joined.
11:41:06 <elliott> I have to do a history merge
11:41:34 <elliott> because someone copy-paste moved a page
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11:43:50 <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/ubeb4/if_we_are_running_out_of_helium_why_is_it_still/c4tyyxp?context=1
11:44:06 <monqy> is it worth clicking
11:44:40 <elliott> monqy: are you telling me you don't click every link sgeo links
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11:46:45 <Sgeo_> data:text/html.hello%20person%20who%20clicks%20every%20sgeo%20link
11:46:52 <Sgeo_> data:text/html,hello%20person%20who%20clicks%20every%20sgeo%20link
11:47:01 <Taneb> I'm not going to lose connection hear
11:47:47 <Sgeo_> ..before I was trying text/text
11:47:57 <monqy> file:///homeroot/virus.exe
11:48:03 <monqy> file:///home/root/virus.exe oops
11:48:09 <elliott> monqy: it was better the first time
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11:50:21 <nortti> what the fuck is /home/root/ anyway?
11:50:46 <nortti> root's home is /root on all systems I know
11:50:54 <MDude> Where programs go to in school when they don't have any classes to attend?
11:51:31 <monqy> nortti: that's the joke
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11:51:42 <fizzie> I keep reading it "homoerot".
11:52:03 <elliott> monqy: it's /home/root on some systems!!!!
11:52:06 <fizzie> I think I have a directory called "homeroot" or "roothome" or some-such; a backup-ish thing.
11:52:23 <monqy> elliott: ok then /homeroot is better i guess
11:52:43 <monqy> if anyone uses /homeroot then "joke's on them"
11:54:00 <elliott> monqy: do you know how to find ducks
11:54:43 <monqy> "look in my back yard"
11:55:04 <elliott> they have ducks in back yards in america??????
11:55:44 <monqy> i don't want ducks to be me how do i stop them
11:56:00 <monqy> ducks being me is a-ok
11:56:20 <monqy> it's a possibility
11:57:01 <monqy> it's a possibility
12:04:54 <Taneb> What does the "class C x y | x -> y" thing in Haskell mean?
12:05:04 <elliott> It's a functional dependency (not standard Haskell, an extension.)
12:05:10 <elliott> Read as: "x" determines "y".
12:05:23 <elliott> So if there is an instance C x y, there can be no instance C x z for y =/= z.
12:05:38 <elliott> That also means that if you have (C x ?), and you know (C x y), you know that ? = y.
12:06:27 <elliott> Generally type families are used instead nowadays. But they're not a universal replacement.
12:06:38 <elliott> For instance, reflection still uses fundeps.
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12:19:07 <fizzie> Taneb: Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
12:21:00 <Sgeo_> I am the corruption
12:21:33 <Sgeo_> When I am near people in Worlds.com, I cause them to have connection issues
12:23:28 <monqy> can i be the corruption too
12:23:52 <Sgeo_> I don't know how it happened
12:24:20 <Sgeo_> Although earlier I made an account with a name that I suspected could cause issues, I was using my normal account when people were affected
12:26:59 <Sgeo_> Reinstalls have not helped
12:27:04 <fizzie> You have gotten tainted.
12:27:16 <fizzie> Possibly a priest could help?
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12:46:42 <david_werecat> !bfjoust juggernaut -->+++>-->(-)*10>-->(+)*12>++>(-)*5>(+)*3(+)*3<(-)*4<<(+)*5<--<(-)*7<---<+++<---->(+)*28>(-)*29>>>>>>>([+[+[+[+[-----[-[-[-[(-)*31[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]+>)*21
12:46:45 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_juggernaut: 59.8
13:14:51 <quintopia> surprising to see a one-liner beat so many. do we have a new deewiant?
13:18:38 <quintopia> but you're pushing furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls back up the chart. greogr will be pleased :P
13:19:19 <david_werecat> If I had come up with the name earlier, that would save all the other versions skewing the results
13:19:37 <david_werecat> Alternatively, I could replace them all with suicide programs...
13:21:30 <david_werecat> Okay, replacing the old programs gives me second place
13:22:52 <david_werecat> First place is going to be difficult to beat, though.
13:23:44 <quintopia> i have a few ideas...someday when i get some free time...
13:26:00 <quintopia> david_werecat: why do you have (+)*3(+)*3? why not combine them?
13:26:33 <david_werecat> It'd be nice to see new programs. After all, according to the wiki the last major program came out in 2011.
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13:27:17 <david_werecat> It reminds me that I start backtracking at that point.
13:28:08 <elliott> david_werecat: bfjoust popularity comes in waves
13:28:12 <quintopia> hmm. didn't myndzi_3pass do a build like that?
13:28:13 <elliott> someone starts playing then everyone else gets into it again
13:29:48 <david_werecat> Most likely. I create spikes moving forward, then backtrack and reinforce them, then build large spikes and attack.
13:39:21 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pass_tweaked >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[(-)*21[-[+]]](+)*2)*21
13:39:23 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pass_tweaked: 37.6
13:40:25 <quintopia> and its only very minor modifications
13:40:52 <quintopia> no, the attack is the same as 3pass
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13:43:07 <quintopia> david_werecat: write a 3pass w/ poke and your attack method, if you have the stamina. i'd love to see if the multi-pass decoy build only gets better with a longer decoy string.
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13:44:08 <david_werecat> Okay, I'll just test by subbing in that 3pass_tweaked decoy scheme with my attack...
13:45:11 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>([+[+[+[+[+[+[-------[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*29[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]+>)*21
13:45:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Loving how XChat apparently has a lower startup overhead than gnome-terminal.
13:45:14 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 48.3
13:46:25 <david_werecat> The problem with the attack scheme it it's very slow for decoys over 7 in height.
13:47:04 <david_werecat> It was made to deal with the program that make alternations between small and very large decoys.
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13:49:58 <quintopia> it is slow yes. i used the same scheme in wireless_frownie
13:50:06 <quintopia> also it is subject to decoy-locking
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13:50:51 <quintopia> but yeah, that was clearly an improvement
13:51:03 * Phantom_Hoover decides to compile Dwarf Therapist from source just so he has something to do during worldgen
13:51:07 <quintopia> i wonder if making-the-decoy-line-as-long-as-a-poke-would-allow would improve it
13:52:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey awesome DF now does silent command line worldgen,.
13:52:31 <david_werecat> So poking is seeking forward and waiting until a decoy is hit, then quickly backtracking and building big decoys?
13:52:57 <quintopia> pretty much. it lets you have more decoys on longer tapes
13:53:07 <quintopia> but you would be making small decoys as you poked
13:54:59 <david_werecat> so something like this? (>)*5([[+[+[+[+[+[+[-------[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*29[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]+(<)*8(+)*16(>)*8]>[[+[+[+[+[+[+[-------[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*29[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]+(<)*8(-)*16(>)*8]>)*11
13:55:11 <quintopia> interestingly, 3pass_tweaked beats 3pass_mod on almost every tape length. that attack really is slow.
13:55:18 <Phantom_Hoover> But generally he's improved the configuration system a fair bit and more importantly there's now bundled docs for it.
13:55:26 <itidus21> . o O ( (watches on from a distance) I just can't think that abstractly... or I don't want to. I'm more, there are 2 trains heading in opposite directions: what year were they built? How many windows do they have? Is anyone train surfing on them? Is Ringo Starr narrating this problem? )
13:55:51 <quintopia> david_werecat: you don't have to do a deep poke. [ is sufficient to test for a decoy for this purpose.
13:56:39 <itidus21> Do they serve french toast in the dining carriage?
13:56:40 <elliott> `addquote <itidus21> . o O ( (watches on from a distance) I just can't think that abstractly... or I don't want to. I'm more, there are 2 trains heading in opposite directions: what year were they built? How many windows do they have? Is anyone train surfing on them? Is Ringo Starr narrating this problem? )
13:56:49 <HackEgo> 848) <itidus21> . o O ( (watches on from a distance) I just can't think that abstractly... or I don't want to. I'm more, there are 2 trains heading in opposite directions: what year were they built? How many windows do they have? Is anyone train surfing on them? Is Ringo Starr narrating this problem? )
13:56:57 <HackEgo> *poof* <itidus21> . o O ( (watches on from a distance) I just can't think that abstractly... or I don't want to. I'm more, there are 2 trains heading in opposite directions: what year were they built? How many windows do they have? Is anyone train surfing on them? Is Ringo Starr narrating this problem? )
13:56:58 <elliott> `addquote <itidus21> . o O ( (watches on from a distance) I just can't think that abstractly... or I don't want to. I'm more, there are 2 trains heading in opposite directions: what year were they built? How many windows do they have? Is anyone train surfing on them? Is Ringo Starr narrating this problem? ) [...] <itidus21> Do they serve french toast in the dining carriage?
13:57:01 <HackEgo> 848) <itidus21> . o O ( (watches on from a distance) I just can't think that abstractly... or I don't want to. I'm more, there are 2 trains heading in opposite directions: what year were they built? How many windows do they have? Is anyone train surfing on them? Is Ringo Starr narrating this problem? ) [...] <itidus21> Do they serve french toast in the dining carriage?
13:59:11 <elliott> HackEgo repeating the quote is annoying when it's long
13:59:19 <itidus21> it's good because I had absolutely no expectation of being quoted.
14:01:52 <monqy> sometimes the future is hard to predict
14:01:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Having trouble getting it to fill a maximised terminal unfortunately.
14:02:53 <HackEgo> 309) <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it. \ 349) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup \ 352) <monqy> `quote django
14:03:49 <monqy> I've been here for almost a year now haven't I
14:03:51 <elliott> monqy: no that was old monqy
14:04:27 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1258
14:04:37 <elliott> your birthday was twenty days ago!
14:04:45 <elliott> 2011-04-12.txt:17:24:03: <oklopol> monqy: STATE YOUR BUSINESS or i guess you can idle too.
14:04:52 <elliott> 2011-04-12.txt:17:26:47: <elliott> hasn't monqy been here before PRETTY SURE THEY HAVE
14:04:59 <elliott> "he was always here; in our hearts"
14:05:09 <elliott> i like how your first two days you just slunk in and out without anybody noticing
14:05:43 <itidus21> monqy: well, not even the most imaginative minds could have linked chicken to t-rex
14:05:47 <elliott> 2011-04-15.txt:04:32:52: <monqy> I've never seen a bot forget where it put its PRIVMSG before
14:05:57 <elliott> monqy: i'm so glad your first experience of this channel was zepto
14:06:06 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod ->+>->+>->( [ [+[+[+[+[+[+[-------[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*29[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]+(<)*5(+)*32(>)*6[+[+[+[+[+[+[-------[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*29[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]-(<)*5(-)*32(>)*6 ]+> [ [+[+[+[+[+[+[-------[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*29[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]+(<)*5(+)*16(>)*6[+[+[+[+[+[+[-------[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*29[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]-(<)*5(-)*16(>)*6 ]-> )*22
14:06:09 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 26.4
14:06:34 <david_werecat> I can't seem to get good results from poking with such a slow attack scheme.
14:06:49 <elliott> david_werecat: do you know of egojsout?
14:06:54 <elliott> it's good for writing warriors
14:07:03 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/
14:07:16 <quintopia> david_werecat: you don't include the attack scheme in the poke!!!
14:07:43 <elliott> 2011-04-21.txt:05:22:23: <monqy> one time I had to deal with a 2G shar
14:07:47 <elliott> monqy: how did that happen
14:07:58 <monqy> 2011-04-15.txt:07:30:51: <monqy> sounds like a good dream I would like to have
14:07:58 <elliott> 2011-04-21.txt:07:44:57: <monqy> hello #esoteric. Phantom_Hoover is ignoring elliotts /msgs because he is a nazi.tell your frends.
14:08:02 <monqy> sounds like a good thing i would like to say
14:08:16 <monqy> i mean th ehting i pasted
14:08:19 <monqy> 07:07:43 <elliott> 2011-04-21.txt:05:22:23: <monqy> one time I had to deal with a 2G shar
14:08:25 <monqy> i think it was "proprietary software"
14:08:51 <elliott> 2011-04-23.txt:03:36:16: <monqy> it would be far more normal if your junk were kastrated
14:08:51 <elliott> 2011-04-23.txt:07:47:13: <monqy> way to be decisive, marsupials
14:09:04 <elliott> these are so funny out of context
14:09:06 <monqy> what was the context
14:10:45 <monqy> 2011-04-27.txt:19:22:18: -!- monqy has joined #esoteric.
14:10:45 <monqy> 2011-04-27.txt:19:33:18: <monqy> heheheheh
14:10:46 <monqy> 2011-04-28.txt:09:20:12: -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
14:11:22 <itidus21> "2011-04-28.txt:09:20:12: -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello)." <-- wow
14:11:35 <monqy> that's been my quit message for over a year now
14:11:53 <elliott> it's a really good quit message
14:12:00 <elliott> i figured you'd just had it for life or something
14:12:07 <monqy> i dunno if i had a quit message before that
14:13:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-04-23
14:13:17 <elliott> 07:45:29: <pikhq> Double-o.O
14:13:18 <elliott> 07:45:49: <pikhq> Marsupials actually form an eggshell and then reabsorb it.
14:13:18 <elliott> 07:47:13: <monqy> way to be decisive, marsupials
14:13:51 <elliott> the other one was ruined by context too
14:13:55 <elliott> i advise nobody to read the context
14:14:33 <monqy> 2011-04-29.txt:23:14:52: <monqy> sometimes I eat because I am human
14:14:37 <monqy> i remember i used to talk like this
14:14:43 <monqy> man those were "the days"
14:14:47 <itidus21> i saw on some documentary that platypuses were finding secret places to mate even in enclosures
14:14:55 <elliott> old monqy is in a better place
14:15:57 <itidus21> so the result was that there was more platypus in the enclosure than the keepers knew about
14:16:13 <itidus21> my memory fails me on the details
14:26:35 <HackEgo> 2010-02-23.txt:18:33:45: <cpressey> (Etcha's also implemented in some horrendous Java that MissPiggy would probably like.)
14:29:47 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod Setup >+>->+>- Poke [ ->[<(+)*32<-<+<-]+ >[<(-)*32<+<-<+] ] Setup +>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8> Attack ([+[+[+[+[+[+[-------[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*29[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]+>)*30
14:29:50 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 24.2
14:31:32 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod Setup >+>->+>- Poke [ ->[<(+)*32<-<+<-]+ >[<(-)*32<+<-<+] ] Setup +>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*32>(+)*32>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*4>(+)*4> Attack ([+[+[+[+[+[+[-------[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*29[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]+>)*30
14:31:35 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 28.9
14:31:50 <Taneb> Is a low score or a high score better?
14:32:02 <quintopia> it does a lot better against 3pass_tweaked than the old version
14:32:39 <david_werecat> It would probably do even better if the poke was hardcoded rather than dynamic.
14:33:25 <quintopia> if after doing the poke, it ran the 2nd and 3rd passes all the way back to the flag
14:33:51 <quintopia> (which requires a many-case hardcoded poke afaik)
14:36:28 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod Setup >+>->+>- Poke [ ->[<(+)*32<-<+<-]+ >[<(-)*32<+<-<+] ] Setup ++>-->++>-->++>-->++>----<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*32>(+)*32>(-)*8>(+)*8>-->++>-->++> Attack ([+[+[+[+[+[+[-------[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*29[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]+>)*30
14:36:31 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 30.8
14:37:24 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod Setup >+>->+>- Poke [ ->[<(+)*32<-<+<-]+ >[<(-)*32<+<-<+] ] Setup ++++>----->++>-->+>->+>----<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*32>(+)*32>(-)*8>(+)*8>-->++>>> Attack ([+[+[+[+[+[+[-------[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*29[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]+>)*30
14:37:27 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 31.6
14:38:28 <quintopia> since the whole point of my asking you to add poke was to see the effect of a longer decoy string. you're just shifting the decoys to the right, not making more of them.
14:40:14 <Taneb> This guy injured his toe
14:40:19 <Taneb> This guy injured his toe
14:40:27 <Taneb> This guy injured his toe
14:40:36 <Taneb> This guy injured his toe
14:41:22 <quintopia> david_werecat: also, you are severly affected by this version's suiciding on short tapes :/
14:41:42 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod Setup >+>->+>->+>- Poke [ ->[<(+)*32<-<+<-<+<-]+ >[<(-)*32<+<-<+<-<+] ] Setup ++++>----->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>>> Attack ([+[+[+[+[+[+[-------[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*29[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]+>)*30
14:41:45 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 20.6
14:42:23 <Phantom_Hoover> (Genesis appears to have been written by someone not quite acquainted with what 'phallus' actually means.)
14:43:28 <david_werecat> Yes, it seems that enemies that are too fast cause the automated poke to misjudge
14:45:52 <Taneb> I keep forgetting DF mods exist
14:46:44 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod Setup >+>->+>->+>- Poke [ ->[<(+)*32<-<+<-<+<-]+ >[<(-)*32<+<-<+<-<+] ] Setup ++++>---->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*32>(+)*32>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>>> Attack ([+[+[+[+[+[+[-------[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*29[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]+>)*30
14:46:47 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 23.3
14:50:49 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod Setup >+>->+>->+>- Poke [> ->[<(+)*32<-<+<-<+<-]+ >[<(-)*32<+<-<+<-<+>] <] Setup ++++>---->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*32>(+)*32>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>>> Attack ([+[+[+[+[+[+[-------[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*29[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]+>)*30
14:50:52 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 1.2
14:51:07 <Taneb> That's... not so good
14:51:56 <david_werecat> Still trying to work out the poke automation, it's terrible right now
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15:25:26 <Sgeo_> elliott, I can't believe I'm only now reading Tyro
15:27:58 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod Setup >+< Poke [> >[<<<<<<-<->]+ <] Setup ---->>-->>-->>----<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*32>(+)*32>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>> Attack ([+[+[+[+[+[+[-------[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*29[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]+>)*30
15:28:01 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 17.0
15:29:27 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod Setup >+< Poke [> >[<<<<<<-<->]+ <] Setup -->>-->>-->>----<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*32>(+)*32>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>> Attack ([+[+[+[+[+[+[-------[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*29[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]+>)*30
15:29:30 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 17.7
15:39:53 <Sgeo_> elliott, have you read Tyro?
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15:48:06 <Sgeo_> Things keep happening, then later the obvious is pointed out, and I never notice it
15:48:15 <Sgeo_> Until it's pointed out
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16:07:57 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=csxc1qV4
16:08:04 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 40.1
16:08:35 <david_werecat> There we go, a full poke based strategy with a 3 pass setup and the juggernaut attack.
16:12:41 <Sgeo_> Yay, I saw the obvious before it occured!
16:12:56 <Sgeo_> All these characters seem to love the idiot ball
16:13:00 <Sgeo_> They should marry it
16:14:10 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=r80bwZBY
16:14:13 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 44.6
16:14:39 <Sgeo_> Gareth. Is. A. Fucking. Idiot.
16:16:30 <david_werecat> What it does is poke leaving a trail then setup defenses and seek back to the found point, then attack.
16:19:07 <quintopia> david_werecat: i said hardcode, not hardcore
16:19:17 <quintopia> distinguishing it from an automated poke
16:20:17 <david_werecat> It could be improved with a better defense setup and a wider trail.
16:20:51 <quintopia> perhaps smaller decoys? lots of "big enough" decoys seems to be better than a few large ones
16:21:41 <david_werecat> That could work. I could increase the maximum number of decoys to something like 10 or 12 instead of 8.
16:24:02 <quintopia> david_werecat: 3pass_tweaked beats it on tape lengths up to 25. you might want to skip some of the decoy passes on short tapes?
16:25:04 <quintopia> also, your first branch in that program will never be entered: the enemy cannot possibly write to the 5th cell by the 6th step of the match
16:25:30 <david_werecat> That would probably work. Right now it does a full setup for all tape lengths except for very short tapes.
16:27:45 <quintopia> david_werecat: also, you are wasting time by going back to the flag, building forward, and then building back. instead, start your second pass going backwards from the instant the poke finds something.
16:28:08 <quintopia> do the second pass backwards, the third pass forwards, and immediately head off to the poked location
16:28:44 <david_werecat> This could take a while... maybe I'd be better off writing a program to autogenerate it instead of copy/pase...
16:29:15 <quintopia> everyone has had the same thought ...
16:29:38 <quintopia> if you implement a new language that makes generation of complicated strategies easy, let me
16:30:06 <elliott> david_werecat: that's been done quite a few times
16:49:24 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=L7LJzQfL
16:49:27 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 8.0
16:52:31 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=aJZmbxgT
16:52:34 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 39.2
16:55:03 <elliott> david_werecat: gregor's programs include their geberator
16:56:40 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=LFjpvYNd
16:56:44 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 40.4
16:58:05 <david_werecat> It seems that more decoys is only decreasing the score, even when I use the function DecoyCount(length)=length/2.
16:58:49 <elliott> too many decoys do badly, generally
16:59:52 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=qaqaU8Qz
16:59:55 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 40.4
17:00:21 <david_werecat> Weird, it got the same score for a limit of 8 and a limit of 10 decoys.
17:04:15 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=FYnNNHJx
17:04:18 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 57.3
17:12:07 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=BUXxfHFi
17:12:10 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 56.3
17:12:18 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=FYnNNHJx
17:12:21 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 57.3
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17:33:20 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=aFrypBNd
17:33:23 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 60.5
17:47:35 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
17:47:47 <elliott> Gregor: Implement quintopia's scoring already
17:48:35 <elliott> Gregor: OK, at least implement the "things with negative points get dropped from the hill no matter what the score" thing, then :P
17:48:58 <elliott> Why are awful_25 and awful_22 still on the hill...
17:54:18 <Gregor> I was in first place for a not-unimpressive amount of time.
17:54:28 <Gregor> But then I got distracted by winning the IOCCC [haw I still win]
17:59:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:59:44 <Gregor> It reappeared this year after a five-year hiatus.
18:01:54 <tswett> http://www.ioccc.org/2011/hou/hint.html "This program requires ASCII."
18:02:00 <tswett> I'm not entirely sure what that means.
18:02:27 <tswett> What does it require of ASCII?
18:04:42 <Gregor> tswett: Probably it assumes that characters match their ASCII values.
18:04:49 <Gregor> e.g. instead of doing x-'a' it does x-97
18:05:22 <pikhq> I generally consider that "fair game". :)
18:06:00 <Gregor> pikhq: Poor EBCDIC users.
18:06:15 <tswett> Yeah, how's it supposed to run on i?
18:06:25 <tswett> I think it's kind of stupid that there's an operating system called i.
18:06:49 <pikhq> Gregor: EBCDIC is considered legacy *on IBM mainframes*.
18:07:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:08:11 <kmc> poor KOI7 users
18:08:23 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:08:32 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/DcScript this looks less esoteric than BASIC
18:09:16 <kmc> also TIL that KOI8 "has the useful property that if the 8th bit is stripped, the text is partially readable in ASCII and may convert to syntactically correct KOI7. For instance, "Русский Текст" in KOI8-R becomes rUSSKIJ tEKST"
18:09:20 <kmc> that's cute
18:09:49 <kmc> kohctpyktop
18:10:23 <elliott> david_werecat: btw, if you move pages with the move button I don't have to do a history merge :P
18:10:51 <elliott> kmc: Did you just bash on your keyboard?
18:10:56 <elliott> I guess Russian is basically bashing on keyboards.
18:11:08 <tswett> elliott: no, he wrote "constrictor" in incorrectly-transcribed Cyrillic.
18:11:08 <elliott> david_werecat: It's in the menu next to "View history"
18:11:19 <elliott> It's... a bit obscured if you don't already know where it is.
18:11:31 <kmc> http://www.zachtronicsindustries.com/play-kohctpyktop/
18:12:47 <elliott> The arrow isn't really very noticeable.
18:12:56 <quintopia> elliott: i will get around to implementing my scoring in a couple weeks. i had it about halfway, but then life happened.
18:13:15 <elliott> Why would you decide to do it now when BF Joust has been dead for months :P
18:14:40 <elliott> kikubaaqudgha is most pleased with you
18:16:51 <quintopia> i love that myndzi_slowrush is still, after all these years, near the top (#11)
18:18:39 <tswett> You know, I don't *like* Kohctpyktop.
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18:20:51 <tswett> Unpowered wires act as 0s. Transistors are simply AND and AND-NOT gates.
18:21:42 <kmc> yeah, it's quite a primitive simulation
18:23:49 <tswett> I'd like something like it that actually uses 0, 1, and Z.
18:26:35 <tswett> Oh, duh. It's "constructor", not "constrictor".
18:27:11 -!- tiffany has joined.
18:30:53 * tswett opens up richards.c and tries to read it.
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18:31:57 <Gregor> tswett: Enjoying the thrilling narrative?
18:32:27 <tswett> So what does G expand to, ultimately?
18:33:55 <tswett> Something involving a lot of ##, I guess. What is ##, anyway?
18:36:42 <Gregor> ## concatenates two symbols in the preprocessor, allowing either or both (or neither) to expand.
18:37:02 <Gregor> #define A 1\n#define B 2\n#define C A ## B /* this is 12, not 1 2 */
18:38:38 <tswett> Something tells me G is a huge list of numbers in base 3.
18:39:44 <tswett> A(x,y,z) looks like xyz1 xyz2 xyz3, aye? So B(x,y) looks like xy11 xy12 xy13 xy21 xy22 xy23 xy31 xy32 xy33, and C(x,y) looks like, uh...
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18:40:34 <Gregor> A,B,C,D,G are the only really complicated macros, but you've got 'em.
18:40:44 <tswett> So, "q o(*f) (vo o *);" means "typedef void(*f) (volatile void*);"?
18:41:29 <Gregor> You should consider removing A,B,C,D,G and the #includes and running the remainder thru a C preprocessor.
18:41:35 <Gregor> (Then readding the includes and A,B,C,D,G)
18:43:00 <tswett> Anyway, I assume it, like, compiles whatever you write into bytecode and then interprets that.
18:43:52 <tswett> Or... or maybe it has a bunch of little functions that it uses as pieces, or something. I hope not.
18:45:35 <Gregor> It's not an interpreter, it's a JIT.
18:45:45 <Gregor> And it has no intermediary format, only source and machine code.
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18:53:21 <HackEgo> 403) <Phantom_Hoover> The wickedest man of all. <Phantom_Hoover> Surpassed only in wickedness by the wicked witches of the west and east. <copumpkin> you talking about me again? <Phantom_Hoover> Yes. <copumpkin> k
18:55:11 <olsner> hehe, I was wondering how soon someone would be bothered I only did one `quote
18:55:51 <olsner> I can ask for a quote again tomorrow
18:56:23 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
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19:17:54 <HackEgo> 453) <oklopol> interestingly enough, go is a second player win <oklopol> chess is also first player win <oklopol> tennis, interestingly enough, is always a draw.
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19:18:50 <HackEgo> 820) <oklopol> nortti: fizzie has done some impressive stuff in befunge, which is essentially the two-dimensional version of finnish politics. \ 821) <elliott> It's... not really links2-optimised. <nortti> elliott: I don't think that any page is links2 optimised
19:19:14 <elliott> only cool people have their first quote mention was quoting them
19:19:16 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ 2) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 3) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 4) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 5) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told
19:19:21 <HackEgo> 172) <fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature. \ 175) <fungot> elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task. \ 184) <Gregor> elliott: My university has two Poultry Science buildings. <Gregor> Two! \ 192) <elliott> Vorpal loves the sodomy. <Vorpal>
19:19:23 <HackEgo> 309) <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it. \ 349) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup \ 352) <monqy> `quote django
19:19:32 <elliott> can we delete 172, 175, 184
19:20:18 <olsner> could edit away the elliott since it's actually just fungot speaking in those
19:20:26 <HackEgo> 192) <elliott> Vorpal loves the sodomy. <Vorpal> elliott, sure why not \ 193) <elliott> So it's not exactly trivial. [Later about same thing] <elliott> It's a trivial C program :P \ 200) * pikhq sticks several thousand kg m^2/A s^3 through elliot <elliott> pikhq: I'm underage! \ 203) <elliott> quintopia: that's offensive, i was in a mirror accident and now my second half is a permanent mirror <elliott> typing is
19:20:31 <ais523> elliott: you can do that instead
19:20:33 <HackEgo> 704) <kallisti> interestingly enough it takes about as much time for a person to produce cfunge as it does to create a baby. \ 707) <kallisti> man, I love pseudo-random decision making <Gregor> kallisti: Man, I base most of my life on pseudo-random decision making. <oklopol> i usually just ask my dick and i then rarely even bother to listen \ 746) <monqy> kallisti: by ordered multiset did you mean: list??????
19:20:37 <HackEgo> 24) <ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is utterly bonkers \ 25) IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler! \ 26) SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente
19:20:40 <HackEgo> 112) <alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English <ais523> alise: that's great filler <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language... \ 121) <alise> cmake is a nuclear powered waffle iron powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment <alise> and it burns one of the waffles and doesn't touch the other. \ 141) <alise> So basically
19:20:41 <elliott> 20:19 <elliott> only cool people have their first quote mention was quoting them
19:20:41 <elliott> 20:19 <elliott> *as quoting
19:20:42 <Sgeo_> What's kallisti doing on TV Tropes?
19:20:44 <Sgeo_> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppleOfDiscord
19:20:46 <HackEgo> 17) <oerjan> ehird has gone insane, clearly. \ 22) <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste \ 23) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerjan> In an alternate universe, I would say "In an alternate universe, ehird has taste" \ 24) <ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is utterly bonkers \ 25) IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch
19:20:56 <elliott> Sgeo_: did you know: discordianism
19:21:18 <elliott> cmake is nuclear-powered *and* testicle-powered?
19:21:28 <elliott> apparently testicles are radioactive
19:21:51 <olsner> it's powered by nuclear burning-hot testicle attachment
19:21:59 <Sgeo_> My first thought was Slack
19:22:05 <Sgeo_> I'm thinking my thought was wrong
19:22:05 <Taneb> I think facebook's main advantage is that all my friends have accounts
19:22:11 <Sgeo_> That.. guy with the pipe
19:23:48 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:24:54 <HackEgo> 7) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 17) <oerjan> ehird has gone insane, clearly. \ 19) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 22) <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste \ 23) IN AN
19:25:27 <HackEgo> *poof* <oerjan> ehird has gone insane, clearly.
19:25:39 <HackEgo> 145) <nooga> i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages <olsner> even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok \ 184) <olsner> DAMN YOU, I'm leaving <Vorpal> olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD DOMINATION! \ 198) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are now my baby nephew. <olsner> wtf, elliott is a nephew and his uncle is here? <nooga> what
19:25:42 <HackEgo> 616) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love \ 622) [in the context of Open University] <Ngevd> "Unlike other operating systems, Linux operating systems use Linux" \ 625) <fungot> Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov \ 627) <Phantom__Hoover> Also you steal Berwick from us and then
19:25:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quoerjan: not found
19:25:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5996
19:25:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quolsner: not found
19:25:57 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6368
19:26:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13369
19:26:20 <HackEgo> 438) <augur> ive been in #haskell and #agda primarily, recently <Phantom_Hoover> So is #agda now full of dependently-typed gay sex?
19:26:27 <HackEgo> 550) <fizzie> "Do a sea monster while whatever."
19:26:33 <HackEgo> 180) <cpressey> fizzie: I can never tell with OpenBSD! <cpressey> everything looks like an error anyway
19:26:33 <HackEgo> 273) * elliott injects coke into his testicles
19:26:35 <HackEgo> 802) <ais523> and then I spent much of the rest of the time trying to work out how to implement 3D Hashlife efficiently when at least one of the colors has free will
19:26:43 <HackEgo> *poof* * elliott injects coke into his testicles
19:26:47 <elliott> (a) why did I say that, that's stupid; (b) why was it quoted
19:26:56 <HackEgo> 230) <nddrylliog> are you always careful to have a small enough margin so that it can't contain the proof? <oklofok> nddrylliog: i usually use latex, and make sure my hd is almost full
19:27:02 <augur> elliott: youre like, legal now right? ;o ;o ;o
19:27:03 <HackEgo> 704) <Phantom_Hoover> Dinner? At two? <fizzie> It's four here already. See, UTC+2. You need to add a couple of hours. Or was that subtract? I can never get those straight.
19:27:12 <HackEgo> 174) <fungot> elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task.
19:27:13 <HackEgo> 497) <ais523> it's probably the same people who were trying to organise gangs of shoplifters as some sort of complex protest against the government's economic policy
19:27:15 <HackEgo> 156) <cpressey> < ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers < ais523> and just completely ignoring the input <-- some people live their entire lives this way, i reckon
19:27:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: not all quotes are there to be funny
19:27:35 <augur> elliott, whats your opinion on idris
19:27:37 <elliott> that one is there so that we never forget
19:27:43 <elliott> augur: we like edwin brady here
19:27:46 <elliott> (he co-invented whitespace)
19:28:16 <elliott> 174 isn't that good but cannot be deleted
19:28:20 <shachaf> Before Edwin Brady, everythingyouwrotewasallsquishedtogetherlikethis?
19:28:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: there's a few, but I don't recall any offhand
19:28:33 <olsner> "cannot be deleted" :)
19:28:56 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: How does Whitespace make you feel?
19:29:12 <HackEgo> 409) <Gregor> "<Gregor> Damn right!" wouldn't be much of a quote :P
19:29:42 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod http://www.pastebay.net/pastebay.php?dl=1062112
19:29:45 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 63.9
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19:29:57 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, not a Brainfuck derivative, I hold no opinion.
19:30:06 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: It's... Not?
19:30:38 <Taneb> Phantom Hoover is the Bruce Banner of the esoteric programming languages world
19:30:53 <shachaf> What's the language I'm thinking of?
19:31:23 <shachaf> I thought Whitespace was just bf-encoded-into-whitespace.
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19:32:36 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, I mean I'd be less than impressed if it was made today, but back in 2003 minimalist imperative languages weren't common as dirt.
19:32:39 <olsner> oh, it's the hulk... that's not phantom hoover
19:33:00 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: What do you think of "Oook"?
19:34:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I would bludgeon the author to death with their own cerebellum if it was made today but a) it was made by DMM and b) it was the first BF instruction remapping and therefore the only acceptable one.
19:34:18 <oerjan> <olsner> oh, it's the hulk... that's not phantom hoover <-- are we _sure_ of that?
19:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Well no he isn't, he just did it first so it was a good little joke.
19:35:08 <olsner> oerjan: the hulk is a comic book character, I have a hunch PH isn't
19:35:31 <oerjan> olsner: yeah phantom hoover doesn't sound like a comic book character at _all_.
19:35:31 <olsner> just a hunch though, I may be wrong
19:36:44 <olsner> yeah, so that would suggest that he probably isn't
19:37:03 * oerjan tweaks olsner's sarcasm detector a wee bit
19:37:15 <HackEgo> 719) <elliott> I'm not biased towards humanity over sentient .txt files.
19:37:19 <HackEgo> 173) <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
19:37:25 <HackEgo> 598) <ais523> if all my Facebook friends were to visit a page, it wouldn't make any difference at all
19:37:25 <HackEgo> 672) <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, cars aren't perfectly spherical.
19:37:26 <HackEgo> 322) <ais523> the big issue with category theory is that pretty much everything forms a category
19:37:52 <Taneb> I remember the context to 173
19:37:55 <nortti_> "If Satan designed unicorns, they'd look like this."
19:38:01 <Taneb> I miss having 1700 facebook friends
19:38:09 <elliott> do you have 839423842394324 now
19:38:11 <ais523> I like the first two, I won't miss any of the other 3
19:38:21 <Taneb> elliott, I deleted that account
19:38:39 <oerjan> if you know the spherical cow meme
19:38:54 <Taneb> olsner, I did what facebook called "deleting"
19:38:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't remember if it was a reference to that or not.
19:39:12 <Taneb> One day when I'm bored I'll bring out the Data Protection act on them
19:39:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile I am moving up in the world and now have ALMOST SIXTY
19:39:44 <elliott> Taneb: btw typical facebook deleting doesn't actually delete iirc
19:40:01 <elliott> Taneb: nah, there's a proper way to do it
19:40:09 <elliott> it involves not logging in for 30 days after you proper-delete
19:40:22 <olsner> the data protection act most likely only applies to countries where none of your data is actually located
19:40:23 <Taneb> Since that was... a few months ago, I should be safe
19:41:12 <oerjan> olsner: hey if there's one thing the uk is good at, it's making their laws apply to other countries.
19:41:25 <elliott> Taneb: yeah but iirc the normal deleting process doesn't do that? I don't remember
19:52:11 <Sgeo_> I accidentally caused my gf to want to try Multimedia Fusion 2
19:54:49 <Taneb> Okay, my old Facebook seems to exist
19:55:11 <Taneb> But I know how to delete it now
19:56:35 <nortti_> I have never had facebook account
19:56:35 <olsner> that's almost 9000 friends
20:00:47 <HackEgo> 203) <Sgeo> My quotes are boring
20:01:11 <elliott> nortti_: i can assure you we are all shocked
20:01:17 <elliott> `addquote <olsner> This quote is boring
20:01:20 <HackEgo> 847) <olsner> This quote is boring
20:02:55 <olsner> hmm, already 22:02, better hurry up and waste some more time before I need to go to bed
20:04:46 <olsner> could be worse, could be a quote about django
20:05:34 <HackEgo> 417) <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, little do you realise that everything you say and do is part of that great monad tutorial we call life.
20:05:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's not five
20:05:52 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:05:54 <HackEgo> 566) <fizzie> Isn't "strip nomic" just another word for all dating, though?
20:06:03 <HackEgo> 336) <Cheery> right now. but I'm about 4kiB away from a lisp interpreter running off the .cock
20:06:06 <HackEgo> 486) <Taneb> I combined the wholegrain breakfast and chocolatey breakfast for maximum breakfast efficiency
20:06:06 <HackEgo> 201) <Sgeo> Oh. Stuff that uses actual physical numbers stemming from science. Bleh *gets bored*
20:06:23 <Sgeo_> I hate the real world.
20:06:58 <HackEgo> *poof* <Cheery> right now. but I'm about 4kiB away from a lisp interpreter running off the .cock
20:07:15 <david_werecat> !bfjoust 3pass_mod http://www.pastebay.net/pastebay.php?dl=1062119
20:07:19 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_3pass_mod: 72.3
20:08:05 <HackEgo> 49) <ehird> no Deewiant <Deewiant> No?! <Deewiant> I've been living a lie <ehird> yep. <Deewiant> Excuse me while I jump out of the window ->
20:08:16 <elliott> david_werecat: ais523 thinks BF Joust is solved, I think
20:08:20 <elliott> so maybe he'll beat yours :p
20:08:20 <HackEgo> 622) <fungot> Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
20:08:20 <HackEgo> 390) <oklofok> if i became a serial killer, it'd be because i want to kill people, not because i'm crazy
20:08:21 <HackEgo> 734) [...] <fizzie> So if someone tells you "you're worth your weight in Ethernet", it's likely they think your worth is less than $2k.
20:08:23 <HackEgo> 137) <ivancastillo75> Oh I get it you guys just use this space to do nothing ?
20:09:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, does he mean that for any given program a better program can be made?
20:09:35 <ais523> elliott: not solved, but I think it's pretty easy to write a program that beats any defence program
20:09:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no, he means that there's a strategy which trounces anything good
20:09:56 <ais523> thus making the whole thing collapse into rush programs that spend their time tweaking constants to defeat each other
20:10:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i was thinking 390
20:10:28 <david_werecat> BTW, it's not a defense program. It's a poke based 3pass with a powerful rush attack.
20:10:38 <ais523> IMO this should be solved with a nesting limit
20:11:55 <ais523> I like 390 too, it's the best one there
20:13:48 <olsner> This just in: 'Borschts' has six consonants in a row in just one syllable.
20:14:18 <elliott> 21:09 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, does he mean that for any given program a better program can be made?
20:14:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: btw i think it's trivial to do this, if you define "better" as "beats the original"
20:14:34 <elliott> (but not necessarily anything else :P)
20:14:46 <elliott> trivial as in, there is some relatively simple algorithm that does it in all cases
20:15:28 <Phantom_Hoover> But it's also the only meaningful way to 'solve' it beyond writing the One Program to Rule Them All.
20:16:08 <elliott> a program that defeats all defence programs, thus breaking the whole strategy of the game, breaks the game
20:16:18 <elliott> (OK, it's not "solving", perhaps, but it's definitely breaking)
20:16:36 <elliott> (I'm like 100% sure there's no program that beats every other program)
20:19:50 <david_werecat> Funny, I keep getting ties agains elliott_interior_crocodile_alligator. I have wins agains all other programs.
20:20:12 <elliott> david_werecat: interior_crocodile_alligator basically works by breaking anything that assumes anything follows a reasonable pattern
20:21:23 <david_werecat> Normal Polarity - 3pass_mod wins every time Inverted Polarity - interior_crocodile_alligator wins every time
20:22:52 <Taneb> With another 2 on the end!
20:23:30 <elliott> david_werecat: the names are sieve and kettle!
20:23:34 <Taneb> I never found 622 funny
20:23:53 <elliott> david_werecat: anyway, interior_crocodile_alligator does things like that
20:24:09 <elliott> i've forgotten what it does, of course
20:25:11 <oerjan> <olsner> This just in: 'Borschts' has six consonants in a row in just one syllable. <-- otoh it's just 4 letters in russian.
20:25:14 <david_werecat> I could make something to beat it... or I could wait for three other programs to knock it off the list.
20:25:24 <olsner> elliott: I heard from elliott that it does things like that
20:25:49 <elliott> david_werecat: but it's one of the most durable programs on the hill!
20:25:58 <ais523> oerjan: in English, "eighths" has five
20:28:32 <oerjan> <Taneb> I never found 622 funny <-- wat that's hilarious
20:29:41 <olsner> fungot can do much better than that
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20:34:10 <nortti_> have you heard of Red Star OS?
20:34:47 <olsner> Naturally, it takes a good deal longer to say "mgrvgrvla" than to say "dje".
20:35:10 <ais523> pikhq_: not really, "y" is a vowel in that context
20:38:17 <nortti_> is dcScript even esoteric?
20:38:45 <olsner> that is true of any random arrangement of vowels
20:39:08 <elliott> nortti_: that's what i asked
20:39:50 <pikhq_> ais523: If we're going to consider how things are *actually pronounced*, then we should not even consider the letters arbitrarily used to represent things.
20:39:57 <pikhq_> We should instead consider just the phonemes.
20:40:22 <pikhq_> So, "eighths" has 2 or 3 consonants in a row...
20:40:24 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that's cheating too, "u" is an archaic form of "v" there
20:40:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the vowels from 'seculorum amen', all of which are vowels in Latin too.
20:41:02 <Taneb> pikhq_, I make it 4, but I pronounce things weird
20:41:45 <Taneb> Sort of a choking sound, then a t, then a th, then an s
20:41:59 <Taneb> Unless I'm not thinking about it, in which case 1
20:43:07 <pikhq_> ... You pronounce it with a phoneme that's not in English?
20:43:34 <Taneb> Or it may be the ch in loch
20:43:56 <pikhq_> Well, I suppose that's in a handful of accents in the Northern UK, actually.
20:45:04 <pikhq_> Still, pretty weird to do that there.
20:45:23 <Taneb> It's sorta a requirement
20:45:50 <pikhq_> *Pretty* sure that's fairly consistent with Middle English, actually.
20:46:48 <Taneb> So, I pronounce "eighths" like I'm from before St George's day, 1564?
20:47:05 <pikhq_> Modulo great vowel shift, I'd hope.
20:47:19 <pikhq_> The town of six pigs is pretty weird.
20:47:41 <Taneb> Oh god now I'm all self conscious about it
20:48:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait are you saying you /actually have a Northern accent/?
20:48:33 <pikhq_> Oh come on, I'm friggin' *American*. https://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/minor_differences4/accents2.png
20:48:40 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I don't think so!
20:48:52 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Well, he's from Hexham. I think the native one would be Northern.
20:49:03 <Taneb> From Newcastle, technically
20:49:22 <pikhq_> Can't say I've heard elliott.
20:49:28 <nortti_> hmm. why did þe english language drop letter þ (th)
20:49:29 <Taneb> Lived around the north-east, roughly, with a bit in itidusland
20:49:33 <pikhq_> Though, he too is from the mythical town of six pigs.
20:49:44 <Taneb> nortti_, typesetting handiness
20:49:46 <pikhq_> nortti_: Early printing presses didn't have type slugs for it.
20:50:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the voiceless th like in thin or cloth or indeed thorn.
20:50:33 <Taneb> I thought that was eth?
20:50:48 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: It's consistent with historical English usage.
20:50:59 <pikhq_> Eth died before thorn.
20:53:05 <nortti_> hmm. þ looks actually very much like one of the fuþark runes
20:53:30 <fizzie> You can take solace that Icelandic is still þorny.
20:54:08 <Taneb> Yeah, but Iceland has only three pigs more people than Northumberland
20:54:27 <pikhq_> nortti_: That's because it is one.
20:54:53 <Taneb> We're vaguely on topic, everyone.
20:54:59 <Taneb> We're discussing esoteric languages
20:55:13 <Taneb> Sure, they may not be /programming/ languages
20:55:16 <elliott> Taneb: our police force is very large
20:55:19 <Taneb> And sure, I may have just ruined it
20:55:20 <elliott> almost as large as an entire country's
20:55:49 <pikhq_> When English and a few other germanic languages came to be written with the Roman alphabet, they grabbed wynn and thorn.
20:55:53 <Taneb> We kinda help Tyne and Wear too
20:56:00 <olsner> your police force is almost as large as an entire country's police force?
20:56:02 <Taneb> Which has two cities
20:56:47 <fizzie> olsner: The police force of their country is almost as large as an entire country's police force.
20:57:18 <olsner> yes, hexham is austria
20:57:18 <fizzie> Just an interpreted "we".
20:58:05 <Taneb> That's twice the number of cities of Iceland
20:58:12 <Taneb> With half the consonants!
20:58:29 <elliott> iceland has only one city?
20:58:33 <nortti_> and three times the cities in finland
20:59:14 <nortti_> (other that that 2/3 city we only have forests)
20:59:30 <fizzie> How many people did Hexham have again?
21:00:09 <elliott> i'm an immortal incorporeal entity
21:00:43 <fizzie> Taneb: Then you would be Iceland's fifth-largest city, if you moved there.
21:01:00 <Taneb> Ashington would be the second
21:01:01 <shachaf> oerjan: Aren't you Hexhamite?
21:01:08 <HackEgo> 673) <ais523> also, why isn't monqy from Hexham? his name sounds like he should be \ 751) <ais523> oh right: Frooxius, you wouldn't happen to live in Hexham, would you? <Frooxius> No, sorry. <ais523> phew <Ngevd> How about Finland? <Frooxius> Why would I live there? <fizzie> That's a *very* good question. <fizzie> Why would anyone?
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21:01:20 <pikhq_> Huh. The population of Iceland is 320,060.
21:01:26 <pikhq_> That's impressively small.
21:01:36 * ais523 notes that Frooxius never actually denied being Finnish
21:01:49 <ais523> pikhq_: I noticed a while back that the population of Norway was smaller than the population of London
21:01:52 <ais523> it was a little mindbending
21:02:00 <ais523> as that comparison just feels so much like a type error
21:02:12 <shachaf> ais523: To be fair, no one asked whether Frooxius was Finnish.
21:02:18 <olsner> hexham => six pigs => sexpork [sexpk]
21:02:19 <pikhq_> ais523: Sure enough, by nearly 2 million.
21:02:27 <shachaf> However, Frooxius also denied living in Finland.
21:02:45 <pikhq_> ais523: 8 million if you count the metro area.
21:02:46 <Taneb> Frooxius questioned the reasons for living in Finland
21:02:53 <pikhq_> Which leaves London twice the size of Norway.
21:03:00 <olsner> Taneb: so would anyone who lived in finland
21:03:06 <ais523> Lumpio-: are /you/ Finnish?
21:03:30 <pikhq_> NYC about 4 times the size...
21:04:05 <pikhq_> Gets worse if you consider the Boston-Washington megalopolis as a single entity.
21:04:41 <ais523> hmm, what's the most populous city in the world? and what's the most populous country less populous than it?
21:04:48 <shachaf> Lumpio-: What's the Swedish flag doing there?
21:04:55 <pikhq_> ais523: Tokyo is the most populous, I'm pretty sure.
21:04:55 <olsner> boston and washington are close? who'd have thunk
21:05:05 <fizzie> ais523: (Greater) London has Finland beat, too. (We've around 5.4 million.)
21:05:29 <Lumpio-> Sweden is like yellow on blue
21:05:31 <ais523> so does washington dc or washington state have more people?
21:05:41 <pikhq_> Tokyo's metro area has 35 million...
21:05:42 <olsner> pikhq_: that information doesn't help me
21:05:50 <shachaf> ais523: I lived in Washington State!
21:06:04 <shachaf> So it has one fewer people than it did before I left.
21:06:06 * ais523 wonders how many non-Americans even know the two are distinct
21:06:17 <olsner> well, actually I know where washington state is, I just don't know where anything else is in usa
21:06:18 <ais523> probably comparable to the number of Americans who know the difference between England and the UK
21:06:35 <fizzie> It's quite hard to define "city"; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_population is mostly about the problem.
21:06:50 <ais523> hmm, what about "conurbation"? I think that has a well-defined definition
21:06:59 <Taneb> I have a friend who thought the capital of the US was called Washington, British Columbia
21:07:07 <pikhq_> Washington state has 6.8 million, Washington DC has 5 million counting the metro area.
21:07:22 <ais523> and the first definition Wikipedia considers
21:07:34 <shachaf> http://imgur.com/gallery/Jrohm
21:07:37 <Taneb> Took me ages to convince her that BC was in Canada
21:07:49 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Us_reg_dc_2872.JPG
21:07:55 <fizzie> ais523: Doesn't it still rather depend on how you define "urban"?
21:07:56 <olsner> there's also Washington Before Christ, the previous capital
21:07:56 <ais523> Tokyo-Yokohama is listed as
21:08:01 <ais523> Tokyo-Yokohama is listed as #1 on that definition
21:08:14 <ais523> we're spoilt in the UK because there's a definitive definition using speed limits
21:08:29 <ais523> the default speed limits change between urban and rural, so it's important to know which is which
21:08:41 <ais523> and the definition ended up being phrased in terms of street lights
21:08:56 <pikhq_> fizzie: Yeah, you eventually get to the point where the *name* of the city is ambiguous.
21:08:56 <Lumpio-> We have street lights in the middle of nowhere
21:09:02 <Lumpio-> On roads that would be dangerous otherwise
21:09:13 <Lumpio-> Also we have road signs for "entering an urban area" and "exiting an urban area"
21:09:18 <ais523> Lumpio-: same, but streetlights in the UK are specially marked (with reminder signs) if they give the wrong impression
21:09:25 <Lumpio-> Or well, not necessarily urban, but a densely populated place anyways
21:09:32 <pikhq_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Boswash.png You almost wanna call that BostonNewYorkPhiladelphiaBaltimoreWashington.
21:09:46 <Lumpio-> ais523: What, your street lights might have "note: this is not a town" signs on them?
21:10:08 <ais523> Lumpio-: they have "speed limit reminder" signs on them
21:10:14 <Taneb> What about the blue banana?
21:10:18 <ais523> they don't count as defining urban/rural if they have one
21:10:26 <Taneb> (which doesn't actually exist, but if it does, goes for MILES)
21:10:35 <ais523> reminder signs are pretty common on major roads
21:10:39 <ais523> both inside and outside cities
21:10:50 <ais523> (outside only if there are actually streetlamps to put them on, obviously)
21:12:17 <Taneb> Blue banana, Liverpool <-> Nice, has ~twice BosWash
21:13:47 <elliott> > length "5555555555555555555555555555"
21:13:58 <ais523> elliott: I'm guessing you copy-pasted the 5s/
21:15:31 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:15:36 <pikhq_> Taneb: Yeah, but Europe looks like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Europa-bei-nacht_1-1024x768.jpg
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21:24:12 <oerjan> <pikhq_> Which leaves London twice the size of Norway. <-- excuse me, we're up to 5 million now.
21:28:04 <fizzie> When life gives you limonite, make limonade.
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21:45:16 <ais523> !bfjoust insidious >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[([-{[+++]}>])%300]>{}]>]>)%20)*21
21:45:19 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_insidious: 24.5
21:45:35 <ais523> OK, I admit it, that one was designed specifically to beat 3pass_mod
21:46:23 <ais523> looks like I screwed up the timer clear
21:48:43 <ais523> !bfjoust insidious >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300]>{}]>]>)%20)*21
21:48:45 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_insidious: 28.0
21:48:48 <ais523> /that's/ what I did wrong
21:48:53 <ais523> now beats defence programs too
21:48:58 <ais523> shachaf: a competitive brainfuck-based game
21:49:02 <ais523> it's the best BF derivative ever
21:49:10 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
21:49:12 <shachaf> What does Phantom_Hoover think?
21:49:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover only hates bad BF derivatives.
21:50:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure it's really a derivative; it's more of an adaptation?
21:50:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: technically the commands are slightly different
21:50:30 <ais523> it beats every single one of my defence programs, as predicted
21:50:33 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not saying "hey guys look at my new esolang!!!", it's saying "hey guys I reworked Brainfuck into a duelling programs thing".
21:50:41 <shachaf> I'm going to make a BF ADAPTATION that ADAPTS the commands to be written with different characters!
21:51:10 <elliott> good thing the score is really low
21:52:04 <ais523> elliott: it beats every single one of my defence programs /and/ 3pass_mod
21:52:11 <elliott> what about other people's defence programs?
21:52:40 <ais523> because the rush is tuned to beat 3pass_mod, and the attack loop is unstoppable in defence without knowing every detail of it
21:53:00 <Phantom_Hoover> So I generated a tiny DF world and ran its history for 2012 years for a lark.
21:53:03 <ais523> (if I changed the 300s to 301s, or better still to random different numbers around that range, you couldn't defend against it without a copy of the program to compare against)
21:53:10 <elliott> what about other people's defence programs?
21:53:10 <ais523> I don't think anyone else has defence on the hill atm
21:53:44 <elliott> ais523: try one of the old defence programs?
21:54:06 <ais523> too awkward, and if it uses any principle I've heard of it'd beat that too
21:54:20 <ais523> and by definition, you can't expect me to remember an old defence program I can't remember
21:54:35 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
21:54:41 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies#Major_Programs, to be precise
21:54:43 <ais523> if I changed slowpoke's loop to that loop with randomized constants, it'd beat anticipation
21:54:59 <ais523> (anticipation works by assuming all the 300s are the same, btw)
21:55:01 <elliott> hmm, so david.werecat's program is based on myndzi_3pas?
21:55:07 <ais523> (which is how it beats slowpoke, where they are)
21:56:10 <ais523> also, [+++] is a surprisingly concise counter-defence clear
21:56:18 <ais523> (and has a 1 in 3 chance of being a fast clear on regular flags)
21:56:27 <ais523> (depending on the size of the opponent's counter-turtle)
21:57:16 <ais523> it beats 3pass_mod by reaching its flag before it /starts/ its decoy setup
21:57:23 <ais523> so it doesn't have to deal with the decoys at all :)
21:57:32 <elliott> faster than the fast rushes of days yore?
21:57:44 <elliott> *of the days of yore, or something
21:57:46 <ais523> it only sets one decoy of two cells
21:57:54 <ais523> so it's in the "very fast rush" category
21:57:58 <ais523> around equal to other very fast rush programs
21:58:01 <elliott> meh, a very fast rush sets no decoys
21:58:12 <ais523> yep, but you need at least one of two cells to avoid pokes nowadays :)
21:58:48 <ais523> anyway, it seems I'm the only person who's ever topped the hill with a defence program
21:58:56 <ais523> unless you count i_like_turtles, and you shouldn't
21:59:09 <elliott> ais523: can I pay you to research the algorithm that turns a BF Joust program into a program that beats it?
21:59:11 <ais523> quite a lot of top programs have been engineered to beat defence
21:59:16 <ais523> elliott: how much would you be willing to pay?
21:59:23 <elliott> ais523: not sure; how much would you want?
21:59:39 <elliott> see, I can trust you to answer that question honestly
21:59:41 <elliott> and not inflate the figure to get more
21:59:49 <ais523> bleh, it'd have to be a lot to work around the hassles of transferring money remotely
21:59:59 <elliott> nah, I'd come to Birmingham
22:00:17 <ais523> for a moment I thought you'd walk, and that's ridiculous
22:00:23 <ais523> your parents /shouldn't/ let you do that :)
22:00:42 <elliott> that's on the life goals list now
22:01:05 <ais523> I need to go for more long walks, really
22:01:27 <elliott> (do you think such an algorithm exists, btw?)
22:01:35 <ais523> yes, I've put some thought into it already
22:01:38 <elliott> it's obviously computable if such a program exists
22:01:58 <elliott> ais523: what have you thought?
22:02:06 <oerjan> you should totally walk and meet midway between birmingham and hexham
22:02:13 <ais523> I've had various thoughts on the issue, actually
22:02:25 <ais523> one involving starting off with a copy of the program and mutating it
22:02:34 <ais523> and a different one involving detecting the tape length as quickly as possible
22:02:38 <ais523> I think the second one is probably more promising
22:03:15 <elliott> I was thinking that you'd somehow create a mirror image of the program
22:03:22 <elliott> to cancel out whatever it did, except still clear the flag somehow
22:03:38 <elliott> you're like a normal program, but you get much more information
22:03:41 <elliott> because you know what the other program is doing
22:03:50 <elliott> so all you have to do is counteract exactly what it's doing
22:03:54 <elliott> I suppose you do need to know the tape length, tohugh
22:04:20 <elliott> ais523: actually, it's trivial that such an algorithm exists unless there exists a program that beats all other programs
22:04:22 <elliott> which I find a ridiculous idea
22:04:48 <elliott> because the search space is finite, etc.
22:05:10 <ais523> !bfjoust inisidious_2 >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[(<)*8(+)*50<(+)*50(>)*9([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300]>{}]>]>)%20)*21
22:05:13 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_inisidious_2: 32.5
22:05:29 <ais523> there we go; that makes it less good against 3pass_mod but /still/ good enough to beat it on every tape length and polarity
22:05:35 <elliott> ais523: will quintopia's scoring system buff that?
22:05:38 <elliott> he's been working on it :P
22:05:47 <ais523> !bfjoust inisidious_2 >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[(<)*11(+)*50<(+)*50(>)*12([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300]>{}]>]>)%20)*21
22:05:50 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_inisidious_2: 18.8
22:05:59 <ais523> OK, sacrificing short tape lengths never worked, it shouldn't work now
22:06:01 <ais523> !bfjoust inisidious_2 >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[(<)*11(+)*50<(+)*50(>)*12([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300]>{}]>]>)%20)*21
22:06:04 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_inisidious_2: 18.8
22:06:07 <ais523> !bfjoust inisidious_2 >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[(<)*8(+)*50<(+)*50(>)*9([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300]>{}]>]>)%20)*21
22:06:09 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_inisidious_2: 32.5
22:34:40 <tswett> Gregor: so it... creates new functions, fills them with machine code, and executes them?
22:36:16 <Gregor> tswett: Yes, that's what a JIT does.
22:36:36 <tswett> prot is -1. Presumably, that makes it executable.
22:36:57 <Gregor> -1 for protection is shorthand for "I WANT EVERYTHING"
22:37:52 <Gregor> (Since it's all bits set)
22:38:13 <elliott> is that guaranteed, I wonder
22:38:22 <Gregor> Nope, but it works on every platform I've checked.
22:38:45 <tswett> Now, is malloc essentially a wrapper around mmap?
22:39:18 <elliott> Gregor: Why didn't you just do ~0?
22:39:29 <Gregor> elliott: Too obvious what it means.
22:39:41 <Gregor> tswett: That's a ... generous way to put it.
22:40:15 <tswett> Gregor: are you saying that if malloc is a wrapper around mmap, it's a very complicated one?
22:41:21 <tswett> 'Cause I'm thinking, like, mmap(0, len, PROT_READ | PROT_WRITE, MAP_ANON | MAP_PRIVATE, -1, 0)
22:46:17 <ais523> elliott: _2 is different from the unsuffixed version
22:46:26 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_insidious: 0.0
22:46:26 <elliott> ais523: it's still cheating :)
22:46:36 <ais523> I'll delete the unsuffixed version so there's just one for you, if you like :)
22:46:45 <elliott> meh, replace the unsuffixed one, IMO
22:46:51 <elliott> I don't really mind _2, but I like them to have lots of variation
22:47:08 <ais523> it was, this one sets decoys, the other one doesn't
22:51:02 <ais523> I need to make it set decoys better
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22:55:47 <ais523> oh, and 3pass_mod doesn't genuinely beat anticipation
22:55:54 <ais523> it only beats it because I had to cut it down to fit within size limits
22:57:09 <ais523> I couldn't make anticipation its entire length because it wouldn't fit into some limit or other
22:57:15 <ais523> so I had to skip cases that weren't actually used on the hill
22:57:28 <ais523> sort-of like constant tweaking but bad
22:57:53 <ais523> it wins on most lengths on half the polarities, because the case for that situation happens to be the same as it was for another program
22:59:27 <david_werecat> I see that the new inisidious_2 beats my programs.
22:59:51 <ais523> it was specifically engineered to
23:00:09 <ais523> also beats /all/ defence programs using any principle I know about
23:00:16 <ais523> other than narrowly tweaking constants to target it in particular
23:00:23 <ais523> except possibly anticipation, because I forgot to randomize the numbers
23:00:33 <ais523> and vibrations, because I forgot the safety loop
23:00:56 <ais523> anticipation versus 3pass_mod on a length/polarity where anticipation wins is a thing of beauty, btw
23:01:28 <ais523> 3pass_mod gets oh so close ;)
23:01:41 <ais523> (you can probably tweak it to beat anticipation, btw)
23:03:40 <david_werecat> Most close calls can be overcome by changing the (-)*31 to (-)*29 or something lower in the attack scheme.
23:04:28 <david_werecat> I should probably mention that I renamed 3pass_mod to dreadnought.
23:04:51 <ais523> it's a different sort of close call
23:04:53 <ais523> you'll see when you run it
23:05:09 <ais523> (and an entirely intentional one on anticipation's part)
23:06:00 <david_werecat> Oh, if I remember correctly it'll lock me in an infinite loop.
23:06:14 <ais523> it's a really slow clear loop because I had to golf it heavily, so it's rather inefficient in terms of cycles
23:06:19 <ais523> (again due to size limits)
23:07:20 <ais523> how does dreadnought defeat normal defence programs, btw?
23:07:27 <ais523> I'd like to run it against defend7 but it isn't on the hill atm
23:10:03 <david_werecat> It uses a very large offset clear, coupled with a fast attack scheme.
23:10:20 <ais523> presumably the offset clear confuses polarity detection
23:10:43 <david_werecat> That, and if a cell is zeroed then reset, it switches polarity.
23:11:25 <ais523> huh, why is there both an hg up and an hg pull that do different things?
23:11:30 <ais523> also, triplocks are easy to defeat
23:11:46 <ais523> oh, you do pull /then/ up
23:12:21 <david_werecat> I couldn't defeat them for the longest time due to the absurd number of brackets in the attack routine.
23:12:41 <ais523> you just put a triplock detector in there and go right
23:13:45 <ais523> oh, the large offset defeats defend7 because those things can only be designed to handle a limited range of offsets
23:13:55 <ais523> so that's how it's defeating defence programs
23:14:35 <david_werecat> It's also sped up if there are multiple small decoys.
23:16:01 <ais523> that's not the case in a defence program, typically
23:16:09 <ais523> there's only one decoy that counts (except in the case of waterfall :) )
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23:17:51 <ais523> did you beat it with constant tweaking?
23:18:38 <Sgeo_> Does IWBTG count as good publicity or bad publicity for Multimedia Fusion 2?
23:19:06 <ais523> (also, IWBTG is a very fair game, really; I think someone described it as "wanting you to win")
23:19:27 <ais523> admittedly, it wants you to win by trying the same thing thousands of times until you finally have the pattern memorized and manage to pull it off perfectly
23:19:36 <ais523> but that's what the game's /about/
23:19:49 <ais523> (I actually Internet-know Kayin, who wrote it, incidentally)
23:21:51 <david_werecat> Actually, I found that the triplock series was the most difficult to defeat.
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23:22:44 <david_werecat> It was only during the last revision that dreadnought started beating them.
23:23:31 <ais523> [[+][-][+]] as a clear loop beats or draws with all vibration programs too, so I can't beat it with one of those
23:24:23 <ais523> on the list of "things I did a while ago but should have done still earlier": rebinding "print screen" to a multiple-key combination
23:25:20 <tswett> My laptop is superior. It has no physical print screen key and I have no idea how to trigger the virtual one.
23:26:28 <Lumpio-> Having an entire key for just screenshots was a bit overkill.
23:26:35 <Lumpio-> There's three keys on my keyboard that I practically never ever use
23:26:43 <Lumpio-> 1) print screen 2) pause/break and 3) scroll lock
23:26:55 <Lumpio-> I remember using pause/break in QBASIC but that was in the 90s.
23:31:45 <david_werecat> Okay, IE8 sucks. I don't care if this is someone else's computer, I'm installing firefox >:|
23:32:13 -!- david_werecat has quit (Quit: Page closed).
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23:34:09 <david_werecat> No, I just installed the full beta. They can deal with it.
23:39:20 * tswett ponders which keys he never uses.
23:39:53 <ais523> quite a few computer games use pause for pausing
23:39:55 <ais523> which sort-of makes sense
23:40:00 <ais523> except that people can never remember where it is
23:40:14 <tswett> It vaguely makes sense, if you think about it the right way.
23:40:23 <tswett> Anyway. F1. F2. F3. F5. F6. F7. F8. F9. Caps lock.
23:40:28 <tswett> I use all the other ones.
23:40:43 <Lumpio-> I've never used that for pausing
23:41:13 <Lumpio-> You never use the F keys? o_Ô
23:42:34 <tswett> I never use *those* F keys.
23:42:40 <tswett> I use F4, F10, F11, and F12.
23:43:46 <Lumpio-> Alt+F2 = run, Alt+F3 = terminal, Alt+F5 = maximize window
23:43:53 <Lumpio-> Also I usually mal Alt+F1 to something
23:44:02 <Lumpio-> What do you use F10-F12 for?
23:44:18 <Lumpio-> I mapped those to the numpad
23:44:23 <tswett> Maybe I should have a button for the terminal.
23:44:34 <tswett> I don't maximize things, however.
23:44:44 <Lumpio-> I rarely unmaximize things
23:44:56 <tswett> I guess it depends on the window manager I'm using.
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23:47:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh wait they both know how to smack people around with blunt instruments
23:50:03 <ais523> my volume controls are fn-3 and fn-4
23:51:34 <Lumpio-> I don't like key combinations for that
23:51:46 <Lumpio-> I wanna be able to adjust my volume with one hand
23:53:14 <quintopia> david_werecat: getting at the top of the list qualifies your program as deserving a section on the BFJ Strategies page. Willing to make one?
23:54:15 <elliott> is it based on myndzi_3pass?
23:55:30 <david_werecat> It uses a very similar defense mechanism to myndzi_3pass.
23:56:29 <david_werecat> Plus, it uses a poke strategy and the juggernaut attack.
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00:27:28 <pikhq_> git commit -m "Rewrote the entire thing."
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00:35:14 <Gregor> pikhq_: DOOD lies the first line of all your shell scripts is still the same.
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00:37:21 <quintopia> have your main() declarations changed? "{
00:39:02 <Sgeo_> *sigh* I'm going to download Multimedia Fusion 2
00:40:06 <Sgeo_> I just want to see the IWBTG source
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00:44:49 <BlueProtoman> Has anyone in here written a Brainfuck interpreter? I'd like to know how you handle nested loops. My code doesn't seem to do so, but I'm not sure why.
00:45:07 <Gregor> Has anyone in here NOT written a BF interpreter?
00:45:14 <elliott> try reading daniel b cristofani's
00:45:17 <oerjan> Gregor: actually i never have
00:45:29 <elliott> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/sbi.c
00:45:36 <oerjan> i guess i've translated bf to some esolangs
00:46:07 <oerjan> but that's compiling, at best
00:46:44 <BlueProtoman> Lemme show you my code for it. I've probably got some simple thing wrong.
00:46:55 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: did you get non-nested loops working, then?
00:47:10 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: Yes, I've got a simple "Hello World!" program running.
00:47:21 <BlueProtoman> I'm not using the brace table method, since I don
00:47:30 <BlueProtoman> don't have time to figure out how to fix that right now.
00:48:17 <BlueProtoman> That's how I do it. I just use a stack and iterate through the characters until I find a matching ]. Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong?
00:48:46 <Sgeo_> Bah the trial is limited to 30 days
00:50:28 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: btw a stack is overkill, you just need a counter
00:51:01 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: But then aren't I limited to the range of an int?
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00:52:33 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: yes, but do you really have memory for a stack of sizeof(int) elements?
00:52:49 <elliott> sizeof(int) being 4 or 8 on common platforms :P
00:53:22 <oerjan> sorry, i mean maxint, i'm just sure what it's called in C(++)
00:53:52 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: Point taken. OK, switched from stack to int64_t. Still not sure what's wrong with my loop, though.
00:54:17 <oerjan> anyway, any bignum implementation will work better than such a stack for the same amount of memory.
00:54:46 <oerjan> ...mind you you need room for the _program_ somewhere too :P
00:55:27 <BlueProtoman> http://ideone.com/YMbwL Here's where I am right now.
00:56:43 <pikhq_> BlueProtoman: To hit an *int* in your counter, you need to have 4 gigabytes of code.
00:57:00 <tswett> Ooh, you know what would be great?
00:57:13 <pikhq_> If you've got 4 gigabytes of Brainfuck to compile, cry.
00:57:39 <tswett> As everyone knows, 3 decibels is approximately a doubling, and 10 decibels is exactly a factor of 10.
00:57:44 <pikhq_> It's nearly 4 gigabytes too many.
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00:58:01 <tswett> What we need to do is define one "debibel" as a factor of 2^(1/3).
00:58:22 <tswett> Then 3 debibels will be exactly a doubling, and 10 debibels will be exactly a factor of 1,024, which is approximately 1,000.
00:58:57 <pikhq_> tswett: There's a much better unit to use.
00:59:36 <tswett> Well, yeah. A debibel is a third of a bit.
00:59:43 <BlueProtoman> Anyone have any idea why http://ideone.com/YMbwL doesn't handle nested loops?
00:59:50 <tswett> Which makes me want to create a programming language that has a "debibel shift left" operator.
01:00:19 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: i think you may have an off-by-one error in where currentinstruction ends up
01:00:27 <tswett> Gee, I really like this. A programming language where all you can do is arithmetic, and severely limited arithmetic at that.
01:00:35 <tswett> And therefore, computation must be carried out through rounding error.
01:00:45 <oerjan> as in, you go _past_ the last [ or ], but should stop _at_ it
01:01:16 <pikhq_> Yeah, probably off-by-one.
01:01:46 <BlueProtoman> OK, so why should I stop at the ] rather than one past it?
01:02:14 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: because you still have currentinstruction being incremented outside the instruction[...] code, right?
01:02:55 <pikhq_> It'd work just fine if you were having the currentinstruction++ inside each instruction instead of up at your dispatch.
01:02:56 <BlueProtoman> School is getting in the way of learning; I'm most mentally alert in the late morning, when I'm in class.
01:03:33 <oerjan> the other direction (not stopping at [) is harmless, but causes you to do an extra instructions['['], i think
01:05:39 <oerjan> pikhq_: yeah but that would be duplication everywhere else
01:05:50 <BlueProtoman> Still not working...here's my code so far. http://ideone.com/N4GRI Is it always this annoying to be so analytical about my code, or would practice just make perfect?
01:06:04 <pikhq_> Mostly a matter of practice, TBH.
01:06:23 <pikhq_> BTW, though probably not *highly* efficient, I rather like your use of C++11 lambda there.
01:08:16 <BlueProtoman> Or is that a bunch of technical jazz I don't need to worry about right now?
01:08:19 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: you might want to add some debug print statements so you can see what bf commands your code actually tries to execute
01:08:24 <pikhq_> It probably doesn't matter too much.
01:08:35 <pikhq_> Very few things need stupidly-fast dispatch.
01:09:04 <BlueProtoman> Since I'm here, I might as well ask, would you guys have any advice for a future computer science major? I'm starting college this fall in a pretty good CS program.
01:09:58 <pikhq_> Rule #1 for being a good programmer: do it a lot.
01:10:00 <elliott> BlueProtoman: if they try to teach java, it's probably a bad sign
01:10:00 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: anyway i see nothing wrong with that part of your code now
01:10:34 <elliott> imo don't stop programming yourself, and learn new languages and such
01:10:43 <elliott> especially ones dissimilar to what you're being taught
01:10:52 <Gregor> elliott: Unfortunately, leaving out all the schools that teach Java first year leaves you with almost nothing.
01:11:07 <BlueProtoman> elliott: In what way is that bad? Unless you mean teaching more Java than CS.
01:11:09 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: i might still be suspicious if currentinstruction is being incremented at the right time outside it, though.
01:11:40 <elliott> BlueProtoman: Well, Java is not a good language. CS programs that teach Java tend to teach a lot more "software engineering" type stuff than any CA, and have a tendency to do it badly.
01:11:45 <elliott> But yes, it's disappointingly common.
01:11:58 <BlueProtoman> elliott: Well, my program's heavy on projects that give me freedom, so I plan on putting a lot of love into what I make.
01:12:02 <elliott> Certainly not every single program that teaches Java in the first year is terrible throughout, but it's not ideal.
01:12:13 <pikhq_> Gregor: Leaving out schools that consider !Java to be a "hard" thing, rather than core classes, at least gets you to skip really bad schools, though.
01:12:35 <Gregor> pikhq_: Purdue teaches Java first semester, then C second semester.
01:12:49 <BlueProtoman> And of course I'm going to code. I code on my own time now, I will do so thus summer, I did for a project that was expected to be a PowerPoint.
01:13:06 <elliott> BlueProtoman: Also read SICP! (Disclaimer: I've never read SICP. But read it anyway.)
01:13:29 <quintopia> david_werecat: i think i can improve dreadnought
01:14:13 <david_werecat> I know by changing (-)*31 to (-)*29 I gain 3 points, but lost to one program.
01:14:53 <david_werecat> I know there are several other ways, but I'm interested to see what you think.
01:15:00 <elliott> Also hang out in #esoteric. That's the best way to ensure you never get anything done.
01:15:32 <MDude> On the wiki, I initially read DcScript as DrScript.
01:16:35 <BlueProtoman> What would you say makes a CS program "terrible throughout?"
01:17:01 <elliott> Teaching lots of Java and then doing C really badly and also being awful :P
01:17:11 <elliott> You'll probably know if it's bad.
01:17:19 <oerjan> elliott: add some php classes, right?
01:17:23 <pikhq_> elliott: Sgeo didn't know. :P
01:17:35 <elliott> pikhq_: I tend to assume people are not like Sgeo.
01:17:46 <elliott> This generally works out pretty well for me
01:17:50 <BlueProtoman> My school's actually well-ranked. It's not Caltech, but grads to go on to work at big companies.
01:18:23 <pikhq_> Which school, anyways?
01:18:26 <elliott> more protips: don't work for the nsa
01:18:47 <pikhq_> elliott: Can I ask why? (not that I'm likely to)
01:19:10 <elliott> BlueProtoman: augur went there! Or goes there. Or something. I'm not sure.
01:19:17 <elliott> I think he said they have a good CS program.
01:19:34 <elliott> pikhq_: I don't like it :P
01:21:05 <BlueProtoman> What was the course-load like? I originally wanted to do 18 credits a semester (since there's a lot I want to learn, even outside of CS), but now I'm not so sure.
01:29:29 <quintopia> david_werecat: i am changing it now, and i will test it and if it is better, i will let you change yours to it. if not, you can laugh at me.
01:30:07 <david_werecat> Okay, sounds like a good plan. If you do improve it, I'll give you a mention in the source code.
01:30:26 <elliott> quintopia: shouldn't you be working on your scoring :P
01:30:49 <quintopia> elliott: this is something i can do in a few minutes without much thinking
01:31:13 <quintopia> but yes there is something else i SHOULD be doing
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02:31:44 <quintopia> !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/QahW
02:31:47 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 65.1
02:33:11 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 0.0
02:35:08 <zzo38> I have two files to use the mzx_ascii.chr with Linux console; as well as mzx_ascii.chr file themself there are two more files: http://sprunge.us/HFFX http://sprunge.us/ZBOd
02:38:09 <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:38:22 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
02:38:38 <MDude> You may cease to laugh.
02:39:01 -!- oerjan has kicked elliott elliott.
02:39:10 <ais523> oerjan: I was about to do that :)
02:39:11 <oerjan> always forget with the reason
02:39:37 -!- elliott has joined.
02:39:43 <elliott> pls ban quintopia for lying & entrapment
02:39:49 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
02:40:07 <quintopia> !addquote <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:40:18 <elliott> quintopia: does not follow quoting standards
02:40:24 <elliott> pls ban quintopia for lying & entrapment & incorrect quoting
02:40:41 <oerjan> elliott: but... he _does_ get more lines that way, doesn't he?
02:40:43 <ais523> the command /name/ is correct
02:40:47 <ais523> you just pinged the wrong bot
02:40:48 <quintopia> !quoteadd <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:40:56 <elliott> it does not follow the guidelines
02:41:00 <ais523> and elliott insists on two spaces between comments
02:41:07 <ais523> when putting it all on one line
02:41:12 <elliott> sometimes a [...] goes between the two spaces
02:41:16 <elliott> quintopia: there is no link
02:41:41 <quintopia> i don't even know hack's command character
02:41:54 <ais523> I'm pretty sure at least one of the quotes instead has Unicode space that looks like two spaces just to troll elliott, rather than two space characters
02:42:16 <ais523> the great thing is that it trolls you even if there isn't one, because now you'll go looking for it
02:42:21 <ais523> and I can't remember which one it is
02:42:38 <elliott> ban quintopia for calling me stupid
02:42:48 <elliott> why am i not an op so i can execute all these corrections
02:43:15 <oerjan> self-answering questions are _so_ last century
02:43:21 <quintopia> `addquote <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha [...] <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:43:24 <HackEgo> 847) <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha [...] <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:43:33 <ais523> quintopia: elliott's about to revert that
02:43:54 <quintopia> i wanted to see if that wasthe command
02:44:07 <oerjan> also, the [...] was redundant
02:44:10 <quintopia> revert and delquote should be removed
02:44:11 <ais523> ^ul (<elliott> ha )::::*:*:****S
02:44:21 <elliott> quintopia should be removed
02:44:28 <quintopia> oerjan: it implied that he said it a lot more than i could fit in there
02:44:48 <quintopia> making it too easy to delete content discourages content creation
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02:44:53 <ais523> +ul (<elliott> ha )::::*:*:****S
02:44:53 <thutubot> <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha
02:45:07 <elliott> im going to ask for clearing to say ha a lot of times
02:45:13 <ais523> `addquote <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha [...] <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:45:15 <HackEgo> 847) <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha [...] <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:45:15 <elliott> ais523 can i say ha a lot of times if you say no i will block you
02:45:23 <ais523> is that the correct space around [...]?
02:45:34 <elliott> it's one space before [ and one after ]
02:45:35 <quintopia> i want to delete elliott and the guidelines
02:45:36 <ais523> elliott: and I don't really see how that adds to the channel; there's an #esoteric-blah for that sort of tihng
02:45:42 <elliott> ais523: it's not meant to add
02:45:50 <ais523> `addquote <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha [...] <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:45:53 <HackEgo> 847) <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha [...] <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:45:57 <elliott> -blah is sin because i no longer own it
02:45:59 <ais523> wow does that spacing look ugly
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02:46:08 <elliott> ais523: that's an incorrect use of [...], btw
02:46:16 <quintopia> ais523: i agree. double-spacing is atrocious
02:46:26 <ais523> elliott: I was just fixing quintopia's quote
02:46:35 <ais523> it means "out of context things elided", right?
02:46:43 <elliott> yes, but in this case all that was elided is more has
02:46:47 <ais523> I am going to maintain that those has belonged to three different conversations
02:46:50 <elliott> and it's a verbatim quote if you just remove the [...]
02:47:00 <quintopia> ais523: i want it to mean "this went on for a while"
02:47:03 <ais523> not in a particularly predictable interleaving, either
02:47:15 <elliott> just put more ha lines in there
02:47:15 <ais523> elliott is right that it isn't really needed, though
02:47:21 <elliott> so it edges up to the length limit
02:47:24 <ais523> `addquote <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:47:27 <HackEgo> 847) <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <elliott> ha <zzo38> Stop repeating yourself so much all at once
02:47:27 <elliott> quintopia: idk, HackEgo is a bit conservative
02:47:31 <ais523> elliott: no, then `quote will become a bit useless
02:47:32 <elliott> i think that is probably enough has
02:47:34 <ais523> if it picks that quote
02:47:49 <elliott> this argument has gone on longer than the has
02:48:20 <quintopia> i personally think that `quote is already useless. the function in OTHER channels serves to memorialize quotes forever. #esoteric's quote is so impermanent...
02:48:24 <ais523> so, where's that bot that kicked anyone if they repeated a line that had been said before in the history of the channel ever?
02:48:51 <oerjan> quintopia: lambdabot's quotes can also be removed, iirc
02:48:54 <elliott> ais523: i tried to set that up on #esoteric
02:49:00 <elliott> for some reason lament would not op it
02:49:01 <ais523> do people talk there much?
02:49:08 <elliott> also it segfaulted (it's a perl program) when processing the logs
02:49:22 <quintopia> eh, mostly people just come in and play with the bot for a while
02:49:26 <ais523> does it use extensions written in C?
02:49:36 <ais523> quintopia: that rather defeats the point of signal, I guess
02:49:49 <quintopia> for a while there was a "counting up" movement...see how many verses of 9999 bottles could be got in
02:49:55 <HackEgo> 492) <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb's been hit by melancholy. <Phantom_Hoover> He didn't have any friends, fortunatel.y
02:50:00 <HackEgo> 726) <elliott> I hate you.
02:50:08 <HackEgo> 553) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] <CakeProphet> @messages <lambdabot> quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell
02:50:08 <HackEgo> 703) <Phantom_Hoover> Dinner? At two? <fizzie> It's four here already. See, UTC+2. You need to add a couple of hours. Or was that subtract? I can never get those straight.
02:50:08 <ais523> quintopia: missing out the third line, I take it?
02:50:12 <HackEgo> 362) <CakeProphet> [...] I'm not very well-versed in lame.
02:50:21 <quintopia> ais523: a channel cannot survive if it is just a gimmick
02:50:26 <HackEgo> 138) <Sgeo> Why shouldn't I just do everything in non-Microsoft-specific C#? <ais523> it's like trying to write non-IE-specific JavaScript with only Microsoft documentation and only IE to test on
02:50:33 <HackEgo> 403) <zzo38> Sanity is insufficient by itself. Many other things are also important.
02:50:37 <HackEgo> 665) <fungot> elliott: young john soon afterward receives as a visitor a fnord spaniard, fnord de moncada, who has escaped from fnord fnord dissolved in the absolute.
02:50:39 <HackEgo> 275) <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, yeah, but Purdue has poultry science facilities beyond the dreams of avarice.
02:50:45 <HackEgo> 350) <cpressy> yeah the designers of the C++ template system really should have done a better job considering input <pikhq> s/done a better job considering input/been shot/
02:51:15 <ais523> elliott: there were five /before/ the no output
02:51:21 <Sgeo_> monqy, elliott has been updated
02:51:31 <elliott> ais523: all those ones were good even 726
02:51:38 <HackEgo> *poof* <cpressy> yeah the designers of the C++ template system really should have done a better job considering input <pikhq> s/done a better job considering input/been shot/
02:51:39 <oerjan> <quintopia> ais523: a channel cannot survive if it is just a gimmick <-- #irp still exists, doesn't it?
02:51:48 <ais523> oerjan: it's a honeypot for Reddit
02:51:50 <elliott> ais523: i liked that one because it reminds me of chris :'(
02:51:58 <ais523> or at least meant to be, sometimes actual conversation happens there
02:52:09 <quintopia> oerjan: exists? yes. but no more signally than #xkcd-signal
02:52:09 <HackEgo> 603) <fungot> fizzie: it doesn't *use* raw cgi. to my deep fnord i'm only fnord of the job description. it's badly fnord also.
02:52:10 <HackEgo> 712) <Phantom__Hoover> WTF is it with people with Irish names and logic?
02:52:20 <HackEgo> 752) <Phantom_Hoover> There.... is a box of Gardasil next to the butter in my fridge. <Phantom_Hoover> At least my sandwich will be immune to cervical cancer *and* genital warts, I suppose.
02:52:20 <HackEgo> 739) Note that the previous quote is, in fact, correctly spaced.
02:52:23 <HackEgo> 255) <ais523> OK, I give up, logging into Wikia is harder than writing a Firefox extension
02:52:35 <HackEgo> 738) <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? <oerjan> fizzie: +47 <fizzie> oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. <fizzie> I... guess you are geographically, too.
02:52:49 <ais523> is 739 out of context?
02:53:14 <elliott> note the extra space after the ?
02:53:16 <elliott> fizzie does that sometimes
02:53:26 <ais523> right, there are three
02:53:32 <ion> At least it’s not before the ?
02:53:39 <ais523> enigma has different floors !
02:53:55 <ais523> (sadly, that's a mutated version, the original line wasn't punctuated)
02:54:11 <ais523> who here hasn't watched the /worst advert ever/?
02:54:30 <ais523> well, probably there are worse ones, but the Enigma one is pretty bad :)
03:01:28 <zzo38> Does a mathematical equation have intelligent thoughts?
03:03:08 <ion> Only when evaluated
03:03:48 <HackEgo> 735) <fungot> [...] we choose only die fittest people of nigeria [...]
03:03:51 <HackEgo> 179) <fizzie> I don't trust ducks. They always look like they're planning something. I'm not sure it's a good idea to give them language capabilities.
03:04:00 <HackEgo> 676) <elliott> ais523: I pronounce "xor" by punching myself in the face and then "or"
03:04:01 <HackEgo> 388) <oklofok> "<pikhq> elliott: Americans also have 20 mile one-way commutes." <<< one-way commutes? you have like disposable jobs?
03:04:03 <HackEgo> 361) <CakeProphet> [...] I'm not very well-versed in lame.
03:04:45 <HackEgo> *poof* <CakeProphet> [...] I'm not very well-versed in lame.
03:04:55 <HackEgo> 562) <fungot> elliott: mr president, commissioner, i fully accept that description when it comes to human rights. yes, with an average fat content of chocolate, and we are using double standards! we all know that under present legislation and also in relation to standardization bodies. if i do not want.
03:05:00 <HackEgo> 333) <crystal-cola> 3 = 7/2
03:05:07 <HackEgo> 730) <oerjan> DeadlyFugu: the kind of aids you get in a mountain cottage
03:05:11 <HackEgo> 250) <ineiros> HELLWORLD! <fizzie> It's like HELLO WORLD, except not *quite*. <ineiros> There is more agony.
03:05:11 <HackEgo> 407) <elliott> im going to resurrect rutian <elliott> with vitamin pills <elliott> and book sales
03:05:51 <oerjan> i have a sense 730 must be out of context
03:06:45 <ais523> 333 is only good if interpreted as a Forte command
03:06:47 <quintopia> !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/dMfg
03:06:56 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 70.7
03:07:02 <ais523> quintopia: what did you change?
03:07:23 <quintopia> it improved his by .2 points! i just changed the very first line
03:07:23 <oerjan> `quote mountain cottage
03:07:23 <ais523> and ripping off other people's programs from the top of the hill is a little antisocial
03:07:26 <HackEgo> 730) <oerjan> DeadlyFugu: the kind of aids you get in a mountain cottage
03:07:35 <quintopia> ais523: he agreed to it in advance
03:07:47 <HackEgo> *poof* <oerjan> DeadlyFugu: the kind of aids you get in a mountain cottage
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03:08:04 <quintopia> ais523: he will resubmit his with my changes when he returns
03:08:24 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 0.0
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03:08:41 <HackEgo> 2012-05-31.txt:03:07:47: <HackEgo> *poof* <oerjan> DeadlyFugu: the kind of aids you get in a mountain cottage
03:08:53 <oerjan> `pastelogs mountain cottage
03:09:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1570
03:09:57 <quintopia> @tell david_werecat you can beat elliott_interior_crocodile_alligator by changing the first line to >+++>->>>
03:10:54 <oerjan> ah it was my attempt to interpret the `words output saeteraids as a norwegian word
03:11:30 <HackEgo> 697) <itidus21> myndzi\: ok so one of the nastiest puzzles i suppose is... you're on death row.. you don't want to die.
03:11:34 <HackEgo> 786) <elliott> then they edited their own talk page comments after someone replied to it, and edited /the replier's comment/ so that it made sense in context
03:11:36 <HackEgo> 625) <shachaf> Real Tar is GNU tar. <shachaf> You just ignore whichever features don't make you feel superior enough.
03:11:41 <HackEgo> 375) <oklopol> are there boobs you wack and squeeze around to move the mouse? [...] <oklopol> like those little nipples in laptop keyboards, but they'd be full-blown boobies
03:11:41 <HackEgo> 265) <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I have just one tvtropes page open in elinks, but my tvtropes.txt "queue" has 38 tvtropes.org URLs waiting for processing.
03:11:55 <quintopia> !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/dMfg
03:11:59 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 70.7
03:12:09 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 0.0
03:12:10 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
03:12:30 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for bfjoust!
03:13:48 <oerjan> 786 isn't particularly funny
03:13:51 <ais523> elliott: you could just run it locally?
03:14:02 <ais523> oerjan: it's another of those never-forget types of quote
03:14:06 <elliott> i'd have to download the whole hill and ugh
03:14:22 <elliott> ais523: i'd have to download the software come on
03:14:41 <ais523> you mean you don't have a local interp already?
03:14:42 <quintopia> the only thing that it doesn't beat with that change is insidious
03:14:44 <ais523> I thought you /wrote/ one
03:15:09 <ais523> quintopia: does it actually beat anticipation? rather than just hitting cases that were removed to save space?
03:15:13 <quintopia> ais523: how does insidious work again?
03:15:27 <quintopia> ais523: i don't understand anticipation dude :P
03:15:38 <ais523> if it beats it on both polarities, it's probably actually beating it
03:15:56 <ais523> and insidious works by rushing to its flag before it sets any decoys
03:16:21 <quintopia> as i recall, all versions of dreadnought lose to anticipation on one polarity on long tapes
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03:16:54 <ais523> yep, that should be both polarities, but I had to remove cases to fit it within size limits
03:17:03 <ais523> you can tell if anticipation's hit a missing case if it just stands there and does nothing
03:17:12 <HackEgo> 443) <ais523> (I don't include needing to use an object-oriented view of things as a reason to use C++, as C is better at that)
03:17:13 <ais523> when you'd expect it to be doing something
03:17:14 <HackEgo> 550) <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, Bashir, just sit there drinking, rather than diagnosing the carpenter mauled in that tragic bonobo accident.
03:17:24 <HackEgo> 248) <Vorpal> !bfjoust test (++-)*1000000 <Vorpal> probably will suck <EgoBot> Score for Vorpal_test: 30.4 <Vorpal> what
03:17:25 <HackEgo> 619) <monqy> never ever do bacon floats or i will hunt you down and kill you augh my leg
03:17:26 <HackEgo> 127) <oklopol> but yeah i'm not exactly comfortable with this stuff, to me it seems like if you can unscrew lightbulbs, why couldn't you see into the future, or through walls as well
03:19:48 <quintopia> why does anticipation set all tripwires and flag to 14
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03:22:14 <ais523> nothing, they just have to all be the same number
03:22:28 <HackEgo> *poof* <ais523> (I don't include needing to use an object-oriented view of things as a reason to use C++, as C is better at that)
03:23:08 <quintopia> ais523: with the change to line 1 of dreadnought, it beats insidious on long tapes on one polarity. makes me wonder...
03:23:10 <HackEgo> 729) <ais523> is there any evidence that Jesus knew the rules of tic-tac-toe?
03:23:15 <HackEgo> 768) <olsner> what a world it would be if you could actually *steal* code so that the other project has to rewrite it or infiltrate your project to steal it back
03:23:22 <HackEgo> 644) <elliott> Magnetic butterfly is slower than cat and restarting if you make a mistake is slower than vi is slower than mind-reading.
03:23:23 <HackEgo> 722) <zzo38> I have a program to tell you how far away Jupiter is. It is 4.33 units far.
03:23:24 <HackEgo> 119) <AnMaster> alise, marble <AnMaster> marbelus
03:23:32 <oerjan> elliott: that `delquote 8080 is just proof that ais523 will invent feather.
03:23:39 <ais523> quintopia: it does that anyway, it's just hitting a case that was omitted to save space
03:23:57 <quintopia> ais523: i said insidious, not anticipation
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03:24:31 <ais523> elliott: right, 644 I was surprised wasn't zzo38
03:24:39 <ais523> 722 is pretty awesome even if it means AU
03:25:00 <quintopia> !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/DCTQ
03:25:02 <ais523> so I think we're agreed
03:25:09 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 70.8
03:25:19 <ais523> on which two we don't like
03:25:21 <ais523> someone else break the tie
03:25:23 <oerjan> ais523: don't you see what a marbelus quote it is?
03:25:23 <elliott> 119 is so stupid that it can't really be deleted
03:25:30 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> Magnetic butterfly is slower than cat and restarting if you make a mistake is slower than vi is slower than mind-reading.
03:25:38 <quintopia> wololo...now it beats everything but atehwa_test_blah
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03:26:32 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
03:26:33 <zzo38> Jupiter is now 5.99 AU from the Earth
03:26:44 <elliott> ais523: did quintopia just break BF Joust?
03:27:11 <ais523> I doubt it, beat-everything programs have happened before
03:27:36 <ais523> I could constant-tweak anticipation to beat it pretty easily, although it's counter-beatable
03:28:10 <quintopia> it looks like atehwa_test_blah and insidious differ in exactly the right ways to make them hard to beat simultaneously
03:28:56 <ais523> !bfjoust insidious_2 >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[(<)*8(+)*40<(+)*40(>)*9((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>])%300])%305])%302])%308])%304])%301])%309]>{}]>]>)%20)*21
03:28:58 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_insidious_2: 7.1
03:29:12 <ais523> (OK, I doubt that beats anything else…)
03:30:04 <ais523> wait no, loses to dwdmodtest on every length
03:30:10 <ais523> I must have screwed something up somewhere
03:30:19 <quintopia> !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/BDQJ
03:30:21 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 68.2
03:31:00 <quintopia> now it beats everything BUT dreadnought :P
03:31:08 <quintopia> i think that makes it an improvement
03:31:19 <ais523> !bfjoust inisidious2 >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[(<)*8(+)*50<(+)*50(>)*9([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300]>{}]>]>)%20)*21
03:31:22 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_inisidious2: 30.9
03:31:23 <ais523> that's the old one, IIRC
03:32:03 <quintopia> now there is an insidious2 and an insidious_2 on the hill
03:33:36 <quintopia> @tell david_werecat changing the first line to >>>+++>---> beats everything on the hill except dreadnought
03:34:02 <elliott> your previous message may have been lost
03:34:07 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_insidious2: 0.0
03:34:13 <ais523> !bfjoust insidious_blatant_constant_tweaking >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[(>)*4(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>])%301])%305])%307])%304])%302])%303])%306]>{}]>]>)%20)*21
03:34:16 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_insidious_blatant_constant_tweaking: 7.4
03:34:42 <quintopia> !irp tell david_werecat when he comes around again "changing the first line to >>>+++>---> beats everything on the hill except dreadnought"
03:35:08 <ais523> quintopia: huh? that should lose to undermine
03:35:12 <ais523> unless I screwed up somewhere in that
03:35:17 <zzo38> Once very long time ago, someone who didn't know much about computers asked me to write a program to calculate the distance from here to the moon. Now, I have a program that does that and more.
03:35:31 <ais523> and blatant_constant_tweaking beats dwdmodtest on long tapes
03:35:49 <quintopia> beats undermine on every length and polarity
03:36:40 <ais523> tweaks I made to undermine to beat other things cause it to lose against the current version
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03:39:07 <quintopia> ais523: do you have a saved copy of dwdmodtest? i'm about to suicide it
03:39:11 <ais523> !bfjoust undermine_simple (>)*6(>[[>]>((-)*100[-]>)*21])*21
03:39:13 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_undermine_simple: 12.4
03:39:16 <quintopia> @tell david_werecat changing the first line to >>>+++>---> beats everything on the hill except dreadnought
03:39:22 <ais523> quintopia: not saved, although I have one open in egojsout atm
03:39:39 <ais523> quintopia: oh, and undermine_simple also beats dwdmodtest
03:39:46 <ais523> good enough (it's also in the hg history)
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03:40:21 <ais523> dwdmodtest is very easy to beat
03:40:28 <ais523> the issue is beating it with a program that can beat other things too
03:40:43 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 0.0
03:40:54 <quintopia> remember that dwdmodtest is just dreadnought :P
03:41:09 <quintopia> it is a very good combination of strategies all-in-all
03:41:13 <ais523> !bfjoust undermine_simple (>)*6(>[[>]>([(-)*100[-]]>)*21])*21
03:41:15 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_undermine_simple: 21.2
03:42:53 <ais523> as usual, undermine works better at beating my programs than anyone else's
03:44:22 <quintopia> our playing appears to have pushed elliott off the hill
03:45:43 <quintopia> i expect this will lose to *something*...
03:45:48 <quintopia> !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/PgTf
03:45:52 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 67.7
03:46:17 <ais523> what's the first line?
03:46:48 <ais523> was that just a blatant counter-undermining fix?
03:47:10 <quintopia> but it doesnt hurt it against anything else on the hill afaict
03:47:55 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 0.0
03:51:42 <quintopia> i think there is a bug on the hill? insidious2 didn't get killed. :/
03:52:06 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_insidious2: 0.0
03:52:11 <ais523> could have been race condition
03:52:52 <quintopia> looks like someone'll have to remove it manually
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03:56:04 <ais523> !bfjoust counterpoke >>>>>([<<<(-)*70<(+)*70<(+)*70(>)*8(>++++[-])*21]>)*8([<<<(-)*70<(+)*70<(+)*70(>)*9(>++++[-])*21]>)*8([<<<(-)*70<(+)*70<(+)*70(>)*10(>++++[-])*21]>)*8
03:56:06 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_counterpoke: 18.9
03:56:14 <ais523> also beats dwdmodtest, naturally
03:56:22 <ais523> and that's a strategy I haven't seen before, I just invente dit
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04:03:29 <quintopia> i wondered if there was a targeted counter-poke type thing
04:03:49 <ais523> this one still needs work
04:04:01 <ais523> and probably a code generator
04:04:12 <ais523> the idea is that you can tell, from where the opponent is poking, a range in which their flag might be
04:04:18 <ais523> also you can set decoys behind where they poked
04:05:17 <quintopia> yeah makes sense. only works for pokes that leaves trails i assume?
04:05:44 <ais523> or if you happen to catch them in the act of adjusting the current cell to test its value, for a slow poke
04:08:31 <ais523> hmm, tweaked it, it now wins against your test program on every tape length but 10
04:09:16 <quintopia> let me know when you've added the cool ais523 stuff to it :P
04:09:28 <ais523> I'm still working on the general rush algorithm
04:09:37 <ais523> I'll add a decent clear loop to it later, if I remember
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04:12:22 <ais523> !bfjoust counterpoke http://sprunge.us/XJXd
04:12:24 <ais523> I was still working on it
04:12:30 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_counterpoke: 22.6
04:12:34 <ais523> it doesn't follow an easily compressible pattern any more, although it is a very simple one
04:13:00 <ais523> !bfjoust inisidious2 <
04:13:03 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_inisidious2: 0.0
04:13:08 <ais523> it was just a misspelling :)
04:13:23 <ais523> ooh, counterpoke beats ffspg
04:13:56 <ais523> and dreadnought, and juggernaut
04:14:11 <ais523> (and scores a perfect 42 against your tweaked dreadnought)
04:14:37 <ais523> no it isn't, look at the decoy setup
04:14:43 <ais523> regular pokes start building from their flag
04:15:08 <ais523> this one puts a huge decoy at every location a typical poke would check, and none at every location a typical poke wouldn't
04:15:21 <ais523> also, regular pokes start checking just beyond the location they check
04:15:31 <ais523> this skips a distance forwards from there depending on the tape length
04:15:39 <ais523> counter-rule-of-nining the enemy poke
04:16:24 <quintopia> space_elevator leaves small ones intermittently
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04:17:02 <ais523> counterpoke /beats/ space_elevator :)
04:17:25 <quintopia> i'm just saying, counter_poke looks a lot like poke :P
04:17:46 <ais523> just one tuned to counter other pokes
04:17:54 <ais523> than one tuned to counter traditional decoy setups, like regular pokes do
04:17:58 <quintopia> but that's a good idea i never thought of
04:18:10 <ais523> I'm actually surprised pokes do so well, given how easy it is to simply drop a forward decoy
04:18:15 <quintopia> to start from the *next* cell after the one the poke got to
04:19:13 <ais523> oh, I've been doing that for ages
04:19:21 <ais523> triple_tripwire_avoider, etc
04:19:26 <ais523> just not normally combined with a poke
04:20:07 <ais523> also, most things that did that skipped forwards a fixed distance, rather than basing it on tape length
04:21:18 <quintopia> it seems like the time might have come...
04:23:41 <quintopia> !bfjoust dwdtripskip http://sprunge.us/VMXB
04:23:49 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdtripskip: 63.6
04:25:32 <quintopia> it beats anticipation on both polarities (as expected?)
04:25:54 <ais523> !bfjoust counterpoke http://sprunge.us/MGcM
04:25:57 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_counterpoke: 27.0
04:26:44 <ais523> some tweaks to make it weaker against pokes but stronger against rushes
04:27:38 <ais523> amusingly, it draws against poke
04:29:15 <ais523> which is just zero-checking so there's no way it can tell where the opposing pointer is
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04:30:59 <ais523> !bfjoust counterpoke http://sprunge.us/afcb
04:31:03 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_counterpoke: 29.1
04:31:10 <ais523> and that has some improvements against defence on long tapes
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04:31:41 <shachaf> !bfjoust help_how_does_this_work [>[+]]
04:31:44 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_help_how_does_this_work: 12.3
04:31:53 <shachaf> I have no idea what happened.
04:31:59 <ais523> shachaf: that's, umm, not a very good program
04:32:03 <shachaf> !bfjoust help_how_does_this_work [>>[+]]
04:32:06 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_help_how_does_this_work: 12.3
04:32:13 <ais523> you can try [>[+]+] so you aren't breaking out of your own loop
04:32:28 <shachaf> !bfjoust help_how_does_this_work [[+]>]
04:32:32 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_help_how_does_this_work: 17.3
04:32:32 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_null: 13.3
04:32:45 <ais523> null was not /meant/ to do well
04:32:53 <ais523> and I'm getting 29.1 on counterpoke atm
04:32:59 <shachaf> And yet it did better than null
04:33:16 <shachaf> !bfjoust help_how_does_this_work [[+]>[+]>]
04:33:19 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_help_how_does_this_work: 17.5
04:33:40 <ais523> so that's a vibration program (probably unintentionally)
04:33:40 <shachaf> I have no idea what's going on.
04:33:44 <ais523> and not a very good one at that
04:34:23 <ais523> hmm, counterpoke has a lot of potential, it mostly just needs a better clear loop, I think
04:34:46 <ais523> although I'd prefer to give it enough of a decoy advantage that the clear loop's irrelevant
04:34:50 <shachaf> What's the best score ever gotten?
04:34:57 <ais523> !bfjoust what_did_we_call_this (+)*-1
04:35:00 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_what_did_we_call_this: 19.5
04:35:16 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration (-)*128(+-)*-1
04:35:20 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 26.0
04:35:26 <ais523> haha, vibration gets 26 nowadays?
04:35:33 <ais523> people have been forgetting to build in protection against it :)
04:35:39 <ais523> I guess it beats fast pokes half the time
04:36:24 <ion> http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/stories/zoo-caretaker-licks-monkeys-butt-to-help-it-defecate.html
04:37:01 <ais523> ais523_vibration.bfjoust vs quintopia_dwdtripskip.bfjous t>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -4 2ais523_vibration.bfjoust wins.
04:37:03 <zzo38> That is a strange thing to do
04:37:39 <ais523> wasn't thinking straight for a moment there
04:37:40 <shachaf> Does your program compete against all the other programs or what?
04:37:41 <quintopia> i didn't put any vibration protection on any of my poke programs :P
04:37:51 <ais523> shachaf: it competes against a dynamic top N
04:38:16 <ais523> well, anticipation is basically just a smarter vibration, is one way to think about it
04:38:46 <quintopia> theoretically, though, the poke should get to vibration's flag before it starts vibrating
04:39:39 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>++<<(-)*128(+-)*-1
04:39:43 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 21.3
04:39:53 <ais523> oh, because it no longer beats the tripskippers
04:40:05 <ais523> that's a more "honest" score than the previous one
04:40:18 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>+++<<(-)*128(+-)*-1
04:40:21 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 23.9
04:40:42 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>+++<<(-)*128(+-)*70000+(>)*8(>[---])*21
04:40:46 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 23.9
04:40:58 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>+++<<(-)*128(+-)*4000+(>)*8(>[---])*21
04:41:01 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 26.6
04:41:04 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>+++<<(-)*128(+-)*40000+(>)*8(>[---])*21
04:41:07 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 26.5
04:41:09 <ais523> not that it's likely to make /much/ difference
04:41:25 <ais523> and now it's a constant-tweaking war against other defend-and-abandon programs
04:41:34 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>+++<<(-)*128(+-)*23000+(>)*8(>[---])*21
04:41:37 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 26.5
04:41:43 <ais523> oh dear, I've been hi'd
04:42:07 <ais523> vibration is now equal to triplock2 :)
04:42:24 <ais523> elliott: we're busy trying to break BF Joust again
04:42:35 <ais523> defence might not work, but there still seems to be plenty of life in attack program variety
04:42:39 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_dwdtripskip: 0.0
04:42:50 <ais523> I found a generic way of beating all the slow poke programs that are dominating the hill
04:42:56 <ais523> and it also works moderately well against fast rushes
04:43:17 <ais523> but it's currently hovering at #25
04:43:24 <ais523> despite beating many of the leaders
04:45:26 <quintopia> what happens if a program clears through to anticipation's flag, starts attacking it, and then abandons the attack after a while and goes off to play defense? does anticipation avoid suiciding?
04:46:16 <ais523> (+)*32(-)*32 can never two-cycle-zero a flag that wasn't 0 to start with
04:46:30 <ais523> unless the program abandons at the exact right moment
04:46:51 <ais523> it /might/ suicide on the unrelated grounds of running off the right end during its clear, though
04:47:00 <ais523> if the opponent starts defending its flag (specifically)
04:47:46 <ais523> !bfjoust inisidious_2 <
04:47:49 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_inisidious_2: 0.0
04:47:51 <ais523> !bfjoust insidious2 >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[(<)*8(+)*50<(+)*50(>)*9([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300]>{}]>]>)%20)*21
04:47:54 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_insidious2: 31.8
04:48:31 <ais523> hmm, I wonder what happens if I put the insidious clear loop in counterpoke?
04:50:14 <ais523> !bfjoust counterpoke2 http://sprunge.us/HdeH
04:50:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_counterpoke2: 21.5
04:50:22 <ais523> !bfjoust counterpoke2 <
04:50:25 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_counterpoke2: 0.0
04:50:26 <ais523> thought that might happen
04:50:33 <ais523> different programs need different clear loops
04:50:49 <ais523> counterpoke wants a traditional-style one, I think
04:52:09 <ais523> I'm interested in what clever method david_werecat or quintopia come up with to beat counterpoke
04:54:29 <elliott> ais523: btw, what do you think of my idea to drop anything with negative points
04:54:34 <elliott> to reduce some of the silly hill effects
04:55:01 <ais523> elliott: then you'd lose half the programs with each iteration
04:55:20 <quintopia> ais523: the obvious counter to counterpoke is put a decoy near your flag before beginning a trail-free poke.
04:55:26 <ais523> or to put it another way, you need bad programs for the good programs to compare against to show that they're good
04:55:27 <zzo38> I made up a program to access the entire CP437 graphics by Linux
04:55:43 <ais523> quintopia: right, indeed
04:55:52 <ais523> zzo38: doesn't the Linux console do that by default, if you send it the right escape codes?
04:56:19 <zzo38> ais523: No, there are some it won't; and as far as I can see the default font does not even include all of them.
04:56:45 <zzo38> (Also, this is non-Unicode mode. Unicode mappings are still required, though, even if it is not Unicode)
04:57:12 <quintopia> elliott: i think the silly hill effects could be reduced by permanently freezing a short list of "champions" to stay on the hill forever, even if they suck. it would mean that good programs would *always* have to think about all the strategies out there to be good.
04:57:28 <elliott> quintopia: i strongly dislike that
04:57:31 <elliott> it messes with the metagame
04:57:39 <ais523> any previous winner, perhaps?
04:57:43 <ais523> but yes, I like the fluid metagame
04:57:52 <ais523> counterpoke is likely to get better over time just because people keep making pokes ;)
04:58:05 <quintopia> elliott: i thought the metagame was what you meant by "silly hill effects"
04:58:20 <elliott> well the silly hill effects are what messes with the metagame :P
04:58:26 <zzo38> The one I did it, works with VT100 graphics as well. When shift in, all the printable characters correspond to their CP437 character with that code. When shift out they differ, but the VT100 box-drawing graphics work as expected and others fill in for the codes that cannot normally be printed.
04:59:23 <quintopia> elliott: well, its not like the old standbys won't find their way back onto the hill anyway. people re-add the classics every so often just to see how they stack up against the new flock. so there's no point in *actually* freezing them there.
04:59:47 <zzo38> It includes a Unicode mapping file and a shell script. The shell script also turns off Unicode and sets the locale to C locale (although the environment variable cannot be set if run in a sub process)
04:59:58 <ais523> elliott: hmm, would you freeze something like vibration?
05:00:03 <ais523> it never /should/ do very well
05:00:06 <ais523> but sometimes it does anyway
05:00:26 <zzo38> ais523: Do you have Linux, if so, what distribution and what default fonts and console modes they use?
05:00:33 <elliott> I wouldn't freeze anything
05:00:36 <ais523> zzo38: I'm using Ubuntu Precise at the moment
05:00:46 <ais523> I'm not sure what the console fonts on the Linux console is
05:01:11 <ais523> I use DejaVu Sans Mono in the X terminal, but that's not the default any more
05:01:38 <zzo38> Does the console bell work?
05:02:06 <zzo38> How does it turn on?
05:02:50 <ais523> zzo38: I just turned on all the visible bell settings I could find
05:02:59 <ais523> presumably it'd work if you turned them all off
05:03:17 <zzo38> Why do you ask other people if you should sleep? Figure out by yourself! Look at clock, look on outside, know if you are tired, know if you are appointment, and figure out by yourself please
05:03:43 <ais523> elliott: are you appointment?
05:03:48 <zzo38> ais523: On the computers at FreeGeek I try the console bell it doesn't work
05:03:57 <elliott> ais523: that's a very philosophical question
05:04:03 <elliott> am i appointment? am i indeed.
05:04:19 <ais523> zzo38: I think the kernel module for it was disabled by default, because shutdown(8) causes a beep via the kernel, and they couldn't figure out how to stop it
05:04:38 <ais523> (which is ridiculous…)
05:04:54 <elliott> ais523: i'm not appointment no
05:05:04 <zzo38> I think the shutdown should beep by default, anyways
05:05:12 <ais523> elliott: do you have anything you want to achieve right now?
05:05:15 <elliott> i think computers should never beep
05:05:23 <elliott> except to notify me of irc pings
05:05:27 <ais523> do you have anything you want to achieve tomorrow?
05:05:48 <elliott> I always have things I want to achieve!
05:06:04 <ais523> do you think you're more likely to achieve them if you sleep first?
05:06:24 <elliott> probably, but sleeping is a lot of work
05:06:48 <ais523> do you find it easy to sleep, when you want to?
05:07:06 <ais523> also, slep at 6, wake at 14, is perfectly respectable
05:07:22 <elliott> instead of sleep i could watch awful iphone adverts
05:07:22 <elliott> http://www.apple.com/iphone/videos/#tv-ads-joke
05:07:26 <zzo38> Get a paper write down anything you dream about. And then, if you don't like it, cut off the parts you dislike
05:07:32 <elliott> (my browser opens to an apple.com start page because i'm too lazy to change it)
05:09:49 <ais523> elliott: heh, I manually set my homepage to about:blank
05:10:10 <zzo38> I also prefer it to be set to about:blank
05:10:17 <ais523> perhaps I'll set Chromium's to YouTube, as I don't use it for anything but heavily Flash-dependent or video-dependent websites
05:10:44 <elliott> hwn day and all my haskell answers get upvoted
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05:12:10 <zzo38> As far as I can tell, the default Linux console font is not based on CP437; it is Latin-1, Cyrillic, and VT100 box-drawing
05:14:13 <ais523> zzo38: not the default one
05:14:18 <ais523> there's one you can load using escape codes
05:15:20 <zzo38> Or at least, it is the one set in the computer at FreeGeek that I have used, which is this.
05:15:35 <zzo38> ESC ( U does not set the font, it only sets the translation table
05:21:50 <ais523> elliott: I think so, you may have more ideas about what else to do when you wake up
05:22:00 <ais523> and I often sleep around now
05:22:15 <ais523> and wake up at a reasonable time (i.e. early afternoon) and am refreshed
05:22:28 <elliott> i don't do the refreshed thing
05:22:32 <elliott> i do the waking up drowsy thing
05:22:49 <ais523> you're refreshed an hour or so /after/ you wake up
05:22:52 <ais523> you have to wake up gradually
05:22:56 <ais523> I can take hours to wake up sometimes
05:23:20 <quintopia> !bfjoust test http://sprunge.us/cTQH
05:23:22 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_test: 33.5
05:23:46 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_test: 0.0
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05:25:32 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_binary#DOS
05:25:36 <shachaf> An application for polyglots!
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05:28:48 <HackEgo> 830) <monqy> imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode. <monqy> that's what it's like for people who hit you
05:34:51 <shachaf> `run echo "quote monqy" > bin/quonqy; chmod +x bin/quonky
05:34:53 <HackEgo> chmod: cannot access `bin/quonky': No such file or directory
05:35:03 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
05:35:11 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ No \ WELCOME \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ google \ hatesgeo \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping \ prefixes \ qc \ quonqy \ quote \ quotes \ randomanonlog \ roll \ searchlog
05:35:26 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `bin/quonky': No such file or directory
05:36:06 <shachaf> I don't get what's going on, but I knew you would do that.
05:36:21 <shachaf> `run echo "quote shachaf" > bin/quachaf
05:36:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/quachaf: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/quachaf: cannot execute: Permission denied
05:36:58 <shachaf> `run bash -c 'echo "quote shachaf" > bin/quachaf; chmod +x bin/quachaf'
05:37:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quachaf: not found
05:37:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quachaf: not found
05:37:52 <shachaf> elliott thinks he can just do whatever he pleases.
05:38:07 <shachaf> Master of all he/she/it beholds
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07:04:30 <zzo38> Can a computer think? Can a submarine swim?
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07:38:05 <pikhq> http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12368.html *cough*assholes*cough*
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07:46:30 <Taneb> pikhq, Microsoft or Red Hat?
07:47:18 <Taneb> Gregor: annoying and ultimately pointless ping
07:48:37 <pikhq> Taneb: All of the above.
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08:05:54 <itidus21> i don't understand the issues involved but it can't end well
08:06:47 <itidus21> they should have done a kickstarter on this linux key thing :-D
08:07:36 <pikhq> itidus21: Basically, Microsoft is strongarming vendors into supporting kernel signature verification...
08:07:46 <pikhq> The issue is, this is a *huge* step towards non-general computing.
08:08:18 <pikhq> Much like the fucking iPod.
08:08:55 <itidus21> i have a simple view of reality that goes something like this.. once your sufficiently well tied up.. it doesn't make a difference if your enemy has a knife or a gun.. you're equally screwed
08:08:59 <pikhq> Although it'll apparently be trivial *now*, you'll have to *root your own damned PC* to use a kernel Microsoft's not signed on.
08:09:37 <itidus21> and in the same way, microsoft's capacity to strongarm vendors probably isn't going away for the forseeable future
08:10:03 * pikhq curses the US DoJ a bit for good measure
08:10:08 <itidus21> but it appears there is a positive feedback on microsofts capacity to strongarm.. since it is apparently getting better at it
08:10:27 <pikhq> "We find Microsoft to be an illegal monopoly! And fine them some pocket lint."
08:14:48 <fizzie> I think the bestest thing is that that while on x86 they went the "there must be a way for the user to add custom keys" route, possibly because of all the complaints, on ARM their requirements for "Windows 8 hardware" are the exact opposite: it must not be capable of running anything else than Windows in any way.
08:15:02 <pikhq> fizzie: Worse still.
08:15:16 <pikhq> Windows on ARM can't run anything but Microsoft-signed Metro programs.
08:15:31 <itidus21> maybe non-linux using people should just boycott windows 8
08:15:44 <pikhq> Or Microsoft-signed Win32 programs, but only Microsoft will make Microsoft-signed Win32 programs.
08:16:00 <pikhq> (did someone say "antitrust"? ... Oh, fuck, that doesn't matter, I'm going to drink myself into a stupor)
08:16:28 <pikhq> itidus21: Thankfully, Metro is a very poorly designed interface and they're trying to cram it in there, so I wouldn't be surprised to find Win8 flopping.
08:16:56 <itidus21> well i would like to think noone needs Win8
08:17:39 <atehwa> quintopia: wooooooo has somebody been trying out my redcode?-)
08:17:43 <pikhq> Microsoft's got much the same problem now they had with Vista. The previous version is good enough.
08:18:01 <itidus21> maybe one day apple will compete head to head against microsoft on the same hardware
08:18:12 <atehwa> quintopia: oh, I misremembered: not redcode warrior, but a bf one
08:19:12 <pikhq> itidus21: Would require more balls than they have, and Microsoft's non-general computers have removed the window for that.
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08:24:06 <itidus21> prepare for more nonsense.. this parody disclaimer brought to you by the good folks at schweppes australia!
08:26:34 <itidus21> bots know that servers need to stay online. virus-writers know that users need to return to the internet daily. companies know that customers need upgrades and updates.
08:27:04 <itidus21> in other words if people could be contented to stay offline and never upgrade or update their pc then there'd be no problems
08:28:16 <Taneb> Except that people would be offline
08:28:22 <itidus21> as someone once explained to me such things would be homeostasis, which isn't realistically possible or good
08:28:24 <Taneb> Which means my life would be a bit boring-er
08:28:51 <itidus21> you're right.. the benefits outweigh the costs
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09:31:50 <Taneb> pikhq, by the way, the weird consonant in my "eighths" is half-way between a g and a k, it seems
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10:03:07 <Taneb> My plan to buy a computer has gone slightly awry
10:05:18 <pikhq> My plan to go to sleep at a reasonable hour has gone completely off.
10:05:49 <Taneb> It works out as 8 pounds cheaper
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10:59:12 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so I'm thinking DF's new migrant system may need a little tweaking.
11:04:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I slaughtered 3 puppies so pikhq_ could make a dog bone crown.
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11:29:12 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yay, dead puppies everywhere
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12:05:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Made another pocket island, this time with 500 years of history and a few more civs.
12:08:17 <Taneb> Oh, toady and threetoe
12:11:25 <Phantom_Hoover> "The Singed War was waged by The Equal Desert on The Truthful Empire. One of the most significant causes of the conflict was a dispute over truthfulness."
12:11:43 <Taneb> The truthful empire sounds nice
12:12:25 <Taneb> Equal empire: "We should tell the truth and lie EQUALLY! You must die for telling the truth too much!"
12:13:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Also apparently one of the mainstays of The Equal Desert's army was giant ticks.
12:15:19 <Taneb> Tick as in the yes symbol or tick as in the parasite?
12:16:42 <Phantom_Hoover> They didn't get up to much in the 5th millennium, though, so maybe they lost to someone else.
12:17:08 <Taneb> I thought you said 500 years?
12:18:45 <Taneb> Maybe they thought there were doing too many things, so stopped in the name of equality
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12:20:36 <Phantom_Hoover> They got the crap kicked out of them by The Contingent Keys back in The Age of Dragon and Hill Titan.
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12:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> There are fully ten books titled "The Dwarf The Easy Way", along with commentary in the form of "Before The Dwarf The Easy Way" and "The Dwarf The Easy Way: Fact Or Fiction?".
12:39:00 <Taneb> I want to do the same but it keeps stopping at 30 years
12:39:58 <Phantom_Hoover> It's set to stop worldgen when 80% of the megabeasts are dead and 30 years have passed.
12:41:04 <Taneb> I normally don't really care for the history
12:41:09 <Taneb> I generally say 5 year history
12:41:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Probably not a good idea these days, since migrant skills are built up during worldgen.
12:43:14 <Taneb> This may take a while
12:43:22 <Taneb> You probably have a better computer than me
12:44:27 <Phantom_Hoover> TbH almost everything interesting happens in the first millennium.
12:46:33 <Taneb> Vax, the vacuumy people?
12:49:19 <Taneb> Seeing as it's now gone further than here has since the start of the Roman Kingdom
12:49:50 <Taneb> I may stop it at 3k
12:52:25 <Taneb> Old mainframe versus New Laptop!? Who will win!
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12:54:46 <Taneb> It's on "Twilight Age"
12:54:54 <Taneb> Has been for about 2 millenia
12:56:00 <Taneb> Apparently it's when everyone sucks
12:56:03 <Phantom_Hoover> The two I tried ended up in Golden Age and Age of the Dwarf.
12:56:37 <Taneb> The population is shrinking
12:57:35 <Taneb> It's about 1900 and seems roughly stable
12:59:49 <Taneb> It's just switched to the Second Twilight Age
13:00:14 <Taneb> It's switching between fairy tales and twilight
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13:01:32 <Taneb> "The Thirteenth Age of Fairy Tales"
13:02:19 <Phantom_Hoover> ISTR that that indicates near-total dominance by a single race, possibly humans.
13:02:33 <Taneb> I thought it was very few mythological creatures
13:02:48 <Taneb> And what does ISTR stand for again?
13:03:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway it can't mean megabeasts, because the megabeasts die almost instantly on a pocket world.
13:03:21 -!- nvt has joined.
13:03:37 <Taneb> 90%+ mundane creatures, but fantasy creatures are still about
13:04:37 <Taneb> The example given is "human"
13:05:29 <Taneb> Got over a million events
13:06:14 <Taneb> It's stuck at fairy tales now
13:10:43 <Taneb> Wow, there was a golden age and I missed it
13:10:50 <Taneb> It's sorting the legends
13:13:02 <Taneb> The big dwarf place got attacked by a monster's wife
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13:53:05 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover, there's a video on YouTube of a goblin invasion set to that song
14:02:31 <Taneb> I've narrowed elliott's location down to two rough areas
14:02:46 <Taneb> Unfortunately, these amount to "Hexham" and "Outside of Hexham"
14:05:31 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/a3bbb144/save.php?hash=adb838876e2902dbcf20f7ebd96e4408
14:05:31 <lambdabot> david_werecat: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:05:34 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.9
14:06:36 <Taneb> I just convinced myself the topic had the word "internatio:)nal"
14:08:55 -!- Taneb has set topic: It is 2005 and there is time to be the internatio:)nal hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment. http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
14:10:07 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/1328e20a/save.php?hash=cb611bb2a4eb7886b9284a83efd79878
14:10:11 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.9
14:10:55 <quintopia> david_werecat: as i made them, ais worked to conter them. that was fun.
14:11:04 <Gregor> `pastelogs <[E]goBot> Score for .*: 7[0-9]
14:11:48 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yay!
14:11:52 <david_werecat> That does sound fun. I see that the new antipoke program beats dreadnought.
14:12:06 <Gregor> quintopia: Yes yes, it's broken, too bad, I don't have time to fix it right now.
14:12:32 <Gregor> quintopia: Whatever you were saying was broken last night.
14:12:49 * Gregor is confused by that pastelogs giving no output...
14:13:30 <Gregor> `pastelogs [>] Score for .*: [7-9][0-9]
14:13:41 <quintopia> david_werecat: it could be modified to beat any poke program that leaves trails as it pokes
14:13:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6962
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14:16:53 <david_werecat> I see why it wins. It leaves decoys that are too large for dreadnought to handle.
14:17:48 <quintopia> more than that...it always leaves them where you will encounter them
14:18:34 <david_werecat> Ah, so that's why it beats dreadnought but not juggernaut
14:21:39 <ais523> are you discussing counterpoke?
14:22:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, the Ages of Goblins are broken up by brief Golden Ages.
14:22:15 <ais523> I think it's reasonably comprehensive at beating "anything even vaguely similar to dreadnaught"
14:22:28 <ais523> this includes my slowpoke and Gregor's ffspg as well as dreadnaught
14:23:21 <david_werecat> Seems that way. I could theoretically beat it by making several bigger decoys, but that would take dreadnought out of first place.
14:24:47 <ais523> I'm not convinced making several bigger decoys /would/ beat it, unless you were careful about how you made them
14:25:07 <Phantom_Hoover> The elves were wiped out in the first millennium, though.
14:26:02 <david_werecat> Building 8 size 70 decoys might beat counterpoke, since it would slow it down by a lot.
14:26:45 <ais523> if you're building 8 size 70 decoys, on tapes longer than 18 or so it's going to build more than 8
14:26:51 <ais523> /and/ skip several of them
14:27:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Also AFAICT one goblin civ kidnapped tens of dorf children a year.
14:27:34 <david_werecat> Hm. That's now been made apparent looking at the animations.
14:28:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Then I will put a convenient bin full of masterwork adamantine arms and armour behind a locked door, build a self-operating danger room, start an adventurer and cut every single goblin to pieces.
14:29:06 <david_werecat> Though I guess the question now is, can that be made into a new #1 program?
14:29:48 <ais523> it's beating a lot of things, but still quite a way down the leaderboard
14:29:48 <quintopia> only if people keep making pokes that do well :P
14:30:08 <ais523> I modified the second half of the program to do decently against rush too
14:30:31 <ais523> it struggles against weirder tactics, although it confuses most of my defence stuff quite adequately because my defence stuff's never seen anything quite like it before
14:30:59 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yesssss
14:31:15 <david_werecat> I'm surprised it's not higher on the chart, given the number of wins it has.
14:31:45 <ais523> it could be that a lot of them are quite close
14:32:04 <ais523> it got a perfect 42 against quintopia's modification of your program (because it was supposed to :P), but most of its wins aren't so dramatic
14:33:25 <david_werecat> Right now it's got a 38 against dreadnought, it seems to lose on tapes of length 30.
14:33:49 <ais523> that's probably because it's incorrectly detecting rush rather than poke
14:34:00 <ais523> on the basis that the poke's taking an awfully long time to detect
14:34:11 <ais523> fixing that'd make it worse against all the rush programs, so I think this is a decent tradeoff
14:35:57 <Gregor> lol, I love how ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys is still top 10
14:36:14 <ais523> four is a very popular value :)
14:36:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Another goblin civ has meanwhile declared war on the collective wildlife of the south.
14:37:15 <david_werecat> I almost made a program a while ago that exploited the fact that most programs leave even numbers.
14:37:35 <ais523> I love exploiting patterns like that
14:38:06 <ais523> there was the whole turtle phenomenon (which has now mostly died down, to the extent that I don't even bother counter-turtling any more in rush programs)
14:38:32 <Taneb> This is like Pokmon all over again
14:38:47 <Taneb> Rush is not very effective on turtle
14:38:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm getting the sense that there are no actual goblins running the goblin civs these days.
14:38:52 <ais523> david_werecat: how far?
14:39:05 <ais523> a reasonable turtle will be able to beat small tweaks in the flag value
14:39:07 <ais523> 3 is probably not enough
14:39:14 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, reavers!
14:39:41 <david_werecat> I also used 3 because it again leaves another odd number.
14:40:22 <david_werecat> Actually, I'll check to see what happens when I change that to 5.
14:40:36 <ais523> it'll slow down the program for no meaningful benefit, I imagine
14:40:45 <ais523> I typically use ranges of 8 or 16 either way when turtling
14:40:56 <quintopia> ais523: counterpoke could do better if it dinged its own flag more. careless clear owns it
14:41:10 <ais523> quintopia: yes, I probably should
14:41:21 <ais523> it wouldn't cost much to adjust it by even 30 or 40 or so
14:41:40 * ais523 tries to remember what a philip is
14:42:10 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/897bccf7/save.php?hash=9ba085da526b684aa1046e0e418f7256
14:42:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Looking at lists of historical figures shows no goblins at all at the end.
14:42:14 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.3
14:42:37 <Phantom_Hoover> So I'm getting the sense that the Ages of Goblins largely took place after goblins became extinct.
14:42:39 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, so... the goblins died out, but their civilization was mainly human?
14:42:51 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/1328e20a/save.php?hash=cb611bb2a4eb7886b9284a83efd79878
14:42:54 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.9
14:43:05 <ais523> loses only to counterpoke and waterfall2
14:43:24 <ais523> the slaves eventually outnumbered their masters and took over
14:43:55 <ais523> that waterfall2 loss is probably coincidental and fixable with constant tweaking
14:44:36 <ais523> and again, doesn't legitimately beat anticipation, which I really need to find a better way to compress
14:45:04 <david_werecat> Actually, I haven't done much tweaking with dreadnought. Maybe I should...
14:45:26 <ais523> the waterfall series is in general very sensitive to tweaking everywhere
14:45:27 <david_werecat> I'm just not sure how without reposting it a few thousand times.
14:45:32 <ais523> I even wrote a genetic tweaker to help improve it
14:46:03 <Phantom_Hoover> So yeah, filtering for 'Snodub', a goblin name, shows no goblins at all after the first century.
14:46:12 <ais523> you can grab the hill via hg, and use an offline client to do calculations
14:47:32 <david_werecat> Although, writing a custom offline client sounds fun
14:47:51 <ais523> I wrote one because the others were too slow or unreliable
14:48:39 <ais523> and combined it with some scripts, and now it has a whole load of features telling you things like what's changed in terms of what you beat from last time you ran it, and its loss reasons broken down by type, program, length and polarity
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14:48:59 <ais523> (incidentally, according to elliott, the polarities are called "sieve" and "kettle")
14:49:51 <ais523> I think so; it doesn't work on some of the things on the hill, I can't remember whether that's notation differences or something else, it's been a while
14:50:01 <ais523> there are cornercases in whitespace, etc., that interps disagree on
14:51:03 <david_werecat> I also noticed that different interpreters expand programs differently.
14:51:22 <ais523> the best interpreters don't expand them at all, they run the expansions "mentally" to save memory
14:51:35 <ais523> http://sprunge.us/RbWF
14:51:43 <ais523> (runprog.sh, and juiced.c)
14:52:37 <ais523> it even seems to use a sane indentation style
14:52:47 <ais523> I must not have been in a trollish mood when I wrote it
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14:54:28 <david_werecat> One thing that I found odd about the current interpreter on the hill is that it won't accept something like ([+)*3(-)*4([-)2(])*5
14:55:02 <quintopia> if you want to do that sort of thing, use ({})%
14:55:28 <ais523> yep, (a{b}c)%d is equivalent to (a)*db(c)*d
14:55:45 <ais523> except that it allows open brackets in part a to be matched by close brackets in part c
14:55:56 <ais523> these rules are to make it possible to execute even large programs efficiently
14:56:03 <Gregor> s/efficiently/without expansion/
14:56:12 <ais523> expanding would be inefficient
14:56:22 <Gregor> Yes, but there are lots of other inefficiencies in the world ;)
14:56:45 <quintopia> we are amking it possible to execute them efficiently
14:56:52 <david_werecat> Without expanding, the interpreter could store brace jumppoints in a stack rather than explicitly checking them.
14:57:14 <david_werecat> Checking could be a single pass over the program at the start.
14:57:38 <Gregor> !bfjoust nonsense >([ [+++[(-[{>>>>[[-]>]}])%5]] ]+>)*21
14:57:41 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_nonsense: 3.2
14:58:00 <ais523> Gregor: what was that about?
14:58:06 <ais523> it looks sort-of like a serious program
14:58:10 <ais523> but on closer inspection it can't be
14:58:26 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I thought there weren't any goblins
14:58:45 <Gregor> ais523: It's beats dreadnaught by a narrow margin, and nothing else ;)
14:58:58 <ais523> that's what the >>>> is for
14:59:04 <ais523> I remember doing that in insidious at one point
14:59:13 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, there apparently are, they're just a tiny minority.
14:59:44 <Phantom_Hoover> And *that* goblin was a slave of a human civ (as in human-human, not 'goblin'-human) who settled in a tomb for some reason.
15:00:32 <ais523> david_werecat: I was rushing off dreadnaught-beaters really frequently earlier to needle quintopia
15:01:04 <ais523> insidious was added, and undermine re-added, to beat his beats-everything tweaks to your programs via methods he hadn't thought of
15:01:35 <ais523> undermine is trivially easy to beat if you know how it works, incidentally
15:01:54 <david_werecat> note: the current insidious loses against dreadnought
15:01:57 <ais523> although things that beat undermine tend to lose to counterpoke, so there's a nice pincer movement going on there
15:02:18 <ais523> it's too easy to beat insidious by changing your decoy setup just a bit, and rather hard to compensate
15:02:30 <ais523> I'm not very good at needling people
15:03:02 <quintopia> ais523: fizzie_evo4 beats counterpoke on short tapes. that must be embarassing! (flag-dinging would take care of that)
15:03:33 <ais523> it uses hyper-rush on short tapes because there's no room for decoys and even if they were they'd be skipped by rule of 9
15:03:38 <ais523> but I didn't put a counter-vibration on it
15:03:42 <ais523> probably I should have done
15:04:03 <ais523> counterpoke is still far from optimised, it still uses a mindbogglingly standard offset clear, for instance
15:04:32 <ais523> (and to think, there were days of BF Joust programming where people didn't know about offset clears yet because they hadn't been invented)
15:04:42 <quintopia> yeah i noticed that the tape lengths where collision beats it are those where rule of 9 skips its carefully placed decoys
15:05:23 <david_werecat> Hmmm... I wonder how counterpoke would do with a juggernaut attack?
15:05:39 <ais523> david_werecat: I tried an insidious attack but it made it way worse
15:06:18 <ais523> I imagine an extreme juggernaught attack would also hurt; it's either set so many decoys that its clear speed doesn't really matter, or it's in a race where the opponent hasn't had much of a chance to set decoys
15:06:25 <Sgeo__> http://www.jimblyworlds.com/movies/promo.asf
15:06:32 <ais523> which implies a simple clear loop would be better
15:07:07 <ais523> nonetheless, I should do something like [-[-]][-[-]]> to make sure (which is guaranteed both vibration-proof and triplock-proof, although not immune to regular locks)
15:07:36 <ais523> well, proof against losing to vibration, it can still draw
15:07:48 <ais523> it also needs a timer clear to beat anticipations and regular locks
15:07:56 <ais523> but heavy counterdefence isn't what I'm focusing on atm
15:07:57 <quintopia> ais523: idea: place the first large decoy to the point where you back-off and then the second by the flag for tapes shorter than 20
15:08:10 <ais523> especially as I'm pretty much the only person who writes defence programs good enough to stick around on the hill anyway
15:08:11 <david_werecat> !bfjoust counterpoke_juggernaut http://tinypaste.com/929dd6d4/save.php?hash=5def4fb0ec698c0c9124f023b2d52e51
15:08:14 <quintopia> that would give rule of 9 skips something to hang up on
15:08:14 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_counterpoke_juggernaut: 36.5
15:08:28 <ais523> quintopia: wouldn't work unless they set a lot of decoys
15:08:34 <ais523> in which case, they'd outrace us even with the decoy near the flag
15:09:05 <ais523> quintopia: if they don't set a lot of decoys, they reach the flag before we set the flag decoy
15:09:12 <ais523> because any reasonable program can quickly clear a chain of 2s
15:09:29 <Gregor> !bfjoust lunatic (>)*9(+)*127(<(-)*127<(+)*127)*4(>)*8(>(+)*24[-])*21
15:09:30 <ais523> if they do set a lot of decoys, their lots are going to hold us up longer than our one
15:09:31 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_lunatic: 15.4
15:09:33 <quintopia> there are several unreasonable programs :P
15:09:47 <Gregor> OK, I'm done writing things just to narrowly beat juggernaut ;)
15:10:07 <ais523> narrowly beating the top program is fun
15:10:11 <ais523> not as fun when they do it to you
15:10:43 <ais523> although I remember when waterfall3 had 100% win rate, elliott made it all-wins-but-1-which-is-a-draw by submitting /the exact same program/, and I tweaked a constant to beat it to
15:10:45 <quintopia> watch counterpoke vs. jix_wiggle3 or collision
15:10:45 <quintopia> it seems like it might somethimes help there
15:11:07 <ais523> I can't remember how collision works any more
15:12:51 <ais523> it seems it helps against myndzi, and against weird stuff
15:12:56 <ais523> and hurts against ffspg
15:13:04 <ais523> not beating ffspg is close to unforgivable for a counterpoke :)
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15:13:54 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_counterpoke_juggernaut: 0.0
15:17:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Heh, the XML dump for the legends is larger than Emacs' maximum buffer size.
15:23:48 -!- david_werecat has quit (Quit: Page closed).
15:25:43 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: how big is it?
15:26:40 <Taneb> Lumpio-, the LEGENDS OF ROCK
15:27:00 <Phantom_Hoover> With the smallest built-in size and the largest possible history.
15:27:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I did so so I can faff around trying to work things out more easily.
15:28:37 * Phantom_Hoover realises he doesn't know the standard command for "display lines n to m".
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15:30:15 -!- MoALTz has joined.
15:30:53 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: standard command in unix shell or in some text editor?
15:31:15 <Taneb> The closses I can get a fortress name to someone in this channel is "oklinfok sh"
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15:36:16 <Taneb> I'm making a world to /play/, dammit
15:39:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I did that, except I got scared off for a bit when I got slammed with two massive migrant waves which threw off a lot of my plans, and then a human arrived with an FB-style announcement.
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15:40:54 <Taneb> FB-style? You have 1 new friend request, elliott hird has asked you to help with his farm on FarmVille?
15:42:48 <Gregor> You have been invited to the group I'll Bet a Goblin Horde can get More Likes than Dwarves
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16:06:18 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
16:06:29 <Gregor> I present, for your reading pleasure, a quote by the least eloquent man imaginable:
16:06:31 <Gregor> "It was not only grotesque, it was just very sad, the amount of blood," Sgt. Javier Ortiz, vice president of the Miami Fraternal Order of Police, told the Associated Press. "It was very sad to see what happened to this gentleman that had his face eaten."
16:06:47 -!- aloril has joined.
16:08:45 <quintopia> Gregor: oh god. whatever happened to picking the best talker for press conferences?
16:09:33 <Gregor> I think this guy's speaking style is more grotesque than the crime ^^'
16:09:43 <Gregor> (OK, that was an awful thing to say X-D)
16:11:21 <Taneb> The gamble of starting on an aquifer hasn't paid off
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16:28:57 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZTE4dw yay, I broke it
16:33:54 <olsner> was that a picture of a cached copy of an error message?
16:34:38 <elliott> olsner: I have no idea why it cached the error :P
16:38:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have you realised that you're not a ?
16:38:41 <nortti> http://sourceforge.net/projects/grepgui/
16:39:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Did you read about the epic history of Teyo Alino, The World of Dawning?
16:40:55 <elliott> `addquote <itidus21> i have a simple view of reality that goes something like this.. once your sufficiently well tied up.. it doesn't make a difference if your enemy has a knife or a gun.. you're equally screwed
16:40:58 <Taneb> THE WORLD... OF DAWNING
16:40:58 <HackEgo> 843) <itidus21> i have a simple view of reality that goes something like this.. once your sufficiently well tied up.. it doesn't make a difference if your enemy has a knife or a gun.. you're equally screwed
16:41:36 <HackEgo> 120) <alise> cmake is a nuclear powered waffle iron powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment <alise> and it burns one of the waffles and doesn't touch the other.
16:41:36 <HackEgo> 281) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: if the list is in random order, like poor ehird here
16:41:38 <HackEgo> 654) <Sgeo|web> ...Overlapping?
16:41:46 <HackEgo> 715) <tswett> Hey, I found Gregor on Spokeo. He's a married black male in his late 50s who lives in an apartment worth about $37,000. He did not go to college and works in sales. <tswett> He lives in Detroit. <tswett> I... think we might have found the wrong one.
16:41:47 <HackEgo> 397) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary <ais523_> so far, it has found four digits <ais523_> I hope it will find the fifth some time this week
16:41:51 <HackEgo> *poof* <Sgeo|web> ...Overlapping?
16:43:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it's a really tiny DF world I generated with history set to 10,000 years.
16:43:25 <fizzie`> <elliott> `log Sgeo <HackEgo> 2011-10-14.txt:06:38:16: <Sgeo|web> ...Overlapping? <Phantom_Hoover> `addquote <Sgeo|web> ...Overlapping?
16:43:49 -!- fizzie` has changed nick to fizzie.
16:43:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: With the >1k year war?
16:44:15 <Phantom_Hoover> The gist of it is that nearly 9600 of those years were spent in five different "Ages of Goblins", in spite of the fact that goblins became a tiny minority by the 3rd century.
16:44:37 <Phantom_Hoover> The goblin civs are composed almost entirely of the descendents of abducted humans and dorfs.
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16:45:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You *must* start a fortress.
16:45:17 <elliott> Think of the goblin invasions.
16:45:47 <Phantom_Hoover> (The elves, near as I can tell, were almost totally eradicated.)
16:46:37 <elliott> OK, seriously, we need a new featured language.
16:46:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I haven't really checked the wars that much because there's so much goddam history.
16:47:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Which language should I feature we seriously need a new one.
16:48:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, anyway Taneb started generating a 5000 year pocket world and it got up to the 14th Age of Fairytales before DF crashed on him.
16:49:59 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it crashed when I was reading the legends
16:50:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, oh also I dumped the history as XML and the file was 3.5GB.
16:51:01 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, how do you dump it as XML?
16:51:55 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:55:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, also there's a 9700 year old goblin who was made a slave by the humans but was later freed and settled down in a tomb.
16:56:27 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
17:05:19 <elliott> http://www.humblebundle.com/ Again???????
17:05:27 <elliott> Ooh, roman numerals. Classy.
17:05:39 <elliott> Hey it has Psychonauts. It's that game I've never played.
17:05:42 <elliott> I bet shachaf will tell me to buy it.
17:05:55 <elliott> I haven't played Bastion either. Maybe I should buy this thing.
17:05:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Should I buy this thing?
17:06:10 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:06:20 <elliott> Haha, you can get on the top contributors list by paying $20 right now
17:06:40 <elliott> Buy "irc.freenode.net #esoteric" for $50 before it's too late.
17:07:09 <Taneb> I'm not buying it, the only game there I want to play I've got on steam and doesn't like my video card
17:07:11 <pikhq_> elliott: It's Psychonauts. Worth playing so much.
17:07:16 <Gregor> Why would we want people to come here >_>
17:07:23 <Taneb> Also, I just spent a lot of money
17:07:27 <elliott> Gregor: It would be SO MUCH FUN.
17:07:44 -!- Gregor has set topic: It is 2005 and there is time to be the internati-anal hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment. http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:07:55 -!- elliott has set topic: pOJNFSERIYU90J64IOKTRD http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:08:17 -!- Gregor has set topic: Topic redacted http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:08:18 <elliott> Humble Indie Bundle V work
17:08:18 <elliott> on Mac, Windows, and Linux.
17:08:23 <elliott> Psychonauts was ported to Linux?????
17:08:51 <Taneb> elliott: I vote deadfish to be the featured language
17:09:02 <elliott> Taneb: The article... sort of needs a slight cleanup.
17:09:19 <Taneb> I... don't want to be the one who does that
17:09:30 <elliott> TOO LATE YOU JUST VOLUNTEERED
17:11:26 <pikhq_> elliott: Apparently it was ported.
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17:14:57 <Taneb> elliott, is that acceptable!?
17:15:47 <elliott> Taneb: No, since you actually made it factually incorrect.
17:15:57 <shachaf> elliott: HumbleBundle has Psychonauts?!
17:15:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:16:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I said.
17:16:07 <shachaf> elliott: You should buy it!
17:16:31 <elliott> Well it also has Amnesia: The Dark Descent and I might be tempted to play it?
17:17:02 <elliott> Taneb: Deadfish can deal with >8-bit values.
17:17:14 <Taneb> elliott, not until you square it!
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17:24:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so OK I'm thinking we should do a succession fortress on that 'goblin' world, except then after a while we make loads of masterwork adamantine weapons and armour, build a self-operating danger room and then abandon it, return in Adventure Mode and emerge as the figurehead of goblin^Wbrainwashed human/dwarf death.
17:25:01 <elliott> I'm not playing Adventure Mode.
17:25:14 <elliott> It is the least fun thnig.
17:25:18 <Taneb> zzo38, what does Prelude.Generalize.(<>>=) do
17:28:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK so I don't know how to float.
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17:29:29 <shachaf> elliott: They even have Linux/OS X ports of Psychonauts!
17:29:37 <zzo38> Taneb: Like >>= but the result values are ignored and it uses the other one instead.
17:29:52 <elliott> shachaf: Yes, I noted that too.
17:29:59 <elliott> Hmm, Bastion ported to Linux? But it's XNA, isn't it?
17:30:26 <Taneb> zzo38, because I am bored and writing documentation
17:30:50 <Taneb> I am writing elliott
17:30:54 <Taneb> elliott elliott elliott
17:30:59 <Taneb> It's fun, everyone should try it
17:31:11 <zzo38> For example getLine <>>= putStrLn will result the input even though it is also copied to the output as well, and (<>>= guard . f) is like filter f
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17:32:24 <zzo38> Taneb: If you write a document for Prelude.Generalize then show me what you have, or even just upload a version including the documentation as long as you make no other changes at all to the program
17:32:35 <Taneb> I've just done bool so far
17:34:26 <Taneb> Could someone explain Alternative's some and many?
17:34:31 <Taneb> I don't see what they do at all
17:34:53 <zzo38> Alternative's some and many can be used with parsers
17:36:05 <zzo38> If <|> means the right side is used if the left side failed, then many means try multiple times until they fail and collect the results.
17:36:15 <zzo38> And, some is similar but at least one.
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17:43:42 <fizzie> All of Bastion, Amnesia: The Dark Descent, Psychonauts and LIMBO have been so very much recommended, and I haven't any of them. Oh no.
17:43:44 <elliott> fizzie: It has Bastonauts! And Psychion.
17:44:24 <shachaf> fizzie: It's the game to play.
17:45:52 <fizzie> And I've seen people play LIMBO and it looked nice. And of course Bastion, based on Steam's "community" stuff my wife's brother has been playing it a whole lot.
17:46:04 <Taneb> zzo38, why does (!!!) need Alternative? Surely Applicative would do?
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17:57:19 <Taneb> zzo38, what does fair do?
18:06:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:08:10 <shachaf> elliott: Remember that Reddit thread with return . f . unsafePerformIO?
18:08:31 <Taneb> It's returned with a vengeance
18:09:37 -!- monqy has joined.
18:11:23 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 7 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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18:16:46 <Taneb> @tell Ngevd heheheh
18:16:50 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
18:17:04 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
18:17:24 <boily> @tell elliott bonjour!
18:17:30 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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18:28:39 <fizzie> Taneb: There is no zzo38. (At least not at this moment.)
18:28:54 <Taneb> This is why tab-completion is a good idea
18:29:00 <Taneb> @ask zzo38 What does fair do?
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19:16:47 <quintopia> what is the length limit on egobot's bfj programs
19:18:58 <Taneb> I don't think there is one
19:19:10 <elliott> quintopia: big, but not infinite
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19:31:59 <olsner> omg, the CANNIBAL DRUG has reached sweden
19:32:19 <olsner> it's worse than DEATHDRUGS
19:32:21 <monqy> whats canniabl drug
19:34:33 <nortti_> drug that eats other drugs?
19:35:33 -!- Gregor has set topic: It was very sad to see what happened to this gentleman that had his face eaten. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:36:53 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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19:38:01 -!- Taneb has set topic: DISCUSS ESOLANGS OR ELSE | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:38:26 <oerjan> else is such a lovely keyword, isn't it
19:39:41 <nortti_> why I am suddenly remined of KieliX, line number basic with keywords in finnish
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19:41:10 <elliott> There's no contradiction. There are 3.5 billion women on Earth and 3.5 billion men and still it's sometimes hard to find a date ;-) What we need is a Haskell dating service.
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19:42:42 <oerjan> "Are you lazy, yet still functional? Try the Haskell dating service!"
19:44:02 <fizzie> oerjan: Just look at those enormous monads.
19:45:19 <olsner> ... and then the monad transformer spam
19:45:42 <Taneb> If you remove the Monad requirement for MonadPlus's, you end up with something slightly less useful than a Monoid
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19:47:52 <elliott> You end up with exactly a Monoid, don't you? Just lifted a kind higher for some reason.
19:48:09 <Taneb> It's a Monoid, with some broken instances
19:48:33 <elliott> Oh, right, the laws are all messed up.
19:48:43 <elliott> Taneb: Are you buying the Bumble Hundle?
19:48:54 <Taneb> Nah, spending money on other things atm
19:49:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hey figure out when the statistical best time to buy the Bundle is to make the average the lowest so that I can get Bastion for the lowest price.
19:49:18 <Taneb> elliott, as soon as possible
19:49:31 <elliott> Taneb: Are you sure? I figure early adopters pay more.
19:49:38 <elliott> As time goes on the cheapskates will pick it up and the average will go down.
19:49:41 <Taneb> People have a reason to pay above the average, so the average keeps rising
19:49:52 <elliott> That's true. But a lot of people already own Bastion.
19:50:03 <Taneb> I already own Amnesia
19:50:09 <Taneb> I paid for it TWICE
19:50:11 <Taneb> Neither time worked
19:51:15 <Taneb> But I've never heard of Bastion, what is Bastion
19:51:31 <fizzie> The average's gone up from $6.68 to $7.20 in the last... two hours or so.
19:51:44 -!- Gregor has set topic: DISCUSS THIS GENTLEMAN THAT HAD HIS FACE EATEN OR ELSE | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:51:44 <Taneb> elliott, buy before it is too late!
19:52:24 <elliott> I don't think it's possible for the average to rise above what I'm willing to pay for it.
19:52:29 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:52:47 <Taneb> What are you willing to pay for it?
19:53:28 <quintopia> even though i already own psychonauts on steam...
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19:56:35 -!- boily has set topic: DISCUSS EUCALYPTUS TREES AND OR MAYBE LIKE SO TOTALLY | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:56:47 <boily> I'm ruining myself on all those bundles...
19:57:37 <elliott> I've bought N bundles and played 0 bundle games.
19:58:44 <Taneb> I quite enjoyed Machinarium
20:01:36 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:04:02 <fizzie> I've bought five bundles now; been skipping them, lately.
20:06:18 <elliott> I skipped the Botanica thing because it looked rubbish.
20:06:32 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:06:32 <elliott> (That wasn't actually Android exclusive, bizarrely.)
20:07:13 <boily> my friend convinced me to try out osmos.
20:07:20 <nortti_> I have this friend who wants to be referred gomrade Osku who apways buys one of these bundles for 10€ or more and then proceeds to download them using bittorrent
20:07:39 <boily> osmos is stressful!
20:08:19 <elliott> boily: I remember that one. I think.
20:08:47 <boily> elliott: it's like a 2D katamari with weird abstract colourful circles.
20:09:28 <boily> very nice and immersive, all with the soothing soundtrack.
20:09:46 <elliott> Doesn't sound stressful :P
20:11:36 <shachaf> I played Machinarium from the bundle!
20:11:54 <boily> elliott: it is. you just don't know you are stressed until you stop playing.
20:11:54 <shachaf> elliott: "play machinarium"
20:12:11 <elliott> boily: hehe, I think that applies to a lot of games
20:14:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:17:43 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/dfworldgen/comments/thn00/working_on_generating_a_10000year_massive_world/c4okccr
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20:18:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also terrible at assembling a stable computer, apparently.
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20:39:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Also elliott re that Psychonauts Linux port, I've heard that Team Meat made really shitty Linux ports so they could get into the HIB and never updated them again.
20:39:29 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
20:39:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes but come on, it's Double Fine.
20:39:44 <elliott> There is *trust* in my heart.
20:40:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (It's sad that people are exploiting the Humble Bundle's wonderful cross-platform initiative like that.)
20:41:14 <elliott> I mean, they're practically single-handedly dominating the Linux games market by requiring ports.
20:43:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Tim_Schafer_2011.jpg Doesn't this look like a guy you can trust to make a good Linux port?
20:44:12 <elliott> Apparently Ron Gilbert uses emacs.
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20:48:06 <monqy> tf2 pay what you want
20:56:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What's indie?
21:00:30 -!- nortti_ has joined.
21:02:43 <monqy> http://store.steampowered.com/sub/14499/
21:04:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, you never realised what was indie?
21:07:44 <nortti_> indie is work done independed of big bad corporations like Touhou Project
21:08:25 <nortti_> erm. Touhou Project is indie work, not corporation
21:09:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, even better, it was 2 steps from an armed marksdorf.
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21:17:24 <itidus20> so the term indie seems ill-defined at best
21:19:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Double Fine has 65 employees.
21:19:57 <elliott> They might not be indie, but they're hardly "mainstream".
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21:23:37 <itidus20> I have had negative, yet enduring, opinions about X since day one.
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21:47:16 <itidus20> if an individual develops a game on their own time, unrelated to any company they are a part of, and if that individual owns all the associated intellectual property, then i imagine that at that point it's an indie game
21:47:34 <itidus20> "unrelated to" probably isn't formal enough
21:50:01 <itidus20> if you have no ties to any companies then it must be indie
21:50:40 <quintopia> indie just means you receive no funds from nintendo, sony, ms, or EA
21:50:58 <itidus20> because thats the publishing side of things
21:51:13 <quintopia> you are independent of major publishers
21:51:18 <itidus20> is the same game indie or non-indie based on who publishes it?
21:52:12 <quintopia> they feel indie, but are very big and have steam
21:52:59 <itidus20> i suppose a game can be indie if it gets re-published by a major publisher after it has already been published
21:53:30 <quintopia> yeah but then it has totally sold out
21:55:29 <itidus20> ok so at this point we see that companies have all started bringing in an appstore of one kind or another
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21:56:23 <itidus20> in the case of xbox the restriction is you have to make it run in dot net..
21:57:11 <itidus20> BlueProtoman: well i'm specficially speaking of XBLIG .. i.. better double check
21:59:02 <elliott> happy australian mailman mailing lists reminder day
21:59:24 <itidus20> well they have to use XNA. and XNA requires dot net
22:02:25 <itidus20> on another note "iPhone applications, like Mac OS X, are written in Objective-C,[3] with some elements of an application able to be written in C or C++."
22:03:40 <itidus20> BlueProtoman: i dunno man.. the actual limits seem quite complicated
22:04:20 <fizzie> Apple is probably the cause of most Objective-C code by now.
22:04:57 <fizzie> At least it's (AFAIK) actually a C superset, unlike C++.
22:05:41 <elliott> BlueProtoman: Well, nothing's worse than C++.
22:05:45 <elliott> Okay, apart from the things that are worse than C++.
22:05:47 <shachaf> Objective C is a superset of C because they made the syntax so weird that no sane C compile would be able to compile it.
22:05:52 <itidus20> wiki says "After Steve Jobs left Apple Inc., he started the company NeXT. In 1988, NeXT licensed Objective-C from StepStone"
22:06:12 <elliott> It is 2012 and people saying "wiki" for "Wikipedia" still bugs me. :(
22:06:43 <itidus20> i wasn't referring to the esolang wiki
22:06:52 <shachaf> elliott: Wikipedia is the first website that anyone can edit.
22:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, I've just realised that there are a lot more married dorfs.
22:09:37 <BlueProtoman> Would you happen to have an idea about why I still can't get loops to work? I've stepped through my code by hand, inserted debugging statements, etc. and I still don't know what the hell is going on. I'm not using any weird gcc-specific or low-level tricks. http://ideone.com/tMRpf
22:09:58 <BlueProtoman> (This is for a Brainfuck interpreter, for those who just joined in on my saga)
22:10:47 <elliott> I assign... fizzie to the case.
22:11:10 <shachaf> I assign elliott to assigning people to cases.
22:12:26 <itidus20> fizzie and oerjan working on the same case... this sounds like a buddy cop movie
22:12:51 <BlueProtoman> I'm trying in particular to run a program that prints factorials infinitely. I know it works because it runs fine on IDEone.
22:13:49 <fizzie> I'm asleep, it's not a good idea to assign me.
22:14:31 <itidus20> i'm pondering whether app store games are indie
22:16:01 <BlueProtoman> I would say most are, you'd really have to look at the company itself to make the distinction.
22:16:24 <BlueProtoman> For instance, the (really, really shitty) Android port of Contra 4 was made by Konami. Yeah, indie, OK.
22:17:19 <itidus20> well to me, the one who runs the app store becomes the publisher
22:17:47 <BlueProtoman> So then Microsoft published everything on XBLA?
22:18:12 <Phantom_Hoover> BlueProtoman, is this just a vanilla BF interp in $language?
22:18:39 <BlueProtoman> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it's a vanilla Brainfuck interpreter in C++11.
22:18:52 <BlueProtoman> I do plan on implementing Extended Brainfuck later, but now I just wanna get this done.
22:19:26 <elliott> "Extending the brainfuck language is like bolting parts to a skateboard in an attempt to build a pickup truck." -- daniel b cristofani
22:19:43 <itidus20> BlueProtoman: well.. XBLIG and iPhone app stores are the cheapest to participate (i think (i havent looked up android) )
22:19:44 <BlueProtoman> Phantom_Hoover: What's your name on the wiki? Your IRC name got no results.
22:20:28 <elliott> Brainfuck derivatives are pretty unpopular in the community because there's a gigantic number of them already and they're rarely interesting
22:20:39 <BlueProtoman> elliott: I'm not making any of my own, just implementing a few.
22:20:45 <itidus20> XBLA is something like WiiWare but i don't know how much it costs to get in
22:20:56 * elliott was just explaining the sentiment
22:21:09 <BlueProtoman> Noted. I promise not to create a new BF derivative.
22:21:51 <shachaf> zzo38: Have you ever implemented Csbjogvdl?
22:21:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover doesn't really code.
22:22:03 <elliott> (Actually he doesn't really do much of anything.)
22:22:13 <itidus20> shachaf: is that a welsh brainfuck derivative?
22:22:31 <BlueProtoman> This is a channel that appears primarily to coders. I don't even...
22:23:02 <elliott> Well, you can be a computer scientist without being a coder. (But you won't be a very good one.)
22:23:04 <Phantom_Hoover> <BlueProtoman> Phantom_Hoover: What's your name on the wiki? Your IRC name got no results.
22:23:48 <shachaf> elliott: Thanks for insulting every computer scientist in the first half of the last century!
22:24:08 <elliott> shachaf: (That was more like proto-computer-science.)
22:24:08 <BlueProtoman> Phantom_Hoover, I promise not to create a new Brainfuck derivative.
22:24:19 <elliott> BlueProtoman: It may be too late.
22:24:27 <elliott> You never know when your brain might become a brick.
22:24:55 <elliott> Snarky comment about definitely not needing it for that.
22:25:46 <shachaf> BlueProtoman: Keep in mind that elliott *is* school.
22:26:21 <elliott> No, I just *am* school. Apparently.
22:26:28 <elliott> I am the abstract concept of school itself.
22:26:40 <shachaf> What! I thought you were the concrete concept.
22:26:54 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, the way BF is normally specified is kind of dumb.
22:26:54 <elliott> We don't have concrete in England.
22:27:00 <elliott> BlueProtoman: (I don't have a degree, though.)
22:27:19 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: i have no idea what's wrong with your program. cut you give a debug trace of a program which fails?
22:27:34 <oerjan> (it _might_ be in the details of c++ i don't know, of course)
22:27:51 <HackEgo> 2012-05-17.txt:17:53:25: <elliott> itidus20 *is* Australia.
22:27:52 <HackEgo> 2009-01-11.txt:23:04:36: <oklopol> dewi is australian
22:28:24 <HackEgo> 2012-05-31.txt:22:27:43: <elliott> `log \*is\* australia
22:29:05 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: You should start off at -40, to make it fair.
22:29:28 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: Output is here. http://codepad.org/LUozzZvS The BF program's coming up.
22:30:53 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: um your first paste looks like - not much...
22:31:18 <BlueProtoman> And yet the BF program's supposed to go indefinitely.
22:32:09 <oerjan> it doesn't even have any of your debug statements
22:32:28 <BlueProtoman> oerjan: OK, then I'll post another version with them.
22:33:58 <BlueProtoman> It's probably a very tiny error, but I don't know what the hell it could be.
22:34:34 <BlueProtoman> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, those work. The issue is nested loops.
22:36:06 <itidus20> ahh probably the bot isn't here
22:36:50 <BlueProtoman> Ah, this one's broken. Output in a second, just putting in a debug statement.
22:39:06 <Phantom_Hoover> So yeah, I really don't like the way BF's spec makes it sound like BF has no syntax.
22:39:46 <BlueProtoman> Is it bad that I'm trying to write a BF interpreter, but can't actually program in BF?
22:40:06 <BlueProtoman> Would it be if I were trying to implement, say, Lisp or C?
22:41:27 <Phantom_Hoover> You presumably understand /how/ to program in BF, but can't handle all the accounting required to actually do any complex operation.
22:41:45 <BlueProtoman> I know what each instruction does, I know the standards, etc.
22:42:02 <BlueProtoman> Ask me to write anything in it, and I'll point to the name.
22:42:11 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: um that doesn't look broken to me...
22:42:59 <elliott> i can't write bf programs either
22:43:07 <elliott> it's much harder than writing an interp
22:43:14 <elliott> 23:39 <Phantom_Hoover> So yeah, I really don't like the way BF's spec makes it sound like BF has no syntax.
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22:43:22 <fizzie> There you go; but really, I'm asleep.
22:43:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, there's the informal one Muller gives with his interpreter which is the standard way to specify the language.
22:44:24 <BlueProtoman> Oh, shit. I confused my debug statements as garbage output somehow.
22:44:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Put it this way, I've never seen it specified another way.
22:44:42 <BlueProtoman> That simple program works fine here. But Factorial's still puzzling me.
22:45:00 <Phantom_Hoover> And definitely not anywhere that a person would learn about it
22:48:23 <itidus20> only barbarian monsters would program with it
22:48:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm almost tempted to add a section to the esolangs page giving an actual grammar.
22:48:56 <itidus20> oh.. don't pay attention to me................
22:49:24 <BlueProtoman> So, itidus20, how can I fix my interpreter, then? :)
22:49:36 <itidus20> i don't know, thats why i said don't pay attention to me
22:49:56 <BlueProtoman> Running this program; http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/squares.b just brings the pointer below the first element, somehow.
22:50:28 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: it _looks_ to me like the factorial one might be actually ending the main loop and doing the three .'s in the final comment :P
22:50:31 <itidus20> i'm not here for coding or for computer science.. no infact i am here for the social life
22:51:16 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: i'm speaking about the debug trace
22:51:35 <BlueProtoman> itidus20: Social life, on IRC. Yeah, and I'm both of New York State's senators.
22:51:44 <fizzie> Have nextInstruction print, before execution, the locations (offsets) of the program and memory pointer and the values at those points; then compare that sort of trace with one you get by running the program on (virtual) pen and paper, and find the place of first deviation.
22:52:48 <fizzie> (And then figure out why it does the wrong thing at that point.)
22:54:50 <elliott> BlueProtoman: this channel is pretty social :P
22:56:13 <BlueProtoman> Odd, currentinstruction ahd index (both of which are char*) show characters when I print them, and not addresses.
22:58:43 <BlueProtoman> How do I convert them to just a pointer, rather than a whole C-string?
22:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh my god all three of the marksdorfs are actually training at the archery range
22:59:54 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: hm after going through the trace as best i can, i suspect that it is _not_ [ and ] that does anything wrong, _assuming_ it's actually taking the right branch at each step, that's consistent with a path through the entire program
23:00:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Also I have 66 dorfs, huge amounts of clutter and temperature on and it's still running at 100FPS.
23:00:22 <fizzie> BlueProtoman: If you want a single dubious point, >'s tape-boundary checking looks like it. If the test fires, you're already one past the end (tape.data() + tape.size() does not point to a valid part of tape); so you both append a 0, and increment index, leaving you again at tape.data()+tape.size(), an invalid location. The test should be after ++index, presumably.
23:00:40 <oerjan> i suspect it's actually the tape values. maybe what fizzie said.
23:01:52 <BlueProtoman> Thank you very, very much! You've just saved my AP CS grade!
23:02:56 <elliott> BlueProtoman: You have to write a BF interpreter for your CS grade?
23:03:14 <oerjan> elliott: _very_ hardcore
23:03:14 <elliott> fizzie: Good sleephelping.
23:03:17 <BlueProtoman> elliott: No, I chose to. We were given a final project that we have a lot of control over.
23:03:35 <BlueProtoman> It could be pretty much anything. My classmate did an Android game, for instance.
23:04:11 <BlueProtoman> I had one in the works as a toy project, anyway.
23:09:38 <BlueProtoman> Question. I've got summer break coming up soon, and I'm trying to decide what CS-related venture to take. Which do you think I could learn the most from; creating a game with someone, studying data structures (I mean the theory, I know how to use stack, queue, list, etc. classes), or learning Python? Or maybe something else?
23:10:29 <elliott> what languages do you know already?
23:11:16 <elliott> those horizons need expanding, C++ and Java are not really some of the better languages out there :p
23:11:20 <elliott> (and are ~fairly similar to start with)
23:11:33 <elliott> you could combine the Python thing and the game thing, perhaps
23:11:34 <BlueProtoman> I'm in my university's CS Honors Program. Due to the way the core Honors curriculum is set up, I won't be able to take the Data Structures Honors class until next fall.
23:15:24 <elliott> I don't like Python much, but it's certainly better than C++
23:15:40 <elliott> and you'll probably have fun with it
23:16:18 <elliott> I'm not sure what the best Python learning material is these days. Probably avoid Dive into Python?
23:16:37 <BlueProtoman> I've dabbled in Python before, but nothing serious. I do know that the official docs are really good.
23:16:42 <elliott> shachaf: Is the official Python tutorial any good?
23:16:53 <shachaf> elliott: I don't know. I never read it.
23:17:03 <elliott> ISTR it being a bit dry, but I don't really remember.
23:17:20 <shachaf> The official Haskell tutorial is pretty good.
23:17:28 <elliott> It's not awfully pleasant.
23:17:39 <shachaf> In an elitist "makes me feel good about myself when other people can't understand it" sort of way, of course.
23:17:52 <BlueProtoman> elliott: So what GUI library would you use instead? I hear bad things about wxWidgets. Whatever GUI library I use, it has to be cross-platform and native-looking.
23:17:53 <elliott> BlueProtoman: And it's probably worse to learn it with another programming language, since it generally maps badly to other languages.
23:18:02 <elliott> (Heck, it doesn't even map to C++ well.)
23:18:12 <shachaf> BlueProtoman: HTML5+JAVASCRIPT+CSS=GUI OF THE FUTURE
23:18:13 <elliott> BlueProtoman: I wouldn't learn a GUI library now, unless you really really want to for some reason.
23:18:20 <elliott> They're generally very unpleasant things.
23:18:29 <elliott> (And nothing is "cross-platform and native-looking" everywhere, sorry.)
23:18:48 <shachaf> BlueProtoman: A desktop is just a thin client with a thick server hiding underneath!
23:18:53 <elliott> Not native-looking on plenty of platforms.
23:19:18 <shachaf> You should probably learn Objective C and Cocoa.
23:19:19 <elliott> e.g. OS X, and on X11 (considering native from either a GNOME or KDE or Xfce perspective)
23:19:34 <shachaf> You don't need an iDevice.
23:20:13 <elliott> Is BlueProtoman taking shachaf seriously?
23:20:39 <BlueProtoman> The Android SDK is a real possibility, though.
23:20:46 <elliott> I would suggest not learning that, either.
23:21:07 <shachaf> BlueProtoman: OK, so, seriously, why would you learn a GUI?
23:22:11 <BlueProtoman> shachaf: So I can make non-game/non-console interfaces?
23:22:24 <BlueProtoman> elliott: Even though I have an Android device?
23:22:46 <elliott> One, it's Java. Two, it's awful.
23:22:55 <BlueProtoman> elliott: So what the hell would I use instead, then?
23:23:13 <elliott> Three, even if you have an amazing burning desire to write Android apps that goes deep right into your soul, it's only going to impair you in the future, because you'll have spent a bunch of time learning a really awful API.
23:23:34 <elliott> BlueProtoman: I would write things that aren't GUI apps, at least for a while.
23:23:55 <BlueProtoman> But I want to do game dev. How the hell would I reach Android users, then? Whatever happened to broadening your market?
23:23:56 <elliott> (Hell, I'd avoid touching GUI code even now. It is not a very enjoyable experience.)
23:24:32 <elliott> Well, "GUI" isn't the same thing as "game programming", for a start.
23:24:47 <elliott> Anyway, if your motives are economic rather than learning, then that obviously changes a lot. (But you need the latter for the former.)
23:25:32 <BlueProtoman> Of course. But porting software is great practice for CS majors, is it not?
23:25:54 <BlueProtoman> And just because I do game programming doesn't mean the only programs I write will be games.
23:26:01 <elliott> Well, uh, I wouldn't say so.
23:26:54 <elliott> Porting software is ugly business and does not really exercise any of the truly relevant skills that you'd care about as a CS major.
23:27:34 <shachaf> The greatest accomplishment of many accomplished computer scientists is porting.
23:28:23 <shachaf> Remember that great paper Turing published about how you can port any program to his machine?
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23:31:11 * oerjan thinks this notion of porting may include most of his programs in recent times
23:36:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Hah, a goblin snatcher grabbed a hunter's baby off her.
23:40:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh for fuck's sake you idiot don't kill things by pouring expensive ammo into them.
23:40:35 <shachaf> I kill things by making them invent BF derivatives.
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23:52:23 <Phantom_Hoover> A goblin snatcher attacks! The troops are sortied! The marksdwarves catch sight of their enemy, draw a bead, fire...
23:52:42 <Phantom_Hoover> And successfully cripple a tiger standing in the general vicinity minding its own business.
23:53:04 <Phantom_Hoover> The snatcher, meanwhile, outruns the rest of the soldiers.