←2015-12 2016-01 2016-02→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:00:09 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, I thought that \<space> was an escape code
00:00:20 <oerjan> no, it's just what HackEgo uses for output
00:00:38 <hppavilion[1]> `` echo "#!/bin/sh ; if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] ; then echo \"Hello, world!\" ; fi" > bin/1492
00:00:42 <HackEgo> No output.
00:00:46 <hppavilion[1]> `1492
00:00:47 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/1492: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/1492: cannot execute: Permission denied
00:00:48 <b_jonas> Happy new year, +0 timezone people!
00:00:52 <hppavilion[1]> Didn't expect that to work
00:00:56 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: psst, you could use `cp
00:01:11 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes, I could, but I'm stupid
00:01:19 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I have to `touch bin/1492?
00:01:24 <hppavilion[1]> `touch bin/1492
00:01:25 <HackEgo> No output.
00:01:33 <hppavilion[1]> `` echo "#!/bin/sh ; if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] ; then echo \"Hello, world!\" ; fi" > bin/1492
00:01:34 <HackEgo> No output.
00:01:37 <hppavilion[1]> `1492
00:01:38 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/1492: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/1492: cannot execute: Permission denied
00:01:42 <hppavilion[1]> Ok, I give up
00:01:45 <hppavilion[1]> xD
00:02:25 <Taneb> Happy near yew
00:02:31 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: "chmod" hth
00:02:38 <hppavilion[1]> `` chmod "#!/bin/sh ; if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] ; then echo \"Hello, flat world!\" ; fi" > bin/1492
00:02:40 <HackEgo> chmod: missing operand after `#!/bin/sh ; if [ 2016 != bash ] ; then echo "Hello, flat world!" ; fi' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
00:02:50 <hppavilion[1]> `` chmod bin/1492 "#!/bin/sh ; if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] ; then echo \"Hello, flat world!\" ; fi"
00:02:51 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----###
00:02:51 <HackEgo> chmod: invalid mode: `bin/1492' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
00:03:01 <hppavilion[1]> `chmod --help
00:03:02 <HackEgo> Usage: chmod [OPTION]... MODE[,MODE]... FILE... \ or: chmod [OPTION]... OCTAL-MODE FILE... \ or: chmod [OPTION]... --reference=RFILE FILE... \ Change the mode of each FILE to MODE. \ \ -c, --changes like verbose but report only when a change is made \ --no-preserve-root do not treat `/' specially (the default) \ --pr
00:03:04 <oerjan> chmod is the command for setting file permissions.
00:03:09 <hppavilion[1]> Oooooooooooooooh
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00:03:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: See, I'm an idiot. You must keep that in mind.
00:03:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So here's an idea for an EsOS: OO Filesystem
00:03:50 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of files, you have instances based on classes.
00:04:33 <hppavilion[1]> Not sure how methods work though.
00:04:47 <oerjan> `` cp bin/{2015,1492}
00:04:49 <HackEgo> No output.
00:05:03 <oerjan> `` 2015; 1492
00:05:03 <hppavilion[1]> `1492
00:05:06 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/1492: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/1492: cannot execute: Permission denied
00:05:06 <HackEgo> Hello, world! \ bash: /hackenv/bin/1492: Permission denied
00:05:11 <oerjan> argh
00:05:14 <oerjan> hm
00:05:22 <hppavilion[1]> :)
00:05:32 <oerjan> `` rm bin/1492; cp bin/{2015,1492}
00:05:35 <HackEgo> No output.
00:05:40 <oerjan> `1492
00:05:41 <HackEgo> Hello, world!
00:06:08 <oerjan> stupidly, cp only transfers permissions when the file doesn't already exist
00:06:09 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: See, but the world is flat, remember?
00:06:23 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----###
00:06:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I KNOW
00:06:40 <hppavilion[1]> THAT'S THE JOKE
00:06:45 <oerjan> O KAY
00:07:25 <oerjan> a dead unicorn trope if there ever was one
00:07:29 <shachaf> that joke fell flatter than they beieved the world was
00:07:37 <shachaf> l
00:07:46 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So OO fsys? What do you think? Or is there a better idea??
00:08:13 <b_jonas> `? moon
00:08:15 <HackEgo> The Moon is an unprovable celestial object that is not very retroreflectorey.
00:08:17 <b_jonas> `? year
00:08:18 <HackEgo> year? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:08:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i see OO and immediately run away hth
00:08:54 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But good OO. Not Javic OO.
00:09:22 <hppavilion[1]> An OS where the filesystem need not be based on a file tree; you can customize it to your every whim
00:09:55 <oerjan> i'm sure i had that idea > 20 years ago
00:10:03 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Do you have a more eso- ide?
00:10:06 <hppavilion[1]> *idea
00:10:21 <hppavilion[1]> One that's actually something people might want to use?
00:10:36 <oerjan> OXYMORON DETECTED
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00:11:06 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Eso /= bad for use
00:11:13 <hppavilion[1]> Haskell is eso, remember
00:11:41 <oerjan> O KAY excuse me i'm reading tvtropes again
00:14:20 <boily> darn. was transfering pictures from my camera, and a missed a live swatting.
00:14:30 <boily> s/and a/and I/
00:14:56 <boily> hppavellon[1]. Haskell isn't eso, it's categorically eso.
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00:20:23 <boily> gamellomanj. when are you?
00:20:33 <gamemanj> Happy new year too, boily. :)
00:21:45 <gamemanj> I'm actually in GMT, but A. my clock seems to be off (forgot to install NTPd here...) and B. I only recently thought to start distributing Happy New Year messages
00:24:00 <oerjan> Yappy hue nair
00:24:56 <gamemanj> Appy kitten ear!
00:24:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[4]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46058&oldid=42712 * Vriskanon * (+0) Changed Grid co-ordinates such that 0,0 is top left, rather than bottom left.
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00:50:41 <Taneb> I don't really feel like staying up super really late like I normally do
00:54:35 <boily> Happy Tanew yearb!
00:55:40 <shachaf> Taneb: Haneb
01:05:04 <zzo38> How many other people will write comment to my card
01:06:14 <boily> hezzo38. you have a card?
01:06:38 <zzo38> Yes I made up many Magic: the Gathering cards, including some new ones recently
01:08:53 <shachaf> I don't use htdigest so I can't comment.
01:09:01 <shachaf> If you had a regular account registration system I might use it.
01:09:01 <zzo38> It is available in three formats (plain text, SQLite database, and a webpage), but to send comment you will need the account; tell me the account by private message and then I will put it in. The realm for the account is CustomMTG_zzo38
01:09:35 <zzo38> You can also just tell me the password by private message and I will do myself is another way, although it is recommended to make the MD5 calculation yourself instead.
01:11:46 <zzo38> I can add a form to make the MD5 hash of your account automatically if you have JavaScripts.
01:20:59 <zzo38> OK, now there is a form to do it
01:21:38 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php
01:22:58 <zzo38> Now are you able to do it? Now it can be done by form.
01:43:06 <tswett> So here's that Magic card: http://mtgcardsmith.com/view/magic-magnet
01:43:58 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Enchanted... enchantment? Wut?
01:44:07 <tswett> Yup.
01:44:13 <tswett> You enchant enchantments.
01:44:37 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: But... but... but...
01:44:42 <hppavilion[1]> THAT MAKES NO SENSE
01:45:11 <zzo38> Why it makes no sense?
01:45:15 <izabera> yo dawg i heard you like enchantments
01:45:31 <tswett> Say, here's a question.
01:45:47 <tswett> Suppose a card says this: "When this card enters the battlefield, it becomes red until end of turn."
01:45:54 <tswett> It enters the battlefield, but leaves before the ability resolves.
01:46:11 <tswett> Nothing becomes red, right?
01:46:14 <zzo38> Then I think nothing happens; that object no longer exists.
01:46:18 <tswett> Right.
01:52:07 <boily> impermanence of red objects.
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01:55:20 <boily> `relcome dioneone666999
01:55:22 <HackEgo> dioneone666999: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:55:43 <boily> probably the last `relcome of the year...
01:55:52 <hppavilion[1]> `relcome
01:55:54 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:56:02 <boily> hey :P
01:56:02 <hppavilion[1]> boily: YOU WERE WRONG
01:56:58 <boily> and with that, happy new year y'all! up to watching tv specials with the parents (and probably embooze my blood system as collateral damage).
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02:14:12 <hppavilion[1]> http://cheezburger.com/8591039232/guy-edits-bands-wikipedia-page-to-get-backstage-has-beer-with-peking-duk?ref=relatedspp
02:16:23 <izabera> they're paying for security
02:27:38 <hppavilion[1]> Oh god
02:27:43 <hppavilion[1]> This kid graduated in 2015
02:28:07 <hppavilion[1]> His senior quote was from Bill Cosby and Jared the Subway Guy was the person he looked up to the most
02:28:13 <hppavilion[1]> s/2015/2013/
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02:51:03 <hppavilion[1]> We should come up with a better unit of measurement than LoC
02:58:58 <izabera> wtfs per hour
03:00:51 <\oren\> LadjLOC
03:01:06 <\oren\> Language Adjusted Lines of Code
03:01:48 <\oren\> Eg. we benchmark how much code tasks take in various languages, and aply a coeficiant
03:02:41 <\oren\> Also perhaps the LOC should be measured after reformatting to a standard whitespace rule
03:03:35 <\oren\> it's similar to GDP-PPP
03:04:22 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: And what about BF? I think that our metric should work with languages that forgo LoC like BF or, worse, Befunge
03:04:48 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: But also, removing code is good if you don't lose functionality
03:04:58 <\oren\> hmm, for character-oriented languages i guess we measure characters instead of lines
03:05:49 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: But what about an equivalent BF program to a Python program? I imagine for most programs, the BF has more characters than the python has lines
03:06:05 <\oren\> but regardless, the procedure is measure the file somehow, then apply a standard coefieciant to convert it to CLOCE (C Lines of Code Equivalent)
03:06:19 <hppavilion[1]> And in Python, for example, is while x<5 really equivalent to a complex list generator?
03:06:30 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: That's better
03:06:42 <\oren\> so in the case of BF, the coeficiant would be very small
03:07:04 <hppavilion[1]> Of course
03:07:13 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: And what about libraries? Do we count those?
03:07:30 <hppavilion[1]> It depends on what you're measuring, of course
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03:23:51 <hppavilion[1]> http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/516/361/e9d.jpg
03:23:52 <hppavilion[1]> WHAT
03:26:50 <oerjan> yo dawg i heard you like knives
03:40:21 <izabera> they're also lighter
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04:12:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ROOP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46059&oldid=45970 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+2440) Computational class. Is turing complete!
04:15:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[4]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46060&oldid=46058 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+0) /* The end */
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05:10:16 <hppavilion[1]> I had an idea for an AWESOME name for my Combinatory Logic Language
05:10:29 <hppavilion[1]> SCPL
05:10:48 <hppavilion[1]> It stands for Combinatory Logic Programming Language,
05:11:26 <izabera> what's the s for?
05:11:27 <hppavilion[1]> Or more accurately, Combinatory Logic (Programming Langauge)
05:11:36 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Just think about it for a second
05:12:08 <izabera> i get it, it stands for stupid
05:12:17 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Do you ACTUALLY get it?
05:12:41 <hppavilion[1]> (I got the behavior of the S combinator right, correct?)
05:12:57 <izabera> i rest my case
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05:13:19 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Oh come on, that's the greatest pun ever invented and you know it
05:13:23 <hppavilion[1]> Sure, that isn't saying much
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05:13:27 <hppavilion[1]> But still
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06:55:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Element118 * New user account
06:56:12 <Sgeo> "For example: in arbitrary-precision arithmetic, operations are often performed in a base that is equal to 2^word_size. The most basic division algorithm, "Schoolbook Division", has a step that will be taken in 2/B cases (where B is the base the numbers are in), given random input. On a 32-bit processor that is approximately one in two billion cases, for 64-bit it's one in 18 quintillion cases."
06:56:14 <Sgeo> o.O
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07:46:36 <hppavilion[1]> Reverse copyright: You have to use it in all publicly-published works, unless explicitly given permission by the copyright holder not to
07:47:20 <hppavilion[1]> *permission /not/ to
07:50:03 <izabera> nice
08:00:36 <quintopia> whats got you all up
08:01:11 <izabera> busy writing code
08:01:25 <izabera> no time for irc
08:01:42 <quintopia> oh ok
08:03:08 <izabera> in italy we say "who does X on new year's day, will do X all year long"
08:03:13 <izabera> it rhimes in italian
08:03:24 <izabera> rhymes
08:11:46 <Sgeo> http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/31/health/mre-meals-study-feat/index.html tempting
08:13:37 <Sgeo> $200, which isn't a lot, but hey, free MREs for 3 weeks
08:29:45 <hppavilion[1]> http://i.imgur.com/VdfKRhc.webm
09:30:03 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, it's new years
09:30:06 <hppavilion[1]> So yay
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09:48:00 <Sgeo> Is he ok/is that fake?
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11:46:29 <diginet> I had an for an esoteric language: use jacquard loom cards for input, where the program output is a textile
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12:17:29 <Taneb> So, a Jacquard loom
12:21:10 <diginet> Taneb: Jacquard looms aren't turing complete
12:25:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Oerjan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46061&oldid=41033 * LegionMammal978 * (+246) /* Deletion Request */ new section
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13:49:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Asdf]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46062&oldid=39618 * * (+1) /* Move the pointer left, regardless of toggle bit (note: may perform I/O at low addresses) */ simply "as" would also toggle the current bit
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17:19:04 <boily> `2016
17:19:14 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 2016: not found
17:19:19 <boily> `wisdom
17:19:21 <HackEgo> guestbot/guestbot is nobody
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17:54:56 <Taneb> `2015
17:54:57 <HackEgo> Hello, world!
17:55:01 <Taneb> Ahahahah!
17:55:04 <Taneb> First time it's done that :)
17:55:13 <Taneb> (to my knowledge)
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17:56:11 <Taneb> Apart from cheating times
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17:59:50 <olsner> `2015
17:59:51 <HackEgo> Hello, world!
18:00:28 <myname> why is there no copy as 2016?
18:00:35 <Taneb> `cp bin/2014 bin/2016 # let's see how good my memory is
18:00:37 <HackEgo> cp: missing destination file operand after `bin/2014 bin/2016 # let\'s see how good my memory is' \ Try `cp --help' for more information.
18:00:41 <Taneb> `run cp bin/2014 bin/2016 # let's see how good my memory is
18:00:44 <HackEgo> No output.
18:00:47 <Taneb> `2016
18:00:48 <HackEgo> Hello, world!
18:00:51 <Taneb> :D
18:01:00 <olsner> `run cp bin/2014 bin/2017
18:01:00 <myname> well ...
18:01:03 <olsner> `2017
18:01:03 <HackEgo> No output.
18:01:04 <HackEgo> No output.
18:04:46 <boily> Tanelle, mynamello, hellolsner!
18:04:55 <boily> @tell oerjan where are my kittens?
18:04:55 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:05:10 <boily> @tell oerjan (I meant to @ask, not @tell)
18:05:10 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:05:30 <olsner> boily: I ate them
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18:43:09 <boily> nooooooooooooo!
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18:55:43 <zzo38> Is it good to eat?
18:56:07 <ais523> I haven't seen context, but guessing, no
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19:16:54 <izabera> boily | @tell oerjan where are my kittens?
19:16:55 <izabera> ly: I ate them
19:16:57 <izabera> boily | nooooooooooooo!
19:17:01 <izabera> fuck copy paste gone wrong
19:17:37 <b_jonas> ais523: hi
19:17:43 <ais523> hi
19:18:04 <b_jonas> izabera: they're building their evil plan of hypnotizing all humans to telepathically control them and become the master of the universe
19:18:34 <izabera> oh
19:18:35 <b_jonas> ais523: I see you posted a new esolanguage that is evil in a sneaky way.
19:18:52 <ais523> why do you consider it evil?
19:19:00 <b_jonas> ais523: It doesn't have gotos, and it probably actually matters. You can't just emulate them with other control structures like in brainfuck.
19:19:01 <ais523> `! 2014 test
19:19:07 <b_jonas> or like in C
19:19:10 <ais523> b_jonas: ah right
19:19:12 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/2014: not found
19:19:13 <ais523> I was aware of that
19:19:18 <ais523> `` 2014 test
19:19:20 <HackEgo> No output.
19:19:24 <ais523> that program is in the wrong directory
19:19:35 <ais523> decided to maintain the tradition of an end-of-year esolang, altough this time it wasn't dec 31
19:21:04 <b_jonas> or at least it might take exponentially long programs to simulate it
19:21:09 <b_jonas> but even that might not be enough
19:22:23 <ais523> ofc, PMMN doesn't have this issue as it has reliable reads and writes
19:22:35 <b_jonas> If only it had functions, it would be easy
19:25:38 <ais523> are you sure?
19:25:48 <ais523> I'm not 100% sure it's doable even with a finite state machine
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19:41:31 <b_jonas> I'm not sure really
19:41:41 <b_jonas> I don't know what that language can do
19:42:02 <b_jonas> I mean, come on, it's AT MOST a Minsky machines, and I don't like those, they're too powerless for my tastes
19:42:18 <b_jonas> mind you, if it had functions, then you'd sort of have one stack, so it's not just a Minsky machine, but still
19:49:37 <ais523> right, that's how I proved Splinter to be more than an FSM
19:50:04 <zzo38> b_jonas: I know now you have the account for comment on my custom cards but did you make the comment to write yet?
19:50:06 <ais523> (its author was aiming for sub-TC, and thought it was an FSM; I'm pretty sure it's a PDA)
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19:51:03 <ais523> b_jonas: I think Minsky machines can be powerful enough to write practical programs in
19:51:07 <ais523> if you have a sufficiently good interp
19:51:14 <ais523> (I was writing one but burned out a bit)
19:51:25 <ais523> actually it's a compiler, not an interp
19:51:36 <ais523> it's already saved a factor of O(n) for the first program I wrote
19:54:07 <ais523> the program in question prints consecutive integers in decimal
19:54:27 <ais523> I'm hoping that when the compiler is finished, it'll run faster than the C equivalent, at least if it's written the obvious way with printf
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20:04:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, I don't think I made a comment yet
20:10:48 <zzo38> I would hope that anyone who would want to write such comment can have the account. It is now possible even if you do not have MD5 software on your computer, to use the form on the webpage if you have JavaScripts, to make the calculation. Also note, you can also use program "curl" to send the comments, and also to download the database; but use of web browser is also possible.
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21:45:00 <hppavilion[1]> I reiterate something I've said before
21:45:40 <hppavilion[1]> [[Call Queue]] should be moved to [[Call Queue (language)]] so we can make a page on the abstract concept of a Call Queue
21:46:52 <Taneb> I don't think a call queue is a common enough concept
21:47:41 <ais523> there's an unfinished language I've worked on that uses a queue rather than a stack for recursion
21:48:03 <ais523> but a separate queue for each function-equivalent
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21:56:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Call stack]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46063 * Hppavilion1 * (+1422) Created page with a wholelotta red links
21:56:29 <hppavilion[1]> There. I think we needed that page.
21:57:26 <hppavilion[1]> For, y'know, information purposes for n00berific esolangers
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22:06:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Call stack/Manipulation]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46064 * Hppavilion1 * (+2065) Created Page
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22:14:43 <Taneb> My esolangs page broke for reasons so I've had to remove the animations because I don't feel like figuring out CSS3 animations
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22:20:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ChaitinFuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46065 * Hppavilion1 * (+2216) Created Page for study of Chaitin's Constant (there. A useful BF derivative.)
22:20:21 <hppavilion[1]> I have done it.
22:24:20 <Taneb> https://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/esolangs.html is the page I was talking about
22:29:24 <boily> hppavellon[1]. you ha ve done it.
22:29:35 <boily> s/ v/v/
22:49:24 <boily> `wisdom
22:49:36 <boily> ...
22:49:36 <HackEgo> hat/hatee-hatee-hatee-hooo
22:49:40 <boily> ah! :D
22:52:55 <boily> `wisdom
22:52:57 <HackEgo> portmanteau/«Portmanteau» is the French spelling of “port man toe”.
22:53:06 <boily> `wisdom
22:53:08 <HackEgo> horse/A horse, a horse! My kingdom for a horse!
22:53:12 <boily> `wisdom
22:53:14 <HackEgo> md5/MD5 is a hash algorithm mainly used by underdeveloped aliens.
22:53:31 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/md5
22:53:38 <HackEgo> mroman
22:54:01 <boily> @ask mroman mrhelloman. underdeveloped aliens?
22:54:01 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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23:05:59 <b_jonas> `? evil
23:06:01 <HackEgo> evil? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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23:48:48 <FireFly> `wisdom
23:48:52 <HackEgo> certainty/We don't know what certainty is for sure, but at least it isn't a functor.
23:49:06 <FireFly> `wisdom
23:49:10 <FireFly> `wisdom
23:49:13 <HackEgo> gaspatsjo/gaspatsjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days
23:49:39 <FireFly> followed by a lack of cold winter days
23:50:11 <FireFly> Norwegian climate converged, and now the forecast all year long is "Norwegian"
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00:01:42 <oerjan> @ping
00:01:51 <lambdabot> pong
00:02:05 <oerjan> oh _now_ you notice me
00:02:08 <oerjan> @messages-
00:02:08 <lambdabot> boily said 5h 57m 13s ago: where are my kittens?
00:02:08 <lambdabot> boily said 5h 56m 58s ago: (I meant to @ask, not @tell)
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00:04:40 <FireFly> don't@askdon't@tell
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00:05:08 <hppavilion[1]> I just went on a Recruiting mission on the xkcd Fora
00:05:22 -!- \oren\ has joined.
00:06:35 <oerjan> boily_: see http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3826
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00:07:57 <boily_> hppavilion[1]: fora?
00:08:06 -!- boily_ has changed nick to boily.
00:08:10 <hppavilion[1]> boily_: Correct latin for "forums"
00:08:27 <boily> imta there are multiple xkcd forumeses?
00:08:44 <oerjan> foraminifera
00:09:12 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Yes, there is more than one forum within the xkcd superforum
00:10:23 <hppavilion[1]> What novel and convoluted concept could I use instead of classes in an OO language?
00:12:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[User:LegionMammal978/Interpreters/Kangaroo]]": Author request: content was: "<pre> using System; using System.Collections.Generic; using System.IO; using System.Text.RegularExpressions; /* Error codes: * 0 - success * 1 ..." (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/LegionMammal978|LegionMamm
00:13:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Oerjan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46066&oldid=46061 * Oerjan * (+90) /* Deletion Request */
00:14:42 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well you cannot use lectures, because INTERCAL already did.
00:14:44 <ais523> hmm, I wonder why the author didn't want the kangaroo interp online?
00:15:01 <oerjan> he said the idea didn't work
00:15:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: try castes hth
00:15:44 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: And what would castes be?
00:16:04 <oerjan> that's your job hth
00:16:09 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose some castes are "above" others
00:16:30 <oerjan> my job is to throw out awful puns
00:16:50 <oerjan> wait is "throw out" the right p.v. here
00:17:14 <oerjan> ah yes
00:17:39 <oerjan> almost a self-antonym, that one
00:18:57 <oerjan> self-antonym has many synonyms, i see. i think the winner is enantiodrome.
00:19:40 <ais523> I like self-antonyms
00:19:56 <ais523> "transparent" is a good one ("you can see the inner workings" vs. "you don't have to care about the inner workings")
00:21:17 <oerjan> "Some pairs of contronyms are true homographs, i.e., distinct words with different etymology which happen to have the same form. For instance cleave "separate" is from Old English clēofan, while cleave "adhere" is from Old English clifian, which was pronounced differently."
00:21:34 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps groups, where you specify methods and elements?
00:21:46 <oerjan> i think those must be cognate to no:klyve and no:klebe
00:22:07 <ais523> oerjan: where is that a quote from?
00:22:18 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-antonym
00:22:49 <ais523> thanks
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01:47:21 <boily> `wisdom
01:47:26 <HackEgo> superexponential growth/Superexponential growth? SUPEREXPONENTIAL GROWTH?! HOLY CRAP!!!
01:47:37 <boily> fungot!
01:47:37 <fungot> boily: never knew that adams has played guitar on a pink floyd gig...
01:47:46 <boily> fungot: me neither.
01:47:46 <fungot> boily: ( which is absolutely no c whatsoever. even most of the topic, i came across an asm dump of metroid ( nes) ( a
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01:55:50 <hppavilion[1]> Whoo! I defined == for typemaker!
01:57:05 <hppavilion[1]> For the UnsignedIntegers at least
01:57:10 <hppavilion[1]> It's recursive xD
01:57:20 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I have defined == recursively.
02:00:35 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, I need to define a base case
02:00:48 <hppavilion[1]> There we go
02:00:53 <hppavilion[1]> It's just a return True
02:02:06 <FireFly> fungot~
02:02:07 <fungot> FireFly: i have no real idea what " the scheme programming language, yes...
02:02:22 <FireFly> fungot: I think it delimits string literals
02:02:22 <fungot> FireFly: that's easy in basic: 10 print " every problem looks like a minor third harmonic?
02:02:45 <FireFly> fungot: 20 goto 10?
02:02:45 <fungot> FireFly: hmm would scheme run good on a stack, what's the action going to pay 80 for a fucking long time alright
02:03:12 <hppavilion[1]> `? ==
02:03:13 <HackEgo> ​==? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:03:14 <FireFly> fungot: are we talking like 50s computers here?
02:03:14 <fungot> FireFly: llc is you got a quote of how that can be easily modified, the ability to solve problems you need to
02:03:27 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn ==/Did you know you can define == recursively!?
02:03:31 <HackEgo> Learned «==»
02:29:08 <Sgeo> Is it wrong that I think Plumpy'Nut sounds delicious?
02:29:21 <Sgeo> I mean, it's for use for famine emergencies, not just because it sounds good
02:44:20 <Phantom_Hoover> yes Sgeo it's very wrong
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02:45:27 <Phantom_Hoover> "Plumpy'Nut is said to be "surprisingly tasty"." i mean even wikipedia thinks it's perfectly normal
02:49:58 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, by the way
02:50:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: Why, exactly, do you have Plumpy'Nut?
02:50:13 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out a more logical way to write surreal numbers based on additional decimal places
02:50:37 <Sgeo> pikhq, I don't
02:50:42 <oerjan> pikhq: he stole it from starving orphans hth
02:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> you can't write surreal numbers with additional decimal places
02:50:50 <pikhq> OIC
02:50:59 <Phantom_Hoover> they are uncountable and cannot be represented by any finite notation
02:51:16 <hppavilion[1]> My current idea is this: the real number is written normally, except with ; instead of . for the decimal (so you can identify the centre)
02:51:19 <coppro> oerjan: if I ever come to finland, how do I avoid you? asking for a friend
02:51:33 <Phantom_Hoover> they are a proper class and cannot be represented by anything 'small'
02:51:37 <oerjan> coppro: that's easy since i'm in norway hth
02:51:54 <oerjan> i've never even been to finland
02:52:00 <Phantom_Hoover> the scheme you are describing will give you some variation on the bog-standard extended reals
02:52:36 <Sgeo> "Sign up for the Plumpy’Nut Challenge. They will send you a box of Plumpy’Nut packets. You must agree to only eat Plumpy’Nut for a few days to a week."
02:52:46 <coppro> oerjan: tdh
02:52:59 <coppro> wait, I've been to norway!
02:53:22 <hppavilion[1]> Each . after the decimal place is a separator so each the subsequent number is in the region of to ε**c, where c is the . count up to that point (inclusive)
02:53:57 <hppavilion[1]> So 31;41.59 is equal to 31.41+59ε
02:54:37 <hppavilion[1]> 31;41.59.26 is equal to 31.41+59ε+26e**2
02:54:45 <oerjan> coppro: were you in trondheim? could have been a close call.
02:55:29 <hppavilion[1]> .. instead means tetration, so 31;41..59 is equal to 31.41+59ε**ε
02:55:37 <hppavilion[1]> ... is pentation
02:55:39 <hppavilion[1]> Et cetera
02:56:20 <hppavilion[1]> On the other side of the ;, you deal with ω
02:56:35 * oerjan is not entirely clear on whether surreal numbers have a decimal expansion even if you allow Omega digits
02:56:53 <oerjan> (Omega = class of all ordinals)
02:57:28 <oerjan> as in, (1) would they have a decimal expansion (2) would the digits be well ordered?
02:57:29 <hppavilion[1]> So 3.14 is actually equal to 3ω+14 in my representation, not to 3.14 (as a real number)
02:57:38 <hppavilion[1]> Then of course .. is tetration
02:57:41 <hppavilion[1]> ... is pentation
02:57:45 <hppavilion[1]> etc.
02:58:10 <hppavilion[1]> Now, there are some flaws I can think of with this, but it's better to help people understand the surreals than {|}
02:58:20 <hppavilion[1]> For example, how do your write sqrt(ω)?
02:58:43 <hppavilion[1]> sqrt(ω) isn't equal to sqrt(1)*ω=1*ω=ω, as far as I know. Then again, it might be.
02:58:47 <hppavilion[1]> Is it? I really don't know
02:59:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Do you know?
02:59:31 <oerjan> i never really learned beyond multiplication
02:59:34 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
02:59:49 <oerjan> i just know you can supposedly define lots of stuff
03:00:43 <oerjan> also, i'm not sure i ever learned multiplication properly. i've probably forgotten it again. addition and subtraction are easy though.
03:00:55 <coppro> oerjan: yeah
03:01:02 <coppro> this was like 6 years ago though
03:01:26 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: Do you know about sqrt(ω)?
03:01:36 <coppro> no
03:02:25 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, and of course, you fill in empty spaces with 0
03:02:56 <hppavilion[1]> So 1.0.14 is equal to ω**2+14ω**0 = ω**2+14
03:03:28 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm not sure you're defining a notation for surreals and not just ordinals
03:03:41 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Really? Dammit
03:03:44 <hppavilion[1]> What'm I missing?
03:03:58 <oerjan> looks pretty similar to cantor normal form for ordinals
03:04:10 <hppavilion[1]> The surreals are BIG, so I must be missing something xD
03:04:25 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Really? Yay! I made up something that a famous mathematician did something similar to!
03:04:36 <oerjan> well erm
03:04:47 <oerjan> the ω**2+14ω**0 stuff
03:04:53 <oerjan> not your actual notation.
03:04:59 <hppavilion[1]> Therefor I think vaguely like a certain famous mathematician!
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03:05:23 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ah, that was me showing what it means. Whether that's equivalent to CNF is a matter of what I'm missing.
03:05:38 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I got the infinitessimals too, did you notice?
03:05:56 <oerjan> technically that should be ω**2+ω**0*14 because ordinals are not commutative
03:06:06 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ah no, then that's a bit more
03:06:18 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ah
03:06:26 <hppavilion[1]> Noncommutativity, dammit
03:06:37 <hppavilion[1]> But are the surreals commutative?
03:08:48 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: OK, so I got reals, numbers multiplied by infinitesimals, the same with powers of infinitesimals, and generally with any infinitesimal to an arbitrary power
03:08:52 <oerjan> huh that last thing messed up a character in irssi
03:09:09 <oerjan> the surreals are commutative, they're essentially a field
03:09:22 <hppavilion[1]> You can also do infinitesimals to a natural power to a- ah, that's something I'm missing
03:09:26 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, no
03:10:04 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not missing that, because ω=ε**-1
03:10:16 <hppavilion[1]> But I don't think you can do, for example, ε**(ε**2)
03:10:25 <hppavilion[1]> Or maybe you can.
03:10:26 <hppavilion[1]> Hm...
03:10:56 <hppavilion[1]> 0;0..0.1 might be that
03:11:26 <hppavilion[1]> That's... I think it might be, actually
03:11:28 <hppavilion[1]> Yay!
03:12:27 <hppavilion[1]> But I think I AM missing ε**n where n is not an integer
03:12:37 <hppavilion[1]> Though you could do that with sum, of course
03:12:42 <hppavilion[1]> I think
03:13:09 <hppavilion[1]> But I got a good chunk of the surreals, so my notation is pretty good
03:13:35 <hppavilion[1]> I doubt it's possible to have a finite notation that can do ALL of the surreals, even with ellipses.
03:13:59 <hppavilion[1]> (that is, the plural of ellipsis, not ovals)
03:20:46 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: You can't have finite notation for all the reals
03:20:51 <FreeFull> And surreals subsume the reals
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03:22:33 <coppro> or the ordinals
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03:51:48 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz9Irijq7ps <-- holy shit how did they even
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03:55:35 <\oren\> they even do the camera angles the same...
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05:18:00 <hppavilion[1]> Here's an operation
05:18:19 <hppavilion[1]> The Algebraic Conjugate
05:19:01 <hppavilion[1]> a+bi# = a+bj, a+bj# = a+bi (i**2=-1, j**2=1, j != 1)
05:19:14 <hppavilion[1]> a+bk**2=a+bk (k**2=0, k != 0)
05:20:07 <izabera> k breaks everything
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05:27:50 <izabera> also shouldn't that be a+bk**2 = a ?
05:28:07 <izabera> anyway if such k exist, that's not a domain
05:38:03 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Whooops, I mean a+bk#
05:38:34 <hppavilion[1]> I'm rapidly switching tasks, so I sometimes type code that I'm frequently using into chat for something entirely unrelated
05:39:11 <hppavilion[1]> ("What was William Shakespear's last work?" "The coproduct of the category of categories of sets of numbers")
05:39:28 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: a+bk is the dual numbers; k is usually written epsilon, but I prefer k because it's typable
05:40:40 <hppavilion[1]> What is the name of the type of the algebra of numbers ai+bj? It's apparently not a Real 2D Algebra
06:21:30 <FreeFull> So k^2 = 0?
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06:35:03 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: How about this: i^2 = j^2 = k^2 = ijk = -1
06:35:40 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Yes, yes, you're very clever with the Quaternions or similar hypercomplex number
06:36:01 <hppavilion[1]> (YOU CANNOT TRICK ME! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!)
06:39:26 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: It's literally just the quaternions =P
06:39:42 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: I know
06:40:04 <hppavilion[1]> Or more accurately, I knew it was at least similar (e.g. Tessarines or Coquaternions or Split-Biquaternions)
06:41:03 <\oren\> hold on are you telling me some of the accented letters aren't even pronounced any diferent from the ones without an accent?!@!?
06:42:31 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: *sigh*
06:42:35 <hppavilion[1]> What language are you learning?
06:43:18 <\oren\> eh, just reading about accents in general
06:43:56 <pikhq> I bet you hate the (rare) diaresis.
06:44:05 <\oren\> apparently à is the same as à
06:44:08 <\oren\> apparently à is the same as a
06:44:30 <pikhq> Hence why "coöperate" and "cooperate" are pronounced the same.
06:44:51 <FreeFull> The Polish ó and u are pronounced the same
06:45:33 <pikhq> Lemme guess, which you use is based on whether it's an "o" being modified because grammar or not?
06:45:44 <izabera> same for ô and u in my region's dialect
06:46:45 <\oren\> pikhq: that's true for ç in French apparently
06:51:23 <\oren\> holy crap http://www.ortograf.net/
06:57:03 <hppavilion[1]> I'm embedding a secondary CAS in my CAS to make my CAS reduction easier to CAS
06:57:53 <\oren\> nah nah your doing it wrong
06:58:33 <\oren\> Yo I herd yo liek CAS so I put a CAS in yo CAS so u can CAS while you CAS
06:58:53 <FreeFull> pikhq: Yeah
07:04:54 <pikhq> Fair enough, then.
07:21:37 <FreeFull> The Polish alphabet has 32 letters
07:21:39 <\oren\> what sort of features would be expected of an esoteric human language
07:22:14 <FreeFull> \oren\: Any word can be spoken backwards
07:23:58 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: The subCAS is for the reduce() method of operations objects, which is basically programmed to do some simple reductions to make operations more efficient
07:24:23 <hppavilion[1]> So Sum(Var('x'), 0).reduce() is just Var('x')
07:25:00 <hppavilion[1]> The subCAS isn't a fully-fledged CAS, it's just a little object group with operations defined
07:27:34 <hppavilion[1]> It's the CAS before the CAS
07:27:40 <hppavilion[1]> A preprocessor, in some capacity
07:28:03 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: The ability to discuss mathematics fluently and unambiguously
07:28:17 <hppavilion[1]> A basis in Combinatory Logic
07:28:35 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Were you the one who rejected my proposal to allow esoconlangs on the wiki?
07:28:39 <hppavilion[1]> Or was that oerjan?
07:33:20 <\oren\> hmm i dunno.
07:35:16 <myname> how does it matter?
07:36:59 <myname> also, is there some other youtube channel like xidnaf?
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09:28:30 <hppavilion[1]> ⊮ is feminism's favourite unicode character
09:28:45 <hppavilion[1]> LOLOLOLOLOLOL
09:31:11 <hppavilion[1]> "So mathematicians would say that you, Ernestine, and I are not totally ordered under winning at Ping-Pong."
09:37:09 <hppavilion[1]> That does not sound like something I would hear a mathematicians cay
09:37:11 <hppavilion[1]> *say
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10:05:13 <\oren\> `unicode ⊮
10:05:30 <HackEgo> U+22AE DOES NOT FORCE \ UTF-8: e2 8a ae UTF-16BE: 22ae Decimal: &#8878; \ ⊮ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ Decomposition: 22A9 0338
10:06:16 <hppavilion[1]> Whoa. sqrt(2) is rational in the surreals.
10:06:26 <hppavilion[1]> mind.state := blown
10:06:59 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Was your mind.state == blown when you first learned that?
10:08:20 <\oren\> mind.setState(Mind::State_Blown);
10:14:26 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: My solution is functional :)
10:14:34 <hppavilion[1]> (It just doesn't look like it)
10:14:47 <hppavilion[1]> (except for the :=)
10:16:35 <hppavilion[1]> sqrt(2)=sqrt(2*omega)/omega
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14:31:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[V--]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46067&oldid=12182 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */
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15:15:13 <Sgeo> Happy 2017! https://www.reddit.com/r/shittyaskscience/comments/3yzt84/if_yesterday_was_2015_and_today_is_2016_is/
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15:46:38 <boily> `wisdom
15:46:47 <HackEgo> welp/welp is humid kelp, and not at all related to toes, their hairs, and generic requests for TWHes and TDHes.
15:55:40 <FireFly> `wisdom
15:55:41 <HackEgo> csv/CSV猫stands猫for猫Cat猫Separated猫Values
15:55:57 <FireFly> Of course
15:57:43 <boily> FirelloFly.
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16:05:53 <Taneb> Exam nervousness ahoy
16:07:02 <boily> Tanelle. you are suffering an exam on which subject today?
16:07:44 <Taneb> Well, I don't have any until Monday
16:07:47 <Taneb> Then I have 5 in four days
16:07:53 <Taneb> The first is formal methods
16:08:34 <Taneb> Then Algebraic Number Theory, then Eodermdrome, then Linear Optimization and Game Theory, then information theory
16:08:48 -!- J_Arcane has joined.
16:09:56 <boily> one of these is not like the other.
16:10:07 <boily> s/r\./rs./
16:10:52 <Taneb> https://www.cs.york.ac.uk/modules/grat.html
16:12:14 <boily> Authentication Required.
16:13:01 <Taneb> Sorry
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16:13:39 <Taneb> The aims of this module are to:
16:13:42 <Taneb> To introduce the foundations of computing by graph transformation
16:13:45 <Taneb> To introduce the principles of rule-based programming in domains of graph-like structures
16:13:59 <Taneb> As a result of studying this module students should: (1) be familiar with the main concepts and results of graph transformation; (2) be able to recognise problems in various areas of computer science as suitable for applying graph transformation; (3) be able to write graph programs for solving problems in graph-like domains and reason about program correctness and complexity.
16:14:34 <boily> tdh.
16:16:34 <agawa> a prolifer ?
16:17:13 <FireFly> boilyo
16:17:37 <Taneb> agawa, what about a profiler
16:18:01 <agawa> said if is it a profiler
16:19:33 <Taneb> I am not sure I understand what you mean
16:21:00 * FireFly is a pro-lifer
16:21:47 <agawa> thing that we are access-denied
16:22:08 <Taneb> It's the module description
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17:07:08 <b_jonas> `wisdom
17:07:21 <HackEgo> diet/People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
17:12:41 <Phantom_Hoover> `? deit
17:12:43 <HackEgo> deit? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:13:38 <tswett> `run sed -i '' 's/loose/lose' wisdom/diet
17:13:39 <HackEgo> sed: can't read s/loose/lose: No such file or directory
17:13:54 <tswett> `run sed -i 's/loose/lose' wisdom/diet
17:13:55 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 12: unterminated `s' command
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17:14:03 <tswett> `run sed -i 's/loose/lose/' wisdom/diet
17:14:05 <HackEgo> No output.
17:14:08 <tswett> `? diet
17:14:09 <HackEgo> People go on diets to lose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
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17:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, p sure that was deliberate, note 'consistant'
17:18:34 <tswett> `run sed -i 's/lose/loose/' wisdom/diet
17:18:37 <HackEgo> No output.
17:18:39 <tswett> `? diet
17:18:41 <HackEgo> People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
17:19:56 <b_jonas> `? even
17:19:57 <HackEgo> even? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:19:57 <b_jonas> `? odd
17:19:58 <HackEgo> odd? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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17:56:15 <FireFly> `culprits wisdom/diet
17:56:18 <HackEgo> tswett tswett int-e ais523 oerjan elliott oerjan FireFly
17:56:25 <FireFly> huh.
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17:59:06 <ais523> the "ais523" is I think from when I wrote a script to delete random wisdom entries, only it screwed up and did something unintentional
17:59:20 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what, but IIRC the next few names are from people trying to fix it
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18:08:09 <b_jonas> `? ingredient
18:08:10 <HackEgo> ingredient? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:09:42 <FireFly> The "huh" was mostly because I don't remember what it's supposed to reference, but IIRC it's a verbatim quote from somewhere
18:09:44 <FireFly> possibly spam
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22:12:21 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x232d 0x2335
22:12:22 <HackEgo> Segmentation fault
22:12:33 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x232d 0x2325
22:12:34 <HackEgo> Segmentation fault
22:12:52 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x232d 0x2335
22:12:53 <HackEgo> ​⌭⌮⌯ \ ⌰⌱⌲⌳⌴⌵
22:13:00 <\oren\> boo
22:18:59 <\oren\> I'm trying to fill in any remaining gaps in the blocks I have completed
22:23:05 <int-e> `thanks new year
22:23:06 <HackEgo> Thanks, new year. Thew year.
22:24:04 <FireFly> `hello new year
22:24:06 <HackEgo> Hello
22:24:19 <FireFly> oh.
22:24:20 <FireFly> `which hello
22:24:22 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/hello
22:24:41 <FireFly> `cat bin/hello
22:24:43 <HackEgo> echo Hello
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22:38:42 <tswett> Hmm.
22:38:48 <tswett> `thanks Mark Rosewater
22:38:49 <HackEgo> Thanks, Mark Rosewater. Thark Rosewater.
22:39:00 <tswett> `thanks thanks
22:39:01 <HackEgo> Thanks, thanks. Thanks.
22:39:15 <tswett> `? pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism
22:39:17 <HackEgo> pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:39:19 <tswett> Er.
22:39:23 <tswett> `thanks pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism
22:39:24 <HackEgo> Thanks, pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism. Theudopseudohypoparathyroidism.
22:39:28 <tswett> `thanks ?
22:39:29 <HackEgo> Thanks, ?. T.
22:39:36 <tswett> Interesting, that one.
22:39:39 <tswett> `thanks
22:39:43 <HackEgo> Thanks, neia. Theia.
22:39:49 <tswett> Come again?
22:39:50 <tswett> `thanks
22:39:52 <HackEgo> Thanks, iloquallc. Thiloquallc.
22:39:59 <tswett> `cat bin/thanks
22:40:00 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/perl -CSDA \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
22:40:08 <tswett> I see.
22:40:13 <tswett> `run thanks ''
22:40:16 <HackEgo> Thanks, aring. Tharing.
22:40:30 <tswett> `run thanks ' '
22:40:31 <HackEgo> Thanks, . .
22:40:57 <tswett> `thanks hrmnzr
22:40:59 <HackEgo> Thanks, hrmnzr. Trmnzr.
22:41:05 <tswett> `thanks FBI
22:41:06 <HackEgo> Thanks, FBI. ThI.
22:41:36 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:42:19 <tswett> `thanks Schrödinger
22:42:20 <HackEgo> Thanks, Schrödinger. Thinger.
22:43:44 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:44:58 <tswett> `thanks rødgrød med fløde
22:45:00 <HackEgo> Thanks, rødgrød med fløde. Thed fløde.
22:45:15 <int-e> ö is an interesting consonant...
22:45:54 <tswett> Sure is.
22:46:50 <tswett> `thanks KILL A PUPPY EVERY DAY.
22:47:28 <tswett> Is `evil still up?
22:47:29 <tswett> `evil
22:47:31 <HackEgo> KILL A PUPPY EVERY DAY.
22:47:33 <tswett> Sure is.
22:47:54 <tswett> `run thanks $(loudly Steve)
22:47:56 <HackEgo> Thanks, Steve. Theve.
22:48:30 <tswett> `run loudly $(thanks $(loudly Steve))
22:48:32 <HackEgo> Thanks,
22:48:41 <tswett> `run loudly $(loudly $(thanks $(loudly Steve)))
22:48:43 <HackEgo> 04,09T09,04h04,09a09,04n04,09k09,04s04,09,
22:48:50 <tswett> \o/
22:49:47 <int-e> `cat bin/evil
22:49:48 <HackEgo> cat "$(find evil -type f | shuf -n1)" | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
22:50:38 <int-e> `` echo ß | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
22:50:39 <HackEgo> ​ß
22:50:50 <int-e> `` echo ä | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
22:50:51 <HackEgo> ​ä
22:51:17 <int-e> `locale
22:54:12 <b_jonas> ``` locale
22:54:14 <b_jonas> `` locaqle
22:54:15 <HackEgo> bash: locaqle: command not found
22:54:16 <b_jonas> `` locale
22:58:39 <hppavilion[1]> I'm designing a programming language for the xkcd phone
22:58:48 <hppavilion[1]> http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=113269
23:02:14 -!- jaboja has joined.
23:05:20 <\oren\> `` echo lo | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
23:05:21 <HackEgo> LO
23:05:39 <\oren\> ok so it isn't that
23:06:39 -!- Welo has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:09:44 <\oren\> `` loudly 素晴らしい
23:09:45 <HackEgo>
23:09:51 <\oren\> AAUAUAAUAUA
23:14:41 <Melvar> `cat bin/loudly
23:14:42 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in inp)
23:16:07 <Melvar> `which python3
23:16:08 <HackEgo> No output.
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23:21:43 <Taneb> Is a UTM that only runs when its being watched Turing complete?
23:23:14 <oerjan> would seem to require a watcher with unbounded lifespan hth
23:30:42 <b_jonas> Taneb: yes
23:30:47 <b_jonas> it's still Turing complete
23:37:12 <\oren\> just pass down a tradition of watching the UTM in your family
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23:42:58 <Elronnd> `which python
23:43:00 <HackEgo> ​/usr/bin/python
23:43:24 <b_jonas> Only the observable part of the behavior matters.
23:47:53 <fizzie> "Be officially informed that we have arrested a diplomat [..] with your consignment that contains huge amount of money [..] The diplomat claims that you are DEATH, therefore your consignment is being diverted [..]"
23:48:08 <fizzie> I hope I'm not DEATH.
23:49:51 <oerjan> are you DESTROYER OF WORLDS?
23:50:46 <fizzie> Is that the sort of thing you know you are if you are?
23:51:07 <oerjan> good question.
23:58:29 <b_jonas> fungot, would you know that you are destroyer of worlds if you were?
23:58:29 <fungot> b_jonas: heh to just pop something from the cvs, and irc protocols. distributing loadable modules and drivers as source and still having them for normal grouping)
23:59:35 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:00:12 <b_jonas> fungot: loadable bus drivers?
00:00:13 <fungot> b_jonas: what's slides? fnord/ down etc... and not if... let x be the cdr then...
00:00:27 <b_jonas> fungot: you dropped your parenthesis somehwere
00:00:27 <fungot> b_jonas: and what you wrote down. so, you couldn't count various calls at the same time
00:00:34 <b_jonas> fungot: three?
00:00:34 <fungot> b_jonas: in the subject yet... and i'm failing to see the function fizzie pasted "?" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord....
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00:14:37 <Melvar> `` sed -ire 's/inp\)$/unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))' bin/loudly
00:14:38 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 101: unterminated `s' command
00:14:48 <Melvar> `` sed -ire 's/inp\)$/unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))/' bin/loudly
00:14:49 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 102: Unmatched ) or \)
00:16:31 <Melvar> `` sed -ire 's/inp\)$/unicode\(inp, locale.nl_langinfo\(locale.CODESET\)\)\).encode\(locale.nl_langinfo\(locale.CODESET\)\)/' bin/loudly
00:16:32 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 111: Unmatched ) or \)
00:16:47 <Melvar> wut.
00:17:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:18:53 <int-e> `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -e 's/(/)/g'
00:18:54 <HackEgo> ​))))))))
00:19:19 <int-e> `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -re 's/\(/)/g'
00:19:20 <HackEgo> ​))))))))
00:19:22 <int-e> hmm
00:19:38 <int-e> `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -re 's/\(/\)/g'
00:19:39 <HackEgo> ​))))))))
00:20:49 <fizzie> That's funny, an unmatched \( seems to be fine.
00:21:05 <int-e> `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -re 's/\)/\(/g'
00:21:06 <HackEgo> ​((((((((
00:21:12 <int-e> `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -e 's/\)/\(/g'
00:21:13 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 9: Unmatched ) or \)
00:21:17 <int-e> `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -e 's/\(/\(/g'
00:21:18 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 9: Unmatched ( or \(
00:21:23 <int-e> not really...
00:21:36 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't notice the -r bit.
00:21:43 <fizzie> I don't generally sed -r.
00:23:34 <oerjan> `cat bin/loudly
00:23:35 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in inp)
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00:32:18 <oerjan> `` sed -ie 's/inp\)$/unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))/' bin/loudly
00:32:20 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 102: Unmatched ) or \)
00:32:42 <oerjan> hmph
00:32:59 <oerjan> `` sed -ie 's/inp[)]$/unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))/' bin/loudly
00:33:01 <HackEgo> No output.
00:33:06 <oerjan> `cat bin/loudly
00:33:07 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))
00:33:22 <oerjan> `loudly Rødgrød med fløde
00:33:24 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/loudly", line 5, in <module> \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET)) \ NameError: name 'locale' is not defined
00:33:33 <oerjan> hah
00:33:41 <oerjan> `revert
00:33:49 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:35:13 <oerjan> hm
00:35:17 <oerjan> `revert
00:35:21 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:35:51 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/itertools/itertools, locale/' bin/loudly
00:35:54 <HackEgo> No output.
00:35:59 <oerjan> `loudly Rødgrød med fløde
00:36:01 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/loudly", line 4, in <module> \ cyc = itertools, locale.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'cycle'
00:36:09 <oerjan> ff
00:36:56 <oerjan> `revert 6483
00:36:59 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:37:06 <oerjan> `cat bin/loudly
00:37:08 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in inp)
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00:37:25 <oerjan> Melvar: WHATEVER
00:38:12 <oerjan> oh duh
00:38:34 <oerjan> `revert 6486
00:38:36 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:38:53 <oerjan> `` sed -i '2s/itertools/itertools, locale/' bin/loudly
00:38:56 <HackEgo> No output.
00:39:02 <oerjan> `loudly Rødgrød med fløde
00:39:03 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/loudly", line 5, in <module> \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET)) \ UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 1: ordinal not in range(128)
00:39:30 <oerjan> `revert 6483
00:39:33 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:41:01 <oerjan> Melvar: YOUR CODE IS NOT WORKING TDNH
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01:02:51 <\oren\> OH GOD DAMN IT
01:04:33 <oerjan> hi \oren\
01:04:47 <oerjan> under attack by murphy's law?
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01:07:39 <\oren\> yeaj
01:08:01 <\oren\> I just lost to Dark Link again
01:11:51 <\oren\> sheik is not good against Dark Link
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01:42:21 <tswett> `loudly ooo
01:42:23 <HackEgo> ooo
01:42:29 <tswett> `loudly Rødgrød med fløde
01:42:30 <HackEgo> Rdgrd med flde
01:42:36 <Elronnd> o
01:42:39 <Elronnd> o
01:42:43 * tswett claps.
01:42:52 <Elronnd> oooo
01:42:59 <Elronnd> oooo
01:43:03 <Elronnd> oooo
01:43:08 <Elronnd> oooo
01:43:15 <oerjan> did Elronnd get stuck in a loop
01:43:32 <tswett> That's uncomputable.
01:43:39 <oerjan> darn
01:43:44 <Elronnd> insufficient data cannot compute
01:43:49 <tswett> Well... uncomputable in general. Elronnd might be really simple.
01:43:51 <ais523> uncomputable /in general/
01:43:58 <ais523> bleh, you beat me to the correction
01:44:05 <oerjan> `loudly Rødgrød med fløde
01:44:06 <HackEgo> Rdgrd med flde
01:44:18 <tswett> `loudly aaaaaaaaaaaaa
01:44:19 <HackEgo> aaaaaaaaaaaaa
01:44:23 <tswett> `loudly aaaaaaaaaaaaä
01:44:24 <HackEgo> aaaaaaaaaaaa
01:44:37 <Elronnd> `lskdfjalsdkjf
01:44:38 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lskdfjalsdkjf: not found
01:44:40 <tswett> `loudly é
01:44:42 <HackEgo>
01:44:53 <Elronnd> `loudly ÒÓ
01:44:54 <HackEgo>
01:45:02 <tswett> `run loudly é | unidecode
01:45:04 <HackEgo> ​ \ close failed in file object destructor: \ sys.excepthook is missing \ lost sys.stderr
01:45:11 <Elronnd> `loudly ò_Ó
01:45:13 <HackEgo> _
01:45:18 <Elronnd> `loudly ò_Ó | unicode
01:45:19 <HackEgo> _ | unicode
01:45:25 <Elronnd> `loudly ò_Ó | uniencode
01:45:26 <HackEgo> _ | uniencode
01:45:50 <tswett> `echo * | xargs rm
01:45:51 <HackEgo> ​* | xargs rm
01:46:04 <tswett> `echo one; echo two; echo three
01:46:05 <HackEgo> one; echo two; echo three
01:50:37 <tswett> `run loudly ë | loudly
01:50:39 <HackEgo> 04,0909,04
01:50:48 <tswett> `run loudly ë | loudly | loudly
01:50:49 <HackEgo> 04,0909,04004,09409,04,04,09009,04904,09,
01:50:53 <tswett> `run loudly ë | loudly | loudly | loudly
01:50:54 <HackEgo> 04,0909,04004,09409,04,04,09009,04904,09,
01:51:00 <tswett> `run loudly ë | loudly | loudly | loudly | loudly
01:51:03 <HackEgo> 04,0909,04004,09409,04,04,09009,04904,09,
01:51:14 <tswett> Fixed point!
01:51:26 <tswett> `run loudly é > 'loudly é'
01:51:30 <HackEgo> No output.
01:51:35 <tswett> `run unidecode < 'loudly é'
01:51:37 <HackEgo> No output.
01:51:45 <tswett> `run echo 'loudly é'
01:51:46 <HackEgo> loudly é
01:51:52 <tswett> `run cat 'loudly é'
01:51:54 <HackEgo>
01:52:08 <tswett> `run unidecode $(cat 'loudly é')
01:52:10 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unidecode", line 4, in <module> \ s = u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ File "/usr/lib/python2.7/encodings/utf_8.py", line 16, in decode \ return codecs.utf_8_decode(input, err
01:52:22 <tswett> ¿
02:00:09 <Elronnd> `'loudly ó'
02:00:10 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 'loudly: not found
02:00:14 <Elronnd> `loudly ó
02:00:15 <HackEgo>
02:00:18 <Elronnd> `loudly 'ó'
02:00:19 <HackEgo> ''
02:12:50 <FireFly> `lodly hi
02:12:51 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lodly: not found
02:12:51 <FireFly> `loudly hi
02:12:52 <HackEgo> hi
02:15:44 <hppavilion[1]> `quietly bye
02:15:45 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quietly: not found
02:15:47 <hppavilion[1]> ...
02:15:49 <hppavilion[1]> -_-
02:15:51 <hppavilion[1]> You have failed me
02:16:42 <ais523> `` cat 'echo' > /bin/quietly
02:16:43 <HackEgo> bash: /bin/quietly: Read-only file system
02:16:47 <ais523> err
02:16:49 <ais523> `` cat 'echo' > bin/quietly
02:16:51 <HackEgo> cat: echo: No such file or directory
02:16:58 <ais523> `` echo 'echo' > bin/quietly
02:17:01 <HackEgo> No output.
02:17:03 <ais523> `` chmod a+x bin/quietly
02:17:06 <HackEgo> No output.
02:17:08 <ais523> `quietly test
02:17:09 <HackEgo> No output.
02:17:11 <ais523> hmm
02:17:19 <ais523> `` echo 'echo " "' > bin/quietly
02:17:21 <ais523> `quietly test
02:17:22 <HackEgo> No output.
02:17:23 <HackEgo> No output.
02:17:33 <ais523> looks like I need an actual character there
02:17:40 <ais523> `` printf 'echo "\xa0"' > bin/quietly
02:17:42 <HackEgo> No output.
02:17:44 <ais523> `quietly test
02:17:45 <HackEgo>
02:17:57 <ais523> how misencoded is /that/?
02:18:02 <ais523> `` printf 'echo "\xc2\xa0"' > bin/quietly
02:18:04 <HackEgo> No output.
02:18:07 <ais523> `quietly test
02:18:08 <HackEgo> ​ 
02:18:10 <ais523> there we go
02:18:32 * ais523 tries to work out how HackEgo and/or Konversation deduced three characters of output from a single \xa0
02:18:48 <ais523> `unidecode ​
02:18:50 <HackEgo> U+00E2 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH CIRCUMFLEX \ UTF-8: c3 a2 UTF-16BE: 00e2 Decimal: &#226; \ â (Â) \ Uppercase: U+00C2 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: 0061 0302 \ \ U+0080 <control> \ UTF-8: c2 80 UTF-16BE: 0080 Decimal: &#128; \ € \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \
02:22:14 <oerjan> ais523: because HackEgo prepends an zero-width space
02:22:52 <ais523> aha, and the utf-8 zero width space got interpreted as latin-1 because the comment as a whole wasn't valid utf-8?
02:22:57 <oerjan> yeah
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03:44:33 <tswett> @botsnack
03:44:34 <lambdabot> :)
03:44:56 <tswett> @botsnake
03:44:56 <lambdabot> :)
03:45:16 <tswett> I wonder.
03:45:18 <tswett> @hens
03:45:18 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: oeis help
03:45:35 <tswett> @nixon
03:45:35 <lambdabot> Voters quickly forget what a man says.
03:45:47 <tswett> Wait, that's actually a command?
03:45:51 <tswett> @vixen
03:45:52 <lambdabot> The Chinese use two brush strokes to write the word 'crisis.' One brush stroke stands for danger; the other for opportunity. In a crisis, be aware of the danger - but recognize the opportunity.
03:46:00 <tswett> @vixen
03:46:01 <lambdabot> You have to face the fact that whole problem is really the blacks. The key is to divise a system that reconizes this while not appearing to...
03:46:13 <tswett> Is @vixen correcting to @nixon?
03:46:16 <tswett> @help vixen
03:46:16 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
03:46:19 <tswett> @help nixon
03:46:19 <lambdabot> Richard Nixon's finest.
03:46:31 <tswett> @vixen Like, this is just going to give me a Nixon quote or whatever?
03:46:31 <lambdabot> A man who has never lost himself in a cause bigger than himself has missed one of life's mountaintop experiences. Only in losing himself does he find himself. Only then does he discover all the latent strengths he never knew he had and which otherwise would have remained dormant.
03:46:42 <tswett> @feet
03:46:43 <lambdabot> Say again?
03:46:50 <tswett> @feet Say what again?
03:46:50 <lambdabot> $4y whAt AG4In?
03:46:58 <tswett> @pulp
03:46:58 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: pl help
03:48:18 <oerjan> @prawn
03:48:19 <lambdabot> It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob.
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03:49:12 <tswett> @crawl
03:49:13 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
03:49:18 <tswett> @help prawn
03:49:19 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
03:49:34 <tswett> @prawn
03:49:34 <lambdabot> It is here that my cheap workforce of trained iguanas will work
03:49:34 <lambdabot> night and day to make our shoes to my exacting specifications!
03:49:40 <tswett> @prawn Can I give input here?
03:49:40 <lambdabot> Pinky, I am in considerable pain.
03:49:52 <tswett> Ooh. I think I've figured out what it is.
03:49:56 <oerjan> darn
03:50:02 <tswett> @brian
03:50:02 <lambdabot> Promise me something, Pinky. Never breed.
03:50:10 <tswett> @plain
03:50:10 <lambdabot> It is here that my cheap workforce of trained iguanas will work
03:50:11 <lambdabot> night and day to make our shoes to my exacting specifications!
03:50:23 <tswett> @braille
03:50:24 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
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03:56:56 <boily> ^botsnack
03:56:56 <fungot> Oh nom nom nom!
03:57:11 <shachaf> boilysnack
04:03:57 <boily> snarf chew chew garble ^^
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04:45:13 <hppavilion[1]> What happens when you do the Surreals with a left, right, and middle?
04:45:18 <hppavilion[1]> 0 = {||}
04:45:24 <hppavilion[1]> Or four corners?
04:45:31 <hppavilion[1]> 0 = {--|--}
04:45:42 <boily> tie-fighter surreals.
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06:09:34 <\oren\> I BEAT GANON
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06:27:27 <coppro> \oren\: congrats
06:27:28 <coppro> which game?
06:28:24 <\oren\> Hyrule Warriors
06:31:31 <coppro> ah
06:31:40 <coppro> I learned to speedrun super mario galaxy today
06:36:25 <\oren\> cool
06:36:37 <\oren\> does it involve hidden warpzones
06:36:42 <pikhq> Gonna show your mad skillz at AGDQ tomorrow?
06:40:39 <coppro> \oren\: nope
06:40:41 <coppro> pikhq: that's the plan
06:40:49 <coppro> I'm going to kill miles and take his power
06:41:13 <pikhq> Fabulous.
07:33:44 <hppavilion[1]> To make a lambda, we write a \ (because it kind of looks like the greek letter lambda if you squint hard enough)
07:33:54 <hppavilion[1]> - LYAH
07:35:50 <hppavilion[1]> For the record, I squinted really hard at a backslash to check and it does indeed resemble λ
07:45:39 <hppavilion[1]> <WassPord> I'm a big fan of 50 Cent. Or, as he's called in Zimbabwe, Four hundred million dollars.
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08:17:07 <hppavilion[1]> Just defined function composition for LispRule (a language supported by λ-Nomic): http://pastebin.com/puNcfqiq
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10:05:56 <hppavilion[1]> IDEA TIME
10:06:29 <hppavilion[1]> Classical Programming: Like functional programming, but classes instead. Entire language is based around creating subclasses and subclassing them
10:06:40 <hppavilion[1]> This is not a language feature; it is the language itself.
10:07:37 <hppavilion[1]> And it's not a way of holding functions in an object; the functions are just there to give the class a body. The language is really just about the classes and operating on them.
10:07:50 <hppavilion[1]> It's not OO, because there aren't objects involved; it's just classes
10:08:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: This part of the topic was the first added in 2016 | The international hub for magic gathering and deployment. | Effi's finest fluffy waffles | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
10:11:17 <zzo38> OK, please do! Either invent such a thing or add to the list of ideas, or just try to figure out more and see if you can
10:11:31 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: That's what I was about to do xD
10:11:35 <zzo38> Idea of kind of custom duel deck of Magic: the Gathering cards: Urza vs Mishra, Old vs New, Phyrexian vs Eldrazi, Even Costs vs Odd Costs, West vs East, North vs South, Simplicity vs Complexity.
10:11:48 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Yes, I hope you do; I would want to see it too.
10:12:14 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Eldritch Abominations vs Bunnies
10:13:31 <zzo38> OK, that is another one. If some cards that should be use do not exist officially, make up some custom cards; same apply to all of these custom duel decks though
10:14:18 <hppavilion[1]> What happens when you compose the SYA with itself?
10:14:59 <zzo38> "SYA" meaning what?
10:15:06 <hppavilion[1]> SYA**2("2+2*3/6") -> ?
10:15:12 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Shunting-Yard Algorithm
10:15:37 <hppavilion[1]> The thingy for converting from infix to goofix
10:15:41 <hppavilion[1]> *goodfix
10:15:44 <hppavilion[1]> I mean postfix
10:16:26 <hppavilion[1]> GOOFIX NOTATION
10:16:35 <hppavilion[1]> 2+2*... ew.
10:17:05 <zzo38> O, that is what it is. Yes I have heard of that algorithm
10:17:30 <hppavilion[1]> A converter from infix to goofix in python: def in2goo(infix): return infix[:5]+'... ew.'
10:18:06 <hppavilion[1]> Now that I think about it, it probably just crashes xD
10:18:38 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah, it must just crash
10:20:35 <zzo38> I read the description in Wikipedia, and I am not sure why it should crash.
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11:02:05 <b_jonas> `? goofix
11:02:08 <HackEgo> goofix? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:03:05 <b_jonas> `learn Goofix is an antropomorphic canine arithmetic notation.
11:03:08 <HackEgo> Learned 'goofix': Goofix is an antropomorphic canine arithmetic notation.
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11:14:08 <zzo38> b_jonas: What kind of custom duel deck you like to try to make up? (Since it is duel deck, restrictions about deck size and card duplicates can be ignored if it is deemed worthwhile)
11:16:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: there were some ideas in http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/arcana/1560
11:20:17 <zzo38> OK, but I mean you
11:21:35 <b_jonas> I don't know really. I usually build a deck only for myself, trying to beat an entire metagame of many decks (not that I manage, but that's the goal), rather than a duel
11:29:42 <b_jonas> If I built a deck only against myself, it would be weak and one-sided because it wouldn't defend against strategies other players use.
11:29:46 <b_jonas> I don't think it would be good.
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11:34:24 <zzo38> There should need to be enough interactions between them, whether or not they are good for other formats
11:38:37 <b_jonas> by the way, I was wondering if a "bicubic" casual format could work: namely two players each build half of a cube, then after they comitted to the card pool in their half, the list of cards is revealed, the two are merged, and 4 to 8 players use some sealed deck or draft variants to build decks and sideboards from that pool.
11:43:56 <b_jonas> the two players take the same number of cards, each one can put at most 2 copies of any card, and in total among the two, there should be 100 timed the number of players cards for a sealed deck, and much less than that for most drafts
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11:45:50 <zzo38> OK
11:46:28 <zzo38> That seem it can work I suppose, if you have the ban list and so on still
11:46:47 <Melvar> `` sed -ie 's/inp[)]$/unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding())/' -e '2s/$/, locale' bin/loudly;
11:46:48 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 13: unterminated `s' command
11:47:10 <Melvar> `cat bin/loudly
11:47:11 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in inp)
11:47:17 <Melvar> `` sed -ie 's/inp[)]$/unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding())/' -e '2s/$/, locale/' bin/loudly;
11:47:20 <HackEgo> sed: can't read s/inp[)]$/unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding())/: No such file or directory
11:47:38 <Melvar> Wat.
11:48:00 <Melvar> Oh. -i[SUFFIX].
11:48:19 <Melvar> `` sed -i -e 's/inp[)]$/unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding())/' -e '2s/$/, locale/' bin/loudly
11:48:38 <HackEgo> No output.
11:48:43 <Melvar> `cat bin/loudly
11:48:44 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools, locale, locale \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding())
11:48:52 <Melvar> `loudly föo
11:48:54 <HackEgo> föo
11:48:59 <int-e> urgh, and that has been the problem all this time... missed it
11:49:17 <int-e> (using -i the wrong way)
11:49:37 <Melvar> Well it would have worked as long as there was only one script.
11:49:53 <int-e> well, you had -ire there...
11:50:11 <int-e> and the -r was kind of important
11:50:22 <Melvar> Ah. Yeah.
11:50:27 <Melvar> `loudly 素晴らしい
11:50:29 <HackEgo>
11:51:23 <Melvar> \oren\: ↑ Fixed it.
11:51:30 <Melvar> (Finally.)
11:54:21 <Melvar> ``` loudly foo
11:54:22 <HackEgo> foo
11:54:27 <Melvar> ``` loudly föo
11:54:28 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/loudly", line 5, in <module> \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding()) \ UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 1: ordinal not in range(128)
11:55:14 <Melvar> Exactly as expected. ∑:3
12:00:55 <b_jonas> Sure, ban list is fine, and you'd need normal limited deck-building rules: at least 40 cards in main deck, all the rest of your picks is sideboard, as many basic lands as you want.
12:01:35 <\oren\> yay!
12:03:13 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, although you should say "as many conventional basic lands as you want", since you aren't allowed to add nonconventional basic lands unless available in your card pool (whether draft or sealed)
12:04:11 <b_jonas> yes yes
12:04:14 <b_jonas> basic basic lands
12:04:22 <zzo38> Two-players limited format is possible such as Solomon draft, although other formats are also possible with two players
12:04:39 <b_jonas> since there will about to be six different extra basic lands very soon
12:04:43 <b_jonas> there's already five
12:04:49 <zzo38> I prefer the term "conventional basic lands"
12:05:03 <zzo38> (I don't know if an official term exists though)
12:05:04 <b_jonas> ok, make it conventional basic lands
12:11:59 <b_jonas> also, AGDQ starts very soon
12:12:00 <haavard> Colored basic lands?
12:14:33 <b_jonas> haavard: um, no. they're all colorless. the rat thing doesn't count because it's not a land.
12:14:51 <haavard> Hm, that's true
12:15:02 <haavard> Conventional basics it is
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12:21:03 <int-e> @metar lowi
12:21:03 <lambdabot> LOWI 031150Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW006 SCT080 05/02 Q1008 R08/29//95 NOSIG
12:21:46 <int-e> (and a bit of snow on the ground... melting)
12:23:43 <b_jonas> int-e: yep
12:23:50 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
12:23:51 <lambdabot> EGLL 031150Z AUTO 15018KT 9999 -RA OVC010/// //////TCU 09/08 Q0989 BECMG RA
12:23:53 <b_jonas> there was snow here too two days abo
12:23:55 <b_jonas> ago
12:24:18 <fizzie> I think I dreamed there was snow here, but there hasn't been any.
12:27:31 <haavard> How do you decode that information? I assume it's easier than it looks..
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12:32:17 <fizzie> At airport EGLL, the 03'th day of the month, 11:50 UTC, don't know about AUTO, wind direction 150 degrees and speed 18 knots, visibility "good", light (-) rain (RA) but increasing (BECMG RA), overcast cloud cover at 10 hundred feet, buncha weird slashes, temperature 9 degrees and dew point 8, barometric pressure 989 hectopascals.
12:33:00 <fizzie> The formatting varies a bit between airports.
12:33:34 <fizzie> AUTO is apparently "no humans were harmed^Winvolved during the production of this report".
12:36:06 <int-e> very humid...
12:37:46 <fizzie> This is the kind of weather I was expecting when we moved here.
12:38:12 <b_jonas> hmm
12:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> do finns seek humidity because it reminds them of a sauna
12:38:29 <b_jonas> has anyone made an esolang yet where the source code masquarades as metar output lines?
12:39:15 <int-e> that's too metar
12:42:22 <haavard> @metar enzv
12:42:23 <lambdabot> ENZV 031220Z 11013KT 9999 FEW048 01/M09 Q1014 TEMPO 12022G32KT
12:42:42 <Phantom_Hoover> lol
12:42:56 <Phantom_Hoover> the intel 4004 had more general-purpose registers than x86-32
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12:54:28 <fizzie> Quite a bit "less general-purpose", though.
13:02:46 <myname> A whole IDE built in a browser sounds ridiculous until you try using a whole IDE built in Java.
13:03:32 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: the original 386 didn't have any general purpose registers. it was the later SSE2 extension that added those to the x86_32 arch. in the original 386, you had to do all the general purpose arithmetic in the painfully small (32 bit sized) index registers, or in the limited floating point registers.
13:05:51 <b_jonas> That is, by the way, also the situation in contemporary Linux x86_64 kernels in the main kernel outside of kernel threads, because for some historical compatibility nonsense,
13:06:57 <b_jonas> the kernel shies away from using the general purpose registers, for using them would introduce SEVERAL CYCLES OF PRECIOUS TASK SWITCH PENALTY each time you switch to an x86_32 task compiled in an obsolate way so it itself doesn't use those general purpose registers.
13:07:02 <b_jonas> I'm SERIOUS!
13:08:01 <b_jonas> The kernel doesn't use the xmm register, because if it did, then every time there's a task switch, the cpu would have to automatically save and restore those registers, even if one of those processes doesn't use them.
13:08:12 <b_jonas> It's just hilarious, and all for the bad historical reasons.
13:08:46 <b_jonas> And this isn't even really imposed by the cpu. The kernel could break this nonsense any time if the Linux developers just so willed to switch a switch.
13:09:01 <b_jonas> But they're afraid of traditions and microbenchmarks and stuff like that making them look bad.
13:10:18 <b_jonas> It doesn't matter that most of the actual computations of the kernel could be done much faster by the occasional use of those xmm registers, if they just made some trivial changes in the kernel compilation options and the compiler to use them.
13:10:45 <b_jonas> Because then you'd have to load or store SEVERAL WORDS FROM THE MEMORY EACH (rare case) TASK SWITCH and oh look how bad that would make us look like oh the pain!
13:10:55 <b_jonas> These kernel guys are sissies.
13:12:27 <fizzie> If it's that trivial to do, surely someone has done it and demonstrated the real-world gains from this vague "much faster" execution of "most of the actual computations of the kernel" in a thing you could refer to?
13:12:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: well, it's not _that_ trivial. it would need some changes in the compiler.
13:13:13 <b_jonas> and I hope someone has actually tried it, or else I'm misunderstanding something so much that it's obvious to real kernel people why it wouldn't work.
13:13:35 <b_jonas> and mind you, you can put the heavy computation (like crypto) into kernel threads, and then those can use the xmm.
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13:49:23 <\oren\> I prefer the 6502 it has 256 general purpose registers.
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13:57:10 <int-e> is that one of the processors with a special addressing mode for the first 256 bytes of memory?
13:57:23 <\oren\> yup
13:57:57 <\oren\> specifically it can do things like increment a given byte in the zero page
13:58:49 <\oren\> or indirectly index a byte in memory by an address in zero page
13:59:03 <\oren\> so they sort of act like general purpose registers
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14:31:11 <lifthrasiir> okay, I'll rewrite the whole thing in Rust when Unison's process.py reaches 2000 lines of code
14:31:21 <lifthrasiir> it is becoming harder to keep up with
14:32:06 <izabera> https://arin.ga/LttQ8b/raw is this esoteric?
14:32:47 <lifthrasiir> not really?
14:32:58 <haavard> Looks like a roman numerals parser
14:33:33 <izabera> yep but it's in sed <.<
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16:10:14 <boily> `wisdom
16:10:24 <HackEgo> phantom___hoover/Phantom___Hoover sucks at ghosting himself.
16:19:09 <b_jonas> what
16:20:21 <FireFly> `wisdom
16:20:23 <HackEgo> drone/drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
16:22:58 -!- dcentral has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
16:23:28 <Melvar> `wisdom
16:23:30 <HackEgo> ethanol/Ethanol is a Group 1 carcinogenic substance since 1988.
16:26:15 <b_jonas> `? avatar
16:26:16 <HackEgo> avatar? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:33:13 <int-e> `wisdom
16:33:15 <HackEgo> zimbabwe/olsner's desk points zimbabwards. it is highly dependent on tswett's michiganic orientation.
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16:49:54 <coppro> woot agdq!
16:50:11 <b_jonas> coppro: wood
16:50:28 <b_jonas> there's GTA and mario maker and super monkey ball and lots of games
16:51:57 <boily> agdq?
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16:54:17 <coppro> boily: gamesdonequick.com
16:54:53 <b_jonas> `? agdq
16:54:55 <HackEgo> agdq? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:55:16 <b_jonas> `learn AGDQ is Awesome Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity
16:55:21 <b_jonas> `learn SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity
16:55:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'agdq': AGDQ is Awesome Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity
16:55:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'sgdq': SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity
16:55:29 <b_jonas> oh wait, those need urls
16:56:13 <b_jonas> `learn AGDQ is Awesome Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity ever winter, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/
16:56:18 <HackEgo> Learned 'agdq': AGDQ is Awesome Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity ever winter, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/
16:56:23 <b_jonas> `learn SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity ever summer, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/
16:56:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'sgdq': SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity ever summer, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/
16:57:14 <izabera> laggy bot
16:57:18 <izabera> spammy user
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17:21:13 <quintopia> helloily
17:22:59 <boily> quinthellopiaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
17:23:55 <quintopia> what do?
17:25:21 <boily> last day of vacation! but I had a turkey tomato mayo bagel.
17:25:40 <boily> are you atlantaing?
17:26:01 <b_jonas> yep
17:26:04 <b_jonas> last day
17:26:05 <b_jonas> so sad
17:27:35 <quintopia> i am
17:27:50 <quintopia> the weather finally colded slightly
17:27:57 <quintopia> but its nice out
17:28:14 <quintopia> do you want to game a game?
17:28:52 <boily> I'm cubing with the bro. want to join the server?
17:30:39 <coppro> rubik's cubes?
17:30:44 <coppro> on a server?
17:42:53 <quintopia> i dont have that game
17:55:28 <ais523> ugh, the very worst level in Enigma is a rubik's cube simulator
17:55:37 <ais523> the reason why it's so bad is that it also has reverse floor and swamp and abyss
17:55:46 <ais523> stick to one puzzle at a time, people!
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17:59:15 <ais523> oh wow, 6% in metroid prime 2 is now faster single-segment than 100%
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18:06:44 <coppro> ais523: yeah
18:07:02 <coppro> the discovery of MBI in Sanctuary was huge
18:07:18 <ais523> oh, don't have to smuggle it all the way from the other end of the map
18:07:28 <ais523> now I sort-of want to see a "low% without item loss skip"
18:10:05 <coppro> it's also way way easier to do now, because you don't have to use IS which means no lightshow
18:10:26 <coppro> (it was discovered that you don't need IS to get MBI; you just need to activate a cannon without a properly loaded room)
18:10:39 <ais523> for some reason I thought the hardest part was amber translator skip
18:11:24 <coppro> are you talking about sanddigger or something else?
18:12:13 <ais523> no, it's some really hard wallcrawl to get around one gate, I forget exactly where but IIRC it's between one of the main areas and temple grounds
18:12:14 <ais523> in that direction
18:12:19 <coppro> oh, hive dash?
18:12:22 <ais523> the hard part is the getting OoB in the first place
18:12:22 <ais523> yep
18:12:24 <ais523> I think
18:12:29 <coppro> you can actually avoid that now thanks to the MBI
18:12:39 <coppro> I dunno if it's faster though
18:14:29 <coppro> hive dash is still not grand abyss, though
18:15:50 <ais523> and you need screw attack to do the walljumps to the final boss, right?
18:17:19 <ais523> thus grand abyss is in every non-grapple-beam category
18:17:34 <coppro> yes
18:17:41 <ais523> (the skip, that is; the room is in every category full stop)
18:18:36 <coppro> did you hear about the Wii U trilogy edition of Prime 3, btw?
18:18:44 <ais523> no
18:19:00 <ais523> also I don't have a Wii U so it doesn't interest me that much, and I'd be shocked if they hadn't patched all the fun out ;-)
18:19:18 <coppro> despite having all of the trilogy "fixes" which ruin many speed tricks, it is faster in some (can't remember if all) categories than the original because of the improved loading times
18:19:30 <coppro> that's how bad loading is on Prime 3 T_T
18:20:10 <ais523> I thought the only speed trick that was patched out between corruption and trilogy3 was hazard shield skip
18:20:23 <coppro> no, they changed a number of small things
18:20:46 <ais523> (which is a ridiculous thing to patch out because it seems unlikely to make the game unwinnable, the hardest part to get past without hazard shield is the one where the skip happens)
18:22:02 <coppro> I'm excited for the Prime run Tuesday, it now includes IS
18:22:25 <coppro> oh man, if they could get Zoid on to talk about IS...
18:22:27 <b_jonas> I'm excited for the GTA3 run
18:22:35 <ais523> coppro: I doubt he knows what causes it
18:23:08 <coppro> ais523: me neither. But it would be funny to hear him wtf, especially if he's not seen it be used to grab Wave before
18:23:31 <coppro> ais523: speaking of which, I've been thinking of making a web application to store speedrun trick & routing information
18:23:45 <coppro> sort of like a domain-specific wiki, sort of in the style of M2K2
18:24:18 <ais523> coppro: TASvideos and SDA each have one of their own of those, and people hardly update them
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18:24:31 <b_jonas> Two years ago, AGDQ was a small event. Now it's huge.
18:24:57 <ais523> b_jonas: the first SGDQ was just held at one of the runners' houses
18:25:13 <coppro> ais523: but they're not domain-specific
18:25:16 <coppro> they're just generic wikis
18:25:33 <b_jonas> coppro: how would it differ from ordinary wikis?
18:25:53 <b_jonas> there are a few wiki sites for specific games
18:26:40 <coppro> mediawiki in particular has a lot of excess syntax that makes using it for domain-specific stuff a lot of work, because you're trying to store all the data in flat text files in the end
18:26:47 <coppro> and the text syntax is atrocious to boot
18:27:34 <coppro> I'm thinking something like defining a few types of objects (categories, routes, tricks, techniques, areas) and defining the links between them in a more consistent way
18:27:50 <coppro> possibly with an API as well
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18:29:15 <b_jonas> I like mediawiki syntax.
18:29:25 <coppro> it's nice for simple applications
18:29:35 <coppro> but complicated stuff is torture, especially anything involving tables or nested conditionals in templates
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18:31:29 <coppro> ais523: last line was <coppro> but complicated stuff...
18:31:46 <ais523> <coppro> possibly with an API as well
18:31:50 <ais523> last I saw
18:32:10 <coppro> 13:29:15 < b_jonas> I like mediawiki syntax.
18:32:10 <coppro> 13:29:25 < coppro> it's nice for simple applications
18:32:10 <coppro> 13:29:35 < coppro> but complicated stuff is torture, especially anything involving tables or nested conditionals in templates
18:32:37 <ais523> most wiki syntaxes are much worse at complex stuff than mediawiki's
18:32:46 <ais523> (this is not saying that mediawiki's is good)
18:33:26 <coppro> Yeah, but the idea would be to move complex stuff into the domain
18:33:44 <ais523> how much complex stuff is there?
18:34:08 <coppro> The relationships between things, especially
18:34:19 <coppro> also mediawiki sucks at video embedding
18:34:37 <coppro> which is part of the reason no one likes it for speedrunning: you need somewhere else to keep videos
18:38:44 <b_jonas> coppro: if you really want complex stuff, you can extend mediawiki. except that you need a little php so it's yucky and nobody does that.
18:38:55 <coppro> b_jonas: right
18:39:16 <coppro> so a domain-specific site that actually has data models for things is better than a wiki
18:39:56 <coppro> it comes with the standard domain-specific tradeoffs: it becomes easier to manipulate data, especially by scripts. You lose genericity and doing things not contemplated in advance is more difficult/impossible
18:40:02 <coppro> MediaWiki also lacks a good commenting system
18:40:29 <ais523> people say that, but I actually really like the : :: method of commenting
18:40:31 <ais523> so many people mess it up though
18:40:41 <ais523> so maybe the problem is that its commenting system is unintuitive
18:41:40 <coppro> you can't sort comments, you need to remember to add signatures...
18:42:42 <ais523> what do you mean by sorting comments?
18:42:49 <ais523> switching between threaded and threadless discussion?
18:42:51 <coppro> by date, for instance
18:42:59 <coppro> or sorting threads by most recent post
18:43:08 <coppro> the way to see the most recent comment is look at the hisotry
18:43:10 <coppro> *history
18:45:52 <coppro> hmm
18:46:01 <coppro> I like MIME types in concept but they leave something to be desired
18:48:35 <coppro> there really isn't a reasonable way to express the distinction between container and content, except quadratically
18:48:50 <coppro> or through other means, like Content-Encoding header in HTTP
18:48:56 <Phantom_Hoover> quadratically?
18:49:11 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: yes, like application/foo+json, application/foo+xml
18:49:22 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: one mime type for each container/content pair
18:49:23 <coppro> you need a different datatype for every format of the same data
18:49:33 <coppro> worse if you try to use wrappers like gzip
18:49:38 <coppro> do you add application/foo+json+gzip?
18:49:55 <coppro> since the spec requires them to be registered separately, it becomes unwieldy
18:52:50 <coppro> the notion of designing a "pure" hypertext API is quite interesting
19:02:47 <b_jonas> coppro: IMO, if people just made html websites reasonable so they contain actual content rather than fluff, and put a few class and id attributes in the right places, then we generally wouldn't need a separate fancy xml-based api for websites, because the normal html api would work fine.
19:02:55 <b_jonas> That would also make the ordinary html interface better.
19:03:07 <coppro> b_jonas: I disagree
19:03:08 <b_jonas> Also, people stop truncating lists of page numbers. That just doesn't make SENSE!
19:03:27 <b_jonas> coppro: of course, this isn't always true, sometimes you would still need multiple methods
19:03:34 <b_jonas> but I think for most of the cases it would work
19:03:43 <coppro> what I am toying with is using html as one content-type on the same routes
19:03:55 <coppro> so the "API" is not really a separate thing, just a way of rendering the same information
19:04:27 <b_jonas> seriously, what's with all those pages truncating lists of page number lists?
19:04:30 <coppro> HTML is, despite its name, not ideal for HTTP though
19:04:41 <coppro> for instance it only supports GET and POST unless you add Javascript
19:04:46 <b_jonas> are you getting paid for every extra click you get?
19:04:49 <coppro> so you end up with things like Ember
19:04:54 <coppro> lol no
19:05:13 <b_jonas> it appears even on pages with no ads
19:05:30 <b_jonas> or maybe it doesn't
19:05:33 <b_jonas> it's hard to tell
19:05:36 <b_jonas> I usually don't see the ads
19:05:42 <b_jonas> I have a strong enough mental filter
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19:06:26 <b_jonas> oh damn
19:06:43 <b_jonas> I started to pump this chair ball with air but I don't have the valce cap handy
19:06:48 <b_jonas> quick, I have to find it
19:06:56 <b_jonas> it's leaking slowly even while the pump's attached
19:07:34 <b_jonas> found it
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19:11:54 <vanila> agdq
19:12:08 <vanila> + printf is turing complete
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19:17:45 <coppro> b_jonas: the fact that HTML's idiosyncracies have made it incompatible with good web design is a shame
19:20:20 <b_jonas> And if the series is a commercial success, then they make two more bad movies or two more bad seasons of it, and since you're watching it in order, the bad parts are all that you remember, not the first seasons or movies that made it a success.
19:22:26 <coppro> b_jonas: context?
19:22:36 <coppro> ais523: you haven't done any web design, have you?
19:22:41 <coppro> site, not interface
19:23:02 <ais523> coppro: only a small amount, I wouldn't call myself good at it
19:23:27 <ais523> those job interview questions you linked me, I'd have had to look up details of CSS to answer (the algo side is easy, the webdev side less so for me)
19:23:37 <b_jonas> coppro: not much really, it's just how a lot of popular book series, movie series, and tv series work.
19:23:51 <b_jonas> only people don't really agree where exactly the Dune books start to be bad
19:24:01 <b_jonas> for some series there's a more obvious cutoff
19:25:14 <b_jonas> if the series is succesful, it can't avoid that death, it can only postpone it
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19:26:44 <vanila> why nobody cares about brainfuck in printf????
19:26:49 <b_jonas> M:tG is in an even worse situation by the way. Unlike with film series, even if they could predict which is the last good block, they can't just choose to not make blocks after that one, because if there's no next block, that reduces the value of the current blocka lot.
19:27:24 <coppro> ais523: I'm talking more about things like URI and API design
19:29:50 <ais523> coppro: I like the "the simplest thing that could possibly work" approach to those
19:30:21 <b_jonas> (unless it's eso)
19:30:47 <ais523> I don't have much to justify this approach with, though
19:30:50 <ais523> mostly just personal preference
19:30:52 <coppro> heh
19:31:01 <ais523> e.g. on the NH4 blog, I choose the URIs manually
19:31:11 <coppro> yeah, but it's a static site
19:31:22 <coppro> doesn't need anything fancy
19:31:59 <ais523> I've actually never written a dynamic website
19:32:06 <ais523> this is due to growing up with browsers, but no Internet and no servers
19:32:23 <ais523> my notion of "dynamic" was DHTML :-)
19:34:19 <ais523> that said there are huge advantages to using a static page generator over CGI; sometimes this isn't possible, but whenever it's possible, IMO it's either clearly ridiculous or the best option
19:35:39 <b_jonas> ais523: when I made the mirror at http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/comic/millie/ I was wondering for a while if I should make the html pages of the individual strips staticly generated pages or a single dynamic CGI.
19:36:26 <ais523> assuming every page is generated at least once and that the ratio of disk space cost to CPU time cost is favourable (it usually is), you typically want the static generation
19:36:30 <b_jonas> I haven't done much website stuff yet, but should eventually try to do a little bit more. Not as a carreer, but only to make a web interface for some things I make.
19:36:40 <ais523> the only exception I can think of involves if disk bandwidth becomes a bottleneck
19:36:50 -!- agawa has joined.
19:36:54 <ais523> (which it does for large sites, but they're typically using memcached anyway, or even cloudflare)
19:38:14 <vanila> hello
19:38:22 <vanila> do you have any stuff in this years AGDQ
19:38:37 <agawa> hello anyone has infos about new eso-lang matl ?
19:39:15 <vanila> https://esolangs.org/wiki/MATL
19:40:38 <agawa> there is no online compiler for this ?
19:40:46 <ais523> vanila: the TASbot team has something planned, yes; I was involved a few weeks ago helping with some of the planning, but only had a very small part in it
19:40:47 <b_jonas> is that really new?
19:40:58 <vanila> exciting ais523 !
19:41:06 <int-e> vanila: it's hard to pay attention between all the other 32c3 stuff :P
19:41:16 <vanila> yeah 32cs was loads of fun
19:41:24 <b_jonas> ais523: only a small part? ow. I was kind of hoping you'd finished the vanilla nethack DOS tas or something.
19:41:27 <vanila> there's heaps of talks left i want to see
19:41:45 <b_jonas> though that would be almost entirely unsuitable for a GDQ tas block
19:41:46 <vanila> int-e, was there any eso-relevant stuff?
19:41:56 <vanila> the only eso thing i saw was the printf thing
19:42:01 <b_jonas> printf?
19:42:06 <b_jonas> there was some zelda thing
19:42:11 <b_jonas> but probably not easo
19:42:18 <int-e> vanila: well the printf-brainfuck is from https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7163-new_memory_corruption_attacks_why_can_t_we_have_nice_things apparently
19:42:19 <vanila> b_jonas, brainfuck encoded in printf format string
19:42:30 <ais523> quintopia: err, 3SP doesn't print every command, it only prints on each main loop iteration
19:42:44 <ais523> so your PPCG submission doesn't work
19:42:56 <ais523> (printing anything meaningful in 3SP is very difficult, which is why I was surprised you'd done it)
19:43:07 <ais523> did you try running the program through an interp?
19:44:44 <ais523> actually that might be an interp bug
19:46:50 <vanila> https://github.com/lmendo/MATL
19:47:10 <vanila> http://tryitonline.net/
19:50:00 <coppro> ais523: eh, that's not even what I'm talking about :)
19:51:00 <quintopia> ais523: I must have misunderstood your spec when I wrote my python implementation.
19:51:28 <ais523> quintopia: try the C interp for a comparison
19:51:44 <quintopia> Today in brainfuck news: Hello, World! is now down to 87 bytes
19:51:47 <ais523> "then whenever the second cell is odd at the end of one cycle of execution of the program"
19:51:51 <ais523> quintopia: is that a new record?
19:51:55 <quintopia> yes
19:52:00 <vanila> lol
19:52:02 <ais523> that's actually pretty major news
19:52:04 <vanila> quintopia, how was this found?
19:52:06 <ais523> what's the exact spelling?
19:52:13 <ais523> (it matters for hello world golf)
19:52:16 <quintopia> exactly how i spelled it
19:52:30 <quintopia> Hello, world! is down to 82 bytes
19:52:38 <coppro> ais523: the principles underlying HTTP are quite interesting
19:52:46 <coppro> I read Roy Fielding's thesis over the break and it's given me a lot to think about
19:52:57 <b_jonas> quintopia: put it up on the esowiki
19:53:09 <vanila> quintopia, did you use a computer search
19:53:18 <ais523> quintopia: right, I was thinking that "Hello, world!" would be shorter than "Hello, World!"
19:53:23 <quintopia> also there is a new 394 byte quine (requiring wrapping)
19:53:49 <b_jonas> nice
19:53:56 <vanila> please info
19:54:11 <ais523> quintopia: is that the record for positive-length quines?
19:54:38 <vanila> positive-length got me thinking, source code of negative length
19:55:11 <quintopia> quintopia: no, but it is probably a record among quines using only printable characters
19:55:22 <quintopia> s/quintopia/ais523/
19:55:56 <quintopia> (TIL that Irssi will auto-complete my own nick)
19:55:59 <ais523> haha, I hadn't considered that non-,.<>+-[] characters might make quinewriting easier
19:56:15 <vanila> nice
19:56:17 <ais523> ais523: Konversation will also tab-complete my nick
19:56:23 <ais523> which is useful when ctcp-ing myself
19:56:33 <quintopia> ais523: DB Cristofani's is 392 bytes, but the last character is SUB
19:56:34 <vanila> quintopia, please reply
19:56:54 <quintopia> vanila: are you luis mendo
19:56:57 <vanila> no
19:57:17 <vanila> those links were for mauris
19:57:28 <vanila> i would like to know where this new hello world is from
19:57:30 <vanila> how was it make
19:58:25 <vanila> is this information not allowed to be relased yet?
19:58:38 <mauris> hi? i don't follow (i haven't been reading)
19:59:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46068&oldid=44542 * Quintopia * (+176) /* Examples */
19:59:34 <quintopia> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/55422/hello-world/68494#68494
20:00:13 <mauris> ah yes, primo/mitchs are amazing at golf :)
20:00:16 <ais523> ooh, that is a clever way to do it
20:00:27 <ais523> print hello, while leaving world on the tape
20:00:33 <ais523> and use a loop to print the world
20:01:31 <quintopia> indeed. plus a brute force search for the optimal starting tape values
20:02:34 <quintopia> < ais523> and use a loop to print the world <-- ALEX'S WORLD DOMINATION SCHEME REVEALED
20:02:56 <vanila> this is amazing :D
20:03:01 <vanila> thank you so much
20:03:08 <quintopia> (i'm just sad you didn't add peals of maniacal laughter afterward)
20:04:02 <ais523> wasn't my idea, nor my program, I'm just explaining it to the channel
20:04:09 <ais523> also maniacal laughter isn't really my style
20:05:25 <mauris> i'm so confused, why did vanila ping me
20:06:02 <vanila> agawa
20:06:16 <agawa> yea ?
20:06:45 <vanila> links for you
20:06:48 <ais523> vanila: pinging random people for no reason normally gets you in trouble
20:06:50 <vanila> http://tryitonline.net/
20:06:55 <vanila> https://github.com/lmendo/MATL
20:06:56 <vanila> get off my case
20:07:05 <agawa> matl isnt listed among online compilers thu
20:07:23 <ais523> btw, is tryitonline owned by a code golfer? there seem to be a lot of esolangs in there for no obvious reason
20:07:35 <quintopia> it's Dennis's site, I believe
20:07:47 <quintopia> it's ONLY esolangs
20:07:53 <ais523> haha
20:08:04 <ais523> you seem to be right
20:08:06 <ais523> the name was too generic
20:08:12 <mauris> ok, so you're a troll.
20:08:13 <agawa> its so naivly designed
20:08:38 <vanila> you're an idiot
20:08:55 <quintopia> ais523: so, clearly my variant of 3SP needs a different name to distinguish it from the original. Suggestions?
20:09:20 <ais523> something along the lines of "three star programmer with super-fast IO", but more marketingspeaky
20:09:24 <ais523> I'm not very good at marketingspeak though
20:09:45 <myname> ++?
20:09:56 <quintopia> how about "noisy 3sp"
20:10:07 <ais523> hmm, I like it
20:10:25 <ais523> you can add it as a section to the article if you like, probably beats making a new article for such a small variation
20:11:31 <ais523> the reasons 3SP only checks once each cycle are: a) efficiency; b_jonas doesn't like it when I make esolangs that run impractically slow; b) otherwise you have to modulate the output-on variable in bursts to avoid being spammed with increasing ASCII
20:11:50 <haavard> What's 3SP?
20:11:57 <b_jonas> haavard: check the wiki
20:11:57 <ais523> haavard: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Three_Star_Programmer
20:12:01 <myname> he should implement eodermdrome!
20:12:04 <ais523> quintopia abbreviates it to "3SP"
20:12:17 <haavard> b_jonas: googling "esolangs" and "3SP" gave a single result, a log from here
20:12:22 <haavard> thanks, ais523
20:12:26 <b_jonas> I'd actually added a redirect from 3SP to the wiki already
20:12:48 <ais523> haavard: we added a search hint to the wiki's search engine very recently so that entering 3SP into the search box will take you to the right place
20:12:56 <ais523> don't know if external search engines even index those though
20:13:13 <haavard> Doesn't look like they do, unfortunately
20:13:20 <ais523> myname: eodermdrome probably wins the stakes for "ais523 languages that people have seriously thought about implementing but never succeeded"
20:13:32 <b_jonas> what?
20:13:35 <b_jonas> there's a redirect
20:13:41 <b_jonas> they can index that
20:13:46 <b_jonas> why'd you need a hint?
20:13:52 <ais523> b_jonas: a redirect is a search hint, pretty much
20:13:53 <myname> ais523: that's intruiging
20:13:59 <b_jonas> hmm
20:14:04 <ais523> that's how they're mostly used at Wikipedia, for instance
20:14:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46069&oldid=46040 * Quintopia * (+354) Distinguish noisy variant.
20:14:28 <vanila> agawa, anyway i hope that link is useful i am SO SORRY for accidentally getting the wrong name earlier
20:14:49 <agawa> wrong name ?
20:14:59 <vanila> yeah some idiot called me a troll for it
20:15:17 <agawa> if u are abov 1m 60 u arent a troll
20:15:20 <ais523> vanila: explaining earlier would probably have defused the situation somewhat
20:15:44 <ais523> agawa: that is a pretty unusual definition of "troll", although I can't say I 100% disagree with it :-)
20:16:06 <b_jonas> um
20:16:10 <b_jonas> there are high trolls
20:16:18 <b_jonas> or at least were
20:16:27 <b_jonas> we haven't seen them much since the fall of the Dark Lord, luckily
20:16:46 <b_jonas> some say they all turned to stone in the Sun, but I think they're still hiding out somewhere, waiting for a new evil master to serve
20:17:24 <quintopia> ais523: I like the idea of modulating it in bursts. It's not hard to toggle on and then immediately off.
20:18:03 <quintopia> but then "not hard" might be against the spirit of your original design
20:18:27 <ais523> the original idea was purely "is this TC by itself?"
20:18:31 <ais523> wasn't intended specifically for difficulty
20:18:33 <ais523> just for tarpitness
20:19:55 <quintopia> In fact, I'm thinking of redesigning Platts so that output happens as soon as it has been toggled. And maybe change the input method too. It would be nice to be able to compile ResPlicate to Platts. Or Noisy 3SP to Platts.
20:20:07 -!- jaboja has joined.
20:22:33 <ais523> ooh, I hadn't seen Platts
20:22:43 <ais523> concrete syntax for tag systems, along the lines of BCT or PMMN?
20:23:50 -!- Alcest has joined.
20:52:12 <b_jonas> :(
20:52:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:52:59 <ais523> b_jonas: ?
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21:34:52 <ais523> idea I just had: a language in which stdin is appended to the program before it starts running, thus the null program is a self-interpreter
21:35:51 <vanila> its funny that you can write an interpreter without even saying anything about the language
21:36:02 <ais523> yes
21:36:32 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:36:39 <ais523> now we can start to work out what other properties the language needs to have
21:37:08 <ais523> to be interesting, it shouldn't be able to read its own source, otherwise the special feature pretty much collapses
21:37:14 <ais523> this in turn implies you have to be able to redefine commands
21:38:19 <ais523> if we assume the program stops running at EOF, this means that your program has to handle the possibility that it might have no more input, and thus just exit
21:38:48 <ais523> this means it shouldn't output in "realtime", presumably this means that we output what's left on some internal storage (maybe a stack) when the program stops running
21:39:03 <vanila> i like thihs
21:39:14 <ais523> huh, that'd actually lead to a really interesting outcome if we output the /entirety/ of internal storage
21:39:44 <ais523> it means that you need to be able to deduce the output from input x++y, from y and the output from input x
21:40:11 <ais523> that doesn't break TCness, but it does mean you can't write a BF interpreter
21:40:46 <ais523> because, e.g., you couldn't tell if a program had leading + signs on
21:41:00 <ais523> without programs like +++ producing output
21:44:30 -!- jaboja has joined.
21:44:35 <ais523> I guess you could add a side-channel for encoding internal state, like printing output mod 256 (so that larger values could be used to track stuff inside the internals), but that'd just lead to reasonably uninspired minsky-ing on the first or last character of output
21:49:59 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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22:07:37 <\oren\> minskying? I minski, she minskies, I have minskied.
22:11:22 <ais523> your minsky may vary :-D
22:11:41 <ais523> but by "minskying" I meant "encoding the entire state of the program into a single integer"
22:14:27 <\oren\> `? minski
22:14:44 <HackEgo> minski? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:15:04 <myname> what a lag
22:15:43 <vanila> \o/
22:15:52 <vanila> myzinski
22:19:34 <\oren\> `le/rn minski/to minski on : /mɪnskiː/ To act as a minski machine on; of a program or programming language, to encode its entire state into the object as a single integer.
22:19:48 <HackEgo> Learned «minski»
22:20:20 <myname> why the rn?
22:22:34 <\oren\> why rnot?
22:31:27 <myname> what does it do?
22:33:22 <FireFly> it le/rns things
22:33:56 <FireFly> `cat bin/le\/rn
22:33:57 <HackEgo> cat: bin/le\/rn: No such file or directory
22:34:02 <FireFly> blergh
22:34:19 <FireFly> actually wait what
22:34:21 <FireFly> how does that even work
22:34:30 <FireFly> `` which le/rn
22:34:31 <HackEgo> le/rn
22:34:41 <FireFly> is it an alias or something?
22:34:46 <FireFly> or wait...
22:34:52 <FireFly> `` ls le
22:34:53 <HackEgo> rn \ rn_append
22:34:57 <FireFly> cute
22:36:20 <ais523> FireFly: have you seen Acme::Don't in Perl?
22:36:42 <ais523> (the joke, apart from the uselessness of a don't operator (it's the opposite of do), is how they got an apostrophe into the name of a keyword)
22:38:25 <FireFly> I have not, but alas I don't actually know Perl :<
22:38:29 <FireFly> What is the trick?
22:40:29 -!- agawa has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:41:06 -!- agawa has joined.
22:44:46 <zgrep> FireFly: Acme::Don::t
22:47:48 <FireFly> Ah
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22:57:57 <tswett> \oren\: the present participle of "minski" would have to be "minskiing".
23:00:25 <tswett> I think the only orthographical changes that are allowed in English present participles are chopping off a final silent "e", and doubling the final consonant.
23:05:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:11:29 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> <WassPord> I'm a big fan of 50 Cent. Or, as he's called in Zimbabwe, Four hundred million dollars. <-- you know a joke is old when it refers to a no longer existing currency hth
23:11:29 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:15:51 <int-e> @uptime
23:15:51 <lambdabot> uptime: 21d 4h 59m 21s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
23:24:28 <izabera> Proceed with this action? [y/N]: y
23:24:31 <izabera> Please type 'Y[es]' or 'N[o]' to make selection
23:24:33 <izabera> ^ freebsd
23:25:08 <oerjan> `` find | grep '[.]e$'
23:25:21 <HackEgo> No output.
23:25:37 <izabera> itym find . -name '*.e'
23:25:45 <oerjan> OKAY
23:26:19 <oerjan> my brain hasn't reserved space for find's options.
23:26:33 <izabera> swap out some math
23:26:39 <oerjan> NEVAR
23:30:07 <int-e> `` find -samefile canary
23:30:29 <HackEgo> ​./canary
23:30:43 <int-e> `cat canary
23:30:44 <HackEgo> ​*tsjørp*
23:30:54 <int-e> `culprits canary
23:31:00 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 shachaf ais523 oerjan oerjan ais523 oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 ais523 shachaf int-e oerjan elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull c00kiemon5ter Phantom_Hoover elliott oerjan shachaf elliott ais523 e
23:31:37 <oerjan> that's the norwegian way to spell *chirp* phonetically hth
23:32:45 <int-e> `` culprits canary | sed -e s/oerjan/ø/g -e s/elliott/é/g
23:32:49 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 shachaf ais523 oerjan oerjan ais523 oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 ais523 shachaf int-e oerjan elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull c00kiemon5ter Phantom_Hoover elliott oerjan shachaf elliott ais523 e
23:33:50 <izabera> `` culprits canary | od -An -c
23:33:54 <HackEgo> ​ o e r j a 017 n o e r j a 017 n \ o e r j a 017 n a i s 5 2 017 3 \ s h a c h a 017 f a i s 5 2 017 3 \ o e r j a 017 n o e r j a 017 n \ a i s 5 2 017 3 o e r j a 017 n \ o e
23:34:02 <izabera> -_-
23:34:06 <izabera> `` culprits canary | od -An -tx1c
23:34:09 <HackEgo> ​ 6f 65 72 6a 61 0f 6e 20 6f 65 72 6a 61 0f 6e 20 \ o e r j a 017 n o e r j a 017 n \ 6f 65 72 6a 61 0f 6e 20 61 69 73 35 32 0f 33 20 \ o e r j a 017 n a i s 5 2 017 3 \ 73 68 61 63 68 61 0f 66 20 61 69 73 35 32 0f 33 \ s h a
23:34:13 <izabera> oh come on
23:34:14 <Phantom_Hoover> `paste canary
23:34:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/canary
23:34:20 <izabera> `` culprits canary | xxd
23:34:22 <HackEgo> 0000000: 6f65 726a 610f 6e20 6f65 726a 610f 6e20 oerja.n oerja.n \ 0000010: 6f65 726a 610f 6e20 6169 7335 320f 3320 oerja.n ais52.3 \ 0000020: 7368 6163 6861 0f66 2061 6973 3532 0f33 shacha.f ais52.3 \ 0000030: 206f 6572 6a61 0f6e 206f 6572 6a61 0f6e oerja.n oerja.n \ 0000040: 2061 6973 3532 0f33 206f 6572 6a61 0f6e ais52.3 oerja.n \ 00000
23:34:23 <int-e> `culprits-c canary
23:34:28 <HackEgo> ​ 14 oerjan 11 elliott 10 ais523 3 shachaf 1 Phantom_Hoover 1 nitia 1 int-e 1 FreeFull 1 c00kiemon5ter
23:34:38 <Phantom_Hoover> what the fuck is canary
23:34:47 <izabera> see? there's an extra character in oerjan
23:35:02 <int-e> right, makes sense
23:35:20 <izabera> 0f
23:35:25 <izabera> why is there 0f in there?
23:36:15 <int-e> `` culprits canary | sed -e s/oerja.n/ø/g -e s/elliot.t/é/g
23:36:18 <HackEgo> ​ø ø ø ais523 shachaf ais523 ø ø ais523 ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ais523 ais523 ais523 shachaf int-e ø é é é é é é é ais523 ais523 é FreeFull c00kiemon5ter Phantom_Hoover é ø shachaf é ais523 é ais523 nitia
23:36:30 <int-e> izabera: because of hilighting http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/f267da928345/bin/culprits
23:38:30 <int-e> `? nitia
23:38:32 <HackEgo> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
23:40:14 * oerjan wonders if int-e needs that explained
23:40:33 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/nitia
23:40:35 <HackEgo> shachaf shachaf
23:40:43 <int-e> oerjan: no, not really
23:40:48 <oerjan> good, good
23:41:10 <int-e> `? ina
23:41:11 <HackEgo> ina? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:41:17 -!- Taneb has changed nick to nitia.
23:41:25 <nitia> I am not sure why I have this registered
23:41:53 <oerjan> pretty sure it
23:42:00 -!- nitia has changed nick to Taneb.
23:42:05 <oerjan> 's related to that wisdom
23:42:58 <Taneb> I'll save that in case my gender becomes painfully fluid
23:43:52 <int-e> (ina would be the sister of initia, but she's not been born yet)
23:43:58 <int-e> ej
23:44:11 <int-e> nitia, I mean
23:45:16 <int-e> oerjan: the BBC thing had me confused for a while but google helps
23:45:55 <int-e> `? bbc
23:45:58 <HackEgo> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets and tiny elfs.
23:46:35 <int-e> ah, déjà vu
23:46:50 <int-e> `? wisdom
23:46:51 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
23:47:09 <oerjan> int-e: they have a middle sister named estin hth
23:47:29 * oerjan cannot remember which file
23:47:35 <int-e> wisdom repeats itself
23:53:12 <oerjan> <haavard> @metar enzv <-- NOOOOO it cannot be....
23:53:39 * oerjan feels his uniqueness fading
23:53:45 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/monqy
23:53:48 <HackEgo> Bike FreeFull oerjan FreeFull elliott oerjan shachaf shachaf elliott nitia
23:54:42 <haavard> oerjan: don't worry, I'm going to ENVA in a week ;)
23:54:47 <Taneb> @metar EGNM
23:54:47 <int-e> `culprits useless_file.txt
23:54:47 <lambdabot> EGNM 032350Z 13005KT 2000 BR SCT003 05/05 Q0980
23:54:48 <HackEgo> fizzie estin
23:54:53 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
23:55:03 <int-e> oerjan: that's the one
23:55:14 <oerjan> haavard: yes but are you actually norwegian
23:55:30 <oerjan> i was assuming swedish from your name, until now
23:56:02 <haavard> Only 1/8th swedish :)
23:56:42 <oerjan> THAT'S NOT AN ANSWER
23:56:53 <Taneb> haavard: you're less swedish than I am dutch
23:57:03 <int-e> oerjan: are you sure? perhaps you just didn't ask the right question...
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23:58:15 <oerjan> int-e: i'm pretty sure i asked "are you actually norwegian"
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23:58:37 <shachaf> `smlist 431
23:58:39 <HackEgo> smlist 431: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
23:58:44 <int-e> oerjan: I know. It's still some answer :P
23:58:53 <oerjan> SKEPTICAL
23:59:45 <int-e> oerjan: you're just too picky; it answered a question that you didn't ask.
23:59:53 <Taneb> `? smlist
23:59:54 <HackEgo> smlist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:01:07 <haavard> I am actually norwegian except for that swedish slice, oerjan
00:01:19 <oerjan> NOOOOO
00:01:40 <Taneb> oerjan: my brother woke up in Norway this morning
00:01:41 <haavard> Do you also study at NTNU? (spying on your host)
00:02:10 <oerjan> haavard: not any more, just kept the club membership
00:02:15 <Taneb> (he went to sleep there last night, too)
00:02:24 <Taneb> Although a lot further south than you guys, I believe
00:03:25 <haavard> oerjan: I see
00:03:50 <haavard> Taneb: there's only around 3-4 hours of driving between here and the south end of Norway tbh
00:03:53 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
00:03:55 <hppavilion[1]> Hellu
00:04:05 <hppavilion[1]> @messages-
00:04:05 <lambdabot> oerjan said 52m 35s ago: <hppavilion[1]> <WassPord> I'm a big fan of 50 Cent. Or, as he's called in Zimbabwe, Four hundred million dollars. <-- you know a joke is old when it refers to a no longer existing currency hth
00:04:06 <oerjan> Taneb: this means i will now have to avoid haavard like you have avoided elliott.
00:04:12 <Taneb> haavard: my brother's been staying with friends in Stavanger
00:04:43 <haavard> There you go, that's my home town ;)
00:04:52 <haavard> I didn't know being norwegian was some special perk over here, oerjan
00:05:07 <hppavilion[1]> Hello, haavard!
00:05:17 <haavard> Hi
00:05:26 <hppavilion[1]> I would think you were new because I don't recognize you, but oerjan appears to have seen you around before
00:05:29 <hppavilion[1]> Hm..
00:05:33 <Taneb> haavard: oh wow
00:05:35 <hppavilion[1]> haavallo?
00:05:41 <haavard> I am pretty new, hppavilion[1] ;)
00:05:44 <haavard> At least to the channel
00:05:48 <hppavilion[1]> Welcome then!
00:05:53 <haavard> Thanks :)
00:06:06 <hppavilion[1]> haavard: So what projects are you currently working on?
00:06:12 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm automating Nomic)
00:06:26 <haavard> I'm writing a JIT compiler for ><>
00:07:42 <hppavilion[1]> Whoa
00:07:46 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/super*
00:07:48 <HackEgo> wisdom/superexponential growth wisdom/supermarionation wisdom/supermarioperator
00:07:53 <hppavilion[1]> I have never been able to write a compiler so far
00:08:27 <Phantom_Hoover> oh my god what are these people doing
00:08:30 <haavard> It's a lot easier than I initially thought
00:08:34 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn superduperexponential growth/is exponential growth on top of exponential growth
00:08:38 <HackEgo> Learned «superduperexponential growth»
00:08:43 <hppavilion[1]> `? superduper
00:08:44 <HackEgo> superduper? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:08:45 <haavard> I'm using DynASM, which makes it a lot nicer
00:08:45 <Phantom_Hoover> they've drawn a 3-punctured sphere with big circles for the punctures
00:08:48 <hppavilion[1]> `? superduperexponentialgrowth
00:08:49 <HackEgo> superduperexponentialgrowth? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:08:50 <Phantom_Hoover> jfc
00:09:00 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----###
00:09:03 <hppavilion[1]> `? superduperexponential growth
00:09:04 <HackEgo> is exponential growth on top of exponential growth
00:09:19 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn superduperexponential growth/superduperexponential growth is exponential growth on top of exponential growth
00:09:22 <HackEgo> Learned «superduperexponential growth»
00:09:25 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I deserved that
00:09:54 <int-e> apparently smlist is for http://www.supermegacomics.com/
00:10:44 <oerjan> a learning experience
00:11:09 <hppavilion[1]> haavard: Have you ever heard of Nomic?
00:11:19 <haavard> I just googled it
00:11:26 <hppavilion[1]> Ah xD
00:11:37 <haavard> Is it the game where the rules change, like wikipedia states?
00:11:43 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a LISP-based Nomic rule handler callsed λ-Nomic
00:11:46 <hppavilion[1]> haavard: Yes
00:11:49 <int-e> `? slist
00:11:50 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
00:12:11 <oerjan> `le/rn supercalifragilisticexponential growth/Supercalifragilisticexponential growth leaves Graham's number in the dust.
00:12:14 <HackEgo> Learned «supercalifragilisticexponential growth»
00:12:31 <hppavilion[1]> My goal is to make a pretty website frontend and publish it on the internet
00:12:40 <hppavilion[1]> And to generally make Nomic accessible to more people
00:12:46 <hppavilion[1]> By handling it online
00:12:56 <hppavilion[1]> Sort of the chess.com of nomics
00:13:00 <haavard> Sounds pretty cool
00:13:14 <hppavilion[1]> It will be, I hope :)
00:13:22 <int-e> `le/rn smlist/Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
00:13:25 <HackEgo> Learned «smlist»
00:13:54 <Taneb> Peter Naur has died :(
00:13:59 <haavard> Why is learn spelled le/rn?
00:14:04 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: I have no clue who that is
00:14:10 <hppavilion[1]> haavard: We also have `learn
00:14:17 <Taneb> hppavilion[1]: he's the N in BNF
00:14:22 <hppavilion[1]> Oh :(
00:14:26 <int-e> 87, oh well.
00:14:41 <hppavilion[1]> haavard: But le/rn separates the knowledge from the... thing by / instead of space
00:14:57 <Taneb> `learn infers the head word from the text
00:15:01 <int-e> haavard: there's `learn that takes the first nontrivial word as the keyword
00:15:02 <hppavilion[1]> (the "thing" being the thing that you search for with `?)
00:15:06 <Taneb> `le/rn lets you manually specify the head word
00:15:22 <hppavilion[1]> Though it can't contain /
00:15:36 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe we should update le/rn to allow backslash-escaped /s
00:15:51 <int-e> `? le/rn
00:15:53 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
00:15:54 <hppavilion[1]> Because UNIVERSALITY
00:15:56 <haavard> I see..
00:16:21 <Phantom_Hoover> here did anything come of that band gap uncomputability result or not
00:16:33 <hppavilion[1]> haavard: If you use "`learn the walrus is john lennon" it will learn "walrus"
00:16:35 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: shachaf's suggestion is to make le//rn allow single slashes in the key
00:16:51 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: but what if you want a double backslash?
00:16:55 <oerjan> double slashes are impossible in a linux file system anyway
00:16:57 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought it was p. interesting in that it seemed to possibly entail solving the halting problem in finite time, but i didn't know the physics well enough to tell
00:17:05 <int-e> but le//rn is indistinguishable from le/rn to unix?
00:17:11 <shachaf> int-e: But it can look at argv[0]
00:18:01 <oerjan> `? ../cat
00:18:02 <HackEgo> Meow~~ >^.^<
00:18:03 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> Peter Naur has died :(
00:18:20 <Phantom_Hoover> how will we distinguish BNF from brainfuck now??
00:18:28 <int-e> `? bnf
00:18:31 <HackEgo> bnf? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:18:37 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Convergent evolution will make it unnecessary
00:18:47 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: Backus died in 2007
00:18:52 <Taneb> So we just have F now
00:18:52 <hppavilion[1]> Within a few thousand years
00:19:19 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: But no one uses "form" in programming anymore!
00:19:31 <hppavilion[1]> So really, we either have or E
00:19:32 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: the web is full of forms
00:19:32 <Taneb> hppavilion[1]: not even with Visual Basic?
00:19:38 <Phantom_Hoover> at least we have EF if we needed it extended
00:19:39 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/.\(.*\)/S\1./' wisdom/superd*
00:19:42 <HackEgo> No output.
00:19:56 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Ah, but everything in programming will be extensible pretty soon
00:20:09 <hppavilion[1]> So it'll just be soon enough
00:20:14 <int-e> extensible bugs
00:20:26 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Yes!
00:20:40 <hppavilion[1]> We should make EBNF: Esoteric Backus-Naur Form
00:20:58 <hppavilion[1]> (Acronym collision intentional)
00:21:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: actually it will learn "walru" hth
00:21:14 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Really? Woooooooooooow
00:21:19 <vanila> BNF is designed for clarity
00:21:23 <vanila> how will you make EBNF?
00:21:42 <hppavilion[1]> A form that sheds the usual ideas of "logical parsing" and "ease-of-use" to make something fun and exciting!
00:21:49 -!- jaboja has joined.
00:22:02 <vanila> wait it lready exists, perl regex
00:22:10 <hppavilion[1]> Oh. Right.
00:22:46 <hppavilion[1]> Another idea I'm currently working on is Classical Programming
00:22:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that band gap result says little about "real" physics, it's an idealized system in the infinite growth limit.
00:22:49 <hppavilion[1]> Programming based on classes
00:22:57 <hppavilion[1]> Not based on OO, because there aren't many objects
00:23:02 <hppavilion[1]> Just the classes
00:23:22 <hppavilion[1]> And classes aren't just a fancy way to hold methods and data. They're the bulk of the language
00:23:37 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, i expected as much, but it's still fairly interesting if you could get the result in bounded time
00:23:49 <hppavilion[1]> Problem is, I don't know what to put in classes to make them more... well... usable for my idea
00:24:30 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh! I know how to accomplish it!
00:24:39 <hppavilion[1]> Just start making shit up and work back from there!
00:27:58 <oerjan> `` ls wisdom/mins*
00:28:00 <HackEgo> wisdom/minski
00:28:34 <oerjan> `? minski
00:28:35 <HackEgo> to minski on : /mɪnskiː/ To act as a minski machine on; of a program or programming language, to encode its entire state into the object as a single integer.
00:29:03 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/minsk{i,y}; sed -i 's/minski/Minsky/g' wisdom/mins*
00:29:06 <HackEgo> No output.
00:29:11 <oerjan> `? minsky
00:29:12 <HackEgo> to Minsky on : /mɪnskiː/ To act as a Minsky machine on; of a program or programming language, to encode its entire state into the object as a single integer.
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00:29:55 <int-e> . o O ( Minsky is the capital of minsky. )
00:30:19 <oerjan> int-e: don't you mean belorussiay hth
00:30:22 <int-e> (Minsk is the capital of Belarus)
00:30:36 <int-e> oerjan: no, I was punning
00:30:58 <int-e> oerjan: I'm not sure that "to Minsky" should have a capital M.
00:31:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: someone was mentioning in the discussion on scott aaronson's blog that one "practical" version of this is that you can have systems that look gapless up to an arbitrary size, then suddenly switch to gapped, or was it the other way around.
00:32:30 <Phantom_Hoover> ah
00:32:31 <oerjan> int-e: i think we should leave that decision to the native speakers.
00:32:35 <Phantom_Hoover> quite unremarkable then
00:32:52 <int-e> oerjan: but I do speak natively ;)
00:33:13 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well, you can presumably embed an arbitrary finite computation into that switch
00:34:31 <oerjan> int-e: Wenn du es so sagst.
00:35:12 <oerjan> or are you saying you're actually (>=)bilingual
00:35:36 <int-e> no, I'm not saying that
00:35:44 <oerjan> Gut, gut
00:36:36 <oerjan> . o O ( What is O KAY in German )
00:36:52 <int-e> Okay? In Ordnung...
00:37:20 <oerjan> I NORD NUNG
00:37:52 <int-e> Nice to meet you, Mr. Nung.
00:39:58 <oerjan> char ming
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00:54:18 <tadaaa> this channel is funny. i will be here more ofthen
00:55:40 <shachaf> `welcome tadaaa
00:55:42 <HackEgo> tadaaa: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:01:31 <FireFly> hachaf
01:01:38 <shachaf> HireFly
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01:26:45 <tswett> `run culprits canary | loudly
01:27:35 <FireFly> rather silent if you ask me
01:27:47 <tswett> I agree.
01:27:51 <\oren\> why is everyone watching downtown abbey
01:27:57 <tswett> Maybe HackEgo has been spending the last minute or two inhaling.
01:28:06 <HackEgo> No output.
01:28:26 <\oren\> i don't see what's so great about an abbot in the inner city
01:29:09 <tswett> `loudly BEST COMMAND EVER Y/N?
01:29:11 <HackEgo> BEST COMMAND EVER Y/N?
01:29:16 -!- variable has joined.
01:29:25 <tswett> `run welcome | loudly
01:29:29 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric pro,
01:29:40 <shachaf> no hth
01:29:49 <tswett> `? loudly
01:29:51 <HackEgo> It's pretty annoying.
01:30:01 <myname> indeed
01:30:26 <Elronnd> `loudly people should stop abusing me
01:30:27 <\oren\> `rainbow best camand evar
01:30:27 <HackEgo> people should stop abusing me
01:30:30 <tswett> `run echo "Did you mean: $(loudly loudly)" > wisdom/loudly
01:30:54 <\oren\> wat
01:31:09 <Elronnd> `? loudly
01:31:30 <HackEgo> No output.
01:31:32 <HackEgo> No output.
01:31:32 <tswett> Everyone, HackEgo is tired now and needs to rest.
01:31:32 <Elronnd> `loudly are you dead
01:31:33 <HackEgo> Did you mean: loudly
01:31:34 <HackEgo> are you dead
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01:31:50 <tswett> `? misspellings of croissant
01:31:52 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:31:56 <tswett> `? misspellings of crosant
01:31:58 <Elronnd> `loudly seriously, stop abusing me or I'll call the police for sexual harrasment
01:31:58 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:31:59 <HackEgo> seriously, stop abusing me or I'll call the polic,
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01:34:30 <tswett> `loudly Night, everyone.
01:34:31 <HackEgo> Night, everyone.
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01:35:08 <oerjan> `silently STOP SHOUTING
01:35:09 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: silently: not found
01:35:15 <oerjan> wat
01:35:17 <oerjan> oh
01:35:23 <oerjan> `quietly STOP SHOUTING
01:35:25 <HackEgo> ​ 
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01:43:40 <FireFly> very quiet
01:43:43 <FireFly> `cat bin/quietly
01:43:44 <HackEgo> echo " "
01:44:08 <shachaf> `` mv bin/{quietly,silently} # hth
01:44:11 <HackEgo> No output.
02:00:54 <Elronnd> `silently foo
02:00:57 <HackEgo> ​ 
02:15:58 <oerjan> > ord '\SUB'
02:16:00 <lambdabot> 26
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02:24:48 <oerjan> <agawa> if u are abov 1m 60 u arent a troll <-- wat
02:25:44 * oerjan grew up in a culture where trolls are assumed huge, with fairy tales telling how some mountains used to be them
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02:26:50 <lifthrasiir> well, a creature which is 1 million and 60 cm tall is probably not a troll
02:27:39 <oerjan> hm that's 10000.6 m
02:27:54 <oerjan> a bit large for a mountain.
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02:29:11 <shachaf> @metar KOAK
02:29:12 <lambdabot> KOAK 040153Z 09008KT 10SM BKN065 OVC160 11/02 A2981 RMK AO2 SLP094 T01110022
02:29:20 <shachaf> this is a much more reasonable temperature tdh
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02:30:56 <oerjan> ♫ Det bur ei troll i Senja ♫ så reint utruleg stort ♫ Det fiskar kval på Malangsgrunn ♫ som andre fiskar mort ♫
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02:40:34 <oerjan> (There lives a troll in Senja / So incredibly large / It fishes for whales at Malangsgrunn / like others fish for pollock)
02:41:08 <oerjan> that's supposedly _small_ pollock, i couldn't find a specific english word.
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02:42:59 <lifthrasiir> http://babelstone.blogspot.com/2016/01/whats-new-in-unicode-90.html
02:43:42 <lifthrasiir> lol on the "Emoji" and "non-Emoji" headings
02:43:54 <lifthrasiir> "Not Emoji"*
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03:13:09 <hppavilion[1]> Precircumfix Operation
03:13:15 <hppavilion[1]> [5]6
03:13:18 <hppavilion[1]> What does it do?
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03:25:21 <zzo38> I don't know.
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03:52:10 <boily> home!
03:52:14 <boily> @metar CYUL
03:52:15 <lambdabot> CYUL 040300Z 36011G16KT 4SM -SN BKN020 OVC045 M10/M15 A2998 RMK SC6SC2 SLP155
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04:01:21 <hppavilion[1]> So here's a langauge I've brought up before
04:01:49 <hppavilion[1]> A language where an entire program is encoded as an arithmetical expression
04:02:17 <hppavilion[1]> e.g. out<<"Hello, world!"
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04:06:01 <zzo38> I have thought of such things before too (although not quite like that)
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04:19:41 <hppavilion[1]> #esoteric's guide to Star Wars: Think about it and it will make far less sense than you can possibly imagine
04:23:49 <oerjan> i don't know, i can imagine quite a bit.
04:32:08 <Elronnd> Apparently printf is turing-complete
04:33:20 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: How so?
04:33:38 <Elronnd> I forget; I saw something on it on github at somem point
04:33:43 <Elronnd> I'll see if I can dig it up
04:34:57 <Elronnd> Here we go
04:35:10 <Elronnd> "a brainfuck inside printf" https://github.com/HexHive/printbf
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04:37:07 <pikhq> Wait, is that actually working with the formal spec of printf, and not just UB?
04:39:20 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Wow! And it turns out Python is TC too!
04:40:26 <pikhq> Hmm. It's UB and fragile I think.
04:41:40 <hppavilion[1]> I'm currently making the base ruleset for an automated Nomic game :)
04:42:37 <hppavilion[1]> Specifically, the classic game using the LispRule ruleengine
04:42:42 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: wait, really? I never new it was possible for a well-known and used language to actually be turing-complete!
04:42:56 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: xD
04:43:15 <deltab> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/fprintf.html defines %n
04:43:28 <deltab> "The argument shall be a pointer to an integer into which is written the number of bytes written to the output so far by this call to one of the fprintf() functions. No argument is converted."
04:43:47 <hppavilion[1]> (λ-nomic, the site/software/game that I'm making for Nomic playing, supports/will support various base games and various rule engines)
04:46:26 <hppavilion[1]> OK, the software now has a registration feature
04:46:40 <hppavilion[1]> Registering into a game, not into the site
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05:33:15 <hppavilion[1]> Phew
05:33:24 <hppavilion[1]> I just implemented the voting mechanism
05:33:35 <hppavilion[1]> It is pure spaghetti
05:33:42 <hppavilion[1]> The italians would be proud
05:35:35 <hppavilion[1]> Here it is:
05:35:36 <hppavilion[1]> http://pastebin.com/cd1KsVJf
05:35:41 <hppavilion[1]> The formatting got a bit messed up
05:37:01 <hppavilion[1]> And now that I think about it, it isn't even complete
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05:51:04 <zzo38> Do you like my variant formats for Magic: the Gathering (such as Variant Star and so on)?
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06:20:51 <zzo38> I hope that I have now sufficiently improved the form to make the calculation of the MD5 hash of your account.
06:42:51 <hppavilion[1]> "My god
06:43:28 <hppavilion[1]> This guy took math and used it to prove the Illuminati (facetiously) xD
06:44:22 <shachaf> zzo38: Where can I read about Variant Star?
06:44:32 <shachaf> Also, md5 is scow
06:44:54 <zzo38> shachaf: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/star.var
06:45:24 <zzo38> I agree there certainly are better ways than MD5, but I have to use MD5 in this case, sorry.
06:47:16 <pikhq> MD5 is totally scow.
06:51:20 <hppavilion[1]> https://youtu.be/DfnBW6HvNwM
06:53:37 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I know!
06:54:30 <zzo38> But, I have to use MD5 anyways!
06:55:28 <zzo38> HTTP digest authentication requires it
06:56:03 <pikhq> Oh!
06:57:43 <pikhq> Welp, there's only one real problem here: using that prevents using good password storage.
06:57:44 <zzo38> But you can also use "htdigest" program or any other software on your computer to make MD5 calculation, you are not required to use the HTML form that I have made up.
06:58:13 <shachaf> Why are you using HTTP digest authentication?
06:58:53 <zzo38> That is to identify if you have account to post comment on my custom Magic: the Gathering cards.
06:59:47 <zzo38> The file that stores the passwords is private anyways so you cannot access it. The file that stores the cards and comments is a public file though, and account information is not stored there.
06:59:47 <pikhq> HTTPS is probably a better solution, though digest authentication beats basic authentication if you're *not* using HTTPS at least? I guess?
07:00:32 <zzo38> Even if it is HTTPS, the password is still send to my computer; HTTPS only prevent it being catch in between, not at the end!
07:00:52 <zzo38> And even then I should use HTTP authentication, whether basic or digest, to do log in.
07:01:43 <zzo38> Anyways, even "curl" program support digest authentication, so you do not need to do by web browser (although it is the possibility too).
07:07:36 <pikhq> I do like HTTP authentication as at least an option.
07:12:39 <shachaf> zzo38: Instead of "he" your description of Variant Star should say "he or she"
07:15:10 <zzo38> I could fix it, I just shorten it like that; many document to shorten like that commonly
07:15:38 <shachaf> Not the official rules, though.
07:16:03 <zzo38> These are not official rules; it is a variant game.
07:18:14 <zzo38> I do not mean that woman cannot use it; even if somehow someone is neither "he" nor "she" is still usable and is not prohibited either.
07:19:05 <zzo38> English is a Stupid language. Did you know that?
07:19:33 <shachaf> I did know that.
07:20:22 <zzo38> OK
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07:39:49 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: No, zzo38 should say "they"
07:40:09 <shachaf> Magic: The Gathering cards should probably say that.
07:40:10 <hppavilion[1]> Or, alternatively, use every possible name joined with ", or"
07:41:53 <zzo38> Avoiding such things like that is why I abbreviate just as "he", which is shorter and sufficiently clear as far as I can tell
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07:43:34 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: You could, of course, use "one", but then you sound like me
07:45:05 <zzo38> Well, I wrote it and see no reason to change it. However if you would want to write things using different convention I do not complain, unless it is a stupid convention (such as listing all possible names explicitly)
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08:33:34 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: I've defined a number #, based off of @, s.t. |#| = i
08:33:45 <hppavilion[1]> What I'm wondering is if |@#| = -i
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08:45:59 <zzo38> If | means absolute value, then, I would thought absolute value is supposed to be idenpotence
08:48:22 <shachaf> it normally is hth
08:49:08 <shachaf> sometimes i wonder whether oerjan will be appropriately offended at scow puns if he's not around for them
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08:50:25 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i discussed the existence of @ recently
08:51:07 <hppavilion[1]> myname: And?
08:51:19 <myname> you'd need to extend the reals by some dimension. quadratic polynoms would have 4 results
08:51:32 <myname> we didn't really end in a full definition
08:51:37 <myname> that'd be fun
08:52:05 <zzo38> I have invented "meta-complex numbers" in the past
08:52:14 <zzo38> Possibly some other people have also invented same thing
08:52:31 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Metacomplex as in?
08:52:56 <myname> what are meracomplex numbers?
08:54:29 <zzo38> For example you can have a realreal component, a realimaginary component, a imaginaryreal component, a imaginaryimaginaryimaginary component, a imaginaryimaginaryrealimaginary component, etc
08:54:58 <zzo38> They are still commutative and associative.
08:56:08 <zzo38> You can represent by matrix by use of tensor multiplication of [1,0;0,1] and [0,-1;1,0] and then they can be multiplied by real numbers and added together.
08:56:27 <zzo38> Now do you understand it please?
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10:41:09 <hppavilion[1]> e**(ix) = cos(x) + sin(x)i
10:41:22 <hppavilion[1]> But what about if you substitute j for i? Or k?
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11:52:57 <boily> @metar CYUL
11:52:57 <lambdabot> CYUL 041100Z 33003KT 15SM SKC M18/M24 A3019 RMK SLP229
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12:44:26 <b_jonas> `? snow
12:44:28 <b_jonas> `wisdom
12:44:42 <HackEgo> snow? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:44:42 <HackEgo> did/did: didn't
12:45:44 <b_jonas> `learn Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, which turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofoam on it.
12:45:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'snow': Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, which turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofoam on it.
12:58:13 <int-e> @metar lowi
12:58:14 <lambdabot> LOWI 041250Z 27008KT 9999 FEW008 SCT030 BKN060 04/02 Q0994 R08/19//95 NOSIG
13:04:11 <zzo38> How do I fix Firefox so that it will use the filename of the page being viewed as the default filename when saving it, rather than using the title as the default filename?
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13:54:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tedius]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46070&oldid=33269 * LegionMammal978 * (+2) /* Cat program */
13:58:51 <\oren\> @metar cyyz
13:58:52 <lambdabot> CYYZ 041300Z 36013KT 15SM FEW030 BKN075 M15/M20 A3031 RMK SC2AC3 SLP277
13:58:57 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAA
14:01:39 <Sgeo> `olist 1017
14:01:41 <HackEgo> olist 1017: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:01:48 <Sgeo> oh oops
14:02:31 <b_jonas> ooh!
14:02:33 <b_jonas> looking
14:04:36 <b_jonas> `learn Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, and some suspect that he is the son of Rhaegar Targeryan. It turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofoam on it.
14:04:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'snow': Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, and some suspect that he is the son of Rhaegar Targeryan. It turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofoam on it.
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14:21:54 <int-e> boo, spoilers
14:22:36 <int-e> `? spoilers
14:22:37 <HackEgo> spoilers? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:24:19 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/109/
14:27:13 <b_jonas> `? winter
14:27:14 <HackEgo> winter? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:27:21 <b_jonas> `le/rn Winter is coming.
14:27:22 <HackEgo> No output.
14:27:25 <b_jonas> `? winter
14:27:26 <HackEgo> winter? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:27:28 <b_jonas> `learn Winter is coming.
14:27:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'winter': Winter is coming.
14:27:33 <b_jonas> `? winter
14:27:34 <HackEgo> Winter is coming.
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15:34:30 <Taneb> My exam this afternoon went well
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16:59:34 <int-e> aaah stupid 2048 game...
17:07:42 <quintopia> try Threes. it's much less stupid.
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17:13:00 <quintopia> it amuses me that there is a section of the Tedius page that is about making the language less tedious
17:18:34 <int-e> quintopia: I just have to fight the urge to try and reach 8192 (because it takes a long, long time to get there)
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17:38:14 <quintopia> int-e: that number seems astronomical compared to the numbers you're able to reach in Threes
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18:14:38 <ais523> hi, I'm trying to do something totally insane and could use some advice
18:15:08 <ais523> basically, the idea is to make the common case of an esolang interpreter faster via not doing any sort of bounds checks, and instead catching the resulting segfault (via allocating memory a page at a time)
18:15:18 <ais523> this requires that I know where in the source code the segfault happened
18:15:32 <ais523> so what I want to do is convert the segfaults into (zero-cost) exceptions that I can catch
18:15:52 <ais523> however, the obvious method, of putting throw in a signal handler, doesn't work; it acts like the exception was unhandled
18:16:10 <izabera> what do you mean?
18:16:10 <ais523> and inspecting the asm at various optimization levels implies that you're not supposed to be able to throw an exception out of a signal handler into the main program
18:16:40 <ais523> izabera: I mean that if I write "throw foo;" in a signal handler, inside a try block in the main program but not in the signal hander, it gets translated to terminate()
18:16:47 <ais523> as usual for an unhandled exception
18:17:24 <ais523> anyway, what I'd like is either a) a way to convert signals to exceptions, or b) another way to accomplish what I'm aiming for (zero-cost segfault handling) that doesn't require throwing an exception in a signal handler
18:17:42 <ais523> clearly I could do it via writing the asm myself but I don't want to have to resort to that
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18:19:02 <izabera> can you show your code?
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18:19:27 <APic> Maybe People in ##ASM can help, even though it is off-topic there…
18:19:36 <ais523> izabera: not trivially as it's one of those compilers that works by pieceing code fragments together
18:19:43 <APic> Can You use longjmp()?
18:19:43 <ais523> let me paste you some compiled output
18:19:55 <ais523> APic: yes but I can't use setjmp()
18:20:10 <ais523> because you have to call it in advance before you know whether it's jumped to or not
18:20:39 <APic> Oh
18:20:46 <ais523> izabera: http://sprunge.us/jEPB
18:20:59 <ais523> see segv_handler for the problematic bit
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18:23:27 <ais523> the context is that I'm trying to make a basic literal (i.e. non-optimizing) PMMN compiler that's as efficient as possible for being non-optimizing
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18:24:48 <izabera> i don't know what pmmn is but i see
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18:27:23 <ais523> izabera: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Portable_Minsky_Machine_Notation
18:27:44 <ais523> I want to know how fast a non-optimizing impl can be to compare my optimizer to it
18:31:42 <APic> ais523: There is http://forum.dlang.org/thread/jjn6dj$193c$1@digitalmars.com but of course it is highly non-portable.
18:31:57 * ais523 looks
18:32:07 <ais523> anything along these lines can be expected to be highly nonportable, really
18:32:12 <APic> Yes
18:32:27 <ais523> ooh, it uses ucontext_t
18:32:30 <ais523> beautiful
18:32:41 <APic> B-)
18:35:46 <ais523> however it seems to rely on ebp/rbp being reliable
18:40:08 <APic> If the Function You return to does not return further itself, i guess You can just skip messing with the Base-Pointer…
18:40:48 <ais523> right, actually it works a bit more simply if ebp isn't pushed
18:40:59 <APic> *nod*
18:41:00 <ais523> I think what you have to do here is to write the userspace handler in asm
18:41:49 * APic thinks so too, that is why i pointed out ##asm B-)
18:50:49 <ais523> but I already know asm :-P
18:51:31 <APic> Good B-)
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19:45:10 <olsner> huh, my desk *does* point zimbabwards
19:48:12 <fizzie> ais523: jitfunge used a stack like that.
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19:49:42 <fizzie> ais523: Not the part about throwing exceptions, but the part without bounds checks, with a segfault handler that patched pop-like things to act as if they had just popped the last 0 out of the stack.
19:50:00 <ais523> right
19:50:08 <ais523> it's trying to do the segfault handler cleanly that's bothering me
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19:50:23 <ais523> you can get the address that faulted, but if you return, it'll try to read that address again
19:50:34 <ais523> which isn't so useful if what was wrong was the address itself
19:51:51 <fizzie> I did it only in the version that had handcrafted code generation, because the "patch things up to look like it worked" operation is hard to figure out in the general case of arbitrary code.
19:52:27 <fizzie> With a finite set of generated forms, it could look at the faulting instruction and act appropriately. Didn't port this over to the LLVM-based thing.
19:56:35 <fizzie> /* .. */ else if (code[0] == 0x8b && (code[1] & 0xc7) == 0x06) /* .. */
19:56:40 <ais523> oh, you actually examined the code?
19:56:46 <fizzie> As above.
19:56:56 <ais523> come to think of it, I could just write this whole program in asm
19:57:02 <ais523> it'd probably be easier
19:57:24 <fizzie> The body of that branch is targetreg = 11-((code[1]>>3) & 0x07); and then I do ctx->uc_mcontext.gregs[targetreg] = 0; to "return" a zero.
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20:25:46 <hppavilion[1]> Last delayed reaction of 2015! WHOO!
20:26:02 <izabera> :)
20:26:36 <ais523> hmm, should I just put this esolang online without implementing it and without writing programs in it to test that it works?
20:26:52 <ais523> I wanted at least a working tested cat
20:27:00 <ais523> and want the possibility to change the spec in case I've missed something
20:28:21 <ais523> `unidecode ?
20:29:05 <ais523> that is quite the codepoint number
20:29:07 <ais523> three Fs?
20:29:18 <ais523> for a question mark?
20:30:15 <fizzie> That's what you get for putting the "halfwidth and fullwidth forms" block to ff00..ffef.
20:30:34 <ais523> what a weird place to put it
20:33:46 <fizzie> `` for d in 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7; do unidecode "$(unicode $d$d$d$d)"; done
20:33:55 <fizzie> `` for d in 8 9 a b c d e f; do unidecode "$(unicode $d$d$d$d)"; done
20:34:02 <HackEgo> ​[U+8888 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-8888] \ [U+9999 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-9999] \ [U+AAAA TAI VIET LETTER LOW VO] \ [U+BBBB HANGUL SYLLABLE MYUC] \ [U+CCCC HANGUL SYLLABLE CEK] \ U+DDDD - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ed b7 9d UTF-16BE: dddd Decimal: &#56797; \ () \ Uppercase: U+DDDD \ Category: Cs (Other, Surrogate) \
20:34:30 <fizzie> Hrm. The output for the non-existing U+DDDD was far too long.
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20:54:33 <quintopia> ais523: what esolang?
20:55:00 <ais523> quintopia: I've discussed two today; the first was PMMN; the second was me running with the "input is appended to the source" idea
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21:11:19 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode ∖
21:11:21 <HackEgo> ​[U+2216 SET MINUS]
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22:56:13 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> But what about if you substitute j for i? Or k? <-- i am guessing you just substitute them in the right side too. i think the quaternions are a (real) banach algebra, which means e**(ix) works by power series as usual, and then i^2 = -1 is _probably_ all you need for the splitup, and j and k have the same property. for x real, that is. if x is some other quaternion that doesn't commute with i, j or k things ...
22:56:13 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:56:19 <oerjan> ... might get messed up.
22:56:49 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] ... might get messed up.
22:56:49 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:57:17 * oerjan suddenly realizes lambdabot might cut that off more...
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23:02:02 <Taneb> oerjan: hppavilion is, I presume, capable of logreading
23:03:06 <oerjan> but does he know that he's capable
23:03:36 <oerjan> does he know that i know that you know that he is capable
23:04:11 <boily> Tanelle, hellørjan, Tanelle, hellørjan.
23:05:32 <oerjan> bohilybilyho
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23:06:48 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i wish to inform you that i know that Taneb knows that you are capable of logreading. just in case lambdabot cuts that off more.
23:07:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Huh? Not exactly sure what you're saying
23:07:31 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, there's lambdabot
23:07:40 <shachaf> oerjan: You know that Taneb knows it? Or just that Taneb says he knows it?
23:07:47 <shachaf> Or presumes it.
23:08:09 <oerjan> shachaf: darn you got me there. also how can be offended by a scow pun if i cannot find it even while logreadin tdnh
23:08:16 <oerjan> *+g
23:08:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ah, by j and k I meant j from the split-complexes and k=epsilon from the duals
23:08:45 <hppavilion[1]> Not j and k from the quaternions or their ilk
23:08:59 * oerjan vaguely guesses shachaf thinks "normally" is punny there, but doesn't quite see how.
23:09:05 <shachaf> the joke is norm
23:09:08 <shachaf> it's not very good
23:10:06 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: oh. well i have no idea whether that's too messed up to be a banach algebra, then.
23:10:31 <hppavilion[1]> Now I must walk home
23:10:34 <boily> what would be a good porthello for funpuns?
23:10:48 <oerjan> basically, you want it to be a ring and reals to be a subring commuting with everything, i think.
23:11:09 <boily> hppavellon[1]. is there snow where you are?
23:11:11 <oerjan> shachaf: oh.
23:11:26 * oerjan swats shachaf for scowness -----###
23:11:59 <oerjan> `rot13 hello
23:12:05 <HackEgo> uryyb
23:12:33 <oerjan> boily: funpuryyb hth
23:12:44 <boily> tdh.
23:13:12 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
23:13:13 <lambdabot> ENVA 042220Z 13016KT CAVOK M06/M16 Q1008 RMK WIND 670FT 15024G34KT
23:13:26 <oerjan> bit frosty.
23:13:33 <oerjan> no snow, at the moment.
23:13:58 <boily> @metar CYUL
23:13:58 <lambdabot> CYUL 042300Z 32005KT 15SM FEW040 FEW240 M15/M21 A3044 RMK SC1CI1 SC TR CI TR SLP315
23:14:31 <boily> cold. I bought a 10kg bag of salt for my stairs. much fun bringing it back home by foot.
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23:36:53 <shachaf> boily: whoa whoa whoa, why would you live somewhere that cold?
23:36:58 <shachaf> @metar KOAK
23:36:59 <lambdabot> KOAK 042253Z 17008KT 9SM -RA BKN032 OVC050 14/09 A2972 RMK AO2 RAB28 SLP064 P0000 T01390094
23:39:08 <Taneb> shachaf: that's like half of the Frogs chorus of Aristophanes!
23:39:59 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa
23:40:14 <shachaf> Taneb knows the croaking chorus from The Frogs of Aristophanes?
23:40:21 <Taneb> YEs
23:40:26 <Taneb> In the original Greek
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23:41:14 <Taneb> And in translation!
23:41:38 <shachaf> can you whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore?
23:41:48 <Taneb> Alas, I cannot
23:42:01 <Taneb> But I am very well acquainted with matters mathematical!
23:42:29 <shachaf> do you have any cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse?
23:42:48 <Taneb> It's equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides!
23:42:54 <shachaf> that's not cheerful
23:43:00 <shachaf> it's dismal
23:43:09 <Taneb> It's all about attitude, shachaf
23:43:15 <shachaf> you're not even giving an upper bound
23:43:16 <Taneb> Get to higher griound
23:43:19 <shachaf> just an equality
23:43:28 <shachaf> Taneb: you never answered my question about dominance and submission, anyway
23:43:38 <Taneb> I do not remember the question
23:44:25 <shachaf> <shachaf> Taneb: so BDSM is out but how does Taneb feel about dominance and submission in non-sexual contexts twh
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23:44:29 <shachaf> in particular i was thinking of theatre
23:44:42 <Taneb> I haven't done much theatre in the past couple of years
23:44:54 <shachaf> what do you think of http://slbkbs.org/kj-ideas.txt
23:45:24 <Taneb> That is certainly a list of ideas
23:47:09 <shachaf> thanks
23:47:27 <shachaf> what's better than ideas? pooches.
23:48:01 <boily> shachaf: because the beer is good.
23:48:25 <shachaf> how's the poutine
23:48:30 <boily> better.
23:48:42 <boily> speaking of poutine, I think I'ma gonna get one.
23:48:51 <shachaf> GOOD THINGS, TOTALLY ORDERED:
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23:48:54 <Taneb> I don't know anywhere to get poutine
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23:48:57 <shachaf> oops
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23:50:57 <shachaf> Taneb: you should read that book, it's great
23:52:09 <Taneb> I will bear that in mind
23:52:41 <Taneb> Unfortunately I have exams right now
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23:57:32 <hppavilion[1]> @tell boily There was snow here, until a few days ago. Which is weird, because Alaska.
23:57:32 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:58:08 <Taneb> I haven't seen it snow since 2011
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00:14:02 <ais523> I've seen snow on a couple of random days in late 2015
00:14:13 <ais523> like, october/novemberish
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00:20:39 * ais523 wonders why Stack Exchange's TOS refers to the user accepting the TOS using the pronoun "it"
00:20:49 <ais523> most such legal documents I've seen just repeat the noun rather than using pronouns
00:20:57 <ais523> to avoid such awkward phrasing
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00:33:07 <\oren\> @metar cyyz
00:33:08 <lambdabot> CYYZ 050000Z 01009KT 15SM SKC M13/M22 A3053 RMK SLP355
00:35:49 <\oren\> @metar cytz
00:35:49 <lambdabot> CYTZ 050000Z AUTO 32007KT 300V360 9SM CLR M12/M20 A3056 RMK SLP357
00:36:51 <\oren\> a bit warmer by the laek
00:37:10 <\oren\> s/ek/ke
00:39:51 <\oren\> I need something to sort the unicode characters in a file
00:41:19 <\oren\> I soppose I could just put each character on a line by itself, then run sort, then delete the linebreaks
00:54:56 <\oren\> bah. GNU fold doesn't do utf8 righjt
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00:59:15 <\oren\> HA! since the'yre all kanji, fold -b60 or any other multiple of 3 works
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01:20:32 <\oren\> ok. so: cat kanjilist | tr -d '\n' | fold -b3 | sort -u | tr -d '\n' | fold -b60 >sortedkanjilist
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01:33:55 <quintopia> ais523: what did you mean by appending input?
01:34:26 <ais523> before running the program, the interp reads the entirety of stdin and appends that to the program
01:34:38 <quintopia> in what language?
01:34:40 <ais523> also there's no introspection/redlection
01:34:44 <ais523> *reflection
01:35:06 <ais523> so you have to redefine every character that could appear in the input to handle itslef
01:35:10 <ais523> and a new esolang I'm working on
01:35:20 <ais523> it's called Takeover
01:35:27 <quintopia> oh. i get it.
01:35:44 <quintopia> looks like fun.
01:43:29 <\oren\> by character, do you mean unicode characters or bytes?
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02:09:42 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: it seems that fold cannot handle multibyte characters of UTF-8 or whatsoever anyway
02:09:53 <lifthrasiir> that is, even not locale-dependent
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03:04:32 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a place I can find the original "A Programming Language" by Kenneth E Iverson for free online?
03:04:45 <hppavilion[1]> Preferably legitimately?
03:04:55 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I found a problem with generalized hyperoperations
03:08:32 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, found it
03:09:27 <adu> hi hppavilion[1]
03:09:37 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what problem?
03:09:38 <hppavilion[1]> Hadu
03:10:12 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Well, I assume we want negative hyperoperations to be the inverse of the positives, correct? So x-y, x/y, etc. would be negative hyperoperations
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03:10:26 <adu> no
03:10:29 <hppavilion[1]> That leads to the issue of Pred(x). Where is it? 0 is already S(x)
03:10:30 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
03:10:43 <hppavilion[1]> adu: What would they be then
03:10:44 <hppavilion[1]> ?
03:10:59 <adu> there are hyperN, hyperNroots, hyperNlogarithms, which would you choose for negatives, roots or logs?
03:11:45 <hppavilion[1]> adu: That's another problem I was going to cover xD
03:11:58 <\oren\> Apparently a portable lithium battery can also be used as a lightweight incendiary grenade.
03:12:00 <adu> hyper2roots and hyper2logs are both division
03:12:10 <adu> hyper3roots are surds/radicals
03:12:19 <adu> hyper3logs are the traditional "logarithm"
03:12:39 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Perhaps we're looking at it wrong?
03:12:50 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps it's not so much a number line we're going for as a number... tripod?
03:12:56 <adu> hyper4-x is generally called super-x, i.e. super-roots and super-logarithms
03:13:08 <adu> hppavilion[1]: no tripod
03:13:18 <hppavilion[1]> Three rays going in directions 120 degrees from each other?
03:13:24 <adu> hppavilion[1]: they're indexed by natural numbers, no negatives are required at all
03:13:42 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Logs/roots are?
03:14:03 <adu> hppavilion[1]: why are you forcing three sets indexed by natural numbers into an structure that doesn't even represent them? stop forcing things to be something they're not
03:14:28 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I'm just thinking about uberoperations xD
03:14:59 <adu> hppavilion[1]: for any function f(x, y) there are two inverse functions, f^(-1, 0)(x, y), and f^(0, -1)(x, y)
03:15:36 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I'm simply making an attempt to generalize the hyperoperations
03:15:45 <adu> you can't put those on a number line, because it's 2D
03:15:54 <hppavilion[1]> Whihc is, of course, what you're trying to do too
03:16:06 <adu> there are quadrillions of mappings between 1D and 2D
03:16:12 <adu> which one do you choose?
03:16:12 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Out of curiousity, what's f^(-1, -1)(x, y) equal to?
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03:16:24 <adu> hppavilion[1]: depends on the function
03:16:59 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I choose to forgo the concept of lines for my hyperoperations and instead have positive numbers, fooative numbers, and barative numbers
03:17:12 <hppavilion[1]> Or fooative numbers, barative numbers, and bazative numbers
03:17:16 <adu> fooative? barative?
03:17:40 <hppavilion[1]> It makes no sense, but it's mathematically rigorous AFAICT and at least usable
03:17:48 <adu> I need to post this convo to the TetrationForum
03:17:49 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I'm not very good at naming things
03:17:54 <hppavilion[1]> Yes
03:17:55 <hppavilion[1]> You do
03:17:59 <adu> lol
03:18:36 <hppavilion[1]> adu: But I think tripod numbers would at least be more useful for generalized hyperoperations than linear numbers are
03:19:09 <hppavilion[1]> Tripod numbers are written *x, &x, and $x
03:19:27 <hppavilion[1]> And there's some sort of logical transformation between them. Or maybe not, maybe we don't need it.
03:20:07 <hppavilion[1]> So, perhaps, $&x -> *x, or something like that
03:20:39 <adu> There is a place for alternative extensions from Integers to Complexes, but IMHO, it's not going to be very popular
03:20:58 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Yes, and the Hyperoperations might just be that place
03:21:10 <adu> so far the only extensions that have any sticking-power among mathematicians are "regular" and "intuitive"
03:21:21 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I mean, how else do we encode negative hyperoperations? I don't see any way they could be anything /but/ the inverse operations
03:21:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what is a negative hyperoperations?
03:21:48 <adu> they're undefined, what's wrong with that?
03:21:50 <hppavilion[1]> adu: a[n]b where n<0
03:21:58 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Because it's less fun that way?
03:22:32 <hppavilion[1]> $&x -> *x, &$x -> *x; $*x -> &x, *$x -> &x; &*x -> $x, *&x -> $x might work
03:22:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: well, if I were to define them, I would try and continue with the standard recursion rule
03:22:43 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Yes, of course
03:23:01 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Then again, you can't do recursion like that with the reals
03:23:07 <adu> but that doesn't work so well with the (x -> x +1) function
03:23:38 <adu> because it doesn't break down like the other operations
03:23:40 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm not generalizing to the integers, I'm generalizing to the reals)
03:24:31 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Hm... Perhaps n[0]m = 0, and n[1]m = n moved away from 0 by m, etc.? It's in line with the original hyperoperations, AFIACT, but not with standard arithmetic
03:24:46 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, shit, forgot to do &&, $$, and **
03:25:06 <hppavilion[1]> && -> $, $$ -> *, ** -> & or something
03:25:23 <adu> Any continuous hyperoperation sequence would also have to have a definition of the "etas"
03:25:26 <hppavilion[1]> It's rotating clockwise 120 degrees instead of 180 degrees, if that makes any sense
03:25:37 <hppavilion[1]> adu: The "eta"s?
03:26:06 <hppavilion[1]> (Of course, you could also go anticlockwise, but then again, you could also just rotate the graph. Really, it's a matter of arbitrary choice)
03:26:50 <adu> eta_N = [0, 1, e^(1/e), 1.6353, ...] and their counterparts eulers_N = [0, 1, e, 3.0885, ...]
03:30:09 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I don't think that's how ... works
03:30:31 <hppavilion[1]> I think ... needs to follow a sequence that the reader has already picked up the pattern in
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04:50:49 <\oren\> QC has warped to the yeah 20016!!
04:50:57 <\oren\> s/yeah/year
04:52:38 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: he means the identities for the two reverse operations
04:52:47 <\oren\> or something
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05:18:58 <Elronnd> \oren\: more like the year 216
05:19:00 <Elronnd> but still cool
05:19:22 <Elronnd> Oh, I see
05:19:30 <Elronnd> Downloading and saving in case it gets fixed
05:19:46 <lifthrasiir> year 2e16
05:19:56 <lifthrasiir> whether it's hexadecimal or decimal
05:21:07 <Elronnd> `printf 2; for i in ${0..16}; do printf 0; done
05:21:14 <HackEgo> 2; for i in ${0..16}; do printf 0; done
05:21:18 <Elronnd> ``printf 2; for i in ${0..16}; do printf 0; done
05:21:20 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `printf: not found
05:21:28 <Elronnd> :(
05:22:10 <Elronnd> ``echo $0
05:22:11 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
05:22:18 <Elronnd> wot?
05:22:22 <Elronnd> ``ls bin
05:22:23 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
05:22:38 <Elronnd> Ohhhhhhh
05:22:39 <lifthrasiir> `printf 2%016d 0
05:22:40 <HackEgo> 20000000000000000 0
05:22:45 <lifthrasiir> wat
05:23:00 <Elronnd> `printf 2%016d 0
05:23:01 <HackEgo> 20000000000000000 0
05:23:14 <lifthrasiir> `printf %x 123
05:23:15 <HackEgo> 0 123
05:23:20 <lifthrasiir> heh
05:23:30 <Elronnd> `echo $0
05:23:31 <HackEgo> ​$0
05:23:40 <Elronnd> :c
05:25:07 -!- Elronnd has set topic: This part of the topic was the first added in 2016 | The international hub for magic gathering and deployment. | Effi's finest fluffy waffles | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/ | This part of the topic was the second added in 2016.
05:27:33 <zzo38> Maybe I can invent the card game a bit like Magic: the Gathering card and Pokemon card and whatever but it is new game, can be call Freecard; I want to avoid the problem made with other designs, by doing in the right way, which means it must be open-source and card game rule play with paper and computer are designed together to ensure it work, and mathematically elegant too.
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06:01:39 <coppro> man, usialtgr is the best keyboard layout
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06:28:59 <zzo38> Are you sure?
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08:41:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Call stack/Manipulation]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46071 * Mroman * (+585) Wouldn't you need to push the current function instead?
08:42:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Call stack/Manipulation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46072&oldid=46071 * Mroman * (+6) * wiki format
08:44:06 <FreeFull> https://dpaste.de/3tGJ/raw I found this in a Chinese spam message
08:46:54 <FreeFull> The email has something to do with Falun Gong
08:48:27 <FreeFull> It links to some website talking against the chinese communist party
08:49:52 <zzo38> They are neither communist nor a party, from what I have heard.
08:50:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Call stack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46073&oldid=46063 * Mroman * (+991) buffering calls & x86
08:52:53 <lifthrasiir> it is a spiritual movement afaik
08:57:35 <fizzie> A man was giving out Falun Gong leaflets at the door of the British Museum.
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09:00:59 <mroman> I presume there are garbage collectors that have a list of pointers to objects
09:01:07 <mroman> or a table the form of
09:01:12 <mroman> | POINTER | LIVE
09:01:52 <mroman> then at some point they scan through the stack space and mark all objecs as live and check for references from these live objects to other objects
09:01:59 <mroman> marking every object reachable as live
09:02:13 <mroman> then just delete all non-live objects
09:02:59 <mroman> so basically it would be an array of struct gc_entry { object* obj; bool alive; }
09:03:37 <mroman> and each object knows the index of it's gc entry
09:03:50 <mroman> in case somebody wants to manually free certain objects at a very specific point
09:04:00 <mroman> @massages-load
09:04:01 <lambdabot> boily said 9d 13h 50m 54s ago: I mapole you.
09:04:01 <lambdabot> boily said 9d 13h 50m 25s ago: (with great force and momentum, might I add.)
09:04:01 <lambdabot> boily said 9d 13h 50m 19s ago: (tsé.)
09:04:01 <lambdabot> boily asked 3d 10h 9m 59s ago: mrhelloman. underdeveloped aliens?
09:04:09 <mroman> what
09:14:20 -!- hppavilion1 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
09:15:01 <mroman> "A good chunk of the web today (and particularly the mobile web) effectively relies on -webkit prefixed CSS properties & features. We wish we lived in a world where web content always included standards-based fallback (or at least multiple-vendor-prefixed fallback), but alas, we do not live in that world. To be successful at rendering the web as it exists, we need to add support for a list of frequently-used -webkit prefixed CSS properties & features."
09:15:07 <mroman> nah
09:15:15 <mroman> google should just severly punish websites that don't use proper HTML/CSS
09:15:16 <FreeFull> fizzie: I'm just wondering what the code from the email is
09:15:49 <mroman> If your site's rank sinks because you don't use proper HTML/CSS than that would be an incentive to change that.
09:16:07 <mroman> and that would be only fair
09:16:17 <mroman> since webpages should generally be viewable in any compliant browser
09:16:37 <myname> best viewed with
09:17:07 <mroman> so it makes sense that a search engine takes the portability of a webpage into account.
09:17:23 <FreeFull> http://freefull.github.io/dice.html Is this proper HTML/CSS/Javascript ?
09:18:08 <zzo38> They are trying to define the webpage rendering too much inside the webpage, even though it should depend on user settings instead.
09:18:35 <mroman> zzo38: totally agree.
09:19:56 <mroman> and it totally pisses me off that pandoc doesn't generate valid HTML
09:21:12 <zzo38> Then fix pandoc
09:22:44 <zzo38> The other thing I would try to do though is to intend that the service can also be used from commandline (with curl, SQLite, or otherwise) as well and don't necessarily require the web browser; clean HTML writing is also help with such thing, although many of my files I make as plain text since many thing I don't even need HTML anyways.
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09:27:45 <fizzie> FreeFull: Sometimes it's just random garbage to confuse things that detect spam by exact comparisons.
09:28:17 <FreeFull> fizzie: Could be
09:32:54 <zzo38> Once I wrote the spam filter that worked by looking for the stuff that was used to avoid spam detection, and other strange stuff (multiple tabs in the subject line, large numbers of spaces in the subject line, non-ASCII subject lines, base64-encoded HTML, etc)
09:33:59 <fizzie> The distribution looks approximately the sort of thing you get if you pick uniformly random characters from the alphabet [A-Za-z0-9 ].
09:34:37 <mroman> looks like html5 output is more valid
09:35:23 <mroman> E-Mails shouldn't contain HTML anyway
09:35:25 <mroman> :)
09:36:04 <zzo38> Yes I agree it should preferably be plaintext
09:36:20 <zzo38> Some people program their computer to reject HTML email
10:15:45 <mroman> there should be more of those
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11:43:04 <boily> `wisdom
11:43:11 <HackEgo> bfjoust/bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
11:43:17 <boily> @massages-loud
11:43:17 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 11h 45m 45s ago: There was snow here, until a few days ago. Which is weird, because Alaska.
11:45:47 <int-e> @snow
11:45:47 <lambdabot> ""
11:45:56 <boily> @metar CYUL
11:45:57 <lambdabot> CYUL 051105Z 24005KT 15SM FEW008 M20/M23 A3063 RMK SF1 SLP378 DENSITY ALT MISG
11:46:12 <boily> @metar LOWI
11:46:13 <lambdabot> LOWI 051120Z 26005KT 180V310 9999 FEW012 SCT070 BKN090 03/00 Q0999 R08/19//95 NOSIG
11:46:40 <int-e> `? winter
11:46:41 <HackEgo> Winter is coming.
11:50:05 <FireFly> @metar ESSB
11:50:06 <lambdabot> ESSB 051120Z 04006KT 9999 -SN FEW003 SCT007 M08/M11 Q1009 R12/29//60
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11:50:32 <FireFly> I forget how to read metars
11:50:49 * FireFly isolates the temperature, skips the rest
11:52:28 <int-e> light snow; few clouds at 300 feet; scattered clouds at 700 feet; pressure 1009 hPa; 04006KT is wind (from 040, 6 knots) and 9999 is visibility on the ground
11:54:18 <int-e> 15sm, hmm
11:54:50 <int-e> ah, also visibility, with unit
11:54:55 <FireFly> ah
11:56:54 <fizzie> I'm not sure M20 still counts as "is coming".
11:56:57 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
11:56:57 <lambdabot> EGLL 051150Z AUTO 21009KT 180V260 9999 SCT005 09/07 Q0984 NOSIG
11:57:04 <fizzie> No sign of it here.
11:57:39 <fizzie> There's snow in Finland, or so I hear.
11:57:41 <fizzie> @metar EFHK
11:57:42 <lambdabot> EFHK 051150Z 36007KT 9999 FEW020 BKN065 BKN200 M18/M21 Q1007 NOSIG
11:57:51 <fizzie> Brrr.
11:58:34 <fizzie> That's almost a 30-degree difference in temperatures.
12:00:08 <b_jonas> Is the portal co-op a free co-op, or one where the players are restricted on which buttons they push on the controller?
12:01:04 <FireFly> In Portal 2? Pretty sure both players have full control
12:01:12 <b_jonas> great
12:01:17 <FireFly> On PC it's online multiplayer, so each player plays on a separate computer
12:01:22 <FireFly> with full controls etc
12:01:22 <b_jonas> ah, I see
12:01:41 <b_jonas> so they're controlling two different in-game humanoid characters?
12:01:50 <FireFly> Yep
12:02:00 <b_jonas> nice, I didn't know portal 2 could do that
12:02:20 <FireFly> Well "humanoid"--they're robots specifically designed for the co-op
12:02:37 <FireFly> rather than two clones of Chell
12:03:33 <b_jonas> This will be interesting, I think I haven't seen this in previous GDQs, although Portal 2 is fast-paced 3D first-person with people jumping around in portals like crazy so I can't usually follow what happens on the screen.
12:04:40 <b_jonas> I wonder what the Super Mario Maker will be like.
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12:05:25 <b_jonas> The GTA 3 any% run will be interesting. So many nice bugs exhibited!
12:06:35 <b_jonas> And of course, the 3D Legend of Zelda games are always amazing.
12:11:27 <FireFly> Especially blindfolded
12:12:12 <FireFly> There's blindfolded punch-out this year, hopefully that'll be great too
12:26:53 <fizzie> Like, on a console, or just two blindfolded people in a room trying to punch each other?
12:27:36 <FireFly> On a console :p
12:30:27 <FireFly> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSr3aXd4XuQ#t=5m45s
12:31:58 <b_jonas> heh
12:52:19 <FireFly> Cloudbuilt looks pretty fun
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13:08:27 <fizzie> FireFly: Sounds like a web technology.
13:21:33 <int-e> "it is very fast paced and high difficulty and emphasis on acrobatic control"... sounds a bit too serious to be fun ;)
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15:21:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46074&oldid=45976 * Albedo * (+249) major overhaul of the layout
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15:21:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46075&oldid=46074 * Albedo * (+0) /* Table with all cloning and deletion directions */ typo
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15:53:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tonoco]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46076&oldid=40979 * * (-6) /* Box Reference */
15:54:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tonoco]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46077&oldid=46076 * * (-6) /* Control Flow */
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17:20:14 <Taneb> I have my "Eodermdrome" exam in 40 minutes
17:20:44 <myname> how so?
17:21:05 <Taneb> myname, that's when the exam was scheduled
17:21:12 <Taneb> It's on computation by graph transformation
17:21:16 <myname> ah
17:23:03 <Taneb> Incidentally, "forty" is the only number spelt in English with its letters in alphabetical order
17:23:29 <Taneb> > sort "forty"
17:23:31 <lambdabot> "forty"
17:23:42 <Taneb> > sort "eight"
17:23:44 <lambdabot> "eghit"
17:23:50 <myname> it isn÷t
17:23:55 <myname> "a" is also
17:24:04 <Taneb> A is an article, not a number
17:24:11 <Taneb> You can't add three to a
17:24:16 <myname> ah, number
17:24:19 <int-e> > reverse . sort $ "one" -- arguably sorted as well
17:24:21 <lambdabot> "one"
17:24:22 <myname> i overread that
17:24:39 <Taneb> int-e, that's maximally unsorted!
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19:03:05 <quintopia> Taneb: this is great for a trivia contests thx
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19:04:55 <hppavilion[1]> If I'm making a language in the spirit of unicode
19:06:07 <hppavilion[1]> Should I make the language based on english syntactically (e.g. variables are [a-zA-Z_][a-zA-Z0-9_]*, and Δ an operator), or should I make it so that the entire language allows for a wide variety of languages to be used (Δ would be a variable)?
19:06:24 <hppavilion[1]> I have a feeling the second one is more correct, but the first makes code look cooler xD
19:10:11 <Taneb> quintopia, "four" is the only number in the English language with as many letters as its value
19:11:57 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: What about x=1?
19:12:09 <hppavilion[1]> x where x=1, that is
19:12:23 <hppavilion[1]> I count polynomials as numbers because "close enough"
19:12:32 <hppavilion[1]> (and in this case, monomials)
19:12:37 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], polynomials aren't words in the English language
19:13:10 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: x is a term, and thus could be used alone in a text ("so if we assume that x is equal to 1...")
19:13:13 <hppavilion[1]> Therefor it's a word
19:13:41 <hppavilion[1]> *Therefour
19:13:54 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], I disagree; we use names in text (such as "hppavilion[1]") but I wouldn't put them in a Crossword or play them in Scrabble
19:14:59 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Crossword clue: "This man attempted to take over the world (vertical 12+5i) (vertical is, like, up and down (so towards your face when looking directly down))
19:15:00 <hppavilion[1]> "
19:15:27 <hppavilion[1]> Answer: Napoleon, but good luck writing it in the 3d complex manifold crossword puzzle.
19:15:49 <myname> the definition of a word is actually quite hard
19:16:21 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Like in the case of vertical?
19:16:30 <myname> https://youtu.be/Vu3eDf4p0r0
19:16:43 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Internet is filtered at my location. Can you give me the tl;dr?
19:16:52 <hppavilion[1]> Well, the aif;cw?
19:16:58 <myname> words are weird
19:17:31 <hppavilion[1]> ("America is fascist; couldn't watch")
19:19:23 <hppavilion[1]> myname: What do you think of the idea of Unilang? A unified, unicode-based declarative programming language
19:20:37 <myname> how so? on the "a language like unicode" thing i first thought youkd want to make something with as much useless and clattered stuf as possible
19:20:47 <myname> but then again, there is already c++
19:21:14 <hppavilion[1]> myname: xD
19:21:26 <hppavilion[1]> Yes, it is pretty cluttered and will feature some pretty useless things xD
19:22:04 <hppavilion[1]> The idea is a standard sort of programming language. Not a "global overarching standard" like unicode is, of course, but a sort of option language based on various other languages for expressing algorithms and such
19:22:13 <hppavilion[1]> In a way a computer can parse and evaluate
19:22:24 <myname> like, assembly?
19:22:46 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yes, but higher-level. Obviously.
19:22:57 <myname> like, c?
19:23:02 <hppavilion[1]> myname: A language entirely based on arithmetical expressions
19:23:08 <hppavilion[1]> Closer to Haskell than ASM
19:23:20 <hppavilion[1]> But not as beautiful as Haskell
19:23:56 <myname> "i want sometjing like haskell, but less beautiful"
19:24:02 <hppavilion[1]> Because Haskell is the goddamn <insert beautiful celebrity here> of programming languages.
19:24:14 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Also, weirder
19:24:24 <myname> i do like the idea of curry
19:24:49 <myname> it's like "hey, let's take that language and put more awesomeness in it"
19:27:14 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It takes some inspiration from APL
19:27:38 <myname> huh?
19:27:42 <myname> how so
19:28:07 <myname> it looks prologish
19:28:17 <myname> also, i like the non-determinism
19:28:33 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Well. I read a fraction of the Wiki article on APL and took out the ideas I liked
19:28:42 <myname> a?b = a
19:28:42 <hppavilion[1]> And put them into UniLang
19:28:46 <myname> a?b = b
19:28:57 <myname> is tje definition of ? in curry
19:29:02 <hppavilion[1]> a?b = OMGWTF
19:29:10 <hppavilion[1]> myname: What does ? do though?
19:29:23 <myname> it chooses either a or b
19:29:29 <hppavilion[1]> myname: At random?
19:29:49 <myname> yes, but in a way that it still fits all boundaries
19:29:52 <hppavilion[1]> Oooooooooooooh
19:29:54 <hppavilion[1]> Whoooooooooa
19:30:29 <myname> also
19:30:36 <myname> insert x ys = x:ys
19:30:49 <myname> insert x (y:ys) = y: insert x ys
19:30:58 <myname> puts an element anywhere in a list
19:31:27 <hppavilion[1]> mindblown :: Bool
19:31:32 <hppavilion[1]> mindblown = True
19:32:23 <myname> permutation (x:xs) = insert x (permutation xs)
19:34:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46078&oldid=46075 * Albedo * (+8) /* File related I/O */ text formatting
19:35:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46079&oldid=46078 * Albedo * (-2) /* File related I/O */ typos
19:35:40 <myname> does anybody have contact to the beeswax author?
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20:51:35 <ais523> `? coalgebra
20:51:54 <HackEgo> coalgebra? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:52:17 <Taneb> A coalgebra is just like in high school maths but with the arrows reversed
20:52:26 <ais523> but high school maths doesn't have arrows
20:52:33 <ais523> except occasionally above vectors
20:52:57 <myname> reversed vector arrows would be funny
20:53:09 <Taneb> ais523, that I am afraid was most of the joke
20:53:10 <shachaf> depends on how high
20:54:03 <ais523> so are coroutines just routines with reversed arrows?
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20:55:27 <myname> goroutines are just routines that walk instread of running
20:56:44 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/robots,/Lambek'\''s lemma, &/' wisdom/tanebvention
20:56:47 <HackEgo> No output.
20:57:22 <shachaf> Taneb is obviously an expert in coalgebras, having invented Lambek's lemma
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21:01:20 <Phantom_Hoover> `? tanebventioin
21:01:22 <HackEgo> tanebventioin? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:01:23 <Phantom_Hoover> `? tanebvention
21:01:24 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, robots, cigars, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
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21:02:59 <shachaf> did Taneb invent Lambek's lemma directly or did Taneb invent Lambek who then invented the lemma
21:03:04 <shachaf> are inventions transitive
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21:03:22 <Taneb> shachaf, I do not think inventions are transitive but I do not think they are anti-transitive either
21:03:56 <hppavilion[1]> So here's an idea for an Esosport
21:04:21 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: um, all soprts are eso
21:04:24 <b_jonas> all sports
21:04:28 <hppavilion[1]> Fixed-parser esolang design
21:04:31 <b_jonas> it's the default
21:04:37 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Yes, but this is a sport based around Eso/langs/
21:04:47 <hppavilion[1]> An individual or group provides a parser to the players
21:04:57 <hppavilion[1]> Each player or group of players takes it and attempts to make a language
21:05:12 <hppavilion[1]> Whoever makes the best language, at the discretion of a group of judges or the host, wins.
21:07:32 <hppavilion[1]> "Best" may mean most eso (pure) or most logical and usable (working with what you have)
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21:12:48 <hppavilion[2]> b_jonas: What do you think of that idea?
21:12:56 <hppavilion[2]> I mayormaynot already have a lexer and parser prepared for it
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21:27:45 <hppavilion[2]> parser-alpha
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21:31:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Parser Alpha]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46080 * Hppavilion1 * (+314) Created Page
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21:49:46 <haavard> What about this: an esolang interpreter/compiler for which you have to figure out the language
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21:50:32 <MDude> So it would be a different language for each instalation, but stay consistant over time?
21:52:13 <ais523> I think haavard just means that you get the interp as a binary blob (or possibly even with source code) and you have to figure out how the language works by experimentation
21:52:24 <ais523> some of my original plans for Snowflake work like that but even worse
21:52:27 <ais523> but I toned it down a lot
21:52:50 <haavard> Maybe even an online form to which you submit your program, so there's no source or disassembly available
21:53:16 <haavard> And yeah, some language you have to figure out, not an existing one
21:54:34 <Taneb> ais523, it could even be a network black box
21:54:48 <ais523> right
21:55:02 <ais523> in which case I hope it gives useful error messages :-)
21:55:13 <ais523> [>+>->[>]><>>>,>.[Hello, world!]]>++
21:55:17 <ais523> there's a hello world in takeover
21:55:37 <MDude> http://esolangs.org/wiki/TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL
21:55:41 <ais523> I decided to use the same 8 chars as BF to confuse people (after I realised I'd naturally chosen a bunch of them anyway)
21:55:45 <haavard> I see a fish in there
21:55:50 <ais523> the language is unrelated
21:56:01 <MDude> It is related.
21:56:06 <ais523> anyone want to guess how the language works based on that?
21:56:12 <ais523> MDude: well only in that it's an esolang
21:56:16 <MDude> No.
21:56:47 <MDude> It is also related in that you could have a website that interprets a language similar to TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL
21:57:09 <Taneb> ais523, I'm guessing that in some circumstances [ and ] work as string delimiters
21:57:09 <MDude> But instead of having the language be based on the time of day, it could be different for each user ID.
21:57:16 <ais523> Taneb: indeed
21:57:25 <ais523> and you're also correct that they don't /always/ work as string delimeters
21:57:28 <MDude> So you would create an account and get a randomly generated language.
21:57:44 <ais523> MDude: oh, we're in separate conversations
21:57:52 <Taneb> ais523, are they sometimes procedure delimiters?
21:57:55 <ais523> I was talking about Takeover, you were apparently talking about the new TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL
21:58:01 <MDude> And it wouldn't tell you which variation it is, do you'd have to reverse-engineer it.
21:58:15 <ais523> Taneb: they sometimes aren't delimeters at all; there isn't much of a distinction between string and procedure delimiters
21:58:38 <ais523> this explains why we were disagreeing with each other :-)
22:00:24 <Taneb> Hmm
22:00:34 <Taneb> They do, at least in that excerpt, seem to always be matching
22:00:36 <ais523> (my previous comment was to MDude)
22:00:37 <Taneb> This may be a coincidence
22:00:47 <ais523> Taneb: I did that to make the program easier to write
22:01:02 <ais523> the second [ and first ] have no reason to match each other, but the first and last have to match
22:01:16 <ais523> and thus I made the ones inside match too so that they didn't throw off the matching of the outside ones
22:02:18 <ais523> here's an equivalent program to that one (but slightly longer): [>+>->]-[[><>>>,>.[Hello, world!]]>++
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22:06:16 <ais523> most of the awkwardness in the language is to do with the use-mention distinction, which is kind-of more fluid than normal
22:07:18 <Taneb> Interesting
22:07:52 <Taneb> This is a very small rosetta stone to decode a language from, and that's not something I'm hugely good at in the first place
22:08:14 <ais523> indeed, I wasn't really expecting someone to figure it out, just as a thought process to see how difficult it would be
22:08:20 <ais523> I haven't written any larger programs yet
22:08:39 <ais523> even the hello world took a while to get working; I wrote it correctly the first time but was failing due to interp bugs
22:09:20 <haavard> That's the fun part
22:09:25 <haavard> "Which program is wrong?"
22:10:02 <ais523> well I got suspicious when the debug mode said that none of the commands were doing anything at all
22:10:33 <haavard> I really hope the example programs I pulled off the Internet are actually correct, otherwise using them as test cases would be a bad idea
22:11:38 <ais523> haavard: which language?
22:11:41 <ais523> or is that a secret?
22:11:50 <haavard> ><>, fish
22:13:29 <ais523> ah right
22:13:34 <ais523> that comes up at PPCG every now and then
22:13:51 <ais523> (also I don't get which PPCG caught on at Stack Exchange when it's one of the worst possible platforms for that sort of thing)
22:15:19 <haavard> Yeah, I was pretty amazed when I discovered someone actually wrote programs for my language :p
22:16:49 <ais523> oh, that's your language?
22:16:57 <ais523> it's about the right sort of power to make codegolf interesting
22:17:03 <ais523> (I suspect Takeover might be a little too weak
22:17:04 <ais523> )
22:17:09 <ais523> let me post an interp and the spec
22:17:58 <haavard> Yeah, it's something I puzzled up years ago
22:18:30 <haavard> Writing a new interpreter now, the old one probably sucks :P
22:19:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46081&oldid=46048 * Ais523 * (+15) /* T */ +[[Takeover]]
22:20:44 <shachaf> ais523: Are coalgebras found in naughty category theorists' stockings?
22:20:57 <ais523> hmm, not sure
22:23:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Takeover]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46082 * Ais523 * (+17083) new esolang
22:23:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Yearcats]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46083&oldid=41593 * Ais523 * (+26) happy new year
22:24:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:2016]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46084 * Ais523 * (+11) happy new year
22:25:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46085&oldid=46039 * Ais523 * (+14) +[[Takeover]] (wow this list is getting long)
22:26:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46086&oldid=46027 * Ais523 * (+67) /* Takeover */ new section
22:27:37 <ais523> Taneb: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Takeover if you want to see how the language works :-)
22:28:52 <Taneb> Thanks :)
22:29:06 <Taneb> btw what I've been calling my Eodermdrome exam went well today
22:29:53 <ais523> you had an exam on Eodermdrome?
22:30:29 <Taneb> I had an exam on programming by graph transformation
22:31:17 <Taneb> Which... actually does it about as differently from Eodermdrome as possible
22:31:25 <Taneb> It's based on directed graphs, for a start
22:32:16 <Taneb> ais523, if you're up to date with all the various graph programming languages used by precisely one department in one university, the lecturer is the creator of GP and GP2
22:32:29 <ais523> sadly I'm not :-(
22:32:47 <ais523> although having labels on the nodes, and directed arcs, makes programming a lot easier
22:33:10 <Taneb> Is https://www.cs.york.ac.uk/plasma/publications/pdf/Plump.WRS.11.pdf publicly accessible?
22:33:19 <fizzie> Apparently.
22:33:32 <Taneb> That's the design of GP 2
22:33:36 <Taneb> As you can tell from the title of the paper
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22:41:38 <boily> @metar CYUL
22:41:39 <lambdabot> CYUL 052200Z 23009KT 15SM FEW240 M13/M17 A3052 RMK CI1 CI TR SLP342
22:41:45 <boily> woohoo. M13.
22:41:50 <shachaf> @metar KOAK
22:41:51 <lambdabot> KOAK 052153Z 24006KT 10SM FEW013 BKN032 OVC045 11/09 A2972 RMK AO2 RAE40 SLP065 P0000 T01110089
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22:43:03 <boily> hellochaf.
22:43:11 <shachaf> yowly
22:43:20 <shachaf> @yowly
22:43:20 <lambdabot> Somewhere in DOWNTOWN BURBANK a prostitute is OVERCOOKING a LAMB CHOP!!
22:44:31 <boily> I am not a pinhead. I am sane.
22:44:40 <shachaf> @yow!
22:44:41 <lambdabot> Mr and Mrs PED, can I borrow 26.7% of the RAYON TEXTILE production of
22:44:41 <lambdabot> the INDONESIAN archipelago?
22:46:30 <boily> @metar RKSI
22:46:31 <lambdabot> RKSI 052230Z 13005KT 9999 SCT040 M02/M11 Q1027 NOSIG
22:56:31 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: weeee).
22:58:27 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:04:06 <boily> @metar ENVA
23:04:06 <lambdabot> ENVA 052250Z 13009KT CAVOK M12/M17 Q1013 RMK WIND 670FT 12009KT
23:04:26 <boily> hellørjan.
23:05:45 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:06:34 <oerjan> brrroily
23:08:23 <oerjan> the yr.no weather forecast for my place says about -9, also a warning about wildfire danger in places in the region without snow.
23:08:49 <oerjan> perhaps we will have another strangely dry january like 2 years ago
23:09:34 <ais523> "There are of course, certain conditions under which the detector will not indicate the presence of ice: (a) When there is no ice."
23:10:00 <oerjan> shocking
23:10:48 <ais523> there was only one other condition listed
23:10:52 <oerjan> looks like it may stay dry but get a little less cold
23:11:06 <Taneb> "When there is no ice, or when the detector is broken"
23:12:35 <ais523> the other condition was about a paragraph but boiled down to "when there is not enough ice to detect"
23:12:42 <ais523> I feel like they missed quite a few, such as that one
23:13:03 <Taneb> "When there is WAY TOO MUCH ICE"
23:13:50 <fizzie> @metar EFHK
23:13:50 <lambdabot> EFHK 052250Z 02009KT 9999 FEW030 BKN053 M20/M22 Q1010 NOSIG
23:13:57 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
23:13:58 <lambdabot> EGLL 052250Z AUTO VRB02KT 5000 BR OVC047 06/06 Q0989 NOSIG
23:14:12 <fizzie> Aw, the temperature differential's not getting higher; 26 now.
23:15:38 <shachaf> M20?
23:15:46 <shachaf> When I was in EFHK it was 30.
23:16:32 <fizzie> That was probably not in January.
23:16:38 <shachaf> Correct.
23:16:48 <Taneb> @metar EGNT
23:16:49 <lambdabot> EGNT 052250Z 11013KT 090V150 9999 -RA BKN009 06/06 Q0992
23:16:49 <fizzie> I doubt it's ever been 30 at EFHK in January. Well, indoors maybe.
23:17:06 <Taneb> I hear that some of those numbers represent temperature
23:17:13 <fizzie> Taneb: That's the 06.
23:17:27 <Taneb> ...temperature 80 miles away from here
23:17:30 <fizzie> It can easily be 00 at EFHK in January, though, so M20 does count as pretty cold.
23:18:18 <shachaf> If you ask me M20 is too cold.
23:18:22 <ais523> @metar EGBB
23:18:22 <lambdabot> EGBB 052250Z VRB03KT 3900 RA SCT006 BKN049 06/06 Q0989
23:18:49 <fizzie> shachaf: The Finnish weather site I usually use says it's "feels like" value is -30°.
23:19:04 <ais523> temperature = dew point, does that mean no humidity?
23:19:10 <boily> M20 is interesting. my moustache and beard freeze.
23:19:27 <boily> ais523: it means 100% humidity hth
23:20:54 <fizzie> The forecast says it'll stay that cold until Friday (nightly lows at -25, -26, -26) but then on Sunday day it'll be at 0 (-7 at night).
23:20:55 <ais523> hmm, Wikipedia's example METAR has the wind at 120°, varying from 290° to 310°
23:20:59 <ais523> something seems wrong with tis
23:21:00 <ais523> *this
23:21:32 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:21:33 <ais523> fizzie: what temperature is it like indoors? and how often do you have to go outdoors in such conditions?
23:21:47 <boily> metacircular winds.
23:22:17 <fizzie> Indoor temperatures generally don't vary, unless you're stuck in an old house or something. They know about insulation.
23:25:22 <ais523> hmm, it's not raining here at the university, but it apparently is at the airort
23:25:47 <ais523> although given the apparent lack of wind, it might take a while for the rain to get here, if indeed it's even moving in this direction
23:25:51 <fizzie> Well, I mean, they do vary in the sense that in the summer indoor temperatures are unbearably hot for a few days, because they *don't* know about air conditioning.
23:26:58 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever lived anywhere with inadequate heating or drafty rooms for a long period of time.
23:27:44 <Taneb> The university here has a weather station, but lambdabot doesn't know about it
23:28:29 <fizzie> This current place is all-electric heating, so the indoor temperature is whatever we configure the radiators at, and then it just costs more. I think we're paying some ridiculous multiple of what our power bill in Finland used to be, here.
23:29:51 <fizzie> (District heating is very widespread in Finland, AIUI.)
23:30:06 <oerjan> <Taneb> quintopia, "four" is the only number in the English language with as many letters as its value <-- also, all others converge to it after a few steps
23:30:16 <ais523> electric heating is pretty rare in the UK
23:30:25 <ais523> most places have gas-based central heating
23:30:58 <fizzie> ais523: We don't even have a gas hob, which was somewhat difficult to arrange here.
23:31:15 <oerjan> in norwegian, 2=to, 3=tre, 4=fire all work...
23:31:23 <Taneb> My parents house has gas heating and a wood-burning stove
23:31:26 <ais523> hobs/ovens are about equally split gas/electric in my experience
23:31:45 <ais523> ah right, wood/coal heating is not unheard of
23:32:04 <ais523> you can buy coal/charcoal/firewood at pretty much any petrol station, so presumably there are people who do
23:32:19 <ais523> (en_GB:petrol = en_US:gasoline)
23:32:21 <fizzie> Finnish probably doesn't have any sorted numbers.
23:32:45 <oerjan> fizzie: not about sorting
23:32:59 <oerjan> hm although
23:33:10 <fizzie> Oh, this was something else? Right, I didn't even verify.
23:33:44 <ais523> fizzie: numbers whose length equals their numerical value
23:33:44 <fizzie> You can buy charcoal and firewood at pretty much any petrol station in Finland too, but I've always assumed those are mostly for people doing cooking outdoors.
23:34:09 <fizzie> We've got viisi (5).
23:34:23 <ais523> for some reason I'm reminded of Last ReSort, which similarly compares two numbers in different units
23:34:45 <fizzie> Kahdeksan (8, length 9) and yhdeksän (9, length 8) are just the wrong way around.
23:34:59 <ais523> those are weird names for numbers!
23:35:06 <oerjan> no. 1=en, ei, ett is pretty sorted. in all genders. i think that's the only number though.
23:35:07 <ais523> (8 and 9, that is; 5 seems reasonable)
23:35:34 <ais523> words which have no repeated letters, and letters in alphabetical order
23:35:47 <ais523> are much loved by NetHack players because you can spell them in prompts
23:35:51 <fizzie> Yksi, kaksi, kolme, neljä, viisi, kuusi, seitsemän, kahdeksan, yhdeksän, kymmenen; yksitoista, kaksitoista, kolmetoista, neljätoista, viisitoista, kuusitoista, seitsemäntoista, kahdeksantoista, yhdeksäntoista; kaksikymmentä, kaksikymmentäyksi, kaksikymmentäkaksi, ... and then it's mostly systematic.
23:35:55 * ais523 tries to remember what the longest words with its letters in sorted order is
23:35:56 <fizzie> They're pretty long.
23:36:04 <fizzie> As you'd expect, in colloquial speech people abbreviate them.
23:36:14 <Taneb> ais523, spoonfeed is longest in reverse order
23:36:43 <ais523> I once borrowed a book from a library which was basically just about words with unusual properties, including records
23:36:49 <ais523> it's where I got the name "eodermdrome" from
23:37:04 <oerjan> <ais523> something seems wrong with tis <-- the difference is about 180, so presumably it's a toward/away from swap
23:37:20 <ais523> (it was discussing the shortest possible word with a nonplanar adjacency graph)
23:37:29 <fizzie> oerjan: It shouldn't have one, though, according to the METAR decoded instructions I usually look at.
23:38:57 <ais523> `` wc /usr/share/dict/words
23:39:04 <ais523> I hope we have a dictionary in HackEgo
23:39:08 <HackEgo> wc: /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory
23:39:09 <ais523> more fun than doing things locally
23:39:12 <ais523> bleh
23:39:39 <fizzie> The numbers 11..19 are all of the form "<X>toista" where "<X>" is one of 1..9; the suffix "-toista" means approximately "of the second".
23:39:58 <fizzie> So 17 -> "7 of the second [set of ten]".
23:40:28 <fizzie> We don't even have special words for 11 or 12.
23:41:53 <ais523> where is HackEgo physically?
23:41:55 <ais523> `help
23:41:55 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:41:58 <fizzie> Also when the sorted numbers came up, the /usr/share/dict/words on my work-workstation only had English sorted words for up to length of about 6 when disallowing repetitions.
23:42:09 <fizzie> "almost" was one of them.
23:42:48 <fizzie> I made the obligatory Perl oneliner, it involved a join("", sort { ord($a) <=> ord($b) } split //) construct.
23:42:56 * ais523 geolocates the IP
23:43:15 <fizzie> ais523: The fshg browser is not physically where HackEgo is, sorry.
23:43:21 <fizzie> There's a reverse-proxy setup involved.
23:43:32 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
23:43:36 <ais523> fizzie: I'm using its /whois IP
23:43:41 <fizzie> Oh, right.
23:43:47 <ais523> which is presumably how it connects to the internet
23:43:56 <ais523> Finland, it seems
23:43:58 <fizzie> I just thought `help was related, and didn't think it's probably not cloaked.
23:44:05 <ais523> wait no
23:44:08 <ais523> I missed a digit
23:44:15 <fizzie> That sounded very unlikely.
23:44:22 <ais523> Ontario, Canada
23:44:23 -!- Trinity has joined.
23:44:23 -!- Trinity has quit (Changing host).
23:44:23 -!- Trinity has joined.
23:44:31 <fizzie> I'd been assuming CloudAtCost is in the states somewhere.
23:44:33 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, are you runing hackego these days?
23:44:41 <ais523> `fetch http://ftp.ca.debian.org/debian/pool/main/s/scowl/wamerican_7.1-1_all.deb
23:44:44 <HackEgo> 2016-01-05 23:44:32 URL:http://ftp.ca.debian.org/debian/pool/main/s/scowl/wamerican_7.1-1_all.deb [272134/272134] -> "wamerican_7.1-1_all.deb" [1]
23:44:45 <oerjan> ais523: my understanding is that the finnish words for 8 and 9 are derivations adding a suffix -ks[aä]n to a form of 2 and 1 respectively
23:45:13 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Not really, just sort of helping out occasionally since I've got a thing on the system for maintaining the wiki.
23:45:35 <ais523> `ar t wamerican*.deb
23:45:36 <HackEgo> ar: invalid option -- ' ' \ Usage: ar [emulation options] [-]{dmpqrstx}[abcDfilMNoPsSTuvV] [--plugin <name>] [member-name] [count] archive-file file... \ ar -M [<mri-script] \ commands: \ d - delete file(s) from the archive \ m[ab] - move file(s) in the archive \ p - print file(s) found in the archive \
23:45:58 <fizzie> oerjan: I've never thought about that, but it sounds even almost plausible.
23:46:12 <ais523> what kind of crazy ar impl is this?
23:46:14 <ais523> oh
23:46:18 <ais523> `` ar t wamerican*.deb
23:46:19 <HackEgo> debian-binary \ control.tar.gz \ data.tar.gz
23:46:31 <ais523> `` ar x wamerican*.deb data.tar.gz
23:46:33 <HackEgo> No output.
23:46:45 <ais523> `` tar tfz data.tar.gz
23:46:48 <HackEgo> ​./ \ ./usr/ \ ./usr/share/ \ ./usr/share/dict/ \ ./usr/share/dict/american-english \ ./usr/share/doc/ \ ./usr/share/doc/wamerican/ \ ./usr/share/doc/wamerican/README.Debian \ ./usr/share/doc/wamerican/changelog.Debian.gz \ ./usr/share/doc/wamerican/copyright \ ./usr/share/doc/wamerican/wamerican.scowl-word-lists-used \ ./usr/share/man/ \ ./usr/s
23:47:35 <ais523> `` tar -xzOf data.tar.gz ./usr/share/dict/american-english > dict-words
23:47:37 <HackEgo> No output.
23:47:41 <ais523> `` wc dict-words
23:47:42 <HackEgo> ​ 99171 99171 938848 dict-words
23:47:45 <ais523> there we go
23:47:50 <ais523> `` rm data.tar.gz
23:47:53 <HackEgo> No output.
23:47:58 <ais523> `` rm wamercan*.deb
23:47:59 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wamercan*.deb': No such file or directory
23:48:03 <ais523> `` rm wamerican*.deb
23:48:07 <HackEgo> No output.
23:48:15 <zgrep> `` echo No output.
23:48:16 <HackEgo> No output.
23:48:22 <ais523> I should have got a Canadian list really but American is the default
23:49:40 <ais523> `` grep a*b*c*d*e*f*g*h*i*j*k*l*m*n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z* dict-words
23:49:41 <HackEgo> A \ A's \ AA's \ AB's \ ABM's \ AC's \ ACTH's \ AI's \ AIDS's \ AM's \ AOL \ AOL's \ ASCII's \ ASL's \ ATM's \ ATP's \ AWOL's \ AZ's \ AZT's \ Aachen \ Aaliyah \ Aaliyah's \ Aaron \ Abbas \ Abbasid \ Abbott \ Abbott's \ Abby \ Abby's \ Abdul \ Abdul's \ Abe \ Abe's \ Abel \ Abel's \ Abelard \ Abelson \ Abelson's \ Aberdeen \ Aberdeen's \ Abernathy
23:49:46 <ais523> hmm
23:49:53 <ais523> `` grep ^a*b*c*d*e*f*g*h*i*j*k*l*m*n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z*$ dict-words
23:49:54 <HackEgo> a \ abbess \ abbey \ abbot \ abet \ abhor \ abhors \ ably \ abort \ abuzz \ accent \ accept \ access \ accost \ ace \ aces \ achoo \ achy \ act \ ad \ add \ adder \ adders \ adds \ adept \ ado \ adopt \ ads \ adz \ aegis \ aery \ affix \ afoot \ aft \ aglow \ ago \ ah \ ahoy \ ail \ ails \ aim \ aims \ air \ airs \ airy \ all \ allot \ allow \ allo
23:50:03 <ais523> so how do I sort by length
23:50:10 <ais523> sort doesn't have an option for that
23:50:31 <fizzie> I usually just print a length column in front.
23:50:36 <fizzie> Then sort -nr and then cut it out.
23:51:05 <ais523> `` grep ^a*b*c*d*e*f*g*h*i*j*k*l*m*n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z*$ dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:51:09 <HackEgo> No output.
23:51:12 <ais523> hmm
23:51:12 <fizzie> `` grep ^a*b*c*d*e*f*g*h*i*j*k*l*m*n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z*$ dict-words | perl -ne 'print length($_), " ", $_;' | sort -nr | head
23:51:14 <HackEgo> 8 billowy \ 7 knotty \ 7 glossy \ 7 floppy \ 7 floors \ 7 effort \ 7 choppy \ 7 choosy \ 7 chintz \ 7 chinos
23:51:22 <ais523> `` grep ^a*b*c*d*e*f*g*h*i*j*k*l*m*n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z*$ dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a, $_; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:51:23 <HackEgo> billowy \ abbess \ abhors \ accent \ accept \ access \ accost \ adders \ almost \ begins \ bellow \ billow \ biopsy \ cellos \ chills \ chilly \ chimps \ chinos \ chintz \ choosy \ choppy \ effort \ floors \ floppy \ glossy \ knotty \ abbey \ abbot \ abhor \ abort \ abuzz \ achoo \ adder \ adept \ adopt \ aegis \ affix \ afoot \ aglow \ allot \ all
23:51:27 <ais523> there we go
23:51:36 <ais523> not very many such sorted words, it seems
23:52:10 <fizzie> I always even just print length($_) instead of the actual length (counts the newline), since it doesn't change the ordering.
23:52:33 <fizzie> I remember biopsy and almost from the list.
23:52:45 <oerjan> `` find | grep -i word
23:52:56 <HackEgo> ​./bin/rainwords \ ./bin/words \ ./bin/word \ ./dict-words \ ./share/WordData \ ./share/WordData/French \ ./share/WordData/GermanMedical \ ./share/WordData/Brazilian \ ./share/WordData/EngUs \ ./share/WordData/Finnish \ ./share/WordData/Bulgarian \ ./share/WordData/Ogerman \ ./share/WordData/EngGb \ ./share/WordData/Catalan \ ./share/WordData/Spa
23:53:15 <ais523> ooh, we have WordData too
23:53:25 <fizzie> It may not be in a reasonable format.
23:53:29 <ais523> but I think that's ngrammed
23:53:45 <oerjan> `` find | grep -i word | grep -v share/WordData
23:53:48 <HackEgo> ​./bin/rainwords \ ./bin/words \ ./bin/word \ ./dict-words \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/word.i \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/rainwords.i \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/words.i \ ./.hg/store/data/p7zip__9.20.1/_d_o_c_s/_m_a_n_u_a_l/switches/password.htm.i \ ./.hg/store/data/git-master/t/t4034-diff-words.sh.i \ ./.hg/store/data/share/_word_data \ ./.hg/store/data/share
23:54:02 <shachaf> `` ghc -e 'interact $ unlines . sortBy (compare `on` length) . filter (\x -> x == sort x) . lines' < dict-words
23:54:03 <HackEgo> bash: ghc: command not found
23:54:05 <shachaf> scow
23:54:11 <oerjan> `` find | grep -i word | grep -v share/WordData | grep -v '\.hg'
23:54:15 <HackEgo> ​./bin/rainwords \ ./bin/words \ ./bin/word \ ./dict-words \ ./wisdom/word \ ./wisdom/password
23:54:17 <ais523> `` grep ^a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?$ dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a, $_; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:54:18 <HackEgo> No output.
23:54:33 <ais523> `` grep ^a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?$ dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a, $_; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:54:34 <HackEgo> No output.
23:54:40 <ais523> what did I get wrong there?
23:54:46 <oerjan> shachaf: Gregor didn't reinstall ghc when he moved servers
23:55:04 <oerjan> ais523: no quotes?
23:55:17 <ais523> shouldn't have mattered, but maybe it does
23:55:22 <Taneb> 9 aegilops
23:55:24 <ais523> `` grep '^a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?$' dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a, $_; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:55:25 <HackEgo> No output.
23:55:35 <ais523> Taneb: what sort of word is "aegilops"
23:55:46 <oerjan> it's all greek to me
23:55:46 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
23:55:51 <ais523> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aegilops
23:56:00 <fizzie> ais523: egrep.
23:56:06 <Taneb> ais523, I have a wordlist with a lot of words in it
23:56:07 <ais523> fizzie: oh ofc
23:56:07 <shachaf> `` wc -l dict-words
23:56:09 <fizzie> Or a lot of slashes.
23:56:10 <HackEgo> 99171 dict-words
23:56:10 <ais523> `` egrep '^a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?$' dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a, $_; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:56:11 <HackEgo> certainty \ imprudent \ loquacity \ abstains \ acerbity \ acquaint \ adequacy \ adjacent \ adorably \ airships \ belabors \ chivalry \ chowders \ citadels \ corsairs \ definers \ deforest \ degrades \ develops \ eloquent \ envelops \ foremost \ hindmost \ horsefly \ hostelry \ impudent \ invaders \ mortuary \ ability \ abrades \ abstain \ academy \
23:56:13 <Taneb> Including chthonian
23:56:37 <ais523> in NetHack you can use capital letters as well as lowercase letters to make it work a bit longer
23:56:49 <fizzie> I remember loquacity from the last time the NetHack inventory compatibility topic came up.
23:56:54 <shachaf> NetHack reverses capital and lowercase letter sorting or something, right?
23:57:05 <ais523> shachaf: capitals sort later than lowercase
23:57:12 <ais523> that's not so much "reverse" as just "different from ASCII"
23:57:25 <Taneb> Without any conditions on the words: 61 Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch's
23:57:30 <Taneb> This is a lot of words
23:57:35 <ais523> huh, apparently it used to be spelt ægilops
23:57:44 <fizzie> I have a feeling the place I work, they'd have long lists of words too.
23:57:48 <fizzie> `` file dict-source # this had a relatively amusing result
23:57:48 <ais523> which is a ligature that the topic doesn't have :-P
23:57:49 <HackEgo> dict-source: ERROR: cannot open `dict-source' (No such file or directory)
23:57:54 <fizzie> Er.
23:57:55 <ais523> `` file dict-words
23:57:57 <HackEgo> dict-words: assembler source, UTF-8 Unicode text
23:58:06 <fizzie> Yes, thinko.
23:58:07 <ais523> who writes asm in UTF-8 :-P
23:58:25 <ais523> I guess it's /shaped/ like asm, but doesn't have nearly enough punctuation and numbers
23:59:04 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
23:59:35 <fizzie> Where I used to work, we had a copy of https://catalog.ldc.upenn.edu/LDC2006T13 which I used a couple of times for random things like this. It's got 13588391 "words".
23:59:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:59:51 <ais523> why does almost every PDF end up leaking internal filename details from the computer it was made via its title?
00:00:11 <ais523> fizzie: in what language? allegedly English?
00:00:31 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, but only very approximately.
00:00:55 <oerjan> `words --help
00:00:58 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
00:01:02 <ais523> now I wonder what words approximate English has
00:01:05 <ais523> typos, perhaps?
00:01:08 <oerjan> `words -l
00:01:11 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
00:01:22 <ais523> `words --eng-all
00:01:30 <shachaf> Is that the same as the approximate words that English has?
00:01:33 <oerjan> that uses the WordData, i take
00:01:38 <ais523> yes
00:01:44 <ais523> which is heavily ngrammed IIRC
00:01:48 <ais523> `` words --eng-all 10
00:01:53 <shachaf> `words --hebrew 10
00:01:54 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:01:56 <shachaf> oops
00:01:59 <shachaf> `` words --hebrew 10
00:02:05 <HackEgo> shal
00:02:07 <fizzie> It works with a single ` (when it works).
00:02:14 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:02:22 <ais523> `echo test
00:02:25 <HackEgo> ​המיי והסגר אונטו להטעמ סטפל ונתי בתוקפס אופמל שהורמציא שקפת
00:02:25 <HackEgo> ​ומא הנבי ותו והלו קיבלת בגרמו התשוב ולתפ מדכתבואנט ארשתי
00:02:26 <fizzie> The script does its own argument splitting if it only gets a single argument that contains spaces, or some-such.
00:02:27 <HackEgo> test
00:02:29 <HackEgo> med hmmerial prae marit patro ress beau dez oxb olsen
00:02:36 <fizzie> Just being laggery, apparently.
00:02:45 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined.
00:02:59 <ais523> now I'm wondering what happens if you put hackego `words output into an online translator
00:03:04 <Taneb> That's an interesting interleaving
00:03:04 <ais523> `words --german 20
00:03:06 <HackEgo> bilisen hocherksto joyaisorgangift beiten abwehrbund alitätenpaß leben perichenfandar gestwärtne verabzügen torischwing schlagenwein pferia hufernzugenerandel metrat mannen fache maeclaviaturbeisener nidiposumker hilfe
00:03:17 <ais523> at least one of those is a real word
00:03:21 <fizzie> "German - detected".
00:03:28 <shachaf> `words --hebrew 20
00:03:30 <HackEgo> ​יאמצני ונתגדו וקל מטפו ונכר ועבד קסיסמא וביז שחששו ותח וישאל בכונת שהקולין ההזיולם טוטיפותר ומספי במלח והמפו כשנמר הזדים
00:03:54 <ais523> most were left alone
00:03:58 <ais523> some were capitalized in various ways
00:04:06 <ais523> e.g. beiten → BEITEN
00:04:23 <fizzie> It also translated abwehrbund to "defense bund", leben to "live", schlagenwein to "beat wine", fache to "times" and hilfe to "Help".
00:04:24 <ais523> "abwehrbund" translates to "defense bund", apparently
00:05:05 <ais523> the translations of leben and hilfe are actually correct, apart from possibly capitalization
00:05:11 <oerjan> leben and hilfe are correct, anyway
00:05:12 <ais523> `words --french 20
00:05:15 <HackEgo> ​étaire kovt lix lacic lirmat locailr hocquité fuvre plicoppe cba ems sylloukhostrie brabort fandres réinsurs litères eduimamiti deredaireronné koiserlartine befulat
00:05:24 <shachaf> Ewige Blumenwein Und Ewige Schlangenwein
00:05:51 <oerjan> shachaf: schlagen, not schlangen hth
00:06:00 <ais523> wow, only one change on the French (litères → Literes)
00:06:00 <oerjan> pretty sure that's different
00:06:13 <shachaf> oerjan: schangenkraft, not schagenkraft hth
00:06:15 <shachaf> oops
00:06:19 <shachaf> i messed that up
00:06:23 <shachaf> schlangenkraft
00:06:42 <ais523> `words --italian 20
00:06:43 <HackEgo> sballere inendo carla predierò curerò procura all'offuma attimbre redeno fruschi spell'augura rapandosi sonacano faccendi abbagliente appandoccusa trasbottammo marrete consavamo riatenere
00:06:47 <shachaf> snake wine is the fancy version of snake oil
00:07:00 <oerjan> shachaf: oh i assumed you were starting from the schlagenwein
00:07:14 <shachaf> i was combining schagenwein and schlangenkraft
00:07:18 <shachaf> look
00:07:25 <shachaf> why'd you have to make me go and type it out like that
00:07:28 <fizzie> The headlines of the biggest Finnish newspaper today mentioned how Google Translate was translating "Російська Федерація" (Russian Federation) in Ukranian → Russian mode to Мордор (Mordor).
00:07:31 <ais523> we have some words there, "curerò procura" becomes "heal attorney"
00:07:34 <fizzie> The perils of machine learning.
00:07:51 <shachaf> snake wine salesmen tend to be snobs
00:07:52 <ais523> fizzie: intentional Googlebomb? or some sort of crazy accident?
00:08:13 <ais523> (also, is the input being given there spelled in Russian or in Ukranian?)
00:08:29 <fizzie> I think it's in Ukranian, but I'm certainly no expert.
00:08:30 <ais523> shachaf: is snake wine fermented snake oil?
00:08:38 <shachaf> Perhaps.
00:08:58 <shachaf> fizzie: did you know the meaning of "sgtm" a year ago
00:09:00 <fizzie> I think our official comment is that it's just an accident, and not really all that crazy either.
00:09:29 <oerjan> the russian is Российская Федерация
00:09:42 <fizzie> shachaf: I think so, but I'm not 100% sure. Certainly it feels now as if I'd always known it.
00:09:54 <oerjan> russian no longer uses і
00:10:16 <shachaf> I used it in another channel and someone deduced my employment history from it.
00:10:32 <shachaf> And I looked in my email history and apparently I never used it before 2013.
00:10:37 <ais523> shachaf: I don't know what it stands for, altough I'm guessing "sounds/seems good to me"
00:10:42 <ais523> from reverse etymology
00:10:43 <shachaf> But now I think it was always common.
00:10:53 <shachaf> So who knows.
00:11:06 <ais523> at Agora, very occasionally, people will write a message entirely as an acronym, and sometimes people figure out what it was meant to be
00:11:08 <shachaf> ais523: Yes.
00:11:17 <shachaf> ais523: That's also true in this channel.
00:11:25 <shachaf> <oerjan> ityarfo
00:11:25 <fizzie> shachaf: Today was my first Googleversary.
00:11:28 <shachaf> <oerjan> sptm
00:11:30 <ais523> well this channel and Agora have quite an overlap
00:11:43 <shachaf> fizzie: did you get balloons?
00:11:47 <ais523> theory: "scow" is actually an acronym but nobody knows what it stands for
00:11:57 <fizzie> Just ones in an email.
00:11:57 <shachaf> I know the etymology of "scow".
00:12:12 <shachaf> You didn't get who balloons?
00:12:25 <shachaf> Or teams balloons or whatever that thing is called.
00:13:06 <shachaf> Maybe you also got ASUs or something.
00:13:37 <fizzie> I don't think I looked at my Teams page.
00:13:51 <fizzie> If that's where something should've been.
00:14:00 <shachaf> @time fizzie
00:14:01 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Wed Jan 6 00:14:00 2016
00:14:06 <shachaf> TOO LATE
00:14:07 <oerjan> <ais523> we have some words there, "curerò procura" becomes "heal attorney" <-- google messes up the grammar, that should be "i will heal". although it might be ungrammatical without an article... izabera?
00:14:35 <ais523> oerjan: so it's "I will heal the attorney" except that "attorney" is a subject rather than an object?
00:14:55 -!- mauris has joined.
00:15:21 <Taneb> I, an attorney, will heal?
00:16:04 <boily> I'll attorney your wounds.
00:17:51 <Taneb> I was trying to learn Italian but sort of took a break due to exams
00:18:03 <Taneb> Why do I have 5 exams in 4 days? :(
00:18:28 <oerjan> ais523: italian doesn't have noun cases, but i think there should be a "la" in there. except now i check, procura seems to refer to power, not actual persons
00:18:59 <ais523> Taneb: because nowadays exams aren't scheduled for student convenience but for administrator convenience
00:19:13 <shachaf> Taneb: you're being pigeonholed as a student hth
00:19:13 <ais523> I actually noticed a notable decline in timetable quality during my time at school
00:19:18 <ais523> as timetables became more automated
00:19:38 <ais523> shachaf: if you're taking exams, doesn't that kind-of make you a student by definition? I guess you could be an applicant
00:19:53 <fizzie> shachaf: I know Chromium folks also use "sgtm" a lot, so you definitely don't need to be a Google employee to be infected.
00:19:54 <ais523> but most of the time, the purpose of exams is to gauge how much someone has learned, which implies that someone has been teaching them
00:19:58 <fizzie> https://www.chromium.org/glossary
00:19:59 <Taneb> shachaf, I am afraid that I must confess to being a student
00:20:23 <oerjan> sgml sgtm
00:20:24 <shachaf> fizzie: Did you know about https://cs.chromium.org/ ?
00:20:38 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Quit: REALITY.SYS Corrupted: Re-boot universe? (Y/N/Q)).
00:20:46 <shachaf> ais523: It could be an exam for a professional certification or something.
00:21:15 <ais523> shachaf: that's why I included "applicant" as the other possibility
00:21:22 <fizzie> shachaf: Yes.
00:21:27 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, I guess so.
00:21:40 <shachaf> fizzie: It's TG. CS is one of the best things.
00:23:01 <fizzie> shachaf: The Chromium one is lacking in layers.
00:23:27 <fizzie> Though the git views are okay.
00:27:51 <shachaf> fizzie: That page has a much better expansion of SGTM than the one I knew.
00:29:05 <fizzie> I didn't know Grok had been kind of open-sourced as "Kythe".
00:29:16 <boily> `? kythe
00:29:17 <HackEgo> kythe? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:29:52 <shachaf> boily: I didn't either.
00:30:45 <Taneb> I don't know what that is
00:30:59 <shachaf> it means "drink" hth
00:31:32 <boily> tdnrh, bigwi.
00:32:31 <shachaf> bigwi?
00:32:52 <boily> But I'll Go With It.
00:38:35 <boily> zzo38: hezzo38. today I had a relapse, and I magicked with my coworkers.
00:38:54 <Taneb> I haven't magicked in a while
00:39:01 <Taneb> I avoid it by not owning any cards
00:39:03 <boily> (magiced? magicqued? maybe even a strong verb, and magunk?)
00:39:06 <Taneb> Or spending any money on it
00:39:23 <shachaf> Taneb: "jammed" hth
00:39:37 <boily> my bro gave me a nice one for Christmas/Birthday. my færies deck is even more annoying :D
00:40:17 <shachaf> Taneb: when are you visiting california to collect a bunch of cards twh
00:40:28 <ais523> I haven't magicked in ages, although I try to stay up to date with it constantly
00:40:39 <Taneb> shachaf, who knows (tm)
00:40:45 <shachaf> I neither play nor stay up to date.
00:40:52 <ais523> this is mostly because Wizards' design goals are sort-of the opposite of those needed to create a good game
00:41:14 <ais523> (basically they try to rewrite the whole thing every six months)
00:41:15 <shachaf> You mean the design goal of making a lot of money forever?
00:41:20 <boily> I wonder if I can get my hands on a copy of Ashes. the atwork looks nice.
00:41:32 <shachaf> boily: Someone tried to play that with me.
00:41:36 <ais523> shachaf: well they state it as, they want to keep the game fresh, so they shake it up repeatedly
00:41:38 <shachaf> But I complained a bunch and they got annoyed.
00:41:56 <ais523> this is basically because it gets stale very quickly because they're iterating so fast that they don't have time to make a deep game
00:42:44 <tswett> Is that how it works, now?
00:43:20 <ais523> tswett: they even got rid of the core set, apparently because they couldn't work out who it was for
00:43:30 <ais523> (answer: it was for people who wanted a well-tested and balanced game)
00:43:37 <boily> huh? like, 2k15 is the last core?
00:43:45 <tswett> boily: Origins is.
00:43:46 <ais523> boily: last core set is called "Magic Origins"
00:44:02 <boily> thwett, this523.
00:44:02 <ais523> they changed their naming scheme for it for some reason
00:44:08 <boily> nonsense.
00:44:30 <ais523> but the core sets haven't really been proper core sets for a while, because they've also been included in the philosophy of shaking things up
00:44:42 <ais523> as opposed to trying to incrementally improve what they had
00:44:58 <boily> I like formats like Tiny Leaders. you have to think hard to build something worthwile and play it well.
00:45:02 <ais523> hmm, I think this is why people like Legacy
00:45:10 <ais523> boily: Tiny Leaders was solved IIRC, or mostly solved
00:45:30 <ais523> being basically Legacy but much more restricted, thus easier to work out the optimal play
00:45:50 <tswett> I'm not familiar with Tiny Leaders.
00:46:13 <boily> tswett: it's Commander, but 50 card deck, and everything must have a CMC <=3.
00:46:53 <boily> you start with 25 hp, no rules about your commander doing a specific amount of damage, and it costs 2 colourless more each time you want to recast your commander.
00:47:13 -!- vanila has joined.
00:49:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46087&oldid=46079 * Albedo * (+34) /* Bitwise operations */ pipe and ! rendering
00:49:41 <tswett> I wonder what the most expensive Modern common cards are.
00:50:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46088&oldid=46087 * Albedo * (+1) /* Global stack (gstack) instructions */
00:51:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46089&oldid=46088 * Albedo * (+17) /* Global stack (gstack) instructions */
00:52:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46090&oldid=46089 * Albedo * (+51) /* Arithmetic operations */
00:52:28 <tswett> Looks like that'd be Serum Visions.
00:53:24 <ais523> the joke is, serum visions isn't even a good card
00:53:27 <ais523> just all the better ones got banned
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01:19:44 <boily> `wisdom
01:19:46 <HackEgo> indonesia/Indonesia is a large island country in Asia and the world's most populous muslim country. Its major export is rayon textile from the Indonesian fnord.
01:20:19 <boily> something went wrong somewhere in that, but I can't pinpoint it.
01:22:30 <Phantom___Hoover> `? fnord
01:22:31 <HackEgo> ​? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:25:01 <zgrep> `ls
01:25:03 <HackEgo> ​:-( \ (* \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ butwhatifichangesomething \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dict-words \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ loudly é \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
01:25:13 <zgrep> `cat
01:25:20 <zgrep> `cat cat
01:25:24 <HackEgo> Meow~~ >^.^<
01:25:29 <zgrep> :D
01:25:44 <HackEgo> No output.
01:27:29 <zgrep> `` cat cat
01:27:30 <HackEgo> Meow~~ >^.^<
01:35:17 <\oren\> ``words --gaelic
01:35:18 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `words: not found
01:35:24 <\oren\> `words --gaelic
01:35:26 <HackEgo> ghuil
01:35:30 <\oren\> `words --gaelic 10
01:35:31 <HackEgo> sgàlla diseaglaide ghòrr teach bhuile miosrat teasadh laid h-inn craoirb
01:35:40 <\oren\> h-inn?
01:37:18 <\oren\> `` words --russian
01:37:21 <HackEgo> ​электади
01:37:24 <\oren\> `` words --russian 10
01:37:27 <HackEgo> ​асновомъ сстверяйте тькиепраштейские сакокладыге подвор полописы бабачившего ходингв прикоа хабастаю
01:39:36 <boily> as egregious Russian consonant clusters are, I highly doubt there are any words that begin with sstv.
01:39:55 <boily> `` words --french 10
01:39:57 <HackEgo> wilit oaso impiusquerenceaux château touesourvi accompli hunt chémont ngit korfage
01:40:20 <\oren\> bhelloily
01:40:24 <boily> château et accompli are legit.
01:40:28 <boily> he\\oren\.
01:40:46 <boily> `` words --french 10
01:40:48 <HackEgo> deki ductionn boursed rhumin aueniaisitabi cableite ble orons fsgt récieriazzo
01:41:03 <\oren\> fsgt?
01:41:23 <\oren\> ble is bleh
01:41:28 <oerjan> `words --norwegian 10
01:41:29 <HackEgo> sparakvaltningen forskningsavgivninjune høgsklæringer udekstrinensjefene førinstingen øybaroleteneseriaste bombyråene floakk formedisjonsbeslut snøbråsilkene
01:42:02 <coppro> hmm I should write that intercal library I wanted to write
01:42:21 <ais523> coppro: make sure you avoid number clashes :-)
01:42:23 <\oren\> floakk!
01:42:45 <ais523> there are still a few groups of 1000 left but I advise you to stick to a group of 100 if you can, it'll save space
01:42:46 <coppro> ais523: no you see
01:42:47 <\oren\> `` words --dutch 10
01:42:48 <HackEgo> Unknown option: dutch
01:42:57 <oerjan> . o O ( bombyråene sounds like something that is just a political mistake away from existing )
01:43:43 <\oren\> floakk sounds to be like a new, inventive swearword
01:43:58 * ais523 waits for the rest of coppro's sentence
01:44:04 <boily> a floakk is an edible pastry.
01:44:05 <oerjan> floakk obviously is a new and upcoming word describing all the overflowing sewers global warming will bring
01:44:14 <coppro> ais523: the goal is to operand overload .4 to return a random number
01:44:28 <ais523> haha
01:44:33 <ais523> you still need some line numbers for that though :-)
01:44:44 <ais523> what's .4 normally used for?
01:44:46 <oerjan> boily: i think you would be hard-pressed to get norwegians to eat something rhyming with kloakk hth
01:44:57 <coppro> ais523: probably as a general-purpose register
01:45:06 <ais523> no, it's one of the argument registers
01:45:12 <ais523> used by stdlib
01:45:18 <ais523> but they tend to be used in fairly consistent ways
01:45:27 <boily> oerjan: I think I can translate that without the help of any machine. bletch!
01:45:28 <coppro> err no wait
01:45:30 <ais523> for full xkcdness I guess you should overload #4
01:45:32 <coppro> not .4, #4
01:45:36 <coppro> yeah
01:45:41 <boily> `? fternooner
01:45:43 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
01:45:51 <ais523> so now what I'm wondering is whether you can put a CREATEd operator into an operand overload
01:46:04 <ais523> strikes me as the only way to get nondeterministic overloads
01:46:26 <ais523> my guess is no, although perhaps there's some way to make it work?
01:46:34 <ais523> I need to redo that code anyway to work violin into it
01:46:49 <ais523> oh, there's no reason it wouldn't work for a forward use
01:46:55 <ais523> but what about a reverse assignment?
01:47:04 <coppro> what about quantumly overloading it?
01:47:32 <ais523> that's a CLC-INTERCAL thing which is more like multithreading than anything else
01:47:39 <ais523> `! c-intercal DO READ OUT #4 DO GIVE UP
01:47:40 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/c-intercal: not found
01:47:44 <ais523> `! cintercal DO READ OUT #4 DO GIVE UP
01:47:51 <HackEgo> ​ \ IV
01:48:31 <ais523> `! cintercal DO .1 <- .1/#4 DO .1 <- #5 DO READ OUT #4 PLEASE GIVE UP
01:48:45 <ais523> oh it doesn't run with -v by default
01:48:50 <ais523> need to try this locally
01:49:23 <oerjan> boily: i thought so too
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01:53:00 <boily> `? tea
01:53:01 <HackEgo> tea? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:53:08 <boily> `? fentimans
01:53:09 <HackEgo> fentimans is a delicious beverage out from Hexham, that can be paired with a fresh fternooner for a nutritive midday snack.
02:02:09 <Phantom___Hoover> `?fternooner
02:02:11 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?fternooner: not found
02:02:16 <Phantom___Hoover> `? fternooner
02:02:19 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
02:03:02 <zgrep> `? nutritive
02:03:05 <HackEgo> nutritive? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:03:30 <zgrep> `? Hexham
02:03:34 <HackEgo> Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
02:03:44 <zgrep> `? beverage
02:03:47 <HackEgo> beverage? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:03:56 <zgrep> `? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:03:58 <HackEgo> ​¯\(°​_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:04:02 <zgrep> :D
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02:30:21 <oerjan> zgrep: they're not actually identical, although your client may accidentally convert between them when pasting
02:33:51 <oerjan> alas, with myndzi gone the reasons may no longer be obvious.
02:34:44 <FireFly> is it a combining overline vs. non-combining difference?
02:34:52 <FireFly> or some such
02:35:10 <FireFly> or some nonprintable within it maybe
02:35:24 <oerjan> the nonprintable
02:35:52 <FireFly> `` \? hutenosa | unidecode
02:35:54 <HackEgo> No output.
02:36:33 <FireFly> probably would've been too long output either way
02:36:49 <oerjan> `? hutenosa
02:36:50 <HackEgo> hutenosa? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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02:37:25 <oerjan> oh. unidecode doesn't pipe.
02:37:42 <vanila> \o/
02:37:43 <FireFly> oh
02:37:44 <vanila> give my myzinda
02:37:46 <vanila> please
02:37:50 <vanila> \o/
02:37:52 <vanila> \o/
02:37:55 <oerjan> vanila: SORRY
02:37:56 <vanila> whyyy
02:38:01 <vanila> crying face
02:38:03 <FireFly> `` \? z | xargs unidecode
02:38:13 <vanila> \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/
02:38:15 <vanila> myzindi
02:38:17 <FireFly> mm, ZWSP
02:38:28 <FireFly> alas there is no myndzi
02:38:30 <oerjan> i don't think you need xargs.
02:38:33 <vanila> why not
02:38:36 <vanila> what happens ;
02:38:47 <FireFly> vanila: we get signal
02:39:26 <vanila> someobedy set up us the bong
02:39:28 <vanila> lol
02:39:30 <FireFly> oerjan: hm, I have a habit of doing foo | xargs bar instead of bar "$(foo)" for some reason
02:39:47 <oerjan> ah
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02:42:08 <vanila> btw you all probably heard about this but someone did brainfu8ck in printf!
02:42:14 <vanila> i was pretty impressed
02:42:18 <vanila> the %n thing is ridiculous
02:42:38 <vanila> i knew it could be used to start off code exec
02:42:50 <vanila> but this guy did all the computation in a format string
02:44:02 <ais523> vanila: I heard people reference it but didn't see the original
02:44:04 <ais523> link?
02:44:51 <vanila> sure
02:45:16 <ais523> ?
02:45:19 <vanila> https://github.com/HexHive/printbf
02:45:23 <ais523> thanks
02:45:24 <vanila> i have to find it that takes finite time
02:45:40 <ais523> right, just "sure" is a weird way to express that so I was a little confused
02:45:55 <ais523> I thought it might be that you were looking for the link but wasn't sure
02:46:00 <vanila> but yeah i love these "found" computers
02:46:20 <vanila> ROP is my favorite because it's like moss growing in the cracks of a wall
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02:47:58 <ais523> vanila: I was messing about with them even before I'd heard of esolangs
02:48:06 <ais523> called it "alternate programming"
02:48:10 <vanila> thats so cool :D
02:48:18 <ais523> but most of the things I looked at were very sub-TC
02:48:22 <vanila> i don't know if i was befoer i heard about esolangs
02:48:25 <ais523> like MS Paint
02:48:29 <vanila> subTC is really interesting
02:48:54 <ais523> (although now I'm wondering, what if you run it in monochrome mode so that the fill tool does patterns? still subTC but might be more powerful)
02:49:05 <vanila> haha
02:49:06 <vanila> nice
02:49:17 <vanila> probably some modular arithmetic stuff becomes possible with paterns
02:50:30 <zgrep> oerjan: I believe it might.
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02:52:04 <zgrep> Hah, they're not identical! :D
02:52:25 <zgrep> `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:52:26 <HackEgo> ​¯\(°_o)/¯ `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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02:53:06 <vanila> ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:54:17 <zgrep> `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:54:18 <HackEgo> ​¯\(°_o)/¯ `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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02:54:49 <zgrep> oerjan: No, my client does not do that. HackEgo was using ¯\(°​_o)/¯ and I copied that.
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03:00:31 <oerjan> zgrep: oh hm right. i was misremembering which way the wisdom goes.
03:03:44 <mauris__> today i had the sudden realization that "myndzi" is probably pronounced as/derived from "mind's eye"
03:04:22 <mauris__> (i'd been mentally pronouncing it as min-dzee AND I WON'T STOP)
03:05:59 <shachaf> ==mauris__
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03:12:58 <ais523> hmm, that construction relies on printf reading the format string lazily
03:13:08 <ais523> admittedly, most printfs will, there's no reason to scan it in advance
03:13:21 <ais523> other than to prevent specifically that exploit
03:15:09 <ais523> I also suspect it's sub-TC due to stack underflow
03:15:40 <ais523> eventually printf will be reading arguments from stack locations that are before the start of the stack, and even if you have arbitrary control over memory, you still can't write to an unmapped address
03:21:11 <ais523> "nginx rewrote their own version of printf() and removed “ %n ”"
03:21:22 <ais523> haha, that's one way to avoid format string vulnerabilities :-)
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03:29:47 <zzo38> The SQL function "PRINTF" in SQLite also disables "%n"
03:32:06 <zzo38> (The internal code still implements it, it just disables it when the list of arguments is a list of dynamically-typed SQL values)
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05:28:15 <hppavilion[2]> I think I'll create an Esolangs community on Google+
05:28:19 <hppavilion[2]> In fact, I already did xD
05:28:37 <hppavilion[2]> I just published a short article/advertisement of the community on the Programming G+ community
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05:58:56 <zzo38> Do you have other ideas to make custom Magic: the Gathering cards or puzzle or variant rule or whatever else?
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06:22:16 <hppavilion[2]> Yay! Someon reshared my post on Brainfuck!
06:23:13 <ais523> zzo38: one I have made: cost {G}, instant, effect "Look at the top three cards of your library. You may put a land card from among them onto the battlefield. Place the rest on top of your library in any order."
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06:28:50 <zzo38> ais523: OK thanks, what did you call it and do you think it is reasonable?
06:29:13 <ais523> I haven't called it anything yet, and I think it's reasonable: the aim was to create a green cantrip-like spell to compete with the blue ones in Legacy
06:29:20 <zzo38> OK
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06:30:57 <zzo38> Did you make the database or card list file or whatever? Or even posted this idea anywhere else than right here right now?
06:31:55 <zzo38> Also, how can I do in Linux, I want to use the mail system but treat local mail differently from mail received remotely, and also to use a different SMTP server for sending than for receiving messages. For example I do not want the email address to contain local usernames, but if a local user types something like "mail user1" then it is a local username.
06:32:20 <haavard> Make something stronger than Serum Visions but weaker than Ponder and have Wizards pick it up
06:32:24 <haavard> Need something modern legal ;)
06:32:25 <ais523> zzo38: I haven't posted most of my ideas online, that was the first time I posted one I think
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06:32:40 <ais523> haavard: preordain is such a card, but it's also banned in modern
06:32:49 <ais523> there's opt but it's even weaker than serum visions I think
06:35:07 <zzo38> One idea I had is "You may force target player to draw three cards" (a variant of Jace's Ingenuity, except that you can force other players to draw cards too, like Ancestral Recall but costs more and is abortable)
06:35:51 <ais523> zzo38: that's worded "you may have target player draw three cards" I think
06:36:10 <ais523> but the situations in which you'd abort such a spell are very rare
06:36:20 <ais523> so I doubt Wizards would print it because it'd mean extra clicks in Magic Online
06:40:40 <zzo38> I don't expect Wizards of the Coast to really print any of my stuff; it is mainly for use in custom games
06:50:56 <zzo38> Ancestral Recall was originally designed to allow you to force opponent to draw cards as well as you (although it can now be used on teammates too; when it was designed there was no team game). Many cards only work on you and I don't like it much
06:53:34 <zzo38> I do now have the service to post the comments of my custom cards on the webpage, by use of web browser or curl. However, these custom cards are also available as plain text and SQLite database (the SQLite database includes the user comments too).
06:53:36 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, that's a nice card. if it was a sorcery rather than an instant, then it looks plausibly printable.
06:54:25 <ais523> zzo38: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/pointcounterpoint-targeted-card-draw-2012-03-23 http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/pointcounterpoint-targeted-card-draw-2012-03-28
06:54:26 <zzo38> Why don't you write comment on my card yet? We should put it there in the place so that also other people even if on different IRC or not at all can also to read/write comment same including to reply
06:54:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: there are some blue cards that can have anyone draw cards, but they aren't optional (as in "may") usually, and they're rare because it's not worth the extra text over just "Draw three cards."
06:54:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you want an instant or a sorcery?
06:54:43 <b_jonas> for card draw, instant sometimes has extra cost
06:54:53 <ais523> zzo38: those are articles by R&D arguing the case for and against card draw spells having targets, respectively
06:55:04 <zzo38> The card I described is an instant, and has the same cost as Jace's Ingenuity, it is what I designed it as.
06:56:14 <zzo38> Look it the file to see
06:57:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's Inspiration; Deep Analysis; Opportunity each of them lets you choose any player
07:03:16 <zzo38> Please look my card (there are some new ones) and write comment too
07:08:35 <hppavilion[1]> How about a language that is ENTIRELY monads
07:08:56 <hppavilion[1]> Not like haskell, which is AFAICT functions with a side of monads (used for side effects)
07:09:03 <hppavilion[1]> Just pure, monady goodness
07:09:09 <hppavilion[1]> Note: I don't actually understand monads
07:10:37 <oerjan> functions are a monad too hth
07:10:48 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh right
07:10:59 <hppavilion[1]> Shit
07:11:07 <hppavilion[1]> xD
07:11:36 <oerjan> also, a lot of the other monads are wrappers over functions
07:11:47 <oerjan> @unmtl State s a
07:11:47 <lambdabot> s -> (a, s)
07:13:35 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Exactly. The idea was to restrict monads.
07:14:13 <ais523> @help unmtl
07:14:13 <lambdabot> unroll mtl monads
07:14:50 <ais523> oerjan: it's not so much a wrapper, as identifying functions that happen to have a monadic form, isn't it?
07:15:37 <oerjan> ais523: it's a wrapper for type inference to find the right arguments
07:15:42 <oerjan> @src State
07:15:43 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you typing with your feet?
07:15:46 <oerjan> @src StateT
07:15:47 <lambdabot> Source not found. Do you think like you type?
07:15:55 <oerjan> and @src is reliable as always
07:16:39 <oerjan> also, it's ambiguous:
07:17:03 <oerjan> @unmtl ReaderT s (Writer s) a
07:17:04 <lambdabot> s -> (a, s)
07:17:14 <oerjan> same function, different monad.
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07:58:49 <zzo38> ais523: I looked at part of the first one so far
07:59:14 <ais523> zzo38: the first one agrees with you (although possibly has different reasoning), the secondd one disagrees
07:59:30 <zzo38> However as I have shown there are even more possibilities
07:59:51 <zzo38> And I think both kind of card are OK to have in the game.
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08:04:30 <zzo38> I do believe it should be targeted by default though, although nevertheless with many different kind of card available can make the game more diverse.
08:04:58 <myname> lol, there are joke mosquitos
08:06:16 <zzo38> Puzzles are also one point in such diversity, but not the only reason
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08:20:34 <zzo38> I looked at the two versions of "Raging Centaur" in the second article. They say many people prefer the first, although to me I prefer the second, not only because 1 more toughness but there may be possibility of advantage of the ability (which they even admit). However, the second version does have a clear disadvantage in Commander.
08:23:03 <ais523> zzo38: because it's harder to fit into decks?
08:23:19 <ais523> if you're playing BG anyway it's better I think
08:25:40 <hppavilion[1]> So back to my idea about 3-sign numbers for no apparent reason
08:26:01 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: have you seen quaternions?
08:26:05 <hppavilion[1]> ~x, $x, &x. Or something like that.
08:26:07 <ais523> they have 8 signs though
08:26:13 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Yes, hasn't everyone?
08:26:15 <zzo38> Yes, if you are playing both black and green it is better even in Commander.
08:26:33 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I'm pretty sure at least one person hasn't
08:26:36 <zzo38> If you are not playing black then you cannot use it in Commander.
08:26:39 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I'm going for a simple extension of the naturals
08:27:17 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Well yes, we're excluding Roger when we discuss this sort of thing.
08:27:20 <lifthrasiir> do three signs include +?
08:27:24 <hppavilion[1]> *shudder*
08:27:43 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: It's just notation, so you could say it does, or doesn't, or that it doesn't matter in the slightest.
08:30:02 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: what rules do your system obey? for example, is ~0 = $0 = &0 or not?
08:30:35 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Yes, 0 is signless (or all signs, or its own sign)
08:30:47 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: The craziest thing is that this actually has a use somewhere
08:31:08 <lifthrasiir> what is ~1 + $2?
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08:31:24 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Still working on that xD
08:31:25 <lifthrasiir> the number system is meaningless without governing rules
08:31:32 <lifthrasiir> heh.
08:32:04 <hppavilion[1]> Specifically, hyperoperations. m[~4]b = m log b, whereas m[&4]b = the mth root of b
08:32:12 <hppavilion[1]> (Why I chose m and b, I have no idea)
08:32:40 <hppavilion[1]> And m[$4]b = m[4]b = m**b
08:33:11 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: I think I'll start with unary operations
08:34:02 <hppavilion[1]> &$1 = ~1, $&1 = ~1, ~$1 = &1, $~1 = &1, ~&1 = $1, &~1 = $1
08:34:19 <hppavilion[1]> And $$1 = &1, &&1 = ~1, and ~~1 = $1
08:35:25 <hppavilion[1]> Hopefully, that's consistent if we substitute x for 1
08:35:33 <myname> so, basically N x Z_3
08:35:46 <hppavilion[1]> myname: ?
08:36:09 <myname> m
08:36:11 <hppavilion[1]> Did I accidentally just invent modular arithmetic with funny notation? xD
08:37:05 <lifthrasiir> myname: since 0 is signless, not exactly equivalent
08:37:25 <myname> well, isomorphic
08:37:35 <hppavilion[1]> ~&$1 = ~~1 = $1
08:37:43 <ais523> myname: how does addition work in N × Z₃?
08:37:54 <hppavilion[1]> ~&$1 = ~$&1, of course
08:38:00 <myname> hppavilion[1]: afair there is only one group with 3 elements
08:38:15 <myname> ais523: depends. couöd be element wise
08:38:41 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Um? Umlaut?
08:38:42 <ais523> right, but that wouldn't act very like normal addition
08:38:53 <myname> could
08:38:58 <ais523> in particular, subtraction wouldn't really work at all
08:39:02 <myname> ö is right next to l
08:39:06 <lifthrasiir> myname: also, if it *were* Z_3, then some sign should behave differently from others (and that would be the identity) but it doesn't seem so
08:39:09 <hppavilion[1]> What does x mean in N x Z₃?
08:39:38 <myname> lifthrasiir: oh, right
08:39:45 <myname> hppavilion[1]: cross product
08:39:46 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: But I probably wouldn't do traditional subtraction; I'd do subtraction adjusted for my weird 3-sign system
08:39:49 <hppavilion[1]> Ah?
08:40:02 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I was basically asing what addition meant
08:40:07 <ais523> myname: not cartesian product?
08:40:20 <myname> ah, yeah
08:40:33 <lifthrasiir> myname: I'm tempting to think it as an extension of GF(4), but not sure, I don't know enough group theory after all
08:41:04 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe (should) $$x = x, ~~x = x, &&x = x
08:41:35 <hppavilion[1]> (The above was a failed attempt to use Haskell-like syntax in speech)
08:43:04 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I never said it was a group or a ring or anything; just that it's numeric and has 3 signs
08:43:32 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well yes, you still want to define addition and subtractoin in a mostly addition/subtraction-like way, though, don't you?
08:43:33 <hppavilion[1]> It'd probably have its own entirely alien set of operations
08:44:03 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Addition if I can, but subtraction doesn't make sense because x-y = x+(-y)
08:44:26 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: x+y-y=x
08:44:41 <myname> well, you just don't have - then
08:44:41 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Yes, that too
08:44:50 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Exactly
08:44:53 <myname> x ~ y, x $ y
08:45:00 <myname> x & y
08:45:01 <hppavilion[1]> So it should be more the $, &, and ~ subtraction-like operations
08:45:08 <hppavilion[1]> Dammit, you beat me xD
08:46:31 <hppavilion[1]> This will all make hyperoperations much more difficult, not having - xD
08:46:44 <myname> how so?
08:46:44 <hppavilion[1]> And just /imagine/ the order theory 0.o
08:46:59 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Look up the definition of the hyperoperations and note the -
08:47:18 <hppavilion[1]> These 3-sign numbers, btw, are JUST for the hyperoperations index; not for the operands
08:47:22 <hppavilion[1]> (for now)
08:51:26 <myname> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=2253 it's funny 'cause it's true
09:04:03 <zzo38> It looks like the card "Cleansing" even allow you to pay life to protect opponent's lands too.
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09:33:03 <b_jonas> How exactly does Cut the Tethers work? Does first the active player choose which spirits they own to pay for, possibly activates mana abilities and makes all the payments, then the other players make choices after those payments are done, and finally spirits are returned to their owner's hands?
09:33:45 <b_jonas> And what happens if some permanents become Spirits, or new Spirits are put into play (eg. by Forbidden Orchard), or some Spirits change ownership while paying?
09:35:05 <zzo38> Let me to see the rules to see if it mention its working
09:35:43 <zzo38> As far as I know it doesn't seem to mention "for each" effects but I may be misremembering
09:36:25 <b_jonas> Even if not "for each" specifically, there are lots of general rules that may be covering this.
09:37:54 <zzo38> The rules ought to define what "for each" means in order to make it clear.
09:38:13 <b_jonas> There's rule 101.4 and stuff like that
09:42:20 <zzo38> Rule 101.4 describes APNAP order, although it also gives an example, which may be of use.
09:45:06 <zzo38> Does rule 608.2g apply?
09:47:32 <zzo38> It still fails to explain exactly what "for each" means though
09:48:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm asking on efnet/#mtgrules currently
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09:52:46 <zzo38> Maybe it is like this: the active player chooses which Spirits to avoid returning, and then the nonactive player does, and then each player who chose to avoid returning can activate mana abilities, and then the mana is paid, and then all are returned simultaneously. I am not sure though; it may be wrong.
09:55:10 <zzo38> (What I mean is that before that, it is determined which permanents are Spirits and all of those ones are selected)
09:56:18 <zzo38> But it just seems unclear to me.
09:56:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: that would be very hard to imagine, because my payments can influence not only the set of spirits, but also how the opponent can activate mana abilities and/or how much mana he can get from them
09:57:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: so I don't see how you could make all the choices before paying
09:58:43 <b_jonas> efnet/SFT says, without referring to rules, that first the set of spirits is locked in, then the active player makes all choices and does all payment, then the other players do all payment, then the other spirits remembered are returned
09:59:17 <b_jonas> Cleansing is, incidentally, more horrible.
09:59:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46091&oldid=45679 * Rdebath * (+1172) /* Shortest known "hello world" program. */ new section
10:00:39 <zzo38> I did realize that the set of Spirits must be locked in first, as the rules seem to mean that.
10:00:43 <b_jonas> ais523: care to weigh in? The question is how resolving Cut the Tethers works, since when paying mana abilities, the set of Spirits may change.
10:00:53 <ais523> let me look at that card
10:01:38 <b_jonas> "<b_jonas> How exactly does Cut the Tethers work? Does first the active player choose which spirits they own to pay for, possibly activates mana abilities and makes all the payments, then the other players make choices after those payments are done, and finally spirits are returned to their owner's hands?"
10:02:18 <ais523> I'd say you iterate over the spirits in turn in the usual order (I forget what that is) and for each spirit, when you come to it in the iteration, you can pay {3}, if you don't and it's still on the battlefield it bounces
10:02:34 <ais523> not sure though, don't have the rules memorized
10:02:39 <ais523> clearly we should be asking coppro about this
10:03:24 <ais523> (what's the most ridiculous possible situation? I'm trying to figure out a way for a card to become a Spirit as the result of paying a mana ability)
10:03:43 <ais523> (which probably involves sacrificing an animated enchantment that's disabling the creature type somehow)
10:04:32 <b_jonas> Since rule 610.3 and Banishing Light, you can even have new spirits enter the battlefield when activating a mana ability.
10:05:19 <zzo38> ais523: I think the set of Spirits must be initially locked in, and that choices are made in APNAP order; but again I don't know. However, even so, the rest seem unclear to me
10:05:25 <b_jonas> ais523: sacrifice a liquimetal-coated Lignify to a Krark-Clan Ironworks to turn a card back to a spirit
10:05:27 <ais523> ooh, you use opalescence to animate a banishing light, then sacrifice it to phyrexian altar?
10:05:39 <ais523> heh, we had much the same idea there
10:06:08 <b_jonas> ais523: sacrifice a liquimetal-coated Banishing Light to return a Spirit to the battlefield
10:06:56 <b_jonas> oh, there's a Phyrexian Altar? that might be even better! I was using Ashnod's Altar in my examples
10:07:14 <b_jonas> although Ashnod's Altar is cheaper apparently
10:07:19 <b_jonas> because it's uncommon
10:07:31 <zzo38> There may even be situations in the game where you would want to ensure to do something during a mana step in order to avoid state-based actions that would otherwise occur in between the mana abilities being activated.
10:07:40 <ais523> tbf ashnod's altar is probably better too
10:07:52 <ais523> {2} is better than one mana of any colour IMO
10:07:55 <b_jonas> sure, Ashnod's Altar is more powerful in a real game
10:09:22 <b_jonas> ais523: there are also cycles of land that have mana abilities that sacrifice that land, which can (in theory, not likely in real games) affect how much mana an opponent can pay with Exotic Orchard or Felwar Stone
10:09:47 <b_jonas> s/Felwar/Fellwar/
10:10:10 <b_jonas> ok, let's ask coppro
10:10:12 <b_jonas> coppro: ^
10:10:16 <ais523> or reflecting pool
10:10:30 <ais523> actually there are quite a lot of effects like that
10:10:40 <b_jonas> Reflecting Pool is on your own mana
10:10:58 <ais523> still, same problem for this example
10:11:00 <b_jonas> but of course Ahnod's Altar or Krark-Clan Ironworks can directly sacrifice lands or mana-producing artifacts
10:11:14 <ais523> although cut the tethers doesn't care about colour, we can make it care by sacrificing the last colour-producing land
10:11:23 <ais523> (which might be, say, a dryad arbor)
10:11:42 <b_jonas> ais523: color matters because if I no longer own a land that produces any _colored_ mana, then the opponent's Exotic Orchard can't produce mana at all
10:11:48 <ais523> yes, that's what I said
10:12:19 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befana YOU PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THIS?!?
10:12:21 <izabera> WTF?!
10:13:14 <b_jonas> let me look this up, there were rules clearly stating that at least for paying the mana costs of a spell or ability, you choose how to pay for everything first, then make the payments all together, but the payments have to be possible, or something
10:13:21 <zzo38> With Cleansing I suppose it might work by first locking the set of all lands, and then the active player chooses which to protect (they don't have to be his own) and pays, and then the nonactive player chooses which to protect (he may choose ones that are already protected) and pays, and then all unprotected lands are destroyed simultaneously. Is that it? I don't know
10:13:41 <ais523> now I'm trying to figure out a set of langs which can't collectively all be tapped for mana, but which can individually all be tapped for mana
10:15:40 <b_jonas> ais523: there are lots of lands that can produce _more_ mana if you sacrifice them, but you can still get fewer mana from them
10:16:14 <ais523> ah right, I didn't mean like that
10:17:16 <zzo38> These kind of thing are reasons why I would intend to design the new card game by writing the rules as a literate computer program with mathematical definitions included, and then the cards also have computer codes associated with them. This way can make the rules much more clear!
10:17:42 <ais523> I have had thoughts about trading card game design
10:18:12 <ais523> that are designed to eliminate memorized information (i.e. all information about the gamestate is conveyed by the position of the cards), and yet be reasonably flexible in how the rules work
10:18:58 <zzo38> (I would also probably intend to design a new literate programming system for this purpose, one thing being to arrange sections in the way which is more suitable for this kind of document. Also probably it will compile into a new VM called CardVM made for this purpose, so it is even a new VM too)
10:21:55 <b_jonas> there's strange lands like Lake of the Dead
10:24:50 <zzo38> ais523: That does look like reasonable I suppose, although it doesn't seem to address the kind of issues that I address?
10:25:11 <ais523> zzo38: well there's nothing inherently open-source or closed-source about rules
10:25:54 <ais523> it'd also have a streamlined computer interface compared to Magic because most of the decisions you could make would be small numbers of choices from large sets, rather than large numbers of choices from small sets
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10:31:57 <zzo38> Maybe you miss the point. While these things I am suggesting would be open-source, it is n