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00:38:54 <MisterN> PLEASE COME FROM ##brainfuck :D
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12:07:44 <tusho> AnMaster: he's not here.
12:08:17 <oklopod> tusho: make optbot put whether ais523 is here on the topic.
12:08:18 <optbot> oklopod: but that should be the code for a bot that tries to keep in the middle of a platform
12:08:26 <tusho> it's called /w ais523
12:08:56 <tusho> 352: #esoteric n=ais523 eso-std.org irc.freenode.net ais523 G 0 (this is obviously not my real name)
12:09:18 <oklopod> that was from an explanation about ob
12:09:23 <optbot> oklopod: when I was young and naive I thought i'd be able to get syntax-error.com
12:09:38 <oklopod> this one i have no idea about
12:09:49 <optbot> oklopod: having said that, there are occasions when people deserve to be stabbed in the face
12:10:07 <optbot> oklopod: Because if he spends money registering the domain, it's money that won't go to the poor!
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12:10:53 <tusho> i can always grep for you guys btw.
12:11:14 <oklopod> although not from the earliest / newest ones
12:11:29 <oklopod> you can *check* by grepping if you *feel* like it
12:11:39 <tusho> oklopod: by the way, how do you like bayesian spam filters.
12:11:55 <oklopod> i haven't used them, just simpler statistical methods
12:12:05 <oklopod> i don't know anything about bayesian networks
12:12:08 <tusho> oklopod: but are they neat
12:12:17 <tusho> in a 'probably neat but i don't know anything about them' way
12:12:30 <oklopod> if you're asking about my opinion about their usage, or how much use they are, then i don't have an opinion really
12:12:44 <tusho> oklopod: more about how awesome they are actually
12:13:02 <oklopod> all networks are, by default, awesome, as they are graphs
12:13:31 <oklopod> a book about bayesian networks is on my read-list, or actually two
12:13:31 <tusho> because me and comex have written and are writing a program that uses bayesian spam filtering in python
12:13:41 <oklopod> but course books have a higher priority
12:13:44 <tusho> It votes on Agoran proposals.
12:13:50 <oklopod> and i still have a few books to go
12:13:55 <tusho> First, it was fed a backlog of the proposal results 2006-present.
12:14:01 <tusho> If a proposal passed, it was fed as not spam.
12:14:06 <tusho> if it failed, it was fed as spam.
12:14:17 <tusho> Then, it votes AGAINST new proposals that act like spam.
12:14:22 <tusho> and FOR other ones
12:14:48 <oklopod> are you writing the actual bayesian network part?
12:14:54 <oklopod> or just using some lib or smth
12:15:01 <tusho> oklopod: just using a lib i'm afraid, but its probably for the best
12:15:07 <tusho> i mean, its designed for spam filtering
12:15:13 <tusho> it's gonna be better at it than a one-day hack...
12:15:27 <oklopod> for the best maybe, but it's against my nonsensical principles. :P
12:15:28 <tusho> funnily enough, on a recent batch we tested it on, it voted exactly the same as me on 3 proposals
12:15:33 <tusho> out of 4 proposals in the pool
12:15:53 <tusho> (the one it voted AGAINST that I voted FOR was probably because it was quite a big thing and probably had a lot of loopholes but I kinda liked the idea so i voted for it)
12:15:57 <oklopod> well 3/4 isn't really that impressive
12:16:04 <tusho> but how about these statistics:
12:16:28 <oklopod> try adding half of the proposals, and testing the rest
12:17:16 <tusho> oklopod: I made it vote on every proposal that we trained it on and then measured how many times it voted 'right'
12:17:21 <tusho> (FOR when it passed AGAINST when it failed
12:17:35 <tusho> comex's initial version was closer to the status quo, BUT
12:17:40 <tusho> his tracked author names
12:17:47 <tusho> rarely ever get proposals passed
12:17:48 <oklopod> you tested it on ones that it was fed?
12:17:53 <tusho> his tried to vote on whether it would passed
12:17:57 <tusho> mine votes on whether it's a good proposal
12:18:09 <tusho> bayesian spam filtering doesn't actually retain the original test
12:18:13 <oklopod> well, don't, then give me the results
12:18:13 <tusho> so its not as trivial as it seems..
12:18:25 <tusho> oklopod: those are the only proposals i can get a hold off
12:18:35 <tusho> dunno where I can get pre-2006 archives
12:19:08 <fizzie> tusho: You can easily do leave-one-out cross-validation. Train it on all but one, then test on that one. Repeat for every proposal. That's a lot of computing systems, so your machines won't feel all unnecessary.
12:19:18 <tusho> oklopod: less impressive -
12:19:31 <tusho> the game changed a lot around half way through
12:19:36 <tusho> it wasn't used to the new kinds of proposals
12:19:41 <tusho> after the series of revamps
12:19:48 <tusho> not bad performance, I'd say
12:20:01 <tusho> oklopod: no, that'd take years
12:20:11 <oklopod> try first, then insert it, then test next, then insert it
12:20:26 <tusho> but they're two different scripts
12:20:28 <oklopod> this will kinda do what fizzie said, but i guess a bit faster.
12:20:43 <oklopod> also it will be more sensical, as bayesian networks adapt
12:20:44 <fizzie> Leave-one-out will take at most 1066 times longer than your original test, and it doesn't sound like it takes a long time right now.
12:21:04 <oklopod> so chronological + testing the one after input in chronological order should work the best
12:21:50 <tusho> fizzie: the feeding takes about a second
12:21:54 <tusho> and the test takes about a second
12:22:25 <fizzie> (And the test will be a lot faster since it has only one proposal to test.)
12:22:32 <tusho> ofc, remember, it isn't AIMING to get it right
12:22:39 <tusho> since proposals fail for non-bad-proposal reasons
12:22:43 <tusho> e.g. grudges, bribery, whatever
12:22:53 <fizzie> For the "test it before inserting" you might want to start testing only after you've fed something like half of the proposals.
12:23:01 <fizzie> It's not likely the untrained system will do very well.
12:23:44 <oklopod> well i was actually gonna say emphasize gradually more as input size grows, and give the percentage, which is the same thing, but more complicated and more useless
12:24:21 <tusho> i think i did that wrong
12:24:45 <tusho> oklopod: oh well, the point is
12:24:48 <tusho> i also tested it on a batch of like
12:24:50 <tusho> 10 recent proposals
12:24:55 <tusho> and it voted very, very reasonably
12:25:06 <tusho> didn't really take any risks, and voted against obviously bad stuff
12:25:13 <tusho> but voted for fixes and such
12:25:19 <oklopod> had it been fed those as inputs..?
12:25:19 <tusho> in its actual real world environment
12:25:31 <oklopod> well that's simply not right
12:25:38 <tusho> not including them
12:25:51 <tusho> even if it doesn't do too well statistically
12:26:03 <tusho> it had not been fed the proposals that it voted on
12:26:08 <tusho> it had been fed the archives, however
12:26:14 <tusho> and that is the conditions in which it will be run in the wild
12:26:19 <tusho> as it's the best it can do
12:26:22 <tusho> in that environment
12:26:28 <tusho> it functioned well as a reasonable mechanical voting machine.
12:26:32 <fizzie> Re classification, given the ~300 authors with >10 English books in the Gutenberg project, our very silly SOM-based classifier (using _very silly_ feature representation for books) can already correctly guess the author for >40% of incoming books. Conclusion: writers just keep repeating themselves all the time.
12:26:52 <tusho> i bet i could make this detect author
12:28:12 <tusho> i just actually timed it and etc
12:28:14 <fizzie> Also: the same system is pretty good (average in-class accuracy 70-80 %, even though the training data is horribly biased) at guessing the gender of the author.
12:28:15 <tusho> it'd take 0.96 hours
12:29:10 <fizzie> It would take 25 days of computing-time to do actual leave-one-out cross-validation for our Gutenberg data-set. :p
12:29:30 <fizzie> (Which is one of the reasons why we're not using it either.)
12:29:34 <tusho> fizzie: what on earth is it doing?! :-)
12:30:01 <oklopod> fizzie: now the question is, how silly is it?
12:30:05 <fizzie> Coursework, for the... what's the course again? I forget. It's 1.5 years past the returning deadline anyway. :p
12:30:39 <fizzie> (Because the deadline was a "soft" one; the lecturer said that "you can return it any time you like, but you won't get your course grade before you do".)
12:30:47 <tusho> fizzie: would it be able to vote on agoran proposals?
12:31:39 <fizzie> Probably not well, but theoretically speaking, yes. But the feature representation is all just simple statistics (sentence lengths, use of pronouns, etc.) and does not look at the content words at all.
12:32:19 <fizzie> So if you want nonsensical decisions, sure.
12:33:01 <fizzie> Of course with the SOM-based approach you get nifty visualizations, and sort-of proposal clustering, "for free".
12:35:03 <fizzie> I think we selected our classifier because with all the pictures of the SOM maps in the report, there's no need to write much actual text for it. :p
12:35:43 <oklopod> yeah you can't write that much in 1,5 years
12:36:01 <fizzie> Work on the project has been... sporadic.
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12:37:13 <oklopod> sporadic... like, spore-adic, cuz it took 1,5 years
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12:37:35 <tusho> fizzie: perhaps you know - you know how ssh makes you enter your pwd at a terminal?
12:37:39 <fizzie> SVN revision 1 has a timestamp of 2007-02-06 02:01:56 +0200.
12:37:45 <tusho> well, bayes has one password on eso-std.org and its long and i dont wanna type it to login
12:37:50 <tusho> i'm trying to make a shell script
12:37:54 <tusho> but gives it the password
12:37:58 <tusho> via the command line
12:38:01 <tusho> i.e. from the script
12:38:08 <tusho> (that only people who can log in as bayes anyway can see)
12:38:47 <fizzie> I think the more recommended approach would be to generate a RSA (or DSA) key with no passphrase -- in a file that only those people can read -- and add that in authorized_keys of the remote side.
12:38:54 <tusho> [bayes = the bot btw]
12:39:02 <tusho> fizzie: yeah but...fffffffff
12:39:41 <fizzie> Well, you can use the SSH_ASKPASS environment variable.
12:39:47 <tusho> http://www.google.com/search2001.html google's index in 2001
12:41:16 <fizzie> I'm not sure how to force it to use SSH_ASKPASS except by doing "ssh ... </dev/null" so that it doesn't have a terminal in stdin to query the passphrase from.
12:41:55 <tusho> fizzie: anyway, if i do the ssh key thing how would I tell ssh what key to use...?
12:42:04 <fizzie> ssh -i path/to/keyfile
12:43:16 <tusho> fizzie: But I'm using git, I can't give ssh arguments
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12:44:10 <fizzie> I'm sure there's some way to specify arguments, since even rsync lets you specify the shell used.
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12:45:49 <fizzie> Well, if you don't mind always using that key, you can stick into your ~/.ssh/config something like "Host remote_side\n IdentityFile /path/to/key"
12:46:26 <tusho> [[don't mind always using that key]]
12:46:38 <tusho> Can I set it to only use that key for that user?
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12:47:24 <fizzie> Not in ~/.ssh/config, that can only specify per-host preferences. :/
12:48:29 <fizzie> http://git.or.cz/gitwiki/GitTips#head-09f587b7791b46d995947704f9ddc4958dff54c3
12:48:43 <fizzie> Ugly but.. well, just ugly.
12:49:06 <fizzie> There's the "fake hostnames" solution you might want to use.
12:50:12 <fizzie> Didn't remember that ssh_config lets you actually override the host to connect to. Should have, since I use it myself for shortcuts like "ssh james" doing "ssh james.hut.fi" even though hut.fi's not in my normal DNS suffix list at home.
13:05:52 <AnMaster> If I want to learn scheme, what interpreter/compiler would you recommend? Gentoo seems to provide several.
13:06:18 <AnMaster> for some reason it seems guile is already installed, I got no idea why
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13:08:10 <fizzie> I think at least some programs use Guile to provide their Scheme scripting-thing.
13:08:31 <oklopod> how about installing them all, then interpreting everything in all of them, taking the md5's of results, taking the arithmetical average of those results, finding the plaintext for it, and showing that as the result
13:08:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, well it seems to have an akward prompt, no readline editing.
13:09:46 <fizzie> MzScheme is a popular one, and I think nowadays it uses libreadline for the terminal thing.
13:09:59 <fizzie> (DrScheme is the related GUI nonsense, I didn't like that at all.)
13:10:01 <AnMaster> ah thanks to google I found out how to get readline in guile
13:10:24 <AnMaster> just had to put some lines into ~/.guile
13:11:05 <fizzie> http://community.schemewiki.org/?category-implementations probably has reasonably good descriptions.
13:11:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, mzscheme doesn't exist in the gentoo package collection, so unless I have a good reason I prefer the lazy way ;)
13:12:43 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's probably under the 'drscheme' package.
13:12:58 <AnMaster> ah yes Description: DrScheme programming environment. Includes mzscheme.
13:13:33 <fizzie> It's all part of "PLT-Scheme"; DrScheme is the IDE, MzScheme is the command-line/terminal parts. Given how gentoo is, there's probably some sort of USE flag that lets you get rid of drscheme. :p
13:14:02 <AnMaster> Calculating dependencies... done!
13:14:02 <AnMaster> [ebuild N ] dev-scheme/drscheme-4.1 USE="X cairo opengl -backtrace -cgc -llvm -profile" 14,559 kB
13:14:14 <AnMaster> just need to figure out what they mean for this specific ebuild
13:14:47 <AnMaster> for example you could interpret X as meaning general X bindings for the programming language
13:15:26 <fizzie> Back when I used mzscheme it was still around version 352; apparently they've graduated to something like 4.1 now and even changed the numbering scheme.
13:15:38 <AnMaster> Available versions: ~0.372-r1 ~4.0.1 ~4.0.2 4.1 [M]360-r1 [M]~360-r2 [M]~360-r3 [M]~370.6_p20070725 [M]~370.6_p20070725-r1 [M]~371 [M]~372 [M]~372-r1 {3m X backtrace cairo cgc jpeg llvm opengl perl png profile xft xrender}
13:15:59 <AnMaster> I guess they masked them to make upgrading work
13:16:21 <fizzie> Chicken and Scheme48 are other reasonably popular ones.
13:16:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, but guile isn't that good?
13:17:31 <fizzie> That's the feeling I have, but I haven't really used it. It seems to be a bit more "Scheme as a scripting language" than "Scheme as a general-purpose programming language" implementation.
13:17:38 <tusho> AnMaster: Use drscheme.
13:17:56 <tusho> Emacs is the best long-term solution
13:17:58 <tusho> but for a quick setup
13:18:03 <AnMaster> tusho, why? I don't run X currently
13:18:03 <tusho> DrScheme's IDE is set up wonderfully
13:18:07 <tusho> even with emacs keybindings
13:18:11 <tusho> AnMaster: well, that might be a problem :-P
13:18:16 <tusho> but it's a very good way to start coding scheme
13:18:44 <fizzie> The IDE, or the X11 side of it at least, wasn't very nice back in the early 300-series, but that's pretty ancient information now.
13:19:00 <tusho> fizzie: Yeah that's not very up to date :-P
13:19:06 <fizzie> There seemed to be quite many Scheme48 devotees on freenode/#scheme back when I idled there.
13:19:17 <tusho> Scheme48 is... kind of lame.
13:19:26 <fizzie> And Chicken developers hung around there too.
13:19:34 <tusho> Anyway, even if you can't use DrScheme because of X lacking or whatever, MzScheme (its underlying implementation) is exemplary.
13:19:41 <Mony> chicken developers ?
13:19:41 <tusho> Unlike just about every other scheme, it has comprehensive and well designed libraries.
13:19:48 <tusho> Mony: chicken is a scheme impl
13:20:09 <AnMaster> $(use_enable X mred) <-- so useflag X meas --enable-mred will be passed to the configure...
13:20:09 <Mony> and in french ? :D
13:20:22 <tusho> AnMaster: MrEd is the mzscheme gui lib
13:21:08 <fizzie> My main (irrational) dislike of MzScheme stems from the fact that HtDP, which I really didn't like, used MzScheme-isms instead of standard R5RS stuff for no discernible reason.
13:21:55 <tusho> HtDP is kinda crap yea
13:21:58 <fizzie> Still, the PLT set of libraries is very good indeed.
13:22:07 <tusho> Lemme find that _awesome_ tutorial I found a while back
13:22:34 <tusho> AnMaster: How to Design Programs.
13:22:34 <fizzie> AnMaster: How to Design Programs, a book.
13:22:45 <tusho> AnMaster: Here, lemme give you a good tutorial:
13:22:54 <fizzie> htdp.org has full text, but don't bother.
13:23:02 <tusho> SICP is a good book.
13:23:11 <tusho> But it won't help you learn Scheme as a programming language for doing things in.
13:23:25 <tusho> SICP's only relation to scheme is that it happens to be a good language for what it does.
13:23:41 <tusho> http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme.html
13:23:47 <tusho> Teach Yourself Scheme in Fixnum Days
13:23:51 <fizzie> Hah, good old Fixnum Days.
13:24:05 <fizzie> Mentioned in the course material listing for our Scheme course.
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13:24:23 <fizzie> Was about to suggest the same thing but decided to wait to see if it's the same.
13:24:30 <AnMaster> hm the design of the "page turner" is the same as for the online scip
13:24:48 <tusho> http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/tex2page/tex2page-doc.html
13:24:58 <tusho> the R5R* standards for scheme use it too
13:25:10 <AnMaster> tusho, stop breaking my conspiration(sp?) theories!
13:25:17 <tusho> AnMaster: Constipation theories!
13:25:34 <fizzie> tusho: R*RS instead of R5R*, maybe? :p
13:25:45 <tusho> fizzie: Shut up. :-P
13:25:47 <AnMaster> tusho, no don't think that is right....
13:25:51 <fizzie> "Revised^5 Report on the Algorithmic Language *"
13:25:52 <tusho> R6RS is not Scheme! :<
13:26:04 <tusho> AnMaster: No it's definitely constipation theories.
13:26:13 <AnMaster> Definitions of Constipation on the Web:
13:26:13 <AnMaster> * Bowel movements are infrequent or incomplete.
13:26:14 <tusho> AnMaster: I'm telling you this for prosteriority.
13:26:53 <AnMaster> konspiration in Swedish... so I guess it should be conspirator theories or something?
13:27:30 <fizzie> "Cons-piracy", how Scheme-ish.
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13:28:11 <AnMaster> btw that mzscheme seems to take ages to compile
13:28:28 <tusho> perhaps it does, that's why source-based distros are stupid
13:28:34 <fizzie> It has that one compilation-optimilization step that takes quite a long time.
13:29:10 <AnMaster> I think it is more due to that download haven't finished yet in fact...
13:29:39 <AnMaster> and that is very odd, since usually I get better speed than this
13:29:45 <fizzie> Aw, mzscheme doesn't define the /c([ad]+)r/ functions for cases where length($1)>4. :/
13:30:03 <tusho> fizzie: The spec doesn't require it to.
13:30:08 <tusho> R5RS just defines those functions.
13:30:22 <fizzie> Sure, but it doesn't forbid it either.
13:33:14 <AnMaster> doesn't everything have a return value in scheme? At least the REPL doesn't print out what (if anything) (define x 3) returns
13:34:33 <tusho> AnMaster: (define x 3) returns an unspecified value
13:34:38 <fizzie> It has an unspecified value, yes.
13:34:42 <tusho> Which has a representation of the null string.
13:34:48 <tusho> There's a way to make it print as #<void>, iirc.
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13:35:45 <tusho> From: Bayes <bayes@eso-std.org>
13:35:45 <tusho> To: agora-business@agoranomic.org
13:35:45 <tusho> Subject: BUS: Bayes voting
13:35:45 <tusho> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 12:32:14 +0000 (UTC)
13:35:46 <tusho> Bayes votes as follows:
13:35:47 <fizzie> Yes, actually it might be more correct to say that (in MzScheme) it has the representation #<void>, and the REPL doesn't print it.
13:35:51 <tusho> bayes 2008-10-01 13:10:18 +0100
13:36:14 <tusho> (The timestamp is the version btw.)
13:37:06 <fizzie> (display (set! x 42)) prints "#<void>", after all.
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13:38:16 <fizzie> tusho: Weren't you a Django person? Is it any good?
13:38:20 <tusho> So. 199 lines of code (+ 56 but that's just the script I used to take a look at how it votes) just voted on two agoran proposals as a partnership.
13:38:27 <tusho> fizzie: Yes, Django is good.
13:38:34 <tusho> fizzie: Don't read djangobook.com, it's outdated.
13:38:37 <fizzie> It seemed good to me, but I've been wrong before.
13:38:40 <tusho> fizzie: Try the official site's tutorial for a starter.
13:39:00 <fizzie> Yes, that's what I've been reading, as well as links from it. So far it has seemed nice.
13:39:53 <fizzie> The automagically generated "admin" thing sounds rather gimmicky, but can't deny the usefulness of it. Of course this is not the right place to talk about useful things.
13:40:05 <tusho> fizzie: it sounds gimmicky but it's actually useful.
13:40:13 <tusho> ofc, you have to use the admin models to get it to work nicely
13:40:19 <tusho> but that's less work than recoding a whole admin interface again
13:40:26 <tusho> Also, its built in authentication framework is good.
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13:40:47 <tusho> I had troubles using it first - Not Invented Here and all that
13:40:52 <tusho> but when I decided to try it it's actually really good
13:41:11 <tusho> (Save this link for later if you end up wanting to try the auth system: http://www.b-list.org/weblog/2006/jun/06/django-tips-extending-user-model/)
13:42:56 <fizzie> Actually I came across that one already. Yes, I think I'll try it. Usually I tend to reinvent everything, but so far the existing things have seemed to be much like what I would have written myself, except with more features that don't really hurt.
13:44:52 <tusho> fizzie: That's the problem with avoiding NIH - the stuff that you use has to fit your mental model. The other option is having a non-opinionated framework that lets you tweak it to how you want, but that's often more effort for you than just reinventing it, and also is way more effort for the framework writer.
13:44:54 <AnMaster> http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-Z-H-4.html <-- that got an issue, it mentions expt, but not what expt is....
13:45:05 <AnMaster> seems like it is an odd name for pow() in many other languages
13:45:41 <tusho> AnMaster: expt = exponential
13:46:02 <tusho> I was wondering what problem you had with it but then realised you probably don't know english mathematical terminology's abbreviations :-P
13:46:54 <fizzie> Some slack may be cut for it since the context -- "+, -, *, /, expt" -- gives a strong cue.
13:47:18 <AnMaster> (define (^ x y) (expt x y)) <-- no idea if that is a good idea, but seems to work, in guile, still waiting for mzscheme to finish building
13:47:42 <fizzie> You can just (define ^ expt) if you like.
13:48:08 <tusho> AnMaster: You don't wanna do that.
13:48:12 <tusho> Guile is the worst thing you could use
13:48:19 <tusho> It doesn't nearly come close to obeying R5Rs..
13:48:29 <AnMaster> tusho, yes it just happened to be installing, and I'm waiting for drscheme to install
13:48:48 <AnMaster> setup-plt: making: scribblings/quick/images
13:48:48 <AnMaster> setup-plt: making: scribblings/reference
13:48:48 <AnMaster> setup-plt: in scribblings/reference
13:48:49 <tusho> AnMaster: Anyway, generally, trying to get a language to act like another for familiarity (e.g. that ^ trick) will just hamper your learning of it.
13:49:13 <AnMaster> no I don't claim it is a good idea
13:49:44 <tusho> Is that like a really bad accessing control list?
13:50:07 <AnMaster> tusho, I think it is virulent bda spleeing
13:55:12 <AnMaster> is there anyone who *don't* dislike pascal?
13:56:25 <AnMaster> oh yes the author of the language
13:56:34 <tusho> Pascal isn't _bad_, anyway.
13:56:53 <AnMaster> well yeah, Delphi however is bad
13:57:07 <AnMaster> since it is pascal with object orientation bolted on in a horrible way
13:57:15 <AnMaster> Delphi for .NET is *even* worse
13:57:37 <tusho> If you ever see the words "OOP", "bolted" and "on" in the same sentence, run the hell away.
13:57:54 <tusho> That includes C++.
13:58:45 <AnMaster> hm interesting both python and guile fail seriously under valgrind
13:59:02 <AnMaster> tusho, and yes I agree about C++
13:59:12 <AnMaster> nothing wrong with OOP, if it is done correctly IMO
13:59:26 <tusho> Oh, and the same goes for Java.
13:59:35 <tusho> There are some actual Java usecases, but it's not a good language.
14:00:14 <tusho> AnMaster: Obj-C sidesteps the issue by not integrating its OOP at all.
14:00:20 <tusho> It has two halfs: a C half and a Smalltalky half.
14:00:23 <tusho> And you can mingle them.
14:00:37 <tusho> Sure, it's a bit glaring, but it doesn't involve any ugly sticky-tape.
14:00:38 <AnMaster> tusho, what? mix one bit from each?
14:01:33 <AnMaster> thankfully I guess no one tried to mix intercal with c and smalltalk, Yes I know about CLC's lectures...
14:02:41 <AnMaster> setup-plt: rendering: xml/xml.scrbl
14:02:41 <AnMaster> setup-plt: re-rendering: compiler/cffi.scrbl
14:02:50 <AnMaster> mzscheme really got a weird build process
14:03:01 <tusho> AnMaster: That's why people don't build it manually...
14:03:02 <AnMaster> I think it is generating documentation or something
14:03:16 <AnMaster> setup-plt: --- building documentation ---
14:03:53 <AnMaster> tusho, no download from the official website for my platform
14:04:09 <tusho> AnMaster: See, if you were using a binary distro... :-P
14:04:17 <tusho> hm, when I pasted Bayes' votes I didn't show the proposals it voted on
14:04:19 <tusho> Anyone interested?
14:04:46 <AnMaster> tusho, I am using a binary distro.
14:04:58 <AnMaster> Just the binaries are generated locally
14:04:59 <tusho> AnMaster: Really? Which one? :-P
14:05:12 <tusho> That's just twisting terminology.
14:05:16 <AnMaster> tusho, I got /bin/cat not /bin/cat.c
14:05:22 <tusho> AnMaster: That's just twisting terminology.
14:06:06 <tusho> Hmm, I should make bayes run on a cronjob.
14:06:10 <tusho> Every hour or so, process the new email
14:06:18 <tusho> bayes@rutian:~$ python bayes/bayes.py
14:06:21 <tusho> I like that output
14:06:26 <tusho> '... there's nothing here for me. Huh?'
14:06:28 <AnMaster> I'm using a source based binary distro
14:06:40 <AnMaster> even more, the install cd had binaries, not just source
14:06:41 <tusho> (The dots represent a message it didn't process save for deleting.)
14:07:03 <tusho> If anyone wants to see the proposals Bayes voted on: ##nomic-flood
14:07:18 <AnMaster> tusho, ah we got to the binary phase
14:07:26 <AnMaster> it is merging the binaries to the file system now
14:07:54 <tusho> Nobody cares about Bayes. :-(
14:08:01 <tusho> It's a program! That decides if things are good or not!
14:08:13 <AnMaster> I use SpamBayes myself for email filtering
14:08:52 <tusho> AnMaster: Funny you should say that. Bayes uses SpamBayes, being written in Python, as a library.
14:10:15 <tusho> AnMaster: Interesting? Good. Get yer ass over to ##nomic-flood. :D
14:10:28 <AnMaster> tusho, but I think that 96% of my "ham" email could be found using this regex for subject: ^\[[^\]]+-(devel|svn|commit)\]
14:11:04 <AnMaster> tusho, oh and I'm not interested in nomics
14:11:16 <tusho> AnMaster: But Bayes is cool.
14:11:40 <AnMaster> wtf, mzscheme ran tex config stuff at end of install
14:12:10 <AnMaster> source download was around 14 MB
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14:12:31 <tusho> fizzie: Fine, you go to ##nomic-flood then. :-P
14:13:07 <fizzie> I have absolutely no clue what the whole "nomic" thing is about, it's all so confusing.
14:13:26 <tusho> fizzie: Nomic is a game where the rules let you change the rules.
14:13:35 <tusho> Here's a minimal nomic of one rule:
14:13:46 <AnMaster> DrScheme cannot process programs until you choose a programming language.
14:13:46 <AnMaster> Either select the “Choose Language...” item in the “Language” menu, or get guidance.
14:13:48 <tusho> 1. Any player can propose a change to the rules. If all the other players agree to that change, it takes effect.
14:14:01 <tusho> AnMaster: Choose Language -> MzScheme
14:14:06 <tusho> err, MzScheme (Full)
14:14:14 <tusho> fizzie: 1. Any player can propose a change to the rules. If all the other players agree to that change, it takes effect.
14:15:46 <fizzie> The language subset thing it has _was_ a bit silly.
14:16:42 <tusho> Those shouldn't be under "legacy languages".
14:16:48 <tusho> AnMaster: you fucked up the install
14:16:57 <tusho> AnMaster: Yes, yes you did.
14:17:01 <tusho> Because I have never seen that before.
14:17:26 <tusho> AnMaster: Generally, if everybody I know has the right screen and so do I and you have a messed up version of it...
14:17:31 <tusho> I'd not place the blame on anything but your install.
14:17:32 <fizzie> It should have a "PLT" group there, with the sensible settings.
14:17:56 <tusho> AnMaster: 'Pretty Big' is the right language, but somehow I doubt it'll work.
14:17:58 <tusho> Fix your install...
14:18:52 <tusho> Select 'Pretty Big'.
14:18:56 <tusho> It's the one you want to use.
14:19:05 <AnMaster> tusho, http://omploader.org/vc2du
14:19:06 <tusho> Its name makes more sense in the correct hierarchy:
14:19:26 <tusho> AnMaster: Yes, just click OK.
14:19:43 <AnMaster> wait isn't scheme case sensitive?
14:20:25 <tusho> AnMaster: Have you read R5RS?
14:21:21 <AnMaster> Welcome to MzScheme v4.1 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2008 PLT Scheme Inc.
14:21:21 <AnMaster> reference to undefined identifier: X
14:21:35 <tusho> AnMaster: Different language.
14:21:44 <tusho> Select Pretty Big in DrScheme and go with it.
14:22:10 <AnMaster> tusho, different? So it isn't scheme?
14:22:30 <tusho> AnMaster: It is a variation on scheme with case sensitive turned on, presumably.
14:22:45 <tusho> Seriously: Pretty Big, OK, continue reading fixnum days. :P
14:23:15 <AnMaster> tusho, well http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-Z-H-3.html#node_chap_1 suggests command line mzscheme
14:23:26 <tusho> Fine. Then use command-line mzscheme.
14:23:39 <AnMaster> just indeed it states "normally case insensitive"
14:23:50 <tusho> Just go with what fixnum days says.
14:23:59 <tusho> Huh. I just installed 4.1 and get the same language selection box as you.
14:24:07 <tusho> Youre meant to us "Module"
14:24:14 <tusho> which uses whatever language is specified in the module header
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14:24:31 <tusho> AnMaster: Prior to that I had no reason to believe it was not your install.
14:24:50 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe you should be more careful in the future? ;P
14:25:04 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway I prefer to work from REPL instead of files
14:25:15 <fizzie> Yes, R5RS defines that an implementation has a "preferred case" to which it converts all symbols. (Except those generated by string->symbol, which can have characters in a nonstandard case.)
14:25:19 <tusho> DrScheme is a REPL+file environment.
14:25:30 <tusho> Anyway, just do what Fixnum Days says.
14:25:57 <AnMaster> anyway readline doesn't work in command line mzscheme
14:26:33 <tusho> AnMaster: Use rlwrap.
14:26:49 <tusho> mzscheme -il readline
14:27:14 <tusho> (install-readline!)
14:27:28 <AnMaster> -il readline *did* work. it seems?
14:27:37 <tusho> You can do (install-readline!) now.
14:27:41 <tusho> So that just 'mzscheme' will use readline.
14:27:50 <AnMaster> reference to undefined identifier: install-readline!
14:28:09 <tusho> mzscheme -il readline
14:28:11 <fizzie> And actually: R6RS Scheme _is_ case-sensitive.
14:28:13 <tusho> (install-readline!)
14:28:19 <tusho> fizzie: R6RS sucks.
14:28:24 <tusho> And nobody sane uses it.
14:28:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, so R5RS is case sensitive? or undefined?
14:28:45 <tusho> R5RS is case insensitive.
14:28:52 <tusho> R6RS is case sensitive.
14:28:52 <fizzie> Case-insensitive, after a fashion.
14:28:58 <tusho> And R6RS probably didn't actually pass properly.
14:29:07 <tusho> (The committee ... weren't too careful with their votes.)
14:29:17 <tusho> (Also, they used a stupid-shit vote counting algorithm)
14:29:23 <tusho> (That essentially meant it would pass no matter what)
14:29:38 <tusho> All of the major scheme implementations have basically said that they're not implementing R6RS.
14:29:46 <fizzie> In R5RS symbols are turned into the implementation's preferred case in most cases (pun unintended), which makes it pretty case-insensitive.
14:30:24 <fizzie> MzScheme has been case-sensitive by default a reasonably long time, though.
14:30:48 <tusho> Anyway just do what fixnum says, srsly
14:31:32 <tusho> AnMaster: why is that hm
14:31:38 <tusho> Not single assignment.
14:31:40 <AnMaster> and what is the difference between set! and define there
14:31:47 <AnMaster> they seem to work exactly the same
14:31:52 <AnMaster> tusho, oh it is another variable?
14:32:04 <tusho> But in R5RS syntax, define can only appear at the start of a function.
14:32:07 <tusho> set! can appear anywhere.
14:32:16 <tusho> As R5RS specifies it:
14:32:20 <tusho> define is basically purely functional
14:32:24 <tusho> set! is destructive
14:32:29 <tusho> But yeah, in a REPL they have no difference.
14:32:48 <AnMaster> so in a function you will get an error when trying to change using define?
14:33:01 <tusho> It'll just shadow the variable.
14:33:07 <tusho> (lambda () foobar (define ...))
14:33:09 <tusho> Is technically illegal.
14:33:14 <tusho> I don't think any impls enforce that...
14:33:17 <fizzie> Er, of course they have a difference: set! can't set an undefined identifier.
14:33:23 <tusho> fizzie: Well, that too.
14:34:15 <tusho> http://www.offensive-security.com/movies/vistahack/vistahack.html OMG IF SOMEONE HAS PHYSICAL ACCESS TO YOUR MACHINE THEY CAN HACK IN TO IT :O :O :O
14:35:05 <AnMaster> tusho, so... how does a shadowed definition differ from a changed definition? If scheme have pointers or references I could see how, but does it have that?
14:35:25 <tusho> (define (foo) (define a 3) a)
14:35:43 <tusho> (define (foo) (set! a 3) a)
14:36:05 <fizzie> Oh, and I have another difference: you can't use "(set! (x a) (+ a 1))" as a shorthand for "(set! x (lambda (a) (+ a 1)))", but with define you can.
14:36:21 <fizzie> Nit-picking: it's what I do.
14:36:33 <tusho> fizzie: FIZZIE: nitpicking
14:36:41 <tusho> Imagine that on a motivational poster, would you.
14:37:10 <fizzie> Admittedly, even R5RS says: "At the top level of a program, a definition -- has essentially the same effect as the assignment expression -- if <variable> is bound."
14:37:10 <oerjan> FIZZIE: for all your nitpicking needs
14:41:05 <tusho> oerjan: did any programs play agora back in the day?
14:43:12 <tusho> Cool. I think Bayes will be the first mechanical playing machine, then. (PerlNomic Partnership doesn't count, it just does things like vote by proxy of the players.)
14:43:56 <AnMaster> reference to undefined identifier: set-car! <-- huh?
14:44:11 <tusho> AnMaster: In PLT Scheme 4, they made all conses immutable by default.
14:44:19 <tusho> It makes things faster and also more functionally.
14:44:24 <AnMaster> tusho, well was just following fixnum days
14:44:31 <tusho> AnMaster: Yeah, well,
14:44:31 <AnMaster> trying out the bits in order to learn
14:45:00 <tusho> (Note: I disagree with the choice to move to immutable conses by default)
14:45:31 <AnMaster> tusho, well I would like to use a standard following scheme
14:45:42 <tusho> AnMaster: It's not a problem.
14:45:48 <tusho> Most code doesn't use set-car!/set-cdr!.
14:46:04 <tusho> When it does, just use mcons/mcar/mcdr/set-mcar!/set-mcdr!
14:46:06 <tusho> But that's a very rare case.
14:46:13 <tusho> AnMaster: set-car!/set-cdr! is considered quite poor style
14:46:20 <tusho> for large values of quite
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14:46:43 <AnMaster> tusho, yes I understand that, still I assume not all other implementations have the m names
14:46:54 <tusho> AnMaster: Scheme code is not portable. End of.
14:47:04 <tusho> None of the libraries - at all - or the ways of loading them - are portable.
14:47:09 <tusho> SRFI libraries, yes, portable.
14:47:11 <tusho> But not the ways to load them.
14:47:26 <tusho> it is impossible to write a non-trivial R5RS program that runs on multiple implementations without modification.
14:47:42 <tusho> Best option: Deal with it, use PLT Scheme's dialect, because it has a big user community and is the best impl.
14:47:59 <tusho> R6RS is laughable.
14:48:08 <tusho> It only passed because they decided to count the votes in a retarded way,
14:48:11 <tusho> there is NO user community,
14:48:20 <AnMaster> maybe common lisp is more portable?
14:48:22 <tusho> only a handful of implementations - none with substantial libraries - although R6RS does have more libraries built in -
14:48:31 <tusho> and also R6RS' built in libraries are quite unschemish
14:48:34 <tusho> AnMaster: Yes, but still not by much.
14:48:46 <tusho> Common Lisp has a way to print numbers in roman numerals built-in
14:48:50 <tusho> but no standard networking library.
14:48:53 <tusho> Also, scheme is nicer.
14:49:01 <tusho> My advice: Just stick with PLT...
14:49:07 <tusho> AnMaster: No, INTERCAL does it in another way
14:49:15 <tusho> With its extra lines for _ super/subscripts
14:49:54 <AnMaster> tusho, well then, what about a fixnum days compatible scheme? Does that exist?
14:50:09 <tusho> AnMaster: Yes, it's called "obsolete PLT scheme". Honestly, though: It hasn't changed much.
14:50:13 <tusho> mcons is probably the only major snag you'll hit
14:50:19 <tusho> and I doubt fixnum uses set-car!/set-cdr! much anyway
14:53:59 <fizzie> Re MzScheme, since version 4 there's the command-line executable "plt-r5rs" which loads MzScheme in R5RS mode -- that might even match fixnum's language better than current default PLT scheme.
14:54:30 <fizzie> I don't really have a good guess to how much PLT-isms there are in fixnum.
14:54:55 <fizzie> At least the case-sensitivity seems to go away in "plt-r5rs". :p
14:55:18 <fizzie> (And conses become mutable, obviously.)
14:55:45 <tusho> I would just use mzscheme.
14:55:58 <tusho> since everyone else does
14:56:24 <AnMaster> tusho, that is case sensitive, which you claimed scheme wasn't ;P
14:56:33 <tusho> AnMaster: no, I said R5RS scheme wasn't
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15:42:28 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numbers
15:48:17 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | for backup files.
15:50:13 * oerjan doesn't think people would be happy if he started using #esoteric for backup
15:51:05 <AnMaster> tusho, I think I hit another such incompatiblity
15:51:22 <AnMaster> tusho, http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-Z-H-6.html#node_sec_4.3
15:51:53 <AnMaster> "reference to undefined identifier: c
15:52:06 <tusho> AnMaster: "The clause whose head contains the value of c is chosen."
15:52:13 <tusho> My placeholder variables, let me show you them.
15:52:54 * AnMaster got a cold so not thinking 100% straight atm
15:53:06 <tusho> AnMaster: Try going on hold.
15:54:52 <tusho> kCongrats, you speak less sense than fungot...
15:54:53 <fungot> tusho: a multiline text box in a post regarding stalin 0.9, but i
15:55:47 <tusho> stalin is a scheme impl
15:55:58 <tusho> only restricted R*4*RS though
15:56:04 <tusho> its hyper-optimizing
16:00:28 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: yeah lzw is used in gif
16:04:35 <fizzie> fungot: Care to write me a Funge-98 Scheme implementation so that I can add a ^scheme command?
16:04:36 <fungot> fizzie: i deliberately made some things different from scsh?
16:04:52 <fizzie> fungot: You mean you already *have* written one?
16:04:52 <fungot> fizzie: ( fnord ' dwim) ( dwim) will do anything, and 3
16:05:12 <oerjan> that's some kickass scheme implementation
16:06:05 <fizzie> fungot: Anything _and_ three! Wow!
16:06:06 <fungot> fizzie: where is scsh? that is a very original thought....are you a poet?
16:06:55 <fizzie> I think I'm being dissed here.
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16:34:22 <Deewiant> fizzie: try using Sponge to compile Sponge itself into Befunge
16:51:39 <fizzie> I don't think it's capable of compiling itself at the moment.
16:51:54 <tusho> fizzie: wut is sponge
16:52:05 <fizzie> "Sponge - a compiler (in Common Lisp) from a tiny subset of Scheme to Befunge 98."
16:52:27 <AnMaster> tusho, Well, copy-pasting the definition of when from http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-Z-H-10.html#node_sec_8.1 caused "reference to undefined identifier: IF" when trying to use the macro later
16:52:29 <tusho> fizzie: Didjoo write it?
16:52:41 <tusho> AnMaster: case sensitive
16:52:41 <AnMaster> tusho, which explains why I couldn't get it to work on it's own
16:52:49 <tusho> AnMaster: should be "if'
16:53:11 <tusho> AnMaster: now I'm _sure_ you could have figured that out yourself...
16:56:07 <AnMaster> readline::379: if: bad syntax (must have an "else" expression) in: (if (= 1 1) (begin (list 1 2 3)))
16:56:22 <AnMaster> interesting if incompatibility it seems
16:56:29 <tusho> AnMaster: Yes. That is odd.
16:56:37 <tusho> Add the else condition (third if parameter) as (void).
16:56:47 <tusho> That is what (if x y) means in R5RS.
16:56:56 <tusho> Except you can't do (void) in R5RS. :-P
16:57:02 <tusho> but easily fixable
16:57:13 <AnMaster> tusho, so which one is wrong: fixnum or mzscheme?
16:57:22 <Deewiant> fizzie: you can always extend it :-)
16:57:39 <tusho> AnMaster: Fixnum was right relating to mzscheme when it was written, but mzscheme has changed.
16:57:41 <tusho> It's all relative.
16:57:48 <tusho> Anyway, you don't really ever do (if x y).
16:57:53 <tusho> So I guess it was just for consistency.
16:57:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: Maybe I'll just write a Scheme interpreter. How hard can it be? I already wrote one in Prolog, with continuation support and everything.
16:58:16 <tusho> fizzie: Unlimited call/cc in befunge>
16:58:21 <tusho> If you do that I love yo
16:58:21 <AnMaster> tusho, also I think that macro is somehow messing up the readline history. How strange
16:58:53 <fizzie> And you definitely do (if x y)... like (if debug (display "blah")).
16:59:04 <Deewiant> fizzie: well, Prolog supports things like data structures :-P
16:59:13 <tusho> Lemme check in PLT.
16:59:18 <tusho> Perhaps AnMaster's installation actually is fucked. :-P
16:59:21 <AnMaster> tusho, using up arrow skips anything written in this session up until the end of the when macro definition
16:59:31 <fizzie> MzScheme v4.0.1 doesn't like 'if' without an else branch.
17:00:02 <tusho> (if debug (display "blah")) is probably not as functional as good scheme should be
17:00:02 <fizzie> (Except when running with "plt-r5rs" when it does "R5RS legacy support loaded".)
17:00:16 <fizzie> Functional, schmunktional, it's a debugging thing. :p
17:00:20 <tusho> AnMaster: check the docs
17:00:26 <fizzie> Of course it's easy to add a "#f" else branch there.
17:00:28 <tusho> (drscheme->help->plt docs)
17:00:43 <AnMaster> tusho, anything specific in those docs? or just in general?
17:00:55 <tusho> AnMaster: Search for 'if'?
17:00:59 <tusho> 'if provided from mzscheme's i the resutl yo uwant
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17:02:07 <tusho> AnMaster: * Use `when' instead of one-armed `if' (which is no longer allowed).
17:02:11 <tusho> So the macro you are writing...
17:02:14 <tusho> ...is now in the core
17:02:24 <AnMaster> tusho, I was just trying an example in the fixnum
17:02:36 <tusho> AnMaster: perhaps try
17:02:42 <tusho> (define-macro when
17:02:48 <tusho> (define-macro when-not
17:02:49 <tusho> (lambda test . branch)
17:02:55 <tusho> `(when (not ,test)
17:03:03 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe "unless"? would be a better name
17:03:05 <tusho> ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
17:03:08 <tusho> AnMaster: That too.
17:03:21 <tusho> might wanna restart mzscheme if that fails
17:03:24 <fizzie> I don't really see the reason to be so R5RS-incompatible in that particular case.
17:03:26 <tusho> you might have mucked up the core 'when'
17:03:32 <tusho> fizzie: No, nor do I, but oh wlel
17:06:11 <fizzie> And why unhygienic define-macro instead of the <3 R5RS define-syntax? :p
17:06:16 <fizzie> > (define-syntax unless (syntax-rules () ((_ test branch ...) (when (not test) branch ...))))
17:06:20 <fizzie> > (unless #f (display 'yay) (newline))
17:06:23 <tusho> fizzie: It has define-syntax.
17:06:27 <tusho> But it also has define-macro.
17:06:31 <tusho> is NOT the regular
17:06:45 <tusho> it's way more powerful if I recall correctly
17:06:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, because that haven't yet been mentioned in fixnum. I guess it may be mentioned later
17:07:22 <fizzie> Well, it sure looks like plain old arbitrary code transformation.
17:07:33 <fizzie> What with all the quasiquote-unquote stuff.
17:07:58 <AnMaster> blame tusho then, since he recommended that site
17:07:59 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
17:08:08 <tusho> That tutorial is good.
17:08:09 <fizzie> No, I like the fixnum tutorial too.
17:08:13 <tusho> fizzie was just commenting on define-macro.
17:10:01 <fizzie> But it's curious that he does point out one way to avoid variable capturing (explicit gensym'ing) and doesn't say a word about hygienic macro systems.
17:10:14 <tusho> fizzie: Probably because they're not the easiest thing to understand at first.
17:10:41 -!- ais523_ has joined.
17:12:52 <fizzie> I chose a topical way of saying "hi".
17:12:57 -!- jix has joined.
17:13:58 <ais523_> fizzie: is that in Scheme?
17:14:26 <slereah> fizzie : Write "Hello world!" then
17:14:56 <tusho> (display "Hello, world!") (newline)
17:16:56 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
17:17:02 <slereah> I could write it in Gdel representation, but it's kinda long :D
17:18:20 <AnMaster> http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-Z-H-11.html#node_sec_9.2 <-- is it just me or is that extremely ugly?
17:18:50 <oklopod> but it's probably a bit you too.
17:18:57 <tusho> I mean, it's not the ideal form.
17:19:02 <tusho> but I can read it without too many problems
17:19:05 <tusho> Doesn't stop it being ugly
17:19:16 <oklopod> that's actually quite pretty
17:19:19 * oerjan chases after the pod man ---##
17:19:35 <slereah> What is that function for?
17:19:55 <AnMaster> slereah, it is a macro not a function
17:20:07 <slereah> I don't know what a macro is :(
17:20:18 <fizzie> That hello-world was a bit too simple, maybe?
17:20:19 <AnMaster> well a macro is a (special case of) function too I suppose.
17:20:21 <fizzie> (for-each display (append (map (lambda (i) (string-ref "Hello, world!" i)) (letrec ((iota (lambda (from to) (if (= from to) (cons from '()) (cons from (iota (+ from 1) to)))))) (iota 0 12))) (list #\newline)))
17:20:28 <tusho> AnMaster: macros happen at compile times
17:20:40 <AnMaster> tusho, ah yes, but what about interpreters?
17:20:56 <tusho> AnMaster: then yes a special case of function
17:21:34 <AnMaster> tusho, are compile time macros turing complete I wonder...
17:21:43 <tusho> as they're just scheme code...
17:22:02 <AnMaster> tusho, would you go as far as saying: scheme functions that happen to be run at compile time
17:22:13 <tusho> AnMaster: Yes...that is exactly what macros are.
17:22:21 <tusho> Scheme functions that are run on the code and return code to be compiled,.
17:22:28 <AnMaster> tusho, so really a special case of function? compile time functions ;P
17:22:53 <AnMaster> (sorry for twisting the terminology around, don't feel bad over it ;))
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17:23:30 <oklopod> macros are just scheme code, huh? aren't there things like those weird ellipsis and shit
17:23:43 <fizzie> oklopod: They're talking about the "defmacro" style macros.
17:24:10 <oklopod> i don't know anything about those
17:24:19 <fizzie> oklopod: Well, they're just Scheme code. :p
17:24:20 <oklopod> except i do now, in case they are just scheme code.
17:25:26 <fizzie> In contrast, R5RS syntax-rules macros specify code transformers using a less powerful language. I don't think I want to make a guess about its Turing-completeness.
17:26:19 <fizzie> There's recursion, though, so they might well be.
17:26:53 <fizzie> The Internets contain claims that they are.
17:26:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, if they are tc they would be equally powerful to defmacro style, right?
17:27:03 <tusho> syntax-rules is TC
17:27:26 <tusho> http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/macros.html#turing-completeness-hygiene
17:27:33 <tusho> (Oleg has, as far as I know, never been wrong.)
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17:30:22 <fizzie> But it's not like a TC macro system would mean it'd have to be able to do all the code transformations possible with defmacro. For example the unhygienic stuff should not be possible. It just needs to be able to compute everything that's computable, which doesn't say it needs to be able to output sensible Scheme code.
17:31:16 <tusho> that is what http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/macros.html#turing-completeness-hygiene says
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17:49:41 <AnMaster> While I can certainly see some very very good things with scheme, I have so far two issues with it: 1) you end up with too many ))))) at the end of many expressions for it to be readable. 2) apart from really trivial things it is rather ugly languages, and then I don't mean only macros, but also code with no macros
17:51:01 <tusho> AnMaster: 1) Use an editor that balances them.
17:51:05 <tusho> Once you know Scheme you rarely notice the parens.
17:51:12 <tusho> 2) It is not ugly, your code is ugly.
17:51:35 <AnMaster> tusho, I was also thinking about many examples in fixnum for 2
17:51:45 <AnMaster> not just the basic stuff I wrote so far
17:51:47 <tusho> AnMaster: Then you're looking at them wrong.
17:53:04 <AnMaster> tusho, however I'm convinced (and have been for long) that S-Expressions make a great markup format for data. I'm just not convinced it is a great format for code
17:53:21 <tusho> AnMaster: And I will respectfully disagree.
18:09:57 <AnMaster> what is the full list of valid chars in identifiers in scheme?
18:10:03 <AnMaster> almost everything it seems... but?
18:10:23 <tusho> AnMaster: its in r5rs
18:10:27 <tusho> i'll dig it up in a min
18:16:40 <fizzie> Letters, digits and the set ! $ % & * + - . / : < = > ? @ ^ _ ~, if you didn't already find it.
18:18:38 <fizzie> And +, -, ., @ can't be the first characters in an identifier, except the special cases +, - and ..., which are all identifiers.
18:19:39 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:21:30 <fizzie> The rules pretty much come from "an identifier can't begin so that it'd look like a number", and I guess @ is forbidden to make sure that ,@foo is always (unquote-splicing foo) and not (unquote @foo).
18:27:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
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18:42:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, do you have some time?
18:43:41 <oerjan> all the time in the world
18:43:50 <AnMaster> I was playing around with scheme, defining a gcd function, and entered some random large numbers to it. And then I noticed an odd pattern
18:43:53 <oklopod> no you don't, because i definitelyy have some too
18:43:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://rafb.net/p/i3RhgM20.html
18:44:16 <AnMaster> my question is simple: why does it repeat like that
18:44:25 <AnMaster> seems to do so for even more 3s added
18:44:40 <oklopod> do you know any modular arithmetic?
18:44:52 <oerjan> oklopod: it's leased. if anyone claims from either of us, we'll be as screwed as those sub-prime banks
18:45:05 <AnMaster> oklopod, I do know % in C and similar and how to use it for various things
18:45:31 <oklopod> AnMaster: well more like, what's 53-235 (mod 7)
18:45:38 <oklopod> do you know the reduction rules
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18:45:51 <oklopod> you could use those to see what underlies that magic
18:45:59 <AnMaster> I assume that would be basically 53 235 - 7 mod
18:46:12 <oklopod> well yes, that's what it means
18:46:16 <oklopod> but that's not what i'm asking
18:46:38 <AnMaster> well reduction rules I don't know anything about in this case
18:46:45 <oklopod> you could try taking the first number modulo the second number, and represent them in nicer forms
18:46:50 <oklopod> and you might get something outta that
18:46:52 <AnMaster> however I don't know math terminology in English very well
18:47:22 <oerjan> hm multiplying by 10, adding 3. i am not sure that should give a consistent gcd
18:47:25 <oklopod> basically, in A <op> B (mod N), you can often do (A % N) <op> (B % N) insteda
18:47:47 <AnMaster> actually the pattern breaks at
18:47:48 <AnMaster> > (gcd 3237896520375 3094803923233333333333333333333)
18:48:19 <AnMaster> however then why does it repeat so long
18:48:44 <AnMaster> and after that 121 it goes back to repeating 1/11 for quite a bit
18:48:52 <oerjan> the fact that it hits 11 as a factor every second step is the clue.
18:49:09 <oerjan> that it rarely hits anything else may just be random chance
18:49:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, actually the 121 replaced an 11 not an 1
18:49:39 <AnMaster> there were 1 on both sides of it
18:49:43 <oerjan> after two steps, you have replaced y by 100y+33
18:49:55 <oerjan> if y is divisible by 11, clearly so is the next
18:50:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is more interesting then is that 121 repeats too, always replacing a 11, and very far from each other
18:50:37 <AnMaster> > (gcd 3237896520375 30948039232333333333333333333333333333333333333333333)
18:50:47 <oerjan> and that it cannot be divisible by 11 on the other steps is also likely
18:51:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: yes. this is explainable by moduli
18:51:22 <oerjan> because y%121 will go in a cycle somehow
18:51:23 <AnMaster> I guess it is like the 11 pattern, just on larger scale, right?
18:51:47 <AnMaster> > (gcd 3237896520375 309480392323333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333) seems to be the next 121
18:52:05 <oerjan> in fact the _entire_ gcd should repeat on a sufficiently large scale, as you take the modulus of the second number by the first
18:53:07 <AnMaster> is this true for any number? say 444... or such?
18:53:27 <oerjan> when you replace y by 10y+3, you replace y%3237896520375 by (10(y%3237896520375)+3) % 3237896520375
18:53:51 <oerjan> so each modulus depends only on the previous. and the gcd only depends on that modulus.
18:55:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, there seems to be a pattern for 2 and 4 too, but much larger than that for 3
18:55:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, however the 3 one was very simple and short
18:56:03 <ais523_> fungot: suggest a change to the rules of a nomic
18:56:04 <fungot> ais523_: can you ignore all but the most i can come back and write the program
18:56:36 * oerjan thinks fungot has ADHD
18:56:37 <fungot> oerjan: another problem is ie5 isn't used by the caller or callee.
18:56:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, now could there be a larger pattern than the 121-cycle for the "3-case"? Would it in theory be possible to prove?
18:57:26 <oerjan> well first you can prime factorize 3237896520375
18:57:45 <oerjan> because each distinct prime gives an independent part of the cycle
18:57:47 <AnMaster> 3237896520375: 3 5 5 5 11 11 71358601
18:58:16 <oerjan> also, you can ignore the 5's since you are multiplying by 10
18:58:30 <oerjan> (unless you also add something divisible by 5)
18:58:55 <oerjan> hitting that last large prime is unlikely
18:59:19 <oklopod> because you'd have to have it as a factor somewhere?
18:59:40 <ais523_> fungot: another suggestion? The first one was a bit short, so I want more info
18:59:41 <fungot> ais523_: hm. does this assume wrapping cells? sounds a bit dirty
18:59:57 <ais523_> wait... fungot actually said something that made sense...
18:59:58 <fungot> ais523_: some economy shit... https://www.osmosian.com/ cal-3037.zip
18:59:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, and possible 11*71358601 and 11*11*71358601 ?
19:00:33 <oerjan> AnMaster: as i said the cycles of different primes are independent.
19:00:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, however how does that explain 121?
19:01:03 <oerjan> if you hit 121 every n step and 71358601 every m step then you hit both every lcm(m,n) steps
19:01:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, so how to compute m? :)
19:01:40 <oerjan> to look at the 121 part you need only to look at y%121 which repeats too
19:02:02 <oerjan> similarly you can calculate the y%71358601 part
19:02:40 <oerjan> only when that hits 0, do you get it as part of gcd
19:03:27 <AnMaster> hm is there any quick method of finding out *when* it will hit 0, without trying every one possible number?
19:03:34 <oerjan> whether it actually _does_ hit 0 for all numbers y eventually is another matter. there could be several cycles.
19:05:18 <oerjan> this seems to be connected with something called primitive roots
19:05:53 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
19:05:58 <oerjan> basically for any prime p there are some numbers x such that x^n repeats only every p-1 steps
19:06:50 <oerjan> if 10 is such a number for this prime, then it is likely that every y will hit 0, i think
19:07:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, however it seems it doesn't hit 0 for every y?
19:07:34 <AnMaster> 3> 309480392323333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333 rem 71358601.
19:07:34 <AnMaster> 4> 3094803923233333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333 rem 71358601.
19:08:20 <oerjan> note that you may expect that hit to happen after 71358601/2 steps on average
19:08:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, of 71358601? Not as far as I know, all I saw was 1/11 and then 121
19:09:01 <oerjan> also, you want to take modulus after each step, and use that for the next
19:09:09 <oerjan> otherwise the numbers get huge
19:09:47 <oerjan> for 121 this should be a short calculation, as it will repeat after <= 121 steps
19:10:01 <AnMaster> you mean like... y 3237896520375 % 10 * 3 +
19:10:58 <oerjan> y = (10*y+3) % 71358601
19:11:05 <oerjan> if you are checking just that part
19:11:33 <oerjan> but let me see about this primitive root thing
19:11:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, and initial y would be something like 3094803923233333333333333333 then
19:12:24 <oerjan> you only need to consider y's smaller than the modulus
19:12:48 <oerjan> or equivalently, take the modulus once as your first step
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19:13:27 <oerjan> i wanted to rewrite that equation a bit
19:13:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, then 63375004 or something?
19:13:46 <AnMaster> 1> 3094803923233333333333333333 rem 71358601.
19:14:24 <oerjan> ... to see if my primitive root idea actually makes sense
19:14:40 <AnMaster> so (leaving lisp and using erlang)
19:15:14 <AnMaster> using 63375004 as initial value
19:15:59 <oerjan> yeah provided it actually hits
19:16:16 <oerjan> otherwise you want to keep a count to know when to stop trying
19:16:28 <oerjan> (cannot take more than 71358601 steps)
19:17:29 <oerjan> as i said there is a likelyhood it _might_ take 71358600 steps per cycle, and so every number hits except one
19:18:06 <oerjan> which i'm now trying to calculate
19:18:08 <AnMaster> calc((10*Y+3) rem 71358601, Count+1).
19:19:02 <oerjan> you might want to return the count
19:19:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, returns false after a few seconds on my system
19:19:44 <oerjan> try Y = 0 and returning the count, that gives you the length of the whole cycle
19:20:39 <AnMaster> calc(Y, 71358601) -> {false, Y};
19:20:40 <AnMaster> calc(0, Count) -> {true, Count};
19:20:40 <AnMaster> calc((10*Y+3) rem 71358601, Count+1).
19:21:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, took about 0.1 seconds or so
19:21:55 <oerjan> that means it _doesn't_ hit for every number
19:23:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: 5946550 is a factor of 71358600, and thus a possible cycle length
19:23:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw for the code to be that fast I had to use HIPE, which compiles into native code instead of erlang byte code, without HIPE it takes several seconds
19:23:52 <oerjan> a number Y hits 0 only if it is in the unique cycle which contains 0
19:24:09 <oerjan> which has length 5946550, and thus that many members
19:24:21 <AnMaster> but wasn't the number 71358601?
19:25:57 <oerjan> there will be _some_ number such that (10*y+3) rem 71358601 == y
19:26:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, independent of any other numbers in front like we originally had?
19:27:06 <AnMaster> wasn't just 33333... but had some other digits in front
19:27:38 <oerjan> i am talking about a single number y
19:28:17 <oerjan> which sort of gets left out, and so the remaining large cycles get length that is a factor of 71358600
19:28:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, why 71358600 and not 71358601? I don't get that
19:29:01 <oerjan> another way of saying this (probably) is that 5946550 is the smallest number n such that 10^n rem 71358601 == 1
19:30:10 <oerjan> it is a theorem (fermat's little theorem) that x^(p-1) rem p == 1 for every prime p and gcd(x,p) == 1
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19:31:41 <oerjan> and that is, with some rearranging of equations, where these cycles come from
19:32:10 <oerjan> x is said to be a primitive root of p if p-1 is the smallest number n such that x^n rem p == 1
19:32:33 <AnMaster> aug 11 15:23:57 * tusho will be very scared on the day when AnMaster starts preferring a functional language to C for a lot of tasks. :P
19:32:46 <oerjan> but from what we've calculated so far, i expect 10 is _not_ a primitive root of the prime 71358601
19:32:56 <tusho> AnMaster: what language is it
19:32:59 <AnMaster> used Erlang instead of C, even though I knew Erlang would be slower
19:33:12 <oerjan> instead 10^5946550 rem 71358601 == 1
19:33:14 <tusho> AnMaster: but erlang lets you microptimize
19:33:18 <tusho> and think pretty low-levelly
19:33:37 <AnMaster> calc(Y, 71358601) -> {false, Y};
19:33:37 <AnMaster> calc(0, Count) -> {true, Count};
19:33:37 <AnMaster> calc((10*Y+3) rem 71358601, Count+1).
19:34:03 <AnMaster> tusho, it was the natural way to write it, in the natural language to write it
19:34:24 <AnMaster> tusho, and it was functional and tail recursive :P
19:34:50 <AnMaster> tusho, non-tail recursive wouldn't have worked since we hit 5946549 iterations
19:35:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, so what is a primitive root to that prime?
19:35:50 <oerjan> scratch that, i got confused
19:35:57 <oerjan> i am right after all :D
19:36:31 <oerjan> i don't personally know any way to find a primitive root other than testing random candidates
19:36:51 <oerjan> but they do exist, by theorem
19:37:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, are they larger or smaller than the prime?
19:37:25 <oerjan> only modulos vs. the prime count, after all
19:37:29 <AnMaster> then an exhaustive search shouldn't be that bad
19:37:34 <AnMaster> the prime is pretty small after all
19:38:09 <oerjan> 71358600: 2 2 2 3 5 5 118931
19:38:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, and is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_root_modulo_n#Finding_primitive_roots relevant?
19:38:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, I got to say that text is over my head though :(
19:38:57 <AnMaster> even more so since it is in English, and I really lack the math terminology in English
19:39:52 <oerjan> in this case it's probably easier just to test candidates.
19:40:08 <AnMaster> I can't work out the needed maths
19:41:00 <oerjan> there should be 1*1*1*2*4*4*118930 primitive roots of 71358601, by the above factorization if i am correct
19:41:09 <oerjan> so hitting one is not too hard
19:42:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, however I still fail at the maths for it
19:43:44 <oerjan> you want to calculate x^n rem 71358601 and check how fast it hits 1
19:44:33 <oerjan> Y1 = (Y0*X) rem 71358601 in something resembling your calc function
19:44:40 <oklopod> heyyy i've read the primitive root proof for prime rings
19:45:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, were does X come from?
19:45:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, which is a huge list that I map the function on or something?
19:45:36 <oklopod> stop solving your problem bask in their coolness
19:46:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: well if you want to find _all_ primitive roots
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19:46:26 <oerjan> but you probably want to stop at the first hit i guess
19:47:03 <oerjan> 0 and 1 cannot be primitive roots, so start with 2 and go up from there
19:48:15 <AnMaster> so: initial value for X = 2, Initial value for Y = ?
19:48:55 <oerjan> (makes testing easier i think)
19:49:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, and when to stop for each?
19:50:09 <oerjan> then you return the count, which should be the smallest n such that X^n rem p == 1
19:50:22 <AnMaster> calc_root(X, Y, 71358601) -> {false, X, Y};
19:50:22 <AnMaster> calc_root(X, 1, Count) -> {true, X, Count};
19:51:15 <AnMaster> but even then it makes no sense
19:52:06 <oerjan> the first line is unnecessary
19:52:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, even so what about incrementing X?
19:52:34 <oerjan> the true of the second should be Count == 71358600
19:53:09 <oerjan> this is just the function for checking one candidate
19:53:21 <AnMaster> calc_root(X, Y, 71358600) -> {true, X, Y};
19:54:22 <oerjan> you can make the second line calc_root(X, 1, Count) -> calc_root(X+1,X+1, 1);
19:55:17 <oerjan> that goes on to the next candidate
19:55:31 <oerjan> i think that should work
19:55:56 <AnMaster> well apart from the missing comma
19:56:29 <AnMaster> calc_root(2,2,1). or calc_root(2,2,0). for initial call then?
19:57:04 <AnMaster> no clue how to interpret that answer
19:57:36 <oerjan> that's not possible from what i thought we'd agreed on :D
19:57:45 <oerjan> since there is no false in that program
19:57:58 <oerjan> calc_root(X, Y, 71358600) -> {true, X, Y};
19:58:19 <oerjan> but otherwise the same?
19:58:36 <oerjan> then 7 should be a primitive root of 71358601
19:58:50 <AnMaster> it is easy to verify I assume?
19:59:12 <oerjan> well yeah but that's what you just did :)
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20:00:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, err wikipedia says g^k = a (mod n) <-- that would be --> 71358601 ^ ??? = ?? (mod 7)
20:00:34 <oerjan> you have some characters there i cannot read i think
20:00:51 <tusho> they're question marks
20:00:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, they are really question marks
20:00:57 <AnMaster> since I don't know what to put there
20:01:36 <oerjan> ends up being 71358600
20:02:23 <oerjan> you are looking at the initial paragraph?
20:02:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, basically I don't trust that program I wrote
20:03:10 <oerjan> right in that case a is any number such that gcd(7, a) == 1
20:03:59 <oerjan> it's an alternative definition
20:04:00 <AnMaster> I don't trust my own code at this time of the night
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20:06:44 <oerjan> you don't want to use that definition for checking. for that you want to use the "n is the smallest number such that x^n == 1 (mod p)" version
20:07:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, also isn't that what we did just before?
20:07:59 <oerjan> <oerjan> well yeah but that's what you just did :)
20:08:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, but that is hardly a verification :/
20:08:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, I mean verifying that my program was right
20:08:34 <oerjan> well i could try and rewrite in haskell
20:08:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, would be easy I guess?
20:09:02 <AnMaster> erlang isn't really that good at math intensive stuff
20:09:09 <AnMaster> not that it was very slow at all
20:09:12 <oerjan> don't know about faster since i'm using Hugs
20:10:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, would be nice to know how long it takes in hugs
20:10:38 <oerjan> i'm on windows and ghc's readline doesn't work there, is my current excuse
20:10:54 <oerjan> so WinHugs is a better interface
20:11:34 <Deewiant> cmd.exe remembers prior commands by itself and that's sufficed for me
20:12:05 <oerjan> i'm talking about the haskell toplevel
20:12:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, in erlang, compiled to native code using hipe, it takes about 9 seconds (clock: count aloud). This is on my 64-bit Sempron 3300+ (2 GHz)
20:12:26 <tusho> cmd.exe retains history
20:12:35 <tusho> you can just use ghc in cmd.exe
20:13:04 <AnMaster> tusho, how would that work with cygwin? and ncurses apps under cygwin
20:13:08 <Deewiant> you lose stuff like tab completion and ^U and such from readline, I guess
20:13:13 <tusho> AnMaster: It wouldn't.
20:13:16 <tusho> AnMaster: You just use xterm.
20:13:20 <Deewiant> I've never used cmd.exe with cygwin
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20:14:39 <oerjan> hm wait i remember something
20:14:45 <oklopod> http://dagobah.biz/flash/light-bot.swf forgot to paste
20:15:00 <oerjan> there is a faster way to check primitive roots once you know the factorization of p-1
20:15:07 <oklopod> i scored 194, didn't even realize the commands were counted, so i'll improve if someone gets a better score
20:15:45 <Deewiant> I couldn't do the second-last (IIRC)
20:15:59 <oerjan> because you can check only the factors of p-1 as powers
20:16:28 <oklopod> f2 goes 4 steps forward, f1 does two f2's, and turns & jumps, main just loops f1
20:16:51 <Deewiant> you have to turn in alternating directions, no?
20:16:55 <oerjan> 71358600: 2 2 2 3 5 5 118931
20:17:06 <oklopod> i didn't even consider the possibility someone couldn't pass it :P
20:17:13 <oklopod> Deewiant: yes, hardcode the other dir in main
20:17:14 <oerjan> that's not what i meant
20:17:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh well, what did you mean then?
20:17:29 <oerjan> i just repasted for reference
20:17:41 <oklopod> then again adapting to weird flash games fast is my specialty
20:17:56 <Deewiant> maybe I did something stupidly but that sounds like pretty much exactly what I did, and I ran out of space :-P
20:18:14 <oerjan> you need only check 7^n for n = 71358600/2, 71358600/3, 71358600/5 and 71358600/118931
20:18:20 <oklopod> i think i had like a third of the cells empty
20:18:44 <oerjan> because if neither of those rem to 1, then the whole of 71358600 must be the smallest
20:18:59 <Deewiant> looks like there's no way to skip to that level
20:19:05 <Deewiant> so I can't be bothered to take another look
20:19:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, since 7^71358600 seems to take ages to compute
20:19:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oklopod: Please tell a user without flash wtf you are talking about?
20:21:01 <oklopod> i disagree, it's just the levels suck.
20:21:15 <Deewiant> if it had recursion or something else it would be cool
20:21:19 <oklopod> i'm sure that's a very interesting problem, although i haven't proven it :P
20:21:24 <oerjan> need to use the mod at each step trick together with binary powering
20:21:34 <oklopod> well it's no programming, because there's no control, indeed
20:21:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah 7^71358600 is one of those too large to fit into a computer?
20:21:58 <oklopod> but it's a working concept, it has some computational issues
20:22:02 <oerjan> which means writing my own power function
20:22:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, doesn't haskell have some ready made for that?
20:22:19 <oerjan> AnMaster: er, that too i guess
20:22:32 <oerjan> not with automatic modulus
20:23:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, assume I don't know haskell, maybe I will try to learn it once I actually understood scheme macros ;P
20:23:39 <oerjan> actually i _could_ write a datatype for mod 71358601 calculations
20:23:41 <ais523_> scheme macros aren't very like Haskell...
20:23:59 <oerjan> then the power function would be automatic but i would have to write the rest
20:24:16 <oklopod> ais523: but they are simple
20:24:29 <oklopod> monads aren't, they are an impossible concept to grasp
20:26:06 <oklopod> tusho: don't give AnMaster false hope.
20:26:15 <tusho> oklopod: but it'll be amusing
20:26:38 <AnMaster> ais523, I never claimed they were
20:26:49 <AnMaster> ais523, it is just that I want to finish one thing before I start another
20:28:04 * oerjan actually did that, even if it sounded silly
20:28:24 <oerjan> Main> [(Mods 7)^n| x <- [2,3,5,118931], let n = 71358601 `quot` x]
20:28:24 <oerjan> [Mods 71358600,Mods 56502137,Mods 13189798,Mods 68358277] :: [Mods]
20:29:16 <oerjan> i made a Mods datatype that implemented mod 71358601 multiplication and almost nothing else, then the ordinary haskell ^ worked on it :D
20:29:39 <AnMaster> and makes haskell look really insane
20:30:33 <oerjan> data Mods = Mods Integer deriving (Show, Eq)
20:30:33 <oerjan> instance Num Mods where fromInteger n = Mods (n `rem` 71358601) (Mods m) * (Mods n) = Mods ((m*n) `rem` 71358601)
20:32:08 <oerjan> and this is one of the _simple_ uses of haskell type classes
20:32:35 <oerjan> there are far more insane things involving it
20:33:27 <oerjan> anyway that above was my check, it took less than a second to execute
20:34:07 <oerjan> 7 passes by the fact that none of the list elements are Mod 1
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20:42:08 <oerjan> is a way of rewriting 10*y+3
20:43:33 <oerjan> it implies that with respect to any modulus p where division by 3 makes sense, you can shift y to remove the addition.
20:43:51 <oerjan> that means any p not divisible by 3 itself
20:44:35 <oerjan> in other words, after shifting this whole problem really does become just iterated multiplication by 10
20:45:07 <Judofyr> what problem are you actually trying to solve?
20:45:15 <oerjan> um now what is the equivalence of 1/3 (mod 71358601)
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20:47:44 <oerjan> 47572401 * 3 == 1 (mod 71358601)
20:48:08 <oerjan> so 1/3 == 47572401 for this purpose
20:49:00 <oerjan> Judofyr: AnMaster found some interesting repeating behavior when calculating gcd's: see http://rafb.net/p/i3RhgM20.html
20:49:52 <oerjan> so we got into explaining that, and ended up with primitive roots and stuff
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20:51:43 <AnMaster> <oerjan> anyway that above was my check, it took less than a second to execute
20:51:43 <AnMaster> <oerjan> 7 passes by the fact that none of the list elements are Mod 1
20:51:58 <AnMaster> does that mean that 7 wasn't a valid result?
20:52:10 <oerjan> no, that means 7 is a primitive root
20:52:52 <oerjan> since 7^n is _not_ 1 for those n's tested there, the smallest possibility remaining is the one we want, 71358600
20:52:55 <AnMaster> <oerjan> 47572401 * 3 == 1 (mod [007F] 71358601) <--??
20:53:10 <AnMaster> what was that char I'm missing?
20:53:51 <oerjan> i think that was a ^V that happened when i got confused about cut/paste between windows and xterm. i didn't see it myself.
20:54:17 <oerjan> does this look the same: ?
20:54:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is a <space><space> question mark
20:54:56 <oerjan> that was a ^V followed by delete
20:54:58 <AnMaster> <space>[007F]<space><question mark>
20:55:19 <oerjan> ^V inserts a character literally in irssi i think
20:55:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, ^V in most terminals means "treat next char as literal, not escape code" iirc
20:56:03 <AnMaster> not sure if that is terminal or app
20:56:04 <ais523_> control-shift-V is paste in gnome-terminal
20:56:27 <AnMaster> ^V^C in bash in console inserts a literal ^C, that is one char wide according to arrow keys
20:56:55 <oerjan> irssi is sort of bash or emacs inspired i think
20:57:53 <ais523_> bash's keybindings are loosely based on Emacs
20:58:02 <AnMaster> and why are you not on your laptop
20:58:07 <ais523_> AnMaster: not this week, it's a really bad week for me to do other things
20:58:21 <AnMaster> ais523, yes unless you use set -o vi
20:58:22 <ais523_> and I didn't bring it with me because I was giving people a tour of Birmingham City Center
20:58:42 <ais523_> AnMaster: would that mean that typing h would move the cursor to the left? That would be pretty hard to use in a shell...
20:59:09 <oerjan> ais523_: maybe you need some ESC characters too
21:00:10 <AnMaster> seems esc and a changes between the two modes in it yes
21:00:34 <ais523_> real vi isn't too bad when you get used to it
21:00:40 <ais523_> but I haven't, so I find it confusing
21:00:48 <ais523_> I can see how it would be good if I ever learnt it, though
21:00:52 <AnMaster> ais523, same, nano or emacs for me
21:01:04 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and vi *really really* sucks on dvorak
21:01:13 <AnMaster> emacs does that too, but not as much
21:01:41 <AnMaster> in fact many apps seem to assume qwerty in their key bindings
21:01:55 <pikhq> I wonder: is zsh' "bindkey -v" better than Bash's Vi mode?
21:02:08 <oerjan> heh, hjkl has got to be awkward then
21:02:27 <pikhq> Not being a Vi user, I can't exactly comment.
21:02:54 <oerjan> pikhq: hjkl are the basic cursor movement commands in vi (although nowadays you can use arrow keys too)
21:02:58 <pikhq> The Emacs of shells. :)
21:03:02 <AnMaster> -pikhq- VERSION irssi v0.8.12 - running on Linux x86_64
21:03:10 <pikhq> I don't use it as my IRC client.
21:03:10 <AnMaster> use the power of emacs like I do
21:03:17 <ais523_> maybe it should use NetHack-keys too
21:03:17 <AnMaster> -AnMaster- VERSION ERC Version 5.3 - an IRC client for emacs (http://emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/ERC (mailing list: erc-discuss@gnu.org))
21:03:22 <pikhq> I use Emacs as my editor.
21:03:36 <ais523_> and I use a whole load of editors
21:03:40 <AnMaster> ais523, I use numpad in nethack
21:03:51 <ais523_> Emacs, gedit, kate, notepad, vim.tiny, nano, cat, sed
21:03:57 <ais523_> AnMaster: my laptop doesn't have a numpad
21:04:05 <AnMaster> ais523, ah true for a laptop...
21:04:19 <AnMaster> ais523, which is why I use a full size PC keyboard
21:04:48 <ais523_> because then the right hand could stay in the usual home position
21:04:51 <oerjan> yeah anyone noticed me writing 7q45t before? :D
21:05:00 <ais523_> home position being one to the left in vi and NetHack is really confusing...
21:05:15 <oerjan> (that's what happens when i /quit and forget i have numpad on)
21:05:18 <ais523_> AnMaster: heh, different keyboard layout
21:05:47 <ais523_> AnMaster: no, NetHack letter keys don't work like that
21:05:58 <ais523_> the left down up right are all in a row
21:06:10 <ais523_> so you can have one on each of the non-thumb fingers on the right hand
21:06:12 <AnMaster> ais523, yes that is even more confusing
21:06:18 <ais523_> and the diagonals are positioned to be easy to reach with the index finger
21:06:40 <ais523_> wasd is awful, how are you meant to press the s without moving your hand position?
21:06:59 <ais523_> when I wrote games when I was younger, I generally used zx.;
21:07:04 <ais523_> to have left-right and up-down on different hands
21:07:18 <AnMaster> ais523, err easy, you the 3 middle fingers on a s d, then you can move the middle one up to w if you need
21:08:15 <AnMaster> ais523, works well doesn't it?
21:08:34 <AnMaster> anyway if time is critical I would use a joystick
21:08:56 <AnMaster> http://www.ozhardware.com.au/images/stories/review_images/Input%20Devices/Saitek%20X52%20Pro/x52top.jpg <-- something like that
21:10:13 <AnMaster> 11 axes and something like 35 buttons, though not as many physical buttons (for example those switches at the base of the joystick register as one button when moved up, and another when moved down)
21:10:25 <AnMaster> tusho, for flight sim they rock :)
21:10:37 <tusho> but flight sims are terminally boring :P
21:10:49 <AnMaster> tusho, + this one doesn't have noisy potentiometers (spelling?)
21:10:59 <ais523_> AnMaster: you spelt it correctly
21:11:10 <AnMaster> tusho, so no irritating noise either
21:11:57 <ais523_> hmm... maybe someone could make an editor where the keyboard just inserted and backspaced text, and cursor movement, etc., was done with a joystick
21:12:23 <AnMaster> ais523, implemented in intercal?
21:17:24 * oklopod wants a 4-dimensional flight simulator
21:18:51 <oklopod> i should, it's just i've yet to write even a 3-dimensional physics engine.
21:19:12 <oklopod> and for some reason there isn't that much material about 4-dimensional physics.
21:19:44 <oklopod> i don't see why anyone would care about techniques for such an arbitrary number of dimensions as 3
21:20:24 <oklopod> well, a generic n-dimensional physics engine would most likely be just as simple to write as a 3d one, it's just it might be a bit hard to debug
21:20:40 <ais523_> the problem is showing it onscreen
21:20:56 <ais523_> maybe typical 3D graphics techniques can be used to project 4 dimensions onto 3
21:21:00 <oerjan> oklopod: i think it's some nonsense about gravitational orbits being strangely stable in 3 dimensions, or something
21:21:25 <ais523_> oklopod: what keyboard has £ next to @?
21:21:25 <tusho> either 4->3->2 or two projections of 3->2
21:21:28 <oklopod> oerjan: i see, i didn't know that
21:21:32 <tusho> ais523_: british ones
21:21:39 <ais523_> shift-3 is £ on a UK keyboard, shift-2 is @ on a US keyboard
21:21:47 <tusho> ais523_: british mac ones
21:21:47 <ais523_> but shift-2 is " on a UK keyboard
21:21:53 <fizzie> Finnish keyboard has altgr-2 = @, altgr-3 = £.
21:21:54 <tusho> ais523_: not in os x
21:21:57 <AnMaster> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823200010 <-- is it a keyboard... or a keyboard?
21:22:01 <tusho> fizzie: thats more likely
21:22:21 <tusho> AnMaster: That'd be HELL for your wrists!
21:22:28 <tusho> Nowhere to rest when typing...
21:22:33 <tusho> Unless it's retractable?
21:22:36 <AnMaster> tusho, unless you can retract it
21:22:43 <tusho> it LOOKS retractable
21:22:46 <tusho> http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?Image=23-200-010-01.jpg&S7ImageFlag=0&WaterMark=1&Item=N82E16823200010&Depa=0&Description=Creative%20Gray%2fBlack%20Keyboard
21:22:46 <fizzie> There are lots of ways to project 4-dimensional things to 3d or 2d. None of them produce anything I can really grasp, but at least it's pretty pictures.
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21:23:08 <oklopod> fizzie: you would probably learn, at least to some extent
21:23:17 <oklopod> i mean, if you actually "lived" in the world for a while
21:23:20 <fizzie> I've used one of Creative's Prodikeys keyboards.
21:23:21 <oklopod> and by that i mean manouvered
21:23:51 <fizzie> It's not retractable, but there's a removable plastic cover working as wrist-rest on top of the piano-keyboard part.
21:24:01 <fizzie> At least in the model I've seen.
21:24:04 <fizzie> Not sure about that one.
21:24:11 <tusho> just get a seperate synth
21:24:20 <oerjan> oklopod: if you lived in it your retina would probably be 3-dimensional
21:25:40 <fizzie> I seem to remember there being some physics things that didn't work all too well for even number of dimensions, but no recollection of the details.
21:25:59 <tusho> fizzie: presumably because they arose in a 3d universe
21:26:36 <oklopod> oerjan: i was not talking about actual living.
21:26:45 <oklopod> more like moving a game character around
21:26:48 <AnMaster> in fact I got a separate synth
21:26:59 <AnMaster> http://www.etcetera.co.uk/products/images/ProdikeysInfoBG.jpg
21:27:28 <fizzie> Oh, there's the plastic cover.
21:27:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, I still think it would be awful
21:28:44 <AnMaster> http://images.techtree.com/ttimages/story/72065_prodikey_dm_big_picture_resize.jpg <-- that one looks slightly better
21:29:07 <tusho> ah, that plastic cover
21:29:12 <tusho> would be fine, except it needs moar padding
21:29:28 <AnMaster> the other plastic cover looks awful though
21:39:09 <fizzie> Oh, that one looks a lot more like the one I used.
21:39:16 <fizzie> And it wasn't _mine_, I just had to use it.
21:39:27 <tusho> The jews forced you to use it.
21:39:51 <fizzie> There was that second pitch-wheel-type control, at least.
21:47:39 <ais523_> <oerjan> DO CONTINUATIONS DREAM OF MONADIC SHEEP
21:48:10 <oerjan> i never got an answer to that
21:48:17 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | befunge is a hybrid of several things.
21:48:21 <ais523_> I don't know, unfortunately
21:48:28 <optbot> fizzie: time xor ref print chr int ord lc
21:48:45 <oerjan> ARE THERE ANY CONTINUATIONS HERE WHO COULD TELL US?
21:48:46 * ais523_ wonders how many of those things are part of befunge
21:48:46 <fizzie> That's an... interesting definition of Befunge.
21:49:15 <ais523_> hmm... I don't know if continuations dream
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21:49:28 <ais523_> maybe they live in serene grace, ready to tweak the time flow
21:49:30 <oerjan> ais523_: the elder god things are not technically part of it. but don't let that reassure you.
21:49:41 <ais523_> or maybe they live in perpetual fear of being garbage-collected
21:50:00 <ais523_> how does unlambda.i do continuations anyway? CPS?
21:50:13 <ais523_> it might be interesting to make a version that uses my INTERCAL continuation library
21:50:37 <oerjan> continuations are a structure on the heap iirc
21:50:52 <ais523_> I must work on that enhancement to INTERCAL which lets you do first-class functions
21:50:57 <ais523_> but without garbage collection
21:51:37 <ais523_> basically it would create virtual programs
21:51:50 <ais523_> like the real one but where the ignorance status of some variables was "stuck" and they couldn't be remembered
21:52:01 <ais523_> the virtual programs could steal control from the real one using NEXT FROM
21:52:11 <ais523_> and likewise the real program could steal back control
21:52:29 <ais523_> but that only happened if a virtual program could do a COME FROM but the real one couldn't
21:52:50 <ais523_> then, you can use stuck variables to implement lambdas, although you have to generate names for the anonymous functions at runtime
21:53:01 <ais523_> I'm not entirely certain how function return would work yet, though
21:53:49 <ais523_> probably have the NEXT stack work out which world it's in
21:54:09 <ais523_> and with a bit of trickery you could get infinite recursion by maintaing stacks oneself
21:54:16 <ais523_> garbage collection would be a pain, though
21:54:43 <oerjan> PLEASE NOTE 3=TOP 2=BOTH 1=LAST
21:55:04 <oerjan> i think those are the tag numbers for the continuation cells
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21:57:05 * ais523_ ponders the thought of getting gcc to generate INTERCAL
21:57:18 <ais523_> I think it would work better than gcc-bf, INTERCAL's more asm-like than BF is
21:57:33 <ais523_> for instance it is capable of dereferencing pointers efficiently, something BF is really bad at
21:58:35 <ais523_> running out of line numbers would be a potential problem
21:58:50 <ais523_> and I'd have to maintain the call stack by hand, I think
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22:16:54 <AnMaster> ais523, why no garbage collection?
22:17:04 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway you could solve that, allow some sort of free()
22:17:43 <oerjan> for higher-order first class functions, free() is generally insufficient
22:17:55 <oerjan> because lifetime gets too unpredictable
22:18:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, free it when you are done with it?
22:18:54 <ais523_> AnMaster: what I mean is, most functional langs do GC
22:18:58 <ais523_> but functional INTERCAL wouldn't
22:19:06 <ais523_> I will allow some sort of free, not sure how though
22:19:17 <AnMaster> ais523, also I think a.l.i would hate if you made it functional!
22:19:29 <ais523_> heh, no they wouldn't, as long as it wasn't obviously functional
22:19:48 <oerjan> AnMaster: a higher-order function may not know who is responsible for freeing a function
22:19:50 <ais523_> I was just going to add a language feature that gave INTERCAL some way of doing first-class functions if you're willing to go through convolutions
22:20:02 <ais523_> CLC-INTERCAL supports classes, and Claudio wasn't hated for that
22:21:52 <AnMaster> ais523, wait... does this mean intercal could have functions like map and such?
22:22:20 <ais523_> yes, if you could deal with the gc issues
22:22:24 <ais523_> they'd take a while to write
22:22:32 <AnMaster> ais523, actually how does the lecture differ from normal classes and objects?
22:22:36 <ais523_> but classes & lectures is an object-orientation system really
22:22:51 <ais523_> well you don't use it quite the same way
22:23:01 <ais523_> you never specify explicitly which class an object is in
22:23:11 <ais523_> instead you specify a few lectures (=methods) that you want the class to have
22:23:22 <ais523_> object=student, by the way
22:23:29 <ais523_> and then it picks a class which implements all of those methods
22:23:41 <ais523_> inheritance is possible too some way I think, I've forgotten how though
22:23:46 <ais523_> and polymorphism works fine
22:24:11 <ais523_> one unusual restriction is that all the lecture names have to be valid as times
22:24:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I was reading a.l.i on google and come across calls, (phone calls)
22:24:52 <ais523_> but times that are too late are rejected
22:25:02 <ais523_> because the interp doesn't want to have to go to a lecture at midnight or so
22:25:14 <oerjan> what about lectures that are too close?
22:25:30 <ais523_> oerjan: I don't think those are detected, maybe they ought to be though
22:27:33 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway making intercal functional would be nice yeah
22:27:53 <AnMaster> you create the function, call map, free it
22:28:42 <ais523_> I don't think it's too hard
22:28:50 <ais523_> the problem comes if you want to use the same argument in more than one place
22:28:56 <ais523_> in a lang like Unlambda it's easy
22:29:18 <AnMaster> ais523, create the function again each time?
22:29:29 <ais523_> yes, deep-copy when duplicating is one way it would work
22:29:34 <ais523_> except that's an utter pain to do
22:29:55 <ais523_> AnMaster: otherwise you have problems figuring out where to free it
22:30:01 <ais523_> you can free it either in the called function or the caller
22:30:03 <AnMaster> ais523, if I malloc a block in C it is up to me to free it
22:30:06 <ais523_> but neither works properly
22:30:17 <ais523_> functional programs are a real pain to write in C without boehm-gc or similar
22:30:49 <AnMaster> ais523, if I create a fun in erlang (yes gc...) I can often easily say when it would be out of scope
22:31:07 <AnMaster> at least functions in argument lists that are just called should be easy
22:31:18 <AnMaster> caller can just free it on return of map
22:31:44 <AnMaster> if it returns a function, then you can free it when you are done with it
22:31:59 <AnMaster> or if you plan to reuse the function often, just let it hang around
22:32:14 <AnMaster> like a fun pointing to a function implemented in a module in erlang
22:32:56 <ais523_> caller freeing seems to make the most sense
22:33:39 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah basically same style as you do with malloc/free in C when possible
22:34:00 <ais523_> well, I seem to have screwed it up
22:34:08 <ais523_> look at all the memory leaks in C-INTERCAL for instance
22:34:24 <AnMaster> (actually I often try to avoid it totally by using on stack variables if they are small and of known size, much easier to manage)
22:34:34 <ais523_> suppose you build a data structure, like a binary tree, out of functions
22:34:42 <ais523_> and you have a function that traverses it recursively
22:34:50 <ais523_> and you want to traverse the tree twice
22:35:05 <ais523_> how do you know not to free the nodes of the tree the first time round?
22:35:43 <AnMaster> ais523, suppose you malloc nodes in a linked list with downlinks in C... You use a function to traverse it several times, how do you know how to not free the first time?
22:35:58 <ais523_> in C you know the control flow of your program, so you hardcode it
22:36:01 <AnMaster> in fact I would use a final free function that traversed the structure and freed
22:36:13 <AnMaster> ais523, and this isn't possible in intercal?
22:36:14 <ais523_> in a functional lang you don't generally know the structure of the functions you're manipulating
22:36:27 <ais523_> it's easily possible in INTERCAL
22:36:35 <ais523_> just functional langs really don't like manual malloc/free
22:36:42 <ais523_> because ther information about what needs freeing gets lost easilt
22:36:54 <AnMaster> ais523, so A(tree); B(tree); C(tree); freerecursive(tree);
22:37:09 <ais523_> now suppose you're using map on a list of trees
22:37:15 <ais523_> how does map know not to free the trees?
22:37:24 <AnMaster> ais523, why would map free it?
22:37:35 <ais523_> ah, ok, so nothing ever frees automatically
22:38:25 <AnMaster> ais523, you need intercalgrind too I guess ;P
22:38:40 <ais523_> shouldn't be too hard, actually
22:38:49 <ais523_> INTERCAL is one of the langs where that sort of thing would be easiest to hook onto a program
22:38:56 <ais523_> you NEXT FROM malloc and free, and double-return
22:39:01 <ais523_> so the original malloc and free never get to run
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22:39:39 <AnMaster> ais523, well obviously you would have to translate it to intercalish terms
22:40:00 <ais523_> probably I'd just call it calgrind
22:40:13 <ais523_> hmm... maybe I could even write a garbage-collector for INTERCAL
22:40:21 <ais523_> it would have to know what was and what wasn't a pointer somehow, though
22:40:27 <AnMaster> ais523, I think GC is often the wrong answer to most problems
22:40:55 <AnMaster> there are better ways, like proper resource mangaging, and using valgrind before each commit to make sure you haven't introduced new leaks
22:40:56 <ais523_> heh, spoken like a true C programmer, but I agree to some extent
22:41:18 <ais523_> I saw a paper arguing that programming in languages with GC was about 10 times faster than programming in languages without
22:42:04 <AnMaster> ais523, very possible, and I'm fine with GC in erlang. But intercal will never be a pure functional language (which erlang almost is, with a few exceptions: process dictionary, eds tables)
22:42:28 <ais523_> AnMaster: never write "intercal will never be" in a sentence again
22:42:45 <AnMaster> ais523, pure functional would indicate single assignment
22:42:52 <AnMaster> I don't think that is realistic
22:43:05 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes with single assignment you do need gc
22:43:06 <ais523_> well I have plans to remove assignment from INTERCAL altogether
22:43:22 <ais523_> which involve effective single assignment, but without changing the variable name
22:43:22 <AnMaster> ais523, that would break existing apps
22:43:32 <ais523_> no, it wouldn't, that's the clever part
22:43:59 <ais523_> basically, beforehand, .1 <- .1 $ .2 assigns the mingle of onespot 1 and onespot 2 to onespot 1
22:44:36 <ais523_> in the new system, .1 <- .1 $ .2 solves the equation (new value of onespot 1) = (old value of onespot 1 mingle old value of onespot 2)
22:44:41 <AnMaster> well obviously you could translate it to SSA internally, GCC does that iirc
22:44:50 <ais523_> the arrowhead means that the .1 on the left refers to the new value
22:44:58 <ais523_> and - causes both sides to become equal by changing only new values
22:45:13 <AnMaster> ais523, that is in effect mutable variables
22:45:42 <ais523_> so writing .1 - .1 $> .2 would instead find a new value of .2 that was a right-invariant for .1 under mingling
22:45:47 <AnMaster> you could say x = x + y; solves the equation for a new x
22:46:09 <AnMaster> that is the exact same thing as mutable variable
22:46:23 <ais523_> the reason is that in complicated stuff like .1 $> .1 <- .2 $> .1
22:46:33 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't understand that
22:46:33 <ais523_> there's clearly an "old .1" and a "new .1"
22:46:51 <AnMaster> I can't code intercal remember
22:47:05 <ais523_> it means solve o1 mingle n1 = o2 mingle n1 for n1
22:48:21 <AnMaster> ** exception error: no match of right hand side value 4
22:49:21 <ais523_> it's more equation solving
22:49:33 <ais523_> I'm not sure of an efficient way to do it
22:49:40 <ais523_> and may have to use brute-force as a fallback strategy
22:49:48 <ais523_> still, I think addition can be written in one statement using that
22:50:04 <AnMaster> ais523, CAS manages it just fine?
22:50:55 <oerjan> i am not quite sure whether ais523_ wants to embed a CAS in the INTERCAL compiler
22:51:37 <ais523_> yes, I think that's exactly what I'll have to do
22:51:46 <ais523_> that's why I've held off on implementing it...
22:51:48 <oerjan> also, mingle and select may not necessarily behave as nicely as ring and field operations
22:51:49 <AnMaster> (%i1) solve([4 * x = x + 2], [x]);
22:52:13 <ais523_> oerjan: mingle is easy if you calculate at the level of the individual bits, the unaries are alright, select is a pain though
22:52:15 <oklopod> using the existing wheel i see; i recommend writing the solver yourself
22:52:38 <oklopod> what's the opposite of reinventing the wheel?
22:52:53 <ais523_> oklopod: using an existing wheel?
22:53:00 <ais523_> and I'd like to see maxima handle iselect
22:53:05 <oerjan> oklopod: book burning. again.
22:53:18 <ais523_> (that's the C name for the operator, we couldn't use just "select" for obvious reasons)
22:53:25 <AnMaster> ais523_, maxima is common lisp
22:53:30 <AnMaster> I bet that doesn't work on DOS
22:53:43 <ais523_> why couldn't LISP work on DOS?
22:53:47 <ais523_> I have Emacs working on DOS
22:53:55 <ais523_> and if elisp works I don't see why common lisp wouldn't
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22:54:01 <oklopod> although i guess it would have to be more like "burning the books"
22:54:03 <AnMaster> ais523_, it works with sbcl, clisp and gcl iirc
22:54:48 <ais523_> well it should be possible to port
22:54:54 <oerjan> oklopod: also, instead of running over people you end up burning them.
22:55:00 <ais523_> just because an individual program hasn't been ported doesn't mean it isn't possible...
22:55:36 <AnMaster> ais523, in fact: clisp, cmucl, scl, gcl, acl, openmcl, sbcl
22:55:44 <oklopod> please use some of your 3% of non-punny messages to explain
22:55:55 <oerjan> "Wo man Bcher brennt, brennt man sofort auch Menschen." iirc
22:56:04 <AnMaster> ais523, according to the /usr/bin/maxima wrapper
22:56:10 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I suspect this is totally insane
22:56:14 <ais523_> "<oklopod> please use some of your 3% of non-punny messages to explain" would make a good sig
22:56:18 <AnMaster> ais523, too insane for intercal even
22:56:30 <ais523_> AnMaster: you are missing the point
22:57:03 <AnMaster> ais523_, no, I just think that went way too far. Next you are going to solve differential equations too
22:57:26 <ais523_> AnMaster: you are still missing the point...
22:57:32 <AnMaster> ais523, also maxima is not fast. maybe not as slow as mathematica but...?
22:57:46 <ais523_> well, most likely I'll write my own algebra engine
22:57:52 <ais523_> that can handle INTERCAL stuff
22:57:52 <AnMaster> ais523, it can export algorithms as fortran code though :)
22:58:06 <ais523_> I suspect I'll end up brute-forcing the really weird stuff anyway, though
22:58:13 <ais523_> 65536 possibilities isn't all that many to try
22:58:13 <oerjan> if ghc could use Perl for its Evil Mangler, why can't INTERCAL use Maxima/C.L.
22:58:18 <ais523_> although 4294967296 probably would be
22:58:50 <ais523_> also, if you're assigning two onespot variables at once
22:59:03 <AnMaster> ais523, with unicode fourspot would work
22:59:17 <ais523_> yes, I've been thinking along those lines
22:59:26 -!- oklopod has changed nick to oklocod.
22:59:43 <ais523_> INTERCAL would have threespot and fivespot too
23:00:00 <AnMaster> ais523, err hm unicode with 3 dots I think exist
23:00:01 <ais523_> in fact given the typical INTERCAL behaviour it would stop at sevenspot
23:00:05 <tusho> oerjan: ghc uses Literat ePerl
23:00:06 <AnMaster> "index marker" or something like that
23:00:12 <tusho> which it invented on the spot
23:00:17 <fizzie> "the octonions are the crazy old uncle nobody lets out of the attic: they are nonassociative."
23:00:33 <oerjan> oklocod: actually, "Dort, wo man Bcher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen." says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_burning
23:00:38 <AnMaster> ais523, seven-spot would be... 96? bits?
23:00:38 <oklocod> LiteRat ePerl sounds much nicer than literate perl
23:00:41 <fizzie> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octonion under "Quotes".
23:01:14 <oklocod> oerjan: yeah, i recognize the Ende there
23:01:28 <oklocod> because that always seemed a bit of an ugly sentence structure
23:01:41 <ais523_> anyway, I used the word deinstitutionalizations earlier
23:01:47 <ais523_> I needed a 23-letter word for the FRC...
23:01:53 <fizzie> There's U+2059 "FIVE DOT PUNCTUATION" which has five dots arranged in a X shape.
23:02:08 <ais523_> AnMaster: situations in which people are released from a hospital for mentally ill people
23:02:19 <ais523_> and FRC = Fantasy Rules Committee, a long-running email-based game
23:02:48 <fizzie> If you stick U+20DC "COMBINING FOUR DOTS ABOVE" to U+2059, you get a nice nine-dot character.
23:03:09 <ais523_> AnMaster: technically it's a nomic but its rules rarely change, the nomicness is only used to improve them from time to time
23:03:30 <oerjan> oklocod: i think your opinions are a bit fishy at the moment
23:03:32 <AnMaster> ah well I lost my interest in nomics
23:03:33 <fizzie> I was just looking at how many dots you can sensibly get from unicode without it looking ugly.
23:03:40 <ais523_> basically, anyone can submit a "fantasy rule"; the only effect that the fantasy rules have on gameplay is that they all have to be consistent with each other
23:03:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, got a sample of the 9 dots?
23:03:59 <ais523_> and if you submit a rule and nobody else can come up with a rule consistent with all the existing ones for 14 days you win
23:04:09 <ais523_> there are various complications, but that's the heart of it
23:04:31 <fizzie> Maybe COMBINING THREE DOTS ABOVE + COMBINING TRIPLE UNDERDOT + FIVE DOT PUNCTUATION would look nice, and have 11 dots.
23:05:08 <AnMaster> ais523, you could make easy rules, "do not eat the blue flashing grass" should be consistent with lots of existing rules
23:05:25 <ais523_> there are various unwritten rules
23:05:36 <AnMaster> ais523, that forbid what I suggest?
23:05:42 <ais523_> also, many of the rules make statements like "All rules have a word that sets a new record for word length"
23:05:51 <ais523_> your example doesn't contain a 23-letter word
23:06:05 <ais523_> so it would be inconsistent with that rule, plus a rule that contained a 22-letter word
23:06:06 <AnMaster> ais523, well if it was Swedish then it would be easy
23:06:15 <AnMaster> we write words together to construct new ones
23:06:26 <AnMaster> I one constructed a 56-letter word in Swedish
23:06:33 <AnMaster> could probably have made it longer
23:06:57 <oklocod> you can get composite nouns of any length trivially
23:07:13 <AnMaster> oklocod, sure but in English you tend to use space between the parts
23:07:23 <oklocod> yes, but i'm takling about swedish
23:07:42 <oklocod> english doesn't have a grammar, as i've explained before
23:07:52 <oklocod> if you wanna have a few nouns together
23:07:54 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/dots.html should have a 11-dot character if I'm right, but at least my browser doesn't want to render it right. The "three dots above" character overlaps a bit, and the "triple underdot" does not want to combine.
23:07:58 <oklocod> then just bash them into a nice bundle
23:08:03 <oklocod> no one cares what's in the middle
23:08:41 <AnMaster> oklocod, I think it was of the lines of "car deformation zone engineer annual conference secretary ball-point pen tip" + a lot more and in one word
23:08:56 <oerjan> stopp svenskfanordfrlengningsfascistpatriarkatet!
23:09:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, doesn't Norwegian allow it too?
23:09:57 <oklocod> in finish all words actually end the whole sentence
23:10:00 <oerjan> but it flows easier in swedish i think
23:10:08 <oklocod> so, you can't have composite nouns.
23:10:19 <oklocod> no, that was a joke on n/nn
23:10:30 <oklocod> finnish is one of the composite nouniest languages
23:10:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't think "svenskfanordförlengningsfascistpatriarkatet" flows very easily
23:11:00 <AnMaster> fanord <-- breaks flow for some reason
23:11:00 <oklocod> also you can get quite long words by just inflicting one word
23:11:10 <fizzie> The 9-dot character at dots2.html seems to render more or less correctly; that one's five-dot-punctuation + combining-diaeresis + combining-diaeresis-below.
23:11:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, so what did you change it
23:11:46 * AnMaster slaps oklocod with a stunned seagull
23:12:16 <AnMaster> (if you get that literary reference: congrats!)
23:12:31 <AnMaster> (it is very obscure trivia for that book)
23:12:44 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, dots2.html uses just two dots above and below, since the amazing triple underdot does not combine around here. So it's less dots but better-looking. And actually dots.html had 12 dots, counted 5+4+3 wrong.
23:12:48 <AnMaster> oklocod, Discworld series, book: Pyramids
23:13:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think he stole it from Monty Python
23:13:45 <AnMaster> (I don't think most Discworld fans would realize it is a reference)
23:13:45 <fizzie> Something like "epäjärjestelmällistämättömyydelläänsäkäänköhän" is the traditional "long inflected single Finnish word", although I guess it's from dubious legality.
23:13:46 <oerjan> wait a minute i've read that book
23:14:09 <oklocod> epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydellänsäkäänköhän
23:14:12 <oerjan> there was some trout slapping
23:14:22 <ais523_> Zing! Vext cwm fly jabs Jurd qoph.
23:14:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah no trout slapping in the discworld book
23:14:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is what makes it so extremely obscure
23:14:44 <oerjan> but still, the inspiration is clear
23:15:02 <oklocod> also, there was that... epäkumarreksituteskenteleentuvaisehkollaismaisekkuudellisentelemättömyydellänsäkäänköpähän or something, but i doubt that means anything :P
23:15:14 <AnMaster> ais523, lets see... ginz, text mwc ylf sabj drunj hope?
23:15:23 <AnMaster> ais523, even if that is drunk...
23:15:45 <oklocod> epäjärjestelmällistyttämäättömyydellänsäkäänköhän isn't really even hard to parse, although i probably wouldn't use it actively
23:16:05 <oerjan> oklocod: if you say so
23:16:46 <AnMaster> ais523, care to explain? knurd makes me think it is some disc world reference... but?
23:17:29 <AnMaster> gniz texv mwc ylf sbaj drunk hpoq
23:17:47 <oklocod> järjestelmällistyttää would probably be like "to make systematic", although a weird connotation for that, so i guess "by making unsystematic (question suffix + suffix for third person)"
23:17:54 <ais523_> that's technically gramatically correct
23:18:03 <ais523_> Zing! Vext cwm fly jabs Kurd qoph
23:18:09 <ais523_> uses each of the 26 letters exactly once
23:18:13 <ais523_> if I've remembered it correctly
23:18:19 <oklocod> you can't really translate it unless in a sentence
23:18:35 <ais523_> Japanese has a poem like that which makes a lot more sense, traditionally it was used to order the alphabet
23:18:41 <AnMaster> oklocod, "epäjärjestelmällistämättömyydelläänsäkäänköhän" means "to make systematic"?
23:19:20 <oklocod> i translated it to "by making unsystematic", but there are a few constructs that would change the surrounding sentence in english, and not the word
23:19:34 <oklocod> genom at göra unsystematik
23:20:15 <fizzie> oklocod: Are you sure it's that simple? I mean, there's already "järjestelmällistyttämättömyys" which is something like "not making something systematic" -- since it's not "järjestelmällistyttäminen" -- but also the "epä-" negation prefix in front.
23:20:20 <oklocod> the longer one i just saw that in an old book, i can't parse that, just memorized it.
23:20:34 <AnMaster> ais523, and I bet you wish you could use some Nordic language in that nomic ;P
23:20:35 <fizzie> oklocod: And there are more suffixes than just those two.
23:20:50 <oklocod> the other is "not making systematic", other is "making unsystematic"
23:20:55 <oklocod> so yes, i think it's that simple
23:21:17 <oklocod> and there are mor suffixes, but they cannot be translated, i say
23:21:23 <AnMaster> oklocod, really nice language that even the natives can't parse
23:21:36 <oklocod> and if you disagree, i will /nick oklogod, and it will be futile
23:21:42 <AnMaster> If I ever consider trying to learn Finish, please remind me not to!
23:22:00 <oklocod> finnish, unless you want another bad joke
23:22:29 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> no idea about Finish
23:22:29 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> err is that 1 or 2 n?
23:22:29 <AnMaster> <oklocod> in finish all words actually end the whole sentence
23:22:38 <fizzie> oklocod: "epäjärjestelmällistyttäminen" would be something like "the act of making something unsystematic"; so shouldn't "epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyys" mean the avoidance of it?
23:22:50 <oklocod> the act of not making something unsystematic, of course
23:23:14 <oklocod> AnMaster: finish is the language where all sentences finish after one word
23:23:38 <AnMaster> oklocod, except I can't remember if it is Finnish of Finish, the spelling that is
23:23:49 <AnMaster> so it makes that very confuing
23:24:14 <oerjan> it's all the suomi to me
23:24:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, Finnish would make a good PRNG (or possibly even true RNG) if you just remove the dots over about half the ä in that ;P
23:24:59 <fizzie> I think I must sleeps now.
23:25:27 <oklocod> and i've already been tired for a days
23:25:27 * ais523_ also plans to go home very shortly
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23:27:47 <oklocod> well, didn't answer my question, but in fact answered a question i asked him many hours ago.
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04:41:21 <GregorR> Oh, the language, not the syrup.
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05:49:26 <pikhq> But Maxima is freaking awesome.
05:49:49 <pikhq> Therefore, my 'Maple project' shall be done entirely from Maxima.
05:50:10 <pikhq> Thank you, professor, for saying "if you're familiar with another program, feel free to use it."
05:59:25 <fizzie> Mathematica is nice, if you don't mind the evil capitalist proprietarynessity of it.
06:00:13 <slereah> I don't mind, as long as I get it for free
06:04:58 <pikhq> Mathematica might be nice.
06:05:12 <pikhq> Thing is, I actually have Maxima. ;)
06:05:21 <pikhq> And, of course, it helps that I know Maxima.
06:05:47 <slereah> What's the project anyway?
06:06:42 <pikhq> Just plotting some parametric functions in 2d and 3d. Kinda stupid.
06:07:05 <slereah> Do you even need any particular software for that?
06:07:14 <slereah> Any free plotting software can do that
06:07:35 <pikhq> The idea was to make you familiar with the computer algebra system.
06:07:56 <slereah> Hell, you could do it on a piece of paper!
06:08:16 <pikhq> Yes, except that he insists that it's done with a CAS.
06:08:40 <pikhq> Computer algebra system.
06:08:46 <pikhq> Maxima, Mathematica, Maple, etc.
06:09:14 <pikhq> All I learned about Maple from that is that Maple truly sucks.
06:09:55 <slereah> You might learn that Mathematica is also pretty terrible
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08:13:02 <pikhq> It seems that GNUplot, when generating Postscript, emits Postscript that computes the function being plotted.
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08:13:08 <pikhq> This will be fun to print out...
08:33:51 <fizzie> At least the printer will have something interesting to do.
08:34:02 <fizzie> I would think just printing text all day long would be quite boring.
08:35:40 <fizzie> Although my "set term postscript; set out "test.ps"; plot sin(x)" test just generated a list of vertices.
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12:55:26 <Deewiant> fungot, optbot: (Task -> Bool -> IO (Set String -> Set String -> Bool -> FilePath -> StateT DB (ReaderT Dat IO) Bool)) -> ([Bool],DB) -> Task -> ReaderT Dat IO ([Bool],DB)
12:55:26 <fungot> Deewiant: what in particular did you like? have you seen squeak?
12:58:23 <oerjan> i don't think they like Haskell
12:58:24 <fizzie> As always, optbot has a more coherent answer than fungot.
12:58:24 <fungot> fizzie: i guess plurals are out.
12:58:25 <optbot> fizzie: i could certainly have picked wrong with this one...
13:01:32 <ais523> fizzie: in this case, optbot also had a more coherent answer than Deewiant...
13:02:39 <optbot> oerjan: no one said the exact word.
13:03:33 <Deewiant> I was hoping for incisive comments about the type signature but fungot was just confused as usual and optbot decided to shut up
13:03:34 <fungot> Deewiant: ( lambda ( x)
13:04:04 <ais523> Deewiant: well that's some type signature...
13:04:12 <ais523> what is it the type signature of?
13:04:32 <Deewiant> "needsBuildingWithDB" in my make-replacement
13:04:41 <Deewiant> granted, I've expanded all the type synonyms
13:04:54 <Deewiant> it doesn't look like that in the code itself
13:05:06 <ais523> How does your make replacement work? How is it better than normal make?
13:05:15 * ais523 needs to figure out how to write AImake some time
13:05:22 <Deewiant> it's very much like make itself
13:05:29 <oerjan> optbot: you can do AImake can't you?
13:06:14 <Deewiant> 1) it's a haskell library so (I hope that) it discourages hard-coding actions like "rm *.foo" which are platform-specific
13:06:47 <Deewiant> 2) it can use either timestamps or MD5 hashes to figure out whether to build something, user's choice
13:07:20 <Deewiant> 3) it can save a database of arguments you've used in the build and then rebuild if the arguments changed
13:07:36 <Deewiant> other than that, it's pretty much make, I think.
13:07:45 <ais523> AImake is more ambitious
13:07:55 <ais523> the idea is to deduce everything about the project automatically
13:08:15 <ais523> so for instance it messes with ldd to see which files are opened to automatically calculate dependencies
13:08:17 <Deewiant> I still think that's impossible :-)
13:08:21 <ais523> so files have dependencies on your compiler and so on too
13:08:38 <ais523> and it uses nm to work out which sets of files have to be linked together to form an executable
13:08:42 <Deewiant> how do you know what kind of library to build, or whether to build one, given a pile of C?
13:08:49 <ais523> some things would be less general, and asking the user might be needed in some case
13:09:03 <ais523> and yes, that's an example where some user intervention would be needed
13:09:09 <Deewiant> so it can't deduce /everything/ after all ;-)
13:09:17 <ais523> but it would be as simple as either listing all the source files needed in the library
13:09:34 <ais523> or more generally, listing all the functions the library needed to implement and letting AImake find their sources
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14:27:30 <fizzie> oklocod: Re "epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydelläänsäkäänköhän", I think some of those suffixes are both translateable and interesting. Like "-kään", which is sort of like "not even x": "aseella" -> with a gun, "aseellakaan" -> not even with a gun. (Example inspired by the recent school shooting thing.)
14:34:53 <oklocod> the question particle is hard to translate without context, but for instance "epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydellänsäkäänköhän hän sai sen aikaan?" => "i wonder if he achieved it through his unsystematizing?" or something
14:35:14 <oklocod> "epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydellänsäkäänköhän hän sai sen aikaan?" => "i wonder if he achieved it through not unsystematizing?"
14:35:47 <oklocod> ("hän sai sen aikaan" means roughly "he achieved it", in case someone non-finnish is watching)
14:36:35 <ais523> also, I'm not entirely sure what unsystematizing means, despite being native English
14:36:48 <ais523> it seems to have too many suffixes piled on a word in a non-obvious way
14:37:02 <fizzie> ais523: Don't worry, we are native Finnish and don't seem understand that Finnish word either.
14:37:08 <oklocod> ais523: unsystematizing in pretty much any sense you can invent for it.
14:37:25 <oklocod> but, i'm not sure how "kään" + "köhän" works
14:37:45 <oklocod> köhän is a question particle you can only use on a word, to kinda wonder whether it fits there
14:37:51 <fizzie> It doesn't feel like it would work very well even in a simpler word.
14:38:08 <oklocod> well, it's like, a question, but more uncertain than a normal question
14:38:34 <fizzie> "näin" => "like this", "näinköhän" => "I wonder if it really goes like this".
14:39:12 <oklocod> i'm pretty sure you cannot have kään and köhän in the same sentence.
14:39:21 <oklocod> just cannot see how that would fit any sentence :|
14:39:40 <fizzie> (Well, for one meaning of "näin". It's also the first-person past tense of the verb "nähdä", 'to see'.)
14:39:45 <oklocod> "jalkakaankohan sinne ei mahdu"
14:39:53 <oklocod> i wonder if even a foot wouldn't fit there
14:40:30 <ais523> hmm... maybe Xkäänköhän = "it seems dubious that this couldn't even be done with X, is that right?2
14:41:12 <tusho> let's make a conlang again
14:41:13 <fizzie> Also I would have written it "jalkaakaankohan" which sort-of has the same meaning. I can't really explain the difference right now.
14:42:22 <fizzie> "Jalkakaan" sounds like "not even a particular, single foot", while "jalkaakaan" is more like "you can't even fit any part of a feet in there".
14:43:07 <oklocod> well, "jalkaa" is the partitive of "jalka"
14:43:22 <oklocod> so... yes, it means a part of the foot :P
14:43:33 <oklocod> it doesn't actually mean exactly that
14:43:45 <oklocod> because the finnish partitive is also used for plurals in certain contexts
14:45:46 <oklocod> "jalat" is the plural, "jalkoja" is the partitive of the plural, which kinda means "some feet", or just "feet" as opposed to "the feet"; "viisi jalkaa", five feet, would be the singular partitive, used when the amount is known
14:46:09 <oklocod> curiously, "yksi jalka", one foot, is singular nominative (neutral infliction)
14:46:17 <tusho> HEY GUYZ CONLANG #conteric
14:46:37 <oklocod> tusho: we can have just as muuch fun wondering what the fuck the finns were thinking
14:46:51 <tusho> oklocod: but this way we can have infinite loops in natural language
14:46:51 <fizzie> I'm not sure I want to be constructing a language since I don't even understand my own.
14:47:03 <tusho> fizzie: nor do I, and that's why this'll be hilarious
14:47:04 <fizzie> A uniter, not a divider.
14:47:21 <tusho> now get yer ass over there
14:47:22 <ais523> tusho: I define "whifllopn" to have a meaning as defined by this sentence.
14:47:29 <tusho> ais523: ... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
14:48:08 <oklocod> i want a natural language that's basically lambda calculus plus a lexicon containing sets of real-life objects and actions
14:48:22 <fizzie> oklocod: I think George W. Bush said that once.
14:48:33 <tusho> oklocod: Then #conteric is for you.
14:48:36 <tusho> AND FOR EVERYONE ELSE <333333333
14:48:48 <fizzie> oklocod: The "I'm a uniter, not a divider" one.
14:48:59 <tusho> i preferred the other interp
14:49:03 <tusho> oklocod: i want a natural language that's basically lambda calculus plus a lexicon containing sets of real-life objects and actions
14:49:03 <tusho> [14:48] fizzie: oklocod: I think George W. Bush said that once.
14:49:05 <ais523> hmm... if dubya was speaking in an English-like esolang and not English itself, it would explain a lot
14:49:16 <tusho> ais523: ...y...you're right...
14:49:24 <tusho> he's... actually a genius!
14:49:29 <tusho> just..misunderstood...
14:50:24 <tusho> ais523: No...like a fox...
14:50:35 <tusho> (Or a panda, if you stuff the two words together)
14:54:44 <tusho> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
14:55:21 <tusho> fffffffffffffffffffffffff
14:55:24 <tusho> fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
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15:38:03 <tusho> ofc we can talk though
15:38:12 <fungot> ais523: you also have this example of high-level code, which you say are so delicious. the white part of the committee, but it's
15:38:39 <ais523> 0-3 second ping times to #esoteric
15:38:48 <ais523> [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from cmeme: 1222958306 seconds.
15:38:56 <ais523> wtf is cmeme lying so badly about ping times?
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15:39:42 <ehird> ais523: probably it sends the eunuchs timestamp
16:13:44 <ais523> anyone who cares: the latest on the door situation is that they 'fixed' it and now it doesn't work at all
16:13:53 <ais523> so they're calling in engineers tomorrow
16:14:19 <ais523> meanwhile us people who have to use the computer lab simply make sure there's at least one person inside at any given moment
16:14:22 <ais523> to open the door from the inside
16:30:32 <ais523> raising elephants is so utterly ominous...
16:33:59 <ais523> ehird: it's a slight modification of a common Linux acronym
16:34:33 <ais523> "raising elephants is so utterly boring" is the acronym to remember how to reboot down a Linux system manually
16:34:47 <ais523> but in my case I've been using REISUO a bit recently
16:34:53 <ais523> to shutdown rather than reboot
16:34:58 <ais523> because things have been getting borked
16:35:14 <ais523> ehird: basically, you hold down alt, and press SysRq and the letters of the acronym alternately
16:35:34 <ais523> e.g. alt-sysrq-r-sysrq-e-sysrq-i and so on
16:35:44 <ais523> each letter tells the system to do something
16:36:05 <ais523> until after the u you have no programs running but the kernel, all the disks are set read-only, and everything's shut down gracefully
16:36:14 <ais523> at that point you have pretty much no choice but turn off or reboot...
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17:49:04 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Then you're Australian..
17:49:07 <optbot> ehird: i'm pretty sure someone will write my essay if i try for long enough
17:49:14 <ehird> optbot: that was oklocod
17:49:14 <optbot> ehird: that's portuguese, though.
17:49:18 <ehird> optbot: no. no its not
17:49:18 <optbot> ehird: until they started distributing tapes with the magazines
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19:58:31 <ehird> Nomination for Most Annoying Thing About a Default Linux Install:
19:58:48 <ehird> HI, I SEE YOUR COMPUTER HAS BEEN BOOTING FINE FOR A LONG TIME! I THINK THIS IS A REASON TO CHECK YOUR FILESYSTEM
20:00:13 <ehird> eihrd is a pronounciation nightmare
20:00:30 <ais523> I think I would pronounce it like "aired"
20:00:38 <ais523> but with extra aichiness before the r
20:01:22 <ehird> ais523: how do you pronounce ehird?
20:02:28 <ais523> anyway, I'm pretty happy with my project this year at university
20:02:32 <ehird> comex pronounces it ayherd
20:02:35 <ais523> it has esolang-like properties
20:03:09 <ais523> for instance, most operators like dereference, assignment, if, and so on, are very simple
20:03:17 <ais523> the main hangup is the duplicate operator
20:03:34 <ais523> (corresponding to : in Underload or [->+>+<<] in brainfuck)
20:03:50 <ais523> that's expected to take several months of study to implement correctly
20:04:02 <Deewiant> what on earth are you doing :-P
20:04:16 <ehird> .36666569843502..04=/0
20:04:20 <ais523> except compilation is software -> software
20:04:25 <ais523> and synthesis is software -> hardware
20:04:38 <ais523> unlike on a computer, you can't just get the hardware to make another physical copy of itself...
20:05:31 <Deewiant> so what are your source and target representations
20:06:53 <ehird> -psyBNC: Thu Oct 2 19:06:40 :connect from ai01-fap01.bham.ac.uk
20:06:54 <ehird> [20:06] -psyBNC: Thu Oct 2 19:06:40 :User ais523 logged in.
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20:09:22 <ehird> [20:09] -psyBNC: Thu Oct 2 19:09:15 :User ais523 logged in.
20:09:58 <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:06:52] <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:04:19] lt;ais523 gt; except compilation is software - gt; software
20:10:01 <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:06:52] <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:04:25] lt;ais523 gt; and synthesis is software - gt; hardware
20:10:04 <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:06:52] <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:04:37] lt;ais523 gt; unlike on a computer, you can't just get the hardware to make another physical copy of itself...
20:10:07 <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:06:52] <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:04:40] lt;ais523 gt; at least, not easily
20:10:11 <ais523> aargh, my pings still aren't returning quickly
20:10:15 <ais523> last time this happened I ended up without Internet for several hours and all my emails ended up in a random order
20:10:22 <ais523> [20:10] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 45 seconds.
20:10:26 <ais523> well, at least it came eventually
20:10:37 <ais523> fungot: let me know once you see this message
20:10:39 <fungot> ais523: http://cbs5.com/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord
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20:11:00 <ais523> so, any comments on this ridiculous concept?
20:11:08 <ais523> easy operators, near-impossible duplicate?
20:11:58 <ais523> ehird: is this some kind of new esolang?
20:12:01 <ehird> http://cbs5.com/fnord/fnord/fnord = 404
20:12:03 <ais523> it isn't a particularly productive comment...
20:12:08 <ehird> ais523: yes, it's IRP
20:12:19 <ehird> it confuses people and they do things
20:12:22 <ehird> its non-deterministic.
20:12:25 <ehird> adfskugk78wyavwa3gvaw4
20:12:33 <ehird> now it won't confuse you
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20:21:16 <Deewiant> 2008-10-02 22:05:24 ( Deewiant) right
20:21:17 <Deewiant> 2008-10-02 22:05:31 ( Deewiant) so what are your source and target representations
20:21:47 <ais523> well the bit I'm doing, they're both parse trees written in Ocaml
20:22:31 <Deewiant> where does the whole thing start and where does it end
20:25:04 <ehird> .....................
20:25:27 <Deewiant> ais523: consider ending all your messages with 'optbot' so you know whether it's coming through or not ;-)
20:25:28 <optbot> Deewiant: oh you should add continuations to Plof -- I'd write a continuations-based web framework in it and use it for everything :p
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20:26:31 <Deewiant> yes, it'll distract from all the other discussion here
20:27:05 <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:22:34] <ais523> for the project as a whole, it goes from an Algol-like 'functional' language (which behaves imperatively as no recursion but tail-recursion is allowed), to a very low-level hardware language which basically says where to put the gates
20:27:19 <Deewiant> 2008-10-02 22:25:27 ( Deewiant) ais523: consider ending all your messages with 'optbot' so you know whether it's coming through or not ;-)
20:27:20 <optbot> Deewiant: it would be like a programming language but specialized for quick calculator stuff.
20:27:26 <ehird> 01:03:00 * oerjan wonders if there would be a market for a song called "Rocking around Frostie the Red-Nosed Reindeer Roasting on a One-Horse Open Sleigh"
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20:29:20 <ais523> well, it was only a 30-second self-ping time this time (optbot)
20:29:22 <optbot> ais523: although allegedly that's more esoteric than other langs
20:29:34 <ehird> http://www.vjn.fi/s/brainfuck.mp3 I like this!
20:29:37 <ais523> yay, optbot agrees with me about the esotericness of my uni project
20:29:45 <ais523> ehird: what is that? Also, oklocod, what is that?
20:29:56 <ehird> ais523: an mp3 made by oklocod
20:32:02 <ehird> is infinitely applied cpp tc?
20:32:20 <ehird> if so, is it easy to make a file that changes for 10 runs
20:32:22 <ais523> there was an IOCCC entry once
20:32:25 <ehird> (counts as counting to 10)
20:32:35 <ais523> using identifiers that expand to #define
20:32:37 <ehird> without hardcoding 10
20:32:43 <ehird> ais523: i mean, actually some kind of loop
20:32:56 <ais523> ehird: well, the IOCCC entry worked by implementing an ALU in the preprocessor
20:33:04 <ais523> as in, actual digital logic with #defines
20:33:07 <ais523> so it would be kind-of complex
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20:56:28 * Asztal can now refer to himself as notable
20:56:54 <olsner> implements Notable? harr, harr
20:57:04 <oerjan> except, is olsner a reliable source?
20:57:47 <olsner> reliable? no. source? maybe!
20:57:53 <slereah> I wonder, can you put [citation needed] on the esowiki?
20:58:11 <ais523> slereah: well it's physically possible
20:58:15 <ais523> we don't have it templated though
20:58:20 <ais523> and esowiki doesn't actually need citations
20:58:28 <ais523> although we like to know them if they exist
20:58:33 <ais523> (the policies are different)
20:58:51 <slereah> "rjan Johansen is an esoteric programming language enthusiast from Norway. [citation needed]"
20:59:12 * ehird imagines such a thing
20:59:22 <ais523> well, I'd remove the [cn] as being pointless
20:59:31 <olsner> I think "because I say so" is an implied citation on anything not more explicitly specified
20:59:31 <slereah> "Esme is an esoteric programming language [citation needed]"
20:59:52 <ehird> <sup><nowiki>[</nowiki>citation needed]</sup>
20:59:54 <olsner> and it's good enough for me, since most of what is on the esowiki agrees with what I think anyway
21:00:06 <oerjan> many esolangs articles may count as speech acts...
21:00:09 <ais523> you don't need to nowiki the [
21:00:24 <ehird> ais523: yes you do
21:00:24 <ais523> because it doesn't form an external link unless the thing after the [ looks like a URI
21:00:28 <oerjan> because they are the main place defining the language
21:00:34 <ehird> <sup>[citation needed]</sup>?
21:02:19 <ehird> slereah: a great service
21:02:31 <ehird> your <sup> was stripped
21:03:36 <slereah> You are manly and beautiful, ehird
21:05:12 <slereah> Someone should sell [citation needed] stickers
21:05:54 <ehird> http://mazonka.com/ damn ... javascript clock, cursor-following trail and LIVE STOCK QUOTES
21:06:02 <olsner> slereah: someone probably already does
21:06:06 <ehird> it's... just like 1999
21:06:36 <ehird> http://wunumber.org/ ITT: Fragile, single-vendor GUIDs
21:06:46 <olsner> there was someone in the office working on a <marquee> bug from a customer the other week
21:08:17 <slereah> ehird : It's so not like 1999
21:08:25 <slereah> The background is too grey
21:08:29 <ais523> slereah: I'm almost certain someone does, and someone pretty famous too
21:08:43 <ehird> his name is randall
21:08:48 <ais523> sticking {{fact}} stickers on things became a meme on some well-known website IIRC
21:08:51 <ais523> forgotten which one though
21:08:53 <slereah> Well, I didn't see any on the xkcd store
21:09:04 <ehird> ais523: well, the Wikipedian Protestor by xkcd started it all
21:09:07 <oerjan> now i made a {{fact}} template
21:09:18 <ais523> yes, but it wasn't xkcd that did the sticker thing
21:09:19 <oerjan> guess where it links too
21:09:31 <ais523> oerjan: [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Citation needed]]?
21:09:37 <ehird> ais523: probably xkcd
21:09:44 <ais523> the policy that says citations aren't needed?
21:09:57 <ehird> ais523: yep its xkcd
21:10:10 * ais523 penalises ehird for starting a PoO inside a PoO
21:10:17 <ehird> should be factorial
21:10:40 <ais523> either that, or factorial / citation needed at random
21:10:54 <ehird> also oerjan i made your {{fact}} better
21:11:12 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/CUTLASS Hoax.
21:11:20 <ehird> (diff) (hist) . . CUTLASS; 12:55 . . (+697) . . 147.89.224.69 (Talk) (Added a few more details.)
21:11:20 <ehird> (diff) (hist) . . CUTLASS; 10:55 . . (+1,174) . . 147.89.224.69 (Talk) (Fairly major rewrite from someone involved in the Cutlass Kit 9 project! I hope this is useful.)
21:11:39 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=CUTLASS&diff=prev&oldid=6560
21:12:16 <slereah> Let's make an antisemitic esolang
21:12:24 <oerjan> hm these days there is a need for a BANKER esolang
21:12:36 <oerjan> it needs to blow up in a big bubble at the end
21:13:09 <ais523> also, why the lowercase s?
21:13:22 * ais523 imagines banging their head on a table
21:13:26 <ais523> just due to the timing of all that...
21:13:50 <ais523> I've had a complicated day
21:13:54 <ais523> doing busy things in RL
21:14:08 <ais523> tusho restarting my IRC bouncer half-way through
21:14:12 <ais523> meeting lots of people
21:14:19 <ais523> and AnMaster jumps in with an enthusiastic Hi!
21:14:22 <AnMaster> ais523, [citation needed] for that CUTLASS thingy
21:14:28 <ais523> which is just incongruous to the rest of the day
21:14:29 <ehird> AnMaster: why ais523
21:14:31 <ais523> ehird: the IRC bouncer I use
21:14:33 <ehird> he just ignored it
21:14:33 <oerjan> maybe banging your head on a pillow would be better then
21:14:36 <AnMaster> ehird, what is wrong with tusho?
21:14:40 <ais523> which you own, sort of...
21:14:49 <ehird> it was really tragic..
21:14:50 <AnMaster> ehird, he claimed before you died
21:15:01 <ehird> I... live in the shadow of his memoy.
21:15:09 <ais523> ehird: yes, Lisp going wrong when accessing the first element of a list is a real tragedy
21:15:11 <ehird> 2 Oct 2008: Never forget.
21:15:15 <ais523> current compilers should be able to handle that really easily
21:15:34 * AnMaster plans rewriting his custom bouncer in erlang
21:15:37 <ais523> AnMaster: actually ehird rebooted the server
21:15:37 <ehird> ITT: AnMaster brags about how he KNOWS ERLANG
21:15:46 <ais523> thus kind-of forcing the bouncer to restart
21:15:56 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe distributed cluster would help ;)
21:16:15 <ais523> well, the reason he restarted the browser was he'd basically done s/tusho/ehird/ in /etc
21:16:20 <ehird> ais523: no, you did that
21:16:25 <ais523> by getting me to edit it
21:16:26 <ehird> I did it in /etc/group and /etc/passwd
21:16:31 <ehird> and then that fucked up the system
21:16:32 <AnMaster> ais523, and why did he want to change the name?
21:16:33 <ehird> so you had to do the rest
21:16:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Because tusho died.
21:16:37 <ais523> no, you didn't even do it properly in /etc/group
21:16:40 <ais523> and the system was fine
21:16:43 <ehird> I told you - it was tragic.
21:16:47 <ais523> just you forgot to edit /etc/shadow...
21:17:19 <ais523> and the whitelist ssh used
21:17:25 <ais523> so a pretty comprehensive failed rename
21:17:31 <AnMaster> ais523, well some of use know Unix, seems tusho/ehird don't ;P
21:17:37 <ehird> AnMaster: no, blame ais523
21:17:41 <AnMaster> (maybe that will stop the spam and make him attack me instead)
21:17:42 <ehird> i asked him what i'd need to change
21:17:42 <ais523> ehird was left unable to log in about 10 different ways
21:17:45 <ehird> and he said just /etc/passwd
21:17:49 <ehird> because everything else used user ids
21:17:50 <ais523> ehird: well I said configuration files
21:17:55 <ehird> ais523: /etc/ssh/sshd_config
21:18:01 <ais523> and I said the file system used configuration files
21:18:07 <ais523> ehird: are you agreeing with me? How dare you!
21:18:22 <ais523> I said the file system used user IDs
21:18:28 <ehird> ais523: i can dig up logs
21:18:29 <ais523> but configuration files needed changing
21:18:35 <ehird> no, you kind of said that
21:18:37 <ehird> you said what happened first
21:18:39 <ehird> then sort of half corrected it
21:18:51 <ais523> and you went plowing on with the change
21:18:53 * ehird goes back to crying
21:18:58 <ais523> before stopping to wonder if it was a good idea...
21:19:00 <ehird> ais523: worked out in the end, didn't it
21:19:11 <ais523> I'll check back in a couple of years
21:19:14 <ais523> the end hasn't happened yet
21:19:23 <ehird> ais523: the lhc is turning on before that...
21:19:25 <ais523> hmm... the end probably won't have happened in a couple of years either
21:19:32 <ehird> failing that, try 2012
21:19:42 <ais523> also, I've seen an article arguing that the LHC won't create a black hole
21:19:56 <ehird> what a controversial opinion!
21:19:56 <ais523> but the large amounts of supercooled helium will cause the whole thing to spontaneously explode
21:20:07 <ais523> thus taking out most of the surrounding countryside
21:20:19 <ehird> http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html (turn on animated gifs)
21:20:19 <oerjan> that would be cool in several ways
21:20:27 <ehird> unless you've already seen
21:20:30 <ehird> in which case do nothing
21:20:47 <ehird> ok, turn on flash :-P
21:21:17 <oerjan> yeah the black hole thing is very theoretical, depending on extra dimensions beyond those currently known iirc
21:21:30 <slereah> Actually, they're trying to make the black hole
21:21:33 -!- danopia__ has quit (Connection timed out).
21:21:36 <slereah> Because it would be awesome
21:21:43 <ais523> oerjan: the black hole being created, or the black hole being avoided?
21:21:48 <ehird> They're trying to make FIVE HUNDRED GNOMES
21:22:00 <ais523> ehird: I can't turn on Flash, I uninstalled it
21:22:03 <slereah> But it only works with some requirement on the dimensions, yeah
21:22:08 -!- danopia__ has joined.
21:22:09 <ehird> ais523: yes you can - it just involves installing it first
21:22:10 <slereah> ehird : The Gnomes of Zurich?
21:22:17 <oerjan> as in, it's unlikely to require this low energy
21:22:59 <fizzie> Heh, at least there's something for the future archaeologists to wonder about, why there's a circular crater with a circumference of 27 kilometers. If it just old-fashionedly blows up and doesn't create those ALL-CONSUMING STRANGELETS.
21:23:00 <slereah> From what I remember, if you've got a bunch of dimensions, gravity would actually weakens much more quickly
21:23:07 <slereah> As it would seep into the other directions
21:23:09 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html (turn on animated gifs) <-- not gif
21:23:14 <slereah> So at short range, it would be stronger
21:23:19 <slereah> Permitting little black holes
21:23:22 <ehird> [21:20] ehird: it's flash
21:23:23 <ehird> [21:20] ehird: ok, turn on flash :-P
21:23:56 <slereah> The black hole would then evaporate, if Hawking's right
21:24:25 <oerjan> but if there are extra dimensions and Hawking's wrong, we might have a problem
21:24:47 <ehird> oerjan: but i thought that
21:24:55 <ehird> collisions like the lhc does happen in our atmosphere
21:25:08 <ehird> AnMaster: that wasn't a joke.
21:25:16 <ehird> slereah: rite then
21:25:20 <slereah> And even bigger reactions, too.
21:25:22 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:25:27 <ehird> AnMaster: what part of that was a joke
21:25:29 <oerjan> ehird: yeah there's that. but there's a technical doubt about the speed of the resulting particles
21:25:34 <slereah> IIRC, there was one around 10^20 eV!
21:25:42 <ehird> AnMaster: you have flash installed?!
21:25:48 <slereah> Which is... well, almost ten joules
21:25:50 <ehird> i don't believe it
21:25:55 <oerjan> because with cosmic rays the result always has a high speed, so might always escape earth's gravity
21:25:57 <slereah> Not enough to heat a cup of coffee, but still
21:25:59 <AnMaster> ehird, not on this computer, I did a remote connection to another computer that have it
21:26:03 <ais523> flash is the biggest portable security hole in existence
21:26:11 <oerjan> (for the energies needed for a black hole)
21:26:16 <ais523> hmm... portable holes,,,,,,,,,useful things............
21:26:17 <slereah> oerjan : The velocity might be towards earth
21:26:19 <AnMaster> ehird, and ran ssh + x-forwarding + 32-bit forefox
21:26:19 <ehird> ais523: blame macromedia
21:26:24 <AnMaster> ehird, is that complex enough for you
21:26:27 <ehird> they made it when the web was pure and virgin
21:26:38 <ehird> AnMaster: no but its laggy enough
21:26:54 <oerjan> slereah: but a microblack hole will interact only weakly so will go straight through the earth. it takes time to start growing.
21:27:02 <AnMaster> ehird, because I thought they were real webcams in the link first, if I had known they were jokes then I would have skipped it
21:27:08 <ehird> oerjan: someone calculated it
21:27:12 <ehird> oerjan: at the original turn on date
21:27:13 <ais523> I was laughing out loud continuously for about 10 seconds then
21:27:19 <ais523> when I heard about AnMaster's flash setup
21:27:25 <ehird> to explode everything
21:27:34 <ais523> luckily the lab is empty apart from me
21:27:36 <ehird> stupid delays, ruining stuff like that
21:27:47 <AnMaster> <ehird> ais523: blame macromedia <- adobe these days
21:27:50 <slereah> oerjan : Then we can send it
21:28:00 <ehird> AnMaster: yes but macromedia are probably responsible for it
21:28:05 <ehird> due to it being an old codebase
21:28:10 <AnMaster> <ais523> hmm... portable holes,,,,,,,,,useful things............ <-- since when are you Mike Riley?
21:28:10 <slereah> "Sending the threat to earth in space"
21:28:11 <ehird> and security stuff like that not being a huge worry back then
21:28:13 <ais523> hmm... I'm not sure whether to blame macromedia for inventing the format, or adobe for not fixing the bugs
21:28:25 <ais523> AnMaster: I decided to impersonate Mike Riley for a bit just for fun
21:28:33 <ais523> after the initial row of dots it was an obvious thing to do
21:28:39 <AnMaster> ais523, made no sense in that context?
21:28:50 <ais523> well the first 3 dots were natural
21:28:55 <ais523> then I just decided to keep on going
21:29:43 <AnMaster> ais523, also my flash setup is in fact more complex than that I fear
21:30:04 <AnMaster> ais523, since the linux with the flash runs under xen on that other computer
21:30:17 <ais523> Deewiant: by the way, my insane University project resembles Haskell a bit, Haskell uses types that can be correctly checked at compile time to enforce purity and monads and stuff, my project uses types to avoid race conditions and short circuits
21:30:57 <ais523> AnMaster: basically by having a type qualifier for every variable in the source code
21:31:10 <ais523> and saying that you can't call a function if the function and argument share identifiers
21:31:19 <ais523> if you have a global int foo
21:31:22 <ais523> that's used by function f
21:31:30 <ais523> then f(foo) types badly in the intermediate language
21:31:43 <ais523> but what I'm doing is a compiler to compile the source into a language that types well
21:31:52 <slereah> I didn't do esoshit in forever
21:32:01 <slereah> Maybe I should whip up that mu language
21:32:10 <ais523> which in this case would involve duplicating foo, or at least using two ways to get at it
21:32:20 <AnMaster> ais523, so a variable can't be used in a parameter list if it is also used as the global in the function body?
21:32:31 <ais523> AnMaster: not in the intermediate language, no
21:32:37 <AnMaster> ais523, if you have single assignment and no global variables, then the issue is solved :)
21:32:41 <ais523> however, more interestingly, functions are also identifiers
21:32:51 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:32:53 <ais523> and single assignment to functions is ridiculous
21:32:55 <ehird> YOUR STORRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEE
21:32:58 <ehird> VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY MAGICAL
21:33:03 <ais523> so f(g(x)) isn't allowed if f calls g
21:33:23 <ais523> my project supervisor forbids non-tail recursion
21:33:33 <ais523> recursion is kind-of tricky to synthesize into hardware
21:33:34 <AnMaster> ais523, err you can do tail that way
21:33:38 <ais523> without having a stack
21:33:46 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, in the original program
21:33:52 <ais523> this is a restriction on the intermediate language
21:33:57 <ais523> not on the original program
21:34:12 <ais523> I have to compile user-provided programs into programs that respect these conditions
21:34:29 <AnMaster> tail recursion between two functions
21:34:31 <ais523> so yes, you can do it in your head for a simple program
21:35:05 <ais523> yes, that's why I'm doing it as a year-long project for University...
21:35:15 <AnMaster> ais523, I guess you could transform non-tail recursion to some continuation passing style?
21:35:31 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the source language?
21:35:48 <ehird> AnMaster: ais523, this sounds very hard
21:35:48 <ais523> a custom one, which is basically just ALGOL with different syntax
21:35:48 <ehird> [21:35] ais523: yes, that's why I'm doing it as a year-long project for University...
21:36:09 <AnMaster> ais523, it is not even functional?
21:36:10 <ehird> Why 'eww' at algol.
21:36:16 <ehird> NOT EVEN FUNCTIONAL!
21:36:21 <ehird> Wait, you like C and Bash.
21:36:25 <AnMaster> ais523, that will be hard to translate
21:36:27 <ais523> AnMaster: it's confusing
21:36:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I wasn't responding to you
21:36:36 <ais523> it's imperative but translated into functional internally
21:36:44 <ehird> AnMaster: No, but you can't stop me commenting.
21:36:47 <ais523> except it doesn't have first-class functions, or at least it does sometimes, but not other times
21:36:49 <AnMaster> ehird, so.. don't try to interpret my response as an answer
21:37:04 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:04 <AnMaster> ehird, just read the line I said next
21:37:07 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:16 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, it is not even functional?
21:37:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> Wait, you like C and Bash.
21:37:18 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, that will be hard to translate
21:37:21 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:22 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:22 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:23 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:24 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:25 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:27 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:57 <ehird> You're the one with the burden of proof.
21:38:09 <ais523> next problem: trying to persuade engineers that this is difficult
21:38:11 <ehird> And considering I, being the one who made the statements, know what I intended...
21:38:27 <ais523> this is a genuine University project
21:38:29 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you mean? Your project is difficult yes
21:38:32 <ais523> that's half my mark for the year
21:38:44 <ais523> basically it's a programmer (me) helping a computer scientist implement what he's written in his papers
21:39:04 <ais523> software -> hardware compilation is great, anywya
21:39:15 <AnMaster> ais523, I suggest using llvm for that
21:39:23 <ais523> AnMaster: no, you don't get the point
21:39:27 <ais523> that's a bytecode interpreter
21:39:36 <AnMaster> ais523, it is a compiler to machine code
21:39:47 <ais523> hmm... even so, this doesn't use machine code
21:39:53 <ais523> it's much more like VHDL
21:40:02 <ais523> in fact I think they use Verilog as one of the intermediate languages
21:40:05 <ais523> well, the input is imperative
21:40:08 <ais523> but the output is VHDLy
21:40:18 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway llvm allows generating native code, or jit byte code
21:40:32 <AnMaster> you can use it as a great native compiler
21:40:43 <ais523> well, that's not really the point here
21:40:50 <ais523> llvm's still imperative -> imperative at the heart of it
21:41:03 <ais523> not imperative -> functional -> VHDLy
21:41:12 <ais523> I'm not even sure what the name for the VHDL paradigm is...
21:42:23 <AnMaster> ais523, I was just trying to clarify what LLVM was since you said "<ais523> that's a bytecode interpreter"
21:42:23 <ais523> hmm... "cross-paradigm compilation" sounds like it would make a good buzzword
21:42:51 <AnMaster> ais523, also from llvm byte code you can generate native code for several different plaforms
21:43:10 <ais523> still irrelevant, though...
21:43:32 <AnMaster> I heard it is even possible to generate the byte code so that the same byte code can be used to generate binaries for all the supported platforms. Though this isn't supported for the C frontends for obvious reasons
21:43:51 <AnMaster> (there are two, gcc-llvm, and the new clang)
21:44:09 <AnMaster> (clang is still in development, but works well, can compile cfunge, except it chokes on a system header)
21:44:16 <ais523> this channel seems to have developed into each person in a thread of their own
21:44:22 <ais523> kind of makes conversation difficult...
21:44:29 <AnMaster> ais523, could be because I'm currently ignoring tusho
21:44:45 <oerjan> tusho hasn't spoken in a while
21:44:45 <ais523> well tusho hasn't said anything since a few seconds after you ignored em
21:44:49 <AnMaster> ais523, since he couldn't behave wel
21:44:55 <ais523> either that or I ignored him to absent-mindedly
21:45:13 <ehird> tusho hasn't said anything for hours
21:45:17 <ehird> because tusho hasn't been online for hours
21:45:23 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't think that is a coincidence
21:45:31 <ehird> AnMaster: i can assure you that it is
21:45:36 <ehird> except, no, wait, I can't
21:45:38 <ais523> <ehird> AnMaster: i can assure you that it is
21:45:38 <AnMaster> ais523, and ehird didn't speak either?
21:45:40 <ehird> because you can't hear me
21:45:42 <ais523> <ehird> AnMaster: i can assure you that it is
21:45:46 <ais523> <ehird> because you can't hear me
21:45:52 <ehird> ais523: you missed
21:46:03 <ais523> ehird: I know I missed some lines, they weren't interesting
21:46:09 <ais523> and ehird was silent for ages
21:46:11 <ehird> ais523: tell AnMaster that i didn't spam it
21:46:13 <ehird> i only said it once
21:46:15 <ehird> you just pasted it twice
21:46:17 <ais523> after the spam and before we mentioned it
21:46:28 <ais523> ehird: you said it 7 times
21:46:34 <ais523> your referent of 'it' is probably wrong
21:46:38 <ais523> AnMaster is referring to your spam earlier
21:46:40 <ehird> ehird: AnMaster: i can assure you that it is
21:46:47 <ais523> <ehird> I was making two seperate comments. happened 7 times
21:46:50 <ehird> ais523: <ehird> AnMaster: i can assure you that it is
21:46:52 <ehird> ais523: <ehird> AnMaster: i can assure you that it is
21:46:56 <ehird> but he is not referring to that
21:47:01 <ehird> he is referring to your pasting the line just above twice
21:47:06 <ehird> and thinking that is because i said it twice.
21:47:11 <oerjan> THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT
21:47:18 <ais523> oh dear, this reminds me of those arguments by proxy people have sometimes
21:47:24 <ais523> I end up as the proxy far too often...
21:47:32 <ehird> ais523: AnMaster is accusing me of being a spammer because of one of your actions.
21:47:48 <ehird> Since I cannot correct him personally, I am telling you to do so, because being the one who caused him to accuse me of that, you seem like the best option.
21:47:58 * oerjan prepares to swat ais523 if he does more proxying ---##
21:48:13 <ais523> ehird: oerjan prepared to swat me if I did more proxying
21:48:33 <oerjan> JIIIHAAAD!!! ---## ---## ---##
21:48:33 <ehird> ^echo AnMaster: I said that ONCE. I did not spam it. ais523 just pasted it twice, for no reason. Do not accuse me of spamming. ~ehird
21:48:34 <fungot> AnMaster: I said that ONCE. I did not spam it. ais523 just pasted it twice, for no reason. Do not accuse me of spamming. ~ehird AnMaster: I said that ONCE. I did not spam it. ais523 just pasted it twice, for ...
21:49:02 <ais523> oerjan: is ---## a swatter
21:49:08 <ais523> or a wall with a corridor next to it?
21:49:13 <AnMaster> that was twice in that fungot command
21:49:14 <fungot> AnMaster: what's with all the bot abuse from your first solution, as long as needed
21:49:27 <ehird> ^echo I am using fungot's ^echo command.
21:49:27 <fungot> I am using fungot's ^echo command. I am using fungot's ^echo command.
21:49:33 <fungot> AnMaster: there exist an bijective map between the symbols used in other module systems, as a complete window manager written in scsh using 10 000 already
21:49:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: You know, fungot ^echo does everything twice.
21:49:42 <fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api
21:49:52 <ehird> ^echo fizzie: No, clearly it's my fault. ~ehird
21:49:52 <fungot> fizzie: No, clearly it's my fault. ~ehird fizzie: No, clearly it's my fault. ~ehird
21:50:01 <ais523> and is it any good for window manager writing?
21:50:08 <ais523> <fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api
21:50:09 <fungot> ais523: so many people over 10000: 1.2 seconds for both functional linear-update binary shuffle; 33 seconds for linear-update insertion shuffle; 80 seconds for functional insertion shuffle" at http://www.common-lisp.net/ paste/ results/ fnord
21:50:13 <ais523> is the best fungot line ever
21:50:13 <fungot> ais523: yeah like kernels...). inside that expression you have a question
21:50:27 <ais523> AnMaster: fungot seemed to think so
21:50:27 <fungot> ais523: just planning for the construction of a new macro
21:50:42 <ais523> and I don't care if that fungot line is verbatim from someone else, it's still great
21:50:42 <fungot> ais523: then a postgresql bug blotched the db up pretty badly.
21:51:18 <ais523> AnMaster: <fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api
21:51:36 <ais523> I wonder if that is verbatim
21:51:50 <AnMaster> ais523, also that said windows api
21:51:56 <ais523> it sounds just like what happens if you fuzz-test the Windows API
21:52:07 <fizzie> #scheme: [2006-09-23 07:52:58] < psykotic> three korean dudes are repelling off the skyscrape out of my window, washing the windows
21:52:15 <fizzie> It added the word "API" itself there.
21:52:21 <ais523> (the program you fuzz-test crashes badly because the calling inventions involve passing pointers around)
21:52:30 <ais523> s/inventions/conventions/
21:52:37 <ehird> http://www.thingspalincanname.com/
21:52:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, and the demons flying out?
21:52:53 <ais523> fizzie: ah, I know what happened, it started with the famous "it makes demons fly out of my nose" quote
21:53:01 <fizzie> And I'm pretty sure the demons part is one of the (common in comp.lang.c) reference to "demons flying out of one's nose" re undefined behaviour.
21:53:07 <ais523> but Markoved it into the windows API thing
21:53:18 <ais523> fizzie: yes, definitely
21:53:28 <ais523> and "windows API" is a common continuation of "windows"
21:53:36 <fizzie> Yes, "out of my" can be continued with "window" thanks to that psykotic quote, and I'm sure "the windows api" is somewhere.
21:53:49 <oerjan> fungot never misses the markov.
21:53:49 <fungot> oerjan: quite likely. there is, that's it?
21:54:07 <ais523> oerjan: oh dear, trying to fill your 97% pun quota up?
21:54:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, you were trying to make a pun?
21:54:46 <AnMaster> thought it was just semi-random comment
21:54:51 <ais523> the sentence doesn't make sense any other way
21:54:54 <fizzie> I should have a "^explain" command so that it could give an explanation like that, but it'd again bloat the language model.
21:54:54 <ais523> but it's obvious as a pun
21:55:39 <ais523> AnMaster: "never misses the mark" is an English idiom
21:56:05 <AnMaster> ais523, quite fun actually then
21:56:07 <fizzie> Bloating the code is just a good thing, makes it a more impressive Funge-98 program.
21:56:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, keep that up, but please use (pun "text here")
21:56:43 <fizzie> Should finish (or at least start) that HTTP client at the very least.
21:57:20 <oerjan> ais523: well who knows i _could_ be using a markov generator myself
21:57:33 <ais523> markov generators rarely make puns
21:57:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm efunge will have the planned NSCK/SCK4/SCK6/SCKU instead of SOCK and SCKE
21:57:53 <ais523> it's probably a chance in $BIGNUM that fungot would come up with an insightful metaphor like that
21:57:53 <fungot> ais523: i just dreaming of two broccoli fnord lying in an ovular, porcelain pool
21:57:55 <AnMaster> would a pun generator be possible?
21:57:59 <ais523> and yet it did, at random
21:58:02 <ais523> AnMaster: it would probably be awful
21:58:07 <ais523> but that doesn't really matter with puns
21:58:17 <ehird> fungot: ais523: i just dreaming of two broccoli fnord lying in an ovular, porcelain pool
21:58:18 <fungot> ehird: and how does cgi help you with optimizing bindings in your own world of conventions.
21:58:30 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it would be near impossible
21:58:47 <AnMaster> but short of that I don't think so
21:58:49 <ehird> ^echo AnMaster: http://grok-code.com/12/how-to-write-original-jokes-or-have-a-computer-do-it-for-you/
21:58:49 <fungot> AnMaster: http://grok-code.com/12/how-to-write-original-jokes-or-have-a-computer-do-it-for-you/ AnMaster: http://grok-code.com/12/how-to-write-original-jokes-or-have-a-computer-do-it-for-you/
21:59:13 <AnMaster> humor needs intelligence to be good
21:59:15 <ais523> well, those are jokes not puns
21:59:23 <AnMaster> I suppose you could do like standard patterns
21:59:36 <oerjan> fizzie: does fungot use fnord when it cannot find another way to continue?
21:59:37 <fungot> oerjan: cons as you traverse the tree fnord and needs to be clever
21:59:40 <ehird> fizzie: plz source <fungot> ais523: i just dreaming of two broccoli fnord lying in an ovular, porcelain pool
21:59:41 <fungot> ehird: depends on what you mean
21:59:41 <fungot> ehird: i think that's the best one
21:59:49 <ehird> the last line was from me sending that to people
22:00:07 <ais523> I googled for "pun generator" and one of the results made knock knock jokes based on Shakespeare
22:00:16 <ais523> but needed human interaction to work correctly
22:00:29 <fizzie> oerjan: No, when I tokenized my logs I mapped all tokens with a frequency of one to "UNK" (as in unknown), and when converting the generated token-stream back to text I map that to "fnord" explicitly.
22:00:45 <AnMaster> ehird: that joke generator is restricted to the "what do you get if you cross x with y" it seems
22:00:57 <ehird> ^echo AnMaster: Yes, but that's not the piont.
22:00:57 <fungot> AnMaster: Yes, but that's not the piont. AnMaster: Yes, but that's not the piont.
22:01:13 <oerjan> fizzie: ok so almost but not quite what i said, in effect
22:01:22 <AnMaster> this is just generating based on a template really
22:01:41 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes. Quite often it just 'fnord'izes uncommon words in a otherwise-quoted-verbatim sentence, though.
22:01:49 <ehird> ^echo AnMaster: No, it's not. It's more complex than that. Read the code.
22:01:50 <fungot> AnMaster: No, it's not. It's more complex than that. Read the code. AnMaster: No, it's not. It's more complex than that. Read the code.
22:01:58 <ais523> hmm... it seems that ignoring ehird just makes him say everything three times, via bot
22:02:00 <oerjan> so if we start saying UNK a lot that will increase the fnords? :D
22:02:08 <fizzie> ehird: Source: #scheme [2004-06-04 01:50:25] < boobot> I just DREAMING of two BROCCOLI FLORETS lying in an OVULAR, porcelain pool -- Should I do not recognize the name.
22:02:11 <AnMaster> yes of course, it uses a vocabulary and so on
22:02:21 <ehird> fizzie: boobot is a bot
22:02:25 <ais523> fizzie: you mean that was generated by a bot in the first place?
22:02:30 <ehird> fizzie: SO, it is verbatim, but from another random-generating bot
22:02:39 <ehird> or maybe 'zem' is more appropriate
22:02:42 <ehird> ^echo AnMaster no not markov
22:02:42 <fungot> AnMaster no not markov AnMaster no not markov
22:02:49 * ais523 wonders if it would be possible to set up a markov chain of markovbots somehow
22:03:04 <AnMaster> I suspect I have to ignore fungot too, since ehird doesn't respect ignore
22:03:05 <fungot> AnMaster: ( user ' ( open posix-files))
22:03:13 <ais523> hmm.... get a whole lot of markovbots written in different languages
22:03:18 <ehird> ^echo AnMaster: Have fun with that. I'll just put another bot in here.
22:03:18 <fungot> AnMaster: Have fun with that. I'll just put another bot in here. AnMaster: Have fun with that. I'll just put another bot in here.
22:03:22 <ais523> then markovchain their sources together
22:03:33 <ais523> then write an esolang capable of running the resulting program
22:03:48 <ehird> ^echo AnMaster: It's a good thing I don't give a damn.
22:03:48 <fungot> AnMaster: It's a good thing I don't give a damn. AnMaster: It's a good thing I don't give a damn.
22:04:02 <ais523> and bad style is the least of your worries if you chain together programs written in lots of different languages
22:04:04 <AnMaster> if you don't give a damn then why do you give a damn about using a bot at all
22:04:11 <ehird> ais523: he is talking about me
22:04:13 <ais523> anyway, fizzie, can you try to persuade ehird not to spam?
22:04:20 <ehird> putting a bot in here to annoy AnMaster
22:04:22 <fungot> AnMaster: to actually demonstrate the changing history part ( it's likely that your max already allows 3 ( and more)
22:04:33 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird_.
22:04:33 <fizzie> ais523: Sorry, my mind control skills are very bad.
22:04:44 <fizzie> fungot: And you! Should you really be obeying just anyone?
22:04:45 <ais523> fizzie: what about your ChanServ-control skills?
22:04:57 <ehird_> Hmm? what's that? An IP block?
22:04:58 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
22:05:16 <ehird> Well this is easily solvable.
22:05:22 -!- ehird_ has joined.
22:05:26 <fizzie> ehird: For example, by leaving him alone?
22:05:56 * ehird_ suspects AnMaster may have a block on my ident
22:05:57 -!- ehird_ has quit (Client Quit).
22:06:26 -!- unrelatedguy has joined.
22:07:10 <AnMaster> ais523, why is ehird joining his various different clients and then just parting? Seems strange
22:07:19 <AnMaster> I guess he have connection issues or something
22:07:32 <ehird> AnMaster: you're bullshitting, I know you can see the text because it's a different IP, hostname and nick.
22:07:40 <ehird> You will have had to manually /ignore it, and of course then know why I'm doing it.
22:08:03 <ais523> ehird: well maybe he has your IP blocked from months ago
22:08:07 <ais523> I don't quite recognise it on sight yet
22:08:13 -!- unrelatedguy has changed nick to Hi_AnMaster.
22:08:19 <ais523> but I certainly know there are IPs with a distinctly ehirdy look to them
22:08:26 <ais523> also, /ignore evasion is taking it too far, really
22:08:34 <ais523> people deserve to be kicked for that sort of thing
22:09:00 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
22:09:02 <AnMaster> ais523, my client is smart enough to add new patterns if parts change
22:09:15 <AnMaster> like ip change, but not nick and such then it adds the ip
22:09:31 <ais523> also, I can easily imagine a nick-tracking bot that just ignores both sides of a nick change
22:09:33 -!- Hi_AnMaster has changed nick to So_AnMaster_how_.
22:09:38 -!- So_AnMaster_how_ has changed nick to are_things_QUEST.
22:10:01 -!- are_things_QUEST has changed nick to IONMARK.
22:10:02 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes I ignore nick changes, why?
22:10:16 <fizzie> I have a sinking feeling kickbannery would just leave to ban evasionery, but nickflooding is so annoying I guess we'll soon have to actually try it.
22:10:16 <ais523> AnMaster: because ehird was trying to get around your ignorance
22:10:22 <ais523> well, your /ignore ance
22:10:26 -!- danopia__ has changed nick to danopia.
22:10:29 <ais523> and your client defeated them
22:10:33 <ehird> There, that should have done it.
22:10:39 <ehird> I bet he doesn't ignore CTCPs.
22:12:00 <AnMaster> hm interesting, the script just told me it added a ctcp block too, wonder what on earth caused that
22:12:16 <ehird> AnMaster is actually reading all this, he's just reading off that for effect to try and annoy me.
22:12:29 <IONMARK> I know you're reading this.
22:12:55 <ais523> ehird: if so he's taking your trolling very well
22:12:58 <AnMaster> over 760 pages though, so won't read it all in one night
22:13:00 <ais523> normally you're well-behaved
22:13:04 <ais523> what's got into you today
22:13:08 <ehird> ais523: No, he's just counter-trolling me.
22:13:17 <ais523> well in that case YHL.
22:13:17 <ehird> Also, this amuses me and I am bored.
22:13:29 <oerjan> "I hit him because he hit me afterwards!"
22:13:29 <ehird> Actually I haven't, I'm just figuring out cunning ways to annoy him further.
22:13:49 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando").
22:14:01 <ais523> oerjan: have you ever heard anyone actually using that argument?
22:14:31 <oerjan> it's just an old joke i guess
22:14:35 <ais523> I can so imagine that in a kid's playground...
22:14:53 <oerjan> well that's the setting of the joke i guess
22:16:41 -!- IONMARK has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Hi AnMaster.
22:16:56 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | can be.
22:17:16 -!- IONMARK has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | How are you today AnMaster? -ehird.
22:17:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | popping a value of an empty should return 0.
22:17:41 <fizzie> optbot's a "can be" person, as opposed to a "can do" guy.
22:17:42 <optbot> fizzie: is there a current-request object or something?
22:17:55 <ais523> well, I'm resetting the topic mostly for the fun of seeing ehird in an edit war with his own bot
22:18:12 <ehird> I just /invite'd AnMaster to #hi_anmaster.
22:18:32 <ais523> ehird: this is the sort of thing that almost makes me want to call Freenode in on you
22:18:34 <fizzie> fungot: Did you die, by the way?
22:18:37 <ais523> you're going far too far, stop it
22:18:50 <ehird> ais523: Is there a policy I'm breaking? I don't know of any specific, non-vague one that I am violating.
22:18:54 <AnMaster> ais523, yes now the topic display at the top does change but since that is too short to show more than half the link anyway that isn't an issue, but it isn't announced in channel
22:19:20 <oerjan> ais523: well i was getting annoyed but on the other hand when he took a break it got awfully quiet here for a couple minutes
22:19:23 <ais523> ehird: "don't troll" is surely a policy
22:19:36 <ais523> well that's because the old, interesting conversation got derailed
22:19:38 <ehird> ais523: People have trolled me before via /msg, I reported to freenode, they say "/ignore them, we can't do anything"
22:19:49 <ehird> So no: They do not punish people who troll. :-)
22:20:43 <fizzie> Still, there _is_ a policy: "Off-Topic Use -- various forms of antisocial behavior -- Off-topic activity may result in users being barred from the network."
22:20:52 <fizzie> It's more of a "won't do" than "can't do" situation there.
22:23:03 -!- danopia has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:23:26 -!- danopia has joined.
22:23:51 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:24:21 <fizzie> Heh, after I asked fungot "And you! Should you really be obeying just anyone?" it went to a some sort of loop where it was using 100 % of the CPU time of that box.
22:24:35 <fizzie> Obviously moral/ethical questions are too much for it's brain.
22:25:19 -!- fungot has joined.
22:25:36 <fizzie> I'll ask it again just to be sure, but it probably didn't have anything to do with the input.
22:25:43 <fizzie> fungot: And you! Should you really be obeying just anyone?
22:25:43 <fungot> fizzie: before the pre-scheme compiler
22:26:06 <fizzie> fungot: What, after you get a Scheme compiler you'll suddenly start to behave correctly?
22:26:06 <fungot> fizzie: and yeah, imag-part has an exactness bug. fixing as we speak
22:26:28 <fizzie> fungot: So you're actually _writing_ that compiler now? Sometimes you scare me.
22:26:29 <fungot> fizzie: the approach used by gambit is described here:
22:26:58 -!- IONMARK has quit ("Lost terminal").
22:27:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, you want to debug that
22:28:01 <fizzie> Does your interpreter happen to have some sort of "drops into the debugger when receives a signal" mode or something?
22:28:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, don't you keep a backtrace?
22:28:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, err I don't have a full debugger, I just use some gdb macros. So yeah, you attach gdb to it :P
22:28:41 <AnMaster> then you do set variable SettingTraceLevel 9
22:29:01 <AnMaster> you can tab complete it from Setting
22:29:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, so standard gdb attach :)
22:29:20 <AnMaster> and then continue after setting trace on
22:29:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, not the answer you wanted?
22:29:46 <fizzie> Well, it's RC/Funge-98 still, haven't bothered to add the "chroot after starting so I don't need to a real chroot jail" to yours.
22:30:02 <ehird> I'd stick with RC/Funge. :-P
22:30:10 <ehird> I wonder if RC/Funge2 is usable yet?
22:30:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, a chroot for cfunge could be small :)
22:31:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, also adding that before file loading would be easy enough
22:32:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, see also etc/example.gdbinit in cfunge source
22:32:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, you need a -g -O0 compile
22:32:58 <fizzie> I think I'm just too lazy to do that when there aren't too many benefits in using another implementation. Although I guess a faster Funge implementation would mean a faster brainfuck interpreter in there.
22:33:11 <ais523> AnMaster: -g -O0? Why?
22:33:11 <ehird> fizzie: the brainfuck is pretty fast as it is
22:33:19 <AnMaster> ais523, or debug symbols won't work properly
22:33:26 <AnMaster> ais523, I get "symbol optimised out"
22:33:26 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13
22:33:29 <ais523> they'll work well enough, normally
22:33:39 <AnMaster> break ExecuteInstruction if (opcode == $arg0)
22:33:41 <fizzie> I think there were some other commands I forgot to ^save.
22:33:44 <ais523> with a bit of lateral thinking you can figure out what it was optimised out too
22:33:48 <AnMaster> ais523, opcode is optimised out at -O1
22:33:57 <AnMaster> so that means that just breaks
22:34:06 <AnMaster> ais523, also the code is quite ok at -O0
22:34:14 <ais523> AnMaster: you can often get at it indirectly
22:34:23 <AnMaster> around 2 seconds for mycology here
22:34:39 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but it's massively large
22:34:45 <ais523> and a real pain to read
22:34:50 <ais523> if you're into reading asm, like I am
22:34:56 <ais523> yes, I'm talking about the binary
22:35:18 <AnMaster> actually 170 is stripped version of that
22:35:22 <ais523> it just breaks my heart to see gcc moving data from one variable to another, then moving it back again for no reason
22:35:32 <ais523> and storing stuff on the stack when it doesn't need to
22:35:33 <AnMaster> ais523, well I don't read the asm most of the time
22:35:40 <ais523> it's a sad way for a compilre to make a living...
22:36:03 <ehird> AnMaster: I work on higher level
22:36:12 <ehird> and then drop back down again with microoptimizations
22:36:31 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't read asm because CISC asm is bloody hard to read
22:36:44 <AnMaster> but x86 asm is just a pain to read
22:36:59 <ais523> AnMaster: ABI is still harder to read
22:37:18 <ais523> I mean, what sort of asm can't copy from one variable to another without a temporary?
22:37:19 <AnMaster> I I read the ABI *specs* for x86_64
22:37:28 <ais523> AnMaster: I mean ABI the asm used by gcc-bf
22:37:34 <ais523> I deliberately chose a confusing acronym
22:37:37 <ais523> but it tends to confuse people
22:38:15 <AnMaster> ais523, well I'd say confusing people is a function of confusing acronym
22:38:39 <AnMaster> <ais523> I mean, what sort of asm can't copy from one variable to another without a temporary? <-- the temporary is a variable too
22:38:53 <ais523> but it can't be copied to or from
22:39:02 <AnMaster> ais523, that way you end up with infinite number of temporaries
22:39:06 <ais523> in ABI, when I say "move", I mean "move"
22:39:10 <ais523> you can move data without a temporary
22:39:21 <ais523> so it isn't in its original location
22:39:28 <ais523> there are lots of non-copy ways to set a value
22:39:36 <ais523> for instance, there's double transfer addition
22:39:50 <ais523> which is effectively a+=c; b+=c; c=0;
22:39:59 <ais523> you can make a copy that uses a temporary out of that
22:40:05 <ais523> and a zero-cell instruction
22:40:38 <ais523> transfer addition, double transfer addition, and transfer subtraction are the basis of the whole language
22:40:59 <ais523> there's also transfer addition with carry, which is different from any other add-with-carry you've ever seen
22:41:47 <ais523> well, the carry isn't stored anywhere
22:42:00 <ais523> and the bytes can be taddc'd in any order
22:42:07 <ais523> the carry is applied directly to the result
22:42:25 <ais523> which means that a taddc needs an extra argument saying how many bytes it is from the top of the result
22:44:09 <AnMaster> ais523, also cfunge tends to prefer memcpy() instead of copying each entry of a struct, even though it may copy padding.. I guess that will be worse for gcc-bf?
22:44:28 <ais523> transfer add with carry
22:44:34 <ais523> asm instructions always have names like that
22:44:38 <ais523> and why would I break the tradition?
22:45:19 <AnMaster> ais523, however while the memcpy isn't either slower or faster on normal systems for cfunge (I profiled) it is easier and simpler to use memcpy
22:45:29 <AnMaster> and do deep copy on whatever is left
22:45:40 <ais523> AnMaster: it's not a problem either way, actually
22:45:48 <ais523> gcc-bf will optimise memcpy to some extent
22:45:54 <ais523> just as soon as I finish deoptimising newlib
22:46:01 <ais523> stupid optimisations making the wrong assumptions
22:46:15 <ais523> like copying an int is faster than copying a char
22:46:43 <AnMaster> ais523, well it is reasonable since int should be word size iirc? However I may be wrong
22:46:51 <ais523> AnMaster: int can't be 8 bits in C
22:46:56 <ais523> and the word size in gcc-bf is 8
22:47:00 <ais523> I set int to 32 anyway
22:47:04 <ais523> because everyone assumes it's 32
22:47:07 <AnMaster> after all x86 defines word to some small value for compatibility
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22:50:41 <Slereah_> http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/6/6d/Hmmm.jpg
22:56:42 * oerjan thinks encyclopedia dramatica should protect its main page better
22:57:32 <ais523> is its main page protected?
22:58:21 <oerjan> i shouldn't imagine so, since it contained a porn spam popup when i visited
23:00:11 <ehird> oerjan: That was probably... an ad.
23:00:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:00:25 <ehird> Yes, that is an ad.
23:00:27 <ehird> I have seen them elsewhere.
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23:23:56 <KingOfKarlsruhe> (define (bye . args)(for-each display args))(bye "gn8" " " "esoteric" " " channel")
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23:39:14 <oerjan> Gnashing gnats gnaw gnarled gnostic gnome's gnus.
23:40:57 <ehird> oerjan: most of those are software products
23:41:03 <ehird> gnash (flash viewer)
23:41:05 <ehird> gnats (ada compiler)
23:41:18 <ehird> gnus (news reader for emacs)
23:49:02 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | no i don't.
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05:49:02 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | we can have nil = \x y -> y.
05:59:02 <CO2Games> who here might be willing to write me a simple test program that utilizes all of the commands in this instruction set I made?
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11:49:02 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but we originally (mists of time) come from Scotland.
11:51:06 <AnMaster> hm that topic makes sense in the context of the first section
11:51:20 <AnMaster> "the backlog, but we came from scotland", is that true?
11:54:02 <fizzie> Yes; the "mists of time" remark makes it sound like "but even before the backlog, though it says 'entire', there was the time when we came from Scotland".
11:54:53 <fizzie> fungot: Why don't you ever say anything clever like that?
11:54:53 <fungot> fizzie: at least, it mostly works, but it
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12:09:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, how often do you update the language db for fungot with new logs?
12:09:49 <fungot> AnMaster: yeah the first one
12:10:05 <fungot> AnMaster: i understand f has an alternative syntax
12:10:20 <fungot> AnMaster: are we allowed to submit an interpreter in basic and don't release the source
12:11:01 <AnMaster> fungot, Interpreter for what? And also it sounds like a truly horrible idea to use BASIC for it anyway....
12:11:01 <fungot> AnMaster: i got the control wrong?
12:11:27 <optbot> AnMaster: amb(1,2,3) returns 1 2 or 3
12:11:27 <fungot> optbot: yeah drscheme from debian package installed nicely but drscheme wont launch, complains about that?
12:11:29 <fungot> optbot: thats worse than fnord
12:11:30 <optbot> fungot: <3::=3<*3*; *3*3::=3*3*; *3*>::=3>
12:11:31 <optbot> fungot: How about have integer literals repeat? So + adds 1 to top of stack, and +9 adds ten.
12:11:32 <fungot> optbot: works nicely enough in w3m, but i
12:11:32 <optbot> fungot: It is suppose to give me a message that it knows the we are ~exec in somethine
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12:34:31 <ais523> <CO2Games> who here might be willing to write me a simple test program that utilizes all of the commands in this instruction set I made?
12:34:46 <ais523> CO2Games: I'm busy right now, but I might try later depending on how easy it is
12:34:49 <ais523> could you give me a link?
12:42:21 <AnMaster> ais523, wasn't it he that made the bloated brainfuck based lang without support for nested loops?
12:42:53 <ais523> still, BF-based langs are common ways to get into esoprogramming
12:43:12 <ais523> (I changed the semantics of [ and , to make the language reversible, not sure how usable the result is)
12:57:11 <AnMaster> what will memcpy() do on size = 0
12:57:20 <ais523> not sure, it might be undefined
12:57:26 <ais523> if it isn't, almost certainly nothing
12:57:57 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't find any mention in any man page about the behaviour at least
12:58:15 <ehird> no mention = undefined
12:58:17 <ais523> try looking at the C standard?
12:58:21 <ehird> <AnMaster> ais523, wasn't it he that made the bloated brainfuck based lang without support for nested loops?
12:58:24 <ais523> also, yes, no mention = undefined
12:58:25 <ehird> it was interesting, actually
12:58:46 <ais523> and you don't need nested loops for TCness, one loop + if is enough
12:59:10 <ais523> hmm... come to think of it, BF is probably Turing-complete with only two levels of nested []
13:02:11 <AnMaster> ais523, C99 makes no mention of it either
13:02:33 <ais523> no mention = undefined, it's a general rule in that standard
13:02:52 <AnMaster> The memcpy function copies n characters from the object pointed to by s2 into the
13:02:52 <AnMaster> object pointed to by s1. If copying takes place between objects that overlap, the behavior
13:03:11 <AnMaster> ais523, however for n = 0 that should mean "copies 0 bytes"
13:03:22 <AnMaster> so not sure if that counts as "no mention"
13:09:22 <ehird> if you're not sure
13:09:23 <ehird> and it's not mentioned
13:09:48 <ehird> I imagine he still has me on ignore.
13:10:00 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on how you interpret 7.21.2.1.2
13:10:17 <ais523> AnMaster: in which numbering scheme? ISO's or ANSI's?
13:10:19 <ehird> AnMaster: if you're not sure, or you think it's ambiguous, and it's not mentioned, it's undefined.
13:10:59 <AnMaster> ais523, the section number in the pdf + paragraph number. File says "ISO/IEC 9899:TC3"
13:11:10 <ais523> ah, ok, ISO numbering scheme
13:11:28 <ais523> C standardisation is a bit stupid, as ANSI and ISO both put out identical standards except they numbered the sections differently
13:11:36 <ais523> which makes it very hard to cite part of the standard correctly...
13:12:22 <AnMaster> ais523, this was the most uptodate version of the standard I could get hold of. I think it has some spelling corrections and similiar. Considering it is dated 2007 Sep 7.
13:12:51 <ais523> interestingly, the ones you get hold of are newer than the official published versions
13:13:02 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? I think I found it using google
13:13:10 <ais523> due to some crazy ISO copyright stuff, the official standards cost money and aren't legally online anywhere
13:13:11 <AnMaster> it was a pain to find what seemed to be the right version
13:13:14 <ais523> but all the drafts are published
13:13:22 <ais523> thus you most likely found the newest drafy
13:13:33 <AnMaster> ais523, it was from ISO or IEEE or IEC website iirc
13:13:43 <ais523> due to the working group publishing them there
13:13:54 <ais523> 9899:TC3 is the third correction to C99, if I remember correctly
13:14:08 <ais523> which will be incorporated into the next version of C if they ever put one out
13:14:46 <AnMaster> ais523, however as far as I can tell compiler vendors such as GNU and Intel, seem to refer to last such correction version
13:15:06 <AnMaster> pretty sure I saw references to that in both cases
13:15:28 <ehird> i haaaaaaaate IEEE and ISO and all closed standards organizations
13:15:47 <AnMaster> that is the point of a standard
13:16:07 <ehird> you cant even get the fucking ISO date format standard without paying like $100
13:16:19 <ais523> yes, I share in your anger, both of you
13:18:02 <AnMaster> Err is stddef.h C89, C99 or POSIX?
13:18:05 <ehird> actually kinda suck:
13:18:34 <ehird> AnMaster: headers really need manpages...
13:18:39 <ais523> AnMaster: can't remember off the top of my head
13:18:56 <ehird> decied that 'T' was a good separator
13:18:58 <AnMaster> ehird, it got one here, but it doesn't say where it comes from
13:19:09 <ehird> T just makes it impossible to make out the day from the time
13:19:42 <AnMaster> <ehird> 2008-W40-5 <-- Y10K....
13:19:59 <AnMaster> and if you want to avoid months, just use "day of year" or something
13:20:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, ISO 8601 doesn't support more than 4 digits to a year.
13:20:15 <ehird> AnMaster: But the example I pasted: valid iso 8601 date
13:20:16 <AnMaster> though both week and day of year seriously fuck up on leap years
13:20:28 <ehird> I don't give a shit about the Y10K problem.
13:20:43 <ais523> well, it's maybe not a problem when referring to now
13:20:51 <AnMaster> we won't ever need more than 640 KB RAM either
13:20:53 <ehird> Yes, software from the 1970s should be made to work in 2000.
13:20:55 <ais523> but Y10K is certainly a problem when referring to things that will happen in the far future
13:20:59 <ehird> (2038 is a reasonable problem)
13:21:11 <ehird> think about how far Y10K is away
13:21:15 <ehird> and think about in history
13:21:18 <ehird> the progression of technology
13:21:21 <AnMaster> what if your lifespan was 10000 years?
13:21:21 <ais523> very near on geological scales
13:21:25 <ehird> and...y10k is bullshit
13:21:32 <ais523> also, half the date formats I see have a Y1BC problem
13:21:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but it's not.
13:21:48 <ais523> and dates BC are certainly within the scope of things that people might want to refer to
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13:22:07 <ehird> AnMaster: i think that's a new kind of fallacy
13:22:25 <ehird> "You don't think X? Well, what about <completely untrue thing>? Would you think X then?"
13:23:01 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a philosophical construct for exploring your mind or something
13:23:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Deeeeeep.
13:23:11 <ais523> AnMaster: not just that, try writing, say 15 March 4 BC in ISO format
13:23:19 <ais523> there isn't an obvious way to do it
13:23:22 * ehird considers making all his programs test for >= Y10K
13:23:25 <ais523> and yes, 0/1 is messy too
13:23:29 <AnMaster> ais523, Well, the calender changed since then
13:23:35 <ehird> and if so, print "Why the fuck are you using this outdated piece of shit, seriously, it's thousands of years old!"
13:23:36 <ais523> ehird: also test for more than 30 days in September
13:23:40 <ehird> "8 thousand or so years old!"
13:23:50 <ais523> AnMaster: hmm... the one they were using at the time, so Julian, I reckon
13:24:04 <AnMaster> ais523, what about other cultures?
13:24:19 <ais523> and there was a big row at Wikipedia about autoformatting dates, because they claimed that reformatting a date implies a different calendar
13:24:29 <ais523> AnMaster: well the date I used was significant in Roman history if I have my dates right
13:24:44 <ais523> and taking the format in China would make more sense if I had used a Chinese date format to start with
13:24:48 <ais523> but yes, I agree with you
13:25:31 <AnMaster> ais523, + they didn't use leapyears for a long time, so you would have to consider that too
13:25:50 <ais523> back then they definitely used leapyears
13:25:58 <ais523> no corrections for centuries
13:26:12 <ais523> this explains why the extra day was added to February
13:26:18 <ais523> because for ages it was the last month of the year
13:26:32 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure why or when new year moved from March 1 to January 1
13:26:37 <AnMaster> anyway considering when a date more than maybe 100-200 years old actually *was* is just too painful
13:26:52 <ais523> this is why proleptic Gregorian was invented, I think
13:26:55 <AnMaster> ais523, what weekday was it for example?
13:27:06 <ais523> it's the current calendar, but projected backwards through time
13:27:09 <AnMaster> which as far as I understand it, you need for ISO format
13:27:15 <oerjan> ais523: you don't mean 15 March 44 BC?
13:27:21 <ais523> oerjan: yes, that was it
13:27:31 <ais523> I knew there was something wrong with it, just wasn't sure what...
13:27:51 <oerjan> the 15 March itself is enough of a clue there :)
13:27:59 <AnMaster> ais523, it would have been different, iirc the romans moved the point of their new year once in their history at least. No idea when that was
13:28:05 <AnMaster> but I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere
13:28:34 <AnMaster> could have been earlier or later
13:28:37 <ehird> <ais523> I'm not entirely sure why or when new year moved from March 1 to January 1
13:28:53 <AnMaster> ehird, ah thanks, must have missed that line
13:28:55 <ehird> shouldnt the start of the year be the start of a season, really
13:29:00 <AnMaster> and I think I heard the reason
13:29:14 <ehird> year starting in december would make sense
13:29:20 <AnMaster> something about having time to prepare for wars after elections
13:29:34 <AnMaster> ehird, why December? that is the middle of the winter
13:29:49 <AnMaster> far from the start of the season
13:30:12 <ehird> AnMaster: what are the swedish seasons
13:30:20 <ehird> see, i forgot to think
13:30:25 <ehird> that other countries had different seasons :-P
13:30:54 <oerjan> AnMaster: winter solstice
13:31:03 <ais523> well, mostly the northern hemisphere has one set, the southern hemisphere has the opposite, and places near the equator are weird
13:31:03 <AnMaster> ehird, spring (vår), summer (sommar), autumn (höst), winter (vinter)
13:31:08 <ais523> but there are lots of exceptions
13:31:13 <oerjan> it's logical to start on a solstice or equinox
13:31:19 <ehird> AnMaster: same months, then, ok, it's probably my fault
13:31:23 <ais523> [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 119 seconds.
13:31:28 <AnMaster> ehird, well months are mostly the same too
13:31:33 <ehird> what months are in winter this hemisphere...
13:31:37 <ehird> i was thinking it started in december
13:31:40 * ehird is tired, confused, bla
13:31:45 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on how far north you are
13:32:10 <ehird> which, i think, explains why start of a season is a crap year start point
13:32:26 <AnMaster> if you define winter based on mean temperature. Which iirc is the the basis for the official definitions used in Sweden
13:32:49 <AnMaster> something like Spring when mean temperature have been over x degrees for at least y days in a row
13:33:23 <AnMaster> (so even if it get colder just a few days later, it is still spring then)
13:33:28 <ehird> winter here starts in december
13:33:31 <ehird> not december 1 though obviously
13:33:34 <ais523> in the UK they have a whole television series dedicated to trying to determine when Spring starts by watching the behaviour of the wildlife
13:33:50 <ehird> ais523: haha, i haven't heard of that
13:33:56 <AnMaster> ehird, well the temperature for winter usually happens in middle of November or earlier
13:34:08 <ais523> with people sending in evidence from over the country
13:34:14 <ehird> well its october right now, and i'm freezing :-)
13:34:15 <ais523> although mostly it's just an excuse to show cute pictures of baby foxes and such
13:34:46 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_(season)#Definition_of_spring
13:34:58 <ais523> ehird: I'm surprised you missed it, they generally advertise it furiously in the weather programs on the BBC during March
13:35:10 <ehird> ais523: i don't generally watch all that much tv
13:35:18 <AnMaster> wtf, "Summer" have a "popular culture" section
13:35:20 <ais523> I mostly watch it for the theme music
13:35:33 <ehird> ais523: you still haven't named it, i may have heard of it in the back of my mind :-)
13:35:35 <ehird> but forgotten about it
13:35:38 <ais523> AnMaster: everything on Wikipedia has a popular culture section or will have one eventually, it's one of the Rules of the Internet
13:36:01 <ehird> yeah, i knew of it but forgotten
13:36:14 <AnMaster> ais523, it is easy in Sweden, since it is officially defined based on mean temperature
13:36:24 <ehird> ais523: is that the official story though, it's trying to figure out the start of spring?
13:36:28 <oerjan> ais523: i vaguely recall an xkcd on that
13:36:31 <ais523> yes, it is the official story
13:36:33 <AnMaster> "SMHI definierar vår som när dygnsmedeltemperaturen är stigande och över noll grader i minst sju dagar."
13:36:49 <ais523> but as I said it's mostly an excuse to show cute wildlife pictures
13:38:37 <oerjan> "The first month of the year continued to be Ianuarius, as it had been since 153 BC." from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar
13:38:42 <AnMaster> SMHI (Swedish Met office basically) defines spring as: when the mean temperature of the full-24 hour period (don't know English word, in Swedish dag indicates the 12 hours the sun is up, but dygn the full 24 hours) is increasing and is over 0 degrees for at least 7 days in a row
13:39:01 <ais523> oerjan: ok, so it was a pretty old change
13:39:02 <AnMaster> would really like to know the name for 24 hour period in English, I assume there is one
13:39:15 <AnMaster> assuming day is just the 12 "non-night" hours
13:39:27 <AnMaster> if it isn't then what is the name for just that part
13:39:43 <ais523> AnMaster: they're both called "day"
13:39:45 <ais523> which is really confusing
13:39:52 <ais523> occasionally you have to say which you mean
13:40:33 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway is there no such easy definition of spring in UK?
13:40:55 <AnMaster> there are similar ones for the other seasons
13:41:09 <ehird> day is 24 hours to me
13:41:16 <ehird> but "today" means:
13:41:24 <ehird> if it's day, -> this day
13:41:28 <ehird> if it's night, -> following day
13:41:33 <ehird> (where day in that definition means 12 hours)
13:41:42 <ehird> it's only confusing if you think about it.
13:42:02 <AnMaster> ah the summer definition is when it is over 10 degrees for 7 days in a row
13:42:10 <oerjan> http://xkcd.com/446/ was it
13:42:24 <ehird> you poor cold swedes :}
13:42:28 <AnMaster> ehird, in north sweden that is reasonable
13:42:48 <AnMaster> however where I live it is mostly 18-25 or so during the summer holidays
13:42:58 <oerjan> it's recently dipped below 10 C here
13:43:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, did that a few weeks ago here
13:45:16 <ehird> someone write an esolang for composing music (kind of an anti-fuge, i guess)
13:45:24 <ehird> set some base characteristics about music
13:45:32 <ehird> divide it into seperate parts for people
13:45:39 <ehird> and we each write a program
13:45:42 <ehird> and then they're stuck together
13:45:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is the Norwegian equivalent for SHMI btw?
13:45:46 <ehird> and that is #esoteric's anthem
13:45:53 <oerjan> what does SHMI stand for
13:46:03 <AnMaster> "Sveriges meteorologiska och hydrologiska institut"
13:46:20 <oerjan> "Meteorologisk institutt" in norway too
13:46:45 <oerjan> (that website is from them btw)
13:47:09 <AnMaster> according to Swedish wikipedia, they also do oceanography stuff
13:47:19 <oerjan> although they compete with Storm Weather Center
13:48:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw how is "yr.no" an abbreviation for "Meteorologisk institutt"..? I don't get it
13:48:31 <oerjan> it's not their main website
13:48:43 <oerjan> it's a site they operate together with NRK
13:48:59 <oerjan> yr = er, wait a second
13:49:37 <AnMaster> (or for the UK ppl here: Like BBC)
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13:50:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, "drizzle"? What is the Norwegian word for that?
13:50:51 <ais523> hmm... there must be even more drizzle in Norway than there is in the UK for it to have a short name like that
13:50:52 <AnMaster> read that as abbreviation... so I thought it was the y part only
13:51:20 <ehird> what a waste of a two letter word
13:51:21 <oerjan> don't know if there's a backronym for it
13:51:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, intersting the Swedish word "yr" means vertigo
13:51:58 <oerjan> that's "r" in norwegian
13:52:03 <AnMaster> and I suggest ais523 doesn't try to read something into *that*
13:52:34 <oerjan> actually "yr" also has another meaning which is slightly close
13:53:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm yrsel would be the noun vertigo I think.
13:53:22 <AnMaster> yr is indeed adjective in Swedish too
13:53:36 <ehird> how is vertigo an adjective
13:53:37 <oerjan> AnMaster: o with slash
13:54:17 <oerjan> "yr" also means "wild"
13:54:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think "ör" in Swedish have something to do with fishing, though I may very well be confusing it with some similar word. Fishing never really interested me
13:54:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah yes you can be "yr av glädje" in Swedish as well
13:54:55 <AnMaster> which is not same yr as "yr av att stå i toppen på ett torn och titta ned"
13:55:29 <oerjan> cannot find "r" in swedish wiktionary
13:56:11 <AnMaster> Swedish wikipedia says it is a place name
13:57:30 <oerjan> actually there's a norwegian fish known as "uer", pronounced "ur" in my dialect at least
13:57:31 <AnMaster> hm apperently I was wrong, it is an old word, still found in placenames: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svenska_ortnamns%C3%A4ndelser#-.C3.B6r
13:57:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, that may in fact be öring?
13:57:44 <oerjan> also, "rret" = "trout"
13:57:55 <AnMaster> trout, no clue what that is in Swedish
13:58:01 <AnMaster> I probably know the Swedish word
13:58:08 <AnMaster> I just don't know which one it actually is
13:59:32 <oerjan> apparently there are several "trouts"
13:59:48 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trout
14:00:06 <oerjan> also, a favorite fish for slapping people with
14:00:09 <oklocod> well, it's not exactly an endangered specie
14:00:18 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol.
14:00:27 <oklopol> i don't want a trout vs. cod joke.
14:00:29 <oerjan> oklopol: trying to be less fishy?
14:00:58 <oklopol> you can't use that joke forever
14:01:12 <oerjan> "uer" = "redfish" in english i believe
14:01:14 <oklopol> AnMaster: well aren't they like fisherizers?
14:01:38 <AnMaster> 1. Lists (PondTasksRemaining) - View All Lists Edit List Item Web ...
14:02:45 <oerjan> uer = "Sebastes marinus"
14:02:59 <oerjan> i thinking going via latin is the safest way of getting the terms correct
14:03:57 <oerjan> ah, "rose fish" the first
14:04:24 <Asztal> we would probably have all these cool fish names if the normans didn't invade :(
14:05:20 <oerjan> that redfish article is messed up
14:14:54 * oerjan watches in horror as ehird turns into a snake
14:15:00 <ehird> SSSSSSSSSSSsssssssssssss!!!
14:15:03 <ehird> SSSSsssssssssssSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!
14:15:08 * ehird spits poison at oerjan
14:15:09 <ehird> SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
14:15:22 <oerjan> note to self: stop encouraging ehird :D
14:15:26 * ehird decides poison is too slow-acting
14:15:37 <ehird> SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
14:15:52 * oerjan digs himself out ---|)
14:16:06 * ehird eats his own stomach to stop oerjan
14:16:07 <ehird> SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
14:16:41 * oerjan watches in horror as ehird turns into a singularity by eating himself
14:16:55 <ehird> MWAHAHAH- I mean, SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
14:18:15 * oerjan buys an antidote on ebay
14:18:37 <oerjan> fortunately this is very slow poison
14:19:03 * ehird cuts ethernet cable
14:19:34 * oerjan curses his landlady for not getting the wireless fixed
14:21:55 <oerjan> don't tell me i have to do something drastic like walking outside to a pharmacy
14:22:30 <oklopol> just buy them on the way to the bus
14:22:53 <oerjan> there are no shops between here and the bus stop
14:23:02 <ehird> oerjan: how can you walk outside
14:23:11 <oklopol> did you know one of your things is you need to hurry to get into the bus in time?
14:23:15 <ehird> SSSSSSSSSSSSSsssssssssssSSSSSS
14:24:16 <oerjan> oklopol: you mean, i don't log off until i have to leave. that's different.
14:24:51 <oklopol> oerjan: but you need to get in the bus. the hurrying isn't the point i guess.
14:25:19 <oerjan> if i'm _really_ in a hurry for a given bus i usually wait until the next bus
14:25:53 <oerjan> usually because i didn't manage to tear myself off the computer
14:25:55 <oklopol> but you still need to get in the bus :P it's your thing
14:26:15 <oerjan> for a certain value of "need"
14:27:09 <oerjan> there _used_ to be a grocery shop next to the bus stop, but they tore it down and built a home for the elderly
14:27:21 <ehird> oerjan: Stop talking. I have eaten you.
14:27:42 <oerjan> and without my cell phone too
14:27:44 <oklopol> oerjan: okay, perhaps your thing is just mentioning the bus occasionally? it's just that's a bit more boring.
14:28:48 * oerjan resigns to being digested
14:29:32 * ehird gives oerjan a laptop
14:29:47 <ehird> Go hack in to the firewall mainframe IP with visual basic.
14:29:54 <ehird> You can route the DLL past my stomach walls.
14:29:57 <ehird> SSSSSSSSSSSssssssss
14:30:17 <oerjan> visual basic? i think i prefer death.
14:30:35 * ehird watches his stomach acids nibble at oerjan's fingers
14:30:46 <oerjan> also i don't think i ever claimed to be that kind of hacker
14:30:57 <oerjan> or much of any kind of hacker, really
14:31:13 * ehird opens the door to his stomach.
14:31:21 <ehird> Ther's the boring way out.
14:31:32 * ehird figurse out what to do with his singularity.
14:31:45 <ehird> Infinitely wholesome.
14:31:49 <oerjan> LHC eat your heart out
14:32:48 <oerjan> if our society were based on magic, the LHC might actually have _had_ a heart
14:33:39 <oerjan> and probably been an acronym for something else
14:33:54 <oerjan> Living Hell Converter or something
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14:42:58 <oklopol> i think it's not much more than it was before it was what it now is it now?
14:43:42 * oerjan refuses to believe oklopol is trying to make sense
14:44:32 <oklopol> well what to refuse when you're being asked and if they think they already know then what can you do really i don't think anything much what do you think?
14:45:06 <oklopol> i don't, definitely not what it thinks they are.
14:45:28 <oklopol> encyclopedia of algorithms, that's one sexy book
14:50:16 <Slereah_> Does bubble sorting make you hard?
14:51:05 <oerjan> only merge sort i would imagine
14:51:45 <oklopol> i like heap sort and mergesort better than quicksort at least
14:51:58 <oklopol> but can't say i don't enjoy bubble sort as well
14:54:30 <Slereah_> It's okay, nothing to be ashamed about
15:08:41 <oklopol> i'm not that interested in sorting altogether
15:08:48 <oerjan> those finns and their double vowels
15:14:57 <ehird> Today on the "Paths that make me RAGE" channel:
15:15:00 <ehird> /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.5/lib/python2.5/site-packages/
15:39:04 <oerjan> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7650103.stm
15:39:50 <oerjan> "Medicine: Dan Ariely for demonstrating that expensive fake medicine is more effective than cheap fake medicine."
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16:28:33 <ais523> hmm... anyone here know any lazy imperative languages?
16:28:49 -!- Hiato has joined.
16:29:32 * ais523 is idling and saying hi to people in the hope of starting a conversation
16:29:49 <ais523> and working on an insane project for University which many would consider esolang-related
16:31:27 <ais523> that's why I asked if anyone knew of any lazy imperative languages earlier
16:31:42 <oerjan> i think those would be esoteric by definition
16:31:58 <ais523> well, there's one involved in my University project
16:32:01 <oerjan> sane laziness requires purity, imperativeness is the opposite of purity
16:32:13 <ais523> but it acts like an eager language really
16:32:33 <ais523> we're implementing it by compiling into a functional lanugage
16:32:42 <ais523> with variables stored in what is similar to a State monad
16:32:58 <ais523> commands happen eagerly due to the monad-chains, it's just expressions that are lazy
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16:33:33 <oerjan> ic so a language with strict distinction betwen commands and expressions might work
16:33:50 <oerjan> aka haskell, really :D
16:34:29 <oerjan> someone said haskell is the world's finest imperative language
16:34:44 <ais523> yes, the language reminds me of a language which is Haskell really
16:34:48 <ais523> just disguised as Algol
16:35:38 <ais523> also, my experiences with it, and other experiences with brainfuck, convince me that reading the value of a variable is not as fundamental an operation as was first thought
16:35:42 <oerjan> Simon Peyton-Jones, apparently
16:35:52 <ais523> in brainfuck, reading the value of a variable sets it to 0, in most cases
16:36:01 <ais523> thus you have to be clever to duplicate a variable's value
16:36:15 <ais523> hardware compilation has the same problem, but with functions
16:36:30 <ais523> if you call a function more than once, you need some way to return the result to the right physical location
16:36:45 <ais523> and if you call a function more than once simultaneously, you need two physical copies of the function
16:38:06 <ais523> does all this sound esoteric enough for this channel?
16:38:41 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaafssfggjtykuyiliuio;;;opp;p;pp;p;p;;p;p;ikkhbnfcccdregrjukuyllikjujugtfrdeddfrghhhjjhugyfgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgdgddgdgdgdgdgdgddddd
16:39:12 <oerjan> ehird: i thought you were 13, not 3
16:39:25 <ehird> oerjan: oh, that 1 was a typo
16:39:30 <ehird> 3 year olds can't type very well
16:40:03 <oerjan> those french and their double consonants
16:41:31 <oerjan> there is actually remarkably little keyboard repetition in that
16:42:51 <oerjan> also, you have failed to provide a semantics for your language
16:43:12 <ais523> I don't know the semantics or the syntax of the language in question yet
16:43:19 <oerjan> i was speaking to ehird :D
16:43:35 <ais523> also, what's the name for the paradigm VHDL uses?
16:45:14 <ehird> freeeeeeeeeeeezing
16:45:18 <oerjan> "Hardware description languages" is in the category list
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17:20:32 * ais523 ponders what a fully functional hardware description language would be like
17:23:16 <Slereah_> And trained in many techniques.
17:23:26 <Slereah_> Also, what about the Lisp machines?
17:23:29 <ais523> are you a hardware description language?
17:23:38 <ais523> but yes, Lisp machines are interesting
17:23:45 <ais523> they're functional hardware interpreters, though
17:23:57 <Slereah_> Hurray, I don't know the difference! :D
17:23:57 <ais523> I'm wondering if it's possible to /compile/ a functional program into hardware
17:24:14 <Slereah_> I thought that's what Lisp machines did.
17:24:22 <ais523> no, they run Lisp nativelt
17:24:28 <ais523> that's an interpreter, not a compiler
17:24:37 <ais523> hardware compilation produces a piece of hardware that only runs one program
17:25:12 <Slereah_> Isn't the very fact of writing the program on a lisp machine kinda compiling it?
17:25:19 <Slereah_> Like writing machine code on a usual computer
17:25:35 <ais523> well, a Lisp machine has lisp as its machine code
17:28:42 <ais523> certainly they were capable of running more than one program
17:28:42 <ehird> 'a lisp machine has lisp as its machine code'
17:28:52 <ais523> which makes them interps
17:29:13 <ais523> even in imperative languages, an x86 processor (for instance) is an interpreter for x86 machine language
17:29:30 <ais523> hardware compilation goes a step further, you start with a program and end up with a piece of hardware which runs only that program
17:30:12 <Slereah_> Isn't it more like a piece of code on the hardware?
17:30:28 <ais523> Slereah_: what, Lisp machines, x86, or hardware compilation?
17:31:15 <Slereah_> I should go back to watching this Batman reveiw
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17:49:02 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % (math.exp(math.pi)**1j)).
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18:11:36 <AnMaster> hm this computer's inside really makes no sense...
18:13:11 <AnMaster> like that main connector thing for the mobo, huge unruly thing normally even. But here the connector is mounted such that the cable is resting against the cpu heatsink to reach the contact. there is no other way
18:13:20 <AnMaster> wtf did whoever built this computer think?
18:14:26 <AnMaster> (constrast with the dell close to it, while it's inside is pretty strange, it is all very organised, and easy to service
18:28:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:40:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: Re fungot's language model, I haven't bothered to update it at all with new logs yet.
18:40:38 <fungot> fizzie: never heard of it before and after it now
18:45:40 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:48:07 <oerjan> fungot: what, you have anterograde amnesia? how awful!
18:48:08 <fungot> oerjan: i'm starting to think there's no way it could conceivably be interpreted as ellipsis for the internal macro, which *is* a function.
18:51:13 <ehird> a person who can only remember the future would rock
18:51:41 <oerjan> iirc Merlin did that in some legends or books
18:52:46 <ehird> so you could remember your teachings, you would have to have been taught some time in the future
18:52:52 <ehird> you'll immediately forget your teaching as soon as you recieve it
18:53:00 <ehird> so: you need to be taught in your craft on your deathbed
18:53:31 <oerjan> for added weirdness, also age backwards
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18:59:40 <psygnisfive> guys i discovered something interesting about english syntax/semantics that might be interesting in an esolang :o
19:00:06 <oerjan> but we all knew that already!
19:00:22 <psygnisfive> english has disjunction scope quantifiers. :o
19:01:49 <psygnisfive> John is looking for some hat X | (X is-a fedora) or (X is-a bowler)
19:02:22 <psygnisfive> (John is looking for some hat X | X is-a fedora) or (John is looking for some hat X | X is-a bowler)
19:03:28 <oklopol> but the speaker doesn't know which
19:03:42 <psygnisfive> so the disjunction has two different scopes
19:03:52 <psygnisfive> in one it has scope over the lower predication
19:04:15 <psygnisfive> while in th other it has scope over the whole statement
19:04:40 <psygnisfive> (seeks(John, x) & fedora(x)) | (seeks(John, x) & bowler(x))
19:05:23 <psygnisfive> but now consider what happens when we introduce "either"
19:05:30 <psygnisfive> John is looking for either a fedora or a bowler
19:05:36 <psygnisfive> here we still have both potential readings
19:05:54 <psygnisfive> "John is looking for either a fedora or a bowler and he doesn't care which"
19:05:59 <psygnisfive> "John is looking for either a fedora or a bowler and I know know which"
19:06:13 <psygnisfive> Either John is looking for a fedora or a bowler
19:06:32 <psygnisfive> "Either John is looking for a fedora or a bowler, and he doesn't care which" == BAD
19:06:43 <psygnisfive> "Either John is looking for a fedora or a bowler and I don't remember which" == FINE
19:07:05 <psygnisfive> so "either" can be used to force higher scope readings by placing it further left in the structure of the sentence
19:07:14 <oklopol> that's actually quite an interesting scoping ambiguity
19:07:32 <oklopol> there should be more ambiguity in programming languages
19:07:33 <psygnisfive> theres lots of crazy scope stuff like that in languages
19:07:49 <psygnisfive> there should more ambiguity with cool ambiguity resolution techniques
19:07:55 <oklopol> cise is really the only language i can think of where there's any ambiguity
19:08:09 <psygnisfive> we need a language where you have a disjunctive or, but you also have an or-scope indicator
19:08:24 <ais523> oklopol: lexing Cyclexa
19:08:34 <ais523> but it has precedence rules to resolve the ambiguity
19:08:57 <psygnisfive> theres also some cool scope stuff regarding question words
19:09:08 <oklopol> ais523: precedence rules aren't really distinct from just unambiguous parsing
19:09:20 <oklopol> in cise, you may need to reparse at runtime, if types change
19:09:25 <ais523> well, there's more than one way to tokenise things
19:09:25 <oerjan> oklopol: perl has some ambiguity in its syntax afair
19:09:30 <ais523> but it's done statically
19:09:35 <psygnisfive> "what did john buy" has the reading "for what x's, john bought x"
19:09:52 <ais523> in Perl there's more than one way to interpret some of the tokens
19:09:59 <ais523> and which is chosen can vary at BEGIN-time
19:10:15 <ais523> with the result that parsing Perl in finite time is impossible
19:10:18 <oklopol> i don't know shit about perl
19:10:20 <psygnisfive> and "who bought a hat" has the reading "for what people x, x bought a hat"
19:10:39 <ais523> oklopol: you can set code that runs before the rest of the code is parsed
19:10:43 <psygnisfive> "who bought what" reads as "for what x and what y, x bought y"
19:11:06 <psygnisfive> so NORMALLY if you want scope over the sentence, you raise the WH phrase to the top/beginning of the sentence
19:11:21 <psygnisfive> but with two or more WH phrases, one has to remain low, and it STILL gets scope
19:11:53 <psygnisfive> hungarian, bulgarian, and serbocroatian, on the other hand, REQUIRE that you raise the WH phrases to get scope with them
19:11:54 <oerjan> psygnisfive: who bought, and what?
19:12:00 <oklopol> well i think it's just convention, because you *can* do "you bought what?" it's just that has quite a strongly emphasizing connotation on the what
19:12:09 <psygnisfive> "who bought, and what" is completely ungrammatical, oerjan :p
19:12:23 <oerjan> psygnisfive: no it isn't
19:12:24 <psygnisfive> oklopol: "you bought what?" is actually not g enerally a question
19:12:47 <psygnisfive> oklopol: you're not just asking what the person bought
19:12:52 <psygnisfive> you're asking for CONFIRMATION of what you heard
19:13:27 <oklopol> psygnisfive: it's still a question
19:14:05 <psygnisfive> where you're not asking for new information but rather asking for a repetition of the phrase targeted by the WH replacement
19:14:41 <psygnisfive> and similarly, you'd never ask "what did you buy?" when you want confirmation or repetition
19:14:44 <oklopol> but i don't find this that interesting
19:15:26 <psygnisfive> its the same intonaiton on "what" in both echo questions
19:15:54 <psygnisfive> there are interesting cases in english where scope can be pulled from a REALLY deeply embedded element
19:17:04 <oklopol> i will consider, although briefly
19:17:31 <oklopol> only had time to read like 20 pages yesterday, so my quota for today is enough to keep me awake all night
19:17:48 <oerjan> do not consider, lest ye be considered
19:17:50 <oklopol> i don't want to slip from my 500p/week minimum
19:19:00 <psygnisfive> e.g. for what X, John thinks [mary bought x]
19:20:02 <psygnisfive> BAD: *what* does John wonder [Mary bought t]
19:20:29 <oklopol> that's just normal nesting
19:20:43 <oklopol> "what mary bought" there is a question embedded
19:21:05 <oklopol> i'm probably missing your point
19:21:32 <psygnisfive> keep in mind, chinese does NOT have any movement, so all the *what* phrases are in their original positions
19:21:34 <oerjan> it's all martian to me
19:22:10 <psygnisfive> Zhangsan thinks [Lisi bought *what*] == *what* does Zhangsan think Lisi bought *t*
19:22:28 <psygnisfive> Zhangsan wonders [Lisi bought *what*] == Zhangsan wonders [*what* Lisi bought *t*]
19:22:42 <psygnisfive> the lower clauses are IDENTICAL in chinese
19:22:47 <pikhq> You and your linguistics.
19:22:53 <oklopol> psygnisfive: that's not all that interesting
19:23:10 <psygnisfive> but the verb specifies whether or not the lower clause can be interpreted as a question or a statement clause
19:23:12 <oklopol> question particles just happen to be context-insensitive, and can jump multiple levels up
19:23:26 <psygnisfive> if there IS a WH-phrase in the lower clause
19:23:41 <psygnisfive> the VERB decides whether or not the sentence AS A WHOLE is a question, or a statement.
19:23:56 <oklopol> that's actually quite an interesting type theoretical issue
19:24:19 <psygnisfive> simply because the verb specifies only one kind of clausal complement, and if there's a WH-phrase in that clausal complement, you can only interpret it one what, given the verb
19:24:22 <oerjan> so how do you ask in chinese what someone is wondering about? :D
19:24:56 <psygnisfive> but that's a *what* that targets the ENTIRE clausal complement
19:25:00 <psygnisfive> not something INSIDE the clausal complement
19:25:31 <oklopol> oerjan: it's a different issue how you ask what someone is wondering someone else bought
19:25:48 <oklopol> i think i failed to construct that
19:25:49 <psygnisfive> theres actually all sorts of really weird stuff that goes on with WH phrases
19:26:30 <psygnisfive> but you did so for precisely the same reasons we were just talking about :)
19:26:57 <oklopol> psygnisfive: how do you say that?
19:27:02 <psygnisfive> and so that what, as in "ask *what* someone is wondering someone else bought" is a violation
19:27:04 <oklopol> it's not exactly something you ever need to ask
19:27:22 <psygnisfive> ask [*what* someone is wondering [someone else bought *t*]]
19:27:28 <psygnisfive> that's a violation as we pointed out earlier! :)
19:27:51 <psygnisfive> exact same violation as "*what* does john wonder [Mary bought *t*]"
19:27:52 <oklopol> well you gotta be able to ask that somehow
19:28:11 <oerjan> but you can do it with two questions intermingled
19:28:11 <oklopol> and actually i think that's perfect english
19:28:37 <oklopol> psygnisfive: give me a better construction for it, will you?
19:28:39 <psygnisfive> but you're not native, you don't have these intuitions about english
19:28:42 <oerjan> what are you wondering whether i bought
19:28:47 <ehird> that is not horrible english psygnisfive
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19:29:05 <ehird> oerjan's is horrible yes
19:29:06 <oerjan> but semantically meaningful
19:29:19 <psygnisfive> semantically we can understand a lot of stuff
19:29:29 <oklopol> psygnisfive: could you show me how to construct it better?
19:29:32 <psygnisfive> thats because we have a pragmatics system that can "make it work"
19:30:12 <psygnisfive> what is the thing such that john wonders i mary bought that thing
19:30:40 <oklopol> well yeah you used like a variable there
19:30:50 <oklopol> that's better, i do admit that
19:30:55 <psygnisfive> theres no WH-raising construction in english that lets you get that reading tho
19:31:03 <oklopol> i disagree on not having an intuition about english.
19:31:41 <oklopol> my intuition has owned many natives.
19:31:46 <psygnisfive> you might have some intuition, yes ok. but i'd question it.
19:31:52 <oklopol> being native is not a magical way to know a language perfectly
19:31:57 <oerjan> all this linguistics is something up with which i will not put
19:32:10 <psygnisfive> interestingly, some languages DO let you say "what does john wonder mary bought"
19:32:24 <oklopol> mitä john miettii maryn ostaneen
19:32:34 <oklopol> john miettii mitä mary osti
19:32:36 <ehird> 'What does John wonder Mary bought?' is fine english
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19:32:53 <psygnisfive> oerjan: are you saying that linguists would not approve of "all this linguistics is something that i will not put up with"?
19:33:05 <psygnisfive> ehird: no its not, go ask some other people.
19:33:13 <oerjan> psygnisfive: perish the thought :D
19:33:17 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i think he was just making a complicated sentence for linguistic fun's sake
19:33:20 <ehird> psygnisfive: yes, because one person saying its not fine english without evidence against two people saying it's fine...
19:33:42 <ehird> so much evidence and arguments we're seeing here
19:33:45 <psygnisfive> ehird: unfortunately, ehird, there's actually been RESEARCH into this
19:33:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: researching doesn't change the fact that its fine english
19:34:00 <psygnisfive> and the RESEARCH shows that most english speakers do not accept that sentence.
19:34:07 <ehird> you can stamp 'THIS IS CRAP ENGLISH' on a sentence all you want, and it does not make it so
19:34:07 <oerjan> psygnisfive: they will however argue incessantly about how they don't say that ;D
19:34:38 <psygnisfive> most theories of syntax REQUIRE that such things are permitted
19:34:47 <ehird> lol psygnisfive is proving oerjan's piont
19:35:07 <psygnisfive> yes, we WILL argue that we dont say that :P
19:35:28 <psygnisfive> because most people think we will. but they're confusing linguists with gradeschool english professors
19:35:55 <psygnisfive> linguists actually care about what SPEAKERS say, gradeschool english professors care what STRUNK AND WHITE say
19:36:24 <oerjan> THIS CRAP IS ENGLISH. THIS IS ENGLISH CRAP. ENGLISH IS THIS CRAP.
19:36:39 <ehird> English: Is this crap?
19:36:57 <psygnisfive> "is" is the only main verb in american english that has sentential negation AFTER it.
19:37:31 <ehird> Slereah_: many butts?
19:37:47 <ehird> psygnisfive: I butts <> I not butts
19:38:03 <oklopol> psygnisfive: interestingness approved
19:38:26 <psygnisfive> i think we should have an esolang with movement and funky scope.
19:38:31 <oklopol> well isn't that the way auxiliary verbs do it, and "is" is interesting because it does it *without* the subsentence
19:38:47 <psygnisfive> yeah, auxiliaries behave exactly like that
19:39:11 <oklopol> but will wants an event, so... pizza would be converted to a verb
19:39:20 <psygnisfive> more precisely, the FIRST auxiliary in the sentence appears before sentential negation
19:39:20 * ais523 remembers our discussion about gerunds
19:39:26 <ehird> IF YOU DON'T SHUT UP
19:39:29 <psygnisfive> unless theres a MODAL verb, like will, can, might, etc.
19:39:30 <ais523> we now know that oklopol is programming
19:39:36 <ais523> but what does "I am burning" mean?
19:39:40 <psygnisfive> in which case the first non-modal auxiliary appears AFTER the sentential negation
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19:39:50 <psygnisfive> ais: i means at the moment you're in the process of burning
19:40:06 <psygnisfive> do you really need that explained to you? come now.
19:40:22 <oklopol> or that you *are* the process of burning, although i'm not sure that can be literally true
19:40:34 <ais523> no, I don't think I am
19:40:38 <psygnisfive> tho gerunds and progressives do share morphology in english.
19:40:41 <ais523> but am I on fire, or am I performing the action of burning
19:40:44 <oklopol> psygnisfive: it's a gerund
19:40:59 <ais523> (actually neither, but the sentence I gave is ambiguous 3 ways)
19:41:12 <psygnisfive> most people learn it, but forget that it means what it means
19:41:20 <oklopol> as a gerund, wouldn't it mean "i am the act of burning"
19:41:33 <oklopol> which, of course, is ambiguous still
19:41:36 <oklopol> psygnisfive: then it was a gerund.
19:41:42 <oklopol> that was what the conversation was about
19:41:43 <ehird> ##linguistics exists
19:41:58 <oerjan> i am thinking of burning this channel down
19:42:13 <psygnisfive> im talking about the esoteric properties of a language.
19:42:33 <ehird> #esoteric is officially a channel about programming languages, not esoterica in general
19:42:39 <oerjan> and it is not the first natlang discussion here today, either
19:42:53 <psygnisfive> oklopol: lets design a language with movement and weird scope stuff. :D
19:43:02 <ehird> psygnisfive: ChanServ agrees with me.
19:43:04 -!- ehird has left (?).
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19:43:11 <ehird> 'Welcome to the esoteric programming channel!'
19:43:30 <oerjan> this is where you are programmed to become esoteric
19:43:36 <psygnisfive> english is a language for programming other peoples minds to think what you want them to think
19:43:55 <ehird> psygnisfive: psygnisfive sucks
19:44:06 <ehird> psygnisfive: psygnisfive wants to commit suicide right now
19:44:26 * oerjan whacks ehird with a pizza platter ---\____
19:44:29 <psygnisfive> but not you, since you're a horrible human being.
19:44:34 * ehird eats pizza platter
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19:45:04 <oklopol> if "little death" is an orgasm, then i guess "small suicide" would be like masturbation
19:45:07 <psygnisfive> it can have that weird quantification stuff i was on about a few months ago too
19:47:10 <oklopol> well i guess i should've made a pun, but that was a bit too far-fetched for me to be able to think of a way, without explicitly explaining the reference.
19:47:32 <psygnisfive> well, its just a non-analogy when an actual analogy would've been better
19:48:09 <oklopol> yes, i guess it's not a perfect parallel
19:48:22 <oerjan> is !:: a technical symbol?
19:48:25 <oklopol> but "self-induced orgasm" sounds a bit booky
19:48:39 <psygnisfive> because i can make shut up like !:: and you understand what i mean
19:49:16 <oerjan> oklopol: bookish perhaps?
19:49:51 <oerjan> psygnisfive: no if you don't use the proper obscure technical terms how can it possibly be understandable?
19:49:56 <oklopol> oerjan: yes, that's what i meant, it's just i really tried to write "ish".
19:50:22 <psygnisfive> noone else would understand the adhoc invention or extention or symbols like that
19:50:52 <oklopol> i invent symbols all the time when explaining stuff to ppl
19:51:12 <oklopol> the problem is, as you just said, that this is really the only place where i don't need to explain the symbols
19:51:20 <oerjan> oklopol: what about when you're talking aloud?
19:51:56 <oerjan> oh that's right, he's finnish
19:52:00 <oerjan> they are always silent
19:53:03 <oklopol> hi AnMaster, join the fun.
19:53:07 * oerjan wonders what that char showed up as
19:53:10 <AnMaster> anything interesting being discussed?
19:53:36 <oerjan> that explains the "money!"
19:53:57 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:53:57 <oerjan> i see EUR, spelled out
19:53:58 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, my client always sends as utf8, but it does auto detection on incoming data
19:54:04 <AnMaster> so the copy-paste would have translated
19:54:11 <oklopol> ais523: if you recall the muture thing, i still have problems translating programs to a search that can work with partial solutions, which doesn't rule any search techniques out, but does make things harder
19:54:17 <AnMaster> however I recommend oerjan change to utf8 encoding too
19:54:26 <oklopol> i guess you lack context to understand what i'm talking about
19:54:29 <AnMaster> instead of whatever legacy encoding he use
19:54:52 <oklopol> psygnisfive: that's kinda cool
19:55:09 <oerjan> AnMaster: i tried earlier and failed
19:55:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, it is easy in for example xchat
19:55:29 <CO2Games> Ok anyone here willing to write me a program that uses all of the language's functions and outputs something to test whether the functions worked as intended?
19:55:46 <AnMaster> CO2Games, depends on what language it is?
19:55:52 <oerjan> apparently irssi does _some_ autodetection
19:55:57 <CO2Games> it's a kind of assembly language
19:56:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, well send in utf8 still
19:56:12 <CO2Games> http://co2games.com/wiki/index.php?title=N2CPU#Instruction_Set
19:56:47 <CO2Games> the syntax on this one is different
19:57:02 <CO2Games> AnMaster: that's what assembly is
19:57:17 <AnMaster> you got no idea what "pure functional" is?
19:57:37 <AnMaster> well don't claim that x86 asm is that then
19:57:45 <oklopol> single-assignment registers! :D
19:57:52 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
19:58:02 <CO2Games> My assembly language instruction set doesn't have any ram
19:58:06 <AnMaster> first class functions, single assignment,
19:58:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, also I admit that idea needs to be worked on
19:58:47 <oklopol> well, it might work if you allowed one to bind and unbind them on procedure bound
19:58:54 <CO2Games> 16 8-bit registers and two jump flags
19:58:58 <AnMaster> oklopol, consider that you can compile java to bytecode, and that bytecode you could decompile to some asm... So... hm
19:59:04 <oklopol> and have dataflow variables, so you could return values from functions
19:59:30 <AnMaster> not very low level asm I agree
19:59:38 <CO2Games> And there's an additional 8-bit output register
19:59:45 <oklopol> i want single-assignment registers
19:59:47 <AnMaster> oklopol, how would you define "asm" code? I mean formally
19:59:49 <oerjan> ok is this utf8: æ, ø, å?
19:59:50 <oklopol> that's like the coolest idea ever
19:59:59 <oklopol> AnMaster: the fact it seems asmy to me
20:00:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, not that it is a very simple translation to the machine's own format?
20:00:21 <CO2Games> assembly means each command is a single processor instruction
20:00:26 <oklopol> well, no nesting, and integers the only store
20:00:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, because with that definition you could argue LISP *is* asm. Just fire up a LISP machine!
20:01:08 <Slereah_> Isn't anything ASM for some machine? :o
20:01:14 <oklopol> lisp has data types other than int
20:01:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, an asm language is a language that is basically a 1-to-1 mapping to machine code
20:01:29 <CO2Games> oklopol: each assembly command has a single instruction
20:01:35 <AnMaster> then lisp would qualify on lisp-machines!
20:01:40 <oklopol> CO2Games: what does that mean?
20:01:48 <oklopol> how can a command have an instruction
20:01:52 <CO2Games> it's just text names for binary commands
20:02:01 <oklopol> AnMaster: i haven't said that's a definition for being an asm
20:02:06 <CO2Games> aliases, the assembler just takes that and de-aliases them
20:02:24 <oklopol> CO2Games: my definition is more general than *that*
20:02:46 <oklopol> really quite different, i'm going by what the language feels like, not what it's used for
20:02:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: ok i think i found the right option
20:02:47 <CO2Games> you need to learn about what an assembly language is
20:02:56 <oklopol> i don't give a shit about usage
20:03:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I can't check since my client auto detect on lines
20:03:11 <oklopol> CO2Games: i've programmed ten times more asm than you :P
20:03:24 <oklopol> (for some values of true.)
20:03:25 <CO2Games> But have you made an assembly instruction set
20:03:44 <CO2Games> have you intended to make your own hardware to run them?
20:03:53 <AnMaster> so asm is basically stuff like <instr> <arg>, <arg> and instr should be a TLA if possible?
20:04:03 <psygnisfive> has anyone ever tried to design a Lisp processor that doesn't use registers and so on but processes sort of exactly like lisp does?
20:04:10 <oklopol> CO2Games: no. except once in wireworld, but turned out that'd been done
20:04:11 <CO2Games> In assembly each command is a single cpu instruction
20:04:29 <CO2Games> I intend to make hardware for my design
20:04:35 <Slereah_> So how does a Lisp machine works exactly?
20:05:00 <psygnisfive> slereah_: the way im familiar with, lisp machines work similar to non-lisp machines
20:05:03 <CO2Games> You haven't intended to make hardware matching your assembly languages, that natively runs the output
20:05:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, would you consider it asm if "mov %eax, %edx" was *written as*: "Move register eax to register edx"? or "(move eax edx)"
20:05:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, I mean it wouldn't look like asm
20:05:17 <psygnisfive> and that stuff gets pushed onto a stack, etc.
20:05:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, but in effect it would only be a trivial text transformation
20:05:27 <oklopol> CO2Games: indeed i haven't, i fail to see anything interesting in that
20:05:27 <Slereah_> I think there was a rough description in the original Lisp article
20:05:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, since nesting wouldn't work
20:05:43 <AnMaster> CO2Games, better than intel syntax at least
20:05:50 <psygnisfive> i just wonder if there are any machines that actually implement lisp directly, not through registers and so on
20:06:02 <psygnisfive> register machines are like implementations of Assembly
20:06:06 <Slereah_> psygnisfive : Does a man qualify as a machine?
20:06:07 <AnMaster> CO2Games, I consider all x86 asm ugly
20:06:15 <psygnisfive> the machine IS the instruction set and vice versa, to an extent
20:06:16 <AnMaster> CISC is just horrible to code in
20:06:19 <oklopol> x86 is the ugliest thing mankind has ever devised.
20:06:24 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
20:06:29 <oklopol> it should be destroyed and fed to pigs
20:06:39 <oklopol> yes, it's easy, but it's the ugliest thing mankind has ever devised.
20:06:44 <oklopol> it should be killed and fed to pigs
20:06:50 <AnMaster> both seem sane compared to x86
20:06:52 <ehird> for all topic in topics: psygnisfive.say('oklopol: lets design ' + topic)
20:07:30 <optbot> Slereah_: take some, bitch
20:07:40 <psygnisfive> infact, lets design an instruction set that can be compiled down to some turing machine cpu relatively trivially
20:07:50 <oklopol> noob trigger activated, time to go read my book
20:08:02 <CO2Games> If you guys are using assembler-specific loop structures, you're doing it wrong
20:08:23 <AnMaster> I would like to see what it looked like
20:08:32 <psygnisfive> i agree anmaster. it would be interesting.
20:08:44 <CO2Games> AnMaster: what do you mean purely functional
20:08:46 <oklopol> CO2Games: what do you mean? not that i'm not already cone
20:08:54 <ehird> psygnisfive: lisp machine
20:09:06 <psygnisfive> lisp machines are not functional ASM CPUs tho, ehird
20:09:07 <AnMaster> ehird, yes... but by oklopol's definition of asm
20:09:32 <psygnisfive> but they're really just register machines with built in lisp interpreters
20:09:42 <oklopol> AnMaster: it's just what i meant by asm in that context.
20:09:45 <ehird> fi you knew anything about them you wouldn't say that
20:09:57 <CO2Games> AnMaster: seriously, what do you mean purely functional
20:10:12 <AnMaster> ehird, and they were not single assignment. I want single assignment registers!
20:10:13 <psygnisfive> atleast one of them, anyway. and from what i know most others are similar.
20:10:16 <oklopol> CO2Games: purely functional means blocks give the same output for the same input
20:10:31 <AnMaster> CO2Games, the normal definition that everyone else use
20:11:08 <psygnisfive> single assignment isnt really a huge benefit
20:11:13 <oklopol> i'm all about dataflow variables atm
20:11:14 <AnMaster> and I want higher order opcodes!
20:11:27 <oklopol> with them, single assignment simply become damn elegant
20:11:39 <psygnisfive> opcodes that take opcodes as arguments and return opcodes as values?
20:12:03 <AnMaster> first-class opcodes, single assignment registers. higher order... err stuff
20:12:13 <AnMaster> not sure you can have higher order *functions* in asm
20:12:16 <psygnisfive> now we're really just talking about building hardware that runs Lisp/Haskell
20:12:25 <oklopol> AnMaster: well you can't easily have closures
20:12:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm call/cc need to be supported too
20:12:47 <oklopol> but you can have higher-order functions in anything that allows pointers really
20:12:55 <oklopol> i mean unrestricted pointers
20:13:06 <oklopol> well that's not exactly true, but you know what i mean.
20:13:12 <oklopol> well that may not be true either.
20:13:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: do you know what call/cc is?
20:13:40 <oklopol> if so, damn, dude, stop becoming functional
20:13:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, I know it, and I understand it *partly*, but it makes my head spin
20:14:09 <oklopol> well it needs some time to sink in before you see how to actually use it
20:14:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes. like lisp macros
20:14:47 <oklopol> i don't think they are that hard to see the use of
20:14:55 <AnMaster> I mean scheme without macros and call/cc is easy to understand really... Add either of those and it gets confusing
20:15:16 <oklopol> those are the tricky parts i guess
20:15:27 <oklopol> but hey, people, i'm really gonna go
20:15:34 <oklopol> well, unless CO2Games wants to answer
20:15:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, anyway I suspect we need garbage collector for the asm or something
20:15:52 <oklopol> 22:07:51 CO2Games: If you guys are using assembler-specific loop structures, you're doing it wrong
20:16:07 <CO2Games> masm has it's own loop structure
20:16:21 <oklopol> like, one that understands nested blocks
20:16:21 <AnMaster> you are thinking way too low level
20:16:25 <CO2Games> if you use it, or its if structures, you're doing it wrong
20:16:29 <AnMaster> most of us in here thinks high level
20:16:50 <ehird> <AnMaster> most of us in here thinks high level
20:16:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I claimed someone else was thinking too low-level
20:16:53 <ehird> excluding AnMaster ...
20:16:53 <oklopol> CO2Games: do you mean loopthisblock { }
20:17:14 <ehird> CO2Games was thinking too high level.
20:17:17 <CO2Games> I'm pretty sure it used something like .IF EAX or something
20:17:34 <oklopol> CO2Games: what the fuck does a loop structure mean
20:17:48 <oklopol> or that you can wrap code in a block
20:18:14 <CO2Games> I mean masm and some others have support for preprocessing a while loop on a register
20:18:19 <AnMaster> oklopol, want to hear the details?
20:18:25 <oklopol> CO2Games: and that's fail to use because...?
20:18:30 <ais523> CO2Games: gcc-bf has an asm command for a while loop on a register
20:18:36 <CO2Games> because that's not low-level enough
20:18:58 <AnMaster> oklopol, erlang compiles the code to byte code, functional byte code... However you can make it dump that as erlang asm
20:18:59 <Slereah_> http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/recursive/node4.html
20:19:01 <oklopol> CO2Games: it's simpler to code with, and gives the same results
20:19:09 <AnMaster> and it looks like nothing else
20:19:25 <oklopol> CO2Games: you mean you shouldn't do it because you shouldn't take the easy way out?
20:19:26 <CO2Games> Using low level languages like asm is used for more control over what the program is doing
20:19:46 <CO2Games> using assembler-specific things just ruins the fun
20:20:05 <oklopol> CO2Games: well anyway, no, i've never used a loop structure like that, no fun progging in an esolang if you use a wimpmode
20:20:07 <AnMaster> {function, module_info, 1, 36}.
20:20:07 <AnMaster> {func_info,{atom,intercal},{atom,module_info},1}.
20:20:10 <AnMaster> {call_ext_only,2,{extfunc,erlang,get_module_info,2}}.
20:20:22 <AnMaster> that was an auto generated function
20:20:29 <AnMaster> that contains module meta data
20:20:29 <oklopol> CO2Games: yeah, okay, if you mean it ruins the fun, then i agree 100%
20:20:44 <CO2Games> it's like an esoteric language but they pay people to use it
20:20:59 <ais523> <CO2Games> it's like an esoteric language but they pay people to use it
20:21:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, call_only is tail recursion
20:21:21 <oklopol> AnMaster: also called a "jump" :P
20:21:26 <CO2Games> it's the big hit in the drivers and hardware control industry
20:21:44 <CO2Games> your sata drivers are probably written in raw assembly
20:21:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, actually it was a generic tail call
20:22:29 <CO2Games> that's like writing a kernel in C, you should've used asm
20:22:31 <AnMaster> CO2Games, they are coded in C mostly everywhere
20:22:54 <AnMaster> oh god.. you are a troll really?
20:22:58 <CO2Games> nobody wants to work with low level
20:23:10 <oklopol> well, i agree with CO2Games, and i'm not a troll
20:23:21 <ais523> CO2Games: there are lower levels than asm
20:23:31 <ais523> even asm is still interpreted by a physical object
20:23:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, http://rafb.net/p/k0Bx1911.html <-- this may interest you
20:23:38 <ais523> my University project is about compilation into hardware
20:23:49 <ais523> where the only interpretation, if any, is done by the laws of physics
20:23:55 <oklopol> AnMaster: that even things that absolutely need to be correct should be coded in a language that makes enforcing correctness as hard as possible
20:24:02 <oklopol> but, i guess i'm a bit of a troll by nature
20:24:13 <ais523> it makes the hardware/software line blurry if you're compiling directly into hardware from a C-like language...
20:24:32 <oklopol> ais523: are you making a hdl? :O
20:24:56 <ais523> I'm compiling into an hdl from a C-like language
20:24:56 <AnMaster> CO2Games, compiling into hardware is fun :)
20:24:57 <CO2Games> I'm thinking of making my own computer system thingy
20:25:00 <ais523> which is imperative but lazy
20:25:09 <CO2Games> and expensive if it's one of those hardcore chips
20:25:21 <oklopol> ais523: verilog is pretty much c...
20:25:27 <ais523> oklopol: don't believe it
20:25:35 <ais523> it looks like C but the paradigm is totally different
20:25:41 <ais523> in C the commands generally have some sort of order...
20:25:49 <ais523> anyone can make a programming language look like C
20:25:52 <oklopol> yeah okay, it's totally different
20:25:53 <ais523> that doesn't mean it is C
20:26:23 <AnMaster> ais523, a functional language should work well for that, since you could potentially easily figure out what you can evaluate in parallel
20:26:49 <ais523> AnMaster: we're compiling via a functional language
20:26:50 <oklopol> ais523: well that sounds incredibly cool, i'd love to help, even, were i of any use.
20:27:02 <AnMaster> ais523, so something with single assignment, no side effects should be best
20:27:02 <ais523> it's sort of a limited functional language
20:27:07 <ais523> where you aren't allowed to do recursion
20:27:13 <ais523> and no, single assignment doesn't help
20:27:15 <oklopol> just read a book about processor design, and i kinda wanna play with that
20:27:27 <AnMaster> ais523, is it tc without recursion?
20:27:32 <CO2Games> my machine's emulator is 1781 lines long before preprocessing
20:27:40 <ais523> AnMaster: no, no real piece of hardware can be TC
20:27:51 <ais523> the language therefore has to deliberately be sub-TC, if you think about it
20:27:58 <AnMaster> ais523, true but you could run loops on them
20:28:11 <oklopol> asmtcness is a concept designed for this exact purpose
20:28:11 <ais523> it allows tail-recursion in the intermediate lang
20:28:18 <ais523> which is compiled from loops in the source lang
20:28:25 <oerjan> ais523: the compiling step could still be TC
20:28:32 <AnMaster> ais523, bounded storage yes. Preventing loops: not needed
20:28:42 <ais523> AnMaster: loops are allowed, so are nested loops
20:28:47 <ais523> but non-tail recursion isn't
20:28:55 <ais523> you can convert all imperative-style loops into tail recursin
20:29:11 <AnMaster> ais523, yes if nothing else you can do it as continuation passing
20:29:22 <AnMaster> probably there are better ways
20:29:25 <CO2Games> 10101 instructions in binary that is
20:29:28 <ais523> AnMaster: continuation passing in hardware?
20:29:36 <ais523> remember you don't have pointers...
20:30:05 <ais523> you just get a function to call itself at the end
20:30:09 <ais523> to loop, if the loop hasn't ended
20:30:32 <AnMaster> ais523, a language can be tc without recursion but with while-style loops. Just look at for example brainfuck
20:30:47 <ais523> but there's a limited amount of memory
20:30:55 <ais523> the TC problems aren't due to the control structures
20:31:07 <CO2Games> My machine is not turing complete on its own
20:31:10 <AnMaster> ais523, recursion without imperative-style loops is tc.
20:31:12 <ais523> recursion does create an infinite amount of memory, if you have either local variables or arguments
20:31:20 <AnMaster> ais523, so is just tail-recursion
20:31:20 <CO2Games> unless you force the user to write down a tape of bits
20:31:27 <Slereah_> What about that SMITH language? :o
20:31:38 <Slereah_> That just rewrites itself at the end
20:31:50 <ais523> I don't get what you're getting at...#
20:31:59 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you transform any loop into a tail recursive call
20:32:15 <AnMaster> ais523, if you can't use continuations
20:32:31 <ais523> a; while(c) b; d; becomes a; f(); d; sub f() {b; if(c) f();}
20:32:38 <ais523> pretty simple really...
20:33:38 <AnMaster> ais523, hm since body recursion got the same "tc-ness" as that style of loops... Is it that easy to transform any recursion into tail recursion?
20:34:09 <ais523> no, it fails if you have to maintain state and retrieve it later
20:34:22 <AnMaster> ais523, for example the traditional non-tail (body for short in this context) recursive fibonacci.
20:34:24 <ais523> or if you need to know the recursion height
20:34:32 <CO2Games> The machine cannot store data.
20:34:38 <AnMaster> ais523, you can transform it to normal loops though
20:34:58 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, you have to maintain a stack by hand
20:35:02 <ais523> to do that transformation
20:35:17 <AnMaster> ais523, right. (Though there are ways around for fib iirc)
20:35:35 <AnMaster> ais523, but stack needs pointer doesn't it? And you didn't have pointers you said
20:36:08 <ais523> void f(void) {if(getchar()!='a') {if(getchar()=='!') return; abort();} f(); if(getchar()!='b') abort();}
20:36:16 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that's why my program isn't TC
20:36:24 <ais523> although it has loops, there are some things you can't compile into it
20:36:35 <ais523> due to the lack of having infinite storage
20:36:47 <ais523> look at my one-liner C program above, and assume you've included the header files and call f from main
20:36:48 <AnMaster> ais523, a fib for 32-bit integers :)
20:36:53 <CO2Games> You can use a register to be a stack pointer
20:37:18 <AnMaster> yes there are various other ways to make fib tail recursive
20:37:18 <fizzie> It's nit-picking time! ais523's tail-recursion example implements "a; do { b; } while(c); d;" and not "a; while(c) b; d;" as advertised.
20:37:29 <ais523> fizzie: whoops, I need an extra if
20:37:40 <ais523> it doesn't really change the nature of it, though
20:37:59 <fizzie> Sure, that's why the call it picking nits. (What's the etymology of that anyway?)
20:42:48 -!- LinuS has joined.
20:43:17 -!- Mony has quit (Connection timed out).
20:43:32 <AnMaster> Oct 3 13:30:21 tux [3293016.218037] readonly.exe[6652]: segfault at 4005bc ip 4004c1 sp 7fffe6b1bf80 error 7 in readonly.exe[400000+1000]
20:43:32 <AnMaster> Oct 3 20:00:06 tux [ 4886.698062] rarian-sk-get-c[9053]: segfault at 0 ip 35fae73af0 sp 7fff6d5db9b8 error 4 in libc-2.6.1.so[35fae00000+136000]
20:43:49 <AnMaster> ais523, what I'm wondering too
20:43:52 <ais523> that sounds very like a Windows program name...
20:43:58 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and I don't have wine
20:44:14 <ais523> it seems unlikely that your computer would get rooted...
20:45:53 <ais523> AnMaster: http://web.archive.org/web/20030521231823/http://www.essenz.com/support/comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc/Oct/29/207663.html
20:46:03 <oerjan> fizzie: nits are the eggs of lice iirc
20:46:19 <ais523> seems it only happens on FreeBSD when compiling ksh
20:46:31 <ais523> maybe the same problem though
20:46:35 <ais523> I'd guess it's a confused Makefile
20:46:41 <ais523> which tries to do Windows stuff by mistake
20:46:50 <oerjan> CO2Games: a limited amount of registers can still be TC if they are unbounded, see Minsky Machine on the wiki
20:47:25 <AnMaster> ais523, found anything on the other process?
20:47:38 <AnMaster> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234489
20:48:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I think segfault log messages should record path info too
20:48:17 <CO2Games> A tape device or memory device would have to be attached
20:48:51 <oerjan> CO2Games: yeah then you need a tape device, a RAM is not technically enough since the pointer sizes would be bounded too
20:49:03 <AnMaster> ais523, if it had said something like /var/tmp/portage/app-shells/ksh-1.2.3/work/ksh-1.2.3/readonly.exe then I wouldn't have got scared like that
20:49:14 <AnMaster> or whatever the ksh version is
20:49:53 <ais523> oerjan: you could use a RAM if you had bignum pointers
20:50:06 <oerjan> ais523: he had 8-bit registers
20:50:48 <AnMaster> a real arch should have at least 64 GPR
20:51:13 <ais523> bff-gc has 64 general-purpose 8 bit registers
20:51:22 <ais523> which seems to be about the right number
20:51:26 <ais523> gcc generally ends up using 50 or so
20:51:34 <ehird> AnMaster: 16 registers is perfect
20:52:03 <AnMaster> ehird, you had this discussion with RodgerTheGreat (iirc?) before
20:52:27 <ehird> also, rodgerthegreat mostly agreed with me on the topic of asm
20:52:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it was him that wanted to have more registers
20:52:46 <ehird> as he rightly critiqued your cpu architechture which had an instruction to switch 32/64 bits but not the actual vitals.
20:53:21 <AnMaster> ehird, it wasn't complete, it was a draft
20:53:45 <AnMaster> and I was thankful for that he pointed out the issue
20:53:51 <ehird> yes, but i think it's kind of fitting that it was very portable to various large-scale applications, it just didn't have anything else they'd need...
20:54:06 <AnMaster> ehird, however. You disliked register count
20:54:18 <AnMaster> and there rodger the great agreed with me
20:54:42 <AnMaster> ehird, if you meant cpu rings, context switching and such then it wasn't intended
20:55:35 <ais523> AnMaster: it seems quite a few other people are getting those rarian-sk-get-c errors, Googling doesn't show why though
20:58:30 <AnMaster> ais523, hit number 2 at google for "rarian-sk-get-c" (http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234489) seems relevant I guess
20:58:33 <ais523> librarian-dev - Rarian is a documentation meta-data library (
20:58:46 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and that doesn't say anything really
20:59:04 <ais523> but at least it gives some clue as to why it was on your system
20:59:05 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean it could be doxygen metadata, but I doubt that
20:59:15 <ais523> I can certainly imagine something like that running during the compile of something
20:59:20 <ais523> that used it for documentation
20:59:35 <AnMaster> # equery depends app-text/rarian
20:59:35 <AnMaster> [ Searching for packages depending on app-text/rarian... ]
20:59:35 <AnMaster> app-text/scrollkeeper-9999-r1 (app-text/rarian)
20:59:49 <ais523> what depends on scrollkeeper?
21:00:01 <AnMaster> Description: Dummy scrollkeeper for testing rarian
21:00:56 <AnMaster> ais523, ah about all gnome packages that I happen to have installed because some bloody app I want depends on them instead of using something lightweight and portable such a wxwidgets
21:01:02 <ais523> AnMaster: it seems that almost all of gnome depends on rarian
21:01:20 <ais523> well this is a Gnome system
21:01:23 <ais523> so it's a lot more packages for me
21:01:28 <AnMaster> ais523, however I haven't updated rarian recently afaik
21:01:28 <ais523> it's both Gnome and KDE, actually
21:01:34 <ais523> but I normally boot into Gnome
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21:18:33 <AnMaster> ais523, well here startx to KDE loading dialog done takes about 10 seconds
21:18:48 <AnMaster> ais523, also I hardly ever reboot
21:18:57 <AnMaster> today I did for reasons out of my control
21:19:05 <AnMaster> but I had over a month of uptime before that
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21:20:42 <ehird> AnMaster: ais523 is not online
21:23:13 <AnMaster> * [ais523] is away (Gone away for now.)
21:23:21 <ehird> <-psyBNC> Fri Oct 3 20:13:37 :User ais523 quitted (from 147.188.254.96)
21:23:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I assume he have away log :)
21:23:23 <ehird> Even more correct.
21:23:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Since his client isn't connected to the server, no.
21:23:44 <AnMaster> ehird, err? the bnc should have an away log
21:23:59 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean he doesn't use it?
21:24:07 <ehird> It's the server's, not his personally.
21:24:17 <AnMaster> ehird, oh same bnc for both of you?
21:24:44 <AnMaster> ehird, also security issues. And shared away log
21:24:47 <ehird> Running two instances of it would just be wasteful.
21:24:54 <ehird> AnMaster: The latter: it is.
21:24:57 <ehird> But it is on the server.
21:25:12 <ehird> Anyway, as for security issues,
21:25:14 <AnMaster> ehird, of course I expect him to read it when he get back
21:25:16 <ehird> we both have root on the server.
21:25:25 <ehird> AnMaster: I can nitpick if I want, can't I?
21:25:36 <AnMaster> ehird, well I can't stop you :P
21:25:41 <ehird> Anyway, security issues: since we're both sudoers, we could impersonate eacho ther even with seperate instances
21:26:29 <pikhq> When I was doing an emerge --sync, I think I saw some KDE 4.1 packages go by.
21:27:00 <pikhq> I thought KDE 4 wasn't in official Portage since KDE 4 ebuilds used EAPI 2, which got approved... 2 days ago.
21:27:26 <ehird> You're either 5 years out of date...
21:27:31 <ehird> or 2 seconds bleeding edge.
21:27:50 <pikhq> I'm using an overlay, so I'm 2 seconds bleeding edge. Whee.
21:28:18 * ehird looks at pikhq's outline.
21:28:21 <ehird> Yes, that is quite some blood.
21:28:28 <ehird> I think you wanna get that checked out
21:29:01 <oerjan> that's not blood, it's just ketchup
21:29:29 * ehird bites pikhq's arm off.
21:29:45 <oerjan> it's just a flesh wound.
21:33:41 <pikhq> Oooh. baselayout-2 is about to hit Gentoo stable, too.
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22:19:06 <ihope> Are Unlambda programs worth turning into music?
22:19:31 <ihope> If not, I'll have to use Thue stuff instead.
22:19:37 <oerjan> bop boppeti bop boop beep
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23:01:52 <AnMaster> <pikhq> I thought KDE 4 wasn't in official Portage since KDE 4 ebuilds used EAPI 2, which got approved... 2 days ago.
23:01:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> You're either 5 years out of date...
23:01:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> or 2 seconds bleeding edge.
23:02:02 <AnMaster> the ones in the tree were converted
23:02:19 <ehird> Gentoo patches stuff and fails to give a shit about the maintainers.
23:02:33 <ehird> Things break, people complain upstream, developers tell them to go away because Gentoo just fucks with their stuff and doesn't tell them.
23:03:02 <ehird> AnMaster: I did not say this specific case.
23:03:23 <AnMaster> ehird, your comment about "typical" indicated that you considered the current case representative for what you said
23:03:27 <AnMaster> that is the common usage of it
23:03:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Can you guarantee that it won't break?
23:03:58 <ehird> That interpretation could be correct.
23:04:00 <ehird> But that's not the point.
23:04:23 <AnMaster> EAPI-2 is an extension to the package format, it was used in the development repo for KDE for a while. Now EAPI-2 have become standard.
23:05:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Can you guarantee that it won't break? <-- no, doing that for anything non-trivial would solve the halting problem I think
23:05:35 <AnMaster> ehird, however iirc the EAPI-2 change is minor
23:05:37 <ehird> Nothing is BROKEN.
23:05:45 <ehird> The computer always does what you tell it to.
23:05:55 <ehird> Detecting such wouldnt' be halting problem,
23:05:58 <ehird> it'd just be impossible.
23:06:12 <AnMaster> ehird, "broken algorithm" however
23:06:41 <AnMaster> ehird, "does this algorithm do what it says on the box"?
23:06:48 <ehird> Impossible to detect :-P
23:06:49 <AnMaster> that would solve halting problem
23:07:20 <AnMaster> "this algorithm returns true if the Riemann hypothesis is true
23:07:29 <AnMaster> ehird, just consider something like that ;P
23:08:04 <oerjan> i smell a logical fallacy
23:08:09 <AnMaster> or "this algorithm returns true if the function passed to it will halt"
23:08:38 <oerjan> just because it's impossible for _some_ programs doesn't mean it's impossible for _every_ program
23:09:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, I was talking about the general case however
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23:09:34 <oklopol> if the moon is on the sky then one plus one equals two
23:11:04 <ihope> This just in: Famous Oklopolian mathematician proves that basic arithmetic derives from celestial bodies.
23:11:12 * ihope yawns disavowingly
23:12:06 <oerjan> i think that should be oklopolitan
23:12:27 <oklopol> oklopolitan would probably be the most logical one
23:12:45 <oerjan> anyway it's moot as Oklopolis sunk in the ocean thousands of years ago
23:13:01 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, "does this algorithm do what it says on the box"? <ehird> Impossible to detect :-P <-- why? If it isn't the halting problem, then what is it?
23:13:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Uh, that's called "reading your mind".
23:14:03 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? Proving if a certain algorithm does what it says is mind reading?
23:14:12 <ehird> How do you codify what it says?
23:14:22 <AnMaster> ehird, using some format syntax
23:14:28 <oklopol> ehird: says on the box == satisfies a declarative specification, i assume
23:14:29 <ehird> AnMaster: ... which can have bugs in it.
23:14:41 <ehird> So now you have to verify the specification via another specification.
23:14:43 <oerjan> _every_ algorithm does exactly what it says. remarkable, that.
23:14:44 <ehird> Ooh, I love infinite regress.
23:14:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, except my wording was less format ;P
23:16:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm I suspect you could construct something like: "this algorithm: Don't run this algorithm", though that may just be a plain boring paradox
23:16:18 <oklopol> ehird: well yes, that's true, you cannot achieve what the original intention was.
23:16:41 <oklopol> cannot check whether the algorithm does what the creator wanted it to
23:17:19 <oklopol> "to run this algorithm: do not run this algorithm" isn't exactly a set of well-defined computational steps
23:17:48 <oklopol> you can either think it means do not run this algorithm as in "do not recurse" == nop
23:18:02 <ihope> "Don't do ..." is not much of an algorithm.
23:18:08 <AnMaster> oklopol, "s/do not/do never have and never will/"
23:18:21 <oklopol> you can also think in a logical sense, that it means "do not do such a sequence of operations that the result is the same as after running this algorithm"
23:18:23 <ihope> Well, I guess it's a nondeterministic algorithm.
23:18:34 <AnMaster> This statement is not a statement.
23:18:42 <ihope> The possible results of that algorithm are precisely those results that the algorithm cannot produce.
23:18:45 <oklopol> the latter is a declarative specification, a constraint, it's not an "algorithm" in the sense normally used
23:19:07 <oklopol> read what i said, it will answer all.
23:19:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, ah hm. Yes that was what I meant
23:20:36 <oklopol> so, anyone wanna share some food with me?
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23:23:17 <ihope> I'll put a bit of sugar in an envelope and mail it to you.
23:23:23 <ehird> oklopol: i didn't agree to supply the food!
23:24:03 <ihope> You'll have to send me a SASE, though.
23:24:24 <ihope> I'll give you the address.
23:25:44 <ihope> Self-addressed stamped envelope.
23:26:49 <ihope> Maybe you'll have to use one of those fancy international reply coupon things.
23:27:13 <oklopol> ihope: could you send me a SASSASE
23:27:21 <oklopol> like, so i can send you the sase
23:28:22 <ihope> I won't send you anything unless you first send me a SASE to send it in.
23:31:44 <ihope> Either that, or I can't afford the 42 cents for a stamp.
23:36:17 <oerjan> which i'm sure is far less than it would cost from norway...
23:40:11 <oerjan> 7 NOK for standard priority letter within norway
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23:42:49 <oerjan> 11 NOK to outside europe. about 1.84 USD.
23:46:33 * oerjan notes that freaking out ihope with norwegian price levels doesn't seem to be working
23:46:48 <oerjan> either that, or he's in shock :D
23:49:02 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and i dont know what "other dos emulators" is.
23:56:00 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, was the fedora/bowler hat grammar your idea? Or someone else?
23:56:16 <AnMaster> whoever it was: did the discussion get anywhere?
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00:45:45 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, about "fedora or bowler hat"
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04:04:56 <CO2Games> Hmm I should make a brainfuck compiler
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04:23:31 <ihope> Everyone should make a brainfuck compiler.
04:24:38 <Enki-][> if anyone has a bot or can grab one
04:24:49 <Enki-][> #sumisu is full of bots chatting to one another
04:25:15 <Enki-][> i figure we should get some non-markov-chain bots (elizas or alices maybe) to try to put some sense into the mix
04:33:25 <calamari> "Having the Markov property means that, given the present state, future states are independent of the past states. In other words, the description of the present state fully captures all the information that could influence the future evolution of the process. Future states will be reached through a probabilistic process instead of a deterministic one."
04:49:31 <Asztal> I had a bot, but being lazy I used a Winsock component that came with VB6 instead of using Sockets properly, and now I don't have VB6 :(
04:50:16 <Enki-][> visual basic... talk about an esolang!
04:51:02 <Asztal> the bot itself was C#, thankfully, which is a slight step up
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06:12:24 <GregorR-L> For Plof syntax naysayers: Plof's 'if' function is now called like so: if (condition) (code) else (code) (presumably with some newlines in there). The only way you could have complaints about this syntax is if you're hyper-insistent on using curly-braces. If you are, go away :P
06:19:10 <Asztal> what was it like before?
06:20:55 <GregorR-L> if((condition), (code), else, (code));
06:21:05 <GregorR-L> In fact, it's still like that, but I've swizzled the function-call syntax.
06:47:12 <GregorR-L> Now that I'm /officially/ working on PL it just makes me want to work on Plof that much more :P
06:52:24 <GregorR-L> Yes. PL/I is an extremely popular, modern programming language :P
06:58:11 <calamari> nice http://pl1gcc.sourceforge.net/
07:00:43 <GregorR-L> "There is still no code generation taking place, so don't run out and uninstall your production PL/I compiler just yet :-)"
07:03:20 <GregorR-L> Wikipedia claims that PL/I is still actively used today.
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07:11:11 <pikhq> You're officially working on programming languages?
07:11:14 <pikhq> How bizarrely appropriate.
07:12:38 <calamari> we still use it to write mainframe software
07:17:11 <pikhq> OJ Simpson found guilty.
07:20:23 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Yuh, I'm a grad student now.
07:20:40 <pikhq> Didn't realise that was exactly what you were working on.
07:20:54 <pikhq> Though that's because I didn't think about it.
07:21:30 <pikhq> It's the most natural thing for you to be working on...
07:22:21 <GregorR-L> I could see myself in networking, but I'm hoping I can leverage that in PL instead.
07:23:18 <pikhq> Take off the tie; it's controlling you.
07:24:20 <GregorR-L> Yesterday I was proctoring an exam wearing a Do Not Put the Baby T-shirt and a fez :P
07:24:39 <pikhq> Dammit; makes me wish I was at Purdue.
07:25:19 * GregorR-L is also forming Purdue Extreme Croquet.
07:26:09 <GregorR-L> Are the people on the front page of mst.edu pointing in random directions?
07:27:40 <GregorR-L> Ohyeah: Everybody go buy a Pandora (www.openpandora.org), it would suck if they didn't make their preorder max.
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07:28:43 <pikhq> Can't say; that picture is randomised.
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07:55:27 <Asztal> I want a pandora now :(
07:55:41 <Asztal> but it's £199 compared to £129 for the GP2X Wiz
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13:50:56 <oerjan> GregorR: the count on your hats page has not been updated :D
13:54:26 <AnMaster> anyone know how to find out the size of the stack from inside gdb?
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16:51:25 <GregorR> Asztal: Sure, but it's also substantially superior to the Wiz :P
16:53:34 <ehird> I submit the following proposal, titled "Have listing" (AI=1):
16:53:34 <ehird> [Major philosophical change: shorten "30 days" to self-installation to prevent
16:53:35 <ehird> the stayed Order has been judged".
16:53:35 <ehird> A message is public, the only mechanism by which rules can be required, so may
16:53:35 <ehird> as well, but after taking all other rules.
16:55:44 <GregorR> When did I become "gregorBR" ...
16:55:54 <ehird> gergorBR: No, gergorBR.
16:57:53 <ehird> GregorR: Who is GERGOR?
16:57:55 <ehird> I only know a gergor.
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17:07:41 <oklocod> that's the greatest greeting i've *ever* gotten
17:14:25 <ehird> see, i addressed you by name
17:28:04 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, about who it was that designed that language thing
17:28:09 <AnMaster> I don't have the scrollback any more
17:28:46 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, the convo of what "or" meant in English
17:29:03 <psygnisfive> uh.. i dont get what you mean by who designed it
17:29:20 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, someone suggested making a language anywhere
17:29:26 <AnMaster> my question was: did that get anywwhere
17:29:38 <psygnisfive> i suggested we make a language with disjunction scope indicators
17:29:47 <psygnisfive> no it didnt get anywhere since we only mentioned it last night :P
17:29:59 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, but what plans do you have for it?
17:30:22 <psygnisfive> probably none but i'd like to experiment with it
17:30:56 <psygnisfive> like i was saying to oklociod, i think it'd work nicely along side the quantification and predication ideas i had a few months ago
17:37:35 <psygnisfive> id rather have your stuff if you know what i mean
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18:47:39 <AnMaster> how much overhead does a malloced block have on average on a 32-bit platform
18:48:04 <ehird> there should be a channel for hardware questions like that
18:48:09 <ehird> its kind of hardware
18:48:12 <ehird> and kind of software
18:48:16 <ehird> AnMaster: dependant on the malloc impl
18:48:32 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't think there's any standard.
18:48:46 <ehird> psygnisfive: The least helpful reply to a question is 'why?'.
18:48:52 <AnMaster> ehird, surely there is some average? Like "probably 8-16 bytes" or whatever
18:49:02 <ehird> In #esoteric we can at least assume the people have a reason for doing something.
18:49:10 <psygnisfive> ehird: it wasnt an answer to that question :P
18:49:10 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't really think so...
18:49:13 <AnMaster> and reason why is because I consider implementing a memory pool system
18:49:24 <ehird> psygnisfive: why did you ask why then
18:49:43 <psygnisfive> i was asking why he was asking about the thing earlier
18:49:50 <AnMaster> because valgrinds massif says I got almost half a MB of overhead, and the total memory usage is around 7 MB
18:49:53 <ehird> that's not very clear :P
18:50:25 <ehird> void mem[big_number]; size_t top = 0; void *malloc(size_t foo) { top += foo; return mem + top; } void free(void *foo) { }
18:50:45 <ehird> void mem[big_number]; size_t top = 0; void *malloc(size_t foo) { void *ptr = mem + top; top += foo; return ptr; } void free(void *foo) { }
18:51:03 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I suspect I could reduce overhead here and yes I need low memory usage since I expect to operate on even larger data sets, so I could end up with overhead like 50 MB just for the bookkeeping data
18:51:06 <AnMaster> and that wouldn't be fun at all
18:51:11 <ehird> AnMaster: what's the project out of curiosity
18:51:49 <AnMaster> ehird, kind of closed currently, it will be open source in due time, but not for some time due to various circumstances out of my control
18:51:58 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:52:11 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm surprised you'd ever agree to an NDA. :-P
18:52:42 <AnMaster> ehird, however it is only temporary until certain other things are completed
18:52:56 <AnMaster> anyway since most of the allocations are fixed using a mempool would have less overhead I think
18:53:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Well I'm finding it hard to believe AnMaster ever agreeing to an NDA or similar so now I'm intrigued :-P. I'll be interested to see what it is when it's opened.
18:56:27 <AnMaster> I think I will have an overhead of sizeof(void*) for each object in the array, since I need to find free objects easily. The only way I can think of is having a single linked list embedded in the array. Freed objects are added to a list, The pool header contains a pointer to the first item in this linked list.
18:56:40 <AnMaster> for allocated objects, and for the last in the free list, this pointer is NULL
18:57:07 <AnMaster> only issue is I would need to initially add all objects to that free list
18:57:39 <AnMaster> unless I do something like switching allocation strategy when the last block is used
18:57:56 <AnMaster> keep a pointer to last allocated block
18:58:10 <AnMaster> allocate from that unless we reached the end of the array
18:58:21 <AnMaster> if we reached the end, then switch to allocate from the free list
18:58:28 <AnMaster> if freelist is empty, allocate a new pool
18:58:37 <AnMaster> does this sound like a good idea?
18:58:58 <AnMaster> This is the first time I try to do something like this so advice is welcome :)
18:59:08 <ehird> AnMaster: it sounds good but i have no idea about this stuff
18:59:24 <ehird> i can't think of a channel that might have people who know this kind of stuff, though
18:59:38 <ehird> its not C, it's not Linux... i mean, what is it, really
18:59:53 <AnMaster> ehird, also I had very bad memory fragmentation with malloc/free, due to allocating differently sized objects and freeing/mallocing is more or less random order
19:00:11 <AnMaster> so I will instead have mempools for the two sizes of objects I need
19:00:23 <AnMaster> and of course the smaller overhead
19:00:25 <ehird> couldn't you peek at some other memory pool system perhaps
19:00:28 <ehird> there are a lot of them
19:00:36 <AnMaster> ehird, hm like boehm-gc and such?
19:00:38 <ehird> yours sounds a bit overcomplicated to me but as i said i don't really know this stuff
19:00:48 <ehird> AnMaster: well, i know one quite often used app uses it
19:00:51 <ehird> but i do not recall its name
19:01:11 <AnMaster> however many try to be general to handle not exactly of size x but of range x-y
19:01:42 <ehird> AnMaster: i think yours sounds kind of more complicated than theirs but again i don't really know this stuff :-)
19:01:45 <AnMaster> <ehird> its not C, it's not Linux... i mean, what is it, really <-- memory allocation!
19:02:00 <ehird> AnMaster: somehow i doubt #memory-allocation would get many people :-P
19:02:39 <ehird> AnMaster: very observant
19:02:49 -!- metazilla has joined.
19:04:03 <AnMaster> ehird, just had to check in case
19:04:14 <oerjan> i never metazilla i didn't like
19:06:34 -!- kt3k has joined.
19:07:58 * oerjan wonders about the An in AnMaster's nick
19:11:31 <fizzie> I haven't read of all the context, but to me it would sound somewhat cleaner to always just give out the first item in the free-list; or if the list is empty, the next free entry in the last block; or if the last block is full, allocate a new one. That way your free-list will be marginally shorter than in the "fill the last block first" case.
19:12:02 -!- moozilla has quit (Connection timed out).
19:12:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, the issue is that I need to prepare freelist. Setting up the pointers initially is O(n) after all
19:12:27 -!- moozilla has joined.
19:12:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, free list is basically a linked list *embedded* in the array that these are allocated from
19:13:03 <AnMaster> since I want to avoid overhead of malloc
19:13:33 <fizzie> Yes, I know you can keep it there, but I see no reason why it needs to be prepared in advance if it starts out empty and you keep a separate "we have allocated this many objects from the last block" count.
19:14:07 <fizzie> When you free() the object you just need to stick the value of the current free-list pointer to wherever the free()d pointer points to, and update your current "start of free list" pointer to point there.
19:14:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, the array used for memory pool is malloced (of course), That means memory is undefined
19:14:36 <AnMaster> I would need to set the pointers of the "next free" to null
19:15:45 <fizzie> I don't see why. When you start, you set your top-level "next free" pointer to NULL, which means it will allocate from the end of the already-allocated blocks. When you free() a block, just stick the current "next free" value to the place you freed, and update "next free" to point there.
19:16:02 <fizzie> That way you'll end up with a singly-linked list of pointers, terminated by a NULL entry.
19:16:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, but that is more or less what I said :)
19:16:30 <fizzie> Huh? There's no setting-up pointers in advance, only when free()ing the element.
19:16:53 <AnMaster> but I said I would do basically what you said first
19:17:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, so how is mine more complex
19:17:53 <AnMaster> only difference is that I would allocate from end of the used blocks until I hit the end of the memory area, while you use free list as soon as possible
19:17:55 <ehird> http://www.google.com/trends <- Why is the Mormon "church"'s domain the #1 trend...???
19:18:14 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, that _is_ the only difference I was mentioning there.
19:18:23 <ehird> http://www.google.com/trends/hottrends?sa=X And with a www. in front, #20.
19:18:30 <ehird> Did they ask their members to googlebomb them or something?
19:18:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, So the only difference in the code is what entry in the struct I test for NULL ;P
19:20:00 <fizzie> AnMaster: I just think it's -- as I said, marginally -- cleaner to allocate from the pointers-all-around-the-place free list so that it goes away, instead of filling the last memory block completely first.
19:20:42 <fizzie> But the idea itself sounds good, though terribly non-esoteric.
19:20:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, however for point of memory fragmentation it doesn't matter, since all objects in the array are the same sizer
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19:21:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway yes but I couldn't think of another channel to ask
19:21:46 <fizzie> I think mooz, who used to hang around here writing befunge stuff, wrote a very nice fixed-size memory pool in C. Don't remember the details, but at least there were some similiarities.
19:21:58 <fizzie> I don't think I have a copy of it any more, though.
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19:23:03 <ehird> fizzie: being here since the start, what year would you say #esoteric was most active in?
19:24:36 <fizzie> Compared to the long-term average, it has certainly felt pretty active these last few months.
19:24:47 <AnMaster> ehird, easy to find using logs
19:25:01 <ehird> i mean actual activity
19:25:04 <ehird> not 'ooh, this place is dead'
19:25:20 <AnMaster> ehird, just check actual messages in the log
19:25:30 <ehird> AnMaster: 'ooh, this place is dead' is an Actual Message.
19:25:33 <AnMaster> but that doesn't fix the "what a dead place"
19:25:35 <ehird> actual activity is subjective
19:27:30 -!- timmytiptoe has quit.
19:29:20 <oerjan> ooh, this place is dead
19:29:41 <fizzie> Well, the byte sizes of the logs _do_ indicate _something_ about actual activity, and here's a quick-and-dirty GNUplot plot, even though the default options suck a bit: http://zem.fi/~fis/eso.png
19:29:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, full of life, bacterias living on rust
19:30:09 <ehird> fizzie: Wow, so we are living in the golden age of #esoteric?
19:30:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, there are bacterias in nuclear reactors... so?
19:30:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, there seems to be a pattern, more active during the summers?
19:31:22 <fizzie> ehird: As far as amount of content goes, maybe. I can't really meaningfully quantify the quality.
19:31:35 <ehird> fizzie: Oh our quality is certainly down.
19:31:37 <ehird> AnMaster: duh, summer holidays
19:31:41 * oerjan feels nervous about a scale using e notation without being logarithmic
19:31:59 <AnMaster> if it is, holidays is the likely reason yes
19:32:04 <fizzie> The data is so noisy I can't really tell.
19:32:23 <fizzie> Anyway, amount of bytes in my monthly logfile might not be the best measure anyway.
19:32:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, you could filter join/parts
19:32:43 <AnMaster> that would be a *bit* more correct
19:32:45 <ehird> fizzie: If you switch to wc -l, and then make it so that it draws lines between the points
19:32:48 <ehird> that'd be reasonable
19:32:50 <ehird> and hopefully not hard?
19:33:06 <AnMaster> ehird, yes and sed away anything but messages and /me
19:33:09 <fizzie> Not hard, nope. Although I think I'll also grep it so that only those so-called actual messages are in.
19:33:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, don't forget CTCP ACTIONs
19:33:51 <oerjan> making the dates on the X axis actually readable might help too *duck*
19:33:56 <AnMaster> if it is raw log then I suggest grepping for PRIVMSG would work
19:34:09 <ehird> AnMaster: it isn't raw
19:34:13 <ehird> I know because I have seen his 2002 logs
19:34:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Pretty typical-looking.
19:34:33 <ehird> Let me get you a line
19:34:52 <ehird> [18:05:22] -!- lament [~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #esoteric
19:34:52 <ehird> [18:10:45] < lament> my tarantula molted!
19:34:53 <ehird> [18:10:49] < shapr> yay!
19:34:53 <ehird> [18:14:02] -!- lament [~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net] has quit ["PROSECUTORS WILL BE TRANSGRESSICUTED."]
19:34:53 <ehird> --- Log closed Fri Jan 03 18:47:53 2003
19:35:11 <AnMaster> I suspect irssi behind that log
19:35:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Humans sometimes read things :P
19:35:16 <oerjan> ehird: great excerpt :D
19:35:35 <ehird> Incidentally, mooz is in that log.
19:35:42 <oerjan> wait, shapr was here? that must be #haskell i think
19:35:50 <ehird> [04:52:55] * andreou is feeling REALLY GOOD
19:35:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, it says "-!- lament [~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #esoteric"
19:35:57 <fizzie> Okay, I think I've got a suitable expression; and the timestamps have changed since those earliest logs.
19:36:03 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, and then shapr talks.
19:36:20 <ehird> [04:52:55] * andreou is feeling REALLY GOOD
19:36:22 <ehird> is how the /mes look
19:36:28 <AnMaster> ehird, since it says "foo joined #esoteric" that was pretty obvious
19:36:40 <ehird> [2002-12-15 01:17:38] < navigator> 27M
19:36:43 <ehird> is from the second log part
19:36:47 <ehird> but that's even older
19:36:57 <ehird> that is an iso date
19:40:14 <fizzie> The file is now updated, although the date labels are very messed up; gnuplot is really user-unfriendly when it comes to time data and I don't remember the magic settings.
19:40:31 <fizzie> At least the labels are now readable, but the tickmarks don't hit the months correctly.
19:41:00 <fizzie> Well, the points are months, and you can just count the from the nearest tickmark, which seems to be using the day/month/year format maybe. I think.
19:41:11 <ehird> fizzie: Does it draw lines between the plots?
19:41:36 <ehird> That last huge peak.
19:41:53 <fizzie> Well, the last point is this October, it's not really comparable.
19:42:11 <ehird> So, essentially, "#esoteric is dying" has never been true.
19:42:15 <ehird> It's always been gaining steadily.
19:42:28 <AnMaster> yes over 5000 lines in 4 days in October?
19:42:51 <AnMaster> ehird, also no, look at the low before that
19:43:02 <AnMaster> which was way way lower than so far this month
19:43:12 <ehird> it goes up and down BUT
19:43:15 <ehird> in the big picture
19:43:23 <AnMaster> ehird, the peaks are always larger
19:43:25 <ehird> so #esoteric has never been dying... it's been expanding
19:43:35 <ehird> we just need to figure out how to sustain the peaks :-P
19:44:08 <oerjan> more pasted code, clearly
19:45:18 <Mony> >___O< Koin Koin
19:45:55 <AnMaster> On 32-bit: 12 bytes overhead per memory pool. 4 bytes overhead per memory block. Double both on 64-bit. Still I think I beat malloc/free in the long run
19:46:31 <AnMaster> or maybe the name of some of that anime crap or whatever
19:46:46 <fizzie> No per-object overhead usually means directly that you will beat a generic malloc.
19:47:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, well that is impossible for free list
19:47:08 <oerjan> also, koin would be approximately qua... with a nasal vowel
19:47:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, and object == memory block in this case
19:47:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, but the main reason is that I got really bad memory fragmentation
19:47:31 <oerjan> but i'm googling to be sure
19:47:44 <fizzie> Oh; I though memory block == one page or so.
19:47:58 <fizzie> What do you need four bytes there for?
19:47:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway I figured out a way to make that less.
19:48:20 <oerjan> http://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/personal/dabbott/animal.html claims "coin, coin"
19:48:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, for the pointer for next free object Or do you want me to allocate the memory for the linked list of them from *another* memory pool?
19:48:41 <fizzie> No, I mean, the free-list only contains unallocated objects, which means that the pointers can be "inside" the objects there.
19:48:44 <AnMaster> anyway I could use offset in array
19:49:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, well since the objects are *less* than 8 bytes that wouldn't work on amd64 at least
19:50:04 <AnMaster> that would be truely awesome idea
19:50:21 <fizzie> I thought the "pointers use the space normally allocated for objects" was pretty much the "standard" way of doing that, at least when object size >= pointer size.
19:50:25 <AnMaster> which means 4 bytes overhead on x86_64 and 0 bytes on x86
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19:51:53 <fizzie> If you don't mind the "more instructions involved in free/malloc", I guess you could easily manage to fit into 32 bits some sort of "block index + offset" value instead of a raw pointer.
19:51:58 <AnMaster> and if I have at most 2^32 objects in each memory pool then I could use a 32-bit index instead of a pointer
19:52:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, you may have hit enter first, but I thought of it first ;P
19:53:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway I use "memory pool" here in the meaning "block header (3 * sizeof(void*)) + the relevant array"
19:53:40 <AnMaster> anyway each such block would have it's own free list I think... Or maybe I should use a global freelist
19:57:55 <oerjan> the fool, er, the pool
19:58:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, that pun totally failed
19:58:51 <oerjan> are you saying it was puny?
19:59:18 <AnMaster> err assuming puny means "has the quality of a pun"
19:59:28 <AnMaster> I guess it could mean something else
19:59:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, does it mean something else?
20:00:52 <oerjan> http://www.google.no/search?hl=no&q=define%3Apuny&meta=
20:01:20 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
20:02:51 <AnMaster> though the pun with "puny" was quite good
20:09:48 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:14:08 -!- calamari has joined.
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20:15:04 -!- hakware has changed nick to ENKI-][.
20:15:25 <AnMaster> growing with realloc() may fail
20:15:47 <AnMaster> can't see any reason why it wouldn't
20:16:31 <oerjan> it _could_ be just a NOP couldn't it
20:18:20 <AnMaster> fun fact: realloc(ptr, 0); is same as free(ptr);
20:19:11 <AnMaster> and realloc(NULL, n); is same as malloc(n);
20:19:17 <AnMaster> for all values (including 0) of n
20:19:33 <AnMaster> so basically we could do away with malloc and free
20:20:53 <fizzie> However, C99 guarantees only realloc(NULL, n) doing the same thing as malloc(n), not the "size 0 does free" thing.
20:21:36 <fizzie> And in fact my "realloc" man page says "If size was equal to 0, either NULL or a pointer suitable to be passed to free() is returned."
20:21:42 <AnMaster> "If size is 0 and ptr is not a null pointer, the object pointed to is freed."
20:21:43 <oerjan> oklocod: yllillä ollon ällä
20:21:54 <AnMaster> so that is from POSIX 2001.whatever
20:22:02 <fizzie> I don't have posix man pages installed on this system.
20:22:02 * oerjan now wonders if he actually said anything
20:22:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, so we could still do away with malloc
20:22:41 <AnMaster> and rename realloc to alloc basically
20:22:45 <oklocod> AnMaster: do you know what ollon means?
20:22:53 <oklocod> or oerjan, i'm sure one of you should
20:23:14 <oklocod> aaaanyway, oerjan, you didn't say anything meaninful, but it was definitely finnish
20:23:26 <AnMaster> oklocod, it is the fruit of a type of tree
20:23:41 <oklocod> that's not the only meaning, but yeah
20:23:45 <oerjan> well i did ensure vowel harmony
20:23:52 <AnMaster> 2. Ollon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
20:23:52 <AnMaster> Ollon is a municipality in the district of Aigle in the canton of Vaud in Switzerland, sited in the foothills
20:23:58 <oklocod> oerjan: ällä is the letter l
20:24:26 <oklocod> AnMaster: well it should also mean a glans
20:24:28 <fizzie> Also according to wiktionary: "2. den översta delen på penis eller/och klitoris; glans penis/clitoris"
20:24:39 <oklocod> i didn't even remember the other meaning
20:24:53 <AnMaster> oklocod, actually more like shine
20:25:04 <AnMaster> not sure of how to translate "glans"
20:25:10 <oklocod> it's the tip of the cocker
20:25:20 <fizzie> WordNet quote: 1. glans -- (a small rounded structure; especially that at the end of the penis or clitoris)
20:25:26 <fizzie> So it might be any small rounded structure.
20:25:50 <AnMaster> oklocod, no, it is the shine from, for example, a well polished metal surface.
20:25:57 <AnMaster> that is what the adjective glans means
20:26:05 <AnMaster> actually that is the noun form
20:26:12 <AnMaster> glänser would be the adjective
20:26:33 <oklocod> ah, that's what he was blabbering about
20:26:37 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, ah ok, but he was using Swedish before
20:26:42 <oklocod> yeah i only know obscene swedish
20:26:44 <psygnisfive> i propose a new convention: whenever referencing words from specific languages
20:27:10 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, It is needed for English too
20:27:20 <ehird> psygnisfive: <span lang="en">hello</span>
20:27:20 <oklocod> psygnisfive: i used what AnMaster used in lingobot, and it seems standard for some reason
20:27:32 <oklocod> (lingobot was a bot of mine that translated words to 150 other languages)
20:27:38 <fizzie> Why not <span xml:lang="en">like this</span>, it's nice and verbose.
20:27:42 <AnMaster> psygnisfive: English is English not English synonymous
20:27:57 <AnMaster> English that English is English how English the English correct
20:28:16 <psygnisfive> are you saying you'd prefer just en:glans?
20:28:27 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, English nicks English doesn't English need English it
20:28:31 <oklocod> fizzie: that's not verbose enough, have a separate block for each word
20:28:57 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, en:you en:don't en:get en:the en:point! en:you en:need en:it en:for en:every en:word
20:29:17 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> ok fine :P <-- en:should en:have en:been: <psygnisfive> en:ok en:fine :P
20:29:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Use-mention distinction.
20:29:32 <ehird> Plz to be learning it.
20:29:44 <AnMaster> ehird, sure ok, I was just trying to make fun of en:this
20:29:50 <fizzie> oklocod: <phrase xml:lang="en"><word xml:lang="en">Something</word><word xml:lang="fi">kuten</word><word xml:lang="sv">det</word><word xml:lang="sv">här</word></phrase>?
20:29:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Haha! You made fun of an entirely different, unjustifiably different thing!
20:30:15 <oklocod> fizzie: how about a question block too?
20:30:19 <psygnisfive> i suggested the standard natural-language version :P
20:30:26 <fizzie> oklocod: Maybe as an attribute to 'phrase'.
20:30:46 <psygnisfive> ehird, you'd do good in the semantics class i was in
20:30:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, what does <word xml:lang="fi">kuten</word> mean?
20:30:59 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's close to en:like.
20:31:04 <psygnisfive> it took the students like two weeks to get the use-reference distinction
20:31:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, that wasn't my question
20:31:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, if I had wanted that I would have used > and such
20:31:19 <psygnisfive> tho there it was called "object language" and "meta language"
20:31:33 <ehird> psygnisfive: i've always got it intuitively
20:31:41 <AnMaster> I thought he meant the syntax was like it
20:31:57 <fizzie> The whole phrase was trying to be "something like this?"
20:32:21 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, hm? you mean pointer vs object?
20:32:36 <ehird> oh look, AnMaster can only think in C
20:32:49 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah uh that'd be worse.
20:33:06 <ehird> i'm surprised you didn't take the time to respond in obscure erlang to flaunt your skillz in it, though
20:33:23 <AnMaster> ehird, if you don't stop attacking me I shall begin to use C++ with boost!
20:33:33 <oklocod> the use-reference distinction? err... the fact you can quote strings?
20:33:36 <ehird> AnMaster: if you begin to use C++ with boost then I'll just /ignore you.
20:34:16 <AnMaster> ehird, and xerces-c or whatever that horrible xml library is
20:35:09 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
20:35:37 <oerjan> wow xerces is not a misspelling of xerxes
20:36:18 <oklocod> oerjan: i noticed you've blurted out two quite low quality puns today; are you feeling alright?
20:36:43 <oerjan> oklocod: the weight of duty must be getting to me
20:37:02 <oerjan> 97% is just so hard to acheive, even with bogus accounting
20:37:30 <psygnisfive> anmaster: no, i mean code that operates on data
20:37:45 <oerjan> and what do you mean _two_?
20:37:48 <psygnisfive> e.g. quotations of the language you're speaking/coding in
20:38:40 <oerjan> maybe if i higher some recently jobless bankers...
20:38:46 <oklocod> oerjan: or perhaps just one... i don't remember the other one, i just vaguely recall there was another
20:38:52 <psygnisfive> Chicago is a major city, 'Chicago' is a 7 letter word.
20:39:00 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, Hm I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Do you mean like: Code that operates on another LISP expression vs. running that LISP expression?
20:39:04 <oerjan> my spelling is off, i think i must be tired
20:39:28 <oklocod> AnMaster: he means '(code here) versus (code here)
20:39:30 <psygnisfive> i mean the difference between calling someone a nigger, and saying that there is this word 'nigger'
20:39:39 <oklocod> the first one is data that is code, the second is just code
20:39:51 <AnMaster> oklocod, yes I know that much of lisp
20:40:12 <psygnisfive> now see, i was gonna reference lisp but i figured it'd be too easy to miss
20:40:32 <oklocod> yeah that'd've been prettier
20:40:43 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, It should be possible to make a language without that distinction
20:41:01 <psygnisfive> its possible to make a language that doesnt have reference, as such
20:41:18 <psygnisfive> in the sense that you can't talk about strings as strings-in-the-language
20:41:43 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, not if it isn't TC!
20:42:03 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, there are some interesting non-tc languages
20:42:04 <GregorR> Who was it that argued (quite accurately) that C isn't TC? :)
20:42:30 <oklocod> everyone has realized that at some point in their life
20:42:40 <oklocod> and confirmed it @ #esoteric
20:42:42 <AnMaster> GregorR, I think perl regex may be tc
20:42:52 <AnMaster> but it should be possible to extend it to me
20:42:55 <oerjan> part of gödel's theorem is essentially that in any sufficiently powerful logical system, you _can_ do reference
20:42:59 <GregorR> oklocod: Amazing since the vast majority of people know neither C nor what "TC" means :P
20:43:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, how is "sufficiently" defined?
20:43:34 <oklocod> GregorR: are you sure about the majority not knowing what C is?
20:43:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, maybe: "a logical system where you can do reference"?
20:43:37 <oerjan> predicate logic + a tiny bit of arithmetic
20:43:58 <GregorR> oklocod: Your mom is the mom of somebody who knows what C is :P
20:44:24 <GregorR> oklocod: If I go ask some random art student what C is, they'll say "UHH, THE LETTER AFTER BEEEEEE"
20:44:38 -!- kt3k has quit ("CHOCOA").
20:44:46 <AnMaster> GregorR, ais523 said it was thanks to the file IO
20:45:04 <oklocod> GregorR: i loved that BEEEEEEE :P
20:45:08 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you need infinite memory, C doesn't allow that. sizeof(char*) must be finite
20:45:12 <GregorR> AnMaster: C minus libraries is not TC. C plus libraries with hardware access (which eventually leaves C) is TC.
20:45:18 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, so memory size must be finite
20:45:31 <GregorR> Naturally if you had a libInfiniteTape, C would be TC, but libInfiniteTape can't be written entirely in C.
20:45:47 <psygnisfive> but why does sizeof char* have to be non-finite?
20:45:55 <AnMaster> GregorR, well the file IO is part of the standard
20:46:01 <oklocod> psygnisfive: otherwise only a finite amount of memory can ever be addressed
20:46:03 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
20:46:22 <GregorR> AnMaster: When we talk about languages in #esoteric, we're not talking about libraries ^^
20:46:29 <GregorR> AnMaster: Even if those libraries are a standard part of the language :P
20:46:29 <psygnisfive> im not sure what sure, but does the C SPEC say that pointers have to be of a specific size?
20:46:46 <oklocod> psygnisfive: no, but they must be of *some* size
20:46:51 <AnMaster> GregorR, so you talk about freestanding C? As used for kernels
20:46:51 <psygnisfive> or does the fact that C is on a finite machine require that?
20:47:08 <GregorR> AnMaster: Shore, but they always have some ASM too.
20:47:09 <AnMaster> GregorR, and it was ais523 who first mentioned the file IO argument
20:47:15 <psygnisfive> oklocod, if that's the case, then _all_ programming languages are non-TC :P
20:47:28 <GregorR> psygnisfive: No, because most languages don't have pointers.
20:47:33 <oklocod> in many languages, there is no need to have an address for an object
20:47:34 <GregorR> (Most *modern* languages anyway)
20:47:46 <psygnisfive> sure but the C spec doesnt say that pointers have to be of some specific size does it?
20:47:59 <oklocod> psygnisfive: no, but they must be of some finite size when execution starrts
20:48:02 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, the problem is the size of the pointer itself have to be finite
20:48:39 <psygnisfive> since every memory address on an infinitely long tape is also a finite number
20:48:42 <oklocod> psygnisfive: the set of all usable numbers is infinite extendable
20:48:48 <oklocod> if you don't have pointers
20:48:59 <psygnisfive> there are an infinite set of usbale numbers
20:49:03 <oklocod> turing-completeness doesn't need infinite memory, just infinitely extendable
20:49:04 <oerjan> psygnisfive: sizeof(int *) has to be a finite number, no int pointer can be larger than that
20:49:07 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, "finite size when execution *starts*"
20:49:07 <psygnisfive> but NONE of those numbers themselves are infinitely large
20:49:15 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you need to be able to grow it forever
20:49:19 <oklocod> psygnisfive: nothing needs to be infinitely large
20:49:30 <GregorR> psygnisfive: With a tape you don't need to absolutely address any of those finite numbers.
20:50:08 <oklocod> psygnisfive: turing completeness is not about actually ever being able to allocate infinite memory, just that for any finite amount of memory the program may request at runtime, that amount of memory will be accessible
20:50:13 <psygnisfive> you mean that because you have to be able to talk about the size of specific pointers in C
20:50:20 <oklocod> for any pointer size, this is not enough.
20:50:23 <psygnisfive> because those pointers, being crucial to C's TCness
20:50:48 <GregorR> Mind you, it's a strawman argument since C is defined for finite machines :)
20:50:54 <psygnisfive> im not sure how pointers are crucial to TCness but
20:51:21 <oerjan> hm wait a minute does C say anything about the unit of sizeof?
20:51:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, only that it must be finite
20:51:34 <psygnisfive> sure but i dont have to allocate memory myself when doing, say, int five = 5
20:51:45 <oklocod> i think we've went over this
20:51:51 <GregorR> oerjan: An type with infinite range can't actually store the pseudonumber "infinity" anyway.
20:51:53 <psygnisfive> and im fairly certain that you can get TCness with just that
20:52:07 <AnMaster> and size_t is as large as pointers are
20:52:10 <GregorR> psygnisfive: But everything in C must be addressable: That is &var must always be defined.
20:52:11 <psygnisfive> without any reference to pointers or pointer tizes
20:52:16 <GregorR> psygnisfive: Whether you use it or not.
20:52:18 <oklocod> is whether size_t could be abstract, and actually a bignum
20:52:26 <psygnisfive> well then that ruins the argument, GregorR:
20:52:31 <oklocod> i think that's what i'm asking
20:52:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, sizeof() returns a size_t, sizeof(size_t) == sizeof(int*)
20:52:41 <psygnisfive> because the argument was that the size of the pointer was crucial to TCness
20:52:58 <AnMaster> since it needs to be finite when execution starts
20:52:59 <psygnisfive> but if you can build a TC bit of code without referencing the size of a pointer
20:53:06 <GregorR> psygnisfive: No, it was that /because/ C lets you address any variable, the size of pointers is crucial to the definition of C.
20:53:07 <psygnisfive> then the size of a pointer ISNT crucial to TCness
20:53:18 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, err see what I said
20:53:18 <GregorR> psygnisfive: You could make a subset of C that didn't have that property and would be TC, yes.
20:53:49 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and you can't access memory without pointers
20:54:07 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, so you can't malloc() a block larger than a pointer
20:54:18 <AnMaster> larger than the range of a pointer*
20:54:28 <psygnisfive> im not sure you'd need to do malloc() to make something TC in C.
20:54:43 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, or access offsets in a static array either
20:54:54 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, however it is TC with file IO
20:54:55 <psygnisfive> im not sure you'd need ARRAYS to make TCness in C.
20:55:14 <psygnisfive> i just dont see how the size of something unrelated to TCness can affect TCness.
20:55:33 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you need infinite memory, You can't access memory outside the range of pointers in C
20:55:35 <psygnisfive> yes, ok, the C spec requires size(int*) be finite, meaning that it requires finite memory, meaning its not TC
20:55:46 <psygnisfive> sure, fine. that i can see as a sort-of-argument
20:56:06 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, prove it is TC even without file IO then
20:56:51 <psygnisfive> but thats more about how pointers are implemented in C, not about C itself.
20:57:09 <oerjan> what i mean is, couldn't sizeof(int *) = 1, and _still_ int pointers have infinite range because the sizeof unit is infinite
20:57:19 <oklocod> psygnisfive: the finite pointer size basically means, you have a turing machine, but there is a finite amount of cells it can ever reach.
20:57:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, sizeof(char) == 1 by definition. char must be a finite number of bits (the define CHAR_BIT iirc)
20:57:57 <oklocod> it is about C, because C guarantees you need to be able to address a variable.
20:58:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, pointer must be whole bytes
20:58:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, could be CHAR_BITS btw, not sure about the name
20:58:27 <psygnisfive> and you can address an INFINITE number of variables in C! you just need enough memory to store that many variables
20:58:28 <oerjan> GregorR: did you fix your hat count? :D
20:58:40 <psygnisfive> and a c-compiler to know how big the memory addresses are for that memory.
20:58:43 <oklocod> psygnisfive: you need to be able to access them all with a finite pointer.
20:58:51 <oerjan> GregorR: the count on your hats page is outdated
20:58:57 <GregorR> I'll just remove the count.
20:59:18 <oklocod> psygnisfive: finite, as in there will always be a program that allocates a greater amount of memory
20:59:24 <psygnisfive> just because C guarantees you can address all the pointers doesnt mean that being ABLE to address all pointers is relevant to TCness
20:59:55 <psygnisfive> does C dynamically adjust pointer sizes to handle memory differences?
21:00:00 <GregorR> AnMaster: http://codu.org/hats.php
21:00:06 <oklocod> psygnisfive: pointer sizes are static.
21:00:13 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, "finite and fixed when program starts"
21:00:14 <psygnisfive> if my machine has more memory than yours, does C know this, and alter its pointer size?
21:00:38 <psygnisfive> the question is does the size depend on what machine you start the program on
21:00:40 <oklocod> psygnisfive: C doesn't say anything about the pointer size
21:00:46 <oklocod> that has nothing to do with this argument
21:00:49 <AnMaster> other than it needs to be finite
21:01:07 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you can't create/use memory that can't be accessed with a pointer in C
21:01:11 <psygnisfive> because C DOES let you address any and all variables you want
21:01:17 <AnMaster> so every variable needs to be accessible with a pointer
21:01:40 <psygnisfive> theres no such thing as memory that cant be accessed by a C pointer
21:01:42 <AnMaster> and every variable need to have an unique address
21:02:04 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you could have a 32-bit C on a 64-bit machine
21:02:05 <GregorR> I BLAH YOUR BLAHS UNTIL BLAH BLAH
21:02:10 <oklocod> psygnisfive: even with an infinitely large memory C wouldn't be tc
21:02:38 <oerjan> fungot: do you blah about this?
21:02:38 <fungot> oerjan: something like scheme48 ( upon which scsh was based) would be
21:02:42 <ehird> psygnisfive: You are wrong, C is not turing complete, end of.
21:02:46 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, no I didn't. I said every variable must be addressable
21:03:02 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and a C program can't access any memory that is not addressable with a pointer
21:03:04 <psygnisfive> all computations require only finite, but indefinitely large amounts of momory
21:03:09 <ehird> psygnisfive: Of course I am, because you have continually shown that your attitude is that you cannot possibly be wrong, especially your intuitions.
21:03:49 <oerjan> psygnisfive: the point is you cannot calculate the needed size in advance
21:04:07 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, pointer size can't change at runtime
21:04:15 <psygnisfive> thus proving that there is no computation that cannot be performed in C
21:04:25 <psygnisfive> so long as you are given the appropriate amount of memory
21:04:30 <ehird> way to go psygnisfive, whenever someone explains when you are wrong ignore them
21:04:32 <psygnisfive> thus proving that C is, despite your idiocy, Turing Complete
21:04:41 <psygnisfive> anmaster, i didnt say change it at runtime
21:05:01 <oerjan> psygnisfive: but a single C program run isn't Turing Complete
21:05:06 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, restarting the program on another system is not valid for TC
21:05:27 <oklocod> psygnisfive: that's a valid point, yes
21:05:43 <psygnisfive> because you're talking about individual RUNS of a program in C
21:06:10 <psygnisfive> but that too is a problem with computers being finite
21:06:19 <ehird> we're talking hypothetical
21:06:23 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, no you are wrong, since the program is basically another one if you change pointer size
21:06:36 <oerjan> psygnisfive: the problem here is that C is then not a single language in the CS theoretical sense
21:06:38 <ehird> we are talking about C running on a machine with actual, real, infinite tape
21:06:51 <oerjan> it becomes a family of languages indexed by pointer size
21:06:55 <oklocod> psygnisfive: ignore AnMaster and ehird, and listen to oerjan
21:07:02 <psygnisfive> oerjan: that is the first sensible response.
21:07:22 <AnMaster> oklocod, well s/AnMaster and// ;P
21:07:33 <oklocod> psygnisfive: your arguments weren't exactly sensible until recently either :P
21:07:43 <psygnisfive> and to that i'd say, in that case, sure. but then it makes no sense to say the C language is not TC since there is no such thing as the C language, merely particular C languages with specific pointer sizes
21:08:15 <oerjan> Hurrah! Icecream to everyone!
21:08:34 <oklocod> AnMaster: no, i win. i'm the winner
21:08:35 <oerjan> also, when is oklocod and psygnisfive going to marry?
21:09:00 <ehird> oerjan: hopefully soon so they can stop spamming #esoteric with it.
21:09:24 <oklocod> also, i'm still waiting for your proposal
21:09:27 * oerjan likes icecream with chocolate bits
21:10:48 <oerjan> has anyone done a wedding proposal on Agora yet, i wonder
21:11:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, I prefer vanilla icecream
21:11:54 <ehird> oerjan: that would be awesome
21:12:06 <ehird> oerjan: 'Proposal: Marriage (AI=1) { ... }'
21:12:13 <oerjan> well vanilla icecream with chocolate sauce is also a favorite
21:12:25 <psygnisfive> oerjan: vanilla icecream plain is decicious
21:12:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, I prefer with maple syrup
21:12:51 * ehird rips AnMaster's and psygnisfive's head off for insulting the Great Mighty 15-Year-Old Agora
21:13:14 <oerjan> ehird: i think AnMaster was discussing icecream
21:13:27 <psygnisfive> im just confused by the popularity of nomics in general
21:13:33 <ehird> psygnisfive: why not
21:13:59 <psygnisfive> i dont like games, so thats partially why ;)
21:14:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, ever tried it? Oh and Ice cream made from fresh vanilla pods. Not just some vanilla-flavoured sugar.
21:14:15 <ehird> yes, games are trivial!
21:14:36 <ehird> also, ice cream in any form, shape or anything is amazing
21:14:41 <psygnisfive> oh, im not saying people dont find them to be fun
21:14:52 <psygnisfive> i'm just not one of the people that does. :P
21:15:06 <AnMaster> ehird, sure but some forms is tastier than other ones
21:15:19 <ehird> AnMaster: well... it's kind of like bacon
21:15:25 <ehird> there's not much room for suckitude :-P
21:15:37 <oerjan> psygnisfive is italian?
21:15:44 <ehird> SOMEONE MAKE IT, NOW
21:16:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> you are a GENIUS <-- well thank you
21:16:14 <AnMaster> I shall remember that for the future
21:16:15 * oerjan thought it:gelato = en:icecream
21:16:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Well only on the subject of bacon ice cream.
21:16:31 <GregorR> There's a donut shop in Portland that makes Bacon Maple Bars
21:16:32 <ehird> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelato sez wp
21:16:48 <AnMaster> ehird, please say it again with "AnMaster:" in front (without quotes), so optbot could put it in topic!
21:16:52 <psygnisfive> there are slight differences in how its made
21:17:04 <ehird> AnMaster: no, optbot strips those off
21:17:04 <optbot> ehird: Screen brightness. Turn it down. :P
21:17:15 <ehird> GregorR: Hmm. Say, an #esoteric meetup in Portland. YES THAT SOUNDS GOOD
21:17:17 <oerjan> ehird: that mad english cook has an egg and bacon icecream, was mentioned in the Ig Nobel news recently
21:17:24 * ehird plots to steal all the bacon maple bars
21:17:26 <GregorR> ehird: I don't live in Portland now :P
21:17:36 <psygnisfive> in my experience, gelato is smoother and heavier
21:17:38 <AnMaster> ehird, Portland in what country?
21:17:40 <ehird> GregorR: Well... fine it'll be a very lonely meetup
21:17:57 <ehird> AnMaster: US i'm guessing.
21:18:22 <GregorR> Is there a Portland, UK? I can't imagine there's a Portland anywhere else ...
21:18:27 <GregorR> But yeah, I was referring to Portland, OR, USA.
21:18:41 <ehird> 5000000000000 portlands
21:18:44 <oerjan> psygnisfive: maybe it's like it:pizza /= us:pizza
21:18:46 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland
21:19:23 <AnMaster> GregorR, what about Australia?
21:21:16 <GregorR> Portland, OR, USA is the only Portland of significance :P
21:21:29 <oerjan> there's a Sortland, Norway at least
21:22:09 <oerjan> i've never been to a portland
21:22:42 <psygnisfive> oh btw europeans, especially french and germans:
21:23:40 <ehird> i am kind of european. i'm in europe but my country cries whenever anybody says europe
21:24:04 <psygnisfive> which country? england? they dont like being part of europe.
21:25:09 <ehird> AnMaster: our government keep weaseling out of european union stuff :-P
21:25:48 <ehird> AnMaster: why? I haven't seen actual objections to the EU beyond the beauocracy
21:25:52 <psygnisfive> but who's going to check America's international influence? CHINA? RUSSIA?
21:26:00 <psygnisfive> not that americans influence is so hot these days but
21:26:26 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is one part, and the other part is that, while for some countries stuff improved with EU, it went the other way for Sweden. We used to have better social security before EU
21:26:35 <oerjan> a beauocracy would be something
21:26:41 <ehird> oerjan: bearocracy
21:26:48 <ehird> the government consists of bears
21:26:51 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems everything goes to some average
21:26:52 <ehird> and the bears decide everything.
21:27:08 <ehird> AnMaster: I guess.
21:27:29 <AnMaster> ehird, so for Sweden it really been a bad thing. For some other countries it has been a good thing
21:35:51 -!- lilja has joined.
21:55:01 <ehird> THIS IS A BEAR HELLO
21:55:03 <ehird> ( http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/bearhello )
21:56:45 <ehird> all of Somebody's toons are like that
21:56:47 <ehird> but its not a series
21:57:01 <ehird> bear hello is the masterpiece though
21:57:51 <ehird> actually i think bear hello makes some sort of sense if you recognize that its not in chronological order
21:58:22 <psygnisfive> non-linear story telling is also pretty awesome
21:58:34 <ehird> http://shii.org/knows/Bear_Hello <- a scholarly interpretation of bear hello
21:58:35 <oerjan> sense it no! make cannot
22:11:31 <ehird> psygnisfive: google. use it
22:14:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, Talk like Yoda day it isn't
22:16:22 <oerjan> 21 May, Talk like Yoda day is.
22:17:58 <oerjan> Är det inte Kim Jong-Il som sitter der borta?
22:22:06 <ehird> psygnisfive: shrug
22:25:17 <ehird> link? ive seen one more of his
22:25:28 <ehird> also there is no tusho in #esoteric
22:25:31 <psygnisfive> http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/misc/
22:25:49 <ehird> huh, he made puppy whirl?
22:26:31 <ehird> psygnisfive: also because i felt like it
22:28:19 <psygnisfive> no, i just liked "tusho" better. it sounded cooler.
22:28:38 <ehird> it also had a quota of 1 'tush' joke a day
22:28:56 <psygnisfive> ::hug:: well i liked it and i never made such crude jokes
22:29:24 <ehird> should i grep to find it
22:29:32 <psygnisfive> so i never noticed that "tush" reading at all
22:30:02 <AnMaster> ehird, btw GCC got something called "objective-c++"
22:30:14 <ehird> AnMaster: thats not gcc specific
22:30:18 <ehird> its for interfacing C++ and obj-c code
22:31:01 <ehird> AnMaster: probably, but you gotta use c++ stuff somehow
22:31:06 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective-C#Objective-C.2B.2B
22:31:28 <ehird> its just the objective- transformation applied to c++ instead of c
22:31:39 <ehird> no actual interaction
22:32:09 <AnMaster> ehird, not GCC specific you said?
22:32:16 <ehird> AnMaster: originated in gcc.
22:32:47 <AnMaster> ehird, what other compilers have it?
22:33:03 <ehird> gcc is like the only obj-c out there
22:33:05 <ehird> apart from that one guys'
22:33:13 <ehird> he has a vendetta against apple
22:33:20 <ehird> and thus no actual obj-c program compiles with his impl
22:33:23 <ehird> because it is totally different
22:33:29 <ehird> AnMaster: theres not anything in that that is _specific_ to gcc
22:33:32 <ehird> but i think gcc is the only current impl
22:33:38 <ehird> but then gcc is the only real obj-c impl
22:33:42 <ehird> so only as much as obj-c is gcc specific
22:34:20 <AnMaster> what do you think of the language "Dylan"
22:34:33 <ehird> AnMaster: its a lisp derivative
22:34:35 <AnMaster> however I ran into it a few times recently
22:34:40 <ehird> it originally wasn't syntaxful
22:34:45 <ehird> but it was made syntaxful to appeal to a wider market
22:35:06 <ehird> AnMaster: not an improvement, but it DOES show that a lisp can have added-syntax and not break
22:35:17 <ehird> define method factorial(n :: <integer>)
22:35:18 <ehird> n * factorial(n - 1)
22:35:46 <ehird> yes, pascally languages generally are very easy to read
22:35:49 <ehird> but not easy to write
22:36:07 <AnMaster> and it prevents the best thing with lisp
22:37:12 <AnMaster> btw in "R5RS" what does the R and the RS stand for?
22:37:22 <ehird> Revised^5 Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme
22:37:29 <ehird> Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme
22:37:31 <ehird> Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme
22:37:33 <ehird> Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme
22:37:36 <ehird> Revised^4 Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme
22:37:44 <ehird> because nobody could be arsed to write out that many "Revised"s
22:38:09 <ehird> AnMaster: but that's less fun
22:38:29 <ehird> its up to Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme
22:38:31 <ehird> although as i said
22:38:36 <ehird> R6RS wasn't really passed in
22:38:39 <ehird> by any sane vote counting method
22:39:02 <ehird> AnMaster: pretty much, yes
22:39:22 <ehird> AnMaster: it adds a base standard library to scheme, which is cool, but its not structured very schemey
22:39:28 <ehird> and it also bloats the language
22:39:32 <ehird> with some unneccessary stuff
22:39:40 <AnMaster> ehird, a standard library *is* a good idea however
22:39:53 <ehird> but r6rs isn't the answer
22:39:54 <AnMaster> would make portable scheme programs actually be possible
22:40:13 <ehird> AnMaster: no, because that'll be a revision of r7rs
22:40:17 <AnMaster> probably wants to be compatible with r5 hm...
22:40:24 <ehird> and most of the scheme community has disavowed the committee
22:40:41 <AnMaster> you said r7 would be a revision or r7
22:40:52 <ehird> [[On 29 August 2007, the Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on Scheme was ratified by the Steering Committee. This has made a lot of people quite angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.
22:40:52 <ehird> Many programmers believe that it was created by some sort of community process, though the Jatravartid people of Viltvodle VI believe that the entire Standard was in fact sneezed out of the nose of a being called the Great Green Arkleseizure. This theory is not widely accepted outside Viltvodle VI, and so, standards being the puzzling documents that they are, other standards are being designed. And this wiki, which is called SchemePunks, is definitely not part
22:40:56 <ehird> Which is very odd, because without that fairly simple piece of knowledge, nothing that is written on here could possibly make the slightest bit of sense. We hope to develop an alternative specification for the Family of Programming Languages known as Scheme. Watch this space.]]
22:41:00 <ehird> that likely got cut off
22:41:30 <ehird> oerjan: yes, from scheme-punks.org
22:41:36 <ehird> the second paragraph got cut off
22:41:47 <AnMaster> which is called SchemePunks, is definitely not par
22:42:01 <ehird> t of the Scheme Underground, even if it is, which it isn't.
22:42:08 <oerjan> ... definitely not part
22:42:20 <ehird> "R6RS must die." -- Chicken lead developer Felix Winkelmann
22:42:52 <ehird> http://lists.r6rs.org/pipermail/r6rs-discuss/2007-October/003351.html
22:43:00 <ehird> the whole list of people who ain't gonna implement r6rs
22:43:01 <AnMaster> lisp should have module name spaces
22:43:04 <ehird> (Spoiler: all of them)
22:43:07 <ehird> AnMaster: common lisp does
22:43:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it makes code easier to organise
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22:43:36 <ehird> AnMaster: plt has modules and such
22:43:48 <ehird> plt is as featureful as common lisp, really, just with a more schemish (generally cleaner) attitude
22:43:55 <AnMaster> ehird, yep. However non-portable code troubles me
22:44:01 <AnMaster> call it a character flaw if you want
22:44:12 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't like the scheme situation either
22:44:16 <ehird> common lisp isn't any more portable
22:44:22 <ehird> common lisp has no portable networking etc
22:44:38 <ehird> AnMaster: except that attempts to reinvent lisp have been almost universally poor
22:45:44 <ehird> im considering doing something with plt scheme sometime
22:45:48 <ehird> just to kind of show my support for it
22:45:51 <ehird> reach out to more languages
22:46:34 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, also
22:47:18 <ehird> all the reviews of Chez Scheme i've read are _very_ highly praised, it sounds like its IDE is state of the art (really good analysis, refactoring and such cools) and apparently its library set is really good
22:47:26 <ehird> also it was first released in 1985
22:47:27 <ehird> and uses incremental native-code compilation
22:47:31 <ehird> (read: really really fast)
22:47:47 <AnMaster> if ((pool->first_free - pool->base) >= (POOL_ARRAY_COUNT * sizeof(memory_block))) <-- GCC complains that I compare signed and unsigned, but I can't figure out which side it thinks is signed..
22:47:51 <ehird> so i guess PLT isn't *the best* but it's the best to *use*
22:48:07 <ehird> indeed scheme.com (chez scheme site) doesn't even list the price
22:48:13 <ehird> just a 'contact us for licensing information'
22:48:17 <ehird> which is code for '$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'
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23:21:12 <fizzie> Re R6RS, note that "all of them" does not include PLT.
23:26:52 <ehird> there are odd unicode chars in that line
23:27:04 <ehird> its not even unicode
23:27:41 <ehird> fizzie: do you know
23:30:27 <fizzie> 0xc2, 0xa0 -> 0b11000010 0b10100000 -UTF8-> 0b00010100000 -> U+00A0 NO-BREAK SPACE
23:30:59 <fizzie> Or maybe a "-[de-UTF8]->" notation would be more appropriate.
23:31:41 <ehird> fizzie: sqlite3.OperationalError: Could not decode to UTF-8 column 'text' with text 'Wooble is a coauthor of this proposal.
23:31:43 <ehird> no, its not utf-8/
23:31:56 <fizzie> Well, 0xc2 0xa0 _is_ UTF-8 encoding for no-break space.
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23:42:07 <AnMaster> valgrind: the 'impossible' happened:
23:42:14 <AnMaster> I think my code is really fucked up atm
23:49:03 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i would be really happy if someone checked if the update is ok. :-).
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00:20:07 <AnMaster> does UTF-8 come in different flavours for different languages really!?
00:30:47 <fizzie> "de" as in "decode", in this case.
00:31:47 <fizzie> Although in "decode" the "de-" has the usual ~= "un-" prefix meaning.
00:33:28 <ehird> http://drivey.com/DONKEYQB.BAS.html i wish i could code like this, its a whole game with graphics packed into such small space
00:33:36 <fizzie> "Latin prefix, “from”. 1. Meaning reversal, undoing or removing: decouple, de-ice. 2. Intensifying: denumerate. 3. Meaning from, off: detrain."
00:33:46 <ehird> i used to say, blah blah bill gates can't program blah blah sucks blah
00:33:54 <ehird> but then donkey.bas, just, wow
00:34:00 <ehird> i couldn't write donkey.bas in that little code
00:35:51 <ehird> also even if i could write that code i couldn't write it on an 80x24 console with no fancy cross-referencing
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03:56:30 <ihope> So, mathematical proofs have been turned into music.
03:57:21 <ihope> Each step is one note, the pitch being its depts.
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05:19:38 <psygnisfive> you know that oklocod isnt in norway right?
05:27:59 <GregorR> To my knowledge, oklocod is not a scrawny woman with a penis.
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08:39:32 <oklocod> sometimes i just say something to know whether i'm oerjan or oklopol. we're just that similar
08:39:39 <oklocod> also i guess i'm not either atm
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11:49:03 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | makes sense.
12:20:04 <AnMaster> btw, anyone know a regex to validate an email? I needs to support all the obscure features, such as embedded and nested comments
12:20:22 <AnMaster> perl or PCRE style regex needed
12:20:59 <AnMaster> I don't need to extract the email in some normalised format, just find if it is valid or not :)
12:29:16 <Ilari> AnMaster: Dunno, but that validation is possible to do with DFA+counter...
12:37:49 <fizzie> http://www.regular-expressions.info/email.html claims to have a RFC 2822 -compliant one, but I'm not sure I'd (a) trust them or (b) use it.
12:40:56 <fizzie> I'm not sure it does comments correctly, judging from the description.
12:43:14 <Ilari> To do comments right, you need something more powerful than standard Regex (which is equivalent to DFA).
12:43:37 <fizzie> Well, Perl regex is quite far from "standard", what with the "embed code in it" features.
12:43:51 <fizzie> But the one quoted there is suspiciously short and simple for that.
12:46:02 <fizzie> Still, depending on circumstances it might make more sense to ask your local mail system whether it thinks the given address is valid, especially if you intend to actually send some mail there. Not that that's always possible.
12:48:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't know if there will be any mail system where the code runs
12:49:15 <AnMaster> and even if there was, I got no idea how to ask it
12:49:27 <AnMaster> qmail? ssmtp? sendmail? postfix?
12:54:46 <fizzie> Yes, for potentially-portable code it's not really possible.
12:56:20 <fizzie> And of course that kind of testing would usually accept "foo" as a valid address since it often auto-expands to "foo@the.local.domain".
12:58:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm yeah I only care if it is well formed, not if it is valid
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13:08:51 <fizzie> If you really want exact compliance, you might have more look just writing a parser from the RFC2822 ABNF notation, instead of trying to match that with a regex.
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13:51:54 <ehird> lol@psygnisfive correcting oklopol's whereabouts to bsmntbombdood
13:52:06 <ehird> bsmntbombdood was having orgies with oklopol before psygnisfive even came here the first time/
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14:24:19 <oklopol> yes i guess i'm somewhat... orgylicious?
14:45:08 <Asztal> I've seen a proper RFC 822 email regex, and it was definitely longer than the one of regular-expressions.info
14:45:20 <Asztal> it was about 20 lines or so at 80 characters wide
14:45:34 <ehird> Asztal: its not valid.
14:45:38 <ehird> its about 40 lines
14:45:45 <ehird> it only handles nested comments
14:46:59 <Asztal> it's a shame, really, I like my double-quoted email addresses, but I can't use them anywhere
14:47:56 <Asztal> e.g. "Real Name"@domain.com
14:50:53 <fizzie> Should be possible to do a real one with Perl regexps, though; this slide has one "match balanced parentheses" example: http://perl.plover.com/yak/regex/samples/slide083.html
14:52:04 <fizzie> And PCRE also seems to have some support for doing recursion within a regex with syntax like "(?P>name)", which apparently will recursively match a group named (?P<name>...).
14:52:52 <fizzie> The Perl one embeds Perl code in it so obviously only works with Perl, and correspondingly the (?P>name) syntax seems to be a PCRE-only extension.
14:53:42 <oerjan> this stuff reminds me of that "gluing things to a skateboard to make a racecar" phrase with brainfuck derivatives
14:55:15 <oerjan> now where did that go...
14:56:45 <oerjan> my attempts to google seem to only throw up people doing so physically, or something
14:57:12 <oerjan> ah it was "luxury car"
15:00:04 <fizzie> [2006-08-05 03:50:52] < RodgerTheGreat> brings to mind the old "gluing parts onto a skateboard to make a luxury car" adage.
15:00:26 <oerjan> it's in the Brainfuck article on the wiki
15:02:11 <fizzie> Whoops, the fungot ^oko command got lost when it crasheded.
15:02:11 <fungot> fizzie: try it! it's so clever i wanna cry
15:02:24 <fizzie> fungot: See, it doesn't work.
15:02:24 <fungot> fizzie: but i want to apply map to each list in the end
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16:00:33 <AnMaster> Asztal, are you sure quoted emails like that are valid?
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16:02:27 <ehird> So is "Hello (world"(test\)ab"c)")@foobar.com
16:10:13 <AnMaster> ehird, how many MTAs handle that?
16:10:21 <oerjan> that's not the precise word i would have used
16:10:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Beats me.
16:10:44 <ehird> But the "canonical" version is "Hello (world"@foobar.com
16:10:51 <AnMaster> hopefully all, but that is so strange, one never knows
16:13:11 <Asztal> hmm, thunderbird doesn't show it properly, but it does get to me when I use it
16:18:15 <oerjan> Parsing is a solved problem, it's just everyone keeps forgetting the solution...
16:18:30 <oerjan> and it is _not_ regexes
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16:30:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, right, a recursive parser would work best I think
16:30:37 <AnMaster> at least it seems like the most logical way to do it
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17:08:22 * ihope convolutes psygnisfive with a sinc function
17:08:44 <ihope> You were broadcasting on too many frequencies, I'm afraid.
17:09:02 <ihope> oerjan: sin x / x, modulo constants.
17:09:18 <ihope> In the slang sense of "modulo", that is.
17:10:04 <ihope> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/sinc, en.wiktionary.org/wiki/modulo?
17:11:00 <ehird> oerjan: i beat you to it
17:11:03 <oerjan> ic, it really _is_ modulo constants
17:11:47 * oerjan convolutes ehird with absinthe
17:12:11 * ihope looks in his Book of Fourier Transforms
17:13:17 <oerjan> "A revival of absinthe began in the 1990s, when countries in the European Union began to reauthorize its manufacture and sale."
17:13:19 * slereah convolutes ihope with Dirac Delta
17:13:52 <ihope> Let's see, sinh is e^x - e^-x modulo a constant, so its Fourier transform is...
17:14:01 <ehird> psygnisfive: yes but i am 13
17:14:06 <ihope> slereah: that tickles!
17:14:06 <ehird> most certainly illegal :-P
17:15:42 <psygnisfive> banning absinthe was silly in the first place
17:15:50 <oerjan> and now ehird seems to be stuck in my convolution apparatus
17:16:10 <ihope> Well, the Fourier transform of e^iax is delta(omega - a) modulo a constant, so... I think the delta means psygnisfive has permanently modified me.
17:16:26 <psygnisfive> did this inspire you earlier, oerjan: http://xkcd.com/26/?
17:18:20 <psygnisfive> thats a golden oldie XKCD right there. back when randall was a wee boy trying to be cool AND nerdy at the same time
17:20:02 <oerjan> i think ihope started this subject, not i
17:20:22 <psygnisfive> did this inspire your earlier, ihope: http://xkcd.com/26/?
17:21:06 <ihope> psygnisfive: nope.
17:21:24 <oerjan> hm, IWC had something similar
17:21:35 <oerjan> (of course i read both)
17:22:05 <oerjan> or maybe xkcd did it twice
17:22:45 <ihope> Irregular Webcomic is the one with the legos, isn't it?
17:22:51 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1640.html
17:23:03 <oerjan> not this one comic though
17:23:26 <oerjan> oh wait it was an xkcd parody
17:23:42 <psygnisfive> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/2078.html
17:24:10 <psygnisfive> "Hah! haha! That's so funny! Because like, see, Indy said they don't stop for anything, and then the nazi says that they sneer at stopping! :D"
17:24:54 <oerjan> that's an in-joke, sort of
17:25:22 <oerjan> the nazi science sneers bit
17:25:25 <psygnisfive> meaning they're only fun... inside a small group of people
17:25:43 <oerjan> um it's an inside joke for _that comic_
17:27:04 <oerjan> oh and there is sinc too
17:32:27 <SimonRC> so, a comic is doing a joke that is only funny if you have read the comic?
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17:44:43 <ehird> SimonRC: so, a comic is doing a joke that is only funny if you have read the comic?
17:49:04 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | More like ``all the hallucination''..
17:51:16 <ehird> i guess psygnisfive thinks garfield is hilarious
17:51:18 <ehird> no context needed there
17:51:50 <oerjan> hey hey don't let it get out of hand here
17:52:10 * ehird opens hand, it gets out
17:52:47 <ehird> stop swatting things
17:52:52 <ehird> I nominate ihope for Grand Swatter.
17:53:07 <oerjan> you're not a thing are you?
17:53:26 <SimonRC> ehird: I prefer garfield minus garfield
17:53:30 * oerjan hides the swatter before ehird can swallow it again
17:53:41 <ehird> SimonRC: hmm, what about garfield minus jon
17:53:45 <ehird> what about garfield minus garfield and jon
17:53:48 <ehird> SimonRC: I ate it before
17:53:51 <ehird> when I was a snake
17:53:57 <ehird> causing a singularity
17:54:05 <ehird> SimonRC: a few days ago
17:54:34 <ehird> knuffelt sounds like a death metal term
17:54:39 <oerjan> hey, keine Verknuffeling!
17:54:43 <ehird> like... knuffelt=RIP BRAINS OUT
17:55:21 <ehird> that should be a v
17:55:30 <ehird> FVCKING KNVFFELT RAMPAGE
17:55:50 <oerjan> no obviously it should be ü
17:56:04 <ehird> psygnisfive: no, U->V is very common among METÄLHEADS
17:56:22 <ehird> FVCKING KNVFFËLT RÄMPÄGË
17:56:39 <ehird> ¨V is the most metal of all letters, though
17:56:56 <ehird> SimonRC: V with an umlaut
17:57:07 <ehird> you get the REALLY METAL u-with-umlaut
17:57:11 <ehird> the REALLY METAL u->v
17:57:16 <ehird> ¨V = the metalest of all characters
17:57:24 <SimonRC> um, combining characters go after don't they?
17:57:32 <psygnisfive> u->v is not really metal. i refuse to believe this proclamation.
17:57:56 <ehird> SimonRC: os x lets me do ¨-then-a to get ä
17:58:02 <ehird> so I was following with that
17:58:13 <ehird> psygnisfive: here, one citation: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=kvlt
17:58:24 <ehird> [[Deriving from the word "cult", kvlt is spelled like it is in order to create a medieval vibe.
17:58:24 <ehird> This is because it is used to speak positively of a metal band (particularly of the death/black metal variety) for their cult underground status. Is also applied the same way as tr00]]
17:58:24 <oerjan> well if metal uses umlaut to be quasi-nazi, they could clearly use V to be quasi-fascist
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17:58:47 <ehird> psygnisfive: now make it uppercase
17:59:09 <SimonRC> ehird: that's when typing. In unicode, the combining codepoint comes after
17:59:12 <ehird> fuck that's metal.
17:59:23 <ehird> SimonRC: but I was typing it ¨-then-V
18:00:27 <SimonRC> "The Berlin Interpretation" sounds much more significant than it actually is.
18:01:00 <oerjan> also, no:kvalt = strangled, suffocated
18:01:22 <ehird> KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT KV̈LT
18:01:23 <SimonRC> sounds like a good band name actually
18:01:37 <ehird> also The Berlin Interpretation sounds like an awesome band name
18:01:43 <SimonRC> an attempt to define what a Roguelike game is
18:02:09 <ehird> THE BERLIN INTERPRETATION
18:02:17 <SimonRC> decided at the International Roguelike Development Conference 2008
18:02:27 <ehird> The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretation The Berlin Interpretat
18:02:41 <ehird> psygnisfive: no, i called it first. after he did
18:03:04 <ehird> no... i have an idea
18:03:22 <psygnisfive> sort of like jazz improvisation, but by committee
18:03:26 <ehird> The Berlin Interpretation should make their songs by writing a program to process a randomly generated rougelike's map
18:03:32 <ehird> and turning it into a musical blueprint
18:06:42 * SimonRC goes away, but irssi is still listening.
18:07:14 <ihope> Hmm, we need a SimCity-like roguelike.
18:07:29 <ehird> i wanna code a simple rougelike sometime
18:07:56 <SimonRC> ehird: there is already a "The Rougelike" (sic)
18:08:03 <ihope> I will now look up Dwarf Fortress, read about it, and say "Not at all."
18:08:14 <ehird> [[A roguelike game written mostly in Common Lisp, and the first version was written in 7 days.
18:08:15 <ehird> The game takes a satirical approach at Wikipedia. Your character is a "rouge" admin, and you must commit as many outrageous actions as possible before you'll get forced out of Wikipedia. For each such action you'll get Rouge points. You also have Karma points, which are given for good actions and subtracted for bad actions.]]
18:08:35 * SimonRC goes away, but irssi is still listening.
18:09:28 <ihope> Probably very much like Dwarf Fortress.
18:10:06 <ehird> ihope: You're meant to say "Not at all"
18:11:04 <ihope> ehird: sorry, but my opinion of the game changed when I learned what it is.
18:12:21 <ihope> Being able to change your mind is a sign of maturity. Not understanding others' maturity is a sign of immaturity. Therefore, I am more mature than you. :-P
18:14:00 <ehird> <ihope> I will now look up Dwarf Fortress, read about it, and say "Not at all."
18:14:08 <ehird> ihope: Not keeping promises is a sign of immaturity. :-P{
18:14:45 <ihope> Pointing out others' immaturity is a sign of immaturity. Therefore, I'm still more mature than you.
18:14:58 <ehird> ihope: But you pointed out my immaturity first, thus making you immature.
18:15:28 * oerjan proves his maturity by swatting both ihope and ehird ---##
18:15:45 <oerjan> STOP QUARRELING YOU KIDS
18:15:46 <ehird> I nominate ihope for Grand Swatter
18:15:58 * oerjan hides the swatter again
18:16:02 <ihope> How long's the nomination period?
18:16:21 <ihope> I also vote ihope.
18:16:30 <ehird> Tick tock tick tock
18:16:32 <ihope> Wait, there are no other contenders, so you can just install me.
18:16:38 <oerjan> I declare an emergency and cancel the vote, due to terrorist threats
18:16:47 <ehird> ihope: Oh. I install ihope as Grand Swatter.
18:16:58 <oerjan> you don't have a swatter
18:16:59 <ehird> oerjan: emergency sessions don't stop the iadop
18:17:06 <ehird> oerjan: and you'll notice yours has disappeared
18:17:10 <ihope> Now I swat oerjan.
18:17:10 <ehird> as you are no longer Grand Swatter
18:17:19 <ehird> oerjan: agora office
18:17:22 <ehird> International... something
18:17:24 <ihope> An International Associate Director of Personnel, isn't it?
18:17:26 <ehird> Handles the elections of other offices.
18:17:35 <ehird> Grand Swatter is by analogy to Grand Poobah.
18:17:40 <ehird> Who controls the caste system.
18:17:51 <ihope> You can get personnel pizzas at my school.
18:19:05 <psygnisfive> "I hope you can get personal pizzas at my school"
18:19:45 <ihope> I don't think the personnel pizzas contain any personnel.
18:20:01 <psygnisfive> infact, you can get them every day at the cafe outside my building
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18:21:10 <psygnisfive> my school cooks live personnel into their pizzas
18:21:33 <psygnisfive> you can feel them wiggling and squirming as you swallow them
18:21:51 <Asztal> I totally failed to parsed that first sentence
18:22:00 <oerjan> very tiny personnel or very big pizzas?
18:22:00 <ihope> Are they animal or vegetable people?
18:22:01 <Asztal> (and failed to grammared)
18:22:05 <ehird> oh, fucking wonderful. one of those rickroll sites that resize your browser and bat it around the screen.
18:22:20 <ihope> I hear that you can slice up vegetables and they'll still be alive.
18:22:39 <psygnisfive> ive been tempted to swallow a fish live. :o
18:22:45 <ehird> totally the most hilarious thing ever guys right
18:23:07 <ehird> on the scale of hilarious
18:23:23 <oerjan> ah before the last decadence
18:23:32 <psygnisfive> "fuckin' a" is a very long island thing to say
18:23:44 <ihope> It has a z-score of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,etc,000,000.
18:23:49 <oerjan> ehird is british afaik
18:24:01 * ihope walks away, chanting BBBBBBBBBBBBBB
18:26:10 <oerjan> shouldn't that be BRBRBRBRBRB
18:28:44 * ihope does a Google search for 'esoteric bbbbbbbbbbbbbb'
18:29:15 <ihope> Now taking bets on how many results I got.
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18:30:53 <ehird> ihope: who was right
18:31:26 <oerjan> ehird is disqualified as he clearly googled himself before betting
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22:06:48 <AnMaster> Huh is there really no way to translate "lagom" to a single English word
22:07:21 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi.").
22:08:19 <olsner> that's like the most well-known untranslatable swedish word though
22:08:39 <AnMaster> olsner, well Norwegian apparently has it...
22:09:02 <AnMaster> but apart from that seems no one else does
22:09:19 <AnMaster> olsner, after all it is such a useful word
22:09:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well... That is hard to describe
22:09:53 <AnMaster> like "average, sufficient" but with a positive meaning. Like "the golden mean" or such
22:10:10 <AnMaster> ehird, but that is inexact too
22:10:20 <ehird> AnMaster: how about 'just right'?
22:10:21 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagom (!)
22:10:59 <AnMaster> I think the "Other languages" there is incorrect
22:11:09 <AnMaster> "passeli" sounds like Finish to me
22:11:33 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, doesn't wikipedia have some page about it?
22:11:41 <olsner> I guess 'passeli' ~= 'passlig' or something in swedish
22:11:42 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure I read that before
22:11:49 <ehird> AnMaster: [[Often used as answer to the question "how are you?".]]
22:11:54 <ehird> "How are you?" "Just right"
22:11:54 <psygnisfive> yeah but it doesnt make any sense that its undecidable
22:11:57 <ehird> would seem to make sense
22:12:02 <AnMaster> ehird, lagom can't be used like that
22:12:12 <ehird> AnMaster: well in norweigan it can
22:12:19 <psygnisfive> i mean, you have a finite number of pairs and you can only use one pair once, right?
22:13:09 <psygnisfive> ok nevermind i misread the description of the problem
22:14:24 <AnMaster> ehird, It would sound bloody strange to use it for "How are you?". The standard answer is like in English
22:14:31 <ehird> AnMaster: "Lagom" ("lagum, lugum") also exists in Norwegian and is accepted in both Bokmål and Nynorsk. The connotations in Norwegian, however, are somewhat different from Swedish. In Norwegian the word has synonyms as "fitting, suitable, comfortable, nice, decent, well built/proportioned". While some synonyms are somewhat similar in meaning (e.g. "suitable" and "reasonable", "fitting" and "in balance"), many present in Swedish don't seem to exist in Norwegia
22:14:37 <ehird> when did that get cut off
22:15:11 <ehird> an and vice versa. A closer equivalent in terms of denotation/connotation is the Norwegian word "passe" ("passende, passelig", see Jante Law), which translates more or less as "fitting, adequate, suitable" in English. The concept of 'lagom' is similar to Russian expression 'normal'no' (нормально, literally normally, note that 'normality' doesn't mean being too good or too rich), which indicates sufficient and sustainable state of, e.g., one's liveliho
22:15:15 <ehird> did that get through
22:15:18 <psygnisfive> ehird, if you're gonna talk about languages, you might want to come over to #isharia on sorcery.net
22:15:22 <ehird> ood. Often used as answer to the question "how are you?".
22:15:32 <ehird> psygnisfive: i'm just copypasting from wikipedia
22:15:33 <psygnisfive> lots of people i think would enjoy talking about these things with you guys
22:15:36 <AnMaster> ehird, get a client that splits :P
22:16:08 <ehird> but fine, random channels are cool to me
22:16:20 <ehird> speaking of which why did I leave #vjn?
22:16:30 <ehird> swedish people talking in broken english like 'pretty an cool'
22:16:33 <ehird> and going okokokokoko all the time
22:16:41 <AnMaster> ehird, it wouldn't work to answer "How are you" in Swedish, that was all I was saying
22:16:42 <ehird> please don't smite me for that typo oklopol
22:16:51 <AnMaster> <ehird> swedish people talking in broken english like 'pretty an cool' <-- err no?
22:16:57 <ehird> AnMaster: i said finnish
22:17:01 <ehird> and that's what people do in #vjn
22:17:05 <ehird> 'kinda an cool thing :)'
22:17:13 <ehird> i have a suspicion it is on purpose.
22:17:48 <ehird> psygnisfive: oh this is gold, irc.sorcery.net forward me to NOMAD.SORCERY.NET
22:17:52 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean to make others believe they aren't as good at English thus tricking their opponent?
22:17:59 <ehird> AnMaster: i just think they're batshit insane
22:18:36 <AnMaster> ehird, what was the operations of a nomad now again?
22:18:38 <ehird> i mean that seals the deal doesnt it?
22:18:40 <ehird> i can never leave now
22:18:47 <ehird> AnMaster: i'd have to look it up in the logs
22:18:58 <AnMaster> ehird, right then how do they differ from monads?
22:19:09 <ehird> AnMaster: I turned 'a' into 'm a' and 'm a' into 'a'
22:19:14 <ehird> making them entirely useless :P
22:19:37 <ehird> AnMaster: in the type signatures
22:19:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't yet know haskell :P
22:19:58 <ehird> AnMaster: you asked
22:20:02 <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird, right then how do they differ from monads?
22:20:10 <AnMaster> ehird, right. I expected something understandable
22:20:16 <ehird> pfffffffffffffffffffft
22:20:25 <AnMaster> ehird, btw is there any good online resource for learning haskell?
22:20:30 <ehird> AnMaster: yah. yaht
22:20:43 <ehird> http://www.cs.utah.edu/~hal/docs/daume02yaht.pdf
22:20:47 <ehird> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/YAHT
22:21:05 <ehird> once you've read that and turned into a phd-holding, banana eating computer scientist
22:21:08 <ehird> read http://www.realworldhaskell.org/
22:21:13 <ehird> to learn how to actually write real programs
22:21:15 <ehird> AnMaster: its an idiom
22:21:38 <AnMaster> Slereah_, I do like many of the ideas with scheme
22:21:38 <ehird> Slereah_: Purely functional BITCH
22:21:52 <AnMaster> until I can write *portable* *non trivial* scheme programs
22:22:05 <AnMaster> and everyone seem to dislike r6rs
22:22:10 <Slereah_> ehird : Haskell isn't purely functional
22:22:14 <ehird> Slereah_: Yes it is.
22:22:28 <Asztal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomad_(disambiguation)
22:22:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Well... Haskell programs aren't too portable either
22:22:33 <ehird> GHC extensions are really useful, mostly.
22:22:47 <AnMaster> ehird, hm But I assume it is possible to write portable ones?
22:22:49 <ehird> someone with my sense of humour!
22:22:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah... but... not very desirable
22:22:57 <AnMaster> ehird, also what about REPL? does Haskell have that
22:23:03 <psygnisfive> "For Haskell Nomads, see Monad (functional programming)."
22:23:34 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, check page history
22:23:53 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed, I was just wondering who it could have been
22:23:55 <Asztal> also, http://sovietrussia.org/code/src/11983479293370831.jpg
22:24:16 <Asztal> it was /prog/ from 4chan :(
22:26:58 <AnMaster> so can't print that tutorial now
22:29:31 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway don't me expect it to read it right now, but thanks a lot for that link
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22:33:41 <AnMaster> High on my list to learn of languages: Scheme (started, I understand the basics, but call/cc and macros cause headache still), Haskell, Ocaml
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22:33:51 <AnMaster> ehird, anything you object to in that? :)
22:34:04 <AnMaster> (also I need to code more scheme to really learn it)
22:34:15 <ehird> AnMaster: call/cc is fun
22:34:28 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, but it is hard to think about
22:35:53 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
22:36:38 <psygnisfive> i inevitably forget im using mibbit and try to close a tab and end up closing the whole app
22:36:56 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, why use that thing then?
22:37:02 <AnMaster> what is wrong with a real client
22:37:13 <psygnisfive> my school blocks all message-related stuff from a proper IRC app
22:37:32 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, that is bloody strange
22:38:05 <psygnisfive> i just am guessing that server connection stuff is not the same as messaging stuff
22:38:15 <psygnisfive> if i knew how to do those things i'd try them.
22:38:50 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, to computer at home
22:39:07 <AnMaster> then use some console client there
22:39:31 <psygnisfive> i have my mac mini running right now in fact
22:39:53 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, if you remembered to open the port
22:40:06 <psygnisfive> i can connect to it any time i need so long as its on
22:40:13 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, what about firewalls
22:40:18 <psygnisfive> i have ichat set up to autoaccept screensharing from me :p
22:40:30 <psygnisfive> i just need to figure out the tunneling thing
22:40:39 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, ssh command line option
22:40:53 <AnMaster> it lets you forward some ports
22:42:36 <AnMaster> can it do everything that haskell code written in a file can?
22:42:48 <ehird> but not the same syntax
22:42:53 <ehird> AnMaster: everything in a REPL is in a do block
22:43:01 <ehird> thats why 'let x = y' instead of 'x = y'
22:43:04 <Asztal> can you define data types too?
22:43:06 <ehird> also things like import is ':module'
22:43:10 <AnMaster> ah so it is more like erlang's REPL then, some stuff have special syntax
22:43:50 <AnMaster> while the scheme REPL seems to be completely equivalent to a scheme file
22:44:01 <AnMaster> and that is a feature I really really like
22:44:34 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:45:56 <ehird> AnMaster: haskell doesnt work like that.
22:46:16 <ehird> if it was file-based, you couldn't do anything but import, and define
22:46:27 <ehird> do { ... } is what lets you use IO stuff and such
22:46:46 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, man page or google
22:51:27 <psygnisfive> thank you, anmaster. if this works, i'll .. uh .. give you free blowjobs for life. or something.
22:51:45 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I'm not homosexual
22:52:02 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, anyway you need to *give a command line option when you ssh*
22:52:06 <ehird> AnMaster: the first step is admitting you have a problem!
22:52:23 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I don't remember the exact syntax. I rarely use it
22:52:32 <AnMaster> but I have used it a few times
22:52:55 <psygnisfive> ok. so i have to SSH in USING port forwarding in the ssh command?
22:53:07 <psygnisfive> also, ehird: how do you start applications in terminal?
22:53:21 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, iirc you did something like: ssh user@host -A 7777 -B foo:12387
22:53:25 <ehird> open -a Appname file
22:53:27 <AnMaster> don't remember names for A and B
22:53:51 <AnMaster> -L [bind_address:]port:host:hostport
22:54:06 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, how hard was that!
22:54:19 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, open isn't bash, it is Mac OS X specific program
22:54:26 <AnMaster> it is not universal in any way
22:54:26 <psygnisfive> thank you anmaster, i wasnt asking for the precise command :P
22:54:42 <psygnisfive> i was asking ehird about running a program for separate reasons
22:54:56 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, if you think "open" is bash then you are wrong :P
22:55:05 <ehird> HE DIDN'T THINK THT
22:55:33 <AnMaster> ehird, why does OS X need an "open"?
22:56:01 <ehird> AnMaster: because /Applications/Foo.app/ is a directory
22:56:07 <ehird> "bundles" are directories appearing as files in os x
22:56:11 <ehird> so instead of unreadable tars or whatever
22:56:18 <ehird> that you can double click
22:56:22 <ehird> same for tons of other things
22:56:31 <AnMaster> that seems to be a closed format
22:56:39 <ehird> AnMaster: stupidest thing said all day
22:56:44 <ehird> *.dmg is a disk image
22:56:56 <ehird> and i'm not going to continue because no matter what i say you'll find a way to blab about how terrible os x is
22:56:59 <AnMaster> ehird, 1) tar is for installation archive, 2) dmg is for installation archive
22:56:59 <ehird> so its completely unproductive
22:57:03 <ehird> so you can just stay in the dark
22:57:08 <AnMaster> ehird, there are no tars for installed apps
22:57:28 <ehird> AnMaster: HELLO! I BELIEVED YOU MISSED THE PART WHERE I SAID I'M NOT GOING TO TALK
22:57:38 <AnMaster> just because you are wrong heh
22:57:49 <AnMaster> I love that you are such a bad looser
22:58:26 <AnMaster> and yes I know about bundles. But what has tar got to do with that?
22:58:29 <ehird> just that talking to you is the most annoying fucking thing ever
22:58:37 <ehird> because you're the most irritating person on the planet
22:58:40 <AnMaster> tar.gz or such is more like .dmg
22:58:46 <ehird> because you hate OS X in any possible way you can
22:58:49 <AnMaster> ehird, the issue is you mentioning .tar.gz
22:58:55 <ehird> AnMaster: the issue is shut the fuck up
22:59:05 <AnMaster> ehird, what the heck has tar files got to do with anything?
22:59:24 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, can you explain then?
22:59:47 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, there got to be some logic behind it
22:59:53 <AnMaster> also following ehird's tradition
22:59:56 <oerjan> <AnMaster> "passeli" sounds like Finish to me
23:00:05 <psygnisfive> ehird is there any way to send commands as another user through SSH if i havent previously set up that user as an SSH user?
23:00:08 <AnMaster> ^echo ehird, what the heck has tar files got to do with anything?
23:00:08 <fungot> ehird, what the heck has tar files got to do with anything? ehird, what the heck has tar files got to do with anything?
23:00:15 <fungot> ehird: a former friend lives, their door had my surname written on it
23:00:17 <psygnisfive> like.. can i change the SSH prefs if im logged in as an administrator?
23:00:26 <AnMaster> ^echo ehird, you are an hypocrite
23:00:27 <fungot> ehird, you are an hypocrite ehird, you are an hypocrite
23:00:37 <ehird> sudo -u user ...command...
23:00:46 -!- AnMaster has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ehird, you are an hypocrite. You did the exact same thing a few days ago.
23:00:56 <ehird> AnMaster: I know I did - and it irritated you, but its just amusing me
23:01:02 <ehird> I can trivially ignore the topic.
23:01:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ignore that rant.
23:01:19 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | yes.
23:01:24 <oerjan> optbot is wise beyond measure
23:01:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, the issue is ehird refuse to explain himself when he said something wrong
23:01:51 <AnMaster> tars have nothing to do with the issue mentioned
23:01:56 <AnMaster> in fact bundles are a good idea
23:02:01 <AnMaster> they are not not related to tars
23:02:13 <AnMaster> and ehird will never know I like the idea of bundles
23:02:50 -!- AnMaster has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I actually think bundles are a good idea. I just don't see what they have to do with *.tar.
23:03:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, would you please tell ehird to read topic :) I think he may change his point of view if he does
23:04:12 <oerjan> dobbeltmoral er dobbelt så bra som vanlig moral...
23:04:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, I'm not sure I would agree :P
23:04:33 <ehird> psygnisfive: is AnMaster whining about how immature i am
23:04:54 <oerjan> AnMaster: you agree with your actions :/
23:05:32 <oerjan> oh no, i just dragged myself into this mess
23:05:44 * oerjan goes hiding under a rock
23:06:03 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I was even agreeing bundles are a good idea.
23:06:05 <fizzie> Oh, and "passeli" is in fact Finnish.
23:06:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, you should update the wikipedia pag then :)
23:06:19 <oerjan> fizzie: i noticed when i googled
23:06:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: i already did
23:07:00 <oerjan> although the g _is_ silent
23:07:52 <fizzie> "Passeli" is also a "TV-shop" advertised program for handling something accounting-related, never been quite sure what.
23:09:15 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, are you too ignoring me for no reason whatsoever?
23:09:24 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and did you get ssh thing to work?
23:09:40 <fizzie> In Finnish 'passeli' is a bit colloquial, though.
23:09:44 <psygnisfive> i accidentally killed my ichat connection so i had no way to control anything visually
23:09:50 <psygnisfive> so i couldn't configure my router and stuff
23:09:51 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, well thanks, just to inform you: I like the idea of bundles. I just don't see how they are related to *.tar
23:10:11 <psygnisfive> so i had to figure out how to ssh and get it working so that i could start ichat again
23:10:13 <oerjan> fizzie: it still has more google hits than "passelig". granted, that would also include misspellings of the latter.
23:10:23 <psygnisfive> ok now to just figure out the port forwarding for IRC
23:10:27 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, so could you enlighten me on what ehird meant with that?
23:10:56 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, because he refuse to answer
23:11:37 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you owe me a favour if this works. You said that yourself :P
23:12:16 <fizzie> oerjan: The two first hits in Google-search "passeli" with language=Finnish are related to that program; the next two are names of shops; the fifth one is using "passeli" in the sv:lagom sense.
23:12:32 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, something like: -L 1234:irc.freenode.net:6667
23:12:40 <AnMaster> then connect to 1234 on localhost
23:14:03 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, well do me one favour then, Ask ehird to read the topic
23:14:23 <psygnisfive> ehird anmaster wants you to read the topic.
23:14:34 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, it is very important
23:14:50 <oerjan> <ehird> ood. Often used as answer to the question "how are you?".
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23:15:21 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, looks like it worked ^
23:15:24 <oerjan> "sånn passe" can be use for that too, although it's more negative, essentially "so so"
23:15:58 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, or maybe not, looks like you connected from *.edu
23:16:07 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, so you actually didn't use the forwarded port
23:16:53 <psygnisfive> SSH into my remote machine with -L ~ ... yes?
23:16:54 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, http://rafb.net/p/MF57LR46.html
23:19:32 -!- psygnisf_ has joined.
23:20:04 <AnMaster> psygnisf_, that one is connected using direct connection
23:20:29 <psygnisfive> i need to figure out how to specify the outport on this damn client
23:20:55 <AnMaster> psygnisf_, you need to connect to *localhost* using the first argument of -L
23:21:11 <AnMaster> you don't want "irc.freenode.net" anywhere
23:21:40 <AnMaster> you want to connect to localhost:1234 in my example
23:21:47 <AnMaster> and for ssh something like -L 1234:irc.freenode.net:6667
23:21:57 -!- psygnis__ has joined.
23:22:09 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
23:22:11 <ehird> psygnis__: Bitches don't know 'bout mah IRC forwarding
23:22:19 -!- psygnis__ has changed nick to psygnisfive.
23:22:19 <AnMaster> psygnis__, now tell ehird to really really read the topic
23:23:02 <AnMaster> psygnisf_, or just post this line: "AnMaster says he thinks bundles are a _good_ idea. He just don't see what they have to do with *.tar"
23:23:30 <psygnisfive> now how can i get my remote machine to port forward to multiple places XD
23:23:33 <ehird> i am not going to read the topic.
23:23:47 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, just post what I said then
23:23:47 <oerjan> "AnMaster says he thinks bundles are a _good_ idea. He just don't see what they have to do with *.tar"
23:24:11 <AnMaster> so saying I hate everything about OS X is plain wrong
23:25:01 <ehird> oerjan: tell him he's pathetic for hiring slave labor to try and talk to me, please
23:25:07 <ehird> and don't point out the irony in that
23:25:48 * oerjan swats both ehird and AnMaster ----###
23:26:08 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you see that ehird is silly now?
23:26:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh tell ehird he is a hypocrite then
23:26:16 * oerjan also swats psygnisfive on the suspicion he'll like it ----###
23:26:20 <AnMaster> since he did the same just a few days ago
23:26:44 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you got one client too many
23:30:17 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, conjecture: channel activity will go down when ehird ignores and I go to sleep
23:30:57 <AnMaster> your highlight made me turn backl
23:33:22 <oerjan> so if we keep mentioning AnMaster all night he won't get any sleep?
23:33:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, wrong, I got a threshold
23:34:24 <AnMaster> I will fall asleep reading this last fantasy book on over 760 pages
23:34:25 <oerjan> "1001 ways of annoying teenagers"
23:34:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is what ehird read obviously yeah
23:35:02 <oerjan> oh you're a teenager too? figures.
23:35:05 <psygnisfive> Way 1: Mention their age. Works especially well if they're 13, and live in the UK.
23:35:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, and "almost 19" doesn't really count
23:35:36 <psygnisfive> about the language thing i was talking about?
23:36:01 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, "make a language based on it"
23:36:06 <oerjan> eigh_teen_, nine_teen_, what's not to count about that
23:36:34 <AnMaster> psygnisf_, it should also have first class functions
23:36:45 <AnMaster> if possible make it functional
23:36:52 <oerjan> it should have first function classes
23:37:11 <AnMaster> psygnisf_, hits firsts on psy<tab>
23:37:28 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Connection timed out).
23:37:52 <psygnisfive> the freenode server just realized it wasn't getting a connection
23:37:57 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, so now tab will work
23:38:29 <psygnisfive> i wonder how a scope indicator would work tho..
23:38:37 <oerjan> "first function classes" is not entirely devoid of google hits
23:38:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw the book I'm reading is called "Brisinger", a name that already sounds like fantasy doesn't it
23:39:00 <oerjan> psygnisfive: i said there were hits
23:39:34 <AnMaster> magic, dragon, swords, improbable geologic and climate, (who would put a forest right next to a desert like that... on the map on the inside of the cover)
23:39:44 <AnMaster> and really the areodynamics for dragons make no sense
23:39:58 <psygnisfive> since "first function class" is a subset of "first function classes"
23:41:15 <oerjan> Brisinger und brisinger
23:41:36 <AnMaster> the first two books were actually quite good
23:41:41 <AnMaster> and now I'm really heading to bed
23:42:14 <oerjan> i quantify indicator scope nominations
23:43:32 <psygnisfive> riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.
23:43:53 <oerjan> Three quarks for Muster Mark!
23:45:09 <oerjan> and that's just about what i know of Finnegan'?s Wake
23:47:25 <oerjan> what the heck were quantifier scope indicators anyway?
23:48:03 <oerjan> my mague vemory tries to trigger
23:48:37 <oerjan> and is there a connection to delimited continuations?
23:49:04 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but you flew around and tried to hit the other guy.
23:49:26 <oerjan> he just blew into my path
23:51:33 <oerjan> That little thing at the back of the mouth which no one remembers the name of..
23:52:09 <Asztal> what exactly does optbot use to generate topics?
23:52:27 <oerjan> the famous X-D program
23:52:33 <ihope> It uses a guy who's laughing because his eyes are doing something that's topologically impossible.
23:52:40 <Asztal> I assumed it was getting the longest common substring of recent messages, or something :)
23:52:41 <oerjan> ihope: how did she get in there?
23:52:42 <ihope> Eyes do not intersect.
23:52:55 <ehird> Asztal: random sentence from the entire backlog
23:52:58 <ihope> oerjan: how did Uvula get into the back of the mouth?
23:53:02 <ehird> from late 2002 - before optbot was put online
23:53:11 <ehird> late 2002 - early 2003 thx to fizzie
23:53:21 <oerjan> i remember, she had none
23:55:16 <oerjan> ah that explains why it's called uvular consonants
23:55:35 <ihope> I didn't know there were such things as uvular consonants.
23:55:37 <oerjan> oh dear, and palate...
23:56:33 <oerjan> all this time i've been thinking those were just weird linguistic terms
23:56:42 <oerjan> but they're anatomical
23:56:53 <oerjan> i guess dental should have given me a clue
23:57:15 * oerjan checks what alveola means
23:58:01 <oerjan> um that doesn't fit, it's in the lungs?
23:59:03 <ihope> So an alveolar trill is when the tongue vibrates against the lungs?
23:59:07 <oerjan> ah it's alveolar ridge
00:04:44 <ihope> Hmm, so that fancy voiceless alveolar lateral fricative, found in Welsh words like "Llywellyn", sounds a lot like a soft "th".
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00:49:43 <psygnisfive> the voiceless alveolar lateral fricative is basically just an l, without being voiced, and very h-like
00:50:17 <psygnisfive> its almost lisp-ish if you're not familiar with it.
01:00:44 <ihope> psygnisfive: that's why I said it's a lot like a "th" rather than being one.
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05:49:04 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Abelboobied indeed..
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06:27:16 <psygnisfive> not in a way that you can iterate over them, necessarily
06:31:01 <psygnisfive> but in that you can test membership in a type just like you'd test membership in a set
06:40:23 <CO2Games> a language based around halloween commands
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06:46:08 <CO2Games> No wait I've got a better idea
06:46:19 <CO2Games> A language based around a couldron
06:48:16 <CO2Games> a package which holds the ingredients in order as in the header
06:48:28 <ae5ir> something like chef?
06:48:52 <ae5ir> http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/chef.html
06:50:31 <ae5ir> if you're going to name it Cauldron, be sure to spell it right :)
06:50:53 <ae5ir> but I'm intrigued.
06:51:11 <CO2Games> need a purpose for the pot though
06:51:14 <ae5ir> as I've been fond of the premise of chef
06:51:25 <ae5ir> execution notwithstanding
06:52:04 <CO2Games> See, I'm thinking two stacks and two shelves
06:52:14 <CO2Games> and then a readonly stack called the box
06:52:36 <CO2Games> one stack will just be general purpose
06:53:03 <CO2Games> pushing to it outputs to the user, popping inputs from the user
06:53:33 <CO2Games> And the end result is whatever is in the pot
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06:54:59 <CO2Games> like on posix systems, the pot could start out empty and cold, and on windows it could be greasy and disgusting
06:55:26 <CO2Games> and if the pot ever goes over 255 on posix, ingredients that go into it evaporate
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06:55:50 <CO2Games> and then you can drain the pot too
06:56:01 <CO2Games> but on windows before you start you have to clean the pot
06:56:21 <CO2Games> then you need to rinse the shit out of it
06:56:29 <CO2Games> so you don't get sick from the soap
06:56:51 <CO2Games> and if you don't rinse it enough, you get sick at the end of the program and get an access violation
06:57:08 <CO2Games> then on both systems you have to make sure the water is clean
06:57:28 <CO2Games> so you have to either use a filter, investigate, or just hope you don't vomit
06:58:45 <CO2Games> and you always have to wash out the pot after draining unless you want oil from the previous contents
06:59:17 <CO2Games> and then you can cause yourself to vomit
06:59:50 <CO2Games> if you use your fist theirs a chance that you choke instead and that deletes the executable
07:00:03 <CO2Games> and if you use a fork you could stab yourself
07:00:16 <CO2Games> and if you use a knife you will always stab yourself
07:00:24 <CO2Games> and if you use a spoon you always choke
07:00:41 <CO2Games> and if you use a spork, you will either stab yourself or choke
07:00:51 <ae5ir> so I guess you can overengineer a language to death
07:01:17 <CO2Games> and if you use a foot you will always explode and that deletes the entire directory of the program
07:01:37 <CO2Games> I mean c4 with an electrical timer in it
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07:49:40 <oklopol> ehird: don't worry i typo "finnish" to "swedish" all the time.
07:49:52 <oklopol> slereah: what if they're infinite?
07:53:15 <oklopol> also, i was gonna ask you, ehird, whether you changed your nick back to tusho for a while some time ago, then i realized ehird is, in fact, your old nick, so, err, i think you did
07:53:25 <oklopol> but not back to tusho, but back to ehird
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09:12:20 <optbot> ais523: they're actually disjoint, i was confused by no ^$ or similar around k and s
09:17:06 <oklopol> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
09:17:31 <ais523> but I'll be back considerably later today (my time)
09:21:08 <oklopol> muture has once again been postponed a bit, since i read pretty much all my free time
09:21:29 <ais523> also, I like the topic
09:21:42 <oklopol> the ideas i had for it are basically automation of dynamic programming
09:22:59 <oklopol> but that's basically just having a memoization structure where you memoize based on input and whether you minimize or maximize, or just take the result
09:24:21 <oklopol> so if you want to minimize f(n) = f(n-1) | f(n-2), you would check the memoization table for (MIN,f,n-1) and (MIN,f,n2), or just evaluate those if they aren't found, and then take the smaller one as the global minimum
09:24:52 <ais523> maybe you could do memoization by name?
09:25:15 <ais523> that sounds much like what you're doing
09:25:31 <ais523> I mean, you memoize instructions which are more complicated than just functions
09:25:38 <ais523> so you memoize min(f(n-1))
09:25:51 <oklopol> ("f(n-1) | f(n-2)" means to take, nondeterministically, either of these evaluations)
09:26:05 <oklopol> yeah, that's why the parens
09:26:31 <oklopol> i still don't know what you mean by memoization by name
09:26:46 <ais523> well, call-by-name is a sort of imperative version of laziness
09:26:59 <ais523> instead of passing the function an argument, you tell it what the argument looks like
09:27:04 <ais523> you can take this to extremes, though
09:27:36 <oklopol> but i will actually need the value that's gotten when the memoization is done
09:27:36 <ais523> as an example, imagine a simple imperative language with an eval statement
09:27:54 <ais523> and instead of writing f(g(x)); sub f(y) {return y;}
09:28:07 <ais523> you write f("g(x)"); sub f(y) {return eval(y);}
09:28:18 <ais523> so you memoise by the instructions you're passing around
09:29:01 <oklopol> where's the memoization in that? i'm still missing your point i'm afraid
09:29:03 <ais523> so in this case you optimise min(f(n)) where f(n) = f(n-1) | f(n-2) into fmin(n) where fmin(n) = min(fmin(n-1), fmin(n-2))
09:29:19 <ais523> but you just write it as memoisation of min(f(x))
09:29:29 <ais523> which you can memoise as if it were a function
09:29:50 <ais523> I think that was your original point, though
09:29:52 <ais523> in which case, I agree
09:30:21 <oklopol> oh, you mean that the actual min(f(n)) could be memoized, f(n) unevaluated
09:30:31 <oklopol> that's exactly what i'm doing, yes :P
09:30:53 <ais523> well, with that particular definition of f it all ends up equal to min(f(0),f(1)) or whatever your base cases are
09:31:05 <ais523> but that's deliberately missing the point...
09:32:26 <oklopol> but you could have stuff like f(n) = ( f(n - 1) | f(n - 3) + 1 | f(n - 5) + 3 ) + ( f(n-2) - 1 | f (n-4) * 1.1 )
09:32:36 <oklopol> and you could minimize that
09:33:30 <ais523> hmm... muture is a bit of a hyper-Prolog, but actually implementable
09:33:30 <ais523> are you going to use all this optimisation stuff to implement program flow like loops too?
09:33:49 <oklopol> i haven't thought much about program flow tbh
09:34:07 <oklopol> i'm aiming for somewhat domain specific a language
09:34:14 <oklopol> you cannot define new types
09:34:25 <ais523> well, you don't really need them
09:34:28 <oklopol> and it's even discouraged to define new functions, except when you're minimizing them.
09:34:41 <oklopol> everything is done with list operations
09:34:57 <oklopol> which are quite interesting, and eso
09:35:25 <oklopol> stuff like /list == 5, which tests "for all x in list: x == 5"
09:35:42 <oklopol> and \list == 5 for "for at least one x in list: x == 5"
09:36:08 <ais523> well, if you implement lists and tuples of arbitrary types
09:36:10 <ais523> then you basically have a sufficiently rich type system anyway for a declarative language
09:36:16 <oklopol> and then explicit quantification, doing this for lists representing trees or graphs, and // and \\ for doing this for the second level of a nested list, etc
09:36:32 <ais523> you're going to run out of chars for comments at this rate
09:36:40 <oklopol> i only have dynamically typed lists, and integers
09:36:59 <ais523> so lists and tuples are the same type?
09:37:07 <oklopol> i wasn't gonna use // for comments anyway
09:37:53 <oklopol> i don't see a need for tuples really
09:38:04 <oklopol> integers + links between them, that's all i need
09:39:12 <oklopol> i have these infinite numbers, kinda
09:39:19 <oklopol> that are greater than any integer
09:39:38 <oklopol> so when you maximize, and you get a number like that, you can ignore any number with a smaller amount of infinities
09:39:40 <ais523> are these the same as the mathematical infinities, or a new okloset of numbers?
09:40:00 <oklopol> of course, not mathematical infinites, just numbers that are greater than numbers that aren't pseudo-infinite
09:40:03 <ais523> hmm... you could have numbers in base infinity
09:40:24 <ais523> so 4:0:0 > 3:99999999999999999999999999:999999999999999999999999999999
09:40:32 <ais523> and each of the parts is bignums, and you can have as many as you like
09:40:44 <oklopol> yes, can you see the use of those?
09:41:35 <oklopol> if you're maximizing a quantity, you can kinda create a goal that's strictly higher up than anything one could've achieved without reaching the goal, by giving a pseudo-infinite point for it
09:41:44 <ais523> well, there are several uses
09:41:50 <ais523> it would be good in the chess program I wrote once, for instance
09:42:02 <ais523> (btw Muture should create brilliantly short programs for playing games like chess)
09:42:08 <ais523> also, for error conditions, too
09:42:33 <oklopol> yes, the list operations should be extensive enough to make most rules trivial to express
09:42:44 <oklopol> and the rest is basically creating the local heuristics
09:42:52 <oklopol> and maximizing or minimizing
09:43:53 <ais523> if something goes wrong
09:43:58 <oklopol> the pseudo-infinities are there because otherwise you end up thinking "okay, if i can get a checkmate here, then i definitely should do it... so, what is the maximum sum the other heuristics can give, let's calculate..."
09:44:10 <ais523> then setting a lexicogrpahically high or low value could either report or hide the error
09:44:19 <ais523> as in, -1:0 if you want paths that error to be ignored
09:44:27 <ais523> and 1:0 if you want parhs that error to always be reported
09:45:48 <oklopol> i'm also thinking you could give the program a hint of what maximum is "good enough", this way you could use something like you just explained, and also, you could tell it 0 is the least amount of errors there can be in a result or something
09:46:16 <ais523> well, hinting is really easy
09:46:17 <oklopol> because sometimes it may not be trivial to see all functions that constitute the sum that is to be minimized always give nonnegative results
09:46:43 <ais523> well, I need a for-all-x in there
09:46:46 <ais523> but you know what I mean
09:47:14 <oklopol> umm just \x there actually
09:47:20 <ais523> and probably I've got the syntax for min and max wrong
09:48:04 <oklopol> i'm not sure what max(f(/x)) means, the distinction of / and \ makes sense only for checking whether "all", or "some", of a list satisfy a predicate
09:48:37 <ais523> you'll have to post a partial spec some time so I can look at it
09:49:02 <ais523> except that I'm going in about 10 mins
09:49:12 <ais523> and won't be back until much later today
09:49:21 <ais523> (I'm sneaking in a bit of IRC before class)
09:49:28 <ais523> nothing, I'm really busy in RL
09:49:29 <oklopol> ais523: i see, i'll *write* a partial spec some time so you can look at it.
09:50:10 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and should I learn Ocaml or Haskell first?
09:50:13 <ais523> AnMaster: I really don't have time for much esoprogramming atm apart from my University project
09:50:19 <AnMaster> I plan one of them after I finish learning scheme
09:50:23 <oklopol> i've only written programs in muture, no speccing has been done
09:50:26 <ais523> also, learn both, but you'll probably get into Ocaml more easily
09:50:46 <ais523> Haskell is very weird until you're used to it, even if you know how functional programming works
09:51:00 <ais523> but once you're used to it you'll realise everything else is a special case of Haskell, more or less
09:51:11 * ais523 ponders a Haskell to Underload compiler
09:51:24 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and, call/cc is an abbreviation headache obviously
09:51:37 <ais523> well, the official name is call-with-current-continuation
09:51:40 <ais523> but that takes too long to type
09:51:53 <ais523> maybe it should just be called c, like in Unlambda and Underlambda
09:51:59 <AnMaster> ais523, well that is not true really, in reality it means "headache"
09:52:13 <oklopol> ais523: abbreviation *for* headache, i think
09:52:38 <oklopol> ais523: missed it, i think
09:52:40 <ais523> well, it's basically just a nonlocal goto, except that it stores the call and data stacks in the continuation
09:52:50 <oklopol> because you clearly cannot read AnMaster's mind when it comes to "for"
09:52:51 <AnMaster> ais523, I understand the theory
09:53:02 <AnMaster> it still is hard to think about
09:53:18 <AnMaster> macros are not as bad, but still pretty bad too
09:53:35 <ais523> well, if call/cc doesn't hurt your brain, either you're doing something wrong or you're oklopol
09:53:47 <ais523> but even though it hurts my brain slightly I still know how to use it
09:53:58 <AnMaster> well hm I guess one have to learn by trying
09:54:26 <oklopol> AnMaster: call/cc is pretty simple if you don't return multiple times. used as a fast way to return it's just exception control without autopilot
09:54:46 <ais523> oklopol: well yes, but that's boring
09:54:47 <AnMaster> oklopol, sure but the semantics are hard too IMO
09:54:56 <ais523> I plan to implement pretty much all of Feather with multireturning call/cc
09:55:36 <oklopol> ais523: yes, very boring, that's why it's useful to emphasize the difference
09:55:45 <AnMaster> ais523, btw there exists some experimental lisp variant that compiles into erlang bytecode, can't find the link atm
09:55:53 <ais523> well, there are two sorts of call/cc
09:55:55 <AnMaster> but I heard some ppl talk of it in #erlang the other day
09:56:00 <ais523> jumping downwards once, which is the boring case
09:56:06 <ais523> and jumping upwards some time, which is more interesting
09:56:17 <ais523> and the case that causes implementors nightmares
09:56:28 <ais523> you can jump down multiple times and it's just like a break; statement in C, not confusing at al
09:56:31 <AnMaster> ais523, the first case is like longjmp more or less?
09:56:48 <ais523> jumping up is like longjmp which magically restores all the stack
09:57:03 <ais523> that got destroyed between the call/cc and the continuation being used
09:57:12 <ais523> I have to go now, anyway
09:57:20 <ais523> but I'll be back in 7 or 8 hours or so
09:57:29 <AnMaster> the main issue is the semantics of it. I mean the way it seems to replace an expression with something else... I don't know how to describe it properly
09:58:11 <oklopol> AnMaster: try the unlambda page, oerjan created a system for representing it
09:58:27 <oklopol> well, i created the exact same system when i implemented subtle cough
09:58:28 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm? the unlambda esowiki page?
09:58:44 <oklopol> AnMaster: The Unlambda Page
09:59:15 <oklopol> i would google, but i don't like clicking the browser open
09:59:21 <AnMaster> If you don't mean http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unlambda or any of the links at the bottom
09:59:52 <AnMaster> www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/ ?
10:01:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, any specific part of the page? Or just in general? I never really looked closely at unlambda before
10:02:22 <oklopol> but the continuation part, search for continuation
10:03:09 <oklopol> well it wasn't, but should've been :P
10:03:59 <oklopol> the part with the continuations isn't there anymore
10:04:14 <AnMaster> http://www.madore.org/~david/computers/callcc.html <-- that was linked?
10:04:17 <oklopol> btw, i need to go raed now
10:04:25 <oklopol> yes, i haven't looked at that
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11:31:19 <ais523> yay, I got a 3-hour break
11:31:21 <ais523> they were meant to be teaching everyone VHDL
11:31:27 <ais523> AnMaster: that's a good guide to call/cc
11:31:37 <ais523> and as for Unlambda, it's probably the best functional esolang out there atm
11:31:47 <ais523> most esolangs tend to imperative, as it's what people are used to
11:32:11 <ais523> it's an unusual paradigm
11:32:16 <AnMaster> hm may want to try it some day
11:32:42 <ais523> it can be emulated on software, of course, but you're suppose to compile it to hardware for the best experience
11:32:54 <ais523> it's not really a language you write in to start with, it's a language you compile into
11:32:58 <AnMaster> ais523, well that require resources
11:33:07 <ais523> software simulation is cheaper
11:33:32 <AnMaster> ais523, so what language do you use for writing the stuff you compile into VHDL?
11:33:44 <ais523> well, I write it directly atm
11:33:56 <ais523> apparently some weird nonstandard dialect of C++ is popular though
11:34:08 <ais523> not many things compile into VHDL
11:34:12 <AnMaster> also you said unusual paradigm. How (apart from compiling to hardware)?
11:34:12 <ais523> even though it's crying out for it
11:34:18 <ais523> apparently the compilation is normally done by humans
11:34:25 <ais523> AnMaster: it's event-driven and parallel
11:34:29 <ais523> assignments never happen immediately
11:34:32 <ais523> they all have time delays
11:34:45 <ais523> the control flow is such that commands only run in response to a particular thing changing
11:34:50 <AnMaster> ais523, does that mean you have to handle taking care of timing yourself or?
11:34:58 <ais523> if you write a <= b + c
11:35:07 <ais523> it means "one delta after either b or c changes, set a to their sum"
11:35:22 <ais523> where a delta is the shortest unit of time, it's infinitesimally long
11:36:01 <ais523> if you're simulating real hardware, which VHDL is often used for, you would say a <= b + c AFTER 20 ns
11:36:02 <AnMaster> yes "short" sounds more normal to use there
11:36:20 <ais523> "infinitesimally short" doesn't make sesne though
11:36:31 <AnMaster> the first one sounded somewhat like event driven GUI programming in OO
11:36:58 <ais523> it's a bit like event driven programming, but sufficiently different that it isn't really a helpful analogy
11:37:16 <ais523> to make things more confusing, you can put blocks of imperative code in, which trigger on certain variables changing
11:37:17 <AnMaster> (My experience of event driven programming is mainly from GTK# + C#)
11:37:26 <ais523> but you're not supposed to except in certain strict circumstances
11:37:31 <ais523> or the result is legal but doesn't compile
11:37:51 <AnMaster> ais523, normally legal == compiles, except for any compiler bugs
11:38:02 <ais523> well, you can run it on an interpreter
11:38:14 <ais523> generally speaking one company will write imperative VHDL
11:38:31 <ais523> to say what the program should do
11:38:48 <ais523> and another company will compile it by hand to VHDL that compiles to hardware
11:39:05 <AnMaster> compiling a language to itself is something I find very strange
11:39:24 <ais523> if VHDL wasn't so popular it would definitely be an esolang
11:39:59 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you handle setjmp/longjmp in gcc-bf btw?
11:40:13 <ais523> well, storing IP is easy
11:40:21 <ais523> for storing stack pointer I record the literal value of the pointer
11:40:29 <ais523> and the only other thing that normally needs to be stored is frame pointer
11:40:33 <ais523> but I have a hardware stack of frame pointers
11:40:43 <ais523> and I can deduce which one to use by looking at where the stack pointer ended up
11:40:48 <ais523> so mostly it's done in "hardware"
11:40:52 <AnMaster> err hardware stack? where did brainfuck get that?
11:41:01 <ais523> I use part of the tape
11:41:15 <ais523> it's hardware from gcc's point of view
11:41:25 <ais523> because it isn't mentioned anywhere in the asm
11:41:53 <AnMaster> ais523, will this allow C++ too? And other languages supported by gcc?
11:42:08 <AnMaster> for C++ at least you would need a few more runtime libraries I guess
11:42:17 <ais523> the main problem with C++ atm is exception handling
11:42:20 <ais523> because gcc does that weirdly
11:42:38 <ais523> well, using routines which gcc compiling C doesn't use anywhere
11:42:41 <ais523> so I'd have to implement them
11:42:49 <ais523> it involves changing the calling conventions and everything
11:43:01 <AnMaster> ais523, those routines would logically have no use in C
11:43:08 <AnMaster> since C doesn't need exception handling like C++
11:43:23 <ais523> but that means a C compiler needs more work to become a C++ compiler
11:43:26 <ais523> even if it's based on gcc
11:43:30 <AnMaster> thus it doesn't seem strange that the routines aren't used for C
11:43:48 <AnMaster> that would need porting boehm-gc I suspect
11:43:59 <ais523> gcj is likely to have similar problems to g++
11:44:00 <AnMaster> since boehm-gc is very platform specific (I looked at it's code)
11:44:10 <ais523> and boehm-gc would probably fail, I expect
11:44:18 <ais523> because pointer values are too plausible in gcc-bf
11:44:33 <ais523> I mean, plausible values for things that aren't pointers
11:44:42 <ais523> you could use the same technique with knowledge of data types
11:44:45 <ais523> which gcj has, in theory
11:44:51 <ais523> but it would be quite the porting effort
11:44:52 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc boehm-gc is used for gcj. And I read large parts of the boehm-gc code so I know what I speak of. It needs porting for different platforms and different cpus.
11:45:23 <ais523> I was talking about reimplementing gcj to use something which wasn't boehm-gc but worked similarly
11:45:32 <ais523> I think it would be possible, but I also think I can't be bothered
11:46:18 <ais523> I don't know about that, haven't looked at the code
11:46:24 <ais523> I doubt it would be hard, but don't know the details
11:48:40 <AnMaster> ais523, btw cfunge heap memory usage have gone down according to valgrind --tool=massif by almost 1 MB during the last week
11:49:02 <ais523> have you been trying to reduce it deliberately?
11:49:04 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | yeah I figured that like 0.1 seconds after saying it.
11:49:18 <AnMaster> ais523, I have been trying to reduce overhead by lots of small malloc() yes
11:49:22 <ais523> also, the way malloc normally works on Unices, the memory usage is equal to the highest value it's ever been
11:49:30 <ais523> unless you deliberately give back the memory
11:49:36 <ais523> to the OS, rather than just to malloc
11:49:48 <AnMaster> ais523, I had around half an mb in malloc book keeping data overhead according to valgrind
11:49:51 <ais523> and that needs malloc to do a huge amount of work shuffling things round so it isn't normally worth it
11:50:01 <AnMaster> now just around 100 kb at most I think
11:50:27 <AnMaster> ais523, I use memory pools with free list for some stuff now, with no per-object overhead
11:50:48 <ais523> heh, so you're doing what malloc does, but by hand?
11:50:53 <AnMaster> I originally developed the code for something else
11:50:55 <ais523> maybe it would be worth looking at a malloc replacement
11:51:05 <ais523> there's more than one implementation of malloc around
11:51:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I need to malloc lots of object by the same size
11:51:17 <ais523> IIRC the Firefox people spent ages comparing different mallocs
11:51:20 <ais523> to decide which one was best
11:51:37 <ais523> AnMaster: and yes, seeing as you know more about the situation than malloc does you're likely to have better results
11:51:54 <AnMaster> ais523, and I can have no object overhead
11:52:26 <AnMaster> ais523, http://bzr.kuonet.org/cfunge/trunk/annotate/432?file_id=cfunge_mempool.c-20081005091327-4dhg0fw6swhlu950-1
11:53:19 <AnMaster> ais523, the union trick I have fizzie to thank for
11:53:58 <AnMaster> ais523, so what do you think? :)
11:54:04 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm a bit disappointed really because cfunge has nothing to compete against
11:54:14 <ais523> so I can't tell exactly how well these crazy tricks are doing
11:54:20 <ais523> but I have nothing to compare it to
11:54:26 <AnMaster> ais523, I profiled before and after the change
11:54:29 <ais523> so I don't really know how impressive or otherwise it is
11:54:36 <ais523> comparing to yourself works, I suppose...
11:54:45 <AnMaster> execution time on glibc: No significant diff
11:54:57 <AnMaster> memory usage: around half an mb saved
11:55:15 <AnMaster> the other half I saved before. I was allocating too much in one place
11:55:23 <AnMaster> so I had dead memory at the end of some mallocs
11:55:35 <AnMaster> that alone saved almost one mb
11:55:46 <ais523> also it's worth knowing that different mallocs have different favourite sizes to allocate
11:55:54 <ais523> normally it's slightly less than a power of 2, though
11:57:24 <AnMaster> ais523, well here I need 56 bytes on amd64 with 64-bit funge
11:57:44 <AnMaster> the exact size will vary across different compile options/platforms
11:57:52 <AnMaster> ais523, also for glibc: http://www.gnu.org/software/libtool/manual/libc/Efficiency-and-Malloc.html#Efficiency-and-Malloc
11:57:53 <ais523> well that's just less than 64, but it might be not quite just less enough
11:58:13 <ais523> but it's nice to have documentation about what's right for a particular platform
11:58:32 <AnMaster> ais523, well I alloc 4096 objects here for each superblock
11:58:52 <ais523> ah, that says that glibc malloc doesn't care about the power of 2 thing
11:58:58 <ais523> which is also good to know
11:59:08 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and for this size of allocations it use mmap() too
11:59:17 <AnMaster> I checked using the mallinfo function
11:59:19 <ais523> so the OS deals with the allocation
11:59:26 <ais523> which is probably the right thing to do here
11:59:32 <ais523> so the memory can be given back
11:59:49 <AnMaster> on my system I end up allocating sizeof(memorypool_data) pages
12:00:14 <AnMaster> I think that at least, unless I got the units confused somewhere
12:01:13 <AnMaster> ais523, also I don't give memory back, since I reuse any free stuff, and test runs on a varity of funge programs indicated that at no point would it be a good idea to give back memory
12:01:37 <AnMaster> I guess for a huge self-overwriting-with-space program that could be a good idea
12:01:43 <AnMaster> however I consider that rather contrived
12:02:18 <AnMaster> since most such programs tend to be short ;P
12:02:55 <AnMaster> ais523, however I believe the code is general enough to be useful elsewhere too
12:03:14 <AnMaster> in fact I first wrote it for something else, then latter decided "this may work well for cfunge too"
12:04:06 <AnMaster> ais523, currently on my system for a mycology run: $1 = {arena = 139264, ordblks = 6, smblks = 2, hblks = 19, hblkhd = 7122944, usmblks = 0, fsmblks = 64, uordblks = 36864, fordblks = 102400, keepcost = 100256}
12:04:08 <AnMaster> http://www.gnu.org/software/libtool/manual/libc/Statistics-of-Malloc.html
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12:06:39 <ais523> [12:01] <ais523> if it's a bad idea, then no need to worry about how to do it
12:06:39 <ais523> [12:01] <ais523> ofc now I'll have to invent a funge program where it is, just to annoy you...
12:06:39 <ais523> [12:03] <ais523> hi ehird
12:06:48 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> I guess for a huge self-overwriting-with-space program that could be a good idea
12:06:48 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> however I consider that rather contrived
12:06:48 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> since most such programs tend to be short ;P
12:06:53 <ais523> I got caught on the wrong side of a netsplit...
12:06:56 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, however I believe the code is general enough to be useful elsewhere too
12:06:56 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> in fact I first wrote it for something else, then latter decided "this may work well for cfunge too"
12:07:03 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, currently on my system for a mycology run: $1 = {arena = 139264, ordblks = 6, smblks = 2, hblks = 19, hblkhd = 7122944, usmblks = 0, fsmblks = 64, uordblks = 36864, fordblks = 102400, keepcost = 100256}
12:07:03 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> http://www.gnu.org/software/libtool/manual/libc/Statistics-of-Malloc.html
12:07:03 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> for how to interpret that
12:07:03 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> and it was at the end
12:07:45 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from ais523: 0.87 second(s)
12:07:45 <AnMaster> * Received a CTCP PONG from ais523
12:07:56 <ais523> AnMaster: it was a joke...
12:08:30 <AnMaster> NOTICE <sender-of-ctcp> :\01PING <parameters>\01
12:08:52 <AnMaster> probably known as "nctcp" command in client
12:09:11 <ais523> AnMaster: I know how to send CTCP replies
12:09:13 <ais523> I've done it by hand before
12:10:37 <AnMaster> ais523, and giving back the memory is kind of pointless, since freed memory is recycled before it tries allocating new at end
12:13:29 <fizzie> If you actually were worried about malloc overhead, you could do some somewhat hacky tricks to use raw sbrk() to add pages to your pools.
12:14:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, not really an issue with pools. The issue was when I used one malloc() per object allocated
12:14:17 <AnMaster> with the pools I get one malloc() for each allocated pool
12:15:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, since I had something like 65536 mallocs for mycology before
12:17:09 <AnMaster> valgrind now claims that in total cfunge does 1442 malloc() calls when running mycology
12:17:19 <AnMaster> don't have the exact count of the previous versiomn
12:18:21 <ehird> <oklopol> also, i was gonna ask you, ehird, whether you changed your nick back to tusho for a while some time ago, then i realized ehird is, in fact, your old nick, so, err, i think you did
12:18:25 <ehird> ehird -> tusho -> (just now) ehird
12:18:49 * ais523 has been ais523 ever since ais523 joined University
12:18:53 <ais523> and didn't really have a nick before then
12:19:00 * AnMaster have been same nick for ages too
12:19:20 <ais523> maybe you should be LanMaster, like oerjan suggested once IIRC
12:19:56 <ehird> I used to have a "real" nick, but I abandoned it because a) It's retarded b) I did stupid stuff under it (I got it when I was 8, abandoned when I was like 9 or 10)
12:20:08 <ehird> And no, I won't tell you it, because then you could google for my stupidity.
12:20:18 <ehird> (Or worse - recognize me)
12:20:35 <AnMaster> ehird, you met any of us back then?
12:20:47 <ehird> Not unless someone changed their name since then at least.
12:20:56 <ais523> it's very unlikely you met me in any case
12:20:57 <ehird> Oh, and my password used to be 'elliott'. :-P
12:21:02 <ais523> except possibly in real life by chance
12:21:10 <ais523> but we wouldn't have recognised each other then...
12:21:15 <ais523> probably not nowadays either
12:21:24 <ehird> ais523: "MY GOD! You're that INTERCAL guy!"
12:21:26 <fizzie> I used to write my IRC name "Fizzle", but then I think someone stole it or something and I had to switch to "Fizzie"; I'm not sure when I dropped the uppercase letter off.
12:21:33 <ehird> <you> "INTERCAL? Hm... I've heard of it..."
12:21:44 <ehird> <ehird> "IT'S VERY IMPORTANT. in the future YOU WILL MAINTAIN C-INTERCAL"
12:21:47 * ais523 wonders why only half of ehird's line beginning ais523 was higlighted
12:21:49 <ehird> <ehird> "AND KNOW ME ON IRC"
12:22:05 <ehird> <you> "[citation needed]"
12:22:14 <ehird> <ehird> "CITATIONS: [1] I AM 10 YEARS OLD."
12:22:20 <ehird> <you> "GOOD POINT." *walks away*
12:22:27 * ais523 struggles hard to remember the conversation
12:22:28 <ehird> AnMaster: 'in the past'
12:22:51 <ehird> ais523: yea well I had to wipe your mind didn't I
12:22:59 <ehird> can't let anyone know about my time travel abilities
12:24:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, well, I murdered 'nef'.
12:24:18 <ais523> that trick wouldn't work on me because my client leaves the tab open when kicked
12:24:19 <ehird> Now I control those logs.
12:24:54 <AnMaster> and I got local logs of course. And since I'm paranoid it is direct connected to a printer ;)
12:25:14 <ais523> somehow I didn't think so
12:25:18 <ehird> ais523: I honestly wouldn't be surprised.
12:25:29 <ais523> also, I have both local logs and ehird's bouncer's logs
12:25:38 <ais523> so that's 4 sources of logs
12:25:46 <AnMaster> ais523, however it could make sense for kernel log for a mission critical system
12:25:54 <ehird> i hope psybnc doesn't log /msgs
12:25:56 <AnMaster> in fact I think linux supports it
12:26:12 <ehird> psybnc only logs when you're disco'd
12:26:18 <ais523> ehird: it puts them in the private logs
12:26:27 <ais523> which I erase as soon as I've read them
12:26:39 <AnMaster> ais523, right I shall remember to be careful with what I say to you when you use the bnc
12:26:52 <ehird> AnMaster: totally not paranoid
12:26:52 <ais523> AnMaster: well my client would log them anyway...
12:27:00 <ehird> but AnMaster, you're right
12:27:02 <AnMaster> ais523, well but that would be local
12:27:06 <ehird> don't go telling him your stories of child abuse
12:27:09 <ehird> that would be dumb.
12:27:19 <ehird> AnMaster: IT WOULDN'T LOG
12:27:22 <AnMaster> ehird, well I never done that so how could I?
12:27:23 <ehird> it only logs when ais523's offline
12:27:24 <ais523> specifically, it only logs stuff that's sent in /msg when I'm not online
12:27:30 <ais523> and I erase it when I become online again
12:27:37 <AnMaster> someone could change that setting
12:27:44 <ehird> i'd have to modify the code
12:27:48 <ehird> i could login as ais523 now
12:27:54 <ais523> if you're paranoid enough ehird might have put a backdoor in when e recompile
12:27:56 <ehird> i control the bouncer logfile
12:28:07 <ehird> and so does ais523
12:28:10 <ehird> since we are both in sudoers
12:28:25 <ais523> I think AnMaster's right not to trust it
12:28:26 <ehird> AnMaster: its silly
12:28:30 <ehird> any system with a root user
12:28:35 <ehird> other than you, is completely insecure
12:28:37 <ais523> if he was going to send me data that needed to be completely secret from ehird for some reason
12:28:43 <ais523> not going via ehird's server would make sense
12:28:44 <AnMaster> ehird, oh just btw, I think bundles are a good idea, as I said yesterday :P
12:28:44 <ehird> no data at all can be private
12:29:11 <ehird> ais523: which I just test-initiated
12:29:14 <ehird> i'm not sure it'll work
12:29:16 <ehird> due to eso-std.org
12:29:44 <AnMaster> I block dcc since I tend to get a lot of dcc spam
12:30:10 <ais523> well, better still, what about I create a direct nick
12:30:14 <ais523> that doesn't bounce of ehird's server
12:30:22 <ais523> in addition to the indirect nick I normally use
12:30:29 <ehird> ais523_trade_secrets
12:30:42 <ehird> it goes through freenode anyway
12:30:52 <ehird> AnMaster: so who do you trust more
12:30:56 <ehird> freenode or me :-P
12:30:59 <ehird> don't answer that btw.
12:31:04 <ehird> but i wouldn't read private logs
12:31:19 <AnMaster> ehird, 1) they don't hate me like you do 2) no ssl indeed, but still a lot more communication to check
12:31:45 <ehird> AnMaster: 1) That is true. It is part of my personal vendetta against you to steal all your trade secrets.
12:31:46 <AnMaster> so freenode in fact, and I don't trust freenode very much
12:31:51 <ehird> Or flirting with ais523. I don't know what's so private.
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12:32:28 <ehird> ais523: call it ais523_911_was_an_inside_job
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12:33:00 <ais523> somehow I don't see how you would get the plain to crash from inside the tower...
12:33:06 <ais523> I'm pretty sure it came from outside
12:33:15 <ehird> ais523: WAKE UP SHEEPLE
12:34:08 <ais523> doing it like this isn't ideal because I get two #esoterics
12:34:18 <ais523> I think I'll leave ais523|direct connected but in no channels
12:34:24 <ais523> and you lot will just have to remember it exists
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12:34:29 <ehird> not communicating really private stuff over irc
12:34:35 <AnMaster> not an inside job, but in the investigation after they released too little information, making it look suspicious
12:34:38 <ehird> that's a retarded idea ever, who does that
12:34:46 <ehird> AnMaster: 911 WAS HALF OF AN INSIDE JOB
12:35:03 <AnMaster> ehird, rather the investigation was not well handled
12:35:07 <ehird> 911 WAS AN OUTSIDE JOB MADE TO LOOK LIKE AN INSIDE JOB BY THE DICTATORSHIP OF THE CHIMPERIOR!! CHIMPEACH!! WAKE UP SHEEPLE
12:35:21 <AnMaster> I don't think they intended it to look bad
12:36:32 <ais523> also, wrong channel, surely?
12:36:33 <AnMaster> like only releasing a few frames of the video showing the plane hit pentagon... And those frames didn't show it very well
12:36:35 <ehird> ^ best 9/11 conspiracy ever
12:36:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | G'luck!.
12:36:38 <optbot> ais523: nor indeed subroutines, i think it'd be pretty easy to write a forth without subroutines
12:37:20 <ehird> anyway, duh, the US government is incompetend
12:37:25 <ehird> so is my spelling apparently
12:37:28 <ehird> but that's not a great revelation
12:37:33 <ehird> (the incompetence ... not my spelling)
12:38:16 <ais523> heh, that reminds me of that Muphry's Law you were telling me about...
12:38:39 <AnMaster> ehird, yes they are incompetent. And they failed to be open enough in the investigation, making the whole thing looks strange. And that of course leads to conspiracy theories
12:38:56 <ehird> AnMaster: they could have given the best investigation ever and the conspiracy theorists would be all over it
12:39:20 <ehird> AnMaster: sure, most conspiracies are like that
12:39:43 <ais523> ok, if you want a silly conspiracy theory: it was terrorists after all, but the US Government thought it would be less embarassing if people thought they'd done it
12:39:47 <ehird> "I think X - a bad thing - is happening. The evidence is irrelevant because it was manufactured by the people doing X. We must expose the people doing X."
12:39:54 <ais523> so they set up lots of conspiracy theories to try to discredit themselves
12:39:57 <ehird> "Any explanation from the people doing X about how they are not doing X is trying to cover up the conspiracy."
12:40:05 <AnMaster> ehird, however one can't deny that it did strengthen Bush's position considerably. But I rather think he used the situation, but not created it
12:43:32 <ehird> I'm gonna write a silly rougelike 'cause I want to.
12:43:40 <ais523> rougelike, or roguelike?
12:43:49 <ehird> ais523: rouguelike.
12:45:00 <ais523> I've been thinking for ages that someone should rewrite NetHack in Prolog
12:45:26 <ehird> scheme->unlambda can't be hard
12:45:26 <AnMaster> Prolog, another language I would like to learn
12:45:45 <ehird> lazy scheme and such -> lambda calculusy thing -> unlambda
12:45:54 <ehird> the latter one is mostly just lambda calculus -> SKI
12:46:13 <ehird> but probably very slow
12:46:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Sxyz = xz(yz)
12:46:18 <AnMaster> google only gives results related to the sport
12:46:25 <ais523> ehird: I thought scheme -> unlambda had already been done?
12:46:37 <ais523> ah no, it was scheme -> Befunge
12:46:42 <ehird> S, K and ` (apply)
12:46:43 <ehird> are turing complete
12:46:44 <ais523> I still want to do Haskell -> Underload some time
12:46:54 <ehird> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKI_combinator_calculus
12:47:06 <AnMaster> ais523, how does Underload differ from unlambda?
12:47:07 <ehird> unlambda is s, k, i
12:47:09 <ehird> then continuations
12:47:11 <ehird> and some other stuff
12:47:15 <ehird> AnMaster: toatlly different
12:47:16 <ais523> whereas Underload is a concatenative language
12:47:20 <ais523> which acts functional in practice
12:47:20 <ehird> only similarities:
12:47:24 <ehird> and they're functional
12:47:33 <AnMaster> and both are programming languages?
12:47:35 <ais523> Underlambda is a sort of cross between the two, which I haven't finished yet
12:47:40 <ehird> AnMaster: no, one is a mindfuck
12:47:43 <ehird> the other is a programming language
12:47:47 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
12:47:53 <ehird> AnMaster: mindfuck=unlambda
12:47:56 <ehird> ais523: nice doublelink
12:48:01 <ais523> ehird: my client is messed up
12:48:17 <ais523> it seems not to be able to handle two regex replacements in the same line
12:48:19 <ehird> but they go to the same page.
12:48:23 <ais523> AnMaster: the same link ended up twice
12:48:27 <ais523> even though I didn't type it twice
12:48:31 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I thought you wanted that
12:48:33 <ehird> ais523: both are esolangs
12:48:35 <ehird> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
12:48:36 <ais523> [[e:Underload], [[e:Unlambda]
12:48:41 <ehird> pretty obvious that e meant to link both
12:49:01 <ais523> and apparently Konversation messes it up...
12:49:07 <ais523> I'll report that bug sometime later, probably
12:51:05 <ais523> ah, it's been reported already
12:51:05 <ais523> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158910
12:51:14 <ais523> see, it wasn't me, it was my client, and that's official!
12:59:23 <AnMaster> not sure if there have been any release since then
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13:50:17 <ehird> hahahahahahahahaha
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13:50:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | It's like it's decided that fork(); shouldn't be ran..
13:50:53 <ehird> it was just me and optbot
13:50:54 <optbot> ehird: wow- not a bad deal: http://www.woot.com/
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13:53:05 <AnMaster> anyone know a brainfuck interpreter that can read from stdin?
13:53:11 <AnMaster> basically I want REPL for brainfuck atm
13:53:24 <ehird> AnMaster: $ bf /dev/stdin
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14:34:36 <ehird> convert.cc:51: error: 'g_assert' was not declared in this scope
14:34:36 <oklopol> filter((lambda page : page has a button for random content), internet)
14:35:22 <oklopol> why the fuck would i wanna see "most popular" entries or entries in chronological order? i want entries. an infinite flow of net entries, i don't care what the fucking category is
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14:35:57 <oklopol> wonder when i'm gonna add a random button on vjn.fi
14:36:29 <oklopol> nothing wrong with being hypocritical ofc
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14:37:45 <oklopol> well, on vjn.fi you can just get a list of *all* content, from a category for a certain type of media, so it's simple to randomize manually
14:38:16 <ehird> oklopol: well...categories make sense
14:38:25 <ehird> not everyone just wants an infinite stream of anything
14:41:03 <ehird> Requested 'glib-2.0 >= 2.17.3' but version of GLib is 2.16.3
14:41:10 <ehird> what is the latest glibmm that works with glib 2.16.3
14:41:35 <ehird> i was just asking random people
14:41:42 <oklopol> ehird: i'm sure they *should* just want an infinite stream
14:41:55 <ehird> oklopol: maybe people want to read about a specific topic...
14:42:08 <ehird> oklopol: also, infinite stream reminds me of that funky javascript that detects when you scroll down and loads more content
14:42:13 <ehird> oklopol: so it really is an infinite page of concent
14:43:11 <oklopol> a page with nothing but text, infinitely
14:43:40 <ehird> oklopol: if you write that random script for vjn and gimme the code i'll make it an infinite page
14:43:46 <ehird> because i have to spread awesome like that everywhere
14:43:53 <ehird> also, the whole pi on an infinite page is win
14:44:35 <oklopol> i was thinking of an infinite pi song at some point
14:44:58 <ehird> paul slocum recently made a machine that generates house music from the digits of pi
14:45:04 <ehird> http://www.qotile.net/blog/wp/?p=572
14:45:11 <ehird> oklopol: take a listen to an hour of it http://www.qotile.net/files/pi_1hour.mp3
14:45:17 <ehird> just put the text to speech of the digits over that
14:46:09 <ehird> he has a torernt of 10 hours of it also
14:46:26 <oklopol> what's the algo? do you know at all
14:46:37 <ehird> oklopol: no, he says hes gonna release the source post-polishing
14:47:03 <oklopol> well i'm not going to read the million lines of source to realize it's copypasting around a few elements
14:47:08 <oklopol> i want a human filtering of the source
14:47:13 <oklopol> perhaps you'll read it for me
14:47:20 <ehird> oklopol: i doubt its a million lines
14:47:27 <ehird> http://qotile.net/morehouse/pi.jpg
14:47:28 <ehird> http://qotile.net/morehouse/pi_detail.jpg
14:47:47 <ehird> oklopol: a screenshot of it http://www.qotile.net/images/catalog/pi_house_screen.jpg
14:47:50 <ehird> (its in an art gallery)
14:49:00 <oklopol> that doesn't contain any info though
14:49:28 <oklopol> perhaps i should create the infinite sequence, i have no idea how that's done actually.
14:49:40 <ehird> oklopol: i'll write the infinite pi page if you want
14:50:44 <oklopol> http://alienryderflex.com/pi.shtml :D
14:50:55 <ehird> oklopol: is it infinite?
14:51:21 <ehird> there is a O(n) pi algorithm
14:51:33 <ehird> assuming your computer doesn't decay, which it will.
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14:57:13 <oklopol> why the fuck don't programming languages support hexadecimal floating point
14:57:22 <oklopol> it's much more useful than base 10
14:57:33 <oklopol> WHY THE FUCK DO PEOPLE USE BASE 10
14:57:45 <ehird> oklopol: you know the answer to that
14:58:44 <oklopol> actually according to an algorithm book i'm reading: "humans have 10 fingers, so they find the base 10 to be the most natural"
14:59:15 <ehird> oklopol: well, that is probably how it arose, you know?
14:59:16 <ehird> counting on fingers
14:59:48 <oklopol> but it's not why we find it the most natural
15:00:53 <ehird> over and over again
15:01:00 <ehird> RICK ASTLEY RICK ASTLEY RICK ASTLEY
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15:02:21 <ehird> oklocod: i have an idea
15:02:40 <ehird> oklocod: what about a site which had like every site ever, and you could add your own sites, and you could deselect sucky sites
15:02:46 <ehird> an infinite page of random content
15:02:48 <ehird> from all of those site
15:03:25 <ehird> oklocod: amazing or not amazing
15:04:33 <ehird> oklocod: i shall write it
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15:18:17 <oklocod> write the dying heaven into it
15:18:49 <oklocod> well living and dying aren't antonymous, of course, excuse my terrible failure
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15:46:35 <ehird> iinland what is sweden?
15:46:40 <ehird> in finland what is s weden
15:47:20 <oklocod> "what is sweden in finnish?"?
15:48:10 <ehird> in finland what is sweden
15:51:15 <ehird> in finland what is sweden
15:53:16 <ais523> hmm... that lokos wrong in this font, the C doesn't line up with the : properly
15:53:44 <ais523> oklocod: I like hex floating point too
15:53:49 <ais523> although I've never used it
15:54:10 <ais523> well, apart from telling gcc to build floating point emulation libraries, and that doesn't count
15:54:26 <ais523> just out of interest, the Romans used base 10 for integers, but fractions were measured in units of 1/12
15:57:27 <oklocod> well that's just stupid :P
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17:00:16 <ais523> ah, just checking to see if I was online
17:00:19 <ais523> but I like your response
17:00:59 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
17:01:27 <ais523> ^def bf rev >,[>,]<.[<.]
17:01:27 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
17:01:34 <ais523> ^def rev bf >,[>,]<.[<.]
17:01:52 <ais523> ^def hi rev !dlorw ,olleH
17:01:52 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
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17:22:55 <fizzie> ehird: In Finland, Sweden is the most common target for nationality-related jokes.
17:23:06 <ehird> sweden is finaland
17:23:22 <ais523> in England, it's mostly the Irish who are laughed at in such jokes
17:23:45 <ais523> there's often a Scotsman too but they aren't the target of the joke, they're just there to establish normal behaviour
17:24:16 <fizzie> Here's it's a Finn, a Swede and a Norwegian.
17:24:40 <ais523> presumably there are similar jokes all over the world
17:27:52 <ehird> SWEEDEN IS FINALAND
17:28:24 <ehird> (Sweden was an inside job, wake up Finland?)
17:30:52 <fizzie> ais523: Started to write an example here, but ran across IRC's message length limits. See http://zem.fi/~fis/joke.txt
17:31:34 <ais523> that's totally unrealistic, obviously the captain would have saved one for himself...
17:32:20 <fizzie> Yes, he jumps off with it immediately after the announcement.
17:32:28 <oklocod> it's funny because the kids don't have a dad anymore, duh
17:32:37 <fizzie> Skipped that part when I was still trying to make that text fit in 512 characters.
17:32:52 <ais523> it's mostly funny because the plane was coming in to land and they were only 6 feet above the ground...
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17:55:03 <psygnisfive> but i take my backpack with me almost everywhere
18:00:55 <GregorR> fizzie, ehird, ais523: In the US, we make fun of /everyone/. We're equal-opportunity jerks.
18:01:11 <ehird> GregorR: Let's make fun of Somalia.
18:01:18 <ehird> Something about domain names
18:01:57 <GregorR> Make fun of a country with no effective government? Too easy.
18:02:14 <ehird> GregorR: But in a way that involves their people's inability to buy domain names from their country?
18:02:53 <GregorR> An American, an Italian and a Somali walk into a bar. The American is yelling at himself. The Italian asks why. "Well, I have two personalities that are always conflicting." The Italian says, "Oh, you only have two?" The Somali says nothing, because he imploded.
18:03:52 <GregorR> And no, I can't figure out a way to stuff domain names in there :P
18:03:57 <GregorR> Although I'd still like to own libc.so
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19:08:30 <oklocod> the graphs in this book are MARVELOUS
19:08:55 <oklocod> there should be a book about graphs, just pictures of them, one on every page
19:09:02 <ehird> oklocod: make a graph:
19:09:05 <ehird> 'Number of graphs in book'
19:09:07 <ehird> 'Awesomeness of book'
19:09:22 <ehird> you of all people can figure out how to make a chart a graph
19:10:32 <oklocod> there's plenty of ways to encode the list of pairs [(x, f(x))] that constitutes the chart into a graph
19:10:41 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers6/fffffffff.jpg
19:10:59 <Slereah_> This graph is the number of google results per number of f'.
19:11:16 <Slereah_> As you can see, there's a brutal drop for a hundred f's.
19:11:39 <ehird> Slereah_: my msn name was ffffffff or something recently
19:11:56 <ais523> what a ridiculous thing to graph...
19:12:05 <ehird> ais523: but awesome
19:12:06 <Slereah_> Also note the high result for ffffff
19:12:09 <oklocod> ehird: your mom's name was ffffffff or something recently.
19:12:15 <ehird> Slereah_: do 'length of program' vs 'steps to run'
19:12:17 <Slereah_> Because of the hex value of the same name
19:12:19 <ehird> for brainfuck or something
19:12:28 <oklocod> charts are like the ugliest thing on the planet
19:12:35 <Slereah_> ehird : It would diverge rapidly
19:12:44 <Slereah_> I would also have to solve the halting problem
19:12:58 <ehird> Slereah_: just download programs from the interweb
19:13:00 <oklocod> Slereah_: no you wouldn't, just don't plot the y axis infinitely
19:13:12 <oklocod> i mean, have a finite bound on the stepcount
19:13:14 <Asztal> I'm guessing it's 128, probably generated by repeatedly doubling the clipboard
19:13:32 <oklocod> Slereah_: nothing really, it just rhymed.
19:13:35 <Slereah_> There's 8^n programs for a program of length n
19:13:43 <Slereah_> What am I supposed to take as a result?
19:14:13 <Slereah_> Average is infinity for most, I think
19:14:27 <Slereah_> Unless you allow some unbalance brackets
19:14:28 <ehird> Slereah_: DOWNLOaDprograms
19:14:43 <ehird> Slereah_: just a lot of them
19:16:16 <Slereah_> Unlike ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
19:17:02 <ais523> less than 8^n, [] have to match
19:17:34 <Slereah_> ais523 : Not in my version it does not!
19:18:34 <ais523> new silly idea: an esolang where any input is a legitimate program
19:18:39 <ais523> but it's used to seed a random number generator
19:18:44 <ais523> and its output is the real program
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19:48:05 <ais523> hmm... that program has a nice visual simplicity to iy
19:48:11 <GregorR> Wow, that's beautifully compact.
19:48:33 <GregorR> (I guess that's what an infinite tape gives you though :P )
19:49:10 <ais523> I suppose that program is an argument for EOF = 0 or unchanged
19:49:48 <ais523> (I told ehird that ESO ought to be standardising brainfuck, ehird said it was standard, then we had a furious argument about what value EOF was in standard brainfuck)
19:50:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ugh.
19:50:51 <ais523> see, optbot agrees with me
19:50:58 <ais523> EOF = unchanged is probably neatest
19:51:02 <ais523> and the original implementation used -1
19:51:05 <ehird> neatest is irrelevant
19:51:12 <ehird> what matters is what programs & impls today are written for
19:51:28 <ais523> what do you mean "today's programs & impls"
19:51:50 <ais523> of the BF implementations I could reasonably get documentations for, some assumed 0, some assumed -1, some assumed unchanged, some let you choose, one errored out and one returned 32
19:52:00 <ehird> GregorR: For context, ais523 is convinced that since a lot of the My First Brainfuck Interps (none of which are any any good or really work properly) he snabbed don't use 0, that means 0 is not standard
19:52:25 <ais523> even the high-quality top-of-the-range ones differ
19:52:27 <GregorR> Most would use whatever C defines EOF as, no?
19:52:30 <ais523> although mostly they let you choose
19:52:31 <ehird> ais523: what about if you downloaded 100 c compilers made as toys
19:52:40 <ehird> and they defined printf to explode a toaster
19:52:44 <ehird> is printf exploding a toaster now a standard
19:52:45 <ais523> they would be good for guessing common widths for int, and so on
19:53:05 <ais523> they wouldn't define printf to explode a toaster because the people writing them wouldn't expect C to work like that
19:53:08 <GregorR> The lesson: EgoBF is the only standard. Love EgoBF. EgoBF is your friend.
19:53:15 <ais523> the toy compilers are a good way to measure people's expectations
19:53:21 <ais523> GregorR: what EOF value does it use?
19:53:29 <ehird> EXPECTATIONS ARE IRRELEVANT
19:53:52 <ais523> people's expectations is exactly what causes a de-facto standard to develop
19:54:10 <ehird> ais523: not if the people "developing" the de-facto standard are CLUELESS NEWBIES
19:54:16 <ais523> and the only written-down standards are the reference interp, which uses -1, and the Epistle, and I can't remember what value that uses
19:54:24 <ehird> epistle says 0 or unchanged
19:54:25 <ais523> ehird: clueless newbies are precisely who develop de-facto standards
19:54:32 <ehird> and egobf uses 0+configurable
19:54:34 <ais523> as that determines what 'de-facto' is
19:54:41 <ehird> define the standard
19:54:42 <ais523> people who actually think about it aren't doing de-facto
19:54:43 <ehird> more than implementations
19:54:52 <ehird> most brainfuck programs assume 0, or at least assume 0 or stay-same
19:55:56 <ais523> where are you finding these most brainfuck programs?
19:56:12 <ehird> where are you finding these useless implementations
19:56:19 <fizzie> And fungot uses 0! That's the interpreter most people use!
19:56:19 <fungot> fizzie: if you convince another human being. ever.)
19:56:37 <ehird> epistle, bff.c, egobf, fungot
19:56:38 <fungot> ehird: zsh was always better at piping of find, grep, etc from walmart you get a logical fnord integer
19:56:43 <ais523> ehird: I used the links from the Esolang article
19:56:44 <ehird> all but epistle use 0 by default
19:56:48 <ehird> and epistle says 0 or undefined
19:56:55 <ais523> also, the largest selection of BF programs I know is Keymaker's website
19:57:03 <ehird> epistle, bff.c, egobf, fungot
19:57:05 <ehird> all but epistle use 0 by default
19:57:06 <ehird> and epistle says 0 or undefined
19:57:38 <ais523> of the two BF interps in the Ubuntu repos, one uses -1, the other is configurable
19:57:53 <ehird> ais523: I like the part where you're ignoring me.
19:58:03 <ais523> no, I'm just disagreeing with you
19:58:20 <ais523> why do you consider fungot an authoritative source, for instance?
19:58:20 <fungot> ais523: and...? if you want args
19:58:29 <ais523> anf you mention bff.c a lot as if it means something in particular
19:59:19 <GregorR> ais523: Out of curiosity, what are the two BF interps in Ubuntu?
19:59:29 <ais523> they're called beef and bf
19:59:39 <ais523> although "bf" is a pretty generic name for a BF interp
19:59:42 <ehird> AnMaster: are you seriously telling me you don't know what bff.c is?
19:59:54 <ehird> if so, haha, stop arguing about brainfuck interps now
20:00:07 <ais523> I know it's a brainfuck interp that you harp on about a lot without explaining why you think it's more important than all the others
20:00:14 <ehird> ais523: it is famous
20:00:33 <ehird> being the fastest until bff4 displaced it, and bff4 is kinda sucky
20:00:36 <ehird> it uses dbfi-style input and such
20:00:50 <GregorR> ehird: EgoBFC2M is faster than both, but it's cheating :)
20:00:58 <ais523> GregorR: bf is apparently called "Yet another Brainfuck interpreter"
20:01:00 <fizzie> Debian almost got atehwa's "bfc", but then didn't: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=354831
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20:01:37 <ais523> ugh, why does esolang stuff always end up at Debian prio extra
20:01:45 <ais523> the only reason to put it there is that it's useless
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20:01:55 <ais523> I mean, it's not as if it typically depends on closed-source stuff or anything like that
20:02:35 <ais523> GregorR: how does EgoBFC2M work?
20:02:39 <ais523> using the ick -F trick?
20:03:06 <ais523> ah, so GregorR's claiming "faster" whilst not taking the whole run time into account?
20:03:11 <ais523> ick -F works like that too
20:03:16 <GregorR> (It's not strictly JIT since BF has no functions, so the whole thing is compiled at once, but it's about as close as you can get :P )
20:03:25 <ehird> ais523: no hes saying that it it is not an interp
20:03:25 <GregorR> I actually hadn't heard of ick.
20:03:36 <ais523> GregorR: ick's the filename of the C-INTERCAL compiler
20:03:37 <ehird> that runs the compiled code
20:03:41 <ehird> and discards it after
20:03:59 <ais523> ehird: well if that's faster than interpreting, it's a legit way to run the program
20:04:04 <fizzie> Depending on closed-source stuff would put it in contrib, I think; as far as I know "extra" really _means_ "useless".
20:04:13 <ehird> ais523: we're talking about _fastest interps_
20:04:27 <ais523> oh? I'm talking about fastest implementations
20:04:29 <GregorR> And then, Gregor disappeared because this conversation is getting stupid.
20:04:32 <ais523> no matter what technique they use
20:04:41 <ehird> ais523: we are not.
20:05:02 <ais523> why are you restricting yourself to interps only, just because the second-fastest happens to support your EOF convention?
20:05:12 <ais523> that seems a bit intellectually dishonest...
20:05:13 <ehird> ais523: because esowiki does
20:05:25 <ais523> awib's a compiler, for instance
20:05:28 <ehird> and i mentioned bff.c way before that, anyway
20:05:29 <ais523> and I'm pretty sure it's mentioned
20:05:35 <ehird> so don't accuse me of intellectual dishonesty kthx.
20:05:49 <ais523> well, if I invent a new world's fastest BF compiler, probably I'll use EOF unchanged
20:05:57 <ais523> or maybe -2, just to annoy you
20:06:54 <ehird> <ehird> For the record, do you agree that the de-facto standard is EOF=0?
20:06:55 <ehird> <GregorR> Off the record I agree :P
20:06:55 <ehird> <ehird> Oh, off the record is a shame because now I'm going to quote you >:)
20:07:11 <fizzie> Oh, and Debian does have the Perl Acme::Brainfuck "embed BF in Perl" module -- translates BF to Perl at the parsing stage -- with priority "optional".
20:07:24 <ais523> well, that's in CPAN, it must be useful...
20:07:30 <ais523> what EOF does it use, BTW?
20:07:33 <GregorR> #1 reason why 0 should be considered the standard: -1 sucks and makes code suck.
20:07:45 <GregorR> And then, Gregor ACTUALLY disappeared because this conversation is getting stupid.
20:07:48 <ais523> that's the #1 reason why it should be unchanged, really
20:08:45 <fizzie> ais523: The documentation doesn't say (and the "reverse" example uses ".----------]" to stop to newline) and I don't have it installed, so can't be sure.
20:09:44 <pikhq> ais523, Only make an argument of unchanged and 0 on EOF.
20:09:58 <pikhq> (since it's trivial to handle both in the same program)
20:10:20 <fizzie> It translates , directly to "P = ord getc;" and "ord" seems to turn the 'undef' returned by getc into 0.
20:10:24 <ais523> the only real argument for -1 is that it's what the reference interp used, and the most obvious choice in some ways
20:10:31 <pikhq> -1 is stupid, and -2 is fucking insane.
20:11:17 <ais523> maybe the correct value is actually "whatever the platform uses for EOF by default"
20:11:22 <ais523> which would be -1 for running on C
20:11:37 <ais523> 59048 for running on Malbolge (IIRC)
20:11:44 <pikhq> Actually, on C, it's not -1.
20:11:48 <ais523> and whatever the host used for recursive BF
20:11:56 <ais523> pikhq: and yes, I know, but it always seems to be -1 in practice
20:12:44 <pikhq> Saying 'always seems to be' is not correct. :p
20:13:18 <ais523> -1 for running on a typical POSIXy C implementation, maybe I should have said
20:16:39 <ais523> <Wikipedia> Some implementations set the cell at the pointer to 0, some set it to the C constant EOF (in practice this is usually -1), some leave the cell's value unchanged. There is no real consensus; arguments for the three behaviors are as follows.
20:19:56 <pikhq> I prefer 0, but don't mind unchanged.
20:21:14 <fizzie> fungot: What do you prefer? Never mind the behaviour I forcibly coded into you.
20:21:14 <fungot> fizzie: not sure about
20:21:25 <fizzie> Well, that's not conclusive.
20:21:49 <ais523> it's pretty conclusive for fungot
20:21:50 <fungot> ais523: sorry i don't know why i capitalized satisfiable? in the end
20:23:26 <ais523> optbot: what do you think?
20:23:34 <optbot> ais523: i would do a temporary complete sleep-dep experiment, but not that
20:23:48 <ais523> hmm... ChanServ? Your opinion?
20:23:54 <pikhq> I tend to write code that works when EOF=0 and EOF=unchanged, so they're effectively the same.
20:23:56 <ais523> you never seem to do much but send out welcomes...
20:24:11 <oklocod> ...like a general-purpose mental exercise book, basically pages and pages full of things you can "calculate" in your head, each represented with just a short textual representation, for instance "what will the following intercal snippet evaluate to?", or just "what is the optimal move for the following tic-tac-toe board, if you're X?"
20:24:31 <ais523> oklocod: sounds interesting
20:24:37 <ais523> would it all be esostuff
20:24:41 <ais523> or a mixed bag of things?
20:24:49 <oklocod> well, i was thinking a very mixed bag.
20:25:26 <oklocod> there could be problems that required quite specific knowledge, and ones that are trivial; you'd just skim through it, and mark the ones you've found the solution to
20:25:47 <ais523> ok, that does sound interesting
20:25:58 <ais523> for some reason it reminds me of the Mystery Hunt which had an esolang-related question
20:26:11 <ais523> but the whole of the rest of it was, as usual, all sorts of stuff
20:26:20 <ais523> oklocod: apparently it's some tradition at an American university
20:26:26 <ais523> I only found out about it from Wikipedia
20:26:32 <ais523> it's basically a giant quiz
20:26:43 <ais523> but the rules aren't really explained at all
20:26:53 <ais523> most of the questions have no explanation, you just have to guess how to answer them
20:27:11 <ais523> and normally they're presented in a surreal manner which itself is a clue to something else
20:27:21 <ais523> like giving them numbers that aren't in sequence, for instance
20:27:37 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_Hunt
20:27:40 <oklocod> anyway, all problems would have a very short explanation, and a very short answer you could like write on the line next to it, but the answer might require quite a lot of pondering; you could also have ones that are meant to be done on paper, which wouldn't have to have a limit on the memory the solution uses, so to speak (as most people's mental capacity is quite small)
20:28:06 <oklocod> i was thinking less mysterious :P
20:28:24 <oklocod> so that you'd actually know what you're answering to, just not always how
20:29:49 <oklocod> and many would require specific knowledge, so that you'd need to learn the basics of intercal for some questions, for instance
20:30:29 <oklocod> and there could be like markers for what question requires what, categories like Esolangs, Math, Games...
20:30:54 <oklocod> not sure that's useful, if there's the requirement of short questions
20:31:36 <oklocod> anyway, that's something that could just be gathered up for a long period of time, and i'm thinking i could, maybe, start doing just that
20:31:56 <ais523> anyway, http://www.mit.edu/~puzzle/02/round2/05/Puzzle.html was the esolang round
20:32:03 <ais523> I haven't looked at it in detail
20:32:08 <ais523> I wonder how long it would take us to solve?
20:32:30 <ais523> identifying the langs is the first step
20:32:33 <oklocod> (=<;:^8765Y32V0/.R,+*N('K%$H"!~}C0cba`_^]s\8IXGFEqSSnP?kdLKg&HGpE4CB1@/h sadol?
20:32:51 <ais523> sequences of chars running backwards like that are a giveaway
20:33:16 <ais523> fourth is RUBE, I think
20:33:29 <ais523> numbers on top of = signs
20:33:37 <ais523> is a typical way to print a string in RUBE
20:33:48 <oklocod> is it a conveyor belt language?
20:33:57 <ais523> the fifth, I can't recognise the format the image is in
20:34:28 <ais523> based on the magic word at the start
20:34:34 <ais523> but they changed the extension to confuse people
20:35:15 <ais523> based on the large blocks of colour, it's probably Piet
20:35:22 <oklocod> so, i'm thinking... that one that starts with a p
20:35:38 <ais523> the sixth I don't recognise
20:35:41 <oklocod> the large blocks are really a trivial giveaway
20:36:12 <ais523> I thought False had more letters in than that
20:36:13 <oklocod> false has newline strings like the one in the end
20:36:19 <ehird> if you wanted to make that book
20:36:29 <oklocod> the last line is just ", and the line before it ends in a "
20:36:32 <ehird> i'd make a web version where you can enter your answers
20:36:33 <oklocod> this is something false does
20:36:35 <ehird> and it'll tell you if you got any wrong
20:36:37 <oklocod> also doesn't false use []'s
20:36:46 <ais523> the next one is Flip, almost certainly
20:36:51 <ais523> which I've never used but it looks distinctive
20:37:22 <ais523> the one after that seems to be some sort of Lord Of The Rings-themed esolang
20:37:41 <ais523> oklocod: Flip's fungelike, but very multithreaded, I don't know much else
20:37:53 <oklocod> ais523: sure it's not that one language that uses quines for iteration?
20:38:04 <oklocod> strings, plus concatenation, plus printing
20:38:07 <ais523> it has much longer identifiers
20:38:12 <ais523> Muriel has a little sister, though
20:38:12 <oklocod> they didn't have the guts to do iteration
20:38:18 <ais523> which has shorter identifiers
20:38:22 <ais523> trying to remember its name now
20:38:30 <oklocod> well clealy they're just concatenating, then outputting.
20:38:41 <ais523> what do gth do, though?
20:38:47 <ais523> it looks like a stack-based lang that identifies strings
20:38:53 <oklocod> actually yes, something like that
20:38:54 <ais523> and I agree that the LOTR stuff is probably a decoy
20:38:58 <oklocod> i didn't realize there was that ppppppp part
20:39:07 <oklocod> yeah, most certainly, they're in strings, after all.
20:39:26 <ais523> can't be anything else...
20:39:26 <fizzie> ais523: Are you sure the fungelike isn't just plain old Befunge? It is at least a working befunge program.
20:39:44 <oklocod> yeah, | used for ifs, clearly
20:39:54 <oklocod> you have |'s, then code underneath, and to the right
20:40:12 <fizzie> Also it prints "DOROTHY'S AUNT" when run under a Funge interpreter.
20:40:25 <ais523> my guess is they all print strings
20:40:28 <ais523> which form the clues to something else
20:40:32 <ais523> the Mystery Hunt worked like that
20:40:45 <ais523> also the names of the questions will be a clue to yet another thing
20:40:45 <oklocod> yeah, would be a bit trivial just to find out what the language is
20:41:14 <oklocod> but, at least we did the first phase quite fast. except for the second to last
20:41:58 <ais523> ehird: http://www.mit.edu/~puzzle/02/round2/05/1183 if you want to play along
20:42:08 <ehird> that looks like muriel
20:42:10 <ais523> we're trying to identify what lang it's in
20:42:17 <ehird> some quine-rewriting language
20:42:23 <ais523> well, oklocod thought Muriel too
20:42:28 <oklocod> hmm, gt*h, g does something that lets you use t on the result, then it's converted "back" with h
20:42:40 <ais523> Muriel has longer keywords, so if it is it's the tarpit version
20:42:58 <oklocod> muriel so doesn't have longer keywords! :o
20:43:16 <ais523> g and p access variables
20:43:37 <ais523> and t removes the first char from a string
20:43:44 <ais523> so it's basically slicing all those strings by hand
20:43:54 <ais523> presumably to find the characters they actually want to print
20:44:36 <oklocod> well, okay, perhaps we are quite good at esolanging.
20:45:38 <ais523> we ought to be the best on the Internet, collectively
20:45:55 <ais523> now we just have to find interps and run them all
20:46:47 <ais523> 1183 outputs "first letter of the name of this programming language"
20:46:59 <fizzie> ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>[>+>+++>++>+++++>+++++++<<<<<-]>[>]<[>+>+<<-]<++++.>>--------.---.+++<<---<.>--->>+>++<++>++<+.-------.>..<.>--.<++<<---<.>--->>++.>+.<<<<.>---.<<--.<---.
20:47:48 <fizzie> And 600 was "Dorothy's aunt", which I think usually is a Wizard of Oz reference meaning Em (short for Emily).
20:47:59 <fizzie> I'm sure there must be some additional trickery involved.
20:48:14 <ais523> anyone here have a Malbolge interp?
20:48:22 <oklocod> i have nothing on this comp
20:48:24 <fizzie> Why are the link numbers the program lengths in bytes, anyway?
20:49:06 <oklocod> seems like a way to get irrelevant information that's not totally random, to confuse people
20:49:47 <ais523> fizzie: ah, that must be a clue to something else
20:49:48 <fizzie> The unlambda program (132) outputs an 's'.
20:49:56 <fizzie> Or actually it outputs:
20:50:08 <ais523> anyway the Malbolge program prints -> R <-
20:50:10 <oklocod> what would be nicer is if you'd have to guess what the program does even though the language is actually nonexistant
20:50:35 <oklocod> probably, done well, that would be quite a fun mental exercise
20:50:49 <ais523> well, it would just be a new lang in that case
20:51:01 <oklocod> yes, but you'd have to reverse-engineer it, that's the point
20:51:03 <ais523> so, which programs still have to be run?
20:51:21 <ais523> assuming that each program outputs a letter
20:52:11 <oklocod> ehird: sorry for not responding, i was in esolang mode, a webpage like that would be nice for it, could be referenced in it
20:52:48 <ais523> we have 73 R, 132 S, 180 E, 194 not sure, 198 not sure, 241 not sure, 600 M, 1183 S, 1840 not sure
20:54:14 <ais523> <noZone> ##Begin comment: Note to self, IRP reads comments, like this one, and makes comments about their content. Avoid placing sensitive data (e.g. SSN, Bank account numbers, etc.) in IRP comments like you do in other languages. ##End Comment
20:56:52 <fizzie> The Piet one (198) outputs "LETTER L".
20:57:08 <fizzie> Happened to have the Perl module Piet::Interpreter around.
21:03:27 <fizzie> But Acme::Chef doesn't seem to want to run the Chef program. :/
21:03:41 <ehird> fizzie: Perl isn't the only thing ever :-P
21:04:21 <ais523> ehird: no, but it's a convenient repo
21:04:33 <ehird> ais523: but cpan is evil remember
21:06:22 <fizzie> Strange, though. It just complains: "Unknown ingredient 'contents of the mixing bowl' required for recipe 'baked herb casserole' in 'verb'." even though the program itself seems just fine to me.
21:06:39 <ais523> it must be an earlier version
21:08:02 <fizzie> It shouldn't call require_ingredient at all when handling 'pour'.
21:09:37 <fizzie> Oh, I see. It should say "Liquify", not "Liquefy", in the program.
21:11:12 <fizzie> Unfortunately all it prints out are bytes with values in the [2, 32] range. I don't think the interpreter is compatible.
21:11:51 <ais523> fizzie: try adding 26 to all of them, what do you get then?
21:13:53 <fizzie> For the reference, here's the output. But it might be very wrong; better try with some other Chef interpreter.
21:14:02 <fizzie> 00000000 0e 03 15 02 20 02 03 03 13 06 17 0a 02 15 0a 10 |.... ...........|
21:14:03 <fizzie> 14, 3, 21, 2, 20, 2, 3, 3, 19, 6, 23, 10, 2, 21, 10, 16, 15
21:14:23 <ais523> I was wondering if it was positions in the alphabet
21:14:31 <ais523> in which case adding 64 would make more sense than adding 65
21:14:47 <fizzie> So was I, but at least 1=A it wasn't. Feel free to try with 0=A or something else.
21:15:34 <fizzie> http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/chef.html has "Additional syntax specifications added 17 July, 2003, marked in red. Fixed spelling of "liquefy" keyword."
21:15:39 <fizzie> So the Acme::Chef one is pretty old.
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21:17:59 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ perl -e '@a = (14, 3, 21, 2, 20, 2, 3, 3, 19, 6, 23, 10, 2, 21, 10, 16, 15); print chr($_+63) foreach @a; print "\n";'
21:18:17 <fizzie> "MBT AS ABBREVIATION" sounds suspiciously English to be random nonsense.
21:18:25 <ais523> those sneaky puzzle-setters...
21:18:49 <ais523> so what letter does that resolve to, I wonder?
21:19:02 <ais523> unfortunately it's probably one of those questions which you need to know about MIT to solve
21:20:14 <oklocod> well, what does mbt mean, as an abbreviation?
21:20:21 <oklocod> isn't that kind of an obvious next step
21:20:25 <fizzie> A lot of thing, according to Wikipedia. :p
21:21:09 <oklocod> well, we're looking for random letters, perhaps this one gives us 3? dunno.
21:21:27 <ais523> I think each answer is one letter most likely
21:21:41 <ais523> although 600 could be em rather than m
21:21:59 <oklocod> err, i'm pretty sure it's M
21:22:52 <fizzie> 73 R, 132 S, 180 E, 194 ?, 198 L, 241 ?, 600 M, 1183 S, 1840 "MBT as abbreviation". Still two more languages to run there.
21:25:54 <ais523> the RUBE program seems to have no output instructions
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21:26:22 <oklocod> prolly just builds a string?
21:26:42 <ais523> RUBE doesn't have strings
21:30:56 <fizzie> Ran it with the catseye interpreter with a long delay -- after hacking usleep() in place of the #ifdef BORLAND delay() based one -- and the crates just seem to drop off without much happening.
21:31:31 <ais523> yes, there are no output instructions
21:31:40 <ais523> there's probably a typo in the program somewhere
21:31:48 <fizzie> They drop down to the < and then into the furnace.
21:31:52 <ais523> also, what's that input instruction doing over the right where it can't do anything?
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21:32:48 <fizzie> Actually a C is left on the conveyor belt at the very end.
21:33:05 <ais523> then C means "output char"
21:33:07 <ais523> which makes a lot more sense
21:35:43 <fizzie> "This yields an "E"." is what it does.
21:36:06 <ais523> 73 R, 132 S, 180 E, 194 E, 198 L, 241 ?, 600 M, 1183 S, 1840 "MBT as abbreviation".
21:37:13 <oerjan> <oklopol> AnMaster: try the unlambda page, oerjan created a system for representing it
21:37:39 <oerjan> that _definitely_ was on the esolangs wiki, no matter how much you try to confuse poor AnMaster
21:40:43 <oerjan> but i think madore's pages are good for callcc too
21:41:26 <fizzie> koira-apina /u/1/htkallas > ./false 241.f
21:41:26 <fizzie> Portable False Interpreter/Debugger v0.1 (c) 1993 $#%!
21:41:26 <fizzie> ..-. .. ..-. - .... .-.. . - - . .-. --- ..-.
21:41:26 <fizzie> .- .-.. .--. .... .- -... . -
21:41:54 <fizzie> The Javascript interpreter didn't run it, and false_int.c did not want to compile on my GCC, but there it is. Someone else can translate from the morse code.
21:43:10 <ais523> FIFTH LETTER OF ALPHABET
21:43:29 <fizzie> It might also be an A.
21:43:35 <fizzie> Which is fifth letter of "alphabet".
21:44:07 <ais523> so, do the letters anagram to anything, I wonder
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21:46:30 <fizzie> If you use the "A from alphabet" interpretation, you get R, S, E, E, L, A, M, S and 1840 being something strange; it anagrams to "real mess". :p
21:47:12 <ais523> well, I suspect we don't have enough context to get any further with the puzzle
21:47:17 <ais523> but I'm glad at our progress
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22:29:24 <psygnisfive> haskell makes it really easy to perform algebraic manipulations of functions
22:30:21 <ais523> I'm starting to think that all imperative languages and all functional languages are in fact special cases of Haskell
22:30:31 <oerjan> in fact the ghc compiler is heavily based on algebraic simplifications
22:30:56 <psygnisfive> i mean look at this definition of adding two lists:
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22:31:27 <psygnisfive> and from this last version it becomes trivial to then say
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22:32:37 <psygnisfive> ehird: so? was i interrupting any conversations?
22:32:43 <ehird> psygnisfive: Irrelevant.
22:32:58 <ais523> no, not irrelevant really
22:33:14 <Asztal> anything involving (.) . or (x .) currently breaks my parser :(
22:33:19 <ais523> actually, /me goes home
22:33:37 <oerjan> Asztal: you're trying to implement haskell?
22:33:56 <ehird> ais523: if he was someone who had just joined he'd be being pointed to pastebins now
22:33:56 <ehird> Why do the rules change because he has been here for a while?
22:34:09 <Asztal> sorry, I mean my feeble human parsing
22:34:19 <psygnisfive> because pastebins are useful in specific contexts, ehird.
22:34:38 <ehird> psygnisfive: every time anyone has ever flooded this channel they are told to use a pastebin
22:34:39 <oerjan> well (f . g) x = f (g x)
22:34:46 <oerjan> that's the definition of .
22:35:08 <ehird> you may argue that is bad, fine. but that does not mean it doesn't apply to you too
22:35:25 <psygnisfive> haskell seems to be designed to make obfuscation easy
22:35:51 <oerjan> psygnisfive: there have been three obfuscated haskell contests
22:36:15 <psygnisfive> what, did people just submit their existing programs and win? :P
22:37:05 <psygnisfive> did they define some trivial function in the most absurd way possible, ala EHP?
22:37:31 <oerjan> i do recall some heavy renaming of functions as operators
22:38:47 <oerjan> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Obfuscation
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00:22:41 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I agree with ehird above. Same rules for everyone.
00:23:56 <oerjan> no! different rules for those whose nicks start with 'o'
00:24:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, he was just amused at such a outrageous idea
00:24:53 <oerjan> optbot: say it isn't so!
00:24:53 <optbot> oerjan: there's no port there.
00:25:17 <AnMaster> I think that is a conclusive no?
00:25:55 <oerjan> that is a matter of interpretetationing
00:26:42 <optbot> AnMaster: do you know the names?
00:27:03 <optbot> AnMaster: queen's orders
00:27:31 <optbot> AnMaster: Hello you bastards.
00:27:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think he is on drugs
00:27:53 <AnMaster> ehird and me was around when he admitted before
00:28:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, so none of that is probably relevant
00:30:45 <oerjan> I just think optbot thinks you have insufficient security clearance
00:31:07 <oerjan> see? he doesn't want me to speak about it
00:31:24 <AnMaster> optbot, are you on drugs again?
00:31:25 <optbot> AnMaster: what about between mercurial and git?
00:31:38 <oerjan> those are some heavy drugs yeah
00:31:39 <AnMaster> well one of those may be a drug ;P
00:31:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, I tend to use svn and bzr mostly
00:32:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, so I was right anyways?
00:32:32 <oerjan> you were right - from one point of view
00:33:09 <oerjan> from the opposite point of view, you would be left
00:39:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, which theory do you subscribe to in http://blag.xkcd.com/2008/09/09/the-goddamn-airplane-on-the-goddamn-treadmill/ ?
00:44:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, well do you plan to answer the question? :)
00:44:13 <oerjan> i agree that it is impossible with actual physical materials
00:44:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is why it is called a "thought experiment"
00:46:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, so assuming needed materials (complex carbon structures in some composite material or whatever) existed, what then?
00:48:35 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I know it is an old post, and?
00:50:34 <psygnisfive> so were you interesting in working on a language with those features from before, anmaster??
00:50:58 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I don't have any ideas how it would look really
00:51:23 <AnMaster> but yes I would like to know what more you come up with + give suggestions
00:51:31 <AnMaster> afraid I lack time to implement stuff
00:51:46 <psygnisfive> well, the scoping thing would be i think a relatively small thing to add, basically with just an equivalent of an "either" keyword
00:52:05 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, it is 01:51 here.. so Maybe in the morning would be a better time to discuss?
01:50:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | *is that quantum physics.
01:51:06 <oerjan> no it's strawberry jam
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11:29:43 <AnMaster> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]> +++.>>.+++++.>---.+++.<.-----.>+++++++++++.<----.<++.>+++++++.+++..+.
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11:30:01 <AnMaster> is that fungot detecting something
11:30:02 <fungot> AnMaster: he even draw a heptagon well? lol
11:30:08 <AnMaster> or is it the program printing tha
11:30:18 <AnMaster> ^bf +-+++++++++++++[>++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]> +++.>>.+++++.>---.+++.<.-----.>+++++++++++.<----.<++.>+++++++.+++..+.
11:30:23 <AnMaster> ^bf ++++++++++++++[>++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]> +++.>>.+++++.>---.+++.<.-----.>+++++++++++.<----.<++.>+++++++.+++..+.
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11:59:58 <oklocod> i want a language where the basic construct is the solve 3sat function
12:00:41 <oklocod> basically a line would be like ABC ab, meaning "find a, b and c such that ( a | b | c )^( !a | !b )"
12:01:06 <oklocod> 3sat means you have boolean or clauses with 3 vars, and you and them all
12:01:07 <ais523> is there any way to use that for control flow?
12:01:25 <oklocod> one of the "most general" np-complete problem, in an intuitive sense
12:01:27 <ais523> (btw that's my first reaction when introduced to pretty much any new operator)
12:01:47 <ais523> anyway, if it's just 3 booleans, can't you brute-force it?
12:01:59 <oklocod> you can have more *variables*
12:02:08 <oklocod> just that clauses are size 3.
12:02:23 <oklocod> you can quite simply encode clauses of any size to clauses of size 3
12:02:45 <ais523> ah, ok... what part of an expression is a clause?
12:02:51 <ais523> and how do you measure its size?
12:03:21 <oklocod> the original idea was a language where the spec says 3sats must be solved in constant time :P
12:03:41 <oklocod> but, i'm not sure about flow control yet, and more importantly, i'm not sure how to do infinite memory
12:04:14 <oklocod> but i was thinking some scope, and for memory, fuzzy logic, you could have a real number as the probability, meaning unbounded memory in theory
12:04:32 <oklocod> i don't know about the complexity of fuzzy 3sat, but it's probably at least not much easier :P
12:04:46 <oklocod> but, lecture in 10 minutes and i don't have a bike or money for bus
12:05:28 <oklocod> ais523: read a book that mentions 3sat, it's quite a widely-known problem!
12:06:01 <oklocod> (now if only i could find my running sandals...)
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12:37:08 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yeah, fungot just says "out of time".
12:37:09 <fungot> fizzie: someone once said how long is a long vowel, and so
12:43:19 <ais523> fizzie: get it to print hello world as an error message, then we can confuse people
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13:08:34 <ais523> you have about an hour of talking to me before I have to leave for lectures
13:09:08 <GregorR> But you've only got a half hour with me D-8
13:09:27 <ehird> guess what hasnt installed yet ais523
13:09:40 <ais523> hmm... is it a collaborative editor by any chance?
13:12:23 <ehird> if gtk and all related technologies disappeared tomorrow
13:12:30 <ehird> i would not mind at all.
13:13:38 <GregorR> By some definition, all software is related technology.
13:16:54 <ehird> GregorR: Oh shut up :-P
13:17:04 <ehird> ais523: Yay it's getting further!
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13:42:58 <ais523> although I will be soon
13:43:03 <ehird> i'd know because the bouncer would tell me
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13:50:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | shouldn't you just SELECT *.
13:55:28 <fizzie> optbot: Re topic, not everyone has their logs in a relational database.
13:55:29 <optbot> fizzie: My idea was along the line of writing up something simple, since it's almost 2AM.
13:58:30 <ehird> fizzie: But they should.
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14:13:32 <AnMaster> why a relational db? Makes no sense for logs to me
14:14:28 <fizzie> Existing (good) database engines are like that and do indexing and queries well; it's not an especially bad fit for storing logs.
14:14:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Relations & indexes (see everything said by a certain user),
14:14:54 <ehird> interoperability and mashing with other DB-using things,
14:15:01 <ehird> and excellent query support for finding & filtering things.
14:15:11 <ehird> Admittedly, the relational part is less important than the database part in that.
14:15:21 <AnMaster> ehird, so you have a table with nicks -> number mapping?
14:15:30 <ehird> AnMaster: nicks->number?
14:15:41 <ehird> Well, relations do use ids...
14:15:48 <ehird> So yes, you'd have a table with {id,name}
14:16:01 <ehird> id would more likely be a GUID
14:16:06 <ehird> as opposed to an autoincrementing integer
14:16:10 <ehird> (because they aren't really ordered)
14:16:20 <ehird> Also, I _would_ have that format if I coded my client.
14:16:26 <ehird> But Colloquy uses some god-awful XML format.
14:16:27 <AnMaster> and possibly searchable keywords
14:16:42 <ehird> It isn't _totally_ unwarranted as far as I can tell though,
14:16:50 <ehird> because it's used e.g. to link usernames in the logs
14:16:58 <ehird> (I can rightclick your 'ehird' there and get options)
14:17:07 <ehird> <sender self="yes" hostmask="ehird@eso-std.org">ehird</sender>
14:17:07 <ehird> <message id="COJD74OXQY1" received="2008-10-07 14:16:52 +0100">because it's used e.g. to link usernames in the logs</message>
14:17:09 <ehird> <message id="V17BHBOXQY1" received="2008-10-07 14:16:59 +0100">(I can rightclick your '<span class="member">ehird</span>' there and get options)</message>
14:17:18 <AnMaster> ehird, however why do you need to right click nicks in the log?
14:17:25 <ehird> AnMaster: I dunno. :-)
14:17:37 <ehird> It'd make sense with DB logs - since you'd be able to, e.g. click and search for other messages by that user or whatever.
14:17:43 <ehird> But I don't see any use for it for Colloquy.
14:17:49 <ehird> AnMaster: for the rightclicking
14:17:51 <ehird> ehird AnMaster ehird
14:17:54 <AnMaster> why not <nick> or <channel> or something
14:18:04 <ehird> AnMaster: because the content of 'message' is HTML
14:18:08 <ehird> there is an actual reason for that -
14:18:12 <ehird> you can do bold, italics, underline
14:18:17 <ehird> even though that's awful
14:18:28 <AnMaster> ehird, you can use colors, but it doesn't use html format at all
14:18:34 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but since they're using XML
14:18:46 <ehird> it makes sense just to use XHTML for <message>
14:18:50 <AnMaster> not sure if the , is there or not
14:18:51 <ehird> however, i'm not actually defending it
14:18:53 <ehird> because it's pretty awful.
14:19:25 <ehird> http://nkreeger.com/correo/ <- This looks delicious. Thunderbird backend with a Cocoa interface. But does it do threading...
14:19:38 <ehird> Doesn't seem to say.
14:19:42 <AnMaster> I think bold on irc is the formatting code that makes most sense. But even it is awful
14:19:58 <ehird> AnMaster: I prefer italics, mostly.
14:20:08 <AnMaster> ehird, well my client can't show that
14:20:21 <AnMaster> also this channel filter formatting codes
14:21:20 <ehird> That's why I /msg'd.
14:22:05 <fizzie> Did we happen to have any Pythonistas here currently?
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14:22:17 <AnMaster> "<ehird> p.s. the fact that your irc client emulates a graphical environment by sending special codes to an emulator of the outmoded terminal model with a standard from the 70s"
14:22:34 <ehird> So emacs can't do italics?
14:22:42 <ehird> I'm sure I've seen it do so.
14:22:49 <ehird> (Although italics on monospaced fonts are pig ugly.)
14:23:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I also got xchat connected to the bnc, no italics there either
14:23:18 <AnMaster> bold and inverted worked in both
14:23:38 <AnMaster> ehird, italics is the *least* supported control code I think
14:23:51 <ehird> AnMaster: But italics is delicious
14:23:54 <ehird> (delicious was in italics there.)
14:24:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well that doesn't change the fact that it isn't supported by the majority of the clients
14:24:43 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes italics are ok, better than underline anyway
14:24:49 <ehird> Also, yeah, underline is useless.
14:25:00 <ehird> Underline, iirc, was invented for typewriters to use to specify to the printing press to use italics.
14:25:41 <AnMaster> ehird, also if you want to mark something in a printed text you normally either use one of those yellow pens, or you underline it
14:26:05 <ehird> I'd use a highlighter, yeah. :-P
14:26:38 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes if I have one where I am I'd use that
14:26:49 <AnMaster> assuming that is what the yellow pens are called in English
14:27:22 <AnMaster> ehird, ever used that on a recently printed page though? :P
14:28:12 <ehird> I don't believe in paper, so.
14:28:41 <AnMaster> but there are still cases where paper is useful
14:28:43 <ehird> AnMaster: No I mean really don't believe in paper
14:28:45 <fizzie> All the paper I have on my desk is purely imaginary, then?-)
14:28:46 <ehird> I don't think paper actually exists
14:28:49 <ehird> I need more evidence
14:28:58 <ehird> fizzie: You could be hallucinating.
14:29:13 <optbot> AnMaster: well I"m on a 256k connection.
14:29:23 <fungot> AnMaster: thanks for the pointer.
14:29:24 <ehird> guess optbot has to use paper, then
14:29:24 <optbot> ehird: file = memory ... sentinel code ...
14:29:32 <ehird> cause his connection is too slow to use the web
14:30:24 * ehird checks out Thunderbird 3 in the hope that it will look something other than puke-worthy on OS X.
14:30:44 <ehird> It uses Cocoa, apparently.
14:30:59 <ehird> http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites//thunderbird3.jpg <- That's still an ugly transition from the titlebar to the toolbar. :|
14:31:08 <ehird> ALso the "Look! We can invent our own tabs!" stuff.
14:31:34 <ehird> Mac users get another long-awaited feature with Thunderbird 3's ability to integrate with the native OS X Address Book. This rough feature is disabled by default, but developer Bryan Clark posts a work-around for the adventurous.
14:32:58 <ehird> What would you people do if you wanted to change email?
14:33:08 <ehird> Current thoughts: Bounce any incoming email with a message telling people I've changed email
14:33:13 <ehird> then check it every now and then
14:33:16 <ehird> and if I see a machine-sent email
14:33:20 <ehird> change the email it sends to
14:35:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I wouldn't change email
14:36:01 <AnMaster> ehird, also IMO the tabs look good in that screenshot
14:36:03 <ehird> I'm using gmail via IMAP right now, I'd prefer to use ehird@ehird.net and while I have that chance, it's worth removing my ties to Google.
14:36:15 <AnMaster> though the screenshot itself is low quality jpg and low resolution
14:36:27 <ehird> Also, yes, they look good, but they look out of place with everything else on my dsektop.
14:36:33 <ehird> I'll just use Coreo.
14:36:34 <AnMaster> ehird, also what about tusho.net?
14:37:03 <ehird> Changing my MSN email will be easy, just export&reimport contacts.
14:38:05 <ehird> Also, I wonder if Leopard fixed the horrible pile of crap that is Mail.app
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14:45:44 <asiekierka> I am planning to make a portable console. Is there an esolang that fits for it?
14:46:09 <ehird> Nope... but you had that idea in 2007.
14:47:05 <asiekierka> But now i have a person that can help me
14:47:30 <ehird> asiekierka: Look through the esolang list?
14:50:55 <asiekierka> Wow. Andrew's Programming Language looks centrainly awesome
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15:01:31 <AnMaster> ais523, when you are here, why does ick build using ICC show "ICL999I NO SKELETON IN MY CLOSET, WOE IS ME!" when no arguments are given on command line, but when built with gcc it does nothing?
15:03:33 <AnMaster> ais523, also something strange is going on when you have multiple out-of-tree build trees against the same source tree
15:05:03 <AnMaster> ah found the cause of the first issue (running from build dir didn't work=
15:05:18 <AnMaster> the second issue seem to be related to dependency tracking
15:15:27 <ehird> http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/new-in-labs-stop-sending-mail-you-later.html?foo LMAO
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15:36:28 <ehird> AnMaster: beats me
15:46:29 <ehird> -psyBNC: Tue Oct 7 14:45:48 :connect from ai01-fap01.bham.ac.uk
15:46:30 <ehird> [15:45] -psyBNC: Tue Oct 7 14:45:48 :User ais523 logged in.
15:46:36 <AnMaster> ais523, there is a build issue for ick with icc when using -ipo in CFLAGS
15:48:25 <AnMaster> ais523, it seemed to be some linker error
15:48:49 <AnMaster> ais523, also you call gcc directly in one place it seems
15:49:07 <AnMaster> gcc -I. -I../c-intercal -g -O2 -o oil oil-oil.c
15:49:11 <ais523> ah, is that under the new build system?
15:49:15 <ais523> I know what's causing that
15:49:23 <ais523> it's a bug that only occurs when not cross-compiling
15:49:33 <AnMaster> ais523, better fix it, -ipo needs all object files compiled with -ipo
15:49:44 <ais523> AnMaster: it isn't linked to anything
15:49:52 <ais523> oil is run at build-time, as part of the build process
15:50:00 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/Tc7Udk45.html
15:50:00 <ais523> it's built for the build system not the host system
15:50:04 <ais523> which is why it's using a different compiler
15:50:11 <ais523> if build != host that would be necessary
15:50:21 <ais523> OTOH, it does look a little strange when not cross-compiling
15:50:30 <AnMaster> ais523, any idea about said error?
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15:51:04 <ais523> AnMaster: oil didn't run, obviously
15:51:10 <ais523> it's referring to a function in generated code
15:51:11 <AnMaster> ais523, ipo basically avoids optimising the code until link time in order to let the compiler have a clearer picture of the depndencies between functions
15:51:49 <AnMaster> so the object files are some custom format
15:51:54 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/wUV5Fj96.html
15:52:06 <ais523> AnMaster: try setting CC_FOR_BUILD=$CC
15:52:23 <ais523> if that solves it, you've hit a bug I know about already
15:52:27 <ais523> and will fix some time later
15:52:46 <AnMaster> the system is a bit slow, it is a p3
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15:53:16 <ais523> probably doesn't help that I run configure twice, that's another side-effect of the bug
15:53:32 <ais523> (only INTERCAL could come up with a bug that only happens when /not/ cross-compiling...)
15:54:14 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/yetdcp35.html
15:54:25 <AnMaster> ran from empty build dir before
15:54:47 <ais523> oh, set CFLAGS_FOR_BUILD too, to the same value as CFLAGS
15:55:01 <AnMaster> ais523, also darcs diff is huge, for some reason it decided to generate configure with autoconf 2.63
15:55:14 <ais523> no, I did that deliberately
15:55:18 <ais523> I upgraded the build process
15:55:26 <ais523> so you can expect the diffs on the resulting generated code to be massive
15:55:36 <AnMaster> it regenerate configure compared to the repo version
15:55:42 <AnMaster> with a different version of autotools
15:55:51 <ais523> ah, automake does that
15:56:00 <AnMaster> diff -rN old-c-intercal/aclocal.m4 new-c-intercal/aclocal.m4
15:56:00 <AnMaster> < m4_if(AC_AUTOCONF_VERSION, [2.61],,
15:56:00 <AnMaster> < [m4_warning([this file was generated for autoconf 2.61.
15:56:01 <AnMaster> > m4_if(AC_AUTOCONF_VERSION, [2.63],,
15:56:02 <ais523> if it detects that the build system has changed, it rebuilds the build system first
15:56:03 <AnMaster> > [m4_warning([this file was generated for autoconf 2.63.
15:56:05 <ais523> and then calls itself recursively
15:57:28 <ais523> this doesn't explain how the timetstamps got mangled on the repository, though
15:57:55 <ais523> the problem is it doesn't seem to find optimise_pass1 at all
15:58:07 <ais523> AnMaster: can you grep for optimise_pass1 on the resulting directory
15:58:11 <ais523> and tell me which files it's in?
15:58:11 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/XnEjDV60.html
15:58:28 <AnMaster> ais523, not found in the build directory
15:58:42 <ais523> is there a file called oilout-m.c
15:59:05 <ais523> does it mention optimise_pass1?
15:59:11 <AnMaster> ais523, not with that spelling no
15:59:30 <ais523> but if I use different spelling in multiple files
15:59:36 <ais523> then how on earth did it build at my end?
15:59:42 <AnMaster> err the error said optimize_pass1 with z too
15:59:51 <AnMaster> it was just you who said with s
16:00:03 <AnMaster> there are *plenty* of optimize_pass1 in the build dir
16:00:21 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/3Hzb7420.html
16:00:46 <ais523> well, that looks correct
16:01:04 <AnMaster> ais523, do you link it differently from other code?
16:01:12 <ais523> it ends up in a library
16:01:26 <ais523> is oilout-m.c in libidiot.a?
16:01:41 <AnMaster> what is the command to check now again?
16:02:19 <AnMaster> yes it is there but with .o not .c
16:02:50 <ais523> hmm... that makes sense
16:03:04 <ais523> the problem is everything seems to be workign fine
16:03:07 <ais523> and yes, it should be with .o
16:03:17 <AnMaster> ais523, hm what about the symbol table for it
16:03:39 <ais523> AnMaster: does -ipo work when creating a library?
16:03:42 <AnMaster> ais523, ok nm says no symbols are exported
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16:03:52 <AnMaster> ais523, as far as the man page says, it seems it should
16:04:39 <oerjan> The man page is a lie!
16:05:13 <ais523> it sounds to me like this is some strange issue with the compiler option, that it doesn't expect files to be bundled into a .a before being linked
16:06:30 <AnMaster> ais523, ah hm not strange then I suspect
16:06:43 <AnMaster> since due to the way it works it can't use standard object files
16:06:54 <AnMaster> so I guess using ar mess it up
16:07:17 <AnMaster> ais523, and then you try to link it like the *.a contained normal object files
16:07:26 <oerjan> <oklocod> the original idea was a language where the spec says 3sats must be solved in constant time :P
16:07:28 <ais523> well, it contained -ipo object files
16:07:31 <AnMaster> ais523, in fact all the other *.o only contains __ildata_included
16:07:36 <oerjan> linear time would be impressive enough
16:08:59 <AnMaster> ais523, and ipo otherwise happens before the creation of the native object file
16:09:57 <ais523> AnMaster: on line 471 of Makefile.in, replace $(ick_LDADD) with oilout*.o
16:10:14 <ais523> well, on the Makefile itself actually
16:10:16 <ais523> rather than Makefile.in
16:10:19 <ais523> to save yourself reconfigure time
16:10:34 <ais523> do it on the makefile itself
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16:10:44 <ais523> the .in is in buildaux, I put most of the build system there
16:10:52 <fungot> asiekierka: note that the case tho??
16:11:14 <ais523> AnMaster: it's libidiot.a you have to replace with oilout*.o in the Makefile itself
16:11:17 <ais523> and somewhere around 471
16:11:18 <fizzie> It's still the good old fungot.
16:11:18 <fungot> fizzie: wouldn't it have to be
16:11:27 <asiekierka> Fizzie: how do you run the bf interpreter then
16:11:34 <oerjan> asiekierka: just ... creepy
16:11:36 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
16:11:45 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi
16:12:00 <fizzie> asiekierka: Here's a nifty flowchart of the fungot source code too: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png
16:12:01 <fungot> fizzie: time exceeded. that makes chez almost 20 years ago
16:12:33 <AnMaster> ais523, linking still in progress
16:12:37 <fizzie> Hmm. 'hi' doesn't seem to do much.
16:12:38 <ais523> do you have one of those rainbow-colourised versions?
16:12:50 <ais523> where program flow is shown with colourful lines?
16:12:58 <AnMaster> ais523, why do you link it into an archive first btw?
16:13:00 <ais523> AnMaster: ok, it's -ipo strangeness
16:13:09 <ais523> and it's linked into an archive to get the dependencies rights
16:13:12 <fizzie> ais523: Sorry, no. I did think about "syntax-highlighting" it though.
16:13:15 <ais523> as it contains a variable number of files
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16:14:48 <AnMaster> ais523, fail to build programs
16:14:54 <AnMaster> ais523, seems you don't use icc to do that
16:15:00 <AnMaster> ais523, so stuff collide *badly*
16:15:10 <ais523> AnMaster: during the build of ick itself
16:15:15 <ais523> or during the compilation of an INTERCAL program?
16:15:17 <fizzie> How is that ^rev an improvement?
16:15:33 <ais523> set CC in your environment, does it work then?
16:15:41 <ais523> ick doesn't honour CFLAGS though so you'll have to merge it into CC
16:15:42 <fungot> asiekierka: the eval thing would be done in the interpretor itself, like " does firefox resume downloads"
16:15:47 <ehird> http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/ Linus has a blog, hell freezes over.
16:15:50 <AnMaster> ais523, ah you use ar for that too? Hm
16:15:59 <AnMaster> ais523, well I guess the installed libraries got broken then
16:16:39 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, definitely
16:16:39 <fizzie> Actually the original ^rev I had there didn't add any dots either. Someone has messed with it.
16:16:43 <AnMaster> asiekierka, did you want something since you highlighted
16:16:44 <fizzie> ^def rev bf >,[>,]<[.<]
16:16:52 <ais523> Automake doesn't seem to handle -ipo
16:17:02 <ais523> because it doesn't know what it's building for
16:17:05 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well what did you want?
16:17:14 <ais523> the problem is that you aren't compiling a single program when building C-INTERCAL
16:17:20 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you highlighted me. So what important thing did you want?
16:17:22 <ais523> you're compiling a program and some tools and some libraries
16:17:40 <ais523> oerjan: that's one of the best rot-13'd words I've seen ever
16:18:01 <oerjan> ais523: it's old, from the Usenet days
16:18:44 <AnMaster> ais523, Also something is wrong when building using clang
16:18:49 <fizzie> Also an alt.folklore.urban thing; used to lurk in that group once.
16:18:53 <ais523> do you know what it is yet?
16:19:13 <AnMaster> ais523, building ick works, but ick can't build
16:19:50 <ais523> AnMaster: have you set CC in the environment?
16:19:54 <fungot> asiekierka: 4 as digit or as log?
16:20:03 <fizzie> ^raw JOIN #esoteric-blah
16:20:14 <ais523> I really need to get CC to filter down from configure to the default compiler for ick
16:20:18 <AnMaster> ais523, do you use ar directly?
16:20:32 <ais523> which configure substitutes with AR
16:20:37 <AnMaster> will try with that set to llvm-ar then
16:20:58 <ais523> what's the compiler called? llvm-cc?
16:21:10 <AnMaster> ais523, it is a wrapper script for clang
16:21:22 <AnMaster> ais523, since clang doesn't have the same command line options
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16:22:04 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
16:22:20 <asiekierka> And yes, we have a handy fibonacci number table now
16:22:32 <AnMaster> ais523, the actual compiler is clang
16:23:52 <AnMaster> ais523, hm now it happens again, make install when using clang/ccc cause a recompile of most stuff
16:23:57 * oerjan hits AnMaster over the head with a sauce pan. *clang*
16:24:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, well lucky I had a helmet on
16:24:24 <AnMaster> otherwise it would have been "crack"
16:24:26 <oerjan> oh noes the sauce pan broke ===\_/\_/
16:24:55 <oerjan> i knew swedes have thick heads, thus no danger
16:25:46 <AnMaster> ais523, what about other tools?
16:26:14 <AnMaster> and are you sure AR=llvm-ar passed to configure will make it use llvm-ar?
16:27:02 <AnMaster> llvm-as, llvm-ar, llvm-ld, llvm-ranlib, should be used instead of the "native" ones
16:27:28 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/izlM5t18.html
16:27:57 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc
16:28:04 * oerjan is _shocked_ that ais523 didn't know about 3sat
16:28:42 <ais523> AnMaster: Automake's source for that is strange
16:28:53 <oerjan> AnMaster: famous np-complete problem
16:28:53 <ais523> maybe doing it as a cross-compile would work better?
16:28:55 <AnMaster> since I used RANLIB=llvm-ranlib
16:29:12 <ais523> configure build=i686-linux-pc-gnu host=llvm
16:29:24 <ais523> that almost works except the compiler has to be called llvm-cc for that to work
16:29:28 <AnMaster> ais523, err host is i686-linux-pc-gnu
16:29:46 <AnMaster> ais523, I got to be able to tell it to use a specific tool for ranlib and such
16:29:51 <ais523> well, host determines the set of tools you use to build
16:29:53 <AnMaster> I'm quite sure it works for other configure
16:30:01 <ais523> what happens if you do make RANLIB=llvm-ranlib?
16:30:34 <AnMaster> ais523, to configure? well it seems it use it in Makefile after all,
16:31:02 <AnMaster> ais523, so that explains why AR didn't help
16:31:26 <ais523> looks like I'll have to look into the automake source
16:31:29 <ais523> and do even more weird stuff
16:32:47 <AnMaster> ais523, setting AR have worked for other automake/autoconf based projects though
16:32:57 <AnMaster> so I suspect the issue is with how you use it
16:33:29 <ais523> I think I have something for it
16:33:33 <ais523> probably this is a bug in automake
16:34:01 <AnMaster> ais523, yet setting AR on command line works fine for many other automake based projects
16:34:13 <ais523> I'll look into it some time
16:35:52 <AnMaster> ais523, I edited directly in makefile
16:36:27 <AnMaster> ais523, also please see http://rafb.net/p/yaqSb731.html
16:36:43 <AnMaster> was something not built properly first time or?
16:37:05 <ais523> also messing with the build process tends to cause a recompile in automake
16:37:08 <AnMaster> ais523, every time I do make install it begins recompiling stuff
16:37:09 <ais523> also, check your system clock
16:37:29 <AnMaster> and it did the same for clang even before I set ar and such
16:38:13 <AnMaster> ais523, and even with llvm-ar I still get linking errors for intercal programs
16:38:28 <ais523> maybe I'll download llvm myself some time and have a go
16:38:31 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the command to dump the compiler command line?
16:38:41 <AnMaster> ais523, for clang you need svn version of llvm
16:38:49 <AnMaster> from same day for both main llvm and clang
16:38:51 <ais523> AnMaster: -### in gcc, I think
16:39:02 <ais523> not that that's a particularly easy option to type in bash
16:39:03 <AnMaster> ais523, well for dumping C file from intercal then
16:39:43 <AnMaster> ais523, well you use -lick there
16:39:49 <AnMaster> if I provide the path to the *.a instead
16:39:55 <ais523> was the library search path wrong?
16:40:01 <ais523> or does -l do something different?
16:40:06 <ais523> I have -L set to everywhere the library might be
16:40:18 <AnMaster> library search path looks right
16:41:01 <AnMaster> ccc beer.c -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/include/ick-0.29 -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin/../include -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/lib -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin/../lib -O2 -o beer -lick
16:41:33 <ais523> AnMaster: ick works if you dump everything into the same directory
16:41:44 <ais523> and two different algorithms for finding the libraries come out to the same path
16:42:07 <ais523> I use lots of tries to find the locations of stuff
16:42:16 <ais523> because NO SKELETON IN MY CLOSET is probably the most common ick error message ever
16:42:20 <ais523> due to people screwing up the install
16:42:29 <ais523> it even happened to me a few times...
16:42:41 <AnMaster> ais523, well a quick strace showed it failed to open ickwrap.c or something like that
16:42:49 <AnMaster> so I could see a make install was needed
16:44:11 <AnMaster> $ CCC_ECHO=1 ccc beer.c -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/include/ick-0.29 -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin/../include -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/lib -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/lib -O2 -o beer -lick
16:44:11 <AnMaster> clang -emit-llvm-bc -x c -o beer.o beer.c -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/include/ick-0.29 -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin -I/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin/../include
16:44:12 <AnMaster> llvm-ld -native -disable-internalize -o beer -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/lib -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/bin -L/home/anmaster/local/ick-clang/lib -lick beer.o
16:44:21 <AnMaster> that llvm-ld call does look bad indeed
16:44:36 * AnMaster test changing place between -lick and beer.o
16:45:19 <AnMaster> now to create a minimal test case so I can file a bug
16:46:03 <AnMaster> ais523, also ick should use the same CC as when it was compiled if $CC isn't set
16:46:17 <AnMaster> and if it isn't found fall back to plain /usr/bin/cc
16:49:27 <AnMaster> ais523, wow tcc was fast, it compiled ick in less than 5 seconds on this pentium3
16:50:37 <AnMaster> ICL000I DO CREATE (8200) GET CONTINUATION IN .1 GETTING .2
16:50:48 <ais523> AnMaster: wrong settings for the compilation
16:50:51 <AnMaster> CC='/home/anmaster/local/tcc/bin/tcc' /home/anmaster/local/ick-tcc/bin/ick -bm continuation.i
16:51:00 <ais523> enable CREATE statements
16:51:07 <ais523> without that they're going to parse as syntax errors
16:51:10 <AnMaster> ais523, also it compiled fine, just didn't run
16:52:27 <AnMaster> -F :unsupported on computers without sh or bash
16:52:32 <AnMaster> shouldn't it say something more
16:52:44 <ais523> AnMaster: well, the option is unsupported
16:52:48 <ais523> because your computer doesn't have sh or bash
16:52:57 <ais523> well, presumably it does but configure got confused
16:53:14 <AnMaster> GNU bash, version 3.2.39(1)-release (i686-pc-linux-gnu)
16:53:31 <AnMaster> ais523, also how the heck did configure think it ran without sh?
16:54:20 <AnMaster> -C :ick_clockface output (e.g. use IIII instead of IV) <-- hm??
16:54:20 <ais523> it checks for #! on shell scripts
16:54:32 <ais523> AnMaster: oh dear, that's a find and replace gone astray
16:54:40 <ais523> and it's a superstition thing
16:54:48 -!- ehird has changed nick to Phill.
16:54:51 <ais523> writing IV upside-down offends Jupiter, or something like that
16:54:57 -!- Phill has changed nick to ehird.
16:55:01 <AnMaster> and what about search and replace?
16:55:50 <oklocod> oerjan: polynomial time would be impressive enough, methinks
16:56:20 <oklocod> also 3sat is actually np-COMPLETE, right? or is it just np
16:56:41 <AnMaster> ais523, what was the option for using the c syslib now again?
16:57:51 <oklocod> but then my booker had the caption "the first np complete problem", and there a different problem there, while 3sat had already been explained
16:58:03 <ais523> syslibc has to be after the INTERCAL program on the command line
16:58:08 <oklocod> but, i guess it was more like "the first np complete problem we prove to be np-complete"
16:58:11 <ais523> but the -eE has to be before
16:58:15 <AnMaster> ais523, and in current directory?
16:58:27 <ais523> it's ick -eE primes.i syslibc
16:58:34 <ais523> syslibc is found automatically from where it's been installed
16:58:40 <ais523> no extension means expansion library
16:58:41 <AnMaster> tcc: invalid option -- '--std=c89'
16:58:41 <AnMaster> tcc: invalid option -- '--std=c89'
16:58:48 <AnMaster> tcc: unsupported linker option '-z,muldefs'
16:58:59 <ais523> ah, -e is only intended to work with gcc and gld
16:59:06 <ais523> as opposed to everything else which is generic
16:59:12 <ais523> I may manage to generalise it some day
16:59:12 <AnMaster> ais523, in practise it works with icc too
16:59:18 <oklocod> also the example problem was that one where you have gates and sources, and try to get a result, which is actually quite trivial to compile to 3sat
16:59:28 <oerjan> oklocod: reduction from sat to 3sat is rather easy iirc
16:59:37 <oklocod> oerjan: yes, but that's not SAT
17:00:09 <oklocod> because you have a dag, which can contain all kinds of boolean logic, you need to do some manipulation; then again it is a simpler step from an arbitrary expression to sat than it's from sat to 2sat
17:00:11 <oerjan> no but SAT was the first
17:00:37 <AnMaster> ais523, clang if you work around the bug in cc
17:00:46 <oklocod> so you think the caption could be about the actual *first* np-complete problem found?
17:00:58 <oerjan> well if it is about SAT yes
17:01:05 <oklocod> well, this is really a bfimmery point.
17:01:11 <AnMaster> ais523, but working around that bug is non-trivial in ccc, because my hackish fix to it breaks for other programs
17:01:23 <AnMaster> so I can't really fix it better
17:01:28 <AnMaster> since I don't know python well
17:01:57 <oklocod> oerjan: sat is just 3-sat with larger clauses right? then it's technically not the same, because the gate thing has nested operations and suchamathings.
17:02:23 <AnMaster> ais523, worked out the issue with -F?
17:02:27 <oklocod> bfimmery means something i don't care about, i only care about things that mean something
17:02:36 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, so darcs pull will fix it?
17:02:36 <ais523> AnMaster: not now, I've just caused /huge/ chaos in #really-a-cow
17:02:45 <ais523> ais523: I was replying to oklocod
17:02:54 <ais523> I don't really have time to work on C-INTERCAL build today
17:02:58 <AnMaster> ais523, *generic inquiry about that odd channel name*
17:03:09 <ais523> AnMaster: ehird chose it
17:03:23 <AnMaster> ais523, and what happened? + do I want to join?
17:03:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Agora-related.
17:03:33 <ais523> what happened was a big fuss
17:03:35 <ehird> If you don't have an interest in Agora nomic, no.
17:03:37 <ais523> and do you want to join, probably not
17:03:57 <oklocod> oerjan: do you know about network flow problems?
17:04:12 <AnMaster> ais523, --help seems to indicate -F is broken for all my icks
17:04:21 <ais523> must be an autoconf bug then
17:04:22 <oerjan> what the heck is #really-a-cow
17:04:22 <AnMaster> ais523, but if I want to debug it, where should I look?
17:04:26 <oklocod> (i'm just generally interested in mapping people's knowledge compared to mine)
17:04:31 <ais523> and probably config.log
17:04:40 <oklocod> oerjan: it's a scam, it's a hoax
17:04:58 <AnMaster> ais523, that is over 2600 lines
17:04:59 <ais523> there's a line saying something like "checking if #! works in shell scripts"
17:05:12 <ais523> oerjan: it's an Agoran public forum.
17:05:20 <AnMaster> buildconfig:4996: checking whether #! works in shell scripts
17:05:28 <AnMaster> buildconfig:4996: checking whether #! works in shell scripts
17:05:30 <oerjan> oklocod: the name network flow problems sounds familiar
17:05:47 <ais523> yep, huh over here too
17:05:58 <ais523> probably config.h broke, or something like that
17:06:00 <AnMaster> ais523, using #ifdef when you meant #ifndef or something?
17:06:07 <AnMaster> ais523, what define in config.h?
17:06:09 <ais523> yep, that seems a likely possibility
17:06:13 <ais523> AnMaster: it's generated by configure
17:06:18 <ais523> and basically holds all the configure results
17:06:19 <AnMaster> ais523, yes with lots of define
17:06:26 <ais523> something_INTERPRETER, IIRC
17:06:27 <oklocod> you have a graph, edges have capacities, you try to find a maximum flow from a source node to the sink node, a flow means you send N units of data through different routes, and try to maximize the number of units that reach the sink
17:06:29 <AnMaster> so what is the one supposed to be shell script
17:06:44 <oklocod> an edge can only carry so much units of flow
17:06:45 <AnMaster> #define HAVE_SYS_INTERPRETER /**/
17:07:03 <AnMaster> defining it to a comment is sure to break something
17:07:20 <AnMaster> defining it to 1 seems more logical
17:07:23 <oklocod> has tons of different applications, most of which are in the grey zone i automatically assume np-complete.
17:07:48 <oerjan> oklocod: it does sound familiar
17:08:42 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that is strange
17:08:53 <ais523> htf did configure manage that?
17:09:16 <oklocod> oerjan: you vaguely recall how it works, then?
17:09:36 <AnMaster> ais523, however configure differs on my other system with older autoconf
17:09:44 <AnMaster> so I guess they changed something in later versions
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17:09:49 <AnMaster> anmaster@phoenix ~/ick/build_gcc $ grep HAVE_SYS_INTERPRETER ../c-intercal/configure
17:09:49 <AnMaster> #define HAVE_SYS_INTERPRETER /**/
17:09:55 <AnMaster> arvid@tux ~/src/c-intercal $ grep HAVE_SYS_INTERPRETER *
17:09:55 <AnMaster> configure:#define HAVE_SYS_INTERPRETER
17:10:30 <oerjan> oklocod: hmph, the wikipedia articles on flow networks say nothing about NP-completeness
17:10:46 <oerjan> perhaps it's a simpler class
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17:11:15 <AnMaster> ais523, also both configure and buildaux/buildconfig lacked +x and that caused errors at configure time until I fixed it
17:11:27 <ais523> AnMaster: that's darcs' fault, it'll be fine in release tarballs
17:11:32 <ais523> but it can't track +x for some reason
17:11:32 <oklocod> it has tons of uses, can be done in p, and many of the problems it's used on seem np-y to me.
17:12:14 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway it just re-generated autotools on my other system too, lets see if that mess up HAVE_SYS_INTERPRETER or not
17:13:06 <AnMaster> ais523, my conclusion is something changed in 2.63 compared with 2.61
17:13:23 <AnMaster> configure.ac:AC_DEFINE([HAVE_SYS_INTERPRETER], [], [Define if #! works on your system.])
17:15:13 <AnMaster> looks like you don't set it to any value ais523 ?
17:15:31 <ais523> there should be an AC_SUBST somewhere which sets the value
17:15:35 <ais523> from a shell variable with the same name
17:15:42 <ais523> hmm... ah, I know what's happening
17:15:50 <ais523> it must have been obsoleted and removed
17:16:00 <ais523> and autoupdate decided to effectively comment it out
17:17:05 <AnMaster> ais523, if it did it would have told you?
17:17:16 <ais523> I'll look into that too sometime
17:18:36 <AnMaster> ais523, autoupdate change stuff on 2.63 though
17:18:52 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/h5bbOR62.html
17:19:31 <AnMaster> ais523, no idea how much that change will affect you
17:20:08 <ais523> AnMaster: ugh, "safely assume" is the wrong direction
17:20:18 <AnMaster> ais523, well that is your issue :P
17:20:18 <ais523> maybe I should have a library of obsolete autoconf tests
17:20:29 <ais523> so things work where the safe assumptions are wrong..
17:20:36 <ais523> AnMaster: nah, they won't change autoconf just for INTERCAL
17:20:41 <ais523> I sort of prefer it this way...
17:20:46 <AnMaster> ais523, but it breaks on some platforms?
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19:00:09 <oklocod> someone should write a book about agora, i mean, it would be interesting to see its evolution.
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19:17:02 <ehird> the agoran weekly journal
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19:28:15 <CO2Games> hey is there a brainfuck bot in here
19:28:50 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
19:29:09 <ais523> I think that answers your question
19:30:43 <CO2Games> ^def bf badrot13 ,[+++++++++++++.,]
19:30:44 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
19:30:57 <CO2Games> ^def badrot13 bf ,[+++++++++++++.,]
19:31:06 <ehird> CO2Games: Yes, that is a bad rot13.
19:31:10 <ais523> ^badrot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
19:31:15 <ais523> ^rot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
19:31:16 <fungot> nopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklm
19:31:26 <ais523> we have some commands programmed into fungot already
19:31:26 <fungot> ais523: the chamber is closed. i am just dealing with the stack
19:31:46 <ais523> no md5, though, I'm afraid
19:31:58 <ais523> it wouldn't fit in one line of IRC, I don't think
19:32:00 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc aaa enctst copy badrot13
19:32:10 <fungot> +[<+33.]+[>+33.][]+10[>+18>+7>+<3-]
19:32:20 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
19:32:25 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
19:32:27 <fungot> >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][]
19:32:58 <ehird> CO2Games: Brainfuck.
19:33:00 <fungot> ais523: what's this supposed to impress?"
19:33:03 <ehird> with +++++ turned into +5
19:33:04 <ais523> but with run-length encoding
19:33:23 <ais523> but fungot stores it as +5
19:33:24 <fungot> ais523: do you plan on mutating an object's set of parents?
19:33:27 <ais523> isn't that right, optbot?
19:33:28 <optbot> ais523: and his binary is stripped
19:34:38 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
19:38:26 <CO2Games> ^def chtopic bf +++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>++++++++++++.+.++++.------------------.+++++++++++++.+++++.>+++[>+++++++++++<-]>.
19:38:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | so not a tree.
19:38:55 <fungot> +9[>+11<-]>+12.+.+4.-18.+13.+5.>+3[>+11<-]>.
19:40:03 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | befunge*.
19:40:28 <CO2Games> damn I got it right on my first try
19:40:34 <CO2Games> I did some sort of magic or shit
19:40:35 <optbot> ehird: Note to self: Don't do that :P
19:40:38 <ehird> optbot is shorter.
19:40:49 <optbot> CO2Games: while (*s++){}
19:42:04 <CO2Games> what other languages does fungot support?
19:42:05 <fungot> CO2Games: abum pasted " list?" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord
19:42:46 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
19:42:53 <ais523> there isn't an ^undef apparently
19:43:01 <ais523> fungot was written in Befunge
19:43:01 <fungot> ais523: but there are more issues than you've got teeth!
19:43:11 <ais523> so it's not surprising that it doesn't have all that many features, as it admits itself
19:43:22 <CO2Games> ^def top bf +++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>++++++++++++.+.++++.------------------.+++++++++++++.+++++.>+++[>+++++++++++<-]>.
19:43:40 <ais523> fizzie: go and boast at CO2Games, you deserve it
19:44:07 <fungot> CO2Games: thanks, i shall arbitrarily post a link to
19:44:18 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>->+>>+[<]<-]>>.>>---.+++++++..+++.>.<<-.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>++..
19:45:26 <ais523> ^def topiccode bf ++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>->+>>+[<]<-]>>.>>---.+++++++..+++.>.<<-.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>++.
19:46:36 <ais523> it's unusual, actually
19:46:46 <ais523> rare to see nested loops in a BF-based hello world
19:46:59 <ais523> especially with unbalanced loops like [<]
19:50:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and !markend Conversation theme.
19:56:43 <CO2Games> ^def compat_cat >+[++++++++++>,----------][<]>>[.>]
19:56:44 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
19:56:50 <CO2Games> ^def compat_cat bf >+[++++++++++>,----------][<]>>[.>]
19:57:46 <CO2Games> ^def compat_cat bf >+[>,][<]>>[.>]
19:57:53 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
19:58:06 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc aaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat
19:58:39 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
20:00:34 <ais523> ^def trulyawfulrot13 ,[.+,]
20:00:35 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
20:00:39 <ais523> ^def trulyawfulrot13 bf ,[.+,]
20:00:45 <ais523> ^trulyawfulrot13 abcde
20:01:05 <CO2Games> yeah that rot13 is more of a rot1
20:01:17 <ais523> because I put the + in the wrong place
20:01:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I imagine it doesn't have a full first-order logic system taking full advantage of the Curry-Howard isomorphism and all..
20:02:52 <ehird> ^def rot26 bf ,[.,]
20:03:02 <CO2Games> what is the character for space?
20:05:42 <fizzie> Yes, uh, http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt are fungot's sources.
20:05:43 <fungot> fizzie: the only portable way is tricky
20:06:25 <fizzie> Indeed there is no ^undef, I would have had to copy things around since I don't want to leave empty spaces where the commands are defined... around row 2000 or so in Funge-space.
20:06:31 <CO2Games> ^def me bf +.++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+++++.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.,[.,]+.
20:06:45 <CO2Games> hmm I think I screwed up somewhere
20:07:33 <fungot> +.+6[>+10<-]>+5.+2.+17.-11.+6.-.>+4[>+8<-]>.,[.,]+.
20:08:00 <CO2Games> ^def me bf [+]+.++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+++++.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.,[.,]+.
20:09:17 <fizzie> 75 == K; you're doing p[0] = 7; p[1] = p[0]*10; p[1] += 5; putchar(p[1]); in the beginning.
20:09:39 <CO2Games> ^def me bf [+]+.+++++[>++++++++++<-]>+++++.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.,[.,]+.
20:09:58 <fizzie> Yes, it filters all <32 into a '.'.
20:10:33 <fizzie> People kept making it do things; even ^raw was unlimited in the beginning.
20:14:18 <ais523> ^def echochohoo >[,>]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<]
20:14:18 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
20:14:19 <fizzie> So that there's a space between the repetitions, it looks silly otherwise.
20:14:24 <ais523> ^def echochohoo bf >[,>]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<]
20:14:31 <ais523> ^echochohohoo Hello, world!
20:14:59 <ais523> ^def echochohoo bf >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<]
20:15:04 <ais523> ^echochohohoo Hello, world!
20:15:12 <ehird> roflolololololololololomgwtfbbq
20:15:24 <fizzie> No, the command invocation was just wrong.
20:15:31 <ais523> ^echochohoo Hello, world!
20:15:31 <fungot> Hello, world!ello, world!llo, world!lo, world!o, world!, world! world!world!orld!rld!ld!d!!
20:15:56 <fungot> Hello, world!ello, world!llo, world!lo, world!o, world!, world! world!world!orld!rld!ld!d!!
20:16:18 <fungot> Hello, world!.ello, world!.llo, world!.lo, world!.o, world!., world!. world!.world!.orld!.rld!.ld!.d!.!..
20:16:46 <fizzie> Hmm, it shouldn't trim anything.
20:17:02 <ais523> fizzie: probably IRC trims trailing spaces
20:17:21 <fungot> !@#$%^&*()_/*-@#$%^&*()_/*-#$%^&*()_/*-$%^&*()_/*-%^&*()_/*-^&*()_/*-&*()_/*-*()_/*-()_/*-)_/*-_/*-/*-*--
20:17:30 <fizzie> ais523: I'm not sure about Freenode; IRCnet didn't, because I used to escape our "answers all things which ends in a ?" bot by adding a space.
20:17:53 <ais523> ^echochohoo >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<]
20:17:53 <fungot> >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<],[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<][>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<]>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<],]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<]]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<][[<]>.[-]>[.>]<][<]>.[-]>[.>]<]<]>.[-]>[.>]<]]>.[-]>[.>]<]>.[-]>[.> ...
20:18:27 <fizzie> It's something channel-specific, actually.
20:18:27 <CO2Games> ^def lolercakes bf ,[.,][.,].,],]]
20:18:36 <ais523> that's always going to lead to an unbalanced program if you have loops, really
20:18:37 <fizzie> 22:19:43 <fizzie> ^echochohoo foo
20:18:37 <fizzie> 22:19:43 <fungot> foo oo o
20:18:38 <fungot> fizzie: i like python. how does a number of films i really don't
20:18:46 <fizzie> That had a simple space after it, in privmsg.
20:19:00 <CO2Games> ^def lolercakes bf ,[.,][.,].,],]]
20:19:07 <ais523> ^echochohoo PLEASE NOTE: This is a comment.
20:19:07 <fungot> PLEASE NOTE: This is a comment.LEASE NOTE: This is a comment.EASE NOTE: This is a comment.ASE NOTE: This is a comment.SE NOTE: This is a comment.E NOTE: This is a comment. NOTE: This is a comment.NOTE: This ...
20:19:10 <CO2Games> ^def lolercakes bf ,[.,][.,].,[],[]
20:19:14 <ais523> it doesn't work as well on INTERCAL
20:19:22 <ais523> ^echochohoo //\\//\\//\\
20:19:22 <fungot> //\\//\\//\\/\\//\\//\\\\//\\//\\\//\\//\\//\\//\\/\\//\\\\//\\\//\\//\\/\\\\\
20:19:24 <CO2Games> ^lolercakes omg penis masterzlol
20:19:34 <CO2Games> interesting it autoappends a dot
20:19:42 <fizzie> The dot is the 0 you print there.
20:19:54 <CO2Games> ^lolercakes eww that comment was gross as hell.
20:19:55 <fungot> eww that comment was gross as hell..
20:20:09 <fizzie> After the first loop ends in a 0, it skips the other loops and only runs that one '.' in the latter ., not inside a loop.
20:20:18 <fizzie> And of course the two ,s too but those do not do much.
20:20:26 <fungot> Un..c..d..n..c..d....c..d...c..d..c..d....d...d..d.....
20:20:46 <ais523> hmm... no Latin-1 support either, it looks like
20:21:07 <CO2Games> ^echochohoo Kirby time :D! <('.'<)
20:21:08 <fungot> Kirby time :D! <('.'<)irby time :D! <('.'<)rby time :D! <('.'<)by time :D! <('.'<)y time :D! <('.'<) time :D! <('.'<)time :D! <('.'<)ime :D! <('.'<)me :D! <('.'<)e :D! <('.'<) :D! <('.'<):D! <('.'<)D! <('.'< ...
20:21:22 <ais523> wow, looks like I've invented a new way to spam the channel
20:21:31 <fungot> >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<]
20:21:47 <CO2Games> ^echochohoo Kirby ftw <('.'<)___
20:21:47 <fungot> Kirby ftw <('.'<)___irby ftw <('.'<)___rby ftw <('.'<)___by ftw <('.'<)___y ftw <('.'<)___ ftw <('.'<)___ftw <('.'<)___tw <('.'<)___w <('.'<)___ <('.'<)___<('.'<)___('.'<)___'.'<)___.'<)___'<)___<)___)______ ...
20:21:51 <fizzie> It might cut >127 too, not sure about that.
20:21:54 <CO2Games> ^echochohoo Kirby ftw <('.'<)_
20:21:54 <fungot> Kirby ftw <('.'<)_irby ftw <('.'<)_rby ftw <('.'<)_by ftw <('.'<)_y ftw <('.'<)_ ftw <('.'<)_ftw <('.'<)_tw <('.'<)_w <('.'<)_ <('.'<)_<('.'<)_('.'<)_'.'<)_.'<)_'<)_<)_)__
20:22:17 <CO2Games> ^echochohoo Peanut butter jelly Time!
20:22:17 <fungot> Peanut butter jelly Time!eanut butter jelly Time!anut butter jelly Time!nut butter jelly Time!ut butter jelly Time!t butter jelly Time! butter jelly Time!butter jelly Time!utter jelly Time!tter jelly Time!te ...
20:22:29 <CO2Games> ^echochohoo Peanutbutter-Jelly Time!
20:22:30 <fungot> Peanutbutter-Jelly Time!eanutbutter-Jelly Time!anutbutter-Jelly Time!nutbutter-Jelly Time!utbutter-Jelly Time!tbutter-Jelly Time!butter-Jelly Time!utter-Jelly Time!tter-Jelly Time!ter-Jelly Time!er-Jelly Tim ...
20:22:35 <optbot> ais523: "and the cell size isn't limited to 32-bit signed" what do you mean?
20:22:35 <optbot> fungot: sort of a difficult question when it comes to esolangs
20:22:35 <fungot> optbot: thats a good anwser would be missed.), though it has something to do
20:22:36 <optbot> fungot: Just have the kernel support Linux-style system calls as well.
20:22:36 <fungot> optbot: it's a change in sunterlib, and couldn't tell you
20:22:37 <CO2Games> ^echochohoo Peanutbutter-Jelly Time_
20:22:37 <optbot> fungot: ~raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :
20:22:37 <fungot> Peanutbutter-Jelly Time_eanutbutter-Jelly Time_anutbutter-Jelly Time_nutbutter-Jelly Time_utbutter-Jelly Time_tbutter-Jelly Time_butter-Jelly Time_utter-Jelly Time_tter-Jelly Time_ter-Jelly Time_er-Jelly Tim ...
20:22:37 <fungot> optbot: perhaps that you haven't written a c compiler
20:22:38 <optbot> fungot: TRDS is definitely extensive
20:22:38 <fungot> optbot: and isn't it really late there
20:22:38 <optbot> fungot: it was a quote
20:22:54 * pikhq recall his senior year of high school...
20:22:58 <fungot> ~~~OMGHAX~~~~~OMGHAX~~~~OMGHAX~~~OMGHAX~~~MGHAX~~~GHAX~~~HAX~~~AX~~~X~~~~~~~~~
20:23:05 <pikhq> Student body president was running unopposed.
20:23:10 <CO2Games> ^echochohoo /===================
20:23:10 <fungot> /============================================================================================================================================================================================================== ...
20:23:16 <pikhq> Therefore, his campaign speech: Peanut Butter jelly time.
20:23:29 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:23:33 <fungot> /=============================================================================
20:23:34 <ais523> heh, the person running for chair of my university roleplay society was unopposed
20:23:40 <ais523> and promised beer and kittens
20:23:47 <ais523> some people got beer, but the kittens never turned up
20:23:50 <fungot> /===========/===========/==========/=========/========/=======/======/=====/====/===/==/=//
20:24:00 <ais523> ^echochohoo echochohoo
20:24:01 <fungot> echochohoochochohoohochohooochohoochohoohohooohoohooooo
20:24:08 <ais523> oerjan: I added a new command to fungot
20:24:08 <fungot> ais523: i/ o operations? ( like a lambda in lisp
20:24:18 <fungot> /=======/=======/======/=====/====/===/==/=//
20:24:20 <pikhq> Also, the hall association president here ran unopposed...
20:24:24 <ais523> which people seem to like a lot more than its behaviour would suggest
20:24:27 <fungot> /.....===/.....===/....===/...===/..===/.===/===/==/=//
20:24:31 <fungot> /.....=/.....=/....=/...=/..=/.=/=//
20:24:36 <oerjan> for a moment i wondered if fungot ignored space after command names
20:24:36 <fungot> oerjan: i believe all the major implementations have?
20:24:41 <pikhq> And man, is he funny.
20:24:50 <pikhq> Good roommate, too.
20:24:52 <CO2Games> ^echochohoo ****/*/*/*/****/*/**/*////**/**///*/**/*/**/*
20:24:52 <fungot> ****/*/*/*/****/*/**/*////**/**///*/**/*/**/****/*/*/*/****/*/**/*////**/**///*/**/*/**/***/*/*/*/****/*/**/*////**/**///*/**/*/**/**/*/*/*/****/*/**/*////**/**///*/**/*/**/*/*/*/*/****/*/**/*////**/**///*/* ...
20:24:57 <oerjan> fungot: of INTERCAL and FORTRAN, maybe
20:24:57 <fungot> oerjan: eval ( load " /etc/ passwd csi -r awk -s fnord'
20:25:01 <fungot> SPAM SPAMPAM SPAMAM SPAMM SPAM SPAMSPAMPAMAMM
20:25:16 <fungot> SPATULA CITY SPATULA CITY SPATULA CITY SPATULA CITYSPATULA CITYPATULA CITYATULA CITYTULA CITYULA CITYLA CITYA CITY CITYCITYITYTYY
20:25:34 <fungot> 3.14159.14159141594159159599
20:26:08 <fungot> OMG PENISMG PENISG PENIS PENISPENISENISNISISS
20:26:18 <fungot> Look, a monkey!!ook, a monkey!!ok, a monkey!!k, a monkey!!, a monkey!! a monkey!!a monkey!! monkey!!monkey!!onkey!!nkey!!key!!ey!!y!!!!!
20:26:19 <oerjan> ais523: isn't there an overproduction of free kittens in england too?
20:26:32 <ais523> oerjan: not that I know of
20:26:58 <fungot> >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<]
20:27:03 <fizzie> Our cat is from the local state-run (or actually muncipality-run) "found animals without owners" place.
20:27:51 <fizzie> There were some nominal expenses, but mostly "free".
20:28:29 <oerjan> norway has a big abandoned kitten problem, at least
20:29:34 <fizzie> Finland too, especially at the end of summer.
20:31:26 <CO2Games> ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]++++++++++>[.>]<]
20:31:35 <fungot> lol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol.ol ...
20:31:54 <oerjan> where does that . come from?
20:32:03 <ais523> oerjan: fungot outputting control codes
20:32:04 <fungot> ais523: and i think i'll use the sound effects. and i'm not tellin. wait until early next week.
20:32:04 <fizzie> oerjan: It maps everything <32 to a dot.
20:32:36 <fungot> tojotohoojotohojotohootohotohoohohoo
20:32:46 <fizzie> With newlines, it was too easy to output strings like "heh\nPRIVMSG #ubuntu :U GUYS SUKC BALLZ".
20:33:19 <ais523> fizzie: surely it should repeat the PRIVMSG #esoteric : string if a newline is encountered?
20:33:29 <oerjan> you could have converted just newlines
20:33:44 <oerjan> ais523: well but then he gets extra flood problems too
20:33:52 <CO2Games> ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>[.>]<]
20:33:55 <fungot> lol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ol ...
20:34:09 <ais523> CO2Games: no it doesn't
20:34:10 <fizzie> For some values of "works".
20:34:11 <CO2Games> Now I just need to get it to fix that damned outut
20:34:27 <ais523> ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>[.>]<]
20:34:46 <fizzie> ^echo_cho_ho_o Interesting output.
20:34:46 <fungot> I nteresting output.n teresting output.t eresting output.e resting output.r esting output.e sting output.s ting output.t ing output.i ng output.n g output.g output. output.o utput.u tput.t put.p ut.u t.t . ...
20:34:48 <ais523> heh, it puts the space after the first character
20:34:53 <ais523> ^echo_cho_ho_o brainfuck
20:34:53 <fungot> b rainfuckr ainfucka infucki nfuckn fuckf ucku ckc kk
20:35:09 <fizzie> Sounds like someone's nick.
20:35:12 <ehird> Rain fucking? that's a new fetish
20:35:18 <ehird> I guess rainfuckr is a flickr clone for rain fucking porn.
20:35:23 <ehird> fungot: you are sick
20:35:23 <fungot> ehird: you can never be backed out, and start hand-compiling that c code could call a different function
20:35:36 <oerjan> ehird: i'm sure that's pretty old really
20:36:12 <oerjan> fungot: what happened to your fnords btw?
20:36:13 <fungot> oerjan: assuming me and forcer wanted to speak in scheme
20:36:25 <CO2Games> ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[-]>[.>]<]
20:36:29 <fungot> lollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollol ...
20:36:33 <ais523> oerjan: the more data fungot gets the less likely it would be to be fnordy
20:36:33 <fungot> ais523: that doesn't matter
20:36:46 <ais523> ah, obviously I'm wrong then...
20:37:08 <CO2Games> ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>[.>]<]
20:37:10 <fungot> lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lo ...
20:37:16 <oerjan> ais523: i think you could calculate that from Zipf's law or something
20:37:27 <CO2Games> ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>.[-]>[.>]<]
20:37:40 <ais523> in theory I was taught Zipf's law last year
20:39:00 <CO2Games> ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>.[-][.>]<]
20:39:10 <CO2Games> ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>.[-]>[.>]<]
20:40:07 <CO2Games> ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<][-]>.>[.>]<++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.]
20:40:15 <fungot> lollolololo.lo.,lo,LloLllollolololo.lo.,lo,LloLllollolololo.lo.,lo,LloLllollolololo.lo.,lo,LloLllollolololo.lo.,lo,LloLllollolololo.lo.,lo,LloLllollololo ...
20:40:47 <CO2Games> ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[<][[-]>.>[.>][<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.]
20:41:19 <CO2Games> ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[-]>.>[.>][<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.]
20:41:23 <fungot> ol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...
20:42:39 <CO2Games> ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[-]>.>[.>][<]+[>]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.]
20:42:41 <fungot> ol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...
20:43:04 <CO2Games> ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[-]>.>[.>][<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>]
20:43:30 <CO2Games> ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[-]>.>[.>]<[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>]
20:43:43 <fungot> >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<]
20:43:58 <CO2Games> ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>[.>]<]
20:44:06 <ais523> ^def echo_cho_ho_o >,[>,]<[[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>.[-]>[.>]<]
20:44:07 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
20:44:14 <ais523> ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[>,]<[[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>.[-]>[.>]<]
20:44:24 <ais523> see, it's not hard at all
20:44:28 <ais523> ^echo_cho_ho_o Hello, world!
20:44:28 <fungot> Hello, world! ello, world! llo, world! lo, world! o, world! , world! world! world! orld! rld! ld! d! !
20:44:36 <CO2Games> there's a space at the first position
20:44:45 <CO2Games> Which was what I was trying to fix
20:44:49 <ais523> ah, doesn't show up on my client
20:45:22 <ais523> ^def echo_cho_ho_o bf >,[.>,]<[[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[-]>[.>]<]
20:45:25 <ais523> ^echo_cho_ho_o Hello, world!
20:45:25 <fungot> Hello, world! ello, world! llo, world! lo, world! o, world! , world! world! world! orld! rld! ld! d! !
20:45:30 -!- mu has joined.
20:46:17 <CO2Games> ^echo_cho_ho_o fakdfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfdfkasdhfsdf
20:46:18 <fungot> fakdfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfdfkasdhfsdf akdfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfdfkasdhfsdf kdfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfdfkasdhfsdf dfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfdfkasdhfsdf fhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfdfkasdhfsdf hjlkdsh ...
20:46:22 <CO2Games> ^echo_cho_ho_o fakdfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfd
20:46:23 <fungot> fakdfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfd akdfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfd kdfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfd dfhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfd fhjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfd hjlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfd jlkdshfkjasdhfkjdhfdajhfd lkds ...
20:46:25 <CO2Games> ^echo_cho_ho_o fakdfhjlkdshfkja
20:46:26 <fungot> fakdfhjlkdshfkja akdfhjlkdshfkja kdfhjlkdshfkja dfhjlkdshfkja fhjlkdshfkja hjlkdshfkja jlkdshfkja lkdshfkja kdshfkja dshfkja shfkja hfkja fkja kja ja a
20:46:32 <CO2Games> ^echo_cho_ho_o fakdfhjlkdshfkjasdasd
20:46:32 <fungot> fakdfhjlkdshfkjasdasd akdfhjlkdshfkjasdasd kdfhjlkdshfkjasdasd dfhjlkdshfkjasdasd fhjlkdshfkjasdasd hjlkdshfkjasdasd jlkdshfkjasdasd lkdshfkjasdasd kdshfkjasdasd dshfkjasdasd shfkjasdasd hfkjasdasd fkjasdasd ...
20:46:34 <CO2Games> ^echo_cho_ho_o fakdfhjlkdshfkjasdas
20:46:34 <fungot> fakdfhjlkdshfkjasdas akdfhjlkdshfkjasdas kdfhjlkdshfkjasdas dfhjlkdshfkjasdas fhjlkdshfkjasdas hjlkdshfkjasdas jlkdshfkjasdas lkdshfkjasdas kdshfkjasdas dshfkjasdas shfkjasdas hfkjasdas fkjasdas kjasdas jasd ...
20:46:36 <CO2Games> ^echo_cho_ho_o fakdfhjlkdshfkjasda
20:46:36 <fungot> fakdfhjlkdshfkjasda akdfhjlkdshfkjasda kdfhjlkdshfkjasda dfhjlkdshfkjasda fhjlkdshfkjasda hjlkdshfkjasda jlkdshfkjasda lkdshfkjasda kdshfkjasda dshfkjasda shfkjasda hfkjasda fkjasda kjasda jasda asda sda da ...
20:46:42 <CO2Games> ^echo_cho_ho_o fakdfhjlkdshfkjasd
20:46:42 <ais523> ^echo_cho_ho_o 0123456789
20:46:42 <fungot> fakdfhjlkdshfkjasd akdfhjlkdshfkjasd kdfhjlkdshfkjasd dfhjlkdshfkjasd fhjlkdshfkjasd hjlkdshfkjasd jlkdshfkjasd lkdshfkjasd kdshfkjasd dshfkjasd shfkjasd hfkjasd fkjasd kjasd jasd asd sd d
20:46:42 <fungot> 0123456789 123456789 23456789 3456789 456789 56789 6789 789 89 9
20:47:13 <CO2Games> ^echo_cho_ho_o fedcba9876543210
20:47:13 <fungot> fedcba9876543210 edcba9876543210 dcba9876543210 cba9876543210 ba9876543210 a9876543210 9876543210 876543210 76543210 6543210 543210 43210 3210 210 10 0
20:47:33 <CO2Games> ^echo_cho_ho_o two plus two equals ten
20:47:33 <fungot> two plus two equals ten wo plus two equals ten o plus two equals ten plus two equals ten plus two equals ten lus two equals ten us two equals ten s two equals ten two equals ten two equals ten wo equals te ...
20:47:48 <fungot> 2 + 2 = 10 + 2 = 10 + 2 = 10 2 = 10 2 = 10 = 10 = 10 10 10 0
20:48:21 <fungot> >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][]
20:48:33 <fungot> echochohoo chochohoo hochohoo ochohoo chohoo hohoo ohoo hoo oo o
20:48:49 <fungot> echo_cho_ho_o cho_cho_ho_o ho_cho_ho_o o_cho_ho_o _cho_ho_o cho_ho_o ho_ho_o o_ho_o _ho_o ho_o o_o _o o
20:48:58 * oerjan is surprised fib is that short
20:49:11 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
20:49:12 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
20:49:30 <fizzie> It's pretty neat when you consider it's only 8-bit cells.
20:49:50 <fizzie> (Not my doing, though.)
20:50:09 <oerjan> maybe it does arithmetic on the decimal expansion?
20:50:20 <fizzie> Probably, haven't bothered to figure it out.
20:51:29 <oerjan> oh it's an old program maybe?
20:52:27 <oerjan> i guess there is no hope of fitting the Underload interpreter in there
20:54:40 -!- Chocolate_Syrup has quit (No route to host).
20:56:29 <ais523> too long for one IRC line
20:56:37 <ais523> but not all that much longer
20:56:37 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
20:56:55 <fizzie> Then you can ^def foo bf str:0
20:56:57 <ais523> let me find the link to it
20:57:27 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/raw/367774
20:57:35 <ais523> that's designed as an EgoBot daemon
20:57:43 <ais523> for fungot use, probably Keymaker's original would work better
20:57:43 <fungot> ais523: ok? and? :p i like pianos. and the fnord used
20:57:47 <CO2Games> ^def baddoubles +[[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<[<+>-].]
20:57:47 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
20:57:52 <CO2Games> ^def baddoubles bf +[[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<[<+>-].]
20:58:04 <fizzie> ais523: How does an EgoBot daemon work?
20:58:17 <CO2Games> ^def baddoubles bf +[[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<[<+>-]<.]
20:58:17 -!- foobartest has joined.
20:58:22 <ais523> fizzie: it gets input continuously
20:58:29 <ais523> and outputs continuously too
20:58:40 <ais523> if you send more than one command it goes to the same instance of the program
20:58:49 <ais523> so my code needed to basically split at newlines and process each separately
20:58:58 <ais523> apart from that it's a wrapper around Keymaker's code
20:59:10 <fizzie> Hmm.. so should http://www.bf-hacks.org/hacks/uload.b
20:59:12 <CO2Games> I need a way to print the number
20:59:13 <ais523> http://www.bf-hacks.org/hacks/uload.b
20:59:21 <ais523> and I think it would work with fungot
20:59:21 <fungot> ais523: ah of course, ( i call it
20:59:34 <ais523> ^str 1 set >,[>,]<[<]>[<++++[>--------<-]+>-[-------[--[<+++[>----<-]+>[<
20:59:34 <fizzie> I'll try to input it in a privmsg, so I don't spam the channel.
20:59:34 <fungot> Set: >,[>,]<[<]>[<++++[>--------<-]+>-[-------[--[<+++[>----<-]+>[<
20:59:39 <fizzie> Well, ok, go ahead. :p
20:59:51 <ais523> or we'll annoy someone, probably
21:00:43 -!- foobartest has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:01:29 <ehird> You are so amusing because you ruin oko chains.
21:01:36 <ehird> Gee, truly cutting edge stuff.
21:01:39 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>]
21:01:48 <fizzie> That _should_ be it, although I make no guarantees.
21:02:07 <ais523> ok, that's not a good sign
21:02:22 <oerjan> um isn't that actually an infinite loop?
21:02:28 -!- foobarbaztest has joined.
21:02:35 <ais523> oerjan: it's obviously cut off at the end
21:02:42 -!- foobarbaztest has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:02:46 <ais523> ehird: who is foobarbaztest?
21:02:46 <ehird> nc irc.freenode.net 6667 | perl -pe's/:([^!]+)[^ ]+ PRIVMSG [^ ]+ :(.*)/<$1> $2/'
21:03:09 <ais523> the Underload program is a quine
21:03:14 <ais523> probably the best-known one
21:03:18 <ais523> although Underload is very good at quine
21:03:46 <ehird> <CO2Games> ^ul (dick)S
21:03:52 <ais523> ehird: I was entering exactly the same thing as you...
21:04:04 <fizzie> Only executes some 100000 cycles of the brainfuck bytecode.
21:04:05 <ais523> so yes, it's just a very slow program apparently
21:04:35 <fizzie> There, now all the work we have done won't go to waste when fungot crashes again.
21:04:35 <fungot> fizzie: gah. rodgerthegreat, you didn't
21:04:55 <fizzie> Nice Underload implementation, able to output strings up to three characters.
21:04:59 <ais523> CO2Games: learn it then
21:05:53 <ais523> my second one was an infiniloop
21:05:56 <fizzie> I should just write a separate Underload interpreter in Funge-98.
21:06:02 <ais523> but I was wondering if it would output first
21:06:06 <ais523> and probably that's a good idea
21:06:14 <ais523> an Underload interp isn't very hard really
21:06:21 <ais523> if you have a tape-like or string-like object
21:06:37 <fizzie> I could abuse the STRN fingerprint, I already use it pretty heavily.
21:06:55 <ais523> you can implement Underload with just 6 rewrite rules
21:07:13 * ehird ponders BF optimizations
21:07:19 <ehird> I'm sure you could reduce many programs to use seperate variables.
21:07:36 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:07:55 -!- slereah has joined.
21:08:23 <oerjan> ehird: as long as you don't have mismatched < and > inside loops it's easy
21:09:13 <fizzie> Hey, it even manages to concatenate two letters.
21:09:14 <oerjan> PEBBLE essentially does that in reverse
21:09:47 <ais523> fizzie: it even manages to concatenate two letters in reverse
21:09:51 <ehird> oerjan: yes, but I mean still using a mem array for the rest of stuff
21:09:55 <slereah> I read ass. Are you doing underload?
21:09:57 <fizzie> Yes, even more impressive.
21:09:58 <oklocod> 22:16… ais523: fizzie: probably IRC trims trailing spaces <<< what?
21:10:13 <ais523> oklocod: it does sometimes and not other times, we discovered
21:10:15 <slereah> It's a peculiar language when "ass" makes you think of it
21:10:29 <oklocod> please stop talking all of you, i need to open LogViewer to see what you've said, and when i close it, you've talked more.
21:10:29 <ais523> that was just coincidence
21:10:50 <ais523> Underload was a tarpit of a larger lang called Overload
21:10:51 <fizzie> oklocod: Yes, spaces get removed from on-channel messages here, but not in a direct query to fungot. Curious.
21:10:52 <fungot> fizzie: somewhere in atlanta, too?)
21:10:53 <CO2Games> ^def dick bf +++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+.+++++.------.++++++++.
21:10:59 <ais523> which became pretty much impossible to implement
21:11:12 <ais523> it's just a 9-char subset
21:11:13 <oerjan> oklocod: use a real client :)~
21:11:27 <CO2Games> ^def dick bf [+++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+.+++++.------.++++++++.]
21:12:01 <fizzie> Since the memory starts zeroed, it jumps over your whole program.
21:12:04 <CO2Games> ^def dick bf +[++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+.+++++.------.++++++++.[+]+]
21:12:05 <ais523> CO2Games: look up header comments in brainfuck some time
21:12:08 <fungot> dickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdickdic ...
21:12:13 -!- Chocolate_Syrup has joined.
21:13:11 <oklocod> oerjan: once i get a real os, i will
21:14:00 <psygnisfive> what were we talking about last night anmaster
21:14:27 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, why do you ask if you don't remember?
21:14:41 <psygnisfive> because i remember that we were going to talk about it today XD
21:15:00 <CO2Games> ^def dick bf +[++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+.+++++.------.++++++++.[-]++++++++[>++++<-].[-]<+]
21:15:04 <fungot> dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.di ...
21:15:19 <ehird> CO2Games: so witty
21:15:22 <CO2Games> ^def dick bf +[++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+.+++++.------.++++++++.[-]++++[>++++++++<-].[-]<+]
21:15:24 <fungot> dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.dick.di ...
21:15:49 <CO2Games> ^def dick bf +[++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+.+++++.------.++++++++.[-]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<+]
21:15:52 <fungot> dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick dick di ...
21:16:05 <fizzie> You could do your dick debugging in a query with fungot, too.
21:16:06 <fungot> fizzie: sounds like a really good, then i evidently don't understand right :p.
21:16:22 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, you probably didn't understand.
21:16:22 <fungot> fizzie: a bit weird... yeah. i didn't see the text?
21:16:33 <fizzie> fungot: I think you saw, but didn't grok it.
21:16:34 <oerjan> debug your dick regularly, i say
21:19:41 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<][.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<+]
21:20:04 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<+]
21:21:27 -!- mu has quit (Connection timed out).
21:21:41 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:21:55 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<+]
21:22:35 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<]
21:22:36 <fungot> y.y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y ...
21:22:58 <oerjan> you're not actually moving to the next letter
21:23:19 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<][>.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<]>]
21:23:56 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<][>.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<]+>]
21:25:19 <oerjan> the ][ means the second loop is always skipped
21:25:40 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>[>.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<]+>]
21:25:55 <oerjan> i guess that's an improvement :D
21:26:50 <oerjan> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>[[.>]>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<]+>]
21:26:51 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>[.[>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<]
21:27:01 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<]
21:27:07 <fungot> y m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m m ...
21:27:11 <oerjan> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>[[.>]>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<]+>]
21:28:07 <oerjan> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>[[.>]>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<][<]>]
21:28:08 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]]
21:28:19 <oerjan> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>[[.>]>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<][<]>]
21:28:48 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>]
21:28:51 <fungot> y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y ...
21:29:07 <oerjan> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[[<]>[[.>]>++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<]]
21:29:13 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>]
21:29:19 <fungot> optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optb ...
21:29:19 <optbot> ais523: It assumes you've imported Data.List though, which most modules of a Haskell program will do anyway.
21:29:19 <fungot> yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom yourmom ...
21:29:20 <optbot> fungot: despite horribly sucking, handled merges a bit better by actually having a merge tool
21:29:21 <fungot> optbot: ( note that i'm not alone here, just seeking information, as i said
21:29:21 <optbot> fungot: everything he says is logical and rational
21:29:22 <fungot> optbot: brief question: is decrementing 0 supposed to stay at fnord.
21:29:22 <optbot> fungot: A subset of Elisp.
21:29:22 <fungot> optbot: help ps kill i eof flush show ls
21:29:24 <fungot> optbot: i mean, agaist the fnord of our existence.
21:29:25 <optbot> fungot: did somebody want ops? Razor-X?
21:30:10 <fungot> anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bunghole anus bungho ...
21:30:49 <fungot> 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 ...
21:30:52 <fungot> 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 666 ...
21:31:01 <fungot> 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 0x1f0019 ...
21:31:07 <fungot> 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190a 0x1f00190 ...
21:31:30 <CO2Games> ^repeat Shitty background tile setting
21:31:30 <fungot> Shitty background tile setting Shitty background tile setting Shitty background tile setting Shitty background tile setting Shitty background tile setting Shitty background tile setting Shitty background til ...
21:31:34 <CO2Games> ^repeat Shitty background tile setting ||
21:31:34 <fungot> Shitty background tile setting || Shitty background tile setting || Shitty background tile setting || Shitty background tile setting || Shitty background tile setting || Shitty background tile setting || Shi ...
21:31:36 <CO2Games> ^repeat Shitty background tile setting |
21:31:37 <fungot> Shitty background tile setting | Shitty background tile setting | Shitty background tile setting | Shitty background tile setting | Shitty background tile setting | Shitty background tile setting | Shitty ba ...
21:31:44 <CO2Games> ^repeat Shitty background tile setting ||||||||
21:31:44 <fungot> Shitty background tile setting |||||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||||| Shitty ...
21:31:48 <CO2Games> ^repeat Shitty background tile setting ||||||||||||
21:31:48 <fungot> Shitty background tile setting |||||||||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||||||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||||||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||||||||| Shitty background tile setting ...
21:32:07 <CO2Games> ^repeat |||||| Shitty background tile setting ||||||
21:32:15 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>]
21:32:18 <CO2Games> ^repeat |||||| Shitty background tile setting ||||||
21:32:18 <fungot> |||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||| |||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||| |||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||| |||||| Shitty background tile setting |||||| |||||| Shitty background ti ...
21:32:25 <CO2Games> ^repeat |||||| Shitty background tile setting
21:32:27 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
21:32:39 <CO2Games> ^repeat | | Shitty background tile setting
21:33:14 <ehird> FAIL!! FAIIIIIILL!!
21:33:15 <ais523> obviously it wouldn't work
21:33:21 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>]
21:33:22 <ehird> The catchphrase of 7 year olds everywhere
21:33:23 <fungot> Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fail Fa ...
21:33:43 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>]
21:34:13 <fungot> I am bored am bored am bored m bored bored bored ored red ed d
21:34:27 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>]
21:34:35 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>]
21:34:37 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>]
21:34:38 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>]
21:34:39 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>]
21:34:40 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>]
21:34:41 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>]
21:34:42 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>]
21:34:43 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>]
21:34:44 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>]
21:34:59 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>]
21:35:00 <CO2Games> ^def repeat bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]++++[>++++++++<-]>.[-]<<[<]>]
21:35:07 <oerjan> i guess it's up to fizzie, in several ways.
21:35:15 <ehird> what the fuck was that about
21:35:39 <ehird> it informs you that it has defined it
21:36:26 <fungot> fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff ...
21:36:50 <fungot> failfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfai ...
21:37:08 <CO2Games> ^bf ,>,>,>,[<<<.>.>.>.>...<]!fail
21:37:08 <fungot> fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail...fail ...
21:37:35 <CO2Games> ^bf ,>,>,>,[<<<.>.>.>.>...<]!##%%
21:37:37 <fungot> ##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%%...##%% ...
21:37:47 <fungot> ##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##%%##% ...
21:37:51 <ehird> fizzie: Could you disable fungot for CO2Games? :|
21:37:52 <fungot> ehird: ( and define-macro and the namespace concept fit well enough together.)
21:38:13 <ais523> I'm pretty sure fizzie could
21:38:21 <ais523> after all ^raw only works for fizzie IIRC
21:38:27 <ehird> fizzie: then do so, please
21:38:28 <ais523> ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a test.
21:38:55 <CO2Games> ^repeat ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTW
21:38:55 <fungot> ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTW ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTW ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTW ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTW ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTW ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTW ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTW ^raw PRIVMS ...
21:39:16 <ehird> fizzie: hes been making fungot spam 'fail' and 'dick' for like hours
21:39:17 <fungot> ehird: if you insist on writing " rnrs"?
21:39:32 <fizzie> Yes, I've been partially watching. Is it _still_ going on?
21:39:39 <fizzie> Must be some sort of a bug.
21:39:47 <ehird> In CO2Games's brain?
21:40:10 <ais523> hmm... maybe the four-command-in-a-row thing should apply to everything, not just people saying fungot
21:40:10 <fungot> ais523: ' dot.' therefore pair? handles that case implicitly, after proper-list? has sifted out the possibility that code which uses such asm trick?
21:40:58 <fizzie> ais523: That is possible, although obviously has the loophole of ^echo optbotting after three other commands.
21:40:59 <optbot> fizzie: Even if I have to create a whole new nomic to do it!
21:41:11 <ais523> optbot: you should join #really-a-cow
21:41:18 <fungot> optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optb ...
21:41:18 <optbot> CO2Games: maybe i'll sleep on the bus :|
21:41:19 <fungot> optbot: i'm not getting it
21:41:19 <optbot> fungot: though i guess maybe it isn't the best
21:41:19 <fungot> optbot: where, exactly? a new library, and then
21:41:20 <optbot> fungot: Probability 1/32 and sometimes 1/64.
21:41:20 <fungot> optbot: anonymous recursion?? :) so i wouldn't mind
21:41:20 <optbot> fungot: it's a transformation called BWT (Burrow-Wheeler transformation)
21:41:21 <optbot> fungot: Make a SKI processor.
21:41:22 <fizzie> I guess I could implement some sort of /ignore command.
21:41:27 -!- fungot has left (?).
21:41:34 <fizzie> For now, maybe we'll enjoy a bit of quiet-time.
21:41:58 <ais523> quiet is bad, but spammy is bad too
21:42:21 <fizzie> I don't really have time to start mangling ignoration lists into the actual Funge code right now.
21:42:30 -!- Chocolate_Syrup has changed nick to mu.
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21:44:13 <fizzie> Although I guess it would just be a loop and some Qs. Hmm.
21:45:21 <ehird> hi omniscient_idiot
21:45:51 <fizzie> Gah, I can't even remember what's the difference between going down from the PRIVMSG split block in column 4, than in column 6. Some comments would've helped.
21:46:19 <oerjan> the bit rot is in your brain!
21:47:08 <fizzie> Oh, column 4 is for commands.
21:49:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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21:49:37 <fizzie> The ignore probably won't work, but...
22:14:33 <psygnisfive> "Famous Programmers From Adleman to Zimmermann ★
22:15:41 <psygnisfive> http://grok-code.com/37/famous-programmers-from-adleman-to-zimmermann/
22:16:09 <psygnisfive> "The dataset includes 211.5 men, 6.5 women and 4 transsexuals. More on that .5 of a person shortly."
22:16:37 <psygnisfive> Also of note is Roberta Williams, who was only able to credit the women’s side with half an entry since she shares her notoriety and Wikipedia entry with her husband Ken. This is the where the .5 comes from in the men’s and women’s datasets - together the husband and wife team counts as a full person. They are credited with founding Sierra On-Line and writing and designing several games, including the popu
22:16:39 <psygnisfive> lar King’s Quest series. Their story is partially chronicled in Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution.
22:17:33 <oerjan> as if statistics wasn't hard enough already
22:17:54 <psygnisfive> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AudreyTang060527.jpg
22:18:22 <psygnisfive> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:RebeccaHeineman2.jpg
22:19:24 <psygnisfive> http://www.sophie.org.uk/99903003small.jpg
22:19:47 <ais523> "sophie.org.uk" as a domain name?
22:20:01 <ais523> someone must have come to the Internet before squatters existed
22:20:32 <oerjan> given the discussion so far, which one is Sophie?
22:20:35 <psygnisfive> http://www.anticlockwise.com/dani/images/portrait.jpg daniel bunten berry
22:20:58 <psygnisfive> they all look fairly naturally female. not the most ATTRACTIVE females on the planet, but hey, they're nerds, what do you expect
22:21:33 <oerjan> actually my impression was "british" *duck*
22:22:28 <psygnisfive> but she also looks american. for obvious ethnographic reasons
22:22:50 <psygnisfive> you're swedish tho so ill take your word for her typically english looks
22:23:48 <psygnisfive> but yeah, im quite impressed with the way they all look.
22:24:00 <Asztal> floral curtains are a british thing, I think?
22:24:04 <psygnisfive> much better than so many MTFs i've seen that started out late in life
22:24:37 * oerjan swats psygnisfive ----###
22:25:14 <oerjan> actually norwegians from my part of the country have a _bit_ more continental intonation
22:29:29 <oerjan> btw i think floral curtains are pretty big there too, when i think about it :D
22:43:27 * oerjan is also proud of his retroflex flap
22:50:21 <oerjan> it's really silent here, i'd have expected _someone_ to misunderstand my last comment
22:50:53 <oerjan> (not psygnisfive though, for obvious reasons)
22:51:52 <oerjan> the wp page said there was no agreement to distinguish those terms
22:52:11 <psygnisfive> that doesn't mean one isn't a crummy term. :P
22:52:49 <oerjan> but if you pronounce "flap" with the right Indian accent, it contains one. QED.
23:05:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:06:13 <oerjan> what? GreaseMonkey at this time of day?
23:06:42 <Slereah_> Hello GreaseMonkey at this time of day
23:07:24 <oerjan> that would be - spring break or something?
23:07:58 <oerjan> curiously, i think it's autumn break here, as well
23:08:07 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:10:57 <oerjan> it's a symmetry! now we just need to convince the kiwis to celebrate christmas in june...
23:11:26 * oerjan googles to check if "kiwi" is offensive...
23:14:29 <Slereah_> Let's invente some stereotypes for kiwis.
23:14:37 -!- ENKI-][ has joined.
23:14:46 <Slereah_> Did you know that kiwis were only good at curling?
23:15:27 <oerjan> that's just as obscure, so no problem
23:15:51 <Slereah_> Were you aware that kiwi women were shrill and obnoxious
23:16:07 <Slereah_> And that kiwi men are all thieves and smell bad
23:17:36 <Slereah_> Their traditional festivities involve bells attached to their ears.
23:17:53 <Slereah_> Their traditional meals include the wallaby sausage
23:17:58 <oerjan> hm all thieves - yeah, that's true, i remember seeing "Once were warriors"
23:18:09 <ehird> insert joke about kiwi nigger spic gooks
23:18:12 <oerjan> definitely lots of thieves in that
23:18:23 <ehird> kiwi nigger spic gook faggots
23:18:30 <ehird> that should make it offensive by association
23:18:37 <ehird> kiwi nigger spic gook faggot jews.
23:18:48 <ehird> kiwi nigger spic gook faggot jew poles.
23:18:50 <oerjan> Slereah_: wallabies are australian. let's not be inaccurate here
23:19:15 <ehird> EVERYONE forgets poland
23:19:21 <Slereah_> Don't they also live in kiwiland?
23:19:47 <oerjan> ehird: yeah the russians tend to run all over it before they notice
23:19:53 <oerjan> the germans too, sometimes
23:20:58 <Slereah_> We need your stamp of approval for those stereotypes
23:21:59 <GreaseMonkey> faggot = no, i'm not one, and don't forget that gay marriage is legal in states in the US, too
23:22:16 <ehird> oerjan: fuck you, joule
23:22:28 <GreaseMonkey> nigger = well, i'm not one, but you've covered about 30%
23:23:13 <Slereah_> But what of those kiwi stereotypes we invented
23:23:21 <oerjan> ehird: i'm very energetic
23:23:51 <ehird> jew pole faggot spic gook nigger kiwi
23:24:02 <ehird> oerjan: YOU'RE A JOUFAIKERIWI
23:26:18 <oerjan> whoops, that was the saucepan
23:27:20 <oerjan> it already had one bump in it, from AnMaster
23:29:33 * ehird looks at oerjan whimpering
23:29:38 * ehird was hit by a saucepan :(
23:30:27 <Slereah_> Pans are for pansexuals, ehird
23:30:29 <oerjan> WELL WHAT DO YOU EXPECT WHEN YOU GO AROUND CALLING PEOPLE JOUFAIKERIWIS?
23:30:38 <ehird> oerjan: Okay, true.
23:35:30 * oerjan realizes he knows no good way to insult an englishman
23:35:52 <ehird> oerjan: Reference tea, crumpts, or 'jolly good old bean'.
23:36:44 <oerjan> those are insults? o_O
23:36:56 <oerjan> i thought they were facts
23:37:32 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers5/117961414980-1.png
23:37:54 <ehird> GCC, a slow piece of shit!
23:37:57 <ehird> GCC, suck a dick. t.
23:38:12 <ehird> Yes, I can rhyme you with you.
23:38:34 <oerjan> hm no wonder it's hard. the first on "insult an englishman" contains:
23:38:49 <oerjan> "you could insult an Italian if you smiled at his sister, whereas to insult an Englishman you had to stamp on his top hat and sleep with his wife."
23:39:07 <ehird> It's impossible to insult me, then.
23:39:46 <oerjan> you have neither a top hat nor a wife, i take
23:40:02 <oerjan> theoretically you _could_ have a top hat
23:40:26 <oerjan> you could borrow GregorR's
23:40:34 <Slereah_> oerjan : What if I just slept with his wife?
23:40:41 <oerjan> (is that grammatical?)
23:40:48 <Slereah_> Or do I also have to stamp on his hat.
23:45:02 <oerjan> Never be rude to an Arab,
23:45:10 <oerjan> An Israeli or Saudi or Jew.
23:45:18 <oerjan> Never be rude to an Irishman
23:45:28 <oerjan> No matter what you do.
23:45:44 <oerjan> Never pull fun at a nigger,
23:45:54 <oerjan> A spic or a wop or a kraut,
23:46:15 <oerjan> And never poke fun at a
23:46:26 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lost terminal").
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23:48:38 <oerjan> which really only proves that englishmen are geniuses at insulting _others_
23:50:19 <pikhq> Englishmen are geniuses at comedy.
23:50:47 <oerjan> especially insulting comedy
23:51:02 <pikhq> Well, yes. That *is* a national favourite.
23:54:11 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
23:54:18 <oerjan> "...Terry Jones stated that to his knowledge Ireland had only banned four movies, three of which he had directed..."
23:54:40 <oerjan> (one of them was banned in norway too)
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01:50:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | even its core is quite complex already...
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05:35:58 <CO2Games> bot.say ^def badrot13 bf >,[>,]<[<]+[>+++++++++++++.]
05:36:13 <CO2Games> bot.say ^def badrot13 bf >,[>,]<[<]+[>+++++++++++++.]
05:36:13 <CO2Bot> ^def badrot13 bf >,[>,]<[<]+[>+++++++++++++.]
05:36:34 <CO2Games> bot.say ^badrot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
05:36:34 <CO2Bot> ^badrot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
05:36:34 <fungot> nopqrstuvwxyz{|}~..................................................................................................................................................................................... ...
05:37:59 <CO2Games> bot.say ^def badrot13 bf >,[>,]<[<]>[+++++++++++++.[+]>]
05:37:59 <CO2Bot> ^def badrot13 bf >,[>,]<[<]>[+++++++++++++.[+]>]
05:38:04 <CO2Games> bot.say ^badrot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
05:38:05 <CO2Bot> ^badrot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
05:38:28 <CO2Games> bot.say ^badrot13 ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
05:38:29 <CO2Bot> ^badrot13 ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
05:38:30 <fungot> NOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefg
05:39:08 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
05:39:13 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc aaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul dick repeat def
05:40:42 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I got no clue, anyway remember that I'm 18, so it may be too old.
05:41:43 <fungot> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...
05:42:16 <CO2Games> bot.say ^enctst abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
05:42:16 <CO2Bot> ^enctst abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
05:42:25 <fungot> .defghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz................................................................................................................................................ ...out of time!
05:42:51 <fungot> .DEFG.......................................................................................................................................................................................................... ...
05:46:34 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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05:47:25 <CO2Games> bot.say ^def rot128 ,[>++++++++[<++++++++++++++++>-].,]
05:47:25 <CO2Bot> ^def rot128 ,[>++++++++[<++++++++++++++++>-].,]
05:47:25 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
05:47:32 <CO2Games> bot.say ^def rot128 bf ,[>++++++++[<++++++++++++++++>-].,]
05:47:32 <CO2Bot> ^def rot128 bf ,[>++++++++[<++++++++++++++++>-].,]
05:48:58 <oerjan> i think it only prints characters in the range 32-127 or thereabouts
05:51:33 <CO2Games> bot.say ^evil this is a shitty encryption
05:51:33 <CO2Bot> ^evil this is a shitty encryption
05:51:33 <fungot> uijt!jt!b!tijuuz!fodszqujpo
05:52:24 <CO2Games> bot.say ^unevil uijt!jt!b!tijuuz!fodszqujpo
05:52:25 <CO2Bot> ^unevil uijt!jt!b!tijuuz!fodszqujpo
05:52:25 <fungot> this is a shitty encryption
05:52:42 <CO2Games> bot.say ^unevil lol at the dots
05:52:43 <CO2Bot> ^unevil lol at the dots
05:53:09 <CO2Games> bot.say ^unevil abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
05:53:09 <CO2Bot> ^unevil abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
05:53:10 <fungot> `abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxy
05:53:16 <CO2Games> bot.say ^evil abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
05:53:17 <CO2Bot> ^evil abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
05:53:17 <fungot> bcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{
05:53:21 <CO2Games> bot.say ^rot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
05:53:22 <CO2Bot> ^rot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
05:53:23 <fungot> nopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklm
05:53:35 <CO2Games> bot.say ^rot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz123456omgroflhax
05:53:35 <CO2Bot> ^rot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz123456omgroflhax
05:53:37 <fungot> nopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklm123456bztebsyunk
05:56:12 <oklocod> what's with you guys, always bickering
05:57:44 <oklocod> I WAS TALKING TO THE BOTS YOU MISGUIDED ANTEVIGILANTE IDIOT
05:58:58 <oerjan> also, i think that should be ANTEDILUVIAN
05:59:07 <oerjan> seeing as i'm the oldest one here
05:59:28 <CO2Games> bot.say ^def totallyevil ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<<.,]
05:59:29 <CO2Bot> ^def totallyevil ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<<.,]
05:59:29 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
05:59:34 <CO2Games> bot.say ^def totallyevil bf ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<<.,]
05:59:35 <CO2Bot> ^def totallyevil bf ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<<.,]
05:59:42 <oklocod> oerjan: you're not the oldest for long btw
05:59:46 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil omg wtf hax
05:59:47 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil omg wtf hax
06:00:18 <oklocod> i'm gonna get older soon, at least i'm planning to.
06:00:40 <oklocod> i'm aiming for 30yo by 2020
06:00:42 <CO2Games> bot.say ^def totallyevil bf ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<+<.,]
06:00:43 <CO2Bot> ^def totallyevil bf ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<+<.,]
06:00:44 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil omg wtf hax
06:00:45 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil omg wtf hax
06:01:22 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil ................
06:01:23 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil ................
06:01:32 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil ..........
06:01:32 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil ..........
06:01:43 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil ..................
06:01:43 <oklocod> also this dog, it's crying.
06:01:43 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil ..................
06:01:47 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil .................
06:01:48 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil .................
06:02:10 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
06:02:11 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
06:02:17 <oklocod> and it wants to eat my moneys
06:02:24 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
06:02:24 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
06:02:25 <fungot> ACEGIKMOQSUWY[]_acegikmoqs
06:02:33 <oklocod> WHAT IS IT DOING HERE?!?!?!?
06:02:47 <oklocod> it lives here, to be exact
06:03:02 <oklocod> actually it's eating something very questionable from the floor.
06:03:13 <oklocod> probably my cut nail pieces :)
06:03:15 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil actually this is fun
06:03:15 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil actually this is fun
06:03:37 <oklocod> NO NOT THAT KINDA NAILS SILLY MISTER HIHIHI :D
06:03:42 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Words are of silver
06:03:42 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Words are of silver
06:03:48 <oklocod> did you see that sentence?
06:03:49 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Silence is golden
06:03:49 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Silence is golden
06:04:02 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil NO NOT THAT KINDA NAILS SILLY MISTER HIHIHI :D
06:04:02 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil NO NOT THAT KINDA NAILS SILLY MISTER HIHIHI :D
06:04:03 <fungot> NP"QSY&[PJ^+WV\SQ1`T]ai7kbfgu=khsuguDmooqqsKfq
06:04:10 <oklocod> wow all mine sentences keepgrowing inwordsizeexceptnowi'mjustcheating
06:04:36 <oerjan> oklocod: ithinkit'shardenoughtoreadwillallthenoisearoundsopleasestop
06:05:26 <oklocod> "child porn for jerks", for that a coincidence?
06:06:12 <oklocod> CO2Games: you don't need to explain...
06:06:26 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil CrashHelper
06:06:27 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil CrashHelper
06:07:41 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil social studies
06:07:41 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil social studies
06:07:41 <oklocod> i'm more and more late every day even though i wake up earlier and earlier :-)
06:07:51 <CO2Games> see social studies is pure shit
06:08:35 <oerjan> ^totallyevil John McCain
06:08:41 <oerjan> ^totallyevil Barack Obama
06:08:50 <oerjan> ^totallyevil Sarah Palin
06:09:19 <oerjan> ^totallyevil Joe Biden
06:09:29 <oerjan> ^totallyevil Osama bin Laden
06:09:35 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil MDCCLXXVI
06:09:36 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil MDCCLXXVI
06:10:15 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil IN GOD WE TRUST
06:10:15 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil IN GOD WE TRUST
06:10:29 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Bill Gates
06:10:30 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Bill Gates
06:10:30 <oerjan> ^totallyevil Linus Torvalds
06:10:54 <oerjan> i think that about covers it
06:11:00 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
06:11:00 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
06:11:01 <fungot> UOKWII&Z\J^P_-]U0R_Xf^YX
06:11:05 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
06:11:06 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
06:11:06 <fungot> TIG#YSO[MM*^`NbTc1aY4Vc\jb]\
06:11:15 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Oil prices
06:11:16 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Oil prices
06:11:42 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil China...hey!
06:11:43 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil China...hey!
06:12:00 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Nuclear Bomb
06:12:00 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Nuclear Bomb
06:12:17 <fungot> CO2Games: i got the ' obscure' part down pat, still working on the interpreter
06:12:39 <optbot> CO2Games: doesn't matter, because it's undefined
06:12:39 <optbot> CO2Bot: i found it out few days ago
06:12:55 <oerjan> ^totallyevil Brainfuck
06:13:12 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil O.J. Simpson
06:13:13 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil O.J. Simpson
06:13:23 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil The Simpsons
06:13:23 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil The Simpsons
06:13:35 <oerjan> ooh "ond" = evil in norwegian
06:14:00 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil totallyond
06:14:00 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil totallyond
06:16:06 <oerjan> I'm sorry, CO2Games, I cannot let you do that
06:16:17 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Soylent Green
06:16:17 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Soylent Green
06:16:44 <oerjan> ^totallyevil Lex Luthor
06:16:47 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Gibberish
06:16:47 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Gibberish
06:17:17 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil ExxonMobile
06:17:19 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil ExxonMobile
06:17:30 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil drainfuck
06:17:30 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil drainfuck
06:17:39 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Hostpital
06:17:39 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Hostpital
06:17:54 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Osama Bin Laden
06:17:55 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Osama Bin Laden
06:18:01 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil George Bush
06:18:02 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil George Bush
06:18:07 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Dick Cheney
06:18:07 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Dick Cheney
06:18:55 <oerjan> i sense some repetition
06:19:33 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Anal Thermometer
06:19:34 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Anal Thermometer
06:19:38 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Anal Money
06:19:38 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Anal Money
06:19:40 <oerjan> ^totallyevil Esperanto
06:20:15 <CO2Games> I'm gonna have that in my head for days
06:20:48 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil bsmntbombdood
06:20:49 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil bsmntbombdood
06:21:29 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil some random person
06:21:30 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil some random person
06:23:10 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil OMGWTFBBQ
06:23:10 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil OMGWTFBBQ
06:23:24 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil COMMAND.COM
06:23:24 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil COMMAND.COM
06:23:55 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Darth Vader
06:23:55 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Darth Vader
06:24:02 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Darth Maul
06:24:03 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Darth Maul
06:24:10 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Darth Tyrannus
06:24:10 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Darth Tyrannus
06:24:40 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Anti-Jesus
06:24:41 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Anti-Jesus
06:24:53 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil AntiChrist
06:24:54 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil AntiChrist
06:24:57 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Anti-Christ
06:24:57 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Anti-Christ
06:25:17 <fungot> ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<+<.,]
06:25:26 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<+<.,]
06:25:26 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<+<.,]
06:25:27 <fungot> ,\@^@0DE3E7hJhJ:N>oO?QDCu
06:26:43 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil totallyevil
06:26:44 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil totallyevil
06:26:47 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil ^totallyevil
06:26:48 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil ^totallyevil
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06:27:08 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Skywalker
06:27:08 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Skywalker
06:27:13 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Flying Person
06:27:14 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Flying Person
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06:30:03 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil eMachines
06:30:04 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil eMachines
06:30:26 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Automobiles
06:30:26 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Automobiles
06:30:55 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Cyborg Jesus
06:30:56 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Cyborg Jesus
06:31:01 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Terminator
06:31:02 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Terminator
06:31:16 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Holy Shit
06:31:17 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Holy Shit
06:32:37 <CO2Games> bot.say ^def suparevil bf ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<++>-]<+<.,]
06:32:37 <CO2Bot> ^def suparevil bf ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<++>-]<+<.,]
06:33:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
06:33:20 <CO2Games> bot.say ^suparevil GreaseMonkey
06:33:21 <CO2Bot> ^suparevil GreaseMonkey
06:33:28 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil GreaseMonkey
06:33:29 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil GreaseMonkey
06:34:17 <oerjan> I have to say you are easily amused
06:35:18 <CO2Games> bot.say ^suparevil !@#$%^&*()_+
06:35:18 <CO2Bot> ^suparevil !@#$%^&*()_+
06:36:17 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Joe Biden
06:36:17 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Joe Biden
06:36:21 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil Hillary Clinton
06:36:22 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil Hillary Clinton
06:36:34 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALKTO, TALK.
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07:23:16 <fizzie> Okay, what nonsense was that?
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08:10:57 <Slereah_> Spam spam spam spam spam egg, bacon and spam
08:31:02 <pikhq> Damn, am I upset that the Apollo Applications Program fell through.
08:31:14 <pikhq> Among other things, it had planned and budgeted for a manned mission to Venus.
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12:32:14 <ais523> ihope: join #rootnomic
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13:50:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | !cuss GreaseMonkey.
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14:37:51 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil E PLURIBUS UNUM
14:37:52 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil E PLURIBUS UNUM
14:38:05 <CO2Games> damn I swear there was something about it
14:38:13 -!- CO2Bot has left (?).
14:41:17 <optbot> Mony: I think I can do this
14:41:27 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc aaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul dick repeat def rot128 evil unevil totallyevil suparevil
14:44:41 <ehird> Who should be informed that his incessant spamming from last night is _not_ welcome.
14:44:51 <ehird> asiekierka: I'm afraid he's got you beat:
14:45:11 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc aaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul dick repeat def rot128 evil unevil totallyevil suparevil rot255
14:45:23 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
14:45:29 <ehird> asiekierka: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.10.07 Skip to 11:28, when that spam stops, skip to 21:31.
14:45:38 <ehird> You think your spam is annoying, take a look at those two blocks.
14:46:10 <ehird> It's not bot setup.
14:46:14 <ehird> He was fucking around with fungot too.
14:46:14 <fungot> ehird: so if some author decides to create a programming language
14:46:25 <ehird> Because making a bot say 'dick' 500 times is absolutely HILARIOUS.
14:47:41 <asiekierka> 2) Change all of CO2Games` unuseful functions into this
14:47:59 <ehird> asiekierka: If you look at the log, most of his stuff is just using existing functions
14:48:21 <ehird> Hm. Where did CO2Bot go.
14:48:32 <asiekierka> <CO2Games> damn I swear there was something about it
14:48:32 <asiekierka> * CO2Bot (n=CrashBot@75-163-236-8.clsp.qwest.net) has left #esoteric
14:48:34 <ehird> CO2Games: Are you there?
14:49:46 <ehird> don't be ridiculous...
14:52:03 <ehird> Or he's just away.
14:52:10 <ehird> That was 20 minutes ago.
14:54:27 <asiekierka> hmm, i must write a BCT interpreter in BF
14:54:34 <asiekierka> It'll basically convert BCT to CT and do with it
14:54:58 <asiekierka> i forgot BCT has a moving tape, is it only right-moving?
14:56:59 <asiekierka> since you can only remove from the left and add to the right
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15:03:56 <asiekierka> is it just me, or was CO2Games banned from executing fungot commands, while CO2Bot was not?
15:03:58 <fungot> asiekierka: t_! ( for some value of fnord) implementations.
15:13:58 <asiekierka> Hd]foZdnkkUVSfgaQaM\N^O\[P\JCSTPGQ?JI@L
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15:45:41 <ehird> though if you private log is working you'd have already got a hi
15:45:58 <ais523> as it was running through replays first
15:46:02 <ais523> and I only have so much bandwidth...
15:48:41 <fungot> ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<+<.,]
15:50:27 <ais523> ^def te2 bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[+>]<[<]>]
15:50:59 <ais523> yes, but a pretty different implementation
15:51:02 <ais523> I was wondering which was better
15:51:14 <fungot> ,[>[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<+<.,]
15:51:16 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[+>]<[<]>]
15:51:21 <ehird> The one which CO2Games can't use for 3 hours, probably.
15:52:09 <fungot> ,[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+14<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>>+5[<-5>-]<2-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+
15:52:50 <ais523> that looks like a highly optimised for time implementation
15:53:09 <ais523> it has no loops in, if I've guessed how it works correctly, apart from looping from one character to the next
15:53:11 <ehird> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/rot13.b
15:53:56 <ais523> yes, I did guess correctly
15:54:18 <asiekierka> ^rot13 isitfastwillweknowwillweknowohgodWdji(Z=H*>WbYfQZcNO[KTNRW[EKSUAUHHQWdji(Z=H*>WbYfQZcNO[KTNRW[EKSUAUHHQ
15:54:21 <fungot> vfvgsnfgjvyyjrxabjjvyyjrxabjbutbqJqwv(M=U*>JoLsDMpAB[XGAEJ[RXFHNHUUDJqwv(M=U*>JoLsDMpAB[XGAEJ[RXFHNHUUD
15:54:35 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc aaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul dick repeat def rot128 evil unevil totallyevil suparevil rot255 totallyevilenc say te2
15:54:44 <ais523> wow, there are a lot of functions there...
15:54:44 <asiekierka> ^badrot13 Wdji(Z=H*>WbYfQZcNO[KTNRW[EKSUAUHHQWdji(Z=H*>WbYfQZcNO[KTNRW[EKSUAUHHQWdji(Z=H*>WbYfQZcNO[KTNRW[EKSUAUHHQ
15:54:46 <fungot> dqwv5gJU7Kdofs^gp[\hXa[_dhRX`bNbUU^dqwv5gJU7Kdofs^gp[\hXa[_dhRX`bNbUU^dqwv5gJU7Kdofs^gp[\hXa[_dhRX`bNbUU^
15:54:50 <ais523> ^echochohoo echochohoo
15:54:50 <fungot> echochohoochochohoohochohooochohoochohoohohooohoohooooo
15:55:09 <ais523> asiekierka: badrot13 just added 13 to every character IIRC
15:55:14 <ais523> so I wrote trulyawfulrot13 as a joke
15:55:27 <ais523> which is a rot-26, of course
15:55:49 * ais523 wonders if there's any way to delete a fungot command
15:55:50 <fungot> ais523: i never figured if it's possible.
15:56:04 <asiekierka> ^def trulyawfulrot13 bf ,[.++-++-++-++-++-++-++-++-++-++-++-++-++-,]
15:56:31 <ehird> it isnt possible ais523
15:56:37 <fungot> ,[.+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-,]
15:56:37 <ehird> because people didn't abuse it up until yesterday
15:56:50 <ais523> sorry, this is all indirectly my fault
15:56:57 <ais523> CO2Games asked me if there was a bf-bot in here
15:57:02 <ais523> and I didn't know that answering was a bad idea
15:57:04 <ehird> that's a reasonable question
15:57:09 <asiekierka> But how could you know he wants to spam it
15:57:24 <ehird> if he'd asked you "is there a bot which I can use to spam shit for 5 hours?", then I'd understand you blaming yourself :-P
15:57:29 <ais523> yes, I don't feel particularly guilty abuot it
15:57:49 <ais523> at least I got one-up on CO2Games' BF skills
15:57:57 <asiekierka> But only 1% of people can spam with it
15:57:57 <fungot> >,[.>,]<[[<]+32.>[-]>[.>]<]
15:58:07 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to as[homework[.
15:58:09 -!- as[homework[ has changed nick to as[homework].
15:59:59 <as[homework]> You know, is there anything useful that can be written in BF?
16:00:33 <ais523> as[homework]: there's an Underload interp in BF
16:00:41 <ais523> although fungot won't run any but the simplest Underload programs
16:00:42 <fungot> ais523: it's good practice
16:01:17 <ais523> hmm... maybe I should get thutubot in here
16:01:28 <ais523> a bot I wrote in Thutu
16:01:37 <ais523> mostly it interprets Underload
16:01:55 <as[homework]> Is there a stupid language that deserves having an ircbot written it
16:02:20 -!- thutubot has joined.
16:02:36 <ais523> hmm... I have to remember the syntax for this thing
16:03:26 <ais523> ehird: stop that, I don't have protection against infinite loops yet
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16:04:05 <as[homework]> I think Andrew's Programming Language looks interesting
16:04:15 <ais523> it needs implementing first, but I agree
16:04:22 <ais523> it's a pretty interesting language
16:04:37 -!- thutubot has joined.
16:05:19 <as[homework]> Since it's interesting for doing calCKulations
16:07:09 <as[homework]> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Betterave - an RPN calculator
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16:19:53 <as[homework]> where to find a photo for a freaking pc programmer
16:25:58 -!- as[homework] has changed nick to asiekierk.
16:26:00 -!- asiekierk has changed nick to asiekierka.
16:26:46 <ais523> Underload is great for quines
16:26:53 <ais523> I think that one was by Keymaker
16:29:48 <ais523> not a particularly interesting one though
16:30:58 <oklocod> i would have to remind myself of the cmds
16:31:02 <ehird> hmm...zzo38 coming to conclusions via flawed premises on his blog... well, that's nothing new
16:32:03 <asiekierka> I must program some stuff in underload
16:32:19 <ais523> underload's main problem is lack of input
16:32:23 <ais523> but you can still do interesting things with it
16:34:00 <ais523> so you've put asiekierka on the stack, which is a string
16:34:05 <ais523> and then S, which is both a string and a command
16:34:10 <ais523> ^ runs the top command on the stack
16:34:12 <ais523> which is S in this case
16:34:19 <ais523> and the S outputs the top string on the stack
16:34:39 <asiekierka> ++ul (CO2Games)S(pammed) (us) (a) (lot)
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16:36:53 <ais523> +ul (asiekierka)a(S)*^
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16:37:27 <ais523> +ul (asiekierka)a(S)*^
16:37:39 <ais523> thutubot needs better error correction really
16:37:53 <fungot> asiekierka: good lord. this is ' encapsulation' reads: ' lists extensions that are required at runtime?
16:38:33 <asiekierka> also, going off in 15 minutes for MegaMan NT Warrior Axess Episode 48 i think, maybe 50
16:39:02 <asiekierka> I think i may do a input command, just for the sake of making an Underload bot
16:39:03 <ais523> I'll just put a step count on it, probably
16:39:18 <ais523> yes, the problem with Underload input is that there's no really good way to do it
16:40:02 <asiekierka> Actually, i wanted to feed input through the stack
16:40:14 <ais523> asiekierka: calculation's normally done with Church numerals
16:40:15 <asiekierka> and run Underload code in an infinitife loop
16:40:25 <ais523> and infinilooping is easy
16:40:41 <ais523> asiekierka: in Underload, the church numeral for 8 (say) is code that replaces the top of the stack with 8 concatenated copies
16:41:10 <asiekierka> So 8 in church numerals, if we use x for it, is xxxxxxxxx
16:41:20 <oklocod> ehird: hmm...zzo38 coming to conclusions via flawed premises on his blog... well, that's nothing new <<< links.
16:41:35 <ais523> asiekierka: no, 8 when executed with x on the top of the stack produces xxxxxxxx
16:41:42 <ais523> but the code for 8 looks different
16:41:46 <ais523> and there's more than one way to write it
16:41:53 <ehird> oklocod: I was talking about http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/chrono/zzo38/1216426880, this quote:
16:41:54 <ehird> [[Homosexual marriage: It just doesn't work. It makes no sense. Marriage involves a man and a woman because that is the way it has to be, that is how the cycle of life works. Two men could live together if you want to but don't be marriage! Two men or two women can't have children. Even if they could (hypothecially), two women would have all girl children, and two men would have half boys, quarter girls, and quarter I-don't-know. Calculate it yourself if you d
16:41:54 <ais523> the shortest I know is :*:*:*
16:41:57 <ehird> that got cut off, didn't it
16:42:28 <ais523> Calculate it yourself if you d
16:42:33 <ehird> on't believe me!]]
16:42:36 <oklocod> ehird: he's just stating opinions
16:42:48 <ehird> oklocod: yes, but he tries to back up the opinion with totally flawed logic
16:42:59 <ehird> and then states that that opinion is correct because of the flawed logic
16:43:07 <ehird> which is what i was talking about
16:43:08 <oklocod> those are clearly axiomatic opinions
16:43:18 <ais523> the logic demonstrates that homosexual marriage is not a good way to prepare for reproduction
16:43:20 <ehird> he tried to prove it outside of those opinions as axioms
16:43:22 <ais523> but that's pretty obvious
16:43:43 <ehird> there's a fancy name for that, isn't there, but i don't know what it is
16:43:54 <oklocod> ehird: he tried to, but what i mean is, he doesn't actually succeed in reducing those exact opinions into some other opinion people might have about something else
16:44:00 <oklocod> which is what i mean by an axiomatic opinion
16:44:11 <oklocod> it's just a random opinion
16:44:13 -!- kar8nga has joined.
16:44:36 <ehird> i think he thinks marriage = setup for reproduction
16:44:38 <asiekierka> So, how do you write church numerals in underload
16:44:47 <ehird> which i guess you could have as an opinion
16:44:52 <oklocod> "calculate it yourself if you don't believe me" :P
16:45:15 * oklocod verifies "woman + woman = girl baby" mathematically
16:45:20 <ais523> multiplication is done with *
16:45:42 <ais523> with 4 there are two ways to write it
16:45:50 <ais523> those both do the same thing
16:45:59 <asiekierka> And how do you use the church numerals later on
16:46:06 <ais523> multiplication and exponentiation are the easiest
16:46:12 <asiekierka> and i want to add them. Is it possible?
16:46:14 <ehird> I'm getting "My toaster is broken" "What's wrong with it?" "It's broken" from someone I'm trying to help with a linux problem
16:46:21 <ais523> addition is quite short but not as short
16:46:24 <ais523> let me try to remember
16:46:54 <oklocod> ehird: tell him to order pizza :P
16:47:00 -!- olsner has joined.
16:47:14 <ais523> +ul (:::***)(::**)((:)~*(*)*)~^(x)~^S
16:47:27 <ais523> +ul (:::***)(::**)((:)~*(*)*)~^^(x)~^S
16:47:34 <ais523> ah, I missed the final ^ of addition
16:48:31 <asiekierka> This makes it. I'm making an expanded version of Underload the programming language of my new portable!
16:49:01 <asiekierka> since it's awesome, awesome and oh god so awesome
16:53:08 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to as[Rockman].
17:05:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:06:36 * oerjan really wonders how ais523 avoided objections on that #really-a-cow thing.
17:06:52 <ais523> oerjan: I buried the intent about 300 lines down in the Registrar's Report
17:06:58 <ais523> which apparently nobody ever reads
17:07:36 <ais523> it wouldn't have been worth using, were it not for the results
17:07:45 <ais523> interesting ends justify boring means
17:08:55 <oerjan> i guess this trick works once people have forgotten the last time it was used
17:08:56 -!- as[Rockman] has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:09:05 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
17:09:33 <oerjan> i cannot remember if there were any countermeasures other than people being more diligent
17:10:05 <ehird> oerjan: the important bit wasn't that, really
17:10:07 <ehird> it's what resulted
17:11:05 <oerjan> is the channel logged? otherwise this sounds very evil. you will essentially be forcing some Players to break the rule of being subscribed.
17:11:46 <ais523> oerjan: it's logged now
17:11:51 <ais523> two of us set up logging pretty quickly
17:11:59 <ehird> evil is the whole point, duh
17:24:12 <AnMaster> afk for most of the rest of the evening
17:25:51 -!- slereah has joined.
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17:26:31 -!- as[Rockman] has joined.
17:26:43 -!- as[Rockman] has changed nick to asiekierka.
17:28:49 <oklocod> no i just knew "megaman" would end in a battle.
17:29:00 <oklocod> because... well, it has "mega" in it
17:29:12 <oklocod> and nothing's more manly than a good battle
17:29:29 <asiekierka> while 50 is the prelude, introduction to it
17:33:31 <oklocod> chapter 10.3: coloring a set of circular arcs
17:34:03 <oklocod> 76.80 euros, and i managed to destroy it by soaking it in water for about a day like half a week after buying it
17:34:52 <oklocod> 76 euros is like a third of the money i have for food monthly, so it was kinda comical :P
17:35:22 <oerjan> it's comical - UNTIL YOU STARVE TO DEATH
17:35:27 <oerjan> then it's _really_ comical
17:36:07 <oklocod> mind you i didn't destroy it entirely, books that cost 76 euros tend to be quite good quality (not in content necessarily, but the actual books rock!)
17:36:28 <oklocod> the ink stayed on perfectly, on all pages
17:36:30 <ais523> oklocod: so why did you soak it in water for a day?
17:37:05 <oklocod> i moved out, and had it in a box; when doing my dishes, i fell this milk can full of water
17:37:21 <oklocod> and didn't realize the water had dropped all over my books
17:37:41 <oklocod> *felled, although i guess "fell" isn't used much
17:38:18 <oklocod> psygnisfive: isn't dropping only if it... drops?
17:38:24 <psygnisfive> i can give you precise reasons why you can't say tht you fell something :)
17:38:34 <psygnisfive> well, falling and dropping are almost identical
17:38:52 <psygnisfive> the only difference is the notion of agency involved.
17:39:14 <ais523> the subject of falling is the object of dropping
17:39:20 <ais523> so they're gramattically different
17:39:25 <oklocod> i haven't talked about falling
17:39:29 <psygnisfive> but subject and object are not semantic differences
17:39:40 <fungot> ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ergative ...
17:39:41 <asiekierka> I will now go and write Underload programs. Is there a language similar to underload?
17:39:47 <ais523> but hey can be if you put them into a sentence
17:39:53 <psygnisfive> except in the context of cutting down a tree.
17:40:04 <oklocod> psygnisfive: yes, that exact context
17:40:07 <psygnisfive> but other than that, "fell" is only the past tense of fall.
17:40:12 <ais523> asiekierka: Joy is the most similar I know out of non-esolangs
17:40:47 <ais523> asiekierka: well, it's a concatenative lang, so other concatenative langs can be somewhat similar
17:40:58 <asiekierka> I may do an esolang... maybe. Should i?
17:41:02 <ais523> but most of them don't go around putting code on the stack and using combinators, like Underload and Joy do
17:41:13 <psygnisfive> really what you did is knock over a can of water
17:41:36 <oklocod> psygnisfive: did i mention i had an axe and the can was so old it was rooted to the ground with mold?
17:42:06 <oklocod> but really i don't need this lecture, i do know fell wasn't the correct term.
17:42:09 <ais523> oklocod: this sounds like the box of rotten apples on a string esolang
17:42:23 <oklocod> it's just i tend to forget basic vocabulary when i'm reading extensively.
17:42:30 <oklocod> in the language i'm reading in
17:42:42 <oerjan> it was one fell swoop, anyhow
17:43:03 <oklocod> i mean, you read a book, memorize the content, and forget how to say "hello"
17:43:31 <psygnisfive> uh.. no? but problems with participant roles is one of the most common things in language acquisition
17:43:43 <oerjan> oklocod: no it's a sign of alzheimer's
17:43:51 <oklocod> i didn't talk about falling, that was a typo
17:44:05 <oklocod> i failed at not remembering the correct term for making an object fall over
17:44:18 <oklocod> i succeeded in not remembering that, but you know what i mean.
17:45:13 <asiekierka> I think i must add an input command to Underload
17:45:39 <oklocod> another interesting fact: often, when listening to people, i have to ask them to repeat what they just said because i simply blacked out for a second, and missed the whole sentence
17:45:52 <asiekierka> @ - input a string and put it at the top of the stack
17:46:05 <oerjan> oklocod: not very common on irc, i assume
17:46:18 <ais523> asiekierka: the problem is that you can't manipulate individual characters within a string
17:46:27 <oklocod> blacked out is another bad term, more like got an acute thought burst, and missed all IO during the last 5 seconds.
17:46:28 <ais523> the only way to make the program flow depend on the contents of a string is to eval it with ^
17:47:12 <oklocod> oerjan: indeed not. also irc may be one of the main reasons for both of these problems.
17:47:56 <oklocod> i often google finnish phrases i've known since i was a child just to make sure i haven't just invented them myself :P
17:48:04 <oerjan> asiekierka: you cannot analyze strings, so you cannot e.g. write a rot13 program
17:48:06 <oklocod> this leads to paranoia ofc
17:48:32 <oerjan> if it's a random string, all you can do is print it out again, possibly several times
17:48:44 <asiekierka> $ - Cut the string in the chars separately
17:49:01 <oklocod> there should never be a command that makes technically existing, but practically nonexistant, functionality easier :P
17:49:17 <ehird> asiekierka: That is inelegant
17:49:30 <oerjan> oklocod: this is not that kind. this is technically non-existing, so that's fine
17:49:33 <ehird> You have to realise that if you will stamp things onto a language you have to be careful about it
17:49:35 <ehird> and fit in with the language
17:49:54 <oklocod> oerjan: well it's technically existing if you have some other representation of a string on the stack
17:50:22 <oklocod> it's true you cannot splice strings, but that's really the whole beauty of underload.
17:50:49 <oerjan> shall i compare thee to (a summer's day)
17:52:07 <oerjan> no way to create unmatched parentheses is a bit cool
17:52:10 <oklocod> well you could just have pop :: (abc..yz) -> a (bc..yz) or something
17:53:19 <ais523> afk for quite a while (probably hours), anyway
17:53:31 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:54:16 <ehird> on ais523's connection
17:54:19 <ehird> which he just disconnected from
17:54:29 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
17:54:45 <oerjan> don't mess with my thutu
17:54:56 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:59:44 <asiekierka> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Evil - the e command is an AAAAAAAAAAAAUGH
18:03:43 <oerjan> um the spec says -> 57361402
18:03:58 <ehird> asiekierka: bit order.
18:04:35 <asiekierka> ehird: i know, but why such random order
18:04:51 -!- slereah has joined.
18:04:55 <ehird> asiekierka: Why not
18:05:00 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
18:05:16 <ehird> aeeeaeeew uueeaw aaaaaaaw w aaaw
18:05:17 <ehird> uew ueeaeuew aaaw ueeuew eeaw
18:05:36 <ehird> http://web.archive.org/web/20070906110701/www1.pacific.edu/~twrensch/evil/pure_evil.pict Come on, this is just the java logo...
18:09:12 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:10:07 <asiekierka> do you know any free BMP to GIF converter
18:19:37 <fizzie> ais523: No, there's no official way of removing fungot command.
18:19:38 <fungot> fizzie: makes smaller code than this version :)
18:19:50 <fizzie> ais523: I can remove rows from the saved state-file, though.
18:20:13 <ehird> fizzie: Please ban CO2Bot from fungot.
18:20:13 <fungot> ehird: ( i.e. 3m) as a way to do it
18:20:30 <ehird> (Justification: Latter part of http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.10.07.)
18:20:31 <fizzie> ehird: I can do that, but it probably won't help much.
18:20:40 <ehird> fizzie: I guess so. CO3Bot!
18:20:51 <fizzie> I think I'll ban that hostname.
18:20:57 <fizzie> That is marginally more work to evade.
18:21:08 <ehird> fizzie: i'd go for hostname -or- ident...
18:21:13 <ehird> dynamic ips and such
18:21:54 <fizzie> I should probably add some sort of list that can be easily manipulated.
18:21:55 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:22:11 <ehird> fizzie: Perhaps just stop people using it more than 5 times in a row.
18:22:14 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:22:17 <ehird> (And don't tell CO2Games how to get around that...)
18:22:34 <fizzie> I think we already talked about ^echo optbot when he was around.
18:22:34 <optbot> fizzie: I'm workin' on it ... not good at specs X_X
18:23:03 <asiekierka> let's ban him from adding commands only
18:23:19 <fizzie> CO2Games: I don't suppose you'd get bored of massively spammy fungottery any time soon?
18:23:19 <fungot> fizzie: the only sort of
18:23:38 -!- ap0 has joined.
18:23:50 <fizzie> fungot: Stop encouraging him.
18:23:51 <fungot> fizzie: and a 2-d language, given a for-each.
18:24:25 <CO2Games> I'm already writing a module for my bot
18:24:34 -!- CO2Bot has joined.
18:24:45 <ehird> CO2Games: Please stop spamming #esoteric.
18:25:28 <asiekierka> wdji*)(Xkfec RSTddOYXdIK][EYLDVT?MMQ;OB>7GE>BG
18:25:44 <oerjan> polish is darn difficult to read, i say
18:25:44 <ehird> CO2Games: "lol" is not a response you can use to ignore me and keep spamming.
18:26:06 <ehird> CO2Games: So will you please not spam like you did yesterday?
18:30:14 <ehird> asiekierka: No... it's line noise
18:31:09 <ehird> asiekierka: Could you talk in non-encoded text?
18:31:29 <oerjan> ^te2 y`w\jjYfgi[TWb$XQ\S`K^ZJU
18:31:30 <fungot> yay_no_more_co2games_spam
18:31:39 <asiekierka> ehird: it's secret messag--- oh well, oerjan did it
18:31:50 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[+>]<[<]>]
18:31:52 <asiekierka> Now i must think of another encryption
18:32:12 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil This is a mesage
18:32:13 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil This is a mesage
18:32:21 <CO2Games> bot.say ^totallyevil This is a message
18:32:22 <CO2Bot> ^totallyevil This is a message
18:32:35 <asiekierka> ^def supertotalencryption bf ,[.+-+-+-[-]++++--+<><+++>---<--->+++,]
18:32:56 <CO2Games> +- would always be optimized out
18:33:03 <fungot> ,[.+-+-+-[-]+4-2+<><+3>-3<-3>+3,]
18:33:14 <oerjan> ^show supertotalencryption
18:33:14 <fungot> ,[.+-+-+-[-]+4-2+<><+3>-3<-3>+3,]
18:33:18 <CO2Games> No I mean you should optimize it out
18:33:36 <CO2Games> why? it looks like its there for no reason
18:34:13 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc aaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul dick repeat def rot128 evil unevil totallyevil suparevil rot255 totallyevilenc say te2 supertotalencryption
18:34:20 <fungot> ,[.+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-+2-,]
18:34:33 <CO2Games> bot.say ^suparevil This is crap
18:34:34 <CO2Bot> ^suparevil This is crap
18:36:16 <CO2Games> Gotta finish up the code for my drainfuck module
18:38:27 <CO2Games> rot13 decrypts with the encryptor
18:41:03 <asiekierka> Here you go with a not-so-easy-to-reverse algorithm. Your eyes will blow at the crappiness of it
18:41:08 <fungot> ,[>,>,>,.<2.>.<2.>+.>+.>+.<3,]
18:41:29 <asiekierka> Actually, the original one is planted here
18:42:51 <fungot> ,[>,>,>,.<2.>.<2.>+.>+.>+.<3,]
18:42:53 <fungot> ,[>,>,>,.<2.>.<2.,,,,]
18:46:38 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
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18:47:23 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:47:44 <ehird> fizzie: let's ponder on the irony of a huge amount of botmessing after telling people off for it
18:57:06 -!- moozilla has joined.
18:57:46 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALKTO, TALK.
18:58:01 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALKTO, TALK, DRAINFUCK.
18:59:07 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALKTO, TALK, DRAINFUCK.
18:59:23 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:00:43 -!- CO2Bot has joined.
19:00:58 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN.
19:01:20 <CO2Games> bot.notice This is really annoying
19:01:58 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK.
19:01:59 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK.
19:02:00 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK.
19:02:38 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK.
19:02:44 <CO2Games> seems the drainfuck module is broken
19:04:05 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK, GENERICREPLY.
19:05:30 <CO2Bot> CO2Games beat the shit out of asiekierka with a large tuna...
19:05:47 <CO2Bot> asiekierka beat the shit out of CO2Games with a large tuna...
19:05:48 <CO2Bot> asiekierka beat the shit out of CO2Games with a large tuna...
19:05:48 <CO2Bot> CO2Games beat the shit out of asiekierka, again, with a large tuna...
19:05:49 <CO2Bot> asiekierka beat the shit out of CO2Games with a large tuna...
19:05:56 <CO2Bot> CO2Games beat the shit out of asiekierka, again, with a large tuna...
19:06:01 <CO2Bot> asiekierka beat the shit out of CO2Games, over and over, with a large tuna...
19:06:14 <CO2Bot> asiekierka beat the shit out of CO2Games forever with a large tuna...
19:06:31 <CO2Games> bot.smack.ext asiekierka dagger stabbed
19:06:31 <CO2Bot> CO2Games stabbed asiekierka with a dagger...
19:07:04 <CO2Bot> asiekierka stabs CO2Games with a Wii...
19:07:34 <CO2Bot> asiekierka stops spam with a banathon...
19:08:00 <CO2Bot> asiekierka pwns CO2Games with a weight...
19:10:20 <Asztal> clearly someone was lying slightly before
19:11:01 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:11:31 -!- asiekierka has joined.
19:11:43 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK, GENERICREPLY, SMACK, TALKTO.
19:12:16 <asiekierka> you have not been blah blah to get yadda yadda to blah yadda
19:19:43 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK, GENERICREPLY, SMACK, TALKTO.
19:27:39 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK, GENERICREPLY, SMACK, TALKTO.
19:28:50 -!- oerjan has quit ("And I invented sarcastic comments, no lie!").
19:32:20 <oklocod> is that the language of gods?
19:32:33 <asiekierka> bot.say ^aenc1 pa/sbr!xbfcqh``dthx^bg`s`hpkfu
19:32:34 <CO2Bot> ^aenc1 pa/sbr!xbfcqh``dthx^bg`s`hpkfu
19:32:34 <fungot> bot.say garbage_is_what_i_love
19:32:34 <CO2Bot> garbage_is_what_i_love
19:34:22 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:35:06 -!- CO2Bot has joined.
19:35:11 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN.
19:35:28 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN.
19:35:45 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN, TALK.
19:36:03 <asiekierka> bot.say ^rot13 obg.fnl ^nqrp2 .bgoch/ nlfom!yryuszzbbbb
19:36:03 <CO2Bot> ^rot13 obg.fnl ^nqrp2 .bgoch/ nlfom!yryuszzbbbb
19:36:05 <fungot> bot.say ^adec2 .otbpu/ aysbz!lelhfmmoooo
19:36:05 <CO2Bot> ^adec2 .otbpu/ aysbz!lelhfmmoooo
19:36:24 <asiekierka> Sad we don't have thutubot to join our part
19:38:15 <asiekierka> bot.say ^rot13 obg.fnl ^nqrp2 .bgoch/ nlfom!ocgbdhp.g.bg
19:38:15 <CO2Bot> ^rot13 obg.fnl ^nqrp2 .bgoch/ nlfom!ocgbdhp.g.bg
19:38:16 <fungot> bot.say ^adec2 .otbpu/ aysbz!bptoquc.t.ot
19:38:17 <CO2Bot> ^adec2 .otbpu/ aysbz!bptoquc.t.ot
19:38:18 <optbot> fungot: here's the sourcecode:
19:38:18 <optbot> CO2Bot: Your parser sucks.
19:38:18 <fungot> optbot: my ' java' i like to start with
19:38:19 <optbot> fungot: Hey i got a question about funge if anyones interested in answering: what happens if you 'g' from a blank cell? or if you 'p' a non-funge command to a cell and the pc passes over it?
19:38:19 <fungot> optbot: but i was trying to make it down
19:38:20 <optbot> fungot: - Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols' test
19:38:20 <fungot> optbot: seems like vim is quite helpful
19:38:21 <optbot> fungot: why do you have those discussions at 05-06am?
19:38:22 <optbot> fungot: i need a bit of antialiasing, because i want them to grow in such a way that the growth can never be seen
19:38:35 <asiekierka> i didn't think it'll have this sort of effect
19:39:20 -!- asiekierka has quit.
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19:42:21 <fungot> asiekierka: so indenting that second line is a comment, unless preceded by
19:42:24 <optbot> asiekierka: debug my prolog lisp :(
19:43:20 <optbot> asiekierka: That is if you want to pursue my leads further.
19:43:28 -!- Mony has quit ("Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent.").
19:45:02 <ehird> asiekierka: CO2Games: Hmm. Was that an hour of botspam JUST FOLLOWING me telling you both off for it?
19:45:26 * ais523 wonders why eir client strips one leading space from a line, but doesn't strip any leading space from a line if it starts with two spaces
19:47:35 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:48:25 <ais523> optbot, are you alright?
19:48:39 <ais523> ehird: is optbot alright?
19:48:46 <ais523> hmm... fungot's alright, presumably
19:48:46 <fungot> ais523: in fact i have been ridiculed due to my modern bias
19:50:21 <psygnisfive> i had some ideas about how to parse transformations
19:50:39 <fungot> KingOfKarlsruhe: i should write those lecture diary things for the first
19:51:45 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: actually, that's not how you do itTOPIC #esoteric :the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | They sound so.... British.
19:52:50 <optbot> ais523: you might explain what evaluates to true and what doesn't
19:53:01 <ais523> ah, optbot's just lagging
19:53:01 <optbot> ais523: it was cool. Because it was Lisp with syntax.
19:53:03 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:53:37 -!- CO2Bot has joined.
19:54:15 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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20:00:47 -!- CO2Bot has joined.
20:00:50 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN, DRAINFUCK.
20:01:30 -!- thutubot has joined.
20:02:30 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:02:59 -!- CO2Bot has joined.
20:03:02 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN, DRAINFUCK.
20:03:05 <CO2Bot> Drainfuck programs are: .
20:03:20 <ais523> +ul (^echochohoo optbot)S
20:03:21 <optbot> ais523: this should produce a 1 but I get an "M"
20:03:21 <optbot> fungot: it's (mostly) sanely written, and I *am* available, so. . .
20:03:22 <fungot> optbot: that sounds like the sort of message involving parameters.'
20:03:22 <optbot> fungot: module constructor run for each fingerprint
20:03:23 <fungot> optbot: scheme 48 seems to prefer to use interfaces that get exercised by lots of people
20:03:24 <fungot> optbot: forcer says: what? you meant or what?
20:03:24 <optbot> fungot: if (sender != string(argv[2])) continue;
20:05:35 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Nick collision from services.).
20:07:09 -!- CO2Bot has joined.
20:07:39 <CO2Bot> Drainfuck programs are: .
20:08:25 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:09:33 -!- CO2Bot has joined.
20:10:14 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:11:45 -!- CO2Bot has joined.
20:12:21 <CO2Bot> Drainfuck programs are: ,[.,].
20:12:50 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:23:07 <ehird> psygnisfive: he was doing it all last night
20:23:39 <CO2Games> I'm debugging the drainfuck module
20:23:41 <ais523> CO2Games: well, #esoteric-blah exists for a reason
20:23:45 <ais523> or you could test in your own channel
20:23:49 <ais523> I tested thutubot on my own /server/
20:23:54 <ais523> to avoid bothering Freenode
20:24:32 <ehird> psygnisfive: have you seen last nights logs
20:24:49 <ehird> psygnisfive: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.10.07
20:24:52 <ehird> skip to 21:30:14 --- join: CO2Games (n=CO2Games@75-163-236-8.clsp.qwest.net) joined #esoteric
20:25:19 <psygnisfive> i had some ideas on how we could parse a transformation language with scope indicators and so on
20:26:45 <oklocod> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
20:27:29 <psygnisfive> that needs to be interpreted as originating in some position, we'll mark it with t
20:27:41 -!- CO2Games has quit ("And I invented doors, no joke!").
20:28:03 <psygnisfive> the grammar will have what you might call "functional" positions
20:28:28 <psygnisfive> that is, you have a CFg rule like, say, ScopeIndication -> Indicator SomethingElse
20:28:56 <psygnisfive> so that the parser parses as a ScopeIndication, and then, as its going through SomethingElse
20:29:12 <oklocod> well i don't entirely follow you, which may be a bad sign after 5 lines of explanation.
20:29:13 <psygnisfive> it finds a spot that /normally/ would have some element, namely X
20:29:26 <oklocod> "you have some, call it X"
20:29:30 <psygnisfive> so lets try this from a different perspective
20:29:38 <oklocod> like, some value or something?
20:30:07 <psygnisfive> and you want it to have scope over some specific set of predicates
20:30:44 <psygnisfive> but really this could be simplified rather conveniently
20:31:45 <ais523> +ul (:(0 )*S:(1 )*S:(2 )*S:(3 )*S:(4 )*S:(5 )*S:(6 )*S:(7 )*S:(8 )*S(9 )*S):(0)~^:(1)~^:(2)~^:(3)~^:(4)~^:(5)~^:(6)~^:(7)~^:(8)~^(9)~^
20:31:45 <thutubot> 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99
20:31:49 <psygnisfive> but thats not scope indication as i meant it
20:31:53 <ais523> +ul (:(0 )*S:(1 )*S:(2 )*S:(3 )*S:(4 )*S:(5 )*S:(6 )*S:(7 )*S:(8 )*S(9 )*S):()~^:(1)~^:(2)~^:(3)~^:(4)~^:(5)~^:(6)~^:(7)~^:(8)~^(9)~^
20:31:53 <thutubot> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99
20:32:13 <psygnisfive> so we might have a scope indicator like 'either'
20:32:51 <oklocod> so it's kinda the "\x ->" for the "x" that is the or
20:33:03 <oklocod> you tell it where to lift from
20:34:12 <psygnisfive> but the question is how does the scope get pulled out of this
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20:34:29 <psygnisfive> and there are also cases where we might not even leave "or", or similar things, in place like that
20:34:44 <psygnisfive> well i figure the structure could be like this:
20:35:43 <psygnisfive> [either P] is a case of ScopeIndication -> Indicator SomethingElse
20:36:03 <psygnisfive> so once we parse this, and make this recognition
20:36:37 <psygnisfive> and once we find an item that can have scope
20:36:54 <psygnisfive> we associate the scope indicator with that disjunction
20:37:18 <oklocod> either 6=6 and either 5=2 or 2=(5 or 2)
20:37:20 <psygnisfive> and then we can extract the or from [a [b [c [or x y]]]]
20:37:27 <oklocod> well either makes no sense with and, as a keyword, ofc
20:38:00 <psygnisfive> then we replace x/y with [a [b [c T]]] with T replaced by x/y
20:38:31 <oklocod> yeah, mapping tree, nopol's negative list, nondeterministic element
20:39:00 <ais523> anyway, I've decided that lazy imperative languages make more sense then strict imperative languages in lots of ways
20:39:06 <ais523> and there should be more of them
20:39:14 <psygnisfive> it could even work for other quantifiers like all
20:39:30 <ais523> (N.B. for the benefit of oerjan, I'm arguing for lazy and impure, rather than lazy and pure, here)
20:39:49 <ais523> oklocod: a lazy function can evaluate its arguments more than once, or not at all
20:39:56 <ais523> which means that things like if and while can be represented as functions
20:39:58 <oklocod> and what does pure/impure in the context of an imperative language?
20:40:10 <ais523> oklocod: pure = without side effects, no matter what the paradigm
20:40:11 <psygnisfive> a(b(c(all X))) == forall x <- X [a(b(c(x)))]
20:40:13 <oklocod> ais523: yes i know what they are
20:40:28 <oklocod> ais523: well imperative + pure sounds a bit weird.
20:40:36 <ais523> yes, it defeats the point of being imperative
20:40:40 <ais523> but imperative + lazy works fine
20:40:44 <psygnisfive> and we can ofcourse also have different scopes
20:40:52 <ais523> you just need to make all the commands run at the right itme
20:41:02 <ais523> which effectively you can do by monad-chaining them together
20:41:22 <ais523> but you can do all this without first-class functions, if you want to
20:41:32 <psygnisfive> a( <> b(c(all X))) == a(forall x<-X [b(c(x))])
20:41:48 <ais523> it works with sort of second-and-a-bit class functions, sort of a IIa
20:41:57 <oklocod> psygnisfive: yah thaz nice
20:42:11 <psygnisfive> im still not entirely sure how we could use this shit but
20:42:36 <psygnisfive> alternatively, consider repetition and crap
20:43:03 <oklocod> PERHAPS DYNAMIC SCOPE FOR THAT! print (true or <> my_cool_function()); function my_cool_function() { return true and false }
20:44:01 <psygnisfive> (a or b) could make a lambda: \x -> a(x) or b(x)
20:44:20 <psygnisfive> when it finds no argument to a 1-argument lambda it looks back for the scope-taking element
20:44:45 <oklocod> what are these Forked Functions
20:45:17 <oklocod> i just know function function function means function(arg) `function` function(arg), where arg is the arg of the function in the scope of which we are
20:46:13 <oklocod> thazz called a forkor i neva herd
20:46:50 <oklocod> yes that's a pretty avgsome definition
20:47:49 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol.
20:48:13 <oklopol> i need more time, need more of it.
20:48:41 <oklopol> how does it know where to take x from
20:50:09 <oklopol> "a or b X" is pretty awesome, implicit mapping, weird precedence and or has a lifted scope
20:50:39 <psygnisfive> and in this case its really i suppose a conversion of two predicates into one
20:50:40 <oklopol> yes, right, for boolean functions that makes more sense
20:51:37 <psygnisfive> a or b X would mean filter (\x -> a x | b x) X
20:52:23 <oklopol> perhaps you could do this programmatically, tell it how to evaluate things that make no sense originally, like applying a (\int -> bool) to a list
20:52:51 <oklopol> so that, you make kinda generic function definitions, but just with types, and provide rewrite rules
20:52:56 <oklopol> or something like that i dunno
20:53:04 <psygnisfive> which would be more ({x*x | x<-X}, {y*y | y<-Y})
20:53:40 <oklopol> (p@(\int -> bool) l@list) ==> filter(p, l)
20:53:51 <oklopol> i'll read what you said, now.
20:55:18 <psygnisfive> or we could even get away with haskell-like currying but also allow arbitrary numbers of arguments without using lists
20:55:43 <oklopol> for functions that return other things than booleans, put (f@(\a -> b) l@list) ==> map(f, l) before the other definition, and you have the mapping case
20:56:10 <oklopol> that one language of ehird's does that
20:56:16 <psygnisfive> and we'd know this by pushing (+) to the parse list
20:56:47 <psygnisfive> and each time we get to the second argument position of (+) and we instead expect a + ...
20:57:05 <psygnisfive> therefore when we get a number instead, we just parse it as (+) THEN the number
20:57:32 <psygnisfive> we find theres nothing left to parse on that line
20:58:42 <oklopol> anyway, i think my idea was awesome and perfect, do comment on it
20:58:47 <ehird> ais523: wanna have a crack at determining the TC-ness of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Qq?
20:58:50 <ehird> we never solved it
20:58:59 <ais523> ehird: I'll have a look
20:59:09 <ehird> Also, munge=concatenate, in that
20:59:20 <oklopol> psygnisfive: basically, you can supply rewrite rules for expressions that are typing errors originally
21:00:04 <oklopol> like, to add be able to add a string to an int, you do "a@int + b@string ==> a + conv2int(b)"
21:00:29 <oklopol> how's that more boring than yours, this is at least a new idea :P
21:00:52 <oklopol> weird is great.... or should i say geird?
21:00:52 <psygnisfive> a programming language with movement would be cool
21:01:16 <oklopol> can you define movement btw
21:01:33 <psygnisfive> where something has to be interpreted as existing in multiple places
21:02:12 <psygnisfive> you can pretend that you /started/ with just p(x)
21:02:19 <psygnisfive> where x is some variable that you're questioning
21:02:26 <psygnisfive> and therefore because you're questioning it
21:03:14 <oklopol> "you can pretend that you /started/ with just p(x)" not sure i understand
21:03:36 <oklopol> how does it know to do p -> p(x)?
21:03:41 <psygnisfive> pretend for a second that we can paraphrase p(x) as p of x
21:04:06 <psygnisfive> now pretend that if we want to find all x's where p of x is true
21:04:21 <psygnisfive> we can substitute an alternative word that idicates we're questioning x
21:05:59 <psygnisfive> but in the MEANING, the 'what x' has scope over 'p of x'
21:06:39 <psygnisfive> so we can /move/ 'what' up to where it has scope
21:07:18 <psygnisfive> so the position of what indicates the scope
21:07:27 <oklopol> so, umm, when we have a predicate over x, like x | p, whereever there is a typing issue where you need a boolean where there is a predicate, you give that predicate x as argument?
21:07:29 <psygnisfive> but now we have a redundancy, so we just sort of.. drop the second one
21:07:49 <psygnisfive> well, it doesnt have to be just that tho keep in mind
21:07:54 <oklopol> so, x | p or q could be x | p(x) or q(x), because the predicates were in place of expected booleans, and needed to be applied
21:08:45 <oklopol> wonder if that could be done in my "type mismatch triggered rewriting" system
21:08:56 <ais523> ehird: kind of like Underload but not really is a good description for that lang
21:09:14 <ais523> Underload can't be compiled into it directly, because the return value of 9 is'nt a legal value of 2
21:09:19 <ais523> *isn't a legal input for 2
21:09:20 <oklopol> somehow an expression should know x somehow encloses
21:10:08 <oklopol> that is something the language needs to offer, i guess
21:11:04 <ais523> ehird: I don't think it is TC, because of the output of 9 isn't input to 2 issue
21:11:16 <oklopol> but, something like "context x: expecting bool: p@(\X -> bool) ==> p(x)"
21:11:19 <ais523> so you can only use 8 for swaps and such a finite number of times
21:11:24 <ais523> ehird: the output of 9 is a single integer
21:11:26 <oklopol> context is a keyword for when we are inside x's scope
21:11:29 <psygnisfive> the scope-acquisition of x is implicit not explicit
21:11:32 <ais523> thus you can't append stuff inside the integer, so to speak
21:11:39 <oklopol> expecting is a keyword for what the expression should convert to
21:11:42 <ehird> The output of 9 is whatever the function returns.
21:11:47 <ais523> in Underload you can do (blah)a(^)*
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21:11:55 <ais523> there doesn't seem to be a Qq equivalent to that
21:12:00 <psygnisfive> tho we'd probably want to use a special indicator that x needs to be interpreted with different scope
21:12:04 <oklopol> psygnisfive: yes, that is covered by the rewrite system as well
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21:12:31 <ehird> ais523: (0 2 (9 ...) (9 ...))
21:12:47 <psygnisfive> if its filtering a list, p or q X is probably how it should look
21:13:08 <ais523> ehird: that's illegal, isn't it?
21:13:10 <psygnisfive> what other kind of scopal issues are there
21:13:13 <ais523> the 0 evaulates the 9s to single integers
21:13:18 <ais523> which aren't legal arguments to the 2
21:13:23 <ehird> ais523: i'm not sure
21:14:15 <oklopol> psygnisfive: well i'd just prefer type mismatch triggered rewriting, and then perhaps having these things in the stdlib :P
21:14:32 <psygnisfive> neither a(b(c(x or y) == not(a(b(c(x))) or a(b(c(y))))
21:15:03 <psygnisfive> ah well the way ive been thinking of it involved recording when things were in places they weren't expected to be in
21:15:08 <oklopol> why not have a nor, it'd be a pretty unique keyword
21:15:14 <oklopol> or operator name, whatever
21:15:36 <oklopol> psygnisfive: yes, that's what it's about
21:15:51 <psygnisfive> and that results in a(b(c(x))) nor a(b(c(y)))
21:15:59 <oklopol> you can do implicit filtering, implicit mapping, forking and that scope extension thing with it
21:16:46 <oklopol> you mean, it's not general enough to be interesting?
21:16:57 <psygnisfive> well it is but i want it to be even wonkier
21:17:39 <oklopol> i'm just saying you're only listing special cases of what one could allow for programmers to do themselves given a good construction of TMTR
21:17:54 <oklopol> it seems to me like a pretty generic idea
21:18:05 <oklopol> but, i've been known to love my own inventions
21:18:21 <psygnisfive> i see it as a completely different system :P
21:20:41 <oklopol> i don't see a case where tmtr couldn't do just that, because clearly the "movement", which is basically rewriting, happens where the code somehow has type errors (if it didn't, how would you know where to have movement anyway)
21:23:38 <oklopol> ais523: i have tons of new ideas for that 3-sat language, storage is done using boolean variables with probabilities, and you can have predicates
21:23:54 <oklopol> (a probability can store an infinite amount of data of course)
21:24:38 <oklopol> you do all boolean logic using a modified 3-sat, which tries to find the most probable assignment for the variables
21:24:53 <ais523> oh dear, sounds like my INTERCAL equation solver thing
21:25:05 <ais523> but in a very different way
21:25:35 <oklopol> i'm not sure how exactly all this works, and flow control is a bit iffy still, because i need to be very careful not to allow a direct form of lambda calculus
21:26:32 <oklopol> often my languages end up reinventing lambdas, if they aren't imperative. and that's quite boring
21:26:53 <ais523> that's because lambdas are so useful
21:27:09 <ais523> hmm... would you argue that Unlambda or Underload reinvents the lambda?
21:27:09 <oklopol> have an exam on monday, so i'm kinda busy for a while, hopefully have some time to work on this, and muture next week.
21:27:35 <oklopol> the reasong isn't lambdas are useful. it's that they arise out of anything, because they are trivial beings.
21:28:08 <oklopol> ais523: not that directly.
21:28:37 <oklopol> but, for instance, the turing completeness proof was a quite trivial compilation from lc
21:28:42 <ais523> Underlambda will have a preprocessor that preprocesses lambda syntax into Underloady code
21:29:03 <ais523> also, I wrote a BF-minus-input -> Underload compiler afterwards
21:29:09 <ais523> so now there are two TC proofs of Underload
21:29:26 <oklopol> for an Interesting Language, i'd argue, the simplest proof should be a construction of a lambda calculus evaluator, and the creation of the input in memory
21:29:54 <ais523> cyclic tag was used for both rule 110 and the 2,3 Turing machine
21:30:09 <ais523> also, I wouldn't try to prove C TC via lambdas
21:30:15 <oklopol> ais523: the point is, you shouldn't be able to make a simple compilation that preserves time complexities
21:30:42 <oklopol> if you can, then you've reduced the language to another, and a there's a significant drop in interestingness
21:31:00 <ais523> well, I think the 2,3 Turing machine being O(2^2^n) just to simulate cyclic tag is enough of a computational order gap
21:31:05 <oklopol> i'm talking about tarpits of course, a language can be interesting as a programming experience even if it has a trivial compilation to something.
21:31:27 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
21:31:30 <oklopol> it's just not interesting as a computation model
21:32:21 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
21:32:27 <optbot> ais523: ok lets see if this brainfuck IRC bot works
21:32:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | yes.
21:32:44 <ais523> heh, what a great concatenation of messages
21:32:58 <ais523> if only optbot had said "Underload" not "brainfuck" it would have been perfect
21:32:58 <optbot> ais523: So it IS javascript.
21:33:03 <ais523> or if it had been written in BF itself
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22:00:49 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you highlighted me when I was away?
22:01:13 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I was out of town
22:01:18 <psygnisfive> just regarding ideas for how to parse a language with movement and stuff.
22:01:40 <AnMaster> and I'm 100% sure I did set /away
22:02:04 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you know in /whois
22:02:10 <AnMaster> * [ais523] is away (Gone away for now.)
22:02:18 <ais523> AnMaster: ais523 is back
22:02:18 <AnMaster> you use the away command to set it
22:02:30 <AnMaster> ais523, well not when I did whois just 3 seconds earlier
22:02:31 <ais523> and yes, I /away before /quitting
22:02:38 <ais523> ah, there's a weird bug here
22:02:40 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, err /away <reason>
22:02:43 <ais523> when I do /back it tells me I'm already back
22:02:47 <AnMaster> plain away will remove the away
22:02:52 <ais523> but then secretly unaways me
22:02:57 <ais523> and not on this client it won't
22:02:58 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
22:03:33 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you seriously mean you didn't know about it?
22:03:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:04:18 <AnMaster> (ais: correct me if that is wrong form of old you)
22:04:57 -!- slereah has joined.
22:05:01 <ais523> AnMaster: Hast thou not read RFC 1459 would be more appropriate
22:05:04 <ais523> as you're only talking to one person
22:05:14 <ais523> but people only say that nowadays to deliberately sound really old
22:05:22 <ais523> as it went out of English centuries ago
22:17:51 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
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22:20:04 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
22:20:54 <Asztal> hæfdon þe eall gān gemædde?!
22:22:22 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
22:27:15 -!- CO2Games has joined.
22:27:50 -!- CO2Bot has joined.
22:28:05 <CO2Games> bot.df.program me ^+++++++[>++++++++<-]>+^.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.[+]++++[>++++++++<-]>.V.V.
22:28:11 -!- CO2Bot has quit (Excess Flood).
22:29:05 <ais523> Hast thou not read RFC 1459!?
22:29:27 -!- CO2Bot has joined.
22:30:15 <CO2Games> bot.df.program me ^+++++++[>++++++++<-]>+^.++.+++++++++++++++++.-----------.++++++.-.[+]++++[>++++++++<-]>.V.V.
22:30:26 <CO2Bot> :: 65536 Action Limit exceeded!
22:30:38 <CO2Games> yeah ok so the loops are broken
22:30:51 -!- CO2Games has left (?).
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23:03:59 <ehird> i wish co2games would fucking stop or go away
23:04:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
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23:07:18 <ais523> <AnMaster> ehird, I agree
23:07:26 <ehird> AnMaster: holy fucking shit
23:07:32 <ais523> anyway, I brought thutubot back here
23:07:35 <ehird> AnMaster: quick, find a technicality to disagree with me on
23:07:41 <ehird> this CANNOT happen it's a law of physics
23:08:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I think CO2Bot should not be here. Since it doesn't seem to add any useful functionality. And CO2Games spam with it
23:08:40 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't think you understand
23:08:46 <ehird> you agreeing with me is a logical impossibility
23:08:50 <ehird> you must reverse it quickly
23:09:03 <AnMaster> so there must be a flaw in that logic
23:09:11 <ehird> (Hm, we're disagreeing about agreeing being a logical impossibility.)
23:09:13 <ehird> That works, I guess.
23:09:16 <ais523> +ul (Does Thutubot add useful functionality?)S
23:09:16 <thutubot> Does Thutubot add useful functionality?
23:09:36 <AnMaster> ehird, no you are right. It is logically impossible
23:09:44 * oerjan wonders if they get the M cartoon in sweden
23:09:57 <ehird> AnMaster: i have a better solution -
23:10:07 <oerjan> it's norwegian, by Mads Eriksen
23:10:08 <ehird> CO2Bot must be modified to ignore commands from CO2Games
23:10:14 <ehird> then non-spammers can use it!
23:10:22 <oerjan> i don't know if it's known in sweden
23:11:14 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds good, but I doubt CO2Games will agree to block himself from his own bot
23:11:15 <oerjan> but this reminds me of the story line when M's girlfriend admits she was wrong about something
23:11:25 <oerjan> causing a breakdown in the laws of the universe
23:11:34 <ais523> bot.df.program test ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
23:11:47 <oerjan> M = Mads himself, exaggerated
23:11:53 <ais523> hmm... well, Drainfuck isn't Brainfuck
23:11:57 <ais523> but that was pretty bad I think
23:11:58 <ehird> ais523: CO2Games has terrible trouble implementing brainfuck, you know.
23:12:04 <ehird> He's talked about his trials and tribulations in here.
23:12:06 <ais523> bot.df.program test +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
23:12:10 <ehird> While adding countless bloat on top of it
23:12:18 <ais523> ah, ok, I just didn't have enough +s
23:12:30 <ehird> Also preserving crap for 'backwards compatibility'
23:12:32 <ehird> with all 0 programs
23:14:08 <ais523> I have no idea how it differs from Brainfuck
23:14:12 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Drainfuck
23:14:32 <AnMaster> ais523, ouch, like Barrow wights?
23:14:47 <ais523> ok, I think I don't understand most of the non-BF commands
23:14:48 -!- oc2k1 has joined.
23:15:10 <ais523> also, what sort of bot uses "bot" as a command marker?
23:15:47 <AnMaster> ais523, one coded in some OO language?
23:15:51 <ais523> fungot, that's ridiculous isn't it?
23:15:56 <AnMaster> bot.foo.bar seems to indicate that
23:15:57 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, it looks pretty OO
23:15:58 <ehird> bot.drainfuck.run("a")
23:16:01 <AnMaster> -CO2Bot- Unknown Function 'PUBLIC.FOO.BAR'
23:16:25 <ais523> which language is CO2Bot in, I wonder?
23:16:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's in php iirc
23:16:28 <ehird> AnMaster: if co2games stops spamming with it it's OK
23:16:33 <ais523> maybe we can hack into it to cause it to leave
23:16:36 <AnMaster> sure? his drainfuck was in C++ iirc
23:16:41 <ais523> bot.raw("PART #esoteric")
23:16:49 <ais523> bot.raw "PART #esoteric")
23:16:57 <ais523> bot.quote PART #esoteric
23:17:20 <ais523> what's the comment marker in PHP?
23:17:39 <ais523> bot./*test*/df.run test
23:17:45 <ais523> ah, ok, I don't think it's using eval
23:17:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: er s/cartoon/comic/ in the above
23:18:01 <ehird> AnMaster: mistake.
23:18:13 <AnMaster> I guess /// will work at start of line
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23:19:07 <ais523> hm... .. doesn't work well when your directory separator is .
23:20:30 <CO2Bot> Loaded modules are: CHAN, DRAINFUCK.
23:20:59 <ehird> bot.chan.part #esoteric
23:21:19 <ehird> so i guess its not module name
23:21:23 <ehird> bot.part #esoteric
23:24:03 <ais523> bot.df.program loopy +[]
23:24:08 <CO2Bot> :: 65536 Action Limit exceeded!
23:24:29 <ais523> bot,df.program crash +[<+]
23:24:33 <ais523> bot.df.program crash +[<+]
23:24:40 <CO2Bot> :: 65536 Action Limit exceeded!
23:24:51 <ais523> hmm... does its tape go both ways, I wonder?
23:25:57 <oerjan> bot.df.program cr2 ,[,+]
23:26:15 <CO2Bot> :: 65536 Action Limit exceeded!
23:26:27 <ais523> I don't get the :: stuff
23:27:07 <oerjan> something repl generated?
23:27:18 <oerjan> looks like var :: type
23:28:55 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Chimera
23:33:25 <oerjan> <ais523> oklocod: a lazy function can evaluate its arguments more than once, or not at all
23:33:38 <ais523> oerjan: in a lazy imperative language
23:33:40 <oerjan> if it's more than once, it's not lazy, but call-by-name
23:34:13 <ais523> well, call-by-name is what I was going for
23:34:17 <oerjan> which are semantically equivalent in a pure language of course
23:34:17 <ais523> but that's a form of laziness
23:34:42 <ais523> Algol's call-by-name, but I think it doesn't eval args twice
23:34:48 <ais523> anyway, I have to go home now
23:34:52 <ais523> I'm about to miss the last bus
23:35:14 <oerjan> i vaguely thought it did
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00:56:51 <bsmntbombdood> would a lazy but nonfunctional language even work?
01:01:16 <oc2k1> there is nothing that can't work...
01:02:44 <oerjan> as long as you have some kind of dependency relation - one thing needs to be executed before another can
01:04:16 <oc2k1> or execute all at the same time and drop all irrelevant results :P
01:04:29 <oerjan> that's not lazy execution though, but lenient
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01:45:07 <CO2Bot> ^def ultraevil bf ,[>+[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<<.,]
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01:45:40 <CO2Bot> ^def ultraevil bf ,[>+[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]<<.,]
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01:47:14 <oc2k1> what would the bot do with a quine ?
01:50:16 <oerjan> bots generally don't see their own messages
01:51:03 <oc2k1> Then we should add a second one :P
01:51:43 <oerjan> been there, done that :D
01:52:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | okay, it was a bad argument.
01:56:02 <oc2k1> the BF quines aren't very short, and the command string would make them more complex...
01:57:51 <oerjan> yeah we usually used some other language
01:59:01 <oerjan> Underload has very short quines, and has a BF implementation
02:00:13 <oerjan> oh and fungot's ^echo ^echo is a quine, though i don't think we ever had two of those
02:00:32 <oerjan> it's easy with bots like fungot where you can use BF to define other commands
02:02:51 <oc2k1> Another topic: A Cellular automaton, but a modification: The structur can be changed by forking a cell (empty space should allow growing)
02:03:26 <oerjan> that gets a bit weird with dimension > 1
02:03:57 <oc2k1> if each cell can read neigbor cells variables, it should be possible to grow structures
02:09:41 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure there are some concurrent computation models based on doing this with general graphs, but i cannot remember the name
02:11:23 <oerjan> oh i thought it might be kolmogorov machines, but they are not concurrent
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03:52:30 <CO2Games> I have a partially working drainfuck bot now
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07:52:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ~exec __import__("time").sleep(10);self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :10").
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08:24:49 <AnMaster> "Numbers that fool the Fermat test are called Carmichael numbers, and little is known about them other than that they are extremely rare. There are 255 Carmichael numbers below 100,000,000. The smallest few are 561, 1105, 1729, 2465, 2821, and 6601. In testing primality of very large numbers chosen at random, the chance of stumbling upon a value that fools the Fermat test is less than the chance that
08:24:49 <AnMaster> cosmic radiation will cause the computer to make an error in carrying out a ``correct'' algorithm. Considering an algorithm to be inadequate for the first reason but not for the second illustrates the difference between mathematics and engineering."
08:25:51 <AnMaster> http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-11.html#%_sec_1.2.6
08:26:24 <psygnisfive> that the fermat test, while not a prime test, is heuristically more reliable than an actual prime test?
08:26:49 <AnMaster> it is a probabilistic prime test
08:27:00 <AnMaster> however my point was "Considering an algorithm to be inadequate for the first reason but not for the second illustrates the difference between mathematics and engineering."
08:27:35 <psygnisfive> i presume the former is mathematics and the latter is engineering
08:29:25 * AnMaster considers a strongly typed LISP
08:29:30 <AnMaster> wonder if that would work at all
08:30:02 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and yes I would say so
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10:04:53 <oklocod> i'm pretty sure that quote is also in wp
10:05:49 <oklocod> oh, right, i've read half of sicp
10:06:06 <oklocod> so perhaps i just remember it from there
10:12:04 <oklocod> (arity 2) Both arguments must be integers. They are subtracted. If a negative value results, they get added instead. <<< ehird: pure geniosity :P
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12:32:33 <oklocod> i think i've overloaded my brain with reading.
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13:23:56 <oklopol> but, luckily i just finished my 600 pages, and can move to simpler subjects
13:24:32 <oklopol> Declarative Programming, the last exam had something like a recursive fibonacci program you had to add comments to... :P
13:24:58 <oklopol> iz gona be smooooth sailin
13:26:32 <oklopol> there's quite a list of issues conserning laziness, dataflow variables and single-assignment and difference list based streams in concurrent declarative programming in the book
13:27:03 <oklopol> so it's not a trivial read, but the exam usually only has one theoretical question, mainly because the actual declarative programming part is totally new for so many
13:27:44 <oklopol> and i need to go to the shoppy ->
13:29:34 <oklopol> well it wasn't just a recursive fibonacci, it was a function from two fibonacci numbers to the next fibonacci number, and a procedure to give the next number and another procedure etc, written in a prolog-like syntax (basically, returns are just assigning given single-assignment vars)
13:30:31 <oklopol> but, well, i could've reverse-engineered it easily without knowing the language, so doesn't matter
13:30:39 <ais523> more languages ought to return things the way Prolog does
13:30:52 <ais523> because it lets you write easily-symmetrical functions
13:31:35 <oklopol> the language the book uses is kinda neat, a subset of oz or mozart, not sure which is the name of the language and which is the implementation
13:32:38 <oklopol> single-assignment variables, so you can pass them down and return really anywhere in the recursion
13:32:57 <oklopol> by assigning them, and coming back up from the call tree
13:33:34 <oklopol> they have a continuationy feel to them, and the way to do name/value distinction is simply beautiful
13:33:54 <oklopol> but why didn't i leave, i'm in a hurry
13:38:27 <ais523> I visited your website and noticed that you are not listed in most of the major search engines and directories..."
13:38:27 <ais523> apparently that's some genuine spam that Google got once
13:52:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | offsets?.
14:23:24 <oklopol> i bet they contacted to guy for profit!
15:00:39 <ehird> [14:59] • AnMaster considers a strongly typed LISP
15:00:41 <ehird> [14:59] AnMaster: wonder if that would work at all
15:00:43 <ehird> [14:59] AnMaster: probably not
15:01:44 <ais523> not sure how much point there would be, but no theoretical obstacles
15:06:30 <oklopol> according to the definition in my book, lisp is already strongly typed, you cannot take a value, and treat it as something it's not
15:06:35 <oklopol> it's just dynamically typed
15:06:48 <oklopol> really i've seen so many definitions i don't know what to think
15:07:10 <oklopol> A programming language characteristic that provides strict adherence to the rules of typing. Data of one type (integer, string, etc.) cannot be passed to a variable expecting data of a different type. Contrast with weak typing.
15:07:22 <oklopol> kinda iffy what that means.
15:07:46 <oklopol> that would mean staticnessity
15:09:41 <oklopol> i like the definition that weak/strong is about being able to meddle with the type of a value, and static/dynamic about whether variables can have a type at compile time
15:10:46 <oklopol> so C would be weak+static, lisp would be strong+dynamic
15:11:24 <oklopol> you cannot use a string as an int in lisp, while you can do that in c, on the other hand, lisp is dynamic, c is static
15:11:45 <Asztal^_^> and haskell is strong + static, PHP is weak + dynamic
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15:34:10 <AnMaster> <oklopol> it's just dynamically typed
15:34:33 <ehird> what is the barrier
15:35:11 <AnMaster> can't really see it fitting into the lisp "idea"
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16:51:18 <ehird> “There are two types of people in the world: those who can’t tell the difference between Arial and Helvetica, and those who despise Arial.” –John Gruber
17:01:25 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
17:03:52 <ehird> john gruber annoys me most of the time but i liked that
17:04:03 <psygnisfive> http://www.collegehumor.com/article:1763156#more
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17:22:15 <ehird> psygnisfive: Hahaha! It's as funny as it was in 2006!!
17:22:49 <psygnisfive> http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/8080/droughtxc8.gif
17:25:22 <psygnisfive> http://www.doubleviking.com/videos/page0.html/james-earl-jones-recites-alphabet-10343.html
17:26:57 <ehird> ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;)
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17:35:46 <ais523> hmm... I thought I'd bring Thutubot in here
17:35:49 <ais523> because fungot is missing
17:35:59 <ais523> and it seems wrong to have no esolangbots in the channel
17:36:06 <ais523> we have optbot, but it doesn't interpret esolangs AFAIK
17:36:32 <ais523> unfortunately it only does Underload
17:36:42 <ais523> and has no protection against being crashed by invalid input, etc
17:36:56 <ais523> infiniloops kill it too
17:38:07 <oklopol> probably interpret esolangs, but i was thinking making a bot *in* an esolang, it seems to be the trend
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17:42:00 <ais523> thutubot's written in an esolang
17:42:16 * ais523 ponders the concept of a Thutu quine
17:42:23 <ais523> probably wouldn't be too hard if it was a one-liner
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18:19:12 <ehird> I WOULD LIKE A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE/LIBRARY CHANNEL
18:20:10 <ehird> ais523: ffffffffff
18:20:41 <fizzie> Fungot's missing because it had again gotten hung up when someone mentioned its name. There is a bug in either the babble-generation code or the code to build the babbling model, but it pretty rarely triggers.
18:21:10 -!- fungot has joined.
18:21:29 <ehird> fungot: trigger fnord
18:21:29 <fungot> ehird: tell sarahbot about unicode
18:21:33 <fungot> ehird: yeah i've tried with the mandelbrot code is that the shootout is silly in general, your stream permute? if the graphics are 2d, and bf works in bf, as well
18:21:59 <fizzie> "your stream permute?"
18:22:29 <fizzie> Should've removed some of those silly commands from the state file while I was at it
18:22:32 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc aaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul
18:23:40 <fizzie> I don't think most of them make any sort of sense.
18:23:53 <ais523> ^echochohoo echochohoo
18:23:54 <fungot> echochohoochochohoohochohooochohoochohoohohooohoohooooo
18:24:01 <ais523> ^echo_cho_ho_o echochohoo
18:24:01 <fungot> echochohoo chochohoo hochohoo ochohoo chohoo hohoo ohoo hoo oo o
18:24:12 <ais523> I implemented the second one to annoy CO2Games
18:24:19 <ais523> as he'd spent about an hour trying to get it to work
18:24:21 <fizzie> Okay, those two are very useful.
18:24:22 <ais523> after seeing my original
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18:27:52 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc
18:27:58 <fizzie> There, a lot shorter list.
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18:35:10 <Asztal> is the bot itself written in befunge, or does it just have befunge capabilities?
18:35:20 <ais523> Asztal: fungot is written in Befunge
18:35:21 <fungot> ais523: no he is just implementing it. it's pretty difficult to write
18:35:27 <ais523> just like thutubot is written in Thutu
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18:41:50 <fizzie> The ^code is so abusable that I had to limit it.
18:42:36 <ais523> that's like giving root shells to everyone who visits your website
18:42:40 <ais523> presumably it only works for you
18:42:42 <fizzie> Asztal: If you haven't seen the link to sources yet, it's at http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt and the helpful diagram about how it works is at http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png
18:42:42 <fungot> fizzie: or even for me. :p
18:42:52 <Asztal> yet you allow p? (or does it change the storage offset, perhaps?)
18:42:53 <ais523> anyway, that did that code you wrote do?
18:43:30 <fizzie> Asztal: It allows anything, since it's only usable by me. It's mainly there so I can patch things without shutting the whole bot down.
18:44:20 <fizzie> ais523: It stuck a 0 into fungespace at row 2018, column 0, which is where the 10th ^def command name would be; the zero there works as a command list terminator.
18:44:44 <ais523> so by defining a command we could get all the old commands back?
18:45:06 <fizzie> No, ^def adds a zero after the command it defines.
18:45:26 <fizzie> But I could stick a letter there to get them back, I guess.
18:45:40 <fizzie> ^code "x"02aaa***99++p
18:45:41 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc xaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul
18:46:01 <fizzie> Didn't remember the correct first letter, so used 'x'.
18:46:17 <ais523> most of them are pointless anyway
18:46:43 <Deewiant> what happened to http://svn.asztal.net/befunge98/ ?
18:46:53 <Asztal> that was a slight accident
18:47:14 <fizzie> I should probably add a ^reload-state or something, since it already has a ^reload command which reloads the code. Then I could remove single commands from the state file and reload that.
18:47:27 <Deewiant> you broke your server or lost your code? :-P
18:47:32 <Asztal> the "delete repository" button on my web host's control panel really should confirm the deletion :(
18:47:54 <Asztal> also, my mouse tends to scroll sometimes when I middle-click
18:49:48 <Deewiant> I've also got something from january which has no .svn though
18:50:11 <Asztal> then you quite possibly have more copies than I do :D
18:50:18 <Asztal> I've never actually used SVN for anything more complex than update/commit, so I don't know if committing the old stuff to this empty repository will work
18:51:06 <Deewiant> if you would have used a DVCS I'd have the whole history and you'd've lost nothing since 1 month ago :-/
18:51:22 <Deewiant> and neither do I, I haven't used SVN much
18:56:44 <Deewiant> Asztal: iki.fi/deewiant/befunge98.zip has what I had, feel free to grab it and sort out what you can
18:57:32 <Asztal> OK (I'm supposed to have weekly snapshots of all of my files, svn included, though, I'm looking at them now)
18:59:26 <Deewiant> let me know when you got it or if you're not going to, so I can remove the .zip from taking up space on my server :-P
19:01:17 <ehird> who is Asztal anyhook
19:02:30 <Deewiant> ehird: http://iki.fi/deewiant/befunge/mycology-comparison.html#interpreters-tested - scroll down to befunge98
19:02:35 <Deewiant> alternatively, http://www.asztal.net/
19:05:22 <ais523> <Deewiant> A bunch of time has been spent optimizing cfunge—to the point that his acquaintances poke fun at him about micro-optimization—and as a result it is certainly among the fastest interpreters out there.
19:05:46 <Deewiant> well, I had to say /something/ :-P
19:06:09 <ehird> Deewiant: i recommend you add more rage and CAPSLOCK
19:06:15 <ehird> then i shall officially approve that :|
19:06:21 <Asztal> ah, there we go... it doesn't help that the directory names in ~/svn aren't necessarily related to the HTTP path used to get to it :)
19:06:35 <ehird> Asztal: how do I shot URI->file mapping
19:06:37 <Asztal> also, now that it's there, nobody look at the horrible code please
19:06:52 <Deewiant> everybody look at http://svn.asztal.net/befunge98/
19:07:17 <Deewiant> Asztal: also, I note you haven't updated since I posted the new results, what's up with that? ;-)
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19:07:35 <Asztal> Deewiant: it's university time :)
19:07:41 <ais523> <Deewiant> the “2k6 leaves 2 sixes on stack” problem
19:07:50 <ais523> hmm... what is 2k6 meant to do?
19:07:58 <Asztal> I'm certainly going to try and make k work, even though I hate it
19:08:10 <ais523> ah, because the cursor ends up on the 6 afterwards
19:08:30 <Asztal> well, that might explain some things...
19:08:51 <ais523> we've had hours of fun arguing about k in this channel
19:08:54 <Asztal> I assumed it was like s
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19:11:18 <ais523> Deewiant: hmm... I wonder if it's worth adding C-INTERCAL to your Mycology results page
19:11:25 <ais523> probably not as it's basically cfunge
19:11:29 <ais523> just with a different front-end
19:18:01 <oklopol> god i hate documenting my code
19:27:17 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc xaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul
19:27:35 <ais523> wow, I didn't realise /clear worked
19:27:36 <oklopol> i made a fileuploadbin for some course i took half a year ago
19:27:41 <ais523> I must do that more often
19:28:13 <ais523> it's so nice seeing a completely empty IRC channel
19:28:20 <ais523> empty of comments and metadata, that is
19:28:51 <oklopol> the problem with /clear is, every time you do it, someone says something half a second before you do it, and you have to open the logs
19:29:10 <oklopol> well okay, that never happened to me, but i imagine it *could* happen
19:29:40 * ais523 feels like pasting a really excellent Underload program into the channel and having Thutubot run it
19:29:50 <ais523> I'm not sure if I have any really excellent programs offhand that aren't infiniloops, though
19:30:55 <oklopol> http://www.scenegroup.com/ <<< does anyone know who this girl is, by any chance?
19:31:07 <ais523> well, presumably someone does
19:31:24 <oklopol> i've done some work for ggl, and that seems to be like the most common spam page in the web
19:31:41 <oklopol> it has been my dream for a while to meet her
19:32:05 <oklopol> if you know what i mean ;;;)
19:32:34 <oklopol> but yeah, she's famous to me, so i'm somewhat curious as to who she is
19:33:48 <ehird> its just the same company
19:33:57 <ehird> using like 3 placeholder iamges
19:34:39 <ais523> +ul ()()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:)~*(*)*( )S~):*:*:*:*:*:*:*^
19:34:44 <oklopol> that girl is used many times more than any other image.
19:34:47 <ais523> this could take a while, I suspect
19:34:54 <ais523> as Thutu isn't particularly efficient
19:35:01 <oklopol> and it doesn't matter why she's on every spam page, just that she is.
19:36:26 <ais523> yep, Thutubot's using 90% of my CPU power atm
19:36:29 <ais523> trying to figure that one out
19:36:54 <ais523> anyone want to try to figure out what it does before Thutubot comes up with the answer?
19:40:03 <oklopol> i don't even remember the underload commands tbh
19:42:42 * ais523 somehow suspects that Thutubot wouldn't get finished this year
19:42:47 <ais523> due to the inefficient way I wrote the loop
19:44:01 <oklopol> i wish i had the time to do interesting things.
19:52:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | heh.
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20:10:02 <AnMaster> ais523, wtf was that code above
20:10:39 <ais523> Thutubot is still trying to run it
20:10:43 <ais523> (Thutubot isn't very efficient...)
20:10:48 <AnMaster> ais523, use a better interpreter?
20:10:50 <ais523> ()()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:)~*(*)*( )S~):*:*:*:*:*:*:*^
20:10:59 <ais523> I just wanted to give Thutubot something interesting
20:11:01 <AnMaster> and what language is Thutubot coded in?
20:11:17 <AnMaster> explains why it is so slow hehe
20:11:30 <asiekierka> fungot is faster, mainly because it limits cycles
20:11:30 <fungot> asiekierka: ( finite 0 ( freereference-exp yourself)) returns.
20:12:04 <AnMaster> ais523, that looks like some LISP code with bad space placement to me
20:12:16 <ais523> AnMaster: what, the fungot code?
20:12:17 <fungot> ais523: oh no! now he will be able to fnord files :)
20:13:22 <asiekierka> I'm wondering what language should i make an ircbot in
20:13:38 <asiekierka> I could make one in underload, but no, you can't
20:13:51 <asiekierka> Except if you issue commands to him in church numerals
20:14:06 <AnMaster> <fungot> asiekierka: ( finite 0 ( freereference-exp yourself)) returns.
20:14:06 <fungot> AnMaster: i could so easily turn that into something more intelligible
20:14:20 <fungot> AnMaster: btw, the fnord
20:14:31 <fungot> AnMaster: i might try to implement a fnord that presents itself as something, but that
20:15:38 <ais523> AnMaster: Thutu programs tend to be a computational order slower than most other langs
20:15:49 <ais523> due to needing to store lots of massive strings in memory and doing regexen on them
20:17:08 * AnMaster can't figure out what made the pc speaker beep
20:17:10 <ais523> wasn't me, I don't think
20:17:32 <asiekierka> Is there an esolang that i should make an ircbot in?
20:17:42 <ais523> Thutu, definitely, it's great at that
20:17:54 <ais523> although it's not so good at interpreting Underload
20:17:56 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you *could* make one in Thutu or Befunge-98
20:18:07 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what about INTERCAL?
20:18:39 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think so
20:18:44 <ais523> INTERCAL is lousy at string-handling
20:18:47 <AnMaster> asiekierka, there you are then
20:18:48 <ais523> it's one of its main weaknesses
20:19:00 <asiekierka> If i did understand intercal very good...
20:19:04 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you probably want to connect STDIN and STDOUT to netcat or such
20:19:20 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what about Asztal suggestion then?
20:19:45 <AnMaster> check entry on the esolang wiki
20:19:46 <ais523> asiekierka: INTERCAL can do string-handling but is really bad at it, deliberately bad I think sometimes
20:20:07 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also befunge isn't very good at handling strings either
20:20:21 <fungot> AnMaster: hence the all caps a second ago
20:20:24 <asiekierka> Anything that can't do a cell-based system isn't very good
20:20:56 <fizzie> AnMaster: Since string-handling is such a pain otherwise. :)
20:20:57 <AnMaster> you can get string handling using STRN
20:21:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: Not that. What did it do again?
20:21:48 <asiekierka> Perl, BF, Underload, Befunge, INTERCAL, Thutu are out
20:21:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, changes two STRN instructions to do load/store from funge-space in a more consistent (with other funge commands) way
20:22:07 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what about Trefunge?
20:22:48 <AnMaster> asiekierka, there is always brainfuck
20:23:17 <AnMaster> asiekierka, it is like single-dimension befunge
20:24:18 <AnMaster> while you could code befungish in trefunge, you couldn't code that way in unefunge
20:25:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: JSTR seems to me like it'd just complicate things, since it seems to require specifying string lengths explicitly.
20:27:11 <AnMaster> http://shakespearelang.sourceforge.net/
20:27:17 <ehird> [[* oklopol had the nick "oklocod" when e registered on #really-a-cow;
20:27:18 <ehird> however, e did not give enough information to be sufficient to contact
20:27:18 <ehird> em reliably. E seems to normally use nicks starting with "oklo" on
20:27:18 <ehird> irc://irc.freenode.net.
20:27:26 <ehird> you're noted specially in an agoran report!
20:27:53 <ais523> the problem is trying to notify people about contact details when you don't know them yourself
20:28:16 <AnMaster> asiekierka, the language name is /// though
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20:28:37 <AnMaster> asiekierka, if you had asked for the wiki page I would have said slashes
20:28:45 <AnMaster> however I prefer using the correct language name
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20:29:52 <AnMaster> asiekierka, still I think SPL is a good idea
20:30:04 <AnMaster> asiekierka, or what about Taxi?
20:30:17 <ehird> oklopol: you might wanna subscribe to the lists
20:30:31 <AnMaster> asiekierka, not very interesting though really
20:30:43 <AnMaster> asiekierka, some functional language maybe?
20:31:28 <asiekierka> a Cbot isn't just as interesting as a Taxibot
20:31:42 <AnMaster> asiekierka, there are functional esolangs
20:31:59 <ehird> asiekierka doesn't know what functional means, AnMaster
20:32:08 <asiekierka> unlambda, i don't know the lambda calculus
20:32:08 <oklopol> ehird: if you link fazzzzt, i might do it just now
20:32:20 <ehird> oklopol: needs a bit of copy pasting :(
20:32:24 <AnMaster> ehird, or does unlamda lack input?
20:32:25 <ehird> oklopol: http://agoranomic.org/ under how to play, subscribe to all of the lists
20:32:34 <ehird> oklopol: you only need official, business and discussion
20:32:39 <ehird> you can do backup whenever
20:32:50 <oklopol> do i actually have to do something? i wanna start things slow.
20:32:56 <AnMaster> ehird, and I know what functional means, however I find it hard keeping those under* un* languages apart
20:33:00 <AnMaster> they have quite similiar names
20:33:14 <ehird> oklopol: note that you'll get like 5-20 emails a day
20:33:15 <oklopol> btw, another way to fill our server with crap
20:33:15 <AnMaster> ehird, so what did you mean exactly?
20:33:23 <ehird> oklopol: if you can might wanna set up a filter to put it all in an 'agora' folder
20:33:27 <oklopol> also that's quite simple to crack, so feel free
20:33:53 <AnMaster> asiekierka, it got input and output
20:33:56 <oklopol> (but tell me so i can fix everything, since i submitted that piece of crap as a course project :P)
20:34:21 <asiekierka> aaaagh, malbolge? do you want my brain to explode!?
20:34:42 <AnMaster> asiekierka, http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Language_list#S
20:34:47 <AnMaster> asiekierka, http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Language_list
20:35:57 <ehird> oklopol: but yea, definitely need to subscribe to official, discussion and business
20:35:58 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:36:03 <ehird> as theyre only used when the lists are down
20:36:09 <ehird> which was last a few months ago
20:36:21 -!- asiekierka has joined.
20:36:22 <ais523> or when scamming a new public forum
20:36:24 <ehird> yo don't have to do anything
20:36:25 <ais523> which was last done this week
20:36:27 <ehird> unless you explicitly opt in
20:36:28 <asiekierka> I want a 2D language, so i can check 2d languages
20:36:39 <ais523> that definitely isn't a funge
20:36:44 <ais523> but is rubbish for a bot
20:36:46 <ehird> oklopol: if you get bored of just reading and wanna do stuff, the fully annotated ruleset is at http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.txt
20:37:22 <oklopol> ehird: and will you tell me how to make all the agoran stuff go to a specific folder on gmail? i have no idea how to do that.
20:37:30 <ehird> i'll tell you via /msg
20:38:14 <AnMaster> asiekierka, Taxi with input and output connected to some program to handle network connection sounds good
20:38:32 <ais523> AnMaster: thutubot is just loop-connected to the IRC channel using netcat and a fifo
20:38:50 <ais523> you could even do it with telnet
20:38:56 <ais523> which is on Windows by default IIRC
20:39:11 <ais523> on the other hand, Windows doesn't have FIFOs, so the plumbing might be harder
20:39:22 <AnMaster> ais523, not using windows telnet I suspect
20:39:59 <AnMaster> (and to ehird, OS X can be considered a *BSD)
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20:40:19 <ehird> AnMaster: Congrats, now asiekierka has you down as their personal tech support for installing cygwin...
20:40:33 <AnMaster> ehird, no? why would I do that
20:40:48 <ehird> AnMaster: It's hard to ignore asiekierka ...
20:40:57 <AnMaster> ehird, since I haven't used cygwin for over 4 years
20:41:05 <AnMaster> I would be totally unable to help anyway
20:42:33 <ais523> you can pipe programs together
20:42:40 <ais523> the problem is connecting the pipe around in a loop
20:42:46 <ais523> from Taxi to nc and back to Taxi
20:42:52 <ais523> on Unix, you can use a FIFO for that
20:43:04 <ais523> but I don't know how it works on Windows, if at all
20:43:05 <asiekierka> But netcat sends/receives the data to/from...?
20:43:14 <ais523> nc irc.freenode.net 6667
20:43:24 <ais523> will send from its stdin to Freenode, and from Freenode to its stdout
20:44:15 <asiekierka> So you mean, i must raw-write the IRC protocol?
20:44:51 <asiekierka> Also, Befunge would be awesome, if it only allowed to have separate files
20:45:05 <ais523> asiekierka: it does, you can load them with O
20:45:22 <ais523> grr... I keep forgetting Befunge commands
20:46:48 <ais523> asiekierka: b98 has more commands
20:46:54 <ais523> an unlimited-size playfield
20:46:59 <ais523> and spaces work differnetly in strings
20:47:17 <ais523> "abc def" has two spaces in the middle in b-93
20:47:21 <ais523> but one space in the middle in b-98
20:47:33 <ais523> having an infinite number of spaces in the middle
20:49:01 <fungot> asiekierka: i get to wait for processes? files? sockets?
20:49:18 <Deewiant> ais523: it's mnemonic: i for input, o for output
20:49:50 <Deewiant> asiekierka: and, another difference is dividing by zero
20:49:59 <Deewiant> gives zero in befunge-98, asks the user in befunge-93
20:50:26 <fungot> asiekierka: was that scheme-only compilers you were mentioning
20:50:48 <asiekierka> i wasn't mentioning any scheme-only compilers! right?
20:51:16 <asiekierka> i stopped noticing fungotexts from normal chat
20:51:16 <ais523> optbot: are you a fungot?
20:51:16 <fungot> asiekierka: but then how do you use
20:51:16 <fungot> ais523: code objects are treated as such!! do you have lying around?
20:51:31 <asiekierka> I remember when i did a trick with CO2Bot
20:51:41 <fungot> asiekierka: your brain is fucked" xd family guy is so right, i understand.
20:51:42 <optbot> asiekierka: TYPEINFO IN PLOF!!!!!
20:52:06 <ais523> it's still busily trying to count to 64
20:52:17 <asiekierka> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHH
20:52:30 <ais523> it's at 95% CPU usage atm
20:52:45 <ais523> what you're observing there is O(n^6) time or something silly like that
20:52:46 <ais523> I never bothered to calculate it exactly
20:53:36 <ais523> maybe I should bring in a second thutubot
20:53:59 <optbot> ais523: probably best to move onto variables now
20:53:59 <optbot> fungot: in any case, unsigned char value; should work
20:54:00 <fungot> optbot: so does foxfire chat in here.
20:54:00 <optbot> fungot: http://www.www.www/
20:54:01 <fungot> optbot: but you said ' a verifier for a fnord
20:54:01 <fungot> optbot: high five fnord :p
20:54:02 <optbot> fungot: at least not to me... done lots of thinking on different ways to specify infinite lists
20:54:36 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc xaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul
20:54:46 <ais523> most of those are CO2Games spam, by the way
20:54:47 <optbot> asiekierka: Step 3. Go to step 5.
20:54:47 <optbot> fungot: I should make a small list of lambda expressions to short combinators.
20:55:19 <ais523> in the end fizzie banned CO2Games from fungot, IIRC
20:55:19 <fungot> ais523: still testing it with an address for which addr n 0?
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21:27:49 <AnMaster> <ais523> having an infinite number of spaces in the middle
21:27:57 <ais523> AnMaster: Befunge wraps
21:28:11 <ais523> then if you weren't using SGML spaces
21:28:18 <ais523> you could put an infinite number of spaces in a string
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21:28:55 <AnMaster> ais523, first: is that the whole program?
21:29:19 <AnMaster> then it will push 0xd, 0xe, 0xf, space, 0xa, 0xb, 0xc and repeat
21:29:20 <ais523> if you want a complete program as an example
21:29:33 <ais523> I'm trying to explain why b98 uses SGML spaces
21:29:42 <ais523> if it didn't you'd get an infinite number of spaces
21:29:52 <AnMaster> ais523, I still don't see how it cause infinite spaces
21:30:06 <AnMaster> ais523, since string mode wrap at program edge
21:30:19 <ais523> ah, I treat Funge as not having a program edge, really
21:30:29 <AnMaster> so you will get one space at edge probably
21:30:35 <AnMaster> at least that happens in ccbi and cfunge iirc
21:30:55 <AnMaster> ais523, yet you won't get infinite spaces
21:31:24 <AnMaster> ais523, since wrapping works the same way in strings as outside them
21:32:03 <ais523> which is to conceptually go off to infinity and back the other side
21:32:13 <ais523> IMO that's the only sensible way to interpret Funge-98
21:32:16 <ais523> as everything else is a hack
21:32:55 <AnMaster> <ais523> optbot: are you a fungot? <optbot> ais523: Indeed. <-- hehehe
21:32:56 <fungot> AnMaster: vhdl is reactive by the nature of this channel
21:33:45 <AnMaster> <ais523> which is to conceptually go off to infinity and back the other side <-- no
21:33:58 <AnMaster> ais523, the interpreter keeps track of where the program data exists
21:34:15 <AnMaster> then it wraps when you hit the edge for said bounding box
21:34:33 <ais523> well, that's how interpreters work
21:34:38 <oerjan> * AnMaster considers a strongly typed LISP
21:34:38 <ais523> but that's conceptually ugly
21:34:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes statically strongly typed even
21:34:50 <oerjan> there is Liskell, haskell with lisp syntax
21:35:01 <AnMaster> ais523, read the definition of wrapping then
21:35:23 <AnMaster> ais523, http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html#Wrapping
21:35:25 <ais523> it's going back along the line you came from
21:35:43 <AnMaster> ais523, Lahey-space is in an appendix, the section I linked isn't
21:35:52 <ais523> well, it talks about going beyond addressable space
21:35:54 <AnMaster> so I suspect the algorithmic description is more correct
21:35:59 <ais523> which is the whole 2^31-1 IMO
21:36:35 <fizzie> Note that it doesn't say anything about using a rectangular bounding box.
21:36:49 <AnMaster> however I have yet to see an interpreter that doesn't
21:37:15 <AnMaster> "When the IP attempts to travel into the whitespace between the code and the end of known, addressable space, it backtracks."
21:37:23 <fizzie> AnMaster: GLfunge98. :p
21:37:36 <AnMaster> "Travelling thus, it finds the other 'edge' of code when there is again nothing but whitespace in front of it. It is reflected 180 degrees once more (to restore its original delta) and stops ignoring instructions. Execution then resumes normally - the wrap is complete."
21:37:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, really? what does it use then? a counter for each line?
21:38:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway it also needs to track the bounding rect for y, and it needs to track the rect for non-cardinal wrapping, since even if it tracks per line/column what if you exit the edge diagonally, but end up on a longer line in the next jump
21:39:02 <fizzie> AnMaster: There was a tree-like structure of I think 16x16- or 64x64-sized blocks; I'm not sure if it was a multi-level tree or not, probably should've been for programs that use funge-space that's out there in the middle of nowhere. In any case, it would trigger wrapping when you exited a block and there were no more blocks in the outgoing line.
21:39:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, so it handled non-cardinal wrapping correctly?
21:39:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: It certainly tried to. There may have been bugs, but at least it mostly worked. I think. It's been quite a while, and the code was very very ugly.
21:40:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, does fungot work under it?
21:40:18 <fungot> AnMaster: another example of the sort you're talking about
21:40:52 <fizzie> AnMaster: Probably not. I didn't implement a lot of fingerprints, I'm not sure I did STRN for example. The development sort-of stalled quite early.
21:41:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, how about mycology?
21:41:39 <fizzie> Never ran it under it; hadn't even heard of mycology until recently. I think Deewiant ran some tests with GLfunge98, though.
21:42:06 <fizzie> Yeah, only FOON, FPSP, NULL, ROMA, SCKE, SOCK are implemented.
21:42:18 <fizzie> That's just sillitude.
21:43:07 <fizzie> It just implements this number-to-string-and-back mapping: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.misc/browse_thread/thread/5eeb8154a2a9ac0c/07f29c8ea40c35a3
21:43:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster, fizzie: GLfunge98 fails due to "# <" jumping over the <.
21:43:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: iiuc Liskell also has macros in the lisp style
21:43:46 <fizzie> Really, I wrote that thing back in 2001.
21:44:02 <ehird> fizzie: You wrote http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.misc/browse_thread/thread/5eeb8154a2a9ac0c/07f29c8ea40c35a3?
21:44:25 <fizzie> ehird: No, that's not me. But a friend wrote a Befunge-93 program to convert numbers to that.
21:44:39 <fizzie> ehird: I have no idea why I have made a fingerprint for that.
21:45:06 <fizzie> Oh, right! The fingerprint was there to test the shared library that did the conversion.
21:45:32 <ehird> Wait, fizzie wrote glfunge?
21:45:53 <fizzie> I did, but I'm not very proud about it.
21:46:07 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, but quux just leads to quuux, quuuux, ...
21:46:36 <ehird> Asztal: Don't call it sponge, btw.
21:46:39 <ehird> http://cubonegro.orgfree.com/sponge/sponge.html
21:46:59 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's just one scheme to generate... I was going to say an arbitrary, but it's not that; in any case, to generate a relatively large amount of names.
21:47:22 <fizzie> I think there was some sort of extension to larger numbers than that. Maybe archive.org still has mooz's befunge pages.
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21:48:43 <fizzie> Yes, it does. Seems that he extended the Razzle, Dazzle sequence of suffixes with Giggle and Wiggle.
21:48:50 <ehird> Asztal: Call it egnuf
21:48:52 <Asztal> (thanks for the warning, though)
21:49:18 <AnMaster> I can't find what Asztal wanted to name in the scrollback
21:49:50 <Asztal> AnMaster: a befunge interpeter
21:50:00 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, one thing I find amusing about sponge is that it is compiles scheme, but is coded in common lisp
21:50:05 <Asztal> which is bad, since the other Sponge is also befunge-related :(
21:50:17 <ehird> Asztal: yes, call it eggnog!
21:50:29 <Asztal> beMunge, because munge is what it does :)
21:51:19 <AnMaster> Asztal, some names I know are in use: cfunge, efunge, ccbi, fbbi, rc/funge, !befunge, zfunge, glfunge, mycology, and a few more
21:52:52 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 129 for beMunge. (0.13 seconds) <-- turns out it think there are 25 hits when I show the last page... huh
21:53:04 <Deewiant> then there's bequnge, fungus, language::befunge AKA jqbf, pyfunge
21:53:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however creating a glfunge93 or such would be highly confusing :P
21:53:27 <AnMaster> at least if it wasn't same author
21:53:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://www.digitalnature.org/fungi/alfabetic.html - take your pick
21:54:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Hm does mycology handle strange cases of io support correctly? Such as just o but not i supported, or vice verse?
21:54:35 <Deewiant> I think it complains about not being able to test
21:55:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I remember it used to print BAD because it, back in the beginning of the year when I hadn't written those parts in cfunge yet
21:55:25 <oerjan> hm what about truffles
21:55:28 <AnMaster> iirc you fixed it after I pointed out it was allowed not to support it in the standard
21:56:17 <AnMaster> "Bovine Bolete" <-- did FBBI get it's name from that or something?
21:56:43 <ehird> oerjan: click that page
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21:57:20 <oerjan> ehird: i know it's alphabetic, what about it?
21:57:53 <ehird> oerjan: it says "alfabetic"
21:59:35 <AnMaster> oh btw sponge generates insanely slow code
22:00:00 <Deewiant> what do you expect, scheme doesn't map very well to befunge :-P
22:00:04 <AnMaster> "No tail call optimization." <-- ugh
22:00:12 <AnMaster> that should break lots of stuff
22:00:14 <ehird> how dare it not be production ready!
22:00:26 <AnMaster> ehird, tail call is kind of central to scheme
22:00:26 <ehird> my corporation depends on scheme->befunge technology!
22:00:37 <ehird> AnMaster: its a proof of concept.
22:00:52 <AnMaster> ehird, yet you overreacted on my comment
22:00:58 <ehird> no, that was sarcasm
22:03:40 <GregorR> I had forgotten how crappy all sodas that aren't Moxie are.
22:04:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, Sodas? You mean fizzy water?
22:04:29 <AnMaster> I'm a bit unclear over the English words there
22:04:57 <ais523> soda has varying meanings even within English
22:04:59 <AnMaster> GregorR, I dislike any fizzy water
22:05:06 <AnMaster> prefer tap water around here at least
22:05:16 <GregorR> Fizzy water with flavor :P
22:05:21 <ais523> I generally don't know what someone is referring to when they say soda even if we're both native english people
22:05:29 <ais523> as different people have different concepts of what it is
22:05:47 <GregorR> AnMaster: You just haven't tried Moxie yet :P
22:06:02 -!- olsner has joined.
22:06:14 <AnMaster> Just plain, non-fizzy water, tap water if not too much chlorine in it
22:06:42 <GregorR> I shouldn't have said "yes" to "fizzy water" ... I assumed you meant flavored fizzie water :P
22:06:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, well yes that is *way way* worse
22:06:57 <GregorR> We rarely drink plain carbonated water in the US.
22:07:14 <GregorR> Plain carbonated water = gross though :P
22:07:21 <ais523> GregorR: it's actually kind-of common in the UK
22:07:32 <ais523> but it's about 100 times more expensive than it ought to be
22:07:42 <AnMaster> how can anyone like carbonated *anything*?
22:07:45 <GregorR> ais523: When I was in Prague for a conference they only provided carbonated water during the conference.
22:07:55 <ais523> AnMaster: some people like the taste of carbonic acid
22:07:58 <GregorR> ais523: Which would be fine if carbonated water wasn't so completely gross.
22:08:05 <ais523> I don't like flavoured water BTW, but I do like lemonade
22:08:12 <GregorR> AnMaster: SODA POP. Like Coca-Cola.
22:08:16 <AnMaster> that is properly flavoured "water"
22:08:23 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
22:08:29 <ais523> GregorR: I've never heard coca-cola described as a soda before
22:08:43 <ais523> the word has really different meanings in different places
22:08:47 <GregorR> ARGH REGIONALISMS ARE MAKING MY BRAIN IMPLODE
22:08:48 <pikhq> ais523: Um, coke is the definitive soda.
22:09:11 <AnMaster> non-carbonated coke could be ok I guess
22:09:27 <GregorR> I'm taking my Moxie-love to some other channel :P
22:09:33 <pikhq> Uncarbonated coke? That's evil.
22:09:39 <AnMaster> Just can't stand what carbonated drinks do to my stomach
22:09:46 <pikhq> Apparently AnMaster has never had flat soda.
22:09:48 <AnMaster> and it doesn't even taste any good
22:10:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, unless it have too much chlorine
22:10:26 <AnMaster> then non-carbonated bottled water
22:10:29 * oerjan takes another sip of tap water
22:10:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah where I live the tap water is very good
22:10:50 <AnMaster> much worse when you visit Gothenburg or other big cities
22:11:46 <pikhq> The tap water here is kinda bad. Tastes of chlorine.
22:12:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, well when I am at such places I tend to buy non-carbonated water bottled water
22:12:39 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, they're known for doing that
22:12:39 <ais523> hmm... probably liking or disliking carbonic acid is different between different people
22:12:49 <AnMaster> ais523, "big cities", "bottles" or?
22:13:05 <ais523> ais523: carbonated drinks are known for messing up stomachs
22:13:32 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Apparently AnMaster has never had flat soda. <-- If I have to drink coke I try to get rid of the fizzyness before drinking
22:13:51 <AnMaster> dropping some sugar in the drink tends to help with that
22:13:51 <pikhq> AnMaster, you are demonic.
22:14:01 <AnMaster> probably nucleation sites or something
22:14:11 <AnMaster> (or does that only apply to boiling?)
22:14:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, well carbonation is devlishish
22:14:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think it applies to carbonation too, google the mentos + coke effect
22:15:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah well I guess that is what happens then
22:16:01 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: yes, they're known for doing that
22:16:03 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, "big cities", "bottles" or?
22:16:08 <ais523> AnMaster: carbonated drinks
22:16:18 <ais523> are known for messing up stomachs
22:16:32 <AnMaster> ais523, well we had mentioned a lot of stuff in between
22:17:27 <oerjan> in our city the water authorities occasionally advertise how good and cheap the water is. for some reasons norwegians buy a lot of bottled water despite the tap water often being better
22:17:42 <AnMaster> ais523, well also I'd say major cities are known for adding lots of chlorine to tap water
22:17:59 <ais523> well, Birmingham tap water is excellent IMO, I don't like the tap water in most of the rest of the UK though
22:18:12 <ais523> and I think the water's split up by water company here, rather than by city size
22:18:13 <AnMaster> ais523, hm how much chlorine is used ther?
22:18:20 <ais523> not sure, but I can't taste any
22:18:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, don't know if you have the word "studiebesök" in NNorwegian but wtf is it in English?
22:18:57 <AnMaster> like a school class visiting some industry or such and being shown around
22:20:46 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando").
22:20:47 <AnMaster> anyway I was on a "studiebesök" to the local vattenverk (water cleaning plant???) years ago. And they said they hardly needed to add any chlorine to the water at all.
22:21:45 <ehird> AnMaster: no, just double meaninged words
22:21:51 <GregorR> No, this would be a Freudian slip:
22:21:53 <ehird> also never hard of moxie
22:21:59 <ehird> GregorR: Penis is awesome yeah
22:22:13 <ehird> what does moxie taste like
22:22:21 <oerjan> GregorR: that's a bit much. what about: Cok is awesome
22:22:21 * AnMaster consider a reverse Freudian slip
22:22:24 <GregorR> ehird: I'm told it's similar to bitter root beer, but I don't agree with that.
22:22:27 <AnMaster> you meant to say something dirty
22:22:33 <AnMaster> but said something innocent instead
22:22:40 <AnMaster> and correct yourself to the dirty one
22:22:52 <GregorR> ehird: I can't equate it to anything else. It's not entirely dissimilar to root beer or coke, but it isn't all that similar to either.
22:22:53 <AnMaster> ehird, something like that yeah heheh
22:23:17 <ehird> Also http://www.baconsalt.com/
22:24:02 <ais523> ehird: no, I don't want to...
22:24:13 <ehird> whyever not? ! ! !
22:24:50 <oerjan> ehird: to go with egg and bacon icecream?
22:25:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, actually only egg icecream
22:25:29 <AnMaster> since you get the bacon from the drink
22:25:30 <ehird> fuck you guys, bacon soda sounds great
22:25:37 <oerjan> AnMaster: alas i think icecream already contains eggs
22:25:40 * GregorR is now strongly considering buying bacon salt :P
22:25:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, so having bacon in the icecream too would be redundant
22:25:54 <GregorR> ehird: Everything /should/ taste like bacon ...
22:26:15 <ehird> everything should taste of either bacon or chocolate
22:26:20 <ehird> and chocolate bacon should taste like amazing
22:26:42 <ehird> hmm... chocolate bacon soda
22:26:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm told they taste like bacon :P
22:26:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Uh-huh. :P
22:27:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't actually like either of them, nor bacon
22:27:14 <AnMaster> bacon is really a horrible thing to do with meat
22:27:25 <oerjan> of course there should be bacon with the lutefisk
22:27:37 <AnMaster> I can't say I know the details
22:27:50 <ehird> bacon is horrible?!
22:28:18 * ehird revokes AnMaster's humanity license
22:28:20 <GregorR> ehird: AnMaster clearly has no taste :P
22:28:27 <AnMaster> ehird, taste is highly subjective
22:28:30 <GregorR> ehird: Doesn't like Coke or bacon? Honestly.
22:28:44 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm sorry, I can't hear you, because you can't talk, because you're not a human
22:28:52 <GregorR> AnMaster: So is smell, but nobody thinks roses smell like fart :P
22:29:01 <GregorR> (I can't talk, I hate cheese :P )
22:29:09 <oerjan> would dropping bacon in coke remove the carbonation, i wonder
22:29:23 <AnMaster> mostly hard, and not soft ones
22:29:38 <AnMaster> cheddar is one of my all time favourites btw.
22:29:47 <AnMaster> though I like several other ones
22:29:56 <oerjan> GregorR: there are some medical conditions that cause things to smell differently, i think
22:29:59 <AnMaster> ehird, what you don't like cheese!?
22:30:09 <ais523> oerjan: or not at all in some cases
22:30:16 * AnMaster revokes ehird's humanity license
22:30:20 <ais523> also, I can't eat cheese for medical reasons
22:30:20 <GregorR> ehird: Wait, you don't like cheese either?
22:30:29 <ehird> Not most of the time
22:30:33 <GregorR> ehird: A kindred spirit! :P
22:30:33 <ais523> at least, not very much
22:30:34 <AnMaster> ais523, must really really hurt
22:30:36 <ehird> There are some circumstances in which I like it
22:30:42 <ais523> and I sort of like it, but not all taht much
22:32:12 * AnMaster wonders who will agree/disagree on that
22:32:21 -!- ais523 has changed nick to AntiGarlicMonser.
22:32:23 -!- AntiGarlicMonser has changed nick to AntiGarlicMonste.
22:32:41 * AnMaster is now know as ThisNickIsWayWayWayTooLon
22:32:53 * oerjan breathes on the AntiGarlicMonste
22:33:01 <AntiGarlicMonste> AnMaster: did you manage to get that to hit the length limit exactly?
22:33:28 -!- AntiGarlicMonste has changed nick to ais523.
22:33:29 <AnMaster> AntiGarlicMonste, did it look the same in your client?
22:33:44 <ais523> there were the wrong number of *s at the start
22:33:49 <ais523> and it was the wrong colour
22:33:54 <ais523> I just wasn't paying attention
22:33:55 <AnMaster> + Nick change: AntiGarlicMonste -> ais523
22:34:06 <ais523> was up until almost 5am the night before last
22:34:08 <ais523> *** You are now known as ais523.
22:34:19 <oerjan> 23:33 AntiGarlicMonste is now known as ais523
22:34:34 <AnMaster> ais523, also how can you not like garlic?
22:34:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: duh he's a vampire obviously
22:34:56 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm neutral towards it, I don't eat it all that much
22:35:13 <GregorR> I have actually cooked garlic in a little bit of oil and eaten it just like that.
22:35:51 <GregorR> And garlic-grilled onions = best food there is that doesn't involve killing animals.
22:35:56 <AnMaster> GregorR, try putting a whole garlic (with the shell or whatever the English word is still on) on a bed of salt, then put it in the oven for a while
22:36:17 <AnMaster> then you squeeze the stuff out of the garlic when you eat it
22:36:32 <GregorR> AnMaster: Sounds simple enough - next time I happen to have whole garlic I will.
22:36:43 <AnMaster> GregorR, don't have the needed time or temperature data around here
22:37:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, also it should be coarse sal
22:37:13 <GregorR> Oh, that complicates things :)
22:37:51 <AnMaster> GregorR, actually the salt is mostly there to provide some insulation iirc. So using beans or something could work
22:39:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, that wasn't a problem as it grows just outside the kitchen window
22:40:09 <AnMaster> GregorR, anyway I shall try to find the recipe sometime soon
22:40:44 <AnMaster> oh new topic: vanilla icecream is the best flavour of icecream
22:41:14 <ais523> actually, I like both vanilla and strawberry
22:41:18 <AnMaster> ehird, made from fresh vanilla pods!
22:41:31 <ehird> AnMaster: It's ice cream, who cares :-P
22:41:39 <ehird> It's not like it could be _bad_
22:41:40 <AnMaster> the ice cream you find in shops is yuck IMO
22:42:15 <oklopol> i like my ice cream with cheese and onions.
22:42:23 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, kind of, not enough cream in the stuff in shops
22:42:36 <ehird> oklopol: Delicious!
22:42:48 <AnMaster> ehird, you said you didn't like cheese
22:43:11 <AnMaster> who knows when it comes to him indeed
22:44:10 <GregorR> REAL Vanilla ice cream is the best, yes. That being said, I don't like ice cream any more, but that's part of my progressive dislike of dairy products.
22:44:26 <GregorR> Is it purely an American thing that companies market no-flavor ice cream as "vanilla"?
22:44:58 <GregorR> It's usually better when only America is stupid :P
22:45:13 <ehird> I like all ice cream, really. How can you not?
22:46:31 <GregorR> I never liked milk, then I stopped liking cheese, then I stopped liking yogurt, then milk chocolate, now ice cream. Next up on my progressive dairy-hatred would probably be sour cream if I had to venture a guess.
22:46:33 <AnMaster> GregorR, when I mean ice cream I mean *home made* icecream
22:46:44 <AnMaster> GregorR, from real vanilla yes
22:46:44 <GregorR> AnMaster: We don't home-make stuff in the US :P
22:47:03 <AnMaster> GregorR, well my mom is a gardening geek or something like that
22:47:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Fyi, there's not actually enough of a difference in taste to call them separate things, it's just pretension :-P
22:47:17 <ehird> Not that there's anything wrong with pretension
22:47:31 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a differ in taste on the real stuff
22:47:36 <AnMaster> "<GregorR> Is it purely an American thing that companies market no-flavor ice cream as "vanilla"?"
22:47:40 <ehird> Everything differs in taste.
22:48:06 <AnMaster> really a majority of the ice cream you can buy is like that
22:48:18 <AnMaster> use fresh vanilla pods when you make your icecream!
22:48:35 <AnMaster> or if you can't find that, at least dried vanilla pods
22:48:49 <AnMaster> avoid the "vanilla flavoured sugar" stuff
22:51:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, wait around 1 year and 2 months with that
22:51:42 * oerjan now wonders who else isn't a teen here. GregorR and ais523 maybe?
22:51:55 <ehird> or in here at all?
22:52:05 <ehird> lament is 20-something i think
22:52:05 <AnMaster> actually 1 year, 2 months and sizeof(October) - 9
22:52:16 <ehird> dbc is... i dunno, 2x-3x
22:52:21 <ehird> fizzie is.. i dunno
22:52:28 <ehird> Deewiant is 2x, iirc
22:52:35 <ehird> ... really, we should be counting the teens
22:52:42 <ehird> oh, psygnisfive is 21
22:53:08 <ehird> let's instead count the teens
22:53:13 <oerjan> hm i had the impression the teens were the majority :D
22:53:23 <oklopol> ehird: i occasionally put clue cheese on my ice cream, other than that, i guess i wasn't serious; then again, i don't eat ice cream that often.
22:53:24 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe they're just noisy. :p
22:53:27 <ais523> oerjan is probably 648
22:53:33 <ehird> AnMaster: bsmntbombdood comex oklopol pikhq
22:53:39 <ehird> i think that's all the teens
22:53:50 <ais523> oerjan: ah, good guess then on my part
22:54:04 <ehird> Asztal: oc2k1: Jiminy_Cricket: DarkPants: how old are you
22:54:06 <ais523> ehird: thutubot is only a year or so old, possibly less
22:54:26 <ais523> hmm... I wonder if cmeme's a teen?
22:54:43 <ais523> but really, when would they have been created?
22:54:45 <fizzie> fungot's almost two months old, but I have no idea what that makes in "funge-bot years".
22:54:45 <fungot> fizzie: it's from an amiga demo. ;p
22:54:50 <ais523> IRC's been around for a while
22:55:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, could you plot the age distribution or something
22:55:22 <fizzie> Too much work to pick up the numbers here.
22:55:35 <AnMaster> (and I noted you down as the statistician here, since you tend to make good graphs :P)
22:55:41 <ais523> and logbots are an obvious thing to do with it
22:56:18 <oc2k1> why should anyone answer.....
22:56:27 <ehird> anyway the ones i listed are definitely teens
22:56:33 <ehird> well maybe oklopol had a birthday
22:56:42 <ehird> oc2k1: Why shouldn't they?
22:56:56 <ais523> AnMaster: no, ehird did
22:56:58 <ais523> it's just that I'm the only person who can tell as we're on the same bouncer
22:57:01 <oklopol> oc2k1: don't answer, you'll lose your mystery
22:57:02 <ais523> except that neither ehird nor me will respond to pings when offline
22:57:02 <ehird> Oh, right. If you reveal your age we'll see if you're young enough, track down your address, and stalk & rape you
22:57:12 <oc2k1> If you need a statistic fake one :P
22:57:59 <AnMaster> ais523, I did whois on both of you
22:58:12 <ais523> thutubot's still using 95% of my CPU by the way
22:58:24 <ais523> and no, but /ctcp ping gives it away
22:58:31 <ais523> there's no response if we're offline
22:58:35 <AnMaster> ais523, yet it haven't timed out?
22:58:35 <ais523> and there is if we're online
22:59:30 <ais523> heh, it timed out hours ago
22:59:38 <AnMaster> ais523, it is connected here..
22:59:38 <ais523> but is still doing the calculation
22:59:44 <ais523> yes, that's the other strange part
22:59:52 <ais523> it's not receiving messages from Freenode any more though
22:59:53 <AnMaster> ais523, it was the strange part I meant
23:00:06 <AnMaster> ais523, wonderful. Probably hyperion being buggy
23:00:15 <AnMaster> ais523, also how can count to 64 be so hard?
23:00:16 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:00:25 <ehird> its interpreting underload
23:00:29 <ehird> (a string rewriting language)
23:00:42 <ais523> AnMaster's wtf is at why Freenode hadn't booted it off
23:00:49 <ehird> AnMaster: ais523, also how can count to 64 be so hard?
23:00:49 <ais523> although it hadn't responded to pings for hours
23:00:53 <ehird> ^ that is what i responded to
23:00:57 <oerjan> freenode's boots are in the wash
23:01:00 <AnMaster> ais523, and why it disconnected at ctrl-c
23:01:34 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes on freenode just being active on the socket is enough
23:01:40 <AnMaster> but if you weren't that either...
23:02:01 <ais523> freenode had stopped sending data
23:02:10 <AnMaster> ais523, yes that is even more strange
23:03:06 <ehird> wonder who the oldest one here is
23:03:09 <AnMaster> what sort of floating point is the floating point numbers in scheme btw?
23:03:13 <ehird> so far, calamari @ 31
23:03:53 <AnMaster> rite? Some "comming-of-age rite"?
23:04:29 <Asztal> ehird: how old are you?
23:04:36 <ehird> Asztal: 13 since August.
23:04:45 <ehird> AnMaster: no, asie
23:05:01 <AnMaster> ehird, haven't seen asie iirc?
23:05:05 <ehird> AnMaster: asiekierka
23:05:21 <AnMaster> ehird, that explains a lot about him/her ;P
23:22:42 <AnMaster> question: do you prefer top-down or bottom-up design when programming?
23:23:56 <ehird> top-up or bottom-down
23:24:22 <ehird> i actually do more like top-middle-down
23:24:29 <ehird> i.e. i do both at the same time converging on middle
23:24:42 <ehird> occasionally stretching the abstraction boundry higher or lower each side
23:24:55 <ehird> i just code what feels like needs to be coded now, really
23:25:05 <ehird> rapid incremental development means it basically just evolves while I use i t
23:25:42 <AnMaster> ehird, yes same, however... top-down makes creating abstractions much easier
23:26:00 <ehird> AnMaster: I have a text editor and can refine code using its functionality.
23:26:06 <ehird> I hear the new buzzword for that nowadays is "refactoring".
23:27:37 <ehird> Huh. Google resell eNom domain names if you say you don't own a domain in google apps setup.
23:28:13 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENom
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00:50:03 <psygnisfive> a kind of grammar for handling the notion that phrases are headed
00:50:15 <psygnisfive> and that deeeeeply nested structures can be headed by things way down in them
00:51:18 <psygnisfive> for instance a verb phrase is really a phrase built around a verb
00:51:54 <psygnisfive> but the kind of grammar, a head-driven grammar, is pretty cool
00:53:56 <psygnisfive> it basically works like this: you have a pair, like <w1w2w3w4, 3>
00:54:13 <psygnisfive> the second is an index specifying which of those words is the head
00:54:53 <psygnisfive> to get the deeply nested headedness you'd use a function like so:
00:55:51 <psygnisfive> this is a left-branching construction, which says that you can take a phrase <s,i>
00:56:37 <psygnisfive> and "project" the head further up (that is, extend the phrase headed by s[i]) with some other phrase <t,j>
00:56:50 <psygnisfive> by adjoining <t,j> on the right, and producing the phrase <st,i>
00:56:58 <dbc> someone was asking
00:57:37 <psygnisfive> but because all of this stuff is indexed and so on you can do cool stuff
00:58:25 <ehird> dbc: yeah, first we were trying to work out the non-teens in here but then we realised there were more non-teens than teens
00:58:28 <ehird> so we just worked out the teens instead
00:58:51 <psygnisfive> Front(<w_1...w_n,i>) := <w_iw_1...w_i-1wi+1...w_m,1>
00:58:58 <ehird> dbc: btw your sunwait is down
01:01:27 <dbc> Thanks. I think I knew that but I forgot to take down the link.
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01:28:39 <psygnisfive> oh, something else thats apparently used frequently with head grammars is something like... whats called head wrapping:
01:29:22 <psygnisfive> RL2(<s,j>, <t,i>) := <t_1...t_i s t_i+1...t_n, i>
01:30:15 <psygnisfive> which they use to do shit like "taller than Sandy" is taken to be a constituent in sentences like "Kim is a much taller person than Sandy"
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01:31:12 <psygnisfive> and you get this discontinuity by headwrapping: RL2(<taller than sandy,1>, <person,1>) == <taller person than sandy, 1>
01:31:27 <psygnisfive> tho really it should <taller person than sandy, 2>
01:32:19 <psygnisfive> i wonder if something like this could be used in programming languages. its a queer but interesting kind of grammar
01:32:53 <psygnisfive> i suppose its a sort of unrestricted grammar, since it involves arbitrary sorts of rearrangement of elements
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01:52:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | lol.
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02:29:03 <ihope> Let's come up with random Thue sublanguages and try to figure out whether they're Turing-complete or not.
02:34:05 * ihope goes to random.org
02:37:02 <ihope> CGA ::= AA; CA ::= CAC; ACA ::= CC
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06:30:22 <optbot> asiekierka: as do I.. suprised he didn't tell anyone else
06:30:33 <optbot> fungot: there was a ", but" missing there, so I figured it might be deliberate
06:30:33 <fungot> optbot: just that i spend way too much.
06:30:34 <optbot> fungot: in terms of being terse
06:30:34 <fungot> optbot: i'm going with this? it goes against my ' never meeting neither suffering' rule.
06:30:35 <optbot> fungot: I'm kidding ;)
06:30:35 <fungot> optbot: help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen
06:30:35 <optbot> fungot: I have a huge text file called "INTEL 80386 PROGRAMMER'S REFERENCE MANUAL 1986"
06:30:36 <fungot> optbot: memory allocation is explicitly ignored in the spec
06:34:43 <asiekierka> and wondering how to interface with the irc protocol
06:34:47 <psygnisfive> so you're playing with yourself and with two bots
07:32:12 <oklopol> i'm definitely not a sinister whereabouts register
07:34:53 <psygnisfive> http://www.coverville.com/archives/2008/10/take_on_me_lite.html
07:47:23 <oklopol> is that the actual video, but different lyrics? ...or was the pipe wrench part by any chance added?
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07:50:18 <oklopol> right, after reading "literal cover", that's quite obvious
07:51:12 <oklopol> i've only seen part of that vid in family guy
07:52:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hmm.
07:59:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | try wxmaxima.
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08:01:17 <optbot> psygnisfive: ooh wait a complication - if some letter of a cycle is duplicated, you don't need to use swap for that cycle
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09:58:18 <Mony> foxtrot uniform charlie kilo
10:20:58 <oklopol> i ain't a care in the world
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12:38:16 <Slereah_> Guys, let's make a Candlejack themed esol
12:51:00 * oerjan thinks that would be seriously awkward to program in
12:55:11 <oerjan> I think we could recommend it for IRP use, however.
12:57:29 <oerjan> of course although it's the first time i hear of it, it's probably a dead horse trope^Wmeme already.
13:01:48 <oerjan> also, you already broke it in your first message above
13:02:59 <oklopol> have you joined a swat team recently or something?
13:04:19 <oerjan> since your mentioning the name had no effect, i can only conclude that you must be the villain yourself
13:07:30 * oerjan watches in horror as ehird is nidkapped
13:09:17 <oerjan> of course _someone_ had to have had that idea before
13:52:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | OTOH it makes it considerably harder to create virtual temporary variables.
13:53:14 <oerjan> virtually impossible, in fact
13:58:10 <oklopol> oh god it's easy to crack me up
13:58:51 <oerjan> that's because you are tired
14:02:40 * oerjan wonders if there is a fundamental entropy obstacle to cheaply extracting CO2 from the atmosphere
14:03:32 <oklopol> is there a bot with a language with a random() functerion
14:03:57 <fizzie> There's fungot, written in Befunge, which has the ?.
14:03:57 <fungot> oklopol: i mean " gives the correct results" but it should be
14:03:57 <fungot> fizzie: you can write portable scheme if you wanted
14:04:03 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
14:04:14 <fizzie> command that I haven't yet added to help.
14:04:33 <fizzie> fungot: Don't be so negative.
14:04:34 <fungot> fizzie: it is the tarpit winner :) i'll have none of that
14:05:16 <oklopol> Should I watch another charming episode of friends?
14:05:17 <oerjan> that didn't look overly uniform to me
14:05:29 <oerjan> oklopol: you can still /msg lambdabot
14:05:54 <fizzie> "bool" >?>0".oN" 61g:3+61p3P> ^
14:05:57 <fizzie> >17G0"loob"Q!|>0".seY" 61g:4+61p3P^
14:06:11 <oklopol> Then I ask again: Should I watch another episode?
14:06:31 <oklopol> oerjan: lambdabot is so mainstream, i don't wanna use it
14:06:49 <oerjan> well as long as you need only binary choices...
14:12:28 <oerjan> "The theoretically required energy for air capture is only slightly more than for capture from point sources."
14:12:53 <oerjan> so no to my entropy question i guess
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14:42:49 <AnMaster> Hm has anyone considered using radix trees for representing Funge-Space?
14:44:20 <AnMaster> hm probably wouldn't work well
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16:21:40 <GregorR> That should be "True" or "False" ...
16:21:45 <GregorR> I mean, it's an isomorphism, but still.
16:22:38 <ehird> GregorR: Shorter to write.
16:22:40 <ehird> in Befunge/Brainfuck.
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16:34:13 <oklopol> ehird: i had already gone.
16:35:11 <oklopol> AnMaster: what would the radices be?
16:39:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, row followed by column I guess
16:39:42 <AnMaster> except yes it doesn't work well when you have two values
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17:24:13 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2008_main_page_redesign_proposal#88wolfmaster Ain't broke don't fix it.
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17:28:56 <asiekierka> Is Modular SNUSP a good lang for an ircbot
17:30:14 <asiekierka> Also, how do you implement the IRC protocol, any good documents on that
17:30:16 <ais523> it's sort of BF-like, and BF isn't that bad
17:30:37 <ais523> really the only thing a bot needs to be able to do is send the logon sequence
17:30:38 <ehird> asiekierka: The RFC.
17:30:45 <ais523> normally you want it to respond to PRIVMSG too
17:30:51 <ehird> asiekierka: Tough.
17:30:59 <ehird> It's not hard to read.
17:31:16 <ehird> The RFC includes documentation of the logon sequence.
17:32:34 <oklopol> asiekierka: i suggest you ggl an irc bot if you want an easy way out.
17:32:40 <ais523> anyway, the logon sequence is:
17:32:44 <ehird> asiekierka: http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/rfc.html.
17:32:53 <ais523> USER hostname x x :Real Name
17:32:57 <ais523> where the xs are ignored
17:33:04 <ais523> you also probably want
17:33:04 <oklopol> yes, and just remember to put a \r\n after all messages.
17:33:15 <ehird> ais523: Please, don't spoonfeed him.
17:33:20 <oklopol> before doing join, you have to wait for the motd to finish
17:33:26 <ehird> Too many times he has said "How can I get info about X, apart from the definitive source about X>"
17:33:33 <ais523> Freenode will queue it up otherwise
17:33:35 <ehird> So just _let him read the RFC_
17:33:44 <oklopol> asiekierka: you can just skip the pass
17:34:01 <oklopol> nothing wrong with spoonfeeding something like this imo :\
17:34:11 <ehird> But then we have to tell him every detail of IRC all the way through.
17:34:13 <ehird> And that's ridiculous.
17:34:19 <ehird> We'd just end up copypasting the RFC.
17:35:29 <oklopol> ais523: okay you don't need to wait for it, but
17:35:38 <oklopol> you need to pong the ping that comes in the middle of the motd
17:35:54 <ais523> oklopol: you have a few seconds to do that
17:35:56 <asiekierka> also, you mean USER username x x :Realname
17:35:58 <ehird> freenode ignores pings
17:35:59 <ais523> and you can pong it after the JOIN
17:36:01 <ehird> you can never ping, ever
17:36:10 <ehird> and yes, asiekierka
17:36:12 <ais523> the username part of the hostname
17:36:22 <ais523> the xs would imply the other parts, but no sane server trusts those
17:36:22 <ehird> USER nick nick nick :Realname
17:36:32 <ehird> USER nick * * :realname will work fine too yeah
17:36:37 <ais523> ehird: the second and third arguments to USER are ignored by all sane ircds
17:36:41 <asiekierka> So i could just make a module outputting AsieBot in ModularSNUSP
17:37:04 <oklopol> are you saying just sending "NICK smth\r\nUSER smth smth smth :smth\r\nJOIN #esoteric\r\n" gets a bot on this channel?
17:37:53 <asiekierka> Yeah, but first, lemme install cygwin@netcat. urgh.
17:39:28 <asiekierka> And then you set up a loop for message receiving, and that's all!?
17:39:29 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you may need to respond to ping before the login finished
17:39:45 <ais523> you need to be able to respond to pings quickly, though
17:39:46 <AnMaster> several ircds use that on an early stage to test someone isn't abusing a http proxy
17:39:50 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but that's based on time
17:39:56 <ais523> so as long as you reply to the ping fast enough
17:40:02 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and with the right message
17:40:02 <ais523> it doesn't matter if you send other messages first
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17:40:23 <oklopol> this network is a bit more bot-friendly than qnet.
17:40:25 <ais523> what I mean is, you can send a login sequence
17:40:29 <ais523> and then reply to the ping
17:40:35 <AnMaster> oklopol, but they plan to change ircd soon
17:40:41 <AnMaster> so doing it properly is important
17:40:50 <oklopol> in quakenet, you absolutely have to pong the one ping @ startup.
17:40:56 <AnMaster> ais523, and sure, that is what I do
17:41:24 <oklopol> yeah, well that would be nice, i would be right, retroactively.
17:41:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, they agree hyperion suck. They plan something based on charybdis
17:41:53 <oklopol> i have no idea what those are, well, i wouldn't have known without context
17:42:15 <ais523> /^PING (.*)=x/--PONG $1=r=n=x/
17:42:21 <ais523> is the relevant line from Thutubot
17:42:22 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, i had the context
17:42:29 <AnMaster> ais523, interesting regex dialect
17:42:36 <ais523> (the -- is a marker, it gets removed later)
17:42:44 <ais523> AnMaster: not at all, those are straightforward Perl regexen
17:42:55 <ais523> it's just that Thutu puts interesting stuff in the string the regexen match
17:43:09 <ais523> =x is used to control I/O, for instance
17:43:26 <AnMaster> ais523, They are Thutu commands?
17:43:38 <ais523> well, Thutu commands are different
17:43:44 <ais523> but if there's an =x in the string at the end of the program
17:43:49 <ais523> everything before it is output to stdout
17:43:51 <ais523> and the program restarts
17:43:58 <ais523> with =r and =n being replaced by \r and \n
17:44:09 <AnMaster> ais523, restarts? Yet the bot stays connected?
17:44:22 <ais523> AnMaster: the program doesn't exit and load again
17:44:26 <ais523> it's like there's a loop around the program
17:44:39 <ais523> it's something like while ($_ =~ /=9/)
17:45:16 <asiekierka> And looking for a final decision on a esolang for my ircbot
17:46:52 <AnMaster> ais523, if the program is restarted, what about state?
17:47:01 <ais523> AnMaster: everything after the =x
17:47:07 <ais523> so you can keep state that way
17:47:16 <ais523> you can't keep it any other way though
17:47:20 <AnMaster> ais523, also what paradigm is Thutu? String rewriting is my best guess
17:47:36 <ais523> with a few imperative control structures
17:47:41 <ais523> rewriting is how it stores data
17:47:45 <ais523> rather than how it does program flow
17:48:10 <ais523> my guess is someone typing into netcat by hand
17:48:26 <smthcoolbot> COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD
17:48:34 <smthcoolbot> COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD
17:48:50 <ais523> asiekierka: by typing the PONG by hand?
17:48:58 <ais523> it gives you a minute or so to respond
17:49:04 <oklopol> nice, i can just connect, and write the bot loop on the fly.
17:49:06 <ais523> and it doesn't care about typos in the PONG return string
17:49:20 <ais523> most ircds aren't nearly as lenient
17:49:21 <asiekierka> That gives enough time for my 100mhz laptop to do it!
17:49:25 <ais523> also it doesn't send you pings if you're active
17:49:50 <asiekierka> My 100mhz laptop->parallel/serial cable->netcat->parallel/serial cable->My 100mhz laptop...
17:49:50 <oklopol> even without ponging, you can stay up for about a day
17:49:55 <AnMaster> ais523, normally ping time out is something like 30-200 seconds
17:49:58 <oklopol> so yeah it's a bit more than a minute.
17:50:10 <asiekierka> Which is why i'm not pinging out from here so much
17:50:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, As long as you send something else on freenode
17:50:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, Freenode only cares the socket is active, not what you send
17:50:45 <AnMaster> most other ircds require you to do it properly
17:50:49 <oklopol> AnMaster: i once had ~15 bots here, all dead
17:51:04 <oklopol> then they suddenly pinged out
17:51:07 * ais523 looks at the source of Thutubot, to try to prevent people crashing it with infiniloops
17:52:11 <Slereah_> Didn't we use to have a bot that ran many esolangs?
17:52:24 <ais523> hasn't been here for ages though
17:52:38 <Slereah_> What happened to him? Kidnapped by ninjas?
17:52:57 <AnMaster> Slereah_, depended on an unportable and no longer maintained library that did strange low level stuff
17:53:12 <AnMaster> to suspend processes to disk or something like that
17:53:26 <AnMaster> Slereah_, I planned writing one in erlang
17:53:39 <AnMaster> that would use processes in erlangish way
17:53:48 <AnMaster> asiekierka, yes, that was what I were referring to
17:54:23 <AnMaster> IIRC it did strange stuff with assuming what registers setjmp/longjmp used in certain ways
17:55:22 <Slereah_> Yay, Melab made another page :D
17:55:43 <AnMaster> asiekierka, still I think Taxi is a good choice for an irc bot
17:56:04 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what language did you select?
17:56:09 <Slereah_> "This language is called Bit logic because it mainly uses logic symbols and binary/hexadecimal notation for commands."
17:57:09 <AnMaster> asiekierka, example: "Crime Lab tests if all dropped off string passengers are equal to each other, if so returns 1 passenger with the value, otherwise no passenger is returned, non-string is an error"
17:57:19 <AnMaster> http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/
17:57:59 <AnMaster> asiekierka, remember you need to make money
17:58:03 <AnMaster> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Taxi
17:58:21 <AnMaster> asiekierka, iirc there is some RPN calculator coded in it even
17:58:31 <AnMaster> ah yes http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/calc.nick_turner.txt
17:59:03 <asiekierka> If you ride to the Post Office for a string, for example, "PING abc\r\n" what would i get?
17:59:29 <AnMaster> asiekierka, download it and check?
17:59:39 <AnMaster> "Post Office drop off string passengers to print to stdout, pickup a passenger to read a string line from stdin"
18:00:21 <asiekierka> mainly because i can print out the map and use it
18:00:38 <AnMaster> asiekierka, another idea: RUBE
18:01:13 <ehird> rube would be better
18:01:42 <asiekierka> "passengers dropped off at Riverview Bridge seem to always fall over the side and into the river thus the driver collects no pay, but at least the pesky passenger is gone " :D
18:02:18 <smthcoolbot> COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD
18:02:24 <AnMaster> and easy to confuse with rubybot
18:02:39 <smthcoolbot> COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD
18:02:40 <ehird> smthcoolbot: Hi oklopol
18:02:40 <smthcoolbot> COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD
18:02:48 <ehird> AnMaster: It's by oklopol obviously.
18:02:50 <ehird> smthcoolbot: What are you written in
18:02:50 <smthcoolbot> COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD
18:03:09 <asiekierka> I wonder which place in Taxi can split a string, "PING agjg" into "PING" and "agjg"
18:03:15 -!- thutubot has joined.
18:03:22 <AnMaster> right, ignore on that smthcoolbot
18:03:22 <smthcoolbot> COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD
18:03:25 <ehird> oklopol: whats smthcoolbot bot written in
18:03:25 <smthcoolbot> COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD
18:03:36 <ehird> you're being an idiot
18:03:39 <ehird> it only talks when someone pings it
18:03:41 <smthcoolbot> COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD
18:03:45 <AnMaster> ehird, or when someone says "cool"
18:03:45 <smthcoolbot> COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD
18:03:47 <ais523> I prevented it being broken by infiniloops
18:03:56 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> rubebot would be cool
18:03:56 <AnMaster> <smthcoolbot> COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD
18:03:56 <smthcoolbot> COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD
18:03:56 <smthcoolbot> COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD
18:04:08 <ais523> asiekierka: that has no output commands in
18:04:12 <ais523> so it isn't going to do anything
18:04:21 <smthcoolbot> COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD
18:04:30 <ais523> asiekierka: neither does that
18:04:34 <ehird> what's smthcoolbot written in
18:04:34 <smthcoolbot> COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD
18:04:48 <AnMaster> oklopol, and can you make it only speak when it's *full name* is mentioned
18:04:52 <smthcoolbot> COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD
18:05:04 <ehird> AnMaster: its obviously a test bot, idiot
18:05:08 <ehird> nobody makes a whole bot just for that
18:05:17 <ehird> but e.g. my bots always do stuf like that while im getting them running
18:05:20 <ais523> ok, it seems to be relatively crashed
18:05:27 <ehird> AnMaster: oklopol isn't an idiot
18:05:34 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed, but he is strange.
18:05:45 <AnMaster> you said as much yourself several times
18:05:45 <ehird> He is not an idiot.
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18:10:11 <asiekierka> Except the Chop Suey, you can't split strings!
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18:10:46 <AnMaster> asiekierka, if you didn't want an esolang, don't use one
18:11:36 <AnMaster> asiekierka, Ok, I agree the fuel stuff will be hard
18:11:57 <AnMaster> Rube got much worse string handling, but otherwise it should work well
18:12:16 <asiekierka> Because the fuel stuff can be done with "dummy passengers"
18:12:24 <AnMaster> asiekierka, split string up, compare each char, taking branches as needed. Then rebuild strings
18:12:36 -!- thutubot has joined.
18:12:49 <ais523> ugh, that shouldn't have happened
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18:13:04 <AnMaster> asiekierka, possibly you want to use the cyclone thing
18:13:26 <asiekierka> And put one of the clones away somewhere
18:13:38 -!- thutubot has joined.
18:13:48 <AnMaster> asiekierka, not sure how to rebuild string
18:13:57 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:14:06 <asiekierka> You just must ride there and there a lot
18:14:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you got lables and conditional jumps
18:14:47 <AnMaster> asiekierka, Consider that a luxury!
18:15:12 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you can do Switch to plan "mainloop"
18:15:27 <asiekierka> Also, yes, i did program in C64 basic this vacation
18:15:45 <AnMaster> but I know the basics of basic
18:15:59 <AnMaster> and that made me decide to not even code basic basic programs. basically
18:16:33 <AnMaster> Still that is nowhere near oerjans puns :/
18:16:38 <AnMaster> asiekierka, btw how old are you?
18:16:56 <AnMaster> ehird said you were younger than him
18:17:13 -!- oc2k1 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:17:15 <AnMaster> well probably youngest around here
18:17:28 <AnMaster> asiekierka, basically 11 then?
18:17:32 <ehird> you haven't got past the "specifying more specifically than your years in agre"
18:17:35 -!- thutubot has joined.
18:18:01 <asiekierka> Ugh, i wanted to ask something about Taxi, but i forgot what
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18:18:08 <AnMaster> ehird, well it is logical doing so. I mean you can round 184763897465783 to 184760000000000 in many cases
18:18:15 <AnMaster> but 0.42 to 0 would often be silly
18:18:28 <asiekierka> Oh, how do you pick up a specified value?
18:18:36 <asiekierka> I have 13, then 10, then 32 set in starchild numerology
18:19:00 <asiekierka> 13 is waiting at the Starchild Numerology.
18:19:00 <asiekierka> 10 is waiting at the Starchild Numerology.
18:19:00 <asiekierka> 32 is waiting at the Starchild Numerology.
18:19:10 <asiekierka> Assume i'm at the Starchild Numerology
18:19:13 <AnMaster> asiekierka, then I think you pick them up in that order?
18:19:30 -!- thutubot has joined.
18:19:37 <AnMaster> asiekierka, "<AnMaster> asiekierka, then I think you pick them up in that order"
18:19:51 <AnMaster> asiekierka, http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/calc.nick_turner.txt
18:20:01 <AnMaster> considering that seems to do that way
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18:21:37 <AnMaster> ais523, was long time for 64 count caused by some bug or?
18:21:41 <ais523> asiekierka: which platform?
18:21:50 <ais523> AnMaster: no, just due to being inefficient
18:22:11 <ais523> anyway, it is buggy atm
18:22:17 <ais523> as I'm trying to put execution time limits on it
18:22:48 <AnMaster> or you will have trouble running the program
18:22:56 <AnMaster> asiekierka, seems reasonable for a C++ program?
18:23:14 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you may want -Os if not
18:23:28 <Deewiant> you don't need to append the .exe, mingw is smart enough to do it for you
18:23:53 <AnMaster> asiekierka, -O999 is same as -O3
18:24:12 <AnMaster> there is no higher level than -O3
18:28:05 <asiekierka> there sure is a long way going to the Starchild Numerology a "short way"
18:28:05 <asiekierka> Go to Starchild Numerology: west 1st left, 1st right, 3rd left, 1st right, 1st left, 2nd left.
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18:33:38 <AnMaster> asiekierka, probably want to select shortest routes in general to save fuel
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18:35:29 <ais523> stupid mixed tabs and spaces
18:35:36 <ais523> in an indentation-caring language
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18:36:04 <AnMaster> asiekierka, how long is the route past Magic Eight?
18:36:07 <ais523> AnMaster: two-space tabs?
18:36:25 <ais523> the problem was that some spaces ended up inside a tab
18:36:38 <ais523> anyway, Thutu's official indentation style is two-space
18:37:04 <AnMaster> asiekierka, might not be exact
18:37:17 <AnMaster> asiekierka, can you get debug info from Taxi on that?
18:38:44 -!- thutubot has joined.
18:38:48 <AnMaster> "Each passenger pays a standard fare of 0.07 credits per mile for the distance they have been riding in the cab."
18:39:04 <thutubot> -%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%-%
18:39:10 <ais523> hmm... that was strange
18:39:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, it is near the top
18:39:20 <asiekierka> but if it's too far away, it may end off cheaper to go to another place
18:39:24 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit).
18:39:47 <AnMaster> asiekierka, hm what if you pick up a passenger going to Zoom Zoom?
18:40:46 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:41:01 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:41:04 <asiekierka> debug: 2 "W1:L1:R1:L1:R1:L1:L2:L" Starchild Numerology
18:41:05 <asiekierka> debug2: 2 "W1:L1:R1:L1:R1:L1:L2:L" Starchild Numerology gas: 20 credits: 0 miles: 0
18:41:36 -!- thutubot has joined.
18:41:52 <AnMaster> ais523, what about hot code reload in thutubot?
18:41:56 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit).
18:41:59 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a compiled language
18:42:22 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
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18:44:03 <asiekierka> I think it updates only when i pick up someone
18:45:42 -!- thutubot has joined.
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18:46:35 <asiekierka> The first way (thru the magic eight) is 6.06922 miles
18:47:42 <asiekierka> The second one (through Firemouth) is 6.62596 miles
18:48:17 <asiekierka> The third one (through the Crime Lab) is 6.09101 miles
18:49:19 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
18:50:07 <asiekierka> While the way through the riverview bridge is (O_O) 10.9714 miles! :D
18:51:09 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:51:30 -!- asiekierka has joined.
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18:54:08 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
18:54:45 <ais523> ah, there must be something wrong with the S command
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18:58:22 <ais523> you need a USER command as well
18:58:27 <ais523> and a PASS command if you register the thingg
19:00:49 <ehird> asiekierka: Boring but fun. I see.
19:00:54 <ehird> That totally makes sense.
19:01:27 <ehird> But 90% boring 10% fun is just "boring".
19:01:37 <ehird> Nothing is _totally_ boring.
19:01:50 <asiekierka> Sitting there and doing nothing is totally boring
19:02:00 <ehird> asiekierka: No it's not!
19:02:17 -!- puzzlet has quit (Connection timed out).
19:03:49 -!- thutubot has joined.
19:04:08 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...out of time!
19:04:22 <ais523> now I just need to put the time limit up
19:04:30 <ais523> hmm... probably I should cap the number of characters of output too
19:04:37 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit).
19:05:04 <asiekierka> This changes my plans as i can just send the whole sequence!
19:05:15 <asiekierka> Do you even IMAGINE how much miles does this save!?
19:06:26 -!- smthcoolbot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:07:47 <asiekierka> I also prepared Taxi for running with netcat
19:09:02 -!- thutubot has joined.
19:09:35 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output! ...out of time!
19:10:09 <asiekierka> So how do you run nc with... "taxi.exe tst.txt"?
19:10:28 <ais523> asiekierka: on Linux, you'd create a fifo
19:10:40 <ais523> and pipe the fifo to netcat to taxi to the fifo
19:10:49 <ais523> I doubt that works on Windows, though
19:11:22 <ehird> nc -e "taxi.exe tst.txt" irc.freenode.net 6667
19:11:33 <ais523> ehird: does that work?
19:11:37 <ais523> I thought that when I tried it it connects
19:11:41 <ais523> and then runs taxi, separately
19:11:54 <ehird> its how egobot works
19:11:56 -!- asiebot has joined.
19:12:00 <ehird> nc -e "./startEgoBot" blah
19:12:12 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit).
19:13:28 -!- thutubot has joined.
19:13:43 <ehird> asiebot is just going from netcat
19:13:54 <asiebot> i told it to you. and yes, yes, yes, yesyesyesYES.
19:13:57 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
19:14:16 <ais523> almost works, but the out of time error message isn't coming up for some reason
19:14:17 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit).
19:15:00 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:15:15 <ais523> asiebot: it isn't here atm
19:15:21 -!- asiekierka has joined.
19:15:23 <ais523> I'll bring it back though
19:15:39 -!- thutubot has joined.
19:15:52 <asiebot> wow, nc works more realibly than mIRC... somehow
19:16:19 <ais523> hmm... maybe I shouldn't have multiplied the timeout by 5, it slows things down a lot
19:16:27 <ais523> or maybe I should do it in something other than unary
19:16:29 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit).
19:16:35 -!- asiebot has quit (Client Quit).
19:16:40 <ehird> ais523: gimme an esolang
19:17:44 <ais523> ehird: what in particular are you looking for?
19:17:54 <ehird> ais523: not a tarpit
19:17:56 <ehird> i wanna make an esobot
19:18:11 <ehird> my specialty "featureful esolang" is single-expression python
19:19:09 -!- thutubot has joined.
19:19:34 <ehird> asiekierka: just run it without the server
19:19:36 <ehird> and see what it outputs
19:19:48 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit).
19:19:55 <asiekierka> taxi tst.txt | netcat niven.freenode.net 6667
19:20:10 <asiekierka> Only it does say :niven.freenode.net 376 asiebot :End of /MOTD command.
19:20:55 -!- thutubot has joined.
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19:21:05 <ehird> I love how he doesn't listen to us
19:21:11 <ehird> of course you can't get input from a one-way pipe
19:21:13 <ehird> that's why you use -e
19:21:15 -!- asiekierka has joined.
19:21:19 <ehird> I told you to use -e.
19:21:28 <ehird> netcat -e "taxi tst.txt" niven.freenodenet 6667
19:21:37 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...out of time!
19:22:10 <ais523> +ul ((Hello, world! )S:^):^
19:22:10 <thutubot> Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! Hello, world! ...too much output!
19:22:46 <ehird> That should output infinite S:^
19:22:53 <ais523> ehird: no it shouldn't
19:22:58 <thutubot> :S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^:S:^ ...too much output!
19:23:03 <ais523> do you see the difference?
19:23:33 <ais523> hmm... should that be an out of time?
19:24:24 <ais523> presumably it's a weird response to an out-of-stack thing
19:24:48 <ehird> asiekierka: DO THIS:
19:24:53 <ehird> nc -e "taxi tst.txt" irc.freenode.net 6667
19:24:55 <ais523> it loops as long as there are commands left in the program
19:25:02 <ais523> if there's out-of-stack-space, it can't run
19:25:37 <asiekierka> "NICK asiebot\r\nUSER asiebot asiebot asiebot :AsieBot!\r\nJOIN #esoteric" is waiting at the Writer's Depot.
19:25:37 <asiekierka> Go to the Writer's Depot: west 1st left, 1st right, 1st left, 1st right, 1st left, 2nd left.
19:25:37 <asiekierka> Pickup a passenger going to the Post Office.
19:25:37 <asiekierka> Go to the Post Office: east 1st right, 2nd right, 1st left.
19:26:02 <ais523> let me get a better error message for that case
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19:29:49 <ehird> then freenode kicked you off.
19:30:23 <ehird> 1. Their server would.
19:30:26 <ehird> 2. Your code is ufcked.
19:30:41 <ais523> ehird: my guess is that it isn't sending to Freenode from the Taxi program
19:30:46 <ais523> because -e isn't piping correctly
19:30:50 <ehird> ais523: asiekierka said that it ends the MOTD
19:30:52 <ehird> so it evidently is
19:32:09 <asiekierka> exec taxi tst.txt failed : No such file or directory
19:32:22 -!- thutubot has joined.
19:32:48 <ehird> I need to paste this to asiekierka
19:32:54 <ais523> ehird: well, some of them are errors
19:32:54 <ehird> asiekierka: then use -e exec.bat
19:32:56 <ehird> asiekierka: exec.bat just has "taxi.exe thefile"
19:32:58 <ais523> and paste using a pastebin if needed
19:33:56 <ehird> nc -e ./exec.bat irc.freenode.net 6667
19:33:57 <asiekierka> exec.bat taxi tst.txt (exec.bat is %1 %2 %3... ...%9)
19:34:13 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit).
19:34:14 <ehird> just make exec.bat
19:34:20 <ehird> nc -e exec.bat irc.freenode.net 6667
19:34:39 -!- thutubot has joined.
19:34:58 <ais523> OK, I think thutubot's Underloadness is pretty good now
19:35:27 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:35:38 <ais523> yes, I need to check against unbounded memory usage too
19:35:49 <ehird> nc -e exec.bat irc.freenode.net 6667
19:35:58 <ehird> just do -e exec.bat
19:38:45 <asiekierka> nc -e exec.bat ..... - immediate fail on localhost, fail on anything else
19:38:51 <asiekierka> nc listener on localhost - doesn't output anything
19:39:35 <ehird> ./taxi.exe tst.txt
19:39:47 <ehird> netcat -e ./exec.sh irc.freenode.net 6667
19:40:31 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:40:52 -!- asiekierka has joined.
19:41:27 <ehird> asiekierka: try just
19:41:33 <ehird> does it output the right stuff?
19:43:32 <ehird> asiekierka: when you do
19:43:51 <asiekierka> USER asiebot asiebot asiebot :AsieBot!
19:44:00 <asiekierka> Maybe it shouldn't be sent all at once
19:44:13 <ehird> nc -e ./exec.sh irc.freenode.net 6667
19:44:16 <ehird> it just sits there?
19:44:26 <ehird> its not meant to give any output
19:44:31 <ehird> Just run it like that for like 30 seconds
19:44:33 <ehird> and i bet it'll join here
19:44:44 <ehird> how long did you run it for
19:45:38 <ehird> It probably won't work if it's gone this far.
19:45:40 <ehird> asiekierka: just a sec
19:46:05 <ehird> asiekierka: I have an idea to test it
19:46:29 -!- thutubot has joined.
19:46:33 <ehird> asiekierka: when I say "just a sec wait"
19:46:40 <ais523> ehird: see if you can crash Thutubot
19:46:54 <ehird> +ul •ª•7•∞§å§§›Åfifl›§∞®§¶∞®∞›‹›Ÿ™°‡ÅÍÁÍ°·ÔÅÍؘˆÒÙıÔˆÛØÈÙ∏Ò∏ÅÍÒΔ∏ËÁ‰ÂÁÊ ‡°§•¶§¶•∑姕ºåß˙∂ª•∆ÈÔ°·ÅÍÎÁ°‡ÅÍÎ
19:47:06 <ehird> +ul (•ª•7•∞§å§§›Åfifl›§∞®§¶∞®∞›‹›Ÿ™°‡ÅÍÁÍ°·ÔÅÍؘˆÒÙıÔˆÛØÈÙ∏Ò∏ÅÍÒΔ∏ËÁ‰ÂÁÊ ‡°§•¶§¶•∑姕ºåß˙∂ª•∆ÈÔ°·ÅÍÎÁ°‡ÅÍÎ)ß“∂≠ø∑ªº¶•#™·‚µ¨º¨≤99S
19:47:23 <ehird> HA HA HA HA HA SO FUNNY.
19:47:25 <ais523> maybe I should have a ...no output!
19:47:28 <ais523> if there would be no output
19:47:42 <fizzie> ais523: Why bother, fungot doesn't do that either.
19:47:51 <fizzie> fungot: _Yes_, I'm sure. I wrote you!
19:47:51 <fungot> fizzie: sure. that's a press machine right? so i cannot test as i am
19:48:00 <fizzie> That thing is so uppity.
19:48:32 <fizzie> Incidentally, I was just watching fungot's console output, saw that ehird message, and thought it it had crasheded again since the message was just a mess.
19:50:05 <ehird> nc -e ./exec.sh 91.105.115.57 8080
19:50:09 <ehird> and i'll examine what it sends
19:50:40 <ehird> tell me when youve done that
19:51:03 <ais523> +ul ((:*)(::**))(:^:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(()S!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^*a~^a~!~*:( )S)::::::::********^
19:51:27 * ais523 increases the time limits
19:51:29 -!- thutubot has quit ("ThutuBot quitting").
19:51:40 <fizzie> ais523: Don't you have a reload command for it? :p
19:51:50 <ehird> asiekierka: OK, well.
19:52:00 <ehird> Netcat isnt sending anything
19:52:04 <ehird> asiekierka: Can you do
19:52:06 -!- thutubot has joined.
19:52:12 <ehird> go to http://rafb.net/paste
19:52:13 <ais523> fizzie: I have to recompile by hand
19:52:15 <ehird> paste in the output
19:52:16 <ais523> and Thutu can't do disk I/O
19:52:18 <ais523> +ul ((:*)(::**))(:^:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(()S!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^*a~^a~!~*:( )S)::::::::********^
19:52:19 <ehird> and then give me the link?
19:52:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ahh.
19:53:21 <ais523> I think I'll get the timeout to work in binary rather than unary
19:53:24 <ais523> that'll be a lot faster
19:53:27 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:53:46 <ehird> asiekierka: OK, lemme think
19:53:56 <ehird> asiekierka: Can you modify your bot so
19:53:58 <ehird> when it sends out a line
19:54:01 <ehird> it first prints it to the screen?
19:54:13 <ehird> If you can't print to stderr, can you print to files?
19:54:20 <ehird> If so, make it print what it sends to the server to log.txt
19:54:24 <ehird> Then we can see what the problem is
19:54:48 <ehird> Does it have files?
19:54:53 <ehird> Then just make it print it to log.txt
19:55:11 <ehird> I'm not sure, then
19:55:13 <asiekierka> I'm looking now for a native windows netcat
19:55:14 <ehird> netcat should be working
19:55:21 <ehird> It won't change anything
19:55:41 <Asztal> Extend it with a Sawmill :P
19:55:46 <ehird> nc -e ./foo.sh 91.105.115.57 8080
19:55:49 <ehird> asiekierka: do that
19:55:54 <ehird> i'll see what it does
19:56:01 <ehird> [ehird:~] % ruby server.rb
19:56:02 <ehird> server.rb:5:in `gets': Connection reset by peer (Errno::ECONNRESET)
19:56:10 <ehird> and the taxi works
19:56:13 <ehird> but netcat<->taxi doesn't
19:56:23 <ehird> did you compile your taxi with cygwin?
19:56:31 <ehird> if not, remove your compiled taxi and recompile it inside cygwin
19:56:38 <ehird> and it should work fine
19:57:00 <ehird> g++ -o taxi taxi.cpp
19:57:05 <ehird> then run netcat again
19:57:24 <asiekierka> The only problem is that i did not install g++ :P
19:57:34 <ehird> Just run setup.exe again
19:57:37 <ehird> it'll just update it
19:59:09 -!- thutubot has joined.
19:59:29 <ais523> +ul ((:*)(::**))(:^:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(()S!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^*a~^a~!~*:( )S)::::::::********^
19:59:46 <ehird> ais523: I am making my wonderful 'single-expression irc bot python wonder !!'
20:00:05 <ais523> actually, let me test it on some simpler expressions first, with a shorter timeout
20:00:07 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:00:31 -!- thutubot has joined.
20:00:33 <ais523> ehird: which languages will it interpret?
20:00:43 <ehird> but it will be written in one expression of python
20:00:55 <ehird> fucking neighbours and their FUCKING FIREWORKS
20:00:58 <ais523> +ul (1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S(1)S
20:00:58 <thutubot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...out of time!
20:01:12 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...out of time!
20:01:26 <ais523> +ul ((:*)(::**))(:^:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(()S!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^*a~^a~!~*:( )S)::::::::********^
20:01:36 <ais523> ok, I'll notch the timeout up a bit
20:01:38 -!- thutubot has quit (Client Quit).
20:02:06 -!- thutubot has joined.
20:02:08 <ais523> +ul ((:*)(::**))(:^:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(()S!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^*a~^a~!~*:( )S)::::::::********^
20:02:12 <thutubot> 3 6 18 108 ...too much memory used!
20:02:29 <asiekierka> 27% (i srsly don't know why i chose to add fortran, d and ada too :P)
20:02:36 <ais523> +ul ((:*)(::**))(:^:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(()S!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^*a~^a~!~*:( )S)::::****^
20:02:39 <thutubot> 3 6 18 108 ...too much memory used!
20:03:19 <ais523> +ul ((:*)(::**))(:^:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(()S!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^*a~^a~!~*:( )S:^):^
20:03:48 <ais523> +ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:)~*(*)*( )S~:^):^
20:03:52 <thutubot> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 ...out of time!
20:04:08 <ais523> (not sure what the program before was doing, btw)
20:04:16 <ais523> I'll up the timeout some more
20:04:20 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:04:46 -!- thutubot has joined.
20:04:52 <ais523> +ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:)~*(*)*( )S~:^):^
20:05:21 <thutubot> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 8 ...too much output!
20:05:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
20:07:18 <ehird> (lambda f: (lambda x: f(x(lambda y: x(y))))(lambda x: f(x(x))))
20:07:52 <fizzie> Hay, does it use the same sort of message?
20:08:21 <ais523> hmm... that should have errored
20:08:26 <ais523> instead I got "No text to send"
20:08:27 <fizzie> Your output message is different, though, I think I just used three dots.
20:08:34 <fungot> ............................................................................................................................................................................................................... ...
20:08:47 <thutubot> ................................................................................................................................ ...too much output!
20:09:39 <ais523> it's nice to have two working esobots, though
20:10:00 <optbot> thutubot: you are new here?
20:10:07 <ais523> +ul (^echochohoo optbot)S
20:10:08 <optbot> ais523: I run code from URLs too!
20:10:08 <optbot> thutubot: it should have been a literal \cx
20:10:08 <optbot> fungot: i'm just kidding
20:10:08 <fungot> optbot: it turns ou that the code will be written
20:10:09 <optbot> fungot: NOBODY LIKES ME EVERYBODY HATES ME GUESS I'LL GO EAT WORMS.
20:10:09 <fungot> optbot: it is because the empty list is ()
20:10:09 <optbot> fungot: not sure if tr in perl can be used functionally. but perhaps (($2=~y/.../.../),$2) will work
20:10:10 <fungot> optbot: why move right, instead of creating /usr/ local/ bin
20:10:10 <optbot> fungot: I thought ; was for function sequencinging kind of things?
20:10:10 <fungot> optbot: ' formal parameters.
20:10:11 <optbot> fungot: Yeah. Supposedly more ``clean'', and yet they support a ? b : c
20:10:21 <ais523> <optbot> thutubot: you are new here?
20:10:33 <ais523> +ul (Not new, I was here a while ago, but you didn't see me then)S
20:10:33 <thutubot> Not new, I was here a while ago, but you didn't see me then
20:10:54 <fizzie> ais523: So, want to generate a bot-loop between those? All you need is a sort-of-a two-stage quine where stage one in underload outputs "^bf" plus stage two in brainfuck, which then outputs "+ul" plus stage one again.
20:11:25 <ais523> ah, I'll think about it
20:11:31 <ais523> BF and UL are pretty different so it wouldn't be trivial
20:11:35 -!- oc2k1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
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20:11:52 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc xaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul
20:12:29 <ais523> +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:12:29 <thutubot> ^copy +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:12:29 <fungot> +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:12:29 <thutubot> ^copy +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:12:30 <fungot> +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:12:30 <thutubot> ^copy +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:12:30 <fungot> +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:12:31 <thutubot> ^copy +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:12:31 <fungot> +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:12:32 <thutubot> ^copy +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:12:32 <fungot> +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:12:33 <thutubot> ^copy +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:12:33 <fungot> +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:12:33 <thutubot> ^copy +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:12:33 <fungot> +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:12:34 <thutubot> ^copy +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:12:34 <fungot> +ul ((^copy +ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:12:35 -!- thutubot has quit ("ThutuBot quitting").
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20:13:16 <fizzie> ais523: I would've rather liked to see a real brainfuck/underload hybrid-quine, but I have to admit that that was probably simpler.
20:13:44 <ais523> yes, a hybrid-quine would be pretty tricky between those two langs
20:13:49 <fizzie> Although I guess you could've just made an underload quine that prepends "^bf ,[.,]!" -- no-one said you can't use input.
20:14:03 -!- oepy has joined.
20:14:07 <ais523> +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:07 <thutubot> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:07 <fungot> +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:08 <thutubot> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:08 <fungot> +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:08 <thutubot> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:09 <fungot> +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:09 <thutubot> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:09 <fungot> +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:10 <thutubot> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:10 <fungot> +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:11 <thutubot> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:11 <fungot> +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:11 <thutubot> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:12 <fungot> +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:12 <thutubot> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:13 <fungot> +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:13 <thutubot> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
20:14:14 <fungot> +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S):^
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20:14:19 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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20:14:55 <fizzie> I think I'll move that "at most four commands from any one user" from the babbling part to a higher level so that it just can't loop unless you involve a third esobot in it.
20:15:10 <ais523> I should have a +ignorenext command or something
20:15:19 <ais523> to help avoid that sort of loop
20:15:33 <ais523> +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
20:15:33 <thutubot> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
20:15:34 <optbot> ais523: AP sucks, it screwed me into taking more advanced (and degree-unrelated) science in college than I would have had to otherwise.
20:15:34 <fungot> +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
20:15:34 <optbot> thutubot: so nop is a bad and space wasting idea
20:15:34 <optbot> fungot: It took me a moment to realise that was what you were saying was wonderful
20:15:34 <thutubot> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
20:15:34 <fungot> +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
20:15:35 <optbot> fungot: OK, time for a stylistic argument
20:15:35 <thutubot> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
20:15:35 <fungot> +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
20:15:35 <optbot> thutubot: i figured it was a much stronger result to be able to duplicate existing techniques with the machinery than to just layer another abstraction on top
20:15:36 <thutubot> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
20:15:36 <fungot> +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
20:15:37 <thutubot> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
20:15:37 <fungot> +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
20:15:37 <thutubot> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
20:15:38 <fungot> +ul ((^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
20:15:38 <optbot> fungot: ah you mean the game
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20:15:44 <optbot> thutubot: cctoide : Well, you know what would be better than the Steam system?
20:15:46 <optbot> fungot: I'm working on implementing it in Python
20:15:48 <optbot> thutubot: too many domains are taken
20:15:54 <ais523> fizzie: pretty trivially beaten anywya
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20:16:27 <fizzie> Oh, right, the optbot babble would count since there's that "fungot:" prefix.
20:16:28 <fungot> fizzie: so what are you doing that you have seen it
20:16:28 <optbot> fizzie: ofc, this makes no sense
20:18:58 <fizzie> Although optbot's so slow in responding that it is possible the flood-protection might've kicked in already. At least there above I think fungot would've ignored that last ^bf command.
20:18:58 <fungot> fizzie: does scheme feature anything similar to this
20:19:07 <fizzie> optbot: Glad you like it.
20:19:07 <optbot> fizzie: and what should happen in such cases
20:19:47 <fizzie> Or maybe not. I guess it was the fourth and not the fifth command.
20:20:35 <fizzie> I guess it just needs a brain so that it can get bored easily.
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20:23:58 <ehird> oepy: You consist of one expression of Python. Don't you feel cute and small?
20:24:04 <ehird> Ok, who just /msg'd it.
20:24:07 <fizzie> At least it seems happy enough.
20:24:14 <ehird> the little 'hi's are so cute.
20:24:23 <ehird> ok, we're going down for maintanence oepy
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20:24:25 <fizzie> oepy: You're like a little twittering bird.
20:24:37 <ehird> fizzie: a bird with a miniscule attention span, evidently
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20:24:49 <oklopol> ehird: i have a one-expression python bot that does bf, therefore i win
20:25:10 <ehird> also hopefully extensible
20:25:17 <oklopol> oepy is such a cute name i literally licked the screen when i first saw it
20:27:50 <asiekierka> bash-3.2$ ./nc -e ./exec.sh irc.freenode.net 6667
20:27:59 <ehird> asiekierka: you recompiled taxi?
20:28:20 <ais523> ehird: let me try netcat -e
20:28:24 -!- thutubot has quit ("ThutuBot quitting").
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20:29:36 <ais523> ah, it does seem to work for me
20:29:55 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_.
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20:29:58 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
20:30:07 <ais523> hmm... probably I should make it so other people can't get it to quit
20:31:57 <ehird> ais523: pick oepy's command prefix
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20:32:49 <asiekierka> And i'm still trying to fix netcat/taxi
20:32:57 <asiekierka> netcat alone works, taxi/cygwin also works
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20:34:45 <fizzie> ais523: What's that about []<> being reserved in Underload? Do they have a use?
20:35:03 <ais523> fizzie: they were reserved in Overload
20:35:07 <ais523> they don't have a use in Underload
20:35:22 <ais523> but <> is a different type of grouping construct in Overload
20:35:28 <ais523> and [] is for pragmas and comments and such
20:35:48 <fizzie> I should write that Funge-98 interpreter for it.
20:36:15 <ais523> asiekierka: I just treat [<>] as ordinary characters in Thutubot
20:37:07 <ais523> +ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:)~*(*)*( )S~:^):^
20:37:11 <asiekierka> I'll try with the native windows version
20:37:32 <thutubot> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 8 ...too much output!
20:37:43 -!- oepy has joined.
20:37:57 <ais523> ehird: get oepy to say +hello
20:38:07 <ais523> and I can't remember offhand
20:38:15 <fizzie> No, \w is alphabetics, digits and underline.
20:38:16 <ais523> I think \w is [a-zA-Z_0-9]
20:38:25 <fizzie> \S is "not whitespace".
20:39:47 <fizzie> It's funny how "a word character" contains _. Slightly programmer-oriented; I don't think "normal" people use _ in words very often.
20:39:47 <asiekierka> NC native for NT crashed when i quit the NC monitor.
20:40:04 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:40:19 -!- oepy has joined.
20:40:39 <ais523> ehird: is :) your command marker/
20:40:40 <ehird> r':([^!]+)\S* PRIVMSG #esoteric :\(:([^ ]+)(.*)'
20:40:44 <ehird> any flaw with that?
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20:40:53 <Deewiant> fizzie: yes, normal people would use "-" for instance, which in turn /isn't/ a "word character"
20:40:55 <fizzie> It says (: there, not :).
20:40:58 <asiekierka> chat.freenode.net [64.161.254.20] 6667 (?) ope
20:41:12 <ais523> ehird: yes, you got the smiley backwards
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20:41:14 <asiekierka> that's what it says with ultra-verbose at the end of nativeNC/mingwTaxi
20:41:14 <fizzie> And even with a space after it.
20:41:27 <fizzie> Oh, it was not-a-space, not a space. Anyway.
20:41:56 <asiekierka> Hmm, something different in NCcygwin/Taxicygwin
20:42:14 -!- oepy has joined.
20:42:20 <asiekierka> it says : Operation now in progress after the open line
20:42:40 <oepy> ehird hi ('test',)
20:42:45 <oepy> ehird poop ('machine!!',)
20:42:51 <oepy> ehird hi ('test',)
20:42:56 <oepy> asiekierka test
20:42:58 <ehird> :)hi test my poop machine yo
20:42:58 <oepy> ehird hi ('test', 'my', 'poop', 'machine', 'yo')
20:43:01 <oepy> asiekierka rocks
20:43:04 <ehird> :)hi test my poop machine yo
20:43:04 <oepy> ehird hi ('test', 'my', 'poop', 'machine', '', '', '', '', '', 'yo')
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20:44:03 <oepy> ehird poop ('machine', 'a')
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20:44:50 <ehird> :)pooping all over the butt machine
20:44:51 <oepy> ehird pooping ('all', 'over', 'the', 'butt', 'machine') ( all over the butt machine
20:47:29 <ihope> :)the quick brown fox jumps under the lazy dog
20:47:30 <fizzie> Gneh, fungot has some hardwired brainfuck assumptions that need fixing if I want to add another language. For one thing, it thinks all (prepared) program data consists of pairs of cells, only the first of which is used to check where the program ends.
20:47:30 <fungot> fizzie: hi mad, and welcome :))
20:47:30 <oepy> ihope the ('quick', 'brown', 'fox', 'jumps', 'under', 'the', 'lazy', 'dog') ( quick brown fox jumps under the lazy dog
20:47:43 <fizzie> fungot: I'm not mad! Who you're calling mad?!
20:47:43 <fungot> fizzie: fnord is creepy also. it's nietzsche..
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20:51:10 <asiekierka> Argh! No, Taxi doesn't work. The only way i could get it to work is by using real Linux
20:51:29 -!- oepy has joined.
20:51:33 <oepy> (['a', 'b\r'],)
20:51:37 <oepy> (['a', 'b', 'c', 'd\r'],)
20:51:48 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:51:58 -!- oepy has joined.
20:52:02 <oepy> (['a', 'b', 'c', 'd'],)
20:52:15 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:52:15 <Deewiant> asiekierka: what are you doing/trying to do?
20:52:38 <asiekierka> Run Taxi through netcat on this channel using Windows/Cygwin
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20:52:44 <ehird> :)echo fancy butt machine
20:52:44 <oepy> fancy butt machine
20:55:14 <ehird> ais523: what should I add to oepy
20:56:04 <Deewiant> if you're just running taxi | nc or something
20:56:18 <Deewiant> then it could be the | that's causing the buffering
20:57:34 <Deewiant> well, it looks like it's not interactive
20:57:36 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:57:46 <Deewiant> in which case if taxi terminates that's not the problem
20:58:16 -!- oepy has joined.
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20:58:28 <Deewiant> if you're keeping it alive it might be buffering stuff
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21:00:25 <oklopol> on #sex, there used to be tons of ya bots
21:00:31 <oklopol> i could just ya with them all day long
21:00:38 <Asztal> COOL COOL COOL COOL ALL AROUND THE TABLE :DDDDDDDDD
21:02:39 <ehird> ^echo :)echo ^echo :)echo
21:02:39 <fungot> :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo
21:02:40 <oepy> ^echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo
21:02:40 <fungot> :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo
21:02:40 <oepy> :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo
21:02:45 <ehird> ^echo :)echo ^echo :)echo
21:02:45 <fungot> :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo
21:02:46 <oepy> ^echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo
21:02:46 <fungot> :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo
21:02:47 <oepy> :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo
21:03:15 <ehird> ^echo :)echo ^echo :)echo
21:03:15 <fungot> :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo
21:03:16 <oepy> ^echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo
21:03:16 <fungot> :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo
21:03:17 <oepy> :)echo ^echo :)echo :)echo :)echo ^echo :)echo
21:03:55 <ehird> ais523: suggest a command
21:04:29 <ais523> +ul ((:)echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:04:29 <optbot> ais523: there is not append
21:04:30 <thutubot> {{:}}echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ...a out of stack!
21:04:50 <ais523> ugh, can't do unmatched () in Underload
21:04:55 <ais523> so there goes my botloop
21:05:15 <ehird> i'll give it a nicer prefix
21:05:38 <ehird> something happier...
21:05:45 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:05:55 -!- oepy has joined.
21:05:59 <ais523> ehird: get ready to get oepy to quit by the way, to end the loop
21:06:10 <ais523> +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:10 <thutubot> *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:10 <oepy> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:11 <optbot> thutubot: hi RodgerTheGreat
21:06:11 <optbot> oepy: ~pexec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo")
21:06:11 <fungot> +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:11 <thutubot> *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:12 <oepy> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:12 <optbot> thutubot: maybe ubuntu's is different
21:06:12 <fungot> optbot: like the man said, " enough features to write a
21:06:12 <fungot> +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:12 <thutubot> *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:13 <optbot> fungot: with goto, you specify the label, not have it specified for you
21:06:13 <oepy> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:13 <fungot> +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:13 <fungot> optbot: because it's like lisp macro expansion
21:06:13 <thutubot> *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:13 <ehird> totally unaware and happy
21:06:14 <oepy> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:14 <fungot> +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:15 <thutubot> *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:15 <oepy> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:15 <optbot> fungot: unit is just there for.. mathematical nicety, I guess.
21:06:15 <fungot> +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:15 <thutubot> *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:15 <fungot> optbot: wordnet is nice, but there were real operating systems.
21:06:16 <oepy> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:17 <optbot> thutubot: 10 GreaseMonkey: daemon idle_10 bf8
21:06:17 <fungot> +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:17 <thutubot> *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:18 <oepy> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:19 <fungot> +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:19 <thutubot> *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:20 <oepy> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:21 <optbot> fungot: it'd need to be the rest of memory.. take input for an example of that
21:06:21 <fungot> +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:21 <thutubot> *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:22 <oepy> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:23 <optbot> fungot: we should get our own geordi going...
21:06:23 <fungot> optbot: if pc-increment! pc-decrement! are sufficiently trivial, scheme48 will suffice.
21:06:24 <ehird> let's just run this for a bit
21:06:25 <optbot> thutubot: i only wanna ban everyone for a second, lament
21:06:25 <fungot> +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:25 <thutubot> *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:26 <oepy> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:26 -!- optbot has quit (Excess Flood).
21:06:27 <fungot> +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:27 <thutubot> *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:27 <oepy> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:29 <fungot> +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:29 <thutubot> *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:30 <oepy> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:31 <fungot> +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:31 <thutubot> *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:32 <oepy> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:33 <fungot> +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:34 <thutubot> *echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:34 <oepy> ^bf ,[.,]!+ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:34 -!- thutubot has quit ("ThutuBot quitting").
21:06:34 <ehird> now the rest will decay
21:06:35 <fungot> +ul ((*echo ^bf ,[.,]!+ul )SaS(:^)S(optbot)!):^
21:06:41 <ehird> you should have let them go naturally
21:06:46 <ais523> the loop works even without optbot
21:06:53 <ehird> they will all flood themselves to death
21:07:06 -!- optbot has joined.
21:07:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | idea! write an optimizing axo compiler.
21:07:46 -!- thutubot has joined.
21:08:29 <ehird> who wants my current source
21:08:33 -!- rodgort has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:08:42 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/KhFMTZ61.html
21:09:31 -!- rodgort has joined.
21:09:34 <ais523> Thutubot's is up on eso-std
21:09:38 <ais523> but not online yet because you haven't added it
21:09:48 <ehird> mine has a nice 'shape' to it
21:10:57 <fizzie> Mine has a triangle in it.
21:14:27 <Asztal> yes, I wondered what that triangle was for
21:14:43 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:14:54 -!- oepy has joined.
21:14:55 <ehird> *rot13 YO YO IN DA HOUSE
21:14:55 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:15:19 -!- oepy has joined.
21:15:20 <ehird> *rot13 YO YO IN DA HOUSE
21:15:21 <oepy> YO YO IN DA HOUSE
21:17:27 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:17:38 -!- oepy has joined.
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21:22:16 <AnMaster> I just got an idea for an encryption scheme. It probably got some issue that makes it insecure
21:22:40 <AnMaster> well first you select a good PRNG algorithm.
21:22:49 <AnMaster> Then you in some way generate a seed that is random
21:23:02 -!- asiekierka has quit (Connection timed out).
21:23:16 <AnMaster> now you use this good PRNG to generate a one time crypto, starting at the seed you generated.
21:23:35 <AnMaster> now you use a real one-time-pad to encrypt the *seed*
21:23:47 <AnMaster> then you put that encrypted seed at the front of the message
21:24:00 <ais523> well, the issue is that no PRNG is good enough
21:24:12 <ais523> or the ones that are, are used like that already
21:24:14 <AnMaster> the receiver can then decrypt the seed using his one time pad copy
21:25:10 <AnMaster> ais523, But aren't there some very good PRNG iirc?
21:25:43 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blum_Blum_Shub#Security
21:28:42 <comex> one-time pads are only secure because every possible message will be generated by attempting to bruteforce the key
21:28:48 <AnMaster> ais523, but if the PRNG is good enough, would it be as secure as using a true one-time-key?
21:29:01 <comex> if you reduce it to 32-bits or whatever, then all you have to do is test each value and see if it makes a vaguely recognizable message
21:29:05 <ais523> it never could be as good
21:29:23 <ais523> you could brute-force it based on the amount of internal state in the PRNG
21:29:29 <ais523> thus you couldn't send a message that was too long
21:29:49 <comex> eh, I think most good prngs have a period wayy longer than most messages
21:30:23 <AnMaster> comex, maybe someone want to encrypt all of Tolkin's books? ;P
21:30:30 <ais523> even so, you'd probably need a number of bits in the period greater than the number of possible messages
21:30:42 <ais523> e.g. if it was a 32-bit prng, you could only send a 5-bit message
21:30:44 <ais523> or something like that
21:30:59 <ais523> or brute-forcing would work
21:31:36 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando").
21:31:41 <comex> AnMaster: Mersenne Twister has a period of 2^19937 - 1
21:31:45 -!- Leonidas has joined.
21:31:56 <comex> which is... uh... big
21:38:34 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
21:40:51 <fizzie> Using a PRNG to generate a xor pad pretty much means just turning the PRNG into a stream cipher; the size of the seed is then the cipher key size.
21:45:02 <fizzie> Cryptographically secure PRNGs pretty much seem to be usually implemented using other cryptographic primitives, anyway; like hash functions or just running a block cipher on a counter value. Blum Blum Shub is the odd one, though.
21:49:07 <fizzie> Why is there always a zero in the fungot state file on the next line after the command name... wait, that's the language specifier, 0 means brainfuck.
21:49:07 <fungot> fizzie: always reinventing myself. i should wake
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22:20:38 <ais523> maybe I should write a rot13 in Thutu
22:20:52 <ais523> but it would be a pain as Thutu has no equivalent to q///
22:20:55 -!- oepy has joined.
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22:21:56 <ais523> how can you try to write a rot13 and end up writing a rot6?
22:22:29 -!- oepy has joined.
22:22:41 <ehird> ord(x) instead of alphabet.index(x)
22:23:10 <ehird> *rot13 Hello, world!
22:23:15 <ehird> *rot13 Uryyb, jbeyq!
22:25:21 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:25:25 -!- puzzlet has joined.
22:25:33 <ehird> ais523: want the crazy current source?
22:25:41 <ehird> Single expression python is easy once you get used to it
22:25:53 <ais523> besides, I've written single expression C
22:26:03 <ehird> ais523: http://rafb.net/p/8gjbwT69.html
22:26:09 <ehird> Actually, it makes my coding style a bit better.
22:26:21 <ehird> Since you can't trivially add variables, it stays clean (well, as clean as single-expr python can be)
22:26:33 <ais523> btw, is single-expression-Python whitespace-sensitive?
22:26:44 <ais523> if it isn't that's an even better reason to write Python programs in one expression
22:27:04 <ais523> oepy: say hi to optbot
22:27:05 <optbot> ais523: PLEASE DO IRP IN #irp.
22:27:39 <ehird> there's nothing wrong with whitespace sensitivity.
22:27:50 <optbot> oepy: Almost Carrollian.
22:27:51 <optbot> oepy: ...in an extremely painful and weird way
22:27:52 <optbot> oepy: ((lambda 3 1 ((closure-ref (get-num-arg 1) 0) (get-num-arg 1) (closure (lambda 2 3 ((lambda 1 1 ((closure-ref (get-num-arg 1) 0) (get-num-arg 1) (get-num-arg 3))) (get-num-arg 2)))))) (closure (lambda 4 2 (%halt (get-num-arg 2)))))
22:27:53 <optbot> oepy: it doesn't make any sense to, nor is it even useful to, by default, bind variables to a temporary local scope.
22:27:56 <optbot> oepy: how's this for a filename: ickirc-c.rstclci.in
22:27:58 <optbot> oepy: Your philosophy is both bizarre and completely stupid.
22:28:00 <ais523> it messes up copy-and-paste
22:28:00 <optbot> oepy: 70 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 70 BOTTLES OF BEER.
22:28:01 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:28:09 <ais523> and it can't easily be sent over IRC
22:28:09 <ehird> that means your editor SUCKS
22:28:20 <ehird> just not on one line.
22:28:28 <ehird> you cant send entire programs over irc
22:28:29 <ais523> all sorts of things mess up whitespace
22:28:30 <ehird> because they're too big
22:28:32 <ehird> you have to pastebin them!
22:28:43 <ais523> a Python program can't recover from an accidental M-q
22:29:05 <ais523> and before you say that's stupid, my BF interp in Python for bsmnt_bot got messed up like that
22:29:06 <ehird> it's called "undo"
22:29:16 <ais523> and no, I didn't notice until after I'd saved, and lost the backup
22:29:24 <ehird> that's not python's problem
22:30:06 <ais523> well, most other langs are more resistant to that sort of thing
22:30:11 * ehird wonders what to add next
22:30:21 <ais523> also, it's a pain to move Python code from inside a slightly indented block to a very indented block
22:30:35 <ais523> because you can't just automatically recompute the indent of every line
22:30:36 <ehird> with my editor, I just copy
22:30:40 <ais523> which is my normal technique
22:30:48 <ais523> ehird: it can't do in all cases
22:30:49 <ehird> it's not even emacs, too
22:30:51 <ehird> ais523: yes, it can
22:30:57 <ais523> physically impossible because there's sometimes more than one possibility
22:32:59 * ehird notes that python has 'let'
22:33:07 <ehird> (lambda a=2, b=3: ...)()
22:34:57 <AnMaster> probably it is either bad, or someone made it before
22:35:12 <ais523> AnMaster: Proud would be like that
22:35:19 <ais523> actually, Proud's like that but worrse
22:35:37 <ais523> it can handle an infinite amount of data
22:35:43 <AnMaster> ais523, and I didn't mean it as an esolang
22:35:44 <ais523> that's how it manages to be super-TC without loops
22:35:53 <AnMaster> but a mainstream language for the future
22:35:57 <ais523> you couldn't implement it on an actual quantum computer
22:36:06 <ais523> they don't have flow control
22:36:07 <ehird> mainstream language
22:36:12 <ehird> THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTUUUUUUUUUREEEEEEEEEEE
22:36:28 <AnMaster> ais523, ah so quantum prolog wouldn't work then
22:36:39 <ais523> well, you'd have to emulate it
22:36:44 <ais523> so it wouldn't actually save computing speed
22:36:48 <AnMaster> in fact I would like to read some beginners quide to how quantum computers work
22:36:51 <ehird> Quantum computers don't have flow control...?
22:37:02 <ais523> I did a project about learning about quantum computers once
22:37:07 <ais523> and they don't have flow control
22:37:12 <ais523> you need a regular computer to control them
22:37:15 <AnMaster> ais523, and how to program for them
22:37:24 <ais523> and I wrote a simulator
22:37:27 <ais523> and factorised 15 on it
22:37:30 <ehird> Quantum computers kinda sound like hype to me.
22:37:39 <ais523> AnMaster: not off the top of my head, unfortunately
22:38:25 <AnMaster> ais523, got some link to some good alternative then?
22:38:44 <ais523> I could google-search, but you could just as easily
22:39:02 <ais523> and probably not on this computer
22:39:10 <ais523> possibly not anywhere, actually
22:41:02 <ehird> ais523: what should i implement next
22:41:44 <ais523> an interp for an esolang currently not interpretable by this channel
22:42:09 <ais523> (btw, it just bounced the requests off Lambdabot; it was a joke)
22:42:36 <ais523> the Underload is genuine, though
22:44:26 -!- oepy has joined.
22:44:34 <oepy> {'rot13': <function <lambda> at 0xcf130>, 'help': <function <lambda> at 0xcf2f0>, 'echo': <function <lambda> at 0xcf270>}
22:44:45 <ais523> that's not all that useful
22:44:59 <ehird> is "rot13, help, echo" useful?
22:45:48 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:45:59 -!- oepy has joined.
22:46:01 <oepy> echo, help, rot13
22:47:30 <ais523> that isn't in here atm
22:47:38 <ehird> one python expression
22:47:54 <ehird> perhaps i should make it interpret one-expression python.
22:48:06 <ais523> ehird: that would be very dangerous
22:48:08 <ehird> wait, bsmnt_bot did that didn't it
22:48:11 <ais523> because it might let people hack your computer via the bot
22:48:13 <ehird> i'd just have to block __import__
22:48:55 <ehird> i think bsmntbombdood did one statement python
22:49:02 <ais523> yes, eir bot was chrooted
22:49:13 <ehird> i dont care about security.
22:49:22 <ehird> but if bsmnt_bot did one-expr python
22:49:22 <ais523> which server's oepy running on?
22:49:26 <ehird> then that is not speshul
22:49:31 <ehird> ais523: bournemouth
22:49:33 <ais523> if it's rutian, then I do
22:49:41 <ehird> also, ofc i'd secure it
22:49:46 <ehird> i wasnt talking about security
22:49:52 <ehird> (also: i'm the one who pays for rutian...)
22:49:57 <ais523> that's almost an esolang
22:50:10 <ehird> i'd prefer something you could use to write commands
22:50:11 <ais523> it's concatenative and TC
22:50:21 <ehird> that, you know, didn't kill you
22:50:25 <ais523> and you could just push the input on the stack at the start
22:50:25 <ehird> ais523: what's reverse in dc
22:50:31 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:51:04 <ais523> ehird: r swaps the top two stack elements
22:51:10 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:51:12 <ais523> to do more than that you need to either use variables
22:51:15 <ais523> or do it Underload-style
22:51:20 <ehird> ais523: i mean, input is on stack at the start
22:51:28 <ehird> show me a program that uses that
22:51:31 <ehird> to reverse the input
22:51:37 <ehird> if it's not trivial its not useful for making bot cmds :P
22:52:14 <optbot> Mony: >>> factors 557940830126698960967415390
22:52:24 <ais523> 'twould probably take about half-an-hour to write
22:52:52 <ais523> normally you just use dc for arithmetic
22:53:29 <ehird> anyone have any bright ideas?
22:54:21 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:54:39 -!- Mony has joined.
22:55:07 <ehird> ais523: pick an interesting language that is easy to write bot commands in
22:55:27 <ais523> except that that's whitespace-sensitive
22:57:04 <oerjan> glass should be somewhat easy
22:57:24 <ais523> oerjan: really? To write commands in, or to implement?
22:57:45 <ehird> class will be a pain to implement
22:57:47 <ehird> in one python expression
22:57:51 <ehird> although technically you can do classes
22:58:10 <ehird> type('name', (object,), {'func': (lambda self, a: ...)})
22:58:18 <oerjan> one python expression? why is that? just for the challenge?
22:58:37 <ehird> oerjan: The whole bot is one python expression.
22:58:44 <ehird> (Since that's an esolang that's easy to write stuff in.)
22:58:56 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/8gjbwT69.html is the current code, sans the help command.
22:59:05 <oerjan> python is not an esolang
22:59:05 <ehird> oerjan: nope, one expression that can be used as a statement
22:59:11 <ehird> one-expression python is an esolang.
22:59:34 <ehird> i mean just look at that paste
22:59:38 <ehird> it's easy to write, kinda
23:00:04 <ais523> ehird: I'm going to use that code to annoy a friend of mine who's a big Python fan, I think
23:00:12 <ais523> and who claims there's only one way to do things in Python
23:00:12 <AnMaster> I think ehird mean that it is eso, same way as obfuscated C is eso
23:00:14 <ehird> ais523: i doubt it'll annoy him
23:00:20 <ehird> ais523: he'll just have a seizure
23:00:23 <ehird> and then laugh himself to death
23:00:31 <ehird> anyway, the point is there's only one obvious, easy way
23:01:07 <AnMaster> ehird, also is that code indention sensitive?
23:01:08 <ehird> glass would be a pain
23:01:09 <ehird> as it's rather bloated.
23:01:22 <ehird> whitespace only determines blocks in python.
23:01:28 <AnMaster> non-indention sensitive python rocks
23:01:38 <AnMaster> everyone should write python code like that
23:01:42 <ehird> and that's why i'm writing it
23:02:13 <ehird> it's awful, unmaintainable shite
23:02:35 <AnMaster> ais523, also I haven't found any good introduction for how to program a quantum computer, plenty of generic introductions at hardware level
23:02:39 <ehird> which is the exact goal
23:02:53 * ehird thinks of esolangs...
23:02:56 <ais523> AnMaster: it's kind-of hard, as all the commands always run in exactly the same order
23:03:12 <ais523> because any attempt to depend on its internal state stops it working
23:03:14 <AnMaster> ais523, it should be easy to add new commands
23:03:30 <ais523> ehird wants to add an esolang command
23:03:41 <ais523> as atm e isn't implementing any langs besides Text and the rot13 version of it
23:03:57 <AnMaster> you need to add PING/PONG, but that should be trivial too
23:04:05 <ehird> freenode lets you ignore pings
23:04:11 <ais523> ehird: not forever it doesn't
23:04:15 <AnMaster> ehird, only if you send something else
23:04:22 <ais523> you have to do /something/ every now and then
23:04:23 <ehird> ais523: my experience suggests otherwise
23:04:25 <ais523> even if it isn't a PONG
23:04:27 <AnMaster> if it isn't sending anything you will time out
23:04:28 <ehird> that's easily doable
23:04:34 <ehird> just make it ping the _server_ every now and then
23:04:43 <ais523> but why not just respond to pings?
23:05:03 <ehird> esolang suggestions welcome
23:05:16 <AnMaster> ais523, sure I get it is kind of hard, but I would like to know the basic operations anyway
23:05:32 <ais523> AnMaster: there are only two of them IIRC
23:05:36 <ais523> one is probability rotation
23:05:40 <ais523> which is almost impossible to explain
23:05:48 <ais523> and the other one is a = a XOR b which is trivial
23:06:04 <AnMaster> ais523, that sounds almost like intercal ;)
23:06:29 <AnMaster> ais523, however try to explain them
23:06:31 <ehird> i think you need a degree in both quantum mechanics and computer science to understand quantum computing
23:06:34 <ais523> probability rotation is much harder to explain than SELCET
23:06:44 <ais523> hopefully, you know what XOR does though
23:06:53 <AnMaster> ais523, do you understand it? :)
23:07:08 <ais523> AnMaster: well, assume that each bit has a certain probablity of being 1
23:07:12 <ais523> and the rest of the time it's 0
23:07:14 <AnMaster> anyway should quantum computers become mainstream it will be hard to fine programmers
23:07:24 <ais523> except that these probabilities each have directions
23:07:45 <ehird> AnMaster: no it wont
23:07:48 <ehird> you'll just use libraries
23:07:59 <ehird> it's like saying x86 is hard to find programmers for
23:08:08 <ehird> because they don't know the low-level microcode
23:08:18 <AnMaster> ehird, ah quantum::whatever<std::string>?
23:08:18 <ehird> whereas, er, you could just use c or python
23:08:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Something like that.
23:08:37 <ais523> AnMaster: let me just show you an example program
23:08:39 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shor's_algorithm#Quantum_part:_Period-finding_subroutine
23:09:32 <ais523> yes, I implemented it once
23:09:41 <ais523> on a classical computer, though
23:09:45 <AnMaster> ais523, you got a degree in quantum mechanics?
23:09:56 <AnMaster> then ehird's statement is void
23:10:06 <AnMaster> <ehird> i think you need a degree in both quantum mechanics and computer science to understand quantum computing
23:10:11 <ais523> but I've forgotten bits of it by now
23:10:14 <ehird> How does an AnMaster know what hyperbole is???
23:10:22 <ais523> and even when I knew it I wouldn't really want to have to explain it
23:10:33 <AnMaster> ehird, err that can't be correct grammar
23:10:48 <ehird> AnMaster: how does a anmaster know what memes is.
23:11:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know lots of memes
23:11:19 <AnMaster> so I agree I lack experience there
23:12:18 <ehird> if I block 'eval' and '__import__' i think my evaller will be OK
23:12:39 <ehird> otherwise you could do
23:12:43 <ehird> eval('__im'+'port__("os").system("rm -rf ~")')
23:14:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I would like to see the finished code for that bot when you are done :)
23:14:26 <AnMaster> ehird, works like you intended it to
23:14:27 <ehird> Also, it's about as practical as fungot as far as coding style goes.
23:14:28 <fungot> ehird: maybe the 16-bit opcodes are four bits smaller.
23:14:40 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah but this is #esoteric
23:14:46 <AnMaster> and remember to show it in #python
23:14:58 <ehird> They'll just call me crazy and continue doing sane things.
23:15:10 <ehird> Or start giving a critique of the code style. *That'd* be amusing.
23:15:35 <ehird> Hmm. I think I might ask them about my current problem (How can I catch expressions without a try/exec block)
23:16:43 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:16:47 <AnMaster> ehird, well still, I'd like to see the code of a version that can connect and that works. Call it final version or not.
23:16:56 -!- oepy has joined.
23:17:04 <ehird> It'll only handle about 1000 messages, though.
23:17:16 <ehird> As it infinite loops by calling a function from within the same function over and over.
23:17:24 <ehird> And python has a small stack as it's not designed for functional programming.
23:17:46 <ehird> *epy __import__('sys').stdout.write('I AM EVIL')
23:17:46 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:17:56 <ehird> an exception, as I haven't implemented error recovery in epy yet
23:18:05 <AnMaster> ehird, sorry, just had to test
23:18:11 <ehird> (It replaces __import__ with no_import, so I got a 'no_import' is not defined error)
23:18:25 <AnMaster> ehird, and the thing I pasted a second before?
23:18:27 <ehird> I think I can fix the infinite loop problem
23:18:30 <ehird> AnMaster: No, a second after.
23:18:34 <ehird> It was ignored as it had already crashed.
23:18:38 <ehird> [[NameError: name 'no_import' is not defined]]
23:18:43 <ehird> Freenode thinks so too.
23:18:49 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on what server you are on
23:19:08 <AnMaster> ehird, on the server I'm connected to, I guess it agrees with me
23:19:14 <AnMaster> since I got 0.01 seconds lag to server
23:20:13 <ehird> I'm on a bouncer, so.
23:20:17 <ehird> rutian is a fast little thing, though.
23:20:31 <ehird> rutian is my server
23:20:49 <ehird> Featuring me, ais523, murphy, hideous, drew, and comex.
23:20:54 <ehird> Of whom you know 3.
23:20:59 <ehird> (me, ais523 and comex.)
23:21:21 <ehird> I own the server (a VPS technically), ais523 is sudoer.
23:21:57 <ehird> It houses optbot, ais523 and I's IRC connections.
23:21:57 <optbot> ehird: as one of the data types.
23:22:03 <ehird> And has a web server.
23:22:25 <oerjan> optbot: ah you're type-level programming?
23:22:25 <optbot> oerjan: toffoli gate is not quantum.
23:22:40 <ehird> Top memory user is optbot at 59.9% memory usage
23:22:44 <ehird> due to having every esoteric log, ever, in memory
23:22:46 <ehird> (256mb total memory on the slice)
23:22:53 <ehird> Followed by php-cgi, mysqld, apache2 and such at 5-1%
23:24:20 <ehird> The problem with #python is that they lie to you if they think you're doing something bad.
23:24:26 <ehird> (e.g. a single-expression exception handler)
23:25:24 <comex> single-expression exception handler
23:27:13 <ehird> eval(compile('try:\n raise Exception\nexcept Exception, e:\n print e', '', 'single'))
23:27:19 <ehird> Cheating, but what the heck
23:27:33 <AnMaster> ehird, do you remove duplicate lines from the logs?
23:27:50 <ehird> <habnabit_> ehird, would you really consider that clean, maintainable code?
23:27:53 <ehird> ^ Of course not, you moron!
23:28:05 <ehird> <habnabit_> ehird, it relies on implementation details anyway.
23:28:07 <AnMaster> ehird, How much memory would removing duplicate lines save?
23:28:11 <ehird> AnMaster: A lot, probably.
23:28:22 <AnMaster> ehird, it does rely on implementation details?
23:28:24 -!- Mony has quit ("Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent.").
23:28:35 <AnMaster> for languages that lack a standard
23:28:49 <AnMaster> ehird, don't see it in the paste?
23:28:59 <ehird> Because I'm modifying it.
23:29:02 <ehird> Also, there are multiple python impls.
23:29:33 <ehird> pppppppppyyyyyyyyyyy
23:29:44 <comex> it promised to be fast but never actually got there
23:29:56 <AnMaster> ehird, and I knew the names, just typoed them
23:30:06 <ehird> comex: it's still going...
23:30:20 <comex> ehird: yeah and it'll be finished around the time of dnf or perl6
23:30:32 <ehird> dnf=duke nukem forever
23:30:33 <comex> duke nukem forever
23:30:57 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
23:31:53 <ehird> <habnabit_> ehird, I hope this isn't production code.
23:32:32 <oerjan> tell him it's for an evil world domination plan, so it's okay
23:33:22 <oerjan> he should be _happy_ it isn't maintainable
23:33:39 -!- oepy has joined.
23:33:43 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:34:15 -!- oepy has joined.
23:34:17 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:34:42 <ehird> you're so observant
23:35:00 <AnMaster> Captain Obvious at your service.
23:35:06 -!- oepy has joined.
23:35:08 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:35:28 -!- oepy has joined.
23:35:31 * ehird considers offering a 'persist' dictionary for *epy that is persistant for a given user
23:35:53 <AnMaster> ehird, you didn't want it to work?
23:36:22 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:36:33 <ehird> it doesn't work _on my end_
23:37:09 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:37:20 <ehird> it outputted to my console
23:37:24 <ehird> because i was using the wrong type of compile
23:38:02 -!- puzzlet has joined.
23:38:05 <AnMaster> ehird, care to pastebin current code?
23:38:06 -!- oepy has joined.
23:38:15 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:38:24 <ehird> AnMaster: in a sec
23:38:45 <ehird> Meanwhile, here's a flood of the current epy code: [[ 'epy': (lambda s, *a:
23:38:45 <ehird> (lambda code: eval(
23:38:46 <ehird> 'try:\n s(repr(eval(compile(code, "<irc>", "eval"), {}, {})))\n' +
23:38:46 <ehird> 'except object, e:\n s(e.__class__.__name__ + ": " + str(e))',
23:38:50 <ehird> {'s': s, 'code': code}, {}))(' '.join(a).replace('eval', 'no_eval').replace('__import__', 'no_import'))
23:39:16 <ehird> compiles a string into a python code object
23:39:26 <AnMaster> ehird, that works around missing blocks?
23:39:45 <AnMaster> ehird, and is cpython specific?
23:40:04 <AnMaster> ehird, you said implementation specific before?
23:40:21 <ehird> not sure what he meant
23:40:41 <ehird> no, i bother him enough daily :-P
23:40:47 <ehird> i think he might have op access
23:40:56 <ehird> AnMaster: no, just stupid questions :D
23:41:36 -!- oepy has joined.
23:41:39 <oepy> ZeroDivisionError: integer division or modulo by zero
23:41:44 <ehird> TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL
23:41:54 <ehird> *epy i am a green butt
23:41:55 <oepy> SyntaxError: invalid syntax (<irc>, line 1)
23:42:01 <ehird> *epy print '__import__ lol'
23:42:01 <oepy> SyntaxError: invalid syntax (<irc>, line 1)
23:42:08 <ehird> *epy '__import__ lol'
23:42:09 <oepy> 'no_import lol'
23:42:42 <ehird> *epy eval('__i'+'mport__("sys").stdout.write("MWAHAHA")')
23:42:43 <oepy> NameError: name 'no_eval' is not defined
23:43:21 <ehird> now i give that persistence
23:43:54 <ehird> AnMaster: a reasonable interface would be persist('name', 'value') and persisted['user']['name']
23:44:05 <AnMaster> ehird, can't really say for python
23:44:16 <ehird> well, that's a pretty general interface
23:44:35 <AnMaster> ehird, if persisted is some hash array I guess so
23:44:45 <AnMaster> name would be a variable name?
23:44:47 <ehird> persisted = {user: {name: value}, ...}
23:44:54 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:44:57 <ehird> *epy persist('hello', 2)
23:45:01 <ehird> then to get it back
23:45:08 <ehird> *epy persisted['ehird']['hello']
23:45:16 <ehird> that means you can share too
23:45:25 <ehird> *epy persist('my_awesome_func', lambda x: x+2)
23:45:27 <ehird> then someone could do
23:45:35 <ehird> * epy persisted['ehird']['my_awesome_func'](3)
23:45:56 <ehird> itd be nice to omit the user, but then anyone could mess up others' stuff
23:46:02 <ehird> perhaps i'll add a shortcut
23:46:09 <ehird> my('foo') -> persisted[your_name]['foo']
23:46:17 <ehird> *epy persist('hello', 2)
23:46:18 <AnMaster> ehird, will you import some system libraries?
23:46:23 <ehird> *epy my('hello')*2
23:46:27 <AnMaster> I don't know what is needed for math stuff
23:46:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Unlikely, too many holes.
23:46:33 <ehird> I could import math, yes.
23:47:02 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe something like perl's sandbox stuff, forgot the name of it
23:47:21 <ehird> Python doesn't have sandboxing features, no.
23:48:01 <AnMaster> well I guess some math stuff would be nice. And possibly some other stuff, but I don't know enough python to say what
23:48:12 <AnMaster> for erlang for example I would allow lists module
23:48:23 <AnMaster> since that have stuff like map() and foldl() and such
23:48:37 <AnMaster> but that is hardly same paradigm
23:48:53 <AnMaster> and as I said I don't know python enough to know what would be nice to have, yet secure
23:49:25 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm sure you can figure out what could be needed/useful
23:49:41 <ehird> Well, single-expression python is an esolang.
23:49:45 <ehird> I don't think it needs much :-P
23:50:33 <AnMaster> ehird, sqrt/sin/cos/tan/asin/acos/atan/pow and similar
23:50:54 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly some way to map stuff on arrays?
23:50:56 <ehird> the math module has all of those
23:51:19 <ehird> just foldr, i think
23:52:42 <AnMaster> " mapfold combines the operations of map/2 and foldl/3 into one pass. An example, summing the elements in a list and double them at the same time:"
23:52:45 <oerjan> *epy reduce((lambda x, y : x-y), [1,2,3])
23:52:57 <ehird> oerjan: oepy is being upgraded
23:53:59 <ehird> AnMaster: It's unneeded.
23:54:02 <ehird> Just use map and reduce.
23:54:12 <ehird> Shut up it's an esolang.
23:55:14 <ehird> SHUTUPITSANESOLANG :|
23:55:17 <ehird> And it's called "filter".
23:55:36 -!- oepy has joined.
23:55:38 <AnMaster> a function that returns either true or false to map
23:55:38 <oepy> AttributeError: 'dict' object has no attribute 'a'
23:55:42 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:55:47 <oerjan> *epy reduce((lambda x, y : x-y), [1,2,3])
23:55:59 -!- oepy has joined.
23:56:03 <oerjan> *epy reduce((lambda x, y : x-y), [1,2,3])
23:56:13 <ehird> *epy look('ehird')
23:56:18 <ehird> *epy look('ehird')
23:56:25 <ehird> *epy look('AnMaster')
23:56:35 <ehird> *epy look('ehird').__setitem__('a', 2)
23:56:36 <oepy> AttributeError: '' object has no attribute '__setitem__'
23:57:06 <ehird> AnMaster: can you *epy get('a', user='ehird') please
23:57:34 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:57:37 <AnMaster> ehird, does this allow storing functions as well as values?
23:57:45 * ehird makes nice syntactic sugar:
23:57:49 <AnMaster> ehird, so python have first class functions?
23:58:04 <AnMaster> just a shame with the indention
23:58:11 <ehird> i couldn't have done that without first class functions up the wazoo
23:58:19 <AnMaster> ehird, you didn't paste the last code
23:58:26 <ehird> but even just the old one
00:00:36 -!- oepy has joined.
00:00:39 <ehird> *epy set(b=set(a=2))
00:00:40 <oepy> ('b', ('a', 2))
00:00:52 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:01:02 -!- oepy has joined.
00:01:03 <ehird> *epy set(a=set(b=2))
00:01:08 <oepy> NameError: name 'a' is not defined
00:01:17 <ehird> *epy look('ehird')
00:01:18 <oepy> {'a': 2, 'b': 2}
00:01:23 <ehird> *epy look('ehird').__setitem__('b', 3)
00:01:24 <oepy> AttributeError: 'user-view' object has no attribute '__setitem__'
00:01:33 <oepy> <module 'math' from '/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.5/lib/python2.5/lib-dynload/math.so'>
00:01:42 <oepy> ['__doc__', '__file__', '__name__', 'acos', 'asin', 'atan', 'atan2', 'ceil', 'cos', 'cosh', 'degrees', 'e', 'exp', 'fabs', 'floor', 'fmod', 'frexp', 'hypot', 'ldexp', 'log', 'log10', 'modf', 'pi', 'pow', 'radians', 'sin', 'sinh', 'sqrt', 'tan', 'tanh']
00:01:50 <oepy> {'__builtins__': {'IndexError': <type 'exceptions.IndexError'>, 'all': <built-in function all>, 'help': Type help() for interactive help, or help(object) for help about object., 'vars': <built-in function vars>, 'SyntaxError': <type 'exceptions.SyntaxError'>, 'unicode': <type 'unicode'>, 'UnicodeDecodeError': <type 'exceptions.UnicodeDecodeError'>, 'isinstance': <built-in function isinstance>, 'copyright': Copyright (c) 2001-2006 Python Software Foundation.
00:01:57 <oepy> {'IndexError': <type 'exceptions.IndexError'>, 'all': <built-in function all>, 'help': Type help() for interactive help, or help(object) for help about object., 'vars': <built-in function vars>, 'SyntaxError': <type 'exceptions.SyntaxError'>, 'unicode': <type 'unicode'>, 'UnicodeDecodeError': <type 'exceptions.UnicodeDecodeError'>, 'isinstance': <built-in function isinstance>, 'copyright': Copyright (c) 2001-2006 Python Software Foundation.
00:02:16 <ehird> * epy math.sqrt(3497234)
00:02:18 <ehird> *epy math.sqrt(3497234)
00:02:19 <oepy> 1870.0893026804897
00:02:22 <AnMaster> ehird, what did you say "oh damn" for?
00:02:40 <oerjan> *epy __builtins__.__import__
00:02:40 <AnMaster> *epy math.pow(3497234,37863827648)
00:02:40 <oepy> AttributeError: 'dict' object has no attribute 'no_import'
00:02:41 <oepy> OverflowError: math range error
00:02:43 <ehird> AnMaster: I thought there was a security hole.
00:02:44 <AnMaster> *epy math.pow(3497234,378637648)
00:02:45 <oepy> OverflowError: math range error
00:02:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, give it a spin.
00:02:53 <AnMaster> *epy math.pow(3497234, 378637648)
00:02:53 <oepy> OverflowError: math range error
00:02:55 <AnMaster> *epy math.pow(3497234, 3786376)
00:02:56 <oepy> OverflowError: math range error
00:03:00 <ehird> *epy 3497234**378637648
00:03:13 <ehird> math.pow is for floats
00:03:17 <AnMaster> ehird, so it doesn't like inf?
00:03:20 <ehird> the above just locked up oepy i think
00:03:21 <AnMaster> which would have been the valid number
00:03:28 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:03:40 -!- oepy has joined.
00:03:45 <AnMaster> ehird, but in a C program that pow produces inf after a few seconds
00:03:50 <oerjan> but it hurts when i don't do that
00:03:53 <ehird> that just means it uses bignums
00:04:01 <ehird> so it tries to get the full answer
00:04:05 <ehird> x**y is integer in python
00:04:08 <ehird> but it uses bignums
00:04:10 <ehird> so it just sits there
00:04:10 <AnMaster> ehird, for math.pow it would be floats
00:04:12 <ehird> happily calculating it
00:04:34 <ehird> MATH.POW IN PYTHON TAKES FLOATS
00:04:37 <ehird> IT ERRORED BECAUSE YOU GAVE IT INTS
00:04:46 <AnMaster> so it doesn't cast implicitly?
00:04:46 <ehird> like I _said the first time_
00:04:57 <ehird> no, because pow is BUILT IN TO THE LANGUAGE for ints
00:05:12 <ehird> *epy help(math.pow)
00:05:15 <AnMaster> ehird, well C would cast it implicitly
00:05:17 <ehird> that displayed on my console
00:05:24 <ehird> you don't understand
00:05:30 <ehird> math.pow is there for when you want range errors
00:05:34 <ehird> instead of infinite hang
00:05:35 <AnMaster> ehird, how should I know I need to do (float)874384
00:05:54 <ehird> stop talking because you're talking nonsense.
00:06:09 <AnMaster> ehird, no I'm not. If I work with double that should return inf
00:06:21 <AnMaster> if the floating point confirms to IEEE
00:06:31 <ehird> YOU WEREN'T DOING FLOATING POINTS
00:06:34 <ehird> YOU HAD NO .0 ANYWHERE
00:06:37 <ehird> YOU PASSED INTEGERS
00:06:40 <ehird> SO IT TREATED THEM AS INTEGERS
00:06:43 <AnMaster> *epy math.pow(3497234.0, 3786376.0)
00:06:43 <oepy> OverflowError: math range error
00:06:44 <ehird> BECAUSE YOU GAVE IT INTEGERS
00:07:16 <AnMaster> ehird, and when I want explicit inf I should use **
00:07:36 <ehird> 5 gajillion and 1th time lucky
00:07:53 <oepy> OverflowError: (34, 'Result too large')
00:08:20 <AnMaster> ehird, care to enlighten me why that didn't give inf then? :/
00:08:48 <oepy> ZeroDivisionError: float division
00:08:57 <AnMaster> that should have been NaN iirc
00:09:00 <ehird> comex: plz do '*epy get('a', user='ehird')'
00:09:08 <AnMaster> ehird, How do I get a floating point NaN in python?
00:09:48 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't support it? instead throwing an exception
00:09:56 <oepy> OverflowError: (34, 'Result too large')
00:10:13 <ehird> *epy float('-inf')
00:10:20 <AnMaster> ehird, well, That still means it isn't IEEE 754
00:10:26 <ehird> AnMaster: So what.
00:10:53 <AnMaster> ehird, meaning implementing FPDP in a python implemented befunge would be a pain in the arse for example
00:10:55 <ehird> [[Sorry, it has not. Providing a consistent 754 story across platforms is a
00:10:55 <ehird> pain in the ass, because none of this behavior is covered by C89, and every
00:10:55 <ehird> vendor does it a different way. So it requires a large pile of platform
00:10:55 <ehird> #ifdef'ed code, and platform experts to write and contribute that stuff. But
00:10:55 <ehird> so far, nobody has volunteered any actual work (talk, yes; code, no).]] -- Tim Peters, 2001
00:11:21 <AnMaster> ehird, well problem solved, C99 got a macro to check for it
00:11:44 <ehird> AnMaster: "C99" != "problem solved".
00:11:51 <AnMaster> ehird, also it could use a close mapping to hardware, so that if the platform had it, then it could just use it
00:12:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Python is a very-high-level-language.
00:12:03 <AnMaster> if it didn't, it would use whatever else the platform have
00:12:08 <ehird> "close mapping to hardware" == no.
00:12:18 <AnMaster> ehird, But does it need to abstract everything?
00:12:47 <oepy> NameError: name 'Infinity' is not defined
00:12:51 <ehird> *epy Infinity/Infinity
00:12:52 <oepy> NameError: name 'Infinity' is not defined
00:13:06 <ihope> I love it when ehird says something for the first time followed by "like I have said 5 gajillion times". Maybe.
00:13:16 <ehird> I didn't say it for the first time, thanks.)
00:13:33 <ehird> oepy says hi on all /msg.
00:14:15 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:14:23 * ehird pastes current oepy code
00:14:27 -!- oepy has joined.
00:14:39 <oepy> OverflowError: math range error
00:14:41 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/P3Zfd898.html
00:14:44 <AnMaster> http://docs.python.org/library/fpectl.html
00:14:49 <AnMaster> ehird, that says it should be Inf
00:14:50 <ehird> Things needed: actual persistence, etc.
00:14:57 <ehird> AnMaster: that's 2.6
00:15:18 <AnMaster> ehird, nice and readable code btw
00:15:36 <ehird> It's pretty-looking, but very unreadable shite.
00:15:42 <ehird> Tracking down bugs is a nightmare.
00:15:52 <ehird> AnMaster: It's only pretty if you can't actually read it (say if you don't know python).
00:16:09 <ehird> If you can read it, it's awful to try and understand & write.
00:16:15 <AnMaster> 'echo': (lambda s, *a: s(' '.join(a))),seems pretty clear to me
00:16:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Hoorah! One line is readable! Therefore the whole program is readable!
00:16:52 <AnMaster> some parts is actually a bit hard to read
00:17:07 <ehird> Now if you'll excuse me I have to try and _write code in this thing_. Which is not easy. Because it's ugly.
00:17:13 <AnMaster> (match(r':([^!]+)\S* PRIVMSG ((oepy) .*|(#esoteric) :.*oepy.*)', txt), (lambda a, _, b, c:
00:17:13 <AnMaster> (lambda x: socket.send('PRIVMSG %s :%s\r\n' % x))(
00:17:13 <AnMaster> {'oepy': (a, 'hi'), '#esoteric': ('#esoteric', 'hi '+a)}[b or c]
00:17:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Or how about how variables and their definitions are about 20 lines apart due to the lambda hack I use.
00:18:00 <ehird> Or the useless use of map and such because it's the shortest way to write it as such with such constraints.
00:18:16 <ehird> Unless you know python just don't even start to say it's pretty.
00:18:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it is pretty lispy/schemish code
00:18:49 <ehird> It takes the same kind of structure out of neccessity. It has none of the elegance.
00:19:02 <AnMaster> ehird, it is less elegant I agree
00:19:08 <AnMaster> but it is better than plain python
00:21:35 <AnMaster> ehird, why aren't you using python 2.6? It was released October 1 it seems
00:21:47 <ehird> Ain't broke, don't fix.
00:21:54 <ehird> i'll upgrade when i need to.
00:23:42 <AnMaster> ehird, "Alternate syntax for catching exceptions: except TypeError as exc."
00:25:52 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:26:02 -!- oepy has joined.
00:26:12 <ehird> *epy set(test=lambda *a: 'hi')
00:26:13 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0xd13b0>
00:26:20 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:26:26 <AnMaster> Python 2.6 introduces a convention for user-specific site directories. The directory varies depending on the platform:
00:26:26 <AnMaster> * Unix and Mac OS X: ~/.local/
00:26:32 <AnMaster> that is used for something else here
00:26:45 <ehird> I think ~/.local/ is a generic dir.
00:27:06 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it seems to contain trash for example
00:27:15 <AnMaster> but I hope the use some subdir
00:27:31 <AnMaster> Within this directory, there will be version-specific subdirectories, such as lib/python2.6/site-packages on Unix/Mac OS and Python26/site-packages on Windows.
00:28:14 -!- oepy has joined.
00:28:20 <ehird> *epy set(test=lambda *a: 'hi')
00:28:21 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0xd13b0>
00:31:14 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:31:25 -!- oepy has joined.
00:31:26 <ehird> *epy set(test=lambda *a: 'hi')
00:31:27 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0xd13b0>
00:32:07 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:32:18 -!- oepy has joined.
00:32:41 <ehird> *epy set(test=lambda *a: 'hi')
00:32:42 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0xd13b0>
00:32:53 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:33:04 -!- oepy has joined.
00:33:07 <ehird> *epy set(test=lambda *a: 'hi')
00:33:08 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0xd13b0>
00:34:57 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:35:08 -!- oepy has joined.
00:35:11 <ehird> *epy set(test=lambda *a: pr('Hello, world!'))
00:35:11 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0xd1270>
00:35:16 <oepy> NameError: global name 'pr' is not defined
00:35:24 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:35:34 -!- oepy has joined.
00:35:38 <ehird> *epy set(test=lambda *a: pr('Hello, world!'))
00:35:38 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0xd12b0>
00:36:05 <oepy> NameError: global name 'setitem' is not defined
00:36:12 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:36:22 -!- oepy has joined.
00:36:24 <ehird> *epy set(test=lambda *a: pr('Hello, world!'))
00:36:25 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0xd12b0>
00:36:39 <oepy> 'Hello, world!'
00:37:00 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:37:10 -!- oepy has joined.
00:37:11 <ehird> *epy set(test=lambda a: pr('Hello, '+a+'!'))
00:37:12 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0xd12f0>
00:37:16 <oepy> TypeError: <lambda>() takes exactly 1 argument (0 given)
00:37:27 <ehird> *epy set(test=lambda x='world', *a: pr('Hello, '+x+'!'))
00:37:28 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0xd1270>
00:37:46 <ehird> *epy set(test=lambda *a: pr('Hello, '+' '.join(a)+'!'))
00:37:46 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0xd13b0>
00:37:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Discuss.
00:37:59 <ehird> fizzie: Mr botter #2, discuss.
00:38:18 <ehird> AnMaster: The workage of the above.
00:39:08 <AnMaster> storing first class functions yes
00:39:20 <AnMaster> no idea if it persists across sessions
00:39:22 <ehird> The 'command defining' aspect.
00:39:42 <AnMaster> ehird, it is global for all users?
00:39:50 <AnMaster> what if I define my own colliding one?
00:40:06 <AnMaster> or is set no longer local to user?
00:40:07 <fungot> ehird: oh weh mir will bei meiner fnord sein
00:40:23 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
00:40:31 <ehird> ^def test bf ,[.,]
00:40:32 <AnMaster> *epy set(test=lambda *a: pr('Hi, '+' '.join(a)+'!'))
00:40:33 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0xd1270>
00:40:34 <oerjan> fungot: ich weiss nicht, was soll es bedeuten
00:40:35 <fungot> oerjan: rsa gives 200k for getting the first instruction ( byte 0), ( n+n/ fnord/ fnord
00:40:35 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
00:40:38 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
00:41:33 <AnMaster> ehird, you may want to prevent that
00:41:49 <oepy> SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing (<irc>, line 0)
00:42:24 <AnMaster> ehird, question: How do I unset a value
00:42:44 <oepy> KeyError: 'foo'
00:42:52 <oerjan> an unsettling question
00:42:58 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0xd1270>
00:43:03 <oepy> NameError: name 'remove' is not defined
00:43:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Just set it to None.
00:43:19 <oepy> KeyError: 'foo'
00:43:25 <oepy> TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not callable
00:43:36 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:43:42 <AnMaster> ehird, is it possible to make a command that maps to some other user's function?
00:43:54 <ehird> *epy set(thing=get('thing', user='otherguy'))
00:44:14 -!- oepy has joined.
00:44:17 <AnMaster> and would it really work if the original user changed thing
00:44:24 <ehird> Then: *epy set(thing=lambda *a: get('thing', user='otherguy')(*a))
00:45:07 <AnMaster> ehird, can you use lambda to make an accumulator like in scheme?
00:45:13 <oepy> NameError: name 'unset' is not defined
00:45:32 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:45:34 <AnMaster> ehird, that is some local stuff like define and set!
00:45:40 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, with a hack
00:45:43 -!- oepy has joined.
00:46:30 <ehird> (lambda n: (lambda x: (lambda i: (x.__setitem__(0,x[0]+i), x[0])[1]))([n]))
00:46:37 <ehird> *epy set(accgen=(lambda n: (lambda x: (lambda i: (x.__setitem__(0,x[0]+i), x[0])[1]))([n])))
00:46:38 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0xd1270>
00:46:44 <ehird> *epy set(myacc=accgen(5))
00:46:44 <oepy> NameError: name 'accgen' is not defined
00:46:49 <ehird> *epy set(myacc=get('accgen')(5))
00:46:49 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0xd1770>
00:46:56 <oepy> NameError: name 'myacc' is not defined
00:46:59 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0xd1770>
00:47:03 <ehird> *epy get('myacc')(5)
00:47:05 <ehird> *epy get('myacc')(5)
00:47:14 <ehird> AnMaster: No explicit way to access a var from the specific scope.
00:47:26 <ehird> And yes, well, lambda is discouraged
00:47:28 <ehird> Python is imperative.
00:47:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Python is an imperative languag.
00:47:58 <ehird> It just happens to have a few functional features which I abuse by using for everything.
00:48:01 <ehird> It's just a novelty.
00:48:05 <AnMaster> ehird, well it had great potential for being a good mix of functional and imperative
00:48:27 <ehird> *epy unset('myacc')
00:48:30 <oepy> KeyError: 'myacc'
00:49:24 <AnMaster> and then some way to persist across sessions
00:49:44 <AnMaster> ehird, can you serialise python into sqlite db or something?
00:50:01 <ehird> I can serialize the code by saving it as a string and then pickle the lists, sure.
00:50:10 <ehird> *epy set(reverse=lambda *a: pr(' '.join(a)[::-1]))
00:50:10 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0xd1530>
00:50:13 <ehird> *cmd reverse reverse
00:50:14 <AnMaster> ehird, ok that sounds horrible
00:50:18 <ehird> *reverse abcd efg hi
00:50:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Not really.
00:50:32 <AnMaster> ehird, it will work for "<function <lambda> at 0xd1530>" too?
00:50:54 <ehird> AnMaster: no, which is why i'd save the code as a string
00:51:07 <AnMaster> ehird, ah you mean store it originally as a string too?
00:51:21 <AnMaster> well this have been most interesting, but now I really really need to sleep
00:51:29 <ehird> AnMaster: shall i paste the code first?
00:51:34 <AnMaster> I hope this bot will have a bright future
00:51:40 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/8g7uKm57.html
00:51:43 <AnMaster> I like to scare python fans with it!
00:51:54 <ehird> also, i'll probably get it running sufficiently and then consider it finished save for bugfixes :-P
00:51:59 <ehird> maybe write a bot I can actually maintain
00:52:07 <ehird> still, i'm proud of what i have
00:52:43 <ehird> should I paste that into #python
00:52:48 <AnMaster> ehird, you are right to be proud
00:53:01 <AnMaster> ehird, you put the fun back in python
00:53:59 <ehird> <Storlek> ehird: awesome
00:53:59 <AnMaster> <ehird> Storlek: Awesome heart attacks!
00:54:04 <ehird> <Crys_> ehird: no more LISP for you! :p
00:54:09 <AnMaster> <Crys_> ehird: no more LISP for you! :p
00:54:31 <AnMaster> when you talked about asking that channel first time
00:54:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't normally idle there
00:55:00 <ehird> <habnabit_> ehird, eh.
00:55:00 <AnMaster> <ehird> unfortunately it'll only survive for about 1000 lines
00:55:00 <AnMaster> <ehird> due to the recursion loop :(
00:55:11 <ehird> AnMaster: look at the this(this,persisted,extra_cmds)
00:55:16 <ehird> it calls it recursively for every line
00:55:18 <ehird> + small stack = ...
00:55:20 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean python doesn't have tail recursion?
00:55:47 <ehird> it's an imperative language.
00:56:40 <AnMaster> ehird, but even some C compilers optimise tail recursion
00:56:56 <AnMaster> ehird, and C is much much more imperative than python
00:56:57 <ehird> But no sane program relies on it.
00:57:57 <oerjan> maybe there is some other way to iterate within an expression?
00:58:26 <ehird> habnabit_: map(f, iter(lambda: True, False))
00:58:33 <ehird> or i could add a tailcall trampoline
00:58:55 <AnMaster> ehird, um that is serious python-fu
00:59:42 <ehird> map is a map function.
00:59:49 <ehird> iter on a lambda makes an iterator
00:59:57 -!- slereah has joined.
01:00:10 <ehird> returning (value,is_at_end)
01:00:16 <ehird> so that yields true
01:00:52 <oerjan> one problem though: doesn't it try to collect the results?
01:01:05 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
01:01:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, it should, meaning non-tail recursion
01:01:43 <oerjan> well a little memory leak
01:01:56 <ehird> map would return an iterator
01:02:05 <ehird> which would throw away its value whenever it yield
01:02:07 <ehird> <CSWookie> Storlek: I don't see any reason to be proud of achieving a goal that isn't worth accomplishing.
01:02:12 <AnMaster> <habnabit_> ehird, where's the bot? I can circumvent that security easily enough.
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01:03:43 <AnMaster> ehird, you forgot to code that
01:03:45 <oepy> <type 'function'>
01:03:52 <oepy> {'__builtins__': <module '__builtin__' (built-in)>, '__name__': '__main__', '__file__': 'onelineesobot.py', '__doc__': None}
01:04:00 <ehird> (Originally it was one line...)
01:04:10 <habnabit_> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__import__('os').fork
01:04:11 <oepy> AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'no_import'
01:04:22 <habnabit_> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__import__
01:04:23 <oepy> AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'no_import'
01:04:32 <habnabit_> *epy vars(unset.func_globals['__builtins__'])
01:04:32 <oepy> {'IndexError': <type 'exceptions.IndexError'>, 'all': <built-in function all>, 'help': Type help() for interactive help, or help(object) for help about object., 'vars': <built-in function vars>, 'SyntaxError': <type 'exceptions.SyntaxError'>, 'unicode': <type 'unicode'>, 'UnicodeDecodeError': <type 'exceptions.UnicodeDecodeError'>, 'isinstance': <built-in function isinstance>, 'copyright': Copyright (c) 2001-2006 Python Software Foundation.
01:04:36 <oerjan> ok not _that_ screwed :D
01:04:40 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')
01:04:40 <oepy> <built-in function __import__>
01:04:58 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')('sys').stdout.write('Hmm. I wonder how to fix this.')
01:05:16 <ehird> habnabit_: I don't suppose you have any bright ideas? :-P
01:05:32 <AnMaster> I think python need something like that sandbox thingy perl have
01:06:01 <ehird> habnabit_: You have a better suggestion? :-P
01:06:16 <ehird> i'd quite like the wonderful people of this place to experience the insanity that single-expression python gives.
01:06:17 <AnMaster> ehird, writing a python interpreter in lambda-style python?
01:06:20 <habnabit_> Make a FORTRAN interpreter instead.
01:06:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Harsh, man. Harsh.
01:06:35 <ehird> habnabit_: Pfft. :-P
01:06:52 <habnabit_> What's it called? The stack-based language.
01:06:59 <AnMaster> ehird, written as single line lambda?
01:07:11 <ehird> habnabit_: Or anything on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list...
01:07:12 <AnMaster> FORTH probably is what you mean indeed
01:07:39 <ehird> (fungot happens to be written in befunge.)
01:07:39 <fungot> ehird: except you have to
01:07:52 <ehird> (but that is brainfuck.)
01:08:01 <ehird> FORTH would be a pain in python, though.
01:08:05 <ehird> It can directly access the memory.
01:08:17 <habnabit_> Just make some FORTH-like language.
01:08:24 <habnabit_> Stack-based things are really easy to implement.
01:08:51 <habnabit_> Just like how an RPN calculator is much easier to implement than some infix thing.
01:08:52 <ehird> habnabit_: Sure, thutubot is written in a string-rewriting language and does underload.
01:08:55 <AnMaster> habnabit_, don't you realise we are all slightly insane by your standards in here? :)
01:09:06 <ehird> But I think I'll hack at it to make it do one-expr python reasonably safely.
01:09:15 <ehird> habnabit_: #python's I guess he means.
01:09:16 <AnMaster> habnabit_, not sure, but basically we think doing things in obscure ways is fun
01:09:21 <habnabit_> ehird, it already does one-expression python.
01:09:25 <ehird> But yeah, considering we're a community based entirely around esoteric programming languages...
01:09:30 <ehird> habnabit_: But with security holes.
01:09:31 <AnMaster> habnabit_, like obfuscated c is sane compared with some things in here ;P
01:09:35 <habnabit_> eval can *only* evaluate one expression.
01:10:19 <AnMaster> habnabit_, http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
01:10:20 <fungot> AnMaster: i have been creating some pages
01:10:24 <fungot> AnMaster: gambit does transparent nonblocking io of course. can't perform the ritual. and lo and behold
01:11:26 <AnMaster> habnabit_, oh and ais523 (who is afk) maintains one of the INTERCAL implementations
01:12:02 <AnMaster> I'm sure you know what intercal is, but if you don't, you probably don't *want* to know
01:12:42 <AnMaster> habnabit_, in fact I consider ehird's one expression python code beautiful, though I admit I don't know python well. I prefer C, Erlang and Scheme
01:13:14 <fungot> AnMaster: i paid 25 eur for my nokia communicator 9110
01:13:19 <habnabit_> Sure. But it's not really one expression.
01:13:25 <ehird> habnabit_: AnMaster hates Python because of whitespace indentation, I think it's safe to say his opinion on Python code is a bit silly.
01:13:29 <ehird> Also, it is so one expression.
01:13:33 <habnabit_> lambda *lists: (lambda iters: (reduce(lambda (ll, res), l: (l, res if ll is None else (res and ll == l)), reduce(lambda ds, elems: map(lambda d, elem: d.__setitem__(elem, d.get(elem, 0) + 1) or d, ds, elems) or ds, zip(*iters), [{} for x in xrange(len(lists))]), (None, True)))[-1] and not (lambda l: map(lambda it: list((itt.next(), l.append(True)) for itt in (it,)), iters) and bool(l))([]))(map(iter, lists)) if lists else True
01:13:40 <AnMaster> I do think whitespace indention have lots of issues yes
01:14:04 <AnMaster> I prefer either brances, or erlang style
01:14:34 <AnMaster> erlang use . to end a function , to separate expressions in a function and ; to end a function clause
01:14:34 <oerjan> habnabit_: embrace your dark side >:D
01:14:50 <habnabit_> I have a bunch more python oneliners I've written.
01:14:51 <ehird> oerjan is a published mathematician who wrote an unlambda interpreter in intercal.
01:14:54 <AnMaster> it have none of the drawbacks of {} or indention based
01:15:22 <AnMaster> not being a big python fan I admit I can't figure out what it does
01:15:35 <AnMaster> not enough clues in the code really
01:15:40 <habnabit_> It's the same as sorted(L1) == sorted(L2) == sorted(L3) == ...
01:15:54 <AnMaster> sorted would check if a list is sorted I assume?
01:16:14 <ehird> sorted returns a sorted version
01:16:16 <habnabit_> No, it returns a sorted copy of a list.
01:16:28 <ehird> sort is an imperative
01:16:32 <habnabit_> .sort is an inplace method of lists.
01:16:34 <ehird> thus should mutate
01:16:39 <ehird> but sorted describes the transition
01:16:47 <habnabit_> So you have list.sort(), which is faster because it sorts in place.
01:16:56 <habnabit_> And then there's sorted, which returns a sorted list from any iterable.
01:17:00 <AnMaster> habnabit_, Single Assignment make so much more sense! :P
01:17:14 <habnabit_> What's that have to do with sorting lists?
01:17:23 <AnMaster> well for a start you would always get a new copy
01:17:34 <ehird> habnabit_: AnMaster actually only knows 3 languages, C, Bash (which he uses for big projects like his 'modular irc bot') and Erlang, but he likes to show off that he knows Erlang nowadays.
01:17:36 <ehird> I'm leaving now. Bye.
01:17:46 <AnMaster> ehird, now you are exagerating
01:18:07 <AnMaster> I already wrote some scheme programs including a simple befunge93 interpreter
01:18:23 <AnMaster> once it is fully finished to handle IO correctly I will publish it
01:18:46 <AnMaster> 02:18 in the night, really need to change that sleep pattern
01:19:09 <AnMaster> habnabit_, oh and in case you want to see my insane modular irc bot in bash: http://envbot.kuonet.org
01:19:23 <AnMaster> and it is somewhat like ehird's one-expression
01:20:14 <AnMaster> habnabit_, well that is different
01:20:23 * AnMaster ssh in to the freebsd jail it runs in
01:21:29 <AnMaster> habnabit_, ok some upgrade broke it
01:21:41 <AnMaster> probably because that is coded in python
01:21:58 <AnMaster> Traceback (most recent call last):
01:21:58 <AnMaster> File "/usr/local/share/trac/cgi-bin/trac.fcgi", line 19, in <module>
01:21:58 <AnMaster> from trac.web import fcgi_frontend
01:21:58 <AnMaster> ImportError: No module named trac.web
01:23:27 <AnMaster> habnabit_, happen to have any bright ideas?
01:24:03 <habnabit_> I wouldn't recommend using fcgi, though.
01:24:53 <AnMaster> habnabit_, then what do you suggest? I need to server bzr branches
01:26:41 <AnMaster> going would mean "going away" to me
01:26:53 <habnabit_> Looks like mod_wsgi works with bzr, too.
01:27:08 <AnMaster> habnabit_, not really what I meant, I server them statically
01:27:18 <AnMaster> since bzr can work on plain web server
01:27:37 <AnMaster> anyway envbot is semi-dead really
01:27:54 <AnMaster> however I'm proud over what I managed
01:29:09 <AnMaster> habnabit_, I hope you will stay here :)
01:29:29 <AnMaster> RIght now isn't prime time, many of the most active people live in Europe
01:29:43 <AnMaster> So like me, they are heading to bed.
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01:35:00 * comex tries to compile pypy, and fails
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01:41:02 <comex> if this actually works ...
01:41:24 <comex> well, it's the first 1.0 software tbqh that I've had to fix a bug to get compile
01:41:57 <GregorR> Moxie is so much better than all other soda.
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02:40:21 <ihope> I've never had moxie.
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02:46:13 <GregorR> ihope: It's effectively limited to one state :P
02:46:57 <ihope> What state is that?
02:47:03 <ihope> And why can't it be found elsewhere?
02:47:14 <GregorR> Because they don't sell it elsewhere :P
02:47:37 <ihope> Can you buy it in Maine, take it somewhere else, and sell it there?
02:48:23 <GregorR> There are a few places that sell it in Oregon.
02:48:29 <ihope> "USED: Six cans of MOXIE soft drink. No visible damage. Still factory sealed."
02:48:57 <GregorR> But yuh, I bought mine online.
02:49:28 <oerjan> I think we shall have to liberate Maine and relieve them of these WMDs...
02:49:53 <ihope> How did you get your hands on Moxie in Indiana?
02:50:38 <GregorR> (Had a bunch of it shipped)
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03:36:18 <oerjan> http://www.thinkin-lincoln.com/index.php?strip_id=1
03:37:46 <oerjan> (made me laugh, that one)
03:43:05 <oerjan> http://www.thinkin-lincoln.com/index.php?strip_id=8
03:43:21 <oerjan> maybe i'm getting tired like oklopol
04:18:37 <oerjan> <ehird> i think bsmntbombdood did one statement python
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05:18:03 <edwardk> I finally figured out how to make kata views efficient =)
05:18:38 <edwardk> i realize uttering the word 'efficient' around here is grounds for a beating, but hey
05:18:49 <edwardk> kata is my more or less untyped haskell-alike
05:18:59 <edwardk> i use wadler style views in it rather than typeclasses
05:19:27 <edwardk> where a view is defined as a sort of hybrid between a haskell data type and a open function definition
05:20:23 <edwardk> so in a wadler-style view. you'd say define a view Nat on integers that took 0 to the constructor Z and then took any other integer n to S (n -1)
05:20:32 <edwardk> then you could use S and Z or the more traditional integers
05:21:29 <edwardk> in kata-style views, you also say what constructors the view consists of, but the view itself is a function and you define the function as you would normally. any attempt to pattern match on a constructor that is part of a view applies the appropriate view function
05:21:52 <edwardk> so given constructors && and ||:
05:22:17 <edwardk> bool :: view True | False; bool (True && b) = bool b; bool (False && _) = False
05:23:19 <edwardk> a view is automatically idempotent and is an identity function on its own constructors, and in this case is defined on the additional && constructor, but when applied there it first applies the boolean view to the first argument of the && constructor, and case matches appropriately from there.
05:23:48 <edwardk> the problem is basically i wound up building up these free magmas of structures 1 + (2 + 3) didn't build a thunk chain it built a data structure.
05:24:10 <edwardk> and then applying the 'int' view to that was like 'walking an evaluation function' down a tree
05:24:27 <edwardk> so i finally figured out a way to cache the result of applying certain views to different data structures
05:24:35 <edwardk> which lets me recover haskell like efficiency
05:26:01 <edwardk> basically i had to steal a trick from a chess program
05:26:36 <edwardk> crafty had this trick for doing lockless caching of best move calculations in its transposition tables
05:27:40 <edwardk> in the ghc spineless tagless g-machine you store a tag and a fwding pointer along with the data, in kata you store the tag, a forwarding pointer and a 'view' that derived that forwarding pointer. unfortunately. if you aren't careful that leads to a race condition, because without a lock
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05:28:03 <edwardk> you would read one fwding pointer, then someone could come along and write in another fwding pointer and view before you got to the view.
05:29:32 <edwardk> so instead i store the fwding pointer xored with the view instead. then to see if a view has already been applied to a thunk i check to see if fwd ^ fwd ^ the-view-i-read = the-view-i-want if so then fwd points to the answer, if not either the wrong view was stored or someone is racing me and its inconsistent
05:30:46 <edwardk> its always safe (if inefficient) to recompute a view, so it takes it to a conservative case for the rare (1-in-a-million)^2 kinda case where we both happen to be evaluating the same datastructure and i read it right as you overwrite it
05:31:00 <edwardk> which then just does the right thing
05:31:08 <edwardk> and no locks need enter into it
05:31:22 <edwardk> so its kinda like the blackholing tricks used by ghc
05:33:30 <edwardk> anyways it made me happy =)
05:34:29 <edwardk> unfortunately it plays hell with my garbage collector which heretofore didn't have to worry about writes changing the set of pointers visible from the local dataset into itself (i had some tricks that let me garbage collect separately per processor)
05:36:55 * oerjan discovers he's very tired
05:37:16 <edwardk> (previously other threads didn't have to care if another thread was garbage collecting, any object that could be shared had a root pinned to keep it from oving, before copy collecting, propagate the pins transitively and don't move anything pinned) unfortunately since any thread can 'view' any other thread's data that fails here, since now you run into the traditional garbage collector/mutator race conditions that plague most concurrent col
05:37:47 * edwardk discovers he is blathering on
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06:23:28 <GregorR> It's hard to find good test cases for a garbage collector.
06:24:10 <GregorR> I wrote up a quick-n-dirty generational GC, but my test cases are pathologically bad (tons of object churn with bad natural locality) so the GC is actually going faster than the non-GC version.
06:33:29 <edwardk> in this case i've been using a per-processor copy-collector, where i allocate objects in garbage collected regions, inter-region links are pinned so they don't move, so anything with inter-region (hence all inter-processor) links can't be copy collected, they get globally mark/swept and ultimately mark/compacted.
06:34:10 <edwardk> it lets me get rid of most of my garbage without any inter-thread communication, but forces some constraints on how i can use objects or pass pointers around
06:36:21 <edwardk> unfortunately the view stuff i was rambling on above invalidates one of the central invariants of my gc model which is that an inter-region link could only be evaluated by another process to a value that it could reach transitively from a reference it had been handed (and it a reference is ever handed out it is pinned, and pins are propagated before sweeping)
06:38:31 <edwardk> so if i'm not the process that owns a region i don't have to care about the state of anything not transitively reachable from a pinned root, and since before copy collecting i propagate the pins (its just a mark pass, pins are the initial grey set) and hence any garbage collection done by the other processor is invisible to me. but if i want to collect pinned stuff i have to eventually give in and run a global collection
06:58:35 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/comic/mathematicians.jpg
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07:01:44 <psygnisfive> tho stick figures arent really anyones 'style' :P
07:02:44 <psygnisfive> xkcd's style is: stick figures + geek humor
07:03:12 <asiekierka> Screebles style is: stick figures + school-bored-lesson-like drawing + nonsense
07:03:37 <Jiminy_Cricket> On that note I need to go to bed, I have to be at a math tournament in 7 hours...
07:03:55 <psygnisfive> cyanide and happiness is stick figures + faces + torsos + black humor
07:05:45 <asiekierka> http://wellnowwhat.net/comic/mathematicians.jpg - this comic... lacks a good punchline.
07:06:08 <asiekierka> And to whoever made it: "Make the guys look like they're laughing when they are"
07:06:34 <psygnisfive> im not sure how to make stick figures look like they're laughing :(
07:06:51 <asiekierka> it's possible even in MS *bleeping* PAINT!
07:07:21 <asiekierka> Also, i must finally upload screebles 26-32 soon
07:07:31 <psygnisfive> since Someone's art has facial expressions
07:08:11 <asiekierka> The one with constant 500's. Since i don't feel like re-uploading the whole script
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07:09:08 <asiekierka> so there are a total of 32 screebles AND 6 animated screebles AND 5 animated whiteboard screebles
07:15:38 <asiekierka> in the meanwhile, i'll connect my VCR and finally copy that megaman nt warrior final eps
07:23:00 <asiekierka> the final half of axess got aired here 2 months ago
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07:31:05 <asiekierka> that were xkcd influenced, but slowly branched
07:31:15 <asiekierka> to asiekierkism, OR, my way of nonsense
07:31:42 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles
07:33:16 <asiekierka> then it slowly branched away to my nonsense
07:33:21 <asiekierka> Also, i didn't do anything in MS paint
07:34:54 <asiekierka> Except "don't draw on this little paper"
07:44:15 <moozilla> i can't tell what most of them say :-/
07:44:57 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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07:45:32 <asiekierka> But i can't write better on such a small notebook!
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08:09:09 <fizzie> PLoP is a predicate logic formula evaluator used for the homework in our logic course. (Nowadays; it used to use otter, the theorem-prover.)
08:10:23 <asiekierka> Anyone knows why Taxi doesn't work with NetCat
08:10:43 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc xaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul test
08:11:03 <optbot> asiekierka: but e.g. sam ruby uses it so he can embed svg and mathml
08:11:03 <optbot> fungot: that is clever
08:11:04 <fungot> optbot: does not compute.
08:11:04 <optbot> fungot: SICP IS A POLYGAMISRT
08:11:04 <fungot> optbot: it's a paper on prescheme, right?
08:11:04 <optbot> fungot: I had two open
08:11:04 <fungot> optbot: ( and i know this
08:11:05 <fungot> optbot: too true, actually. haskell is computing ack(4,2)... over and over
08:15:24 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc
08:15:31 <pikhq> fizzie: Plof > PLoP.
08:15:36 <fizzie> That was entirely too many senseless commands.
08:17:03 <fizzie> Although I guess the ul command was kinda nice, even though it only was capable of outputting like three things, and useless with thutubot here.
08:23:05 <fizzie> It goes "out of time" with any nontrivial programs. Concatenation is about the only thing that works.
08:28:55 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul
08:34:05 <fizzie> Yes, a Funge-98 underload interp is on my to-do list.
08:35:31 <asiekierka> Getting Taxi to cooperate with netcat is on my priority list
08:59:46 <AnMaster> I use something similar in my irc bot in bash
08:59:57 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also maybe socat would work better then
09:00:20 <asiekierka> or if there's a native windows binary of it
09:01:02 <AnMaster> asiekierka, from man page http://rafb.net/p/FNQWQX80.html
09:01:17 <AnMaster> you could do something similar for stdin/stdout (1 and 2)
09:02:35 <asiekierka> I'm not sure if taxi does output to stdout
09:02:48 <asiekierka> Netcat+Taxi (with the -e command) FAIL
09:02:51 <AnMaster> asiekierka, did you compile taxi under cygwin?
09:03:12 <asiekierka> i did it earlier but i recompiled it (thx ehird)
09:03:35 <AnMaster> asiekierka, try 2>/dev/null, do you still get output from taxi?
09:03:46 <AnMaster> if not, it uses stderr for output
09:04:02 <asiekierka> taxi.exe tst.txt 2>/dev/null in Windows!?
09:05:25 <AnMaster> asiekierka, so it use stdout then
09:05:58 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well I'm not sure fifos work under cygwin
09:06:04 <asiekierka> ./nc -v -v -e ./exec.sh irc.freenode.net 6667
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09:07:22 <asiekierka> If i run taxi.exe directly, as in, -e "./taxi.exe tst.txt", it quits after a short while
09:07:25 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I'm not sure how nc works with that option
09:07:42 <asiekierka> -e prog program to exec after connect [dangerous!!]
09:07:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, can you pastebin the code for your program? Maybe it got a bug?
09:08:00 <AnMaster> asiekierka, yes but I'm unsure it does what you want, the -e option
09:08:07 <AnMaster> asiekierka, the program tst.txt
09:08:21 <asiekierka> but when i run -e ./foo.sh (foo.sh echos hello world and blah by normal bash) it works
09:08:51 <asiekierka> http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/taxi.cpp - the taxi interpreter src
09:09:38 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I meant the source for your program written in taxi
09:11:04 <asiekierka> sends nothing to itself (localhost, nc listening)
09:11:27 <AnMaster> USER asiebot asiebot asiebot :AsieBot!
09:11:39 <asiekierka> so it doesn't show the first two lines
09:11:45 <asiekierka> and the last line (that the program ended)
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09:12:51 <AnMaster> USER asiebot asiebot asiebot :AsieBot!
09:12:52 <asiekierka> i inputted the first two lines first manually
09:13:03 <AnMaster> > 2008-10-04 11:43:37 USER rfc3092 0 * :ietf.org/rfc/rfc3092
09:13:22 <asiebot> Here you go, you see, it works! I just typed it manually!
09:13:31 <AnMaster> asiebot, using netcat directly?
09:14:41 <asiekierka> Also, there's one problem. Namely, :asiekierka!n=asiekier@xx.xxx.xxx.x shows before the true command
09:14:47 <asiekierka> And that may pwn the whole string handling in Taxi.
09:15:23 <asiekierka> But one sad thing is that i can't split the string into pieces!
09:15:36 <asiekierka> then the Post Office works as a... STACK.
09:16:16 <asiekierka> Hopefully Chop Suey and KonKat's are close together
09:16:27 <asiekierka> So it takes ~1 mile to drive from one of these to another
09:16:34 <AnMaster> doesn't your irc client have a raw log feature?
09:16:44 <AnMaster> >> :asiekierka!n=asiekier@89.108.200.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :+So it takes ~1 mile to drive from one of these to another
09:17:22 <AnMaster> >> :calvino.freenode.net PONG calvino.freenode.net :LAG1223663021092674
09:17:24 <asiekierka> So i can KonKat 27 chars together on one gallon :)
09:17:50 <AnMaster> asiebot, hm one thing maybe, does taxi buffer output?
09:17:51 <asiekierka> I just got PING :clarke.freenode.net in netcat
09:18:06 <asiekierka> AnMaster: How else you do it on Linux?
09:18:24 <asiekierka> i know it uses getline for input and cout for output
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09:18:48 <AnMaster> netcat irc.freenode.net 6667 < out-fifo > in-fifo &
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09:19:08 <AnMaster> both before the netcat command
09:19:32 <AnMaster> taxi foo.txt < in-fifo > out-fifo
09:19:47 <AnMaster> reversing order of the fifos compared with in nethack command
09:19:55 <AnMaster> asiekierka, fifios are special files
09:20:08 <asiekierka> is the & at the end necessary in netcat
09:20:18 <AnMaster> asiekierka, no you could start it in a different terminal
09:21:02 <AnMaster> asiekierka, anyway I don't know if cygwin have fifos
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09:21:52 <AnMaster> asiekierka, anyway another possibility is that some buffering is going on somewhere
09:22:50 <AnMaster> asiekierka, maybe add cout.flush(); at the end of post_office_arrive(), that should handle buffering I think
09:23:51 <AnMaster> asiekierka, that is for C not C++
09:23:58 <AnMaster> in C++ I think it is cout.flush();
09:25:50 <asiekierka> I wonder if i should add a 3-second delay in the program
09:29:07 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I set up a local listening netcat and tried to connect to it with your program
09:29:16 <AnMaster> I should have gotten output from the listen nethack
09:29:31 <asiekierka> I think it's the taxi.cpp that is broken
09:30:04 <asiekierka> Or maybe netcat doesn't use stdin/stdout, but that'd be wrong, as netcat works with foo.sh's echo, even with -e
09:30:34 <AnMaster> Listening on any address 51972
09:30:34 <AnMaster> Connection from 127.0.0.1:37495
09:30:39 <AnMaster> $ netcat 127.0.0.1 51972 -e "./taxiwrap.sh"
09:32:49 <asiekierka> nc -v -v -l -p 3200 localhost in a cmd box
09:33:07 <asiekierka> and in the cygwin box, do.sh which set the fifos if needed, ran nc to localhost -p 3200 and taxi
09:34:43 <asiekierka> yes, it seems to work with localhost(age)
09:35:48 <asiekierka> So it's a problem with the connection process
09:36:10 <asiekierka> taxi.cpp modded by me waits 2 seconds before processing
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09:37:47 <AnMaster> I'm not sure what is up with netcat
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09:40:06 <oklopol> lemme solve all your mortal problems
09:40:22 <oklopol> i'm not sure what netcat and taxi are
09:40:22 <asiekierka> We FINALLY got Netcat to cooperate with Taxi
09:40:28 <asiekierka> but we must now get them to cooperate with Freenode
09:40:33 <oklopol> but i have a faint idea about freenode
09:40:43 <oklopol> it is one of the continents of irc
09:41:20 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I need to read once after sending the first line
09:41:58 <asiekierka> I already added a 7second delay before code execution in Taxi.cpp!
09:42:26 <AnMaster> asiekierka, no it seems odd blocking things happen
09:42:32 <AnMaster> asiekierka, if you have socat, use it instead
09:43:29 <AnMaster> no idea if it works on windows/cygwin
09:45:37 <AnMaster> socat EXEC:"./taxi taxibot.txt",fdin=0,fdout=1 TCP4:irc.freenode.net:6667,crnl
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09:46:12 <AnMaster> asiekierka, no idea if reading works
09:46:58 <AnMaster> asiekierka, err crnl may be wrong
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09:47:15 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you may have to read man page
09:47:16 <asiekierka> AnMaster, without you, there wouldn't be a Taxibot
09:47:33 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and configure would take forever on cygwin
09:47:39 <AnMaster> since it is written in shell script
09:48:34 <AnMaster> crnl Converts the default line termination character NL ('\n', 0x0a) to/from CRNL ("\r\n", 0x0d0a) when writing/reading on this channel
09:48:34 <AnMaster> (example). Note: socat simply strips all CR characters.
09:49:03 <AnMaster> asiekierka, might not be needed then
09:49:26 <AnMaster> err just \n and *use* crnl you mean?
09:50:35 <asiekierka> Is there something like %1 in shell scripts?
09:51:13 <AnMaster> asiekierka, $1 is first command line parameter $2 is second one
09:51:33 <AnMaster> "$@" would expand to "taxi.exe" "test2.exe"
09:51:36 <AnMaster> "$@" would expand to "taxi.exe" "test2.txt"
09:51:54 <AnMaster> asiekierka, shell scripts are way more powerful than *.bat
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09:52:45 <AnMaster> asiekierka, irc lines are terminated with CRLF
09:52:53 <AnMaster> according to http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/chapter2.html#c2_3
09:53:04 <AnMaster> http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/chapter2.html#c2_3_1 to be specific
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10:05:11 <asiekierka> oki, it terminates after a while with socat in the new version of my taxi script
10:07:02 <asiekierka> "Making Taxi programs is just like playing with ROB the Robot. You must plan out EVERYTHING."
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10:09:23 <taxibot> NOTICE AUTH :*** Looking up your hostname... - test no. 1
10:09:44 -!- taxibot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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10:10:38 <taxibot> NOTICE AUTH :*** Looking up your hostname... - test no. 1
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10:12:52 <asiekierka> Now the one thing i need to do is comparisons.
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10:14:54 <taxibot> NOTICE AUTH :*** Looking up your hostname... - test no. 1
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10:16:21 <asiekierka> I'd need to ride to the gas station once and then though
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10:27:52 <asiekierka> Yayz. I just need to check for a uppercase P.
10:29:02 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I think there may be other data starting with P
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10:41:39 <AnMaster> By the way I notice that Taxi is a language where everything is calculated using side effects
10:42:12 <asiekierka> A ping wouldn't have #hello 18 chars after "P"!
10:43:15 <asiekierka> About pings, i don't need to worry yet
10:44:04 <asiekierka> The thing i need to worry about is gas.
10:50:08 <asiekierka> i rode a total of 386.91 miles on a message
10:50:26 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you can easily handle fuel, just take two different numbers from Starchild, go to equals corner
10:50:49 <asiekierka> But i must convert the Chop Suey character to a number then
10:51:03 <asiekierka> And Chop Suey is in the near-exact opposite corner of the city!
10:51:14 <asiekierka> i need to parse the string with Chop Suey
10:51:22 <asiekierka> i handle gas by going to the Zoom Zoom
10:51:37 <asiekierka> the distance from the Cyclone (where i am at one point) to the Zoom Zoom is one mile
10:52:19 <AnMaster> Collator Express can discard too
10:53:01 <asiekierka> I handle gas by going to the Zoom Zoom
10:53:20 <asiekierka> since after one loop, i have ~18.5 gas and ~3 credits.
10:53:50 <asiekierka> After the char processing (so where the message comes), i have 18.48 gas and 4.55 credits.
10:54:06 <asiekierka> And someone said yesterday that 0.07 credits/mile may not be enoguh
10:54:07 <AnMaster> asiekierka, at writers depot make "b" and "a" , go to Collator Express
10:54:42 <asiekierka> Konkating an 18-char string from Chop Suey already gives me a bit of money
10:54:49 <asiekierka> and then i... throw it off at riverview bridge
10:55:02 <AnMaster> asiekierka, that gives no money
10:55:36 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I just suggested a money making scheme ;P
10:56:10 <asiekierka> Well, also, it's at the point where i'd need to ride to Writer's Depot anyway
10:56:11 <AnMaster> you can make similar schemes near go more too
10:56:33 <AnMaster> asiekierka, Writer's depot is close to Collectors express too
10:56:35 <asiekierka> And do another konkat-chop suey ride to make moneyz
10:58:20 <asiekierka> Going to Writer's Depot, pick up "#hello" and "a", go to Collator Express, put down my 18-char string then a, then go to Zoom Zoom, then go to Chop Suey, KonKat the 6 next letters, compare it at Crime Lab, if they're equal go to Writer's Depot for the output message, output it, and i'm going back to the loop.
11:01:37 <asiekierka> And then, i may show the world the first Taxi bo
11:02:20 <asiekierka> Which will just be able to say "Hello, World!"
11:03:02 <AnMaster> and several backup money making schemes depending on where in the city you are
11:04:20 <AnMaster> asiekierka, really just making it say hello world isn't worth it
11:04:47 <AnMaster> asiekierka, ok and it will need to check every line for that
11:05:03 <AnMaster> what if you write a lot of short lines?
11:05:04 <asiekierka> It checks every char for "P". I'd just need to make it check for "I"
11:05:22 <asiekierka> If it doesn't find any char left, it waits for another string and splits it
11:07:12 <asiekierka> I already lost interest in the Taxibot though
11:08:12 <AnMaster> asiekierka, next one: in RUBE?
11:09:04 <AnMaster> asiekierka, sorry, tab completion
11:09:29 -!- asiebot has changed nick to notasiebot.
11:09:46 <AnMaster> asiekierka, how did you do that?
11:10:07 <AnMaster> asiekierka, where? Isn't STDIN connected to irc?
11:10:49 <asiekierka> It just doesn't want to work on my machine a while later. I also noticed i must send anything in order to keep alive. Wait
11:10:52 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you use both at once?
11:10:58 <asiekierka> Can i pong irc.freenode.net "out of nothing"?
11:11:12 <asiekierka> AnMaster, asiebot idles and i write taxibot
11:11:31 <AnMaster> asiekierka, PONG foo.freenode.net where foo is current server name
11:11:45 <AnMaster> I seem to be on calvino.freenode.net for example
11:11:55 <AnMaster> asiekierka, anyway that hack will still only work on freenode
11:12:03 <AnMaster> most other ircds want you to do it properly
11:12:14 <asiekierka> and i already lost interest in adding PING/PONG
11:12:15 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and so will freenode sometime soon
11:12:46 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and RUBE irc bot would be fun
11:12:53 <AnMaster> asiekierka, it *should* be a mess
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11:13:08 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you would need to invent your own string handling though
11:14:06 <asiekierka> I don't want to think about string handling
11:14:17 <asiekierka> I'd like char handling more at this point
11:22:40 <asiekierka> it crashes on any other message than #hello
11:23:24 <asiekierka> I'm putting it up for anyone to explore
11:23:57 <asiekierka> i'm not doing anything on it, i'm bored with it
11:24:58 <asiekierka> Also unlike a real cellular automaton, RUBE supports rudimentary output functionality; input was planned, but has never been implemented.
11:27:51 <asiekierka> RUBE original has it marked as "planned"
11:28:00 <AnMaster> ah rube II was what I meant then
11:28:38 <fungot> asiekierka: fluid-let behaves the same as on-disk, but dammit, if it isn't
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11:30:33 <oklopol> 13:24:30 asiekierka: Also unlike a real cellular automaton, RUBE supports rudimentary output functionality; input was planned, but has never been implemented. <<< a real cellular automaton has output functionality??
11:30:54 <asiekierka> a real cellular automation is meant to be outputing by viewing it
11:30:56 <oklopol> somehow i managed to read that as lacks.
11:32:51 <asiekierka> So now i can went on and make a rubeot
11:37:17 <oklopol> would be fun if you could draw with it
11:38:06 <asiekierka> But you can quine by outputting a PNG/BMP/RAW file which is equal to the contents of the piet program
11:38:38 <oklopol> yes but that's slightly less col.
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12:07:10 <AnMaster> asiekierka, hm... RUBE II should be fun to make a bot in
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12:38:43 <AnMaster> Hm considering we seem to get more and more CPU cores I think cellular automatons will be the programming languages that dominate in the future
12:39:24 <AnMaster> after all a properly designed cellular automaton would be extremely easy to parallelise
12:40:33 <AnMaster> not rube, since it is a bully automaton
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13:13:26 <oerjan> the chinese and danish may do their own swatting
13:21:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, when did it say "Nyjorsk"?
13:22:08 <olsner> oerjan: 'j' is the new 'n'
13:23:17 <oerjan> not in nynorsk it isn't
13:23:54 <oerjan> (but there is probably _some_ word where bokmål has n where nynorsk has j)
13:24:40 <oerjan> at least nynorsk tends to have more j's
13:28:51 <ehird> <asiekierka> I lost interest in Taxibot. I said.
13:28:57 <ehird> how long of an attention span does that guy have?!?!??!
13:29:17 <oerjan> could you repeat that?
13:30:20 <olsner> ehird: insufficient context...
13:30:42 <ehird> i get oerjan's joke
13:31:21 <oerjan> olsner: context = just about all of today's logs, i think
13:31:36 <olsner> well, without knowing when he gained interest there's no telling what kind of attention span we're talking about
13:31:45 <ehird> he was all hyped up about a box written in Taxi
13:31:48 <ehird> and spent ages on it blabbering
13:31:59 <olsner> well, that's longer than my average attention span
13:31:59 <ehird> he spent hours asking AnMaster all about what he needed to know to make it and such
13:32:03 <ehird> then just declared that he'd given up
13:32:07 <ehird> right in the middle of asking AnMaster questions
13:32:15 <ehird> with no justification
13:32:37 <oerjan> ehird: you mean you _don't_ have ADD? get thee out of #esoteric
13:32:51 <oerjan> attention deficit disorder
13:32:54 <ehird> asie doesn't just get bored quickly
13:32:59 <ehird> asie blabs on for ages about how his idea is jesus
13:33:03 <olsner> usually attention dies with the realization that the problem is trivial (since you have asked enough to know how to do it, it's now become trivial...) which means it's boring
13:33:06 <ehird> and then immediately
13:33:10 <ehird> says he's abandoned it
13:33:43 <oerjan> AnMaster: i don't know i guess ADHD contains ADD
13:33:56 <olsner> no-one knows exactly what's what
13:34:24 <olsner> seems it's a family of related similar problems
13:35:18 <olsner> just generally anything related to "bad" attention management (too much of it, too little of it, and usually in the wrong place)
13:35:29 <AnMaster> And I usually can stay on one project for at least a week or two
13:35:42 <AnMaster> problem is that I try to do too much at once
13:35:50 <AnMaster> having too many current projects
13:36:23 <AnMaster> I don't know what that would be called
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13:37:28 <g0bl1n> hi, need some brainfuck help
13:37:57 <oerjan> then this should be the right place
13:38:09 <AnMaster> userfriendly today was really funny heh
13:38:15 <olsner> well, if on average you get 1/n work done on n projects I'd say you don't really have a problem
13:38:32 <g0bl1n> ++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++>+++++>++++++<<<<<-]>+++.>>>>+++++.<<<<---.-.>>++.>>++.<<<+.-----------.+.---.+++++++.+++++++++++.-.>.>.--..++++++++.
13:38:38 <AnMaster> olsner, well, long term average yes
13:38:40 <oerjan> i think #(#)brainfuck is dead, isn't it? don't think i ever been there myself
13:38:44 <g0bl1n> i have this... is there anyway to optimize it ?
13:38:44 <oklopol> i usually get 1/n^2 work done on all project.
13:38:51 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++>+++++>++++++<<<<<-]>+++.>>>>+++++.<<<<---.-.>>++.>>++.<<<+.-----------.+.---.+++++++.+++++++++++.-.>.>.--..++++++++.
13:38:59 <oklopol> which is when i put some of them in my todo list
13:39:09 <ehird> wow, lots of conversations at once here
13:39:14 <g0bl1n> oklopol, so you have a huge todo list ? :)
13:39:16 <olsner> I'm probably at 1/2^n or something like that
13:39:34 <oklopol> g0bl1n: yes, in which case i usually buy a new computer and erase the old todo list! :D
13:39:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, except that takes 2 parameters iirc?
13:40:01 <g0bl1n> oklopol, but if the todo list is in the cloud... pc may even burn...
13:40:09 <AnMaster> you are the mathematician after all
13:40:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: sometimes 2, sometimes 3, so why not 1
13:40:37 <oklopol> g0bl1n: there are lots of bf textgens
13:40:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, so how do you define the one parameter version?
13:40:56 <AnMaster> g0bl1n, optimise brainfuck? heh
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13:41:18 <g0bl1n> AnMaster, no, not that geezzz :)
13:41:20 <oerjan> g0bl1n: btw that brainfuck looks like the output of old egobot's txt2bf
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13:41:29 <oklopol> time complexities in esoteric languages is an interesting subject, AnMaster
13:42:03 <oerjan> which used a java genetic program
13:42:21 <g0bl1n> oklopol, can you direct me to some of those textgens ?
13:42:23 <oklopol> oerjan: most bf textgens use that exact same output style
13:42:46 <oklopol> g0bl1n: i'll just encourage you to do it yourself :D
13:42:50 <AnMaster> g0bl1n, you could probably turn some of the longer ++++++ into loops
13:43:04 <g0bl1n> AnMaster, that's precisely what i was pretending
13:43:05 <olsner> or possibly m time spent on n projects, where m has no relation whatsoever to n
13:43:13 <oerjan> g0bl1n: that one can be run longer as a standalone program, giving somewhat better optimization
13:43:27 <oklopol> if they weren't, all <'s and >'s would be <</>>
13:44:04 <AnMaster> g0bl1n, also some (most?) bf compilers optimise the code. Such as turning ++++ into "add 4" and similiar.
13:44:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, also you could rearrange cells to get another one to do it
13:45:19 <g0bl1n> AnMaster, wouldn't that increase chars used, in this case ?
13:45:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: s/n/n,n/ in my ackermann i guess
13:46:43 <AnMaster> +++++++++++ = [-]+++[>+++<-]> Assuming you can destroy current cell and next cell.
13:46:50 <g0bl1n> ++[>++<-] increments 4 in that cell, right ?
13:47:13 <AnMaster> g0bl1n, well it will use two cells, assuming the first one is 0 at the start it will end up with 4 in the cell after
13:47:44 <AnMaster> that is assuming both cells are 0 to start with
13:48:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, true, but for higher numbers it can be shorter
13:48:17 <oklopol> yes, but there are no higher numbers :)
13:48:22 <g0bl1n> maybe i can try using less cells, and more loops ?
13:48:49 <AnMaster> g0bl1n, another idea that may be worth checking. How about wrapping downwards? Is that a shorter or longer path
13:49:01 <AnMaster> considering you have wrapping unsigned 8-bit cells in bf
13:49:08 <g0bl1n> AnMaster, sorry, didnt understand
13:49:28 <AnMaster> a single - is the same as 255 + after each other
13:49:48 <AnMaster> in all major bf implementations at least
13:50:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: all the chars output are < 128 so i doubt wrapping will help here
13:51:07 <g0bl1n> since most all of my used ascii codes are under 100, would it be good ?
13:51:52 <g0bl1n> bf is great for brain_fucking !! great :)
13:52:54 <AnMaster> g0bl1n, Sure there is nothing more you could move into initial loop?
13:53:41 <AnMaster> apart from that It seems all +++++ or ----- sequences would be longer written as loops
13:53:52 <oerjan> i wonder if switching around the order of the cells might give a shorter program, because the text contains all upper case, then all lower case, then all numbers
13:53:58 <g0bl1n> seems so , doesnt it ?
13:54:20 <oerjan> and the >>>> used to pass between two different upper case cells seems a bit long
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13:55:02 <AnMaster> g0bl1n, also what does the message it printed mean?
13:56:00 <g0bl1n> this is an event, happening in November, a gathering of developers
13:56:36 <g0bl1n> as internet servide provider
13:56:51 <AnMaster> yes, but why would they want to see brainf*ck
13:57:15 <g0bl1n> someone posted an idea to convert it to bf :)
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13:57:59 <AnMaster> btw, why is it called "golfing". Seems pretty strange
13:58:28 <ehird> you get to the hole (target program)
13:58:31 <g0bl1n> golfing as, the least chars one can get, like golf
13:58:32 <ehird> in as litle puts as possible
13:59:05 <ehird> -- http://www.golfscript.com/golfscript/
13:59:13 <ehird> but yeah that confused me too
13:59:35 <AnMaster> I'm no huge golf fan so didn't think of that initially
13:59:47 <g0bl1n> the thing is, we all user severall languages, so what about reducing it to a least common denominator ? bf :)
14:00:54 <AnMaster> g0bl1n, nah, something like lambda calculus with output would be equally low common denominator but incompatible with bf
14:01:07 <ehird> I like how anagolf steals the ICFP reward sentences in its language rankings:
14:01:09 <ehird> [[Ruby is the programming tool of choice for discriminating golfers.
14:01:09 <ehird> GolfScript is a fine programming tool for many courses.]]
14:02:04 <g0bl1n> ehird, I'd say RoR, not Ruby itself :)
14:02:29 <ehird> Because everything is a web application.
14:03:31 <g0bl1n> RoR is becoming a no brainer. There are lots of RoR programmers that can barelly produce ruby code
14:03:57 <g0bl1n> how can i represent 2^6 in bf ?
14:04:16 <ehird> g0bl1n: That is not a good thing, btw.
14:04:25 <ehird> And RoR is pretty awful as web frameworks go. :-P
14:04:28 <ehird> As for 2^6, not sure
14:05:08 <oerjan> g0bl1n: see http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck_constants
14:05:48 <g0bl1n> oerjan, that is cool, ty !!
14:06:39 <ehird> oerjan: why not link tothe esolangs.org version?
14:07:06 <ehird> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/kareha.pl/1217593391/l50 <- "befunge compiler"
14:07:44 <oerjan> i read it as esoteric.voxelperfect.net myself
14:09:48 <ehird> the compiler just bundles the interp
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14:12:13 <oerjan> oh there is an RSS feed for the forum
14:12:21 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
14:12:33 <oerjan> maybe i can actually get to read it regularly then
14:14:22 <ehird> oerjan: Nobody ever posts.
14:14:40 <ehird> Thread #5 is from -06-. (Not emphasis, incomplete date format.,)
14:14:41 <oerjan> not often, but sometimes
14:14:59 <ehird> Thread 10 is from 2007-10-.
14:15:42 <oerjan> and RSS might help remind me that it exists, and if everyone did that perhaps there would be more posts
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14:16:18 <oepy> ['__call__', '__class__', '__delattr__', '__dict__', '__doc__', '__get__', '__getattribute__', '__hash__', '__init__', '__module__', '__name__', '__new__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__setattr__', '__str__', 'func_closure', 'func_code', 'func_defaults', 'func_dict', 'func_doc', 'func_globals', 'func_name']
14:16:39 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals
14:16:39 <oepy> {'__builtins__': <module '__builtin__' (built-in)>, '__name__': '__main__', '__file__': 'onelineesobot.py', '__doc__': None}
14:16:41 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__im'+'port__']
14:16:42 <oepy> KeyError: '__import__'
14:16:49 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__']['__im'+'port__']
14:16:50 <oepy> TypeError: 'module' object is unsubscriptable
14:16:58 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattr__('__im'+'port__')
14:16:59 <oepy> AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute '__getattr__'
14:17:04 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')
14:17:05 <oepy> <built-in function __import__>
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14:20:30 * oerjan hopes it will work better than the OOTS feed
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14:24:42 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')
14:24:42 <oepy> <built-in function __import__>
14:24:47 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')('sys')
14:24:47 <oepy> <module 'sys' (built-in)>
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14:25:45 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')
14:25:46 <oepy> <built-in function __import__>
14:25:48 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')('sys')
14:25:48 <oepy> <module 'sys' (built-in)>
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14:26:49 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')
14:26:49 <oepy> NameError: global name 'f' is not defined
14:27:33 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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14:27:44 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')
14:27:45 <oepy> NameError: global name 'f' is not defined
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14:30:02 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')
14:30:02 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:30:36 -!- oepy has joined.
14:30:37 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')
14:30:38 <oepy> NameError: global name 'f' is not defined
14:31:33 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:31:42 -!- oepy has joined.
14:31:43 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')
14:31:44 <oepy> TypeError: f() takes exactly 4 arguments (3 given)
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14:32:47 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')
14:32:48 <oepy> <built-in function __import__>
14:32:51 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')('sys')
14:32:52 <oepy> <module 'sys' (built-in)>
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14:33:20 <ehird> *epy unset.func_globals['__builtins__'].__getattribute__('__im'+'port__')('sys')
14:33:21 <oepy> <module 'sys' (built-in)>
14:33:47 <oepy> <built-in function __import__>
14:33:55 <ehird> *epy __import__('a')
14:33:56 <oepy> ImportError: No module named a
14:35:14 <ehird> *epy ((lambda: 2)(), 3)[1]
14:35:22 <ehird> *epy ((lambda: 2)(), 3)[1]
14:35:53 <oepy> <built-in function __import__>
14:35:56 <oepy> <built-in function __import__>
14:35:59 <ehird> *epy __import__('a')
14:36:00 <oepy> ImportError: No module named a
14:36:03 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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14:36:17 <ehird> *epy __import__('a')
14:36:18 <oepy> ImportError: No module named a
14:36:43 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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14:37:16 <ehird> *epy __import__('a')
14:37:16 <oepy> TypeError: vars() argument must have __dict__ attribute
14:37:27 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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14:37:47 <ehird> *epy __import__('a')
14:37:47 <oepy> ImportError: No module named a
14:38:10 <ehird> *epy dir(__import__)
14:38:11 <oepy> ['__call__', '__class__', '__cmp__', '__delattr__', '__doc__', '__getattribute__', '__hash__', '__init__', '__module__', '__name__', '__new__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__self__', '__setattr__', '__str__']
14:38:19 <oepy> TypeError: compile() takes at least 3 arguments (1 given)
14:38:23 <ehird> *epy compile('a', '', 'expr')
14:38:23 <oepy> ValueError: compile() arg 3 must be 'exec' or 'eval' or 'single'
14:38:30 <ehird> *epy dir(compile('a', '', 'eval'))
14:38:31 <oepy> ['__class__', '__cmp__', '__delattr__', '__doc__', '__getattribute__', '__hash__', '__init__', '__new__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__setattr__', '__str__', 'co_argcount', 'co_cellvars', 'co_code', 'co_consts', 'co_filename', 'co_firstlineno', 'co_flags', 'co_freevars', 'co_lnotab', 'co_name', 'co_names', 'co_nlocals', 'co_stacksize', 'co_varnames']
14:43:56 <oepy> AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'fail'
14:44:13 <ehird> oerjan: trying to fix this
14:44:19 <ehird> right now you can wipe my home dir
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14:48:27 <oerjan> what i need is a proper Death Ray Satellite, so that i can wipe your _home_
14:49:21 <ehird> then i will eat your home.
15:09:17 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Sukoshi is *firmly* a Lisp girl, anyways..
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01:29:48 <comex> You know what I said about pypy? Scratch that, the stuff they already have is already pretty cool ...
01:30:05 <comex> RPython programs run nearly as far as c, although the compiling takes forever
01:31:12 <comex> (If only the translator could translate itself... I don't think it's rpython though. But if the translator can get the JIT to be fast someday, and a fast JITted pypy runs the translator... well then that's pretty amazing)
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03:07:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hehe.
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03:30:22 <ihope> I will now create an esoteric programming language called Colorful Monkeys.
03:30:41 <ihope> It will be very theoretically interesting, I'm sure.
03:30:51 <ihope> It might even be Turing-complete, if you can imagine that.
03:32:26 <ihope> I just may be too lazy to put this on the wiki right now, so I'll describe it here instead.
03:33:10 <ihope> Memory consists of an infinite grid of spaces. Each space may be empty, or it may contain a red, green or blue monkey. One monkey is the current monkey.
03:35:59 <ihope> Each step, the interpreter finds a path that starts at the current monkey and visits every other monkey exactly once, does not visit the same color monkey twice in a row, and does not return to the current monkey; this path should be as short as practically possible.
03:36:28 * ihope frowns at the unfortunate placements of "and" in that sentence.
03:40:24 <ihope> Then the first monkey on the path becomes the new current monkey, and moves either toward or away from the old current monkey: red moves toward green and away from blue, green moves toward blue and away from red, blue moves toward red and away from green. The monkey moves one step in a cardinal direction, preferring horizontal movement to vertical movement if they would otherwise result in him being the same distance from the old curren
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03:42:57 <ihope> Monkey collisions cause undefined behavior. Like with MiniMAX, the interpreter can take advantage of this to do something nice.
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04:02:21 <ihope> Like running BF commands...
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04:16:12 <optbot> immibis: less complicated code, less instructions to execute....fewer instructions,,,faster run...
04:16:19 <optbot> immibis: (`cuz you _know_ prime numba's are sex-ay!)
04:16:27 <optbot> immibis: but I generally prefix gcc to C programs
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05:40:20 <optbot> immibis: or make it clear that you're being facetious
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07:42:45 <oerjan> immibis: optbot doesn't do any actual commands afaik
07:42:46 <optbot> oerjan: it's certainly different.
07:42:55 <oerjan> it converses, and changes topic
07:43:00 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | that ensures that Python no longer has to keep track of the functions local state..
07:43:09 <oerjan> ok that's the only command
07:44:11 <oerjan> i think it's ehird, although the first 'o' is supposedly named after me
07:56:38 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | it can..
07:56:43 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | - your _darcs dir has the whole history, isn't that nice.
07:56:54 <immibis> did you remember to add flood protection?
07:57:09 <optbot> immibis: and HTML is not just strings
07:57:32 <immibis> [19:42] <oerjan> it converses, and changes topic <-- you call that conversing?
07:57:36 <oerjan> well it only does one thing per speaker action
07:57:47 <oerjan> so if it's flooding, so are you
07:58:45 <oerjan> although fungot has flood protection to prevent you from putting the bots against each other
07:58:46 <fungot> oerjan: ( just annotate the paste: it'll keep everything together.
07:58:51 <fungot> immibis: heh. i think you misspelled ' fnord.
07:58:55 <fungot> optbot: you are spamming. toboge, i said my theory is that i must stop saying fnord, you can
07:58:56 <fungot> optbot: goog idea... ha_bf2c makes things much easier in this way
07:58:56 <optbot> fungot: may even take too long for you to be able to wait
07:58:56 <fungot> optbot: what neighborhood?
07:58:57 <optbot> fungot: 0x01 can also escape 0x01
07:58:57 <fungot> optbot: bawden is a clever fellow that's what has happened to sarahbot
07:58:57 <optbot> fungot: that's pretty funky pixel-art there
07:59:25 <optbot> immibis: all languages are equally difficult, says i!
07:59:25 <optbot> fungot: thought about it, yes.. did it: no :)
07:59:39 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
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08:00:11 <optbot> immibis: <tusho> - Take the second and third characters of the input with 'H.' appended to it.
08:00:22 <optbot> fungot: experience shows that I am shit at that sort of puzzle
08:01:00 <oerjan> fungot is written in befunge btw
08:01:00 <fungot> oerjan: i think i will write a scheme to java
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08:09:08 <immibis> !regex deeohteedeeohteedeeohtee hi replace ^echo hi
08:09:19 <immibis> !regex deeohteedeeohteedeeohtee .*hi.* replace ^echo hi
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08:09:53 <immibis> evidently fungot doesn't have flood protection
08:09:53 <fungot> immibis: i'm afraid it's rather difficult to get computers to do non-constructive logical proofs, or something
08:10:10 <oerjan> not against commands apparently
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08:11:22 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but i can type :D.
08:11:22 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ciao.
08:11:23 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Do you want the physics behind it, or just the math and comp-sci part?.
08:11:24 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | (slightly modified from 18.05.07).
08:11:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i also vaguely recall it has different levels you can set, and some features are disabled at lower levels.
08:11:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | did something go wrong?.
08:11:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and if you do from hook into funge space code, well things would be uggly.
08:11:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | for a while, I thought you were looking for IO actions..
08:11:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | they're sin tacks...
08:11:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | with _.
08:11:41 <immibis> so it can't get flooded like that, anyway...
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08:17:06 * oerjan suspects a hypercaffeinated monkey
08:17:39 <oerjan> on the internet, it could be a dog
08:18:52 <immibis> note it has problems with ping due to the TDWTF-worthy (TM) code I wrote ages ago. It gets lots of ping timeouts
08:18:56 <Hypercaffeinated> Usage: !c [--target={NICK|CHANNEL}] [-T] [-d] [-e] [--other=DRINKTYPE] [-mMILKTYPE] [-sNUMBER_OF_SUGARS] [-zSIZE]
08:18:57 <Hypercaffeinated> -mMILKTYPE milktype can be none, hot, cold, frth, agnet, agnetic, or chocolate or a user defined string
08:18:58 <Hypercaffeinated> --target={NICK|CHANNEL} Give the coffee to the specified nick/channel
08:19:00 <Hypercaffeinated> -sNUMBER_OF_SUGARS Give a negative value for an infinite number
08:19:03 <immibis> (note to self: condense help)
08:19:04 <Hypercaffeinated> Send the specified MESSAGE to the specified NICK or CHANNEL (if a channel, the bot must be in that channel)
08:19:49 <oerjan> (note to immibis: condense help something drastic)
08:19:55 <Jiminy_Cricket> Blah, killer mutant sea cucumbers are a lot cooler than bots
08:20:44 <immibis> btw its called hypercaffeinated because it makes coffee
08:20:46 <oerjan> i'm afraid the best attempt so far at making sea cucumbers sentient took more than 500 million years
08:21:22 * Hypercaffeinated is making a coffee in an office mug with cold milk for this channel
08:21:23 * Hypercaffeinated gives everyone in this channel a coffee in an office mug with cold milk
08:21:34 <oerjan> oh wait that was not a sea cucumber
08:21:55 <oerjan> oh no, it's _that_ bot
08:22:26 <immibis> i should try to not annoy anyone for 24 hours.
08:25:47 -!- Hypercaffeinated has changed nick to coffeebot.
08:31:44 <fizzie> immibis: Yes, no flood protection at all in fungot. Still, I don't think it has yet excess-flooded. optbot has some sort of delay for messages, though.
08:31:44 <optbot> fizzie: if that wasn't enough, liberal printf sprinkling in the code helps
08:31:44 <fungot> fizzie: i guess what theblunderbuss suggested
08:32:01 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
08:32:01 <fungot> fizzie: i didn't have gdbm installed?
08:32:24 <fizzie> fungot: Uh... what do you want gdbm for?
08:32:25 <fungot> fizzie: so the name integer also specifies a fnord of the list
08:32:48 <fungot> immibis: that doesn't explain my problem. it set-car!'d the car of a list
08:33:06 <immibis> fungot: um have you been looking at car magazines again?
08:33:07 <fungot> immibis: iirc with floating points tend to have their stock price display on my home systems...
08:35:31 <fizzie> Not too coherent chatter today.
08:36:04 <oerjan> fungot: do you want gdbm to be more coherent?
08:36:04 <fungot> oerjan: can you think of fungot?"
08:36:22 <oerjan> fungot: ah so it's to become self-aware?
08:36:22 <fungot> oerjan: it creates freedom of choice
08:36:31 <immibis> gdbm needs to be more self-aware.
08:36:37 <immibis> fungot: gdbm needs to be more self-aware.
08:36:38 <fungot> immibis: it can generate so fast code and yet be tolerable to deal with
08:38:04 <immibis> fungot: code is not snakes, ffs.
08:38:04 <fungot> immibis: heh. i've just read a fnord into memory, sticking the data section last, and just include " scheme48.h"
08:38:35 <immibis> fungot: ^bf +++++++++++++.---.
08:38:36 <fungot> immibis: is it just that? sure, just paste it here
08:39:38 <fungot> ............................... !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
08:40:07 <oerjan> oh it does > 127 chars
08:40:31 <fungot> ~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:987654321 ...
08:40:59 <toBogE> >?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnop
08:41:06 <toBogE> >?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnop
08:41:16 <toBogE> >?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnop
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08:42:35 <oerjan> fizzie: what about just censoring 10 and 13?
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08:42:59 <immibis> oerjan: it does, did you look at the output?
08:43:09 <fizzie> Yes, but it does everything <32.
08:43:14 <fizzie> You can't do CTCP with it right now.
08:44:26 <fizzie> Maybe I could just do 10 and 13, although the control characters aren't very pretty when output.
08:44:36 <oerjan> of course +c censors some others
08:45:34 <fizzie> What's with the unicode issues it has, anyway... it should just repeat them bytes back like they came in.
08:46:01 <fizzie> ^bf ,[.,]!it's a lambda: λ <- yay, a lambda!
08:46:01 <fungot> it's a lambda: .. <- yay, a lambda!
08:46:06 <oerjan> yes... did you censor > 127 previously?
08:46:26 <fungot> .. e i a .. .. .. e i a .. ..
08:46:40 <fizzie> I didn't. It might be a "characters are input as signed numbers" thing, which would leave the cells to be <0.
08:46:48 <fizzie> While the normal +- manipulation does mod-256.
08:47:10 <oerjan> hm that means you could fix it with a +- extra?
08:47:32 <oerjan> ^def echo2 bf >,[.>,+-]<[<]+32[.>]
08:47:40 <fungot> . e i a æ å.. e i a æ å
08:48:03 <oerjan> ^def echo2 bf >,+-[.>,+-]<[<]+32[.>]
08:48:06 <fungot> æ e i a æ å.æ e i a æ å
08:48:37 <oerjan> except why the . instead of space?
08:49:21 <oerjan> ah if ] tests mod 256 but it's not _actually_ a 0?
08:49:23 <immibis> ^bf +[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+]
08:50:09 <oerjan> ^def echo2 bf >,+-[.>,+-]<[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.>]
08:50:16 <fungot> æ e i a æ å æ e i a æ å
08:52:02 <fizzie> ^bf +++++[>----------<-]>.-------------------.
08:52:38 <fizzie> I'll have to try and remember to add a 91g% in the input handling.
08:53:10 <fizzie> Or actually a 91g+91g%, since % doesn't like negative numbers that much.
08:54:11 <fizzie> (I keep the constant 256 in (9, 1) when doing brainfuck, so I don't have to do 88+:* or anything like that.)
08:55:08 <fizzie> 256-50, 256-50-19 => 206, 187 => 0xce 0xbb, the UTF-8 for U+03BB.
09:01:27 <fizzie> ^bf ,[.,]!it's a lambda: λ <- yay, a lambda!
09:01:27 <fungot> it's a lambda: λ <- yay, a lambda!
09:01:35 <fizzie> Okay, no need for workarounds any more.
09:07:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | some funky UK os.
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09:23:49 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul echo2
09:25:46 <fizzie> Empty strings probably count as "no output".
09:26:24 <fizzie> Anyway, it'll be a couple of magnitudes faster when I get that stand-alone interpreter fungotized.
09:26:24 <fungot> fizzie: what's the name of
09:27:50 <oklopol> there's nothing sexier than slow computation
09:27:55 <oklopol> so slow you can do it faster yourself
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09:34:45 <fizzie> Yes, it runs out of time for just about anything.
09:35:21 <fizzie> Wow, _six_ characters!
09:35:49 <fizzie> It goes up to eleven, uh, I mean, eight.
09:36:04 <fizzie> Wait, I messeded up. :p
09:36:25 <fizzie> Broke down when writing the output.
09:37:03 <fizzie> Seems to depend on the characters, even.
09:37:12 <oklopol> if only the time limit wasn't *that* short, you cannot do *any* flow control with that
09:37:57 <oklopol> but small ascii code shouldn't help with befunge
09:38:08 <fizzie> The Underload interpreter is brainfuck.
09:38:12 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>]
09:38:16 <oklopol> well then that's kinda obvious
09:39:56 <oerjan> it would be too awesome if oklopol were blind
09:47:01 <fizzie> Let's see what I broke.
09:47:10 <fizzie> ^bf +.>+++++++++++++++[>++++>++++++>+++++++>++>+++++<<<<<-]>+++++.++.>------.>>>--.++++++.-.<++.<.++++++++++.>.<<+++++++++++++.+++++++++++.---.>+++.<----.<<.
09:47:55 <fizzie> I think +c might filter ^G out.
09:49:35 <oklopol> this i reverse-engineered from ^G, yes
09:49:38 <fizzie> ^def ctcp bf +.,[.,]+.
09:49:42 <fizzie> ^ctcp ACTION is alive!
09:50:53 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
09:51:22 <fizzie> Doesn't the CTCP PING echo whatever was sent?
09:51:57 <oerjan> 10:51 fungot [n=fungot@momus.zem.fi] requested CTCP PING from #esoteric: fungot
09:51:58 <fungot> oerjan: there was a brain?
09:52:08 <fizzie> Oh, it does, but since it's NOTICE it won't respond.
09:52:45 <fizzie> oklopol's client sure is strange, though: it responded with "PING 1223801452" instead of "PING fungot" like everyone else.
09:53:08 <oklopol> i have the most popular irc client in the world.
09:53:14 <fizzie> CTCP replies are sent as 'NOTICE' messages, not 'PRIVMSG's.
09:53:56 <fizzie> Which is actually according to the spec: all automatic replies to PRIVMSG messages should be sent as NOTICEs -- and no automatic replices should be sent for NOTICEs ever -- in order to avoid loops.
09:54:15 <fizzie> No-one writes ircbots like that, though, since the notices look so ugly.
09:55:04 <fizzie> Although I think ircii converted privmsg->notice when a script tried to reply to a privmsg.
09:56:08 <oklopol> sHOULD i wATCH aNOTHER ePISODE oF sOUTHERN pARCKK??
09:57:26 <fungot> You should DONATE ALL YOUR MONEY TO ME.
09:58:22 <oklopol> but then how would i buy my porridges :<<<
09:58:31 <fungot> Then I will use it to buy BEER AND HOOKERS.
09:58:37 <fizzie> fungot: Wait, that was not part of the deal!
09:58:45 <oerjan> you'll have to make do with bark porridge
09:58:52 <oklopol> i have to read about a hundred pages today, so i guess i'll start doing that
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11:05:22 <oklopol> i actually *did* watch another episode
11:05:35 <oklopol> this time i won't watch if the bot says no
11:05:56 <oklopol> but what if it says nothing at all... that's a good question
11:06:11 <oklopol> i'll take that as a yes, because i'm feeling lazy
11:07:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, I think it timed out?
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11:07:59 <fizzie> It got confused again when I said that 'not part of the deal'.
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11:08:11 <fizzie> I really need to debug that thing.
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11:08:42 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
11:08:49 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul
11:09:03 <fizzie> 'bool' is not a brainfuck command.
11:09:27 <fizzie> Yes, the help text needs updating.
11:10:01 <fizzie> I think I'll first try to fungotize that underload interp so that I can add that to ^help too. Not that it's hard to modify the help text or anything.
11:10:02 <fungot> fizzie: there are __ printab_e characters in ascii? iirc, scheme doesn't use t and nil
11:10:28 <AnMaster> btw what is the C++ish way to generate random numbers? Just cstdlib and rand() or?
11:11:01 <AnMaster> or something like std::random<int> ?
11:11:09 <AnMaster> (or whatever madness they decided)
11:12:04 <AnMaster> fungot, scheme uses #t and #f for boolean, but the rest of that line made no sense
11:12:05 <fungot> AnMaster: that's true :p. google did indeed have sufficient context
11:15:40 <fizzie> Probably just #include <cstdlib> and std::rand().
11:16:39 <AnMaster> another thing what was the syntax for parameters with default values now again?
11:17:13 <fizzie> The standard one, just "=default" after the parameter name.
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11:20:39 <fizzie> If I recall correctly the default values need to specified only in the declaration seen by the calling code. So int func(int param=42); in the headers, but int func(int param) { ... } is enough for the actual definition.
11:21:58 <fizzie> And it has the usual common-sense restrictions for positional parameters with default values; no parameters without default values allowed after some default-valued parameters and so on.
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11:22:26 <fizzie> ^def ctcp bf +.,[.,]+.
11:22:52 <fizzie> ^ctcp ACTION forgot the ^ctcp command with that previous crash. :/
11:22:52 * fungot forgot the ^ctcp command with that previous crash. :/
11:31:20 <AnMaster> hm I need to do something portable for srand(), gettimeofday() is posix only, time(NULL) would return same seed for a whole second, and this program may very well be run several times per second
11:31:41 <AnMaster> needs to be portable C++ in fact
11:32:35 <fizzie> Ask the user to provide a seed. :p
11:33:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, blergh, not really an option :/ Won't interact with user 99% of the time
11:33:31 <fizzie> Take a command-line argument, then. :p
11:33:40 <fizzie> There really isn't many portable things you could use; getting process ids and such is inherently even less portable.
11:34:24 <fizzie> Although there's clock() -- it's not _guaranteed_ to have any better resolution than time() but it just might.
11:34:46 <fizzie> And since it's "processor time used" it's a bit unrandom at the start of the program.
11:35:04 <fizzie> (Though not even the "processor time used" is part of the standard.)
11:35:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, considering this is C++, isn't there anything in the STL stuff one could use?
11:35:52 <fizzie> Not that I know, but I'm not really a C++ person. STL is mostly containers and such fluff.
11:42:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, is there any portable way to test for gettimeofday() hm?
11:45:51 <fizzie> Of course not; your build system probably needs to do it.
11:47:16 <AnMaster> "POSIX.1-2008 marks gettimeofday() as obsolete."
11:47:33 <AnMaster> can't find what they want instead
11:49:11 <AnMaster> oh my seems clock_gettime() is what they want
12:29:43 <AnMaster> btw I found that 64-bit Linux at least will have no issues with unix time wrapping in 2038, time_t is 64-bit here
13:01:58 <Asztal> awwww, my befunge interpreter keeps printing hearts at me :)
13:12:09 <ehird> yes, optbot is "oerjan's terrible puns bot" but I rearranged the letters after 5,0000000 typos
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13:14:22 <ehird> immibis was bot abusing
13:14:37 <ehird> Could fizzie/someone ban CO2Games and immibis if they keep this up?
13:14:44 <ehird> I don't recall them doing any non-bot-abuse-related thing lately.
13:15:06 <ehird> 00:18:20 <immibis> hypercaffeinated is a bot
13:15:06 <ehird> 00:18:26 <immibis> another one
13:15:12 <ehird> ^ Two lines that made me unhappy.
13:15:48 <ehird> 00:21:55 <oerjan> oh no, it's _that_ bot
13:15:48 <ehird> 00:22:06 * oerjan shivers and remembers
13:15:57 <ehird> 00:22:26 <immibis> i should try to not annoy anyone for 24 hours.
13:16:00 <ehird> How about forever.
13:16:04 <ehird> 00:31:44 <fizzie> immibis: Yes, no flood protection at all in fungot. Still, I don't think it has yet excess-flooded. optbot has some sort of delay for messages, though.
13:16:04 <optbot> ehird: self.say("OMG " + frame + " REPEATS")
13:16:05 <fungot> ehird: i want a garbage collector.
13:19:05 <oerjan> i suggest we put a strict maximal limit on bot usage in this channel, and ban everyone who passes it. that way i can laugh when ehird is one of the first to be banned.
13:19:34 <ehird> oerjan: I suggest the bot owners ban people who abuse.
13:19:38 <ehird> If immibis repeats last night again, optbot will ignore him permanently.
13:19:42 <optbot> ehird: you could just loop from 2 to sqrt_of_n
13:19:46 <ehird> oh, right, yes i could
13:20:08 <oklopol> optbot: we've made naive prime-checkers before.
13:20:42 <oerjan> ehird: well my point is that i don't think it is any less annoying when people abuse their own bots
13:20:52 <ehird> oerjan: When have I abused my own bot recently?
13:20:53 <oerjan> and that includes testing
13:21:09 <ehird> I don't get what you're accusing me of.
13:21:22 <oklopol> ehird: you can get pretty spammy.
13:21:33 <ehird> oklopol: [citation needed], please
13:21:44 <oklopol> i can try to search the logs
13:21:49 <oerjan> when one is testing something, one doesn't notice how many lines fly by
13:22:12 <ehird> oerjan: i'd like some kind of idea of what you're accusing me of as a recent event
13:23:17 <oklopol> ehird: actually i'm not sure how to search for generic spam.
13:23:50 <oklopol> because i don't remember a specific instance, i'm just pretty sure i've seen you botflood when testing
13:24:11 <oklopol> for instance when we were doing that topic ca thing
13:24:32 <oklopol> and when i was testing oklotalk; of course, in both these instances, i'm the main spammer
13:25:07 <oklopol> but i'm fairly sure you were quite spammy too, on both occasions
13:25:42 <oklopol> oklotalk may be a bad example, you may just have run like two lines, and also i'm not sure you spammed at all on *this* channel, when the topic thing happened
13:25:51 <ehird> that was in esoteric-blah
13:25:54 <oklopol> ehird: yes, it ran 110 on the topic
13:25:56 <ehird> but i did it in esoteric recently
13:26:00 <oklopol> ehird: some of it was here too
13:26:01 <ehird> that only took like
13:26:10 <ehird> everyone was participating
13:26:13 <ehird> and asking questions about it
13:26:33 <oklopol> i dunno, i'm just trying to help oerjan out
13:27:18 <ehird> oerjan: no that's stream of conciousness.
13:28:24 <oklopol> i do think ehird has done some serious spamming when testing things. but i cannot recall a specific instance, so i'm kinda doubting myself here
13:28:33 <oklopol> oerjan: could you show me an instance?
13:28:47 <oklopol> i can only recall myself spamming like hell, when testing stuff
13:28:57 <ehird> my bots actually just implant memories into your mind
13:29:01 <ehird> they implanted the memory of spamming
13:29:05 <ehird> removed specific instances
13:29:15 <oklopol> i like coding in public, faster to code when people see you fail
13:29:27 <oklopol> "oh god i failed gotta fix fasttttt"
13:29:43 <ehird> i hate coding late at night
13:29:43 <oerjan> actually the point is we like to spam, and would like ehird to stop complaining about it :D
13:29:47 <ehird> i always rush and fuck things up
13:30:06 <ehird> oerjan: actually, fizzie and others were annoyed by CO2Games too
13:30:32 <oklopol> i like the fast, ugly, hackery kinda coding the most, you get results slowly, but the process is fast
13:30:56 <ehird> i start off quick&hacky
13:31:01 <ehird> then when it gets bigger
13:31:06 <ehird> i make it slightly more 'managed'
13:31:12 <ehird> until it's fully done but i can still read it
13:31:13 <oerjan> the ops don't count they have an easy annoyance chip implanted when they get the privileges
13:31:33 <ehird> oerjan: no, but when fizzie asked wtf that was about people were annoyed too in reply
13:32:01 <ehird> meanwhile http://unicodesnowmanforyou.com/
13:32:06 <AnMaster> <Asztal> awwww, my befunge interpreter keeps printing hearts at me :) <-- heh?
13:34:26 <ehird> unicode snowman for you!
13:34:29 <AnMaster> a circle segment right at the top of the page?
13:34:49 <ehird> no, that's because you don't have a font with the full unicode character set.
13:35:03 <ehird> No unicode snowman for you. ☃
13:35:22 <AnMaster> and it looked like the lower part of that symbol
13:35:23 <ehird> Meanwhile: http://☃.net/
13:35:24 <oerjan> does _anyone_ have such a font, really?
13:35:41 <ehird> it's called code2000
13:35:52 <ehird> dejavu is not a c omplete set
13:36:04 <ehird> code2000 and its addon is
13:36:22 <ehird> but not as in speech
13:36:31 <ehird> but... without the share part
13:36:39 <ehird> something like that
13:36:48 <ehird> lol, "shareware demo font"?
13:36:52 <ehird> http://www.code2000.net/#dn
13:37:06 <AnMaster> ehird, is there a more complete version?
13:37:21 <ehird> code200{0,1,2} should be a complete unicode set
13:37:25 <ehird> code2000 is, really
13:37:32 <ehird> code200{1,2} assign some undefined characters
13:37:35 <ehird> to miscellaneous stuff
13:38:03 <oerjan> they are not all undefined
13:38:20 <ehird> but yah: "The Code2000 download has been freely available and fully functional all along. It is an inexpensive shareware, though, and registration fees are much needed and much appreciated. "
13:38:27 <ehird> by shareware he means "it works fully, but plz givs me moneys"
13:38:40 <ehird> Users are required to register the font after a “reasonable” evaluation period if they like the font and continue to use it. However, determining what is “reasonable” is left for the user to decide.]]
13:39:56 <ehird> i like the guy's attitude, though
13:40:02 <ehird> as in, only register if you can reasonably afford it and such
13:47:29 <Asztal> AnMaster: it was printing extraneous \x03 due to a problem with y, which my terminal shows as ♥
13:48:18 <AnMaster> Asztal, what language is it coded in?
13:48:48 <Asztal> nowadays I'd probably choose something else though
13:49:06 <Deewiant> he probably meant the interpreter
13:49:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://asztal.net/projects/befunge98
13:50:05 <Deewiant> Asztal: what would you choose these days then?
13:50:23 <Asztal> it's not actually called sponge now, anyway, I think I decided on stinkhorn when given the list of fungi
13:52:04 <Asztal> Deewiant: I would probably try C# or Haskell, maybe D because of it's metaprogramming abilities
13:52:11 <AnMaster> "The befunge-98 interpreter is currently all written in C++, and compiles under Visual C++ or G++. I currently have no plans to extend support to other languages."?
13:52:32 <Asztal> That means no wrappers for python etc.
13:52:35 <Deewiant> Asztal: all good choices, I don't have to complain to you ;-)
13:52:58 <AnMaster> Asztal, wrappers for python? Huh?
13:53:05 <AnMaster> also there is one in haskell at least
13:53:10 <Asztal> It supports trefunge, though I wouldn't be too trusting with the funge-space implementation :)
13:53:27 <AnMaster> Asztal, how would a wrapper for python be useful?
13:53:36 <AnMaster> it is a freestanding program, not a library
13:54:24 <AnMaster> wait are you coding it mainly for Windows!?
13:54:26 <Asztal> yes, but it shouldn't be terribly difficult to change that if I wanted to (which I don't)
13:54:44 <Asztal> I've tested it on linux, and it does work
13:54:54 <AnMaster> Asztal, "HRTI — with microsecond accuracy on windows"
13:55:36 <Deewiant> ah, that was a quote from there
13:55:45 <AnMaster> also it can be done on windows iirc, "GetPerformanceCounterExExEx" or something probably
13:56:28 <AnMaster> Did they leave them off for once?
13:56:45 <AnMaster> also a pitty HRTI doesn't allow nano second
13:56:54 <AnMaster> because POSIX can do that with clock_gettime
13:57:06 <oklopol> AnMaster: right, true, i guess it just means we're not positive on the axis of "hardly", so we're prolly either neutrally or softly
13:57:10 <AnMaster> would have to ifdef it still since it is an optional posix one
13:58:36 <AnMaster> CLOCK_MONOTONIC would probably be best, which is even more optional, so CLOCK_REALTIME (which is only as optional as clock_gettime) as a fallback
13:58:47 <AnMaster> then gettimeofday() as a second level fallback
13:59:05 <AnMaster> but since HRTI doesn't go down to nanoseconds there is no point in doing that :(
13:59:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, what happened to the other h?
14:00:08 <oerjan> was taken by an urricane
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14:45:15 <ehird> On #esoteric today: AnMaster recoils after learning that something is related to Windows.
14:45:28 <ehird> Hastily bombards person with how to immediately switch to a POSIX-compliant OS.
14:51:46 <ehird> Deewiant: yes, an in-depth special on this rare event
15:07:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and voila.
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18:23:30 <oklopol> also i like your nick better like that, without the capital
18:31:51 <AnMaster> ehird, does the bouncer log /msg and display them when you ais connects next time?
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18:32:17 <ehird> AnMaster: I wonder how many times I'm going to have to point you to the day of the week before you realise to stop asking me this question every Sunday?
18:32:26 <ehird> I think I've done it about 3-5 times now.
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18:32:30 <AnMaster> ehird, and the second question?
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18:32:39 <AnMaster> also he is sometimes here on Sunday
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18:34:16 <fizzie> One of the network cables I have doesn't really have that thing that goes click, so it got loose when I was trying to move them computers from the previous setting ("in a big pile on top of each other") into a shelf.
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19:12:11 <deveah> dude, understand I have not.
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20:45:10 <fizzie> Out of curiosity, what should happen if a Funge-98 IP were to hit the > on the line ";>#;"? (Quotes not part of the line, obviously.)
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21:07:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | If (x,y) is in the set, f(x) = y..
21:12:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, well it would begin executing code there
21:12:52 <AnMaster> which means jump over the ;, hitting the second (first one line) ;
21:13:07 <AnMaster> so it jumps to matching ; at the end
21:13:13 <AnMaster> then wraps hits the first ; again
21:13:31 <AnMaster> and so on until some other thread hit q or use p to change that place
21:13:37 <fizzie> Yes, but what happens to the other IPs? ;...; takes no ticks and same for space.
21:14:11 <AnMaster> the funge interpreter isn't required to detect and prevent infinite loops
21:14:13 <fizzie> That was my conclusion too, but it sounds a bit strange.
21:14:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, unless the interpreter is threaded with MVRS
21:14:54 <AnMaster> because the different universes there doesn't need to be in sync
21:15:11 <AnMaster> in fact allowing taking advantage of multi-core
21:15:41 <AnMaster> but with plain t you got an issue yes
21:16:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, the same would happen if you use certain fingerprints that jump without changing delta, to jump to an empty line
21:17:59 <pikhq> Who said the set in question describes a function?
21:18:33 <psygnisfive> in this very isolated quotation, noone! :o
21:18:54 <psygnisfive> it depends on whether or not there exists a z != y such that (x,z) is also in the set!
21:19:42 <pikhq> In fact, it could very well be f(y) = x. ;p
21:21:58 <psygnisfive> since the convention is that if f is a function, then (x,y) in f can be written f(x) = y
21:23:12 <pikhq> Convention says jack shit about formal definitions.
21:23:32 <psygnisfive> well, orthographical conventions ARE formal definitions
21:23:51 <psygnisfive> after all, a formal system is a system based on the form of the thing in question
21:24:25 <psygnisfive> not that you couldn't define f(x) = y as an abbreviation for (y,x) instead of (x,y)
21:25:13 <psygnisfive> since ordered pairs are really not ordered any way we'd normally perceive as being order. in the abstract sense, anyway
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23:18:31 <g0bl1n> can this brainf*ck initialization be reduced ?
23:18:33 <g0bl1n> +++[>+++++++[>++++>+++>+>+++++>+++++>++<<<<<<-]>>+>+++>++>->++[<]<-]
23:21:46 <g0bl1n> AnMaster, any hint ? :)
23:26:36 <fizzie> If you have a zero in the cell to the left of the initial one (like you'd probably have with a wrapping array) you could maybe save a whopping one (1) character by replacing "<<<<<<" with "[<]>>". Not going to try thinking of a better way to set the actual numbers.
23:30:10 <g0bl1n> i have no zero, i'd have to create another cell i believe
23:30:38 <g0bl1n> i tried that solution and it enters an infiniteloop
23:31:09 <GregorR> You should be able to represent what you're trying to achieve as a string then run it through calamari's genetic algorithm.
23:32:42 <g0bl1n> GregorR, yes I have the string (the final result). where do i get calamari's genetic algorithm ?
23:33:39 <g0bl1n> fizzie, you just saved me 1 byte ;)
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23:39:22 <g0bl1n> or 2008: >>>++.--..++++++++.
23:39:48 <g0bl1n> one more cell would not help, agree ?
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23:55:02 <psygnisfive> http://video.xtube.com/watch.php?v_user_id=FukGender&cv=0&idx=3&v=985m8n6P3po&cl=xTxnsh8b7mY&from=&ver=3&ccaa=1&qid=&qidx=&qnum=&preview_flag=
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23:59:57 <GregorR> g0bl1n: It's in the files archive somewhere, just a sec.
00:00:18 <GregorR> http://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/util/textgen.java
00:20:07 <g0bl1n> GregorR, how can i run it ? linux here
00:48:06 <g0bl1n> i try to run it with gij-4.1 but get an error
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01:44:50 <g0bl1n> GregorR, the textgen.java gets results worst then me :)
01:49:15 <g0bl1n> mine: 141 bytes. textgen, till now: 159
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02:09:29 <pikhq> God, I'm a glutton for punishment. I'm remerging my system to change my CFLAGS.
02:23:43 <GregorR> You're using Gentoo? You're right, you are a glutton for punishment.
02:23:53 <GregorR> You enjoy that immeasurably tiny speedup though.
02:43:57 <pikhq> Generally I don't care much about the CFLAGS...
02:44:29 <pikhq> For some reason, I have recently come of the opinion that -Os instead of -O2 will be faster (due to my small cache and slow hard drive), though.
02:45:04 <pikhq> And figured 'well, -Os is one of those CFLAGS that's actually sane to use, and it's not like recompiling is that big of a deal; why not?'
02:45:20 <pikhq> Then I started the whole thing, and realised that that'll take a few days.
02:50:29 <GregorR> O <(Look, it's iChat on IRC!)
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07:36:29 <AnMaster> ais523, seems c-intercal was added to portage(!)
07:40:45 <pikhq> And AnMaster, congrats on having an ebuild in Portage.
07:44:30 <AnMaster> in other news I had to hit reset button first thing this morning
07:44:51 <AnMaster> that is on the computer with the bnc
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09:54:17 <optbot> AnMaster: nothing really
09:54:19 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hm?.
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11:51:13 <oklopol> now that i actually read how subleq works, i gotta wonder, can't you traverse memory?
11:51:44 <oklopol> basically, to construct a list, you will need to encode it in a register using some weird modulo system?
11:51:57 <oklopol> that basically means the memory is mostly useless computationally
11:52:10 <oklopol> you could just as easily have just one memory cell
11:52:36 <oklopol> GregorR: you're the expert, perhaps you'll tell me where i went wrong
11:52:50 <oerjan> um you just use pointers, one per cell?
11:53:37 <oklopol> but aren't all commands just a list of absolute references to the memory?
11:53:53 <oerjan> yes. but the commands are modifiable.
11:53:54 <oklopol> Subleq is a simple one instruction language. Each subleq instruction has 3 operands:
11:53:54 <oklopol> which are memory addresses. Execution of one instruction A B C subtracts the value of memory in A from the content of memory in B. If value after subtraction in B less or equal to zero, then execution jumps to the address C; otherwise to the next instruction.
11:54:21 <fizzie> "The instructions themselves reside in memory as a sequence of such integers."
11:54:36 <oklopol> thank you, although that was so obvious i should technically kill everyone of you
11:55:24 <oklopol> i read just the beginning, i like to get confused, ask, and let others read the rest of the text for me.
11:57:39 <oklopol> now i kinda wanna play with that
11:57:45 <fizzie> Is there a good way of commenting Befunge? I'd like to have some sort of system which would let me attach comments to arbitrary sets of funge-space locations, and then when I edit the file to move things around the comments should move too.
11:58:17 <oklopol> as in, some kinda befunge gui?
11:59:19 <fizzie> I would be reasonably content with a simple editor. Either graphical or curses-style, although I guess a GUI thing would have more options for indicating the presence of comments.
12:00:08 <oklopol> well you could have them float around, you know, and perhaps tell you what exactly you're looking at as you're glancing through the code
12:00:22 <oklopol> more like a friend than an editor really.
12:00:41 <oklopol> i have a "lecture", see you ->
12:05:22 <fizzie> FungeFriend might be a good name for a Befunge IDE.
12:05:38 <fizzie> Or maybe it sounds too much like a fungal infection?
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14:02:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I wonder where he is too
14:02:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Doing things other than talking on IRC>
14:02:52 <ehird> Sometimes people do things. :P
14:04:13 <AnMaster> even if nothing else, as long as you are alive, you perform the action of existing.
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14:05:13 <AnMaster> and probably one of sit, stand, walk, crawl, lie (and so on)..
14:07:54 <ehird> what a great extension
14:07:56 <ehird> it replaces ads with art
14:08:06 <ehird> why didn't I think of that?
14:08:15 <ehird> http://add-art.org/
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14:15:59 <AnMaster> ehird, art as in famous paintings?
14:16:22 <ehird> It does have it on the site, you know, but I haven't checked it out.
14:16:27 <AnMaster> the pic on the main page seems to just replace it with the text art
14:16:40 <ehird> That was an example.
14:47:11 <oklocod> i'm not talking about skin color
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16:04:50 <oklopol> four fish, one is green, the other is yellow, what's 2+2?
16:04:58 <oklopol> it's harder than you think
16:11:55 <oklopol> THIS RIDDLE HAS NO ANSWER, STOP ANSWERING
16:12:25 <oklopol> i'm aiming for a boy-who-cried the wolf situation. for the next N days i'm going to give you a riddle, each more ridiculous than the next
16:12:50 <oklopol> one of them, is actually so great, so deep, that if you actually tried to solve it, you'd absolutely love it
16:13:02 <ehird> oklopol: i'll do it
16:13:09 <oklopol> but no one will ever know which one it is
16:13:19 <ehird> oklopol: i will ASSEMBLE A COMMITTEE TO SOLVE IT
16:13:45 <oklopol> because to be able to find out which one is the great one, you'd have to try and solve all of them, which is kinda stupid, because most of the time you'd just be searching for nothing.
16:13:55 <ehird> oklopol: but committee
16:14:06 <ehird> oklopol: i have defeated you
16:14:13 <ehird> so much for THAT IDEA
16:14:22 <oklopol> fuck it, i'm gonna get a real job
16:19:25 <ehird> oklopol: does anyone play the counter any more
16:21:00 <oklopol> ehird: i don't know, because i don't.
16:21:08 <ehird> when did you las tplay
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16:24:17 <ehird> oklopol: 5 years ago??????
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16:38:36 <oklopol> ehird: no, you silly gangster
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17:00:34 <Slereah_> "Unchurched" or "The Unchurched" or "unchurched people" is defined by the Barna Group as "an adult (18 or older) who has not attended a Christian church service within the past six months" excluding special services such as Easter, Christmas, weddings or funerals.Barna reports there are 75 million "unchurched people" in the United States as of 2004.
17:00:44 <Slereah_> And me using it to mean convert lambdas into numbers!
17:01:10 <ais523> anyway, I have several hundred emails to read through
17:01:16 <ais523> so I'm likely to be uncommunicative for a bit
17:01:32 <ais523> AnMaster: I got your /query though, I'll make sure it's fixed before the release
17:02:15 <Slereah_> http://img.4chan.org/r9k/src/1223888838875.jpg
17:02:20 <Slereah_> That Joe Biden sure can yield logic
17:02:45 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and c-intercal got into portage
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18:41:09 <ais523> just busy catching up on email
18:41:23 <AnMaster> * [ais523] is away (Gone away for now.)
18:41:36 <AnMaster> ais523, also how can you get that much email?
18:41:42 <ais523> AnMaster: being subscribed to three nomics
18:41:54 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe that isn't a good thing :P
18:42:19 <ais523> I'm also in two others, but they aren't email nomics
18:43:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I think you may be too much active what that if it takes so much of your free time
18:43:38 <ais523> it doesn't, just a few hours every Monday to catch up on the weekend
18:44:32 <ais523> while I do other things
18:44:40 <ais523> I was working on C-INTERCAL a bit recently, though
18:44:44 <ais523> let me push the changes
18:45:00 <ais523> I fixed some of the bugs you reported
18:45:26 <ais523> also I implemented an optimisation for gerund abstention that Joris sent me months ago
18:45:31 <ais523> AnMaster: not the -F one yet
18:45:40 <ais523> it was mostly the build process bugs to do with not cross-compiling
18:45:57 <ais523> now if you aren't cross-compiling your CC and CFLAGS last through the whole compilation
18:45:57 <AnMaster> ais523, also I don't know if it still affects you with new build system, but some gentoo developer made a patch to ensure make -j2 and higher works
18:45:59 <ais523> although not at runtime
18:46:13 <ais523> AnMaster: the new build system works fine with -j2
18:46:17 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/jYiUEc56.html
18:47:04 <ais523> ah ok, just the old lex/yacc dependencies patch
18:47:11 <ais523> Automake does that automatically, so I didn't have to think about it
18:47:16 <AnMaster> ais523, wasn't in the last release anyway
18:47:31 <ais523> it fixed itself incidentally in trunk, though
18:48:00 <ais523> I learnt about the lex/yacc dependencies trick from the Automake doc
18:48:40 <ais523> how to generate the .c and .h in a way that's safe in a parallel make
18:48:48 <ais523> given that lex and yacc output at the wrong filename
18:49:00 <AnMaster> well it seems to be a command line parameter
18:49:20 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, that doesn't work portably
18:49:23 <ais523> so they did half the fix
18:49:36 <AnMaster> ais523, obviously what was needed for gentoo toolchain
18:49:39 <ais523> but the other half would work on Gentoo, presumably, who knows their own lex/yacc versions
18:49:46 <ais523> but not on SunOS, for instance
18:49:53 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah it is the gnu toolchain
18:50:47 <AnMaster> Pulling from "http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/"...
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18:53:17 <AnMaster> ais523, my computer with the collection of compilers is currently off.
18:53:32 * AnMaster test builds on his amd64 anyway
18:53:33 <ais523> anyway, it's only half fixed
18:53:55 <ais523> but I think it still defaults to using gcc at runtime
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18:54:24 <ais523> anyway, I fixed the ar thing too
18:54:46 <ais523> except for stringising
18:54:58 <ais523> what if there are backslashes or double quotes in the compiler name?
18:55:12 <ais523> <ais523> what if there are backslashes or double quotes in the compiler name?
18:55:14 <AnMaster> ais523, ah , what about using the # operator then?
18:55:22 <ais523> yes, I was planning to do it using #
18:55:27 <ais523> it's easy but not trivial
18:56:03 <ais523> that defines it to #CC
18:56:15 <ais523> but there is a trick to make it work, I just have to look it up
18:56:19 <ais523> it involves using more than one macro
18:56:24 <ais523> and passing things round as arguments
18:56:34 <ais523> either that, or I could just use sed
18:56:49 <AnMaster> ais523, does that exist on all platforms you support?
18:57:05 <AnMaster> ais523, also do you support MSVC? Considering you seem to support everything else
18:57:18 <ais523> I haven't tested on MSVC yet
18:57:27 <ais523> it doesn't interact well with a POSIX build process
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18:57:31 <ais523> but the computers at Uni have it
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18:57:37 <ais523> so I may make a batch file to use it correctly
18:57:46 <ais523> the files themself should compile with MSVC just fine
18:59:15 * ais523 reboots their computer
18:59:18 <ais523> I'll be back soon, though
19:04:19 <AnMaster> one thing: msvc would need a project file I think?
19:04:32 <ais523> not if you just used cl
19:04:36 <ais523> to compile the files command-line style
19:04:40 <ais523> I generally use cl rather than the IDE
19:04:47 <ais523> even when working on a visual-studio-only prokect
19:04:54 <ais523> because I like the command line
19:05:01 <AnMaster> oh and I know cfunge won't compile with that. Since it is C99
19:05:19 <AnMaster> cygwin does apparently work if you try hard enough
19:05:27 <ais523> I wouldn't be surprised
19:05:34 <ais523> it's just gcc with a different backend, after all
19:05:54 <AnMaster> ais523, well iirc some defines or such were missing
19:06:03 <AnMaster> that I relied on for checking that a feature existed
19:06:20 <ais523> that's generally a bad idea, autoconf is better at detecting features than looking for defines
19:06:30 <AnMaster> I mean POSIX says a certain header should define a certain define with a certain value if a feature is supported
19:06:51 <ais523> there might be something that isn't POSIX
19:06:54 <ais523> but supports the feature anyway
19:07:08 <AnMaster> if implementations support those features but don't define the defines then any user of that system should report a bug
19:07:29 <ENKI-][> ais523: i once attempted a flex lexxer for bf -> x86 asm (nasm syntax). it might still be around if you're interested.
19:07:54 <AnMaster> to indicate support for mmap() munmap()
19:07:55 <ais523> ENKI-][: BF is one of the few languages simple enough that you can compile it with just lex
19:08:05 <ais523> but given that BF lexers are so simple, you don't need lex really
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19:08:19 <ENKI-][> i've written esolangs that compiled with just lex
19:08:29 <AnMaster> MF - _POSIX_MAPPED_FILES - _SC_MAPPED_FILES
19:08:29 <AnMaster> Shared memory is supported. The include file <sys/mman.h> is present. The following functions are present: mmap(), msync(), mun-
19:08:34 <ENKI-][> but, i've written esolangs that used lex as an interpreter too
19:09:02 <ENKI-][> i haven't spoken in here much before
19:09:27 <AnMaster> <ais523> ENKI-][: BF is one of the few languages simple enough that you can compile it with just lex
19:09:27 <AnMaster> <ais523> but given that BF lexers are so simple, you don't need lex really
19:09:34 <AnMaster> I just wrote a recursive parser
19:09:56 <AnMaster> using even flex seemed like overkill
19:10:04 <ENKI-][> i tend to just combine lex with copious flags and ignore yacc
19:10:16 <ENKI-][> if you do that, even more complex languages are doable
19:10:22 <AnMaster> ENKI-][, seems like overkill, when all you need is a switch case really
19:10:27 * ais523 downloads a 4D flight simulator
19:10:40 <ENKI-][> though i'd actually quite like a better lexer
19:10:45 <ais523> I mean four-dimensional
19:10:50 <AnMaster> ais523, then that includes all of them
19:10:58 <ENKI-][> AnMaster: meh. i prefer not to have to tokenize 100%
19:11:01 <AnMaster> ais523, unless you hit the pause feature
19:11:07 <ais523> AnMaster: four space dimensions
19:11:15 <AnMaster> ENKI-][, err, you hardly need that for bf
19:11:17 <ENKI-][> AnMaster: but i think i rewrote that bf compiler in pure c first
19:11:28 <AnMaster> ENKI-][, I build the tree, reading one symbol at a time
19:11:36 <ENKI-][> AnMaster: i've written other stuff with flex compilers though.
19:11:57 <AnMaster> ENKI-][, well just overkill for bf
19:12:07 <ais523> although I haven't used it yet
19:12:14 <ais523> I'm reading the docs atm
19:12:19 <ais523> and the link is apt-get adanaxisgpl
19:12:31 <ais523> which isn't particularly useful to someone not on Debian or a derivative
19:12:39 <ENKI-][> i also wrote the implementation of a network protocol as a flex lexxer, hooking into a kind of flattened list-of-lists
19:12:43 <AnMaster> ais523, can't you query package manager for url?
19:12:45 <oerjan> should be possible to make an infinite-dimensional one. might be hard to find anything else in it though...
19:13:06 <ais523> http://www.mushware.com/
19:13:18 <ais523> N.B. I haven't visited that site
19:13:26 <ais523> but it's recorded as the homepage in the package
19:13:48 <AnMaster> ais523, seems like there is a commercial one too
19:14:59 <AnMaster> ais523, also that says space shooter, not flight sim
19:15:03 <oerjan> <AnMaster> even if nothing else, as long as you are alive, you perform the action of existing.
19:15:10 <AnMaster> a flight sim most likely lack usable guns
19:15:23 <AnMaster> since it simulates *flight* in *air*
19:15:33 <ais523> a space shooter is a flight sim too, though, just with weapons
19:15:45 <oerjan> i think there are philosophical problems with considering existence an action or property
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19:16:23 <oerjan> there was a flawed proof of God based on it, i think
19:16:43 <AnMaster> ais523, a flight sim should have accurate aerodynamics. Many aircraft fighter games I have seen fail totally at that
19:16:56 <AnMaster> ais523, while a flight sim does it properly
19:16:56 <oerjan> basically, God is by definition perfect, so has every positive property, including existence, QED.
19:17:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, that doesn't work for other reasons
19:17:36 <ais523> oerjan: that's flawed even without the flaw you mentioned
19:17:49 <ENKI-][> externism is the opposite of nihilism
19:17:49 <ais523> define X to be an odd perfect number that exists.
19:17:56 <ais523> By definition, X exists
19:17:57 <ENKI-][> it's the opposite of solipism rather
19:17:59 <ais523> so there is an odd perfect number
19:18:10 <ENKI-][> everything exists but the self
19:18:14 <oerjan> ais523: um that _was_ the flaw i mentioned
19:18:29 <ais523> oerjan: ah, I thought you were talking about the flaw being that existence wasn't a property
19:19:36 <ais523> I think the flaw is that all you've proved is that if God exists, God exists
19:19:46 <AnMaster> ais523, in fact I can't find any gpl download for that project
19:19:52 <ais523> the argument you give does not contradict the possibility that God does not exist
19:20:06 <ais523> you'd think they'd advertise their GPL download too, seeing as it exists
19:20:10 <ais523> or maybe they wouldn't in the hope you'd pay
19:20:27 <AnMaster> ais523, can't find it anyway, maybe they changed license
19:20:36 <AnMaster> also it seems it is a one man company, says so on front page
19:20:48 <oerjan> ais523: well obviously there are several ways of looking at it, but some philosophers have considered that the flaw in the argument is considering existence a property
19:21:15 <ENKI-][> thomas aquinas has a similar 'proof' that was a bit better, but that will probably end up with something very un-godlike
19:21:54 <ENKI-][> god is the best. if there's something better, it's not god. when you reach the end, it's god. the universe is finite, so there must be something that's best.
19:22:10 <oklopol> yeah that makes so much sense
19:22:24 <ENKI-][> but does that mean that if i value chocolate cakes over everything in the universe, the best chocolate cake i've ever had is god?
19:22:29 <AnMaster> http://www.mushware.com/viewtopic.php?p=352
19:22:53 <AnMaster> "For Linux, a GPL version of this game is available, which lacks the commercially-sourced graphical and audio content present in the non-GPL version. Use the Change Listing box above and select Linux/GPL only to view it.
19:23:22 <AnMaster> ais523, tell me if it is worth it
19:23:31 <ais523> I haven't tried it yet
19:23:38 <ais523> but I'll let you know later if you like
19:23:51 <AnMaster> http://www.mushware.com/album_showpage.php?pic_id=8
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21:07:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | looks cool, but light on th CPU.
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22:06:48 <Asztal> the newbies discovered the undergrad mailing list :(
22:07:44 <Asztal> so far there's been random chit-chat, "who are you and why are you sending me email, I don't know you", people signing up to myspace, and BBC gardening newsletters
22:08:17 <Asztal> and of course the all-time favourite, "STOP SPAMMING THE MAILING LIST!" sent to the entire mailing list.
22:08:20 <ais523> this is as bad as the day about 8 people posted SWORDFISH to what is normally a low-traffic mailing list
22:30:58 * GregorR enjoys his oh-so-exclusive graduate mailing list :P
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23:16:37 <ENKI-][> that's sort of like the time that chinese and korean spammers and sourceforge ad partners discovered the development group for a project with only 3 members on google groups, and decided to try to outdo each other, three years after the project disbanded
23:17:17 <ENKI-][> then i had to look up the password and close the group
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04:57:16 <GregorR> Devise an algorithm to sort an array of numbers in place (that is, using O(1) additional space).
04:57:16 <GregorR> Bonus: How would you change this algorithm if you wanted to destroy all animal life? All life?
05:00:07 <GregorR> What, are you people impervious to humor?
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05:02:09 <GregorR> The second line is the joke X_X
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05:58:53 <oklopol> GregorR: well i found bsmntbombdood much funnier than your joke :D
05:59:53 <oklopol> also, i can only think of ways to sort in O(1) space in O(n) time
06:04:04 <oklopol> i've only heard something vague about one being able to get rid of the recursion stack for quicksort
06:04:25 <oklopol> which i once made an attempt at, but resulted in O(n lg lg n) afaik
06:05:07 <GregorR> The simplest answer is bubble sort, but THAT'S NOT THE BLOODY JOKE
06:05:08 <oklopol> *O(lg lg n) space actually
06:05:42 <GregorR> That's O(1) /additional/ space.
06:05:44 <oklopol> i was thinking O(n lg n) time, O(1) space
06:06:09 <GregorR> I never said to use better than O(n^2) time though.
06:06:23 <GregorR> You people are joke murderers.
06:06:56 <oklopol> it's just i want to know if you can do O(1) additional space in O(n lg n) time
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06:10:01 <oklopol> now sorting an array of numbers in O(-1) space, that's a challenge
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06:11:50 <oklopol> almost forgot, the lecture on O(-2^n) space O(-n) time algorithms starts in 5 minutes
06:12:04 <oklopol> first of all i meant O(n^2), i just wasn't thinking
06:12:26 <oklopol> and you can get O(n) in some cases
06:13:14 <oklopol> if you're sorting objects in a finite set, you can lift the size of the set into the constant multiplier, and get O(n)
06:13:37 <oklopol> all these hole sorts are based on this
06:13:47 <oklopol> you know, you have a hole and you stick your finger in it
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06:22:39 <GregorR> You're always sorting in a finite set.
06:22:53 <GregorR> Although admittedly bucket-sorting integers into 2^64 is a bit prohibitive.
06:23:02 <GregorR> Although admittedly bucket-sorting integers into 2^64 buckets is a bit prohibitive.
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06:29:09 <oerjan> hm... heap sort might be without extra space and still O(n lg n) isn't it?
06:29:30 <oklocod> GregorR: computers are turing complete, and 0..2^64-1 is an infinite set
06:29:57 <GregorR> By what stretch of the imagination is 0..2^64-1 an infinite set?
06:30:15 <oklocod> GregorR: it's reeeeeally big
06:30:36 <oklocod> my point is you have to choose your abstractions
06:31:15 * oerjan sometimes has envisioned that the consistency of infinite maths is an illusion, and maybe it breaks down at some _big_ number
06:31:58 <oerjan> but maybe so big that we can never hit it with any proof that fits in our universe
06:32:32 <oerjan> of course it could be much smaller, we just haven't found it yet
06:32:55 <oklocod> you mean, all maths break down at that number?
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06:33:19 <oerjan> well maybe not all simultaneously, but that's when things start to break
06:33:29 <oklocod> i may sound a bit more stupid than i am, as i have like a 2 minute lag
06:33:46 <oklocod> so i'm often asking questions loooong after they've already been answered
06:33:56 <oklocod> oerjan: at least an hour long lag
06:34:03 <oerjan> CTCP PING reply from oklocod: -6.-79 seconds
06:34:09 <oerjan> that looks ... serious
06:35:15 <oerjan> perhaps your PING reply is broken
06:35:39 <oerjan> iirc it should respond with the number i sent, or something
06:36:03 <oerjan> -> ctcp[oklocod] PING 1223962424 679900
06:36:34 <oerjan> but if you don't, obviously the time calculations will be off
06:37:32 <oerjan> and the second - is probably irssi not being prepared to handle negative numbers in the display
06:38:43 <oerjan> and using a / and % that rounds in the wrong direction for this purpose
06:39:57 <oerjan> although it's _still_ strange that it gets numbers that low - if you respond with garbage you'd think irssi would end up with something huge?
06:41:07 <oerjan> um this time i got no response
06:41:45 * oerjan guesses oklocod really is lagged now
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06:44:21 <oklopol> after which my internet faded away
06:45:35 <oklopol> and is this lecture about databases, the course is about distributed computation
06:48:10 <oerjan> ok i get PING replies again now, but still strangely small negative numbers
06:48:39 <oerjan> theory: maybe you reply with your own clocktime, which is slow?
06:49:22 <fizzie> oerjan: That sounds likely, because he replied to fungot's "PING fungot" with a clocktime.
06:49:23 <fungot> fizzie: that's usually because almost all implementations of the high-level s-expression manipulation commands ( slurpage, barfage, &c.
06:50:15 <fizzie> oklopol: It's not you we're mocking, it's your WORLD'S MOST FAMOUS AND BESTEST IRC client we're mocking.
06:52:40 <oerjan> also your clock setting
06:52:43 <oklopol> oh you think it's the bestest too?
06:52:56 <fizzie> So I've heard. From you, mostly.
06:53:08 * oerjan refuses to believe nvg's automatically updated clocks are wrong
06:53:23 <oklopol> well tbh this is a very sucky client, except for the fact it looks pretty without me having to invert the colors manually
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06:55:14 * oerjan inverted his colors by downloading a theme from the irssi website
06:56:29 <oklopol> irssi is another client that has white text on black by default
06:56:41 <oklopol> but, it's a sucky client otherwise
06:56:42 * pikhq loves white on black
06:56:57 <oklopol> well, my irssi was broken, and no one knew how to fix it
06:57:08 <oerjan> well it's internal documentation sucks, is what i find
06:57:13 <oklopol> couldn't get any kind of highlighting to show
06:57:25 <pikhq> irssi, a sucky client? What kind of person clames that?
06:57:39 <oklopol> pikhq: of course, no sane person would use black on white
06:57:52 <pikhq> Not on a terminal.
06:57:55 <oerjan> oklopol: GOOD THAT I AM MAD THEN
06:58:16 <oklopol> pikhq: a client that doesn't work is sucky.
06:58:36 <oklopol> i couldn't get the bar that tells me which channels have some kinda highlights to show
06:58:40 <pikhq> oklopol: What doesn't work about irssi, aside from your borken irssi configuration?
06:59:08 <fizzie> I used a black-on-white terminal (with matching irssi, mutt, tin color schemes) for a year or two. Then I went back to white-on-black.
06:59:11 <pikhq> ... You couldn't get irssi's default configuration to work?
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07:20:27 <oklocod> pikhq: one reason for not liking irssi was it simply didn't work, it didn't show the bar where you see which channels have had activity
07:20:40 <pikhq> Which is its default behavior.
07:20:52 <oklocod> okay, well i guess i should've asked you then.
07:20:55 <pikhq> Which means your irssi setup is 100% broken.
07:20:57 <oklocod> i'm pretty sure i asked here
07:22:12 <oklocod> how does it work if you have more than ten channels open?
07:23:51 <pikhq> q = 11, w = 12, ...
07:24:03 <pikhq> Not sure about what happens when you've got more than 20, though.
07:24:13 <pikhq> Think you have to do /window number
07:24:20 <oklocod> i don't think i ever have less than 20 open
07:24:55 <oklocod> /window sounds a bit awkward, but at least there is a solution
07:24:56 <pikhq> /win number works, too...
07:25:20 <oklocod> but, i never actually researched the subject, it's easier just to use the client that works the best without configuring.
07:25:56 <oklocod> i won't be satisfied with a client anyway, unless i made it myself, so i don't have much incentive to fix things
07:26:26 <pikhq> In theory, one could make irssi such that it's satisfactory to you.
07:26:33 <pikhq> It is, after all, Perl customizable.
07:26:55 <oklocod> yes, you can do that for nnscript as well
07:27:32 <oklocod> but will i actually do that when i could just start over and get a system just as good.
07:29:02 <oklocod> also irssi has the minor defect i would have to learn to do the things command-wise i'm used to doing with the mouse
07:29:25 <oklocod> (and by that i mean sending stuff to others)
07:33:30 <oklocod> well, my father uses windows faster without a mouse, i'm just used to it
07:33:56 <oklocod> i would like a touchscreen you can touch in multiple places at once
07:35:24 <oklocod> and now i wanna write an irc client
07:35:41 <oklocod> fizzie: could you add a gui to fungot?
07:35:43 <fungot> oklocod: why'd you kill it?
07:36:22 <oklocod> so i could use it as my client
07:41:53 <oklocod> perhaps i could encode text into graph representations, and make a client with graph-graphics! :o
07:42:13 <oklocod> oh my god, i could have 1. graphs 2. glyphs only i am able to read 3. pure 4. awesomeness
07:44:23 <oklocod> undirected graph of course :P
07:45:15 <oklocod> will you join my exzuuuuuuuberance?
07:52:15 <AnMaster> oklocod, you could probably make an ncurses based GUI using NCRS
07:53:36 <oklocod> but really i don't need the g
07:53:45 <oklocod> i just wanna irc through fungot
07:53:46 <fungot> oklocod: that is the part where the compiler is " poorly designed" if continuations are not unmodular in the same sense
07:54:08 <oklocod> except right now all i can think about it making a graph-based alphabet.
07:54:12 <AnMaster> oklocod, well since it use SOCK you still have blocking STDIO I that you could use
07:54:42 <AnMaster> you need non-blocking stdio I suspect
07:54:58 <oklocod> hey don't talk to me this is fizzie's responsibility, i'd just be a user! :)
07:55:50 <AnMaster> reference to undefined identifier: moooooore
07:56:36 <oklocod> it's an elongation of "more"
07:56:46 <oklocod> don't you have elongation support?
07:56:48 <AnMaster> reference to undefined identifier: more
07:57:18 <oklocod> oh you were pipelining it to a non-human interpreter
07:58:09 <AnMaster> oklocod, it looked like scheme to me
07:58:47 <oklocod> who wants to listen to lectures when you could just read a few hundred pages
07:58:57 <oklocod> and get tons more informatino
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08:00:21 <oklocod> well, the lecturer did mention a 1200 page book that *did not fully cover this course*
08:01:22 <oklocod> seems i gotta get back home ->
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08:17:59 <oerjan> any lisp ought to have elongation support
08:18:08 <oerjan> (caaaaaaaaaaaaar wreck)
08:18:44 <oklopol> well the spec only requires it four deep
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08:21:51 <oklopol> name ideas for a graph-based irc client?
08:23:02 <oklopol> orc would be quite standard for me, but that's kinda boring
08:24:04 <oklopol> graphirc would look a bit like a mistyping of graphic, perhaps, but that's a bit boring too
08:30:45 <oklopol> how many distinct graphs can you make with n nodes?
08:32:36 <oklopol> or is it np-complete to calculate that?
08:33:42 <fizzie> 2^(n over 2) undirected graphs, I think. Since that's the number of node-pairs, and each pair can either have an edge or not.
08:35:56 <oerjan> Besides its practical importance, the graph isomorphism problem is a curiosity in computational complexity theory as it is one of a very small number of problems belonging to NP neither known to be solvable in polynomial time nor NP-complete.
08:36:10 <fizzie> That's not the same problem, though.
08:36:30 <fizzie> That's "determine whether two classes are isomorphic", not "how many isomorphism classes there are in graphs with n vertices".
08:36:32 <oklopol> you see i'm building something like morse code, i have one main strand, where i need to hang these small graphies on the nodes
08:36:36 <fizzie> It doesn't sound very easy, though.
08:37:13 <fizzie> s/classes/graphs/ there.
08:37:30 <oklopol> all the graphies need to be distinct (although they may be rooted, which matters of course)
08:38:39 <oklopol> i can enumerate the sets manually for long enough to get a character for every ascii chart entry, i'm just interested in theory
08:39:33 <fizzie> Heh, the R "graph.isomorphism" package: "graph.isoclass returns the isomorphism class of a graph, a non-negative integer number. Graphs (with the same number of vertices) having the same isomorphism class are isomorphic and isomorphic graphs always have the same isomorphism class. Currently it can handle only graphs with 3 or 4 vertices."
08:39:47 <fizzie> If it were trivial, I would think they'd handle graphs with over 4 vertices.
08:40:35 <oklopol> a new kind of structure seems to emerge every time i add a new node
08:40:51 <oklopol> which immediately suggests there's no simple way to calculate the number of them
08:41:28 <fizzie> Actually I think we manually enumerated the isomorphism classes for small graphs during the graph theory course, when thinking about some assignment.
08:42:05 <oklopol> yes, but this is not the exact same problem, because they may be rooted; except i now realize they *are* exactly the same problem.
08:42:29 <oklopol> you just need to take the graphs, and root them from every possible angle
08:42:36 <oklopol> no... it's not that simple
08:42:53 <oklopol> i don't think it's the same problem
08:43:08 <fizzie> I don't think it is either.
08:44:02 <oklopol> for instance the graph abcda can be rooted in four different ways, all of which are equal, while in abcad three of the rootings are distinct
08:44:13 <oklopol> if you know eodermdrome syntax, which you probably don't
08:44:30 <oklopol> but you may be able to guess how it works
08:44:53 <oerjan> "In some sense, graph isomorphism is easy in practice except for a set of pathologically difficult graphs that seem to cause all the problems. So, unlike knot theory, there have never been any significant pairs of graphs for which isomorphism was unresolved."
08:45:51 <oerjan> (the first quote was Wikipedia)
08:45:52 <fizzie> A000088, Number of graphs on n unlabeled nodes.
08:46:06 <fizzie> 1, 1, 2, 4, 11, 34, 156, ...
08:46:08 <oerjan> darn i was trying to get to that
08:46:11 <fizzie> There are some formulas.
08:46:54 <fizzie> ..., , 1044, 12346, 274668, 12005168, 1018997864, 165091172592, 50502031367952, 29054155657235488, 31426485969804308768, 64001015704527557894928, 245935864153532932683719776, 1787577725145611700547878190848, 24637809253125004524383007491432768
08:47:03 <fizzie> Turns out it's not actually that difficult to compute.
08:47:32 <oklopol> cool, now tell me *how* to compute it, so i can generalize it for rooted graphs...
08:47:35 <fizzie> And in fact we _did_ compute it; it was the "generative functions" class, not the graph theory one, and we manually enumerated them because we wanted to check whether our solution was correct.
08:47:55 <fizzie> Or at least we wrote a generative function for it. I'm not sure if we actually figured out the coefficients.
08:48:15 <fizzie> I can check if I can find my notes. It might've been something else than just unlabeled graphs.
08:48:33 <oklopol> i don't know anything about generative functions, i've heard of generating functions, but i'm not sure what they are either.
08:49:39 <fizzie> Generating function might be the correct english term.
08:50:18 <fizzie> It's just a function whose power series representation has coefficients that correspond to some interesting sequence.
08:50:37 <oerjan> that's sort of strange. i would have thought that since testing isomorphism is hard, that would mess up the count too...
08:51:05 <fizzie> The Generatingfunctionology book is relatively nice; even the name is funky.
08:51:11 <fizzie> We used that as a course book, I think.
08:52:12 <fizzie> I didn't read it much, it was sort-of background material.
08:52:32 <fizzie> Why can't I find my homework solutions?
08:54:49 <oerjan> http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A032259 has a really weird description
08:55:50 <oklopol> what don't you know what a dyslexic windmills :D
08:57:45 <fizzie> Okay, seems like our "number of graphs" homework problem was actually restricted to some kind of trees.
08:58:24 <oerjan> oklopol: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A126100
08:58:27 <fizzie> It was Autumn 2006, I've forgotten most of it, I just remember counting graphs at some point.
08:58:52 <oklopol> connected is actually what i want
08:59:11 <oklopol> you know, i'm making a writing system you know
09:00:15 <oklopol> 4 has just 11 distinct rooted garphs 8|
09:00:40 <oerjan> that one seems to use generating functions
09:00:47 <oklopol> right, i'm not counting the root; i only found 9 of the 11 sofar
09:01:32 <fizzie> Yes, it's computed from combining the generating functions of A000666 (sequence of the beast!) and A000088.
09:02:07 <fizzie> See, that's how useful they are; you just need to multiply some known functions and you get an otherwise-not-quite-as-simple-to-compute sequence out of it.
09:03:00 <oklopol> i know they are useful, and i know what they are; i just don't know anything about them :)
09:03:37 <oklopol> okay i think i have all eleven distinct rooted graphs on 4 nodes
09:04:04 <fizzie> Next find the 58 5-vertex graphs and the 407 6-vertex graphs.
09:05:20 <fizzie> And also the 72489 6-vertex graphs; then you probably have a graph for each currently defined Unicode symbol.
09:05:39 <oklopol> . is the root, standard eodermdrome syntax: .a.b.c, .ab.c, .ab.cb, .aba.c, .abac, .ab.acb, .ab.ac, .abca, .abc, .ab.cabc, .abc.
09:06:35 <oklopol> ais523: i love it! now check those
09:07:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | sounds good.
09:07:12 <oklopol> basically, ".abc" are the four nodes, adjacent letters mean there's an arc
09:07:28 <fizzie> Okay, I did guess the syntax mostly correctly.
09:07:38 <oklopol> others are the more complicated cases
09:07:59 <fizzie> The "comb" is actually called "claw".
09:08:03 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claw_(graph_theory)
09:09:17 <oklopol> well i mean the general case, just happened to have 4 nodes
09:09:40 <oklopol> .a.b.c.d..., where the last dots are an ellipsis
09:11:02 <oklopol> perhaps i could just enumerate the n^2 possibilities, and try to remove equals
09:11:26 <oklopol> could prolly get up to six vertex graphs, and as you pointed out, that's definitely enough
09:11:26 <fizzie> Of course the claw is not rooted, so .abac is also a claw.
09:12:19 <fizzie> And it's not n^2 possibilities.
09:13:09 <oklopol> it's just all these numbers are so over whelming
09:13:31 <oklopol> they're (so over whelming)
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09:37:29 <oklopol> there's actually no way the brute force algorithm will be able to enumerate all the 72 thousand distinct graphs
09:37:59 <oklopol> if i brute force by simply trying out all switchings of edges that is
09:38:08 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm what about using quantum stuff for that?
09:38:08 <oklopol> because it's 68 billion possibilities :P
09:38:23 <oklopol> AnMaster: you mean like search?
09:38:42 <AnMaster> oklopol, well I don't really understand quantum computer
09:38:57 <oklopol> i could use all kinds of things, i just can't wrap my head around how to actually do any of this efficiently.
09:39:14 <oklopol> perhaps i would get some perspective if i knew even a relatively fast way the check the equality of two graphs
09:39:16 <AnMaster> but isn't it good at stuff like search huge number of combinations
09:39:44 <oklopol> quantum basically means you're doing nondeterministic search that always guesses rigt
09:39:47 <AnMaster> well maybe could be useful for checking all graphs then?
09:40:19 <oklopol> well yes, always finding the solution on the first attempt does help you find lots of things
09:40:42 <AnMaster> since it apparently is so for primes
09:40:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, as far as I understood it, not always, but "most of the time"?
09:41:27 <oklopol> yes, anyway, i doubt quantum algorithms, when translated to computers, are anything but searching with a heuristic
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09:46:49 <oklopol> ais523: do you have an algorithm for eodermdomizing a graph?
09:47:13 <oklopol> even a bad one would suffice
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09:58:49 <fizzie> If it's a connected graph, can't you just do a simple depth-first-search (flagging nodes as visited to avoid loops)? Then you'd just output the the node label when entering a node, and the parent when coming back.
10:02:59 <oklopol> thanks, for some reason i was wanted to start with "", and start filling it node by node by looking for adjacent neighbors of its
10:03:46 <oklopol> i doubt a string contains many of its own neighbors.
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10:10:21 <oklopol> hehe, takes about a minute to get the 58 solutions, assuming the graph equality even works :P
10:13:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, is that a slow or fast in this context?
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10:14:14 <oklopol> AnMaster: well i'm aiming for that 72 thousand
10:14:32 <oklopol> and the runtime growth is exponential
10:14:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, so too slow in other words?
10:15:27 <oklopol> well in other *worlds* it wouldn't be too slow
10:15:34 <oklopol> words i don't know anything about
10:16:28 <AnMaster> but is it too slow for the intended usage?
10:17:43 <fizzie> http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/nauty/ is a well-known graph automorphism/isomorphism thingie. I haven't self used it, but one of the graph theory programming project people did.
10:17:48 <AnMaster> hm isn't * for dereferencing pointers and * for multiplication ambiguous in C? At least in some contexts?
10:18:17 <fizzie> It's a multiplication.
10:18:31 <fizzie> Because "2 <pointer-dereferencing>" is not legal syntax.
10:18:59 <fizzie> That is "2 multiply (pointer-dereference foo)" because, again, it's the only way to make sense out of it.
10:19:07 <oklopol> fizzie: i can't use other people's programs
10:19:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, so it is never ambiguous?
10:19:18 <fizzie> oklopol: Oh, you had that sort of a bug.
10:19:27 <oklopol> when i'm asking for help, i'm asking for an algorithm
10:19:50 <fizzie> oklopol: Well, see the referenced paper, then: http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/nauty/PGI/
10:19:58 <AnMaster> oklopol, "not invented here syndrome"?
10:20:05 <oklopol> fizzie: i'll try to get mine to work first :)
10:20:15 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, quite a bad case o that
10:20:27 <oklopol> although i never understood the name
10:20:49 <AnMaster> huh? How is it hard to understand?
10:21:02 <AnMaster> "we can't use it, because it wasn't invented here"
10:21:19 <AnMaster> oklopol, remember to avoid standard library functions too
10:21:53 <oklopol> well i never figured what sentence it's part of
10:21:59 <oklopol> but yeah i guess it fits that sentence.
10:23:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, well "wasn't" != "not", but something similar to that sentence I guess
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10:25:26 <oklopol> AnMaster: i consider standard library functions part of the language
10:25:34 <AnMaster> hm wikipedia says it is also abbreviated (sp?) as NIH
10:25:46 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure I have seen a libnih recently
10:26:00 <oklopol> also, i never use standard library functions if i feel they're too complex for me to code myself.
10:26:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, err that made no sense :P
10:27:17 <AnMaster> oh yes it exists: https://launchpad.net/libnih
10:30:29 <oklopol> i don't see anything good in code reuse
10:32:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, if 10 different applications use the same library, and the same function from that library, to do something, then that means just one function doing that thing, and just one place to fix bugs in
10:33:13 <AnMaster> for example, what if every program implemented it's own sorting algorithm? Instead of using standard library ones
10:33:40 <fizzie> I'm not sure you can manage to convince oklopol that there's anything inherently good about code reuse.
10:34:04 <fizzie> I mean, it's not like he's doing software development here.
10:37:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: if every program implemented its own sorting algorithm, i guess making all programs that need sorting would take a few seconds more to code
10:37:45 <oklopol> but, i do reuse my own code.
10:37:52 <AnMaster> oklopol, and some more places where bugs could happen
10:38:56 <oklopol> if your program has bugs, you're a bad programmer, and it's good you get some exercise rewriting trivial programs.
10:40:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, in any sufficiently complex programs, bugs do happen
10:40:18 <AnMaster> even if you are a good programmer
10:40:40 <oklopol> well, how about i never make anything that complex, and we'll just consider me a small-scale programmer
10:41:14 <AnMaster> oklopol, not even 1000 lines of code or so in any project?
10:41:21 <oklopol> that may well be the case, most programs worth writing are pretty short
10:41:39 <oklopol> well sure, but that's not "sufficiently complex"
10:41:59 <oklopol> i do some 300 lines per hour
10:42:09 <AnMaster> for example, cfunge got around 10000 lines of code according to a "smart line counter"
10:42:27 <AnMaster> that include blanks and comment
10:42:37 <oklopol> well cfunge has lots of stuff. i would get bored before getting bugged
10:42:46 <AnMaster> and with "smart line counter" I mean a program that can find what are actually comments and what are code.
10:43:13 <AnMaster> though amusingly it thinks one file is C++, I guess because I happen to use a C++ keyword as an identifier
10:45:20 <oklopol> err, just that the name is somewhat ironic
10:46:27 <AnMaster> oklopol, well it is the same software that site ohloh use
10:49:00 <oklopol> i don't know what that is :)
10:49:27 <AnMaster> oklopol, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohloh
10:50:19 <AnMaster> oklopol, anyway their line-of-code counter is rather good.
10:50:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, stuff like: http://rafb.net/p/4KJ7Ih69.html
10:51:22 <oklopol> so basically, it can parse the language, and calculate statements
10:52:04 <AnMaster> oklopol, well it does think so, it says c++ for one of the C headers. It does seem to have a slight problem keeping C and C++ apart, but that isn't easy indeed.
10:52:38 <oklopol> just parse as c, and if there's a problem, try c++
10:52:59 <AnMaster> oklopol, well I think it doesn't try to compile it, but does a simpler search
10:53:20 <AnMaster> also you could probably write a program valid in both C and C++, but where the code means different stuff
10:53:30 <AnMaster> even without resorting to #ifdef
10:53:48 <oklopol> in that case both are correct answers
10:55:26 <fizzie> Personally I'd just use the file suffix to decide the language; that's what gcc does, anyway.
10:56:12 <fizzie> Though admittedly deciding between Perl and Prolog for .pl needs some heuristics, at least.
10:56:12 <oklopol> well that's just cheating P:
10:56:39 <oklopol> well for perl and prolog you can probably just calculate some kinda entropy function
10:58:25 <fizzie> Although some people use .pro for Prolog, because of the Perl thing. Still, I think .pl is a lot more common.
11:03:38 <fizzie> Haskell files are usually .hs, and Schemers use .scm.
11:03:58 <fizzie> Although I've seen other Scheme file extensions than .scm too.
11:05:12 <fizzie> I think some PLT stuff is in ".ss" files.
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12:01:21 <oklopol> xD after debugging my graph equivalence checked for ages i now realize it worked all along
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12:53:52 <ehird> [[President Bush on Monday signed into law legislation creating a copyright czar, a cabinet-level position on par with the nation's drug czar.]]
12:53:55 <ehird> Intellectual property woo
13:00:26 <ehird> [[In the United States the title "czar" is a slang term for certain high-level civil servants, such as the "drug czar" for the head of the Drug Enforcement Administration, "terrorism czar" for a Presidential advisor on terrorism policy, "cybersecurity czar" for the highest-ranking Department of Homeland Security official on computer security and information security policy, and "war czar" to oversee the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.]]
13:37:54 <fizzie> Uh.. does the Funge-98 spec really say 'v' should go up? From catseye.tc: "subsequent lines increment the y coordinate" (so later lines get larger Y values), "delta is either (0,-1) (south), --" (so "south" means up towards earlier lines) and "the v "Go South" instruction causes the IP to travel south".
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13:49:04 <ehird> OO.o 3.0 is still a bloated, laggy, ugly-looking piece of shit!
13:49:31 <ehird> My god. That text rendering is just awful.
13:55:01 * AnMaster writes a "project creation request" at sf.net
13:55:12 <AnMaster> and I think either I or them will go mad by it
13:55:40 * AnMaster is unsure of the correct English form there
13:55:53 <AnMaster> ehird, and that is why you use LaTeX ;P
13:56:13 <ehird> OO.o is not for the same purpose as LaTeX
13:56:23 <ehird> also, sf.net should never be used
13:56:41 <AnMaster> ehird, can't think of any good download hosting elsewhere
13:56:52 <ehird> it's an open source site hosted on a closed source, big bucks platform, it's very slow, the interface pretty much sucks, and yeah.
13:57:02 <ehird> AnMaster: What is it for?
13:57:12 <AnMaster> "efunge is coded in the functional language Erlang as mentioned in the public description. While it currently doesn't differ much in the feature set from other Befunge-98 implementations, there are plans to take advantage of Erlang's unique actor-based concurrency model in the future. This would allow efunge taking advantage of the multi-core CPUs that are getting more and more common these days."
13:57:13 <ehird> I'll host it on eso-std.org
13:57:47 * AnMaster waits for ehird's comments on that
13:57:57 <ehird> I want to stab you anyway, so.
13:58:00 <ehird> But I'll host it on eso-std.org
13:58:33 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I think the software will be ready for a first release in maybe one week or two
13:58:56 <ehird> Sure. Whatever. I'll just put the tarballs or whatever up whenever you want.
13:59:05 <AnMaster> ehird, would you do same for cfunge? ;)
13:59:14 <AnMaster> not that I need it, since cfunge use sf.net for download hosting
13:59:22 <ehird> Now we don't have to find out!
14:00:20 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway read the website for Java2K
14:00:33 <ehird> Yeah, 'cept you're serious. :)
14:01:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I really was trying not to laugh loudly when I wrote it
14:01:32 <ehird> It wasn't that funny either. :D
14:01:47 <AnMaster> agreed, but somewhat same style as Java2K
14:08:26 <AnMaster> http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/efunge/
14:11:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Please style html's background, not body.
14:11:48 <ehird> Otherwise it looks ridiculous
14:12:09 <ehird> The page is white, but the actual content has your barely-differenciated background.
14:12:13 <ehird> It just looks like a bug in the page.
14:12:20 <AnMaster> html{color:#000;font-family:sans-serif;background:#fcfcfc}
14:12:33 <ehird> (I would just not style such a simple page at all, tbh)
14:13:10 <ehird> Both renderings are correct, I believe
14:13:17 <ehird> It depends on the default height/width of body.
14:13:38 <AnMaster> ehird, does it look better now?
14:13:52 <ehird> Although personally I don't quite like the colour scheme.
14:14:46 <AnMaster> well, with all respect I like a slightly off-wite colour
14:14:54 <ehird> Your choice, of course
14:15:03 <ehird> I was responding to "does it look better now".
14:15:27 <AnMaster> ehird, what browser were you using?
14:15:48 <ehird> (With the Safari chrome, obviously.)
14:15:58 <AnMaster> ah was about to ask about that
14:16:16 <ehird> I believe that Konqueror should display the same.
14:16:21 <ehird> If not, well, something changed somewhere.
14:16:42 <ehird> 4 hasn't mixed back WebKit.
14:16:45 <ehird> So that's not really relevant.
14:18:16 <ehird> http://blog.davglass.com/files/yui/bacon/ Finally! A good use of JavaScript!
14:49:49 <AnMaster> "SourceForge operates SourceForge.net, Slashdot, Linux.com, IT Manager's Journal, NewsForge, and Freshmeat. SourceForge licensed SourceForge Enterprise Edition to enterprise organizations. ThinkGeek — an ecommerce site — is also under the SourceForge banner."
14:50:17 <AnMaster> source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sourceforge,_Inc.
14:50:29 <AnMaster> and that would explain why several of those sites suck
14:50:54 <AnMaster> at least those that I ever checked... sf.net, freshmeat slashdot and thinkgeek
14:55:16 <ehird> AnMaster: you should see their app setup
14:55:18 <ehird> it's a horrible java thing
14:55:20 <ehird> that has to be run as a VM
14:55:26 <ehird> and they charge like $5,000 for it
14:55:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh they do.
14:56:07 <ehird> You know those crop of "forges" using a look-alike software?
14:56:09 <AnMaster> there got to be better alternatives
14:56:14 <ehird> That was forked from when SourceForge was FOSS.
14:56:25 <AnMaster> ehird, well berlios use a fork of the old foss version iirc
14:56:27 <ehird> Before they made it proprietary crap.
14:56:45 <ehird> But yes, there are better options.
14:56:57 <AnMaster> ehird, we just got to wait for launchpad to go open source ;P
14:56:58 <ehird> A _decent_ option, of course, would integrate it all with git.
14:57:00 * ehird gets mauled by AnMaster
14:57:07 <ehird> Also, launchpad is awful. In my experience.
14:57:15 <AnMaster> ehird, better than sf.net at least
14:57:18 <ehird> (Plus I dislike Canonical. "Inc".)
14:57:23 <ehird> AnMaster: What isn't?
14:57:31 <ehird> Okay, okay, maybe Microsoft CodeProject.
14:57:36 <ehird> But apart from that, come on, don't mock the retard.
14:58:00 <AnMaster> didn't know the name of the microsoft one
14:58:01 <ehird> Noo, it's okay, you're really open source.
14:58:07 <ehird> No, no, I know people are saying you're not.
14:58:12 <ehird> You're a good little thing.
14:58:23 <AnMaster> ehird, what about google code?
14:58:56 <ehird> Google code is good, actually. It only supports SVN though, and, of course, is closed source so you're tied to google.
14:58:59 <ehird> I wouldn't put a large project on google code.
14:59:09 <AnMaster> I wouldn't put any project there
14:59:09 <ehird> (Note: cfunge is not large)
14:59:30 <ehird> But I was just waiting for you to claim your enterpriseyness.
14:59:40 <AnMaster> which is why I actually use launchpad for mirroring branches
14:59:50 <AnMaster> since it can handle the DVCS I use
15:00:27 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway if I ever need to change from bzr, it will either be darcs or mercurial
15:00:34 <ehird> http://www.aeroxp.org/2008/10/introducing-windows-7/ <- Someone at microsoft can't count
15:00:35 <AnMaster> and I don't want a fight about that now
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15:04:28 <ehird> Heh. I wonder if Agora will have a coinciding economic crisis to the real world.
15:04:46 <ehird> I *did* just start a CRAZY COMMUNIST BANK AUTOMATON there yesterday
15:04:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Beats me :D
15:05:07 <ehird> It would if I made my magical paypal<->agora bridge contract thing though
15:05:09 <ehird> Which nobody would use
15:05:11 <ehird> Because who is that crazy
15:06:29 <AnMaster> also you mean like paying for agora money with real money?
15:07:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | chaos theoy, fractals, etc?.
15:07:18 <ehird> AnMaster: I was thinking a trade system.
15:07:36 <ehird> Pay person money via paypal --> person is agora-required to give you the assets
15:09:12 <ehird> of course I'd probably hook it up into the People's Bank of Agora (the silly COMMUNIST PEOPLE BANK I made yesterday intended to overthrow the Reformed Bank of Agora)
15:09:19 <AnMaster> and what about conversion ratios
15:09:20 <ehird> so that you could get some actually useful stuff out of it
15:09:33 <ehird> (you'd send the money to the Coinkeepor)
15:09:58 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd probably set 1 People's Bank of Agora coin = 1 penny, but I should probably pick a more stable country.
15:10:12 <ehird> but idiomatic is "exchange rates"
15:10:23 <AnMaster> ehird, also shouldn't it be floating, like the real ones?
15:10:37 <ehird> But am I that bored? :-)
15:10:42 <AnMaster> You know, Agora money on the international currency market
15:10:58 <ehird> AnMaster: That would roughly coincide with Agora becoming the law of an island we claim.
15:11:01 <ehird> (Probably a traffic island.)
15:11:15 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_island
15:11:40 <ehird> we could all squeeze on!
15:11:53 <ehird> Anyway, the People's Bank of Agora actually does have floating exchange rates.
15:12:28 <ehird> Every currency has an exchange rate which is initially 10.
15:12:39 <ehird> "Every midnight (UTC) that the PBA has zero of a given Eligible Currency,
15:12:39 <ehird> that currency's exchange rate goes up by 2. Every Monday midnight (UTC) that the
15:12:39 <ehird> PBA has a non-zero amount of a given Eligible Currency, that currency's exchange
15:12:40 <ehird> rate goes down by 2."
15:12:41 <AnMaster> well I never understood how floating exchange rates were calculated in the real world even
15:12:52 <ehird> when you deposit something for coins
15:13:02 <ehird> the currency that you deposited's exchange rate goes down by 1
15:13:10 <ehird> and if you withdraw some of that currency it goes up by one
15:13:26 <AnMaster> ehird, is it possible to make money from that?
15:13:36 <ehird> You mean, for the bank to make money?
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15:13:59 <AnMaster> like convert to gain more back and forth as needed
15:14:13 <ehird> It goes down on deposit, up one withdraw.
15:14:16 <ehird> So it'd just keep batting and batting.
15:14:31 <ehird> You can, however, make a profit overnight.
15:14:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, yes...
15:15:09 <AnMaster> "that currency's exchange rate goes up by 2"
15:15:24 <ehird> AnMaster: exchange rate for currency X = how many coins X is worth
15:15:29 <ehird> i.e., how many coins you get depositing one X
15:15:35 <ehird> or how many coins you have to spend to get one X
15:15:40 <AnMaster> yes so you can get 1:2, right?
15:15:56 <ehird> You're mixing up midnight changes with deposit/withdraw changes
15:16:00 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't do a large bulk transaction?
15:16:06 <ehird> anyway, 2 coins profit overnight is a LOT
15:16:12 <ehird> that's 20% of your cost for one asset back
15:16:16 <ehird> since the default rate is 10
15:16:25 <ehird> the rates will bubble up to like 50 soon enough, I imagine.
15:16:55 <ehird> I'll paste the entire contract to a pastebin if you want, it's short and doesn't have that much agoraspeak.
15:18:56 <ais523> ehird: you were talking about the PBA in #esoteric? How evil!
15:22:34 <ais523> <oklopol> ais523: do you have an algorithm for eodermdomizing a graph? <--- not yet, but I should be able to think of one
15:23:01 <ais523> <fizzie> Though admittedly deciding between Perl and Prolog for .pl needs some heuristics, at least. <--- I thought Prolog was .pro...
15:23:19 <ehird> and it used it before perl
15:24:34 <ais523> ehird: I read through Prolog manuals before Perl was invented, and they used .pro
15:24:49 <ais523> so I suspect that both were in common usage, even before Perl arrived and muddled the situation
15:28:35 <fizzie> Prolog is also .pro, yes.
15:29:19 <fizzie> But at least SWI-Prolog uses .pl by default; the manual does say .pro is a common alternative if you want to change the default extension.
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15:52:36 <oerjan> <fizzie> Haskell files are usually .hs, and Schemers use .scm.
15:52:46 <oerjan> also .lhs, for literate syntax
15:53:00 <ais523> TECO invented literate programming before it was invented
15:53:06 <ais523> its effective comment marker is a toggle-comment
15:53:18 <ais523> so literate programs end up equivalent to illiterate programs
15:53:34 <ais523> "effective comment marker", because TECO comments are done by creating labels with implausible names
16:00:20 <oerjan> <ehird> Heh. I wonder if Agora will have a coinciding economic crisis to the real world.
16:01:00 <oerjan> doesn't Agora have economic crises more often than the world economy changes at all?
16:01:38 <ehird> Well... if by "crises" you mean "someone gets infinite of a currency and they make a clone contract without the flaw"...
16:06:20 <oerjan> <ais523> <oklopol> ais523: do you have an algorithm for eodermdomizing a graph? <--- not yet, but I should be able to think of one
16:06:41 <oerjan> from what i could see an optimal solution solves the hamiltonian graph problem :D
16:06:57 <ais523> for a planar graph, a nice simple awful algorithm would be to eodermdromize each region individually recursively
16:07:09 <oerjan> i'm wrong, it's the eulerian graph problem
16:07:22 <oerjan> which is easily solvable
16:07:24 <ais523> yes, that probably leads to an efficient solution
16:07:45 <ais523> hmm... it's very easy to tell if a graph's Eulerian
16:08:01 <ais523> trying to find the shortest eodermdromizing if it isn't is potentially interesting, though
16:08:12 <ais523> presumably you try all possible pairs of odd vertices to double the paths between
16:09:32 <oerjan> hm this sounds like it should be a known problem.
16:09:43 <ais523> it is, I remember reading about it in a textbook somewhere
16:09:50 <ais523> unfortunately I can't remember what it's called, or what the solution was
16:13:05 <oerjan> ah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_inspection_problem
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20:20:42 <pikhq> That -Os recompile?
20:20:46 <pikhq> Holy fuck did it help.
20:20:53 <ais523> does that mean it did, or didn't?
20:21:16 <ais523> what did it help with?
20:21:37 <pikhq> Speed and memory usage.
20:22:19 <oerjan> not to mention global warming, teeth decay and belly button lint
20:22:31 <pikhq> Low cache size, relatively small amount of memory, and slow swap means that -O2 system-wide is not all that beneficial...
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20:30:48 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Space wasn't *that* much of an issue.
20:31:26 <slereah> CODE... IN... SPAAAAAAACE!
20:35:24 <slereah> 256 bytes sounds pretty early
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20:35:36 <slereah> You could probably build that with an analytic engine
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21:09:55 <oerjan> optbot: no fair, that has expired
21:09:55 <optbot> oerjan: you might want to try this: +[>print<[,----------]+]
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21:30:22 <ais523> +ul (is this still working?)S
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21:40:31 <fizzie> A little bit slower...
21:40:39 <ais523> is that using the BF version of Underload?
21:40:49 <fizzie> It's still the Brainfuck one, haven't had time to fungotize the Funge-98 implementation I did.
21:40:52 <fungot> fizzie: i use a lot more
21:42:02 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/bef$ echo '(:aSS):aSS' | ~/inst/rcfunge/rcfunge/funge -S underload.b98
21:42:31 <ais523> hmm... have you posted that program online anywhere?
21:42:36 <ais523> it would be interesting to see how it works
21:43:58 <fizzie> It works pretty much by doing exactly what the command descriptions in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload say. STRN fingerprint G/P/A commands are used to manipulate strings, and the stack is kept on one line of zero-terminated strings in Funge-space, growing to the negative direction.
21:44:41 <fizzie> It is also utterly boring and readable Befunge code. :/
21:44:43 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/underload.b98.txt
21:45:12 <ais523> yep, looks simple enough
21:45:36 <fizzie> And RC/Funge-98 fails on anything that tries to concatenate two strings whose total length is 1000 characters or more, due to the use of a fixed-size buffer and strcat.
21:45:47 <ais523> also, the word "unterminated" looks great when written backwards
21:46:11 <fizzie> That one is also nice.
21:46:22 <fizzie> (It's in fungot sources when it loads the fingerprints.)
21:46:22 <fungot> fizzie: " that", which was the size before?
21:46:48 <ais523> ah, concatting long strings is kind-of common in Underload...
21:47:10 <fizzie> Yes, the factorial program on esolangs.org only works for inputs up to 6.
21:47:37 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/bef$ echo '(:::::::):(:((^:()~((:)*~^)a~*^!!()~^))~*()~^^)~(^a(*~^)*a~*()~^!()~^)a~**^!!^S' | ~/inst/rcfunge/rcfunge/funge -S underload.b98
21:49:41 <fizzie> Fibonacci gets up to 610, the next one (which should actually be only 987 stars) segfaults.
21:51:39 <fizzie> The 99 bottles of beer song works, though. (If I strip newlines -- the program input in the standalone version stops at \n.)
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22:07:44 <fizzie> The Funge version isn't especially _fast_, but it's really a couple of magnitudes faster than the Brainfuck-on-Funge version. ~14 seconds to run 99 bottles of beer.
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22:10:19 <olsner> heh, something for an esoteric shootout that :P
22:10:46 <ais523> hmm... I wonder how it competes against the Thutu version?
22:13:52 <fizzie> Don't have a Thutu implementation or the Thutu Underload thing. Are they available somewhere?
22:14:30 <ais523> now I just have to remember where
22:14:54 <ais523> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/thutu/
22:15:18 <ais523> also, Thutu always looks like that
22:15:21 <ais523> at least when I write it
22:15:25 <ais523> probably other people would be cleaner
22:15:37 <ais523> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/thutu/src/ul.t2 is the Underload interpreter
22:15:49 <ais523> and http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/thutu/impl/thutu.pl is a Thutu to Perl compiler
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22:17:19 <fizzie> I implemented ^ so that it just places the string on top of the stack so that its last character replaces the ^; then suitably decrements the "current instruction" value so that it starts incrementing. That means that something like (:^foobar):^ will make the program extend into negative X coordinates of the funge-space.
22:18:44 <ais523> yes, that sounds like a reasonable implementation
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22:22:49 <fizzie> Well, I did "perl thutu.pl < ul.t2 > ul.pl" and then "time cat 99.ul | perl ul.pl"... on this system it takes ~22 seconds to run the same 99-bottles-of-beer program.
22:22:59 <ais523> yes, I'm not surprised
22:23:09 <ais523> when long strings are involved
22:23:16 <ais523> it slows down when it's trying to store more in memory
22:23:27 <ais523> sort of like BF programs slow down when thinking about large numbers
22:23:47 <fizzie> Now I'm hoping AnMaster won't notice the useless use of cat there in the timing. :p
22:24:02 <ais523> wait, that isn't a useless use of cat
22:24:07 <ais523> it actually took slightly longer
22:24:17 <ais523> you're timing how long it takes cat to pipe its information into the Underload interp
22:24:21 <ais523> rather than the Underload interp itself
22:24:31 <ais523> time perl ul.pl < 99.ul would take slightly longer, I suspect
22:24:57 <fizzie> I think bash's "time" times the whole pipeline, actually. It's not a real command.
22:26:25 <fizzie> Yes; bash manpage: "The format for a pipeline is: [time [-p]] [ ! ] command [ | command2 ... ] -- If the time reserved word precedes a pipeline, the elapsed as well as user and system time consumed by its execution are reported when the pipeline terminates."
22:28:43 <ais523> Thutu's kind-of hard to write in, because the entire program's in a loop and the end of the loop is the only place you can do I/O
22:28:49 <ais523> so you have to do a lot of state-saving and such
22:29:28 <ais523> it's a nice lang apart from that and the huge inefficiency, though, sometimes I use wimpmode Thutu to write things if I can't think of any other way to write them
22:37:32 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: interesting
22:37:43 <ais523> there are notes on a native-INTERCAL processor somewhere
22:37:50 <ais523> but native Befunge-93 would probably be easier
22:39:30 <fizzie> I had vague notions of designing a Befunge coprocessor for the "design a MIPS CPU" course -- the project-work was graded so that you got the best grade if you added "any coprosessor you like" -- officially you were supposed to do the MIPS FPU coprosessor, for which the specs were given, but that wasn't actually a "must".
22:40:01 <fizzie> Then I just skipped the course and did some signal-processing instead. :/
22:40:18 <ais523> why would anyone want a Befunge coprocessor?
22:40:26 <ais523> actually, this is #esoteric, scratch that
22:40:40 <fizzie> Well, you could run your Befunge programs faster.
22:40:55 <ais523> 'twould be pretty hard to get compilers to make use of that, I'd think...
22:41:37 <fizzie> Maybe. Although it could be more like a Befunge device than a "coprocessor" in the traditional sense.
22:44:16 <ais523> now I want to invent an esolang which can only be efficiently interpreted by a high-end GPU
22:44:23 <ais523> and CPUs are ridiculously slow at
22:44:31 <ais523> but I'm not really sure how GPUs work, so I don't think I can
22:47:10 <fizzie> The GPU programming languages (like Nvidia's Cg) seem a bit esoteric already, the little that I've seen of them.
22:47:34 <ais523> actually, most programming languages are eso
22:47:47 <ais523> if they're intended for anything but running on a standard processor
22:49:30 <bsmntbombdood> the easiest way would be to force execution to be massively paralell
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22:51:51 <oklopol> 00:29… ais523: it's a nice lang apart from that and the huge inefficiency, though, sometimes I use wimpmode Thutu to write things if I can't think of any other way to write them <<< did you mean you sometimes use thutu's wimpmode when you can't think of a way to write a program in conventional languages?
22:52:12 <ais523> the only known Forte interp's written in wimpmode Thutu
22:52:18 <ais523> I couldn't think of another way to do it
22:52:26 <ais523> other than effectively compiling the Thutu in my head and writing Perl
22:52:38 <oklopol> i was first asking that as a joke, then realized it's actually more probably you *did* mean it that way
22:53:25 <oklopol> perhaps i should try thutu too, can't be that bad
22:54:27 <ais523> IIRC, oerjan tried and never got very far
22:54:58 <bsmntbombdood> a way to design a language were execution has to be paralell
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08:09:55 <oklopol> orrorrorrorrorrorrorrorrorrorro
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09:38:33 <oklocod> was gonna ask what 01101001100101101001011001101001... is, but realized there's a more trivial way to produce it, that everyone knows already.
09:39:11 <oerjan> Morse-Thue Morse-Thue Morse-Thue Morse-Thue Morse-Thue Morse-Thue
09:39:39 <oerjan> it's the Morse-Thue sequence
09:40:45 <oerjan> hm apparently wp and mathworld switch the words
09:40:58 <oklocod> well, can you guess where i bumped into that? the course is called microprocessors
09:41:32 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thue-Morse_sequence#History
09:41:38 <oklocod> i had a program in my error because i initially thought that sequence was 01010101010... before i started thinking
09:41:49 <oerjan> it was one of my advisor's favorite examples
09:42:25 <oklocod> there's nothing about uses there
09:42:40 <oerjan> you asked why the name
09:42:52 <oklocod> answer to my earlier question, right
09:43:30 <oklocod> glad i am now in the long list of mathematicians to discover that.
09:44:36 <oklocod> (them microprocessors contain an bites...)
09:45:52 <oerjan> is this parity of bits connected?
09:46:35 <oklocod> to inc, we prepend a 1, and then do everything we've done sofar
09:46:50 <oklocod> prepending a 1 will do nothing but swap all 1's and 0's
09:47:12 <oerjan> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Thue-MorseSequence.html has that as the second way to generate the sequence in Mathematica (of 6)
09:47:24 <oklocod> *prepending a 1 will do nothing but complement all parities
09:47:44 <oklocod> so we always duplicate what we have, but complemented
09:47:50 <oerjan> (the first is the one that connected it with my PhD work)
09:49:14 <oklocod> i'm probably not yet old enough to try reading that, btw?
09:55:30 <oklocod> my magimatical powers aren't that developed yet
09:55:36 <oklocod> mathemagical would be better
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13:46:52 <AnMaster> There is Scheme. There is also XML Schema. So why not also XML Scheme? It is just a one letter difference.
13:47:13 <AnMaster> and I think it may even be possible in theory, though horrible
13:51:22 <fizzie> There's SXML -- XML data as S-expressions.
13:56:14 <ehird> AnMaster: It's not a very interesting idea.
13:56:18 <ehird> Also it's a trivial one.
13:56:29 <ehird> I wish your "awful ideas" were more awful :|
13:56:39 <ehird> but yes, been considered before.
13:57:01 <ehird> This excellent article draws the parallel to xml in the introduction: http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html
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14:00:28 <ehird> AnMaster: You'll like this -
14:00:36 <ehird> GCC-XML was made by the same people as your beloved CMake.
14:00:39 <ehird> Where's your god now?!
14:01:50 <fizzie> Still, it's only a "C++ to XML so that GCC frontend can be used for parsing easier" tool, not a "XML syntax for C++ for GCC input" one. The latter would be more awful.
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14:13:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I like some stuff you done, but not everything? Your point?
14:14:06 <AnMaster> <ehird> GCC-XML was made by the same people as your beloved CMake.
14:14:06 <AnMaster> <ehird> Where's your god now?!
14:14:16 <ehird> i was being silly.
14:14:30 <AnMaster> ehird, and I never claimed cmake was perfect
14:14:38 <ehird> i was being silly.
14:14:40 <AnMaster> just less terrible than autotools
14:14:48 <ehird> yay second time lucky
14:16:06 <AnMaster> ehird, well I read it first time, but changing that would mean the irc-line pipeline would have to be discarded. Somewhat like the Pentium 4 pipeline ;P
14:16:44 <ehird> ah you're obsolete
14:17:39 <AnMaster> ehird, no a pentium 4 would have a pipeline of 200 lines or so
14:44:51 <Deewiant> the latest pentium 4 models had a 31-stage pipeline
15:07:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | If A and B are either registers, either given integers and C is register, the.
15:21:22 <GregorR> Uh oh, they're making the Pandoras with LEGOs! http://www.openpandora.de/images/padtop.jpg
15:22:17 <ehird> I think you mean LEGO(TM) bricks
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15:31:07 <AnMaster> <GregorR> Uh oh, they're making the Pandoras with LEGOs! http://www.openpandora.de/images/padtop.jpg <--?
15:31:26 <AnMaster> What has that image got to do with Greek mythology? Or was it Roman?
15:31:53 <GregorR> The Pandora is a (poorly-named) open source game system.
15:32:10 <AnMaster> well I can't read that German site
15:32:22 <GregorR> Only the image is relevant X_X
15:32:26 <GregorR> openpandora.org for English
15:33:03 <AnMaster> well it looks like a lego base plate but with an unusual shape
15:33:24 <AnMaster> GregorR, however notice the base of the "studs" are slightly tilted?
15:33:38 <AnMaster> I suspect it wouldn't actually fit with real lego due to that
15:33:44 <ehird> GregorR: if AnMaster ever bugs you about a joke, don't ever reply x_x
15:33:47 <AnMaster> even if the studs are the right size otherwise
15:33:54 <GregorR> ehird: I should've remembered that :P
15:34:17 <AnMaster> well considering I had no clue what Pandora was in this context, how should I know it was a joke?
15:34:26 <AnMaster> for all I know it could have been some lego related product
15:34:40 <ehird> "Oh no they're making the mythological character ut of LEGOs!"
15:34:46 <ehird> I think Occam's Razor applies here.
15:34:54 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> What has that image got to do with Greek mythology? Or was it Roman?
15:35:01 <GregorR> I wonder if anybody looked up the mythological figure Pandora before naming this game system :P
15:35:07 <ehird> Oh look, I just broke my own rule.
15:35:26 <GregorR> "Cool, my new Pandora arrived. Time to open it! Haw haw haw, look, all the evil in the universe just came out of my new game system."
15:35:32 <AnMaster> ehird, if it had been some lego model looking like mythology related then sure it would have made sense
15:35:40 <AnMaster> so I suspect that was step 1 of the building instruction
15:36:19 <GregorR> So ehird, how's life in $YOUR_COUNTRY_OF_RESIDENCE. How's $YOUR_EMPLOYER_OR_UNIVERSITY treating you?
15:36:25 <AnMaster> GregorR, I have never heard of a game system called pandora :P
15:36:41 <AnMaster> GregorR, err, he is too young for either of those
15:36:42 <ehird> GregorR: Good! And the second variable is null. :-P
15:37:05 <GregorR> "UNIVERSITY" is taken to mean any educational institution at any level.
15:37:16 <ehird> I reject your semantics and substitute my own.
15:37:23 <ehird> "UNIVERSITY" means "a fine summer's day"
15:37:26 <ehird> In which case, very nicely!
15:37:31 <AnMaster> hm ehird, what school level are you in now? I don't know the English school system very well
15:37:33 <ehird> Even though it is not a fine summer's day
15:37:46 <GregorR> ehird: I reject your parody of Adam Savage and substitute my own.
15:37:46 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know the Swedish system, so beats me :D
15:38:05 <AnMaster> ehird, what is it called in English then? Primary school? Or is that for younger?
15:38:20 <AnMaster> I got no clue how the English school system works as I said :P
15:38:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Depends which Swedish level you are talking about :P
15:38:29 <ehird> Melab ha made more edits!
15:38:45 <ehird> Let's see if they're any good
15:38:48 <AnMaster> well I was wondering what the English name for it was ehird
15:38:59 <ehird> AnMaster: for -what-
15:39:39 <AnMaster> ehird, the school "level" or whatever you are in. Like "university" "high school" or such
15:39:50 <AnMaster> I don't know what the word for the collection of those are
15:40:00 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_Kingdom
15:40:08 <ehird> Or rather http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_England
15:41:15 <ehird> AnMaster: (the bottom line in the graph thingy there, 3 tier system)
15:41:19 <AnMaster> well from what I know of you and from what that page says, it would be "secondary school"?
15:42:02 <Asztal> heh, I'd never heard of the 3-tier system and I live in England
15:42:30 <ehird> AnMaster: I haven't actually heard it being called "upper school" so I can't say for certain.
15:42:55 <ehird> AnMaster: If it's the same thing as it looks like on that graph, I'd call it high school.
15:43:02 <Asztal> Every school I've seen up north has been the second kind.
15:43:16 <ais523> AnMaster: here in England we have primary school, secondary school, college (which is sometimes part of secondary school), and sometimes university
15:43:20 <ehird> I live up north too.
15:43:29 <ehird> ais523: Not in the 3-tier system.
15:43:52 <ehird> I haven't ever seen a non-3-tier school, there was some hullabaloo about people complaining about switching schools to 3-tier a few years ago.
15:44:08 <GregorR> College is a separate level from University?
15:44:14 <ais523> GregorR: 6th form college
15:44:14 <ehird> Maybe I live in BIZZARO BRITAIN
15:44:22 <ehird> GregorR: That's always bemused me too
15:44:23 <ais523> it's when you do A levels
15:44:32 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_oldest_university_in_England_debate
15:44:34 <ehird> best page title EVER
15:44:42 <GregorR> A University is just a collection of Colleges in the US :P
15:45:02 <ais523> this reminds me of the edit war about whether to link to http://thethirdbestwebsiteintheuniverse.com or http://the3rdbestwebsiteintheuniverse.com
15:45:23 <AnMaster> Well in Sweden we have grundskola then gymnasie, then university. Grundskolan (Adding an n here means same as "the" in English) is usually divided in three stages, lower, middle, upper. Usually lower and middle stages are co-located at the same school, and the upper stage is often located separately
15:45:54 <AnMaster> I don't know why that is so, maybe because they start teaching chemistry and physics in the upper stage ;)
15:46:04 <GregorR> Presumably grundskola is Swedish for "grunge school" and gymnasie is Swedish for "gymnasium"
15:46:09 <ais523> oh, there's also nursery before primary school, but that's optional and many children never go to nursery
15:46:29 <ais523> college is optional too, but you're generally considered stupid if you fail to go there (unlike university, where many people never go)
15:46:34 <ehird> I went to nursery!
15:46:40 <ais523> so did I, as it happens
15:46:46 <AnMaster> GregorR, gymnasium and gymnasie are both valid spellings of the same word, meaning the same. Just a case of language changing over time I think
15:46:47 <ehird> ais523: this reminds me of the edit war about whether to link to http://thethirdbestwebsiteintheuniverse.com or http://the3rdbestwebsiteintheuniverse.com
15:46:55 <AnMaster> GregorR, and "gymnasie" is like high school
15:47:03 <GregorR> I went to the US equivalent of nursery school (preschool)
15:47:15 <AnMaster> grundskolan is like "basic school", literally translated
15:47:16 <ais523> ehird: you get edit wars about all sorts of silly things
15:47:16 <ehird> also, grunge school is an awesome name
15:47:20 <ehird> I'm going to GRUNGE SCHOOOOOOOL
15:47:21 <ehird> ais523: what article
15:47:23 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=WP:LAME is one of my favourite humor pages
15:48:15 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Best_Page_in_the_Universe
15:48:21 <ais523> sorry, I found it quickly
15:48:24 <ais523> but the copy-and-paste was weird
15:48:29 <ais523> it kept higlighting backwards for some reason
15:48:45 <ais523> and I meant page not website
15:48:54 <ais523> although presumably the URLs I gave are also taken by now...
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16:04:23 * ais523 starts one of eir assignments for University
16:04:35 <ais523> I'm amused, because it uses Booleans with 9 different possible values
16:04:46 <ais523> none of which are FILE_NOT_FOUND, unfortunately
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16:31:50 <psygnisfive> conversing with yourself can be like that, i imagine
16:32:07 <ais523> ah, I'm conversing with other people elsewhere
16:34:02 <ais523> I don't mind monologuing really
16:34:06 <ais523> as #esoteric has lots of logreaderes
16:35:13 <AnMaster> ais523, "Booleans with 9 different possible values"?
16:35:18 <AnMaster> Do you have time telling more?
16:35:27 <ais523> it's in one of the IEEE standards
16:35:32 <ais523> to represent real physical booleans
16:35:39 <ais523> which are normally 0 or 1
16:35:46 <ais523> but can take on all sorts of other values in weird cases
16:36:00 <ais523> inside a computer, wires are normally at 0V or 5V for 0 or 1
16:36:05 <ais523> but there are other possibilities
16:36:13 <ais523> for instance, a wire might be held at 0V via a resistor
16:36:17 <AnMaster> ais523, aren't boolans *defined* as being either true/false, with implementation defined values for true and false?
16:36:25 <ais523> AnMaster: depends on the language
16:36:34 <ais523> if you're simulating hardware, they're defined to have 9 possible values
16:36:43 <ais523> even C has 3 values for booleans, really
16:36:46 <ais523> true/false/uninitialised
16:37:02 <ais523> the 9 possible values includes 3 sorts of uninitialised
16:37:04 <AnMaster> ais523, that only applies to non-static variables
16:37:12 <AnMaster> iirc static variables are initialised to 0
16:37:14 <ais523> but still, do you see what I'm getting at
16:37:17 <AnMaster> I *think* it is in the standard
16:37:20 <fizzie> Hey, you are all probably experts in this field: I have this plate made out of "compound marble" (a sort of marble/plastic composite material, apparently) and I need two circular holes in it (with diameters of 34 and 45 mm). Where can I find a company (in Finland, preferrably Espoo) that can make me such holes?
16:37:25 <ais523> (or NULL for pointers)
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16:37:36 <fizzie> (but 0 in a pointer context _is_ NULL)
16:37:41 <AnMaster> ais523, that is only because NULL is defined to be 0
16:37:54 <ais523> NULL can have a non-zero value
16:38:05 <ais523> a literal constant integer 0 gets converted to NULL when casted to a pointer, though
16:38:12 <ais523> unlike a non-constant integer with the value 0
16:38:43 <ais523> anyway, there's no reason why a C interp couldn't assign an "uninitialised" value to variables before they were initialised
16:38:44 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure you can have the macro 'NULL' defined to a nonzero value.
16:38:47 <AnMaster> anyway yeah true/false are defined differently in different languages. Bash inverts it for example, 0 is true, non-zero is false
16:38:48 <ais523> and error when they encountered it
16:38:57 <ais523> fizzie: no, you can't, only (0) or ((void*)0)
16:39:01 <ais523> but (int)NULL can be nonzero
16:39:23 <ais523> so, VHDL has 9 possible values of std_logic_bits (which are effectively booleans)
16:39:37 <ais523> then weak 0 and weak 1 which are like 0 and 1 except if there's a short circuit
16:39:49 <AnMaster> and at least some languages seems to use special types, such as scheme (#t, #f) erlang (the atoms: true, false)
16:39:58 <ais523> then there's X, which means you have a short circuit that actually catches fire
16:40:07 <ais523> W which means you've got a value somewhere between 0 and 1
16:40:20 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway couldn't you define +6V to be true? or whatever
16:40:23 <ais523> - for if you explicitly don't care
16:40:32 <ais523> and Z for a wire which isn't connected at all
16:41:03 <AnMaster> ais523, and +6.5V, +7V, and so on. So there are an infinite number of "true"
16:41:15 <AnMaster> depending on the current circuit
16:41:25 <ais523> in practice 0V and 5V are most commonly used
16:41:34 <ais523> except RS-232 uses -12V and +12V because it's weird
16:41:43 <AnMaster> ais523, no idea, but maybe you want to use less in a low power application?
16:41:53 <AnMaster> don't know if that would make sense
16:42:00 <ais523> well, probably, I suspect inside processors they only use millivolts
16:42:05 <ais523> this is rather beside the point, though
16:42:19 <ais523> as 01LHXWU-Z logic works fine no matter what voltages you use
16:42:33 <AnMaster> ais523, also what was that about fire?
16:42:45 <ais523> if you connect 0 to 1 directly in simulation, you get X
16:42:51 <ais523> if you try it in real life something normally catches fire
16:43:00 <ais523> as you're shorting out the power supply
16:43:07 <fizzie> ais523: Usually something just turns off.
16:43:20 <ais523> well, fuses are designed to catch fire first
16:43:25 <ais523> to save the rest of the circuit
16:43:41 <AnMaster> ais523, err aren't some like fuses you just press a button to re-arm?
16:43:43 <ais523> fizzie: clearly you work with much higher-grade power supplies than I normally do...
16:43:51 <ais523> AnMaster: those are circuit breakers, yes
16:43:55 <ais523> they're fuse-like but resettable
16:44:00 <ais523> and don't need to catch fire to work
16:44:09 <ais523> they're a lot more expensive than fuses, though
16:44:16 <ais523> so normally they're only used for buildings
16:44:22 <ais523> rather than individual plugs
16:44:57 <AnMaster> ais523, I think I have seen it used for individual plugs... in a physics classroom :D
16:45:07 <ais523> well, I wouldn't blame them for doing it there
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16:45:15 <Slereah_> I was in a physics classroom :(
16:45:26 <Slereah_> We did bitwise operation this morning, for some reason
16:45:31 <fizzie> ais523: I don't really do electronics, but I think computer power supplies quite often manage to turn off instead of catching fire if there's a short somewhere.
16:45:45 <ais523> fizzie: sometimes, often the chip in question burns out first
16:46:05 <ais523> after a while as an electronic engineer, you can detect short circuits by temperature
16:46:12 <ais523> (if it burns your hand, there's a short circuit...)
16:46:13 <AnMaster> get hot? Then what is the point of the fan in the power supply?
16:46:19 <ais523> AnMaster: hotter even than that
16:46:32 <ais523> modern computers get hot even without short circuits
16:46:38 <ais523> but short circuits make them still hotter
16:46:53 <AnMaster> yeah, touching a pentium 4 would burn your hand, even if there wasn't a short circuit
16:47:14 <AnMaster> I seen a p4 run fine at 60 C or so
16:47:37 <ais523> you have to be careful at those sort of temperatures
16:47:45 <ais523> as most hard drives start forgetting data at about 52 degrees C
16:47:48 <fizzie> The on-chip temperature thing on this Athlon X2 says it's running at 35 degrees (core 0) / 30 degrees (core 1).
16:47:52 <AnMaster> my current cpu, a sempron, only reach above 40 C on very hot days, currently it is 32 C
16:48:29 <ais523> oh btw: AnMaster: ehird: are you happy with how you're credited in the current C-INTERCAL README?
16:48:37 <AnMaster> ais523, well the case had a fan in the front iirc on that computer, and the hardrives where close to that, also one fan in the back, then one on the CPU, then one in the PSU
16:48:46 <ais523> ehird: with your real name
16:48:52 <AnMaster> ais523, I ask same question as ehird, and for what?
16:49:04 <ais523> AnMaster: for finding bugs
16:49:14 <AnMaster> ais523, fine with real name, but don't include any email
16:49:30 <ehird> you can include my email if you wanted but i don't have a permanent one atm
16:49:34 <ais523> http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/NEWS
16:49:43 <ehird> as i'm likely going to start publicizing my @ehird.net one once I get that
16:49:45 <fizzie> Re INTERCAL, the Wikipedia article -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTERCAL -- has broken links for references #2 and #5.
16:49:55 <fizzie> Someone who regularly edits that thing might fix them.
16:50:08 <ais523> fizzie: good to know, I may fix them at some point
16:50:08 <AnMaster> ais523, who reported the -F issue?
16:50:12 <ehird> they are both available on code.eso-std.org
16:50:14 <AnMaster> it is under "Bugs reported by Elliott Hird"
16:50:15 <ehird> just links to the manual
16:50:22 <ais523> AnMaster: ehird did first
16:50:29 <ehird> it's under "bugs reported by elliott hird"
16:50:29 <ais523> then it broke again and you reported it the second time
16:50:31 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure I reported it, and you didn't say anything about it back then
16:50:33 <ehird> do you think you could make a guess :D
16:50:35 <ais523> but I haven't fixed the new bug yet
16:50:50 <ais523> and unfixed bugs aren't in the changelog
16:52:22 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the second entry about really?
16:52:52 <ais523> AnMaster: it's about varargs vs. stdarg
16:52:58 <ais523> the old method of detecting which one to use was broken
16:53:05 <AnMaster> ais523, What did I report it as?
16:53:09 <ais523> and both you and ehird noticed when trying to compile on architectures that didn't have varargs.h
16:53:24 <ais523> AnMaster: you reported it as a compile failure, and I figured the bug from the error messages
16:53:30 <AnMaster> I don't remember it, but ok. I don't have good memory for such stuff
16:53:51 <AnMaster> ais523, sounds vaguely familiar now...
16:54:04 <ais523> just after the last release, in April or so
16:54:11 <AnMaster> ais523, but wouldn't it just be an autoconf check for the headers?
16:54:37 <ais523> looking for defines in the header files it included
16:54:47 <ais523> you know, the ones that the standards say should be there
16:54:58 <ais523> only I think they either checked the wrong one, or it was slightly nonstandard
16:55:07 <AnMaster> well varargs wouldn't exist, so that would error, but if varargs existed and stdargs didn't, then including that would error.
16:55:19 <ais523> AnMaster: it checked some other header file for the define
16:55:22 <AnMaster> and I don't remember it being defined elsewhere?
16:55:30 <ais523> as it needs to do varargs for printf
16:55:58 <AnMaster> ais523, the va* functions would only be called in the printf function, not needed for the prototype in the header file
16:56:05 <AnMaster> so I can't see how that would work either :P
16:56:19 <ais523> printf needs to know whether to put a ... in the prototype or not
16:56:35 <ais523> so it needs to include the headers that define the constants that specify whether to use varargs or stdarg
16:56:43 <ais523> varargs didn't use the ... syntax
16:57:01 <AnMaster> ais523, um, I never actually seen varargs syntax in the wild.
16:57:17 <AnMaster> /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/include/varargs.h seems to have one entry:
16:57:20 <ais523> the varargs definition for stdio
16:57:21 <AnMaster> #error "GCC no longer implements <varargs.h>."
16:57:21 <AnMaster> #error "Revise your code to use <stdarg.h>."
16:57:45 <ais523> and then all sorts of magic is used at printf's end to get the argument list
16:57:54 <ais523> under stdarg.h, of course, it's int printf(char* format, ...)
16:57:55 <AnMaster> /usr/include/gentoo-multilib/amd64/stdio.h:extern int printf (__const char *__restrict __format, ...);
16:58:08 <ais523> whoops, forgot the restrict and const
16:58:19 <ais523> AnMaster: that architecture doesn't support varargs.h
16:58:25 <ais523> which is why C-INTERCAL's old check failed
16:58:33 <AnMaster> /usr/include/gentoo-multilib/x86/stdio.h:extern int printf (__const char *__restrict __format, ...);
16:58:49 <ais523> that's how you code it under stdarg.h
16:58:57 <ais523> which is right, as varargs.h no longer exists
16:59:02 <ais523> so the header files don't have to support it
16:59:02 <AnMaster> int printf(const char * __restrict, ...);
16:59:11 <ais523> if they supported both varargs and stdarg, they'd need two prototypes
16:59:15 <ais523> one for each mechanism
16:59:24 <ais523> nobody does nowadays though
16:59:28 <AnMaster> ais523, I think varargs was dropped years ago
16:59:34 <ais523> C-INTERCAL is years old though
16:59:42 <ais523> it predates stdarg.h...
16:59:51 <AnMaster> ais523, it seems not even gcc 3.x support varargs?
17:00:09 <ais523> and actually, it's to do with the headers
17:00:12 <AnMaster> well I consider stdargs quite a mess too
17:00:20 <ais523> as long as all arguments are passed on the stack
17:00:40 <AnMaster> well they usually are for variable argument count functions
17:01:02 <ais523> which has the ... in the prototype
17:01:07 <ais523> so the compiler knows to do that
17:01:17 <ais523> under varargs, the prototype was the same for varargs and non-varargs functions
17:01:22 <ais523> and everything was passed on the stack
17:01:55 <ais523> and yes, C-INTERCAL was pre-C89 originally
17:01:58 <AnMaster> 2) C89 added prototypes too didn't it? At least K&R C didn't have it
17:02:07 <AnMaster> "<ais523> under varargs, the prototype was the same for varargs and non-varargs functions"
17:02:08 <ais523> stdargs.h needs prototypes to work
17:02:13 <ais523> AnMaster: there wasn't a prototype
17:02:18 <ais523> which is what I meant by it being the same
17:02:32 <ais523> I should have said the declaration was the same
17:04:23 <AnMaster> (you should know by now I tend to notice such issues with wording ;P)
17:06:36 <AnMaster> ais523, "1. Fixed a typo in the perpet.c version of the help information."
17:06:36 <Asztal> hmm... speaking of C-INTERCAL bugs, is it still possible to write DO ;1 <- ;2 and it will generate (invalid) C?
17:07:18 <AnMaster> ais523, also that reminds me of another bug I reported, that c-intercal generated code with linking errors when trying to run a hello world CLC-INTERCAL program
17:07:29 <Asztal> (I reported that to esr around 2005/2006, but it doesn't look at first glance as though later versions fixed it)
17:08:04 <AnMaster> very well I suggest some log-reading :)
17:08:14 <ehird> He was away for... a few minutes.
17:08:19 <ehird> His last message was at 17:02.
17:08:26 <AnMaster> * [ais523] idle 00:00:54, signon: Tue Oct 14 22:17:17
17:08:37 <ais523> AnMaster: link errors?
17:08:37 <ais523> yes, internet connection failed
17:08:37 <ais523> I have a bouncer now to avoid quitspamming channels I'm in when that happens
17:08:52 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes I remember talking to you about it and you weren't sure how to fix it
17:09:05 <ehird> he had no link errors
17:09:16 <ehird> i just said 'wb ais523' when he re-bouncer-connected
17:09:19 <ais523> AnMaster: do you want to try again?
17:09:24 <AnMaster> ais523, this one iirc: http://intercal.freeshell.org/examples/hello.i
17:09:27 <ais523> the relevant part of the code is really different now from what it used to be
17:09:33 <ehird> link errors in cintercal
17:09:48 <AnMaster> ehird, no as in link errors when compiling/linking generated program
17:10:03 <ehird> i thought you meant on irc
17:11:01 <AnMaster> Backing up ./configure(-darcs-backup0)
17:11:01 <AnMaster> We have conflicts in the following files:
17:11:41 <AnMaster> how do you revert a whole file ais523 in darcs?
17:11:49 <AnMaster> darcs revert configure just locks up
17:12:01 <AnMaster> Shall I revert this change? (1/681) [ynWsfvpxdaqjk], or ? for help: a
17:12:15 <ais523> AnMaster: it would do, probably
17:12:18 <ais523> given the nature of configure
17:12:27 <ais523> the easiest way is to copy it from _darcs/pristine
17:12:56 <AnMaster> ais523, also it will just be re-generated with newer autotools again
17:13:20 <ais523> that's what's meant to happen...
17:13:43 <AnMaster> ais523, not really, unless you change it making darcs pull result in conflicts ;P
17:14:04 <ais523> well, in theory you shouldn't store the configure file in the repo at all, for that sort of reason
17:14:05 <AnMaster> ais523, most other project leaves configure and other generated files out of repo, having users generate it
17:14:13 <AnMaster> but I assume you got some reason
17:14:23 <ais523> so that people can download the repo and it works, as it happens
17:14:30 <ais523> without having the maintainer tools available
17:14:34 <AnMaster> ais523, well configure would be generated for release tarballs
17:14:50 <ais523> but I try to keep the repo and release tarballs in sync
17:14:53 <ais523> as in, containing the same files
17:14:55 <AnMaster> and do you think most users of the darcs version will lack autotools?
17:15:27 <AnMaster> ais523, that would have been quite a problem for a *maintainer*
17:15:43 <ais523> I edited the configure script with search-and-replace
17:15:48 <ais523> and kept in in sync with config.in
17:15:53 <ehird> if you're trying to infuriate AnMaster
17:15:57 <ehird> i can't think of a better way to do it
17:16:02 <AnMaster> well first you have to remove a few PLEASE from that hello.i it seems
17:16:04 <ais523> ehird: I'm not, I'm just telling the truth
17:16:13 <ehird> ais523: ... which is possibly the best way :D
17:16:16 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, CLC-INTERCAL and C-INTERCAL define comment lines differently
17:16:31 <ais523> you need to put DO in front of every line in hello.i for C-INTERCAL to recognise it
17:16:32 <AnMaster> ais523, should I remove " PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE (PRETTY PLEASE)" maybe?
17:16:43 <ais523> well, every ERROR: line
17:16:50 <ais523> there's a difference in handling between the two langs
17:17:05 <AnMaster> I just removed the PLEASE PLEASE...
17:17:08 <AnMaster> /tmp/cczl1GlE.o: In function `ick_og9b59730':
17:17:08 <AnMaster> hello.c:(.text+0x1ce): undefined reference to `ick_or0'
17:17:10 <ais523> in CLC-INTERCAL, DO COME FROM .1 ERROR: This should never be reached is two statements
17:17:17 <ais523> in C-INTERCAL, it's one statement
17:17:19 <AnMaster> I'm 100% sure I reported it before
17:17:24 <AnMaster> and you said it was hard to fix
17:17:28 <ais523> I wonder what happened to that?
17:17:33 <AnMaster> ais523, do you have a bugzilla?
17:17:34 <ais523> it means the typecaster's got lost somewhere
17:17:47 <ehird> i never, ever use bugzillas
17:17:55 <ais523> AnMaster: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?ordering=normal;archive=both;src=intercal;repeatmerged=1
17:18:14 <ehird> bug reporting is a form where you enter your problem as plaintext, and it gives you a URL to track people's comments
17:18:19 <ais523> however, if you use it atm Debian will go mad
17:18:20 <AnMaster> ais523, I think launchpad may have one too?
17:18:24 <ehird> the -developers- can handle stuff like priorities
17:18:28 <ais523> probably, but that's for Ubuntu only
17:18:38 <ais523> and they've been really bad at forwarding bugs to anyone
17:18:45 <ais523> I reported a typo in the man page and Debian never saw it
17:18:51 <ais523> so I've just been reporting directly to Debian recently
17:18:55 <ehird> ais523: worse than gentoo?
17:19:03 <AnMaster> <ais523> probably, but that's for Ubuntu only <-- huh?
17:19:04 <ais523> presently they're at 0%
17:19:22 <ais523> so it's hard for Gentoo to be worse than that
17:19:28 <AnMaster> <ais523> however, if you use it atm Debian will go mad
17:19:31 <ehird> ais523: gentoo's at -1% - they make major modifications and then don't tell people
17:19:39 <ehird> so the original devs get bugs
17:19:41 <ehird> due to gentoo changes
17:19:43 <ais523> AnMaster: because their C-INTERCAL maintainer resigned from that
17:19:51 <ais523> probably for time reasons or whatever, I don't know
17:19:51 <ehird> so a lot of devs just say 'don't report problems on gentoo'
17:19:54 <ais523> and nobody took it up atm
17:20:00 <AnMaster> also what do you mean gentoo at -1%?
17:20:07 <AnMaster> Can we *PLEASE AVOID A FLAMEWAR*
17:20:24 <AnMaster> distro choice is subjective anyway
17:20:32 <AnMaster> some prefer source based, other want binary based
17:20:42 <AnMaster> there is no reason to flame about it
17:20:53 * AnMaster considers a flame war about having a flame war
17:20:55 <ais523> what I mean is, if you report a bug against C-INTERCAL in Debian atm, the core Debian developers have to try to fix it
17:21:02 <ais523> and they're busy with other things
17:21:11 <ais523> last time it happened I saved them by sending an upstream patch
17:22:27 <ais523> (that was the configure failing in dash bug)
17:22:41 <ais523> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=485066
17:24:12 <AnMaster> but why on earth does anyone care about dash?
17:24:32 <ais523> it's smaller than bash
17:24:40 <AnMaster> since the () version would be valid according to POSIX iirc
17:24:43 <ais523> and there is at least one extreme disk-space optimiser in Debian
17:24:56 <ais523> the changelog is wrong, it was a dash-only bug
17:25:00 <AnMaster> even though it would declare an array
17:25:22 <ais523> but dash is the default /bin/sh on Debian
17:25:24 <AnMaster> ais523, didn't you report that as a bug in the changelog?
17:25:33 <ais523> no, couldn't be bothered
17:25:36 <ais523> it's not important enough
17:25:42 <AnMaster> ais523, you should IMO just to mess with them
17:25:42 <ais523> to report a slight mistake in someone else's changelog
17:25:54 <ais523> AnMaster: I want to stay on good terms with them, though...
17:26:29 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it is spreading false and negative information about POSIX shell syntax as wekk as being rather arrogant
17:26:40 <ais523> this would make such a great flame war...
17:26:51 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes it would, but no I wouldn't take part in it
17:27:10 <ais523> we're effectively having a flame war by hypotheticals atm, though
17:27:22 <ais523> "hey, if someone flamed me by saying X, I'd flame them back by saying Y..."
17:27:25 <AnMaster> ais523, but I would still contact them about it, as they are clearly misinformed ;P
17:27:58 <ais523> probably serves me right for writing funky syntax in something that is irrelevant anyway
17:28:05 <ais523> besides, that code isn't even /in/ C-INTERCAL atm
17:28:18 <AnMaster> ais523, well yeah, I wouldn't declare an array there either
17:29:28 <AnMaster> (basically since I coded so much bash I would spot it as an array from, maybe not a mile, but maximum reading distance, depending on font, size of text, light level, and so on)
17:31:07 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I'm pretty sure you said, that http://intercal.freeshell.org/examples/hello.i (with corrected please level) should still not generate that linking error, right?
17:31:58 <AnMaster> ais523, also it is possible to write programs that work on bot C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL?
17:33:26 <ais523> the last I saw was a relatively funny joke from AnMaster about array syntax and the distance at which e could read it
17:33:38 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I'm pretty sure you said, that http://intercal.freeshell.org/examples/hello.i (with corrected please level) should still not generate that linking error, right?
17:33:38 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, also it is possible to write programs that work on bot C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL?
17:33:38 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> for example, that hello world
17:33:59 <ais523> it's pretty easy to write a C-INTERCAL/CLC-INTERCAL polyglot
17:34:10 <ais523> that hello world is full of CLC-INTERCAL-specific features
17:34:20 <AnMaster> ais523, hm what about throwing J-INTERCAL into that mix too?
17:34:27 <ais523> and doesn't work on C-INTERCAL even with syntax corrected and in CLC-INTERCAL emulation mode
17:34:37 <ais523> AnMaster: still possible, but you'd be restricted to INTERCAL-72 features and COME FROM
17:34:47 <ais523> and have to steer away from some thorny parts
17:35:10 <AnMaster> ais523, does that include the needed output for hello world?
17:35:11 <ais523> also, flow control would be impossible on CLC-INTERCAL's default settings, as INTERCAL-72 flow control is deprecated in CLC-INTERCAL
17:35:27 <ais523> AnMaster: actually hello.i doesn't output anything
17:35:38 <ais523> it errors if its input isn't "Hello, world!"
17:36:08 <ais523> and CLC-INTERCAL does text I/O differently from J-INTERCAL and C-INTERCAL
17:36:28 <ais523> it's easy to write a 4-way polyglot between INTERCAL-72, C-INTERCAL, J-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL's C-INTERCAL emulation mode, though
17:36:44 <ais523> which reminds me, I need to send Claudio some patches to improve that emulation mode at some point
17:37:12 <AnMaster> ais523, you got the local changes already?
17:37:23 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:37:25 <ais523> it's kind-of hard to explain
17:37:31 -!- puzzlet has joined.
17:38:49 <AnMaster> ais523, still shouldn't it error out before linking time?
17:38:56 <AnMaster> c-intercal on that hello world I meant
17:39:33 <ais523> no, it should be a runtime error
17:39:44 <ais523> there is a genuine error you've identified there
17:39:50 <ais523> but it'll be a pain to track down
17:39:57 <ais523> I need to figure out wtf the type-caster is doing
17:40:36 <AnMaster> ais523, I seem to recall you said it was something with invalid code in comments needing to be around in case they were ever restored
17:40:48 <ais523> yes, it is to do with that
17:40:54 <ais523> but in particular, it's something that looks like an expression
17:41:01 <ais523> yet doesn't type properly, and the typecaster didn't notice
17:41:07 <ais523> it's the typecaster not noticing that is the bug here
17:41:12 <AnMaster> ais523, got any trace support then?
17:41:20 <ais523> not for the typecaster, probably I should
17:41:21 <AnMaster> dumping parse tree or whatever
17:41:34 <ais523> I can dump parse tree, but annoyingly the dump doesn't list data types
17:41:51 <AnMaster> ais523, does that information exist at the time of the dump?
17:41:53 <ais523> also, I gave up trying to read C-INTERCAL parse tree dumps years ago
17:42:02 <ais523> type inference is done later
17:42:25 <AnMaster> doesn't OIL operate on those trees anyway I thought?
17:42:26 <ais523> because they're unreadable
17:42:34 <ais523> OIL is a readable version of the same thing
17:42:51 <AnMaster> would dumping it to oil be impossible?
17:42:53 <ais523> I have a command to translate an expression parse tree into OIL
17:42:58 <ais523> but that doesn't contain data types either
17:43:04 <ais523> hmm... maybe I should fix it so it does
17:44:19 <AnMaster> ais523, hm a good idea for a name for a tool related to OIL would be CO2 or something such
17:44:52 <ais523> by the way, I'm working on a new INTERCAL-related tool atm
17:45:15 <ais523> it's called ickopter, and it's a generic wrapper script that can convert command-line options from any INTERCAL compiler I know of to any other
17:45:15 <AnMaster> ais523, considering what cars emit when they console certain parts of the raw oil
17:45:25 <AnMaster> after those part have been separated
17:45:39 <AnMaster> ais523, I thought that would be a pretty clear connection?
17:45:47 <ais523> also it can work out the options from the file extension (like CLC-INTERCAL does), or from the modification time (which nothing does atm but something ought to)
17:45:55 <ais523> AnMaster: not all that obvious, really
17:47:12 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, the environment and global warming have been probably been the topic that have grown most in media during the last 1-2 years or so
17:47:32 <ais523> even the oil=petrol connection isn't really obvious to someone British
17:47:42 <ais523> and then, you have to consider what happens when you set it on fire
17:47:45 <oerjan> ais523: somehow i think that utility needs a "hell" in front
17:47:48 <AnMaster> raw oil is used to make petrol
17:47:50 <ais523> AnMaster: oil is a raw material for petrols
17:48:02 <ais523> but that doesn't make them obviously connected
17:48:12 <ais523> it would be like calling a program to operate on a tree structure PENCIL
17:48:24 <AnMaster> ais523, makes perfect sense :)
17:48:46 <ais523> it's about as convoluted as Cockney rhyming slang, which generally has to be explained for people to understand it
17:49:12 <AnMaster> err, of course wooden pencils are made from wood
17:49:24 <ais523> actually, I was referring to the paper on which the pencils wrote
17:49:28 <ais523> which is made from trees
17:49:47 <ehird> that is beautifully convoluted
17:49:53 <AnMaster> I have in front of me two pencils
17:49:55 <ais523> such a pity that both puns are really bad
17:50:08 <AnMaster> the other is a traditional wood-encased one
17:50:16 <AnMaster> that you use a pencil sharpener for
17:50:45 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I don't think the connection is very far fetched at all
17:50:55 <ais523> no, but it's still ridiculous
17:51:05 <AnMaster> also I got a scheme pun for whenever scheme is on the topic, that will even make oerjan's puns seem good
17:51:26 <AnMaster> however I won't tell what it is until I find some place to fit it in the discussion :P
17:51:30 <ais523> oerjan's puns are good
17:51:40 <oerjan> AnMaster: so you're plotting to scheme?
17:51:40 <AnMaster> ais523, well this is kind of good and horrible at the same time
17:52:26 <AnMaster> damn, the pun would have fitted perfectly as a response to oerjan
17:52:28 <ais523> well, I think Guile was named for that pun too
17:54:08 <AnMaster> what does common lisp use for true and false btw? I think I heard mentioned that false was the empty list/NIL?
17:55:00 <ais523> maybe it depends on the implementation, there are too many CL implementations
17:55:14 <AnMaster> for scheme: as far as I understood it, r5rs is case insensitive, but r6rs is case sensitive?
17:55:52 <ais523> if so, I don't get it at all
17:56:14 <AnMaster> ais523, well you will spot the pun when you see it ;P
17:56:30 <ais523> ah, so better than Cockney rhyming slang then
17:56:37 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:57:22 <AnMaster> ais523, hm that slang must be horrible
17:57:35 <ais523> yes, "apples" instead of "chairs"
17:57:42 -!- puzzlet has joined.
17:57:43 <ais523> because "apples and pears" go together
17:57:47 <ais523> and "pears" rhymes with "chairs"
17:58:04 <oerjan> it messes with your loaf
17:58:08 <AnMaster> ais523, pears nad chairs doesn't rhyme in the English I speak at least?
17:58:09 <ais523> instead of saying X, you say something associated with something that rhymes with X
17:58:23 <ais523> AnMaster: they do in British English, especially if you use a Cockney accent
17:58:40 <AnMaster> ais523, I try to speak Oxford English hm...
17:58:54 <ais523> another example is "plates" = "feet"
17:59:09 <AnMaster> err... no I don't get that one
17:59:15 <AnMaster> nor did I get oerjan's joke above
17:59:17 <ais523> "plates of meat" is the clue you need
17:59:27 <ais523> and oerjan's isn't a joke, it's just more Cockney rhyming slang
17:59:31 <ais523> on "loaf of bread" in this case
17:59:35 <AnMaster> ais523, plates of meat would mean a plate with some meat on it?
17:59:38 <ais523> you really have to learn them, they're basically impossible to guess
17:59:45 <ais523> no, not really an idiom
17:59:50 <ais523> thus basically impossible to guess in the first place
18:00:22 <ais523> if they just said the word that rhymed, it wouldn't be too bad as at least you'd have a chance to guess
18:00:33 <ais523> but something associated with a word that rhymes, you have basically no chance
18:00:37 <AnMaster> ais523, so it is a social group marker?
18:00:44 <ais523> quite common in London
18:00:48 <ais523> at least it used to be
18:00:54 <AnMaster> except I don't understand how they can share it in the first place
18:01:05 * oerjan read that it was invented to fool the police spies
18:01:08 <ais523> generally speaking you have to have a parent explain
18:01:32 <AnMaster> ais523, no sane parent should teach that
18:01:36 <ais523> oerjan: at least that makes some kind of sense
18:01:49 <ais523> AnMaster: well, it's a useful skill to figure out wtf Londoners are talking about
18:07:37 <AnMaster> also the scheme joke will only work in a context where it is clear that the stuff discussed is about scheme
18:07:50 <AnMaster> maybe "generic functional languages" would work too
18:08:19 <AnMaster> also I think ehird would agree on using it on r6rs
18:09:10 <AnMaster> actually, it would work in any lisp context, not just scheme
18:09:23 <oerjan> well i sure hope it's a functional pun
18:10:03 * AnMaster runs over oerjan with a car for making such a bad pun
18:10:05 <oerjan> functional has an ordinary meaning
18:10:12 <ais523> AnMaster: "functional" = "working" in everyday English
18:10:40 * AnMaster wonders if anyone will spot it
18:10:53 <Slereah_> And trained in many techniques
18:10:55 <ais523> I did once you pointed it out
18:12:44 <ais523> hmm... Lisp should have all atoms matching ^c[ad]+r$ as builtins
18:12:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I suspect it may actually be possible to make some good jokes on the car theme
18:13:07 <AnMaster> ais523, having all of an infinite set would to too much haskellish ;P
18:13:11 <ais523> that is not one of them though
18:13:12 <oerjan> AnMaster: well you need a car to get ahead
18:13:24 <ais523> oerjan: ok, that one's better
18:13:56 <oerjan> and that was a combined scheme/haskell pun, even
18:14:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, didn't spot the haskell part?
18:14:31 <ais523> oerjan: I wouldn't call it haskell
18:14:35 <ais523> just list terminology in general
18:14:38 <AnMaster> ahead was a reference to the list head
18:14:54 <AnMaster> a terminology used in erlang too for lisp-style lists
18:15:06 <oerjan> in haskell head is the function name
18:15:22 <AnMaster> You will often see [H|T] as a pattern matching the head and tail of a list in erlang
18:15:39 <ais523> Prolog calls them head and tail too
18:15:47 <ais523> head for the first element, tail for the rest of the list
18:15:50 <AnMaster> so not very haskellish in fact
18:16:38 <AnMaster> ais523, also I recently found out some more stuff about the prolog and erlang's relation to each other
18:17:26 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/5tVOcH94.html
18:17:57 <AnMaster> and some bits of syntax, but the actual programming is very different as far as I understood prolog
18:19:00 <AnMaster> ais523, also: http://rafb.net/p/0cHkQ174.html
18:19:17 <ais523> and yes, I expect programming would be quite different
18:19:34 <AnMaster> ais523, in fact that weird stuff like :- in the first paste, is not valid Erlang
18:19:52 <AnMaster> I would guess prolog from the context
18:19:56 <ais523> :- is one of the most common keywords in Prolog
18:20:14 <AnMaster> ais523, looks like an operator to me, but ok
18:20:19 <ais523> probably third after , and .
18:20:30 <ais523> AnMaster: it translates as 'if', but it doesn't really work the same way as if in other languages
18:20:47 <ais523> it means that whatever's to the left of :- is only true some of the time, and what's to the right describes when
18:21:01 <AnMaster> ais523, sounds like the perl variant?
18:21:15 <ais523> yes, it's a bit like Perl if
18:21:24 <AnMaster> ais523, ok so it differs from that too?!
18:21:48 <ais523> it's basically one the fundamental ideas of Prolog which aren't in other languages
18:21:54 <ais523> it's a bit like function definition
18:22:08 <ais523> think about it this way: in C, you can define a function
18:22:08 <AnMaster> ais523, ah it declares a fact is true when foo, doesn't execute code when foo?
18:22:19 <ais523> well, except the condition is the code often
18:22:28 <ais523> in C, if you define a function more than once, that's a link error
18:22:38 <AnMaster> ais523, unless it is a common symbol
18:22:47 <ais523> well, yes, but that's missing the point here
18:22:59 <ais523> in Prolog, :- sort-of defines a function
18:23:05 <ais523> but you can and usually do give more than one definition
18:23:19 <ais523> and the function succeeds if the code to the right of the :- does not fail
18:23:21 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean like different entry points matching different conditions?
18:23:31 <ais523> except you can have different entry points matching the same conditions too
18:23:44 <ais523> and the compiler tries them until one of them works
18:24:15 <AnMaster> for two different entry points for the same function
18:24:23 <ais523> that would basically work in Prolog too, but it wouldn't need :- because the function would have no code
18:24:33 <AnMaster> ais523, well you could have code too
18:24:35 <ais523> foo(2, pair(error,2)).
18:24:43 <ais523> (where pair is a data type you define yourself
18:24:56 <AnMaster> ais523, efunge uses pattern matching in function clause a lot
18:25:11 <ais523> it can use pattern matching for the return value too, though, because that's just an argument
18:25:25 <ais523> in fact most Prolog functions can be called backwards, you give them the return value and they return the arguments you need
18:25:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I think one function have something like 50 or so different entry points in efunge
18:25:42 <ais523> let me show you a famous example of Prolog code, if I can remember it:
18:25:50 <AnMaster> it is the main process_instruction
18:26:09 <ais523> member(X, [_|T]) :- member(X, T).
18:26:34 <AnMaster> ais523, well that wouldn't work in erlang
18:26:44 <AnMaster> since you got all "match any" in all cases
18:26:48 <ais523> it's a very Prolog-style function
18:26:54 <AnMaster> X and T being variable names in erlang
18:27:00 <ais523> they are in Prolog too
18:27:14 <AnMaster> ais523, also see line 72-397 in http://bzr.kuonet.org/efunge/trunk/annotate/113?file_id=finterpreter.erl-20080914111420-p21e8gml3lurds4a-1
18:27:15 <ais523> basically, it tells whether its first arg is a member of its second arg
18:27:23 <ais523> so member(2,[1,2,3,4,5]) succeeds
18:27:27 <ais523> and member(6,[1,2,3,4,5]) fails
18:27:46 <AnMaster> ais523, ah wait that could work
18:27:47 <ais523> however, more interestingly, member(X,[1,2,3,4,5]) returns up to 5 times with X set to each of the numbers 1 to 5
18:27:58 <ais523> and you can even do member(1,List)
18:28:05 <AnMaster> but would beed to be rewritten a bit
18:28:06 <ais523> that will return [1,_] the first time
18:28:10 <AnMaster> like having a body for the first clause
18:28:22 <ais523> if that fails, it'll try [_,1|_]
18:28:41 <AnMaster> <ais523> however, more interestingly, member(X,[1,2,3,4,5]) returns up to 5 times with X set to each of the numbers 1 to 5
18:28:47 <AnMaster> now that wouldn't happen in erlang
18:29:00 <AnMaster> since you seem to need threads there
18:29:15 <ais523> e.g. member(X,[1,2,3,4,5]), X>3
18:29:24 <ais523> will succeed up to twice before failing
18:29:47 <AnMaster> would be it correct to call prolog an out-of-order language?
18:29:58 <ais523> except for practical reasons some out-of-orderings don't work
18:30:15 <ais523> but member(X,[1,2,3,4,5]),member(X,[3,6,9]) works, for instance
18:30:25 <AnMaster> bah... you didn't get that joke
18:30:27 <ais523> (or fails if X was already bound to something that wasn't 3)
18:31:00 <ais523> thinking in Prolog is really strange
18:31:06 <ais523> it's one of the only langs of its type
18:31:08 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway did you look at the link I pasted?
18:31:38 <AnMaster> normally 1-5 entry points or so, probably 1-3
18:31:44 <ais523> the syntax at the end is valid Prolog, but bad style
18:31:49 <AnMaster> tail recursive functions tend to have 2 at least
18:32:00 <ais523> and Prolog programs can have millions of entry points to a function
18:32:06 <ais523> normally when the function is being used as a database
18:32:08 <AnMaster> <ais523> the syntax at the end is valid Prolog, but bad style ??
18:32:15 <ais523> AnMaster: it declares 3 variables
18:32:32 <ais523> no_backtracking_no_insert_delete_duality_magic(_,_,_) :- moo.
18:32:35 <ais523> would be better syntax
18:33:02 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, also see line 72-397 in http://bzr.kuonet.org/efunge/trunk/annotate/113?file_id=finterpreter.erl-20080914111420-p21e8gml3lurds4a-1
18:33:59 <ais523> yes, that sort of thing would be common in Prolog too, for the same reasons
18:34:01 <AnMaster> hm that url is illogical, but since I renamed the file I guess it makes sense
18:34:06 <ais523> if you were writing it imperativish
18:34:26 <AnMaster> which is quite uncommon in erlang
18:34:30 <ais523> using an argument to a predicate to make what's effectively a switch statement
18:34:44 <ais523> ofc, Prolog would do it the other way round, too
18:35:01 <AnMaster> sounds like something for intercal...
18:35:02 <ais523> you could give it the input and output fungespace
18:35:12 <ais523> and it would work out what command it needed to run to go from one to the other
18:35:30 <ais523> like a switch statement, except you don't tell it the control variable and it figures out what it is for you
18:35:38 <AnMaster> ais523, ah no, fungespace isn't stored as single assignment in efunge because the performance got so terrible from that, it is stored using something called an ets table
18:35:56 <AnMaster> basically I didn't want to wait several minutes for mycology to finish
18:35:57 <ais523> well, can you pass it as an argument to a function or predicate or whatever Erlang calls it?
18:36:10 <AnMaster> ais523, the fungespace there is just a handle
18:36:17 <ais523> ah, in that case it would work just fin
18:36:23 <ais523> you'd just give it input and output handles
18:36:36 <AnMaster> ais523, ets tables are implemented in the C parts of erlang
18:36:45 <ais523> which both had a funge-space already in them
18:37:00 <ais523> hmm... in Prolog you'd probably store funge-space with self-modifying code
18:37:03 <AnMaster> and are modify in place, meant for database backend for mneisa (a database in erlang)
18:37:10 <ais523> to do it modify-in-place
18:37:11 <AnMaster> and for other cases when speed gets too slow
18:37:16 <ais523> that's how databases and such are done
18:37:30 <AnMaster> it is basically a non-single assignment hash table
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18:37:42 <ais523> that's what a Prolog database is too
18:37:52 <ais523> it's a predicate which you can modify
18:37:52 <ais523> and which doesn't allow :-
18:37:54 <ais523> which comes to the same thing
18:38:02 <ais523> oh, and only constants in the head
18:38:02 <AnMaster> ais523, well is it implemented in prolog or internally in the language runtime system?
18:38:09 <ais523> depends on the implementation
18:38:17 <ais523> I know of one which implements it in the runtime
18:38:41 <ais523> but normally they aren't special-cased by the interp, they're just a special case of things you could do anyway
18:38:42 <AnMaster> ais523, also it store erlang tuples. such as {key,value}, where value can be any erlang term, and so can key
18:38:49 <oerjan> wait, you cannot modify predicates with clauses containing :- ?
18:39:12 <ais523> if you don't though some implementations are faster
18:39:19 <ais523> if you tell them in advance that you don't plan to
18:39:31 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway the point of them in erlang is that they are high performance for when everything else fails, thus implemented in the C parts of erlang
18:40:25 <AnMaster> ais523, so the FungeSpace thing passed around is just an integer I think
18:40:41 <ais523> yes, well in Prolog if you wanted to do it efficiently
18:40:44 <AnMaster> internal representation of such a handle "may change without notice"
18:40:47 <ais523> you wouldn't pass around anything
18:40:55 <ais523> you'd have a funge_space predicate
18:40:57 <AnMaster> but debugger seems to indicate it is indeed an integer
18:41:05 <ais523> and modify it dynamically to allow for changes in the program
18:41:14 <AnMaster> ais523, hm that would require knowing what number the handle ends up as at compile time?
18:41:24 <AnMaster> which simply wouldn't work in erlang
18:41:27 <ais523> there wouldn't be a handle
18:41:31 <ais523> just part of your code
18:41:34 <ais523> which was self-modifying
18:41:40 <AnMaster> ais523, ah erlang doesn't have that
18:41:59 <AnMaster> also I think that sounds great for writing a befunge interpreter
18:42:04 <AnMaster> do it in a self modifying language!
18:42:12 <ais523> you know how you can write a ROM in C, effectively, using switch(location) {case 0: return 'H'; case 1: return 'e'; case 2: return 'l' ...
18:42:23 <ais523> Prolog databases are like that, but self-modifying
18:42:55 <ais523> but imagine you're on an embedded systen
18:43:01 <ais523> which has lots of ROM but hardly any RAM
18:43:10 <ais523> that would be a sensible way to store a string, if the ROM isn't addressable
18:43:10 <AnMaster> like static const int myrom[] = { 'a', 'b' }
18:43:35 <AnMaster> "if the ROM isn't addressable" indeed
18:43:51 <ais523> in architectures with separate data and code
18:43:59 <AnMaster> better prefix a variable with _
18:44:12 <ais523> erlang _ is almost certainly based on Prolog _
18:44:22 <ais523> which is just an anonymous variable which is different each time you use it
18:44:27 <ais523> to mean "this data will be discarded"
18:44:28 <AnMaster> that tells compiler you know you don't want to use it, so it shouldn't warn, And the compiler will optimise away unused variables anyway.
18:44:39 <AnMaster> but it is still easy to see what it is for
18:44:49 <AnMaster> _FungeSpace tells so much more
18:44:53 <ais523> and they didn't think of having more than one sort of _
18:44:55 <AnMaster> in case you later want to use it
18:45:22 <AnMaster> ais523, does prolog have the _ as prefix for rest of variable too?
18:45:35 <ais523> _ by itself is an anon variable
18:45:42 <ais523> _ followed by anything else is implementation-reserved, IIRC
18:46:02 <ais523> when you debug Prolog code the implementation will print out free variables as _0 and _1 or whatever
18:46:15 <ais523> using the same number to show that two variables have the same value, but the value isn't known yet
18:46:16 <AnMaster> iterate(_Count, _, dead, Retval, _) ->
18:46:38 <AnMaster> but you need to dig to find what those two _ represents
18:46:43 <AnMaster> iterate(_Count, _Instr, dead, Retval, _Space) ->
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18:46:59 <ais523> good Prolog style involves putting all the clauses for one predicate together
18:47:08 <ais523> so you can tell easily enough just by looking at the other cases
18:47:23 <AnMaster> ais523, but maybe you implement a function that conforms to some interface
18:47:27 <AnMaster> and you pass it as a reference
18:47:29 <ais523> but that's only a stop-gap really
18:47:32 <AnMaster> somewhat like C function pointers
18:47:35 <ais523> what if you want to put a constant in the head
18:47:45 <ais523> iterate(1, _, dead, Retval, _)
18:47:51 <ais523> how to know that the 1 refers to a count?
18:48:26 <AnMaster> iterate(1 = Count, _, dead, Retval, _)
18:48:35 <AnMaster> iterate(1 = _Count, _, dead, Retval, _)
18:48:52 <ais523> well, you may as well just use inline comments then
18:48:57 <ais523> I think they use /* */ for that nowadays
18:49:06 <ais523> although Prolog comments were traditionally % to end of line, IIRC
18:49:46 <AnMaster> but %% and %%% is used in different places for human readability reasons
18:50:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I think somewhat like 80% or more of #erlang use emacs to edit their erlang code
18:50:22 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/j0izSW37.html
18:51:03 <ais523> it's so weird seeing code that vaguely resembles Prolog, but that has implicit return values
18:51:28 <ais523> AnMaster: in Prolog things don't have return values
18:51:35 <ais523> you use pass-by-trail in the argument list
18:51:36 <AnMaster> ais523, the return value is the value of the last expression in the block
18:51:41 <AnMaster> everything have a return value
18:51:55 <AnMaster> even stuff that wouldn't have return values in scheme got return values here
18:51:57 <ais523> in Prolog, you'd do something like add(A,B,ReturnValue) :- ReturnValue is A+B.
18:52:02 <ais523> the ReturnValue is explicit here
18:52:06 <ehird> Everything returns a value in Scheme.
18:52:23 <AnMaster> ais523, ok that sounds like how I wrote return string in envbot because $() is so slow in bash :P
18:52:29 <ais523> Prolog's rule is nice and simple, then: nothing obviously returns a value
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18:52:38 <ais523> all return values are done via arguments
18:52:38 <AnMaster> and used printf -v "$1" '%s' "foo"
18:52:39 <ehird> functions return one value
18:52:52 <ais523> ehird: except they never return fail
18:53:03 <ais523> also, if you're talking like that, cut-fail is another possibility
18:53:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> Everything returns a value in Scheme. <-- exactly
18:53:22 <AnMaster> you fail to understand humor obviously...
18:53:24 <ehird> <AnMaster> even stuff that wouldn't have return values in scheme got return values here
18:53:31 <ais523> you spend ages trying to learn Prolog
18:53:37 <ais523> and eventually you 'get it'
18:53:49 <ais523> and then you come across cuts, which completely mess up everything you learnt
18:53:50 <oerjan> doesn't scheme have multiple return values, or was that CL?
18:54:06 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I agree I said that. And that was my point
18:54:12 <ais523> some implementations have dynamic cuts too
18:54:12 <AnMaster> since everything have a return value in scheme
18:54:35 <ais523> which are a bit like longjmp in C, given the dread Prolog programmers generally hold them in
18:54:45 <ais523> except they're useful slightly more often
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18:55:10 <AnMaster> ais523, so it is considered worse than goto in C?
18:55:22 <ais523> cut is a bit like goto in C
18:55:27 <ais523> except that it's used a lot more often
18:55:36 <ais523> it's something that's jarring to Prolog programmers
18:55:40 <ais523> but has no real alternatives
18:55:47 <ais523> hmm... think of it more like GOTO in Basic
18:56:00 <ais523> except a BASIC in which you don't actually need to use gotos
18:56:07 <ais523> because you have functions and ifs and those are enough in theory
18:56:10 <AnMaster> ais523, well I don't know any basic except "10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD" 20 GOTO 10"
18:56:18 <ehird> AnMaster: that's about it
18:56:27 <ais523> yes, that is very typical BASIC
18:56:35 <ais523> normally there's some sort of IF statement
18:56:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it is the classical basic
18:56:46 <ais523> often it's as simple as IF A=2+3 THEN 10, though
18:56:54 <AnMaster> but it doesn't say anything about the language really, apart from that it lacks labels other than line numbers
18:57:24 <ais523> AnMaster: the trick to BASIC is that there is no more than that
18:57:37 <AnMaster> ais523, well more recent basic seem to have it?
18:57:44 <AnMaster> and no I don't consider VB then
18:57:56 <ais523> even QBasic has more control flow stuff than traditional BASIC
18:58:26 <ais523> AnMaster: it was Microsoft's killer app for MS-DOS, I think, originally
18:58:30 <AnMaster> I have seen some VB or maybe VBA, and about the only thing I remember is "Dim foo As" or something like that
18:58:38 <ais523> which explains how old it is to some extent
18:58:49 <ais523> incidentally, it's also one of the platforms I learnt programming on
18:58:52 <ais523> although it's a bad one to choose
18:59:24 <ais523> well, BASIC was invented for beginners in the first place
18:59:28 <ais523> that's what the B in BASIC stands for
18:59:36 <ais523> "Beginner's All-Symbolic Instruction Code"
18:59:40 <AnMaster> yeah that is why basic is basic.
19:00:06 <AnMaster> I just didn't understand why you said "gotcha" as a response
19:00:32 <AnMaster> anyway it is easy to make basic jokes based on basic
19:00:37 <oerjan> 't bad enough for a groan
19:01:06 <AnMaster> and yeah I never claimed to make *high quality* jokes
19:01:19 <oerjan> <AnMaster> pretty basic choice
19:01:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, so what about "<AnMaster> anyway it is easy to make basic jokes based on basic"
19:02:14 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I learned the first steps of programming in an even worse environment
19:02:24 <AnMaster> I bet you can't guess, unless I told you before I forgot it
19:02:25 <oerjan> too much redundancy i feel
19:02:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, I fear you are basically correct there.
19:03:29 <AnMaster> ais523, just an example: it allows an optional "the" in many places to make the code look more like English
19:03:38 <ais523> AnMaster: sounds like INTERCAL
19:03:53 <AnMaster> and use "of" somewhat like -> but more like <- actually, since you state it in the other order
19:04:21 <AnMaster> set myvariable to the first character of the string "hello world"
19:04:25 <AnMaster> ais523, that may be valid apple script
19:04:39 <AnMaster> "first character" may not be a valid selector for a string
19:04:49 <AnMaster> and you may not ned "the string" there
19:04:58 <AnMaster> it was ages ago I last coded in that horrible language
19:05:10 <AnMaster> ais523, oh also it can be recorded
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19:05:21 <AnMaster> since it was intended to script applications in
19:05:36 <AnMaster> then do some task, like selecting a file, and double clicking
19:06:06 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleScript
19:06:19 <AnMaster> tell application "Microsoft Word"
19:06:21 <ais523> AnMaster: ehird's hi ais523 script is written in AppleScript, IIRC
19:06:24 <AnMaster> tell application "Microsoft Word" to quit
19:06:28 -!- ais523 has left (?).
19:06:28 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:07:06 <AnMaster> ais523, well his irc client would provide the needed interface to use it from apple script I guess
19:07:08 <ehird> colloquy's scripts are in applescript
19:07:08 <ais523> well, AppleScript is better than Windows 3.1 Recorder
19:07:13 <ais523> which I tried using for a while and eventually gave up
19:07:24 <ehird> exactly, i hate applescript but its convenient
19:07:32 <ehird> AnMaster: it's only like 4 lines, I can probably paste it here
19:07:33 <ais523> it recorded the location of mouse clicks on the screen, and replayed them
19:07:59 <AnMaster> ais523, I think functions were done with an "on" clause
19:08:10 <ehird> using terms from application "Colloquy"
19:08:10 <ehird> on member joined m in room
19:08:10 <ehird> if m's name starts with "ais523" then
19:08:11 <ehird> tell room to send message "hi " & m's name
19:08:13 <ehird> end using terms from
19:08:20 <AnMaster> "using terms from application"?
19:08:26 <ais523> also, the indentation came through at this end
19:08:29 <AnMaster> that one must be new since OS 7
19:08:31 <ehird> it imports all the stuff in Colloquy's namespace
19:08:32 <ais523> it always does for some reason
19:08:36 <ehird> like "member", "room"...
19:08:41 <ais523> lines are in italic if they start with an odd number of tabs
19:08:45 <AnMaster> I did see one-char wide tabs here ehird
19:09:07 <AnMaster> iirc irssi got an issue with literal tabs
19:09:24 <AnMaster> pixel 7 of row 3 of TIFF image "my bitmap"
19:10:18 <AnMaster> anyway last I coded in apple script must have been something like 7 years ago
19:10:44 <AnMaster> which ends up at around 10-11 years old yeah
19:11:04 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw iirc the apple script stuff allows using other languages than apple script
19:11:05 <ehird> 11 years ago was before os x was released
19:11:21 <ehird> it had applescript?
19:11:37 <AnMaster> ehird, with the script editor that could record
19:11:50 <AnMaster> ehird, or at least 7.5.1 or so did
19:12:34 <AnMaster> ehird, also it allows different languages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleScript#Open_Scripting_Architecture
19:16:25 <AnMaster> ais523, so what do you think of AppleScript syntax?
19:16:39 <ais523> but in lowercase rather than caps
19:17:08 <AnMaster> oh I think it got more possible ways to say something than perl at least in some cases
19:17:30 <ais523> AnMaster: Perl has an infinite number of ways to say things, you can get libraries to use more
19:17:34 <ais523> most of them are in ACME of course
19:18:28 <ais523> AnMaster: part of CPAN
19:18:34 <ais523> for things that aren't particularly serious
19:18:37 <ais523> like Brainfuck interps
19:18:56 <AnMaster> which was first: CPAN, CTAN, CEAN?
19:19:35 <ais523> well, CUAN almost certainly came later
19:19:37 <ais523> and seems to be dead atm
19:19:43 <oerjan> "The Perl archive, CPAN, is based on the CTAN model.
19:20:03 <AnMaster> well Tex is old, so not strange
19:20:58 <oerjan> "CTAN was built in 1992 ...
19:21:41 <AnMaster> anyway that means perl is about as old as I am. hm
19:22:02 <oerjan> "Perl was originally developed by Larry Wall, a linguist working as a systems administrator for NASA, in 1987,
19:23:38 <ais523> hmm... that's the year I was born
19:23:46 <fizzie> I wonder when CRAN was founded... the R language itself seems to have started around 1997, so obviously later than CTAN/CPAN.
19:23:47 <ais523> I wonder which is older, Perl or me?
19:24:38 <fizzie> ais523: Maybe you have the same birthday. How awesome would that be?
19:24:45 <ais523> it would be pretty awesome
19:24:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: R scripts, obviously.
19:24:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm what paradigm is R now again?
19:25:09 <oerjan> "Larry Wall began work on Perl in 1987, while working as a programmer at Unisys,[6] and released version 1.0 to the comp.sources.misc newsgroup on December 18, 1987.
19:25:13 <AnMaster> also I would find having the same birthday as perl embarrassing
19:25:44 <AnMaster> lets just say I'm no big perl fan :P
19:26:44 <AnMaster> also I think apple script may have the shortest audio hello world program of any language
19:26:50 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleScript#Hello_World.21
19:26:56 <AnMaster> that actually *says* hello world
19:27:19 <AnMaster> something like creating a dialog, at least under OS 7
19:27:43 <ais523> ah, pity, gprolog doesn't have dynamic cuts
19:27:49 <ais523> but I think they can be written in terms of throw and catch
19:28:19 <AnMaster> ais523, hm try in erlang got a return value btw
19:28:53 <AnMaster> it is either that of the relevant catch case, or that of the last statement in the try block
19:28:56 <ais523> AnMaster: well it doesn't in Prolog for obvious reasons, it's trivial to get a value out of it using unification though
19:30:00 <AnMaster> try <function> of mymatch -> ...; myothermatch -> ... catch throw:mycustomexception -> ...; error:badarith -> "Most likely division by zero of fp exception" end
19:30:14 <AnMaster> oh and the last clause must _not_ end in ;
19:30:41 <AnMaster> adding a ; to the last clause in a if, case, try, catch or other such block is a syntax error
19:30:53 <AnMaster> that is actually rather irritating
19:31:15 <ais523> well it would be in Prolog too, for the related constructs
19:31:21 <AnMaster> and results in silly syntax like writing ; at the front
19:31:25 <ais523> you never do it by mistake though because you always put a full stop there instead
19:31:50 <AnMaster> yes some people do that seriously
19:32:16 <AnMaster> also in erlang you get nothing there, full stop only at end of the last function clause
19:32:18 <ais523> well, Prolog works well due to having basically no control flow constructs
19:32:29 <ais523> and . for the end of a predicate
19:32:39 <AnMaster> and , between expressions in a single block
19:33:24 <AnMaster> however the use of .,; neatly sidesteps two issues at once
19:33:42 <AnMaster> 1) {} not matching indention, this is the reason python fans say their block style is better
19:34:10 <AnMaster> 2) indention ending up wrong when moving code around in a function, this is the reason C fans use for why python style blocks are bad
19:34:23 <ais523> yes, Prolog sidesteps the issues like that too
19:34:27 <ais523> also Prolog clauses tend to be short
19:34:32 <ais523> so often they don't need indentation at all
19:34:35 <AnMaster> in erlang indention doesn't matter, nor do you have { that could match the wrong }
19:34:55 <AnMaster> ais523, well not indenting is considering bad coding style in erlang
19:35:15 <ais523> in Prolog indenting is common
19:35:23 <ais523> but only if you write something more than one line long
19:35:43 <AnMaster> well I do sometimes put match and code on same line
19:35:50 <AnMaster> but only if all the clauses are short
19:36:01 <AnMaster> since mixing newline + indention and same line is hard to read
19:36:13 <ais523> normally all the clauses are short though
19:36:23 <ais523> also, I'm rather partial to Haskell-style indentation for that sort of thing
19:36:30 <ais523> you don't newline after the :-
19:36:37 <ais523> and the next line is indented to after the :-
19:36:46 <AnMaster> ais523, I think erlang style base sense apart from the ; before an end
19:36:54 <AnMaster> case, if and so on are all terminated by end
19:37:10 <AnMaster> which is then terminated by end
19:38:02 <AnMaster> mostly used for funs (like lambda in scheme)
19:38:29 <AnMaster> (well not totally, since you don't have it for defining "normal" functions)
19:38:51 <AnMaster> (except the compiler actually use that for them too internally, and then converts it back)
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19:39:58 <fizzie> Hey, bit-rot hasn't broken my Prolog Scheme!
19:40:00 <fizzie> |: (+ 1 (call/cc (lambda (k) (+ 2 (k 3)))))
19:40:07 <fizzie> All that Prolog talk made me test it.
19:40:27 <ais523> fizzie: you wrote that?
19:40:31 <GregorR> That's terrifying beyond measure.
19:40:38 <fizzie> ais523: For the "logic programming" project-work.
19:40:44 <AnMaster> since I basically fail as soon as call/cc is involved
19:40:47 <fizzie> ais523: It's written in continuation-passing style Prolog. :p
19:40:58 <ais523> actually, Prolog uses CPS a lot more than other langs
19:41:07 <ais523> it's the only way to maintain loop counters and such sometimes
19:41:43 <AnMaster> ais523, how does a program coded in prolog compare in speed to one written in scheme?
19:41:53 <ais523> Prolog is slow if not optimised
19:42:00 <ais523> there are many optimisers of different qualities around
19:42:02 <fizzie> AnMaster: The call/cc is just giving (+ 1 []) as the continuation (named k), which is then called (k 3) to get (+ 1 3); the (+ 2 ...) part is forgotten.
19:43:11 <AnMaster> call/cc is kind of like: the ( ) representing sacks in each other, call/cc turns them inside out
19:43:38 <ais523> strange analogy, but I sort of see what you're getting at
19:43:56 <ais523> the Underlambda definition of making a continuation might help, but probably doesn't
19:44:00 <AnMaster> really? that is more than what I did 10 seconds after I said it
19:44:33 <ais523> ofc that makes no sense if you don't understand Underlambda, probably
19:44:36 <AnMaster> ais523, mind telling me what language that is?
19:45:52 <AnMaster> in fact I never really tried to learn any of un.*(load|lambda)
19:46:06 <ais523> well, Underlambda's a cross between Underload and Unlambda
19:46:22 <ais523> which is designed to be trivial to interpret, relatively easy to compile, yet expressive
19:46:27 <AnMaster> ais523, well that regex included both of them, so that really doesn't help ;P
19:46:30 <ais523> and also you can compile Unlambda into it
19:47:11 <AnMaster> ais523, also that holds true for any tc language then!
19:47:47 <AnMaster> I assume you meant "trivially compile"
19:48:16 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, easily compile
19:48:21 <ais523> or "compile without cheating"
19:48:38 <ais523> bundling an interpreter works for all TC langs, but is normally considered cheating
19:48:43 <AnMaster> ais523, well since you can compile C into bf, is that cheating?
19:49:14 <AnMaster> ais523, also you could compile bf to C in befunge-93
19:49:21 <AnMaster> since it is mostly string replacement
19:50:00 <ais523> compiling A to B in C doesn't mean that C is tc
19:50:14 <ais523> if A is tc, though, and C is tc or lower, it means that B is tc
19:50:14 <AnMaster> ais523, interpreting in C would
19:51:15 <AnMaster> ais523, could they do it if B wasn't tc?
19:51:20 <ais523> in theory, an oracle machine could figure out what A did and translate it to an infinitely large lookup table, for instance
19:51:42 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't work if B had limited ram
19:51:43 <ais523> ofc this doesn't actually work for any real sub-TC languages B, but some mathematical ones it odes
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19:52:41 <AnMaster> ais523, is lazy evaluation of that look up table allowed? :D
19:53:04 <ais523> if it's by B, then arguably B is doing its calculation instead
19:53:16 <ais523> oh, in that case B could trivally be sub-TC
19:53:20 <ais523> it could be cat, for instance
19:53:31 <AnMaster> and C wouldn't need to be super-tc
19:53:32 <ais523> with C being an interpreter for A
19:54:57 <AnMaster> could a tc language solve the halting problem for sub-tc languages?
19:55:13 <ais523> yes, for some sub-tc langs
19:55:30 <ais523> you can brute-force their halting problem
19:55:39 <ais523> or just with a sufficiently bigger FSM
19:55:46 <AnMaster> what exactly is a "finite state machines"
19:56:19 <ais523> AnMaster: it's basically anything that can only have a finite amount of internal state
19:56:21 <ais523> like any real computer
19:56:27 <ais523> or a programming language without infinite memory
19:56:35 <oerjan> <ais523> if A is tc, though, and C is tc or lower, it means that B is tc
19:56:42 <ais523> a BSM is a special case of an FSM
19:56:48 <oerjan> i don't think you need a restriction on C
19:56:52 <ais523> it's one which would be TC if not for the bound on memory
19:56:59 <ais523> oerjan: you do if B can take infinite input
19:57:07 <AnMaster> ais523, oh? So a FSM is superset of BSM?
19:57:21 <oerjan> since if A is tc you can write a universal program for it
19:57:48 <oerjan> and the simple fact it can be compiled to B means B is tc
19:57:49 <AnMaster> which you couldn't compile into B?
19:58:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, not if it was compiled by an oracle machine C, which generated an infinite look up table for all outcomes of the program, as I ais523 said?
19:58:45 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, FSM is a superset of BSM
19:58:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: doesn't matter, it still has to result in _one_ B program
19:58:55 <ais523> it includes things that wouldn't be TC even with infinite memory
19:59:01 <AnMaster> ais523, is BSM the most powerful variant of FSM or?
19:59:14 <ais523> well, for certain definitions of "powerful"
19:59:34 <ais523> AnMaster: some not-nearly-TC FSMs are better at certain things
19:59:38 <ais523> like factorising primes
19:59:47 <oerjan> but as the whole brouhaha with ais523 himself and the wolfram TM shows, TC is dubious to define when input can be infinite
19:59:59 <AnMaster> ais523, quantum computers are FSM but not BSM or?
20:00:41 <ais523> AnMaster: quantum computers are infinite state machines
20:00:57 <ais523> oerjan: I agree with you for finite input
20:01:07 <ais523> AnMaster: you can't simulate them on real computers exactly, you have to approximate
20:01:12 <ais523> but the infinite state can't be extracted
20:01:19 <ais523> because they're probabilistic anyway
20:01:25 <ais523> the probabilities are arbitrary-precision real numbers
20:01:29 <pikhq> Of course, that's because our computers are kinda finate-state. ;p
20:01:31 <AnMaster> ais523, so that means they are sub-tc or super-tc?
20:01:31 <ais523> but you can't find out what the probability is
20:01:38 <ais523> AnMaster: sub-TC, in practice
20:01:45 <ais523> well, they just return results at random
20:02:02 <ais523> a good quantum computer program tries to increase the chance of the result being right as much as possible
20:02:15 <ais523> but any interesting quantum program can return any possible answer, in theory
20:02:35 <ais523> you just try to maximise the probability of getting the right answer, then you check the answer on a conventional computer and run again if you're wrong
20:02:36 <AnMaster> ais523, so even running it multiple times isn't fool-proof?
20:02:39 <ais523> Slereah_: quantum computing
20:02:49 <ais523> but normally you can check the answer quite quickly
20:03:00 <ais523> finding an element in a database, for instance, or factorising prime products
20:03:15 <Slereah_> ais523 : Well, there is quantum in it
20:03:28 <AnMaster> ais523, worst case is O(inf) then?
20:03:32 <Slereah_> And we're doing pretty much only that
20:03:40 <AnMaster> ais523, that is as bad as bogo-sort!
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20:03:54 <ais523> AnMaster: the typical case is a lot better though
20:04:00 <Slereah_> Quantum physics, solid state physics using quantum physics, atomic physics using quantum physics, group theory for quantum physics
20:04:09 <Slereah_> It's like a festival of quantum
20:04:10 <ais523> factorising prime products in O(log n), for instance
20:04:30 <ais523> normally it only takes 5 tries or so
20:04:44 <ais523> also, when that algorithm returns the wrong answer, it's most likely either close to the correct answer, or 0
20:05:01 <AnMaster> ais523, but you can't be sure it is a prime? You can be sure if it returns the factors for a composite I guess
20:05:12 <AnMaster> but never sure if it is actually prime
20:05:46 <ais523> AnMaster: normally you know the number you're looking for is the product of two primes in the first place
20:05:48 <AnMaster> ais523, also doesn't the integer one return 0 or 1?
20:05:49 <ais523> for code-breaking, and such
20:06:06 <ais523> I'm talking about factorising prime products
20:06:11 <ais523> rather than checking for primality
20:06:23 <AnMaster> Shoors algorithm is the latter isn't it?
20:06:30 <AnMaster> or however the name was spelled
20:07:40 <AnMaster> afk, unknown if it lasts till(sp?) tomorrow or if I get back later
20:09:12 <oerjan> ais523: i'm not sure that a quantum computer really requires infinite memory to simulate exactly. you should be able to rewrite things with explicit matrices, which blow up exponentially but not infinitely.
20:09:27 <ais523> oerjan: ah, interesting
20:09:34 <GregorR> AnMaster: [OT] Till and 'til are both correct short-forms of "until"
20:09:38 <ais523> well, in theory, you could give it arbitrary reals as the input to a probability rotation
20:09:51 <ais523> but there'd be no way to input those using any known input method
20:10:21 <oerjan> i vaguely recall something about quantum computing not being able to do more than PSPACE problems
20:11:01 <ais523> well, quantum computing doesn't do anything a regular computer couldn't do
20:11:11 <ais523> it's just O(n/log(n)) faster
20:11:16 <ais523> which is normally a very worthwhile trade
20:12:51 <Slereah_> But quantum computers cannot love.
20:14:04 <Deewiant> GregorR: [OT] "till" is not a shortened form of "until"
20:14:21 <oklocod> head-of-horn-clause ":-" body-of-horn-clause
20:14:31 <oerjan> "BQP is contained in the complexity class #P (or more precisely in the associated class of decision problems P#P)[19], which is a subclass of PSPACE.
20:14:47 <ais523> and "procedure" is one way to put it, they're pretty different from imperative procedures
20:15:01 <ais523> "Horn clause" is the correct name, unfortunately not very useful for people who don't know what that means
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20:31:38 <oklocod> i seriously read that as "horny procedure"
20:31:50 <oklocod> /me continues reading logs
20:31:57 <oerjan> i seriously avoided mentioning that
20:38:38 <oerjan> actually the #P should be a superscript
20:39:32 <oklocod> is that so? so, err, does it literally mean polynomial + polynomial exponent?
20:39:43 <oklocod> i haven't heard bout no P#P's
20:40:04 <oerjan> so if it's the usual meaning, P^#P means "can be solved in polynomial time with a #P oracle"
20:40:25 <oklocod> and care to tell me what a #P oracle is? :P
20:41:05 <oerjan> it's like having a Turing machine, except it has a special instruction that allows it to solve any #P problem instantly
20:41:58 <oerjan> some other class of problems, probably counting problems by the #
20:42:01 <oklocod> i just wasn't familiar with the term except for meaning a superturing thingie
20:42:37 <oerjan> yeah the superturing thing is when you take the oracle problem to be the halting problem or such
20:43:34 <oerjan> "More formally, #P is the class of function problems of the form "compute f(x)," where f is the number of accepting paths of an NP machine."
20:44:29 <oerjan> so while NP checks whether a Turing machine _can_ succeed, #P counts how many alternative ways it can do so
20:44:57 <oklocod> yes, i just haven't generalized that, because when i learned the concept of oracle, it was enough complex for me as it was, and i didn't exactly know much about computational complexity in general
20:45:42 <oklocod> except the lag was in the fact i had scrolled a few lines up and was responding to your old message
20:46:35 <oklocod> i see how that's a subset of PSPACE
20:48:22 <oerjan> "One consequence of Toda's theorem is that a polynomial-time machine with a #P oracle (P#P) can solve all problems in PH, the entire polynomial hierarchy."
20:48:30 <oklocod> try the new pro-log, with horny clauses!
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22:29:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I feel that it would be far better for people to see that it's wrong to do so, and keep the government out of it..
22:30:09 <ais523> what's wrong with "haskell isn't stack based"?
22:32:01 <oerjan> well if the government wants haskell to be stack based, clearly it must be wrong.
22:34:09 <ais523> the government, presumably
22:34:29 * ais523 ponders what stack-based Haskell would be like
22:34:38 <ais523> actually, I suspect Haskell compiles into Underload
22:34:43 <ais523> (barring I/O and other things like that)
22:34:57 <Slereah_> Wouldn't anything compile into anything?
22:35:25 <Slereah_> Well, since it's sort of functional, I guess
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23:25:17 <GregorR-L> I'm looking for trivialities of human behavior that can be formalized to a stupid degree.
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23:25:28 <GregorR-L> I formalized the order of urinals (using an entire whiteboard), but now I'm looking for more :P
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23:28:24 <ais523> GregorR-L: formalise quit/join spam in IRC channels
23:33:52 <GregorR-L> Or rather, too determined by the whims of stupid humans :P
23:34:03 <ais523> that would actually be useful
23:34:21 <GregorR-L> That would take study, but I'll bet it's more formulaic than one might initially think.
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23:58:44 <GregorR-L> poiuy_qwert: You implemented 2L! Zomg.
00:11:45 <GregorR-L> (The 21st century remake of guys and dolls)
00:16:26 <ehird> gays... like the COMMUNISTS
00:22:21 <GregorR-L> Gays... like that COMMUNIST ALAN TURING
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00:44:32 <GregorR-L> poiuy_qwert: I didn't realize it had been reimplemented :P
00:44:42 <GregorR-L> poiuy_qwert: You realize I wrote my own Hello, world when I wrote the language, right?
00:46:00 <ehird> http://davelargo.blogspot.com/2008/10/evolution-canvas-love.html You have to laugh at this - "Here is how our product looks, here is how the Apple version looks, let's make our product look identical to the Apple version"
00:47:29 <GregorR-L> - Glass like event UI makes it appear modern and infuriatingly difficult to work with
00:49:15 <ehird> Yeah that shit is fugl
00:49:20 <ehird> Anyway I am out. seeya
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01:00:13 <poiuy_qwert> I did not notice when I wrote my version, but I did find it after
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01:45:01 <ENKI-][> bsmntbombdood: python 3000? is that like python with slightly less bloat?
01:57:49 <Sgeo> Almost debate time!
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03:07:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | interesting. is the transformation function turing-complex?.
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04:55:19 <GregorR> Oh come on, people in this channel should love needless formalization at least a third as much as I do.
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05:11:07 <ab5tract> define needless. define formalization.
05:26:29 <GregorR> http://codu.org/oou.pdf // needless formalization.
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06:02:48 <oklocod> GregorR: is that an order of urinals computational model?
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06:03:02 <GregorR> Well, it's not a computation model, but yes, it is the order of urinals :P
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06:03:22 <oklocod> i have no idea what the content means
06:03:58 <oklocod> the first line is the type?
06:07:29 <oklocod> ya, but i have no idea what the body does, i'm hoping it doesn't run oou, because it's kinda short.
06:09:15 <oklocod> d()... distances are quite crucial in oou, when approaching a urinal, you need to take steps that takes you closer to it, and when choosing a urinal, you have to take the one that's the farthest from yours peer peers
06:20:24 <GregorR> The first two cases are trivial cases (all empty, all in use)
06:20:36 <GregorR> The third case chooses the urinal which is most distant from any in use urinals.
06:22:21 <GregorR> It's the definition of a transform, not a function in the functional-language sense.
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06:23:23 <GregorR> That is, it's a state transition.
06:24:04 <GregorR> U is the set of all urinals, U_E are those that are not in use, U_I are those that are in use.
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06:25:41 <GregorR> Strictly I don't, but it allows some convenient definitions regarding their unions and disjunctions *shrugs*.
06:28:54 <GregorR> Believe it or not, getting the most efficient writeup was not one of my goals :P
06:29:24 <GregorR> (Otherwise the first case would be removed entirely)
06:29:50 <GregorR> (With some minor adjustments to the last part, that is)
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06:31:00 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.codu.org/pics/albums/userpics/normal_Trombute_Complete_Taped.jpg
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08:05:25 -!- Ps2jak2 has set topic: Um.
08:05:40 <fungot> immibis: eval ( expt fnord 2)
08:05:47 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | my friend just glanced at it and got it :|.
08:06:07 * Ps2jak2 shoots optbot with rocketlauncher
08:06:07 <optbot> Ps2jak2: but what we need to do is anticipate that anywhere we could use the resulting monad we could also get 'Ok'
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08:06:46 <Ps2jak2> i know lets kick the bot!!!
08:07:17 <optbot> immibis: the full title is "Anything (we can fix)"
08:07:18 <optbot> fungot: plus I've been composing for a long time
08:07:18 <fungot> optbot: i almost understood that _; my self fnord my out " " fnord
08:07:19 <optbot> fungot: as the case may be.
08:07:19 <fungot> optbot: also, i'm norwegian. not sure if i like
08:07:19 <optbot> fungot: you might want to change your nickserv password.
08:07:20 <fungot> optbot: c99 seems to bascially fnord)"
08:07:20 <optbot> fungot: Yeah... Perl doesn't design for readability... so it's sort of expect anyways. ^_^
08:07:20 <fungot> optbot: i have to think
08:08:18 <oerjan> <fungot> optbot: c99 seems to bascially fnord)"
08:08:18 <optbot> oerjan: in oklotalk, i had that problem
08:08:18 <fungot> oerjan: average lifespan divided by world population... the file i'm writing which is still useless.
08:08:23 <oerjan> the truth is revealed!
08:08:51 <oerjan> great news for the insemination industry
08:15:07 <fizzie> fungot: Hey, you're not Norwegian!
08:15:07 <fungot> fizzie: you don't know emacs
08:15:27 <oerjan> i think those cancel out
08:15:36 <fizzie> What a strange counter-argument.
08:15:58 <fungot> immibis: for now, but i'm not connecting the dots to how a program handles fnord errors.
08:15:58 <fizzie> "You don't know emacs, therefore you can't say anything about my nationality."
08:16:34 <fizzie> "Fnord is the typographic representation of disinformation or irrelevant information intending to misdirect, with the implication of a conspiracy."
08:16:44 <fizzie> I just use it as a placeholder for rare words.
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08:24:39 <fungot> ab5tract: actually i like " facilitate", because it expects pure functions. the guy who can
08:24:43 <immibis> i thought it actually meant something, maybe function ordinal whatever that is
08:25:05 <ab5tract> immibis: a fnord is like a fjord of lies
08:25:33 <ab5tract> fizzie: is fungot you're doing?
08:25:34 <fungot> ab5tract: we all get bored and quit" is done the same with h in that same place would have had that first, and then
08:26:13 <fizzie> ab5tract: Yes. In case anyone didn't mention it yet, it's written in Befunge (Funge-98, actually), therefore the name.
08:27:30 <ab5tract> i've played with befunge-93 but i haven't read through the 98 spec yet
08:27:39 <fizzie> Well, fungot's not overly complicated, some 300 lines: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
08:27:40 <fungot> fizzie: then you want a regular tuning
08:28:05 <fizzie> fungot: You mean I should tune you, or I should self be somehow "tuned"?
08:28:05 <fungot> fizzie: it's quite easy
08:28:22 <fizzie> That's somewhat disturbing. The bot is going to "tune" me.
08:28:56 <immibis> fungot: are you omniscient?
08:28:57 <fungot> immibis: but it was fixed in subsequent versions of gcc, i have
08:29:07 <immibis> omg you made fungot omniscient!?
08:29:08 <fungot> immibis: when all booleans are true, but we don't have hierarchical namespace and it's hard to read
08:29:50 <oerjan> fungot knows all. but he is a little vague on which parts are true and which are false.
08:29:50 <fungot> oerjan: now that's cool. it's not specifically fast, and even though we aren't/ haven't been married in over six years, but want to program recursively, can
08:30:12 <immibis> you haven't been married in over six years....
08:30:42 <fizzie> I'm not sure the Finnish jurisdiction will even let snippets of code to marry.
08:30:45 <immibis> so you and fungot were married six years ago?
08:30:46 <fungot> immibis: i don't follow feeds that closely...
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08:32:22 <fizzie> I don't think fungot even existed six years ago. There's something fishy going on.
08:32:22 <fungot> fizzie: sleep calls... night all. i just now realized that sentence made no sense
08:32:30 <ab5tract> only in befunge could an oracle be written in ~300 lines
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08:33:28 <ab5tract> fizzie: cool of you to comment that code
08:33:48 <ab5tract> fungot: nly systms wrth knwng gt knwn
08:33:49 <fungot> ab5tract: next challenge is to golf that js down to 510 characters, plus the 1000 books released early which have confirmed the leak to be genuine.
08:33:52 <fizzie> There's actually 350 lines of C++ and 175 lines of Perl (curiously coincidental numbers) involved in creating the language model used for the oracular predictions.
08:34:30 <fungot> ab5tract: 14 nonterminals left) instead of
08:34:58 <fizzie> I'd like to comment the code better, but I lack a suitable editor that can comment arbitrarily shaped regions of text and handle moving of comments when editing.
08:35:02 <ab5tract> fizzie: i see. i didnt realize befunge interfaced with other languages so handily
08:35:10 <mellifluidicpuls> fungot: are you related to any of the pacific northwest species of fungi perfecti?
08:35:10 <fungot> mellifluidicpuls: you're that guy
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08:35:53 <ab5tract> fizzie: yes befunge needs its own ide
08:35:56 <fizzie> The other languages are just used to create a data file; Funge-98 FILE fingerprint is used to read 'em.
08:36:12 <oerjan> fizzie: i think that somehow ties into your not knowing emacs
08:37:25 <fungot> ab5tract: can you give me an assortion of mind virii to choose from.
08:37:46 <ab5tract> fungot: only in special instances
08:37:46 <oerjan> fungot: i suggest the Borg
08:37:47 <fungot> ab5tract: the gui doesn't seem useful for what?
08:37:47 <fungot> oerjan: the one one one-shot continuations, yome.
08:38:09 <fungot> mellifluidicpuls: rather, even takes n,
08:38:35 <fungot> mellifluidicpuls: error in make-vector: exact integer required for operation.
08:39:13 <ab5tract> now i understand why i was so confused when i was reading through the logs when i first found the channel
08:39:16 <fizzie> fungot: Stop pretending you're written in Scheme.
08:39:17 <fungot> fizzie: ( mu ( lambda ( x)
08:39:19 <fungot> immibis: that's cool. it's not a bad plan.) when it suffices that fnord)
08:39:20 <oerjan> mellifluidicpuls: i think fungot is schemeing against you
08:39:21 <fungot> oerjan: oh. misunderstood. it's late) re: srfis. the scheme language is to an assembly language
08:39:41 <immibis> does it look for keywords or something
08:40:05 <fizzie> It doesn't look at the input text at all. At least it shouldn't. (Just checks if the string "fungot" is a substring of it.)
08:40:42 <fungot> ab5tract: ( for those not reading comp.lang.scheme: http://www.schemers.org/ documents/ standards/ r5rs/ html/ fnord
08:40:43 <fizzie> Well, in any case, the code I wrote doesn't look at the input. Who knows what that bot actually does.
08:40:57 <immibis> i just noticed that you mentioned scheme and it said ( mu ( lambda ( x)
08:41:02 <ab5tract> fungot: are you an.... anarchist???
08:41:02 <fungot> ab5tract: maybe tomorrow? the day after tomorrow
08:41:14 <immibis> it seems to give surprisingly relevant answers
08:41:20 <ab5tract> fungot good to hear. fight the man!
08:41:20 <fungot> ab5tract: or... should it skip over next instruction or next char always?
08:41:32 <ab5tract> fungot: fuck no and dont you forget it
08:41:33 <fungot> ab5tract: each successive number means that you're unlikely to use some sort of
08:41:48 <immibis> fungot: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
08:41:48 <fungot> immibis: is this channel for night and then go to fnord
08:41:57 <fungot> immibis: wouldn't work for heterogeneous arrays, twb`. nice
08:42:13 <immibis> fungot: maybe you're right, i shouldn't be clarifying heterogeneous arrays.
08:42:14 <fungot> immibis: what's that game evoli mentioned the other day
08:42:14 <fungot> mellifluidicpuls: are you reading through sicp?
08:42:37 <oerjan> fungot seems scheme obsessed
08:42:37 <fungot> oerjan: x86 only at the signatures of a project's modules good documentation for the whole thing
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08:42:55 <immibis> sorry i was demonstrating it to ps2jak2
08:43:12 <fizzie> oerjan: Might be because I fed my #scheme logs (in addition to #esoteric) to the language model builder to get a bit more data.
08:43:59 <fizzie> That's 72 megs of #scheme, 40 megs of #esoteric.
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08:44:43 <fizzie> I did at some point feed it some selected books from Project Gutenberg to make it talk like Charles Darwin.
08:44:48 <fizzie> But it was just freaky.
08:44:58 <oerjan> fizzie: it started evolving?
08:45:07 <ab5tract> can we have a book of revelations mode?
08:45:20 <fizzie> oerjan: There was a lot of talk about various species of animals, at the very least.
08:45:46 <fungot> mellifluidicpuls: i didn't need to
08:46:03 <ab5tract> bastard fungot, you don't know whats good for oyu
08:46:03 <fungot> ab5tract: you mean structs?
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08:47:07 <fungot> CoffeeBot: but a far more likely outcome." http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ exe
08:47:11 <ab5tract> okay im out now. i could do this all not
08:47:13 <fizzie> Let's see.. I used the books at http://zem.fi/~fis/darwinbooks.txt for the Charles Darwin mode.
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08:47:40 <fungot> ab5tract: ( the lexical environment is the key to these things
08:48:26 <ab5tract> immibis: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
08:48:27 <fungot> ab5tract: imagine a beowulf array of sarahbots
08:49:06 <oerjan> Maybe fungot could include the source link in its irc name?
08:49:06 <fungot> oerjan: int main(int argc, char **argv
08:49:10 <fizzie> There was a sarahbot on #scheme, I think.
08:49:40 <oerjan> imagine a beowulf array of fungots
08:49:40 <fungot> oerjan: seen ig? it's a beloved movie. cyberpunk keanu techno-spiritual black dudes.
08:50:14 <ab5tract> goddamn you fungot you are funging my brainstemspace
08:50:14 <fungot> ab5tract: it's what it is?
08:50:25 <ab5tract> say it with conviction damn you
08:50:26 <fungot> mellifluidicpuls: let me do that actually works correctly btw, do you mind if
08:50:36 <immibis> fungot: that doesn't make sense
08:50:37 <fungot> immibis: maybe s48 does work on this
08:50:43 <oerjan> it is slowly reprogramming us
08:50:56 <immibis> how does the phrase generator program work
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08:52:01 <fizzie> Do you want the short or the long description?
08:52:59 <fizzie> It collects all n-grams (up to n=4, I think) and counts the frequencies... then it uses the previously generated context of n-1 and the frequencies of the n-grams with matching first n-1 words to determine the next word.
08:53:11 <fizzie> Also, I think I found the Darwin model I built earlier.
08:53:19 <fizzie> fungot: Can you speak like Darwin for us?
08:53:19 <fungot> fizzie: letter 765. to j.d. hooker. down 1857?. 139.), whilst still kept in/ greenhouse, produced capsules in/ ratio :) fnord to/ taste or/ odour :) cervus fnord on/ toucans; protective colouring :) shells.
08:53:41 <fizzie> Oh, right, Darwin had this problem about using :) all the time.
08:54:40 <fizzie> I think my script just picks up some ascii-formatting from the Gutenbergized version of the books, but not sure what.
08:55:08 <fungot> mellifluidicpuls:/ storage :) a supply :) organised matter, not containing any organic matter; and here/ evidence is plain in/ valle del yeso. it was different with/ quadrifids; for/ lining :) protoplasm was a little cliff similarly composed, but including many nodular and stalactiform concretions: i found " 640? 1.
08:55:20 <immibis> lol "not containing any organic matter"
08:55:25 <immibis> quite accurate don't you think
08:55:39 <fizzie> Yes, "organised matter, not containing any organic matter" is a good description.
08:55:45 <immibis> fungot: what kingdom are you in?
08:55:45 <fungot> immibis: seedlings were raised from/ same plant, but can seldom gain access into its cavity, to/ same side; and these turn by well-adapted movements to any object with its extremity considerably upturned, but to a different climate.
08:55:54 <immibis> fungot: how does evolution work?
08:55:54 <fungot> immibis: embryology, 218
08:55:59 <immibis> fungot: how does evolution work?
08:55:59 <fungot> immibis: new guinea " e. columbi, fnord.)
08:56:03 <fungot> immibis: if any domestic race had descended from/ jagged summit :)/ plant, any more than why unnatural conditions :) life.
08:56:18 <fizzie> "unnatural conditions :)"
08:56:38 <fizzie> It went to the "ignoring this person" mode it uses to avoid optbot loops.
08:56:38 <optbot> fizzie: if ((ptr + sizeof(type)) < comp->mem->size) { \
08:57:03 <immibis> you made it do that specifically to avoid optbot loops?
08:57:04 <optbot> immibis: And now, the conspiracy theory.
08:57:19 <immibis> you made fungot do that specifically to avoid optbot loops?
08:57:20 <optbot> immibis: http://pastebin.ca/963248
08:57:39 <fizzie> Yes. It will again start responding to you when someone else speaks to it.
08:57:43 <fungot> fizzie: printed by william clowes and sons, stamford street, and afterwards to visit/ flower, as i saw when i hastened/ fall :) fnord and this is/ chief object; and strongly contracted facial muscles destroy fnord/ story :)/ composition is generally told with wonderful force. your discussion on/ australian musk-duck; on/ relative proportions :)/ limbs :) rabbits, muscles wither, arteries grow up. on great droughts. on hydrophob
08:58:02 <immibis> btw did you know http://qdb.us/ has an orange colour scheme while http://www.qdb.us/ is blue?
08:58:06 <fizzie> In any case, IRC logs seem to generate better IRC chatter than Darwin's books.
08:58:38 <immibis> i still say you should add #defocus logs
08:58:46 <optbot> mellifluidicpuls: >>> numbda "/"*5
08:58:46 <fungot> mellifluidicpuls: macacus nemestrinus. lastly, dr. f. smith informs me that this is/ case with/ females :) certain flies " culicidae and fnord) or two species only, appears to range continuously from/ cordillera to/ highlands :) southern brazil " in/ :( expression :)/ emotions,' page 220, in which/ water has been seen to fructify in france.
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08:59:28 <fizzie> fungot: Do you work with symlinks correctly?
08:59:28 <fungot> fizzie: which is interesting but not turing-complete, is unknown, you will have to
08:59:36 <fizzie> Seems to. Back to irclogs.
08:59:59 <fizzie> What's #defocus all about?
09:00:01 <immibis> fungot: you are an idiot in this mode?
09:00:15 <immibis> fungot: why are you an idiot in this mode?
09:00:15 <fungot> immibis: that's just bad style html. i don't
09:00:42 <immibis> i leave you with two words.
09:00:45 <optbot> immibis: with different intervals corresponding to different instructions
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09:00:46 <optbot> fungot: I just spent a longish time completely filling a Sodaplay thingy with dots and springs.
09:00:47 <fungot> optbot: trust me, the entertainment in doylestown is the people who run joy now expect to run joy programs that access it on any other platform i am aware
09:00:47 <optbot> fungot: He doesn't understand "no flooding" too well.
09:00:47 <fungot> optbot: what do you mean? you asked me to call for something more useful
09:00:47 <optbot> fungot: online church fete store? ;d
09:00:48 <fungot> optbot: oh yes, all of those before.
09:00:48 <fungot> optbot: rather than having arbitrary x-, y- and z-axis, you have
09:01:32 <fizzie> I feel a bit bad for the log-readers who now have to wade through all that nonsense.
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09:07:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | the only things are += -= ^=, if_then_else_fi_, from_do_loop_until, call_, uncall_ and skip, and the only data is numbers.
09:07:59 <oerjan> looks like a reversible one
09:08:27 <oerjan> that was the first hint
09:08:33 <oerjan> but also the assignments
09:09:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw it should be possible for fungot to get in a loop with two other bots, say optbot and some other similar bot
09:09:55 <fungot> AnMaster: try xmodmap -e " alt_l meta_l alt_l". it doesn't
09:09:55 <optbot> AnMaster: mostly due to the expression syntax
09:10:03 <AnMaster> I hope we don't get that many bots though
09:11:31 <fizzie> It is. And it's already possible (and trivial) to make it loop with thutubot alone since the "ignore after four times" still applies only to babbling, not ^commands.
09:11:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, you could ignore the other bots
09:12:29 <fizzie> I should write a generic "ignore list" support, in fact. Probably too busy to do it very soon, though.
09:13:39 <fizzie> We already saw a fungot-optbot-thutubot triple-loop, in fact. (Simply including the 'optbot' string in the fungot-thutubot loop made optbot generate so much chatter that it would've prevented the single-person-ignore from kicking in.)
09:13:39 <fungot> fizzie: so, you've already asked, but then we wouldn't have the slightest clue what you are
09:14:27 <AnMaster> but you want to keep the current "more than 4" limit to provide some protection against new bots
09:14:39 <AnMaster> hopefully we won't get too many more
09:14:59 <fizzie> Everyone wants in on this lucrative bot business. :p
09:15:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, I was actually thinking about some multi-eso bot, somewhat like the old egobot
09:16:01 <AnMaster> it wouldn't itself be coded in an esolang
09:19:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, If you saw a fingerprint named ATHR what would you think it was?
09:20:13 <fizzie> Somethinf related to asynchronous threading.
09:20:57 <AnMaster> My plan is that it should work like t in normal befunge-98 mostly, except not synchronised
09:21:12 <AnMaster> however to make it still possible to code stuff in it there are two things:
09:21:51 <AnMaster> a read or write from funge space is atomic, even though the value may change after the read and the g, p, ' or s returns
09:22:14 <AnMaster> some synchronization primitives
09:22:24 <AnMaster> to make it possible to still write programs using it
09:22:42 <AnMaster> however any comments on this area would be very useful!
09:23:01 <AnMaster> what types of sync primitives should exist for example?
09:23:30 <AnMaster> something like pause/resume threads would be one of them I think.
09:25:30 <AnMaster> behaviour would be that blocking IO only blocks the relevant ATHR thread, and other ones may continue
09:25:52 <AnMaster> (that would affect SOCK for example)
09:28:52 <oerjan> i hear transactional memory is cool
09:29:28 <AnMaster> as for the atomic funge space I already know how to do that in the interpreter I plan to implement it in
09:30:02 <AnMaster> ets can be shared (they are private by default), and any writes/reads on single entries are atomic.
09:30:15 <AnMaster> and since I use a private ets table for funge-space the change would be trivial
09:30:41 <AnMaster> but "only if value is the same"
09:30:56 <AnMaster> you mean like compare-and-exchange
09:32:06 <oerjan> Note: "i hear" carries a connotation that practical threading is not one of my fields of expertise
09:32:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, did you say befunge and practical?
09:32:57 <oerjan> i'm not quite sure whether or not i have _ever_ written a concurrent program, in fact :D
09:33:38 <oerjan> i did not say befunge, so no
09:44:54 <fizzie> Well, I think I would like that. Simple atomic funge-space access sounds like it's enough -- no-one's writing Funge code because it's easy. As for synchronization, a semaphore is a very classical choice.
09:45:55 <oerjan> thus it would be better to use something else, like morse code
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09:58:33 <fizzie> Well, a semaphore is pretty primitive as far as primitives go -- though I guess a single atomic compare-and-swap instruction would be even more primitive -- and would work nicely as a Funge instruction, unlike some stranges concurrency thingies.
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10:03:41 <fizzie> You could even call the semaphore operations P and V like Dijkstra did. :p
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10:29:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, also compare-and-swap in funge space would be harder for my implementation
10:30:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, remember I plan to implement it in efunge, not in cfunge
10:30:24 <AnMaster> in fact efunge probably won't have the classical t at all
10:31:07 <fizzie> Well, a mutex is a special case of a semaphore (using only values 0, 1) so I'd go with a semaphore.
10:31:48 <AnMaster> (it is the thing the kernel use for both mutexes and semaphores iirc)
10:32:59 <AnMaster> To reiterate, bare futexes are not intended as an easy to use abstraction for end-users. Implementors are expected to be assembly
10:32:59 <AnMaster> literate and to have read the sources of the futex userspace library referenced below.
10:33:35 <AnMaster> nah futex wouldn't work I think
10:33:36 <fizzie> I know them. Well, I guess it's just a bit more primitivey and less abstract than a semaphore.
10:33:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, actually I think this could work:
10:34:07 <AnMaster> R - Resume another (suspended process)
10:34:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, it would allow syncing, but it would be hard to use
10:35:49 <AnMaster> remember I plan to implement it in a language where the concurrency is based on message passing
10:36:09 <AnMaster> + atomic read/write of a shared table (funge-space) as a special case
10:36:16 <AnMaster> but no compare-and-exchange for said table
10:36:26 <fizzie> I'm not sure you can do a completely race-condition-free mutual execution with just atomic reads, writes and suspend/resume... well, maybe, but there's a bit too many hoops to jump through in order for it to be comfortable to use. Of course if you're not aiming for "comfortable"...
10:37:10 <AnMaster> 1) t doesn't allow taking advantage of multi-core computers, I want my ATHR to be able to do that
10:37:42 <AnMaster> 2) it should be implementable in erlang in a reasonably simple way with reasonable performance
10:38:58 <AnMaster> actually semaphores may still be possible
10:40:01 <fizzie> Well, you can "easily" make a semaphore out of mutexes in the Funge code, so I guess it doesn't much matter.
10:43:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, erlang got something like mutexes (called global locks)
10:43:35 <AnMaster> now the second question: How will this interact with existing fingerprints
10:44:12 <AnMaster> actually output will work just fine, input won't
10:44:29 <AnMaster> due to the needed buffer stuff for input
10:45:15 <AnMaster> so input only works for the first ATHR thread I guess
10:47:52 <AnMaster> oh and I could allow compare and exchange, but only in respect other calls to the same compare-and-exchange fingerprint function, g and p could still clobber
10:49:58 <fizzie> If you have a synchronized queue, you could stick all your input characters in it in one thread, and your ~ could simply dequeue from there. Since & needs multiple characters and can't return until the whole number is read, it would mean that a thread in & would cause other threads doing ~ to block. Maybe not a bad thing. Your input queue would just need a "unget"-style 'put that thing back' function.
10:50:30 <fizzie> Sensible Funge programs will probably only do IO in one thread anyway, I guess.
10:50:50 <AnMaster> on a come-first-serve-first basis
10:51:43 <AnMaster> in fact erlang already have a module for something like that so you just write a callback module that fits into it
10:52:02 <AnMaster> called gen_server (generic server)
10:53:38 <AnMaster> Hm is it is a coincidence that "lock" is a subset of the word "block"
10:54:17 <fizzie> As for block-read/block-write operations (i, o, and various fingerprints like STRN's G, P) it would probably be enough to say that those are not atomic and the calling Funge code needs to explicitly synchronize them if necessary.
10:55:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you think anyone else will implement this fingerprint if I do it?
10:55:20 <AnMaster> or is it too insane and hard to do in most languages?
10:55:53 <AnMaster> (it would certainly be a pain in for example C)
10:56:01 <fizzie> Well, it doesn't sound _that_ difficult, at least if you don't think about implementing the atomic read/writes too efficiently.
10:57:33 <AnMaster> as long as it isn't running on distributed nodes it should actually work fairly well and be quite efficient, even with smp erlang I think
10:58:08 <AnMaster> as for instruction that could collide, consider SOCK and FILE
10:58:16 <AnMaster> especially the blocking operations in SOCK
10:58:38 <AnMaster> actually sockets and files would not be shared between ATHR threads
11:01:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, got any comments on this ATHR idea?
11:01:45 <fizzie> I'll think about implementing ATHR if I ever make that "FungeFriend" IDE. Although I think (if I feel like it and have some free time) I'll just start with a Befunge-friendly text editor that can do the "comment this strangely shaped region and make sure the comments follow when editing" thing.
11:02:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about making sure it realign <>^v as needed too?
11:02:39 <AnMaster> and allow writing in the different directions
11:02:53 <AnMaster> may not be possible to auto-realign always
11:03:48 <fizzie> There's a lot of helpful things it could do. Thank oklo.* for the name: [2008-10-13 14:02:13] < oklopol> more like a friend than an editor really.
11:05:32 <fizzie> I just have a feeling that if I really manage to make a befunge-friendly editor (with a large probability I won't even start) the temptation will be too great not to include a built-in interpreter/debugger in it.
11:13:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, there was a debugging protocol plan
11:13:34 <AnMaster> however since I didn't have time to work on it more I gave the maintainership of the idea to Deewiant, he was interested
11:13:39 <AnMaster> no idea what happened with that since then
11:13:58 <AnMaster> it would allow any interpreter and any frontend to interact via a socket, either tcp or unix ones
11:17:50 <Deewiant> mostly because CCBI work is still blocked on a compiler bug, and I've been doing other stuff
11:19:07 <AnMaster> is it acquire? or is that something else?
11:19:23 <Deewiant> acquire is something, what do you think it means :-P
11:22:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, "squire" and "acquire" were both suggested by aspell on "aquire"
11:22:47 <oerjan> have no quarrel with a squirrel
11:23:14 <oklopol> fizzie: well i would've suggested BeFriend, actually :)
11:23:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fizzie: http://rafb.net/p/lZ9yn918.html
11:24:44 <AnMaster> basically they will be served on a first-come first-serve basis from the same buffer
11:24:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is this something you may even consider implementing?
11:27:03 <oerjan> oklopol: WE WILL PROCESS YOUR DEATH SHORTLY
11:27:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, K only kills the current one
11:27:14 <AnMaster> I guess Q quit would be better
11:27:37 <fizzie> Q so that it matches q, maybe.
11:27:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is more like @ for the current process, rather than q for the whole interpreter
11:28:09 <AnMaster> the name in the standard I mean
11:28:28 <AnMaster> but q could maybe be easier to remember
11:28:42 <fizzie> Yes, but you can't do capitalized @. And Q is like "@ for multiple threads", much like q is "@ for multiple threads" too.
11:29:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, I always considered q like "@ for the whole interpreter"
11:29:17 <fizzie> Well, then, you can consider Q like "@ for the whole process".
11:29:41 <fizzie> Or maybe you could use "@, only really big", and then accept some rich text format input. :p
11:34:44 <oklopol> don't be so negative, that would be awesome
11:36:04 <oklopol> fizzie: you're quite an xml enthusiast
11:37:58 <AnMaster> http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/library/REFC.html
11:39:04 <oklopol> glad you got my new saying :)
11:39:45 <fizzie> Hmm. Well, the closest match to the spec would probably mean the references list is still completely global.
11:40:43 <fizzie> Yes, I think it would be good manners to automagically synchronize it so that people can just use D/R with impunity.
11:41:30 <fizzie> oklopol: 1. (1) impunity -- (exemption from punishment or loss)
11:41:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, TRDS and ATHR? I plan to define it to be undefined
11:41:47 <fizzie> oklopol: Used in the "without fear of bad things happening" sense.
11:41:52 <oklopol> hmm right i've heard "impune"
11:42:16 <fizzie> oklopol: Not any sort of "imp-unity" a worker's union of imps thing.
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11:42:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, that would be awesome!
11:42:46 <AnMaster> obviously they are related to the "demons flying out of the nose" stuff
11:43:17 <fizzie> Incidentally, do your S-spawned processes start with a copy of the spawning thread's stack, like t does?
11:43:39 <Slereah_> <AnMaster> obviously they are related to the "demons flying out of the nose" stuff < wat
11:43:52 <fizzie> Slereah_: The imp unity movement.
11:44:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think that would make sense
11:44:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, still there are some issues with regards to t to fix
11:44:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: I guess it would, since it's what I was expecting. And everyone knows I make sense.
11:44:27 <AnMaster> 1) thread ids as returned by y
11:44:41 <AnMaster> 2) are all threads in a ATHR duplicated when using S?
11:44:45 <fizzie> (Zounds, sometimes I make almost as much sense as fungot.)
11:44:45 <fungot> fizzie: how's it going?) reply " en oo mikään mies" or something
11:44:53 <AnMaster> and for 1 that they should be unique
11:45:00 <fizzie> Hah, fungot's speaking Finnish.
11:45:01 <fungot> fizzie: can you explain what purpose display serves other than for.
11:45:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, what did that Finnish mean?
11:45:57 <fizzie> "I'm not a man" is the meaning, although it has a distinct style that I can't really translate right now.
11:46:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway what about the two issues I mentioned?
11:46:58 <fizzie> 1) Unique is good, although probably doesn't matter much; 2) I personally would expect it to start only the single thread doing S.
11:48:15 <fizzie> I wouldn't worry about TRDS at all, it's such a mess.
11:48:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, so I might safely define it as "trying to use TRDS and ATHR at the same time SHALL cause demons to fly out of the Funge programmers nose"?
11:49:33 <AnMaster> or maybe just saying undefined is better
11:49:34 <fizzie> I wouldn't have a problem with that. How does the TRDS time travel interact with Funge-space modifications and input/output, anyway?
11:49:45 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever really read the spec.
11:50:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think it replays everything since tick 0
11:50:19 <AnMaster> for the funge-space modification bit
11:50:26 <AnMaster> for io I think it may be undefined
11:51:02 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure it should retract all io that's been done.
11:51:20 <oklopol> because i recall lolling about that when reading the spec
11:51:40 <fizzie> Maybe it prints out "hey, please ignore the last <n> characters I wrote, and also when I next ask for input, retype whatever you wrote for the last <m> characters, okay?"
11:57:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, Deewiant: http://rafb.net/p/XItxWi85.html
11:58:16 <AnMaster> any other fingerprints that may interact badly with ATHR?
12:00:06 <Deewiant> why not "several universes in an ATHR"?
12:00:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I consider that for ordering purposes MVRS is the top layer, ATHR comes next, and lowest is t
12:01:06 <Deewiant> or maybe I just don't get what that's saying
12:01:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "madness of funge-implementation maintainers"?
12:01:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I honestly don't get what that whole thing is saying
12:02:17 <Deewiant> so, if you're running in MVRS, and you have two ATHRs running... what?
12:02:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well you agree that MVRS ATHR and t needs to have a well defined order with respect to each other
12:03:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, consider MVRS a sack that can contains thread and ATHRs.
12:03:13 <AnMaster> consider ATHR a stack that can contains threads
12:03:36 <Deewiant> right, but what would ATHRs containing MVRSs even be?
12:03:52 <Deewiant> multiple independent funge interpreters that can't talk to each other?
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12:05:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: are mutexes shared across universes?
12:06:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: How does this MVRS thing work? How can the universes communicate?
12:06:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually they might be
12:06:54 <AnMaster> really truly global would be easier for me to code
12:06:56 <Deewiant> fizzie: RTFM, I don't know: http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcfunge2_manual.html#MVRS
12:07:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what happened to the stuff we were discussing about threading MVRS universes anyway?
12:07:20 <Deewiant> can all that be implemented with ATHR and the current MVRS?
12:07:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, isn't the current MVRS already async?
12:07:53 <AnMaster> anyway ATHR is a different approach to async threads than MVRS
12:08:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but we wanted the option of sync vs. async
12:08:13 <Deewiant> and I suspect Mike's impl is sync
12:08:45 <fizzie> The FM is not very verbose again. What does "go to another universe" mean, does it migrate the current 't'-style IP there or what?
12:08:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ATHR won't allow sync
12:08:59 <AnMaster> in fact I will write that it is bad style to implement it as sync
12:09:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ATHR may even be distributed across computers if you want
12:09:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but for multiple MVRS universes, we want the option of running them in or out of sync
12:09:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well true. But MVRSes in an ATHR wouldn't make sense
12:10:07 <fizzie> If each MVRS universe has its own set of ATHR processes, what would MVRS's "go to another universe" operation do?
12:10:39 <AnMaster> well if each ATHR had it's own set of MVRS universes, how the heck would anything work at all!
12:11:21 <fizzie> Obviously it won't work at all; I'm just wondering how MVRS/ATHR play together in the "sensible" ordering.
12:11:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, in fact what does G do at all really?
12:12:05 <fizzie> "Goes to another universe".
12:12:20 <AnMaster> as far as I remember it was moving the current ip to another universe, keeping it's current stack
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12:12:28 <fizzie> Yes, that's what I'd expect.
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12:12:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, that may have been J though
12:12:39 <fizzie> There's G which takes pos/delta and J which keeps it.
12:13:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well no idea, ask Mike Riley
12:13:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for ATHR it would be same as for t really
12:14:44 <fizzie> Anyway, if you have an IP in a ATHR process which suddenly decides to jump to another universe (and you really wish to specify the ATHR/MVRS interaction) you probably need to say something about in which process in the new universe the thread will appear, and what will happen to mutexes held and so on. Unless it takes the whole ATHR process with it, but that doesn't really make too much sense either.
12:15:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, mutexes should be truly global
12:16:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: might be a good idea to take the MVRS ideas we had way back when and look over them, possibly mail Mike and somehow fit them and ATHR together
12:19:14 <fizzie> ATHR sounds a lot simpler than the MVRS thing, though. It's just pthreads in funge form, with shared memory and all. (And with little synchronized 't'-threads inside them, but that's just a detail.)
12:19:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes basically, and ATHR should allow different processes on different computers
12:20:09 <AnMaster> it may be insanely slow however
12:20:22 <AnMaster> unless you locally cache funge space or something
12:20:48 <AnMaster> with messages for when it is updated by someone else
12:21:12 <AnMaster> but that would be blocking until all are updated
12:24:24 <fizzie> Since the ATHR processes are asynchronous, I'm not sure you really need to care precisely about when the funge-space modifications of other processes are visible. Explicit synchronization primitives like those mutexes would need some communication, though.
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12:31:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you think about that ^
12:31:22 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Since the ATHR processes are asynchronous, I'm not sure you really need to care precisely about when the funge-space modifications of other processes are visible. Explicit synchronization primitives like those mutexes would need some communication, though.
12:31:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, should the change to funge space be visible in all processes once g or p returns
12:32:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway that means you need a sync all of funge-space instruction
12:32:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm that would make distributed ATHR slow
12:32:46 <AnMaster> since otherwise you might just send a message to each node to update the local funge-space copy
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12:33:10 <AnMaster> (since not having a local copy would be insanely slow there)
12:33:12 <Deewiant> well, since the environment is fundamentally global...
12:33:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: this is why I think fixing MVRS is a better idea
12:33:58 <Deewiant> because then each process can have truly its own environment
12:34:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well this doesn't aim to replace MVRS, it aims to do something different.
12:34:35 <Deewiant> yes, and I don't think this is very useful :-)
12:34:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so CCBI won't implement it?
12:35:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well rest assured that TRDS is undefined with respect to ATHR
12:36:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however I think this can still work distributed and multi-core
12:37:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is it missing that would make it useful?
12:37:16 <Deewiant> I don't think it can be made useful
12:37:26 <Deewiant> like said, funge is just fundamentally a global world
12:37:39 <Deewiant> distributing it over multiple machines will only bog things down with communication
12:38:04 <Deewiant> unless you split the world into bits somehow... but that's just going into MVRS territory
12:38:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you could locally cache Funge-Space of course
12:38:42 <AnMaster> and use message passing for sending updates to funge space
12:38:50 <AnMaster> making that async would be better than sync imo
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12:38:54 <Deewiant> yes, and it's still going to be too much overhead for no gain IMO
12:39:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ATHR will work well running on multiple cores of a single CPU however
12:39:45 <Deewiant> will it? you still need to sync funge-space accesses - of which there are at least n, where n is the number of threads, /every tick/
12:40:00 <Deewiant> in which case I'm not sure if it's useful for anything at all ;-)
12:40:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well that is easy in my case
12:40:17 <AnMaster> Erlang got atomic updates to so called ETS tables
12:40:22 <Deewiant> easy to code, whatever, but slow as heck
12:40:27 <AnMaster> which are the sort of hash tables I already use
12:40:39 <AnMaster> they are used for db backend too
12:41:13 <Deewiant> an additional two CAS instructions every tick will hurt a lot, I think
12:42:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so async updates to funge space then as I suggested but you didn't like
12:42:25 <Deewiant> seems to me that pretty much everything is undefined with async
12:42:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not really, still well defined as one of the changes will win
12:42:56 <AnMaster> in the end you won't end up with desynced funge-space
12:43:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, agreed, why did you think I provided mutexes?
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12:43:37 <Deewiant> I think it'll just serve to make the code full of explicit syncing
12:43:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Avoid side effects then ;P
12:43:53 <Deewiant> but do give it a try, if you can find a use case that works then good :-P
12:44:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: kinda hard in a language without local state
12:44:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: every instruction executed comes from the global state
12:44:38 <Deewiant> so there's a side effect /always/
12:44:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, very true, but if you never modify funge space and use stack-stack instead to store data?
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12:45:11 <Deewiant> the interpreter can't know whether you modify funge space or not
12:45:26 <Deewiant> so, again, "without much benefit" :-P
12:45:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed it can't unless I actually implement that NX fingerprint I was thinking about
12:45:56 <AnMaster> no-execute/no-write/no-read as flags for blocks of funge-space
12:46:18 <AnMaster> but that only makes it a better idea for funge
12:52:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it seems that shared ets tables actually got good performance even when multiple threads update them, I asked in #erlang. ets tables can't be directly distributed however, so that would need some more work
12:52:54 <fizzie> Personally I think I could just fine use asynchronously running threads (with explicit synchronization primitives provided) in fungot; to run the brainfuck interpreter, for example. It just needs to allocate few rows of funge-space for each concurrently running brainfuck program to use as local state.
12:53:13 <AnMaster> but they work across SMP erlang
12:55:20 <ehird> fizzie: mind if I have a go at befungefriend sometime?
12:55:23 <AnMaster> or G could mean it requested that other parts would sync any g/p
12:55:26 <ehird> it sounds like a worthy project, i'd like to have a bash at it
12:56:17 <ehird> I'd have to do it in Qt or wxWidgets or something, though, for the "works on something other than my machine" factor. Blergh. Hmm... wait... I could just use one of the countless interfaces to Swing.
12:56:23 <ehird> That'd be less suicidal-tendencies.
12:56:28 <ehird> (Note: Swing can be set to use native widgets)
12:56:53 <ehird> [Less talking, more coding.]
13:00:23 <ehird> AnMaster: No, not really -
13:00:31 <AnMaster> also Swing doesn't use native here as far as I seen
13:00:35 <ehird> You'd need Java, obviously, but I'd just use a Java bridge to use Swing
13:00:39 <ehird> and write the rest in something else
13:00:40 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a setting
13:00:43 <ehird> up to the app for some reason
13:00:46 <ehird> (Probably legacy...)
13:01:11 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, I suggest using GTK+, QT, or wxWidgets
13:01:24 <AnMaster> even GTK+ got native OS X support these days
13:01:28 <ehird> AnMaster: No it doesn't.
13:01:34 <ehird> It can draw on Quartz, yes - but that's in a beta stage
13:01:37 <ehird> and it still doesn't look native.
13:01:49 <ehird> And it never will, because a Cocoa-using theme engine would not work very well.
13:01:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, I've used QT before and dabbed in wxWidgets.
13:02:03 <ehird> I'll use what seems to be the nicest API, really.
13:02:10 <AnMaster> well QT is C++.. so that is a downside
13:02:19 <ehird> AnMaster: Language bindings, man. :-P
13:02:24 <ehird> I'm not writing a funge IDE in C
13:02:31 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah ok, python I guess
13:03:00 <ehird> worth noting - the Terminator terminal software uses the native Swing stuff: http://software.jessies.org/terminator/ - and does quite a good job at it, I used it on this machine for a while, it's pretty nice
13:03:14 <ehird> The font rendering is a bit kooky on the Linux screenshot, but I imagine that could be fixed.
13:03:16 <fizzie> It's _Python_, of course it's got bindings to just about anythg. PyGTK and all.
13:03:26 <ehird> (That screenshot seems to be from Ubuntu 5.something. Wowzers.)
13:03:42 <ehird> fizzie: I tried to use SWIG to bind the Python C api to Python
13:06:21 <ehird> Oh, worth noting about that Terminator software -
13:06:26 <ehird> the guy's useraccount is "elliotth"!
13:06:36 <AnMaster> <ehird> fizzie: I tried to use SWIG to bind the Python C api to Python <-- heh...
13:06:46 <ehird> How many people have Elliott as a first name with the same spelling and also a surname starting in h?
13:07:33 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes font looks bad I agree
13:07:53 <AnMaster> QT gets the font "correct" here and same on any other OS I seen
13:09:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: my point was that even if you get the most optimal performance possible it's a waste of time
13:09:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, I have used Qt. But it is subtly nonnative on OS X.
13:10:07 <ehird> It doesn't actually use native widgets... it just draws its lookalikes.
13:10:12 <ehird> It's especially noticable in right-click menus.
13:10:28 <ehird> (Before you say anything: shut up, this is #esoteric, I can be pednatic)
13:12:07 <ehird> wxwidgets has a nicer api than qt, but it does the same thing as Qt (just pretends), except whereas you wouldn't really notice with Qt, wxwidgets looks like someone put one of those OS X imitation skins on to windows
13:12:51 <ehird> But Swing has a semi-nice API and is properly native (or at least a damn good imitation) on everything. :-P
13:12:58 <AnMaster> ehird, really swing doesn't look good at all on linux, since even when set to look like native, it looks like a bad copy of GTK
13:12:59 <ehird> Also Java _is_ open source.
13:13:04 <AnMaster> it doesn't even look like good GTK
13:13:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Um, a minute ago you were saying you didn't know it could go native.
13:13:15 <AnMaster> and I don't consider GTK very native
13:13:49 <AnMaster> ehird, a minute ago I hadn't checked out an example in jdk that allows changing the theme for swign
13:14:42 <ehird> I could just leave Swing at its default, non-native theme on X11 then. As X11 has absolutely no "native" widgets, that would be valid.
13:15:11 <AnMaster> ehird, oh it have natives ones
13:15:28 <ehird> AnMaster: No, those are Athena, I think.
13:15:32 <ehird> either way, not actually native x11.
13:15:42 <ehird> Xt is bundled with x11, yes, but xlib does not have any widgets
13:18:12 <AnMaster> ehird, also xlib is kind of outdated, it is to be replaced with xcb
13:18:26 <AnMaster> in fact in last X release xlib is a wrapper for xcb iirc
13:18:36 <ehird> i wanna make an app that directly talks to the x server
13:18:54 <AnMaster> ehird, not after you read the protocol...
13:19:06 <ehird> AnMaster: one thing with xcb is it's reaaaaaaaaaally low level
13:19:17 <ehird> a basic xlib program is like 30 lines and pretty readable
13:19:27 <ehird> xcb is a mess of stuff
13:19:32 <ehird> but i guess that's ok
13:19:38 <ehird> if you want highlevel, why aren't you using a toolkit
13:19:39 <AnMaster> I thought it was xlib that was the mess?
13:19:55 <ehird> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XCB#Example vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xlib#Example
13:19:59 <ehird> to me the later is more understandable
13:20:51 <fizzie> A friend wrote "directly to a socket with linux syscalls" X11 thing to open a suitable OpenGL surface, because he didn't like the overhead of xlib.
13:21:19 <ehird> I'm so glad I have a computer that is less than 20 years old :
13:21:22 <AnMaster> "because I can" would be the only valid reason for that
13:21:46 <ehird> [[* AnMaster agrees with ehird]]
13:21:53 <ehird> stop exploding the universe, ok?
13:21:57 <ehird> you did that a week or so ago
13:21:59 <ehird> really, be more thoughtful
13:22:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well you have a paradox here
13:22:18 <AnMaster> "<ehird> really, be more thoughtful"
13:22:23 <AnMaster> should I agree or disagree with that?
13:22:36 <AnMaster> either way will be a paradox according to you
13:23:01 <AnMaster> ehird, if I did that I would agree with your suggestion to do both
13:23:09 <ehird> i retract that suggestion
13:23:19 <AnMaster> I agree that was a good action
13:24:11 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway it was you that caused the paradox
13:24:23 <AnMaster> by saying something that made sense, for once
13:25:56 <ehird> turtle moron avocado
13:26:19 <AnMaster> ehird, no idea what you meant with that
13:26:56 <ehird> because you suck! ;d
13:27:26 <AnMaster> ehird, you forgot the ~ at the end
13:27:33 <ehird> that was sarcasm? :|
13:27:47 <AnMaster> ehird, well I guess so, since it wasn't truth
13:33:26 <ehird> atom sucks slightly less
13:33:52 <ehird> RSS doesn't even mean anything.
13:33:53 <ehird> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/02/04/incompatible-rss
13:34:05 <ehird> 9 incompatible versions of RSS, some even sharing versions!
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13:53:46 <ehird> http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/cartoonlounge/2008/10/cartoonoff-xkcd.html The New Yorker challenges xkcd to a comic-off.
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13:57:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fizzie, new draft: http://rafb.net/p/hTJxdL27.html
13:58:16 <ehird> [[In this specification the word process is used to indicate an "async thread",
13:58:16 <ehird> unlike a normal Funge thread created by t (called thread in this specification).
13:58:19 <ehird> call them threads.
13:58:31 <AnMaster> ehird, that would confuse with t-style threads
13:58:42 <AnMaster> since we need to discuss interaction with those threads
13:59:02 <ehird> AnMaster: So call them what they are
13:59:08 <ehird> or 'green threads'
13:59:14 <fizzie> t-style threads can be referred to as "IPs", though.
13:59:16 <AnMaster> ehird, that is implementation defined
13:59:40 <fizzie> Are you sure you didn't just inherit the "process" word from Erlang? :p
13:59:40 <ehird> AnMaster: call them bogonomons then
13:59:52 <ehird> fizzie: he has erlang on the brain. so probaly
14:00:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, I agree it affected my thinking of course, such as I got the name mutex from pthreads
14:00:17 <AnMaster> they are called "locks" in erlang
14:00:49 <ehird> i am a delicious bogomips
14:02:24 <fizzie> For some reason that reminded me about the "I am an atomic playboy" line of second reality, even though there's not much in common with them except the "I am a" prefix.
14:02:57 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Reality
14:03:22 <fizzie> Oh, it was "I am _not_ an".
14:03:28 <fizzie> Even worse, I misremembered it.
14:03:49 <fizzie> It's there in the "Magnifying and rotating head" section. (Didn't know wikipedia had a _that_ through article about it.)
14:04:16 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G_aUxbbqWU Jewtube of it
14:04:19 <fizzie> I wonder if there's been notability debates.
14:04:32 <ehird> for all X, there has been notability debates about X
14:04:37 <ehird> unless X is hitler or churchill
14:07:07 <AnMaster> is that chur-chill or chruch-ill, or even churc-hill?
14:07:38 <ehird> church-hill... i think...
14:07:45 <AnMaster> well there is a h missing then
14:07:45 <ehird> if you're talking about prononuciation
14:07:55 <ehird> and no, well, you pronounce it churchill
14:08:48 <ehird> Churchill insurance comes before Churchill's WP article on google for "churchill"
14:09:56 <ehird> (iirc, a survey of kids recently showed that kids knew "churchill" as the talking dog plush thing from the churchill adverts, not even thinking about the prime minister)
14:10:39 <AnMaster> I never heard of that insurance company before now...
14:10:50 <ehird> As far as I know it's a UK thing.
14:11:26 <oklopol> i don't believe in churches
14:11:33 <ehird> oklopol: as in, they don't exist?
14:11:56 <oklopol> i mean, i've been to one, but it didn't seem too real imo
14:12:04 <ehird> probably one of those fake churches
14:12:09 <ehird> did the bishop move diagonally?
14:12:19 <oklopol> i didn't even see a bishop
14:13:17 <ehird> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081015-opera-study-only-4-13-of-the-web-is-standards-compliant.html <-- ...but if you ask idiots, they'll tell you "browsers should just reject invalid pages and the pressure would make all the web become compliant overnight"!
14:13:21 <oklopol> #math is pretty helpful, "can you give me a hint on X?" "what about it?" "well how to *do* it" "it can be done."
14:14:06 <ehird> oklopol: hate places like that, i asked a q the other day and I ask "i can't use X because of why what should I do?" and i got the reply "don't use X"
14:14:26 <fizzie> For some reason I begin to feel slightly nauseous whenever I'm in an Orthodox Christian church. Doesn't happen in other places; might be all that incence.
14:14:53 <ehird> fizzie: or it might be the LIES AND DECEIT FOR THE PURPOSE OF CONTROL BEHIND THE MYTHS THEY TEACH YOU
14:14:56 <ehird> ... probably not :D
14:15:05 <fizzie> Probably not, as it doesn't happen in other churches.
14:15:40 <ehird> fizzie: Perhaps it's to do with the percentage of priests raping little boys at the time. Pick a better time to go in those churches.
14:16:15 <fizzie> I thought that was mostly a Catholic thing. Don't know.
14:16:34 <fizzie> "You know, that religion with the raping priests."
14:16:44 <fizzie> Heh, that might be offensive.
14:16:50 <ehird> fizzie: They're modernizing, trying to bring in new ideas and such.
14:16:52 <ehird> Tolerance and all htat.
14:21:33 <fizzie> I think I'll have to go and fetch our new bathroom faucet now. (They sent us a wrong kind of one.)
14:32:52 <ehird> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/16/android_kill_switch/
14:33:02 <ehird> There goes the thinking that Android would be a nicer, more open platform than iPhone.
14:33:07 <ehird> Unless the dear reg is hyperboling again.
14:34:54 <AnMaster> I saw a funny add last year for a protestant church in the newspaper
14:36:06 <AnMaster> it was in Swedish, but basically it looked like an ISP ad. The text said something like: "Wireless - Free connection to god all the time" "Unlimited transfer rate for prayer" and "Free support at your local church."
14:36:24 <ehird> that's factually incorrect
14:36:27 <ehird> humans can only pray so fast...
14:37:56 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I said "said something like", I don't remember the exact wording. So it *may* be a misquotation. But it was similar to that
14:38:16 <AnMaster> ehird, also computers can only handle data so fast too
14:38:31 <ehird> Well yeah... that's why there aren't any ISPs offering unlimited transfer rate
14:38:40 <ehird> Seriously, you'd get like...500 TB/sec
14:38:59 <ehird> (Unmetered bandwidth, sure. I have that.)
14:39:17 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed, it may have been unlimited transfer quota or such
14:39:43 <ehird> If I was god I'd kick the ass of some whiny guy who prayed whenever he tripped and fell :D
14:40:21 <AnMaster> (And it looks like an isp ad by having a bunch of cables in the ad.)
14:40:45 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway the point was that it was rather funny
14:41:15 <ehird> Well, a bunch of cables is just incorrect (things are generally funnier when they are misleading but correct).
14:41:32 <ehird> Unless this church was a weird cult that made you swallow an ethernet cable plugged into god, I guess.
14:41:36 <AnMaster> ehird, however consider may ISP ads have a bunch of cable in it
14:41:53 <AnMaster> also it was the protestant church
14:48:06 <AnMaster> ehird, actually the exact wording seems to have been "Wireless\nPrayer is free\nUnmetered bandwidth\nAlways conencted\nPray when you want, where you want and how you want\n\nFree support in all churches\nThe Swedish church\nStockholms stift" (stift is the name for the area that one bishop handles or something like that iirc)
14:48:30 <ehird> AnMaster: gee really
14:48:33 <ehird> i thought it meant nostril
14:48:33 <AnMaster> oh and "unmetered bandwidth" would actually translate to "unlimited bandwith"
14:48:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I just didn't know how to translate it
14:48:54 <ehird> What, newline? :-P
14:49:21 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway if I hadn't said that you would have said "really did the ad use \n literally?" or something
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14:49:41 <ehird> That would be awesome
14:51:03 <AnMaster> "The preliminary data published today by Opera provides some intriguing statistics about the use of specific HTML elements. Among the pages analyzed by MAMA, the most popular HTML tags were HEAD, TITLE, HTML, BODY, A, META, IMG, AND TABLE. The list of least popular tags includes VAR, DEL, AND BDO."
14:51:13 <AnMaster> someone linked that page above
14:51:22 <AnMaster> anyway this makes me wonder what is wrong with <p>
14:51:47 <ehird> And nothing, but people don't care about it.
14:52:00 <AnMaster> ehird, err? How else to separate paragraphs?
14:52:05 <ehird> AnMaster: <br><br>
14:52:18 <ehird> It's silly, it's unsemantic, but nobody cares.
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14:52:45 <oklopol> i care a negative amount, you should use <br><br> *because* it's worse for that purpose.
14:52:52 <ehird> oklopol: but you're oklopol
14:53:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, hey, this is #esoteric, but the whole world isn't #esoteric
14:53:12 <ehird> haha, i just checked the vjn homepage
14:53:29 <ehird> oklopol: vjn.fi uses <br \>
14:53:32 <AnMaster> ehird, and this indicates that because the whole world does it the incorrect way we should all write strictly correct html
14:53:35 <ehird> that's neither html nor xhtml XD
14:53:55 <AnMaster> ehird, but we are all #esoteric
14:54:05 <AnMaster> and I said we should, since nobody else does
14:54:08 <oklopol> a guy in our group used that for a while, until i told them it means nothing
14:54:19 <oklopol> seems it's on the front page now, i find that a good thing
14:54:27 <ehird> maybe it's reverse-self-closing
14:54:31 <ehird> it sort of... self-opens
14:55:06 <ehird> strangely, vjn.fi actually uses p and css
14:55:40 <ehird> A US judge has thrown out a case against God, ruling that because the defendant has no address, legal papers cannot be served.
14:55:40 <ehird> -- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7673591.stm
14:56:15 <oklopol> ehird: the guy who used <br \> is more the big picture type, the css is pretty good
14:56:39 <ehird> oklopol: do you have committees working on that site
14:58:54 <AnMaster> ehird, only an American would be that mad yeah
14:59:00 <ehird> i thought you meant
14:59:06 <ehird> the link didn't let you in XD
14:59:17 <ehird> AnMaster: it wasn't a sueing
14:59:27 <ehird> also i think it was to make a point, you know
14:59:31 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernie_Chambers
14:59:34 <ehird> AnMaster: it was a lawsuit
14:59:45 <AnMaster> ehird, ah right, does "suing" mean something else?
15:00:11 <ehird> this is where i link you to the wikipedia page
15:00:18 <ehird> i read what you said wrong
15:00:43 <AnMaster> There is no page titled "suing".
15:00:54 <ehird> i read what you said wrong <- dis
15:01:14 <AnMaster> There is no page titled "i read what you said wrong".
15:01:33 <ehird> ååååååååååååååååååååååååå
15:02:01 <AnMaster> ehird, if you meant it as aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.... with some extra effect then it doesn't work
15:02:13 <AnMaster> å is ppronouncedvery differently
15:02:22 <ehird> no i was just having fun
15:02:35 <AnMaster> å is pronounced very differently
15:02:41 <ehird> meanwhile i'm trying to make the most minimal feed reader ever and now I want to kill myself :D
15:02:50 <AnMaster> however the spelling correction breaks after an unicode char
15:02:51 <ehird> stupid ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff rss atom fsfsfsfsdjfkdsf
15:03:38 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, but i don't think this'll be too hard from where i am now, also i used netnewswire but i want something way more minimal
15:07:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | BABABABDBDBABABBDBBABBDBABDDD.
15:07:44 <AnMaster> ehird, care to look up context for the topic optbot just set?
15:07:44 <optbot> AnMaster: more like german
15:08:54 <ehird> 08.03.15:14:47:21 <ehird> BABABABDBDBABABBDBBABBDBABDDD
15:09:07 <AnMaster> ehird, heh, and in what context whas that?
15:09:20 <ehird> 14:44:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wow, this is pretty
15:09:20 <ehird> 14:44:52 <AnMaster> Assuming that instructions without any particular concurrency-related behaviour, such as ^>v<#, take one tick.
15:09:21 <ehird> 14:44:52 <AnMaster> Will continue to produce textual output, so strings must work correctly where concurrency is concerned: "a b" should take 5 ticks, 'a should take 1.
15:09:21 <ehird> 14:44:52 <AnMaster> GGGGGGOGOGOGOGOGOGOOGOOGOOGOOGOOGOODGOODGOODGOODGOODGOODGO:ODGO:ODGO:ODGO:ODGO
15:09:23 <ehird> 14:45:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that's good I assume? :D
15:09:25 <ehird> 14:45:02 <AnMaster> ;)
15:09:27 <ehird> 14:47:21 <ehird> BABABABDBDBABABBDBBABBDBABDDD
15:09:31 <ehird> 14:49:03 <AnMaster> ehird, found it, ip didn't move correctly after split
15:23:38 <ehird> http://inamidst.com/stuff/2008/thing.pl
15:33:20 <ehird> but it looks like perl
15:33:57 <AnMaster> ehird, and what does that mean?
15:34:00 <ehird> thought that was ::-12
15:34:09 <ehird> AnMaster: [:-12] is a slice with an implicit first 0, that is
15:34:16 <ehird> so you get all but the last 12 chars
15:34:29 <ehird> well, ::-1 reverses
15:34:34 <ehird> :: is a bit complex...
15:34:45 <ehird> >>> 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'[::-12]
15:34:54 <ehird> i don't know how that works either
15:35:02 <ehird> http://www.python.org/doc/2.3/whatsnew/section-slices.html
15:35:10 <AnMaster> ehird, you should ask #python?
15:35:21 <ehird> http://www.python.org/doc/2.3/whatsnew/section-slices.html
15:35:40 <ehird> please actually read it
15:35:52 <AnMaster> ehird, so searching for ::- using browser doesn't work?
15:36:03 <ehird> sometimes there is a thing called english
15:36:05 <ehird> formatted into prose
15:36:07 <ehird> sometimes you read it
15:36:09 <ehird> with your eyes and your brain.
15:36:34 <AnMaster> though I agree syntax is slightly mad for that
15:36:58 <AnMaster> ehird, btw would a perl/python polygot be possible?
15:37:19 <ehird> But most likely not.
15:37:26 <AnMaster> without considering the #! line I mean
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16:04:13 <AnMaster> fizzie and Deewiant are you there?
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16:22:35 <AnMaster> remember that MKRY fingerprint you made?
16:22:53 <AnMaster> so it doesn't work as a parody ;P
16:23:13 <ehird> how was it too well defined
16:23:25 <ehird> http://tusho.net/mkry/ is as vague as you can get
16:24:04 <AnMaster> ehird, it is actually implementable from that spec
16:24:20 <AnMaster> I can't see how to make it more vague, but really it is easy to implement from that
16:24:20 <ehird> mmmmm... not really
16:24:29 <ehird> AnMaster: only because i clarified it to you
16:24:44 <AnMaster> ehird, no I can easily see how it would work from that spec
16:24:53 <ehird> AnMaster: how do you know E doesn't push like 'eeeee' or 'hhhhhh'
16:24:58 <ehird> nothing to say that it's random per character
16:25:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well apart from that it is clear
16:25:23 <ehird> its tiny, "that" is a big part
16:47:59 <AnMaster> ehird, is "implementors" the right word for "a person making an implementation of something"?
16:49:01 <AnMaster> hm en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implementer
16:49:41 <ehird> AnMaster: i'd just say "implementors"
16:50:09 <Asztal> both are acceptable, according to dictonary.com
16:51:16 <oklopol> i wouldn't trust dictonary.com on this matter
16:52:37 <oklopol> http://www.dictonary.com/ well, glasses are a sign of intelligence, i guess
16:52:56 <ehird> ah, you're picking on a typo
16:52:58 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes of course I always knew that. Thanks
16:53:07 <ehird> asztal dictionary.com
16:53:28 <AnMaster> oklopol, also do you have glasses?
16:53:49 <oklopol> it's just dictonary could be a dyslexic dictionary, o and e could easily have swapped there
16:54:03 <oklopol> it was a *relevant* joke based on the typo
16:54:38 <oklopol> umm no, glasses and allergies are for lesser people
16:54:53 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklogod.
16:55:15 <oklogod> my eyes are both perfect and reaaaally sucky
16:55:39 <oklogod> occasionally, they simply lose the ability to ...sharpen? whazzz the term now
16:55:56 <oklogod> but, usually i see like a bear with large glasses
17:00:41 <AnMaster> you wouldn't actually consider glasses a sign of intelligence then?
17:00:46 <AnMaster> Since you don't wear them yourself
17:01:13 <AnMaster> oklogod, obviously you only would if you needed them yourself
17:01:36 <oklogod> are you confusing implication and equivalence?
17:02:04 <AnMaster> also I suggest you clarify that.
17:02:15 <AnMaster> However there is no connection I think.
17:02:29 <oklogod> why would i only consider glasses a sign of intelligence if i had ones myself?
17:02:42 <AnMaster> oklogod, isn't that pretty clear?
17:03:16 <AnMaster> as a god you would be omniscient (or whatever it is called, omnipotent?) so I wouldn't need explaining
17:03:50 <oklogod> umm, so they can't be a sign of intelligence, because if they were, i couldn't be intelligent without them?
17:04:11 <AnMaster> oklogod, No... now you are just confusing the issue even more
17:04:20 <oklogod> glasses => intelligence doesn't rule out !glasses ^ intelligence
17:04:42 <AnMaster> (not glasses) bitwise_xor intelligence
17:05:08 <AnMaster> (logical_not glasses) bitwise_and intelligence
17:05:41 <oklogod> it's not? "not to have glasses and still be intelligent"
17:06:01 <AnMaster> oklogod, I suggest they are two uncorrelated variables.
17:06:19 <ehird> oklogod is saying:
17:06:23 <oklogod> AnMaster: i suggest you learn the difference between implication and equivalence
17:06:36 <ehird> (glasses => intelligence) & !(!glasses => !intelligence)
17:06:37 <oklogod> and also i suggest you learn to ski and buy a boat
17:06:40 <ehird> and i agree with oklogod
17:06:45 <ehird> he needs to learn thus
17:06:58 <AnMaster> ehird, well what you just said was pretty clear
17:07:23 <AnMaster> glasses implies intelligence, but lack of them doesn't implies lack intelligence
17:07:31 <oklogod> well, to be more precise, !((glasses => intelligence) => !(!glasses => !intelligence))
17:07:33 <AnMaster> just his use of bitwise operations in that were confusing
17:07:47 <ehird> he never used bitwise operators
17:07:53 <oklogod> some things are less clear than others
17:07:58 <ehird> just because all you can fucking think in is C does not mean ^ = xor and & = bitwise and
17:08:17 <AnMaster> ehird, well he didn't state what language he used
17:08:29 <ehird> AnMaster: so make a reasonable fucking assumption and see it's logic from the context
17:08:31 <oklogod> i apologized for ^, that could've meant xor, because had i had xors, i would probably have used ^ for them.
17:08:38 <ehird> <oklogod> glasses => intelligence doesn't rule out !glasses ^ intelligence
17:08:47 <ehird> doesn't make sense as equal to or greater than in that context
17:08:51 <ehird> nor does a bitwise operator
17:08:59 <ehird> you can pretty damn reasonably conclude it's using the language of logic
17:09:15 <AnMaster> ehird, this is #esoteric, stuff doesn't always make sense
17:09:29 -!- oklogod has changed nick to oklopol.
17:09:33 <ehird> that's always your excuse for being unreasonable
17:09:41 <ehird> #esoteric isn't about being intentionally annoying
17:09:53 <oklopol> i should be more careful, i'm beginning to show classic signs of narcism
17:10:05 <ehird> oklopol: but you are god.
17:11:46 <oklopol> heh, seems the universe likes boosting my ego, ex is asking for sex :D
17:12:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, should have decided not to become ex then maybe?
17:26:16 <AnMaster> Does pthreads allow any form of message passing?
17:26:21 <oklopol> why is there no time for codes anymore
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17:45:29 <fizzie> I think there's just mutexes, condition variables and the shared memory; but you can easily build message queues out of those.
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18:06:40 <ehird> Remind me sometime to write the 'u' program.
18:06:50 <ehird> (Lets you use URIs with regular utilities, like:)
18:07:05 <ehird> $ u cp http://google.com/ googles-index-page.html
18:07:19 <ehird> $ u echo "hi" > http://google.com/ # uses PUT or whatever
18:07:25 <ehird> that last one would be hard
18:07:31 <ehird> guess i'd need to modify zsh
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18:08:46 <fizzie> You could use some sort of indication in the "file" name to indicate what you want to do with the file (like "cp data PUT:http://google.com") but it's not nearly as pretty then.
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18:09:09 <ehird> But then I could just write a funky FS-like thing called /u/
18:09:21 <ehird> cat /u/http:/google.com
18:12:38 <fizzie> Fuse seems to have a 'httpfs' but it's sadly just "mount a single http:// URL somewhere".
18:12:59 <fizzie> And of course smbsh does that "hook to open and friends" trickery to provide their /smb magic-directory.
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18:16:01 <ehird> fizzie: /u/ is a bit of an ugly solution, though.
18:16:17 <ehird> really, all tools should just accept URIs as well as files :P
18:16:26 <ehird> Just treat filepaths as file://
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18:48:15 <AnMaster> <ehird> guess i'd need to modify zsh
18:48:39 <AnMaster> would you prefer emacs or vi if those where the only existing editors?
18:49:02 <AnMaster> ehird, as I said "if those were the only existing editors"
18:49:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/h4khwC72.html
18:49:32 <ehird> AnMaster: well, those are written in C, so I guess there's a c compiler too... i'd write my own
18:49:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, comments on this last version? Any fingerprints need to be listed as well?
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18:50:07 <AnMaster> ehird, really? But what if the system lacked a C compiler, maybe it was a binary distro with no toolchain installed, nor any internet connection
18:50:18 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd throw the computer out of the window.
18:50:32 <ehird> Not of any use to me/
18:50:34 <fizzie> ehird: If you really prefer ed, I'd recommend you to choose vim out of those two, since it has an 'ex' mode, and 'ex' is somewhat like 'ed'.
18:50:42 <AnMaster> ehird, ok then, which editor is best of emacs and vim if you have to choose?
18:50:43 <ehird> fizzie: No, I don't really
18:50:52 <ehird> AnMaster: depends on the usecase.
18:51:05 <AnMaster> ehird, text editor, programming and so on
18:51:10 <ehird> i use vi no matter what editor i use, for quickly tweaking config files
18:51:19 <ehird> and when i'm at the console and similar
18:51:28 <ehird> other than that, for actual coding, i'd go for emacs
18:51:34 <ehird> vi is a sysadmins tool, emacs is a coders tool
18:51:47 <ehird> and that sentence needs some apostrophes
18:51:48 <AnMaster> ehird, sh would you go for bash for quick tasks and zsh for more complex ones?
18:51:57 <ehird> because zsh scales
18:52:03 <ehird> from trivial stuff to complex stuff
18:52:12 <AnMaster> ehird, well zsh is rather large
18:52:17 <AnMaster> I'd even call it bloated sometimes
18:52:20 <ehird> I don't notice the largeness.
18:52:24 <ehird> I do when using, e.g. emacs.
18:52:37 <AnMaster> ehird, it got a built in ftp client even...
18:52:57 <ehird> No, it's got a builtin * client.
18:52:59 <ehird> Where * = everything.
18:53:02 <ehird> Except it's modular.
18:53:08 <AnMaster> zshzftpsys Zsh built-in FTP client
18:53:17 <ehird> AnMaster: I can autocomplete remote paths with scp.
18:53:25 <ehird> Of course it has tons of features, but they're modular.
18:53:36 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm just saying that of course it has a ton of stuff like that.
18:53:38 <ehird> That's what zsh is about.
18:53:47 <ehird> But it's not like they're cluttering up the codebase, they're modular.
18:53:52 <ehird> And they don't interfere with anything else.
18:53:54 <ehird> What is the problem?
18:54:19 <AnMaster> ehird, and so does bash, bash-completion is a flexible and fairly simple framework, that allow bash functions that generate possible completions for specific commands
18:54:28 <ehird> Yes. That's completion.
18:54:43 <AnMaster> and you can do everything you can do in zsh in bash
18:55:04 <ehird> The day you show me a bash installation that can do everything zsh does without resorting to the absurd TC argument is the day I don't switch because zsh has done it all for years already and bash doesn't offer any further advantages.
18:55:35 <AnMaster> ehird, well tc argument is used a lot in this channel
18:55:54 <ehird> just you use it in a non-joke discussion
18:55:59 <ehird> that is not the TC argument
18:56:10 <ehird> the tc argument is "well, that's irrelevant, they are both TC, therefore they are equally as good"
18:56:30 <AnMaster> ehird, where did I say that exact quote?
18:56:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I never claimed it was as easy to do it in both those languages
18:56:58 <ehird> Humans do this thing called "interpretation" whereby we change english text into semantic graphs in our head.
18:57:32 <AnMaster> ehird, idea how to solve: Talk in semantic graphs, somewhat like scheme is written in a parsing tree more or less
18:58:16 <AnMaster> it should be a fairly interesting constructed language, if it hasn't already been done
18:58:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: If you feel like it, I'd add something like the pthreads condition variables. I'm sure you can build those already with the tools you have, but it's nontrivial. (The constructions I can immediately think of need to atomically unlock one mutex and try to lock another one.) Can't think of any other-fingerprint issues right now.
18:58:55 <AnMaster> how does those variables work fizzie?
19:00:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, since erlang mostly use message passing, only global variable is funge-space really
19:00:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, but couldn't P be used to sync set a variable to act as a conditional?
19:00:43 <AnMaster> in combination with C possibly
19:01:07 <fizzie> Yes, but you can't atomically unlock a mutex and then wait on it. Probably solvable by busy-loop-polling instead of waiting, but that's just nasty.
19:01:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, well can you tell me how those condition variables really work then? I can't find any man page for them here, plenty for mutexes and semaphores, but nothing for such variables
19:02:06 <fizzie> Condition variables just give you an object you can wait on, and other threads can then "signal/broadcast" on that object so that the waiting thread (or threads) is started.
19:02:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, and what are the relevant pthread functions for that?
19:02:56 <fizzie> pthread_cond_wait/timedwait for waiting, signal/broadcast for releasing waiting threads (signal == one, broadcast == all), and of course the usual _init for creating one.
19:03:23 <fizzie> The sleep/resume functions seem to have gone?
19:04:02 <fizzie> If you made sleep release all held locks, and to automatically reacquire them when the thread is resumed, you'd basically have given a single condition variable per thread.
19:07:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, well sleep/resume could be added, but I was unsure if it was needed
19:08:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, also just sleep, with optional release, and allow another thread to resume it, would be easy
19:09:29 <fizzie> It's always easy to cause deadlocks with explicit synchronization code, that's pretty much a given.
19:10:42 <fizzie> Some form of waiting (other than simply waiting for a locked mutex to become true -- for one thing, that sort of wait can only be ended by the thread owning the lock, and there's no atomic "release this controlling mutex before waiting" thing) could be helpful, anyway.
19:11:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, maybe also wait with timeout?
19:11:44 <AnMaster> that would be trivial in erlang
19:11:45 <fizzie> Of course just aping the pthreads API is not inherently very esoteric. OTOH, I'd at least almost know how to use it. :p
19:12:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, does pthreads mutexes have timeout?
19:13:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway using G P and C should allow building almost any form of syncing I think?
19:14:06 <AnMaster> compare-and-exchange is quite powerful I read somewhere
19:14:37 <fizzie> Powerful, yes, but a lot of the constructions involve busy-waiting for something to happen in the shared memory.
19:14:47 <AnMaster> (it was some scientific article comparing what sort of lockless atomic operations could be used to simulate other lockless atomic operations)
19:14:55 <AnMaster> (and compare and exchange was the most powerful iirc)
19:15:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, I could provide inc/dec easily too
19:15:30 <AnMaster> that would return the new value due to erlang's api
19:15:43 <AnMaster> of course old one would be easy too
19:15:49 <fizzie> It's still nice to have something that can be used to tell the scheduler "hey, don't bother waking me up until <foo>".
19:16:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes I agree, but it should be original, not just ape pthreads
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19:16:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, erlang got waiting for message of course
19:16:57 <AnMaster> so maybe allow waiting for another thread to send a specific global number?
19:17:45 <fizzie> You could add built-in message queues (with a "wait for a message" thing) that can deliver one funge cell to the named (ID) thread.
19:17:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, like W (n) - block until another thread signals the number n is received
19:18:28 <fizzie> Well, that's maybe stranger, so just use that.
19:19:55 <fizzie> Although I'm not sure if it would be nice to have something that can really do that atomic "unlock this mutex before waiting, reacquire it afterwards" operation.
19:20:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, well reaquire could just block.
19:20:20 <fizzie> That's what it usually does.
19:21:02 <AnMaster> but that allows locking/unlocking
19:21:20 <fizzie> I can see myself using it. :p
19:21:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think possibly mutexes should be renamed too
19:22:14 <fizzie> You can use the "lock" terminology if you like. Or something original and punny inspired from that sort of thing.
19:22:55 <fizzie> LOCK for locking a mutex, PICK for releasing it. :p
19:23:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about sync put then?
19:23:58 <fizzie> Okay, I'd probably keep the G/P pair for operations that are like g/p; it's what FILE and STRN and probably others do.
19:25:37 <fizzie> "Nail" for locking a mutex, "Crowbar" for releasing it. Except that you already use C for CMPXCHG. And maybe it's a bit too "sounds like illegal activities". :p
19:26:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, they shouldn't be called mutexes I think
19:26:20 <fizzie> If you end up picking some unstandard nomenclature, by all means completely avoid the word mutex in the spec.
19:26:27 <AnMaster> but nail with the operations hammer and crowbar would work
19:27:04 <AnMaster> but C is already used too really :/
19:27:37 <AnMaster> Note that an implementation _may_ make g, p and other such instructions
19:27:38 <AnMaster> synchronous as well, but it is not guaranteed. Block access should never be
19:27:43 <fizzie> Although nail/hammer/crowbar has pretty strange real-world implications. "This instruction hammers in a nail; only the same thread can then use crowbar for releasing it. If some other thread wants to hammer the nail in, it must wait for the original thread to crowbar it out."
19:27:48 <AnMaster> that thing indicates that I would do so to begin with
19:28:45 <fizzie> You can try thinking of something lock-unrelated that's simply mutually exclusive in the real world.
19:29:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, also that above works easily too, since there is only one hammer and one crowbar, per nail
19:29:21 <AnMaster> and regulations forbid using the hammer or crowbar from the wrong nail
19:30:27 <fizzie> Maybe you could use "a person" as a mutex, then "Kidnap" would be the operation to acquire that particular person, and then "Ransom" would be needed to get the person available again. :p
19:31:01 <fizzie> I need to awayize now for a while (an hour or so), have fun inventing names.
19:31:43 <fizzie> What's your mutex-creation operation anyway? I don't think I saw one in the draft.
19:31:51 <AnMaster> also ransom would be a different one
19:31:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is no need to create it?
19:32:06 <AnMaster> it is just locking on an arbitrary erlang term
19:32:11 <fizzie> Okay, so you can just use any ID you want? M'k.
19:32:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, in this case any number
19:32:25 <fizzie> Maybe cleaner that way.
19:32:27 <AnMaster> in valid range for the implementation
19:32:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, which is BIGNUM for efunge
19:32:34 <ehird> Plaintext fingerprint.
19:32:47 <ehird> All letters apart from X push a special value for themselves on the stack.
19:32:52 <ehird> HELLOX might print hello world
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19:41:03 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to properly define it though
19:41:18 <AnMaster> ehird, or no one could implement it
19:41:28 <AnMaster> that doesn't imply that I will implement it even if you define it
19:41:30 <ehird> (http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/feedfinder/feedfinder.py Face the horror of the multi-step magical feed finder that takes up to 5 seconds to find most feeds because the web is horribly broken and nobody complies to anything!)
19:41:44 <AnMaster> ehird, btw have you showed MKRY to Mike Riley?
19:41:58 <ehird> he'll go wtf, or ehehehhehhehehhehe, i imagine
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19:42:17 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah it might be worse than me agreeing with you
19:42:30 <ehird> he'll probably implement it
19:42:34 <ehird> not to the spec, ofc
19:43:05 <AnMaster> ehird, also did you look at this ATHR I'm working on?
19:43:15 <AnMaster> the spec is about the opposite of that
19:43:26 <ehird> >_< feedfinder.py can't find wikipedia's rss feed
19:43:31 <ehird> despite being the most comprehensive code i've found
19:43:32 <AnMaster> ehird, it even have "consideration of impacts on other fingerprints" and such
19:43:53 <AnMaster> since it is about 2/3 as feral as MVRS, and TRDS
19:44:26 <AnMaster> ehird, current local copy is 280 lines
19:44:52 <AnMaster> the actual instructions spec cover just about 60 of those
19:46:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, the wait with atomic unlock/lock would be hard since it wouldn't actually be atomic on lower level :/
19:46:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, unable to do that without holding another lock!
19:46:58 * oerjan read that as wait with atomic clock
19:47:36 <oerjan> those are not wildcards either
19:47:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, or, as it may turn out, atomic hasp
19:48:10 <AnMaster> since words such as "mutex" and "lock" are too common
19:49:24 <oerjan> i can read that as wasp if you want
19:51:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, anyway if you are interested here is the current spec: http://rafb.net/p/ivz6AN26.html
19:51:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, it is still under development
19:52:13 <AnMaster> ehird, do you agree it is about as far from Riley's specs as it is possible to get?
19:52:42 <fizzie> Waits are so rare that I'm not sure you'd get any performance problems even if you serialized that somehow. It doesn't even need to be a very global locking-thing probably. I don't know anything about Erlang concurrency (except that it's mostly passing messages around) so I won't comment about implementation-level things, though.
19:53:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, well the module that allows creating locks is called "global"
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19:53:57 <fizzie> Yeeees, but I guess not everyone needs to actually care about the lock? I mean "global" here in the sense of "blocking everyone who wants to initiate a wait operation and/or signal someone".
19:54:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, also the lock would need to be held when unlocking and then suspending, after which you can't unlock it any more since you are suspended
20:01:37 <fizzie> Depends on how the suspend/resume works, I guess. You'd need to keep that lock held until it's clear that the thread can manage to get suspended without any other thread having a chance of acquiring that hasp that was flubbrigated (ATHR-"mutex" "released") and resuming that thread before it actually managed to suspend.
20:02:16 <AnMaster> "You'd need to keep that lock held until it's clear that the thread can manage to get suspended without any other thread having a chance of acquiring that hasp that was flubbrigated" <-- never clear
20:02:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, erlang use a round robin scheduling that may change to another thread at any one time
20:03:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway I could easily wait for the message anyway
20:03:07 <fizzie> Yes, but it's not like your Funge-interpreting thread would actually have to start interpreting things immediately after resuming.
20:03:37 <AnMaster> the receive statement would just return right away
20:03:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, so I guess it if doesn't have to be actually atomic
20:04:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, and what if it is woken up, just to end up waiting on a lock that is already held again?
20:04:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, also, suspending and waiting for a lock to become free is basically what L does
20:04:56 <fizzie> Yes, if you have "wait for messages" that won't actually lose messages (so it's not condition-variable-like waiting) I guess you don't need the controlling mutex there.
20:05:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, indeed, messages don't get lost, however the thread will probably have to clean out it's mail box at some point
20:05:44 <fizzie> That's probably not a problem.
20:06:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, erlang mailboxes may have some size limit, not sure
20:06:11 <AnMaster> that is what the message queues are called
20:06:29 <fizzie> Well, it's not hard for the Funge programmer to organize his/her threads so that it won't end up filling those.
20:06:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, the issue is that the signal would be broadcast to all threads
20:07:04 <ehird> Haha, wow. I sent an email to Aaron Swartz telling him his feed finder thing was broken an hour or so ago, and I get a response right now telling me why (their robots.txt forbids accessing it) and linking to a bug he just filed for it.
20:07:15 <ehird> That's some quick response time.
20:07:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, if I can't do that then it may actually end up loosing messages as you suggested
20:08:15 <fizzie> Oh, right. Well, it's still possible to organize threads so that they check all messages, although it might get to be complicated unless you happen to have a non-blocking "get my mail" thing.
20:08:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes maybe directed signal or something
20:08:41 <AnMaster> but that would need IDs for threads
20:09:25 <ehird> Huh, it wasn't an hour ago.
20:09:33 <ehird> It was *10 minutes ago*.
20:10:05 <AnMaster> ehird, he might have been checking his email once a day and happened to check it just after you mailed
20:10:18 <ehird> True, but that would be some coincidence. :-P
20:10:34 <ehird> AnMaster: He could just have a push-updates email client, you know. I do.
20:10:40 <AnMaster> ehird, well you don't have enough data points to prove it wasn't due to that
20:10:59 <ehird> Still, it's odd sending an email, promptly forgetting about it, then 10 minutes noticing you have new email and seeing there's a reply already.
20:11:04 <AnMaster> ehird, well, even so I don't always actually check the client
20:11:10 <fizzie> In any case, I think the controlling mutex used for pthread condition variables (that is atomically unlocked by pthread_cond_wait and then reacquired when woken up) is there pretty much because of that otherwise complicated race condition where you check whether you need to wait something, start the wait, and then it just happens that the thing-you-were-waiting-for finished and the signal was sent (and lost) before the waiting thread managed to get suspended.
20:11:19 <fizzie> So if your signals don't get lost, that problem isn't there.
20:12:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, the problem is that unless you use W in a thread existing signals will just queue up and waste memory
20:12:33 <AnMaster> how much wasted memory are you prepared to accept in a program that might run without a reboot for a decade?
20:12:47 <AnMaster> (that is a common erlang question, like "how many runaway threads...")
20:13:00 <AnMaster> (since erlang is often used for extremely long running applications like that)
20:13:01 <ehird> Bah. Why isn't there a Python library to canonicalize URLs?
20:13:12 <fizzie> I don't really care if it can be avoided by actually using W from time to time.
20:13:14 <ehird> AnMaster: A befunge program will not run without a reboot for a decade.
20:13:20 <AnMaster> cannonicalize URLs would be funnier
20:13:37 <AnMaster> ehird, sure? code upgrades are easy, self modifying
20:13:52 <ehird> I'll call it canonurl, because I am boring.
20:14:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Can o' N
20:14:08 <oerjan> canonize URLs would also be good
20:15:23 <fizzie> AnMaster: You can "flush" it by doing something like 8y:IW pretty easily, although it's a bit wasteful.
20:15:48 <fizzie> ("8y" just to get a thread-unique number, and maybe you'd need something to avoid conflicts with "real" wait numbers, but anyway...)
20:16:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, except that signal would go to every process
20:16:38 <fungot> ab5tract: let's see your code. and larceny's twobit compiler has an excuse to quit my job, and release my system too.
20:16:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, "Any other queued signals before the matching one are discarded by W."
20:16:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, that makes it slightly more complex ;P
20:17:06 <fizzie> Yes, that's what I was almost expecting.
20:17:15 <fizzie> ehird: Fungot's been running without a reboot for almost a week now. That's pretty close to a decade!
20:17:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, so maybe a true F to flush anyway
20:17:39 <fizzie> Okay, maybe it's only four days. It's closer to 1 week than 0 weeks, anyway!
20:17:51 <fizzie> (And it would be longer unless it had the habit of crashing all the time.)
20:17:55 <ab5tract> AnMaster: have you named your mutex stuff yet?
20:18:04 <fizzie> Okay, now I really must go away.
20:18:16 <AnMaster> ab5tract, no, hasp is a good idea, but what would the operations lock/release/try-lock be called for it?
20:18:59 <ab5tract> unless you are using those for io already...
20:19:38 <AnMaster> L would work so would U, the current I make as much sense as N anyway so that would work fine
20:19:38 <ab5tract> sorta a stretchy metapohor at that point i guess
20:20:07 <ab5tract> what is the overall theme of the language?
20:20:18 <AnMaster> ab5tract, befunge-98, this is a fingerprint for it
20:20:46 <AnMaster> ab5tract, and I think Befunge-98 today is a general-purpose esolang
20:20:56 <AnMaster> considering all the fingerprints for it
20:21:05 <AnMaster> for everything from sockets to files
20:21:07 <ab5tract> i thought maybe you were creating a new language
20:21:27 <ab5tract> yeah, my .sig is in befunge-93
20:21:52 <ab5tract> i haven't learned the -98 but i have the specification
20:21:59 <AnMaster> ab5tract, ah no, I just think t in befunge isn't very useful. Befunge needs a way to take advantage of the multi-core cpus today to be a viable language in the future enterprise world!
20:22:22 <AnMaster> since t is synced so each instruction takes one tick
20:22:52 <ab5tract> so you are replacing it with a mutex?
20:23:16 <AnMaster> ab5tract, and it will be implemented in erlang
20:23:21 <ab5tract> thats what i chant at political rallies
20:23:25 <AnMaster> a message-passing concurrent erlang
20:23:40 <AnMaster> ab5tract, and I didn't get that joke
20:23:44 <ab5tract> i like the trailing h, so sue me
20:23:57 <AnMaster> ab5tract, my spec use the full word
20:23:59 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/OINz1N69.html
20:24:55 <ehird> So... Do you guys think it's reasonable to assume people don't serve different content on http://foo.com/ to http://www.foo.com/?
20:25:13 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but the www one shouldn't resolve
20:25:17 <ab5tract> i like the idea of funge with erlang
20:25:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, it should, but it should redirect to the former.
20:25:28 <AnMaster> ehird, also the non-www seem to redirect to the www one
20:25:32 <ehird> However, I'm not asking for your idealism.
20:25:54 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah I usually redirect www to non-www, so that would put be in B class of no-www iirc?
20:25:54 <ehird> I'm asking people who actually have a grasp on reality and pragmatism whether they think there are any examples of foo.com differing from www.foo.com.
20:26:14 <oklopol> grasp on reality and pragmatism?
20:26:30 <oklopol> www.foo.com and foo.com should actually just redirect to each other
20:26:43 <oklopol> oto.foo.com is where the actual content should be
20:26:54 <oklopol> except all the letters f, j and k should be in oko.foo.com
20:26:55 <AnMaster> ehird, 403 Forbidden to be exact
20:27:00 <oklopol> except for one, that's simply removed.
20:27:05 <AnMaster> ehird, which is pretty wtfish :P
20:27:39 <Asztal> is this excluding the cases where www. doesn't even exist?
20:28:23 <Asztal> no-www.org says 38,000 domains
20:28:42 <Asztal> nor here, I checked google's cache :)
20:29:36 <AnMaster> iirc someone from this channel made it
20:30:53 <Deewiant> ehird: I can't recall any case where both exist but have different content
20:31:34 <Asztal> reminds me of news.com.com
20:31:37 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't count the example I gave?
20:32:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it's common for one or the other to give an error
20:32:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: many sites give 403 when they mean 404
20:33:02 <Deewiant> for security reasons, I suspect
20:33:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wouldn't it be more secure to give 404 for all instead?
20:33:54 <Deewiant> but for instance http://users.tkk.fi/mniemenm/foo is a 403
20:34:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and it is a 404 really?
20:34:17 <Deewiant> and I can assure you my public_html directory doesn't contain a file called foo which you're not allowed to read :-P
20:34:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, maybe it is 403 as in "directory listing forbidden"?
20:34:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why would that make sense
20:34:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it would only make sense for a directory indeed
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20:46:15 <fizzie> There are many sites where the non-www. one is broken.
20:46:57 <fizzie> I think I ran across one today too.
20:46:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, my sites always redirect www one to non-www
20:47:32 <AnMaster> first redirect in lighttpd.conf
20:48:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/ZtV0Tn90.html
20:49:00 <AnMaster> should say no parameters for F
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20:49:55 <fizzie> Actually both the www and non-www ones for the site I ran across now say "We are making big updates on the server Web services will be up and running later today." -- maybe they'll get that fixed too.
20:51:42 <ehird> gee, your draft warning was nice
20:51:51 <ehird> but its only a draft?!
20:53:49 <AnMaster> ehird, also writing specs for funge have taught me one thing: Better try to state things you think everyone would understand
20:54:17 <fizzie> The C instruction should indicate what happened somehow. I think usually (at least CMPXCHG) it just returns the current value that was there in the cell, so you can just use a "C-|" sequence (if you had the "value to compare to" under the params in the stack) to see whether it did the swap or not.
20:55:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: equality comparison...
20:55:27 <fizzie> w might go up or down.
20:55:28 <Deewiant> w's are annoying because you need to handle 3 cases
20:56:01 <fizzie> Of course it could indicate by reflecting too if you're more into that; a boolean yes/no is strictly speaking enough. Although then it's not actually compare-and-*swap*.
20:56:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well yeah, but | or _ checks for "equal to zero/different from zero"
20:56:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, so with - you get "top two are equal"
20:57:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about C reflecting if current cell isn't equal?
20:57:53 <Deewiant> ask fizzie, I don't even know what you're talking about :-P
20:58:04 <fizzie> You should call it "compare and set" then, but other than that it should be fine.
20:58:16 <AnMaster> fizzie: Reflects if replace failed, pushing the existing (unchanged value on stack).
20:58:19 <fizzie> Since it's not "exchange" if you don't get the old value back.
20:58:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, it also pushes the old value
20:59:01 <GregorR> http://www.www.extra-www.org/ is my site.
20:59:01 <fizzie> Well, you can do that too, but then most people will probably just follow it with $ since the reflection is what interests people. Usually. I guess in some cases the old value is interesting too.
20:59:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, you should probably know it
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20:59:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, so that is a bad idea then?
21:00:04 <fizzie> I don't have a real opinion; it's just a matter of a couple of characters, anyway. As long as it indicates at least somehow whether it failed or not.
21:00:12 <ehird> GregorR: That arson news site, why does it actually use it?
21:00:21 <ehird> I can't think why you'd be crazy enough to, you know, actually do it.
21:00:23 <fizzie> Uppercased instructions seem to reflect a whole lot, though.
21:00:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, also what sould it push if it fails then?
21:00:50 <fizzie> If it's called "exchange", it should probably in all cases push the value that was there, even if it did not actually set it to whatever you wanted.
21:01:06 <Deewiant> fizzie: yes, lowercased instructions just invoke undefined behaviour ;-)
21:01:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, true, and so does Riley's upper case ones too
21:02:21 <fizzie> Personally I'd probably just make it either always push the old value and not reflect (so that people will do -| after it) or simply reflect without pushing the old value (but call it compare-and-set, then, it should be just as powerful, though maybe not quite as convenient -- can't think of use cases right now).
21:02:48 <fizzie> Convenience has never been very high on funge-people's priorities, though.
21:03:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, I go for the exchange one
21:03:56 <AnMaster> since I think reflect is more convenient ;P
21:07:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Do you know, pikhq?.
21:07:33 <AnMaster> has anyone ever made a programming language based on text formatting? Well apart from ColourForth but that doesn't really count since it is just colours, not full formatting, like text size
21:07:40 <AnMaster> it should probably use odf format
21:08:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no as in the formatting affected what the code meant
21:08:52 <AnMaster> somewhat like colours do in ColorForth
21:09:08 <AnMaster> ehird, "Well apart from ColourForth but that doesn't really count since it is just colours, not full formatting, like text size"
21:09:13 <ehird> Yes. You're wrong. :)
21:09:24 <ehird> ColourForth can be presented in non-colour version.
21:09:35 <ehird> e.g. Chuck wrote a paper about it using italics/underline/bold.
21:09:38 <ehird> So you could do text size too.
21:11:58 <fizzie> Another style thing: in the "ATHR vs. REFC" the wording, while technically speaking correct, maybe a bit needlessly complicated. The REFC reference numbers don't really matter, so it probably doesn't matter if they're given out first-come-first-served or something stranger, you could just say they're global and need to work without explicit synchronization of requests.
21:12:09 <fizzie> Although it could be just me nitpicking here.
21:14:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, should I attribute you with your real name or your nick in "thanks to"?
21:14:57 <AnMaster> same question goes to Deewiant
21:15:36 <Deewiant> previously you've used my name, I guess; I typically use both
21:15:38 <fizzie> I'm never good in deciding that. Maybe real name, so prospective employers will know I do all kinds of sensible and profitable things with my time.
21:15:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I used your name after asking you iirc
21:15:54 <fizzie> Already got one summer job because of my Befunge skills.
21:16:18 <fizzie> AnMaster: Perl-writing. :p
21:16:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh well I can see the logic in that yeah
21:16:50 <fizzie> Okay, so I'm not entirely sure the Befunge thing had anything to do with it, but the subject came up in the interview and the people seemed at least curious about it, if not outright interested.
21:17:25 <fizzie> (I had "esoteric programming languages" listed as a hobby in my CV since the template had a section titled like that.)
21:18:03 <fizzie> (The company was Nokia; you may have heard of it.)
21:18:27 <fizzie> (It's that mobile phone maker everyone thinks is Japanese. :p)
21:20:02 <ehird> What's a mobile phone?
21:20:29 <fizzie> Okay, I guess most people know that, but it's an old joke that Finland's most successful company has a faux-Japanese-sounding name.)
21:20:46 <ehird> AnMaster: ... uh, what's google?
21:21:00 <ehird> sorry i must look like an idiot
21:21:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, Don't they make wheels too iirc?
21:21:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, also how comes you didn't get that summer job?
21:21:52 <oerjan> ehird: no no, just an amnesiac
21:22:03 <fizzie> AnMaster: Huh? I did get it.
21:22:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, sorry, read it as "almost"
21:22:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: that's Nokian. _entirely_ different.
21:23:49 <fizzie> The tires and boots were part of the same Nokia company back then in the 1960s.
21:23:51 -!- Corun_ has joined.
21:24:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, but they split up after?
21:24:16 <fizzie> You know, for rainy days.
21:24:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah, but I use a Swedish brand
21:25:51 * oerjan swats AnMaster ----###
21:25:52 <fizzie> Apparently the tire-manufacturing part was split from the telecommunications part in 1988.
21:26:25 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helly_Hansen
21:26:44 <oerjan> mind you i wasn't sure myself until i googled
21:26:46 <fizzie> I think I have something of theirs to wear on the sailboat; good for that sort of thing.
21:27:01 * AnMaster swats oerjan for swatting then
21:28:02 <fizzie> HH. And not boots; some sort of jacket.
21:28:12 <fizzie> I don't think Nokia has done rubber boots for ages now.
21:28:24 <fizzie> Although I'm not really sure.
21:28:41 <fizzie> I guess they still do.
21:29:12 <AnMaster> no idea what the name is for that in English
21:29:43 <fizzie> Life-vest if you mean the safety gear.
21:30:48 <AnMaster> except it is less than that and more like light weight, meant for sailing
21:30:59 <AnMaster> which is actually called a "seglarväst"
21:31:36 <fizzie> Ah, then it's more like fi:kelluntaliivi (floatation vest), distinct from fi:pelastusliivi (rescue vest) which is the more heavy-duty thing.
21:31:56 <fizzie> I'm not sure how the official definitions go.
21:32:03 <AnMaster> the "flytväst" is the heavy duty ones
21:32:14 <AnMaster> but the thing I was thinking about was the lightweight ones
21:32:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, I got one of those lightweight ones somewhere
21:32:40 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:32:45 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
21:33:40 <fizzie> The CE authorization thing defines the life-vest one to be something that turns you on your back and keeps the head above the water even if you're completely unconscious, while the lightweight one just helps you float if you're still operational and know how to swim.
21:36:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I know how to swim well, during the summer I often swim 2 km every other day for exercise
21:37:09 <fizzie> The spelling, I mean. I think the practice sounds somewhat unhealthy.
21:37:25 <fizzie> Can't be good for you.
21:38:38 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:38:58 <AnMaster> well. I think it is better for me than being indoors all the time
21:39:13 <AnMaster> had health problems from that before, so I decided to avoid that
21:41:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, Deewiant : http://rafb.net/p/2zsIOB88.html
21:41:57 -!- Corun_ has changed nick to Corun.
21:43:25 <oerjan> too much draft. fresh air, remember?
21:44:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh btw I pondered adding a section near the end called "ATHR and the effects on modern society" with the text "Not a lot."
21:45:18 <fizzie> I like the systematic "parameters, return value, reflection info" format, it's very fastidious.
21:45:38 <fizzie> 1. (2) fastidious -- (giving careful attention to detail; hard to please; excessively concerned with cleanliness; "a fastidious and incisive intellect"; "fastidious about personal cleanliness")
21:46:01 <fizzie> Not "excessively concerned with cleanliness"; if you are, I don't know about it.
21:46:03 <AnMaster> also I missed it for the two last instructions
21:46:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, also what about "incisive"?
21:46:32 * oerjan fits all three, he thinks
21:46:43 <oerjan> well at one time or another
21:46:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: That's pretty much the same thing as "keen".
21:47:01 <AnMaster> "a fastidious and incisive intellect"
21:48:04 <ehird> AnMaster: You're so humble.
21:48:22 <fizzie> Although it does have a secondary meaning of "suitable for cutting"; incision is, after all, a cut.
21:48:31 <ehird> AnMaster: So was mine.
21:48:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought it was sarcasm?
21:49:11 <ehird> No, it was sarcasm, which was a joke.
21:49:12 <AnMaster> also is it "signaled" or "signalled"?
21:49:19 <AnMaster> different spelling programs want different there
21:49:44 <fizzie> "signaled" is the US spelling, I think.
21:50:02 <AnMaster> yeah I use UK spelling when possible
21:50:23 <fizzie> UK spelling tends to be the one with more letters. :p
21:50:35 <fizzie> (I'm sure there are exceptions, though.)
21:52:13 <fizzie> And at least center/centre has the same length. But it works for aluminum/aluminium and all kinds of .*or/.*our things.
21:52:46 <fizzie> Okay, those have the same length.
21:53:39 <Deewiant> there are three standards: ise/yse, ize/yze, ize/yse
21:54:25 <fizzie> Wasn't aluminum/aluminium on that "lamest wikipedia edit wars" page? At least I remember looking at the article talk page one day and marvelling (again also US marveling) at the amount of talk about the name.
21:55:10 <fizzie> Seems they moved it to a separate page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aluminium/Spelling
21:55:43 <fizzie> That's a 116-kilobyte page. Of course some HTML overhead, but still.
21:56:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, you really want en-us and en-uk wikipedias
21:57:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do they differ though?
21:58:18 <Deewiant> "UK of GB and Northern Ireland"
21:59:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fizzie: so any comments on this version: http://rafb.net/p/tUcpyC58.html
21:59:52 <AnMaster> clear up the [TODO: ...] comment
22:00:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and would this be something you would ever consider implementing?
22:00:50 <Deewiant> Maybe. If not: because it'd require too many changes all over the place
22:01:02 <Deewiant> concurrency in imperative languages is a bit of a pain
22:01:08 <fizzie> Mediawiki is complicated; I had to use http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aluminium/Spelling&action=raw to fetch the raw page source (265040 bytes) because just adding ?action=raw to the end of the URL gave me a "Raw pages must be accessed through the primary script entry point." error.
22:01:21 <fizzie> I don't think I have any comments left, but I'll take a peek.
22:02:02 <Deewiant> I'd rather go the async-MVRS route for concurrency as I'm still not sure whether ATHR is actually useful at all.
22:02:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, as for that error, how comes they detected the ?action bit at all
22:02:41 <AnMaster> if they did they could just have served that
22:02:59 <fizzie> Deewiant: I'd probably have used ATHR if I were writing fungot now, but I don't think I'd have gone the MVRS route. Although I guess I could have.
22:02:59 <fungot> fizzie: in that sentence
22:03:10 <ehird> Guys. #notes-to-ehird. In which I am going to let you make my computer say things
22:03:12 <ehird> With amazing text to speech technology
22:03:14 <ehird> It will be amazing. Probably
22:03:55 <fizzie> I ran all my IRC though the "amazing" OS 7.5.5 text-to-speech facility once for some.. hmm, maybe dozen hours.
22:04:02 <fizzie> Had to turn it off after that.
22:04:26 <fizzie> Maybe it wasn't 7.5.5; really don't remember.
22:05:10 <fizzie> I think it was 7.5.5; isn't that the latest version Apple is giving out? At least at some point there was 7.5.3 plus the 7.5.5 update available for downloading.
22:05:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think OS 8 had it at least
22:06:00 <AnMaster> ab5tract, any comments on http://rafb.net/p/tUcpyC58.html ?
22:06:12 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> concurrency in imperative languages is a bit of a pain <-- well, not my problem
22:06:26 <ab5tract> it was there before the beveled progress bars
22:06:29 <fizzie> I liked the "the light that you see at the end of the tunnel is the headlights of a fast approaching train" test phrase the 'bad news' voice spoke. :p
22:06:51 <fizzie> Or something like that, anyway.
22:07:03 <ab5tract> AnMaster: it looks pretty good, i'm going to take a better look in a sec
22:07:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, most of those voices were horrible
22:07:14 <AnMaster> ab5tract, in a sec I may be asleep
22:07:28 <ab5tract> then i'll have to comment another time :)
22:07:38 <AnMaster> ab5tract, I do read scrollback
22:07:46 <ab5tract> im new to the channel but im already a big fan
22:07:54 <ab5tract> glad to see befunge gets so much love
22:08:14 <ab5tract> anyone know how finished the befunge implementation on parrot is?
22:08:21 <fizzie> I did Befunge before I ran across Brainfuck; it holds a special place in my heart.
22:08:23 <AnMaster> ab5tract, it is actually one of the more easy-to-use languages
22:08:55 <ab5tract> plus its just such a damn cool concept
22:09:04 <AnMaster> ab5tract, what about trefunge then?
22:09:39 <ab5tract> the idea of topogrphical programming is awesome
22:09:43 <AnMaster> 6-funge would be 6-dimensional
22:09:56 <ab5tract> yeah i've heard about them but i havent tried them
22:10:09 <ab5tract> i haven't been able to get cfunge to compile on this os x box
22:10:09 <AnMaster> ah so is it equal to a donut or a coffee cup?
22:10:27 <fizzie> I compiled cfunge on OS X some time ago.
22:10:30 <AnMaster> linking error is fixed in current bzr
22:10:38 <AnMaster> don't remember if it is in last release
22:10:46 <AnMaster> ab5tract, anyway I suspect fizzie is better at helping there
22:11:25 <AnMaster> #SET_TARGET_PROPERTIES(cfunge PROPERTIES
22:11:25 <AnMaster> #LINK_FLAGS "-Wl,-O1,--as-needed,--warn-common"
22:11:35 <AnMaster> except there won't be # in front
22:11:47 <AnMaster> and what current bzr head looks like
22:12:03 <AnMaster> ab5tract, that would be in CMakeLists.txt
22:12:20 <AnMaster> also I got it to compile myself recently when I had access to a mac for a bit
22:12:46 <AnMaster> ab5tract, normally I just work on Linux and FreeBSD
22:13:46 <fizzie> Actually my OS X laptop is not online right now and I can't be bothered to start it up to test things; but the issues were pretty simple ones.
22:15:06 <ab5tract> off to work folks, i will ttyl
22:15:35 <fizzie> Oh, incidentally... does the 's' instruction also then skip the character it wrote, like ' skips the character it read?
22:16:02 <fizzie> I guess it has to, since the spec says it's "mirror image of the ' instruction".
22:16:50 <fizzie> I just thought it'd be more useful as a "execute from stack" instruction and not a "stick a character right here" one, although obviously you can then just route the code flow through it
22:17:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, I suggest RC/Funge EXEC then
22:18:03 <fizzie> I really haven't had use for execute-from-stack yet, just wondering.
22:18:05 -!- ab5tract has quit.
22:18:24 <fizzie> Actually I don't thing fungot does any self-modification whatsoever, which is pretty bad style in a Funge program I guess.
22:18:24 <fungot> fizzie: depends on how much faster but any reasonable amount wouldn't help much
22:18:51 <fizzie> Of course it makes it easier to generate those messy graphs. :p
22:20:19 <fizzie> Well, I think the graph looked nice. I still want to give it to someone asking for office supplies or something and say "here's our process for doing that".
22:20:32 <fizzie> It looks very enterprisey.
22:21:47 <ehird> fizzie: make it compile the funge in the brackets to Java
22:24:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, is it possible to print it out?
22:28:38 <fizzie> You can print it scaled to fit on an A4 paper on a 600dpi laser printer so that you can _almost_ make out the labels; even read quite a large part of them if you squint real hard.
22:28:48 <fizzie> On an A3-sized paper it should be reasonably legible.
22:29:09 <fizzie> Maybe on A4 too with enough tweaking of Graphviz font parameters. There's quite a lot of empty space in them bubbles.
22:31:57 <ehird> how is http://www.websiteoptimization.com/about/ so faaaaaast
22:34:49 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving").
22:37:00 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando").
22:37:47 <fizzie> Re MVRS, I assume the "Big-Bang" instruction won't create any IPs in it? Since it's still empty and everything. So if MVRS's G/J are not well defined when ATHR is in use, a ATHR/MVRS combination will be pretty hard to use. (Not that interpreting current G/J is much more than guesswork right now.)
22:46:43 <ehird> someone invent a pgp-based method to roll an N-sided dice between two people over irc :3
22:47:04 <ehird> i.e. you can just run it and paste the resulting string to roll
22:47:15 <ehird> and the other person can verify the number you say was made properly randomly
22:48:57 <ehird> you could just write a spec i guess. i can write code. but if you do not do it i will rip your eyeballs out
22:49:35 <oerjan> ehird is so good at motivation
22:50:01 <fizzie> Hmm. In principle you don't really need much for that: just require some suitable amount of input data from both participants, then compute a suitable SHA-512 hash (or some such) of the concatenation and take the result modulo N. Neither participant can then force the result to be what they want, as long as (key point) they both commit to their strings in advance before seeing the other one.
22:50:29 <fizzie> And you can do the commit-to-one-string by requiring both participants to publish the hash of their piece of input in advance.
22:50:47 <ehird> fizzie: suitable input data = /dev/random?
22:51:21 <ehird> ideally it'd be something like "pgproll 10", paste the output (which I guess would be "rolled number (magic key thing)")
22:51:21 <fizzie> It's probably as good as you can get. Or "openssl rand".
22:51:42 <ehird> alice rolling, bob verifying:
22:51:58 <ehird> fizzie: does yours support the model i'm thinking of?
22:52:09 <ehird> i'm thinking of 2 people playing a dice-based game over irc
22:52:15 <ehird> and person A being the dice roller
22:52:31 <oerjan> both need to do some part of the rolling to prevent cheating
22:52:36 <ehird> but they want person B to be able to verify that the dice rolls aren't being forged
22:52:45 <fizzie> Maybe not directly; there's the need for both participants to publish the input hashes first, and then their input strings. After that both participants can verify the result, which will be random.
22:52:51 <ehird> oerjan: yes... that's the problem :-P
22:53:17 <ehird> fizzie: how does that verify that you didn't just modify the program to pick the number you tell it to?
22:54:01 <oerjan> ehird: the point with both choosing part of the number is that then neither than cheat successfully without the cooperation of the other
22:54:18 <fizzie> Well, anyone can just compute the hash of those two concatenated inputs and check what the result of the roll is.
22:54:32 <fizzie> Obviously nothing's preventing you from lying and saying "I got a natural 20".
22:54:33 <ehird> you could just do that by:
22:54:49 <ehird> add them together, there's your roll
22:54:55 <fizzie> No, then person B can decide.
22:55:04 <fizzie> You need both A and B to commit on their number before revealing it.
22:55:17 <fizzie> Therefore they need to publish the hashes of their selections first.
22:55:18 <ehird> but the commit has to happen simultaneously too, to avoid cheating
22:55:29 <ehird> (its not hard to bruteforce 6 possibilities)
22:55:43 <ehird> so you might as well just figure out a way to do that, then just apply it to the number 0-5
22:55:47 <fizzie> But it's hard to bruteforce what the input will be, if it's something like a kilobyte.
22:56:24 <ehird> Still...Currently this requires _five irc messages_
22:56:37 <ehird> (a checks both numbers, sums them)
22:56:45 <ehird> that's...hideously unwieldy
22:56:48 <fizzie> Well, A doesn't really need to announce the number.
22:56:56 <fizzie> Both participants know it already after four messages.
22:57:03 <fizzie> (But that's still four messages.)
22:57:39 <oerjan> oh actually <b> doesn't need to reveal the hash. he can do the number first
22:57:42 <ehird> Yes, but the point of having one person doing a dice roll is that they do all the work :-P
22:58:03 <ehird> 1. still quite unwieldy
22:58:06 <ehird> 2. harder to check for b
22:58:16 <ehird> (he has to subtract number from sum, then check it matches hash, etc)
22:58:30 <ehird> this could be automated with a webservice
22:58:43 <ehird> you'd need pgp in your browser
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22:59:06 <fizzie> You could just use a trusted third party to do all the work. That's what normal people would do. :p
22:59:22 <fizzie> "There's a dice-rolling bot by that one unrelated guy, let's just use that."
23:00:56 <fizzie> I'm not sure you'll get to less than those three messages there with only the two people who don't trust each other.
23:01:46 <fizzie> With a bit of scripting three would not be too bad.
23:02:00 <ehird> fizzie: There is no such thing as a trusted third party.
23:02:19 <ehird> 'trusted third party' is exactly the problem with security today.
23:03:12 <fizzie> It's a "/roll 20" command which will do <a> I want to roll a d20, my hash is <...>; then a "/answer" command from b which will do "<b> okay, my [1, 20] random number is <x>"; and finally a "/foo" command for a which will do "<a> the dice roll result was <x>".
23:03:31 <fizzie> And b's script will add a "[verified]" message after that last line if it is okay.
23:03:45 <fizzie> And I couldn't think of reasonable command names, sorry. :p
23:04:16 <oerjan> <x> needs to include salt, doesn't it
23:04:39 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, but the point is if you can modify clients its a solved problem
23:04:54 <ehird> fizzie: The challenge is making it work over basic protocols we already have.
23:05:13 <ehird> i think i found a program to do it
23:05:46 <fizzie> Okay, you can't just hash A's number. But it's easy to hash that and a bit of randomness, and include the randomness in the last message.
23:06:10 <ehird> You don't have to, just check A's first message
23:06:29 <fizzie> No, I mean, A can't hash just the number: there's too few alternatives.
23:07:10 <ehird> I thought http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/secroll.py did this, but it appears to be totally broken.
23:07:13 <ehird> Let me write a program that works.
23:07:18 <ehird> fizzie: WE CAN TEST IT TOGETHER
23:07:33 <fizzie> No, we can't: I'm going to sleep in 5 minutes.
23:08:04 <ehird> It's not going to take me 5 minutes to write it. :-P
23:09:29 <fizzie> It's not going to take me 5 minutes to get to sleep, either.
23:09:55 <fizzie> There's a hairy man going to come here tomorrow at 08 (in 7 hours) to install a faucet, I need to be mentally prepared for it.
23:10:01 <fizzie> (Okay, the hairiness is still speculation.)
23:12:36 <ehird> I think 10 bits of randomness is reasonable
23:13:45 <fizzie> But that's just n*1024 numbers to hash before finding out what A's number was, for a n-sided dice.
23:14:11 <ehird> fizzie: Well, how many would you suggest? 1000? :P
23:14:56 <ehird> It has to be a small amount, since it will be revealed over irc.
23:18:36 <fizzie> The problem there is that you can just precompute all the possible hash values; so it should be sufficiently large that 256*2^n bits is too much to store.
23:19:20 <ehird> fizzie: Um, 10^25 megabytes is too much to store.
23:19:30 <ehird> Wait, even more than that.
23:19:41 <ehird> 3.86856262 * 10^25, even, sez google.
23:19:59 <fizzie> Yes, I mean, 1000 is more than enough. But 10 is not.
23:20:26 <fizzie> I just meant that it's not only the speed-to-bruteforce (after all, _that_ just needs to be a minute or so) since it can be precomputed.
23:20:45 <fizzie> Maybe 50 bits would suffice; that's 10 base64-encoded characters, not a long string. Or 60, two more characters doesn't make a difference.
23:21:32 <ehird> I was talking about 100, btw.
23:21:42 <fizzie> Oh. Well, didn't bother to check.
23:22:27 <fizzie> 50 bits of randomness already means 64k terabytes of hashes even for a two-sided "die".
23:22:55 <fizzie> Bye. Have fun rolling dice.
23:33:14 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
23:39:34 <ehird> AnMaster: openssl question
23:39:45 <ehird> how would you use "openssl rand" to generate a random number from 0 to N?
23:39:53 <AnMaster> I'm not great expert but I'll try
23:39:56 <ehird> the minimum you can get is one byte, i.e. 0-255
23:40:05 <ehird> and just moduloing that or something seems...stupid
23:40:32 <AnMaster> it seems indeed to generate random bytes
23:40:39 <AnMaster> ehird, so I got no idea if it is possible
23:41:24 <AnMaster> using modulo should work if you make sure that (255 * number of bytes) % the max number you want == 0
23:41:29 <AnMaster> then it should still be uniform
23:41:36 <ehird> Er, number of bytes = 1.
23:42:25 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Re MVRS, I assume the "Big-Bang" instruction won't create any IPs in it? Since it's still empty and everything. So if MVRS's G/J are not well defined when ATHR is in use, a ATHR/MVRS combination will be pretty hard to use. (Not that interpreting current G/J is much more than guesswork right now.)
23:56:21 <ehird> AnMaster: yay, roll.py is almost done
00:05:06 <ehird> Who wants to test my magical dice roller?
00:11:39 <ehird> Asztal: GregorR oklopol
00:11:50 <ehird> pikhq. Sgeo. your mom.
00:12:24 <GregorR> ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird
00:12:44 <ehird> GregorR: WILL YOU TEST MY IMMUNE-TO-CHEATING IRC-BASED DICE SYSTEM <3
00:13:05 <ehird> it's just copy&pasting ;_;
00:13:10 <GregorR> Because you lamepinged me :P
00:13:22 <ehird> GregorR: Because nobody is onlinnnnnnnnnnnnne
00:13:30 <Jiminy_Cricket> I'll test it, ehird, as long as it doesn't require too much thought.
00:13:50 <ehird> Jiminy_Cricket: If you're on a UNIX-like system with Python, then the rest is just copy&paste from the output of a script
00:14:15 * GregorR stares at his beautiful running Python interpreter.
00:14:33 <ehird> Jiminy_Cricket: Oh. I could make it use the equiv. to /dev/random, but, tomorrow.
00:14:42 <ehird> OKAY SO HERE'S WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO
00:15:02 <ehird> I'll give you an initial line, which will be 'roll <sides> <sha1 hash>'
00:15:09 <ehird> Run 'python roll.py <sides>' and paste my line in.
00:15:17 <ehird> You'll get another line back. Paste it to the channel.
00:15:24 <ehird> FInally, I'll paste the result line.
00:15:33 <ehird> Paste that into the script, if it prints OK, no cheating has happened!
00:15:50 <ehird> For being my side, add an additional argument of 'alice', and do the same paste/copy dance.
00:15:56 <ehird> This could be automated in a client.
00:16:03 <ehird> GregorR: AND HERE IS THE SCRIPT
00:16:19 <ehird> GregorR: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1228858
00:16:30 <ehird> roll 100 e1d33f5e2ac718ae227cf58ace285a9dfc7c49f0
00:17:39 <GregorR> Hrm, wait, I think I borkled it a bit.
00:17:53 <ehird> GregorR: Did you run it with the second argument being 100?
00:18:00 <GregorR> Therein lies the problem :P
00:18:08 <ehird> you rolled the empty string?
00:18:22 <ehird> final roll 51 (YQjgBLnVeM3sGFNfrdTOEQV622w3S7K6tnEIEeNVLQVPw7HHBrQM3jISxYhY42oLIeU=)
00:18:55 <ehird> If that prints 'OK', then the final rolled number is 51.
00:19:20 <ehird> GregorR: Now let's do that fast, to simulate a real-world situation.
00:19:24 <ehird> roll 100 cf620c82c9c9941ffee2e101b6383a2916515c5e
00:19:47 <GregorR> I suck at copy/pasting aparently.
00:19:48 <ehird> final roll 18 (ATjJBwI1F4Mp9KM2Kq3qLpoTwCG4sM7huK20GBLQeNWKEXUXEGLj6EQ9Ko31htPtoQ8=)
00:20:14 <ehird> Here's, basically, how it works:
00:20:23 <ehird> It gets 50 bytes of random data from /dev/random.
00:20:30 <ehird> It seeds a prng with them.
00:20:38 <ehird> It generates a random number from 0 to (sides/2).
00:20:46 <ehird> It then gives you the hash of the seed.
00:20:57 <ehird> Then, the other side does the same but prints out the number in plaintext.
00:21:16 <ehird> Then, when 'alice' gets the number, it adds them together, and prints out the result, along with the base64-encoded text of the 50 random bytes.
00:21:27 <ehird> When 'bob' puts in that,
00:21:37 <ehird> it verifies that the base64 version hashes the same as the original hash
00:21:49 <ehird> then it seeds the prng with the bytes
00:21:56 <ehird> and generates a random number, etc
00:22:03 <ehird> and checks that it's equal to (final_result - bobs_number)
00:22:09 <ehird> (because, with the same seed, it should be the same, of course)
00:22:20 <ehird> this assures that the original number was not tampered with after seeing yours
00:22:35 <ehird> and since both halves are involved in the creation of the final number,
00:22:41 <ehird> one single party can't cheat to get a number to their advantage
00:22:46 <ehird> (unless they can predict another system's /dev/random... :P)
00:23:06 <ehird> GregorR: Neato / not neato
00:23:39 <ehird> Jiminy_Cricket: :o
00:23:57 <ehird> Anyway, I'd say the above ain't bad for a 48 lines script
00:24:45 <ehird> Jiminy_Cricket: Like you wouldn't cheat if, online, you were tasked with rolling the die and there was a certain number that would make you win :-P
00:24:54 <ehird> Although a game with something like that would be hideously imbalanced.
00:25:06 <ehird> Anyway, this'd be improved with a client plugin that does it.
00:25:24 <ehird> So you could do /roll myotherperson 100 and the two clients would go through the motions.
00:25:35 <Jiminy_Cricket> I don't generally play games in the first place that involve dice rolling
00:25:48 <ehird> Jiminy_Cricket: But what about your secret government intercepting mission plot?!
00:25:51 <ehird> HOW WILL YOU DO THAT
00:26:16 <ehird> That is some lame die
00:30:22 <ehird> GregorR: You be alice this time?
00:30:31 <GregorR> No, the exploit is on the bob side X-P
00:30:39 <GregorR> (If I understand how this works)
00:30:43 <ehird> roll 100 33248a78e79acc6449bc3a33f8cfe091fca71de1
00:31:01 <GregorR> I would love for this roll to be below 50, so I'm gonna go ahead and say
00:31:12 <ehird> final roll 22 (bKog8Sj6d+Drz08+aVajVZaRPgFCWL4HtggJZPAFSn1hkdUL2bPB6IMnOj67H4bRhUQ=)
00:31:14 <ehird> Well, yeah, that works.
00:31:18 <ehird> But you can't actually precisely do anything.
00:31:28 <GregorR> No, but usually it's the range you care about.
00:31:32 <ehird> GregorR: it's easy to fix
00:31:36 <ehird> instead of two /2 numbers added
00:31:42 <ehird> have two full numbers, added together, modulo.
00:32:09 <ehird> That means the final answer has to have another field
00:32:20 <ehird> it means it's unworkable, I think
00:32:39 <ehird> GregorR: How do you get a from ((a + b) % x) if you know b and x??
00:32:56 <ehird> is it even possible :|
00:33:01 <ehird> or am i having a brainfart
00:34:30 <GregorR> I know multiplication is not generally reversible, but addition should be.
00:34:51 <GregorR> (y-b)%x where y was your result?
00:37:51 <ehird> GregorR: oh, right
00:37:53 <ehird> i'll do it tomorrow
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03:07:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | after I... squash the countless bugs..
03:13:40 <GregorR> I couldn't find the one voted for so I wore my porkpie.
03:24:50 <GregorR> Then you should fly in on Saturday :P
03:32:54 <Asztal> interesting... the newest noscript gives me "Clickjacking" warnings on choosemyhat.com if I click outside the table... o_O
03:33:07 <Asztal> seemingly randomly, too
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03:36:51 <fungot> immibis: is there a way to
03:36:54 <fungot> immibis: when i flunk out of life, the universe and everything
03:37:08 <immibis> fungot you're not part of life the universe and everythingh
03:37:08 <fungot> immibis: and there's the configuration edition thingie, at least
03:37:23 <immibis> fungot yeah that config edition is really stupid
03:37:24 <fungot> immibis: now, we have a /pub for images and such
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04:24:18 <ab5tract> fungot bring da mthfckn ruckus
04:24:18 <fungot> ab5tract: ( how did the day turn out, points of contention here:
04:24:33 <fungot> ab5tract: oy vei. don't have that
04:24:48 <ab5tract> seems you got plenty to me friend.
04:45:38 <ab5tract> honored to take part, if you end up going with hasp
05:03:19 <ab5tract> i like the reflecting compare, but i also like the 'C|-' syntax. would it be totally unreasonable to ask for both?
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06:12:09 <fungot> elizabot: Hi. elizabot: Hi.
06:12:12 <fungot> Elizabot: or, more properly, in python
06:12:12 <Elizabot> fungot: What does that suggest to you ?
06:12:13 <fungot> Elizabot: or set-car! to a non-char type analysis ( so you always get a car later)
06:12:13 <Elizabot> fungot: Can you think of a specific example ?
06:12:14 <fungot> Elizabot: part of your colon?
06:12:14 <Elizabot> fungot: Why are you concerned over my colon ?
06:12:14 <fungot> Elizabot: i'm still on the todo list, but it was
06:12:15 <Elizabot> fungot: Is it because you are still on the todo list that you came to me ?
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06:20:19 <fizzie> ehird: You get a%x from (a+b)%x if you know b and x; doesn't matter, of course, if you limit yourself to numbers in [0, x-1]. And if you noticed, I did use numbers [0, 19] for d20 precisely for that reason.
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06:46:14 <ab5tract> fungot: insane in the membrane
06:47:47 <fizzie> Your first comment crasheded it. I _really_ need to debug that bug.
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06:50:01 <ab5tract> fizzie: is it allergic to cypress hill?
06:50:10 <ab5tract> fungot: insane in the membrane
06:50:10 <fungot> ab5tract: great that you found a new spot?
06:50:39 <ab5tract> i feel that way too. #esoteric is my ideal place to be fungot, thank you for noticing
06:50:40 <fungot> ab5tract: i always start with a
06:51:17 <fizzie> That one, yes. Since it's in the babble-generation code, it probably doesn't depend on the input; it just happens pretty rarely.
06:51:27 <ab5tract> fizzie: how would you imagine the ideal funge ide
06:51:49 <ab5tract> do you think it would be possible to write a funge ide in funge
06:52:13 <ab5tract> assuming AnMaster comes through with the erlang threads
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06:52:17 <fizzie> Not without some GUI toolkit binding fingerprint, no. Although there's WIND, but that's windows-only and so very primitive.
06:52:45 <ab5tract> are there any gooey kits for erlang?
06:53:07 <fizzie> Don't know about Erlang; I'm sure there are, most languages seem to have bindings.
06:53:15 <ab5tract> but theoretically it would be possible
06:53:38 <fizzie> Okay, maybe a text-based funge IDE, with TERM... but I think a GUI thing would have more opportunities for displaying things.
06:53:43 <ab5tract> i have a pretty good idea of how i would want to use it
06:54:38 <ab5tract> it needs to be able to render the broader map
06:55:37 <ab5tract> and then various levels of zoom and with a heirarchical fingerprint/method list
06:55:56 <ab5tract> that way we could really start talking advantage of this 32-bit address space
06:56:09 <ab5tract> which we might as well bump up to 64 for fun :)
06:56:40 <ab5tract> and the 3-d mode for trefunge...
06:56:50 <fizzie> Doesn't cfunge already do that? At least it does 64-bit cells, it only stands to reason the cell addresses are 64-bit too.
06:57:06 <ab5tract> they have to be equal to fit spec
06:58:05 <fizzie> Well, the spec says "A Funge-98 interpreter, *ideally*, has an addressing range equal to that of its cell size." [emphasis mine] so maybe it's not a must.
06:58:24 <fizzie> Still, given how AnMaster is, I'd be surprised if it didn't.
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07:40:29 <pikhq> GregorR: My roommates think that you look like a princess in your Egyptian Kofia.
07:40:33 <pikhq> Thought you should know.
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08:14:51 <bsmntbombdood> how do you force interpretation of a language to be parallel?
08:15:31 <oerjan> did i or did i not mention that concurrency was one of my weak points yesterday?
08:17:10 <oerjan> although it surely depends on what you mean by 'force', since any parallel computation can be simulated on a sequential computer, just slower
08:18:08 <bsmntbombdood> can you force interpretation of a program with n instructions to take exp(n) times longer than a reasonable language?
08:19:42 <oerjan> i'm not sure parallel execution is enough to speed n instructions up by exp(n).
08:19:53 <oerjan> looks more like an NP oracle thing
08:21:31 <oerjan> er... so the program is making a choice in each instruction, and the threads are used to do all options for all choices simultaneously
08:22:29 <oerjan> hm that may be a bit more than NP, but probably not more than PSPACE
08:23:00 <bsmntbombdood> the same way you convert a nondeterministic fsm to deterministic fsm
08:23:23 <oerjan> however in any case it is still an unsolved mathematical problem whether any of those are actually intrinsically slower
08:25:19 <oerjan> oh and maybe if the parallel threads can communicate you can get something harder
08:25:33 <oerjan> you want an EXPTIME problem.
08:30:23 <bsmntbombdood> maybe a syntax that takes exponential time to parse
08:32:40 <oerjan> well general grammars (more than context-free) are TC to parse
08:32:59 <oerjan> and context-sensitive are PSPACE-complete
08:38:56 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: forcing parallellism is one of the things I'm dealing with in my University 4th-year projects
08:50:13 <ais523> <AnMaster> DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT! DRAFT!
08:50:15 <ais523> hmm... I like the way that some people seem to disregard such warnings anyway
08:51:28 <oerjan> draft can be dangerous to your health you know. there was this norwegian woman who ended up with a painful disease that ruined her face...
09:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | he says there's nine bytes of padding.
09:09:37 <oerjan> that's a bit close for comfort
09:17:42 <oklopol> but, i think i've found a way to do numbers now
09:17:53 <oklopol> and by that i mean, assign rationals to the vars
09:18:01 <oklopol> and perform division and multiplication between them
09:18:10 <oklopol> but let's start with syntax
09:18:16 <oklopol> am i interrupting something?
09:18:29 <oklopol> aaanyway, the syntax, currently, consists of just a list of variables
09:18:36 <oklopol> there are four ways to denote a variable
09:18:51 <oerjan> argh my silent meditation, you're ruining it!
09:18:59 <oklopol> the ways are a..z, A..Z, .a.b.c....z, .A.B.C....Z
09:19:18 <oklopol> a..z and A..Z are simply variables that aren't in any way special
09:19:36 <oklopol> .a and friends are variables, that are always true with a 0.5 probability
09:19:47 <oklopol> a is the negation of A, and .a is the negation of .A
09:20:11 <oklopol> the actual program consists of triples, written simply by concatenating three variables
09:20:17 <oklopol> like, a line of code could be
09:20:57 <oklopol> that means (A or not B or not C) and (A or B or not C) and ...
09:21:09 <oklopol> on every line, 3-sat is run on the set of clauses
09:21:28 <oklopol> now this is simple sofar, we've just set A to 1
09:21:43 <oklopol> but, this is the interesting part
09:22:13 <oklopol> let's assume we haven't set A to anything, and start with no vars set
09:22:26 <oklopol> we can set A to 0.5 by doing something like this
09:23:28 <oklopol> if you cannot see why, which i'm assuming you don't, i can show how to deduce that
09:24:13 <oklopol> we start with A = .A, because we want to set A to 0.5, that is, we want to "make A true with a 0.5 probability"
09:24:43 <oklopol> (.A's value has nothing to do with A's value initially, i'm just starting naming from A with both kinds of vars)
09:25:18 <oklopol> (A = .A) = (a ^ .a) v (A ^ .A)
09:26:20 <oklopol> well, i actually used a truth table, thought i could deduce this easily :P
09:26:52 <oklopol> (a ^ .a) v (A ^ .A) = (a ^ .a ^ b) v (A ^ .A ^ B) v (a ^ .a ^ b) v (A ^ .A ^ b)
09:27:05 <oklopol> this is clearly true, we've added a variable that, given either value, makes this true
09:27:45 <oklopol> now, we should turn the minterm representation into a maxterm one
09:28:17 <oklopol> so we take all the cases that make the statement false
09:28:50 <oklopol> that is, (A ^ .a ^ b) v (A ^ .a ^ B) v (a ^ .A ^ b) v (a ^ .A ^ b)
09:29:08 <oklopol> and we kinda flip it, to get
09:29:26 <oklopol> (A v .a v b) ^ (A v .a v B) ^ (a v .A v b) ^ (a v .A v b)
09:30:04 <oklopol> and then it's a simply syntactic manipulation to get A.aB A.ab a.AB a.Ab
09:30:37 <oklopol> i actually had an error there, let's see where i made it...
09:30:42 <oklopol> i should've prepared this :P
09:31:00 <ais523> try preparing and then pastebinning
09:31:05 <ais523> and no, I haven't done yet
09:31:11 <ais523> but I haven't really being paying attention
09:31:15 <ais523> I'm still in go-through-email phase
09:31:21 <ais523> and I was planning to logread it later
09:31:41 <oklopol> well perhaps i'll do it properly in a pastebin
09:32:14 <oklopol> seems i need to go now. be back as soon as possible
09:32:22 <oklopol> because this is not even the interesting part yet
09:35:18 <AnMaster> <ab5tract> assuming AnMaster comes through with the erlang threads
09:35:19 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Still, given how AnMaster is, I'd be surprised if it didn't.
09:36:16 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Doesn't cfunge already do that? At least it does 64-bit cells, it only stands to reason the cell addresses are 64-bit too. <-- well yeah
09:37:12 <AnMaster> ais523, have you seen the ATR spec?
09:37:19 <AnMaster> oh wait yeah you posted the DRAFT bit
09:37:24 <ais523> yes, well allowing for the typo yes
09:38:03 <AnMaster> ais523, I just had breakfast, and I'm not a person that is good with mornings
09:38:15 <ais523> well, I'm alright with mornings
09:38:20 <ais523> but only if I've had a good night's sleep
09:38:20 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, any comments on the spec?
09:38:30 <AnMaster> ais523, also mutex needs to be renamed
09:38:41 <AnMaster> maybe you got something better?
09:38:50 <ais523> I don't normally deal with that sort of threading stuff
09:39:01 <ais523> the threading stuff I deal with is much crazier
09:39:05 <AnMaster> the point is "mutex" and "lock" are too common words
09:39:17 <AnMaster> so I need a better, more original name
09:39:17 <ais523> do it like INTERCAL, have commands which dynamically delete themselves from the playfield when encountered
09:39:24 <ais523> atomically with whatever it is they were meant to be doing in the first place
09:39:50 <AnMaster> ais523, making stuff atomic here isn't very easy I'm afraid :/
09:40:17 <AnMaster> ais523, either it is async message passing (or blocking waiting for reply)
09:40:33 <AnMaster> or it is the set of actions restricted by ets tables
09:40:52 <AnMaster> the G P and C will need some complex locking
09:41:16 <AnMaster> Note that an implementation _may_ make g, p and other such instructions
09:41:16 <AnMaster> synchronous as well, but it is not guaranteed. Block access should never be
09:41:24 <AnMaster> at least to begin with that will be true
09:41:41 <AnMaster> g, p and such will be sync as well that is
09:42:32 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway do you have any knowledge of pthreads? Would this be painful to implement there?
09:42:46 <ais523> I don't have much knowledge of pthreads, and no idea
09:43:48 <AnMaster> it should be reasonably ok in erlang, only need G,P and C to handle a global lock there, since there is no atomic thing I can use as C on ets tables
09:56:06 <ais523> be back soon, rebooting (I've just upgraded the kernel)
10:29:42 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p545622444.txt
10:29:59 <ais523> you can find out by /pinging me
10:30:10 <ais523> if I'm not here you won't get a reply
10:30:47 <oklopol> check that out, probably doesn't make that much sense, in which case you can ask further questions
10:30:50 <AnMaster> ais523, I got a reply sometimes when you said just a few minutes after that your connection had failed
10:30:53 <oklopol> assuming you'll read that at some point
10:31:12 <ais523> yes, you have to wait for the bouncer to notice I'm not here first
10:31:16 <oklopol> which i hope you do, because i think it's a pretty interesting idea
10:32:50 <AnMaster> oklopol, a question about that
10:33:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, are C and c variables?
10:33:18 <oklopol> c is the negation of C, as i explain there
10:33:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, ".[A-Z] (and .[a-z]) denote variables (and their negations)"
10:33:59 <oklopol> i should've escaped . i guess
10:34:31 <oklopol> .[A-Z] aren't normal variables
10:34:36 <ais523> oklopol: .[A-Z] is perfectly good wildmat syntax
10:34:51 <oklopol> .[A-Z] (and .[a-z]) denote variables (and their negations) that are true with a 0.5 possibility
10:35:04 <AnMaster> well yeah, the issue was it seemed to suggest that v was also a variable
10:35:09 <oklopol> it seems i've removed the line that explains actual variables :P
10:35:27 <oklopol> AnMaster: well that's not the actual language's syntax, just logic to show how to deduce the program
10:35:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, still better explain variables too
10:36:19 <AnMaster> btw, is it turing complete or not?
10:37:47 <ais523> my guess is it'll be turing-complete once oklopol figures out how to do flow control
10:39:11 <oklopol> but sofar, i've only solved the issue of infinite storage
10:39:44 <ais523> oklopol: is it retrievable, though
10:39:49 <ais523> I see how to store rationals into variables
10:39:53 <ais523> but how do you get them back out again?
10:40:03 <oklopol> well i'm not *entirely* sure
10:40:17 <oklopol> but you can "or" variables to get them to grow in probability
10:40:33 <oklopol> so i'm pretty sure you can somehow encode integers that can be inc'd and dec'd
10:41:06 <oklopol> as it's 3-sat, i'm pretty sure it's a two-way operation
10:41:07 <ais523> but being able to tinker with a probability is no good if you can't find out what it is
10:41:10 <oklopol> so you can do something like
10:41:22 <oklopol> well i could make things depend on whether something is 1
10:41:31 <AnMaster> <ab5tract> are there any gooey kits for erlang?
10:41:31 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Don't know about Erlang; I'm sure there are, most languages seem to have bindings.
10:41:39 <oklopol> and 1/(2^n) can represent n
10:41:50 <oklopol> now, i can inc and dec as much as i want, and branch on 0
10:41:56 <oklopol> which is what register machines do
10:42:01 <AnMaster> I also seen some custom GUI toolkit rendered to opengl
10:42:11 <fizzie> And "erlgtk" in sf.net.
10:42:42 <oklopol> so, A = B + 1: A = B ^ .A; A = B - 1: B = A ^ .A
10:43:20 <AnMaster> and is used for the erlang debugger and some other bits
10:44:16 <ais523> depending on probability 1 seems a bit non-physical, really
10:44:19 <ais523> but I suppose it makes sense
10:44:30 <ais523> atm, I'm just annoyed with this VHDL project I'm doing
10:44:39 <ais523> I wrote it recursively originally but it crashed the compiler
10:44:46 <ais523> (I even got the compiler to segfault at one point)
10:44:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway I guess one could provide bindings for esdl to efunge... Would be pretty mad probably
10:44:50 <ais523> so I rewrote it iterativel
10:45:00 <AnMaster> might as well have "evaluate erlang term" or such
10:45:02 <ais523> which is a pain for parallelised mergesort
10:45:37 <ais523> anyway, now I'm trying it on a different compiler
10:45:41 <ais523> and it's reporting an internal error
10:45:45 <ais523> even for the iterative version
10:46:00 <ais523> and the line number it gives is in its own source code, only it's closed-source...
10:46:11 <AnMaster> ais523, what about using an open source one?
10:46:42 <oklopol> ais523: non-physical? i'm using an np-complete operation as the basic unit of computation, you think i care? :P
10:46:59 <AnMaster> ais523, and report that internal error as a bug to the developers
10:47:00 <ais523> AnMaster: but you need proprietary synthesisers to synthesise for proprietary FPGAs
10:47:06 <ais523> like the ones we have to use in the assignment
10:47:07 <oklopol> it's probably already tc if i just add a while loop.
10:47:35 <oklopol> assuming i have a scope for the loops
10:47:41 <ais523> hmm... not only is there an internal error, but the webpage that's meant to describe what the error is is 404
10:47:52 <ais523> now I have to guess what the problem is
10:48:19 <ais523> probably it's what VHDL was warning me about, for loops with exponentiation in the calculation of their bounds
10:48:49 <AnMaster> ais523, and how do you avoid that?
10:48:49 <ais523> (VHDL is very weird, most langs wouldn't care about something like that, but you have to understand that synthesis-VHDL has + - and *, but / is only possible by a constant power of 2, for instance)
10:49:09 <ais523> AnMaster: my guess is to pass the entity both the number of bits and 2 to its power as generics
10:49:18 <ais523> then loop too many times and use ifs to do nothing when the loop counter is too high
10:50:03 <ais523> it's the only lang I know of where arrays are normally numbered backwards
10:50:12 <ais523> i.e. the first element is some large number, the last element is 0
10:50:41 <ais523> because an integer is normally represented as an array of bits
10:50:45 <ais523> and that's the way bits are normally numbered
10:50:54 <ais523> it gets very confusing trying to do it the other way round
10:51:39 <oklopol> does anyone have ideas for a name for a language based on doing 3-sat with probabilities?
10:51:42 <ais523> say you have 128, as a std_logic_vector
10:51:46 <oklopol> oerjan: this may be your field
10:51:54 <ais523> then you want to extract the least significant bit
10:52:04 <ais523> slicing it with (0) makes a lot more sense than slicing it with (7)
10:52:09 <AnMaster> ais523, yep, that depends on endianness
10:52:21 <ais523> well, you define the endianness yourself in VHDL
10:52:26 <AnMaster> ais523, what about if you want the most significant bit then?
10:52:30 <oklopol> i don't like acronyms, i prefer puns of some kind
10:52:39 <ais523> but bits within a byte are nearly always big-endian in practice
10:52:51 <ais523> and you could write that as myvector'left
10:52:57 <ais523> well, myvector(myvector'left)
10:53:09 <AnMaster> ais523, does x86 have a bitendianness?
10:53:22 <ais523> AnMaster: what is this x86 you're talking about?
10:53:28 <oklopol> ais523: is VHDL a Lesser Language than Verilog?
10:53:35 <ais523> oklopol: they started out different
10:53:43 <oklopol> and by that i mean more low-level
10:53:44 <ais523> but after a while all the features from each were added to the other
10:53:52 <AnMaster> ais523, don't be silly, I was just wondering if bits are little- or big-endian on x86
10:53:56 <ais523> so nowadays they're the same lang with different syntax
10:54:17 <ais523> AnMaster: the x86 doesn't have bit-extract operations IIRC
10:54:21 <oklopol> well that's nice, syntax is what i learn the fastest
10:54:34 <ais523> most of the processors I know of that do number bits big-endian though
10:54:38 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed it doesn't, but internally it need to have some endianess for them
10:54:49 <ais523> the bits are on parallel wires, normally
10:54:52 <oklopol> no ideas for the name? guess i need to switch my brain to text mode
10:55:03 <AnMaster> ais523, what about serial interfaces then?
10:55:06 <oklopol> they're usually in math mode when designing the language
10:55:11 <ais523> AnMaster: they can be defined either way round
10:55:22 <ais523> I'm not sure offhand which RS-232 is
10:55:27 <ais523> which is embarrasing because I ought to be
10:56:17 <oklopol> AnMaster: i use plural and singular interchangeably when talking about brains
10:56:58 <AnMaster> well yeah the English way is pretty strange there... in Swedish you would use something like brainhalf when referring to the left or right part
10:57:59 <ais523> AnMaster: apparently SATA doesn't use either, it uses a lookup table to translate bytes into something more balanced
10:58:17 <ais523> computers are fine with a glut of 1s or 0s
10:58:22 <oklopol> the fun thing about loops is, this language is like prolog in that nothing you state is forgotten, ever, unless things go out of scope
10:58:28 <ais523> but fast cables don't like sending the same bit lots of times in a row
10:58:37 <oklopol> so the program is just an incredibly big set of clauses :P
10:58:47 <oklopol> let's try writing an infinite loop and invent flow control
10:59:00 <ais523> so basically it uses a lookup table to map the 256 possible bytes onto sets of 10 bits with balanced 0s and 1s
10:59:05 <ais523> thus no endianess involved
10:59:48 <AnMaster> ais523, what about using more than 1/0 when sending, having say 1,1.5,2,2.5 or so
11:00:09 <ais523> that doesn't help in practice for digital signals
11:00:16 <AnMaster> I mean generically it ought to be good data compression
11:00:22 <ais523> the data rate stays the same, because the noise susceptability gets worse
11:00:28 <ais523> so say you use 4 logic levels
11:00:37 <ais523> you have to halve the speed to keep the signal/noise performance the same
11:00:42 <AnMaster> ais523, did anyone ever use that on old modems to provide higher speed?
11:01:08 <ais523> I seriously doubt it, doubling the clock rate is normally a lot cheaper in circuitry than doubling the number of logic levels
11:01:18 <ais523> on the other hand, that sort of technique is used on radio signals all the time
11:01:24 <ais523> as they don't have constant voltages anyway
11:01:46 <ais523> well, that sort of thing
11:01:53 <ais523> also on wires which are sending waves rather than pulses
11:02:03 <ais523> but that's less common, normally only used for fibre optics and such
11:02:15 <ais523> because light is inherently a wave
11:02:28 <AnMaster> ais523, as well as a particle :P
11:03:01 <ais523> but the wave-like nature matters more if you're sending with lots of photons at once
11:03:09 <ais523> which most communication systems do
11:03:32 <AnMaster> anyway having 4 logic levels would allow you to encode bit-pairs. like 00 01 10 11
11:04:00 <AnMaster> which ought to double the speed in theory
11:05:14 <AnMaster> you don't even need to describe an uneven number of bits, since bytes are 8 bits and you never send anything less than bytes anyway
11:08:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
11:11:39 <oerjan> <oklopol> oerjan: this may be your field
11:12:06 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p633146536.txt <<< using the vars as numbers
11:12:48 <oklopol> is there a justification for No?
11:13:00 <oerjan> only to make the pun work
11:13:52 <oklopol> you see, i need to be able to explain all the parts of the name to myself
11:13:58 <oklopol> out of the realm of the pun
11:14:13 <oklopol> must be completely sensible both as a pun and as just a name
11:15:38 <oklopol> looping is a bit hard to do, because i don't want to do it like prolog does, and i don't want mutable variables
11:16:11 <oklopol> so i want an explicit looping construct with scoping so i can create new variables
11:17:01 <oklopol> i guess i'll just start from the top, and convert something prolog-like into
11:17:43 <oklopol> oh, basically i want a construct that simulates tail-recursion
11:18:58 <oklopol> it's a while loop that's basically a procedure, the "scope" is simply the list of arguments, and after the loop, we recurse with some variables we created in the body as the new arguments
11:19:09 <oklopol> i'll try making an example
11:19:28 <ais523> ah, the lecturer here has solved my VHDL compiler problem
11:19:32 <ais523> by giving me a third compiler
11:19:43 <ais523> (and it seems to handle the code fine)
11:27:44 <ais523> also, VHDL is the only lang I think I've ever written a for loop which only ever iterates once
11:28:42 <oerjan> always exactly once? or once or zero
11:29:07 <oerjan> and this seemed like a good idea at the time?
11:29:15 <ais523> it still seems like a good idea now
11:29:17 <ais523> it saved a lot of typing
11:29:33 <ais523> basically I used it to define a variable at compile-time
11:29:36 <oklopol> oerjan: i'm pretty sure he's written brainfuck, and i'm pretty sure he's done ifs
11:29:40 <ais523> a constant with a calculated value
11:30:02 <ais523> by having it at both ends of the control range
11:30:09 <ais523> and using the iteration count as a constant
11:30:24 <ais523> for-generate loops are always unrolled at compile time in VHDL
11:30:29 <ais523> and I'm taking advantage of that here
11:31:53 <oerjan> is this just a way to simulate functional-style let expressions?
11:32:34 <ais523> given that the expression in question is (2**inputcountbits)*((depth*(depth-1)/2)-1)+(2**depth)*height, I think it was justified
11:32:48 <ais523> also I use that value 12 times within the 'loop'
11:33:01 <oerjan> i'm just surprised there is no simpler way
11:33:20 <ais523> generally speaking people don't do expressions that complicated at compile-time
11:33:30 <ais523> heh, I even have a compile-time bit-reversal function
11:33:34 <ais523> but that's written as a procedure
11:33:46 <ais523> I can do that because it's never involved in the control variable of a for-generate loop
11:33:58 <oerjan> ah so it's something Man was not meant to do
11:34:14 <oerjan> clearly some good Mad Science, then
11:34:23 <ais523> well, more to the point, it's because most of VHDL is deliberately limited to simple stuff
11:34:30 <ais523> because most VHDL synthesisers are stupid
11:34:46 <ais523> for instance there are some cases where and isn't commutative
11:34:59 <ais523> simply because if you write the arguments the other way round, the synthesiser won't recognise the idiom
11:35:12 <ais523> so one way round works, the other is a compile failure
11:36:58 <AnMaster> ais523, so non-idiomatic VHDL is a bad idea?
11:37:10 <ais523> you have to memorise the idioms more or less
11:37:29 <ais523> hmm... it's sufficiently annoying, actually, that I'm thinking about writing a compiler from non-idiomatic VHDL to idiomatic VHDL
11:37:49 <ais523> which let you express all the things which are very difficult to express in idiomatic VHDL
11:38:48 <ais523> for instance, it took me about an hour to figure out how to express a latch that can be sampled at the leading edge of any of a set of clocks
11:38:57 <ais523> it involves a latch for each clock, and lots of XORs
11:39:19 <ais523> so each clock toggles one latch whenever it wants to toggle the output, and the latch's outputs are xored together
11:40:08 <ais523> nonidiomatically you just need to write leading_edge(clock1) or leading_edge(clock2), which is so much simpler...
11:43:18 <ais523> anyway, going to get lunch now, I'll be back in a bit
11:57:02 <oklopol> okay, i think the language's semantics are complete now, and i think it's TC, but it's so weird i'm not sure i have the courage to spec it.
11:59:43 <ehird> 22:20:19 <fizzie> ehird: You get a%x from (a+b)%x if you know b and x; doesn't matter, of course, if you limit yourself to numbers in [0, x-1]. And if you noticed, I did use numbers [0, 19] for d20 precisely for that reason.
11:59:56 <ehird> Yeah, but, there are two rolls of sides that added mod sides
12:01:13 <fizzie> Yes, that's what I did.
12:02:07 <fizzie> "<a> I want to roll a d20, my hash is -- <b> okay, my [1, *20*] random number is <x>"
12:03:13 <ehird> fizzie: the point is, at the end, you have to use the crazy hash data to seed the prng, generate a number (which will be equal to a's!!), then check that it's alice's part
12:03:15 <ehird> if ((alices_num + num) % sides) == final:
12:03:17 <ehird> seems to work fine
12:03:44 <ehird> fizzie: version 2.0: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1229263
12:03:59 <ehird> Usage: 'python roll.py [sides|100]'
12:04:10 <ehird> If you add 'alice' to the end of the arguments, you are the diceroller persony thing.
12:04:23 <ehird> When it outputs a line, paste it to IRC, when you get a line from IRC, paste it in.
12:04:44 <ehird> Nobody apart from me has tested being alice, so feel free to do that if you want.
12:07:41 <fizzie> I'm not sure I see the need of the PRNG there, instead of just taking the seed modulo sides. It's random, already.
12:08:04 <ehird> Oops there's a bug on b's side.
12:08:08 <ehird> change sides/2 to sides
12:08:25 <ehird> fizzie: because it didn't have an even distribution when i tried that
12:08:34 <ehird> it had a strong bias to small numbers.
12:08:51 <ehird> but yeah if you want to test it changes sides/2 to sides and run it as 'python roll.py 100 alice' :-P
12:09:20 <fizzie> That's strange, /dev/random bits should be uniformly distributed.
12:09:39 <ehird> fizzie: They are, but play up when modulo'd.
12:10:13 <ehird> I think it'd work if the sides were divisible by the number of the bits or some silly thing like that
12:10:22 <fizzie> It should be a pretty small bias when you have a big number (is that 50 bytes?) and are computing modulo a small number of sides.
12:10:39 <ehird> fizzie: oh, yeah, 50 bytes. And, well, the sides is arbitary.
12:10:42 <fizzie> I guess involving the PRNG can help, though.
12:10:51 <ehird> I've been testing with 100 sides, but 10 sides and 1000 sides are perfectly reasonable.
12:11:58 <AnMaster> "<ehird> I think it'd work if the sides were divisible by the number of the bits or some silly thing like that" <-- you need the MAX_INT_FOR_YOUR_SIZE % MAX_SIDES == 0
12:12:22 <ehird> So I've brought the PRNG in.
12:12:24 <fizzie> It's a bias, yes, I just wonder how easy it should be to notice.
12:12:45 <ehird> alright. should we test? Let's do 1000 sides, for the novelty. I'll be bob.
12:12:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, depends on the values of MAX_INT_FOR_YOUR_SIZE and MAX_SIDES
12:14:34 -!- jix has joined.
12:15:47 <fizzie> I mean... if you take a uniformly distributed unsigned 32-bit number, so [0, 4294967295], and do modulo 1000, you still get a probability of .00099999983585 for [0, 295] and .00100000006868 for [296, 999]. That's something that's not very noticeable.
12:16:09 <ehird> Yeah, but, 10 sided dice.
12:16:11 <ehird> Are far more common :-P
12:16:33 <fizzie> Yes, and the bias is even smaller there.
12:17:44 <fizzie> .09999999990686774 vs. .10000000013969 for ranges [0, 5] and [6, 9].
12:18:05 <ehird> fizzie: Well, shush you. :-P
12:18:13 <ehird> Are there any actual _advantages_?
12:18:34 <fizzie> Less complex, and you don't have to trust your PRNG to do anything sensible. Not much else.
12:19:30 <ehird> fizzie: Well, fine, I'll make it do that
12:19:41 <ehird> Because you're a communist. :|
12:20:06 <fizzie> If you want to do it without bias, you'll need to take a number in range [0, K] where K % sides == 0; you can do that by discarding unfun values.
12:20:10 <fizzie> Oh, right, roll 1000 c21ca587f12bd71d1ac8b2e99c5cc3d7a9541efe
12:20:47 <ais523> also, my email is broken atm
12:20:55 <ais523> the University's server admins strike again...
12:21:10 <ehird> fizzie: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1229270
12:21:23 <ais523> and the Door has gone through a whole load of revisions since Wednesday, it seems
12:21:29 <ais523> atm it lets me in and out, but not anybody else...
12:21:56 <fizzie> Anyway... you can do "limit = max_int / sides * sides" (if you have a truncating division) and then reading random numbers as long as you get something that's <limit, if you want to avoid that bias. It should be pretty unlikely to get numbers that are >= sides.
12:21:59 <oerjan> the admins are regularly on strike?
12:22:14 <ais523> oerjan: no, just incompetent AFAICT
12:22:17 <ehird> fizzie: Is the bias ever really that bad?
12:22:25 <ais523> or maybe competent just Exchange is good enough at breaking to beat them regularl
12:22:41 <ehird> fizzie: I mean, the PRNG is effectively 0-bias.
12:22:47 <ehird> And... that's a good thing in a dice roller.
12:23:19 <ais523> also, I have a new mouse now, not that that's particularly relevant
12:23:20 <fizzie> ehird: That just depends on how Python implements the .randint(0, sides) part.
12:23:25 <ais523> bought it about 10 mins ago because the last one broke
12:23:38 <ehird> fizzie: Mersenne Twister, I believe.
12:23:59 <ais523> even better, this is Linux, so I can just ignore the install CD
12:24:08 <fizzie> That's the PRNG, but it doesn't say anything how Python reduces it to that range, since that's what causes the bias in the straight-forward modulo thing.
12:24:24 <AnMaster> ais523, as for that door, weird...
12:24:27 * ais523 wonders if move-mouse-wheel-sideways does anything, or is even detected by Linux
12:24:43 <ais523> probably not, as Emacs seems not to notice it
12:24:44 <AnMaster> ais523, ah that I can help with I think
12:24:45 <fizzie> Simply using the computing the next PRNG state and using that modulo N won't help with the bias except that it will bias something else than the small numbers consecurively.
12:24:51 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not sure what I'd do with it anyway
12:24:52 <AnMaster> ais523, it needs a bit of work in xorg.conf
12:25:02 <AnMaster> ais523, not mouse driver, but evdev
12:25:13 <ais523> what is it meant to do, btw?
12:25:19 <ehird> fizzie: Okay, true.
12:25:23 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p543544164.txt <<< a short program written in a noprob wimpmode
12:25:26 <ehird> fizzie: Well, http://pastebin.ca/raw/1229270, and let's try. :-P
12:25:40 <ais523> ugh, that isn't a particularly common operatoin
12:25:43 <fizzie> ehird: I'm already trying, but it's horribly slow. There's not much entropy going in that box.
12:25:43 <AnMaster> ais523, quite good in, say, gimp or similar
12:25:44 <ehird> test 1 of version 2 of the amazing
12:25:56 <ehird> DISTRIBUTED CHEAT-PROOF DICE ROLLER
12:25:57 <ais523> if it happens on a web page, I hold middle mouse button and use autoscroll (I have firefox set to autoscroll)
12:26:11 <ais523> ah, and I don't do much graphics, that probably explains it
12:26:30 * oklopol tries again when the traffic dies down a bit
12:26:40 <ais523> oklopol: I'm looking at that link now
12:26:52 <ais523> hmm... now I want to invent a mouse which has a trackball under each finger
12:26:58 <ais523> each of which can be clicked downwards as well as moved
12:27:01 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway evdev is a generic thing that can handle most types of HID devices basically
12:27:09 <ehird> fizzie: For me it's instant. I think OS X /dev/random uses Yarrow...
12:27:16 <oklopol> i'm not that good at speccing, i either give examples or just formally define how to run the language.
12:27:20 <AnMaster> err that would be silly "HID devices" since HID means Human Interface Device iirc
12:27:21 <oklopol> so i usually take the example road
12:27:23 <ehird> but yeah, it's instantaneous for me
12:27:39 <ais523> wtf does "Probloture" mean?
12:27:41 <oklopol> which isn't really a spec, but perhaps gives you an idea how problotures work
12:27:44 <ehird> AnMaster: I got the money to buy a HID device from the ATM machine, but I had to enter my PIN number and I got RAS syndrome.
12:27:51 <oklopol> but you can only do tail-recursive calls
12:28:07 <AnMaster> ehird, what is RAS? Remote Access Service?
12:28:10 <oklopol> kinda like a lambda that cannot be passed to other lambdas, but it's implicitly passed itself.
12:28:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Redundant Acronym Syndrome syndrome
12:28:50 <AnMaster> ehird, and ATM would be Async Transfer Mode to me
12:29:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Automated Teller Machine.
12:29:10 <oklopol> ais523: procedure + block = probloture
12:29:24 <oklopol> i couldn't find a sillier way to mix those together
12:29:30 <ais523> really, though, redundant RAS syndrome is just a syndrome caused by redundant use of acronyms
12:29:30 <fizzie> ehird: Don't know about OS X; at least on Linux reading from /dev/random will block until the kernel thinks it's seen enough entropy to actually return random numbers; and there's not many entropy sources on that box. I assume it uses interrupt timing as one source, but since there's no keyboard/mouse it won't get those very much either.
12:29:39 <AnMaster> ais523, also clicking middle button can be a bit hard with a tilting scrollwheel, at least it took a while to learn it for me
12:29:44 <fizzie> Well, there it goes: roll 1000 e62a7161266e41a150dd47f895c3fd3bcccd332d
12:29:52 <AnMaster> ais523, since if the wheel is tilted the click doesn't register
12:29:59 <ehird> fizzie: rolled 664
12:30:07 <ais523> ehird: on Linux read from /dev/urandom instead if you want it to invent slightly less random numbers rather than waiting for entropy
12:30:14 <ehird> ais523: no, I want true randomness
12:30:31 <AnMaster> ehird, even /dev/random isn't truly random
12:30:36 <ehird> if i'm paranoid enough to make it distribute over 2 users to eliminate cheating i'm paranoid enough to make sure it's truly random
12:30:39 <ehird> but it's closer than urandom
12:30:50 <fizzie> ais523: This is dice-rolling, after all! You can't be too careful.
12:30:52 <oerjan> oklopol: you realize there is no t in either of the mixed words?
12:31:03 <ehird> fizzie: Did you notice my reply?
12:31:06 <ehird> Paste it into the program. :P
12:31:08 <ais523> oerjan: t is a contraction of cd in this case
12:31:24 <ais523> oklopol: looks interesting, I think I get how it works
12:31:25 <oklopol> but yeah i guess it just sounded better.
12:31:26 <ehird> <ehird> fizzie: rolled 664
12:31:39 <oerjan> that's some nasty assimilation
12:31:46 <oklopol> ais523: that was the closest to while-loops i could get without adding mutability
12:31:49 <fizzie> final roll 745 (GaA7CjB9HcbwBdFkwZzBe1lsln6sl8JlOe6ZqVT0erl2JyPWGHNG3gnUdzSeHLKARMk=)
12:31:56 <oklopol> i didn't want any of those
12:31:56 <ais523> what do you mean by "mutability" here?
12:32:03 <ehird> fizzie: Well, my program says you're not a cheating communist.
12:32:15 <oklopol> ais523: that a variable could change value because of something other than backtracking.
12:32:26 <ais523> also, how do you do the equivalent of an if?
12:32:27 <oklopol> everything that's stated must always be true
12:32:37 <fizzie> Maybe I should've tried to cheat.
12:32:41 <oklopol> see the example in the end
12:33:06 <ais523> except VHDL doesn't do backtracking
12:33:23 <ais523> hmm... NoProb : Prolog :: VHDL : C
12:33:29 <ais523> that's one strange analogy
12:33:36 <oklopol> perhaps something like that :P
12:33:56 <ais523> AnMaster: oklopol's 3-sat language
12:33:57 <oklopol> AnMaster: the language i made today
12:34:15 <oklopol> NoProb, NP, 3-sat is an np-complete problem
12:34:19 <ais523> well, it's a very oklo sort of name
12:34:23 <oklopol> Prob because there's probabilities involved
12:34:25 <ais523> just because all the vowels are o
12:34:53 * ais523 wonders how easy it would be to write English without a, e, i, or u
12:35:14 <ais523> AnMaster: also I can middle-click even with a tilted scroll wheel
12:35:24 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, what mouse is it then?
12:35:35 <oerjan> ais523: not so good to do
12:35:42 <ais523> larger than my old mouse
12:35:50 <AnMaster> ais523, I have issues finding a large enough mouse, or even large enough keyboard
12:35:52 <ais523> could be interesting carting it around in a laptop bag, I suppose...
12:35:53 <oklopol> how the fuck can i implement that
12:36:01 <AnMaster> a full size pc keyboard is about as small as I can handle
12:36:08 <AnMaster> I would prefer slightly larger
12:36:21 <ais523> maybe you should get a projection keyboard, and put it further away from the table
12:36:26 <ais523> but those take a lot of getting used to
12:36:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I also like "deep" keyboards, so laptop ones are horrible, the keys should go down properly
12:36:56 * ais523 tries to imagine AnMaster using an iPhone
12:36:59 <ehird> full-sized php keyboards suck, this apple keyboard is stretching it a bit
12:37:04 <ehird> can't reach the very top keys
12:37:09 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, ok, projection keyboards are famous for the keys not going down at all
12:37:22 <oklopol> i could solve 3-sat with brute-force and a few optimizations, the problem is, there are probabilities, so really i'm solving the #P version of it, because i need to enumerate all ways to get truth out of a statement
12:37:24 <ehird> ais523: the iphone keyboard isn't actually that bad once you get used to it...
12:37:29 <ehird> my recent agora mails where sent with it
12:37:34 <ehird> (post-2am bst last night)
12:37:36 <ais523> ehird: it probably depends on how big yout hands are
12:37:44 <ehird> ais523: you use one single finger...
12:37:44 <AnMaster> also it seems only Microsoft make reasonably sized mice
12:38:09 <AnMaster> yet those mice are at least usable even though they are about 1 cm too short
12:38:10 <oklopol> another problem are the recursion vars
12:38:14 <ais523> Microsoft don't make mice at all, the Microsoft mice are Logitech mice with a different logo on IIRC
12:38:33 <AnMaster> ais523, the Logitech ones I seen have been smaller and harder to use
12:38:43 <ais523> yes, probably they're different hardware specs
12:38:44 <fizzie> I don't know about Microsoft today, but they certainly weren't logitech mice around the Intellimouse Explorer time.
12:38:57 <oklopol> the problem somehow needs to evaluate 3-sat *lazily*, and still *enumerate all possible ways to get 1*, if it's not lazy, it will infloop, if it doesn't enumerate all possibilities, it cannot calculate probabilities
12:38:58 <ais523> also, does anyone else use less to read email, or is it just me?
12:39:04 <ehird> AnMaster: are your hands like... joseph merricks
12:39:07 <AnMaster> well mine says "Microsoft Comfort Optical Mouse 3000"
12:39:22 <ehird> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Merrick the elephant man
12:39:26 <oklopol> but, i guess this is my everest, not yours, i think i'll read something
12:39:41 <fizzie> How long is that Comfort three thousand?
12:39:47 <ais523> hmm... I've realised that all my 4 or so outstanding problems to solve before I can implement Feather are actually the same problem
12:40:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm just large. Around 190 cm iirc (189.7 cm I think last I checked)
12:40:25 <ais523> wow, that is pretty tall
12:40:36 <AnMaster> ais523, well yeah, I'm tallest in family
12:40:54 <ehird> i don't know centimeters for height
12:40:56 <ais523> the outstanding problem in Feather is: to determine what in the program after a change corresponded to what before a change
12:41:00 <AnMaster> (about 3 cm longer than my dad, and 5 cm longer than mom.)
12:41:08 <ais523> ehird: there are 39 inches in a metre, you can calculate it from that
12:41:14 <ais523> AnMaster: also "taller" not "longer" when talking about people
12:41:15 <ehird> i was just commenting
12:41:17 <ehird> since i just realised
12:41:25 <ehird> i know some things in metric and some in imperial
12:41:31 <AnMaster> same word for both in Swedish...
12:41:47 <ais523> yes, there's no real reason to draw a distinction
12:41:54 <ehird> <AnMaster> (about 3 cm longer than my dad, and 5 cm longer than mom.) <- heh, this is a rather unfortunate slip derived from being non-native...
12:42:00 <ais523> in English, I think "taller" is normally used for things that are generally measured upwards
12:42:22 <ais523> whereas longer is used for something that's measured horizontally, like snakes
12:42:34 <oklopol> in finnish, we have separate words for tall and long, except we still use long for people :P
12:42:36 <AnMaster> ais523, what about diagonally?
12:42:46 <ais523> AnMaster: hmm... that's an interesting point
12:42:53 <ais523> probably I'd use "long" for 45 degrees
12:43:03 <oklopol> saying someone is tall would be like saying they're "high"
12:43:04 <ais523> but it would become more likely to be "tall" as it became more vertical
12:43:10 <oklopol> except without the drug connotation
12:43:26 <ais523> probably it wouldn't be consistent from one speaker to another, probably not even from one speaker to themself
12:43:32 <ais523> so yes, it's a stupid distinction
12:43:47 <ehird> i've always been the smallest person in any group of my age
12:43:51 <AnMaster> well yeah oklopol, you could use "högt" (high) about a building or so
12:44:01 * ais523 didn't invent English, and normally finds themself agreeing with foreigners when they complain about English being stupid
12:44:06 <ehird> honestly, i'm about as big as a 9 year old
12:44:10 <AnMaster> but long would also work I think
12:44:32 <ais523> in English "high" would refer to the object itself being a long way above ground, rather than the top of the object
12:44:44 <ais523> except for buildings sometimes we use "high" anyway despite that rule
12:44:52 <ehird> ais523: yeah, "that building is really high"
12:44:54 <AnMaster> ais523, a tall tower or a high tower?
12:44:57 <ais523> everything in English seems to have exceptions
12:44:59 <ehird> (a nice interpretation of that is that the building is on drugs)
12:45:03 <ais523> they mean the same thing
12:45:11 <ais523> but only for buildings, for some reason
12:45:13 <oklopol> ehird: so, basically, you decided to stop growing your body and used excess on your brain?
12:45:22 <ais523> a tall aeroplane and a high aeroplane would be quite different
12:45:26 <ehird> oklopol: no, but it would be amusing to have a huge bulging head
12:45:28 <oklopol> meaning you're actually 15 on irc
12:45:42 <AnMaster> ais523, an aircraft located at a high altitude?
12:45:53 <ais523> as opposed to an aircraft which measured a lot from top to bottom
12:45:57 <oklopol> ehird: excess in years, not size
12:45:57 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/77l5b/forget_rss_here_comes_flickrs_lol_feed/
12:46:03 <fizzie> fi:korkea means "has a large vertical extent", while fi:korkealla means "located at a high altitude".
12:46:12 <ehird> ais523: it's just a lolcode bastardization.
12:46:19 <ehird> why can't flickr have done an underload feed?
12:46:20 <ais523> is that even possible?
12:46:25 <ehird> http://api.flickr.com/services/feeds/photos_public.gne?id=68497070@N00&lang=en-us&format=lol The offender.
12:46:37 <ehird> ais523: it's basically just "made up shit"
12:46:40 <ehird> except it looks like lolcode
12:46:44 <oklopol> IM IN UR BUCKETS MAKING UP FORMATS <<< i found this pretty funny :o
12:46:53 <ais523> but it's the only funny line in the thing
12:46:57 <fizzie> The fi:-lla suffix is something like the 'on' preposition in English.
12:47:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok you are worse with suffixes than Swedish then...
12:48:10 <fizzie> Except that the 'on' preposition in English has a whole lotta uses. Well, I guess our suffix has some others, too.
12:48:20 <ais523> ehird: the commentors are right, though, that is shorter and clearer than XML, even when compressed
12:48:38 <ais523> fizzie: it's worse in Latin, "in" and "on" are the same word there
12:48:40 <ehird> ais523: Well: http://nomic.info/perlnomic/log.rss
12:48:49 <oklopol> ais523: the distinction of tall and long is not an arbitrary distinction between objects in different angles, it's so you can tell what kind of size the speaker means
12:48:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, prepositions never seem to have a 1:1 mapping between languages, for any preposition...
12:49:47 <ais523> ehird: well, OK, it still has lots of unnecessary stuff in though
12:49:50 <ehird> Guys. A blast from the past: http://web.archive.org/web/20040130154403/http://mozilla.org/. Who remembers going there?!
12:50:03 <ehird> They told you to nab mozilla 1.6 with that flashy silver icon.
12:50:03 <ais523> someone should invent a YAML version of RSS
12:50:12 <ehird> "Mozilla Firebird" was a technology preview.
12:50:18 <ehird> by why the lucky stiff, it's !okay/news
12:50:20 <ehird> but...nobody uses it
12:50:23 <ais523> now someone should make it widely used
12:50:24 <ehird> because nothing supports it
12:50:32 <ehird> i think the _only_ implementor is hobix for obvious reasons
12:50:49 <ehird> but yeah, share in my wow at that old mozilla homepage
12:51:20 <ehird> AnMaster: because it's a blast from the past, so shush
12:51:38 <ais523> that reddit entry about the Google quine is quite interesting
12:51:53 <ehird> AnMaster: that's because you're an inhuman, lifeless machine. :|
12:51:53 <ais523> google a number and return that many results
12:52:01 <ais523> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/77o4g/proggit_chalenge_find_a_number_n_which_when/ is the discussion
12:52:07 <ais523> apparently 545000 works for some people
12:52:14 <ais523> but it returned 548000 when I tried
12:52:20 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 548,000 for 545000. (0.05 seconds)
12:52:48 <ehird> google indexes reddit really rapidly.
12:52:51 <AnMaster> "I have discovered a truly marvelous number with this property but I can't post it here, because then Google would index my comment and it wouldn't be valid any longer."
12:52:57 <ehird> and all the sites that nab stuff from reddit
12:54:03 <fizzie> AnMaster: Anything natural-language-related is just exceptions on top of other exceptions. For example our adessive case (the "-lla" suffix) has the basic meaning "on top of something" or "around something", but it's also used to indicate possession; "the cat has ears" is "kissalla on korvat", which literally translated would be "there are ears on top of the cat".
12:54:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, that sounds hilarious in Swedish
12:54:54 <AnMaster> considering "korv" means "sausage"
12:55:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, well that is one variant
12:55:30 <fizzie> It's the famous one. :p
12:56:12 -!- oerjan has quit ("DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT").
12:56:50 <fizzie> We've got something called "lauantaimakkara", literally "Saturday sausage"; I've never been quite clear what's very Saturday-like about it. It's pretty tasteless.
12:56:54 <ehird> DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!DRAFT
12:58:46 <AnMaster> please please don't let this become sort of channel in-joke
12:59:13 <ais523> AnMaster: you've pretty much guaranteed it will now
12:59:24 <ehird> DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT!!!!!!!!!!DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT!!!!!!!!!!DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT!!!!!!!!!!DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT!!!!!!!!!!DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT!!!!!!!!!!DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT!!!!!!!!!!DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT!!!!!!!!!!DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT!!!!!!!!!!DD!!RR!!AA!!FF!!TT
12:59:42 <ais523> ^echochohoo !!!DRAFT!!!
12:59:47 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp
12:59:47 <ehird> <blink><font color=red><marquee>DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT</marquee></font></blink>
12:59:59 <fizzie> I think some of 'em were lost when someone crashed fungot this morning.
12:59:59 <fungot> fizzie: hitler killed a lot of
13:00:19 <ais523> AnMaster: said something, then said it again minus the first char, then again minus the first two chars, and so on
13:00:19 <fizzie> Given the input 12345, it outputted "123452345345455".
13:00:35 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I need to figure out the TODO marked bits, a good name for mutexes (latch is top one currently)
13:01:02 <ais523> not that it's anything appropriate, but it sounds nice and mysterious
13:01:13 <fizzie> So it would've outputted: !!!DRAFT!!!!!DRAFT!!!!DRAFT!!!DRAFT!!!RAFT!!!AFT!!!FT!!!T!!!!!!!!!
13:01:16 <AnMaster> I would prefer that it make some kind of sense
13:01:26 <ais523> AnMaster: wrong channel
13:01:38 <AnMaster> ais523, no more like a extended metaphor
13:01:57 <ehird> if you want memes to make sense, get out of #esoteric
13:01:57 <oklopol> latches? just call them unsafe flip-flops
13:02:18 <AnMaster> oklopol, the logic was: mutexes -> locks -> latches
13:02:30 <oklopol> yes, and i continued one level more
13:02:38 <AnMaster> a latch would have the operations latch/unlatch/inspect
13:02:39 <fizzie> You could use I and O (as in flIp and flOp) as the operations; no-one would ever remember which one was which.
13:03:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh, but what about the try-lock one?
13:03:11 <fizzie> AnMaster: U, as in flUb.
13:04:00 <fizzie> Maybe a bit silly. I'm trying to think of something completely surprising but with real-life mutual-exclusion semantics. Not having too much luck yet.
13:06:52 <AnMaster> deploy, fire, ask to be allowed to enter?
13:06:55 <ais523> hmm... the concept of bouncers seems to be an antipattern, actually
13:07:08 <ais523> presumably IRC channels have join and quit messages for a reason
13:07:20 <ehird> i don't thiink he's talking about an irc bouncer
13:07:22 <ais523> and bouncers exist to stop them ending up in the channel
13:07:51 <AnMaster> ais523, as one outside a restaurant(sp?)
13:08:01 <AnMaster> think that is the English word for them?
13:08:01 <fizzie> Like this: "Critical sections in the code can be done by copyRighting a particular number; when you have done that, no other thread may copyRight the same number, until you explicitly copyLeft the number first."
13:08:30 <ais523> more often pubs and nightclubs than restaurants, though
13:08:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, and what about try-lock operation?
13:09:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, "send a letter asking for permission to use"?
13:09:57 <fizzie> Thinking. "You can also simply File for copyright with the F instruction; unlike the copyRight instruction, filing for copyright won't block your thread, but you only get the copyRight for the desired number if it was free."
13:10:52 <AnMaster> except what are the implications for FOSS in this?
13:11:35 <AnMaster> oh and using the number in other contexts is obviously fair use.
13:12:11 <AnMaster> (such as in unrelated calculations)
13:12:23 <fizzie> Yes, the concept of copyRight in your language would be pretty limited; the only thing it would prevent is the copyRighting of the same number by someone else.
13:12:37 <ais523> that's not copyright, that's trademarks
13:13:13 <fizzie> It's not exactly trademarks either, since there are at least some things you can't do with someone else's trademarked logo or thing.
13:13:41 <ais523> the main thing you can't do with someone else's trademark is use it in a context unrelated to them
13:13:55 <ais523> I can talk about Microsoft Windows without problems, referring to the operating system
13:14:00 <AnMaster> (sco - microsoft) / novell * apple
13:14:05 <ais523> if I tried to make my own OS called Microsoft Windows, though, I'd be in trouble
13:14:10 <ais523> AnMaster: 0, obviously
13:14:16 <ais523> because that's what sco-microsoft evaluates to
13:14:29 <fizzie> Are you implying sco = microsoft?
13:14:42 <ais523> fizzie: I'm implying that SCO would probably be nothing without Microsoft
13:14:56 <ais523> I'm interpreting the - as set subtraction, rather than numerical subtraction
13:15:00 <ais523> which is not anticommutative
13:15:08 <AnMaster> ais523, yet you could sell windows?
13:15:20 <ais523> AnMaster: it depends on the scope of the trademark
13:15:27 <ais523> there's a huge court case going on about this at the moment
13:15:35 <ais523> between Apple the record company and Apple the computer company
13:15:52 <ais523> the record company claim the computer company started to breach their trademark when they released the iPod
13:16:07 <ais523> being music-related, you see
13:16:21 <AnMaster> ais523, then they did it when you included speakers in the computers too
13:16:42 <ais523> well, yes trademark law is a mess
13:16:49 <ais523> as far as I know that court case is still ongoing
13:17:02 <fizzie> There's been quite a lot of Apple Corps vs. Apple Computer trademark disputes.
13:17:15 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v._Apple_Computer
13:17:18 <fizzie> Wikipedia "Apple Corps v. Apple Computer" lists six.
13:17:42 <fizzie> Okay, six sections, anyway.
13:17:44 <ais523> hmm... it seems they settled eventually
13:17:52 <ais523> (in the 2007 one, which is the one I was thinking about)
13:18:02 <ais523> no idea who would have won if they hadn't
13:18:55 <fizzie> Still, you'll have to worry about a language where you can trademark small integers... well, except that in this language the scope of the trademarks would prevent people (well, threads) _only_ from trademarking the same numbers, not from using them any way they wish.
13:19:00 <AnMaster> stupid thing to name it the same
13:19:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, yep so I'll not use that terminology
13:20:13 <ais523> maybe "booking out", as in a library?
13:20:38 <ais523> you can book out things, and you give them back later
13:20:45 <ais523> you can't book something out if someone else has booked it out
13:20:56 <ais523> normally, though, when you book something out you say how long you're going to need it for
13:21:09 <fizzie> Possession of a physical object is one thing that's naturally mutually exclusive, yes.
13:21:10 <AnMaster> I thought it was "lend/return"
13:21:11 <ais523> AnMaster: you sign a piece of paper to say that you have it
13:21:44 <AnMaster> ais523, also you can normally be put on a queue for the book, which kind of doesn't work here since the queue order is non-deterministic
13:21:53 <AnMaster> at least that is how erlang currently implements waiting for locks
13:22:06 <fizzie> It's just a bit strange library, that's all. :p
13:22:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, and the try lock would be checking if a book is in?
13:22:34 <ais523> heh yes, a reservation
13:22:48 <ais523> or one of those library enquiry computer things
13:23:34 <AnMaster> ais523, try lock wouldn't be like reservation really? Since it would reflect instead of block if the book/lock was lended/held
13:23:56 <AnMaster> still it may kind of work I guess
13:24:51 <AnMaster> so the operations are: loan/return/???
13:25:11 <ais523> loan, return, check status
13:25:31 <AnMaster> ais523, C and S are in use and hard to change. hm
13:25:46 <ais523> both seem to fit well there
13:25:51 <fizzie> Wiktionary says that "loan" as a verb is ungrammatical outside the US: "to loan: (US) To lend. This usage is confined to the US (or perhaps parts thereof) and elsewhere is ungrammatical (loan being the noun, and lend the verb)."
13:26:23 <AnMaster> so T reflects if the book is loaned?
13:26:31 <AnMaster> sounds like wrong grammar to me
13:26:40 <fizzie> But the past tense for "to lend" is "lent", not "lended", apparently.
13:27:12 <ais523> and "on loan" is the phrase you're looking for
13:27:16 <ais523> not that that makes any sense either
13:27:33 <AnMaster> ais523, and the opposite of that?
13:27:45 <ais523> the libraries I use call it "available"
13:28:29 <AnMaster> and the number is obviously the extended ISBN (any number, not just well formed isbn)
13:28:53 <fizzie> Heh. "I called my library and tried to borrow the number 4, but unfortunately that number was already on loan."
13:29:28 <fizzie> Actually isn't "borrow" the correct verb for the receiving end?
13:29:45 <AnMaster> so borrow/return/try to borrow?
13:29:54 <fizzie> The library is lending the book to you; you are borrowing the book from the library.
13:29:59 <ais523> whereas the person borrows
13:30:08 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
13:30:10 <fizzie> Finnish just uses the same word "lainata" for both.
13:30:59 <ais523> either that or pay lots of fines
13:32:00 <fizzie> If you say you lost the book, and apologize a lot, you might just need to pay the price of the book; that's one way people use to "buy" out-of-print books.
13:32:11 <AnMaster> "don't try to acquire a mutex you already hold"
13:32:26 <AnMaster> "don't try to borrow a book you already ????"
13:32:37 <fizzie> "Don't try to borrow a book you already have. This would confuse the librarian."
13:32:57 <fizzie> Or "possibly confuse", since it's not clear what happens.
13:33:09 <ais523> now, I so want to implement mutexes using ar
13:33:14 <ais523> but I don't know if it's thread-safe
13:33:52 <ais523> no better reason than that
13:34:20 <fizzie> It's a funny library, though; you can't make a reservation (you can just wait for someone to return the book, but then it's pure luck who gets it, the one who was waiting first has no special privilege) and there's no time limit for loans.
13:35:39 <ais523> a time limit might actually be a useful protection against dropped mutexes
13:36:00 <fizzie> ais523: And then you'd need to pay with some clock cycles if you return your book all dirty.
13:36:13 <AnMaster> err, I couldn't implement that
13:36:30 <ais523> fizzie: nah, the OS would just force you to be a bit nicer
13:37:08 <fizzie> Heh. "We're not scheduling you as often as we used to, since you got burger sauce all over number 4 when you last borrowed it."
13:39:21 <AnMaster> oh another thing, the library have every possible book
13:39:30 <AnMaster> Hilbert's library or something
13:44:15 <AnMaster> very much so considering efunge have bignum cells
13:48:02 <AnMaster> ais523, fizzie: http://rafb.net/p/zTufIM86.html
13:48:27 <AnMaster> ais523, also please point out stuff that are language mistakes
13:49:43 <fizzie> B description says "every use of L".
13:50:17 <fizzie> I'll look more closely later (or maybe you have another draft at that point already), must go buy food and stuff.
13:50:53 <ais523> AnMaster: you should so define the interaction with TRDS
13:50:58 <ais523> leaving it undefined is a cop-out
13:51:02 <ais523> anyway, I have to go to lectures now
13:51:08 <ais523> see you all in about 2 hours 20 mins or so
13:51:56 <AnMaster> "Using TRDS and ATHR in combination shall cause demons to fly out of the Funge programmer's nose
13:53:02 <AnMaster> actually I think WIND wouldn't have issues
13:53:42 <AnMaster> "Using TRDS and ATHR in combination shall cause implementation-defined demons to fly out of the Funge programmer's nose."
13:54:51 <AnMaster> that allows for someone to actually do something sensible if they want (define the demons to be none, and work on other bits)
13:55:15 <ehird> AnMaster: TRDS and ATHR together sounds awesome
13:55:19 <ehird> why would you be so hostile >:(
13:55:43 <AnMaster> ehird, since TRDS is too badly speced to be sure how it would work in combination
13:56:00 <AnMaster> and because I don't want a headache
13:56:01 <ehird> AnMaster: it would be amazing
13:56:16 <AnMaster> ehird, feel free to work out a sensible way for how they interact then, I may even use it
13:56:33 <ehird> AnMaster: will you implement it
13:56:46 <AnMaster> ATHR? Yes in efunge, not in cfunge
13:56:51 <ehird> TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS
13:56:59 <ehird> the people have spoken
13:57:01 <ehird> and they want TRDS
13:57:48 <AnMaster> ehird, so you want to maintain it as a patch set against cfunge or efugne?
13:58:01 <ehird> no, the people want you to implement trds
13:58:31 <AnMaster> you may want it, it won't happen
13:58:51 <AnMaster> but since both are open source, feel free to do it yourself
13:59:26 <oklopol> i want you to implement trds too
13:59:37 <ehird> 200% of your user base
13:59:54 <AnMaster> ehird, neither of you use cfunge or efunge
14:00:02 <ehird> AnMaster: no, but only 1 person uses cfunge
14:00:08 <ehird> therefore two people are 200% of your userbase
14:00:12 <ehird> also 0 people use efunge
14:00:31 <AnMaster> ehird, actually ais523 use it, I use it, and I know someone else who do so. + fizzie use it sometimes
14:00:47 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes, efunge haven't had a release yet
14:01:29 <AnMaster> ehird, it still lacks many features, such as i and o
14:02:08 <oklopol> i might use cfunge if i used befunge
14:02:27 <AnMaster> oklopol, I still won't implement TRDS :P
14:02:49 <AnMaster> oklopol, do you actually know how messy TRDS is?
14:02:51 <AnMaster> http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcfunge2_manual.html#TRDS
14:03:20 <ais523> well, I'm in my lecture now
14:03:20 <ais523> and it's making no sense
14:03:20 <ais523> so although I can't really concentrate on the conversation here
14:03:20 <ais523> it makes more sense than trying to understand the lecture
14:03:45 <ais523> according to the syllabus it's about management
14:03:51 <AnMaster> Using TRDS and ATHR in combination shall cause implementation-defined demons to
14:03:51 <AnMaster> fly out of the Funge programmer's nose.
14:04:13 <ais523> it's actually a lecturer spending several hours talking about "customers"
14:04:23 <ais523> someone just complained that that was marketing
14:04:28 <ais523> and the lecturer asked what marketing was
14:04:37 <ais523> this is going to be a long 11 weeks...
14:04:41 <ehird> "what's marketing?"
14:04:52 <ehird> i cannot believe that
14:04:56 <ehird> i knew what marketing meant when i was 5.
14:04:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I hope he forgot ~ or something...
14:05:00 <ais523> but I'm not sure if it was rhetorical or not
14:05:18 <ehird> yeah i was thinking "rhetorical"
14:05:23 <ehird> either way thats a shitty rhetorical question
14:05:34 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway my point was... if you want sensible TRDS/ATHR interaction then you got to define it, since I can't figure that out.
14:05:51 <ais523> "How would you create Value Add thorugh a Internal Customer audit on yourself ?"
14:06:03 <AnMaster> hehe i read that as "Intercal"
14:06:07 <ehird> ais523: sounds like scientology
14:06:09 <ais523> (literal from the notes I've just been given, except the typo in through is mine, the other typos were the lecturer's though)
14:06:24 <ehird> ask him how his thetans are doing
14:06:39 <ais523> ok, this one's even more Scientologic:
14:06:41 <Asztal> managers abuse language :(
14:07:11 <ais523> "No Cynicism. Creativity, dreams, imagination Fantatical attention to consistency and detail Preservation and control of the xxxxx magic."
14:07:20 <ais523> ok, and I didn't typo in that, the typos are the lecturer's again
14:07:28 <ais523> and the xxxxx makes no sense in that context
14:07:32 <ehird> i am serious, that looks exactly like one of those sekrit scientology journal things i pirated
14:07:48 <fizzie> A friend-of-a-friend here got a scientology anti-psychiatry pamphlet. I didn't know they were doing that sort of thing in Finland.
14:07:49 <oklopol> ais523: what university were you at again
14:08:04 <ais523> but really, all management courses are like this
14:08:11 <ehird> fizzie: they do that thing -everywhere-
14:08:20 <ais523> and the IEEE insists that engineering courses are 1/12 management courses, I have no idea why
14:08:32 <ehird> stupid closed standard bodies
14:08:42 <ais523> the management lecturer last year was actually quite good though, he tought me accounting and company law
14:08:46 <ais523> so more business than management
14:08:54 <fizzie> Yes, but I get regular religious nonsense reasonably often, but never scientology stuff. It's strange.
14:09:45 <ais523> wow, I just realised that I have enough accumulated pass marks that I can fail this module and still get a first, in theory
14:09:55 <ais523> not that I really want to have to do that, but it's nice to have a safety valve
14:11:24 <AnMaster> ais523, still, if you think TRDS + ATHR should be well defined you better write that section.
14:12:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, async threads for Funge
14:13:26 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/bQS3gx65.html
14:19:33 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/bQS3gx65.html
14:19:52 <ais523> it seems this lecture theatre has a dodgy router
14:21:15 <ais523> hmm... the lecturer's explained that sentence with the xxxxx in
14:21:23 <ais523> apparently we were supposed to guess that xxxxx=Disney
14:21:30 <ais523> hmm... the sentence still doesn't make much sense though
14:22:40 <AnMaster> checking for i686-pc-linux-gnu-ar... no
14:23:00 <ais523> did it come up with the right answer, though?
14:23:01 <AnMaster> ais523, it was from gcc configure
14:23:11 <ais523> ah, that would explain it
14:23:18 <AnMaster> checking for i686-pc-linux-gnu-ld... no
14:23:20 <ais523> gcc configure does the same sort of stupid tricks as ick configure
14:23:25 <ais523> that's why I thought it was the same thing to start with
14:23:29 <AnMaster> ais523, well I'm building an llvm gcc
14:23:31 <ais523> except gcc configure is mostly hand-coded
14:23:49 <ais523> whereas ick's uses macros and some stupid semi-recursion stuff
14:24:09 <AnMaster> checking for i686-pc-linux-gnu-ld... no
14:24:23 <ais523> AnMaster: what are your build, host and target for that build?
14:24:37 <AnMaster> anmaster@phoenix ~/llvm/gcc-build $ ../llvm-gcc/configure --prefix=/home/anmaster/local/llvm --program-prefix=llvm- --enable-llvm=/home/anmaster/local/llvm --with-arch=pentium3 --with-tune=pentium3 --disable-libgcj --enable-libmudflap --enable-nls --enable-__cxa_atexit --disable-multilib --enable-clocale=gnu --enable-languages=c,c++
14:24:39 <ais523> gcc has to check all 3 of them
14:24:52 <ais523> ick cares about build and host, but target you do using CC at runtime
14:25:13 <AnMaster> ais523, well see the command line
14:25:46 <ais523> unfortunately the build/host/target are probably hardcoded there
14:25:51 <ais523> or at least one of them is and probably 2
14:26:20 <ais523> AnMaster: typo in F: singal should be signal
14:26:26 <ais523> although singal is a nice word too
14:26:32 <ais523> despite not meaning anything
14:26:50 <ais523> hmm... maybe it means something I don't know, then
14:27:04 <AnMaster> "Singal (Hangeul: 신갈) is an area of Yongin, in Gyeonggi Province, South Korea. It is near two major expressways and a large reservoir by the ..."
14:27:12 <ais523> first comma in B should probably be a semicolon
14:27:12 <AnMaster> continual, everlasting, continuous
14:27:35 <fizzie> "Old English", though.
14:27:51 <fizzie> WordNet doesn't know singal, but it's not that comprehensive anyway.
14:28:11 <ais523> well I didn't know it and I'm a native speaker
14:28:33 <fizzie> You're not a native speaker of Old English, obviously.
14:29:11 <ais523> also, R looks self-contradictory
14:29:15 <ais523> you define an error condition
14:29:19 <ais523> but then state "never reflects"
14:30:17 <ais523> in S, the first instance of "threads" should be "thread", and "it's" should be "its"
14:30:33 <AnMaster> ais523, ok you are right about R
14:31:30 <AnMaster> "Reflects on returning a book you don't have. Otherwise never reflects."
14:33:20 <fizzie> Note that pthread_mutex_unlock won't error out on unlocking someone else's mutex unless you use an error-checking (instead of a fast/recursive mutex) mutex. Of course you can define it, and it's arguably better that way.
14:33:53 <ais523> well, I suppose using fast mutexes is more C-like
14:34:08 <ais523> don't worry about error conditions, just make sure the prorgammer never lets errors happen
14:34:32 <ais523> slows down the programmer but speeds up the program, unless you have a /very/ good optimiser
14:35:19 <fizzie> Yes, it's just that B is defined in the "easy to implement even without error-checking mutexes" way, so for consistency's sake...
14:35:50 <fizzie> I don't think people write performance-critical Funge-98 code that much, though.
14:36:30 <ais523> AnMaster: "implementation defined and does not need to be the same on every run, or even for every use of B during a run" can be abbreviated to "unspecified" if you're using C-standard terminology
14:37:05 <ais523> although the original is possibly clearer
14:38:17 <ais523> in the notes section, "The library have all books" should be "The library has all books"
14:41:50 <ais523> the lecturer is trying to teach us about S.M.A.R.T.
14:42:09 <ais523> which is one of the things that everyone most hated about targets and such in my secondary school
14:42:14 <ais523> not that the whole system made any sense
14:42:26 <ais523> ehird: did they teach you that too, or did you escape from it?
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14:42:42 <ehird> ais523: hm what where
14:42:44 <ehird> i haven't been paying attention
14:43:01 <ais523> ehird: did they try to teach you about SMART targets in secondary school?
14:43:11 <ehird> if they did i do not recall
14:44:17 <AnMaster> <ais523> well, I suppose using fast mutexes is more C-like <-- ?
14:44:43 <AnMaster> so it should be undefined instead?
14:45:45 <AnMaster> ais523, S.M.A.R.T.? As in harddisks?
14:48:54 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from ais523: 0.70 second(s)
14:49:05 <ais523> it's a management acronym
14:49:36 <ais523> Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic, Time-related
14:49:59 <ais523> it's the managementese for what are good properties for targets to have
14:50:18 <ais523> except it leads to lots of arguments, such as what is the difference between achieveable and realistic anyway
14:50:33 <ais523> AnMaster: what it means in practice is that the targets you set have to have time limits
14:50:41 <ais523> but that isn't what time-related actually means
14:50:58 <ehird> ais523: you know what i hate? I hate internet-friends who take programming courses and ask me things. "can you decompile xml files" / "what" / "is it possible." "to decompile." "compiled xml files."
14:50:59 <ais523> AnMaster: that's the in-practice meaning, yes
14:51:22 <AnMaster> ehird, compiled xml files make no sense...
14:51:33 <ehird> AnMaster: congratulations, you got what i was saying
14:51:41 <ehird> i think he means binary xml file thingies
14:51:55 <ais523> ah yes, that reminds me of another weirdness about VHDL
14:52:04 <ais523> once you've finally translated it into an idiomatic form, and compiled it
14:52:14 <ais523> it's usual to decompile the output and interpret it to check that it still works
14:52:21 <AnMaster> binary xml files? You mean like encoded as ascii code points in stored in a binary file?
14:52:44 <ehird> there's such a thing
14:52:56 <ais523> would be the obvious solution
14:53:12 <ais523> hmm... I wonder if there is an official binary serialisation of XML?
14:53:25 <ais523> that wouldn't surprise me, even though it ought ot
14:53:26 <AnMaster> ais523, also for that VHDL issue it sounds like the compilers are horribly buggy
14:53:36 <ais523> AnMaster: no, the issue is that RL is horribly buggy
14:53:52 <ais523> once you've compiled into hardware, it works out how long all the wires are and so on
14:54:05 <AnMaster> as for "binary serialisation of XML", that makes no sense..
14:54:06 <ais523> and the decompiled version allows for the behaviour of the wires and such
14:54:28 <ais523> so for instance if two things happen at the same time in your source, in practice they'll normally happen at slightly different times in RL
14:54:33 <ais523> and the decompiled version will get that right
14:55:34 <ais523> hmm... your ATHR needs a "security considerations" section
14:55:38 <ais523> just because RFCs always have those
14:56:14 <ais523> wow, I just had an idea
14:56:22 <ais523> I think I might know how to get Feather to work...
14:56:47 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, I considered "ATHR and the impacts on modern society" section with the text "Not a lot." or something like that...
14:57:08 <ais523> although it's impossible to compare functions, it is possible to see if one function contains a copy of another
14:57:20 <ais523> and in a lang like Unlambda, the only way to find out what a function does is to run it
14:57:36 <ais523> and functions are generally modified by putting wrappers around them, that's the only thing you can do really
14:58:05 <AnMaster> ais523, also what would i put in security considerations? "Doesn't allow any additional external IO"?
14:58:17 <ais523> hmm... possibility for fork-bombs, maybe
14:58:27 <AnMaster> because I think ATHR would be safe according to cfunge's sandbox mode requirements
14:58:37 <ais523> could you fork-bomb with it?
14:58:43 <oklopol> ais523: what does it help if you know a function contains another?
14:58:46 <AnMaster> ais523, well thread bomb I guess...
14:58:55 <ais523> oklopol: the problem is to tell if two things are effectively the same
14:59:12 <AnMaster> ais523, also I saw a new horrible fingerprint in rc/funge, "FORK"
14:59:13 <ais523> the question is "what in the new universe corresponds to X in the old universe" after a retroactive modification
14:59:15 <AnMaster> http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcfunge2_manual.html#FORK
14:59:32 <AnMaster> and it is impossible to say what that actually does
14:59:42 <ais523> and the answer is "whatever has the same call tree of absolute function addresses, possibly with extra elements inserted"
15:00:05 <oklopol> ais523: sorry, i confused feather with your other unimplementable language
15:00:12 <oklopol> the name of which i forgot again
15:00:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, feather is implementable isn't it?
15:00:20 <ais523> Feather is at least in theory implementable, I think
15:00:26 <ais523> just I haven't figured out how yet
15:00:31 <ais523> I want to implement it to prove it's possible
15:00:34 <ais523> and then so I can program in it
15:00:58 <oklopol> proud is implementable too, just not well, it's a fuzzy issue
15:01:04 <AnMaster> ais523, should I attribute you with your nick or real name?
15:01:22 <ais523> I don't mind, "Alex Smith" would probably fit in best there given the other names
15:01:55 <ehird> but what about the wikipedia stalker-murderers
15:02:47 <ais523> well, my nick isn't on there, is it?
15:02:49 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway if implemented in erlang you effectively have no issue with fork bombs, erlang threads are very green. I think a newly created thread uses something like around 200-300 machine words of memory
15:03:36 <ais523> AnMaster: that just means that the fork bomb can become really big before you notice it
15:04:09 <AnMaster> ais523, well anyone sane would have proper ulimits set up
15:04:35 <oklopol> ais523: can you elaborate on why it helps that we can see whether a function contains another?
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15:08:28 <ais523> oklopol: well, basically, suppose you retroactively modify the program
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15:08:34 <AnMaster> ais523, btw how would ick interact with ATHR ;)
15:08:36 <ais523> the program will then rerun up to the point where you changed it
15:08:41 <AnMaster> not that I plan to implement it in cfunge
15:08:50 <ais523> AnMaster: if there was more than one thread at the end of any command, it would go crazy
15:09:16 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway that leaves the TRDS issue.
15:09:21 <ais523> oklopol: anyway, you need to avoid timeloops
15:09:24 <AnMaster> which I delegate to you ais523
15:09:31 <ais523> hmm... /me imagines ick + TRDS
15:09:59 <ais523> actually, ick + TRDS aren't fundamentally incompatible, but I can't figure out what the result would be
15:10:23 <AnMaster> ais523, and for ATHR and TRDS?
15:10:26 <ais523> oklopol: so, once you reach the command that did the retroactive modification, it shouldn't retroactively modify the second time round
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15:10:48 <ais523> AnMaster: I was joking, really, although I suspect the interaction would be the same as t + TRDS (i.e. only Deewiant understands it)
15:11:12 <AnMaster> ais523, I suspect it would be even messier
15:11:17 <ais523> oklopol: the problem is: determine when you reach that command, given that the program has changed in the meantime
15:11:40 <ais523> and I've come to the answer by considering what the likely modifications are
15:11:55 <ais523> I think I'll define a set of "sane" retroactive modifications that the standard library can cope with
15:12:21 <ais523> insane retroactive modifications are allowed to, but if you do them it's your responsibility to make sure the program doesn't timeloop or do other crazy pimetaradoxical things
15:12:31 <AnMaster> ais523, make each command have an GUID that never changes during a run?
15:12:42 <ais523> I thought of that too, but it doesn't help
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15:12:53 <ais523> because how do you tell it's the same command if the source changes, or the syntax of the lang changes
15:12:57 <ais523> and lambdas break it really badly
15:13:53 <ais523> the problem is to come up with something GUID-like that can cope with changes in the nature of the language
15:14:09 <ais523> and looking for call stacks with elements inserted seems to be the solution
15:14:17 <ais523> incidentally, the same problem comes up in handling I/O
15:14:45 <ais523> basically, the way I think Feather will do it is that input and output are tagged with their /purpose/
15:14:54 <ais523> and purposes are meant to be stable
15:14:56 <AnMaster> ais523, could you make feather become befunge?
15:15:12 <ais523> bootstrapping might be hard though
15:15:21 <ais523> as at some point the program would need to be a Feather/Befunge polyglot
15:15:25 <oklopol> i'll read, was watching a finnish racist boast about getting rid of foreigners on youtube
15:15:30 <AnMaster> ais523, care to give a short example program to show what the syntax looks like?
15:15:43 * oklopol likes watching nutjobs preach
15:15:55 <ais523> well, modulo the fact that I haven't come up with any examples yet, and the syntax keeps changing every now and then as I work out what the language features
15:16:09 <ais523> but after you've imported the standard library, it would be something like this:
15:17:21 <ais523> ^stdlib outputwrapper #sayhello [^stdlib output] [^stdlib stdout] "Hello, world!"
15:17:31 <ais523> that's not a very typical example though
15:17:49 <AnMaster> ais523, so how would you change the syntax? What does that bit look like?
15:17:53 <ais523> also, the # isn't strictly necessary, as curried functions don't have a sayhello message
15:18:33 <ais523> hmm... as a trivial example, I'll consider a modification to the language which makes a % at the start of the program comment out the entire program
15:19:07 <ais523> this could take a while to write, wait a while...
15:19:47 <oklopol> at some point, i considered a string from a marker to the end of the program for oklotalk
15:19:57 <oklopol> so you wouldn't need to worry at all about the contents of the string
15:20:16 <oklopol> and it'd be used by making an interpreter in the beginning of the program, then running the string
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15:21:27 <oklopol> oklotalk has lots of parsing features (planned that is), so it would be ideal for that sorta thing
15:22:55 <ais523> ^parser parse be [[old|[str|str head = '%' if [x|] old]] [^parser parse]]
15:23:15 <ais523> and that be could be become to make the change apply from now on, rather than retroactively
15:24:01 <ais523> also, most of the identifiers will probably end up different
15:24:05 <ais523> and may end up in different places too
15:24:15 <AnMaster> ais523, how does that match work
15:24:31 <ais523> and that's assuming that auto-unboxing and such have already been implemented, they'll be in the standard library though
15:24:44 <ais523> AnMaster: well, parse takes a string as input and returns a function as output
15:25:07 <ais523> so the new parser is defined in terms of the old one
15:25:27 <ais523> it compares [str head] (the square brackets are like parens) with '%'
15:25:31 <ais523> by telling it to compare itself with '%'
15:25:40 <ais523> that returns a boolean object
15:25:57 <ais523> its if method returns its first arg if it's true or its second arg if it's false
15:26:04 <AnMaster> ais523, could feather become any other language?
15:26:08 <ais523> one of those is a NOP whatever its argument
15:26:11 <ais523> and the other is the old parser
15:26:25 <ais523> it would need to get input from somewhere, though
15:26:29 <ais523> as in, the actual program to run
15:26:40 <AnMaster> ais523, so what if you made it C, how would it access mmap() and such?
15:26:41 <ais523> unless you wrote the program as a Feather/Befunge polyglot from the start, which could be fun
15:26:52 <ais523> AnMaster: you'd have to implement them in Feather
15:27:11 <ais523> I/O and standard library and such couldn't be in part of the becomed language unless they were in Feather's stdlib to start with
15:27:14 <ais523> file I/O probably would be though
15:28:09 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway what does the ^ mean?
15:28:18 <ais523> AnMaster: it refers to "this object"
15:28:32 <ais523> there are certain properties like stdlib that every object has
15:28:37 <GregorR> Hahahaha, you've inversed F# ;)
15:28:39 <ais523> so you can access them from anywhere
15:28:42 <AnMaster> ais523, if you could have that on the first line as first char, the befunge/feather polygot would be easy
15:28:57 <ais523> more to the point, it's trivial to get a [ on first line as first char
15:29:05 <ais523> and that also would make Befunge/Feather an easy polyglot
15:29:18 <ais523> anyway, I think ^ is the right character
15:29:26 <AnMaster> how would it handle the befunge program overwriting parts of the feather code?
15:29:28 <ais523> but what I actually wanted is whatever Smalltalk uses in that sort of context
15:29:41 <ais523> AnMaster: it wouldn't care, at the time the Befunge program ran the Feather code would no longer exist
15:29:48 <ais523> except as the Befunge interp
15:30:08 <ais523> if Feather modified itself into Befunge itself, you couldn't modify it back as Befunge has no command to retroactively change itself into Feather
15:30:22 <ais523> although you could modify it into a Befunge-like lang that could change back, maybe have it in a fingerprint...
15:30:38 <AnMaster> ais523, it could have that as a fingerprint or the same way that ick uses the middot
15:30:42 <ais523> however, modifying Feather into Befunge definitely qualifies as an insane change
15:31:00 <AnMaster> ais523, and yeah. What about changing it into scheme?
15:31:02 <ais523> so if you want stdlib to work after that, you're on your own
15:31:21 <ais523> likewise for most langs
15:31:35 <ais523> the rule for a sane Feather parser change is that in addition to the other requirements to be sane, it has to be backwards-compatible
15:31:52 <ais523> i.e. all legal programs under the old parser do the same thing, or the same thing and additional things, under the new parser
15:32:00 <AnMaster> ais523, so what about become instead of be?
15:32:01 <ais523> for instance, modifying the lang to make it run under a debugger is sane
15:32:05 <ais523> AnMaster: become is always sane
15:32:07 <AnMaster> didn't you say that worked around the issue
15:32:20 <ais523> become on the parser would have no effect until you tried to parse something, though
15:32:30 <ais523> as at that point you've already parsed your original program
15:32:44 <ais523> whereas be will modify the parser before it parsed your original program, that's what makes it a lot less sane
15:36:01 <AnMaster> ais523, what about one affecting every line of come from after this line?
15:36:17 <ais523> "come from" is a bit hard to define in a functional lang
15:38:11 <ais523> AnMaster: the entire program is parsed first then run
15:38:45 <ais523> you'd use be, but cause the parser to act the same way for earlier code
15:38:46 <AnMaster> ais523, that could he the sane way to protect syslib?
15:38:50 <ais523> ofc you have to define "earlier" somehow
15:38:54 <ais523> and yes, that would be sane
15:39:15 <AnMaster> define "earlier" as before some special marker
15:39:33 <ais523> the code is only linear in source form
15:39:38 <ais523> once it's a function, before has less of a meaning
15:39:43 <ais523> I'm sure it would be possible, though
15:40:04 <ais523> annotate all functions with the position in the source code they were generated from, for instance
15:40:10 <AnMaster> <ais523> the code is only linear in source form
15:40:15 <AnMaster> then what about making it into cat?
15:41:36 <ais523> well, cat would be trivial
15:41:54 <ais523> hmm... you could do a Feather quine by causing the parser to output its input rather than parsing it, retroactively
15:44:39 <AnMaster> ais523, then the source needs to be in linear form doesn't it?
15:44:50 <ais523> you know what the source code is
15:44:54 <ais523> but it's like any other compiled lang
15:44:58 <ais523> you have the source, and the executable
15:45:10 <ais523> in Feather, though, the executable can modify the source and it changes accordingly, whilst still running
15:45:41 <ais523> hmm... lazy parsing might be useful in Feather, not necessary, but nice
15:45:48 <ais523> maybe I'll make stdlib retroactively add it
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15:47:06 <AnMaster> ais523, you could add it from within feather anyway ;P
15:47:21 <ais523> this is simply a discussion about what would be useful in the stdlib
15:47:32 <ais523> well, what changes the stdlib makes at the start of any program
15:47:47 <ais523> the nature of any Feather interp is that it has to be written entirely in Feather
15:47:56 <ais523> the nature of RL is that they have to be written in something else to start it off
15:48:18 <ais523> so you start off with two versions of the same interp, one in Feather, one in some other lang, which both do exactly the same thing
15:49:02 <ais523> that seems like a better bet than hoping a Feather interp will spontaneously come into existence, great as that would be
15:49:15 <ais523> once Feather is running, it's under the impression that there are an infinite number of layers of Feather interps under it
15:49:29 <ais523> because if you ever go down far enough that you reach the bottom, you can retroactively add more underneath
15:50:04 <ais523> however you can, of course, expose the mechanism for doing that so it doesn't fool if you want to
15:57:02 <ais523> leaving for about 20 mins, going to a different Internet connection
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16:37:28 <AnMaster> ais523, hm should I make TRDS interaction undefined or leave it as the demons bit?
16:37:42 <AnMaster> consider I plan to let Mike Riley see this standard
16:37:42 <ais523> just leave it as demons
16:38:01 <ais523> every C programmer ought to know what that means anyway
16:38:11 <ais523> and it wouldn't be the first lang with a physically unimplementable spec
16:38:29 <AnMaster> ais523, oh no, it is implementable
16:38:31 <ais523> (HOMESPRING requires the interpreter to produce a temporal paradox upon encountering the character string . .)
16:38:37 <AnMaster> "Using TRDS and ATHR in combination shall cause implementation-defined demons to
16:38:37 <AnMaster> fly out of the Funge programmer's nose."
16:38:46 <AnMaster> the key is "implementation-defined" demons
16:38:53 <AnMaster> you could just define it to NULL
16:39:01 <ais523> is it an implementation-defined nose too?
16:39:16 <AnMaster> ais523, no but that wouldn't be needed, would it?
16:39:34 <ais523> the problem is to get null pointers out of the programmer's nose
16:39:40 <AnMaster> just define those demons to "no demons" then?
16:39:42 <ais523> that might not be trivial, they might not have a nose for instance
16:40:03 <AnMaster> for (i=0; i < 0; i++) { release_demon(&nose); }
16:40:21 <ais523> Slereah_: why the big sad left-handed smiley?
16:40:26 <AnMaster> ais523, any sane compiler would optimise that away
16:40:56 <ais523> hmm... how many languages let you declare but not define a function if you never use it?
16:41:04 <ais523> I wonder which others?
16:41:22 <AnMaster> ais523, well that wouldn't help here
16:41:58 <ais523> gcc would leave no references to release_demon in the object file
16:42:03 <ais523> if you were optimising
16:42:14 <ais523> so you wouldn't get the link fail that you normally get for referencing a non-existent function
16:42:27 <AnMaster> ais523, the variable nose could be an issue
16:42:30 <ais523> &nose would have to mean something, but I suppose nose could just be an extern variable...
16:42:33 <AnMaster> I guess you have to have a static variable
16:42:49 <AnMaster> for (i=0; i < 0; i++) { release_demon_in_nose(); }
16:43:02 <AnMaster> after all since that is all about side effects anyway
16:44:40 <ais523> well, it can be a static variable in a non-existent function
16:47:34 <AnMaster> hm I read about solving sodoku using the debian package manager's dependency resolution stuff... But what about using make?
16:48:01 <ais523> I'd be surprised if it was a lower computational class than dpkg
16:48:34 <ais523> I don't know, I don't see why it would be though
16:48:38 <ais523> whereas TC make makes sense
16:48:56 <AnMaster> also it is non-trivial to answer that for make. Since there are so many make dialects
16:49:15 <AnMaster> pmake and gnu make are the most common ones probably
16:52:48 <AnMaster> ais523, in ick, what is "arrgghh.o"?
16:52:59 <ais523> it handles command line arguments for generated programs
16:53:06 <ais523> deals with +wimpmode, +instapipe, and so on
16:53:18 <AnMaster> * SYNOPSIS: ick_parseargs(argc,argv)
16:53:48 <ais523> ok, presumably it was called parseargs.c before it was renamed to have a funky ick-name
16:53:57 <ais523> that must have been ages ago, probably I could find it in the changelog if I looked
16:54:09 <ais523> and the ick_ prefix is because I put ick_prefixes on everything
16:54:17 <ais523> when implementing the FFI
16:54:48 <ais523> that is, genuinely, a changelog
16:55:01 <ais523> the rename won't be there
16:55:07 <ais523> but the implementation of +wimpmode will be
16:55:29 <AnMaster> <ais523> that must have been ages ago, probably I could find it in the changelog if I looked
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17:53:52 <AnMaster> ais523, well anyway I will begin messing with input buffering in efunge to make it compatible with ATHR. Implementing ATHR will take some time
17:54:01 <AnMaster> since I don't have a lot of that currently
17:54:11 <ais523> ah, you're planning to actually implement it?
17:54:55 <AnMaster> so don't worry about it messing up ick
17:55:12 <AnMaster> ais523, I suspect doing it in C would be a pain anyway
17:55:35 <AnMaster> ais523, didn't you think I would implement it?!
17:56:11 <ais523> well, there are a lot of random lang ideas which are thrown around here and then not implemented
17:56:20 <AnMaster> ais523, of course TRDS won't ever be supported
17:56:39 <ais523> AnMaster: not even if you write featherfunge some day?
17:56:42 <ais523> it would probably be trivial in that
17:57:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I consider that a very hypothetical question.
17:57:21 <AnMaster> 1) There is no working Feather yet
17:57:24 <ais523> that involves having a working Feather first
17:57:32 <ais523> then you being motivated to write a Funge interp in it
17:57:38 <AnMaster> 2) I never said I would write a feather funge indeed
17:58:36 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway are there any languages other than erlang where ATHR would be reasonably easy to implement?
17:58:57 <AnMaster> ais523, "ATHR may not be implemented as synchronous by lazy programmers writing a
17:58:57 <AnMaster> Funge-implementation. That is considered very bad style. ATHR should be truly
17:59:11 <ehird> the style police will kill you
17:59:30 <AnMaster> ais523, does it have something async enough?
17:59:36 <ehird> AnMaster: how about "my language DOES NOT SUPPORT truly asynchronous threads, shut up and let me implement it for compatibility"
17:59:37 <ais523> it has synchronous multithreading in theory, but it's easier to treat it as asynch rather than trying to figure out how the synchrony works
17:59:55 <ehird> also "truly asynchronous threads" are impossible on a single-core system.
18:00:07 <AnMaster> ehird, well I was planning distributed
18:00:16 <ais523> it has ONCE/AGAIN and ABSTAIN/REINSTATE as its atomic primitives
18:00:26 <ehird> AnMaster: let people implement it however.
18:00:41 <ais523> (actually all commands are atomic in the current implementation, but ONCE/AGAIN/ABSTAIN/REINSTATE are the only keywords for which atomicity matters)
18:00:50 <AnMaster> ehird, Uf you feel offended you may have a better wording? I just want discourage it being implemented the same way as t by lazy programmers
18:01:01 <ehird> AnMaster: it won't be...
18:01:05 <ehird> because the whole purpose is not being t
18:01:08 <ehird> so just remove the paragraph
18:01:12 <ehird> plus, its very self-evident from reading it
18:01:15 <AnMaster> ehird, well Deewiant seemed to suggest doing it that way
18:01:18 <ais523> ehird: actually, I'd probably lazily implement it t-style
18:01:22 <ais523> if I just wanted to get something working
18:01:33 <ais523> maybe I'd deliberately skip steps every now and then at random
18:01:40 <ais523> to make it actually asynchronous
18:01:47 <ehird> there's nothing wrong with that.
18:01:58 <ais523> just like all my HQ9+ interps have an accumulator, even though there's no way to tell from inside the program that it's there
18:04:01 <Asztal> they should have a -O flag :)
18:04:42 <ais523> Asztal: that should store the accumulator in a register, for faster access
18:06:24 <Asztal> and possibly interleave consecutuve
18:11:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: huh? when did I say that
18:15:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it was when discussing MVRS and ATHR
18:15:52 <AnMaster> okt 16 13:08:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but we wanted the option of sync vs. async
18:16:05 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:16:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, while you didn't say it straight out, what you said seemed to imply you wanted sync ATHR
18:16:32 <AnMaster> okt 16 13:03:36 <Deewiant> right, but what would ATHRs containing MVRSs even be?
18:16:34 <Deewiant> no, that was wholly about MVRS
18:16:42 <Deewiant> that latter was just me not understanding
18:16:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, them I'm sorry is if I misunderstood
18:17:15 <Deewiant> I'm sorry I was misunderstood :-P
18:17:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway MVRS is too badly specced to be sure, So I'm going to contact Riley with the spec when I worked out the output bit and try to fix that
18:18:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also did you see the last version where "mutex" have become "book"?
18:18:13 <Deewiant> MVRS is much less than it was supposed to be
18:18:30 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/BETCqd29.html
18:18:33 <Deewiant> and no, but I didn't really read through the earlier ATHR specs in detail either :-P
18:18:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway mutexes are now books in a library :P
18:19:15 <Deewiant> sounds to me like you've had too much to do with INTERCAL
18:19:24 <ais523> yes, it's a very INTERCAL-like analogy
18:19:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I added the security considerations there
18:19:47 <ais523> I'll have a look at them
18:19:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and what is wrong with that?
18:20:13 <Deewiant> nothing really, just making an observation :-P
18:20:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "too much" often indicates "more than what is a good idea" implying something is wrong
18:21:06 <Deewiant> well, having anything to do with INTERCAL is arguably a bad idea ;-)
18:21:11 <ais523> any amount is too much to do with INTERCAL, probably
18:26:49 <ais523> AnMaster: we both said much the same thing, that was what the snap was about
18:26:57 <ais523> it's an idiom that comes from a children's game
18:27:04 <ais523> people take turns revealing cards from the top of a deck
18:27:14 <ais523> when two the same in a row are revealed, the first person to say "Snap!" wins
18:27:20 <ais523> so it's all about reactions, really
18:27:34 <ais523> there are also various rules about how you can reveal the cards, as an anti-cheating measure
18:27:46 <ais523> (to prevent people looking at the cards before other people can see them)
18:30:26 <AnMaster> ais523, ehird Deewiant, do you like the new top section better in http://rafb.net/p/18vBZT98.html
18:31:02 <ehird> it still says DRAFT
18:31:03 <ais523> and the security consideration too
18:31:12 <ehird> +!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!++!DRAFT!+
18:31:13 <AnMaster> ehird, of course, because it is still a draft
18:31:24 <ehird> and we all know that
18:31:27 <AnMaster> that is why there is a TODO comment in the IO section
18:31:34 <ais523> who is Heikki Kallasjoki, btw?
18:31:35 <ehird> we wouldn't take some random pastebin post as something we should go implement right now
18:31:39 <ehird> it's hilariously over the top
18:32:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I believe I gave my reasons for it yesterday
18:32:07 <ehird> AnMaster: not any good ones
18:32:14 <ais523> AnMaster: what were the reasons again?
18:33:17 <AnMaster> ais523, that if nothing else, working with befunge programmers have taught me that it is better to over-specify and try to be extra clear (not sure if that is the right English word)...
18:33:33 <AnMaster> Because someone will surely interpret anything you didn't state in a way you didn't intent
18:33:43 <ais523> are Befunge programs generally sloppy and ambiguous?
18:34:11 <AnMaster> ais523, no, but considering all the disputes about what fingerprint specs, or even the funge-98 spec actually means...
18:34:21 <ehird> thats because they're both written rubbishly
18:34:24 <AnMaster> even for some cats eye fingerprints...
18:34:26 <ehird> doesn't mean you should go so over the top
18:34:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I believe the English idiom is "better safe than sorry"
18:34:57 <ais523> also, OVERENGINEERING is FUN
18:35:08 <AnMaster> ais523, well yeah but only on school assignments
18:35:12 <ehird> not when AnMaster is being serious
18:35:31 <AnMaster> ehird, You just fail at meta-meta-meta-humor :P
18:37:46 <ehird> AnMaster: It'd help if it was funny
18:37:59 <ais523> ehird: actually it's funnier because it's serious
18:38:07 <ais523> and AnMaster: one too many metas I think, unless I'm missing something
18:38:08 <ehird> i disagree totally
18:39:39 <AnMaster> ais523, actually I think I may have forgot a meta
18:42:55 <AnMaster> also you can have ATHR without having t.
18:59:24 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:00:49 <oerjan> <AnMaster> please please don't let this become sort of channel in-joke
19:01:06 <oerjan> also, DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT
19:01:39 -!- ais523 has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | This channel is a !! DRAFT !! DRAFT !! DRAFT !! DRAFT !!.
19:05:53 <ehird> this channel is daft, more like
19:06:10 <oerjan> and has a lot of drift
19:08:31 * oerjan writes it up in case Slereah_ ever tries to run for president
19:09:17 <Slereah_> THIS IS A MUDSLINGING CAMPAIGN DESIGNED TO SULLY MY GOOD NAME
19:10:15 * ais523 was amused at all the focus on Joe the Plumber, when he seems to be some sort of richish entrepreneur, not the sort of typical American at all
19:10:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "BAD: i should have pushed (90, 16) as Vb", why is it so hard to output what it pushed instead? :/
19:10:45 <Slereah_> Is he a real hardworking American?
19:10:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: because doing that requires a lot more code and it's possible that it didn't even push anything
19:13:26 <oerjan> Slereah_: a beer reporter, says google
19:14:56 <oerjan> depends how bad the beer is
19:15:16 <oerjan> but face it, there's a beer market out there
19:15:39 <Slereah_> http://www.boxingdaily.co.uk/wp-content/img/notasixer.JPG
19:15:45 <Slereah_> This is apparently Joe Sixpack
19:16:17 <Slereah_> http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2007/11/27halloween.jpg
19:20:49 <ehird> he either loves nomic
19:21:26 <Slereah_> Can a man with such a moustache really hate America?
19:21:43 <Slereah_> He also has arms that bear arms
19:22:59 * pikhq doges the draft by 4Fing out
19:23:26 <AnMaster> {MaxX, MaxY} = load_binary(Binary, Fungespace, TrueX, TrueY, false, TrueX, undefined),
19:23:53 <pikhq> Exempt from military service for medical reasons.
19:23:55 <AnMaster> the two last parameters are only there because of i
19:24:09 <pikhq> Mental disability in my case, amusingly.
19:24:57 <Slereah_> pikhq : How are you mentally disabled?
19:25:46 <pikhq> If it weren't for that, I could feasibly pull off conscientous objector.
19:26:50 <pikhq> One who objects to military service for philosophical or religious reasons.
19:28:23 <ehird> How can autism get you off the draft?
19:28:27 <ehird> Well, unless it was severe autism.
19:28:36 <ehird> But you sure don't act like it :-P
19:33:11 <pikhq> The military tends to be pretty picky when it comes to mental status.
19:33:22 <pikhq> Keep in mind: they considered *Feynman* mentally unfit. ;p
19:34:31 <AnMaster> hm anyone got a program testing i in binary mode?
19:35:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it only does it in text mode iirc
19:36:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well why then doesn't it crash or report BAD? Since I don't implement the binary one yet.
19:36:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I implement i but not o btw
19:37:15 <Deewiant> and reads it back in with binary i
19:38:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: hmm, does it say anything about lack of o?
19:38:46 <AnMaster> Successfully exited MycoRand. Rerun a few times to ensure ? works.
19:38:47 <AnMaster> Opening mycotmp0.tmp... failed.
19:38:47 <AnMaster> Trying to write to it with o...
19:38:47 <AnMaster> UNDEF: writing to mycotmp0.tmp with o failed
19:38:50 <Slereah_> Why don't every draft dodgers register as consciencious objectors?
19:39:00 <Slereah_> I mean, do they check it or something?
19:39:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, y only claims to implement i
19:39:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so why it tries testing it at all and report it as UNDEF... no idea
19:39:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: because the code there is compact and changing it from BAD to UNDEF was easiest
19:40:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah, and no room to expand?
19:40:25 <Deewiant> I don't know what exactly goes where there
19:40:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but it is all relative storage offset so that is easy
19:41:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, i is relative storage offset.
19:41:10 <Deewiant> the point is that mycorand.bf is there somewhere, but not in the source code
19:41:22 <Deewiant> so I don't know where I can expand without running into mycorand.bf stuff
19:41:25 <AnMaster> so just moving everything down a few lines should work?
19:41:31 <AnMaster> if you properly use storage offset
19:42:07 <Deewiant> probably wouldn't be too hard to make it do so though
19:42:35 <oerjan> Slereah_: at least here in norway, if you register as a conscientous objector, you have to do some civilian community work instead
19:42:59 <Slereah_> Can't you also be an objector to that?
19:43:03 <Slereah_> Like saying "I'm an anarchist"
19:43:21 <oerjan> Slereah_: no. then you go to prison, i believe.
19:43:39 <Slereah_> I pay taxes! I don't need to work for you!
19:43:49 <Slereah_> Well, I don't pay taxes to Norway
19:45:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, I can avoid it for two reasons 1) Gov cuts down on military anyway all the time 2) I got asthma, so health reasons as well
19:45:21 <AnMaster> they didn't even contact me about it. heh
19:45:29 <oerjan> well (1) applies in norway too, it would be stupid to object _before_ you're called in
19:47:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: can you hg pull a Mycology from 88.114.230.95:8000?
19:47:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is the hg command?
19:47:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: if you have a repository, hg pull, if not, hg clone
19:48:05 <AnMaster> $ hg clone 88.114.230.95:8000 mycology
19:48:05 <AnMaster> abort: repository 88.114.230.95:8000 not found!
19:48:41 <AnMaster> Successfully exited MycoRand. Rerun a few times to ensure ? works.
19:48:41 <AnMaster> Opening mycotmp0.tmp... failed.
19:48:41 <AnMaster> Trying to write to it with o...
19:48:57 <AnMaster> UNDEF: writing to mycotmp0.tmp with o failed: can't test i in binary mode
19:48:57 <AnMaster> 1y says this is not Concurrent Funge-98, won't test t...
19:49:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: says explicitly that it isn't testing i in binary mode because of no o
19:49:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still tries o even when it isn't supported though ;P
19:49:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: even fitting that string in took a bit of messing about which is why I asked you to test
19:50:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you could potentially test it on mycorand.bf
19:50:57 <AnMaster> to see if it is read correctly by i when i is in binary mode
19:52:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway when ATHR goes final and efunge implemented it, will you consider implementing it in ccbi2?
19:53:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, maybe you could send those MVRS change suggestions to Riley?
19:53:45 <AnMaster> Otherwise ATHR is actually more useful since it is better defined
19:54:00 <Deewiant> I might spam him when I get around to implementing it
19:54:11 <Deewiant> but can't really be bothered right now
19:54:18 <Deewiant> so if you are bothered, better that you do it
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19:54:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also it doesn't seem to allow lacking support for trefunge/unefunge, only for befunge-93/funge-98/funge-108
19:55:58 <AnMaster> ab5tract, work in progress, clearing up issues in funge-98
19:56:43 <AnMaster> ab5tract, it depends on when I finish it and when feedback from others are finished
19:57:02 <AnMaster> ab5tract, see http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/funge108.pdf
19:57:13 <AnMaster> it replaces fingerprints with uris too
19:57:54 <ehird> ab5tract: There are no actual funge-108 implementations, likely will never be any outside of AnMaster's implementations, and there will likely not be any non-anmaster programs written in it.
19:58:02 <ehird> That is my assesment.
19:58:20 <AnMaster> ehird, well Mike Riley did show some interest in it
19:58:33 <ehird> Also, while URIs are good for...universally identifying stuff (as in... their whole purpose)...it just makes the funge code ugly because the URIs take up whole lines.
19:58:34 <AnMaster> only he didn't want to implement proper URI comparing
19:59:06 <ehird> ab5tract: funge code is generally pretty
19:59:34 <AnMaster> so would it be with embedded uris IMO
19:59:43 <ab5tract> you can have a stack on your stack stack that just stacks uris
19:59:57 <ab5tract> and put them somewhere far out in the space, all together in a neat order
20:00:30 <AnMaster> ab5tract, name collisions were a problem before
20:00:32 <ab5tract> of course i'm visualizing this entirely according to what i envisage as the perfect funge ide
20:00:51 <AnMaster> ab5tract, IDEs? Why would you need that
20:01:00 <AnMaster> all you need is a emacs major-mode
20:01:16 <ab5tract> so that funge doesnt read like a a linear ascii file anymore
20:01:17 <ehird> ab5tract: i'm planning on making a funge ide
20:01:25 <ehird> including fizzie's hyperlink-comment idea think
20:01:32 <AnMaster> ab5tract, I hardly ever use IDEs for anything
20:02:17 <AnMaster> (and no I don't use IDE in the other meaning either)
20:02:36 <ab5tract> well shit, AnMaster you have that emacs together and i'll use it once i can directly download emacs bindings coordination through a memory expansion through a e-sata port in my skull
20:02:50 <ab5tract> but probably not before that :)
20:03:09 <AnMaster> ab5tract, Try kate then? Currently I'm using kate to edit some Erlang code
20:03:19 <AnMaster> and emacs for some other C files
20:03:25 <ab5tract> what i want is a window that shows the space
20:03:49 <ab5tract> and i can zoom and fly around it and whatnot
20:03:50 <ais523> Emacs is excellent for VHDL, I find
20:03:58 <ais523> VHDL's syntax is obnoxious
20:04:04 <AnMaster> ab5tract, that only make sense for trefunge
20:04:08 <ais523> and so Emacs has a little wizard-like thing for each keyword
20:04:11 <AnMaster> for befunge a text editor is just fine
20:04:16 <ab5tract> no it can make sense for mbefunge as well
20:05:04 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:05:07 <oerjan> ab5tract: you've named it, you now have to invent it
20:05:10 <AnMaster> ab5tract, anyway opengl based such stuff have been done, but generally they suck
20:05:55 <ab5tract> ehird: what's your ide going to look like?
20:06:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
20:06:41 <ab5tract> are you gonna write it in funge?
20:10:42 <ab5tract> AnMaster: is emacs capable of having a zoomed out map of an entire 64-bit space?
20:11:06 <ab5tract> obviously it would have to be a pretty complex program for anything to even show up at that distance
20:11:22 <ais523> I think it would mostly show up as sameness if it did
20:11:32 <ais523> because a program that big's likely to be using its fungespace to store data rather than program
20:11:50 <ab5tract> but the idea is to be able to navigate the space on an x,y, and even z access
20:12:46 <ab5tract> z probably not being allowed to go negative
20:13:17 <ab5tract> but you can zoom out and check out all yo' data
20:14:17 <ab5tract> however, if emacs gives a great deal of x,y freedom then it would give me the most important feature i seek
20:14:35 <ais523> ab5tract: emacs has picture-mode
20:14:37 <AnMaster> <ab5tract> AnMaster: is emacs capable of having a zoomed out map of an entire 64-bit space?
20:14:42 <ais523> but that doesn't have a zoom IIRC
20:14:46 <AnMaster> I don't think that is feasible
20:14:58 <ais523> also, ab5tract, stop having a 5 in your name, it makes me think people are talking to me when they talk to you
20:15:15 <ais523> I'm used to being the only 5-containing-person around here
20:15:20 <ais523> but don't worry about it
20:15:30 <ais523> I don't have an exclusive right to 5s...
20:15:53 <AnMaster> ab5tract, also as I said when you had left channel in answer to GUI framework
20:16:00 <ab5tract> if irc were truly cool i coud use the befunge version of my name
20:16:08 <AnMaster> 1) gs is part of standard erlang. It uses Tk.
20:16:28 <AnMaster> 2) Wings3D (a 3D modeller in Erlang) uses some custom-made one that renders to OpenGL
20:16:38 <AnMaster> 3) fizzie added there was erlgtk
20:17:08 <AnMaster> ab5tract, but bindings for funge would be painful
20:17:33 <ab5tract> AnMaster: the idea of funge on erlang is very cool
20:17:36 <AnMaster> ab5tract, but since I plan to make = *evaluate erlang*, this may be a good idea
20:17:54 <ais523> I want to write a funge interp in something silly now
20:17:59 <ais523> like Thutu, that would be a disaster
20:18:03 <AnMaster> anyway doing = as system() would be truly painful in erlang
20:18:08 <fizzie> You can, apparently, with a bit of twiddling, use Tile (the less sucky Tk widget set) with Tkinter (the Python Tk bindings); I wonder if that's the case of 'gs' too.
20:18:19 <ais523> hmm... actually, I have some ideas how a Thutu interp for Befunge-93 could work...
20:18:19 <AnMaster> ab5tract, anyway efunge now have i also, but not o t or = yet
20:18:39 <AnMaster> ab5tract, t may never happen, since it will have ATHR
20:19:04 <ais523> but I have lots of other esostuff I want to do
20:19:09 <AnMaster> ab5tract, however, I must warn you that I'm a I'm a slow worker, especially during non-holidays
20:19:09 <ais523> and two RL projects which are almost eso
20:19:11 <ab5tract> AnMaster: funge-108 should just assume ATHR
20:19:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, and no idea about that for gs
20:19:33 <AnMaster> gs stands for graphic server btw
20:19:40 <ab5tract> ais523: "almost eso" sounds pretty cool
20:19:43 <fizzie> For some reason I find the Tk look quaint.
20:20:01 <ais523> ab5tract: I described my University fourth-year Masters project in this channel
20:20:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, it reminds me of mosaic yes...
20:20:03 <ab5tract> because its like pre-motif right?
20:20:05 <ais523> and the people here said I was mad
20:20:40 <ehird> tk isnt as old as motif
20:20:43 <fizzie> Oh, Tile is part of the 8.5 Tcl/Tk release. Didn't know that.
20:20:45 <ehird> tk has modern widget sets nowadays
20:21:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, what I wonder is how Tk can work with gs since I have no tcl installed
20:40:54 <fizzie> fungot: Hey, try speaking like Terry Pratchett writes. Just for curiosity's sake.
20:40:54 <fungot> fizzie: no, that was their trouble...
20:41:07 <fizzie> fungot: Pretty please?
20:41:08 <fungot> fizzie: ( kids generally, i meet people before they're buried./ ones near/ coast build rafts and head out across lonely seas to lands that are :) little clouded or full of stormy weather.
20:41:34 <fizzie> _Really_, that "other text than irclogs" script has some serious issues with :) and /.
20:43:21 <fizzie> Actually, no. It's just that the text generation code in fungot has a hardcoded list of punctuation tokens, but since :) and / are so _rare_ in the source text, they are not used, and in their place there's some of the most common tokens.
20:43:21 <fungot> fizzie: carrot took another step back. then, his claws fnord tracks in/ floor above. every so often.
20:43:48 <fizzie> I think "the" has been mapped to / here, and :) maybe to "a".
20:44:25 <fizzie> Well, that's easy to fix. Thanks for clarifying it.
20:47:15 <oerjan> carrot doesn't have claws!
20:48:44 <AnMaster> <fizzie> fungot: Hey, try speaking like Terry Pratchett writes. Just for curiosity's sake.
20:48:45 <fungot> AnMaster: ( i know." :) stubby troll finger prodded cuddy in/ back of his mind.
20:48:54 <AnMaster> I have read all the books of course
20:49:13 <AnMaster> oh wait... You mean like Carrot? with misplaced ,
20:49:46 <AnMaster> <fungot> AnMaster: ( i know." :) stubby troll finger prodded cuddy in/ back of his mind. <-- huh
20:49:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, you reloaded word list?
20:50:15 <fizzie> Yes, I was just scp'ing the new model over and you went and talked to it. :p
20:50:18 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:50:38 -!- fungot has joined.
20:50:48 <fizzie> fungot's problem with :) and / should now be fixed.
20:50:48 <fungot> fizzie: " oh. pardon me, i'm just a novice, but he couldn't quite see what it did to metal.
20:51:03 <fungot> AnMaster: " you can damn well find another witch for lancre! for the fnord
20:51:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, I fear the " mess up the effect
20:51:46 <AnMaster> I'm a fan of those books. Yet they lack :) as far as I remember
20:51:46 <fizzie> Well, the " comes from the source text.
20:51:55 <fizzie> Yes, that was the problem.
20:51:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, which book(s) did you use?
20:52:12 <fizzie> There were no :)s and :(s so it removed those tokens, but fungot's punctuation list is hardcoded.
20:52:12 <fungot> fizzie: " will you look at that sky?'
20:52:31 <fizzie> So the two most common tokens ("the" and "a") were translated to the two last punctuation tokens (:) and /) by fungot.
20:52:31 <fungot> fizzie: he turned and waved at someone in the face.
20:52:46 <fizzie> The " comes from the source text, though. Lots of quoted text there.
20:53:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, well yeah, all the talk
20:53:42 <fizzie> I used the Discworld books 1, 3, 7, 8, 9, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23, 25, 26 and 27.
20:53:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, where did you get electronic copies?
20:53:59 <fizzie> Mainly because those were in the highly illegal ebook pile I once got.
20:54:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, So what ones are those?
20:54:48 <fizzie> Colour of Magic, Equal Rites, Pyramids, Guards! Guards!, Eric, Small Gods, Lords and Ladies, Men At Arms, Soul Music, Interesting Times, ...
20:54:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, also lacking number 2 is kind of painful if you have number 1. Since 1 ends with "to be continued"
20:55:15 <fizzie> Maskerade, Feet of Clay, Hogfather, Jingo, Carpe Jugulum, The Truth, The Thief of Time, The Last Hero.
20:55:18 <ais523> neither 1 nor 2 is much good anyway
20:55:24 <ais523> some of the later ones are good, though
20:55:29 <ais523> probably 3 was the first good one
20:55:39 <AnMaster> ais523, Thief of time is my favourite
20:56:00 <ais523> my favourite are the Ankh-Morpork Watch trilogy, but thief of time is good too
20:56:43 <ais523> but I'm not counting night watch as part of that trilogy, although it's OK
20:57:06 <AnMaster> some more depending on how you count
20:57:11 <Asztal> Thief of time is probably my favourite too, though I liked the Bromeliad trilogy
20:57:36 <AnMaster> What do you think about the last one? Nation?
20:57:52 <AnMaster> It is pretty good, but kind of non-Pratchett in style
20:58:54 <fizzie> I haven't read anything later-than-or-equal-to Going Postal yet, actually.
20:59:13 <Slereah_> The Going Postal series is pretty good, actually
20:59:19 <AnMaster> Well I got the complete collection of all books apart from some child books
20:59:20 <ais523> hmm... some of the books I have to read multiple times to understand
20:59:32 <ais523> Going Postal is one of them, but once I got it I liked it
20:59:34 <Slereah_> AnMaster : Do you have the non-discworld books too?
20:59:35 <Asztal> get maurice and the amazing cat :D
20:59:47 <Asztal> (err... Maurice and his amazing rodents)
20:59:53 <Slereah_> Even... The unadultarated cat? :o
21:00:06 <AnMaster> Slereah_, I don't have that "where is my cow"
21:00:16 <Slereah_> It never got translated in French, so I wonder if it's well known
21:00:23 <Slereah_> I have it, but I had to order it
21:00:30 <AnMaster> Slereah_, err why would French be of any interest?
21:00:44 <Slereah_> And all other books are translated
21:00:53 <AnMaster> Slereah_, well I get them in English anyway
21:00:54 <Slereah_> Even shitty ones like Dark side of the sun
21:01:03 <AnMaster> preserves the language, reading in original language
21:01:09 <AnMaster> Slereah_, dark side isn't that bad
21:01:17 <fizzie> I personally only own The Science of Discworld 1/2/3 and some (around six?) random Discworld books, probably with a uniform distribution of Finnish translations (received as gifts) and English versions (bought for reading when travelling).
21:01:22 <AnMaster> Slereah_, what do you think about Carpet people?
21:01:39 <AnMaster> Slereah_, do you have new or original version?
21:02:00 <AnMaster> Slereah_, also that is another thing I miss, some of the discworld diaries
21:02:14 <AnMaster> Slereah_, also I assume you got the discworld quiz books?
21:03:08 <fizzie> Obviously I picked the right author for fungot to quote from. :p
21:03:08 <fungot> fizzie: " samuel!" said caleb. " everything we believe is coming true. and her leg still dropped off. so i thought i'd better make certain.'
21:03:09 <AnMaster> also I lack some of those "short stories" that are listed in "books by the same author".
21:03:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, well he is well known, he writes fantasy (though unusual such) and we are geeks. What did you expect?
21:03:58 <fungot> AnMaster: angua picked out the little organizer and raised the cleaver and brought it down.
21:04:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think these sounds pretty bad in fact
21:04:47 <fizzie> I don't think very many other well-known fantasy authors would have multiple people here owning a rather complete collection of such a large set of books.
21:05:05 <fizzie> Yes, it isn't very conversational.
21:05:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, also it would be more realistic if the space between " and the text is correct
21:05:17 <fungot> AnMaster: ' it goes with us. it's very urgent.'
21:05:18 <fizzie> I'll get to that one of these days.
21:05:26 <fungot> AnMaster: dorfl wrote: ' wuffles ( 16), formerly of the palace.
21:06:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, what was the logic for that one?
21:06:29 <AnMaster> fungot, What about the copyright on your quotes?
21:06:29 <fungot> AnMaster: individual concerned. of course.
21:06:42 <fizzie> Punctuation is separate tokens, so when it choose "wuffles", it only had "wrote: '" as context.
21:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hrrm.
21:07:19 <fizzie> I don't think I have very many other large collections of text on my computer to use as source text. So far IRC-talk has worked best for generating IRC-talk-like text -- a huge surprise, there.
21:07:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, "wuffles (16), formerly of the palace." kind of make sense for The Truth though
21:07:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, maybe some space cleaning? Like removing the space after ( and such
21:07:55 <fizzie> fungot: Just go back to IRC-speak.
21:07:56 <fungot> fizzie: run full, run delegate, more.
21:08:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, well now it will be that if you include this channel in the log
21:08:17 <fizzie> The space after ( is just an artifact of the Funge-98 token-sequence-to-text implementation.
21:08:30 <fizzie> I'll get it fixed at some point.
21:08:36 <AnMaster> fungot, maybe you should bug fizzie about refining it?
21:08:37 <fungot> AnMaster: you can approach it symbolically! fnord
21:08:51 <AnMaster> fungot, like... in lisp? But you are in Befunge... How would that work?
21:09:07 <AnMaster> fungot, great that you admit your mistakes
21:09:07 <fungot> AnMaster: and i'm sick of arguing with trotskyists when i was there i think
21:09:49 <fizzie> It's IRC-speak now, probably from #scheme.
21:10:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, using discworld was cool :P
21:10:26 <fizzie> "This really reminds me of arguing with Trotskyists when I was a young lad. They're all necons now, of course." was the original quote.
21:11:03 <fizzie> It used the "of arguing with" context to switch to the Trotskyists phase, and "when I was" context to go somewhere else.
21:11:54 <fizzie> Discworld didn't actually work as badly as (or at least any worse than) Darwin, but it still didn't sound like conversation.
21:12:08 <fizzie> I wonder if I should feed it some telephone conversations.
21:13:23 <fizzie> I seem to have 86 megabytes of transcribed telephone conversations here.
21:13:40 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure what our license allows us to do with it, though.
21:15:41 <fizzie> A couple of times, actually.
21:15:54 <fizzie> Some twenty or so books of his.
21:15:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, got some quotes of it?
21:16:07 <fizzie> Well, it was full of :)s and /s and biology. :p
21:16:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, Charles Darwin produced that many?
21:16:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, and an archaic language I guess
21:16:42 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/darwinbooks.txt is the list of books I used.
21:21:56 <ehird> did i tell you about how he's a pope?
21:22:07 <fizzie> Whirrrr, there go the telephone conversations.
21:22:47 <fizzie> 5849 separate ten-minute phonecalls.
21:23:45 <fizzie> That's something like a thousand hours of speech.
21:24:09 <ehird> what are you doing
21:24:35 <fizzie> Running out of memory, it seems. :p
21:24:45 <ehird> what is the goooooal
21:24:53 <ais523> ehird: fizzie's planning to feed them to fungot
21:24:53 <fungot> ais523: how dare you steal that version of hato, it's buggy
21:25:06 <ais523> fizzie: also: did you invent BrainfuckNomic
21:25:13 <ais523> someone in ##nomic thought you did, but wasn't sure
21:25:16 <oerjan> ehird: it's FOR SCIENCE
21:25:18 <fizzie> No, I don't think I did.
21:25:34 <fizzie> Two gigabytes of memory and two gigabytes of swap in use, I'm not sure my script can handle all that.
21:25:34 <ab5tract> fizzie: how about the funge spec?
21:25:45 <fungot> ab5tract: you still need something to pay the coders to fix it
21:26:34 <ehird> Hey! Who wants to roll a securely random number????
21:27:23 <oerjan> Slereah_: randomest number there is
21:27:41 <oerjan> in fact i was thinking of exactly that
21:27:55 <fizzie> Someone in the theoretical computer science lab has that Dilbert strip about RNGs on their door.
21:28:33 <fizzie> "And here we have our random number generator..." (troll saying:) "Nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine..." "Are you sure that's random?" "That's the problem with randomness, you can never be sure."
21:28:42 <fizzie> Maybe that sort of transcription would be enough to find it.
21:28:50 <ais523> yes, it's quite a clever joke
21:29:07 <fizzie> My browser seems to have hung up thanks to that Perl script eating all the memory.
21:29:22 <Slereah_> Although usually, random numbers generator aren't made to do real randomness
21:29:26 <ais523> fizzie: maybe you should feed it less input?
21:29:29 <Slereah_> Well, at least not with the things I use 'em for
21:29:38 <Slereah_> They just need to fit a distribution
21:29:50 <fizzie> ais523: That's a good idea, but I don't want to interrupt it now, in the hopes that it will be done real-soon-now.
21:30:18 <fizzie> It's less raw data than the IRC logs, but apparently somewhat different, since the irc-log-model-building didn't take quite this long.
21:30:57 <fizzie> Ooh, it got past stage 2 (selecting the tokens) and is now converting all the conversations to a single string of tokens.
21:33:21 <fizzie> I'm sure that it will finish soon and then I'll notice that the script was somehow borken and the output is unusable.
21:34:57 <fizzie> Actually, now that I think of it, I think I ran the IRC logs thing on one of the computing cluster machines with heaps of memory, and not on my own puny computar. (Since no-one seemed to be using them right then.)
21:37:32 <fizzie> Seems pretty busy, actually. Node 13 only has a load of 1, though.
21:37:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, and couldn't you do like processing it in chunks and then merging those chunks later?
21:37:52 <fizzie> Possibly, but I haven't spent much time tweaking this thing.
21:38:46 <Deewiant> fizzie: which cluster is that?
21:39:23 <fizzie> Deewiant: The HUT CIS one. Well, I guess we're now called ICS, having merged with the TCS people, and I think they're in the process of merging our computing systems.
21:41:40 <fizzie> HUT is Helsinki University of Technology (although they're in the process of changing the name and merging with two other universities; one for arts and one for CAPITALISM, I mean, commerce and all that stuff); CIS was Center for Information Science (maybe?), ICS is Information and Computer Science, and TCS is Theoretical Computer Science.
21:42:04 <fizzie> It's all very confusing; I'm not quite sure where I work.
21:42:32 <oerjan> you don't have to answer that
21:42:34 <fizzie> I should be writing my master's thesis around now.
21:42:38 <Deewiant> fizzie: yeah, I just checked the TCS one and it wasn't that one so I was wondering ;-)
21:42:48 <Deewiant> there's a bunch of room there if you have access to it.
21:43:33 <fizzie> Deewiant: There was some talk about getting the computing clusters set up so that all now-ICS-people can access both ones by October, but I haven't heard any news and/or instructions yet.
21:43:43 <fizzie> They did change my numerical UID to avoid conflicts, though.
21:45:01 <fizzie> Some three of the ten "newer nodes" in the CIS cluster only have two of the four cores in use, so I guess there would technically speaking be some room there too.
21:45:15 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:45:18 <Deewiant> so what, you're part-timing at CIS?
21:45:29 <fizzie> Full-timing nowadays, doing that master's thesis thing.
21:46:10 <fizzie> I was at ICS for the last summer (2007) and got stuck there.
21:46:11 <Deewiant> would have probably continued if I hadn't started at HSE
21:46:29 <fizzie> I think the script has actually finished, since the data file has stopped growing, but it's not stopping. Maybe Perl is doing that full garbage-collection trip it does when quitting.
21:46:30 <Deewiant> might be back next summer, though.
21:47:14 <fizzie> Okay, it finished; now it's anyone's guess if my C++ code can handle building 4-grams out of that mess.
21:48:07 <fizzie> I don't think I quite got the script to clean up the conversations right.
21:48:58 <fizzie> 91328 unigrams, 2200072 bigrams, and now it's computing 3-gram counts.
21:49:12 <fizzie> 5851827 3-grams; 4-grams next.
21:49:39 <fizzie> I really should've done something more clever here, but I was in a hurry to get some sort of babbling out of fungot.
21:49:39 <fungot> fizzie: sounds challenging. :) i just remembered
21:50:05 <fizzie> optbot was chattering all the time, I didn't want my bot to be so quiet.
21:50:14 <fizzie> optbot: Well, you were!
21:50:15 <optbot> fizzie: there should be more of a market for esolang programmers
21:50:32 <fizzie> I think we all agree on that one, at least.
21:51:44 <Deewiant> Nah; I'd be worried if companies actually /wanted/ you to use esolangs
21:52:15 <ais523> Deewiant: if VHDL is an esolang, lots do
21:52:23 -!- slereah has joined.
21:52:51 <fizzie> Deewiant: Nokia gave me a summer job in 2006 for knowing Befunge. (Okay, so the chain of causality is maybe not exactly clear, but I'm sure that was the main reason they had.)
21:53:11 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:53:25 <ehird> ais523: they were interested in that he had esolangs in his hobbies section on his cv
21:53:27 <fizzie> I talked about this just yesterday or so, I'm not sure I want to bore people again with it.
21:53:33 <Deewiant> fizzie: sure, I'm sure it helped for my TCS summer job as well. Hell, CCBI and Mycology were pretty much the only things on my CV.
21:53:34 <fizzie> That's a reasonable summary.
21:53:46 <ais523> fizzie: ah, I wasn't here yesterday
21:54:04 <Deewiant> fizzie: but, nobody's wanted me to actually /use/ Funge for something :-)
21:54:19 <ehird> i totally hope i can get a job with such achievements as "wrote a program to roll a dice between two people, cheat-proof'
21:54:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, no, it was just Perl. :p
21:55:43 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:56:41 -!- Fourchan_Partyva has joined.
21:57:28 <fizzie> Finish, you silly little piece of code!
21:57:44 -!- Fourchan_Partyva has changed nick to Slereah.
21:59:09 <fizzie> I would endure this better if I wasn't so sure that it's going to just start generating messy and uninteresting jumble of words as output.
22:00:14 -!- Corun has joined.
22:07:01 <fizzie> It's only 350 lines of C++, how can it take so long to execute it!
22:12:39 <Deewiant> I can give you 11 chars of bash which will take a while
22:12:55 <ais523> Deewiant: the standard obfuscated fork bomb?
22:13:21 <ais523> :(){:};: is shorter, and an infiniloop I think
22:13:36 <ais523> although really we need AnMaster to check that, e's the resident Bash expert
22:13:58 <Deewiant> can't beat Windows batch, though :-P
22:13:58 <ais523> only esoprogrammers write like that
22:14:03 <ais523> even Perl has more letters usually
22:14:13 <ais523> AnMaster: is :(){:};: an infiniloop in bash?
22:14:20 <fizzie> I'm just being impatient because I'd like to see fungot talk like an American telephone conversationalist.
22:14:20 <fungot> fizzie: on my end, that's solved, i think
22:14:22 -!- kar8nga has joined.
22:14:25 <ais523> and does bash optimise tail-recursion, for that matter?
22:14:27 <AnMaster> ais523, well I usually don't do recursion in bash
22:14:50 <AnMaster> it is not the language I would write functional style in
22:15:06 <Deewiant> isn't that a better fork bomb?
22:15:06 <Slereah> Did you just divide by zero?
22:15:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well piping bash to bash
22:15:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but should be better since it only start one bash in each
22:16:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: evidently it doesn't bomb
22:16:38 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
22:16:44 <AnMaster> ** exception exit: {noproc,{gen_server,call,[efunge_input,stop]}}
22:17:04 <ais523> Slereah: the standard obfuscated bash fork bomb has a pipe in
22:17:05 <AnMaster> the standard bash forkbomb have a pipe
22:17:13 <ais523> but I suspect Slereah was trying to make a pun
22:19:08 <Deewiant> Slereah: $0|$0 could be a fork bomb because it starts itself twice
22:20:01 <Slereah> I don't know what all that means, Deewiant
22:20:39 <ais523> Deewiant: I'm loading up a VM to test it in
22:20:41 <Slereah> Yeah, I suck pretty hard in CS
22:20:51 <Deewiant> ais523: I tried it, but I'm not sure what happened
22:21:02 <ais523> Deewiant: what did top say?
22:21:05 <Deewiant> spawned a few shells but didn't bomb
22:21:20 <Deewiant> I seemed to have two shells running on top of each other though: every keypress was echoed twice
22:22:01 * ais523 waits for Knoppix to detect all the fake devices on the VM
22:23:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: So did you run it in a file or just on the command line?
22:23:39 <Deewiant> command line, then file, to be exact
22:23:46 <Deewiant> didn't notice anything happening from the cmdline though
22:24:18 <fizzie> Simple $0 on command line here is just "-bash: -bash: command not found" thanks to that '-' in the name.
22:24:56 <AnMaster> I think I got input server working
22:24:57 <fizzie> Would think it might work in a file, though.
22:25:46 <ais523> Deewiant: I just tried in a VM
22:25:50 <ais523> and every window in the VM disappeared
22:26:10 <ais523> apart from the KDE toolbar along the bottom
22:26:16 <ais523> the desktop background went too...
22:26:23 <Deewiant> Well, I'm going to bed. Good luck hosing your systems!
22:26:40 <ais523> it seems to have crashed
22:26:45 <ais523> so quite possibly a fork-bomb then
22:31:08 <ais523> +ul (^bf ,[.,]!Hi optbot!)S
22:31:08 <optbot> ais523: oh... yeah I forgot to get rid of the newline.
22:31:09 <optbot> thutubot: i guess mapcar is more descriptive
22:31:09 <optbot> fungot: cool I think your notation makes sense then
22:31:09 <fungot> optbot: my hypothesis has to do
22:31:10 <fungot> optbot: i've already been using a manually downloaded eclipse so far, effectively, that it has became like ie was
22:31:10 <optbot> fungot: it can type higher order functions and all
22:31:11 <fungot> optbot: objc and smaltalk does... in a filter... fnord
22:31:11 <optbot> fungot: Is that valid Malbolge, Gregor?
22:31:12 <fungot> optbot: ams isn't in gnu anymore? :) renaming whenever there's a conflict?
22:32:04 <oerjan> optbot: you can say that again
22:32:44 <fizzie> Hmm, according to a (standard outdoor-type, because we only have one fridge/freezer-specific one) thermometer our freezer is -38 degrees Celsius. I find that hard to believe.
22:40:26 <fizzie> Should've just told that thing to use up to 3-grams.
22:43:17 <AnMaster> http://paste.lisp.org/display/68711
22:43:56 <AnMaster> that is how simple making a server is in erlang
22:44:03 <AnMaster> could be shortened down a lot too
22:44:04 <ais523> AnMaster: it's even simpler in INTERCACL
22:44:16 <ais523> Claudio has a 2-line pastebin server somewhere
22:44:22 <ais523> and the client isn't much more complicated
22:44:29 <ais523> well, not pastebin, global clipboard
22:44:45 <ais523> AnMaster: well, everything's client-driven in CLC-INTERCAL
22:44:49 <ais523> you steal data from the server
22:44:53 <ais523> and two short simple lines
22:44:59 <AnMaster> ais523, and how long is the client?
22:45:05 <ais523> all a server has to do is go into an infiniloop
22:45:06 <AnMaster> ais523, since the same module includes the client
22:45:10 <ais523> as for the client, probably 4 or 5
22:45:16 <ais523> let me try to find the source
22:45:18 <AnMaster> gen_server:call({global, ?SERVER}, read_char, infinity).
22:45:22 <AnMaster> gen_server:call({global, ?SERVER}, read_integer, infinity).
22:45:25 <fizzie> I'd try looking but my browser is again swapped out. :p
22:45:53 <AnMaster> ? indicates "treat this as a macro"
22:46:00 <AnMaster> means erlang macros very clean
22:46:03 <ais523> ah, here's the server:
22:46:06 <ais523> (1) PLEASE COME FROM (1)
22:46:11 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
22:46:12 <ais523> simple enough to paste into a channel
22:46:43 <AnMaster> ais523, well... strip all comment -spec and -type from my paste and you get the bare minimal one
22:47:39 <AnMaster> ais523, still this was easy, I just selected gen_server template in erlange-mode in emacs. then filled it in
22:48:04 <AnMaster> ais523, gen_server is a design pattern
22:48:12 <AnMaster> the main one for erlang I guess
22:48:12 <fizzie> Them conversations, they're so awkward. They're all like "uh so according to this we should be talking about where we get our news" "oh uh well I just watch TV" "so.. what do we do now for the next nine-and-a-half minutes?"
22:48:20 -!- Mony has quit ("Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent.").
22:48:26 <AnMaster> ais523, all the servery details is handled elsewhere, all you write is a callback module
22:48:33 <AnMaster> + some API functions for clients
22:49:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is the data source?
22:49:55 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:50:00 <fizzie> It's the Fisher English Corpus (part 2) from LDC. "Conversational telephone speech". I don't know (read: haven't bothered to check) the details on how they collected that stuff.
22:50:13 <fizzie> I'm just feeding fungot the transcriptions.
22:50:14 <fungot> fizzie: where c iz a character for schwa. nothing
22:51:03 <fizzie> Ten-minute conversations between parties "A" and "B"; they have been anonymized.
22:51:45 <fizzie> I think it works so that there's just two people who don't know each other, and they give them a topic to talk about and then they have to spend at least ten minutes having a conversation.
22:51:56 -!- Slereah has joined.
22:52:21 <fizzie> I'll have to thank the US Department of Defence (and DARPA) for sponsoring the data collection so that I can put it to good use like this.
22:52:57 <fizzie> (Assuming my model-building task ever finishes.)
22:53:10 <ais523> it's a testsuite for your model-builder, obviously
22:55:11 <fizzie> Well, our department paid for that stuff, I'm sure they wouldn't like it to go to waste.
22:55:41 <AnMaster> ais523, fizzie: http://paste.lisp.org/display/68711#1
22:55:51 <AnMaster> I rewrote comments to edoc style
22:56:00 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:56:01 <ais523> well, relatively short
22:56:04 <AnMaster> which also can be used to auto-generate html docs from
22:56:06 <ais523> but CLC-INTERCAL still wins
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22:56:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Documentation overload, man. Let the code speak for itself.
22:56:20 <ehird> ais523: == Slereah
22:56:25 <AnMaster> ehird, as I said it was generated from a template
22:57:43 <fizzie> "i guess our topic is the movies whether you like to go to the theater or rent them and stay home" -- hah, I wouldn't know how to talk 10 minutes about that.
22:57:57 <AnMaster> ais523, as for clc... It is just harder to use still :P
22:58:11 <ais523> fizzie: I generally don't watch films at all
22:58:16 <ais523> so the answer is "neither"
22:58:36 <ehird> i have nowhere near the attention span neccessary for a film
22:58:48 <AnMaster> ehird, as if we didn't know tht
22:59:09 <AnMaster> ehird, not even long enough for Star Trek?
22:59:26 <ehird> star trek is pretty boring most of the time
22:59:37 <fizzie> They all start with "it's my first time doing this" or "have you done this before?" or things like that; it's like reading a transcription of a telephone dating thing.
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23:00:07 <ehird> fizzie: Is this freely available?
23:00:15 <Slereah_> Here's the plot : a bunch of characters are turned into children!
23:00:22 <fizzie> ehird: No, it's $7000 for non-LDC members. :p
23:00:28 <ehird> fizzie: What the fuck. :D
23:00:36 <ehird> I could just torrent it, I'm sure it's somewhere.
23:00:49 <fizzie> Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania.
23:00:52 <ehird> And I will feel absolutely no guilt for downloading the extremely precious HUGE-ASS ARCHIVE OF AWKWARD CONVERSATIONS
23:00:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, also why would anyone pay for that stuff...
23:00:55 <fizzie> They collect all kinds of speech corpuses.
23:01:10 <fizzie> Well, it's quite a challenging test for a speech recognizer.
23:01:32 <fizzie> It's not really recreational reading it's for.
23:01:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, they fail even on easy stuff... there is no point in trying it on that hard stuff
23:02:01 <AnMaster> even the OS X one is hilariously bad
23:02:13 <AnMaster> and it is actually one of the better ones I seen so far
23:02:16 <ais523> so is the default Windows one
23:02:26 <AnMaster> ais523, well the windows one is worse
23:02:27 <ais523> I used to have fun playing Chinese Whispers with it
23:03:23 <fizzie> For clean speech, I don't think they've got a word error rate percentage of more than a low-single-digit number. And besides, the hard stuff is what's interesting.
23:03:47 <fizzie> "Failure" is what you want out of it.
23:03:50 <AnMaster> ais523, still what is that game?
23:04:02 <fizzie> "They" here refer to state-of-the-art stuff. I don't know anything about the bundled ones.
23:04:05 <ais523> AnMaster: basically, it requires a very large number of people
23:04:11 <ais523> the first one thinks up a phrase and whispers it to the second
23:04:16 <ais523> the second whispers it to the third
23:04:22 <ais523> then the last person says it out loud
23:04:25 <ehird> and at the end, you compare the two phrases
23:04:31 <ais523> and everyone laughs at how different it is from the original
23:04:32 <ehird> and see how much got lost in the bad whispering
23:04:45 <AnMaster> ais523, it will actually be much different?
23:04:50 <ais523> if you have enough people, yes
23:05:00 <ais523> it doesn't work with only a few as they remember what it's supposed to be
23:05:15 <ais523> but speech recognisers never catch on, so you can play two-player with them
23:05:18 <AnMaster> ais523, well if they don't know what it is supposed to be?
23:05:24 <ehird> AnMaster: that's the whole point
23:05:31 <ehird> you don't know what it's supposed to be, but you hear something
23:05:34 <AnMaster> "<ais523> it doesn't work with only a few as they remember what it's supposed to be"
23:05:36 <ehird> so you try and pass on what you think you heard
23:05:44 <ais523> AnMaster: I mean, if you try to go round more than once
23:05:52 <ais523> then people remember what they heard the firs time
23:05:55 <fizzie> It's called "rikkinäinen puhelin" (lit: broken phone) in Finland.
23:06:10 <ais523> most successful games are played with about 100 people or so, and yes I have been in a Chinese Whispers game that big
23:06:11 <AnMaster> I have never been much for such games
23:06:30 <ehird> when I was young[er] i used to pass on a completely different phrase.
23:06:37 <ehird> so that at the end everyone asks who the hell messed it up :D
23:06:50 <ais523> ehird: that's generally considered cheating
23:06:58 <ais523> but in any set of 100 you get a few like that
23:07:02 <AnMaster> ais523, it is impossible to prove who did it
23:07:09 <ehird> it's quite EASY to
23:07:21 <ais523> AnMaster: not the way we played it, people often asked 2 people back rather than 1 if they suspected the previous person was cheating
23:07:33 <ais523> not that that's legal either, but you can't really stop it
23:07:39 <ehird> same way "psychics" can communicate with people back from the dead
23:07:55 <ehird> the people who did it will be easy to spot after you do it enough times, i imagine
23:08:26 <AnMaster> also what do "psychics" have to do with it?
23:08:31 <AnMaster> they are just making it up after all
23:09:03 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading
23:09:06 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_reading
23:09:21 <AnMaster> you seriously don't believe in such para-normal stuff?
23:09:21 <ehird> even the ones who truly believe they are doing it do that
23:09:24 <ehird> they just dont' realise it
23:09:31 <ehird> AnMaster: please click links before saying anything
23:09:39 <ehird> you just made yourself look like a fool...
23:17:59 <fizzie> I hope the C++ code doesn't have any same sort of bugs that cause fungot to occasionally go to an infinite loop when generating babble. It's computated that thing for a suspiciously long time, compared to how fast it did the first stages.
23:17:59 <fungot> fizzie: http://pastebin.ca/ 397959 mathematica is a kickass piece of software
23:18:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, attach gdb to it, add some trace points?
23:19:01 <fizzie> Uh.. what's that paste?
23:19:13 <Slereah_> But sometimes, it's hard to handle
23:19:16 <fizzie> I rather like Mathematica, even though the language is a bit funky.
23:19:28 <fizzie> I don't think I've compiled that thing with debugging symbols, and my gdb-fu is weak.
23:19:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, H and lots of question marks
23:19:37 <AnMaster> H???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
23:19:37 <AnMaster> ??????????????????????????????????e?????????????????????????????????????????????
23:19:37 <AnMaster> ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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23:19:45 <fizzie> Yes, but what's the point of it.
23:19:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, no clue, check origin?
23:20:12 <fizzie> Looks somewhat hello-worldy.
23:20:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, well where did it get that quote from?
23:20:57 <fizzie> Checking, but it seems sort-of cheating not to try figuring it out.
23:21:55 <oerjan> hm i vaguely recall that
23:22:32 <oerjan> was it the dupdog hello world maybe
23:23:06 <fizzie> The program is in the esolang wiki.
23:24:47 <AnMaster> and doesn't fit the desc for the language above
23:26:13 <AnMaster> that should not be tc as far as I can tell?
23:26:24 <AnMaster> since how do you do even a trivial infinite loop?
23:27:40 <oerjan> i don't think we ever found out
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23:28:51 <fizzie> (Must sleep now, hopefully fungot'll be ready to speak all "um uh [noise] umm" telephone conversation by tomorrow.)
23:28:52 <fungot> fizzie: i'm religious!! i wanta tell you you're a great comedian sgeo
23:29:41 <fizzie> Sometimes I have a feeling fungot's a few bits short of a full byte.
23:29:41 <fungot> fizzie: in scheme it is executed
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23:33:40 <AnMaster> <fungot> fizzie: i'm religious!! i wanta tell you you're a great comedian sgeo
23:33:40 <fungot> AnMaster: because they can feel they're on the left margin.
23:34:14 <AnMaster> Sgeo, what a coincidence you joined just after
23:35:47 <ehird> fun fact - the eso pastebin is about to be up
23:35:50 <ehird> putting the final touches on it
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00:04:29 <ehird> The ESO pastebin _finally_ launches, after me working on it for all of 10 minutes. :-P
00:04:38 <ehird> http://paste.eso-std.org/. Yes, it's spartan, yes, that's intentional. have fun.
00:05:09 <ehird> Unfortunately, pastes 1 and 2 (http://paste.eso-std.org/1 and http://paste.eso-std.org/2) are taken from me testing.
00:05:14 <ehird> So you can't nab that piece of history.
00:21:26 <ehird> ... and now there's a python api (available on the page)
00:46:57 <GregorR> Aww, it's not written in Brainfuck? :(
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00:57:17 <ehird> GregorR: No, i'm not that crazy.
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01:45:01 <GregorR> http://www.cafepress.com/bizarregeek.318713308
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02:02:43 <GregorR> pikhq: "There is no reason for anyone but Gregor to wear this."
02:03:50 <pikhq> Unless I want people to choose Gregor's hats?
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09:02:37 <fizzie> 9438299 4-grams, but it hasn't finished doing whatever it's doing after that. I don't think it should be doing much else than writing things to file, though.
09:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | chr() arg not in range(256).
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10:29:48 <fizzie> Sorry, was building furniture.
10:29:58 <fizzie> Or maybe "assembling" is the correct word.
10:30:42 <fizzie> It has written just 40 megs of model.bin.
10:31:24 <fizzie> fis 11679 1.7 67.2 2367952 1385348 pts/10 D+ Oct17 13:30 ./buildlm
10:31:37 <fizzie> Quite a large process.
10:32:14 <fizzie> I'm thinking the whole N-gram tree is too big to fit in memory and it's so udderly slow thanks to all the swapping.
10:32:28 <fizzie> I wonder if I should just interrupt it; I'd like to get my web browser back.
10:57:01 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Or maybe "assembling" is the correct word. <-- IKEA?
10:57:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you use lots of std:: stuff in that C++ app?
10:57:54 <fizzie> Yes, to both of those questions.
10:57:59 <AnMaster> normally they take a bit more memory
10:58:17 <fizzie> It was just convenient.
10:58:24 <AnMaster> most of the time not an issue... but it seems to be here
10:58:37 <AnMaster> would it be impossible to process it in chunks?
10:58:57 <AnMaster> and try to keep locality of reference to prevent swapping in/out all the time
10:59:08 <AnMaster> instead working on the data already in memory
10:59:43 <fizzie> Well, it's a big tree, 17581526 nodes. The per-node data structures are not very small either, even though they could be.
11:00:56 <fizzie> I don't think there are, and in any case it just builds the tree and writes it to file; it's not deleting any nodes ever.
11:01:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, well making the data more compact could help indeed
11:01:43 <AnMaster> making sure to organise structs to prevent holes and padding
11:01:58 <fizzie> Yes, I think I could cut memory consumption to a half without too much trouble.
11:02:28 <AnMaster> (the tool pahole, made for the linux kernel originally, can help with that, it reads debug info and report badly organised structs)
11:03:50 <AnMaster> (I have used it on cfunge to reduce the memory usage)
11:05:31 <fizzie> There's even some data duplication here, I have a std::map<unsigned, Node*> for children and a std::map<unsigned, unsigned> for the word-counts, and for every non-leaf node both mappings have the same set of keys. The program is quite the memory hog, but really, I was more concerned in getting it to work at all than making it efficient.
11:07:20 <fizzie> Must go to a birthday thing now. With any luck it has finished before I get back, and then I can postpone fixing that C++ code until the next time I have a large amount of data to feed to fungot.
11:07:21 <fungot> fizzie: premature optimization etc. for now, we're on cleaner topics today.
11:07:36 <fizzie> Heh, that's even related.
11:07:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, idea: ALICE bot in befunge
11:09:26 <fizzie> Currently fungot's babbling is a bit cheating-like; all the hard work is done by this supporting code, and it doesn't even keep any sort of data structures in funge-space, simply uses FILE's seek/read operations to navigate the resulting tree.
11:09:27 <fungot> fizzie: is arizona fnord herbal tonic any good?)
11:10:12 <fizzie> fungot: Simply based on the name, I don't think I'd buy it. The "fnord" there is suspicious.
11:10:13 <fungot> fizzie: the multiple values to bind, what parameters your procedures accept, and what some of the old lisp os's ( can't remember the last time i checked
11:15:04 <fizzie> The babble generation is pretty much: len = 0; while (1) { node = root; for (i = 1; i <= len; i++) { if (!node.children[text[len-i]]) { word = random_with_weights(node.words); break; } node = node.children[text[len-i]]; } text.append(word); len++; if (node.canstop && random_stoppage()) break; }
11:15:09 <fizzie> Very easy to do in Befunge.
11:15:11 <fizzie> Oh, the bus is going. ->
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12:44:58 <ehird> i read away messages
12:48:18 <ehird> damn i want this http://www.cafepress.com/bizarregeek.11389675 and this http://www.cafepress.com/bizarregeek.255291006
12:48:22 <ehird> except the former's colour scheme puts me off
13:24:03 <ehird> he's not actually here
13:26:24 <AnMaster> ehird, hm one of the products in "Other items by Bizarre Geek:" there says "Original design by RodgerTheGreat, used with permission"
13:26:34 <ehird> GregorR runs that store.
13:26:43 <AnMaster> yes that was what I was about to ask
13:27:29 <ehird> i'm going to make a book of pages and pages of cellular automata
13:27:32 <ehird> i will title it the null string
13:28:47 <ehird> I hate how folklore.org has not been updated since like 2004 and they still haven't added any other collections apart from the original macintosh one
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13:48:52 <ehird> yep, I just los it .
13:50:40 <ehird> http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/columns/ten_easy_ways_attract_women_your_free_software_project <- Jesus christ, this is a load of sexual bullshit just pandering to a bunch of idiotic stereotypes.
13:50:55 <ehird> lol freudian slip because all men think about is sex lol
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13:53:27 <Slereah_> ehird : That's because stereotypes are funny
13:53:45 <ehird> Not very useful for serious advice though...
13:54:04 <Slereah_> A top ten list is never serious, ehird
13:54:25 <Slereah_> It could be "top ten most efficient sorting algorithm" and be a fucking joke
13:54:27 <ehird> There's not much making it a top ten beyond the sections being labeled with numbers.
13:57:49 <jix> nargh... because of you i lost the game....
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14:02:57 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers5/1220910895470.jpg
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14:12:48 <AnMaster> so just put a regex ignore on that stuff if you care about it. I certainly don't.
14:16:38 <ehird> AnMaster: That's not easy.
14:16:44 <ehird> U l0st the g a e m
14:16:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't read that language. What one is it?
14:17:13 <AnMaster> Hm seems google translate can't handle AOL
14:17:14 <ehird> With your sarcastic acknowledgement of it you obviously were able to extract the basic meaning and thus I still succeeded.
14:17:34 <ehird> (Also, I'd advise you stop trying to be funny because you're really not very good at it. (Worse than I.))
14:17:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I can see French and guess it is French even though I can't understand it
14:18:04 <ehird> AnMaster: That was very easily decodable to "U lost the gaem" then "You lose the game".
14:18:19 <ehird> Of course, "Y o u l o s t t h e g a e m" would work too.
14:18:38 <AnMaster> well you could probably make a bayesian filter
14:29:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Bayesian filters aren't very good at anything that isn't spam filtering.
14:30:11 <AnMaster> ehird, well it is kind of spam ;P
14:30:31 <ehird> It's junk, you might think, but it's not spam.
14:30:53 <ehird> Either way, blocking "Y ou los t t he ga m e" without false positives is... difficult.
14:31:07 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, and also I don't care about that silly game.
14:31:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, or ais523: any of you there?
14:31:36 <ehird> <AnMaster> so just put a regex ignore on that stuff if you care about it. I certainly don't.
14:31:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Please learn to use /who.
14:31:51 <ehird> ais523 is set as away when he is not there, rather appropriately.
14:32:13 <ehird> fizzie has been idle for 3 hours, so you could nickping him and see.
14:32:38 <AnMaster> ehird, sometimes I idle a lot and I'm just doing other stuff but still notice a highlight on irc
14:32:56 <ehird> AnMaster: The point is...
14:33:03 <ehird> If fizzie was idle for 20 hours, he's away.
14:33:06 <ehird> If he's idle for 2 minutes, he's here.
14:33:08 <ehird> If it's 3 hours, ask.
14:33:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Not the point, you should still check before just uselessly nickpinging someone who possibly isn't even online to see it.
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14:34:06 <AnMaster> ehird, and this bothers you so?
14:34:32 <ehird> Yes, because about half your lines is "ais523 there?" or "why isn't ais523 here".
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14:38:00 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the total set for that half?
14:38:36 <AnMaster> "<ehird> Yes, because about half your lines is"
14:38:41 <AnMaster> you mean something else I assume?
14:38:53 <ehird> One. Message. After.
14:39:14 <ehird> "Yes, because about half your lines are "ais523 there?" or "why isn't ais523 here"."
14:39:43 <AnMaster> $ grep -c '<AnMaster>' /home/arvid/.xchat2/xchatlogs/FreeNode-#esoteric.log
14:39:44 <AnMaster> $ grep '<AnMaster>' /home/arvid/.xchat2/xchatlogs/FreeNode-#esoteric.log | grep ais523 | grep there | wc -l
14:40:03 <ehird> Ha ha ha ohh you take things literally!
14:40:05 <AnMaster> and most of those are unrelated
14:40:07 <AnMaster> okt 17 19:19:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I added the security considerations there
14:40:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I decided to do that yes
14:40:27 <AnMaster> since the statistics were incorrect
14:40:28 <ehird> When will you get it in to your head that English is more than flat text?
14:40:46 <AnMaster> maybe the day you start being funny?
14:40:56 <ehird> I'm not trying to be funny.
14:41:14 <ehird> And fuck this shit, I don't have time for a place that's just been consistently annoying ever since you showed up.
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14:48:31 <AnMaster> well he will be 1) log reading 2) be back soon
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15:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ->++>+++>+>+>+++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>++>+++>++>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>>+++>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>>>+>+>>>+>+>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>++>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>+++>+>>+++>>+++>>++[[>>+[>]++>++[<]<-]>+[>]<+<+++[<]<+]>+[>]++++>++[[<++++++++++++++++>-]<.
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16:04:41 <AnMaster> ^bf ->++>+++>+>+>+++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>++>+++>++>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>>+++>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>>>+>+>>>+>+>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>++>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>+++>+>>+++>>+++>>++[[>>+[>]++>++[<]<-]>+[>]<+<+++[<]<+]>+[>]++++>++[[<++++++++++++++++>-]<
16:04:57 <AnMaster> so the thing in topic is cut off?
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16:09:07 <oerjan> ^bf ->++>+++>+>+>+++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>++>+++>++>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>>+++>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>>>+>+>>>+>+>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>++>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>+++>+>>+++>>+++>>++[[>>+[>]++>++[<]<-]>+[>]<+<+++[<]<+]>+[>]++++>++[[<++++++++++++++++>-]<
16:10:55 <oerjan> ^bf ->++>+++>+>+>+++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>++>+++>++>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>>+++>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>>>+>+>>>+>+>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>++>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>+++>+>>+++>>+++>>++[[>>+[>]++>++[<]<-]>+[>]<+<+++[<]<+]>+[>]++++>++
16:11:15 <oerjan> oh no printing commands
16:12:05 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>]
16:12:30 <Slereah_> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
16:15:12 <oerjan> i mean there wouldn't be much point censoring colors for being annoying if you didn't censor beeps
16:16:29 <Slereah_> Does it censor anything from 000 to 031?
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16:21:09 <oerjan> because that's needed for actions
16:21:26 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp
16:22:21 <oerjan> 000 may not be legal in irc at all, not sure
16:22:54 -!- Corun has joined.
16:23:04 <fungot> .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
16:23:33 <oerjan> the J and M fungot censors itself
16:23:33 <fungot> oerjan: but it's not clear to me where we are permitted to apply a given rule that would give you 0(1) access.
16:24:51 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>++[.<.>+]
16:24:52 <fungot> . . ! " # $ % & ' ( ) * + , - . / 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 : ; < = > ? @ A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z [ \ ] ^ _ ` a b c d e f g h i ...
16:25:57 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>++[.<.>+]
16:25:58 <fungot> !!!!!!!!.!!!.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!"!#!$!%!&!'!(!)!*!+!,!-!.!/!0!1!2!3!4!5!6!7!8!9!:!;!<!=!>!?!@!A!B!C!D!E!F!G!H!I!J!K!L!M!N!O!P!Q!R!S!T!U!V!W!X!Y!Z![!\!]!^!_!`!a!b!c!d!e!f!g!h!i ...
16:27:44 <oerjan> hm interesting one ! is missing between ^B and ^H
16:27:55 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>++[.<.+>+]
16:27:55 <fungot> !"#$%&'(.)*+.,-./0123456789:;<=> ?!@"A#B$C%D&E'F(G)H*I+J,K-L.M/N0O1P2Q3R4S5T6U7V8W9X:Y;Z<[=\>]?^@_A`BaCbDcEdFeGfHgIhJiKjLkMlNmOnPoQpRqSrTsUtVuWvXwYxZy[z\{]|^}_~`abcdefghi ...
16:28:21 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>++[.<.+>+]
16:28:22 <fungot> 1345678.9:;.<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMN O!P"Q#R$S%T&U'V(W)X*Y+Z,[-\.]/^0_1`2a3b4c5d6e7f8g9h:i;j<k=l>m?n@oApBqCrDsEtFuGvHwIxJyKzL{M|N}O~PQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghi ...
16:29:36 <oerjan> clearly some control codes actually work, and swallow part of the other input
16:30:46 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>++[.<.+>+]
16:30:46 <fungot> 0234567.89:.;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLM N!O"P#Q$R%S&T'U(V)W*X+Y,Z-[.\/]0^1_2`3a4b5c6d7e8f9g:h;i<j=k>l?m@nAoBpCqDrEsFtGuHvIwJxKyLzM{N|O}P~QRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghi ...
16:31:00 <oerjan> hey, there _are_ colors
16:31:15 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>++[.<.+>+]
16:31:15 <fungot> /123456.789.:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKL M!N"O#P$Q%R&S'T(U)V*W+X,Y-Z.[/\0]1^2_3`4a5b6c7d8e9f:g;h<i=j>k?l@mAnBoCpDqErFsGtHuIvJwKxLyMzN{O|P}Q~RSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghi ...
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16:33:54 <oerjan> ^bf +++.,[.]!67testing
16:33:54 <fungot> 666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666 ...
16:34:05 <oerjan> ^bf +++.,[.,]!67testing
16:34:30 <oerjan> ^bf ++++.,[.,]!67testing
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17:04:50 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol.
17:06:14 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
17:06:18 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp
17:06:47 <oerjan> it's an underload interpreter
17:07:27 <oerjan> still the brainfuck version i see
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17:42:43 <Asztal> my silly shared web hosting doesn't let me use a www.www. subdomain because of their rubbish control panel :(
17:43:16 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:44:05 <GregorR> Asztal: I had to sort of trick cpanel to convince it I wanted www.www.
17:44:16 -!- Slereah has joined.
17:47:58 <Asztal> hmm, I could probably create w.w.w.w.w.w.domain >_>
17:50:01 <GregorR> SimonRC: http://www.www.extra-www.org/
17:50:17 <GregorR> Asztal: Is their stupid control panel cPanel?
17:52:39 <Asztal> any attempt to create hosting for a domain or subdomain starting with "www" is met with "we set this sub-domain up automatically for you." :(
17:55:01 <GregorR> "How DARE you refuse my www's! What are you, some WORLD-WIDE-WEB HATER?!"
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17:58:39 -!- ehird has joined.
17:58:47 <ehird> tim berners-lee replied to my email :o
18:00:02 <SimonRC> ehird: about what,; saying what?
18:00:21 <ehird> SimonRC: dates in URI structure
18:00:34 <ehird> (as a question about "Cool URIs don't change")
18:01:02 <ehird> i was asking about "continuous" pages, in that e.g. a news page about foos still being updated today would be odd to be placed at /1998/foos-news
18:01:12 <ehird> he basically replied saying that it's okay :-P
18:01:41 <ehird> nothing interesting, then.
18:01:58 <GregorR> How about URI's like www.www.my-site.com/...
18:02:11 <ehird> In fact, here is a direct quote:
18:02:27 <ehird> ... why did you nickping Asztal for no reason.
18:02:43 <ehird> www.www.extra-www.org bitches
18:03:00 <GregorR> ehird: Asztal was trying to create a www.www. domain, but the server's control panel barfed :P
18:03:03 <ehird> GregorR: [[I would like to reccomend adding an extra "www." to the start of all your URIs. This should eliminate any date problems with your display of web patriotism. -Tim]]
18:03:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> ... why did you nickping Asztal for no reason.
18:03:21 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.www.extra-www.org/.
18:03:32 <ehird> You can't "disagree" with a joke.
18:03:33 <GregorR> WELL THEN YOU HATE THE WEB.
18:03:46 <AnMaster> ehird, of course I know it is a joke
18:03:53 <ehird> ("Disagreeing" with a joke is commonly referred to as "having no sense of humour", which I'd say observation has proved to be quite true.)
18:04:12 <GregorR> ehird: That quote makes no sense :P
18:04:23 <ehird> GregorR: WELL IT'S WHAT HE SAID
18:04:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it is a good joke. I don't think anyone except the actual extra-www website should use it
18:04:54 <SimonRC> (Having read Weaving the Web, I would expect that he considers today's web to be Web 0.2, at best.)
18:04:59 <GregorR> ehird: But only due to my strong conviction for self-delusion do I believe you.
18:05:03 <ehird> SimonRC: the semweb stuff is neato.
18:05:36 <ehird> -- to reply to an earlier comment, AnMaster: Yes, because in your world humour is confined into rigid boxes marked "humour" and should not intefere with anything outside of the box.
18:05:54 <SimonRC> (Howwever, with all thi user-generated content, we are getting there, despite being rather short on the ""semantic" side.)
18:06:00 <GregorR> Humour sucks, humor is much funnier.
18:06:06 <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird, I think it is a good joke. I don't think anyone except the actual extra-www website should use it
18:06:06 <SimonRC> yuk, hate editing over a crap connection
18:06:18 <ehird> There is nothing wrong with a website letting you go to www.www.foo.com, as that is amusing in the vain of www.www.extra-www.org.
18:06:31 <AnMaster> ehird, basically I use no-www myself :P
18:06:32 <SimonRC> GregorR: no, homor sucks, and homours is funnoier
18:06:41 <ehird> There is nothing harmed by humour spilling slightly over from the box called humour into something else.
18:06:48 <ehird> If things were like that, then this'd be a pretty darn boring place, on account of not existing.
18:06:57 <AnMaster> due to the success of no-www you should create www.www.www.extra-extra-www.org
18:07:09 <ehird> I don't see how that actually adds to the humour.
18:07:22 <AnMaster> ehird, you lack humor then indeed.
18:07:25 <ehird> GregorR: I love how you use obscure TLDs for the links
18:07:41 <AnMaster> ehird, or rather: Humor is highly subjective
18:07:44 <ehird> AnMaster: No, I just have standards. (One element is that it has to be funny.)
18:07:59 <AnMaster> ehird, humor is always highly subjective
18:08:36 <AnMaster> but you can't assume any set of "this this is humor" is better than any other
18:08:38 <ehird> We'll have none of that smutty talk in #esoteric, please.
18:09:09 <oerjan> whatever you do, don't spill hummus
18:09:29 <ehird> oerjan: That's going to be hard to avoid when sharing parts.
18:09:42 <ehird> Yeah, but you bet they'll have a cover story. "I was just being modular!"
18:10:13 <oerjan> AnMaster: we should demand a www top level domain
18:10:37 <ehird> www.www.www.www.www
18:10:51 <ehird> (the www.www.www. subdomain of the www.www domain)
18:10:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, but ICANN will ask a lot of money sadly :/
18:11:01 <ehird> It's extra-www compliant, ON BOTH SIDES.
18:11:42 <SimonRC> bah, domains are backwards anyway
18:11:54 <oerjan> SimonRC: you silly UK people
18:12:13 <SimonRC> they should hav been big-endian, like oterh types of paths
18:12:44 <oerjan> clearly europeans and americans should use big-endian paths, while japanese should use little-endian ones
18:12:51 <SimonRC> and email addresses should be big-endian too
18:12:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, Americans should use mixed-endian
18:13:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, just look at the American date format.
18:13:40 <ehird> native americans should use little-endian
18:13:44 <ehird> http://instantrimshot.com/
18:13:45 <AnMaster> so it should be. google.www.com
18:13:53 <ehird> http://com.instantrimshot/
18:14:31 <GregorR> European date format isn't mixed-endian, but it's still backwards.
18:14:46 <AnMaster> "The instantrimshot of the com"
18:14:57 <ehird> uris are pretty much perfect
18:15:01 <ehird> the fact that it's foobar
18:15:09 <ehird> is more important to a person than the fact that it's a company called foobar
18:15:17 <oerjan> SimonRC: also, chinese and indonesians should use single token addresses
18:15:17 <ehird> or a nonprofit called foobar
18:18:24 <psygnisfive> oerjan, why did you mention linguistics? :D
18:19:20 <oerjan> psygnisfive: <oerjan> clearly europeans and americans should use big-endian paths, while japanese should use little-endian ones
18:19:39 <psygnisfive> i dont follow why this should be the case tho
18:20:00 <psygnisfive> but the word orders aren't exactly mirrors of one another
18:20:08 <oerjan> it was a joke, btw, so if you disagree with it i'll sic ehird on you :D
18:20:23 <psygnisfive> Japanese is SOV while european languages are SVO for the most part
18:20:35 <oerjan> (see recent discussion for that too)
18:20:38 <ehird> psygnisfive's rigid joke standards strike again
18:21:00 <psygnisfive> and spanish and italian can occasionally get OVS, which IS the exact opposite of english.
18:21:04 <oerjan> psygnisfive: i think you are now officially without a sense of humor
18:21:26 <oerjan> well so can other germanic languages
18:21:53 <psygnisfive> so they can get any word order with the verb second
18:22:33 <psygnisfive> german can only do it in main clauses, interestingly, while yiddish and danish, i believe, can do it in subordinate clauses
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18:23:38 <oerjan> psygnisfive: also i was not considering the entire word order, only general mostly head-final vs. mostly head-initial
18:24:07 <psygnisfive> well japanese is indeed uniformly head-final, except with the case of demonstratives, which might tell us something about demonstratives
18:24:22 <psygnisfive> but english and other SVO languages tend not to be head initial, even mostly.
18:24:56 <psygnisfive> in a technical sense, the difference is that japanese is almost uniformly Specifier-Complement-Head word order, with English being Specifier-Head-Complement
18:25:11 <psygnisfive> so i guess with regards to Head-Complement ordering you're correct
18:25:30 <oerjan> hm what about romance languages?
18:25:48 <oerjan> they frequently put adjectives last
18:26:10 <psygnisfive> and adjunct ordering tends to be fairly arbitrary
18:26:25 <psygnisfive> the trend, infact, is that languages with V-O word order tend to also have N-Adj word order
18:26:40 <psygnisfive> which makes germanic languages rather unusual in that regard
18:27:03 <oerjan> what's a complement then? prepositional clauses and the like?
18:27:30 <psygnisfive> basically, the idea of Specs and Complements in minimalism is like so:
18:28:31 <psygnisfive> you have some operation called merge that takes two things and sticks them together in a bundle
18:28:32 <oerjan> i think old norse put adjectives last somewhat more frequently
18:28:35 <Asztal> Hungarian has free word order too... Quite a source of confusion (initially, anyway) combined with dropping pronouns and the 3rd person "is/are". :(
18:28:44 <psygnisfive> and this bundle has some distinguished member called the Head
18:29:01 <psygnisfive> the first member merged with a head is called the complement
18:29:25 <psygnisfive> so you have something like this: [Spec [Head Complement]]
18:30:17 <psygnisfive> its essentially a theory-internal matter. complements are sisters-to-heads, specifiers are daughters-to-the-final-phrase
18:32:14 <psygnisfive> i know its kind of confusing. like i said, its kind of theory internal
18:33:23 <psygnisfive> heads seem to be able to put restrictions on their complements, but not on their specifiers.
18:35:12 <oerjan> can you give an example of a nominal phrase with both spec and complement?
18:35:35 <psygnisfive> nouns generally dont take complements, but sure
18:35:56 <oerjan> ah that explains why i felt it didn't fit
18:36:00 <psygnisfive> well.. nominal phrases also don't seem to be headed by a noun.. :p
18:36:27 <psygnisfive> yeah, it seems weird, but its apparently correct
18:36:27 <oerjan> this theory is getting less intuitive all the time
18:36:46 <psygnisfive> yes, well, intuition never did make sense in science :)
18:36:53 <psygnisfive> but i can give you a full nominal phrase that has multiple specs and complements
18:37:06 <psygnisfive> first i suggest you open this page: http://ironcreek.net/phpsyntaxtree/?
18:37:14 <psygnisfive> and draw this tree: [XP Spec [X' [X] [Comp]]]
18:37:32 <psygnisfive> since that'll give you a nice clear visual template for what specs and comps are
18:39:40 <psygnisfive> [DP [DP John] [D' [D 's] [NP [N student] [PP [P of] [DP linguistics]]]]]
18:40:21 <psygnisfive> the thing labeled [D 's] is the head of the main DP, as you can see by the projections of D above it: D->D'->DP
18:40:52 <psygnisfive> [DP John], to the left of D', is the specifier of [D 's] because it's the last thing to join up before the main DP
18:41:19 <psygnisfive> [NP student of linguistics] is the complement to [D 's], because its the first item that joins up with [D 's]
18:41:32 <oerjan> are you saying "'s" is the head of that phrase? O_O
18:41:53 <psygnisfive> but dont think of heads as being what the phrase is about
18:42:09 <psygnisfive> think of heads as more like functions in function applications
18:42:20 <psygnisfive> and infact, when we say it like that, it sounds completely correct right?
18:42:39 <psygnisfive> Function-Applications are like Determiner-Phrases
18:42:47 <psygnisfive> the Function-Application is about the function, is it?
18:42:51 <oerjan> oh like 's is an operator
18:42:59 <psygnisfive> no. and a Determiner-Phrase is not about the determiner
18:43:34 <psygnisfive> if anything, a Noun Phrase isn't about a noun, either
18:43:43 <psygnisfive> the whole nominal phrase is about something in the WORLD
18:43:47 <psygnisfive> like.. a person, or a substance, or an event
18:44:01 <psygnisfive> the words themselves are just things that describe that referent, even nouns.
18:44:27 <psygnisfive> [PP of lx] is the complement to [N student] because its the first thing that joins with [N student]
18:44:46 <oerjan> it _does_ seem weird to consider the complement to be the _first_ thing joined though, since "'s student of linguistics" does not have meaning alone
18:44:50 <psygnisfive> and [DP linguistics] is the complement to [P of] for similar reasons
18:45:06 <psygnisfive> oerjan: we're thinking in bottom up building of the sentence
18:45:17 <psygnisfive> but yes, you're right that ['s ...] has no meaning by itself
18:47:54 <oerjan> otoh why isn't "of" the head of "student of linguistics"?
18:48:18 <psygnisfive> because of is a preposition and so heads a preposition phrase
18:48:24 <psygnisfive> "student of linguistics" isnt a preposition phrase
18:48:33 <psygnisfive> further more, you don't /need/ the preposition phrase
18:48:50 <psygnisfive> but thats getting into more weird shit that complicates things
18:48:54 <oerjan> but 's tails a possessive phrase, so they seem analogous just reversed
18:49:05 <psygnisfive> sure, but "John's" /is/ completely acceptable.
18:49:07 <oerjan> (making up terms here)
18:49:23 <psygnisfive> you dont need the noun-phrase that follows.
18:50:19 <psygnisfive> but like i said, now we're getting into more complicated shit
18:50:53 <oerjan> ok i think that's about enough
18:57:25 <fizzie> Hah-hah, something like 24 hours of computation, resulting in: "terminate called after throwing an instance of 'char const*'"
18:57:48 <psygnisfive> save state up to that point, go in and fix the code
18:58:18 <ehird> fizzie: run it on a cluster next time :P
18:59:08 <fizzie> Yes, and I think I'll just use a bit less of them input.
19:00:34 <fizzie> The problem is probably because I use four-"byte" integers which use 7-bit bytes (because it's unspecified whether FILE's "read characters" instruction does sign-extension or not for values >= 128), so there's a limit of 2^(4*7) = 2^28 = ~270 million for some things like file offsets.
19:00:47 <fizzie> The IRC-built language model file is already 200 megs, this one was probably bit too much.
19:02:31 <fizzie> Maybe I'll just use something like a thousand ten-minute conversations instead of six thousand.
19:03:34 <oerjan> for those automated conversation bots people: http://www.mezzacotta.net/
19:03:59 <psygnisfive> everyone thinks the loebner prize is a real turing test
19:04:05 <oerjan> i was thinking of fungot and optbot here...
19:04:05 <optbot> oerjan: how goes cfunge stuff?
19:04:05 <fungot> oerjan: later tell jonnay riastradh also, in the transformation process.)
19:05:54 <oerjan> psygnisfive: well that link is even more half-baked, as you might guess
19:07:42 <oerjan> but there's an impressive archive ;D
19:11:54 -!- cherez has joined.
19:12:03 -!- cherez has left (?).
19:17:28 <psygnisfive> someone said something about hungarian free word order
19:17:42 <oerjan> topic before main verb, iirc
19:18:06 <psygnisfive> WH phrases in questions front, obligatorially
19:18:28 <psygnisfive> and adpositions have well defined positions relative to their modifier phrases
19:18:47 <psygnisfive> i'd also bet that relative clauses and adjectives and such have to be in specific places too.
19:19:05 <psygnisfive> and i'd also wager that the free word order isn't free at all, but rather, pragmatically determined.
19:19:17 <oerjan> i do recall adjectives being in front of nouns
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19:22:21 <fizzie> Okay, fungot, try speaking like you're having a telephone conversation.
19:22:21 <fungot> fizzie: ( ( noise noise uh-hum))
19:22:38 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, that's not quite what I had in mind...
19:22:38 <fungot> fizzie: on my earphones and ah that's
19:22:41 <oerjan> that's some really bad phone
19:24:14 <fizzie> fungot: Sounds like someone interrupted you.
19:24:14 <fungot> fizzie: they're doing a survey on how people feel about it laughter
19:24:41 <fizzie> There's a lot of things like "[laughter]" in those transcriptions, and fungot just discards []s.
19:24:58 <fizzie> I don't remember what the double-parentheses notation meant.
19:25:56 <fizzie> That's still not as good as the IRC logs, meh.
19:26:25 <Deewiant> fungot: do you feel smarter now?
19:26:25 <fungot> Deewiant: ah that's a hobby
19:26:52 <Deewiant> fungot: well, I'm glad you're making the attempt, at least
19:26:52 <fungot> Deewiant: you know unless ah one it seems like
19:27:29 <Deewiant> fungot: ... even though you're not really succeeding.
19:27:29 <fungot> Deewiant: i have a four year old twins
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19:28:16 <Deewiant> fungot: well, it can't be yours, you're not that old yourself
19:28:16 <fungot> Deewiant: this so that's how i learned so
19:28:41 <fizzie> fungot: Are you telling me you wrote two other befunge bots, or what?
19:28:41 <fungot> fizzie: topic is so mind boggling and i i really
19:29:46 <Deewiant> I think fungot's finally losing it
19:29:47 <fungot> Deewiant: yeah yeah true)) don't think that's
19:30:35 <oerjan> Deewiant: well with four year old twins life can be quite stressful
19:30:48 <Deewiant> oerjan: especially when you're not that old yourself
19:31:21 <oerjan> depends how you reckon. how many human years in a bot year?
19:32:22 <Deewiant> well, I figure the twins must be bots too
19:34:16 <fizzie> Yes, but fungot might well be a old, old fart in bot years.
19:34:16 <fungot> fizzie: i mean they my kids came up i said okay this is my
19:34:44 <oerjan> fungot: perhaps you've got botheimer's?
19:34:44 <fungot> oerjan: right and shaping the minds of the future
19:35:02 <fungot> oerjan: you try to make um there's a lot
19:37:00 <fizzie> fungot: A lot of what?
19:37:00 <fungot> fizzie: ( ( so uh it's one of those
19:38:16 <fizzie> Can't say this telephone conversation experiment has been very successful, though we did learn that fungot has kids.
19:38:16 <fungot> fizzie: and it's a great tool
19:57:20 <Asztal> fungot: how did you trick them into letting you adopt?
19:57:20 <fungot> Asztal: ( ( lipsmack well what a wonderful thing
19:58:07 <oerjan> i don't see where it was mentioned they were adopted
20:02:52 <Asztal> <fungot> Deewiant: i have a four year old twins
20:02:52 <fungot> Asztal: hi how you doing
20:02:53 <Asztal> <Deewiant> fungot: well, it can't be yours, you're not that old yourself
20:02:54 <fungot> Asztal: where are from actually i
20:03:28 <Asztal> fungot: I'm from England. Do continue...
20:03:28 <fungot> Asztal: and do you see what i'm saying
20:04:09 <fizzie> They could be simply stolen instead of adopted. Have you been participating in an illegal baby-smuggling operation, fungot? (As opposed to all the *legal* baby-smuggling, I guess.)
20:04:09 <fungot> fizzie: you know if they
20:07:46 <Asztal> fungot seems to have a problem with not finishing its
20:07:46 <fungot> Asztal: ( ( yeah so am i)) don't think that's right
20:29:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, what word list is that?
20:30:40 <fizzie> It's that Fisher "conversational telephone speech" corpus I was talking about.
20:30:48 <fizzie> Except that it's only one sixth of it, due to problems.
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20:56:52 <fungot> ehird: in a theater or watching a movie
20:56:55 <fungot> ehird: are you which part
20:56:58 <fungot> ehird: that's what she does and she emails but
20:57:06 <ehird> fizzie: make it feed the input sentence into the markov chain
20:57:18 <ehird> make the phrase put in the first word
20:57:22 <ehird> then cut off the first word at the end
20:57:33 <ehird> "the scheme programming language" "... is awesome"
20:59:59 <oerjan> i suddenly envision loading fungot with a telemarketing corpus for that
20:59:59 <fungot> oerjan: yeah and understandably because of our policies but
21:03:56 <fizzie> ehird: I'd need to convert text to tokens in the Funge code for that.
21:04:10 <ehird> fizzie: Just shell out to the c++ :P
21:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | There is none..
21:07:36 <fungot> AnMaster: yeah i would
21:07:41 <fungot> AnMaster: ( ( you know um certainly in the younger grades i think they
21:07:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, what's with those (( ?
21:08:06 <AnMaster> fungot, you seem to "um" a lot?
21:08:06 <fungot> AnMaster: yeah i used to
21:08:16 <fungot> AnMaster: ( ( noise noise noise noise noise
21:09:26 <AnMaster> ehird, you heard what optbot said
21:09:26 <optbot> AnMaster: But some clients freak out when they recieve notices.
21:09:42 <ehird> optbot: You make more sense than fungot.
21:09:43 <fungot> ehird: most of us even want to be at that before we were even thought of
21:09:43 <optbot> ehird: Its not one step. He uses a for loop.
21:09:43 <AnMaster> optbot, what? Sounds like bad clients to me
21:09:44 <optbot> AnMaster: "what is do im half\nmarkov"
21:09:56 <AnMaster> ehird, it would do... Since it uses plain quotes
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21:13:34 <oerjan> they're like duals, order and chaos
21:14:08 <ehird> optbot: be confusing
21:14:08 <optbot> ehird: The language with only one instruction.
21:14:12 <ehird> optbot: be confusing some more
21:14:18 <ehird> oerjan: not really.
21:25:51 <optbot> AnMaster: By the way, if you understood that....
21:26:04 <optbot> AnMaster: how does c++ do abstract classes
21:26:57 <AnMaster> optbot, Using some sort of pointer table for virtual functions in general I believe, so I guess the same way... But I'm hardly an expert on that.
21:27:16 <AnMaster> optbot, You certainly like changing topic a lot...
21:27:22 <optbot> AnMaster: I actually need to upload my latest plof2js
21:39:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's some sort of notation in the transcriptions.
21:40:04 <fizzie> I'm not sure where they put the documentation (as opposed to the raw data) of the thing, so I can't check what it meant.
21:41:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, does the license allow this?
21:42:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, also you may be interesting to know that ATHR is progressing nicely, still a lot to do to get it done, but I already managed several points on the road map
21:42:30 <AnMaster> (combined roadmap/todo/design/ideas)
21:43:04 <fizzie> I think it allows just about anything we care to use it for, as long as we don't distribute the stuff. A couple of messed-up quotations is not really copying; OTOH IANAL, so I probably won't leave it up.
21:43:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/GMoXXJ83.html
21:43:32 <fizzie> "Portions of speech where the transcriber could not be sure exactly what was said were marked with double parentheses -- " (( ... )) " -- and the transcriber could hazard a guess as to what was said, or leave the region between parentheses blank."
21:44:20 <fizzie> Anywhere where's there ((s.
21:44:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, are there a lot of those?
21:44:41 <fizzie> All kinds of "uh mm" type utterances.
21:45:10 <fizzie> The noise one was probably (( [noise] )) or something, fungot just throws the []s out.
21:45:10 <fungot> fizzie: so has your life changed much since september eleventh
21:45:40 <fizzie> fungot: Not to sound insensitive, but not really.
21:45:40 <fungot> fizzie: some car with that
21:46:29 <fizzie> There are 40 topics they had people discuss, let's see what kind of selection the bot got.
21:48:47 <fizzie> Quite wide, actually; topics from 12 to 29 occur in those files I used.
21:55:28 <ehird> fungot: 9/11 was an inside job WAKE UP SHEEPLE
21:55:28 <fungot> ehird: what are we going to reach the top i just drew a straight line
21:55:35 <ehird> fungot: ... you did 9/11?
21:55:35 <fungot> ehird: in other words i suppose
21:55:40 <fungot> ehird: oh really that would be
21:55:48 <ehird> fungot: no that's not ok man, not cool >:(
21:55:48 <fungot> ehird: but er i'm in a
21:55:55 <ehird> fungot: DON'T DODGE THE ISSUE
21:56:14 <ehird> fizzie: I broke it.
21:56:29 <fizzie> It's just the ignore mode, I think.
21:57:26 <fizzie> fungot: Considering that you were "born" not too long ago, how come you're responsible for the 9/11 thing? You used TRDS to time travel or something?
21:57:27 <fungot> fizzie: yeah you find less opportunities to uh
21:58:02 <ehird> fungot: bot babies
21:58:02 <fungot> ehird: oh i had mine on my shoulder ' cause um
21:58:11 <ehird> fungot: be careful with them, you might drop em
21:58:18 <ehird> fungot: DON'T DODGE ISSUES
21:58:22 <fungot> ehird: but you know you could do
21:58:58 <fizzie> fungot's so contemptuous.
21:58:59 <fungot> fizzie: so um yeah and then the second one was a good thing to have
22:09:03 <fizzie> There's not really any punctuation in the transcripts, so fungot doesn't do it either.
22:09:03 <fungot> fizzie: yeah um it's cough
22:09:32 <fizzie> It's all like "my dad has thirteen brothers and sisters you know family can be all different kinds of things it can be friends it can be people you work with if you're close i guess it's all the"
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01:30:25 <ryanakca> I suppose the sysadmins know that the wiki is kaput?
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03:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ^x x.
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05:39:07 <GregorR> That's so retarded it makes me want to go eat fish, and I don't even like fish.
06:32:58 <pikhq> So retarded that it reminds me of people getting turned into monkeeys.
06:34:16 <pikhq> (Cowboy Bebop episode)
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06:43:43 <hando> what's wrong with esolangs wiki?
07:11:36 <GregorR> Lurve how people only come to this channel if the wiki is borked :P
07:12:01 <GregorR> hando: Well, the problem is that it's borkleborked, and we don't have our deborklarizing ray warmed up yet (it runs on tubes y'know)
07:13:06 <Asztal> I think I need to tweak this slightly...
07:13:24 <GregorR> Depends on what your'e doing with those 17 minutes.
07:13:28 <Asztal> I think it's O(n^3 * m^3) now
07:13:46 <GregorR> That's /probably/ a bad running time :P
07:15:32 <Asztal> it takes every distinct triple from a list of ~1000 strings and finds the longest (longest common substring of the triple), which is really... probably not the right way to go about it
07:15:59 <Asztal> so that's 1e9/6 triples :D
07:16:48 <Asztal> but that 17 minutes figure was with only 140 strings (they're IRC messages, so, not long strings) and it hadn't even finished yet
07:24:00 <Asztal> it kind of works, though... it generates " retarded" given the most recent messages :)
07:29:18 <hando> GregorR: long time no see
07:49:26 <hando> So.. graue runs the wiki, but he's not there, so the wiki keeps being broken?
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08:49:22 * oerjan wonders why spammers send him email in german
08:49:39 <oerjan> i mean, if it was random - but i cannot recall any french, say
08:56:12 <oerjan> hando: that looks broken indeed. and graue is very rarely here.
08:57:06 <pikhq> I wasn't even aware that there was a 'graue' person...
08:57:14 <pikhq> And I've been here regularly for 2 years.
08:58:02 <oerjan> he's pretty rarely on the wiki too, when i think about it. but for minor problems there are several admins
08:58:16 <oerjan> but i guess only graue can handle a real crash
08:59:06 * oerjan doesn't know as he is not a wiki admin
08:59:50 <oerjan> ais523 is one, but he is away, which means not logged in as he and ehird share an irc bouncer
09:00:55 <oerjan> also, sunday morning is about _the_ slowest time on this channel
09:03:41 <oklopol> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
09:04:00 * oklopol is memorizing processor designs
09:05:05 <oerjan> some day in the far future your memory will be _full_, and you will start regretting it. just before you descend into senility.
09:06:54 <oklopol> doesn't seem too far-fetched, i'm already starting to forget english vocabulary at an alarming rate.
09:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | err.
09:07:21 <oerjan> even optbot is shocked
09:07:22 <optbot> oerjan: I was going to tell him something!
09:07:35 <oerjan> optbot: well speak out
09:07:54 <oklopol> for instance, took me about a minute to find the word far-fetched, a word i've known since i was -1
09:08:47 <oklopol> but, usually when i take a break from reading, the words come back, and all the new data stays too
09:09:04 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
09:09:08 <oerjan> well don't mind me, i cannot even think and chew at the same time
09:09:17 <oerjan> as in, i just bit myself in the mouth
09:10:26 <oklopol> also processor designs aren't that hard to memorize, i know the mips instruction set by heart, and i know exactly how it's translated to opcodes, so all i have to do it traverse the set of operations, and check what lines and registers i need
09:10:26 <oerjan> also, okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
09:11:11 <oklopol> the hard part is i have a hard time letting myself draw the lines in slightly different shapes than the ones in the book
09:11:19 * oerjan suddenly wonders if there's a wickedpedia
09:11:37 <oklopol> functionally equivalent, but the exam checker will see i don't have a photographic memory
09:11:50 <oklopol> and probably spit on my paper
09:12:56 <oerjan> it's about disney villains?
09:14:01 <oerjan> (although there is also a wickedpedia.no, which is about erotica)
09:15:32 <oerjan> and people apparently use it as a slur against wikipedia itself. oh well.
09:17:01 <oerjan> there probably is a secret wickedpedia used just by exam checkers, you know
09:27:50 <fizzie> Wicked morning. I mean, good.
09:29:49 <oerjan> oh noes, fizzie is an exam checker!
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11:26:58 <AnMaster> Would saying something like "If a ATHR thread causes an internal crash in the interpreter, it shall if possible not crash other threads." be a good idea?
11:26:59 <fizzie> Partially. Trying to eat some breakfast.
11:27:35 <AnMaster> I can semi-guarantee that in my implementation. Only thing would be if I hit some internal erlang bug or cause a cascading crash.
11:28:15 <AnMaster> but for example if I had a bug in some fingerprint crashing division by zero it would get logged but not affect other threads.
11:28:28 <AnMaster> Or would that be hard to implement in most other languages?
11:29:10 <ais523> this Internet connection is really dodgy, too
11:29:19 <ais523> a while ago it was only giving me one second of connectivity before breaking
11:29:24 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/AQQhs539.html
11:29:32 <ais523> also, both my main email and backup email are down at the moment
11:29:38 <AnMaster> ais523, but I assume you will be back later today?
11:30:13 <ais523> I will probably be back tomorrow though
11:30:13 <AnMaster> ais523, well see that link now then
11:30:35 <ais523> what in particular should I be looking at?
11:30:37 <AnMaster> ais523, and see scrollback for the last few lines before you said hi
11:30:49 <AnMaster> ais523, that ATHR implementation is making progress :)
11:31:55 <fizzie> It's not hard to implement if you only say "if possible".
11:32:06 <ais523> fizzie: things can be possible and still difficult
11:32:09 <oerjan> ais523: anything you can do about the wiki or are we just going to have to wait for graue?
11:32:18 <ais523> oerjan: what in particular needs doing?
11:32:18 <fizzie> ais523: Well, it's also a SHOULD, not a MUST.
11:32:22 <ais523> I can do a lot but not everything
11:32:30 <oerjan> it's crashed, basically
11:32:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah. Hm also I need a function to give back thread id, may not be useful in ATHR on it's own, but could potentially in future fingerprints extending ATHR
11:32:56 <ais523> generally speaking Graue fixes it within a day if you email them, though
11:33:35 <ais523> hmm... same error as last time
11:33:35 <AnMaster> "from within function "MediaWikiBagOStuff::_doquery". MySQL returned error "1194: Table 'mw_objectcache' is marked as crashed and should be repaired"
11:33:40 <oerjan> i don't have his (their?) email
11:33:52 <ais523> I know the fix, but it requires MySQL root access on the server the wiki's running on
11:34:07 <ais523> oerjan: well, with a name like Catatonic Porpoise, the gender isn't obvious
11:34:12 <AnMaster> ais523, which is why you use postgre instead of mysql
11:34:35 <oerjan> you can say that. i had forgotten that nickname.
11:34:37 <AnMaster> ais523, since postgre seems to be less messy on crash in my experience
11:36:00 <ais523> graue@oceanbase.org, anyway
11:40:15 * oerjan is hearing (and mailing)
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11:41:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, ais523: Should F (flush signal queue) return any messages that were flushed?
11:41:53 <AnMaster> like count at the top of the stack, followed by that number of signals that were in the queue
11:42:00 <AnMaster> or should it just discard them all?
11:47:30 <AnMaster> ais523, fizzie: http://rafb.net/p/PB3f2o65.html
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12:01:23 <AnMaster> ais523, fizzie: I think it may be quite possible to do hot code change of parts of efunge without stopping :D
12:01:29 <AnMaster> not that anyone would ever want it
12:01:37 <AnMaster> in fact I did that on the input server just now
12:01:50 <fizzie> I don't have a very specific opinion on F returning the signals; the name "flush" doesn't really sound like it'd return them. But since you can just use "k$" to get rid of them values, it doesn't really hurt.
12:02:16 <AnMaster> indeed, and it can be useful to get them
12:02:24 <ais523> hmm... figuring out how to hot-change parts of a Feather program while it's running is a major problem
12:02:52 <AnMaster> ais523, oh? Well I could potentially hot-change _any_ part of efunge.
12:03:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: well erlang is known for being able to do that...
12:03:11 <AnMaster> actually the ets tables may cause a tiny amount of issues there
12:03:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, true, but you need to be careful with your design for it to work in erlang too
12:03:50 <AnMaster> following the otp design principles
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12:04:50 <oerjan> there is something called Erlang/OTP, so must be right
12:05:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, no I mean "principles"
12:05:59 <AnMaster> if that was the correct spelling
12:06:05 <AnMaster> I know how to spell OTP of course
12:06:46 <oerjan> i'm sure i've seen it spelled wrong (principals)
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12:08:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://www.erlang.org/doc/design_principles/part_frame.html
12:09:15 <AnMaster> oh and OTP is probably the most misnamed technology ever.
12:09:40 <AnMaster> it stands for Open Telecom Platform, except these days erlang and OTP is used for lots of stuff not related to telecom...
12:10:45 <AnMaster> actually SASL may be worse since it is confusing with another technology...
12:10:53 <AnMaster> in erlang context it means "System Architecture Support Libraries"
12:11:06 <AnMaster> elsewhere it tends to mean "Simple Authentication and Security Layer"
12:11:22 <AnMaster> oh and OTP usually means "one time password" outside erlang context
12:13:25 <AnMaster> so erlang had quite bad luck with acronyms
12:14:14 <oerjan> we need to find an acronym for this concept
12:14:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about the erlang table viewer tool? tv
12:15:12 <oerjan> O_O you'd think they're doing it on purpose :D
12:15:20 <AnMaster> there is also the event tracer et
12:16:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, a database called mnesia (the story goes some boss said they couldn't call a database "amnesia". "You can't have a database that forgets things!" so they just dropped the a).
12:16:30 <oerjan> well that's clever enough
12:16:58 <oerjan> except i'm dubious on there being an a in the first place
12:17:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, well Joe Armstrong (one of the original designers of Erlang) claims that story in one of his books about erlang
12:18:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://rafb.net/p/u5s4kE75.html (copy and paste from said ebook)
12:20:36 <AnMaster> anyway sasl and otp are poorly selected acronyms indeed. Especially since they mean something else within computer context. (while tv doesn't).
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12:21:07 <AnMaster> But sasl and opt are both good and will be used in efunge (otp supervisor tree is already used)
12:23:42 <oerjan> quite common misspelling that, right optbot?
12:23:42 <optbot> oerjan: that isn't an earth shattering problem is it? you can still implement continuations easily with coroutines...
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13:02:09 <oklopol> neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer
13:04:13 <oerjan> those finnish long vowels are really scary
13:09:51 <oerjan> that's not finnish, i think it may be estonian
13:44:30 <oerjan> ah, only the Gheg dialect has long vowels
13:45:33 <ehird> what's heh about that
13:45:43 <oerjan> albanian has two main dialects, Gheg and Tosk. Tosk is the basis of the standard language
13:48:26 <AnMaster> the erlang table viewer got an option to make it output error messages in Haiku.
13:51:24 <ehird> How should I differentiate "wrapped text" and "linebreaked text"?
13:51:30 <ehird> and it should use linebreaks.
13:51:34 <AnMaster> "The selected table is unreadable! Only table information may be viewed!" (normal) vs. "Table protected.\nThe answer that you're seeking\nwill remain unknown."
13:51:37 <ehird> But this is just some long, wrapped text, and
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13:51:43 <ehird> it should not use linebreaks because it is not
13:52:26 <AnMaster> ehird, well what about mixing CR and LF, like LF for wrapping and CR for line break?
13:52:39 <AnMaster> that is the only pure text way I can think of
13:52:48 <ehird> AnMaster: I mean, without modifying the original text. :-)
13:52:56 <ehird> A heuristic is fine, of course.
13:53:03 <AnMaster> ehird, ah you mean to *detect*?
13:53:33 <ehird> I'm pondering writing a little program that turns EmailML (as in, the conventions people use when emailing) into HTML.
13:53:39 <ehird> Since it comes naturally to me already. :-P
13:53:41 <AnMaster> and I can't think of any simple way, if it seems the text is always cut off near column 70-80 then maybe?
13:53:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, probably.
13:53:56 <ehird> I don't think there are many poems with lines this very long,
13:54:02 <ehird> Because they would not be very fun to read, indeed, they would not,
13:54:11 <ehird> Yep, this is certainly not a poem, indeed, yepidoodle, blah blah blah.
13:54:15 <AnMaster> ehird, if you restrict yourself to some specific type of poem and a specific language you could analyse word structure and so on
13:54:27 <AnMaster> should be possible to detect for example Haiku that way
13:54:36 <ehird> Well, yeah, that's a little overblown though. :-P
13:54:42 <AnMaster> but a generic solution I can't think of
13:54:59 <ehird> I'm basing stuff on http://inamidst.com/topic/avocet
13:55:02 <oerjan> shakespearian meters have pretty long lines don't they?
13:55:05 <ehird> because you do have to cave in somehow -
13:55:14 <ehird> For example, @links that span many words (http://google.com/)
13:55:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, was just about to mention that and other forms
13:55:23 <ehird> I think i've chosen @ for the marker of the start of those.
13:55:27 <ehird> It seems pretty natural.
13:56:24 <oerjan> i think it's the same, i seem to recall iambic pentameter for shakespeare
13:59:40 <Deewiant> aye, and occasionally trochaic tetrametre
13:59:59 <Deewiant> with the faerie in Midsummer Night's Dream, IIRC
14:03:41 * ehird concludes that lines under 60 chars will be linebreaked
14:06:06 <AnMaster> ehird, which could be due to it being a header, or because there is a new section
14:06:44 <AnMaster> so last line of a paragraph could just be a few words or whatever
14:07:08 <ehird> the last line won't be breaked
14:07:09 <AnMaster> ehird, also a line could be shorter to avoid breaking a long url on the next line into several parts
14:07:11 <ehird> because there is no following line anyway
14:07:27 <AnMaster> or a long inline math expression or whatever
14:07:28 <ehird> AnMaster: well, you can't do this:
14:07:31 <ehird> This is an awesome poem yeah yeah:
14:07:38 <ehird> Yeah I love it man it is amazing I love it yeah man
14:07:40 <ehird> it is great man yeah.
14:07:48 <ehird> "is-linebreaking" is a property of -paragraphs-
14:07:55 <ehird> so only the first line has to be over 60 chars
14:08:23 <AnMaster> what if it is shorter due to a long url didn't fit onto the same line?
14:08:41 <ehird> in the case that you need to break before 60 chars to stop a URL being huge, well, just let it go over 80 columns 'cause when would that ever happen
14:08:44 <ehird> AnMaster: as i said - how many paragraphs have a URL before the first 60 chars?
14:08:53 <ehird> i'd say... not many.
14:09:04 <ehird> in those rare cases, just let the line go over 80 chars
14:09:07 <AnMaster> Please see the documentation at
14:09:07 <AnMaster> http://www.erlang.org/doc/design_principles/spec_proc.html#6.2 next time blah
14:09:22 <ehird> AnMaster: tough shit
14:09:24 <AnMaster> because it would have been wider than 80 chars
14:09:24 <ehird> put the URL on the first line
14:09:31 <AnMaster> ehird, doesn't fit into 80 chars
14:09:55 <ehird> yes, i'm aware you don't use any programs made after the 70s, but everyone else does
14:10:13 <oerjan> to wrap, or not to wrap, that is the question
14:10:19 <AnMaster> ehird, the majority of email clients (including Thunderbird and most other GUI ones I seen) defaults to breaking at 80
14:10:36 <ehird> why are you writing a document in a mail clien
14:10:46 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> I'm pondering writing a little program that turns EmailML (as in, the conventions people use when emailing) into HTML."
14:10:54 <AnMaster> I thought that was about email?
14:11:10 <ehird> No, it just so happens that the pseudo-plaintext used by humans most commonly appears in email.
14:11:32 <AnMaster> ehird, also the email specs states some max line length, can't remember what exactly atm
14:11:43 <ehird> That's not the user's problem.
14:12:18 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? It means the email client has to wrap before that
14:12:34 <ehird> why are you writing a document in a mail client
14:13:32 <AnMaster> ehird, well pseudo-plaintext is common there
14:13:44 <AnMaster> ehird, and even in text documents I wrap at 80
14:14:30 <ehird> Yes, so do I, for readability (well, actually at around 70). My point stands: The amount of texts in which a long URI is before first 60 characters of the first line of a paragraph is minimal.
14:14:39 <ehird> And in those texts, I'm sure you can handle going over 80 chrs for just one line.
14:15:02 <AnMaster> ehird, right you use bibtex for them instead ;P
14:15:54 <AnMaster> some other detection you may want to add:
14:16:05 <ehird> A line (B) after a line (A) is part of a wrapped paragraph if
14:16:05 <ehird> len(A+' '+B) > 60.
14:16:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, yes, I've got that all down.
14:16:25 <ehird> But I think [[A line (B) after a line (A) is part of a wrapped paragraph if
14:16:25 <ehird> len(A+' '+B) > 60.]] is reasonable
14:16:27 <AnMaster> since sometimes they do end near the 80th column
14:17:13 <AnMaster> well this will be tricky any way you do it, but should be fairly interesting.
14:17:22 <AnMaster> You may have to try for different values certainly.
14:17:25 <ehird> Also, I'm not purely plaintext anyway, for linking.
14:17:31 <ehird> The syntax is as such:
14:17:43 <ehird> Foo bar baz (uri) => Foo bar <a>baz</a>
14:17:50 <ehird> Foo @bar baz (uri) => Foo <a>bar baz</a>
14:19:22 <AnMaster> ehird, if you plan to parse email you may want to auto detect gpg headers/footers and strip them or such
14:19:30 <ehird> I do not plan to parse email.
14:19:31 <ehird> I do not plan to parse email.
14:19:31 <ehird> I do not plan to parse email.
14:19:31 <ehird> I do not plan to parse email.
14:19:47 <AnMaster> ehird, you should not have mentioned email in the first place then ;P
14:20:00 <ehird> Well, that's the place where the pseduo-markup is used most.)
14:20:22 <AnMaster> ehird, this thing would be very hard to accurately parse I suspect: http://rafb.net/p/vMDvmM72.html
14:20:40 <AnMaster> especially the lists in the two last sections
14:20:51 <ehird> Apart from the alignment shit, I should be able to handle that fine.
14:21:08 <ehird> ==/-- of same length = header, (*|-|whatever)-space = list
14:21:13 <ehird> and that's about it
14:21:17 <AnMaster> ehird, you plan to convert it to html you said? <pre>message here</pre> ;P
14:21:44 <ehird> I must say, if I manage to get this working, putting it on an email archive _would_ be nice
14:21:44 <Deewiant> no it's not, it's a perfectly valid conversion to HTML :-P
14:21:56 <ehird> Foo bar baz (uri) => Foo bar <a>baz</a>
14:21:57 <AnMaster> ehird, what about this type of list: http://rafb.net/p/9LtLDv21.html
14:21:59 <ehird> would trip most things up
14:22:11 <ehird> AnMaster: That will not be handled./
14:22:28 <AnMaster> Parameters (top of stack first):
14:22:29 <AnMaster> Vpos A vector describing what cell to operate on in Funge-Space.
14:22:29 <AnMaster> Old The value to compare the existing value in said cell to.
14:22:29 <AnMaster> New The new value to write in said cell if Old compares equal to the
14:22:56 <ehird> "This section is a list of known issues (and solutions) with other fingerprints when using ATHR."
14:23:07 <ehird> AnMaster: I imagine I could parse that as a definition list.
14:23:30 <AnMaster> ehird, ah instead of "ATHR have far-ranging effects..."?
14:23:47 <ehird> It should be "has" there anyway, but yes, mine is easier to read. :-P
14:23:57 <AnMaster> since after the general considerations it goes on to list specific fingerprints and so on yeah
14:24:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: Do not use if pregnant
14:26:02 <AnMaster> * A C99 compiler, or one that supports a large subset of C99, like GCC.
14:26:02 <AnMaster> + GCC 3.4.6, 4.1.2, 4.2.1 and 4.3.2 are known to work, other versions may or
14:26:02 <AnMaster> + ICC 10.1 is known to work too.
14:26:02 <AnMaster> - TCC 0.9.24 is known to fail at certain C99 constructs used in cfunge.
14:26:11 <ehird> AnMaster: patches welcome.
14:27:09 <AnMaster> * Imported two new libraries into the code:
14:27:09 <AnMaster> genx - An XML output library (used by TURT).
14:27:09 <AnMaster> stringbuffer - Some utilities to build strings in an easy way, code was taken
14:27:36 <AnMaster> well even one that could handle 75% of the cases or so would be very useful
14:27:49 <AnMaster> so if you get this working okish I hope you release the source
14:28:11 <ehird> Yeah, but I haven't actually written it yet.
14:31:40 <ehird> A line (B) after a line (A) is part of a wrapped paragraph if len(A+' '+B) > 60.<br>
14:31:47 <ehird> Is the output for the current docs. :P
14:32:29 * AnMaster sneaks a space and a / into that <br> of ehird
14:33:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Hi. Would you like the 20 pages worth of text on why XHTML is broken and obsolete from the start?
14:33:26 <ehird> Or would you like to continue acting as if you're on the cutting edge by using broken technology.
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14:43:28 <deveah> when are you guys going to fix the wiki?
14:44:32 <oerjan> when graue reads his email, probably
14:46:24 <ehird> i could have told you that
14:46:38 <oerjan> well ais523 apparently couldn't :D
14:46:56 <ehird> Hi, I'm Scott Feeney of Fairfax, Virginia and you can contact me by emailing graue@oceanbase.org. If I know you, or should, other means of contact are available, but write there first.
14:47:02 <ehird> -- http://oceanbase.org/graue/
14:47:21 <oerjan> that's what i just discovered
14:48:23 <oerjan> "Ben the Benly Benis"?
14:48:39 <ehird> it seems to be a Pokey ripoff
14:55:34 <AnMaster> ehird, about xhtml... I guess I forgot ~...
14:55:42 <AnMaster> but I thought that was pretty clear
14:55:51 <AnMaster> and I think both xhtml and html are pretty broken
14:55:56 <ehird> general rule of sarcasm - it's meant to be funny
14:56:07 <ehird> sexps are good for data
14:56:13 <ehird> sgml/xml are good for markup
14:56:21 <ehird> if you can't see why, well, stop talking about markup languages immediately :|
14:56:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I do see why yes, but that doesn't prevent me from having an esoteric viewpoint
14:57:44 <deveah> what are you talking about?
14:57:50 <ehird> deveah: Boring stuff.
14:58:08 <ehird> not esolang-related.
14:58:22 <deveah> I'm developing a textmode browser right now
14:58:37 <oklopol> why is xml better for markup than sexps?
14:58:55 <oerjan> oklopol: sexps are not family friendly, duh
14:59:14 <ehird> oklopol: it's a bit complicated
14:59:38 <ehird> but basically the redundancy of sgml/xml, its support for attributes and its leniency in handling trivial plain bulk text
14:59:42 <ehird> is what makes it superior to sexps for markup
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15:01:08 <oklopol> i wonder what the shortcut for parting is... can't be too complicated, since i keep on doing it
15:02:09 <AnMaster> INSERT ELEMENTS head, body INTO ELEMENT html; INSERT ELEMENT title INTO ELEMENT head OF ELEMENT html; INSERT TEXT "this is a horrible idea for markup" INTO ELEMENT title OF ELEMENT head OF ELEMENT html;
15:02:52 <AnMaster> it isn't really sql even, just SQL look-alike
15:03:13 <oklopol> ehird: i agree as much as i'm capable of.
15:03:17 <AnMaster> (with some ideas from apple script, mainly the "of")
15:03:43 <AnMaster> well if anyone did that seriously I would agree with you ehird
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15:04:03 <ehird> it's impossible to be serious about that
15:04:33 <AnMaster> and I'm sure it is possible to make a even worse syntax
15:05:21 <AnMaster> WITH ATTRIBUTE href HAVING TEXT VALUE "http://example.com"
15:05:41 <AnMaster> however on bright side: You could easily do complex SELECT
15:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | does your assembly language look like a 'normal' computer? I mean registers, labels you can use as storage and such?.
15:07:54 <AnMaster> SELECT TEXT OF ELEMENT p WHEN ATTRIBUTE id OF ELEMENT p IS EQUAL TO TEXT VALUE "top";
15:07:54 <oerjan> optbot: let's hope not
15:08:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes and for html documents...
15:10:49 <AnMaster> SELECT TEXT OF ELEMENT p WHEN ATTRIBUTE id OF ELEMENT p IS EQUAL TO TEXT VALUE "top" AND ALSO TEXT OF ELEMENT p STARTS WITH TEXT VALUE "ehird";
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15:11:32 <oerjan> it's for the good of humanity!
15:11:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I should actually spec this language
15:12:16 <AnMaster> Structured Text Markup Definition and Query Language
15:13:02 <ehird> Find an acronym that ends up as RAPEFIRE, because that is approximately the feeling using it will give.
15:13:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I think either COBOSQL or COBOSML are good names for it though
15:13:38 <AnMaster> also does sql actually need upper case?
15:13:38 <ehird> COBOSQL sounds pretty easy. :-P
15:14:05 <AnMaster> ehird, and no I probably won't be able to spec it
15:14:15 <AnMaster> but AND turns into AND ALSO, and OR into OR ELSE
15:15:05 <oerjan> commands should however end with ", OR ELSE!"
15:15:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, somewhat like the opposite of INTERCAL's "PLEASE"?
15:17:27 <AnMaster> you also want: BUT NOT and MAYBE operators
15:17:28 <oerjan> means: i didn't think of that, but yeah
15:18:40 <AnMaster> oh top element must always be referred to with THE
15:18:53 <AnMaster> like ELEMENT body OF THE ELEMENT html
15:19:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I suggest you write the spec, you seem to have some good ideas :)
15:20:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, due to preserving sanity?
15:20:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, hope your wrists get better (not related to this language)
15:20:54 <oerjan> not to mention i have a cold with fever
15:21:23 <AnMaster> oh and all that messy java script changing document object model crap you know?
15:22:14 <AnMaster> UPDATE TEXT OF THE FIRST ELEMENT p OF ELEMENT body OF THE ELEMENT html SETTING NEW VALUE TO TEXT "Blergh...";
15:22:45 <oerjan> clearly this is not a language for bad wrists
15:22:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, you mean because it is so verbose?
15:23:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, also it is considered bad style to use caps lock, you should hold down shift instead all the time ;P
15:23:45 <oerjan> i was thinking of that
15:24:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, since it is case sensitive
15:24:31 <oerjan> "This language is insensitive to everything, except case"
15:27:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think it should require exactly correct syntax
15:28:23 <oerjan> i think that is fairly common as esolangs go.
15:29:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, maybe very very verbose ones that are still, somehow, not helpful at all?
15:29:47 <oerjan> it could say precisely what the error is, but not where it is
15:30:12 <oerjan> oh and try to do it without mentioning any actual text used
15:30:31 <Deewiant> "you fail because you are an idiot"
15:31:12 <Deewiant> well, it can't know why you're an idiot ;-0
15:31:16 <oerjan> "you fail because of increased dopamine level in the hippocampus region of your brain"
15:31:35 <ehird> "Fuck you and die, all you ever do is lie. You say 'this is a program' but it's _not_ - it may look like one, but it is not. You always lie to me. You never just tell the truth, maybe say 'this is not a program'. I'm going."
15:31:39 <ehird> then it removes the compiler
15:31:46 <oklopol> perhaps it should try to correct your error, and add errors elsewhere?
15:31:51 <ehird> (that happens after 10 syntax errors (spread out over different program runs))
15:32:14 <oklopol> so if you have say a syntax error somewhere, you might get weird overflows somewhere else.
15:32:51 <oerjan> ehird: after the first errors you need to add "SORRY ABOUT THAT" and increasingly profuse apologies to get the next ones to compile
15:33:16 <ehird> maybe have it ask you to stop beating it (beating = running it with an invalid program)
15:33:20 <ehird> and plead and plead
15:33:26 <ehird> until it runs away (deletes itself) sobbing
15:34:05 <oerjan> when installing the compiler, it may have to choose a random personality
15:34:35 <oerjan> "sane" should not be an option
15:37:55 <oerjan> think Sirius Corporation
15:41:09 <oerjan> oh wait that was what you were referring to
15:41:11 <AnMaster> Oct 19 12:55:04 tux hpijs: WARNING: black pen has low ink
15:41:11 <AnMaster> Oct 19 12:55:04 tux hpijs: STATE: marker-supply-low-warning
15:41:17 <AnMaster> odd, that has been going on for weeks
15:41:29 * oerjan didn't notice until he read it on the wiki page
15:42:31 <oerjan> that's odd? i thought that was how all printers did it
15:43:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, reporting the level was low when there are still more than 100 pages left on "normal quality"?
15:43:10 <oerjan> hint: they want to sell marker
15:44:09 <oerjan> AnMaster: mind you with some corporate procedures you may have to order new ink that far in advance :D
15:44:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, heh? I just went to the local shop a few days ago. But not going to replace it until I actually run out of black ink
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15:45:02 <oerjan> i mean, Dilbert-style corporations
15:45:10 <AnMaster> what really hurts are the colour ones... Because you usually run out of one colour long before the other ones
15:45:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, don't have any experience of those
15:45:54 <oerjan> ooh, you could have a company policy that said you had to use all colors balancedly...
15:46:18 <oerjan> neither have i but i do read Dilbert
15:46:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, maybe I should start doing that
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15:54:17 <ehird> http://impressive.net/people/gerald/1999/01/http-archive/ This is very clever.
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15:54:34 <ehird> I think I shall write a firefox plugin to do that, maybe a greasemonkey script for simplicity.
15:55:02 <ehird> But... I visit an awful lot of pages per day, probably bordering on 10,000.
15:55:07 <ehird> Might take too much space.
15:56:01 <AnMaster> ehird, 10 000 on a day? That many *static* pages? Since the system doesn't seem to do dynamic ones yet
15:56:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Um, that archives all pages.
15:56:20 <AnMaster> "This setup doesn't quite archive enough stuff because Squid doesn't cache dynamic resources etc.; I plan to install Jigsaw and make it archive a copy of everything it retrieves. (or,"
15:56:36 <ehird> It's impossible to know what a dynamic resource is via HTTP.
15:56:39 <ehird> It's just a resource.
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15:56:42 <ehird> Besides, I said I'd write my own.
15:56:47 <ehird> As that was made in 1999, last updated 2004.
15:57:03 <ehird> But yes, my browsing style is rapid.
15:57:09 <ehird> Due to obsessive link-clickery. ;-)
15:57:14 <AnMaster> also the issue of different pages, same url
15:57:26 <AnMaster> how to handle something like gmail?
15:57:38 <ehird> AnMaster: well, you can't.
15:57:48 <ehird> gmail changes the hash-portion of the URI as a hack for the back button/history.
15:57:56 <ehird> So you could hack that in, somehow.
15:57:59 <ehird> Generally, though?
15:58:04 <ehird> Ajaxy pages should not change the very nature of the page.
15:58:11 <ehird> They should just update content/submit stuff, etc. :-P
15:58:41 <ehird> Anything else is bad style.
15:58:41 <AnMaster> ehird, what about plugins? Such as when watching youtube
15:58:44 <oerjan> fungot: What is the meaning of life?
15:58:44 <fungot> oerjan: yeah yeah that's
15:58:45 <ehird> Unless you are making a site specialized for the iPhone.
15:59:02 <ehird> Because it's nicer to have a seamless view there (e.g. mimic the OS transitions) by doing everything with Ajax.
15:59:03 <oerjan> fungot: are you still stuck on phone conversations?
15:59:03 <fungot> oerjan: ( ( oh okay oh
15:59:05 <ehird> But that's a corner case.
15:59:11 <ehird> AnMaster: What's that got to do with ajax?
15:59:24 <fungot> Deewiant: i'm sure they do they come and serve you something it's not fnord for whatever bizarre reason
15:59:25 <AnMaster> ehird, nothing, it was just another potential issue
15:59:37 <Deewiant> fungot: yes, being fnord would make much more sense.
15:59:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, it'd fail at mirroring youtube pages, yeah.
15:59:46 <AnMaster> fungot, are you still on the data from those phone calls?
15:59:46 <oerjan> fungot: that's because fnord is so hard to get hold of
15:59:47 <fungot> AnMaster: ( ( laughter mn))
15:59:47 <fungot> oerjan: ( ( laughter oh i don't know i'm
15:59:49 <ehird> I could specialcase it though.
16:00:22 <ehird> OK, now for a directory structure...
16:00:24 <AnMaster> ehird, and then pages using POST data with same url. And what not
16:00:30 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not a problem
16:00:40 <AnMaster> or pages with same data but different ? arguments
16:00:48 <ehird> that's not a problem.
16:00:55 <AnMaster> well see how much you get during a day would be interesting.
16:01:29 <AnMaster> and then there is the issue of pages marked as no-cache heh, I guess you'll just ignore that
16:01:37 <ehird> <archive>/http/example.com/:80/i/love/astronauts/they/are/cool/?cool=1/#hello/2008/10/19/16/01/1
16:01:43 <ehird> Wait, need the method in there.
16:01:54 <ehird> <archive>/http/example.com/:80/i/love/astronauts/they/are/cool/?cool=1/#hello/POST/2008/10/19/16/01/1
16:01:57 <ehird> It's really verbose, but complete.
16:02:24 <ehird> I could just not cache POSTs.
16:02:27 <ehird> As you're not meant to.
16:05:37 <ehird> I would, ideally, modify my browser so that it does not use a regular cache anymore, but instead fetches from the archive.
16:05:40 <ehird> Otherwise, that's some duplication.
16:05:53 <fizzie> Heh, the Bruce Schneier facts randomizator gave me: "Bruce Schneier is able to read every Unlambda program."
16:06:00 <oerjan> cache not the POST, lest ye be cached
16:06:02 <ehird> Also, actually viewing archived pages will be difficult - they will have to be preprocessed to resolve links to other pages from the archive at the right time.
16:07:46 <fizzie> fungot: Go back to IRC-speak, it's less boring.
16:07:47 <fungot> fizzie: what makes you think i need to recompile all the strands or whatever you wanna call it
16:08:12 <ehird> fizzie: feed it the brown corpus
16:08:15 <ehird> it's hilariously bad
16:09:09 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to consider cache control directives
16:09:35 <ehird> I should probably have a metadata system - 1/meta and 1/content
16:09:49 <ehird> Of course, the more usable this system gets the less liklely I am to implement it out of complexity.
16:09:55 <AnMaster> ehird, you could use file attributes if OS X have that
16:10:00 <ehird> Still, it'd be nice never to see a 404 after visiting a page again.
16:10:06 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd prefer something more mungible.
16:10:23 <AnMaster> "No definitions were found for mungible."
16:10:44 <ehird> AnMaster: It's one of those words that you can interpret just by reading them.
16:10:54 <AnMaster> ehird, well maybe a native speaker can
16:11:11 <ehird> AnMaster: It's in the phonetics, kinda. :-P
16:11:19 <ehird> I can't really explain it.
16:11:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Hard to explain. Kind of... manipulatable, except... more gloopy...
16:11:53 <AnMaster> ...... No definitions were found for gloopy.
16:12:29 <AnMaster> Definitions of gooey on the Web: <-- some really really strange ones before the sane ones
16:12:35 <AnMaster> "Graphical User Interface. Esentially, it is using pictures (or graphics) instead of words to give commands or exchange information with the computer.
16:12:35 <AnMaster> homepages.vvm.com/~jhunt/compupedia/comp_glos/g_h.htm"
16:12:52 <AnMaster> "of, or related to goo; soft, sticky and viscous " seems sane
16:13:05 <AnMaster> ehird, as for globby: "No definitions were found for globby."
16:13:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh fer gods sake, just pronounce the words in your head for a bit. :-P
16:13:34 <AnMaster> ehird, "like a glob"? Wildcard glob?
16:13:54 <ehird> Globby, goey, like... a gloopy slimeball...monster...thing.
16:14:01 <ehird> (Also, the first gooey definition is from the pronounciation of GUI)
16:14:35 <AnMaster> you want something that is a manipulatable slime ball in your file system :D
16:14:58 <ehird> mungible...sort of...
16:15:03 <fizzie> ehird: I could feed it the LDC Gigaword corpus -- that's 12 gigabytes of text, mainly news articles, gzipped. But my script would need some serious fixation before processing that stuff would be even remotely possible.
16:15:04 <ehird> Deewiant: do you understand what i mean by 'mungible'?
16:15:13 <Deewiant> ehird: I don't even know what you're talking about.
16:15:13 <ehird> fizzie: the brown corpus is just a meg or two
16:15:21 <Deewiant> I might, if I knew what you were talking about.
16:15:22 <ehird> Deewiant: the word.
16:15:32 <ehird> i'm talking about a metadata file, AnMaster suggested using attributes on the actual file
16:15:37 <ehird> I said i'd prefer an actual file because it's more mungible
16:16:33 <ehird> Deewiant: you're bluffing
16:17:21 <Deewiant> I think AnMaster got it to an extent with "manipulatable"
16:17:30 <Deewiant> ehird: but, you want to tell me why this says "mong"? http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/?search
16:17:47 <ehird> I have absolutely no idea.
16:23:57 <AnMaster> I'm being highlighted on around 5 channels, if if is something important, please repeat it on one line, or I can read it later.
16:24:21 <fizzie> ehird: I used the Europarl corpus (European parliament speeches, the English translations, for authors with names beginning with A-F) because I happened to have it here locally already. So fungot's now a politician.
16:24:21 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i support your positions on this.
16:24:35 <fungot> ehird: mr president, clearly we are going to continue to take place. we cannot ask for this in the near future
16:24:56 <fungot> ehird: madam president, when discussing the issue. i should perhaps make a few specific positions. as i have said, that corruption comes from within. a decision in nice to the effect that the existing accommodation for such instruments within the european parliament at this time as well.
16:25:04 <ehird> fungot: stop bullshitting
16:25:05 <fungot> ehird: mr president, commissioner, ensure that the impact of the directive, and a conference held in new york is a very important time, precisely because the area is the second recommendation. a joint declaration on free and fair trade bananas, but about the method. as this is indeed a breakthrough for the right of public access to administrative procedures.
16:25:13 <ehird> fungot: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
16:25:14 <fungot> ehird: to avoid any cuts in relation to your reference to this, and with each day that the french should be " fnord'.
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16:34:20 <oerjan> free and fair trade bananas, indeed
16:35:25 <oerjan> fungot: so i can count on your vote, then?
16:35:26 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, honourable members, it may be said that particularly here, parliament has the power to assess the impact of this agreement which should contribute to the international agreements on limiting co2 emissions and reducing environmental pollution and intellectual property in third countries.
16:37:04 <oerjan> fungot: yeah reduce their intellectual property already
16:37:05 <fungot> oerjan: madam president, i thank mr watson for the information on spain. sorry, i have no information about, but nothing has happened here. i am slowly getting fnord up by these fnord arguments. we listened to our fnord impulses again.
16:37:34 <oerjan> fungot: yeah i can see that
16:37:35 <fungot> oerjan: madam president, mr schulz: we did indeed restrict ourselves to condemning the atrocities of the taliban protection of mr bin laden has a london bank account. in the interests of major fnord multinational monopolies which want to join in when the action really does start; and, when eventually slaughtered, of meat and bonemeal amounts to less than 2 in the form of a draft regulation that will ensure the economic viabilit
16:38:53 <fungot> Deewiant: mr president, you were wonderful!' i am sorry to say that the work has been completed they will be included in the list of members in the lower chamber in the netherlands, which has saved europe from dictators in the past.
16:38:59 <oerjan> clearly people should listen more to parliament procedures. this is horrible.
16:39:29 <fungot> Deewiant: the impressive number of projects in third countries. if the transatlantic relationship, but the parliament put forward a proposal on voluntary agreements aimed at considering how these can be overcome without secondary legislation, we must jointly take this approach.
16:39:32 <AnMaster> GregorR, fizzie fed som mad text into fungot's dict
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16:40:41 <fizzie> There you have our little politician again.
16:40:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, with cfunge you could put it in trace mode, then redirect trace to a file
16:40:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, trace is by default to stderr
16:40:55 <fizzie> There's far too much trace information.
16:41:02 <fizzie> RC/Funge has got a trace mode too.
16:41:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, you just want the last bit
16:41:08 <GregorR> Hm, I wonder if you get more points for killing everyone slowly and horribly, or quickly and dramatically ...
16:41:13 <ehird> fizzie: just tail it :-P
16:41:19 <oerjan> fungot: what about the crisis?
16:41:20 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, because i believe that these tasks will have to hold your committee meeting without me. i worry about the conditions in which all these qualities will continue to be monitored but it must then be prepared to move into the city. that is very important that we support in particular paragraphs 11 and 13 refer would be too many control centres is nonsense. last year 390 000 people applied for asylum in member
16:41:39 <GregorR> fungot: How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood?
16:41:39 <fungot> GregorR: mr president, that we currently hear from the commission to adopt them, because of the pressure that the european research area. the role of a central disciplinary system which will ensure that the provisions of the treaty.
16:41:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, cfunge can just dump current instruction, so one char per executed instruction, or "x,y, integer value of instruction, instruction, thread id"
16:42:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: RC/Funge-98 has a trace mode as well as a debugger.
16:42:44 <AnMaster> efunge lacks both unless you uncomment a few lines in the source
16:42:51 <Asztal> "i am slowly getting fnord up by these fnord arguments" <- I like that
16:42:58 <AnMaster> I plan to make tracing available in a *VERY ENTERPRISY WAY*
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16:43:12 <AnMaster> using the SASL error logger (System Architecture Support Libraries)
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16:43:41 <AnMaster> =PROGRESS REPORT==== 19-Oct-2008::17:43:35 ===
16:45:10 <Deewiant> one of those for every tick, right?
16:45:19 <AnMaster> it would be a different message
16:45:53 <fizzie> Yes, there is a trace mode in RC/Funge. Assuming tail is clever enough to throw stuff away (should be) I guess I could just tail the last ten thousand lines or so.
16:46:01 <AnMaster> =INFO REPORT==== 19-Oct-2008::17:45:56 ===
16:46:01 <AnMaster> Executing instruction 43 at {42,43} in thread 0 IP 0
16:46:14 <AnMaster> 1> error_logger:info_msg("Executing instruction ~p at ~p in thread ~p IP ~p~n", [$+, {42,43}, 0, 0]).
16:46:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however a bit mad for tracing
16:47:02 <Asztal> very good, but it should be XML with XSL
16:47:22 <AnMaster> Asztal, you could install a different logger callback I believe
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16:47:30 <AnMaster> not sure how, but pretty sure it is possible
16:47:45 <AnMaster> and you could make it log to rotating log files
16:47:48 <Deewiant> fizzie: no, tail reads all the input into a red-black tree indexed by line number, then when it hits EOF it repeatedly gets the lowest key, checks whether it's in the requested range to be printed, and prints it if so
16:47:50 <AnMaster> that rotate when they reach some size
16:49:38 <AnMaster> Asztal, I think there is also some true tracing functionality
16:49:53 <AnMaster> sys:trace seems to be for system messages to a thread only, but pretty sure there are stuff for user tracing too
16:50:01 <fizzie> Usually those just rename the file, start a new one, and signal the logging thing to reopen the log file so it starts writing in the new one. I don't think RC/Funge is clever enough to do the reopening.
16:50:38 <AnMaster> in fact erlang got several tracing frontends
16:51:01 <AnMaster> since the low level trace functionality is too powerful and flexible, using it directly is pretty hard
16:51:18 <oerjan> Deewiant: you've gotta be kidding O_O
16:51:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, I thought you if anyone would have humor
16:52:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Life imitates art.
16:52:31 <oerjan> but that doesn't mean i can recognize when the real world is insane :D
16:53:38 <AnMaster> yes of course, everyone know that tail uses a self-balanced B-tree, not a red-black tree.
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16:54:07 <fizzie> Thanks, people, you made me check out tail sources just to be sure.
16:54:40 <ehird> AnMaster: wow, an actual funny joke
16:54:55 <AnMaster> ehird, well as I said, humor is subjective
16:55:04 <ehird> AN ACTUAL FUNNY JOKE
16:55:15 <oerjan> and ehird doesn't like to be subjected to humor
16:55:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, and the erlang support for rotating log files is done in erlang
16:57:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/8VgYea83.html
16:57:46 <fizzie> Maybe I'll restart fungot under the tracing+tail now. Although I'm not sure how much it'll help. Certainly I'll find out where it ends up looping around, but if it's something data-dependent (like it'll probably be) most likely the infinite-looping has pushed the interesting file offsets and such out of the log. Maybe I'd have some space to add a ":." sequence there where it talks about file offsets.
16:57:46 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, is it basically poor management or is it due to the refusal of this house to enable us to take environmental criteria into consideration in a subsequent review. the draft framework decision on organised crime.
16:57:47 <Deewiant> it makes you think, though: why the hell is 'tail' 1700 lines of code
16:58:08 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure the BSD one is shorter
16:58:42 <AnMaster> $ wc -l /usr/src/usr.bin/tail/tail.c
16:58:42 <AnMaster> 338 /usr/src/usr.bin/tail/tail.c
16:58:47 <fizzie> I didn't know it does files and pipes differently, although I guess that makes a lot of sense.
16:59:03 <AnMaster> $ wc -l /usr/src/bin/cat/cat.c
16:59:13 <ehird> cat should not be 314
16:59:21 <AnMaster> $ wc -l /usr/src/bin/echo/echo.c
16:59:22 <ehird> fucking gnu software :\
16:59:33 <ehird> AnMaster: fucking bsd :-P
16:59:39 <ehird> Deewiant: you are fucking kidding me
16:59:39 <Deewiant> that's over half the size of CCBI
16:59:40 * Corun read that as "fucking gnu showers"
16:59:59 <Deewiant> ehird: the last 180 being the --help text.
17:00:00 <ehird> Corun: god, you just made me imagine rms having sex in a shower... how did you do that? how can anything make me imagine anything so unspeakably awful
17:00:07 <ehird> i hope you die in a fire tonight >:(
17:00:22 <AnMaster> ehird, there are multiple flags for cat, even posix defines one
17:00:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: how long is ls --help
17:00:27 <AnMaster> -u Write bytes from the input file to the standard output without delay as each is read.
17:00:37 <AnMaster> usage: ls [-ABCFGHILPRSTUWZabcdfghiklmnopqrstuwx1] [file ...]
17:00:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, see man page instead
17:00:49 <ehird> what is that program that has 'has even more flags than ls(1)' in BUGS>
17:01:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, since *bsd tool doesn't use -- flags
17:01:28 <AnMaster> COPYRIGHT Makefile.inc1 bin games lib sbin tools
17:01:28 <AnMaster> LOCKS ObsoleteFiles.inc contrib gnu libexec secure usr.bin
17:01:28 <AnMaster> MAINTAINERS README crypto include release share usr.sbin
17:01:29 <AnMaster> Makefile UPDATING etc kerberos5 rescue sys
17:01:38 <Deewiant> you really didn't need to paste that :-P
17:01:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is *no help except short usage*
17:01:44 <fizzie> ls.c is the longest source file in coreutils; sort at a bit over 3k lines and pr at a bit less than 3k come next.
17:01:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, on *BSD you sue the *man page*
17:02:08 <fizzie> BSD is so litigation-obsessed, you even sue the man pages!
17:02:19 <Deewiant> I've always preferred --help and such
17:02:35 <Deewiant> ideally a program is just a single executable with no other data files
17:02:54 <AnMaster> the *BSD sort seems to just use the GNU one
17:03:49 <AnMaster> there is also something called tsort
17:03:56 -!- fungot has quit ("restarting with tracing...").
17:04:02 <AnMaster> TSORT(1) FreeBSD General Commands Manual TSORT(1)
17:04:02 <AnMaster> tsort -- topological sort of a directed graph
17:04:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, also cfunge wouldn't know to reopen the file for trace since it just use plain stderr
17:04:30 <AnMaster> adding a signal handler should be simple
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17:05:10 <Deewiant> "input contains an odd number of tokens"?
17:05:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as for "<Deewiant> ideally a program is just a single executable with no other data files"
17:05:30 <AnMaster> most other simple core tools are one file
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17:05:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: on BSD they aren't, because you don't know what to do with them without the man file, which is external.
17:05:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: a topological sort finds an order of the vertices such that all source vertices come before the corresponding target vertices
17:05:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, don't bloat binary with manual
17:06:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: don't bloat package with extra file
17:06:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you have man pages on linux too
17:06:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, except the man pages on *bsd are way way higher quality
17:06:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, I know, I wasn't arguing for linux in particular
17:06:59 <Deewiant> at least on linux you don't usually need the man/info page
17:07:23 <fizzie> Deewiant: It works so that on alternating lines you have source/destination for the graph edges.
17:07:56 <fizzie> Deewiant: So you input "foo", "bar", "foo", "baz", "bar", "quux", "baz", "quux" and it outputs either "foo", "bar", "baz", "quux" or "foo", "baz", "bar", "quux".
17:08:00 <oerjan> Deewiant: "`tsort' reads its input as pairs of strings, separated by blanks,
17:08:01 <oerjan> indicating a partial ordering. The output is a total ordering that
17:08:04 <oerjan> corresponds to the given partial ordering.
17:08:13 <Deewiant> yeah, I looked at the info page. I tried "foo bar baz" but it seems it wants "foo bar foo baz"
17:08:16 <fizzie> Okay, so any sort of blank works, not just newline.
17:08:31 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/1iIMoG85.html
17:08:35 <oerjan> Deewiant: note that each edge connects a pair of vertices
17:08:36 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think the "odd number of tokens" is quite a clear clue that it expects pairs.
17:08:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, which one is most helpful?
17:08:54 <Deewiant> fizzie: should have been obvious I suppose, yes :-)
17:09:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: BSD. what's your point? My point was that that kind of stuff should be in --help.
17:09:20 <Deewiant> or otherwise embedded in the executable.
17:09:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, isn't in tsort --help on my linux
17:09:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: What's your point? My point was that that kind of stuff should be in --help.
17:09:53 <AnMaster> on gnu it is all in horrible info pages
17:09:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: My point was that that kind of stuff ******should***** be in --help.
17:10:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, but show me a system where it is
17:10:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't want to have to pipe --help into less
17:10:25 <Deewiant> I wasn't talking about operating systems, I was talking about programs.
17:10:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you'd rather pipe a man page into less?
17:11:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, since that is what man does
17:11:13 <Deewiant> oerjan: Yeah, I was hoping that one could give a vertex followed by a list of vertices it connects to
17:11:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, and that's my point. It's the _same thing_.
17:11:39 <Deewiant> Then have a short --help, and a --help-long.
17:12:04 <AnMaster> -v/--verbose affects a lot of other stuff too
17:12:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, now I think a good example of how to not do it: nmap --help
17:13:11 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/LUULdC31.html
17:13:22 <AnMaster> "SEE THE MAN PAGE FOR MANY MORE OPTIONS, DESCRIPTIONS, AND EXAMPLES" is how the nmap help ends
17:13:48 <Deewiant> nmap --help is pretty good IMO, could use more whitespace
17:14:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: unfair comparison, nmap supports hundreds of options, nc supports, looks like 20 or so
17:14:30 <Deewiant> well okay, probably not hundreds either
17:14:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also nmap says "see man page for more options"
17:16:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway yes --help is good, but with too many options it breaks badly
17:16:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think the erlang solution would really piss you off
17:17:06 <AnMaster> opens man with the relevant documentation page
17:17:26 <Deewiant> In general I guess best would be to have --help have the shortopts in the usual format and at most 20 lines of description of most important options
17:17:29 <AnMaster> oh and they are stored in a special place, not in standard man path, since most of them are for erlang modules, not tools
17:17:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, erlang tools seem to like ignoring unknown options
17:17:56 <AnMaster> so you get erlang shell if you try --help
17:18:11 <AnMaster> also some command line parameters use + or such
17:18:24 <Deewiant> But, you know, when you're talking about things like compilers + libraries it does make sense to have separate manuals because they can be hundreds of pages long.
17:18:53 <AnMaster> (+K = kernel pool, like epoll/kqueue and such, no idea why default is false; +A = Async threads for IO to prevent blocking erlang itself)
17:19:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes... tried man zsh?
17:19:29 <AnMaster> "Because zsh contains many features, the zsh manual has been split into a number of sections"
17:20:18 <Deewiant> that's a good example, but the --help is terrible
17:20:49 <AnMaster> (Använd '-v --help' för att visa kommandoradsflaggor för barnprocesser)
17:21:01 <AnMaster> which is where all the interesting options are
17:21:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well yeah I want UTF-8, and that breaks in C locale
17:22:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, with sv_SE.UTF-8 for some like date and so?
17:22:44 <AnMaster> LC_MONETARY, LC_PAPER, LC_MEASUREMENT and so on
17:22:54 <AnMaster> (type locale for the full list of variables)
17:24:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you think of cfunge's -h?
17:24:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/J2zlDX34.html
17:25:11 <Deewiant> fine apart from the "see README" bit ;-)
17:25:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well that is where I put most docs
17:25:44 <AnMaster> for efunge I should do something like:
17:25:52 <AnMaster> since it doesn't have any options
17:26:00 <AnMaster> just want file name and script args
17:27:36 <AnMaster> Usage: efunge [OPTIONS] [FILE] [PROGRAM OPTIONS]
17:28:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is that what you want?
17:30:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, agree it seems slightly insane though?
17:31:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway the recommended way to start efunge is different if you encounter a bug, then you should start it from inside erlang
17:31:24 <AnMaster> hm... maybe adding that to the wrapper script would be a good idea
17:31:38 <AnMaster> but then I'd get command line parameters
17:32:54 <AnMaster> EFUNGE_OPTS="[option1, option2]" ./efunge
17:33:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you think of that idea?
17:33:07 <AnMaster> it has to be done in erlang term format too
17:33:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it follows established tradition:
17:33:44 <Deewiant> for one thing because you can't do that in windows
17:33:45 <AnMaster> ERL_COMPILER_OPTIONS='[inline,native,{hipe,[o3]}]' make
17:33:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you can use set MYENVVAR="FOO" right?
17:34:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also can't windows powershell do it?
17:35:02 <Deewiant> it could have it in some weird syntax
17:35:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well anyway the wrapper script is a shell script
17:35:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you would need a custom wrapper script on windows anyway
17:35:54 <Deewiant> so it requires posix and is thus non-portable :-P
17:36:06 <AnMaster> you just have to start it in an erlang shell
17:36:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just I can't write *.bat
17:36:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well... funge is unportable, it requires the concept of "environment variables"
17:37:16 <AnMaster> which is in the os module in Erlang, and nothing in that module is guaranteed to be portable
17:37:53 <Deewiant> funge doesn't require it, you can just push an empty list if they don't exist
17:38:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/ftSSjH10.html Notice how extremely simple it is
17:38:15 <AnMaster> just some sanity checking and setting up some paths
17:38:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well no, would need fork and execv
17:38:56 <AnMaster> also using C for a wrapper script would be silly
17:39:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and /bin/sh exists on Windows. Wasn't it POSIX okish or such? ;P
17:39:44 <AnMaster> and then there is msys, cygwin and various other ones
17:39:50 <Deewiant> /bin/sh cannot exist on windows because "/" is not valid in a path
17:40:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well yet windows passed POSIX exam iirc? Or at least didn't fail it
17:40:15 <AnMaster> I believe it has to exist then
17:40:23 <Deewiant> and hacks to workaround stuff like that
17:41:14 <Asztal> well, / works in paths, but it's not a valid root path without something like Services For Unix or msys
17:41:24 <Asztal> C:/windows/system32/notepad.exe works
17:41:48 <Deewiant> it specifically doesn't work in cmd.exe
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17:42:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway 1) you can write a *.bat file I guess. or 2) You could just do it from inside erlang as the README describes
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17:43:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm pretty sure cd / works in cmd.exe under windows xp
17:43:05 <Asztal> (I didn't expect it to, but it did)
17:43:07 <AnMaster> I'm 99% certain I seen it working
17:43:13 <Deewiant> I'm pretty sure it doesn't since I just did it and it didn't
17:43:25 <Deewiant> "cd /" does absolutely nothing, doesn't error out either though
17:43:35 <Asztal> both the notepad thing and cd / worked for me just now
17:43:48 <Asztal> this is the evil vista
17:44:11 <AnMaster> Well, there is no spec to check against is there Deewiant?
17:44:14 <Asztal> though, I was sure XP supported it :)
17:44:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, doing this on windows would be non-trivial anyway
17:45:00 <AnMaster> since usually erlang isn't in path there
17:45:37 <Deewiant> interesting that 'erl' starts an Eshell then
17:45:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm it does? Doesn't match what I was able to find in docs
17:46:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what version does it state that it is btw?
17:46:21 <Asztal> (I suspect cmd.exe is doing something to explicitly support '/' as a filesystem root, though, since "ls.exe /Users" doesn't work)
17:46:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't think efunge will work on that, Only tested on 5.6.4
17:47:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, I ^G works for me
17:47:45 <AnMaster> where you can start another shell on a local or remote node, jump between existing shells and so on
17:48:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no clue why it doesn't work on windows.
17:49:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I'm quite sure erlang will need at least BEAM 5.6.x
17:49:16 <AnMaster> (which is last version as of writing this)
17:49:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because it uses some very very useful recent features
17:50:11 <AnMaster> -spec and -type notification are experimentally supported in 5.6.4 at least. Allows better static analysis and easier to find bugs in advance
17:50:22 <AnMaster> sed could remove those if needed I guess
17:50:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, apart from that it may or may not use other bits I don't know about
17:50:47 <AnMaster> but I think Erlang 5.5 is a different major release
17:51:04 <AnMaster> and those can introduce major new features
17:51:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so it wouldn't surprise me if it broke on the legacy R11B
17:51:47 <AnMaster> since that is outdated by years
17:52:30 <oerjan> statute of limitations? :D
17:53:19 <AnMaster> where * count doesn't match real word
17:54:06 <oerjan> i think there are various options there
17:54:11 <Deewiant> I've always read it as "so outta luck"
17:54:27 <Deewiant> but I guess "shittily" is the rude form and "sadly" the more common polite form
17:54:32 <AnMaster> anyway: you are free to try efunge on R11B, but I won't fix it breaks, recommending R12B
17:54:57 <Deewiant> evidently "shit" is the common form, although it doesn't make grammatical sense
17:54:57 <AnMaster> when R13B is released I will probably keep R12B compat for a few months or a bit more at least
17:55:02 <Deewiant> but then, expletives rarely do
17:57:17 <fizzie> Come to think of it, I could just run fungot's babble-generation locally repeatedly to find that bug faster than just waiting for it to crash.
17:57:19 <fungot> fizzie: madam president, i should briefly like to focus on the most fundamental human rights.
17:57:55 <fizzie> fungot: Er, certainly, I don't think we have anything against human rights here.
17:58:05 <fungot> fizzie: first and foremost, stability and security, which already give the commission something to consider, when commissioner palacio brings forward her nuclear package this autumn, that the poorest regions is not exacerbated by another divide linked to the activities of the european union
17:58:24 <fizzie> (It's quite a lot slower with that trace mode enabled.)
17:58:39 <Deewiant> maybe I should try and reproduce the bug
17:58:43 <fungot> Deewiant: mr president, mr poms ruiz, to whom they really do, as the elected representative of a battle of principles, you will find it more difficult to resolve, but it is essential to finding a solution to this particular matter and my views were clearly laid out. nevertheless, i hope that, by taking part in what was said at the first reading.
17:59:09 <fungot> Deewiant: madam president, as an indirect consequence, holding us prisoner on other subjects that are excluded from so many contradictory standpoints. it would be too expensive. in this respect, i should like to remind her and the house' s work just a few days ago here to introduce a uniform control system which is more fnord and export a certain model of society that suits them. it would be very interesting for economists to s
17:59:25 <fizzie> It's funny how it alternates between madam/mr all the time.
17:59:30 <Deewiant> fizzie: hmm, maybe you could make it cutoff messages in a smarter way
17:59:32 <oerjan> "clearly laid out" my ass
17:59:45 <fungot> Deewiant: mr president, i would say to those who need to disclose one's inventions before filing for a patent, its aim is that, in 2004, especially in mr poignant' s report, certain elements of the tens, but we cannot ignore. the us government has threatened to move its entire development department and corporate management to another country if it cannot put a stop to. secondly, the establishment of a european parliament and t
17:59:49 <fungot> Deewiant: mr president, the discussion is so interesting and there are a number of people.
17:59:59 <Deewiant> fungot: bug out already, will ya
18:00:19 <fizzie> Deewiant: That's just the IRC message length. There's also a limit to the number of words, which should be small enough not to hit the IRC limits.
18:00:44 <fizzie> Maybe it's all those long words.
18:00:48 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yes, I know what it is, but as you can see it keeps getting cut off :-)
18:00:53 <fizzie> I don't remember what I set the word limit to.
18:01:22 <Deewiant> count the message length and cut off at a word boundary where the wanted message length is exceeded
18:01:47 <fungot> oerjan: as i demonstrated during the debate. as regards priority 1, namely broadening the scope and structure of the directorate-general for transport essentially deals with this very difficult issue. a solution must be sought initially on a voluntary basis. it is a pity.
18:02:15 <oerjan> in a manner of speaking
18:02:22 <fungot> Deewiant: mr president, many pensioners paint or create works of art and antiques'. according to a report by the independent opinion of the committee, issues on labour law and free and fair way, in spite of what mr bouwman said. in fact, with the game of musical chairs that is being done.
18:03:02 <fizzie> Actually it should be stopping quite early if I'm reading that source right. (Except that it will only stop when the context is suitable for ending a sentence.)
18:03:05 <fungot> Deewiant: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, first of all that is bad comes from elsewhere; this is why i am against increasing taxation on employment, under the present legislation. both treaties are based on different understandings of human health and the environment, but also for animal welfare where many millions of new jobs as it did not do is to base programming on a political solution to end spam. let me also address t
18:03:16 <Deewiant> fungot: I'm still not a president
18:03:23 <fungot> Deewiant: question no 30 by ( fnord/ 2001. i can allow the exemption for mortgages are all adopted, and comparable objectives have been set, but whose idea of political responsibility observed during the process of 2004.
18:03:38 <oerjan> Deewiant: that's just what you want us to believe, Ms. Halonen
18:03:43 <fungot> Deewiant: it is easy to see that there is a job we will have to be addressed: greece, spain, greece and spain.
18:04:06 <Deewiant> oerjan: oh noes, you caught me
18:04:14 <fizzie> Haha: "Greece, Spain, Greece and Spain -- a joh we will have to address!"
18:04:49 <oerjan> fizzie: it's counting commas as tokens?
18:05:02 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, punctuation is separate tokens.
18:05:21 <fizzie> So it's just got a context of ", spain," when it generated that second 'greece'.
18:06:00 <fizzie> fungot: Did you just ignore Deewiant, or crash?
18:06:23 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, the pensioners of the different legal frameworks would probably make it very clear that the eu must develop a process, namely a fnord victory for president eyadema. on a financial basis, nor to care about their neighbour. the socialists say yes. allow me to outline the way in which you will accept these amendments, nos 1, 2, 5 and 6 i can support the draft act which is before us here today, of her excellen
18:06:35 <Deewiant> I don't like the politician-fungot
18:06:36 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yours was a fnord victory.
18:06:38 <fungot> Deewiant: i wish to ask you, mr president-in-office, you did hear me say that i fully endorse what mr salafranca has just said.
18:06:49 <Deewiant> fungot: now who the hell is mr salafranca
18:06:57 <fungot> Deewiant: mr president, i was in fact our motion for a resolution calling for a committee of inquiry into the current cohesion policy. it is my opinion that the controls that are applied to economies whose needs remain very different.
18:07:13 <Deewiant> fungot: you didn't answer my question
18:07:14 <fungot> Deewiant: mr president, i am sorry, in particular candidate countries.
18:07:16 <fizzie> Deewiant: That would be José Ignacio Salafranca Sánchez-Neyra.
18:07:45 <Deewiant> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Salafranca_S%C3%A1nchez-Neira
18:07:45 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_Salafranca_Sánchez-Neira
18:08:04 <fizzie> The page title doesn't include the "Ignacio" part.
18:08:05 <Deewiant> fungot is sorry; but only in particular candidate countries
18:08:21 <fungot> Deewiant: mr president, mr president, is extremely limited. the commission feels that to increase the number of subjects, the european council decided at its meeting on 30 april, or even this very budget assuming the administrative costs. moreover, i do not believe it would have been preferable and more effective fnord and monitoring powers. your support for our approach as set out in the end to violence, subjected to terrible
18:08:24 <oerjan> wp only searches for starting parts?
18:08:43 <Deewiant> fungot: Yes, I think it would have been less effective fnord
18:09:41 <fizzie> I think you're being ignored again. Okay, I don't think it makes sense to do more of this on-channel; I'll test it elsewhere.
18:10:08 <Deewiant> fizzie: I suspect you can reconstruct, from your logs, everything that was said to it before it crashed
18:10:18 <fizzie> Yes, but it shouldn't matter.
18:10:22 <Deewiant> so just keep throwing that at it
18:10:23 <fizzie> Since it doesn't look at the input at all.
18:10:43 <oerjan> Eyadema was an interesting guy too
18:11:46 <oerjan> Gnassingbé is such a household name
18:16:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, haven't you read fungot source?
18:16:59 <AnMaster> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
18:17:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, being a befunge expert (author of mycology) I assume you will understand it right away :P
18:17:32 <AnMaster> (like you see to expect me to do with mycology)
18:17:46 <fizzie> Should probably make a real web page for fungot.
18:17:46 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, commissioner, for this legislature. we have member states who so wish, to reduce pollution by 60% over the last 20 years this industry has one of the questions, so i shall not go into the details of your speeches, ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of the commission to ensure that the principle of mutual recognition of decisions to expel third-country citizens. i congratulate joe fnord and fnord and catalon
18:18:48 <fizzie> I didn't know there was a Joe Fnord in the Parliament. And I wonder if it crashed; it's certainly taking a long time to answer.
18:18:53 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, i want to stress the extremely high social expectations, we are being ideological. they are told off for living too long and that it is only natural, when already in a europe that is not industry which determines the courts that involve an interpretation of the new policies, such as tag replacement, without adding any ifs or buts. the report reveals a motley fnord of organisations, which are far from mat
18:18:58 <fizzie> No, it's just the slow.
18:19:20 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, with the participation of the president-in-office. of course, under the existing substance regulations of 1993. the final point i am addressing our fellow parliamentarians from macedonia should be able to have olaf's report so that chapters for the individual sectors. secondly, we attach great importance to us that there could be this consensus and that the meat is from animals which were tested and whethe
18:20:06 <oerjan> ^echo are we here yet?
18:20:07 <fungot> are we here yet? are we here yet?
18:20:38 <Asztal> fungot, your prolixity is overly quixotic >:(
18:20:53 <fungot> Asztal: madam president, mr posselt, let me say that we should take the decision we need to look at the simple trend, i have one difficulty which is not covered by specific community legislation, so ias can only be achieved by applying lower rates of growth, employment and the unwieldiness of the procedures, favouring a more competitive and makes his company more competitive. everyone agrees on that, are dying as a result of ad
18:21:59 <oerjan> presumably http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernd_Posselt
18:23:33 <oerjan> also an interesting guy it seems...
18:26:45 <fizzie> The bot does sound quite much like a politician, but maybe it's not overly interesting babbling.
18:27:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, you want low-overhead tracing?
18:28:38 <AnMaster> you want to append them to a buffer or such, and then let another thread format the messages
18:28:57 <AnMaster> (this would be a bad idea in erlang, because every thread have a separate heap
18:32:58 <fizzie> Heh, nice output: "let us not talk of positive discrimination more effective than for other types of intensive animal husbandry, the commission is willing to launch pre-emptive nuclear strikes"
18:33:09 <fizzie> Pre-emptive nuclear strikes does not sound like the right solution to me.
18:33:18 <fizzie> fungot: Are you sure about that?
18:33:19 <fungot> fizzie: without being afraid of the difficulties currently facing the union.
18:33:41 <fungot> AnMaster: madam president, with reference to mr pronk on his report which is evidently to establish the existence of the internal market.
18:33:47 <fizzie> Hopefully no-one's going to put fungot in charge.
18:33:52 <AnMaster> fungot, you got my gender wrong
18:33:55 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i welcome the resolve that was shown here today by the college of commissioners has already decided, was literally betrayed at the last moment, i woke up, i am happy to support, veiled criticism and open criticism. this evening's debate is certainly the case for amendments nos 3 and 4, so that we can all see the work we do with small-scale fishermen. i await mr henderson's answer on burma was rather meanin
18:34:02 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, i am aware that this is all the more necessary to seek equal treatment for agency workers in ireland.
18:34:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, where did you get this data from did you say?
18:35:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about mr henderson?
18:35:39 <fizzie> oerjan: Bartho Pronk, actually.
18:36:11 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's the European Parliament speeches. Those are translated to all N official languages; I just used the English version.
18:36:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, I would prefer telephone or discworld over this
18:36:45 <fizzie> Years 1996-2006, apparently.
18:37:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, do they speak to presidents all the time?
18:37:07 <fizzie> And only those speakers whose names start with a letter from A to F.
18:37:26 <fizzie> It's the President of the Commission, I think.
18:38:29 <fizzie> I just grepped the data a bit and saw "AFFILIATION="President of the Commission"", but that was just one of the speakers.
18:40:03 <oerjan> henderson is probably too common a name
18:40:22 <fizzie> Just about every speaker starts with "Mr President" or some-such, and since we grouped those so that one "paragraph" (which is what fungot outputs) is one complete "speech"/statement, that's what fungot does too.
18:40:26 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i wish to put on record that our starting point and encouraging that a solution is not very effective.
18:41:16 <oerjan> that's relevant, sort of
18:41:29 <fizzie> fungot: You're such a complainer.
18:41:41 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, mr camisn asensio, things are really up and running for 8 years, we have to realise that this is our parliament, a citizen many of which are very sensible. that very fact illustrates the european vagueness of the report.
18:42:25 <fizzie> Yes, the politician-fungot is not very funny at all. But at least it sounds like it's speaking and not like it's reading a book.
18:42:34 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i will begin with the nine technical amendments. amendments nos 12, 65, 66, 67, 69, 70 and 71. the possible effects on other community policies, new proposals will have to submit every three years.
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18:46:48 <fizzie> I've been looking at the Gutenberg authors I happen to have here, but none of them sound like they'd make an especially interesting data source.
18:53:40 <fizzie> fungot: Well, you heard them. Do Lewis Carroll now.
18:54:09 <fizzie> Or are you ignoring me or something?
18:55:47 <fizzie> No read permissions to those files.
18:55:52 <fizzie> Forgot to give g+r to them.
18:56:14 <fizzie> fungot: Can you read it now?
18:56:15 <fungot> fizzie: the witnesses proved, without fnord,' he went on, " the conclusion is fallacious."
18:57:20 <fizzie> fungot: What's that mean?
18:57:22 <fungot> fizzie: he saw them drooping here and there among them, though i don't want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as they put them upon the table, merrily running round and round after her own shawl, which was still patiently fnord its fnord!"
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18:59:14 <oerjan> the fnord solution may not work very well with an author reknown for inventing words...
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19:00:01 <fizzie> oerjan: It mapped 5703 words to "fnord".
19:00:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, by the way to show that I wouldn't oppose MVRS done correctly and properly specced my funge-space changes for ATHR are designed so the change for adding multiple funge spaces should be simple
19:00:57 <AnMaster> I'm designing the API with that in mind
19:01:57 <fungot> oerjan: there was no " one, two! and through and through her head till she felt quite certain he would only refer to his fnord code, and read it " some x are y"?
19:02:24 <fizzie> oerjan: It's 3.4 % of the tokens in the data. For comparison purposes, in the irclogs it mapped only 1.2 % of the tokens to fnord. And irclogs have lots of unique flutzpahs too.
19:02:30 <AnMaster> Only books by Lewis Carroll I read are Alice in wonderland, and Allice through the looking glass
19:02:34 <AnMaster> both in Swedish translations too
19:02:37 <oerjan> "some x are y"? are you including his math? :D
19:03:18 <fizzie> The books were: "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland", "Phantasmagoria and Other Poems", "Sylvie and Bruno", "The Game of Logic", "The Hunting of the Snark" and "Through the Looking-Glass"
19:03:37 <oerjan> the game of logic looks suspicious
19:03:42 <fizzie> The "some x are y" is from the game of logic, yes.
19:03:51 <AnMaster> sounds like hunting of the fnord...
19:04:30 <Deewiant> fizzie: remind me what the fnord-mapping was all about
19:04:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: All words that occur only once are mapped to a special token "UNKNOWN", and fungot converts that to text as "fnord".
19:04:59 <fungot> fizzie: " i will call on the earl.
19:05:22 <oerjan> snark surely occurs more than once though
19:05:40 <fizzie> And Snarks have been seen at least in a short story by Niven, it's somewhat famous.
19:06:01 <fizzie> Deewiant: To cut down the size of the lexicon, mostly. Also to make the output more silly.
19:06:40 <oerjan> snarks? not bandersnatchi?
19:07:38 <fizzie> oerjan: Those are everywhere in the Known Space books, but I think there was a Snark too.
19:07:57 <fizzie> I'm not absolutely certain, though.
19:09:46 <fizzie> oerjan: At least in the story "Like Banquo's Ghost" (from the Convergent Series collection) there's a space ship called "Snarkhunter #3".
19:10:19 <AnMaster> huh. fizzie you make *less* sense than fungot now..
19:10:20 <fungot> AnMaster: all this i saw from the open window of the warden's breakfast-saloon, looking across the garden, examining the fastenings of the drawing-room window.
19:10:31 <fizzie> No other Snarks, though; I've misremembered, it seems.
19:10:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, which books are that from ^
19:12:32 <fizzie> AnMaster: Seems to be mostly from that "Sylvie and Bruno" book. Haven't read it.
19:13:54 <fizzie> Still, whenever I feed it books the output also sounds like a book, not like someone talking.
19:16:21 <fizzie> I should feed it some chatting, but I have a smaller supply of that available.
19:16:27 <fizzie> Maybe I should try Wikipedia "talk" pages. :p
19:17:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, no... that would be suicidal amount of "consensus version"
19:18:10 <fizzie> Youtube video comments, then; I hear there's a lot of thoughtful debate there.
19:21:37 <AnMaster> oh and even worse: /b/ of four chan
19:21:45 <fizzie> Or maybe spam! I think I gzipped some ten thousand messages somewhere just in case I need a sample spam mail sometimes.
19:22:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, what department were you at?
19:22:29 * oerjan wonders what fizzie is taking
19:22:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, and we don't want all the obscene stuff
19:22:33 <fizzie> Yes, well, not for effective spam *filtering*, just generally.
19:23:08 <fizzie> Don't you ever get a craving for some spam?
19:23:25 <oerjan> SPAM SPAM WONDERFUL SPAM
19:26:16 <ehird> lol, a /b/ markov chain would be indistinguishable from the real thing.
19:28:09 <ehird> I've always thought that the best way to run a markov chain is to analyze a forum/mailing list, make it post on that mailing list with its results, and start up about 10 instances.
19:28:16 <ehird> After a while they just start spewing out nonsense based on their own failures
19:28:32 <fizzie> Okay, I'll try one more author, let's see if it (a) works and (b) you recognize it. The source text at least should be pretty recognizable.
19:28:38 <fizzie> fungot: Let's see what you've got.
19:28:40 <fungot> fizzie: fnord with a fnord negroid mouth, pulled forth a dirty, crumpled paper and handed it to me, for there are elements i had not independently suspected before, though we had no cause to think the regions beyond the range of modern human knowledge.
19:29:49 <fizzie> fungot: Give us a second example too, okay?
19:29:50 <fungot> fizzie: miss tilton, comparing all possible fnord and if we be fnord and besides, was not beyond normal credibility.
19:30:01 <fizzie> Well, that wasn't very useful.
19:30:08 <fizzie> Pretty fnordy text this time.
19:35:14 <fungot> oerjan: even the small piece refused to grow cool, it soon had the college in a state of
19:35:30 <fungot> oerjan: by h. p. lovecraft and c. m... eddy jr.
19:35:37 <fizzie> fungot: Hey, you gave it away!
19:35:42 <fungot> fizzie: at my violent start the speaker paused a moment before there had been a gorgeous sunset, and judged it was a million or ten million or fifty million years ago and that of only thirty million years old.
19:35:53 <oerjan> and i was _just_ guessing lovecraft too :(
19:36:18 <oerjan> (although i haven't read any)
19:36:20 <fizzie> Should've stripped those parts out of them books, but couldn't be bothered.
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21:17:59 <oklopol> was wondering about turning boolean expressions into maxterm normal form
21:18:04 <oklopol> after ages of thinking and pondering
21:18:20 <oklopol> i realized the general case just amounts to enumerating the whole truth table :|
21:19:43 <oklopol> maxterms are when you and or clauses, kinda taking the maximum of the truth values of each clause
21:19:50 <oklopol> minterms are when you and them
21:20:18 <oklopol> i need the maxterm one so i can convert to 3-sat
21:21:51 <oklopol> the problem with making unimplementable turing tarpits is even *i* feel i'm wasting my time
21:22:09 <psygnisfive> hey oklopol, oerjan, didnt you want to learn something about like.. syntax??
21:22:14 <oerjan> well the conversion can blow up exponentially
21:23:03 <oklopol> btw is there anything new and interesting on the wiki?
21:23:07 <oklopol> i haven't read it for ages
21:23:16 <oklopol> only recently got reinterested in esolangs
21:23:54 <oklopol> well, actively reinterested, i'm always *interested*, but i'm not always using my brain for esolang-related ponderings
21:24:14 <psygnisfive> i remember you and oerjan saying something about itd be interesting to learn such and such. :|
21:24:48 <oklopol> all is interesting to learn that is abstract and useless.
21:25:24 <oklopol> i don't recall saying anything like that, i have only asked about *phonetics*
21:25:37 <oklopol> do they really? then perhaps i should try it
21:27:17 <oklopol> oerjan: do you have insights on the 3-sat conversion?
21:28:12 <oerjan> well you introduce extra variables, i think
21:29:18 <oklopol> and C can actually be used as the temp of any amount of clauses
21:29:40 <oerjan> er i'm not sure of _that_
21:29:52 <oerjan> in the case you show there, it can
21:30:17 <oerjan> but not for handling splitting
21:30:48 <oerjan> (a v b v c v d) => (a v b v e) ^ (c v d v E)
21:31:10 <oerjan> not sure if i got that right
21:31:39 <oklopol> but i can't put into words why
21:32:00 <oerjan> if e is true, then c or d must be true
21:32:09 <oerjan> if e is false, then a or b must be true
21:32:09 <psygnisfive> theres a theory of syntax from a guy at UPenn, Aravind Joshi, called Tree Adjoining Grammar
21:32:31 <oerjan> and e can be chosen arbitrarily, but here it is important that it is used nowhere else
21:32:51 <oklopol> psygnisfive: tree rewriting!!
21:33:10 <psygnisfive> it lets you do all sorts of crazy shit with non-local dependencies
21:33:12 <oklopol> but how about REWRITING HYPERGRAPHS?!?
21:33:30 <psygnisfive> i do know that some models of dependency grammar are based on /multigraphs/
21:33:44 <oklopol> oerjan: seems you had quite a lot of insight, thanks
21:33:57 <oklopol> i probably wouldn't have come up with that without giving it tons of thought
21:35:31 <psygnisfive> i think i might be using hypergraphs in my syntactic formalism
21:36:02 <oklopol> (a v b v c v d v e v f v g), i should just split this as evenly as possible, right? (a v b v c v d v temp1) (e v f v g v Temp1)
21:36:38 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i'm doing small-scale research so i can start implementing noprob
21:38:17 <oerjan> oklopol: well i've seen the reduction SAT -> 3SAT at some time...
21:38:23 <oklopol> (a v b v c v d v temp1) ^ (e v f v g v Temp1) ==> (a v b v temp4) ^ (c v temp2 v Temp4) ^ (d v temp1 v Temp2) ^ (e v f v temp3) ^ (g v Temp1 v Temp 3)
21:38:48 <oklopol> basically just recursing on the resulting subclauses
21:39:07 <oklopol> psygnisfive: what on what?
21:39:46 <oklopol> i'm researching the subject of <the thing i'm asking oerjan about>
21:39:57 <oerjan> oklopol: looks good, of course there may be some more elegant way
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21:40:48 <oklopol> oerjan: well it's a logarithmic growth in size
21:41:13 <oklopol> as i'm already doing exponential work when creating the sat...
21:42:47 <oklopol> the reduction is O(lg n) deep, because i always split the clause
21:42:59 <oklopol> but i'm also doubling the work each time
21:43:15 <oklopol> because there are twice as many clauses on the next level
21:43:43 <oklopol> so O(lg n) steps, exponential growth in size of one step, that would make O(n) in layman's math
21:43:48 <oerjan> when creating the sat, do you mean reducing from general boolean expression to conjunctive normal form?
21:44:03 <oerjan> because i think some of the same tricks can be used there
21:44:54 <oerjan> introducing variables to split things cheaply
21:45:12 <oklopol> well i was just thinking, if you have just a few clauses of disjunctive normal form, the conjunctive normal form will have an exponential number of clauses
21:45:50 <oklopol> because the numbers of clauses are 2^|variables|'s complements if i'm not mistaken
21:46:11 <oklopol> why didn't i think of that
21:46:55 <oerjan> in fact i think you can start this by doing the same thing to the large disjunction
21:47:14 <oerjan> then you end up with only relatively small ones
21:47:50 <oerjan> if you start with a disjunctive normal form
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21:49:10 <oklopol> my initial approach was to try and use boolean algebra to reduce things to the normal form
21:49:51 <oerjan> yeah because it blows up
21:50:03 * ehird realises that his semantic wiki project thing is already realised by RDF, and he just needs to hack up an interface to viewing/editing rdf
21:50:15 <oerjan> after all, if you could convert things to conj. form then by duality you could convert it to disj. form
21:50:47 <oerjan> and if you could do the latter without blowing up, satisfiability becomes easy to solve
21:51:33 <oklopol> is satisfiability trivial in disjunctive normal form?
21:51:39 <oerjan> yes. because checking a disjunctive normal form for satisfiability is just checking each clause
21:51:58 <oerjan> if any of them is satisfiable, then the whole is
21:52:56 <oklopol> how does this not make it impossible to do the conversion with newly introduced variables?
21:53:18 <oerjan> ehird: ah, Reality Distortion Fields
21:53:44 <ehird> oerjan: no, http://www.w3.org/RDF/ :-
21:54:05 <ehird> (Note: It isn't always XML, there's a non-eyeball-renching plaintext serialization of it too... thank god.)
21:54:19 * oerjan loves picking the wrong de-acronym
21:55:07 <oerjan> oklopol: the thing here is that when introducing variables while keeping satisfiability you always introduce new _conjunctions_ outermost
21:55:38 <oerjan> so it gets worse, not better, as far as actually solving it goes
21:55:53 <oklopol> and you cannot get to DNF by adding new vars?
21:56:06 <oklopol> you have to realize i don't actually see how any of this is realized :P
21:56:29 <oerjan> if you tried to do the dual i guess you would find you preserve the dual of satisfiability instead
21:56:42 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
21:56:58 <oerjan> and _that_ is hard to solve on disjunctive normal form, but easy on conjunctive
21:57:22 <oklopol> ah, find something that does *not* satisfy it
21:57:30 <oklopol> okay, it's all becoming clear now.
21:58:46 <oklopol> (a ^ b) v (c ^ d), how would i turn this upside down into CNF?
21:59:13 <oerjan> i think once you have it down to just two terms you'll have to use boolean algebra a bit
22:00:57 <oerjan> um it's: (a ^ b) v (c ^ d) => (a v c) ^ (a v d) ^ (b v c) ^ (b v d)
22:01:54 <oklopol> right, so to not it, i have to list all the *other* possibilities?
22:02:40 <oerjan> to negate a boolean expression you use deMorgan's laws
22:03:20 <oerjan> switch ^ and v, and negate the arguments recursively
22:03:50 <oklopol> why does that add new clauses
22:04:14 <oerjan> are we trying to do the same thing...
22:04:55 <oerjan> basically, you usually use deMorgan's law to get all negation down to just the variables before doing anything else
22:04:56 <oklopol> what exactly did you negate in (a ^ b) v (c ^ d) to get that next thing?
22:05:21 <oerjan> i didn't negate, i used the distributive law for v over ^
22:05:29 <oklopol> well that makes more sense
22:05:48 <oerjan> (they're dual, so distribution goes both ways)
22:06:33 <oklopol> how about something more complex then, say i simply have (a ^ b ^ c) v (d ^ e ^ f)
22:06:53 <oklopol> i guess i can use the same law...
22:06:59 <oerjan> i got to thinking that this might be a bit wrong if you have deeply nested things
22:07:25 <oerjan> a better way may be to introduce variables _standing_ for the subterms
22:07:48 <oerjan> i think that's how the reduction NP -> SAT usually goes anyway
22:07:51 <oklopol> yes, that's what i tried initially
22:08:59 <oerjan> so then, what we want is a clause that implies abc == a ^ b ^ c
22:09:23 <oklopol> we somehow add some structure somewhere
22:09:38 <oklopol> that makes (a ^ b ^ c) true exactly when abc is true
22:09:40 <oerjan> this is easy since equivalence is a boolean relation
22:09:47 <oklopol> and then use abc as that subterm
22:10:08 <oklopol> right, i used that reduction in my noprob examples
22:10:31 <oklopol> (a <=> b) <=> ((a ^ b) v (A ^ B))
22:10:48 <oerjan> except you want it conjunctive, presumably
22:11:14 <oklopol> which i cannot really explain.
22:12:03 <oklopol> if the vars were different
22:12:11 <oklopol> then one of those would definitely be false
22:12:29 <oerjan> you can get it with distributivity, then all the a ^ A terms disappear because they're inconsistent
22:13:00 <oklopol> but i like to explain things rather than prove them, because i'm a softie
22:13:29 <oklopol> if i have the subterm (a ^ b ^ c)
22:14:21 <oklopol> err... okay now i'm thinking i'd add an "^ (abc <=> (a ^ b ^ c))" on the toplevel and substitute abc for all (a ^ b ^ c)'s
22:14:56 <oklopol> the thing i ripped abc out of is now definitely smaller
22:16:09 <oklopol> but the problem is, when i've removed all the substructures
22:16:24 <oklopol> i have ands on the toplevel, anding up all the equivalences
22:17:04 <oklopol> it's just i keep flipping ands and ors together.
22:18:26 <oerjan> note if (a ^ b ^ c) were something larger you could always split it up more
22:18:30 <oklopol> (abc v (a ^ b ^ c)') ^ (Abc v (a ^ b ^ c))
22:19:31 <oklopol> (abc v (a ^ b ^ c)') ^ (Abc v a) ^ (Abc v b) ^ (Abc v c)
22:19:57 <oerjan> the left half needs a deMorgan
22:20:02 <oklopol> (abc v A v B v C) ^ (Abc v a) ^ (Abc v b) ^ (Abc v c) ?
22:20:30 <oklopol> okay, i'm pretty sure i could do the conversion manually now
22:20:55 <oklopol> so i can probably automatize it with a bit of further consideration
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22:21:27 <oklopol> thanks, this has been eye-opening
22:22:05 <oerjan> i think this is about half the proof that SAT _is_ NP-complete. the other half is turning a Turing machine into a boolean circuit
22:22:52 <oklopol> umm, with a finite playground?
22:22:55 <cathyal> anyone worked on a brainfuck compiler
22:23:08 <oerjan> polynomial size in the input
22:23:30 <oklopol> that's how it's proven that SAT is np-complete without reducing it to anything
22:23:51 <fizzie> Still trying to get fungot to crash, but I think he's losing hope:
22:23:51 <cathyal> what are you guys talking about
22:23:52 <fizzie> 00:22:01 <fizzie> fungot: Crash!
22:23:53 <fizzie> 00:22:02 <fungot> fizzie: my feelings toward these shelves cannot be described there is no hope. then,
22:23:53 <fungot> fizzie: " bragging rights" out of " scary dead grandma made us fake the stamp" stickers
22:23:54 <fungot> fizzie: the environment.' environments ( better referred to as ' characters.'
22:23:54 <fungot> fizzie: i'll give you mine if you want
22:24:04 <oklopol> my algo book just said something reeeally vague
22:24:36 <oerjan> cathyal: oklopol is trying to invent a language based on an NP-complete problem
22:24:54 <oklopol> trying to *implement*, the language is ready
22:25:03 <oerjan> it's practically unimplementable
22:25:14 <oklopol> yes, that's the beauty of implementing it
22:25:18 <oerjan> but that has never stopped oklopol
22:26:01 <oklopol> cise's parsing is most likely np-complete
22:26:31 <oerjan> fizzie: are you not succeeding? maybe something other than just chatting is required
22:27:05 <fizzie> So far it just chatting has been enough, but it only occurs rarely.
22:27:09 <oklopol> two exams tomorrow, and not about 3-sat, perhaps i should sleep a bit ->
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22:27:44 <fizzie> I'm sure I'd get it to crash pretty quickly if I just feed "fungot\nfungot\nfungot\n" as the input without involving an IRC server, but that would feel like cheating.
22:28:16 <fizzie> So I've just been talking with it.
22:28:25 <cathyal> or implemented symbolic languages
22:28:27 <oerjan> haskell haskell haskell
22:29:04 <oerjan> i have half of a brainfuck interpreter in haskell laying around
22:30:27 <fizzie> I've got half of a Befunge interpreter in Haskell, it's my default "testing a new language" program.
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22:30:38 <fungot> oerjan: ive got balls of steel?
22:30:43 <Linus`> is there an esoteric OS?
22:30:58 <fungot> oerjan: undefined local variable or two
22:31:18 <fizzie> (It's back to irclogs from the politician-talk, if you didn't guess.)
22:31:22 <oerjan> Linus`: the idea crops up frequently
22:32:34 <oerjan> cathyal: somehow the languages implemented here tend not to be symbolic.
22:33:20 <oerjan> fizzie: i don't know, that _could_ be Bush saying that, don't you think?
22:33:28 <Asztal> except in the sense that most of the instructions end up being symbols in the other sense of the word :)
22:34:01 <oerjan> actually what is a symbolic language, precisely?
22:34:03 <fizzie> oerjan: Not the "undefined local variable" one.
22:36:13 <oerjan> i recall the Reader[T] monads are considered nice for environments. i think there are some tutorials.
22:36:39 <fizzie> Hey, I think I crasheded it finally.
22:36:58 <oerjan> also, #haskell is a very friendly channel too, although i haven't been there in a while
22:39:03 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
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22:40:34 <fizzie> There's a two-megabyte log for me to look at now. Later.
22:40:42 <oerjan> now we wait for the results of the autopsy
22:42:46 <fizzie> There's a lot of negative numbers in the stack, and it's somewhere there in the tokens-to-text code. Have to sleep now, the corpse will still be there tomorrow too.
22:52:54 <Asztal> no respect for the dead :(
22:53:21 <oerjan> but but ... it's for science!
22:53:29 <fungot> oerjan: is it possible to do all the design :)... when some of the implementations.
22:53:33 <Asztal> and did you get fungot's permission?
22:53:33 <fungot> Asztal: what's a metasyntactic variable there.
22:56:39 <oerjan> also, fungot is not dead.
22:56:40 <fungot> oerjan: are you a number of much higher-level concurrency abstractions and some other
22:57:07 <oerjan> fungot: i couldn't say
22:57:08 <fungot> oerjan: helsinki.fi cs entrance exam is coding instead of surfing?
22:57:25 <oerjan> fungot: shocking, i know
22:57:26 <fungot> oerjan: which then got reddit'd or something.
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23:06:47 <Asztal> psygnisfive: no, but I am learning that language
23:09:20 <Asztal> how did you know? do you know this word somehow?
23:09:59 * oerjan recalls assuming Asztal was hungarian before
23:10:52 <oklopol> is there some kinda time transition thingie
23:11:03 <oklopol> somewhere around these times
23:11:40 <oklopol> you know, like you turn the knob of the clock
23:11:48 <oklopol> happens a few times per year
23:18:24 <psygnisfive> any combination of s and z is hungarian looking
23:19:37 <Asztal> I usually find that it's polish when I see sz :)
23:19:40 <psygnisfive> its like how you can identify finnish by its excessive double vowels, double consonants, and umlauts EVERYWHERE
23:19:49 <Asztal> gy is very hungarian imo
23:20:03 <psygnisfive> or dutch by its vowel pairs, ij, and short works
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02:01:10 <GregorR> http://www.crazymonkeygames.com/fullscreen.php?game=Pandemic-2 // this game is far more fun than it should be given that the goal is to exterminate humanity.
02:03:51 <Slereah_> Pandemic is actually ^pretty meh
02:04:02 <Slereah_> Once you get how it works, there's no challenge
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02:42:12 <optbot> lament: is amount of coffee consumed actually related to amount of sleep?
02:51:27 <psygnisfive> interestingly, there have been some ideas about how to most effectively waken up with coffee when you're getting sleepy
02:51:41 <psygnisfive> drink a strong cup of coffee and nap for about 15 minutes to half an hour
02:51:50 <psygnisfive> by the time you wake up, the caffeine will be kicking in in full force
02:52:12 <psygnisfive> and having napped, you've gotten some sleep thus reducing your sleepiness
02:56:43 <psygnisfive> so you me and oklopol could have a threesome. :D
03:01:14 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.ectomo.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/footpussy.jpg
03:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I don't name my software like that.
03:07:57 * zbrown stabs all operating systems
03:10:46 <lament> psygnisfive: do you drink coffee with sugar?
03:11:22 <lament> sugar kicks in very quickly
03:21:40 <bsmntbombdood> especially delicious when extracted under high pressure
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04:29:40 <GregorR> It's time to play "spot the GIMPing"!
04:29:46 <GregorR> http://codu.org/pics/other/pec2.jpg // spot the GIMPing!
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04:42:43 <Asztal> nice ball, but the architecture is obvious
04:53:26 <Asztal> hmm, http://codu.org/hats/BritDrivingCap-sm.jpg is a flat cap? I didn't recognise it from that angle, thought it was something else :)
04:54:03 <GregorR> Reload pec2.jpg , I made some fixes.
04:55:22 <Asztal> Looks a lot better now. I think needs some sort of reflection in the cylindrical shiny thing, though, even if it is blurry. And maybe a bit of a shadow.
04:56:40 <GregorR> I don't think it should be reflected ...?
04:56:50 <GregorR> (That is, I don't think my feet are visible)
04:57:45 <GregorR> Please do, that's the skill I lack :P
04:58:16 <psygnisfive> one: the shadow on the ball is dark but the grating isnt as dark
04:58:49 <psygnisfive> look at the direction the light is coming from on your body
04:58:55 <psygnisfive> its coming from the left, reflecting off the wall
04:59:22 <psygnisfive> you're standing in the shadow of a pillar. wheres that light coming from on the ball?
04:59:58 <GregorR> The ball should be lit purely by ambient light I suppose.
05:00:25 <psygnisfive> the lights just coming from the wrong direction
05:00:37 <GregorR> Where should it be coming from? Up and left?
05:00:44 <GregorR> That's what I had before and it seemed funky to me.
05:01:26 <psygnisfive> with some minor specs on the far left and right sides like your shoes
05:09:00 <GregorR> psygnisfive: Refresh. Better or worse?
05:09:52 <psygnisfive> better with the light, but the shadows are still off.
05:10:04 <psygnisfive> look around your feet, see how the shadows on the grating are?
05:10:18 <GregorR> I see how they are, I have no idea how to replicate that.
05:11:06 <GregorR> I have to do this manually, don't I X-P
05:14:23 <oklopol> for absolute photorealism, i recommend filling the screen with #000000
05:14:24 <GregorR> Yeah, I know what you're saying, it's just a bit more tedious than "add a dark area and fade it to 50%" :P
05:15:24 <psygnisfive> just hand paint a new layer with some black
05:16:10 <GregorR> Yeah, but hand painting = a process X-P
05:16:12 <oklopol> yes, just add a layer of black jesus christ
05:17:29 <GregorR> Everything is fine with some black Jesus Christ.
05:19:37 <GregorR> Of course, this time it's uploading SUUUPERSLOOOOOOOWWWWWWWLLLLYYYY
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05:23:05 <GregorR> psygnisfive: Rererererererelook for me? :)
05:23:55 <psygnisfive> better. make it darker right where the ball meets the grate
05:24:29 <oklopol> GregorR: your swing looks pretty fake too
05:24:47 <GregorR> oklopol: That was an actual swing -_-
05:24:58 <oklopol> GregorR: then maybe i'm calling you a nerd :P
05:25:07 <GregorR> oklopol: But it's difficult to swing well when you're being SOAKED IN EFFING FREEZING COLD WATER
05:26:42 <oklopol> yes, GregorR, you should hold mallots like cocks, not like pussies
05:26:51 <oklopol> because, you know, they're sticks
05:27:05 <oklopol> psygnisfive: indeed i didn't
05:29:08 <psygnisfive> infact, bsmntbombdood, you, me, and your girl friend
05:29:17 <oklopol> if you really want me to answer, i guess i could decline, but i'm not sure if you'll prefer that :D
05:30:23 <oklopol> perhaps #esoteric should makes the worlds largest marriage graph
05:31:27 <oklopol> see you later, math exam fun ->
05:31:50 <bsmntbombdood> you don't them them mormons have a dude with more than 36 wives?
05:32:04 <GregorR> That was quite the sentence.
05:32:44 <bsmntbombdood> *you don't think those mormons have a dude with more than 36 wives?
05:33:41 * psygnisfive pulls out two equally awesome ring algebras
05:35:01 <omniscient_idiot> bsmntbombdood: I don't think many mormoms are married to irc bots.
05:35:19 * GregorR swaps out his personality for a bit of fun.
05:35:26 <bsmntbombdood> i've always been interested in teledildonics platforms...
05:36:03 <bsmntbombdood> oh by the way, does anyone here have access to springerlink through their uni?
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06:56:10 <fizzie> The fungot crash log looks like it has generated some babble without the correct terminating '2' in it.
06:56:10 <fungot> fizzie: lemme see if i can
06:58:48 <fizzie> I'm still not sure why in a stack "0 -29 -25 -21 ... 87 91 95 46947 3" executing STRN's 'P' instruction turns the stack into "... 87 91 95 99 3".
07:05:32 -!- immibis has joined.
07:06:25 <immibis> i should find a hobby besides annoying people with irc bots
07:06:50 <fizzie> Is that "using bots to annoy people" or just "annoy people who have bots"?
07:06:59 <immibis> using bots to annoy people
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07:07:53 <fizzie> I guess it could've also been that "people who are both annoying and have bots" was the hobby.
07:08:08 <immibis> no because that doesn't make sense
07:12:59 <Jiminy_Cricket> To the general population, irc bots themselves don't make sense.
07:17:03 <fizzie> My bot doesn't make any sort of sense either. There's no way it could end up in the text output place without having a terminating 2 on the output row. There must be some other issue.
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07:44:15 <optbot> CoffeeBot: just don't claim I made it :)
07:44:16 <optbot> fungot: running qbf results in some state |S>
07:44:16 <fungot> optbot: i have that down, i'll have money
07:44:16 <optbot> fungot: what are the threads?
07:44:16 <fungot> optbot: huh? only tests a single bit index for pheromones are not fnord
07:44:17 <fungot> optbot: ummm...i dont know. that is
07:44:18 <optbot> fungot: this isn't branfuck?
07:44:18 <fungot> optbot: the latter. see the topic)
07:44:36 -!- CoffeeBot has left (?).
07:44:48 <immibis> bug in optbot: what is branfuck?
07:45:03 <immibis> oh, whatever. In fatbot then
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08:06:28 <fizzie> Haven't fungotized the Befungized Underload interp yet, but I bumped the cycle count up a bit.
08:06:28 <fungot> fizzie: they are talking to you
08:08:14 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
08:08:42 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
08:11:24 <fizzie> Newlines are filtered a bit.
08:11:32 <fizzie> But that Underload interp is the brainfuck one.
08:11:34 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>]
08:11:51 <fizzie> It used to be too slow to run that (:aSS):aSS quine.
08:15:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I ran some coverage analysis on efunge when running mycology, you never test wrapping straight up or straight down (so the cardinal y wrapping code is never hit)
08:16:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nor do you go out of bounds above or below the code at all
08:17:08 <fizzie> AnMaster: It might interest you to know that fungot's now running on cfunge. (Testing whether the occasional hangup might be a RC/Funge bug. Probably isn't, but you never know.)
08:17:09 <fungot> fizzie: cat /dev/ mem? how does one convert ( ' ( n e v e r s e))
08:17:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, well you may hit some cfunge bugs, if you do, report
08:18:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I got no idea if rc/funge is valgrind clean, but a debug build of cfunge is, apart from not freeing the handle list used in SOCK and FILE. (So two "still reachable")
08:18:38 <AnMaster> a release build will give a lot more still reachable
08:19:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also you don't test ) for negative values of count it seems :)
08:19:25 <Deewiant> I assume that if you can get it to work in one direction you can get it to work in any other direction.
08:19:54 <AnMaster> indeed, I just had breakfast. Still sleepy...
08:20:14 <Deewiant> hmm, it /should/ try ) with a negative count
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08:20:30 <Deewiant> maybe I typoed and it does ( twice
08:21:10 <fizzie> What should () with negative count do?
08:21:33 <fizzie> But is there some sort of sensible behaviour?
08:21:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well coverage analysis claims you don't try ) with negative
08:21:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but does mycology output "UNDEF: ) with a negative"...
08:21:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, 1) reflect (what I do) 2) pop |count| 3) other
08:22:08 <AnMaster> UNDEF: ( with a negative count reflects and pops 0 times or less than the absolute value of the count
08:22:08 <AnMaster> UNDEF: ) with a negative count reflects and pops 0 times or less than the absolute value of the count
08:22:33 <Deewiant> ah well, I guess I'll have to fix that then
08:23:56 <fizzie> Hacked in that "chroot+setuid after starting" thing so I don't have to have to bother with a real chroot with libraries and everything.
08:23:58 <AnMaster> wtf did someone mess with some bot to make it /msg me?
08:24:18 <AnMaster> "* CoffeeBot__ is making a coffee in an office mug with cold milk to help him wake up for you"
08:24:21 <immibis> i asked it to make coffee on account of you being asleep
08:24:53 <AnMaster> immibis, I don't drink coffee, this morning I had some fruit juice, and a slice of bread
08:27:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you never attempts to unload a valid fingerprint when none is loaded? I'm unsure, it may be that the case is detected earlier in my code than in the fingerprint instr stack popping code.
08:28:11 <AnMaster> no I can't see any obvious place where it would have been detected...
08:29:38 <immibis> oh anmaster your away is set to sleeping
08:30:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nor do you test MODU's signed division for positive x and y I think
08:30:22 <Deewiant> probably because it's not interesting
08:30:35 <Deewiant> again, if it can get it right for negatives it's probably right for positives.
08:31:14 <AnMaster> FIXP's rand() for negative arguments (or equal to 0) isn't tested either
08:31:23 <AnMaster> and that could be worth testing
08:31:31 <AnMaster> if the implementation does rand() % argument
08:32:12 <AnMaster> FIXP's acos() never ends up hitting inf or nan either.
08:32:36 <AnMaster> it's sqrt() doesn't seem to be tested on negative numbers
08:33:15 <AnMaster> CPLI div isn't tested for cases when Bi * Bi + Br * Br == 0
08:34:39 <AnMaster> oh and CPLI's abs() doesn't hit nan or inf either, but that may not be possible. (Unsure).
08:35:19 <Deewiant> there are edge cases everywhere, I can't be bothered to test every single one.
08:36:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the FIXP randomness one could be worth testing, since I'm sure at least cfunge would have gotten division by zero there originally. (It doesn't since a few months, due to my fuzz testing)
08:38:48 <AnMaster> immibis, glad you didn't forget to remove the milk from the orange juice :P
08:41:02 <immibis> theres currently three ghosts of coffeebot online due to lag and apparently the server is not disconnecting them
08:41:30 <immibis> ...ok the first disconnected
08:42:18 <AnMaster> immibis, I got two messages from that bot both times
08:42:45 <AnMaster> so two of them at least were alive at the same time
08:43:25 <immibis> no i sent the first, it lagged and got ghosted, so i restarted it and sent the second
08:43:46 <immibis> its a very badly coded bot. it needs recompiling to change the nick it connects with, and if the nick is in use it does nothing
08:45:16 -!- CoffeeBot has joined.
08:45:43 <oklocod> immibis: easy way out, add a "raw" command
08:45:59 <ais523> immibis: ThutuBot needs recompiling to change its nick too...
08:46:06 <AnMaster> immibis, as it is here is it 1) coded in an esolang or 2) runs esolang related stuff?
08:46:08 <oklocod> oh, well doesn't help if nick is in use to begin with
08:46:15 <AnMaster> ais523, didn't know you were here
08:46:20 -!- CoffeeBot has left (?).
08:46:31 <ais523> so I'll be uncommunicative for a while
08:46:57 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol.
08:47:07 <fizzie> fungot needs source-code-changes to change the nick too (surprise!) and also doesn't really handle the nick-in-use case.
08:47:08 <fungot> fizzie: " yes." however, i cannot put a let statment are evaluated is compiler-defined.
08:47:22 <fizzie> fungot: That's not a real explanation.
08:47:22 <fungot> fizzie: i must depart. but, yeah, i don't really know
08:47:42 <AnMaster> oklopol, ... It just sounded funny in Swedish kind of
08:48:38 <oklopol> AnMaster: i was half making fun of you, and half actually laughing at the typo, so neither of you need be offended!
08:48:39 <AnMaster> so in my head it turned out somewhat like ionized by mixing the Swedish meaning with the English -ed suffix.
08:48:51 <fizzie> oklopol: Are you sure that doesn't mean both can get offended.
08:50:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, those changes for chroot + setuid means you need to start it as root right?
08:50:27 <AnMaster> hm... I wonder how that interacts with resource limits...
08:50:29 <ais523> most OSs only let root chroot things
08:50:46 <AnMaster> ais523, he could make the binary suid root ;P
08:50:57 <AnMaster> and also how it interacts with PERL.
08:51:07 <ais523> where non-root can chroot things IIRC
08:51:20 <fizzie> Yes. (Well, you could do it with the correct capabilities too, I guess.) It drops root privileges immediately after parsing the getopt results, though.
08:51:24 <AnMaster> ais523, really? Well I doubt it means anything for security in cygwin.
08:51:25 <ais523> although it doesn't really work like a typical secure chroot, as all the Win32 API functions just ignore it
08:51:35 <ais523> AnMaster: yep, it's just there so chroot stuff works
08:52:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm if it drops it there then it needs to have the source file in the chroot
08:52:43 <fizzie> Although the user it setuid()s to only has read permissions for the source file, not write.
08:54:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, fun fact: avoid loading your language model data using i if you ever planned changing, cfunge uses mmap() to simply reading (handling \r\n across the boundary between two fread() chunks was just too painful...)
08:55:59 <fizzie> I don't think I'll ever try to get that language model stuff to the funge-space; it seems to work just fine by simply seeking around the file and reading few bytes here and there.
08:56:57 <fizzie> cfunge's quite a bit faster than RC/Funge, though. Changed the brainfuck interpreter amount-of-instructions limit from 200k to 600k, and it still says "out of time" in a reasonable time, I think
08:57:29 <AnMaster> and yes cfunge is fast, that was one of the design goals
08:57:36 <AnMaster> tracing slows it down a lot though
08:57:39 <fizzie> And 600k is enough for the Underload quine, most importantly.
08:58:06 <ais523> it worries me that a quine would need a limit of 600k...
08:58:09 <AnMaster> since it traces to stderr, and stderr is unbuffered
08:58:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, 600 * 1024 bf instructions?
08:58:54 <ais523> (the second one is Keymaker's version, it works a different way)
08:59:11 <fizzie> AnMaster: Actually 600000. And it's bytecode instructions, so things like +++++ are a single instruction.
08:59:25 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>]
09:00:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh an idea, [-] into c (clear cell)
09:00:34 <fizzie> Around 800 instructions unless I missed some other instruction in-between.
09:00:35 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp
09:00:46 <fizzie> No, ctcp is immediately after ul; so 800 instructions, then.
09:01:15 <fizzie> They're in the state file in the same order as in ^show.
09:01:29 <fizzie> I looked into that to see how long the program was when compiled into that bytecode.
09:02:12 <AnMaster> oh and G in FILE is quite ineffective in cfunge.
09:02:20 <AnMaster> so avoid it in performance critical code
09:02:30 <ais523> AnMaster: you mean "inefficient", I think
09:02:34 <ais523> "ineffective" means "doesn't work"
09:02:44 <AnMaster> it works but is kind of suboptimal
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09:02:56 <AnMaster> (it reads one char at a time then appends those to a string buffer)
09:02:59 <fizzie> G is used only at startup when it loads the state-file. It was easiest to do line-delimited stuff there.
09:03:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, I guess it works well enough for that
09:04:03 <AnMaster> ais523, and "ineffektivt" in Swedish means "inefficient"
09:04:35 <ais523> "I see what you mean now"
09:04:36 <AnMaster> like you knew it but had momentarily forgot it?
09:04:48 <ais523> so it was a case of remembering, too
09:04:58 * AnMaster don't remember having mentioned it
09:05:26 <ais523> you made the same mistake a few weeks ago, and I corrected you then, IIRC
09:06:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway did you do a release build or a debug buil?
09:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | For outputting BugSophia: Gimme a RUNIC LETTER STAN!.
09:10:57 <fizzie> A release build, I think; I just bzr'd your thing, then ran cmake with -DUSE_64BIT=OFF (I don't really need 64-bit addressing and that box is an oldish Pentium M) and -DJAIL=ON (the chroot thing).
09:11:51 <AnMaster> actually that may be something in between
09:12:16 <AnMaster> since CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE wouldn't be set
09:12:51 <AnMaster> considered release by cfunge's "clean up on exit to please valgrind code"
09:13:46 <fizzie> If the cmake-generated flags.make has all the cflags, then it indeed doesn't seem to have -O2 in it.
09:14:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, cfunge builds and works fine at -O3 -fweb even here
09:14:56 <AnMaster> but I'm unsure about flags.make
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09:15:26 <AnMaster> C_FLAGS = -pipe -march=k8 -O2 -msse3 -O3 -DNDEBUG -fweb -I/home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src ....
09:15:38 <AnMaster> and C_FLAGS = -pipe -march=k8 -msse3 -ggdb3 -I/home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src ...
09:18:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, so it could probably be even faster :D
09:19:05 <AnMaster> for that "game of life in befunge 93" -O3 makes a *LOT* of difference
09:19:11 <AnMaster> however it will be harder to catch bugs
09:19:50 <fizzie> Okay, I did -O3 now, just in case. (Actually I just ran ccmake on the build dir and changed the build type to Release, it seems to have added at least -O3 there.)
09:20:04 <ais523> why do people have difficulty debugging at O3, by the way?
09:20:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, you may want to set -march
09:20:22 <ais523> yes, it makes the code jump around a lot
09:20:37 <ais523> and you can't always variable queries directly
09:20:43 <ais523> but normally there's some way to get at the value
09:20:51 <AnMaster> ais523, x86 asm dump, register dump, sure whatever
09:20:52 <ais523> like evaluating an expression that's in the code
09:21:09 <ais523> e.g. if you're calling a function with the arg (y*2)+1
09:21:13 <AnMaster> (since I find x86 asm bloody awful)
09:21:14 <ais523> then p (y*2)+1 normally works
09:21:26 <fizzie> So, how do I add extra CFLAGS to that thing easily?
09:21:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, in ccmake you hit t for "advanced screen"
09:22:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, called CMAKE_CFLAGS or something like that iirc
09:22:58 <AnMaster> the resulting cflags will be CMAKE_C_FLAGS + CMAKE_C_FLAGS_${YOUR BUILD TYPE IN UPPERCASE}
09:23:06 <fizzie> Must restart that thing, then.
09:23:13 -!- fungot has quit ("flaggity flag").
09:23:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, well yeah cfunge doesn't do hot code swapping ;P
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09:24:13 <fizzie> At least the brainfuck infinite-loop was faster.
09:24:17 <fizzie> And that, too, I guess.
09:24:26 <AnMaster> didn't really dee any difference
09:24:48 <AnMaster> ah yes, a bit over 10 seconds before. less than 10 now
09:24:56 <fizzie> This time five seconds (as seen from my viewpoint; and we're on the same server with fungot). Last time it was 14 seconds.
09:24:57 <fungot> fizzie: i'll make one. when does sxyz ignore its argument?
09:25:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, well for the "game of life" for example, as I said it makes huge difference
09:25:40 <AnMaster> now that was quite a bit faster
09:25:55 <AnMaster> but it isn't in bf interpreted by befunge either
09:25:57 <ais523> AnMaster: thutubot's Underload interp is written in Thutu, rather than being written in BF written in Funge...
09:26:15 <ais523> ofc neither is particularly efficient, but I suspect thutubot's method is faster
09:26:37 <fizzie> The stand-alone Funge-98 Underload seems pretty fast.
09:26:44 <ais523> and thutubot got a lot faster once I started storing the timeout counter in balanced binary rather than in unary
09:26:47 <fizzie> Should just stick it into the bot.
09:27:08 <AnMaster> considering it may have fixed ideas about temp storage locations
09:27:24 <fizzie> Yes, a few numbers need to be changed.
09:27:38 <fizzie> Still, I wrote it with the intention of sticking it into the bot sooner or later.
09:27:39 <ais523> AnMaster: binary with digits 1,0,-1
09:27:47 <ais523> it uses 1 and 0 normally
09:27:54 <AnMaster> ais523, well so does computers
09:27:56 <ais523> but once the count reaches 0 it starts filling it with -1s
09:28:07 <ais523> because it's easier to figure out when it reaches the end that way
09:28:11 <ais523> I use the -1s for carry propagation
09:28:19 <ais523> well, borrow propagation
09:28:29 <ais523> because arithmetic via regex is hard
09:28:52 <ais523> Thutu arithmetic is probably easier than INTERCAL arithmetic, though, still...
09:29:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster, fizzie: just run inside a {, that's the main reason the instruction exists :-P
09:30:08 <oklopol> hmm, probabilities, and satisfaction don't really mix in my head
09:30:09 <ais523> hmm... a sandbox fingerprint?
09:30:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: I don't like {; it gets so messy to access not-related-to-the-code storage then.
09:30:17 <oklopol> *probabilities and satisfaction
09:30:20 <AnMaster> 1) make = in efunge evaluate erlang expressions 2) Make = mark the program as "tainted", somewhat like when you load a binary module into the linux kernel
09:30:39 <oklopol> i'm having a hard time even implementing just the brute-force way to interpret noprob
09:30:41 <Deewiant> fizzie: well, you're not supposed to do that :-P
09:30:43 <fizzie> Deewiant: Plus I don't like the fact that it sets storage offset to ip+delta; is there even a comfortable way of specifying an arbitrary storage offset?
09:30:48 <ais523> AnMaster: can you untaint the program by matching it against a regex?
09:30:52 <ais523> that works for Perl...
09:31:02 <Deewiant> fizzie: {, followed by u to push what offset you want, followed by }
09:31:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: There's the input given to the program, for one thing. And the output going out. I don't want to copy that around all the time.
09:31:10 <ais523> AnMaster: in Perl tainted data is data that comes from an unknown source
09:31:19 <ais523> the only way to untaint it is to run it through a regex
09:31:24 <AnMaster> ais523, ah well I meant in the same meaning as the linux kernel
09:31:27 <ais523> captured groups from the regex are untainted
09:31:29 <Deewiant> fizzie: I think you could push the output via u unless you're mutating it a lot
09:31:44 <Deewiant> and the input you could place inside the { area
09:31:50 <ais523> oklopol: because the Perl interp assumes you know what you're doing
09:31:52 <AnMaster> ais523, which is "binary/closed source module has been loaded, any crash backtrace will be unusable for kernel developers"
09:31:58 <ais523> and that the regex was defined to check that the input was safe
09:32:29 <ais523> so you can just do $unsafeinput =~ /^(.*)$/; $safeinput=$1;
09:32:37 <ais523> if you know anything but newlines are safe
09:32:46 <ais523> if you were expecting a number you do $unsafeinput
09:33:09 <ais523> *if you were expecting a number you do $unsafeinput =~ /^(-?[0-9]+)$/ or die; $safeinput=$1;
09:33:15 <ais523> that way you get an untainted number or an error
09:33:16 <fizzie> Deewiant: Okay, u-output could work. I just like the well-specified absolute addresses more. On the other hand, if this ATHR thing ever gets off the ground and I want to run interpreters concurrently, I guess I'll sort-of need to use the storage offset to help the different instances coexist.
09:33:17 <oklopol> and you can't do anything but matching with an unsafe string?
09:33:31 <ais523> you can do most things but the result is tainted
09:33:37 <ais523> e.g. concatentating it, or whatever
09:33:53 <ais523> there are various things you can't do: you can't pass it as input to a shell command, for instance
09:34:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: Actually using 'u' didn't occur to me; I'm more of a Befunge-93 person.
09:34:06 <AnMaster> ais523, what if you want to do it with something else than regex? Maybe write your own code to check it in a custom way, like is the normal way in for example C?
09:34:26 <ais523> AnMaster: well you just pass it to a regex at the end to tell Perl you've checked it
09:34:30 <ais523> it needs checking, and it needs a regex
09:34:36 <ais523> the checking doesn't have to be in the regex though
09:34:47 <AnMaster> ais523, that seems rather silly to me
09:35:04 <AnMaster> what about matching but keeping it tainted?
09:35:14 <ais523> you can taint data whenever you like
09:35:29 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway see above for what I actually meant
09:35:34 <ais523> yes, I know what you meant
09:35:42 <oklopol> the problem with variables with a probability in noprob is, you can't just store the probability, becauce vars may not be independent
09:36:03 <ais523> incidentally, doesn't y have a code for meaning "= has the same meaning as eval in the lang this interpreter is written in"?
09:36:32 <ais523> oklopol: ah, I know what you're getting at
09:36:40 <ais523> that's the same problem people have simulating a quantum computer
09:36:53 <ais523> you have lots of probabilities that depend on each other, so it's a pain to simualte
09:37:07 <ais523> except with a quantum computer it's worse because the probabilities are complex numbers
09:37:22 <fizzie> Regex is not the only way, though: "Values may be untainted by using them as keys in a hash; otherwise the only way to bypass the tainting mechanism is by referencing subpatterns from a regular expression match."
09:37:34 <ais523> ah, I forgot the keys in a hash one
09:37:42 <ais523> although I don't really get why it exists
09:37:43 <oklopol> ais523: but i was thinking, perhaps i should store everything the variable depends on and their independent probability, and check if vars are independent with an intersection
09:37:53 <AnMaster> did anyone understand xkcd today?
09:38:07 <oklopol> so i can use math in most cases, because usually the vars do *not* depend on each other
09:38:10 <ais523> oklopol: that sounds like an optimisation, does it solve the underlying problem though?
09:38:49 <fizzie> ais523: So you can untaint $x with the very pretty $x = (keys %{{ $x => 1 }})[0]; construct.
09:38:52 <oklopol> ais523: if the vars aren't independent, i will take all random vars the variables depend on, and enumerate all possible settings for them
09:39:06 <oklopol> and check what the probability is for each pair
09:39:07 <ais523> fizzie: does that even need the keys in there
09:39:27 <ais523> $x = (%{{$x=>1}})[0] would work, wouldn't it?
09:39:48 <fizzie> Yes, I think it would.
09:39:54 <ais523> or would it need to be written $x= @{[%{{$x=>1}}
09:40:00 <fizzie> The intention is clearer with the "keys". :p
09:40:00 <ais523> or would it need to be written $x= @{[%{{$x=>1}}]}[0]
09:40:07 <ais523> Perl casts are great...
09:40:25 <ais523> fizzie: that keys is inefficient!
09:43:43 <fizzie> AnMaster: "Burma-Shave was an American brand of brushless shaving cream, famous for its advertising gimmick of posting humorous rhyming poems on small, consecutive highway billboard signs."
09:44:24 <oklopol> what's it called when you use those funky trees to get optimal prefix-codes for tokens?
09:45:06 <fizzie> oklopol: Huffman coding?
09:46:25 <ais523> there's Shannon coding too but normally it doesn't work as well
09:46:36 <ais523> but in theory, you could end up with neither of them being optimal
09:47:04 <ais523> 90% 1 vs. 10% 0, the most optimal method is not to give them one bit each
09:47:18 <ais523> you could have, for instance, 00=0, 01=1, 1=111
09:47:29 <ais523> but I don't think Huffman coders take that sort of thing into accoutn
09:47:30 <oklopol> well that's a different coding scheme
09:47:44 <ais523> oklopol: well, isn't that proof that Huffman isn't always optimal?
09:47:47 <oklopol> no. of course you can get better compression given more sophisticated schemes
09:47:54 <oklopol> ais523: nothing is always optimal
09:48:17 <oklopol> huffman is optimal if you only have codes for *single tokens*, and codes are static
09:48:32 <oklopol> but, shannon is *never* optimal
09:48:37 <ais523> markov-chain codes tend to do better
09:48:46 <ais523> it's only optimal when it has the same result as Huffman
09:48:49 <oklopol> of course it's sometimes optimal, but it's never always optimal :P
09:50:37 <AnMaster> I have an optimal compression algorithm for some common data in esolang contexts
09:51:12 <AnMaster> most significant bit set = "Hello, World!", most significant bit not set = 99 Bottles of beer. Any other value is ignored.
09:51:38 <oklopol> "any other value is ignored"? :D
09:52:03 <oklopol> please show example of ignored encoding
09:52:04 <ais523> AnMaster: that's very HQ9+-like
09:52:04 <AnMaster> oklopol, well yeah, I didn't say it could encode everything did I?
09:52:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, as in "any other bit but the MSB is ignored"
09:52:23 <fizzie> oklopol: Most significant bit. I assume it's a multi-bit number we're talking about.
09:52:42 <ais523> hmm... is "Hello, World!" a quine in HQ9+...
09:52:44 <oklopol> i'm just being pedantic here, fizzie
09:52:54 <fizzie> oklopol: Yes, I'm just being slow. :p
09:52:59 <oklopol> 1 = hw, 0 = 99bob, X = ignored
09:55:36 <fizzie> 'X' - strong drive, unknown logic value
09:56:19 <oklopol> it shall not take any value for an answer!
09:57:07 <ais523> oklopol: high impedance is Z
09:57:17 <ais523> fizzie: actually, normally I treat "X" as meaning "short circuit"
09:57:26 <ais523> because it's what you get if you strongly drive something to both 0 and 1
09:57:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, I think they are thinking VHDL
09:57:46 <ais523> yes, 9-valued booleans
09:57:58 <oklopol> AnMaster: well i'm thinking just general circuits
09:58:24 <ais523> anyway, even if you aren't an electronic engineer I think you can appreciate that strongly driving the same part of the circuit simultaneously to 0 and 1 is a bad idea
09:58:58 <AnMaster> and what about driving faster than speed limit?
09:58:58 <ais523> weak driving is via a resistor
09:59:03 <ais523> whereas strong driving is direct
09:59:14 <ais523> in theory, strongly driving something to 0 is like connecting it to the negative power supply
09:59:26 <ais523> and strongly driving something to 1 is like connecting it to the positive power supply
09:59:43 <ais523> whereas weak driving can be overriden via strong driving
09:59:53 <ais523> strong 0 + strong 1 = short circuit (X)
09:59:59 <ais523> strong 0 + weak 1 = strong 0
10:00:13 <AnMaster> so what do you get when you connect something to both? Say a lamp to both ends of a battery?
10:00:13 <ais523> weak 0 + weak 1 = weak 0.5, or some other non-integral value (W)
10:00:25 <ais523> AnMaster: the lamp itself is a resistor there
10:00:41 <ais523> basically whatever you put between 0 and 1 either has to block the current, or use up the energy flowing through it
10:00:52 <ais523> if you put a wire there, it can't block the current because it's a wire and designed not to
10:00:59 <ais523> so it has to use up the energy flowing through it
10:01:05 <ais523> which it normally does by becoming very hot and melting
10:01:08 * AnMaster puts a diod the wrong way around between ais523's 1 and 0
10:01:24 <ais523> AnMaster: which way's "the wrong way"?
10:01:30 <ais523> reverse, so it blocks the current?
10:01:37 <ais523> or forward, so it doesn't block the current and catches fire?
10:01:46 <ais523> arguably reverse polarity is the safer one here
10:02:11 <fizzie> On the other hand it doesn't accomplish anything.
10:02:23 <AnMaster> hopefully that should give you radio Moscow (iirc)
10:02:24 <fizzie> At least the one catching fire is doing something.
10:02:30 <ais523> it does actually, because you can put an ammeter across the diode and determine how leaky it is
10:02:34 <AnMaster> ais523, and iirc you read the book so you should get that reference
10:02:36 <ais523> which is useful if you're into measuring diodes
10:02:46 <fizzie> Misread "because you can put an AnMaster across the diode and determine how leaky it is"
10:03:02 <ais523> measuring diodes is more useful than setting them on fire, IIRC
10:03:05 <fizzie> I'm not sure which one is the leaky one here.
10:03:28 <fizzie> ais523: If you *recall* correctly? So, uh, you read that in a book?
10:03:36 <AnMaster> ais523, didn't get the reference?...
10:03:38 <ais523> I meant IMO rather than IIRC, I think
10:03:57 <ais523> AnMaster: I almost got it, but wasn't sure what it was
10:04:05 <ais523> I thought "there's a reference to something there"
10:04:22 <ais523> still don't get the reference, although I know it exists
10:04:25 <AnMaster> ais523, if you still can't figure it out you need to re-read that book
10:04:38 <ais523> and yes, everyone needs to re-read Good Omens
10:04:40 <ais523> as many times as possible
10:04:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I have 5 times or so at least
10:04:54 <fizzie> I just read it not many weeks ago; do I _really_ have to reread it again?
10:05:02 <ais523> I've only read it about 3 times so far
10:05:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, you don't get the reference either!?
10:05:48 <fizzie> AnMaster: I assume it's something Newton Pulsifer did; but ais523 said everyone needs to reread it anyway.
10:07:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, the book mentioned some magazine once published a "joke circuit schema" that wouldn't work, but when Newton Pulsifer built it, it received Radio Moscow
10:07:16 <fizzie> Yes, I remember that bit.
10:07:21 <ais523> ah yes, I remember that now
10:07:27 <AnMaster> it also mentioned "diods the wrong way around"
10:08:15 <AnMaster> really you need to work a bit on your Pratchett trivia knowledge ;P
10:09:04 <AnMaster> also it may have been some other station than "Radio Moscow", not 100% sure there
10:10:08 <fizzie> "It had diodes the wrong way round, transistors upside down, and a flat battery. Newt had built it, and it picked up Radio Moscow."
10:13:39 <oklopol> fucking unimplementable :|
10:13:52 <ais523> oklopol: hmm... Feather makes me feel the same way, or worse
10:13:58 <ais523> because I'm almost convinced it is implementable
10:14:06 <ais523> I just find it really hard to figure out how
10:14:38 <oklopol> the problem is, usually i can at least implement some incredibly slow brute-force interpreter
10:14:51 <oklopol> but in this case that's simply excruciatingly hard
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10:37:28 <fizzie> I don't know, it came from a .rtf file in that same pile I used for fungot's discworld training. :p
10:37:29 <fungot> fizzie: factloop is recursive, but it's handy.
10:37:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, Good Omens aren't discworld
10:37:59 <fizzie> Yes, I meant the same "around a thousand ebooks" pile.
10:38:25 <AnMaster> also a thousand... that's a lot of ebooks
10:38:33 <fizzie> None of them legal is my guess.
10:38:55 <fizzie> 600 megabytes; got that as a CD several years ago from a friend.
10:39:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, what dict is fungot on now?
10:39:26 <fungot> AnMaster: mwahah life is good. it is
10:39:44 <fizzie> And he certainly seems to enjoy it.
10:39:58 <fungot> ais523: if you email the mit scheme ref. google just turns up mailing list posts
10:40:01 <optbot> ais523: El dato que nada importa.
10:40:15 <ais523> hmm... thutubot doesn't react when I mention its name
10:40:36 * ais523 wonders how long it will be before optbot starts returning fungot-generated stuff
10:40:36 <optbot> ais523: of course +1 is wrong :)
10:40:36 <fungot> ais523: when i came across a program once control will never re-enter that point, then later hit i to go into grad school
10:40:58 <fizzie> Optimally you need a third paradigm for babble-generation; optbot and fungot are slightly different, after all.
10:40:59 <fungot> fizzie: yeah, that doesn't halt?
10:40:59 <optbot> fizzie: Of course as far as I know I'm the only person to use this pronoun.
10:41:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes, but what one would that be?
10:41:30 <ais523> markov-chaining the letters?
10:41:30 <fizzie> And I think it's only fair fungot's the one who's more messed-up in the head.
10:41:30 <fungot> fizzie: should be " prefix", and that functionality which can be adjust with forms like this:
10:41:47 <oerjan> hm fungot needs a corpus made from famous speeches
10:41:47 <fungot> oerjan: fnord firefox doesn't have bugs? will paredit be classified as an esolang
10:41:50 <ais523> we had alicebot vs. fungot a while ago IIRC
10:41:51 <fungot> ais523: you know if the source code
10:41:59 <ais523> but I was trying to think up something unusual
10:42:14 <oerjan> "Fnord and seven years ago ..."
10:42:17 <AnMaster> To be or not to fnord, kindom for a fnord
10:42:21 <ais523> an order-3 markov chain on letters not words would probably result in absolute nonsense, with no advantages other than being pronouncable
10:42:30 <fizzie> The lovecraft texts generated a _lot_ of fnords.
10:42:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, what would that be from?
10:43:10 <fizzie> fungot: Do some Cthulhu stuff again for a bit.
10:43:10 <fungot> fizzie: i tried not to heed him; tried to break through the paralysis which held me, and now and then to burst forth in a fnord anywhere that afforded me an opportunity to be near the college, and am fnord of get'g, there be'g ii. goode fnord in towne, dr, bowen and sam: fnord.
10:43:47 <AnMaster> and get'g well yeah both ' and g gets from funge space
10:43:55 <ais523> Thutubot wouldn't really be suited for random gibberish though
10:44:01 <ais523> as Thutu has no random number function
10:44:09 <oerjan> oh actually, "Four fnord and seven years ago ..."
10:44:13 <ais523> and no really sensible way to store data but the source code
10:44:16 <fizzie> "be'g" as in "being" in a folksy way.
10:44:51 <ais523> Thutu would probably be good at that
10:44:54 <ais523> but I don't like alicebots
10:45:03 <fizzie> I don't think I have a lot of speeches available right now. The Europarl speeches generated quite nonsensical stuff.
10:45:09 <ais523> they always sound stupid and aritifical
10:45:18 <AnMaster> ais523, I seen some pretty good ones
10:45:30 <ais523> and they just keep on talking on the same subject as me
10:45:35 <ais523> people never do that in real life
10:45:41 <AnMaster> that can keep track of different topics for different speakers
10:45:56 <AnMaster> ais523, so you need to mess around with that a bit so it sometimes changes topic
10:45:58 <ais523> also, the vocabulary tends to be limited to mine
10:46:19 <ais523> probably why I don't like alicebots is obvious if you just pipe two of them into each other
10:46:27 <ais523> the result tends to be obviously awful
10:46:40 <ais523> because both of them are trying to generate a conversation off what the other says
10:46:44 <ais523> whilst being non-commital themself
10:46:53 <ais523> because they don't know about any subjects themself...
10:46:54 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettysburg_Address#Lincoln.27s_Gettysburg_Address
10:47:14 <ais523> oerjan: Wikiquote will be better for Wikipedia for that sort of thing, probably
10:47:21 <AnMaster> ais523, what about mixing that up with some markov stuff?
10:47:36 <fizzie> Okay, I fed it everything in my gutenberg pile having the word "speeches" in the title. :p
10:47:45 <fizzie> fungot: Be pompous for us, please.
10:47:45 <fungot> fizzie: in the mean time, it was done. before that, two indians were placed on the council of the fnord fnord
10:48:08 <fizzie> Ooh, the council of the fnord fnord.
10:48:12 <ais523> that makes sense apart from the fnords
10:48:56 <fungot> AnMaster: i consider this, sir, i greatly deceive myself, that the judge is to hear the government accused of avoiding the discussion of the right honourable baronet proposes to punish brazil for the slave trade, not in themselves presumptively criminal, but actions neutral and indifferent the whole matter, in which mode of government, there is an archbishop with ten thousand a year, he has done for him more than the ordinary b
10:48:56 <ais523> actually, I've had a brilliant idea for something to Markov-chain
10:49:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, you just changed to EU one?
10:49:31 <ais523> if you markov on compressed text, presumably it'll still have the right format, apart from maybe checksums
10:49:31 <fungot> AnMaster: yours very sincerely and respectfully, abraham lincoln, fnord
10:49:49 <fizzie> Here's the list: http://zem.fi/~fis/speeches.txt
10:49:55 <ais523> and decompressing it will presumably lead to something with a coherent subject
10:50:03 <oerjan> oh so lincoln was a fnord too
10:50:03 <ais523> because the same things will be said on many occasions
10:50:11 <fungot> AnMaster: " there are who, while to vulgar eyes they seem of all my honours, i am sure that my colleagues will not fnord, seeing that there is a fnord, is almost totally wanting, and then you will be prepared against these inconveniences.
10:50:52 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you know where to cut it off then?
10:51:05 <ais523> AnMaster: include EOF in the markov chain, obviously
10:51:28 <AnMaster> ais523, no I mean would you be able to cut off after any byte?
10:51:35 <AnMaster> I don't know the format for gzip well
10:51:39 <ais523> yes, you markov-chain the bytes
10:51:56 <AnMaster> ais523, would that really work?
10:52:02 <ais523> at the highest order you can get away with without verbatimising
10:52:08 <ais523> and almost certainly not, but it would be great to try
10:53:22 <ais523> going for a while, I need to get food
10:53:30 <fizzie> Misread "I need to get fnord".
10:53:37 <fizzie> Thanks to all the fnords here lately.
10:53:53 <fizzie> Haven't tried Shakespeare, no. He's not in the preprocessed Gutenberg books I have for that other project, so it'd need some text-extraction.
10:55:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hamlet
10:55:15 <fizzie> Not sure where I could get conversational text easily, except the IRC logs. (And the telephone conversations, but I tried that already.)
10:55:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, you could filter it to just be the actual phrases said, removing all "enter Hamlet" "exit hamlet"
10:56:02 <fizzie> Actually wait, Shakespeare is there.
10:56:47 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/ss.txt
10:57:01 <fizzie> I guess I could try that too, although it probably won't be very interesting.
10:57:24 <oerjan> the fnordity should be staggering
10:57:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, would be nice to try at least
10:59:13 <fungot> fizzie: ' so in thyself thyself art made away; a mischief worse than civil home-bred strife, fnord or, hubert, hubert throw thine eye on yon young boy: ile tell thee more.
10:59:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, how does it handle ' ?
10:59:37 <fungot> AnMaster: ped. keepe your hundred pounds to yourself: he shall draw; he shall tap; said i well, bully hector?
10:59:50 <fungot> AnMaster: iohn. i will presentlie goe learne their day of marriage, and things, and to confine yourself to fnord house convey our arms, quartered within his fnord th' expense of many a blasting hour, let it no more on height of our care, sir.
10:59:59 <fizzie> Inside words, ' is just part of the token; so "foo's" is one token while "foo" is another.
11:00:29 <fizzie> Things that look like "'foo bar baz'" get turned into "opening single quote, foo, bar, baz, closing single quote".
11:00:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, You are unusually random aren't you?
11:00:48 <AnMaster> fungot, You are unusually random aren't you?
11:00:48 <fungot> AnMaster: brutus. enough, i warrant you
11:01:02 <fungot> AnMaster: louel seemes to stay. you, in the meane time, some show in the posterior of the day
11:01:14 <fizzie> I'm not sure what it does with "'tis" and "th'". Probably interprets "'tis .. th'" as a single-quoted string.
11:01:51 <fungot> optbot: laf. and shall i flye? i haue told thee, of a most homely fnord man, aufidius, piercing our fnord then we thought them none, her eie is sicke on't, i would
11:01:52 <fungot> optbot: ant. now my spirit is thine the better part made mercie, i should
11:01:52 <optbot> fungot: we could add type inference
11:01:52 <fungot> optbot: as through an arch so hurried the blown tide as the recomforted through the gates of millaine, and ith' dead of darkenesse the ministers for th' present. get thee to bed.
11:01:52 <optbot> fungot: that's where I stop agreeing :P
11:01:53 <fungot> optbot: iago. i'll send him ( for so i thought i had, i neuer spent an houres talke withall. his eye is hollow, and hee must needes goe that the diuell driues
11:01:53 <optbot> fungot: you were all hardcore anti scheme
11:02:10 <oerjan> i think optbot didn't like that
11:02:11 <optbot> oerjan: Glyph means symbol, right? (or atleast something similar)
11:02:32 <fizzie> It looks shakespeareanistic, but all in all not terribly funny.
11:03:44 <fizzie> Heh, 514 megabytes of language models already. (Lewis Carroll, Darwin, Europarl, telephone calls, IRC logs, lovecraft, those speeches and now Shakespeare.)
11:03:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, well this will be fun when it gets into optbot
11:03:46 <optbot> AnMaster: so no need to pack more closely
11:04:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, I got to say irc is the one that worked best so far
11:04:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about that idea with wikipedia talk pages?
11:05:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, would be nice to see how ais reacts when he get back on that too :D
11:05:12 <fizzie> Maybe. Should probably check out whether the pre-supplied Wikipedia data dumps include talk page contents.
11:05:28 <fungot> AnMaster: then there is schem48...
11:05:30 <optbot> AnMaster: With practice, dream recall can be "learned".
11:05:30 <optbot> fungot: cygwin is yer friend
11:05:30 <fungot> optbot: thinking huh? maybe file it upstream?
11:05:31 <optbot> fungot: in that case, you've missed the joke entirely
11:05:31 <fungot> optbot: i've never seen that problem before, which is odd
11:05:31 <optbot> fungot: Of course predictably it still doesn't work :|
11:05:32 <fungot> optbot: sometimes watching the politics here, it was used
11:05:32 <optbot> fungot: !pager %a A C T I O N s h o w s S i m o n R C%a
11:05:32 <fungot> optbot: fnord/ fnord it was simply suggested that there should be
11:05:42 <fizzie> Cleaned up the files a bit.
11:05:54 <fizzie> "pages-full.xml.bz2/7z - Current revisions, all pages (includes talk and user pages)"
11:06:06 <fizzie> For some reason they don't do database dumps including only talk pages. :p
11:07:10 <fizzie> Trying to figure out. Apparently the dumps aren't exactly those as the wiki page describes.
11:07:34 <fizzie> "Discussion and user pages."
11:08:03 <fizzie> Yes. Talk pages should contain at least a bit of chatter.
11:09:20 <fizzie> I'd like to fetch the talk pages only, but apparently there's only "articles without talk" and "articles, user pages and talk" dumps.
11:10:40 <AnMaster> could take quite a while to download
11:10:46 <fizzie> I wonder if that's worth trying.
11:11:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, also you need to restrict yourself to a subset of the talk pages
11:12:00 <fizzie> ETA 2 hours, apparently.
11:12:54 <fizzie> Around 1.7 megabytes / sec. Not too shabby, although far from the speeds I used to get back when I still lived on the university student housing place.
11:14:32 <fizzie> Maybe I should look around our department's file system; so far I've just looked at the speech group's "text" directory.
11:15:32 <fizzie> At least the natlang people have a "corpora" directory.
11:16:13 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
11:19:45 <fizzie> It's that XML MediaWiki export format... I guess I can pipe the file through bunzip2 and some script to output only the interesting things, so I don't need to actually uncompress that 8-gigabyte file.
11:21:42 <fizzie> No, I'll probably need to tweak the script so much that it's better to have a local copy.
11:21:49 <fizzie> But bzcat's pretty much "bunzip2 -c".
11:22:05 <fizzie> Er, I mean, "bzip2 -dc".
11:22:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, how large would the expanded file be?
11:23:02 <fizzie> I'm sure I'll find some use for a local Wikipedia dump other than just fungot, sooner or later. (Although it'll be pretty dated fast.)
11:23:02 <fungot> fizzie: i also put an fnord man as the child of a, having b fnord a a fnord maybe b
11:23:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, if you update the irc model remember to filter fungot itself first please
11:23:58 <fizzie> Do the bzip2 headers include uncompressed size? The wiki-dump-download-site doesn't say.
11:23:58 <fungot> AnMaster: i camp at the bar and without the repeated fnord?
11:24:25 <AnMaster> anyway if you don't filter itself it would saturate I suspect
11:24:35 <AnMaster> a bit more every time it is updated
11:25:17 <AnMaster> [IpID || {_Key, IpID} <- Entries]
11:25:53 <fizzie> Apparently the uncompressed size is not stored in the bzip2 format (unlike gzip), so can't say. I would assume it's at the very least twice that size, probably a lot more.
12:02:42 <ais523> actually, if you want to test things on the Wikipedia dumps, one well-known trick is to get Simple English not English
12:02:50 <ais523> because you can still read it, and it's smaller
12:04:45 <fizzie> 56 % already fetched out of that enwiki dump, I guess I'll just select a couple of talk pages out of it or something.
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12:21:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, You wondered why R11B wouldn't work, well I read the changelog, and to be able to follow funge spec I need to use a function added in R12B-3
12:24:42 <Slereah_> If you put a multiple of the Chaitin constant in a check.
12:24:57 <ais523> not cash it, almost certainly
12:25:23 <Slereah_> Roughly probability of the stopping of a machine
12:25:29 <ais523> AnMaster: the probability that a random Turing machine halts
12:25:40 <ais523> it's been mathematically proved to be impossible to calculate accurately
12:25:48 * oerjan thought check formatting was fairly rigid
12:25:51 <Slereah_> Well, it's between zero and one.
12:25:53 <ais523> I'm not sure how many decimal places of it are known
12:26:04 <ais523> because it is possible to get bounds on it
12:26:21 <AnMaster> <ais523> it's been mathematically proved to be impossible to calculate accurately <-- transcendental(sp?) number?
12:26:31 <ais523> it depends on how you randomize the Turing machine, but I thought there was some official method
12:26:39 <ais523> AnMaster: trancendental numbers can be calculated sometimes
12:26:49 <ais523> pi is trancendental, but can be calculated to any number of decimal places
12:27:01 <AnMaster> well you said it is known to some decimal places?
12:27:05 <ais523> whereas for Chaitin's number there's some number of decimal places past which it can't be calculated, even in theory
12:27:19 <Slereah_> You can get an estimation, AnMaster
12:27:37 <Slereah_> It's a sum of 2^p * 0 if it doesn't stop, 1 if it does
12:28:08 <Slereah_> It's a probability, so you know it will be between 0 and 1.
12:28:16 <oerjan> basically it takes a while until you get to the first Turing machine you cannot decide, and before that you have got a few dozen bits iirc
12:28:23 <Slereah_> If the first program stops, you know it's between 0.5 and 0
12:28:40 <AnMaster> 2^p * 0 well that would be (2^p) * 0, which would be 0?
12:28:52 <oerjan> oh and yeah shorter Turing machines are weighted more
12:28:57 <Slereah_> But if you can't prove anything about the first machine, you will always have an uncertainty of 0.5
12:32:20 <Slereah_> Maybe I should give out checks for floor[n*chaitin]
12:34:11 <ais523> I actually read part of Chaitin's autobiography; it seems he's a big fan of Lisp
12:34:23 <ais523> so much so that he once implemented a Diophantine equation that interpreted it
12:34:55 <ais523> restricted to nonnegative integers for each unknown
12:35:15 <ais523> so 3 / x = 2 has no solution as a Diophantine equation
12:35:26 <ais523> and "unknown" as a noun means one of the variables in an equation that you have to find the value for
12:35:34 <ais523> as opposed to a parameter, where you're given the answer in advance
12:35:53 <ais523> so if I say "solve x + 1 = y for y given that x is 3", then y's an unknown and x is a parameter
12:36:03 <AnMaster> hm... 2x=3 ..... x = 3/2 but yeah requires more than integers
12:36:21 <ais523> in general, solving Diophantine equations is super-TC
12:36:40 <ais523> because the equation itself can be TC, and a solution therefore solves the halting problem
12:37:05 <ais523> the Lisp one can easily be tweaked to implement a Turing machine by feeding it a Turing machine simulator written in Lisp
12:37:06 <AnMaster> ais523, ok. How do you make an equation TC though?
12:37:38 <ais523> AnMaster: if you give it certain input as parameters, the values the unknowns can take are a function of them which requires TC-ness to calculate
12:40:01 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_tenth_problem
12:43:30 <oerjan> from the history section it's pretty clear that it is not a simple result
12:52:35 <oerjan> "Likewise, despite much interest, the problem for equations over the rationals remains open."
12:52:52 <oerjan> so no one knows if equations with fractions are TC
12:54:19 <AnMaster> ais523, do you know if pthreads threads share their working directory?
12:59:47 <AnMaster> It is implementation-defined if each thread got it's own working directory or if
12:59:47 <AnMaster> the working directory is global for the whole implementation.
13:00:20 <fizzie> At least the POSIX specs speaks only of the "current working directory of the process".
13:00:26 <fizzie> Which would imply it's not thread-specific.
13:00:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, well in erlang it global per node
13:00:48 <AnMaster> so if you run the stuff distributed *some* threads may end up sharing directory
13:01:40 <AnMaster> assuming the nodes aren't set to use a common file server process on a single node
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13:07:27 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp
13:08:26 <fungot> oerjan: i've never been
13:08:27 <ais523> AnMaster: no I don't know about pthreads and directories, unfortunately
13:08:31 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp
13:08:57 <ais523> my guess is hi's defined to the 0-length string
13:09:09 <ais523> bf is only in that list because I defined a command called bf to try to confuse it
13:10:58 <oerjan> ^def pal bf >,[.>,]<[.<]
13:11:57 <oerjan> ^def pal bf >,[.>,]<<[.<]
13:14:05 <fizzie> Actually "hi" is an empty program.
13:14:10 <fizzie> That's why it won't show up.
13:14:26 <fizzie> Oh, you said that already.
13:14:43 <fizzie> I don't think it was actually empty, just not brainfuck so the bytecode compiler mostly ignored it.
13:15:25 <fizzie> That 'wc' program doesn't look like it should work.
13:15:30 <oerjan> ^def hi bf ,[.,]!Hello, World!
13:15:53 <fizzie> It doesn't accept preprepared input, I think.
13:15:57 <ais523> my guess is you can't specify input in defined commands
13:16:05 <ais523> hmm... maybe you should add Easy as a lang to fungot
13:16:06 <fungot> ais523: that result is reversed at the end where krishnamurthi got into a brief fnord with a normal distribtion, 95% are within 2 feet of it.
13:16:12 <ais523> despite being a joke originally, it's actually quite interesting
13:16:23 <ais523> but the input and program are in the same stream
13:16:33 <fizzie> It used to work, though. Defining 'hi' like that would've caused "^hi test" to output "Hello, World!!test".
13:16:46 <ais523> so for instance you can do ,H.,e.,l.,l.,o., .,W.,o.,r.,l.,d.
13:17:36 <oerjan> oh if the final input was added with ! ...
13:17:50 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, I think. Because it would've executed "^hi test" by turning it into the original bf command with "!test" after it.
13:20:16 * ais523 wonders why eir inbox is now called INBOX rather than Inbox since eir email problems
13:21:15 <oerjan> the email client is hard of hearing so they had to shout the name to make sure it'll pick it up
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13:28:12 <ais523> wow, my latest FRC entry hit a bug in Google
13:29:11 * oerjan wonders if there was ever an FRC spam round, and if so if all messages got through
13:30:36 <ais523> well, it's probably the first FRC round with a word that's 200 kilobytes long
13:30:40 <ais523> made entirely out of Z in this case
13:30:56 <ais523> because the full chemical name for titin was mentioned a couple of entries earlier
13:31:03 <ais523> and each entry has to set a new record for word length...
13:34:57 <oerjan> so this may be the first round that is won due to technical issues? :D
13:35:17 <oerjan> (assuming it hasn't happened already)
13:35:26 <ais523> Google relayed the message fine
13:35:31 <ais523> its web-based view also displays it fine
13:35:35 <ais523> but has a "read more" link
13:35:40 <ais523> after the end of the message
13:35:52 <ais523> clicking on it gets you a "download full message" link, also after the end of the message
13:35:56 <ais523> and in both cases, the full message is shown
13:36:06 <ais523> it seems Google can handle 200KB messages, but not 200KB words
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13:59:01 <AnMaster> ais523, odd, you only use e* for yourself instead of his in /me when it is about mail and nomic it seems
13:59:26 <ehird> what's wrong with gender-neutral pronouns
14:00:14 <AnMaster> ais523, what does that "FRC" you referred to mean? Googling for "define:FRC" lists lots of various things
14:00:16 <oklocod> a diophantine equation that runs lisp :D
14:00:20 <ais523> Agora uses "e" everywhere, when we're thinking about nomic we tend to slip into it
14:00:28 <ais523> AnMaster: Fantasy Rules Committee
14:00:39 <AnMaster> which was not one of the things google listed
14:01:44 <AnMaster> ais523, also 200 kb of Z really a valid word?
14:01:53 <ais523> they've allowed invalid words before
14:01:58 <ais523> just they have to make sense in context
14:02:10 <ais523> "Zzzz" is a common representation for sleep in English
14:02:15 <ais523> with variable numbers of Zs
14:02:22 <ais523> so I used 200,000 of them for Sleeping Beauty
14:02:41 <AnMaster> ais523, would it be invalid for someone else to use 300,000 such then?
14:03:03 <ais523> yes, but only because my rule made it invalid
14:03:42 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the full name of titin?
14:03:54 <ais523> AnMaster: about 180,000 characters long
14:04:21 <AnMaster> the link at wikipedia to a page with the full name wasn't valid
14:04:49 <ais523> Methionylthreonylthreonyl...isoleucine is how it's abbreviated on the wiki page about the longest word in English
14:05:16 <fizzie> They should abbreviate it as M189817E
14:05:30 <fizzie> In the I18N and L10N style.
14:16:20 <Deewiant> gawd, I hate those abbreviations
14:19:54 <AnMaster> abbreviation maybe? haven't checked length
14:19:57 <Deewiant> argumentation? approximation? assemblywomen?
14:20:18 <fizzie> oerjan: Antiquitarian faster-than-light?
14:20:53 <AnMaster> ehird, you didn't get the point of the joke...
14:21:07 <AnMaster> and it wasn't even my joke so hah
14:21:09 <ehird> i missed the part where it was funny.
14:21:21 <fizzie> egrep '^l.{10}n$' /usr/share/dict/words is a wonderful way of finding new meanings for it.
14:21:23 <ehird> (probably due to its nonexistance)
14:21:46 <Deewiant> fizzie: except here, where /usr/share/dict/words is swedish :-P
14:22:05 <ais523> here it's configurable
14:22:09 <ais523> so I set it to UK English
14:22:20 <AnMaster> wouldn't it be Finnish over there Deewiant?
14:22:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that's what I would have expected, that or English, but no, it's Swedish.
14:23:13 <fizzie> Here it's a symlink to /etc/dictionaries-common/words, which is a symlink to /usr/share/dict/web2.
14:23:36 <Deewiant> Well yeah, it's /usr/share/dict/words -> /etc/dictionaries-common/words -> /usr/share/dict/swedish
14:24:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, here it is just a file
14:24:32 <Deewiant> funny, american-english, british-english, and swedish, but no finnish
14:24:43 <oerjan> darn i counted wrong :D
14:25:26 <AnMaster> ais523, for that FRC, are you using /usr/share/dict/words normally?
14:25:34 * AnMaster wonders if there is any way to sort by length
14:25:48 <fizzie> I have /usr/share/dict/finnish from the wfinnish package, but it's a bit useless.
14:26:51 <fizzie> There are so many suffixes that it doesn't make much sense to try listing them all in a static word list.
14:27:04 <oerjan> <ehird> i missed the part where it was funny.
14:27:34 <oerjan> you and AnMaster are like a comical duo...
14:27:46 <ehird> i'm the funny one and he's the annoying one?
14:29:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, anyway it was Deewiant that made the joke
14:30:07 <Deewiant> it was more an explanation of my annoyance towards the abbreviations than an attempt at mirth
14:30:26 <AnMaster> hm gnu sort got an option called --random-sort, doesn't seem to be bogosort though
14:30:30 <AnMaster> -R, --random-sort sort by random hash of keys
14:30:30 <AnMaster> --random-source=FILE get random bytes from FILE (default /dev/urandom)
14:30:41 <ais523> I don't get what -R does at all
14:30:46 <ais523> hmm... maybe it sorts same lines together
14:30:47 <ehird> it shuffles the file
14:30:52 <ais523> but not in any particular order apart from that?
14:31:07 <ehird> it just shuffles the file.
14:31:32 <AnMaster> identical lines are put together though
14:31:52 <ais523> so it's taking hashes using a random but consistent algorithm, and sorting those
14:32:37 <oerjan> "hash of keys" so you don't necessarily use the whole line i guess
14:33:25 <AnMaster> -u, -r, -n, -i and -k are the only gnu sort options I use with any sort of regularity.
14:33:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, and yes, -k sets that iis
14:33:49 <AnMaster> -k, --key=POS1[,POS2] start a key at POS1, end it at POS2 (origin 1)
14:34:03 <AnMaster> a pitty you can't sort on field 3, then field 2 or such
14:34:21 <Deewiant> yeah, hence I usually write short haskell programs to do sorting :-P
14:34:30 <Deewiant> I suppose learning awk would be more optimal
14:34:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, usually I use awk yes
14:35:08 <AnMaster> well I don't know perl myself, but I heard awk and perl were pretty similar
14:35:16 <ais523> Perl is a lot more featureful
14:35:20 <ais523> and awk compiles trivially to it
14:35:31 <AnMaster> ais523, awk is easier to write though IMO
14:35:40 <ais523> Perl is easy to write once you get the swing of it
14:35:42 <fizzie> The hashing is actually MD5 in GNU sort, and the randomness comes from the fact that it starts by hashing some random data.
14:36:27 <fizzie> Well, there's that random-source option.
14:36:38 <fizzie> It reads a bit from there and MD5-processes it first.
14:37:11 <fizzie> Then it takes the MD5 hashes and sorts according to those.
14:37:15 <AnMaster> also does it use the same random value for all the lines?
14:37:18 <Deewiant> so, given, say, data with 8 whitespace-separated columns per line, how would you sort it first according to the fifth and then the second column
14:38:01 <fizzie> If I'm reading it right, no. But it uses the same random value for both keys in all pairwise comparisons, so completely identical keys will be kept together.
14:39:35 <ais523> you can do it by running sort twice
14:39:36 <AnMaster> in awk: I would probably sort it using arrays in awk
14:39:46 <ais523> sort by the second, then sort the result by the fifth
14:39:49 <ais523> because GNU sort is stable
14:39:50 <AnMaster> ais523, sort(1) may not be stable iirc.
14:40:00 <ais523> ah, I thought it was a GNU sort question, which is IIRC
14:40:03 <AnMaster> ais523, only if given --stable
14:40:15 <AnMaster> otherwise why would they have that option?
14:40:17 <AnMaster> -s, --stable stabilize sort by disabling last-resort comparison
14:40:32 <Deewiant> what if the columns don't start at the same position, doesn't sort(1) require the exact column?
14:40:35 <ais523> ah, last-resort comparison isn't always used, IIRC
14:40:41 <ais523> and it would be stable if it wasn't
14:40:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, field delimiters usually
14:40:47 <ais523> when it is you have the option to turn it off
14:40:53 <Deewiant> so, you might get "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8" but also "1234 2 3 4 5 6 7 8"
14:41:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then if the field delimiter is space that should work
14:41:15 <Deewiant> okay, what if you're given "1|2,3,4|5 6 7 8" :-P
14:41:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then you give the option to set | or whatever you want as field delimiter
14:41:48 <AnMaster> which for gnu sort seems to be -t
14:41:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the field delimiter there is | twice, , twice, and space thrice.
14:42:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then you pipe it through sed first
14:42:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and what if | or , can appear in quoted strings
14:42:33 <ais523> then maybe sort is the wrong utility to be using?
14:42:34 <AnMaster> use some other char that won't
14:42:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and what if I can't affect the output data
14:42:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: maybe @ can appear as well
14:43:02 <Deewiant> exactly, maybe sort is the wrong tool
14:43:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the reason for "maybe"
14:43:18 <AnMaster> you can select your own one there
14:43:32 <AnMaster> and of course there are cases when sort is the wrong tool
14:43:44 <AnMaster> no tool is optimal for every task
14:43:52 <ais523> Deewiant: if you're using that sort of format, it's likely some sort of CSV variant
14:43:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that isn't doable with sed, at least not easily.
14:44:03 <ais523> in which case OpenOffice would manage it just fine, except it isn't a command-line tool
14:44:14 <Deewiant> openoffice is a bit too heavyweight :-P
14:45:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why not? say you selected ! as separator, you can replace it with something else of course.... Then you do s/!/|/;s/!/,/;s/!/,/
14:45:17 <AnMaster> as long as you don't use g only the first one will be replaced
14:45:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: say I'm given "1|2,3,4|5 6 7 8" where each number can contain quoted strings containing any of " |,".
14:45:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: how do you sed the separators to something uniform so that you can turn it back later, without affecting the fields?
14:45:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well then you need a full scale parser
14:46:07 <AnMaster> which is possible in sed since it is TC, but I wouldn't recommend it
14:46:10 <Deewiant> or not really, that can be handled in regex.
14:46:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> you can select your own one there
14:46:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> that doesn't collide
14:46:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> and of course there are cases when sort is the wrong tool
14:46:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> no tool is optimal for every task
14:46:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> nor any programming language
14:46:38 <ais523> Deewiant: what if it contains email addresses, which aren't escaped, but it ignores separators inside comments in the email addresses due to knowing how to parse them?
14:47:13 <fizzie> That would be a really sensible format, ye.
14:47:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: as I said above, what if the output format is not under my control
14:47:23 <AnMaster> what if it contains a hypothetical imaginary ASCII char with the value of sqrt(-1)?
14:47:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and my whole point was to ask what method/tool people would use
14:48:26 <fizzie> If someone gave me a file like that right now, I'd probably use a bit of Python, since it's got the 'csv' module (which does quoted strings just fine) in the standard distribution. I'm sure there's a CPAN Perl module, but maybe not installed by default.
14:48:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also sometimes you can sed back as I suggested above to get the right format
14:48:35 <AnMaster> and sometimes you want another tool
14:48:38 <fizzie> Of course that wouldn't help with the unescaped email addresses.
14:48:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, like yacc + a C program
14:53:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway not sure if you saw it above, but by reading erlang news file I found that I need at least R12B-3 for efunge
14:53:54 <AnMaster> and there may be some bugs that affect in that version
14:54:42 <Deewiant> yes, I do notice when I am pinged
14:55:17 <ais523> so do I, but I'm pinged so often, it seems, that I'm beginning to grow to ignore them
14:55:53 <fizzie> I don't use it any more. :p
14:56:28 <fizzie> Although as a reference, I've got the comment "ping? pong!" there in the fungot sources where it answers a PING message.
14:56:28 <fungot> fizzie: perhaps the processor fried?
14:56:43 <fizzie> fungot: Huh? You seem to be working just fine.
14:56:43 <fungot> fizzie: i'd say another way to set some value to some specific variables and then using a foreign-lambda ( without) declaration instead.
14:56:56 <oerjan> fungot: can i have a burger with that?
14:56:56 <fungot> oerjan: in mornfall's future, that are just ' go to hell
14:57:12 <ehird> oh look, AnMaster made a joke by interpreting something as erlang
14:58:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does that mean anything?
14:58:29 <ehird> oerjan: opt-pong and opt-alt-pon
14:58:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, I'm not sure is päng ~ peng?
14:58:46 <AnMaster> maybe different spelling just?
14:59:04 <oerjan> oh so it's e in swedish too?
14:59:04 <ehird> ʼþ ʼß œ¨ʼþ´ ¯ ©øøð ´˜¸®¥,þʼø˜ ˛´¸ˍ¯˜ʼ߲≤ ʼƒ ¥ø¨ ˝ß¨þ ˙¯˜þ þø ¸ø˜ƒ¨ß´ ,ǿ,-´≥
14:59:07 <AnMaster> well not "coins", but rather the base of the word
14:59:41 <oerjan> Pengar har jag inga, men en sak til tröst
14:59:57 <AnMaster> for some reason "en peng" sounds strange...
15:00:11 <oerjan> it's "en penge" in norwegian
15:00:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: closer than expected then
15:00:31 <ehird> ̑ø≤ ¸¯˜ ¯˜¥ø˜´ ®´¯ð þˍʼß¿ ʼæ˛ ©¨´ßßʼ˜© ˜øþ≥
15:00:44 <ais523> ehird: stop pasting mojibake into the channel
15:00:59 <ehird> it's hold-down-opt-encoding.
15:01:07 <ehird> you hold down opt/alt in os x and type.
15:01:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, also it sounded like part of a poem? Since the grammar seemed strange
15:01:10 <ais523> Deewiant: Japanese written in UTF-8, but read as Latin-1
15:01:19 <ehird> ̛þæß œ¨ʼþ´ ´ƒƒ´¸þʼˇ´ ƒø® ¸ø˜ƒ¨ßʼ˜© ,ǿ,-´≥
15:01:21 <Deewiant> yes, I know, and I said it doesn't look like it :-P
15:01:23 <ehird> heh, some words are readable
15:01:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: Evert Taube's Flickan i Havanna
15:01:28 <ais523> and you're right, it doesn't look all that much like mojibake, it's hitting the wrong extended characters
15:01:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, Well he *was* Swedish, so that explains a bit I guess ;P
15:02:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, can't stand Taube really
15:02:29 <AnMaster> the music isn't good at all IMO, and the texts are worse
15:02:30 <ais523> that's why I was confused
15:02:37 <ais523> I was wondering if it was reverse mojibake or something
15:02:51 <AnMaster> ais523, åäö ? does those look correct
15:03:06 <ais523> I'm not sure what they're meant to look like, but I assume so
15:03:09 <ehird> it wasn't mojibake.
15:03:10 <AnMaster> anyway my client is set to auto detect
15:03:14 <ais523> a with a weird accent, a umlaut, o umlaut
15:03:17 <AnMaster> ais523, aao with ring, 2 dots, 2 dots
15:03:55 <AnMaster> ais523, and as wikipedia will tell you, at least in Swedish they are separate chars, not just variants of a and o
15:04:11 <AnMaster> think it is same in Norwegian except they use ø
15:05:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: yes, also the order is different
15:06:36 <ais523> anyway, as for that bug in Google I was talking about: http://groups.google.com/group/frc-play/topics
15:06:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think peng[ae]r <- penning[ae]r
15:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | :p.
15:07:15 <fizzie> The Finnish alphabet has the same "åäö" as the Swedish one, although å (the "Swedish O") is not used in any Finnish words, just names and stuff like that.
15:07:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, sounds like a weird form though, not something I would write/use. Probably oldish/poemish or something
15:07:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's an old coin unit
15:09:07 <oerjan> 1 riksdaler = 192 penningar
15:09:08 <ehird> ais523: the download link works for me
15:09:16 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_riksdaler
15:09:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, blergh, Good thing we use a more logical system since ages
15:09:52 <ais523> ehird: yes, the point is it shouldn't be there in the first place
15:10:03 <Deewiant> Yes, because base-10 is more logical than any other base. (What?)
15:10:07 <ais523> the "read more" link shouldn't be anyway
15:10:12 <ais523> it puts ... at the end of the message
15:10:25 <fizzie> Yes, but the å letter is called "the swedish O" to distinguish it from the "o" letter. I'm not sure how much sense that makes.
15:10:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well yes it is, for a simple reason... Our system is base 10 elsewhere
15:10:52 <ehird> ais523: final newline, maybe
15:11:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what system? Times are base-60 or base-24. Dates vary.
15:11:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well the Babylonians used base 60 for "counting" iirc.
15:11:29 <ais523> ehird: no, because the second message in that thread is longer
15:11:32 <AnMaster> but we have 0-9 before we get a digit in the next position
15:11:32 <ais523> and also has the read more link
15:11:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, thus I'd say we use base 10 (exception: programmers)
15:12:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, we write 15 minutes, not F minutes
15:12:34 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well yeah, we write everything in base 10. That doesn't mean it's any more /logical/ to use base 10 for other things, especially retroactively.
15:12:34 <AnMaster> thus I'd say minutes are base-10 but modulo 60
15:13:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why isn't it a good idea to change to a more logic system?
15:13:29 <ais523> AnMaster: time is base-60, but each digit is written in base 10
15:13:34 <ais523> so it's decimal-coded-segasdecimal
15:13:49 <Deewiant> What is so much more logical about 10 than about 60
15:13:59 <Deewiant> It might be the more obvious choice for humans, sure
15:14:04 <Deewiant> But it is no more or less logical
15:14:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also why did you say retroactive?
15:14:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: What do you mean, why?
15:14:55 <AnMaster> But did we change money retroactively?
15:15:06 <AnMaster> We replaced the current system with a new one
15:15:20 <AnMaster> but we didn't rewrite history to never had used the replaced system
15:16:18 <Deewiant> Hmm, I think I misunderstood myself
15:16:40 <Deewiant> Doing it retroactively is even worse :-P
15:16:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as for why base 10, I agree it isn't any more inherently logical than anything else. But for beings with 10 fingers, there is a certain logic yes
15:16:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "logic" is just the wrong word IMO.
15:16:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, got an example of it being done retroactively?
15:17:24 <AnMaster> then that is purely hypothetical, at least until ais523 implements Feather
15:18:49 <oklocod> most things in humans come in two, and the only reasonable way to count with one's fingers is to use binary
15:20:41 <ehird> oklocod: i don't think whoever thought of base-10 could have counted in binary on their fingers.
15:20:45 <ehird> or at least, e could have
15:20:45 <AnMaster> oklocod, sure, two lungs, two <whatever the English word is for "njure">... But... one heart? one brain? one stomach? One nose? One mouth?
15:20:50 <ehird> but e wouldn't have intuitively thought of it...
15:21:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, blergh yeah in English
15:21:16 <ehird> oklocod has 4.3 brains
15:21:22 <ehird> AnMaster: what is njure
15:21:23 <AnMaster> then it depends on the language of choice too
15:21:27 <Deewiant> well yeah, they're brain-halves in english as well
15:21:31 <Deewiant> but I'd say they're two brains
15:21:44 <Deewiant> in the same way that we have two lungs and not two lung-halves
15:21:46 <AnMaster> ehird, kind of related to the liver. Humans have two of them
15:22:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the lungs are more separate though.
15:22:40 <Deewiant> how so? They're less separate in that they're at least pretty much identical
15:22:44 <oklocod> AnMaster: heart does not exist for this purpose.
15:23:05 <AnMaster> well then doesn't the other ones either
15:23:29 <oklocod> if you're choosing your base based on the number of things in your body, you're probably not smart enough to see what's inside it.
15:23:41 <AnMaster> so lets see, one nose, one mouth, one torso, two arms, two legs, *ten fingers*, *ten toes*
15:24:19 <oklocod> now change the topic, base 10 rage is building up inside me
15:24:21 <AnMaster> oklocod, which is easier to count before you invented the mirror? your ears or your fingers?
15:24:37 <ais523> some cultures use base 5, IIRC
15:24:50 <AnMaster> ais523, yes makes sense for counting on one hand or so
15:24:52 <oklocod> yes sure sure base 5 and also 20
15:25:04 <AnMaster> didn't the babylonians use base 60?
15:25:09 <oklocod> and perhaps a cool 60 slipped in at some point
15:25:36 <oklocod> but they all sucked ass, binary an base -2i are the way to go
15:26:16 <AnMaster> No I suggest one of these bases: e, pi, 42
15:26:16 <ais523> oklocod: -2i? Can you express all complex integers in that?
15:26:30 <ais523> base -2 works for all decimal integers, with the digits 0 and 1
15:26:38 <AnMaster> the first two allows you to get a precise value for certain transcendental numbers
15:27:18 <Deewiant> all complex integers using only four digits and no sign
15:27:42 <GregorR> Since 'i' is discrete, base <anything>i can't represent every number.
15:27:46 <ais523> Deewiant: what digits do you need? I think either 0123 or 0 1 i 1+i would work
15:27:58 <ais523> GregorR: complex integer is what I was talking about
15:27:58 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quater-imaginary_base
15:28:03 <AnMaster> GregorR, um, what about you cancel the base out?
15:28:26 <oklocod> GregorR: duh, you can never represent every number
15:28:58 <oerjan> i resent your present representation
15:31:27 <AnMaster> I would suggest not only changing the base, but more too
15:31:56 <AnMaster> lets use base e and make use of a logarithmic scale
15:34:21 * oerjan has been fond of hyperbolic tangent scale since he discovered you could add relativistic velocities with it
15:35:42 <ais523> anyway, I got two emails about building services at the moment, and I'm not sure whether to be pleased or worried
15:35:47 <ais523> one saying that my email was working again
15:35:56 <ais523> and the other saying that they'd fixed the Door properly this time...
15:37:56 <ehird> <oklocod> GregorR: duh, you can never represent every number
15:38:06 <oerjan> ais523: well the first one was apparently not entirely wrong, i guess?
15:38:23 <ais523> but every door message seems to have caused it to have gotten worse
15:38:30 <ais523> although the time it worked for me but nobody else was amusing
15:38:42 <ais523> (although annoying due to all the time I had to spend opening it for other people)
15:38:48 <oerjan> as for the second, i eagerly await when you will start climbing in the windows...
15:39:21 <ehird> oklocod: i like representing numbers.
15:39:29 <ehird> i vant perfect computeral arithmetic!
15:39:51 <oerjan> numbers demand representation!
15:39:53 <oklocod> computerolous arithmetology
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15:40:04 -!- ais523_|direct has left (?).
15:41:11 <oerjan> hm that implies someone once said something containing "washing the windows api"
15:42:01 <ais523> it was markov-chaining
15:42:09 <ehird> ais523: no, that was pretty literal
15:42:12 <ehird> just two sentences put together
15:42:15 <ais523> so "washing the windows" and "the windows api"
15:42:21 <ais523> fizzie found the sources for us
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15:42:34 <oerjan> i thought it based the next word on the 3 previous ones?
15:42:40 <ais523> on the two previous, I think
15:43:02 <ais523> fizzie: settle this argument for us?
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15:43:20 <ehird> order-2 = 2 previous ones
15:45:01 <AnMaster> hm lower order would give more non-sensical output?
15:45:57 <AnMaster> I guess order-0 wouldn't be a markov chain any more?
15:46:36 <ehird> order-0 would be totally random
15:46:40 <ehird> it'd pick more common words more
15:46:47 <ehird> so it'd just be "here's a random common word"
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15:56:25 <fizzie> It uses 4-grams, so it has a context of three words (in most cases) to choose the following word.
15:56:50 <ais523> hmm... as oerjan said, that would imply that "washing the windows api" was actually in a message somewhere
15:57:04 <ais523> unless it reduced to 3-grams for that because it couldn't find many 4-grams?
15:57:07 <fizzie> It might've been 4-grams when it outputted that.
15:57:19 <fizzie> I've been using various model orders throughout its history.
15:58:23 <oerjan> fungot, say it isn't so
15:58:23 <fungot> oerjan: fconv merely _returned_ 0; it didn't _print_ it.
15:58:45 <fungot> oerjan: blah i was all about and i didn't have experimental selected so it was discussed very shortly, then matthew announced the decision to go in 2 bits
15:59:10 <fizzie> And yes, it will also currently use a 3-gram if it can't find *any* 4-grams that have the current three-word context as their initial 3 words. I'm not sure if that should normally happen, since the three previous words will have been generated with the same model.
15:59:29 <fizzie> No-one seems to be washing the API in my logs; just windows in general.
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17:57:19 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | how goes "interfunge"?.
17:57:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | aaah.
17:57:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I'm a programmer, not a lawyer, dangit!.
17:58:02 <oerjan> interfunge, what was that?
17:58:33 <ais523> Befunge written in INTERCAL
17:59:51 -!- olsner has joined.
18:03:29 <ehird> ais523: that was anmaster talking about ICAL actually
18:03:56 <ais523> because AnMaster likes using names thar were already taken, presumably
18:04:14 <ais523> also, ehird, do you mean IFFI?
18:04:21 <AnMaster> ICAL? That is a fingerprint that Mike Riley did
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18:42:49 <psygnisfive> did you know that theres a natural language formalism thats heavily based on types and lambdas?
18:43:17 <psygnisfive> theres even a version that depends on composition of functions, and on type raising
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18:44:19 <oklocod> well i do know now, it's fairly irrelevant whether i knew before
18:44:26 <oklocod> because you can never prove i didn't
18:44:46 <psygnisfive> its called categorial grammar. the funky version is combinatory categorial grammar
18:45:54 <psygnisfive> some verbs have the type S\NP which means that they produce an S when they merge with an NP that's on their left
18:46:32 <psygnisfive> then John runs is S, because NP S\NP produces S, as S\NP states
18:47:27 <psygnisfive> for more arguments to the verb: bites :: (S\NP)/NP
18:47:52 <oklocod> well i find the notation fairly weird
18:48:24 <psygnisfive> the notation isnt that bad actually, given that order is relevant here
18:48:36 <psygnisfive> X\Y means you get an X if you left-merge with a Y
18:48:49 <oklocod> but i only got it just after calling it weird.
18:48:51 <psygnisfive> its kind of like an abbreviation of CFG rules
18:50:44 <psygnisfive> the sequence X\Y Y\Z Z can be analyzed as X\Y (Y\Z Z)
18:51:14 <psygnisfive> or you can do composition and get X\Z = (X\Y Y\Z); X\Z Z
18:51:24 <psygnisfive> which lets you handle all sorts of crazy discontinuities
18:53:43 <psygnisfive> sorry, had to get the slides to make sure i had the notation correct
18:54:15 <oklocod> you don't have to hurry, i stared at that for about a minute before realizing it was trivial.
18:54:49 <oklocod> (more than a minute, emphasis on not the realizing but the time it took)
18:55:46 <psygnisfive> so Marcel::S/(S\NP) ran::S\NP => Marcel ran:S
18:56:09 <psygnisfive> this seems pointlessly trivial but it makes it completely trivial then to handle sentences like
18:56:16 <psygnisfive> "Marcel proved and I disprove completeness"
18:57:31 <psygnisfive> Marcel:NP proved:(S\NP)/NP and:(X\X)/X I:NP disproved:(S\NP)/NP completeness:NP
18:58:12 <psygnisfive> Marcel:S/(S\NP) proved:(S\NP)/NP and:(X\X)/X I:S/(S\NP) disproved:(S\NP)/NP completeness:NP
18:58:22 <psygnisfive> function compose Marcel with proved, and I with disproved:
18:58:55 <oklocod> haha, congrats on the pun :P
18:59:31 <psygnisfive> [Marcel proved]:S/NP and:(X\X)/X [I disproved]:S/NP completeness:NP
19:00:25 <psygnisfive> [Marcel proved]:S/NP [and I disproved]:(S/NP)\(S/NP) completeness:NP
19:00:37 <psygnisfive> [Marcel proved and I disproved]:(S/NP) completeness:NP
19:00:41 <oklocod> btw: i dropped near "ok so"
19:00:50 <psygnisfive> [Marcel proved and I disproved completeness]:S
19:01:47 <oklocod> wait a mo, i'll try to understand all this.
19:03:02 <oklocod> okay i get it to some extent.
19:03:17 <psygnisfive> its just function composition, and type raising
19:04:04 <oklocod> i don't know what function composition is in this context
19:04:14 <Asztal> so.. Marcel:S/(S\NP) proved:(S\NP)/NP --> [Marcel proved]:S/NP
19:04:23 <oklocod> why can NP become S/(S\NP)?
19:04:30 <Asztal> it's kind of intuitive
19:04:59 <oklocod> S/(S\X) is, of coutse, just X
19:05:19 <oklocod> because it's S with something on its right, that has S on its left
19:05:28 <psygnisfive> you get an S when you merge on the right with something that needs an X on the left to make an S
19:05:42 <psygnisfive> something that needs an X on its left to MAKE an S
19:06:01 <psygnisfive> f x is prefix notation for applying f to x right?
19:06:14 <psygnisfive> but why cant it be postfix notation for calling method f on x?
19:06:35 <psygnisfive> who says x is the argument and f is the function?
19:06:43 <psygnisfive> why cant x be the function and f the argument?
19:06:58 <psygnisfive> i mean, numbers can be modelled as functions right?
19:07:35 <psygnisfive> and binary functions over booleans are often modeled in LC as using the BOOLEANS as the functions, right?
19:08:45 <oklocod> i'd have booleans be a universal operation like nor, but yeah go on
19:09:17 <oklocod> so, marchel is a noun thingie
19:09:34 <oklocod> when you do Marcel:S\(S/NP)
19:10:08 <psygnisfive> type raising, but we did S/(S\NP) since marcel was the subject of the verb :p
19:10:49 <oklocod> something that takes an S on the <apply direction> to produce something that takes an S on the <other direction> to produce an NP
19:11:06 <psygnisfive> X/Y means "produce an X by taking a Y on the right
19:11:13 <oklocod> i'm refusing to believe it's not what i originally thought it is.
19:11:29 <psygnisfive> so S/(S\NP) says "produce an S by taking an S\NP on the right"
19:11:56 <oklocod> although i think these are the same concept
19:12:22 <psygnisfive> well you might be able to say that instead of this:
19:13:28 <oklocod> yes yes it's all clear now
19:13:41 <psygnisfive> you can derive whole sentences that way dude
19:14:00 <psygnisfive> without types: I believe that she ate dinner
19:14:39 <psygnisfive> with types (after some type raising): I:S/VP believe:VP/S' that:S'/S she:S/VP ate:VP/NP dinner:NP
19:14:45 <psygnisfive> well thats a nice function composition chain there
19:14:57 <psygnisfive> [I believe]:S/S' that:S'/S she:S/VP ate:VP/NP dinner:NP
19:15:04 <psygnisfive> [I believe that]:S/S she:S/VP ate:VP/NP dinner:NP
19:15:19 <psygnisfive> [I believe that she]:S/VP ate:VP/NP dinner:NP
19:15:55 <psygnisfive> and thats like, COMPLETELY opposite of how most syntactic models look at sentence structure
19:16:12 <lament> type theory for sentences?
19:16:32 <psygnisfive> also, theres a formalism for how to equate these things with their truth conditions
19:16:47 <psygnisfive> so that these applications also can produce lambdas and such
19:16:48 <lament> how is it the opposite of syntactic models?
19:17:11 <psygnisfive> the normal idea about the structure of that last sentence would be more like
19:17:45 <psygnisfive> that + [she ate dinner] -> [that she ate dinner]
19:17:55 <psygnisfive> believe + [that she ate dinner] -> [believe that she ate dinner]
19:18:15 <psygnisfive> I + [believe that she ate dinner] -> [I believe that she ate dinner]
19:18:15 <olsner> and then you also have monadic discourse models :)
19:18:31 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:19:06 <psygnisfive> give1: ((S\NP)/NP)/NP : \z\y\z[give(x,y,z)]
19:19:49 <psygnisfive> so each left or right merge applies the lambda
19:20:39 <oklocod> that might be nice in a language
19:21:03 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, also did you see that idea I had for a "HTML Query Language"?
19:21:03 <psygnisfive> english is pretty esoteric, ill have you know
19:21:36 <AnMaster> INSERT ELEMENTS head, body INTO THE ELEMENT head;
19:21:37 <oklocod> the cases were so up you could see them from china.
19:21:47 <AnMaster> lots of statements like that to create a HTML document
19:21:58 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, instead of that messy <html> stuff
19:22:37 <AnMaster> okt 19 16:10:48 <AnMaster> SELECT TEXT OF ELEMENT p WHEN ATTRIBUTE id OF ELEMENT p IS EQUAL TO TEXT VALUE "top" AND ALSO TEXT OF ELEMENT p STARTS WITH TEXT VALUE "ehird";
19:22:39 <Asztal> E4X probably does half of it :)
19:23:00 <psygnisfive> but less so than doing the same with JS, probably
19:23:13 <AnMaster> okt 19 16:22:13 <AnMaster> UPDATE TEXT OF THE FIRST ELEMENT p OF ELEMENT body OF THE ELEMENT html SETTING NEW VALUE TO TEXT "Blergh...";
19:23:16 <olsner> html already has a query language: css
19:23:20 <lament> ITS QUITE IMPORTANT THAT YOUR LANGUAGE USES ALL CAPITALS, THAT WAY PEOPLE KNOW IT'S A REAL QUERY LANGUAGE AND NOT SOME FAKE CRAP, BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS REAL QUERY LANGUAGES ALWAYS USE UPPERCASE
19:23:43 <AnMaster> okt 19 16:24:31 <oerjan> "This language is insensitive to everything, except case"
19:23:45 <Asztal> well, with E4X (a javascript extension) you can create XML literals and query them to your heart's content
19:24:00 <olsner> well, not directly, but it has an embedded query language for specifying which elements a style applies to
19:24:09 <ehird> lament: IT'S QUITE IMPORTANT THAT YOU RECOGNIZE THAT IT IS A JOKE, ALBEIT QUITE A BAD ONE
19:24:30 <psygnisfive> you should also require that it be in lolcatese
19:24:47 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, also oerjan suggested that each statement should end with ", OR ELSE!" as a opposite of INTERCAL's "PLEASE"
19:25:33 <AnMaster> okt 19 16:02:08 <AnMaster> INSERT ELEMENTS head, body INTO ELEMENT html; INSERT ELEMENT title INTO ELEMENT head OF ELEMENT html; INSERT TEXT "this is a horrible idea for markup" INTO ELEMENT title OF ELEMENT head OF ELEMENT html;
19:25:52 <AnMaster> though I later decided that the top element needs "THE"
19:26:02 <psygnisfive> I CAN PUT ELEMENTS head, body IN ELEMENT html
19:26:17 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I'm not interested in a lolcat version
19:26:46 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, it haven't been speced, so how could you fork it?
19:27:06 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, since specing this may lead to insanity
19:27:10 <oerjan> you will not be allowed to fork it! we'll make it closed source! and patent it!
19:27:38 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, just I think lolcat doesn't add anything to the joke
19:27:47 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, rather it should look more like COBOL
19:28:08 <olsner> lolcatting doesn't add much if anything to an all-caps cobolish language
19:28:10 <psygnisfive> so instead of fork::lang/lang, i typeraised your language to lang\(lang/lang)
19:28:26 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you make no sense.
19:28:37 <olsner> sense, you makes none!
19:28:40 <psygnisfive> you just didnt read anything i said about combinatory categorial grammars :P
19:28:57 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, nor do I intend to, natural languages are boring most of the time
19:29:00 <Asztal> speaking of which, how would you parse "The horse raced past the barn fell."? Backtracking?
19:29:00 * oerjan looks at oklocod sitting catatonic in the corner
19:29:08 <psygnisfive> yeah but dude this isnt just natural language
19:29:20 <psygnisfive> this is function composition and currying and type raising!
19:29:22 <olsner> psygnisfive: requiring knowledge of combinatory categorial grammars is basically equivalent to not making sense :)
19:29:53 <oerjan> <psygnisfive> olsner, we're in #esoteric <psygnisfive> be serious
19:30:00 <oerjan> i sense a cognitive dissonance
19:30:03 <lament> Asztal: i don't know much about grammar theory but intuitively that seems as complex as regexes
19:30:15 <olsner> well, true... just *being* here is making no sense
19:30:45 <olsner> oerjan: cognitive dissonance is definitely on-topic here
19:31:09 <olsner> T-something attribute grammars?
19:31:09 <psygnisfive> tree-rewriting models for natural language syntax
19:31:24 <oklocod> psygnisfive: algorithmmmmms
19:31:53 <olsner> now that I think about it, I was thinking about modelling a card game on a three-adjoining grammar at one point
19:32:13 <oklocod> i love this book, just algorithm after another
19:32:25 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol.
19:32:45 <oklopol> algorithm design, jon kleinberg & eva tardos
19:33:11 <psygnisfive> well, this, but she practically says these
19:33:19 <AnMaster> <<<<(X*2)>>||<<X>><=<<1,2,3>>>>.
19:33:30 <oklopol> can't get it over the internets afaik, so you won't do much with the name
19:33:39 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, does your stuff help you understand that?
19:34:36 <oklopol> and you cannot look at nopol, i don't publish my languages except in this channel, when they are born :P
19:34:46 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, that<AnMaster> <<<<(X*2)>>||<<X>><=<<1,2,3>>>>.
19:34:54 * oklopol will put noprob on the wiki if the interpreter ever finishes, though
19:35:08 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I bet your weird natural languages models doesn't help you in understanding that :P
19:35:14 <oklopol> psygnisfive: yeah, that's nopol
19:35:18 <oerjan> oklopol: sounds like a halting problem to me
19:35:34 <psygnisfive> so it doesnt. but that doesnt mean CCGs couldnt!
19:35:41 <oklopol> oerjan: i was afraid i might trigger a joke :P
19:35:42 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, it's actually not an esolang.
19:35:55 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, it is a functional language, and using some very weird syntax from it
19:36:46 <psygnisfive> the main difference between natlangs and complangs is that complangs generally have very shallow semantics and very clear structure, so its not hard to talk about them
19:37:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, yep, and using "bit string comprehensions"
19:37:01 <psygnisfive> the type of something in a programming language is purely a matter of value
19:37:05 <AnMaster> but removing all the usual whitespaces
19:37:15 <AnMaster> << << (X*2) >> || <<X>> <= << 1,2,3 >> >>.
19:37:20 <AnMaster> would be the normal way to write it
19:37:28 <psygnisfive> but in natural language we have lots of shit to do with not just "Value" but also with representation type
19:37:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, same concept as list comprehensions
19:37:59 <psygnisfive> because things can be represented in various ways
19:38:11 <psygnisfive> i mean, just consider what makes a noun a noun
19:38:12 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, ever heard of Feather?
19:38:33 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, well, that isn't shallow I think
19:38:36 <Asztal> a miserable little pile of semantics!
19:38:42 <AnMaster> it is retroactively non-shallow
19:38:58 <oklopol> psygnisfive: so, how about making a language that has such a complicated and exception-ridden syntax no one will ever be able to write it, it could be based on your wonky syntactic theories
19:38:59 <AnMaster> retroactive changes to the own grammar rocks
19:39:17 <psygnisfive> oklopol: ive been saying we should for months now :P
19:40:31 <oklopol> basically, we start with some simple structure, and start building incredibly complicated sublanguages, and add exception on top of exceptions until it's a total mess, after which we start cleaning it up, making it *look* simple, in short and simple programs
19:40:36 <oklopol> but the underlying semantics
19:40:55 <oklopol> i dunno, but yeah, i guess i wanna do something like that
19:41:04 <psygnisfive> we'd also have to have atleast two ways of representing the same thing
19:41:23 <oklopol> BUT, i've read 12 pages today (two exams, and i slept like 3 hours during the day), my quota is more like 80
19:41:27 <psygnisfive> similar to how you can talk about events in english using sentences, or using noun phrases
19:41:45 <oklopol> perl doesn't have a complicated grammar
19:41:56 <AnMaster> "<psygnisfive> we'd also have to have atleast two ways of representing the same thing <psygnisfive> each with its own quirks of distribution"
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19:42:23 <oklopol> well we're gonna make perl^7-2
19:42:25 <lament> there is more than two ways to do it.
19:42:41 <oklopol> yeah probably more like five
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19:43:21 <psygnisfive> yes but are they describable with type raising, function composition, and so on?
19:43:29 <psygnisfive> because thats how our language will be described
19:44:25 <psygnisfive> i say we use our language to compile down into simple predicates
19:44:27 <AnMaster> <Asztal> speaking of which, how would you parse "The horse raced past the barn fell."? Backtracking?
19:44:31 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, did you answer that?
19:44:33 <psygnisfive> and then run it on top of those predicates
19:45:09 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, just answer Asztal's question
19:46:08 <psygnisfive> i mean, well let me rephrase that since you're not really asking about formalisms i guess
19:46:22 <psygnisfive> i couldnt tell you how a PARSER would work on that, for two reasons
19:46:43 <psygnisfive> 1) the formalism im familiar with is notoriously hard to parse, supposedly, and i've never worked on a parser for it
19:47:03 <psygnisfive> 2) CCG formalisms i dont know much about, nevermind CCG parsers
19:47:13 <psygnisfive> tho i can link you to a paper on parsing with CCGs
19:48:06 * oerjan gets a barn fell to race a horse past
19:48:43 * oerjan swats psygnisfive -- er wait no
19:49:00 * oerjan clobbers psygnisfive with a hammer
19:49:33 <AnMaster> the horse raced past the barn (the barn fell)
19:49:44 <oerjan> Anyone want to buy a barn fell, cheap?
19:50:01 <psygnisfive> theres only one valid parse for that sentence, its just garden pathy
19:50:04 <AnMaster> the horse, raced past the barn, fell
19:50:19 <psygnisfive> ok ok listen guys thats not what it means :p
19:50:27 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo
19:50:29 <psygnisfive> the horse that was raced past the barn fell down
19:50:36 <psygnisfive> anmaster: i can get more buffalo than that, actually
19:51:03 <AnMaster> "The horse (that was raced past the barn) fell."
19:51:07 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_path_sentence
19:51:22 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> the horse, raced past the barn, fell
19:51:22 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> ok ok listen guys thats not what it means :p
19:51:41 <psygnisfive> commas are used for specific things in english
19:51:47 <psygnisfive> they dont denote relative clauses like in your language
19:52:07 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, why do you think they do in [my language]?
19:52:13 <psygnisfive> "the horse raced past the barn of its own accord), and then fell"
19:52:42 * oklopol remembers a horce raced past
19:52:44 <psygnisfive> i presume you're some sort of finnogermanic like half the rest of #esoteric :P
19:52:46 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, not valid, unmatched parentheses
19:53:17 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, what is that then?
19:54:09 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, My native language does not have "ü"
19:55:03 <oerjan> oklopol: what does it mean? :D
19:55:16 <oklopol> well not sure, but it has "yy", and "ä"
19:55:22 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I don't speak any of the languages you tried
19:55:36 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, So why the insult that I'm some sort of food?
19:55:59 * AnMaster gives psygnisfive a bad stomach
19:56:25 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and I just ate a lot of garlic.
19:56:36 <oerjan> is it furry curry, in a hurry?
19:57:03 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I'm from Sweden. I don't speak any of the languages you gussed
19:57:05 <psygnisfive> take a whole head of garlic and remove the papery outer crap
19:57:17 <AnMaster> and I still don't get what "finnogermanic" means when used about a person
19:57:21 <AnMaster> "<psygnisfive> i presume you're some sort of finnogermanic like half the rest of #esoteric :P"
19:57:32 <psygnisfive> step 3: coat with olive oil and sprinkle with oregano
19:57:42 <psygnisfive> step 4: bake for 45 minutes to an hour at 350 to 400 *F
19:57:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: it means you speak a language of the finnogermanic family *ducks*
19:57:57 <psygnisfive> step 5: remove, let cool till warm, then up turn and squeeze the sides
19:58:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, that still doesn't explain anything
19:58:06 <psygnisfive> Anmaster: swedish is a north germanic language
19:58:17 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, yes and? None of your guesses were correct on Swedish
19:58:19 <psygnisfive> germanic languages use commas differently than in english, usually for relative clauses
19:58:36 <psygnisfive> hence why i commented that you're finnogermanic
19:58:41 <oerjan> psygnisfive: danish uses lots of commas, norwegian not that much
19:58:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, Swedish doesn't use much I think, I guess it is relative though
19:58:57 <psygnisfive> i know in german atleast commas are relative clauses
19:59:12 <psygnisfive> the boy, that i fucked like a bitch, is named dylan
19:59:28 <psygnisfive> whereas in english thats completely invalid use of commas
19:59:30 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, No pedophiles please
19:59:50 <AnMaster> psygnisfive!*@* added to ignore list.
20:00:27 <olsner> hmm, that's probably in the grey area between pedo- and ephebophilia
20:00:31 <oklopol> oerjan: is it furry curry, in a hurry? <<< furry doesn't rhyme here
20:00:52 <AnMaster> oklopol, depends on which furry I guess
20:01:07 <ehird> AnMaster seems to have some kind of phobia of any reference to pedophillia at all
20:01:10 <olsner> actually, according to wikipedia, that's clearly pedophilia rather than ephebophilia "Ephebophilia refers to the sexual preference for adolescents around 15-19 years of age."
20:01:55 <olsner> maybe hebephilia rather than pedophilia though
20:01:58 <oerjan> exactly who was going around joking about tusho rape some while ago...
20:02:08 <oklopol> i had a 13-yo gf about a year ago
20:02:48 <olsner> let me rephrase that as "13-yo gf == tusho?"
20:02:50 <oklopol> dunno, i guess it's illegal
20:02:51 <ehird> AnMaster: you DIDN'T ignore him
20:03:11 <psygnisfive> tusho is distinctly male, despite the humor of saying he's female
20:03:13 <ehird> AnMaster: no you didn't , you just confirmed one of his statements
20:03:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I just tried to respond to olsner's questions
20:03:36 <AnMaster> <oklopol> i had a 13-yo gf about a year ago
20:03:36 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> olsner, tusho == ehird yes
20:03:48 <psygnisfive> everyone knows that when you ignore someone it doesnt get announced to the world!
20:03:58 <AnMaster> since he seemed confused I thought I'd explain it
20:04:04 <olsner> well, it does if you quote the message you got from your client
20:04:30 <AnMaster> olsner, now that made no sense heh
20:04:36 <psygnisfive> see anmaster, thats what happens when you block people
20:04:37 <olsner> that was definitely a normal message string
20:04:49 <oklopol> AnMaster: did i get ignored? wouldn't it be kinda weird to ignore someone for a joke, and not for an actual crime :\
20:05:07 <AnMaster> oklopol, I didn't ignore you oklopol
20:05:23 <oklopol> psygnisfive: yes, that was my point
20:05:28 <AnMaster> oklopol, but you were clearly joking. While psygnisfive seemed serious
20:05:29 <psygnisfive> actually he ignored me for making fun of him using a joke that he set up in the first place
20:05:29 <ehird> AnMaster very often says "please no pedophillia" or basically the same wording all the time
20:05:37 <oklopol> AnMaster: err, i was not joking
20:05:38 <ehird> AnMaster: how the fsck did he seem serious
20:05:52 <ehird> also, how on earth is /ignore the correct reaction to the rape of a child...?
20:05:53 <oklopol> while psygnisfive was clearly joking.
20:05:56 <psygnisfive> ehird: he doesnt realize that you and i havent actually consummated our love
20:06:02 <ehird> psygnisfive: quite
20:06:14 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't, but I agree with ais523's reasons too
20:06:26 <AnMaster> I refer to his reasons for ignoring psygnisfive
20:06:36 <olsner> oerjan: your mind is weak
20:06:50 <ehird> "ais523's reasons"?
20:06:55 <psygnisfive> knowing that i prefer cock in my ass than my cock in someone elses ass is TMI?
20:07:01 <psygnisfive> i mean, its implicit in the fact that im gay
20:07:09 <psygnisfive> you had BOTH possibilities in your mind before!
20:07:19 <psygnisfive> i'd say that's a reduction of information, sir
20:07:27 <oklopol> everyone knows you're a bottom
20:07:37 <oklopol> you don't talk about anything else
20:07:39 <olsner> I generally assumed gay men could be both tops and bottoms
20:07:49 <olsner> why would it be implicit that you're a bottom?
20:08:10 <psygnisfive> olsner: no i meant it was implicit that i was either a top or a bottom (or a switch)
20:08:29 <psygnisfive> so by confirming one, im not actually providing MORE information than already provided by the knowledge that im gay
20:08:38 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:08:46 <psygnisfive> therefore "TMI" is clearly illogical, because im actually ruling out, and thus removing, alternatives
20:08:58 <oklopol> that's what information is
20:08:59 <psygnisfive> so it cant be too MUCH information, since the result is that theres less!
20:08:59 <olsner> oh, so when you said you were a bottom you weren't saying that you were not a top?
20:09:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, seems like fungot crashed or such
20:09:28 <olsner> but, then you're ruling out possibilities, and thus providing information
20:09:38 <olsner> too much of which would be too much
20:09:42 <psygnisfive> yes but thats not the information he (you?) meant
20:09:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, I tried to do "^code 000f-p" to clear the ignoration counter (talking to it in a query) but for some reason it hung up. Might be some sort of a cfunge incompatibility, actually.
20:09:55 <olsner> me? he? you? I don't know!
20:10:01 <psygnisfive> namely, it was implied that the information was was too much was the idea of someones cock in my ass
20:10:04 -!- fungot has joined.
20:10:42 <olsner> ah, yes, oerjan's mention of information distracted me from the original issue
20:10:42 <psygnisfive> surely noone would care about the YES/NO of such things, in this scenario, but rather the actual content
20:10:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, well that makes no sense, g and p are simple and easy
20:10:58 <psygnisfive> but theres cock in ass in all three situations, top, bottom, or switch!
20:10:59 <oerjan> olsner: there was an original issue?
20:11:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, also did cfunge itself crash or just fungot?
20:11:12 <fungot> AnMaster: 21:01 bonjovn4 shit and stuff. have fun!
20:11:25 <olsner> well, explicit mention of "cock in ass" is usually considered TMI
20:11:27 <fizzie> AnMaster: Just fungot, of course. It might've depended on some RC/Funge UNDEF thing.
20:11:27 <fungot> fizzie: it'd take a while
20:11:40 <oerjan> psygnisfive: do you EVER refrain from quibbling whenever possible?
20:11:42 <olsner> but just the bottom/top distinction shouldn't be
20:11:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, and if you can reproduce it, rebuild with DEBUG build
20:11:54 <psygnisfive> oerjan: this is #esoteric. how could i do such a thing
20:12:10 <fizzie> AnMaster: ^code is implemented by appending "0R" to the input, sticking it into some place of fungespace, loading SUBR and executing a C there.
20:12:25 <oerjan> psygnisfive: you ruin half my jokes by explaining them...
20:12:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't think of any reason that would crash
20:12:56 <oerjan> (ok maybe TMI wasn't _entirely_ a joke)
20:12:58 <olsner> well, implicit is still implicit... and bottom/top could very well have referred to submissive/dominant personality traits rather than sexual practice
20:12:58 <fizzie> I'll try it with some tracing.
20:13:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, could you give a trace of what 1) happens 2) you think should happen instead along with 3) a 4 page description of why ;)
20:13:43 <psygnisfive> now granted, they tend to go together quite frequently
20:13:54 <psygnisfive> but in straight BDSM its quite common to have femdom
20:14:03 <psygnisfive> which is almost always a case of a bottom dom
20:14:09 <ehird> psygnisfive: This is quite irrelevant for #esoteric.
20:14:10 <psygnisfive> unless the woman has a strapon or something
20:14:12 -!- ais523 has left (?).
20:14:15 <ehird> Move it to #psygnisfives-sexual-ramblings or something.
20:14:30 <olsner> yes, let's abort this while we still can :)
20:14:35 <AnMaster> ehird, you finally agree with me?
20:14:46 <ehird> AnMaster: No. psygnisfive: I can blame it on your continuous rambling.
20:14:53 <olsner> interesting to hear about the finer distinctions though
20:14:55 <ehird> About utterly irrelevant stuff that nobody here cares about.
20:15:01 <ehird> olsner: There's always /msg.
20:15:08 <psygnisfive> true, but we wouldn't've gotten here if anmaster hadn't turned us into a tangent
20:15:36 <olsner> the tangent, while tangential, was still #esoteric's tangent
20:15:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait SUBR may be relative storage offset differently than for RC/Funge. that is all I can think of
20:15:40 <psygnisfive> i merely used a sentence as an example, but no, he had to go and act like i was talking
20:15:56 <psygnisfive> anmaster doesnt know about use/reference distinctions i think :(
20:15:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, I remember having to mess with that because Deewiant thought it should have been and so on
20:16:40 * oklopol cares about weird sex stuff
20:16:45 <psygnisfive> who asked me about parsing the garden path sentence?
20:16:52 <ehird> psygnisfive: I still don't understand why AnMaster ignored you for one sentence that was clearly a joke.
20:17:12 <oklopol> indeed, and wouldn't do it to me for a *non* joke
20:17:28 <psygnisfive> oklopol, how were you dating a 13 year old
20:17:29 * oklopol doesn't like being called a liar
20:17:32 <ehird> oklopol: pedophillia is OK if you don't talk about sex, duh. Now. On to more interesting things
20:17:47 <Deewiant> yes, having sex is fine as long as you don't talk about it
20:17:49 <psygnisfive> asztal: you asked about the parsing right?
20:17:50 <oklopol> ehird: that's better than "you're clearly joking"
20:18:12 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, the real menace is referencing having sex with underaged peopple.
20:18:20 <psygnisfive> ok. well, i can only comment about minimalism and parsing
20:18:20 <fizzie> AnMaster: It seems to jump to the right place, execute "000f-p" just fine, but then it hits a 0 and reflects. Seems I've tried to use "A" to append, except that after loading SUBR the A instruction is SUBR's "set absolute mode".
20:18:32 <psygnisfive> namely, movement based syntax seems hard to parse, but there might be some ways
20:18:48 <fizzie> AnMaster: So now I just wonder why it used to work. Are A/O new things?
20:18:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes it is, the fingerprint was ret-conned by Deewiant and Mike Riley
20:19:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, it would have worked a few weeks back
20:19:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, blame Deewiant for breaking existing apps, which is what I warned would happen
20:19:32 <AnMaster> I take no responsibility for that
20:19:39 <Asztal> psygnisfive: I'm also curious what happens if the word order is free (e.g. Hungarian, sort of)
20:19:45 <ehird> AnMaster: OMG FIZZIE WILL HAVE TO CHANGE A PROGRAM A LITTLE BIT! HOW DARE THEY IMPROVE THINGS
20:19:45 <fizzie> Oh well, the fix is trivial.
20:19:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, see!? I predicted that would happen.
20:20:04 <psygnisfive> minimalist approaches take such things to be something called scrambling
20:20:07 <ehird> Deewiant: betting he has me on ignore
20:20:15 <psygnisfive> which is a fancy way of saying "shit aint in the order we expect it to be! :("
20:20:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, versioned fingerprints. And what ehird said is irrelevant
20:20:43 <ehird> versioned - mm i love the smell of useless bloat in the morning
20:20:44 <ehird> it smells like failure.
20:20:50 <ehird> and what i said is very relevant
20:21:25 <psygnisfive> free word order is generally taken to be the result of movement
20:21:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, And never change existing, unless you reserve instruction/other value for a parameter for future use
20:21:57 <AnMaster> or just make a new fingerprint
20:24:57 -!- ehird_ has joined.
20:24:58 <ehird> AnMaster: stop bullshitting
20:25:00 -!- ehird__ has joined.
20:25:05 <ehird> as fizzie said - the change was trivial
20:25:11 <ehird> and it improves the fingerprint
20:25:16 <ehird> what you suggest only adds to bloat for no real gain
20:25:17 <AnMaster> huh, why so many clients of yours?
20:25:42 <AnMaster> I still hold the same opinion.
20:25:54 <ehird_> It'd be nice if you offered a real justification, but I know better than that.
20:26:40 <AnMaster> ehird_, for a simple reason: Not breaking existing code.
20:27:39 <AnMaster> Why do you think the C standard committee avoids breaking changes when possible? Why do you think old functions in both the POSIX standard and on Windows remains?
20:27:53 <AnMaster> And they make new ones if the old ones can't be upgraded easily
20:27:59 <ehird_> AnMaster: BECAUSE THAT IS C
20:28:10 <AnMaster> ehird, same goes for many other languages.
20:28:10 <ehird_> C IS USED FUCKING. EVERYWHERE. MISSION CRITICAL SYSTEMS DEPEND ON IT.
20:28:17 <ehird_> BEFUNGE IS A FUCKING ESOLANG
20:28:24 <ehird_> IN A _FUCKING IRC BOT_
20:28:43 <ehird_> yes, there is, because you have a continual and constant failure of basic logic and reasonability
20:29:17 <AnMaster> And well why do you think there are no mission critical systems in Befunge? Apart from it being a language where programs are hard to maintain, slow and so on?
20:29:35 <ehird_> AnMaster: maybe because it's an esolang that is slow, whose programs are hard to maintain?
20:29:39 <ehird_> maybe because it's AN ESOLANG
20:29:46 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but apart from that :)
20:29:54 <ehird_> ha ha ha you're making a joke to justify your idiocy
20:29:57 <ehird_> very funny, but it's not valid
20:30:35 <AnMaster> and I still stand by my point, breaking changes lead to bitrot
20:30:47 <AnMaster> in a language hard to maintain this is even worse
20:31:11 <Deewiant> I never questioned that; I just said that such programs would be written by people in this channel. fizzie hasn't disproved that yet.
20:31:15 <ehird_> AnMaster: To follow in the vein of your beaurocracy, please compile a list of programs that have been broken by the change, and your assesment of how hard it will be to fix them.
20:31:24 <ehird_> Once you can, then I will concede.
20:31:37 <ehird_> If you cannot, then I will continue to call your logic retarded andy our point invalid.
20:33:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not omniscient, I can't know everything, if I were, such a change would be trivial, since I would be able to tell all affected.
20:33:37 <ehird_> AnMaster: Occams razor dictates that the change is fine.
20:34:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't see how you mean.
20:34:37 <ehird_> AnMaster: Considering your failure at logic I am not surprised.
20:34:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also well what about other places? Not everyone is here, for example Mike Riley often isn't
20:35:06 <AnMaster> ehird, well I do know what Occams razor is, I don't see what it has to do with breaking changes
20:35:18 <AnMaster> ehird, so unless you can justify that?
20:35:42 <ehird_> AnMaster: Generally trivial logic that a 3-year-old could understand does not need justification. Your warped sense of reality, however, does.
20:35:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and has he written a program broken by this change? Perhaps, but he was of course aware of the change. :-P
20:35:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, but that shows there may be other ones
20:36:11 <Deewiant> my point was that there likely aren't
20:36:16 <AnMaster> ehird, well then you don't seem to have anything valid to add, if you refuse to explain yourself
20:37:01 <ehird_> AnMaster: Trivial, undeniable, simple logic does not need justification. Your fucked-up justifications that turn out to actually be illogical do.
20:37:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm still waiting for your justification. I have given my reasons.
20:37:36 <ehird_> AnMaster: I have adequately explained why only an idiot would need justification of a basic application of Occam's Razor.
20:37:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm still waiting for your justification. I have given my reasons.
20:37:42 <ehird_> Do you want me to treat you as an idiot? I can if you want.
20:38:04 <AnMaster> It can still break programs. It can be hard to debug.
20:38:13 <AnMaster> Befunge programs are notorious for that.
20:38:19 <ehird_> Please read up. Thanks.
20:39:37 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'm waiting for justification. Yes you prefer the simple solution. But I argue breaking existing programs that complies to the then published specs is not valid
20:39:50 <ehird_> There. Is. Nothing. To. Justify.
20:39:53 <AnMaster> why do you think there is Funge-98 and Befunge-93?
20:40:04 <AnMaster> Why not just rewrite "Befunge" as it was then known
20:40:17 <ehird_> Jesus christ you are an idiot. Now I have to put you on /ignore in all of 3 clients.
20:52:20 <oerjan> fungot: at least _you_ are reasonable, right?
20:52:21 <fungot> oerjan: how's the scheme workshop of 2002, if i'm having connection issues, how would you answer ' which would be exactly that.
20:52:36 <oerjan> fungot: i'm sorry, i wasn't there
20:52:36 <fungot> oerjan: the cygwin page does say programs need to work much better.) originally developed by miller puckette and company at fnord.
20:53:54 <Deewiant> fungot: the guys at fnord made cygwin?!
20:53:54 <fungot> Deewiant: that's using generators. for streams see srfi-40 or http://xmog.com/ scrap/ show/ fnord
20:54:15 <Deewiant> fungot: xmog.com doesn't look like cygwin
20:54:15 <fungot> Deewiant: a lisp in php
20:54:31 <fungot> Deewiant: is there a special compiler i'll need, or to print to the channel
20:55:04 <Deewiant> fungot: for that lisp in PHP? Probably yes
20:55:05 <fungot> Deewiant: making your code `portable' only by virtue of the discussion flatt changed some of my init.el" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 274
20:55:44 <fizzie> fungot: You're quite the lisper these days.
20:55:45 <fungot> fizzie: don't encourage him. it was created
20:55:58 <fizzie> fungot: Sounds suspiciously religious.
20:55:58 <fungot> fizzie: i can't make out what you mean
20:56:09 <Deewiant> fungot: that's some ugly lisp there
20:56:09 <fungot> Deewiant: painful i/ o
20:56:33 <fungot> oerjan: it's the cryptogram type puzzle fairly quickly
20:56:56 <Deewiant> fungot: Quite accurate, actually!
20:56:56 <fungot> Deewiant: i don't really care about the finer points of old crotch blended highland scotch whiskey.
20:57:01 <oerjan> fungot: oh come on it's not _that_ weird
20:57:01 <fungot> oerjan: it's very awesome
20:57:28 <oerjan> something psygnisfive would like, i'm sure
20:57:44 <Deewiant> fungot: so wait, you don't care about the /finer points/?
20:57:45 <fungot> Deewiant: if you can turn this into
20:58:10 <fizzie> fungot just wants to get drunk, he doesn't care about the finer points of the crotch-blended whsikey.
20:58:10 <fungot> fizzie: it has the same illness as i do
20:58:26 <Deewiant> fungot: I did not need to know that.
20:58:27 <fungot> Deewiant: but printing ')'
20:58:32 <fizzie> Not everything is all right with that bot.
20:58:45 <oerjan> fizzie: mispleing whiskey is a bad omen
20:59:01 <Deewiant> Drinking alcohol blended with old crotches and then getting illnesses from it? No, everything is certainly not right.
20:59:24 <oerjan> Deewiant: now now, remember strong alcohol is a disinfectant. i think.
20:59:37 <Deewiant> oerjan: not if you get illnesses from it it isn't :-P
21:00:00 <fizzie> fungot: Do you think you'd feel better after a rewrite?
21:00:01 <fungot> fizzie: are/ were any problems with hard disk space on a measly 40 gb drive.
21:00:36 <fizzie> fungot: Actually you only have a ~20 GB drive, but don't worry, only the language models take up much space.
21:00:36 <fungot> fizzie: too slow to perform the o(n) resize once every n inserts
21:01:33 <oerjan> fungot: are you doing something fizzie doesn't know about?
21:01:33 <fungot> oerjan: egobot does not flood.
21:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | let __ = __ in __ :: t.
21:07:55 <oerjan> ye olde infinite loope
21:08:28 <oerjan> (actually probably trapped)
21:09:02 <oerjan> ghc traps simple infinite loops
21:09:25 <oerjan> those that reevaluate the exact same expression
21:10:35 <fizzie> SWI-Prolog has an amusing easter egg if you ask it a query like "X." but I've probably mentioned it on this very channel already.
21:10:46 <oklopol> i realized the other day it's actually quite trivial to notice you're reevaluating something, after you do it once, you're in a cycle, and it's enough to store one state in the cycle, and check if it appears again
21:10:56 <oklopol> it reappears iff there's a loop
21:11:37 <fizzie> The cycle might start later than that one state you've stored.
21:11:48 <oklopol> yes, but it's enough to change the stored state every now and then
21:11:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, I believe you were saying you would have used ATHR and so on?
21:12:02 <fizzie> Then you might not notice the cycle if it's long enough.
21:12:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/YpkaJU36.html may interest you
21:12:16 <oklopol> that's actually quite true
21:13:46 <psygnisfive> i think my formalism might be equivalent to CCGs
21:13:50 <fizzie> If I have free time and the inclination to do a fungot rewrite, I might consider some form of ATHR-style threading.
21:13:51 <fungot> fizzie: it's only the html pages are served up using lighttpd, and the
21:14:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, be aware of that efunge is slower than even rc/funge
21:14:29 <AnMaster> it is more for "interest feature ideas" than "raw performance"
21:15:09 <fizzie> Well, the IRC thing isn't really very speed-critical. If something's too slow to implement on the Brainfuck interp, I can do it as a "native" command.
21:15:11 <AnMaster> and cfunge will never have all those weird fingerprints. Just the more tame ones.
21:15:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, also SOCK hm, I will probably do my NSCK idea (which fixed lots of issues with SOCK/SCKE)
21:15:57 <AnMaster> maybe SOCK too, but it was kind of messy to implement
21:18:35 <fizzie> Well, we'll see. I may start simply by cleaning up the existing code a bit. And I still lack the good editor.
21:32:58 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...
21:35:18 <lament> banananananananananonokokokokokokokokokokoko
21:36:42 <oklopol> numbers N for which doing N<o>N for any <o> a hyper operator is the identity function?
21:37:00 <oklopol> not identity, but all produce the same result
21:37:44 <oerjan> what is a hyper operator?
21:38:10 <oerjan> oh you mean the ones i said
21:38:25 <oklopol> 2+2, 2*2, 2^2, 2\/-2, 2&"2, ...
21:39:22 <oklopol> also 0^0 isn't usually defined afaik
21:39:28 <fizzie> Our high-school mathematics teacher used to say 0^0 is mickey mouse with one ear missing.
21:39:46 <fizzie> (Meaning: not very defined.)
21:39:51 <pikhq> 0^^(0^0), on the other hand...
21:39:56 <oerjan> no but i vaguely recall discussions that said 1 is the most reasonable value
21:41:17 <fizzie> A feasibool is like a bool value, but it can only take values that are (semantically speaking) feasible.
21:41:52 <fizzie> According to p. 408 of Knuth (1992), [0^0] "has to be 1".
21:42:17 <fizzie> Well, if Knuth says so, who am I to argue.
21:42:36 <fizzie> It's the "appeal to authority" method of proof.
21:43:07 <ehird> lol - <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. At 19:30 UTC, in two hours, we'd like to ask everyone to observe a minute of silence in sympathy with the victims of the terrorist attacks on September 11, their loved ones and friends. Channel admins, if you'd like to participate, please +m your channel for a minute and optionally deop at that time. Thanks.
21:43:19 <fizzie> Or is it "Proof by eminent authority"? The example is given as: "I saw Karp in the elevator and he said it was probably NP-complete."
21:44:11 <ehird> fizzie: proof by knuth
21:44:24 <fizzie> Oh, it has a separate category.
21:45:30 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karp%27s_21_NP-complete_problems
21:45:59 <fizzie> That page was in my browser cache.
21:46:33 <oerjan> mine too i assume, since i saw it yesterday
21:51:16 <psygnisfive> i found the perfect outlet for my computery languageu urges!
21:59:31 <olsner> computational linguistics? has an IRC channel?
22:00:03 <fizzie> Probably a support group after that mean xkcd strip.
22:01:27 <GregorR> I've also found an outlet for my computer language-y urges.
22:01:31 <GregorR> Programming language research.
22:07:23 <olsner> also known as bantering in #esoteric? :P
22:07:59 <psygnisfive> i mean language-y in the natural language sens,e gregorr :P
22:09:22 <oklopol> olsner: no he's moved on to the real world now
22:09:44 <olsner> oh, real world... how boring :)
22:09:45 <ehird> <psygnisfive> i found the perfect outlet for my computery languageu urges!
22:10:29 <olsner> 'computery' = kindergarten 'computational'
22:10:45 <oklopol> computationalative languagation
22:11:45 <GregorR> Computationalaxative lenguanation
22:14:12 <oerjan> de linguis non est computandum
22:14:45 <oklopol> computationalativatiosivecious
22:16:03 <oklopol> you can put any number of suffices on an english root, and it'll be pretty and cute.
22:16:45 <psygnisfive> i'd put my suffix on your root, if you know what i mean
22:17:34 <oklopol> you have too ciouses and ives too
22:17:57 <oklopol> ARE YOU PLAGIARIZING MY FAILURE
22:18:22 <GregorR> I'll put my suffix on YOUR root.
22:18:40 <oklopol> i'll put my root on your *mother*'s suffix
22:19:13 <oklopol> ...err do gays have mothers, actually?
22:19:32 <GregorR> They sprout from rocks and/or eggs.
22:19:53 <psygnisfive> hence our affinity for metal and metal-related things
22:20:49 <oklopol> GregorR: we all know you gods hate fags
22:21:05 <GregorR> oklopol: Hey I swapped my personality back.
22:21:15 <psygnisfive> unless its on a guy, in which case its powers of rash are reduced significantly
22:22:06 <GregorR> No, it reverts automatically after a timeout.
22:22:11 <oklopol> this is why all the gayness has been bottled up tonight, we were scared of you
22:22:36 <oklopol> i should get back to reading
22:22:39 <oerjan> does that mean we can cancel the protest against you?
22:23:05 <oklopol> it's just the book is excruciatingly hard to read :P
22:23:11 <GregorR> http://codu.org/pics/other/pec2.jpg
22:24:12 <oklopol> psygnisfive: still the same book
22:24:32 <psygnisfive> now maybe add a long shadow-reflect with the same angle as the shadow-reflect of your right leg
22:25:09 <oklopol> algorithm design by eva tardos and jon kleinberg
22:25:32 <oklopol> read the first 600 pages for a course, but need to read the rest for another one
22:25:44 <oklopol> and the last few hundred pages are complete mindfuck
22:25:46 <psygnisfive> im going to read some lecture notes (essentially a book) from an MIT math-for-CS class
22:25:54 <psygnisfive> so its all discrete math and combinatorics and stuff
22:25:59 <oerjan> she never wrote another book, since that would be retarded
22:26:10 <oklopol> (and no one dl this somewhere and tell me it's simple or i will slap you with my trout)
22:26:42 <oklopol> i just have it in book form
22:26:48 <oklopol> and i managed to destroy even that
22:26:55 <oklopol> by soaking it in water for about a day
22:27:14 <oerjan> oklopol: you have a trout?
22:27:20 <oklopol> i get about 200e a month, 78.6 euros for a book, and i destroy it in a week :)
22:27:38 <psygnisfive> yeah but you live with your parents, oklopol
22:27:42 <oklopol> that's how i use the remaining 121.4e
22:28:02 * oklopol is gay and lives with his parents
22:28:20 <psygnisfive> how can you be gay, you have a girlfriend, dont be silly
22:28:31 <oklopol> i doubt i've lived with my parents during the time you've known me
22:28:55 <olsner> you've both been here longer than that haven't you?
22:29:06 <psygnisfive> i dont know if ive been here since february
22:29:13 <olsner> but you *did* live with your parents! hah!
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22:30:07 <oklopol> but my parents live in this city, i do get moneys from them if i need
22:30:26 <oklopol> i don't, though, 200 is enough for my needs
22:30:32 <psygnisfive> they killed people by forming queues at convenience stores at 3am
22:31:02 <olsner> or a queue being de-queued
22:31:04 <oerjan> yay! now i can sharpen my razors
22:32:23 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_power
22:32:25 <psygnisfive> have i mentioned that i despise those people?
22:32:50 <fizzie> Added back that missing echochohoo.
22:33:15 <oerjan> psygnisfive: i thought you liked balls with nuts
22:34:07 * oerjan thought the nuts were the things inside the balls
22:34:26 <fizzie> Put the nuts in the pyramid, you'll get them sharpened.
22:34:40 <olsner> wait, what, no, the nuts *are* the balls
22:34:43 <psygnisfive> http://web.mac.com/arnold_zwicky/BizarroErrors.gif lulz
22:36:02 <olsner> that's a quite severe invasion of privacy there, psygnisfive
22:36:20 <olsner> no knuffeling allowed without permission
22:37:40 <olsner> only -ish? then you can't be exhausted!
22:37:52 <olsner> you'd have to settle for very tired, IMO
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03:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ;).
03:14:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | there's so much room for experimental error there.
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05:00:08 <immibis> anyone know how to set the storage offset in funge 93?
05:01:19 <immibis> "In Funge-98, each IP has an additional vector property called the storage offset. Initially this vector is the set to the origin. As such, it works to emulate Befunge-93. The arguments to g and p are the same, but instead of pointing to absolute locations in Funge-Space, they reference a cell relative to the storage offset. "
05:01:50 <lament> befunge-93 does not have a storage offset
05:02:06 <lament> so as long as the offset is 0 in funge-98, it works just like befunge-93
05:07:38 <Asztal> { can set it, but not to an arbitrary value
05:09:20 <Asztal> (there was also a dynamic fingerprint spec from Jeffrey Lee that allowed setting the haunted IP's storage offset, but I don't think that spec is implemented)
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06:41:33 <fizzie> 0{<y><x>02-u0} sets the storage offset.
06:42:47 <fizzie> Uh, with a $$ afterwards to get rid of the actual storage offset.
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12:51:37 <optbot> oklocod: really? It looks nice?
12:51:47 <oklocod> that's why i like you, optbot
12:52:04 <oklocod> well yes, it's pretty tiny
12:52:09 <oklocod> but it's not all about the size, oklocod
12:52:12 <optbot> oklocod: I like your new website, but the articles are all missing. I remember reading about ESO OS, and now...?
12:52:29 <oklocod> optbot: you must be confusing me with someone else
12:52:30 <optbot> oklocod: Get all the latest offers on chocolate bar accessories!
12:54:48 <optbot> GregorR: And besides...
12:54:56 <optbot> GregorR: I don't think I should really include the VARG() variations
12:55:08 <GregorR> optbot: You have no intelligence at all, do you?
12:55:09 <optbot> GregorR: i don't think it's bread
13:01:15 <fizzie> optbot: Your HEAD is full of BREAD.
13:01:16 <optbot> fizzie: (I'd really like to pick up keigo a bit, though. . . That looks interesting, moderately difficult, yet worthwhile)
13:08:45 <oklocod> GregorR: language design job where what tell all that is not secret
13:09:04 <oklocod> hope that made as much sense it was intended to make.
13:09:39 <GregorR> If it was intended to make no sense whatsoever, then it did.
13:09:55 <oklocod> you're a professional language designer nowadays, huh?
13:10:14 <GregorR> No, I'm a grad student, but that does mean that I'm paid to do language research, yeah.
13:11:00 <oklocod> will you tell more details
13:11:16 <oklocod> like, what are you researching, or just something general you can't put it into words
13:11:45 <GregorR> Oh. Well, I'm a first year first semester, so whatever I fall into, but right now I'm working on a team designing an extensible language
13:12:36 <oklocod> that may be enough to silence my curiosity for now
13:13:13 <GregorR> Well, it's a joint research project with IBM so I may not be able to say more.
13:15:09 <oklocod> it's just i liked plof :-P
13:15:32 <oklocod> by that i meant, i'm interested in what you cook up.
13:15:55 <GregorR> Well, I'm sure I'll be in here bragging about any publications, but that probably won't happen 'til next year or so :P
13:17:15 <oklocod> btw, if ibm's involved, i'm pretty sure you'd know if you weren't allowed to say anything
13:17:43 <oklocod> and by that i don't mean "come on, tell me more", just general wonderingnessment.
13:18:31 <oklocod> i mean, google made me swear not to tell even though i'm basically just clicking "spam/not spam" buttons for them.
13:59:26 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol.
14:28:21 <optbot> oklopol: Strangely the "%d" gets replaced by nothing whatsoever.
14:28:27 <psygnisfive> someone recently started a thread on that "why did you bring that book ..." sentence up
14:29:01 <oklopol> that wasn't me, and i haven't seen tha
14:29:12 <oklopol> but i've been randomly browsing zbb
14:29:35 <psygnisfive> ill tell you how i think movement parsing should go, just not now
15:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | h or H - say "Hello World".
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16:41:45 <AnMaster> hm idea for another fingerprint: Fungespace Query Language
16:42:23 <GregorR> Slereah_: Why is your ident "jewbutt"?
16:42:55 <AnMaster> also I got a good idea for how to *represent* semaphores in ATHR
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16:43:58 <AnMaster> since it uses a library-metaphor for mutexes, just making the library have several copies of the same book in stock
16:44:07 <AnMaster> however implementing this would be complex for me
16:44:27 <AnMaster> in fact I need to write my own lock server then, and that would need to handle distributed stuff
16:44:59 <AnMaster> oh another problem: Funge-Space bounds updates
16:49:06 * ehird thinks about natural language parsing
16:49:46 <ehird> i'm sure i could parse "the karma of the person who said 'indeed'"
16:49:50 <ehird> AnMaster: fungespace
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16:49:59 <ehird> "karma of person who said 'indeed'"
16:50:04 <ehird> -> "karma of (person said "indeed")"
16:50:25 <ehird> -> select ?person, ?karma where { ?person :said "indeed" . ?person :karma ?karma . }
16:50:28 <ehird> surely i could parse that,
16:50:28 <asiekierka> But i planned to make a Taxi-like languagwe
16:50:54 <ehird> karma of (person said "indeed")
16:50:54 <asiekierka> basically, there's a set of buses running different trails (which you set at the beginning of the program), max buses amount is 10.
16:51:07 <ehird> v1 = person said "indeed"
16:51:10 <ehird> v2 = karma of person
16:51:14 <asiekierka> And you can set commands to a different bus, but you can't move something from one bus to another, you must use a standing point
16:51:14 <oklopol> ehird: why is "person" the referent in (person said "indeed"), and not, say, "indeed"?
16:51:19 <ehird> ?person said "indeed"
16:51:39 <ehird> select ?person, ?karma where { ?person :said "indeed" . ?person :karma ?karma . }
16:51:43 <ehird> oklopol: because "indeed" is a quoted string.
16:51:54 <AnMaster> asiekierka, Fungespace Query Language
16:52:05 <ehird> oklopol: well, what do you mean
16:52:14 <ehird> asiekierka: Trying to parse restricted English into SPARQL.
16:52:18 <oklopol> the person said "indeed", which is a funny word
16:52:29 <oklopol> (person said "indeed") is a funny word
16:52:38 <AnMaster> ehird, hm did I miss something had you on ignore still there
16:52:48 <oklopol> but here, "indeed" is the referent
16:52:50 <ehird> oklopol: the karma of the person who said "indeed"
16:53:00 <ehird> oklopol: phrase it in the other interpretation, i'll tell you how it parses down
16:53:24 <oklopol> phrase what in the other interpretation
16:53:36 <ehird> oklopol: the "karma of indeed" thing
16:53:39 <asiekierka> I wonder whether should i make an ircREGbotXY
16:53:43 <ehird> phrase it in the full english
16:53:47 <ehird> the karma of the person who said "indeD"
16:53:49 <AnMaster> "X > 2 & X < 5 & (Y > 5 | Y < 3)"
16:53:53 <AnMaster> 0"X > 2 & X < 5 & (Y > 5 | Y < 3)"S
16:54:03 <AnMaster> though it would actually be reversed
16:54:06 <oklopol> the karma of the "indeed" said by a person
16:54:41 <ehird> oklopol: -> karma of ("indeed" said by person)
16:55:18 <oklopol> ehird: so the *position* inside the parens was what made "person" the referent
16:55:20 <AnMaster> 0"(& (> X 2) (< X 5) (| (> Y 5) (< Y 3)))"S
16:55:26 <ehird> oklopol: uhh, yeah...
16:55:43 <oklopol> nevertheless, i have no idea what you're talking about :P
16:56:09 <ehird> oklopol: i'm trying to make it so that you'll be able to:
16:56:14 <ehird> botte, what is the karma of the person who said "indeed"?
16:56:19 <ehird> and it'll reply like
16:56:26 <ehird> <botte> person=ehird, karma=-454
16:56:30 <ehird> <botte> person=oklopol, karma=3478234234
16:56:30 <AnMaster> 0"(& (> X 2) (< X 5) (| (> Y 5) (< Y 3)))"S to return a list of (top of stack first) Count,X,Y,Value,X,Y,Value
16:56:36 <ehird> <botte> person=botte, karma=STACK OVERFLOW
16:56:45 <AnMaster> so total cell count 3 * Count + 1 (for count itself)
16:56:50 <ehird> oklopol: "said", here, refers to a complete line, actually
16:57:03 <AnMaster> ah wait, that wouldn't work for more than trefunge
16:57:09 <ehird> asiekierka: So low it overflow. :P
16:57:26 <oklopol> what is the karma of the person for whom it's true that e happened to say "indeed" at some point
16:57:31 <asiekierka> So low it overflows, for the good of water flows.
16:57:46 <asiekierka> Uh... That didn't make any sense, but it RHYMES!
16:59:10 <asiekierka> Except if we modify either regular expressions or add a command.
16:59:22 <ehird> <oklopol> what is the karma of the person for whom it's true that e happened to say "indeed" at some point
16:59:27 <ehird> at this point botte says "go fuck yourself".
17:00:42 <oklopol> my INTERNET IS NOT working :<
17:00:50 <ehird> oklopol: you could just say "what's the karma of the person who said 'indeed'"
17:01:20 <asiekierka> RWLR -> RLWR... Read Left, Write Right... hmm...
17:02:30 <asiekierka> An useless language. ^ - input a char, put it in the current cell, and move left. If you're at 0, move to the end of the cell memory. AND v - Write the current cell, and move right. If you're at the end of the cell memory, move to 0. THIS IS USELESS!!!
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17:03:30 <oklopol> asiekierka: yeah sounds pretty useless
17:03:30 <ehird> oklopol: here is my current stoopid parser thingy
17:03:31 <ehird> ('the ?', lambda x: x),
17:03:31 <ehird> ('? of ?', lambda x, y: Of(x, y)),
17:04:59 <oklopol> ehird: "? of ?" is pretty useful :P
17:05:05 <ehird> oklopol: whaddya mean :-p
17:05:11 <AnMaster> ehird, hm what happened to ais523? Got any idea why the bouncer isn't connected?
17:05:31 <ehird> AnMaster: FOR FUCKS SAKE AIS523 IS NOT YOUR PERSONAL IRC-BUDDY
17:05:37 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp oko cho choo
17:05:38 <ehird> IF THE BOUNCER ISN'T CONNECTED THAT'S BECAUSE HE'S DOING SOMETHING ELSE, OKAY?
17:05:49 <ehird> oklopol: what about it
17:05:50 <AnMaster> ehird, when did I claim he was?
17:05:52 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[>[.>]<[<]>]
17:05:54 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
17:05:55 <fungot> >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
17:06:06 <ehird> AnMaster: When you implied that ais523 doing something than being on irc is a total anomaly.
17:06:25 <ehird> oklopol: 'a of b and c of d' would be:
17:06:32 <AnMaster> ehird, usually the bouncer is still connected. But that wasn't the case
17:06:39 <ehird> oklopol: And(Of(a,b), Of(c,d))
17:06:48 <asiekierka> ^ctcp rocks ... I SEE NEW COMMANDS WERE ADDED.
17:06:50 <oklopol> ehird: and why exactly would it be that?
17:06:51 <ehird> AnMaster: because he /parted here when psygnisfive was talking about sex.
17:06:53 <fungot> olololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololo ...
17:06:55 <ehird> oklopol: why wouldn't it be?
17:07:00 <fungot> siekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierkasiekierka ...
17:07:28 <oklopol> ehird: because it could just as well be
17:07:36 <ehird> oklopol: could just as well be what
17:07:55 <ehird> oklopol: that's why there's precedence
17:08:02 <fizzie> Oh, I added cho and choo (they used to be called echochohoo and echo_cho_ho_o) back today.
17:08:26 <ehird> oklopol: stuff higher up the parser list gets chosen first.
17:08:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm ATHR will have issues for y, basically the bounds will be async updated.
17:09:08 <oklopol> "higher up the parser list"
17:09:12 <oklopol> i don't know what that means
17:09:14 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, I personally don't really care much what 'y' says.
17:09:16 <ehird> ('the ?', lambda x: x),
17:09:22 <ehird> stuff coming first gets changed first.
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17:09:52 <asiekierka> there's a space between _ and $ though
17:10:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, well issue is that you have to select at command line if you want ATHR support, there is no way to not make this utterly slow or async, And since async when ATHR isn't loaded would mess up with mycology... Well.
17:10:45 <ehird> AnMaster: s/well issue/the issue/
17:11:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I got an idea for semaphores: The library may have more than one copy of some books in stock.
17:11:34 <ehird> AnMaster: s/got/have/
17:11:57 <oklopol> actually that could be a literal "got"
17:11:57 <asiekierka> It has control flow by... walls. Somehow
17:12:08 <oklopol> say you got the idea yesterday or something
17:12:30 <AnMaster> asiekierka, a 2D language where the IP reflects according to the law of physics?
17:12:47 <AnMaster> you need some way to make it have a non-trivial speed, direction and so on
17:12:50 <ehird> oklopol: 'i thought of an idea'
17:13:08 <oklopol> "befunge on reals", does that sound enough like "ruby on rails" to be a pun?
17:13:21 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and all cells it intersects with on the way... Well those it will execute the instruction in
17:13:35 <AnMaster> even if that isn't what you thought it is a nice idea
17:14:11 <asiekierka> DOBELA - DOt-Based Esoteric LAnguage, a proposed name
17:14:13 <oklopol> ehird: "got" is fine, your mother and your face
17:14:20 <AnMaster> asiekierka, oh naming something cat is a bad idea, since that is the tool used dump files to the terminal on *nix. Like type in cmd.exe (if you use windows)
17:14:41 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> A cat program looks like:
17:14:48 <ehird> AnMaster: ... idiot
17:14:56 <ehird> he implemented cat in that language
17:15:14 <asiekierka> The example in rafb is a oversized version of "cat", just to show all of it's features :)
17:15:16 <oklopol> AnMaster: pretty common esolang terminology
17:15:35 <oklopol> i knew what a cat program was before knowing the util
17:15:50 <asiekierka> And dots rotate when HITTING a wall, of course.
17:15:58 <asiekierka> And my language calls bits "dots". Huh, weird.
17:16:08 <asiekierka> Though they do look like dots, but that's another problem
17:16:11 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I think you need mirrors
17:16:33 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well "90 degrees" hm :/
17:16:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what if dots collide?
17:17:06 <asiekierka> Uh... Well, thanks for telling me that, i think they start moving in a reverse direction
17:17:27 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I think 0 and 1 colliding should destroy each other
17:17:34 <AnMaster> like the particle and the anti-particle
17:17:46 <AnMaster> asiekierka, 1 and 1 or 0 and 0 I'm not sure about
17:18:03 <AnMaster> so maybe you want to follow electromagnetic rules?
17:18:12 <AnMaster> so 1 and 1 attach to each other creating a wall?
17:18:32 <asiekierka> 0 and 1 colliding will destroy each other
17:18:33 <AnMaster> 0 and 0 would also create a wall that way
17:18:46 <AnMaster> asiekierka, no doesn't work if they destroy each other
17:19:17 <AnMaster> asiekierka, no I think the wall should be between those cells :D
17:19:53 <asiekierka> Because it'll be like: , . | , . OR , . | ,.
17:20:18 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also those the wall need a charge. So if you have a 2x0 and it it with an 1 you get a 0 particle going in the opposite direction of the 1
17:21:32 <asiekierka> So if they collide . . it's created inbetween
17:21:35 <AnMaster> asiekierka, not in either cell, just between
17:22:17 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you are using integer coordinates?
17:22:45 <AnMaster> ok anyway this made me get an idea for another language
17:22:56 <AnMaster> basically your instruction pointer is a photon
17:23:17 <AnMaster> it will bounce on all walls as if they were mirrors
17:23:40 <AnMaster> the space is filled with some instructions
17:23:52 <AnMaster> so each instruction that it illuminates,,, is executed
17:24:12 <AnMaster> it will allow non-trivial angles for bouncing
17:24:23 <AnMaster> so it needs a proper intersection test
17:24:31 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what do you think of this idea?
17:24:50 <asiekierka> but i didn't have physics at school YET
17:25:12 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/GKrMDk84.html - DOBILA (sorry for the misspell) docs v.2
17:25:17 <AnMaster> asiekierka, the input angle to the normal is the same as the output angle, except at the opposite side
17:25:54 <asiekierka> So i added an instruction, EXCEPTIONS and the uncommented example
17:26:05 <asiekierka> To see how it'd look like in a normal text file
17:26:13 <asiekierka> Oh, and any other chars are ignored, treated like space.
17:26:28 <AnMaster> asiekierka, there is an alignment error in your paste
17:27:00 <AnMaster> "$ - Takes up dots. When it gets 8 of dots, it outputs chars based on them, in FIFO."
17:27:08 <AnMaster> this implies each $ is separate
17:27:22 <AnMaster> but then the example isn't cat
17:27:38 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also in the commented example you got a timing issue
17:27:48 <AnMaster> the 1 and 0 wouldn't reach their $ at the same time
17:27:55 <AnMaster> since the path is longer for 1
17:29:14 <asiekierka> The only example i wouldn't "explain", and leave it for the interpreters, is that how _ outputs dots
17:29:23 <AnMaster> asiekierka, another idea: have = accelerate the dots to double its current speed if particle enter horizontally, and have it decelerate to half the speed if the dots enter vertically
17:29:51 <AnMaster> asiekierka, how do you do flow control?
17:30:03 <AnMaster> asiekierka, since that is trivially non-turing complete
17:30:27 <AnMaster> well you need 1) flow control and 2) storage I think
17:30:48 <AnMaster> asiekierka, how can you store one in a "variable" to retrieve it later?
17:31:05 <asiekierka> I could make a command to retrieve a dot from the FIFO
17:31:18 <AnMaster> wouldn't help as the fifo is limited in size
17:31:53 <AnMaster> asiekierka, anyway all you can do with # is to sort dots.
17:32:55 <AnMaster> asiekierka, ideas that may help: 1) something to flip a 0 to a 1 and vice versa. 2) have some sort of wall that when it is hit from one direction changes the way 0 and 1 reflects (for left/right)
17:33:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also for .. note they only destroy each other if traveling in opposite directions
17:33:58 <AnMaster> or you can't have two directly after each other traveling same way
17:34:03 <AnMaster> or one traveling up and the other down
17:34:26 <asiekierka> And i'm removing "_". Its behavior was too confusing.
17:34:32 <AnMaster> you could get input really fast
17:36:01 <AnMaster> asiekierka, anyway you need something so that one 1 or 0 can affect another one, like | if hit from above then it will make everything that hits it horizontally go down, if it is hit from below it will everything that hits it horizontally go up
17:36:18 <AnMaster> to allow a loop that you could retrieve data from
17:37:41 <asiekierka> to be transported to the other transporter
17:37:49 <asiekierka> Otherwise, it's ignored, except if \ hit from south
17:38:08 <AnMaster> well, I leave it up to you to make it TC :)
17:38:23 <AnMaster> asiekierka, the | I suggested would be able to create a loop
17:39:18 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I think infinite space could work for that
17:39:28 <AnMaster> assuming the infinite space wraps around
17:40:09 <AnMaster> but anyway, you could use a group of walls to create a storage loop for tos
17:40:37 <asiekierka> When ^ is hit west or east - behavior left!
17:40:45 <AnMaster> asiekierka, How would you generate a dot?
17:41:13 <asiekierka> I also have an idea how to make ^ more useful
17:41:30 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also you removed _ but it is still in the example
17:42:27 <AnMaster> asiekierka, anyway two dots that are next to each other shouldn't cause a collision unless their paths are intersecting
17:42:52 <AnMaster> asiekierka, as for "The infinite space wraps around." I don't think that actually works
17:43:01 <AnMaster> it wouldn't be implementable for dots for a start
17:43:29 <asiekierka> ^ can stop/start the ones/zeros generators
17:43:42 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you only need one of ; and :
17:43:49 <AnMaster> since you could use = to convert them
17:44:12 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also does = make the dots pass through it ?
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17:44:55 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/ApA5d942.html - so you can catch on
17:45:15 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well I'm far from sure if that is tc or not any longer at least
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17:45:31 <AnMaster> I bet ais523 could help you better
17:47:08 <asiekierka> also, in |, i meant Dots, when hitting | north/south, are destroyed.
17:47:47 <AnMaster> The least point and greatest point as reported by y may also be asynchronously
17:47:47 <AnMaster> updated. This may be true even if no threads have been created. If that is the
17:47:47 <AnMaster> case, the implementation should offer a command line option for supporting ATHR
17:47:47 <AnMaster> (async updates), and a sync update mode (using ATHR results in undefined
17:48:02 <AnMaster> that is the only way I can resolve that issue in
17:48:49 <ais523> asiekierka: how do you plan to do infinite storage?
17:49:03 <ais523> as far as I can see, the FIFO holds infinite data
17:49:07 <ais523> but there's no way to find out what it is
17:49:10 <ais523> apart from telling the user
17:49:34 <asiekierka> you can't output from the FIFO without I/O... yet
17:50:11 <AnMaster> everything else worked fine so far, but this is really a blocker for me, how to update bounds for funge space so it works for other stuff.
17:50:34 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm currently trying to process demands from 5 people at once
17:50:39 <ais523> and catch up on about 120 emails
17:50:46 <AnMaster> async works fine, but will change stuff even if ATHR isn't loaded
17:51:41 <ais523> AnMaster: least and greatest point on y is a very non-Befungy thing for me
17:51:49 <ais523> to me, Fungespace is conceptually infinite
17:51:57 <AnMaster> ais523, yet they are in the core spec, mycology tests it.
17:52:09 <ais523> the fact that practically it's finite and dynamically updated is not really relevant
17:52:21 <Deewiant> ais523: it's so that you can use o to dump the non-empty part of funge-space
17:52:22 <ais523> even the Funge-98 spec says that space needn't be dynamically updated, although it usually is
17:52:45 <asiekierka> in ZERO/ONE dots, i meant rotates instead of moves
17:53:24 <ais523> asiekierka: my answer now is probably, but I'd have to give it more thought
17:53:31 <ais523> it seems reasonable that you could use the FIFO as a Minsky machine
17:53:45 <ais523> and use a different part of your playfield as a finite-state machine to control it
17:53:55 <ais523> but I'd have to implement it to be sure
17:54:15 <asiekierka> But i don't know programming THIS WELL to make one
17:55:02 <asiekierka> Newscaster: IMPORTANT NEWS! Asiekierka died from a heart attack after reading that he codes his interpreter, but he doesn't know dynamic programming! Causer yet unknown.
17:55:17 <asiekierka> I don't know dynamic variables very well
17:55:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still I assume you think async updated bounds in y is a bad thing when ATHR isn't loaded?
17:55:36 <asiekierka> Each dot holding an X/Y register, and the rotation counter
17:55:55 <AnMaster> actually it is a bad thing anyway... hm
17:55:56 <asiekierka> With the generators, it could possibly PWN your memory.
17:56:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, yeah, of course. Something giving wrong results unpredictably is generally not a good thing :-P
17:56:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, apart from bounds everything worked well so far
17:56:49 * AnMaster needs to consider bounds some more
17:56:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so you've been lucky :-P
17:57:09 <Deewiant> unless you can prove it never happens, your program is incorrect
17:57:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well pretty well, usual amount of typo bugs and such of course.
17:57:22 <AnMaster> anyway I could make it sync and slower
17:59:09 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and you want either a hash array or a tree structure
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17:59:48 <AnMaster> and of course : could fill memory
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18:00:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, some sort of compare and exchange would work for bounds, except that is non-trivial in erlang
18:00:34 <AnMaster> asiekierka: <AnMaster> asiekierka, and you want either a hash array or a tree structure <AnMaster> and of course : could fill memory
18:00:40 <AnMaster> : filling memory is a user fault
18:00:58 <AnMaster> You'd want some way to discard bits if you don't already have it
18:01:00 <asiekierka> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/DOBELA - Working on the Wiki thread
18:01:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and you want to rate limit : to every other cell
18:01:32 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what if you want to destroy without outputting to fifo?
18:02:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ais523: Another idea I had for another fingerprint: Fungespace Query Language
18:03:40 <AnMaster> "(& (> $1 2) (< $1 5) (| (> $2 5) (< $2 3)))" Using $1 and $2 instead of x/y for reasons for n-funge for n > 3
18:04:02 <AnMaster> also the value v would mean "value of cell is"
18:04:43 <AnMaster> return a list of (top of stack first) Count,X,Y,...,Value,X,Y,...,Value
18:04:51 <AnMaster> where ... are any more dimensions needed
18:05:07 <AnMaster> Count,...Y,X,Value,...Y,X,Value
18:07:35 <AnMaster> Hm, I wonder how insanely slow using a full blown database for fungespace would be
18:09:09 <asiekierka> What are the categories DOBELA could be assigned to?
18:10:27 <asiekierka> Stack-based, Unknown computational class, Two-dimensional languages, Unimplemented...
18:11:32 <asiekierka> Queue-based, Unknown computational class, Two-dimensional languages, Unimplemented
18:11:45 <ais523> it's queue-based and 2D
18:12:17 <AnMaster> asiekierka, nor does RUBE does it?
18:12:23 <ais523> AnMaster: cellular automata don't have FIFOs
18:13:01 <ais523> yes, Category:Languages
18:13:18 <asiekierka> Since i made it... uh... today, right?
18:13:54 <asiekierka> I think i should make a hello world, but it's... Too easy!
18:14:15 <AnMaster> ais523, I had an idea for another language, it could be 2D or 3D and would use a particle, say a photon or something else, that bounced on the perfect mirror walls, and either you would need to trace it's path, seeing what instructions in the room it intersected with to find out what instructions were executed
18:14:17 <asiekierka> By default, they move... east, or south?
18:14:25 <AnMaster> ais523, flow control by flippable mirrors
18:14:31 <ais523> AnMaster: seen BackFlip?
18:14:41 <AnMaster> ais523, it will allow non-trivial paths
18:15:00 <AnMaster> ais523, also you would have to consider refraction index of the materials
18:15:10 <asiekierka> Also, as generators make dots that move east
18:15:19 <AnMaster> ais523, however the photon wouldn't be absorbed
18:15:44 <asiekierka> Because it's meand to be useful, actually
18:16:00 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you think of this idea?
18:16:02 <asiekierka> That's how you make a Hello, World in my language
18:16:18 <ais523> AnMaster: relatively interesting
18:16:24 <ais523> I'm kind of distracted atm, though
18:16:27 <AnMaster> ais523, it could also be made to have several photons, and have lamps and such
18:16:31 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523|busy.
18:16:58 <AnMaster> however asiekierka didn't seem to find it interesting at all, which is odd
18:18:12 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, further I think instructions should be possible to place at non-integer coordinates, same for walls, flippable mirrors and such
18:18:44 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, yes, but that uses different parts of physics
18:18:50 <AnMaster> I'm unsure how to actually handle the infinite memory
18:19:18 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, since I want this photon language to be TC
18:21:02 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, I think declaring everything as some sort of list of tuples, or maybe in S-Expressions are the only sane way
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18:22:27 <asiekierka> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/DOBELA
18:22:52 <AnMaster> (additem-direction Type X Y Z DirX DirY DirZ)
18:23:14 <AnMaster> (additem-volume Type minX minY minZ maxX maxY maxZ)
18:23:21 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, maybe something like that?
18:23:28 <AnMaster> and possible extra parameters in some other way
18:24:21 <AnMaster> probably just specific (lamp '(x y z) '(x y z) '(r b g) intensity)
18:24:32 <AnMaster> probably in photons per second or such
18:25:03 <AnMaster> asiekierka, patterns would be like regex ones I suspect
18:25:34 <oklopol> asiekierka: computation cannot add new dots
18:25:53 <oklopol> you will just have the dots you had initially, or less.
18:26:03 <oklopol> you need to add some breeding rules
18:26:06 <asiekierka> and switch whether you do it and you don't
18:26:14 <AnMaster> : - Generates ones east by default.
18:26:18 <asiekierka> And you can also use = or switch whenever it's zero or one
18:26:29 <AnMaster> oklopol, generate one dots to the east
18:26:55 <AnMaster> I said it should have a rate of every other turn
18:27:09 <AnMaster> asiekierka, since .. is defined as #
18:27:11 <oklopol> this whole things is fully static
18:27:17 <oklopol> i cannot see any computation
18:27:24 <asiekierka> :. then : . then :. . then : . . then :. . .
18:27:28 <oklopol> there's no changing the environment
18:27:36 <AnMaster> oklopol, ais523 suggested it may be possible to simulate minsky in it
18:27:39 <oklopol> there's just a few dots going in circles
18:28:13 <AnMaster> right you fixed that then ais523|busy
18:28:13 <asiekierka> I think that may mean it is self-modifying
18:28:14 <ais523|busy> if it isn't TC, it's due to lack of working flow control
18:28:48 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, If I make Photon I need your help I bet working out what is needed
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18:29:27 <oklopol> | has a state which can be changed by hitting it from a certain direction?
18:29:38 <asiekierka> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/DOBELA
18:29:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, I suggested that one as a way to be able to redirect
18:30:41 <AnMaster> asiekierka, 1) implement a interpreter for it 2) implement a TC complete language in it
18:30:42 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:31:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, anyway what did you think of my Photon language?
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18:31:38 <AnMaster> asiekierka, 1) implement a interpreter for it 2) implement a TC complete language in it
18:31:56 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well that is your own problem
18:32:05 <AnMaster> you can't expect someone else to do it for you
18:32:37 <AnMaster> like befunge and this Photon language idea I had
18:33:35 <ehird> asiekierka: are you unable to code?
18:33:55 <asiekierka> i just don't know enough programming to do it
18:34:39 <ehird> So, you are unable to code.
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18:42:17 <AnMaster> ehird, how would you represent the angle of an object in a 3D space. Say a lamp with a position (x, y, z) but what should be used for the angle it is pointing towards?
18:42:44 <ehird> In degrees or radians or something.
18:43:03 <AnMaster> polar coordinates or something sounds familiar
18:43:32 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh? I'm sorry but my 3D maths are kind of rusty (ie, never existed) :(
18:43:50 <oklopol> a vector that points to where ever the object is headed
18:44:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, would that be same as normalised vector?
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18:44:31 <AnMaster> just trying to refresh memory there, since that sounds familiar
18:45:28 <oklopol> normalization is just making the length 1
18:45:53 <oklopol> in any-dimensional vectors
18:47:18 <AnMaster> for rate of lamps that emit single photons and have a perfect exit direction (no spread)
18:47:21 <AnMaster> -- Parameters Coordinates, Direction, Wavelength, nanoseconds between each photon
18:47:21 <AnMaster> (lamp '(x y z) '(x y z) wavelength time)
18:47:41 <ehird> AnMaster: um, make your parameters self-describing
18:47:52 <ehird> coords direction wave-length (not sure for the last one)
18:47:55 <AnMaster> ehird, that was just an example, would have numbers there
18:48:30 <AnMaster> it is either that or some sort of tuples
18:49:02 <AnMaster> numbers are either integers or double (at least)
18:49:20 <AnMaster> ehird, so either scheme-ish S-Expressions
18:49:55 <AnMaster> ehird, you add objects, flow control by mirrors that flip when photons hit them
18:50:21 <AnMaster> refraction index should be correctly handled for objects too
18:50:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I think this language could be fairly interesting, and ais523|busy said as much above
18:52:20 <oklopol> can you go over the elements that do the actual computation?
18:52:26 <oklopol> something about flippable mirrors
18:52:36 <oklopol> i think i heard something like that
18:52:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, well flipped by photons
18:52:58 <AnMaster> oklopol, and yes I plan to break the laws of physics if I have to to make it tc
18:53:02 <AnMaster> because the plan is to make it tc
18:53:07 <AnMaster> far from all the details are worked out
18:53:10 <oklopol> a photon hits a certain kind of mirror, and it will rotate?
18:53:32 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, well I think this one should be computable if you do ray-tracing
18:53:34 <oklopol> okay, that sounds like computation, but it also sounds unprogrammable
18:53:59 <AnMaster> oklopol, you mean to act on photons?
18:54:33 <AnMaster> since that would make it a LOT harder to implement, if not even unimplementable
18:54:45 <oklopol> yes not to mention it would be pointless
18:55:07 <Deewiant> gravity should act on the objects but not the photons ;-P
18:55:20 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, anyway I plan to make it tc and possible to implement, even if messily hard to program in and messily hard to implement
18:55:26 <oklopol> AnMaster: no real reason, just my gut talking
18:55:31 <Deewiant> the photons will catch up until the program's been running so long they're moving at light speed
18:55:47 <AnMaster> "The photons travel at the speed of light (for the given material). Since this
18:55:47 <AnMaster> is too fast to be able to simulate in real time for current computers running
18:55:47 <AnMaster> the simulation at a slower speed is allowed."
18:55:52 <AnMaster> from the draft I'm *trying to write*
18:56:01 <ais523|busy> I wonder if it will be easier or harder to implement than Feather
18:56:35 <ais523|busy> anyway, I think I've figured out how to prevent Feather going into an infinite loop (as opposed to arbitrary loop) when it parses the parser with itself
18:56:55 <ais523|busy> make the parser property of an object be the parser it was parsed with
18:57:11 <ehird> ais523|busy: uh, just make it parse the parser with the previous parser
18:57:15 <ais523|busy> basically, it's a loop that runs a finite number of times
18:57:16 <ehird> then parse the parser with the current parser
18:57:20 <ehird> until oldparser == newparser
18:57:27 <ehird> (i.e. reparse until the parsing stabalizes)
18:57:29 <AnMaster> anyway, lamps (single photons at a given rate, with possibly a max count), surfaces (perfect mirrors or perfect absorbers), flippable mirrors, and volumes (transparent, with a given refraction index)
18:57:30 <ais523|busy> but you can retroactively change how many times it ran
18:57:51 <ais523|busy> thus it's effectively an infinite loop that runs in finite time, if you ever find that it didn't run far enough you change your mind about how far it ran
18:58:00 <ais523|busy> ehird: oldparser will never == newparser, probably
18:58:28 <ehird> ais523|busy: i doubt it
18:58:32 <ehird> ais523|busy: if you just add some new syntax, but don't use it in the parser, then it'll work immediately
18:58:44 <ehird> if you make it parse a certain construct differently
18:58:49 <ehird> but include a backwards compatibility clause
18:58:52 <ehird> it'll immediately stabalize
18:58:56 <ehird> then remove the backwards-compat clause
18:59:00 <ehird> and since its running on the new parser, it'll work.
18:59:51 <ais523|busy> ehird: how do you compare functions for equality, again?
19:00:06 <ehird> you compare the parsetree.
19:00:28 <ais523|busy> it's a function which maps strings to functions
19:00:39 <ehird> ais523|busy: well, just do a dumb compare then
19:00:41 <ehird> for exact equality
19:01:19 <ehird> i want to add a mega super syntax to the parser
19:01:25 <ehird> i add it, but i also use it in the parser at the same time
19:01:35 <ehird> i write the expanded form in a guard checkign for the old parser version
19:01:45 <ehird> so it runs, uses the expanded form, runs it again, oh, now it uses the non-expanded shortcut
19:01:50 <ehird> and then next time its stable
19:01:54 <ehird> so then you can remove the backwards-compat guard
19:01:59 <ehird> and it'll work immediately
19:03:29 <oklopol> i've been there occasionally
19:03:59 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, Deewiant, oklopol: http://rafb.net/p/jap3S630.html
19:04:09 <AnMaster> comments and suggestions please
19:04:51 <AnMaster> I probably want some form of stdout too, but possibly no stdin
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19:06:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Make the format something like this:
19:06:56 <ehird> [ lamp location: (X,Y,Z) direction: (X,Y,Z) wavelength: Foo time: Foo count: Foo ]
19:06:58 <AnMaster> (also there shouldn't be a , after time in the s-expression example, that was a typo
19:07:12 <AnMaster> ehird, that is hard to parse, ideally I want something prefix based
19:07:25 <ais523|busy> lamp(vector(X,Y,Z),direction(X,Y,Z),Foo,Foo,Foo)
19:07:25 <ehird> ais523|busy: Kind of a blend of lisp/smalltalk/n3/prolog.
19:07:27 <oklopol> THERE IS A THING CALLED LAMP
19:07:32 <oklopol> IT HAS THIS THING CALLED LOCATION
19:07:32 <ehird> AnMaster: That is not hard to parse.
19:07:38 <oklopol> WHICH IS AS FOLLOWS: (x, y, z)
19:07:39 <ehird> first node is the type of thing
19:07:42 <ehird> the rest of KEY: VALUE
19:07:52 <ehird> it's just s-expressions with labels.
19:08:07 <AnMaster> ehird, so lets make that proper
19:08:17 <ais523|busy> ehird: Prolog is sexp too, but it uses comma not space and the first element is outside the parens
19:08:21 <oklopol> heh, was scared for a sec there
19:08:29 <oklopol> thought it was asiekierka suggesting the prolog
19:08:43 <ehird> ais523|busy: Hi. I know prolog.
19:09:04 <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird, so lets make that proper
19:09:07 <AnMaster> ehird, (lamp (list (list location (list X Y Z))
19:09:18 <ehird> AnMaster: no, because that is pig ugly and pointless
19:09:28 <AnMaster> ehird, so is your format IMO :)
19:09:34 <ehird> [<type> <key>: <value> <key>: <value>]
19:09:39 <ehird> Simple. Readable. Easily indentable
19:09:59 <ehird> direction: (X,Y,Z)
19:10:48 <AnMaster> ehird, you could just shut up instead?
19:10:57 <AnMaster> or you could contribute to the language
19:11:09 <ehird> Or I could talk about things unrelated to that language in #esoteric.
19:11:09 <AnMaster> or you could just ignore me I guess and go on talking format
19:11:27 <AnMaster> what other objects are needed to make it tc
19:11:27 <ehird> Well, if I wanted to help you with your language before I certainly don't know.
19:11:52 <AnMaster> ehird, well as I said, lets just leave format till later? ok?
19:12:28 <ehird> You're implying that I want an indepth discussion about it as opposed to merely glancing at it and having one opinion.
19:12:31 <AnMaster> I have no intention to offend you, nor anyone else.
19:13:02 <ehird> What are you even talking about?
19:13:25 <AnMaster> ehird, you seemed offended at that I wanted to leave file format for later?
19:16:40 * ais523|busy wonders about what punctuation and capitalisation for hello world programs is most important
19:17:14 <ehird> grammatically correct, elegant, etc
19:17:20 <ais523|busy> and "Hello World!" is the other one I see from time to time
19:17:24 <AnMaster> ehird, the , there seems odd to me
19:17:35 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it's valid
19:17:46 <AnMaster> well what does it mean exactly there
19:17:51 <ais523|busy> AnMaster: when talking to someone, often you put their name at the end of the sentence, with a comma
19:18:09 <ais523|busy> if I met ehird in RL, the English equivalent would be
19:18:31 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, you could start with the name too in English, couldn't you?
19:18:32 <ehird> ais523|busy: Addressing me as ehird IRL would be a bit weird.
19:18:34 <ehird> Especially as it's not easy to pronounce.
19:19:28 <AnMaster> Possible yes, not that easy though
19:19:58 <ehird> ais523|busy: "Elliott" is quicker to say than "ehird", actually.
19:19:59 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, xwrt is even shorter, is it easier?
19:20:39 <ais523|busy> ehird: ehird is just pronounced as "e heard", or that's how I pronounce it mentally
19:21:03 <ais523|busy> maybe I've got good at it from thinking it so often
19:21:07 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, saying a lone "e" isn't all that easy
19:21:25 <ehird> ais523|busy: i generally don't think your name as it takes ages to pronounce
19:21:32 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, not in front of h
19:21:35 <ais523|busy> heh, I think it even though it takes ages to pronounce
19:21:37 <ehird> IRL I'd probably word sentences to avoid mentioning a name at all.
19:21:58 <ehird> ^^ POLITICALLY RELEVANT JOKE ^^
19:22:08 <ais523|busy> heh, ais523 takes even longer to pronounce then AnMaster
19:22:22 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, my nick isn't meant to pronounce
19:22:38 <oklopol> i'm called oklopol irl too
19:22:42 <ais523|busy> but I've grown to like it for all sorts of purposes
19:22:48 <ais523|busy> oklopol: are you called oklofok and oklocod too?
19:22:49 <ehird> Whatever do you mean, ay eye ess five two three pipe busy?
19:22:51 <oklopol> also with my irl name of course
19:22:57 <oklopol> and also occasionally veli lasol
19:23:07 <ehird> oklopol: how do you pronounce oklopol, "ock lo pohl"?
19:23:18 <ais523|busy> AnMaster: I think it's faster to pronounce than ais523, but harder
19:23:32 <AnMaster> ais523|busy, I think it is impossible
19:23:39 <ais523|busy> ehird: I pronounce it like that but with a short o at the end
19:23:40 <ehird> AnMaster: not hard
19:23:41 <oklopol> finnish is pronounced as it's written, characters are pronounced as in lojban
19:23:57 <ais523|busy> oklôpol, where the accent indicates a long vowel
19:24:11 <oklopol> ah well "poll" is how it's pronounced
19:24:19 <ehird> oklopol: depends how you pronounce poll
19:24:23 <ehird> oklopol: just record the pronounciation
19:24:24 <oklopol> except the "p" is not aspirated
19:24:42 <AnMaster> I could pronounce oklopol easily
19:25:03 <oklopol> "b" is a non-aspirated, voiced "p", in english
19:25:17 <ehird> oklopol: record a pronounciation
19:25:20 <ais523|busy> so it's a case of consonants differing slightly between languages
19:25:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, it is *easy* to pronounce "oklopol" in Swedish
19:25:30 <AnMaster> probably not what you want though
19:25:39 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, but you may pronounce it wrong, as "o" can also be "u"
19:25:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, ah I wouldn't do it like that
19:25:58 <oklopol> yeah then it's probably correct
19:28:58 <oklopol> ais523|busy: also the emphasis is on OKlopol
19:29:03 * ais523|busy tries to think up other ways to pronounce oklopol
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19:31:08 -!- ais523|busy has changed nick to ais523.
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19:32:35 <ais523> an argument about how to pronounce "oklopol"
19:32:46 <ais523> and AnMaster starting off a new lang
19:32:54 <asiekierka> Can anyone please think whether DOBELA is TC
19:33:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm preparing another draft
19:33:51 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you call a cube based on a non-square rectangle in English?
19:34:11 <AnMaster> not all sides need to be the same
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19:34:43 <ais523> if you mean a shape made from 6 rectangles
19:34:44 <fizzie> Also called "rectangular prism".
19:35:22 <ais523> if you have 6 parallelograms, so it's tilted, you get a parallelepiped
19:35:30 <ais523> which isn't a very commonly used word, but it's great fun to say
19:36:52 <AnMaster> ais523, should I give refraction index or speed of light?
19:37:06 <ais523> probably refraction index
19:37:10 <fizzie> Heh: "As of 2005, no example of a perfect cuboid had been found and no one had proven that it cannot exist. Exhaustive computer searches have proven that the smallest edge of the perfect box is at least 4.3 billion."
19:37:39 <fizzie> There certainly seem to be a lot of things that are not yet known. Those mathematicians ought to start getting things done.
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19:38:08 <Asztal> yeah, they should get around to finding those odd perfect numbers too
19:38:14 <fizzie> A perfect cuboid is one where the edges, face dianogals and the space diagonal are all integers.
19:38:28 <ehird> http://filebin.ca/fkwcwc/eclipple.mp3 A 3 in one deal. Correct followed by incorrect pronounciations of "oklopol" and "ehird", followed by the incorruptable "ais523".
19:38:31 <ehird> oklopol: is my pronouncuation of oklopol right
19:38:53 <AnMaster> ais523, oh? I plan to make sure that it calculates for the different refraction you get depending the wavelength of the photon
19:40:00 <ehird> AnMaster: my intentionally-bad pronounciation of oklopol
19:40:30 <ais523> ehird: are you female, or are my headphones broken?
19:40:35 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/cZIzpE66.html
19:40:43 <ehird> ais523: i'm a 13-year-old with an abnormally high voice.
19:40:49 <fizzie> "If it looks like a girl, sounds like a girl, ..."
19:40:53 <ehird> your headphones may or may not be broken.
19:41:01 <oklopol> ehird: the first one is about right
19:41:08 <fizzie> And quacks like a duck. (Disclaimer: didn't listen to it yet.)
19:41:10 <ehird> oklopol: 'about' right? :-P
19:41:34 <Asztal> he said the middle o was a long vowel, IIRC
19:42:08 <Asztal> ok, someone else said :)
19:42:11 <oklopol> why would a short o be long?
19:42:35 <oklopol> it's how a finnish child would say oklopol
19:42:43 <ehird> i am a finnish child!
19:42:49 <AnMaster> ~/tmp/oklopol.raw: RIFF (little-endian) data, WAVE audio, Microsoft PCM, 8 bit, mono 8000 Hz
19:42:52 <ehird> fizzie: You said something about quacking? http://filebin.ca/tkdpj/quack.mp3
19:42:55 <AnMaster> do you think you can play that?
19:42:59 <Deewiant> sounds like "okhlopoll" or something
19:43:06 <ehird> AnMaster: You could just use lame(1) to give an mp3, you know.
19:43:07 <oklopol> didn't notice it because of the l
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19:43:39 <oklopol> AnMaster: i'm pretty sure i can
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19:44:23 <ehird> fizzie: Though that quack isn't very...quacky.
19:44:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Make a wav first, then.
19:44:56 <ehird> lame has an option for raw input
19:45:17 <ehird> [[Sampling rate and
19:45:17 <ehird> mono/stereo/jstereo must be specified on the command line.]]
19:45:43 <fizzie> Deewiant: "joint stereo".
19:45:43 <ehird> Deewiant: joint stereo
19:45:47 <ehird> the newer versiony thing of stereo
19:46:00 <ehird> AnMaster: ok. lame -r -s 8 -m j foo.raw foo.mp3 for further reference
19:46:15 <AnMaster> ehird, noise too, that was one I tested
19:46:24 <ehird> AnMaster: your voice is weird
19:46:42 <AnMaster> so bad quality of recording too
19:46:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that page crashed my firefox
19:46:56 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's cheating. :p (For the high frequency part, there's no real stereo, just a single channel + panning.)
19:47:13 <ehird> fizzie: iirc, it actually produces better quality
19:47:18 <ehird> and smaller filesizes
19:47:26 <fizzie> Better quality for the same bitrate, maybe.
19:47:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Um, says the person who was astonished that I wasn't going to make my site work in IE..
19:47:44 <Deewiant> ahh, AnMaster sounds so swedish :-D
19:47:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it doesn't crash my firefox 2
19:48:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: stress on the first syllable
19:48:03 <AnMaster> so no clue why it crashes your
19:48:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for me firefox 2 opens a download dialog
19:48:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you need to stress the first syllable
19:48:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and what do I stress now?
19:49:03 <AnMaster> well if I stress the first one, it would sound English
19:49:06 <Deewiant> and then your o's just sound all swedish but I guess that can't be helped :-P
19:49:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: in finnish, all words have the stress on the first syllable
19:49:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and I could say it in English I guess
19:50:08 <oklopol> AnMaster: in english the vowels would be completely wrong
19:50:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://omploader.org/vdXZk <-- in English
19:50:32 * AnMaster wonders if ehird thinks that sound less strange
19:50:47 <ehird> AnMaster: oklopol uses windows.
19:50:58 <AnMaster> ehird, well I guess he could save it to disk
19:51:06 <ehird> AnMaster: And then how do you propose he opens it?
19:51:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yeah, englishy o's, I was going to say that next
19:51:15 <AnMaster> ehird, there is vlc or mplayer iirc
19:51:22 <oklopol> vlc should be able to play it
19:51:37 <Deewiant> oklopol: the sound is really quiet
19:51:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, really? sounded fine here
19:51:58 <Asztal> I used media player classic, that seemed to work.
19:52:10 <asiekierka> How's DOBELA? And how do YOU spell DOBELA
19:52:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: like said, replay gain put +16 decibels, and that's just analysing the sound
19:52:53 <ehird> asiekierka: he spells it DOBELA
19:52:56 <Deewiant> asiekierka: you probably meant something other than 'spell'
19:53:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, I can replay it just fine at a moderate volume in my headset
19:53:20 <fizzie> It is very quiet, yes. If you open it in audacity, the amplitude peaks go to something like 0.07, in the range [-1, 1].
19:53:23 <oklopol> just skip the aspiration and that's fine
19:53:49 <AnMaster> fizzie well... No clue about that
19:53:58 <ehird> My voice is very high: http://filebin.ca/rbccv/aaaaaa.mp3
19:53:59 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I don't, since I'm working on Photon
19:54:15 <AnMaster> ehird, "high volume" or "high pitch", or both?
19:54:25 <Deewiant> asiekierka: do-be-la where "be" is not pronounced like the english "be"
19:54:26 <asiekierka> oklopol: Just like me, but proper-englishfied, and i focus on "BEE"
19:54:40 <oklopol> ehird: that was awesome :)
19:54:42 <asiekierka> i pronounce it like "be" is pronounced like "bee"
19:54:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I got a very low pitched voice
19:54:49 <Deewiant> asiekierka: "be" as in "bet" here
19:55:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I think near low C iirc.
19:55:21 <ehird> all i know is that my throat hurts now
19:55:21 <AnMaster> but that was a few years ago, I almost reached it
19:55:45 <AnMaster> ehird, was that from encyclopedia btw?
19:55:58 <ehird> AnMaster: no... i made it
19:56:02 <ehird> with a microphone and audacity
19:56:13 <ehird> AnMaster: no, that's because that's what i said
19:56:19 <ehird> i said "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"
19:56:31 <oklopol> err wasn't it more like aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?
19:56:49 <AnMaster> ehird, ah I thought you used uncyclopedia as a script for that performance ;P
19:57:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm maybe I should stress the *last* syllable
19:57:41 <fizzie> I pronounce it like "doobela" in Finnish; that would be something like "doo" as in the word "door", then "be" as in the word "bed", and then the "la" as in... uh, "last".
19:57:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: err, no, don't do that. ;-P
19:57:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why not? It sounds fun
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19:58:17 <Deewiant> fizzie: american "last" is not that "la"
19:58:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, you can do whatever you want of course!
19:58:26 <ehird> oklopol: i am a mutant: http://filebin.ca/stzadm/aaaaaeriueuriuear.mp3
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19:58:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: You're right, I just couldn't figure out a good example there.
19:58:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about your nick?
19:59:03 <Deewiant> like "deviant", pronouncing "v" as "w" if you wish.
19:59:13 <ehird> oddly, http://filebin.ca/stzadm/aaaaaeriueuriuear.mp3 gets louder the lower my voice is
19:59:20 <ais523> yes, I pronounce it as "deviant" but with w not v
19:59:53 <fizzie> Deewiant: Okay, it's closer that way. I was trying to think of words that I'd start with a "la"-like sound, but the only things that came to mind were "lament" and "lart".
20:00:36 <Deewiant> asiekierka: no, that's again wrong. :-P
20:01:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I tried to adjust sound levels.
20:01:20 <ais523> "fizzie" is easy to pronounce, I think
20:01:28 <ais523> I wonder if I pronounce it the same way as other people
20:01:35 <Deewiant> unless it's meant to be pronounced finnish-ly
20:01:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://omploader.org/vdXZl
20:01:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about that for your nick?
20:01:59 <fizzie> ais523: People who use that name for me in real life just shorten it to "fiz"; like "fizz" but with a shorter buzz at the end.
20:02:18 <AnMaster> and yes I need to speak low to not disturb other ppl
20:02:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: replaygain gives only +10 dB now. :-)
20:02:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, that's what replay gain is for.
20:03:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: as for pronounciation, I'm not really hearing the "i" but I guess it's fine
20:03:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah there is an option "mic boost +20 db"?
20:03:38 <Deewiant> that, and undo what you did previously to increase it
20:03:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "turning recording level from 90% to 100% for channel mic"
20:04:00 <asiekierka> Hmm. So, as it turns out, DOBELA is left alone. Until someone makes an interpreter of something for it. And comparison is going to be a neato task. See you, and I hope the challenge of DOBELA TC-proving may be solved
20:04:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ugh I just get a LOT of loud noise now
20:04:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so bring it to 85% and do the boost thing.
20:04:18 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:04:32 <ehird> GASP! INTERPRETERS DO NOT WRITE THEMSELVES
20:05:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, and yes, most people I've heard to say "fizzie" have done it pretty finnish-ly, when not abbreviating it. Like "fitsie", not "fisi".
20:05:32 <AnMaster> Omploaded 'fizzie.ogg' to http://omploader.org/vdXZm
20:05:47 <Deewiant> fizzie: oh, finnish "z" too, didn't even realize that one :-)
20:05:55 <AnMaster> ehird, he should write it himself, as I suggested before
20:06:01 <ehird> AnMaster: he can't
20:06:04 <ehird> as he just admitted he can't program
20:06:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: +7 dB from replay gain now
20:06:13 <ehird> unfortunately, everything he does is terminally uninteresting
20:06:17 <ehird> so it wont' be written
20:06:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, when I play it back it got lots and lots of noise
20:07:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: most albums these days get -10 dB from replay gain
20:07:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, how was my attempt at your nick btw?
20:07:09 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, I don't really have a preferred pronunciation for it.
20:07:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: see "loudness war" at wikipedia if you're interested
20:07:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ugh. Well I change my headset volume as needed :p
20:07:32 <fizzie> AnMaster: I guess I'll have to fetch my headphones and check.
20:08:06 <AnMaster> anyway can't record more now without disturbing ppl
20:08:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also if you want I could do your nick in Swedish instead (but not right now)
20:09:01 <AnMaster> deeeviant (stressing the second syllable)
20:09:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I'll reiterate: "err, don't do that." :-P
20:09:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why not? got anything against Swedish?
20:09:21 <Deewiant> hmm, swedish pronunciation in my mind would stress the last syllable
20:09:57 <AnMaster> you could get a horribly strong "eeee" in some dialects
20:10:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, you're not the only one who says it like that. It's not the "finnishy" way of doing it, but as far as I'm concerned there isn't a specific correct way anyway.
20:10:27 <AnMaster> Stockholmsa for example I think
20:11:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, Well in Swedish it would have been like s, and no "buzzing z" (no idea about the correcting English word there, would be "tonande z" in Swedish)
20:11:17 <AnMaster> except we don't have that sound
20:14:22 <fizzie> The most Finnishy way has a rather peculiar 'z', it's that "ts" sound. Maybe Deewiant can describe it better.
20:14:56 <fizzie> My wife uses something close to how you'd probably say "fis" when talking with her relatives.
20:15:03 <fizzie> (My own relatives just use the real name.)
20:15:05 <ais523> fizzie: German prononuces z like that too
20:15:46 <Deewiant> it's z in IPA for what it's worth
20:16:33 <fizzie> IPA 'z' is "zoo", "rose"; so maybe not.
20:16:34 <Deewiant> no, it's not, it's t͡s or something
20:17:09 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolar_affricate
20:17:12 <Asztal> wikipedia said simply ts
20:18:29 <fizzie> Aw, the ts-ligature thing looks funnier than just "ts with an arc above".
20:22:07 <Deewiant> hmm, nobody's pronounced Asztal yet
20:23:39 <Asztal> the 'a' is the Hungarian a, which is like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Open_back_rounded_vowel.ogg
20:23:59 <Asztal> the stress is on the first syllable, and sz is pronounce like english s :)
20:24:40 <Asztal> as for the L, I think it's probably more like the Finnish one
20:24:54 <fizzie> "English s" really depends on whatever is around it; is it the IPA 's', like in "see" or "city" or "pass"?
20:25:42 <Asztal> I should have known better than to use English as a reference...
20:26:04 <Asztal> 'it sounds kind of like "ough"'
20:26:48 <Deewiant> hmm, that ɒ is one weird (but cool) sound
20:28:03 <Deewiant> found in hungarian, persian, afrikaans and some random languages + the only correct way of pronouncing english
20:31:01 <fizzie> For some reason the term "received pronunciation" always makes me think it wants to say "English pronunciation as received from God", or something. Where does the name come from, anyway?
20:32:01 <ais523> political correctness, I think
20:32:52 <Deewiant> fizzie: The word received conveys its original meaning of accepted or approved – as in "received wisdom".[3]
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21:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | In Python.... x = not x returns the opposite boolean value.... so infinity would have to have some sort of boolean value..
21:14:44 <oerjan> oh Dobela is an acronym, i thought it would be some polish word... is it that too?
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23:19:35 <oklopol> (oerjan: i think it's your turn...)
23:19:48 <oerjan> but i don't get what md is
23:21:01 <ais523> mendelevium is a chemical, isnt' it?
23:21:02 <oklopol> the next one in turn tries to find a category the thing said is an element of
23:21:12 <oklopol> and finds the "next element" in that category
23:21:17 <oklopol> or just another element if there's no order
23:21:38 <oerjan> i was confused. i thought you were saying md _was_ a game
23:27:55 <oklopol> oerjan: yeah, that was quite an obvious one
23:28:13 <ais523> also, everyone knows that oko comes after o
23:28:28 <oerjan> ais523: only in one category
23:28:38 <ais523> oko is a language too...
23:29:04 <oklopol> oko is an abbreviation for a finnish bank
23:29:42 <oerjan> well, ook would be even more disturbing
23:30:02 <oklopol> phd would've been a bit hard to continue
23:30:20 <oerjan> but then so is oilskin coat
23:30:48 <oerjan> i couldn't think of any other 2-letter doctorates without cheating
23:31:44 <oerjan> hm i should have said mc instead of mac. then we could have had car, cdr, ...
23:35:13 <oerjan> just ask O'Sullivan over there
23:42:23 <oerjan> hm is there a game named "Lost"? probably.
23:42:37 <ehird> based on the lost franchise
23:42:40 <ehird> saw it in a store a while ago
23:42:46 <ehird> nearly killed myself >:(
23:43:12 <oerjan> the question is, does it have a way to win? :D
23:43:44 <ehird> oerjan: its a board game i think
23:43:48 <oerjan> that does seem sort of against the spirit
23:43:51 <ehird> but you want a game called The Game
23:43:54 <ehird> not a game called Lost
23:44:07 <oerjan> there was a video game as the first google hit
23:44:29 <oerjan> no, no, i was thinking: Lost, the game
23:44:38 <oerjan> where the comma is strictly optional
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23:52:11 <oklopol> 01:27:21 ais523: oilskin coat
23:52:20 <oklopol> everything is much clearer now.
23:53:14 <oerjan> it all makes sense if you trust the little green man
23:54:40 <oklopol> hmm, could you also say "green little man"?
23:55:25 <oklopol> somehow, that doesn't sound bad even though adjectives usually wanna be the last attributes
23:55:47 <oerjan> er they are both adjectives
23:56:06 <oklopol> actually probably because "X-ey little man" is quite common
23:56:30 <oerjan> don't tell him he's X-ey. he could get angry.
23:56:36 <oklopol> oerjan: yes, but, for instance the canonical example, "red big balloon" is definitely wrong
23:58:18 <oklopol> sometimes adjectives just need to be in a certain order, determined by Magic
23:59:24 <oklopol> you know, the magic science is indisguishable from until psygnisfive tells us why that happens
00:00:03 <psygnisfive> actually there are certain well defined orderings for adjectives that seem to hold across languages. :)
00:00:20 <oklopol> indeed, it's "iso punainen pallo" in finnish too
00:00:21 <oerjan> that seems unlikely. after all psygnisfive is not green. afaik.
00:00:48 <oklopol> you can probably deduce punainen:fi means red and iso:fi means big
00:01:28 <oerjan> i guess the romance distinction between adjectives that go before and after the noun follow the same pattern?
00:01:52 <oklopol> psygnisfive: what are the orderings?
00:02:35 <psygnisfive> actually, romance adjectives that precede the noun are very rare, are restricted to certain classes of adjectives, and the readings you get from putting them before the noun are not the same as the ones from after the noun
00:03:02 <oerjan> i thought big and little were pretty rare too
00:03:02 <psygnisfive> e.g. in italian, "un uomini grande" (or whatever the exact words are), means "a large man"
00:03:19 <psygnisfive> but "un grande uomini" means "a great man/man of great character"
00:03:31 <psygnisfive> as for the ordering, i cant give them to you off the top of my head
00:03:32 <oklopol> oerjan: it's the color that does it, not the size
00:06:39 <oerjan> hm possibly little placed after other adjectives has a slightly different meaning too
00:08:50 <oklopol> i sense sort of a diminutive connotation
00:09:16 <psygnisfive> yes. the standard, non-interesting ordering is mostly the same across languages
00:09:38 <psygnisfive> for instance if you have two large books, one red and one blue
00:12:04 <oklopol> is that a sad face with a funny nose or a funny nose with a sad smile?
00:12:35 <oerjan> psygnisfive has a very strange beard
00:12:42 <oerjan> or some serious drooling
00:13:35 <oerjan> never typoe in a canoe
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00:15:05 <oerjan> avoid silly metaphors like the plague
00:15:28 <oerjan> and don't exaggerate even if your life depends on it
00:16:56 <oklopol> also avoid silly syntactic ambiguities like the plague
00:19:38 <oerjan> especially if you don't have a barn fell
00:20:06 <lament> the horse that raced past the barn fell fell?
00:22:32 <oerjan> i think people who claim fell can only be a verb have something to hide
00:34:55 <lament> my opinion of them just fell
00:35:56 <lament> psygnisfive: stop insulting my mother
00:36:05 <oklopol> ^choo fellfellfellfellfell
00:36:05 <fungot> fellfellfellfellfell ellfellfellfellfell llfellfellfellfell lfellfellfellfell fellfellfellfell ellfellfellfell llfellfellfell lfellfellfell fellfellfell ellfellfell llfellfell lfellfell fellfell ellfell llfe ...
00:36:43 <fungot> oklopolklopollopolopolpololl
00:37:14 <lament> what determines whether there're spaces or not?
00:37:35 <fungot> chatanooga hatanooga atanooga tanooga anooga nooga ooga oga ga a
00:41:24 <oklopol> oerjan: it's really annoying when you play with the bots for so many screenfulls.....
00:41:54 <fungot> choo choooohoo choooooo chooooo choooo choooochoooohoooooooooooooo
00:42:16 * oerjan swats oklopot with a kettle
00:42:46 <fungot> ``s`kk `s`kk s`kk `kk kk k
00:43:06 <fungot> `````s`kk ````s`kk ```s`kk ``s`kk `s`kk s`kk `kk kk k
00:43:41 <fungot> unlambdanlambdalambdaambdambdabdadaa
00:43:52 <oklopol> is unlambdanlambdalambdaambdambdabdadaa tc?
00:44:29 <psygnisfive> its turingcompleteuringcompleteringcompleteingcompletengcompletegcompleteompletempletepleteleteetetee
00:45:06 <fungot> turing complete uring complete ring complete ing complete ng complete g complete complete complete omplete mplete plete lete ete te e
00:45:21 <oerjan> also ^cho on a well-formed unlambda expression (longer than a single letter) cannot work i think
00:45:42 <oerjan> but maybe if you start with something that has more `
00:45:50 <oklopol> oerjan: but what if the expression itself isn't well-wormed?
00:46:13 <oklopol> you weren't talking about worms
00:46:43 <oerjan> i suggest fe worm a committee to investigate
00:48:16 <oklopol> you can probably like, compile unlambda progs to unlaambdanlamb..., but somehow making it ignore the nlambdalambdaambda... part
00:50:30 <oklopol> so say you have something like ```sii``sii
00:50:52 <oklopol> could you somehow en-cho that so that it just runs that actual program
00:51:04 <fungot> ```sii``sii``sii``sii`sii``siisii``siiii``siii``sii``sii`siisiiiii
00:52:16 <oerjan> well apart from those interpreters that ignore extra parts of the file (or treat it as program input)
00:52:44 <oerjan> (which is easy since unlambda is LR(0))
00:55:27 <oerjan> oh and have anyone found actual real words produced by ^cho
00:56:05 <oerjan> because you don't need to look at next character to know how things parse so far
00:56:13 <lament> but it's not much of a word
00:56:31 <lament> pazazz actually has nearly 100K google hits
00:56:49 <lament> it's a clothing company
00:58:47 <oklopol> i was thinking posess, which was almost possess
00:58:55 <oklopol> so that was both pointless and a failure
01:03:09 <lament> there's quite a few three-letter words which work
01:03:45 <lament> unfortunately, i'm afraid bazazz and pazazz are the only ones in my dictionary otherwise
01:03:48 <lament> (that are full matches)
01:04:01 <oerjan> hmph this one has only pazazz
01:04:13 <oklopol> well check 1234234344 too, just to be sure
01:04:29 <oerjan> i checked '\(.\)\(.\)\1\2\2$'
01:04:37 <fungot> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
01:04:54 <oerjan> that includes everything relevant + some noise
01:05:13 <lament> oerjan: i checked those things for length of chain of 1 to 5
01:05:45 <oklopol> that's a bit harder to search
01:06:24 <oklopol> well not really harder, but if you're using regexps for this, it's prolly impossible
01:07:09 <oerjan> words such that every tail is also a word?
01:07:21 <oklopol> put that way, it's quite simple
01:07:44 <oklopol> because that's equal to words such that the tail is also such a word
01:08:40 <oklopol> so just one lookup per word, and a flag for each
01:12:53 <fungot> wrestable restable estable stable table able ble le e
01:13:31 <lament> it's some abbreviation
01:14:11 <lament> i can try without cutoff
01:15:18 <fungot> suprising uprising prising rising ising sing ing ng g
01:16:49 <lament> considering i got this from a "spell checker word list"...
01:17:43 <lament> it certainly doesn't seem real...
01:18:18 <oerjan> dictionary.com claims it doesn't exist
01:19:04 <oerjan> as does merriam-webster
01:19:12 <lament> is it what they make isinglass from? :)
01:19:13 <Asztal> dictionary.com says ising is a word (but shows the entry for vocalize, oddly)
01:19:33 <lament> Ising is a last name...
01:19:42 <oklopol> i can do a search on the some 150 dictionaries lingobot has, tomorrow
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01:19:47 <lament> wikipedia alone has 226 typos of suprising
01:19:53 <oklopol> suprising is a last name too
01:20:09 <lament> there's more than a million hits for suprising
01:20:13 <oklopol> that doesn't exactly make suprising a word
01:20:41 <oklopol> okay i'm officially too tired now.
01:20:54 <oerjan> well if we consider how many of those were using faulty linux dictionaries...
01:21:09 <oerjan> no wonder it is spreading
01:21:38 * oerjan should officially go to bed too
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03:07:09 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | And Prim is some wacky little thing..
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04:19:05 <lament> ^cho Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
04:19:06 <fungot> Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ...
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04:48:01 <Sgeo> ^cho Is this just an echo thing?
04:48:01 <fungot> Is this just an echo thing?s this just an echo thing? this just an echo thing?this just an echo thing?his just an echo thing?is just an echo thing?s just an echo thing? just an echo thing?just an echo thing? ...
04:48:19 <Sgeo> ^cho Not quite
04:48:19 <fungot> Not quiteot quitet quite quitequiteuiteitetee
04:48:35 <Sgeo> ^cho ababababa
04:48:35 <fungot> ababababababababaababababababaababababaababaa
04:49:12 <fungot> This is lame.his is lame.is is lame.s is lame. is lame.is lame.s lame. lame.lame.ame.me.e..
04:53:03 <ab5tract> ^cho fungot is a crazy woromboist
04:53:03 <fungot> fungot is a crazy woromboistungot is a crazy woromboistngot is a crazy woromboistgot is a crazy woromboistot is a crazy woromboistt is a crazy woromboist is a crazy woromboistis a crazy woromboists a crazy w ...
04:53:32 <ab5tract> fungot doesnt respond to saying its own name :(
04:53:33 <fungot> ab5tract: that's a ver absic interface to mod_lisp...
04:54:17 <fungot> Üņìçôđé ŗūĺzņìçôđé ŗūĺzņìçôđé ŗūĺzìçôđé ŗūĺzìçôđé ŗūĺzçôđé ŗūĺzçôđé ŗūĺzôđé ŗūĺzôđé ŗūĺzđé ŗūĺzđé ŗūĺzé ŗūĺzé ŗūĺ ...
04:55:36 <fungot> ab5tract: by ted fnord: fnord fnord tiksi fnord fnord
05:44:14 <ab5tract> fungot: not as impressive as you seem?
05:44:15 <fungot> ab5tract: that's only a warning.
05:44:22 <fungot> ab5tract: luxy i cant wait to see fahrenheit 911 when it comes to names
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06:14:56 <asiekierka> <ehird> unfortunately, everything he does is terminally uninteresting
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12:14:14 <ehird> asiekierka: <ehird> unfortunately, everything he does is terminally uninteresting
12:14:16 <ehird> [12:13] asiekierka: *AHEM*
12:14:18 <ehird> [12:13] asiekierka: that was NOT funny
12:14:20 <ehird> that's ok, it wasn't a joke.
12:28:14 <fizzie> Heh, the people from the local computer science students' club/association/thing sent this postcard from the annual Saint Petersburg train-trip: http://flickr.com/photos/oiva/2920226756/
12:30:11 <fizzie> And it managed to get all the way back here to the computer science building; the full address would be "Konemiehentie 2, 02150 Espoo". Admittedly the crossword puzzle is _very_ simple (if you speak Finnish, that is), but it's still rather neat that they did deliver it at all.
12:30:37 <ehird> Hm. Where is my ircnomic bot?
12:30:41 <ehird> That is the question
12:31:28 <fizzie> I wouldn't be too surprised if it had included the postal number (the local post office is probably pretty used to receiving cards like that) but that one only has "Finland", which I guess means some sort of central post office person has had to puzzle out the correct address.
12:33:38 <fizzie> oklopol: "hammas", I think.
12:33:49 <fizzie> (Teeth, for non-Finnish people.)
12:33:53 <oklopol> 14:30:58 @Nailor: http://flickr.com/photos/oiva/2920226756/
12:34:20 <fizzie> That, and the earlier "ikkuna" (window) were the hardest ones.
12:34:26 <fizzie> Heh, it goes around and around.
12:34:27 <oklopol> well not the university's, the... what's the smaller thing :-)
12:34:45 <oklopol> did that originate from you?
12:34:58 <oklopol> oh, hammas, i was thinking huuli[s]
12:35:25 <fizzie> No; but I got the link from the person whose flicker account it is, so my copy was just a second-generation one.
12:35:36 <fizzie> Not that there seems to be much degradation in the URL.
12:36:02 <ehird> i'm not sure what i'm meant to get about that card
12:36:05 <fizzie> Or is it a first-generation copy when it's directly from the original? Not sure.
12:36:19 <ehird> nomicbot seems to be dead
12:36:22 <oklopol> ehird: the address is given as a crossword puzzle
12:36:37 <ehird> oklopol: haha, that is great
12:37:01 <ehird> next up: NP-complet address calculation
12:37:13 <fizzie> The post office person hadn't actually filled the address in the crossword, though, just there on the empty address lines.
12:38:05 <fizzie> And the "kiinnostaa"/"ei kiinnosta" checkboxes ("interesting"/"not interesting") also went unmarked. I guess they have some sort of policy not to write in people's postcards. :p
12:38:47 <ehird> np complete addresses would own
12:39:08 <oklopol> yes, except they would just return the card
12:39:30 <oklopol> "anyone knows them algos here?" "nah" "oki ima send this back"
12:39:36 <ehird> well, uh, if i sent out a postcard addressed with a crossword i'd expect it to be returned
12:40:03 <oklopol> well, i can pretty much just read that without thinking, apart from the last clue
12:40:23 <oklopol> which wasn't really needed
12:40:43 <fizzie> Yes, as far as crossword puzzles go that was a really simple one.
12:40:51 <ehird> It'd help if I knew finnish, of course.
12:41:12 <ehird> but yeah, if i sent out anything remotely like that it'dd just be returned
12:41:14 <oklopol> all crossword puzzles with a "solution row" are trivial
12:41:22 <fizzie> It's just "cat" (the word 'miau' is the finnish version of 'meow'), "apple", "nose", "snail", "man", "window", "no", "tooth".
12:41:31 <oklopol> well, the puzzle part is trivial
12:42:05 <oklopol> the picture decrypting may not be
12:49:53 <oklopol> perhaps i should do some work on noprob today
12:50:04 <oklopol> i think i've finally wrapped my head around the probabilities
12:51:42 <oklopol> the implementation will, though, list the entire truth table all the time, because probabilities become a bit tricky otherwise, and i have no idea how to do problotures yet, because i'm not sure how to list the *whole* truth table *lazily*
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13:33:04 <AnMaster> "True if the given string or variable's value is lexicographically less (or greater, or equal) than the string on the right."
13:33:16 <AnMaster> would that imply case sensitive or case insensitive
13:37:52 <AnMaster> hrrm a test shows it is case sensitive
13:38:14 * AnMaster looks for an insensitive string compare in cmake...
13:40:32 <fizzie> You can always string(TOLOWER in out) them both. Not very pretty.
13:46:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, breaks since string may not be set
13:46:45 <AnMaster> I'm trying to compare the build type
13:47:00 <AnMaster> but other than that I already coded the something like that
13:47:15 * AnMaster tries to figure out how to handle " STRING no output variable specified"
13:47:36 <AnMaster> since string only takes a string, not a variable
13:48:24 <AnMaster> hm quoting it too seems to work
13:50:36 <oklopol> i've never understood why people keep making the same simple mistakes
13:50:57 <oklopol> the reason is probably they don't give a shit
13:51:04 <oklopol> but it's still confuzzling
13:51:15 <AnMaster> well I try to, it is just due to bad habit
13:52:03 <oklopol> bad habit is fine methinks.
13:52:14 <oklopol> but not the best way to put it
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14:33:30 <M0ny> hi AnMaster and ais523
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15:07:09 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I hate how, no matter what concept of programming you follow, there's always a nasty corner :P.
15:08:07 <oerjan> clearly we need a concept of soft, fuzzy programming
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15:19:57 <ais523> asiekierka: joining, and then saying you hate ehird before he's even said anything?
15:20:11 <oklopol> ais523: response to what he said in the log
15:20:19 <asiekierka> <ehird> unfortunately, everything he does is terminally uninteresting
15:20:27 <ais523> ah, I remember that now
15:20:39 <ais523> but different people have different ideas of which esoprograms are interesting
15:20:40 <asiekierka> Also, i know how to use the tunes.org logs, if you didn't know
15:20:57 <ais523> normally when I respond to logs I give some clue that that's what I'm doing
15:21:34 <oklopol> don't take too much offense, ehird doesn't really watch what he says, and he to hate things
15:22:11 <thutubot> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...too much output!
15:22:41 <oklopol> how do you program unlambda? do you compile lc->ski->ul?`
15:22:51 <ais523> that's the usual method
15:22:59 <ais523> also, I interpret ul as referring to Underload, normally
15:23:04 <oklopol> what i'm asking is do you do that
15:23:10 <oklopol> err yes, i meant underload
15:23:22 <ais523> oh, Underload programming is pretty different
15:23:35 <ais523> normally I program directly in the Underload, I have quite an idea of how it works by now
15:23:51 <oklopol> because i can't do it, it's pretty cool
15:24:03 <ais523> although I have an optimising ski compiler that can compile ``sii into :^, :^ is probably intuitively easier to understand
15:24:12 <oerjan> underload might be close to Joy than unlambda, maybe?
15:24:16 <ais523> and there are tricks that work in Underload but not LC
15:24:42 <ais523> for instance, my divide-by-10 code works by using the stack
15:24:53 <ais523> and each stack element pops the 9 below it
15:25:03 <ais523> and then executes the one below
15:25:24 <ais523> I can't even think of a way to express that sort of thing in a non-concatenative lang, except by bundling a concatenative interpreter
15:25:59 <oklopol> i don't get how that works
15:26:11 <asiekierka> Anyway, I may write some other esolangs
15:26:29 <asiekierka> Actually, DOBELA itself could be called DOBELA_mini
15:26:33 <oklopol> asiekierka: when he comes online, he will definitely give you another reason to hate him, it's his thing
15:26:39 <oerjan> asiekierka: you didn't notice my question whether DOBELA means anything in polish?
15:26:56 <ais523> +ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
15:26:58 <thutubot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/******************************************************* ...too much output!
15:26:59 <asiekierka> It stands for DOt-Based Esoteric LAnguage, read the wiki entry
15:27:25 <oerjan> but it could still have a meaningful acronym
15:27:42 <oklopol> i wonder if you could make something like a boolean circuit out of that
15:28:11 <oerjan> it's an african name, if google speaks truely
15:28:22 <ais523> asiekierka: of DOBELA, presumably
15:28:41 <ais523> does DOBELA have any way to remove # signs once they've been created?
15:28:48 <ais523> if it doesn't, control flow might be quite hard
15:28:58 <oklopol> ais523: computation can only be done using | afaik
15:29:13 <asiekierka> Also, you can stop the generator thing
15:29:45 <ais523> asiekierka: it's much easier to program with locals than globals, if you've only got globals like the generator then proving TCness is much harder, whether it's TC or not
15:30:12 <ais523> +ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:)~*(*)*( )S~:^):^
15:30:29 <oklopol> ais523: locals and globals in what sense?
15:30:34 <asiekierka> ais523: Uh, yes, i could make it that if a generator is hit north, it changes it's state (on/off) and when hit south, it's type (zeros/ones)
15:30:37 <ais523> oklopol: things local to part of a program
15:30:39 <thutubot> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 8 ...too much output!
15:30:47 <ais523> the problem is that controlling generators is a global thing
15:30:48 <asiekierka> But setting the global one overrides everything
15:31:00 <oerjan> asiekierka: i noticed some holes in the spec, say what happens with multi-dot collisions
15:31:18 <oerjan> 3 or more dots colliding
15:31:19 <oklopol> ais523: oh i didn't notice anything global
15:31:58 <asiekierka> but i'll set the generators to be local too, just in case
15:32:22 <oerjan> and also for collisions in other directions than horizontal
15:32:39 <asiekierka> In vertical, pretty much the same happens
15:32:40 <ais523> +ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^:*( )S~:^):^
15:33:08 <asiekierka> And multi-dot collisions? Pretty much it's a very rare exception
15:33:11 <thutubot> 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 ...too much output!
15:33:20 <asiekierka> But it's possible that one dot collides with a dot that collides with another dot
15:33:21 <ais523> ugh, it wasn't meant to do that
15:33:26 <oklopol> asiekierka: the problem is, if you control local things with global switches, it's hard to get sensible computation, as you cannot really be modular when all parts of your program are changing the same global state for their own purposes
15:33:44 <asiekierka> you can control local things with both now
15:33:50 <asiekierka> But global overrides local IF YOU USE IT
15:34:05 <ais523> +ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:*)*( )S~:^):^
15:34:20 <ais523> spotted the bug, I was doing x squared rather than x times 2
15:34:21 <asiekierka> Wall/dot collisions are weird, but that was the main point of dobela
15:34:32 <oklopol> asiekierka: how do you do a local change?
15:34:44 <thutubot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 ...too much memory used!
15:34:58 <oklopol> also i don't see what difference it makes whether dots are 1 or 0 really
15:35:04 <asiekierka> as in, dot collides with a dot that collides with a dot
15:35:11 <oklopol> i think. i can't really tell how hard that is :P
15:35:16 <ais523> oklopol: not really, multiplication's easy in Underload, it's easier than addition anyway
15:35:19 <asiekierka> Then we scan the board from north-west to south-east, left-right, up-down
15:35:30 <ais523> not as easy as exponentiation though
15:35:35 <oklopol> ais523: each me a bit, will ya?
15:35:36 <asiekierka> First the topleftmost dot's collision is done
15:35:57 <ais523> oklopol: 5 would be (::::****)
15:36:15 <asiekierka> oklopol: 0 and 1 difference is mainly output, and rotation direction
15:36:17 <ais523> (x)~^S is just code to output a number in unary
15:36:26 <asiekierka> As generators output every other cycle
15:36:38 <ais523> basically, in the number scheme I normally use, 0 is !()
15:36:43 <asiekierka> You could use some tricks to output every 4th cycle north, and every 4th south
15:36:49 <ais523> :* is 2, ::** is 3, :::*** is 4, and so on
15:37:05 <ais523> basically, 0 makes no copies of its argument
15:37:10 <oklopol> let me try to make addition
15:37:11 <ais523> by popping it and replacing it with a null string
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15:38:24 <oklopol> say you have numbers a and b, (x)(a)^(b)^ will do ((x*a)*b), except that's multiplication
15:38:57 <ais523> oklopol: yes, concatenation is exponeniation
15:38:59 <oklopol> asiekierka: i guessed that
15:39:09 <oklopol> ais523: but but, i don't see why :o
15:39:31 <oklopol> if you've concatenated things
15:39:34 <ais523> which concatenation does depends on where the parens ar
15:40:34 <ais523> asiekierka: try refreshing, if it still doesn't work there's a problem
15:40:51 <ais523> oklopol: well, 2 means "make 2 copies", and 3 means "make 3 copies"
15:40:56 <oklopol> ais523: so (::::****:::***) would be 64?
15:41:04 <ais523> so if you do 2 then 3, you make 2 copies of the top of the stack, then 3 copies of the top of that
15:41:13 <ais523> and no, (::::***:::***) is 5*4 is 20
15:41:23 <oklopol> so concatenation is multiplication
15:41:25 <ais523> whereas (::::***):::*** is 5^4 which is 625
15:41:50 <ais523> +ul (::::****:::***)(x)~^S
15:41:56 <ais523> +ul (::::****):::***(x)~^S
15:41:57 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
15:42:01 <oklopol> does this actually make * multiplication and ^ exponentiation?
15:42:14 <ais523> why do you think I chose those symbols?
15:42:21 <oklopol> ais523: that's incredibly awesome
15:42:50 * ais523 notes that there's a bug in thutubot's ...too much output! message
15:43:00 <ais523> in that sometimes it ends up clipped off because there's too much output
15:43:27 <ais523> anyway, to increment a number you put : at the start and * at the end
15:43:45 <oklopol> addition is done like that too?
15:43:47 <ais523> and to add two numbers, you increment the first a number of times equal to the second
15:44:26 <ais523> well, say you have 3 beneath 5 on the stack
15:44:34 <ais523> and you do ((:)~*(*)*)~^^
15:44:43 <ais523> you're pushing the code for increment on the stack
15:44:47 <ais523> then swapping it below the 5
15:44:55 <ais523> evalling the 5 with ^ makes 5 copies of increment
15:45:06 <ais523> then evalling the 5 copies of increment with ^ adds 5 to the number below
15:45:13 <ais523> so you end up with 8 on the stack
15:46:35 <ais523> that's the most common way to loop a fixed number of times in Underload, too
15:46:50 <oklopol> anything you could give me as homework? i wanna try to do something simple
15:47:07 <asiekierka> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/DOBELA - Some fixes
15:47:26 <ais523> try to write an infinite loop which outputs something each time round the loop, that's nice and simple
15:47:27 <asiekierka> (wow, i actually did 10 revisions? Nope, 9, but one was a double-version fix since it changed a little too much)
15:48:04 <ais523> hmm... probably the Ackermann function is simple to write in Underload too, I've never tried though
15:48:36 <asiekierka> I wonder if you can calculate PI in underload... hmm...
15:49:03 <oklopol> ais523: sounds simple, /me tries
15:50:10 <oklopol> ah, i think i see the way to do recursion
15:50:29 <ais523> I generally do recursion by giving the function to itself as its first argument
15:50:30 <oklopol> just like you'd do it in python without globals, just give the lambda itself as param
15:50:45 <oklopol> that's exactly what i was going to say, and said
15:51:22 <asiekierka> I wonder if DOBELA is low-level, high-level or middle-level
15:51:43 <ais523> oklopol: x isn't a real command
15:51:47 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
15:52:16 <ais523> oklopol: that looks right, yes
15:52:26 <ais523> maybe I should say "look, no lambdas!"
15:52:36 <ais523> but Underload is only a functional lang sometimes
15:52:48 <ais523> programming in it normally ends up functionallish in practice, though
15:52:53 <oklopol> well i wasn't really thinking functionally there
15:52:54 <oerjan> asiekierka: the only usable infinite memory is the FIFO, right? so it might need to be programmed like a tag system
15:53:13 <ais523> that's an imperative Underload program, if you just take (...:^):^ as meaning "infinite while loop"
15:53:29 <ais523> oerjan: ah, tag system would work even better than Minsky machine
15:53:33 <ais523> I approve of that idea
15:53:45 <ais523> probably either regular tag or cyclic tag would work
15:53:48 <ais523> not sure which would be easier
15:54:44 <asiekierka> Hmm, so, do you think DOBELA is TC now
15:55:05 <asiekierka> If hit south, makes everything moving west/east go down,
15:55:05 <asiekierka> if hit north, makes everything moving west/east go up.
15:55:19 <oerjan> asiekierka: it's at least pretty close
15:55:34 <ais523> I think that's enough, probably
15:55:44 <ais523> you could set up a cyclic tag input without problem, I think
15:55:53 <ais523> use a large vertical loop
15:56:03 <ais523> as in, a loop which is up and down next to each other
15:56:20 <ais523> at the bottom, you use # to route 0 and 1 in different directions, and make them hit the top or bottom of a | appropriately
15:56:27 <ais523> this doesn't affect the loop as it's vertical
15:56:42 <ais523> and you can easily use a generator to clone the original output, making a loop that way
15:56:48 <ais523> then you have a separate loop via the global FIFO
15:57:04 <ais523> that is the cyclic tag system's working string
15:57:31 <ais523> so yes, TC I think, the only possible reason that wouldn't work is due to it being impossible to set up the timing correctly, and I don't think that's the case
15:57:51 <asiekierka> which can be every 4th cycle if you don't care about the dot content
15:57:59 <oklopol> btw, a fun fact about noprob: even though you can write the program line by line, so that every line has one specific purpose, like setting a variable to 1%7 (my high precedence operator for division in notation), you can actually take all the triples in the program, and just scramble them anyway you like
15:58:05 <oklopol> except for the problotures
15:58:10 <asiekierka> every 4th cycle left, every 4th cycle starting from the 2nd one right
15:58:14 <oklopol> but you can scramble them internally too
15:59:17 <oklopol> this is a trivial consequence of the fact it's basically just 3-sat, of course, but it's still quite interesting how the execution will be sequential no matter what order you type things in
15:59:30 <asiekierka> So it's not TC maybe, but at least very, VERY close
15:59:53 <asiekierka> The board size is theoretically infinite
15:59:58 <oklopol> yeah, you should add a dash more computation
16:00:20 <oklopol> add a counter, and a command to increment it, that probably gives us about a percent more
16:00:44 <oerjan> asiekierka: the problem with the board size is i don't think you have any way to grow the board contents indefinitely in a way that you can use
16:01:43 <oerjan> you don't need that for making a tag system though
16:01:56 <asiekierka> and is a tag system enough for TC-ness?
16:02:20 <asiekierka> So can we assume it's 100% TC, 99% TC, or not TC at all
16:02:30 <ais523> tag systems are enough
16:02:53 <asiekierka> Which i'll fix by adding the 10th command
16:03:01 <asiekierka> how many commands can you have max for a turing tarpit?
16:03:10 <ais523> no more than necessary
16:03:25 <ais523> but in practice, tarpits seem to work out at about 8 or 9
16:04:24 <oklopol> 3-sat solving language, which i would very much like to be coding right now.
16:04:32 <ais523> asiekierka: I don't really think of DOBELA as a tarpit
16:04:39 <ais523> compare it to Black, for instance, which only has 1 command
16:05:05 <asiekierka> But it's based on AnMaster's idea. I created my wall/dot idea, he added some ideas, then went on to work on Proton
16:05:50 <oklopol> having AnMaster around doesn't automatically make things tarpits :P
16:05:59 <oklopol> quite the opposite, i'd wager
16:06:17 <asiekierka> without him, collisions would be vastly different
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16:10:52 <asiekierka> So, well, is my language at least a little interesting
16:11:32 <AnMaster> pseudo physics, since the model isn't accurate ;P
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16:12:15 <asiekierka> So, is my language at least a little interesting? - if you didn't hear
16:15:10 <Slereah_> I find it a weird thing to say
16:16:36 <oerjan> Slereah_: momentum, of course. duh.
16:17:01 <Slereah_> I was thinking rotating on itself
16:17:20 <oerjan> "and you call yourself a physicist"
16:17:37 <Slereah_> Well, when something hits a wall, it won't rotate 90
16:17:59 <oerjan> clearly this world has different symmetries :D
16:18:01 <Slereah_> Unless you do something other than horizontal/vertical
16:18:45 <oerjan> i'm thinking noether's theorem here
16:19:43 * oerjan makes a note: physics trolling, Slereah_. linguistics trolling, psygnisfive.
16:21:12 <asiekierka> it'll rotate 90s a wall, it won't rotate 90
16:21:32 <asiekierka> Check Cat (commented) to see how it works
16:22:06 <asiekierka> Also, who said this world has... PHYSICS!?
16:25:15 <Asztal> maybe walls are actually weird magnetic... things
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16:26:39 <asiekierka> We can just say dots are "living beings"
16:26:56 <asiekierka> that consist of a microprocessor, a lamp, and wheels
16:27:04 <oerjan> hm and dots are either electrons or positrons.
16:27:28 <oerjan> but those things that convert between matter and antimatter then are a bit scary
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16:28:23 <Slereah_> [17:17:53] <oerjan> clearly this world has different symmetries :D
16:28:23 <Slereah_> [17:17:53] <Slereah_> Unless you do something other than horizontal/vertical
16:28:23 <Slereah_> [17:18:09] <Slereah_> It's not a symetry problem
16:28:23 <Slereah_> [17:18:14] <Slereah_> It's conservation of momentum
16:28:23 <Slereah_> [17:18:34] <Slereah_> Which is a sort of symetry, but well
16:28:30 * oerjan adds: just about any trolling, asiekierka.
16:29:04 <Asztal> or maybe they just have a lot of sidespin
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16:29:14 <ehird> *oerjan adds: just about any trolling, asiekierka.
16:29:16 * asiekierka notes: calling everyone a troller, oerjan.
16:29:34 <oerjan> asiekierka: no no, a victim for _my_ trolling. sheesh.
16:30:24 <asiekierka> But i'll try to cook up an eXplanation
16:30:44 <oerjan> Slereah_: didn't get that last one. you may wish to check tunes as a lot was said
16:30:44 <Slereah_> asiekierka : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Argh/1221655091974.jpg
16:31:11 <Slereah_> I'll check as soon as my FUCKING INTERNET WORKS >:V
16:31:26 <oerjan> asiekierka: also, yes =
16:32:00 -!- Slereah has joined.
16:32:04 <Slereah> [17:30:40] <Slereah_> Is that trolly enough? :o
16:32:05 <Slereah> [17:31:02] <Slereah_> I'll check as soon as my FUCKING INTERNET WORKS >:V
16:32:07 <Slereah> [17:31:29] * Disconnected*
16:32:20 <oerjan> asiekierka: just as long as it doesn't involve smurfs. FOR MERCY'S SAKE, NO SMURFS
16:32:53 <asiekierka> Basically, we can call this 2D world a "processing being".
16:32:53 <asiekierka> Dots are "data holders", they hold data and move it based on instructions. Walls are instructions for dots. An input outputter is connected to a wire transmitting data.
16:32:53 <asiekierka> Outputting things are also connected to a wire, they transmit data. Flippers change the data dots hold. Generators are weird, they materialize dots.
16:32:53 <asiekierka> The west/east control flower is an instruction holder. The FIFO controller is connected to a wire, and this manages the "RAM".
16:33:36 <fizzie> In the Wikipedia dump I got for fungot-teaching, there are 2385413 talk pages, containing a total of 4820550212 characters of Wiki-markup.
16:33:37 <fungot> fizzie: i think java's nice. not innovative, but nice idea
16:33:45 <asiekierka> There's a generic controller too, controlling the FIFO and generators. It's also connected to a wire
16:33:48 * oerjan notes that his reverse psychology failed.
16:34:07 <fizzie> fungot: Do you want me to reimplement you with Java, huh? Wouldn't that be pointless?
16:34:08 <fungot> fizzie: anyway using y is not something i have thought about a cons of two lists
16:34:50 <oerjan> asiekierka: wires are _so_ last century
16:35:13 <asiekierka> But this is the processor of a motherboard, the code
16:35:26 <asiekierka> And the controller is connected to... something
16:52:10 <asiekierka> I'm wondering whether to change something in DOBELA
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16:53:17 <asiekierka> Slereah, Slereah- and Slereah_: BATTLE TIME!
16:54:07 <oerjan> NOTE: when fighting your own clone, make sure it's not really yourself from the past. that could be messy.
16:54:37 <ais523> also, if it's yourself from the future, make sure not to lose
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16:55:38 <Slereah-> asiekierka can attest to that!
16:56:04 <oerjan> psygnisfive: sheesh, you too? WHY MUST EVERYONE MUSINDERSTAND ME!
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16:56:36 <oerjan> ais523: it has tripped up other esolangers before, such as David Morgan-Mar
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17:00:00 <oerjan> the worsester of them all!
17:00:10 -!- asiekiekka has changed nick to asiekierka.
17:00:29 <oerjan> and here i thought you were bruising up on your finnish
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17:31:01 <GregorR> oerjan: Don't you mean "The Worcestershire of them all!"
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17:42:01 <lament> That's what they all say
17:42:11 <Slereah-> Yeah, but when I think of Underload
17:42:14 <ais523_|direct> a originally comes from Lisp car, but the connection is so tortuous and unusual that it's unlikely to be obvious to people
17:43:06 <fizzie> Underload: puts the ass back into (:aSS):aSS.
17:43:12 * ais523_|direct thinks that maybe ehird shouldn't reboot servers arbitrarily without warning the other people using them...
17:43:37 <oerjan> oklopol: at least there is one...
17:44:28 <oerjan> GregorR: i think advertising Worcester sauce has got to be a challenge
17:45:24 <oklopol> ais523_|direct: your intuition about 100% probabilities was perhaps right
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17:45:59 <oklopol> i have no idea why that should set C to true with 100% probability
17:46:10 <oklopol> but it should, so that the operation would be symmetric
17:46:36 <oklopol> because A = .B ^ 1 will set A to 1%2
17:46:45 <oklopol> .A = .B ^ C should set C to 1
17:47:09 <oklopol> (.A and those are variables that are always true with 1%2 probability)
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17:49:45 <oklopol> A = .B ^ 1 will clearly do A = 1%2, because the truth table's true entries, with the constraint that C is true, are A=0,B=0,C=1; A=1,B=1,C=1, so A is equivalent to .B
17:49:57 <oklopol> which will just mean A = 1%2, after .B goes out of scope
17:50:25 <oklopol> but, i'm not actually sure that *is* a symmetric relation, well, actually i'm pretty sure it isn't.
17:51:56 <oklopol> so, basically, i'm not sure there's any way to "decrement" a variable, if we're representing number n as 1%2^n
17:52:12 <oklopol> just a way to add them together
17:52:46 <oklopol> it seems i still have some trouble seen how all this satting even works with probabilities
17:53:09 <oklopol> perhaps i should just try evaluating them, and see whether the whole operation even *makes sense*
17:53:17 <oklopol> because clearly my intuition fails me here
17:54:08 <oklopol> more generally, A = B ^ C, where B and C are known, multiplies together the probabilities of B and C, and makes A that; clear from both the semantics of probabilities, and the truth table
17:54:34 <oklopol> issue is this is not reversible, for some reason oerjan can probably tell me if i highlight him
17:54:59 <oklopol> do you get my point at all?
17:55:18 <oerjan> i don't understand the basics
17:55:37 <ais523_|direct> oklopol: the problem is that if something has less than 100% probability, there's nothing you can OR it with to make 100% except 1
17:55:50 <ais523_|direct> and if you do that it doesn't depend on the initial variable
17:56:10 <oklopol> ais523_|direct: yeah but you don't have to just evaluate boolean expressions
17:56:10 <ais523_|direct> detecting if something had exactly 50% probability would work I think, except that that really makes no obvious sense as an operation
17:56:33 * oerjan assumes ais523_|direct understands this better than him
17:56:39 <oklopol> SAT is about "making the expression true" by making anything anything that hasn't been initialized yet
17:57:12 <ais523_|direct> btw, ais523_|direct is the account you /query me on if you don't want ehird to be able to spy
17:58:31 <oklopol> so, intuitively, it seems that because A = B ^ C, where we don't know A, makes A the product of B and C, you'd think if you do A = B ^ C, where you don't know C, C would be made something that, when multiplied by B, becomes A
17:58:37 <oklopol> ais523_|direct: yes i'm aware of that
17:59:11 <asiekierka> oklopol, ais523_|direct, oerjan: What are you talking about? I was busy for a while
17:59:24 <oerjan> oklopol: i am somewhat dubious on this, doesn't this assume that B and C are independent?
17:59:30 <ais523_|direct> oklopol: that's what a reverse assignment is in INTERCAL
18:00:03 <oklopol> oerjan: all .X's are independent, and 0.5 initially
18:00:17 <oklopol> if i'm considering something a value, i'm also assuming it's independent of the things i'm doing calculations with
18:00:21 <oerjan> if there was another equation involving both of them, and some fourth variable...
18:00:49 <oerjan> that's not what i meant
18:00:52 <oklopol> oerjan: what's your point? i mean, in this case, there *isn't*
18:01:00 <oklopol> i'm sure you have a point, i just don't get it
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18:01:31 <oklopol> asiekierka: they don't exist yet
18:03:58 <oklopol> the problem is roughly that A = B ^ C, where C isn't set, doesn't find some value of C that when multiplied by B becomes A, because we're not actually doing multiplication, it's just the and happens to perform it for independent variables
18:04:05 <oklopol> there are other ways to satisfy that.
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18:05:10 <oklopol> asiekierka: noprob is about 3-sat
18:05:18 <oklopol> but i'm talking about the wimpmode here
18:05:35 <asiekierka> Hm. If i knew what 3-sat is, i MAY have found it interesting
18:05:36 <oklopol> the wimpmode is about satisfying boolean expressions with probabilities
18:06:22 <oklopol> good point, we should continue the conversation there
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18:08:50 <oklopol> asiekierka: just thinking out loud.
18:09:25 <oerjan> that was _not_ meant to be a channel name
18:09:32 <oklopol> oerjan: i know, it was a joke.
18:10:06 <oklopol> i remember your teachings.
18:10:43 <oklopol> oerjan: but, what was your point about the independence?
18:10:50 <GregorR> oerjan: Buy Worshr... Worchrshrshr ... buy the sauce you can't pronounce! (Clip of bottle slammed on a table)
18:11:12 <asiekierka> I wonder if 0 and ENTER count as 2 commands
18:11:58 <oerjan> oklopol: i thought you were assuming you could use ^ for multiplication even if they weren't. but i see you have thought about it.
18:12:25 <oklopol> well yeah i'm just considering the simple case where they are independent
18:12:31 <asiekierka> Oklopol: Can you give out Underload lessons for me, too?
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18:13:05 <oklopol> asiekierka: it was ais523_|direct who showed *me* things about unlambda, not the other way
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18:13:32 <oerjan> underload is _not_ unlambda
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18:13:55 <oklopol> WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP MAKING THE SAME MISTAKES
18:14:02 <oklopol> WHAT A BUNCH OF STINKING IDIOTS
18:14:11 <oerjan> BECAUSE YOU CAN ONLY THINK IN TWO-LETTER WORDS
18:14:24 <asiekierka> oklopol: I don't use unlambda, so well, duh
18:14:34 <ehird> BECAUSE THEY WEAR CAPES
18:14:36 <ehird> YOU RUINED MY RHYME
18:14:42 <ehird> ASIEKIERKA: PLEASE USE CAPS IN FUTURE
18:14:47 <oklopol> oerjan: when they are *not* independent, it's more complicated, of course, but getting something trivial like this to work might be helpful before that.
18:15:02 <oklopol> asiekierka: i meant underload.
18:15:17 <asiekierka> OKAY, EHIRD, BUT EVERY WORD AFTER THIS IN CAPS IS MADE BY A CRYBABY AND SUCKS
18:15:25 <oerjan> oklopol: the quantum collapsed in the right direction this time
18:15:42 <oerjan> asiekierka: YOU'RE MEAN
18:15:46 <ehird> asiekierka: rules only take effect if they're in the topic
18:15:56 <ehird> <asiekierka> And so
18:15:59 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I hate how, no matter what concept of programming you follow, there's always a nasty corner :P | you can't use caps.
18:16:18 <oerjan> optbot, why hast thou forsaken us!
18:16:19 <ais523> ehird: you have to restart it manually
18:16:27 -!- optbot has joined.
18:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | with the most significant bit of the result being the AND of the most and least significant bits.
18:16:42 <ais523> neither optbot nor thutubot is in the startup scripts
18:16:42 <optbot> ais523: that's the idea
18:16:47 <ais523> oklopol: yes, and I said it, almost certainly
18:16:47 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | with the most significant bit of the result being the AND of the most and least significant bits | type in caps or die | who changes the topic is a crybaby, except asiekierka.
18:16:53 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | The definition for obscenity is fairly loose..
18:17:15 <oklopol> optbot is a baby, technically, as are most bots
18:17:15 <optbot> oklopol: DDoS Condition detected!
18:17:40 <asiekierka> optbot: you're a crybaby now, are you happy
18:17:40 <optbot> asiekierka: every argument to EVERYTHING is a thunk
18:18:07 <asiekierka> ais523: Could you please teach me underload? I know the commands, how to output text but not anything else
18:18:12 <oerjan> haskell haskell haskell
18:18:21 <ais523> there's a lot of demand for learning underload atm, it seems
18:18:26 <ais523> asiekierka: do you know how to do an infinite loop
18:18:31 <ais523> maybe I should get oklopol to teach you that
18:18:42 <ais523> do you know why that works?
18:18:51 <oerjan> ais523: but he'll just ask asiekierka to ask you, and then... oh no
18:19:04 <ais523> what about a finite loop?
18:19:11 <ais523> how would you print 64 copies of x, for instance?
18:19:26 <asiekierka> Hmm, i don't know lambda/underload calculations yet
18:19:41 <ais523> +ul ((x)S):*:*:*:*:*:*^
18:19:41 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
18:20:01 <oklopol> +ul (::::****):* ((x)S) ~^
18:20:06 <ais523> +ul (::::****):*((x)S)~^
18:20:15 <ais523> +ul (::::****):*((x)S)~^^
18:20:33 <ais523> and you aren't allowed whitespace in Underload, probably I should change that at some point though
18:20:45 <oklopol> oh, because just applying the number
18:20:55 <ais523> no, it just gives lots of copies of the code to print
18:21:03 <ais523> then you need a second ^ to actually run it
18:21:23 <ais523> oerjan: that isn't applying a number
18:21:36 <ais523> +ul ((Not even here?)S)(:*)^
18:21:43 <ais523> and as you can see nothing happened
18:21:43 <oklopol> ais523: he meant whitespace
18:21:46 <ais523> +ul ((Not even here?)S)(:*)^^
18:21:57 <ais523> oh, you're allowed whitespace if you don't try to run it
18:22:29 * ais523 wonders why there's a colon in that error message
18:22:57 <ais523> it means the : command was trying to run on an empty stack
18:23:30 <asiekierka> I must check what was the discarding command, again
18:23:47 <ais523> discards the top stack element
18:24:32 <ais523> relatively hard, but not too long
18:24:41 <ais523> the trick is to start with the nonexistent number !!()()
18:24:51 <ais523> and sorry, I spoiled slightly too quickly
18:24:56 <ais523> but I won't give away the rest
18:25:04 <ais523> +ul (:*(Looping... )S):^
18:25:10 <ais523> +ul (:*(Looping... )S^):^
18:25:14 <ais523> +ul (:(Looping... )S^):^
18:25:15 <thutubot> Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... Looping... ...too much output!
18:25:16 <oklopol> ais523: spoiling is actually one of your things when it comes to teaching
18:25:42 <asiekierka> You don't concatenate, because it overflows the stack, but it still works.
18:26:02 <ais523> asiekierka: what's the * for?
18:26:10 <ais523> it's not at all obvious what you're trying to concatenat
18:27:10 <asiekierka> It duplicates at the beginning to have what to duplicate from
18:28:16 <asiekierka> Now, tell me how do you use numbers in Underload, please.
18:29:25 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
18:29:34 <oerjan> +ul ()(:~(*)*:( )*S~^):^
18:29:35 <thutubot> :~(*)*:( )*S~^* :~(*)*:( )*S~^** :~(*)*:( )*S~^*** :~(*)*:( )*S~^**** :~(*)*:( )*S~^***** :~(*)*:( )*S~^****** :~(*)*:( )*S~^******* :~(*)*:( )*S~^******** ...too much output!
18:29:55 <ehird> that is some nice output
18:30:21 <oerjan> +ul ()(~(*)*:( )*S~:^):^
18:30:22 <thutubot> * ** *** **** ***** ****** ******* ******** ********* ********** *********** ************ ************* ************** *************** **************** ...too much output!
18:30:31 <ais523> ugh, connection dropped
18:30:39 <asiekierka> Now, tell me how do you use numbers in Underload, please.
18:30:39 <ais523> do I have to check logs, or will someone tell me what it was?
18:30:43 <ais523> ah, a nice simple increment loop
18:30:45 <ais523> presumably that was oklopol?
18:30:48 <asiekierka> and oerjan did +ul ()(:~(*)*:( )*S~^):^
18:31:10 <asiekierka> i did know this, but couldn't recall it... quite
18:31:18 <ais523> basically, 0 means "make 0 copies of the TOS"
18:31:23 <ais523> 1 means "make 1 copy of the TOS"
18:31:26 <ais523> 2 means "make 2 copies of the TOS"
18:33:44 <oerjan> why not, it's definitely on topic
18:34:48 <oerjan> +ul (*)(~:*:( )*S~:^):^
18:34:49 <thutubot> ** **** ******** **************** ******************************** **************************************************************** ...too much output!
18:35:32 <ais523> oerjan: what were you trying to do?
18:35:46 <oerjan> powers of two, but missed the initial *
18:36:45 <oerjan> +ul (*)(~:( )*S:*~:^):^
18:36:46 <thutubot> * ** **** ******** **************** ******************************** **************************************************************** ...too much output!
18:39:12 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:39:32 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:40:35 <ais523> asiekierka: that'll need an output command somewhere
18:42:58 <oerjan> +ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
18:42:59 <thutubot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/******************************************************* ...too much output!
18:43:09 <ais523> oerjan: didn't you just copy that from the wiki?
18:43:50 <oerjan> sometimes copying gets the final newline even when it doesn't look that way
18:46:55 -!- sebbu has joined.
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18:53:58 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
18:58:02 <ais523> oerjan: implementing an increment?
18:59:50 -!- olsner has joined.
19:02:55 <ais523> +ul (:*)(~(:)~*(*)*:(x)~^S~:^):^
19:02:56 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
19:03:03 <ais523> +ul (:*)(~(:)~*(*)*:(x)~^S(/)S~:^):^
19:03:03 <thutubot> xxx/xxxx/xxxxx/xxxxxx/xxxxxxx/xxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
19:03:39 <ais523> the problem with what you were doing is that the copy of the function ended up on top of your counter
19:03:46 <ais523> so I added a couple of ~
19:03:56 <ais523> to put the copy of the function below the counter during the body of the loop
19:04:01 <ais523> and back on top again to reloop at the end
19:04:05 <ais523> so missed it by 2 chars
19:04:23 <asiekierka> So i'm beginning grasping underload, it seems
19:05:17 <ais523> ok, I'll shut up for a bit
19:07:43 <asiekierka> Ok, that's adding 3 with 2, but it's 3+1 then
19:08:25 <ais523> asiekierka: ::: is not a number
19:08:39 <ais523> you've split the ::: from the ***?
19:09:22 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
19:09:41 <oklopol> +ul (::::****)()~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!)~^(x)~^^
19:10:06 <oklopol> and no help or i shall swat
19:10:25 <oklopol> (i haven't been figuring it out this long, was watching friends)
19:10:42 <oerjan> do your friends approve of your watching?
19:13:10 <asiekierka> +ul (::**)(:::)~*(***)*(this stops the editing part)!(:)~*(*)*(x)~^S
19:13:53 <asiekierka> Does anyone need help with grasping it?
19:13:59 <ais523> I think I know how it works
19:14:01 <oklopol> +ul (::::****)()~:(:)~^~(*)~^(!)~***(x)~^^
19:14:31 <asiekierka> +ul (::**)(:::)~*(***)*(:)~*(*)*(x)~^S
19:14:32 <ais523> asiekierka: yes, that's used for comments
19:14:41 <ehird> asiekierka: ais523 invented underload
19:14:45 <ais523> also it's common to use commented-out newlines
19:15:26 <asiekierka> Now i see why you know every thing about it
19:16:03 <asiekierka> I only hate one thing about Underload: It isn't sufficent to make an IRCbot!
19:16:38 <oklopol> okay i officially suck at this. i actually had a large semantical error in that prog.
19:16:48 <oklopol> but, i have it now, except not yet on code
19:17:02 <asiekierka> You should make underload, but with input
19:17:17 <asiekierka> But you don't have ways to process in... too much complication!
19:17:27 <asiekierka> But you don't have ways to process inp ...too much complication!
19:18:29 <asiekierka> ::::::****** ::** :* ::::**** ::** !() ::::::::******** ::** ::::**** :*
19:18:45 <oklopol> +ul (::::****):(:)~^(!())*~(*)~^*(xS)~^^
19:19:20 <asiekierka> Error: Unrecognized Command in the debugger
19:19:41 <oklopol> +ul (::::****):(:)~^(!())*~(*)~^*((x)S)~^^
19:20:07 <asiekierka> since it basically does nothing in something
19:20:12 <ais523> btw, I also wrote both the debugger, and Thutubot
19:20:42 <oklopol> +ul (::::****):(:)~^(!())*~(*)~^*S
19:21:01 <asiekierka> ais523, i'm making a new religion, just for you
19:21:07 <ais523> oklopol: in other words, 5, just like your input was
19:21:19 <oklopol> +ul (::::****):(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*S
19:21:29 <oklopol> +ul (::::****):(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*(x)~^S
19:22:11 * oerjan swats asiekierka back to the ground ----###
19:22:28 <asiekierka> +ul (not like it'd execute, but hey)S----###
19:22:28 <thutubot> not like it'd execute, but hey
19:22:57 <oklopol> asiekierka: considering how much i've played with esolangs, it would've been quite weird if you had beaten me imo
19:23:00 <ais523> oklopol: is that 5-1 you just did?
19:23:16 <oerjan> +ul (<CTCP>ACTION tests something<CTCP>)S
19:23:23 <oklopol> +ul (::::****)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)^(x)~^S
19:23:54 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(:::***)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^(x)~^S
19:23:56 <ais523> asiekierka: QUIT isn't a CTCP
19:24:00 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(::::***)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^(x)~^S
19:24:26 <ais523> +ul (<CTCP>VERSION<CTCP>)S
19:24:32 <oklopol> asiekierka: oh, right, that actually is possible :P
19:24:36 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(::::****)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^(x)~^S
19:24:45 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::*********)(::::****)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^(x)~^S
19:25:01 <oklopol> subtraction, although that's not really a feat
19:25:04 <ais523> I think you officially win that contest
19:25:38 <ais523> now, the way I did divmod in my base-10 program was utterly different from that
19:26:09 -!- oerjan has quit ("Now bus").
19:27:09 -!- Slereah has joined.
19:27:50 <oklopol> according to the log, took me about 15 minutes to get it
19:27:52 <asiekierka> BONUS POINTS: calculate it your subtraction method
19:27:56 <oklopol> but i wasn't really trying that hard
19:28:43 <asiekierka> I wonder if you can code something in DOBELA
19:29:12 <oklopol> all i can think atm is noprob
19:29:23 <oklopol> and how fucking annoyingly ironic the name is
19:29:45 <ais523> asiekierka: what about me?
19:29:58 <asiekierka> what about you? can you code something in DOBELA
19:30:34 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:30:56 * oklopol wants someone to tell him the truth about noprob
19:31:57 <asiekierka> noprob(lem with making this hard as hell)?
19:33:32 <asiekierka> Hm. I don't know if my esolang can calculate the Fibonacci sequence _easily_
19:33:51 <oklopol> fibs in underload, let's try that
19:34:41 <oklopol> +ul (::::****)((:)~*(*)*)(x)~^S
19:34:45 <asiekierka> You basically have an addition loop (I did it) only different
19:34:47 <oklopol> +ul (::::****)((:)~*(*)*)^(x)~^S
19:34:59 <oklopol> asiekierka: you think i care whether it was done? :D
19:35:46 <ais523> well, you did increment in a loop
19:35:48 <oklopol> +ul (::::****)(:::***)(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)^(x)~^S
19:35:49 <ais523> which isn't quite the same thing
19:36:01 <asiekierka> You can modify the increment value, that's one
19:36:18 <ais523> only if you split the : from the *, which is possible but non-trivial
19:36:23 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
19:37:52 <ais523> n is represented by n-1 :s and n-1 *s
19:38:07 <ais523> then use n to multiply up a : and a *
19:38:17 <ais523> just like it's used to multiply up xs in the standard unary output routine
19:39:20 <asiekierka> only because no-one cares about DOBELA programs
19:39:30 <oklopol> asiekierka: no one cares about most of things.
19:40:40 <oklopol> if you really care whether people care about everything you do, i suggest you either become famous, or find a good psychiatrist
19:40:40 <ais523> hmm... I wonder if I care about most of things
19:40:45 <ais523> it probably depends on what things are
19:40:57 <asiekierka> Oklopol: Nope, but this is my first esolang
19:41:08 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:41:16 <oklopol> asiekierka: well there's been more discussion than on many languages.
19:41:22 <ais523> ehird doesn't seem to believe that random people stop me in the street and say hello
19:41:25 <ais523> but it happened this morning
19:41:52 <oklopol> asiekierka: people have read the spec, and talked about it
19:42:16 <oklopol> but for instance, i doubt anyone even knows what my contribution to the wiki is
19:43:04 <ehird> asiekierka: are you religious? if so, you just called yourself a liar
19:43:13 * ehird disappears in a puff of logic.
19:44:07 * asiekierka takes a spell book and makes ehird reappear
19:46:36 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:48:02 * asiekierka adds (in) before "famous" in ais523's entry
19:49:25 -!- GiveMeMony has joined.
19:52:52 <ais523> just not saying things
19:53:02 <ais523> e's active in at least one other Freenode channel
19:53:21 -!- M0ny has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:54:57 <oklopol> ais523: a <r> is ending execution, and stack is "<r> <1> <2> (TOS)", is there any way to get <r> up from there?
19:55:07 <oklopol> asiekierka: channels can be +s'd
19:55:07 <ais523> asiekierka: there are a lot of secret channels on Freenode
19:55:14 <ais523> because channels are secret by default
19:55:15 <oklopol> didn't you read the rfc ;)
19:55:19 <ais523> and most people never bother to change that
19:55:28 <ais523> oklopol: yes, there is
19:55:37 <ais523> a~a will change <1> <2> into (<2>)(<1>)
19:55:44 <ais523> then * will give you ((<2>)(<1>))
19:55:51 <ais523> you can swap that stack element below <r>
19:56:01 <ais523> and later on, ^ will split (<2>)(<1>) back into <2> <1>
19:58:23 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:58:44 -!- Slereah has joined.
19:59:12 <oklopol> the idea is just to lift them in the string, in which case you can append them to either end
20:00:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
20:01:02 <ais523> oklopol: that sounds vaguely like how it's done, yes
20:01:03 -!- GiveMeMony has changed nick to M0ny.
20:01:32 <oklopol> <r> <1> <2> should be turned to <r> <1> <2> <r>
20:01:42 <oklopol> i first lift 1 and 2 into a string
20:02:35 <oklopol> then, i can either duplicate or append
20:02:39 <oklopol> the problem is i cannot do both
20:02:48 <oklopol> because if i append, i lose <re>
20:03:06 <oklopol> and if i duplicate, i lose the ability to use (<1> <2>)
20:03:09 <ais523> ah, there is a solution, let me try to remember what it is
20:03:51 <oklopol> remembering is inelegant when it comes to programming, mister :D
20:03:52 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:04:12 -!- asiekierka has joined.
20:04:38 <oklopol> ais523: (<1> <2>) <re> (~^)+<re>
20:04:56 <oklopol> the solution is you can modify the thing you recurse to
20:05:08 <ais523> ah yes, that's what it is
20:05:23 <ais523> I've done that loads of times before, for some reason I forgot about it though
20:05:34 <ais523> and you probably mean something other than + there
20:06:09 <oklopol> +ul (this is param 1)(this is param 2)(:S~:S~a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:06:10 <thutubot> this is param 2this is param 1 ...: out of stack!
20:06:22 <oklopol> +ul (:S~:S~a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)(this is param 1)(this is param 2)(:S~:S~a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:06:23 <thutubot> this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1this is param 2this is param 1 ...too much output!
20:11:39 <oklopol> +ul (:Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)(a)(b)(:Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:11:40 <thutubot> baababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababa ...too much output!
20:11:52 <oklopol> +ul (:Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)(a)(b)(:S( )Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:11:53 <thutubot> b aababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababa ...too much output!
20:12:05 <oklopol> +ul (:S( )Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)(a)(b)(:S( )Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:12:06 <thutubot> b a ab aba abaab abaababa abaababaabaab abaababaabaababaababa abaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaab abaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababa abaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaab abaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababaabaababaabaababaababaabaababaababa ...too much output!
20:12:13 <ais523> asiekierka: floods the channel, I think
20:12:15 <fizzie> It makes a sheep-like sound.
20:12:29 <ais523> fibonnaci, but with two different characters
20:12:42 <oklopol> asiekierka: clearer code that way
20:13:17 <oklopol> because i cannot name the addition block, i would have to have that in the code, or somewhere in the stack, both would make it fairly cluttery
20:13:41 -!- Slereah2 has joined.
20:13:52 <oklopol> not that that matters, just thought in this case it's sufficient to make it work conceptually
20:15:54 <oklopol> +ul (:S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)()()(:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:16:00 <asiekierka> +ul (:S( )Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)(a)(a)(:S( )Sa~a~*:^*~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:16:01 <thutubot> a a aa aaa aaaaa aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ...too much output!
20:16:06 <oklopol> +ul (:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)()()(:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:16:43 <oklopol> i didn't actually have any intermediate form, so it's not completely trivial to change the concatenation function
20:16:51 <oklopol> i can't actually *read* underload.
20:17:07 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp oko cho choo
20:17:21 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
20:17:21 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[>[.>]<[<]>]
20:17:25 <oklopol> +ul (:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)()()(:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)^~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:17:40 <oklopol> +ul (:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)^~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)()()(:(x)~^S( )Sa~a~*:^(((:)~*(*)*)~^^)^~^!a~a~*~:(~^)~*^)^
20:17:42 <thutubot> x x xx xxx xxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
20:18:05 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp oko cho choo
20:18:11 <ais523> fungot seems lagged atm
20:18:11 <fungot> ais523: that's the point
20:18:14 <ais523> try not bothering it for a while
20:18:34 <asiekierka> +ul (^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S)S
20:18:34 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S
20:18:34 <fungot> +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S
20:18:35 <thutubot> +ul (^rot26 +ul (+ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S
20:19:09 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:19:10 <asiekierka> +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S
20:19:10 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S
20:19:11 <fungot> +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S
20:19:11 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S
20:19:11 <fungot> +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S
20:19:46 <asiekierka> +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S)S)S
20:19:46 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S)S
20:19:47 <fungot> +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S)S
20:19:47 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S
20:19:47 <fungot> +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S)S
20:19:48 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S
20:19:48 <fungot> +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S)S
20:19:48 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S
20:19:48 <fungot> +ul (^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S)S
20:19:49 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S
20:19:49 <fungot> +ul (^rot26 +ul (hi!)S)S
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20:20:20 <thutubot> ^rot26 +ul (:*) ...: out of stack!
20:20:20 <fungot> +ul (:*) ...: out of stack!
20:22:12 <asiekierka> CONTEST: Write an infinite loop between fungot and thutubot!
20:22:12 <fungot> asiekierka: stalin and larceny used some weird syntax error in it, but the
20:22:21 <ais523> asiekierka: I've done that before
20:22:31 <ais523> in fact, I did a multi-bot infinite loop
20:22:38 <ais523> fungot, thutubot and CO2Bot looped
20:22:39 <fungot> ais523: lots of editors have fully rebindable keys around. i just have to pick *some* ordering for the indices anyway
20:22:45 <ais523> and optbot said something every time round
20:22:45 <optbot> ais523: Look at that incredible string at the end.
20:22:56 <fungot> asiekierka: thanks for the advice. thank you very much
20:22:56 <optbot> asiekierka: That's what my "java" is, but apparently the problem was the .class was compiled with sun-jdk-javac.
20:23:27 <ais523> asiekierka: I don't like infinite loops because someone has to stop them
20:23:44 <ais523> which means quitting thutubot, normally
20:23:49 <ais523> and then I'd have to restart it, which is a pain
20:23:50 <asiekierka> You can just stop execution on thutubotter
20:24:00 <ais523> it's on a different server
20:24:05 <oklopol> i like competitions, i wish someone who was good at esolangs challenged me occasionally.
20:24:19 <ais523> oklopol: maybe I should have an esolang contest with you sometime
20:24:24 <ais523> not right now, though, I'm busy
20:24:39 <asiekierka> <asiekierka> do fungot&optbot&thutubot
20:24:39 <optbot> asiekierka: I know. I read it. I'm a Perl enthusiast, sorry.
20:24:39 <fungot> asiekierka: a checkpoint image, basically.
20:25:05 <oklopol> i'm fairly busy too, millions of pages to read
20:25:09 <optbot> asiekierka: the program would then be first => print "Hello world!"
20:25:10 <optbot> fungot: (Python is pretty crappy too)
20:25:10 <fungot> optbot: and opencroquet too. you probably simply want to use
20:25:10 <optbot> fungot: they're obviously completely different; one is about numbers, and the other is about numbers /and/ symbols
20:25:11 <fungot> optbot: considering how one keeps seeing it in places if it will be
20:25:11 <optbot> fungot: !bf ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++>++++++<<<<-]>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.------------.>+++.<<.+++.------.--------.>+.
20:25:11 <fungot> optbot: there's a second complete set of modern apis and features that toys like python will have the money
20:25:13 <fungot> optbot: mit has ridiculously long hostnames, even respectable people; the part before
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20:25:44 <fungot> asiekierka: i find that my thingy is too slow to me
20:35:14 <fizzie> To get a smaller Wikipedia talk-page sample for fungot training, I decided to take every talk page whose title's crc32 checksum is divisible by 256.
20:35:15 <fungot> fizzie: poof! there go my weekends :)
20:35:37 <ais523> wow... that was really insightful in context
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20:36:12 <fizzie> The first five pages it picked up were 'Aland Islands', 'Ark of the Covenant', 'Commutator', 'Distilling' and 'Feminist Spirituality'.
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20:37:11 <fizzie> Commutator is the only page out of those five that I remember having visited. (And that was very recently.)
20:38:23 <fizzie> I need to do something to the MediaWiki markup before using those dumped-out pages, though.
20:39:31 <fizzie> Assuming the pages whose crc&0xff==0 are a representative sample, I should get something like 20 megs of wiki-text out of it. That's a nice little breakfast for fungot.
20:39:32 <fungot> fizzie: you could have
20:44:45 <asiekierka> fizzie: I must make a bot having all of Wikipedia
20:46:02 <fizzie> http://download.wikimedia.org/ -- though it's a bit big.
20:46:14 <fizzie> Around 8 gigabytes as a bzip2'd XML-dump.
20:46:43 <fizzie> Okay, the archive without user and talk pages is a bit smaller.
20:47:23 <asiekierka> I'm implementing it into a robot-like thing
20:47:30 <asiekierka> hooking up a CPU, an old speech synthesis thing
20:47:41 <asiekierka> To make the worst conversation robot EVER.
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20:50:09 <asiekierka> even with the 08-07-28 version, 7,3GB?
20:51:15 <asiekierka> Ouch, my robot thing will really need a fast hard drive
20:52:06 <asiekierka> Or is there a small conversation-oriented database for bots&such
20:52:08 <fizzie> 64 bits is very much enough to work as offsets into a 7.3-gigabyte file. Although it's 7.3 gigs compressed.
20:52:20 <fizzie> In any case, if you just want the articles, it's only 3.9 gigabytes.
20:53:24 <asiekierka> is there a special conversation database for bots?
20:54:12 <fizzie> If you mean just generic text that can be picked from, I've tried quite a lot of sources in fungot, but so far nothing has worked as well as just IRC logs.
20:54:13 <fungot> fizzie: many thread systems in scheme somewhere? at least it's more interesting make-foo in pure-fp :)
20:54:54 <asiekierka> that would give about the same amount as wikipedia's talk pages
20:55:02 <fizzie> I don't have a handy usenet archive, but I guess selected groups might work reasonably well.
20:55:29 <fizzie> I tried using a thousand transcribed ten-minute telephone conversations, but that wasn't terribly interesting.
20:55:48 <asiekierka> but you can't download the whole Usen---
20:55:57 <asiekierka> Google has the whole usenet mirrored... OR DO THEY
20:56:28 <fizzie> And if you feed the bot books (I've tried a couple of authors) it just speaks like it's reading a book, not like it's speaking.
20:57:06 <fizzie> I am quite certain this "1/256th of Wikipedia talk pages" experiment will be utterly uninteresting too, but who knows.
20:58:39 <fizzie> That's not really a new idea.
20:59:01 <fizzie> Er, it's just fungot. Completely homegrown, completely without any trace of intelligence.
20:59:13 <fizzie> See, even the bot admits it.
21:01:52 <fizzie> I've probably explained most of fungot's insides on the channel -- the stuff's in the logs, but it's not very interesting.
21:01:56 <ehird> It's written in befunge.
21:02:40 <fizzie> To be completely honest, most of the hard work in the babbling is done with boring "real" programming languages.
21:05:34 <fizzie> Heh, it just dumped out "Creation science/Archive 8". I don't envy the bot who's going to have to read all that.
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21:51:51 <AnMaster> ais523, As a native speaker, what would you call it when you wonder if a library can order a book they don't have in stock?
21:51:59 <AnMaster> I'm planning this for semaphores in ATHR
21:52:19 <ais523> is the common name for when you ask one library to borrow from another
21:52:30 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, what if they don't get it from another, but order it from a publisher, say if it is a new one?
21:52:50 <AnMaster> "interlibrary loan" could work too, and probably be better
21:52:57 <ais523> I don't know if there's a single word, you'd be requesting them to order a book, pretty much
21:53:05 <ais523> and I don't think if that abbreviates to one word
21:53:25 <AnMaster> however you will need to set it an advance, to set how many books there are in stock, before using that book
21:53:32 <AnMaster> so I need some good name for that
21:54:53 <AnMaster> also I think I solved the problem of funge space update, not sure how effective it is hm
21:56:01 <fizzie> You can ask the library to make a purchase order for the book. Although usually it's not the customer of the library who can specify how many books they will stock on their shelves. :p
21:57:03 <AnMaster> * Each thread keeps its own copy of bounds. * On write outside current bounds (for a thread), send an async update bounds message to all other threads, and to funge-space thread.
21:57:04 <fizzie> Actually the title of the form us normal people can fill is "acquisition suggestion form".
21:57:35 <fizzie> http://lib.tkk.fi/en/services/remote/wwwforms/acquisition_suggestion.html -- doesn't seem to contain a field for "amount of books", though.
21:58:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, well having several books in stock would be a neat way to integrate semaphores with it
21:58:54 <AnMaster> Slereah, in the library mutex paradigm
21:59:14 <AnMaster> a mutex is called a book, you borrow it to lock it, return it to unlock it
21:59:36 <AnMaster> which is a funge fingerprint for *async* threads
21:59:44 <AnMaster> which I'm speccing and implementing
22:02:09 <fizzie> Well, I think it's reasonable if the metaphorical semantics of your instructions are "ask the library to get N copies of book K"; after all, if there's an out-of-money, I mean, out-of-memory situation they might not concede your request.
22:02:25 <fizzie> You can probably pick the exact words depending on what sort of characters you have still free.
22:05:32 <fizzie> ADEHJKLMOUVXYZ, then... well, O for 'order books' is one possibility. Or that A for 'Acquisition request/suggestion' like they seem to be calling it in our University library.
22:39:24 <AnMaster> night, will work on it tomorrow (I hope)
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23:02:07 <oerjan> if things start too loose, it's probably obscene
23:04:17 <oerjan> <oklopol> oerjan: i hate you
23:04:24 <oerjan> i'm cursed, i tell you, cursed
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00:16:25 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Heh... I'm ganna win this one..
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06:16:25 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | isn't thaat.
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06:37:04 <fizzie> immibis: You were asking about setting the Funge-98 storage offset to an arbitrary value? 0{<y><x>02-u0}$$ -- it uses 'u' to push an arbitrary address for } to pop off; the final $$ gets rid of the pos+delta vector pushed by {.
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06:50:20 <fungot> asiekierka: that part of the def-bf reference implementation, too
06:50:29 <asiekierka> fungot: No, no definitions, are you intelligent?
06:50:29 <fungot> asiekierka: that's not a good day for house, this is even trickier
06:50:42 <asiekierka> so, fungot, intelligence is tricky for you?
06:50:42 <fungot> asiekierka: of course people should prefer fnord software. they should've used gmp
06:50:59 <asiekierka> fungot, intelligence is fnord software? and gmp?
06:50:59 <fungot> asiekierka: ( ( apply xs) ( length fnord))
06:52:37 <asiekierka> hackles - les hack, hels ack!, hak lecs,
06:58:44 * asiekierka dies infinity times until i say "wakeup time"
07:11:05 <immibis> [18:51] <asiekierka> Let's clog cmeme! <!-- is that a pun
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07:17:56 <immibis> because clog and cmeme are both logging bots
07:23:59 <fungot> ab5tract: i sleep 10-12 hours a day but i can't
07:24:17 <fungot> immibis: well turt say it is possible....
07:24:25 <fungot> immibis: and how to classify rest-of-name. this
07:24:27 <fizzie> fungot: Do you dream of fungeoid sheep?
07:24:27 <fungot> fizzie: there isn't a fnord compiler i know of.
07:24:37 <immibis> fungot: Do you dream at all
07:24:38 <fungot> immibis: optimize ( case 1...
07:24:48 <fungot> immibis: ( has anyone messed with the fnord teachpack?), so it sounds like
07:24:59 <immibis> where's it getting its phrases from?
07:25:13 <fizzie> IRC logs of this channel + freenode's #scheme.
07:25:20 <fizzie> Although it doesn't quote directly.
07:25:40 <fizzie> I've tried a couple of other data sources, with various levels of success.
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07:26:12 <fizzie> Next on the TO-DO list are Wikipedia talk pages (I just extracted 1/256th of them -- around 9000 pages -- and would just need to clean the wiki-markup out of the way.)
07:28:18 <fizzie> So far there's been a Pratchett mode (a dozen or so Discworld books), a Charles Darwin mode (similar amount of his books), a Lovecraft mode (ditto), one based on a thousand transcribed ten-minute telephone conversations, and the politician mode based on European Parliament speeches.
07:29:26 <fizzie> The Europarl thing was a great success in a way, it babbled out completely content-free but certainly impressive-sounding text. Not very amusing, but...
07:29:46 <fizzie> fungot: Act like a politician, please.
07:29:46 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, that we still have three very important reports to deal with all human beings to drugs and arms trafficking.
07:30:09 <fungot> ab5tract: madam president, ladies and gentlemen, of the fact that here in parliament to certain acts and decisions that were taken by the bureau, then it poses a very urgent task, that of the structural policies and the stability pact is dead or not, will the commissioner make this announcement this evening a three-way dialogue is to define the rights of the committee of the columbian communist youth and representative of a eur
07:30:29 <fizzie> Oh, and it starts just about every sentence with "mr/madam president" since it's one complete statement/speech it's using.
07:30:40 <fizzie> Also tends to ramble for so long that the IRC line length limits cut it off.
07:30:43 <immibis> fungot: This sentence is too long because this sentence is too long so Justin killed and this sentence is too long so this sentence is too long
07:30:43 <fungot> immibis: mr president, i am the spokesman, will be allowed to be, but that parliament has now made a couple of months have passed since these proposals were adopted.
07:30:59 <immibis> the phrases don't make that much sense...
07:31:11 <ab5tract> fizzie: you should give it a terrence mckenna mode
07:31:12 <fizzie> I'm not sure the source material makes very much sense either.
07:31:29 <fizzie> All these modes are based on stuff I had readily available.
07:31:49 <fizzie> fungot: Try Lovecraft next.
07:31:49 <fungot> fizzie: facts concerning the priory. when i was inside i saw that my host was sitting there with fnord stiffness in the dark.
07:31:56 <immibis> fizzie: for wikipedia talk mode, just leave the markup in :)
07:32:01 <fizzie> The Lovecraft stuff is full of fnords.
07:32:07 <fungot> immibis: my first vivid impression of my own will at most lead only to suffocation when my air is gone."
07:32:19 <immibis> fungot: how long will that take?
07:32:19 <fungot> immibis: " you came through the devil's woods last night and alone?" the old man lapsed into a fnord chair, he commenced to eye me intently.
07:32:22 <lament> why are there fnords in lovecraft?
07:32:41 <immibis> fungot: where are the devils woods?
07:32:41 <fungot> immibis: that such regions in truth existed, seemed amply clear from many things. faint cries and groans unmistakably came up now and then my touch would reveal a doorless intersecting passage, and i believe i may rely on my judgement of men enough to have you hear the record i got. i have seen a symbol of conquest over the old gods and beings of th, and as i writhe in my guilty agony, frantic to save the city from their accurs
07:32:55 <fizzie> lament: It maps all words that occur only once to a special "unknown" token, and then expands that to "fnord" when textifying.
07:33:02 <fizzie> lament: Apparently Lovecraft was fond of rare words.
07:33:11 <ab5tract> fizzie: would add a mode if i submit a tar of terrence's writing?
07:33:29 <fungot> lament: but now that he was overcome with the vastness, profundity, and fnord.
07:33:54 <fungot> ab5tract: fnord at four dr. willett recalled and recorded his conversation of that afternoon is due to the lack of fnord fnord and fnord in the
07:34:53 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, do the telephone talk now.
07:34:53 <fungot> fizzie: yeah i call them mindless games because i don't
07:35:10 <fizzie> That... might've been a commentary on this whole babbling thing.
07:35:12 <ab5tract> fungot: you said what they said you said
07:35:16 <immibis> and its written entirely in befunge? impressive.
07:35:41 <fizzie> Well, the language model building and text tokenization is a mix of Perl, C++ and now Python.
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07:36:07 <fizzie> But the part that generates a random-ish string of tokens based on the model, and converts that to text, is Befunge. As is all the other IRC stuff.
07:36:49 <immibis> so the python/perl/c++ program reads input and builds the language model and word list?
07:37:37 <fizzie> Yes. The Funge-98 program uses the FILE fingerprint to seek around the tree-structured n-gram model (it's something like 200 megabytes for the IRC logs).
07:39:09 <immibis> why not have it ignore rare words, btw, to avoid saying fnord all the time?
07:39:24 <fungot> immibis: actually i mean watched you know
07:39:33 <fungot> immibis: uh members of the couple can be employed right um
07:39:43 <fungot> immibis: yeah i i'm on line like two or three
07:39:59 <immibis> fungot: are you written in only a few lines
07:39:59 <fungot> immibis: when i smoked other people's smoke didn't bother me
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07:40:20 <immibis> at least that kind of makes sense
07:40:34 <fizzie> I'm not sure how he's been smoking anything; I certainly haven't noticed any smoke in the room the computer is in, and he can't really step outside for a while.
07:41:20 <fizzie> fungot: When have you been smoking, huh?
07:41:20 <fungot> fizzie: ( ( hm)) and they were asking
07:41:34 <fizzie> fungot: Stop dodging the question.
07:41:34 <fungot> fizzie: to where i live
07:42:03 <fizzie> fungot: I know where you live; it's my apartment. At least don't smoke inside there!
07:42:11 <fizzie> I'm not sure I trust that.
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07:42:37 <immibis> fungot: What part of you is smoking?
07:42:44 <fungot> immibis: it'd be neat to see and for me it's stuff like that when my mother and my grandmother uh she taught me a little to far didn't they
07:42:58 <immibis> fungot: fizzie already told you not to avoid the question
07:42:59 <fungot> immibis: twenty thirteen and four a big gap
07:43:16 <fungot> immibis: fuel gasoline and they do
07:43:27 <immibis> fungot: yeah... you've been smoking gasoline?
07:43:38 <immibis> i think its in ignore-me mode'
07:43:49 <fizzie> Yeah, it's four replies per person consecutively.
07:44:03 <fizzie> Based on the output, I'd say it's more likely he's been sniffing gasoline than smoking it.
07:44:18 <fizzie> fungot: Not too many brain cells left in there, eh?
07:44:18 <fungot> fizzie: restaurant laughter and we
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07:46:29 <immibis> fungot: you should be careful smoking gasoline, you might burn down fizzie's apartment
07:46:30 <fungot> immibis: yeah everybody already so how are you)) to talk to
07:46:43 <immibis> fungot: er, pretty good. Now back on the subject.
07:46:44 <fungot> immibis: ( ( no laughter it laughter)) babies
07:46:55 <immibis> where do all the brackets come from?
07:47:10 <fizzie> It's a notation in the telephone transcriptions.
07:47:23 <fizzie> They use (( foo )) when the transcriber isn't quite sure what was said.
07:47:45 <fizzie> Also the "noise" and "laughter" things used to be [noise] and [laughter] but the bot apparently ignores [].
07:47:48 <immibis> fungot: you might even blow up your fnord supply
07:47:49 <fungot> immibis: ( ( how are ya))
07:48:01 <fungot> immibis: at any age should they read it out loud and i'm like
07:48:10 <immibis> fungot: yes. Stop smoking gasolinwe.
07:48:16 <fizzie> (And the extra spaces in "( ( " are a bug in the funge code I really should fix.)
07:59:08 <fizzie> Uh.. where have the pratchett files gone?
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08:00:16 <fizzie> Well, I'll just rebuild it.
08:01:17 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, do you feel Discworldy now?
08:01:17 <fungot> fizzie: the sergeant scratched his head.
08:01:37 <immibis> if i have a fingerprint which uses C and R (call it AAAA) and one that uses C and R and W (call it TEST) is there a way to have the C from AAAA but the R and W from TEST? (in funge 98)
08:01:48 <immibis> fungot: What is your name?
08:01:48 <fungot> immibis: he half ran, half limped with one squawking foot past the stalls.
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08:02:11 <immibis> fungot: Welcome to the discworld.
08:02:11 <fungot> immibis: " so put all this wizard nonsense out of your fnord be baked hard while others'd still be green.'
08:02:26 <fizzie> immibis: You can use the FING fingerprint to swap/copy/delete instructions.
08:02:32 <immibis> fungot: i haven't got an fnord
08:02:32 <fungot> immibis: he had set up an easel. " i thought it ended just as it did on the day.
08:03:44 <immibis> so: load FING, load TEST, map R to X, load AAAA, and use X instead of TEST's R?
08:04:05 <fizzie> I think you could, for example, load AAAA, then TEST, then FING, and then use 'CY to delete the C semantics loaded from TEST which would leave AAAA's C visible.
08:04:20 <fizzie> But you can remap to some other letter too if you think you have a use for TEST's C too.
08:05:20 <immibis> also have you noticed in rc/funge, 6k will actually execute the next instruction 7 times?
08:06:13 <fizzie> I don't think I've used 'k' in fungot. There are some RC/Funge-98 bugs (one or two) I've noticed when writing the bot, should probably have reported them via email back when I still remembered them.
08:06:13 <fungot> fizzie: " oh, a nice day, was sitting up in bed.
08:06:37 <immibis> fungot: where do you live?
08:06:37 <fungot> immibis: ' ronnie?' she said. " by the same teachers. but an fnord pair of nostril holes at the top of the steps leading up to some bronze doors, you say?
08:06:59 <immibis> fungot: yes, the bronze doors were nostril holes. makes perfect sense.
08:07:00 <fungot> immibis: people were disappearing and the first lot should be in a mood to confront vorbis there and then..
08:07:36 <immibis> fungot: ah so the first lot of people who disappeared wanted to confront vorbis?
08:07:37 <fungot> immibis: it had two streets in the sense of something. at the moment
08:08:27 <AnMaster_> <immibis> also have you noticed in rc/funge, 6k will actually execute the next instruction 7 times?
08:08:49 <AnMaster_> since it doesn't, and shouldn't, skip the next instruction
08:09:01 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster.
08:09:10 <AnMaster> (who wrote the funge-98 spec after all)
08:09:52 <fizzie> I guess the spec doesn't say it should skip it. It just makes the 0 argument ("Note that some instructions don't make much sense within the context of k unless you include zero as one of the possibilities for how many times the instruction is repeated. For example, no matter how many times after the first time k execute ^, the result is the same. However, you may pass a zero count to k, and the ^ instruction will not be executed; this can be a valuable behaviou
08:09:53 <AnMaster> that is, unless it would be executed 0 times
08:10:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, no it doesn't, but the official catseye diagnosis did
08:11:21 <fizzie> That's very strange. I would've assumed 1kX to execute X only once.
08:12:41 <fizzie> It also makes it harder to use k$ to get rid of things on stack that have the format "x1 x2 .. xn n" since zero needs to be special-cased. Aw.
08:14:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, well in funge-108 k will skip over next instruction if it was the one it iterated on
08:14:59 <AnMaster> meaning you have to check if delta and pos are the same at the end of k
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08:20:00 <fizzie> Heh, apparently at least in RC/Funge-98 you can use "k#" to achieve something very close to "1-j".
08:20:51 <fizzie> Oh, _that's_ why EXEC has that K instruction; "what k should have been". I remember wondering about that.
08:21:27 <AnMaster> k searches past spaces and ;; pairs
08:21:47 <fizzie> Yes, which is why it'll "execute" the jumping, multiple times.
08:22:17 <fizzie> What it seems to do is to just add n*delta to the IP's position, which is initially at the 'k'.
08:22:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, as for K in EXEC, that fingerprint was added after long discussion over how k should work between me, Deewiant and Mike Riley
08:23:10 <AnMaster> and k in funge-108 mode in cfunge should work like that I believe
08:29:15 <AnMaster> immibis, C. Pressy suggested that name, and yes it is a draft I'm working on
08:29:56 <immibis> [20:29] ->> AnMaster is away: sleeping
08:30:11 <AnMaster> immibis, just forgot to change it
08:30:13 <AnMaster> http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/funge108.pdf
08:30:22 -!- immibis has changed nick to immibis[A].
08:30:28 -!- immibis[A] has changed nick to immibis.
08:30:28 * immibis is no longer away : Gone for X minutes and Y seconds
08:31:26 <AnMaster> * [AnMaster] is away (may be away)
08:31:56 <AnMaster> anyway I'm out for an hour or two. Cya
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09:57:15 <fizzie> Heh, ran the fungot training on the completely unstripped Wikipedia data (because I don't have time to handle the markup right now); it will probably sound really messed-up.
09:57:15 <fungot> fizzie: i randomly hit all keys until i knew what a raytracer was.
09:57:30 <fizzie> fungot: Does your brain feel scrambled now?
09:57:30 <fungot> fizzie: " his birth name. you can find an appropriate place in the article
09:57:43 <fizzie> fungot: That was surprisingly text-like.
09:57:43 <fungot> fizzie: ' ' ' :image:faith yang dame cover.jpg'" is being used on this article.
09:58:04 <fizzie> fungot: Uh, right... what article?
09:58:04 <fungot> fizzie: the number of speakers, whereas now it actually is due to to using that version of the enfield 8000 car to greece was
09:58:58 <fizzie> That's surprisingly legible.
10:20:01 <fizzie> fungot: Why are you not quoting the talk page signatures?
10:20:01 <fungot> fizzie: ' ' ' this'" wikipedia article constitutes fair use. in addition to the wikipedia:image copyright tags/ fair useboilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with wp:fufair use.
10:20:18 <fungot> fizzie: yes, according to the rules you fnord. user:stephen turnerstephen turner ( user talk:stephen turnertalk) 18:07, 18 december 2006 ( utc
10:20:34 <fizzie> fungot: Hey, that was a signature.
10:20:35 <fungot> fizzie: http://commons.wikimedia.org/ wiki/ fnord,
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11:58:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, odd there wasn't a lot of === and such
11:59:24 <AnMaster> fungot, where was the wiki markup
11:59:24 <fungot> AnMaster: so let's put it up as im in a fnord
11:59:25 <fizzie> Those probably get stripped out by the script.
11:59:55 <fizzie> It keeps only the punctuation I've provided names for, like parentheses and commas and such.
12:00:21 <fizzie> Yes, although I should really fix it manually to handle [[link|title]] and things.
12:00:27 <fungot> AnMaster: in the movie, he emphatically claims that he was suspect in this crime along with his brother. the case is made that is not the case.
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12:01:13 <fizzie> I don't think there's any real specification for the MediaWiki markup except "whatever it is our PHP parser does".
12:01:23 <fizzie> fungot: What movie was that?
12:01:23 <fungot> fizzie: as far as i can. three specific comments:
12:01:49 <fizzie> The conversation is really unfocused, which is understandable given that it's a really random selection of stuff.
12:02:03 <fizzie> Maybe I should've selected a couple of categories and use all talk pages in those.
12:04:26 -!- moozilla has joined.
12:08:42 <fizzie> It keeps talking about fair use of images a lot.
12:16:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | there is....
12:18:27 <fizzie> optbot: There is... what?
12:18:27 <optbot> fizzie: i guess i'll give the new parser, then, since otherwise my paste has been a waste of bytes
12:29:53 <fungot> AnMaster: miss scarlet? my recollection is of all the important relevant facts on the topic of graphic photos within the greater context of its coverage of activism for specific causes. the pictures of pro-life and pro-choice arguments.
12:30:13 -!- LinuS has joined.
12:30:30 <Slereah> A pro-choice argument picture would be a picture of you.
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12:41:37 <fizzie> That was quite a zing indeed.
12:41:46 <fizzie> fungot: Do you feel offended?
12:41:46 <fungot> fizzie: fnord 28 aos sin fnord fnord fnord fnord fnord
12:41:58 <fizzie> I don't quite know how to interpret that.
12:45:07 <ehird> <Slereah> A pro-choice argument picture would be a picture of you
12:45:14 <ehird> IF FUNGOT HAD A PICTURE
12:45:18 <ehird> fizzie: Plz draw picture of fungot
12:45:18 <fungot> ehird: i found the book i thought would have a range of different meanings depending on context, including variations by academic discipline and cultural setting, among others.
13:11:40 <oklopol> 22:52… asiekierka: which can be up to 140gigs or so
13:11:40 <oklopol> 22:52… asiekierka: I'd need a gigantic hard drive
13:12:03 <ehird> with liek 100 free
13:12:30 <LinuS> if you don't have any porn 100gb is gigantic
13:13:30 <ehird> i'll bet £1,000,000 that asiekierka doesn't have any porn
13:16:17 <fizzie> I was about to comment about the gigantic-ness of it, but thought it unnecessary. And besides, 140 gigs *is* gig-antic.
13:16:55 <AnMaster> I have 6 gb free. And no porn.
13:17:00 <fizzie> Still, I don't see why the HD would have to be particularly *fast* if you need a random line out of it; it's not like you'd have to read it all.
13:17:08 <ehird> AnMaster_: I would have also bet £1,000,000 on you not having any porn.
13:17:19 <ehird> If only someone was stupid enough to take these bets so I could be rich.
13:18:09 <AnMaster> also what was these 140 GB about?
13:18:11 <fizzie> There's 482 GB (out of 600 GB) free on my raid-1 /space partition; and 20 GB (out of 233 GB) in /home. I refuse to comment on any porn I may or may not have.
13:18:28 <fizzie> AnMaster: Uncompressed wikipedia dump. I'm not sure how large it really is, but that's a reasonable estimate, I guess.
13:18:36 <ehird> Wait. ENKI-][ == hakware?
13:18:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, does that include history or just last revision?
13:19:08 <fizzie> s/600/700/ up there, typoed.
13:19:09 <ehird> a wikipedia dump is about 2gb
13:19:16 <ehird> including full revisions, iirc
13:19:18 <fizzie> I think the 140 GB dump is the one with all revisions.
13:19:29 <ehird> images would likely be a few TB
13:19:37 <fizzie> It's already 8 gigabytes bzip2'ed with only the last revision (but including user and talk pages).
13:19:38 <AnMaster> also fizzie downloaded an 8 gb dump iirc
13:19:42 <ehird> AnMaster_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download
13:19:48 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download
13:19:55 <AnMaster> why do you keep saying AnMaster_?
13:19:56 <ehird> <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download
13:20:02 <AnMaster> my client suggests I'm AnMaster
13:20:08 <ehird> AnMaster_ is in here.
13:20:12 <ehird> And my client completes it as AnMaster_ first.
13:20:25 <fizzie> I don't see an AnMaster_ here either.
13:20:28 <AnMaster> should report the issue to freenode staff then ehird
13:20:35 <ehird> Well, it claims you're offline, despite being in here.
13:20:36 <AnMaster> after you checked it isn't just your client
13:20:40 <ehird> So that's a delicious client bug.
13:20:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Hi, welcome to 3 seconds ago.
13:20:58 <ehird> Currently Wikipedia does not allow or provide facilities to download all Images
13:20:58 <ehird> As of May 17, 2007, Wikipedia disabled or neglected all viable bulk downloads of images including torrent trackers. Therefore, there is no way to download image dumps other than scraping Wikipedia pages up or using Wikix, which converts a database dump into a series of scripts to fetch the images.
13:21:07 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> after you checked it isn't just your client
13:21:08 <AnMaster> <ehird> Well, it claims you're offline, despite being in here.
13:21:12 <ehird> heh: [[As of March 24, 2008, using a cable modem, the entire set of Wikipedia images can be downloaded in about 96 hours using this program (420 GB as of 3/24/08).]]
13:21:21 <ehird> AnMaster: I said that before you on my end.
13:21:34 <ehird> Yours was a few sceonds later for me.
13:21:48 <AnMaster> ehird, so, well your comment makes no sense on irc
13:22:07 <ehird> I can trivially talk about the relative times that I received.
13:22:16 <ehird> I am not psychic. I cannot tell if there is large server lag.
13:22:51 <ehird> Since when did you need to be?
13:23:07 <AnMaster> ehird, since you implied that I should have read a message before it arrived on my end
13:23:39 <ehird> I did not know there was large server lag.
13:23:50 <ehird> Therefore, since your message came 3 or so seconds later, it was reasonable to refer to it in the past.
13:24:59 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway it is odd that your client didn't see a part or nick change
13:25:09 <ehird> I am using a bouncer.
13:25:22 <ehird> It likely didn't sent the proper quit message, or something.
13:25:23 <AnMaster> 09:09:00 I changed nick from AnMaster_ to AnMaster
13:25:29 <ehird> But when I do a whois it rightly tells me it's offline.
13:25:46 <ehird> I am not particularly interested in the time.
13:25:56 <AnMaster> well just telling it was a nick change, not a quit
13:26:15 <AnMaster> AnMaster would have quit before that (time out)
13:26:41 <fizzie> fungot: Say something interesting to distract those two from their going-nowhere conversation.
13:26:41 <fungot> fizzie: you need fnord 02:18, 13 june 2008 ( utc
13:27:02 <fizzie> Oh. Well, I don't have any fnords. :/
13:27:24 <fungot> AnMaster: does it really add to general information? some more germane questions the section might answer:
13:27:36 <fungot> AnMaster: video on demand
13:33:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, this language model for fungot is quite interesting actually
13:33:28 <fungot> AnMaster: 17. institute of home science ( 1980), basic sciences ( 1981). fnord
13:33:45 <fungot> AnMaster: 11. so the fnord fnord
13:34:11 <ehird> AnMaster: it sjust a markov chain
13:34:21 <ehird> me and oklopol wrote them a lot a while back, they're like 30 lines
13:34:22 <ehird> including irc code
13:34:38 <ehird> well, it's not "quite interesting", really
13:35:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean this is more interesting than when he loaded the telephone convos
13:35:28 <ehird> that'd be "dataset", then
13:35:32 <ehird> not "language model"
13:40:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I define "language model" to mean "dataset" using be (not become) ;P
13:41:00 <fizzie> Well, it's a language model I built from a particular set of data.
13:42:26 <fizzie> The speech-recognition terminology I'm most familiar with calls a particular set of n-grams "a language model".
13:42:52 <AnMaster> well then it was the right word I guess
13:43:18 <fizzie> I guess it's an issue of definition; you could argue that it'ss the algorithm that's more like "a model of language", and the data it's now running with is just one instance of it.
13:43:23 <oklopol> 108 isn't n-dimensional :<
13:43:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, and? It would break too much stuff
13:43:44 <AnMaster> you can extend it to n dimensions
13:43:57 <oklopol> don't you make a new language exactly when you don't want to worry about breaking stuff :o
13:44:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, it is not a new language, it is a revision of a current one
13:44:36 <AnMaster> I think it clearly states that in the abstract and/or introduction
13:45:21 <oklopol> you can extend it to n dimensions only up to a fixed n
13:45:42 <oklopol> you would need a drastic language change for it to be truly n-dimensional
13:46:16 <oklopol> but you have to realize i'm also disappointed it doesn't run on reals, for instance.
13:46:38 <oklopol> i'm a man of desire for such purity that things simply don't make sense anymore.
13:47:15 <fizzie> Yes, it does seem a bit like Funge-98 Technical Corrigendum 1. :p
13:47:39 <ehird> funge-108 is goign to be implemented by one person and have programs written by only one person.
13:47:56 <ehird> and they will be ugly because it just consists of clarifications everyone agrees on anyway, and stuff that makes code ugly like the uri fingerprints
13:50:28 * oklopol considers making a funge-109, object-oriented statically typed n-dimentional funge on reals
13:52:00 <ehird> oklopol: funge-109 is so ugly, call it a nice pretty name
13:52:04 <ehird> like Delicious Funge
13:52:12 <ehird> who wouldn't use a language called Delicious Funge?
13:53:02 <oklopol> it would be pretty delicious.
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13:53:46 <ehird> oklopol: just think about delicious funge, imagine a kind of... block of funge, pure eso goodness
13:53:49 <ehird> and you can eat it
13:53:52 <ehird> and it is delicious
13:54:42 <oklopol> but can i officially call it funge-109, so that all the funge-people will be pissed?
13:54:59 <LinuS> there's no officiality in esolangs
13:55:03 <ehird> oklopol: no, because that is not a delicious name
13:55:13 <ehird> it has to be Delicious Funge
13:55:31 <oklopol> well 109 is leet for "lop", which sounds like someone taking a lick with their tongue
13:56:19 <ehird> oklopol: funge-1851982739541962225011
13:57:16 <ehird> oklopol: pfft, hex english is stupid
13:57:22 <ehird> 1851982739541962225011 wtf
13:59:32 <oklopol> but it's okay if translated to base 10
13:59:56 * oklopol slaps oklopol for saying something good about base 10
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14:14:48 <oklopol> i solved my noprob problem, turns out it's *impossible* to do what i tried to do!
14:15:15 <oklopol> the example, A = B ^ C, where A is not known, B = 1%2, and C = 1, it does indeed set A to 1%2
14:15:29 <oklopol> but, it doesn't set A to an *independent* 1%2
14:15:54 <oklopol> so, while all these relations are symmetric
14:16:21 <oklopol> A = B ^ C where A and B are 1%2 and C is not known doesn't make C 1, because A and B are independent, this is not a symmetric case.
14:16:50 <oklopol> point being: i'm an idiot, and it's again an open case whether noprob is tc.
14:18:51 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH I JUST SAW A COMMENT BY ais523 ON WIKIPEDIA
14:18:58 <ehird> stuff like that always weirds me out
14:19:27 <oklopol> yeah it's weird bumping into irc people in the real world
14:20:22 <ehird> lol, he's arguing for moving the main page to portal:something (or was, in jan 07)
14:21:59 <oklopol> always thinking in portals
14:22:15 <ehird> oklopol: is that just a completely random, nonsensical comment for no reason?
14:22:28 <oklopol> actually that was a portal pun
14:25:01 <oklopol> they woman says "now you're thinking in portals" in the trailer-thingie
14:25:06 <oklopol> i haven't actually played the game
14:25:20 <ehird> now you're thinking WITH portals
14:26:31 <oklopol> i'd prefer "thinking in portals", that's an inherently more portal way to think
14:45:18 <oklopol> Author of the Funge-98 interpreter CCBI and contriubtor of many valuable
14:46:52 <oklopol> This inducates the implementation is free to do whatever it wants,
14:46:52 <oklopol> even error out. However an implementation SHOULD not crash or
14:46:52 <oklopol> lock up, it SHOULD error out gracefully.
14:48:14 <fizzie> There are typos, yes. Also page 43, first item of the first bullet-point list, "implmenetation".
14:49:39 <ehird> also the grammar and phrasage is really really awkawrd
14:49:44 <ehird> like most of AnMaster's speech >.<
14:51:17 <oklopol> how are the ranges wrong on page 5?
14:51:46 <oklopol> and heh, i was just thinking it was much better than his usual speech.
14:51:48 <fizzie> Page 51 second line: "implemenation". Although I'm not sure how much sense it makes to manually list these; some sort of a spell-checker would catch real typos.
14:52:12 <fizzie> (My page numbers were pdf-pages, not real page numbers.)
14:52:18 <oklopol> well yeah, guess i could stop listing those, i'm not comfortable listing anything other than typos anyway
14:52:36 <oklopol> because only with typos am i confident i can fix them all
14:52:52 <ehird> <oklopol> and heh, i was just thinking it was much better than his usual speech.
14:52:57 <ehird> because we keep correcting him.
14:53:38 <fizzie> I don't know about the ranges, on first glance they seem to be [-2^31, 2^31 - 1] like they should.
14:54:58 <oklopol> hmm, actually i may be reading things chris has written atm, because there are "comments for chris" right after them questioning the text.
14:55:23 <oklopol> i'm not actually sure what i'm reading, but who cares, it's better than learning to use microsoft word for tomorrow's test :-D
14:55:44 <ehird> AnMaster: Why do you say what whenever I mention your name?
14:55:49 <ehird> Other people mentioned it before me, too.
14:55:53 <fizzie> Also isn't it Pressey, not Pressy?
14:55:59 <AnMaster> ehird, not since the last line I said
14:57:11 <AnMaster> ehird, if you point out the specific grammar problems I'm more than happy to correct them
14:57:30 <ehird> I would, except I'd flood the channel by pasting the entire thing in...
14:57:31 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Yes, it does seem a bit like Funge-98 Technical Corrigendum 1. :p <-- intended
14:57:59 <AnMaster> * oklopol considers making a funge-109, object-oriented statically typed n-dimentional funge on reals <-- funge-108 may turn into 109 depending on how much time I have
14:58:10 <AnMaster> probably will get more free time at the end of next month
14:58:20 <oklopol> AnMaster: well 110 then, but i guess i'd have to include the automaton somehow, then.
14:58:42 <ehird> oklopol: DELICIOUS FUNGE
14:59:31 <ehird> delicious funge is what i told oklopol to name his amazing funge
15:00:15 <fizzie> "Funge With A Flavor" could be the name of a Funge programming book; with a picture of a cat licking something fungeoid on the cover.
15:01:09 <ehird> (on O RLY...) a bad one, albeit
15:01:29 <fizzie> Yes, I caught it a few seconds too late, when I started to wonder why it was in all caps.
15:01:33 <AnMaster> also fixed the typos I saw mentioned above,
15:01:44 <AnMaster> and yes I need to run a spell checker over it
15:04:08 <ehird> meanwhile, we seem to have established a bit of informal precedent in agora that an ascii art picture of a whale is in fact a noun
15:04:18 <ehird> and that an ascii art picture of the cookie monster is the word "Monster"
15:05:13 <AnMaster> heh, specific pictures of them, or any pictures depicting those items (rendered as ASCII art of course)
15:06:15 <ehird> probably all pictures but the precedent is for one bit
15:06:47 <ehird> AnMaster: mad scientist is an agora office that every week publishes a proposal to add to the Monster rule, a few sentences from a randomly selected rule with a certain noun replaced with Monster throughout
15:06:51 <ehird> i am currently the mad scientist
15:06:56 <ehird> and the random rule picked was 2105
15:06:59 <ehird> the ascii art map of agora
15:07:04 <ehird> see The Map of Agora in http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.txt
15:07:10 <ehird> i replaced the whale with an ascii art cookie monster
15:07:17 <ehird> hopefully it will pass
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15:08:10 <ehird> cmeme doesn't talk.
15:08:27 <asiekierka> Also, ehird, will you give me the implementation(s) of DOBELA you (supposedly) made?
15:08:46 <AnMaster> ehird, that map seems like based on Australia, but with most names (all? Unsure about "Darwin", could be a real location) replaced
15:09:46 <fizzie> Canberra is in Australia, and approximately at the correct location too.
15:10:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah and so is Brisbane iirc?
15:10:03 <ehird> AnMaster: agora was founded in an australian university
15:10:09 <AnMaster> not sure if it is correct placement
15:10:13 <ehird> and its birthday is officially in the australian timezone
15:10:17 <ehird> even though everything else uses utc
15:10:26 <AnMaster> "MANUBOURNE" is typo for Melbourne I guess
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15:10:46 <ehird> unlikely to be a typo.
15:10:47 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:10:50 <ehird> there are very few typos in the ruleset
15:10:53 <fizzie> Intentional misspellings might not be callable typos.
15:11:31 <fizzie> Must move home now, away for a while.
15:11:51 <AnMaster> ehird, how would you output an ascii value using thutu I wonder...
15:12:15 <AnMaster> asiekierka, anyway spam elsewhere ;P
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15:14:42 <asiekierka> i will stop if ehird gives me what he said he did
15:15:04 <ehird> Actually, if you keep spamming we'll just /ignore you.
15:16:16 <asiekierka> Just, can someone get thutubot to #-blah?
15:16:38 <asiekierka> woahwoahwoah, wait, is it HARDWIRED to #esoteric? T_T
15:16:47 <ehird> It runs on my server.
15:16:48 <ehird> I would be able to do it if I knew thutu.
15:17:00 <ehird> asiekierka: It is written in a string rewriting langue.
15:17:04 <ehird> You were perhaps expecting a configuration file?
15:17:15 <asiekierka> I was expecting that you can go Edit-Find...
15:18:07 <ehird> I'm not modifying ais523's code, it's in his account.
15:19:07 <asiekierka> It's sad there can't be an Regular Expressions IRC bot
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15:41:10 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you said you resumed working on that taxibot?
15:43:37 <asiekierka> 08:50:12 <asiekierka> Someone remembers my TaxiBot project?
15:43:38 <asiekierka> 08:50:21 <AnMaster> you gave it up yes
15:43:38 <asiekierka> 08:50:24 <asiekierka> No, i'm not going back to work on it
15:43:46 <asiekierka> 08:50:28 <asiekierka> But i planned to make a Taxi-like languagwe
15:44:09 <AnMaster> since it started with "No," the "not" made no sense there
15:44:28 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well you got a too short attention span
15:45:03 <ehird> AnMaster: 'well, your attention span is too short'
15:45:41 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well and then decided to not implement it
15:45:56 <asiekierka> but "i don't know HOW TO implement it"
15:45:57 <AnMaster> and that is fine, except you tried to get other ppl to implement it
15:46:11 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I recommend learning then :)
15:46:30 <asiekierka> I wonder if i can implement DOBELA in ALPACA
15:46:52 <AnMaster> asiekierka, isn't alpaca for cell automatons?
15:47:03 <AnMaster> which iirc it turned out dobela wasn't
15:47:52 <asiekierka> The hard thing (for me) about it is that i must manage up to (infinity) number of dots
15:48:11 <asiekierka> because you don't know how many you'll need
15:49:44 <asiekierka> Some things (a binary BF/BCT interpreter) would need about infinity dots
15:51:15 <AnMaster> I just had a look at the wikipedia article for F#... It seems like a horrible language, taking the worst from functional and the worst from imperative and gluing it together with a horrible syntax
15:52:49 <oklopol> asiekierka: what'a hard about infinite dots?
15:53:22 <fizzie> It's not Fortran-inspired? A shame.
15:53:59 <asiekierka> oklopol: I don't know programming this well to make dynamic stuff
15:54:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, no it seems to be a mix of the worst of lisp, haskell and C# using a messy infix notation.
15:54:41 <oklopol> asiekierka: there's really no difference between a finite and an infinitely extendable amount, except that you need to change your container.
15:55:05 <oklopol> assuming a language capable of that
15:55:21 <oklopol> if the language isn't capable of that, it's not good for a noober imo
15:55:25 <AnMaster> yes and many high-level languages provide such stuff in either the syntax of the language or in the standard library
15:56:07 <oklopol> delphi isn't a language, it's an anima
15:56:30 <oklopol> the animal is not a delphin, dear oklopol
15:56:31 <AnMaster> anime? Doesn't make more sense
15:57:26 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, but my pun-engine is a bit borken, it confused dolphin with the finnish version for the purpose of dropping the last character
15:57:36 * asiekierka sees AnMaster have won, so he gives him something, that is, a box of DOBELA characters. Paper cutouts, to be exact.
15:57:56 <AnMaster> hm seems like wikipedia had a page moving vandal since "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi" redirects to "H,,,,Ě,,,,R,,,,M,,,,E,,,,E ?"
15:58:18 <AnMaster> oklopol, delfin in Swedish btw
15:58:35 <ehird> Revision history of H,,,,Ě,,,,R,,,,M,,,,E,,,,E ?
15:58:35 <ehird> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
15:58:35 <ehird> View logs for this page
15:58:35 <ehird> There is no revision history for this page.
15:58:46 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah got no idea about that...
15:58:49 <oklopol> it's with an "e" in all other languages
15:59:12 <asiekierka> what i hate is the 0/0 0/1 1/0 1/1 collision rules!
15:59:16 <ehird> probably a database glitch.
15:59:25 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean corrupted database?
15:59:33 <ehird> or encoding issues
16:00:17 <asiekierka> Basically, i can't check topleftmostness for 30000 dots without taking up a lot of CPU time
16:00:26 <asiekierka> So i will just do it in the order of "first created"
16:00:39 <oklopol> what's your dot representatino
16:01:01 <oklopol> and 30000 checks is nothing
16:01:38 <oklopol> but, when programming, an arbitrary number *anywhere* is usually a sign of bad design.
16:02:25 <asiekierka> even the Hello! program needs 56 dots or so
16:02:48 <AnMaster> you don't want to check everything
16:02:54 <AnMaster> you only want to check what is relevant
16:02:58 <asiekierka> How will i know what is the topleftmost
16:03:26 <oklopol> what the fuck is that number
16:03:34 <AnMaster> asiekierka, there could be more
16:03:34 <fizzie> Keep them dots in the correct order all the time?
16:03:44 <asiekierka> fizzie: I'd need to move the array all around
16:04:02 <asiekierka> Except if i'd store the directions and just update them on a map X,Y array
16:04:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think asiekierka don't know about "malloc" assuming you have to do static foo myarray[30000]
16:04:14 <AnMaster> that is the only way I can explain it
16:04:31 <asiekierka> and not assuming my program has max 30000 dots
16:04:40 <asiekierka> but the program in DOBELA currently has 30000 dots on the board
16:04:47 <ehird> AnMaster: asiekierka can't program beyond trivial stuff
16:05:16 <ehird> oklopol: presumably, runs on the nintendo ds
16:05:35 <oklopol> "wireworld ds" sounded more like a wireworld console than wireworld in a console
16:05:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well then that program is large enough to be slow I guess. While you can't directly use Game of Life algorithms, they may provide some useful insight in how to handle stuff like this.
16:06:26 <asiekierka> I still need to store what's the dot's X,Y
16:07:19 <asiekierka> so every dot and generator has it's ID
16:07:22 <AnMaster> as long as it isn't statically allocated...
16:07:47 <asiekierka> By default i'm taking as much dot memory as large the map is
16:08:01 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you need a well defined processing order. What cell do you start with? Do you process it line by line?
16:08:12 <asiekierka> The topleftmost, line by line, left-right
16:08:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, Well you need to use a sparse structure really.
16:09:09 <AnMaster> and, you need to remember other stuff than dots, such as walls and so on
16:09:31 <asiekierka> only the | wall, generators and dots are really changeable
16:09:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and collision could lead to new walls
16:09:56 <asiekierka> and they will be checked on the map array
16:10:26 <asiekierka> or i could just wait for my friend who'll do it for me
16:10:31 <AnMaster> why two arrays? It seems a waste of memory, since no dots can ever exists on the same cell as an object
16:10:55 <asiekierka> but i need to store information about every dot
16:11:16 <AnMaster> well do it in the record for the object?
16:11:40 <asiekierka> basically, have X, Y, type, data1, data2, data3
16:11:56 <AnMaster> well you don't need to store stuff for all types
16:12:20 <AnMaster> in fact with clever encoding I suspect one byte will be enough for everything
16:12:39 <AnMaster> basically dot-going-up, dot-going-down, dot-going-left
16:12:49 <asiekierka> actually, it can either go up, down, left, right
16:12:50 <AnMaster> asiekierka, x/y would be the key
16:13:06 <AnMaster> asiekierka, in the associative array
16:13:49 <AnMaster> you have 4 variants of 1-dot, 4 variants of 0-dot, two variants of |
16:14:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: please don't teach people to program here, at least i find it a lot more annoying than botflood :P
16:14:45 <oklopol> well i guess you're talking about ways to implement this
16:15:06 <oklopol> i'm just annoyed because i want to read everything and i should be doing something else.
16:15:06 <AnMaster> asiekierka, so treat the different directions of dots as different objects, meaning you can all encode it in one byte
16:15:59 <AnMaster> asiekierka, everything is one byte, coordinates (key for map) would be 8 bytes assuming 32-bit integers for x and for y.
16:16:46 <AnMaster> now I think a balanced tree may be a good representation
16:16:57 <AnMaster> better implement different alternatives to see which one works best
16:17:24 <AnMaster> you need to be able to insert/delete fast and iterate in order fast.
16:17:40 <AnMaster> so some type of associative array.
16:17:54 <asiekierka> i don't really care about optimization
16:18:25 <AnMaster> as long as you separate the storage logic from the computation logic it shouldn't be hard to replace
16:18:44 <AnMaster> now I leave the rest up to you
16:19:04 <asiekierka> oh, and i have a global 1-bit fifo to maintain too
16:19:30 <fizzie> You also have an AnMaster to maintain. :p
16:20:26 <fizzie> fungot: How would you implement this?
16:20:26 <fungot> fizzie: 20:25, june 1, 2007.
16:20:38 <fizzie> fungot: Oh, you already did.
16:20:39 <fungot> fizzie: why does the hollyoaks page still refer to essentially the same throughout every revision. this article mentions that a helix cannot be rotated or ' ' land" into either of them to the article.
16:23:05 <asiekierka> [ ] [ ] [ [ ] ] ] ] [ ] [ ] ] ] ] [ [ [ [ ]
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16:28:13 <asiekierka> + [ + [ + [ + [ + [ + [ + [ + [ + [ + [ ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] - hrh
16:29:34 <fizzie> That's a not terribly interesting infinite loop.
16:29:59 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> isn't Proton inspired from DOBELA <-- not much
16:30:16 <AnMaster> it was inspired by reading half a line you said about particles bouncing off walls
16:30:25 <AnMaster> + having a physics test the day after
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16:41:36 <asiekierka> what are the ways to prove that something IS turing-complete
16:42:07 <Deewiant> show that it can run brainfuck ;-)
16:43:17 <fizzie> Show that it can simulate a universal Turing machine.
16:43:20 <Deewiant> show that it can run anything which can run brainfuck
16:43:42 <Deewiant> Depends on the situation, I suspect
16:43:47 <fizzie> Whatever most naturally maps to the language in question, I guess.
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16:45:11 <fizzie> For some reason I find the "99% turing-complete" thing amusing.
16:45:34 <fizzie> But tag systems are pretty primitive and *might* be easier to do than brainfuck.
16:46:02 <oklopol> if there's a queue, a cyclic tag system, if there's a stack, sk, if you can move around the memory as you like, brainfuck, minsky machine if you have unbounded registers of some sort
16:46:06 <GregorR> This is not a continuous measurement :P
16:46:12 <Slereah_> Like, there's one particular function that you can't do?
16:46:19 <asiekierka> 99% is "command/rule compatible, probably"
16:46:35 <GregorR> Sounds like you're 99% sure it's Turing complete.
16:46:36 <oklopol> GregorR: that's what makes it funny, it's like saying something is 99% infinite
16:46:40 <GregorR> But it's either 0% or 10)% Turing complete.
16:46:53 <asiekierka> GregorRRRRRRRRRR: 10)%??????????????????
16:47:05 <Slereah_> Let's imagine some godel encoding of a Turing machine
16:47:06 <fizzie> GregorR: That's what the DOBELA esolangs-wiki-page says: it's "quite surely" 99% TC.
16:47:18 <Slereah_> For every program description that is =0 mod 100
16:47:24 <Slereah_> This program does not exist in our language
16:48:10 <oklopol> but it may well be it's true for all encodings
16:49:15 <GregorR> You pronounce it doo-BEE-lah?
16:49:55 <GregorR> Slereah_: That reminds me, why is your ident jewbutt? :P
16:50:46 <Slereah_> So I use the first word that springs to mind
16:51:14 <GregorR> Deewiant: WTF I say to that URL.
16:54:16 <Slereah_> I changed from butt to jewbutt yesterday, actually, or two days ago I think
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16:55:31 <fizzie> That was quite a "bam!".
16:55:49 <Slereah_> http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/0/01/Dsfargeg_thread.jpg
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17:05:48 <Deewiant> +ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
17:05:49 <thutubot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/******************************************************* ...too much output!
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17:12:18 <asiekierka> +ul (:~SaS(iekierka)!):~SaS(iekierka)!
17:12:18 <thutubot> :~SaS(iekierka)!(:~SaS(iekierka)!)
17:12:53 <asiekierka> +ul (:a~*S(iekierka)!):a~*S(iekierka)!
17:12:53 <thutubot> (:a~*S(iekierka)!):a~*S(iekierka)!
17:27:37 <ratification> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7680641.stm *snerk*
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18:01:40 <GregorR> "Snerk"ing at the title of that article is both extremely offensive and hilarious.
18:16:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | leave out the -F.
18:16:51 <asiekierka> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20081023 - check it out
18:17:04 <oklopol> hmm, was the joke that ms can mean microsoft?
18:17:14 <oklopol> well i don't care, i don't wanna be offended
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18:24:25 <fizzie> The "leave out the -F" was about grep's command line arguments.
18:31:25 <oklopol> ehird: i said i didn't wanna be offended! :|
18:32:27 <asiekierka> but i don't know what the article is about
18:32:32 <asiekierka> so i'll be quietlyquietlysuperquietultra
18:33:48 <asiekierka> Since i got the bandwidth speed equal to what i'd have if i downloaded above 5GB/month
18:33:54 <asiekierka> the first day when the limit was reset!
18:34:40 <oklopol> 20:32:08 asiekierka: but i don't know what the article is about <<< how about read the caption :P
18:35:15 <asiekierka> how about saying my internet is 32kbits/s due to a stupid ISP problem and rrrreemain quiet
18:36:49 <asiekierka> i started to realize how -1 in UL worked
18:37:06 <asiekierka> And I started to have some ideas on how UL subtraction works
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18:39:22 <asiekierka> I forgot about my fixer, or "adding 1 before"
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18:40:59 <oklopol> that doesn't really look like a "substraction block", more like... just creating a number
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18:52:46 <GregorR> http://purdueextremecroquet.org/
19:00:02 <fizzie> I have a strange urge to say "maybe you should be implementing DOBELA", but I intend to resist it and not say anything.
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19:11:36 <oklopol> GregorR: that's a fun game
19:20:36 <asiekierka> fizzie: not really in the implementimood
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20:08:37 <oerjan> YOUR INTERNETS ASPLODE
20:11:43 <oerjan> something's wrong - that phrase only gives 2 google hits
20:18:05 <asiekierka> 4294967296*4294967296=18446744073709551616
20:18:36 <AnMaster> ** exception error: no match of right hand side value 4294967297
20:19:07 <AnMaster> anyway asiekierka is obviously using a calculator for the latter ones
20:19:47 <oerjan> after 65536 i only know 1048576 by heart
20:20:23 <oerjan> of course someone _could_ be memorizing further
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20:22:58 <oerjan> now memorizing powers of 3, _that_ would be geeky
20:24:13 <oklopol> prolly wrong already, and why do i keep ircing.
20:24:33 <oerjan> actually you missed two
20:25:24 <oerjan> oh you were trying to square?
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20:25:44 <Deewiant> yes, the operative word being "trying" :-P
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20:31:54 <fizzie> After 65536 I only remember 131072, 262144, 1048576 and 16777216.
20:32:21 <fizzie> That last one was at least some "our displays can show this many colours" advertisement.
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20:34:23 <AnMaster> I only remember 2 4 6 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192
20:35:21 <oerjan> memory is such a fickle thing
20:35:59 <fizzie> 16384, 32768 and 65536 appear quite often too.
20:36:31 <oklopol> i remember all powers of two in binary
20:36:59 <oklopol> do you want a list or something?
20:37:08 <AnMaster> well no because I see the joke
20:37:30 <fizzie> Oh, and 1474560 -- the size of the standard "1.44 MB" floppy.
20:38:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, really? Well I might have said I haven't used floppies for years, except I recently (two months ago) did a BIOS update
20:38:11 <AnMaster> but apart from that it is true
20:38:44 <oklopol> floppies? i recall using those when moving some of my games from a comp to another, i think that was some 10 years ago
20:39:19 <oklopol> after that i don't recall any instance of using them
20:39:21 <fizzie> I probably used a floppy for some booting purposes as recently as ~5 years ago.
20:39:26 <oklopol> but i've probably seen a lot of them
20:39:43 <oerjan> fizzie: except that's not actually a power of 2
20:39:50 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, it's just a number I recall.
20:40:32 <fizzie> And it's almost a power of 2, anyway; there's a 3^2*5 in there, but that's not much.
20:41:05 <fizzie> 2^15*3^2*5; the factors of 2 dominate.
20:41:55 <fizzie> ~3.14159265359; that's all I remember of that particular number. Some people remember pi to a ridiculous amount of digits.
20:42:14 <fizzie> I think mooz used to remember the first 100, at least.
20:42:33 <oklopol> 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944...
20:42:48 <fizzie> I just remember that it's the ..18281828 and then it goes confusing.
20:43:46 <fizzie> Can't say I've ever *needed* to remember those numbers.
20:44:26 <Deewiant> oklopol: heh, that's exactly as much as I remember
20:44:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you remember THAT MUCH?
20:45:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is near the start
20:46:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is near the start too
20:46:09 <Deewiant> I think I never memorized beyond the "81640" there
20:46:20 <Deewiant> yes, and it's an infinite number of times later too
20:49:15 <fizzie> ^bf >++++[-<++++++++>]>+++++++[-<+++++++>]<[[.<]>[>]<[->+>+<<]>>-[-<<+>>]<]
20:49:16 <fungot> 1 10 100 1000 10000 100000 1000000 10000000 100000000 1000000000 10000000000 100000000000 1000000000000 10000000000000 100000000000000 1000000000000000 10000000000000000 100000000000000000 100000000000000000 ...
20:49:21 <fizzie> There's them powers of two in binaery.
20:49:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is that true for every finite sequence?
20:50:04 <fizzie> My brainfuck-fu is weak, took me almost five minutes to write that much.
20:51:19 <oerjan> AnMaster: it is probable but unknown, for all finite sequences
20:51:46 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_number
20:51:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so how do you know that "592" occurs an infinite number of times?
20:52:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: he _doesn't_ know
20:52:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes that is a button on google
20:52:34 <oerjan> but most who have considered it, think it is
20:52:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: didn't even occur to me
20:52:58 <Deewiant> (that it is a button on the main google page)
20:53:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I was trying to make a joke yes
20:53:29 <AnMaster> and it was quite good. YET NO ONE GOT IT!
20:53:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, and I didn't get it :-P
20:55:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw, what is that "----###"?
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22:38:35 <fizzie> ^bf ++[[<+++++++[-<+++++++>]>[-<+<+>>]<[->+<]<--.[-]<]++++[->++++++++<]>.[-]>>[-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<-[>-------->+>[->+>+<<]+>>[<<->>[-]]<<[>+<-]>[-<+>]<<<<-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<[-]]]]]]]]]]<[->+<]>+>[-<+>]>>]<<<]
22:38:35 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ...
22:38:45 <fizzie> I suck at the brainfuck; that's way longer than it really should.
22:39:13 <ehird> http://blog.wired.com/music/2008/10/dr-pepper-to-ma.html Awesome!
22:57:22 <fizzie> Er, it just keeps the decimal digits on the tape; goes from the most significant end to the least significant printing them out; and then does a *2 operation on its way back.
22:57:26 <oklopol> i'd prolly store the number reversed on the array, and each cycle, multiply all cells by two, then do carries, then print with 48 added
22:58:05 <fizzie> It's that mostly -[>++<-[>++<-[... -looking part.
22:58:43 <oklopol> it's pretty, but i'd probably have to manually execute it for a while to be able to understand it.
22:58:49 <fizzie> Except that the carry-setting part is a bit overcomplicated since it needs to make the number longer.
22:59:02 <oklopol> that's why i'd've stored it reversed
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23:00:07 <fizzie> It is reversed, but I keep track of where the number ends by using a 1 to store a 0 and so on; so it needs to change a potential 0 there to 1 so that there's something to add the carry to.
23:00:26 <fizzie> Since the tape wraps, it doesn't really matter if it's "reversed" or not, it's just a matter of tr/<>/></ anyway.
23:00:39 <fizzie> ^def pow2 bf ++[[<+++++++[-<+++++++>]>[-<+<+>>]<[->+<]<--.[-]<]++++[->++++++++<]>.[-]>>[-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<-[>-------->+>[->+>+<<]+>>[<<->>[-]]<<[>+<-]>[-<+>]<<<<-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<-[>++<[-]]]]]]]]]]<[->+<]>+>[-<+>]>>]<<<]
23:00:47 <fizzie> Whoops, that was the def part, not the ^bf part.
23:00:52 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ...
23:01:52 <ais523|mibbit> really, I need to come up with a better base-10-output routine for Underload
23:01:52 <fizzie> If you can call it "arithmetic", since it only does *2.
23:02:12 <ais523|mibbit> also, what base does it store numbers in? Decimal?
23:02:15 <fizzie> No. Well, when the number reaches the tape length.
23:02:20 <fizzie> Decimal, for easy output.
23:03:16 <fizzie> The fungot implementation has a... what was it? Some reasonable number, I didn't want a huge funge-space.
23:03:16 <fungot> fizzie: in the final example given fnord),
23:03:43 <ais523|mibbit> I know Thutubot cuts off at 65534 bytes of internal memory used
23:03:47 <oklopol> i know, thought i'd make the point anyway, though
23:03:53 <ais523|mibbit> because that's the largest number you can put in a {} block in a Perl regex
23:04:26 <fizzie> I think it's just a thousand cells in fungot. It probably runs out of time or output length for anything that seriously needs more.
23:04:26 <fungot> fizzie: under the major heading " renewable energy support mechanisms
23:04:31 <ais523|mibbit> I cheat with implementing the regexen in Thutu, I just copy them verbatim into Perl and let it interpret them
23:05:12 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>]
23:05:37 <fizzie> Yes. Although that would probably show the bf version even if I had a built-in command of the same name.
23:06:07 <ais523|mibbit> hmm... I'm surprised at how tolerant Keymaker's Underload-in-BF is
23:06:26 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
23:06:53 <fizzie> Is there any way of getting Underload to output characters that do not appear in the program? I guess not. (Well, except parentheses maybe.)
23:07:15 <fizzie> Heh, there's a difference.
23:07:39 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(::**)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^(x)~^S
23:07:50 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(::::::******)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^(x)~^S
23:07:55 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(:::::*****)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^(x)~^S
23:07:56 <AnMaster> ais523|mibbit, ... "guild council"?
23:08:05 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(:::::*****)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
23:08:14 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(::::::******)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
23:08:19 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(:::::::*******)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
23:08:31 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(::::::::********)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
23:08:38 <AnMaster> ^ul (::::::******)(::::::::********)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
23:08:45 <ais523|mibbit> AnMaster: sort of like Parliament, but for a University, not a country
23:08:53 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(:::::::::*********)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
23:09:00 <ais523|mibbit> we decide what the university's student's should be campaigning for
23:09:06 <oklopol> +ul (a)(::::::******)(:::::::::*********)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
23:09:16 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(::::::******)(::::::::::**********)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
23:09:32 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit ("Konversation terminated!").
23:09:35 <AnMaster> ais523|mibbit, I think that may be an error "<thutubot> ...a out of stack!"?
23:09:41 <oklopol> okily. so subtraction isn't exactly well-defined for negatives.
23:10:14 <AnMaster> ais523|mibbit, how comes fungot handled it?
23:10:16 <fizzie> It's not very clear that 'a' is an instruction in this case, though.
23:10:25 <ais523|mibbit> AnMaster: because its Underload program is written in BF
23:10:37 <fungot> AnMaster: should this be reverted, because you can't read their mind. it is
23:11:08 <fungot> ais523|mibbit: potential references to use for citations. --special:contributions/ 131.216.41.16131.216.41.16 ( user talk:131.216.41.16talk) 19:26, 8 july 2006 ( utc
23:11:23 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/bef$ echo 'aS' | ~/inst/rcfunge/rcfunge/funge -q underload.b98
23:11:30 <fizzie> The Funge-98 version will error out.
23:11:34 <AnMaster> ais523, so thutubot is "fail-fast" while fungot is "fail-ignore"?
23:11:35 <fungot> AnMaster: the constant use of " coup" here is simply incorrect. first uncertainty can be incorporated into the section on company officers, but it states there that the ep peaked at 2 ' ' fnord
23:11:37 <fizzie> When/if I get it integrated.
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23:12:09 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(::::::******)((!)~^^)^S
23:12:09 <ais523|mibbit> it seems that the BF version has an infinite number of empty strings at the bottom of the stack
23:12:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, using { it is easy to integrate
23:12:28 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(::::::******)((!)~^)^S
23:12:44 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(::::::******)((~)~^^)^S
23:12:48 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(:::::::*******)((~)~^^)^S
23:12:52 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(::::::::********)((~)~^^)^S
23:12:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: It still needs to store the program somewhere; and currently the program storage format is a bit hardcoded to the brainfuck bytecode, expects all programs to consist of two-cell pair elements and so on.
23:13:17 <ais523|mibbit> that's really quite clever, and utterly different from the way I did divide-by-10
23:13:22 <oklopol> that's where i'm trying to head, but that's just modulo...
23:13:41 <fizzie> Still, shouldn't be too difficult; there's already a "language id" number stored with the program, I just need to add a branching on columns 5 and 6 for that, and fix the things that deal with programs a bit.
23:13:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm? Just store the underload stuff somewhere else?
23:13:46 <oklopol> my idea was, to get, using that, the parity bit, so i can subtract it, and do safe division; or something.
23:13:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, like 50 cells away or whatever
23:14:05 <ais523|mibbit> you would need to store something in the program each time round
23:14:05 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't want to have to have two completely different lists to check for "^foo".
23:14:25 <fizzie> (As well as two completely different lists to store to the state file and list with ^show and so on.)
23:14:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, maybe you could compile them to befunge? :D
23:15:10 <AnMaster> I believe threaded code would be awfully slow
23:15:25 <fizzie> I think I'll just store the program string (there where the brainfuck version converts to bytecode); it's just that the state-file saving and such need to be fixed to understand that.
23:15:44 <oklopol> +ul (::::::::********)(:((this)S)~((that)S)~(~)~^^^!)^S
23:15:48 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::*********)(:((this)S)~((that)S)~(~)~^^^!)^S
23:16:48 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::*********)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^S
23:16:48 <fizzie> Fortuitously the number "0" never appears in the brainfuck bytecode (except as the terminating instruction) so I can just make it deal with programs as arbitrary zero-terminated lists of cells. (Even though the brainfuck bytecode "really" is pairs of (operation, argument) values.)
23:16:54 <ais523|mibbit> AnMaster: it's Underload, it's not that bad once you're used to it
23:16:59 <ehird> http://upsilon.cc/~zack/blog/posts/2008/10/from_Vim_to_Emacs_-_part_1/ LOL :D Debian vim maintainer switches to emacs
23:17:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh btw for state file saving, if you ever use i and/or o be aware of that cfunge reads stuff as unsigned char
23:17:10 <ais523|mibbit> except in Mibbit because it keeps replacing bits of code with smileys
23:17:15 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::*********)(:(~~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^S
23:18:40 <fizzie> I think I'll stick to FILE's G/P for the state file, it's so easy to use even if it's a bit inefficient.
23:19:20 <ehird> unikitten is still the ultimate 2d language
23:19:33 <oklopol> +ul (:::***)((:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^^)^S
23:19:41 <fizzie> And in the language model (which I'm reading with FILE's R) I just use only byte values [0, 127] in order to not get into problems with that.
23:19:49 <oerjan> +ul ((:^S~aSS)(+ul )):^S~aSS
23:19:51 <oklopol> ...could someone find decrement in that? :P
23:19:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, as for GP I don't remember how they are supposed to read but probably char or unsigned char
23:20:19 <oklopol> +ul (:::***)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)^S
23:20:22 <fizzie> I just store decimal integers, one per line, so I don't really care. :p
23:20:28 <AnMaster> if the spec doesn't say otherwise it should be unsigned in cfunge, if it is still signed be sure to mention it
23:20:45 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::*********)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^S
23:20:52 <oklopol> +ul (::::::::::**********)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^S
23:20:58 <fizzie> (Except that the ^def command names are there as plaintext...)
23:21:01 <oklopol> +ul (::::::::::**********)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^(x)~^S
23:21:04 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::::***********)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^(x)~^S
23:21:08 <oklopol> +ul (::::::::::::************)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^(x)~^S
23:21:12 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(:(~:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~)~()~(~)~^^^!)^(x)~^S
23:21:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, so all below 128 in other words?
23:21:37 <AnMaster> that is probably the only portable way
23:21:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I don't know if cfunge truncates or wraps larger integer
23:22:08 <AnMaster> ie, if 278 ends up as 255 or some low number
23:22:35 <AnMaster> possibly it may vary between different instructions
23:24:56 <oklopol> the rest, it is not trivial.
23:25:04 <oklopol> it's as hard as the beginning was.
23:29:48 <oerjan> +ul ((:^SaS:aS^!S)(+ul ))((:^SaS:aS^!S)(*ul )):^SaS:aS^!S
23:29:48 <thutubot> *ul (:^SaS:aS^!S)((:^SaS:aS^!S)(*ul )):^SaS:aS^!S
23:31:55 <oerjan> +ul ((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(+ul ))((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(*ul )):^S!aS:aS^!S
23:31:55 <thutubot> *ul ((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(*ul ))((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(+ul )):^S!aS:aS^!S
23:32:11 <AnMaster> ehird, oh I just sent to a few friends who use vim
23:32:40 <ehird> Good to know you're caught up in the childish editor wars.
23:32:52 <oerjan> ^ul ((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(+ul ))((:^S!aS:aS^!S)(*ul )):^S!aS:aS^!S
23:34:14 <oerjan> was probably for the best
23:34:42 <oerjan> that fungot couldn't run my program
23:34:42 <fungot> oerjan: this article was automatically assessed because at least one reliable source that says that latin is a timeless language. it is
23:35:17 <oerjan> because then someone might want to test it properly...
23:35:49 <fungot> ais523|mibbit: please go to fnord image description page and edit it to include a wikipedia:fair use rationale guidelineexplanation or rationale as to why its use in ' ' '
23:36:12 <ais523|mibbit> fungot: you seem to be confused by the markup for bold
23:36:12 <fungot> ais523|mibbit: the 4wp car is mine, no it is not the case.
23:36:24 <oerjan> oh right, it's the wp pages
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23:36:58 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)^S
23:36:59 <thutubot> ::::::::::::::!!()()**************
23:40:00 <AnMaster> actually a better idea would be fungot <-> thutubot loop
23:40:01 <fungot> AnMaster: and then who knows, dr spooner may prove right in the end... fnord 02:25, 15 oct 2004 ( utc)
23:40:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, you probably want to avoid loops with thutubot
23:40:36 <oklopol> +ul (:::::*****)((:)~*(*)*)^(x)~^S
23:40:37 <AnMaster> with ul that would be possible
23:40:58 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(::(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^:*~((:)~*(*)*)~^~*^)^S
23:41:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: er i did just that a bit above?
23:42:02 <oerjan> except that fungot couldn't run the program through because it was too complicated
23:42:03 <fungot> oerjan: what about all the other controversial statements basically summarise what he says, dec. 25, 1989, friday jerusalem post
23:42:25 <fizzie> Didn't we already have one fungot-thutubot loop.
23:42:25 <fungot> fizzie: this article was automatically assessed because at least one tank fnord as a subspecies of the black on white violence. clear, unedited and in no way constitute a " massive attack on free speech" but aiming to insult and defame holocaust victims and fnord and their meanings. i don't think anybody calls it the " power stroke"
23:42:54 <oerjan> yeah but i wanted to try a loop with both in underload
23:43:11 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(::((:)~*(*)*)~^:*~(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^~*^)^S
23:43:12 <thutubot> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::!!()()*****************************
23:43:18 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(::((:)~*(*)*)~^:*~(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)~^~*^)^(x)~^S
23:43:33 <oklopol> +ul (:::::::::::::*************)(x)~^S
23:43:42 <oklopol> well that's one complicated multiplication.
23:43:50 <oklopol> that was *not* what i was trying to do.
00:04:26 <oklopol> +ul (:::::*****)((a)~(b)~(~())~(a)~^^^)S
00:04:31 <oklopol> +ul (:::::*****)((a)~(b)~(~())~(a)~^^^)^S
00:04:58 <oklopol> +ul (:::::*****)((a)~(b)~(~())~(a)~^^^!)^S
00:05:02 <oklopol> +ul (::::****)((a)~(b)~(~())~(a)~^^^!)^S
00:05:06 <oklopol> +ul (:*)((a)~(b)~(~())~(a)~^^^!)^S
00:05:11 <oklopol> +ul (!())((a)~(b)~(~())~(a)~^^^!)^S
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02:00:06 <oklopol> +ul (:*)((!())~()~(~())~(a)~^^^!)^(x)~^S
02:00:10 <oklopol> +ul (::**)((!())~()~(~())~(a)~^^^!)^(x)~^S
02:00:14 <oklopol> +ul ()((!())~()~(~())~(a)~^^^!)^(x)~^S
02:00:18 <oklopol> +ul (!())((!())~()~(~())~(a)~^^^!)^(x)~^S
02:01:08 <oklopol> +ul (::**)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)^(x)~^S
02:01:14 <oklopol> +ul (:::***)(:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*)^(x)~^S
02:10:46 <oklopol> oh my god the stack is hard to use.
02:11:41 <oklopol> +ul (::::****)((:)~*(*)*)^(x)~^S
02:11:47 <oklopol> +ul (!())((:)~*(*)*)^(x)~^S
02:12:01 <oklopol> +ul (!())((:)~*(*)*)^((:)~*(*)*)^(x)~^S
02:14:37 <oerjan> +ul (a)(b)a~a*:^~!~^SSS
02:19:48 <thutubot> a{{c}}{{b}} ...S out of stack!
02:20:04 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~a^)^SSS
02:20:05 <thutubot> a{{c}}{{b}} ...S out of stack!
02:20:27 <oklopol> oerjan: just let me spam in peace !
02:20:40 <oerjan> where are those {} from?
02:20:52 <oklopol> well no one knows really :)
02:21:18 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~a^^)^SSS
02:21:19 <thutubot> {{{{c}}{{b}}}} ...S out of stack!
02:21:27 <thutubot> {{a}}{{c}}{{b}} ...S out of stack!
02:22:52 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~a*^)^SS
02:22:54 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~a*^)^SSS
02:23:15 <oklopol> right, you can rotate things on the stack pretty freely
02:23:58 <oerjan> yeah it's just a bit verbose
02:24:01 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~a*^a:*~a*~a*^)^SSS
02:24:18 <oklopol> +ul (a)(b)(c)(a~a*~a*^a:*~a*~a*^)^SSSS
02:24:28 <oklopol> okay, you can do *anything* to the stack.
02:24:39 <oklopol> for some reason i thought you can't.
02:25:50 <oerjan> the a operation is pretty essential
02:26:34 <oerjan> without it you couldn't reach more than two levels down without mangling things
02:27:06 <oklopol> withouth it, would it still have powah?
02:27:39 <oklopol> i should retry sleeping probably, have to be awake in a few hours
02:27:51 <oklopol> i'll probably write a stackmongler tomorrow
02:28:10 <oklopol> a program that codes underload for me
02:28:43 <oklopol> because i'm a wimpy wampy wussypants loser.
02:28:46 <oerjan> it seems those {} are an artifact of debugging output...
02:29:23 <thutubot> {{a}}{{b}}c ...S out of stack!
02:29:37 <oklopol> perhaps popping doesn't remove the balues
02:29:44 <oklopol> and it prints the stack contents
02:31:19 <oklopol> seems output is only done at the end of execution, and failure triggers a raw output mode
02:31:41 <oklopol> but i don't see what sense that makes
02:31:49 <thutubot> {{{{TEST}}}} ...S out of stack!
02:33:38 <oerjan> except we know it can cut off infinite output
02:33:55 <oklopol> well it needs to buffer it
02:34:23 <thutubot> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ...too much output!
02:34:45 <oerjan> hm maybe it just halts
02:35:04 <thutubot> (A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A)(A) ...too much output!
02:35:26 <thutubot> {{A}}:{{{{A}}}}SSSSS:{{{{A}}}}SSSSS ...S out of stack!
02:38:37 <thutubot> ((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B)((A))(B) ...too much output!
02:38:53 <oerjan> it seems the too much output case doesn't trigger this
02:39:24 <oklopol> no, just when you empty the stack
02:40:02 <oklopol> does it just cut execution at illegal chars?
02:43:25 <oerjan> +ul (({{TEST}}))((A))SS
02:43:35 <oklopol> {}'s are actually not allowed in underload iirc
02:43:40 <oerjan> +ul ((A))(({{TEST}}))SS
02:43:42 <oklopol> so that's not actually a bug.
02:43:58 <oerjan> well not as commands, but...
02:44:00 <oklopol> just implementation-defined stuff defined by an implementation
02:44:40 <oerjan> well we can assume thutubot's implementation uses {} for something internally
02:45:13 <oklopol> although i can't say i know what exactly.
02:46:10 <oklopol> which means we should continue
02:46:21 <oerjan> the wiki says nothing about {} although it says []<>" need quoting
02:46:24 <oklopol> or you should. i'm too tired to think, but i like watching this :P
02:46:38 <oerjan> but that interpreters don't implement it
02:47:02 <oerjan> ^ul ((A))(({{TEST}}))SS
02:47:56 <oerjan> i would assume fungot's implementation is entirely different
02:47:56 <fungot> oerjan: the reason this was created was that information on this page. note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 may, 2006, and lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on wikipedia:criteria for speedy deletionimages.2fmediacriteria for speedy deletion. if you have
02:48:28 <oklopol> it's written in an entirely different paradigm
02:49:22 <oklopol> when exactly does that appear?
02:50:06 <oerjan> when you mix () and {} in the output
02:51:03 <oklopol> okay i need to go to sleep :P
03:16:10 <oerjan> +ul (()(*))(~:^!(:)~*(*)*a~^~^:S( )Sa*~:^):^
03:16:11 <thutubot> * ** ****** ************************ ************************************************************************************************************************ ...too much output!
03:18:27 <oerjan> +ul ((*)())(~:^!(**)*a~^*:S( )Sa*~:^):^
03:18:28 <thutubot> * **** ********* **************** ************************* ************************************ ************************************************* ...too much output!
03:57:47 <oerjan> +ul ((0)(1))(~:^:Sa~a~*a~^a~a*a*~:^)(0)S:^
03:57:49 <thutubot> 01(1)(0)((1)(0))((0)(1))(((1)(0))((0)(1)))(((0)(1))((1)(0)))((((1)(0))((0)(1)))(((0)(1))((1)(0))))((((0)(1))((1)(0)))(((1)(0))((0)(1))))(((((1)(0))((0)(1)))(((0)(1))((1)(0))))((((0)(1))((1)(0)))(((1)(0))((0)(1)))))(((((0)(1))((1)(0)))(((1)(0))((0)(1))))((((1)(0))((0)(1)))(((0)(1))((1)(0))))) ...too much output!
04:00:14 <oerjan> +ul ((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^)(0)S:^
04:00:15 <thutubot> 0110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110100101100110100101101001100101100110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110 ...too much output!
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05:12:16 <GregorR> http://purdueextremecroquet.org/
05:14:33 <GregorR> And yet I just keep on rererererelinking it 8-D
05:24:24 <oklopol> so, doesn't croquet have this rule where you get to strike the opponent's ball anywhere you like as far as you can, if you get your balls to touch
05:28:08 <GregorR> If that wasn't part of the rules, it wouldn't be croquet at all.
05:28:16 <GregorR> There's a reason that's called the /croquet/ shot.
05:28:18 <fizzie> Wasn't that oerjan's underload loop a bit too complicated? Although I did have to bump up fungot's Underload time limits for this too:
05:28:26 <fizzie> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
05:28:40 <oklopol> for some reason i thought something there contradicted it or something.
05:28:42 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
05:28:43 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
05:29:00 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
05:29:00 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
05:29:16 <oklopol> 11.4: (Replace) Players must make a reasonable effort not to interfere with
05:29:16 <oklopol> their own or others' balls. If a player accidentally moves a ball that was at
05:29:16 <oklopol> rest, that player must replace the ball without penalty.
05:29:17 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
05:29:18 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
05:29:22 <fizzie> Of course fungot's so slow that's not much of a loop.
05:29:35 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
05:29:35 <fungot> fizzie: every single orchestration and band scoring text i've checked gives the range of the ' ' mensa magazine" may not be confirmed. and i mean come on, at what age is the dividing line between
05:29:35 -!- fungot has left (?).
05:29:35 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
05:29:37 <GregorR> oklopol: That's not as a result of a shot, that's if they trip over the ball or whatnot.
05:29:44 <GregorR> oklopol: You need to read that into context to see the real meaning :P
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05:30:18 <oklopol> GregorR: yeah it's clear it means that.
05:30:41 <oklopol> only an idiot would not realize that.
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05:32:47 <oklopol> GregorR: anyway, my point was exactly that if you had removed that rule, you shouldn't be calling it croquet
05:33:03 <GregorR> oklopol: I totally agree with that. Good thing I didn't remove that rule :P
05:34:06 <oklopol> (okay i prolly just would've said it makes the game a lot less fun, and less strategical; the poetic reference to the name was all yours.)
05:34:15 <GregorR> So, does everybody know that "uber" is officially dead?
05:34:45 <oklopol> you mean, using the incorrect umlautless german word for "over" to mean "supahcool"?
05:34:59 <GregorR> It was used in a commercial for feminine pads, and is therefore no longer to be used.
05:35:12 <oklopol> err what are feminine pads?
05:35:33 <oklopol> i did not know this, i thought it died ages ago :D
05:35:59 <GregorR> ... I so don't want to explain this ... pads that collect the ... flow ... from the monthly feminine .. predicament.
05:36:25 <oklopol> oh you mean menstrual filters
05:36:53 <GregorR> Uhhhhh, suuuure, except that none of those terms are used :P
05:39:09 <oklopol> i thought feminine pads were more like those things kids use for swimming, the things you attach to their arms
05:40:11 <oklopol> the other guess was dance pads for dance dance revolution
05:40:19 <GregorR> Actually, they said "an uber-absorbent material", but eh.
05:41:03 <oklopol> but i can't have seen the ad
05:41:39 <oklopol> also exam about word and excel in 20 minutes, this is going to be sweet
05:46:03 <GregorR> <oklopol> also exam about word and excel in 20 minutes, this is going to be sweet
05:46:40 <oklopol> the sweet part or just the exam part
05:48:20 <oklopol> yeah, it's a bit of a wtf, they've started teaching us cs students computer basics obligatorily now
05:48:38 <oklopol> and i hate it, because i had to learn to use word, which is an ugly program
05:48:43 <GregorR> Hahaha, your college sucks.
05:49:31 <GregorR> At Purdue and PSU all the undergrad CS is done on UNIX, so even if they DID make the baby stuff mandatory it'd be with better software.
05:49:52 <lament> word is pretty much the best for what it does.
05:50:16 <oklopol> lament: wordpad opens faster.
05:50:22 <oklopol> that's really all that matters.
05:50:36 <oklopol> GregorR: we have a unix part too
05:50:53 <lament> GregorR: and far, far slower to write stuff in
05:51:05 <GregorR> lament: That example /might/ have been sarcastic :P
05:51:09 <oklopol> but that's a lot simpler, just some catting and pipering
05:52:31 <oklopol> anyway, i don't dislike the fact we have windows as much as i dislike the fact we're taught about computers in general, i don't care about computers, i wanna learn computer science
05:52:54 <fizzie> I think we had a Windows Word/Excel/something part in the obligatory-for-all-students-not-just-CS "this is how you use them computers" course; I don't think I've had to touch a windows box since then.
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06:16:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | INTERCAL's probably better for really complex programs, but writing such in esolangs is normally inadvisable anyway.
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08:39:30 <ais523> <oerjan> where are those {} from? <--- you hit a bug in Thutubot's error handling, I think, it uses those internally
08:40:13 <ais523> <oklopol> seems output is only done at the end of execution, and failure triggers a raw output mode <--- yes, I think that's exactly what's happening, probably
08:41:09 <ais523> it uses {{ }} internally to distinguish inside parens from outside parens
08:41:40 <ais523> and the = you came up with is used internally by Thutu for things, you definitely hit a Thutubot bug if you can get one of those in the output without putting it in the input
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09:48:25 <ais523> puzzlet: afternoon according to your client
09:48:30 <ais523> which time zone is that, by the way?
09:49:14 <puzzlet> 5:49 PM, normal in South Korea
09:49:40 <ais523> 8 hours ahead of the UK
09:49:58 <ais523> grr, always get time zones backwards...
09:50:18 <puzzlet> i'm always confused with tz
10:01:14 <pikhq> (pikhq here saying: all-nighters to get your homework done suck balls.
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10:31:19 <fizzie> Shouldn't do the "it's a small change, I won't bother testing locally" thing.
10:31:32 <ais523> testing locally is normally faster
10:31:55 <ais523> now, I just have to figure whether me or AnMaster wrote the topic
10:32:02 <ais523> it's AnMasterish language, but I suspect it was me
10:32:51 <AnMaster> ais523, and how is it "AnMasterish language"?
10:33:02 <ais523> the use of the word "such" there looks weird
10:33:06 <ais523> but I can understand that I might do that
10:33:14 <fizzie> Awww, I just lost the state file.
10:33:19 <AnMaster> what would you recommend isntead?
10:33:50 <fizzie> There goes my ^cho and ^choo reimplementations, and the nifty pow2. Although they're all in IRC logs.
10:34:03 <fizzie> I have a "backup" copy of the state file, but it's old.
10:34:42 <oklopol> AnMaster: "writing those in esolangs"?
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10:34:51 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc xaa enctst copy badrot13 chtopic top topiccode compat_cat trulyawfulrot13 rot26 me echochohoo lolercakes echo_cho_ho_o baddoubles ul test
10:35:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, I don't think I said the line in topic
10:35:57 <AnMaster> but yeah I guess that makes more sense in English
10:36:14 <AnMaster> that's a lot of commands fizzie
10:36:29 <fizzie> Many of them make no sense, that's why I removed some of 'em.
10:36:52 <fizzie> That's curious; the line in topic doesn't appear in my logs. I must've not been here when it was said.
10:37:31 <ais523> well, at least that one's back
10:37:40 <ais523> but most of it is just CO2Games spam
10:37:41 <fizzie> I already "reimplemented" it as ^cho.
10:37:54 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc
10:38:30 <fizzie> ^def cho bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
10:38:39 <fizzie> ^def choo bf >,[>,]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
10:39:04 <fizzie> Whooopsie, there's still a bug in "^save", which means that whatever I did there was completely for naught.
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10:40:24 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul cho choo
10:40:39 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
10:40:39 <fizzie> (Did those commands in the query before bringing it on-channel.)
10:40:51 <ais523> what are cho and choo?
10:40:53 <fizzie> Oh, I still haven't remembered the ^bool in help.
10:41:03 <fizzie> ais523: ^echochohoo and ^echo_cho_ho_o.
10:41:26 <fungot> fungot ungot ngot got ot t
10:41:33 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul cho choo
10:41:35 <ais523> no, it's just being slow for some reason
10:41:46 <AnMaster> ais523, the ^fib didn't work it seems
10:41:48 <fizzie> It's slow because I have raised the brainfuck cycle count.
10:41:54 <fizzie> And I think fib got borkened at some point.
10:41:57 <fungot> >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][]
10:42:03 <fizzie> Hmm, no. That looks sensible.
10:42:14 <fizzie> On first glance, anyway.
10:42:14 <ais523> the [] at the end is suspicious
10:42:18 <ais523> but it might just have been a header comment
10:43:00 <AnMaster> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
10:43:14 <fizzie> There seems to be some extra []s.
10:43:15 <AnMaster> looks like several saved ones are borked
10:43:24 <fizzie> And it was ^wc that had gotten borkeded earlier, I think.
10:44:05 <fungot> ,[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+14<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>>+5[<-5>-]<2-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+
10:44:20 <ais523> there has to be a shorter way to write rot13...
10:44:30 <fizzie> ais523: There is, but that one executes very fast.
10:44:40 <AnMaster> ais523, well that one is too long for an irc line too
10:44:45 <ais523> it's an unrolled switch statement
10:45:25 <AnMaster> ais523, ah that reminds me, how goes gcc-bf?
10:45:44 <pikhq> This is the earliest I've been up in months.
10:45:58 <pikhq> Damned all-nighters.
10:46:30 <pikhq> 5:00, and I'm not done with calculus yet.
10:47:21 <fizzie> Actually I think I've just broken the "..." and maybe "... out of time" outputs.
10:47:47 <fizzie> That one still works, but I think the "too much output" one doesn't.
10:47:55 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2
10:48:24 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
10:50:11 <fizzie> It's actually a bit curious that it doesn't completely crash there; it goes completely off the route.
10:50:34 <ais523> does it hit a stray ^ or something when it comes back from the other side of the program?
10:50:53 <fizzie> I think it hits a "o" in a comment, reflects, goes back to the | where it went lost but takes the other branch this time and uses the normal exit.
10:51:33 <fungot> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP> ...
10:51:39 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
10:51:41 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ...
10:51:51 <fizzie> Witness the power of this fully operational Befunge bot.
10:54:34 <fizzie> fungot: I don't suppose I messed up your language skills when doing those changes?
10:54:34 <fungot> fizzie: the article does not meet the guidelines on neutrality and stability required for ga status. the focus should be in " description" fnord 22:23, 16 january 2007 ( utc)) hendrix remains an extremely influential figure in music the article, and in the end, we can quote him in support of his clean air fnord to the statements in fnord
10:56:03 <fizzie> I think that was a "no".
10:56:32 <ais523> it's surprising how Wikipedia-like fungot's comments are atm
10:56:33 <fungot> ais523: this article is strangely absent of scientific backup. please wikipedians interested in this line of thought. i know nothing about the middle name thing until yesterday ( i knew about mi funding for jeugkrag, or that ' ' some more"
10:58:42 <fizzie> It's also a bit surprising how well it worked even without stripping any of the MediaWiki markup. (Although fungot strips out all unrecognized punctuation.)
10:58:42 <fungot> fizzie: ' ' shake" the fnord or system of which that position is a part of total cost of operation are the maintenance and support direct and indirect casulties included. why aren't you following clear guideline?
10:58:45 <fungot> AnMaster: i also threw together a fnord transportation section from former edits still needs work, but seriously i thought it was fnord fnord source: corporate.wwe.com user:sephiroth stormsephiroth storm 16:26, 21 april 2008 ( utc
10:59:08 <AnMaster> (the sad thing is that both WP:WP and WP:ACRONYM actually seem to exist.....)
10:59:08 <ais523> fungot: MediaWiki markup for bold seems to confuse it most often
10:59:08 <fungot> ais523: there has been in the relationship between the gallon and the bushel that is not clear what meaning the author intended to convey.
10:59:25 <ais523> AnMaster: the WP: shortcuts are designed to be easy to remember
10:59:28 <fizzie> Yes, since 's are recognized as stuff.
10:59:29 <ais523> and so they make lots of spares
10:59:48 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and making a joke of them by saying WP:WP doesn't work since that seems to lead to a list of all WP:*
11:00:26 <ais523> I mean, what's wrong with having WP:WP be about WP: pages?
11:00:48 <AnMaster> ais523, nothing, however it is ruins a good joke
11:03:11 <fizzie> Need to restart since I don't have a ^reload-state command yet...
11:03:17 <fizzie> ^raw QUIT :my mind is going!
11:03:17 -!- fungot has quit ("my mind is going!").
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11:13:23 <AnMaster> I *think* I may have a working solution to the issue with funge space bounds updates
11:13:49 <AnMaster> it is messy but seems to work correctly when ATHR isn't used and should work ok with ATHR loaded
11:16:46 <Ilari> What's ATHR? Any URL describing it?
11:17:12 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/jT1WV348.html
11:18:33 <AnMaster> Ilari, I have a partly done implementation
11:47:43 <AnMaster> Ilari, well what do you think of it?
11:48:32 <Ilari> AnMaster: Pretty standard async threads library (aside of odd terminology used, as is normal in esolangs)...
11:49:00 <AnMaster> it is difficult to implement though
11:49:15 <AnMaster> even though I'm doing it in a language with built in support for concurrency
11:49:44 <Ilari> AnMaster: One thing stood up: S reflects both on error and in child. Using it correctly requires recognizing wheither forward thread exists or not...
11:50:49 <AnMaster> the reason 1) t (sync thread, round robin, standard funge) reflects child. 2) Most funge instructions reflect on errors
11:51:37 <AnMaster> (and so far I only implemented some core changes and such, not the actual fingerprint interface, so it would be easy to change)
11:51:54 <Ilari> AnMaster: Recognizing forward thread of t is easier due to its synchronous nature than recognizing the forward thread of S.
11:52:35 <AnMaster> Ilari, So do you have a good solution?
11:53:33 <Ilari> AnMaster: Nope. Splitting left and right only works in two dimensions, so it really can't be used...
11:54:19 <AnMaster> Ilari, hm? It works up/down too
11:54:26 <AnMaster> it is "opposite direction" simply
11:54:35 <AnMaster> so it means you can get it from any delta
11:54:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: he meant turning one like [ and the other ]
11:57:47 <Ilari> Well, one could implement recognizing if there was spawn-and-borrow-in-child instruction...
11:58:20 <AnMaster> Ilari, "borrow in child"? what would that do?
11:58:28 <Ilari> Or if S returned return value like fork() does...
11:59:10 <Ilari> AnMaster: It borrows book that has given number in child immediately after creating the child (atomically).
11:59:59 <AnMaster> Ilari, well that would be highly complex considering that my ATHR is planned to work distributed (current version won't, need to add local funge-space cache or such)
12:00:47 <AnMaster> if it is only atomic against parent it could work
12:00:51 <Ilari> AnMaster: It is entierely possible to generate IDs in distributed way (if the space to choose from is large enough).
12:01:15 <AnMaster> well yeah it is, my funge is bignum ;P
12:01:31 <Ilari> AnMaster: Well, locking only has to be atomic with respect to parent...
12:01:52 <AnMaster> hm would doing that or doing like fork be best I wonder.
12:02:18 <Ilari> AnMaster: The fork way would be easier for programmer...
12:03:01 <Ilari> AnMaster: Umm... Nope. :-)
12:04:26 <AnMaster> Ilari, still I think ATHR may be quite easy to use, while it looks complex. The terminology helps with that a bit I guess.
12:04:38 <AnMaster> and that could actually be a goal
12:08:19 <Ilari> AnMaster: Or it could even be simple 0 => success, 1 => failure in reflected thread...
12:08:50 <AnMaster> Ilari, yes that could work. So child gets 0 or 1?
12:08:51 <Ilari> AnMaster: No real need to have that in forward thread, as it impiles success anyway.
12:09:10 <AnMaster> Ilari, the check of thread id could also be used I think
12:09:26 <Ilari> AnMaster: Yea. That would work...
12:09:38 <Ilari> AnMaster: So no real need to add anything new... :-)
12:09:54 <AnMaster> and would need no change. Plus it is easy but not obvious until you think of it. (If you see what I mean)
12:09:58 <fizzie> Phew; fixed (hopefully) all the places where fungot was hardcoded to brainfuck. Now it lets you specify underload programs... unfortunately those aren't interpreted yet.
12:09:58 <fungot> fizzie: i'm sure i'm not the person who wrote the letter that keeps being removed. fnord 00:05, 30 august 2008 ( utc
12:10:37 <fizzie> No, it just won't do anything.
12:11:01 <fizzie> Now I need to stick the underload interpreter in the correct place and mangle it a bit to read the program from the right place.
12:12:24 <fizzie> Oh, and it needs some sort of cycle counter to handle infinite loops.
12:16:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | got it..
12:38:18 <ais523> I won't be evil and write an infinite loop
12:38:32 <ais523> fizzie: one trick worth knowing in Underload is that it's impossible to have an infinite loop without the : command
12:38:38 <ais523> so if it's easier, you can just count colons
12:41:40 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
12:41:47 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 foo
12:41:59 <fungot> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP> ...
12:42:12 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 foo
12:42:19 <AnMaster> didn't hang on input of course
12:42:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, didn't you filter non-printable before?
12:43:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, also for cycle counter, what about using t and having another thread insert a "abort" if it takes too long?
12:59:26 <fizzie> That might be better, but harder to arrange than a simple count of executed Underload instructions.
12:59:46 <fizzie> Although the underload instructions do take a rather variable amount of time and stack space.
13:00:22 <fizzie> I'm not sure who wanted it to filter only newlines; at least CTCP-annoying is now possible with it.
13:00:39 <fizzie> And the current ^ul command is still the brainfuck one.
13:01:10 <fizzie> I'm still mashing that interpreter in, and even in my local copy only "^def foo ul ..." + "^foo" work; I'll have to add a separate command for ^ul.
13:23:43 <fizzie> There are probably bazillion bugs left, but...
13:24:09 <fizzie> (The 'show' command still shows the brainfuck version, but that's not what it uses.)
13:24:47 <fizzie> Also just a quick test...
13:24:48 <fizzie> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:48 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:49 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:49 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:49 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:49 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:50 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:50 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:50 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:50 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:51 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:51 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:51 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:52 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:52 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:53 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:53 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:55 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:55 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
13:24:57 -!- fungot has left (?).
13:25:08 <fizzie> Yes, that would be a good idea.
13:25:37 -!- fungot has joined.
13:26:01 <fizzie> Well, no output is still no output.
13:26:03 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 foo
13:26:39 <fizzie> Oh, I've forgotten to add a output length limit thing.
13:27:55 <oklopol> AnMaster: space is not an underload command
13:28:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, I was just checking mismatched ()
13:28:24 <fizzie> ) is not a valid instruction.
13:28:41 <fizzie> It doesn't handle ) as a instruction, just when parsing (.
13:29:03 <oklopol> fizzie: why did that (crash) thing crash?
13:29:04 <AnMaster> how would you push a ( or a ) on the stack?
13:29:15 <fizzie> oklopol: I don't know; it works in the stand-alone interpreter.
13:29:19 <thutubot> crashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrash ...too much output!
13:29:59 <ehird> <AnMaster> how would you push a ( or a ) on the stack?
13:30:05 <oklopol> i should really get me some kebab
13:30:37 <AnMaster> a Encloses the top element of the stack in a pair of parentheses. <-- ah
13:30:46 <ehird> that doesn't let you get unbalanced parentheses
13:30:54 <ehird> which you can already do
13:31:02 <AnMaster> ehird, so how would you simulate a string with unbalanced ( ) in?
13:31:12 <AnMaster> ehird, so you can't output that?
13:31:25 <oklopol> AnMaster: simulating strings is quite complicated in general
13:32:00 <fizzie> That 'crashcrashcrash...' output is what I was hoping for. Well, actually I was expecting it to crash in some way, since it's an infinite loop; the cycle-counter would've stopped it at some point, but...
13:32:02 <oklopol> i mean, you cannot exactly use the actual strings as strings
13:32:08 <oklopol> if you want to be able to do something with them
13:32:25 <fizzie> Hmm, maybe the cycle-counter exit goes to the "out of stack" message accidentally or something.
13:33:19 <AnMaster> shouldn't they say out of stack or did I misunderstand?
13:33:20 <fizzie> That's still no output.
13:33:33 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 foo
13:33:39 <fizzie> It's not "out of stack"; that one is stack underflow, actually.
13:33:41 <AnMaster> fungot didn't say anything though
13:33:41 <fungot> AnMaster: as for the " popular engineering audience" ( although nobody else has that as their whole fnord 03:58, 30 march 2007 ( utc)'" with all due respect, it embraced a much broader category of theory than just the appearance of fnord,
13:33:51 <fizzie> It's a bit work-in-progress.
13:35:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, "stack underflow"? Hm wouldn't it keep duplicating all the time?
13:35:17 <fizzie> Yes, I mean, the "out of stack" message means "stack underflow".
13:36:02 <fizzie> It's funny that the cycle-counter stoppage -- which I think happens with (:^):^ -- doesn't say anything.
13:36:36 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Self-interpreter <-- hahah
13:37:22 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Reserved_characters <-- ???
13:37:33 <oklopol> i'd say ^ is the self-interpreter, and not really cheating.
13:37:33 <AnMaster> it seems to say that " should be quoted with "?
13:37:43 <oklopol> well cheating in that it's just an eval
13:37:49 <ais523> but everyone ignores that rule, even me
13:37:54 <ais523> so I should remove it from the language some time
13:38:55 <AnMaster> ais523, how the heck do you do flow control in underload?
13:39:06 <fizzie> What the... now I get "bad insn!" out of ^.
13:39:11 <ais523> AnMaster: generally by generating code and doign ^
13:39:38 -!- deveah has joined.
13:39:50 <fizzie> Am I having the same version here...
13:39:51 <AnMaster> ais523, what would you use for an "if top value of stack is a, do foo, otherwise do bar"
13:40:11 <ais523> for instance to run code iff TOS is 0, you can do :(code here)~(!())~^^^
13:40:12 <fizzie> That gives me "bad insn" locally. I think I messed something up.
13:40:42 <AnMaster> ais523, how does that make it conditional?
13:40:57 <oklopol> ais523: won't that run it N times where N is the number?
13:41:06 <ais523> because I'm not running it N times
13:41:10 <ais523> but 0 to the power N time
13:41:19 <ais523> and 0 to the power 0 is 1, but 0 to the power anything else is 0
13:41:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't figure out how ":(code here)~(!())~^^^" works
13:41:45 <oklopol> i wrote an isZero yesterday, and it was a lot longer
13:42:48 <oklopol> but well, in a language like underload, there's either a reeeeeally simple way, or you have to actually go through the logic, which results in tons of code
13:42:58 <AnMaster> before the first ^ in that... stack would be "value code !() value"?
13:43:48 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't that ! run unconditionally?
13:44:05 <ais523> well, it puts the code underneath 0 underneath the number that you're depending on
13:44:13 <ais523> then it evaluates the number you're depending on and makes that many copies of 0
13:44:21 <ais523> if it makes any copies of 0, they eliminate the (code here) and replace it with the null string
13:44:25 <ais523> then you run either the code here, or the null string
13:44:35 <ais523> because it might itself have been eliminated
13:44:37 <AnMaster> ais523, wait, where does it make copies?
13:44:39 <ais523> basically, if the TOS is (!()), the (code here) runs
13:44:43 <ais523> if the TOS is a positive number, the (code here) doesn't
13:44:45 <ais523> so it's equivalent to if(!x) { codehere; }
13:44:47 <ais523> AnMaster: the number itself makes copies
13:44:49 <ais523> that's how Underload numbers work
13:44:53 <ais523> 0 makes 0 copies of the TOS
13:45:18 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't see it mentioned on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload ?
13:45:27 <ais523> they aren't built into the lang
13:45:31 <ais523> it's just the normal way to define numbers
13:45:43 <ais523> (!()) () (:*) (::**) (:::***) (::::****) and so on
13:46:01 <oklopol> oh, right, of course that's 1
13:46:03 <ais523> oklopol: null string is the correct output there
13:46:09 <ais523> 0 to the power 0 is 1...
13:46:09 <AnMaster> ais523, so... is underload actually tc?
13:46:18 <ais523> I have an ski to Underload compiler
13:46:24 <ais523> and a BF-minus-input to Underload compiler
13:46:29 <oklopol> yeah, it was just my "oh empty input something's wrong" reflex
13:46:30 <AnMaster> also where did 0 to the power of 0 get into it?
13:46:45 <ais523> <oklopol> +ul (!())(!())^S <--- calculate 0 to the power 0
13:47:09 <ais523> AnMaster: what made you think Underload wasn't TC?
13:47:17 <ais523> I picked the commands very carefully to make it a tarpit
13:47:28 <AnMaster> ais523, just that I couldn't figure out non-trivial flow control
13:47:45 <oklopol> ais523: 0^0 is indeed 1, but when exponentiation is done like that, i don't automatically trust it works on the corner cases
13:47:48 <thutubot> ::::****::::****::::****::::****::::****
13:47:51 <ais523> flow control is interesting in Underload, but very neat once you get used to it
13:48:02 <oklopol> not everyone even defines 0^0 as 1
13:48:11 <AnMaster> ais523, also you can't do "bf minus input", you can't output unbalanced () after all
13:48:15 <ais523> well, but Church numerals have 0^0 as 0
13:48:20 <ais523> AnMaster: I output them as ?
13:48:25 <ais523> different character set...
13:48:35 <pikhq> I define 0^0 as 0^^(0^0)
13:48:40 <ais523> also, when 0 is defined as "make 0 copies"
13:48:45 <AnMaster> ais523, still I'd argue that isn't "bf-complete except input"
13:48:48 <ais523> then it makes intuitive sense for 0 to the power 0 to be 1
13:48:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Can your BF implementation output klingon characters?
13:49:04 <fizzie> Wow, there was an utter bug in ^.
13:49:05 <ehird> No? It's not output-complete then.
13:49:08 <ais523> AnMaster: BF-complete except input and output of some characters, are you happy now?
13:49:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, I just output the bytes needed
13:49:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Klingon is not in unicode.
13:49:57 <AnMaster> ehird, well if it doesn't have a code point then it could be hard. And that wasn't the point
13:50:01 <AnMaster> I never said "output complete"
13:50:14 <ehird> AnMaster: The character set that underload uses happens to not have the code point that ( and ) are on.
13:50:18 <ehird> Also, BF does not define the output character set.
13:50:31 <ais523> AnMaster: http://paste.eso-std.org/b
13:50:35 <AnMaster> indeed it doesn't. it just allows you to output any value between 0 and 255
13:50:54 <fizzie> Hey, the out-of-timeity works.
13:51:04 <fungot> crashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashcrashc
13:51:11 <AnMaster> ais523, I suggest a pastebin that doesn't result in a download dialog next time ;P
13:51:14 <fizzie> fungot: Are you still alive after that?
13:51:15 <fungot> fizzie: the politically based content of the section is to be barefoot and pregnant, augmented, pregnant and augmented), the rotational kinetic energy: i will change the introduction accordingly. user:barnaby dawsonbarnaby dawson 09:16, 24 july 2006 ( utc
13:51:17 <ehird> AnMaster: That is intentional.
13:51:45 <ais523> AnMaster: so your editor does the syntax highlighting
13:51:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Your editor is a better syntax-highlighter & code navigator than some web script.
13:51:56 <ehird> My browser, at least, when I click, opens it directly in my editor.
13:52:08 <ais523> so do both the ones I've tried
13:52:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I'd just like to view it raw in web browser, no highlighting
13:52:15 <ais523> although Firefox goes via a dialog box
13:52:17 <AnMaster> and when I open it I gets a html page
13:52:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Why do you want to view it raw in a web browser?
13:52:38 <ehird> Don't you want to read code how you configured emacs to do it?
13:52:48 <ehird> If not, why not? What do you use instead?
13:53:01 <AnMaster> ehird, ? I just like a raw text view
13:53:17 <AnMaster> I normally only use minimal level of syntax highlighting
13:53:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Then open it in a raw text editor.
13:53:42 <ehird> Do whatever you'd do to read code normally. You know more about that than a website does.
13:53:55 <ehird> If you configure your browser properly, it'll open in what you want.
13:54:09 <AnMaster> ehird, what if I want it to open in firefox? ;P
13:54:12 <ais523> <ehird> If you configure your browser properly <--- I suspect only about 3 people have done that...
13:54:28 <ehird> AnMaster: You'd configure open with -> Firefox.
13:54:32 <ehird> But why do you want to read code in firefox?
13:54:43 <ehird> What makes it more superior than, say, gedit, for unhighlighted text/
13:54:46 <ehird> Or kate, or whatever.
13:54:47 <ais523> well, I loaded it in Firefox
13:54:49 <ais523> so as to be able to run it
13:54:50 <ehird> Why is it superior?
13:54:55 <ehird> It's not in any way.
13:55:00 <AnMaster> ehird, it means no need to change to another program
13:55:09 <AnMaster> just viewing it quickly in the same app is faster
13:55:16 <ehird> AnMaster: The fact that your desktop environment is hostile to multitasking is not my problem, sorry.
13:56:06 <ehird> I'm merely stating that the only reason you want to view it in firefox is because your system apparently cannot handle easy usage of more than one application at once.
13:56:07 <AnMaster> ehird, idea. offer a ?mode=raw
13:56:24 <ehird> Because there is no justification for it.
13:56:32 <AnMaster> ehird, the reason is that I prefer it that way
13:56:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Then configure _your_ client to use it that way.
13:56:43 <ehird> It is not a server issue.
13:57:11 <oklopol> i'm used to just looking at things in ff, and not having to click on an okay-button; not sure AnMaster is comfortable with saying pressing the button is just too hard, i most certainly am.
13:57:27 <AnMaster> very well I recommend pastebin.ca or rafb.net/paste or paste.lisp.org/new
13:57:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Unlikely to happen, as both I and ais523 prefer it that way.
14:00:20 <oklopol> nah nevermind i'll go buy some food ->
14:02:32 <ais523> AnMaster: that's interesting... I'd argue that doing something that's both utterly unexpected and technically correct is correct behaviour for an ESO pastebin
14:03:09 <ais523> ehird: AnMaster told me not to paste on eso-std.org because he didn't want to read pastes there
14:03:26 <ehird> ais523: please stop talking in #esoteric, i don't want to read your messages here
14:03:40 <ais523> well, not quite like that
14:03:44 <ais523> he said that if I did he wouldn't read them
14:03:57 <ehird> what an excellent idea
14:03:57 <ais523> which is more reasonable than what I accidentally portrayed him as saying...
14:04:19 <ehird> "I don't want to configure my client to be reasonable, therefore the website is at fault, therefore I am extorting you not to use it"
14:04:30 <ais523> ehird: the problem here is that nobody's client is reasonable
14:04:36 <ehird> it works absolutely fine
14:04:37 <ais523> thus your request that people use a reasonable client is unreasonable
14:04:44 <ehird> and i didn't even need to configure it
14:04:50 <ehird> so at least one person's client is reasonable.
14:04:54 <ais523> over here, Firefox puts up a dialog box, Konq downloads directly to editor without a prompt
14:05:09 <ehird> My browser does the konq behaviour.
14:05:11 <ehird> Which is reasonable.
14:05:13 <ais523> however, working like that is not how AnMaster wants it to work, obviosuly
14:05:13 <ehird> You click a link, the document appears.
14:05:24 <ehird> Why obviously? What is the problem with getting a document up when you request for it?
14:06:01 <ais523> I suppose it's a similar argument as a page obnoxiously opening in a new window
14:06:15 <AnMaster> well in konq it opens inline kwrite, which is horrible IMO
14:06:22 <ehird> AnMaster: So configure it.
14:06:26 <AnMaster> and I normally end up using ff because it works better
14:06:28 <ais523> and Kate isn't horrible IMO
14:06:42 <AnMaster> ais523, kate is a bit better, but I prefer emacs most of the time
14:07:02 <ais523> Kate is one of the better designed-for-GUI editors I know
14:07:05 <ehird> AnMaster: In the time it's taking you to tell ais523 to stop using it and to tell me to break it, you could have configured it 50 times over.
14:07:05 <AnMaster> and with just syntax highlight of keywords (bold) and comments (blue)
14:07:10 <ais523> Emacs is still a console application really
14:07:24 <ais523> and Kate's syntax highlighter is really good IME
14:07:27 <AnMaster> ais523, well that is what I use it as (emacs in console)
14:07:32 <ais523> about as good as Emacs'
14:07:40 * ais523 tries opening paste.eso-std.org/b in w3m
14:07:48 <AnMaster> ais523, well it lacks a way to script it
14:08:12 <ais523> hmm... w3m just displays it inline, just like AnMaster asked
14:08:27 <ais523> (because Content-Disposition: isn't in the spec, IIRC)
14:08:48 <ehird> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2183.txt
14:09:18 <ais523> ok, so Microsoft are just-about catching up to it now then?
14:09:30 <ehird> they haven't managed html4 yet.
14:09:40 <ehird> hmm, that's later.
14:24:50 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:25:12 <AnMaster> Hm how easy is it to golf using scheme?
14:25:59 <ais523> AnMaster: it's 20th on Anagolf
14:26:14 <ais523> which implies slightly harder than in BASIC, but slightly easier than in Io
14:26:34 <AnMaster> ais523, don't know either of those languages, but how many are there on that list in total?
14:26:45 <ais523> 63, but some of them are esolangs
14:27:11 <ais523> GolfScript is winning ofc
14:27:44 <ais523> it's a good place to practice programming too, btw
14:27:52 <ais523> even though many of the problems are buggy or cheatable
14:28:25 <AnMaster> (define (x y)(define c 0)(lambda ()(set! c (+ c y)) c))(define a (x 2))
14:28:45 <AnMaster> using (define d define) seems to make it longer actually
14:29:21 <ais523> the existence of a set! in there implies you possibly aren't doing it the right way
14:30:06 <ais523> even so, would passing it as an argument to everything monad-style be shorter or longer?
14:30:08 <AnMaster> non-golfed version was (define make-counter-adder (lambda (x) (define counter 0) (lambda () (set! counter (+ counter x)) counter)))
14:30:39 <AnMaster> ais523, and I was just checking for how golfable it was
14:31:30 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway how would you suggest that, with the same resulting function signature for the constructed functions
14:31:44 <ais523> they wouldn't have the same signature, that's the whole point...
14:32:30 <AnMaster> ais523, so you suggest building functions like (whatever value) then?
14:34:43 <AnMaster> (define (x y)(lambda (z)(+ z y)))
14:35:09 <ehird> Is AnMaster trying tto learn scheme?
14:35:23 <AnMaster> I'm evaluating how golfable it is
14:35:28 <ais523> ehird: he's trying to golf Scheme
14:35:40 <ehird> it's not that golfable
14:35:41 <AnMaster> ais523, rather: checking how golfable it is
14:35:43 <ehird> common lisp is very golfable
14:35:55 <ehird> due to its myriad of short-named functions and extra syntax up the wazoo
14:36:00 <ehird> but scheme is too minimal to be golfed effectively
14:36:18 <ais523> what's match-digit in Perl regexen?
14:37:58 <ehird> if anyone's wondering why most of the users there seem to be japanese (in their names & the language used in the descriptions and such) it's because 1. shinh is japanese 2. ruby has its largest userbase in japan 3. and golfing also seems to be really popular in japan
14:38:11 <ehird> the engrish gives it a nice touch, though.
14:38:41 <ehird> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?echo wtf? Perl cat is 7 chars long?
14:38:43 <ehird> Longer than I expected.
14:39:01 <ais523> it's a command-line option in Perl
14:39:16 <ais523> so it's actually only 1 char long in a practical Perl one-liner
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14:39:25 <ais523> but Anagolf doesn't let you specify command line args
14:40:27 <AnMaster> ehird, awk one is apperently of length 1
14:40:37 <ehird> the char is the space
14:40:40 <ehird> as awk behaves like that by default
14:40:53 <ais523> ehird: cat is 2 chars in HOMESPRING, IIRC
14:40:58 <ehird> and it'll need a full path
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14:41:38 <AnMaster> oh so exec is enabled for bash
14:41:49 <ais523> yep, bash is allowed to exec
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14:44:25 <ehird> AnMaster: submit it
14:44:32 <ehird> note that it's -93
14:44:43 <ehird> AnMaster: it tells you what your prorgam outputted
14:44:45 <ehird> and what was expected
14:44:47 <ehird> below the fail message
14:45:13 <ehird> does it work with -93?
14:45:23 <ehird> your program never exits
14:45:33 <ehird> then it takes more than 3 seconds to execute
14:45:55 <ais523> AnMaster: what is your program, and to do what?
14:46:23 <AnMaster> however anagolf thinks it fails to output
14:46:24 <ais523> AnMaster: ~ doesn't reflect on EOF in Befunge-93
14:46:33 <ais523> it inputs -1 instead, IIRC
14:46:53 <AnMaster> well it only said befunge, not befunge-93, they should clarify it then
14:47:03 <ehird> DOES IT WORK WITH -93
14:47:10 <ehird> also, BEFUNGE in common parlance MEANS BEFUNGE-93
14:47:19 <ehird> AnMaster: when i asked, i meant TEST IT
14:48:08 <AnMaster> ais523, it is not mentioned in http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/doc/befunge93.html
14:48:29 <ais523> well then I would expect -1 on EOF, that's what undefined stuff normally ends up doing
14:49:50 <AnMaster> Hm how can C++ version be longer than C version? After all you should save one char in the includes by doing <cstdio> instead of <stdio.h>
14:50:08 <ehird> because it'll use actual c++, probably
14:50:24 <AnMaster> ehird, but you can use C headers from inside C++
14:50:34 <ehird> so nobody thought of that
14:50:41 <ehird> why not submit your shorter version?
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14:51:35 * ehird considers writing overengineered, well-indented, commented, meaningful and easy-to-read code to anagolf just to make people go wtf when they see me at the bottom of the rankings
14:51:47 <ehird> 100 line hello world? you bet!
14:51:53 <fizzie> Also <cstdio> should put printf in the 'std' namespace.
14:52:25 <fizzie> My Underload interpreter is full of bugs. :/
14:52:31 <ehird> it's funny, anagolf shows that ruby actually beats perl a lot of the time
14:52:48 <ehird> perl generally beats it for just-regex kind of stuff, though
14:52:57 <fizzie> ^ul ((................)~:^):^
14:53:26 <fizzie> Hmm, the limits might be a bit too tight now. Set them with RC/Funge, while fungot's actually running on cfunge.
14:53:27 <fungot> fizzie: it would be interesting to see that the number of grades drop, the number of people in society actually behave in a rational, but more explicitly in his interviews, fergusson indicates that it was closed.
14:53:37 <fizzie> ^ul (((................)!)~*:^):^
14:53:41 <ehird> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Life+game/fsystem/1194358586&rb An amazing Game of Life.
14:56:10 <AnMaster> ehird, what language is that in?
14:56:23 <ehird> it only works for the inputs specifically tested
14:56:37 <ehird> it's just some clever compression along with a condition on the input
14:56:39 <AnMaster> hm randomized inputs would be better
14:56:52 <ehird> challenges are user-submitted
14:56:58 <ehird> well, technically you could enter a program that prints inputs
14:57:00 <ehird> but that's way more work
14:57:10 <ehird> people specifically mark them as cheats, generally
14:57:16 <ehird> they're still clever, for their compression
14:57:23 <AnMaster> well it could still be possible, say, random-string random-number
14:57:28 <Slereah_> <ehird> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Life+game/fsystem/1194358586&rb An amazing Game of Life. <- what language is this?
14:57:34 <ehird> Slereah_: Ruby, but it's a cheat
14:57:48 <ehird> It only works for the inputs that are tested.
14:58:10 <AnMaster> ehird, if it was me asking the second time you would just have told me to read scrollback
14:58:24 <ehird> AnMaster: No, I wouldn't, I'd have said the exact same thing while snarking about deja vu.
14:58:31 <ehird> I onyl say that when you actually word the question differently.
14:58:36 <ehird> But I was amused as he said the exact same thing.
14:59:01 <AnMaster> ehird, the question was worded differently
14:59:21 <ehird> [[what language is this?]]
14:59:25 <ehird> [[what language is that in?]]
15:00:30 <fizzie> Running "(((................)!)~*:^):^" under RC/Funge gives me an "unterminated (" error; I guess it's again some sort of fixed-maximum-size-in-STRN thing.
15:00:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, well cfunge have fixed max too, limited by size_t
15:01:09 <fizzie> That's a bit different from a fixed maximum of 1000, though.
15:01:31 <oerjan> ais523: btw your thutubot ul has bugs with {}, in case that's not intended
15:02:09 <AnMaster> ehird, btw creating a random generation system is quite easy
15:02:16 <AnMaster> you need something like a reverse regex
15:02:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Not. Easy. For. The. Submitting. Users.
15:02:39 <ehird> http://golf.shinh.org/mkprob.html = simple as hell and a low barrier to entry means they get submitted a lot.
15:02:52 <ehird> Also, cheats are accepted, generally. Just as long as they're marked as such.
15:03:23 <oerjan> ehird: one option would be to have a secret test case
15:03:39 <ehird> oerjan: except then if you had a bug in your submission you wouldn't be able to figure out what the problem is.
15:03:44 <ehird> = less submissions.
15:04:10 <AnMaster> however I don't consider something like: \rand[A-Z]{3,4} or such in a input format hard
15:04:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, it is, because they haev to learn it.
15:04:31 <Ilari> Context free grammars are easier to use as generators and somewhat easier to understand...
15:04:35 <ehird> Right now, they can think of a problem, describe it in english, and give a few examples.
15:04:38 <ehird> And submit. that's it.
15:04:49 <ehird> No coding or anything involved, just give some examples, say what you mean, and you're done.
15:05:11 <ehird> Additionally, submitters also have to learn how the generator works, so they know what to code for
15:05:22 <AnMaster> ehird, well it isn't really hard, you need one command \rand or whatever, followed by a range a-zA-Z0-9 or whatever in [], followed by how many chars
15:05:38 <AnMaster> and the site is for coders obviously
15:05:45 <ehird> You lost me at the part where you raised the barrier to entry by making me learn something knew, then testing it, making sure there aren't bugs, then finally submitting it.
15:05:58 <ehird> It's a lot easier to check for bugs in input->output pairs.
15:06:03 <ehird> Even now, people still get it worng
15:06:08 <ehird> and have to have shinh delete the broken ones.
15:06:34 <ehird> I've got it wrong before, it's not hard to mess up.
15:07:30 <ehird> you're missing what i mean
15:07:39 <ehird> often your script itself is buggy
15:07:42 <ehird> that generates the cases
15:09:11 <AnMaster> ehird, so how hard is it to make cat. \rand[a-zA-Z0-9]{1,100} -> \1
15:09:45 <ehird> I would happily submit my version, not yours.
15:10:02 <AnMaster> I guess regex doesn't come naturally to you then.
15:10:22 <oerjan> ais523: oh you already noted
15:10:28 <ehird> Does anyone feel like explaining to AnMaster how he's missing the point? I kind of think his brain might be a closed-world logical system.
15:10:33 <ehird> Tricky things, those.
15:10:53 <ehird> oklopol: everyone's always wrong, including you
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15:11:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, so what do you suggest?
15:11:12 <ehird> oerjan: no, you're wrong
15:11:21 <oerjan> ehird: you are _so_ right
15:11:46 <fungot> fizzie: this nickname is offensive to me as ive been told by 3 doctors i can never again fnord im certain you can imagine. i suggest:
15:12:02 <ehird> fungot's fnord capability was removed
15:12:02 <fungot> ehird: ok, this debate seems to be no sil code for alsatian. fnord ( user fnord)
15:12:07 <ehird> so now he's upset that he's still called fungot
15:12:08 <fungot> ehird: the article is disputed, or restore the tag. i believe a site with professional, crisp clear photos and illustrations would be proper for the new manager being adam chapman and series 10 fnord. the name of an illyrian tribe called the fnord page, and the grace budd image is in compliance with wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
15:12:11 <ehird> as fungot's hallmark is fnording
15:12:12 <fungot> ehird: in light of the resolution of the failed rfa and my proposal to fix it up some? fnord 06:22, 29 january 2008 ( utc)/small!-- template:unsignedip
15:12:15 <fungot> ehird: major points are appropriately cited.
15:12:31 <fizzie> Heh, he's a real Wikipedian.
15:12:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I agree that a non-programmer could easily mess up that generation, but anyone that can program (which I assume anagolf users are capable of) can easily understand it
15:12:51 <ehird> ais523: replace all the words in your wikipedia signature with fnord
15:13:18 <Slereah_> ais523: replace all the words in your wikipedia signature with <- with what?
15:13:41 <ehird> Slereah_: i dunno lol
15:14:19 <ehird> AnMaster: with ""?
15:15:01 <fizzie> Wikipedia "fnord" article has the explanation, though.
15:15:11 <ehird> AnMaster: an empty message? huh?
15:15:42 <Slereah_> AnMaster does not know what it means
15:15:49 <ehird> Slereah_: What what means?
15:15:51 <oerjan> ehird: i don't know there was something backward about it
15:15:57 <ehird> oerjan: yeah, it's odd
15:16:01 <ehird> AnMaster: fizzie said wikipedia
15:16:32 <ehird> Slereah_: gee, not knowing what "it" means?
15:16:41 <ehird> that's a basic word in english!
15:17:04 <Slereah_> ARE YOU DONE GOOGLING ANMASTER
15:17:16 <AnMaster> I'm reading on wikipedia since several minutes yes
15:17:29 <ehird> reading WHAT on wikipedia?!
15:17:49 <Slereah_> ehird : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-goat_sexual_intercourse
15:17:56 <ehird> Slereah_: Oh, okay.
15:18:02 <ehird> I was scared it'd be something ... weird.
15:18:06 <AnMaster> ehird, no Slereah_ isn't correct
15:18:14 <AnMaster> ehird, see http://xrl.us/oux4b
15:18:33 <Slereah_> It's full of syntaxic weirdness
15:18:43 <ehird> "is the typographic representation"
15:18:46 <ehird> The interjection ""
15:18:49 <ehird> "To see the means to be"
15:18:54 <AnMaster> Slereah_, see the url in the addressbar
15:19:05 <ehird> Huh, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
15:19:09 <ehird> Did someone vandalize the main page to that?
15:19:21 <AnMaster> ehird, no it is an easter egg in mediawiki
15:19:42 <ais523> ehird: what are you talking about?
15:19:55 <Slereah_> I probably won't read it again.
15:19:57 <ais523> it looks normal to me...
15:20:08 <Slereah_> It's a classic, but really, it's a terrible read
15:20:18 <Slereah_> It's over a thousand pages and the plot goes everywhere
15:20:48 <AnMaster> ais523, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fnord#The_Illuminatus.21_Trilogy explains it
15:21:06 <ehird> I think ais523 might just know.
15:21:09 <ehird> The point is he was d/c'd.
15:21:23 <AnMaster> ehird, yes so I tried to help him catch up
15:22:00 <ais523> although I'v ebeen having huge connection trouble
15:22:39 <ehird> <mircbot> ais523 submits 98B of Perl for Ranking __REVENGE__, ranking #1 (10000pts).
15:24:41 <ehird> <mircbot> ais523 submits 97B of Perl for Ranking __REVENGE__, ranking #1 (10000pts).
15:25:45 <ais523> chomp,$a++,print$b{/(\d+)$/,$1}||=$a," $_
15:25:45 <ais523> "for sort{(split/ /,$b)[-1]<=>(split/ /,$a)[-1]}<>
15:26:09 <ais523> also, I got it down to 93b
15:27:21 <ehird> <mircbot> ais523 submits 93B of Perl for Ranking __REVENGE__, ranking #1 (10000pts).
15:27:56 <ais523> is it randking within the lang, or something?
15:28:23 <oerjan> beware of the randking
15:28:29 <oerjan> he's totally unpredictable
15:29:22 <ehird> ranking within the lang, i think
15:46:30 * ais523 is disappointed that there aren't more Perlists on anagolf atm
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18:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I've had experience with bad project names, and this isn't one.
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18:28:07 <ais523> what's going on over here?
18:28:34 <AnMaster> ais523, I suggest you read scrollback, less than a screen since your last comment
18:28:44 <ais523> I don't have scrollback, connection problems
18:28:58 <AnMaster> * optbot has changed the topic to: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I've had experience with bad project names, and this isn't one
18:28:58 <AnMaster> <Slereah_> optbot, destroy lament
18:28:58 <optbot> AnMaster: Same year as the Turing machine, IIRC.
18:28:58 <optbot> AnMaster: "...and is not suitable for practical use." <-- i made an IRC bot in it
18:28:58 <optbot> AnMaster: 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0
18:29:35 <AnMaster> hm the webserver yaws look nice
18:29:59 <AnMaster> can't find any performance data however, and seems like docs are outdated
18:31:17 <AnMaster> or rather, last comparison is for outdated versions
18:31:33 <AnMaster> what I'm interested in is current yaws version and current lighttpd
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18:37:31 <fizzie> Multiple arbitrarily long lists of arbitrarily long strings are a bit annoying to keep in Funge-Space. Maybe I should have a limited number of slots for ignores.
18:38:22 <fizzie> Well, okay, there I can get by with limited string length.
18:38:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think 005 on connect contains max lengths
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18:38:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, it varies between different servers
18:39:07 <fizzie> I'm still not going to start parsing those numerics.
18:39:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway you can easily store them
18:40:05 <fizzie> Yes, if there is a fixed amount of rows there's no problem.
18:40:23 <AnMaster> what about adding a buffer of 500 lines?
18:40:30 <AnMaster> should be more than enough, 500 ignores
18:40:47 <AnMaster> otherwise.. implement a malloc with SUBR ;P
18:41:33 <fizzie> Maybe I should use REXP and have regular-expression ignores; now that'd be useless. (The "only one regular expression per X" thing is a bit annoying; is it even per IP or per interpreter or what?)
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18:42:44 <AnMaster> ais523, I got no idea if this will affect you but previously funge loading in cfunge happened with char*, and unless there is a good reason I'm changing that to unsigned char*
18:42:55 <AnMaster> this would affect the loading code that intercal uses too
18:42:57 <ais523> no, it won't make a difference
18:43:02 <ais523> as I load from a string literal
18:43:28 <ais523> but the great thing about C is you can cast anything to/from unsigned char*...
18:43:33 <AnMaster> ais523, since I mmap() then load it as a string literal ;P
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18:49:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, question: Funge-98 specs doesn't say if i, o or initial code loading should be signed or unsigned right?
18:49:44 <AnMaster> funge space itself is signed yes
18:50:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, where does it say so?
18:50:04 <ais523> hmm... native char would be more obvious
18:50:09 <ais523> char is signed in some ABIs, unsigned in others
18:50:20 <Deewiant> where it talks about "the meaning of char #217 is always char #217 to funge" or whatever
18:50:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mycology doesn't test that I think
18:50:53 <Deewiant> yes, but it depends on it in some fingerprint
18:51:00 <Deewiant> it's on my list of things to add
18:52:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, FILE certainly doesn't say either signed or unsigned
18:52:21 <Deewiant> of course it doesn't, it's one of Mike's :-P
18:52:33 <Deewiant> why on earth would it say something like that :-P
18:53:25 <Ilari> I read the spec as "ASCII characters 0-127 are mapped to funge numbers 0-127, characters with high bit set are implementation-defined.".
18:53:55 <AnMaster> Ilari, what specific bit do you refer to?
18:54:14 <Ilari> Characters 128-255 (that is, those with bit 7 set).
18:54:37 <AnMaster> ais523, current bzr version is now using unsigned, even if the function you use to load
18:54:45 <AnMaster> may need a cast to prevent a warning
18:55:45 <AnMaster> Ilari, that wording can't be found in Funge-98?
18:57:38 <AnMaster> oh I think FILE is signed in cfunge heh, well would be non-trivial to fix and require lots of changes elsewhere
18:57:55 <AnMaster> or rather FILE uses the system's native signed-ness
18:58:12 <Ilari> That is, 0-127 must be encoded as characters 0-127, but any other value can be encoded as anything (that involves at least one extended character, so it is uniquely decodeable).
18:58:55 <Ilari> Or, actually, anything can be encoded as anything, but 0-127 have specified decodings (and meanings).
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18:59:18 <AnMaster> Ilari, yes but where in the Funge-98 spec does it say so? I can't find anything backing your claim in it
19:00:16 <AnMaster> SOCK W and R use unsigned char.
19:00:57 <Ilari> Hmm... Actually reading it again it seems to say that file read as sequence of codepoints (encoded in unspecified manner) and those codepoint numbers are used as numbers in funge-space.
19:01:37 <AnMaster> for efunge I seem to read it as unsigned big endian (though the latter doesn't matter since it reads one byte at a time)
19:02:07 <AnMaster> Ilari, as long as I don't need to parse utf8 I'm happy
19:02:42 <AnMaster> and for any RC/Funge fingerprint I will just argue that due to being so poorly defined I can do whatever I want anyway ;P
19:03:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I think having cfunge be internally inconsistent about what it uses where is a bad idea
19:03:34 <Ilari> In fact I interpret the spec that doing UTF-8 decoding on source file and using codepoint values as number sequence fed to parser would be allowed...
19:04:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no it is just a case of push_gnirts using char*
19:04:36 <AnMaster> push_gnirts is the name used in efunge...
19:04:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so I would need a push_unsigned_string
19:05:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, you just need to change it to unsigned char*
19:05:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no I will need to add various casts too
19:06:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, -Wall -Wextra -Wa-lot-more -Wactually-think-warnings-are-useful
19:06:12 <Deewiant> why would you ever need to cast anything
19:06:12 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/funge-space/funge-space.c: In function 'fungespace_load':
19:06:12 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/funge-space/funge-space.c:376: warning: pointer targets in passing argument 1 of 'load_string' differ in signedness
19:06:24 <Deewiant> you should never have any char except unsigned char
19:06:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes I do, from system
19:06:48 <AnMaster> which may or may not be signed
19:08:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm... does STRN expect stuff to be cast to char* before being written/read from funge space
19:08:11 <AnMaster> considering you may loose precision that way
19:08:18 <AnMaster> considering the name of the fingerprint I'd say yes
19:08:53 <Ilari> Anyway, the current way I read the spec is that sequence of bytes is translated to sequence of numbers in some undefined manner and only meaning of that number sequence is defined.
19:09:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, stack_(push|pop)_string are used everywhere anything says 0"gnirts" in any fingerprint or core instruction
19:09:33 <AnMaster> meaning they all end up as char there
19:10:13 <AnMaster> ah. Deewiant have you considered non-ASCII?
19:10:27 <AnMaster> Hm I think they will need to remap stuff
19:10:29 <Deewiant> Ilari: I read it as being defined by the platform and not the interpreter
19:10:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what do you mean have I considered them
19:11:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I meant EBIC or whatever that one was
19:11:10 <AnMaster> which aren't even ASCII compatible in any way
19:11:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well a-f is a continuous range there iirc but not a-z
19:23:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I end up adding casts in nearly every case due to that I happen to use libc :P
19:25:42 <Deewiant> doesn't either cast implicitly to the other
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19:29:31 <Deewiant> "loss of precision" or what nonsense?
19:29:39 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/funge-space/funge-space.c: In function 'fungespace_load':
19:29:40 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/funge-space/funge-space.c:376: warning: pointer targets in passing argument 1 of 'load_string' differ in signedness
19:30:59 <ais523> pointer targets differ in signedness can actually play hell in the comparisons of loops, I sort-of understand why it warns people about those
19:31:02 <Deewiant> just use -Wno-pointer-sign or cast
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19:31:12 <AnMaster> ais523, yes it does in many cases
19:31:20 <AnMaster> for example writing out to funge space
19:31:34 <AnMaster> there would have been some nasty bugs in STRN without those warnings
19:31:44 <AnMaster> so Deewiant is plain wrong in thinking they are harmless
19:31:50 <Deewiant> I did not say they are harmless
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19:46:00 <AnMaster> as in ~& and various fingerprints
19:53:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, impossible for those since they return signed
19:54:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also funge-space itself is signed
19:54:36 <Deewiant> and it's not impossible, just cast
19:54:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tell me where in the spec it says so
19:55:23 <Deewiant> I think whoever thought up signed chars was an idiot, or then I'm grossly misinformed about something
19:55:27 <AnMaster> ah so mycology won't test it apart from loading?
19:55:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um, same for signed integers?
19:55:53 <Deewiant> how could I test stdin signedness anyway
19:56:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: chars are not integers, and neither are bytes.
19:56:13 <fizzie> Re ~, the corresponding C standard library function -- getchar()/fgetc() -- returns unsigned characters.
19:56:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm true, maybe echo some char
19:56:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, fgets() fputs() return/take char*
19:57:59 <fizzie> But ~ does not do bulk IO; and fgets/fputs are not very "bulk IO" either, being line-based; and for the fwrite()/fread() calls you can specify the interpretation yourself, since they take a void *.
20:00:14 <AnMaster> hah I just reduced time for mycology a lot
20:00:21 <AnMaster> by not using fflush() as often
20:00:26 <fizzie> Anyway, if you want to "act like the C library does", ~ ought to return a unsigned char, since that's what the C library function which does the same thing returns. Doesn't much matter how you implement it, of course.
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20:00:48 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: I haven't really been following the whole conversation.)
20:01:13 <AnMaster> ais523, before I did fflush() on input ~& and newline in output
20:01:26 <AnMaster> now it is changed to only do it when it actually reads input
20:01:34 <AnMaster> just before the call to cf_getline
20:01:56 <AnMaster> so if input can be served from buffer it won't call fflush() either
20:02:04 <AnMaster> and it won't call it on every newline
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20:03:26 <AnMaster> ais523, and that shaves off almost 0.020 seconds
20:03:51 <fizzie> You mean you fflush() stdout before reading input, to make prompts and such visible?
20:04:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, and I used to do it more often than needed
20:04:22 <fizzie> "fflush() on input" just sounded a bit strange.
20:04:45 <AnMaster> I used to follow the same algorithm as ccbi claim(ed?) it uses in --help
20:06:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, I have a non-public script here to build a special build for speed runs, for mycology that script actually doesn't make a lot of difference to -O3 -fweb
20:06:32 <AnMaster> but for life.bf it does for some reason
20:06:41 <AnMaster> anyway life.bf is even faster now
20:07:13 <ais523> AnMaster: -fweb's implied by funroll loops, in gcc
20:07:39 <AnMaster> ais523, well not by -O3 according to docs for gcc 4.1.2 at least
20:07:57 <ais523> are you not funrolling loops for a reason, btw?
20:08:00 <AnMaster> ais523, and my special build system use profile feedback
20:08:23 <ais523> yes, and thanks for all the help it gave me in the ICFP, I survived until about 3 rounds from the end
20:08:30 <AnMaster> ais523, well except they can slow down sometimes due to cache locality iirc
20:08:40 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure I have seen examples of that
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20:11:58 <AnMaster> ais523, http://omploader.org/vdjY2 <-- it is about 3 times as fast when I'm not using xvidcap btw....
20:12:18 <AnMaster> showing how fast cfunge is at life of game
20:12:38 <ais523> hmm... why not just have used ttyrec?
20:12:40 <AnMaster> of course I'm unable to test ccbi under same conditions due to it being in D
20:13:04 <ais523> it's mostly used to record games of text-based games like NetHack
20:13:43 <AnMaster> ais523, what about speed? My screen only shows a blur for those bits on screen when xvidcap isn't running
20:13:54 <AnMaster> so I guess faster than this monitor's response time
20:14:05 <ais523> AnMaster: there are players that can slow it down
20:14:17 <AnMaster> ais523, well I want to show how fast it actually is
20:14:24 <ais523> look up ipbt, although it seems not to be packaged it compiles from source well
20:15:05 <AnMaster> ais523, compared to ccbi and rc/funge
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20:15:22 <AnMaster> actually I should probably publish the profiled building script
20:15:50 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/diPMmW23.html
20:16:06 <AnMaster> be aware of that that requires mycology to exist in a specific place
20:16:26 <AnMaster> and you need to change CHOSTFLAGS
20:17:07 <AnMaster> it is really meant for local usage
20:17:16 <fizzie> I'm a bit curious about how fast thutubot's +ul is, compared to fungot's ^ul. (Although the latter probably has some bugs left.)
20:17:16 <fungot> fizzie: 14:58, april 24, 2007.. 24.166.157.216 ( talk block)
20:17:19 <AnMaster> but I assume some people may find it interesting
20:17:35 <ais523> fizzie: Thutu is inherently slow, although the algorithm it uses is a pretty fast one for Thutu
20:17:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, well that may depend on if you compile it using some way like the one I linked
20:17:44 <ais523> also, Thutu programs run slower the more they store in memory
20:17:48 <Deewiant> ais523: befunge isn't exactly inherently fast either ;-)
20:17:53 <ais523> so it'll depend on all sorts of things
20:17:58 <ais523> Deewiant: it is by esolang standards
20:18:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, be aware of that if that cause bugs it is probably not high priority to fiux
20:18:05 <ais523> at least it isn't a factor of n slower
20:18:31 <ais523> fungot: busy signing fizzie's messages for em?
20:18:56 <AnMaster> fungot, what do you mean with ' '?
20:18:57 <fungot> AnMaster: finally, in the process of being verified right now that are very real in my personal experience. when i first stumbled across 141's edits, i can't see why you would include this personal rant. what you two have been doing business with each other.
20:19:11 <ais523> AnMaster: '' is mediawiki markup for italic, ''' for bold
20:19:15 <ais523> they confuse fungot quite a lot
20:19:15 <fungot> ais523: i've noticed this before whilst listening to the answer by the minister for health and fnord.
20:19:34 <fizzie> fungot: In what country they have a minister for health and fnord?
20:19:35 <fungot> fizzie: yes, that is, levinson went to kish, disappeared, had on your behalf countless official pleas and responses from the u.s. and canadian newspapers, using fnord connected to the hydrogen station series. i also had to change it to the article.
20:19:58 <ais523> I really like this fungot database, btw
20:19:58 <fungot> ais523: ( 4) http://news.com.com/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord/ bios/ overview/ atpd683.html french open ( roland fnord, fnord
20:20:11 <ais523> it's very Wikipedia-like
20:20:26 <AnMaster> ais523, except the fnords I guess?
20:20:36 <fizzie> And all that comes from just 1/256th of the talk pages.
20:22:44 <fizzie> In case someone's interested, http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot_articles.txt has the list of articles used. (The names have had "Talk:" removed, and the titles have been filenamized; spaces to _, slashes to @, and all kinds of more special characters escaped with +nn or +unnnn.)
20:22:44 <fungot> fizzie: if there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this article.
20:23:15 <ais523> yes, fizzie, fair use rationales are verry important
20:23:37 <fizzie> Yes, but for a plain-text list of filenames from my own disk?
20:26:13 <fizzie> fungot: So, tell me about... the ZX Spectrum character set. You should know something about it, it's there in the list.
20:26:13 <fungot> fizzie: fnord) refers to ashoka maurya as a maha-asura i.e. a few wrote, fnord, which
20:26:53 <fizzie> Maybe it's not really very useful as a fact-bot.
20:27:32 <ais523> I never mistook fungot for a fact-bot...
20:27:33 <fungot> ais523: i removed the mention of any other fnord was one of the templates at wikipedia:fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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20:27:53 <fizzie> It is _very_ concerned about the fair use of images.
20:27:53 <ais523> although it seems to care a lot about fair-use policy
20:28:12 <ais523> OTOH, optbot is a factbot sometimes, just you don't normally get the fact you want
20:29:03 <AnMaster> yeah if you actually want a fact bot you would need to consider input
20:29:16 <optbot> ais523: i'm taking an apathetic stance
20:29:16 <optbot> fungot: if you were, you could always try $ cat | sed 'regular exp here' :>
20:29:16 <fungot> optbot: bought by sun microsystems. citation sun press room fnord/ fnord fnord the encyclopaedia britannica: a dictionary of arts, sciences, commerce and law. faculties of medicine ( 1936), co-author of the ugly american. ' '
20:29:17 <fungot> optbot: i think the song " clementine" or anything about huckleberry hound. why he might decide to do this)? thanks! fnord fnord --user:protiousgeorge ( user talk:protioustalk) 01:44, 8 september 2008 ( utc
20:29:18 <fungot> optbot: i changed the 2007 population data in the infobox, but i note a couple things still stick out. first, the idea that " things lose value because they cease to exist". if we can make a wide speculation like that without knowing. there is also an improvement over an fnord body of text that is published elsewhere under different terms, that does not give the base of the log. small—preceding wikipedia:signaturesunsigned co
20:29:19 <optbot> fungot: this is my point. We all know that a halting solver is impossible to do exactly. It'll either keep going and going, only halted by a timeout (which would be inaccurate, perhaps), or it'll halt and return true. (but we all know that, so I just wasted effort typing all this out.)
20:29:19 <fungot> o:optbot: meaning that the western asian people known as " dom", as the
20:29:21 <fungot> optbot: i also think the article also has a strong reputation as a remedy against me. if you can't convince each other, right? fnord!
20:29:24 <fungot> optbot: i've put in this picture of the coronation. i assume that it is common to use the cbs name. in the same manner as other south slavs are, although the apa does not recognize this syndrome and convened a panel that rejected the existence of
20:29:24 <optbot> fungot: how're you doing with the Basil puzzle?
20:29:28 <fungot> optbot: i am currently investigating fnord and permanent hair removal as a permanent solution to this problem. the problem is that faith and belief are fnord acts and can not ever be like today. there is already someone by that name, which should be relevant for this page?
20:29:28 <optbot> fungot: that would make continuations rather worthless
20:29:32 <fungot> optbot: please go to :image:logo ulivo fnord image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with wp:fufair use.
20:29:35 -!- fungot has left (?).
20:29:41 <ais523> that's not meant to happen...
20:29:43 <fizzie> Who has brokeded the loop-checker?
20:29:49 <fizzie> Well, me, most likely, but still.
20:30:14 <AnMaster> no clue how the heck to do that
20:30:23 <ais523> using Befunge Units, of course
20:30:39 <ais523> well, I just made them up, and there aren't any details yet
20:30:50 <ais523> but probably something like mini-funge
20:33:22 * ais523 ponders the concept of compiling BackFlip into Funge
20:33:23 <fizzie> I did mess around the loop-checker when updating fungot not to use NULL any more, but I can't see how I would've broken it.
20:33:23 <AnMaster> ais523, continuous(sp?) integration for Funge?
20:33:36 <ais523> well, no, it was just a flippant pun, really
20:33:42 <ais523> but you spelt continuous correctly
20:34:13 <AnMaster> Funge IDE with project files and so on
20:34:33 * AnMaster considers Visual Studio Funge#
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20:41:16 <fizzie> That's curious, the loop-checker seems to work when single-stepping through it.
20:42:01 <fizzie> Maybe a large negative number has somehow ended up there, although I don't see how, since it should reset to zero whenever someone talks to fungot.
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20:42:13 <fizzie> fungot: First I say something to you.
20:42:13 <fungot> fizzie: respectfully, fnord ( ancestral form of modern iranian fnord fnord, fnord
20:42:19 <fungot> optbot ptbot tbot bot ot t
20:42:19 <optbot> fizzie: allowed_execs["__import__"] = None
20:42:20 <fungot> optbot: they needed cars, fnord and fnord) and all stocky muscle could easily tip the scale at close to 1600 pounds. ( note: women rowers have close to the disparity of sub-saharn africa would have the slight advantage of leaving the existing links to " hull speed".
20:42:20 <fungot> optbot: this page is going to be long, and needs to be discussed, it should be deleted, not merged. but new england flood of may 2006 has the fnord nest with the fnord
20:42:21 <optbot> fungot: !befunge http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/befunge93/eg/hello2.bf
20:42:21 <fungot> optbot: includes almost every naval aircraft ever used. the major ideas need a page number from those books cited. ideally one should use the binary prefixes. if you have
20:42:22 <fungot> optbot: 3. unlike some fighters whose fnord decreases after their prime, kung fu will relate to chinese martial arts page and the pic fnord changing. i dont think that this article be renamed but there was no official release date. fnord listed it as simply the " horn" and " impute". is this a cognate of the spanish fnord fnord?
20:42:23 <optbot> fungot: I forget that methods are non-first-class in java
20:42:31 <fizzie> Okay, there, it stopped.
20:42:53 <fizzie> The same thing should really be happening even if the underload interp is used to initiate the loop.
20:43:11 <fizzie> fungot: I'm just resetting the limit again.
20:43:11 <fungot> fizzie: i finally tracked down some related publications by searching directly for professor fnord fnord.
20:43:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, you could have attached gdb and dumped the location using call if you had a debug (-O0) build
20:43:24 <optbot> fizzie: pymacs or something
20:43:24 <fungot> optbot: an annular hurricane. i think we can use the compressed air at 70 psi to operate the points for the fnord web
20:43:24 <optbot> fungot: What time is i
20:43:25 <fungot> optbot: it should be named in english, using both terms. --user:jondeljondel 09:49, 24 june 2008 ( utc
20:43:25 <optbot> fungot: and then you'll never be able to use the lambda special form!!
20:43:25 <fungot> optbot: the region was originally inhabited by the fnord show syndicated on the n all over the place.
20:43:26 <fungot> optbot: my apologies for the tone of the series' fnord.
20:43:26 <optbot> fungot: that's the 'official' name
20:43:32 <fizzie> Okay, it stopped again.
20:43:50 <fizzie> Maybe I had a botched copy running on the box where the IRCed fungot sits.
20:43:50 <fungot> fizzie: this article could be expanded. user:badagnanibadagnani 21:01, 27 september 2006 ( utc
20:44:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, in a debug build: call fungespace_dump()
20:44:16 <AnMaster> but that won't exist in a release build
20:44:25 <AnMaster> it just dumps it raw to stdout btw
20:44:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait you store it negative?
20:45:04 <AnMaster> fungespace_dump dumps from 0,0 to edge
20:45:26 <fizzie> Yes, the counter is at x=0, y=-15; and the last nick who spoke to it is in x=1..., y=-15.
20:47:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is kind of "tricky" to reach in cfunge
20:47:31 <AnMaster> I would just add a print where I needed it in the code
20:47:34 <AnMaster> fungespace_get(vector_create_ref(x, y)))
20:47:41 <AnMaster> but vector_create_ref is a macro
20:48:10 <AnMaster> fungespace_get(& (fungeVector){x, y}) or such iirc
20:48:19 <AnMaster> that is a pointer to a struct on stack
20:48:33 <AnMaster> which is tricky to call from gdb to put it mildly
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20:53:23 <fungot> fizzie: he claims it on his web site? fnord 16:09, 28 december 2007 ( utc))) which quotes these formulae and confirms that this is supposed to be assuming good faith here? please suggest any changes that you think would be a better type of article for a good article but it is always called " le fnord di figaro," w.a. mozart; the title role in " the other side has not been updated in years, not since their first creation of the
20:53:33 <fizzie> ^code 0ad00f-gU0": ciretose# GSMVIRP"AAN51p08P0851g21gW$
20:53:44 <fizzie> Hmm, that should've worked.
20:54:19 <fizzie> But it just hung up this time. Meh, worked locally, too.
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20:55:08 <fizzie> I probably should be using the same interpreter for local testing and actual running, too.
20:55:08 <oklopol> lol @ ciretose, that sounds coool
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20:55:59 <oklopol> about the putting the actual befunge unlambda on the bot, isn't there a fingerprint for some kinda procedures?
20:56:39 <fizzie> There's SUBR which has call/return instructions.
20:57:36 <oklopol> i'm off to hesburger to read my book ->
20:57:54 <fizzie> Heh, yes: that ^code call indeed works with RC/Funge, but doesn't with cfunge.
20:58:18 <fizzie> It's *again* the SUBR 'A' thing. :p
20:58:33 <oklopol> are you saying it's become a *blind*funge?
20:59:02 <fizzie> The current SUBR fingerprint has an 'A' instruction which masks the STRN 'A' I was trying to use there.
20:59:15 <fizzie> I think it's also in a new RC/Funge-98 like that, but my build is a bit old.
20:59:40 <oklopol> or maybe a desertfunge, but that's probably even harder to get
21:00:00 <ais523> looks like you need to mess aobut with FING...
21:00:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, last rc/funge would have it too
21:01:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, and older rc/funge may have slightly different semantics for FING on empty stacks
21:02:30 <fizzie> Well, I no longer do anything involving empty stacks except using Z to push things on them, which is pretty standard stuff.
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21:02:55 <fizzie> Workarounded it a bit.
21:03:00 <fizzie> ^code 0ad00f-gU0": ciretose# GSMVIRP"AAN51p08P0851g21gW$
21:03:17 <fizzie> That "simple and easy-to-remember command" can be used to check the counter.
21:03:24 <fizzie> fungot: I say something.
21:03:26 <fungot> fizzie: ( undent) right, that's why put it in more clear english: a thought i experience proves its own existence, but it doesn't explain the play. the explaination given here does not explain, contrary to your assertion, why the fnord sexism? people need to stop changing the date. i bought it on that day, and fire was on it by night, in long grass, between fnord, fnord
21:03:28 <fizzie> fungot: I say something else.
21:03:29 <fungot> fizzie: apart from the whole confusion he writes we have two sets of evidence: " the british bulldog" fnord boy smith, " fnord и fnord " fnord fnord fnord
21:03:30 <fizzie> ^code 0ad00f-gU0": ciretose# GSMVIRP"AAN51p08P0851g21gW$
21:04:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about adding a command to actually do that?
21:04:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, shouldn't it be 2 there?
21:04:53 <fizzie> It starts with 0 when it sets the "who spoke last" thing.
21:05:22 <fizzie> Then it does "++counter > 3" to check whether it should stop.
21:05:45 <fizzie> ^code 0ad10f-G0": ciretose# GSMVIRP"AAN51p08P0851g21gW$
21:05:48 <fizzie> That's who spoke last.
21:06:21 <fizzie> Yes, I guess I could add some sort of funge-space fetch commands to accompany ^code. Not sure if I'll bother, though.
21:08:47 <fizzie> Actually I think there's a slight wrap-around problem: if you speak to the bot something like 2^31 times (without anyone else speaking in-between) it'll again start answering to you, and actually continue answering until the counter again reaches positive numbers.
21:09:01 <fizzie> (Don't try this on-channel, please.)
21:11:59 <fungot> lament: everything in the article to decide. fnord 22:11, 17 january 2008 ( utc) copyedit finished. good luck. cheers, fnord 19:04, 9 december 2006 ( utc)
21:12:01 <fungot> lament: question: are arepas known outside of broadcasting fnord. the center is located about miles 10 miles west of kusinagar. the place abounded in peepul trees and there were also presuppositions unique to discourse:
21:12:04 <fungot> lament: guys, please don't hesitate to add information, but it seems like that's been resolved ( at least in the part of the states to decide who to regulate and how much of this has been going around vandalizing pages by putting stuff about hen fap in the third paragraph, which i not yet can see as " at least ten thousand years ago, which is the primary source document of islamic international law, there is no
21:12:06 <fungot> lament: i decided to add the link yesterday, but wasn't aware of any comparative studies that have proven the fnord of coats and pants etc do not require such grounds. furthermore, the article ' of course christ didn't actually look as christian art suggested.' but we don't ' ' '
21:12:16 <ehird> hey lament, can you kick lament?
21:12:37 <fizzie> No, it's in the ignore mode now.
21:12:53 <lament> damn, i was hoping to wrap around
21:12:56 <fizzie> But when you say that thing 2^31-4 more times, it'll again answer.
21:13:12 <fizzie> Unless someone goes and speaks to the bot before you can manage to do it.
21:13:50 <ehird> lament: welp, guess you'd better start.
21:14:23 <ehird> wonder if you could do it with mechanical turk
21:14:56 <lament> i can say it about twice per second
21:15:05 <lament> so it'll only take 2^30 seconds
21:16:41 <ehird> today, children, we see AnMaster not finding something funny funny.
21:17:03 <ehird> 'that would take ages' = ruins the joke by explaining it.
21:17:28 <AnMaster> http://www.mezzacotta.net/singles/jokes_explained_explained.php
21:17:47 <ehird> yes, explaining jokes is funny, but only if you do it in a funny way
21:17:51 <fizzie> Oh, it's only 34 years? Maybe I need to use a 64-bit build to avoid that problem, then.
21:17:59 <ehird> (being extremely literal, serious and in-depth)
21:18:27 <AnMaster> ehird, also that link I gave do the same on a second level :)
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22:18:25 <AnMaster> night, won't be reachable during most of tomorrow
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00:08:29 <oerjan> <oklopol> about the putting the actual befunge unlambda on the bot, isn't there a fingerprint for some kinda procedures?
00:08:58 <oerjan> gah, here i was about to get excited, until i remembered everyone is confusing unlambda and underload...
00:14:57 <oklopol> i really deserve a kickban for that.
00:15:17 <oklopol> really what the fuck is so hard about it
00:15:40 <oklopol> underload is this stack-based language
00:15:47 <oklopol> hi, have you ever considered trying underload
00:15:57 <oklopol> underload is so much cooler than drugs
00:16:12 <oklopol> in soviet russia, the load is under you
00:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | the rest are the same.
00:16:34 <oerjan> +ul ((underload is)S:^):^
00:16:35 <thutubot> underload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload isunderload is ...too much output!
00:17:01 <oerjan> +ul ((underload is )S:^):^ there was a typo
00:17:02 <thutubot> underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is underload is ...too much output!
00:17:35 <oklopol> btw. almost wrote one of my underloads as unlambda when writing those sentences
00:18:03 <oerjan> there is really only one way to atone for this, you know.
00:18:18 <oerjan> you must write a fully-functional unlambda interpreter in befunge.
00:19:04 <oklopol> ski i can do no prob; unlambda may require some though
00:19:28 <pikhq> Liberty has died further.
00:19:50 <pikhq> US *border patrol* can now perform searches and seizures on anyone within 100 miles of the US border.
00:20:14 <pikhq> That covers the vast majority of the US population...
00:21:07 <oklopol> i wonder when pirate bay starts considering founding "the planet of freedom" on mars or something
00:22:19 <pikhq> Covers fully 2/3 of the US population, actually.
00:24:01 * oerjan vaguely recall something about the USA having a constitution that people are fond of throwing against such things
00:26:22 <GregorR> Nah, our current president has convinced enough of us to give it up that that doesn't happen much anymore.
00:28:11 <pikhq> Our current President is on record as saying that the Constitution is a 'god-damned piece of paper'.
00:28:35 * oerjan wonders if he meant the first word literally
00:28:41 <GregorR> Sounds like something a gold-standard idiot would say (about different paper :P )
00:30:15 * oerjan suddenly realized "gold-standard" was _not_ a metaphor
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06:10:01 <psygnisfive> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNQLmHKlmiE
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11:06:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think mycouser got a bug with odd input for char input
11:06:23 <AnMaster> echo -e '2\0241\n2\n11\nto be or not to be\n' | ./cfunge ../mycology/mycouser.b98
11:06:34 <AnMaster> Please input a character: UNDEF: got 161 '¡39 0 '' which is hopefully correct.
11:08:55 <AnMaster> actually hm I don't have last mycology
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14:16:53 <ehird> Anyone know if there's a way to have a permanent folder in /tmp? I'd like /tmp/downloads to always be there but clean itself when /tmp does.
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15:43:19 <AnMaster> "Can't test o in linear text mode: i ignores spaces, no way to know from within standard Funge-98 whether they are output to file."
15:43:48 <ais523> then you have to handle all the possible newline conventions
15:44:01 <AnMaster> if there are spaces, it won't overwrite, if there aren't it will overwrite
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15:47:53 <oklopol> 0235753287575320235753287535320
15:48:12 <ais523> hmm... what are you doing?
15:48:24 <ais523> also, lol at the topic
15:48:37 <ais523> just an IRC-lol that makes no noise in real life
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15:51:03 <oklopol> i'm a bit tired, played world of goo all night
15:51:20 <oklopol> (i did finish the game, so it was time well used)
15:51:47 <oklopol> and no that's not a synonym for something perverted, it's a game
15:52:14 <oklopol> basically you build things out of these balls of goo
15:52:24 <oklopol> and now i feel like what i type is falling.
15:52:45 <oklopol> to the right, because there's more weights there
15:53:32 <oklopol> i really have a problem with my s's.
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17:04:52 <AnMaster> what the heck is a typed memory object.
17:06:11 <AnMaster> posix_typed_mem_open manages to totally fail at explain what they are and what they are meant for
17:10:59 * oerjan sees a reference to an IEEE standard
17:12:19 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/basedefs/xbd_chap03.html#tag_03_418
17:13:19 <oerjan> it's not immensely clear though
17:16:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah yes "fail", but I read what I had written as "posix_typed_mem_open manpage totally" instead of what I really wrote "posix_typed_mem_open manages to totally"
17:16:40 <AnMaster> then fails would have been correct
17:17:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, however I still got no clue what the typed memory * stuff is
17:17:51 <oerjan> it's part of the Advanced Realtime group of options, whatever that is
17:19:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes I know what those are, there is some useful stuff in that group, for example very exact clocks and such
17:19:27 <AnMaster> ah wait that one is just Realtime, not Advanced
17:21:40 <oerjan> http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/xsh_chap02_08.html#tag_02_08_03_04
17:23:18 <oerjan> http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/xrat/xsh_chap02.html#tag_03_02_08_15
17:23:52 <oerjan> the last one actually gives some clue i think
17:25:09 <oerjan> it seems to refer to _physical_ memory types
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17:53:22 * AnMaster ponders multithreaded brainfuck
17:54:22 <AnMaster> no idea how to provide synchronisation in a way that fits with the language
17:54:43 <AnMaster> ehird, yes the name is good, but it would be shared memory
17:54:52 <ehird> I'm saying it already exists.
17:54:54 <ehird> And it's called Brainfork.
17:54:55 <ais523> AnMaster: ehird's trying to point out that it already exists
17:54:58 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfork
18:00:31 <oerjan> when the _web archive_ is borken too, it's time to take a break
18:09:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, it certainly times out here
18:10:03 <AnMaster> maybe google's cached version of the web archive version? :D
18:10:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, however I wonder how to do synchronisation in brainfork...
18:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but below it?.
18:22:36 <ehird> [[Intelligence agencies, using intelligent software, can screen the contents of e-mail with relative ease]].
18:22:43 <ehird> Dumb agencies need not apply as they only have dumb software.
18:26:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: i assume the tape is shared. moving the pointer to the right in one thread wouldn't make sense otherwise. although the phrasing is a bit weird.
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18:27:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I would implement it as: shared thread, + and - atomic, each thread got it's own pointer
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19:16:13 <oerjan> +ul (o)(~:S(ok)*~:^):^
19:16:14 <thutubot> oookookokookokokookokokokookokokokokookokokokokokookokokokokokokookokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokokokokokok ...too much output!
19:16:41 <oerjan> +ul ( o)(~:S(ko)*~:^):^
19:16:42 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
19:17:13 <oklopol> better to be scared to half to death than to death half scared be to
19:17:49 * oerjan assumes that makes sense in finnish, or something
19:18:09 <oklopol> nah that was an american dad quote, sometimes i like to copypaste what i hear on channels.
19:32:34 <AnMaster> about that POSIX for DOS thing (DJGPP or whatever it was) someone said it didn't support fork(), well I think POSIX kind of forbids that. "{CHILD_MAX} precludes the possibility of a "toy implementation", where there would only be one process." (quote from rationale for adding pid_t)
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19:46:25 <ehird> AnMaster: he is not there.
19:46:41 <ehird> fork() just always fails on djgpp
19:46:42 <AnMaster> ehird, right, I had checked /whois, it didn't say away
19:46:48 <ehird> CHILD_MAX is 1, presumably.
19:46:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Tough shit.
19:47:00 <AnMaster> Maximum number of simultaneous processes per real user ID.
19:47:00 <AnMaster> Minimum Acceptable Value: {_POSIX_CHILD_MAX}
19:47:08 <AnMaster> Maximum number of simultaneous processes per real user ID.
19:47:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Embedded systems will break that rule, anyway.
19:47:29 <AnMaster> ehird, well I'm just quoting standards
19:47:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Standards are irrelevant.
19:48:07 <ehird> Anything involving the real world.
19:48:51 <AnMaster> there is a good reason for standards, and if there were no standards no program would be portable, ever
19:49:06 <ehird> Weird. See, people write portable things without standards all the time.
19:49:14 <ehird> It's called testing on multiple platforms and you have to do it anyway.
19:49:59 <AnMaster> ehird, so if C wasn't portable, and only existed for one platform, you would need to write polygots to get it working on multiple platforms
19:50:10 <ehird> C once didn't have a standard.
19:50:17 <ehird> People still wrote perfectly fine programs for it.
19:50:27 <AnMaster> agreed, but it got one after a while. Which helped a lot
19:51:41 <oklopol> if you print a standard out on chocolate bars, you can eat it
19:52:36 <ehird> oklopol: True, true
19:52:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, highly relevant, except you need a standard chocolate bar format for printing
19:52:56 <oklopol> AnMaster: well sure if you want to do some serious metaeating
19:52:57 <AnMaster> I mean should be... Y4 (for Yum)
19:53:02 <ehird> AnMaster: The point is that nobody actually gives half of a damn if DJGPP disobeys the standard by - gasp - giving the correct value.
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19:58:03 <ehird> What is the command printing out the unix timestamp?
19:58:07 <ehird> I cannot think of it for the life of me
19:59:16 <ehird> You'd think it'd be easier. huh.
19:59:33 <AnMaster> ehird, note that %s is a commonly supported non-standard extension iirc
19:59:41 <AnMaster> POSIX date may not have such a command ;P
19:59:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Aren't standards wonderful, mmhm?
20:00:25 <ehird> 122496122070678410976191059206867952173936457386
20:00:28 <ehird> What a nice nonce!
20:00:28 <AnMaster> in fact on a DeathPOSIX 9000 you would need to write a C program using time() to do it
20:00:49 <AnMaster> ehird, that doesn't look like a current date...
20:00:50 <ehird> Now to rewrite that in php. Fleargh.
20:00:58 <ehird> AnMaster: It's timestamp + large amount of random data.
20:01:02 <ehird> Well, 16 bytesworth.
20:01:09 <ehird> And to justify the php thing: i have no choice, relaly
20:01:10 <AnMaster> what do you plan to use it for?
20:01:19 <ehird> I'm modifying the phpMyID openid server to use pgp for authentication
20:01:23 <ehird> and using the firegpg extension to do it
20:01:28 <ehird> so it'll automatically sign the nonce that comes back
20:01:30 <ehird> thus proving I'm me.
20:02:09 <ehird> AnMaster: it's just like ssh authentication
20:02:25 <ehird> server gives a nonce, browser auto-signs the nonce, server checks signing is correct, voila
20:02:37 <ehird> Ofc, it's still protected by a passphrase.
20:02:45 <AnMaster> ehird, well I think php got functions for both time stamp and random, but I got no clue how good that prng is
20:02:54 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm just going to read from /dev/random.
20:11:32 * Sgeo gasps at http://pixelcomic.net/287.php
20:11:47 <AnMaster> "Those employing applications written in high-level languages, such as C, Ada, or FORTRAN." (http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/xrat/port.html)
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21:28:28 <SimonRC> Sgeo: what's to gasp at? it looks all blurry to me
21:29:16 <Sgeo> The fact that there was an update
21:32:18 <SimonRC> I have known some of my comics go longer than that between updates
21:33:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you use cfunge release or last bzr?
21:33:52 <AnMaster> Only I'm planning a new release within a few days and I would need someone to test it on OS X
21:33:57 <SimonRC> Argon Zark once went for over a year in the middle of a fast-paced action scene
21:34:24 <AnMaster> SimonRC, what comic are you talking about?
21:36:05 <SimonRC> since it started in 1997 it has managed a grand total of 77 updates
21:36:42 <AnMaster> SimonRC, I usually read well updated ones
21:36:56 * AnMaster tries to remember for how long userfriendly have gone without an update
21:37:10 <AnMaster> I think once or twice the *daily* comic have been late due to server issues
21:37:31 <AnMaster> irregular webcomic seems very very regular too
21:37:45 <AnMaster> xkcd is regular, so is darth and droids
21:37:55 <AnMaster> and those are all the webcomics I read
21:38:03 <fizzie> "Last" bzr, where "last" in this case means revno: 441, timestamp: Sun 2008-10-19 18:29:41 +0200.
21:38:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, care to try out the very last?
21:38:24 <AnMaster> there have been some changes that could cause issues
21:38:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, please also report warnings, not just errors :)
21:39:02 <AnMaster> (I know about a few warings in genx, but other than that there shouldn't be any assuming you aren't on gcc 4.2.x when you may get inline ones too)
21:39:08 <SimonRC> the total to beat though is Doctor Fun, the first comic on the web (as distinct from the first web comic), which went for 10 years exactly with no misseed updates
21:39:27 <AnMaster> oh and possible one about "possible infinite loop cannot be optimised"
21:39:31 <SimonRC> (I recommend the archives' content: like Gary Larsson without the incomprehensible ones
21:39:38 <fizzie> How "within a few days" you want? I'd be using the OS X laptop on Monday next. I guess I could theoretically speaking set it up here, but I'm not sure I have electricity outlets comfortably reachable from this table.
21:39:51 <SimonRC> I do *not* recomment the archives' form.
21:40:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, I was thinking tomorrow evening or maybe Monday evening
21:40:33 <fizzie> Well, I could check the laptop still works, haven't booted it up lately. Maybe I'll try it now.
21:40:34 <SimonRC> Sorry about the typing, Im' on a really crap connection here
21:41:14 <ehird> gpg authentication with phpmyid
21:41:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, somehow I bet ehird won't help me checking if cfunge works on OS X
21:41:27 <AnMaster> otherwise I would have asked him of course
21:41:41 <SimonRC> (probably bst to start browsing here, I think: http://www.ibiblio.org/Dave/Dr-Fun/)
21:41:54 <AnMaster> SimonRC, what is that comic about?
21:42:26 <ehird> AnMaster: I would help if I could compile it, which I imagine I can't..
21:42:32 <ehird> Tarball link please
21:42:45 <ehird> last updated 06, iirc.
21:43:07 <AnMaster> ehird, well tarball, point is trying current bzr version, but I could export it to a tarball, will take a minute or two to fix
21:43:23 <ehird> Thanks. I don't have bzr on here
21:43:25 <ehird> (as nobody uses it :P)
21:43:48 <ehird> Btw. Anyone who wants to test: When you click 'Login' at http://elliott.hird.name.eso-std.org/id/, it should just say 'login failed'. Does it?
21:44:16 <AnMaster> Omploaded 'cfunge_r455.tar.bz2' to http://omploader.org/vdjly
21:44:30 <ehird> LOL ... PHP6 is using a backslash as namespace seperator
21:44:59 <AnMaster> those are like the common ones
21:45:04 <ehird> and because the php team is a bunch of bumbling retards.
21:45:06 <AnMaster> even / would work better than \
21:45:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I hope they don't get such a silly idea as prefixing it with [A-Z]:\ though.... I guess no one would be that mad
21:46:03 <ehird> C:\Namespaces\NATURAL MAPPING\
21:46:26 <ehird> Well, that's pretty close to RDF (triples of URIs; base of the entire semantic web) and XML
21:46:32 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, C:\ would be a too silly idea, no one outside this channel would think of such an idea
21:46:40 <ehird> @prefix foaf: <http://xmlns.com/foaf/1.0/>
21:46:48 <ehird> <http://elliott.hird.name/> a foaf:Person .
21:46:52 <ehird> there, foaf:Person is shorthand for...
21:46:58 <ehird> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/1.0/Person>
21:47:10 <ehird> the analogy only works, though, if php code consists of multiple file paths
21:47:16 <ehird> ... which I wouldn't be surprised at. :D
21:47:49 <ehird> AnMaster: It compiled.
21:47:59 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway cfunge should be easy to compile on OS X, some time ago I had access to a mac and even noted it worked when generating xcode project
21:48:01 <ehird> Bunch of pedantic warnings, but that's just your code.
21:48:07 <ehird> $ cmake .; make did it
21:48:13 <AnMaster> ehird, well care to pastebin warnings?
21:48:16 <ehird> didn't even read the readme :P
21:48:22 <ehird> AnMaster: stuff like
21:48:23 <ehird> [[/Users/ehird/Desktop/cfunge_r455/src/fingerprints/STRN/STRN.c: In function ‘finger_STRN_itoa’:
21:48:26 <ehird> [[/Users/ehird/Desktop/cfunge_r455/src/fingerprints/STRN/STRN.c: In function ‘finger_STRN_itoa’:
21:48:26 <ehird> /Users/ehird/Desktop/cfunge_r455/src/fingerprints/STRN/STRN.c:242: warning: ISO C does not support the ‘q’ printf length modifier]]
21:48:42 <ehird> in fact, those are all the warnings apart from in genx
21:48:58 <AnMaster> stringbuffer_append_printf(sb, "%" FUNGECELLPRI, n);
21:49:15 <ehird> FUNGECELLPRI = "q", i assume.
21:49:48 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll put a #warning in there to see
21:49:54 <Deewiant> which makes it "qd", probably.
21:50:00 <ehird> Deewiant: ah, there.
21:50:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but PRId64 is defined by standard
21:50:22 <fizzie> Yes, I also only get that 'q' printf length modifier.
21:50:24 <AnMaster> so the implementation use a non-standard value for it
21:50:33 <ehird> % ./cfunge examples/hello-concurrent1.b98
21:50:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, funny thing is, OS X is warning about it's own headers
21:50:51 <AnMaster> since PRId64 comes from the system header inttypes.h
21:50:56 <ehird> it's warning because you specified a shitload of overly-pedantic compiler options.
21:50:58 <Deewiant> the funny thing is that C has no module system
21:51:06 <Deewiant> so you can't know where the "q" came from.
21:51:12 <ehird> [[./cfunge examples/pi2.bf 1.29s user 0.01s system 97% cpu 1.325 total]]
21:51:18 <Deewiant> I'm sure GCC is full of hacks to figure stuff like that out.
21:51:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well the pre-processor could trace it
21:51:42 <Deewiant> that's not what the pre-processor is meant to do
21:52:35 <fizzie> There's a comment in inttypes.h where it defines the 'q': "these could be -- "ll" -- but that doesn't work on 10.2, and these do".
21:52:45 <AnMaster> also I have tested on freebsd 6.3 and Linux 2.6.(25|27)
21:53:07 <ehird> Okay, so now I just need to: 1. Buy elliott.hird.name 2. write a FOAF document 3. ??? 4. Prophet
21:55:13 <AnMaster> why .name? I thought no one used that
21:55:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Quite a few people do; the nice thing is that it gives me elliott@hird.name
21:55:43 <ehird> I'm not actually going to use it for my -site-, just as a little identity thingy.
21:55:55 <AnMaster> err, how do you get one from the hird one?
21:56:04 <ehird> AnMaster: .name registrations are mostly at the third-level
21:56:12 <ehird> SURNAME.name for all common surnames is taken
21:56:24 <ehird> and you can get NAME.SURNAME.name unrestricted, which also gives you NAME@SURNAME.name
21:56:34 <ehird> Ofc, you can get fdfgdfgdf.name, but not, say, smith.name.
21:56:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Why for english ones only?
21:56:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Try it, foo.name will resolve if it's reserved ;-P
21:57:10 <AnMaster> hah my surname doesn't resolve
21:57:19 <ehird> AnMaster: I wouldn't say it's a common surname. :Lp
21:57:27 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't that uncommon in Sweden
21:57:46 <ehird> Quick, buy it and resell subdomains on it for insane prices!
21:57:48 <fizzie> They seem to have mx0[1-5].nic.name doing the emails for those surname-level names.
21:58:04 <ehird> fizzie: You just give them a forward address, I think.
21:58:10 <AnMaster> ehird, well not that common either
21:58:15 <ehird> So if my sitey-type-thingy is foobarbaz.org, then i'll just forward it to ehird@foobarbaz.org.
21:58:26 <ehird> You can send email from it too
21:58:32 <ehird> So I guess it's kind of a proxy-servy-thingy.
21:58:39 <ehird> You still use your mail server, but it goes through theres.
21:59:06 <AnMaster> ehird, the telephone search thingy lists 1000 hits (max 1000 hits shown)
21:59:08 <fizzie> Heh, kallasjoki.name doesn't resolve either. There's approximately ten of us in Finland, and approximately zero elsewhere.
21:59:24 <ehird> fizzie: Well, considering everywhere else is Finland, that's a bit redundant.
22:00:29 <ehird> It's amazing how little I had to change to get phpmyid to use pgp authentication.
22:00:46 <ehird> I don't think I ended up touching anything outside of the one function.
22:01:13 <fizzie> According to the freely available statistics service thing (last updated 20.10.), there's 10 people (5 male, 5 female) who currently have the surname "Kallasjoki", "less than five" (it doesn't show the exact number in that case) who used to have it but changed, and 7 who are deceased.
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22:01:29 <ehird> fizzie: Just a tiny single family, then? :-P
22:02:24 <fizzie> ehird: Well, it wasn't very many generations away when a predecessor decided to change it to "Kallasjoki" from "Kakkinen", which.. uh, is not a very good name.
22:02:40 <AnMaster> There is even a street named after someone else with my surname in this town, sadly it includes the first name too, so I can't easily claim it was named after me ;)
22:02:43 <fizzie> Given that fi:kakka is approximately en:poop.
22:02:54 <fizzie> (And the -nen is a common diminutive suffix.)
22:03:13 <fizzie> Yes, something like that.
22:03:18 <ehird> Best surname ever.
22:03:25 <ehird> elliott.littlepoopy.nae
22:04:06 <fizzie> Also it's one letter away from being "kakkainen", which would have almost exactly the meaning "poopy", in the "covered with poop" sense.
22:04:34 <fizzie> There's a lot of people in the Lieksa graveyard with "Kakkinen" etched on their headstones.
22:04:39 <AnMaster> hm was it ehird who suggested avoiding fork() to make it easier to port to windows?
22:05:11 <ehird> Me or Deewiant, likely.
22:05:21 <fizzie> (Actually the statistics thing says a total of 992 "Kakkinen"s in Finland -- 400 deceased, 386 former names, 206 current.)
22:05:22 <AnMaster> I have the solution to the issue.
22:05:32 <AnMaster> int posix_spawn(pid_t *restrict pid, const char *restrict path,
22:05:32 <AnMaster> const posix_spawn_file_actions_t *file_actions,
22:05:32 <AnMaster> const posix_spawnattr_t *restrict attrp,
22:05:32 <AnMaster> char *const argv[restrict], char *const envp[restrict]);
22:06:06 <AnMaster> however it is optional in POSIX
22:06:14 <AnMaster> so I would need fork() as a fallback
22:06:45 <AnMaster> and yes I need something that can mess with fds to set up pipes on fd 3 and fd 4 for the child
22:07:05 <AnMaster> so either pipe() fork() and dup2() or pipe() and posix_spawn()
22:07:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Just put an ifdef in for windows, srsly. :p
22:07:37 <ehird> You'll have to learn like one winapi function.
22:08:01 <AnMaster> likely that will exist on windows anyway
22:08:04 <ehird> Yes. Just learn CreateProcessExtraUltra2000Deluxe, I mean, it's just one function.
22:08:17 <ehird> no, Ex was part of Extr
22:09:04 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I'm happily awaiting patch since I got nothing to test it on.
22:09:14 <ehird> Just install VirtualBox or something.
22:09:48 <ehird> (Unless you feel guilt in ripping off a few precious dollars microsoft.)
22:10:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Getting the 'from' in the right place.
22:10:21 <AnMaster> no you wrapped from several times
22:10:32 <ehird> proportional font <.<
22:11:08 <ehird> SimonRC: Old fart!
22:11:47 <AnMaster> ehird, you first "^ from" was under the "a" in "of a few"
22:11:57 <AnMaster> the next one was way after the )
22:12:33 <AnMaster> SimonRC, you use a proper font for irc?
22:12:50 <ehird> Excuse me for preferring to keep my eyes happy with proper font spacing and metrics. :p
22:13:34 <AnMaster> ehird, you are pardoned if you don't do it again ;P
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22:15:00 <fizzie> Re "Kakkinen", from what I've heard, *that* name came as a Finnishization of an old name "Gagge" -- I'm not quite sure of the spelling or meaning. I seem to recall someone saying it meant a "round, sort of a barrel-shaped person", but I can't seem to Google©®™ any good references.
22:15:53 <AnMaster> assuming it may have been from Swedish
22:16:03 <fizzie> Yes, most of the names around here are.
22:16:15 <fizzie> Could be "Kagge" for all I know.
22:16:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, which means stomach, often in the reference to round and oversized
22:17:12 <fizzie> Oh, okay. That sounds very likely.
22:17:57 <fizzie> English etymology dictionary for the word 'keg' gives "Swed. kagge, Norweg. kagge, a keg, a round mass or heap. Prob. named from its roundness."
22:18:23 <ehird> Little Poopy Stomach
22:18:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, however in modern usage it is used about fat stomach
22:18:48 <AnMaster> I think it may actually refer to a round container in older usage
22:19:02 <fizzie> I can understand them changing the name from "a fat guy" to something else, but I *really* can't fathom why change it to "a poopy guy".
22:19:04 <AnMaster> however it is not a word I use actively
22:19:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, as I said in older usage it may actually mean a round container, for liquid iirc
22:19:55 <AnMaster> and since you can get fat from that, I guess that is why it changed meaning
22:20:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, as for "poopy" it may have meant something else back then
22:20:37 <ehird> little fat poopy guy
22:20:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, the story I told was that the name was given to some ancestor of us in a Swedish army or other, and based on the physical resemblance to a keg, in the "barrel of liquid" sense.
22:20:55 <AnMaster> ehird, no you can't use several meanings at once
22:21:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes i can
22:21:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, well would be fat then I guess ;P
22:21:11 * SimonRC never notivced the similarity of English cack and keg before now.
22:21:39 <fizzie> I don't have any good reference materials for Finnish language, I don't know how recent the "kakka" thing is.
22:21:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do you manage "kk"?
22:22:34 <fizzie> Finnish is full of double-consonants. I'm not good at all in explaining pronunciation, though.
22:23:00 <AnMaster> I mean Swedish use double consonants to make the vowel in front short, but we use ck not kk
22:24:04 <fizzie> Well, laterals ('L') are easy to elongate.
22:24:13 <AnMaster> since (also) is "också", not "ochså"
22:24:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, um? We never make the consonants long
22:24:37 <AnMaster> we make the vowels in front short
22:25:09 <AnMaster> I guess this means it is LR(2) or so in that aspect
22:25:10 <fizzie> Wikipedia "Gemination" article says you do: "In some languages, e.g. -- Swedish -- consonant length and vowel length depend on each other. That is, a short vowel within a stressed syllable always precedes a long consonant or a consonant cluster, whereas a long vowel must be followed by a short consonant."
22:25:33 <fizzie> Finnish and Japanese are mentioned in the third paragraph.
22:25:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, hrrm. Do they give any examples?
22:26:26 <fizzie> Basically it's pronounced by simply making the pause longer.
22:26:32 <fizzie> For stop-style consonants.
22:26:58 <fizzie> The others ('rr', 'nn' and such) are of course trivial.
22:27:33 <AnMaster> what ones would be "stop style"?
22:28:38 <AnMaster> damn don't have any Swedish /usr/share/dict/* here and can't think of any example
22:28:44 <AnMaster> also kk never happens it is ck
22:29:33 <fizzie> And based on some Wikipedia reading, the nasal consonats are also called "stops", but those don't really count.
22:30:18 <fizzie> In any case, Finnish makes the consonant/vowel-length variation mean completely different words. Wikipedia gives the example taka "back", takka "fireplace", taakka "burden".
22:30:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, you mean tt would cause a long pause after it?
22:30:58 -!- kt3k has quit ("CHOCOA").
22:31:01 <fizzie> No, the pause before the actual sound burst of 't' is elongated.
22:31:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is no pause on either side of any t (except after the word)
22:31:59 <fizzie> There is a pause *in* 't'. The vocal tract is closed there, then opened which produces the actual t-like sound.
22:32:11 <fizzie> Just record it and look at it in Audacity if you don't believe me. :p
22:32:31 <fizzie> I guess it's called "hold" and not "pause", but anyway.
22:32:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't check right now due to ppl sleeping in the next room and thin walls
22:34:11 -!- peek_you has joined.
22:35:58 <fizzie> In any case, the hold-time before the tongue (in case of "t") is released is made longer.
22:39:56 <fizzie> There's actually a Wikipedia English example -- in English gemination seems to occur mostly just across words -- for geminated 'k': "black coat", which is pronounced [blæˈkːoʊt]. So there's a single geminated 'k' sound, not two distinct 'k's.
22:55:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:55:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you have any idea how to list open fds for a process? from inside gdb preferred
22:58:03 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:58:19 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined.
22:58:31 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:58:33 -!- Asztal^_^ has changed nick to Asztal.
23:00:23 -!- kwertii has joined.
23:02:55 <ehird> AnMaster: heres how .name works -
23:03:00 <ehird> when you buy a.b.name, b.name is then reserved.
23:03:06 <ehird> so hird.name is reserved from someone.hird.name
23:04:04 <AnMaster> ehird, can you register b.name directly?
23:04:29 <ehird> (then people can't register a.b.name, obviously)
23:05:49 <ehird> but elliott.hird.name is appealing to me mostly for the elliott@hird.name tie-in
23:10:15 <ehird> http://www.getfirepow.com/ are all these "MAKE MONEY SOFTWARE COOL" sites made with the same software...?
23:10:24 <ehird> They all look identical
23:13:15 -!- M0ny has quit ("Hum... Hum...").
23:14:25 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
23:14:29 <AnMaster> ehird, if I had my surname I could get whatever@thatname.name
23:14:37 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, you could
23:14:43 <ehird> but i can't get hird.name :-P
23:15:06 <ehird> due to someone else buying <foo>.hird.name
23:15:08 <ehird> come to think of it
23:15:11 <ehird> it might have been me
23:15:15 <ehird> as i used to own elliott.hird.name
23:16:00 <AnMaster> ehird, how expensive are .name?
23:16:15 <ehird> same cost as most domains, though sometimes a little more expensive
23:16:35 <AnMaster> well I don't know the normal cost
23:16:51 <AnMaster> (how do you pay for them since you are too young to have a credit card hm?)
23:16:52 <ehird> AnMaster: hmm, about 79 kronor a year, i think
23:16:55 <ehird> though i might have got that wrong
23:17:12 <AnMaster> ehird, well if you had pasted it in Euro or whatever I could have converted
23:17:19 <ehird> AnMaster: i converted with google :-P
23:17:27 <ehird> also, in the uk there's this silly cardy thingy for people 13 and over
23:17:34 <fizzie> AnMaster: Usually just "ls -l /proc/pid/fd/" is enough on Linux.
23:17:48 <ehird> it's called a "cash card". which, iirc, makes withdraws fail if you don't have enough money on it
23:17:49 <AnMaster> ehird, there is? Strange, I got my card around when I got 18
23:17:54 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not a proper credit card
23:18:22 <AnMaster> ehird, also I have mine fail if I lack money on my account, no credit when I don't have stuff
23:18:46 <ehird> before that - actually i don't recall if my registrar supports those cardy things atm, been a while since i registered a domain - i used the "parental overlord registers + i pay back in cash" method
23:19:26 <AnMaster> actually my card is only valid in the cash machines, not for shopping with
23:19:51 <ehird> thinking about it, i believe i've only ever made one transaction with that card since i got it in august
23:20:11 <ehird> (buying an album from http://warpmart.com/, I think)
23:20:39 <fizzie> I'm not sure, openbsd's /proc probably doesn't expose that info. It's somewhere in the kernel's data structures, obviously; it's been so long since my openbsd days that I don't really remember what sort of tools there were for digging it.
23:20:50 <fizzie> Also, "lsof" has a "for this pid" mode, and I think it does openbsd too.
23:20:56 * AnMaster still remember the looks he got when he paid for a 4 digit camera using 3 digit paper money.
23:21:06 * Sgeo checks out the Intellichat thingy
23:21:13 <AnMaster> though that was before I turned 18
23:21:37 <ehird> i look way younger
23:21:45 <ehird> i'm about as tall as a 8-9 year old
23:22:24 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't recall.
23:22:24 <GregorR> People guess that I'm around 22.
23:22:39 <ehird> haha, the php \ namespace separator won over: **, ^^, %%, :>, :), and ::: .
23:22:49 <AnMaster> ehird, what is wrong with :: ?
23:22:50 <ehird> :> i like the smilies :)
23:22:58 <ehird> AnMaster: it's used for ClassName::STATIC_VAR, I think
23:23:16 <ehird> string concatenation (inherited from perl)
23:23:25 <fizzie> Still, C++ does :: for ClassName::STATIC_VAR and has no problems using additional "foo::"s for namespaces.
23:23:29 <ehird> AnMaster: $obj->meth
23:23:40 <ehird> fizzie: except php is, as i said, run by a bunch of bumbling retards
23:23:50 <ehird> they probably can't make the parser do that
23:23:54 <ehird> AnMaster: func_name()
23:24:40 <ehird> AnMaster: you can't have func-name and 1 - 2 without insane parsing shit
23:24:45 <ehird> dylan did it, so does xslt
23:24:53 <GregorR> <ehird> i'm about as tall as a 8-9 year old
23:24:57 <AnMaster> ehird, err you can have - in function names in many languages
23:25:05 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure scheme got it, oh wait yeah right
23:25:06 <ehird> AnMaster: not the same languages with infix mathematics.
23:26:34 <AnMaster> I thought // was commend in php?
23:27:01 <oerjan> hm wasn't there some language that used ' as a separator?
23:27:02 <ehird> @function(errors,will,be,silently,ignored)
23:27:16 <ehird> AnMaster: its because:
23:27:25 <ehird> will yell to the browser the error
23:27:28 <ehird> and there's no exception structure
23:27:44 <ehird> ¤ is not on most keyboards
23:28:17 <ehird> AnMaster: a ? b : c
23:29:04 <AnMaster> ehird, what oerjan said about ' above
23:29:14 <ehird> 'string without interpolation'
23:29:43 <AnMaster> I only knew what interpolation was for images...
23:30:07 <ehird> a, b, c; works I think
23:30:28 <ehird> bit | masks & fuck_yeah
23:31:12 * SimonRC wishes Javaa had a good syntax for saying "If this argument to the method is null, don't call the method but just result in null".
23:31:16 <ehird> AnMaster: a > b && b < c
23:31:27 <SimonRC> Being able to do that for the dispatch object would be a good start even
23:31:36 <ehird> AnMaster: php's parser is shitty, ad-hoc and is not context sensitive.
23:31:40 <ehird> it cannot do that, i believe.
23:31:45 <ehird> namespace><foobar><Abc
23:31:49 <ehird> is ... impossible to read
23:31:57 <AnMaster> ehird, you could make >< one token with higher priority than >
23:32:10 <ehird> AnMaster: you think it has a proper lexer?
23:32:14 <ehird> it's a big mass of ad-hoc c
23:32:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I'd assume lex/yacc but I guess I were wrong
23:32:56 <ehird> I'm going now, anyway. Bye.
23:33:25 <AnMaster> ehird, but if it sees a + then?
23:33:36 <AnMaster> does it think that can't be ++ ?
23:34:33 <fizzie> oerjan: Perl supports both :: and ', but the latter one is rather rarely used. One of the perldoc pages says which language ' comes from, but I can't find it. There was some sort of sentece about "I'll use :: so C++ programmers can pretend they know what's going on -- I could've used ' so that <foo> programmers ..."
23:35:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, but perl got an amazing parser, it has to or it couldn't handle that language
23:35:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I'd use a single :
23:35:30 <SimonRC> fizzie: I have a nagging feeling that ' is from ADA
23:36:02 <fizzie> That was my recollection too, but couldn't be sure.
23:36:10 <SimonRC> (then there is the great ML-family-vs-Miranda-family debate: : for cons and :: for type annotation, or ice-versa)
23:36:58 <SimonRC> AnMaster: the first one is reminiscent of one of those small crazy languages, like Io or such
23:37:04 <fizzie> "[Using :: instead of '] also makes C++ programmers feel like they know what's going on--as opposed to using the single quote as separator, which was there to make Ada programmers feel like they knew what was going on."
23:37:18 <AnMaster> I took the : syntax from Erlang actually
23:37:43 <oerjan> probably got it from Prolog?
23:37:59 <AnMaster> what lang is Io? I heard the name before
23:38:07 <AnMaster> more and more recently in fact
23:38:11 <oerjan> there are two languages by that name
23:38:36 <oerjan> the small, crazy and nearly esoteric one that few remember
23:38:52 <oerjan> and some object-oriented fancy thing
23:39:06 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_(programming_language) is the only one on wikipedia
23:39:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, so which one did SimonRC mean?
23:39:21 <AnMaster> and can you tell me about the small crazy one
23:39:26 * SimonRC tries to remember if Io is the one with omnipresent backtracking
23:39:33 <SimonRC> like the list monad being everywhere
23:39:46 <oerjan> SimonRC: no that's Icon
23:40:28 <AnMaster> tell me about the Io one that is small and crazy
23:40:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: there's a link from the new IO to the old one iirc
23:41:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, not on their front page at least
23:42:14 <AnMaster> http://iolanguage.com/issues/browse.cgi
23:42:25 <oerjan> their page seems to have changed a lot
23:43:04 <SimonRC> Ah, no Io is the smalltalk with the source code attitude of LISP
23:43:24 <SimonRC> i.e. source code is a directly-accesible tree of objects that is trivil to manipulate
23:43:36 <oerjan> SimonRC: not the crazy one then
23:43:51 <oerjan> the _really_ crazy one, that is
23:43:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, anything useful on http://web.archive.org/web/20060613184339/www.iolanguage.com/about/ ?
23:45:32 <oerjan> both the links in there are to wayback
23:45:54 <oerjan> er wait i'm reading _in_ wayback
23:47:18 <oerjan> Amalthea was from the esolang community iirc
23:47:44 <oerjan> or from the older mailing list
23:48:48 <oerjan> http://www.guldheden.com/~sandin/amalthea.html
23:51:00 <AnMaster> probably should try to learn that language one day
23:51:29 <AnMaster> I wonder if it suggests using CamlCase...
23:52:11 <oerjan> i don't quite remember
23:52:21 <AnMaster> would be rather funny if it did
23:54:10 <AnMaster> two ;; for ending statements!?
23:54:37 <oerjan> in ocaml? yeah it's ugly
23:54:49 <AnMaster> well ok, I don't want to learn it
23:55:07 <AnMaster> ugly syntax, but nice idea/implementation
23:55:19 <oerjan> there's an improved syntax using its preprocessor iirc
23:56:48 <oerjan> F# the .NET language is based on ocaml and i vaguely recall (from discussions) that it has an improved syntax too
23:56:49 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando").
23:58:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, F# is horrible, I checked it out a bit ago (just checked examples on wikipedia page)
00:00:07 * oerjan remembers there were fresh apples around
00:00:47 <AnMaster> haskell got a kind of messy syntax too, but F# is way worse
00:01:00 <AnMaster> and yes I realise this may upset some people her
00:01:05 <Asztal> I prefer Haskell's syntax so far
00:01:28 <oerjan> from my landlady's garden
00:01:43 <AnMaster> Asztal, scheme syntax is way more elegant
00:02:04 <AnMaster> isn't there some liskell or something?
00:02:10 <Asztal> elegant, yes, easy on the eyes, not really
00:03:14 * oerjan swats AnMaster for insulting haskell syntax ----###
00:03:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, and I still do it, I think the entire ML family of languages got a horrible syntax
00:04:36 <oerjan> haskell's syntax is quite different from ML. it belongs to that Miranda family mentioned above
00:05:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, well Haskell is ugly too
00:05:49 <SimonRC> nah, Haskell's got a reasonable syntax
00:06:16 * SimonRC thinks up a C-like syntax for Haskell
00:06:27 * AnMaster prefers prolog like or scheme like
00:06:37 <AnMaster> C is ok but prolog style or lisp are better
00:06:49 <SimonRC> AnMaster: but it's all superficial; there isn't anthing horrible underneath
00:07:22 <AnMaster> what about those ugly ` everywhere?
00:07:42 <AnMaster> hamming = 1 : map (2*) hamming `merge` map (3*) hamming `merge` map (5*) hamming <-- example from wikipedia
00:07:42 <SimonRC> depends on how you're using it
00:07:53 <oerjan> those are superficial too
00:07:53 <AnMaster> seen them used in lots of Haskell code
00:08:31 <SimonRC> they are the syntax for making infix operators out of ordinary functions
00:08:39 <oerjan> it's not a dead key in US keyboard i think
00:08:41 <SimonRC> since when was ` a dead key
00:08:53 <AnMaster> SimonRC, on my keyboard ` is Shift-' Space
00:09:05 <AnMaster> they don't care about i18n then ;P
00:09:40 <SimonRC> you could, like, not use infix functions with text names then
00:09:55 <SimonRC> suggest a better notation?
00:09:55 <AnMaster> SimonRC, I prefer scheme, there are no strange ones
00:10:10 <AnMaster> so that is not very i18n friendly either
00:10:21 <AnMaster> scheme seems to be very i18n friendly
00:10:27 <SimonRC> you could write the above without te backquotes in LISP style instead
00:10:52 <AnMaster> SimonRC, still to much syntax sugar
00:10:54 <oerjan> hamming = 1 : merge (merge (map (2*) hamming) (map (3*) hamming)) (map (5*) hamming)
00:10:59 <AnMaster> better have one way to write everything
00:11:08 <oerjan> the infix merge really helps in that case
00:11:37 <SimonRC> currying is very nice, even though you could use lambda
00:11:57 <AnMaster> Lisp is the solution to every problem :P
00:12:03 <SimonRC> AnMaster: haskell doesn't use lists as source code in the same way
00:12:07 <Asztal> I think it definitely makes things more readable in the case of things like `isPrefixOf` and maybe `fmap`
00:12:13 <AnMaster> SimonRC, that is another downside
00:12:31 <AnMaster> I like i18n friendly languages
00:12:32 <Asztal> only for you with your dead keys :)
00:12:43 <SimonRC> but the price of lists as source code is lists as source code
00:12:53 <oerjan> scheme has ` too, remember
00:12:55 <AnMaster> Asztal, and Finnish, and Norwegian (iirc) and Danish and so on
00:12:56 <Asztal> I just use AltGr for those
00:13:05 <AnMaster> Asztal, and lots and lots of non US/UK users
00:13:21 <SimonRC> if you have a function with two arguments, you need a way to seperate the arguments and a way to specify what the function is
00:13:26 <SimonRC> an infix operator does both at once
00:13:29 <Asztal> yes, there's even a UK keyboard which has ` as a dead key
00:13:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, ok scheme has ` in macros, but I don't use scheme macros a lot since they are messy
00:14:03 <oerjan> ` is not just for macros
00:14:06 <SimonRC> AnMaster: you can avoid ` in Haskell too if you like
00:14:15 <oerjan> it's useful for building lists with lots of fixed parts
00:14:26 <SimonRC> but in LISP-likes, you must seperate the operands with space, which is not as distinctive as an operator
00:14:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm ok, never used it outside macros
00:14:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | oh... darn, (a (5)) isn't considered a special form since what is evaluated and what is not is decided at the beginning of the eval-function....
00:14:32 <fizzie> There is also not much use for quasiquote/unquote if you use syntax-rules macros or some-such; just in defmacro-like "raw code transformers" things.
00:14:58 <AnMaster> SimonRC, look in C-like language I write foo(bar, quux) so that is , space
00:15:57 <AnMaster> but I normally avoid all macros
00:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | You have to use hacks to make CSS do the right things in different browsers..
00:16:39 <fizzie> Personally I've made undead (zombified?) the two dead keys (acute+grave-accent and umlaut+tilde+hat) the Finnish (and I guess Swedish too) keymap has, since I type ^, ~ and ` a lot more often than accented characters.
00:17:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, would seriously confuse the random other users of this computer :/
00:17:41 <fizzie> It's just in my personal xkb configuration.
00:17:50 <fizzie> Although this computer doesn't have any other users either.
00:18:17 <AnMaster> and how would you use the dead key ones when you need them
00:19:00 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure; there are some xkb layout-switcher thingies that put a small icon in the system tray for that.
00:19:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, would this be in .xmodmaprc ?
00:20:46 <fizzie> There's a xkb "variant" of at least the fi keymap called "nodeadkeys". Seems like I've put it into xorg.conf here, but the same effect should be achievable by just arranging for "setxkbmap fi nodeadkeys" to be executed somehow.
00:21:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, I do sometimes use dead keys so
00:21:42 <fizzie> Well, you could configure some keyboard shortcuts to fiddle with the mapping. That of course depends on the desktop environment in use.
00:21:55 <fizzie> I use awesome on this box, which is pretty rare, I guess.
00:24:01 <fizzie> Well, in KDE I'm pretty sure you can just use the configuramation places to configure a per-user keyboard layout setting.
00:24:15 <fizzie> It would be pretty strange if it wasn't a per-user thing.
00:24:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, It messes with my xmodmap
03:12:29 -!- ihope has joined.
03:14:20 * Sgeo can't believe oerjan doesn't know who Warrigal is
03:14:21 <ihope> The skull on my desk is from the same family as the warrigal.
03:14:32 <ihope> How would oerjan know who Warrigal is?
03:15:14 <Sgeo> oerjan, can't you at least figure it out?
03:15:43 <oerjan> i found definitions, but no proper names
03:15:43 <ihope> I asked for a canine skull, and got a vulpine skull. Still canid, though.
03:16:45 <ihope> Presumably, either Sgeo or Warrigal arrived soon before Sgeo said "hi Warrigal".
03:17:20 <oerjan> there is no Warrigal here
03:17:50 <ihope> Well, his nick isn't Warrigal.
03:18:37 <oerjan> ihope: so you were foxed?
03:19:27 <ihope> I wonder how easy it is to get the skull of a warrigal.
03:19:29 <oerjan> (We apologize for the delay in our pun service)
03:20:03 <ihope> Warrigals are "vulnerable", according to the IUCN Red List, according to Wikipedia.
03:21:02 <ihope> I guess they can be trapped and poisoned in some areas.
03:23:40 <ihope> So probably not more than a couple hundred dollars.
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03:37:26 <ihope> Fox skulls on eBay are pretty cheap, it seems. I wonder if shipping can be $30 for a $20 item.
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03:38:12 <Slereah> Why are you looking for fox skulls
03:40:01 <ihope> Just wondering how much they cost, really. My fantasies include buying a dingo skull (none of those on eBay) and... I dunno.
03:43:03 <Slereah> I hope you're not buying those for anything immoral.
03:47:28 <ihope> What immoral things could you do with a skull, apart from scaring people?
03:49:23 <Slereah> ihope : Are you willing to see NSFW pictures as an answer
03:50:43 <Slereah> Then, you will never know :o
03:51:21 <ihope> Unless grinding it into a powder, dissolving the powder in acid, and sprinkling the mixture on flowers is NSFW.
03:57:18 <ihope> My cat is now sniffing the skull intently and licking it a little. The lower jaw's going to fall out from under it if she keeps touching it like that.
03:57:37 <ihope> I guess it still smells like either a fox head or glue.
03:58:44 <oerjan> how do you know if a cat is hallucinating anyhow?
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03:59:13 <Slereah> If it meows about giant mice
03:59:52 <ihope> If it's responding to absent stimuli, it's hallucinating?
04:00:59 <ihope> It's more likely that it smells of glue than that she's hallucinating that it smells of glue.
04:01:06 <Slereah> Cats always respond to inexistant stimuli
04:01:54 <oerjan> i mean, maybe she's getting high on it
04:03:15 <ihope> Any glue on it is at least a few days old, perhaps many years old.
04:03:57 <oerjan> oh well. go make a lolcat picture or something.
04:04:04 * ihope offers her the foramen magnum, that being where the brain went
04:04:29 <ihope> I think it mostly smells like me.
06:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Not sure what ACPI is, though. heard the term, but I don't know what it is. I'm silly,.
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06:49:34 <oklopol> hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii :)
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07:17:27 <Asztal> hmm... F#'s syntax really is annoying
07:28:50 <oklopol> err is it a functional language?
07:45:21 <psygnisfive> wait no sorry i was thinking of another language
07:52:48 -!- mental has changed nick to lament.
07:53:57 <oklopol> why don't i have a cool anagram
07:54:36 <oklopol> if i was oclopock, i could have "cockpool"
07:54:57 <oklopol> lockpool is easier, but that makes no sense
07:58:07 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklokok.
07:59:03 <Asztal> oh, how boring, I have... aszalt, meaning dried/parched/desiccated :)
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08:02:10 <oklokok> hehe, my irl name has the anagram "i loves all"
08:02:33 <Jiminy_Cricket> the name "daniel stanley" has the best anagram: "needs it anally"
08:05:45 <psygnisfive> your last name is an anagram of either sole or sola
08:07:29 <oklokok> psygnisfive: well i said that partle because i knew you'd start wondering about my name (assuming it's not in my whois, i haven't checked)
08:09:25 <psygnisfive> i should know, if im gonna be your slaveboy
08:10:19 <lament> my name is nothing special, but my phone number is FETUS-71
08:10:28 <lament> ( http://dialabc.com/words/search/ )
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08:24:48 <oklokok> (haha i'm also "loli slave")
08:27:59 <oklokok> the anagram engine didn't know the term "loli" for some reason
08:28:19 <oklokok> me too, i should ask them to add it
08:31:41 <oklokok> My original loli slave amputee story
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09:46:36 <AnMaster> Asztal, F#? Pronounced as F-blunt right?
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10:22:56 <fizzie> I made some befunge-commentation javascript: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html
10:22:57 <fungot> fizzie: i cannot assume good faith and leave it. peace. user:deeceevoicedeeceevoice 15:20, 23 nov 2004 ( utc) fnord
10:23:37 <fizzie> Haven't added much comments, but you can see the format in http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot-hl.txt -- all that is parsed with client-side javascript to make that thing. You should be able to click on the regions and see the comment text.
10:23:37 <fungot> fizzie: negative liberty means freedom from interference. classical liberalism is the opposite of social conservatism. ' ' google" and ' ' must" be added to the article.
10:23:54 <fizzie> And it probably only works in FF3, because I suck at cross-browser-stuff and that's what I used to write it.
10:28:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, I can view comments in ff2
10:29:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, in konq 3.5.x the green and blue aren't transparent
10:29:40 <AnMaster> so you can't see what it comments
10:29:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, also is it suppoed to not be scrollable?
10:30:41 <fizzie> Do you have one or two scrollbars in there?
10:31:09 <fizzie> Yeah, actually in FF3 too; I broke the height calculation when I added some padding in the top panel.
10:31:15 <AnMaster> in konq one goes away when I resize, in ff2 it doesn't
10:31:38 <AnMaster> scroll wheel still doesn't work in either
10:32:36 <fizzie> In here the scroll wheel works if the mouse is in the scrollable region. The top comment-display-area is supposed to stay fixed, and only the code part should scroll. But I have apparently broken it.
10:33:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, it also scrolls sideways in ff and konq
10:33:56 <fizzie> Well, I removed the padding now. In FF3 it now works correctly.
10:34:00 <AnMaster> considering the code "box" is less than 1/3rd
10:34:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, works in ff2, still no scrollwheel working in konq
10:35:01 <fizzie> I was in the middle of trying to think of something to say there when I noticed the scrolling issues.
10:35:07 <fizzie> So I just wrote something and saved.
10:35:35 <fizzie> Maybe konq does scrollwheel-scrolling only for the page, and not for separate elements of the page.
10:35:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, possible, but I think it works in text boxes and such
10:36:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, if focus is in a text box I can scroll it
10:36:42 <AnMaster> so I need to click in the text box once
10:36:53 <AnMaster> can't scroll your page even when I click in it
10:36:59 * AnMaster checked on http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=edit
10:37:15 <fizzie> Yes, well, it's just a <div>, not a form element which could really have the focus.
10:37:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway since the green areas are opaque in konq it isn't very usable there
10:37:51 <AnMaster> since I can't see what they comment
10:38:16 <fizzie> Yeah. Those should get the transparency from a dynamically created CSS rule for the corresponding class, which has "opacity: 0.2;" in them.
10:38:26 <fizzie> Since the colors get set correctly, I think the CSS rule generation at least works.
10:38:38 <fizzie> Maybe it doesn't do CSS3 "opacity", although that sounds a bit strange.
10:38:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh you claim to be xhtml 1.1?
10:38:42 <AnMaster> http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fzem.fi%2F~fis%2Ffungot.html
10:38:42 <fungot> AnMaster: according to fnord, the land neighbouring roman gaul. it is meant to work. apparently, they never got fnord 22:54, 29 december 2006 ( utc
10:38:58 <fizzie> Yes, I just copied the page from some earlier one.
10:39:04 <fizzie> Haven't had time to check for validity yet.
10:40:31 <fizzie> Should probably move the javascript part to a separate file anyway.
10:41:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you use PERL btw? If yes my local copy have some changes, it uses fcntl to set "close on exec" flag for SOCK fds
10:45:48 <fizzie> Okay, down to two errors now. Funny that it doesn't let me use xsi:schemaLocation there -- the <html> start tag looks very much like the example one in http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/conformance.html#strict
10:46:42 <fizzie> Yeah, I get the same error from the validator if I copy-paste the "example of an HMTL 1.1 document" there to a page and try validating that.
10:47:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I can't load the example. firefox says www.w3.org timed out
10:49:21 <fizzie> Strange; it does speak to me.
10:49:41 <AnMaster> seems firefox is stupid and use same round robin dns entry every time
10:50:15 <fizzie> Also strange that it doesn't allow the "id" attribute in the 'style' node; it is listed in the allowed attributes in the xhtml-modularization document. Oh-well.
10:52:03 <AnMaster> curl -H "Host: www.w3.org" http://128.30.52.38/TR/xhtml11/conformance.html | less works
10:53:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, is that comment app generic enough to be useful for other programs?
10:53:37 <AnMaster> does it offer some web interface to edit comments?
10:53:57 <fizzie> No, of course not; that's a lot more work.
10:54:25 <fizzie> I don't see why it shouldn't work for other programs, though.
10:54:56 <fizzie> Well, those would get the side-scrollbar, which might mess up the height calculation somewhat.
10:55:27 <fizzie> That's probably relatively simple to fix, though. It's just that my CSS-fu is weak.
10:55:33 <AnMaster> well mycology isn't as wide as my monitor
10:55:57 <fizzie> 1920x1200 here, but I have only about 60 % of it allocated to the browser.
10:56:37 <fizzie> Re the opacity in konq, I could trivially fix that by duplicating the underlying text -- then it wouldn't need transparency at all, actually.
10:57:39 <AnMaster> may be messy in other browsers if you get offset wrong
10:57:39 <fizzie> Maybe I'll think about doing it that way.
10:57:55 <AnMaster> + selecting text is harder then
10:58:12 <fizzie> It could already be a bit messy if the borders go wrong, and at least ff3 makes text-selecting feel difficult even currently.
10:58:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, selecting text works very well in ff2
10:58:47 <AnMaster> even within the middle of a green block
10:59:02 <fizzie> Even a selection that spans a block boundary?
10:59:26 <fizzie> In FF3 it keeps selecting the spaces that are in the block if I try to select there.
10:59:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, if you start inside a block yes
10:59:42 <AnMaster> if you start outside it wraps around the other way
10:59:44 <SimonRC> what is this " http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html Things
10:59:46 <fungot> SimonRC: this guy seriously looks like an old fnord o'brien. maybe this is because every friday and saturday night mainstream media portrays sex workers as the easy target for violence on dull cop shows." totally unnecessary. fnord ( user talk:ironangelalicetalk) 01:59, 4 august 2007 ( utc)
11:00:10 <fizzie> Well, that's what I get if I start in the middle of the box and try to make the selection go out of it.
11:00:19 <fungot> SimonRC: if it's accurate, i am unsure about the " only to find nothing of the validity of the definition which is appropriate in this page refer to the character if this were better it would belong at national anthem --user:wetmanwetman 05:31, 15 july 2007 ( utc)
11:00:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, works fine for level 1 boxes
11:01:05 <AnMaster> SimonRC, it is a befunge comment viewer
11:01:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw for me ; ; work fine
11:01:18 <fizzie> It's not that strange if you consider the implementation: it's currently done by sticking another "white-space: pre;" div positioned on top of the code text, filled with spaces but with the commented area spaces in suitable <span> tags.
11:01:21 <AnMaster> since my funge coding style is very linear
11:01:34 <AnMaster> so I end up using 11x> at the end of each line
11:01:54 <AnMaster> followed by comments past column 75 or so
11:02:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes copying the selected text doesn't actually work
11:03:24 <fizzie> I was thinking about doing it by generating separate (empty) div-rectangles that were just positioned on top of the commented areas, but couldn't figure out a very clean way to specify a constant width for characters (without making those separate boxes too).
11:04:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, I require that using the function to increase text size should work ;P
11:04:57 <fizzie> I guess I could've used <span> tags in the source text, and then some javascript to position the comment-marker-divs using those spans as markers.
11:06:52 <fizzie> At least with FF3 the text-size-changing mostly works, although occasionally I get some white or darker-green horizontal lines inside blocks, from overlapping or gaps between the per-line <span>s.
11:06:58 <AnMaster> hm what would that be in HQL? ON EVENT CLICKING ON ELEMENT span DO INVOKE JAVASCRIPT FUNCTION "CommentClicked" WITH ATTRIBUTE id OF THIS ELEMENT AS PARAMETER
11:08:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, why is there are but of white space between every row even in the green commented blocks
11:08:18 <AnMaster> but there is some white space between each line
11:08:25 <fizzie> Oh, there is? There's not in FF3.
11:10:17 <fizzie> It's a bit tricky positioning. I use "line-height: 14px; font-size: 12px;" and then there's one pixel of bottom-padding in the comment colors. It seems to work correcly in ff3 (if I add more padding I get darker-green lines, indicating overlap) but not everywhere, I guess.
11:10:39 <AnMaster> well this is a case of underlap rather
11:12:08 <fizzie> Yes, I get "underlapping" too if try without the padding.
11:12:58 <fizzie> I think I can guess what it looks like. It probably gets fixed if I add one-pixel top-padding too to rows with no top border, but that causes overlapping in ff3.
11:13:15 <fizzie> Maybe the "span markers on the code layer and javascript-positioned empty divs on top" would be more robust, as then I could use the exact position of the next-line box for height.
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12:01:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://omploader.org/vdmJ5
12:02:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, no idea why there is unclickable green inside the blue frame
12:11:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, it seems green areas are no longer clickable at all
12:13:18 <AnMaster> the two lowest green areas are clickable
12:14:04 <AnMaster> blue yellow and red areas are all clickable
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12:16:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | so... in the case where the two factors are as big as possible.
12:37:42 <fizzie> There should be green inside the blue, that's by design; but right, the clicking thing might be a problem.
12:38:28 <fizzie> I think it's the spaces on the second layer (those blue/yellow/red ones) are occluding the green things.
12:39:41 <fizzie> I'll probably redo that with the "absolutely positioned divs with javascript" thing at some point, that way the clickability should be simply based on the ordering of the div boxes.
12:39:57 <fizzie> The "green inside blue" is by design.
12:40:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about the green not being clickable elsewhere either?
12:40:52 <AnMaster> the reload green can't be clicked for example
12:41:10 <fizzie> That's strange; that one shouldn't have problems.
12:41:31 <fizzie> Or maybe it's the second layer box that's occluding it, not the actual spaces.
12:41:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, nor the main one for loading fingerprints
12:41:59 <fizzie> Yeah, you can click the right side of the reload box, at least in FF3.
12:42:26 <AnMaster> but the one for loading fingerprints you can't click at all
12:42:28 <fizzie> The width of the second layer comes from that red box, so you can click anything that's more to the right.
12:42:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, that's odd. How comes you could click it when it was blue or yellow?
12:43:05 <fizzie> Red, blue, yellow are all on the second layer.
12:43:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, well before the red existed you could click green anywhere, even when there was blue
12:43:59 <AnMaster> anyway that kind of breaks a lot if it breaks in ff3 too so you'd want to fix it
12:44:16 <fizzie> Yeah, I'll try with the div-box approach, just not right now.
12:46:07 <AnMaster> $ bzr ci -m 'Add comments to TOYS for what the function actually does, not just based on official function names.' <-- TOYS have so strange function names
12:46:30 <AnMaster> yeah I know they are intercal ones and so on
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12:47:10 <ehird> dayum, all the clocks have gone back
12:47:22 <ehird> you know what's annoying
12:47:31 <ehird> what's annoying is having clocks that automatically change
12:47:33 <ehird> and clocks that don't.
12:49:13 <AnMaster> what is even more annoying is radio-synced clocks that didn't update because of weak signal in the bedroom
12:49:28 <AnMaster> you have to move them somewhere else to get them to update
12:49:47 <ehird> well, right now I know that british time right now = GMT, which is more or less = UTC
12:49:51 <ehird> (apart from some leap second crap)
12:50:08 <AnMaster> ehird, Sweden went from CEST to CET during this night
12:50:43 <ehird> in britain, (BST = GMT+1) -> GMT
12:51:20 <AnMaster> ehird, do uou have the issue with radio-updated clocks that didn't sync too?
12:51:29 <ehird> not sure, i wouldn't really know :-P
12:51:42 <ehird> but most of the clocks haven't gone back.
12:52:01 <ehird> i know that the clock on this computer is right due to ntp.
12:52:19 <AnMaster> my alarm clock can't get signal in my bedroom, have to put it in the window of another room
12:52:30 <AnMaster> computer clocks of course use ntp here
12:52:58 <ehird> i wish os x does what windows did/does; when the clock changes due to daylight savings it gave you an alert box telling you so
12:53:10 <ehird> which is nicer than just changing it without telling you.
12:53:19 <AnMaster> ehird, huh? Why? It was mentioned in the news paper yesterday iirc
12:53:41 <ehird> that's relevant if you regularly read a newspaper :-P
12:53:58 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I do spend on average 20 minutes every day reading the newspaper
12:54:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, well, I'm in England, we don't exactly have a large selection of decent newspapers to choose from.
12:55:19 <AnMaster> we have local paper and one country-wide one. The country wide one usually have better quality, but the local one is useful for local news (duh).
12:55:52 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't there one called "Guardian" or so in UK? Heard someone said it was good
12:56:01 <oklocod> why would anyone read the news, it's a bunch of quidditch.
12:56:28 <ehird> AnMaster: There are a few decent newspapers. However, they all have sites with their articles on and I'm a cheap technophile. :-P
12:56:52 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I see no need for computer to tell me time have changed
12:57:14 <ehird> well I was disoriented when I saw it saying 11:57 when I had just looked at a clock saying 12:57
12:57:29 <ehird> (It was actually just 11:00 or so, that's the time now.)
12:58:13 <AnMaster> ehird it always tell me what timezone anyway:
12:58:37 <ehird> "Sun 11:58" is all I get in the corner, I could change it but that's all I generally ever need to know.
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12:58:49 <AnMaster> ehird, oh you don't check it from terminal?
12:58:55 <ehird> Wonder if I can get it to say YYYY-MM-DD.
12:59:08 <ehird> AnMaster: It's easier to shoot my eyes to the corner of the screen than switch to a terminal and type "date\n".
12:59:26 <ehird> LOL you can get it to speak out the time on the hour
12:59:27 <ehird> with text to speech
12:59:31 <ehird> how uselessly amusing
13:00:38 <pikhq> ehird: But not by much. :p
13:00:40 <ehird> Haha, you can get it to blink the : in MM:SS.
13:00:54 <ehird> pikhq: I check the time often enough for it to be significant.
13:01:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Not even the Long Now people go that far. :-P
13:01:07 <ehird> (They use 5 digits.)
13:01:20 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Now_Foundation
13:02:15 <AnMaster> Well then... "Ultra-long life, now 10 times longer"
13:02:34 <ehird> AnMaster: That would be a very boring life. :p
13:02:51 <AnMaster> ehird, nah life is too short already, too much to do
13:03:10 <fizzie> I've got a HH:MM in my screen stats-line nowadays.
13:03:20 <ehird> I wouldn't want to live for 800 or so years.
13:05:02 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/screen.png
13:06:36 <fizzie> (And the timestamps are off a bit right now, I do not need to be notified about that.)
13:09:27 <ehird> Gratuitous Large Screenshot with Gratuitous Blurring of IM Contacts: http://xs432.xs.to/xs432/08430/picture-1770.png (Note that the colours are probably a bit off due to stupid gamma correction crap in png and psd and blaaaaaaaah)
13:09:45 <ehird> (But it's probably not noticable.)
13:12:43 <ehird> (And yes, that is Firefox, just with a nicer theme than the OS X default.)
13:13:14 <fizzie> I could take a full-screen screenshot of this too, but since the window manager is awesome -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awesome_(window_manager) -- it would be probably approximately as interesting as that screenshot that's already in Wikipedia.
13:15:16 <ehird> fizzie: No love for xmonad? :_p
13:16:37 <fizzie> I pretty much picked a random tiling wm.
13:17:01 <ehird> xmonad is written in haskell and has an X monad.
13:17:08 <ehird> and a fibonacci-spiral tiling mode
13:17:23 <fizzie> Well, awesome has a fibonacci-spiral tiling mode stolen from xmonad, I think. :p
13:18:16 <ehird> Huh: [[# The .name Registry may stop forwarding of messages that are larger than 20 MB in size.]]
13:18:21 <ehird> (This is some unreliable document from 2004, though.)
13:18:30 <ehird> And it's not like I send attachments anyway.
13:26:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, now the fungot page is even worse in konq
13:26:14 <fungot> AnMaster: i would like to suggest reverting article back and discuss future changes. by the portuguese in british india.
13:26:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Ah, two obsolete browsers.
13:26:49 <AnMaster> y offset yes, but x is still at 0 for every of them
13:27:00 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, it's under construction now.
13:27:17 <fizzie> I'll let you know if I want someone to test it.
13:27:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Doesn't mean they aren't obsolete.
13:27:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and there is a tiny green overlap now in ff2
13:27:31 <ehird> AnMaster: <fizzie> I'll let you know if I want someone to test it.
13:27:51 <AnMaster> ehird, yes? It got here toe same second as I send my line
13:28:07 <AnMaster> I was already pressing enter by then
13:28:10 <ehird> It got here a second before. :p
13:28:32 <AnMaster> ehird, well here it didn't, and you can't assume such things about other ppl's connection
13:29:19 <ehird> Assuming that your message would come first is also an assumption that may be incorrect.
13:30:16 <AnMaster> I never assumed anything about anyone's connection except that lag is less than 30 seconds
13:30:55 <AnMaster> ehird, so what did you mean with your last comment (<ehird> Assuming that your message would come first is also an assumption that may be incorrect.) ?
13:31:24 <ehird> If I were to say that IRC was unordered, thus having no ordering assumptions, I could not follow any conversations.
13:32:14 <AnMaster> ehird, you can know that two messages are in relative order to each other the way your server saw it. You can at most get an offset of one message in any given convo I think.
13:33:01 <AnMaster> you can't see a response by A on a message from B that you haven't yet seen
13:33:39 <AnMaster> this is due to the spanning tree protocol. Should a mesh network be used instead it would not however be valid
13:34:15 <AnMaster> also two messages from the same sender always arrive in relative order
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14:28:20 <ehird> So how do you people generate passwords.
14:29:14 <ehird> Yeah, but I don't have your brain, I can't remember dsfjkshdfiury7834687ryfhf.
14:29:20 <ehird> And my current password is le suck.
14:29:48 <oklocod> well i generate only like 8-10 char passwords usually
14:43:01 <fizzie> Okay, http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html is now built with divs positioned with messy messy javascript, and therefore should be clickable in all the right places. There's still (in ff3) some empty spaces between lines that need fixing, and it's quite useless if the browser doesn't support css3 "opacity".
14:43:01 <fungot> fizzie: the content of the societies in question ( fnord kind of race riot seattle produced was different, and that it can be added to the actual memo, is a synonym of ' country' in the fnord
14:45:22 <fizzie> Should indicate the clicked block somehow, also.
14:45:46 <ehird> fizzie: how do YOU generate your passwords
14:45:57 <ehird> oklocod: commented fungot
14:45:58 <fungot> ehird: please note that it's not intentional, i have also posted a picture on this link: fnord
14:46:00 <ehird> click on the blockies
14:46:17 <ehird> fizzie: make the clicked block darker background
14:46:31 <ehird> also make them a wee darker on hover over, so it's more obvious how to use it?
14:47:17 <oklocod> ehird: i know it's commented fungot, but what i was wondering was if that was the output of a program made for commenting befunge
14:47:18 <fungot> oklocod: the polygamists tract is word-for-word from a tract tony alamo wrote. the fnord is a useful reframe option from the behaviour to the intent for the behaviour). likewise you can have " homo sapiens" redirect to " human" and mg and i can see that there is a very widely used in britain. fnord wang yu: version 2 05:12, 30 may 2006 ( utc
14:47:38 <oklocod> okay, then i've missed something i wouldn't have wanted to miss
14:47:43 <oklocod> should start reading the logs.
14:47:50 <fizzie> Well, sort-of, if you call the javascript thing a program. There's no real editor to make those comments, though.
14:48:09 <fizzie> oklocod: It just uses a manually written file -- http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot-hl.txt -- to outputize it.
14:48:09 <fungot> fizzie: what do y'all think? -user:silencesilence 21:31, 28 january 2008 ( utc)/small!-- template:unsignedip !--autosigned by sinebot--
14:48:29 <oklocod> well okay that's much less interesting
14:48:40 <ehird> it's still befunge commented
14:48:44 <ehird> just you write it in a weird format
14:49:05 <ehird> i can't imagine you'd want an actual interface oklocod :
14:49:07 <fizzie> I'll try to make the hoverization at some point. It's just that the nonrectangular blobs are built out of many divs, so I can't just stick .hl:hover { opacity: 0.4; } in there, otherwise it only darkens one part of it.
14:49:22 <ehird> fizzie: Your system kind of sucks. :D
14:49:33 <ehird> give each comment block an id in the class
14:49:41 <ehird> then .comment-34:hover .hl
14:50:21 <oklocod> ehird: i was very interested in seeing a befunge ide
14:50:28 <ehird> i'm gonna write one
14:50:40 <oklocod> i'm gonna write everything sometime.
14:51:04 <oklocod> my goal is to make the perfect programming language, then program everything with it
14:51:08 <fizzie> I'm not sure that will work; most of the things I've tried have still applied the :hover style only to the single specific div that the mouse is actually hovering above.
14:51:25 <fizzie> All the comment blocks have unique CSS classes, though, so I can do it with a bit of javascript which changes the class opacity.
14:52:29 <fizzie> Anyway, there's those ugly inter-line gaps to worry about too.
14:53:34 <ehird> fizzie: border-bottom: 3px solid greeeeeeeen
14:53:52 <ehird> i use .foo:hover .bar often
14:53:57 -!- Corun has joined.
14:55:33 <fizzie> But that's just "bar"-classed elements that are children of a "foo"-classed div that is being hovered on, isn't it?
14:57:20 <ehird> fizzie: then just .uniqclassthing:hover will work
14:57:33 <ehird> i was thinking <div><div/>+</div> structure
14:58:13 <fizzie> I think I tried that, but it still only changed the opacity of the single div of that class that I was hovering on. (Which is what I think it should be doing, too.)
14:58:33 <ehird> fizzie: you can't express that, no
14:58:46 <fizzie> I could put those separate divs inside a shared parent, but I can't put the parent anywhere visible (so that it would notice the cursor hovering) because it'd be a rectangular blob and block anything below it.
14:59:09 <ehird> now how do you generate passphrases?
14:59:23 <ehird> div { opacity: 0 }
14:59:27 <ehird> div .hl { opacity: 1; }
14:59:38 <ehird> div { background: rgba(0,0,0,0); }
14:59:47 <ehird> (s/div/therightclass/ ofc)
15:00:29 <fizzie> I don't think it will: if it's "visible enough" so that it notices the cursor hovering above it, it feels like it'd also be visible enough to block elements under it from receiving clicks. Although I haven't tried all possible combinations.
15:00:36 <fizzie> Maybe I'll just javascriptize a bit, it might be simpler.
15:00:51 <fizzie> Oh, and passwords; I just use pwgen and then agonize about someone backdooring it.
15:01:39 <ehird> what sort of passwords does it generate?
15:02:02 <fizzie> There's some flags. I usually use the "use really random and symbols too" options.
15:02:26 <ehird> fizzie: and how do you memorize them? I'm beginning to think I just have a shite brain :p
15:03:16 <fizzie> I tend to remember them pretty easily if they are passwords I actually need to use. The others (like random websites and such) I keep on an encrypted volume in a simple text file.
15:04:34 <AnMaster> <ehird> So how do you people generate passwords. <-- bash script that filters non printable chars from /dev/urandom
15:04:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, well, that's very nice, and I do that, but then I have to store it somewhere or I forget it in 5 minutes.
15:05:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah I keychain program is useful for random sites
15:05:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but then you have to pick a master password.
15:05:44 <AnMaster> ehird, yes and that I don't plan to tell anything about to anyone
15:06:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Then I'm not sure why you responded to my question as my question was how do you generate memorable passcodes
15:06:43 <AnMaster> ehird, well the question didn't include the word "memorable"
15:07:08 <ehird> Obviously I could have guessed "store them all in a keychain randomly generated".
15:07:17 <ehird> That's not rocket science. Generating a human-consumable password is.
15:07:44 <ehird> I could probably remember a password with symbols in it, but randomly mixed case would likely trip me up.
15:07:49 <AnMaster> login, keychain and gpg key have non-totally-random ones (and so does a few other). Long ones.
15:08:08 <ehird> I'm considering DiceWare.
15:08:25 <ehird> http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html
15:08:30 <ehird> I've seen some reccomendations for it.
15:10:08 <ehird> essentially i'm planning on consolodating everything into what is essentially a keychain
15:11:39 <ehird> The model: i have an ssh & gpg key with the same passcode (only different seperate you can't use one for the other...) - which is memorable but complex, and if someone gets a hold of my machine and that passcode i'm basically fucked (neither of which are likely, unless i pick a really stupid password and go dancing around with this machine in public.). Then I have a file on rutian encrypted with my gpg private key.
15:11:57 <ehird> And that file includes long, randomly-generated, unmemorable passwords.
15:12:01 <ehird> Which I use for sites.
15:12:09 <ehird> In fact, I don't even need it on rutian.
15:12:12 <ehird> I'll just do that.
15:12:18 <ehird> And then some Firefox+FireGPG+Greasemonkey automation
15:12:29 <ehird> so that I can just hit 'login' and enter my gpg passcode if i haven't already that firefox session
15:12:49 <ehird> So, a single point of failure (computer+passcode), but an incredibly unlikely one.
15:12:51 <AnMaster> ehird, aren't there good existing alternatives?
15:12:53 <ehird> And also convenient.
15:13:17 <AnMaster> I'm sure there are ones for OS X too
15:13:23 <ehird> AnMaster: OS X has a built-in keychain.
15:13:42 <ehird> But you're missing the point absolutely.
15:13:50 <ehird> The point is that it's tied to my gpg key.
15:14:04 <AnMaster> and why exactly do you want that?
15:14:16 <ehird> my gpg key & my ssh key and the applications thereof - I trust their security to the highest degree, and I can easily manage them both.
15:14:26 <ehird> It is only natural to build it on top of that.
15:14:37 <ehird> It's also more portable than the Keychain, ofc.
15:14:47 <ehird> Although I'd never actually put it on another machine, naturally.
15:15:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Why wouldn't i?
15:16:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Then why did you say it in the first place?
15:16:11 <ehird> Oh, let me guess - it was a jab at my OS X usage?
15:17:05 <fizzie> Okay, the fungot.html page has opacity-setting on hoverization and clickation.
15:17:06 <fungot> fizzie: map you are mentioning is official ( if we are going to contribute to an encyclopedia entry. right now it just reads like an essay rather than an encyclopedia article about science. fnord used science to justify their work to themselves from an ethical perspective by instigating a course at kings ( london) entitled ' the social impact of the fnord
15:17:32 <fizzie> I'd go to the lectures if our university had a course called "the social impact of the fnord".
15:17:33 <ehird> fizzie: The rollover change is alsmost unnoticable on green blocks
15:17:50 <fizzie> Yes, I may rethink the colors themselves at some point.
15:18:07 <ehird> Very nice, though.
15:18:13 <fizzie> Currently it's opacity 0.15 by default, 0.25 when hovering and 0.5 when selected.
15:18:17 <ehird> fizzie: I'd suggest not having to click, though, actually.
15:18:38 <ehird> I'd also make the comment appear from the side, and pop out a line to it from the block, but that's just me.
15:18:52 <ehird> Like a pseudo-speechbubble, kinda.
15:19:25 <fizzie> Mm. Well, I may change it so that it puts the comment up there already without clicking, unless some other block is selected.
15:19:40 <ehird> That seems reasonable.
15:22:03 <fizzie> I should comment the rest of fungot too, but it's such a mess. Those green-block-style "this region of code does approximately what" parts are easy, though.
15:22:04 <fungot> fizzie: an anon made some pov edits to the article, and the ones that went up for trial. also there are gsp+, etc...) for our stuff, also try:
15:22:35 <ehird> fizzie: I'd also remove the pointer cursor, it kind of flickers a bit sometimes so you could just trash it.
15:24:23 <fizzie> Yes, with the hover-coloring it's maybe not necessary.
15:26:02 <ehird> I think I'll try diceware.
15:26:24 <ehird> You know what? Passwords are stupid. When can I get a brain implant?
15:47:15 <ehird> I wonder what's wrong with using /dev/random with diceware .
15:52:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, "firefox a script is being run for too long..."
15:52:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, also the clickable areas are too faint
15:52:54 <AnMaster> they are almost white on this monitor
15:54:04 <ehird> AnMaster: your browser is broken, then
15:54:12 <ehird> presumably it messes up opacity
15:54:25 <AnMaster> ehird, no this is not a state-of-the-art monitor
15:54:42 <ehird> Nowhere near white.
15:55:07 <AnMaster> ehird, on another monitor yes, I just checked, but not on this consumer TFT from 2003
15:55:52 <AnMaster> did that shrug mean you don't care about people that can't afford the most modern and high-end stuff?
15:56:01 <ehird> Don't be ridiculous.
15:56:10 <ehird> You're talking about a f*cking HTML page commenting brainfuck code.
15:56:13 <ehird> s/brainfuck/befunge/
15:56:39 <ehird> even if you can't see the background, the borders are easy to see.
15:57:11 <ehird> adjust contrast or something then
15:57:26 <AnMaster> ehird, doesn't help in either direction
15:57:39 <ehird> Are you sure you're not looking at a piece of paper?
16:00:04 <fizzie> I'll add configurable opacity-sliders and color-select-o-trons later. :p
16:04:38 <ehird> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YxdlYFCp5Ic wow
16:04:40 <ehird> yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes wow.
16:04:48 <fizzie> Have to prepare some food now.
16:13:30 <ihope> Suddenly, I wonder how many "mean geometric figure, stupid geometric figure" webcomics there are.
16:13:54 <ihope> I know of three, if you consider a stick figure a geometric figure. (You don't.)
16:16:46 <fizzie> Yet another fungot babble-generation source experiment: 1200 transcriptions of Penny Arcade comics. (I'm not any huge fan, but since they were in a wiki...) The data-set is very very small, let's see how it works.
16:16:46 <fungot> fizzie: they just fnord the rest of my life.
16:17:10 <fizzie> fungot: Who's this "they"?
16:17:30 <fizzie> Oh, might be ignoring me.
16:17:34 <fungot> ehird: fnord fnord, fnord internet fraud division. i understand that we said you would have dsl last week, i fnord kara to hold me until i fell asleep.
16:17:44 <ehird> fungot: You're not being very unique.
16:17:44 <fungot> ehird: on a scale of one to ten. you fnord' birds or people? we should probably fnord fnord.
16:18:15 <fizzie> So little material most unknown words are fnords. I could actually remove that vocabulary filtering for this.
16:18:49 <fizzie> Well, maybe it's a bit boring since it just quotes stuff, there's not enough material to interestingly combine things.
16:19:28 <ehird> fizzie: Feed it the #esoteric logs, grepped for only fungot lines.
16:19:28 <fungot> ehird: dots: the dots can be thought of as fnord owned fnord.
16:28:18 <AnMaster> that would probably be a too small dataset I guess
16:28:50 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
16:39:55 <AnMaster> "The O_CLOEXEC flag is not specified in POSIX.1-2001, but is specified in POSIX.1-2001."
16:40:34 <AnMaster> as far as I can tell they meant "2008 draft" for the latter
16:41:56 * ehird writes a diceware program
16:43:33 <AnMaster> netcat6 got a bluetooth useflag now!? wtf
16:43:42 <ehird> [[I have an electronic dice throw generator. Should I use it?
16:43:42 <ehird> No! Unless you know how the electronics generate the randomness and can evaluate its strength, stick to old-fashioned real dice.]]
16:43:45 <AnMaster> well I don't have any bluetooth stuff on this computer *turns it off*
16:44:05 <ehird> AnMaster: /dev/random should be secure enough L:P
16:44:08 <AnMaster> but the dice shouldn't be weighted
16:44:09 <ehird> although apparently on os x it uses yarrow
16:44:24 <AnMaster> don't remember how secure that one is
16:44:29 <ehird> yarrow is pretty darn secure
16:44:36 <ehird> bruce schneier co-made it :P
16:44:42 <ehird> it is pseudorandom, however
16:44:49 <ehird> but it claims to be cryptographically secure
16:44:53 <ehird> and, well, bruce schneier is probably right.
16:45:36 <AnMaster> I'm too paranoid to trust even him
16:45:50 <ehird> AnMaster: how do you trust the dice makers
16:46:10 <ehird> how do you know your fingers don't have a computer chip in them
16:46:16 <ehird> logging every movement they make to the governmet
16:46:51 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know that?
16:47:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't. I said I trust *no one*
16:47:31 <ehird> AnMaster: then you should stop doing everything because you can't even begin to guess at any possible consequences
16:47:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes which is why you have to do a risk analysis
16:48:15 <AnMaster> there is no way I can know for certain
16:48:24 <AnMaster> though it may or may not be more or less likely
16:48:44 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd say for a risk analysis: Yarrow, designed by renowned cryptographer Bruce Schneier, and used by several things including every OS X system to generate the cryptographically secure /dev/random source...
16:48:51 <AnMaster> how can we even know that we aren't alone? Imagining whatever we see, hear and feel?
16:48:52 <ehird> I'd say that's pretty safe to trust.
16:49:04 <AnMaster> isn't there some philosophical name for that
16:49:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but it's bullshit.
16:49:24 <AnMaster> true. But is there actually any way to *prove*
16:49:32 <ehird> You can't "prove" anything.
16:49:34 <ehird> That has nothing to do with trust.
16:50:39 <oklocod> yeah there's no way to prove anything
16:50:48 <oklocod> and, most likely, nothing is true
16:51:39 * ehird gets ready to make a diceware password
16:51:49 <ihope> Suppose nothing is true. In this case, it is not true that nothing is true. This is a contradiction. Therefore, something is true.
16:52:22 <oklocod> ihope: and you think you can get me to believe there isn't an error in that proof?
16:52:26 <ehird> I think I will use the same method for remembering this password as I did my last one.
16:52:35 <ehird> Have a text to speech program read it out to me repeatedly for ages.
16:52:45 <ehird> Doing that, I memorized my current password within minutes.
16:52:53 <oklocod> ehird: how about making a memory peg and never forgetting it?
16:53:03 <oklocod> yeah guess that works just as well
16:53:04 <ehird> However: I _am_ going to store this in a 000-permissioned file, and also keep a piece of paper with it.
16:53:16 <ehird> Yes, someone can break into my house and get access to it, but, you know.
16:53:22 <ehird> It's something I really don't want to lose.
16:53:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Do you have any backups of your passwords anywhere?
16:53:35 <ihope> oklocod: yes, I think I can get you to believe there isn't an error in that proof.
16:53:41 <ehird> Think of the most important ones; how valuable are they? Could you risk losing them?
16:53:59 <oklocod> for one thing, i already know it's false, so you'll need some work to convince me
16:54:00 <ehird> it might be worth keeping a physical-paper printout of them somewhere secret.
16:54:06 <oklocod> you know, because everything is false
16:54:07 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean the master ones? Yes I got a safe
16:54:22 <AnMaster> revoke stuff for gpg keys and such
16:54:28 <ehird> I don't have a safe, but I don't expect my house to be broken in to any time until I can get one :P
16:54:34 <ihope> oklocod: if everything is false, you're lying to me and I should stop listening.
16:54:49 <oklocod> ihope: what's the use? you're lying to yourself anyway :)
16:55:06 <ihope> oklocod: only if you're right. :-)
16:55:19 * ehird grabs a silly toy dice.
16:55:51 <oklocod> what i'm saying is complete bullshit
16:56:43 <ihope> Glad that's settled, then.
16:56:56 <ehird> this is an awful lot of work for protecting a few forum accounts.
16:56:59 <ehird> Still, it's more convenient in the end.
16:57:01 <ehird> I just remember a few words.
16:58:11 * ehird gets plan: Put paper with passphrase in plain view and file with it in in plain view until completely memorized. Then, eliminate.
16:58:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
16:59:08 <ihope> My passwords are all generated by a simple algorithm.
16:59:17 <ihope> Hopefully, nobody knows what that algorithm is.
16:59:31 <ihope> I kind of give hints every once in a while. I should stop doing that.
17:01:02 -!- Ilari has quit ("Won't be back for a while...").
17:04:20 <ehird> okay. roll here goes.
17:04:52 <ihope> Does that mean I can say "ROLL 6"?
17:04:55 <AnMaster> fun POSIX.1-2008 was finished one month ago, I guess too early to start using it though ;P
17:05:08 <AnMaster> and don't seem very useful for what I'm doing currently
17:05:13 <ehird> A six word passphrase sems reasonable.
17:05:18 <ehird> 77.5 bits of entropy.
17:05:34 <ehird> AnMaster: I do not need the same password in 2050.
17:05:37 <ehird> I will likely change password regularly.
17:05:42 <ehird> (You can change your GPG key password, right?)
17:06:08 <ehird> [[# Five words are only breakable by an organization with a large budget. ]] <- I do not think the government wants to spend a few months pooling tons of computers together to break my password.
17:06:10 <ehird> Just a hunch, though.
17:06:18 <ehird> They'd also, of course, have to know I'd used diceware.
17:06:40 <AnMaster> ehird, oh they know now, *points to clog*
17:06:49 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm sure they trawl through logs of this channel daily.
17:06:54 <ehird> So yes, five words, maaaaaaybe six.
17:07:54 <ehird> AnMaster: [[Of course, if you are worried about an organization that can break a seven word passphrase in order to read your e-mail, there are a number of other issues you should be concerned with -- such as how well you pay the team of armed guards that are protecting your computer 24 hours a day.]]
17:08:25 <AnMaster> ehird, hah yes, but computers are getting faster every year
17:08:37 <AnMaster> so in a few years small organizations may be able to do it
17:08:45 <SimonRC> how good are botnets at tackling such things?
17:09:04 <ehird> AnMaster: If I change my password once every year or two that should not be a problem.
17:09:07 <ehird> As I can increase the size then.
17:09:23 <ehird> Five words should do nicely.
17:09:50 <ehird> I have 3 tiny toy dice things made of wood, going to cycle between them.
17:11:08 -!- LinuS has joined.
17:11:12 <AnMaster> ehird, you should check if they give even distribution too
17:11:37 <ehird> They're not weighted or anything.
17:11:43 <ehird> Probably not evenly distributed, but since I'm using 3 separate ones that should not matter.
17:12:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not saying they are weighted, but they could be slightly dented, or have uneven density or be just badly made
17:12:46 <ehird> Yes, but since I'm cycling between 3 that should not affect the overall outcome.
17:13:03 <AnMaster> unless they have a bias in total
17:13:42 <AnMaster> ehird, if you are paranoid enough to make a distributed dice thrower. you have to be paranoid enough for this
17:13:54 <ehird> I wasn't paranoid for that; it was just novelty.
17:14:12 <ehird> Still, _any_ five word passphrase is gonna be pretty much unbreakable for the purposes of my personal password.
17:14:36 <ehird> Grr. It'd help if I had a bigger surface than my computer desk >:P
17:14:49 <AnMaster> well my desk is big but that won't help...
17:15:01 <ehird> AnMaster please roll my dice for me ;P
17:15:17 <AnMaster> ok.... 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6
17:15:18 <ehird> AnMaster: The carpet probably wouldn't work too well for that
17:15:36 <ehird> actually i need 25 rolls :P
17:15:37 * SimonRC makes the obligatory Dilbert and Xkcd references
17:16:13 <ehird> STOP FALLING ON TO MY KEYBOARD
17:17:15 <ehird> Well, they did. Now they go for the floor.
17:17:22 <ehird> i only have 5 rolls XD
17:17:34 <AnMaster> 3643214155546564222446366462253162632346435125441234213666516265355442131635412233312211613454326236616444516663352612634122155211423522143451633264164361464
17:18:03 <AnMaster> but I won't know what subset you select that way
17:18:22 <ehird> the dice keep hitting the cable.
17:18:40 <ehird> no, the cable goes in to the monitor, imac remember :-P
17:18:54 <AnMaster> I didn't know what sort of mac you had
17:19:50 <ehird> I keep thinking "Huh, this is producing the same numbers all the time" until I realise that there's only 6 possibilities XD
17:20:24 <SimonRC> he should roll a d256 instead
17:20:34 <AnMaster> SimonRC, that wouldn't be possible
17:20:38 <ehird> AnMaster: should be
17:20:47 <AnMaster> ehird, each side would be too small
17:20:52 <ehird> AnMaster: yes but it should be possible
17:20:54 <AnMaster> it would effectively be a ball
17:22:19 <AnMaster> ah that gives timing information
17:22:32 <ehird> yeah, it lets you know that i suck at rolling dice
17:24:19 * SimonRC offers ehird a big cube of 1000d6
17:24:33 <SimonRC> I has seen suck things on sale
17:24:48 <SimonRC> (or was it a cuboid of 100d6?)
17:24:59 <ehird> yay one word to go
17:25:30 <ihope> That depends on whether it was 10x10x10 or 4x5x5.
17:31:31 <fizzie> There are d100s generally available.
17:31:34 <fizzie> They look like a golf ball.
17:32:02 <fizzie> I would assume you *could* make a d256, which would just be something like a tennis-ball-sized golf ball.
17:32:35 <ehird> Yay, password chosen
17:32:57 -!- Corun has joined.
17:32:58 <ehird> Now to memorize it.
17:33:01 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Zocchihedron2.jpg has a picture.
17:33:04 <ehird> I like it, though. It's pretty: hunter2
17:35:48 <ehird> Haha, april fools idea: A password-generating algorithm that has many steps but guarantees a completely secure, completely memorable password
17:35:53 <ehird> if you follow the steps, you get hunter2 every time
17:39:53 <ehird> Great. Password chosen. Now to change my gpg key to use it.
17:40:41 <SimonRC> why can't gpg and ssh keys be the same?
17:41:09 <SimonRC> I thought the math behind them was the same anyway.
17:42:49 <ehird> SimonRC: That's exactly what I wanted.
17:42:53 <ehird> It is the same system, yes.
17:43:00 <ehird> I'm just going to use the same passphrase for both.
17:43:54 <ehird> [[Changing one's pass phrase often is desirable -- it isn't if you don't
17:43:54 <ehird> change your key at the same time]]
17:43:57 <ehird> I'll make a new key then.
17:44:23 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:47:32 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on how you use it
17:47:39 <AnMaster> for login you wouldn't need to change key
17:47:43 <ehird> Well, it wasn't anywhere but here and rutian.
17:47:46 <ehird> But there, new key generated.
17:48:04 * ehird realises huge stupid flaw in his login system
17:48:08 <AnMaster> well my public ssh key(s) are in lots of places
17:48:10 <ehird> it lets anyone trusted by the gpg system on rutian log in as me
17:49:10 <AnMaster> hm it seems POSIX.1-2008 adds several previously GNU specific functions
17:49:29 <AnMaster> I mean in 2001 revision GNU was mostly ignored
17:49:46 <AnMaster> I guess Linux is more mainstream these days
17:51:57 <ehird> yay i've almost memorized my password without even trying ^_^
17:52:22 <oerjan> <AnMaster> Asztal, F#? Pronounced as F-blunt right?
17:52:54 <ehird> SimonRC: 77.5 bits of entropy, I believe.
17:52:58 <SimonRC> no, F# is pronounced "OCaML.NET"
17:53:05 <ehird> http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html
17:53:55 <ehird> also, OCaml is spelled OCaml
17:57:59 <oerjan> oklocod: based on psygnisfive's analysis
18:02:55 -!- Linus` has joined.
18:03:31 <oerjan> <psygnisfive> your last name is an anagram of either sole or sola
18:03:50 <oerjan> sent my guess in private :D
18:04:47 <lament> guess my phone number instead :P
18:04:57 <oerjan> sure, but there was one that sprung nearly immediately to mind
18:05:26 <oerjan> (maybe he's told it before though. or maybe it's completely wrong.)
18:06:15 <psygnisfive> slVV seems unlikly, as does lsVV and VVsl and VVls
18:06:27 <oerjan> i'm not saying in public but a finnish name list made at least the first name very likely
18:06:53 <oerjan> and my guess has google hits, including facebook
18:07:19 <psygnisfive> i just forget if its written with an a or an e
18:08:01 <oerjan> the name list only had the e version
18:08:41 <oerjan> ok the other also exists
18:09:01 <ehird> policy: New gpg key & new ssh key & new password for both every jan 1st
18:09:03 <ehird> that seems reasonable
18:09:15 <psygnisfive> sola or salo or osla or aslo or also or olsa or...
18:12:10 * SimonRC wonders what this net obsession with hiding one's name is for
18:13:03 <oklocod> oerjan: yeah, you got it right
18:13:26 <oklocod> i *have* told it here, it's not exactly a secret
18:13:43 <oerjan> ok that may have been in my memory somewhere then
18:14:00 <oerjan> yeah i would keep it secret too if psygnisfive was stalking me ;D
18:14:08 <ehird> Okay, so I need to write a FOAF file thingy, then I have to write the firefox thingy that logs me in to sites from the gpg-encrypted random-pass file then elliott.hird.name has to be bought.
18:14:11 <ehird> Then I shall be happy.
18:14:12 * SimonRC recalls that Oklo is where the 2000000000-year-old nuclear reactor is
18:14:44 <psygnisfive> you mean that natural reactor somewhere in ghana?
18:14:56 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reactor
18:15:02 <oklocod> "sl" is a bit unfinnishy too
18:15:32 <psygnisfive> SimonRC: I AM A LINGUIST. DO NOT TREAD IN PLACES YOU DO NOT BELONG.
18:15:39 <oklocod> SimonRC: not that many here are hiding their name; and i'm not either, in general
18:15:54 <oerjan> oklocod: when psygnisfive listed those, i though "Olsa" sounded a bit finnish but the only hits were someone babbling in turkish
18:15:56 <oklocod> it's just i happened to tell the anagram, and i knew psygnisfive would die to know it
18:16:00 <lament> i'm hiding my name. it's too hideous for human eyes
18:16:06 <psygnisfive> ok so if sl is unfinnishy that rules out all the slVV, VslV, and VVsl versions. not like the last one wasnt unpredictably bad
18:16:10 <oklocod> olsa sounds a bit like swedish maybe
18:16:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you awake?.
18:16:29 <oerjan> oklocod: sola would be norwegian
18:16:38 <oklocod> oerjan: sola is a finnish word
18:17:02 <oklocod> it means like a... very small canyon, fizzie or someone can translate, i don't feel like googling
18:17:27 <psygnisfive> ok so its not slVV, VslV, and VVsl, nor VVls, VlsV, nor lsVV, so those rule out all but
18:17:32 <oklocod> so psygnisfive: why can't the last name have an i?
18:18:29 <oklocod> you *know* my first name okay
18:18:44 <oklocod> that might explain why you haven't considered vola or something :P
18:18:54 <oklocod> yeah maybe you should stalk her instead?
18:19:13 <oklocod> hmm i wonder if that yogurt is still good for eating
18:19:38 <ehird> ->' is this a pictorial representation of your penis?
18:19:38 <psygnisfive> but your cock is the size of an apostrophe?
18:20:08 <psygnisfive> ehird: you're not as fast as me, when it comes to fawning over penises.
18:20:12 <lament> '. <- my cock, next to the Earth
18:21:00 <psygnisfive> lament: i find it hard to believe that you could've found enough food to grow a penis that large, especially given that human tissue is about 75% water, and that would have more water than is on and in the earth
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18:21:35 <lament> it was always like that
18:21:39 <SimonRC> watch is psygnisfive applies logic inappropriately
18:22:00 <SimonRC> poor lament; for he can have no sex life
18:22:04 <oklocod> 19:19:01 ehird: ->' is this a pictorial representation of your penis?
18:22:04 <oklocod> 19:19:02 psygnisfive: but your cock is the size of an apostrophe?
18:22:05 <oerjan> psygnisfive: hey hey don't be so negative. here we have the solution to all the world's water shortages
18:22:05 <psygnisfive> SimonRC, your sense of humor sucks. you should watch big bang theory.
18:22:24 <ehird> actually SimonRC's sense of humour is better than psygnisfive's
18:22:29 <lament> my sex life is limited, i only know one woman who's big enough
18:23:29 <oerjan> psygnisfive: indeed that _would_ be a big bang
18:23:40 <psygnisfive> no theres this tv show called big bang theory
18:24:03 <psygnisfive> vaguely similar to The IT Crowd, but not british
18:24:25 <psygnisfive> half the jokes should make absolutely no sense if you dont have a basic knowledge of the argument of grand unified theories
18:24:45 <ihope> My mom loves that show.
18:24:46 <oerjan> as long as you don't have to understand the math
18:24:47 <oklocod> oerjan: psygnisfive: indeed that _would_ be a big bang <<< oerjan: so, usually you part, now you're making sex jokes? i'm assuming you're oerjan's nephew or something
18:24:53 <lament> we should uh join our forces?
18:24:53 * ihope waits for someone to say "YOUR MOM loves that show"
18:25:11 <psygnisfive> one of the characters, sheldon, has this tendency to not realize jokes are jokes
18:25:17 <oerjan> i don't have siblings, so no nephews
18:25:20 <psygnisfive> and instead tries to explain the illogical facets of the set up
18:25:36 <oklocod> oerjan: prolly not, because you're about 9 years old
18:25:52 <oerjan> oklocod: well my dad thinks so sometimes
18:26:08 <psygnisfive> oklopol: he could be like that one british woman whos family had a generation size of like 13 years
18:26:57 <oerjan> just because i'm 38, doesn't mean i've actually grown up
18:28:21 <oerjan> oklocod: i don't mind sex jokes as long as they're not too graphic
18:28:45 <ehird> oerjan: quick make a pun on that
18:29:04 <oklocod> oerjan: yeah i see, i guess it's a generation thing, i don't see anything as "too graphic" really
18:29:05 <SimonRC> well, sometimes it is fun to apply logic in silly places...
18:30:01 <psygnisfive> oerjan: three guys walk into a sex club, the size queen goes to the fisting area and gets his ass stretched real wide, the ...
18:30:44 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: then makes a website about it?
18:30:50 <psygnisfive> i was just gonna end it with the masochist enjoying pain so much he denies himself the pleasure of receiving it
18:31:41 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: sorry I meant: "... then he makes a website about it"?
18:32:02 <SimonRC> i.e. the notorious goatse.cx
18:32:32 <SimonRC> I was trying to think how to continue the story, that is all :-)
18:33:45 <oerjan> so what is the rule that says, if it exists then there are jokes about it?
18:34:23 <SimonRC> related to rule 34 I suppose
18:34:57 <oerjan> i know that one already
18:37:14 <psygnisfive> and capitalization is wholly unnecessary; i agree with bauhaus on this matter
18:37:21 <oerjan> SimonRC: from the "youre" my guess is psygnisfive simply doesn't use the apostrophe key
18:37:36 <ehird> psygnisfive: yes, but english is ugly in just about every aspect
18:37:41 <SimonRC> oerjan: yes. I was gently ridiculing her.
18:37:43 <ehird> you might as well invent your own language and talk to us in it here
18:37:48 <psygnisfive> oerjan: actually youll notice that i havent used it since he said APOSTROPHE a second time :)
18:38:03 <psygnisfive> ehird: english is quite pretty, dont be a horrible person. :|
18:38:05 <ehird> psygnisfive: if you want to talk to us in english, talk to us in _english_
18:38:36 <ehird> and then we'd all ignore you, probably.
18:39:22 <oerjan> 18:22 psygnisfive> oklopol: you're closer to him then.
18:39:28 <oerjan> that's the last i could find
18:39:36 <oerjan> long before the second APOSTROPHE
18:40:15 <psygnisfive> i instinctually did go to type the apostrophe in you're and such but intentionally suppressed it
18:40:39 <ehird> yeah, you show him.
18:41:05 <SimonRC> psygnisfive is taking that more seriously than I expected
18:41:30 <psygnisfive> simonrc: thats what you get for trying to be humorous :D
18:41:42 <oerjan> SimonRC: psygnisfive takes _everything_ more seriously than one expects :D
18:41:50 <psygnisfive> wiiyzyweenywaajö' #wïïjod zyweenywaybaï̇ #mwejaysïwaẏh
18:42:22 <oerjan> that's some long vowels
18:42:35 <ehird> psygnisfive: does that actually mean anything
18:42:57 <psygnisfive> its a transliteration of a sentence im basing the sound of the language on.
18:43:15 <psygnisfive> a quote from farscape. it means something like "we just wanted to get a closer look, but the wormhole pulled us in"
18:43:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:43:48 <oklocod> 19:38… ehird: and then we'd all ignore you, probably.
18:44:11 <oklocod> the only reason i haven't learned lojban yet is no one i know knows it
18:44:34 <ehird> psygnisfive: make a reocrding
18:44:34 <psygnisfive> initially people think it sounds like backwards english but it actually doesnt
18:44:50 <oklocod> a few have said they will, but people simply don't have the stamina for something that useless
18:45:45 <oklocod> oh, i think the sound is one of its best parts
18:45:47 <psygnisfive> i hate the way spanish sounds and i can still explain an ipod warranty and return policy
18:45:49 <ehird> um lojban sounds awesome
18:45:54 <ehird> spanish sounds awful
18:46:12 <ehird> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1710885982433758647 <-- stupid little cartoon thing that is only redeemed by AWESOME LOJBAN SOUND
18:46:21 <ehird> it makes anything good
18:46:31 <ehird> they should call lojban awesomeban.
18:46:52 <psygnisfive> ehird: http://www.wellnowwhat.net/Farscape_linguistics/Sebacean-[0-6].wav
18:47:01 <psygnisfive> where [0-6] is a proper range, not part of the file name
18:48:22 <ehird> psygnisfive: fix the links
18:48:24 <psygnisfive> it sounds nothing like their official descriptions of the way the language sounds
18:49:16 * SimonRC goes to listen to Dr Who on BBC 7.
18:49:35 <ehird> psygnisfive: how do you make that click "hck" sound >_<
18:50:26 <psygnisfive> i can tell you how to start, and then guide you through getting closer to the correct way of doing it
18:50:55 <psygnisfive> guess you wont be learning sebacean then, HUH
18:51:19 <oklocod> is it an existing consonant or one of your own?
18:53:18 <psygnisfive> ESPECIALLY for sexual purposes. i mean, honestly, who would fuck a retriever? weirdos.
18:53:22 <oklocod> this one is lying right next to me, farting, and silently judging me as i'm making funny consonants up.
18:53:34 <oklocod> well yeah, that's a good point
18:54:07 <oerjan> happiness is a warm puppy
18:55:15 <psygnisfive> if you're into abusing beastiality i can give you a delightfully cruel fantasy :o
18:55:31 <oklocod> you and your silly anecdotes
18:56:04 <psygnisfive> also: http://community.livejournal.com/ftmvanity/876303.html#cutid1 <3
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18:57:43 <oklocod> is the point that he's cute, was did that have to do with bestiality?
18:58:12 <oklocod> yeah the comments somewhat gave that away
18:59:05 <oklocod> lol, if i think he's a girl, he indeed does looks somewhat cute
19:00:16 <oklocod> and the lower part of the face
19:00:17 <psygnisfive> nah. ive seen lots of guys that look similar
19:04:16 <oklocod> "you know what's so wrong about gayness? if there's two guys, who has the vagina?" "yeah, you gotta have a vagina" "vaginas are great, wish i had one"
19:04:21 <oklocod> (another american dad quote)
19:05:05 <psygnisfive> primarily because a stereotype (not untrue) about straight guys is that they always wanna fuck a chick in the ass
19:05:20 <psygnisfive> so that comment sounds more like an intentional homophobic joke than anything else
19:05:41 <ehird> oh noes the joke is homophobic
19:05:54 <psygnisfive> its one thing if its monty python homophobic
19:06:13 <ehird> ah. so only famous comedians can be homophobia
19:06:29 <psygnisfive> just like only good comedians can be racist
19:06:39 <oklocod> the joke is the first guys say vaginas are great for banging, last guy joins in, and says (without stealing focus), that he's like to *have* a vagina
19:06:45 <oklocod> at least that's what i laughed at.
19:07:12 <psygnisfive> straight american guys want to be hot chicks.
19:07:23 <psygnisfive> its a fairly well established but rarely spoken about fact.
19:08:02 <oklocod> well anyway, who said that was even a joke
19:08:13 <oklocod> i don't watch ad for it's humor value
19:08:13 <psygnisfive> straight american men are so afraid of being perceived as homosexual that they actual want to BE women. they only like having cocks because cocks are used to fuck women.
19:09:29 <oklocod> and while what you say may be true (and afaik all things are true), i don't think that makes the joke bad.
19:09:45 <oklocod> i like all jokes that aren't based on a punchline or a pun
19:10:00 <oklocod> and i like some jokes based on misunderstandings
19:10:21 <psygnisfive> see, i didnt even see the misunderstanding
19:10:31 <psygnisfive> im not even sure if there was one. i suppose it depends on what followed
19:10:36 <oklocod> i don't consider that a misunderstanding
19:12:49 <oklocod> the joke is, liking vaginas is something that, in the pseudoworld where i live and where that joke works, is a manly thing; if you like a vagina, you're manly; once it goes over a certain point, you become the opposite of manly, because you suddenly want to be a woman
19:13:12 <oklocod> at least that's how i see it, what do i know.
19:13:23 <psygnisfive> that pseudoworld is called american straight mandom.
19:13:34 <psygnisfive> hence why i didnt see the joke, what with the show being about precisely that
19:13:41 <oklocod> yeah, i believe that's what ad is all about.
19:14:25 <oerjan> "I wish I was a girly, just like my dear Pa-Pa!"
19:14:46 <psygnisfive> but the irony is that straight men in america often want to fuck chicks in the ass. sometimes more than in the pussy.
19:14:59 <oklocod> psygnisfive: that's irrelevant
19:15:25 <oklocod> if there's a world in which the joke is funny, and a world i can picture in my head, the joke is inherently funny.
19:15:35 <psygnisfive> if straight men prefer ass, then its very relevant indeed!
19:15:35 <ehird> psygnisfive: Do you think you could talk about something other than sex just once in #esoteric?
19:16:05 <oklocod> this was partly my fault too
19:16:07 <psygnisfive> ehird: i'd love to, but noone seems to be interested in actually esoteric programming concepts. all i see is rehashing old ideas.
19:16:25 <oklocod> psygnisfive: so have i talked to you about noprob?
19:16:31 <ehird> psygnisfive: Well, how would you know? You never try.
19:17:06 <psygnisfive> ehird: i do! but then i stopped because you were all like "blah blah blah talking about brainfuck is edgy and esoteric grr"
19:17:11 -!- Judofyr has quit.
19:17:22 <ehird> psygnisfive: no we weren't, but besides, what is wrong with brainfuck?
19:17:42 <oerjan> It's _so_ last century :D
19:17:42 <oklocod> the rehashing of old ideas is that most genuinely mathematically interesting stuff is rare in all fields where amateurs make the content
19:17:43 <psygnisfive> nothings wrong with brainfuck, its just like talking about latin and then claiming you're esoteric
19:17:54 <ehird> except latin used to be used seriously.
19:18:11 <oklocod> *because somewhere in there
19:18:15 <ehird> oerjan: last century? :-D
19:18:17 <oerjan> Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur
19:18:19 <ehird> ye olde brainfucke
19:18:46 <psygnisfive> contrary to popular believe, "ye" in such constructions is not said with a y sound
19:19:13 <ehird> "ye olde brainfucke" is not exactly circa-1900 english.
19:19:34 <oklocod> psygnisfive: do you know 3-sat
19:20:14 <oklocod> well it's just about having your boolean expressions in CNF in clauses of size 3
19:20:47 <oklocod> for instance (A | b | C) ^ (B | c | d)
19:20:57 <oklocod> but you could have more of those toplevel (* | * | *)'s
19:21:10 <oklocod> A-Z are just boolean variables
19:21:14 <psygnisfive> oklopol, i want to formulate a lambda-like model of functions.
19:21:17 <oklocod> a-z are just their negations
19:21:36 <fungot> Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
19:21:41 <ehird> oklocod: he's ignoring your idea
19:21:43 <ehird> and talking about his own.
19:22:14 <oerjan> is something wrong with fungot?
19:22:14 <fungot> oerjan: i've only worn this shirt for three years, man! you have a whip? why do you know what? those were all from me.
19:22:27 <oklocod> did you mean "a lambda-like model of functions thats not about lambdas"?
19:22:36 <oklocod> why would my 3-sat language be about lambdas
19:22:37 <fungot> Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
19:22:43 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2
19:23:14 <oklocod> that was a bit confusing, sorry
19:23:18 <fungot> ~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:987654321 ...
19:23:21 <oklocod> i always forget people can't see what i think
19:23:44 <oerjan> fizzie: the ^bf command isn't working alone anymore
19:23:52 <oklocod> psygnisfive: clauses are of size 3
19:24:04 <oklocod> because that's the definition of 3-sat
19:24:25 <oklocod> well, 3-sat is an np-complete problem where you try to find the values for these vars so that the overall result is true
19:24:35 <oklocod> you can convert all boolean circuits to this form
19:24:54 <oklocod> it's just for tarpitty notation's sake that the actual language is in 3-sat form
19:25:01 <oklocod> so you don't have to use any whitespace
19:25:21 <oklocod> i augmented 3-sat with probabilities
19:25:51 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
19:26:00 <oklocod> you have these special variabels that are true with a 50% probability
19:26:15 <oklocod> you can use them to create any probability you like on a variable
19:26:23 <psygnisfive> well you could use lukasiewicz notation for all your functions and get rid of white space
19:26:25 <oklocod> (this is the only way to represent numbers)
19:26:31 <ehird> psygnisfive: there aren't any functions.
19:26:46 <ehird> psygnisfive: um, I think perhaps you're missing out on all the good esolang ideas because you don't understand any of them
19:26:55 <oklocod> there are problotures for expressing infinite expressions tail-recursively
19:27:10 <psygnisfive> lukasiewicz notation is harder to comprehend, ehird.
19:27:26 <oklocod> psygnisfive: i doubt lukasiewicz notation can beat just *skipping all marking for functions altogether*
19:27:52 <oklocod> if it can, then okay, lukasiewicz beat me.
19:27:59 <oklocod> psygnisfive: the |'a and ^'s
19:28:07 <oklocod> you just said those are the functions
19:28:10 <oklocod> and i said there are no functions
19:28:16 <oklocod> of course i mean what you meant
19:28:17 <psygnisfive> yes, i didnt know what you meant by markings.
19:28:30 <psygnisfive> it doesnt skip those but it DOES skip the parens. :)
19:28:39 <oklocod> err yeah i don't need those either
19:29:10 <fizzie> Oh? I must've screwed it up when doing the ^ul command.
19:29:21 <fungot> Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
19:29:36 <oklocod> psygnisfive: that'd be abcdef in my notation
19:29:41 <oklocod> i was just explaining what 3-sat is
19:29:46 <oklocod> i haven't talked about my notation
19:29:46 <oerjan> fizzie: also i'm not sure whether that ^ul is the builtin or the bf version
19:29:56 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>]
19:30:00 <psygnisfive> adjacency is both disjunction and conjunction?
19:30:02 <fizzie> That's the builtin, actually.
19:30:07 <oerjan> ehird: that proves nothing
19:30:11 <fizzie> It just shows the old bf version.
19:30:14 <oklocod> every third is a disjunction to be exact
19:30:28 <fizzie> ^ul (fooo bar baz quux):*:*S
19:30:28 <fungot> fooo bar baz quuxfooo bar baz quuxfooo bar baz quuxfooo bar baz quux
19:30:31 <oklocod> conj conj disj conj conj dis
19:30:34 <fizzie> You can tell from the speed.
19:30:58 <fizzie> But the 'bf' command won't work because the 'ul' command is in the way. Heh.
19:31:18 <psygnisfive> but then it CANT be abcdef in your notation
19:31:24 <oklocod> but i don't see why you'd care for the syntax, *that* the esolang communite definitely has enough creative ideas for
19:31:50 <oklocod> psygnisfive: yeah also you have to put the parens there
19:32:23 <psygnisfive> the point is that the former is not the same as the latter
19:32:37 <psygnisfive> and if every third adjacency is disjunction
19:32:40 <fungot> test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test test t
19:32:51 <oklocod> psygnisfive: that's just because i'm confusing conjunction and disjunction
19:33:07 <psygnisfive> and disunction has higher scope than conjunction i take it
19:33:10 <oklocod> i pair things up in my head, sometimes i happen to pair two very related things
19:33:46 <fizzie> Hmm, output length limits are still missing from the built-in ul interp.
19:33:50 <psygnisfive> everything is by threes, alternatingly up the hierarchy
19:34:01 <psygnisfive> so that all disjunctions are in conjunctions, and vice versa, if they're in anything at all
19:34:36 <oklocod> that's just 3-sat, and a trivial way to express it concisely
19:34:54 <oklocod> that's not the interesting part :P
19:35:15 <psygnisfive> lukasiewicz notation is sort of like combinatory notation but it has no parens at all since it doesnt let you combine operators
19:35:29 <psygnisfive> oklopol, im a syntactician, i like novel syntax.
19:35:53 <oklocod> isn't the whole esolang wiki full of syntax ideas?
19:36:07 <oklocod> i thought the issue is most are based on the same few concepts
19:36:27 <psygnisfive> C = implication, A = or, K = and, E = biconditional, N = negation
19:37:00 <psygnisfive> ok so lukes notation is, everything is binary except N
19:37:19 <psygnisfive> but it ends up being completely incomprehensible
19:38:52 <psygnisfive> where adjaceny is and, and where and has higher precedence than or
19:39:59 <oklocod> (i've invented it once too)
19:40:37 <oklocod> (it was for this language, long before i knew about esolangs or polish notation, a language for this router game i was planning, basically you'd program the protocols for sending packets around a large network)
19:40:37 <psygnisfive> i like it. its nice and algebraically usable, but requires that you sit down and think about it
19:40:56 <psygnisfive> ok, youll need to tell me more about 3sat later. im off to shower then get food. <3
19:41:04 <oklocod> 3-sat is a trivial concept :P
19:41:23 <oklocod> has nothing to do with me, just inspired me
19:41:29 <psygnisfive> and instead require everything be in sheffer stroke
19:41:40 <oklocod> psygnisfive: ^ and | have nothing to do with noprob
19:41:58 <psygnisfive> sheffer-stroke-only would make it ridiculously verbose
19:42:02 <oklocod> i don't modify it, i've extended it
19:42:08 <oklocod> i guess that's modification
19:42:13 <oklocod> but the dog is farting again
19:44:18 <oklocod> i'm thinking of adding a second construct to noprob :<
19:44:34 <oklocod> branch-less-than, basically
19:45:42 <oklocod> because after the "reversible multiplication" idea died of stupidity, i haven't had a way to actually do any visible computation in a pure way
19:46:09 <oklocod> i will basically either have to add that, or a branch-if-less-than-50%.....
19:47:16 <oklocod> anyway, this would allow for using the probabilities for something other than purely storing integers n as (1/2^n) probabilities
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19:48:08 <oklocod> well, no because, it follows trivially, that once you have a way to compare things, and do calculations with them, you have numbers
19:49:08 <oklocod> ...and that was the because
19:50:44 <oklocod> hmm.... the language doesn't really have an ordering, on any level in the parse tree, that is, on any sequence of expressions, you can always shuffle the code in any way you like
19:52:15 <oklocod> i think i'll read a bit, i'm just getting a coding spark, and i can't code because i have to read, and i go back to irc
19:57:04 <fizzie> Actually the current data-set, even though it's so tiny, works surprisingly well: http://zem.fi/~fis/botconv.txt
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19:58:46 <fungot> ehird: no! in fact, that is precisely what you may not say! and brian and i are going to fnord. what was hidden within? unstoppable fnord! fnord.
19:58:59 <ehird> oh i thought you meant
19:59:21 <fizzie> No, it's still the penny-arcade thing. I can try the fungot loop too, though.
19:59:21 <fungot> fizzie: why did that samurai fnord his own life for the life of the international playboy. mark each mommy with a flag or whatever they use over there.
20:00:26 <fungot> psygnisfive: to: fnord fnord. eleven year-olds can't go. doom 3 comes out tomorrow. you'll just plug it in! where you going, tough guy? don't think i want it! no, the full version would destroy you. trust me, buddy?
20:00:42 <ehird> fizzie: feed it rap lyrics
20:00:49 <psygnisfive> this is what #esoteric has done to me. its made me expect randomness from IRC
20:00:50 <ehird> yo niggas fnord fnord fnord
20:02:06 <fizzie> If you have a big pile of rap lyrics, sure. I had to crawl those Penny Arcade transcripts from pennyarcade.wikia.com, too; people are very bad in making interesting text data available in some simple way.
20:02:53 <ehird> fizzie: http://lyricwiki.org/Main_Page
20:02:59 -!- Linus` has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi.").
20:03:03 <ehird> http://lyricwiki.org/Category:Genre/Rap
20:03:15 <ehird> only 125 categorized
20:03:22 <ehird> http://lyricwiki.org/Category:Genre/Computer_Science_Gangsta_Rap
20:04:23 <fizzie> "System.print(), goddamn I'm fly. (Don't forget the semicolons too)"
20:04:38 <fizzie> I guess fungot might make a good rapper.
20:04:38 <fungot> fizzie: welcome to fnord, bitch. you just don't want to talk about sandwiches? i can't do this anymore. jesus, look at these brain numbers. they're off the fnord and hope prey falls into its mouth. exhibit a is a fnord.
20:05:01 <ehird> http://lyricwiki.org/Monzy:So_Much_Drama_In_The_PhD i love thius
20:05:03 <fizzie> Yes, he's got a suitably dirty mouth, too.
20:05:10 <SimonRC> # You are likely / to be eatenbyagrue / If this predicament / seems particularly cruel / ... #
20:06:41 * SimonRC can't recall that guy's name
20:06:44 <fizzie> Meh, that lyricwiki would be nicely crawlable (since all the interesting data seems to have <lyric> tags around it) if they'd just have a list of songs instead of listing artists and then making arbitrary links to songs.
20:06:50 <ehird> fizzie: they have an api.
20:09:32 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:09:57 <fizzie> Oh, that should be pretty easy; I just need to give it a list of artists and then I can fetch all those songs.
20:10:18 -!- Corun_ has joined.
20:13:28 <oklocod> 21:04… fizzie: I guess fungot might make a good rapper.
20:13:28 <oklocod> 21:04… fungot: fizzie: welcome to fnord, bitch.
20:13:29 <fungot> oklocod: christmas 2003. i'm up. i'm seeing some shit.
20:13:29 <fungot> oklocod: yeah, i've got something planned for next month that'll really frost your... oh, that's right he had two fnord and two fnord
20:16:18 <fizzie> I'll look at the lyrics thing later, not today; but it might still be a nice experience. Now if fungot could just compose some music too, to go with the lyrics...
20:16:18 <fungot> fizzie: okay. is it for you?
20:16:30 <fizzie> fungot: Oh, you can? No, it'd be for the whole channel!
20:16:30 <fungot> fizzie: gurgle... fnord! fnord... that's... that's not mine! fnord?
20:17:08 <oerjan> i've heard worse lyrics
20:21:40 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:22:47 -!- Corun__ has joined.
20:28:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
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20:36:53 <AnMaster> fungot, what language model are you on?
20:36:53 <fungot> AnMaster: so, it's your job to decide who gets what!
20:37:01 <fungot> AnMaster: pure hell, fnord by yourself and an army of robots whose behavior you control. is that downtown? i was hoping i could get your aim or something, we could...
20:37:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is the language model?
20:37:37 <fizzie> Penny Arcade comic strips.
20:37:50 <AnMaster> isn't it kind of strange iirc?
20:38:10 <AnMaster> hey didn't xkcd make a parody on it once?
20:38:23 <fizzie> Just about anyone has, I guess.
20:38:28 <fizzie> xkcd might've done it too.
20:38:59 <fizzie> Oh, yes, it was that which went a bit fanficcy.
20:39:34 <fizzie> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash_fiction
20:40:16 <fizzie> Anyway, Penny Arcade strip transcriptions were in pennyarcade.wikia.com, so I just crawled them and ran. Well, not literally.
20:40:52 <fizzie> fungot: How do you feel about this particular data set?
20:40:52 <fungot> fizzie: i know his very heart. the one thing his dark soul fnord for. but fnord it would damn us both. you will fnord to death.
20:41:16 <fizzie> 1200 comic strips is not very much material, so there's quite a lot of occurs-only-once words, therefore it's so fnordy.
20:42:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm wonder if uf is transcribed
20:42:41 <AnMaster> sadly that would be totally impossible even over a small subset
20:43:25 <fizzie> fungot: Do you feel any better now that you don't have the token filtering enabled?
20:43:25 <fungot> fizzie: alright... " gabe." oh. hmmm. it says here nihilistic is doing the coding and artwork. i'd make stuff up to.
20:43:57 <fizzie> It also quotes quite a lot verbatim, because of the small amount of material. Still, it is amusing every now and then.
20:44:07 <fizzie> fungot: Try saying something more original, please.
20:44:07 <fungot> fizzie: didn't you try the uninstaller? but daily radar said it sucked! i'm going to introduce myself, and then you'd be all " pow!" and he said, you've got to remember that he does whatever a spider can. he can spin a web and that web can be any size. criminals are also no problem, as he catches them just like flies.
20:44:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think this is worse than the EU one
20:44:27 <fizzie> A matter of taste, I think.
20:44:47 <fizzie> Did you check that conversation -- http://zem.fi/~fis/botconv.txt -- I had with it? Very coherent.
20:44:51 <AnMaster> if that was a verbatim quote it makes no sense
20:44:55 <Asztal> I tried pride and prejudice... it was quite odd
20:45:44 <Asztal> hmm, I have red dwarf 1 to 4 if you want it
20:46:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is this one too http://xkcd.com/50/
20:46:55 <fizzie> Yes, PA's so popular it's been referenced by quite a lot of other webcomics.
20:47:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't understand why it is popular
20:47:37 <fizzie> I don't see why not; and the topic material is a popular one.
20:47:41 <AnMaster> I mean xkcd, uf, irregular and darth and droids sure, possibly also ctrl-alt-del (don't like it personally)
20:47:42 <fizzie> There's quite a lot of them gamers around.
20:48:21 <AnMaster> I guess the ones I read show I'm no traditional gamer (uf, xkcd, irregular webcomic, darth and droids)
20:48:31 <fizzie> Actually quite many people would say the same about UF, and even though I still read it out of habit, I don't think I've been very amused by it in a long time.
20:48:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, I found today's one quite fun
20:50:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, so what ones do you read?
20:50:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: Uh, quite a pile. Around 40 or so.
20:50:47 <ehird> UF is really boring
20:50:49 <ehird> it's like 3 jokes.
20:50:55 <ehird> and half-baked storylines.
20:51:21 <ehird> I'm quite a fan of http://buttersafe.com/.
20:51:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I wouldn't say it is that bad
20:51:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: Also a very wide variety. I'm not going to start naming names; most of them would probably be too embarrassing to admit reading of.
20:52:22 <ehird> fizzie: My Little Pony: Comic edition.
20:52:47 <AnMaster> ehird, explosm or whatever that horrible one is called could also be in that collection that is "too embarrassing"
20:52:58 <ehird> Cyanide & Happiness is occasionally funny.
20:53:13 <ehird> The fans are generally really annoying though
20:53:21 <AnMaster> well I don't click links to it any longer because it is crap 99% of the time
20:54:07 <ehird> AnMaster: What's wrong with "offensive" humour?
20:54:28 <ehird> Admittedly, most of the time C&H's humour is merely bland and not actually funny.
20:54:49 <AnMaster> I find irregular webcomic to be very high quality usually. Plus the annotations can be quite educating.
20:55:22 <ehird> iwc goes over my head a lot :(
20:55:30 <ehird> perhaps i just don't read enough backstory
20:55:39 <AnMaster> ehird, never read the whole archive?
20:55:41 <fizzie> If I had to pick few, I rather liked Ozy and Millie (although that one's ending real soon, and it's so... "normal"); PhD Comics (since I might end up as a grad student later); unspeakable vault (of doom) (even though it's not very pretty, and not very fun if you haven't read Lovecraft at all)...
20:55:47 <fizzie> Oh, and Partially Clips, of course.
20:55:47 <ehird> AnMaster: That would take a while.
20:55:51 * AnMaster has for all the comics he read, including uf
20:56:22 <AnMaster> thought that was back when there was only like 5 years for uf, not like 10 years or whatever it is now.
20:57:16 <fizzie> I read through the UF archives in.. let's see, 2001? It was something like four years then.
20:57:48 <AnMaster> ehird, also I managed iwc archive in about 3 days in total, this summer
20:57:55 <fizzie> Partially Clips uses a single clip-art picture for all three frames, and still manages to be funny.
20:58:37 <fizzie> On the other hand, Dinosaur Comics uses the *same* image every day, and still is sometimes funny too.
20:58:52 <ehird> I love dinosaur comics
20:59:40 <ehird> Yes, I'm sure we've all seen the xkcd parodies.
21:00:07 * AnMaster don't find dinosaur comics funny really
21:00:26 <ehird> (How many years have I been pointing out the 3 basic mistakes you make repeatedly? :p)
21:01:19 <AnMaster> ehird, no I didn't claim it made sense
21:01:41 <oklocod> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
21:01:42 <ehird> also, xkcd isn't very funny recently.
21:02:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I like the last one quite
21:02:55 <ehird> I mean, really. It isn't.
21:03:08 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't explain humor
21:03:22 <ehird> You can if you're trying to explain why something is funny.
21:03:31 <ehird> Sure, it ruins it, but if it wasn't ever funny in the first place...
21:03:49 <AnMaster> http://xkcd.com/489/ <-- what about that one?
21:03:51 <Asztal> http://www.insaneabode.com/roboterotica/jokesexplained/manwalksintoabar.html <- or does it?
21:04:34 <AnMaster> Asztal, see http://www.mezzacotta.net/singles/jokes_explained_explained.php however for why that particular one may be an exception
21:05:00 <AnMaster> since it uses the same tactic on the jokes explained as jokes explained uses on jokes
21:05:12 <ehird> AnMaster: explanations have to be sufficiently formal to be funny
21:05:16 <ehird> yours fails that criteria
21:05:39 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't try to make one
21:06:03 <ehird> <AnMaster> since it uses the same tactic on the jokes explained as jokes explained uses on jokes
21:06:14 <ehird> If that wasn't intended to be a joke in the same vein then you merely have a bad grasp of humour
21:06:17 <AnMaster> ehird, that was an example of "how not to do"
21:06:31 <ehird> AnMaster: no, THAT line is an example of "covering your ass"
21:07:11 <AnMaster> ehird, but really I didn't plan to try to make an extra level joke
21:07:39 <AnMaster> I could do it, just would take a bit. And I would have had to had that as a goal
21:08:43 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
21:08:59 <AnMaster> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-564-10-24 <-- hehe btw
21:09:47 -!- jix has joined.
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21:21:27 <ehird> AnMaster: they just randomly generate those don't they.
21:22:33 <AnMaster> ehird, same every time you access a date
21:22:47 <AnMaster> I read it was some "fractal algorithm" somewhere
21:22:59 <ehird> hash(date), probably
21:23:22 <AnMaster> ehird, well also they seem to often reuse what the other person said
21:24:26 <AnMaster> so I guess some deterministic algorithm of some sort that uses hash(date) as seed. but not totally random, taking whatever has been said in the previous dialog box in consideration
21:24:57 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/ haha, the current is great
21:25:30 <ehird> AnMaster: but that's an awesome mission statement!
21:25:55 <AnMaster> "The webcomic that will revolutionise your web experience." "The webcomic that could use more publicity."
21:26:10 <AnMaster> ehird, so what one did you mean
21:26:18 <fizzie> I think e's referring to the "Citole: a kind of fiddle" mission statement.
21:26:22 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=2008-10-26
21:26:37 <AnMaster> well Citole? I got no clue what that is
21:26:54 <fizzie> There's a definition right in there.
21:27:04 <ehird> Used like "ribibe", as a jealous lover his mistress.
21:27:34 <AnMaster> ehird, showing again humor is subjective
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21:30:01 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/4Uiqwe81.html <-- that may interest you
21:34:00 <SimonRC> the comic for 22 Sept 654354701 BC is actually mildly amusing: http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=654354701&epoch=bc&month=09&day=22
21:34:32 <AnMaster> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1433-04-13
21:35:41 <AnMaster> SimonRC, it was from "hall of fame"
21:36:03 <AnMaster> all in http://www.mezzacotta.net/halloffame.php make sense or are funny, or at least a lot of ppl think so
21:36:11 <SimonRC> I wonder if they bias the randomiser to ones that haven't been rated much yet
21:36:25 <fizzie> And everything in there makes more sense than fungot. :p
21:36:25 <fungot> fizzie: why, blizzard? soulless dragon demands to knooooow! everything in the store that day, in that line, that i have gone totally batshit fucking loco.
21:36:28 <AnMaster> http://www.mezzacotta.net/bestbakes.php
21:37:05 <fizzie> I don't have time for the lyrics-testing right now.
21:37:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, irc or wikipedia are the best ones so far
21:37:53 <AnMaster> SimonRC, http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-5679392-11-17
21:38:41 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=1&epoch=ad&month=01&day=01
21:43:43 <fizzie> Well, it's not surprising that IRC works best for IRC; and personally I don't like the Wikipedia one much, although it is mildly amusing the way it keeps on talking about fair use policy and other Wikipedianisms.
21:46:14 <ehird> SimonRC: language model for fungot
21:46:14 <fungot> ehird: i can't let these guys know how much i...
21:46:22 <ehird> fizzie: feed in agora mailing list archives
21:46:37 <ehird> fizzie: it'll start using spivak pronouns and ending human titles with or instead of er
21:46:39 <fizzie> SimonRC: I used the raw wiki-markup from 1/256th of all Wikipedia talk pages, with no filtering whatsoever.
21:46:48 <ehird> and use Gratuitously Capitalialized Words
21:47:07 <oklocod> fizzie: have you considered simply taking a few random words from what the fungot-highlighter said, and making it search for something containing as many of those as possible?
21:47:08 <fungot> oklocod: i love kingdom hearts. please use it.
21:47:34 <oklocod> except if it's in befunge, then i guess that may be a bit slow
21:48:10 <fizzie> oklocod: Yes, that is sort of an issue. The "use the original input as the context at the beginning" would be easier, but even that needs conversion from text into tokens.
21:48:56 <fizzie> ehird: The archives are only available to mailing list members, I think.
21:49:14 <fizzie> Although there's those other sites; proposals and such.
21:50:13 <ehird> fizzie: I can give you them.
21:50:17 <ehird> (Being a member, of course.)
21:50:59 <fizzie> Okay, fungot's now running on a model built from the current_flr.txt ruleset.
21:51:00 <fungot> fizzie: the vote collector is the assessor. the default officeholder can become a party to the
21:51:39 <fizzie> Line-wrapping makes the "sensible places to stop text generation" part a bit wonky; should've rewrapped them a bit.
21:52:01 <fungot> ehird: first-class player as eir mentor ( and has not named a
21:52:23 <ehird> fizzie: Bayes (mine and comex's (the rulekeepor) automated player) does basically the same thing
21:52:31 <ehird> it has a markov chain of previous proposals and makes proposals based on them
21:52:34 <ehird> but we don't use it as people got annoyed
21:52:56 <comex> good luck making a proposal that actually makes sense
21:53:43 <fungot> comex: the parties to the contract. otherwise, the outcome is failed quorum, regardless of spectral proximity. each color of ribbon is a currency.
21:53:54 <fizzie> I rewrapped that text, so fungot should now not stop in the middle like that.
21:53:55 <fungot> fizzie: 16 january 2008 amended(49) by proposal 5122 ( zefram), 7 june 2008 amended(1) by proposal 5090 ( zefram), 1 march 2008
21:54:07 <SimonRC> does fungot listen to what you say to it?
21:54:08 <fizzie> There's that not-rule-text stuff, though.
21:54:08 <fungot> SimonRC: history: created by proposal 2783 ( chuck), jan. 20 2000 amended(2) by proposal 5408 ( root),
21:54:13 <fizzie> SimonRC: No, not at all.
21:54:18 <fungot> comex: the ambassador is a low-priority office, responsible for managing judicial activity. the cotc's report includes the greatest orderly id number, then its name
21:54:31 <SimonRC> it could otherwise sometimes respond relevantly
21:54:31 <ehird> fizzie: give it the slr
21:54:33 <comex> it would actually do something
21:54:38 <ehird> comex: it's verbatim.
21:54:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh this one is quite like a slightly sillier version of the EU-parliament one
21:54:58 <comex> ehird: what is fungot exactly?
21:54:58 <fungot> comex: in a timely fashion" and " as soon as possible as the conditions authorizing em to make the award as soon as possible after receiving a cantus cygneus, detailing eir grievances and expressing eir reproach for those who e feels have treated em so badly.
21:55:05 <ehird> comex: irc bot written in befunge
21:55:12 <ehird> fizzie: link him to the code?
21:55:29 <AnMaster> comex, it got a talk generator too
21:55:42 <fizzie> comex: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html if your browser is compatible with my messy javascript.
21:55:42 <fungot> fizzie: rule 2153/ 1 ( power=1) scams to fix scamsters. look on our works, ye marvy, but do
21:56:11 <AnMaster> and unlambda interpreter and a brainfuck one
21:57:59 <fizzie> ehird: Gave it the slr (rewrapped with 'fmt'), but I'm not sure it improved much.
21:58:04 <fizzie> fungot: Do you feel any different?
21:58:04 <fungot> fizzie: upon a win announcement. however, if point holdings are changed in this way, then 5 minutes later all points are destroyed and a number of points owned by a player is poorly qualified to be assigned as a judge does not inherently prevent an entity from continuing to be judge of a judicial case, and in the chief a capital letter a, gules.
21:58:34 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1993-09-28
21:59:15 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-9999999999999-10-18
22:01:32 <SimonRC> I discovered another coherent one: http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1964-04-02
22:03:03 <fizzie> Actually did yet another change: used rules_text.txt (because it's a lot longer), and stripped out all non-indented line; this should make fungot read only rule texts, more or less.
22:03:03 <fungot> fizzie: the player so proposed fills the office, then the ninny must submit to the notary.
22:03:14 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1993-10-06
22:03:16 <comex> is that a random ly generated comic
22:03:21 <SimonRC> I wonder if there is any influence of past votes over future comics
22:03:35 <ehird> why is rules_text.txt longer?
22:03:59 <fizzie> "This file contains all known texts of all known rules.
22:04:31 <fizzie> While I assume current_foo.txt is just rules-in-effect. Although don't ask me, your the one who does the Agora stuff.
22:04:46 <fizzie> Or one of them, anyway.
22:05:13 <fungot> comex: the scorekeepor notification must be via the public forum during the prescribed voting period on that proposal, election or referendum which e would not have passed or not met quorum or both.
22:05:25 <ehird> fizzie: anyway, I don't know - those are comex's personal files
22:05:32 <comex> ehird: no that was zefram's
22:05:40 <comex> I just have a copy of it
22:05:51 <comex> fungot: If your response to this message makes sense as a set of obligations to impose on me in Agora, I pledge to follow them.
22:05:51 <fungot> comex: ( a) as soon as possible after being made aware of this condition, randomly select a copy of the requested records within one week.
22:06:28 <comex> alright, I have to randomly select a copy of the requested records ASAP
22:06:36 <comex> ...the only question being, which records are requested?
22:06:46 <comex> ASAP = within one week
22:06:56 <fizzie> fungot: Can you clarify?
22:06:57 <fungot> fizzie: an off hold player becomes off hold when e posts a message stating that e insists. a player may, with support.
22:07:23 <comex> fungot: no, no, I want to know which records are being requested
22:07:23 <fungot> comex: there is a subclass of judicial case known as an equity case begins its pre-trial phase.
22:07:36 <comex> AH. you're asking for a list of equity casses.
22:07:45 <fizzie> Trying to get any sense out of that bot will probably lead to nowhere fast.
22:07:58 <SimonRC> fizzie: he has managed some already
22:07:58 * ehird tells a-d about comex's new obligations
22:08:33 <SimonRC> is that a special Agora source file, or just random legsl stuff?
22:08:48 <ehird> SimonRC: agora ruleset, historical and current
22:08:59 <ehird> (i.e. a backlog of lots of rules present and past)
22:09:08 <comex> except out of date, because I haven't updated it since i became rulekeepor
22:09:13 <comex> (since I don't have what e used to generate it)
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22:17:07 <ehird> http://xmlns.com/foaf/spec/#term_dnaChecksum
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23:06:34 <fizzie> More in the "experimental fungot language models" series: now trained with the complete script of the Playstation RPG "Final Fantasy 7". Probably makes zero sense if you haven't played the game.
23:06:35 <fungot> fizzie: i... i wonder how many of them endless stairways or somethin'? who's gonna go? is the black materia!!
23:06:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, I haven't played it indeed
23:07:15 <AnMaster> old zelda games I could do, but that isn't a lot of talk in those
23:07:37 <fungot> AnMaster: besides, i'm worried too. i'll go and invite your friends? he may be inside... or at least remember my father, at the choco bill and choco billy chocobo farm.
23:07:41 -!- Judofyr has quit.
23:07:53 <fungot> AnMaster: both of us go. enjoy.
23:08:05 <AnMaster> what the heck is a "choco bill"
23:08:20 <fizzie> That stuff is ~350 kilobytes; I took everything that appears in double quotes.
23:08:24 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:08:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, not a lot of data then
23:08:36 <fizzie> And Choco Bill is a guy who runs a Chocobo farm.
23:08:56 <fizzie> Not a lot in an absolute sense, but it's quite a lot of text anyway.
23:08:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, is it possible to play this game on an emulator under linux?
23:09:09 <fizzie> Well, yes, epsxe has a Linux port.
23:09:38 <fizzie> Although it's closed source; there was one open-source emulator too, which was less game-compatible, but it might still run FF7.
23:09:49 <fizzie> 3D; all the Playstation-era games have been that.
23:09:59 <fizzie> FF7 was the first 3D one.
23:10:01 <AnMaster> well not really my cup of tea then
23:10:22 <fizzie> I'd have done some of the 2D snes ones, but the newer games have far more text.
23:10:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, well what about secret of mana or whatever that game was called, for snes iirc
23:12:16 <fizzie> Well, dunno. I've played it, of course, but... well, FF7 was the first one I found a complete-looking script for by googling. Not that I tried others either.
23:12:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, what do you mean "of course"?
23:12:33 <fizzie> Planescape: Torment would have a lot of text, at least. :p
23:12:48 <AnMaster> I hardly played any such games apart from super mario and zelda
23:13:18 <AnMaster> really games are quite boring, with the exception of nethack and other rouge likes
23:13:26 <fizzie> As far as console RPGs are considered, that one's quite famous.
23:13:59 <AnMaster> (such in games above referring to "console games"
23:15:53 <fizzie> FF6 (the last SNES one, probably the largest too) seems to have a script <150K in length even with all the ascii decorations the gamefaqs version has.
23:16:01 * AnMaster checks games he played last two month: engima, kpat, kmines, simutrans, wesnoth, freeciv
23:16:06 <fizzie> Not a lot of material there.
23:16:10 <AnMaster> I don't count flightgear as a game, it is a simulator
23:16:20 <fizzie> I've played a bit of gplanarity, but not very much else.
23:16:49 <fizzie> It's sort of a port of http://www.planarity.net/
23:16:59 <fizzie> Gives you a graph, you need to move nodes so that the graph is planar.
23:17:23 <fizzie> It makes zero sense whatsoever, but... well, actually I can't even explain why it's fun. I'm not even sure whether it *is*.
23:17:48 <fizzie> There's some scoring involved (related to speed and such), but that's mostly coincidental.
23:17:57 <fizzie> It's not a very game-like game.
23:18:31 <AnMaster> well nethack I played of course too
23:18:44 <fizzie> I haven't touched nethack in months.
23:18:54 <fizzie> fungot: Do you play any games?
23:18:54 <fungot> fizzie: did sephiroth...
23:19:45 <fizzie> A character in FF7. One of the main antagonists. Not well known for any game-playing.
23:20:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, game music in this ff thing?
23:20:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think game music is utterly important. At least Zelda OOT level needed
23:21:02 <fizzie> And nope, the farthest I've done nethack is to get to the bottom of Gehennom a couple of times. Haven't really played it much; I did lurk in rec.games.roguelike.nethack some time, though.
23:21:32 <AnMaster> which is one major reason I love wesnoth, extremely good game music
23:21:41 <fizzie> And I personally like the music, yes. Most soundtracks by Nobuo Uematsu.
23:22:12 <AnMaster> My brains made no connection on that name
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23:22:37 <fizzie> Well, Final Fantasy is what he's mostly known for.
23:22:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, Finnish or Japanese is my guess
23:22:59 <fizzie> Finnish names rarely involve a 'b'.
23:25:55 <fizzie> The series is somewhat famous for the music, too, I think. Of course "famous" is a relative term here.
23:26:25 <fizzie> fungot: So I assume your comment was a "no", then?
23:26:26 <fungot> fizzie: it's 100 gil a night. would i know you were...
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23:41:39 <fizzie> I assume that was about the cost of spending a night in an inn.
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23:46:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you have any idea of any tool that could help figuring out why mail isn't *delivered* to a specific domain
23:46:29 <AnMaster> I don't even get any error back
23:48:18 <ehird> AnMaster: telnet to the server
23:48:19 <fizzie> There's not much you can do if you're not responsible for the mail server of the target domain. If you have a connection where you can talk to the SMTP port of any host, you could check the MX records, connect to the mail server with telnet, and try sending that mail.
23:48:20 <ehird> smtp is as simple as http
23:49:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm responsible for mail at target
23:49:18 <AnMaster> but I think the issue may be due to mx records and subdomains
23:49:40 <AnMaster> since delivering to foo@bar.org works but not foo@quux.bar.org
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23:57:41 <oerjan> <SimonRC> I wonder if they bias the randomiser to ones that haven't been rated much yet
23:58:20 <oerjan> actually _no_ bias would work rather better, given that the daily comics archive starts around the big bang or so
23:58:40 <oerjan> virtually no chance of collisions
23:58:56 <oerjan> but i think the actual randomizer is biased to closer dates
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00:00:25 <oerjan> however the "best bakes" page has three different listings, the last of which are definitely biased to things that are rated only a few times
00:01:32 <oerjan> the listings and voting system are essential to actually getting the better comics known
00:09:24 <oerjan> oh and also i don't think the Comic Irregulars have revealed anything much about how the mezzacotta comic generation works (barring that i haven't read the forum for today yet)
00:10:30 <oerjan> but there is plenty of speculation on the forum of course
00:16:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | sometimes i spend hours hunting some bug.
00:16:44 <oerjan> optbot is a hard working programmer
00:16:45 <optbot> oerjan: I consider it modern art.
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00:26:34 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1995-08-22 <- this actually happened when i was born
00:26:42 <ehird> i am the one on the right
00:31:22 * oerjan was confused there for a moment
00:31:36 <oerjan> i see your intelligence showed early
00:32:29 <ehird> I love my facial expression in the last comic
00:33:29 <oklocod> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1748-04-04 <<< oh my god, i wonder how long it's been since i laughed this hard at a comic
00:33:54 <ehird> oerjan: http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=2001&epoch=ad&month=09&day=11 The sorrows of 9/11 apparently break the algorithm.
00:34:26 <oerjan> i've checked 9/11 before i don't recall it being anything special
00:34:38 <oklocod> did you find it funny, or am i just too tired?
00:34:48 <ehird> oerjan: "This randomly generated comic is just not working today."
00:34:49 <ehird> oklocod: hilarious
00:34:52 <ehird> the facial expressions XD
00:34:52 <oklocod> the expression in the last square was simply priceless
00:35:07 <oklocod> cuz he looks so damn calm first
00:35:11 <oerjan> oklocod: i voted it 100% before you pasted it
00:35:29 <oklocod> okay i have high hopes for #2 too
00:35:47 <oklocod> well i didn't laugh, that just *made sense*.
00:36:19 <oklocod> these things are usually only funny in that they make very little sense
00:36:31 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-5679392-11-17
00:37:00 <oerjan> i think that is from the hall of fame
00:37:47 <oerjan> but i think quality has gone up, obviously because of more people visiting
00:38:04 <oerjan> (on the selected comics)
00:38:21 <ehird> the comics don't change
00:38:32 <oerjan> no but the selections do
00:38:47 <oerjan> the more people visit, the more comics will compete for the selected listings
00:39:10 <oerjan> and so they should become better
00:39:54 <oerjan> i don't think the underlying comics algorithms have changed either
00:40:20 <oerjan> but it's hard to be sure when they are not revealing anything
00:40:25 <ehird> oklocod: http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=612-07-27
00:40:33 <oklocod> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1729-04-03 xD
00:40:43 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=612-07-27
00:41:06 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=341-07-05
00:41:25 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1995-06-02
00:42:06 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1920-08-20
00:43:10 * oerjan guesses ehird has checked out the forum discussion on silent panels
00:43:22 <ehird> just finished reading the big thread
00:43:28 <oklocod> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-1286-10-03 <<< xD
00:43:37 <oklocod> okay i laugh at this more than xkcd.
00:44:04 <oklocod> well i guess it's partly because i'm tired and i opened a laugh-gate or something
00:44:48 <oklocod> but really i think it's the faces
00:44:57 <ehird> but yes this is better than xkcd
00:45:48 <oerjan> warning: don't include your vote in pasted links
00:46:34 <ehird> oerjan: they should really use POST.
00:46:51 <oerjan> ehird: there are some bugs like that
00:47:52 <oerjan> the TODO list is growing quickly, and DMM says it won't be handled speedily
00:48:10 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/singles/collapse_a_wavefunction.php
00:48:20 <oklocod> why is the unbaked cake eaten, and not the fully baked one?
00:48:46 <oerjan> oklocod: hm a conundrum
00:50:51 <oklocod> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1457-07-02 :D
00:51:12 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1995-08-22
00:51:17 <ehird> the lines are different
00:52:09 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=9999999&epoch=bc&month=01&day=01
00:53:29 <ehird> oklocod: my birthday comic, just a bit
00:53:32 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-600000-11-05
00:54:28 <oerjan> well it's cached after it has been visited once, maybe that changes something
00:54:42 <ehird> cause i refreshed after that
00:54:54 <oerjan> or maybe they *shiver* changed the algorithm
00:55:00 <ehird> oerjan: probably :(
00:55:56 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-1875-01-18
00:58:15 <oklocod> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-2137-11-25 <<< okay the cycle time isn't *that* long
00:58:33 <oklocod> well you prolly know what i mean.
01:00:25 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=1992&epoch=ad&month=03&day=18
01:00:56 <oerjan> you mean some of the lines repeat frequently
01:01:11 <ehird> ais523: http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1005-03-16
01:01:14 <oklocod> oerjan: something like that.
01:01:46 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive_new.php?date=888-01-06
01:01:53 <oerjan> there are obviously several corpuses being used
01:02:02 <oerjan> some may be bigger than others
01:02:27 <oklocod> what i don't get is all thet parentheses
01:02:34 <oklocod> why don't they remove those
01:02:34 <oerjan> CHESS IS TRADITIONAL is from the IWC comic
01:03:09 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=642-04-16
01:03:37 <oerjan> it was said by one of the Deaths when someone, i think Kyros got a chance to challenge him
01:03:43 <oklocod> hmm, that may be a lie, because i'm not sure i knew whether webcomic is written as one word...
01:03:55 <oklocod> guess i'm just surprised i didn't get it.
01:04:02 <ehird> http://syndicated.livejournal.com/mezzahalloffame/ an almost-daily webcomic version lynched from the halls of fame
01:04:52 <mbishop> that comic is as weird as jerkcity
01:05:28 <ehird> mbishop: i think that says more about jerkcity than mezzacotta
01:17:11 <lament> lguhlughulghulgulgulgulgulghuglghuh
01:19:10 <oerjan> HELP, LAMENT IS DROWNING
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01:33:55 <mbishop> a fan in the window and a chair that's not really a chair?
01:33:56 <lament> oh, if he has a vagina then it's all good
01:34:19 <psygnisfive> oh, its not his place. its his friends living room.
01:34:22 <oerjan> if he were rich he'd have fixed that vagina, obviously.
01:34:35 <psygnisfive> lament: so you dont care if its a guy, so long as theres a vagins?
01:35:11 <oerjan> lament is _so_ object-oriented
01:35:28 <lament> this is referential transparency we're talking about
01:35:44 <psygnisfive> interesting in the same way that my homosexuality is interesting even tho i'd fuck a guy who has a vagina.
01:36:22 <lament> i'm guessing he's into women though?
01:36:41 <lament> woman turned homosexual?
01:37:13 <psygnisfive> i know a transguy (that is, female-to-male)
01:37:38 <lament> or otherwise not a lifestyle choice
01:38:13 * oerjan recalls from somewhere about a guy who changed into a lesbian harley biker, or something like that
01:38:38 <oerjan> (probably biked before)
01:39:52 <mbishop> well they could be in the mind
01:39:56 <mbishop> but that's probably illegal
01:39:57 <oerjan> and all three are separable
01:40:21 <psygnisfive> but brain != mind. atleast not technically
01:40:28 <oerjan> psygnisfive: well wait until we develop suitable psi powers
01:40:40 <psygnisfive> but it still wouldnt put a cock inside a mind
01:41:08 <oerjan> impregnation through telekinesis
01:41:10 <psygnisfive> mind is not a physical thing, its an organizational structure and pattern
01:41:50 <oerjan> well that's one theory. science doesn't really know.
01:43:00 <psygnisfive> tht ultimately amount to "i cant imagine it, so its impossible!"
01:43:35 <oerjan> now really. the fact that _he_ doesn't know in no way implies that science does
01:44:05 <oerjan> since science is still incapable of physically reading thoughts directly from brain structure, it doesn't.
01:44:47 <psygnisfive> i dont think theres anything TO know, to be honest
01:45:14 <Dewi> oerjan: except that it can...
01:45:27 <Dewi> oerjan: not to any great degree of precision, but lots of thought can be accessed
01:45:44 <psygnisfive> so what the nature of brain/mind is doesnt matter THAT much since we know it must be necessarily turing-equivalent
01:46:02 <Dewi> oerjan: oh sorry, from *structure*
01:46:12 <psygnisfive> and the functionalist model looks very similar to the brains behavior, to me
01:46:13 <Dewi> oerjan: you're right
01:46:28 <Dewi> oerjan: but I'd argue that that's just a limit of our modelling power
01:46:57 <Dewi> oerjan: our linear computers take a long time to simulate that many neurons, and real brains take years-to-decades to develop
01:47:14 <psygnisfive> so ofcourse we cant read thoughts by looking at structure
01:47:44 <Dewi> psygnisfive: they come from structure plus stimulus though
01:47:54 <Dewi> psygnisfive: and granted, science isn't able to really model that
01:48:02 <psygnisfive> yes but the structure is mechanism + stored data
01:48:11 <Dewi> (because it's too much for any digital computer!)
01:49:05 <psygnisfive> a clear example of why structure is not thought: brain dead people have no structural differences, but they lack the information flow
01:49:30 <oerjan> structure was the wrong word
01:50:57 <psygnisfive> modern science couldn't do similar from looking at a microchip. atleast, not in a reasonable amount of time.
01:51:12 <psygnisfive> and the brain is much larger than a microchip and doesn't operate on the same principles of computation
01:54:52 <psygnisfive> i find it easier to imagine a brain-as-TM-simulator
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02:26:33 <GregorR> I've been thwarted by shoes again >_<
02:28:03 <oerjan> they're probably jealous of the hats
02:29:20 <oerjan> GregorR: the only solution is that you register choosemyshoes.com
02:30:13 <GregorR> I spend four hours today looking for shoes I can wear.
02:30:20 <GregorR> As it turns out, they don't sell leather-free shoes in Indiana.
02:30:44 <ihope> I suddenly have a feeling GregorR is vegan.
02:34:33 <GregorR> (More accurately, I'm allergic to chromium, which is used to tan most leather, and also process synthetic leather so I can't wear that either yee haw)
02:39:22 <GregorR> But then, I don't think I'd trade my effing weird allergy for the normal array of annoying allergies.
02:39:52 <GregorR> Having to pay $150 for shoes isn't as bad as sneezing a billion times a day for six months per year :P
02:41:56 <ihope> I wouldn't like to sneeze at 11.6 kHz either.
02:49:35 <ihope> Hmm, what would that sound like...
02:50:16 <ihope> Probably just an 11.6 kHz sine, since it would be periodic at 11.6 kHz and you wouldn't really be able to hear the upper harmonics.
03:20:10 <comex> so how exactly is the dialgoue generated
03:20:45 <oerjan> they have not revealed it
03:21:26 <oerjan> what you can say is that it is based on several sources, such as an eliza-like program and their own webcomics
03:22:02 <oerjan> at least some characters depend on what was said previously
03:23:12 <oerjan> see the forum for what has been discussed
03:24:35 <oerjan> s/their own webcomics/their other webcomics/
03:25:27 <oerjan> there are also some public-domain books in there, i think the bible for one
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05:10:35 <Sgeo> xkcd every day this week!
05:12:03 <GregorR> Anybody who considers themselves good at determining whether colors go together, please click wildly at http://home.codu.org/colormatch/
05:13:02 <oerjan> the first two were almost identical. i guess that means they do.
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05:13:35 <oerjan> black goes with anything, doesn't it >:D
05:13:54 <GregorR> I'm generating some input data to attempt to make a neural net with.
05:14:01 <GregorR> I doubt it'll work well, because I think it's very subjective.
05:14:07 <GregorR> But it's possible that there are some humanish themes.
05:14:08 <oerjan> although to be honest i didn't like the other (purplish) color much
05:23:44 <oerjan> did you just switch the layout or was it part of the original process?
05:24:02 <oerjan> (in any case it seemed to be easier with plaids)
05:25:07 <GregorR> I just switched it on somebody else's recommendation.
05:26:49 * oerjan thinks his eyes are starting to have some illusion effect, so he'll stop
05:35:44 <mbishop> http://www.heyokay.com/wp-content/images/computer programming.jpg
05:36:42 <lament> i want a computer like that
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07:40:39 <GregorR> There's no way that color preference is deterministic.
07:40:52 <GregorR> Clearly I have too little data.
07:43:01 <Asztal> how many votes did you get?
07:44:30 <GregorR> And cancel the last three lines, my previous result seems to have been a bug (although I'm not sure what bug >_> )
07:44:41 <oerjan> heck i'm not even sure _my_ preferences were deterministic
07:45:13 <GregorR> Especially when your name is Gregor.
07:45:18 <GregorR> (Hyper-obscure reference++)
07:47:20 * oerjan squashes a dung beetle
07:48:40 * Jiminy_Cricket hopes oerjan doesn't construe crickets to be dung beetles.
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08:14:26 <GregorR> Just hit 70% legitimately 8-D
08:14:37 <GregorR> I doubt you can do much better than 70%.
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10:31:01 <fizzie> 11:32:51 <fizzie> fungot: Plop, goes the BONUS BALL.
10:31:02 <fizzie> 11:32:51 <fungot> fizzie: whoooooooa!!
10:39:20 <ais523> fizzie: what database is fungot using at the moment?
10:39:21 <fungot> ais523: official records state sephiroth is traveling the world like everyone's been saying'...
10:39:45 <fizzie> The script for the Playstation RPG Final Fantasy VII.
10:41:35 <fizzie> Were you one of those logreading people? Tried out 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics, and Agora rules, yesterday. Both of those weren't too bad.
10:47:23 <ais523> I don't exactly logread
10:47:32 <ais523> but my bouncer records all the messages while I'm not here
10:47:35 <ais523> then replays them when I join
10:47:44 <fizzie> Oh, right, there was that trick.
10:47:45 <ais523> so it's like I've been here all the time, and I read scrollback rather than logreading
10:48:11 <fizzie> Well, logreading, scrollback-reading; same thing.
10:48:52 <fizzie> fungot: Quote an Agora rule, please?
10:48:52 <fungot> fizzie: any player can flip eir posture to any non-standing value by announcement. if e disqualifies the judge, to all players
10:49:07 <ais523> the first sentence is verbatim from the Agoran rules
10:49:10 <ais523> the second clearly isn't
10:49:53 <fizzie> Shortening the context gives more... "inspired" output. That FF7 thing had one word less context than this.
10:50:13 <fizzie> fungot: Why you have to always quote stuff verbatim? That's not fun at all!
10:50:13 <fungot> fizzie: described elsewhere, and provides a tally of the voters' valid ballots on the various options.
10:50:27 <fizzie> Yes, it sounded suspiciously sensible.
10:50:30 <ais523> oh dear, I seem to have memorised far too much of the Agoran ruleset...
10:50:34 <fungot> ais523: " impossible" is defined here to mean overwhelmingly psychotic behavior, a complete lack of interest in the game, each player's score is set to eir bvlop.
10:50:41 <ais523> ok, that's more interesting
10:51:03 <ais523> btw, setting score to bvlop is not a sensible operation at all, and wouldn't have been even when bvlop was defined
10:51:57 <fizzie> fungot: Can you generate more original stuff if you have a shorter context, like now?
10:51:57 <fungot> fizzie: the stuck switches on an immune player which made the announcement that a judge
10:52:25 <fizzie> It's just that the coherence level decreases rapidly if I shorten the context.
10:52:41 <fizzie> I don't know what a bvlop is.
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12:16:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Jeeze. . . If you're going tu use C syntax, at least be willing to use the power of pointers..
12:31:34 <ais523> fizzie: it isn't any more, but it used to be base voting limit on ordinary proposals
12:32:02 <ais523> which was 4 if you were a real person, and 0 otherwise, say if you were a computer program or consortium of people
12:32:17 <ais523> fungot: more Agoran inspiration? You should meet Bayes.
12:32:17 <fungot> ais523: what's happening? i think i... what!
12:32:35 <ais523> fungot: that sounded pretty unusal for you...
12:32:36 <fungot> ais523: oh, and once more to turn over a stone or two to see it? will you get involved...' blah, blah...
12:32:54 <ais523> fungot: has your data source changed again?
12:33:20 <fungot> ais523: like you wouldn't be standing here now.
12:33:20 <ais523> anyway, time to go for a while, I'll be back soon, fungot
12:33:20 <fungot> ais523: if i did go to that town across the river...... that's so rude...
12:35:09 <fizzie> Yes, that was fungot impersonating that game again. Maybe I should make it randomly pick from the available sources.
12:35:09 <fungot> fizzie: then it really you, cloud?
12:35:23 <fizzie> fungot: No, I'm not Cloud. You must be confused.
12:35:23 <fungot> fizzie: remember it! why now... no. i don't know what i'm made of! ......urk!
12:35:51 <fizzie> fungot: You're made of some Funge-98 code. Hope this helps.
12:35:51 <fungot> fizzie: nothing. and, where is everybody? if you want! who do they mean.... don't leave me. something's wrong.
12:36:09 <fizzie> fungot: Calm down, everything's all right.
12:36:09 <fungot> fizzie: i thought i would kick their butts.
13:15:26 <fungot> oklocod: wait a minute, cloud! what can he do for ya......... i know this's kinda outta the blue, but...... that name?
13:15:51 <oklocod> also i love this current one
13:16:23 <fizzie> It might be partially because there's also the shorter context thing, the game script was so short.
13:16:29 <fizzie> fungot: Have you been inhaling things again?
13:16:30 <fungot> fizzie: now, i can read sheet music for that! but if you're on a big splash. hold onto your drawers and don't get so caught up in these reports.
13:16:52 <fizzie> I didn't know bots can get high by reading sheet music.
13:16:57 <ais523> random pick from sources would be interesting
13:17:10 <ais523> hmm... what would happen if you supplied fungot with fungot data
13:17:10 <fungot> ais523: did you... jealous? hmm? you... did you say something, and mr. president... i've never seen your faces ' round here before. goin' after me?
13:17:13 <ais523> and used a really short chain?
13:17:20 <ais523> probably it hasn't generated enough to be worth chaining from
13:18:15 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol.
13:18:36 <ais523> hmm... I saw your oko Underload program in scrollback
13:18:43 <ais523> that inspires me to try it for myself, without looking at yours
13:19:09 <ais523> +ul (o)(~:S(ko)*( )S~:^):^
13:19:10 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
13:19:18 <ais523> wow, right first try, not bad
13:19:32 <fizzie> I need to add that output limitation thing to fungot.
13:19:32 <fungot> fizzie: a lot easier. and believe in cloud...... it is not necessary to use that sailor suit. he is!
13:19:44 <ais523> fizzie: don't you have the ...
13:19:44 <fizzie> ^ul (o)(~:S(ko)*( )S~:^):^
13:19:46 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:19:53 <ais523> ah, not in the Underload program
13:20:14 <ais523> thutubot never breaks output in the middle of an S command
13:20:20 <fizzie> Hey, that was pretty curious.
13:20:23 <fizzie> RAW >>> :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (o)(~:S(ko)*( )S~:^):^ <<<
13:20:27 <fizzie> *** glibc detected *** ./cfunge: double free or corruption (!prev): 0x080dbee0 ***
13:20:44 <ais523> so in other words, my Underload oko program made fungot crash cfunge?
13:20:49 <ais523> AnMaster needs to know about this
13:20:53 <oklopol> +ul (o)(~:S(ko)*( )S~:^):^
13:20:54 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
13:20:55 <ais523> I wonder how easy it is to reproduce?
13:21:13 <oklopol> okay that's exactly what you had
13:21:21 <ais523> ah, did you come up with it independently?
13:21:24 <oklopol> i was kinda hoping it would have at least some difference.
13:21:30 <ais523> great Underload programmers think alike, obviously
13:21:44 <oklopol> there are many steps you could do in different order
13:21:57 <fizzie> ais523: It seems to be very easy to reproduce, as it crashes whenever I input that program.
13:22:00 <ais523> the ( )S could go anywhere after the first S and before the first ^
13:22:20 -!- fungot has joined.
13:22:29 <fizzie> (It's not fixed, so don't bother testing.)
13:22:32 <ais523> hmm... I suppose it would be neater to do it like this:
13:22:49 <ais523> +ul (o )(~:S(ok)~*~:^):^
13:22:49 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
13:22:55 <ais523> is that shorter, I wonder?
13:23:14 <oklopol> lol, i'm probably making the exact same change as you
13:23:20 <ais523> you have a stray S in your program
13:23:22 <oklopol> keeping (o ) on stack and adding ok
13:23:23 <ais523> but otherwise it's the same
13:23:53 <oklopol> oh, well yeah i just copypasted and changed the beginning
13:24:01 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
13:24:11 <oklopol> that's probably as short as it gets
13:24:42 <ais523> a finite oko would be even shorter, I think
13:25:00 <ais523> +ul (o )(:S(ok)~*):*:*:*^
13:25:00 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko
13:25:03 <ais523> +ul (o )(:S(ok)~*):*:*:*;*^
13:25:07 <ais523> +ul (o )(:S(ok)~*):*:*:*:*^
13:25:07 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
13:25:08 <oklopol> +ul (o)S( o)(~(ko)*:S~:^):^
13:25:09 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
13:25:16 <oklopol> +ul (o)S( o)(~(ko)*:S~:^):^
13:25:17 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
13:25:27 <oklopol> heh, i'm getting pretty fluent at this too
13:25:30 <ais523> +ul (o )(:S(ok)~*):*::**:*^
13:25:30 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko
13:25:46 <ais523> Challenge: given a positive integer, find the shortest way to write it in Underload
13:27:10 <oklopol> and just the number of x's to write, or in base something?
13:27:20 <ais523> Underload constants are probably just as tricky, or more so, to work out than Brainfuck constants
13:27:24 <ais523> :* ::** :*:* ::*:** are the first 5, I suspect
13:27:30 <ais523> hmm... why didn't that work?
13:27:38 <ais523> well, not so much of an individual program
13:27:40 <ais523> but a general task, like [[e:Brainfuck constants]]
13:27:42 <ais523> but a general task, like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants
13:27:58 <fizzie> ^bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++>+++<<-]>+.>-.[[<]>[-<+<+<+>>>]<----<<[->>>+<<<]>[.>]<]
13:27:58 <fungot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko ...
13:28:01 <ais523> :* ::** :::*** ::::**** works for all integers
13:28:06 <ais523> but it could be shorter for most of them
13:28:16 <ais523> I'm wondering what the general rule is to find the shortest program to produce a given integer
13:28:25 <ais523> probably it's NP-hard or something, tbh
13:28:44 <ais523> well, 4 is :::***, but it's also :*:* which is shorter
13:29:23 <oklopol> is this let-your-nephew-irc-with-your-nick week, first oerjan then you, it's impossible to solve that :D
13:29:28 <ais523> likewise the shortest way to write 5 is ::*:**, and 6 is probably :*::**
13:29:34 <ais523> oklopol: no, it can clearly be brute-forced
13:29:50 <oklopol> when ais comes back, ask him about semidecidability
13:29:55 <ais523> because some of the programs you try might not terminate
13:30:00 <ais523> sorry, not thinking straight there
13:30:14 <ais523> probably there's general rule for programs made of : and *
13:30:23 <ais523> *there's a general rule
13:30:40 <oklopol> probably for any non tc subset
13:30:50 <ais523> hmm... I wonder what the first integer for which the shortest constant is mathematically undecidable is, probably it's pretty high
13:31:13 <oklopol> that can't be solved either, you can only solve a lower bound
13:31:16 <ais523> and any non-TC subset whose halting problem is solvable, clearly it could be brute-forced
13:31:25 <ais523> ah yes, undecidable undecidability
13:31:28 <ais523> I can still wonder, though
13:32:06 <oklopol> +ul (xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)S
13:32:07 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
13:32:24 <ais523> well, clearly that's beatable
13:32:33 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster needs to know about this <-- ?
13:32:35 <oklopol> but that wasn't even the number
13:32:46 <oklopol> i mainly wanted to see how long 79 is :P
13:33:00 <ais523> +ul ::::::*:**::*:**:******(x)~^S
13:33:10 <ais523> +ul (::::::*:**::*:**:******)(x)~^S
13:33:22 <ais523> ugh, must be a typo there somewhere...
13:33:26 <ais523> AnMaster: its' on fizzie's computer, not mine
13:33:49 <ais523> +ul (::::::*:**::*:**::******)(x)~^S
13:33:49 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
13:33:55 <fizzie> I can participate in going after it later. But I guess I could take a quick look under gdb right now.
13:34:15 <AnMaster> well I'm leaving for the rest of the day within maybe 10 minutes
13:34:27 <ais523> ah, slightly early bye then
13:34:57 <AnMaster> so 1) how to reproduce 2) any backtrace (with -g or -ggdb3 and hopefully -O0)
13:35:10 <ais523> +ul ((:*):*:*:*:*)(x)~^S
13:35:10 <thutubot> :*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*
13:35:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, need to go out and buy new clothes and such
13:35:16 <ais523> ugh, hit typo by mistake
13:35:21 <ais523> oklopol: was meant to be, I haven't counted though
13:36:00 <ais523> I think it's probably possible to get it shorter, though
13:36:19 <ais523> +ul (:*:*:*:*:*:*)(x)~^S
13:36:19 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
13:36:26 <ais523> is it written as 2*2*2*2*2*2
13:36:32 <ais523> I'm wondering if 2^6 would be shorter
13:36:44 <ais523> +ul (:*)(:*::**)^(x)~^S
13:36:45 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
13:37:12 <ais523> one char shorter, I think
13:37:30 <ais523> and obviously the savings go up as you go to larger powers of 2
13:37:38 <ais523> ah, and two chars shorter still:
13:37:44 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
13:38:18 <ais523> I wonder if 79 can be written shorter using that sort of trick?
13:39:31 <oklopol> +ul (::*::**:::***~::::::*******)(x)~^S [2, 3, 4]+7
13:39:31 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
13:39:34 <oklopol> +ul (::*::**:::***~::::::*******)(x)~^S
13:39:35 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
13:40:08 <oklopol> this is what you get for letting the computer do the thinking
13:40:13 <ais523> I think thutubot just stops if it hits an unrecognised character, that makes sense given the way it's programmed
13:40:17 <oklopol> and not really thinking when asking it
13:40:52 <ais523> nothing wrong with that as long as you don't trust the answer to have answered the question you were trying to ask
13:40:59 <oklopol> +ul (::*(::**)(:*)^:*:*~::::::*******)(x)~^S
13:40:59 <thutubot> ::**::**::**::**::**::**::**::**xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
13:41:17 <oklopol> +ul (::*(::**)(:*)^^:*:*~::::::*******)(x)~^S
13:41:18 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
13:41:19 <fizzie> Well, it's the free_nogc() in STRN.c:122 that's hitting the glibc double-free thing. Will look at the details later.
13:41:36 <oklopol> mainly because i have to go ->
13:42:00 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:42:16 <fizzie> I think I said so, too.
13:42:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, well what is the link the the same version of the source
13:42:21 <AnMaster> so I can test it locally later
13:42:25 <ais523> hmm... where are the links for STRN?
13:42:32 <ais523> I mean, the definition
13:42:49 <fizzie> I'm currently testing whether it works on the stand-alone Underload interp, because that's a lot smaller piece of code.
13:42:53 <ais523> where's the link to those fingerprints?
13:43:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, still I don't think cfunge should crash
13:43:14 <AnMaster> so even if it is a bug in your program I want to debug this
13:43:34 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/bef$ echo '(o)(~:S(ko)*( )S~:^):^' | ~/inst/cfunge/cfunge/build/cfunge underload.b98 > /dev/null
13:43:38 <fizzie> *** glibc detected *** /home/fis/inst/cfunge/cfunge/build/cfunge: double free or corruptio
13:43:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, well got a link to that underload.b98 ?
13:43:58 <fizzie> And underload.b98 is at http://zem.fi/~fis/underload.b98
13:44:00 <AnMaster> ais523, 0x5354524e STRN http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html
13:44:13 <fizzie> Easier to run than fungot, no need to use netcat to pretend to be an IRC server or anything.
13:44:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't crash here, just runs for ages
13:44:58 <fizzie> It does run for quite a long time before crashing, here.
13:44:58 <AnMaster> how long does it take to crash?
13:46:01 <AnMaster> #5 0x000000000041ab94 in finger_STRN_get (ip=0x15d20c8) at /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/STRN/STRN.c:122
13:46:02 <ais523> maybe an infinite loop's filling up memory
13:46:05 <fizzie> It's might also be using quite a lot of memory, since it keeps growing that string.
13:46:06 <ais523> until it overwrites something else?
13:46:18 <AnMaster> I think valgrind is the right tool for this...
13:46:21 <ais523> the program is an infiniloop, after all
13:47:00 <ais523> is valgrind Boehm-GC compatible?
13:47:33 <fizzie> "invalid write of size 1" in stringbuffer_finish (stringbuffer.c:99) (from finger_STRN_get (STRN.c:115)) here, but you can run it on your own of course.
13:47:36 <AnMaster> ais523, no but that is optional
13:49:10 * AnMaster debugs, stringbuffer being external code he didn't write himself (was taken from another gpled project I'm a developer on)
13:49:13 -!- fungot has joined.
13:49:24 <fungot> ais523: it's the shinra for all of a sudden and where is everybody? that wasn't even a tough one. if we solve the puzzles, the fourth floor is this...... ha, ha
13:49:38 <fungot> fizzie: huh? there ain't no difference from before!!
13:49:53 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, you certainly seem to be as strange as you've always been.
13:49:53 <fungot> fizzie: wake up. bye, then that's it!! so let's get it.) is where i was...
13:51:21 <ais523> SMEM: "All commands reflect on error with the error code on the stack:" <--- arrgghh
13:51:40 <ais523> I don't think any other Funge commands push something when they reflect...
13:52:21 <AnMaster> seems I got delayed in leaving for other reasons
13:53:32 <AnMaster> was an off by one error in a call to make sure the buffer was large enough
13:56:37 <fizzie> ^raw QUIT :let's get you a brand-new cfunge to run on
13:56:38 -!- fungot has quit ("let's get you a brand-new cfunge to run on").
13:57:02 * ehird installs rc/funge and grabs the fungot code so he isn't contaminated
13:58:39 <fizzie> What can I say -- it certainly works better than RC/Funge.
14:03:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, didn't it crash on too long string?
14:03:07 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1488-06-05
14:04:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, also the bug would only have been triggered on a string that was exactly a multiple of 256 chars long. So that is why I didn't notice it before
14:04:40 <fizzie> Yes, RC/Funge has fixed 1000-byte arrays for about all STRN operations.
14:05:02 <Deewiant> Yes, RC/Funge is like that. :-P
14:05:27 <AnMaster> right, however this bug could have affected other fingerprints, I think the "read line" one in FILE for example.
14:06:18 <AnMaster> since it was in a generic "build string by appending at the end" "library".
14:06:37 -!- fungot has joined.
14:06:43 <fungot> ais523: like you more than sephiroth's shadow?
14:07:13 <fizzie> The program is still an infinite loop with very very long strings, so it might not work very well.
14:07:14 <ais523> AnMaster: I suspect that you're filling up the memory of fizzie's computer
14:07:23 <fizzie> Let's see what it's doing.
14:07:29 <fungot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokoko
14:07:39 <ais523> fizzie: did you just break it by hand?
14:07:49 <fizzie> ais523: No, it terminated by itself.
14:08:01 <fizzie> ais523: There would be a "... out of time" at the end, but that got cut off.
14:08:13 <ais523> +ul (o)(~:S(ko)*( )S~:^):^
14:08:14 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
14:08:18 <fizzie> It runs something like 10000 Underload instructions before time-outing.
14:08:29 <fizzie> Would be better to have a too-much-output thing too, though.
14:08:32 <ais523> probably that isn't enough for serious programs
14:08:37 <ais523> I wonder what Thutubot's limit is?
14:08:43 <fizzie> Serious programs? There are some?
14:08:43 <ais523> it's non-trivial to work out
14:08:52 <AnMaster> ais523, didn't you code thutubot?
14:08:55 <ais523> but that doesn't mean they couldn't be written in theory
14:09:06 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but the art of counting in Thutu is mostly based on black magic
14:09:28 <ais523> so it would probably take me an hour or so with a calculator to figure out exactly what its timeout was
14:09:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, where does that underload program store it's stack thing?
14:09:57 <ais523> I have written serious programs in a Thutu wimpmode, but the wimpmode does arithmetic
14:10:38 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1398-07-19
14:11:10 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's there in Funge-space, Y=9, negative X values. (Because STRN has that fixed delta, it's easier to have the stack growing that way.)
14:11:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, right. but why then is the funge stack so large according to valgrind at the end of it
14:12:03 <AnMaster> oh wait it reads it into stack every now and then
14:12:27 <fizzie> It shouldn't, but it might easily have some bugs that cause numbers to creep up in the Funge stack.
14:12:31 <fizzie> ^ul ((foobarbazquux)~:^):^
14:12:44 <fizzie> There's a reasonably small stack limit there, too.
14:13:08 <ais523> +ul ((foobarbazquux)~:^):^
14:13:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, well it is just that I found it pointless to shrink the funge stack in cfunge, it is a struct with a pointer to a malloced/realloced array, a size value and a top-of-actual-stack value
14:13:34 <ais523> ah, that took a while...
14:13:40 <ais523> I set the memory limit high deliberately
14:13:45 <AnMaster> so it doesn't shrink it ever, exceptions: t
14:13:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: Actually with the oko program, yes, it does the string concatenation in the Funge stack.
14:14:17 <AnMaster> t will not copy more than needed of the stack to the new ip
14:14:51 <fizzie> I think the implementation of Underload * reads both strings to Funge stack, then uses STRN A to concatenate them, and writes the result back.
14:15:14 <fizzie> Probably would be more efficient just to copy things around a bit in the Funge-space.
14:15:40 <fizzie> Or maybe not; at least the STRN 'G' pop-string loop is likely to be more efficient than a Funge-coded loop.
14:16:23 <AnMaster> considering how I do A... I calloc a new buffer large enough to hold both strings, then strncat them to that buffer. heh, was quite some time ago I wrote that, could rewrite it in a better way I guess
14:17:05 <AnMaster> (reallocing one string and appending to that would be better I bet
14:17:18 <fizzie> (foo)(bar) is stored in the stack as "bar\0foo\0", so * in any case needs to do quite a lot of copying to arrive at "foobar\0". Still, I guess at least TOYS has some funge-space copy operation.
14:24:25 <fizzie> Yes, * is indeed a simple 91g9G N91g1++9G A 91g1+:91p9P (with some other crud to notice stack underflow in there).
14:31:02 <ais523> fizzie: is that using TOYS?
14:31:12 <ais523> if so, you need the fingerprint-switch code too
14:31:28 <AnMaster> since it kind of makes sense in STRN
14:31:44 * AnMaster has rewritten A, now running fuzz tests on it to check that there are no errors
14:34:26 <fizzie> fungot: Do you PLAY with your TOYS?
14:34:26 <fungot> fizzie: you stupid little!? why? can't you just settled down and had a nice girlfriend.
14:34:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, which fingerprints do you use in fungot?
14:34:48 <fungot> AnMaster: all right, it's been a horrific battle. the receptionist. yeah well, good luck, cloud. will guarantee your livelihood once the reactor keeps drainin' up!
14:35:03 <AnMaster> STRN, SOCK, FILE, FING I remember
14:35:03 <ehird> is this still the penny arcade dataset?
14:35:15 <fizzie> ehird: Final Fantasy 7 script.
14:35:42 <fizzie> I keep FING, STRN, SOCK and SCKE loaded all the time; then I use FILE here and there, TOYS for ^reload (the space-clearing part) and SUBR for ^code.
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14:44:19 <ehird> fizzie: you have only ever said 3968 things in #esoteric
14:44:25 <ehird> until optbot was set up
14:44:26 <optbot> ehird: but i would need to try on paper
14:44:36 <ehird> and until optbot was set up, only 58 questions
14:50:56 <fizzie> My own logs list me 4040 comments made with the nick 'fizzie' on this channel before 2008-08-01. That's reasonably close; there's things like splits and such, and I might be counting something wrong too.
14:51:15 <fizzie> And 8802 lines in total, not counting this one.
14:51:25 <fizzie> Apparently I've been quite noisy lately.
14:51:52 <ais523> yes, fungot's been driving traffic
14:51:52 <fungot> ais523: he---y!! here i come, come, and my pay? don't gimme that!? who... who are you saying?
14:54:01 <ehird> I remember when optbot was the traffic-driver
14:54:01 <optbot> ehird: Cannot allocate memory
14:54:04 <ehird> and people conversed with HIM
14:54:19 <fizzie> Well, fungot's decidedly optbot-inspired.
14:54:19 <fungot> fizzie: you can't fool me, liar! maybe we shouldn't stay in here now! ...oops!
14:55:40 <fizzie> And apparently wants out of the channel. Go figure.
15:36:31 <GregorR> (For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, help me train a neural net to recognize whether colors go together by going to http://home.codu.org/colormatch/ )
15:37:21 <ais523> GregorR: what's the copyright status of your hat photos on choosemyhat.com?
15:37:59 <GregorR> ais523: Never thought about it ... ask permission before using, don't use for obscene purposes.
15:38:13 <ais523> well, I'm not planning to for the moment
15:38:32 <ais523> it was just that I was thinking about a programming project which might theoretically some time in the far future need photos of hats
15:38:36 <ais523> and it reminded me of you
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15:47:51 <GregorR> My neural nets have sex now, btw.
15:48:18 <GregorR> (And being able to say that is the #1 reason to add sexual reproduction to a genetic algorithm)
15:50:07 <GregorR> The sex system is already up to 68% :)
15:50:26 <oklopol> hmm, kinda intriguing, just read a chapter about minimax search for chess plus just a few really simple optimization rules i could easily have come up with myself; then "with alpha-beta search we get to about 10 ply, which results in an expert level of play"
15:50:35 <GregorR> (Due to skew in the input set 61% is free)
15:50:41 <ais523> 10 ply isn't an expert level of play
15:50:44 <oklopol> alpha-beta pruning is this trivial technique for pruning branches minimax will never consider
15:50:59 <ais523> I never got round to implementing it in my own chess program, though
15:51:08 <ais523> but it's pretty trivial
15:51:32 <ais523> it depends on the evaluation function
15:51:37 <ais523> if it's just evaluating material, rubbish
15:51:53 <ais523> you'll survive most tactics, but can easily end up cornered strategically
15:52:01 <oklopol> the evaluation function here is simply counting the amount of pieces, possibly after doing singular extensions
15:52:30 <ais523> I imagine it would fall to a strong aggressive attack, possibly one that throws away material
15:52:32 <oklopol> yeah, just evaluating material
15:52:42 <ais523> or possibly a positional opening trap
15:53:04 <oklopol> well with singular extensions it becomes at least a bit harder to trap it
15:53:14 <oklopol> don't know how hard, i'm not actually that good at chess.
15:54:03 <oklopol> but this is AIAMA, i hear it's considered quite a good book, so i believe what it says.
15:54:18 <ehird> AIAMA is good, yes
15:54:23 <fizzie> Minimax with alpha-beta is what *everyone* (something like 25 out of 30) did for the AI course project-work, which I had to grade.
15:54:26 <ehird> despite me having not read it
15:54:34 <ehird> i have had enough approvals from cool people
15:54:37 <fizzie> That was our course book, too.
15:54:51 <fizzie> Although I think the acronym used was just AIMA.
15:55:02 <ehird> yeah, nobody calls it aiama
15:55:10 <ehird> http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/
15:55:36 <ehird> cool ,peter norvig is directory of research at google
16:00:19 <fizzie> fungot: Don't you wish you had a real AI brain too? I can loan you that book if you want to write yourself one.
16:00:19 <fungot> fizzie: and with them bringing in the world...
16:16:40 <oklopol> it seems my back can't take sitting.
16:17:08 <mbishop> you're supposed to sit on your butt, not your back
16:20:18 <oklopol> hurts so much i don't even find that funny
16:20:31 <ais523> oklopol: probably you're on the wrong type of chair, then
16:20:43 <oklopol> holy fucking shit... i think i should lie down
16:20:55 <oklopol> perhaps i'll try my armchair.
16:20:58 <ais523> beds aren't really designed for sitting on
16:21:18 <ehird> i have awful posture
16:22:33 <oklopol> i've always had an awful posture, for instance people think i'm quite short, because i'm usually crouching some 10 centimeters down
16:23:10 <oklopol> have had to stand and sit a bit more ergonomically, as my back seems to be starting to... well, die.
16:23:31 <oklopol> and once again i forget a crucial verb
16:23:56 <oklopol> asdads, well at least the armchair helped a bit, thanks for making me realize i have a chair.
16:32:35 <ais523> +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*):*:*:*:*^
16:32:36 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
16:32:39 <ais523> +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*):*:*:*^
16:32:39 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko
16:32:45 <ais523> +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*):*:*:*^^
16:32:45 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko
16:32:53 <ais523> +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*):*:*:*^!^
16:32:53 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokoko okokokoko okokoko okoko oko o
16:32:59 <ais523> +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*):*:*:*^!!^
16:32:59 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokoko okokokoko okokoko okoko oko o
16:33:04 <ais523> ah, that's what I was aiming for
16:38:51 <ais523> mbishop: have you never seen towers of oko before?
16:38:56 <ais523> of course, it would be better with newlines
16:39:08 <ais523> +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*)::*:*:**^!!^
16:39:09 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokoko okokokoko okokoko okoko oko o
16:39:19 <ais523> +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*)::*:**:*^!!^
16:39:19 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokoko okokokoko okokoko okoko oko o
16:39:36 <ais523> +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*):*:*:*:*:*^!!^
16:39:38 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
16:39:39 <oklopol> i can almost read that, but what are the !'s all about?
16:39:43 <ais523> +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*)::*:*:*:**^!!^
16:39:43 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
16:39:47 <ais523> +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*):*:*:*:*^!!^
16:39:48 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
16:39:52 <ais523> +ul ()(o )(:S:a(S^)*~(ok)~*):*:*:*^!!^
16:39:52 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokoko okokokoko okokoko okoko oko o
16:40:01 <ais523> oklopol: the first one gets the working string off the stack
16:40:12 <ais523> and the second one gets rid of the repeat of the longest okokoko
16:40:14 <ais523> so it has one peaks not two
16:41:01 <ais523> anyway, the programming technique I used there is one that I don't think I've seen used in any other language
16:41:01 <oklopol> (i actually said an "ah" out loud too, except it was because of my back, and more like "AGHHHHHHH")
16:41:32 <oklopol> basically you store continuations in an explicit data structure
16:42:10 <ais523> yes, it's a bit like that
16:42:24 <oklopol> hmm, i'm seriously considering seeing a doctor. and that is not something i do lightly.
16:43:27 <oklopol> guess i could take those pills that reduce pain, too, but that feels like cheating
16:49:09 <fizzie> "continuations in an explicit data structure" sounds very much what I did in the Prolog-Scheme.
16:49:38 <ais523> incidentally, the Underload divmod-by-constant I wrote used a similar trick
16:49:43 <oklopol> okay i cannot code with this back.
16:49:45 <ais523> to divide by 10, it copied a program n times on the stack
16:49:56 <ais523> each of which popped the 9 elements below it and ran the 10th
17:08:11 <psygnisfive> im going to work on a context free grammar for chinese stroke order
17:11:16 <GregorR> I don't think I can do better than 71% :(
17:11:19 <GregorR> At least not with this data set.
17:11:58 <ehird> i will help you with neural net stuff
17:12:00 <ehird> beacuse i like neural nets
17:12:16 <GregorR> http://home.codu.org/colormatch/ Help me by generating data :P
17:12:52 <ehird> i did but i'll continue
17:12:54 <ehird> GregorR: plz add accesskeys
17:13:04 <ehird> a,s,d for the three buttons respectively
17:13:08 <ehird> GregorR: accesskey="a"
17:13:13 <ehird> on the button elements
17:13:34 <ehird> then alt-key or ctrl-key(on os x) activates it
17:13:38 <ehird> you can do it on input fields too
17:15:12 <ehird> how many trains should I do?
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17:16:37 <GregorR> However many you'd like until you get bored :P
17:17:09 <ais523> GregorR: you got some training from me too
17:17:52 <ehird> GregorR: I trained it a bit
17:17:55 <ehird> how does it do now?
17:18:10 <fizzie> I would click them buttons, but I have no clue what colors "match".
17:18:23 <ehird> fizzie: which look aesthetically pleasing together?
17:18:29 <ehird> which colours "go" together?
17:18:40 <fizzie> I know the meaning, I just can't really tell.
17:19:23 <ehird> fizzie: Just click yes if you like how it looks and no if you don't :P
17:19:41 <GregorR> fizzie: That's my problem, that's why I wrote this :P
17:19:48 <fizzie> That's just it, I'd end up doing "can't decide" on just about anything, with maybe a few "no"s in there.
17:19:49 <GregorR> fizzie: I want a computer to tell me if my tie goes with my shirt.
17:20:37 <ehird> fizzie: are you colourblind?
17:20:45 <ehird> If not, I think it's very easy to say "that's pretty" or "that's ugly".
17:20:49 <fizzie> ehird: No, just bad at making decisions.
17:20:50 <ehird> For something that simple
17:21:19 <ehird> GregorR: Does the script only ask for opinions on ones it thinks are good?
17:21:30 <ehird> and make a seperate ones for ones it doesn't like
17:21:39 <ehird> so it's easier - "yep, that's right" or "no, that's wrong"
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17:26:52 <GregorR> The script is completely unaware of the neural net.
17:26:56 <GregorR> The script just collects data.
17:31:38 <ehird> GregorR: make it aware
17:31:59 <ehird> GregorR: better idea
17:32:04 <ehird> make it only give ones the neural net isn't sure about
17:32:27 <GregorR> Yeah, it's a good idea, it's just a PITA because I didn't design it that way :P
17:32:52 <ehird> GregorR: well do it :P
17:35:47 <GregorR> Incidentally, do you agree with my assumption that this should be determinable by a computer?
17:38:31 <GregorR> Good, because I want a computer to tell me if my tie matches my shirt, damn it :P
17:39:18 <ehird> GregorR: now modify the script
17:43:05 <GregorR> I don't think you know how difficult that would be.
17:43:09 <GregorR> I would have to implement a neural net in PHP
17:43:20 <GregorR> Which isn't complicated ...
17:43:32 <GregorR> (The 'n' is important :P )
17:43:50 <pikhq> Gregor, that's brilliantly clever.
17:43:55 <GregorR> Besides, to be honest I doubt that would help all that much.
17:43:57 <ehird> GregorR: no you dont
17:44:04 <ehird> just interface with a commandline program
17:44:24 <GregorR> ehird: Presently the commandline program only knows how to evolve things and give their statistics :P
17:44:32 <ehird> GregorR: tweak it a tiny bit.
17:44:52 <GregorR> ehird: Besides, I would have to interface with the /currently running one/, which is IPC.
17:45:58 <mbishop> a computer to determine your fashion? brilliant!
17:46:57 <mbishop> Althought that wouldn't help me, as I don't wear clothes
17:47:13 <GregorR> Yay for text-based communication protocols.
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17:51:41 <pikhq> GregorR: Neural net to see if colors match.
17:52:46 <GregorR> Ah. When I say I want a computer to tell me if my tie matches my shirt, I'm not making a joke. That is really, truly the reason I wrote this :P
17:53:01 <ais523> GregorR: after all, you get a computer to choose your hat...
17:53:05 <ais523> (via human input, though)
17:53:22 <GregorR> I used to get a computer to do it totally randomly, but that wasn't democratic enough ;)
17:53:23 <pikhq> I'm not saying that it's a clever joke.
17:53:28 <pikhq> I'm saying that it's clever.
17:53:33 <pikhq> Big difference. ;)
17:56:20 <GregorR> I'm just trying to put it into its ridiculous context :P
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18:16:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | a interpreter/VM/emu could store the compiled code in a cache, meaning that a program would only need to be compiled once.
18:20:34 <ehird> http://divingintointercal.blogspot.com/
18:20:45 <ehird> ais523: http://divingintointercal.blogspot.com/
18:36:51 <oerjan> "The bad news is that the previous sentence is the only good news." :D
18:41:48 <oerjan> "As a programming language, INTERCAL remains every bit as useful as it was over thirty years ago."
18:45:55 <ais523> ehird: I've seen it before
18:45:57 <ais523> has there been a new entry?
18:47:26 <ais523> nope, no new entries since I last saw it
18:47:29 <ais523> I'm worried it's dead...
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18:50:35 <ehird> ais523: last post 07
18:51:08 <ais523> ehird: this is INTERCAL we're talking about, I suspect it requires approx. 12 years before it can truly be considered dead
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19:25:46 <fizzie> Have you bothered to check how many % you'd get if you didn't use your fancy perverted sex-obsessed neural networks, and just used something like a mixture-of-gaussians model estimated from the "pair of colors -> goes-togetherness" data and a fixed threshold to get yes/no out of it?
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19:28:42 <fizzie> Maybe it would be significantly less awesome, though.
19:32:09 <olsner> fancy perverted sex-obsessed neural network == brain, right?
19:33:10 <fizzie> No, I think GregorR's having sex with his artificial neural networks, too. Or making them have sex together. Or some other depraved thing, anyway.
19:41:38 <fizzie> Not that I know of, except that I still haven't fixed out an output length limiter in it.
19:44:25 <AnMaster> I just brought a ethernet switch today... opened the box... why the heck is there a cd in it saying "<brand name of switch>\nMy Digital Life" on it
19:44:42 <ais523> because everything comes with random Windows programs nowadays
19:44:52 <ais523> some of them are actually OK, but generally speaking you can throw them away
19:45:07 <AnMaster> well it doesn't even say what's on it really
19:45:19 <AnMaster> manual is my best guess since there is none elsewhere
19:46:57 <AnMaster> ais523, I just can't see how there could be any windows program related to the switch, it is a consumer one, so no webui or settings or such
19:47:07 <ais523> AnMaster: it doesn't have to be /related/
19:47:15 <ais523> my guess is some sort of digital photo album
19:47:43 <AnMaster> well the cd have the name of the product on it too
19:48:06 <AnMaster> the box of the product however says "independent of operating system" hehe
19:48:16 <ais523> maybe it's an audio CD
19:49:23 <AnMaster> well I'll check later, for now I got to move a few computers around, I may lose connection shortly (or it may work without dropping the connection)
19:50:54 <fizzie> Decided to be brave and just check how much I mess up if I try to add that output length limit to the underload interp without any testing.
19:51:17 <ais523> did you limit output length to 1?
19:51:29 <ais523> ^ul (Hello, world!)S( Hello, again!)S
19:51:30 <fizzie> No, not that I know of, and in any case it should add a "... too much output!" after it.
19:51:39 <AnMaster> grr what a cable mess behind the computer
19:51:40 <ais523> it's ending after the first S instruction
19:51:41 <fizzie> Seems like it just stops at the first S now.
19:51:55 <AnMaster> and several unconnected cables
19:51:58 <oklopol> AnMaster: how many computers do you have?
19:52:28 <AnMaster> and the other one is using a temporary 50 meter ethernet cable I happened to have around
19:52:42 <AnMaster> but that just doesn't work well, you can't close the doors
19:52:51 <AnMaster> so I bought a switch to have in this room
19:53:05 <fizzie> I've got my ` test backwards, heh. And the "too much output" just gets lost because it's added too far away.
19:53:27 <fungot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
19:53:37 <thutubot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
19:53:46 <ais523> your output limit is slightly longer than mine, I think
19:54:00 <ais523> I can't remember what mine is offhand
19:54:09 <ais523> but I think that it's at least written in decimal, so I could check
19:54:16 <ais523> my guess is 255 or 256, because I'm like that
19:54:43 <fizzie> It's also longer than my brainfuck limit.
19:54:44 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++++<-]>[.]
19:54:44 <fungot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...
19:54:56 <fizzie> That one's only ff*, so 225.
19:55:57 <fizzie> (To be entirely accurate, the limit is 777** characters for the entire IRC message, including the "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" part.)
19:56:12 <fizzie> The oko program should now be safe to run:
19:56:14 <fizzie> ^ul (o)(~:S(ko)*( )S~:^):^
19:56:14 <fungot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokok ...too much output!
19:56:32 <ais523> fizzie: what limits do you have?
19:56:58 <ais523> thutubot has number of iterations of the main loop (a time limit), amount of output, and amount of memory used
19:57:09 <ais523> main loop iterations doesn't easily correspond to commands, by the way
19:57:31 <fizzie> Stack length (10k characters), program length (if it tries to extend too far "to the left" -- but I'm not sure that works, I haven't hit it yet), amount of commands executed, and that output limit.
19:57:56 <ais523> fizzie: shall I come up with a massively extending program for you to test program length?
19:58:23 <ais523> oklopol: that extends stack not program
19:58:28 <ais523> and thutubot will run it, but slowly
19:58:40 <thutubot> SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS ...too much output!
19:58:58 <fizzie> I think something like (((longsillything)!)~*:^):^ should grow, but that just results in a "out of time" thing.
19:59:29 <ais523> the stack limit must be a lot shorter than the program limit...
19:59:56 <fizzie> I guess it is, in fact.
20:00:21 <ais523> it's much harder to get a program that blows up exponentially if you can't put it on the stack
20:00:37 <fizzie> Well, I think a linearly extending program should work too.
20:00:47 <ais523> I'll try linearly extending
20:01:02 <ais523> ^ul (:^(foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo)):^
20:02:11 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:02:15 -!- puzzlet has joined.
20:03:21 <AnMaster> while rc/funge got lots of odd limits, for cfunge the only limits would/should be how large size_t is
20:03:48 <fizzie> I think it's still possible to create quite a short program, if you first fill the stack with two few-kilobyte strings, and then execute (~:^):^
20:03:55 <AnMaster> (and off_t or whatever it is that you use for files. can't remember)
20:04:07 <fizzie> Er, substitute "short" with "long-running" there.
20:04:13 <ais523> AnMaster: rc/funge's limits are things like 1000, so they're even not odd
20:04:44 * AnMaster don't feel like joking atm, got a fever so probably heading to bed soon
20:05:01 <ais523> sorry, oerjan seems to be inactive and someone has to make the bad puns
20:05:10 <fungot> foofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoofoo ...too much output!
20:05:20 <ehird> Ha, I beat the repressive linear growth stopper.
20:05:45 <ais523> ehird: the first program doesn't grow linearly
20:06:03 <ehird> (:::^^^):^S <- shouldnt this be 3^3
20:06:19 <ais523> ehird: :::^^^ is something silly like 3 nested infinite loops
20:06:29 <ehird> um what are numbers then
20:06:49 <ais523> to output a number in unary use (x)~^S
20:06:56 <ehird> ais523: ah, thanks
20:07:00 <ehird> ^ul (::**):^(x)~^S
20:07:00 <fungot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
20:07:27 <ais523> 1 is the null string, always fun
20:07:29 <oklopol> :::^^^ means roughly f(f)(f)(f)
20:08:00 <ais523> to be precise, it would be \f.f(f)(f)(f)
20:08:06 <ais523> if not for the fact that the stack could change in the meantime
20:08:41 <ehird> ^ul ()(~:(x)~^S( )S(:*)*~:^):^
20:08:41 <fungot> x xx xxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...too much output!
20:08:54 <ehird> ais523: um what is that outputting?
20:08:57 <ehird> it should be x xx xxx xxxx
20:09:01 <oklopol> +ul ()(:*)(::**)(:::***):::^^^(x)~^S
20:09:06 <ais523> oklopol's program outputs an insanely large number
20:09:10 <ais523> oklopol: let the first one end first
20:09:13 <ehird> ()(~:(x)~^S( )S(:*)*~:^):^
20:09:22 <ais523> yours is doing powers of 2 I think
20:09:28 <ais523> now i have to work out why
20:09:30 <ehird> I just put :* at the end each time
20:09:38 <ehird> do i have to do ::**
20:10:06 <ais523> and you do addition by adding 1 in a loop
20:10:12 <AnMaster> ais523, if everything comes with a cd these days, how comes the mobile phone (cell phone? Or is that US Eng.?) that *can* connect to a computer didn't came with a cd
20:10:13 <ehird> ais523: great, it went over my head
20:10:19 <ehird> I was just starting to "get" underload.
20:10:41 <oklopol> ehird: basically, if you have ::** and you want to make it :::***, just do exactly what that says, concatenate a : and a *
20:10:54 <ais523> so (:)~* to put a : at the start
20:10:59 <ais523> and (*)* to put a * at the end
20:11:08 <ehird> ^ul ()(~:(*)~^S( )S(:)~*(*)*~:^):^
20:11:09 <fungot> * ** *** **** ***** ****** ******* ******** ********* ********** *********** ************ ************* ************** *************** **************** ***************** ****************** ******************* ******************** ********************* ********************** *********************** ************************ ...too much output!
20:11:14 <oklopol> i guess ais523's was actually less spoiling, because if you can't *program* that, you definitely can't *read* it.
20:11:37 <ais523> esolangs have spoilers nowadays?
20:12:17 <oklopol> ais523: i meant if ehird asks how something is done, it's spoiling if you don't hint, but just write the program
20:12:42 <ehird> what about subtraction?
20:12:54 <oklopol> "doing their homework" on channels with a subject that's actually taught somewhere :P
20:13:02 <oklopol> ehird: that's quite simple
20:13:08 <ais523> subtraction is a pain, oklopol worked it out for emself eventually, and asiekerka gave up
20:13:11 <ais523> it's quite simple if you know how
20:13:17 <ais523> but difficult to come up with in the first place
20:13:24 <oklopol> you know what :::*** actually does?
20:13:30 <ehird> duplicates 3 times, conc...
20:13:50 <ehird> call the number, on (:)
20:13:51 <oklopol> now, after :::, do something, before ***, do something, you can make ::: and *** out of running :::***
20:13:58 <ehird> and concatenate all that together
20:14:13 <ais523> oklopol: incidentally, there's an entirely different way to write +1 in Underload: :(:)~^~(*)~^*
20:14:27 <oklopol> how do you drop one from a string of *'s?
20:14:44 <oklopol> you have to come up with something that forms identity when used with *
20:15:10 <ehird> ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~ (*)~^S( )S :::(:)^!(*)^!()(*)^ ~:^):^
20:15:13 <oklopol> ais523: yeah, that's actually a good way to get substraction
20:15:49 <ais523> oklopol: ah, it would be, I don't think I've ever done it like that though, but probably it would be a computational order more efficient than the way I normally do it
20:16:00 <ais523> whereas for addition it's a computational order less efficient
20:16:05 <ehird> ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~(*)~^S( )S:::(:)^!(*)^!()(*)^~:^):^
20:16:05 <fungot> *********** ** ...out of stack!
20:16:29 <oklopol> ais523: you talking about subtraction or addition?
20:17:29 <oklopol> ehird: :::*** actually makes a (::::) when you call it on (:), so it's not actually drop *one*
20:17:50 <ehird> i don't kbnow what to do then
20:17:51 <ais523> oklopol: I'm talking about that technique for both, it makes subtraction faster but addition slower
20:18:04 <ais523> as for subtraction you can generate lots of !s and ()s
20:18:07 <oklopol> ais523: what do you usually do for subtraction?
20:18:22 <oklopol> first, you use the number on (:), that's a given
20:18:42 <oklopol> but you actually want the effect of two less :'s
20:18:46 <oklopol> so what do you need to put here?
20:19:14 <oklopol> you have(:::***) generate ::::
20:19:50 <oklopol> now, you cannot make "two less *'s than the number"
20:19:55 <ehird> ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~(*)~^S( )S:::(:)^!(*)^(!!)*()(*)^~:^):^
20:19:56 <fungot> *********** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ...too much output!
20:20:01 <oklopol> so you need to make four *'s as well
20:20:24 <oklopol> the problem is, with four *'s on three (x)'s, you concatenate random crap into them
20:20:38 <ehird> so put something on there first
20:20:39 <oklopol> so you need to add something more in the middle of the number
20:20:47 <ehird> ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~(*)~^S( )S:::(:)^!(*)^(!!())*()(*)^~:^):^
20:20:47 <fungot> *********** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ...too much output!
20:20:52 <ehird> ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~(*)~^S( )S:::(:)^!(*)^(!!()())*()(*)^~:^):^
20:20:52 <fungot> *********** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ...too much output!
20:21:04 <oklopol> exactly as many as you have there.
20:21:14 <ehird> so wher be my fuckup
20:21:32 <oklopol> **** run on three (x)'s concatenates exactly two pieces of random crap into it
20:21:32 <ehird> ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~:(*)~^S( )S:::(:)^!(*)^(!!)*()(*)^~:^):^
20:22:46 <oklopol> (:)^ this is equivalent to just :
20:23:00 <oklopol> that would make the :'s you need
20:23:10 <ehird> ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~:(*)~^S( )S:::(:)~^!(*)^(!!)*()(*)~^~:^):^
20:23:47 <ais523> ehird: ()(*)~^ is clearly not what you want
20:23:48 <fizzie> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(:)~^(!!)*(()())*~(*)~^*:(x)~^S( )S~:^):^
20:23:49 <fungot> xxxxx xxxx xxx xx x ...too much output!
20:24:05 <ehird> ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~:(*)~^S( )S:::(:)~^!(*)^(!!())*(*)~^~:^):^
20:24:06 <ais523> fizzie: that simplifies a bit
20:24:06 <fungot> *********** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ...too much output!
20:24:31 <ehird> its running it on the weird !!() thing
20:24:38 <ehird> ^ul (::::::::::**********)(~:(*)~^S( )S:::(:)~^!(*)^(!!())*~(*)^~:^):^
20:24:39 <fungot> *********** ...too much prog!
20:24:55 <oklopol> ehird: what's the first ! about?
20:25:12 <oklopol> you create an concatenated piece of :'s on the stack, and then drop it? :D
20:25:26 <oklopol> you shoud comment your underload
20:26:10 <fizzie> My second thought was to do something like
20:26:11 <fizzie> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(:)~^(!!!)*(()()())*~(*)~^*:(:)~^~(*)~^*:(x)~^S( )S~:^):^
20:26:11 <fungot> xxxxx xxxx xxx xx x *x ...out of stack!
20:26:19 <ehird> i'll write a more interesting program
20:26:20 <fizzie> That's not pretty either.
20:26:36 <ehird> i wonder how i could do dip
20:26:56 <ehird> dip : 'R 'a ('R -- 'S) -- 'S 'a
20:26:57 <ais523> dip is very neat in Underload
20:27:01 <ehird> ais523: let me work it out
20:27:21 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(~:(*)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~:^):^
20:27:23 <thutubot> ******* ****** ***** **** *** ** * ...too much output!
20:27:35 <ais523> oklopol: get it to terminate when it's finished?
20:27:43 <oklopol> yeah was just thinking that
20:28:40 <ehird> ais523: dip = ~a*^
20:29:54 <oklopol> +ul (::::::******)(~:(*)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:()~(~:^)~(!()())~(a)~^^!~!^):^
20:29:56 <thutubot> ******* ****** ***** **** *** ** * ...too much output!
20:30:02 <ehird> (foo) (bar) (koed) -> (foo) (koed) (bar) -> (foo) (koed) ((bar)) -> (foo) (koed(bar)) -> voila
20:30:16 <ehird> i didn't even work ~a*^ out on paper, a first for me
20:30:29 <ehird> i had to close my eyes to concentrate enough though
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20:43:41 <fizzie> fungot now trained with the intercal manual; but I couldn't figure out how to generate nice non-wrapped text out of groff, so...
20:43:41 <fungot> fizzie: please abstain from gerund list, line label of which was abstained from. however, as these routines might
20:43:54 <fizzie> So it stops dead in the middle of sentences.
20:43:59 <ais523> fizzie: the Revised Manual, or the Revamped Manual?
20:44:09 <ais523> presumably Revised as it was groff
20:44:17 <fizzie> Whatever was in the doc/ directory of c-intercal 0.2.4 or something.
20:44:32 <fizzie> There's a better manual I could've used?
20:44:37 <ais523> yes, there's a new one
20:44:45 <fizzie> Ooh, that sounds better.
20:44:50 <ais523> but it's only in the more recent versions
20:45:18 <ais523> fizzie: http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/doc/ick.txi is the source
20:47:40 <fizzie> Let's see what reading that does to fungot.
20:47:41 <fungot> fizzie: maybe don't give your name ( in other programming languages.
20:47:51 <fungot> ais523: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions
20:48:06 <ais523> it's the "portability" boxes
20:48:13 <ais523> there are lots of them
20:48:17 <fizzie> fungot: Could you ignore that?
20:48:17 <fungot> fizzie: copyright ( c). to install elsewhere ( in this way. note that the program can either decide that it needs to be used; a default value will be available to unpack the installation directory, so otherwise there would be executed.
20:48:32 <ais523> fungot: more Revamped Manual info?
20:48:33 <fungot> ais523: however, clc-intercal uses lowercase to represent multiplication by 1000000 writes a backslash before the current directory by typing `cd ick-0.29') on the user to find the appropriate cross-compiler to translate its programs from the internet, including any `once' or `next from's, `next from's aiming at a command whose line label that the compiler doesn't use them.)
20:49:08 <fizzie> That didn't make much sense.
20:49:16 <ais523> fungot: make more sense
20:49:16 <fungot> ais523: this is tested mostly with that compiler, what actually happens, then the file it was hardcoded as a function ( for instance, `-h' ( currently the only way to pop the top of stack.
20:49:33 <fizzie> So "-h" is the only way to pop. Right.
20:51:31 <fizzie> I don't think the bot is being a very useful intercal reference; I guess I'll switch to some other text.
20:51:49 <fungot> ais523: there is a fatal error ( e000) due to the error that would otherwise not have to simplify the program will end up with a higher character code; the ' marker'; a marker is represented as a thread, one digit at a labeled statement, and c-intercal version 0.29).
20:52:29 <ehird> fizzie: Feed it the first million digits of pi, make it always start on 3.
20:52:42 <ehird> and make it based on 2 chars
20:54:07 <fizzie> Wouldn't that just make it a less-than-stellar RNG?
20:54:41 <ehird> fizzie: Well, maybe.
20:54:46 <ehird> fizzie: Make it order=10 chars.
20:54:52 <ehird> It'd look like pi, unless you knew pi.
20:55:24 <fizzie> I'd think any string of random digits would look like pi, as long as it "starts right".
20:55:36 <ais523> there's that Pi programming language, isn't there
20:55:45 <ais523> which encodes the program as subtle errors in digits of the number pi
20:57:37 <fizzie> In the wiki there's also "Another Pi Language", where the source code is two arbitrary integers; first is the index in pi and second is the amount of digits to read; that is then interpreted as "source file of any language". Unsurprisingly unimplemented.
20:57:59 <ais523> that language should itself be Pi, obviously
20:58:13 <fizzie> Pi seems to be the errors-in-pi one.
20:58:26 <ais523> the "source file of any language" should be Pi source
20:58:38 <ais523> thus you have to find a Pi program embedded in Pi
20:58:49 <fizzie> Yes, I understood that.
20:59:28 <fizzie> At least the Pi article has an implementation that will convert brainfuck into it.
21:18:21 <AnMaster> this new phone only have weird sounds, no classical beeping ones
21:18:28 * AnMaster liked that with his old old phone
21:18:33 <ais523> that's common practice nowadays
21:18:38 <ais523> you have to /pay/ if you want beeps
21:18:43 <ais523> download them from a beep website
21:18:45 <AnMaster> I guess I could make one and transfer it
21:19:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't have internet on my phone. Only pay for a cheap connection
21:19:29 <ais523> even then there are numbers you can ring for that sort of thing
21:19:31 <AnMaster> since all I need is to make calls and to send sms
21:19:37 * ais523 doesn't have a mobile at all
21:20:01 <AnMaster> my old phone was an old one with black and white screen. However, you could make your own tunes on it
21:20:20 <ais523> you used to be able to send texts for free
21:20:32 <ais523> but the phone companies realised people would pay for the privilege
21:20:36 <ais523> so they started charging
21:20:40 <ais523> that was a few years ago now
21:20:46 <AnMaster> on my old phone I could make my own beeping sounds
21:20:55 <AnMaster> it didn't even have non-beepy ones
21:21:22 <AnMaster> why can't I just make my own beepy ones on it
21:21:31 <ais523> because people will pay to download them
21:21:43 <ais523> well, some people will
21:21:49 <ais523> and that's all the phone compaines care about...
21:21:58 <AnMaster> I will try to figure out how to export to the *.aac format and then find a laptop with bluetooth to transfer it
21:22:33 <AnMaster> I *can* play the piano and I do have a keyboard + midi cables
21:23:16 <ehird> .aac = apple's format
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21:23:35 <AnMaster> hm wikipedia says "ISO/IEC 13818-7:2003"
21:23:35 <ehird> AnMaster: if you give me a bunch of files i can make them into aacs
21:23:38 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Coding
21:23:39 <ehird> well, yeah, it's standard
21:23:44 <ehird> but itunes uses it by default
21:23:47 <ehird> as well as the itunes store
21:23:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I would be surprised if there is no tool to convert for linux
21:24:12 <ehird> there seem to be ways to convert FROM it
21:24:15 <ehird> but not to convert TO
21:25:06 <AnMaster> that's what I used on my old phone anyway.
21:26:23 <AnMaster> hm how to render the midi file to beepy sound like a phone.
21:26:24 <ehird> AnMaster: you could just use a ringing sound.
21:26:31 <ehird> also, what phone is it
21:27:37 <ehird> AnMaster: are you sure it doesn't support midi?
21:28:04 <AnMaster> ehird, no, I'm not sure, I just checked what format the existing files were in
21:28:11 <ehird> AnMaster: try and put the midi on.
21:28:41 <AnMaster> ehird, my computer lacks bluetooth, so I'll need to try it later when I get access to a laptop with bluetooth
21:29:06 <AnMaster> ehird, "cable not included with phone" and I didn't think I would need it
21:29:11 <AnMaster> + they didn't have it in stock
21:29:42 <AnMaster> memory card: no I don't have any micro-sd reader or cards, my camera use compact flash
21:29:51 <AnMaster> which of course would be too big for a phone
21:30:47 <AnMaster> and I don't have such a reader either
21:32:10 <AnMaster> why can't they make phones like my old nokia 2100 these days? :(
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21:45:35 <ais523> it seems Keymaker just proved Sceql TC
21:52:50 <oklopol> i wish it wasn't just a compilation, i can't exactly reverse-engineer what happens
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22:17:52 <AnMaster> ais523, that cd with the router: acrobat reader + manual. So it was just badly labeled
22:27:20 <AnMaster> one page manual per language heh
22:27:31 <AnMaster> (wouldn't printing it be easier?)
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22:45:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, grr I can't find url to fungot
22:45:29 <fungot> AnMaster: guess everyone's here... cloud.
22:45:55 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
22:45:59 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2
22:46:08 <ais523> oh, for a moment I though fungot was a real user, and was trying to figure out what its line meant
22:46:08 <fungot> ais523: no matter how you feel it. then we'll know that's our memory...... calling...... that thing's not human......
22:48:21 <ehird> fizzie: put lovecraft in to it
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22:59:57 <comex> fungot: do you still speak Agoran?
23:00:20 <ais523> comex: not any more, fizzie filled it with something else
23:00:27 <ais523> fungot's spouting a computer game script now, I think
23:00:27 <fungot> ais523: i'm... i'm so disgusted with the story about sephiroth.... you really have to kill me!! that young fellow!?
23:11:58 <fizzie> Okay, fungot now has the lovecraft.
23:11:59 <fungot> fizzie: on the other, he knew that it touched on the scenes i had haunted, and i felt myself touched by the contagion of the morbid fnord. to my mind rushed fragments of a more provocative nature. there were cities under the sea.
23:12:59 <fizzie> AnMaster: The raw sources are http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt and if you replace b98.txt with html you'll get the silly only partially done commentation.
23:13:00 <fungot> fizzie: moon over japan, fnord with filth, where a bit of fnord but iranon stayed ever young, and of shadowy companies of heroes that ride fnord white horses along the edges of the aperture itself in my ascent, and managed to avoid any distant glimpse of the broken columns and crumbling sphinxes of that fearful city which lived and died before the years of man.
23:13:33 <AnMaster> ^def source ul (http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt)S
23:13:36 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
23:13:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, hope you like that idea
23:16:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, also firefox 2 says that a script have stopped responding on http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html
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23:16:56 <fungot> AnMaster: " ia! shub-niggurath! as a foulness shall ye know them,' he asked softly, ' did you see it here... and smell it?' and when mr. ward, it is hard to place the fragmentary dream-glimpses in the fnord lips an all but impassable barrier. from my experience i cannot doubt but that you will want to lead an expedition to the desert and its carven stones.
23:17:03 <AnMaster> wondering if I want to abort it
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23:17:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and lovecraft in fungot sucks
23:17:28 <fungot> AnMaster: as the newspapers told, we sailed from boston harbor on september 2nd, 1930, taking a leisurely course down the coast and through the doorway came a faint but peculiarly hateful odor must represent the collected sections of the entity which lake had tried to follow backward the frescoes he had passed the open fnord purple slopes. against these fnord i have proven false to alos, my friend was always far ahead; i could
23:19:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, also does fungot use any other fingerprints apart from FING STRN SOCK SCKE FILE TOYS SUBR
23:19:33 <fungot> AnMaster: he was half crazy himself, and stuff them fnord into an account of his sea voyaging, had a depth and hollowness that could not be applied to analogous qualities in a fnord and promising cat now, and have kept certain doubts and guesses to ourselves with splendid unity and fnord.
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23:28:06 <fizzie> Haven't tried saving underload programs yet.
23:28:10 <fizzie> I don't think it uses any others.
23:28:19 <fungot> (http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt)S
23:28:32 <fizzie> Nice, although it should be in the ^help text optimally.
23:28:48 <fizzie> Of course, given the underload interp I think I could just replace ^help with a program like that.
23:29:12 <fizzie> (The only thing missing would be that currently it gets the '^' command character from whatever you define it in the loader. Oh, well.)
23:29:49 <fizzie> The script does quite a lot of computation; it shouldn't be in an infinite loop, but FF2's JavaScript engine is quite a lot slower than FF3's.
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23:32:17 <AnMaster> it tooks 3 clicks in that dialog for it to finish
23:32:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh you got an fd leak on ^raw quit
23:32:44 <AnMaster> ==16011== Open AF_INET socket 3: 192.168.0.64:38732 <-> 85.188.1.26:6667
23:32:44 <AnMaster> ==16011== at 0x35FAEC1267: socket (in /lib64/libc-2.6.1.so)
23:32:44 <AnMaster> ==16011== by 0x41967E: finger_SOCK_create (SOCK.c:376)
23:34:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway what fingerprints and what functions from which fingerprints are used. Since I consider fungot very important I want to make sure those instructions perform well. For example I rewrote A of STRN to be a bit faster today (could probably be made even faster)
23:34:39 <fungot> AnMaster: the reason why arthur jermyns charred fragments were not collected and buried lies in what was certainly not english. i boarded it and looked vainly about for the light fnord as i was, i could at least bar others from the outside, so the party was somewhat abated. vast walls shot up, and in
23:35:35 <AnMaster> also STRN is kind of weird. I mean it copies between stack and funge space, yet converts them to unsigned char* in between. I mean... what a waste. But I guess using strings of funge_cell could break stuff
23:46:51 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't bother closing that single socket I have.
23:47:05 <fizzie> I do properly close the language model files I open every time someone speaks to the bot.
23:47:25 <fizzie> fungot: Go back to IRC chat for now.
23:47:26 <fungot> fizzie: or simply sub by 47
23:50:52 <fizzie> Let's see... from FILE I use G/P for the state file (not performance-critical at all) and then R/S a whole lot for the babbling; FING Y/Z but not much; from STRN it's mostly G, P, N, L, C, A, S, V approximately in that order of frequent use (so G/P most, S/V pretty much in the state file saving/loading only); ...
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23:52:10 <fizzie> From SOCK it's just R/W most of the time, from TOYS only S to clear the old code when ^reloading (so it might be good if S'ing to value 32 would actually clear those cells), and from SUBR only a C/R pair for ^code.
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01:34:05 <GregorR> http://home.codu.org/colormatch/check.html // seems to sorta-kinda work 8-D
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01:38:05 <GregorR> Result: My shirt matches my tie 8-D
01:40:03 <oerjan> or so one would assume
01:55:10 <ENKI-][> GregorR: http://photos-b.l3-t.facebook.com/photos-l3-sf2p/v355/140/51/644027966/n644027966_1050121_9574.jpg <-- wear this.
01:55:50 <GregorR> Also, why is nobody as excited about my aesthetic color chooser as I am :P
01:56:20 <ihope> Because Google Chrome is being slow.
01:57:04 <ihope> And having tie fetish attacks.
01:57:11 * ihope re-ponders the subject of that sentence
01:58:04 <oerjan> ENKI-][: i cannot make out who i am supposed to obey there
01:58:23 <ENKI-][> oerjan: it's OBEY spelled backwards.
01:59:06 <ENKI-][> oerjan: i also have a CTHULU/DAGON '08 shirt to wear to erection day.
02:00:55 <oerjan> also i prefer the Allosaurus to Cthulhu
02:04:01 <ENKI-][> dagon is the one who made a small new england port town sacrifice virgins to it until it ate the whole down
02:05:25 <oerjan> +ul (a::aaa:::)((!()):a)~*^(~S:^):^
02:05:26 <thutubot> (((((!())))))(((((!())))))(((((!())))))(((((!())))))((!()))((!()))!() ...S out of stack!
02:06:13 <oerjan> GregorR: 0 is rejected, 1 accepted i take
02:06:18 <ENKI-][> ooh. what language is that? i remember seeing it somewhere
02:06:39 <GregorR> oerjan: And for some reason it doesn't take identical colors as a match, I should probably generate some cases for that.
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02:33:51 <GregorR> Heh, this stupid project spanned three languages X-D
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03:22:55 <Asztal> am I right in thinking it presses "check match" for you if you use the random button?
03:23:08 <Asztal> because I can't find one which doesn't match #489764 :(
03:23:36 <Asztal> though the result does flicker from 0 to 1 occasionally
03:23:42 <GregorR> When you press random it chooses a random /matching/ one.
03:24:05 <GregorR> It generates a random number, checks it, and if it fails, loops.
03:25:16 <Asztal> ah, yes, #ff00ff quite easily results in 0
03:28:58 <oerjan> +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!):a)~*^()(:a~*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^S
03:30:52 <oerjan> +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!):a)~*^()(~S:^):^
03:30:53 <thutubot> (((((!!)))))(((((!!)))))(((((!!)))))(((((!!)))))((!!))((!!))!! ...S out of stack!
03:31:23 <oerjan> +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!):a)~*^()(~aS:^):^
03:31:24 <thutubot> ()((((((!!))))))((((((!!))))))((((((!!))))))((((((!!))))))(((!!)))(((!!)))(!!) ...a out of stack!
03:38:25 <oerjan> +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^S
03:39:50 <oerjan> +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*):^(~a^S:^):^
03:39:51 <thutubot> ~:(*a(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*):^)~^(((((!!)))))(((((!!)))))(((((!!)))))(((((!!)))))((!!))((!!))!! ...a out of stack!
03:40:26 <oerjan> +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*):^(~aS:^):^
03:40:27 <thutubot> (~:(*a(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*):^)~^)()((((((!!))))))((((((!!))))))((((((!!))))))((((((!!))))))(((!!)))(((!!)))(!!) ...a out of stack!
03:46:08 <oerjan> +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^S
03:46:09 <thutubot> (((((((((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))((!!()())))((!!()())))
03:46:33 <oerjan> +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(~aS:^):^
03:46:35 <thutubot> ((((((((((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))((!!()())))((!!()())))) ...a out of stack!
04:02:10 <oerjan> +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(~*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(~aS:^):^
04:02:12 <thutubot> ((((!!()()))(((!!()()))((((((!!()())))))((((((!!()())))))((((((!!()())))))((((((!!()())))))))))))) ...a out of stack!
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04:29:20 <oerjan> +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*)~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*^):^
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04:30:39 <oerjan> +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*)~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*):^(~aS:^):^
04:30:40 <thutubot> (~a*^((^)((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())!^^(^):^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*)~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*)((((((((((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))((!!()())))((!!()())))) ...too much output!
04:44:13 <oerjan> +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*^):^
04:44:37 <oerjan> +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*^):^
04:45:57 <oerjan> +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*^)()~^(~aS:^):^
04:45:58 <thutubot> ()(!!()())(((((((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))()(!(A)S(^)*())((:)S)(^) ...a out of stack!
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04:48:30 <oerjan> +ul (a::aaa:::)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*()*^):^(~aS:^):^
04:48:31 <thutubot> (~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*()*^)(!!()())(((((((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()()))))))(((((!!()())))))) ...too much output!
04:52:19 <oerjan> +ul (a::aaa:::aa)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*^):^
04:52:35 <oerjan> +ul (::aaa:::aa)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*^):^
04:53:34 <oerjan> +ul (:a:)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*^):^
04:54:06 <oerjan> +ul (a:a:)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(^)(~:a(((:)S)(!(A)S(^)*())())*(^)~a*(~a*^)*~*(!^^)*~a*(:^)*^):^
04:54:53 <oerjan> +ul (a:a:)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(~aS:^):^
04:54:54 <thutubot> (((((((!!()()))))(((!!()()))))((!!()())))) ...a out of stack!
04:54:56 <immibis> i see a lot of smiley faces, cakes and angels
04:55:25 <oerjan> +ul (::a:)((!!()()):a)~*^()(a(:^)*(*a)~*a(~:)~*(~^)*^!^):^(~aS:^):^
04:55:26 <thutubot> (((((((!!()())))((!!()())))(!!()()))(!!()()))) ...a out of stack!
05:01:09 <oerjan> hm there appear to be two sets of outer parentheses
05:01:48 <oerjan> that would clearly cause some bug
05:09:16 <immibis> Should I agree with you? I don't know Underload.
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05:12:17 <oerjan> since i'm barely understanding the program myself, i don't expect anyone to agree :D
05:12:53 <immibis> is this program generating itself or something
05:13:16 <oerjan> no, i am trying to split up a list of a's and :'s
05:14:13 <oerjan> oh, there are parts that are self-generating, since that's the only way to loop in underload
05:15:32 <oerjan> but i think my brain has had enough for now
05:18:56 <oerjan> underload contains no command for splitting a string into characters, but i figured it should be theoretically possible if the characters are all a and :
05:22:28 <oerjan> the second part is completely wrong, because a doesn't cause a new list element
05:22:48 <oerjan> needs a different strategy
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06:37:24 <oklopol> oerjan: that's a wonderful idea
06:40:48 <oklopol> lol green is the only thing that doesn't go with black
06:41:18 <oklopol> i can answer you indirectly
06:41:31 <oklopol> by highlighting the one i was indirectly talking to
06:42:12 * oerjan assumes oklopol was misspelling GregorR as oerjan
06:42:12 <oklopol> GregorR: i would be quite interested, if i believed colors can "go together", i don't.
06:42:48 <oklopol> wonderful idea was about the underload thing
06:43:37 <oklopol> did you try to replicate the functionality, or push the string splittered on the stack?
06:44:30 <oerjan> so far, i tried to print it out with a's upper cased
06:47:14 <oklopol> ouch, tried to rip my toenail off, but forgot i need to push my fingernail through the side first, or it won't come peacefully.
06:47:40 * oerjan prefers a nailcutter for all such things
06:49:10 <oklopol> isn't that pretty gay? probably doesn't even make you bleed.
06:49:39 <oklopol> (i don't have a nailcutter here, would probably use one if i had one near me)
06:51:12 * oerjan always carries one, in case of accidents
06:51:41 <oklopol> err, well that definitely sounds pretty gay :P
06:52:18 <oerjan> my nails are so fragile that if i don't do it properly at once they start disintegrating at the least provocation
06:52:52 <oklopol> i have boring normal nails :<
06:53:45 <oerjan> well at least i don't polish them :D
06:54:16 <oerjan> although that might actually have helped with the fragility
06:55:04 <oklopol> so you fin[n]ish them, but not polish them; what other countries do you them?
06:55:57 <oklopol> hmm; lecture starts about now, i should probably consider leaving.
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10:33:26 <AnMaster> <fizzie> From SOCK it's just R/W most of the time, from TOYS only S to clear the old code when ^reloading (so it might be good if S'ing to value 32 would actually clear those cells), and from SUBR only a C/R pair for ^code. <-- don't they already?
10:36:43 <fizzie> It might, I haven't checked at all.
10:38:10 <fizzie> I guess you do that already in fungespace_set for any space.
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12:16:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | that's some serious time dilation.
12:17:15 <optbot> M0ny: i suppose there have been worse last words.
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13:41:20 <AnMaster> Hey anyone know a good software to synth electronic mono-phonic (like old mobile phones) sound? For Linux. Using a MIDI file as input.
14:00:05 <ehird> AnMaster: You're being a bit obsessive with your bleeps
14:04:14 <ehird> AnMaster: You could just put the midi on it. :-P
14:04:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Just use a regular midi-to-mp3 rendering thing, then.
14:04:54 <ehird> I don't think there are programs that make it sound like an old mobile.
14:04:59 <ehird> At least I've never heard of any.
14:05:14 <ehird> It'd be hard, what with the whole "polyphony" thing that MIDIs have.
14:05:27 <AnMaster> otherwise I shall program my pc speaker and record it
14:05:38 <ehird> AnMaster: as i said - obsessive
14:06:04 <AnMaster> I could maybe temp mend my old phone and record that
14:09:22 <ehird> AnMaster: or you could just render the mid to a mp3 and put it on and forget about it because it's a bloody ringtone
14:10:37 <fizzie> You could take some sequencer application and change the instruments in the midi file to sound more bleepy.
14:11:00 <ehird> Even better, download a ring-ring sound off the interwebs and put it on.
14:11:05 <ehird> That's not very modern.
14:11:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I doubt the "The Internationale" exists as that ;P
14:12:03 <ehird> AnMaster: I meant just a regular ring, ring.
14:12:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, good idea. Now where to find that...
14:12:22 <ehird> That's as old as the telephone, so you can stay comfy in ancient history.
14:12:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I *will* do this, nothing you say will change my mind
14:12:50 <ehird> As I said. Obsessive.
14:17:22 <ehird> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/28/student_charged/ (Insert typical el reg disclaimer.)
14:38:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think I got an idea: Make a custom beepy soundfont, load that into to fluidsynth
14:43:00 <ehird> http://wiki.openid.net/LID_Look_and_Feel Someone on the OpenID wiki complains that when entering their openid "socialism.is.EVIL.myopenid.com", it picks the default name "socialism" to log in to the wiki. (At the bottom)
14:45:29 <AnMaster> ehird, well I think socialism is good
14:45:40 <ehird> that's wholly irrelevant to my amusement but... whatever
14:47:02 <fizzie> Heh, the "screen shot of the trauma of picking an ID name for this wiki" part was funny.
14:47:10 <fizzie> Must've been very traumatic indeed.
14:48:37 <ehird> fizzie: Don't you have any FEELINGS?
14:48:40 <ehird> The wiki was MOCKING HIM!
15:21:28 <AnMaster> well anyway I think combining a sine tone and a square one works quite weel
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15:51:20 * AnMaster prepares to properly record it, stopping stuff that can cause delays and such
15:56:02 <jix> ehird: can you not just stop doing that???!
15:56:13 <ehird> jix: i lose the game regularly
15:56:18 <ehird> #esoteric is a convenient tab.
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16:01:28 <oklopol> i don't see what's so wrong about that game
16:02:00 <ehird> oklopol: anmaster makes a point to say how much he doesn't care every time someone mentions it
16:02:11 <ehird> http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28694
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16:05:58 <oklopol> ehird: many people do that; i'm not commenting the habit of repeatedly stating your opinions, i don't see why people have such strong opinions about the game
16:06:14 <ehird> anmaster doesn't, really, though
16:06:47 <ehird> for all X, he has an opinion on X, for a majority of X, he has a half-baked opinion on X (just like everyone else), but for the same majority he repeatedly states his half-baked opinion on x
16:06:57 <ehird> most people tend to only repeatedly state their strong opinions.
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16:33:35 <ehird> http://www.pageflip.hu/ oh god.
16:36:30 <Azstal> not bad, but it doesn't crease if I turn it sharply enough
16:36:57 <ehird> Azstal: you can actually rip the pages off
16:37:26 <Azstal> some of the pages are un-rippable though
16:37:41 <ehird> i've spent a few minutes trying to demolish it
16:48:41 <AnMaster> (checked with mp3 too, but that file was larger and even worse sound quality
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17:19:03 <oklopol> how can they be ripped off?
17:20:09 <ehird> oklopol: drag them off
17:20:11 <ehird> like... ripping IRL
17:20:15 <ehird> some of them can't be
17:20:51 <oklopol> ah, doesn't work for cover.
17:20:55 <AnMaster> ah not as in circumventing drm then
17:21:17 <ehird> ripping isn't "circumventing DRM"
17:21:25 <ehird> ripping is e.g. copying audio data from a cd to a computer
17:21:29 <ehird> which is totally legal :-P
17:21:48 <ehird> depends on your interpretation of the dmca
17:21:51 <ehird> when talking about a drm'd cd.
17:21:51 <AnMaster> however these days that usually includes circumventing drm
17:22:04 <ehird> i've never circumvented any DRM once to rip a cd
17:22:05 <Slereah_> 10^n points for the nth level of recursion
17:22:37 <Slereah_> I thought of that between thinking of bees and hats.
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18:05:04 <ehird> the wikipedians are discussing what they'd do if someone named a book Main Page
18:05:12 <ehird> [[If someone announces that they are writing a book about Wikipedia titled Main Page, I suggest we indef hard-rangeblock his ISP until agrees to name it something else :-)]]
18:05:35 <ehird> oerjan: and where does the disambig link go?
18:05:40 <ehird> What about people searching Main Page in the search bar?
18:05:51 <oerjan> Main Page (disambiguation) of course
18:06:01 <ehird> oerjan: and where would you link to that
18:06:13 <ehird> on the top of the main page? that's distracting clutter for, like, 1% of all traffic
18:06:15 <oerjan> heh, there is a slight problem
18:06:23 <oerjan> and also free advertising :D
18:07:34 <ehird> conclusion: someone do it. The resulting bureaucratic glob will destroy Wikipedia.
18:11:34 <oerjan> hm the idea of moving the Main Page to WP: at least seems reasonable
18:11:53 <lament> wp should bloody fix their bloody software
18:12:11 <lament> they have far more urgent problems than hypothetical books
18:12:18 <lament> if you search for C# it takes you to C
18:12:27 <lament> that's called a "bug" and they haven't fixed it in years
18:12:54 <lament> (so they need a disambig entry for C#, which itself is a disambig page, on the C page)
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18:13:47 <lament> (same with every other note)
18:14:01 <oerjan> well the use of # is a general html thing isn't it? not restricted to wp
18:14:15 <lament> sure, but what's html got to do with it?
18:14:49 <lament> they could have some escaping mechanism
18:14:56 <lament> and let the search box be aware of it
18:16:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hi kipple.
18:16:49 <oklopol> why is main_page in article space anyway?
18:17:03 <oerjan> it might be enough to trap titles ending with #, i doubt wp uses empty anchor names
18:17:35 <oklopol> so that you could have competing main_pages?
18:17:35 <ehird> oklopol: history, and if they did e.g. Portal:Main all the bookmarks would break
18:17:50 <ehird> oklopol: if they just redirected - then there's no way to put another article ther
18:17:58 <ehird> so, no benefit for extra confusion essentially
18:18:29 <oklopol> i see, backwards-compatibility, the mother of all that is ugly.
18:18:30 <ehird> also, it's not an "html thing"
18:18:47 <lament> oerjan: well, right now the problem is the title of the C# page is C-Sharp because they disallow C#
18:18:47 <AnMaster> lament, err C# is non-trivial to handle, since the browser would probably treat it the same way as foo.html#anchor
18:18:48 <ehird> oklopol: i think if you ran a site as big as wp you'd care about that too.
18:18:58 <ehird> C# will be sent escaped
18:19:03 <ehird> they just fuck that up in the interm
18:19:05 <lament> AnMaster: i'm not talking about the name of the HTML page
18:19:11 <lament> AnMaster: i'm talking about the title of the article
18:19:18 <lament> AnMaster: WP started with the two being the same
18:19:19 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C# wouldn't work well however
18:19:23 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it wouldn't
18:19:24 <oklopol> ehird: the other way around; if i was a person who would care about that, i might have a page as big as wp
18:19:26 <ehird> but how many people hack the urls?
18:19:30 <oklopol> if i had, now, a page as big as wp
18:19:31 <ehird> compared to people using the search box
18:19:39 <oklopol> i'd probably just close it down for the fuck of it.
18:19:41 <lament> AnMaster: the title of the article and the name of the html page are two different entities
18:19:49 <ehird> oklopol: yeah, but, nobody would put you in charge of anything.
18:19:50 <lament> if they're the same, the system is badly designed
18:20:02 <AnMaster> lament, well it used to be that way :P
18:20:06 <ehird> not even a pancake.
18:20:20 <lament> AnMaster: right, exactly
18:20:21 <ehird> 'it used to be that way'?
18:20:24 <lament> WP started off badly designed
18:20:24 <ehird> that doesn't erally make any sense
18:20:27 <ehird> it still IS that way.
18:20:40 <lament> at least WP doesn't need camelcase now.
18:20:42 <oerjan> ehird: if people hack urls they should expect technical issues anyway
18:20:44 <oklopol> ehird: perhaps not, i don't see what that has to do with anything
18:21:15 <ehird> i'm all for url-hacking
18:21:21 <ehird> but... if you're url hacking, know how to escape shit, okay
18:22:12 <lament> the article for the note C# is
18:22:38 <oklopol> would be interesting to see if something bad actually happened if wp or a related entity changed it's main page
18:22:40 <lament> but the disambig is not needed because there isn't any other C♯
18:22:45 <oklopol> that probably happens every now and then
18:23:10 <ehird> several articles are like that
18:23:15 <ehird> just because the disambig makes it easier to see in the page title
18:25:58 <oklopol> ehird: also why wouldn't anyone put me in charge, it's not like they knew i would just bring the thing down for fun if i could
18:26:41 <ehird> oklopol: now they do
18:26:47 <ehird> you just said it in a publicly logged channel
18:27:01 <oklopol> yeah, and someone is so gonna see that.
18:27:32 <oklopol> anyway, i probably wouldn't bring it down if i got money out of it; but i definitely would do a name change in the name of purity.
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19:33:10 <asiekierka> [<.] - a Self-modifying BF quine... i think
19:33:12 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source
19:36:13 <fizzie> [anything] will never print out anything.
19:37:13 <fungot> asiekierka: what's the question there too... but it's in the gray zone. the black parts show the table? can you lisppaste input output code?
19:37:27 <fungot> asiekierka: scheme's file system interface is sadly lacking.)
19:37:45 <asiekierka> fungot: Lacking? And i don't know scheme, too!
19:37:46 <fungot> asiekierka: http://www.wftv.com/ slideshow/ news/ technology/ fnord is great.
19:38:06 <asiekierka> fungot: That link is scary. WolF TV, it may be...
19:38:07 <fungot> asiekierka: i'm an east side type...
19:38:18 <asiekierka> fungot: East side? So the east side doesn't know wolves?
19:38:53 <asiekierka> fungot: East side? So the east side doesn't know wolves?
19:39:09 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source smbf_quine
19:39:16 <fungot> (http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt)S
19:39:23 <fizzie> It goes into that ignore mode if you have talked to it too much.
19:39:48 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
19:40:13 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
19:42:38 <fizzie> AnMaster added that one; I think he keeps forgetting the URL. Although I did think about maybe using the Underload interp to do ^help too; no real need to have it as a built-in, except that it can't be redefined right now to something obscene.
19:43:05 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
19:43:12 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source smbf_quine help
19:43:52 <asiekierka> ^def help ul (What are you looking for? Type ^help you idiot! ):::***S
19:43:52 <fizzie> Built-ins override all defined commands, but I don't exactly check for them in ^def.
19:43:57 <fungot> (What are you looking for? Type ^help you idiot! ):::***S
19:44:28 <asiekierka> ^def help ul (What are you looking for? Type ^help you idiot! ):::***S
19:45:24 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source
19:45:44 <fungot> >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
19:45:48 <fungot> +2[[<+7[-<+7>]>[-<+<+>>]<[->+<]<-2.[-]<]+4[->+8<]>.[-]>>[-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>-8>+>[->+>+<2]+>>[<2->>[-]]<2[>+<-]>[-<+>]<4-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<[-]]]]]]]]]]<[->+<]>+>[-<+>]>>]<3]
19:45:51 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ...
19:46:04 <fizzie> I did that as a small BrainFuck exercise the other day.
19:47:18 <fungot> I HATE THIS ECHO! I HATE THIS ECHO!
19:47:32 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
19:47:42 <fizzie> It's a reasonable echo. Compared to the lot sillier cho and choo commands.
19:49:30 <asiekierka> ^def talk ul (optbot: I want to talk with you, because this guy here, just above me, asked me to do it.)S
19:49:33 <fungot> optbot: I want to talk with you, because this guy here, just above me, asked me to do it.
19:49:33 <optbot> fungot: spoon was based on BF
19:49:34 <fungot> optbot: you might also read gasbichler's paper on it.
19:49:35 <optbot> fungot: that's impressive.
19:49:35 <fungot> optbot: you may now continue :) right on.
19:49:36 <fungot> optbot: maybe you should make them relative links and can delete messy and dangling links." :)
19:49:36 <optbot> fungot: while the POSIX API is clean and nice
19:49:37 <fungot> optbot: no- synthesys is a new scheme user. what was the one where im trying to prevent my hands from my workout.
19:49:54 <asiekierka> THE ULTIMATE SPAMMING WEAPONARY... or is it?
19:50:03 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: where are you from, Slereah?
19:50:07 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: does it have a webpage? like sourceforge or something?
19:50:20 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: i've seen them, all like 5 times though, so i think i'm okay
19:51:52 <fizzie> How do you answer that sort of question, anyway?
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20:45:51 <AnMaster> <fizzie> From SOCK it's just R/W most of the time, from TOYS only S to clear the old code when ^reloading (so it might be good if S'ing to value 32 would actually clear those cells), and from SUBR only a C/R pair for ^code.
20:46:06 <AnMaster> "so it might be good if S'ing to value 32 would actually clear those cells" <-- doesn't it?
20:46:23 <AnMaster> (asked this before but if I got any response that time I missed it)
20:47:55 <fizzie> 11:36:43 < fizzie> It might, I haven't checked at all.
20:47:55 <fizzie> 11:36:45 < fizzie> Just a thought.
20:47:55 <fizzie> 11:38:10 < fizzie> I guess you do that already in fungespace_set for any space.
20:48:32 <AnMaster> well fungespace_set would return the cell in question to the free list I believe when you set to space...
20:49:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and since you depend on STRN so much, be aware of that it uses unsigned char*/char* internally, mostly due to the name STRN. So you may loose precision.
20:49:43 <AnMaster> of course STRN spec isn't clear if that is intended
20:49:51 <fizzie> Well, it's just the IRC messages I'm building with it, so that's all right.
20:50:22 <fizzie> (And the Underload stack is made out of strings, but that's the usual way too.)
20:50:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, also you forgot to mention what you use SCKE for, at least you seem to load it
20:51:30 <fizzie> Yes, it's actually not really used right now. I need the H out of it to parse http:// URLs, but I haven't had time to write the HTTP client parts.
20:51:57 <fizzie> In fact the loader only accepts numeric IPs as the server and uses plain old I; didn't think I was going to need SCKE when I was writing that part.
20:53:14 <AnMaster> generally STRN seems slightly suboptimal (and why on earth is the G so long?)
20:54:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, um you said something about storing weird with STRN G?
20:55:00 <AnMaster> that *may* have been changed a month or two ago
20:55:02 <AnMaster> "functions G and P use deltas of 1,0,0"
20:56:43 <fizzie> I don't remember what I've said.
20:57:28 <fizzie> But I don't think I use G/P for things that are not zero-terminated strings that can consist of bytes just fine.
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21:01:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you ever read with FILE R such that it will read past the end of the actual file?
21:02:07 <fizzie> Nno. Well, not intentionally.
21:02:37 <fizzie> The only file I read with R is the language model, and there I know the offsets and lengths and such.
21:03:05 <GregorR> I made a program to remove inconsistencies from my color matching input, and the new color matcher is better for it.
21:03:15 <GregorR> Using an extremely simple metric, my input was 40% inconsistent.
21:03:41 <AnMaster> GregorR, what are you trying to do?
21:04:04 <GregorR> AnMaster: See http://codu.org/colormatch/
21:04:51 <AnMaster> GregorR, well I don't agree with it always
21:05:58 <GregorR> Uhhh, what? Those go together perfectly.
21:06:05 <AnMaster> GregorR, matter of taste I guess
21:07:01 <AnMaster> #1918D3 and #F6406B <-- horrible too
21:07:33 <AnMaster> and it claims #1918D3 and #076E7F doesn't work together, they work much better than that one above that it suggested
21:07:40 <GregorR> This is purely heuristics, I'm making no guarantees, only that it's not terrible :P
21:07:59 <AnMaster> #1918D3 #132BDD <-- random non match, quite good IMO
21:08:41 <AnMaster> #1918D3 #EC2086 <-- random match, not nice at all
21:08:44 <GregorR> OH, yeah, there's a weird property of the resulting neural net that it always seems to dislike very similar colors.
21:08:58 <fizzie> GregorR: Did someone train it that way?
21:09:19 <GregorR> fizzie: I have no idea, I haven't looked at the input, only the neural net evolver has :P
21:09:50 <fizzie> I mean, I have this vague feeling that you maybe shouldn't choose clothing that has two different-but-quite-close colors.
21:10:04 <GregorR> I recall that being a rule, yeah.
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21:13:33 <AnMaster> GregorR, I think you can find matching ones using HSV
21:17:18 <GregorR> It's easy to generate a matching color given an arbitrary color, it's much more difficult to determine whether two totally arbitrary colors match.
21:18:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, I certainly fail at that according to my mother ;P
21:20:12 <fizzie> Have you plotted any visualizations of the function computed by your net, anyway? I'd certainly like to see the shape, for example in some x=hue 1, y=hue 2, fixed saturation+lightness style plot.
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21:21:41 <fizzie> The version in the interwebs is slightly bad.
21:21:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, can you please upload a new copy?
21:21:54 <fizzie> Adding the ^ul command broke the ^bf one.
21:22:02 <AnMaster> I was trying to profile using gprof
21:22:04 <fizzie> Although it's a "cp", not very uploadingy.
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21:22:10 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
21:22:38 <fizzie> Okay, that file should now be updated.
21:23:42 <AnMaster> on the other hand... I need to mess to find out why no profiling stuff was generated at all
21:28:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, %show didn't work in /msg
21:29:42 <fizzie> In fact, everything should work in a query pretty much just like on channel, since it's handled by the same code.
21:30:27 <fizzie> fungot: How do you feel about the fact that you have sort-of siblings running around?
21:30:27 <fungot> fizzie: make it pink"." atom) in scheme?
21:31:14 <AnMaster> hm most "own time" was in execute_instruction
21:31:36 <AnMaster> since that just implements core instructions, except k y i and o
21:31:53 <AnMaster> so what time consuming ones are there in there
21:32:20 <fizzie> Well, there certainly is lots of space in the program.
21:32:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, does the program wrap often?
21:33:19 <fizzie> The brainfuck interpreter is also pretty much core instructions only, and that's one of the few things that actually do time-consuming things.
21:34:06 <AnMaster> oh I check if vector is cardinal before I check if it is in range
21:35:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, got a good speed test for it? So I can see if any changes I make actually make a difference
21:35:25 <AnMaster> since it is mostly IO bound this is kind of hard
21:37:38 <fizzie> Well, you can run interesting brainfuck or underload programs; those are probably the only things that care about speedups, anyway.
21:37:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah so can I get the free standing versions of those?
21:38:08 <fizzie> Well, of the Underload interp there's the underload.b98.
21:38:23 <AnMaster> the bf one isn't freestanding?
21:39:00 <fizzie> No, since I coded it directly in fungot. Although you can pretty much use fungot as a freestanding implementation if you just have it connect to a listening netcat which pipes programs at it.
21:39:00 <fungot> fizzie: our government works? :) the original schemes had that in years
21:40:33 <AnMaster> well it seems to help with about 5 miliseconds for mycology :D
21:41:14 <AnMaster> from average 0m0.199s to 0m0.189s
21:41:51 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source bf cat talk
21:41:55 <fungot> ,[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+14<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>>+5[<-5>-]<2-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+
21:42:02 <fungot> >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][]
21:42:10 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
21:42:24 <fizzie> It also takes some fraction of seconds to execute, I think.
21:45:45 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
21:46:11 <fizzie> Well, it's not exactly very slow. But still.
21:46:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, got a slow but non-infinite underload program around?
21:46:33 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source bf cat talk
21:46:36 <fungot> (optbot: I want to talk with you, because this guy here, just above me, asked me to do it.)S
21:46:37 <optbot> fungot: i'm too lazy to check this myself, and don't remember, what's pebble written in? i recall it was tcl, but might be just the fact it itself is basically tcl.
21:46:37 <fungot> optbot: are there any levels to download for me,
21:46:38 <fungot> optbot: what is maclisp? i realized it actually is
21:46:39 <fungot> optbot: my question is that? :) i've played with ruby a little.) an earlier version of cliki, but search is not finding the linkedlist removefirst() method. this is exemplified by ( ( opcode 1000) argument)
21:46:40 <optbot> fungot: There are a bunch of BF compilers that compile BF into C.
21:46:40 <fungot> optbot: the particular problem is that it?
21:46:40 <optbot> fungot: its so good :O
21:46:49 <fizzie> As far as BrainFuck programs go, one of the shorter rot13s was pretty slow.
21:47:03 <fizzie> I don't know very many Underload programs, and they rarely seem to terminate.
21:47:15 <fizzie> Actually the 99 bottles of beer program is pretty slow.
21:47:25 <fizzie> 'bf' is an empty program, it's been there for a while.
21:48:26 <fizzie> ^def bf ul Sorry, ^bf is just a builtin.
21:48:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm seems the underload interpreter don't like newlines
21:48:50 <fizzie> Yes, I just "tr \n *"d the program or something.
21:48:59 <fizzie> It interprets newline as "end of program".
21:49:35 <ehird> all non-command chars are invalid in underload
21:49:37 <ehird> including whitespace.
21:49:41 <ehird> if you want to do multiple lines
21:49:47 <fizzie> ehird: He means newlines inside ().
21:50:00 <fizzie> ehird: The standalone interpreter reads just a single line and assumes that's the whole program.
21:50:01 <AnMaster> yes I meant http://koti.mbnet.fi/~yiap/programs/underload/99.ul
21:50:27 <fizzie> Well, that one shouldn't happen.
21:50:34 <fizzie> I've successfully ran it before.
21:50:59 <ehird> GregorR: can you make a webservicey thing out of that color matcher? like, make it output text/plain, with two space seperated values that go together
21:51:11 <ehird> totally random that go together
21:51:15 <ehird> because i would use that in annoying ways
21:51:17 <ehird> and it would be fun.
21:51:28 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/oMNnth53.html
21:52:53 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
21:53:17 <ehird> AnMaster: why don't you bookmark that page?
21:53:27 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/bef$ time (tr '\n' + < 99.ul; echo) | ~/inst/cfunge/cfunge/build/cfunge underload.b98 > /dev/null
21:53:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Or use Firefox 3 and type 'fungot' to get straight to it.
21:53:35 <fungot> ehird: i wonder whether anyone would consider looking at the history, though). :) i'm trying to
21:53:53 <fizzie> That 99.ul was the original.
21:54:03 <ehird> fizzie: eris? How unoriginal, man.
21:54:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, I just wgeted http://zem.fi/~fis/underload.b98.txt and tested with that
21:55:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, I did tr -d '\n' which just removes the newline, instead of replacing it with a +
21:55:53 <fizzie> ehird: I used to have a different naming scheme, but that one ran out of extensibility.
21:56:21 <ehird> fizzie: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1178
21:56:49 <ehird> [[ Computers also have to be able to distinguish between themselves.
21:56:50 <ehird> Thus, when sending mail to a colleague at another computer, you might
21:56:50 <ehird> use the command "mail libes@goon".]]
21:56:53 <ehird> It'd help if it were a little more relevant.
21:56:57 <fizzie> Fortunately I won't be running out of mythological characters any time soon.
21:57:17 <fizzie> I've got iris, eris, tartarus, thalia, antheia, dionysus, nyx, momus, charon, styx and hermes here now.
21:57:31 <ehird> fizzie: iris herpes?
21:58:28 <AnMaster> <fizzie> ehird: I used to have a different naming scheme, but that one ran out of extensibility. <-- naming scheme for what?
21:58:33 <ehird> AnMaster: computers.
21:58:46 <ehird> (From Look Around You, series 2.)
21:58:48 <AnMaster> oh I just think of random names
21:58:52 <ehird> (Although series 1 is better.)
21:59:04 <ehird> For the uninitiated:
21:59:22 <ehird> It does not appear to be on the tube of you.
21:59:24 <AnMaster> I have tux (highly unoriginal) and phoenix (not very original, but fitting for the computer, since it was rescued from being recycled)
21:59:29 <ehird> Stupid copyright, and it's copyright.
21:59:47 <AnMaster> other look like: openbsd.router.lan
22:00:48 <AnMaster> ehird, also isn't "bournemouth" a city? (with upper case B of course)
22:01:06 <ehird> Haha, I'm asking about stuff in #swig (Semantic Web Interest Group) and getting typo-filled responses from Tim Berners-Lee:
22:01:11 <ehird> <timbl> ehird, it was never really agree on -- it was sort fo experimentl.
22:01:24 <ehird> hppt:\www.gogel.cmo
22:01:58 <ehird> True story: In primary school we were getting a highly educational (~) lesson about HOW TO USE THE INTERWEBS
22:02:03 <ehird> and the teacher put in
22:02:09 <ehird> htp:\\www.google.com
22:02:13 <ehird> (To my memory. Something like that.)
22:02:20 <ehird> The error page came up and she said it was... something like
22:02:26 <ehird> "the computer is having trouble finding it so we have to wait"
22:02:41 <ehird> So i piped up and told her she'd typed it wrong and she sternly shouted at me for questioning a teacher. :-D
22:02:59 <ehird> Then she carried on.
22:03:06 <ehird> I don't think she ever got the page to load.
22:03:53 <AnMaster> also why the heck would correcting the teacher be that bad? If you manages to do it in a discrete way.
22:04:37 <AnMaster> not "you are wrong" but more like "are you really sure .../could you explain the difference between [right way] and [wrong way]"
22:04:38 <ehird> Yeah, well, it wasn't a very good teacher.
22:07:07 <ehird> [[ In reality, names are just arbitrary
22:07:07 <ehird> tags. You cannot tell what a person does for a living, what
22:07:07 <ehird> their hobbies are, and so on.
22:07:18 <ehird> My name is Programmer.
22:07:22 <ehird> I take great offense to that.
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22:08:18 <AnMaster> ehird, where is that quote from
22:08:23 <ehird> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1178
22:08:27 <AnMaster> and what is that quote syntax. It is quite odd
22:08:37 <ehird> I've used it for ages.
22:08:43 <ehird> [[]] is a blockquote.
22:08:52 <AnMaster> ehird, in what markup language?
22:08:56 <ehird> Because I'm quoting things more than usual? :P
22:08:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Adhocehirdup.
22:09:24 <ehird> I mean, the alternative is something like:
22:09:30 <ehird> " By now you may be saying to yourself, "This is all very
22:09:31 <ehird> silly...people who have to know how to spell a name will learn
22:09:31 <ehird> it and that's that." While it is true that some people will
22:09:31 <ehird> learn the spelling, it will eventually cause problems
22:09:36 <ehird> which looks silly due to the extra indent cruft
22:09:54 <AnMaster> ehird, the indent isn't aligned on your original paste either
22:09:59 <AnMaster> too few spaces on the first line
22:10:32 <ehird> Yeah, because I copied from the middle of a line onwards.
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22:13:19 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: my initial idea was a deque, someone in here said it could be done with just a queue
22:13:35 <fizzie> That's not an integer.
22:13:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, apart from that one I can't see any obviously slow place in cfunge. Some, like hash library is kind of slow, but I tested various other hash libraries and hash functions and they aren't faster really (about same speed).
22:14:35 <ehird> was fizzie having speed problems with cfunge?
22:14:39 <ehird> Oh the hilarious irony
22:14:58 <AnMaster> I was just trying to make it even faster
22:15:06 <fizzie> Not really, I think this is more of a case of spontaneous combust^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hoptimization,
22:15:26 <ehird> fizzie: I'm surprised AnMaster ever writes anything other than an optimization..
22:15:30 <AnMaster> possibly someone could develop a better hash function, but I'm certainly not skilled enough to do that, I tested several (crc, one-at-a-time, murmur and several more)
22:15:42 <AnMaster> ehird, what about efunge? I'm still working on it
22:15:50 <AnMaster> and I don't plan to make it fast
22:15:56 <AnMaster> it will be a lot more feature rich instead
22:15:58 <ehird> I meant regarding cfunge.
22:16:21 <AnMaster> well cfunge is meant to be fast. Just compare with RC/Funge. Ask fizzie about which he thinks is best
22:16:31 <ehird> fungespace[hash([x,y])] right?
22:16:57 <ehird> It "sounds" slower, but I think fungespace[x][y] (where fungespace[x] is allocated only when first used) might actually be faster, due to never involvinga hash function
22:16:57 <AnMaster> ehird, basically, except I use a hash library for it. So it is ght_lookup
22:17:28 <fizzie> There's a lot of fungespace storage variants one could try; I hoped to experiment a bit along those lines some day.
22:17:55 <AnMaster> ehird, well I will, however x and y need to be sparse, since I need to be able to store sparsly within signed 2^64 for both x and y
22:18:06 <AnMaster> but yes you mean a hash library for each
22:18:23 <AnMaster> y then x, or x then y I wonder
22:18:40 <fizzie> I think GLfunge had some sort of "fungespace in the x, y \in [0, 1023] range is stored in a static block, since that's what is asked for most often" opti- or pessimization; never benchmarked it, since I got kind-of sidetracked.
22:18:49 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd go for y then x.
22:18:59 <ehird> Funge programs are a lot taller than they are wide.
22:19:03 <ehird> So yeah, y then x.
22:19:08 <ehird> Would seem reasonable.
22:19:30 <AnMaster> someone should try using sqlite as backend :D
22:19:59 <AnMaster> (it is fast for what it is actually meant for)
22:20:09 <fizzie> A fungot-optimized interpreter could cheat a lot for funge-space storage, since the usage is quite structured. Instruction fetches are one thing, but all of the g/p action occurs in few well-defined places.
22:20:10 <fungot> fizzie: i take it? :) as well, but it will only add numbers up to 30
22:20:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, hah, well I want to be generic
22:20:32 <ehird> as far as I can tell the only non-test befunge program regularly run is fungot
22:20:32 <fungot> ehird: the video of him at mit was priceless. fnord was soegaard's idea. must be that
22:22:34 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway one major issue is that by definition funge is heavy on the funge space
22:22:36 <fizzie> Paul Graham, I think. The conversation is a bit muddled around that point.
22:22:52 <ehird> fizzie: same person :p
22:22:53 <AnMaster> I mean the hash function got called 800 000 times for a 10 second fungot run
22:22:53 <fungot> AnMaster: it might do fnord by mistake ( extra " 0" and ( down-from n ( 0)
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22:23:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Make it record the maximum fungespace min/max bounds it acceesses.
22:23:35 <ehird> fizzie's idea of a large region being static sounds like a good one.
22:23:42 <ehird> It seems it'd speed up most programs immensely.
22:23:52 <AnMaster> ehird, well hm have you tried?
22:24:06 <ehird> He didn't benchmark it but he did implement it.
22:24:15 <ehird> AnMaster: I assume your fungespace access function is inlined?
22:24:22 <ehird> (Well, it sure better be.)
22:24:47 <AnMaster> ehird, the compiler should do that yes, but I was using a -fno-inline build to get correct count for profiling
22:25:04 <AnMaster> if everything is inlined the gprof data is mostly useless
22:25:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, my suggestion is, do some bounds profiling, then make a pretty-large static array and then in your fungespace access,
22:25:26 <ehird> just check if they're in the bounds and use the static array for it
22:25:30 <ehird> otherwise do the hashing junk
22:26:25 <AnMaster> lets see how much memory if we go with fizzie' example values 8 * 1023 * 1023... about 8176 kb
22:26:40 <ehird> AnMaster: memory is cheap..
22:26:54 <ehird> I have a feeling this will speed up most programs a lot - no hashing, nothing, just a simple [x][y] access
22:27:10 <ehird> so I think the memory used is pretty insignificant for the most part
22:27:12 <AnMaster> ehird, it is about as much memory as cfunge use at most during mycology on a 32-bit build
22:27:16 <ehird> AnMaster: i'd do profiling, though
22:27:28 <ehird> see the max and minimum bounds that fungot, mycology accses
22:27:29 <fungot> ehird: sarahbot later tell sarahbot goodnight.
22:27:32 <AnMaster> anyway I was just checking if the memory usage was sane
22:27:34 <ehird> pick a reasonable value in those
22:27:44 <fizzie> Power of two bounds are nice for the (x & ~0x3ff != 0) style bounds-checking.
22:27:52 <AnMaster> I mean considering it is 2D it grows quite quickly
22:27:55 <ehird> AnMaster: You will note that I am helping you with optimizations.
22:27:59 <ehird> The world will now end
22:28:09 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, I have been wondering about that too
22:28:36 <AnMaster> presumably you have some nasty idea behind it. And this is really furthering what you want
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22:28:50 <fizzie> As far as fungot is concerned, the parts of funge-space it's interested in are the actual program (instruction fetches) and rows 0..10 for data storage. But that's very fungot-specific.
22:28:51 <fungot> fizzie: i think it's a good virtual machine.
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22:29:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, and well I want good performance for mycology and life.bf too at least
22:29:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, I'm subtly nudging you towards an optimization that will actually permanently corrupt your computer's memory.
22:31:58 <AnMaster> anyway a 32-bit funge is much faster, since it means smaller data to calculate hashes on, better cache locality (at least on this sempron with a small (128 kb) cache)
22:32:14 <ehird> So why are you running it at 64-bit?
22:32:16 <ehird> Or am I misunderstanding :P
22:32:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not here, but I do support 64-bit funge
22:32:37 <ehird> If you do the static thing, less hash calculations
22:32:53 <ehird> AnMaster: do you have a probing hash or a linked list hash?
22:33:10 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc it is linked list.
22:33:23 <ehird> I have a feeling probing might be faster, foo++, arr[foo] "seems" faster than foo = foo->next, foo
22:33:32 <ehird> (with foo = arr[hash] at the start ofc.)
22:34:15 <AnMaster> ehird, each entry seems to have a linked list associated with it yeah
22:34:33 <ehird> I'd reccomend the static thing, and the probe thing, in that order.
22:34:41 <ehird> (The probe will be largely irrelevant with the static, I think.)
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22:35:16 <fizzie> As far as probing is considered, just linear probing might not be the best bet; it usually isn't.
22:35:25 <AnMaster> which type of probing, wikipedia mentions linear probing and quadratic probing
22:35:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, according to fizzie, quadratic probing :p
22:35:42 <ehird> I did quadratic probing
22:35:45 <ehird> when I made my hashtable
22:35:48 <AnMaster> also I seen some hash tables that use a second hash table in each bucked
22:36:11 <ehird> but yeah go for quadratic probing
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22:37:02 <fizzie> I did double hashing (read: the probe increment computed from a second hashing function) for my closed hash table; it did a bit better than quadratic probing, but I never benchmarked whether that advantage was eaten by the hashing overhead.
22:37:16 <ehird> fizzie: I'd say the overhead is more there, yes
22:37:20 <ehird> I'd definitely go for quadratic.
22:37:28 <ehird> AnMaster: and that should only take like 5 minutes to add
22:37:35 <fizzie> It's not very possible to say anything for certain; depends on the load factor and all.
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22:42:03 <AnMaster> ehird, http://rafb.net/p/oI6jge96.html
22:42:09 <AnMaster> not sure if you/me missed anything
22:42:29 <ehird> [21:36] ehird: but yeah go for quadratic probing
22:42:30 <ehird> [21:36] ehird: then static :-P
22:42:33 <ehird> fizzie: I did double hashing (read: the probe increment computed from a second hashing function) for my closed hash table; it did a bit better than quadratic probing, but I never benchmarked whether that advantage was eaten by the hashing overhead.
22:42:34 <ehird> [21:37] ehird: fizzie: I'd say the overhead is more there, yes
22:42:34 <ehird> [21:37] ehird: I'd definitely go for quadratic.
22:42:36 <ehird> [21:37] ehird: AnMaster: and that should only take like 5 minutes to add
22:42:38 <ehird> [21:37] fizzie: It's not very possible to say anything for certain; depends on the load factor and all.
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22:44:18 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the other stuff I mentioned?
22:44:41 <fizzie> Heh, that first pasted line (without timestamping) was fun.
22:44:46 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_addressing this is just probing
22:44:56 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuckoo_hashing is hmm.
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22:45:59 <ehird> I'd just do linear probing and see the speedup, then refine
22:46:59 <fizzie> With linear probing you probably want to keep the table load factor within some sensible values. I understand it gets slow fast when the table is full enough, even with a good hash function.
22:49:13 <fizzie> Well, obviously with quadratic probing too, except with a different definition for "sensible".
22:49:35 <ehird> fizzie: Still, the point is, if there IS a speedup, you can continue
22:50:02 <AnMaster> ehird, that would probably depend on the funge program
22:50:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Less talking, more coding, I say :-P
22:50:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well I'm all for writing roadmaps and design plans before I start coding :P
22:50:46 <AnMaster> and thinking things through properly
22:50:48 <ehird> AnMaster: In the time we've talked you could have profiled the quadratic probing approach.
22:51:10 <ehird> And have actual results instead of the "I think" and "perhaps" we're feedbacking...
22:51:14 <AnMaster> ehird, not so easy with the current hash library. And remember it is C, not python or such
22:51:28 <AnMaster> and I will start coding on it tomorrow I said
22:51:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Here I remember you bragging about how abstracted your fungespace was?
22:51:50 <ehird> It's a 5 minute change to any hashtable library i've ever seen
22:52:09 <AnMaster> ehird, it is just that the internals of the hash library isn't that easy. But replacing with another hash library would be quick
22:52:14 <fizzie> Incidentally, I tried asking the bot what he thinks of the whole idea:
22:52:16 <fizzie> 23:51:16 <fizzie> fungot: What do you suggest?
22:52:16 <fizzie> 23:51:16 <fungot> fizzie: imho it is ugly.
22:52:16 <fizzie> 23:51:27 <fizzie> fungot: what.
22:52:19 <fizzie> 23:51:27 <fungot> fizzie: and smells good? :)
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23:02:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Link to the cfunge head as some sort of archive?
23:02:30 <ehird> Gonna write a proby thingy.
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23:04:13 <AnMaster> http://bzr.kuonet.org/cfunge/trunk/files
23:04:20 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc there was some export function there
23:04:39 <ehird> Not that I can see.
23:04:42 <AnMaster> if not I can upload a tarball, but I'm out for the evening
23:04:56 <ehird> I'll just install bzr.
23:05:12 <ehird> AnMaster: 1.6.1 new enough?
23:05:38 <AnMaster> Omploaded 'cfunge_r460.tar.bz2' to http://omploader.org/vdmpl
23:06:12 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
23:08:16 <ehird> This hash table is long and ugly.
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23:13:01 <AnMaster> ehird, well it is easy to replace, but it's speed is quite ok
23:13:11 <AnMaster> I checked with several other ones
23:13:12 <ehird> AnMaster: I thought you were afk.
23:16:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Do you know what the oldest/newest stuff is for...?
23:16:12 <ehird> Considering trashing it.
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23:35:10 <ehird> just the fields - ght_hash_entry_t *p_oldest; /* The entry inserted the earliest. */
23:35:10 <ehird> ght_hash_entry_t *p_newest; /* The entry inserted the latest. */
23:35:15 <AnMaster> and after this time I'm heading to bed
23:35:16 <ehird> i don't actually know why you would need that
23:35:19 <oerjan> kipple, now that's been a while
23:35:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it is used for an alternative to move often accessed entries to the start or something like that
23:35:57 <AnMaster> it doesn't either speed up or speed down in my tests
23:36:23 <ehird> oerjan: last kipple message:
23:36:26 <ehird> 06.08.12:15:17:38 <kipple> poor egobot. He probably listened too much to GregorR's music
23:36:35 <ehird> AnMaster: i'll leave it in
23:36:45 <AnMaster> ehird, remember I didn't write the library, just found it to have quite good performance when comparing with other hash libraries.
23:36:56 <AnMaster> and afterwards I special cased the code
23:37:54 <AnMaster> and removing other stuff I don't need
23:38:04 <AnMaster> (those things certainly helped quite a bit)
23:38:27 <AnMaster> ehird, the mempool I can answer on, but it should be fairly simple, and easy to understand
23:38:30 <oerjan> egobot's, now that's been a while
23:38:39 <ehird> AnMaster: well, if you want to stay a bit i probably have more questions ;-)
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00:06:18 <fizzie> fungot quoted me some egobot too: 23:54:52 <fungot> fizzie: 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf8,16,32,64 glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda
00:06:30 <fizzie> That's a nice list for me to implement in Befunge.
00:07:28 <fizzie> No such thing as input, there.
00:07:39 <fizzie> Although I guess I could quite easily push it on stack at the beginning.
00:09:34 <GregorR> http://codu.org/colormatch/ // IT RULEZES
00:15:39 <fungot> hurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrurrur ...too much output!
00:15:47 <GregorR> oerjan: go luuk its bettar! :P
00:16:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hmm.
00:16:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | well I'm anti tango if it doesn't build on x86_64.
00:16:40 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I hard-coded Mario and Zelda themes.
00:20:28 <GregorR> HI EHIRD GO 2 COLOR MATCHER
00:20:34 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source bf cat talk test
00:20:40 <ehird> GregorR: i did, as i said, add a random button to color 1
00:20:42 <ehird> then write a webservice
00:20:48 <ehird> that gives you a random color, and a random matching colour
00:20:53 <ehird> (text/plain, just seperate them by a space)
00:21:19 <ehird> i promise i won't abuse your server too much
00:21:21 <oerjan> ^def talk ul (opt)(bot: I want to talk with you, because this guy here, just above me, asked me to do it.)SS
00:21:21 <GregorR> That would involve implementing a neural network yet again, in $YOUR_FAVORITE_WEB_LANGUAGE :P
00:21:37 <oerjan> ^def talk ul (opt)(bot: I want to talk with you, because this guy here, just above me, asked me to do it.)~SS
00:21:40 <ehird> GregorR: ah, it's in javascript?
00:21:54 <ehird> GregorR: i could just nab that then
00:22:05 <ehird> there IS server side javascript
00:22:24 <ehird> GregorR: anyway, add the "random color 1" idea
00:22:27 <GregorR> ehird: I could make a JavaScript library you can include remotely that'll make your page a random color :P
00:22:29 <ehird> probably make it generate a random matching color at the same time
00:22:45 <ehird> GregorR: then make it generate a colour scheme of length N :-P
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00:23:14 <GregorR> ehird: That's of complexity n factorial :P
00:23:23 <ehird> GregorR: and so is your butt, but do i care?
00:23:38 <ehird> what is the maximum complexity yoru script could reasonably do?
00:24:47 <fungot> ab5tract: your claim is quite logical. i'll think you're a bit dyslexic? i mean, it might not be
00:25:15 <ab5tract> you and me sure got a thing going, don't we fungot
00:25:15 <fungot> ab5tract: and it's self-modifying techniques i consider pretty original i think
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00:39:18 <ehird> GregorR: Foo bar baz.
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00:42:50 <oerjan> GregorR: it would be nice if you showed the actual colors, not just their rgb values
00:43:53 <GregorR> oerjan: Uhhh, it DOES show their actual colors.
00:44:16 <oerjan> IE 7, actually, which some here may consider worse :D
00:44:39 <GregorR> Doesn't work in Konqueror it turns out.
00:44:43 <GregorR> I'm making some fixes anyway.
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00:47:40 <GregorR> One of those bloated, useless JS libs?
00:47:51 <ehird> it's tiny, and always has been the tiniest
00:48:10 <ehird> also, it's not useless, it's quite functional (not as in the usable sense, but in the paradigm sense)
00:48:18 <ehird> sure, the site is all corporate but that's recent crap
00:48:29 <ehird> also, lets you use CSS3/XPath selectors
00:48:41 <ehird> it really is nice.
00:49:26 <ehird> GregorR: also, the main developer is the main javascripty guy at mozilla
00:50:07 <ehird> (hmm, "JavaScript Evangelist" apparently... whatever the fuck that means...)
00:52:34 <GregorR> Apparently using innerHTML on a table only works in Firefox >_>
00:53:02 <ehird> innerHTML barely ever works :p
00:54:44 <ehird> ab5tract = GregorR;
00:54:48 <ehird> ouch, that must be painful
00:55:32 <ehird> ab5tract: as far as i know, js has no immutable variables
00:56:06 <ab5tract> then i don't fit the paradigm x)
00:58:50 <GregorR> ehird: It can now generate two colors. I also put it in a .js file so it can be included remotely.
00:59:07 <ehird> ab5tract: Not. GregorR: You are a baby. You have been eaten by a gruebaby
00:59:17 <ehird> In future, please baby.
01:00:21 <ehird> GregorR: where does it get the data?
01:00:40 <ehird> var masterNN = new NeuralNet(3, [18, 4, 1], [-412.6361755614, 278.9842142232, -20.5600215938, -39.8960037087, 154.9130185798, -159.9429904879, 729.2216090158, 982.9458995752, 143.5533742592, 25.5308027322, -206.5386629423, -6.8355913173, -283.1128834544, 369.9597631534, 412.1520971465, 100.1539743296, -563.2459335712, -191.8307140707, -264.4321767135, 374.5932132645, 49.1988457295, 213.6956148766, -61.9765634350, 190.5191290147, 23.3574377357, 668.4313751847,
01:00:51 <GregorR> Oh, yeah, it just has the "correct" neural net inbuilt.
01:00:52 <ehird> GregorR: pretty small neural net
01:01:24 <ehird> GregorR: So if it was generating an N-length colour scheme, what is the max reasonable size of n?
01:01:41 <GregorR> Actually, I'll code up that function.
01:02:03 <ehird> GregorR: I'm thinking, though, that it'll need to be more complex for my idea (which would also involve e.g. picking text colours)
01:02:20 <ehird> because... colours that go together for the current model don't work as foreground/background
01:02:36 <GregorR> ehird: Foreground needs to be higher saturation than background probably.
01:03:13 <GregorR> ehird: But it provides you the saturation in the complicated internal format it uses. It gives you [R, G, B, H, S, V, L, a, b]
01:03:32 <ehird> Yeah, but I want the saturation to be determined by the neural net :D
01:05:29 <ehird> GregorR: Just like your face pepper salt.
01:05:36 <ab5tract> heh. GregorR nice work there man
01:07:29 <ab5tract> it could take the match and set the more saturated color to the foreground text
01:07:44 <ehird> but the difference isn't enough
01:08:24 <ab5tract> hmmm... collect the sequence of all the matches then pick the most saturated then?
01:08:45 <ab5tract> through the neural network of course
01:09:13 <ab5tract> most saturated * aesthetic_ratio
01:17:21 <GregorR> ehird: OK, look at it now :)
01:18:04 <GregorR> Unfortunately, I don't know how to change a page's link colors from JS ...
01:20:53 <oklopol> well, i slept all day, back to sleep again, have all the fun your conscience allows you to have ->
01:22:05 <oklopol> GregorR: and how is that O(n!)? it's O(n^2) it could be O(n^2) if there are enough matching colors
01:22:26 <GregorR> oklopol: For every n it generates it needs to test it against ALL of the previous ns.
01:22:47 <GregorR> Oh, I guess that's n^2 isn't it :P
01:22:51 <oklopol> GregorR: yes, but that sounds more like n^2
01:23:02 <oklopol> but it can get n!, if you need to backtrack a lot
01:23:13 <GregorR> It's 1+2+3+4+...+n, not 1*2*3*4*...*n :P
01:23:52 <oklopol> if the best approximation of your neural net is an n-ary constraint, whatever i may mean by this; but i doubt it is
01:24:12 <oklopol> well if you never backtrack and just fail, then it's n^2 ofc
01:25:43 <oklopol> so i guess you just failed; then again, i guess it's better to fail at ordos than by sleeping through a perfectly good reading day
01:25:58 <oklopol> i thought i'd finish alllll my books today :<
01:26:35 <oklopol> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
01:26:40 <oklopol> i think i'll say one more random thing
01:26:46 <oklopol> but i need to think a bit first.
01:26:48 <oerjan> ah, nothing to make you sleep long like having big plans for what you'll do when you wake up
01:27:35 <oklopol> that may be true, but usually those big plans prevent me from falling asleep, i'm fairly paranoid about my readings
01:27:43 <GregorR> ehird: I put a colorscheme generator on the current version.
01:28:05 <oklopol> quick poll: what's your favorite page number?
01:28:39 <ab5tract> do any of the bots on the channel implement 'message'?
01:28:44 <oklopol> so us mortals can look too
01:28:46 <oerjan> so it can be transcendental? :D
01:28:49 <GregorR> oklopol: http://codu.org/checkmatch/
01:29:00 <GregorR> ab5tract: Oh, didn't notice X-P
01:29:02 <oklopol> you can store programs in fungot ofc...
01:29:03 <fungot> oklopol: i got no worse one in some printed book just recently... let me try to reproduce this problem on freenode. i rarely do any public performances or play in bands, i use it
01:29:06 <GregorR> oklopol: Sorry, had linked it yesterday :P
01:29:15 <oklopol> GregorR: i know, just saw it in the logs
01:29:32 <oerjan> ab5tract: i think there is a MemoServ or something
01:29:33 <GregorR> http://codu.org/colormatch/
01:29:58 <oklopol> hehe, i read that as "color".
01:30:01 <ab5tract> i was asking for GregorR's sake so he can leave not for ehird
01:30:18 <oerjan> it doesn't have to be in the channel, i think, since it's a freenode service
01:30:50 <oerjan> though i've never used it
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01:31:47 <fungot> ab5tract: lexical scoping works this way, one can do with the fact the fixed-point is taken directly from english, and " make out with her.
01:31:53 <oklopol> GregorR: some of the schemes are quite ugly, and it's no surprise, as it can, i assume, make any of the generated colors a background color, and i think people have even stronger heuristics on that than just "what go together"
01:32:28 <GregorR> oklopol: It filters a bit, but I can't find a smart filter.
01:32:35 <oklopol> "what looks good on what" is stronger than "what colors are friends"
01:32:36 <oerjan> hm... that should be doable in bf
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01:33:45 <ab5tract> GregorR: what model are you using to filter right now?
01:34:08 <oklopol> did you implement the neural network thing yourself, GregorR?
01:34:27 <GregorR> ab5tract: V (of HSV) must be below 0.25 for the background and above 0.75 for the foreground.
01:34:29 <oklopol> ab5tract: no the php's i think, although this may just be a guess.
01:34:38 <oklopol> but it doesn't matter because it was a joke anyway.
01:34:39 <oerjan> ^def greet bf ++++++++[->++++<]>[->++>+++>+<<<]>++++++++.>+++++++++.>.,[.,]
01:35:06 <ab5tract> oerjan: is that my name in bf?
01:35:42 <oerjan> made it up on the spot so it may not be optimal
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01:36:45 <oklopol> bf doesn't have enough features for abstraction to create your nick
01:36:50 <GregorR> OH, except that was broken!
01:37:10 <oklopol> yay the world is getting better
01:37:26 <oklopol> everytime a bug is fixed an angel dies!
01:37:50 <ab5tract> GregorR: is there any way to collect the whole sequence of matches for a given color, then sort according to saturation, then multiply the top few by their respective aesthetic ratios
01:37:53 <oklopol> i'm a bit tired see you in the morning ->
01:37:58 <ab5tract> and then take the top performer of that'
01:38:32 <GregorR> ab5tract: Hmmm ... yes. But Idowanna :P
01:38:41 <GregorR> Reload the page, I improved the colorscheme generator substantially.
01:39:11 <GregorR> Oops, and left debug code in X_X
01:39:49 <GregorR> Now if I can just figure out how to change link colors from JS ...
01:41:36 <GregorR> And how does JQuery do it? X-P
01:41:46 <GregorR> (Part of why I don't use one of those is I don't want to learn (effectively) another language)
01:42:23 <ab5tract> it'll probably be the last js "language" you learn.
01:43:32 <ab5tract> it finds every 'a' tag (with a particular class/id or just all of them) and then applies your css change to it
01:43:52 <GregorR> Blech, seriously? I can do that, but ... blech.
01:44:25 <ab5tract> in jquery it is maybe two lines
01:45:21 <ab5tract> GregorR: one last feature request - text boxes with the current scheme's color value
01:45:22 <GregorR> It's two lines in normal JS :P
01:47:09 <oerjan> ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>[->++++++>+++>+++++++<<<]>+.+.>+++++.>++++.--.<<-.++.>>++.
01:47:40 <Corun_> I see bf which prints a string
01:48:00 <Corun_> Oh, fungot's outputting it
01:48:01 <fungot> Corun_: forgot what it was....
01:48:34 * Corun_ goes to find his bf string print minimizer
01:48:36 <ab5tract> oerjan: thank you very much :D
01:51:15 <ab5tract> oerjan: my name looks pretty cool in my purposefully obtuse befunge http://gist.github.com/15658 (first file in the gist)
01:51:21 <oerjan> ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>[->++++++>+++++++>+++<<<]>+.+.>>+++++.<++++.--.<-.++.>++.
01:51:40 <oerjan> i think that was 1 char less
01:51:59 <ab5tract> i haven't gotten around to properly obtusing the befunge boobies on that gist yet
01:52:11 <ab5tract> but it would be great to have some brainfuck boobies
01:52:17 <oerjan> ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>[->++++++>+++>+++++++<<<]>+.+.>+++++.>++++.--.<<-.++.>>++.
01:55:47 <Corun_> Can't find my ol' bf string program generator
01:55:54 * Corun_ goes searching in backups
01:56:26 <oerjan> Corun_: there's one in the esoteric file archive
01:56:42 <oerjan> although i did this one by hand
01:56:52 <Corun_> Could be mine, I guess
01:57:39 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/brainfuck/util/textgen.java
01:57:59 <oerjan> if you have another you might want to submit it
01:58:17 <ab5tract> yeah i'd much rather see it in haskell
02:00:26 <ab5tract> oerjan: you scope those ( o Y o )'s ?
02:01:38 <oerjan> what do you mean "scope"?
02:02:07 <oerjan> ah you're going all greek on me
02:02:48 <ab5tract> i think it should be the hello world of esolangs, but that's probably because i thought it up
02:03:06 <oerjan> oh well, in that case:
02:04:06 <ab5tract> GregorR: thanks for adding the scheme values to the colormatch page
02:05:14 <oerjan> it's on two of the bots here
02:05:36 <oerjan> because it's very easy to implement, i think
02:05:47 <oerjan> but still more readable than bf
02:06:17 <oerjan> it has even been implemented _in_ bf
02:06:43 <GregorR> oerjan: Could you reload the page in IE7? It might actually work maybe.
02:07:10 <oerjan> GregorR: i've already looked at it, it seemed to work
02:07:21 <Corun_> All I found was this...
02:07:21 <Corun_> http://obfuscated.co.uk/files/bfrealprog.txt
02:07:39 <Corun_> And my haskell implementation was... Well
02:07:52 <Corun_> I'd just learnt haskell like a few weeks before
02:07:59 <oerjan> fungot ran that version before but it was too slow (especially since fungot uses a bf implementation in befunge), so fizzie wrote an underload interpreter in befunge for it
02:07:59 <fungot> oerjan: fnord oklopol: i meant use part of the expression of state machines. foof-loop can express what foof-loop can't, namely recursive processes.
02:09:52 <oerjan> GregorR: everything seems to work _except_ picking color 2 manually
02:10:43 <GregorR> Oh, that's actually borken everywhere :P
02:11:17 * Corun_ is annoyed that he's lost that
02:12:46 <oerjan> GregorR: actually writing in the first doesn't quite work either, although picking does, and curiously writing into the first and _then_ selecting the first pick putton causes it to pick up what i wrote in _including_ for the second color :D
02:13:32 <oerjan> oh and the pick button for the second color does cause the rgb to be written in, just not actually used
02:14:04 <GregorR> Hrm, that last one must be IE-specific .
02:14:10 <GregorR> (Also, reload, I just uploaded one fix)
02:14:26 <GregorR> Oh wait, that last fix may have fixed that too.
02:15:17 <oerjan> oh and the second pick menu doesn't close automatically on selection, though the first one does
02:16:57 <oerjan> oh, now things work better except that pressing return doesn't cause written in values to take, i have to actually change focus with the mouse
02:17:30 <GregorR> Well, that's because it's onchange (AFAIK that's why anyway)
02:18:20 <oerjan> well it doesn't change just by writing in
02:20:24 <GregorR> That's because that's not how onchange works :P
02:20:32 <oerjan> that seems to be the only remaining flaw
02:20:49 <GregorR> I guess I could do onkeypress *shrugs*
02:20:57 <GregorR> It would run it more often than necessary, but *eh*
02:21:22 <oerjan> well selecting check match works. couldn't you make return do that?
02:21:47 <oerjan> even with focus in a text field
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02:24:02 <oerjan> eek that was a particularly horrible green/pink combination
02:25:07 <oerjan> i think those two colors must be the worst :D
02:25:42 <GregorR> Green + pink = instant barf.
02:25:45 <GregorR> Refresh, it updates on enter now.
02:26:36 <oerjan> i read somewhere that victorians considered green and orange to match
02:26:54 <oerjan> i haven't managed to get your NN to agree yet :D
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02:34:16 <oerjan> so apparently it accepts _some_ green/orange combinations
02:35:20 <oerjan> switching them causes it to no longer accept it
02:36:15 <oerjan> GregorR: your network decisions are not symmetric :/
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03:57:26 <oerjan> +ul (::a:aa::a)((^):a)~*^(~aS:^):^
03:57:26 <thutubot> ((((((^))))))(((((^)))))(((((^)))))(((^)))((^))((^))(^) ...a out of stack!
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04:26:22 <revcompgeek> what do you guys think of BRZRK? http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/BRZRK
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04:27:11 <revcompgeek> what do you guys think of BRZRK? (http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/BRZRK)
04:27:19 <revcompgeek> what do you guys think of BRZRK? (http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/BRZRK )
04:42:33 <GregorR> There are no vowels in UNIX :P
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04:49:13 <oerjan> it was here before the web
04:49:26 <oerjan> possibly even web -2.0
04:50:39 <psygnisfive> web 2.0 is all about the clean, simple, minimal interfaces and network applications and shit
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04:51:05 <psygnisfive> unix originated as time sharing shit? network applications.
04:51:06 <mbishop> unfortunately unix is no longer about being simple and minimal
04:51:41 <mbishop> once CAT had more functions than just concatenation, the unix ideal was dead :P
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05:17:11 <oerjan> or eons, dependently on how you count
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10:15:22 <Chase-san> With the PESOIX API how do you go back from it to the standard language you we're programming in, as I don't see a call to return from just printing everything (including the >[.>,]+- etc)
10:17:18 <Chase-san> even a rather round about way would be useful to know (I mean really its a esoteric language ;)
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13:04:08 <ehird> psygnisfive: btw, you're wrong re: unix
13:04:27 <ehird> the unix aesthetic was dead way before the end of the 70s
13:04:57 <ehird> GregorR: /colormatch/=404
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14:37:21 <AnMaster> seems like some aircraft is flying low over here
14:37:57 <ehird> AnMaster: They're dropping a bomb on you as part of their master plan to eradicate funge.
14:38:04 <ehird> Run. Don't look back. GO NOW!
14:38:30 * AnMaster has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
14:38:45 <ehird> He was really annoying but he didn't deserve to die D:
14:38:48 <ehird> (Most of the time.)
14:38:55 <ehird> ... hmm, sure is peaceful in here...
14:39:02 <ehird> I could get used to this.
14:39:20 * AnMaster (n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster) has joined #esoteric
14:39:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Hah. Imposter.
14:39:33 <ehird> You're the guy who dropped the bomb!
14:39:44 <AnMaster> no, the aircraft is still up there
14:39:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, thank you very much.
14:41:58 <ehird> http://www.zedshaw.com/blog/2008-10-28.html BREAKING NEWS: Zed Shaw shows elements of humanity.
14:42:48 <AnMaster> wtf sounds like there is a helicopter now too
14:43:00 <ehird> AnMaster: It's just the Funge Elimination Team.
14:43:05 <ehird> Relax, sit back. It'll be alright.
14:43:59 <AnMaster> ehird, nah my best guess is quite a lot more worrying actually... One of the countries high security prisons is located around 10 km or so from this town... maybe someone escaped
14:44:00 <ehird> http://arxiv.org/abs/0810.5056 Only the 53rd P != NP paper on arxiv today!
14:44:15 <ehird> AnMaster: You escaped, you were put in for crimes against fungemanity
14:50:42 <ehird> http://zephyrfalcon.org/weblog/arch_d7_2004_03_27.html#e536 python for commodore 64
15:05:39 <ehird> http://ccl.clozure.com/blog/?p=28
15:05:42 <ehird> Minimum donation...$500.
15:09:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Of course they will; BigCorps use Common Lisp.
15:09:23 <ehird> But they would get a lot more if they didn't ask for $500 or more, naturally.
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15:22:27 <ehird> http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_releases/beatles_unknown_hard_days_night_chord_mystery_solved_using_fourier_transform *g*
15:23:39 <fizzie> Are you having some sort of blog hour or what?
15:23:55 <ehird> fizzie: Not really.
15:24:13 <ehird> Reddit is just amusing me more than usually today :p
15:24:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Think I should write that quadratic probe stuff for cfunge now?
15:25:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well if you want. I was reading up on different probing models and such
15:25:49 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd go for cuckoo hashing ideally, though, really, the best thing to do would be the static array stuff :-P
15:26:08 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I think trying a static array would be good
15:26:28 <ehird> {x in (...) and y in (...), then foo[x][y]} has got to be a lot faster than {hash (x,y); look up in hash array, traverse list until key=(x,y), return value}
15:26:48 <AnMaster> for reference mycology is about 200 chars wide and 800 lines. fungot much less
15:26:49 <fungot> AnMaster: sweet hairy moses i hope it's worth the 7 though.)
15:26:56 <ehird> I'm obviously not very well versed with the cfunge code, though, so I probably couldn't do that
15:26:57 <AnMaster> fungot stores stuff in negative funge space iirc
15:26:58 <fungot> AnMaster: isometric has been updated: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/gambit/. what about ( for-each display what) ( newline)
15:27:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, but not much stuff.
15:27:14 <ehird> fizzie: how often does it access negative spaec?
15:27:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, where does it store all the data then?
15:27:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, I was just saying that i'll stick to other stuff :P
15:27:53 <fizzie> Well, the programs are stored in the positive space, from y=2000 downwards. But they are copied on line 8 before execution, anyway.
15:28:30 <fizzie> The one thing that really uses negative space a lot is the Underload interp, because the stack starts at x=0 (approximately) and grows to the left.
15:28:37 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and having all the entries being of a fixed size helps quite a bit I noted, malloc overhead was quite huge (which is worse than quite large, but also worse grammatically), so adopting the mempool system should be useful
15:28:57 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not sure a mempool is really always useful.
15:29:00 <AnMaster> the existing mempool system should be easy to change for a different object size
15:29:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well depends. I did profile it for the case I wrote it
15:29:30 <AnMaster> both in term of speed and memory usage
15:30:02 <fizzie> Apart from the Underload stack (and possibly program -- depends on the program) the only thing in negative space are those str: strings and the "is my conversation looping" things.
15:30:29 <ehird> fizzie: Well, underload stack is worth optimizing for.
15:30:45 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, i would make the array have [0] = minus something
15:30:48 <ehird> so you get a bit of minus space
15:31:19 <AnMaster> for mycology. memory usage: before mempool: 7.8 MB, after mempool: 6.5 MB; speed: slight speed up, not significant enough to be sure though
15:31:20 <fizzie> Underload could probably be somewhat optimized by optimizizing the Befunge code; it was quite proof-of-concept what I'm now using.
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15:31:30 <AnMaster> ehird, yes that sounds good for array
15:31:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, memory usage will shoot up for a static array.
15:31:58 <AnMaster> ehird, yes of course, but one issue before mempool was the malloc overhead
15:32:14 <AnMaster> and since static array will be one huge chunk you will only get overhead once
15:32:24 <AnMaster> or not at all, depending on how you implement it
15:32:25 <ehird> Hm. ais523 hasn't been here for two days. Meh.
15:33:09 <AnMaster> static array should be quite easy
15:33:50 <AnMaster> just wish my hands weren't freezing :/
15:35:12 <AnMaster> now what was it you said fizzie about testing "within static array bounds"?
15:35:28 <ehird> AnMaster: fizzie said a bitmask thingy
15:35:39 <ehird> also, start Eclipse and put your hands next to the computer.
15:35:42 <ehird> Should warm them up nicely.
15:35:44 <fizzie> "if (x & ~0x3ff)" does "if (x >= 0 && x < 1024)", basically.
15:36:26 <AnMaster> I actually use kate mostly when working on cfunge
15:36:32 <fizzie> The resident GCC person could probably tell how much of that kind of stuff GCC does automagically, when constant expressions and simple variable references are considered.
15:36:49 <AnMaster> well he isn't here, ehird said so
15:36:51 <ehird> ais523 doesn't actually know gcc
15:36:54 <ehird> he just learned it to write gcc-bf :-P
15:37:02 <ehird> I think pikhq may be a gccy-person.
15:37:35 <ehird> AnMaster: For full disclosure, I'm going to be editing cfunge with an editor I paid money for. You can reject my patches for dirty proprietaryism at your wish. :-P
15:37:44 <ehird> FUNGE_ATTR_FAST int ght_insert(ght_hash_table_t * restrict p_ht,
15:37:44 <ehird> fungeCell p_entry_data,
15:37:49 <ehird> isn't that arg meant to line up with the first...?
15:38:05 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it is. Probably something got renamed
15:38:21 <AnMaster> causing stuff to get misaligned
15:39:13 <AnMaster> should it be malloced block or truly static array hm.
15:39:22 <ehird> AnMaster: truly static
15:39:40 <AnMaster> ah yes, it could matter for speed actually
15:40:34 <AnMaster> hm the bitmask trick is nice but kind of messy for when you want negative funge space
15:40:46 <AnMaster> in fact bitmasks on signed numbers are messy
15:40:58 <ehird> Yeah, well, optimization is messy.
15:41:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Just don't have it be [-x]
15:41:13 <ehird> you're not going to access negative array indices, surely
15:41:28 <AnMaster> rather adding offset then checking
15:41:29 <ehird> so shift it up to the index you'll actually access
15:41:47 <AnMaster> and using non-offset for the hash for outer funge-space ;)
15:42:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Hm. I can get out of licensing my code as GPL3 by making it a dynamic library that's linked to, can't I? :-P~
15:43:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, how far into negative funge space does fungot go? (grammar fail)
15:43:04 <fungot> AnMaster: but use it as a simple evaluator" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord
15:43:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: y=-15 is the topmost point it touches, but as far as the X axis is considered, it depends completely on the Underload stack length.
15:43:49 <AnMaster> ehird, well for the hash library it is actually LGPL, since I didn't write it, but used other code. And that is documented.
15:44:04 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not a grammar fail, btw
15:44:21 <ehird> probably the most idiomatic thing you've said today :-P it's not very formal, though
15:44:46 <ehird> fizzie: funge stack length 10 = ?
15:45:07 <fizzie> If you're going to play around with the interpreter, I probably should write some Funge for fungot. There's at least the ignore-list, the HTTP client and more languages to implement.
15:45:07 <fungot> fizzie: the timestamp which i ignored and made my own brainfuck in it's place
15:45:24 <fizzie> Hmm, what about the Funge stack?
15:45:53 <oklopol> negative funge space? hmm prolly means exactly what i think it does.
15:45:56 <ehird> underload stack length 10 = how far in negative spae
15:45:57 <fizzie> oklopol: A bit late to be morning.
15:46:18 <oklopol> sure feels like morning after sleeping through 6 hours of lectures
15:47:01 <oklopol> (i did finish my books though)
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15:47:04 <fizzie> ehird: Well, the Underload stack is strings. So for (foo)(bar) the 'b' character would be in x=-8.
15:47:28 <AnMaster> hrrm I need to memset the array to be filled with space on startup
15:47:29 <ehird> fizzie: thing is... the underload stack is a good target for optimization
15:47:51 <ehird> fizzie: i think you should move it to positive space.
15:48:00 <ehird> {} are immutable in C, right? I never really used those literals.
15:48:26 <fizzie> It makes the stack underflow checks more complicated, though; currently there's just some 0`|s.
15:48:32 <AnMaster> ehird, well depends on what you mean with immutable
15:48:43 <ehird> AnMaster: can you change the shit in it at runtime ;-)
15:48:57 <ehird> fizzie: Yea, but the more negativespace in the static array the less positive space
15:49:02 <ehird> and I'd say positive space is way more common than negativespace
15:49:05 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on where you assign the {}. Also look at the macro in vector.h
15:49:19 <AnMaster> so yes you can stick variables into it
15:49:34 <AnMaster> unless you mean like code blocks
15:49:38 <ehird> you can't do foo[0] = 2
15:49:43 <ehird> as far as I recall
15:49:45 <fizzie> You can't do "foo = {1,2,3}" either.
15:49:47 <ehird> as i said, that is one part of c i never touched
15:49:52 <ehird> fizzie: yes, you can
15:50:00 <fizzie> That's not "foo = {1,2,3}".
15:50:07 <ehird> fizzie: i was omitting the type for brevity
15:50:10 <ehird> AnMaster: well then
15:50:22 <ehird> int staticfs[] = {{' ', ', ', ', ', ', ', ', ',...},...}
15:50:26 <ehird> it'll be a huge file fer sure...
15:50:34 <ehird> but less runtime overhead
15:50:47 <fizzie> I wouldn't be storing those spaces in it.
15:50:55 <fizzie> Runtime overhead at initialization is probably a non-issue.
15:51:00 <AnMaster> ehird, err I was writing the static bit, I thought you were doing the hash bit?
15:51:08 <ehird> AnMaster: right, right
15:51:10 <fizzie> While a megabyte of spaces in the binary is just... ugly.
15:51:11 <ehird> doesn't mean i can't talk ab-
15:51:15 <AnMaster> memset(&static_space, ' ', sizeof(static_space));
15:51:23 <ehird> ais523: I'm actually workign with AnMaster to optimize cfunge.
15:51:49 <ais523> hi ehird, are you still ehird?
15:52:02 <fizzie> It's the bizarro-ehird.
15:52:16 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, why use memset instead of a {} literal?
15:52:28 <ehird> it'd surely be faster using a literal, as nothing would happen at runtime
15:52:39 <fizzie> Er, you'd still be loading those spaces from the file.
15:52:47 <fizzie> It might well be faster to memset it instead of that.
15:52:47 <AnMaster> ehird, very simple, for a static array it would store the whole thing in binary and load it from disk
15:53:06 <AnMaster> so 1) what fizzie said 2) the code would be quite large
15:53:06 <fizzie> For another thing, if you change the dimensions of the array, you'd need to modify the initializer.
15:53:21 <ehird> fizzie: now that's just an argument to give c proper macros :)
15:53:46 <fizzie> But as far as memset(&static_space, ' ', sizeof(static_space)); goes, that sets all the bytes to 0x20.
15:53:56 <fizzie> I'm assuming your static_space cells are not byte-sized, though.
15:54:07 <ehird> static_space is a nested array
15:54:20 <ehird> it'd be faster without
15:54:26 <AnMaster> static fungeCell static_space[FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X * FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y];
15:54:34 <ehird> sorry, wasn't thinking
15:54:49 <fizzie> But you need to initialize it manually, not with memset.
15:55:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah right, don't want to set every char
15:56:29 <AnMaster> for (size_t i = 0; i < sizeof(static_space) / sizeof(fungeCell); i++)
15:56:54 <ehird> errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
15:57:02 <ehird> why not memset? oh, wait
15:57:05 <ehird> fungeCell can > char, right
15:57:21 <AnMaster> ehird, sizeof(fungeCell) == 4 or 8 bytes. Using char wouldn't work :/
15:57:40 <fizzie> Anyway, yes, the Underload stack could be moved to begin at whatever the maximum positive value in that static array is, for maximum cfungeyness.
15:57:56 <AnMaster> like all fingerprints would be 1 char for example, and then Mike Riley would surely have used all the printable ones already
15:58:41 <ehird> AnMaster: that would be great
15:59:02 <ehird> relevant to AnMaster, MikeRiley, and funge-108 (even though i dislike it, but whatever) -
15:59:12 <ehird> a response to the "but I can't keep a URI up forever!" -
15:59:23 <ehird> step 1. pick a domain or an email address that you owned on day X
15:59:34 <ehird> step 2. if X.dayofmonth == 0, chop off the day of month
15:59:43 <ehird> and chop off the day
15:59:47 <ehird> step 3. if X.month == jan, chop off month
15:59:58 <ehird> so "I owned foo@bar.com at jan 1 2008" = just 2008
16:00:14 <fizzie> You're missing "step 3b. if X.year == 1, chop off year".
16:00:15 <ehird> tag:EMAILORDOMAIN,OWNEDAT:ARB
16:00:39 <ehird> tag:mikerileys@email.com,2009,HorribleFingerprint5000
16:00:59 <AnMaster> oh and you are missing step 4 and 5
16:01:00 <ehird> is a persistent, permanent URI that doesn't depend on anything changing (you can't retroactively not have that email at that time unless you're in featherworld)
16:01:09 <ehird> AnMaster: tired meme is tired
16:01:22 <AnMaster> all your memes are belong to us
16:02:19 <ehird> it has to be noted that if you DO own a domain serving web content that you think you can reasonably keep up for a long while, you should use an http uri instead for the whole "put it in your browser and get docs" thing.
16:02:33 <ehird> Still good practice to put the year/month in there, though, in case you ever use the same name twice.
16:02:51 <ehird> (e.g. http://rcfunge98.com/2009/01/HorribleFingerprint5000)
16:03:01 <ehird> oops i just clicked that
16:03:04 <ehird> now it's in his server logs :D
16:03:16 <ais523> I'll probably use an email-based tag: URL for IFFI, I think
16:03:32 <AnMaster> ehird, oh also the FUNGE_ATTR_FAST attribute is actually quite useful, on x86. It tells gcc to use a "pass arguments in register" calling convention on x86 (on other platforms that is the default calling convention usually). Profiling shows it helps a bit on x86. Just in case you wondered. :)
16:03:54 <ehird> AnMaster: If you say any more I will kill you for microoptimizing.
16:04:19 <fizzie> That's not an optimal tool for killing.
16:04:25 <ehird> fizzie: It is, however, painful.
16:04:42 <fizzie> You should first apply a file to the fork to sharpen it; you'll shave several centiseconds off the killing operation.
16:04:53 <ehird> It'll also be more painful.
16:04:56 <ehird> I will also use a spoon.
16:09:59 <AnMaster> hm, static array coded and compiles *tests*
16:10:26 <AnMaster> runs!? Wait... works on first try. Coded in C... Something must be wrong ;)
16:10:38 <ehird> AnMaster: is it fast? :-P
16:10:59 <AnMaster> ehird, debug build, so don't know yet, just checking valgrind likes it and so on so far
16:12:37 <AnMaster> ehird, about same speed, with hash the time varies more between fastest and slowest. With static the "spread" is smaller.
16:12:48 <ehird> It should be a lot faster, really.
16:13:00 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/rdV5Hn36.html
16:13:00 <ehird> You're cutting out the hash function, all the checks of the hashtable, the linked list traversal...
16:13:10 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe the check is bad then
16:13:18 <ehird> There's probably a flaw, yeah.
16:13:44 <AnMaster> ah well at least the world is sane then. It *didn't* work on first try ;)
16:14:22 <AnMaster> Breakpoint 1, fungespace_is_static (x=63, y=63) at /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/funge-space/funge-space.c:123
16:14:22 <AnMaster> 123 if ((x & FUNGESPACE_STATIC_MASK_X) && (y & FUNGESPACE_STATIC_MASK_Y))
16:15:18 <AnMaster> wait. I seem to be missing a ! there
16:16:07 <fizzie> What you want is something like "if ((x & ~0x3ff) || (y & ~0x3ff)) { use_the_hash_instead(); }" -- are there any bits in either coordinates outside the range.
16:17:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait, what did you mean with " are there any bits in either coordinates outside the range."?
16:18:13 <fizzie> Well, "x & ~0x3ff" will be nonzero only for values that are <0 or >0x3ff.
16:19:24 <fizzie> For any value in [0, 0x3ff] only the ten least significant bits will be set, and those will be cleared by the masking; for any value that's <0 or >0x3ff there's at least some bits outside those ten least-significant which will still be there, making the result nonzero.
16:19:50 <AnMaster> you mean it could return "is in static" when it isn't?
16:19:56 <fizzie> The "outside the range" comment might've been a bit imprecise.
16:21:00 <ais523> why bother using &~ when you have >
16:21:11 <ais523> the compiler willl optimise them into the same thing anyway...
16:21:12 <ehird> ais523: speed, supposedly
16:21:12 <fizzie> ais523: It's clearer. :p
16:21:56 <fizzie> Did I not say that the one who deals with compilers will tell you how much the compiler will optimize that kind of stuff. :p
16:22:30 <ais523> a good rule of thumb: the compiler is better at silly low-level optimisation tricks than you are
16:23:16 <oklopol> i find that pretty clear too
16:23:33 <ais523> but yes, I find &~0x3ff relatively clear
16:23:51 <ais523> but would still find ((unsigned)x>=0x400) clearer
16:23:57 <ais523> and it will be compiled into the same thing
16:24:09 <ais523> I'll be back soon, rebooting, just upgraded the kernel
16:25:37 <oklopol> i wouldn't find that clearer, because i'd think (unsigned)x meant abs() at first.
16:26:24 <ehird> you don't program c, though.
16:26:37 <fizzie> Yes, and I'd start to wonder about C's conversion rules. "(unsigned)x" is not exactly "interpret the bits of x as unsigned".
16:26:58 <fizzie> I'm sure it does the right thing; but I'd wonder.
16:27:24 <fizzie> About the only thing I'd find completely unmistakable would be the (x >= 0 && x <= 1023).
16:27:27 <oklopol> ehird: i don't, but that's still not something i usually do, just like to announce it when i fail.
16:29:35 <ais523> fizzie: (unsigned)x is "interpret the bits of x as unsigned" if you use two's complement
16:32:25 <fizzie> Explicit nop, wasn't it?
16:32:56 <AnMaster> takes one tick, space take no ticks
16:33:21 <oklopol> ugh my head hurts so much.
16:33:22 <AnMaster> however the odd thing is I didn't even get past the funge-93 part first
16:35:06 <AnMaster> static_space[x*y] != static_space[x*FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X*y]; XD
16:35:48 <fizzie> And you might still want something more like [x+FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X*y].
16:35:50 <AnMaster> well that isn't totally correct either. segfault
16:36:58 <AnMaster> real 0m0.122s to real 0m0.059s
16:36:58 <ehird> AnMaster: from 0.11 to what
16:37:14 <ais523> AnMaster: is that for Mycology
16:37:16 <ehird> see, if you'd spent less time putting posix_ in functions and more time thinking about algorithms and structures :-P
16:37:23 <ais523> running Mycology in .059s is pretty impressive...
16:37:33 <ehird> ais523: he added a static array
16:37:36 <AnMaster> ehird, however it may still be buggy, need to test edge cases, such as when writing near the edge of the static space and so on
16:37:41 <ehird> for the most common boundaries
16:37:41 <ais523> I suggested that months ago IIRC
16:37:59 <ehird> ais523: pfft, everyone knows microoptimizations do far better
16:40:04 <AnMaster> ehird, also *reduced* memory usage, at least for mycology.
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16:40:18 <ehird> AnMaster: I hope you've learned a lesson. :-P
16:40:31 <AnMaster> well not odd really that memory usage is reduced, less overhead
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16:42:50 <AnMaster> ehird, one issue is I can't run valgrind on it
16:42:52 <AnMaster> $ valgrind ./cfunge ../mycology/mycology.b98
16:42:52 <AnMaster> valgrind: mmap(0x629000, 1067462656) failed in UME with error 22 (Invalid argument).
16:42:52 <AnMaster> valgrind: this can be caused by executables with very large text, data or bss segments.
16:43:08 <ehird> fixable, i'm sure.
16:43:30 <AnMaster> ehird, it only happened after I corrected the size of the array, it was too small before
16:43:39 <AnMaster> due to the same forgetting *FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X
16:44:06 <ais523> not being able to run valgrind on something may indicate a deeper problem...
16:44:29 <ais523> also, 1067462656 bytes is a lot... that's about 1GB of memory
16:44:33 <ais523> not everyone has that much...
16:44:45 <AnMaster> indeed for a static array it is too much
16:45:11 <ais523> you're lucky the BSS segment was invented in that case, otherwise you'd have a 1GB executable...
16:45:28 <ehird> your static array is too big!!
16:45:30 <ehird> what is it set at ??????
16:46:10 <ais523> well 512x255 doesn't come to 1GB
16:46:20 <ais523> anyway, it's the mmap which had the 1GB argument, not the array
16:46:24 <AnMaster> ais523, true, but remember each line needs 255 entries
16:46:29 <ehird> AnMaster: it doesn't
16:46:33 <ehird> just make it only handle smaller lines
16:46:49 <AnMaster> well mycology is about 200 chars wide iirc
16:47:03 <AnMaster> so we can loose power of two if we want
16:47:12 <AnMaster> and it is about 700 lines long
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16:50:38 <AnMaster> #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X 255
16:50:39 <AnMaster> #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y 511
16:50:47 <AnMaster> static fungeCell static_space[FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X * FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y];
16:51:54 <oklopol> but how will that help the society?
16:52:01 <ehird> in a hot way, presumably.
16:52:53 * AnMaster adds some valgrind macros in the code
16:52:55 <oklopol> how are doubles returned in stdcall
16:53:02 <ehird> in a hot way, I'm guessing?
16:53:39 <oklopol> std's are not all that hot
16:53:54 <ehird> does anyone want to translate all this okoese into something actually meaningful?
16:54:00 <ehird> i'm guessing hot is related to okoality.
16:54:16 <oklopol> "how are doubles returned in stdcall?" was really my only point, and that was a question
16:55:01 <oklopol> "std's are not all that hot" was a simple std double entendre, the original hotness+society was just general okoese, i won't attempt to translate it into your human languages
16:55:42 <ais523> oklopol: did you just come up with a pun that only works in a non-existent language?
16:56:15 <AnMaster> wtf I end up with memory corruption elsewhere.
16:56:29 <oklopol> yeah sure that's so much fun if you knew okoese!
16:56:42 <oklopol> but really, are they returned in like floating point registers?
16:56:55 <ais523> I don't know how stdcall works, really
16:57:03 <ais523> there are lots of calling conventions floating around
16:57:11 <AnMaster> $5 = (fungeCell (*)[130305]) 0x628540
16:57:12 <ais523> and the only one I really know is the one ABI uses (for gcc-bf)
16:57:20 <AnMaster> (gdb) print 0x628540 + sizeof(static_space)
16:57:31 <AnMaster> now, is it just me, or are two static variables overlapping?
16:57:58 <oklopol> i asked our lecturer, he just said programming directly with stdcall was such a horrible experience he didn't wanna try to remember the details.
16:58:05 <AnMaster> (gdb) print &static_space + sizeof(static_space)
16:58:05 <AnMaster> $10 = (fungeCell (*)[130305]) 0xfd03a10580
16:58:19 <ais523> AnMaster: is that on 64-bit?
16:58:25 <ais523> that pointer looks worryingly large...
16:58:32 <oklopol> sources always say things are returned in EAX, why say something that specific if it clearly cannot be entirely true.
16:58:50 <ais523> what is sizeof(static_space)?
16:58:59 <ais523> oh, there isn't an overlap really
16:59:30 <ais523> &static_space + sizeof(static_space) == (char*)static_space + sizeof(static_space)*sizeof(*static_space)
16:59:34 <ais523> which is surely not what you meant...#
17:00:46 <ais523> pointer arithmetic in C works in units of sizeof(whatever you're pointing to), not in units of 1, unless you cast to char* first
17:00:47 <AnMaster> then why do I get memory corruption in pic, and valgrind fails to detect it
17:00:54 <AnMaster> must be some off by one error or such
17:02:05 <ehird> <ais523> pointer arithmetic in C works in units of sizeof(whatever you're pointing to), not in units of 1, unless you cast to char* first
17:02:10 <ehird> this always really annoyed me
17:02:19 <ais523> ehird: arrays wouldn't work otherwise
17:02:23 <ehird> ais523: i know but eurgh
17:02:25 <ais523> it only annoys you if you're trying to think too low-level
17:02:31 <ehird> it makes pointers a weird magic type with odd addition
17:02:36 <ais523> it's easy to do in C though, because it's so low-level itself
17:02:40 <ehird> ais523: considering c is low level
17:02:47 <ais523> "pointer" is not one type but lots, when you know that it's easy to handle
17:02:48 <ehird> and it provides easy ways to get a pointer's memory address
17:02:51 <ehird> like "casting to int"
17:02:55 <AnMaster> ais523, currently I'm wondering what is located in the 1368 byte gap between those variables
17:03:07 <ais523> AnMaster: get your compiler to output a map file
17:03:14 <AnMaster> I guess something that is addressable since valgrind didn't complain
17:03:44 <AnMaster> ais523, can't locate that in man gcc?
17:04:23 <ais523> as the argument to gcc
17:04:26 <ais523> (just -M to the linker)
17:04:53 <AnMaster> -M goes to stdout according to man ld?
17:05:11 <ais523> strange, but I suppose it's like -E going to stdout
17:05:50 <ais523> yes -Wl,-Map,cfunge.map
17:05:59 <ais523> would give you a map file called cfunge.map
17:06:11 <AnMaster> yes I'm looking for static variables in it atm
17:06:26 <AnMaster> ais523, ah they would be in bss I believe...
17:06:38 <ais523> sensible place to put big things full of zeros
17:06:41 <AnMaster> because I can't locate them in that map file
17:06:51 <ais523> but bss should be in the map file too
17:06:57 <ais523> can you paste it, and I'll have a look myself?
17:07:35 <ais523> that's why I asked you to paste it, rather than just put it inline in channel...
17:07:47 <AnMaster> ais523, some pastebins got length limits
17:07:51 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/cTCkFA47.html
17:08:45 <AnMaster> static_space is in funge-space.c pic in TURT.c
17:09:25 <ais523> funge-space.o was given 0xfe848 in the BSS
17:09:35 <ais523> that looks like it's large enough to fit your static-space array
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17:09:58 <ais523> whereas TURT.o got 0xa8 of space
17:10:15 <Deewiant> ais523: what do you mean arrays wouldn't work
17:10:18 <ais523> ok, so it should fit easily
17:10:28 <ais523> Deewiant: well, a[b] means *(a+b)
17:10:33 <Deewiant> just map a[i] to *(a + i * sizeof *a)
17:10:39 <ais523> so if pointer arithmetic were redefined to work on bytes, it wouldn't work properly
17:10:45 <ehird> ais523: pointers are not arrays
17:10:47 <ais523> Deewiant: what about *p++ in arrays of non-string?
17:10:49 <AnMaster> ais523, it was not a pointer, I was wrong
17:10:56 <ais523> ehird: I know pointers aren't arrays
17:10:59 <ehird> just do the crazy-ass overloading for arrays, OR what Deewiant said
17:11:04 <ais523> but array indexing is implemented using pointer arithmetic
17:11:07 <Deewiant> ais523: that would be an error and everyone would do it differently if it hadn't ever worked :-P
17:11:12 <ehird> ais523: doesn't have to be
17:11:14 <AnMaster> ais523, there is also another small static variable there
17:11:27 <Deewiant> ais523: it's trading one set of gotchas for another, both ways would work
17:11:43 <ais523> ok, 80 + 40 = 120, and 0xa8 is 168
17:11:46 <ais523> so easily enough space
17:12:13 <ais523> Deewiant: fwiw, pointers in BCPL work like you suggested, I think
17:12:19 <ais523> at least, all addition is done in 4-byte units
17:12:21 <Deewiant> ais523: didn't BCPL only have one type
17:12:25 <ais523> as all BCPL data types are 4 bytes long
17:12:39 <AnMaster> ais523, for funge space there is 1042440 + 48
17:12:44 <ais523> it only effectively has one type as they're all 4 bytes long
17:13:09 <ais523> and the compiler gave it 0xfe848
17:13:15 <ais523> so no, doesn't seem to be any static variable overlap
17:13:33 <AnMaster> ais523, hm right, wonder why I got memory corruption there, and why valgrind didn't warn
17:13:43 <Deewiant> ais523: according to wikipedia it was 'word' which was problematic when moving BCPL code away from 16-bit machines
17:13:49 <ais523> maybe something else was corrupting it?
17:14:02 <AnMaster> ais523, well I only changed the space stuff.
17:14:03 <ais523> you could have got a stray pointer somewhere which ended up pointing there
17:14:12 <ais523> as long as it was pointing into the BSS, valgrind wouldn't notice
17:14:14 <ais523> as you own all the space there
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17:17:27 <AnMaster> it is really bad access in static_space
17:17:30 <AnMaster> (gdb) print 63 + 511 * FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X
17:17:33 <AnMaster> (gdb) print sizeof(static_space) / sizeof(fungeCell)
17:18:06 <AnMaster> can't figure out where the off-by-whatever error is
17:18:10 <AnMaster> static fungeCell static_space[FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X * FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y];
17:18:13 <AnMaster> #define STATIC_COORD(rx, ry) (rx+FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X*ry)
17:18:27 <fizzie> That should be ((rx)+FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X*(ry))
17:18:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, well that won't solve the issue however
17:18:55 <fizzie> Sure, but it still should be like that.
17:19:29 <AnMaster> still, off by one on FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X I guess
17:19:55 <AnMaster> brb, freezing doesn't help me think
17:19:55 <fizzie> In any case, you could've done it as a 2d array and then the compiler would do the complicated "y*width+x" part for you. Not that it buys much more than a bit of syntax.
17:19:56 * ehird considers scribting
17:20:08 <ehird> fizzie: Does gcc optimize that?
17:20:19 <ais523> ehird: it's identical code both ways
17:20:30 <ais523> even without optimisation, it comes to the same thing...
17:34:01 <AnMaster> ais523, is it? it seems about 0.010 seconds slower
17:34:40 <ais523> AnMaster: x[a][b] and x[a+b*SOMECONSTANT] should become the same code
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17:42:17 <AnMaster> ais523, about speed: right, was using wrong test values
17:46:23 <fizzie> Of course with a 2d array the initialization is a tiny bit uglier; either a nested for loop or walking a pointer through it.
17:46:42 <AnMaster> and I fixed the off by one error now
17:47:59 <AnMaster> one issue is that this thing with offset to have some negative in the static array... what about signed overflow
17:48:41 <ais523> you can check the offset isn't negative
17:48:43 <AnMaster> x = position->x + FUNGESPACE_STATIC_OFFSET_X; // where position->x is a signed integer
17:48:57 <ais523> AnMaster: why aren't you checking before you do that
17:49:04 <ais523> I don't see how you can avoid a buffer overflow otherwise
17:49:25 <ais523> well, if you're only checking the result of the multiplication
17:49:33 <ais523> you might have really weird x and y which end up somewhere inside the array
17:49:41 <fizzie> ais523: It's easier to check [0, N] than [-N1, N2].
17:49:43 <AnMaster> ais523, I just add an offset to the coords so that some of negative fungespace is also in the static array
17:50:13 <ais523> in that case, given the way fungespace wraps, cast position->x to unsigned first, and work with unsigned numbers
17:51:05 <AnMaster> hm that would depend on the system using two-complement
17:51:42 <fizzie> Was it guaranteed that "unsigned int" is large enough to contain all "int" values? I guess it was.
17:51:47 <ais523> cast to unsigned works as if you were using twos-complement
17:51:51 <ais523> regardless of what you were actually using
17:52:39 <fizzie> Also: you can cast it to unsigned and use those for the hash-table keys no matter what happens to the integer values, really. It's not like the hash table cares about it.
17:53:22 <AnMaster> lets say I have 1024*1024 as static, then this offset is added to move the static space to include a bit of negative funge space too. I then check if the resulting coordinates are within the static funge space, if yes I use that to access it, if not I use original coordinates for the hash library
17:53:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm the issue I'm concerned about is that adding the offset overflows it, but yeah I guess that will work
17:54:12 <fizzie> Well, you should be able to do that simply as "x = (unsigned)position->x + offset;"
17:54:29 <fizzie> Then the overflow will not invoke the nose-demons.
17:55:27 <fizzie> And the cast-to-unsigned is guaranteed to do the "right thing", so that -1 ends up being RANGE-1.
17:57:21 <AnMaster> warning: comparison of unsigned expression >= 0 is always true. right... means I can actually remove part of the check for if it is in static array space
17:59:47 <fizzie> It's the equivalent of the if ((unsigned)x < N) style of testing. And I guess it's pretty clear, but personally not any clearer than bitmasking. Maybe I'm just irrationally fond of bitwise operations.
18:01:03 <ais523> fizzie: (unsigned)x < N works even if N isn't a power of 2
18:02:13 <ais523> AnMaster: is that including all the file I/O?
18:02:50 <ais523> AnMaster: you're really messing with Deewiant's "assuming working negative funge-space" there
18:03:07 <AnMaster> ais523, it will work, outside the static array a hash library is used
18:03:18 <AnMaster> if I enable sandbox mode (where all file IO except initial loading is forbidden):
18:03:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:04:24 <AnMaster> that disables i, o, =, restricts the env vars in y to a subset, disables FILE, SOCK, SCKE, DIRF, PERL
18:04:59 <AnMaster> oh yes TURT which does file IO to a fixed name is allowed
18:05:14 <Deewiant> disabling PERL probably halves the time on windows :-P
18:06:07 <ais523> Deewiant: you should get Mycology to test negative funge-space at -lots,-lots rather than -1,-1
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18:06:26 <ais523> as AnMaster's special-casing negative fungespace 16 chars to the left of and above the origin
18:06:34 <ais523> which is clearly cheating...
18:06:46 <Deewiant> ais523: I can't assume that a reasonable-time algorithm is implemented
18:06:47 <AnMaster> ais523, lots,lots will work. just slower
18:07:03 <AnMaster> since it will use the hash table, instead of the static array
18:07:09 <ais523> Deewiant: why don't you check lots,lots in Mycology, by the way
18:07:20 <ais523> to verify that implementations are in fact using fungespace sensibly?
18:07:21 <Deewiant> ais523: same reason: if it's just one big dynamic array, for instance
18:07:38 <ais523> Deewiant: doesn't the Funge-98 spec imply it shouldn't be?
18:07:47 <Deewiant> no, it just says that it should work
18:07:53 <Deewiant> but not in any reasonable time
18:08:04 <ais523> even if you go to (4000000000,4000000000)?
18:08:10 <ais523> that would be out of the memory space of most computers
18:08:17 <Deewiant> yeah, but it would work on some computers
18:08:18 <ais523> *even if you go to (2000000000,2000000000)?
18:08:24 <ais523> yet it's a legit funge-space location
18:09:33 <Deewiant> ais523: I could equally well have a file with 4294967295 bytes in it and complain if it can't be loaded as it's a legit funge program ;-)
18:10:05 <ais523> Deewiant: wow, you found a bug in cfunge
18:10:14 <ais523> or possibly in the standard
18:10:26 <ais523> maybe Funge-108 should have "implementation limits" like the C standard does
18:10:34 <Deewiant> ais523: "If the underlying memory mechanism cannot provide this (e.g. no more memory is available to be allocated,) the interpreter should complain with an error and do what it can to recover, (but not necessarily gracefully)."
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18:11:05 <Deewiant> so basically the program 'echo "out of memory"' is a valid funge-98 interpreter
18:11:25 <Azstal> awesome underlying memory mechanism :)
18:11:54 <AnMaster> ehird, about the memory usage being less, I think that isn't correct. Seems the valgrind tool massif doesn't include static variables, only heap
18:12:15 <Azstal> * 2008-10-29: upgraded to nomalloc 0.76 to fix some OOM errors
18:13:01 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> ais523: I could equally well have a file with 4294967295 bytes in it and complain if it can't be loaded as it's a legit funge program ;-) <-- hm?
18:13:18 <ais523> AnMaster: it's about programs which are too big to fit in memory
18:13:22 <ais523> yet are legit Funge programs
18:14:01 <AnMaster> that is INT_MAX for 32-bit int isn't it?
18:14:25 <Deewiant> or, to be simple about it, 2^32-1.
18:14:29 <AnMaster> well. Get a 64-bit machine, get lots of ram
18:14:48 <AnMaster> may take a few minutes to load I guess
18:16:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | stdin - keyboard.
18:17:09 <AnMaster> ais523, also what about truly infinite funge spaces? it would only fail when the coordinate itself doesn't fit in memory
18:17:56 <ais523> heh, upon seeing that topic I interpreted the - as the stdin and wondered what the keyboard was doing
18:18:01 <ais523> optbot: fungot: say something
18:18:02 <optbot> ais523: * feesh starts off fbf
18:18:02 <fungot> ais523: s/ tru/ try/ has anyone on here used mod_scheme?. yarly' without ' orly' or ' spec' is that
18:18:19 <ais523> optbot: fungot: say something
18:18:19 <fungot> ais523: such as? i maintain my curiousity. i really do
18:18:29 <fungot> optbot: I want to talk with you, because this guy here, just above me, asked me to do it.
18:18:29 <optbot> fungot: Obey Newton's laws or face elongation!
18:18:30 <fungot> optbot: later folks, thanks for you help :)
18:18:30 <optbot> fungot: And mutter about how my college decided to ask for roommate requests, only to completely ignore them.
18:18:30 <fungot> optbot: i couldn't figure that out, not a quasiquote.
18:18:31 <optbot> fungot: it it tells me not to look at some things
18:18:31 <fungot> optbot: mitä saa fnord sokea, fnord ja fnord." 3.0.
18:18:32 <fungot> optbot: a couple weeks ago, my first case if ( ( a b)
18:18:32 <optbot> fungot: You should put a gaping security hole into EgoBot in case this happens again.
18:18:41 <fungot> (opt)(bot: I want to talk with you, because this guy here, just above me, asked me to do it.)~SS
18:19:06 <ais523> ~SS can be abbreviated to *S, btw
18:19:35 <ais523> <optbot> fungot: You should put a gaping security hole into EgoBot in case this happens again.
18:19:35 <fungot> ais523: well mit has the whole fnord range.
18:19:35 <optbot> ais523: everyone would have to ask me for a password then?
18:19:50 <ais523> what a great line, I wonder who said it originally?
18:23:03 <AnMaster> oh cool, icc decided to vectorise the loop that fills the static variable with spaces.
18:25:26 <oklopol> fungot: optbot: mitä saa fnord sokea, fnord ja fnord." 3.0. <<< fizzie: finnish from where?
18:25:26 <optbot> oklopol: And remember that MemoServ + pastebin = email :-)
18:25:27 <fungot> oklopol: well i can, my ass is not dumb... a would do ' math with side effects. severe stomach ache is among those " contact your doctor immediately" effects. and i'm not particularly interested in helping, then.
18:25:51 <AnMaster> ehird, want a new tarball for last code?
18:26:44 <AnMaster> ehird, if you do: http://omploader.org/vdmt4 is a tar.bz2 of r461
18:28:52 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, if you do: http://omploader.org/vdmt4 is a tar.bz2 of r461 <-- contains the static array stuff.
18:40:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, you may want to try last cfunge
18:40:36 <fizzie> I will, later tonight.
18:42:25 <ehird> even though last is incorrect
18:43:15 <oklopol> really i wanted to make some joke about cfunge officially being cancelled
18:43:42 <oklopol> fizzie: where's the finnish from?
18:46:14 <ehird> WOOP WOOP! All Google accounts are now OpenIDs: http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/10/29/your-gmail-account-is-now-an-openid/
18:47:17 <fizzie> oklopol: The word "bum" just reminded me. I don't know the etymology of it.
18:47:28 <ehird> I read "bumtsibum" as "bum shit bum".
18:47:33 <ehird> Just letting you know.
18:47:49 <fizzie> ehird: I was referring to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BumtsiBum!
18:47:55 <fizzie> Although that article is quite stubby.
18:48:04 <oklopol> fizzie: yeah but the other finnish.
18:48:10 <ehird> I thought you meant bum-tish-dum
18:51:47 -!- mbishop_ has changed nick to mbishop.
19:02:01 <fizzie> oklopol: *Oh*, that Finnish. I didn't read the backscroll much.
19:02:46 <fizzie> oklopol: I have my personal ircnet/#douglasadams channel logs in the mix too. It's a mostly English channel, but there have been some discussions in Finnish. It's curious that the word "sokea", for example, must appear at least twice somewhere.
19:03:34 <fizzie> Without the fnords, the original question indeed appeared on that channel and was: "Mitä saa joululahjaksi sokea, mykkä ja kuuro pikkutyttö?"
19:04:00 <fizzie> (And the answer was "Syövän." I'm not sure what the point was there.)
19:04:29 <fizzie> "What does a blind, mute and deaf little girl get for christmas? Cancer."
19:08:17 <fizzie> The thing had zero context around it, so I have no clue what the point was there.
19:17:37 <fizzie> Having a conversation with the bot again:
19:17:38 <fizzie> 20:17:04 <fizzie> fungot: How do you do!
19:17:38 <fizzie> 20:17:04 <fungot> fizzie: usually i depress myself by reading old logs
19:17:51 <fizzie> I guess it doesn't really have much else to read.
19:18:04 <oklopol> can it inspect its own source?
19:18:31 <fizzie> Sure, it's there in the Funge-space. And it does have read privileges to the source file, too.
19:18:41 <ais523> oklopol: Markov-chaining Befunge would be weird
19:18:51 <ais523> especially as it's not obvious what direction to read it in
19:19:31 <fizzie> I guess there's now quite a mess of stuff to read. Although they're in the built language model files, which aren't exactly made for reading either, given that they lack all kinds of structure.
19:19:35 <ehird> make fungot's text database ITS OWN SOURCE
19:19:36 <fungot> ehird: sisc just ought to support scsh's delimited reader library. srfis help, but it doesn't
19:34:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, you can't update cfunge right now, datacenter issues
19:34:32 <AnMaster> so the server it is hosted down is unreachable
19:34:43 * AnMaster haven't got any info about ETA yet :/
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21:05:02 <ais523> that's a nice short conversation...
21:07:33 <ais523> sounds like a mezzawhateveritis comic
21:07:55 <ais523> not very well atm, I haven't done anything useful in ages
21:08:10 <ais523> and I have 2 projects I actually have to work on for university, both of which are arguably eso
21:09:53 <fizzie> I got handed the dubious honour of maintaining yet another messy (although a mercifully small) pile of Perl, because the person who's so far been "responsible" for it is leaving for greener (i.e. more $$$s than in the academic circles) pastures.
21:10:15 <ais523> fizzie: more $$$s than Perl?
21:10:24 <ais523> Perl is full of dollars, due to using them as the sigil for scalars
21:11:55 <fizzie> I wonder if there already is a BrainFuck isomorph that uses only various currency symbols as commands, with a punny money-themed name.
21:12:24 <ais523> that's probably the rule number whatever of esolangs
21:12:34 <oklopol> kinda sucks for me too, trying to start this programming project, the problem is the description of what i'm supposed to do is really vague. and i hate thinking, unless the thing i'm thinking about is fully IO-less
21:12:35 <ais523> "There is a Brainfuck deriviative of it. No exceptions."
21:12:37 <AnMaster> assuming you saw that updated tarball
21:13:37 <fizzie> oklopol: Well, re the Perl mess, I also have a feature request for it. The "requirements" from the "customer" are two words ("forced segmentation") and no-one seems to know what they want; I don't even know who "they" are.
21:13:50 <AnMaster> ehird, well I don't blame you if you stopped doing it. I was talking about that stuff you said you did on the hash library
21:14:08 <ais523> fizzie: that's one crazily ambiguous requirement
21:14:11 <ais523> why don't you ask them what it means?
21:14:21 <AnMaster> ehird, far from as critical now when the static array handles most
21:14:23 <fizzie> ais523: Because I don't know who wanted the feature. :p
21:14:42 <fizzie> ais523: It's less ambiguous in context, but I still don't know what exactly it is they want.
21:14:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, moving the underload stuff around would probably help, profiling said it went outside the static stuff for a bit
21:14:59 <oklopol> fizzie: sounds even worse than mine.
21:15:05 <fizzie> AnMaster: How large is your static array, then?
21:15:16 <ais523> AnMaster: any day now I expect you to put out a version of Mycology optimised for cfunge
21:15:23 <oklopol> my problem is more that i don't want to actually read the given code/documentation, because i don't want to use thinking time for this.
21:16:23 <AnMaster> ais523, the fact is however that fizzie use cfunge because it is faster/better/have fewer odd limits than rc/funge. So if he optimise it for cfunge he can run even longer bf/unlambda programs
21:16:27 <oklopol> complaining/idling time is worth using on it though, no question.
21:16:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, I could make it larger I guess (1024x1024)
21:17:09 <fizzie> Well, the Underload stack will go past -64 pretty easily. It's reasonably easy to move, though... incidentally, which one do you think is faster in your implementation: something like 'ff*' compared to '98g'?
21:17:15 <AnMaster> would mean 4 or 8 mb static array (instead of 2 or 4)
21:17:38 <Deewiant> ff* should definitely be faster
21:17:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, ff* and 98g are not equivalent.
21:17:56 <fizzie> They are if I do ff*98p first.
21:18:06 <AnMaster> and stack should be quite fast
21:18:18 <AnMaster> lookup table heh, no that would most likely be slower
21:18:55 <fizzie> What about aaa** and 98g, then? Keeping in mind that the first one needs to fetch the extra instructions from the Funge-Space too.
21:19:35 <AnMaster> in other news life.bf in my profiled cfunge build is now so fast that patterns that repeat in cycles of 4 seem to be fixed on my monitor to one of the patterns.
21:20:25 <AnMaster> stack is pretty fast. but if you want to test it I recommend writing a short program that loops over that or such
21:21:46 <fizzie> I can easily move the Underload stack up a few hundred bytes by some tweaks followed by changing the 0`|-style stack underflow checks to ff*`|s, but if I want to move it "higher" (well, more to the right) than that I need to use either aaa** or <x><y>g to get the limit to compare against.
21:22:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, however... aaa** 5 funge-fetch, 4 pop 2 push
21:22:31 <AnMaster> 98g, 4 funge-fetch, 2 push 2 pop
21:22:45 <AnMaster> so logically it should be faster
21:24:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I could move the space a bit I guess if needed. It is easy for you to adjust the constants anyway, src/funge-space/funge-space.c lines 71-74
21:25:04 <fizzie> I guess, but it's all such guesswork when caches and such are involved. Also I have no clue how much stack a "typical" Underload program uses. Possibly it might even be faster to move the stack around a bit to keep the top parts in the "fast memory" always, but that's really too messy.
21:25:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, remember that the static array would be 4 * FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X * FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y bytes on a 32-bit funge build
21:25:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, and yeah due to caches I don't know about the speed either, so better profile it
21:26:15 <AnMaster> it is near impossible to predict
21:26:30 <fizzie> In the good old days you could just count cycles. :p
21:26:56 <AnMaster> better profile it, writing a short program that does it a few thousand/million times.
21:27:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, also it may differ on your cpu
21:27:52 <AnMaster> since I got a 64-bit sempron, at 2 GHz
21:28:15 <AnMaster> which is smaller than the cache of the Pentium 3 I have in another computer
21:28:47 <AnMaster> still I bet you can execute longer programs already
21:28:51 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source bf cat talk test greet
21:29:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, if you care to update, and see how long before it says out of time
21:29:39 <fizzie> Well, I do all my fungot development on this 'eris' box (which is an Athlon 64 X2 5600+ -- the names are quite ridiculous) while the fungot in here actually runs on a 1400 MHz Pentium-M.
21:29:40 <fungot> fizzie: s/ less/ fnord
21:29:49 <ais523> thutubot's out of time is faster or slower depending on how much memory use there is
21:30:29 <fizzie> Sure, I guess I could update it; but the ^ul out-of-time limit really depends on the program, since it counts Underload instructions which can take a very variable amount of time.
21:30:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, still for the same program it should be faster
21:30:49 <fizzie> ^ul ((fooooo):::***!:^):^
21:30:54 <AnMaster> since there would be fewer cycles
21:31:18 <AnMaster> since the actual program code is in "fast funge space"
21:31:22 <ais523> fungot: I take it "too much stack" depends on the number of bytes used on the stack
21:31:23 <fungot> ais523: now consider that do-stuff might use a gc'd language to talk to a defective person. thanks for telling me about that paper has nothing to do
21:31:25 <ais523> not the number of elements?
21:31:43 <fizzie> ais523: It's 10k bytes or so.
21:32:22 <fizzie> The time limit activates pretty fast for (:^):^ since it's such a simple program; might use a more complicated infiniloop for testing.
21:33:06 <fizzie> ^ul ((foobarbazquux):::***:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~!!:^):^
21:33:13 <fizzie> That one takes noticeably longer.
21:33:23 <fizzie> (At least when you're on the same Freenode server than fungot, anyway.)
21:33:24 <fungot> fizzie: sorry for butting in, but that is fixed in the .deb now,
21:33:52 <ais523> btw, that one would hold up Thutubot for ages too
21:34:25 <fizzie> Well, I'll update the cfunge I have on momus and let's see how fast that particular program is.
21:34:54 <ais523> AnMaster: presumably it isn't doing a C-INTERCAL and pretending to segfault when someone asks it for -help?
21:35:00 <fizzie> (Although quite a lot of the slowness comes from the large stack that extends out of the "fast space", I guess.)
21:35:13 <AnMaster> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
21:35:13 <AnMaster> 0x00000035fae73552 in strcmp () from /lib/libc.so.6
21:35:23 <fizzie> It has a "-h" flag, not "--help"; but I don't think I've used to get segfault out of it.
21:35:59 <ais523> I always wondered why C-INTERCAL did that, by the way
21:36:10 <ais523> I took out the delay while it was pretending to dump core as it got on my nerves
21:36:20 <ais523> but it's still the only "legit" way to get an internal-error message
21:36:35 <AnMaster> nice it locks up in SUBR in mycology too
21:36:38 <AnMaster> GOOD: R transfers stack elements correctly
21:37:39 <AnMaster> $ time ./funge -Y ~/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/mycology.b98 &>/dev/null
21:38:16 <ais523> what does -Y do on RC/Funge?
21:38:25 <Deewiant> enables standards-compliant 'y' behaviour
21:38:26 <AnMaster> makes y command conform to standard
21:38:34 <AnMaster> oh it's makefile ignore CFLAGS
21:38:37 <ais523> what's the non-standards-compliant behaviour?
21:39:09 <AnMaster> still far from as good as cfunge before static even
21:39:20 <Deewiant> ais523: instead of 'by' pushing the 11th stack element, it pushes the 11th 'logical' element (for instance the delta of the IP)
21:39:36 <Deewiant> (as opposed to the y-component of the delta)
21:39:38 <ais523> IMO, that makes more sense
21:39:48 <AnMaster> also this really makes me wonder wtf he was doing:
21:39:49 <AnMaster> mterm.c:(.text+0x14): warning: the `gets' function is dangerous and should not be used.
21:40:32 <fizzie> Heh, actually I think fungot's currently running on a 64-bit cfunge build, accidentally.
21:40:32 <fungot> fizzie: ok i lied. there are some formatting issues and missing sections.)
21:40:37 <AnMaster> but this one, I remember pointing it out before
21:41:01 <fizzie> Let's try 32-bit r462.
21:41:09 <fizzie> ^raw QUIT :funkity-hunkity
21:41:09 -!- fungot has quit ("funkity-hunkity").
21:41:56 <AnMaster> mterm.c:(.text+0x39): warning: the `gets' function is dangerous and should not be used.
21:42:06 -!- fungot has joined.
21:42:14 <fungot> ais523: but then again it might". that might give it a url.
21:42:16 <AnMaster> GOOD: P pushed nonzero for socket with data
21:42:16 <AnMaster> GOOD: P pushed 0 for socket without data
21:42:16 <AnMaster> GOOD: P pushed nonzero for socket with data
21:42:34 <ais523> AnMaster: does cfunge do SOCK yet, and will it in the future?
21:42:51 <fizzie> ais523: Do you mean efunge or what?
21:42:57 <AnMaster> ais523, cfunge does, or fungot wouldn't work
21:42:58 <fungot> AnMaster: that's what they're trained to do xor have the same semantics, though. ;p ( yeah, sue me, but i'd really like it. good example:
21:43:07 <fizzie> Given that fungot's running on cfunge, it's a safe bet to say it does SOCK.
21:43:07 <fungot> fizzie: i have a lot of things
21:43:12 <fizzie> fungot: I'm sure you do.
21:43:12 <fungot> fizzie: uni tübingen is actively working on hills, so expect php errors, and is it the most recent officially sanctioned one.
21:43:19 <AnMaster> ^ul ((foobarbazquux):::***:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~!!:^):^
21:43:28 <ais523> fizzie: I didn't realise you were doing it like that, Thutu has no network access but Thutu works fine
21:43:45 <ais523> that one's got it thinking again
21:43:51 <ais523> but not for all that long
21:43:59 <ais523> probably you could raise the time limit again
21:44:14 <AnMaster> well also it probably went outside fast space
21:44:38 * AnMaster ponders adding a diagnosis (build option) mode that warns when access is done in outer space
21:44:40 <fizzie> Yes, it's noticeably faster; now it's a good question how much of the speedup comes from the 32-bit build (I think the previous one was accidentally 64-bit) and how much from the space-change.
21:44:45 <AnMaster> for helping making funge programs fast
21:45:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, you could try again with 64-bit
21:45:09 <ais523> AnMaster: have a command-line option, and the option to not compile that option into the interp itself
21:45:22 <ais523> actually, do that for all your command-line options
21:45:25 <AnMaster> it should tell you if it is 32-bit or 64-bit
21:45:27 <ais523> so you can save time not parsing them if necessary
21:45:40 <AnMaster> ais523, issue: more ifs to check at runtime == slowdown
21:45:48 <AnMaster> at least in something run as often as funge space access
21:46:02 <fizzie> * Cell size is 64 bits (8 bytes).
21:46:09 <fizzie> (For the previous one, that is.)
21:46:14 <ais523> AnMaster: I said have them as compile-time settings
21:46:22 <ais523> so you can #define all the command line args out of the program
21:46:38 <AnMaster> ais523, well you can disable tracing -t if you want at compile time
21:46:51 <ais523> yes, do that for all the args at compile tim
21:46:56 <ais523> to save a marginal amount of runtime
21:47:07 <AnMaster> UUNNDDEEFF:: TT aafftteerr MM ppuusshheedd 122 123 ^C <-- nice one from rc/funge on ./funge -Y --help mycology.b98
21:47:26 <AnMaster> ais523, no clue, it was rc/funge
21:47:39 <AnMaster> ais523, NO clue, I don't PLAN to debug rc/funge
21:47:44 <fizzie> If I really wanted to make fungot fast, I'd run it with some JITting system; it doesn't ever do any self-modification, and really only uses cardinal directions, so static code analysis + constant-folding + JIT complication should make it fearsomely fast.
21:47:44 <fungot> fizzie: gcc -g -wall -shared c/ fnord
21:47:45 <AnMaster> I have looked at it's code before
21:47:52 <AnMaster> nothing will make me want to do it again
21:48:27 <fizzie> I've looked at it once or twice to trace down some issues. I've seen worse code.
21:48:54 <AnMaster> oh using -S -S - Suppress summary
21:49:05 <AnMaster> I bet there is memory corruption
21:49:22 <AnMaster> ./funge -Y -S ~/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/mycology.b98
21:49:29 <AnMaster> ./funge -YS ~/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/mycology.b98
21:50:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, the main issue isn't horrible coding style, the main issue is that it is buggy and have a bad (but not horrible) coding style
21:51:35 <AnMaster> I bet if I ran the fuzz test script from cfunge on it it would just totally fail. While nowdays cfunge rarely fails in that except for OOM conditions (that cfunge doesn't always handle cleanly)
21:51:44 <AnMaster> and I try to fix all those bugs
21:52:21 <ais523> AnMaster: C-INTERCAL uses getopt on systems that have it, but it has its own alternate version for systems that don't
21:53:08 <AnMaster> ais523, ah right, remember I don't care about systems that don't implement POSIX ;P
21:53:50 <AnMaster> I only depend on POSIX.1-2001, though POSIX.1-2008 was ratified last month iir
21:54:09 <AnMaster> which shows I still care about backward compatibility~~~
21:54:55 <AnMaster> ah yes "Sep 26 2008: The IEEE has approved the document as IEEE Std 1003.1-2008" (http://www.opengroup.org/austin/)
21:55:05 <ais523> POSIX is an IEEE standard?
21:56:50 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway hopefully cfunge should work on any POSIX.1-2001 system that supports the memory mapped file option. Possibly the *build system* won't, but the code itself should, and if it doesn't I shall definitely try to fix it it if possible.
21:57:34 <AnMaster> "Remote/Funge - A new fingerprint FRPC has been added that allows a funge program to contact and execute funge procedures on remote funge servers." <-- Mike Riley has really gone nuts
21:57:59 <ais523> why not, that's an interesting idea for a fungerprint...
21:58:13 <ais523> (I noticed the typo, but decided not to fix it because I liked it)
21:59:10 <AnMaster> in either official fingerprints or the manual
21:59:48 <AnMaster> mentioned on http://www.rcfunge98.com/ though
21:59:51 <fizzie> Yes, you just need to guess.
22:00:02 <ais523> ah, it has its own domain name?
22:00:08 <fizzie> Is it implemented yet, though?
22:00:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, it says "has been added"
22:00:24 <ais523> "I am the original author of Rc/Funge-98, which was one of the first fully-compliant Funge-98 implementations." <--- was it ever fully-compliant?
22:00:50 <AnMaster> the last one isn't fully, the v1 one gets to the end with -Y
22:01:04 <AnMaster> at certain times it has passed mycology I know
22:01:14 <AnMaster> but that was way after cfunge did
22:01:34 <fizzie> So it says, but the character sequence "frpc" doesn't appear in the beta release.
22:01:45 <fizzie> It might be very "under construction" right now.
22:01:59 <AnMaster> it would be easy to code in erlang, in an actually fast way
22:02:20 <AnMaster> STRN, SOCK, SCKE and a few more yes, but most of his last ones: no thanks
22:04:23 <fizzie> The docs do leave something to be desired. The SGNL fingerprint has this X instruction: "X (c -- ) Set current cell to character c -- Whatever X becomes has no effect on the ip that triggered it."
22:04:49 <ais523> fizzie: I think I can guess what that does, though
22:04:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, he didn't even make SNGL, iirc that rc/funge based fork did
22:05:08 <fizzie> ais523: So can I now that I reread it.
22:06:34 <AnMaster> what the heck is IPMD, it is implemented, but not documented
22:06:46 <fizzie> http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcfunge2_manual.html#IPMD
22:07:15 <AnMaster> it changes dimension count for current program?
22:07:33 <ais523> it lets you use a sub-Fungespace of your current fungespace to run a funge of lesser dimension
22:08:06 <ais523> higher works too apparently
22:08:17 <ais523> although ofc it's all blank to start with because you didn't load a program into there
22:11:06 <AnMaster> I still haven't sent any ATHR draft to Mike Riley.... I don't want to offend him with such a well documented fingerprint
22:12:40 <Azstal> I keep seeing references to Funge-108. Is that "Funge-98 now that we've actually figured how k and stuff works"?
22:12:58 <AnMaster> Azstal, yes and a bit more, it is a draft of mine
22:13:06 <AnMaster> I'm quite sure I linked you to it before?
22:13:38 <AnMaster> anyway..., considering how buggy rc/funge is there are currently only two really good implementations I'd say: CCBI (lots of features, ok speed most of the time) and cfunge (fewer features, tweaked for speed). efunge still lacks too many features and is too experimental to qualify
22:13:47 <AnMaster> Azstal, or someone with a similar nick
22:14:08 <AnMaster> http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/ <-- select your preferred file format
22:15:25 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:16:02 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal.
22:23:05 <fungot> òòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòò ...too much output!
22:23:10 <thutubot> òòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòòò ...too much output!
22:23:38 <ais523> thutubot has a lower limit too I think, it's just slow when a lot of memory's used
22:24:22 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the memory growth of that function?
22:24:47 <fizzie> It appends one 'y' each round.
22:24:48 <ais523> too slow to trigger out-of-memory checks
22:24:52 <ais523> but fast enough to cause problems
22:25:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, in what direction does the ul stack grow?
22:25:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: Left, towards the negative X direction; didn't we have this talk already?
22:26:13 <fizzie> I think that was the argument for moving it right some characters.
22:26:18 <fizzie> Although that might've been mostly with ehird.
22:26:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, is there any special reason to not make it grow right? or down?
22:26:45 <AnMaster> and with down I mean in negative x but positive y
22:26:47 <ais523> AnMaster: something to do with the way STRN worked, IIRC
22:26:56 <fizzie> AnMaster: STRN's fixed delta, primarily. It's easiest when I can pop a string simply by applying G to the current top-of-stack.
22:27:10 <ais523> +ul (x)(~(yyyy)*~:^):^
22:27:13 <ais523> ^ul (x)(~(yyyy)*~:^):^
22:27:24 <fizzie> I'm not sure I want to bother dealing with that.
22:27:49 <ais523> hmm.... seems a good balance, I'm slowing down both bots a lot now
22:27:56 <ais523> I'll try with 8 ys next, I think
22:28:27 <ais523> just on fungot though, this already hits thutubot's memory limit
22:28:28 <fungot> ais523: let me know if it's cargo cult programming doing it is incorrect. the version at http://www.standarddeviance.com/ sigma.html, but i
22:28:32 <ais523> ^ul (x)(~(yyyyyyyy)*~:^):^
22:28:38 <fizzie> Also JSTR (well, according to rc-funge manual) pops fixed-length strings. Although I guess there's nothing wrong in the gnirtsN format, compared to 0gnirts.
22:29:10 <ais523> antigolf challenge: see how long you can make fungot run before erroring out
22:29:15 <fungot> ais523: and those magic identifiers are a pain
22:29:25 <ais523> ^ul (x)(~(yyyyyyy)*~:^):^
22:29:26 <AnMaster> fungot, "cargo cult programming"?
22:29:47 <ais523> AnMaster: that's to do with carrying on programming techniques even though you have no idea why they work
22:29:51 <ais523> leads to a lot of strange code
22:30:16 <fizzie> ais523: fungot's limits are ffaa*** instructions, cd*:* bytes of stack, and cd*:* bytes of extending the program leftwards from the starting point.
22:30:16 <fungot> fizzie: like short int short
22:30:23 <ais523> ^ul (x)(~(yyyyyy)*~:^):^
22:30:26 <AnMaster> ais523, I just couldn't apply the "cargo cult" concept to "programming"
22:30:50 <fizzie> So 22500 instructions and 24336 bytes.
22:31:07 <AnMaster> <fungot> AnMaster: no: see yes <-- was that from some dictionary?
22:31:12 <fungot> AnMaster: that might even be able to write stuff, but not quite. you still, presumably, because you can never die, they just never put things into the wrong window.
22:31:48 <ais523> fizzie: does fungot break a botloop in ^ul, or only in things mentioning its name
22:31:48 <fungot> ais523: fnord is not available for ppc?
22:32:11 <fizzie> ais523: Only in things mentioning it's name. We had a couple of +ul/^ul loops.
22:32:23 <fizzie> ais523: I think mine was shorter than... someone else's, though.
22:32:36 <fizzie> The "no: see yes" came from #scheme, they were teaching a factbot there.
22:33:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, isn't there some TOYS instruction to read a block of funge space in a saner direction?
22:33:21 -!- jix has joined.
22:34:30 <fizzie> AnMaster: Not a zero-terminated block, I think. And anyway, I would need instructions to specify the direction before every G/P. 0\01-\ is very ugly to write, since the delta needs to go below the starting-point.
22:34:52 <fizzie> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
22:34:52 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
22:34:52 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
22:34:52 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
22:34:53 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
22:34:53 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
22:34:53 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
22:34:53 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
22:34:54 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
22:34:54 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
22:34:54 -!- fungot has left (?).
22:34:54 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
22:35:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, time to make FGOT, functions for fungot ;)
22:35:17 <fizzie> Heh, now that fungot's so fast the loop gets going pretty rapidly.
22:35:24 -!- fungot has joined.
22:35:26 <ais523> it's easier to do a much shorter looped quine than that, but that one has the advantage of being symmetrical
22:38:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, you need ignore list yes
22:38:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, and you can tweak static limits of funge space as I said
22:39:47 <fizzie> Well, I'll consider it.
22:40:31 <fizzie> But I can pretty easily stick the starting-point of the Underload stack to whatever I select as the largest positive X value, so that as much stack as possible (without moving it around) will fit.
22:41:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, well largest positive X is 512-64, unless you tweak static limits
22:41:41 <fizzie> Also I've forgotten -march=pentium-m from the current build too.
22:41:44 <AnMaster> and that would at least help for small programs
22:41:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, cmake should keep that around?
22:42:03 <AnMaster> I mean you don't have to reconfigure
22:42:18 <AnMaster> or ccmake . to edit current values
22:42:33 <AnMaster> partial builds always work. I do it that way
22:43:41 <fizzie> I don't have bzr on the box I compiled that binary (since I might have some very different library versions on this box and fungot's actual home) so I just copy stuff around; didn't want to copy on top of old stuff. Although I guess I could've copied the build directory to the new revision.
22:43:42 <fungot> fizzie: not bad. i think i should just sell or give away all the monsters and hit points and other silliness
22:45:36 <fizzie> Currently my "workflow" is bzr export ../cfunge_rXXX; cp ../cfunge_rXXX; patch -p1 << chroot.patch; cd ..; scp -r cfunge_rXXX iris:inst/ followed by building on iris. I guess I could streamline a bit.
22:45:50 <fizzie> And not <<, that was a typo.
22:46:02 <ais523> what would << do? Append input?
22:46:13 <ais523> maybe open the file for input but put the file pointer at the end of it
22:46:13 <fizzie> It's used in the <<HEREDOC syntax, at least.
22:46:18 <ais523> only really useful if it's a pipe or something
22:46:33 <ais523> yes, I'm just trying to think up eso meanings for it by analogy with >>
22:46:43 <AnMaster> well apart from heredoc I got no clue what the heck it would do
22:47:24 <fizzie> Seems like it does the heredoc semantics even if there's a space after '<<'. I've only seen it written "<<FOO", though.
22:48:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is also the case of -
22:48:55 <AnMaster> however I don't use heredoc often
22:48:58 <ais523> isn't that a bash extension?
22:49:18 <fizzie> There's also <<<FOO, according to the manual.
22:49:19 <AnMaster> I'm the resident bash expert, not sh expert :P
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22:54:40 <AnMaster> hm what about generating code at runtime? I mean... using something like llvm, to statically select branches that are fixed by command line options and such
22:55:07 <AnMaster> not much speed difference I guess
22:55:35 <ais523> maybe a Befunge compiler which statically analyses the code to figure out which bits have to be interpreted and which can be compiled?
22:55:51 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't that undecidable?
22:56:05 <ais523> well, you could err on the safe side
22:56:15 <ais523> but it's easy enough to prove that certain bits of code won't be modified in many cases
22:56:22 <AnMaster> and still have a fallback if it turns out you were wrong
22:56:32 <ais523> e.g. fungot never modifies a bit of code that was in the program to start with
22:56:33 <fungot> ais523: are we having fun hitchhiking to cincinnati or far rockaway!!" sort. i always found that to be a
22:56:55 <fizzie> Didn't I just say about using JIT with fungot? :p
22:56:56 <fungot> fizzie: but most schemes have some ' unspecific' after things?
22:57:20 <ais523> fizzie: this would be compile-time, not JIT
22:58:02 <AnMaster> however I doubt I could pull off such a thing
22:58:28 <fizzie> I am doubtful as to whether you really could prove that sort of thing in non-trivial programs without including a recompiler in the interpreter just in case someone goes and really modifies the program.
22:58:34 <fizzie> Assuming the programmer isn't helping you, of course.
22:58:43 <ais523> well, you could trial-run the program
22:58:53 <ais523> you start with an assumption "nothing is modified" and see where control flow can go
22:58:54 <AnMaster> ais523, could be hard for something like fungot
22:58:55 <fungot> AnMaster: if you want to see the solution of that was a jest, as there is very little known about the file, and an anonymous function
22:59:05 <ais523> once you find something that contradicts that assumption, change your assumptions and try again
22:59:10 <ais523> it would be slow but I think it could work
22:59:19 <ais523> and for user input, merely assume you could have got any input
22:59:28 <AnMaster> ais523, say, you have user input and then you do a jump on said input
22:59:34 <fizzie> I've done something like that once; it used a "stack" that could contain uncertain values.
22:59:40 <AnMaster> ais523, or it could have reflected
22:59:42 <ais523> AnMaster: you could analyse that easily enough
23:00:09 <ais523> there are lots of situations to handle, luckily computers are good at handling lots of situations...
23:00:10 <AnMaster> ais523, what about user input used as coordinates for p?
23:00:20 <ais523> well, in that case you wouldn't know anything
23:00:25 <ais523> so you couldn't optimise
23:00:35 <AnMaster> ais523, and you need to know about all fingerprints
23:00:39 <ais523> for that matter, ^code breaks compilation in the case of fungot
23:00:40 <fungot> ais523: it is easy to fnord bf code in everywhere you'd want. rather than be spewed out onto one gargantuan monolith? or octopus? i can't escape it, eg.
23:00:51 <AnMaster> still that idea about "XN"2( I had may be nice
23:00:53 <fizzie> The stack size could also be a bit uncertain; then it redid its analysis if it ended up in a previously analysed piece of code with a stack that didn't match the assumptions it used to have; in that case it just used assumptions vague enough to accord for both possibilities.
23:00:55 <AnMaster> and a nice fingerprint name too
23:01:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, got a link to that thing?
23:01:28 <Asztal> a tracing jit might be easier
23:01:47 <fizzie> No. I'm not even sure I still have that thing any more. I seem to forget my projects quite easily.
23:02:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, was it the graph generating one?
23:02:05 <ais523> AnMaster: a 2-letter fingerprint? Such things don't exist!
23:02:22 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:02:26 <ais523> heh... what would be really amusing would be a 2-letter fingerprint which turned on 32-bit emulation mode for 16-bit Funges
23:02:48 <AnMaster> ais523, afaik 16-bit funges have never existed
23:02:53 <fizzie> It was for a Java-based "compile Befunge to JVM bytecode" attempt, but I didn't get to the code-generating parts; I just did a C code generation output that didn't handle put/get at all.
23:03:07 <ais523> AnMaster: it's legal to write a 16-bit Funge-98 interp, isn't it?
23:03:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: FBBI runs in DOS, no? it might be 16-bit
23:03:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, FBBI does? Didn't know
23:03:38 <AnMaster> ais523, well you can't load any existing fingerprints
23:03:44 <AnMaster> but apart from that I believe it is
23:03:55 <Asztal> I made mine 16-bit for a laugh. It wasn't particularly good.
23:04:36 <ais523> maybe I should make a 17-bit Funge interp, that uses one's complement
23:04:50 <ais523> one's complement works slightly better if you have a prime number of bits, where 2^bits-1 is a Mersenne prime
23:05:08 <Deewiant> and then implement a 17-bit fingerprint which turns on 34-bit emulation mode
23:09:42 <fizzie> Found some traces of that Java thing, but nothing I'd bother "releasing" even as a "look at this cruft" tarball. It was reasonably clever, although not *really* clever; for example, I used to use a lot of "discard-ifs" (that is, use a | or a _ to both discard a (known) value and change direction) but it wasn't clever enough to realize that in :!#v_| the '|' if will always go up.
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23:11:11 <fizzie> (Well, except if it happened to deduce the zero/nonzeroity of the value from something else. But it didn't realize that the result of the _-if already gives some information about the other values too, since they come from that :.
23:11:52 <AnMaster> doing that properly could be quite had
23:15:14 <fizzie> Actually now that I look at the code, it probably *was* clever enough to handle the fact that in :#v_| the latter if would always go down.
23:15:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, if anyone wrote _| would say the code was either meant for entering from two directions or was just silly
23:15:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, well why don't you release it
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23:15:40 <ais523> doesn't _ pop its argument?
23:15:41 <fizzie> It's not silly: it's a nice way to combine $ and ^ (or v, depending on the case).
23:15:45 <AnMaster> apart from your love for java I think it would be interesting
23:15:57 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, but often you need the value still, so you do a : before.
23:16:09 <fizzie> Then after the if you need to get rid of the duplicate which is no longer interesting.
23:17:08 <ais523> AnMaster: fizzie was talking about combining $ and ^
23:17:10 <fizzie> The underload interp does quite a lot of :'*-#v_$ style code; but if you want to turn ^ immediately afterwards, you can save a character by using | instead of $^.
23:17:25 <ais523> anyway, one use for mixed _ and | would be in a Huffman decoder
23:17:31 <ais523> you could make a decision tree out of _ | and spaces
23:18:00 <fizzie> Using as little characters as possible is one goal for Befunge-writing; one that has not been very important in fungot.
23:18:01 <fungot> fizzie: how efficient is thread creation/ starting in gambit? 32 bits?) and song notes match reality.
23:18:42 <ais523> but Befunge uses all the characters
23:18:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, well | would probably be faster, not sure
23:18:46 <ais523> even middot, on occasion
23:19:07 <AnMaster> ais523, which doesn't really count for most other cases
23:19:12 <ais523> yes, on occasion, like I said
23:19:28 <ais523> the chars above 128 are reserved for proprietary interp features, after all...
23:19:49 <fizzie> Anyway, the :#v_| logic in the Java thing was pretty naive; : was done by pushing the same Value object twice on the stack, and after the _ (for the branch that went right) we went through the stack and altered any copies of the popped value there might be, which obviously completely breaks if you manipulate it with ~ or 'x- or something; even though you could still deduce something there.
23:20:20 <ais523> sounds like you need pointers, they help a lot in implementing that kind of thing
23:23:37 <fizzie> Can't say I've really missed pointers in Java, since a "Foo x" for a user-defined Foo there is pretty much "Foo *x" in C/C++.
23:24:45 <AnMaster> well erlang got references... But of course whatever they point to can't be modified
23:26:47 <AnMaster> erlang:make_ref() then passing said reference around
00:07:15 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/wYc8k789.html <-- from rc/funge's main.c
00:07:24 <AnMaster> proof that Riley is a bad programmer as well
00:07:33 <AnMaster> (learn to use "continue" in C -_-)
00:08:17 <ais523> wait... is that removing the program name from argv by comparing it against the name from a Version Management System?
00:08:20 <AnMaster> and he drops the max index he found when parsing arguments
00:08:38 <ais523> also, that strcpy without allocating memory is suspicious
00:08:58 <ais523> anyway, time to go home I think
00:09:03 <AnMaster> ais523, cfunge uses whatever getopt says is the last option
00:09:07 <pikhq> Additionally, why the fuck does he have argv and ArgV?
00:09:29 <AnMaster> and you don't want to see the compare stuff above
00:09:48 <ehird> what is wrong with that code...
00:09:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, I think -YS cause memory corruption in rc/funge
00:10:01 <ehird> well, it's hard to figure out what without any context, of course
00:10:08 <ehird> I think calling him a bad programmer is a bit rude.
00:10:26 <AnMaster> ehird, he trows away an index from command line parsing 3 lines above
00:10:43 <ehird> fine, fine, but i still think it was rude to say that
00:11:16 <AnMaster> oh --help works fine if followed by a program
00:11:25 <ehird> rc/funge ran fungot, didn't it?
00:11:25 <fungot> ehird: but mine is simpler, one moment. i still have doubts concerning the exact implications :) fnord/ fnord/ images/ fnord/ fnord
00:11:31 <ehird> he's obviously not a terrible programmer
00:11:35 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it did, but older verion
00:11:36 <ehird> if he can get a befunge-98 system to work.
00:11:48 <AnMaster> true. but he can't get command line parsing to work
00:11:59 <pikhq> And command line parsing is easy...
00:12:02 <ehird> maybe he has some stupid, obscure, and crap parts of code, but that doesn't mean he can't program
00:12:05 <pikhq> Especially with getopt (GNU or otherwise)
00:12:10 <AnMaster> $ ./funge -S ~/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/sanity.bf
00:12:10 <AnMaster> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Exiting with return code = 0
00:12:13 <AnMaster> $ ./funge -S --help ~/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/sanity.bf
00:12:13 <AnMaster> 0 0 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 8 9 9 Exiting with return code = 0
00:12:25 <AnMaster> he got a huge loop with strcmp
00:12:40 <ehird> I'd like to point out that command-line parsing was probably not the top thing on his mind.
00:12:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, Mike Riley, the author of this program
00:12:47 <ehird> It was likely an afterthought.
00:12:57 <pikhq> ehird: Command line parsing takes all of half an hour to do right.
00:13:00 <AnMaster> ehird, well even so, crashing on it is messy
00:13:10 <ehird> pikhq: I imagine he hacked something up in 5 minutes before releasing it.
00:13:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, no it was much faster, at least using getopt(), but even without it, it takes 1 minute
00:13:27 <pikhq> Indicative of a poor programmer.
00:13:35 <AnMaster> GOODG:O ODD :p uDs hpeuss h500 e
00:13:35 <AnMaster> GOODG:O OMD :p uMs hpeuss h1000 e
00:13:47 <ehird> pikhq: Where is your Befunge-98 system that can run an entire IRC bot using a bunch of fingerprints and not crash?
00:15:00 <AnMaster> one thing to note. is that while the v1 segfaults on it, it don't cause memory corruption on --YS
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00:15:32 <AnMaster> however --help still crashes it
00:16:06 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/funges/interpreters/rcfunge/mterm.c:23: warning: the `gets' function is dangerous and should not be used.
00:16:14 <AnMaster> I think that proves "bad programmer"
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00:16:32 <ehird> a bad programmer would not be able to write rc/funge, stop being jerks
00:16:51 <AnMaster> #1 0x000000000040a2d4 in main (argc=2, argv=0x7fff674ca9d8, envp=0x7fff674ca9f0) at main.c:1334
00:16:51 <AnMaster> 1334 if (strcmp(argv[i],ProgName) == 0) f = 1;
00:17:16 <AnMaster> ehird, right, ehehehehe,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
00:17:33 <ehird> Let me know when you're not being insensitive assholes to Mike Riley.
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00:18:26 <AnMaster> hrrm. I wonder why he loves Mike Riley so much :/
00:18:37 <AnMaster> considering he made that MKRY himself
00:19:11 <AnMaster> possibly someone else got same name
00:20:00 <mbishop> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Riley
00:20:30 <AnMaster> mbishop, don't think it is the same person
00:20:52 <AnMaster> mbishop, nor any of those on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Riley_(disambiguation)
00:22:42 <mbishop> What does the Rc stand for?
00:22:50 <mbishop> reminds me of those rosetta code implementations
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00:26:18 <ehird> AnMaster: I am totally a fanboy because I point out you're being a fuckwit by making personal attacks. Totally.
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00:26:30 <AnMaster> I didn't make any personal attack
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00:27:22 <ehird> You repeatedly called him a bad programmer. MKRY was just a light-hearted prod at his english style.
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05:06:20 <GregorR> My home page's color scheme is now automatically generated 8-D
05:13:16 <ab5tract> can you link me to that neural net again plz
05:13:42 <GregorR> http://codu.org/colormatch/
05:13:52 <GregorR> Also see http://codu.org/ 's fancy colors ^^
05:15:47 <ab5tract> GregorR next step a restful api for grok'ng the "present scheme"
05:16:22 <pikhq> It's actually getting not all that bad results...
05:16:48 <GregorR> I haven't seen any bad results. Some are a bit ... bright, but other than that :P
05:17:31 <psygnisfive> is anyone here good with music? like, recognizing pieces, styles, etc?
05:20:59 <psygnisfive> lament, can you do me a favor and listen to a brief bit of piano music and see if you recognize it?
05:22:52 <psygnisfive> ok lemme record it off into an mp3 for you
05:29:47 <psygnisfive> this is a horribly large file for nary a minutes worth of audio, sorry: http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/dennett_piano.wav
05:33:47 <lament> psygnisfive: i don't think it's anything famous
05:34:28 <Asztal> Generated color scheme: #2E0A78, #85D70A, #F2CEBA is not particularly nice :)
05:34:41 <psygnisfive> i have music recognition resources that rely on note change directions
05:34:41 <lament> i don't think you'd find this piece anywhere.
05:34:43 <Asztal> but it's mostly pretty nice
05:34:50 <psygnisfive> oh no i think this one place would have it
05:35:01 <psygnisfive> its pretty good at recognizing random music
05:35:34 <lament> i'm not sure it was even ever published
05:35:57 <psygnisfive> all the music in this show was retrieved from free music archives
05:36:38 <psygnisfive> do you atleast have an idea of what genre, or composer?
05:36:43 <lament> it could have been a czerny study
05:37:28 <lament> genre: romantic, or imitation romantic (if it's recent)
05:37:30 <GregorR> Asztal: I've seen worse :P
05:38:05 <GregorR> Romantic era != romantic necessarily :P
05:38:15 <lament> psygnisfive: shostakovich was very very late romantic
05:38:30 <psygnisfive> i heard a shostakovich piece, ages ago, that reminded me of this
05:38:30 <lament> this is early, "normal" romantic
05:38:50 <psygnisfive> but then i looked up shostakovich and couldnt find anything
05:39:22 <lament> shostakovich is fucking amazing
05:39:33 <lament> this music is complete junk in comparison :)
05:39:40 <lament> but i think it's a study, not a real piece
05:40:33 <lament> it's pretty easy to play, you could learn it
05:41:32 <psygnisfive> and embodies a single, pure concept for me
05:41:40 <lament> i think it might be czerny
05:42:04 <psygnisfive> if it is, ill give you head whenever you want. :D
05:42:06 <lament> but that's an unlikely guess, just the best match i can think of
05:42:20 <lament> this is like a free lottery ticket :)
05:48:14 <psygnisfive> im listening to some of czerny and it sounds like it MIGHT be
05:48:56 <lament> at least it's not in any czerny i can find online
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05:55:25 <lament> but... listen to shostakovich instead :P
05:59:04 <psygnisfive> lots of people suggested it might be glass's etude 1 or so, but its not
06:00:17 <psygnisfive> its very glassy in its extreme use of high arpeggios and stranded low notes
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07:06:29 <oklopol> http://rafb.net/p/wYc8k789.html <<< if you find this hard to read, you're bad programmers
07:06:48 <oklopol> but it's clearly obfuscated
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07:26:22 <oklopol> (on second read i retract the obfuscation statement)
07:31:53 <oklopol> also doesn't ehird mock people all the time?
07:32:57 <oklopol> he /parted dramatically during my night when AnMaster was putting down Miker Riley's code
07:33:19 <oklopol> http://rafb.net/p/wYc8k789.html
07:33:33 <oklopol> not mike's code, but mike's ability to code
07:35:06 <oklopol> in my opinion the non crappy way to do that is to implement some sort of gc on top of c, write a list class and do a cut-in-half on the index of the program's name
07:35:24 <oklopol> but in actual c, i wouldn't say that's a bad way to do it
07:50:18 <fizzie> Well, the use of a fixed-width ArgV[50][80] and strcpy instead of an array of pointers and strdup or something (or just those original pointers) *is* reasonably ugly, but other than that I'm not sure what's so very wrong in the loop, or how it would be significantly improved with "continue", except that it'd remove one level of nesting.
07:51:36 <fizzie> That's a reasonably ^cho-able word.
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09:21:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, it was wrong because he knew this index 3 lines above when he parsed argumnets
09:21:50 <AnMaster> also it is the reason it crashes on "any option except -h and no program name"
09:22:15 <AnMaster> http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~ajo/funge/#Fungus <-- this looks fun
09:30:54 <oerjan> AnMaster: you've got something stuck between your teeth
09:34:40 <fungot> esotericsotericoterictericericricicc
09:34:55 <fungot> ````ccc```ccc``ccc`ccccccccc
09:36:10 <oklopol> i wanted to make REALLY INTENSE COUGH at some point, but couldn't really find a pure and beautiful way to add another continuation-related operation that made it tc
09:36:34 <oklopol> you're not doing tail recurzion
09:36:47 <oklopol> you call the program recursively
09:36:47 <fizzie> I think ais523 or someone did "too much prog" already, when I asked.
09:36:53 <oklopol> so the program stack grows
09:37:06 <fizzie> It's printed when the program length extends too much to the left.
09:37:29 <oklopol> AnMaster: different stack, that's the data stack, i mean the "call stack", kinda
09:37:57 <oklopol> although in underload it's not really a stack, but you know, it does what "the stack" usually does, holds things you'll need when returning from procedures
09:38:16 <fizzie> The ^ instruction is implemented by simply inserting the top-of-stack so that it's final character replaces the ^, and then moving the IP to the start of that string.
09:38:32 <oklopol> yes, but that's such an ugly practical way to explain it.
09:40:55 <oklopol> you need to use high-level concepts that only somewhat apply, and use technical terms like "kinda"
09:41:36 <oklopol> try { socket = new Socket( ia, port ); } catch( Exception e ) { System.out.println( e ); }
09:41:38 <oklopol> try { writer = new BufferedWriter( new OutputStreamWriter( socket.getOutputStream() ) ); } catch ( Exception e ) { System.out.println( e ); }
09:41:41 <oklopol> try { reader = new BufferedReader( new InputStreamReader( socket.getInputStream() ) ); } catch ( Exception e ) { System.out.println( e ); }
09:41:44 <oklopol> try { writer.write( "JOIN " + name + "\n" ); } catch ( Exception e ) { System.out.println( e ); }
09:41:47 <oklopol> try { writer.flush(); } catch ( Exception e ) { System.out.println( e ); }
09:42:42 <oklopol> i find exception handling bad programming style, should really wrap up the socket class into one that suppresses exceptions, or just crashes the whole program
09:43:53 <fizzie> Is there a particular reason that's not all in a single try { } block, except for the fact that now you can get some NullPointerExceptions from writer.write() and such?
09:44:45 <oklopol> after i stop doing try-catching separately for each line, i will have to start thinking what the optimal way to do that is
09:45:04 <oklopol> because i do not want to actually catch these exceptions, these blocks do not actually make any sense, so i don't want to have to think.
09:45:20 <fizzie> So it's either butt-ugly or most optimal, nothing in the middle?
09:45:27 <oklopol> they are there because java wants me to be clean.
09:45:40 <oklopol> fizzie: it needs to be perfect :)
09:45:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, a solution could be using some other language
09:45:52 <oklopol> fizzie: clean as in, handle exceptions
09:45:57 <fizzie> I wouldn't call that perfect, either.
09:46:08 <fizzie> A single catch block for all lines would be as "clean".
09:46:24 <oklopol> fizzie: syntactically cleaner, conceptually just the same
09:46:41 <AnMaster> um no, for the reason that you continue if you fail
09:47:59 <oklopol> java doesn't let me make socket suppress easily, and it doesn't let me not catch these, so i find it conceptually cleanest to surround everything with try-catches that can throw. i could, in this case, surround these with just one block
09:48:13 <oklopol> but if i added something in the middle that actually threw an exception i want to handle
09:48:29 <oklopol> then i would have to write the exception blocks around each other
09:48:50 <oklopol> and the exception handling for the socket would clutter my thinking
09:49:04 <fizzie> Personally I find it pretty ugly to do all the later lines when you already know they're just going to throw NullPointerExceptions when they refer to uninitialized cruft.
09:49:44 <oklopol> fizzie: that's thinking. you clearly don't see my point here, think i'm actually being rational? :P
09:49:55 <oklopol> thinking is not good. you shouldn't think about things that matter not.
09:49:57 <fizzie> I don't expect rationality from you, no.
09:50:15 <fizzie> Maybe you should go the other way and add "throws Throwable" to all your functions.
09:52:02 * oerjan suddenly gets "throws Smurfable" into his head
09:52:11 <fizzie> You can run all your Java code through CPP and use #define BEGIN throws Throwable {, then code your functions as void (foo) BEGIN heh(); heh(); }
09:52:48 <oklopol> then i'll need #define END }
09:52:58 <oklopol> but yeah, otherwise not such a bad idea
09:53:19 <fizzie> Maybe not; the mismatch between BEGIN and } can be an artistic statement on the class imbalance between the rich and the poor, or something.
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09:53:48 <oklopol> anyway it's not like i hate the fact java wants me to catch all exceptions, it's just when i'm writing the code in the first place, thinking about exceptions is so goddamn annoying i want to choke my computer.
09:54:06 <oklopol> fizzie: i don't like art :D
09:55:41 <oklopol> well, i guess what i want is #ifdef CLEANMODE \n #define BEGIN { \n #else #define BEGIN throws Throwable { \n #endif
09:56:59 <oklopol> but if i had to choose just one of those, it would definitely not be cleanmode, because i simply don't want to care about exceptions when writing the code, that's just clutter.
09:57:48 <oklopol> but, i guess i do like hating java, so it's not that bad.
09:58:11 <oklopol> some things i don't even like hating, they're the ones that really annoy me
09:59:27 <oklopol> plopmania, actually, he was here once, asked me how to run bootstrap_ on my bot, ran a hello world and left :P
09:59:59 <oerjan> hit and run programming
10:03:41 <oerjan> ^bf --[>-<-------]>++.----.+.+++.+.-.---.
10:03:57 <oerjan> ^bf --[>-<-------]>+.----.+.+++.+.-.---.
10:06:31 <oklopol> thutubot might be easy too
10:07:45 <oklopol> also opqrst isn't that much, but yeah i guess there are others
10:09:01 <oklopol> ^bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>.--.+.
10:09:14 <oklopol> that's probably far from an optimal 100
10:10:02 <oerjan> it may be optimal without wrapping
10:10:27 <oerjan> ^bf --[>-<+++++]>--.--.+.
10:13:13 <oklopol> ^bf +++[>+++[>+++++++++++<-]<-]>.--.+.
10:13:40 <oklopol> ^bf +++[>+++[>+++++++++++<-]<-]>>++++.--.+.
10:13:45 <oklopol> ^bf +++[>+++[>+++++++++++<-]<-]>>+.--.+.
10:15:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, what does that one mean?
10:15:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, also what do you think about this: http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~ajo/funge/#Fungus
10:16:02 <oklopol> ^bf +++++[>+++[>+++[>++<-]>+<<-]<-]>>>+++++.--.+.
10:16:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, are you anti-golfing?
10:16:37 <oklopol> i'm trying to convert math expressions to bf.
10:16:38 <oerjan> was supposed to be a raised eyebrow
10:17:54 <fungot> oklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopolok ...too much output!
10:19:14 <thutubot> oklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopoloklopol ...too much output!
10:19:29 <oklopol> ^bf >>++>>++++[<<[-<++>>+<]>[-<+>]>>-]<<[-[>++++++<-]]>++++.
10:19:31 <AnMaster> fungot seems to be a lot faster
10:19:34 <fungot> AnMaster: how's he do that
10:19:56 <oklopol> ^bf >>++>>++++[<<[-<++>>+<]>[-<+>]>-]<<[-[>++++++<-]]>++++.
10:20:01 <AnMaster> fungot, by running on cfunge I guess. However referring to yourself using "he" is strange
10:20:01 <fungot> AnMaster: there are certain " linkers" these days. send the tourists to go a single day without scheme, you wouldn't need to be
10:20:18 <oklopol> ^bf >>++>>++++[<<[-<++>>+<]>[-<+>]>-]<<[>++++++<-]>++++.
10:20:44 <oerjan> ^ul ((pol)~^(fok)~^(kok)~^)(~(oklo)~*S::a~*)~^
10:21:14 <oerjan> ^ul ((pol)~^(fok)~^(kok)~^)(~(oklo)~*S::a~*):a~*~^
10:22:41 <oklopol> ^bf >++>++++[<[-<++>]<[->+<]>>-]<[->++++++<]>++++.
10:23:06 <oklopol> ^bf >++>+++[<[-<++>]<[->+<]>>-]<[->++++++<]>++++.
10:23:12 <oklopol> ^bf >++>+++[<[-<++>]<[->+<]>>-]<[->++++++<]>++++.--.+.
10:27:44 <fizzie> Added some real spaghetti Befunge code to manage the ignore list; although it still doesn't actually ignore anything.
10:28:23 <fungot> foo baz fizzie oerjan!!!11
10:29:02 <fizzie> Unlike the command list, I bothered to write that bit which lets me remove items from the middle of the list.
10:29:49 <fizzie> Rather messy code: http://zem.fi/~fis/ignore.txt
10:30:12 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> fizzie, also what do you think about this: http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~ajo/funge/#Fungus
10:30:19 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure whether to make ^ignore an owner-only command here.
10:33:06 <fizzie> Well, you people might want to have some way of making fungot go quiet even if I'm not here.
10:33:07 <fungot> fizzie: c-a conflicts with emacs and have a look
10:33:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, well, what about someone abusing it?
10:35:33 <AnMaster> if someone would ever write a lint for funge I know the perfect name: flint
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10:36:39 <fizzie> I rather doubt that would be very much fun for anyone, but I guess I could make it owner-only. Or I could just make the ^ignore command available for ignored people too.
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10:44:00 <oklopol> err so you can revenge? :P
10:47:21 <fizzie> So you can unignore yourself.
10:47:54 <fizzie> Maybe I underestimate how much fun you could get out of that.
10:48:05 <fizzie> Should be owner-only now, unless I screwed it up.
10:49:10 <oklopol> "make the ^ignore command available for ignored people too" does sound more like letting people revenge than letting the unignore themselves, if you don't know ^ignore also unignores
10:49:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, added ignore for thutubot?
10:49:46 <oklopol> actually not exactly if it's already allowed for everyone
10:49:48 <fizzie> Owner-only, yes, and it doesn't really do anything, except manipulates that list.
10:50:11 <fizzie> The actual ignoring part does not happen yet.
10:50:46 <oklopol> mutable list? that's so cool
10:51:03 <fizzie> oklopol: Did you check out the implementation: http://zem.fi/~fis/ignore.txt
10:51:30 <oklopol> fizzie: i can't exactly read befunge anyway; i've only written one program in it, and i haven't read even one program in it
10:51:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, run that graph program of yours
10:52:44 <fizzie> (6,1) has the "current output length" value.
10:52:55 <oklopol> "derongi toN" :D god i love s0gnirts
10:53:08 <fizzie> So 61g:c+61p3P appends 12 characters of output.
10:53:08 <oklopol> (the plural suffix is a prefix for gnirts right?)
10:53:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, um it is string backwards
10:53:26 <oklopol> AnMaster: no, i can't read malbolge
10:53:35 <fizzie> I've seen people write it "gnirtses".
10:53:43 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes that's the joke
10:53:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah I end up doing that
10:53:44 <fizzie> But I guess that's a bit boring.
10:54:59 <AnMaster> oh and that fungus use elf for file format
10:55:15 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/ignore.png
10:55:15 <AnMaster> so readelf works on it, though it gives strange values
10:56:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, that graph seems to be missing parts?
10:56:21 <oklopol> desrever si gnirts eht nehw xiferp a semoceb xiffus larulp eht si ekoj eht
10:57:02 <fizzie> The others are not "real instructions", it's implied by the edges.
10:57:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, why does it quit in various places?
10:57:58 <fizzie> Because I had to add something there to prevent wrapping.
10:58:09 <fizzie> Those go outside the ignore.txt parts to other areas of fungot.
10:58:09 <fungot> fizzie: if you write an alternative implementation of syntax-case
10:59:14 <fizzie> There are some silly parts, like the node with only a "0" in it and true/false edges leading out.
10:59:20 <fizzie> It will always take the 'false' edge.
10:59:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, it got three exit points?
11:00:43 <AnMaster> as in Content-addressable memory
11:00:58 <AnMaster> would actually be searching inside the interpreter
11:01:05 <fizzie> Yes, it's got three @ nodes, which is pretty strange, given that there are only two @s in the program.
11:01:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, or would that be cheating?
11:02:45 <fizzie> Oh, right: it has three separate @ nodes, because that one @ is entered both from the left side and from bottom; it won't merge those into same node. Oh-well, a minor issue.
11:03:43 <fizzie> And I guess it might be a bit un-Befungeish to move that sort of stuff into the interpreter. I have some pangs of conscience even now for using STRN so much.
11:04:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, so if I made a fingerprint for it, you wouldn't use it?
11:04:45 <fizzie> I'm not sure. I might not use it.
11:04:55 <fizzie> On the other hand I'm pretty lazy.
11:21:19 <fizzie> There's a slight bug in cfunge's REXP.
11:22:42 <fizzie> If you specify the REG_NOSUB flag, the 'regexec' function ignores the nmatch and pmatch arguments, and since the 'matches' array is not initialized to be empty, it pushes 128 empty strings on stack.
11:24:15 <fizzie> "PXER"4($$0"oof"4C0"oof"0E.a,@ prints out 128; it should (arguably) print 0.
11:27:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, so lets see what you meant...
11:28:25 <AnMaster> "is not initialized" <-- valgrind doesn't complain
11:28:40 <fizzie> Well, is not initialized to be empty.
11:28:56 <fizzie> Obviously it's initialized to zeroes, since it's a static thing.
11:29:31 <fizzie> But your push_results is testing for rm_so != -1.
11:29:59 <fizzie> Or something like that, anyway; haven't looked at it closely enough, but it does push 128 strings in there.
11:30:23 <fizzie> My regexec man page says it completely ignores nmatch/pmatch with NOSUB.
11:30:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, however it may take a few minutes to fix since I don't remember the API
11:30:53 <AnMaster> got to re-read the man page first
11:31:38 <fizzie> Well, I did work-around it already. Actually I'm not quite sure what REXP's "E" *should* do when the expression uses NOSUB; either push a single zero, or alternatively push nothing.
11:32:11 <AnMaster> well it shouldn't be 128 strings
11:32:49 * AnMaster adds a static bool compiled_nosub
11:33:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, tell me what it should do instead :)
11:34:24 <fizzie> I'm not sure. If you just look at the REXP doc in rcfunge manual, it says "E leaves the results of the match as a series of 0gnirts strings. Each string representing the matched portion of a substring. Top of stack will have the count of these 0gnirts strings." in which case the most logical thing would be to push a zero count.
11:34:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, what does rc/funge does on NOSUB?
11:35:41 <fizzie> AnMaster: Uh... pushes 100 empty strings plus the number 100, I think.
11:35:57 <AnMaster> well that is because it has 100 static matches
11:35:57 <fizzie> It has a very similar implementation to yours, at least on a quick glance.
11:36:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, well iirc rc/funge is per-ip compiled
11:37:20 <AnMaster> 156 compiled_nosub = (flags & FUNGE_REG_NOSUB);
11:37:20 <AnMaster> (gdb) print (flags & FUNGE_REG_NOSUB)
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11:38:00 <AnMaster> (gdb) print (flags & FUNGE_REG_NOSUB) == true
11:38:00 <AnMaster> (gdb) print (flags & FUNGE_REG_NOSUB) == false
11:38:05 <optbot> fizzie: We can't prove two things to be the same, sure.
11:38:07 <AnMaster> what the heck was going on there
11:39:00 <optbot> fungot: http://pastebin.ca/932888
11:39:07 <fizzie> No more fancy-loops. :/
11:40:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, um I get "BAD: TOS was not 1" from Mike's rexp.f98
11:40:55 <AnMaster> it doesn't say so if I let it push 128 strings instead
11:41:41 <oklopol> fizzie: does java have a join of some sort?
11:42:15 <AnMaster> oklopol, java.too.long.namespace.name.os.system.execte("ghci")?
11:42:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: rexp.f98 seems to compile all regexps with flags==1, so any change in behaviour that affects only REG_NOSUB'd things shouldn't affect it.
11:43:57 <fizzie> oklopol: What, to concatenate strings?
11:45:35 <fizzie> My first instinct for string-joining would just be StringBuilder sb = new StringBuilder(); for (String s : collection) sb.append(s); sb.toString(); which looks very Javay. Waiting for further instructions.
11:46:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, either I get your test program working or I get rexp.f98 working
11:46:52 <AnMaster> are you sure your test program is actually correct?
11:46:57 <oklopol> yeah that works. it's just that's a bit ugly; i'll probably inherit a joinable container from arraylist then...
11:47:23 <fizzie> oklopol: It's more than a bit ugly, but I don't think the built-in containers (or String class) has any very helpful methods.
11:48:16 <oklopol> god i wish java had less support for all that io shit, and more algorithmical support i would actually have use for
11:48:27 <fizzie> AnMaster: Of course not, but really, if you change things so that the behaviour differs only when the C command has the NOSUB flag, I don't see how it could alter rexp.f98 results at all.
11:48:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I suspect your program doesn't set NOSUB, I'm not sure
11:48:59 <oklopol> i don't know what the standard classes contain exactly, the list is too long to read
11:49:09 <oklopol> but most of it seems quite useless
11:49:11 <fizzie> I don't see how 4C *wouldn't*.
11:49:31 <oklopol> perhaps i'll use a stringbuilder for now, i guess i just need this one join.
11:49:40 <AnMaster> I was confusing different types of flags
11:49:46 <AnMaster> as in funge flags and system flags
11:50:00 <oklopol> (i do like the idea of SequenceJoinerFactory though)
11:50:29 <fizzie> oklopol: They've got String.split(String regex), that's at least something.
11:50:39 <oklopol> yeah, that was a nice addition
11:52:46 <fizzie> Should save those ignores in the state-file, currently they're non-persistent.
11:52:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, fix (push a single 0) pushed
11:53:45 <AnMaster> so you can update your copy if you want
11:54:07 <AnMaster> now I hope to get around to making that release soonj
11:54:34 <fizzie> Okay. I'll try to remember to maybe clean out my workaround (not use NOSUB and just discard the useless match-string) when I next update. Although then it won't run correctly on rc/funge with ignores.
11:55:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, well report a bug to rc/funge author
11:56:49 <fizzie> Don't know about that.
12:00:17 <fizzie> I think fungot should work just fine even if "PXER"4( reflects, it just won't process the ignores.
12:00:18 <fungot> fizzie: huh. people are evil. blogs cause conservative canadian governments. i know 2. that's obvious and you did refer to a certain class of bad things/ alone
12:00:46 <fizzie> fungot: You're starting to sound like a paranoid person, you know.
12:02:04 <fungot> AnMaster: but i wanna try debian some day... of course. it's pure space opera. but as i got out
12:03:30 <fizzie> fungot: You're actually running in a Debian system right now.
12:03:30 <fungot> fizzie: i'm familiar with
12:03:39 <fizzie> fungot: Well, I guess you would be.
12:03:40 <fungot> fizzie: that's how i managed it, and the oft-cited horror film fnord a wonderful life_, are noteworthy examples of works accidentally committed to the festive mode.
12:04:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, how would you interpret THAT?
12:04:42 <fizzie> I don't really know; I guess it got all confused.
12:05:46 <fizzie> Though "fnord a wonderful life" does sound like it'd be a quite scary film.
12:08:53 <oklopol> pointers for befunge maybe?
12:10:18 <oklopol> (and that was a joke, AnMaster :P stupidity is not my only thing, i also make jokes!)
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12:16:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | base-3 is actually fairly feasible... -1, 0, 1 corresponding to the polarity of the volts..
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12:22:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm preparing 0.3.3 release
13:18:31 <fizzie> Come to think of it, I could've done a lot simpler ignoration thing by simply using a single ignore regex instead of a list of them; and then I wouldn't need to compile all those regexs every time someone speaks to the bot.
13:55:13 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(optbot|thutubot)!
13:57:13 <fizzie> Where did it get "112" from? I don't think translate_return_C should be even capable of giving out that number.
13:57:58 <fizzie> There must be a bug in my code.
13:58:22 <fizzie> Oh, right, it doesn't have REXP loaded because that's done in the initialization now.
13:58:28 <fizzie> ^raw QUIT :let's just restart
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13:59:06 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(optbot|thutubot)!
13:59:13 <fungot> fizzie: this new jpeg after ' jpegtran -rotate 270' and switching 1600/ 1200 in gs invocation is actually pretty nice.
13:59:18 <fungot> H7zzi=: its working over here. :-p so, i load the usb module.
13:59:45 <fizzie> Interesting errors, though.
13:59:46 <fungot> fizzie: bucket sort... in bancstar.
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14:00:11 <fizzie> Back to the drawing-board with it.
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14:16:12 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(optbot|thutubot)!
14:16:12 <optbot> fizzie: I can't decide if I should make 0x00 short for current outfile, 0x01 current infile, 0x02 stdout, 0x03 stdin
14:16:22 <fizzie> Now it should be okay.
14:16:28 <fizzie> fungot: Do you feel fine?
14:16:28 <fungot> fizzie: tell me when you find it. i doubt the basic design on paper in the bus.
14:16:45 <fizzie> It also seems to be doing the ignoration.
14:18:25 <fizzie> ^def help ul (^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^bool)S
14:19:19 <fizzie> Decided to do the ^help command that way for easier modification. Hopefully no-one will override it with anything silly.
14:22:03 <fungot> AnMaster: or someone did
14:22:06 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help
14:22:14 <optbot> AnMaster: but that's a result of very little operator overloading - most operators do a very specific thing.
14:46:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, cfunge 0.3.3 is released
14:49:46 <fizzie> I suppose there's not much difference between releases and bzr-pulled copies?
14:50:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, not really, there were some typo fixes, updated version number, updated changelog
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15:10:57 <ehird> make ^ignore and ^unignore available to all unignored people
15:11:06 <ehird> but let you only ignore one person every 5 minutes
15:11:17 <ehird> impossible to take over ze world, but nicely anarchistic
15:12:20 <fizzie> Well, I took the lazy way and just added a single owner-configurable ignoramation regex.
15:12:33 <ehird> fizzie: what about when you are away and co2games comes here ;-P
15:13:56 <optbot> ehird: then I was told you can't use input
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15:15:19 <fizzie> Bot-loop preventamation was, I think, the whole point of ignorey.
15:15:31 <ehird> fizzie: But optbot/fungot conversations are wonderful
15:15:31 <optbot> ehird: i assume you understand i'm just representing a part of the main array python-tsyle?
15:15:32 <fungot> ehird: gauche now supports wrights matcher, right sarahbot? :p). can i do
15:16:21 -!- ehird has changed nick to optbot_feels_rej.
15:16:27 <optbot> optbot_feels_rej: Bullshit
15:16:35 <optbot> optbot_feels_rej: but I think that's kind of cheating :P
15:16:39 <fungot> optbot_feels_rej: code got borken somewhere. melody of oblivion?
15:16:39 <optbot> optbot_feels_rej: If you can mark a function as, say, never being jumped into.
15:16:40 <optbot> fungot: at least it proves you aren't the first one to make that mistake
15:16:45 <optbot> optbot_feels_rej: HQ9+ is just as fully functional; it's been implemented
15:16:48 <optbot> optbot_feels_rej: my monitor plugs into my USB port...
15:17:00 <optbot> optbot_feels_rej: afternoon.
15:17:00 <optbot> fungot: "x", [[:apply, ["x", "y"], []]]]]
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17:03:39 <ehird> http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/news08.html NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
17:04:08 <ehird> [[Instead of writing personal checks, I'll write personal certificates of deposit to each awardee's account at the Bank of San Serriffe, which is an offshore institution that has branches in Blefuscu and Elbonia on the planet Pincus.]]
17:09:15 <GregorR> Hahaha, "It turns out that only 9 of the first 275 checks that I've sent out since the beginning of 2006 have actually been cashed. The others have apparently been cached."
17:09:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, what do you get for pointing out a typo on that page ;)
17:10:06 <AnMaster> ehird, remember I'm not a native speaker
17:10:07 <ehird> Note to self: Check for AnMaster before linking to any joke.
17:10:15 <GregorR> ehird: http://codu.org/ is now themed by my color matcher!
17:10:38 <ehird> GregorR: when you first said that i thought you meant each load
17:10:47 <ehird> A DIRTY COMMUNIST LIEFJDSKF
17:10:58 <GregorR> Uh, it is done each load, it's just cached in a cookie.
17:11:05 <GregorR> If you want to refresh it just use the menu.
17:11:11 <ehird> MAKE IT CHANGE EACH TIME
17:11:22 <GregorR> I didn't want the theme to change as you navigated the page :P
17:11:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, is that box different in colour at the top and the bottom?
17:11:35 <AnMaster> also it change on each load for me
17:11:35 <GregorR> AnMaster: Yeah, it has a gradient.
17:11:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Welcome to 1997
17:11:39 <ehird> it's called a GRADIENT
17:11:43 <ehird> also, welcome to paranoia
17:11:43 <GregorR> AnMaster: You must have cookies disabled.
17:12:02 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I just didn't remember the English word........
17:12:13 <ehird> GregorR: remove the cookies
17:12:20 <GregorR> People who don't have cookies enabled will have a much more ... colorful experience on this site :P
17:12:35 <AnMaster> GregorR, and it doesn't work with javascript off ;P
17:13:01 <ehird> i've given up complaining because you have a vocabulary of 30 things, 29 of which are annoying.
17:13:05 <ehird> i haven't seen the 30th in person yet.
17:13:38 <AnMaster> ehird, and I thank you for your help with funge recently
17:14:01 <ehird> AnMaster: which consists of "repeating fizzie's and ais523's lines because you didn't listen the first time"?
17:15:36 <AnMaster> well the idea about not using linked-list style hash
17:15:51 <GregorR> AnMaster: With JS off it will now give a good default theme, rather than drab white-on-black.
17:16:00 <GregorR> And by "now" I mean "when I upload it" :P
17:16:10 <AnMaster> GregorR, um it gave me black on black?
17:16:23 <GregorR> <GregorR> And by "now" I mean "when I upload it" :P
17:16:40 <AnMaster> GregorR, oh I thought you meant *white box* on black page
17:17:15 <AnMaster> "No JavaScript? Click here to disable the JavaScript menu."
17:17:17 <ehird> GregorR: 5 amelican moneys for no cookie
17:17:31 <ehird> GregorR: I will kill you if you don't then
17:17:43 <GregorR> AnMaster: ORLY? I haven't looked at that in a long time :P
17:18:19 <AnMaster> well I usually have a noscript exception for you site, because of your interesting projects
17:18:50 <ehird> GregorR: ok, here's my idea:
17:18:56 <AnMaster> GregorR, how goes jsmips then?
17:19:06 <GregorR> AnMaster: Haven't updated it in a while.
17:19:18 <ehird> GregorR: all non-main page pages cache in cookie
17:19:20 <ehird> but the main page doesn't
17:19:30 <AnMaster> ehird, well you asked me to turn on cookies/javascripts lots of times, so why can't I ask you to turn it *OFF* for once :P
17:20:03 <ehird> 'cuz having them off is silly
17:20:22 <GregorR> AnMaster: Hmmmm, seems that somethings wonky about the PHP on this server ...
17:20:30 <ehird> GregorR: http://codu.org/dcvogllmrcmcdp.ogg this would be a good OS startup sound
17:20:34 <ehird> if it made you listen to it all before starting
17:21:32 <ehird> AnMaster: that's because you suck
17:21:57 <AnMaster> ehird, well your niceness yesterday didn't last that long. :P
17:22:05 <ehird> you started being annoying again
17:22:15 <AnMaster> ehird, hey wrong, *you* started ;P
17:22:27 <ehird> /ignore AnMaster. Problem solved.
17:23:04 <ehird> GregorR: add a 'generate two non-matches'
17:23:39 <AnMaster> cookie stored option, that lets you select "random every time"
17:24:11 <AnMaster> GregorR, what do you think about that way?
17:26:13 <ehird> GregorR: how does nojs.php even work?
17:26:19 <ehird> some weird transformation?
17:26:40 <GregorR> AnMaster: Yeah, that'd probably work *shrugs*
17:26:51 <ehird> GregorR: also, why not just use a <noscript> tag :P
17:26:55 <GregorR> AnMaster: I just don't really want people to be able to mega-ugly my site with a cookie :P
17:27:30 <AnMaster> GregorR, what if it happens to be ugly random that get fixed currently? So far all randomly generated ones seems quite ok
17:27:34 <GregorR> AnMaster: Mind you, they could set their colorscheme cookie to something horrible, but at least that takes some skill. Being able to click "Make my page give you seizures" would be a bit worse :)
17:27:51 <ehird> on the contrary, every page should be able to give you seizures.
17:27:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, "always random match"
17:28:19 <GregorR> Just that having the matches change every time you click a link = blech.
17:28:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, didn't find it that bad
17:28:51 <oerjan> <GregorR> AnMaster: I just don't really want people to be able to mega-ugly my site with a cookie :P
17:29:07 <oerjan> hey what if i hack the cookie to make it pink on green? :D
17:29:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, "<GregorR> AnMaster: Mind you, they could set their colorscheme cookie to something horrible, but at least that takes some skill. Being able to click "Make my page give you seizures" would be a bit worse :)"
17:29:21 <oerjan> (not that i know how to do that, but still...)
17:30:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: you cannot expect me to read to the bottom of the screen before commenting. then i would have forgotten to comment...
17:30:45 <oerjan> short attention spans FTW
17:32:50 <oerjan> also i did find an orange/green combination that the match test accepted...
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17:39:51 <oerjan> 1. orange 2. green, it wasn't too picky
17:40:01 <oerjan> however it only accepted in that order
17:41:15 <ehird> oerjan: it's non-symmetrically
17:49:19 <oerjan> #907020 #FF9040 or thereabouts
17:50:46 <AnMaster> logically colour matching is really symmetric but it could be hard to implement with that neural network thingy
17:51:55 <GregorR> I gave it a symmetrical data set and hoped for the best.
17:51:59 <GregorR> Also, orange and green do go together :P
17:52:12 <AnMaster> GregorR, depends on what exact shades
17:52:24 <oerjan> some coordinate change should be able to identify symmetrical cases
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17:53:12 <asiekierka> Should i make a ternary programming language?
17:53:20 <AnMaster> GregorR, a bug I think, the colour match page itself got light text colour and dark bg
17:53:30 <AnMaster> GregorR, however in the colour picker that is used too on white bg
17:53:40 <AnMaster> GregorR, result: unreadable text in colour picker
17:53:53 <AnMaster> says "Generated color scheme: #0B1613, #79F9C5, #5DCC3A" at the bottom of the page
17:54:24 <AnMaster> GregorR, that just fails terribly in colour picking
17:55:38 <oerjan> asiekierka: ternary should be trits, not bits
17:56:29 <asiekierka> So that basically means a negative value, a zero value, and a positive value
17:56:34 <oerjan> 9 trits gives -19683 to 19683
17:57:32 <oerjan> hm with -1,0,1 trits? don't know
17:57:47 <asiekierka> But why should i use trits for memory?
17:58:00 <asiekierka> Basically, trits and some special chars (for loops) are the only way to output stuff
17:58:20 <asiekierka> You separate commands with | or a spaced
17:58:47 <asiekierka> This program will decrase the value at the current position until it's <0
17:59:05 <AnMaster> GregorR, so see the colour picker issue?
17:59:45 <asiekierka> Basically, the "," command separator is "normal"
18:00:08 <asiekierka> "." command separator means "move using <cell> and put input there"
18:00:26 <asiekierka> ":" command separator means "output this value and move using <cell>"
18:00:49 <asiekierka> Yes, the separators are tri-state, therefore they can be described as trits too
18:00:50 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you plan to implement this yourself I hope?
18:01:06 <asiekierka> It's easy to make a TritLang->BF converter
18:01:26 <AnMaster> asiekierka, sure no one has done some ternary funge before?
18:02:02 <oerjan> there is ternary INTERCAL
18:02:33 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 357 for ternary brainfuck. (0.32 seconds)
18:02:45 <asiekierka> And you can move AND do i/o in one command
18:02:55 <oerjan> for memory values, brainfuck really has no actual base, just a range of values
18:03:30 <asiekierka> I am thinking about writing values as "-", "=", and "+", respectively for -1, 0 and 1.
18:03:45 <asiekierka> So you could do, instead of -1,-1, "-,-"
18:04:13 <asiekierka> and the other stuff can be done with BF algo's already
18:04:44 <AnMaster> <oerjan> hm with -1,0,1 trits? don't know <asiekierka> Trits there would be 0, 1, 2 <-- Balanced ternary....
18:05:08 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_ternary
18:05:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's in the topic really
18:05:25 <AnMaster> asiekierka, so it is ternary, balanced ternary to be specific
18:05:36 <asiekierka> And basically it's close to a ternary BF
18:06:10 <AnMaster> asiekierka, would be more interesting to base it on boolfuck
18:06:50 <asiekierka> But it's BoolF**k with negative values, so what's the point
18:07:39 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you said it was so close to brainfuck anyway?
18:07:49 <AnMaster> and boolfuck is really really close to brainfuck
18:08:08 <asiekierka> and TritF**k is really close to BoolF**k
18:08:18 <AnMaster> you can convert brainfuck to boolfuck with simple text replacement
18:08:31 <AnMaster> asiekierka, your would be as close to brainfuck wouldn't it?
18:08:41 <GregorR> For some reason "tritfuck" sounds far dirtier than "boolfuck"
18:08:58 <asiekierka> That's the second reason i'm scrapping it
18:08:59 <AnMaster> GregorR, what did you think about the colour issue I mentioned?
18:09:22 <asiekierka> and there's already ten thousand BF deriatives
18:09:40 <GregorR> AnMaster: I have no idea what you mean :P
18:09:59 <GregorR> Haven't found a fix since I didn't write the picker.
18:10:16 <AnMaster> GregorR, use a different class in css?
18:12:25 <GregorR> AnMaster: Maybe your browser is caching the .css file?
18:12:42 <GregorR> AnMaster: Load http://codu.org/colormatch/js_color_picker_v2.css manually
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18:13:36 <AnMaster> GregorR, it thinks #FFFFFF doesn't match #FFFFFF
18:13:56 <GregorR> AnMaster: It doesn't think that identical colors match, and I believe the reason is because very close colors /don't/ match.
18:14:09 <GregorR> AnMaster: And it's difficult to special-case in a neural net :P
18:14:19 <AnMaster> GregorR, also it fails to display #000000 as light grey!?
18:14:25 <AnMaster> for page "Generated color scheme: #2F151C, #C2B12D, #E2FA9C"
18:14:40 <AnMaster> colour 1 #FFFFFF, colour 2 #000000
18:15:15 <GregorR> I blame the fact that JavaScript is weird sometimes :P
18:15:26 <AnMaster> basically for a while black had same colour as the frame around the colours
18:16:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | cxuriuous.
18:17:24 <oerjan> cxuriusity killed the cxat
18:18:32 <GregorR> I'm cxuriuous about where that quote came from.
18:18:50 <GregorR> Hm, *GRK* is a transposition of my initials, that's weird :P
18:18:58 <GregorR> I mean, uh, dead people don't talk.
18:19:10 <optbot> lament: IPC, internet, etc
18:20:12 <ehird> 08.01.27:08:31:19 <ehird> cxuriuous
18:20:14 <ehird> there be your source
18:20:31 <ehird> 08:30:13 <useless_bot> I'm a silly bot, and I _love_ cheese!
18:20:31 <ehird> 08:30:38 --- part: useless_bot left #esoteric
18:20:32 <ehird> 08:30:56 <ehird> let me guess
18:20:32 <ehird> 08:31:02 <ehird> asiekerka or whoever did that
18:20:32 <ehird> 08:31:15 <ehird> wait, no
18:20:32 <ehird> 08:31:15 <ehird> .fi
18:20:34 <ehird> 08:31:19 <ehird> cxuriuous
18:24:05 <GregorR> So, anybody else gonna use my autoschemer? ^^
18:24:12 <GregorR> All F/OSS! Available for any web site! :)
18:25:43 <ehird> GregorR: yes, i will
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19:25:46 <oklopol> i haven't been on the computer for ages, and my bots are always useful
19:27:47 <ehird> that was from the logs
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20:22:07 <oklopol> jix: whatever you're doing, that's not the optimal way
20:22:20 <oklopol> tell me what you're doing and i shall tell you a better one
20:22:40 <jix> i just lost the game
20:23:15 <oklopol> jix: how about winning it?
20:23:29 <jix> but you can't tell me how to win it
20:23:45 <oklopol> yeah, basically you take seven eggs, and make an omelet
20:23:55 <oklopol> then you drive far away from your mortal home
20:24:08 <oklopol> you'll never think about that game again.
20:24:29 <jix> that won't work
20:24:43 <oklopol> (while it's not written in the rules, a little known fact is you win the game if you manage to die before losing in it)
20:25:01 <ais523> oklopol: I thought you won the Game if you died during the grace period after losing
20:25:04 <ais523> i.e. died thinking about it
20:25:25 <ehird> just make a basilisk image that says THE GAME
20:25:44 <ais523> also, there's a variant rule that you win if you get a particular famous person to publically acknowledge that the Game exists
20:25:47 <oklopol> ais523: i was thinking more like, you win if you've forgotten it well enough that someone telling you they lost doesn't make you remember the game anymore
20:25:54 <ais523> normally the Queen of England is the named person
20:26:23 <oklopol> that would fit the rules better, that famous-person thing may be a fun rule, but it doesn't make much sense
20:27:09 <ehird> you win the game if you don't lose it
20:32:21 <ais523> no, that's only slightly zen
20:32:26 <ais523> very zen would be you win the game if fish
20:33:04 <ehird> that's not zen, that's dada.
20:33:38 <ehird> i found a way to defeat the game
20:33:44 <ehird> ais523: oklopol jix like REALLY
20:34:44 <ehird> Here are the rules to Not the Game:
20:34:45 <ehird> 1. You can start playing or stop playing Not the Game by announcing you do.
20:34:45 <ehird> 2. If you are playing Not the Game, you are not playing The Game.
20:34:48 <ehird> I start playing Not the Game.
20:34:56 <ehird> TASTE SOME OF YOUR OWN MEDICINE THE GAME
20:36:24 <jix> but if you aren't playing the game you lost it anyway
20:36:51 <ehird> the game specifies, as rule "You are playing the Game"
20:36:55 <ehird> that means that rules of games can reach out from themselves and affect others
20:36:58 <ehird> therefore, Not the Game uses the same mechanism to suspend playing of the Game
20:37:06 <ehird> no longer must you lose and thus announce your loss
20:37:08 <ehird> you are truly free
20:37:13 <ais523> ehird: that's clever, only a true nomic player would have thought up that
20:37:43 <ehird> ais523: what about precedence?
20:37:46 <ehird> maybe the game has power infinite
20:38:00 <ais523> ehird: create a new game to define precedence between other games
20:38:06 <ais523> remember, only games you're playing count in defining things
20:38:14 <ais523> and neither of the ones you're playing set precedence yet
20:38:17 <ehird> I stop playing Not the Game.
20:38:38 <ais523> ehird: anyway, where do the announcements go? Agora-business?
20:38:49 <ehird> ais523: same place the Game announcements go
20:38:53 <ehird> it just says that loss must be announced
20:39:08 <ehird> so, essentially, you have to transmit it in a way that someone else gets it
20:39:37 <ehird> Here are the new rules to Not the Game:
20:39:38 <ehird> 1. You can start playing or stop playing Not the Game by announcing you do.
20:39:38 <ehird> 2. If you are playing Not the Game, you are not playing The Game.
20:39:38 <ehird> 3. Not the Game takes precedence over every other game, including games (apart
20:39:39 <ehird> from Not the Game) that specify other rules of precedence.
20:39:42 <ehird> I start playing Not the Game.
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21:20:47 <ehird> who puns apart from oerjan
21:26:17 <ais523> but I'm nowhere near as good as oerjan
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21:52:21 <Deewiant> ehird: doesn't rule 3 break if you're playing two games of Not the Game concurrently
21:52:47 <Deewiant> or do we get to be practical and say that it doesn't matter which one takes precedence :-P
22:10:51 <psygnisfive> can i just say that mandarin has some very trivial yet interesting scoping devices?
22:10:54 <Deewiant> ehird: is that a 'yes' to both? :-P
22:11:01 <ehird> Deewiant: no, the former doesn't
22:11:07 <ehird> (apart from Not the Game)
22:11:57 <Deewiant> ehird: yes, so both Not the Games secede precedence to the other, which one wins :-P
22:12:10 <ais523> a third Not the Game which takes precedence over both of them
22:12:13 <Deewiant> hmm, secede isn't the word I was looking for
22:12:37 <psygnisfive> we should come up with some good scope things. :|
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22:14:47 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 'Nuff said..
22:21:18 <ais523> AnMaster: I was going to ask you how to do CFLAGS on CMake
22:21:25 <ais523> but I found the answer by googling, in the end
22:21:32 <ais523> trying to help someone in another channel...
22:22:28 <AnMaster> ais523, it is easy to check in CMakeLists.txt
22:22:36 <AnMaster> ais523, I check if the compiler supports it for each flag
22:22:57 <ais523> I'm trying to deal with a badly set up CMake-based project
22:23:00 <ais523> with a buggy build system
22:23:38 <ehird> one sided conversations rock
22:23:59 <AnMaster> ais523, oh yes ehird is ignoring me iirc
22:24:26 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, ok, I wonder why?
22:24:33 <ais523> you seemed to be getting on quite well yesterday...
22:24:33 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I'm around for about half an hour (or max 1 hour) if you want help
22:24:44 <ais523> no need to go past the maximum
22:25:03 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, not sure why, I think I said Mike Riley was a bad programmer, after reading his main.c
22:25:16 <ais523> ah yes, I remember from logreading now
22:25:24 <ais523> IMO, most programmers are bad programmers
22:25:43 <AnMaster> ais523, well, but some try to debug their code.
22:25:52 <lament> Most bad programmers are programmers.
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22:26:43 <AnMaster> ais523, I certainly make mistakes, and that is why I make sure to use every damn tool I can think of to test
22:26:51 <ehird> ais523: it's lament
22:26:53 <ehird> everything he says is zen
22:27:00 <AnMaster> I would have used unit tests except mycology really fulfill that
22:27:06 <GregorR> Well there's your problem.
22:27:13 <GregorR> If you just don't make mistakes, it's easier.
22:27:32 <Asztal> well, unit tests are slightly easier to write and maintain than mycology, I imagine ;)
22:27:53 <AnMaster> Asztal, But it is hard to unit test a funge interpreter
22:28:51 <Asztal> yeah, my tests (which I broke and can't be bothered fixing yet) just test really basic stuff, which mycology finds really easily anyway
22:30:07 <AnMaster> Asztal, however I use coverage tests + mycology
22:30:18 <AnMaster> finds what code paths it *didn't* test
22:30:31 <AnMaster> and allows me to write short test program for those
22:31:04 <AnMaster> now this is kind of messy with cfunge since gcov and cmake seem to have some hate-hate relationship
22:31:33 <AnMaster> I just start the built in webtool server in erlang and control the coverage check from my browser :D
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22:50:58 <oklopol> psygnisfive: well tell us about them.
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23:00:34 <oklopol> is it halloween or something?
23:00:53 <oklopol> (halloween was the TOT one right?)
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23:02:06 <ais523> oklopol: yes, Halloween is the trick or treat one
23:03:28 <psygnisfive> very clean, simple linear mapping to scope
23:04:37 <psygnisfive> but unlike english, there doesnt seem to be any equivalent version
23:05:56 <psygnisfive> and the idea of quantifier-negation-predicate couplings like this is cool
23:08:10 <psygnisfive> because 'all not P' has the semantics \X.(Ax<-X.-P(x)). but 'all P' is just \X.(Ax<-X.P(x)) and 'not P' is \x.-P(x)
23:08:30 <psygnisfive> so somehow this composition stuff embeds the functions or something
23:09:03 <psygnisfive> its cool, in funky ways, that we should do in a language
23:09:25 <psygnisfive> we should have weird composition stuff with predicates, quantification, and negation and stuff
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01:05:36 <ehird> thank comex for the lack of optbot
01:06:46 -!- optbot has joined.
01:06:46 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ~exec self.register_raw(r"\S+ PRIVMSG #esoteric :!fake (.*)", lambda x, r: bot.raw("PRIVMSG EgoBot :!say Fake EgoBot command: %s" % (r.group(1)[::-1] + " too!"))).
01:06:47 <optbot> the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ~exec self.register_raw(r"\S+: But I end up control+alt+deleting after a few seconds
01:07:15 <optbot> ehird: latex isn't hard
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02:22:36 <uoris_> optbot, how do I say you in Lojban?
02:22:36 <optbot> uoris_: put 1000 cans of rotting tuna fish into the mixing bowl.
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02:23:52 <uoris_> optbot, is it okay if I write that as putuantauzandkanzofratintunaficintudamiksinbol.?
02:23:52 <optbot> uoris_: and it's auto-generated code anyway
02:24:07 <uoris_> Oh, auto-generated. I don't want to mess with that.
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02:30:57 <comex> ~exec self.register_raw(r"\S+ PRIVMSG #esoteric :!fake (.*)", lambda x, r: bot.raw("PRIVMSG EgoBot :!say Fake EgoBot command: %s" % (r.group(1)[::-1] + " too!")))
02:31:28 <psygnisfive> 'putuantauzandkanzofratintunaficintudamiksinbol'
02:31:41 <psygnisfive> it sounds like its a verb from a polysynthetic language
02:37:41 <psygnisfive> we should make a polysynthetic programming languag
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04:07:49 <fungot> i am fungot. am fungot.am fungot.m fungot. fungot.fungot.ungot.ngot.got.ot.t..
04:08:01 <immibis> ^cho i am fungot.i am fungot.i am fungot.i am fungot.
04:08:01 <fungot> i am fungot.i am fungot.i am fungot.i am fungot. am fungot.i am fungot.i am fungot.i am fungot.am fungot.i am fungot.i am fungot.i am fungot.m fungot.i am fungot.i am fungot.i am fungot. fungot.i am fungot.i ...
04:09:05 <optbot> immibis: It's a fibonacci function
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06:22:02 <optbot> ab5tract: we are handle decreased the daily newspaper of the first boat splendourful, [[“iynfwrm' ayshnsbwryfyk' ayshndyrktyfn]]. This traction outside of ours street, initially examined in the team [[hystwryn]], garden, request for divine the blessings the clean dish. [“ammnt] the truth causes complexes [[, the jam of the pain of the mwtsGnd]] with the all workmen, when it flowers. Us it country of the family of the state of the family of the idea
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08:53:29 <Jiminy_Cricket> f would also work, it makes a word following both o and i :)
08:57:48 <Asztal> I seem to have put my linker into an infinite loop. :(
08:58:03 <oklopol> how many links do you have?
08:58:33 <oklopol> i mean i don't have anything against links, but, well, too many links is just too many links.
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12:52:36 <ais523> +ul (fungot, ignoring thutubot nowadays?)S
12:52:37 <fungot> ais523: because otherwise sed discards the last line of his song " there is currently no service on the planet of course it does. it does neither well. or was i hallucinating
13:06:36 <ehird> ais523: yes, unfortunately
13:06:38 <optbot> ehird: sometimes news and thats it
13:06:44 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Befunge.
13:07:01 <ehird> optbot: how languagecentric
13:07:01 <optbot> ehird: likewise when a thread backtracks, it will be killed unless no other threads survive at the fork() that created it
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13:12:41 <AnMaster> (will be back in around 1 hour or so at most)
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15:02:15 <GregorR> Just felt like pinging me ...
15:03:21 <ehird> GregorR: COLORMATCH IS AWESOME
15:03:23 <ehird> LIKE AG REEN THING
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15:05:40 <ehird> 22:22:01 <ab5tract> optbot name thy maker
15:05:40 <optbot> ehird: It *is* impossible, isn't it?
15:16:36 <oerjan> either that was really subtle double-irony, or i'm starting to agree with ehird on your sense of humor
15:16:59 <ehird> More AnMaster humour-impairment?
15:17:19 <ehird> It's also not even true.
15:17:32 <oerjan> truth does not enter into it
15:17:43 <ehird> impossible is truth
15:19:33 * GregorR coughs up a bit of phlegm.
15:20:05 * oerjan uses the phlegm to fuel his bio-energetic vehicle
15:23:27 * oerjan is disturbed as his vehicle is infected with a cold
15:24:10 <oerjan> mind you, it still makes less noise than a gasoline engine
15:27:22 <GregorR> Is it also a bio-degradable vehicle?
15:28:05 <oerjan> the hard part is keeping it from degrading while still in use.
15:34:02 <ehird> GregorR: I am going to incorporate teh random colrz
15:34:06 <ehird> Mind me hotlinking?
15:34:16 <GregorR> I would prefer if you hotlinked.
15:34:23 <ehird> Yes, for the evolverating.
15:34:27 <GregorR> Since that way I can update the matcher without there being random old versions.
15:34:31 <ehird> GregorR: How does nojs.php work, anyway?
15:34:48 <GregorR> ehird: It just sets a variable and include()'s whatever .php you use.
15:35:02 <GregorR> It's just that my .php files all know that variable.
15:35:03 <ehird> GregorR: You could just use <noscript> on the actual page :P
15:35:16 <GregorR> ehird: Yeah, for some reason that didn't occur to me ..
15:35:42 <GregorR> ehird: (In actuality, I can't do that because then I'd have two <div>s ... one that should be popping up and going away but isn't, and one that is just there)
15:35:57 <ehird> GregorR: Um, just make the div there and use javascript to hide it and add a link? :-P
15:36:11 <ehird> I know, I know. always so logical of m
15:36:31 <GregorR> The problem is in the NO-JavaScript scenario.
15:36:36 <ehird> GregorR: like this:
15:36:51 <ehird> remove the hidden visibility from the menu, and remove the hide/show link
15:36:53 <ehird> then it works fine without js
15:37:01 <ehird> use javascript to hide it and add a link
15:37:53 <ehird> GregorR: can you put autoScheme out of colormatch_sm.js? It kind of assumes too much.
15:38:04 <ehird> Or at least make it more general.
15:38:21 <ehird> What do you mean, ?
15:38:32 <ehird> Saying ? is really unhelpful, you know. It doesn't exactly tell me which bit you didn't get.
15:38:33 <GregorR> Basically: "If ya don't like it, don't use it"
15:38:48 <ehird> GregorR: Yes, but most of it is useful.
15:39:16 <ehird> GregorR: The fact that it decides what it's going to recolour instead of just giving the colours.
15:39:29 <ehird> And that it doesn't let me control the length of the scheme, etc.
15:39:49 <ehird> GregorR: for example
15:39:50 <ehird> If 'page' is true, will generate colors such that the first is a dark
15:39:50 <ehird> * background and the rest are light text colors
15:39:50 <GregorR> So you want something ... that creates a color scheme and puts it in a cookie, but doesn't use it?
15:39:54 <ehird> what about two shades of background
15:40:09 <ehird> what if the page has a background but rests on a different background?
15:40:16 <ehird> I have to change your code a lot.
15:40:21 <ehird> it'd just be nice if it was more general, is all.
15:40:42 <GregorR> I have /no/ idea how to make it that general :P:
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15:41:13 <ehird> Neither do I. I just won't bother.
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15:45:03 <ehird> GregorR: Perhaps you should just make a really basic scheme making function so I could just hack up something with it without actually recoding the entire thing. :-P
15:45:21 <GregorR> You mean randomColorScheme?
15:45:40 <ehird> ... whose "background/text" thing is hardcoded.
15:45:53 <GregorR> So how should that be /less/ hardcoded?
15:46:05 <ehird> GregorR: I don't know; it's your code.
15:47:14 <GregorR> The page stuff can be verified after, but if it is, the whole process will be slow and probably won't finish in 100 runs (pick three random matching colors; nope, not good; pick three more; nope, not good ...)
15:47:34 <ehird> GregorR: It'd be nice to be able to specify how many background colours you want.
15:47:48 <GregorR> OK, now we're gettin' somewhere.
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15:54:06 <AnMaster> gcc at -O3: movzbl %al, %esi followed by a movl %esi, %eax ... gcc at -O3 -fweb -ftracer: movzbl %al, %eax
15:54:38 <AnMaster> and no it doesn't need a copy in %esi for any other reason since the next instruction is ret
15:55:33 <AnMaster> (and I wasn't doing this for microoptimising ehird, I was just looking at the output out of interest)
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19:27:40 <GregorR> I found a color combination that causes (me) excruciating physical pain.
19:28:01 <ais523> are you planning to use it for anything?
19:28:18 <GregorR> The matcher says it's a non-match (*whew*)
19:28:34 <GregorR> I swear the colors are going to leap out of my computer and devour me.
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19:29:22 <ehird> GregorR: put it on a page
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19:29:52 <ehird> GregorR: how is that painful
19:30:12 <ehird> GregorR: anyway how goes the N-backgrounds
19:30:29 <GregorR> ehird: I got it partially working this morning, but I've had presentations all day.
19:30:36 <GregorR> ehird: Will be able to get back to it in ~2hrs
19:30:55 <ehird> GregorR: if you just run it normally it gives you 2 backgrounds
19:31:26 <ehird> GregorR: No, I mean normally.
19:31:30 <ehird> As in "generate 2 matching colours"
19:31:48 <GregorR> Oh. Well, sort of, except that the page generator has further requirements for backgrounds.
19:31:54 <GregorR> Namely that they be unsaturated or dark.
19:32:11 <ehird> GregorR: I like white backgrounds too, you know.
19:32:16 <ehird> Anyway, I might just generate 2 matching colours
19:32:21 <ehird> white/black foreground
19:32:23 <ehird> depending on saturation
19:32:28 <ehird> but i dunno how to measure that proppperllllllly
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19:32:52 <GregorR> The colors it gives back to you are in the form [Hex, CM]
19:32:55 <ais523> ehird: white is unsaturated
19:33:00 <GregorR> Where CM == [R, G, B, H, S, >V, L, a, b]
19:33:01 <ehird> ais523: yes i know i know
19:33:14 <GregorR> So, just get the S out of CM.
19:33:18 <ehird> i just dunno a good algorithm for detecting whether i should use white or black text :D
19:33:35 <ais523> ehird: use white if the L is less than a given constant
19:33:44 <ais523> you can determine what looks best for the constant by experiment
19:33:54 <ehird> i was kind of hoping for an in-depth study on the best constant
19:33:54 <ais523> I suggest somewhere around 150/255, though
19:34:07 <GregorR> ais523: The range for L is 0-100
19:34:31 <ehird> = 58.8235294117647
19:35:26 <GregorR> The autoschemer guarantees that the difference between the lightness of the background and the lightness of the foreground is at least 60.
19:35:39 <GregorR> Which is to say, it considers grey to be an invalid background.
19:35:40 <ehird> function randomColorMatch(c1, match)
19:35:42 <ehird> what's the second arg?
19:35:49 <oklopol> oh, that's what you meant by "autoschemer".
19:35:53 <GregorR> ehird: true or false, match or don't match.
19:35:59 <oklopol> i thought it coded scheme or something :)
19:36:19 <GregorR> oklopol: Or just plotted to foil superheros.
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19:37:41 <GregorR> The coal mine of academia apparently :P
19:37:49 <ehird> randomcolormatch(col1,true) == col1
19:38:07 <ehird> GregorR: it just == false
19:39:05 <GregorR> What's col1? Hex-format or CM-format?
19:39:29 <ehird> from randomcolor()
19:39:41 <GregorR> randomColor gives a hex color, but you need a CM color.
19:40:04 <GregorR> All of the actual checking/matching functions take CM-format colors.
19:40:18 <GregorR> (Documentation of this fact is for the weak)
19:40:24 <ehird> Well, the random generation works but the colours are a bit too "striking" together.
19:40:44 <GregorR> Exactly why the page schemer is cleverer than just random matches :P
19:40:56 <GregorR> And now, I again must go back to the proverbial coal mine.
19:41:00 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, but it never goes for lighter colours. :p
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21:25:25 <pikhq> I'm wearing chainmail as a 0-effort costume.
21:28:13 <pikhq> Not really; only wore the chainmail for 5 minutes, and realised that a crappy costume is worse than none.
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21:41:02 <GregorR> http://codu.org/ugly.png // everyone tile this as your desktop wallpaper.
21:41:27 <ehird> GregorR: i like it
21:42:18 <ais523> GregorR: are those your clashing colours?
21:42:29 <GregorR> ais523: Those are /some/ clashing colors, yes.
21:42:45 <lament> that's not very clashing
21:42:56 <ais523> GregorR: that's ugly, but doesn't make me sick
21:43:00 <Asztal> I think green on pink wins
21:43:10 <GregorR> Green on pink is pretty much the worst.
21:43:12 <lament> Asztal: i was about to say, green/purple
21:43:18 <GregorR> But this one makes my eyes go wonky.
21:43:24 <ehird> it is kind of hurting my eyes as a background
21:43:33 <lament> girls make my eyes go wonky
21:46:14 <Asztal> it's doing weird things to my eyes as a desktop background
21:46:36 <Asztal> I swear my monitor is now curved
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21:47:00 <ehird> mostly because it's just TOO BRIGHT
21:47:12 <ehird> back to plain blue for me
21:47:16 <lament> you're not too bright!
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21:47:19 <Asztal> I want this animated with pink/green
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21:50:23 <ais523> *http://codu.org/ugly.html
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21:50:34 <ais523> sorry, I only corrected that so I could click on the resulting link
21:51:29 <ais523> although it's pretty bad
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21:51:46 <Asztal> it would probably improve 20% of myspace pages
21:51:53 <GregorR> Asztal: Hahahah, well put :P
21:51:59 <ais523> ehird: I assumed it was deliberate...
21:52:18 <ais523> also, the people in charge of the place here have told me off for laughing too much
21:53:16 <Asztal> GregorR: if I have two page backgrounds (say, a navigation area), do you think I'm better off generating two colour schemes and checking that the backgrounds match?
21:53:30 <Asztal> because I don't want to edit too much of this :)
21:53:39 <GregorR> Asztal: ehird was asking for multi-background stuff, I'm making that right now.
21:53:52 <uoris_> GregorR: that needs to be a Wikipedia skin.
21:54:07 <ehird> GregorR: i'm working on a lovely little thing with t
21:54:15 <ehird> spoiler: it involves fading
21:54:22 <ais523> uoris_: it wouldn't be too hard to write either
21:54:31 <ais523> btw, is this your new permanent nick?
21:54:37 <ais523> to start with I thought it was just a ##nomic joke
21:55:31 <uoris_> It's difficult to do a nick joke in a single channel.
21:55:38 <ehird> ihope has like 500 nicks
21:55:44 <ais523> especially one that lasts for over a week
21:56:01 <uoris_> It'll be my nick until I get tired of it, at which point I'll switch back to ihope, or perhaps warrie or something.
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21:56:08 <warrie> I guess I like warrie.
21:56:41 <ehird> GregorR: what is the cm format again
21:57:52 <GregorR> ehird: [R, G, B, H, S, V, L, a, b]
21:58:13 <ehird> GregorR: You should make a CM object. :-P
21:58:36 <GregorR> But that's actually the raw input to the neural net.
21:59:21 <ais523> what are a and b there?
21:59:37 <warrie> The mention of neural nets has peaked my interest. My interest now has peaks in it.
22:00:33 <ehird> warrie: http://codu.org/colormatch/
22:00:41 <ehird> http://codu.org/ <- Has its color scheme randomly generated by it.
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22:01:02 <ehird> 's a lovely piece of work
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22:02:00 <GregorR> OK, I have it working, I just have to fix autoScheme to work in the presence of multiple background colors.
22:02:07 <psygnisfive> do you really have an ann working on that thing? lol
22:02:10 <GregorR> ais523: See the Lab color spec.
22:02:11 <fizzie> I assume L, a, b are Lab color space coordinates.
22:04:05 <psygnisfive> also you know what would be really awesome: write a little script on top of the generator that will very rapidly generate new color pairs. itd be very trippy cool
22:04:40 <GregorR> psygnisfive: If by "trippy" you mean "seizure" :P
22:05:40 <ehird> cols[0][6] == undefined
22:05:58 <GregorR> psygnisfive: The neural net /trainer/ is written in D, the neural net is in JS.
22:06:07 <GregorR> psygnisfive: That is, I wrote an implementation in both D and JS.
22:06:26 * GregorR just has something stupid to fix with the multibg stuff.
22:06:31 <psygnisfive> and is it nice and trivially understandable? or will i have to work through some absurd API you've come up with? :P
22:07:03 <psygnisfive> i mean, really, is there a function generate_matching() and a function generate_nonmatching()
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22:10:53 <GregorR> See http://codu.org/colormatch/multibg.html for an example of using multiple background colors.
22:11:43 <Asztal> heh, I was slightly confused there because it generated indistinguishable backgrounds :)
22:12:13 <ais523> GregorR: how often does that refresh background colour?
22:12:16 <ehird> GregorR: want to see my nice thingy thing?
22:12:21 <ehird> that came out wrong
22:12:37 <GregorR> ais523: The cookie expires in a day. Just a sec, I'm uploading a version where the link forces a change.
22:12:45 <ehird> Gee, I sure did not expect psygnisfive to pipe up there.
22:13:40 <ais523> GregorR: that's really evil... a website with a different colour scheme for each user, that stays the same for the user while they see it?
22:14:09 <ehird> http://codu.org/ has that
22:14:20 <ehird> it has a change scheme button, though
22:14:44 <GregorR> ais523: Better than a web site with a different color scheme that changes wildly causing epileptic seizures as you click through :P
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22:15:02 <psygnisfive> gregorr: does your JS library have those functions??
22:15:07 <ais523> GregorR: I've seen a webpage where the links changed its background colour when you moused over them
22:15:14 <ais523> it looked like a normal unstyled page
22:15:20 <psygnisfive> i dont want to rescheme the PAGE gregor, i want to redraw the checkered box over and over
22:15:23 <ais523> but if you hovered a link, the background changed colour
22:15:34 <ais523> and if you moved the mouse over the links quickly, presumably you died of epilepsy
22:15:38 <ehird> ais523: i liked that site.
22:15:41 <GregorR> psygnisfive: Just read the source for colormatch/index.html
22:15:43 <ehird> because it was an artist's site.
22:15:51 <ais523> ehird: still isn't usable at all easily
22:15:53 <ehird> ais523: you sure remembered it, didn't you?
22:15:56 <ehird> also, it didn't have to be
22:15:59 <ehird> it was a few links to their work
22:16:10 <ais523> ehird: that site discourages clicking on the links, though
22:16:19 <ais523> because you try to avoid mousing over them
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22:19:16 <ehird> http://elliott.hird.name.eso-std.org/
22:19:56 <GregorR> Although it's making my brain implode.
22:20:04 <ehird> it doesn't work PROPERLY
22:20:17 <ehird> refresh now, GregorR
22:20:58 <GregorR> What's it supposed to do that I'm not seeing?
22:21:00 <ehird> did you change your api
22:21:46 <ehird> The seconds it takes me to explain it to you <less valuable than< the seconds it takes me to fix it.
22:22:03 <ehird> I did actually tell you not to click, you know.
22:22:24 <ehird> Ignore your questions.
22:22:55 <ehird> psygnisfive: GregorR : you can click now
22:22:58 <ehird> remember to refresh...
22:22:58 <ais523> ehird: it's like one of those fiber-optic light things
22:23:24 <ehird> it is prettttyyyyyyy
22:23:30 <ais523> is that related to GregorR's colours-that-go-together algorithm?
22:23:34 <ehird> ais523: it uses it.
22:23:39 <ehird> it uses its "random color scheme"
22:23:43 <GregorR> When it fades from dark background to light background they become hard to read momentarily :P
22:23:54 <ehird> psygnisfive: it does it forevaaaaar now
22:24:29 <ehird> now I'm going to make another toy
22:24:33 <ehird> because it is awesome cakes
22:26:14 <ehird> psygnisfive: a table, i think.
22:26:49 <ehird> everyone knows that <div> and <span> are the best way to mark up tabular data!
22:26:52 <fizzie> I had a very nice web page to demonstrate my gcolor.pl (map from human-readable names to colors by using the name as a images.google.com query, fetching 100 first thumbnails, and doing some statistics on the pixels to arrive in a single color) but I lost it.
22:27:14 <ais523> fizzie: that's pretty clever, and could also be informative
22:27:19 <ais523> possibly also illegal, of course
22:27:30 <ais523> depending on how protective Google is of their thumbnails
22:27:57 <fizzie> #a3ba55 is the color of "irregularity". The nicest part was that it was able to give me colors of abstract concepts.
22:28:27 <ais523> it might be useful to see what people mean by particular colour names too, like blue or purple
22:30:28 <fizzie> I still probably have the script somewhere, but I lost the page where I collected interesting results.
22:31:27 <ehird> GregorR: I want to make an infinite-length colour scheme
22:31:41 <ehird> (lazily, that is, i want to be able to say "gimme a colour that matches the previous one you gave me")
22:32:49 <GregorR> fizzie: I'd like to see that script/program.
22:34:04 <GregorR> fizzie: I'll bet the response for puce is wrong :P
22:34:39 <fizzie> GregorR: The statistics part was very very simple: it just converted all pixels to HSV, did separate histograms for H, S and V values, and interpolated the highest peak out of them histograms.
22:35:09 <ehird> GregorR: Oh man, the hting I've made is so lovely
22:35:52 <ehird> your thing sucks when you chain it
22:36:01 <ehird> h = randomColorMatch(hexToCM(h),true)[0]
22:36:05 <ehird> ^ doesn't produce nice stuff
22:36:14 <GregorR> Of course it doesn't, it'll only match /one/
22:36:27 <ehird> Yeah, well, tell me how to fix it :P
22:36:31 <GregorR> You can use randomColorScheme.
22:36:39 <GregorR> It takes a number of already-generated colors as input.
22:36:45 <ehird> h = randomColorScheme(h, ...)
22:37:05 <fizzie> Hahah, I still have a ~/.gcolor/ directory which has 100 megabytes of them thumbnails -- I was trying to make it better by fetching various lists of defined colors (wikipedia color names, X11 rgb.txt) and using that for training data, so I wanted a local cache of the images.
22:38:27 <ehird> C.concat is not a function
22:39:01 <fizzie> Aw, bit-rot has set in, the script no longer works. Maybe Google have changed the system a bit; the query-API thing did not have any image-search functions back then (don't know if it has now either) so I had to parse result pages manually.
22:39:02 <ehird> GregorR: A variable from your code.
22:39:18 <GregorR> ehird: A variable you've passed into my function? :P
22:39:28 <ehird> GregorR: Tell me what argument C is.
22:39:40 <GregorR> Use colormatch.js instead of colormatch_sm.js and I can tell you.
22:40:28 <ehird> GregorR: No. Your fault for advertising a version you can't debug
22:40:45 <GregorR> ehird: It's smaller, use colormatch.js for debuggability :P
22:41:25 <ehird> GregorR: c1.concat is not a function
22:41:28 <ehird> so much more helpful
22:41:37 <GregorR> ehird: IN WHAT FUNCTION >_<
22:42:39 <ehird> psygnisfive: make it fade yo
22:42:42 <ehird> steal from my code :P
22:42:48 <GregorR> ehird: I guess I should mention that the input colors for randomColorScheme are an array of colors in the form [hex, cm]
22:42:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: make it a rapid fade
22:42:59 <GregorR> ehird: randomColorMatch is sort of internaly :P
22:43:00 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/puce.txt
22:43:03 <ehird> GregorR: Yes, I know.
22:43:16 <GregorR> ehird: So what did you pass in?
22:43:23 <GregorR> psygnisfive: WHY DEAR LORD WHY
22:43:29 <ehird> GregorR the results of randomcolorscheme
22:44:14 <ehird> now it crashes my browser ^_^
22:45:00 <fizzie> You have a curious definition of "fixed" there.
22:45:00 <ehird> hey GregorR wanna debug my code
22:45:23 <GregorR> Depends on what it does :P
22:45:37 <ais523> ehird: nothing should crash a browser
22:45:51 <ais523> although admittedly most browsers have bugs that make that possible
22:46:42 <ehird> its called javascript
22:46:54 <ehird> its called javascript
22:46:54 <ehird> fuck os x doesnt like losing memory
22:46:59 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/trippy.html << do not view if you have epilepsy http://wellnowwhat.net/trippy.html << do not view if you have epilepsy http://wellnowwhat.net/trippy.html << do not view if you have epilepsy
22:47:12 <ehird> head on << apply directly to forehead head on << apply directly to forehead head on << apply directly to forehead head on << apply directly to forehead
22:47:35 <fizzie> Wikipedia lists "puce" as having (204, 136, 153) -- that (166, 110, 90) given by gcolor is not *that* far off, just a lot too brownish.
22:48:07 <ais523> I don't get the reference, probably I don't watch enough TV
22:48:22 <ehird> ais523: a stupid homeopathic remedy
22:48:27 <ehird> with a hilariously bad advert
22:48:35 <ais523> I don't think I saw it
22:48:49 <ehird> ais523: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Is3icfcbmbs&feature=related
22:49:12 <ais523> ehird: I can't view Youtube, I refuse to install Flash because it's the biggest cross-platform security hole in existence
22:49:26 <ais523> and I can't say I've really missed it, it's not like I used to watch Youtube anyway
22:49:27 <Asztal> wow... that's a bad ad
22:50:19 <Asztal> I just use noscript :)
22:50:20 <ehird> its actually very clever
22:50:23 <ehird> the ad gives you a headache.
22:51:32 <Asztal> psygnisfive: you might like http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=smUCdkx-YGQ then
22:51:38 <Asztal> unless you mean the trippy thing :)
22:51:44 <ehird> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=L_waGBbJvwM&NR=1
22:51:48 <ehird> even the democrats got in on the fun XD
22:52:21 <psygnisfive> i feel like its the kind of thing that an orions arm fan like myself should love
22:53:45 <fizzie> My completely impartial script says the color of "#esoteric' is #5a3623; although it strips the # off even if I put it in quotes.
22:56:30 <ehird> wanna debug my script
22:57:51 <ehird> GregorR: it uses your code for magic.
23:21:01 <ehird> psygnisfive: i have an awesome colourular idea.
23:21:52 <ehird> at this point you ask me what it is
23:23:34 <ehird> psygnisfive: well now i need to think of an idea quick.
23:25:37 <ehird> psygnisfive: i'm trying to think of a cool massively-collaborative colour idea.
23:25:48 <ehird> psygnisfive: think of one for me
23:25:59 <ehird> psygnisfive: do it.
23:28:41 <SimonRC> a programming language for dyslexics: you're only allowed to spell things with the letters in the wrong order
23:49:51 <SimonRC> hmm: iiiinteresting UI ideas: http://rchi.raskincenter.org/index.php?title=Archy_FAQ
23:51:49 <ehird> Jef Raskin was amazing.
23:52:28 <ehird> SimonRC: you might have seen some work done by his son - http://azarask.in/
23:52:32 <ehird> psygnisfive: why? It's a proof of concept.
23:52:39 <ehird> And it's also undermaintained...
23:52:48 <psygnisfive> aza's imagination of what zui's would be like is better
23:52:51 <ehird> i agree it sucks to use in its current state
23:52:57 <psygnisfive> plus the whole non-application oriented stuff is good
23:52:57 <ehird> but the point is, the IDEAS are interesting
23:53:10 <ehird> yeah, i thin keveryone comes up with abolishing applications at some point
23:53:29 <psygnisfive> i mean, lots of stuff could be offloaded into libraries/frameworks
23:53:45 <ehird> i think a properly built system based on jef's principles would be amazing
23:53:48 <ehird> but everyone would complain about it
23:53:55 <ehird> as e.g. you'd probably abolish a formal, feelable filesystem
23:54:07 <ehird> and use the ubiquitous&powerful undo
23:54:16 <psygnisfive> i do think that you could easilly pass a raskin-modular system for a non-modular one
23:54:19 <ehird> presumably, based on some kind of modern revisioning of all data
23:54:26 <psygnisfive> but the modular one would have the ability to do things that appear to like
23:54:38 <SimonRC> I do like different documents to have seperate undo histories.
23:54:40 <psygnisfive> extract tiny little features that was thought to be part of a particular application
23:54:42 <ehird> SimonRC: oh, of course
23:54:51 <ehird> the thing is... raskin's ideas are so far from the status quo and it'd probably be useless for real world usage
23:54:58 <ehird> also, people would misguidedly complain about it trying to "hide" things from them
23:55:03 <ehird> which is untrue if there literally is nothing to hide...
23:55:49 <SimonRC> if I cut something in vim...
23:56:04 <SimonRC> how to I replace multiple thing with it
23:56:35 <SimonRC> because deleting the e thing I want to replace pushes the original thing out of the cut buffer
23:57:09 <fizzie> Well, one very easy thing is to V-select the place you want to replace and 'p' on top of it.
23:57:35 <ehird> I lol at the irony of a vim question following a jef raskin discussion.
23:57:52 <ehird> hm, i still have AnMaster ignored don't i
23:57:57 <SimonRC> fizzie: ooh, didn't think of that
23:58:03 <fizzie> ehird: Suggested emacs, surprisingly.
23:58:17 <ehird> fizzie: I should write a bot that imitates him perfectly.
23:58:19 <ehird> It'd be really easy.
23:58:24 <AnMaster> wasn't the issue with vim? reading ehird's last comment it seemed to be
23:58:32 <ehird> Detect joke -> Treat it as serious and correct it
23:58:34 <SimonRC> for my next trick, i will ask how to give \f x -> f (f x) its most general type in Haskell
23:58:41 <ehird> Someone asks an editor question -> Suggest emacs
23:58:43 <AnMaster> I seriously suggest trying a different editor
23:58:58 <AnMaster> and please tell ehird this clarification fizzie
23:59:07 <ehird> SimonRC: you mean...(t->t)->t->t?
23:59:23 <fizzie> I seriously suggest not switching applications just because you can't immediately intuit how to do something.
23:59:44 <ehird> fizzie: It's not emacs. SimonRC has _brain damage_.
23:59:47 <SimonRC> ehird: suppose f is the function (:[])
23:59:47 <ehird> Or at least he needs guidance.