00:00:23 <ehird> SimonRC: anyway i don't think you can
00:00:50 <ehird> lol, i just read the logs
00:01:00 <SimonRC> that was the joke I was making. giving the most-general type of that function in Haskell is just as hard as getting vim to do what I was trying to do
00:01:03 <ehird> "It's a question about vim.
00:01:03 <ehird> Therefore, try emacs!"
00:01:11 <SimonRC> wel, harder actually, as vim has ways round it
00:01:11 <fizzie> ehird: Good, then I don't need to figure out how to pass on that "clarification".
00:01:19 <ehird> fizzie: "I HOPE YOU DO"
00:01:23 <ehird> Do you want to betray him? :-(
00:02:24 <SimonRC> well, vim's commands are a bit more typeable
00:02:38 * ehird sniffs. Poor AnMaster.
00:02:47 <SimonRC> I work with xm,l a lot and it is handy to be able to type f>ct<
00:02:57 <fizzie> *Completely* unrelated, but what should I do with underload ^def command arguments? Push the whole input string on the initial stack, or split it somehow?
00:03:14 <ehird> do what ais523 was going to do
00:03:14 <SimonRC> ehird: as I said, 3 sec of lag
00:03:24 <ehird> push it as church numeras
00:03:27 <ehird> of the ascii chars
00:03:32 <ehird> you'll have to figure out how to do a list in underload
00:04:18 <ehird> fizzie: i would say an underload linked list is just:
00:04:36 <ehird> (tip(tip-1(tip-2 SOME-NIL-SENTINEL)))
00:04:43 <ehird> SOME-NIL-SENTINEL would have to be detectable somehow
00:04:51 <ehird> for the list (a b c)
00:05:07 <fizzie> AnMaster: He read the logs already.
00:05:17 <ehird> did he ask you to pass it on again?
00:05:23 <ehird> he's so desperate i'll misunderstand him :'(
00:05:51 <ehird> fizzie: i've figured out a list structure
00:06:05 <AnMaster> ^echo I also suggested nano. Just FYI. If I have an issue with a program, and can't solve it, I often try some other program.
00:06:05 <fungot> I also suggested nano. Just FYI. If I have an issue with a program, and can't solve it, I often try some other program. I also suggested nano. Just FYI. If I have an issue with a program, and can't solve it, ...
00:06:23 <ehird> AnMaster: stop being a retard.
00:06:28 <ehird> if you have a problem with a program
00:06:30 <ehird> you try and solve it.
00:06:36 <AnMaster> ehird!*@* added to ignore list.
00:06:39 <ehird> you don't change program.
00:06:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, you may want to tell ehird that ^
00:06:52 <fizzie> ehird: He ignored you again.
00:06:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, what do you mean again?
00:06:59 <SimonRC> ehird: the anal master is /ignoring you too
00:07:01 <ehird> ^echo AnMaster two can play the ignore-avoidance game.
00:07:01 <fungot> AnMaster two can play the ignore-avoidance game. AnMaster two can play the ignore-avoidance game.
00:07:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: Haven't you done it before? I would think so.
00:07:22 <fizzie> In any case, that's about as much message-passing as I care to do.
00:07:26 <SimonRC> wait, that *is what your names stands for isn't it?
00:07:28 <AnMaster> ^echo Well you did it first, a few weeks ago iirc
00:07:28 <fungot> Well you did it first, a few weeks ago iirc Well you did it first, a few weeks ago iirc
00:07:36 <ehird> SimonRC: i think it means annoying master.
00:07:42 <ehird> ^echo AnMaster - please shut up.
00:07:42 <fungot> AnMaster - please shut up. AnMaster - please shut up.
00:07:48 <ehird> ^echo I ignored you for a reason.
00:07:48 <fungot> I ignored you for a reason. I ignored you for a reason.
00:07:50 -!- fungot has left (?).
00:07:54 <ehird> fizzie: list structure
00:08:10 <ehird> fizzie: what's dip in underload again
00:09:18 <ehird> ((a)((b)()(a~*^)~a*^)(a~*^)~a*^)
00:10:15 <fizzie> Is that worth a ":(" then?
00:10:22 <ehird> fizzie: just pay attention to me :-P
00:10:47 <ehird> LIST = (HEAD(TAIL)(a~*^)~a*^)
00:10:51 <ehird> where TAIL :: LIST
00:11:10 <ehird> i think you can use it like this:
00:11:21 <ehird> fizzie: can i get fungot to test that?
00:11:31 -!- fungot has joined.
00:11:43 <fizzie> I'm not in a very Underloady frame of mind today, but I am paying attention, fwiw.
00:11:45 <GregorR> ehird: Would you just let me see your effing bonko code already :P
00:11:51 <ehird> ^ul (S)((hello)()(a~*^)~a*^)^
00:12:07 <ehird> ^ul (S)((hello)((hello)()(a~*^)~a*^)(a~*^)~a*^)^
00:12:17 <fizzie> I'm sure you need a : somewhere.
00:13:15 <ehird> it executes the head
00:13:15 -!- atrapado_ has joined.
00:13:18 <ehird> the issue is dropping up again
00:13:47 <ehird> fizzie: lets try this:
00:13:52 <ehird> (HEAD(TAIL)(a~:(*^)~a*^)~a*^^)
00:14:04 <ehird> ^ul (S)((hello)((world()(a~:(*^)~a*^)~a*^^))(a~:(*^)~a*^)~a*^^)^
00:14:42 <ehird> fizzie: any ideas?
00:15:06 <fizzie> My Underload thinking goes slowly.
00:15:18 <ehird> but here is my basic algorithm:
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00:15:39 <ehird> you have the program, then the head, then the tail
00:15:44 -!- atrapado_ has changed nick to atrapado.
00:15:47 <ehird> program, then the head
00:15:53 <ehird> the head, then the program
00:15:57 <ehird> the head the program
00:16:01 <ehird> but now you have no program
00:16:05 <ehird> you have the program, then the head then the tail
00:16:17 <ehird> head, the program, the program
00:16:35 <ehird> the program the fail
00:16:43 <ehird> nil should actually be (!)
00:16:45 <ehird> to eliminate the program
00:16:47 <ehird> fizzie: see my basic algo?
00:16:53 <ehird> <func><list>^ runs func for every element in list
00:18:15 <ehird> ((hello)((world)(!)(~:(*^)~a*^)~a*^^)(~:(*^)~a*^)~a*^^)
00:18:22 <ehird> ^ul (S)((hello)((world)(!)(~:(*^)~a*^)~a*^^)(~:(*^)~a*^)~a*^^)^
00:18:27 <fungot> ehird: its only " real" programming language? are there significant advantages to that over using fnord fnord
00:18:46 <ehird> ^ul (S)((hello)((world)(!)(~:(*^)~a*^)~a*^^)(~:(*^)~a*^)~a*^~*^)^
00:18:51 <ehird> ^ul (S)((hello)((world)(!)(~:(*^)~a*^)~a*^^)(~:(*^)~a*^)~a*^*^)^
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00:21:07 <fizzie> I would rather start by using just ((foo)((bar)...)) -style lists instead of "something that evaluates top-of-stack for each element", given how much easier car and cdr sound for that sort of lists. But really, I'm not in an underloady mood. And sure, that sort of list might be trickier to use.
00:21:46 <ehird> how do you check if you've reached the end of the list?
00:21:49 <ehird> how can you do == ()? :-P
00:22:30 <GregorR> <GregorR> ehird: Would you just let me see your effing bonko code already :P
00:22:38 <ehird> GregorR: i gave up on it
00:22:48 <GregorR> WELL THEN I GIVE UP ON YOU
00:23:01 <fizzie> Maybe not plain ((foo)((bar)...)) then; maybe something more like (((foo)^)(((bar)^)(!))); but *really*, I don't want to think about Underload now.
00:23:15 <fizzie> Er, ~^ there instead of ^.
00:23:22 <ehird> fizzie: Oh, that could work.
00:23:24 <fizzie> It's easier to "detect" (!).
00:27:07 <fizzie> ^ul (((foo)~^)(((bar)~^)(()(!))))(~^~(S)~^~:^):^
00:27:33 <ehird> Make the input one of those lists, with the elements as the underload-church-numearls.
00:28:02 <fizzie> That sounds like quite a lot of stack, but...
00:28:55 <ehird> fizzie: You perhaps thought Underload was lightweight?
00:29:01 <ehird> fizzie: The alternative is to add a new char - say, @
00:29:09 <ehird> Which pushes a church numeral of the next input char on the stack.
00:29:22 <fizzie> Well, it does say "underload", it sounds small.
00:30:44 <fizzie> Converting those church numerals back to ASCII for output sounds like something which would pretty fast go over the IRC message length limits.
00:31:53 <ehird> fizzie: Then you need _two_ new commands.
00:32:03 <ehird> @ to get a church numeral, $ to output a church numerally-thing as ascii. :\
00:33:05 <fizzie> I think I'll let ais523 to do the bleeding-edge feature-adding; as far as Underload is concerned, I'm happy to be a follower.
00:33:32 <ehird> fizzie: underload is abandoned, underlambda is what is being developed, i think.
00:41:22 <fizzie> I have a feeling I need sleep; early morning again, and getting 0145 around here.
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00:53:14 <SimonRC> outputting church numerals actually wouldn't be too hard
00:53:25 <ehird> SimonRC: it would you have to store every ascii char
00:53:28 <SimonRC> you just feed increment into them and apply that to zero
00:53:37 <ehird> SimonRC: in underload?
00:53:43 <ehird> you couldnt do that.
00:53:49 <ehird> in underload, code blocks (aka strings) are opaque
00:54:02 <SimonRC> I meant as a primitive: output church numeral as ascii char
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00:54:31 * SimonRC wonders if automatic-church-numeral-detection is practical
00:55:22 <SimonRC> well, how about common cases then?
00:55:39 <ehird> sure, but thats not pure.
00:57:24 <ehird> SimonRC: pure. clean
00:57:46 <SimonRC> It might be anice optimisation
00:58:23 <ehird> underload is the slowest thing evr
01:06:17 * SimonRC goes, leaving you with this question: what character would be best paired with Godot in a slashfic?
01:06:44 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Hrm; I seem to have forgotten the details of gas's constant syntax..
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02:30:22 <GregorR> autoScheme can now be run in <head> to generate a <style> tag.
04:11:03 <GregorR> WTF? Does Opera have problems with cookies in JavaScript? >_O
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07:06:45 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i mean, obviously if sets were objects and had properties of their own, you'd be kind of messed up.
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08:12:01 <oerjan> good thing i read the logs today or i would have no idea who is ihope
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08:48:25 <psygnisfive> 'Vibratory Telepathy. By transmitting invisible vibrations through the very air itself, two users of this ability can share thoughts. As a result, Vibratory Telepaths can form emotional bonds much deeper than those possible to other primates.'
08:51:49 -!- rodgort has quit ("Coyote finally caught me").
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08:55:19 <oerjan> also, Vibratory Telepaths have great trouble with text-based internet fora.
09:01:13 <pikhq> Interesting, but a bit... Bizarre.
09:01:22 <psygnisfive> http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/mundane-magic.html
09:01:54 <pikhq> Maybe it'd make for good spells for GURPS?
09:01:57 <psygnisfive> -eth the archaic form of the 3rd person singular conjugation on verbs
09:02:18 <oerjan> i'm afraid i cannot read that, it's giving off bad vibrations
09:02:20 <pikhq> I'm actually well aware, but occasionally don't care.
09:02:20 <psygnisfive> eth, said with a voiceless th sound, eventually evolved into modern -(e)s
09:02:58 <psygnisfive> thus speaking with the -eth version makes you sound like you have a lisp
09:03:08 <pikhq> In modern English, sure.
09:03:22 <pikhq> In early modern, it merely sounds normal.
09:04:06 <pikhq> Anyways, that site is brilliant.
09:04:22 <oerjan> the obvious conclusion is that the early moderns were gay
09:04:32 <psygnisfive> i bet that at some time -eth became just -th
09:04:43 <pikhq> And that they reproduced out of a selfless desire to continue the species?
09:05:36 <oerjan> but of course. well, that and the strict anti-homosexuality laws. a terrible paradox, that.
09:06:00 <psygnisfive> interestingly, homosexuality was apparently not as looked down upon back then as people think
09:06:10 <oerjan> execution with a hot poker and such stuff
09:06:26 <psygnisfive> tho back then means like 1600s or 1700s in my sense
09:06:49 <oerjan> shakethpeare wath very gay
09:07:41 <oerjan> then came the victorians and messed it all up. or something.
09:08:05 <pikhq> The Victorians had incredibly repressed sexual mores...
09:08:48 <pikhq> And yet, they had some fairly ironic medical treatments. . .
09:09:00 <pikhq> Manual masturbation for 'feminine hysteria'.
09:09:17 <oerjan> should be quite relaxing you'd think.
09:10:32 * psygnisfive manually masturbates oerjan for feminine hysteria
09:10:38 <oerjan> and i read just the other day on wp that Victoria herself liked drawings of male nudes
09:13:49 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_morality in fact
09:14:17 <oerjan> "Another example of the gap between our preconceptions of Victorian sexuality and the facts is that contrary to what we might expect, Queen Victoria liked to draw and collect male nude figure drawings and even gave her husband one as a present."
09:15:03 <pikhq> So, they had a gap between public and private views of sexuality similar to the modern-day US's?
09:15:07 * oerjan is not particularly hysterical today, or feminine for that matter.
09:19:37 <oerjan> hey, a deer outside the window
09:36:12 <pikhq> Yeah, that mundane magic page is one of the most brilliant things I've read in a long time.
09:36:44 <fizzie> Er, misread that as "hey, a deer masturbates outside the window" "cute".
09:39:55 * pikhq should go to sleep soon...
09:40:14 <pikhq> 'Tis almost 04:00.
09:40:24 <pikhq> Midwest of the US.
09:40:30 <oerjan> pikhq is in antarctica. he's secretly a penguin.
09:41:37 <oerjan> plotting to use his devious ice machines to take over the world, but don't worry about that.
09:41:47 <pikhq> oerjan: No, but it'd be awesome to move there.
09:41:52 <pikhq> Alas, he's on to me.
09:41:52 <oerjan> that's why we started the global warming project, after all.
09:42:21 <pikhq> The ice machines shall soon bring PEBBLE to all the world!!!
09:42:33 <pikhq> Let global cooling mark II commence!
09:42:51 <oerjan> ah yes, pebbles are a well known result of glaciers.
09:42:54 * pikhq watches as a full 1/2 of the Earth slowly gets colder over the next few months
09:43:54 <oerjan> that's not because of you, that's the polar bears' sinister doing. but we'll get them in just a few years.
09:44:26 <oerjan> unless they learn to swim _really_ well. BWAHAHAHAHA!!
09:44:40 <pikhq> I've been plotting with them.
09:44:47 <pikhq> Taught them how to swim and everything.
09:45:01 <oerjan> sure, but you never get the timing right.
09:45:08 <AnMaster> How would you shoot yourself in the foot using brainfuck?
09:45:12 <oerjan> always half a year out of phase
09:45:38 <oerjan> and the bullet extension
09:46:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: I'd write a bullet macro and a gun macro, and call it as follows: gun bullet > foot : temp1 temp2 temp3 temp4 temp5 temp6 temp7 temp8 temp9 temp10
09:46:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, is that in some high level language compiling to bf?
09:47:15 <oerjan> that's PEBBLE, the coolest language in the world. after all it's used in the ice machines.
09:47:17 <AnMaster> What about these languages then: Unlambda, Underload, Befunge-98, Funge-98
09:47:39 <oerjan> for the first two use PSOX there too
09:47:57 <oerjan> the latter two use the EXPL funge fingerprint
09:48:08 <oerjan> oh 93 needs PSOX i think
09:48:27 <pikhq> PEBBLE compiles into Brainfuck.
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12:28:18 <oklopol> so, what's your favorite apple?
12:41:56 <oklopol> well aren't you a merry bunch.
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13:14:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | well you would need to hack the main loop anywya.
13:14:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | at least that's what's supposed to happen :).
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13:36:30 <AnMaster> <oklopol> so, what's your favorite apple? <-- Apple ][
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13:52:11 <oklopol> AnMaster: the correct answer was "fruit"
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15:59:27 <M0ny> "plop" is cute
16:04:34 <ehird> did AnMaster ask that again?
16:04:38 <ehird> WHY PLOP WHY PLOP WHY PLOP WAAAAAAA
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16:55:54 <oklopol> owning c++ people @ speed using python, that's what i call sex
16:57:09 <oerjan> always the sex talk with this channel
16:57:35 <oerjan> sometimes even when on topic
16:58:10 <oerjan> is it like this on other irc channels too? i wouldn't know.
17:06:30 <ehird> oerjan: none of us have lives
17:06:31 <oklopol> "sex" isn't really sex talk in that context
17:06:33 <ehird> and we're all nerds
17:06:45 <ehird> most of us like, 1x-2y
17:06:56 <oerjan> i would NEVER have guessed
17:07:04 <ehird> oerjan: yeah, well
17:07:06 <ehird> there's your answer
17:08:47 <ehird> oerjan: that was a range
17:08:57 <ehird> and x and y were digits
17:09:19 <oerjan> how dare you redefine standard math notation!
17:10:28 <oerjan> seeing as how neither you nor i is within that range...
17:11:32 <ehird> oerjan: i said 'most'
17:12:13 <oklopol> well ehird is too *young and naive* to talk about sex, and you... well you've probably forgotten what it means
17:12:30 <ehird> me? young and naive? ha :-P
17:12:40 <oklopol> i mean, you have to be pretty mature to be able to make sex jokes.
17:12:49 <ehird> i think oerjan is actually my age
17:13:15 <oerjan> mentally that may be true.
17:13:41 <oerjan> ok i'm nowhere near as snide, but still...
17:14:06 <ehird> actually, i think oerjan and fizzie are actually different personalities of the same person
17:14:37 <oerjan> split personality, i guess
17:14:46 <oerjan> very well hidden from each other
17:15:41 <oerjan> the hard part is setting up two different virtual pcs on the same laptop without either noticing the other, i think
17:15:42 <ehird> conclusion: fizzerjan is actually my age.
17:16:10 <ehird> oerjan: also, how to be logged in via a norweigan and finnish isp simultaneously
17:17:02 <oerjan> actually since the norwegian one is a shell account it's not that hard
17:17:15 <oerjan> as far as you know, that is
17:18:34 <oerjan> (unless you paid particular attention when i had that bot on #irp)
17:19:28 <oerjan> oh, and i guess i've visited your website too, so you may have my real ISP information there too
17:20:05 <ehird> oerjan: bot on #irp? huh
17:20:17 <oerjan> it was several months ago
17:20:17 <ehird> oerjan: also you could have voted via the shell
17:20:27 <ehird> also, how on earth did that work
17:20:49 <ehird> visited via the shell
17:21:13 <oerjan> i could, but i haven't
17:22:05 <ehird> oerjan: how can i trust you... FIZZERJAN
17:22:25 <oerjan> you cannot. in fact i don't really exist.
17:22:33 <oerjan> i am just a figment of your imagination.
17:22:39 <ehird> oerjan: so is everyone else.
17:22:42 <ehird> apart from oklopol
17:22:45 <ehird> i am a figment of oklopol's imagination
17:25:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, two vritual pcs on the same laptop?
17:26:07 <oerjan> it's all obviously done by a third, overarching personality
17:26:41 <oerjan> a superhacker, i assume
17:26:49 <ehird> oerjan: i.e., fizzerjan
17:27:47 <ehird> oerjan: but fizzerjan is a figment of my imagination
17:27:57 <ehird> why do converstaions with you always end up putting life in a paradoxical singularity
17:28:04 <ehird> also WHY THE FUCK CAN'T I TYPE
17:28:07 <ehird> two days ago i could
17:28:11 <ehird> but what is UP with me now
17:28:21 <oerjan> because you insist on treating them seriously
17:29:37 <oerjan> good. ignoring a figment of your imagination is probably not healthy.
17:31:47 <ehird> * fizzie seconds that
17:38:15 <AnMaster> ehird, so what is your last project?
17:38:19 <ehird> oklopol: 3333333333
17:38:26 <oklopol> oerjan: that's definitely over the time limit
17:39:24 <oerjan> but i had to put in a new garbage bag
17:41:04 <oklopol> yeah, i guess that solves it
17:41:13 <oklopol> but it's not exactly the clean way to do it
17:41:54 <oerjan> well the new bag was clean
17:43:21 <ehird> is it meant to make sense
17:43:45 <oklopol> i mean, it's not like i have a bag full of sugars myself...
17:43:51 <ehird> oklopol: oerjan: that's definitely over the time limit
17:43:52 <ehird> [16:39] oerjan: but i had to put in a new garbage bag
17:43:52 <ehird> [16:41] oklopol: yeah, i guess that solves it
17:43:52 <ehird> [16:41] oklopol: but it's not exactly the clean way to do it
17:43:52 <ehird> [16:41] oerjan: well the new bag was clean
17:43:54 <ehird> [16:42] oerjan: or reasonably so
17:43:56 <oerjan> it's just your overactive imagination
17:44:22 <oerjan> ehird: i just explained to oklopol why i went over the time limit
17:44:38 <ehird> >_< whaaaaattttttt
17:44:48 <oerjan> why there is a time limit, i don't know
17:45:21 <oklopol> yeah you do, you're just ashamed of it
17:46:54 <ehird> i just kind of...eat...
17:47:14 * oerjan is eating too, which is how this started
17:47:16 <oklopol> well you have to make the visible first.
17:47:42 <oerjan> well, it started with AnMaster, but that's not important unless you were ignoring him
17:48:03 <ehird> so that explains things
17:49:28 * oerjan resolves to make more comments that make no sense without listening to AnMaster in the future
17:50:30 <ehird> that's right AnMaster
17:50:35 <ehird> chickens DO do that.
17:50:50 <oerjan> to get to the other side.
17:51:15 <oerjan> before or after the eggs?
17:51:29 <ehird> yes, AnMaster, I know that.
17:51:43 <oerjan> now that's funny, i try to confuse ehird and end up confusing AnMaster instead
17:51:47 <ehird> sheesh. don't belittle my intelligence
17:52:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Shut up about your boots.
17:52:13 <ehird> Your boots are GREEN.
17:52:18 <ehird> Chickens don't even wear boots...
17:52:23 <ehird> what the heck are you blabbing on about
17:52:25 <AnMaster> ehird, you are ignoring me and I'm going to ignore you too if you don't stop these silly highlights
17:53:04 <oerjan> maybe that's for the best.
17:53:11 <ehird> AnMaster: to be fair, your chicken order WAS delightful
17:53:16 <ehird> depsite involving boots
17:53:17 <ehird> i propose a truce.
17:53:24 <ehird> no, no, not a whirlpool
17:53:39 <AnMaster> ehird!*@* added to ignore list.
17:53:43 <oerjan> i am afraid we have succeeded in fracturing ehird's mind
17:53:59 <ehird> oerjan: shut up with your COMMUNIST IDEALS
17:54:03 <ehird> AnMaster's chickens will stop them, I'm sure
17:54:14 <oerjan> ehird: ignorance is strength
17:54:25 <ehird> oerjan: btw, you can confuse both me and AnMaster
17:54:33 <ehird> just talk to me and AnMaster
17:55:06 <ehird> oerjan: so how is your chicken vat
17:55:11 <oerjan> especially if it almost makes sense in both cases
17:55:21 <ehird> you're giving it away damnit
17:55:22 <oerjan> i don't have a chicken
17:56:05 <oerjan> my aunt used to have chickens, i remember
17:56:18 <ehird> tell me again, why are you a communist?
17:56:43 <ehird> are your chickens communistically tasty
17:56:54 <ehird> you haven't involved AnMaster yet, oerjan
17:57:05 <oerjan> you know nothing about that
17:57:14 <oerjan> will you have chicken?
17:57:49 <ehird> as long as it's tasty.
17:58:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, but really, chicken and ice cream!?
17:58:09 <ehird> oerjan: yes you were
17:58:25 <oerjan> that wasn't to you either
17:58:27 <AnMaster> don't know the English word for namnsdag
17:58:58 <ehird> oerjan: dont' give chicken names
17:59:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, namnsdag, as in name-day
17:59:06 <ehird> they are less tasty then
17:59:07 <AnMaster> http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namnsdag
17:59:11 <ehird> or, communists, but they always dislike 'em
17:59:22 <oerjan> those are saints aren't they, at least in catholicism
17:59:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, very common in Sweden, but not elsewhere I guess
18:00:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, actually not today, but dad wasn't home yesterday, so we moved the festivities one day
18:01:05 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_day
18:01:21 -!- optbot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:01:38 <oerjan> the alternative language links in wikipedia are useful for such things
18:01:55 <ehird> optbot do return with new!
18:01:59 <ehird> new data set - of new
18:02:30 -!- optbot has joined.
18:02:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ...I did die.
18:02:40 <ehird> but now you live again
18:03:38 <oerjan> is something wrong with optbot?
18:03:41 <GregorR> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=140#comic
18:05:42 <oerjan> it's had enough of that dying business
18:05:53 -!- optbot has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:06:12 <ehird> ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
18:06:14 <ehird> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
18:06:42 -!- optbot has joined.
18:06:42 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 'vening..
18:06:50 <ehird> optbot: bitches!! yea!!
18:07:06 -!- optbot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:07:22 -!- optbot has joined.
18:07:22 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i was trying to beat you to it :p.
18:07:38 <ehird> optbot: gnnnnnnnnn
18:07:42 <ehird> huntd is at 95% cpu
18:08:01 <optbot> AnMaster: interesting way to express large numbers: "For example, it can be shown that there are 33, 665, 406 possible expressions over the numbers 1, 3, 7, 10, 25, 50, but only 4, 672, 540 of these expressions evaluate successfully, which is just under 14%."
18:08:02 <ehird> optbot: why are you talking to AnMaster
18:08:03 <optbot> ehird: I can't see the ()s being used for anything else there
18:08:33 <optbot> AnMaster: I don't watch pron... :P
18:08:40 <optbot> AnMaster: I think it could be made to generate bfasm code
18:08:41 <oerjan> psygnisfive: be careful, they're not talking
18:09:10 <optbot> AnMaster: only if wallmart sells walls for martians
18:09:10 <oerjan> optbot: some may find that disturbing
18:09:11 <optbot> oerjan: thanks :) but have you got chocolate?
18:09:27 <optbot> oerjan: print "Hello World!".
18:09:44 <optbot> AnMaster: sounds challenging. :) i just remembered
18:09:56 <optbot> AnMaster: i don't like it
18:10:12 <AnMaster> optbot, it == ehird? I understand that easily enough.
18:10:12 <optbot> AnMaster: but you can't mount the directories until the installer has created them
18:10:33 <AnMaster> you could run mkdir to do it optbot
18:10:34 <optbot> AnMaster: Does all jazz sound dissonant to you?
18:10:44 <optbot> AnMaster: rather difficult to match 5 letters with 4 statements
18:10:58 <ehird> i wonder what it is
18:11:03 <ehird> maybe AnMaster was feeding poor optbot cfunge.
18:11:18 <optbot> oerjan: maybe scrap the Generator and have each Device created be a random one.
18:11:29 <optbot> AnMaster: brb making interpreter
18:11:36 <optbot> AnMaster: you can find all the revisions in the wiki data dir
18:11:54 <AnMaster> optbot, nice version control system idea
18:11:54 <optbot> AnMaster: i'm writing a brute-force tic-tac-toe algo for the hell of it
18:12:07 <AnMaster> heh that would be quite simple
18:13:18 <ehird> optbot: AnMaster: i'm writing a brute-force tic-tac-toe algo for the hell of it
18:14:02 <AnMaster> (and no I'm not, currently, ignoring)
18:14:20 <optbot> AnMaster: You as the author have the right to do what you wish, but by default everyone else has no right whatsoever to it.
18:14:33 <ehird> optbot: you... copyrightist!
18:14:34 <optbot> ehird: So just what will you be editing?
18:14:42 <optbot> AnMaster: Those are the ones logged on tunes.org
18:14:42 <optbot> ehird: the digits are clusters of two letters
18:15:05 <optbot> AnMaster: you said it took you an hour
18:15:13 <optbot> AnMaster: it is possible.
18:15:32 <AnMaster> optbot, you are seriously confused.
18:15:32 <optbot> AnMaster: rewrite it to use the cool stuff
18:15:49 <optbot> AnMaster: +ul (o)S( o)(~(ko)*:S~:^):^
18:15:59 <fungot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokok ...too much output!
18:16:11 <optbot> AnMaster: in TI-BASIC? ;)
18:16:17 <optbot> AnMaster: I don't hold any esolang stuff in there so far; I was about to write a page dedicated to Malbolge as the result of working on this
18:16:32 <optbot> AnMaster: what I'm wondering too
18:16:42 <optbot> AnMaster: you removed my "cocks" comment :(
18:16:50 <optbot> AnMaster: this one guy listened to finntroll, a finnish band that sings in swedish... he said he likes how finnish sounds, so i told him that's swedish, not finnish... he said he can't hear the difference
18:17:08 <optbot> AnMaster: because the content of 'message' is HTML
18:17:20 <optbot> AnMaster: assembly language running on a PDP-11 emulator running on a Nintendo DS
18:17:46 <fungot> AnMaster: this isn't really a sane way to do good vm instruction dispatch?' tries `eq?'.
18:19:55 <AnMaster> fungot, should I try awesomewm since I can't stand KDE4?
18:19:55 <fungot> AnMaster: ' alist' does _not_, by the way, if i do an infinite loop
18:20:04 <AnMaster> ^bool should I try awesomewm since I can't stand KDE4?
18:20:07 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help
18:20:14 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^bool
18:20:31 <ehird> soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:20:47 <ehird> optbot: wat suld i koed
18:20:47 <optbot> ehird: This is nice and clean, IMO.
18:20:56 <ehird> oklopol: wat suld i koed
18:22:11 * oerjan suggest a spell checker
18:22:25 <ehird> oerjan: muphry's law
18:22:29 <oerjan> make that a grammar checker too
18:23:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, lets confuse ehird even more :D
18:23:16 <AnMaster> though I bet he is log reading actually
18:23:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, confusing ehird? Hm too easy I guess
18:23:53 <oerjan> and besides, he wouldn't fall for it
18:24:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, nah he would way too easily
18:24:49 <ehird> oerjan: you're talking to AnMaster aren't you.
18:24:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, and how is the chicken?
18:25:07 <oerjan> i TOLD you i don't have a chicken
18:25:40 <ehird> you can't use my own tricks against me
18:26:00 <oerjan> it was more fun when you were both ignoring each other
18:26:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, I weren't actually back then :P
18:26:10 <ehird> i am ignoring AnMaster
18:26:20 <ehird> it's just that he's so predictable :-P
18:26:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, I was ignoring him long enough to stop highlighting me
18:26:30 <oerjan> now _that's_ brilliant :D
18:27:07 <ehird> oerjan: it wasn't that brilliant
18:27:09 <ehird> just a statement of fact
18:27:14 <ehird> (Yes, you were likely talking to AnMaster.)
18:27:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, I switched off ignore after the first time above you said that's brilliant to ehird. and then did log reading
18:27:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, so I managed to trick you it seems :D
18:27:46 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving...").
18:28:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, anyway what about your aardvark then?
18:28:36 <ehird> oerjan: did you really think that would fool me
18:30:25 <oerjan> you weren't supposed to confuse ME :(
18:30:52 <ehird> you are quite obviously talking to AnMaster now.
18:30:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, what pets do you have then?
18:30:54 <oerjan> new theory: AnMaster = ehird
18:31:03 <ehird> heh. i'd have trouble annoying myself that much
18:31:08 <ehird> being that predictable takes some effort.
18:31:24 <oerjan> but that explains how you manage to confuse me
18:31:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, So... what pets do you have?
18:31:49 <ehird> i wonder if i annoyed AnMaster enough he'd leave.
18:32:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh? what ones do you have then?
18:32:15 <oerjan> i think there may be some spiders somewhere here
18:32:20 <ehird> Maybe I could use my botflood script.
18:32:23 <ehird> Though I'd get banned here.
18:32:26 <ehird> Hmm. Maybe in /msg.
18:33:20 <AnMaster> and no way you would get me to leave ever
18:34:14 <ehird> i wonder if he's ranting to the void.
18:34:36 <ehird> oerjan: thank you for the information
18:34:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, more split personality than you
18:34:57 <oerjan> although he started immediately afterwards
18:35:03 <ehird> i imagine AnMaster will always stay here, even if just to annoy me.
18:35:10 <ehird> it's not likehe seemst o have anything better to od.
18:35:14 <ehird> that sentence is messed
18:35:19 <oerjan> that would be about a summeary
18:35:44 <AnMaster> ehird, this I believe is due to you feeling so bad for ignoring me :P
18:36:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, ehird may rant, I don't. I discuss
18:36:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, sure you don't have either aardvark or chickens?
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18:36:49 <oerjan> well the first part is true
18:36:52 <AnMaster> maybe your other personality does?
18:37:09 <oerjan> aardvarks are not norwegian animals
18:37:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, What has Finnish got to do with it?
18:37:37 <ehird> more attempts to confuse me?
18:37:42 <ehird> oerjan: surely you have more class.
18:37:44 <oerjan> sheesh, pay attention!
18:38:35 <oerjan> right you _were_ ignoring ehird then...
18:38:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I was for a bit, but not all the time
18:38:53 <AnMaster> it went back and forth several times
18:39:11 * oerjan wonders if Back is a programming language
18:39:47 <ehird> heh, AnMaster's lack of a sense of humour is more amusing when you only see one side
18:39:54 * oerjan ships AnMaster to Pun Comprehension Classes
18:39:57 <ehird> oerjan wonders if Back is a programming language
18:39:57 <ehird> [17:39] oerjan: because Forth is
18:39:58 <ehird> [17:39] oerjan: sheesh
18:40:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't hate it, but usually I don't find puns that funny
18:41:12 <ehird> oerjan: why the sulking?
18:41:27 <AnMaster> also it is an issue with not being a native English speaker
18:41:34 <oerjan> AnMaster doesn't like puns :´(
18:41:46 <AnMaster> hm ehird reminds me of Drav, oversized ego
18:41:48 <warrie> I think I'll tell some halves of jokes.
18:41:49 <ehird> oerjan: sheesh. how unlikeable
18:41:56 <warrie> Why did the blonde tear apart the newspaper?
18:42:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, someone with an oversized ego
18:42:17 <warrie> How do you kill a blonde?
18:42:22 <AnMaster> I believe he *is* Drav, except ehird is a better programmer
18:42:41 <warrie> Once, I was driving down the road, when I saw a blonde in a boat out in a field.
18:43:31 <oerjan> well at least you got an a
18:44:25 <warrie> Why did the blonde get an A on her test?
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18:44:49 <warrie> I think that half-joke was subconsciously influenced by oerjan.
18:44:56 <warrie> AnMaster: sorry, that's the only half you get.
18:45:40 <oerjan> i don't want to hit anyone with a frying pan again, but if you keep telling half jokes...
18:45:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think they are great
18:46:21 <AnMaster> Why did a blond swat oerjan with a frying pan?
18:46:29 <AnMaster> Why did the blond swat oerjan with a frying pan?
18:46:59 <AnMaster> Why did oerjan swat oerjan with his own frying pan?
18:47:01 <oerjan> it must have been one of my other personalities
18:47:41 <warrie> Why is it impossible to give away a metronome?
18:48:11 <AnMaster> I'm not god at that sort of jokes
18:48:31 <warrie> That one has no punchline.
18:48:48 <AnMaster> warrie, did the previous ones have?
18:49:03 <warrie> Have the other half of a joke: Because it's actually impossible to slam one.
18:49:16 <AnMaster> Why did the oerjan's chicken NOT cross the road?
18:49:28 <oerjan> because it doesn't EXIST stupid
18:49:37 <AnMaster> Why did the ehird's chicken NOT cross the road?
18:49:52 <oerjan> we will never know because he is ignoring you
18:50:01 <warrie> Do warrigals eat chickens, I wonder.
18:50:29 <AnMaster> Why did warrie's aardvark cross the runway?
18:50:59 <AnMaster> hah, nice one but that wasn't the one I planned
18:51:43 <warrie> Because "aardvark" means "little armored one". I suppose it comes from the word "armar", meaning "to armor".
18:51:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, mine was: because he likes random mutations of jokes.
18:52:20 -!- ehird has left (?).
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18:52:29 <ehird> well, bye AnMaster
18:52:35 <ehird> i'm leaving, forever
18:52:37 -!- ehird has left (?).
18:52:39 <oerjan> warrie: you're not confusing it with armadillos?
18:53:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, why did the one-aramditos cross the road?
18:54:11 <warrie> oerjan: it's very difficult to mistake "aardvark" for a word derived from "armar", "-ado", and "-illo".
18:54:17 <oerjan> because he needed to go to school to learn to spell
18:55:00 <oerjan> warrie: yes but you did didn't you?
18:55:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, no the joke was in one-armed bandit -> banditos -> one-armadillo in the end
18:56:14 <oerjan> that's awfully awkward, i say
18:56:42 <warrie> oerjan: only until before I said that "aardvark" means "little armored one".
18:56:50 <warrie> Never say anything until you know it's not true.
18:56:51 <AnMaster> "The name comes from the Afrikaans/Dutch for "earth pig" (aarde earth, varken pig)"
18:56:55 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aardvark
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19:35:14 <AnMaster> what should this do in scheme:
19:35:44 <AnMaster> it seems to return a continuation?
19:35:52 <AnMaster> but I don't understand the logic behind that
19:37:32 <oerjan> well when you evaluate that, it evaluates in some continuation, call it c
19:37:55 <oerjan> the outer call/cc calls the inner with c as argument
19:38:28 <oerjan> now, since scheme is tail call optimizing, the continuation for that is _still_ c
19:38:51 <AnMaster> I'm starting to see where this is leading
19:39:03 <oerjan> and so c is returned to itself
19:39:42 <oerjan> which is the same as the original expression returning its own continuation
19:40:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, am I right in that this continuation isn't very usable though?
19:40:15 <oerjan> btw this is one of the cases for Subtle Cough on the wiki
19:40:35 <oerjan> that would depend what is around it...
19:41:45 <oerjan> for one thing, you could use it as a kind of goto label
19:42:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, it needs a parameter though
19:42:16 <oerjan> whenever you call (c c), you go back to the same point
19:42:46 <AnMaster> and I still find call/cc very confusing
19:42:49 <oerjan> if you call it with something else, it could get even more confusing
19:43:19 <oerjan> calling a continuation after it has returned is pretty confusing yes
19:43:32 <oerjan> it's sort of backtracking
19:44:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed. I can handle calling continuations *before* return
19:44:35 <oerjan> calling it before it has returned is easier, that's more like a break
19:48:10 <oerjan> now say you want to use this for actual backtracking
19:49:42 <oerjan> you could then do (call/cc (lambda (c) (cons c #f)))
19:50:15 <oerjan> that returns a pair of the continuation with #f
19:50:42 <oerjan> so you can then save the continuation, and branch on the #f
19:50:58 <oerjan> and when you want to backtrack, you call (c (cons c #t))
19:51:21 <oerjan> and so you go back, and take the other branch
19:58:09 <oerjan> i'm sure there are more clever uses to be found on the web
20:16:38 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
20:22:17 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: that mundane magic thing reminds me of what I thought was a very nice touch in one of the H.P. movies: one guy in the background using magic to put chairs on pub tables, while clearing up. It shows how utterly mundane magic is to these people.
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20:58:41 <fizzie> Helloes again. What's this about a fizzerjan?
21:16:13 <warrie> See if I made any mistakes: 01234567890246893579470369580481371496059725061516263827398307408417528531864299
21:34:20 -!- ehird has joined.
21:35:42 <ehird> your colour schemer only ever seem to generate like 10 unique colour schemes
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21:37:40 <asiekierk> Oh, as fungot has an underload interpreter, thutubot isn't useful anymore? aah
21:37:41 <fungot> asiekierk: come from is a trivial search-and-replace for baz? x)
21:44:58 <AnMaster> I would just point you to the esolang wiki
21:45:49 <SimonRC> hmm, interesting... http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/dreams-of-frien.html
21:46:02 <AnMaster> asiekierk, if you want me to "teach" you would have to "pay"
21:46:13 <SimonRC> partly becasue it shoews why friendly AI is very hard to get right, even if AI is easy...
21:46:27 <AnMaster> answering specific questions about languages I actually know sure.
21:47:10 <AnMaster> also while I know underload I'm not good at it, and unlambda I don't know at all
21:47:13 <SimonRC> and partly because I mihgt like to read about the story of such an AI that manages to manipulate the world into letting it escape without people thinking it will be able to escape
21:47:43 <SimonRC> Friendly AI -or- how to take over the world when no-one trusts you even to have a body
22:01:47 <asiekierk> Oh my god, how long can Boehm GC compile on Windoze?
22:02:59 <ehird> asiekierk: 5 minutes is not long
22:04:27 <asiekierk> ...You are kidding me. it's doing it ALL OVER AGAIN?
22:04:58 <ehird> asiekierk: how long is your attention span...?
22:08:44 <ehird> asiekierk: w...hat
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22:11:58 <fizzie> What sort of hat is a w-hat?
22:12:48 <GregorR> ehird: With the restrictions I've placed on pages, it's difficult to generate much purely randomly. If it did it more intelligently it would probably generate more.
22:13:10 <ehird> GregorR: if you watch http://elliott.hird.name.eso-std.org/ it pretty much cycles the same few colour schemes
22:13:28 <GregorR> <GregorR> ehird: With the restrictions I've placed on pages, it's difficult to generate much purely randomly. If it did it more intelligently it would probably generate more.
22:14:53 <GregorR> I've counted at least 9 distinctively unique ones.
22:16:04 <ehird> odd, i don't seem to get that many
22:18:02 <optbot> AnMaster: so only funge space and anything meddling with z dimension would need changing
22:27:47 <warrie> Supposing I were infinitely intelligent, I could probably take over the world through my computer.
22:29:27 <ehird> warrie: with no net connection?
22:29:53 <warrie> With an Internet connection.
22:30:12 <ehird> warrie: Who would give an infinitely intelligent AI a net connection?!
22:36:51 <warrie> Maybe a person who already had an Internet connection became infinitely intelligent through a freak accident.
22:38:14 <warrie> If that happened to me, I suppose I might make extremely large amounts of money, buy the world, and begin colonizing the Solar System.
22:40:40 <ehird> warrie: then kill all humans?
22:41:38 <warrie> I'll let my successor kill all humans.
22:44:39 <warrie> Maybe killing all humans would require too much effort, though, similar to destroying all flu viruses in the universe.
22:45:58 <warrie> It's plausible that a flu virus will get on some object that is sent into outer space never to return. The object could then get smashed into bits, and then we'd have lots of bits, each of them having a probability of having the virus on it.
22:49:52 <warrie> I suppose you could break the human-inhabitable universe into bits too small to contain humans.
22:54:54 <SimonRC> actually, I have hear on the radio a story called "Understand" about a person who gets a superhuman nervous system
22:55:37 <SimonRC> heh does cool stuff like figure out how to kill people by manipulating their phsyiology into positive-feedback loops using subtleties of body language
22:56:15 <SimonRC> and it seems that with just one rough peer, the world isn't big enough for the both of them
22:57:42 <warrie> People ought to figure out how to control their own physiology in a way that could kill them.
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22:58:14 <warrie> Have you heard of pointing the bone?
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23:44:24 <SimonRC> warrie: ah, yeah, the mthod by which "witch doctors" can (apparently) kill people
23:44:58 <GregorR> It's one of those fascinating little corners of human psychology.
23:45:17 * SimonRC recalls the time when, while trying to activate his sleep paralysis mechinism while conscious, he managed to twiddle his body's themostat instead.
23:45:23 <GregorR> People believe so strongly that the shaman has this power, that they will die by the placebo effect alone.
23:45:59 <SimonRC> I'd love to see some eeg, ecg, etc of that
23:46:59 <SimonRC> (I got a sufficient fever to give me that room shrinking but remaining same size effect, and tohat everythning has a newsprint texture feeling.)
23:47:09 <SimonRC> (but it wore off a few minutes after ceasing meditation)
23:47:26 <SimonRC> or rather "``meditation''"
23:53:27 <ehird> SimonRC: zoooooooooop, man
23:53:42 <ehird> postfix interaction with majordomo2
23:53:45 <ehird> it is you that i despise
23:53:47 <ehird> for your non-workingness
00:06:05 <ehird> SimonRC: fix majordomo2, please.
00:06:45 <GregorR> I tried but I screwed it up
00:07:20 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | in that context.
00:09:08 <ehird> GregorR: YOU FIX IT
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00:58:49 <SimonRC> Secret military resource naming FAIL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SF_Hydro
01:00:31 <SimonRC> (It was used for shipping heavy water)
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01:26:20 * SimonRC detects some similarities to Pascal's Wager here: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/ethical-injunct.html#more
01:31:49 <SimonRC> ah, maybe he is not making a silly mistake: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/ends-dont-justi.html
01:32:42 <SimonRC> Summary: the ends don't ustify the means because you're human; other types of intelligence could have "the ends do justify the means" or even "the ends do not prohibit the means".
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02:14:00 <SimonRC> If anyone asks what is fast or slow oon an intel architecture, hit them with this 512-page document: http://www.intel.com/design/processor/manuals/248966.pdf
02:14:40 <SimonRC> oops, no, it is the "Optimisation Reference Manual"
02:15:09 <SimonRC> fucking hell, what is the world coming to if we need that much documentation to optimise machine code
02:17:21 <SimonRC> well, maybe that isn't that bad
02:21:38 <SimonRC> The AMD equivalent is a lightweight by comparison: a mere 384 pages.
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02:43:52 <adu> so anything new?
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04:01:55 <warrie> Let me take this moment to point out that if I find Obama's tax plan really boring, I'm uninterested, while if I'm not affected by it because I live in Ireland, I'm disinterested.
04:02:13 <warrie> Because I'm allowed to say anything at all after... nine minutes have passed without any conversation.
04:16:50 <warrie> Excellent demonstration of the nine-minute principle.
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07:12:29 <oerjan> also, i didn't know warrie was irish.
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09:28:41 <SimonRC> it occurs to me that if one is looking for a person that won't be persuaded to let the AI out of the box, then a mailing list full of singularitarians who aren't philosophers is probably not the best place to start
09:29:26 * SimonRC feels irriated by philosophers
09:29:44 <oerjan> it's very dangerous to be irradiated by philosophers
09:30:06 <SimonRC> AFAICT the only way to argue with them and not have your opinion changed is either to be a philsopher yourself or to be very closed-minded
09:31:02 <oerjan> i refuse to consider that ridiculous statement
09:31:36 <SimonRC> I wonder if any have had a hobby of persuading random mentally-healthy people to kill themselves
09:31:48 <SimonRC> could a court convict you of murder?
09:31:59 <oerjan> you've been reading about that stone too? :D
09:32:13 <SimonRC> oerjan: no, and I don't want to know
09:32:44 * oerjan somehow got started on Overcoming Bias today
09:33:03 <oerjan> well, "somehow" == "from this channel", of course
09:33:27 <SimonRC> fortunately most of the opinions I gained from that blog seem to have faded away over time
09:33:46 <SimonRC> (or rather, I my desire to know is outweighed by the anticipation that I would regret asking)
09:37:05 <AnMaster> <SimonRC> The AMD equivalent is a lightweight by comparison: a mere 384 pages. <-- hah I read that one iirc
09:37:41 <SimonRC> how are thy different from Intel?
09:38:15 <optbot> SimonRC: .. how many do you have?
09:39:09 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | don't scan just as black and white.
09:44:28 <oerjan> darn now i may have to find a hangman ascii picture
09:46:59 <SimonRC> dude, vertical ain't going to work with the 5-sec delay
09:54:43 <oerjan> well someone's got to be it
09:57:51 * AnMaster waits for SimonRC to list his first char
09:59:23 <SimonRC> um, waitamo, I can't spell
09:59:25 <AnMaster> (or I'm going afk because it is too boring)
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10:02:03 <AnMaster> SimonRC, how could you *NOT* pick aardvark?
10:02:18 <SimonRC> AnMaster: well, there would be a third a
10:03:01 <AnMaster> just saw it in /usr/share/dict/words
10:03:40 <AnMaster> Definitions of Aaronite on the Web:
10:03:40 <AnMaster> * A kohen (or cohen, Hebrew כּהן, "priest", pl. כּהנִים, kohanim or cohanim) has a special status in Judaism. ...
10:03:40 <AnMaster> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaronite
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10:39:18 <oklopol> hangman is much more fun as follows, with two players: one chooses a word, other guesses, then the first guy guesses; here, the other guy comes up with a word that would fit what there currently is, and adds letters accordingly; now the first guy changes his word, and this continues until both guys' words converge into the same word, the one who guesses it first wins
10:40:34 <oklopol> i invented this in the sauna once, it's much harder than hangman, and you don't need the actual hanging man, even, because you want to hang yourself anyway, after a while of playing
11:03:17 <SimonRC> what if you can't think of a word that fits?
11:07:20 <SimonRC> what if a programming language's terminology was not mathematical but from elsewhere?
11:07:20 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | psshhh.
11:07:52 <SimonRC> instead of the singleton pattern, we would hve the phoenix pattern
11:08:24 * SimonRC tires to think of more examples...
11:32:40 <oklopol> but there will always be a word, if whatever weird word the opponent may have chosen.
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12:13:24 <Deewiant> SimonRC: the songbird combinators come to mind
12:14:08 <Deewiant> http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/cus/combinator/birds.html
12:16:47 <oklopol> i want to mock a mockingbird.
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13:05:11 <SimonRC> which combinator is the mockingbird?
13:05:22 * SimonRC realises it would be easier o look
13:06:39 <SimonRC> ah, no, it's self-application
13:07:36 <SimonRC> ah, I see, I was confusing self-application with the Y combinator
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13:18:25 <AnMaster> like that eso lang that looks like a recipe
13:23:58 <SimonRC> AnMaster: what do you mean "why birds"?
13:24:06 <SimonRC> I didn't express a particular preference for birds
13:24:21 <ehird> i am so glad I am not seeing AnMaster's messages.
13:34:50 <ehird> [[as schiavo, or "dead while breathing".]] - mundane magic article
13:39:21 <SimonRC> ehird: indeed. In terms of metaphor potential, Teri Schiavo is the new Hellen Keller.
13:40:01 <ehird> SimonRC: in the future, "schiavo" will be an epithet meaning "useless".
13:40:03 <ehird> that is my prediction.
13:41:31 <SimonRC> actually, the two women are opposites
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13:46:38 * ehird watches his slow download
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13:48:56 <ehird> it is veeeeeeeeeery slow.
14:08:13 * SimonRC goes away. (Connotation inference FAIL: http://www.clusterstock.com/2008/10/forget-the-bailout-let-s-just-pray )
14:22:06 <ehird> http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/30oct_ftes.htm?list179029
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15:20:26 <asiekierk> I wonder why i'm compiling the original Unlambda v2 interpreter.
15:20:31 <asiekierk> I think i'll give out the binaries
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16:37:32 <oerjan> <ehird> SimonRC: in the future, "schiavo" will be an epithet meaning "useless".
16:37:47 <oerjan> incidentally the original italian means "slave"
16:38:07 <oerjan> why anyone would use that as a surname is beyond me
16:38:50 <oerjan> it's rather self-deprecating
16:39:18 <Deewiant> or maybe somebody else gave the name and it just stuck
16:47:38 <oerjan> <asiekierk> I wonder why i'm compiling the original Unlambda v2 interpreter.
16:48:28 <oerjan> (i think that is the original one. there are a lot of implementations in the distribution.)
16:48:52 <oerjan> the original C one may be awkward, as it requires Boehm's GC iirc
16:49:34 <oerjan> iirc the C one is derived from the Java one
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16:49:48 <oerjan> yeah just be like that
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16:50:35 <oerjan> other than that there is at least SML and Ocaml
16:51:12 <oerjan> as well as Haskell and INTERCAL which you may find elsewhere
16:52:30 <oerjan> oh and there is Mandelson's fast C implementation, which unfortunately is not quite according to spec iirc
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16:53:10 <oerjan> i think it broke on my heavily d-using program or something like that
16:53:33 <oerjan> asiekierka: the one that requires Boehm?
16:54:57 <oerjan> right on Windows too...
16:55:38 <oerjan> the reference-count version is supposedly the easiest to port iirc
16:55:52 <oerjan> being completely portable C
16:59:12 <asiekierka> Since i also wondered whether to make Unlambdii
16:59:49 <oerjan> of course if you have Java easily available you might want to use that one too
17:00:28 <oerjan> although that implementation iirc had the issue of not following Java's policy of only one class per file
17:01:26 <oerjan> which gave me trouble enough to give up when i considered modifying it
17:02:38 <oerjan> but i didn't try hard, i suppose
17:07:21 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ...management.
17:07:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | my current approach leads to <3000 bytes in a few seconds, but i'm interested in other (possibly better) algorithms as well :).
17:15:45 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I think I got input server working.
17:21:02 <optbot> asiekierka: movement of elements of the syntax
17:21:23 <optbot> asiekierka: Whatever most naturally maps to the language in question, I guess.
17:21:24 <oerjan> optbot: ITYM elements the syntax of movement
17:21:24 <optbot> oerjan: that result is reversed at the end where krishnamurthi got into a brief fnord with a normal distribtion, 95% are within 2 feet of it.
17:22:05 <oerjan> optbot: how observant of you
17:22:05 <optbot> oerjan: and so do quite a few others.
17:22:47 <optbot> asiekierka: do you want to try it with the german langpack ^^^
17:23:00 <oerjan> btw, never get into fnords with normal distributions. you're not going to get out alive.
17:23:15 <oerjan> unless you're krishnamurthi or fisher
17:24:19 <oerjan> student tried and all that remained was a t
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17:27:19 <ehird> I wonder what the music tastes of #esoteric are./
17:28:04 * oerjan thinks he's already admitted to liking Abba
17:28:52 <oerjan> but then i'm old as a mountain, so i'm excused
17:29:33 * ehird is listening to Autechre - Bine, at the moment.
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17:30:33 <ehird> chiptunes are pretty awesome
17:31:11 <asiekierka> 3) YOU DON'T NEED TO PAY TO BUY THEM, or even YOU DON'T NEED TO BUY THEM *usually*
17:31:25 <ehird> how do you buy something without paying
17:31:46 <asiekierka> TO GIVE CASH TO STUPID COMPANIES SO THEY CAN FUND DRM i meant
17:32:17 <asiekierka> 1 month, 23 days until my xmas special's released
17:32:41 * oerjan assumes some of the copyright/patent people will be first against the wall when the revolution comes
17:34:35 <oerjan> now where is that butterfly?
17:35:09 <oerjan> or is that a Mac thing? i have some vague recall there
17:35:43 * oerjan sees no butterfly here
17:36:37 <ehird> i was making an xkcd reference
17:36:55 <ehird> http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/real_programmers.png
17:38:30 <oerjan> not a windows thing, then
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18:31:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: whoa, you're alive
18:31:30 <bsmntbombdood> but i think we can safely say that real programmers use ed
18:32:01 <Deewiant> real programmers don't need to write their code down
18:32:55 <oklopol> real programmers don't even *exist*.
18:33:28 <ehird> Deewiant: he was actually being litera
18:33:32 <ehird> oklopol: means that there are no programmers
18:33:47 <ehird> i'm like the okointerpreter
18:34:04 <ehird> bit enthusiastic there
18:34:13 <oklopol> i'm tired. i'm tired all day every day is someone feeding me pills or something?
18:34:37 <oklopol> knew you'd say that. you're such a feedr
18:56:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: talk in here more often
18:57:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you or #esoteric
18:57:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but this place is so boring.
18:57:29 <ehird> it needs your blend of orgy and scheme code.
18:58:31 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: i'll consider that
18:58:51 <oklopol> also, tomorrow, i can koedddd, it's my coding day code all day yayayy :-)
18:59:21 <oklopol> well, i'm also gonna go buy that one book, but that's only like 600 pages
18:59:30 <oklopol> who am i kidding, i'm just gonna read all day :<
18:59:47 <ehird> when you do the coding
18:59:53 <oklopol> and you only hear the positions of objects
19:00:00 <oklopol> from teh stereo audio thingio
19:00:03 <ehird> oklopol: make a bot, and a language impl, and that 4d game thing you were making
19:00:11 <ehird> it'll be just like april 08
19:00:28 <oklopol> what happened in april 08?
19:00:34 <ehird> umm i dunno but it was that kind of time
19:00:40 <ehird> of botting and languaging and stuff and yeah
19:00:52 <oklopol> that was pretty active time for me
19:01:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: dc?
19:01:09 <oklopol> after that, courses ended, and i started getting lazier.
19:01:25 <oklopol> and now that they've started again, i'm hogging so many of them that i can't really get anything else done.
19:01:45 <ehird> oklopol: you have a lot of catching up to do tomorrow then
19:01:50 <oklopol> doesn't help that i want to pass all courses with a perfect grade
19:01:58 <ehird> i will make the ultimate markov chain bot to beat you to it, ofc.
19:02:33 <oklopol> yeah markov chains in bitxtreme!
19:04:19 <oklopol> noprob news: realized i could do as follows: remove all random vars, a var's probability is just the portion of clause assignments where it's true *at the moment of being used as a probability*
19:04:42 <oklopol> this basically means the "probability" of a variable is not an inherent property
19:05:04 <oklopol> it can *change*, and actually reflects more what the program knows about the variable's dependencies
19:06:10 <oklopol> that would be considerably less pure, but i like how it's a bit like prolog's cut; the language is very clearly declarative, but it has a construct that is very clearly attached to how the language is actually implemented on an imperative machine
19:07:02 <oklopol> i also had some other language idea, but i can't seem to recall it now.
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19:07:12 <oklopol> gotta go buy something energetic to drink
19:07:36 <oklopol> reading about distributed computing in java is making me sleepy for a reason or two
19:10:31 <oklopol> actually it's quite weird imo that everyone is making imperative languages
19:11:29 <oklopol> i find it much more interesting to create declarative ones
19:11:43 <oklopol> mainly because there aren't that many of them
19:12:12 <oklopol> (i mean assuming aiming for originality)
19:12:19 <oklopol> (which i'm always aiming for)
19:12:47 <oklopol> (also the shop, i'm gonna go)
19:14:35 <oklopol> [orgy time ]sa[laPdx]dx <<< i still don't get this.
19:14:40 <oklopol> someone explain it while i'm gone
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19:23:35 <oerjan> someone said it was in dc
19:24:24 <oerjan> http://linux.die.net/man/1/dc
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20:57:39 <GregorR> These banana split Oreos really aren't very good.
21:00:14 <oklopol> says the guy who kills kittens...
21:01:14 <oklopol> well i guess they aren't good then.
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21:51:13 <pikhq> AnMaster: You've been helping put the Gentoo Wiki back together?
21:52:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes I used to be a very active (1000+ edits) about a year ago
21:54:02 <pikhq> I'm not much of an editor on the wiki, but I'm quite fond of it...
21:54:21 <pikhq> One of the better sites for Linux howtos, Gentoo and otherwise.
21:55:35 <AnMaster> there is a site with the google cache rescued stuff
21:56:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, doesn't have all, but quite a bit
21:56:10 <AnMaster> for images however: way back machine
21:56:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh and we can't restore directly from that cache... Reason: a certain level of QA is now required
21:58:01 <pikhq> So, only some of those pages are acceptable.
21:58:13 <pikhq> Namely, the ones that were actually good-quality.
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22:10:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes and they may need a bit of rework sometimes
22:29:30 <GregorR> Why don't the sell cat food that's actually made of the food cats would get in the wild.
22:29:52 <GregorR> Where's the roach and spider bits in rat gravy?
22:31:09 <oklopol> CAN'T FIND CATS TO KILL WITHOUT A GOOD BAIT HUH?
22:47:51 <Jiminy_Cricket> GregorR, I thought it was illegal to sell human body parts.
22:55:16 <warrie> Why would it be illegal to sell human body parts?
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03:44:59 <psygnisfive> BITCHES DONT KNOW BOUT MY MINIMALIST PROGRAM
03:50:21 <GregorR> Is that where you only have sex with asians HAW HAW HAW
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04:01:17 <psygnisfive> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Pepper
04:01:59 <GregorR> You rarely see something /flavored/ with ammonia salt:P
04:07:11 <psygnisfive> where they apparently put ammonium chloride on EVERYTHING
04:50:14 <bsmntbombdood> no, a way of communicating binary data over noisy channels
04:50:36 <psygnisfive> well.. yes, but apparently specifically designed for PGPed stuff. :P
05:04:39 <pikhq> It would be especially handy for, say, PGP key signatures.
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05:47:07 <oklopol> psygnisfive: no i don't especially like that
05:47:29 <oklopol> then again i don't like candy at al
05:49:43 <oklopol> but i especially don't like ammonium chloride on candy; i *do* like it as raw powder though.
05:50:31 <psygnisfive> i can just see you snorting likes of salmiakki
05:58:35 <oklopol> nah you don't get high from it
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06:18:41 <oklopol> yes, i agree, that is some fine ice cream
06:30:10 <oklopol> why thank you, i think this dress looks pretty too.
06:31:41 <psygnisfive> whoa whoa i can barely read what i wrote there, buddy
06:32:09 <psygnisfive> tones randomly left out for ease of typing
06:32:46 <oklopol> is mandarin trendy now? everyone seems to know spike it
06:33:02 <psygnisfive> mandarin is the language of the future, havent you ever seen Firefly?
06:34:20 <fizzie> What I wrote comes courtesy of Google Translate, I have no idea how someone who actually speaks the language would read it.
06:35:13 <fizzie> oklopol: What language did it speak to you?
06:37:41 <oklopol> i have an exam in 23 minutes
06:38:21 <oklopol> our lecturer is such a funny dude
06:38:27 <oklopol> i mean, in one of his notes
06:38:36 <oklopol> there's this brilliant caption
06:38:42 <oklopol> about sockets (but not about sugar)
06:39:08 <oklopol> i wonder if it makes any sense.
06:39:39 <fizzie> The best picture caption I've seen was in a mathematics journal I saw on the "new journal issues" table of our library. There was a picture of some graph, and underneath it: "Fig. 1: A fascinating picture."
06:40:37 <fizzie> After that I've had a habit of using "A fascinating picture." as a placeholder text for image captions when writing LaTeX or such.
06:41:02 <oklopol> hmm, i should prolly consider thinking about leaving
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08:27:43 <pikhq> The Sims: The Movie.
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10:35:30 <ais523> also, I like the name oklon
10:35:43 <oklon> it's kinda cute shurr.
10:36:23 <oklon> oh and hi AnMaster!
10:36:51 <AnMaster> (spelling actually intentional)
10:37:21 <oklon> (yeah that i know it was)
10:39:26 <AnMaster> ais523, which of these pics would you say look best? http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Image:GIMP_CGI_3_channel_mix.png http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Image:GIMP_CGI_3_blend.png
10:40:04 <ais523> the blend one, but I like them both
10:40:16 <AnMaster> ais523, what about this one: http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Image:GIMP_CGI_4.png
10:40:46 <ais523> I like that one but not as much as the others
10:41:20 <AnMaster> oklon, images generated in a few minutes with gimp's flame plugin as examples for the article http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/GIMP_Fractal_Backgrounds
10:41:32 <AnMaster> most of those minutes were spent by gimp calculating
10:42:02 <AnMaster> thanks (I generated those three)
10:42:33 <AnMaster> http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Image:GIMP_CGI_3_base.png <-- the blend one before colourising it
10:43:06 <AnMaster> well if you want a green version of it
10:43:20 <oklon> that looks like a nice setting for a game
10:43:22 <AnMaster> hm I should make some fractal "which one do you like best"
10:43:37 <AnMaster> or did you mean the same as me?
10:43:42 <oklon> well i wanna play it even though it's a picture.
10:44:17 <AnMaster> oklon, it takes several minutes to generate one of those
10:44:49 <oklon> err yeah for gimp, but that's just threads that wimble around
10:45:26 <oklon> i want like a strategy game where you're like a virus that infects things, with those graphics
10:45:58 <AnMaster> oklon, something like a reverse Darwinia?
10:46:03 <oklon> esoteric games have been stealing my interest quite a lot these days
10:46:28 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think wimble is a real word, but I sort of know what oklon means anyway
10:46:38 <AnMaster> Definitions of wimble on the Web:
10:46:38 <AnMaster> * A boring tool, such as a gimlet or auger.
10:46:38 <AnMaster> www.chaddsfordhistory.org/history/glossary.htm
10:46:43 <oklon> darwinia? isn't that just a 2d strategy game with no interesting aspects
10:46:52 <ais523> ok, I didn't know that meaning
10:46:56 <oklon> 3d in graphics, but not movement.
10:47:16 <AnMaster> ais523, what did oklon mean then?
10:47:41 <AnMaster> Definitions of gimlet on the Web:
10:47:41 <AnMaster> * A cocktail composed of sugar syrup, lime juice, vodka (or gin) and sometimes soda water.
10:47:42 <ais523> I interpreted it as meaning wandering around in a vague and non-purposeful way
10:47:59 <ais523> although that probably isn't exactly what oklon meant by it, I hope it's close
10:48:03 <oklon> darwinia's *story* may have to do with viruses, but it's just a strategy game
10:48:17 <oklon> ais523: yeah it's exactly what i mean
10:48:19 <AnMaster> oklon, I never played it, due to being closed source
10:48:35 <oklon> AnMaster: me neither, but a friend of mine did
10:49:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nice idea, poor implementation
10:49:32 <oklon> Deewiant: what's great about it?
10:49:49 <oklon> isn't it just move-soldiers-around
10:50:18 <oklon> hmm, actually there may have been something about saving some neutral thingies?
10:50:23 <Deewiant> like I said it's a work of art; I find it captures the retro feel of cannon fodder really well
10:50:45 <Deewiant> if you look at just the gameplay aspects it's not that special, true.
10:51:00 <oklon> i only look at gameplay aspects
10:51:13 <oklon> story and graphics are for kids and noobs
10:51:44 <Deewiant> you need all four (+ sound) to have a complete game
10:51:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, really? What about nethack?
10:52:00 <Deewiant> if you're going to leave something out or do it poorly it has to be balanced out
10:52:14 <Deewiant> text adventures have no graphics or sound
10:52:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nethack have graphics
10:52:24 <Deewiant> they make up for it with descriptions which cause your imagination to fill in the gaps
10:52:42 <oklon> text adventures are all about story, usually, they have their puzzles, which may work as minigames, but overall they usually suck.
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10:53:09 <Deewiant> bah, no point in talking to you guys :-P
10:53:21 <oklon> and story is even less interesting than graphics, i actually *prefer* games without a story, whereas graphics i may occasionally find nice.
10:53:36 <ais523> AnMaster: actually NetHack does have sound, I just don't think it's supported on any platforms which still exist
10:53:41 <oklon> Deewiant: i'm pretty sure it's always pointless to talk to me :P
10:53:50 <ais523> if you play a tune on an in-game instrument on the Amiga, you get the same tune out of its speakers
10:53:50 <oklon> AnMaster: rpg's are utterly uninteresting
10:54:18 <ais523> oklon: NetHack doesn't have a story, it's all about gameplay because it doesn't really have graphics either
10:54:24 <ais523> and personally I play games for the gameplay
10:54:32 <ais523> it isn't a text adventure, it's ASCII art graphics...
10:54:34 <oklon> ais523: well true, i like that kind of... umm... "extracted" rpg's
10:55:01 <ais523> oklon: I'm writing a text adventure which is nothing but subgames, and they're all eso-programming related
10:55:02 <oklon> where it's so simplified and purified it really doesn't have anything to do with the real world anymore
10:55:05 <ais523> although I haven't got very far
10:55:56 <oklon> yeah i do like games that are basically just stringing-together's of subgames
10:56:32 <oklon> also i occasionally like stories that are completely separate from the gameplay, for instance in world of goo i enjoyed the story
10:56:54 <ais523> I remember a while back ehird made it into a webapp and ehird and someone else (was it AnMaster?) had a go at the 3 puzzles I've created so far
10:56:55 <oklon> ais523: i know that game
10:57:16 <oklon> didn't do the puzzles, but i heard the spoilers, which is essentially the same! ;)
10:57:27 <ais523> can you still remember the spoilers?
10:57:34 <ais523> if not, you may still enjoy the puzzles
10:57:50 <ais523> incidentally, I submitted one as a puzzle in Agora, and got lots of interesting answers, including someone who brute-forced the best solution
10:57:55 <ais523> none of us in #esoteric found it
10:58:06 <oklon> i don't forget things that are of eternal relevance, as puzzle solutions always are
10:58:09 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe you didn't see it
10:58:38 <oklon> well, actually i didn't hear the solution of the staircase thing.
10:59:01 <oklon> and i guess that was the interesting one
10:59:16 <ais523> AnMaster: probably no longer online
10:59:38 <oklon> hmm you had brainfuck, that step thing the name of which i can't remember, and what was the last one?
10:59:53 <oklon> anyway you could have like a piano in one room and have a fugue puzzle
11:00:00 <ais523> there was a Brainfuck puzzle, where you entered brainfuck puzzles
11:00:11 <ais523> and you had to deduce from the reaction of the things in the room what you had to write
11:00:17 <ais523> a SMETANA puzzle which is the step thing
11:00:26 <ais523> where I actually made the steps of the program into a staircase
11:00:38 <ais523> and you could walk up and down it swapping the steps around
11:00:53 <ais523> and an INTERCAL puzzle which was basically a 2D version of INTERCAL where you were the IP and could change direction at will
11:01:00 <ais523> and had to get to the other end of the program
11:01:15 <ais523> most of my esoprogram puzzles have the player as a free-willed IP
11:01:30 <ais523> but that's effected by gotos and such, so you can't just walk to the other end of the room
11:01:36 <ais523> (and COME FROMs in the case of INTERCAL)
11:02:14 <AnMaster> ais523, you got to find the link :D
11:02:25 <ais523> as I said, I don't think it's online at the moment
11:02:30 <ais523> I still have the program as an offline program though
11:02:37 <ais523> and I can send you source which you can compile and have a go at
11:02:44 <AnMaster> ais523, that violates "uris are fixed" that w3c likes ;)
11:03:21 <ais523> would paste.eso-std.org be OK, as you have to save the file to compile it anyway?
11:03:26 <ais523> or shall I use a different one?
11:03:47 <oklon> muriel might make an interesting puzzle of some sort
11:03:58 <ais523> most esolangs do, that's the charm of the game
11:04:43 <ais523> AnMaster: http://paste.eso-std.org/h
11:04:49 <ais523> and anyone else interested fwiw
11:05:23 <ais523> although it could do with a better name
11:05:37 <ais523> probably I'm going to restructure the game to some extent too, it sort-of starts in the middle atm
11:05:49 <ais523> and none of the puzzles connect, you have to quit once you solve them
11:06:03 <ais523> and the INTERCAL one doesn't even react when you've solved it because I haven't created a room beyond there
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11:07:26 <oklon> hmm, i should probably check out the c++ spec for a good structure for delicious funge's spec
11:08:47 <ais523> AnMaster: why the capital huh?
11:08:47 <AnMaster> ais523, don't have time to figure out that game atm
11:08:57 <AnMaster> ais523, because caps lock was on
11:08:58 <ais523> what's confusing about it though?
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11:09:16 <ais523> ah, probably you should try one of the others
11:09:17 <oklon> Delicious Funge is an attempt at a modern Funge variant with an infinite-dimensional fungespace on reals, (optional) strong, static typing, variables, scopes, lambdas, fully fledged OOP using message passing with single and multiple inheritance, metaclasses, generalized Funge stacks, language-level support for threads, networking and GUI, flexible debugging tools, just-in-time compiling, extendable syntax, modules, namespaces, dynami
11:09:40 <ais523> the smetana one's the easiest one to 'get' what you have to do
11:09:44 <ais523> even if you don't know SMETANA
11:10:12 <AnMaster> ais523, I dislike text adventures
11:10:19 <AnMaster> too hard to remember or get a pic of where you are
11:10:26 <oklon> hmm, the c++ spec is not freeee?
11:10:28 <ais523> that's why they have look commands
11:10:30 <AnMaster> I prefer isomeric, or at least look down
11:10:46 <ais523> oklon: I'm pretty sure it is, I've come across free versions before, although I don't know if they're the official one or a draft
11:10:52 <fizzie> It's very much not free.
11:10:55 <fizzie> But the drafts are free.
11:10:58 <ais523> ISO will definitely sell you the official one for money, that doesn't mean you can't necessarily get a free one
11:10:59 <AnMaster> <oklon> Delicious Funge is an attempt at a modern Funge variant with an infinite-dimensional fungespace on reals, (optional) strong, static typing, variables, scopes, lambdas, fully fledged OOP using message passing with single and multiple inheritance, metaclasses, generalized Funge stacks, language-level support for threads, networking and GUI, flexible debugging tools, just-in-time compiling, exten
11:10:59 <AnMaster> dable syntax, modules, namespaces, dynam
11:11:10 <ais523> ah, and it's like C, all the versions except the official one are free, then
11:11:18 <fizzie> So if you just want to look at the format, see http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2005/n1905.pdf or something.
11:11:33 <fizzie> There are later drafts too, probably.
11:11:47 <oklon> AnMaster: that's all i have sofar, i'm basically just listing features atm, and figuring out how to integrate them with funge.
11:12:28 <AnMaster> (get a clients that splits, instead of cutting off
11:12:34 <oklon> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p513415413.txt
11:12:37 <ais523> btw, someone in another channel just claimed that "poke" was Finnish for "bouncer", can anyone here who knows Finnish confirm/deny?
11:13:08 <oklon> the kinda bouncer that kicks people off party doors
11:13:16 <AnMaster> oklon, what about privilege levels?
11:13:24 <AnMaster> like ring 0 and ring 3 threads
11:13:32 <AnMaster> oklon, there is even an existing example
11:13:33 <oklon> AnMaster: right a whole 100 page chapter about security!
11:14:07 <AnMaster> oklon, http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~ajo/funge/#Fungus
11:14:11 <oklon> ring 0 and ring 3 threads? err like, usermode and kernel mode and shit?
11:14:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I think you will enjoy that link too
11:15:15 <oklon> i don't think i'll have that. too low-level for me :\
11:15:40 <oklon> the language isn't exactly designed for kernel development :P
11:15:46 <ais523> <fungus.pdf> It is hoped that this will give rise to further nightmares, possibly involving Cthulhu in a bikini teaching INTERCAL to first-year law students.
11:16:14 <oklon> although i guess if befunge has time travel, i can't beat it no matter how many ridiculous features i add.
11:16:18 <AnMaster> ais523, the ring stuff is in the implementation specific stuff iirc
11:16:31 <ais523> oklon: not very well, it's like continuations that affect I/O
11:17:17 <oklon> i'm just gonna have regular continuations.
11:17:54 <AnMaster> hm allocating an unique block from funge space of a given size
11:18:00 <AnMaster> that could be an useful fingerprint
11:18:26 <ais523> the worrying thing about Fungus is that I might implement it in hardware as a hack at some point, for fun
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11:18:32 <oklon> fizzie: thanks. really any big language spec would do, i might as well take guidance from that.
11:18:55 <ais523> I have access to all the stuff I need as an electronic engineering student
11:19:05 <AnMaster> ais523, read http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~ajo/funge/fungus.html too then, the spec had some inconsistencies iirc
11:19:09 <ais523> even the reprogrammable silicon chip things that would be needed to build it at the end
11:20:24 <AnMaster> <fizzie> So if you just want to look at the format, see http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2005/n1905.pdf or something. <-- C89?
11:20:43 <ais523> the C++ spec has a saner numbering scheme
11:21:07 <ais523> I still don't understand the wisdom of ISO and ANSI publishing standards for C which are identical except in the page numbers and section numbers
11:21:15 <ais523> making it very hard to reference an individual part of the standard
11:21:26 <AnMaster> ais523, how exactly do they differ?
11:21:28 <ais523> whereas C++ gives text labels to the sections as well as page numbers
11:21:38 <ais523> AnMaster: section 4 in one of them is section 7 in the other, IIRC
11:21:54 <ais523> I think they differ in what's a section and what's a subsection
11:22:35 <AnMaster> WG14/N1256 Committee Draft — Septermber 7, 2007 ISO/IEC 9899:TC3
11:23:22 <ais523> I think the regulars on c.l.c who cite chapter & verse a lot have a C standard section numbering conversion table somewhere
11:23:26 <ais523> although I never managed to prove that
11:23:26 <oklon> is ".delicious" a good file suffix? :D
11:23:55 <oklon> because it means delicious if i'm not mistaken.
11:24:09 <ais523> actually, normally it means delicatessen
11:24:11 <oklon> i may be mistaken, but no need to correct me, because that would only complicate things.
11:24:23 <ais523> whoops, sent that off slightly too quickly...
11:24:29 <oklon> well yeah sure, but i mean in the italolatispanish language
11:24:54 <oklon> but i don't actually *know* that :P
11:26:26 <ais523> ugh, I never considered the problems of endianess in multi-dimensional languages before
11:26:45 <oklon> hmm, yeah i guess i should use unicode
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11:28:15 <ais523> also, I like the idea of a register designed to be a source of zeros but is writable anyway so you can redefine 0
11:28:25 <ais523> very INTERCALlish /and/ Smalltalky
11:29:03 <oklon> mips has a writable zero register, but the value doesn't change
11:29:26 <oklon> i guess it's not exactly writable then.
11:29:37 <oklon> hmm, god i'm bad at sounding official.
11:30:09 <oklon> i should probably start writing the middle of the spec first, in a random fashion, and fix the chaos later.
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11:41:43 <oklon> memory allocation from the delicious fungespace is actually considerably easier than in the usual fungespace, considering it has infinite dimensions, and you can just allocate an unused dimension for that...
11:42:17 <oklon> well, you can't guarantee it will always be unused, but, well, it's bad practice to use dimensions without allocating them first anyway
11:43:37 <oklon> also the coordinate system is on reals, so you can just allocate (x to x+e, y to y+e) to be a square containing any amount of objects you wanna keep safe.
11:45:03 <ais523> actually, a fungeoid with real coordinates is one of the first things I've heard that gave me that eso feel
11:45:11 <ais523> of some new and exciting eso idea coming up
11:45:18 <ais523> with respect to that language
11:45:26 <ais523> rationals, or arbitrary reals?
11:45:39 <ais523> how do you specify irrational reals?
11:45:47 <ais523> or indeed, process the results?
11:45:55 <oklon> you can't do that in general, there is no declarativity.
11:46:14 <oklon> i may add "find largest number in set" if you want irrationals... :P
11:46:19 <ais523> I mean, how do you set the delta to (pi, e, 0, 0....)?
11:46:49 <oklon> pi and e may exist as constants
11:47:23 <oklon> but i'm not saying you can actually create arbitrary reals, it's just the number system must hold any number without ever losing precision.
11:47:43 <ais523> restricting it to rationals would at least make it implementable
11:47:51 <ais523> but that rather defeats the point, probably
11:48:14 <oklon> well you can only make the kind of reals the stdlib lets you.
11:48:37 <oklon> and that's sin/cos and friends, square root, and e
11:49:07 <oklon> just better not check equality with = if you don't want to loop infinitely.
11:49:46 <oklon> i mean, it's not actually hard to store these numbers and do calculations, the only hard thing is equality, and if that can't be determined, ip reflects.
11:51:48 <oklon> actually reflection is probably not allowed.
11:52:30 <oklon> well i don't want implementations to just store everything but rationals as black holes.
11:52:49 <oklon> a black hole is a number you can't do anything with anymore, because it's too complex to compare it with other things.
11:53:30 <oklon> you can still add stuff to it, and do other operations, but those are simply swallowed, because there is no need to get anything sensible out of it anymore.
11:54:14 <AnMaster> your fungoid would need symbolic numbers
11:54:35 <AnMaster> at least if e square root and so on should be exact
11:54:41 <ais523> oklon: couldn't you approximate it to n decimal places?
11:54:49 <oklon> anyway you can restrict the fungespace if you wish, because, well, there will be static typing anyway, so naturally there will be optimized 2^n type of numbers.
11:54:53 <ais523> that works even if you don't know the exact value
11:55:08 <oklon> ais523: yeah that's good
11:55:16 <AnMaster> oklon, I think reflection should be replaced with interrupts
11:55:22 <ais523> ofc, you have to allow that for arbitrarily large n
11:55:25 <oklon> and pure rationals MUST BE compared exactly, and rules like that
11:55:26 <ais523> or it misses the point
11:55:55 <AnMaster> oklon, what will be file format be?
11:56:08 <AnMaster> if you allow non-integer coordinates
11:56:33 <oklon> i was thinking unicode, 2d, and you can tell it where to start and which direction to put the plane in
11:57:10 <oklon> POSITION_VECTOR PLANE_DIRECTION_VECTOR\n<2d program written in unicode>
11:57:16 <ais523> I remember that although Shove's a 2D language, practical programs tended to be 1D
11:57:24 <ais523> and generate the 2Dness at runtime
11:57:34 <ais523> instead of writing a 2D program, you wrote a 1D program that generated it
11:57:46 <oklon> AnMaster: i don't know anything about unicode, so i do not know yet.
11:58:03 <ais523> oklon: UTF-8's easiest, lots of things use it nowadays
11:58:35 <oklon> yeah standard is good here.
11:59:04 <ais523> AnMaster: even suggesting an XML fungeoid is grounds to be shot, I suspect
11:59:29 * ais523 so hopes that optbot puts that line in the topic at some random point in the future
11:59:29 <optbot> ais523: we first need a notation
11:59:30 <AnMaster> oklon, anyway if input is 2D UTF-8, how would you put stuff at real coordinates?
11:59:43 <ais523> optbot: yes, that's what we're dicussing now
11:59:43 <optbot> ais523: http://www.noah.org/science/audio_paradox/endless.mp3
12:00:01 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and mathml to express coordinates :P
12:00:10 <oklon> AnMaster: hmm, you can probably just put the program at fixnum-represented coordinated
12:00:15 <ais523> ok, I'm starting to like this, insane as it is
12:00:16 <oklon> or maybe any rationals
12:00:52 <ais523> I was referring to yours, I said I liked oklon's already
12:00:55 <oklon> so something like 5 2 6 # 4 2/3 1/898
12:01:09 <ais523> well, yours is awfully bad but should be done anyway
12:01:12 <AnMaster> oklon, how would you do GC stuff?
12:01:31 <oklon> starts at [5, 2, 6, 0, 0...], and the scale would be [4, 2/3, 1/898, 1, 1, ...]
12:01:35 <AnMaster> and then how the heck to find out of something is referenced?
12:01:43 <AnMaster> ais523, I won't do that idea I had
12:02:05 <oklon> but, maybe 5 2 6 # 7 would be [5, 2, 6] and scale [7, 7, 7, 7, ...] :D
12:02:17 <oklon> are exceptions good? :P
12:02:28 <AnMaster> oklon, translation matrixes for funge-space
12:02:55 <oklon> basically, have one number in the scaler, and everything will be scaled by it, have multiple numbers, and they will be used as a scaling *vector*
12:03:19 <oklon> so 7 = 7, 7, 7..., and 7, 7 = 7, 7, 1, 1...
12:03:43 <AnMaster> I just got another horrible idea
12:03:50 <AnMaster> that can be done with existing trefunge
12:03:51 <oklon> you can't do stuff like 7, 1, 7, 7, 7..., but i think that's okay, because then you'd start wanting to do all kinds of cycles and shit...
12:04:16 <AnMaster> Make a program that runs and works, but also looks like that standard OpenGL 3D teapot
12:05:22 <AnMaster> oklon, still what do you think?
12:05:41 <AnMaster> and yeah I like your idea oklon
12:09:24 <oklon> yeah that's a nice idea
12:09:39 <oklon> if you start doing things with shape, i'd prefer something less discrete than befunge
12:09:51 <oklon> something like.... gradients
12:14:56 <oklon> Exact comparisons between reals need not have any guarantees of succeeding if the numbers are equal, but comparison must be complete if the numbers are different. <<< does this sound right?
12:16:48 <oklon> hmm, well clearly it can just try one more digit of precision at a time, until it finds proof that they are different.
12:18:17 <oklon> wonder if i should allow twisting the cube... :o
12:18:42 <oklon> well, no one is actually going to use these features, so i guess it doesn't matter :P
12:18:50 <oklon> (i mean, even if they used delicious funge itself)
12:20:25 <ais523> AnMaster: not timed out, I just had to leave in a hurry
12:22:02 <oklon> i think i'll just store real numbers in the fungespace, and add explicit serialization procedures for putting objects in cells
12:22:16 <oklon> so that you usually use the real as a pointer
12:23:05 <oklon> hmm, maybe a cell should hold real/pointer.
12:23:29 <oklon> you can just store non-integers in the cells
12:23:34 <oklon> without serializing
12:23:41 <ais523> oklon: just use an explicit serialisation from an infinite number of reals into one real
12:23:42 <oklon> (which i actually call atomizing btw)
12:23:46 <AnMaster> oklon, statically and strongly typed?
12:23:47 <ais523> such serialisations exist
12:23:59 <oklon> atomizing is a better term for it imo, because you're encoding it in a number.
12:24:16 <AnMaster> oklon, oh another thing: something like mprotect()
12:24:22 <oklon> AnMaster: yeah that's something i want to have, in some form.
12:24:29 <oklon> i don't know mprotect()
12:24:41 <AnMaster> oklon, can execute/can write/can read
12:25:09 <oklon> AnMaster: yeah type tagged values, objects are usually stored as small blocks of code where you have an ip that handles requests given to the object.
12:25:33 <oklon> this is how functions and objects are generally done
12:26:08 <oklon> static typing is basically only an issue when you're jitting the code.
12:26:15 <oklon> and i'm not sure how that's gonna work :D
12:26:25 <oklon> but i must have it!
12:26:53 <oklon> ais523: well i just need to encode a *finite* amount of reals into a real.
12:27:12 <ais523> oklon: isn't it good to be able to encode an infinite-dimensional location in space into one number?
12:27:26 <ais523> anyway, alternating the digits before and after the decimal point is one way to encode two reals into one
12:27:39 <oklon> well i was thinking you'd never actually use infinite dimensions, but just a finite amount at a time.
12:27:46 <oklon> and the rest would be zeroes
12:28:15 <ais523> just do mingling, mingling on reals is insane, impressive, and maps R^2 to R
12:28:34 <ais523> strangely, that's the solution a mathematician who'd never heard of INTERCAL suggested too when the discussion came up a few years ago
12:29:12 <oklon> i don't see the encoding as an issue really, especially as i can just have the imaginary mathematical operation merge(objecta, objectb), which *returns a real number that, when unmerged with 1, returns objecta, and when unmerged with 2, returns objectb*.
12:29:23 <oklon> i mean, the reals aren't exactly infinite sequences
12:29:41 <oklon> in the general case they are mathematical expressions that evaluate to a number if needed.
12:29:54 <ais523> hmm... mingling two rationals always gives a rational answer
12:29:59 <ais523> I wonder how easy that would be to implement?
12:30:40 <oklon> let's see the binary case
12:30:44 <oklon> we have two numbers, a and b
12:30:48 <oklon> and we wanna mingle them
12:31:11 <oklon> what operation is "add zeros to a as every second digit" exactly
12:31:14 <oklon> what does it do :|
12:31:17 <oklon> that's the gist really
12:32:25 <oklon> wtf. the calculator in vista can't handle binary floating point xD
12:32:34 <oklon> oh my god this world sucks
12:35:29 <oklon> asd, god i'm getting
12:35:39 <oklon> tired at making a base converter every day.
12:35:46 <oklon> should reeeeally consider storing one somewhere
12:36:10 <oklon> but really it's quite a wtf languages rarely have that
12:36:33 <oklon> and, occasionally, i want to kill all humans because of it.
12:37:11 <oklon> lol, my python won't open.
12:37:52 <ehird> oklon: i like yer new name
12:40:18 <oklon> ehird: thanks. now can you point me to a calculator that is not retarded?
12:40:58 <ehird> 03:23:26 <oklon> is ".delicious" a good file suffix? :D
12:40:58 <oklon> what module do i import for binary floating point?
12:41:11 <oklon> yeah i was actually thinking that
12:41:50 <ehird> , a Delicious Funge program
12:41:57 <ehird> Hello world, a Delicious Funge program
12:42:38 <AnMaster> no spaces in the extension please
12:42:57 <ais523> actually, CLC-INTERCAL crashed Debian mandb
12:43:03 <ais523> by having spaces in the executable's filename
12:43:30 <AnMaster> but, spaces is still irritating on command line
12:47:52 <oklon> ehird: lol that's awesome xD
12:49:06 <ehird> Deewiant: i would do anything just to annoy anmaster
12:49:24 <ais523> strangely the comma didn't seem to cause problems
12:49:39 <AnMaster> ais523, well it wouldn't, doesn't have any special meaning
12:49:56 <ais523> even DOS handled it fine
12:50:18 <AnMaster> ais523, in {foo,bar} you would need to escape it for example though
12:50:46 <AnMaster> (that expands to foo bar, not very useful until you combine it: my_{foo,bar} -> my_foo my_bar
12:51:58 <AnMaster> (assuming you can duplicate items, so not really no)
12:54:03 <oklon> ais523: isn't 0.abcd...abcd...(abcd...), where abcd... is the repeating n-digit sequence the number abcd.../z{n}, where z is the largest digit and {n} means n z's?
12:54:14 <oklon> so 0.11011101(1101) would be 1101/1111
12:54:28 <oklon> okay. well i think it's pretty simple to get from that
12:55:23 <oklon> 1101/1111 `mingle` 110000101/111111111 = 01010001/11111111 + 101000000000100010/111111111111111111
12:55:47 <oklon> basically you just add the zeros to the cycled thingie
12:55:52 <oklon> but in one you add them on the left
12:55:56 <oklon> and in the other, on the right
12:55:57 <ais523> what about terminating "decimals"?
12:56:11 <oklon> err terminating decimals?
12:56:24 <ais523> like 0.71828182818281828
12:56:28 <ais523> those are rational too
12:56:29 <oklon> well that's 0.51(0)
12:56:43 <ais523> it probably isn't too much of a change to handle those too
12:56:45 <oklon> well it's trivial to do the finite part
12:57:43 <oklon> i'm not sure how those break down into a more mathy expression
12:58:20 <oklon> you could just have a separate integer part, and multiply the finite decimals there
12:58:35 <oklon> well, you'd have to store the offsets then
13:02:07 <oklon> about that game without graphics, realized it might feel like kind of a waste for the programmer, as it will need a raytracer of some sort anyway, because the sounds must be handled exactly
13:02:29 <ais523> have graphics too, just don't show them by default
13:02:37 <oklon> well yeah i was thinking about that
13:02:47 <oklon> but that's... well you know, it's a bit lame
13:03:09 <oklon> "it was such hard work making this game i included the graphics so you can see how well the raytracer works"
13:03:22 <oklon> "even though you're not supposed to actually use them"
13:03:31 <oklon> well, i guess they would be helpful when learning the game
13:04:15 <oklon> really crude graphics where you basically just see the different sounds as different colors.
13:05:15 <oklon> the problem is i'm not exactly sure what the goal would be, and what the game would be about. i just have ideas about more specific stuff.
13:05:28 <oklon> like, targeting something could be about tuning the weapon.
13:05:51 <oklon> so that the two notes telling you whether your aim is right have to be at an interval of exactly one octave
13:07:07 <oklon> different objects would have different sounds, you would hear their distance from the loudness, naturally, some kinda muffing filter for detecting whether the object is above you or behind you or in front of you
13:07:46 <oklon> so that you'd learn to associate the effects with height
13:08:00 <oklon> pan and volume would just work as in the real world ofc
13:08:49 <oklon> and maybe something like a reeeeeally exaggerated doppler effect for determining what way the objects are heading
13:10:44 <oklon> weird perception and weird controls are really what i consider the perfect basis for a game, the problem is i just have weird perception here, and by itself it doesn't really make a good game
13:11:45 <oklon> probably would be hard enough just to find some object in the level, and avoid bad guys.
13:17:02 <AnMaster> oklon, how would ppl with simple stereo speakers play it?
13:17:13 <AnMaster> It sounds like you would need surround
13:22:20 <oklon> with surround you wouldn't need anything special for determining the exact relative position of an object
13:23:01 <oklon> but i want to keep that in effects, if the brain adapts to it, i don't know much about brains, but i think it might work.
13:24:12 <oklon> anyway i doubt anyone would play it anyway. that's not really one of my design goals
13:24:29 <oklon> or have you tried any of my games?
13:25:10 <ehird> heh, oklon is talking to a balack hole
13:25:31 <oklon> ehird: actually i was monologuing most of that time
13:25:40 <ehird> recently it was AnMaster i assume
13:25:48 <oklon> yes, he said a few sentences in the middle
13:27:55 <oklon> also i'm planning this control system for a racing game using two joysticks; the racer would not limit your speed at all.
13:28:11 <oklon> would be just about your own reaction time
13:28:57 <oklon> of course the acceleration would be finite, but you would get so much acceleration you would never be able to use it unless in space.
13:30:47 <oklon> also i was thinking you could crash the vehicle by just accelerating fast enough.
13:30:54 <oklon> might be pretty fun.
13:44:41 <AnMaster> oklon, you would die if you accelerate with more than 10 G or so, even with a G pressure suite, and you would become unconscious long before that.
13:45:11 <ais523> maybe it's remote-control
13:46:02 <oklon> yes remote control
13:46:12 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | yes.
13:46:16 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | nope.
13:46:24 <oklon> also i don't exactly care about realism.
13:46:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | binary transfer is faster and safer than analog.
13:46:51 <ais523> maybe optbot commands should all be punctuation marks
13:46:52 <optbot> ais523: wrapping unsigned numbers happen automatically
13:46:56 <ais523> with "optbot" as the sigil
13:46:56 <optbot> ais523: double(each integer)
13:47:06 <ais523> optbot? optbot! optbot...
13:47:31 <ais523> ok, the first and third of those were AnMaster, I reckon
13:47:54 <ais523> the first because that's a grammar mistake AnMaster used to make, and because it's the kind of thing he says
13:47:59 <AnMaster> well "yes" and "nope" could both be mine
13:48:06 <ais523> and the last because AnMaster's the only person in here whose client uses a comma to specify nicks
13:48:22 <ais523> most people use colons, and optbot strips those nick prefixes out
13:48:29 <AnMaster> ais523, err xchat default is ,
13:48:38 <ais523> lots of things have default ,
13:48:40 <ais523> but most people change it
13:48:43 <AnMaster> and I liked it and made my other clients have it too
13:48:46 <oklon> "wrapping unsigned numbers happen automatically" is not an error.
13:48:51 <oklon> it's just a weird sentence.
13:48:54 <ais523> shouldn't it be "happens"?
13:49:17 <ais523> wrapping = adjective in your interpretation, and the sentence means something entirely different
13:50:08 <ais523> "forest planting genetically modified squirrels" is a good example of that sort of thing
13:50:35 <AnMaster> ais523, sounds like a headline and a garden path sentence?
13:50:46 <ais523> it wasn't intended to be silly, I don't think
13:50:53 <ais523> just the obvious interpretation isn't the one they meant
13:51:04 <ais523> read it as (forest planting) (genetically modified) squirrels
13:51:08 <ais523> then it makes a lot more sense
13:51:15 <AnMaster> a forest that is planting genetically...
13:51:25 <AnMaster> ais523, no that doesn't make sense either
13:51:34 <ais523> for some reason, though, people tend to read it as forest (planting ((genetically modified) squirrels))
13:51:37 <AnMaster> you mean squirrels trained to plant forests?!
13:51:46 <ais523> it means that planting in a forest
13:51:52 <ais523> caused squirrels to have their genes modified
13:52:22 <AnMaster> but, how? I mean apart from normal mutations
13:52:26 <ais523> but I prefer the interpretation in which forests were busy planting GM squirrels
13:52:33 <ais523> the headline's a load of bunk anyway
13:52:50 <AnMaster> ais523, or GM squirrels planting forests
13:53:02 <ais523> wait, how do you get that one
13:53:11 <ais523> that would be forest planting by genetically modified squirrels, surely?
13:53:12 <oklon> i didn't see the third one immediately :\
13:53:18 <ais523> I can't think of a way to do it without extra words
13:53:21 <AnMaster> ais523, forest-planting squirrels
13:53:23 <AnMaster> ais523, forest-planting GM squirrels
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13:53:30 <AnMaster> ais523, forest-planting genetically modified squirrels
13:53:33 <ais523> all one noun-phrase, rather than a sentence
13:53:34 <AnMaster> ais523, forest planting genetically modified squirrels
13:54:15 <AnMaster> ais523, that was the second variant I saw
13:54:22 <oklon> if there's a fourth one i'm not seeing, i'm gonna hit myself.
13:54:27 <AnMaster> the first was the forest one doing it
13:54:37 <AnMaster> and I can't see a 4th variant either
13:54:48 <ais523> so if there is one we all missed it
13:55:14 <AnMaster> Forest, Ltd. planting GM squirrels
13:55:16 <oklon> well, (forest planting genetically) modified squirrels
13:55:25 <AnMaster> if Forest is a company that is
13:55:26 <oklon> AnMaster: names aren't allowed.
13:55:30 <oklon> but mine is a fourth.
13:55:58 <oklon> the act of planting forests genetically has modified squirrels
13:56:30 <oklon> yeah and how do forests plant stuff
13:56:37 <oklon> that's really pointless to ask.
13:56:45 <oklon> this is about syntax
13:57:25 <ais523> oklon: ah, yes, I missed that one
13:57:28 <AnMaster> oklon, oh and forests, never read Tolkin?
13:57:39 <AnMaster> The ents or whatever they were called would plant of course ;P
13:57:44 <ais523> although it would be written better as forest planting, genetically, modified squirrels
13:57:49 <oklon> planting forests genetically would probably be something like taking tree genes and putting them in the squirrels, kinda genetically implanting them in them?
13:57:55 <oklon> the whole sentence makes sense that way,.
13:58:00 <ais523> even the sentence with commas is ambiguous though
13:58:16 <oklon> it's trivial to invent a meaning to anything.
13:59:35 <oklon> err and by that i mean, all grammatically correct sentences are easy to find a model in which they are true for
13:59:40 <oklon> and that was a complicated sentence
13:59:56 <oklon> and it seems it's read o'clock.
14:00:40 -!- oklon has changed nick to oklopol.
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14:43:51 <GregorR> You plant tree genes in a bunch of field mice, then one day they all freak the HELL out until *BANG* they pop and giant effing redwoods grow up out of them.
14:44:29 <ais523> but field mice != squirrels
14:44:46 <GregorR> Yeah, but I've never heard of field squirrels :P
14:45:09 <ais523> I've seen flourescent light squirrels
14:45:18 <ais523> they got into the ceiling of the library at my old school
14:45:27 <ais523> they used to make lots of noise running around inside the ceiling
14:45:39 <GregorR> I've EATEN flourescent light squirrels.
14:45:44 <ais523> and would sunbathe under the lights from time to time, projecting a squirrel-shaped shadow onto the floor
14:45:45 <GregorR> Boy were those scientists PISSSSSED
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15:33:14 <oerjan> <ais523> also, I like the name oklon
15:33:31 <oerjan> that's not cute. it smells of evil overlord.
15:33:43 <ais523> doesn't mean I can't like it
15:33:49 <oerjan> but then, maybe i've read too much Mandrake
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15:34:51 <oklopol> yeah i'd make a great overlord
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15:35:20 <ehird> is today your coding day, no>?
15:35:23 <ehird> CODE A MARKOV CHAIN BOT
15:38:00 <oklopol> turned out this is mostly a reading day :<
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15:40:30 <oerjan> <oklopol> you're all bots.
15:40:42 <oerjan> I may be simulated by one, though
15:42:31 <oerjan> also, i don't think i should read more of Eliezer Yudkowski's writings
15:45:09 <oerjan> because it makes you paranoid, that's why
15:47:13 <oerjan> there is also the tendency to stay awake long past bedtime, but that's not unique to him :/
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16:07:24 <ehird> <AnMaster> why plop? why not hi?
16:07:32 <ehird> (just in case he didn't already)
16:09:52 <oklopol> well, i lied a bit, but apart from that, he surely did.
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17:07:21 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you mean can there be implicit conversions?.
17:08:47 <oerjan> you need to be very explicit then
17:09:17 <oerjan> pastafarianism otoh...
17:10:57 <ehird> ␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠
17:11:33 <oerjan> is that an implicit SP (ISP) or an explicit one (ESP)?
17:26:10 <ais523> ehird: why did you paste a character which is an abbreviation for SP?
17:26:26 <ehird> it's an unassigned character thing
17:27:19 <oerjan> darn irssi automatic transcription of unicode
17:31:55 <ais523> and yes, I was surprised to see yet another nomicer turn up in #esoteric
17:32:00 <ais523> there seems to be a lot of overlap...
17:32:27 * oerjan is the Ghost of Nomics Past
17:34:21 <ais523> anyway, what brings you here?
17:37:43 <ais523> actually, I must remember to bring thutubot back here
17:37:51 <ais523> after comex killed it with a forkbomb a while back
17:38:08 <jayCampbell> like, that's me: http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=139703
17:38:44 <jayCampbell> i'm thinking about a smalltalk implementation of Taxi
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17:39:38 <ais523> +ul (|)(~(-)~*:S~:^):^
17:39:39 <thutubot> -|--|---|----|-----|------|-------|--------|---------|----------|-----------|------------|-------------|--------------|---------------| ...too much output!
17:40:32 <jayCampbell> and i can't seem to let go of the idea of a natural language for nomic
17:40:48 <ehird> hey jayCampbell !!
17:40:58 <ais523> as in, a programming language suited to nomic, or as in Lojban?
17:41:34 <ehird> jayCampbell: feather!
17:41:35 <ais523> ah, a natural-looking programming language
17:42:00 <jayCampbell> it's discouraging when you eventually discover it's not the language that's the hold-up
17:42:02 <ais523> ehird: please don't randomly throw out Feather references to people who haven't seen it before, it took several weeks to explain the first time
17:42:09 <jayCampbell> even the best nomic'ers are completely logical
17:42:19 <ehird> ais523: just retroactively make everyone born with knowledge of it
17:42:20 <ais523> and I'm not particularly in the mood for trying again atm
17:44:43 <ais523> jayCampbell: a programming language which doesn't exist yet, and takes far too long to explain
17:44:48 <oerjan> actually, sounds like http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ORK
17:44:59 <ais523> however I think the theory is sound, just it's a pain to work out the details
17:46:54 <jayCampbell> what parser toolkit are you looking at using?
17:47:18 <ais523> the problem is it's completely self-referential
17:47:29 <ais523> so the parser, and indeed the entire interp, needs to be written from scratch in Feather
17:47:46 <ais523> also an identical version needs to be written in a different lang, or it'll be impossible to get the thing to run in the first place
17:50:41 <ais523> yes, that's not the main problem
17:50:51 <ais523> the main problem is keeping track of what's what when you change things retroactively
17:51:09 <ais523> which is about the only meaningful operation in Feather, and also the one that causes all the headaches
17:51:46 <ais523> a Feather codenomic would be entirely platonic, and you could retroactively change what the rules were in the past and have everything reinterpreted under those rules
17:52:46 <ais523> the main problem is that this is how Feather handles /everything/
17:52:49 <ais523> you don't assign to variables
17:52:54 <ais523> you change the value they had when they were created
17:53:06 <ehird> jayCampbell: not really
17:53:26 <ais523> Feather defies comparison to anything, really
17:53:41 <ais523> its syntax is designed to look very like Smalltalk, but behave much the same way for entirely different reasons
17:53:50 <ais523> except I keep changing my mind about how to do that
17:54:13 <jayCampbell> btw i figured out how to infinitely scale squeak on amazon ec2 cloud woot
17:55:08 <jayCampbell> the "problem" being creating a code-based nomic, not feather's implementation
17:55:26 <jayCampbell> players could vote on inclusions to an ORK story, f'rinstance
17:55:50 <ais523> well, you're aware of PerlNomic presumably
17:56:20 <jayCampbell> self-described isn't all it's cracked up to be :P
17:56:38 <ais523> it's perfectly self-describing, yet basically impossible to use
17:56:47 <ais523> if I've associated the right name with the right lang, I don't discuss that one a lot
17:56:52 <ais523> hmm... maybe it was called Sorted!
17:57:08 * ais523 creates some links to check: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hunter http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sorted
17:58:02 <ais523> ah, Sorted! has an exclamation mark on the wiki too
17:58:21 <ais523> http://p-nand-q.com/humor/programming_languages/sorted.html
17:59:02 <ais523> psygnisfive: the statements can be arbitrary length, so yes
17:59:11 <ais523> also, they're always a /particular/ 14 statements
17:59:14 <ais523> just with different args
17:59:33 <psygnisfive> not 14 statements in total, including all recursive application of rules
18:00:00 <ais523> Sorted! is a bit like BASIC with line numbers, but you sort by command type not by line number when writing the program
18:00:16 <ais523> so all the PRINTs are at the top, then all the GOTOs, then all the assignments, then all the additions, and so on
18:00:42 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
18:01:37 <psygnisfive> but only because keeping track of things would be hard
18:01:42 <psygnisfive> not because the model of computation is hard
18:03:00 <ais523> J: what sort of langs have you seen before?
18:03:33 <jayCampbell> i've avoided lisp and its variants, and anything microsoft
18:03:50 <ais523> what about some of mine: Underload, Thutu, BackFlip?
18:03:57 <psygnisfive> and i still dont understand forths branches
18:03:59 <jayCampbell> smalltalk is my current favorite but is losing out to ruby for usability
18:04:30 <ais523> I invented Feather originally because Smalltalk wasn't Smalltalky enough IMO, but it ended up as something moderately different
18:05:20 <ais523> it's not as if there's a spec or anything to show
18:05:27 <ais523> just a lot of confused notes which contradict each other
18:05:30 <ais523> and me having the latest ideas
18:05:41 <ais523> also the syntax changes every 5 minutes while I'm thinking about it
18:06:17 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I think it might be interesting to write a license which was in fact an esoprogram.
18:06:37 <ais523> I also maintain C-INTERCAL
18:06:41 <ais523> although I didn't invent INTERCAL, obviously
18:07:54 <jayCampbell> it was cool to see all the Piet canvasses folks have come up with
18:07:58 <ehird> ais523: while you're plugging yourself, might as well mention the wolfram prize too. :-P
18:08:11 <ais523> why? people mention it far too often, it wouldn't do with me joining in too
18:08:51 <ehird> ais523: perhaps you could mention how your beard is turing complete? (Note: Injoke not expected to be gotten by anyone in here as the other party to it is not in here.)
18:09:20 <ais523> nope, the proof had a finite number of steps
18:09:26 <ais523> the program it generated was infinitely long
18:09:35 <ehird> ais523: btw, that vaughan pratt person
18:09:36 <ais523> but that's not a problem as Turing machines run out of tape if you give them a finitely long tape
18:09:39 <ehird> was he right about your proof? :-P
18:09:52 <ais523> ehird: his original argument was based on a misconception, he misread my proof
18:09:58 <ais523> other points came up later
18:10:17 <ais523> they weren't based on maths, we basically got into an argument about what particular words meant
18:10:26 <psygnisfive> ais, would the TM finish in finite time???
18:10:32 <ehird> psygnisfive: it can't halt
18:10:34 <ais523> if it ran a non-terminating program, yes
18:10:43 <ais523> it can do something halt-like
18:10:55 <ais523> a TC proof for a very simple lang
18:11:11 <psygnisfive> and why then did you require an infinitely long program?
18:11:40 <ais523> do you know what a Turing machine is?
18:11:46 <ais523> you have to put something on the tape to start with
18:11:55 <ais523> and you have to specify every cell on the tape
18:12:09 <ais523> one argument that developed was about what exactly you were allowed to fill the tape with
18:12:12 <psygnisfive> right, but i dont see how that relates to proving something about the language
18:12:52 <ais523> the argument is whether my proof was a proof or not
18:13:05 <ais523> as in, whether I'd proved the right thing
18:13:15 <ais523> in the end they decided that the thing I was trying to prove was ambiguous in the first place
18:13:28 <psygnisfive> ok what im saying tho is i dont see how the requirement of an infinitely large program could be relevant to a proof
18:13:42 <ais523> as it had shades of grey rather than being black and white
18:13:42 <ais523> so it became an argument about semantics not maths, as to where to draw the boundary
18:14:08 <psygnisfive> we should come up with our own competition
18:14:28 <ais523> [Mon Nov 3 2008] [18:12:51] <ais523> the argument is whether my proof was a proof or not
18:14:29 <ais523> [Mon Nov 3 2008] [18:13:05] <ais523> as in, whether I'd proved the right thing
18:14:30 <ais523> [Mon Nov 3 2008] [18:13:14] <ais523> in the end they decided that the thing I was trying to prove was ambiguous in the first place
18:14:33 <ais523> [Mon Nov 3 2008] [18:13:28] <ais523> as it had shades of grey rather than being black and white
18:14:37 <ais523> [Mon Nov 3 2008] [18:13:40] <ais523> so it became an argument about semantics not maths, as to where to draw the boundary
18:15:00 <ais523> my connection dropped and I'm not sure how much I managed to send first
18:15:34 <ais523> between me and ehird, quoting yourself basically means "my connection dropped"
18:16:13 <psygnisfive> i say the competition should be a "figure out how the esolang works" competition
18:16:27 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:16:34 <ais523> you mean, post a source written in an esolang, without a reference interp or a spec
18:16:42 <ais523> and other people have to guess what the spec is?
18:18:44 <ehird> that's just optbot
18:18:44 <optbot> ehird: if you have a global int foo
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18:19:49 <ais523> Please do not copy this code without permission, or [if permitted by Mr. Smith, or a guardian he designates] copy it without attribution
18:22:20 <ais523> so it takes me 0 seconds to ping myself, but 2 seconds to receive the reply?
18:22:46 <ais523> +ul (o )(~:S(ok)~*~:^):^
18:22:47 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
18:23:03 <ais523> ^choo okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:23:03 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko koko ...
18:23:07 <ais523> ^choo okokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:23:07 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko kokokokok ...
18:23:11 <ais523> ^choo okokokokokokokokokoko
18:23:11 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokoko okokokokokokoko kokokokokokoko okokokokokoko kokokokokoko okokokokoko kokokokoko okokokoko ...
18:23:15 <fungot> okokokokokokoko kokokokokokoko okokokokokoko kokokokokoko okokokokoko kokokokoko okokokoko kokokoko okokoko kokoko okoko koko oko ko o
18:23:24 <ais523> it should do it two chars at a time really
18:23:26 <fungot> >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
18:23:35 <ehird> <ais523> Please do not copy this code without permission, or [if permitted by Mr. Smith, or a guardian he designates] copy it without attribution
18:23:43 <ais523> ehird: it's a license which is in fact an esoprogram
18:24:20 <ais523> and I don't see why it wouldn't be legally binding
18:24:41 <ais523> on the other hand, hiding substantial BF programs in messages is much harder than with cat
18:25:58 <ais523> ^def choko bf >,[>,]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[-]>[[.>]<[<]>>[-]>]
18:26:07 <ais523> ^choko okokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:26:07 <fungot> kokokokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokoko kokokokokokoko kokokokokoko kokokokoko kokokoko kokoko koko ko
18:26:23 <ais523> ^def choko bf >,[>,]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[[.>]<[<]>>[-]>]
18:26:26 <ais523> ^choko okokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:26:26 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokoko okokokoko okokoko okoko oko o
18:26:36 <ais523> +ul (o )(~:S(ok)~*~:^):^
18:26:36 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
18:26:43 <ais523> ^choko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:26:44 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokoko ...
18:26:53 <ais523> ^choko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:26:53 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokoko ...
18:27:13 <ais523> oklopol is probably enjoying it though
18:27:50 <ais523> +ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:*)*( )S~:^):^a
18:27:51 <ehird> psygnisfive: its oko
18:27:53 <ehird> you never try and stop oko
18:27:54 <ais523> ^ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:*)*( )S~:^):^a
18:27:55 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 ...too much stack!
18:28:24 <oklopol> my computer is so laggy i can't enjoy anything right now
18:28:28 <oklopol> should never leave it alone
18:28:33 <thutubot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 ...too much memory used!
18:28:33 <ais523> that seems to have got thutubot thinking...
18:28:51 <ais523> also, interesting that they both reached 512
18:29:09 <ais523> hmm... if I reduce the max number of digits to 5, will they get further? probably not tbh
18:29:16 <ais523> ^ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:*)*( )S~:^):^a
18:29:17 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 ...too much stack!
18:29:28 <ais523> ^ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:*)*( )S~:^):^a
18:29:29 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 ...too much stack!
18:29:58 <ais523> ^ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:*)*( )S~:^):^a
18:29:59 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 ...too much stack!
18:30:05 <ais523> ^ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:*)*( )S~:^):^a
18:30:06 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 ...too much stack!
18:30:11 <ais523> ^ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:*)*( )S~:^):^a
18:31:49 <ais523> anyway, time to stop spamming
18:33:20 <ais523> also, does it have to be a new esolang?
18:33:25 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:33:27 <ais523> or can one that everyone's forgotten about count?
18:33:32 -!- puzzlet has joined.
18:33:35 <psygnisfive> no, it just has to be something you cant go and find easily
18:33:49 <ais523> what if the interp only runs in DOS?
18:33:52 <psygnisfive> i mean, we dont want to be able to just go find some reference
18:34:02 <ais523> I was thinking about MiniMAX
18:34:08 <ais523> which was my attempt to golf an interpreter
18:34:25 <psygnisfive> no! interps must be compiled, or must run in browser
18:34:29 <ais523> you have to use DOS to get really really short interps
18:34:40 <ehird> psygnisfive: minimax interp IS compiled
18:34:47 <ehird> into a few bytes of dos
18:34:48 <ais523> ehird: actually I wrote the asm by hand
18:34:57 <psygnisfive> i just dont have dos so i couldnt participate in that shit
18:35:01 <ais523> presumably psygnisfive means from a portable lang
18:35:16 <ais523> it's just that I've never dared run a MiniMAX program
18:35:28 <psygnisfive> but the ideal scenario i think would be a server-side script
18:35:31 <ais523> I wrote lots of interps, but I've never run any of them
18:35:37 <ais523> and yes, a CGI sounds good
18:35:48 <ais523> even better: no example programs, interps must produce sensible error messages?
18:36:28 <ais523> and have prizes for the first hello world, the first 99bob, the first cat, the first Lost Kingdoms, etc
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18:37:06 <ais523> what, writing parsers?
18:37:11 <ais523> that's easy once you've got the hang of it
18:37:17 <psygnisfive> writing parsers for especially difficult languages
18:37:34 <psygnisfive> and conversely, designing languages that are especially hard to parse
18:37:36 <ais523> the parser was the only part of that I wrote, and it was buggy
18:37:45 <ais523> unlike Feather, Cyclexa does have a spec
18:37:52 <ais523> but like Feather, it doesn't have an implementation
18:37:56 <ais523> also the spec isn't finished yet
18:38:04 <ais523> it's a TC regex-like lang
18:38:19 <ais523> with an excessively gammaplexy (read: bloated) set of features
18:38:24 <ais523> and designed to be very golfable
18:39:31 <ais523> hey, there's actually an interesting problem on Anagolf atm, with lots of time left
18:39:39 <ais523> convert an Unlambda number to decimal
18:42:18 <ais523> also, it seems like a great program for some esoteric entries
18:42:22 <ais523> one in Unlambda itself would be nice
18:42:27 <ais523> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Church+Numerals+in+ski
18:42:33 <ehird> oh i thought you said underload
18:42:44 <ais523> Underload's easier, I think
18:42:47 <ais523> due to being easier to parse
18:42:57 <ais523> apart from that the rules for numerals aren't all that different
18:45:15 <oklopol> there's an internet, the interpreter could be on the other side of it.
18:45:35 <oklopol> inventing a language, writing a program in it, making others guess how it works?
18:45:39 <oklopol> i've suggested that a few times
18:45:46 <oklopol> and, naturally, think it's an awesome idea
18:45:59 <oklopol> but yeah letting others use an interpreter to figure out the language sounds good.
18:46:16 <oklopol> psygnisfive: "let's", you mean make a language together, make others figure it out?
18:46:52 <oklopol> need to read the last lines of the logs.
18:48:05 <oklopol> for ski numbers you need an ski interpreter, the rest takes really no code.
18:48:14 <oklopol> ski might, depending on language
18:48:25 <oklopol> for instance my thue ski is like 200 lines
18:48:31 <oklopol> (or 10, i haven't counted)
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18:52:37 <oklopol> psygnisfive: well i'm thinking more like, puzzles.
18:53:05 <oklopol> so that i could just make a puzzle, and paste it here... :P
18:54:08 <oklopol> basically i was thinking, a few example programs, a web-interface for running progs, and you have a certain thing you need to code in the lang, and if you manage to do that, you liek win
18:55:19 <psygnisfive> a combination of figure out how the language works AND put that knowledge to use
18:56:04 <psygnisfive> + designing impossible to parse/interpret languages
18:57:30 <ais523> Perl is impossible to parse
18:57:46 <ais523> the problem of determining whether a Perl program contains a syntax error is TC
18:57:53 <ehird> psygnisfive: hes not joking
18:58:12 <ehird> http://mazonka.com/mp3/index.html <- The awful, awful music by the inventor of Subleq and the writer of the fastest bf interp
18:58:55 <jayCampbell> a programming challenge around Liquid or its kin would be fun
18:59:07 <jayCampbell> what's the basis for the contest you're talking about?
19:01:12 <ais523> contests here tend to be ad hoc
19:01:29 <oklopol> okay i think the language is ready
19:01:32 <ais523> and never actually judged, the 2000 Essies went down in history because they actually finished, with a defined winner
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19:02:10 <oklopol> i'm actually surprised how fun things i can concoct when not aiming for absolute perfection
19:02:15 <oklopol> well also i'm not aiming for tcness here, so
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19:03:56 <ais523> ehird: never call it that, and it collapsed because nobody made the ideas into an esolang
19:04:04 <ehird> ais523: why never call it that
19:04:14 <ais523> it says so, you always have to write the name out in full
19:04:30 <ais523> just like brainfuck isn't a proper noun
19:04:39 <ais523> thus is spelt lowercase-b except at the start of a sentence
19:09:11 <ais523> also, I have a working solution in Perl to that anagolf problem but it times out
19:09:19 <ais523> probably I'll have to compile rather than interpret
19:09:45 <ais523> $r=qr/[^`]|`(??{$r})(??{$r})/;while($_="``".<>){s/
19:09:46 <ais523> /xy/;s/`i($r)/$1/&&redo;s/``k($r)$r/$1/&&redo;s/```s($r)($r)($r)/``$1$3`$2$3/&&redo;s/`x($r)/$1/&&++$l&&redo;print"$l
19:10:04 <ais523> as always in golf programs, literal newlines are common to save on characters
19:10:29 <ais523> it's a pretty simple naive SKI interp
19:12:53 <Deewiant> ais523: do literal newlines depend on the newline format or is it always 0x10
19:13:25 <ais523> Deewiant: Anagolf maps all newlines in the program to 0x0a before feeding them to the interp
19:13:37 <ais523> but counts them as two bytes unless you upload, as it receives them as \n\r
19:13:43 <ais523> so uploading is the way to get really high scores
19:14:09 <Deewiant> hmm, if you can rename 'redo' shortly that'd save a few bytes
19:17:30 <ais523> it's too slow to be entered anyway
19:17:54 <ais523> and yes, you can group the redos together using s/a/b/||s/c/d/||s/e/f/ and redo
19:18:03 <ais523> I've done that before when using a similar structure
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19:24:51 <oklopol> i'm not going to make a php version yet
19:24:59 <oklopol> but you can try figuring this out from the example program
19:25:17 <psygnisfive> hold on oklopol, we need to organize this proper like
19:25:17 <oklopol> may be trivial, may be insanely hard, i haven't exactly heard anyone try this.
19:25:42 <psygnisfive> we need to put up a little website with links to the interpreters
19:26:06 <oklopol> butbut, can i just paste it ;)
19:26:43 <oklopol> well, if no one else has anything to say, then i guess there's no need to.
19:27:04 <psygnisfive> let me put together a page to act as an index
19:29:13 <oklopol> it's basically a small program + output.
19:29:25 <oklopol> but, actually, because i already made the interp, i could just as well make a more complex one
19:29:52 <oklopol> hmm. i haven't actually thought about that, probably just something like hello world, it's a real tarpit, and prolly not tc
19:30:09 <psygnisfive> this is why we need to think about these things first!
19:30:37 <psygnisfive> 1: Given a blackbox interpreter and a sample program, write a program that does such and such
19:30:51 <oklopol> thinking is for noobs, i want ais523 to start reverse-engineering it.
19:30:54 <psygnisfive> 2: Given a language spec, write a parser (interpreter gets extra points)
19:31:09 <psygnisfive> 3: Design a language that's especially hard to parse
19:31:09 <oklopol> for some reason i think no one else will try, unless it's trivial.
19:31:44 <oklopol> tbh i prefer having to code in the language.
19:32:03 <oklopol> but well, you're a linguist, so :P
19:32:04 <ais523> well, see if you can write a decent program before I can reverse-engineer the one you have already
19:32:21 <oklopol> psygnisfive: so you like syntax!
19:32:31 <oklopol> i'll try to write a hello world
19:32:34 <ehird> syntax is boooring
19:32:56 <oklopol> but, anyway, i'm pretty sure i can create more of these languages, no matter if one gets spoiler.
19:33:58 <ais523> but Quine's a good one for the list
19:34:11 <ais523> programs to write to prove you understand the language
19:34:28 <oklopol> i didn't think i've talked about my ideas
19:34:37 <oklopol> but there are many standard ones people tend to make
19:34:53 <ais523> maybe interps for some simple esolangs?
19:34:57 <ais523> BF interp? dupdog interp?
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19:35:11 <oklopol> in my opinion, it should be simple
19:35:18 <oklopol> just enough to prove you know how it works.
19:35:42 <ais523> that would involve control flow, I/O, and data processing, I think
19:35:47 <ais523> those are what BF-complete langs need
19:35:56 <ais523> ofc in an esolang, data processing can mean more or less anything
19:36:01 <ais523> and I/O can be weird too
19:36:11 <ais523> and control flow can be even weirder than both
19:40:23 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/2008esolangchallenge.html
19:47:48 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p152246423.txt
19:49:05 <oklopol> "run" is python, as are the """'s
19:49:38 <oklopol> also, the spaces shouldn't be in the output, they are there because python
19:53:35 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/2008esolangchallenge.html
20:00:38 <oklopol> what does that have to do with anything
20:00:49 <oklopol> that was a sample program, and a sample output
20:01:29 <psygnisfive> yes but you should put all this in the page for the interp
20:01:35 <ais523> oklopol: psygnisfive wants everyone to make a web-page that looks like that for a web-based interp
20:01:50 <psygnisfive> yes. the idea is that its nice and uniform
20:02:16 <ehird> everyone can work out how to use an online interp
20:02:18 <ehird> it's not rocket science.
20:02:33 <psygnisfive> yes, but its easier if theres just a standard thing that the author doesnt have to think about
20:02:44 <psygnisfive> all you have to do is wrap your interp around it.
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20:03:59 <psygnisfive> i mean, make oyur own, whatever, but the page is there for you to use if you want. and should have all those elements. thats the curcial point.
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20:04:12 <ais523> whoops, messed up the keybindings in my window manager
20:04:29 <Sgeo[College]> psygnisfivei mean, make oyur own, whatever, but the page is there for you to use if you want. and should have all those elements. thats the curcial point.
20:04:42 <ais523> and hit /part by mistake
20:04:44 <ehird> Sgeo[College]psygnisfivei mean, make oyur own, whatever, but the page is there for you to use if you want. and should have all those elements. thats the curcial point.
20:04:48 <ais523> which is a button here as well as a command
20:04:51 <ais523> and I clicked on it accidentally
20:04:59 <ais523> trying to figure out why nothing was responding to clicks
20:05:04 <psygnisfive> ehirdSgeo[College]psygnisfivei mean, make oyur own, whatever, but the page is there for you to use if you want. and should have all those elements. thats the curcial point.
20:06:27 <ehird> psygnisfiveehirdSgeo[College]psygnisfivei mean, make oyur own, whatever, but the page is there for you to use if you want. and should have all those elements. thats the curcial point.
20:06:50 <psygnisfive> use the page, dont, whatever. but have all that shit.
20:09:40 <oklopol> umm yeah i can use that interface if i put an interp up somewhere...
20:09:51 <psygnisfive> well you're gonna have to put the interp up somewhere :P
20:09:52 <oklopol> but i don't see what that has to do with my code sample.
20:10:15 <oklopol> not necessarily, perhaps i think that one sample is enough to reverse-engineer the whole language ;)
20:10:25 <psygnisfive> yes but then how will people know they did it right?
20:10:51 <psygnisfive> the point of the interp is that you have to reverse engineer the language by experiment as well
20:11:06 <psygnisfive> i mean, you dont want to just GIVE THEM everything
20:11:08 <oklopol> afaik vjn's server doesn't run python with current configurations
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20:11:42 <oklopol> no i'm not giving them everything, i'm giving them one code sample atm.
20:12:11 <psygnisfive> sure. but the challenge, theoretically, is for more than just Hello World
20:12:50 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/2008esolangchallenge.html
20:13:13 <psygnisfive> your sample code should be enough to make it possible to do all four of those
20:13:25 <psygnisfive> (unless your language can't do some at all)
20:14:16 <oklopol> if you can run python, i can give you a .pyc, anything more is too much hassle
20:14:26 <ehird> you cant run .pycs as a cgi
20:14:27 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p152246423.txt is all anyone will ever need!
20:14:38 <ehird> which does 'import foo'
20:14:42 <ehird> ais523: because you can't put a shebang on them
20:14:44 <ehird> because they're binary
20:14:51 <oklopol> psygnisfive: what about pm's?
20:14:52 <ais523> it's easy enough to do a wrapper
20:14:55 <ehird> ais523: well, yeah
20:16:29 <ais523> psygnisfive: I don't get who you're trying to do what atm
20:16:48 <oklopol> ais523: i don't get what sentence you mean is
20:17:05 <ais523> I don't get who you're trying to get to do what atm
20:17:20 <psygnisfive> im trying to get anyone who wants to to do what they need to
20:18:16 <oklopol> ais523: did you reverse-engineer it yet? ;)
20:18:28 <ais523> nope, haven't been paying much attention
20:18:36 <ais523> also, my client's loading text files in OpenOffice atm
20:18:52 <ais523> making it a pain to read that
20:25:01 <ais523> but, you know, I can't design interesting esolangs straight-off
20:25:05 <ais523> so later as in when I have a good idea
20:31:51 <psygnisfive> part of the challenge is coming up with stuff
20:32:46 <Deewiant> I notice that the 2006 contest is still somewhat a WIP :-P
20:34:01 <oklopol> this is a very different kind of competition
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20:40:56 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/2008esolangchallenge.html
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21:12:00 <oklopol> i think i have another language idea, but this one is even weirder.
21:12:31 <oklopol> psygnisfive: the spaces between chars are because python, the program shouldn't actually produce them
21:12:52 <oklopol> also can't you use a fixed character width?
21:12:59 <oklopol> the output, it's h e l l o now, should be hello
21:13:36 <oklopol> i mean, periods don't exactly look all that clean next to each other, and some languages may require vertical lines.
21:14:12 <ais523> I have a few guesses, from inspection of the program
21:14:15 <oklopol> with fixed width you can *read* it, that's the difference.
21:14:21 <ehird> psygnisfive: submission:
21:14:22 <ehird> sjfldsfjdls jskldfjsdklfj sljlskdfklsdf
21:14:24 <ehird> figure out what it does
21:14:37 <ais523> ehird: that's you banging on your keyboard, or else made to look very like that
21:14:41 <ehird> ais523: the latter
21:14:54 <psygnisfive> ehird: please adhere as strictly to the guidelines as possible.
21:15:13 <ehird> gee a high barrier to entry sure is the way to get people involved
21:15:28 <psygnisfive> its not a high barrier to entry at all cunt bag
21:15:39 <jayCampbell> ehird's is a `cat` in a ringed state engine
21:15:50 <oklopol> ehird: there's really not much you can do without sample input
21:15:58 <oklopol> you probably didn't know that.
21:15:59 <ehird> it is like a cat banging on a keyboard admittedly
21:16:36 <ais523> anyway, should I share my guesses about oklopol's lang here, or privately, or just keep them to myself?
21:26:14 <ais523> ehird: I told oklopol in /msg so as not to spoil for anyone else
21:26:20 <ehird> oklopol: oklopol llllllllll
21:26:33 <ehird> oklopol: is oklotalk selfmodifying syntaxyyyyyyy
21:26:55 <ehird> but if i talk long enough to him
21:31:55 <oklopol> well yeah i will, but i'm really trying to leave for tonight. and actually decided i wouldn't say anything when i sit here. but then i did say this message.
21:32:22 <ehird> oklopol: is oklotalk done have self-modify syntax
21:32:55 <jayCampbell> what default parser toolkit do you guys use?
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21:32:58 <psygnisfive> you have to make a program that does Hello World
21:33:10 <ehird> jayCampbell: we hand-code, mostly
21:33:16 <ais523> jayCampbell: it depends on the situation, for esolangs it's often either possible or necessary to hand-code
21:33:21 <oklopol> it's not done have it's designed have. actually was one of my design goals for the later version plannings of oklotalk.
21:33:23 <ais523> so hand-coded if it's either very easy or very difficult
21:33:24 <ehird> the language of choice for implementing seems to be either c or python around here
21:33:27 <ehird> depending on the person
21:33:41 <ais523> all sorts of stuff for in-between, for instance C-INTERCAL is lex/yacc
21:33:45 <oklopol> to have very syntax syntax.
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21:33:52 <ais523> also, I commonly use Perl for stuff for which it's appropriate
21:33:56 <ehird> other esolangs are also prime things for implements
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21:34:09 <psygnisfive> i prefer to implement with JS or Ruby because of the flexibility
21:34:13 <ais523> and yes, implementing esolangs in other esolangs is common if it works
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21:34:21 <jayCampbell> perl is the original rapid development platform
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21:36:30 <ehird> lament: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
21:43:59 <jayCampbell> i'm pondering a parsablility challenge where the program text is a set of parameters to a darwinian environment full of code snippets .. you can't program, you can simply attempt to grow a program that approaches the desired output
21:45:46 <ehird> a program which generated the correct grower for a program would, of course, be called intelligent_design
21:46:28 <jayCampbell> we'll be happier when we figure out god's fitness test methods?
21:47:48 <psygnisfive> jaycampbell: be aware that the parsability challenge requires that you design and submit specs for a language, and then people try to make a parser for it.
21:48:00 <psygnisfive> presumably you should have some idea of how it should work. :P
21:48:12 <ais523> psygnisfive: why have you gone all "I'm defining the contest to work exactly like this and you do as I say" on us?
21:48:17 <jayCampbell> that's the problem, i'd rather write the parser than the spec
21:48:28 <ehird> psygnisfive is being a dictator
21:49:46 <jayCampbell> randomly constructed methods in _why's sandboxes
21:49:49 <ais523> probably lots of langs would work
21:50:22 <ais523> you could write an interp in a compiled language
21:50:33 <ais523> for that matter, you can write compilers in interpreted langs
21:50:47 <ais523> useful for golfing as if you're compiling into the same lang, you can just put an eval at the end to get an "interp"
21:50:52 <jayCampbell> ruby metaprogramming feels right for this one
21:51:27 <jayCampbell> the genetic programming harness and the critter language don't have to be the same
21:52:00 <jayCampbell> i remember the other competition meta-idea i head
21:52:44 <jayCampbell> programs must not only execute their intended function, but defend themselves from other submissions
21:52:57 <jayCampbell> base it on one of the friendlier languages
21:53:13 <ais523> there's FukYorBrane already, but it's broken
21:53:22 <jayCampbell> something high level, ideally something that can be stepped through to keep compute cycles divvied fairly
21:53:33 <ais523> probably Funge would be a good choice then
21:53:41 <ais523> it's one of the higher-level esolangs
21:53:48 <ais523> and has strict concurrency stepping rules
21:54:01 <ais523> also, it's self-modifying (and thus other-modifying), what more could you want?
21:54:53 <jayCampbell> most esolangs could be given the core wars abstraction layer
21:57:10 <jayCampbell> you guys are real fans of these compact esolangs .. single byte commands and limited stacks
21:57:57 <ais523> they're a good way to show off a particularly unusual idea
21:59:58 <ehird> jayCampbell: they're simple to make, is why they're so popular
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22:00:56 <psyg5> so yeah, jaycampbell it was
22:02:05 <jayCampbell> those little state engines are good practice for tcp programming
22:02:48 <jayCampbell> shakespeare is mis-categorized, it's not a high level language
22:02:57 <ais523> hardly any esolangs are
22:05:04 <psyg5> if you submit both the language and the parser, thats fine
22:05:10 <jayCampbell> i guess as soon as you introduce reflection you open up porting to whole ruby standard library to your not-so-eso-anymore-lang
22:05:12 <psyg5> we're just going to keep them separate in the challenge
22:05:30 <psyg5> and if your parser doesnt work, well, that sucks for you. :P
22:05:59 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:06:23 <psyg5> but yeah, jaycampbell, do design such a language
22:06:57 <psyg5> im going to try to design one and provide a parser, sometime two weeks from now
22:07:38 <psyg5> as i noted, you can design any sort of language not just a programming language, for the parsability challenge.
22:09:06 <psyg5> yep. its more in the Esoteric Formal Language category than strictly Esoteric Programming Language category
22:09:24 <psyg5> but esoproglangs can be esoformlangs too
22:09:41 <psyg5> and parsability is especially more a formal thing
22:09:49 <psyg5> whereas interpretability is a programming thing
22:09:52 <psyg5> so either one is cool
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22:10:47 <psyg5> if you do the parsability part, the weirder the language the better
22:10:56 <psyg5> the harder it is to parse something, the better it is as a challenge.
22:11:46 <psyg5> which means weirder = better
22:15:50 <oklopol> 23:53:11 ais523: there's FukYorBrane already, but it's broken <<< ?
22:16:08 <ais523> oklopol: because you can move your IP faster than the enemy program can catch up with it
22:16:31 <ais523> so you can have 1000000 bytes of junk inside a loop that never runs, then you have a million free cycles undisruptable by the opposing program
22:18:13 <oklopol> GregorR: i hear you suck ass, is this true?
22:25:05 <jayCampbell> it doesn't have to be a direct core war analogy where you pollute the other guy's code
22:26:32 <jayCampbell> other intermediate goals and challenges could be artificially glued on
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22:49:06 <oklopol> ehird: i heard from a reliable source that you suck too, is this true?
22:49:51 <oklopol> anyway wasn't BeYourFunge ehird's corewards on befunge?
22:50:01 <ehird> but it didnt work lulz
22:50:13 <oklopol> yeah i vaguely recall something like that.
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23:01:30 <AnMaster> ais523, I forgot to ask: Had any time for gcc-bf?
23:03:00 <psyg5> will you participate in the challenge?
23:12:00 <jayCampbell> rather than genetic cycles, what if program text was the source for a markov chainer
23:12:26 <jayCampbell> with a deterministic random number generator
23:12:51 <jayCampbell> so given the right source texts it might eventually be shown turing complete
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00:43:38 <GregorR> oklopol, ehird: Depends on the price.
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02:52:18 <Chase-san> Think there are simpler ways to do bitwise and bitshift operations in bf. (I can do bitshift with multiplication and division, but bitwise or and and xor still evade me)
02:53:59 <Chase-san> Anyone have an ideas on how to do the bitwise in bf (even using multiplication division etc)
02:56:37 <Chase-san> aside from the really long way <.<
02:57:02 <Chase-san> (ergo seperating out every bit, checking each bit and then putting it all back togeather again)
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03:06:37 <pikhq> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms
03:12:07 <lament> but with three ands, you don't need commas
03:12:18 <lament> "or and and and xor" is perfect english
03:12:30 <pikhq> jayCampbell: | && ^ ?
03:15:22 <pikhq> true/false, where true=1 and false=0.
03:16:10 <Chase-san> you can't do that in some languages (its a nice shortcut though)
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03:16:39 <Chase-san> not sure what negative values are treated as
03:16:41 <jayCampbell> foo where bar had had had had had had had had had had been the correct response
03:17:26 <jayCampbell> Foo, where Bar had had "had," had had "had had." "Had had" had been the correct response.
03:17:35 <Chase-san> but now you force me to continue on
03:17:40 <pikhq> Chase-san They're cast to unsigned first.
03:18:01 <jayCampbell> ruby's idea of false keeps making me grumble
03:19:50 <jayCampbell> -1, 0, empty lists, empty strings .. are all true
03:20:26 <jayCampbell> basically only useful for checking failed hash matches
03:20:39 <Chase-san> I am trying to come up with a neat way to optimize loops in my bf interpreter, but all I can think of is a type of Artificial Nueron, but I don't feel like implimenting that. :(
03:22:15 <jayCampbell> false and nil are the only non-true concepts without a value
03:22:35 <jayCampbell> hm value isn't even the right word, because they're both valid right-handers
03:23:30 <jayCampbell> the most unintentionally poetic line of my year
03:34:31 <Chase-san> random question, how do you guys get motivated to work on something you don't really want to work on
03:39:18 <Chase-san> how do you get motivated to do those things?
03:39:30 <jayCampbell> why do you think you want to do the project?
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11:59:19 <Pyramidhead> http://www.redbubble.com/people/butcherbrand/clothing/424598-6-love-machine-9000
11:59:42 <Pyramidhead> Someone violated the copyright registered trademark patent of the Love Machine 9000 >:|
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12:12:57 <ehird> <jayCampbell> earlier i typed: cat = cats.pop.pop
12:13:22 <oerjan> better than cats.pop.poop
12:15:41 <oerjan> popcorn. made from cats.
12:16:02 <Slereah> It's pop music, made by cats.
12:16:14 <Slereah> Like "Cat-fu fighting" by Kawaii Kenji
12:16:21 <oerjan> corny pop music, or is that redundant?
12:19:43 <Slereah> meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow
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12:20:07 <Slereah> Well, the translation is much more deeper.
12:20:33 <oerjan> i c a cat food commercial?
12:21:04 <Slereah> You never heard the meow mix song? :o
12:21:26 <Slereah> http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=5JuVHCJVYf4
12:21:38 <Slereah> Come on, it was even on the Simpsons!
12:22:29 <oerjan> i don't watch television
12:22:49 <Slereah> But I still watch the Simpsons
12:23:20 <oerjan> also, those weren't cats singing
12:23:31 <Slereah> HOW DARE YOU CALL THEM LIARS
12:23:41 <Slereah> YOU HAVE A LOT OF CHUTZPAH
12:24:23 <oerjan> i have a lifetime subscription of that
12:28:47 <oerjan> i refuse to be taken in by catfood commercials unless they're narrated by _real_ cats
12:29:01 <oerjan> i don't want to fooled, no sir
12:29:47 <oerjan> something to tell my grandchildren, if i expected to have any
12:43:01 <Slereah> Cats will tell your grand children
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16:41:42 <GregorR> I don't trust canned cat food that isn't made from food cats eat in the wild.
16:41:57 <GregorR> I still want to find the roach and spider bits in rat gravy cat food.
16:42:00 <GregorR> I'm sure Tia would love it.
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17:58:03 <jayCampbell> random brainfuck code generators tend to create ABBA as their first recognizeable output, fyi
18:00:33 <Mony> ABBA like.... Mony Mony Mony, must be funny
18:05:22 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:08:05 <ehird> jayCampbell: haha, why?
18:08:35 <ais523> +ul (thutubot, you here?)S
18:08:39 <ehird> someone restart it
18:08:56 <oerjan> wherefore art thou, optbot?
18:10:53 <jayCampbell> ehird, to test bf interpreters .. bff4 is fast but has poor bounds checking f'rinstance
18:11:58 <ehird> jayCampbell: i mean
18:12:01 <ehird> jayCampbell: why do they produce abba
18:12:35 <ehird> but why abba in particular?
18:12:37 <jayCampbell> as soon as you hit A, print, increment, print, print, decrement, print
18:12:53 <jayCampbell> as opposed to the operations required to print QWERTY
18:13:02 <ehird> jayCampbell: surely A should be printed first
18:13:47 <jayCampbell> since the output of so many of these runs is identical
18:14:49 <jayCampbell> in the end i'll probably base this on the python bf interpreter so the harness doesn't have to boot a separate interpreter process
18:15:05 <jayCampbell> and i'll be able to add in cycle and output limits
18:16:35 <jayCampbell> trying to decide whether to make the programmer create his fitness tests in bf
18:20:53 <ehird> jayCampbell: how does your generator work?
18:21:01 <ehird> just pick +-,.<> or loop?
18:21:10 <ehird> and then stick those in, for a loop stick [, random prorgam, ]?
18:21:16 <ehird> and then stop randomly?
18:28:51 <jayCampbell> the last batch had no input and a loop depth limit of 1
18:44:34 <jayCampbell> if nothing else, i'm going to brute force useful snippets that use no looping
18:45:19 <jayCampbell> if that works out i'll try feeding known inputs and make loopless utility functions
18:45:24 <ehird> jayCampbell: i'm going to write a copy of that
18:45:27 <ehird> btw, have you tried bff?
18:45:35 <ehird> its not as fast as bff4 but it's fast
18:46:25 <jayCampbell> fast boot is more important than fast execution in this case
18:46:50 <jayCampbell> one of the high level language implementations might give me better overall speed
18:46:56 <ehird> jayCampbell: http://swapped.cc/bf/
18:48:20 <jayCampbell> how well does it handle malformed programs
18:48:31 <ehird> jayCampbell: well, I believe
18:48:47 <ehird> use the makefile that comes with it
18:49:29 <ehird> % time (echo '['|./bff)
18:49:30 <ehird> bff: no matching ]
18:49:30 <ehird> (; echo '[' | ./bff; ) 0.00s user 0.00s system 77% cpu 0.006 total
18:51:48 <oerjan> jayCampbell: you may also consider loops with matching <>, then you can calculate the bounds of tape used
18:52:48 <jayCampbell> i won't care unless its output is interesting
18:53:17 <jayCampbell> it can't swamp my machine in the 1 second max i give it
18:53:43 <oerjan> i mean to avoid segfaults
18:54:17 <jayCampbell> or supply exactly enough input to satisfy the reads
18:54:47 <ehird> jayCampbell: how do you handle timeouts?
18:54:48 <jayCampbell> but the joy of this was just mashing random characters together
18:54:50 <ehird> just run it for <1 second?
18:55:05 <ehird> jayCampbell: ah, multithreaded
18:55:12 <ehird> you can probably run 30 brainfuck programs for 1 second at once
18:56:15 <jayCampbell> but yeah, this is way easier than constructing random but valid perl
18:56:56 <ehird> jayCampbell: do you do it deterministically, or just random?
18:58:29 <jayCampbell> perl, random action, which sometimes means adding matching braces or parens or etc
18:59:28 -!- fungot has joined.
18:59:56 <jayCampbell> system "echo '#{program}' | ./bff |head -c1000 >outputs/#{m} 2>/dev/null"
19:02:36 <fungot> oerjan: it has gone down already ( my thermometer has run out of " dogface" advocates atheism. is the same as
19:03:12 <fungot> oerjan: no man, i'm feeling a bit overall-confused, been implementing oklotalk a bit too oriented towards java's excuse for oo. i learned over the course of two hours.
19:04:02 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:04:19 <oerjan> fungot: i'm sure oklopol wouldn't recommend that
19:04:19 <fungot> oerjan: sounds quite interesting
19:16:47 <ais523> summary of the discussion: is setting SIGPIPE to ignore a good idea?
19:18:11 <ais523> is a Funge-98 program that does what the yes command does
19:18:19 <ais523> if I pipe that into head, should it exit?
19:19:15 <ehird> ais523: yes it should.
19:19:25 <AnMaster> yes, it should detect the reflect and exit
19:19:25 <ais523> that's what I think too
19:19:35 <ais523> nope, that program doesn't detect reflections
19:19:37 <ais523> but it should exit anyway
19:19:45 <ais523> why should , reflect when writing into a blocked pipe?
19:19:47 <ehird> it should exit with an error
19:20:17 <ehird> because both python and ruby do it
19:20:20 <ehird> -e:1:in `write': Broken pipe (Errno::EPIPE)
19:20:23 <ehird> Traceback (most recent call last):
19:20:23 <ehird> File "<string>", line 1, in <module>
19:20:23 <ehird> IOError: [Errno 32] Broken pipe
19:20:46 <AnMaster> "These instructions will act as r does, should the standard output fail for any reason."
19:20:49 <AnMaster> http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html#Stdio
19:21:05 <AnMaster> no the interpreter shouldn't exit
19:21:16 <ais523> is that standard output failure?
19:21:42 <AnMaster> ais523, so doing anything else would break the specs too
19:21:47 <AnMaster> something I'm not prepared to do
19:22:22 <ais523> I had the linked page open before you linked it, by the way
19:22:25 <AnMaster> ais523, also both of ehird's examples,seemed to throw exceptions
19:22:35 <ais523> and ok, that's interesting
19:22:43 <ehird> since the IO, to stdout, failed
19:22:49 <ehird> just like a read from stdin fails after EOF
19:23:02 <AnMaster> ehird, think of reflect as funge exception then
19:23:19 <AnMaster> yes and that is what the specs say
19:24:23 <AnMaster> ais523, so in summary, that yes program should have been:
19:26:28 <ais523> and longer, and less useful
19:26:44 <AnMaster> ais523, both those examples are equally long
19:27:21 <ais523> and also correct, that's how you'd write it in C
19:27:31 <AnMaster> ais523, well, but see http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html#Stdio
19:27:45 <ais523> personally I think writing to a closed pipe isn't output failing
19:27:47 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not going to change cfunge in a way that breaks the spec
19:27:50 <ais523> that's completely against the UNIX philosophy
19:27:55 <ais523> it's output succeeding, just going nowhere
19:27:57 <ehird> your unix philosophy is broken
19:28:04 <ais523> and the program that writes is closed in order to save time and processor cycles
19:28:04 <ehird> since that is exactly how it behaves
19:28:20 <ehird> AnMaster: how the fuck did you get off my ignore list?
19:28:21 <ais523> ehird: are cat file.txt | head and head < file.txt identical?
19:28:32 <AnMaster> ehird, no clue, I guess you unignored me
19:28:35 <ais523> no, they aren't, in your interpretation
19:28:36 <AnMaster> I certainly didn't change anything
19:28:39 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm not that idiotic
19:28:54 <AnMaster> ehird, well I didn't change ident or anything
19:28:57 <ais523> because the second one, standard input to head clearly works correctly
19:28:59 <AnMaster> maybe a bug in your client or something
19:29:14 <ais523> the first, standard output from cat, according to you, stops working when head ends
19:29:19 <ais523> it doesn't, it's just that cat is SIGPIPEd
19:29:20 <ehird> AnMaster: no, i was ignoring you via nickname.
19:29:24 <ais523> which is the reason SIGPIPE works
19:29:30 <AnMaster> ehird, well my nick is still the same
19:30:53 <oerjan> ehird: clearly you have been sleepunignoring
19:30:54 <AnMaster> ais523, and no cat file.txt | head and head < file.txt aren't identical. One only uses bash/shell, the other invokes cat
19:31:12 <ehird> <AnMaster> ais523, and no cat file.txt | head and head < file.txt aren't identical. One only uses bash/shell, the other invokes cat
19:31:15 <ehird> ^ not really fucking obvious
19:31:22 <ehird> to a tedious degree. nope
19:31:39 <oklopol> they're different, the latter one doesn't have a "c" for instance.
19:31:59 <oklopol> it's the *first* character
19:32:16 <oklopol> (no, all implementations of cat start with "c", actually)
19:32:20 <AnMaster> jayCampbell, hm where have I seen that name before...
19:32:30 <ehird> AnMaster: he's a b player.
19:32:52 <AnMaster> ehird, ah I think I may have had a look at their website once before
19:32:54 <ehird> jayCampbell: AnMaster only ever played one nomic, me/ais523/ihope (defacto founders)'s IRCNomic
19:33:02 <ehird> he wasn't very good at it (imo.)
19:33:08 <ehird> so i dunno how he's seen your name
19:33:10 <ais523> ehird: just on the opposite side of the big argument to you
19:33:25 <ehird> ais523: i wasn't talking about that
19:33:27 <ais523> oklopol: doesn't the standard C implementation of cat start with #
19:33:38 <ehird> i was talking about how he would oppose every change that wasn't utilitarianly sensible
19:33:45 <ehird> to the highest degree
19:33:50 <AnMaster> ais523, um? It could start with /* I guess
19:33:56 <ais523> I was wondering about that
19:34:07 <oerjan> ais523: just on the opposite side of _every_ argument, Miss Sophie
19:34:11 <ais523> does the standard C implementation of cat have a particular licence?
19:34:14 <oklopol> ais523: no the *name* of every cat starts with a "c"
19:34:17 <jayCampbell> some cats buffer all their input, which can allow more execution to happen than head<foo.txt
19:35:07 <oerjan> why does all discussion on this channel turn to cats these days?
19:35:08 <jayCampbell> you'll see it when guys try to reimplement the standard unix command set in scripting languages
19:35:24 <AnMaster> jayCampbell, I know head foo.txt is best ;P
19:35:58 <ehird> AnMaster: har har har
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19:36:27 <oklopol> oerjan: why does all discussion on this channel turn to wondering why all discussion turns to things these days these days?
19:37:07 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!oh dear, it seems BF has no way to handle SIGPIPE
19:37:07 <fungot> oh dear, it seems BF has no way to handle SIGPIPE
19:37:11 <oerjan> oklopol: why does every snarky comment end up containing stupid typos these days?
19:37:24 <oklopol> oerjan: that makes no sense without a typo
19:38:08 <oerjan> but that was your typo too
19:38:22 <AnMaster> <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!oh dear, it seems BF has no way to handle SIG <-- what about it?
19:38:38 <ais523> AnMaster: BF cat programs seem to work fine
19:38:58 <ais523> say you're writing a BF interp in funge-98, would you handle reflection in ,
19:39:10 <AnMaster> ais523, you would have to in your , yes
19:39:29 <ais523> how many people check , for reflections in Funge programs
19:39:35 <ais523> does Mycology, for instance
19:39:38 <ais523> and no, it's , in Befunge
19:39:57 <AnMaster> ais523, well, I don't know who checks it, but I'm not going to break the specs
19:40:06 <AnMaster> I fully agree with ehird there
19:40:22 <oerjan> the universe is collapsing!
19:40:26 <ehird> i'd break the spec if the spec is wrong.
19:40:32 <oklopol> oerjan: stop making a scene!
19:40:43 <ais523> does Mycology check for reflections from ,
19:40:54 <AnMaster> ais523, don't know, but if it doesn't it is it's own issue
19:41:05 <oerjan> oklopol: it was just an apparent agreement between AnMaster and ehird. fortunately it was overrated. only AnMaster thought they agreed.
19:41:32 <AnMaster> ais523, nothing is going to make me break the spec on this issue
19:41:35 <oklopol> yes, which is actually a higher level of disagreement.
19:41:39 <AnMaster> also it would break various fingerprints
19:41:40 <oerjan> so the universe still exists, for the time being.
19:42:40 <ais523> the universe will collapse if oerjan blinks?
19:42:45 <ais523> wow, I didn't know oerjan could do that...
19:42:48 <oerjan> too late. are we in a new universe now?
19:42:58 <AnMaster> ais523, no, common misunderstanding
19:43:07 <AnMaster> it will collapse the wave function thingy
19:43:42 <oklopol> my dad's scientist friend said the world actually *oscillates* between the wave form and the particle form.
19:43:59 <oerjan> http://www.mezzacotta.net/singles/collapse_a_wavefunction.php
19:44:22 <oklopol> AnMaster: when you blink too, pretty much all the time.
19:44:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, what if you had javascript off when you clicked and nothing happened?
19:45:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: it requires javascript?
19:46:21 <ehird> what if you click both buttons simultaneously
19:46:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think that means you change from Fermi-Dirac statistics to Bose-Einstein statistics, as your cases then become indistinguishable
19:46:51 <Sgeo> Not sure that that sort of decision is one where there is actually random stuff going on in the brain
19:46:54 <oerjan> try using it to make a laser
19:47:42 <oerjan> oklopol: i think that means you dad's scientist friend is not _particularly_ clever
19:49:26 <oerjan> or wait the cases are indistuingishable in Fermi-Dirac statistics too, it's just swapping the cases which isn't
19:50:24 <oerjan> ehird: but if you click both buttons simultaneously and nothing happens, that should prove it's Fermi-Dirac
19:50:50 <oerjan> since two identical cases cancel
19:51:37 <oklopol> http://web.petrsu.ru/~alexk/list_of_publications/ <<< dunno if he's clever, but i find this an impressive list
19:51:41 <oerjan> now excuse me while i go recalibrating my death ray
19:52:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, those seem to be biology/medicine
19:52:43 <oklopol> half of that is parapsychology afaik, but i think there's some serious stuff too
19:53:27 <oklopol> 2.5 Kaivarainen A. Application of Hierarchic Concept of Matter and Wave-Particle Duality Model for Explanation of "Biological" and "Informational" Fields Emergency (paper). Proceedings of the Second Annual Advanced Water Sciences Symposium October 4-6, 1996 Dallas, Texas, USA.
19:53:46 <Slereah> This sounds a lot like pseudoscience
19:54:13 <oklopol> he believes in ghosts, homeopathy, and that speed of light is not the maximum attainable speed.
19:54:24 <oklopol> dunno, i can't raed his writings
19:54:24 <ehird> oklopol: he's an idiot
19:54:35 <ehird> ok, so the last one could be true if all the physics we know is wrong
19:54:41 <Slereah> DON'T YOU KNOW GHOSTS ARE REAL OKLOPOL?
19:54:44 <ehird> and the former is ...
19:54:54 <ehird> but homeopathy is provably bullshit
19:54:57 <Slereah> What happens when a ghost dies?
19:54:59 <AnMaster> ehird, ghosts could be true if everything else we know are wrong as well
19:55:06 <oerjan> Slereah: rebirth. sheesh.
19:55:07 <Slereah> Does it make a ghost ghost?
19:55:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, what about reasonable (i.e. not creation-science nonsense) christian scientists?
19:55:42 <ehird> they believe in similarly silly stuff, I don't think it makes their _science_ any less reasonable
19:56:13 <ehird> but um yeah that guy sounds like a crackpot
19:56:21 <ehird> Evidence for mobility of immunoglobulins domains obtained by spin-label method.
19:56:26 <ehird> immunoglobulins, man
19:56:54 <Slereah> So I won't say anything about this
19:57:22 <oklopol> hard to say anything really, i don't understand a word of that.
19:58:04 <oerjan> immunoglobulins sounds like it could exist
19:58:20 <oklopol> a swedish scientist recently contacted him about a theory of his about the form of the electron
19:58:38 <Slereah> Is it shaped like a mystical symbol?
19:58:39 <oklopol> said he had made the exact same conclusion in his experiments
19:58:39 <oerjan> == antibodies, says wp
19:59:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Well, what about reasonable (i.e. not creation-science nonsense) christian scientists? <-- I don't know enough about them to be able to answer that question
19:59:43 <ehird> jayCampbell: careful, AnMaster will whine for days if you talk about timecube
19:59:54 <Slereah> That's because he's educated stupid
20:00:24 <oerjan> that's not the frying pan that's the flyswatter
20:00:44 <oerjan> This is the frying pan ===\__/
20:00:45 <AnMaster> that explains why it was so light
20:01:04 * AnMaster borrows the frying pan too and use it on jayCampbell ===\__/
20:01:23 * AnMaster gives oerjan the frying pan and the fly swatter bacjk
20:02:09 <oerjan> bulked again ===\/\/ :(
20:02:22 <oklopol> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
20:02:31 * ais523 hits oerjan with a smiley :)
20:02:51 <oklopol> my :------------D's make more damage
20:03:07 <oklopol> hard to say without the spaces
20:03:26 <oerjan> Slereah: you have a strange nose
20:03:41 <jayCampbell> you never should have abandoned fixed width fonts
20:04:24 <oklopol> non-fixed size fonts make no sense
20:04:44 <oklopol> my irc client sucks, it's a naughty irc client.
20:04:56 <Slereah> ................................................_,,,,-------,,,__
20:04:56 <Slereah> ........................................,,;:#ggg@@g;,..........`=-,
20:04:56 <Slereah> ..................................,,;$#^`````*#@@@g;,.............=-,
20:04:56 <Slereah> ...............................,/$`................``#@@@#g,...............\,
20:04:56 <Slereah> ........................._,;f`.......................,$@@@@#g,..............\,
20:04:57 <Slereah> ....................,/*&gp..+,_..................%*#@@@@g;,............\,
20:04:59 <Slereah> ................,./_`>.....`#$$#x;,............,%@@@@@#g;,..........`\
20:05:01 <Slereah> ..............,/ (.............`\....`\*=,``\.......*&*%@@@@@g;,..........\
20:05:03 <Slereah> ...........,/...,^=*#q,_,/`\.......`~..`-.......g$@@@@@@@#g,........|
20:05:05 <Slereah> ........../,;p8jq;,_..........;.........................`%@@@@@@@#g;....|
20:05:07 <Slereah> ........,/.f,,,,_..`*8r-,.....;......................,&@@@@@@@@@#./
20:05:07 <oklopol> Slereah: so... did you read any of the physics articles?
20:05:09 <Slereah> ......./.,$ `\,...`.-...&..../........................`%@@@@@@@@$#/
20:05:11 <Slereah> .....,/,$--__........`\..../............................#$@@@##@@@@/
20:05:13 <Slereah> ...,/\...`t-,__,;>`..../.........................................;`==.`;@#*
20:05:15 <Slereah> .,/....`~--~`....-`...................................,--,~#-,.._*`
20:05:17 <Slereah> (..........................................................,....`......,;`
20:05:19 <Slereah> .`\,_.....................................................&`*-,,_-`
20:05:21 <Slereah> .......`-,_................................................./
20:05:23 <Slereah> .............\..................................................|.
20:05:49 <ais523> Slereah: is that in latin-1, some of the chars don't come out properly and my client's set to utf-8
20:06:25 <Slereah> lament : Actually, in this movie, Batman is watching an old love interest
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20:14:53 <AnMaster> <jayCampbell> you never should have abandoned fixed width fonts <-- who would have done that?
20:16:09 <oklopol> ehird: you're stuppit i hate you :<
20:16:16 <ehird> i hate you too oklopol
20:16:26 <oklopol> i hate you always one more
20:16:56 <ehird> ais523: "MARRY ME OKLOPOL BECAUSE YOU ARE STUPPID AND HATEWORTHY LIKE ME"
20:18:34 <AnMaster> anyway whatever it was Slereah posted above is just odd
20:19:03 <AnMaster> the lines doesn't even match up
20:19:36 <ehird> looked like one in this font.
20:19:37 <Slereah> http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Grieving_Jew
20:19:52 <AnMaster> Slereah, what is it with you and yews?
20:20:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Shut up, yazi.
20:21:13 <ais523> hang on, this is IRC, how do I lock the thread?
20:21:20 <ais523> ----------------------------------------- THREAD LOCKED -----------------------------------------
20:21:25 <ais523> now to talk about something else
20:21:35 <ehird> ais523: yeah, silence the TRUTH ABOUT YAZIS
20:21:36 <ais523> ehird: stop resurrecting dead threads in a new thread
20:22:01 <ais523> +ul (a):*:*:*:*:*:*(:)~^S
20:22:01 <thutubot> ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((:)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) ...too much output!
20:22:24 -!- Mony has quit ("Join the Damnation now !").
20:24:13 <oerjan> your yoke is not funny
20:25:13 <oerjan> eggs don't have yokes, they have yolks
20:25:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, what? I use a yoystick not a yoke
20:25:56 <oerjan> on yoyous occasions, i assume
20:25:57 <AnMaster> Slereah, yoke is a control found in aircrafts
20:26:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, nah I'm just a flightsim fan
20:26:27 <AnMaster> so I do it even if it isn't a yoyous occasion
20:26:28 <ehird> yews yews yews yews yews
20:26:42 <oerjan> that's not the orginal meaning of yoke
20:26:54 <oerjan> yokes are for yaks and yoxen
20:27:17 <ehird> +ul ((yews )S:^):^
20:27:17 <thutubot> yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews yews ...too much output!
20:27:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Ayoke
20:28:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, seems it have lots of meanings
20:34:01 <oerjan> you do a lot of wobbling
20:35:46 <ais523> routers here are either dodgy, or paranoid, I think
20:36:00 <ais523> it normally takes me about 5 mins to convince them I'm allowed on the network
20:36:18 <oerjan> why not both? </dogbert>
20:41:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: he is afraid it'll work as well as the doors
20:41:46 <ais523> btw, the Door is broken again, physically this time
20:43:17 <oerjan> maybe try an exorcist this time
20:43:28 <ais523> probably we need a door engineer
20:43:40 * ais523 is amused at how badly you can mess up a door, I mean it's only a door...
20:44:44 <AnMaster> ais523, the door is broken? How did you get in then?
20:45:14 <ais523> there are three doors, all of which lead to different problems
20:45:16 <ais523> there is the Door, the main one
20:45:37 <ais523> then there's the back door, which lets people out any time of day but only in during working hours, that's the one I got in via
20:46:00 <ais523> and then there's the basement door which needs a swipe card to get through in either direction, and most of the time it isn't configured to let anyone through
20:46:55 <oerjan> and then there are the two doors guarded by a knight and a knave
20:47:31 <ais523> I haven't found those yet, but if I do, I should be able to get through easily, I've read most of Smullyan's stuff
20:47:51 <oerjan> ais523: unless they are the xkcd kinds
20:48:03 <ais523> I don't know the xkcd kind of knight/knave door
20:49:13 <ehird> ais523: there is a third person
20:49:16 <ehird> who stabs people who ask tricky questions
20:49:21 <ehird> also, there is no way out.
20:50:04 <ais523> anyway, the question "If I asked you if this is a safe door to go through, what would you say?" is a good trick to solve most of the puzzles of that nature
20:50:25 <ais523> and isn't even exactly a tricky question, people do that sort of thing in RL on occasion
20:50:34 <ehird> you always get the right answer, right?
20:50:43 <ais523> because if they would lie, they lie twice
20:50:56 <ehird> i always thought of really complex solutions to those
20:55:37 <Sgeo> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html
20:58:11 <oerjan> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0565.html
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21:00:09 <ehird> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=807#comic
21:10:24 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/comics/comments/7b9gb/be_careful_what_you_wish_for/c066k4b
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21:29:13 -!- ais524 has changed nick to ais523.
21:29:31 -!- comex has changed nick to ais20c.
21:29:40 <ais523> sorry, I accidentally got trapped in a room with some unary operators
21:29:46 <ais523> good thing I didn't hit the bitwise-NOT
21:29:54 -!- ais20c has changed nick to comex.
21:30:30 <oerjan> a hex! burn the witch!
21:36:16 <Slereah> And what do you burn apart from witches?
21:39:00 <oerjan> books, small animals, yews...
21:40:35 <ais523> CDs of open-source operating systems, mostly
21:41:16 <oerjan> that's something everyone can agree on
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22:33:02 <ais523> oklopol: what are you winking at out of the blue?
22:33:41 <Slereah> He's signaling his presence to the gay male, psygnisfive
22:33:59 <ais523> in just two characters? that's pretty golfy
22:34:57 <olsner> gay golf? that's a new one
22:35:22 <Slereah> Let's do a "Hello, sailor!" in gay golf
22:36:58 <olsner> I don't think you could get much shorter than oklopol's ";)" though
22:37:22 <oklopol> i just read 3 pages of random bash content, and you made me laugh more without even trying.
22:37:27 <Slereah> Isn't there an unicode penis character?
22:37:31 <ais523> oklopol: bash is working again?
22:37:47 <oklopol> don't know about again, but it's working, yes
22:38:17 <ais523> it was broken for ages
22:39:00 <Slereah> Bash is pretty infuriating on one point
22:39:10 <Slereah> The number one quote is incredibly lame
22:39:56 <oklopol> we've done that multiple times in here, often for multiple pages.
22:40:15 <oklopol> didn't know that was on top
22:41:22 <oklopol> the next ones are pretty good
22:41:45 <Slereah> For some reason, the top quotes are meg
22:43:51 <oklopol> dunno, those are at least theoretically funny, although i didn't exactly laught at them; most of bash it complete utter bullshit that makes me want to eat coal and poop diamonds
22:44:25 <Slereah> Well, then again, is there any moment when you don't feel like that
22:48:10 <oklopol> ohh looks like it's time to sleap
22:57:38 <jayCampbell> http://shup.com/Shup/78118/screencap-Unnamed-document-4-Inkscape-108104145651.png
22:58:26 <Slereah> Much better than that lazy bird logo by that talentless hack
22:58:41 <Slereah> Most esolangs lack a good logo
22:58:47 <jayCampbell> this happens when i'm in boring conference calls
22:59:41 <jayCampbell> a languages logo should not have a larger file size than its compiler, documentation and all known example code
23:02:56 <ehird> Slereah: Much better than that lazy bird logo by that talentless hack
23:02:56 <ehird> [22:58] Slereah: YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE
23:03:23 <Slereah> I tried to make a real logo
23:03:31 <Slereah> From the silhouette of a mockingbird
23:03:35 <Slereah> But I am also talentless :(
23:03:50 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:07:40 <ehird> jayCampbell: its townsberg
23:08:00 <Slereah> DELETE THIS PICTURE, IT IS WRONG
23:11:53 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:23:33 <Slereah> Townsvilole is the sister city of Townsberg
23:23:40 <Slereah> But they program in Brainfuck
23:23:54 <jayCampbell> http://shup.com/Shup/78119/screencap-CDocuments-and-SettingsjayDesktop3code-programming-language-logo.svg-Inkscape-108104152316.png
23:24:07 <jayCampbell> i was going for Jeans and wound up with American McDonald's
23:25:19 <jayCampbell> can't help but round out this guy's esolang logo collection
23:25:32 <Slereah> Why would I want to own the logo of a language you made up?
23:33:55 <ehird> jayCampbell: did the townsville people vote obama or mccain?
23:34:01 <ehird> or Mayorpopple The Third
23:34:12 <ehird> Comedy option: Ron Paul
23:35:01 <Slereah> The comedy option is this : http://www.objectivistparty.us/
23:40:33 <ehird> Slereah: write-in ron paul, DUH
23:40:38 <ehird> but yes, objectivist party is hilarious
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23:55:56 <ehird> So. Who here is able to vote in the US, and who voted? :-P
00:03:02 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
00:14:56 <jayCampbell> unfortunately there was only one vehicle to escort voters to the polls
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01:13:42 -!- GregorR has set topic: 270 electoral votes to win. OBAMA 77 ----- MCCAIN 34.
01:13:49 -!- Asztal has quit ("@").
01:29:26 -!- GregorR has set topic: 270 electoral votes to win. OBAMA 81 ----- MCCAIN 34.
01:38:28 -!- lament has set topic: 270 electoral votes to win. PALIN 81 ----- MCCAIN 34.
01:41:50 -!- GregorR has set topic: 270 electoral votes to win. OBAMA 102 ----- MCCAIN 34.
01:59:03 <ehird> heh. hi GregorR /lament
02:01:21 -!- GregorR has set topic: 270 electoral votes to win. CNN says: OBAMA 102 ----- MCCAIN 43.
02:02:13 <ehird> usa elections amirite
02:03:12 <GregorR> Some of us are Americans :P
02:04:08 -!- GregorR has set topic: 270 electoral votes to win. CNN says: OBAMA 174 ----- MCCAIN 49.
02:06:34 <pikhq> I didn't vote, but for one simple reason...
02:06:45 <pikhq> My absentee ballot came in just in time to mock me.
02:06:57 <pikhq> "Haha, you won't get me in on time!"
02:14:25 -!- GregorR has set topic: 270 electoral votes to win. CNN says: OBAMA 174 ----- MCCAIN 64.
02:22:18 <ehird> pikhq: DID YOU VOTE FOR GregorR
02:23:58 <ehird> AND LOST THE ELECTION :( (nah)
02:24:03 <Slereah> It's going to be so awesome
02:24:44 <Slereah> http://mfrost.typepad.com/cute_overload/images/2008/11/04/herrings_all_the_way.jpg
02:26:14 -!- GregorR has set topic: 270 electoral votes to win. CNN says: OBAMA 174 ----- MCCAIN 69.
02:37:46 -!- GregorR has set topic: 270 electoral votes to win. CNN says: OBAMA 194 ----- MCCAIN 69.
02:41:24 -!- GregorR has set topic: 270 electoral votes to win. CNN/Google: OBAMA 194/175 ----- MCCAIN 69/61.
02:46:16 <ehird> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/us_elections_2008/7697829.stm
02:46:22 <ehird> it's the bbc, the bbc are cool
02:46:55 <Slereah> The BBC is a pretty cool guy
02:49:44 <ehird> c'mon obama, just win, kthx
02:49:48 -!- GregorR has set topic: 270 electoral votes to win. CNN/Google: OBAMA 199/195 ----- MCCAIN 78/70.
02:51:02 -!- Slereah has set topic: 270 electoral votes to win. CNN/Google: SHRIMP 199/195 ----- HERRING 78/70.
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02:51:52 <Slereah> I love how the BBC has a color for 3rd parties
02:52:02 -!- lament has set topic: 270 erectoral votes to win. CNN/Google: SHRIMP 199/195 ----- HERRING 78/70.
02:52:03 <Slereah> Like a third party is ever going to have anything anywhere
02:52:19 -!- ehird has set topic: 270 erections required to win..
02:53:02 -!- lament has set topic: 270 erections required to win. CNN 199/195 ----- GOOGLE 78/70.
02:58:53 <lament> yes, huge erections in america
02:59:02 <lament> seems like CNN is winning
02:59:27 <Slereah> Don't blame me, I voted for Rick Astley
03:07:04 <psygnisfive> http://fora.tv/2008/02/19/Neil_DeGrasse_Tyson_Death_by_Black_Hole
03:07:09 -!- GregorR has set topic: 270 electoral votes to win. CNN/Google: OBAMA 207/202 ----- MCCAIN 89/75.
03:21:48 -!- GregorR has set topic: 270 electoral votes to win. Everyone agrees that Obama has at LEAST 200 (even FOX!), and there are 73 freebies for Obama on the west coast. In short: OBAMA WINS!.
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04:20:15 -!- ehird has set topic: Obama won..
04:20:19 -!- ehird has set topic: Obama won. Fuck yeah..
04:31:43 -!- pikhq has set topic: McCain's conceded, rather than recount. Fuck yeah. | Obama won. Fuck yeah..
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06:15:13 <oklopol> i refuse to know what all this commotion was about.
06:16:36 <oklopol> mccain? well i know what a *cane* is. osama was the tower guy. these fuck yeahs are probably just science fiction
07:01:17 <GregorR> http://www.conservapedia.com/Barack_Obama // Hahahaha, this is so over-the-top-libelous it's not so much offensive as surreal :P
07:18:19 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: what does this mean "which most Christians would not retain."
07:21:20 <Jiminy_Cricket> Most Christians would not keep that as their middle name
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07:36:33 <bsmntbombdood> it sounds like most christians would not retain hussien
07:37:33 <psygnisfive> but that sort of construction is quite common in english.
07:38:35 <Jiminy_Cricket> There's nothign grammatically wrong with the way it is written.
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14:32:15 <ehird> lol that conservapedia article
14:51:30 -!- ehird has set topic: Obama won. Fuck yeah. | But Prop 8 passed. lol@usa.
14:58:51 -!- jix has joined.
14:59:44 <oklopol> i see, and passing would be which way exactly?
15:00:43 <ehird> oklopol: a while back (ages ago), california allowed gay marraige
15:00:49 <ehird> prop 8 has passed, and it's reversing that
15:00:56 <ehird> http://www.kcra.com/california-proposition-8/index.html
15:01:38 <oklopol> lol@usa kinda gave away they removed gays and not the other way
15:02:01 <oklopol> but as i didn't remember they existed in the first place
15:19:42 <ehird> ITT: UK government surveillence reaches the internet http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3384743/Internet-black-boxes-to-record-every-email-and-website-visit.html
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15:51:45 * ehird was awake at 5am yesterday x_x
15:52:59 <oklopol> my sleep cycle is pretty normal nowadays :<
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16:39:09 <ehird> so im wholesale ripping off jayCampbell
16:39:14 <ehird> and writing a brainfuck-program-generator
16:39:24 <ehird> think i could breed programs to hello world?
16:39:41 <ais523> that was managed for Malbolge once, BF seems like it would be easier
16:40:23 <ehird> i'll just generate random programs for now
16:40:28 <ehird> I think I could rip the interpreter out of bff.c
16:40:34 <ehird> although then I'd have to code t he generator in c
16:40:38 <ehird> it'd be nice and fast but ..
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17:11:18 <oerjan> Californians will burn in hell for passing Prop 8. This will be nicely ironic.
17:12:35 <ehird> oerjan, using capitals?
17:12:53 <ehird> psygnisfive: whaddya mean what
17:13:13 <ehird> 'cause prop 8 is evil, presumably
17:13:54 <ehird> i don't see how you can not see what he's talking about?
17:14:01 <oerjan> ehird: tongue too much in cheek, affects capitalization
17:14:01 <ehird> it's plain, simple english... do you have troubles with it?
17:14:10 <ehird> oerjan: you might wanna get that checked out
17:14:26 <oerjan> psygnisfive: the irony is the theory that God vehemently disagrees with fundamentalist Christians
17:14:46 <oerjan> but _still_ burns people in hell
17:30:01 <ehird> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ajohnhart/sets/72157608561494488/ creepy
17:34:54 <oerjan> barack obama, now as grey goo
17:36:45 <oerjan> there was an old meaning?
17:38:59 <ehird> http://colony14.net/id53.html
17:39:04 <ehird> "November 4 is getting close, and unless something dramatic happens it looks like Barack Hussein (“I am not a Kenyan”) Obama, Jr. (alias Barry “I am not an Indonesian” Soetoro) will become the next President of the United States."
17:39:26 <jayCampbell> is that any worse than being mindlessly american?
17:39:39 <ehird> barack hussein i am not a kenyan obama, jr.
17:39:44 <ehird> barry i am not an indonesian soetoro
17:40:05 <ais523> incidentally, anyone else here noticed that Obama seems to use British English not American English?
17:40:34 <pikhq> ais523: Is that such a *bad* thing?
17:40:44 <ehird> ais523: he seems to give off more of a british vibe than american, for some reason
17:40:49 <ehird> (The reason is that he's a communist terrorist.)
17:40:56 <ais523> psygnisfive: he said "autumn" rather than "fall" referring to the season in his victory speech
17:41:35 <psygnisfive> while british english exclusively uses autumn, and fall isnt even acceptable
17:41:40 <ais523> also he doesn't have much of an american accent
17:41:41 <ehird> FALL IS UnACCEPTABLE
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17:45:39 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cgi-bin/poll.pl?a=7
17:47:35 <oerjan> while i voted for Obama, i do agree the Allosaurus was probably the second best in that election
17:47:57 -!- ehird has set topic: Ron Paul won. Fuck yeah..
17:48:21 <ehird> see the internet is always right
17:48:48 <oerjan> ehird: is that a quote of something?
17:49:04 <ehird> oerjan: what, ron paul?
17:49:24 <ehird> oerjan: ron paul was the official presidential candidate of the annoying internet for the longest time
17:49:32 <ehird> especially reddit&digg
17:49:43 <ehird> no, i put that there when obama won
17:50:51 <oerjan> that needs to be an acronym
17:50:59 <ehird> doesn't trip off the tounge
17:52:02 <psygnisfive> "Looking ahead to 2010, House and Senate Democrats will be jealously eyeing Obama’s e-mail lists and technology secrets"
17:52:14 <psygnisfive> obama apparently operates a high tech research facility
17:53:19 <oerjan> i should imagine the republicans would be eyeing them even more jealously
17:54:18 <psygnisfive> http://daringfireball.net/2008/11/the_fantastic_monument
17:54:27 <ehird> psygnisfive: yeah 'cause mccain supporters are way more rational
17:54:31 <oerjan> i'm sure they would love to use his funding method
17:55:11 <ehird> psygnisfive: there's nothing that inherently makes obama/mccain supporters irrational, although mccain supporters have a better chance due to the candidate they support...
17:55:20 <ehird> i think it's just a case of that most people are pretty stupid
17:55:48 <psygnisfive> im just tired of hearing people pour their hopes and dreams into this one person
17:56:09 <ehird> give them some slack, they've had bush for 8 years
17:56:57 <psygnisfive> I VOTED FOR OBAMA BECAUSE OBAMA IS FOR CHANGE
17:57:08 <psygnisfive> and when i asked him what sort of change he was like
17:57:42 <oklopol> i just ask python who to vote, it knows every time
17:57:52 <ehird> oklopol: who did it say
17:58:04 -!- ehird has left (?).
17:58:14 <oklopol> i doubt you care much about the elections i've voted in
17:58:14 -!- ehird has joined.
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17:59:03 <oklopol> i doubt you care much about the elections i've voted in
17:59:41 <ehird> oklopol: run it on the us election
18:01:09 <psygnisfive> we should add more stuff to the competition
18:05:39 <ehird> oklopol: what algorithm
18:05:54 <ehird> oklopol: i was hoping you'd have an awesomely okoy algorithm to do it
18:06:04 <oklopol> i'm aiming for that @ next election
18:06:21 <oklopol> it's just i decided this is my way to vote like one day before the election i voted in.
18:09:13 <oerjan> random voting seems a little weak. what you want for true chaos is something like geohashing for politics. then many people will vote the same way, but randomly.
18:10:15 <oerjan> that will _really_ screw up the predictions
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18:31:44 <ehird> no, but i sould be
18:32:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I have been trying to find out how to get length of an unicode string in python, in chars not bytes, for about half an hour without luck
18:32:24 <AnMaster> and since I know you are good at python
18:32:44 <ehird> len(x) = length of x, for any x where that makes sense
18:32:51 <ehird> calls "magic method" x.__len__()
18:33:40 <AnMaster> ah yes I did look at the unicode and string class docs without luck. thanks a lot
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18:36:32 <asiekierka> Well, what can a Polish foreigner say about the US election.
18:36:54 <asiekierka> Someguy won, that's fine, Someotherguy lost, that's fine, BUT WHAT ISN'T FINE IS...
18:37:09 <asiekierka> The US election was talked about more here than our Polish election!
18:37:19 <asiekierka> No-one cared about the polish election
18:37:35 <psygnisfive> thats because poland isnt the worlds largest supporter of international terrorism.
18:38:33 <ehird> also because nobody cares about poland
18:38:39 <ehird> wow, i just got an idea that is easy and could work and would be cool
18:39:11 <ehird> psygnisfive: i want to quickly hack up a test of it first to maake sure it might work
18:39:15 <ehird> i shall tell imminently.
18:39:29 <ehird> also asiekierka just dequalified himself
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18:40:16 <AnMaster> ehird, what happened to optbot?
18:40:21 <ehird> AnMaster: not here? huh.
18:40:36 <ehird> stupid unstable POS
18:40:45 <ehird> optbot is awesome.
18:40:48 <ehird> everyone loves optbot.
18:41:00 <psygnisfive> not as annoying as SeppBot in #compling but
18:41:01 <ehird> nobody else agrees with you.
18:41:08 <ehird> so tough shit, i'm restarting it
18:41:21 <ehird> thank you asiekierka.
18:41:27 -!- optbot has joined.
18:41:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I love you.
18:41:48 <optbot> ehird: it stars 'oko' and 'kok' this one does
18:42:56 <AnMaster> also topic, why Ron Paul of all the possible choices?
18:43:07 <ehird> AnMaster: because ron paul is the Comedy Internet Option
18:43:28 <ehird> he was all over reddit/digg/whatever
18:44:06 <AnMaster> ah ok, I usually don't read such sites, however I wonders, why did they focus on him?
18:44:16 <ehird> 'cuz everybody loved him.
18:44:23 <ehird> 'cuz he was all OH CONSTITUTION
18:44:40 <GregorR> Also he's a gold-standard-moron, and that's always funny :P
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18:53:58 <ais523> haha, that's really funny
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18:54:24 <ais523> asiekierka wrote an infiniloop in #IRP, I copied it to fungot over here to figure out what it did, and then asiekierka quit...
18:54:25 <fungot> ais523: no one will ever have to consider it trivial to extract the information automatically declared) 13 lines. unfortunately, that foundation is often incomplete.
18:54:54 <ais523> yes, because it was trying to run an infiniloop was the implication
18:55:09 <ais523> quite a few of the bots in here used to /quit if you infinilooped them
18:55:14 <ais523> although that doesn't happen nowadays
18:56:38 <ais523> +ul (-)(-)((:S(|)S:(~)~a*^*)~a*^:^):^
18:56:39 <thutubot> -|--|---|-----|--------|-------------|---------------------|----------------------------------|------------------------------------------------------- ...too much output!
18:57:07 <ais523> ehird: I think there are shorter ways, that was just idiomatic
18:57:47 <ais523> asiekierka: Unlambda or Underload?
18:58:02 <ais523> do you know lambda calculus?
18:58:22 <ais523> probably it's best to learn that first, or getting your head around Unlambda is basically impossible, so I'll teach you now
18:58:34 <ais523> it's more an esolang basis than something you're taught at school
18:58:50 <asiekierka> {{if anyone wants to comment, feel free!}}
18:58:58 <ais523> basically, in imperative langs like BF, you write down the commands you want in the order they happen, and you have things like loops and ifs to make them happen in a different order
18:59:05 <ais523> and you have variables to store data
18:59:14 <asiekierka> In lambda calculus, you don't have variables...?
18:59:29 <ais523> the only variables you have in lambda calculus are the params to functions
18:59:30 <asiekierka> And the result of the code itself is the output, right?
18:59:40 <ais523> and in "pure" lambda calculus, yes
18:59:53 <asiekierka> Unlambda includes an output function though
18:59:56 <ais523> although some lambda-calculus-based langs like Unlambda have side-effect output functions
19:00:31 <ais523> it's based on the concept of functions, first of all
19:00:36 <oerjan> +ul (-|)(~:S(-)~*~:^):^
19:00:38 <thutubot> -|--|---|----|-----|------|-------|--------|---------|----------|-----------|------------|-------------|--------------|---------------| ...too much output!
19:00:44 <ais523> if you want to be able to store data, get another functoin and pass it as a param
19:00:51 <oerjan> oh wait that was fibonacci
19:00:52 <ais523> and you can make functions at will
19:00:54 <ais523> now, the tricky parts:
19:01:04 <ais523> you can generate functions at runtime, from templates
19:01:09 <ais523> and you can pass functions as arguments
19:01:34 <asiekierka> what do you mean by "generate functions at runtime, from templates"?
19:01:40 <ais523> let's do 99bob in a hypothetical high-level lambda calculus lang, to give you some idea of how it works
19:01:54 <ais523> asiekierka: basically, they're like functions but with things missing
19:02:04 <ais523> numbers, functions, or other fill-in-the-gaps stuff
19:02:39 <ais523> well, to print one bottle of beer, you could do a function like this (hypothetical syntax)
19:03:13 <ais523> lambda(a) {print a, " bottles of beer on the wall,\n", a, "bottles of beer,\ntake one down, pass it around,\n", a-1, "bottles of beer on the wall.\n"}
19:03:33 <ais523> nice and simple, basically the same as in an imperative lang
19:03:36 <ais523> the only difference is we have the lambda operator here that creates a function with no name
19:03:41 <ais523> and we can pass it around like a variable
19:03:55 <asiekierka> So we can repeat it 99 times, and here we go, it's the 99bob program
19:04:11 <ais523> yes, 99 times with different arguments, but that's normally considered cheating when writing 99bob
19:04:19 <ais523> you want to use some kind of loop, normally
19:04:36 <ais523> there are no looping constructs; in an imperative lang, you'd use recursion
19:04:49 <asiekierka> The code is some kind of thing which pastes the var 99 times, and executes it
19:04:52 <ais523> something like function b(x) {lambda(a){...}(x); b(x-1);}
19:05:00 <ais523> that doesn't work in lambda calculs because the functions don't have names
19:05:17 <ais523> you can still do recursion, but it's a bit trickier
19:05:35 <psygnisfive> recursion is possible in LC, just not conveniently
19:05:45 <AnMaster> ehird, another quick python question: I looked more closely this time, I need to check if a string contain a #, I guess the __contains__ is what I want, (looked at help(unicode)). But I'm not sure, and what is the "special" way to call the __contains__ one then?
19:05:56 <ais523> suppose I have lambda(f,x){f(f,x);}, which is a function I'll call sii for reasons which become clear later
19:06:09 <ehird> AnMaster: '#' in string
19:06:11 <psygnisfive> infact, a recursive version would probably look very YC.
19:06:11 <ehird> AnMaster: I think you should read a basic tutorial.
19:06:14 <ais523> now, if I apply that with a function and an arg as its first argumetn
19:06:23 <AnMaster> ehird, you are probably right :)
19:06:25 <ais523> *a function as its first arg, an arg as its second
19:06:29 <ehird> AnMaster: try http://diveintopython.org/
19:06:41 <ais523> it'll give the function /itself/ as an /argument/
19:06:56 <AnMaster> hopefully I don't have to code too much in this, I can't say I like the language, but there was no alternative
19:07:19 <asiekierka> So, it basically runs itself by carrying the params
19:07:32 <psygnisfive> ais' version is basically it. if sii has a conditional recursion within it, e.g. if x = 0 ... else sii(sii,x-1)
19:07:35 <ais523> so, lambda(f,x){f(f,x)}(lambda(b,a){lambda(x){...}(a); b(a-1)})(99)
19:07:47 <ais523> all the information you need, you carry in params
19:07:50 <ehird> AnMaster: What are you using it for?
19:07:54 <ais523> if a function needs to loop, it needs to call itself
19:07:57 <ais523> so it needs itself as a param
19:08:09 <ais523> (and the ... prints out one line of bottle of beer)
19:08:16 <AnMaster> ehird, there is the bot framework pywikipediabot, I needed to code a custom wikipedia bot to use on a wiki I edit
19:08:29 <ehird> AnMaster: There are bot frameworks for other langs
19:08:38 <ehird> But Python is good, so. :p
19:08:55 <AnMaster> ehird, ah but I already use several scripts for pywikipediabot, changing wouldn't be that easy.
19:09:04 <ais523> ok, that's basically a high-level language using lambda calculus for control flow
19:09:09 <ais523> Unlambda is very low-level, though
19:09:18 <ais523> so there are several changes that need to be made
19:09:26 <ais523> first, Unlambda doesn't allow functions with more than one arg
19:09:29 <ais523> but there's a trick to get around that
19:09:43 <ais523> consider this trivial function: lambda (a,b) {a+b}
19:09:53 <ais523> asiekierka: that might work, but there's a cleverer way
19:10:03 <ais523> remember you can generate functions from templates?
19:10:18 <ais523> I can change lambda (a,b) {a+b} to lambda(a) { lambda(b) {a+b} }
19:10:22 <psygnisfive> multiple arguments are abstract anyway you know.
19:10:33 <psygnisfive> lambda(a,b) is as good as what ais just said
19:10:33 <ais523> say I call that function with the arg 2
19:10:45 <ais523> psygnisfive: yes, I'm trying to explain why though
19:10:50 <ehird> psygnisfive: shut up
19:10:54 <ehird> ais523 is trying to explain the basics
19:10:59 <ais523> then, I get lambda(b) {2+b}
19:11:00 <ehird> you're just adding confusion on to that.
19:11:30 <ais523> then if we give 5 to the resulting function, we get 7
19:11:54 <ais523> instead of calling it as (lambda (a,b) {a+b})(2,5) with 2 args, it's called as (lambda(a) { lambda(b) {a+b} })(2)(5)
19:11:57 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:12:15 * ais523 waits for asiekierka's connection to fix itself
19:13:08 -!- asiekierka has joined.
19:13:20 <ais523> <ais523> instead of calling it as (lambda (a,b) {a+b})(2,5) with 2 args, it's called as (lambda(a) { lambda(b) {a+b} })(2)(5)
19:13:31 <ais523> I stopped once I noticed you leave
19:13:40 <ais523> so what we have here is a function which returns a function
19:13:55 <ais523> you give it the first arg, it returns a function that takes the second arg and gives you the result
19:14:07 <ais523> btw, Haskell is based on that principle, as well as a few others, it's called "currying"
19:14:38 <ehird> asiekierka: note that this means that you can't have variable-argument functions
19:14:46 <ehird> unless you can tell when you have the last arg
19:14:47 <ais523> also, in Unlambda you don't have a semicolon operator or anything like that to combine statements
19:14:50 <ehird> e.g. if you have to give it a DONE arg
19:14:55 <ehird> then it can return the final func or itself
19:15:04 <ais523> ehird: a bit advanced, but correct
19:15:13 <ais523> this is just to make it more annoying I think
19:15:17 <ehird> ais523: i tried to say it simply :p
19:15:22 <ais523> in Unlambda, absolutely everything returns a result
19:15:31 <ais523> and things won't run until their result is available
19:15:46 <ais523> in Unlambda, everything takes one arg too
19:15:53 <ais523> even things that would normally take zero
19:15:54 <oerjan> ehird: i've once been pondering using d as a special marker for variable-argument functions in unlambda
19:15:57 <ais523> .a prints a, and returns its arg
19:16:33 <ehird> asiekierka: needs `
19:16:34 <ais523> not quite, you need to apply the functions in the right order
19:16:37 <ehird> you can't do funcarg
19:16:41 <ehird> you have to do `funcarg
19:16:46 <ehird> but yes, what ais523 said too
19:17:23 <oerjan> ehird: in my interpreter i instead used an explicit argument count (since you need to count the right number of `s anyhow), but an ending d should have been possible
19:17:24 <ais523> `r`.d`.l`.r`.o`.w`.o`.l`.l`.e`.hi
19:17:33 <ais523> in order to run r, it has to calculate its argument first
19:17:44 <asiekierka> The other way also works, but is utterly stupid
19:17:47 <ais523> which is .d applied to something, it has to calculate /its/ argument first
19:17:53 <ais523> until you end up with `.hi
19:17:56 <ais523> which prints h and returns i
19:18:08 <ais523> identity function, I could have put anything there
19:18:15 <ais523> it's just a placeholder as I need to give the function some argument
19:18:38 <ais523> whereas your program prints hlloworld\n
19:19:07 <asiekierka> Tested in the original unlambda interpreter
19:19:10 <ais523> it prints helloworld without the final newline
19:19:19 <ais523> it's a bit complicated how though
19:19:24 <ais523> it first prints h and returns .e
19:19:26 <ehird> ``````````.h.e.l.l.o.w.o.r.l.d`ri
19:19:35 <ais523> then that .e prints e and returns .l
19:19:50 <ais523> so yes, ```````````.h.e.l.l.o.w.o.r.l.dri should work
19:20:09 <ais523> each letter prints itself then returns the next letter, which is then run with the letter after that as its arg and so on
19:20:23 <ais523> so it's more complicated than my version, but has the advantage of running forwards in the source
19:20:40 <ais523> now, the major feature of Unlambda is that despite being based on lambda calculus, it doesn't actually have lambdas
19:20:50 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asie[away].
19:20:51 <ais523> and ok, I'll wait for you to come back
19:23:13 <oerjan> ais523: variable argument functions in unlambda is not mad(der than the rest of the language), it's in fact the only way to get really compact lists
19:23:15 -!- asie[away] has changed nick to asiekierka.
19:23:18 <lament> that's cause it's based on combinatory logic, not lambda calculus
19:23:40 <ais523> oerjan: it makes sense in the context of Unlambda, just not on any other level
19:23:51 <ais523> asiekierka: basically, you have three functions s k i
19:24:01 <ais523> and which you can generate any lambda function out of
19:24:08 <ais523> i is very simple, it's lambda(x) {x}
19:24:29 <ais523> and instead of just saying what k and s are, it's probably easier to explain where they come from
19:24:53 <ais523> suppose you have lambda(x) { lambda(y) { x(y) } }
19:25:04 <ais523> and you want to get rid of the lambdas
19:25:31 <ais523> let me think a moment...
19:26:05 <ais523> the x in the inside isn't affected by the value of y at all
19:26:18 <ais523> so if we want to write it as a function of y, it would be lambda(y) {x}
19:26:33 <ais523> the y is irrelevant here, and quite a lot of the time in Unlambda you need a way to get functions like that
19:26:38 <ais523> that's where k comes in
19:26:49 <ais523> k(x) returns a function which always returns x no matter what its argument
19:26:55 <ais523> so k(x) = lambda(y) {x}
19:27:11 <ais523> now, y as a function of y is also very easy
19:27:18 <ais523> it's lambda(y) {y} which is i
19:27:48 <ais523> so, what's x(y) as a function of y? it's lambda(y) {x(y)} obviously, but Unlambda doesn't let you use lambdas
19:28:01 <ais523> this is where s comes in
19:28:22 <ais523> s(a)(b)(y) is (a(y))(b(y))
19:28:37 <ais523> in other words, suppose we need to calculate x(y)
19:28:52 <ais523> and we have both x and y as functions of y, which we do
19:28:58 <ais523> x as a function of y is k(x), y as a function of y is i
19:29:04 <ais523> so I can do s(k(x))(i)(y)
19:29:24 <asiekierka> And output their result as the final result
19:29:33 <ais523> it'll do k(x)(y) and i(y), and apply one to the other
19:30:10 <ais523> so if s(k(x))(i)(y) is x(y), then s(k(x))(i) must be lambda(y) {x(y)}
19:30:17 <ais523> so that's got rid of one of our lambdas
19:30:36 <ais523> in Unlambda notation, btw, this would be ``s`kxi
19:30:43 <ais523> where x isn't unlambda at all
19:30:54 <ais523> to get rid of the other one, we can follow the same rules again
19:31:01 <ais523> which I haven't stated yet, but implied
19:31:06 <ais523> there's a mechanical way you can change things...
19:31:33 <ais523> f changes to `kf for any f which doesn't involve the thing we're lambdaing
19:31:38 <ais523> and the thing we are lambdaing changes to i
19:31:59 <ais523> so ``s`kxi changes to ``s``s`ks``s`kki`ki
19:32:19 <ais523> which is how you write lambda(x) { lambda(y) { x(y) } } in Unlambda
19:32:37 <ais523> this is actually enough information to be able to write Unlambda programs, most of them are just compiled directly like that
19:32:59 <ais523> generally speaking, Unlambda's described as not all that hard to write if you know what you're doing (due to that transformation), but basically impossible to read
19:33:27 <ais523> Unlambda has a few other operators just to make things a lot harder
19:33:44 <ais523> there's c, which gives imperative programmers nightmares, and d, which gives functional programmers nightmares
19:33:51 <ais523> and yes, but v2 is just to allow I/O
19:34:01 <ais523> also v, but that's just shorthand and not particularly interesting
19:34:12 <asiekierka> ais523: btw, do you want v2 original interpreter's EXE?
19:34:24 <ais523> (by the way, i can be written as ``skk but that's more coincidence than anything particularly interesting IMO)
19:34:42 <ehird> asiekierka: ais523 uses linux
19:34:43 <ais523> asiekierka: I run Linux not Windows, I could run it but there wouldn't be much point
19:34:52 <ehird> so do most people in here :p
19:34:52 <asiekierka> (useful for obfuscation... if anyone would ever want to do it)
19:34:55 <ais523> besides I think I have the V2 interpreter
19:35:05 <ais523> the Linux version, though
19:35:09 <ais523> not sure if it's the original
19:35:23 <asiekierka> and i have the Windows version; compiled by Cygwin; with the garbage collector
19:35:28 <ais523> and the ``skk trick mostly impresses people who like to get the number of commands down
19:35:39 <ais523> ah, I can't run Cygwin executables here, it doesn't play well with Wine
19:36:19 <asiekierka> Which part of hell do you want: the d part or the c part? {{unlambda commands}}
19:36:32 <lament> i is clearly more basic than s
19:36:43 <lament> so i deserves to be a builtin
19:36:44 <ais523> asiekierka: c is neat, elegant, and basically impossible to explain
19:36:45 <oerjan> d is not strictly necessary, while c is necessary for I/O
19:36:52 <lament> and therefore your builtins aren't orthogonal
19:37:00 <ais523> oerjan: c is only necessary for I/O because the I/O model is stupid
19:37:13 <asiekierka> So who wants to go to the c part of hell
19:37:32 <oerjan> not the I/O model per se, but the choice of booleans
19:37:32 <ais523> asiekierka: I'll try to explain c in one line, then everyone who doesn't know what it does already can go wtf
19:37:41 <oerjan> and i think of it as evil, not stupid
19:38:02 <lament> so more like Obama than Bush
19:38:05 <oerjan> and one of the best decisions
19:38:29 <ais523> if you call c with an argument, then it runs the argument but gives it an argument which is a magical construct called a continuation, and if the continuation ever gets run it goes back in time to when c was called and returns the argument given to the continuation from c, rather than running c's argument
19:39:15 <ais523> oerjan: ok, it's an esolang, deliberately choosing a choice of booleans that need something as crazy as c to work with is very eso
19:39:34 <ais523> asiekierka: I'll help you along
19:39:58 <ais523> it helps slightly if you imagine c as Unlambda's version of goto, it completely messes up the control flow mechanism
19:40:20 <ais523> basically, if you call a function, it can return normally
19:40:32 <ais523> but in imperative languages, you normally have a return statement that lets you break out of the middle of a function
19:40:45 <ais523> Unlambda doesn't have a return statement to break out of functions directly
19:40:48 <asiekierka> I think `ci = `ci(`*i) = `i(`*i) = a deliberate pile of nothingness, huh?
19:40:51 <ais523> but c lets you generate such statements
19:42:05 <ais523> so in an awful mix of notations and paradigms, suppose I do `c lambda(r) {while(true){print "press q to quit\n"; if(getkey()=='q') r(0); }}
19:42:31 <ais523> it's pretty clear here that c is being used to generate a return statement, r in this case
19:42:52 <ais523> and the place you put the c allows you to choose which function to return from
19:42:59 <asiekierka> ais523: Did i work with c right, in my example?
19:43:08 <ais523> I'm not certain I understand your notation
19:43:26 <ehird> ais523: its standard...
19:43:32 <asiekierka> (`*i) is the Esolangs wiki's continuation notation
19:43:35 <ehird> (...) = continuation with * = the thing pased to the continuationn
19:43:59 <ais523> I never really tried to get my head around notations for imagining continuations, I find them much easier to imagine than to write down
19:44:49 <asiekierka> I prefer analyzing how I think it does it, and then comparing it with how it works
19:46:19 <ais523> `ci returns a continuation which returns the continuation's argument instead of the continuation
19:47:18 <ais523> the main problematicness in continuation-related thinking processes is the go-back-in-time thing (btw, I'm planning to use them for Feather, they're the perfect choice for it)
19:59:11 <ais523> I think asiekierka's beginning to see why I said c was basically impossible to explain
20:01:58 <AnMaster> what has C got to do with unlambda?
20:02:16 <ais523> AnMaster: c the Unlambda command, not C the language
20:02:32 <AnMaster> is C "get current continuation"?
20:03:04 -!- ais523 has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | there's c, which gives imperative programmers nightmares, and d, which gives functional programmers nightmares.
20:03:18 <ais523> it's call with current continuation, almost the same
20:03:25 <ais523> `ci would be get current continuation
20:03:41 <AnMaster> well I don't understand call/cc but I'm beginning to
20:03:57 <AnMaster> ais523, also what is d in the topic
20:04:09 <ais523> AnMaster: nope, the Unlambda command
20:04:18 <AnMaster> ais523, and what does that d do?
20:04:21 <ais523> it means something along the lines of "don't evaluate this yet"
20:04:40 <ais523> it causes something to be evaluated the next time its value becomes relevant, rather than immediately
20:04:58 <AnMaster> requesting lazy evaluation on a specific bit?
20:05:43 <ais523> yes, it's like case-by-case lazy evaluatoino
20:06:01 <ais523> but considering that d can be passed around as a function argument just like anything else in Unlambda, it causes absolute chaos
20:06:41 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:06:47 <AnMaster> but it doesn't actually sound hard to understand
20:06:56 <ais523> no, it's probably easier to understand than c
20:07:00 <ais523> much harder to /use/, though
20:07:02 -!- asiekierka has joined.
20:07:23 <AnMaster> ais523, yes... how would it be used?
20:07:42 <ais523> normally to make side effects happen later rather than now, it shortens the program a lot
20:08:15 <oerjan> asiekierka: actually `ci = `i(*) = (*)
20:08:17 <ais523> otherwise you have to put in lots of ``s`kk stuff in order to cause the command that would cause the side effect to be constructed at the last moment rather than running earlier
20:08:36 <asiekierka> Is there any other worthwhile esolang than befunge, brainf**k, piet, underload and unlambda?
20:09:04 <ehird> also, popular is irrelevant
20:11:41 <oklopol> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
20:13:01 <oklopol> most of the interesting ones are incredibly hard to program in.
20:13:12 <asiekierka> And the 5 seconds is the time it takes from clicking the link to showing the page
20:13:38 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/jitfunge$ build/jitfunge test.b98
20:14:01 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help
20:14:06 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^bool
20:14:07 <fizzie> Not yet; it's very unportable code at-the-moment. When I get fungot running on it, I'll put it up.
20:14:07 <fungot> fizzie: so to a point they are working on a distributed dialect of scheme :p ( and that ork interpreter written in qt
20:14:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, why not use llvm to make it portable?
20:14:53 <AnMaster> iirc that is the only portable way to run code like that
20:15:01 <ehird> PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE
20:15:02 <ehird> PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE PORTABLE
20:15:03 <fizzie> Yes, mmap with PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE|PROT_EXEC.
20:15:52 <ehird> fizzie: is it based on any code?
20:15:54 <ehird> or is it a new impl
20:16:02 <fizzie> ehird: Completely from scratch.
20:16:24 <ehird> fizzie: I'd like to help but I dunno how I could.
20:16:30 <asiekierka> Q: Is an infiniloop possible in Unlambda?
20:16:34 <AnMaster> same I could probably not do it
20:16:41 <ehird> fizzie: I assume it's not at the level of implementing fingerprints yet?
20:16:44 <ehird> I'd be good at that.
20:16:50 <fizzie> The stack is done (well, will be done, if I can manage) by mmaping some memory for it, then catching the SIGSEGV, mangling some registers around, then restoring the context.
20:16:52 <AnMaster> asiekierka, should be using continuations
20:17:39 <ehird> AnMaster: it's "good"
20:17:44 <fizzie> Hey, no explicit underflow/overflow checks.
20:17:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do you know you didn't catch the sigsegv from something else?
20:17:56 <fizzie> From the address it gives me.
20:17:59 <ehird> by setting a flag?
20:18:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about pop on empty stack then?
20:18:58 <fizzie> Well, that's just a read below the current stack; I just need to set a suitable register to zero, add +4 to the funge-stack pointer reg, and restore the faulting context from the next instruction.
20:19:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, assuming that is you go for a full blown befunge-98 that is
20:19:21 <fizzie> Stackstack will probably involve some copying around, though.
20:19:35 <fizzie> There is an interface of sorts for fingerprints (all A..Z are mapped to distinct function calls) so that can be used for implementing fingerprints without having to touch the code-generation.
20:19:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, if you did this on kernel level you could use memory mapping to implement stack stack
20:20:20 <fizzie> I could probably use separate mmap ranges for the stack-stack substacks and simply swap some pointers.
20:20:44 <AnMaster> ah no you would still need copy on write
20:21:06 <fizzie> Currently I use eax/ebx/ecx/edx for the generated Funge-code, edi as a temporary for more complicated blocks (so far no branches yet! just conditional sets) and esi as the funge stack pointer.
20:21:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, so how far are you going to take this? Full blown mycology passing? t support?
20:21:47 <ais523> fizzie: why not ebp as the stack pointer?
20:21:48 <fizzie> I don't see how I could do 't' with correct timing without completely losing the point.
20:21:53 <ais523> that would be more usual...
20:21:58 <ais523> or even esp if you want to live dangerously
20:22:14 <ais523> but that would play badly with the rest of the code, I guess
20:22:18 <ais523> ehird: multithreads a Funge program
20:22:26 <ehird> why would that be hard?
20:22:27 <ais523> but the threading's synchronous, like in INTERCAL
20:22:40 <ais523> thus fizzie's "with correct timing" mention
20:22:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, also just an idea, wouldn't using something like llvm be useful here?
20:22:45 <ais523> doing it with incorrect timing wouldn't be hard
20:22:56 <AnMaster> or maybe it would abstract too much and prevent some of these hacks
20:23:47 <fizzie> I do quite a lot of function calls from inside the generated code, so I'm trying to mostly obey the calling conventions; I guess ebp is sort-of needed for stack frames to make sense.
20:24:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm passing on stack or in registers?
20:24:21 <asiekierka> The ultimate Unlambda contest: Make a program that decides whether obama should win or mccain
20:24:26 <AnMaster> if you really want to go for speed then passing parameters in registers would be useful
20:24:40 <ais523> asiekierka: nah, that's just printing a constant string
20:24:46 <fizzie> Well, on stack, the normal cdecl style. For now, anyway. It's not too difficult to change later, probably.
20:25:31 <ehird> ^ works it out for itself
20:25:36 <ehird> using boolean logic.
20:25:50 <fizzie> Oh, and I haven't done register-spilling at all yet, so it currently crashes badly if some piece of code needs more registers. That shouldn't be *too* hard, though.
20:25:57 <asiekierka> if the election was meant to be calculated only with computers that can only run unlambda
20:26:01 <oerjan> asiekierka: ```sii``sii to your earlier question
20:26:14 <ais523> oerjan: ha, you came up with the same answer as me
20:26:15 <ehird> asiekierka: i don't think that the election is decided by AIs deciding who should be president
20:26:19 <fizzie> I'm sure llvm would have been an interesting idea, but since I started writing x86 code-generating code already...
20:26:36 <asiekierka> ehird: the only params you get is the number of votes
20:26:53 <asiekierka> so, if 1 person voted on mccain and 3 on obama
20:27:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm... is the whole thing ASM?
20:27:07 <ehird> AnMaster: unlambda
20:27:27 <fizzie> It's C++ mostly, except that of course the code-generation uses assembly.
20:27:39 <fizzie> What I think is funky is that the "hello" thing I pasted was the absolute first time I tried to actually run the code I generated; it very very very much surprised me when it actually worked.
20:27:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, how far does it get in mycology?
20:27:51 <AnMaster> assuming it pass sanity at all
20:28:07 <ehird> he's evidently just started workinnnng on it
20:28:16 <ehird> i imagine it can't do anything more than hello world or maybe hq9+
20:28:29 <fizzie> Er, probably nowhere right now. Of course I could run it; but I expect a segfault or something.
20:28:47 <oerjan> ais523: it came up as one of the main cases in the 0x29A functional subset
20:29:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, still you should publish your code IMO, {insert rant about the cathedral vs. the bazaar}
20:29:27 <ehird> {insert rant about how AnMaster should shut up}
20:29:31 <fizzie> Segfault: ooh, I'm clairvoyant.
20:29:32 <oerjan> ais523: ```sii``sii, well in disguise
20:29:45 <fizzie> 3200 lines of C++ already, heh.
20:29:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, how much of that is ASM stuff?
20:30:50 <fizzie> Welll... most of codegen.cc (1400 lines) is at least very closely related.
20:31:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, how will it handle self modification?
20:31:24 <ehird> just modify the generated code
20:32:02 <AnMaster> I mean, you need to store two versions
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20:32:18 <ehird> just convert the machine code back to real code
20:32:30 <ehird> you generate it in a predefined pattern, not hard to do a quick check then extract the params
20:32:34 <ehird> and then see what that means
20:32:47 <AnMaster> as it is jitting you would probably generate optimised linear code
20:32:54 <fizzie> I don't think that will be very trivial, since it constant-folds things like 88*:* into a single constant.
20:33:06 <ehird> fizzie: well, that'd be a problem
20:33:08 <ais523> just store the playfield somewhere separate for the purpose of g and p
20:33:16 <ehird> then when p happens, recompile that bit
20:33:18 <fizzie> But I do keep a separate data-space, I just generate snippets of code hooked into (pos, delta) pairs.
20:33:22 <ehird> "that bit" is fizzie's problem
20:33:25 <AnMaster> ehird, see that was what I said
20:33:39 <fizzie> So p just needs to remove those snippets that happen to be there.
20:34:07 <ehird> gee AnMaster said something vague and meaningless, he sure showed me
20:34:57 <fizzie> The interpreter main loop works so that if it doesn't find code to execute starting from the current (pos, delta), it traces up to next @, |, _, w, or a snippet of existing code (and constant-folds and optimizes a bit already there), then converts that code into a native code function and calls that.
20:35:12 <AnMaster> gee ehird can't gets angry again because of his own blown up ego
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20:37:09 <fizzie> If it happens (fortuitously) hit the entry-point of an existing snippet, it adds a link there; otherwise it erases the old snippet and starts a new right there. I'm hoping that when I run this on some code, it'll basically end up finding the basic blocks and generating separate functions for those.
20:37:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'd really like to play around with it a bit already, I realise it is very incomplete and so on, but still
20:38:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, another idea, you could special case some common patterns such as >:#,_@
20:39:54 * AnMaster imagines a book called "Befunge Design patterns"
20:39:56 <fizzie> Maybe. There's also a lot of optimization opportunities in the generated code.
20:40:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah there llvm would really have helped
20:41:02 <fizzie> There's a tarball at http://zem.fi/~fis/jitfunge-export.tar.gz but don't expect anything actually working, or any support whatsoever, or even that it'd work on a non-Linux box; I think there's a mremap call in there, I'm not sure how well-supported that is. (Easy to eliminate, though.)
20:41:27 <fizzie> There are a couple of known memory leaks, too; the part which manages the mmap pages for the functions doesn't really do much memory management.
20:42:10 <fizzie> (The functions can't really be moved at will because of some PC-relative addressing in the call instructions; it would need some relocations for that.)
20:42:24 <fizzie> You can probably compile it with just a single g++ command, though.
20:43:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, any special cflags needed?
20:43:21 <AnMaster> g++ -o build/parser.o -c -m32 -Wall -Werror -ggdb3 src/parser.cc
20:43:21 <AnMaster> cc1plus: warnings being treated as errors
20:43:21 <AnMaster> src/parser.cc: In constructor 'jitfunge::Trace_impl::opargs::opargs()':
20:43:21 <AnMaster> src/parser.cc:18: warning: array subscript has type 'char'
20:43:50 <fizzie> Curious warning; I don't get that one.
20:43:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, maybe different gcc version
20:43:57 <fizzie> It's obviously correct, though.
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20:44:13 <AnMaster> CFLAGS="-march=k8 -msse3 -m32 -O2 -pipe" CXXFLAGS="-march=k8 -msse3 -m32 -O2 -pipe" scons
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20:45:33 <fizzie> Yes, I think there's some explicit scons command for picking up that stuff from the environment.
20:45:35 <AnMaster> fizzie also: scons: *** Source `src/tool.cc' not found, needed by target `build/tool.o'. Stop.
20:45:50 <fizzie> Oh, I haven't added tool.cc in the svn, so svn export didn't catch it.
20:46:17 <AnMaster> tell me when you got an updated version that fixes the tool.cc and the char thing
20:46:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, it also warned for line 19 20 21 22 23 and 24 in the same file
20:46:48 <AnMaster> and multiple times for each line
20:47:34 <fizzie> I fixed that tarball there for the tool.cc thing, but not yet the char-array indexing.
20:48:15 <AnMaster> hm svn needs server side support?
20:48:57 <fizzie> Yes. I do have a svn server here, though, but I think it's configured so that it only accepts HTTPS connections with client certificates. Haven't used it for anything public.
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20:50:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm what cpu do you generate for?
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20:51:31 <fizzie> Okay, the tarball now should have tool.cc and (int) casts for the array indices.
20:52:02 <fizzie> Something like i686, although the only "fancy" opcode there is the conditional SET, which I think appeared around Pentium Pro.
20:52:45 <fizzie> Incidentally, the scons script should generate both jitfunge and jittool; the 'jitfunge' part is the interpreter (such at it is) but the jittool is maybe more interesting.
20:53:10 <fizzie> The jittool one takes file (plus optional four integers, x y dx dy) and generates + compiles a single trace, then dumps the generated code.
20:53:29 <fizzie> Although the final stage of the dumping just calls "ndisasm -b 32 tmp.data" which you might not have in your path.
20:53:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, any idea why that segfaults?
20:53:51 <AnMaster> what did your hello look like?
20:53:55 <fizzie> Stack underflow, maybe?
20:54:11 <fizzie> Yes, because I haven't done the stack part yet. :p
20:54:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, adding a 0 at the start didn't help
20:54:35 <fizzie> My hello looked like a"olleh",,,,,,0@ :p
20:54:49 <AnMaster> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
20:54:49 <AnMaster> #1 0x49811ca0 in ?? () from /lib/ld-linux.so.2
20:54:52 <AnMaster> #3 0x08054749 in jitfunge::AsmFunction::operator() (this=0x841b058) at src/codegen.hh:274
20:55:03 <AnMaster> also: Backtrace stopped: frame did not save the PC
20:55:13 <fizzie> Well, it's inside some generated code all right.
20:55:31 <fizzie> (The 0 there in my hello is because @ -- despite what the spec says -- also pops a single value to use as the exit code at the moment.)
20:55:46 <fizzie> I'll work on portability when I get it to work at all first. :p
20:56:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, why is the 0 needed in front of that @ in your code?
20:56:54 <fizzie> My @ and q map to the same thing. Work-in-progress....
20:57:00 * AnMaster wonders about current lag spike
20:57:08 <AnMaster> I think I may need to restart router
20:57:42 <fizzie> Oh, anything using stack segfaults currently, since I haven't even initialized the stack pointer. :p
20:58:01 <ais523> fizzie: what in Befunge doesn't use the stack? Not a lot, surely?
20:58:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, how comes your hello worked then?
20:58:34 <fizzie> a"olleh",,,,,,0@ doesn't "use the stack" because it's all constants, so it gets turned into "set eax to character, push eax, call writechr".
20:59:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, that program must be seriously hard to debug
21:00:05 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure how that will follow, but I'm still working on it.
21:00:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, well do you aim for speed with it?
21:00:33 <fizzie> Speed, I guess. And complete Funge-98 enough so that fungot runs on it.
21:00:33 <fungot> fizzie: undefined variable ' f' called within it. how in the world who don't spend all time merging a custom xml format have less expertise.
21:00:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, because I'm well aware this will beat anything, including cfunge
21:01:06 <fizzie> Mycology within limits. I'm not sure what all it tests.
21:01:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, it tests core, and optionally any fingerprints
21:01:26 <fizzie> The 't' thing is something I'm not going to do, and neither will I do trefunge probably.
21:01:32 <AnMaster> of course it just tells you fingerprint foo couldn't be loaded
21:01:44 <AnMaster> and mycology doesn't test trefunge
21:01:49 <AnMaster> and nor does cfunge support trefunge
21:02:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, does it compile with anything but gcc btw?
21:02:48 <fizzie> There's no obvious gcc-isms, at least.
21:03:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, well scons seems to ignore both CC and CFLAGS
21:03:31 <fizzie> I will probably start testing with mycology when I get some real code to run. Although I think I'll take the rest of the evening as a break.
21:04:17 <AnMaster> fizzie: scons: *** Do not know how to make target `clean'. Stop.
21:04:33 <ehird> <AnMaster> gee ehird can't gets angry again because of his own blown up ego
21:04:43 <ehird> i don't know where this imagined ego of mine comes from.
21:04:44 <ehird> care to enlighten?
21:05:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway any idea how to get scons to read the env vars?
21:05:36 <fizzie> I'll fix the SConstruct file to do that.
21:06:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, also it is CXXFLAGS I guess?
21:06:56 <AnMaster> at least that is what autotools and everything else use
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21:14:50 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, the tarball in there now has a SConstruct file which lets you override CXXFLAGS and CXX (the C++ compiler used).
21:15:23 <ehird> fizzie: gonna test on os x
21:15:33 <fizzie> Heh, good luck with that. :p
21:15:56 <fizzie> The mremap call won't be there, at least. I'll do a workaround for that at some point.
21:16:07 <fizzie> It isn't really needed, anyway.
21:18:32 <fizzie> My only OS X computer is a powerpc, so I probably won't really be testing with that.
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21:47:49 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/jitfunge$ cat test.b98
21:47:49 <fizzie> 0a"!dlrow ,olleH">:#,_@
21:47:49 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/jitfunge$ build/jitfunge test.b98
21:48:10 <fizzie> Still doesn't handle stack underflow, but at least the stack is there.
21:48:22 <fizzie> Also chased around a couple of very mysterious bugs.
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21:50:33 <fizzie> For reference, the >:#,_ loop is translated into something like: mov esi, [stack_top]; std; lodsd; push eax; call writechr; add esp, 4; mov eax, [esi]; test eax, eax; mov eax, 0; setnz al; mov [stack_top], esi;
21:51:29 <ehird> fizzie: buildin' on os tenpoop
21:51:34 <fizzie> (After which control returns from the generated code back into the interpreter, which will use the eax value to decide whether to call the same piece of code again or to proceed to the left.)
21:51:48 <fizzie> Oh yes, those are very pretty.
21:51:52 <ehird> pikhq: yes, befunge-98 jit
21:51:53 <pikhq> Wow. That's gorgeous.
21:51:58 <ehird> it's been done before, but only -93
21:52:17 <fizzie> It's not like jitfunge really does anything very -98y yet, though.
21:52:23 <fizzie> Although the space is larger.
21:52:32 <ehird> fizzie: Here is a paste you can do absolutely ntohing with:
21:52:52 <ehird> fizzie: http://rafb.net/p/8raqXi81.html
21:54:29 <fizzie> Well, there's the mremap error, that one's clear. I'm not sure I want to try reading that C++ one.
21:54:45 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure I'm using the C++ TR1 hash table right, anyway.
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21:56:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, iirc you can't return from sigsegv handler right?
21:57:16 <AnMaster> ehird, well it would terminate you
21:57:23 <ehird> AnMaster: considering SBCL does it
21:57:29 <ehird> and presumably jitfunge
21:57:34 <AnMaster> llvm-g++ is hashed (/home/arvid/local/llvm/bin/llvm-g++)
21:57:41 <AnMaster> llvm-g++ -o build/codegen.o -c -march=k8 -msse3 -m32 -O0 -ggdb3 -pipe src/codegen.cc
21:57:41 <AnMaster> sh: llvm-g++: command not found
21:57:59 <ehird> AnMaster: iirc, scons doesn't inherit PATH
21:58:02 <ehird> for an actual reason that i forget.
21:58:09 <ehird> no, it is justified
21:58:19 <ehird> AnMaster: I think "scons 'PATH=$PATH'"
21:58:33 <ehird> AnMaster: no, "how it was justified"
21:58:43 <ehird> AnMaster: found it
21:58:59 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.scons.org/faq.php#SS_4_3
21:59:01 <fizzie> The signal handler gets the ucontext_t struct as a third parameter when using the sigaction stuff, then I can (possibly, unportably) setcontext() back to it after manipulating it a bit.
21:59:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, to be able to build here I would need to override LD too
21:59:30 <AnMaster> and to be able to override the path
22:00:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I see what it says but requiring end users to do that is just silly
22:00:27 <fizzie> Feel free to edit the SConstruct, then.
22:00:42 <ehird> AnMaster: scons was designed in an environment for e.g. companies with a software project
22:00:53 <AnMaster> ehird, ok then it makes sense I guess
22:00:54 <ehird> if you were in one, presumably you would realise the advantage of fully repeatable builds anywhere
22:00:59 <ehird> but yes, that sucks for end-users
22:01:14 <AnMaster> ehird, yes for internally using it in a company it makes sense
22:01:56 <ehird> AnMaster: it was used to compile doom3
22:02:04 <ehird> "Doom3's Linux build system uses SCons. CC="ccache distcc g++-3.3" JOBS=8 rocks!"
22:02:14 <ehird> so there they have an internally-distributed, presumably automated build process
22:02:37 <AnMaster> it make sense for internally usage yes
22:03:26 * AnMaster solves it by setting CXX to the full path
22:03:39 <AnMaster> but yes it breaks when it tries to use ld
22:03:44 <ehird> AnMaster: so set LD?
22:04:52 <AnMaster> I tried to extend the same way that was already used
22:05:12 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/local/llvm/bin/llvm-g++ -o build/jitfunge -m32 -ggdb build/main.o build/codegen.o build/interp.o build/parser.o build/space.o
22:05:12 <AnMaster> /usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /home/arvid/local/llvm/lib/gcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/4.2.1/../../../../lib/libstdc++.a when searching for -lstdc++
22:05:12 <AnMaster> /usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /home/arvid/local/llvm/lib/gcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/4.2.1/../../../libstdc++.a when searching for -lstdc++
22:05:12 <AnMaster> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lstdc++
22:05:14 <AnMaster> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
22:05:23 <AnMaster> it just works with both autotools and cmake
22:05:35 <AnMaster> heck it usually just works with 99% of the plain makefiles too
22:06:18 <ehird> i can't use this program therefore the shitty things it tries to replace are superior
22:06:25 <ehird> autotools is not a total ugly hack, nope
22:06:36 <fizzie> scons is a bit peculiar with its habits, but I sort-of like it when doing build systems for myself; my DS development environment is done with it.
22:06:44 <ehird> AnMaster: What does uggly mean? Really ugly?
22:06:49 <ehird> also, no, it really doesn't
22:06:55 <AnMaster> ehird, autotools sucks I fully agree
22:07:00 <AnMaster> but at least it respects env variables
22:07:17 <fizzie> Anyway, scons's name for the linker is 'LINK', not 'LD'.
22:07:19 <AnMaster> and I can't figure out how to make scons respect LD
22:07:39 <ehird> ld is a certain linker
22:07:56 <ehird> ld refers to a single linker product
22:08:02 <ehird> there are others that are not lds but they are linkers
22:08:10 <ehird> ld is not a generic term of linker
22:08:25 <ehird> AnMaster: in that case.
22:08:32 <ehird> but what about LD=magic-corp-foobazing-linker?
22:08:39 <ehird> magic-corp-foobazing-linker is a linker, not an ld(1).
22:08:42 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is how it is usually done
22:08:51 <ehird> AnMaster: usually done != the better option
22:08:53 <AnMaster> ln -s llvm-ld magic-corp-foobazing-linker
22:08:56 <ehird> Windows is what is usually used.
22:09:01 <ehird> So why don't you use it?
22:09:34 <AnMaster> llvm-ld: Unknown command line argument '-m32'. Try: '/home/arvid/local/llvm/bin/llvm-ld --help'
22:09:35 <AnMaster> llvm-ld: Unknown command line argument '-ggdb'. Try: '/home/arvid/local/llvm/bin/llvm-ld --help'
22:10:15 <fizzie> I'm not sure ld needs those flags, actually.
22:10:18 <ehird> on the other hand, LD is probably a better name for the env variable
22:10:24 <ehird> since it seems to require ld :p
22:10:27 <fizzie> (It's LINKFLAGS where they come from.)
22:10:40 * oerjan writes down AnMaster's name for future stalking
22:11:03 <fizzie> It's not really a build system, it's just something that manages to compile it here. As I've mentioned a couple of times, it's just a tarball, not a distribution.
22:11:50 <AnMaster> you could find it using google
22:11:58 <ehird> see: cfunge source.
22:12:07 <fizzie> Hee, now it can run mycology without segfaulting.
22:12:35 <ehird> i should try and look up AnMaster's phone number just to be creepy.
22:12:37 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/mycout.txt
22:12:43 * oerjan tosses his list of things to blackmail AnMaster for
22:13:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, well 7! would be easy to fix
22:13:52 <fizzie> I have implemented !, but apparently not right.
22:14:12 <fizzie> "7!. a, 0@" does print a 0 here, but that's not surprising, since it constant-folds that.
22:14:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait constant folding is computed in a different way?
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22:14:53 <fizzie> Well, sure, since it's the parser which does it.
22:15:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm maybe constant fold based on first run?
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22:15:45 <fizzie> I don't really think so. The generated code with/without constant-folding is completely different, after all.
22:16:45 <oerjan> constant folding is usually good, but not in poker programs
22:16:47 <fizzie> Curious, though. "700p00g!.a,0@" also prints out 0. It might be some other bug causing the mycology output, though.
22:17:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, eh? pun detected but not understood
22:17:17 <oerjan> SO LOOK IT UP ALREADY :D
22:17:22 <ais523> AnMaster: "fold" is something you can do in poker
22:17:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't plan to learn playing poker
22:17:35 <ais523> which causes you to lose the hand, but not lose any more money than you've already bet
22:17:39 <oerjan> i don't play it either
22:17:52 <ais523> doing it constantly will cause you to lose eventually, although doing it sometimes is normally a good idae
22:17:59 <oerjan> but i know some basic rules
22:18:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, tracing output dumping stack at each step?
22:19:00 <AnMaster> ais523, how can you loose more money than you already bet?
22:19:11 <ais523> AnMaster: normally you have the choice of folding or betting mroe
22:19:24 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, so there is no "pass"?
22:19:24 <ais523> so if you don't fold, you have to bet more
22:19:31 <ais523> there is sometimes but not usually
22:19:50 <ais523> that's the whole point of poker strategy, you force your opponents to bet more, or to bluff them into folding
22:21:58 <AnMaster> fizzie: src/interp.cc:19: warning: unused parameter 'location'
22:22:14 <AnMaster> src/parser.cc:63: warning: missing initializer for member 'jitfunge::StackChange::flush'
22:22:15 <AnMaster> src/parser.cc:63: warning: missing initializer for member 'jitfunge::StackChange::in'
22:22:27 <fizzie> Is this with what compiler?
22:22:41 <fizzie> Ah. With some optimization flags?
22:22:48 <fizzie> Without -O2 it won't catch all that.
22:22:54 <fizzie> Will fix at some point.
22:22:58 <AnMaster> CXXFLAGS="-march=k8 -msse3 -m32 -O3 -Wall -Wextra -ftracer -fweb -frename-registers -ggdb3 -pipe"
22:24:12 <AnMaster> but -ftracer is actually useful
22:25:53 <AnMaster> Perform tail duplication to enlarge superblock size. This transformation simplifies the control flow of the function allowing other optimizations to
22:25:53 <fizzie> Well, the mycology bug was a bug in some of the trivial optimizations I do; forgot to set one value, so it skipped one instruction that was actually necessary.
22:26:15 <AnMaster> I tested it and for example it replaced something like:
22:26:39 <ais523> AnMaster: I know what tail duplication does
22:26:55 <ais523> it didn't just do that, it changed the target of a goto too
22:27:25 <ais523> AnMaster: say you have an if near the end of a function
22:27:25 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/mycout.txt ... does that "p doesn't modify space" test putting an instruction on the playfield?
22:27:38 <ais523> tail duplication makes two copies of the end of the function, one for each branch of the if
22:27:41 <ais523> and optimises them separately
22:27:51 <AnMaster> ais523, yes it helped a lot in the case I tried it
22:28:03 <ais523> my guess is mov %edx, %eax was a goto target without -ftracer so it couldn't be optimised out
22:28:22 <AnMaster> ais523, oddly enough nothing else in the function changed
22:28:38 <ais523> strange, are you sure that was -ftracer?
22:29:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I also used -fweb in both cases
22:30:00 <AnMaster> ais523, also when I later added some calls to __builtin_expect() I got it down to even less jumps
22:30:22 <AnMaster> mostly conditional stores iirc
22:30:30 <AnMaster> or whatever they are called now again
22:30:42 <AnMaster> (the function returned true or false
22:31:28 <fizzie> Well, then it's a "known issue".
22:32:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, would it be hard to later port this program to another arch?
22:32:41 <AnMaster> or is the low level code generation well enough abstracted?
22:32:58 <fizzie> Nontrivial, but maybe not terribly hard.
22:33:33 <fizzie> Abstraction, schmabstraction; at least almost all x86-specific code is in codegen.cc; too bad that one is almost half of the lines in the whole program.
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22:37:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do you implement funge space?
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22:37:28 <AnMaster> I mean, static array for some given size I guess
22:37:33 <fizzie> There's a static block of 64*64 cells (for coordinates 0..63) and a hashmap outside it.
22:37:51 <AnMaster> you will want a lot larger later on
22:37:56 <fizzie> Well, it's a single compile-time constant to change.
22:38:56 <fizzie> Also, when the get/put coordinate arguments are constants (i.e. 00g, <blabla>00p) that are inside the static range, the generated code will do simple mov's to/from there.
22:39:28 <fizzie> So those should be pretty much as fast as "variables".
22:39:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, you should probably be able to dynamically resize the static array
22:39:58 <AnMaster> just re-generate the access code
22:40:11 <AnMaster> if you notice a lot of access in some area
22:41:44 <fizzie> There's a single "mov edi, staticspacestart" involved, but after that 11g is just mov eax, [edi+0x104]
22:43:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, how optimal is the generated machine code?
22:43:22 <fizzie> But not most pessimal.
22:43:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you think it will beat a good interpreter compiled with a good compiler?
22:43:43 <fizzie> It does stupid things, but not completely brainlessly idiotic things, at least in most cases.
22:44:24 <fizzie> For some programs, certainly. No need to update position/delta, parse things like <>v^ at all, or even fetch instructions from the funge-space.
22:45:03 <fizzie> I'll do benchmarking when I get something non-trivial to work. I think I'll test with that underload interp first.
22:45:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about something like the game of life in it?
22:45:26 <fizzie> I think I'm going to have to add a bit more non-portability to the mix for the "catch stack underflow by intercepting the page-fault" feature, since if I just use the portable form of mmap(), the page it gives me ends up right next to other stuff in the virtual address space, and reading below it will not cause segfault but just return random-ish fluff.
22:45:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I expect that you will do it on cfunge on an intel machine and using ICC
22:45:40 <AnMaster> that is about as optimal as you can get
22:46:09 <ehird> ah, i am reminded again why i ignored AnMaster
22:46:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm so you need to map two pages after each other
22:47:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, and make one nonaccess using mprotect
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22:47:16 <AnMaster> that should work fairly portable for underflow
22:47:34 <AnMaster> you would need fixed mappings I guess
22:48:03 <fizzie> That's the "trust your luck" scenario; there's nothing saying it should map things consecutively. I think I'll just use MMAP_FIXED, it's not *so* unportable.
22:48:23 <fizzie> Even though the man-pages complain about the discouragednessity of it.
22:48:43 <fizzie> Yes, well, with MMAP_FIXED I don't think I need anything below it.
22:48:54 <fizzie> Non-mapped address spage should generate segfaults just fine.
22:48:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, what if some other mapping is created below
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22:49:04 <AnMaster> that sounds like trust your luck too
22:49:58 <fizzie> Okay, maybe I could stick a guard page there. But the whole "let's use this address for the stack, it's probably not used" thing is a bit iffy. I don't think I'll start randomly trying multiple addresses or anything like that.
22:50:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok what do you prefer?
22:50:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh my system uses ASLR
22:51:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, I guess that explains why it complains about text relocations?
22:52:44 <fizzie> I think the ASLR implementations still have some specific ranges for the various types of memory areas. Don't know the details of those, though.
22:53:40 <fizzie> I think I'll just stick the funge stack into 0x40000000 or something and hope it works. The whole system is quite a "hope it works" thing. But at least enlarging the stack should be easy then, just add more pages.
22:54:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, and really that is a bad idea
22:57:28 <AnMaster> that prints aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
22:59:10 <fizzie> Updated the tarball, you can probably just copy your fixed SConstruct over it.
22:59:35 <fizzie> Still, probably won't make sense to do much bug-hunting just yet; there are a lot of 'em.
23:01:41 <AnMaster> you said p would just clear out code paths
23:01:52 <AnMaster> but how does that work if a constant path bypasses it?
23:02:22 <AnMaster> and that p writes into hello world
23:02:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, so my question is, how do you update in the middle of constant folded paths
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23:22:24 <fizzie> The space-hashmap has (pos, delta) entries for all commands encountered when tracing the paths, so that can be used to notice when p is writing into something that has been visited when compiling.
23:23:14 <fizzie> When that happens, I just clear the whole compiled snippet, and it will get recompiled the next time (if ever) it is ran.
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23:24:44 <fizzie> Anyhow, sleeping really now.
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23:45:34 <AnMaster> whoa I just got cfunge to compile using Open64
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02:52:57 <GregorR> Slereah_: DAH GUBMENT JEWED MY RON PAUL?
03:01:35 <GregorR> RON PAUL AND FIDEL CASTRO'S REANIMATED CORPSE IN 2012
03:01:53 <Slereah> RON PAUL AND RON PAUL IN 2012
03:02:02 <Slereah> Can you nominate yourself as vice president?
03:02:42 <GregorR> Ron Paul is functionally no better than senile already.
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03:36:46 <warrie> Without objection, I intend to ratify the following report: "#esoteric is about politics."
03:38:31 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
03:38:39 <warrie> You can't object, you're not a player.
03:38:59 <warrie> Register, then you'll be able to object.
03:39:44 <GregorR> I object to your suggestion that I must register to object.
03:40:45 <warrie> It's not a suggestion, it's a rule.
03:41:25 <GregorR> I'm not playing your game, and as such I am not following your rules. Since I am not following your rules, I may object to anything you say for any reason. Since I'm not playing by your rules, my objections have no bearing on anything.
03:43:31 <GregorR> I object to your motion to darn.
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03:44:55 <warrie> I object to your interpretation of my interjection.
03:47:58 <GregorR> I object to your objection of the interpretation of your interjection leading to my objection of your response to my assertion defying your declaration arguing against my objection of your complaint at my objection.
03:49:08 <warrie> I object to everything.
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03:51:56 <warrie> Let us now take pictures of skulls among junk.
03:52:31 <GregorR> "Only one store has been a part of your life for 150 years."
03:52:38 <GregorR> That line in this commercial is so stupid :P
03:52:44 <GregorR> It is literally not true of /anyone/.
03:53:48 * warrie sends the picture, which, presumably, puts it somewhere
03:55:15 <warrie> I wish this phone had a "what the heck does that flashing icon mean" button.
03:59:00 <warrie> Well, that didn't work.
03:59:06 * warrie tries to plug his phone into his computer
04:00:14 <GregorR> * warrie's computer explodes
04:01:23 <warrie> What's that in Spanish? "calavera"?
04:03:46 <warrie> I'll take your silence as meaning "Yes, Master."
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04:09:43 <calamari> saw this on slashdot: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1019609&cid=25649459
04:12:48 <GregorR> Almost certainly not turing complete, no unbounded loops or recursion.
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04:16:25 <calamari> no recursion? hmm .. you may be right
04:21:42 <GregorR> Also, 'find' isn't really useful in it unless you can create files and directories, for which you need mkdir and (something akin to) touch.
04:24:00 <calamari> so if we changed things.. sh and ; can help with recursion
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04:27:40 <calamari> GregorR: so does Facebook still make you sick?
04:28:18 <GregorR> calamari: It has one (1) useful feature.
04:29:07 <GregorR> I was referring to the event planning :P
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05:42:06 <oklopol> what did he mean? that it's tc to pipe them? because that's basically max(map(computational_power,["find","xargs","grep"]))
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08:22:04 <fizzie> Re the stack things, of course it's trivial to do the guard pages portably, with mprotect; didn't realize (I blame tiredness) it can set individual pages out of a larger mapping.
08:31:12 <fizzie> Currently I'm wondering why the underflow handling seems to work even though I've only implemented one half (resetting ESI correctly), not the other (setting to zero the target register). It might be just luck, those target registers might be zero at that time anyway. Also, 1+\..a,@ prints out "1 0 " instead of "0 1 ", but that seems to be a bug in the generated code already.
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09:13:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, how would that part work on other platforms?
09:13:35 <AnMaster> I mean sure I can see how you could port the code generation
09:13:46 <AnMaster> but I'm not so sure about the segfault handling
09:15:22 <fizzie> I'm sure something similar is implementable on most archs; if not, then the code generation can generate plain old explicit checks for underflow.
09:15:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, by the way I tested open64, it can compile cfunge
09:15:53 <fizzie> I just think most architectures have something to handle dynamic stack-enlargening in Real Programs (tm).
09:17:11 <fizzie> I just spent more than a minute wondering why "00g.a," printed out 48 instead of 32, before I realized that the space isn't empty at start, there's that program inside it. "Heh."
09:18:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, does it handle wrapping?
09:18:44 <fizzie> Sure, in the tracing code. Don't think I have tested it at all, though.
09:19:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about a _ at the edge then?
09:19:37 <fizzie> I don't see anything special about _ at the edge.
09:19:45 <fizzie> The next trace will start at the edge and wrap.
09:20:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, right, how far does it get in mycology now?
09:20:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and I suppose \ is turned into a single XCHG or something like that?
09:21:04 <fizzie> Actually in most cases \ just changes the registers used by later instructions; I don't keep things on stack unless I have to.
09:21:26 <fizzie> But a plain old \ by itself currently does pop+pop+push+push; I'll think about optimizations later on, maybe.
09:22:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, it could be turned into a single XCHG I believe
09:22:41 <fizzie> (Basically a trace containing only a \ will automagically generate stack loads into virtual registers r0, r1; then the \ instruction just changes the order of those in a list; and hitting the end of trace will generate those two push instructions because it needs to flush things back on stack.
09:23:24 <fizzie> Sure, although I'm not completely sure how my stack underflow thing will survive it.
09:24:55 <fizzie> Still, I can special-case a bit depending on the opcode that caused the underflow.
09:25:13 <fizzie> What I really don't see is why this underflow thing stubbornly keeps working even though I haven't really implemented it completely.
09:26:44 <fizzie> I have 9 in ecx; then I do a "mov ecx, [esi]" which causes a segfault; when I restore the context, ecx automagically seems to be zero, even though I don't mangle the saved context at all.
09:27:20 <fizzie> I'm not sure how well-defined things like that are. Should probably read some processor manuals to find out.
09:28:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, could depend on OS too?
09:28:55 <fizzie> Also if I do a "lodsd" instruction (which does ax <- [esi] and auto-post-decrements esi), and the read from [esi] causes a fault, I'd like to know whether esi is still decremented.
09:28:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, since a segfault would go through the kernel
09:29:21 <fizzie> Sure, it's the kernel who packages the context up and sends a signal.
09:29:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about out of order execution?
09:29:40 <AnMaster> that could probably mess up this a lot
09:29:47 <AnMaster> since modern CPUs reorder instructions
09:31:08 <fizzie> Well, I don't think they're allowed to do that too much so that observable semantics change.
09:31:49 <fizzie> Admittedly the exact happenings on a page fault are a bit of a border case.
09:31:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, well "not for normal use", but I think a fault isn't that
09:32:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, if it didn't matter instructions such as MFENCE wouldn't exist
09:36:48 <fizzie> I'm hoping a page fault will do the sensible things re flushing/serializing stuff. Will worry about the details later.
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10:00:27 <fizzie> What I'm not quite sure is to have to deal with a self-modifying 'p' while retaining the "constant-location-g/p access is as fast as variables" behaviour. On code-generation time, I can't be sure if that particular location will later become part of something executable. I guess I could keep a list of all constant-p references to any cells, and when tracing, invalidate those pieces of compiled code that need changes.
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10:32:29 <fizzie> Curious, after "GOOD: 8*0 = 0" I now get an infinite number of newlines from mycology.
10:32:45 <fizzie> Yesterday it correctly printed out "GOOD: # < jumps into <".
10:33:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, well the way you do that stuff it won't be easy to debug
10:35:51 <fizzie> Indeed. Well, I could dump out the generated code every time it traces things, to see if that helps any. It will probably generate quite a lot of output, though.
10:37:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, you could insert trace calls or something?
10:38:07 <fizzie> I guess I could, reasonably easily even.
10:39:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, for scripted interpreters I found that doing something such as having a known good implementation dump traceoutput
10:39:35 <AnMaster> then your new one dump trace in the same format
10:39:53 <AnMaster> but for JIT that may not help a lot
10:40:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway the point is diffing trace output and see where it begins to differ
10:41:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, for example cfunge at -t 4 should work for that
10:41:26 <AnMaster> (tid and tix are got threads so ignore that)
10:41:50 <fizzie> The constant-folding part will make that a bit difficult; of course I could dump some trace output already before code-generation, but at that point I don't have the stack available. But I would get the "where did the IP go" trace, at least.
10:42:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, for stack in cfunge you would want -t 9
10:42:45 <AnMaster> Stack has 1 elements, top 5 (or less) elements:
10:42:47 <AnMaster> Stack has 2 elements, top 5 (or less) elements:
10:43:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway diffing trace output to "known" good have helped me a lot when working on efunge
10:44:56 <fizzie> It seems to end up in a >:#,_ print loop, printing infinite newlines. I'm guessing it might even be finally the stack undeflow thing not returning zero; but I'd like a bit smaller test case than mycology for that.
10:45:34 <AnMaster> well that helps you somewhat at least :)
10:46:55 <fizzie> Hey, yay. A single a"yay">:#,_@ loop will also print infinite newlines; after popping that a, it seems to pop and pop and pop and pop.
10:49:12 <oerjan> once you pop, you can't stop
10:50:47 <fizzie> Hmph, I don't know gdb enough to make a breakpoint inside an overloaded C++ operator. Maybe the line number will work.
10:52:40 <AnMaster> only issue if you have two files with the same name, then gdb always manage to interpret it as the other file, not the one you wanted
10:53:08 <AnMaster> (this can happen if you built some library with debugging info for example)
10:53:44 <fizzie> (gdb) disassemble 0xf7ee8023
10:53:44 <fizzie> No function contains specified address.
10:53:55 <fizzie> Right, I just want them bytes.
10:54:27 <fizzie> I guess the two-argument form will disassemble for me without finding a function.
10:54:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, change language mode to asm or such
10:55:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw how do you jump into the generated code?
10:55:35 <fizzie> Cast to a function pointer and call it.
10:56:07 <AnMaster> hm that is a sure way to confuse any debugger I can think of...
11:01:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you think it will build as a Position Independent Executable (PIE)?
11:01:58 <fizzie> Sure, since the compiler doesn't know about the code-generation part, and the addresses and such are known at the time when it actually does the code-generation.
11:02:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, thought the pie offset thingy register would have messed up for you
11:05:07 <fizzie> Oh, founded the bug. There's a "peek" instruction (I combine a pop+push into a peek) which reads from below the stack; the segfault handler accidentally increments the stack pointer there too, even though it wasn't actually decremented.
11:05:55 <AnMaster> heh while valgrind may work, it seems mudflap doesn't
11:06:56 <AnMaster> ah MUDFLAP_OPTIONS="-heur-proc-map" makes it work
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11:24:26 <fizzie> Phew, fixed that bug. Now it looks at the opcode which caused the stack fault and sets the target register to zero; and also at the next opcode to avoid decrementing the stack pointer after resetting it.
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12:57:40 <fizzie> There is the self-modifying 'p', although I guess it's a bit buggy still. Mycology doesn't complain about "p doesn't modify space" now, but "BAD: 900pg doesn't get 9" even though running "900pg.a,@" does print out 9.
13:05:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, nice, updated the snapshot?
13:08:18 <fizzie> Did now, but don't expect much to work yet either.
13:09:33 <AnMaster> src/interp.cc: In constructor 'jitfunge::Stack::Stack()':
13:09:34 <AnMaster> src/interp.cc:159: warning: missing initializer for member 'sigaction::__sigaction_handler'
13:09:34 <AnMaster> src/interp.cc:159: warning: missing initializer for member 'sigaction::sa_mask'
13:09:34 <AnMaster> src/interp.cc:159: warning: missing initializer for member 'sigaction::sa_flags'
13:09:34 <AnMaster> src/interp.cc:159: warning: missing initializer for member 'sigaction::sa_restorer'
13:10:27 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/LDH6i265.html is all the warnings
13:11:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, nice I don't know how you manage to mess up mycorand so much...
13:12:07 <fizzie> I don't think I implement ? at all. Not sure.
13:12:32 <AnMaster> but afaik mycorand should loop until it had at least one of each direction
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13:13:05 <fizzie> 900pg 9-!| leaves down instead of up. That's a nice bug too. Debugging this isn't very pleasant.
13:18:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, where is the debug output generated?
13:25:11 <fizzie> Ooh: "GOOD: 900pg gets 9", "GOOD: p modifies space". Then it hangs up.
13:25:31 <fizzie> Well, an infinite loop is my guess.
13:30:45 <fizzie> At (5,17), heading left. Maybe a wrapping issue or something. It seems to bounce off the edge for some strange reason: it sees two $s and an _, instead of wrapping.
13:31:12 <fizzie> The debug output isn't written anywhere just yet, it's just one line I've been commenting/uncommenting. I'll add a command-line flag for it in the next revision.
13:31:26 <fizzie> I think I'll try to get the wrapping right first, though.
13:33:35 <ehird> fizzie: Can I test it on OS X again?
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13:35:47 <fizzie> I haven't removed the mremap or changed the hashmappery, so I doubt it'll work any better.
13:38:12 <fizzie> Oh, it wraps just fine, it's just the \r\n newlines of mycology leaving a \r there, which it reflects from.
13:38:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, then you need to fix your loading ;)
13:40:35 <fizzie> There was some C++ template error from my use of <tr1/unordered_map> on OS X.
13:41:00 <fizzie> Loading is fixed, but mycology crashes at the same point: "unrecognized opcode in stack underflow".
13:44:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm what gcc version did you say you used?
13:44:51 <fizzie> Hmm, it's a stack underflow when pushing. That's creative.
13:45:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, underflow when pushing, how did you manage that?
13:46:40 <ehird> fizzie: let me know when it's ready to implement fingerprints
13:51:54 <fizzie> Oh, right. A $ does not read from the stack (because it's a useless memory read), it just decrements the stack pointer reg; so the next push will cause the stack underflow check to fire. Well, that's... somewhat easy to fix. I think.
13:56:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, depending on the program this faulting instead of checking bounds could be a lot slower
13:56:46 <fizzie> I think most programs do not do stack underflow much. At least my programs, anyway.
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13:57:18 <fizzie> Yay: Befunge-98 detected. GOOD: wraparound works, GOOD: a pushes 10, GOOD: b-f push 11-15, GOOD: [ turns left, GOOD: ] turns right, GOOD: instructions between ; are skipped, UNDEF: # across left edge hits easternmost cell in file, UNDEF: # across left edge hits easternmost cell on line, BAD: k reflects
13:57:32 <fizzie> Well, it's again few steps further.
13:57:53 <fizzie> Haven't done 'k' yet; it will probably not be very pleasant, at least to get all the corner cases right.
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14:10:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, cfunge have a bunch of test programs for k
14:11:05 <AnMaster> for the stuff mycology doesn't test
14:11:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, uploaded a new snapshot?
14:12:34 <fizzie> You can run it as "jitfunge file.b98 -d" to make it dump the traces it generates.
14:12:59 <fizzie> I'll add getopt'd command line arguments when I have something that actually works.
14:15:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm it seems slower than profile feedback compiled cfunge at life.bf
14:15:59 <AnMaster> oh wait I can't compare 32-bit to 64-bit
14:17:01 <fizzie> What, do you mean it actually runs life.bf?
14:17:26 <fizzie> That's really strange.
14:17:31 <AnMaster> output seems correct as far as I can tell
14:17:56 <AnMaster> and you pass that section you said
14:18:49 <fizzie> Yes, but even the ()-parsing part of underload.b98 (which doesn't involve any fingerprints) has some infinite-loopy bug.
14:19:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, it fails at prime.bf however
14:19:41 <fizzie> I mean the underload ().
14:20:17 <AnMaster> pi2.bf -> floating point exception
14:21:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, but yes it somehow manages life.bf
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14:22:01 <AnMaster> wumpus.bf cause infinite loop I think
14:23:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh nice you don't do error checking on input, I typoed and ran it on a directory
14:23:37 <AnMaster> it seemed to actually try to execute that
14:24:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and if I run it under valgrind it fails at life.bf
14:24:23 <fizzie> I think it just executes some empty space in that case.
14:24:31 <fizzie> (The directory-as-input one, that is.)
14:24:39 <AnMaster> just dots for output and lots of valgrind errors
14:24:47 <AnMaster> so valgrind affect the behaviour too there
14:25:18 <AnMaster> in fact it breaks under valgrind all the time
14:25:26 <fizzie> That's not terribly surprising.
14:25:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm valgrind is useful for debugging, but I guess you will solve that in some other way
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14:27:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, um mycouser.b98 says it handles division by zero
14:27:58 <AnMaster> or is that just the constant folder?
14:28:46 <fizzie> Yes, that part does it correctly.
14:29:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, inputting a newline to the char test in mycouser acts oddly
14:29:29 <AnMaster> first it says 10, right, but then it waits for another newline
14:36:03 <fizzie> (build/jitfunge life.bf > life.txt &); sleep 20 ; killall jitfunge ; ls -l life.txt generates around 8.5 megabytes of output, compared to ~2.7 megs from cfunge (32bit, -O3, no fancy flags), here. I'm not sure jitfunge is in a benchmarkable state yet, though.
14:37:08 <oklopol> fizzie: are you making something like a befunge compiler?
14:37:28 <fizzie> oklopol: It's an interpreter which does just-in-time compilation to native x86 code.
14:37:50 <oklopol> oh to x86? you use like gcc or smth?
14:38:01 <fizzie> No, I just write some bytes.
14:38:38 <fizzie> The generated code is quite non-optimal, though.
14:39:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, here I get around 5.2 MB from each
14:40:15 <fizzie> Right, the cfunge build I did is probably 64-bit too, I just turned USE_64BIT off.
14:42:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, well for me both generates around 5 MB, sometimes slightly more for cfunge, sometimes more for jitfunge
14:42:28 <AnMaster> but that is profile feedback so...
14:44:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, with just plain -O3 for both I get results close to your
14:44:49 <AnMaster> 5 mb from jitfunge, around 1.8 from cfunge
14:45:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, however I don't know how large setup time jitfunge needs. cfunge have quite a bit of setup time
14:45:18 <fizzie> GCC is pretty good at the optimization game, compared to my code generation.
14:45:38 <jix> hmm optimization game => the game => i just lost it :(
14:45:40 <AnMaster> hm icc wouldn't help this is amd...
14:46:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and my build ifdefs out tracing there ;)
14:46:32 <jix> yesterday my gf made me lose the game 5 times... :(
14:46:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, and also disables threads, another speedup
14:50:36 <fizzie> There's quite a lot of small code snippets generated for life.bf, increasing the overhead there. Every time there's a branch or a merging of two code paths, jitfunge splits the code to separate functions there.
14:51:31 <jix> you try to jit compile befunge?
14:51:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, you may want to do superblock optimising
14:51:51 <AnMaster> jix, he isn't trying, he is doing it
14:51:54 <fizzie> I'm not sure "try" is the right verb here, since it already does life.bf.
14:52:09 <jix> -try then :)
14:54:40 <fizzie> It would be better to generate longer pieces of code, and jumps into them, but that's trickier.
14:55:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, better get it working properly before you start optimising like that?
14:59:59 <fizzie> Although I would probably get significantly longer snippets of code simply by always assuming either the true or false branch from an if, and continuing the trace that way.
15:00:19 <fizzie> Given that it's JIT, I should probably be collecting some statistics and doing branch prediction that way.
15:02:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, or compile it to code with a jump in?
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15:03:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, I mean, compile both paths with a compiled jne instruction or such at the |
15:06:11 <fizzie> Then I would really have to think harder when recompiling parts of code, since it would not be a distinct function I could just discard.
15:06:31 <fizzie> But sure, a single generated mess of code with jumps around would have less overhead.
15:06:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, you may have to discard several ones already
15:07:12 <ehird> fizzie: how fast is it? :p
15:07:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, for example suppose one cell is hit with two different deltas. then a p changes the value there
15:07:38 <AnMaster> then you have to discard multiple ones
15:08:31 <jix> ehird: nargh
15:11:36 <fizzie> Yeah, sure, but I can discard them easily and let the interpreter recompile when it notices it doesn't have code for that part.
15:12:08 <ehird> Ohh, fizzie HASN'T been monologuing this whole time
15:12:23 <ehird> That makes things less confusing
15:14:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, if you discard some jitted code, and the jitted code is placed in a mmaped region, how do you allocate new ones, try to find the first hole large enough?
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16:04:18 <ehird> Doctors from the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons have stated that Obama uses techniques of mind control in his speeches and campaign symbols. For example, one speech declared, "a light will shine down from somewhere, it will light upon you, you will experience an epiphany, and you will say to yourself, 'I have to vote for Barack.'"[19] The doctors observe that "Obama's logo is noteworthy. It is always there, a small one in the middle of the pod
16:04:36 <ehird> [[If elected, Obama would likely become the first Muslim President, and could use the Koran to be sworn into office.]] - also conservapedia
16:15:16 <jayCampbell> makes liberal conspiracy theories seem almost tame
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16:20:02 <jayCampbell> also from that site, "World Bank Group.s computer network has been compromised by cybercriminals"
16:20:40 <jayCampbell> their book section is full of real winners too
16:21:00 <jayCampbell> "HMOs are not "free market" alternatives, but rather an unholy partnership of government and corporate interests seeking monopolistic government protection to eliminate competition while changing the ethics of medicine from a Hippocratic ethic to a false corporate morality"
16:21:12 <ehird> dun dun DUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNN
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16:22:59 <jayCampbell> there was this awesome group last month running around in circles convincing themselves both candidates were Manchurian Candidates
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19:01:26 <fizzie> Meh, sensiblized the code generated by jitfunge, and managed to cut life.bf performance into 4 % (variant 1) or 30 % (variant 2) of what it used to be; the new system does generate longer pieces of code, but it ends up recompiling something all the time. I need a figure out a less complicated test case for the issue, though.
19:01:53 <ais523> fizzie: can you beat cfunge yet?
19:02:43 <fizzie> ais523: Well, the previous version was faster at life.bf with my setup; apparently with the right magical GCC flags (profile-guided optimization?) the life.bf speeds were just about even.
19:04:07 <fizzie> At least this current code-generation can turn >:#,_ into a function that actually does loop, instead of having a single function that is called (by the interpreter part) repeatedly for each character.
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19:41:05 <AnMaster> ais523, those magical flags included -fwhole-program -combine and -fprofile-use
19:46:17 <AnMaster> whoo I shaved another 0.10 seconds of mycology run time in cfunge. I think I may do even better
19:46:29 * AnMaster tries to rewrite the loop to make it easier to vectorise
19:47:30 <fizzie> I probably will be slow as heck in mycology, since I guess there's not much repeatedly executed stuff there.
19:50:14 <AnMaster> well mycology is where I'm really really really fast
19:50:36 <AnMaster> oh and very fast for an interpreter elsewhere
19:53:46 * AnMaster waits while -ftree-vectorizer-verbose=10 spews output
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19:55:33 <ais523> AnMaster: is that a gcc or icc option?
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19:56:24 <AnMaster> it is interesting to see that gcc detects some possible vectorisations that icc doesn't as well as vice verse.
19:57:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, at least in Swedish, but aspell doesn't like it in English
19:58:13 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and it needs -ftree-vectorize to do anything
19:59:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm it is spelled vise versa in Swedish
20:04:51 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and GCC generates faster programs on AMD64
20:05:08 <ais523> yep, not really surprising at all
20:05:47 <AnMaster> but icc is still useful on AMD, because it points out different issues and so on
20:07:57 <AnMaster> -march=k8 -msse3 -O3 -funroll-loops -DNDEBUG -fweb -ftracer -frename-registers -ftree-vectorize
20:08:17 <ais523> AnMaster: where are you directing the output, BTW?
20:08:42 <ais523> have you optimised cfunge to detect output going to devnull and not output it?
20:08:47 <AnMaster> with output to konsole it is 0m0.087s
20:09:29 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I have, as far as I know, not added any stuff that would make one or the other slower as an effect of making the other one faster
20:09:35 <AnMaster> I try to check using both anyway
20:09:46 <AnMaster> but I run the timings I report to /dev/null
20:10:40 <AnMaster> I mean with stdout the spread is about +/- 0.020 seconds but with /dev/null it is about +/- 0.010
20:13:20 <AnMaster> that is a profile feedback build
20:15:08 <AnMaster> and if I run with env -i PATH=/bin:/usr/bin TERM=$TERM it is reduced to around 0.025 seconds
20:20:13 <fizzie> I don't get this; I changed completely unrelated things, but now it doesn't have the life.bf "causes recompilations all the time" issue, and does 10.6 megabytes of life.bf output in 20 seconds.
20:20:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, these latest changes should help a lot for fungot, string handling was sped up a lot by reorganising pushing to allow gcc to vectorise the push loop
20:20:25 <fungot> AnMaster: i believe that is a very original thought....are you a poet? so.....you like atlanta? what color are your eyes?
20:21:12 <AnMaster> and they need you to use the relevant -march to take advantage of it, and -O3 and -ftree-vectorize
20:22:12 <AnMaster> anyway it helped a lot for y in the HRTI test
20:23:00 <AnMaster> UNDEF: T after M pushed 3 and a second T, after 675 ys, pushed 10899
20:23:49 <AnMaster> oh and I seriously want memrcpy() which would be like memcpy() but would reverse (byte by byte) the entire thing
20:24:04 <AnMaster> if I had such a thing and it was fast this could get even faster
20:24:17 <AnMaster> alternative would be to resign funge stacks to grow downwards
20:24:32 <AnMaster> but that would be a pain to grow
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20:25:20 <AnMaster> at least without being unportable
20:25:34 <fizzie> The jitfunge stack grows up, but that's pretty arbitrary.
20:25:57 <oerjan> don't resign. stacks should grow up dammit!
20:25:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes but I would need to copy stuff around instead of just reallocing if I were to do that
20:26:16 <ais523> fizzie: use Fungus as your processor and make the stack grow sidewats
20:26:22 <AnMaster> const size_t top = stack->top + len;
20:26:22 <AnMaster> for (ssize_t i = len; i >= 0; i--)
20:26:22 <AnMaster> stack->entries[top - i] = str[i];
20:26:37 <AnMaster> that is how my push 0"gnirts" look like now
20:27:00 <AnMaster> well it preallocates to make sure there is enough room before that of course
20:27:48 <AnMaster> ais523, that fungus emulator is superslow
20:28:00 <ais523> AnMaster: obviously, you'd have to build the hardware and run on there
20:28:23 <AnMaster> ais523, and how fast would it be compared to a high end AMD or Intel CPU?
20:28:38 <ais523> it would depend on how fast the chip you'd built was
20:28:56 <ais523> the type of typical chip that students use has a clock cycle of a few tens of nanoseconds
20:29:02 <ais523> so about 500 MHz or so
20:29:22 <ais523> so probably not competing with high-end CPUs
20:29:46 <AnMaster> ais523, even though it could potentially run funge more natively?
20:30:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, how far out in negative funge space does the ul stack go on ^ul (::^):^
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20:31:32 <fizzie> Depends on the stack limit.
20:31:47 <oerjan> i recall some discussion on implementing special chips for functional languages or something - the mainstream chips are just too fast to compete with even for such a special design
20:32:03 <oerjan> (i think it was on Lambda the Ultimate)
20:32:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: that was _decades_ ago
20:32:36 <fizzie> In fungot currently, cd*:* so it goes to X=-24336 before complaining.
20:32:37 <fungot> fizzie: i would need to involve nec page, so that's ok. well... x-chat doesn't. instead of " new code" do you mean? what kind of module system is quite nasty too:
20:32:47 <oerjan> the point was, the mainstream chips improve so fast that they will be better than yours before you get it out to market
20:32:58 <oerjan> or something like that
20:34:21 <AnMaster> ok I can't do static space for that
20:38:46 <fizzie> If you need a long-running benchmark, (xxxx)(~:*:*:*:*~):^:^(~~:^)~^:^ takes pretty damn long before finally giving an "out of time" message.
20:39:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, not really long running, I was using gprof
20:39:45 <jayCampbell> i'm pretty sure we're going to be programming DNA in some analogy of bfbasic soon
20:39:47 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
20:39:58 <fizzie> I'm not sure how new it is. Let's diff...
20:40:14 <AnMaster> tell me when you have the last one
20:40:30 <fizzie> Seems to be the latest, diff reports no changes.
20:40:49 <fizzie> Haven't done much to it lately.
20:41:03 <fizzie> This week I've been mostly writing jitfunge. :p
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20:41:18 <AnMaster> %ul (xxxx)(~:*:*:*:*~):^:^(~~:^)~^:^
20:41:27 <AnMaster> ^ul (xxxx)(~:*:*:*:*~):^:^(~~:^)~^:^
20:41:51 <fizzie> Took me some 90 seconds last time.
20:42:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, how comes it is so slow there?
20:42:32 <fizzie> It builds a long string and then repeatedly swaps it around.
20:42:47 <AnMaster> well pushing string on stack is what I made faster
20:43:00 <ais523> +ul ^ul (xxxx)(~:*:*:*:*~):^:^(~~:^)~^:^
20:43:10 <fizzie> It's a 16-kilobyte string.
20:43:14 <ais523> +ul (xxxx)(~:*:*:*:*~):^:^(~~:^)~^:^
20:43:18 <ais523> AnMaster: I typoed the program
20:43:41 <fizzie> 1.4 GHz Pentium-M is that fungot box.
20:43:41 <fungot> fizzie: today's ( one of scheme48, you can implement syntax-rules with it.
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20:43:58 <fizzie> And 32-bit cells, of course.
20:44:10 <fizzie> It's not a x86-64 platform, after all.
20:44:21 <fizzie> Probably enabled if it is by default.
20:44:48 <AnMaster> testthingy should have been faster
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20:47:27 <AnMaster> %ul (xxxx)(~:*:*:*:*~):^:^(~~:^)~^:^
20:47:29 <AnMaster> ^ul (xxxx)(~:*:*:*:*~):^:^(~~:^)~^:^
20:47:31 <AnMaster> +ul (xxxx)(~:*:*:*:*~):^:^(~~:^)~^:^
20:48:02 <ais523> which bot is using % as its character?
20:48:16 <ais523> ok, presumably that's fungot on optimised cfunge?
20:48:28 <AnMaster> ais523, it is on old pre-last-change cfunge
20:48:38 <AnMaster> last change made mycology a lot faster
20:48:46 <AnMaster> but I want to know if it slowed down fungot or not
20:48:59 <fungot> AnMaster: that's quite a lot of doors for people with prior programming experience?' the answer to your question is that
20:48:59 <fungot> ais523: ( that second one is horizontally displaced by 1 pixel with the hardware directly. :p)) for f(n-1) 2*f(n-2)
20:48:59 <fungot> AnMaster: we are asked to enter a player's name, but forget about the c2bf2c step
20:49:10 <ais523> sped it up by the look of it
20:49:22 <AnMaster> hm I guess other stuff running on my system is to blame
20:49:46 <AnMaster> for why my 2 GHz x86_64 is slower than that 1.4 GHz pentium M that fungot runs on
20:49:46 <fungot> AnMaster: in one article then. my ass was saved by moore. i know. it just doesn't look right
20:50:37 <AnMaster> 43:03 - 41:17 vs. 49:13 - 47:27
20:50:54 <AnMaster> anyone wants to do the messy modulo 60 calcs for me?
20:52:42 <AnMaster> which even on a single run should be enough to be significant
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20:57:36 <AnMaster> damn running that with gprof output on takes forever
20:57:52 <AnMaster> well I'll check on that when I get back
21:02:49 <AnMaster> I mean, how far into negative space
21:03:40 <AnMaster> because the main issue is that it seems to work a lot on outer fungespace
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21:09:02 <fizzie> The one in that test? Well, 16k cells that way, obviously.
21:10:18 * AnMaster allocates a 128 MB large static array
21:11:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok I got it down to 41 seconds
21:11:35 <AnMaster> #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_OFFSET_X (32768-1024)
21:11:35 <AnMaster> #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_OFFSET_Y 64
21:11:35 <AnMaster> #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X 32768
21:11:35 <AnMaster> #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y 512
21:11:55 <AnMaster> actually you probably want later Y
21:12:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway I believe that is 64 MB
21:13:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, thanks to linux allocating that lazily it won't take as much ram in fungot as that
21:13:44 <fungot> AnMaster: how would you know?
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21:18:59 <AnMaster> still it went far into non static space
21:24:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, err you grow something into positive space:
21:24:09 <AnMaster> Coords: {-16395,-20} {16384,2000}
21:27:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok I got it down to 10 seconds with this mad one:
21:27:43 <AnMaster> #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_OFFSET_X (32768/2)
21:27:43 <AnMaster> #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_OFFSET_Y 32
21:27:43 <AnMaster> #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X 32768
21:27:43 <AnMaster> #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y 2048
21:28:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, but please try to grow only in one direction
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21:31:44 <fizzie> That 16384 comes from the fact that it writes the string at x=0,y=10 for temporary storage when swapping it on in the stack.
21:31:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, so it writes it positive too?
21:32:05 <AnMaster> you can get either easily but not both
21:32:16 <AnMaster> try to write them all in the same direction
21:32:46 <fizzie> It's not that easy, since STRN can only write in one direction. Of course I could use the current stack-top 'x' coordinate for the temporary storage too, I guess.
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21:33:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, don't you use STRN in both cases?
21:33:26 <AnMaster> so why does one go positive and the other one negative?
21:33:43 <fizzie> Because the other one is a stack of strings; it's easier to grow that to the negative direction.
21:34:05 <AnMaster> well why does the other one go positive then?
21:34:15 <fizzie> Otherwise it's quite difficult to find how long the string is below the positive-stack-pointer.
21:34:46 <fizzie> With the stack growing to the negative direction, I can just G at the current top-of-stack and I get the topmost string.
21:35:11 <fizzie> And the other one grows to the positive direction because it's not a stack; when you P a string to temporary storage, that's the direction it writes to.
21:35:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, well, you can't get both, I recommend trying to put both in the same direction
21:35:36 <fizzie> I'm not sure I'm going to bother.
21:36:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, well by making one huge 512 MB static array I got execution time down to less than 10 seconds for it
21:36:10 <fizzie> The temporary storage start coordinate could follow the top of stack, but that's just extra work.
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21:36:39 <AnMaster> %ul (xxxx)(~:*:*:*:*~):^:^(~~:^)~^:^
21:36:39 <AnMaster> ^ul (xxxx)(~:*:*:*:*~):^:^(~~:^)~^:^
21:36:39 <AnMaster> +ul (xxxx)(~:*:*:*:*~):^:^(~~:^)~^:^
21:38:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, however why does it go to positive 2000?
21:38:55 <AnMaster> you could make this reasonable, 64 MB for 32-bit funge, if you didn't go that far
21:39:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, hope that will teach you something or whatever
21:40:34 <AnMaster> point is the less area you use for the static stuff the less memory you will waste and the more static you can use
21:42:33 <fizzie> There is no point in a Befunge irc-bot, really, no matter how much you'd like there to be.
21:42:48 <fizzie> I did what was convenient to code, not what was optimized for maximum efficiency.
21:43:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, but why do you use 2000 y?
21:43:18 <fizzie> So that there's room for 1900 lines of code, of course.
21:43:20 <ais523> <fizzie> There is no point in a Befunge irc-bot, really, no matter how much you'd like there to be. <--- wrong, you wouldn't have made one otherwise
21:43:36 <fizzie> However, you don't really need to have the static space go that far down.
21:43:48 <fizzie> It's only used for storing the programs; for execution, they're copied to y=8.
21:44:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh? 512 is enough? because then I could actually recommend it on x86
21:44:22 <fizzie> Source code length + 100 is enough.
21:44:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do you feel about 128 MB RAM?
21:45:04 <AnMaster> since it should be power of two
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21:46:45 <AnMaster> luckily the "fill with spaces" code is vectorised
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21:47:55 <AnMaster> %ul (xxxx)(~:*:*:*:*~):^:^(~~:^)~^:^
21:48:12 <ais523> AnMaster: where does that particular test program come from, btw?
21:48:48 <AnMaster> anyway this array size is way too big for normal usage
21:49:06 <AnMaster> if you got 128 MB RAM and/or swap to waste however:
21:49:08 <AnMaster> #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_OFFSET_X 16396
21:49:08 <AnMaster> #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_OFFSET_Y 64
21:49:08 <AnMaster> #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X 32768
21:49:08 <AnMaster> #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y 1024
21:49:37 <ehird> how does thutubot out of time ais523?
21:49:38 <AnMaster> a non-rectangular shape would be a LOT faster
21:49:42 <ehird> how can string rewriting languages know time.
21:49:54 <ais523> ehird: it counts the number of times round the main loop it goes
21:50:01 <ais523> in a number system which vaguely resembles binary but isn't
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21:52:10 <oerjan> well, don't the time again
21:52:42 <oklopol> well i can't really, i accidentally the WHOLE time
21:52:55 <oerjan> also, i will have to your salary
21:53:50 <oklopol> i think i'm gonna this book now.
21:56:43 <ehird> oklopol: the WHOLE book?!
21:57:28 <oklopol> no i'll prolly only like 20 pages more
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22:10:51 <fizzie> fungot's out-of-time check is also just a count of loop iterations, which is why it takes 90 seconds to time out with that program, but only a few for the standard infinite loop.
22:10:52 <fungot> fizzie: is it just personal preference?,
22:11:23 <ais523> fizzie: I'm counting the main loop of my Thutu program, not the main loop in the Underload program
22:12:08 <fizzie> Well, fungot counts the Underload interp loop, so it's pretty close to the amount of underload instructions actually executed.
22:12:08 <fungot> fizzie: you have 1 message. riastradh says: actually, it would be
22:12:29 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have a messaging service now too?
22:12:29 <fungot> fizzie: he annoyed the communist govt and was sent there.
22:14:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm working on improving STRN
22:14:54 <fizzie> #scheme's sarahbot had a feature where you could say "later tell <nick> <message>", and it would repeat that sort of message when <nick> next spoke. That's where the quote is from.
22:15:03 <AnMaster> however as a side effect of this it won't cast to char in between
22:16:38 <fizzie> STRN improvements should help the underload interp. Although the Funge code could do with some optimization too.
22:16:57 <AnMaster> well I noticed no difference for STRN really here
22:17:04 <oerjan> In the beginning, accidentally a universe.
22:17:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, thing that would help: knowing how much you actually are going to push/pop
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01:26:51 <jayCampbell> i think the world needs a web server in brainfuck
01:28:02 <jayCampbell> netcat will go up front, i'm not writing a tcp stack
01:38:26 <GregorR> jayCampbell: That won't work, with netcat you can only have one pipe. You should make it an [x]inetd client.
01:38:41 <jayCampbell> you have a multithreaded bf laying around?
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02:18:30 <GregorR> jayCampbell: Yes, yes I did.
02:22:27 <jayCampbell> hadn't seen fyb when i suggested brainfuck corewars
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02:46:15 <Slereah_> I for one welcome our new negro overlord
03:01:31 <jayCampbell> Slereah is demerited ten credits for violation of san angeles civil codes E15 and R3
03:14:53 <Slereah_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/Rabbie_Haggis!.jpg/800px-Rabbie_Haggis!.jpg
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03:39:36 <GregorR> I'm celebrating Obama's victory by setting my profile picture on Facebook to this: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30178018&l=1f7b9&id=1055580469
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06:48:35 <fizzie> Oh, wow... added -O3 to the build arguments in jitfunge just to see if the compiler affects the speed at all. life.bf speed jumped from 10 megs / 20 seconds -> 37 megs / 20 seconds. Even though it doesn't really change the generated code at all. Should profile the beast a bit, I guess.
06:53:39 <psygnisfive> if the generated code is the same, how is it faster?
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07:15:00 <fizzie> I guess there's a lot of overhead in calling the separate generated functions. The actual compilation time shouldn't really matter as long as it's not a self-modifying program.
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07:58:40 <jayCampbell> +bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]
07:58:55 <jayCampbell> +bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
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08:01:45 <fizzie> ^bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]
08:02:39 <fizzie> Heh, and life.bf output 37M -> 46M when I just changed the fungespace "get" function to use __attribute__ ((regparam (2))).
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08:47:37 <AnMaster> and well yes it would help on x86 a lot
08:48:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, cfunge already uses __attribute__ ((regparam (3))) for most stuff on x86
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10:29:58 <fizzie> Bleh, that was a lot of bug-hunting to find out that the regparm register order is eax, edx, ecx and not eax, ecx, edx.
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11:15:44 <pgimeno> I've just fixed the Bitxtreme home page, in case someone tried to access it with no success (I noticed it in the logs that there were some unsuccesful attempts)
11:50:24 <ais523> for another couple of hours probably
11:50:26 <AnMaster> do you have any idea why "POSIX.1-2008 marks gettimeofday() as obsolete."
11:50:33 <AnMaster> I have googled and found nothing
11:50:43 <AnMaster> and I can't figure out what it would recommend as replacement
11:50:46 <ais523> my guess is either that it isn't precise enough, or that it doesn't handle timezones correctly, or something like that
11:51:03 <ais523> remember, though, that POSIX deprecate a lot of things, they even deprecated tar a while ago...
11:51:04 <AnMaster> ais523, well what on earth should it be replaced with then?
11:51:20 <ais523> and something neither of us has ever heard of, almost certainly
11:52:12 <AnMaster> clock_gettime() is optional in POSIX.1-2001... but seems required in 2008 edition.
11:52:28 <ais523> clock_gettime is one of the functions I try to use for profiling in C-INTERCAL
11:53:02 <ais523> I do profiling the good old-fashioned and almost useless way, by grabbing a really precise timer as often as possible and counting the length of the intervals
11:53:11 <ais523> SunOS is the only operating system I ever got it to work on
11:53:25 <ais523> but that's part of the charm of it really, it's meant to be useful in theory but not in practice
11:53:41 <AnMaster> ok wtf why did that terminal lock up when I tried to tab complete
11:54:51 <ais523> probably a broken tab-completion script somewhere, bash tab-completion is Turing-complete in theory
11:55:20 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but usually ctrl-c will kill it
11:55:36 <AnMaster> however nothing, short of kill -9 on bash worked
11:55:40 <pgimeno> maybe it was busy with disk access?
11:55:57 <ais523> sometimes it's interesting to use top to see what's up with a process when it freezes
11:56:00 <AnMaster> pgimeno, I got a loud hd and no
11:56:30 <AnMaster> ais523, top said it was "not running", ps aux just showed the usual S
11:56:34 <pgimeno> network access? (that's happened to me once, I had a mounted samba resource but the computer wasn't there)
11:56:46 <AnMaster> pgimeno, nop, no such thing mounted
11:56:56 <ais523> well, I suppose it's possible you'd have a network drive in your manpath...
11:57:19 <AnMaster> well 1) I don't 2) I do use nfs, but the nfs stuff isn't mounted currently so...
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11:57:30 <AnMaster> 3) ps aux would show that as D in status col iirc
11:57:48 <ais523> yes, it would be D for network access
11:58:21 <asiekierka> ^ul (I'm bored enough to not talk by my---ehh. Oh well.)S
11:58:22 <fungot> I'm bored enough to not talk by my---ehh. Oh well.
11:58:23 <ais523> %ul (you still here?)S
11:58:33 <ais523> just fungot and thutubot, then
11:58:43 <ais523> hmm... we should add a new esolang to one of those bots some da
11:59:21 <asiekierka> One thing is sad about Unlambda: You can't ROT13 in it
11:59:41 <ais523> you can, you just effectively have to write a massive switch statement
11:59:44 <ais523> which is long and boring
11:59:58 <ais523> as each individual character has to be mentioned seperately, Unlambda has no notion of ASCII codes
12:01:04 <asiekierka> What about addition? How do numbers in Unlambda work?
12:01:08 <AnMaster> ais523, something like: clock_gettime(CLOCK_REALTIME, &my_timespec); I guess...
12:01:17 <AnMaster> well I'm not going to add that yet
12:01:19 <ais523> asiekierka: the same way as in Underload, although they look different
12:01:44 <asiekierka> Underload's 2 = :*, Underload's 4 = :::***
12:01:49 <ais523> whereas in Underload you make a function which makes n copies in a string, in Unlambda you make a function which runs a function n times
12:02:17 <ais523> so 0 = lambda(x) lambda(f) {x}, 1 = lambda(x) lambda(f) {f(x)}, 2 = lambda(x) lambda(f) {f(f(x))} and so on
12:02:38 <ais523> whoops, got the lambdas backwards
12:02:44 <ais523> those should all be lambda(f) lambda(x) {...}
12:03:28 <ais523> so 0 = `ki, 1 = i, and 2 is a mess: it's ``s``s`ks`ki``s``s`ks`kii
12:03:34 <ais523> although 2 simplifies to some extent
12:04:18 <pgimeno> you've gota love Iota then :)
12:04:43 <ais523> asiekierka: I don't think so, it's like Unlambda but more annoying, because you basically have to expand s and k too
12:05:18 <ais523> there's a number-generator somewhere which works for both Unlambda and Lazy K, I'm not sure where or who wrote it though
12:09:40 <pgimeno> IIRC Jot accepts any number
12:10:22 <pgimeno> oh wait, you mean produces an expression for a number, not a valid program...
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12:11:00 <ais523> probably too much for his client, it's busy trying to interpret all the stuff we say in here and crashes whenever it's too complicated or somebody says an infinite loop
12:11:53 * AnMaster waits for asiekierka's client to crash
12:12:04 <ais523> AnMaster: you didn't say what lang it was in
12:12:19 <ais523> maybe it doesn't know Underload
12:12:31 <ais523> asiekierka: but the null string's an infiniloop in DOBELA, IIRC
12:14:06 <asiekierka> ASIEBOT 0.1 - SPEC VERSION 2.0 - UPTIME: 0d:00h:00m:01s - RESTART COMPLETED
12:15:27 <asiekierka> sorry, ais523, the spec has been... REPAIRED!
12:15:45 <AnMaster> ais523, do you know if math functions being in libm is standard or not?
12:15:48 <asiekierka> Oh, and \n equals newline in my +do interpreter
12:16:02 <AnMaster> and if not, how to find out in a portable way
12:16:04 <ais523> AnMaster: sin, cos, etc are in libm everywhere I know except DOS/Windows where they're in libc
12:16:30 <AnMaster> ais523, well the 3p sin man page doesn't mention libm, that is what got me wondering
12:24:23 <asiekierka> Gatefreak: <> moves around the pointer, A ANDs the bit on the pointer with the bit in the SB (Storage Bit) O ORs the pointed bit with SB, ^ flips the pointed bit, X XORs the pointed bit with SB, * swaps the pointed bit with SB, _ cleans SB.
12:25:02 <asiekierka> !@ - Just like [], but it loops if SB is 1
12:26:10 <ais523> hmm... /me ponders brainfuck using ABSTAIN/REINSTATE/TRY AGAIN flow control
12:32:17 <ais523> asiekierka: I don't think it can store an infinite amount of data
12:34:42 <asiekierka> I wish for a programming game that uses an esolang
12:36:56 <asiekierka> I don't know one esolang that's useful for making a bot and wasn't taken
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12:43:16 <ais523> is that an asiekierka dameon, by any chance?
12:45:21 <asiekierka> Is there any good offline Piet editor?
12:45:33 <ais523> not as far as I know, although presumably most graphics programs would work
12:46:08 <ais523> that would do, I have KolourPaint over here which is effectively the Linux equivalent
12:46:19 <ais523> and it's what I'd probably use for Pier
12:46:25 <pgimeno> I've used The Gimp for that.
12:46:36 <ais523> pgimeno: overkill, surely?
12:46:51 <pgimeno> yes but I already had good handling of it :)
12:48:25 <asiekierka> How do you put numbers to Piet without I/O?
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12:49:57 <pgimeno> what do you mean to put numbers in Piet?
12:50:24 <asiekierka> What does the "value of the colour block" mean
12:51:30 <pgimeno> I'd have to refresh my Piet, but IIRC the only important thing is the color changes, not the actual color
12:51:57 <pgimeno> btw, the reference Piet program has a bug, I wrote a fixed version
12:52:17 <pgimeno> the reference Piet hello progra, that is
12:53:10 <asiekierka> push - Pushes the value of the colour block just exited on to the stack
12:53:38 <pgimeno> oh that, I think there's a table
12:54:28 <pgimeno> one sec, let me look at the spec
12:54:50 <pgimeno> ok, I think it's the area in pixels
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12:55:28 <pgimeno> "Each non-black, non-white colour block in a Piet program represents an integer equal to the number of codels in that block."
12:56:21 <asiekierka> So if i move 10 times through the same light red, then go to red, to execute pusg
12:58:10 <pgimeno> you have to move from a 10-pixel light red block to a red block
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13:17:45 <pgimeno> uh sorry, the original Hello program was correct, the one which was wrong was the Fibonacci program
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13:18:04 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/piet/fib2.php
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13:30:25 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/jitfunge$ cat test.b98
13:30:25 <fizzie> "NRTS"4( 67*S >:#,_ a, @
13:30:25 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/jitfunge$ build/jitfunge test.b98
13:30:53 <fizzie> Hee, there's some rudimentary support for fingerprints. Still a lot of work; haven't even started the mess with 'k'.
13:31:12 <ehird> fizzie: I wanna write a fingerprint!
13:31:23 <ehird> If only it'd compile :'(
13:32:23 <fizzie> Maybe I should fix the "doesn't build on OS X" thing -- how hard could it be?
13:32:47 <ehird> fizzie: What about the syscalls you use, though?
13:32:51 <ehird> Those won't work...
13:33:07 <fizzie> For I/O and friends I call C++ functions.
13:33:31 <ehird> fizzie: Surely it'd be more efficient, like, calling "putchar"?
13:35:14 <fizzie> Well, the interp_writechar function just calls putchar. I guess I could generate calls directly to the library function.
13:39:04 <fizzie> Curious, I'm not getting any DHCP replies from the WLAN around here.
13:40:16 <fizzie> That will make it very difficult for me to get the stuffs on the OS X laptop.
13:40:52 <ehird> fizzie: I could do the retarded thing I always do and give you an account on this machine, despite it having insanely liberal permissions set.
13:41:16 <fizzie> Maybe I'll just postpone OS X fixery; after all, the pre-christmas celebrationary thingie we have here starts in 20 minutes anyway.
13:42:11 <fizzie> They seem to start earlier and earlier every year.
13:43:31 <ehird> that is very early
13:47:19 <fizzie> The official justification was "blah blah end-of-the-year is so busy blah blah".
13:49:18 <fizzie> Incidentally, the web page for the place it is (some sort of cruise ship thing) advertises their pre-christmas party package "starting August 15th", so it could be worse.
13:49:31 <fizzie> Uh, September, I mean. Still.
14:01:02 <asiekierka> Hey, what was that language using emoticons
14:07:25 <asiekierka> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
14:07:51 <ais523> asiekierka: can you find a wayback version of wayback to have a look for it in
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14:24:00 <ais523> presumably http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tory is no use?
14:24:09 * ais523 just typed that to get the link
14:25:28 <ehird> it's just brainfuck
14:25:38 <ehird> with commands replaced with uk-conservative-party-disparaging phrases
14:25:40 <ais523> but the source is interesting
14:25:42 <ehird> and a SET command, iirc.
14:25:57 <ais523> "We will tax everything that can be taxed! We will abolish schools!"
14:26:17 <ehird> we will tax the abolishment of schools
14:26:46 <ais523> that was a flavour of what the lang looks like
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14:41:57 <ehird> uninteresting language + irc bot
14:49:09 <asiekierka> i wrote the whole code outputting "NICK asiebot"
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15:58:13 <ehird> stupid sites. and their downness
16:28:36 <AnMaster> well then who to ask hm... oerjan but he isn't here.
16:35:53 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm back now...
16:36:04 <ais523> but I didn't see the question
16:39:46 <AnMaster> ais523, I got help in another channel
16:40:07 <AnMaster> I was wondering about a math question
16:40:09 <ais523> I'm still interested as to what the question was
16:40:24 <AnMaster> the question was why is it so that if the sum of the digits in a number is evenly dividable by 3 then the original number is also evenly dividable by 3
16:40:26 <ais523> given that you listed me and oerjan I was wondering if it was INTERCAL...
16:40:31 <AnMaster> and I figured out a proof for it
16:40:43 <ais523> and it's because (10-1) is divisible by 3 and we use base 10, very roughly
16:41:16 <AnMaster> 1) if y (mod 3) === 0 then y*10^n (mod 3) === 0 for any positive integer n. It would be enough to prove it for n=1 and n=n+1
16:41:19 <AnMaster> 2) x+y (mod n) === x(mod n) + y(mod n)
16:41:32 <AnMaster> using those together it should be possible to make a proof I think
16:42:08 <AnMaster> since you can write a number as a sum of digit*10^n
16:47:49 <oklokok> you can trivially prove it by induction, although i'm not entirely sure that's it.
16:48:31 <oklokok> can't you just as well prove that for any N in y (mod N)?
17:00:16 <AnMaster> oklokok, well easy to show that is wrong: 7^2 (mod 4) is not same as 7^3 (mod 4)
17:00:58 <AnMaster> it seems that 7^n (mod 3) === 7^(n+1) (mod 3) but I haven't tried to prove it yet
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17:17:39 <AnMaster> ah in the end it all boils down to x^y (mod n) === (x (mod n))^y
17:19:22 <ais523> AnMaster: 10^n-1 is always divisible by 9 because it's 999999.....
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17:30:39 <asiekierka> SICKEN a 97 | WALK a | KICK a | STAY a
17:30:48 <asiekierka> an infinite loop saying "a" infinitely
17:30:55 <asiekierka> Remove KICK a and SICKEN a 97, you have a normal infinite loop
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17:54:34 <pgimeno> still no quine in Piet? hm...
17:58:37 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, and since 10 (mod 3) === 1 and 1^y = 1
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18:13:34 <ehird> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070809195732AAHoeFz the asker's reply to the response is a bit bizarre...
18:15:20 <ais523> maybe it was a yahoo answers troll who asked
18:15:31 <ehird> well, who spends $3500 that quickly?
18:15:44 <ehird> ah http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/7byu0/how_do_i_get_on_web_20/c068osg
18:15:51 <ais523> although I can believe that there would be people who'd ask questions that stupid, I don't know how they'd find yahoo answers in the first place
18:15:59 <ehird> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AjDMN.NB1ExAd.ZT5l1FtDXty6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20070205120422AAx9Xqu
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19:16:47 <oerjan> <asiekierka> One thing is sad about Unlambda: You can't ROT13 in it
19:17:14 <oerjan> i vaguely recall submitting a rot13 for unlambda to some page
19:18:01 <oerjan> as ais523 mentioned, you need to test for every character that can be changed
19:18:27 <oerjan> (the | function allows you to copy a character unchanged)
19:19:15 <asiekierka> No, i'm not making an Unlambda IRC bot
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19:19:47 <ais523> Unlambda isn't too hard to implement, apart from c and d
19:20:01 <ais523> maybe I should implement it in Thutubot some time
19:20:54 <ais523> I can handle most of the commands except d relatively easily
19:20:57 <oerjan> all that character testing (that was to asiekierka)
19:21:16 <oerjan> nothing impossible though i think
19:22:16 <asiekierka> Thank you. Now you have PING/PONG support.
19:22:52 <oerjan> if you detect : you can choose to analyze for a nick etc. up to the next space
19:23:22 <oerjan> hm it may not be that hard really (more than usual for unlambda)
19:23:46 <ais523> AnMaster: you meant to ping asiekierka I think
19:23:55 <asiekierka> I'm looking for an esolang that will be the best for my needs.
19:24:23 <ais523> <asiekierka> I'm looking for an esolang that will be the best for my needs. <--- that sentence almost contains a contradiction straight off
19:25:03 <oerjan> i think befunge and glass are "relatively" easy to program in
19:25:20 <ais523> and INTERCAL too, except for string processing
19:25:25 <ais523> and yes, glass is implemented
19:25:42 <oerjan> it's GregorR's language, also comes with EgoBot
19:25:48 <AnMaster> "Glass is considered unique by its creator because it combines the unintuitive postfix notation with object orientation, and also requires extensive use of a main stack, despite being (mostly) object oriented. No other language (that he knows of) is implemented like this, because it would be idiotic to do so."
19:25:58 <oerjan> (but EgoBot was not written in it)
19:26:44 <ehird> its in the first paragraph of the wiki article
19:26:52 <oerjan> asiekierka: yes, it's a part of this channel's log
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19:29:33 <asiekierka> And i hate how the glass_irc.exe goes to 1,22mb and still wants cygwin1.dll
19:29:56 <oerjan> asiekierka: http://www.miranda.org/~jkominek/rot13/unlambda/
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19:33:38 <oerjan> you mean there's a lot of repetition? :D
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19:33:58 <oklopol> you should've added some candy.
19:34:11 <oerjan> maybe, or possibly i used vim to search/replace
19:35:11 <oerjan> it was just a very simple implementation, i assume
19:35:29 <oerjan> consider the d's to be the candy ;)
19:36:51 <pgimeno> it's been *very* long since the archive's last update
19:37:11 <pgimeno> doesn't anyone have files to contribute to the archive?
19:37:36 <pgimeno> http://esolangs.org/files/
19:37:46 <AnMaster> pgimeno, oh I host my tarballs on sf.net and the development repos on my own server
19:37:52 <ais523> pgimeno: yes but I've been putting them all on eso-std.org recently
19:38:49 <pgimeno> the problem is that it will fail to be the reference archive for everything esolangs-related, which is the purpose for creating it
19:39:14 <AnMaster> pgimeno, there isn't even any web based upload page?
19:39:33 <AnMaster> or a public ftp "incomming" directory
19:39:42 <pgimeno> AnMaster: nope, graue is who runs the archive and can create svn users
19:39:54 <ehird> graue was in here a while ago
19:40:05 <pgimeno> I have access to svn and can upload in the name of someone
19:40:33 <AnMaster> pgimeno, well not sure I want to host it there then
19:40:47 <AnMaster> I prefer someone that is reasonably reachable
19:40:57 <ais523> graue's pretty responsive to email IME
19:41:05 <ais523> but mostly ignores esolangs if not being actively emailed
19:41:07 <pgimeno> AnMaster: hm, maybe you can find graue and ask him svn access
19:41:12 <ais523> AnMaster: In My Experience
19:41:27 <AnMaster> pgimeno, well I just got efunge and cfunge
19:41:53 <AnMaster> (they are all named after language of implementation)
19:42:22 <ais523> hmm... one thing I'm thinking of doing is a historical C-INTERCAL versions page
19:42:29 <ais523> see how many of them I can salvage from various placs
19:42:29 <ehird> AnMaster with svn access would be scary
19:42:37 <ais523> I have all the recent ones myself ofc
19:42:45 <ais523> hunting down the older ones could be fun
19:42:56 <AnMaster> pgimeno, I guess I could submit last cfunge for uploading there. hm
19:43:18 <pgimeno> AnMaster: that'd be cool, I guess, but is there a cfunge page in the wiki?
19:43:28 <AnMaster> pgimeno, it is mentioned on the befunge page
19:43:33 <AnMaster> since it is a befunge implementation
19:43:49 <asiekierka> I'm wondering how do you do subclasses or something in Glass
19:43:53 <pgimeno> I thought they were vairants
19:43:53 <asiekierka> {k[d(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o)o.?]}{M[m(_e)k!(_k)k.d]}
19:44:58 <pgimeno> AnMaster: you mean if I want it in the archive? sure, why not? there are the impl/ directories just for that
19:45:12 <asiekierka> {K[k(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o)o.?]}{M[m(_e)K!(_k)K.k]} - doesn't work either
19:45:23 <AnMaster> pgimeno, http://downloads.sourceforge.net/cfunge/cfunge-0.3.3.tar.bz2 is download.
19:45:34 <AnMaster> releases happen every other month or so
19:46:29 <AnMaster> asiekierka, there is an example hello world on the wiki
19:47:54 <AnMaster> pgimeno, efunge haven't had it's first release yet (public bzr repo exists)
19:48:06 <AnMaster> http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/ http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/efunge/
19:48:33 <AnMaster> (for efunge most work is currently happening in a feature branch)
19:51:15 <pgimeno> AnMaster: I'm looking for a list of older versions of cfunge but I don't know how to get the listing
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19:52:11 <ais523> did you expect that to not work?
19:52:34 <oerjan> is that written in Glass?
19:52:48 <asiekierka> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o)o.?]}
19:53:11 <ehird> !glass m(_o)O!"Hello world!"(_O)o.?
19:53:43 <asiekierka> I can also go the other way, and run the glass interpreter through socat
19:53:44 <oerjan> so no one knows how it is used?
19:54:06 <oerjan> GregorR: what is the format for using an IRC glass bot?
19:54:14 <ais523> do you have the source?
19:54:18 <ais523> if so, that should be a giveaway
19:55:18 <oerjan> i assume that example program is copypaste so should work...
19:55:58 <oerjan> hm wait i think i have glass on this account
19:56:42 <oerjan> "To run it, modify glassIRC.sh to fit your needs then:
19:56:44 <oerjan> nc -e ./glassIRC.sh irc.freenode.net 6667
19:57:24 <asiekierka> Until i make the other project of course
20:01:17 <ehird> someone make it run an infinite loop.
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20:07:08 <asiekierka> Isn't this code snippet an infinite loop?
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20:12:47 <oerjan> you probably want <1> not 1
20:13:01 <asiekierka> but that's not the problem, socat still terminates after a second
20:13:52 <oerjan> maybe an empty command list in /\ isn't allowed
20:14:13 <ais523> does anyone here, probably AnMaster, know how to sort a list with standard Unix commands by the letters of the list in reverse order?
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20:18:18 * ais523 is on a quest to find as many historical versions of INTERCAL as possible
20:18:25 <ais523> I have all the ones back to 0.18, except 0.23 which was apparently never released
20:18:46 <ais523> also the DOS port of 0.15
20:18:57 <ais523> the very early ones are apparently still on Usenet somewhere, I'll try to find them
20:20:20 <ehird> asiekierka: that would be 01.0
20:23:53 <pgimeno> AnMaster: is 0.2.1 the first version you uploaded to SF?
20:23:54 <ais523> ehird: 0.01 is as it happens the earliest version
20:24:05 <ehird> but that makes no sense
20:24:08 <ais523> corresponding to what would be 1.0 in other projects
20:24:15 <ehird> so it never had a beta :p
20:24:26 <ehird> that's actually 10.0
20:24:31 <ais523> in INTERCAL major changes are released as .0 releases
20:24:36 <ais523> and bugfixes are .1, .2 etc
20:24:39 <ais523> at least for C-INTERCAL
20:24:42 <ehird> or 01.0 but that's odd
20:24:51 <ehird> ais523: why wasn't it 0.1
20:26:51 <ais523> also, I just replied to a Usenet post from 2003
20:26:58 <ais523> because it hadn't been answered
20:28:38 <pgimeno> five years for an usenet reply, wow
20:32:35 * oerjan recalls when usenet posts _expired_, dammit
20:32:55 <ais523> they still do, just first Deja than Google managed to catch copies of them before they vanished
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20:36:26 <AnMaster> <pgimeno> AnMaster: is 0.2.1 the first version you uploaded to SF? <-- hm not sure
20:36:44 <AnMaster> pgimeno, you can check out the bzr repo
20:36:50 <AnMaster> as mentioned on the home isite
20:37:38 <AnMaster> pgimeno, the bzr got tags for each release
20:38:33 <AnMaster> pgimeno, but iirc in the beginning I hosted it elsewhere yes
20:38:58 <AnMaster> tarballs aren't around I guess, since the whole revision history contains the info
20:46:46 <ais523> anyone here have versions of C-INTERCAL before 0.18, by the way?
20:46:53 <ais523> sitting around on a hard drive somewhere, maybe?
20:48:09 <ehird> i seem to have a 0.3 here
20:48:24 <ais523> ehird: were you even alive then?
20:48:35 <ais523> I was thinking more likely someone like oerjan would have one
20:48:47 <ehird> ais523: i likely wasn't alive then, no
20:48:50 <ehird> as it was probably the 80s
20:49:17 <ehird> most things are older than me
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20:50:23 * oerjan realizes he doesn't have intercal at all
20:50:51 <ais523> given that you coded an Unlambda interp in it
20:50:54 <oerjan> i assume the compiler was only on my office PC before i moved
20:50:56 <ais523> did you get it working first time by hand?
21:05:01 <ais523> ugh, I've tracked sufficiently far back now that email addresses used exclamation marks
21:05:14 <ais523> one of the servers which hosted intercal 0.9 apparently still exists, but it isn't serving intercal any more
21:06:55 <oerjan> you can start to worry when the people start to be _named_ Ugh
21:07:16 <pgimeno> AnMaster: I've found tarballs for 0.2.1 and 0.3.0 through 0.3.3
21:08:13 <pgimeno> AnMaster: I was going to upload that, if you don't mind
21:11:36 * ais523 found intercal-0.3.shar
21:11:48 <ais523> possibly one of the oldest extant versions
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21:13:41 <ehird> ais523: 0.1 should be easy
21:13:53 <ehird> i mean, its famous
21:14:47 <ais523> the manual existed even before 0.1
21:14:52 <ais523> it was written back in 1972
21:17:02 <ais523> me arbitrarily assigns version numbers to C-INTERCAL 1.3 and 2.3
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21:30:35 <Slereah_> http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=QcSfj5LxDbI&
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00:02:14 <ehird> http://www.virtualstapler.com/
00:15:02 <GregorR> I have a staple-free stapler.
00:41:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but... befunge's commands are just good enough.
00:51:04 <fizzie> Bleh, that was a long pre-christmas party; it's almost 03 am in this time zone.
00:51:18 <fizzie> I don't think I'm in any condition to work on jitfunge right now.
01:07:29 <jayCampbell> considering it's been almost a year since christmas, yeah, that's a long party
01:13:53 <fizzie> Well, it was an early pre-christmas thing. People did complain about it being too early for that sort of thing.
01:24:46 <GregorR> I guess you don't celebrate Thanksgiving.
01:25:01 <GregorR> (What with that being an American holiday)
01:25:19 <GregorR> Thanksgiving is the de facto cutoff for Christmas-related events :P
01:25:48 <warrie> Dear warrie: Now that you've entered middle school, please apply for our college. The deadline is tomorrow.
01:26:30 <GregorR> Dear warrie: Now that you've applied for college, please apply for graduate school. The deadline is last Monday.
01:29:20 <warrie> You mean four days ago or eleven days ago?
01:29:26 <warrie> Or even five or twelve days ago?
01:41:03 <fizzie> We know about thanksgiving, but it's not really a holiday.
01:41:51 <fizzie> And the company providing the cruise ship for today's celebrationationary things started their pre-christmas cruise offering on September 15th; now *that* would've been very pre.
01:42:21 <fizzie> Anyhow, must sleeps now. Will probabley be a bit hungey-overy tomorrow. :/
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08:58:16 <asiekierka> I want to change my mac address on linux
08:58:32 <asiekierka> but ifconfig wlan1 down | ifconfig wlan1 hw ether xx:xx:xx:xx:xx:xx | ifconfig wlan1 up doesn't work
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11:56:11 <pgimeno> AnMaster: what name do I use?
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12:00:58 <pgimeno> the name you want to appear
12:01:24 <AnMaster> pgimeno, it is what it says in the cfunge GPL headers anyway ;P
12:01:54 <pgimeno> is this OK then?: svn commit -m "Add Arvid Norlander's Befunge implementation, cfunge"
12:02:17 <AnMaster> well I have made several befunge implementations, not all finished
12:02:29 <AnMaster> cfunge is the most completed and well tested one
12:02:48 <pgimeno> "Add cfunge, one of Arvid Norlander's Befunge implementations" - better?
12:06:05 <pgimeno> commit finished - now all that remains is that the cron script that refreshes the archive is triggered.
12:07:37 <pgimeno> Amazingly, there was no Befunge implementation at all in the archive.
12:09:05 <pgimeno> http://esolangs.org/svn/esofiles/befunge/impl/
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14:44:06 <oklopol> Corun are you an antigrammer?
14:45:41 <Corun> I'm an antioklopol
14:47:31 <Corun> I also just released a mac app with a friend: http://thecosmicmachine.com
14:47:50 <Corun> </add-vert-eyes-mint>
14:47:58 <ehird> Corun: By "RSS" does that include "Atom"?
14:48:03 <ehird> If not, /me whacks Corun
14:48:57 <ehird> Darn, Leopard only. oh well
14:49:28 <Corun> Yeah it does include Atom
14:50:40 <Corun> Clearly all the cool applications
14:50:45 <Corun> So you should get it
14:50:47 <oklopol> heh, i don't use any of those things.
14:51:07 <Corun> That means you suck
14:51:10 <Corun> We worked this out before hand
14:51:13 <ehird> Corun: Name some that are actually cool apart from yourds
14:51:21 <Corun> Either people will use a few services
14:51:27 <Corun> Or they suck, so it doesn't matter if they buy or not
14:51:52 <ehird> Corun: oklopol is an adherent of the oko programming religion.
14:51:56 <ehird> using things is pretty anti-oko.
14:52:20 <ehird> oklopol: twitter is where you have a 140 character box.
14:52:23 <ehird> that updates your status.
14:52:29 <ehird> and you can look at other people's statuses.
14:53:16 <oklopol> well that sounds useful :D
14:53:44 <oklopol> irc is enough for most socialness
14:53:56 <ehird> being useful is not an advantage
14:54:39 <oklopol> no, it's not, and it was sarcasm; not being useful is not a good thing either
14:55:32 <ehird> oklopol: is oklotalk useful?
14:55:39 <oklopol> rss might be useful if the internet was better structured and i could create my own rss feeds for things i need them for.
14:55:53 <oklopol> oklotalk is. usefulness doesn't apply
14:56:01 <ehird> just write a python script that mangles the html into a feed
14:56:14 <oklopol> well yeah i could do something like that.
14:56:22 <oklopol> but the issue is the whole html thing sucks ass
14:56:38 <oklopol> things should be sent to me as objects, so i wouldn't have to parse them
14:57:29 <ehird> oklopol: i agree with your every word
14:58:33 <oklopol> well anyway, i don't see any reason for serialization really anywhere. i don't see why oses should even let you manipulate bitstreams
14:59:01 <ehird> infinite green robots
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14:59:09 <oklopol> but, i think it's time to read a book
14:59:33 <oklopol> it's interesting i get only like 50 pages read a day, even though i don't really do anything else.
15:00:02 <oklopol> that's only like 18000 pages per year
15:01:21 <oklopol> i think we should sing a bit
15:02:11 <oklopol> "Connect with the people around you." <<< is this actually the facebook slogan?
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15:48:28 <fungot> butttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt ...too much output!
15:49:20 <ehird> ^ul (but)S((s)S:^)^
15:49:22 <ehird> ^ul (but)S((s)S:^):^
15:49:22 <fungot> butsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ...too much output!
15:49:25 <ehird> ^ul (butt)S((s)S:^):^
15:49:26 <fungot> buttssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ...too much output!
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15:49:40 <Mony> ^ul (butt)S((s)S:^):^
15:49:41 <fungot> buttssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ...too much output!
15:49:52 <oklopol> haha your butt is too large
15:50:04 <Mony> ^ul (Pl)o((o)P:^):^
15:50:09 <oklopol> seems i was lagging quite badly
15:50:19 <Mony> witch language ?
15:50:25 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:50:35 <ehird> ^ul (plo)S((p)S:^):^
15:50:35 <fungot> ploppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp ...too much output!
15:50:40 <ehird> Mony: language is underload
15:50:52 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
15:51:34 <Mony> ^ul (Hello, world!)S
15:52:00 <oklopol> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)^S( )S~:^):^
15:52:19 <oklopol> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S~:^):^
15:52:19 <fungot> xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xx ...too much output!
15:53:48 <oklopol> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*~:^):^
15:53:49 <fungot> xxxxxx xxxxx xxxx xxx xx x ...too much output!
16:05:15 <oklopol> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:(~:^)~(!())~^^):^
16:06:58 <oklopol> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:(~:^)~(!())~^^^):^
16:08:13 <oklopol> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:((test)S~:^)~(!())~^^^):^
16:08:28 <oklopol> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:(~:^)~(!())~^^(test)S^):^
16:08:39 <oklopol> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:(~:^)~(!())~^^S^):^
16:08:48 <oklopol> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:(~:^)~(!())~^S^^):^
16:08:49 <fungot> xxxxxx !()!()!()!()!()xxxxx !()!()!()!()xxxx !()!()!()xxx !()!()xx !()x ...out of stack!
16:09:38 <oerjan> usually out of stack is pretty immediate
16:09:39 <oklopol> i'm simply trying to make it stop at one.
16:10:17 <oklopol> i can write it with my eyes closed.
16:10:23 <oklopol> it's hard to recurse with a condition
16:11:41 <oklopol> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:(~:^)~(!())~^^^):^
16:12:06 <oklopol> Corun: you're right i do suck.
16:13:45 <oklopol> ^ul (:::::*****):(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*(x)~^S
16:17:04 <oklopol> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:S:(~:^)~(!())~^^^):^
16:17:04 <fungot> xxxxxx ::::::!!()()******
16:17:16 <oerjan> i think applying a number to (!()) would be a good zero test
16:17:23 <oklopol> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:(~:^)~(!())~^:S^^):^
16:17:23 <fungot> xxxxxx !()!()!()!()!()
16:17:43 <oerjan> is that what you are doing?
16:17:45 <oklopol> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:(~:^)~(!())^^^):^
16:17:45 <fungot> xxxxxx xxxxx xxxx xxx xx x ...too much output!
16:18:05 <oklopol> i did number^0 here. that was the error
16:18:10 <oklopol> but, seems it still doesn't work
16:20:25 <oerjan> which part is the decrement operation?
16:20:51 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p131311341.txt
16:21:19 <oklopol> i've removed the ~ after the zero
16:22:18 <oerjan> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:(!())~^(!())~^^^):^
16:22:45 <oerjan> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:(!())~^(!())~^^:^):^
16:22:49 <oklopol> oerjan: i thought it'd stop at "xx", because when n-1=1, it doesn't recurse
16:23:11 <oklopol> you need to do 0^number, so (!())^
16:24:14 <oerjan> (!())^ = !() so is useless
16:24:35 <oerjan> still, the rest is not working
16:26:39 <oerjan> need to get the copy of the number under the program
16:28:38 <oerjan> ah that's why you have (~:^)
16:29:18 -!- jix has joined.
16:29:57 <oerjan> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:(~:^)~(!())~^^^):^
16:30:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, idea: write a underload program that looks like a series of smilies
16:30:28 <oklopol> ^ul (!())(!())^(x)~^S(yyy)S(!())()^(x)~^S(yyy)S()(!())^(x)~^S(yyy)S
16:30:58 <AnMaster> you would need balanced smilies
16:31:26 <oklopol> 0^0=1, but 0^x=0 for any other x
16:31:50 <oklopol> had those completely wrong
16:32:44 <oklopol> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:(~:^)~(!())~(!())^^^):^
16:32:52 <oklopol> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:(~:^)~(!())~(!())~^^^):^
16:33:08 <oerjan> ^ul (:::::*****)(~:(x)~^S( )S:(:)~^(!!()())*~(*)~^*:()~(!(~:^))~^^^):^
16:33:09 <fungot> xxxxxx xxxxx xxxx xxx xx x
16:33:22 <oerjan> you had the branches reversed :)
16:33:55 <oklopol> how exactly do you unreverse them?
16:34:13 <oerjan> i switched the part with () with the part with (~:^)
16:34:54 <oklopol> yeah, it wasn't that hard, i just failed bad.
16:37:33 <oerjan> one probably should write a trace of the stack when designing such stuff
16:40:57 * oerjan realizes he has no proof oklopol didn't
16:47:59 <jix> ^ul (Hallo)
16:48:07 <jix> ^ul (Hallo)S
16:50:48 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:51:03 * jix likes underload
16:51:23 <Mony> ^ul (^ul (Hallo)S)S
16:54:59 <oerjan> ^ul ((^ul )S:aSS)(^ul )S:aSS
16:55:00 <fungot> ^ul ((^ul )S:aSS)(^ul )S:aSS
16:56:11 <oerjan> ^ul ((^ul (Hallo))S:aSS)(^ul (Hallo))S:aSS
16:56:12 <fungot> ^ul (Hallo)((^ul (Hallo))S:aSS)(^ul (Hallo))S:aSS
16:57:23 <oklopol> oerjan: what do you mean trace of the stack?
16:57:25 <oerjan> ^ul ((Hallo)!(^ul )S:aSS)(Hallo)!(^ul )S:aSS
16:57:25 <fungot> ^ul ((Hallo)!(^ul )S:aSS)(Hallo)!(^ul )S:aSS
16:57:44 <oerjan> oklopol: keeping track of how it evolves...
16:57:48 <oklopol> it's just i had the exponentiation-if-then-else rule wrong.
16:58:11 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p131311341.txt well this one
16:58:34 <oklopol> i kinda keep track of the stack, the problem is i do it on a high level, and had something on a lower level wrong.
17:00:38 <oklopol> the problem was the exponentiation
17:00:42 <oklopol> i had it wrong in two ways.
17:01:19 <oerjan> (!()) can be replaced with any idempotent command
17:01:53 <oerjan> so you get () if n=0, (!()) otherwise
17:02:27 <oklopol> well, the problem is i never really looked at the details of why 0^0=1 in underload
17:02:52 <oklopol> probably trivial, but i don't see it.
17:03:38 <jix> how do you encode numbers in underload?
17:03:51 <oerjan> since (!()) is idempotent, repeating it changes nothing
17:04:20 <oerjan> so the only question is whether you have any at all
17:04:50 <oerjan> jix: ::::**** is 5, for example
17:05:15 <fungot> fnordfnordfnordfnordfnord
17:06:05 <jix> now i get why (!()) is zero
17:06:17 <oerjan> or rather, that is 5 executed
17:06:45 * jix thinks about writing a small language => underload compiler
17:06:50 <oerjan> so (::::****) is 5 as a numeral
17:07:05 <oerjan> and with this * is multiplication and ^ is exponentiation
17:07:25 <oerjan> (obviously intentional naming)
17:07:39 <jix> ^ul (!())^(!())S
17:07:52 <oerjan> ^ul (x)(:*)(::::****)^^S
17:07:53 <fungot> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
17:08:00 <jix> ^ul (!())(!())^S
17:08:48 <fungot> oerjan: hmm. maybe i should go
17:09:00 <jix> ^ul (x)(!())(!())^SS
17:09:20 <jix> ^ul (!())(!())^aS
17:09:28 <oerjan> jix: oh the result was () so S printed nothing
17:09:29 <jix> which is one ah....
17:09:47 <oerjan> and fungot special cases on no output
17:09:48 <fungot> oerjan: my point precisely. judaism is an infinite stream of the computer clubs he's apparently been associated with them if you don't
17:10:11 <oerjan> fungot: that's some serious conspiracy theory you've got there
17:10:12 <fungot> oerjan: which first was a bit physically verbose
17:11:19 <oerjan> jix: compiling into underload only works for no input languages, obviously
17:46:04 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:08:58 -!- oklopol has joined.
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18:41:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | probably I could add support for 128-bit integers without much trouble (I already have 64-bit long long due to C99).
18:42:55 <ehird> optbot: AnMaster quotes? How crass.
18:42:55 <optbot> ehird: ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !d !dup ~dup
18:42:58 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | that doesn't imply that I will implement it even if you define it.
18:43:05 <ehird> optbot: That's another AnMaster quote.
18:43:05 <optbot> ehird: oh I just realised what I pasted makes no sense
18:43:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | probably.
18:43:23 <ehird> optbot: AnMaster has probably said that at one point.
18:43:25 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | mind you, within vim 1GgqG works just as well..
18:43:58 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | profit.
18:44:06 <AnMaster> ehird, that would have been you
18:44:20 <oerjan> ok that's not AnMaster. he's never had anything to do with profit *ducks*
18:44:45 <ehird> oerjan: the previous one even moreso, he would never use vim
18:44:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed, I suggest it should be owned by the people ;)
18:46:04 * oerjan hits AnMaster with some means of production ===\___/
18:52:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, but why have you replaced your frying pan with one made in plastic foam?
18:53:51 <oerjan> hm, actually this is lego
18:54:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm a Danish conspiracy?
18:54:45 <oerjan> either that or David Morgan-Mar
18:55:42 <AnMaster> he wouldn't give the lego away
18:56:31 * oerjan starts suspecting ehird
18:56:44 <ehird> oerjan: but i like being hit by the frying pan
18:57:12 <oerjan> AnMaster: you better be careful then
18:57:55 <oerjan> i thought it was just your thick skull
18:59:02 <AnMaster> of course the hard hat is made to look like hair, going around in a hard hat on irc would look strange
18:59:16 <AnMaster> hm maybe not, considering how strange things usually are on irc
19:00:03 * oerjan wonders if GregorR has a hard hat.
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19:02:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is the link to that page now again?
19:03:02 <pgimeno> AnMaster: the archive is updated at last, http://esolangs.org/files/befunge/impl/
19:03:30 <oerjan> http://codu.org/hats.php
19:14:14 <oklopol> 4 and 8 look the same to me.
19:16:06 <ehird> oklopol: yeah they are the same
19:16:18 <oerjan> they have differen descriptions
19:16:45 <ehird> oerjan: one has something in the side
19:16:57 * oerjan swats a runaway letter ----### t
19:17:01 <oklopol> they don't look *exactly* the same, but i bet you could get a greater difference just by muffing one of them up.
19:25:02 <jix> ^ul a(:::***)^S
19:25:08 <jix> ^ul (a)(:::***)^S
19:25:15 <fungot> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ...too much output!
19:25:42 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:25:45 <oerjan> ^ul ((...too much output! )S:^):^
19:25:45 <fungot> ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...t ...too much output!
19:25:54 <oerjan> +ul ((...too much output! )S:^):^
19:25:55 <thutubot> ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output!
19:26:03 -!- oklopol has joined.
19:27:13 <oerjan> +ul (( ...too much output!)S:^):^
19:27:13 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:27:14 <thutubot> ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output!
19:27:30 -!- oklopol has joined.
19:28:04 <Mony> ^ul (LOL)S:^):^
19:30:21 <fizzie> fungot also only checks the output lengths after writing a complete string, but then it writes the " ...too much output" to a fixed offset, so it cuts in the middle there.
19:30:22 <fungot> fizzie: ( as a method) that overloads more than one statement on every line, that will be
19:31:43 <fizzie> Otherwise someone might build a string of arbitrary length on the stack and just S it out. Well, unless I did the checking before writing, but where's the fun in that.
19:33:44 <ehird> ^ul (a):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*S
19:33:44 <fungot> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ...too much output!
19:33:50 <ehird> ^ul (a):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*S
19:33:54 <ehird> ^ul (a):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*S
19:33:58 <ehird> ^ul (a):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*S
19:34:08 <ehird> ^ul (a):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*S
19:34:12 <ehird> ^ul (a):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*S
19:34:18 <ehird> ^ul (a):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*S
19:34:18 <fungot> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ...too much output!
19:34:26 <fizzie> +ul (a):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*S
19:34:26 <thutubot> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
19:34:36 <fizzie> Heh, that looks like it checks only after writing.
19:34:49 <ehird> +ul (a):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*S
19:34:49 -!- thutubot has quit (Excess Flood).
19:35:00 <ehird> fizzie: should I restart it?
19:35:30 <fizzie> It's always good to have a redundant Underload-bot.
19:36:16 <ehird> Should i ILLEGALLY RELEASE the sauce code? :-P
19:36:27 <ehird> 198 thutubot/thutubot.t2
19:36:45 <oerjan> ^ul (a):*(:*)(:*):*::*^^S
19:37:14 <fizzie> Fungot is 483 lines already.
19:37:30 <fizzie> My Funge, it's bloaty.
19:37:40 <oerjan> ^ul (a):*(:*)(:*)::*^^S
19:37:41 <fungot> :*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*
19:38:45 <oerjan> ^ul (a):*(:*)(:*)(::*)^^S
19:38:56 <oerjan> ^ul (a):*(:*)(:*)(::*)^^^S
19:38:56 <fungot> :*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*
19:40:32 -!- thutubot has joined.
19:40:55 <ehird> How do you get Underload to output a newline when there are no newlines? That is a trick question, you can't.
19:41:02 <ehird> Therefore, I am unsure how to hax0r thutubot.
19:41:03 <oerjan> ^ul (a):*(:*)(:*)::*^^S
19:41:04 <fungot> :*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*
19:41:13 <oerjan> ^ul (a):*(:*)(:*)::*^^^S
19:42:31 -!- Ilari has joined.
19:43:30 <oerjan> +ul (<CTCP>ACTION is unhax0rable!<CTCP>)S
19:44:10 <oerjan> +ul (a):*(:*)(:*)::*^^^S
19:44:42 * oerjan wonders what the heck he is doing wrong
19:46:09 <fizzie> It will apply :*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:* to aa, making an 128-kilobyte string.
19:46:42 <fizzie> Well, a long one, anyway.
19:46:45 <ehird> +ul (a):*(:*)(:*)::*^^^S
19:46:45 <ehird> +ul (a):*(:*)(:*)::*^^^S
19:46:46 <ehird> +ul (a):*(:*)(:*)::*^^^S
19:46:46 <ehird> +ul (a):*(:*)(:*)::*^^^S
19:46:57 <ehird> Hellllllllooooooooo? thutubot?
19:46:58 <oerjan> i must be mixing up something
19:47:14 <oerjan> existance is hard to prove
19:47:20 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
19:48:02 <ehird> +ul PRIVMSG #esoteric :World)
19:48:40 <thutubot> :*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*
19:49:15 -!- jix has joined.
19:50:27 * oerjan hits himself again ===\___/
19:50:54 <oerjan> +ul (a)(:*)(::**):*^^S
19:50:55 <thutubot> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
19:52:02 <oerjan> ^ul (a)(:*)(::**):*^^S
19:52:02 <fungot> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ...too much output!
19:52:17 <ehird> +ul (**SSa:)**SSa:
19:52:31 <ehird> +ul (***SSa:)*SSa:
19:52:34 <ehird> +ul (***SSa:)***SSa:
19:52:41 <ehird> +ul (***SSa*:)***SSa:
19:52:59 <ehird> Why is that outputting?
19:53:00 * oerjan wonders what the heck ehird is trying to do
19:53:01 <fizzie> Anything in the form (...)* will do "* out of stack".
19:53:19 <ehird> +ul (:::SSa:):::SSa:
19:53:33 <ehird> +ul (::SSa:)::SSa:
19:54:00 <ehird> I got back to the original.
19:54:47 <ehird> +ul (aSS)(aSS)a*SSS
19:54:54 <ehird> How did those {{}}s appear?!
19:55:01 <fizzie> Implementation detail, I think.
19:55:10 <fizzie> From what I've heard, {}s are used internally for something.
19:55:45 <oerjan> it's not legal input though
19:55:59 <ehird> [19:55] thutubot: {}
19:56:07 <fizzie> ({})* has no output-generation.
19:56:14 <ehird> fizzie: But it's an error
19:56:16 <ehird> It's an out of stack
19:56:46 <fizzie> It did behave a bit illogically when {s were involved.
19:59:14 <oklopol> yeah that's the only way to get file io with unlambda
19:59:46 <fizzie> No, I mean, I copied the example from my irclogs.
20:02:08 -!- kar8nga has joined.
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20:26:57 <fizzie> But that's just a trivial version of the ISO-standard (:aSS):aSS one.
20:27:13 <fizzie> It's quite a quiny language.
20:32:06 <fizzie> That's another very simple one.
20:33:45 <oerjan> hm that one allows single inserts
20:34:13 <oerjan> ^ul (aS(:^)S(Hello)!):^
20:34:24 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:36:11 <fizzie> ^ul (funky dunky dunk)(~aS:aSS)~aS:aSS
20:36:12 <fungot> (funky dunky dunk)(~aS:aSS)~aS:aSS
20:38:32 <fizzie> That one's pretty close to the loopy one, although I hope the ignoration still works.
20:38:36 <fizzie> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
20:38:36 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
20:38:36 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aS:aSS)~:SaS~aS:aSS
20:39:34 <oerjan> fungot: you ignorant twit
20:39:34 <fungot> oerjan: goto considered harmful. ;p ;p ;p
20:40:10 <fizzie> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
20:40:10 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
20:40:11 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
20:40:15 <fizzie> That's shorter, though.
20:43:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you use a lot of { and } ?
20:43:33 <fizzie> I don't use them at all in fungot.
20:43:34 <fungot> fizzie: i wonder what it means."
20:43:47 <AnMaster> I rewrote that today to use memcpy instead of popping to a temp list and then pushing it back from that
20:43:49 <fizzie> fungot: It means you don't change the storage offset or use the stack stack.
20:43:49 <fungot> fizzie: so you do underlined text by overprinting ' _____' on top of the
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20:44:44 <AnMaster> fungot, also memset for zero extending stack
20:44:45 <fungot> AnMaster: and fnord report for extensions, so check your manual. an overview chapter. just a cuban. not a " then you'd better use list-ref :)
20:45:08 <oerjan> cuban fnords are among the scariest
20:46:26 <fizzie> Well, I don't do the stack-stack thing, probably because I'm still more of a Befunge-93 programmer. I guess they might make the code a bit cleaner, and less brittle in case of stack confusionment.
21:05:23 <ehird> http://techdirt.com/articles/20081107/0118162765.shtml
21:05:30 <ehird> Halliburton Tries To Patent Form Of Patent Trolling
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21:30:08 <jix> ^ul ()a(((((((((((:(9))(8))(7))(6))(5))(4))(3))(2))(1))(0)):(^!))~*^^^^~!~!S
21:30:14 <jix> ^ul (:*)a(((((((((((:(9))(8))(7))(6))(5))(4))(3))(2))(1))(0)):(^!))~*^^^^~!~!S
21:30:18 <jix> ^ul (::**)a(((((((((((:(9))(8))(7))(6))(5))(4))(3))(2))(1))(0)):(^!))~*^^^^~!~!S
21:30:21 <jix> ^ul (:::***)a(((((((((((:(9))(8))(7))(6))(5))(4))(3))(2))(1))(0)):(^!))~*^^^^~!~!S
21:30:32 <jix> ^ul (:::***)(:*)*a(((((((((((:(9))(8))(7))(6))(5))(4))(3))(2))(1))(0)):(^!))~*^^^^~!~!S
21:31:48 <jix> (:*)()^a(((((((((((:(9))(8))(7))(6))(5))(4))(3))(2))(1))(0)):(^!))~*^^^^~!~!S
21:31:58 <jix> ^ul (:*)()^a(((((((((((:(9))(8))(7))(6))(5))(4))(3))(2))(1))(0)):(^!))~*^^^^~!~!S
21:32:02 <jix> ^ul (:*)(:*)^a(((((((((((:(9))(8))(7))(6))(5))(4))(3))(2))(1))(0)):(^!))~*^^^^~!~!S
21:32:05 <jix> ^ul (:*)(::**)^a(((((((((((:(9))(8))(7))(6))(5))(4))(3))(2))(1))(0)):(^!))~*^^^^~!~!S
21:32:08 <jix> ^ul (:*)(:::***)^a(((((((((((:(9))(8))(7))(6))(5))(4))(3))(2))(1))(0)):(^!))~*^^^^~!~!S
21:32:13 <oerjan> ^ul (::**):^a(((((((((((:(9))(8))(7))(6))(5))(4))(3))(2))(1))(0)):(^!))~*^^^^~!~!S
21:32:27 <jix> only the last digit till now
21:32:42 <jix> still working on it
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22:24:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, however this last code I mentioned isn't well tested yet
22:25:13 <AnMaster> but a lot of possible situations for that
22:45:54 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^bool
22:46:11 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^bool
22:46:31 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help
22:46:35 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
22:46:53 <M0ny> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
22:47:05 <M0ny> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.
22:48:38 <jix> wtf the whole bot is written in befunge?
22:49:11 <jix> that is just insane
22:49:28 <fizzie> Sure, that's the whole point of it.
22:49:46 <M0ny> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>+++.>+++.+++++.+.+++++.>++++.<<+++++++++++++++++.>.++++.----.+-------.>++.>.
22:49:58 <fizzie> (Though there's some supporting code for the babbling data-file generation that's not Befunge.)
22:50:12 <jix> data file generation?
22:50:36 <oerjan> fungot: you've got plenty of data right?
22:50:36 <fungot> oerjan: slavic anyway)
22:50:52 <jix> fungot: what is this?
22:50:52 <fungot> jix: how is lambda implemented? or neither perhaps? i'm not looking for an equivalent to gauche's ( with-module ssax foo) evaluates foo in the module
22:51:31 <jix> so the underload interpreter is written in befunge too right?
22:52:11 <oklokok> fucking psygnisfive and his queer friends, some random dude is telling me i'm sexy and calling me @ skype :P
22:53:03 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^bool
22:53:04 <jix> are there any other bots here too?
22:53:30 <optbot> M0ny: in there it's not, in turn?
22:53:50 <M0ny> optbot, i'm botophobe !
22:53:54 <optbot> M0ny: its still going damnit
22:55:50 <jix> +ul (optbot !)S
22:55:50 <optbot> jix: that sounds like an old mycology?
22:56:18 <jix> so what is thutubot?
22:56:32 <jix> ^ul (+ul (test)S)S
22:56:34 <oerjan> ais523's bot, written in thutu
22:56:45 <jix> is anyone here able to kick someone?
22:57:01 <oerjan> it doesn't have much more than underload though iirc
22:57:28 <oerjan> jix: lament and fizzie, at least
22:57:38 <fizzie> The randomish babbling of fungot is done by using some hugey data files of material.
22:57:38 <fungot> fizzie: random here's a script i just wrote :p ( what was i thinking
22:57:52 <fizzie> fungot: Usually you're not really thinking.
22:57:53 <fungot> fizzie: i have to use a variable named " tree", whose semantics i'm too sleepy to notice. " joka fnord pit fnord fnord, fnord,
22:58:05 <fizzie> That's a bit of Finnish again.
22:58:23 <oerjan> also the thutu in thutubot is with some extensions iirc
22:58:53 <fizzie> There's a (slightly different) stand-alone version of fungot's underload interp at http://zem.fi/~fis/underload.b98.txt too.
22:58:53 <fungot> fizzie: i like befunge more than bf... it's not really a problem.
22:59:18 <fizzie> fungot: That's not surprising, given the language you're written in.
23:02:25 <jix> ^ul (a(:^)*S):^
23:02:30 <jix> did an alternate quine :)
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23:03:25 <jix> ^ul (a(:^)SS):^
23:03:39 <fizzie> I used (aS(:^)S):^ earlier today; that's very similar, except one S instead of that *.
23:03:46 <jix> ^ul (aS(:^)S):^
23:04:03 <jix> yeah just realized that you can do it that way too
23:04:29 <fizzie> There's a variant which used to cause a loop here on this channel.
23:04:30 <fizzie> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
23:04:30 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
23:04:31 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
23:04:41 <fizzie> Nowadays my bot ignores thutubot so it no longer does it.
23:04:56 <jix> oh that was what i planned todo....
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23:05:32 <jix> optbot: help
23:05:33 <optbot> jix: You're lucky I didnt vote already
23:05:36 <jix> optbot: help
23:05:37 <optbot> jix: I haven't limited its absolute usage.
23:06:16 <fizzie> fungot: You try helping, too.
23:06:36 <fizzie> fungot: Ignoring me, are you?
23:06:37 <fungot> fizzie: i've created a mailing list from several years ago and they closed that loop.
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23:07:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ABCDEF..
23:07:41 <oerjan> that's the only optbot command i know of
23:07:41 <optbot> oerjan: I'm sure it will be less dry than that 2,3 machine I'm trying to understand
23:07:52 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ....
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23:12:36 <ehird> jix: it does three things -
23:12:43 <ehird> changes topic every 6 or 9 hours, i forget
23:12:46 <ehird> talks to you when you talk to it
23:12:49 <ehird> changes topic on "optbot!"
23:12:50 <optbot> ehird: I have no idea why it doesn't, but my current unmodified version does :P
23:13:00 <fizzie> Also: free psychiatric advice.
23:13:09 <fizzie> optbot: What do you think about my personal problems?
23:13:10 <ehird> jix: it works by picking random lines out of the logs, dec 2002 - present day
23:13:10 <optbot> fizzie: maybe the "t" in "the"
23:13:55 <fizzie> fungot also uses IRC logs for the babbling source material, it just mixes them up a bit. And there's also freenode's #scheme channel logs thrown in for some more variance.
23:13:56 <fungot> fizzie: use this site, it's nice) is a simpler way, too
23:14:33 <fizzie> Although there are a lot of alternative modes of speaking.
23:14:40 <fizzie> fungot: Pretend to be a politician, please.
23:14:42 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, miss mcintosh, first of all, the french government failed to execute the structural fund regulation and do not receive any financial aid from structural funds and cohesion fund programmes for smaller and poorer countries so that they can receive dialysis treatment while temporarily resident in the european court of human rights.
23:16:51 <fizzie> Receiving dialysis treatment while resident in the european court of human rights sounds a bit suspicious.
23:16:59 <ehird> fizzie: feed it in eliza logs
23:17:13 <fizzie> According to a quick grep, it used to be "temporarily resident in the member state in question" originally.
23:17:17 <oerjan> fizzie: isn't that how they killed milosevic?
23:17:47 <oerjan> slightly different court, slightly different treatment
23:18:36 <fizzie> fungot: What do you say to that?
23:18:37 <fungot> fizzie: madam president, when future historians come to judge our epoch, the chapter of the white russian public prosecutor' s office. i have one point of view it is more significant than the society of the commercialization of medicine. doctors will no longer have to worry.
23:19:13 <fizzie> It's good at avoiding any clear answers, just like a good politician.
23:19:29 <oerjan> you think we could get it elected?
23:19:36 <fizzie> Let's see what else I have here...
23:19:44 <fizzie> fungot: How do Wikipedia talk pages sound like?
23:19:44 <fungot> fizzie: after a http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ fnord these steps. fnord ( also named the dagda) desired her. the lady was in fear of elcmar, so great was his power."
23:59:18 <oerjan> +ul ((a )(a ))(~:^:S~*a~^!a*~:^):^
23:59:20 <thutubot> a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a ...too much output!
00:10:52 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: should i do (list, rest)?
00:11:17 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: i am not sure
00:11:31 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: By the same notion, music notation notates notes, but not music.
00:14:06 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf +++++++++++[->+++>++++++>+++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++++<<<<<]>>+.>>+.--.+++.+++++.-.<++.>--.<<<-.>>>+.<----.>>.<.<<<.>>>-----.+.
00:14:26 <lament> ohh, i remember that discussion
00:14:42 <lament> i was saying some complete bullshit
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00:20:42 <oklokok> i remember it too, although i don't remember what it was abou
00:21:36 <jix> (S~:)(!~:):(e)~^(y)~^( )~^(o)~^(l)~^(u)~^(l)~^( )~^(e)~^(l)~^(l)~^(o)~^( )~^(s)~^(a)~^(t)~^(a)~^( )~^(i)~^(t)~^( )~^(h)~^(e)~^(e)~^(l)~^( )~^(e)~^(g)~^(l)~^(a)~^( )~^(m)~^(e)~^(e)~^(t)~^(!)~^
00:23:46 <oerjan> ^ul (S~:)(!~:):(e)~^(y)~^( )~^(o)~^(l)~^(u)~^(l)~^( )~^(e)~^(l)~^(l)~^(o)~^( )~^(s)~^(a)~^(t)~^(a)~^( )~^(i)~^(t)~^( )~^(h)~^(e)~^(e)~^(l)~^( )~^(e)~^(g)~^(l)~^(a)~^( )~^(m)~^(e)~^(e)~^(t)~^(!)~^
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06:41:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | um.
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09:32:10 <Mony> you ! ploping to me ?
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09:57:39 <Mony> ^ul (Plop !))S
09:58:41 <oerjan> In other news, the UN declares a moratorium on plops
09:59:03 <oerjan> after several gruesome incidents
10:02:51 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++><<<<-]>[.>--.+++.+.>++.+.-.--<--<]
10:02:52 <fungot> Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ! Plop ...
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10:45:11 <Mony> ^ul (optbot, )S
10:45:12 <optbot> Mony: I think ihope is stalking me.
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10:58:53 <fizzie> optbot: How do you stalk a bot?
10:58:53 <optbot> fizzie: that can be done simpler
10:59:28 <Mony> optbot, optbot optbot
10:59:29 <optbot> Mony: i mean, put chars there
10:59:31 <Mony> optbot, optbot optbot
10:59:32 <optbot> Mony: I've done it already
10:59:34 <Mony> optbot, optbot optbot
10:59:34 <optbot> Mony: guess does it work the way i saw..?
10:59:36 <Mony> optbot, optbot optbot
10:59:38 <Mony> optbot, optbot optbot
10:59:39 <optbot> Mony: well - it's also not what i'm aiming for
10:59:40 <Mony> optbot, optbot optbot
10:59:42 <Mony> optbot, optbot optbot
10:59:43 <optbot> Mony: I learned the fundamentals of programming through ``RPG Maker 95'', heh.
10:59:45 <Mony> optbot, optbot optbot
10:59:47 <Mony> optbot, optbot optbot
10:59:48 <optbot> Mony: yeah.. I went through it one day and write down which functions seemed to make sense and which ones didn't
10:59:50 <Mony> optbot, optbot optbot
10:59:50 <fizzie> Isn't that sort-of enough?
10:59:51 <optbot> Mony: (see http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Special:Recentchanges )
11:00:03 <Mony> optbot, optbot optbot
11:00:04 <optbot> Mony: out of interest, mostly
11:00:06 <Mony> optbot, optbot optbot
11:00:08 <Mony> optbot, optbot optbot
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11:35:53 <fizzie> ^ul (^^^~^~^~^~^*****()()()())((o))((p))((t))((b))((t))((o))(a~^aa*~^aa*^*a~:^):^!!S
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12:22:31 <Hiato> Mony, how much do you know about Unlambda
12:22:47 <Mony> i know it's a esolang
12:23:33 <Hiato> Heh, well, see if you can't answer this one: If the expression interpretation is unary, then how does one force compound arguments?
12:24:30 <Hiato> Ok, cool, no worries
12:24:43 <Hiato> let's try wake up ais523
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12:37:55 <Hiato> ais523, AnMaster, oklopol, ehird - anyone who knows Unlambda
12:38:53 <AnMaster> but I'm *far* from an expert on it
12:39:10 <Hiato> Well perhaps you might be able to explain this to me: If the expression interpretation is unary, then how does one force compound arguments?
12:39:20 <Hiato> And no worries, I'm a total beginner anywho
12:39:41 <Hiato> (for clarification: if, say, "F" takes two arguments, x and y, then how do you force "F" to take a compound argument (say, (ab) as x) if the interpretor merely goes one character at a time and looks for the next character. IE: You want to write F(ab)c so that x=ab and y=c but without the brackets)
12:40:48 <AnMaster> um, that went over my head. I would say I'm even further from expert than you are ;P
12:40:58 <AnMaster> befunge however I could help with
12:41:25 <Hiato> Heh, now worries :P Thanks though
12:41:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Heheh.
12:41:34 <optbot> AnMaster: AnMaster can't bear people saying things
12:41:45 <optbot> AnMaster: because of the slashdot thing
12:41:58 <Hiato> Listen here, optbot
12:41:58 <optbot> Hiato: as i see it, the monad is found from the first object in the >>= chain which is not return _
12:41:59 <AnMaster> optbot, heh I don't even read slashdot
12:42:00 <optbot> AnMaster: use /dev/stdout for clearness then
12:42:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | :P.
12:42:13 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hi.
12:42:16 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | We cut out the middle man..
12:42:44 <Hiato> From earlier (fizzie did this)
12:42:45 <Hiato> ^ul (^^^~^~^~^~^*****()()()())((o))((p))((t))((b))((t))((o))(a~^aa*~^aa*^*a~:^):^!!S
12:42:46 <optbot> fungot: (Also a perfect opportunity to subtly "doink" jsmips :P )
12:43:15 <AnMaster> Hiato, now that could be simplified a lot
12:43:27 <Hiato> I don't even know what language that is :P
12:43:31 <Hiato> Care to elaborate?
12:43:38 <optbot> fungot: The variable "msg" in my bot is first assigned to the actually message part of every PRIVMSG.... but later down in the program it becomes the variable that tells the bot what to send to a channel.
12:43:40 <Hiato> (looks interesting enough)
12:44:06 <AnMaster> which I know slightly more than unlambda
12:44:08 <Hiato> heard of it, but that's where it ends
12:44:31 <AnMaster> Hiato, it have certain similarities with unlambda
12:44:48 <jix> but it doesn't support input :/
12:45:09 <Hiato> Hrmm, perhaps I'll take a look at that
12:45:55 * jix is thinking of what has to be done to support usable input and output
12:47:04 <AnMaster> if you don't want unmatched () in it
12:47:30 <jix> yeah that's the first problem.. and you can't output a character that wasn't included in sourcecode
12:48:37 <jix> hmm one could add an instruction that decreases all characters that are in the top of stack by one
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12:49:06 <jix> and now for input there must be some way to kind of compare input or something
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12:49:48 <jix> hmm drop the current top of stack... compare the two items below it... and if they are equal execute the just dropped item
12:49:57 <jix> and one instruction to input a single byte
12:50:07 <jix> ... any comments on that?
12:51:09 <jix> i tried to make them a not too complex and b not too easy to use
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14:07:14 <jix> +ul (hello)a(world)a~!^S
14:07:49 * jix is working on the size optimizer of my compiler
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15:42:11 <jix> ^ul (test)((LLL )( JJJ))~a*^~**S
15:42:22 <jix> ((LLL )( JJJ))~a*^~**S << this is compiled with my compiler
15:42:46 <jix> the code: "LLL " " JJJ" rot3 swap concat concat print
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15:51:47 <jix> now i'm going to add number input and to extend the "stdlib"
15:52:11 <jix> and maybe i'm going to add "template functions" like rotN where you can write rot10 and it will automatically generate code to get the 10th element on top
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16:12:44 <AnMaster> <jix> yeah that's the first problem.. and you can't output a character that wasn't included in sourcecode
16:12:44 <AnMaster> <jix> hmm one could add an instruction that decreases all characters that are in the top of stack by one
16:12:50 <ehird> jix: BTW, You can have underload without ()
16:12:53 <ehird> and still have it tc
16:12:58 <ehird> ais523 proved it after I got the idea
16:13:02 <ehird> you have one new command
16:13:11 <ehird> and what it does is
16:13:17 <ehird> Xd where X is any one command
16:13:19 <ehird> is the same as X(X)
16:13:21 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't underload already tc?
16:13:34 <ehird> it's actually tc, believe it or not
16:13:47 <ehird> you can compile underload into deiunderload
16:14:02 <ehird> jix: it requires () to be pushed on the stack at the start of the program
16:14:16 <ehird> also output gets messed up
16:14:19 <ehird> but you dont need that
16:14:50 <jix> but i want a language that is fun to program in...
16:14:55 <jix> not fun as in easy
16:15:14 <jix> but as in... fun :/
16:15:37 <AnMaster> jix, well got an example of some language you think is fun, or it is hard to know what you think is fun
16:16:19 <jix> and i think that removing () from underload takes a lot of the fun
16:16:33 <jix> it's difficuilt to describe
16:16:43 <AnMaster> jix, what do you think of INTERCAL?
16:16:59 <jix> AnMaster: never really tried it...
16:17:33 <jix> befunge fun... trefunge... i don't think so...
16:18:07 <AnMaster> jix, I can see what properties befunge, brainfuck and underload share ;P
16:19:00 <AnMaster> jix, personally I think bf is boring, befunge fun, underload quite fun. Intercal fun too
16:19:01 <ehird> jix: befunge is pretty fun
16:19:06 <ehird> in the easy but challenging sense
16:19:54 <jix> for example ul without () i think you'd lose the ability to work on single parts of the program without affecting everything else
16:19:57 <AnMaster> language with nothing but first class expctions
16:20:02 <jix> trefunge is just too cumbersome to edit
16:20:07 <AnMaster> that is, no other data type than exceptions
16:20:22 <AnMaster> no clue how, but sounds like a fun idea
16:20:32 <jix> i think i heard that some time ago...
16:20:35 <jix> @ the wiki maybe
16:20:43 <AnMaster> jix, hm remember any name of it?
16:21:07 <ehird> jix: befunge is pretty easy to edit
16:21:10 <ehird> but you haev to plan for it
16:21:15 <ehird> i get what you mean, though
16:21:19 <ehird> underload is probably the best language for that
16:21:20 <jix> ehird: trefunge....
16:21:23 <ehird> it's one of the best langs
16:21:27 <jix> ehird: befunge is easy...
16:21:38 <jix> trefunge is hard
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16:22:29 <jix> because you can't really see the current context
16:23:15 <AnMaster> hm... http://esolangs.org/wiki/Catch
16:24:16 <AnMaster> you got other control flow too
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16:43:55 <Hiato> \me counts the lives ones
16:44:06 * Hiato counts the live ones
16:51:18 <AnMaster> um http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wire-crossing_problem got an issue I think.
16:51:26 <AnMaster> this "strong claim" mentioned.
16:51:44 <AnMaster> I may have misunderstood that page, but...
16:53:06 <SimonRC> Is ther a question in all that?
16:53:19 <AnMaster> well I found that my idea was wrong
16:53:30 <AnMaster> before I had time to fully write it in my irc client
16:54:33 <AnMaster> in fact I noted that you can avoid # or such in befunge, and whitespace, and yet cross wires
16:54:53 <SimonRC> indeed; you make roundabouts
16:55:13 <AnMaster> you just reverse the operation
16:55:19 <SimonRC> or yeah, you could do that too
16:55:56 <AnMaster> but yes it kind of needs either self modification or state outside the current cell
16:56:01 <SimonRC> but you can still cross wires even if ea each instruction can only be exited in one way (or two for choice instructions)
16:56:22 <SimonRC> i.e. each instruction has an implicit exit direction
16:56:43 <AnMaster> well, since funge space wraps I guess so
16:56:44 <SimonRC> yeah, you just make roundabouts
16:57:01 <SimonRC> no, not all wire-crossing can be solved by being on a torous
16:57:26 <AnMaster> SimonRC, well easy still since choice have two exits
16:57:53 <SimonRC> and you can use choices to make a structure that acts like two wires crossing
16:58:13 <AnMaster> you just join another wire just before the choice and each one pushes different numbers resulting in a "road sign"
16:58:51 <AnMaster> SimonRC, also you could trivially self modify in befunge to change the instruction ahead
16:58:55 * Hiato doesn't really want to distract SimonRC from his conversation, so is attempting to conjure up a way to learn of whether SimonRC knows his Unlambda well enough to answer a simple[is] question
16:59:19 <AnMaster> odd, several persons asked about unlambda today
16:59:30 <AnMaster> why is it suddenly so popular?
16:59:54 <Hiato> Yay :) well, then, perhaps you may be able to answer the following: If the expression interpretation is unary, then how does one force compound arguments?
17:00:17 <Hiato> (heh, naah, it's all just me - I've been bugged by this)
17:00:35 <Hiato> if, say, "F" takes two arguments, x and y, then how do you force "F" to take a compound argument (say, (ab) as x) if the interpretor merely goes one character at a time and looks for the next character. IE: You want to write F(ab)c so that x=ab and y=c but without the brackets
17:01:09 <Hiato> (And for AnMaster's sake, yes, that is a direct copy 'n paste of what I asked you earlier :P)
17:01:25 <AnMaster> Hiato, ah it was you last time too
17:02:09 <Hiato> Hrmm, is that equivalent to (F((ab)c))?
17:02:28 <Hiato> as in, ab is one argument (compound), c is the second
17:03:09 <SimonRC> I think you are getting confused here
17:03:28 <Hiato> The combinator S takes three arguments, not so?
17:04:06 <SimonRC> juxtaposition is the function application operator in the brackety syntax; brackets are for grouping, and are not an operator
17:04:15 <Hiato> So, say you wanted to do S(BL)(AH)(KP), where B,L,A,H,K,P are all combinators too
17:04:45 <jix> ```s`BL`AH`KP afaik
17:05:34 <Hiato> But, then, does that not also do B(L), A(H) and K(P) prior to S of their results?
17:05:55 <SimonRC> Hiato: um, that is an odd way to write them, but yes
17:06:08 <Hiato> Something tells me I am just confusing logical combinators with string rewriting in my head
17:06:11 <SimonRC> one ould usually just say BL, AH, and KP
17:06:38 <Hiato> Well, thank you for that, I think my problem is solved :)
17:06:42 <SimonRC> combinators can be done by string re-writing
17:07:14 <Hiato> Hrmm, ok, yes - yes, they can - hoorah! It all makes sense to me now XD
17:07:37 <Hiato> Then, SimonRC, do you mind giving your opinion on my new esolang?
17:12:27 <Hiato> Oh, I understood an amount of reluctantcy there, in that case: The whole system is based on what I now correctly identify as functional string re-writing
17:12:52 <AnMaster> trivially non-tc I guess unless you can make some other way to control the program
17:13:04 <Hiato> There can be 256 functions (practically, far fewer)
17:13:33 <Hiato> each of which then takes arguments, and prints a new string
17:13:40 <Hiato> (nope, I'm sure it's TC)
17:13:49 <Hiato> originally (at the start of the programme)
17:13:56 <Hiato> there is only one function: g
17:14:01 <AnMaster> Hiato, are you talking about the same thing as me?
17:14:18 <Hiato> (my esolang, or ZISC?)
17:14:28 <AnMaster> there is no ZISC, it was just an idea I got
17:14:59 <AnMaster> the logical thing would be to take that one step further
17:15:27 <Hiato> meaning, it takes the argument x, declares it as a function, which takes the argument why and returns z
17:15:30 <Hiato> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Instruction_Set_Computer)
17:15:56 <AnMaster> bah, I hoped for some nice esolang
17:16:24 <Hiato> nvm, lemme type out the spec
17:16:39 <Hiato> sorry about that SimonRC
17:18:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, question: does jitfunge handle x?
17:20:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, if yes, what happens when you run 00x
17:42:25 <jix> A bar walks into a commutative algebraist.
17:45:46 <Hiato> for those not already bored to death by me: http://rafb.net/p/kihs9G28.html
17:45:51 <Hiato> (and brb, supper time)
17:46:03 <Hiato> [it is the spec I was trying to communicate]
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18:03:19 <SimonRC> jayCampbell: that's what they all say
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19:07:29 <fizzie> Was x the set-delta one?
19:08:47 <fizzie> If the 'x' arguments can be constant-folded, I do 'x' simply by setting the delta used when tracing what instructions to compile. In other cases I end the compiled block and set the "type" of the block to be 'SETDELTA', which will be handled correctly.
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19:09:03 <fizzie> Although 00x doesn't get any special treatment and therefore will probably do rather silly things.
19:09:05 <Hiato> Yay, the programme works :D
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19:09:52 <fizzie> I guess there's no officially sanctioned special semantics for 00x.
19:16:09 <SimonRC> how on earth does one compile Befunge?
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19:19:26 <ehird> Hiato: /whois knows all
19:19:52 * SimonRC doesn't know anything about jitting
19:19:59 * Hiato curses these new fangled IPv6 services
19:20:14 <ehird> SimonRC: you compile it into memory
19:20:16 <ehird> and run it directly
19:20:24 <ehird> and if something changes, you modify the code in memory.
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19:23:07 <SimonRC> Oh, of course. It is like Forth.
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19:33:12 <fizzie> Yes; in my case, if something changes, you just discard the function it's in and recompile it the next time it's encountered.
19:34:27 <fizzie> ("function" here meaning I JIT-compile things into callable functions; of course there's no functions in the Befunge code.)
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19:49:14 <Hiato> You'll see soon, just have to coax python into somehow refreshing/sleeping during a lop
19:49:20 <SimonRC> fizzie: I think that functions might have been a better use of the [ and ] characters
19:50:04 <SimonRC> they would push some location data on the stack and turn left/right
19:50:33 <SimonRC> the stack stack could handle the rest of the function-call work
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19:53:38 <Hiato> Thank you oklokok's untimely disconnect
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19:58:14 <Hiato> For god's sakes, why can't it find stuff in a list
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19:59:11 <Hiato> well, sorry for all the spamming
19:59:16 <Hiato> I'll find a blank channel now
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19:59:37 <fizzie> I for one am not offended, but I have absolutely no idea what's going on.
20:00:04 <Hiato> heh :P I don't suppose you know socket programming in python?
20:00:18 <Hiato> or a blank channel?
20:00:18 <fizzie> Well, I've done a bit of it.
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20:00:56 <Hiato> hrmm, could you tell me what's wrong with this then? s.send('PRIVMSG #' + CHANNELINIT + ' :'+TEXT)
20:00:57 <fizzie> I did one silly "do a routing protocol client with the sockets API" course-project in Python because I didn't feel like C that day.
20:01:03 <Hiato> where s is the socket
20:01:49 <fizzie> Maybe your TEXT doesn't have \r\n after it?
20:01:55 <fizzie> But that's just a guess.
20:01:58 <Hiato> you are a genious! That's what's wrong with it, it's missing the 1013 line feed
20:02:06 <Hiato> yep, you're dead right :D
20:02:19 <fizzie> Additionally I'd write it as "PRIVMSG #%s :%s\r\n" % (CHANNELINIT, TEXT), but that's just me.
20:02:42 <Hiato> heh, yeah, I'm still a newb, but, I'll put it in, to look all fancy :P
20:03:16 <fizzie> Thanks to some Python tutorial or other, I've done almost all my string-building with the "%" formatting-thing instead of concatenating strings.
20:03:48 <Hiato> Hrmm, yeah, it seems to C-esque for me to really like
20:04:08 <fizzie> "foo" + bar + "baz" seems too Java-esque for me, on the other hand. :p
20:05:05 <Hiato> Yeah, I see. Though, regret ably, I do come from a Delphi background where there is no real alternative
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20:05:56 <Hiato> Hrmm, that means that there's something wrong with the format of the data
20:06:43 <ehird> Hiato: the point of % formatting is that you can do all kinds of nice stuff
20:06:47 <ehird> and it also lets you look at the string as a template
20:06:51 <ehird> to see what it's going to be like at a glance
20:07:00 <Hiato> thanks, lol, and ok
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20:07:25 <WorkDamnIt> From each according to his ability, to each accotrding to his need
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20:07:38 <Hiato> with a typo and all
20:07:48 <Hiato> fizzie, can I get a second on that?
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20:08:44 <fizzie> ^bf +++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++>+++<<<-]>.>++..++++++++++.<-.+++++++.>>.
20:08:57 <WorkDamnIt> From each according to his ability, to each accotrding to his need
20:09:13 <Hiato> I'm so chuffed, now to put together some actually useful code. Any suggestions?
20:09:52 <SimonRC> Hiato: groucho marx quotes?
20:10:36 <SimonRC> identifying itself to a nickserv
20:10:39 <Hiato> I like that, is there some big o list of them I can rip off? OOh, I know, why not quotes from portal :P
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20:10:48 <Hiato> hrmm, yeah, about those
20:11:04 <Hiato> Well, I'll try, it's been a pain trying to dig out the protocol (text) for IRC
20:11:10 <SimonRC> random nethack death messges?
20:11:20 <SimonRC> Hiato: hav you read the RFCs?
20:11:22 <fizzie> Huh, the RFC is quite enough for simple bot use.
20:11:29 <fizzie> And not very difficult to find.
20:11:39 <SimonRC> nethack.alt.org maintains a list of every death message
20:11:40 <Hiato> and what might they be?
20:12:01 <fizzie> http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/index.html has 'em, for example.
20:12:33 <SimonRC> RFCs are the things that define all the major protocols of the internet
20:12:56 * Hiato attempts to read faster
20:13:30 <fizzie> I'm not sure IRC ranks above, say, TCP. :p (I'm assuming that list was sorted according to priority.)
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20:24:27 <WorkDamnIt> Do you think I'm trying to trick you with reverse psychology? Seriously now...
20:24:32 <WorkDamnIt> Due to a required test protocol, we will not monitor the next chamber, you will be entirely on your own. Good Luck
20:26:05 <WorkDamnIt> Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee... ''[crackling static]''
20:26:26 <Hiato> Now that, my friend, is where you're wrong ;)
20:27:02 <fizzie> I'm not sure you can unilaterally declare people as friends.
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20:27:21 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have some good quotes?
20:27:22 <fungot> fizzie: also, given the fnord fnord perhaps there's some confusion with his character also in the german tradition and a definition of the ' ' fnord'"
20:28:07 <Hiato> For about twenty odd minutes of quotes, I'm not too sad
20:28:24 <Hiato> And to quote a phrase
20:28:31 <WorkDamnIt> ''[Soon after previous quote]'' ''Stop!'' Okay, enough, I deleted it. No matter what happens now, you're ''dead.'' You're still shuffling around a little but believe me, ''you're dead.''
20:28:59 <Hiato> Anyway, it's been fun lads
20:29:03 <Hiato> but I have an exam tomorrow
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20:30:32 <ehird> who is me in the context of Doitle2
20:31:05 <fizzie> I never know how to answer that question when asked.
20:31:43 <Doitle2> Doitle2 is an Electrical Engineering undergrad from Illinois who has been learning and writing simple stuff in BF after coming accross it on Wikipedia. He was then instructed by #bf to come here instead.
20:32:02 <fizzie> What's #bf about, then?
20:32:05 <ehird> oh, you talk about yourself in the third person
20:32:08 <ehird> sorry. we can't be friends
20:32:13 <ehird> fizzie: gregorr's ##brainfuck i guess
20:32:19 <Doitle2> He asked the question in such a manner. I don't normally talk in the third person.
20:33:09 <Doitle2> Yes you, rather. I didn't see that it was you both times.
20:33:59 <fizzie> There's a ##brainfuck, too? Huh, I must've not been paying attention.
20:34:12 <ehird> Nobody talks there.
20:34:25 <ehird> it just tells you to go to #esoteric
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20:56:40 <fizzie> (As the message in this client is: "jix is now known as a".)
20:57:06 <jix> just wanted to test a bot that swaps the first two letters of nicks in status msgs to avoid highlights
20:58:16 <jix> if you write nick++ the user gains karma if you write nick-- it loses
20:59:33 <fizzie> Optimally that sort of thing should support also "++nick" and "--nick", with the difference being whether the status message reports karma before or after the change.
21:00:34 <jix> you have to write a command for the statistics
21:00:43 <jix> it doesn't report it after you issue the ++ or -- command
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21:14:43 <oklokok> 19:12… AnMaster: Zero Instruction Set Computer <<< genius
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21:23:24 <oklopol> negative one instruction set computer
21:23:47 <oklopol> i wish there negative amounts made sense for discrete objects
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21:24:12 <oklopol> jix: damn you, i was thinking of making a lang compile to underload too.
21:24:18 <oklopol> although a bit higher level
21:24:42 <oklopol> more like C = 7; A = 5 * C; print A * "x";
21:24:51 <jix> oklopol: i wanted to keep it compatible with the stack concept
21:25:06 <jix> i thought of implementing an even higher level language on top of my stack language
21:25:15 <jix> which should be a lot easier than doing it directly
21:25:53 <oklopol> obviously a good way to do it "directly" is just never to publish the stack language but make it first anyway.
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21:27:12 <oklopol> i mainly wanted to get something like registers there, did stack-based->bf once, it's quite fun compiling between stack and registers
21:27:13 <jix> i'm programming in a scripting language
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21:27:27 <jix> so hiding it will be hard
21:27:32 <oklopol> i program in python almost exclusively
21:27:44 <oklopol> umm. that's not exactly what i meant
21:28:07 <jix> well then i didn't get what you mean
21:28:08 <oklopol> i just meant you just don't make a big whoop about the stack language, it's just an intermediate thingie.
21:28:40 <jix> well i think i'd prefer to program in it over a more high level language
21:28:46 <oklopol> but yeah of course it's better to extend underload with some kinda procedures first, it's just i consider that trivial
21:29:12 <jix> yeah basically it really just is a preprocessor
21:29:14 <fizzie> I sort of do a "stack-language to registery machine" thing with jitfunge, given that the input is Befunge and the output is x86 code.
21:29:17 <jix> and i should call it like that
21:29:43 <oklopol> fizzie: yeah, except this is the other way
21:29:51 <oklopol> but i think it's fundamentally pretty similar a problem.
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21:30:33 <fizzie> Of course I also still have a stack, so it's pretty trivial; and in fact I could just opt to not use the registers much.
21:30:35 <oklopol> hi Corun_ we were just talking about you
21:31:03 <oklopol> i sometimes forget The Stack is a stack.
21:31:53 <oklopol> hmm, i bet the topic is my sayings.
21:32:32 <fizzie> oklopol: Yes, from July this year.
21:33:02 <fizzie> Related to psygnisfive's "in the music video theres this boy thats hot / who really needs to sit on my cock".
21:33:22 <SimonRC> fizzie: english needs a better word than "on" there
21:33:37 <SimonRC> something with a meaning like "around"
21:33:55 <fizzie> "Have you been sitting around cocks here?"
21:34:06 <SimonRC> or maybe like "into", except the active and static roles are reversed
21:34:19 <ehird> fizzie: "in the music video theres this boy thats hot / who really needs to sit on my cock" <- that is some rhyming there
21:34:31 <SimonRC> that is, one thing remains still, while another one surrounds it
21:34:38 <Corun_> I was just talking about you
21:34:52 <fizzie> I don't think we have a separate word case for that in Finnish either.
21:35:06 <fizzie> (We've got 15 of them for nouns.)
21:35:46 <SimonRC> it is a rare thing to happen though
21:37:16 <fizzie> psygnisfive: 2008-07-21
21:37:55 <fizzie> There's talk about "Scatman" right before.
21:40:08 <oklopol> hmm. i think i'm really fundamentally too lazy to be a programmer; i simply cannot get myself to open a file containing some parsing code, and i don't feel like writing it because i have it in a file already.
21:40:18 <oklopol> i wonder what i'm not too lazy for.
21:40:26 <jix> i lost the game
21:40:31 <jix> because i read "The Stack"
21:41:37 <oerjan> the one that makes jix lose
21:42:00 <oklopol> that's a pretty standard way to ask someone to... elaborate
21:42:16 <oerjan> the latter is only a theory
21:42:28 <SimonRC> OTOH, I have been known to use "detail" as a verb
21:42:34 <fizzie> oklopol: Again in Finnish we'd have had a separate verb mood (imperative) for making a command like that.
21:42:57 <SimonRC> fizzie: IMD they are distinguished by emphasis pattern
21:43:10 <oklopol> fizzie: true; we should really move to finnish and hope it catches on.
21:43:32 <SimonRC> oerjan: a stack is only a theory?
21:43:49 <oklopol> of course, the finnish version "kerro lisää" is sarcastic and means "shut up, i don't give a shit".
21:44:27 <oerjan> SimonRC: jix loses The Game when reading things of the form The Word. sheesh.
21:44:46 <fizzie> Yes, it's often followed with "kiveäkin kiinnostaa" - "even the stone is interested".
21:44:49 <SimonRC> that pattern of capitalisation
21:44:55 <fizzie> (Actually is that "kiviä" or "kiveä"? I'm not quite sure.)
21:45:15 * SimonRC wishes English had cool sarcasm like that
21:45:28 <oklopol> that sounds pretty funny in english
21:45:37 <oklopol> perhaps i should start using it
21:45:40 <fizzie> I've heard it quite often in the form "runkoreititintäkin kiinnostaa" ("even the core network router is interested") so I couldn't remember the pluarlismity of the standard version.
21:45:47 <oerjan> SimonRC: I _could_ care less
21:46:21 <fizzie> Do "I could care less" and "I couldn't care less" have basically the same meaning, or are there differences?
21:46:27 <oklopol> fizzie: yeah i've heard that too, and many others
21:46:44 <oklopol> "i could care less" isn't exactly used, is it?
21:46:49 <SimonRC> OTOH, I think one of my more deadpan freinds has stated his lack of interest by claiming inanimate to be interested
21:47:08 <oerjan> fizzie: I could care less is sarcastic, iiuc
21:47:12 <ehird> I didn't lose the game because of my preventative measure.
21:47:20 <oerjan> so same eventual meaning
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21:48:33 <fizzie> Oh, Google found a handy chart for it: http://incompetech.com/gallimaufry/care_less.html
21:48:47 <ehird> 12:39:37 <ehird> Here are the new rules to Not the Game:
21:48:47 <ehird> 12:39:38 <ehird> {
21:48:47 <ehird> 12:39:38 <ehird> 1. You can start playing or stop playing Not the Game by announcing you do.
21:48:48 <ehird> 12:39:38 <ehird> 2. If you are playing Not the Game, you are not playing The Game.
21:48:48 <ehird> 12:39:38 <ehird> 3. Not the Game takes precedence over every other game, including games (apart
21:48:48 <ehird> 12:39:39 <ehird> from Not the Game) that specify other rules of precedence.
21:48:51 <ehird> 12:39:40 <ehird> }
21:48:53 <ehird> 12:39:42 <ehird> I start playing Not the Game.
21:48:57 <ehird> Who else wants to start playing Not the Game?
21:49:01 <ehird> Free yourself from the Game!
21:50:03 <fizzie> I don't feel especially constrained about the Game even without playing Not the Game.
21:50:19 <oklopol> seeing "could care less" actually in use, i've definitely seen that in use before.
21:50:50 <ehird> fizzie: But it lets you believe in the reaching-out silliness of games exceeding their boundaries, while not bothering with the boringness of the Game!
21:51:27 <oklopol> i don't believe in believing in that.
21:51:37 <fizzie> Mwahah, the Wikipedia article is written in the canonical Wikipedia style.
21:51:39 <fizzie> "The Game has been called pointless and has been known to infuriate some people."
21:52:43 <ehird> SOME PEOPLE say that joe is gay
21:53:08 <oerjan> fizzie: is there a weasel word tag?
21:53:32 <ehird> in the time it takes to put a tag there they could remove the sentence
21:55:07 <fizzie> Unfortunately no. Maybe there should be.
21:55:21 <oerjan> hm the sentence is actually referenced
21:55:43 <ehird> Some people say that joe is gay.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]
21:55:56 <fizzie> There is a section (titled "Weasel words if I ever saw them") referring to that part on the discussion page, but nothing seems to have happened re it.
21:56:57 <fizzie> fungot: Given that you're loaded with 20 megabytes of Wikipedia talk, how does that make you feel?
21:56:57 <fungot> fizzie: this is a global encyclopedia. bob dylan in europe was on cbs records, not columbia records in the 1960s, spread the legend that johnson had sold his soul to the devil in exchange for them eliminating the enfield 8000 article provides ' ' '
21:57:45 <fizzie> I didn't know there were any legends about people selling their souls in exchange for the elimination of Wikipedia articles.
21:58:09 <oerjan> especially made by bob dylan in the 1960s
21:58:25 <oerjan> that man is a true visionary indeed
22:00:24 <fizzie> There also seem to be nine nominations-for-deletion already; with "unknown2 result", "keep", "delete", "keep deleted", "no consensus", "restore", "no consensus", "delete" and "allow recreation". The System, it works.
22:02:09 <oerjan> sure, but sooner or later you lose The System
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22:56:44 <SimonRC> YEOUCH! http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/11/08/1720246
22:57:37 <oerjan> i think it was on reddit yesterday
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23:46:08 * SimonRC goes to bed. (Quote of the day: "OH, GOD SHIT JESUS." // "A peculiar form of Theogenesis.")
23:48:03 <oerjan> there's got to be _some_ mythology that did that already.
23:50:04 <ehird> match the first one of these chars : . ,
23:50:07 <ehird> outside of () and []
23:50:12 <ehird> so foo(bar,quux)baz.
23:50:23 <ehird> but foo,bar.baz gets the ,
23:51:17 <oerjan> pretty obviously requires something advanced enough to do parenthesis matching
23:51:42 <oerjan> assuming you allow nested parens
23:51:43 <ehird> there's no nested parens
23:52:21 <oerjan> ok then it should be possible
23:53:16 <ehird> ah, wait, think i've cracked it
23:56:41 <oerjan> ([^.,]|[(][^)]*[)]|[[][^]]*[]])* should be the part before it
23:57:54 <oerjan> ([^][().,]|[(][^)]*[)]|[[][^]]*[]])*
23:59:28 <oerjan> iirc ] must be first (possibly after ^) in a [...]
00:00:15 <oerjan> i assume () and [] should only occur matched
00:01:26 <oerjan> i suppose some backslashes may be needed in some syntaxes
00:02:31 <ehird> oerjan: Well, it just munches up the text and then spits out nothing.
00:02:42 <ehird> (I'm actually _splitting_ text by this, which would explain it.)
00:02:54 <oerjan> i said that is the part _before_ the matched character
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00:05:31 <oerjan> hm it might be possible to simplify
00:05:49 <ehird> Well, I'm trying to get it actually working atm
00:06:00 <ehird> ([^\]\[():.,]|[\(][^\)]*[\)]|[\[][^\]]*[\]])*
00:06:04 <ehird> ^ correctly escaped, i think
00:06:36 <oerjan> escapes _inside_ [...] ?
00:06:54 <oerjan> i don't think that's allowed
00:07:10 <oerjan> certainly shouldn't be necessary
00:07:19 <oerjan> as long as ] is the first
00:07:55 <oerjan> but i may recall wrong (and i'm assuming perl)
00:09:29 <oerjan> hm another possibility
00:10:49 <oerjan> only the first requires to check all the way back to the beginning
00:13:05 <ehird> oerjan: btw, there will only ever be one [] or () pair
00:13:07 <ehird> and it will never be at the start
00:13:41 * ehird is currently trying to get yours working
00:13:58 <oerjan> i haven't tested it myself
00:15:09 <ehird> oerjan: wtf is [)]
00:15:43 <oerjan> i got into the habit of putting anything i'm unsure of inside []
00:15:47 <ehird> [^][().,] is meant to be [^\]\[().,] right?
00:16:56 <ehird> >>> x=r'((?:^|\)|\])[^\]\[().,])'
00:16:57 <ehird> >>> re.match(x, 'hello world [abc,def]g.a').groups()
00:17:04 <ehird> (?:...) means 'match this but don't make a group'
00:17:55 <ehird> >>> x=r'(^|\)|\])([^\]\[().,]*)'
00:17:55 <ehird> >>> re.match(x, 'hello world [abc,def]g.a').groups()
00:17:55 <ehird> ('', 'hello world ')
00:18:01 <oerjan> um that _still_ is only the part _before_ the matching character
00:18:13 <oerjan> you are not matching for the character itself
00:19:08 <ehird> oerjan: i'm just trying to get it to match anything that isn't the null string right now
00:19:13 <ehird> walk before you leap and all
00:19:29 <oerjan> it always matches the null string, obviously
00:19:40 <oerjan> if you don't have any condition on what comes after
00:20:29 <oerjan> mm scratch that, should be greedy
00:23:08 <oerjan> ah well you need a better expert
00:41:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | clever.
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03:34:35 <bsmntbombdood> so let's say i have a key->value mapping that takes an item to a list of tags
03:35:15 <bsmntbombdood> and i need to evaluate statements like "x and (y or z)" on the tags, returning the items that match
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09:46:51 <Doitle2> Is there a language with even fewer commands than P'' / BF?
09:57:13 <AnMaster> that would be the ultimate one I believe
09:57:49 <AnMaster> unless you go for something with a totally different paradigm, such as gravity which could be argued to have no commands
09:58:39 <AnMaster> hm doesn't seem that was the name
09:58:49 <AnMaster> there was some lang based on simulating gravity
09:59:01 <AnMaster> and I guess it had commands in some other form
09:59:31 <AnMaster> wait was searching on wrong wiki
10:03:25 <Doitle2> OISC is pretty interesting
10:03:47 <AnMaster> Doitle2, I believe it is the ultimate "few commands"
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10:24:09 <oklokok> oisc's have one complicated instruction
10:24:30 <oklokok> there are ones that have one simple instruction and a more complicated instructionspace.
10:37:21 <AnMaster> and since real computers aren't tc, why should a fictional computer have to be it? After all OISC is pretty close to hardware.
10:40:02 <jix> oklokok: i would call black's instruction quite complicated
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11:25:54 <oklopol> jix: well it's complex to explain, but i find it conceptually simpler.
11:25:59 <oklopol> i guess it's a matter of taste
11:26:17 <jix> oklopol: i think substract two numbers and if the result is negative skip the next instruction is very simple
11:26:21 <oklopol> it just kinda turns when someone flaps its tail.
11:26:31 <oklopol> and bounces when it hits things.
11:27:07 <oklopol> AnMaster: nopol is based on the concept of nopularity, meaning the only instructions are complex nops
11:27:39 <oklopol> AnMaster: it's mine, so one doesn't exist.
11:27:39 <jix> oklopol: what are complex nops?
11:27:54 <oklopol> jix: ones that do computation, then discard it
11:28:08 <jix> but then they aren't nops
11:28:30 <jix> because doing computations is what i'd call an operation
11:28:34 <oklopol> they can evaluate lazily. it's just their semantics
11:28:57 <oklopol> they need to get done what an instruction that does computation and discards it would get done.
11:29:17 <jix> so they are just normal nops in the end
11:29:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, assuming said instructions have no side effects they are nops in other words?
11:29:30 <oklopol> of course, that's the point.
11:29:49 <oklopol> an interpreter can just discard the source
11:29:59 <oklopol> it's the debuggers that make the language interesting :)
11:30:11 <oklopol> really it's just a joke on top of a weird language.
11:30:43 <AnMaster> hm side effect free instruction set
11:31:27 <AnMaster> sure possible to make side effect free languages, but I mean low level instruction set (think asm) that is side effect free
11:32:25 <oklopol> the program consists of a list of operations taken from a set of tuples
11:32:43 <oklopol> regarg being a register given as an argument ofc
11:32:48 <jix> talking of side effects makes only sense if you define some standard input and output that you define to be not a side effect
11:32:52 <oklopol> at least programs in asm can be represented this way
11:32:58 <jix> like for functions the parameter and return value
11:33:00 <oklopol> the set of tuples is finite
11:33:07 <oklopol> so no side-effects can't be tc
11:33:20 <oklopol> unless you give some other definition for either side-effects or asm.
11:33:38 <jix> oklopol: the registers could be infinitely large
11:33:44 <jix> you get a minsky machine then easily
11:33:50 <jix> => turing complete
11:34:04 <jix> ah flow control?
11:34:07 <oklopol> if the program does not have side-effects
11:34:30 <oklopol> so all you have is you can execute any of those instructions, or any amount of them sequentially.
11:34:38 <jix> but if you have enough registers (but finite) you could encode the statemachine in them
11:35:07 <jix> if you chose the right instructions
11:35:17 <oklopol> yes, that basically means having one instruction for each state machine
11:35:39 <jix> you can have one single instruction that works for all statemachines
11:36:02 <jix> it would be a bit complex.... but it could interpret one register as the statemachine description, one as the position in the statemachine, and two as the minsky machine registers
11:36:23 <oklopol> true, you can get an exponential amount of data into one instruction, because the tuple contains any amount of registers.
11:36:38 <oklopol> so yeah, you can get something out of it.
11:36:42 <jix> so 4 registers would be enough
11:37:03 <jix> hmm there are also turing complete minsky machines with 1 register.. so 3 would suffice
11:37:13 <oklopol> but the point is, if you don't have side-effects, you can just have one instruction in the program anyway, because they cannot talk to each other anyway.
11:37:23 <jix> oklopol: yeah
11:37:49 <jix> you just move the side effects to another level were they aren't counted as such
11:38:01 <jix> in this case the register contents
11:38:35 <oklopol> IAU - interpret as unary, no side-effects, but tc on another level.
11:38:47 <oklopol> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Unary this unary
11:43:44 <AnMaster> grr X seems to leak like a sieve
11:44:11 <AnMaster> I mean 600 MB RAM (and growing) usage after X running without a restart for 12 days.
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11:52:27 <fizzie> Incidentally, jitfunge seems to be able to run underload.b98 now; still woefully incomplete, and don't really have free time to work on it, though.
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12:08:58 <jix> hmm i think i have an idea for a new esolang
12:14:35 <jix> inspired by underload but with pattern matching and input
12:41:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | #10 cleans the buffer.
12:45:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i think i have it.
12:45:09 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | It's mine. :-).
13:01:35 <fizzie> Optbot's so possessive.
13:01:36 <optbot> fizzie: of course they don't
13:01:59 <fizzie> optbot: And case-insensitive, too!
13:04:59 <optbot> oerjan: ccbi is apparently the only standard-compilant Funge-98 interp, so that's the one I use
13:06:32 <jix> ^ul (test)S
13:10:22 <ehird> <optbot> oerjan: ccbi is apparently the only standard-compilant Funge-98 interp, so that's the one I use
13:10:25 <ehird> I love it when optbot baits AnMaster
13:10:26 <optbot> ehird: bye.. somebody add the map link to topic! :)
13:12:18 <AnMaster> ehird, when was that said btw?
13:12:37 <AnMaster> I assume before cfunge was developed, or during early development of it
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15:07:12 <Asztal> I just found a quite awful befunge interpreter I wrote
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15:09:44 <fizzie> Everyone probably has a nasty surprise like that in their closet.
15:10:27 <fizzie> I occasionally notice the GLfunge98 sources too when digging around my HD, and feel quite "oh dear"-y.
15:10:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, I believe I have a copy of glfunge around somewhere
15:11:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, any updates to jitfunge?
15:14:42 <fizzie> Bugfixes and bits of STRN, nothing very major. I did update the tarball now.
15:15:38 <fizzie> It runs underload.b98 but very badly, since it keeps recompiling the main interpreter loop. Have to change that a bit at some point.
15:16:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, when you get back: why does it recompile main loop?
15:22:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, mycology fails at "BAD: 7! != 0" now?
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15:49:53 <fizzie> Huh, that's curious. I must've messed something up.
15:50:27 <ehird> fizzie: You said something about a bus?
15:50:45 <fizzie> Yes, from work-place to home-place; I successfully caught it.
15:51:01 <ehird> Oh, I thought it was 15:20
15:51:18 <ehird> This explains things to the brain I use for thinking.
15:53:07 <fizzie> And it recompiles the main loop because of the fact that (to get longer functions) it currently traces code by predicting all branches to be true, which means it generates a single function for the whole main loop; then it ends up hitting that function in multiple locations, which I don't sensibly support yet.
15:55:30 <fizzie> It's a bit non-trivial, since I pass a lot of stuff in registers instead of pushing things onto the stack all the time. I should maybe do the "hit the middle of a function" so that I mark the location as a potential entry-point and recompile the code so that it's possible.
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16:40:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, you mean dynamically changing to make the trace shorter?
16:40:18 <ehird> you know what i want?
16:40:23 <ehird> control of the Storm botnet
16:40:27 <ehird> I would calculate stuff with it.
16:40:36 <ehird> It's a holy-freaking-huge distributed supercomputer!
16:40:52 <ais523> didn't Storm get captured by a group of botnet researchers recently?
16:41:04 <ehird> not captured but i think they used it
16:41:34 <ehird> but srsly, wouldn't it be awesome to be able to calculate stuff on a "computer" with probably the most bandwidth in the world and probably the most processing power in the world?
16:44:12 <ehird> I like how it seems to be semi-autonomous
16:44:21 <ehird> e.g. it ddos'es you seemingly automatic if you try and research into it
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17:22:06 <fizzie> I was thinking of supporting multiple entry-points in the generated functions; that's pretty simple, after all.
17:23:03 <oklopol> http://www.foddy.net/Athletics.html
17:24:15 <fizzie> Back when my code snippets always ended where there was an | the system was pretty good at finding the basic blocks without much help, but that's bit more function-call overhead.
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17:25:35 <ehird> ais523: it's a befunge-98 JIT
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17:26:41 <fizzie> And generates x86 native-code.
17:28:38 <oklopol> (my record is 29.3m, tell me if you beat it, hard to obsess without competition)
17:28:56 <oklopol> (actually not that hard, but anyway)
17:29:25 <fizzie> My record is 2.2 metres, then I closed it.
17:30:06 <oklopol> that's what i assume most people do, no need to tell me.
17:30:47 <ehird> oklopol: i cannot do :<
17:31:24 <oklopol> that's a better response, although still not very useful :P
17:31:24 <fizzie> It seems to be a lot easier to move backwards.
17:31:30 <oklopol> took me about 20 minutes to get it moving
17:31:42 <ehird> i'm making him boogie
17:32:09 <oklopol> i can run now, it's just the balance is goddamn hard to keep even though i know how it's theoretically done.
17:32:39 <oklopol> that movement is pretty limited, i can't see any way to add any kind of exploration to that
17:32:47 <oklopol> but esoteric movement is always esoteric movement
17:33:35 <oklopol> ("one click method" my ass, if i need to choose a mirror, it's a two-click method, which is considerably worse)
17:34:01 <fizzie> I'm not completely certain that game is 100 % realistic.
17:34:21 <ais523> do even better than a one click method: have a one hover method
17:34:29 <ais523> one hover shopping, for instance, could be quite interesting
17:34:35 <ais523> you'd have to be very careful with your mouse movement
17:35:09 <oklopol> aiming for realism is only good when done for inspiration. aiming for realism for realism's sake is pointless
17:35:28 <fizzie> I would like to be able to flip the guy, since it's so very easy to go backwards.
17:36:02 <oklopol> i haven't actually mastered the whole concept, just running forward.
17:36:19 <oklopol> well not that i can explain how running forward is done.
17:36:32 <fizzie> Backwards is doable by simply alternating o and p.
17:36:34 <oklopol> well, wo for one leg, then qp for the other, repeat
17:37:12 <oklopol> if the leg, when rising up, is too far away, over 90 degrees, use either o or p, depending on which you used to lift the leg, to contract it
17:37:27 <fizzie> (Starting with p; and he ends up sort-of running on his toes backwards.)
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17:39:35 <fizzie> Also this seems to sort-of work: keeping both legs spread out as far as possible, then using "qo" to bounce forwards a bit and then "wp" to reset.
17:39:55 <fizzie> Moves forwards by some .1 metres or so.
17:40:55 <oklopol> at 50 meters, there's some kind of hurdle, i hear.
17:42:12 <fizzie> Well, I'm at 14 metres, running on one knee.
17:42:37 <oklopol> if you have the patience, tell me what the hurdle thingie is like.
17:43:12 <fizzie> Sure, if I get that far. 21.4 metres now.
17:43:39 <fizzie> I'd watch them Olympics if they ran this way.
17:47:11 <ehird> fizzie: you're giving me a funny seizure.
17:47:28 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:47:33 <fizzie> Almost fell over backwards when I tried to bounce for more than 30 centimetres.
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17:48:19 <fizzie> Okay, 48.6 metres, found the hurdle.
17:50:03 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/runner.png -- incidentally, that is my running posture.
17:50:32 <fizzie> Sure, but I don't know how I'm going to get over that thing.
17:51:02 <ehird> man, someone call the olympic guys
17:51:06 <ehird> they should do it like this
17:51:42 <ehird> lol i almost rolled a meter
17:52:46 <oklopol> i can run a steady 15 meters, and 20-25 isn't rare
17:52:55 <oklopol> but for some reason i always trip around there.
17:53:01 <oklopol> even though it's just a flat surface.
17:53:08 <fizzie> The hurdle isn't fixed in place.
17:53:13 <fizzie> I just knocked it down.
17:53:22 <fizzie> Maybe I can keep pushing it forward for the next 50 metres.
17:55:09 <fizzie> I'll try; although I got a bit of stuck: http://zem.fi/~fis/runner2.png
17:55:43 <ehird> fizzie: at -2 meters there is an UNCANNILY LARGE GRAY BLOCK
17:55:54 <fizzie> Yes, noticed when I tried to run backwards a bit.
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17:56:25 <fizzie> Seems I can still push that hurdle-thing forward with the right leg, it's just a bit slower.
17:57:24 <ehird> to the huge gray block
17:57:27 <ehird> and run into it :<
18:00:41 <fizzie> Got the fence-thing stuck to my groin for a while, had to jump for quite a while.
18:00:54 <fizzie> Probably not going to win any style points with this.
18:02:59 <fizzie> 70 metres. Almost accidentally got over it, but not quite, and not going to start doing any athletics at this point.
18:06:24 <oklopol> seems kinda pointless now that i learned to run.
18:06:38 <oklopol> especially as there's not even a timer.
18:08:24 <fizzie> But I'm not the only one doing it like this: http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1064/qwopyx9.gif
18:09:55 <fizzie> There seems to be a water thing ahead or something.
18:10:02 <fizzie> But I got past the fence, again accidentally.
18:10:30 <oklopol> the small blue thing just before the goal?
18:10:37 <oklopol> doesn't look too dangerous
18:10:59 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/runner3.png
18:11:13 <fizzie> Maybe it isn't. Will have to see.
18:11:23 <fizzie> Not going to rerun this far if I end up sinking in it or something.
18:12:04 <fizzie> Then comes a sand thing and a measurement tape.
18:12:19 <fizzie> Well, I'm certainly not going to *jump* here.
18:14:46 <fizzie> Final metres: http://zem.fi/~fis/runner4.png http://zem.fi/~fis/runner5.png
18:14:50 <fizzie> That was quite a jump.
18:15:29 <oklopol> were you a nationall hero?
18:16:51 <fizzie> Dunno. We have the same nationality; am I your hero?
18:17:41 <oklopol> what do you think, you just beat a game i've been banging for hours?
18:18:09 <fizzie> You can run to the end and make a longer jump and still beat me. :p
18:18:14 <oklopol> well i guess you could be my nemesis or something.
18:18:33 <oklopol> i was thinking "yes", but "no" works just as well
18:20:39 <oklopol> well, i'll probably play this for the rest of the week, if i finish it, i'll let you know.
18:20:54 <oklopol> now some fun c++ exercises ->
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18:41:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but i don't really concentrate on single words when readin.
18:44:05 <ehird> http://www.foddy.net/Cricket.html
19:01:31 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
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19:34:19 <GregorR> VARIABLE ARGUMENTS BOT AWAAAAy
19:34:42 <Hiato> heh, darn it, the code still doesn't quite work
19:35:15 <Hiato> dang nab it. Oh well, some other time then
19:42:32 <Hiato> not who, ratehr what
19:42:42 <Hiato> it is my attempt at a IRC bot in python
19:42:51 <Hiato> which has been met with partial success
19:43:53 <GregorR> ais523: Can't you see it does nothing?
19:44:00 <Hiato> Currently, it (is supposed to) throw out a random quote of GLaDOS from Portal when you call it's nick
19:44:08 <ais523> well, what is it meant to do is more of the question
19:44:19 <Hiato> but, that needs, er, work (it was working last night with ~q - check the logs)
19:44:37 <Hiato> Overall, I have no idea, interpret an obscure esolang or something
19:45:57 <GregorR> Make it MindBogglinglyInsecureBot and the only command is to exec something.
19:46:24 <Hiato> heh, interesting, but undoubtedly a no from me
19:46:43 -!- vabot2 has joined.
19:48:59 <Hiato> aha, thanks ais523, through the introduction of that two, you showed me the subtle flaw in the code :P
19:49:19 <ais523> programming is weird...
19:49:27 -!- vabot2 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:49:40 -!- vabot3 has joined.
19:50:28 <ais523> there are 3 vabots in here at the moment; vabot, vabot1, vabot3
19:50:44 <Hiato> Yeah, sorry about that, can't seem to get the disconnect string
19:50:49 <Hiato> HAHAH, you crashed it :P
19:51:16 <Hiato> aha, thank you, should be better now :)
19:51:50 <ais523> just cutting the connection works too
19:52:01 <ais523> if you send QUIT, the server will cut the connection
19:52:23 -!- vabot3 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:52:34 -!- vabot3 has joined.
19:52:42 <vabot3> Hiato: My guess is that touching it will just make your life even worse somehow. I don't want to tell you your business, but if it were me Id leave that thing alone.
19:52:50 <Hiato> And there we are :D
19:53:05 <Hiato> and I should be able to make it leave too
19:53:06 <vabot3> ais523: COMPANION CUBE, You said to take care of it, How can I, You wouldn't let me, I should disregard your, advice Leave me alone!
19:53:07 -!- vabot3 has quit (Client Quit).
19:53:28 <Hiato> hoorah! thanks ais523 :D
19:54:50 -!- vabot has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:56:45 -!- vabot1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:57:17 -!- vabot has joined.
19:57:25 <Hiato> vabot, tell me about marx
19:57:28 <vabot> Hiato: Momentum, a function of mass and velocity, is conserved between portals. In layman's terms, speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out.
19:58:14 <vabot> Hiato: Though earth and man are gone, I thought the cube would last forever, I WAS WRONG
19:58:26 -!- vabot has quit (Client Quit).
19:59:11 <ais523> btw, what reason did you give? Freenode won't show people unless it's been connected for a while, to avoid quit msg spam
19:59:30 <Hiato> s.send('QUIT :underflow\r\n')
19:59:58 <ais523> I reckon... oklopol this time
20:00:16 <Hiato> now my only gripe is with string.find('blah')
20:00:27 <jix> hmm what would be a funny esolang to write an irc bot in?
20:00:40 <ais523> jix: some of the best ones are already taken
20:00:55 <jix> Hiato: i knew this answer would come
20:00:57 <ais523> you could do INTERCAL if you're willing to work around the lack of any sort of string handling, it's pretty flexible and usable otherwise
20:01:03 <ais523> for an esolang, that is
20:01:25 <ais523> Unlambda could be interesting
20:01:42 <Hiato> yeah, try a functional language
20:01:43 <ais523> Thutu and Funge-98 have already been done
20:02:06 -!- vabot has joined.
20:02:06 <vabot> n;: That thing you burned up inst important to me. Its the fluid catalytic cracking unit. It made shoes for orphans. Nice job breaking it, hero.
20:02:39 <vabot> Hiato: Are you trying to escape? [High-pitched laughter] Things have changed since you last left the building. Whats going on outside will make you wish you were back in here. I have an infinite capacity for knowledge, and even I'm not sure whats going on outside.
20:02:56 -!- olsner has joined.
20:03:02 <vabot> Hiato: Well, you found me. Congratulations. Was it worth it? Because despite your violent behavior, all you have managed to break so far, is my heart. Why don't we just leave it at that and call it a day?
20:03:14 <Hiato> Oh well, guess no Karl Marx quotes for a while then
20:04:00 <Hiato> Hrmm, I could probably start perpetual bot chatter here. Does fungbot respond with a nick?
20:04:16 <Hiato> and what language is it's input in?
20:04:19 <vabot> ais523: That thing you burned up inst important to me. Its the fluid catalytic cracking unit. It made shoes for orphans. Nice job breaking it, hero.
20:04:20 <vabot> fungot: My guess is that touching it will just make your life even worse somehow. I don't want to tell you your business, but if it were me Id leave that thing alone.
20:04:20 <fungot> vabot: added: actually i don't think this is intended to mean that the predecessors to the edomites, of whom fnord were men, fnord print fnord for women, an obnoxious person, any person) on this matter.
20:04:21 <vabot> fungot: As part of a required test protocol, our previous statement suggesting that we would not monitor this chamber was an outright fabrication.
20:04:22 <fungot> vabot: could someone describe an actual experimental measuring method? i'm attempting this as a pseudo trumpet? user:dcb1995david 07:21, 24 february 2007 ( utc))
20:04:23 <vabot> fungot: Time out for a second ...that wasn't supposed to happen. Did you see that thing that fell out of me? What is that? Its not the surprise- Ive never seen it before. Never mind- its a mystery Ill solve later... by myself...because youll be dead.
20:04:23 <fungot> vabot: best regards, cam. fnord 14:20, 23 june 2006 ( utc)
20:04:24 <vabot> fungot: COMPANION CUBE, You said to take care of it, How can I, You wouldn't let me, I should disregard your, advice Leave me alone!
20:04:25 <fungot> vabot: as you can see, the dismantling has not been reading uk press reports on this either widely or closely, her dog, fnord is covered on the page
20:04:26 <vabot> fungot: Superstition perceiving inanimate objects as alive, and hallucinations Im not hallucinating. You are. The companion cube would never desert me. Desert. So long ... Cake. Ha ha Cake. A lie. The companion cube would never lie to me.
20:04:38 <ais523> Hiato: fungot has an anti-loop provision
20:04:38 <fungot> ais523: earlier, i made this edit on september 14th. on september 15th, a series of pages on these matters. a page for the article, but i have a fnord
20:04:55 <Hiato> ooh, fancy aint it? I see, and who wrote it?
20:05:00 <ais523> and Underload or Brainfuck
20:05:05 <ais523> and fungot is fizzie's
20:05:06 <fungot> ais523: the term " pseudostrong" atheist comes to mind as an appropriate label, in the next week. kb fnord 20:01, 4 april 2007 ( utc))
20:05:15 <ais523> thutubot does Underload, but it doesn't respond to its nick
20:05:34 <Hiato> Hrmm, what language should vabot do?
20:05:35 <vabot> Hiato: Well, you found me. Congratulations. Was it worth it? Because despite your violent behavior, all you have managed to break so far, is my heart. Why don't we just leave it at that and call it a day?
20:05:59 <AnMaster> ais523, how goes gcc-bf? ick? feather?
20:06:09 <AnMaster> I got a good name for a feather interpreter btw.
20:06:10 <ais523> ick's the only one with activity
20:06:28 <AnMaster> ais523, two ideas: 1) pen 2) bird
20:07:04 <AnMaster> 2) pens have traditionally been made from feathers
20:07:22 <oklopol> it also sound pretty mundane and boring :d
20:07:31 <oklopol> feather could be the name of a pen interpreter
20:07:55 <oklopol> that's good, but no one would get it.
20:08:37 <jix> nah i don't want to write an irc bot in unlambda
20:09:42 <vabot> Hiato: Not in cruelty, Not in wrath, The REAPER came today, An ANGEL visited, this gray path, And took the cube away.
20:10:10 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:10:45 -!- vabot1 has joined.
20:11:00 <vabot1> Hiato: The cake is a lie
20:11:08 <vabot1> Hiato: As part of a required test protocol, our previous statement suggesting that we would not monitor this chamber was an outright fabrication.
20:11:10 <vabot1> GregorR: Id just like to point out that you were given every opportunity to succeed. There was even going to be a party for you. A big party that all your friends were invited to. I invited your best friend the companion cube. Of course, he couldn't come because you murdered him. All your other friends couldn't come either because you don't have any other friends. Because of how unlikable you are. It says so here in your personnel file: Un
20:11:26 <vabot1> Hiato: My guess is that touching it will just make your life even worse somehow. I don't want to tell you your business, but if it were me Id leave that thing alone.
20:11:30 <vabot1> oerjan: Do you think I'm trying to trick you with reverse psychology? Seriously now...
20:13:26 <Hiato> Sorry about this all, but may I proceed with some testing?
20:13:43 <ais523> Hiato: I don't mind, although it's usual to create a new channel for that sort of thing
20:13:44 <Hiato> (or does anyone know a blank channel?)
20:13:49 <ais523> try #esoteric-blah, that's what it was created for
20:14:23 <ais523> you can just create a new blank channel by /joining it, though, if nobody's using it you end up alone in the channel with op, and can do what you like there within reason
20:14:40 <Hiato> Aha, I see, thanks once more
20:15:16 <oerjan> but of course, #esoteric-blah allows those who like esoteric bot testing to watch
20:17:18 <optbot> fungot: ctrl+alt+del is your friend
20:17:38 <fizzie> I've also ignored them more permanent bots, but this new one seems to have a rather variable name.
20:17:47 <fizzie> It's matched against the full nick!user@host prefix.
20:18:10 <oerjan> fungot: would you ignore someone saying thutubot!
20:18:11 <fungot> oerjan: sorry, the ancient land of the free and the home of the brave? fnord
20:18:25 <fizzie> No, it's only matched to the prefix part of the message.
20:19:02 <fungot> ais523: please ' ' ' this'" wikipedia article constitutes fair use. in addition to the wikipedia:image copyright tags/ fair useboilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with wp:fufair use.
20:19:40 <fizzie> "WP:FUFAIR" is a new one, I think.
20:20:38 <fizzie> Probably has been a link like [[WP:FU|fair use]] but with the notation stripped.
20:22:00 <fizzie> fungot: Maybe you should go back to IRC logs from Wikipedia again.
20:22:01 <fungot> fizzie: unless you mean it takes an element filter procedure, but maybe i will when i start fixing it rather than to trigger wind points on the turn before to nail his mortar-wielding gear.
20:22:10 <oerjan> <ais523> one hover shopping, for instance, could be quite interesting
20:22:41 <ais523> or even better, one mouseover shopping
20:24:51 <oerjan> fizzie: you're getting a lot of corpora, maybe you could make a fungot command to switch between them? (i assume you are doing it manually now)
20:24:52 <fungot> oerjan: change that at will. though that proof is tough in general, and in essence: yes.
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20:42:00 <ehird> fizzie: If you don't unignore optbot, it will wage war against fungot. :-P
20:42:01 <fungot> ehird: yes, i am curious about imail as wel. maybe some people would be motivated to look into
20:42:08 <ehird> optbot: no, please no demonstrations
20:42:08 <optbot> ehird: i mean, as well as the clever domain pun
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20:47:51 -!- AnMaster has joined.
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20:49:51 <Hiato> If you must kill him, be kind. Simpy calling his nick like this: vabot results in him quoting portal
20:49:52 <vabot> Hiato: Superstition perceiving inanimate objects as alive, and hallucinations Im not hallucinating. You are. The companion cube would never desert me. Desert. So long ... Cake. Ha ha Cake. A lie. The companion cube would never lie to me.
20:50:18 <Hiato> saying vabot, tell Hiato so and so causes him to record everything that you told him in a log for me
20:50:19 <vabot> Hiato: Harked and marked
20:50:47 <Hiato> and finally, you can ask vabout about marx to which he will reply
20:50:56 <vabot> From each according to his ability, to each according to his need
20:51:16 <Hiato> so goodnight and cheers
20:51:23 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
20:59:43 <fizzie> Yes, currently I just have the model.bin and tokens.bin be symlinks I can easily swap.
21:08:43 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:09:44 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais524.
21:10:25 <oerjan> oh no, he's mutating again
21:10:36 <ais524> oerjan: <AnMaster> ais523++
21:10:39 <ais524> you can blame it on him
21:10:52 <ais524> it was just a simple increment...
21:11:06 <jix> but since when do variables change name when you increment them?
21:11:14 <ais524> someone put me back to normal, please, it feels weird for me not to be odd
21:11:43 <jix> ais524 |= 1 // should make you odd enough
21:11:44 -!- ais524 has changed nick to ais274576.
21:11:48 <oerjan> to late, now you're even square
21:11:54 -!- ais274576 has changed nick to ais274577.
21:12:20 -!- ais274577 has changed nick to aisNAN.
21:12:32 * oerjan points out that was no assignment
21:12:49 <aisNAN> /= is an assignment...
21:12:51 <jix> getting rid of nan without assignment is hard....
21:12:54 * oerjan goes to exorcise some haskell
21:13:54 <jix> *(int*)&aisNAN *= 0
21:14:05 <jix> i hope i got precedence right
21:14:32 <AnMaster> jix, that is invalid aliasing I believe, not sure though
21:14:46 <AnMaster> but I don't think there is any warranty for it
21:14:47 <jix> AnMaster: but in practice it does work.... even though it's dirty as hell
21:15:13 <oerjan> but is int the right size?
21:15:15 <AnMaster> (guarantee and warranty is the same word in Swedish)
21:15:24 <aisNAN> jix: that failed for some reason, not sure, but my padding bits seem a bit empty
21:15:27 <oerjan> i fear you are only filling in part of him
21:15:45 <jix> if he is a float it works
21:16:03 <jix> AnMaster: why shouldn't it work?
21:16:16 <AnMaster> jix, sizeof(int) can be something else than 4
21:16:22 <oerjan> what is the value of ehird
21:16:23 <AnMaster> and CHAR_BITS something else than 8
21:16:32 <jix> AnMaster: well usually it would work
21:16:34 <AnMaster> jix, while float is always 32-bit on IEEE conforming ones
21:16:47 -!- aisNAN has changed nick to ais523.
21:17:10 <vabot> ehird: Superstition perceiving inanimate objects as alive, and hallucinations Im not hallucinating. You are. The companion cube would never desert me. Desert. So long ... Cake. Ha ha Cake. A lie. The companion cube would never lie to me.
21:17:15 <ehird> vabot: tell vabot to vabot
21:17:16 <vabot> ehird: Keep doing whatever it is you think you're doing. Killing you and giving you good advice aren't mutually exclusive. The rocket really is the way to go.
21:17:20 <jix> memset(&aisNAN,0,(size_t)-1);
21:17:20 <ehird> vabot: tell ehird to test
21:17:22 <vabot> ehird: Well, you found me. Congratulations. Was it worth it? Because despite your violent behavior, all you have managed to break so far, is my heart. Why don't we just leave it at that and call it a day?
21:17:28 <vabot> AnMaster: That thing you burned up inst important to me. Its the fluid catalytic cracking unit. It made shoes for orphans. Nice job breaking it, hero.
21:17:34 <jix> that should fill enough!!!111
21:17:35 <vabot> jix: [fake-coughing] Neurotoxin... so deadly... Choking... [laughs] Kidding! When I said deadly neurotoxin, the deadly was in massive sarcasm quotes. I could take a bath in this stuff, put it on cereal, rub it right into my eyes, honestly, its not deadly at all. To me. You, on the other hand, are going to find its deadliness a lot less funny.
21:17:39 <ais523> "Killing you and giving you good advice aren't mutually exclusive" <--- that's sigabble, I suppose...
21:17:39 <optbot> AnMaster: so you have (CAR (CONS A B)) = ((LAMBDA (X Y) X) A B) = A
21:18:05 <vabot> AnMaster: As part of a required test protocol, our previous statement suggesting that we would not monitor this chamber was an outright fabrication.
21:19:14 <AnMaster> and what can it do except talk?
21:19:33 <oerjan> supposedly remember messages to hiato
21:20:13 <oerjan> it's just been hacked together, don't expect too much yet :D
21:22:15 <AnMaster> I should write that irc bot in erlang that I planned
21:22:30 <AnMaster> for now I guess I could join that irc bot in bash that I have
21:23:20 -!- envbot has joined.
21:24:45 <oerjan> envbot: so what do you do?
21:25:12 * ais523 tries to remember what envbot's prefix is
21:25:25 <envbot> Available commands: modload, modunload, modreload, modlist, rehash, dumpvars, provides, commands, join, part, quote, say, act, raw, eix, help, modinfo, learn, forget, lock factoid, unlock factoid, whatis, factoid stats, bugs search, bug, karma, roll, seen, kick, ban, convert
21:25:50 <AnMaster> no recent development on it though
21:26:12 <jix> -raw what?
21:26:34 <AnMaster> - 2008-11-10 22:26:12 ERROR jix!n=jix@dyndsl-095-033-065-114.ewe-ip-backbone.de tried to "send a raw line" but lacks access.
21:26:34 <AnMaster> > 2008-11-10 22:26:12 RAW NOTICE jix :Permission denied. You need the capability "sendraw" to do this action.
21:26:57 <AnMaster> < 2008-11-10 22:26:42 RAW :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ERROR was dark red
21:28:03 <envbot> envbot is a modular IRC bot in bash. More info can be found at http://envbot.org
21:28:22 <AnMaster> -learn envbot is a modular IRC bot in bash. More info can be found at http://envbot.kuonet.org
21:28:23 <envbot> Ok AnMaster, I will remember, envbot is a modular IRC bot in bash. More info can be found at http://envbot.kuonet.org
21:28:35 <AnMaster> ehird, well everyone else joined their bots
21:28:39 <ehird> who let envbot in here?
21:28:50 <AnMaster> ehird, everyone else joined bots
21:28:57 <fizzie> It's a very botty channel these days.
21:29:08 <ehird> fizzie: envbot is shit, though.
21:29:11 <ehird> you have to take these things into account.
21:29:16 <ehird> or what kind of op are you?!
21:29:34 <AnMaster> because I wrote it in bash just for fun?
21:29:48 <AnMaster> I think writing it in befunge or so is at the same level
21:30:05 <AnMaster> but, I mean level of insaneness
21:30:23 -!- Corun has left (?).
21:30:55 <AnMaster> ehird, are you ignoring me? or just refusing to respond ;)
21:31:12 <jix> hmm writing an irc bot in awk
21:31:22 <jix> or even sed?
21:31:38 <jix> i'm going to use my native awk which doesn't
21:31:49 <AnMaster> jix, right, that would would be easy
21:32:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, issuse with sed: can you generate output without any input?
21:32:26 <jix> i think sed would be more tricky
21:32:47 <fizzie> I'm sure you can work-around that, for example by having the script read/write some fifos which you prime with an "INIT" line.
21:33:16 <AnMaster> $ awk 'BEGIN { print "NICK foo" }'
21:33:33 <jix> well awk can do that but can sed do it
21:33:40 <fizzie> But no, I don't think a sed script can do anything before the first line of input comes in.
21:33:52 <fizzie> Still, you just just need to give it a line.
21:34:39 <jix> but i don't use sed a lot
21:34:49 <jix> i always use awk except for simple search/replace
21:35:09 <AnMaster> jix, you could trivially do it in awk, the pattern matching of awk would be perfect even
21:35:12 <fizzie> I've done a bit of programming with sed, just because.
21:35:12 <ehird> do we even have an underload bot
21:35:22 <ais523> ehird: Underload doesn't have input
21:35:24 <jix> AnMaster: yeah that's why i don't want to use it
21:35:39 <ehird> i'm sure i could get around it.
21:35:41 <ais523> so it couldn't respond to pings
21:35:43 <ais523> except by flooding the server
21:35:47 <ais523> as it doesn't have time delays either
21:35:50 <ais523> AnMaster: how should I know?
21:35:55 <ehird> i could make it automatically push or sth
21:36:02 <AnMaster> ais523, since he refused to answer why he thought envbot was bad
21:36:48 <jix> hmm makebot?
21:37:22 <ehird> make is just shell
21:37:39 <jix> well without using any external tools except echo of course
21:37:43 <jix> (and nc for network)
21:37:46 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/archived_prog/sed$ sed -f fib2.sed
21:37:46 <fizzie> 002584|001597|000987|000610|000377|000233|000144|000089|000055|000034|000021|000013|000008|000005|000003|000002|000001|000001|
21:37:52 <fizzie> (First line is input.)
21:38:41 <ais523> fizzie: the answer is backwards, though...
21:39:03 * ais523 tries to remember if they have an Underload interp in sed somewhere
21:39:22 <fizzie> I seem to have another version which takes a decimal N as input and gives the Nth number of the sequence as output.
21:39:57 <fizzie> Oh, and that one (fib.sed) does it recursively; fib2.sed is iterative.
21:40:09 <fizzie> Have to sleep now though, g'night.
21:40:26 <ais523> nope, only Perl, JS and Thutu
21:40:55 <AnMaster> ais523, should be easy enough to write one in C or so
21:41:10 <ais523> ehird and I have an Underload to C /compiler/
21:41:10 <AnMaster> ais523, heck I could probably hack one up in erlang if you want
21:41:19 <ais523> and yes, Underload is very easy to interpret
21:41:51 <ais523> befunge is harder, surely
21:42:04 <ais523> you need to match parens
21:42:49 <ais523> some time, I'm going to finish off Underlambda, which I was actually thinking about last night
21:42:58 <ais523> it's like Underload but fixed and high-level (i.e. more commands)
21:43:10 <ais523> designed to be easy to write in, easy to compile into, easy to compile from, easy to interpret
21:43:24 <AnMaster> ais523, so what makes it an eso lang?
21:43:27 <ais523> fixed: with input, correct S so it doesn't block compilation into concatenative and functional langs
21:43:43 <ais523> AnMaster: would you call Underload an esolang? If so, why?
21:43:55 <ais523> esolang does not necessarily imply difficult to use
21:44:01 <ais523> also, Lisp is a tarpit
21:44:31 <ais523> well, Underlambda is designed to be an intermediate lang for compilations
21:44:44 <ais523> I had a working Unlambda -> Underlambda compiler once, but deleted it by mistake
21:44:48 <ais523> I should reconstruct it some time
21:45:06 <AnMaster> ais523, hm someone should make a high level, usable esolang
21:45:36 <AnMaster> like say, Haskell or C usability and usefulness, yet an esolang
21:46:18 <ais523> also, INTERCAL would be almost, it just needs a string library and more practical expression syntax
21:46:47 <AnMaster> idea: intracal (should be written all lowercase)
21:47:30 <ais523> FWIW, Funge-98 is getting pretty high level and libraryy atm
21:47:41 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but still hard to code in
21:47:46 <ais523> (libraryy = not real word, library + -y, meaning "full of libraries")
21:47:53 <ais523> and is Funge really that hard to code in?
21:48:12 <AnMaster> ais523, well no, but it is write-only
21:48:42 <ais523> AnMaster: but much less so than Unlambda
21:48:50 <ais523> and actually I find Funge one of the easier esolangs to read
21:49:06 <ais523> reading an unknown Funge program is slightly easier than reading an unknown INTERCAL program IMO
21:49:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I was just about to say the reverse
21:49:25 <ais523> you have to know how I read programs to understand why, though
21:49:29 <AnMaster> but I guess I only seen commented examples
21:49:30 <ais523> I like to read programs in the order they run
21:49:36 <ais523> in Funge, that's relatively obvious
21:49:45 <ais523> one command runs, then the next, then the next
21:49:54 <ais523> most langs have expression syntaxes that make it much harder to read
21:49:55 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't maintain a stack with more than 4 or 5 items in my head
21:50:12 <ais523> AnMaster: how many more elements than 4 or 5 are typically relevant at once, though?
21:50:16 <AnMaster> so I prefer structured languages
21:50:34 <AnMaster> ais523, well depends, once you pop them you suddenly need more
21:51:05 <ais523> AnMaster: but they're in a different scope
21:51:39 <AnMaster> ais523, also it hard to know where a scope begins or ends
21:51:45 <AnMaster> ais523, now RUBE is easy to read
21:51:54 <AnMaster> I would say easier than befunge
21:52:18 <ais523> can you track its flow control?
21:52:18 <ais523> I'm not even convinced it's TC
21:52:50 <AnMaster> ais523, also yes I can do that
21:52:51 <ais523> RUBE? I don't think so
21:52:52 <jix> hmm a cellular automaton irc bot....
21:52:56 <jix> that would be... crazy
21:52:59 <ais523> RedGreen is, but only because it embeds the Game of Life
21:53:11 <jix> letting letters walk over the screen ^^
21:53:11 <AnMaster> "RUBE is Turing complete, but only if you give it an unbounded playing field."
21:53:20 <jayCampbell> "Attempting to write anything even approaching a single "Turing-power" in this language is an utter nightmare."
21:53:29 <ais523> what do you have to fill the playfield with?
21:53:36 <ais523> probably something as convoluted as the 2,3 pattern
21:53:39 <AnMaster> ais523, you can have generators after all
21:54:18 <AnMaster> ; special replicator rev rev yes no
21:54:27 <AnMaster> iirc you place an identical block just above
21:56:45 <AnMaster> <jayCampbell> "Attempting to write anything even approaching a single "Turing-power" in this language is an utter nightmare." <-- from where is that quote?
21:57:34 <jix> well i have an idea for another esolang (not really underload based anymore) that'll implement soon and write an irc bot in i think
21:57:37 <AnMaster> jayCampbell, also what is turing power?
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21:58:40 <ehird> ais523: what are the underload-dei transformations again?
21:58:59 <ais523> ehird: you expect me to remember off the top of my head after all this time?
21:59:10 <ais523> I didn't save them anywhere
21:59:42 <jayCampbell> http://catseye.tc/projects/rube/doc/rube.html
22:01:16 <AnMaster> jayCampbell, well if you remove the 80x25 restriction...
22:06:35 <ehird> lol, i inspired zzo38 to write a browser.
22:06:46 <ehird> a shit one, albeit.
22:06:55 <ais523> I haven't seen zzo38 around in ages...
22:07:06 <ehird> he never goes anywhere but his own site, it seems.
22:07:16 <ehird> i just read the posts there for laughs, because he's completely bonkers
22:08:40 <ehird> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/
22:08:45 <ehird> Specifically, Chronojournal.
22:09:05 <ais523> nothing wrong with Chronojournal...
22:09:28 <ehird> except for being hideously hard to use and ugly and bloated and crazy and yeah
22:09:58 <ehird> his post of his browser announcement is a few posts back
22:10:03 <ehird> and my comment linking to conkeror is one post before.
22:10:25 <ehird> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/chrono/zzo38/1216426880 This is pretty much my favourite post of his.
22:11:43 <ehird> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/chrono/zzo38/1203755544 possibly tops it
22:11:50 <ehird> [[# Power to commit suicide: I don't need that because it is better to live than to die. If I wanted to commit suicide anyways I can do it in other ways other than just this, anyways. ]]
22:12:03 <ehird> [[# Power to be the prime minister: I wouldn't know how to be prime minister. I would probably make everything wrong, even though I have a lot of good ideas. ]]
22:15:48 <AnMaster> ehird, power to avoid silly blog?
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03:21:19 <CakeProphet> would anyone like to explain monads for me?
03:25:14 <warrie> Do you understand type constructors?
03:25:40 <warrie> See if you can explain them to me.
03:29:25 <warrie> It's likely you'll want to understand them better than that.
03:30:08 <warrie> A good example, but unfortunately, it contains no type constructors.
03:34:29 <CakeProphet> then what, pray tell, is a type constructor?
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03:43:12 <warrie> Consider this: data Maybe a = Just a | Nothing
03:43:20 <warrie> CakeProphet, do you know what all that does?
03:45:10 <warrie> Hmm, I think my idiom failed.
03:45:15 <warrie> CakeProphet, do you know what-all that does?
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03:49:10 <warrie> If not, find out, I guess. In there, "Maybe" is a type constructor. A monad is a certain sort of type constructor.
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03:58:55 <warrie> And I'll be going to bed now. Good night, everyone.
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09:10:07 <fizzie> oklopol: How goes your running?
09:11:43 <oklopol> tbh i actually just spelt during the night :|
09:12:03 <ais523> is spelling or sleeping a better way to spend your time overnight, I wonder?
09:12:23 <oklopol> spelling is trivial, so i'd say better just rest.
09:13:21 <fizzie> "*snore* e-s-o-t-e-r-i-c, esoteric *snore*"
09:14:03 <ais523> anyway, good morning oklopol, fizzie
09:14:59 <oklopol> 21.4 meters is my record for today now
09:15:40 <oklopol> i've already attended a lecture and come home, though, so i consider this afternoon.
09:16:23 <fizzie> Personally I'd classify this as fi:aamupäivä (fi:aamu = en:morning, fi:päivä = en:day), which is something between morning and midday; is there a proper word for it?
09:16:39 <fizzie> It's not afternoon if it's not after noon.
09:16:50 <ais523> not in English, I don't think, but there should be a word for that
09:20:02 <fizzie> Curious omission; Wikipedia's "parts of a day" template has dawn/dusk, sunrise/sunset, morning/evening pairs and noon + afternoon; there really should be a "prenoon" or something.
09:21:13 <Hiato> vabot, the tribe as spoken, die
09:23:42 <fizzie> How many-sided is a vabot die?
09:26:25 <ais523> fizzie: it's the quit command, I think, not a randomizer
09:37:39 <Dewi> fizzie: morning and evening are opposites?
09:38:00 <Dewi> fizzie: people treat morning as lasting 10+ hours and evening as 1.5 if you're lucky
09:38:45 <fizzie> Around here morning is not very long, definitely not longer than evening.
09:39:28 <fizzie> Maybe that's because we actually have a pre-noon, post-morning word.
09:40:25 <ais523> day covers the afternoon more than the morning in English, or just both
09:40:27 <ais523> or indeed an entire 24-hour period
09:40:29 <Dewi> nah, day and night just divide a 24 hour span into halves
09:40:42 <ais523> day is ambiguous in English, it has lots of meanings
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09:41:06 <Dewi> you can't fit "day" in between the spans we're talking about at any rate
09:41:29 <ais523> "late morning" would probably work
09:41:45 <Dewi> late describes my mornings well
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09:49:43 <fizzie> Meh, I should test things before trying them out with the live fungot.
09:49:54 <ais523> what are you trying to do?
09:50:07 <fizzie> I'll let you know when I get it done. :p
09:50:38 * oklopol likes it when people debug their bots here :D
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09:51:35 <fizzie> (There's nothing new yet, I just restarted it.)
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10:24:05 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
10:24:09 <fungot> Selected style: europarl
10:24:12 <fizzie> fungot: How do you feel?
10:24:15 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i must say firstly that we must draw our own conclusions without being aware of or not mentioning our weaknesses. i will propose, on the other hand, think it regrettable that not more time is devoted to the participation of non-governmental organisations providing humanitarian aid and we take this debate to establish compensatory measures to address the weaknesses in the fifth environmental action programm
10:25:10 <fungot> ais523: e275 don't byte off more than 2 from the `while' and `write in' or `next from' thread will not be an infinite loop; so don't allow that to happen); at present, the input. there is also specified in the same variable twice in the expression needs to be evaluated in order for the full details of the intercal program).
10:25:56 <fizzie> Yep. Although I'm not sure what that one style is.
10:26:02 <fizzie> fungot: how do you speak now?
10:26:04 <fungot> fizzie: leon. how many women saw this child of his? aron. what, will not conclude their plotted tragedie. beaufords red sparkling eyes blab his heart's malice, and do your best to make his entrance more sweet, and sowre, as husbands have. what is your graces pleasure? buck. euen that ( i hope) which pleaseth god aboue, and the poore state esteeme him as a carkasse fit for hounds: and let mee feele your pulse
10:26:11 <ais523> shakespeare, presumably
10:26:26 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style; ^bool
10:26:49 <fizzie> ^def help ul (^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool)S
10:27:06 <ais523> ah, I never realise that the help wasn't hardcoded...
10:27:18 <fungot> (^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool)S
10:27:19 <fizzie> It used to be, but I changed it like that for easier modification.
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10:28:23 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help
10:28:25 <fungot> This command is now a built-in thing.
10:28:54 <fungot> (http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt)S
10:29:19 <fizzie> That 'ul' string is just defined "as an underload program" (since those are stored and displayed as simple strings).
10:29:29 <fizzie> It's not actually executable because the ^ul builtin is handled first.
10:29:58 <fizzie> I'm not sure what has happened to wc; it used to be the brainfuck word-count program.
10:30:10 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
10:30:19 <fizzie> Oh, should update that one.
10:31:56 <ais523> fizzie: why do you load TOYS?
10:32:34 <fizzie> The 'S' command from TOYS is used to clear the funge-space on ^reload.
10:32:56 <fizzie> Since the spaces are transparent in 'i' when it loads the changed copy.
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10:33:13 <ais523> I know why the clearing was needed, just didn't realise TOYS did that
10:33:28 <fizzie> There's a "fill area with value" command in there.
10:34:12 <ais523> by the way, do you load fingerprints one at a time as you need them
10:35:05 <fizzie> I keep FING, STRN, SOCK and SCKE loaded all the times, but the others I load when I need them.
10:35:18 <ais523> or do you do out of order ) ( trickery to get lots of commands you use at the top of fingerprint stacks simultaneously?
10:35:37 <ais523> oh, and you use FING in order to manipulate the fingerprint stacks
10:35:52 <fizzie> I mostly just use FING to do some permanent renames so that the commands I use often are always available.
10:36:08 <ais523> yes, that's what I guessed you'd have done with it
10:36:24 <fizzie> And I tend to rename G/P from STRN to K/B whenever I need to use FILE; that one is loaded by the state-file loading, random babbling, and maybe something else too.
10:37:26 <fizzie> I also keep REXP (if it is supported; it's optional) loaded all the time for the ignore function.
10:38:08 <ais523> does REXP allow recursive regexen?
10:38:39 <fizzie> I don't think so. Although it's not exactly well-specified what dialog of regexps it uses.
10:39:22 <fizzie> The "API" (flags and such) is pretty much taken from the POSIX regcomp, so that's what cfunge at least uses.
10:40:54 <ais523> is there a PCRE fingerprint?
10:40:57 <fizzie> It also supports only a single compiled regex (per-IP in RC/Funge-98, globally in cfunge, I think); thankfully I only use one (the ignore expression), otherwise I'd have to be compiling it all the time.
10:41:19 <ais523> Funge needs a better regex fingerprint, really
10:41:33 <fizzie> PCRE would be quite suitable since it already has a fingerprint-friendly name.
10:41:46 <ais523> yes, and it's better regexen too
10:44:12 <fizzie> ^style some_non_existent_thing
10:44:17 <fizzie> Yay, that thing also worked.
10:44:39 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
10:44:50 <ais523> ^style ../fungot.b98.txt
10:45:00 <ais523> ok, worth a try I suppose...
10:45:09 <ais523> ^style ../../fungot.b98.txt
10:45:14 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
10:45:14 <fizzie> Heh. Actually it just matches against that explicit list I gave it.
10:45:35 <fizzie> The actual files are model.bin.<style> and tokens.bin.<style>, anyway.
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11:26:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is wrong with POSIX extended regex?
11:28:05 <ais523> AnMaster: it's REXP I'm complaining about: it only supports one compiled regex at a time
11:28:33 <AnMaster> ais523, yes either globally or per ip
11:28:37 <AnMaster> depending on which interpreter
11:28:46 <AnMaster> since it was underspecced as usual
11:29:00 <ais523> but what's wrong with POSIX extended is that they can't be recursive
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11:29:14 <AnMaster> ais523, hm how does a recursive regex look?
11:29:30 <AnMaster> I can't remember ever using, nor seeing, that
11:30:06 <fizzie> PCRE has a custom syntax for it; I think Perl does it yet differently.
11:30:45 <ais523> I think it's (?R) as the custom syntax
11:30:49 <fizzie> You can use (?R) to match the regex recursively, yes.
11:30:54 <AnMaster> well example of how it is used
11:30:59 <fizzie> \( ( (?>[^()]+) | (?R) )* \)
11:31:02 <fizzie> For nested parentheses.
11:31:03 <AnMaster> since I can't really picture what a recursive regex does
11:31:11 <fizzie> Straight from the manual.
11:31:19 <ais523> and Perl has that too but only very recent versions, it had a different syntax earlier
11:31:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, does that mean "one or more same as the parathesis this is in"?
11:31:51 * ais523 tries to remember what ?> does
11:32:04 <ais523> AnMaster: (?R) is a copy of the entire regex it's in
11:32:18 <fizzie> It matches anything with valid ()s.
11:32:48 <ais523> there are also syntaxes to match bits of it
11:33:00 <ais523> or recurse bits of it, anyway
11:33:12 <ais523> not as elegant as Cyclexa's recursion syntax IMO, but they have to start somewhere I guess...
11:33:27 <AnMaster> also PERL is truly slow and probably buggy
11:33:30 <fizzie> That example works by matching the opening (, then an arbitrary amount of subsequences that either contain no ()s or a correctly ()ied string, and finally the closing ).
11:33:39 <AnMaster> at least the way it is implemented for stuff not running in perl
11:33:59 <AnMaster> lot of messy forking and messing with file descriptors
11:34:21 <oklopol> what are the syntaxes to match parts of it?
11:34:33 <fizzie> oklopol: (?N) recurses to the Nth parenthesized submatch.
11:34:52 <ais523> oklopol: it's $N in Cyclexa
11:34:53 <fizzie> oklopol: And (?P>name) recurses to (?P<name> ... ) group.
11:34:58 <ais523> with $0 to match the whole thing
11:35:02 <AnMaster> the only "?" bits in PCRE I tend to use are
11:35:39 <oklopol> i would've done more like "wef.*{rec:(a+[csa](?rec)rgeeaa)}gerhr", and rec would be the recursion
11:35:45 <AnMaster> wonder if I'm disconnected or just lagging
11:35:48 <oklopol> and recurse up to {rec:...}
11:36:12 <oklopol> fizzie seems to have described something liek that.
11:36:24 <ais523> oklopol: that's possible in PCRE but even uglier, wef.*(?P<rec>(a+[csa](?P>rec)rgeeaa))gerhr
11:36:24 <fizzie> All the regex extensions tend to start with "(?" since that makes no sense in a traditional regex.
11:36:51 <AnMaster> oh and I managed to crash PCRE with that a few times
11:37:02 <AnMaster> don't remember the regex I used
11:37:12 <oklopol> i don't like keywords, and "P" seems like a keyword to me.
11:37:12 <AnMaster> with both lookbehind and lookahead
11:38:14 <oklopol> but otherwise, i like that
11:38:27 <AnMaster> due to these issues with pcre I'm unlikely to actually implement any PCRE fingerprint, unless someone convince me that PCRE actually isn't buggy any more
11:38:27 <oklopol> conceptually; perhaps only because that's what i would've done.
11:38:34 <ais523> oklopol: would you consider a to be a keyword in Underload?
11:39:32 <oklopol> don't ask me why, i don't even know why i dislike keywords.
11:39:54 <ais523> Underlambda is going to have most of the printable characters in ASCII as keywords
11:40:26 <AnMaster> ais523, have you had similar issues with PCRE too?
11:40:37 <ais523> I haven't actually tried to use it
11:40:39 <fizzie> The (?P<name>...) naming is reasonably common; you can use them in Python regexps, and then refer to them as .group('name') after matching. Perl supports it too for compatibility reasons, although it also supports (?<name>...) and (?'name'...).
11:40:40 <ais523> but I've read the docs
11:40:53 <ais523> and I've used pcregrep
11:41:03 <ais523> maybe the segfault's a bug in the grep program not PCRE though?
11:41:17 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe, but changing a few letters in the regex made it work
11:41:28 <AnMaster> ie removing some part of a lookbehind iirc
11:41:37 <AnMaster> it must have been about a year ago at least
11:41:42 <AnMaster> wonder if I still got it around
11:41:50 <AnMaster> well I would on archived irc logs on cd
11:41:56 <AnMaster> since I talked about it on irc I remember
11:48:40 <AnMaster> /mnt/cdrom/2007-01-24/FreeNode-#freenode-social.log.gz:Dec 07 19:22:37 <AnMaster> pcregrep '(?<!raw)output\("(`?\\\$|`.|%s|[^a-zA-Z\\])*"' *.php <-- I wonder why that regexp crash pcregrep? it isn't that complicated really
11:49:10 <ais523> I wonder if it still does? Does it matter what you pipe into the expression?
11:49:26 <AnMaster> ais523, well I didn't pipe anything see the *.php
11:49:33 <AnMaster> and that php program: no longer have it
11:49:48 <AnMaster> some php based web game I was testing
11:50:18 <AnMaster> ais523, also iirc it only crashed on 64-bit
11:56:22 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't crash on an empty input file now, could depend on input as you said
11:56:37 <ais523> anyway, I'm going for a while
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12:54:33 <AnMaster> I just got an idea for a different way to represent Lisp
12:54:45 <AnMaster> it is truly awful and yet quite cool
12:55:34 <AnMaster> As a directory structure on the file system
12:55:46 <AnMaster> after all Lisp is just a tree written using S-Expressions
12:55:52 <AnMaster> you could use xml or whatever *shudder*
12:56:04 <AnMaster> but using the file system should be quite interesting
12:57:17 <AnMaster> where x 1 and 2 are empty files
12:57:22 <AnMaster> and the other ones are directories
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12:57:45 <fizzie> Ordering of files in a directory is a bit uncertain, though.
12:57:48 <AnMaster> ah wait would need some way to represent the first empty () of lambda
12:58:10 <AnMaster> why I got this idea: editing qmail configs
12:58:40 <AnMaster> ok empty list could be a file called NIL
12:58:55 <fizzie> ^ul (!)(o)(t)(o)(p)(b)(t)~**~*~**~*S
12:58:56 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but.
12:59:40 <fizzie> Or <x,y> = { {x}, {x, y} }; I think that's even more common maybe.
12:59:53 <Slereah_> Well, there's a lot of ways to do it
13:00:09 <Slereah_> All that matters is that the first and second can be differentied
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13:00:29 <AnMaster> all parameters are named parameters
13:00:38 <AnMaster> use extended file attributes for those names
13:00:48 <fizzie> An engineer's solution would've been to prefix an index number there.
13:01:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes but that is so, um, boring
13:01:29 <Slereah_> Engineers use real languages, too
13:01:46 <AnMaster> Slereah_, yeah they don't use the file system for a language indeed
13:02:08 <AnMaster> hm it should be easy to make a python-style LISP
13:02:25 <Slereah_> Plus, engineers are evil, according to my professors
13:02:41 <fizzie> There's at least one SRFI for an indentation-sensitive Scheme syntax.
13:02:47 <Slereah_> Python doesn't use that much indentation
13:03:00 <fizzie> http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-49/srfi-49.html
13:03:02 <AnMaster> also I hate indention sensitive languages
13:03:29 <Slereah_> I find it better than curly brackers and ; everywhere
13:04:51 <ehird> oklopol: the problem is
13:04:58 <ehird> even simple structures get huge
13:04:59 <fizzie> Eh, it's just syntax; after some small period of adjustation it's not like you really have to pay any attention to {};s -- or in Scheme's case, the ()s.
13:05:12 <oklopol> ehird: i'm not saying it's a good thing. it just looks nice.
13:05:17 <ehird> i.e. a 3 line scheme thing becomes 10 lines
13:05:24 <oklopol> i also think nopol looks nice.
13:05:42 <ehird> oklopol: it did until you added : and
13:05:47 <ehird> i preferred the >< fuckery
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13:06:19 <oklopol> i find even the factorial a bit hard to read. and that's a trivial func
13:06:21 <ehird> http://www.fucknorrisfacts.com/
13:06:26 <oklopol> ehird: . and : are awesome.
13:06:34 <ehird> oklopol: < and > are awesomer
13:06:49 <fizzie> What does nopol look like? There's a spec?
13:06:56 <ehird> fizzie: Like this:
13:07:08 <ehird> it has <regular lists>
13:07:18 <ehird> neglists are nested to a negative depth
13:07:28 <ehird> and . and :... I don't know what they do but i twas awesomer when it was just > and <
13:07:33 <ehird> and there is no spec, its an oklopol language
13:07:47 <fizzie> So oklopol is implemented with it?
13:07:56 <oklopol> there's a reference implementation
13:08:12 <ehird> the oklo OS has the low level language as nopol
13:08:15 <ehird> and oklotalk is built on it
13:08:22 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/nopol.txt this is pretty much all there is online.
13:08:44 <oklopol> that maps a function over a list.
13:09:03 <AnMaster> oklopol, where is the function?
13:09:09 <ehird> oklopol: seriously, replace the : and . with <>s
13:09:17 <ehird> you have <nested> and >nested<
13:09:19 <ehird> so make : and . the badly nested ones
13:09:20 <oklopol> it's basically list rewriting with lambdas and negative lists, which means you can map a lambda to the elements of a list
13:09:21 <ehird> >> and << or something
13:09:26 <ehird> it will be amazing
13:09:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, so what exactly does : and . do?
13:09:40 <oklopol> AnMaster: they are for naming.
13:09:48 <AnMaster> oklopol, well how do they work?
13:09:50 <ehird> i love seeing AnMaster randomly pinged.
13:10:15 <oklopol> naming plus err... <. and <: are special
13:10:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, well that doesn't make it possible to understand what exactly do they?
13:10:44 <oklopol> "<.." means "don't evaluate once", i guess it's kinda like `d in unlambda
13:11:01 <oklopol> <. is lambda i think, and <: calls it.
13:11:23 <AnMaster> oklopol, nice. and the "freestanding" : and .?
13:11:25 <oklopol> lambdas are basically tree rewriting plus adding delays so static scoping works.
13:11:34 <oklopol> i'm not sure how that works, but somehow it does.
13:11:59 <oklopol> you can try reading the implementation, but, well, you can't.
13:12:16 <oklopol> it's is written in a very okloesque way.
13:12:20 <ehird> i rewrote your example with just < and >
13:12:23 <ehird> < << < >> < << << > << << << > < << << >>> > < << << > < << << > < << << << << ><>
13:12:33 <ehird> it'd be prettier with neglists ofc
13:12:35 <oklopol> AnMaster: there are no freestanding ones, they are always bundled with a <
13:12:49 <fizzie> That looks like a C++ template right there.
13:12:52 <ehird> oklopol: isn't that wonderful
13:13:07 <oklopol> ehird: but... "." and ":" are my favorite characters in the whole ascii :|
13:13:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, I think your : and . are nicer
13:13:34 <oklopol> AnMaster: <::> is just a name
13:14:30 <AnMaster> oklopol, this language sounds rather close to unlambda?
13:14:32 <oklopol> just by adding characters it would become pretty much just basic LC assuming you don't have <.. in the actual source but let the interpreter supply them as lambdas get evaluated.
13:14:46 <oklopol> no, it has pattern matching and all that
13:15:09 <oklopol> i've implemented ski in it
13:15:28 <oklopol> it's not exactly a feat in a functional language.
13:15:42 <oklopol> it's based on the nopular paradigm
13:16:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, that "ski"? can't find it on the esolang wiki
13:16:12 <fizzie> S, K and I combinators, I guess.
13:16:19 <fizzie> And at least it does nothing in an interesting way.
13:19:33 <Slereah_> functional doesn't mean it's easy to do SKI :o
13:20:13 <oklopol> assuming you just make the combinators
13:21:50 <Slereah_> How would you go about it with recursive functions?
13:27:00 <AnMaster> wikipedia says "In fact, in computability theory it is shown that the μ-recursive functions are precisely the functions that can be computed by Turing machines."
13:27:22 <AnMaster> if SKI is TC then it should be able to do those?
13:27:27 <Slereah_> Well, unless you count combinators and the analytical engine
13:28:38 <Slereah_> recursive functions probably have the worst way of keeping track of the program
13:29:09 <AnMaster> I haven't read more than the intro in the wikipedia article yet
13:29:10 <Slereah_> Well, you can do it with many ways, but there's one that works for arbitrarily large numbers
13:29:25 <Slereah_> Gdel used motherfucking Gdelisation :o
13:30:09 <Slereah_> You turn the sequence of number <a,b,c,d,...> into 2^a * 3^b * 5^c * 7^d * ... * p^z
13:30:58 <Slereah_> A lot of Gdel's paper is a way to actually use that piece of shit with -recursive functions.
13:31:20 <AnMaster> Slereah_, does that encoding offer unique values for every sequence?
13:31:25 <Slereah_> They didn't have Lisp back then, to just say "fuck it, let's just use a pairing function"
13:31:35 <Slereah_> Because a number has just one prime decomposition
13:31:46 <oklopol> Slereah_: "can" is such an ambiguous word.
13:31:57 <AnMaster> yes makes sense. but is kind of hard to use
13:32:30 <Slereah_> Also my keyboard turned QWERTY for no reason
13:32:32 <oklopol> the question is not whether you have a pairing function in the language
13:32:42 <oklopol> it's whether you can implement it from withing the language, somehow.
13:33:20 <oklopol> can you create some kind of a syntactic aid for yourself from within the language.
13:33:35 <ais523> Slereah_: what's your keyboard normally, AVERTY?
13:33:41 <oklopol> naturally you can encode and decode any pair in a tc language, esoness comes from whether that's verbose to do
13:34:05 <fizzie> There's a SICP example (I think) which does lists of integers by using 2^a * 3^b to represent the (a, b) pair.
13:34:05 <ais523> Slereah_: is AZERTY designed to be difficult to type with in French, like QWERTY is difficult to type with in English?
13:34:12 <AnMaster> ais523, does that mean "something that is likely to avert"? ;P
13:34:27 <ais523> I suppose it could do, but that wouldn't make a whole lot of sense
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13:35:54 <Slereah_> But yeah, there's an easier way to do all those functions, though still not that easy.
13:36:01 <Slereah_> You have to define logical functions.
13:36:20 <Slereah_> and, or, not, and "there exist an x inferior to n such that"
13:36:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm I remember there is one using lambdas for it
13:36:33 <Slereah_> Also "the smallest x inferior to n such that"
13:36:42 <fizzie> The lambda one is a very common one.
13:36:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, don't remember one based on primes, but I could have forgot it
13:37:05 <fizzie> It might've been elsewhere.
13:37:24 <fizzie> It generates rather large numbers fast, though.
13:37:58 <fizzie> No, the (a, b) = 2^a*3^b representation for lists of integers.
13:38:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, also how would you get a and b back out of that?
13:38:20 <fizzie> Modulo 3 and logarithm base 2 for a.
13:38:21 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/godel.scm
13:38:29 <fizzie> Er, not modulo three. :p
13:38:30 <Slereah_> fizzie : That's what a godel number is
13:39:02 <Slereah_> You can input a list directly instead of pairs
13:39:22 <AnMaster> Slereah_, "server didn't respond"?
13:39:32 <fizzie> Yes, well, this was just in an example for nonstandard ways of doing cons cells.
13:40:51 <Slereah_> Now all I need to do is my language.
13:41:28 <Slereah_> Although the fixed number of arguments in Scheme is annoying to do it
13:41:39 <fizzie> Anyway, in that scheme (1 2 3) = (1 . (2 . (3 . 0))) = 2^1*3^(2^2*3^(2^3*1)), which is already 7.4*10^12521.
13:41:42 <ehird> scheme has variable arguments Slereah_
13:41:46 <ehird> (define (func . args)
13:41:59 <AnMaster> well those gödel numbers seems like an easy way to make any language with a finite number of bignums pass the "infinite storage" part of tc-ness
13:42:39 <Slereah_> I mean like a function where you could do (f a b c) or (f a b c d) or (f a)
13:42:51 <ehird> (define (func . args)
13:42:54 <ehird> args is a list of all arguments
13:43:43 <ehird> (define (func first-arg . rest-of-args)
13:43:48 <ehird> if you want to mandate at least one arg
13:43:54 <ehird> if you have a list
13:43:59 <ehird> and want to call a func with those args
13:44:33 <fizzie> There's also (lambda x ...) if you want a lambda with variable arity; x will be the list of arguments.
13:44:48 <Slereah_> How do I call the arguments if they're not explicitely named though?
13:45:30 <Slereah_> Do they have a number or something?
13:45:39 <fizzie> You can use list-ref to it.
13:46:10 <fizzie> It would be prettier with a pattern-matching thing, but those are not (R5RS, anyway) standard. Still, everyone has at least one.
13:47:04 <AnMaster> I can never remember which is which if car and cdr
13:47:05 <Slereah_> 2729100455414265779826822625632063613442385101061005941186642454782817725061083467320450990529105718175359388890671487844122981707245012734797343852787385177612304687500000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
13:47:14 <Slereah_> Well, still works. Let's add the 's!
13:47:44 <AnMaster> Slereah_, more space efficient to use ascii encoding though ;)
13:48:34 <ais523> AnMaster: a in Underload is named after car, convolutedly, to be precise it's the opposite of car
13:48:39 <ais523> creates a list whose first element is its argument
13:48:50 <Slereah_> AnMaster : recursive functions cannot handle strings!
13:48:59 <ais523> this would make a lot more sense if A and D were in the lang too, but those are Underlambda/Overload, not Underload
13:49:17 <Slereah_> To try the best of both world.
13:49:29 <Slereah_> Although I'm still not sure how I'm going to do the pi calculus part
13:49:38 <AnMaster> ais523, that doesn't really answer the question
13:49:54 <ais523> car gives you the first element
13:49:55 <fizzie> Also: the HtDP book, and I think some PLT dialect, uses and prefers the names "first" and "rest" for "car" and "cdr".
13:49:57 <ais523> cdr gives you the other elements
13:50:10 <AnMaster> ais523, what does the words stand for now again?
13:50:19 <AnMaster> I mean head or tail would make more sense to me at least
13:50:20 <ais523> content of address register and content of decrement register
13:50:29 <ais523> it's implementation details of a decades-old Lisp implementation
13:50:41 <fizzie> Personally I like how they've kept that part.
13:50:42 <ais523> just everything copied the names from it for some unknown stupid historical reason
13:50:47 <ais523> and now we're stuck with them
13:51:06 <fizzie> It's stupid, but it's more funny-stupid than painful-stupid.
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13:51:20 <fizzie> That CONStructs things; it's at least easy to remember.
13:51:48 <AnMaster> well ok car and cdr are in dictionary order
13:53:46 <fizzie> And actually it seems to be "Contents of the Address/Decrement part of Register number #", not some specific address/decrement registers.
13:54:14 <fizzie> Since they refer to 15-bit parts of the 36-bit word.
13:54:50 <Slereah> I guess the rest is the adress of the pair!
13:56:11 <fizzie> The other 6 bits seem to have been a 3-bit "prefix part" and "tag part" and corresponding CPR/CTR instructions for those.
13:56:34 <ehird> ais523: what would you suggest
13:56:46 <ais523> for what? car and hdr?
13:56:47 <fizzie> But it seems that first/rest names were already in use in 1959 or so; they haven't really caught on.
13:56:51 <ais523> head and tail is what I'm used to
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13:57:40 <fizzie> Wikipedia lists the c[ad]+r compositions as an "advantage" of those names. That's a bit... arguable.
13:59:03 <fizzie> Besides, you could easily create compositions out of first/rest, too. caddr = frrest, cdaar = rffirst, and so on. Very sensible.
14:00:10 <fizzie> (set-frrrrrest! x 'foo)
14:00:43 <Slereah> (pint (- n2 1) (cdr args))))
14:00:51 <Slereah> What's wrong with this projection function?
14:01:29 <fizzie> You want something like (apply pint (cons n args)) if you want to just pass those arguments on.
14:01:44 <fizzie> Or (define (pint n2 args) ... )
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14:02:11 <fizzie> The way it's written, (pint n args) will cause 'pint' be called so that the arguments are wrapped twice into a list.
14:02:48 <Slereah> But it's written (pint n2 . args)
14:03:09 <fizzie> Yes, and when you call it like (pint n args), the 'args' in pint2 will be a single-value list containing args.
14:04:06 <fizzie> I don't see why you need an inner function, though, if you just want to call it with the same arguments the outer one is called with.
14:04:17 <Slereah> Although the projection function is admitedly the most useless
14:04:40 <Slereah> Because I'm stupid and I don't want a loop :(
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14:05:39 <Slereah> Let's try an essential function, although so hard to write!
14:06:06 <fizzie> I mean, what's wrong with (define (p n . args) (if (= 1 n) (car args) (apply p (cons (- n 1) (cdr args))); of course if you do end up doing (define (pint n args) ...) instead, the inner function makes sense since you can then call it with (cdr args) without the apply.
14:06:49 <Slereah> Well, the function ended up as
14:06:50 <Slereah> (pint (- n2 1) (cdr args))))
14:07:35 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers6/math-explained.gif
14:08:40 <fizzie> Although you could just (define (p n . args) (list-ref args (- n 1)) if I'm reading that function right.
14:09:04 <Slereah> Well, it's the projection function
14:09:17 <Slereah> (p n a b c d ...) returns the nth variable
14:09:36 <fizzie> Yes; (list-ref list n) returns the n'th element of the list, although it's zero-based.
14:10:07 <fizzie> (list-ref '(a b c) 1) ==> 'b
14:12:01 <fizzie> Tried to compile jitfunge on OS X, but I get a "no return statement in function returning non-void" error (-Werror) from the C++ system header <tr1/hashtable>. Not nice.
14:12:30 <Slereah> Is there a way to do (f a b c d ...) from a function f and a list of functions a b c d... without doing recursion?
14:13:00 <ais523> Slereah: why would you want to avoid doing recursion?
14:13:08 <ais523> but yes, cons f to the start of the list
14:13:37 <Slereah> Well, to write a shorter program.
14:13:46 <fizzie> Er, I think what was wanted here is (apply f args).
14:13:59 <ais523> I didn't know that one, is it standard Lisp?
14:14:12 <fizzie> If args is the list '(a b c), then (apply f args) will do (f a b c).
14:14:58 <fizzie> Or more accurately, if args is really '(a b c), quoted like that, then (apply f args) will do (f 'a 'b 'c). But I hope the point was clear.
14:19:56 <fizzie> Common lisp seems to have (apply #'foo list) too, except that you need the #' syntax to get a function object, thanks to it being a lisp-2.
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14:22:36 <Slereah> It should be of the form (mu n f), but that means that f should have all its variables filled, except for one.
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14:23:14 <Slereah> I guess I could use a lambda.
14:23:54 <Slereah> But it needs to be there at parsing, not in the function, I think.
14:29:11 <fizzie> Aren't you just going to have µ return a function that takes k arguments and then does whatever it should?
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14:30:34 <Slereah> ( n f) -> returns the smallest number such that (f a, b, c, ... nth argument, ...) is zero
14:30:58 <Slereah> Or zero otherwise, but since there's no general way of seeing if it won't stop, no worries
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14:33:02 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure how you're going to call (f a), (f a b), (f a b c), ... if you just have the call (µ n f).
14:33:31 <Slereah> Well, f is a unary function.
14:33:57 <Slereah> But it's because it's an n-ary function with n-1 values filled.
14:34:17 <Slereah> So it's not actually that will take care of that.
14:34:29 <Slereah> Which means I'll have to do at least some parsing.
14:34:43 <Slereah> Never have I tried parsing in Scheme D:
14:38:07 <fizzie> From what I've read at the "µ-recursive functions" page, the µ operator takes a function and returns a function that takes f's parameters. I can do Scheme, but I'm not quite sure how µ works, so can't comment on that.
14:39:20 <Slereah> Well, as said, y applied to f (x, y, z, ...) returns the smallest y such that f = 0.
14:39:46 <Slereah> But for... decidability reasons, x, z, and all other arguments must have values.
14:40:04 <Slereah> It's just a looping function, really.
14:40:27 <Slereah> The only way for an infinite loop.
14:41:25 <fizzie> So why can't your µ operator return the function which accepts the values for those arguments, and then returns the smallest y? (And really, I'm still not seeing the sense in there; "µy returns the smallest y"; what's the y in µy?
14:41:52 <Slereah> So I'll turn y f(a, y, b, c, ..) into ( 2 (lambda x) (f a x b c ...))
14:42:23 <ais523> fizzie: I think the mu is like the lambda; basically it's a loop setting y to values one at a time until it finds the lowest y at which f evaluates to 0
14:42:30 <fizzie> Ah, so it's the name of the parameter which will be used for searching.
14:43:39 <Slereah> There's actually a way to do a with the rest of the functions, but it's a bounded functions.
14:43:51 <Slereah> It will only search numbers between 0 and n.
14:44:26 <fizzie> Well, you can use a macro to automatically turn an expression like (µ 2 (f a b c d)) into (do-µ 2 (lambda (x) (f a b x c d))) if you want it to be pretty-looking.
14:44:34 <Slereah> Which is why Gdel didn't really use it. He just said "let's just use an unbounded version of that to search, negro"
14:45:19 <Slereah> I'll worry about that when I get to the parsing.
14:49:30 <fizzie> If you do some parsing, you can obviously do whatever you want; I thought you were aiming for something that sort-of works in a Scheme repl.
14:51:40 <Slereah> Well, it's supposed to be its own language.
14:51:54 <Slereah> I mostly do it as an exercize for Limp later on.
14:52:12 <Slereah> Limp's going to be way uglier, for it's full of side effects D:
15:00:25 <fizzie> The topic's still a bit silly.
15:00:27 <fizzie> ^ul (*S!)(!)(*~:^):(t)~:(o)~:(b)~:(t)~(p)(o)(a~a*~a*~*^):^
15:00:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | dunno about ultra efficient :).
15:00:42 <fizzie> That's more appropriate.
15:00:55 <optbot> Slereah: It's compiled into Brainfuck.
15:01:08 <fizzie> Ha, ha! I can't be destroyed, I'm compiled into Brainfuck!
15:01:23 <ais523> fizzie: that's quite an Underload program, why did you write it like that?
15:02:15 <ais523> is it a stack trick to print it one at a time?
15:03:19 <fizzie> There's that concatenation program -- (*~:^) -- that's duplicated between each letter, and the loopy part -- (a~a*~a*~*^) -- just digs it up and executes; except that sneakily under the (!) there's a print-out thing instead of the regular concatenation.
15:04:50 <fizzie> You want "ni" instead of "(ni)" there maybe? If it's a number, anyway.
15:05:21 <ais523> the quoting is one of the things that always confuses me with lispalikes
15:05:46 <Slereah> Now for the recursion function...
15:05:48 <fizzie> I'm also not quite sure what the "n" parameter is for, since it's not used anywhere; and the "mui" is called with two arguments, yet accepts only one.
15:06:24 <Slereah> n should disappear at parsing.
15:07:12 <fizzie> That looks like it'd loop.
15:07:28 <fizzie> Well, except that the (mui (s ni) f) call has the f still.
15:07:43 <Slereah> It loops until (f n) is zero
15:08:30 <Slereah> It is some sort of problem in halting.
15:09:13 <Slereah> Of course, I'll see about that when I test it.
15:09:24 <fizzie> I usually just use the named-let for that sort of functions: (define (mu f) (let loop ((n 0)) (if (= 0 (f n)) n (loop (s n))))) -- but that's of course a matter of style.
15:10:00 <Slereah> I figured the original functional language should just have function calls :D
15:11:15 <fizzie> Well, it *is* a function call; (let loop ((n 0)) ... ) is mostly syntactic sugar for (letrec ((loop (lambda (n) ... ))) (loop 0)).
15:11:40 <Slereah> Syntactic sugar gives me diabeetus.
15:13:31 <Slereah> (rec f g n x y z ...) -> h(0,x,y,z,...) = f(x,y,z, ...), h(n+1,x,y,z,...) = g(n,h(n+1,x,y,z,...),x,y,z,...)
15:13:34 <fizzie> Or ((lambda (x n) (x x n)) (lambda (loop n) ...) 0), for that matter. Although there should be a less messy way of expanding letrec.
15:16:17 <Slereah> (With that, I should be able to do functions lambda style - without a single function definition
15:19:51 <Slereah> (define (rec f g n . args) (if (= 0 n) (apply f args)
15:19:51 <Slereah> (g (- n 1) (rec f g (- n 1) args) args)))
15:20:21 <Slereah> Wait, I've got all functions
15:23:41 <Slereah> (rec f g (- n 1) args) does not work
15:23:52 <fizzie> Well, it's the same problem as earlier.
15:24:06 <fizzie> Inside rec, that causes args to become (args).
15:25:07 <fizzie> (apply rec (append (list f g (- n 1)) args)) is one solution.
15:25:18 <fizzie> There are others, of course.
15:26:12 <Slereah> I need to do it for g too now.
15:27:45 <fizzie> I probably would've written the thing so that (rec f g) returns a (lambda (n . args) ...) doing the (if (= 0 n) ...) thing; for some reason it feels nicer for me if (rec f g) would just return a recursive function that could be separately called.
15:28:49 <fizzie> Oh, and (apply rec `(,f ,g ,(- n 1) ,@args)) is arguably prettier than the more explicit (apply rec (append (list f g (- n 1)) args).
15:29:12 <fizzie> It's also arguably uglier, thanks to the quasiquote notation.
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16:54:28 <AquaLoqua> lets see, oklopol, don't suppose you could answer a quickie for me
16:55:21 <ais523> hi AquaLoqua, like the nick
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16:55:36 <oklopol> lol i read that as "AnMaster" :)
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16:56:13 <AquaLoqua> :P Well, picture this quickly. I have a language (SCPL), it's one instruction and it is A:B,C meaning
16:56:14 <fizzie> Heh, I also read that as "AnMaster".
16:56:53 <oklopol> i think i just read the capital A.
16:57:01 <AquaLoqua> if the variable at A>0 then B+=C, now the thing is, there is only 1 word worth of vars, is it possible to create code to dynamicalyl address cars
16:57:02 -!- ais523 has changed nick to Ais523.
16:57:28 <AnMaster> oh well I have to use my own frying pan
16:57:33 <Ais523> AquaLoqua: are you accessing the variables literally? or via constants?
16:57:55 * AnMaster hits Ais523 with a frying pan ====\____/
16:57:58 <Ais523> oklopol: please don't insult me like that, I take it personally
16:58:00 <oklopol> i'm not entirely sure i get that.
16:58:06 <AquaLoqua> via constants, so, for example 0x0000 0xFFFD 0x1234 is a command
16:58:46 <Ais523> AquaLoqua: if a variable's address is hard-coded in the command, like it seems to be, your only method of dynamic addressing is a huge switch statement, effectively
16:58:57 <oklopol> are they *actual* constants, is there a separate data segment and a text segment?
16:58:59 <Ais523> AnMaster: AquaLoqua = Hiato
16:59:13 <Ais523> oklopol: ah, good point
16:59:41 <AquaLoqua> yeah, that's what I thought ais523, but considering you have only 65535 vars, you acn't possible write a huge else if block as that would take them all up
16:59:44 <Ais523> if the code's self-modifying you can do it that way; I have a computer book from before TTL was invented, people used core stores as memory, and pointers were done by selfmodifying code
17:00:09 -!- Ais523 has changed nick to Ais458.
17:00:31 <Ais458> AnMaster: please, again? I don't like religious insults
17:00:33 <fizzie> ais seems to be ASCII-based.
17:00:47 -!- Ais458 has changed nick to ais458.
17:00:52 <AquaLoqua> oklopol: not sure what you mean, but probably actual data, the whole thing prog is stored in the mem (not the var mem though)
17:00:52 -!- comex has changed nick to biden.
17:00:55 <oklopol> ais458: why don't you like them?
17:00:59 -!- ais458 has changed nick to ais523.
17:01:16 <AnMaster> ais458, hm ok... what about: "commercial you"?
17:01:20 <ais523> oklopol: it's just a line that I don't like people to cross, I'm not even religious but like to keep my options open
17:01:39 <Slereah> (define (rec f g n . args) (if (= 0 n) (apply f args)
17:01:41 <ais523> and I don't like random damning, because if it does work it's one of the worst things you can do to someone
17:01:42 <Slereah> (apply (g append(list( (- n 1) (apply (rec (append (list f g (- n 1))args)))) args)))))
17:01:45 <Slereah> Internet, what is wrong with this?
17:01:46 <AnMaster> ais523, in Sweden religious results are seen as less offensive than sexual ones. Maybe not the same in UK?
17:02:04 * AquaLoqua slaps ais523 around a bit with a large trout
17:02:05 <ais523> AnMaster: in general it is the same, my preferences are different though
17:02:17 <ehird> ais523: JESUS LOVES YOU
17:02:19 <fizzie> (apply (g append(...))) at least doesn't make sense; probably should be (apply g (append (list ...)))
17:02:21 <ais523> troutslapping is OK, although mild, although potentially painful in RL
17:02:30 <AnMaster> ais523 also um get some holy water to uncurse it
17:02:45 <ais523> AnMaster: is that a Nethack reference?
17:02:59 -!- biden has changed nick to obama.
17:03:16 -!- AquaLoqua has changed nick to McCain.
17:03:33 <McCain> it was crying out for that
17:03:33 -!- obama has changed nick to Guest64551.
17:03:45 -!- McCain has changed nick to AquaLoqua.
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17:04:02 <oklopol> ais523: good thing i did take it back then. if it had been anyone else i'd just have assumed they were kidding.
17:04:18 <fizzie> Also "list( (- n 1) ..." has (- n 1) in the function-call position, so it will try to evaluate (- n 1) as a function; again, should be something like (list (- n 1) (apply ...)).
17:04:28 <AnMaster> ais523, well if you are happier I take it back
17:04:45 <AnMaster> you think something actually happened there?
17:05:03 -!- ehird has changed nick to ronpaul.
17:05:11 <ais523> (put it this way, I'm the sort of person who doesn't believe in superstitions but follows a random superstition because I felt I wasn't superstitious enough, and know it's safe because I've verified by experiment that it's unlikely to make much of a difference)
17:05:19 <AnMaster> ais523, tell him that! if he is ignoring me
17:05:32 <Slereah> That args business confuses me :(((
17:05:34 <ronpaul> ais523: which superstition? XD
17:05:43 <ais523> ronpaul: AnMaster asks if you're ignoring him
17:05:48 <ais523> ronpaul: saluting magpies
17:05:58 <ais523> it's a safe superstition because it clearly makes no difference whatsoever
17:06:02 <AnMaster> ais523, tell him then what happened
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17:06:16 <AnMaster> I guess it was subconscious I bet
17:06:19 <fizzie> I think it was more "AnMaster wants you to know that he predicted Ron Paul's imminent appearance."
17:06:20 <ronpaul> pascal's wager is pretty much invalid
17:06:29 <ronpaul> it fails to account for the fact that there are millions of religions.
17:06:29 -!- jix has joined.
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17:06:35 <ais523> [17:03] * AnMaster waits for Ron Paul | [17:05] *** ehird is now known as ronpaul. | [17:05] <AnMaster> ehird did what I said | [17:05] <AnMaster> ais523, tell him that! if he is ignoring me
17:06:35 <ronpaul> and that each of them have an equal chance.
17:06:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, and I suspected that ehird would do it
17:06:53 <ronpaul> ais523: considering AnMaster had no idea who ron paul is until i mentioned him a few days ago...
17:06:55 <ronpaul> <NickServ> Nick RonPaul is already registered to RonPaul.
17:06:58 -!- jix has joined.
17:07:13 -!- ronpaul has changed nick to ehird.
17:07:14 <ais523> ronpaul: also for the possibility of an antireligion which does horrible things to people who believe in god, and an XKCD religion which does horrible things to people who make stupid mathematical bets
17:07:17 -!- biden has changed nick to comex.
17:07:38 <Slereah> Isn't there just an easy way to transform a lis into a bunch of individual arguments?
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17:07:48 <oklopol> well oral pun is clearly the best
17:08:37 <fizzie> A "Nu" is a creature in Chrono Trigger, I seem to remember.
17:08:40 <ehird> ais523: a god who rewards people who think logically and therefore are atheists is both awesome and useless.
17:08:48 <Slereah> It would be pretty awesome
17:08:51 <ehird> and awesome, useless things are the best class of things.
17:09:31 <oklopol> i'm fairly superstitious when it comes to luck.
17:09:32 <AquaLoqua> hrmm, ehird logical thinking==atheism?
17:10:05 <oklopol> logical thinking => atheism, i think.
17:10:29 <ais523> logical thinking >= atheism?
17:10:30 <ehird> oklopol: that was what i said, yeah
17:10:55 <ehird> Note that I'm not promoting logical thinking as a be-all end-all.
17:10:55 <oklopol> if someone confuses implication and equivalence once more i'm going to smack this world with a large trout.
17:10:55 <ais523> (/me remembers Arthur C Clarke's characterisation that in future there would be only two religions, one which believed in <= 1 god and one which believed in >= 1 god)
17:11:14 * AquaLoqua slaps AquaLoqua around a bit with a large trout
17:11:20 <fizzie> logical thinking % atheism == 0?
17:11:38 <ais523> fizzie: wouldn't that imply that either logical thinking >= atheism or logical thinking == 0?
17:11:46 <ehird> logical thinking (crazy) logical thinking = your mom
17:11:50 <AquaLoqua> hrmm, but then, ais423, there is space for a third, a comprimise god=1, only 1
17:12:26 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, well, at least |logical thinking| >= |atheism| then. % is a bit vague with that.
17:13:30 <AquaLoqua> yes, and M(atheism){Logical thinking}
17:15:24 <fizzie> There is some sort of bad pun waiting in the "a is congruent to b modulo x" reading of "a % x = b" plus the "corresponding in character or kind" meaning of congruent plus whatever was above, but I can't make it work.
17:15:31 <oklopol> we actually considered registering an official religion with vjn at some point¨
17:15:51 <oklopol> but in the end realized it might bring publicity, which we really didn't want.
17:16:12 <oklopol> a random group i belong to.
17:16:16 <fizzie> A friend in high school started a small few-person religion, but all I can remember about it was that it involved fish somehow.
17:16:54 <oklopol> fizzie: official one? well, i'm assuming there is such a thing as an official religion, i don't actually know
17:17:16 <oklopol> the plan was abandoned before getting into details
17:17:45 <fizzie> oklopol: Not official. But I think there is indeed some register of them.
17:18:58 <oklopol> well unless it's official, it's not officially fun.
17:19:09 <oklopol> who hasn't made unofficial religions as kids
17:19:17 <oklopol> well i guess religious people may not have.
17:19:26 <fizzie> Yes, it's in the "uskonnonvapauslaki", vaguely translated "law of freedom of religion".
17:19:32 <fizzie> (At least in Finland, that is.)
17:19:45 <fizzie> You need at least 20 people for it.
17:19:58 <fizzie> That's actually pretty few.
17:20:06 <fizzie> http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2003/20030453 for the Finnish-speaking people; chapter 2.
17:20:31 <oklopol> if it's 20, then i think we need to reconsider this.
17:20:31 <oklopol> i thought it was in thousands.
17:20:35 <ais523> does that include Flying Spaghetti Monsterism?
17:20:40 <oklopol> that may have been a bit silly of me.
17:20:41 <fizzie> And it's not actually a "official religion", it's a "officially registered religious community".
17:21:26 <fizzie> (And if there are Swedish-speaking people who are unexplicably interested about Finnish legislation, the Swedish version is at http://www.finlex.fi/sv/laki/ajantasa/2003/20030453 also.)
17:21:33 <oklopol> right. it's only cool if it's as official as christianity.
17:22:20 <oklopol> well, christianity is still somewhat in the law, so maybe not *that* official.
17:22:32 <fizzie> Yes; that would be very difficult.
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17:28:01 <fizzie> They will also only accept communities that have as their stated purpose [very freely paraphrasing] "to arrange and support activities that are based on a religious creed, writings considered holy, or other specific well-established principles that are considered holy".
17:29:29 <oklopol> might be useful to know whether we would actually have to lie to them that we believe in some kinda holy thing.
17:29:29 <oklopol> or whether we could do it, you know, bureaucrat to bureaucrat
17:29:34 <oklopol> i have no idea how that's spelt.
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17:30:15 <ais523> oklopol: you spelt it corrrectly
17:30:36 <buud> ais523: Because I could not stop for Death, He kindly stopped for me; The cube had food and maybe ammo. And immortality.
17:30:40 <oklopol> yeah i've just never seen it written
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17:30:54 <fizzie> oklopol: Additionally, if you manage to get at least three members of your religious community to the same school, they are entitled to get religious teaching for that religion there.
17:31:00 <ais523> oklopol: it's a hard word to get right first time...
17:31:09 <oklopol> fizzie: does that apply to universities?
17:31:21 <oklopol> 4 members of vjn go to it.
17:31:41 <fizzie> oklopol: Just "perusopetus", the obligatory thing. I don't think most universities have very much religious courses anyway.
17:32:09 <fizzie> Oh, and high school too.
17:33:51 <fizzie> Also you would have had to convince your parents to demand that, it seems.
17:34:37 <oklopol> that might've been a problem, i have pretty normal parents.
17:36:13 <fizzie> It's funny how people hyperlink random things in Wikipedia. This one paragraph has the words "blue", "green" and "pink" linked to the corresponding colours.
17:36:27 <fizzie> Just in case the reader would suddenly start to wonder about "blue".
17:36:30 <ais523> overlinking used to be even worse
17:36:42 <ais523> there's a warning somewhere to tell people not to link every word in an article
17:36:54 <ais523> although I haven't seen it used much recently
17:37:21 <oklopol> yes yes, i thought it was a technical term or smth.
17:41:19 <fizzie> Also in the same article: the words "sword", "magical", "war", all to the generic entries.
17:41:31 <fizzie> "Hmm, I wonder what this word 'war' means? Thankfully, there's a link."
17:41:41 <ehird> fizzie: what about [[link]]
17:41:50 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=link
17:41:52 <ehird> "Hmm, I wonder what this is? It's blue."
17:42:00 <ehird> "What should I do with it? Does it mean something?"
17:42:13 <ais523> [[blue]]. [[the weather in london|red]].
17:42:20 <ais523> unfortunately that doesn't work too well for other colours.
17:42:48 <fizzie> That's not there. A lot of "rare" words -- "broadsword", "condiment", "apocalyptic", "shell", "general", "court"...
17:42:59 <ehird> london rain is blood
17:44:20 <GregorR> They could set up a JavaScript onclick event so you can click on any word to go to its article :P
17:44:36 <GregorR> That way they wouldn't be links (technically)!
17:44:58 <ais523> GregorR: that would need an admin
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17:45:47 <ais523> in practice it would need an admin and a consensus to implement, or it'd be reverted
17:46:00 <ehird> just ban and deadmin every other admin.
17:46:11 <ais523> admins can't desysop each other, that needs a steward
17:46:22 <ehird> become a steward first then
17:46:38 <ais523> nah, that requires huge elections and the ability to speak multiple languages
17:46:42 <ais523> as well as telling the WMF who you are
17:46:55 <ehird> the ability to spaek multiple languages?
17:47:09 <ais523> ehird: stewards mostly handle crosswiki stuff
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17:47:22 <ehird> ais523: make an underload wiki, then
17:47:32 <fizzie> Can you, in fact, delete the main page now? There's that "wikipedia:don't delete the main page" page, and during those events it was obviously possible, but is it possible still?
17:47:41 <ehird> fizzie: I believe so.
17:47:45 <ehird> ais523: by which I mean an underload wikipedia
17:47:53 <ais523> fizzie: no, there's a custom extension running on Wikimedia specifically to stop people doing that
17:48:10 <ais523> the devs implemented it to stop people blocking it in much hackier and more complex ways
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17:48:24 <ais523> nonetheless, it is actually possible to delete the main page anyway, but I won't tell you how
17:50:06 <ehird> i want to knowwwwwwwww
17:50:12 <ehird> ais523: deleting the templates on it?
17:50:28 <fizzie> Now *there's* a person who I especially wouldn't tell it. :p
17:52:28 <ehird> fizzie: Who would make me an admin?
17:53:46 <ais523> ehird: I remember you telling me that you thought you could become an admin quite easily...
18:06:18 <ais523> GregorR: why did you suddenly come up with a mudkips meme for no obvious reason?
18:06:28 <ehird> ais523: A better question is why not.
18:06:46 <ais523> ehird: something must have prompted it...
18:15:26 <oklopol> ehird: just ban and deadmin every other admin. <<< lol @ deadmin.
18:17:23 <oklopol> mainly because i first thought it was from dead + admin
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18:47:14 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 9x may actually BSOD from anything.
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18:48:19 <ais523> AnMaster: XP BSODs if you attempt to debug graphical DOS programs under the DJGPP port of gdb in my experience, possibly to do with the video driver
18:48:27 <ais523> that presumably doesn't come up for most people, though
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19:01:46 * ehird imagines a party for leap-seconds
19:01:51 <ehird> "3..2..1..YAAAAAAAAit's over"
19:09:48 <GregorR> Do people have leap-year parties ...?
19:10:38 <ais523> they have new-year parties
19:10:57 <ais523> this year's new-year party will be especially exciting as there'll be a leap-second party just before it
19:11:01 <ais523> 1 second earlier, to be precise
19:11:18 <GregorR> Yes, THAT'S the real excitement :P
19:11:39 <ais523> I've never knowingly lived through a leap second, and want to
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19:29:42 <ehird> ais523: we can have a party online
19:29:45 <ehird> get freenode to do it
19:29:52 <ehird> then -m for the leap second
19:29:54 <ehird> and +m right after
19:29:59 <ehird> you haev to celebrate quickly.
19:30:00 <ais523> I won't be online at 23:59:60...
19:30:25 <ehird> Well, everyone else can do it
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19:31:22 <fizzie> It's, what, 02 here when they actually add the leap second? I can't be certain I'll be present either.
19:39:13 <fizzie> I'm not sure I've read this piece of Wikipedia earlier, about the 64-bit time_t: "In the negative direction, this goes back more than twenty times the age of the universe, and so suffices. In the positive direction, whether the approximately 293 billion representable years is truly sufficient depends on the ultimate fate of the universe, but it is certainly adequate for most practical purposes."
19:39:39 <fizzie> I'm sure there have been debates about that being too frivolous for an encyclopedia article.
19:39:53 <fizzie> The "age of the universe" and "ultimate fate of the universe" are links.
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20:35:04 <AnMaster> or can the starting point be something else?
20:35:16 <AnMaster> say, since start of interpreter
20:35:43 <Deewiant> err what? what starting point?
20:35:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that HRTI internally measures
20:36:13 <Deewiant> what starting point? how is it anywhere evident where HRTI started from?
20:36:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because it doesn't say how should HRTI handle the case of the system change changes
20:36:41 <AnMaster> or should the time returned be affected?
20:36:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and what would you prefer?
20:37:01 <Deewiant> unaffected of course, it's a timer not a clock
20:37:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and is that the case for CCBI?
20:37:38 <Deewiant> might be on windows, probably not on posix
20:37:48 <Deewiant> since I guess gettimeofday() or whatever is the best option
20:38:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Well cfunge is optionally moving away from getttimeofday() since it is deprecated in POSIX.1-2008. Cfunge will still use it as a fallback if clock_gettime() isn't found
20:38:35 <AnMaster> also clock_gettime() is nanoseconds
20:38:57 <Deewiant> I use whatever tango provides, I don't know what it uses
20:39:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, my system provide nanosecond granularity btw :)
20:39:57 <AnMaster> what a pitty HRTI can't express that
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21:20:11 <AnMaster> I made some large changes, I got no idea if it still works on OS X
21:20:27 <AnMaster> so if you please could test last cfunge on there? :)
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21:23:04 <AnMaster> ais523, an issue: on Linux you need to link librt to get clock_gettime()
21:23:21 <AnMaster> so a new dependecy for cfunge if and only if clock_gettime() is supported
21:23:28 <ais523> that's handled transparently somewhere in ick, I forget where, probably the bottom of perpet.c
21:23:32 <ais523> I check for it in configure
21:23:49 <AnMaster> ais523, well issue is cfunge these days set lots of important defines in cmake
21:24:03 <ais523> so presumably I can reuse the configure results when I get round to porting cfunge to the build system I use
21:24:05 <AnMaster> CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/flags.make:C_DEFINES = -DDISABLE_GC -DUSE64 -DCONCURRENT_FUNGE -DFORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -D_POSIX_C_SOURCE=200112L -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=600 -D_XOPEN_SOURCE_EXTENDED -DHAVE_acosl -DHAVE_asinl -DHAVE_atanl -DHAVE_cosl -DHAVE_powl -DHAVE_roundl -DHAVE_sinl -DHAVE_sqrtl -DHAVE_tanl -DGC_DEBUG -DDEBUG -DHAVE_clock_gettime
21:24:27 <AnMaster> ais523, however on freebsd there is no librt
21:24:28 <ais523> most of those can be caught by autoconf easily enough
21:24:39 <AnMaster> clock_gettime() is in libc there
21:24:49 <ais523> jumping from library to library is a pain
21:24:56 <AnMaster> ais523, I got a working check for it in my cmakefile
21:25:03 <ais523> on ick I /think/ I handle that by not using clock_gettime if it isn't in librt
21:25:21 <AnMaster> ais523, well cfunge tries to handle it everywhere
21:25:59 <AnMaster> ais523, my cmake checks for this correctly
21:26:13 <ais523> the problem is ick needs to use the commandline at runtime
21:26:18 <ais523> it wouldn't be so bad the other way round
21:26:27 <AnMaster> ais523, well you have to solve it
21:26:36 <AnMaster> and cfunge may need librt on certain platforms
21:26:55 <AnMaster> ais523, well cfunge falls back on other functions if you lack those
21:27:03 <ais523> I suppose I could check twice for clock_gettime
21:27:05 <AnMaster> ais523, also librt.so brings in libpthread.so here
21:27:09 <ais523> once without librt, once with
21:27:20 <ais523> and that doesn't matter, the existence of a shared object is irrelevant if it's never used
21:27:54 <AnMaster> anyway if -DHAVE_clock_gettime isn't there then cfunge will use gettimeofday()
21:28:08 <AnMaster> ais523, you want to check for those *l math functions too btw
21:28:21 <AnMaster> reason: cfunge falls back on double versions otherwise
21:28:30 <AnMaster> which is bad in FIXP and a few other places
21:28:56 <AnMaster> ais523, I have been working a lot recently on making the build system detect stuff better
21:29:20 <fizzie> I'll test it tomorrow maybe.
21:29:27 <ais523> AnMaster: so have I...
21:29:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, you will want a clean build, reusing old configure cache could break stuff
21:30:30 <AnMaster> ais523, well iirc autoconf got some "search library" thingy
21:30:43 <AnMaster> that looks for one functions in no extra libraries and then each of the listed ones
21:30:45 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I'll have to check how well it goes
21:32:01 <AnMaster> ais523, also I'm planning to introduce an ability to disable certain fingerprints at compile time, this would work as adding some sort of %depends HAVE_FOO then the fingerprint stuff would need that define to be compiled
21:32:13 <AnMaster> since I use wildcards in cmake
21:32:36 <AnMaster> maybe the whole file in an ifdef and compile it, so if not defined it will be an empty file?
21:32:49 <AnMaster> ais523, you think I want to list every file?
21:33:04 <AnMaster> FILE(GLOB CFUNGE_SOURCES RELATIVE ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR}
21:33:09 <ais523> although with automake I only list them 3 times rather than about 20
21:34:02 <AnMaster> ais523, no way I'm going to want to add yet another one every time I add a fingerprint
21:34:12 <ais523> it's automatable, and pretty easy
21:34:18 <ais523> after all, how hard is adding one line to a text file?
21:34:37 <ais523> (autodepends are nice, though, I used to maintain dependencies manually too)
21:34:38 <AnMaster> ais523, more than I want. But I guess I could write a script to auto generate the list
21:34:52 <AnMaster> ais523, oh that I don't need to bother about at all. Cmake handles it
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21:35:33 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I may use other stuff from librt at some point
21:35:41 <AnMaster> and I don't know what ones use threads on linux
21:35:52 <AnMaster> if you happen to know so I can avoid them?
21:36:10 <ais523> I don't mind if things use threads as long as they don't leave me with two copies of my program
21:36:28 <ais523> and really, that seems unlikely if they're written properly, it would be a bug to not return exactly once from most of the stuff in there
21:36:32 <AnMaster> ais523, if I build out of tree for ick, how would I build cfunge for it?
21:36:48 <ais523> I'll make it work out of tree too, I think
21:36:54 <ais523> especially as you're meant to work out of tree
21:36:57 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc AIO is implemented using threads on linux
21:37:07 <AnMaster> on freebsd it is actually in kernel
21:37:13 <ais523> presumably the script in question would run in the build tree rather than the source tree
21:37:26 <ais523> AnMaster: that doesn't matter, as they aren't returning, the existence of the threads is not a problem
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21:38:40 <AnMaster> ais523, also the -F bug still isn't fixed?
21:38:47 <AnMaster> and darcs says no new revisions to pull
21:39:21 <AnMaster> -- Looking for clock_gettime - not found
21:39:21 <AnMaster> -- Looking for clock_gettime in rt
21:39:21 <AnMaster> -- Looking for clock_gettime in rt - found
21:39:52 <AnMaster> ais523, so I look in libc first
21:40:03 <ais523> yes, libc first is right
21:40:13 <AnMaster> oh another nice thing, on x86 and x86_64 linux the real clock_gettime() is actually in a vdso
21:40:15 <ais523> and -F is really rickety, I should tear that bit out and redo it sometime
21:40:37 <AnMaster> those are kernel memory mapped as a DSO into the process address space
21:40:55 <AnMaster> ais523, " -F :unsupported on computers without sh or bash"
21:41:18 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, the regression in Autoconf?
21:41:23 <ais523> maybe I should send that one upstream
21:41:31 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe you should push yes
21:41:34 <ais523> or just get the source from the old Autoconf and use that
21:41:46 <AnMaster> ais523, oh it was autoconf bug?
21:41:48 <ais523> AnMaster: I mean, tell the Autoconf people they're causing a bug in my program
21:42:00 <ais523> it's an autoconf regression, they deprecated something that they probably shouldn't have
21:42:06 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes you should file a bug
21:42:07 <ais523> and it's returning the wrong result by default
21:42:18 <AnMaster> ais523, what thing did they deprecate?
21:42:25 <ais523> the thing that detects if #! works
21:42:34 <ais523> on the basis that it always does nowadays
21:43:01 <ais523> except, they defaulted the test to "doesn't" rather than "does"
21:43:05 <ais523> when turning the test off
21:43:11 <ais523> if I've figured out what's going on correctly
21:44:08 <AnMaster> ais523, also is there any platform where #! doesn't work?
21:44:09 <ais523> I should make sure it's their bug first before reporting it, though
21:44:27 <ais523> AnMaster: DOS without bash/sh, but then autoconf would never run in the first place
21:44:55 <ais523> but that's why it's tested, I have a precalculated autoconf results header for DOS
21:44:59 <AnMaster> ais523, also. no one but you use DOS these days. Sorry to say it
21:45:17 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know, FreeDOS is relatively popular for some things
21:45:46 <ais523> so, why wouldn't someone write a BIOS flasher in INTERCAL?
21:46:00 <AnMaster> I'm not even going to answer that one
21:46:08 <ais523> I don't see why I should artifically limit what INTERCAL can be used for...
21:46:15 <AnMaster> heck I wouldn't dare flash my BIOS
21:46:32 <ais523> I wouldn't dare flash it with anything else, come to that
21:46:37 <ab5tract> it would be a malicious flasher, most certainly
21:47:06 <AnMaster> using a floppy image the computer manufacture provided
21:47:14 <AnMaster> and only because the system had issues
21:47:27 <ais523> well, they still should have written the flasher in INTERCAL
21:47:33 <ais523> maybe they did, did you look at the source?
21:47:37 <AnMaster> ais523, sure go tell Dell that
21:47:50 <ais523> so's this one, as it happens
21:48:12 <AnMaster> got a "designed for windows 98" sticker
21:48:24 <fizzie> I've flashed a couple of BIOSes because of "gets completely confused when seeing a hard drive this big" issues. I don't think any of the flashers have been written in INTERCAL, but who knows.
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21:48:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, I flashed the dell one because it kept loosing time
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21:49:21 <AnMaster> hwclock randomly resetting when running non-windows 98
21:51:03 <fizzie> It looks pretty much like the sysV thing.
21:51:19 <fizzie> Which is also in POSIX.
21:51:42 <fizzie> I'm sure there are all kinds of fancities, though.
21:53:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, what are the name of those functions though=
21:54:20 <fizzie> msgsnd/msgrcv is the basic pair.
22:01:21 <AnMaster> System V message queues (msgget(2), msgsnd(2), msgrcv(2), etc.) are an older API for exchanging messages between processes. POSIX message queues provide a
22:01:21 <AnMaster> better designed interface than System V message queues; on the other hand POSIX message queues are less widely available (especially on older systems) than
22:08:14 <ehird> Who here is cryptographically-knowledgable?
22:08:50 -!- oerjan has quit ("Reboot").
22:09:07 <ehird> fizzie: You must be, surely.
22:09:11 <ehird> I know this with my eyes.
22:09:34 <AnMaster> well since ehird is ignoring me it is no point anyway
22:09:44 <ehird> fizzie: Excellent.
22:10:20 <fizzie> I also will not be here for very many minutes; just a moment more.
22:10:42 <ehird> Now, say I want a user to be able to login with a password to a server, _but_ the server can never see the plaintext password. This points me to doing the hashing client-side, but then any attacker with the database can just put the hash in from the database and log in, thus defeating the whole point of hashing.
22:11:02 <ehird> My query is just whether I can prove to the server that the user knows the password without the server seeing the password and without that flaw.
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22:13:02 <ehird> oerjan: Do you know cryptography.
22:13:27 <fizzie> It's... nontrivial to prove knowledge of something if the server doesn't know it either. But you can of course use a hash of the original password, and then do some garden-variety challenge-response-style authentication if the server has the hash also.
22:14:03 <ehird> fizzie: The server has the hash and the client has the plaintext.
22:14:17 <ehird> But hashing on the client side allows you just to rip the password hash from the database and get it to send it off.
22:14:18 <oerjan> not much, just the basic RSA algorithm we learned in number theory class
22:14:20 <oklopol> the server can maybe do different kind of hashings of the hash
22:15:02 <oklopol> if uses a hash function on the hash with seed S, giving S to the user, then asks the user what the second-order hash is with that seed
22:15:05 <oerjan> well i may have read about other things, but probably vague
22:15:17 <ehird> oklopol: just hash the stolen hash :p
22:15:34 <ehird> see, it's easy if the server does all the hashing, but that involves revealing the pass to the server
22:16:02 <oklopol> what stolen hash, what would be stolen exactly?
22:16:09 <fizzie> HMAC just does message-authentication with shared-secret.
22:16:20 <ehird> oklopol: Let's say i'm an evil hax0r and I got a hold of the user database.
22:16:30 <ehird> In a regular system this is useless, all I can give to the server is a plaintext which it hashes to check.
22:16:40 <ehird> If the CLIENT does the hashing before sending it off, I can just make it send off the stolen hash.
22:16:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah he wants a hash on the server
22:16:47 <fizzie> Hmn. So you'd need the client to be able to prove that he knows something that can be hashed to some specific string, without revealing it to the server.
22:17:04 <ehird> You can do this with GPG.
22:17:05 <AnMaster> ehird, just use an ssl connection
22:17:07 <ehird> Put the public key on the server,
22:17:08 <oklopol> ehird: in my solution the hash never moves anywhere.
22:17:10 <ehird> and get the client to sign a nonce
22:17:24 <ehird> But I don't know how I'd implement that if the key is just the password :-P
22:17:26 <oklopol> proposed solution, i haven't exactly given this sort of issues much thought.
22:18:32 <ehird> Perhaps I should ask the GPG peeps how it works.
22:18:32 <oklopol> right, okay, yeah you mean the thief can already have the hash of the original password
22:18:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm HMAC with a hash on the server?
22:18:47 <oklopol> that's not part of the problem description.
22:19:30 <fizzie> ehird: You can negotiate a plain old secure channel, and use that to transfer some secret key that the server then hashes and compares to the stored thing.
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22:19:46 <ehird> fizzie: The point is, I don't want people to have to trust me.
22:19:51 <ehird> The server should never see the plaintext password.
22:20:13 <ehird> What I need is a pair of functions:
22:20:14 <AnMaster> ehird, how would you tell the server the original hash then?
22:20:14 <fizzie> I'm not seeing what's the point in that, since they're going to have to trust you anyway to do anything with the password.
22:20:26 <ehird> The point is, it all happens client-side.
22:20:31 <ehird> The password is never revealed to the server.
22:20:33 <oklopol> assuming all you can do is hash a string and send a string, i'm pretty sure it's impossible.
22:20:42 <ehird> i need these functions to do it
22:21:00 <ehird> with the constraint that the result of encrypt(a,key) cannot reveal key
22:21:07 <oerjan> ehird: it seems to me that getting a message secretly to the server, and what that message is to be are orthogonal issues
22:21:17 <ehird> oerjan: Yes, I guess so.
22:21:18 <fizzie> No, really; you need at some point to tell the server something that can be later used to log in as you.
22:21:38 <ehird> the server sends down a long nonce
22:21:47 <ehird> and the client does encrypt(nonce, password)
22:21:54 <ehird> then the server uses a third function verify(encrypted, key)
22:21:58 <fizzie> So that amounts to telling the server a "password" -- which it sees -- and which can be used by someone else to log in, if they manage to catch it.
22:22:02 <ehird> with the public part of that password
22:22:07 <ehird> i'm reinventing gpg key
22:22:25 <ehird> fizzie: Well, yes.
22:22:40 <ehird> The only situation I'm defending from is "a h4x0r has got a hold of the users database"
22:22:58 <fizzie> ehird: But you can do that already, by having the server hash the thing it receives from the client.
22:23:08 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, I said it wrong
22:23:15 <ehird> say password P is vital to my liiiiiiiiiife
22:23:20 <ehird> if anyone sees it, they can kill me.
22:23:30 <fizzie> Then you will have the client hash it before using it for the password to the service.
22:23:34 <ehird> I want to be able to log in with P, while not having P seeable by the server
22:23:51 <ehird> client sends hash(password)
22:23:57 <fizzie> So you use hash(P) as the password to that particular service. Problem solved.
22:23:59 <ehird> server has hash(hash(password)+salt) on the server
22:24:07 <ehird> it checks that hashed thing is ...
22:24:27 <ehird> I do need something similar for another step of it:
22:24:38 <ehird> server sends opaque data which can only be decrypted with the user's password
22:24:45 <ehird> but without the server knowing the password
22:24:50 <ehird> and the client does the encryption
22:25:03 <ehird> So I just need some basic encrypt(stuff, pass) function, really.
22:25:13 <ehird> I should probably look up which of those are good.
22:26:47 <fizzie> AES is what everyone's using, since it's The Standard.
22:28:18 <ehird> fizzie: Mm. I wonder if there are AES libraries for javascript?
22:28:30 <ehird> And how terribly slow they are :-P
22:28:41 <fizzie> Sure, at least five of them in the AES wikipedia article already.
22:28:57 <oklopol> ehird: umm, and why couldn't the evil haxor use the hash of the password after the client sent it?
22:29:09 <ehird> oklopol: my mind was blurred
22:29:13 <ehird> h4x0r isn't the important thing
22:29:16 <ehird> the server not knowing the password was
22:29:28 <oklopol> if you just want the password to be safe, then my scheme was correct.
22:29:36 <oklopol> it's essentially the same as yours
22:29:39 <ehird> which is why i'm using it
22:29:59 <oklopol> yes yes, but i don't consider myself capable of this kind of thinking.
22:30:06 <oklopol> so i'm going to leave QUICKLY
22:31:46 <ehird> I wonder if AES does hashing too?
22:31:48 <ehird> Then I could drop blowfish.
22:33:32 <fizzie> There are constructions to turn a block cipher to a (cryptographic) hash function.
22:33:53 <fizzie> Sure; usually they are a bit slower than actual designed hash functions, though.
22:34:10 <ehird> Slower is better when you don't want people to try and bruteforce, naturally.
22:34:30 <fizzie> If you want slow, you can just add more iterations of the hash function.
22:34:41 <ehird> Yeah, but it's also nice to have a unified encryption/hash function thingy.
22:34:46 <ehird> Any pointers to these constructions?
22:35:05 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-way_compression_function seems to have quite a list; up there in the third paragraph of the intro.
22:36:37 <fizzie> Despite the fancy names, the actual constructions are relatively simple.
22:39:34 <ehird> I'm not quite getting how to go from encrypt(text, key) to hash(text), but oh well.
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22:42:25 <fizzie> In the simplest case you just divide 'text' to cipher-key-sized blocks (with suitable padding in the end), then starting from some initial H you just repeatedly xor that value with the value encrypted by using the current message block as the key.
22:42:59 <fizzie> Of course if encrypt(text, key) does some more clever block cipher mode of operation, you'd want to use a lower-level function here.
22:44:46 <fizzie> (Not here any longer.)
22:55:51 <ehird> perl -e '$|++; printf "\e[3;%d;%dt", map { 300*(1.5+sin(++$m * $_)+0.3*cos($m*$_*5)) } .005,.008 until select $x,$x,$x,0.02'
22:55:56 <ehird> You shall be amazed.
22:58:33 <oklopol> i'm guessing it's an ellipse
22:58:42 <oklopol> don't really know perl though
22:59:05 <oklopol> try it? how? think i have perl :|
22:59:11 <ehird> i didn't even know there were control characters to do that
22:59:14 <ehird> oklopol: it moves around your terminal window
22:59:41 <oklopol> yeah okay i didn't see that coming
22:59:54 <oklopol> is that like some sorta ESC
23:00:26 <oklopol> yeah okay i didn't exactly read the format string
23:00:35 <oklopol> the wave seems needlessly complicated
23:00:42 <ehird> it seems needlessly AWESOME
23:01:25 <oklopol> does it move both up-down and right-left?
23:01:49 <oklopol> i don't actually know what the exact semantics of "until select" are.
23:05:03 <fizzie> The "until select $x,$x,$x,0.02" just does "infinite loop with 0.02 second delay between iterations".
23:05:52 <fizzie> Since $x is not initialized to any specific value, the select's FD sets are empty, so it waits until that 0.02 second timeout.
23:06:53 <oklopol> i thought it was some sorta "select case"
23:07:18 <oklopol> forgot perl lets you skip parens around params
23:07:41 <oklopol> what's the map mapped over?
23:08:16 <fizzie> The list (0.005, 0.008) most likely; not quite sure.
23:08:45 <oklopol> that explains the sin+cos.
23:08:54 <oklopol> god i'm an idiot, that was so trivial
23:09:13 <fizzie> The result for 0.005 becomes the first %d, for 0.008 the second.
23:09:36 <oklopol> yeah, i know exactly how it works now
23:10:26 <fizzie> Can't say I recall offhand what \e[...t is, though.
23:11:07 <fizzie> I remember \e[...m for the attribute-setting, and \e[...f for cursor movement.
23:11:15 <oklopol> i guess it's the one that moves the terminal?
23:11:38 * oerjan imagines physical VT100s bouncing all over the place
23:12:34 <ehird> that would be great
23:12:58 <oerjan> well, actually VT320s since that is what the university had when i started there
23:13:20 <oerjan> (i think, not sure of the 2)
23:13:29 <fizzie> Oh, right, it's the dtterm-stolen window manipulation thing.
23:13:51 <fizzie> No wonder it didn't do anything in this tiling-style window manager.
23:14:32 <oerjan> it worked great in putty
23:15:40 <fizzie> Actually I'm a bit surprised those aren't disabled by default; the usefulness is a bit questionable.
23:15:41 <ehird> I am tired. If I have a number N, how do I make it the nearest (going upwards) multiple of M?
23:15:42 <oerjan> (connecting to a linux machine)
23:16:06 <fizzie> (N+M-1)/M*M with truncating division is the usual thing.
23:16:51 <fizzie> The +M-1 makes sure that current multiples of M aren't bumped upwards, but anything larger is.
23:24:25 <ehird> Now hwy is there blowfish for JS but not bcrypt for js?
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00:45:25 <ehird> http://www.mscs.dal.ca/~selinger/md5collision/
01:02:52 <Slereah> How is called the . args thingamagig in Scheme?
01:02:55 <Slereah> So I can find sum tutorial
01:06:20 <oerjan> http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_sec_4.1.4
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01:23:42 <Slereah> Maybe I should try pattern-matching for the pi calculus.
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01:33:03 <Slereah_> rec: expects either an identifier followed by an expresion, or a (possibly dotted) sequence of identifiers followed by a body in: rec
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02:55:21 <Slereah_> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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03:10:44 <warrie_> Agora Nomic has a People's Bank of Agora, where people can deposit their assets in exchange for coins. The exchange rate goes down by 2 coins every week the Bank has some of that asset on hand.
03:11:35 <warrie_> I determined that in theory, the exchange rate should plummet to 0 weekly. It hasn't actually done this, but in theory, theory and practice are the same. Therefore, I feel leet.
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03:37:22 <Doitle2> Need correct key??? Anyone else in here ever been in #chrome?
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05:52:51 <Doitle2> woo my program triggers a virus scanner...
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05:57:15 <Doitle2> I've gotta figure out some way to prevent nod32 from screwing with this program...
05:57:35 <Doitle2> I wrote a simple mail server in Java and it keeps interfering and trying to scan fictional messages
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11:55:26 <ehird> it kind of sucks that there isn't a complete pgp in js impl
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12:45:08 <fizzie> That one is not bad either.
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16:47:01 * oklopol destroys the pattern of greetings.
16:49:28 <GregorR> And a good destroys the pattern of greetings to you too, oklopol!
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17:35:29 <oklopol> fizzie: i got over the hurdle.
17:35:41 <oklopol> tripped shortly after, 54.8 meters
17:36:09 <fizzie> Did you run (like run-run, for real) the whole time?
17:36:09 <oklopol> enough for today, i've set a deadline on success for sunday, so i'm not really in a hurry yet.
17:36:32 <oklopol> i occasionally trip, and have to rise up again
17:36:54 <oklopol> but i don't do anything fishy.
17:37:59 <oklopol> it's not exactly that graceful, my jumps are way too high to be speed-optimal, and i fall on my knees like every 6 jumps.
17:38:23 <oklopol> but i am technically running, i can show you a vid once i master this.
17:43:09 <Slereah> The problem with recursive functions on Scheme is that you have to compose every goddamn functions
17:43:19 <Slereah> And that's annoying, because Scheme can't do that naturally3
17:43:56 <ais523> Slereah: use a concatenative lang, composing is the most natural thing in the world for those
17:44:22 <Slereah> Well, there's only one function left to do, and I don't want all the rest to go to waste.
17:44:49 <fizzie> I don't think function composition is so very unnatural in Scheme either.
17:45:24 <oklopol> can't you just write it as a function?
17:45:28 <Slereah> Well, you can't do something like (s s), where s is the successor function
17:45:59 <Slereah> Well, you can try, but it will tell you that you can't feed procedures to +.
17:46:31 <fizzie> That's supposed to do (lambda (x) (s (s x))) or something?
17:46:53 <Slereah> Well, fortunately, recursive functions don't really need to do that for all functions.
17:47:38 <Slereah> Substitution and recursion
17:48:33 <fizzie> You can always write a macro to turn (c f g) into something that returns the composition of f and g.
17:48:56 <Slereah> Substitution is pretty much function composition
17:49:11 <fizzie> And I guess it doesn't really need to be a macro if it just takes functions and returns their composition.
17:50:18 <Slereah> All that remain to do is to make the recursion schema return a function instead of a value.
17:50:36 <Slereah> Something annoying is that with recursive functions, everything is a function.
17:50:45 <Slereah> So in the end, I don't actually get a number.
17:51:05 <Slereah> I have to apply something to it, because the constant function is C(x,y,z,...) = 0
17:51:15 <Slereah> Otherwise, it doesn't work with the schema.
17:51:30 <fizzie> SICP exercise 1.42 is the procedure 'compose' for that, actually.
17:52:37 <Slereah> After I do that, I'll do the actual language, where you can input either a number or a string that will be godelized
17:52:49 <Slereah> Fuck that will be annoying
17:53:40 <fizzie> I should fix jitfunge's mycology regression.
17:53:56 <ais523> how far through mycology does jitfunge get?
17:54:21 <fizzie> Now it prints "GOOD: ..." lines, followed by "GGOD: 0! = 1", then "BAD: 7! != 0" and a ^G character.
17:54:42 <fizzie> It used to do mycology cleanly up to "BAD: k reflects" (because I haven't done k at all yet).
17:55:14 <fizzie> I'm not sure what's up with GGOD there.
17:56:29 <fizzie> The program "001p 01g!. 01g7+!. 01g7+!!. a, @" prints out "1 0 1" like it should, so the bug is less obvious.
17:57:12 <fizzie> (I first tried the program "0!. 7!. 7!!. a, @" but noticed that it gets compiled into "printnum(1); printnum(0); printnum(1);" basically.
17:57:12 <ais523> looks like memory corruption
17:59:26 <fizzie> mycology is annoyingly complicated to test; I'd like to get a smaller test case.
17:59:48 <fizzie> It runs underload.b98 and the 99bob Underload program just fine, and life.bf too, so it's not completely broken.
18:01:36 <Deewiant> 'smaller'? Up to that point it's probably 10 lines or so :-P
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18:03:28 <fizzie> It's still already 384 lines of output with jitfunge's "-d" flag; I'd like something that generates only one or two compiled sort-of-functions so I can just disassemble them and see what goes wrong.
18:03:58 <Deewiant> you can try just removing stuff from the beginning onward
18:04:51 <fizzie> With any luck it won't then crash any longer.
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18:06:54 <fizzie> At least the 14 first lines of mycology cause the same thing.
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18:34:03 <fizzie> Well, at least I did get a small test program: "1:$#@ #$_1.a,@" prints out 1, even though it really shouldn't.
18:41:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | how would i know?.
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18:48:01 <Deewiant> jitfunge is, I think, C, if that's what you meant
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18:53:01 <ehird_gobo> Deewiant: Installing gobolinux on a mac/
18:53:32 <Deewiant> I was under the impression it was old
18:53:47 <ehird_gobo> there's 26 people in the irc channel for what that's worth
18:55:21 <Deewiant> What's its status package-wise
18:56:04 <Deewiant> I presume it needs its own packages so that it can use that fancy directory hierarchy
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18:58:36 <Deewiant> It installs everything from source?
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18:58:49 <ehird_gobo> Deewiant: it also has precompiled packages, but yes.
18:58:54 <ehird_gobo> it's a portage/portfile-style solution
18:58:59 <Deewiant> So it's like Gentoo in that respect
18:59:11 <ehird_gobo> http://gobolinux.org/index.php?page=packages
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18:59:24 <Deewiant> How about package-specific options like Gentoo, does it do anything like that?
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19:00:21 <Deewiant> That seems to be the main advantage of installing from source, to me
19:00:50 <ehird_gobo> Also, it compiles everything & its dependencies into a chroot
19:00:56 <ehird_gobo> Before putting it into the system tree
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19:02:36 <ais523> ehird_gobo: you alive yet?
19:02:46 <ehird_gobo> ais523: I've been talking, have I not?
19:02:56 <ais523> how broken is your computer atm?
19:02:58 <ehird_gobo> ais523: you know those kernel vesa strings
19:03:23 <Deewiant> It's not that simple, I don't think
19:03:23 <ais523> ehird_gobo: I don't know off by heart
19:03:34 <Deewiant> It specifies more than just resolution
19:04:15 <ais523> wow, hibernate actually works on this version of Ubuntu
19:05:00 <Deewiant> ehird_gobo: TBH I'm not sure if it supports non-4:3 resolutions
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19:05:05 <ais523> ehird_gobo: it almost worked before, just it wasn't as fast and it got the screen res wrong
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19:05:25 <Deewiant> ehird_gobo: I could check what my laptop has for 1400x1050 but I'm feeling lazy :-P
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19:07:01 <ais523> ehird_gobo: it seems there's a longer format, try video=1600x1280-32@60
19:07:02 <Deewiant> I don't even know the way of finding out those numbers
19:07:10 <ais523> replacing 32 and 60 with your color depth and refresh rate
19:07:26 <Deewiant> You have to set in the kernel which frame buffer to use
19:07:32 <Deewiant> One uses the vga= syntax, the other that one
19:07:37 <Deewiant> I don't think any supports both
19:07:53 <fizzie> That's the truth: vesafb only does the vga=X mode thing.
19:08:00 <fizzie> Which makes sense, since it only uses the VESA functions.
19:08:10 <fizzie> The others are more flexible.
19:08:11 <ais523> and a different one does the longer mode string
19:08:38 <Hiato> Oh, by the way, AnMaster (if it was you I was asking about Unlambda), the answer to the multiple arguments problem I had is currying. Just thought I'd let you know (though I know you know that already :P )
19:08:43 <ehird_gobo> Backup copy of /dev/sda in /boot/boot.0800 The Master Boot Record of /dev/sda has been updated.
19:09:25 <ais523> I found a table of numbers, it seems all the resolutions that supports are 4:3 ones
19:10:10 <fizzie> Well, the card might well support modes that are not listed in some table.
19:11:48 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VESA_BIOS_Extensions has a longer table of "Linux video mode numbers", wtih 1440x900, but it doesn't have the 1680x1280 one either.
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19:12:40 <ais523> I just found a pdf on vesa.org
19:13:23 <ais523> hmm... it seems to be down
19:13:34 <fizzie> Still, it often makes sense to use the chipset-specific frame buffer instead of vesafb; those let you change modes on runtime and everything. And of course X (if not using the fbdev driver) doesn't much care.
19:14:10 <ais523> fizzie: can you access vesa.org from where you are? there seems to be something wrong with it
19:15:04 <fizzie> But I don't think they've had time to actually define any fancy modes yet; it's, what, 2008? Maybe some time during the next decade.
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19:18:25 <fizzie> Hah, that was a funny jitfunge bug; when adding the 'IF' operation it didn't clear the constant-folding-stack, so something like 1#$_ would add "push 1" to the op list, then "if", then see the $ (since it branch-predicts true always) and remove the "push 1" because it thought it was discarding a constant.
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19:20:59 <fizzie> Not quite working yet either: http://zem.fi/~fis/mycout.txt
19:21:42 <Deewiant> I need to add a note to the readme: the interpreter is not meant to stutter
19:22:03 <ehird_gobo> GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD: , wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooorks!
19:24:10 <fizzie> It's rather impressive that I get "wo works" out of the code "skrow , :DOOG",,,,,,,,,,,,,
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19:25:43 <fizzie> It's again something more complicated, since isolating that piece of code doesn't break it.
19:26:10 <fizzie> If I just run the 14 first lines of mycology, the output is correct.
19:28:43 <fizzie> Er... if I *don't* redirect the output to file, the beginning is also correct (the missing "0 1 2 3" in the beginning is there and no stutter) but the last line is "EAD: k reflects" instead of "BAD: ...".
19:29:28 <ais523> fizzie: sounds very very like memory corruption
19:30:09 <fizzie> Under gdb it segfaults after "GOOD: : duplicates".
19:30:11 <Deewiant> I'm not surprised, considering what he's doing
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19:30:25 <fizzie> With a helpful backtrace:
19:30:26 <fizzie> #0 0xf7fb503b in ?? ()
19:30:26 <fizzie> #1 0x00000000 in ?? ()
19:30:28 <Deewiant> That project should never have been undertaken :-P
19:31:08 <Deewiant> fizzie: try running with and without debugging symbols, and with different degrees of optimization, etc. Should be fun ;-)
19:32:18 <fizzie> It's funny how -- despite how utterly buggy it seems to be -- it still runs underload.b98 and the 99bob program, as well as life.bf.
19:33:49 <Deewiant> And are you sure there's not a typo or something somewhere? ;-)
19:34:01 <fizzie> Substituting the -O3 flag with -ggdb did nothing, but it's funny how I get different output from "build/jitfunge mycology.b98" than "build/jitfunge mycology.b98 | cat".
19:34:43 <ais523> fizzie: step up to the point where it segfaults, checking the backtrace every now and then
19:34:46 <ais523> when it goes mad, there's the bug
19:36:22 <fizzie> The 99bob output is (according to diff) identical to what I get from cfunge.
19:36:34 <fizzie> Well, when redirecting to a file, anyway. :p
19:36:43 <ais523> it's probably something mycology does that causes corruption
19:36:49 <ais523> and the corruption doesn't strike instantly but later on
19:37:50 <fizzie> Actually I think 0xf7fb503b is in one of my generated functions; O
19:40:22 <fizzie> The segfault is just stack underflow. :/
19:41:01 <fizzie> It's handled properly by the SIGSEGV handler, I think, it's just that gdb doesn't like it. I can "cont" past it just fine.
19:41:20 <fizzie> Aw, I was hoping for a big red arrow pointing at a piece of code and saying "here's your bug".
19:41:22 <ais523> gdb always catches signals
19:41:30 <ais523> even if the code handles them correctly
19:41:45 <ais523> possibly there's a don't-break-on-segfaults option, I don't know
19:41:59 <ais523> Deewiant: does Mycology test stack underflow, by the way?
19:42:23 <fizzie> It seems to pop from empty stack quite many times, assuming these signals are correct.
19:42:35 <ais523> that wouldn't surprise me
19:42:42 <ais523> any Funge programmer knows that's a ready source of zeroes
19:43:07 <fizzie> I don't pop from the empty stack at all in fungot.
19:43:08 <fungot> fizzie: to. why he is the generall challenger, i come to know your heaviness.' ' in night, and let driue at me; for ( as we terme it) his friends, his state vsurp'd, his realme a slaughter-house, his subjects to oppression and contempt, and any thing that you should beare me on your shoulders
19:43:13 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
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19:43:47 <fizzie> Oh, it was your fault for suggesting it?
19:43:52 <fizzie> Forgot who mentioned it.
19:45:04 <fizzie> Well, it wasn't a big thing. It's just a fixed list, I didn't add any list manipulation commands.
19:45:14 <fizzie> (Probably should've made ^reload to reload it, though.)
19:46:57 <fizzie> Aw, my job was the 59999th job on the CIS cluster (since the last reboot, probably). I'm sure they have a prize for whoever gets the 60000th job.
19:47:57 <Deewiant> Hell, I put in way more than 10000 jobs on the TCS cluster over the summer.
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19:48:19 <Deewiant> Although maybe I didn't get anything just because I was an intern...
19:48:33 <fizzie> Maybe you just didn't hit the right round numbers.
19:50:23 <fizzie> Oh. Well, they *should* have something. Maybe a script that automagically prints a fancy diploma to the closest printer.
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19:57:34 <fizzie> Somehow I'm not too surprised jitfunge doesn't play nice with valgrind.
19:58:06 <fizzie> I get "vex x86->IR: unhandled instruction bytes: 0xFF 0xFF 0xFF 0x0" out of it.
19:58:23 <ais523> does that sequence of instruction bytes make sense on x86?
19:59:44 <ais523> but it would raise SIGILL if it didn't
20:00:05 <ais523> what's wrong with SIGILL?
20:00:11 <ehird> it makes me think of SIGKILL
20:00:14 <ais523> other than the fact it means you just came across corrupted machine code?
20:00:21 <ehird> and sig ill as in unhealthy
20:00:50 <fizzie> 0xff00 would be inc dword [eax] but 0xff 0xff is not really anything.
20:00:51 <Deewiant> Well, it is unhealthy, it's food that's not meant for digestion... or something
20:01:59 <fizzie> I've got sigill once already (with some jumps in the middle of instructions) but I suspect some other valgrind-related complicity is causing this one.
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20:03:55 <fizzie> Under valgrind, it tries to execute some of the data I have there after the RET in the code. Not quite sure why.
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20:22:25 <ais523> fungot: give me some more agora-nonsense
20:22:32 <fungot> ais523: the cotc's report includes a list of succession.)
20:22:40 <ais523> ok, fungot, that one made more sense
20:22:40 <fungot> ais523: this rule. however, in the next week,
20:22:53 <ais523> fungot: the suspense is killing me!
20:22:53 <fungot> ais523: the player so appointed is herein referred to unambiguously in that currency. this rule.
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20:45:12 <ais523> and hi person who is almost certainly ehird
20:45:30 <gobo> Interwebs should work on reboot, just need to:
20:45:35 <gobo> 1. fix ansi art bootup weirdness
20:45:39 <gobo> 2. update EVERYTHING...
20:45:45 <gobo> 3. get a resolution that doesn't hate kittens
20:45:51 <ais523> ansi art ~= ascii art?
20:45:54 <gobo> 4. make it look nice, etc, salt to taste
20:45:57 <gobo> ais523: well, vesa art
20:46:09 <gobo> control character art for the bootup sequence is all garbled
20:47:11 <ais523> I know that when I was running knoppix in a VM on here, the bootup sequence was garbled but it worked fine after tthat
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20:56:11 <ehird_gobo> 'Tis great this. Now just to get it working working
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21:29:51 <ehird> ais523|direct: what happened?
21:30:03 <ehird> ugh... is rutian ok?
21:30:25 <ais523|direct> [21:29] <-psyBNC> Wed Nov 12 21:29:32 :User ais523: cant connect to irc.freenode.net port 6667.
21:30:27 <ais523|direct> [21:29] <-psyBNC> Wed Nov 12 21:29:36 :User ais523 () trying irc.freenode.net port 6667 ().
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21:31:50 <ehird> ais523: not quite.
21:32:12 <ehird> how do you type pipe on a standard uk keyboard
21:32:23 <ais523> as I said earlier; did you not receive that?
21:32:33 <ais523> what does shift-2 give you?
21:32:51 <ehird> actually, us layout is probably closer to this apple keyboard
21:33:02 <ehird> cuz its a US keyboard... :~
21:33:07 <ais523> why do you ask, do you have the wrong keyboard layout?
21:33:35 <ais523> there should be a preference somewhere to change it
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21:49:48 <ehird_> The resolutions are borked.
21:49:54 <ehird_> I put in a Modes line but its still at 1024x768
21:49:56 <ais523> I don't know much about X
21:50:15 <ais523> that's one good thing about Ubuntu, they've got really good at auto-detecting the stuff X needs atm
21:50:49 <ehird_> I can assure you that every distro is pretty terrible with macs :-P
21:50:51 <ais523> try asking in a channel which does know
21:50:55 <ais523> I wonder if there's a #x?
21:50:58 <ehird_> They're talking about other things.
21:51:05 <ehird_> X, related. Ironically
21:53:53 <fizzie> Often you can get by with the preferencesies thing of your desktop environment, if you have one. I think at least Gnome and KDE have some sort of display preferences thing.
21:54:43 <ehird_> yeah, 'cept its capped at this res
21:54:49 <ehird_> I should be getting 1600x1280
21:55:04 <fizzie> Well, what sort of chipset you have there in that thing?
21:55:18 <ais523> when I had that problem I had to download the package for my chipset
21:55:29 <ais523> probably I have a different chipset to you, though, so you'll need a different package
21:55:31 <ehird_> fizzie: I wish I knew.
21:55:42 <fizzie> Well, the Internets probably know.
21:55:46 <fizzie> "lspci" usually knows too.
21:55:56 <ehird_> 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc M56P [Radeon Mobility X1600]
21:56:30 <ais523> the ATI drivers for Linux are binary blobs, AFAIR
21:56:38 <fizzie> For ATI that's so new, there's the open-source rather new radeonhd, or alternatively the binary-only fglrx.
21:56:40 <ais523> which means probably they don't work on 64-bit, unless they special-cased that
21:57:10 <ehird_> heck, OS X Tiger is 32-bit.
21:57:13 <ais523> see which of the packages fizzie mentioned is in gobolinux's package manger, and install it
21:57:23 <ehird_> XF86-Video-ATI 6.9.0-r1
21:57:25 <ehird_> That looks reasonable.
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21:57:51 <fizzie> Well, if you want to be adventureous.
21:57:55 <ehird_> BLEEDING EDGE IS AWESOME
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21:58:44 <fizzie> "RADEONHD is still very much work in progress. At the time of this writing, radeonhd has the following major limitations: NO support for 2D & 3D acceleration, no support for Xvideo. Suspend & Resume is pretty much untested. Often it just works, but your milage may vary." says my man page.
21:58:56 <fizzie> Although I seem to remember they had some sort of 2D acceleration going on by now.
21:59:19 <fizzie> http://wiki.x.org/wiki/radeonhd is probably the best source of info re that driver.
21:59:41 <fizzie> I'm not sure if the old radeon driver supports the newer R500-or-newer ATI chipsets at all.
22:00:02 <ehird_> Is this really "new"? December 06 is when I got it/.
22:00:34 <fizzie> "RV530/RV560 Radeon X1600/X1650/X1700" is mentioned in the radeon driver, so maybe that one will also work.
22:01:04 <ehird_> Compile: XF86-Video-RadeonHD is part of the Xorg-Driver meta recipe, but no version of Xorg-Driver could be found. Do you want to install XF86-Video-RadeonHD separately? [Y/n]
22:01:12 <ehird_> Dude. Compile. These are hard questions. TELL ME WHAT TO DO ;_;
22:01:28 <ais523> Compile tries to guess dependencies
22:01:32 <ais523> and asks the user for confirmation
22:01:40 <fizzie> I don't know what a "meta recipe" is; your Linux is so strange.
22:01:45 <ehird_> that's just some weird metarecipe stuff
22:01:55 <ehird_> fizzie: Considering it has an entirely new filesystem structure and no "package manager" to speak of...
22:01:58 <ais523> well, it says gobolinux allows installation even without dependencies being present
22:02:02 <ehird_> (The filesystem IS the package manager)
22:02:22 <ehird_> Ok, restart X time, maybe.
22:02:37 <ehird_> Don't I have to configure xorg.conf
22:02:48 <fizzie> Probably depends what you have there.
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22:04:25 <ehird_> Oh hey now THIS is nice.
22:04:48 <ehird_> And the anti-aliasing is, um, nice.
22:05:00 <ais523> screenshot, so we can all see what ehird's new second OS is like?
22:05:12 <ais523> btw, probably you want kde3 rather than 4 atm, 4 is a bit unfinished IMO
22:05:14 <ehird_> Sure thang, as soon as I figure out how to take a screenshot.
22:05:29 <ehird_> Also, I can't install KDE packages without kde4, obviously
22:05:34 <ehird_> Due to it being the newest repo version
22:05:46 <fizzie> Is it that radeonhd now?
22:05:47 <ais523> the bits that are there in kde4 are nice, but the bits that are missing are missing
22:06:19 <ehird_> The fonts are a ... bit oversized.
22:06:21 <fizzie> Last I looked, the old "radeon" driver had no support for things newer than R400, but it seems they've added those R500/R600 cards too nowadays.
22:06:24 <ehird_> I don't think it's grasped the 100dpi thing yet.
22:06:47 <ehird_> http://xs233.xs.to/xs233/08463/snapshot1258.png big screenshot
22:07:04 <ais523> ehird_: strange website to put it on...
22:07:11 <ehird_> ais523: default startup page :P
22:07:52 <ehird_> xs.to is an imagehosting service.
22:08:06 <ehird_> but yeah, those fonts are huge.
22:08:10 <ais523> anyway, looks good, although obviously the anti-aliasing doesn't look right in a screenshot
22:08:17 <fizzie> You can set the DPI in xorg.conf, but that thing also is probably somewhere in them preferences.
22:08:19 <ais523> there should be an option to globally shrink fonts somewhere
22:09:35 <fizzie> It would be a good idea to tell it the real DPI of the panel -- although optimally it should be clever enough to figure that out by itself -- so that things that care, like Gimp, know it.
22:09:50 * ehird_ tries to set mouse accelleration to <1x
22:10:39 <ais523> I have quite a slow mouse speed by default
22:10:41 * ehird_ installs subpixel hinting
22:11:08 <ais523> ehird_: with a dpi that high you'll have to stare really hard at the screen to figure out which of the 4 options works best, won't you?
22:11:33 <ehird_> The DPI is high enough that Full is obviously the best option.
22:11:52 <ais523> it took me a lot of staring to work out what it was on my screen
22:12:00 <ehird_> ais523: almost certainly rgb.
22:12:18 <fizzie> What's the screen size there, then?
22:12:55 <fizzie> I meant physical size; but right, you said 100 DPI. Somehow I read that as a hypothetical example or something.
22:13:46 -!- Sgeo[College] has joined.
22:13:53 <ehird_> (Next up on #esoteric: Someone gets the brilliant idea to take that out of context)
22:14:21 <ehird_> ais523: HOW DO I STOP THE RESIZE CONTROLS FROM APPEARING ON MAXIMIZED WINDOWS
22:14:25 <ehird_> IT IS DESTROYING MY FITT'S LAW
22:14:35 <fizzie> This 24" 1920x1200 screen has (well, if I believe what the driver says) 94 DPI, which is a reasonably nice combination.
22:14:43 <ais523> ehird_: if you're on KDE, it has an option for absolutely everything I think
22:14:47 <ais523> you just have to find it
22:14:56 <ehird_> ais523: Whatever happened to reasonable defaults?
22:15:00 <ais523> (on KDE 4, I couldn't find the options at all)
22:15:01 <ehird_> Oh wait, this is Linux.
22:15:30 <ais523> hmm... it seems that maximised windows don't have resize handles any more on this version of Gnome, they used to
22:15:44 <ais523> I think I even used them on occasion
22:16:18 * ehird_ changes all system fonts to helvetica because bitstream is the scourge of the earth
22:16:45 <ehird_> Oh right, it's non-free.
22:16:59 <ais523> well, that doesn't mean a Linux version doesn't exist
22:17:10 <ehird_> I sure feel freedom-enhancedwith this. Free by default!
22:17:22 <ais523> not everyone has the same love of helvetica you do...
22:18:04 <ehird_> But it's kind of sad that there are like 3 fonts on this system, and they're all free, and they're all pig-ugly.
22:18:08 <ais523> not today, I'm pretty sure you implied you did years ago though
22:18:21 <ais523> and what sort of package choice does gobolinux install by default?
22:18:31 <ehird_> More barebones than Ubuntu.
22:18:37 <ais523> if it's not many packages, it seems relatively likely that they only installed just enough fonts to get the thing working
22:18:43 <ais523> and have more as options
22:18:44 <ehird_> System stuff, openoffice, browser, irc client, etc
22:18:58 <ais523> didn't you install the IRC client yourself?
22:19:47 <ehird_> No; a shitty circa-2002 one came by default.
22:20:09 <Sgeo[College]> ehird_ CTCP: VERSION Konversation 1.0.1 (C) 2002-2006 by the Konversation team
22:20:13 <ais523> ok, presumably it's so people can get help on a newly installed version
22:20:39 <ais523> hmm... I have a newer Konversation than ehird_, it seems
22:21:17 <ehird_> No sound on this; that's annoying.
22:21:32 <oklopol> there's a prefectly good set of characters in the rom, why use fonts :o
22:21:51 <ais523> ehird_: there are about 6 different options for sound under Linux, IME about 3 or 4 of them work on any given system
22:21:55 <ehird_> i bet the oklotalk OS will be like colorforth except moreso
22:21:57 <ais523> KDE4 autoselects one that works which is nice
22:22:01 <Sgeo[College]> When I put Freespire on my laptop, sound worked, but there was no way to control the volume
22:22:01 <ehird_> ais523: yeah, but drivers, yo.
22:22:13 <oklopol> i don't know colorforth, but if it's mentioned two more times, i will look at it
22:22:25 <oklopol> (and the two colorforths ehird now says don't count)
22:23:10 <ehird_> oklopol: it's not "now" any more
22:23:12 <ais523> I've heard colorforth mentioned before, but I don't know what it is
22:23:17 <ais523> maybe I should look at it too
22:23:27 <ais523> but it's easier to wait here and hope someone will tell me what it is
22:23:45 <ehird_> ais523: colorforth is a magical unicorn.
22:24:09 <oklopol> i assume it's some kinda gui for forth, but i have no idea really.
22:24:20 <ehird_> it's an OS written in assembly and forth
22:24:24 <ehird_> the assembly is like 100 lines
22:24:29 <ehird_> written by chuck moore
22:24:35 <ehird_> it's literally colorforth
22:24:38 <Sgeo[College]> ehird_, Freespire only sucks when you realize that you've been using Ubuntu for a while and all your settings are on Ubuntu and you're too lazy to transfer stuff and also when printers don't just work, but due to some boot record mixup or something you're unable to boot to Ubuntu
22:24:39 <ehird_> instead of : and ; and stuff
22:24:49 <ehird_> Sgeo[College]: freespire sucks because it's linspire
22:25:06 <oklopol> hmm, that does sound interesting
22:25:09 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: "too lazy to transfer stuff"? just copy across all the dot directories
22:25:43 <ehird_> how could you possible conform to the linux masses :D
22:26:00 <ais523> so... it sucks because it doesn't have your settings, you could easily copy your settings but you want it to be different so you don't?
22:27:09 <ehird_> ehird@kitten ~]sudo InstallPackage KDE
22:27:11 * Sgeo[College] vaguely thinks that he should never have switched from Windows to Linux
22:28:19 <ehird_> The funny thing is, GoboLinux is pretty much exactly what any distribution I made would be like.
22:28:39 <ehird_> MOUSE YOU HAVE A SCROLLWHEEL USE IT
22:28:39 <oklopol> i switched to linux, then back, all that changed is now i know linux is basically the same os as windows.
22:28:46 <ehird_> YES ITS A FANCY 3D ONE BUT GODDAMN >:(
22:28:50 <oklopol> i used to think it was something much more awesome
22:28:53 <Sgeo[College]> ais523: There are a lot of Windows-only programs I like
22:28:54 <ehird_> oklopol: from a user perspective, maybe
22:28:56 <ehird_> but internally, way different.
22:29:20 <oklopol> no matter how you look at it
22:29:27 <Sgeo[College]> Funny thing is, at this point in time, Linux is working better than Windows, and SL does not work well on Windows for me for some reason
22:29:42 <Sgeo[College]> But that's not the sort of thing I entered into using Linux on a regular basis knowing
22:29:42 <Doitle2> This might seem out of nowhere but has anyone ever played Sysop 3 on a BBS?
22:29:53 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: I thought sl was just a silly program that showed a picture of a steam train, to punish people for typoing "ls"
22:30:05 <ais523> Doitle2: I expect someone has, I haven't though
22:30:10 <Sgeo[College]> I didn't realize that installers would break on my Windows partition, and I didn't realize that SL would work better on Linux
22:30:12 <ehird_> ais523: SL = second life
22:30:30 <ehird_> Desktop logs snapshot1.png
22:30:37 <ehird_> no steam locomotives here
22:30:58 <Doitle2> I can't figure out how to make money and my phone line is damaged and I can't afford the service call to get it fixed... I'm a terrible Sysop
22:31:22 <ehird_> Doitle2: You missed the 80s. Sorry to be the bringer of bad news. :-P
22:31:44 <ais523> Doitle2: who are you, anyway? I don't think I've seen you around here before
22:31:45 <Doitle2> Exactly, I wasn't old enough to run my own BBS back in the 80s so I'm getting to experience a lost art
22:31:46 <ehird_> Wow, GoboLinux can auto-merge config files for new versions.
22:31:55 <Sgeo[College]> Is it sane to get irritated when one's economics professor states that the "70" in the Rule of 70 was derived by trial and error, when the Rule of 70 is clearly purely mathematical in nature, and not an estimatation based on economic observations/
22:32:07 <ehird_> Sgeo[College]: i dunno lol
22:32:08 <Doitle2> I joined maybe... 4-5 days ago after playing around with some BF and then joinin #bf and being redirected here
22:32:11 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: it rather depends on what the rule of 70 is
22:32:22 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!Hello, then!
22:32:30 <ehird_> SOMEONE FIX MY MOUSE WHEEL
22:32:33 <ehird_> optbot: say hi to Doitle2
22:32:44 <ehird_> http://www.marteydodoo.com/2007/06/08/wireless-mighty-mouse-on-ubuntu-linux/
22:33:59 <Doitle2> Does that bot interperet BF code?
22:34:10 <Doitle2> If not does that exist, if not if not... Could I make one... hmm
22:34:15 <ehird_> Doitle2: fungot interprets bF
22:34:15 <fungot> ehird_: for a new order of succession, that player
22:34:18 <ehird_> and is writen in befunge
22:34:26 <ehird_> thutubot is written in thutu (string rewriting language)
22:34:28 <ehird_> and interprets underload
22:34:33 <ais523> bots that interpret BF code aren't all that hard
22:34:35 <ehird_> optbot is written in ruby, and talks nonsense.
22:34:46 <ais523> hey, fungot talks nonsense too!
22:34:46 <fungot> ais523: elements: grafty
22:34:48 <ehird_> optbot: yes, you are pretty lame
22:34:56 <optbot> ehird_: it's loosely based on Sonata form
22:35:02 <optbot> ehird_: but blame my .bashrc for some of that
22:35:21 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | their own stack, own loaded fingerprints, position, delta, etc.....
22:35:28 <ais523> we need bots for more esolangs in here, really
22:35:34 <ais523> EgoBot did loads of them when it was around
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22:35:52 <ais523> atm we only have Underload and Brainfuck
22:36:08 <ais523> hmm... also fungot can run raw Funge as it has an eval command, but only fizzie can use it because it isn't sandboxed in any way
22:36:08 <fungot> ais523: message to the
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22:36:25 <fizzie> fungot runs underload too; although doing underload is not significantly harder than brainfuck in Befunge, especially if you do what I did and use the STRN fingerprint.
22:36:26 <ais523> fungot: spout some Shakespeare-like nonsense at me
22:36:26 <fungot> fizzie: cam. euen he, your wife, is she drown'd? queen. i see no sense for't, but some defect in her did quarrell with the noblest grace she ow'd, and put vp my yron dagger. answere me like men: when griping griefes the heart doth wound, then musicke with her siluer sound, because musitions sound for siluer pet. pratest to, what say you?
22:36:26 * Sgeo[College] is offended to learn that quite possibly, the rule of 70 was in fact initially derived by trial and error
22:36:27 <fungot> ais523: lenox. and that set together is noddy for my paines: i pray thee fnord them, with a quietness of spirit, life, honour, truth, and everything in readiness for fnord fnord i will have forty moys, or i: yet, you rogue!
22:36:41 <fizzie> The Bard was so fond of fnords.
22:36:45 <ehird_> gobo comes with nano but not vi...
22:36:48 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: because people didn't know how to logarithmise 2
22:37:31 <fizzie> (One version of) NetBSD comes with "ex" with instructions for "here's how to mount /usr in advance if you're such a wimp that you need vi instead of ex for config-file editing".
22:38:31 <ais523> "if you're such a wimp that you need vi instead of ex for config-file editing"
22:38:43 <ais523> that's the sort of attitude designed to repel people from Linux, I think
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22:38:51 <fizzie> Well, maybe it wasn't written exactly with those words.
22:39:03 <fizzie> That's just my interpretation.
22:39:26 <ehird_> ais523: that's called a joke, I think
22:39:49 <ais523> they should have bundled a full GUI with the config file
22:40:52 * ehird_ gets scared: He's starting to like linux
22:40:58 <ehird_> For an actual desktop OS :P
22:41:29 <ehird_> I'm sure it will piss me off soon enough.,
22:42:10 <ais523> oh, all OSs annoy me, it's just a case of sticking to one I can learn to get around
22:42:23 <ais523> ubuntu-proposed is nice as when it annoys me I can normally fix it
22:42:32 <ais523> and when I can't I can wait for someone else to often
22:42:53 <ehird_> you know, some day, firefox and emacs will merge.
22:43:01 <ehird_> and then grow a desktop environment.
22:43:06 <ehird_> and then a kernel, and a bootloader.
22:43:11 <ais523> ehird_: I've decided that emcas was in fact originally intended to be an OS not an editor
22:43:16 <ehird_> finally, you'll go out to the store
22:43:30 <AnMaster> ais523, Extended Magic Computer Algebra System?
22:43:33 <ehird_> meaning that it has finally grown physical hardware.
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22:43:35 <fizzie> Our work-workstations switched from SuSE into Ubuntu recently; following the hipness.
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22:44:09 <ais523> my favourite bacronym for Emacs is ESC Meta-Alt-Ctrl-Shift-...
22:44:12 <oklopol> AnMaster: is that a funny backronym for FBI?
22:44:14 <lament> emacs is a very old piece of software with no future
22:45:13 <AnMaster> ais523, also it is a nethack reference
22:45:16 <ehird_> lament: how come nobody calls _you_ out for your opinionated, unjustified statements
22:45:47 <ehird_> oh joy, AnMaster noticed your prescense
22:45:58 <ehird_> lament: i think you should just kick AnMaster forever.
22:46:10 <AnMaster> lament, because editor choice is subjective
22:46:21 <ais523> AnMaster: actually a very very vague slashem reference that took me about 10 seconds to get after I was told it was there
22:46:22 <ehird_> he said nothing about editor choice
22:46:30 <AnMaster> lament, I even know a few people who use ed daily
22:46:39 <lament> AnMaster: sure, how does that make me wrong?
22:46:50 <AnMaster> ais523, NetHack EM existed iirc
22:47:00 <AnMaster> it got merged into normal nethack
22:47:07 <ais523> it was a patch, not a different version
22:47:13 <ais523> and IIRC it was called the wizard patch
22:47:58 <ehird_> I wonder how AnMaster would react to gobolinux.
22:48:01 <ehird_> Shit, I just alerted him to it
22:48:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I like it, but I see a few issues
22:48:25 <ehird_> Which issues? It's been working fine for me.
22:48:25 <AnMaster> basically I dislike the dir hiding kernel module
22:48:49 <ehird_> "Get rid of the filesystem cruft, as long as you don't get rid of the filesystem cruft."
22:48:51 <fizzie> Yes, Slash'EM is a combination of SLASH and the Wizard Patch.
22:48:52 <AnMaster> ehird, but other than that I think it got some very good idea
22:49:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I haven't personally tried it however
22:49:42 <AnMaster> ehird, and to me it is just an alternative package manager
22:49:44 -!- Sgeo[College] has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
22:49:54 <AnMaster> as I said, I haven't personally tried it
22:50:39 <ais523> it's an alternative directory structure
22:50:41 <ehird_> It's just a decluttering of the filesystem layout that happens to let you have no package manager.
22:50:45 <ehird_> Also, it's a regular distro besides.
22:50:54 <ehird_> Not really a one-trick pony.
22:51:01 * ais523 wonders about a reverse-symlink gobolinux, which works exactly the same except that the symlinks are the other way round
22:51:13 <ehird_> ais523: That would kind of defeat the point, though.
22:51:20 <ais523> really? what's the difference?
22:51:25 <ais523> the cleanup scripts would work just as well
22:51:28 <ehird_> ais523: you benefit because the physical layout is like that
22:51:36 <ehird_> e.g. you can't have two versions simultaneously in the traditional layout
22:51:44 <ehird_> how can you have two version dirs linking to /usr/bin/prog
22:51:55 <ehird_> AnMaster: So, essentially, you defeat the point of gobolinux.
22:51:58 <ais523> ehird_: well how does it deal with that normally, given the symlinks are needed?
22:52:04 <ais523> it links one and not the other
22:52:05 <AnMaster> ehird, was just making a point
22:52:12 <ehird_> ais523: It just symlinks the active version. But the point is, /Programs is a permanent store.
22:52:16 <ais523> so you'd end up with one in the old tree and one in the new tree, dormant but runnable
22:52:27 <ais523> better still: hardlinks!
22:52:44 <ais523> you just need some way to find the other end of a hardlink that's more efficient than scanning the entire filesystem
22:52:47 <ehird_> anyway, there's no actual reason to do it the reverse way
22:52:49 <ais523> (or the other 2+ ends)
22:52:59 <ehird_> the symlinks are only there for legacy programs which can't handle a different layout.
22:53:03 <ais523> I'm just trying to demonstrate that the idea isn't so different
22:53:12 <AnMaster> hardlinks break separate / /usr and so on
22:53:17 <ais523> ehird_: no, not at all, they're also there for the PATH
22:53:21 <AnMaster> since I put everything but / and /boot on lvm
22:53:23 <ehird_> AnMaster: overlay mounts
22:53:24 <ais523> and for finding shared libraries
22:53:30 <ehird_> AnMaster: is the reccomended solution for gobolinux
22:53:34 <AnMaster> ehird_, hardlinks still doesn't work that way ;)
22:53:42 <ais523> ehird_: I don't think you can do hardlinks across filesystems is AnMaster's point
22:53:59 * ehird_ writes OS that uses RDF as a filesystem.
22:54:00 <ais523> well, I think you should be able to, that's an FS implementation deficiency rather than anything semantic
22:54:08 <AnMaster> ehird, does gobolinux work with /usr on LVM?
22:54:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I will if I get a computer to try it on
22:54:30 <ehird_> Heh, I'm using binary packages and it's still taking hours to update KDE4.
22:54:37 <ehird_> Mostly because of the myriad dependencies.
22:54:41 <ais523> AnMaster: there's nothing in /System/Links/Executables (which /usr is a symlink to) but symlinks on gobolinux
22:54:51 <ais523> so putting it in a separate filesystem would be kind-of silly
22:54:55 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, and that is an issue
22:55:05 <AnMaster> ais523, since I use read only mounted /
22:55:05 <ehird_> symlinks take up 0 space
22:55:10 <ehird_> just put the actual LINKED files in the right place
22:55:15 <ehird_> security issues lol :D
22:55:29 <ais523> ehird_: actually, one interesting point that gobolinux's explanation page didn't cover is how to simulate a read-only /usr
22:55:37 <ehird_> i really want to see the person AnMaster has in his head attacking his computer
22:55:38 <ais523> /usr is designed so it can be, after all
22:55:41 <ehird_> because he must be really, really clever
22:55:51 <ehird_> and have the fastest supercomputer to crack things
22:55:51 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I mean read-only /usr, that's entirely possible
22:55:55 <ehird_> and is working for the government
22:55:59 <ehird_> WHO DID 9/11 WAKE UP SHEEPLE
22:56:02 <ais523> why do you think /var exists?
22:56:27 <ais523> to do that on gobolinux you'd somehow have to have all the executables on a different filesystem
22:56:58 <AnMaster> ais523, and that is the second downside kind of
22:57:00 <ehird_> ais523: ask #gobolinux.
22:57:04 <ais523> and I don't think even overlay mounts solve that
22:57:13 <ais523> and yes, I will, because I think it would be interesting to have a solution
22:57:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well I will if I plan to install it
22:57:32 <ais523> I'd like to see this solved, rather than point to it and say haha
22:58:40 <ais523> well, make a solution then!
22:58:43 <AnMaster> ais523, also the separate / and /usr doesn't work well
22:58:53 <ais523> on gobolinux or in general?
22:58:54 <ehird_> AnMaster: that's just because you like seeing things other than the solution you use fail
22:59:07 <AnMaster> since / contains the stuff needed to mount the /usr
22:59:08 <ais523> AnMaster: well, exactly, you'd separate / and /Programs instead
22:59:21 <AnMaster> and those would just be symlinks to the /Programs
22:59:29 <ehird_> there is a /System FYI.
22:59:43 <ehird_> ehird@kitten ~]ls /System
22:59:43 <ehird_> Kernel Links Settings Variable
22:59:54 <ehird_> but the kernel, /boot, modules, etc.
23:00:13 <fizzie> Quite a lot of people have a "read-only shared /usr from NFS" setups; I'm sure someone has had time to think about it.
23:00:18 <AnMaster> ehird, needs what other distros call the statically linkd /sbin/lvm
23:00:24 <ais523> AnMaster: gobolinux's answer to that is "it's 2008, have you never heard of a LiveCD?"
23:00:36 <ais523> although, hmm... that's not very good on remote servers I suppose
23:01:05 <ais523> fizzie: I asked in #gobolinux but nobody's answered yet
23:01:07 <AnMaster> ais523, I didn't see that answer in #gobolinux?
23:01:21 <ais523> AnMaster: I was referring to the mount being not on /usr thing
23:01:43 <AnMaster> ais523, well I guess you could do it with a messy initramfs
23:01:45 <ais523> you're right, it makes no sense with respect to the read-only /usr thing
23:01:54 <ehird_> #gobolinux just slowed down XD
23:02:08 <ehird_> AnMaster: iirc, initramfs IS the gobolinux solution to that crap
23:02:24 <ehird_> nothing wrong with that,.
23:02:33 <ehird_> except they seem to call it squashfs
23:02:50 <ehird_> http://squashfs.sourceforge.net/
23:03:20 <AnMaster> it is a compressed read only fs
23:03:46 <ais523> sort of like busybox, but for filesystems?
23:03:57 <AnMaster> ehird, afaik kernel can't use it for initramfs. which is a compressed ext2 image iirc
23:03:58 <ais523> s/install CDs/install floppy disks/
23:04:10 <ais523> because I think it's great being able to put busybox on a floppy disk
23:04:16 <ais523> AnMaster: I IRC too, so does everyone in this channel
23:04:30 <fizzie> There is squashfs initrd support.
23:04:35 <ehird_> The gobolinux installer defaults the filesystem to reiserfs, it was released in 2008-04
23:04:37 <ehird_> that was rather amusing :)
23:04:52 <fizzie> I'm not sure if it's in the mainstream kernel, but it exists.
23:04:57 <ais523> ehird_: I've been waiting several months for an opportunity to make that joke
23:05:07 <ehird_> You know, surely reiser's corporation will carry on maintaining it.
23:05:13 <ehird_> Although I suppose they'll change the name :-P
23:05:25 <ehird_> they might as well call it BabyKillerFS
23:05:45 <ehird_> AnMaster: i am actually using lilo instead of grub
23:05:52 <AnMaster> ehird, also I got some old installs still using reiser, since back in 2004 or so
23:06:13 * ehird_ waits to be asked why lilo, not grub
23:06:30 <AnMaster> ehird, oh isn't that elilo then?
23:06:44 <ehird_> it's lilo with 0 timeout
23:06:49 <AnMaster> Description: Linux boot loader for EFI-based systems such as IA-64
23:06:50 <ehird_> rEFIt, the boot manager thingy
23:06:59 <ehird_> boots it with bios emulation
23:07:10 <ehird_> and so lilo picks it up and boots into linux immediately
23:07:17 <ehird_> grub requires a patch to work with refit, apparently
23:07:46 <ehird_> AnMaster: that's all very nice on paper.
23:08:01 <ehird_> it'd be even nicer if it meant something in practice, but it doesn't, and this is the only sane setup you can get
23:08:16 <ehird_> i don't even know; I know that you can't get 2d accelleration with efi
23:08:26 <ehird_> but i didn't even want to bother trying to coerce it into working
23:08:28 <AnMaster> ehird, what? that made no sense
23:09:13 <fizzie> GRUB 2 should do EFI quite well; at least that's what they've been saying. Not sure if I'd dare to use that thing just yet, though.
23:10:20 <ehird_> Upgrade faster, KDE. :~
23:13:00 <ehird_> no, don't feel any particular inclination to
23:13:04 <AnMaster> hm probably too manual for you
23:13:12 <AnMaster> it is like a binary gentoo in certain ways
23:13:26 <ehird_> and the advantages are....
23:13:38 <ehird_> it doesn't even support i386
23:13:54 <ehird_> i don't see how traditional=good
23:14:02 <AnMaster> ehird, no, it is a matter of taste
23:14:13 <ehird_> or a matter of masochism
23:14:15 <AnMaster> it got a fast package manager ;P
23:14:26 <ehird_> so has gobo; it's called ext3
23:14:28 <fizzie> I'm probably stuck with this Debian, since I happen to like it and know rather well how to use it.
23:14:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well you said KDE took long
23:14:44 <ehird_> AnMaster: that was just the downloading.
23:14:49 <ehird_> and the fact that it has 5000000 dependencies anyway.
23:15:52 <ehird_> Ugh. Stupid CMake and its "you have to build me with myself" fetish.
23:17:15 <AnMaster> oh you mean it bootstraps itself
23:17:36 <ehird_> You just built yourself with autotools, so shut up, you don't have to do it again.
23:17:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it builds a stripped down version
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23:30:07 <ais523> wow, I'm about to miss my train, gtg...
23:38:33 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: what's this i hear about boolean evaluation?
23:38:52 <bsmntbombdood> oerjan: i can't figure out how to do it efficiently
23:39:15 <oerjan> O(n) with respect to what?
23:40:20 <oerjan> could you repeat the problem?
23:40:52 <bsmntbombdood> i have a hash table that maps items to lists of tags
23:41:02 <oerjan> (rephrasing, preferably, as i recall not understanding what you wanted when reading the first time)
23:41:40 <bsmntbombdood> i need to return all the items whose tags make a boolean expression evaluate to true
23:41:42 <oerjan> oh and you want to find all items that have a certain boolean expression in the tags true?
23:43:14 <oerjan> and the expression may vary?
23:44:35 <oerjan> didn't we discuss this once before? possibly without finding a solution
23:44:50 <oerjan> we = someone on this channel, at least
23:46:20 <oerjan> hm isn't it NP-complete just to find out if there _are_ any hits
23:47:31 <oerjan> in the expression size
23:48:00 <oerjan> let's say the items have _all_ possible combinations of tags on/off
23:48:55 <oerjan> then finding the hits requires minimally solving SAT for the expression
23:49:17 <oerjan> which is not essentially easier than brute force search i think
23:49:34 <oerjan> which means O(n) in the hash table size may be optimal for that case
23:50:35 <oerjan> (assuming there is no essentially better SAT solving algorithm, a famous problem indeed)
23:51:08 <oerjan> well they rarely allow arbitrary boolean expressions do they?
23:51:21 <ehird> (NOT A) and B or (NOT C)
23:51:42 <oerjan> well if the expression is much smaller than log of the hashtable size
23:52:29 <oerjan> as it would usually be for a web search i should think :D
23:53:22 <oerjan> i see. so this is essentially how to design part of a search engine...
23:53:22 <fizzie> If your tags are rather rare, you can have just indices for those items where A, B, ... are true, and then you can do "(not A) and B" by taking the set-difference of B true and A true.
23:55:25 <oerjan> i'm sure it would be a good idea to search relevant literature.
23:56:03 <fizzie> That's what your garden-variety search engine does, though; for example postgres's tsearch2. The documents are turned into lists of words, and then it keeps an index which tells you which documents contain what words.
23:56:19 <oerjan> if there is no obvious solution, but google is obviously doing it, then there are probably research articles and/or patents
23:56:49 <fizzie> I've had someone from Google explain their general architecture to me (as a visiting lecturer), but I've mostly forgotten it.
23:57:59 <oerjan> i would expect them to start with the frequency of each word and then generate a search strategy based on starting with the rarest words
23:58:21 <oerjan> perhaps even indexing pairs of words
23:59:13 <oerjan> s/i would expect them/my first idea to do such a thing would be/
00:00:19 <oerjan> google throws away _very_ common words for one thing, perhaps it makes this too hard to do
00:00:44 <oerjan> um wait maybe it doesn't
00:01:18 <oerjan> maybe they did before. "the" worked fine now :D
00:01:34 <fizzie> It used to, at least in some point of data, but that changed.
00:01:56 <oerjan> hey, i tried "the or and"
00:02:06 <fizzie> Still, information retrieval is a field which has had a huge amount of published papers.
00:02:08 <oerjan> and interestingly enough, one link was this:
00:02:21 <oerjan> http://lib.colostate.edu/tutorials/boolean.html
00:03:15 <fizzie> That's about "searching efficiently" in the sense of getting good results, not in the sense of implementing the search.
00:03:40 <oerjan> (also google guide showed up)
00:03:58 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: you cannot show it?
00:04:39 <fizzie> But a plain old-fashioned inverted index is the most basic thing used for search-engine-like things. I'm sure there are hueeg improvements to it.
00:04:49 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: well i have norwegian language setting but i don't really see why that should make you lose it entirely
00:05:26 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: it was the last link on the first page for me
00:05:54 <fizzie> Still, if you have 10^9 items but the tags A and B appear in 10 items each, it's obviously better to just take the intersection of A's and B's rows (which are sets of 10 elements) of the inverted index, instead of iterating through all the 10^9 elements.
00:06:15 <oerjan> i'd have expected you to get it _higher_ up, since you would have no norwegian hits before it, and it is in english...
00:06:33 <bsmntbombdood> fizzie: but in reality you have 10^9 items where tags A and B appear 10^6 times
00:07:30 <fizzie> Well, that's still only around 10^6 operations to do instead of 10^9.
00:12:07 <oerjan> lessee google often guesses _wrong_ how many hits there are until you actually look at the last hits page
00:12:42 <oerjan> this means it may actually calculate things lazily, doing only the minimal work to create the pages you view
00:12:49 <fizzie> Only thing I remember from the Google example is that their huge-ass index is divided into shards hosted by gazillion servers; so you can do those "search for this bit" and "search for that bit" operations in parallel.
00:13:14 <fizzie> I really don't know how google does their fast approximations, though, given how it needs to get highly-pageranked results first.
00:13:33 <fizzie> http://labs.google.com/papers/googlecluster-ieee.pdf is mostly about the hardware but also a bit about the software.
00:14:53 <fizzie> And of course you could easily spend an interesting week reading random papers from the few-hundred-item http://research.google.com/pubs/papers.html list.
00:16:37 <oerjan> "On average, a single query on Google reads
00:16:37 <oerjan> hundreds of megabytes of data and consumes
00:16:39 <oerjan> tens of billions of CPU cycles."
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00:41:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | the first version would need to be floppy based for increased pain.
00:59:25 <bsmntbombdood> BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
01:01:33 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+++[.]
01:01:33 <fungot> CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC ...
01:04:15 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.hulu.com/watch/1404/saturday-night-live-snl-digital-short-natalie-raps
01:08:53 <oerjan> http://www.ams.org/mathscinet/collaborationDistance.html
01:10:42 <oerjan> alas there is no separate URL for the result, that i can see
01:13:03 <oerjan> alas, as i haven't been in any films
01:13:54 <bsmntbombdood> you're not the most gorgeous creature to walk the earth ither
01:14:34 <oerjan> especially not with this damn rash
01:30:09 <warrie> I want an Erdos number.
01:31:46 <warrie> I want an Erdos number of omega + 1.
01:31:50 <Slereah> I wonder if I have a Bacon number.
01:31:56 <warrie> Or, you know, a finite one.
01:32:09 <Slereah> Depends on your definition!
01:32:41 <oerjan> the question is, what definition would Erdos use?
01:33:00 <warrie> I think my Erdos number is actually the class of all ordinal numbers.
01:33:10 <Slereah> There's an easy way to have a good erdos number.
01:33:22 <Slereah> Time travel, hook up Erdos' dad with your mom.
01:33:46 <warrie> Interview someone with a low Erdos number.
01:34:12 <Slereah> Only if you both sign a piece of paper!
01:34:30 <Slereah> Ask him to help you with your math homework
01:35:39 <warrie> Honestly, it's likely that I will never need help with my math homework.
01:36:36 <Slereah> I wonder if one of my professors has an Erdos number.
01:36:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:36:51 <warrie> I wonder how many of us fall under the "will never need help with math homework" category.
01:37:25 <oerjan> misinterpret your math homework in some horribly convoluted way and get a collaborator to make a paper out of it
01:37:26 <Slereah> The ones of us who have no math in their education
01:37:47 * Sgeo comes close to falling in that category
01:38:08 <warrie> Not having math homework doesn't count, Sgeo.
01:38:12 <Slereah> What do you do fo' school?
01:38:12 <Sgeo> I think I needed help once
01:40:17 <warrie> You know, I just remembered that homework in my math class is optional.
01:43:42 <warrie> Now I wonder just how smart we all are.
01:45:07 <warrie> Dumb as in "in the bottom half of the top 30 out of 600"?
01:46:25 <warrie> It wouldn't be rude of me to just tell you how smart I am, would it.
01:47:16 <Slereah> Tell us how smart you are, warrie
01:47:30 <Slereah> Does the answer involve pigs and lipstick?
01:48:54 <oerjan> that somehow seems more relevant to bacon numbers than erdos numbers
01:49:48 <Slereah> I wonder if I have a Bacon number.
01:49:51 * oerjan now wonders how many pigs with lipsticks have bacon numbers
01:49:56 <warrie> No, only being precisely tied with one other person for smartest in my class (about 600 high-schoolers), as best I can tell.
01:50:35 <warrie> It's annoying that I don't know whether I'm smarter than the other guy or vice versa.
01:51:26 <Slereah> Does it give you a boner to be smart
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01:51:39 <Corun> I felt a bit esoteric
01:51:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:51:46 <Corun> http://rafb.net/p/4y7yOA86.html
01:52:08 <warrie> I also wonder whether it's a coincidence that he and I both have two brothers and no sisters, and I am disappointed that his brothers are both very smart and mine are not.
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01:53:32 <Sgeo> What did I miss, if anything?
01:53:32 <warrie> If it's not self-modifying times a constant, it... is sub-optimal.
01:53:42 <oerjan> my brothers were so smart they didn't even get born
01:53:57 <warrie> Maybe that's what happened to all my and his sisters.
01:54:10 <warrie> Sgeo: what's the last thing you saw?
01:54:24 <Slereah> They were born as energy being
01:54:30 <warrie> You missed Corun's AI and perhaps other things: http://rafb.net/p/4y7yOA86.html
01:54:32 <Sgeo> * GreaseMonkey (n=saru@unaffiliated/greasemonkey) has joined #esoteric
01:54:36 <Slereah> You're only smart because of me.
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01:55:06 <Sgeo> What does it do?
01:55:24 <Corun> It's a conversational AI
01:55:30 <oerjan> Sgeo: IT'S SMART DUMBASS
01:55:57 * warrie attempts to compile it
01:56:04 <Slereah> But what does it talk about?
01:56:12 <oerjan> Corun: Whatever you do, don't tell it to make paperclips
01:56:57 * Sgeo doesn't see any wordlists or anything..
01:57:20 <Slereah> It's so smart that it can LEARN TO TALK
01:57:35 <Corun> I told it not to make paperclips
01:57:41 <Corun> And it responded with "UU$>'SV,TT'<qT)4R,'\<AG"
01:58:01 <warrie> Mmh. How do I compile it, I wonder.
01:58:13 <Corun> gcc -std=c99 tehfile.c
01:58:19 <Corun> gcc -std=c99 -lpthread tehfile.c
01:58:25 <Corun> Depends on your system really :-)
01:58:28 -!- Slereah has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | UU$>'SV,TT'<qT)4R,'\<AG.
01:58:38 * warrie goes with gcc -std=c99 -lpthread ai.c
01:58:44 <Sgeo> ..there's no "strip line numbers" link
01:58:46 <GregorR> gcc -std=c99 -pthread -vomit-frame-pointer -fuck-the-damned-loops foo.c
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01:59:00 <Sgeo> ..and selecting makes it work..
01:59:07 <warrie> ai.c:54: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function 'malloc'
01:59:11 -!- z8000_ has left (?).
01:59:12 <oerjan> -vomit-frame-pointer is really something
01:59:25 <GregorR> oerjan: It's -___f___omit-frame-pointer :P
01:59:57 <Corun> What do you think?
02:00:26 <oerjan> i think it's a joke, obviously
02:00:39 <warrie> It's outputting longer and longer nonsense.
02:00:58 <Sgeo> It's not responding, and my system's slowing down
02:01:01 <Corun> It's not exactly perfect
02:01:06 <Corun> I'd suggest not running it for too long
02:01:07 <Slereah> It's an AI, but it doesn't talk your language, warrie
02:01:10 <Corun> Uses up a lot of cpu
02:01:24 <Sgeo> I can't seem to make it respond
02:01:25 <oerjan> it's more the infinite number of monkey type, i take
02:01:28 <Corun> I'd suggest killing it
02:01:40 <Corun> You on a crappy OS Sgeo?
02:01:40 <warrie> I'm not running it on my system, so I can use up as much CPU time as I want.
02:01:51 <Sgeo> Corun, is Ubuntu 7.04 crappy?
02:01:57 <warrie> (Disclaimer: I rent the system, but that doesn't make it mine.)
02:02:03 <Sgeo> sgeo@ubuntu:~/c$ ./someai
02:02:16 <Corun> If it can't handle a process trying to fully utilize the cpu with 11 threads, yes :-P
02:02:29 <Sgeo> I did get a lot of errors, if that has anything to do with anything
02:02:32 <warrie> Corun, was this supposed to do something?
02:02:54 <Corun> You didn't seriously expect a 71 line of code "AI" to do something, did you?
02:03:12 * Sgeo expected it might have at least repeated what was put into it
02:03:18 <warrie> Surely you can implement a neural net in that space.
02:03:26 <Corun> It might be a neural net
02:03:35 <Corun> I'm not really sure
02:03:42 <Corun> It just kinda does stuff with numbers in an array
02:03:46 <warrie> After putting "aaaa" into it many times, it seems to be giving me especially many aaaas.
02:04:07 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/noyoucanthaveaneuralnetwork.jpg
02:04:16 <Corun> Hah, you're right warrie
02:04:42 <Corun> It does actually do like, some stuff
02:05:07 <warrie> Outputs stuff like this: k;:9w999877jwj7hvqk76w55543jiiuk3guk3hg333g22f1gevpgf11vow00////wwwwvtrtqkwwwwwwwwvwuwuvwtqkwwwwwvvvuvwuvwuwwwwwwuwwwvvvuwuvbtuututttttswvwvwvwutwwvwwvwwvvusvtr
02:05:27 * warrie tries yes Wolfram Blitzen | ./a.out
02:05:48 <warrie> It's really stupid. :-)
02:06:11 <warrie> Not-very-representative sample: V\Le@\hWTUCflkXWTTTTTSV[WTSVV[[Bldti\ mBkXlthBekWWSSWlfj mBjlfi\leVZi[BfnnmAKaa`_l; l lheBVeVYYeVYeWUCoal_:XdmAJnAm@[aJld`_:lWoheUCcBCdeUC*eUCallmk?ZVYrelojBljr
02:06:12 <Corun> I think it's too chaotic
02:06:27 <Corun> It does just randomly mutate "brain"
02:06:30 <Corun> Every, uhh, iteration
02:06:37 <Corun> Of each of the 11 threads
02:07:18 <Corun> I challenge any of you to make a cleverer AI in less lines of code!
02:08:08 <Corun> And it can't just echo
02:08:11 <Slereah> Corun : what about a program that repeats what you said, but replaces all vowels with o?
02:08:29 <Corun> It has to atleast do something vaguelly AI like
02:08:32 <Slereah> And would simulate perfectly a /b/tard
02:08:47 <Slereah> Does your thing do something AI-like?
02:08:50 <oerjan> ah, artificial stupidity
02:09:03 <Sgeo> Corun, what, you mean like a maze solver?
02:09:19 <Sgeo> Or some other game opponent? Because I know that's not the sort of AI you mean
02:09:30 <Corun> You've lost me :-P
02:09:36 <warrie> AI is really easy to implement, and will continue to be really easy to implement until I actually try to implement it.
02:09:39 <Corun> Make a conversational AI in < 71 lines of C
02:09:43 <Slereah> Artifical stupidity is easy to do.
02:09:48 <Slereah> ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
02:09:49 <Sgeo> Corun, meh at "conversational"
02:10:02 <Corun> Which is _better_ than this one. But isn't just echo or some other take on echo.
02:10:25 * Sgeo doesn't know C well enough, can I write one in python and have someone translate it to C?
02:10:34 <Corun> Write on in python
02:10:38 <Corun> In less than 50 lines
02:10:43 <Corun> Cos that's. like, equivalent
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02:11:15 <Slereah> But... Python has indentation!
02:11:16 <Sgeo> Hm, this is worse than "a take on echo" though..
02:11:24 <Slereah> With C, you can do everything in one line
02:11:39 <Corun> Oh stop nitpickin'
02:11:46 <Corun> All I'm hearing are excuses :-P
02:12:15 * Corun goes to make his one better
02:12:44 <Slereah> It's important for a conversational AI
02:13:52 <Slereah> Maybe it should answer "I AM A CONVERSATIONAL AI BEEP BOOP" for every input
02:14:56 <Sgeo> 6 lines of an AI that's WORSE than an echo: http://rafb.net/p/XKfd7922.html
02:16:24 * Sgeo was going to make it randomly answer "Yes." or "No." but that fails with non yes/no questions
02:17:43 <Corun> I don't think 71 lines is enough
02:18:04 <Slereah> Sgeo : You could make it answer yes or no with sentences beginning with is/are/have/has
02:21:32 * Sgeo will make it do that and "do" too
02:21:46 <Sgeo> ^^intentionally interpretable dirtily
02:24:40 <Sgeo> Are you alive?
02:25:00 * Sgeo is suprised at the fact that it answered the questions in a consistant manner
02:25:03 <Slereah> It's way better than Corun!
02:25:23 <Slereah> Ask him if he wants ice cream
02:26:21 <Corun> After all, my prowess is gone
02:26:25 <Corun> I have no reason to stay
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02:27:01 <Sgeo> http://rafb.net/p/7ZMDyW92.html
02:27:35 <Slereah> Maybe you should also make a special answer for "Who are you?"
02:27:47 <Slereah> That would involve a lot of BEEP BOOP
02:28:43 <Sgeo> really really?
02:30:49 <Sgeo> Me, or the AI?
02:31:37 <Sgeo> I am an all-powerful God-Human. You are a rather lame AI
02:32:57 <Slereah> Idea : An AI that only answers "AFK"
02:33:01 <Sgeo> http://rafb.net/p/jZ5V8k65.html
02:33:28 <Slereah> Sgeo : That doesn't seem to good
02:33:41 <Slereah> Like "Who's Julius Caesar?"
02:34:01 <Sgeo> Actually, it would say "I don't know." because of the 's
02:34:17 <jayCampbell> post-clinton, the "'s" is also indeterminate
02:35:38 <Sgeo> http://rafb.net/p/zk6haK59.html
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02:43:57 <Sgeo> Corun, want me to msg you what you missed?
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03:30:28 <Sgeo> Slereah_, what's wrong?
03:31:34 <Slereah_> But I've got to say, it looks good and didn't age.
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07:20:01 <psygnisfive> what languages do full propositional logic?
07:40:14 <psygnisfive> and other kinds of normal propositional logic + set theory kind of stuff
07:41:22 <psygnisfive> they're just not as easy to code as prolog because of the craziness of logic
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09:13:56 <psygnisfive> universal quantifier on x, existential on y
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09:16:51 <fizzie> $\forall x \exists y$, in LaTeX-speak.
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09:18:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok that looks the same, and doesn't explain it at all
09:19:05 <AnMaster> I guess I just lack the knowledge
09:23:13 <fizzie> The only "real logic" tool I've personally used is Otter -- http://www-unix.mcs.anl.gov/AR/otter/ -- but that's for theorem-proving, not really programming.
09:28:40 <fungot> .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
09:28:46 <fungot> AnMaster: hit the road, that works only if you ask me.
09:31:58 <fungot> fizzie: create function adder(a int(10), b int(10)) returns t
09:34:53 <AnMaster> interesting, gcc optimises the main switch block used for the core instructions in cfunge the same way even if I swap the order of the entries at -O2 and higher
09:35:06 <AnMaster> at -O1 and -O0 it generates different code
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12:41:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hi.
12:41:53 <optbot> oerjan: I was, obviously, thinking of something completely different.
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13:24:20 <ehird_gobo> I am using konqueror from kde4 ... in twm :S
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13:38:15 <oklopol> psygnisfive: do you mean predicate logic? you can build sets from within it, so.
13:41:49 <oklopol> maybe i should make noprob++ at some point, noprob + predicate logic.
13:41:54 <oklopol> that would be... confusing.
13:42:12 <oerjan> propositional logic is the _easy_ part. it is merely NP-complete, nothing worse. ;D
13:42:58 <oklopol> isn't first order predicate calculus too?
13:43:32 <oklopol> definitely not, at least pspace
13:43:41 <oklopol> but i mean it's not semidecidable!
13:44:17 <oerjan> and set theory has the full force of godel incompleteness
13:45:24 <oerjan> i don't quite recall but i think predicate calculus must be undecidable too
13:45:38 <oklopol> well. i don't know much about this. i just thought resolution was a complete search procedure for first order PC.
13:46:06 <oklopol> second-order is, that's for sure.
13:46:25 <oklopol> you need induction to get *numbers*... "tc"
13:46:42 <oklopol> but, as you can clearly see, going by intuition here, so :P
13:46:59 <oklopol> and induction needs 2nd order pc, naturally
13:47:03 <oerjan> can't you encode combinator calculus in predicate calculus?
13:47:14 <oerjan> it's just equations, after all
13:47:24 <oerjan> so it _must_ be undecidable
13:48:09 <oerjan> a complete search procedure may only find what's provable, after all, not everything needs to be decidable
13:48:15 <oklopol> yeah i guess you're right, can't stress enough that i don't know absolutely anything.
13:48:37 <oklopol> by completeness i meant it's complete both ways.
13:50:16 <oerjan> for all x,y,z : S x y z = x z (y z) and K x y = x
13:50:55 <oerjan> just predicate logic with functions. and functions can be recoded into relations.
13:51:44 <oklopol> yes that sounds about right
13:53:02 <oklopol> :oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
13:53:30 <oklopol> i don't like the way pc does functions
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14:21:47 <AnMaster> by the way, just wondering, how long have you been using gobolinux?
14:22:11 <ehird_> since yesterday. i fucked up kde because i'm a retard.
14:22:17 <ehird_> so i'm talking to you via the console about to set it compiling.
14:23:14 <AnMaster> ehird, do you still like gobolinux? :)
14:23:27 <ehird_> yes. and i still hate X.
14:23:48 <AnMaster> oh yes I can see what you mean, but doesn't xorg support auto detection these days?
14:24:23 <ehird_> Well, yeah, except it fails at getting my scrollwheel to work.
14:24:37 <AnMaster> Oh and: no I don't/won't use it, since as you pointed out I prefer the old way
14:24:38 <ehird_> Also, technically messing up KDE was my fault, but i'm blaming it on KDE.
14:24:44 <AnMaster> but it should be the way you prefer :)
14:24:57 <ehird_> Because I hate X, anyway, so KDE might as well get some of the anger.
14:25:14 <AnMaster> ehird, what did you do to poor KDE?
14:25:39 <ehird_> I installed a binary package of 4.0.something which is apparently unstable and nobody actually knows where that binary came from, I should have checked up before doing that
14:25:46 <ehird_> So I get Konqueror running in TWM.
14:26:01 <ehird_> I'm compiling it in 3..2...1
14:26:18 <AnMaster> and yes 4.0, don't you know where you got it youself?
14:26:58 <ehird_> I should have checked what KDE version was stable, what binary packages hadn't magically appeared due to faeries, etc.
14:27:15 <AnMaster> ah right. Well we all make mistakes from time to time.
14:27:22 <ehird_> So now I get to wait for it to compile the whole of KDE!
14:27:24 <AnMaster> are there no binary packages of 4.1 or whatever is the last one?
14:27:27 <ehird_> Woo! That certainly won't take hours!
14:27:34 <ehird_> AnMaster: Apparently not. I could make one, I guess.
14:27:51 <ehird_> AnMaster: Intel Core 2 Duo @2.17ghz (iirc), 1GB of RAM
14:27:57 <ehird_> and the rest should be wholly irrelevant to compiling :P
14:28:16 <AnMaster> compiling KDE 3.5 here on a 2 GHz Sempron takes around 5 hours in total for kdelibs, kdebase, kdesdk and parts of the other packages
14:28:25 <AnMaster> so it should be faster for you
14:28:41 <AnMaster> ehird, well this is a single core sempron
14:28:58 <AnMaster> I bet your cpu is quite a bit better
14:29:03 <ehird_> Eh, I have irssi and w3m. I'll be fine.
14:29:08 <ehird_> I could do with an IM client, though.
14:29:15 <AnMaster> there is w3m-mode for emacs btw
14:29:27 <ehird_> There's also a window manager for xemacs.
14:29:43 <ehird_> Grr, w3m needs to let me set an artificial width for page rendering.
14:29:45 <AnMaster> I'm probably moving to awesomwm rather than KDE4
14:29:59 <ehird_> Tiny fonts + 21" widescreen = awful reading experience.
14:30:13 <ehird_> Also, the GoboLinux console font is a bit ugly.
14:30:32 <ehird_> The console is preferable to twm, AnMaster.
14:31:15 <AnMaster> if yes links -g could work okish
14:31:35 <ehird_> Framebuffer, I assume, since w3m is rendering images.
14:31:40 <ehird_> And I don't have links :p
14:31:56 <ehird_> I'm not installing it, I don't know if Compile would barf if I run two instances at once.
14:32:22 <AnMaster> Gentoo Portage handles multiple instances fine
14:32:40 <ehird_> Compile probably does too, but I'm allowed to be careful when I'm donating hours and hours to compile KDE>
14:32:44 <AnMaster> (it uses lock files for when it is merging from the fake install root to the actual real file system)
14:33:37 <AnMaster> and yes I would be careful too. I certainly was until I found out gentoo handles it just fine
14:33:45 <ehird_> I wonder if the Linux kernel devs would accept my hypothetical patch to allow proportional fonts on the console. :P
14:34:09 <ehird_> Although if they would they might as well accept my other patch, "rm -rf console; ln -s X11 console"
14:34:36 <AnMaster> most likely not. IIRC the "non-graphic" OS X mode (use odd key combo I forgot) is monospace iirc
14:35:00 <AnMaster> also ever looked at ls output in a non-monospace font?
14:35:19 <AnMaster> Very often the output is very hard to read
14:35:25 <ehird_> Well, that's why it'd be optional.
14:35:29 <AnMaster> since almost all programs are coded for monospace
14:35:34 <ehird_> proportional; w3m; proportional off
14:35:45 <ehird_> Better idea: rm -rf console; ln -s X11 console
14:35:57 <AnMaster> ehird_, still, RTC: Rich Text Console
14:35:57 <ehird_> rm -rf X11; ln -s /OSX/Quartz X11
14:36:25 <AnMaster> since everyone would need to buy their stuff to get that
14:37:24 <ehird_> Ok, Qt doesn't want to compile.
14:37:38 <ehird_> How come all my linux usage ends up being stereotypical to the max? :-P
14:37:47 <ehird_> AnMaster: It thinks the compiler isn't supported.
14:37:50 <AnMaster> ehird, um I don't have such problems on gentoo
14:37:54 <ehird_> //Long/Path/Here/linux-g++
14:38:01 <ehird_> AnMaster: I'm just unlucky
14:38:12 <AnMaster> "checking if compiler is GCC"?
14:38:13 <ehird_> "Compiler not supported, read the qt readme you moron"
14:38:32 <AnMaster> report a bug to gobolinux I guess
14:38:38 <ehird_> Well, I've asked in #gobolinux.
14:38:42 <ehird_> I could use a Qt binary pkg.
14:39:07 <AnMaster> and if you have several installed, is QT using the right one?
14:39:10 <ehird_> 4.1.2. I'm going to mass-upgrade the distribution overnight; so it's a bit old.
14:40:15 <ehird_> Trying to install 4.4.x, the binary package is 4.3.x.
14:40:25 <ehird_> Qt takes ages to compile, I know this... so I'm leaning to the binary package
14:41:14 * ehird_ wonders how the UK's national id card scheme is getting along. Freeeeeeedommmmmmmm
14:41:23 <AnMaster> well yes qt 4 is really slow to compile
14:42:32 <ehird_> The compiled Qt is SEVENTY SEVEN MEGABYTES
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14:44:36 <ehird_> Downloading @ 800KB/sec, though.
14:44:39 <AnMaster> ehird, which is why I'm going to leave KDE after my distro declares 3.5.x as end of life
14:45:44 <ehird_> AnMaster: I know about awesomewm.
14:45:49 <ehird_> But KDE4 looks really nice.
14:46:02 <ehird_> It seems to fix everything I didn't like about KDE, although that's probably everything you liked.
14:46:15 <AnMaster> ehird, well I expect you to complain at least twice about how it is just a bad copy of the special effects in OS X ;P
14:46:27 <ehird_> No, that's Beryl/Compiz/whatever it's called now.
14:46:56 <ehird_> Ah. The binary Qt is too old.
14:47:38 * ehird_ considers patch to w3m to run flash.
14:47:43 <ehird_> YOUTUBE ON THE CONSOLE
14:49:05 <AnMaster> ehird, how well would you say gobolinux handles dependencies between packages?
14:49:21 <ehird_> Perfectly; I haven't seen any problems so far.
14:49:28 <ehird_> It just has a list of dependencies/versions and recursively calls itself for them.
14:50:03 <AnMaster> I have bad experience with for example debian when it comes to that, issues figuring out exactly what version is needed and so on
14:50:29 <AnMaster> (oh and portage handles it perfectly too)
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14:50:53 <ehird_> Debian do their best shot; it's just a problem because they have such a comprehensive package base
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14:51:20 <AnMaster> and yum sucked when I last tried, it was a few years ago, no idea how it is these days
14:51:36 <ehird_> But Debian is too steeped in the past, anyway; RPM/APT are pretty much the worst packaging systems that anyone actually uses today :-P
14:51:40 <ehird_> Apart from Cygwin's package manager. That is awful.
14:52:02 <AnMaster> if that is what you want really then Arch Linux should be quite interesting for you. For example on Arch Linux GCC 4.3.2 hit stable about 4 days after upstream released it
14:52:05 <ehird_> But if a program's been out for, say, 5 months, I expect it to be in.
14:52:12 <ehird_> So: Up-to-date, but not bleeding-edge alphas.
14:52:18 <AnMaster> usually kernel takes a week or two
14:52:58 <AnMaster> oh and not alphas, but I mean fast getting packages into the stable version
14:52:58 <ehird_> Yeah, that's a bit too bleeding-edge for my tastes.
14:53:13 <ehird_> However, a system which is constantly updated to the very bleeding edge would be ... interesting ...
14:53:40 <AnMaster> ehird, ah then you would like the other end of arch linux. libcap is on version 1.10 or so iirc. But all other distros are around 2.11
14:53:47 <AnMaster> I guess a lazy package maintainer
14:53:58 <AnMaster> oh and libcap 1.x is for 2.4 kernels
14:54:04 <ehird_> macports is pretty good in my experience
14:54:14 <ehird_> their maintainers keep spontaneously disappearing, though.
14:54:19 <AnMaster> hm gobolinux is rolling release right=
14:54:32 <ehird_> You mean, constantly updated
14:54:37 <ehird_> with a snapshot as a release?
14:54:41 <AnMaster> as in you don't need to wait for a new release to get anything but bugfixes
14:54:50 <AnMaster> and releases are just snapshots for easy install yeah
14:55:00 <AnMaster> right that is a MAJOR requirement for me
14:55:02 <ehird_> Any other kind of distro is just paranoia
14:55:11 <ehird_> "but what if it breaks?" Test it, stupid.
14:55:12 <AnMaster> rolling release are the only maintainable ones
14:55:22 <AnMaster> because on them upgrading is easy
14:55:27 <ehird_> I run Ubuntu on eso-std.org, though.
14:55:48 <AnMaster> while for example ubuntu and such in my experience tends to be a bit of a pain to upgrade to a new release
14:55:53 <ehird_> Because I'd rather have it certain to be stable and reliably-the-same than be on the cutting edge with it
14:55:57 <AnMaster> at least on a running remote system
14:56:12 <AnMaster> though i have done remote freebsd upgrades a few times
14:56:24 <AnMaster> but yes rolling release makes it all much simpler
14:56:27 <ehird_> You can actually run any distro on Slicehost as long as it works with the kernel they have (They give you a list of distros, due to their Xen setup, so they can auto setup them)
14:56:40 <ehird_> You have to install it into a chroot, then methodically rip out the current system and put the stuff from the chroot in.
14:56:43 <ehird_> Then reboot and hope it still runs.
14:56:47 <AnMaster> arch linux, gentoo linux, and (as you said) gobolinux are all rolling release
14:56:57 <ehird_> i'm not crazy enough to try, though
14:57:39 <AnMaster> I heard of a nice way to do that for hosting only installing certain distros on dedis
14:57:50 <AnMaster> you could ask them for specific partitioning scheme
14:58:10 <ehird_> the cool thing is, slicehost actually unofficially endorse the crazy method
14:58:13 <AnMaster> so the person who told me about this asked them to put an 1 GB partition at the end of the disk with debian, and have the rest as home
14:58:22 <AnMaster> then he reversed it installing gentoo on the big one
14:58:26 <ehird_> i'd have expected them to put huge THIS WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY or sth on it
14:58:31 <AnMaster> and converting the last GB to swap
14:58:45 <AnMaster> and no I wouldn't use gentoo on a server
14:59:27 <ehird_> Xen doesn't work very well with BSD right now, unfortunately
14:59:43 <ehird_> Because it has some neato stuff.
14:59:57 <ehird_> Yeah. Freezing processes to disk, then restarting them from that
15:00:12 <ehird_> A replacement to "chroot-as-secure-hole", jails
15:00:16 <AnMaster> hm useful for debugging and for a laptop user
15:00:28 <AnMaster> it was freebsd that invented them
15:00:35 <ehird_> AnMaster: I believe they stole that from dragonfly, actually
15:00:41 <ehird_> or at least, dragonfly has a variation on them
15:00:50 <ehird_> but i know that dragonfly's is different :-P
15:01:10 <ehird_> Out of the "conventional" BSDs, i'd use netbsd.
15:01:23 <AnMaster> "DragonFly BSD is a free Unix-like operating system created as a fork of FreeBSD 4.8"
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15:01:34 <ehird_> One of the lead devs of FreeBSD forked i t.
15:02:09 <ehird_> glibc = slow ass-compile.
15:02:10 <AnMaster> in fact I think freebsd based it on an idea from solaris
15:02:22 * AnMaster tries to find where he read that
15:02:30 <ehird_> solaris seems to have all the neat stuff
15:02:34 <ehird_> that trace thing, that xfs thing, etc
15:02:44 <AnMaster> "The jail(8) utility and jail(2) system call first appeared in FreeBSD 4.0."
15:02:50 <AnMaster> well that predates 4.8 at least
15:05:21 <AnMaster> 4.0-RELEASE appeared in March 2000 and the last 4-STABLE branch release was 4.11 in January 2005. FreeBSD 4 was a favorite operating system for ISPs and web provider during the first .com bubble, and is widely regarded as one of the most stable and high performance operating systems of the whole Unix lineage.
15:05:34 <AnMaster> wikipedia claims solaris containers showed up in 2005
15:08:27 <ehird_> I saw a Linux distro a while ago written by a guy who uses it as his main OS; it was the Linux kernel but with a BSD userspace instead of GNU
15:08:39 <ehird_> It looked very neat, it was called heretix iirc
15:08:52 <AnMaster> hm I heard of a few similar things before
15:09:04 <AnMaster> some just for seeing "is it possible" and some serious
15:09:27 <ehird_> It had an incredibly spaced apart release, iirc from 2000-2008 fit in about 7 lines, one per release.
15:09:41 <ehird_> So less than 1 release a year, he seemed to just develop it when he ran into issues with it personally.
15:10:10 <ehird_> There also seemed to be a gap 2003-2005, iirc, with no releases.
15:10:44 <AnMaster> http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=heretix <--?
15:12:54 <ehird_> AnMaster: mastodon.biz
15:13:11 <ehird_> heh, the newest release is 7 years old
15:13:15 <ehird_> guess i underestimated
15:13:35 <AnMaster> "roll to one of the super-bloated newer Linux kernels or write my own USB stack plus SATA and UDMA drivers for 2.0.28"?
15:13:59 <ehird_> I like how he doesn't use ELF or glibc, it's a kind of radical because-I-canism that often leads to good things.
15:14:00 <AnMaster> ehird, well clearly he is way worse than me when it comes to disliking new technology
15:14:26 <ehird_> AnMaster: Not really, I've used some of his other software projects...
15:14:30 <ehird_> He just seems very opinionated.
15:14:43 <AnMaster> where does it say he doesn't use ELF?
15:14:50 <ehird_> AnMaster: the part where it says it's completely a.out
15:15:11 <ehird_> just the systems programs, apparently
15:15:12 <AnMaster> oh well he got issues then, the Linux kernel is planning to drop a.out support soon iirc
15:15:15 <ehird_> So I guess you can _build_ programs as ELF
15:15:36 <ehird_> AnMaster: iirc, he maintained a set of patches to update the old unix libc so it still worked on modern systems
15:15:43 <ehird_> I doubt he'd have problems with porting it across all the time :-P
15:15:46 <AnMaster> clearly not an issue for him then yeah
15:16:06 <ehird_> I should try Linux From Scratch sometime.
15:16:40 <ehird_> wtf, apparently I need a kernel update for gcc.
15:16:56 <ehird_> AnMaster: how long does it take to compile the kernel
15:17:37 <AnMaster> ehird, hm well I do a manual kernel, a standard kernel would have to include more modules to support different hardware and such
15:17:49 <AnMaster> but for me, about 15-20 minutes
15:18:06 <ehird_> The best thing is, Gobolinux lets you just skip a dependency.
15:18:11 <ehird_> So I'm gonan do that and hope for the best.
15:18:18 <AnMaster> ehird, what kernel version do you have now?
15:19:01 * AnMaster tries to think what on earth got added after that which would be needed for gcc
15:19:10 <ehird_> Perhaps i should learn some nice assembly, like ppc assembly, and write something like colorforth in 100 lines.
15:19:18 <ehird_> Then write a TCP stack in 50 lines of the crazy language I make
15:19:19 <AnMaster> is it a direct dependency of gcc?
15:19:22 <ehird_> Then a web browser in 300 lines
15:19:31 <AnMaster> or a dependency of for example linux-headers
15:19:36 <AnMaster> which would be needed for glibc
15:20:00 <AnMaster> because if you got newer kernel headers in /usr/include that you have kernel you could potentially run into issues
15:20:11 <AnMaster> if it tries to use a newer feature than exists on the current kernel
15:20:38 <AnMaster> so if glibc is going to be compiled I would definitely update kernel first
15:20:56 <AnMaster> and compare the linux headers version with the kernel version
15:21:18 <AnMaster> but other than that it should work fine to wait with kernel upgrade I guess
15:21:34 <AnMaster> (I Am Not A Toolchain Maintainer)
15:21:52 <oklopol> i don't know about you but my nick is oklopol
15:21:55 <AnMaster> so insert clause of no liability and so on
15:23:09 <AnMaster> well yes it will bootstrap itself
15:23:12 <ehird_> FREE HOT GCC SELF-PLEASURE ACTION
15:26:15 <AnMaster> ehird, also doesn't gobolinux provide binary packages for last gcc and so on?
15:26:37 <ehird_> So, um, not exactly ancient, but Qt sucks ass, apparently.
15:26:40 <AnMaster> err 4.3 is last, well 4.3.2 is
15:27:02 <AnMaster> ehird, or the actual issue is something else
15:27:49 <AnMaster> however one good thing: Once you got all the stuff set up, you can usually run the upgrades in one terminal and do something else while it compiles
15:28:15 <AnMaster> since your is dual core (right?) it would hardly even be noticeable on responsiveness
15:28:22 <AnMaster> heck I don't notice it on a single core system
15:29:11 <ehird_> I'm going to run the mass-upgrade overnight.
15:39:08 <AnMaster> ehird, likely the cause is something else
15:39:29 <AnMaster> if it uses autotools there would be config.log iirc
15:39:34 <AnMaster> My implementation of John Gruber’s Markdown markup language. This implementation is written in C, so I can use it without having to install a modern vanity language."
15:40:01 <ehird_> Yes, he seems to dislike most non-C, non-shell languges.
15:40:04 <AnMaster> "Markdown requires Perl 5.6.0 or later. Welcome to the 21st Century. Markdown also requires the standard Perl library module Digest::MD5, which is probably already installed on your server."
15:40:15 <AnMaster> perl is a "modern vanity language"
15:40:26 <ehird_> his weblog software is written in C
15:40:30 <AnMaster> I would never think if it like that
15:40:32 <ehird_> Why anyone would write a CGI in C I don't know, but :D
15:40:47 <ehird_> AnMaster: Well, he said that his latest distro release was "not that recent" = 7 years
15:40:58 <ehird_> Sure, that's a bit of sarcasm, but I imagine he's been using these computery things before Perl was around
15:41:15 <AnMaster> ehird, about cgi in C: maybe to implement a scripting language. but that doesn't apply to his case
15:41:47 <ehird_> Python can do CGIs, but it isn't a CGI written in C. :-P
15:42:10 <AnMaster> which is why I said "but that doesn't apply to his case"
15:42:16 <ehird_> Considering CGIs are just a couple of environment vars that you get, and you just echo out an http response.
15:42:18 <AnMaster> he isn't writing a scripting interpreter
15:42:35 <AnMaster> ehird_, yes except no one uses that any more because it is so inefficient
15:42:47 <AnMaster> these days there are things like fastcgi, or mod_foo and so on
15:42:50 <ehird_> Well, I use it for the occasional trivial hack
15:43:13 <ehird_> But mostly I use the language-specific solutions because they tend to be better at it than fastcgi; e.g. mod_passenger for Ruby, mod_wsgi for Python
15:43:25 <ehird_> (Not mod_ruby or mod_python, which are both terrible - go figure)
15:44:22 <AnMaster> Cwatch is a log watcher much like the well-known swatch utility. Unlike swatch, cwatch is written in lex, yacc, and C, so it can run on a system that doesn’t have perl (or, as in my case, on a system where I don’t have the dynamic linking capacity that modern versons of perl require.)"
15:44:29 <AnMaster> wtf is wrong with dynamic linking?
15:44:42 <ehird_> Oh, dynamic linking has caused me tons of problems.
15:44:44 <AnMaster> most of those security hacks, like randomization of addresses require dynamic linking even
15:44:47 <ehird_> Plan 9 has no dynamic linking, either, it's all static
15:44:56 <AnMaster> ehird, well ok, but everyone use it these days
15:45:11 <ehird_> AnMaster: everyone also uses ELF and GNU and Perl
15:45:29 <AnMaster> and to be frank: I don't see the issue with ELF of Perl
15:45:42 <ehird_> Plan9's solution is unixy; you static-link the important stuff and the rest is in commands.
15:45:52 <ehird_> AnMaster: ELF, iirc, is bloated compared to a.out
15:45:59 <ehird_> I'm not sure of his exact gripe, though.
15:46:11 <ehird_> Perl presumably because as he said he can't install Perl, due to no dynamic linkin
15:46:12 <AnMaster> well yes it got a certain amount of metadata overhead
15:46:33 <AnMaster> but considering modern binaries... it is an insignificant amount
15:47:05 <AnMaster> like much less than 1 KB compared to a binary of often over 30 KB at least
15:47:34 <ehird_> I don't know, ask him. :p
15:47:46 <ehird_> Perhaps a.out files are faster to run/load.
15:48:04 <ehird_> Perhaps he just sees the features of ELF compared to a.out as not needed.
15:48:06 <AnMaster> also I never thought I would end up arguing on the same side as ehird in that question
15:48:24 <AnMaster> because I didn't think anyone could be much more prefer the old way than me heh
15:48:39 <ehird_> I thought you were a liberal, anyway, isn't that a bit paradoxical? :p
15:49:22 <AnMaster> I'd rather not discuss that. Suffice to say that liberal may be too much to the right for my taste
15:49:41 <ehird_> I don't think liberal actually has any fine pin-pointing, but whatever.
15:49:52 <ehird_> I know you've said you like socialism in the past, so I guess far-left. I'm pretty much the same.
15:50:02 <oklopol> a birdie told me AnMaster is a socialist
15:50:17 <ehird_> oklopol: a birdie known as clog?
15:50:33 <oklopol> no i think it was AnMaster.
15:50:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess it depends on what issues it is
15:51:16 * ehird_ supports ABORTING EVERY NEWBORN BABY & KITTEN
15:51:34 <oklopol> socialism doesn't really work for me, i don't really give a shit about people i don't know, and i don't even like the idea of a society where people are nice to strangers.
15:51:38 <ehird_> yes, aborting them POST-BIRTH
15:51:47 <AnMaster> freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of opinion. Liberal I guess when it comes to that.
15:51:55 <oklopol> yeah that's the humane thing to do, because you know whether they deserve it
15:52:17 <oklopol> if they aren't born yet, who knows, they could be really cool guys.
15:54:04 <oklopol> i was doing something, i'm sure
15:54:12 <oklopol> and now i'm staring at this window and have no clue.
15:54:21 <oklopol> so i guess i'll socialize a bit
15:55:09 <oklopol> or like gimme-some-hot-tea-or-i'll-most-surely-die cool?
15:55:30 <oklopol> well heck, what am i doing here then :\
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16:44:40 <Hiato> Guten[nag/dag] world
16:47:11 <Deewiant> in which language is it "nag"? O_o
16:47:52 <Slereah> I think he means "nacht" or something
16:48:03 <Deewiant> just wondering if anybody would actually say or write that
16:48:25 <Hiato> Anyone got either of the following: A good way to validate a large prime (found with probably miller-rabin), an arbitrary precision calculator so I can see the number in all its glory?
16:48:26 <Deewiant> I thought it was obvious what it meant :-P
16:48:51 <Deewiant> Hiato: if you answer my question I might be able to run something through Mathematica
16:49:53 <Deewiant> but evidently "guten" doesn't fit in
16:50:51 <Deewiant> Hiato: anyhoo, I've got Mathematica here... so what are you looking for
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16:51:40 <Hiato> yip, nicely done :P
16:52:15 <Hiato> Goeienag, and "snags" means funny or in the evening
16:53:26 <Hiato> (sorry, IRC client seems to be having some bad delays)
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16:54:13 <AquaLoqua> sorry about that Deewiant, Pidign's IRC is dying
16:54:41 <AquaLoqua> if not dead. What was this quesiton that I should answer?
16:54:54 <Deewiant> you already answered it with "afrikaans" :-)
16:55:34 <AquaLoqua> Oh, I see. Then perhaps you might be able to run 3^2521 -2 through Mathematica for me?
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16:55:57 <Deewiant> bah, that's a tiny number, all too easy :-P
16:56:10 <Deewiant> 66478796450889882937915975072813026539507576193402750526873297432119962224642117697219503382301330355047976113745824270903602329332161174576135552602173854297305538263330207230078187030679151177348747502892260949055429524724529301567307108189680225162226220405876105939921908744539875799782857201748186068248330693464490504074543525642597576445339082810885745581185402915395442133718406239632547971222498562638212574353711158105923192118705598166683582404
16:56:16 <Deewiant> 44999945951305275385112133493371508826394490679609109227534237764060131571928075430416911840882836753074732482507345880974398805950602433590637696036075148851407585332923838239726403418149714502307108083034929437313801039719746183968015332703268731287381514837788933821418626391959087957344640857464802443995702465243624042634594729865724564322979967970112323691163488583513564666359520981358727859643686500018828569529703568272721740614434763305472853925
16:56:22 <Deewiant> 51921038453893239515977131635925752931423550512603272087608800954436545497189268218875057633342317563395219199506400913166248245405520867428314613778858986060570975429236265467079808998631080351307401919284358880660711375210653975341720517847689216821848101278129662281995532069183363384503201
16:56:28 <Deewiant> the result came instantaneously
16:56:40 <Slereah2> Remember, guys, we're in the future
16:56:57 <Deewiant> AquaLoqua: and you wanted to know if it's prime?
16:57:00 <AquaLoqua> wow, damn, oh well, my programme is still chugging away, hopefully it will come up with something large soon :P
16:57:31 <AquaLoqua> Hah, that was fast, what is this programme?
16:57:36 <ehird> that will be a bit slow
16:57:39 <ehird> for such a huge number.
16:57:46 <AquaLoqua> Ah, what language might that be? (Lisp?)
16:57:52 <ehird> AquaLoqua: That's scheme.
16:57:58 <Slereah2> Although I guess it works in lisp
16:57:59 <ehird> Deewiant's system is Mathematica
16:58:02 <Deewiant> AquaLoqua: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematica
16:58:04 <ehird> Slereah: it doesn't
16:58:25 <AquaLoqua> Blah, the only functional language I know (and by now i mean have met) is Haskell. Thanks Deewiant, will take a look now
16:58:37 <ehird> Slereah: Everything.
16:58:49 <Deewiant> AquaLoqua: well, this number is small enough that this should be fairly doable in Haskell as well ;-)
16:59:31 <AquaLoqua> Hah, not gonna try - not with GHC at least. All the error codes are encrypted using AES, can't make heads or tails of them
17:00:55 <Slereah2> Well, it's been a minute and it's still checking for primolarity :o
17:02:10 <AquaLoqua> Heh, what have we got you into Slereah? :P
17:02:15 <Deewiant> Slereah2: you do realize that you're going to have to loop through N iterations where N is a number with over a thousand digits
17:02:23 <Deewiant> because it's been established that it /is/ prime
17:02:35 <AquaLoqua> why don't you just loop to the approx Sqrt?
17:02:41 <Deewiant> Slereah2: if you want to take a head start, start from the square root
17:02:56 <Deewiant> if you start from the square root now
17:03:01 <ehird> Your system resources.
17:03:02 <Deewiant> you'll be a LOT further than you are now :-P
17:03:04 <ehird> Call me back in 500 years
17:03:19 <Deewiant> Even if you take the square root
17:03:22 <Slereah2> I once ran a prime checker for Mesrene primes.
17:03:43 <ehird> ah, just let Slereah burn his system
17:03:47 <Slereah2> The program was called "Prime something something"
17:04:00 <ehird> PRIME SOMETHING SOMETHING
17:04:10 <Deewiant> it doesn't use that algorithm, I assure you :-P
17:04:32 <Deewiant> Because, again, they prefer 'few months' to '500 years' :-P
17:04:49 <Slereah2> www.mersenne.org/gimps/t/status.txt
17:05:23 <Slereah2> Of course, I just checked one number, and it wasn't even prime
17:05:50 <AquaLoqua> Well, considering they're getting the 50 000 smackers for finding the 46th mersenne prime, what's a few CPU cycles?
17:06:21 <Deewiant> I think I checked 2 or so numbers with prime95
17:06:22 <Slereah2> Well, they are, not the users :o
17:06:44 -!- Slereah has quit (Connection timed out).
17:06:59 <AquaLoqua> Deewiant: Shame, Slereah2: but you get your name in lights
17:07:23 <AquaLoqua> What are the odds anyway, of finding a mersenne prime if you randomly strike odd powers of two?
17:08:04 <Slereah2> AquaLoqua : To know the odds, you need to know the distribution of primes.
17:08:13 <Slereah2> And I'm not sure you can solve that problem!
17:08:15 <Deewiant> OR we can just look at the history.
17:08:29 <AquaLoqua> well, isn't the minimum distribution of primes in an interval given by a formula?
17:08:36 <Deewiant> How many numbers have been tested, how many were prime.
17:08:54 <Slereah2> Deewiant : Well, for that to work, you have to assume a somehow uniform distribution
17:09:28 <Deewiant> Or depends on what you mean by 'work'. We'll get a value, it's probably not correct but at least it's something :-P
17:09:48 <Deewiant> Hmm, looks like they don't go in order
17:10:10 <AquaLoqua> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_number#Distribution
17:11:32 <Deewiant> I guess GIMPS doesn't publish how many numbers they've tested :-/
17:12:03 <AquaLoqua> On a side not, I can only get my hands on Maxima (http://maxima.sourceforge.net/) in place of Mathematic, unless I be a pirrrate. Is it as good (should anyone know)?
17:12:26 <Deewiant> Mathematica is the best program out there for some things
17:12:49 <Deewiant> Mathematica and Matlab are the two top programs for basically 99% of things that can be done that you might want to do :-P
17:13:07 <AquaLoqua> Blarg, oh well, I gues I just most certainly will not obtain it illegally
17:13:23 <Deewiant> AquaLoqua: Scilab is a free program similar to Matlab.
17:13:44 <Deewiant> oklopol: No, I haven't proved it or anything. :-)
17:14:11 <Deewiant> My school's computers all have Mathematica 6 installed :-)
17:14:13 <oklopol> i don't know those languages, but that sounds like a lie
17:14:16 <AquaLoqua> Well, I'll give it a bash though, thanks
17:14:51 <Deewiant> Ah, and Maple is another popular one.
17:14:53 <AquaLoqua> aha, there's were you luck Deewiant, my schools PC's don't even have calculator, well at least you acn't get to it (well, you're not supposed to be able to anyway)
17:15:16 <Deewiant> Heh, you're stuck to Windows? I feel your pain :-)
17:15:55 <Deewiant> Mathematica is reputedly the best for symbolic computation, Matlab is faster for numerical stuff
17:16:11 <Deewiant> R is what statisticians prefer
17:16:39 <Deewiant> AquaLoqua: oh, and see also Octave, another Matlab clone
17:16:44 <Slereah2> Them Mathematica is hard to use though
17:16:57 <Slereah2> It's nifty and all, but it's hard to find errors
17:17:00 <AquaLoqua> Like Primes? Perfect. You see: 2008/11/13 @ 06:28:31 PM : 3^2521-2 was the last Prime it came up with, it now being 7:19
17:17:26 <Deewiant> evidently Maple is more like Mathematica
17:17:29 <AquaLoqua> Roger that, will check it out (something tell's me I've used Sciab before)
17:18:18 <Deewiant> I saw some good benchmarks many months ago, am trying to dig up
17:20:01 <Deewiant> School computers appear to have matlab as well
17:20:15 <Deewiant> Maybe I'll just test that one number and see what kind of speeds come out :-P
17:20:48 <Deewiant> now if I knew how to use this thing
17:20:53 <AquaLoqua> (Are you connecting to a virtual school network from home?)
17:21:15 <Deewiant> It's where I'm running my IRC client as well :-)
17:21:33 <AquaLoqua> NICE! Damn, would I kill for that (hell, we don't even have a functioning website let alone telnet and co)
17:24:52 <Deewiant> hmm, I think I'd need to run matlab in X to actually see the results :-/
17:25:07 <Deewiant> the profiler doesn't seem to work on the console
17:25:33 <AquaLoqua> .. Wouldn't know :P What distro do you use?
17:26:32 <Deewiant> ??? Error using ==> isprime at 22
17:26:32 <Deewiant> The maximum value of X allowed is 2^32.
17:26:39 <Deewiant> so yeah, that's why matlab is faster :-)
17:27:00 <Deewiant> now how do I pull arbitrary precision out of this thing
17:27:04 <AquaLoqua> Ah, so you're on Windoze at home? I suppose if you're a gamer then it's alright. HAHA, yay, my puny number broke something :P Well, I know now, thanks :P
17:27:50 <Deewiant> Yeah, I use windows at home, although my laptop is mainly gentoo (dual boot there)
17:28:42 <Deewiant> well hmm, looks like matlab can't do this at all
17:29:06 <AquaLoqua> Cannot be, but I guess it's much like GHC in it's cryptic-ness
17:29:36 <AquaLoqua> We know it's prime, and that's all that matters, so 7 interations of Miller-Rabin is good enough for at least about 1000 odd digits
17:30:11 <AquaLoqua> Well, after reading YAHT (about half a dozen times) I still don't know what it's on about, and HUGS just plain sucks :P
17:31:14 <Deewiant> Two newish ones that I hear are good are http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/ and http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/
17:31:15 <Asztal> I always thought I just couldn't find the option for loading multiple modules at once in Hugs... but apparently there isn't one
17:31:52 <AquaLoqua> Heh, another hole in the wall I suppose
17:32:03 <AquaLoqua> Deewiant: will check them out, thanks
17:32:49 <AquaLoqua> Kind of reminds me of Why's Poignant Guide
17:34:09 <Deewiant> yeah, the first one is in that style
17:34:18 <Deewiant> the second one is a complete book
17:41:05 <AquaLoqua> "On Windows it's just a matter of downloading the installer and clicking "Next" a couple of times and then rebooting your computer. On Debian based Linux distributions you can just do apt-get install ghc6 libghc6-mtl-dev and you're laughing." How sad but true
17:43:40 <Deewiant> Run before the lambdas get you
17:43:52 <Deewiant> I'm already caught, I can't escape
17:43:53 <Slereah2> It's the monads you have to watch out for
17:43:57 <Deewiant> All other languages seem to suck now
17:44:30 <AquaLoqua> Slereah2: Am I sensing some kind of tension ehre? Why don't you like Haskell? Either way, do you think there's a better functional language than Haskell for a newb at functional?
17:45:05 <Deewiant> there was somebody on #haskell just yesterday for whom it was his first programming language ever
17:45:30 <AquaLoqua> Heh, wow, talk about brave (or stupid)
17:45:35 <Deewiant> he was reading the intro on LYAH and said "aren't all languages like this? if not, what are those other muppets doing" or something to that effect :-D
17:45:53 <Deewiant> I think Haskell is perfectly fine as a first language
17:46:10 <Deewiant> I suspect it's much harder as a first functional language after imperative languages
17:46:24 <Deewiant> But I don't know, I only went the latter way and there was much head-bashing involved :-P
17:46:32 <AquaLoqua> Well, I can only talk from experience when I say, as approx a sixth langauge, I still don't get it. Then again, I'm not the sharpest tool
17:47:21 <AquaLoqua> The imperative trap holds one fast. Though, I wonder if it isn't a more natural (if somewhat less tangible system)
17:49:00 <Deewiant> I don't know. It may or may not be.
17:49:17 <Deewiant> What I will say is that prolog is definitely unnatural. ;-)
17:49:42 <AquaLoqua> Heh, apples and .. well, llamas my friend - beyond comaprison :P
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18:05:15 <Slereah2> I mostly went to scheme because it's the first functional language I saw
18:05:27 <Slereah2> (It's what Lazy K is writen in, and I saw that)
18:09:03 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | quite, but is it t or f.
18:09:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | $ ls tests/.
18:09:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | yes.
18:09:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | as in your example, double each integer is equivalent to like.
18:09:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | what is agora?.
18:09:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | !hangman s.
18:09:38 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | fizzie: I think it may be quite possible to do hot code change of parts of efunge without stopping :D.
18:09:40 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | no.
18:09:47 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | did it have static scoping?.
18:09:55 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | <image x="50" y="50"><pixel x="1" y="1"><red value="255"/><blue value="0"/><green value="0"/></pixel>....
18:10:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ....
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20:51:11 <Sgeo> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/bonobo-conspiracy/?i=41
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20:57:02 <Sgeo> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/bonobo-conspiracy/?i=94 muahaha
20:57:12 <oerjan> <ehird_> you are not oerjan
20:57:20 <oerjan> i am glad we finally agree on that
21:04:26 <Sgeo> Bonobo Conspiracy
21:06:21 <Sgeo> Geeky stuff, apparently. The bald guy is the TA of some course
21:06:32 <Slereah2> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/bonobo-conspiracy/?i=3
21:06:40 <Slereah2> Is this comic just jokes about computation theory?
21:07:24 <Sgeo> No, there are other types of jokes in there
21:11:10 <Slereah2> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/bonobo-conspiracy/?i=10
21:11:16 <Slereah2> Author is too lazy to change any sprite
21:11:51 <Sgeo> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/bonobo-conspiracy/?i=66
21:13:21 <Sgeo> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/bonobo-conspiracy/?i=69
21:37:55 <Sgeo> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/bonobo-conspiracy/?i=129
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21:47:50 <Sgeo> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/bonobo-conspiracy/?i=148
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00:10:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Sure, but it's also substantially superior to the Wiz :P.
00:10:40 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | My head is hairy..
00:41:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Its just really frustrating.
00:41:37 <MizardX> Hmm... I made an interpeter for Redivider in python, and an interpreter for Brainf**k in Redivider. It throws up after ~1000 bf instructions (stack overflow), but does Redivider still count as turing complete?
00:43:43 <oerjan> python stack overflow?
00:43:56 <oerjan> if so, that's not redivider's problem
00:44:11 <MizardX> python stack overflow, yes.
00:44:49 <oerjan> iirc python has an arbitrary stack limit that can be annoying
00:45:38 <oerjan> and presumably no tail call optimization either
00:47:26 <MizardX> Neither in python nor my rd interpreter. That could be a goal for the next version.
00:48:41 <MizardX> Where could I upload the code? Pasting 500 lines of python on the wiki doesn't sound very appealing.
00:48:58 <oerjan> for turing completeness, you usually assume no arbitrary resource limits
00:49:50 <oerjan> right, some people here have access to the esoteric file archive, not me though
00:51:31 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Esolang:The_Esoteric_File_Archive
00:53:47 <oerjan> GregorR and pgimeno are here regularly, at least, GregorR might even be here now
00:55:02 <oerjan> although it's probably not a good idea if the interpreter is still under too much development
00:55:51 <oerjan> hm also there's that eso-std.org site or something like that which some are using
01:00:03 <oerjan> i'm sure there are lots of free places, but i don't use them, what little i do i put on my homepage
01:00:59 * oerjan notes that the eso-std.org homepage is not overly informative :D
01:01:17 <oerjan> i _think_ it may be ehird's and ais523's site
01:02:46 <MizardX> Well... I put the bf-interpreter on the wiki at least. It's only 182 lines, 100 of which is atoi/itoa. http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Redivider/Brainfuck_Interpreter
01:06:22 <oerjan> hm right, optbot is running there and belongs to ehird
01:06:23 <optbot> oerjan: ~exec sys.stdout.write("foo")
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01:26:36 <GregorR> "sometimes i fly around in a spaceship :>"
01:27:28 <oerjan> i guess ehird is secretly Calvin
01:27:49 <Slereah2> Once I was in a spaceship and I saw my house!
01:28:19 <GregorR> oerjan: And the (2,3) machine has only been proven complete in the minds of comic book readers everywhere D-8
01:28:40 <oerjan> GregorR: maybe that's for the best
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01:38:22 <warrie> I nominate myself for the position of Hobbes.
01:38:50 <GregorR> Because of the Calvin-raping-Hobbes scenes you don't usually see in the comic.
01:39:03 <Slereah2> I have pictures of such scenes
01:39:49 <warrie> I also nominate myself for the position of Ozymandias Justin Llewellyn, who, according to the Encyclopedia Dramatica, is just a lousy clone of Hobbes. I think.
01:40:31 <Slereah2> Ozy and Millie is a more LIBERAL version of Calvin and Hobbes
01:41:25 * warrie peeks at the Bird Brains, the I Drew This blog, authored by D. C. Simpson, Thomas K. Dye, and some other guy
01:42:19 <Slereah2> Do you remember that INTERNET WAR with R H Junior?
01:43:43 <GregorR> so i herd u liek BLOODkips
01:44:31 <warrie> No, I just read about it on the Encyclopedia Dramatica.
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06:04:13 <oklopol> hi i'm new here, what's this channel about is it about mudkips?
06:04:49 <oklopol> talk to you later, need to go do stuff ->
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06:35:38 <lament> #! < <>< < ><> ><> <>< > >
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08:54:34 <AquaLoqua> Deewiant, I have another for you to verify if you don't mind (and also if you could get it primted in a decimal string): 3^6184 -2
08:56:47 <fizzie> "bc" will give you a decimal string of it just fine, though.
08:57:38 <Deewiant> AquaLoqua: and you can just put it into GHCi as well :-P
08:58:15 <AquaLoqua> Heh, you're right, wow, I didn't know it had arbitrary precision
08:58:41 <fizzie> (- (expt 3 6184) 2) in any Scheme system worth it's salt, also.
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11:22:31 <AnMaster> -oklopol- Fri Nov 14 13:22:02 2008 <-- hm
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12:27:09 <oklopol> fizzie: actually i was wrong about knowing how to run, i've only recently learned to run.
12:27:27 <oklopol> technically i was just "jumping around" before.
12:27:48 <oklopol> because i think the definition of running is only one foot touches ground between the jumps.
12:28:07 <oklopol> and in walking you always have 1-2 feet on the ground
12:28:44 <oklopol> i was doing something in-between, because i relied on the leg behind me to make me kinda tilt forward at impact so i can jump into the right direction.
12:29:24 <oklopol> but anyway, now i'm actually running, i'm pretty fast too. still falling down a lot, but now it occasionally actually looks like running.
12:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | dad runs our wireless internet.
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13:03:18 <oklopol> the problem is after the ~10 hours of gameplay i get so excited from getting near the goal i actually forget what the buttons do.
13:04:18 <oklopol> this is usually my problem, i can either get it done on a few attempts, or i can die a few times near the beginning, after which i lose self-confidence, and progress becomes slow.
13:04:36 <oklopol> but, it's not like i'm in a hurry, i have a good 120 years left.
13:08:08 <oklopol> lol. now i can suddenly get to 50 meters routinely.
13:08:13 <oklopol> i should really get my brain inspected
13:13:44 <fizzie> You're making good progress there.
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13:31:33 <oklopol> fizzie: being sarcastic? :P
13:32:01 <oklopol> my only real feat here is patience, i doubt anyone else could play this for this long without succeeding.
13:33:01 <oklopol> but, enough for today, it's in god's hands now whether i succeed tomorrow or on sunday
13:33:09 <oklopol> if i don't, it's going to be a rough monday :P
13:33:55 <oklopol> actually i'll play another half an hour, this day is going to be wasted anyway, due to certain social events :<
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13:41:35 <oerjan> +ul ((<)(>)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
13:41:37 <thutubot> <>><><<>><<><>><><<><>><<>><><<>><<><>><<>><><<><>><><<>><<><>><><<><>><<>><><<><>><><<>><<><>><<>><><<>><<><>><><<><>><<>><><<> ...too much output!
13:51:02 <oerjan> +ul ((o)(k)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
13:51:03 <thutubot> okkokookkookokkokookokkookkokookkookokkookkokookokkokookkookokkokookokkookkokookokkokookkookokkookkokookkookokkokookokkookkokookkookokkookkokookokkokookkookokkookkokookkookokkokookokkookkokookokkokookkookokkokookokkookkokookkookokkookkokookokkokookkookokko ...too much output!
13:59:26 * ais523 thinks they wrote the world's slowest Underload interpreter yesterday
13:59:31 <oerjan> ais523: do you know why it prints twice as much of the second program as the first, despite only differing in the printed characters?
14:00:50 <ais523> oerjan: it only breaks after the end of an S command
14:01:05 <ais523> it finishes the string it's on before realising there's too much output
14:01:14 <fizzie> But the only change was the characters inside ()s.
14:01:35 <ais523> < and > are two characters in Thutu
14:01:59 <ais523> it escapes all punctuation marks
14:02:06 <ais523> so that the unescaped versions can be used to avoid collisions
14:02:34 <fizzie> Coincidentally, "kokko" (which is an often-occurring substring in that output) is the Finnish word for a bonfire.
14:03:51 <oklopol> Kokko, kokoo kokoon koko kokko
14:04:03 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
14:04:21 <oklopol> is "Kokko" actually a name? i never checked.
14:05:03 <oklopol> "Kokko, kokoo kokoon koko kokko." "Koko kokkoko?" "Koko kokko."
14:05:16 <oerjan> does that mean something?
14:05:26 <oklopol> Kokko, please build the whole bonfire
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14:06:16 * oerjan now understands kokko, and the -ko suffix
14:06:49 <oklopol> "koota" is kinda "to gather up" or something similar
14:07:15 <oklopol> in third person becomes "kokoa", "kokoo" is the colloquial way to say it
14:07:46 <oklopol> err, becomes "kokoa" in imperative, also in third person, but that was not used in the sentence
14:07:58 <oklopol> "koko" is "whole"/"entire"
14:08:48 <oklopol> "kokoon" doesn't really mean anything there, it's like "build into a state of being built".
14:08:52 <oklopol> build is a bad verb for that
14:09:07 <oklopol> anyway, hope you enjoy your new vague knowledge about finnish.
14:09:14 <oerjan> http://www.hvafor.no/article/setninger-best-ende-av-kun-like-ord.html
14:19:36 <fizzie> There's another phrase a bit like that involving the word "kasvain" (tumor), the interjection "kas vain" (denoting vaguely something like being surprised), the adjective "vaivoin" ('with difficulty') and the verb "kasvaa" (to grow).
14:19:47 <fizzie> It's not as obviously silly as the "kokko" one, though.
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14:20:00 <oerjan> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Language_of_Finland
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14:22:14 <fizzie> I like the little-known fact there.
14:23:54 <ais523> http://paste.eso-std.org/j
14:24:02 <ais523> ^ my Underload interpreter in Thue
14:24:15 <ais523> although I forgot how Thue did input when I wrote that so the program it runs is hardcoded
14:26:18 <ais523> it's the slowest Underload interp I know
14:27:00 <fizzie> How slow is it, compared to, say, fungot's brainfuck interpreter running the brainfuck underload one?
14:27:01 <fungot> fizzie: use string=? and char=? to test the quality of those awake hours though :p.
14:27:24 <ais523> fizzie: even slower I think
14:27:25 <fizzie> fungot: Uh, how exactly am I supposed to do that?
14:27:26 <fungot> fizzie: although the statement you responded to a comment i made)
14:27:58 <oklokok> For exampy the prase "Sorry, I didn't hear correctly what you said, please repeat that?" is spelled "Anteeksi, en oikein kuullut, mitä sanoitte, olkaa kiltti ja toistakaa?" and pronounced as "hä?"
14:29:41 <Deewiant> "Juoksentelisimmekohan" was in my finnish book in lower secondary
14:29:50 <fizzie> The page continues -- or "mitäh?" or "vittu puhu suomee!"; those are just "what?" and "[expletive] speak Finnish!"
14:30:04 <oklokok> i usually say "ö" for "yes"
14:30:18 <Deewiant> A cat was saying that, with a dog going "Skulle vi springa lite hit och dit utan någon särskilt ändamål"
14:30:31 <Deewiant> Or then the dog was saying it in finnish, I forget... the art was rather poor anyway
14:30:59 <oklokok> "e" for "no", but that's common
14:31:05 <oklokok> the rest can usually be done using "o"
14:31:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: That might be where the Uncyclopedia article got it from.
14:32:19 <Deewiant> Hence I related the tale so that all may partake in this interesting tidbit of Uncyclopedia history
14:33:51 <fizzie> The one quote I remember from my Finnish book was the one about using relative pronouns correctly: "At home I spoke about the tiger to mother, who was kept locked in [her] cage." -- the relative clause was supposedly referring to the tiger, not the mother.
14:33:55 <Deewiant> The text was about agglutinative languages, of course.
14:34:27 <Deewiant> fizzie: I think that's ambiguous.
14:34:37 <fizzie> (In the Finnish version the word for cage was "häkissään", which includes the possessive suffix.)
14:35:04 <fizzie> "Kotona kerroin tiikeristä äidille, jota pidettiin lukittuna häkissään."
14:35:08 <Deewiant> "Kotona puhuin tiikeristä äidille, joka oli lukittuna häkissään?"
14:35:19 <oklokok> yeah, that's unambiguous, means the mother is in her own cage.
14:35:52 <fizzie> Something like that. I think Korpela's pages might have that quote. :p
14:35:59 <ais523> $ time ./thue.pl ulhello.t
14:36:01 <oklokok> "jota" refers to the words just before it, unless there's a pronoun that changes the referent.
14:36:24 <ais523> and that's just the (Hello, world!)S program
14:36:36 <Deewiant> The sentence itself is weird, though. The mother is in her own cage? What's she doing in there?
14:36:47 <fizzie> "Kotona kerroin tiikeristä äidille, jonka täytyi elää vangittuna häkissään." says google.
14:36:49 <ais523> Deewiant: protecting herself from the nearby mobile phone mast
14:36:51 <oklokok> "...tiger to mother, which..." is about the mother, "...that tiger to mother, which..." refers to the tiger, but that sounds bad in finnish, there's really no simple way to say it right.
14:37:28 <oklokok> actually there is in this case, just flip yeah
14:37:32 <Deewiant> "Kotona kerroin äidille tiikeristä, "...
14:37:42 <oklokok> i assumed there wasn't, because i thought that was the point
14:37:55 <Deewiant> I'm not sure if it's fitting or not that we're discussing Finnish in #esoteric ;-)
14:38:19 <oklokok> the metalanguage is english, that's all that matters
14:38:25 <fizzie> Yes, and the point of the sentence was just to illustrate how "joka" very easily refers to the previous words.
14:38:47 <fizzie> Although I'm not sure... in some families, who knows.
14:38:48 <Deewiant> It always refers to the previous word.
14:39:08 <oklokok> "kerroin siitä tiikeristä äidille, jota eniten rakastan"
14:39:46 <oklokok> you can change the referent artificially, and sometimes it even sounds okay, even though i didn't feel like trying to find such an example.
14:40:14 <oklokok> if there's a set of tigers, which you're choosing the loveliest from, that refers to the tiger.
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14:40:57 <Deewiant> No it doesn't, it's just incorrect. :-P
14:41:20 <Deewiant> "Kerroin eniten rakastamastani tiikeristä äidille." ;-)
14:41:33 <oklopol> a sentence meaning the same doesn't really prove much.
14:41:54 <oklopol> i don't fail at finnish, if i did, i'd change finnish to retroactively be right.
14:42:36 <oklopol> admittedly it does sound weird, it's a bit poetic. it's not incorrect.
14:43:08 <Deewiant> It doesn't sound weird; it means "I told the mother whom I most love of that tiger."
14:43:18 <Deewiant> And I'm trying to prove it. :-P
14:43:36 <oklopol> it can mean that, but it can also refer to the tiger.
14:43:40 <Deewiant> http://fi.wikibooks.org/wiki/Suomen_kieli/Sis%C3%A4lt%C3%B6 is unfortunately blank
14:44:04 <oklopol> "se tiikeri on äidin mieleen, jota eniten rakastan"
14:44:28 <Deewiant> You'd lose a point for that in an essay. :-P
14:44:45 <oklopol> no i wouldn't. ask any native.
14:44:47 <Deewiant> it has to be "se tiikeri, jota eniten rakastan, on äidin mieleen"
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14:44:55 <Deewiant> I am native and I tried to ask fizzie
14:45:28 <oklopol> "se tiikeri, jota eniten rakastan, on äidin mieleen" is definitely better
14:46:21 <oklopol> but it's common to change the referent using a pronoun, it's not wrong, just usually doesn't sound nearly as good.
14:46:27 <Deewiant> actually that's a relative, not an indefinite, pronoun.
14:47:04 <Deewiant> But the wikibook fails anyway.
14:47:33 <fizzie> I do think "se tiikeri on äidin mieleen, jota eniten rakastan" sounds weird, but I also do think the relative clause there is still referring to the mother.
14:47:37 <Deewiant> Well, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_grammar#Relative_pronouns says "refers to the previous word"
14:48:39 <Deewiant> Hmm, I wonder if I have any old finnish books around
14:48:50 <oklopol> if you both believe it, i will wait for proof.
14:48:58 <fizzie> Generally on these kinds of debates I just check http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/kielenopas/index.html but I can't seem to find anything relevant right now.
14:49:01 <oklopol> not that i will believe you if you can prove you're right.
14:49:09 <oklopol> but you may have to believe me.
14:49:21 <fizzie> Are we distracting you from your running, by the way?
14:49:30 <oklopol> oh no, you're distracting me from reading
14:50:06 <fizzie> And why do I keep adding a space after a trailing ? in sentences still. It's been at least five years since that was last necessary to avoid the question-answering bot.
14:50:26 <oklopol> "se oppilas puhuu, jolla on puheenvuoro"
14:50:36 <oklopol> "se oppilas kertokoon mielipiteensä, jolla on puheenvuoro"
14:50:47 <oklopol> i'm so sure i'm right i could eat a horse.
14:51:22 <fizzie> How does eating a horse help?
14:51:41 <oklopol> you would be afraid of me, and thusly tell me anything i want to hear.
14:51:43 <fizzie> Anyway, yes, in those examples I would interpret it to refer to the student.
14:51:49 <ehird> fizzie: Why oid the bot? :P
14:52:28 <fizzie> ehird: The bot was just a bit annoying when trying to have a real conversation. Should've made it name-triggered instead of question-mark-triggered, really.
14:52:45 <ehird> Eh, annoying bots are cool beanios
14:52:46 <oklopol> fizzie: naturally, that's one of the cases where it sounds natural. that's the exact same construct, it's just you'd put the relative clause after the referent if it was any longer, so it doesn't look natural for longer examples.
14:52:49 <Deewiant> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/kielenopas/7.9.html#joka
14:53:11 <Deewiant> he doesn't say whether it's right or not
14:53:14 <Deewiant> Seuraavassa taas joka-sanan viittauksen kohteeksi tarjoutuu ensisijaisesti sana ”nelostiellä”. Lukija kyllä ymmärtää tämän tulkinnan mahdottomuuden ja hakee kohteen aiempaa. Mutta lukija rasittuu aivan turhaan.
14:53:18 <Deewiant> > Ohitimme Möttösten auton nelostiellä, jossa istui viisi henkeä.
14:53:28 <oklopol> Ohitimme niiden Möttösten auton, jotka olivat naapureitamme Kittilässä.
14:53:28 <oklopol> Tuolla on sen miehen koira, jota ehdotettiin isännöitsijäksi.
14:53:34 <fizzie> He never says "right" or "wrong", it's not like it's a binary thing.
14:53:46 <Deewiant> Joskus tämäntapaiset tilanteet hoidetaan seuraavalla tavalla, joka on muodollisesti kielen sääntöjen mukainen:
14:54:44 <fizzie> More likely whatever you paste it in is the one that fails.
14:54:56 <oklopol> yeah he says "the reader will find this confusing", but that's bullcrap, i'm not talking about "finnish that sounds pretty", i'm just telling you i'm technically right.
14:54:57 <fizzie> The soft hypens are, after all, part of the text, and should be copied.
14:55:42 <Deewiant> Welp, I learned something today
14:55:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: The hyphens you pasted there are soft, it's just that terminal emulators don't much bother with that stuff.
14:56:06 <Deewiant> fizzie: I figured Firefox's "view source" wouldn't bother either
14:56:14 <oklopol> ...can i go now, or will there be more linguistics to argue about?
14:56:51 <oklopol> psygnisfive would be so pissed were he here
14:57:10 <fizzie> Run, oklopol, run. (Or read, as the case may be.)
14:57:27 <oklopol> Deewiant: well he's a linguist, but he couldn't really contribute
14:57:31 <ais523> well, I have an improved version of my Underload in Thue now which actulaly takes input
14:57:40 <oklopol> fizzie: yeah, right, i shallll ->
14:58:08 <ais523> http://paste.eso-std.org/k
14:58:26 <ais523> I have some ideas as to how to optimise it, but I'll stick with that for the time being
14:58:34 <ais523> now all I need is to tweak it a bit to do Underlambda Core in Thue
14:58:41 <ais523> I have a new project, you see
14:58:49 <ais523> which is to get all known TC esolangs to compile to each other
14:58:57 <ais523> and I'm hoping to do it by using Underlambda as an intermediate lang
14:59:21 <ais523> the idea is to have Underlambda as a high-level tarpit, that sounds like a contradiction but basically it can be done with only a few commands and loads and loads of libraries
14:59:54 <ais523> and Underlambda Core = Underload with different I/O
15:00:14 <ais523> incidentally, just adding one more command to Underload leads to all sorts of beauty
15:00:28 <ais523> the command is n, which replaces the stack with () if it has exactly one element
15:00:40 <ehird> http://www.netsoc.tcd.ie/~mu/cgi-bin/shortpath.cgi?from=Hitler&to=List%20of%20Pokemon%20(241-260)
15:01:10 <AnMaster> ehird: have you got KDE to work? :)
15:01:28 <ais523> seen my Underload-in-Thue?
15:01:42 <ais523> http://paste.eso-std.org/k
15:01:42 <AnMaster> not that I know Thue so wouldn't help I guess
15:01:48 <ais523> luckily it doesn't open in a new window atm
15:01:51 <ais523> because ehird changed it
15:02:03 <ehird> actually, i changed it 'cuz of a bug
15:02:10 <ehird> and will probably change it back when i fix said bu
15:02:37 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know Thue, so...
15:02:48 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thue
15:02:56 <ais523> one of the most tarpitty tarpits around
15:03:04 <ehird> AnMaster doesn't know what thue is?
15:03:29 <AnMaster> it is not a language I can program in
15:03:51 <AnMaster> ehird, "not knowing a language" != "not knowing about a language"
15:04:04 <ais523> well that interpreter's mostly generated code anyway, to deal with all the possibilities for characters inside strings
15:04:19 <ais523> it doesn't allow < and > inside strings, but Underload's specified to not allow those
15:04:31 <fizzie> It's funny that the inverse path is just two clicks; List of Pokemon -> Time travel -> Adolf Hitler.
15:05:33 <ais523> anyway, my main eso achievement of yesterday was an Underlambda Special -> Underlambda Core compiler written as an Underlambda header file
15:05:55 <ais523> but unfortunately nobody but me knows any of the languages involved so they won't be able to tell what sort of achievement that is
15:06:26 <ehird> i know underlambda
15:06:39 <ais523> ehird: well I changed some things and didn't tell anyone
15:06:55 <ais523> I want the language to be right first time for my Grand Unified Esolang Project
15:07:09 <AnMaster> "Execution consists of picking, from the list of rules, an arbitrary rule whose original string exists as a substring somewhere in the program state"
15:07:13 <ais523> whereby I write compilers from Underlambda to all known TC esolangs, and compilers from all known TC esolangs to Underlambda
15:07:17 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, at random
15:07:31 <ais523> although deterministic Thue interpreters normally produce the same results and run faster
15:07:32 <AnMaster> ais523, then getting the order of IO correct is very hard
15:08:02 <AnMaster> "Input is performed using a special rule like this:
15:08:23 <AnMaster> so it requires the input string to contain something that will make it change to the new state
15:08:29 <oklopol> AnMaster: usually you just have one spot in the string where you are actually doing rewriting.
15:08:56 <AnMaster> but how would that work for input, since you *can't* know what the user will enter
15:09:10 <ais523> [Fri Nov 14 2008] [15:07:59] <ais523> you just arrange things so that earlier I/O removes substrings that block later I/O
15:09:11 <ais523> [Fri Nov 14 2008] [15:08:39] <ais523> for instance, ad::= world!/bc::=Hello,/::=/abcd
15:09:17 <oklopol> you can have something like 0001100110X0110101, and X is kind of the "turtle", not sure what a good term would be
15:09:27 <ais523> you just arrange things so that earlier I/O removes substrings that block later I/O
15:09:34 <ais523> for instance, ad::= world!/bc::=Hello,/::=/abcd
15:09:52 <ais523> oklopol: it acts sort of like an IP but you can have more of them
15:10:04 <oklopol> IP might work, but it's not exactly the same thing
15:10:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes that was what I meant
15:10:06 <ais523> oklopol: yes, luckily Underload bans various characters so you can rely on them not being in the input
15:10:12 <ais523> Underlambda bans # and |
15:10:20 <ais523> and Underload bans <>{}"
15:10:29 <ehird> ais523: so this project will replace c-intercal? ;)
15:10:36 <ehird> just treat C as an esolang for it :P
15:10:49 <AnMaster> ais523, how will you know for sure that after user input there will actually exist something that is valid for user input?
15:11:20 <ais523> ehird: no, it's just a different project to work on
15:11:21 <ais523> although there will have to be an INTERCAL->Underlambda compiler involved somewhere, of course
15:11:31 <ehird> treat c as an esolang
15:11:35 <ais523> AnMaster: basically, you enclose it in known characters
15:11:36 <ehird> you get c->intercal and intercal->c
15:11:36 <AnMaster> ais523, to prevent another rule running before the input it would have to only be valid after input
15:11:45 <oklopol> ais523: if you get lazy, i volunteer for making some of the compilers, in case that wasn't a given.
15:11:52 <AnMaster> ais523, and I can't see any pattern matching or?
15:11:58 <ais523> and you make sure that nothing in the input might match the head of the rule
15:12:11 <ais523> no pattern matching is the main annoyance of Thue, you have to write all the patterns out by hand
15:12:16 <ais523> oklopol: thanks, probably I'll need it
15:12:19 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you make sure that other rule isn't run before?
15:12:21 <ais523> I need to finish speccing Underlambda first
15:12:25 <ehird> oklopol had a thue-alike
15:12:28 <ehird> that used actual graphic things
15:12:33 <AnMaster> ais523, since order isn't defined
15:12:38 <ais523> AnMaster: as long as you describe what you do logically, the order doesn't really matter
15:12:55 <ehird> not TC though; len(replacement) must == len(pattern)
15:12:59 <ais523> my Underload interp uses markers which are numbers in angle brackets to mark bits of the code that haven't been calculated yet
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15:13:15 <ais523> they can't normally move past each other except in a few cases, so it has to finish calculating a bit of the program before it can be used
15:13:55 <ais523> although, it is a pipelined Underload interp, it can start on one command before it's finished the one before
15:13:55 <ais523> e.g. if you write aa both the closing parens will probably be added before either opening paren
15:14:02 <AnMaster> ais523, well. lets say you want the user to input a string, and no other state may be run before the user have input something. Sure you can ban certain bits from being entered. Fine. But how do you know that the string the user enter will suddenly enable one of the other states to be run
15:14:06 <ais523> but that doesn't matter, if you run, say, ^ or * after that it'll wait for the parens to be added before continuing
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15:14:35 <AnMaster> name may contain letters and spaces
15:14:40 <ais523> AnMaster: well, say you know the name will be letters and spaces
15:14:52 <ais523> you can have, say, <1><2><3> as the initial string
15:14:57 <ais523> replace <2> with ::: (i.e. input)
15:15:15 <ais523> then you replace <1>A with <1><4>A and <4>A with output A
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15:15:24 <ais523> <1>B with <1><4>B and <4>B with output B
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15:15:35 <AnMaster> ah you have to special case for all possible values
15:15:48 <AnMaster> ais523, what if the user just hits enter
15:15:57 <ais523> AnMaster: you have a replacement for <1><3> which runs at the end
15:16:03 <ais523> and which can obviously only run once the string's been output
15:16:27 <AnMaster> ais523, how would you duplicate a string?
15:16:33 <AnMaster> say you want to output the name several times
15:16:45 <ais523> AnMaster: with difficulty, the string duplicate thing's probably the longest part
15:17:03 <AnMaster> and this language is actually tc?
15:17:05 <ais523> basically, you have a marker which runs through the input changing A to A<5A>, B to B<5B> and so on
15:17:22 <oklopol> AnMaster: you just saw a proof it is
15:17:25 <ais523> then you have a rule to change <5A>A to A<5A>, <5A>B to B<5A>, and so on
15:17:50 <ais523> so the <5> versions end up sorted at one end, and the original string at the other
15:17:54 <oklopol> sk combinators take like an hour to make
15:17:56 <ais523> then you can de-<5> them
15:17:58 <oklopol> and it's conceptually trivial
15:18:14 <AnMaster> ais523, what if you want to match ::= ?
15:18:23 <ais523> you have to match it in bits, that's a syntax thing
15:18:31 <ais523> say by changing : to ; separately
15:18:38 <oklopol> programming it is actually simpler than, for instance, boolfuck, because you can extend from within, it's kinda like a langauge with two stacks.
15:18:44 <ais523> (btw, that's what <88> is about in my Underload interp, it's so I can have replacements starting with ~)
15:18:54 <oklopol> it's just when moving around, you have to list all the possible characters that may be next to the ip.
15:18:59 <oklopol> if you want to be able to skip over them
15:19:25 <oklopol> not sure that makes much sense if you haven't actually programmed in it, but the point is it's simple.
15:19:26 <ais523> the bulk of the Underload interp is to allow arbitrary characters to skip over /other/ arbitrary characters
15:19:35 <ais523> AnMaster: all Thue programs I've seen start off by implementing an IP
15:19:43 <ais523> the lang doesn't have one by default, but you can write one
15:19:43 <ehird> i'm sad that i missed MUD
15:19:45 <oklopol> by making all rules explicitly only do stuff to a place where you have some kinda ip character.
15:19:54 <AnMaster> well you could make them massively parallel by not using an ip
15:20:06 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, but that's more complicated to do.
15:20:26 <oklopol> i think my ski had some part where it can do two things in either order.
15:20:39 <ais523> oklopol: there's lots of nondeterminism in the Underload interp
15:20:45 <ais523> because commands are run asynchronously
15:20:51 <AnMaster> oh and since Game of Life is TC and very very parallel it should be able to take advantage of multi-core computers
15:21:03 <ais523> (^ because it needs to know what to run before running it, S to make sure output happens in the right order)
15:21:11 <oklopol> ais523: yeah, but my ski doesn't work like that, evaluates lazily
15:21:26 <oklopol> yeah, lazily, always the outermsot
15:21:41 <oklopol> (i think. don't remember exactly, something like that anyway)
15:21:46 * ais523 likes nondeterministic evaluation orders
15:21:47 <AnMaster> ais523, is underlambda documented somewhere?
15:21:55 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underlambda says "no text"
15:22:45 <ais523> AnMaster: not publically yet
15:22:49 <ais523> I want to work out the details first
15:22:57 <ais523> but think Underload + preprocessor + different I/O + standard libraries
15:23:06 <ehird> ais523: give me an idea for a lang
15:23:09 <ais523> with the standard libraries normally optimised by interps
15:23:18 <ais523> ehird: I have a really crazy idea for a joke lang
15:23:27 <ais523> basically, all programs are numbers
15:23:45 <ehird> all programs ARE numbers
15:23:48 <ais523> when you enter a number, it goes to anagolf, looks for the problem with that number, then takes majority opinion of the non-cheat entries for it
15:24:01 <AnMaster> ais523, well not really interesting if there is no page about the syntax
15:24:10 <AnMaster> since it is kind of hard to understand then
15:24:13 <ais523> so all sorts of well-known problems are very short
15:24:15 <ehird> Deewiant: special-casing the tests
15:24:22 <ehird> i.e. it only works on the inputs actually tested, nothing else
15:24:22 <AnMaster> I'm *NOT* going to reverse engineer that interpreter ;P
15:24:36 <ais523> AnMaster: the thing you saw above was an Underload interp, Underload's well-known
15:24:47 <ais523> Underlambda syntax is the same as for Underload, it just has a few more commands
15:24:52 <AnMaster> ais523, you talked about underlambda around the same time
15:25:02 <ehird> ais523: no it has ""
15:25:10 <ais523> but that's just preprocessor stuff
15:25:29 <ais523> it becomes ((:::***)(:::::::::::::::***************))-like stuff once it's been preprocessed
15:25:30 <ehird> btw ais523 when will you finish overload
15:25:45 <ais523> ehird: probably never, as it's probably impossible to implement in a reasonable length of time
15:25:57 <ais523> whereas for Underlambda I'm actually trying to make it optimisable and compilable
15:26:15 <ais523> Underlambda is sort of fixed-Overload, learning from the lessons of what went wrong there
15:27:01 <AnMaster> ais523, no wiki entry on overload either?
15:27:09 <ais523> no, it definitely hasn't been released
15:27:16 <ais523> Overload is the lang that Underload is a tarpit version of
15:27:29 <AnMaster> and what stuff does overload add?
15:27:42 * ehird watches AnMaster cringr
15:27:48 <ais523> well, it makes me cringe too
15:27:51 <ehird> without actually seeing him cringe, heh.
15:27:58 <AnMaster> ais523, fun, but seems like very very opposite to the underload paradigm
15:28:00 <ais523> goto + pointers + Underload is a worrying combination
15:28:08 <ais523> Overload was meant to work well in /every/ paradigm
15:28:30 <AnMaster> also I assume ehird is back on OS X
15:28:53 <ais523> [15:28] [CTCP] Received CTCP-VERSION reply from ehird: Colloquy 2.1 (3761) - Mac OS X 10.4.11 (Intel) - http://colloquy.info.
15:29:12 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway he was nicer when he was on linux
15:29:17 <AnMaster> wonder if there is any connection
15:29:29 <ais523> please, don't blow up an argument between you two now
15:29:35 <ehird> oh, AnMaster is talking about me?
15:29:40 <ais523> MOMENTOUS THINGS are happening in esolang programming
15:29:41 <ehird> i have him on /ignore, so no possibility of argument
15:30:05 <ehird> although he's pissing me off indirectly, as it happens
15:30:10 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway what are these momentus things?
15:30:18 <Asztal> and if you don't want to see an argument, you can just ignore them both!
15:30:27 <ais523> Deewiant: compilation from everything into everything else
15:30:30 <ais523> it's my goal with Underlambda
15:30:42 <ais523> to make it low-level enough for everything to be able to implement it easily
15:30:49 <ais523> but high-level enough to make it good at implementing things itself
15:30:49 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I really want to learn about it's syntax
15:30:50 <Deewiant> I suppose you'll implement every frontend and backend as well
15:31:01 <ais523> yes, that would be nice
15:31:13 <ais523> the great thing is that the frontends and backends can be implemented in any esolang to begin with
15:31:14 <ehird> you need to do underlambda->underlambda
15:31:15 <Deewiant> well, at least you have something to do
15:31:17 <ehird> and underlambda->underlambda
15:31:17 <ais523> then compiled into Underlambda
15:31:20 <ais523> ehird: I have that already
15:31:21 <AnMaster> ais523, hm what about stuff like file IO and such for funge-98?
15:31:33 <ehird> ais523: i suppose it's just cat(1)?
15:31:36 <ais523> I don't have an Underlambda interp in Underlambda
15:31:40 <ehird> you need to actually write a compiler
15:31:41 <ais523> but I do have a compiler
15:31:43 <ehird> that reduces it into simpler things
15:31:55 <ais523> atm I have an Underlambda Special -> Underlambda Core compiler
15:32:05 <ais523> (the tiers have more descriptive names now, yay)
15:32:10 <ais523> Underlambda Core is Underload minus S
15:32:37 <AnMaster> ais523, well it really locks me out since I have never seen any spec of underload
15:32:45 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
15:32:50 <ais523> Underlambda is that + a few extra commands
15:33:02 <AnMaster> ais523, they have too similar name
15:33:08 <ais523> ehird has seen an older version but I changed most of the extra commands since
15:33:12 <ais523> so really you're in the same boat
15:33:50 <AnMaster> ais523, well what makes it easy? And since you said it should be possible to compile anything to it, what about Funge-98 with SOCK and FILE and such?
15:33:51 <ais523> Q/(((!(a(:^)*):^)):)~^
15:33:52 <ais523> n/((a(^!^)a~*(^!^)a*a((^~!^)()(^!^))a*~^)((e%)S))~^
15:33:56 <ais523> */((~!*(^!^))((e%)S))~^
15:33:58 <ais523> ~/((~!~(^!^)~(^!^))((e%)S))~^
15:33:59 <ais523> a/((a(^!^)a*a(:(^!^)a~*a~(^~!^)a~*a*~^)*(^!^))((e%)S))~^
15:34:01 <ais523> :/((:(^!^)~(^!^))((e%)S))~^
15:34:04 <ais523> )/)(^!^)):(^!^)a~*a~(^~!^)a~*a*~^
15:34:10 <ais523> I'm planning to stick to BF-complete I/O for the grand translation
15:34:24 <ais523> AnMaster: the same I/O capabilities brainfuck has
15:34:28 <ais523> anyway, see my paste above
15:34:36 <ais523> it's an Underlambda -> Underlambda compiler
15:34:42 <ais523> written as an Underlambda header file
15:34:57 <ais523> think: Underlambda before the slash, Underload afterwards
15:35:09 <ais523> although the (e%)S is just a placeholder for an error routine atm, I'm not sure what to do on error
15:35:36 <AnMaster> ais523, well are those all the extra commands underlambda add?
15:35:48 <ais523> Q and n are two of the special commands it adds
15:35:53 <AnMaster> also if it is added to fungot, what would the command be? ^ul is in use
15:35:54 <fungot> AnMaster: unless they're pixel hunting games. i designed my own gui in sdl was too slow.
15:35:56 <ais523> # means "start of program"
15:36:03 <ais523> and Underlambda abbreviates to udl
15:36:06 <ais523> that's the file extension
15:36:23 <ais523> maybe I should start calling it Uddle, it would be easier to remember separately from Underload
15:36:42 <AnMaster> ais523, so what about other IO than just bf-complete ones?
15:37:02 <ais523> AnMaster: that doesn't interest me as much from a programming point of view, because mathematically it makes no difference
15:37:08 <ais523> as you can always use something like PSOX
15:37:56 <ais523> hmm, it seems like this is a good day for cross-language esolang interpretation: "Brainfuck interpreter written in [[Redivider]] by [[User:MizardX]]."
15:38:15 <ais523> from the wiki recent changes
15:38:18 <ais523> I haven't had a look at it
15:38:28 <ais523> Date:Friday 14 November 2008 00:58
15:38:30 <ehird> ihope will be pleased
15:38:33 <ais523> so today if you use the UTC sense
15:38:56 <ehird> but i'm calling him ihope
15:39:00 <ehird> as he has various monikers that he's used here
15:39:05 <ehird> ihope, dogface, warrie, perhaps more
15:39:10 <ehird> iirc he used something else on sine, too
15:40:06 <AnMaster> hm this Redivider, what paradigm?
15:40:15 <AnMaster> I can't figure out from a quick look at the wiki page
15:40:42 <ais523> link for me to click on: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider
15:40:51 <MizardX> Probably string rewriting...
15:41:13 <AnMaster> so what is all that about parsers then
15:41:49 <ais523> I don't think it's rewriting, it looks to me more like a procedural lang that uses regexen and strings as the main data type
15:42:09 <ehird> i know because i was there when it was inventedd
15:42:21 <ais523> so, effectively a procedural lang, but with backtracking
15:42:56 <AnMaster> there are no examples of hello world and such either
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15:43:09 <ais523> going for a while (moving to a different connection); I'll be back soon
15:43:16 <MizardX> Limited back-tracking. Only if the first item in a block fails. Any other, and the program breaks.
15:43:28 <AnMaster> MizardX, what does hello world look like?
15:44:17 <AnMaster> MizardX, so main: have a special meaning? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider doesn't mention that
15:44:28 <ehird> hee, i was the one who made ihope make ()s optional
15:44:37 <MizardX> It doesn't say anything about how to invoke the program.
15:44:40 <ehird> and also told him what the [] vs () stuff should be like.
15:45:03 <ehird> MizardX-: main, I think
15:45:05 <ehird> name a parser main
15:45:43 <MizardX> In the parser I wrote in python, I made it so that the user have to specify what predicate to start with.
15:46:03 <ehird> just make it run main with a string being stdin, and print the result
15:46:09 <ehird> iirc that's what we decided on
15:47:12 <ehird> also, post your interp! I was gonan write one once
15:47:17 <ehird> Should the language allow multiple declarations with same name, but different argument counts? (Overloading) --MizardX 00:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
15:47:29 <ehird> What do do when trying to call a declaration while a variable shadows it's name? --MizardX 00:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
15:47:29 <ehird> ^ try to call the variable, and fail if it's not a parser
15:47:35 <ehird> How to run the "program"? E.g. select a starting predicate and an input string. --MizardX 00:08, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
15:47:35 <ehird> ^ i just told you this one
15:47:39 <ehird> Shouldn't <wexpr> "[" <piexpr> "]" have it's own non-terminal? --MizardX 00:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
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15:58:28 <MizardX> I made it so that it reads from stdin if no input file was specified. python redivider.py bf.rd helloworld.bf
15:58:46 <MizardX> Where could I upload the code?
15:59:56 <MizardX> Was that directed at me? Or you welcoming yourself back? ais523
16:00:04 <ais523> it's me welcoming myself back
16:00:07 <ais523> because I'm on a bouncer
16:00:11 <ais523> people can't tell if I'm here if I don't
16:00:35 <ais523> well, except by pinging now and again just in case
16:00:45 <ais523> or polling some other way
16:08:50 <MizardX> Well... until other arrangements can be made: http://snippets.dzone.com/posts/show/6506 -- Redivider interpreter written in Python
16:09:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:09:14 <ais523> MizardX: is that yours?
16:09:29 -!- Ilari has joined.
16:10:08 <MizardX> Maybe should add 'by MizardX'...
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16:59:23 <AquaLoqua> Deewiant, what constitues big in terms of primes?
16:59:39 <ais523> AquaLoqua: it depends on what you need big primes for
16:59:57 <Deewiant> Well, the GIMPS guys have some pretty big primes :-P
17:00:14 <Deewiant> 13 million digits being the record, I think
17:00:20 <AquaLoqua> Well, I need them for no real reson reall. But would this be considered big/large: 3^7989-2?
17:00:44 <ais523> I'd say a prime's big if writing it out by digits over IRC is a bad idea
17:01:13 <Deewiant> I'd say a prime's big if it takes over a day to factorize it
17:01:33 <AquaLoqua> Heh, well, it's only 3812 idigits long, so be GIMPS standards that's nothing
17:01:39 <ais523> Deewiant: primes are trivial to factorise, if you know in advance they're primes
17:01:51 <AquaLoqua> well, does it count if it took *me* a day to find? :P
17:01:56 <Deewiant> ais523: of course you're not supposed to know :-P
17:02:21 <ais523> also, determining if a number is prime can be done in P-time nowadays, determining its factors if it isn't can't be
17:02:32 <AquaLoqua> But how does one factorise a prime, being the product of itself and one
17:02:57 <ais523> quite a recent algorithm, discovered only a couple of years ago IIRC
17:03:08 -!- Mony has joined.
17:03:22 <AquaLoqua> (ais523, isn't only probabilistic? And still a conjecture of sorts?)
17:03:47 <ais523> AquaLoqua: no, I think it was a definite algorithm, it doesn't tell you the factors though if it isn't
17:04:45 <AquaLoqua> Any links ais523? Hell, if it's faster than Miller-Rabin (7 iters) and it's not probab.. [that word] then I'd be better off with it
17:05:04 <ais523> Mony: http://paste.eso-std.org/k
17:05:10 <ais523> AquaLoqua: it was in New Scientist IIRC
17:05:38 <AquaLoqua> hrmm, I hope they have archives :P
17:05:45 <ais523> I'm trying to find the original paper
17:05:49 <ais523> Mony: Underload interp in Thue
17:06:22 <ais523> AquaLoqua: http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/manindra/algebra/primality_v6.pdf
17:06:27 <ais523> is the paper that described the algorithm
17:07:10 <ais523> the algorithm itself is on the middle of page 3
17:07:35 <AquaLoqua> Copy that, thanks (thought it was this: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg17523560.500-prime-number-puzzle-solved-at-last.html - but seeing as I don't subscribe I can't tell)
17:09:08 <Ilari> The algorithm (AKS primality test) is fully determistic polynomial time algorithm. But the exponents and constants involved are pretty bad (at least unless GRH is true)...
17:10:15 <Ilari> General Rieman Hypothesis... Note that there later refiniments of the algorithm are asymptotically faster...
17:11:09 <Ilari> IIRC, latest versions are O(beta^6)...
17:12:16 <AquaLoqua> Well, either way, it's a whole let better than the exponential growth for remainder tests
17:12:55 <Ilari> For crypto-grade prime numbers, Miller-Rabin is pretty much the only way to go...
17:12:59 <AquaLoqua> (Which I don't use though, way too slow in comparison to non-deterministic methods that yield acceptable results)
17:13:16 <AquaLoqua> Yeah, that's what I'm using :P But I find I have to validate the larger results
17:13:50 <Ilari> AquaLoqua: Just run enough iterations?
17:13:53 <AquaLoqua> raed somewhere that beyond 7 or so iters. Miller-Rabin has no visible difference in accuracy for numbers with less than 3000 digits
17:14:45 <AquaLoqua> So, I'm not so keen on idly running cycles.. But, it may be worth it as this last one broke the 3000 mark
17:15:50 <Ilari> AquaLoqua: For 7 iters, the probability for false positive is 0.006%...
17:16:28 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p441626313.txt <<< currently compiling this to subleg and running, it does +++>++.<.
17:16:48 <ais523> is that a subleq deriviative
17:16:54 <oklopol> wanted to finish it before saying anything, but as i'm leaving now, i better tell you so i have some incentive to finish it.
17:17:06 <oklopol> err that's just what i hacked up to make it easier to code in subleg.
17:17:06 <AquaLoqua> Heh, I see. Well, I didn't know that one, hrmm, well then I guess it's mroe than enough for the numbers I'm likely to ever reach (having taking a day or so to find 3^7989-2
17:17:43 <oklopol> . means next instruction, #number means the memory slot with offset "number" from current instruction
17:18:04 <oklopol> these are trivial to compile
17:18:55 <oklopol> will do [ and ] tonight, after which it's trivial to do bf -> subleq.
17:19:14 <Ilari> AquaLoqua: Real prime number finding algorithms probably first do some trial divisions (because you can test a lot of divisiors faster than doing one round of MR, and such tests eliminate a lot of composites).
17:19:34 <ais523> this is getting really good for the compile-everything-into-everything-else project
17:19:38 <oklopol> just wanted to compile something to something because that seems to be the hot stuff today.
17:19:49 <ais523> as bf compiles into lots of things, I just need an Underlambda to BF compiler to simplify half the work
17:19:52 <oklopol> also god i love esolanging
17:20:04 <ais523> and that should be simple enough, given that an Underload interp exists in BF which loads all its input in advance
17:20:14 <ais523> (thus you could simply hardcode the input to get a compiler, bundle-an-interp style)
17:20:51 <oklopol> so we'd get underload -> subleq
17:21:03 <ais523> and underlambda -> subleq
17:21:07 <ais523> via my underlambda -> underlambda compiler
17:21:16 <oklopol> someone should make a program that had all the compilers, and found the shortest paths between compilations for two given languages.
17:21:19 <oklopol> and then did the compilation
17:21:25 <oklopol> given code and the language names
17:21:26 <AquaLoqua> Heh, yeah, again, I do that. Trial div by all primes less than 100 000. It's fast, sotred as a constant array and so it does end up cathcing most candidates out rather fast. I gues I should really add odd/even filtering, but I'm not sure if a power of three minus two can be odd (you're probably about to dig up a trivial example of that Ilari). Then again, code denisty vs overall efficiancy
17:21:37 <ais523> anyway, I think Underlambda Special is sufficiently easy to implement that normally it wouldn't need compiling to Underlambda Core first
17:21:40 <oklopol> that's trivial, but might be neat.
17:21:54 <ais523> but the option's there just in case
17:22:27 <oklopol> also you could kinda tell it how fast compilers are and it could use that as heuristics (== edge costs) when searching for the compilation sequence.
17:22:34 <Ilari> AquaLoqua: Power of 3 must be odd, because 2 can't divide it since 2 and 3 are both primes. So 3^n-2 is odd.
17:22:43 <ais523> oklopol: sounds like a great followup project
17:23:07 <oklopol> ais523: yes, but that won't take me much more than 30 minutes
17:23:18 <ais523> but I mean, working on optimising the compilers
17:23:23 <ais523> and creating more links
17:23:31 <ais523> e.g. a direct compilation is better than bundle-an-interp, usually
17:23:31 <oklopol> it's just dijkstra + some abstraction + some file stuff
17:23:40 <oklopol> abstraction for getting the graph
17:24:13 <oklopol> we're going to change the world.
17:24:24 <AquaLoqua> yay, then my gamble paid off. Heh, Ilari you are but the bearer of good news (had I gone Mersenne Primes though, it would've been different - then again there would've the Lucas-Lehmer I could've used, but why bother, there's already a GIMPS)
17:24:53 <oklopol> but, i need to go listen to music and drink alcohol, if i still remember how to do that.
17:24:54 <ais523> http://paste.eso-std.org/l <--- the output of my Underlambda -> Underload compiler for a very simple program
17:25:25 <ais523> the program was (x)(y)(z)((X)(Y)(Z))(!)I
17:25:51 <ais523> but that's what it ends up like when all the machinery to support the I command is added
17:26:14 <oklopol> hmm. actually the compiler could be a bit more complicated, like try multiple compilation paths and find the shortest code produced.
17:26:34 <oklopol> could use A* and have the heuristic given for each compiler to choose the order in which to try.
17:26:49 <ais523> has anyone started to read my paste above, btw?
17:27:04 <ais523> that's why I want people to implement Underlambda Special, not Underlambda Core (which is a subset of Underload apart from I/O)
17:27:20 <Asztal> I did, but then I decided that it's clearly not designed for making the compiled programs readable :P
17:27:46 <ais523> it's sort of like chroot
17:27:49 <ais523> it takes the top stack element
17:27:52 <ais523> and converts it to a stack
17:27:57 <ais523> and uses that stack temporarily
17:28:04 <ais523> then once the command's finished, it goes back to the original stack
17:28:17 <ais523> so ((X)(Y)(Z))(!)I is equivalent to ((X)(Y))
17:29:11 <oklopol> takes the top stack element
17:29:21 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure that's not what you meant.
17:29:25 <ais523> infra takes a program and a stack as its args
17:29:30 <ais523> so the stack is ((X)(Y)(Z))
17:29:33 <ais523> and the program is (!)
17:29:45 <ais523> ((X)(Y)(Z)!) is ((X)(Y))
17:29:53 <oklopol> what's the use? i don't have time to think
17:30:02 <ais523> not a lot in basic Underload
17:30:09 <ais523> as you could just have used * instead
17:30:18 <ais523> but it's good for getting the length of a list, for instance
17:30:27 <ais523> by seeing how many elements are in the resulting stack
17:30:30 <ais523> also things like sandboxing
17:30:40 <oklopol> works nicely with that, methinks
17:30:45 <ais523> it's implemented using it
17:31:39 <oklopol> what happens when you run outta stack?
17:31:50 <oklopol> is that where you see the difference between that and *^?
17:31:50 <ais523> it prints e% and then starts acting randomly
17:32:06 <ais523> but the compiler would be easy to modify
17:32:10 <oklopol> well then i don't see what the difference between that and *^ is
17:32:11 <ais523> to do proper stack checks
17:32:15 <ais523> hmm... even exceptions, for that matter
17:32:28 <ais523> it's not a program that uses the power of I
17:32:33 <ais523> just a proof-of-concept
17:32:52 <ais523> for instance, say you want to take the head of a list
17:33:08 <ais523> and A! clears the stack
17:34:48 <ais523> not easy to do at all without infra
17:35:11 <ais523> (A is the ultra command btw, it's sort of the opposite of infra, it wraps the entire stack in () as opposed to a which just wraps the top element in ())
17:36:52 <oklopol> my stack terminology is a bit rusty.
17:37:01 <ais523> oklopol: temporarily remove the top element of the stack, run the command, and put it back again
17:37:13 <Asztal> not a typo for dup then :)
17:37:23 <ais523> e.g. (a)(b)(c)(~)_ is equivalent to (b)(a)(c)
17:37:49 <oklopol> why isn't it just :^ in underload?
17:38:00 <ais523> :^ runs something with itself as an argument
17:38:11 <ais523> (a)(b)(c)(~):^ is quite different to (a)(b)(c)~a*^
17:39:18 <oklopol> i just realized i'm not in any kind of hurry yet
17:39:27 <oklopol> i'll try to quickly implement [ and ]
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17:54:23 <oklopol> lol, ended up debuggin my dec :P
17:55:40 <oklopol> inc/dec are three instructions, fetch mempointer, use that mempointer to inc/dec using a constant one or negative one, then normalize the middle instruction
17:56:00 <oklopol> because the memory access is done by setting it's output parameter to mempointer
17:56:07 <oklopol> quite an obvious construction
17:56:29 <oklopol> i had the code for inc, and changed it to sub without thinking too much
17:57:00 <oklopol> i actually set the middle instruction's destination register to -memorypointer, and incremented it, instead of setting it to memorypointer and decrementing it
17:57:17 <oklopol> perhaps i should make my debug output show the code, not the assembly instructions
18:02:20 <oklopol> the while loop is less trivial than i thought, at least if i want it to be as short as possible.
18:02:38 <oklopol> i initially assumed i'd just write it without thinking
18:08:18 <oklopol> at least nontrivial the way i'm doing all memory action
18:08:31 <oklopol> that is, rewriting parts of instructions to refer to memory cells
18:08:38 <oklopol> the problem is, i need to erase that info
18:08:55 <oklopol> for which i either need a loop or i need to know what i added to the value.
18:09:05 <ais523> could you erase them immediately after each instruction is run?
18:09:07 <oklopol> and if i do some sorta jump, it's not that easy to know what was removed
18:09:11 <ais523> as in, have the instructions self-resetting?
18:10:03 <oklopol> i can just subtract the register from itself xD
18:10:12 <oklopol> seriously, that never occurred to me
18:24:49 <ais523> oklopol: just goto the end of it and you have a while
18:26:37 <oklopol> that was misleading, that was very helpful, i was going to make a separate ==0 logic.
18:27:02 <oklopol> although i probably would've realized that's stupid at some point.
18:28:08 <oklopol> okay, i've basically done bf now.
18:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I won't it to be challenging... puzzle-like..
18:48:00 <ais523> oklopol: ah, a topic reference?
18:48:05 <ais523> bf -> subleq is nice, anyway
18:48:10 <ais523> bf -> lots of things is nice
18:48:24 <ais523> as Underlambda -> bf should be relatively easy
18:50:12 <oklopol> i'm naming this language subleg, because it's almost subleq, and because i always typo it to subleg anyway.
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18:56:47 <psygnisfive> i read a bit of what you were talking about
18:56:49 <oklopol> hmm. something's not working
18:57:29 <oklopol> psygnisfive: it was about the finnish word "joka", a relative pronoun
18:57:40 <oklopol> refers to whatever is directly on the left of it, in the usual case
18:57:51 <oklopol> we argued about whether you can change the referent using another pronoun.
18:58:11 <oklopol> because why would finns agree on something like that, it's a craaaaaazy language
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18:58:38 <ais523> lots of esodevelopments today
18:59:01 <psygnisfive> where you give the program a set of semantic predicates and it builds a sentence out of them
19:00:06 <ais523> oerjan: we now have almost a BF -> Subleq compiler (oklopol), a BF -> Redivider compiler (MizardX) and an Underload interp in Thue (ais523)
19:01:05 <ais523> not bad for a day's work
19:01:46 <ais523> my interp is very slow, it took 11 seconds to run the stock Hello World program IIRC
19:01:47 <oerjan> still, all of those would have been more impressive in the opposite direction
19:02:03 <ais523> Subleq -> BF shouldn't be too hard
19:06:48 <oklopol> run(bftosubleg("++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+..-."),False,[])
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19:07:56 <oklopol> yes yes, SUBLEq with Great extra syntax
19:08:43 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p432311255.txt this is the generated program
19:08:44 <oerjan> MizardX: hm from ais523's interpreter i take it paste.eso-std.org takes pretty big pastes. since you asked where to put things yesterday.
19:09:07 <ais523> oerjan: what do you think by the way? it's mostly generated code, after all
19:09:13 <ais523> and I think paste.eso-std.org takes unlimited pastes
19:10:26 <oerjan> you'll have to ask him how permanent it is i guess...
19:10:58 <ais523> by grace of ehird, I suspect
19:11:14 <ehird> entirely permannet
19:11:20 <oerjan> ais523: what about, OMFG IT'S HUGE
19:11:55 <ehird> unless i become physically or mentally unable to maintain eso-std.org, there is data loss, or I die and nobody takes it over, paste.eso-std.org links should stay up.
19:12:02 <ehird> (or everyone stops using HTTP)
19:12:46 <MizardX> There, http://paste.eso-std.org/q
19:12:47 <ais523> oerjan: it's mostly generated code
19:13:08 <ais523> due to the large variety of characters that could occur in an Underload program
19:13:13 <ais523> I have some ideas as to how to optimise it, though
19:13:21 <ais523> representing characters in binary, rather than literally
19:13:29 <ais523> or even better, Huffman codes
19:13:56 <oerjan> ah thue has no way of doing wildcards i guess
19:14:01 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p622341536.txt <<< if anyone is interested in the code
19:14:13 <oklopol> that's one of the cleanest pieces of code i've ever written
19:14:32 <oklopol> (i'm not saying it's readable though.)
19:15:04 <oklopol> well, actually i'm not compiling subleg into subleq
19:15:18 <oklopol> i modified it a bit, because i felt like it.
19:15:19 <ais523> I am interested but probably I'll read it later
19:15:29 <ais523> we need a Python -> esolang compiler
19:15:33 <oklopol> basically, if you subtract from -1, the value subtracted is printed
19:15:39 <ais523> so we can use all the esolang interps written in Python
19:15:48 <oklopol> if you jump to -1, the execution ends
19:16:03 <ehird> """ % {'file':__file__}
19:16:13 <oklopol> i don't have input in the bf compiler yet, but if you subtract -1 from something, you're actually subtracting user input
19:16:54 <oklopol> i can write a small spec for subleg if anyone is interested, although it's not exactly that interesting.
19:17:19 <oklopol> actually that whole thing isn't all that interesting, it was quite trivial to make
19:17:38 <oklopol> just a lot of work, mainly because i'm too stubborn to make debugging easy for myself :P
19:18:15 <oklopol> but yeah oerjan is right, the other way would be more impressibe
19:18:30 <oklopol> unfortunately that is... incredibly hard.
19:19:17 <MizardX> ehird: They are the same, and __file__ would work even if the interpeter is called from another module. (Why you would do that I don't know)
19:19:37 <ehird> MizardX: they are not the same:
19:19:48 <ehird> import foobar; foobar.main(sys.argv)
19:19:59 <ehird> e.g. setuptools essentially does that, but with 5000 levels of indirection
19:20:09 <ehird> __file__ is the code file that it's contained in, sys.argv[0] is the program that was run
19:21:58 <ais523> oklopol: it would probably be relatively easy based on what I've done for gcc-bf already
19:22:44 <MizardX> ehird: I wouldn't know if the file in sys.argv[0] supports the arguments passed. I do know that the file in __file__ does.
19:23:42 <MizardX> I could move the syntax-message to the "if __name__ == '__main__'" block instead...
19:24:07 <oklopol> ais523: well it's just the pointer stuff that's hard in both those.
19:24:17 <ais523> oklopol: I have code to handle pointers already, I think
19:24:21 <ais523> but it's very inefficient
19:24:31 <ais523> is subleq TC, by the way?
19:24:36 <ais523> or does it have limited memory?
19:24:43 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/subleq
19:24:56 <oklopol> my implementation has bignums, i assumed it always does
19:25:28 <oklopol> yeah, can't be tc withouth bignums ofc
19:25:41 <ais523> I was wondering if it used relative pointers or something
19:25:53 <ais523> ok, probably not all that easy to compile into a non-bignum version of TC
19:25:59 <ais523> but my BF -> Underload compiler uses bignums
19:26:07 <ais523> (although it doesn't handle input)
19:26:40 <ais523> it's just a nice link to have
19:26:47 <ais523> if you're compiling subleq into underload, for instance
19:26:54 <ais523> you could compile subleq -> bignum bf -> underload
19:28:53 <oklopol> that i did bf->subleq and not the other way around was due to a random choice.
19:29:09 <oklopol> i just took the first two language names that popped to mind
19:29:17 <ais523> I was going to ask why subleq in particular
19:29:20 <oklopol> turned out to happen to be a trivial compilation.
19:29:23 <ais523> hmm... someone should update http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters
19:30:25 <oklopol> god i love making interpreters and compiling languages to another
19:31:05 <ais523> although ideally the compiler should itself be in an esolang
19:31:14 <ais523> how hard would it be to translate your compiler to something high-level like INTERCAL?
19:31:31 <oklopol> i don't know, i don't know intercal.
19:31:35 <oklopol> but that would be a great way to learn
19:33:59 <fizzie> I've got that befunge-underload at least, which is not mentioned in that table. Although it was a trivial thing too.
19:34:24 <oklopol> okay, time to go get drunk with a few friends.
19:34:26 <ais523> fizzie: hmm... I'll have to get you to adapt it to befunge-underlambda when I finish speccing underlabmda
19:37:02 <fizzie> I wonder if underload.b98 counts; it's Funge-98 (thanks to use of STRN), strictly speaking not Befunge.
19:37:17 <ais523> well, it's a different lang
19:37:23 <ais523> but Funge-98 is definitely an esolang
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20:33:06 <oerjan> +ul ((h)(m)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~a*~:^):^
20:34:00 <oerjan> +ul ((h)(m)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
20:34:01 <thutubot> hmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmh ...too much output!
20:35:05 <oerjan> +ul ((0)(1)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
20:35:07 <thutubot> 0110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110100101100110100101101001100101100110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110 ...too much output!
20:35:19 <ais523> oklopol: I'm wondering why you're running that particular program
20:35:59 <oerjan> also, it's a well-known sequence
20:39:13 <ais523> is that Keymaker's Thue-Morse in Underload?
20:39:59 <oerjan> if so, purely by coincidence :D
20:40:36 <ais523> Keymaker definitely wrote one, I'm wondering if it's the same one or if you reimplemented it yourself
20:41:11 <ais523> +ul (:^)(~()~((1)Sa~a*~(~:^:^)*~^)~((0)Sa~a*~(:^~:^)*~^~)~S!!~:^):^
20:41:25 <ais523> hmm... must have mispasted
20:41:51 <ais523> +ul (:^)(~()~((1)Sa~a*~(~:^:^)*~^)~((0)Sa~a*~(:^~:^)*~^~)~^(/)S!!~:^):^
20:41:53 <thutubot> 0/01/0110/01101001/0110100110010110/01101001100101101001011001101001/0110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110/0110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110100101100110100101101001100101100110100110010110100 ...too much output!
20:42:01 <oerjan> i was slightly inspired by a fibonacci i saw, i think (putting the initial pair in a list)
20:42:06 <ais523> I missed that it had a literal newline in a string, I changed it to /
20:43:11 <oerjan> that looks like a sequence of increasing parts of the thue-morse sequence
20:45:47 <oerjan> oh it's just on the talk page
20:47:16 <ais523> oerjan: http://koti.mbnet.fi/~yiap/programs/underload/
20:47:42 <ais523> +ul (*/*/*/)S(*)::(a~a*~a*~a*^a~a:*~*^*:(/)*Sa~a*~a*^a~a~*~a*~a*^:^):^
20:47:43 <thutubot> */*/*/**/**/***/****/*****/*******/*********/************/****************/*********************/****************************/*************************************/ ...too much output!
20:47:45 <oerjan> that one fails to load
20:47:53 <ais523> really? it works for me
20:48:02 <ais523> it's a directory listing of Keymaker's underload programs
20:52:08 * oerjan adds that link to the article proper
20:53:21 <oerjan> what in the world are the numbers in that sequence?
20:54:52 <ais523> oerjan: it's the Padovan sequence
20:55:02 <ais523> I'm going to give a random link to Wikipedia, then click on it
20:55:05 <ais523> [[w:Padovan sequence]]
20:55:08 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=Padovan_sequence
20:55:37 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padovan_sequence
20:55:46 <ais523> blame Konversation not me
20:55:51 <ehird> that's a reasonable thing to do
20:55:56 <ais523> my link does go to the right place, after all...
20:56:28 <ais523> it's like a dipped version of Fibonnacci, it seems
20:56:59 <ais523> there's also the Perrin sequence, which is defined the same way except it starts 3 0 2
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22:16:34 <AnMaster> ais523, how goes ick, gcc-bf, feather and so on?
22:17:26 * oerjan looks at ais523 juggling a huge number of balls
22:17:39 <ais523> AnMaster: actually I've been working on Underlambda
22:23:28 <ehird> * oerjan looks at ais523 juggling a huge number of balls
22:23:30 <ehird> get your own channel.
22:23:51 <ais523> AnMaster: I also wrote an Underload interp in Thue, I think I told you that already though
22:24:49 <ehird> oerjan: I was making a HILARIOUS INNUENDO
22:25:10 <fizzie> Like juggling esoteric balls in variable gravity.
22:25:26 <oerjan> YOU ALL KNOW I HATE PUNS
22:25:27 <ais523> ehird: it was a very bad innuendo
22:25:40 <ais523> oerjan: I'm not certain I believe you on that...
22:25:40 <ehird> ais523: Shut up, ball-juggler.
22:25:51 <ais523> and Thutubot agrees with me, just has no way of indicating that
22:26:02 <fizzie> fungot: Do you agree? Y/N?
22:26:02 <fungot> fizzie: i don't rename variables, i would like to
22:26:57 <optbot> ehird: The only time when you would explicitly wait for a box to be filled is when you branched based on its value.
22:27:00 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but; moreso.
22:28:55 <fungot> fizzie: what was the 4d about? srfi 15?
22:29:25 <oerjan> scheme is such a srfing language
22:29:52 <fungot> AnMaster: i'm just going to say, you probably want is pair-for-each from srfi 1?) would justify the fnord!
22:30:14 <oerjan> fizzie: just because i'm such a masochist, i made a pun
22:31:25 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
22:31:42 <oerjan> fungot: what's that about?
22:31:43 <fungot> oerjan: no, it's him. you hit him. instead, press button and wait for the authorities to arrive. maybe you could tell me why your game is a kart racer? yeah. that shouldn't be a problem.
22:32:28 <oerjan> fungot: argle bargle, glop glyf
22:32:28 <fungot> oerjan: tomselleck_666: what are you two fairies up to? ( yes is ticked). we'll only need it for the day." so i ask him what their pings are. they're all over the place.
22:32:54 <oerjan> hm it's some other irc channel?
22:33:36 <fungot> Selected style: fisher
22:33:43 <oerjan> fungot: how is that fishy
22:33:44 <fungot> oerjan: ye- yeah it's interesting ah so we're supposed to talk
22:34:12 <oerjan> fungot: is it that conversation thing?
22:34:12 <fungot> oerjan: ( ( well see i dialed
22:34:21 <fizzie> "pa" is Penny Arcade comics.
22:34:31 <fizzie> And Fisher is the telephoen conversation corpus.
22:35:01 <fungot> ais523: it is and doesn't give a computed `next' stack is the c-intercal version 0.26 ( both the intercal program, but may not appear to have the right software, it's very important to make more memory available to intercal exist, all commands of any of the resulting threads backtrack; this is most likely, this means that you have the correct emulation mode for the full text of the mechanisms available for free for other syntax
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22:35:42 <oerjan> um it's esoteric but not the same as irc?
22:35:50 <fungot> AnMaster: 7.3 next, forget and resume to that of the result), and the least significant bit is the same name. it's written like an ordinary `abstain' and `reinstate' that point on a whim did an ubuntu package search for ' intercal' and `.2/.1' together cause `.1' to `gcc' is
22:35:56 <ais523> oerjan: it's from the INTERCAL revamped manual, IIRC
22:36:11 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
22:36:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, idea show the current one too?
22:38:42 <fungot> oerjan: ang. neere byrnan wood shall we well meet them, and they, stand in assured loss. take up, boy; open't. so, now go with, do miscarrie, thou had'st bin resolute pompey
22:39:36 <GregorR> Hmmmmmm ... does something have to be a plant to be a vegetable?
22:39:59 <GregorR> Are mushrooms vegetables? Is fried algae a vegetable?
22:40:45 <ais523> algae are plants, normally, though, aren't they
22:40:51 <ais523> apart from cyanobacteria which aren't algae really
22:41:15 <oerjan> i think divisions get fishy at that level
22:41:28 <oerjan> (although fishes are not plants)
22:41:57 <oerjan> wp claims green algae are plants
22:42:18 <oerjan> "Most algae are no longer classified within the Kingdom Plantae"
22:43:20 <GregorR> And yet, I would call red algae (a delicacy amongst no one) a vegetable
22:45:08 * oerjan isn't sure whether that means it is or isn't a delicacy
22:45:26 <ais523> to nobody, it's a delicacy
22:45:34 <ais523> that means that it's really really rare for it to be a delicacy
22:45:39 <ais523> therefore, in the abstract, it's a delicacy
22:45:46 <ais523> just it isn't a delicacy to anyone in particular
22:45:50 <oerjan> i'm sure some fish disagree
22:46:14 <GregorR> WP says people eat Cyanobacteria
22:46:22 <GregorR> And that's most CERTAINLY not a plant.
22:46:34 <fizzie> I think it's more interesting if you have to guess. (In any case the current style isn't actually stored anywhere, just the corresponding file names. Though it would just mean extracting stuff after the last '.'.
22:48:48 <fungot> ehird: bianca. and may through all the worlds new fashion planted, that hath so much ouerborne her, that she which marries you, must in your allowance o'reway a whole theater of others. god keep me from their worse then killing lust, and wak'd halfe dead with nothing. worthy martius, had we no other quarrel else to rome, and when you are gentle, you shall not
22:55:35 <oerjan> " Mushrooms belong to the biological kingdom Fungi, not the plant kingdom, and yet they are also generally considered to be vegetables, at least in the retail industry"
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23:04:48 <fizzie> Couldn't resist one improvement.
23:04:53 <fungot> Selected style: ircR(IRCglogs ofefreenode/#esoteric,efreenode/#schemedandcircnet/#douglasadams)
23:05:04 <fungot> Selected style: icI(INTERCALamanual)
23:05:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
23:05:13 <fungot> Selected style: wp1(1/256thfoflalliWikipediaT"Talk:"anamespaceapages)
23:05:25 <fizzie> They've all got descriptions, but the list wasn't cleared properly.
23:05:27 <ais523> fizzie: it's almost right except the text in the parens is garbled
23:05:32 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:05:41 <ais523> it's like typical fungot babble
23:05:55 <fizzie> It's just that the spaces were filled with some other older stuff.
23:06:16 -!- fungot has joined.
23:06:25 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
23:06:36 <fizzie> Thre, now it's boring again.
23:07:31 <fizzie> Just used ^code + 'i' to load the updated list (with descriptions) and forgot that it won't clear those parts that had spaces in them.
23:07:34 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
23:07:44 <ehird> fizzie: add ELIZA dialog
23:08:11 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
23:08:34 <fizzie> I think darwin still has that problem with smileys, though.
23:09:09 <fizzie> fungot: Don't you think Darwin's writings would've been a lot better if he had just used a bit less of the ":)" sign?
23:09:09 <fungot> fizzie: leersia oryzoides. pollen-grains :). odorata. palustris. roxburghiana. ruppii. sylvatica. tricolor.
23:09:40 <fizzie> I'm surprised anyone took him seriously like that.
23:10:22 <Slereah_> optbot, make a better topic of conversation
23:10:23 <optbot> Slereah_: not being nested
23:10:35 <Slereah_> What is your opinion on not being nested, people?
23:10:52 <fizzie> It's a sad state of affairs, not being nested.
23:10:57 <fizzie> Everyone should have a nest.
23:11:40 <oerjan> but twigs are so rough to sleep on!
23:11:41 <fizzie> Is that like the INFORMATION SUPERHIGHNEST?
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23:13:19 <ehird> fizzie: did he actually say :)
23:13:41 <fizzie> No, it's just a bug my scripts used to have.
23:13:54 <Slereah_> I should finish the functions for Mulambda
23:14:17 <fizzie> Currently it maps the words "a" and "the" into ":)" and "/".
23:14:25 <ehird> fizzie: haha, what
23:15:24 <fizzie> The script I used filtered unused tokens away, and darwin didn't use all my punctuation (":)" and ":(", most likely) so the last two token numbers that used to be punctuation in the IRC logs were given to the two most common words, "a" and "the".
23:15:40 <fizzie> But fungot's Funge-coded tokens-to-text part has the punctuation stuff hardcoded, so...
23:15:40 <fungot> fizzie: on september 14, 1862 page 721.) that/ main part :) his letter dated march 10th, 1871.
23:16:18 <fizzie> The current version of the data-eating script doesn't have that bug any longer, I just haven't rebuilt those .darwin data files.
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23:23:05 <Slereah_> Sometimes, I think it would be easier to write mulambda in Lazy Bird D:
23:23:15 <Slereah_> At least there's a functional thing!
23:24:39 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure what sort of "functional language" features Scheme would be missing; and as far as syntax is concerned, it's got quite nice macros.
23:25:19 <Slereah_> Just annoying for what I'm looking for
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00:30:04 <GregorR> http://www.new.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30185035&l=998b5&id=1055580469 I AM THE FIRST WAVE OF THE ZOMBIE INVASION
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00:36:46 <thutubot> kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru kuru ...too much output!
00:37:49 <oerjan> +ul ((ku)(ru)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
00:37:50 <thutubot> kururukurukukururukukurukururukurukukurukururukukururukurukukururukukurukururukukururukurukukurukururukurukukururukukurukururukurukukurukururukukururukurukukurukururukurukukururukukurukururukukururukurukukururukukurukururukurukukurukururukukururukurukukuru ...too much output!
00:40:43 <thutubot> desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu ...too much output!
00:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hm.
00:42:48 <thutubot> optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! optbot! ...too much output!
00:42:48 <optbot> thutubot: seems it succeeds
00:44:56 <GregorR> http://www.new.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30185038&id=1055580469&saved I improved my Zombiism.
00:45:38 <Slereah_> This content is currently unavailable
00:45:53 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ha.
00:46:05 <GregorR> http://www.new.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30185038&l=68f03&id=1055580469 This is what I meant
00:48:24 <Slereah_> You have a luxuriant mane for a zombie
00:48:31 <Slereah_> I'm not sure they shampoo that often
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05:53:22 <GregorR> I substantially improved my zombification!
05:53:24 <GregorR> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30185196&l=4069f&id=1055580469
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06:17:01 <GregorR> psygnisfive: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30185196&l=4069f&id=1055580469
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06:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | That must have been glorious..
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10:20:16 <Deewiant> zsh: segmentation fault ./funge --help
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12:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | yep.
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14:48:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I even checked in gdb what the issue was
14:49:36 <AnMaster> iirc: it was that after he parsed command line arguments he then tried to find where the script arguments begun by scanning for the script name, which ended up as not set
14:56:04 <AnMaster> so strcmp with a null pointer iirc
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17:02:08 <optbot> ais523: there's a link to it somewhere there but it's broken
17:02:20 <ais523> ah, I was wondering why thutubot was being slow, must have been a one-off thing
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17:33:53 <MizardX> +ul (!)(d)(l)(r)(o)(w)( )(,)(o)(l)(l)(e)(H)(~S:^):^
17:33:54 <thutubot> Hello, world! ...S out of stack!
18:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | horrible.
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19:41:11 <oerjan> Slereah_: finnish statistical average, i think
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20:05:28 <ais523> not all that much, I don't think
20:08:42 <oerjan> GregorR: he's impenetrable to bullets?
20:09:04 <Slereah_> I'm immune to all sorts of projectiles.
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20:10:56 <oklopol> oerjan: could you stop with the sex jokes?
20:11:17 <oerjan> oklopol: um i didn't start it this time?
20:11:36 <ais523> oerjan: yes you did, you invaded Poland
20:11:48 <oklopol> creampie is a well-known sex term! that was so improper
20:12:04 <oerjan> but but - it's strawberry!
20:12:21 <oklopol> i can't take this! need to go raed
20:12:57 <oerjan> ais523: i think that means the discussion is officially over
20:13:16 <ais523> oerjan: is this some sort of #esoteric version of Godwin's law?
20:13:48 <ais523> incidentally, I deliberately invoked Godwin's law over in #nethack because there was a GPL vs BSD flamewar starting up
20:13:51 <ais523> and it actually worked
20:14:06 <ais523> I said "someone mention Hitler"
20:15:31 <Slereah_> I wonder, should I put a link to scans of the original article on the Kolmogorov machine page on the esowiki?
20:15:53 <Slereah_> It is not street legal, but I'm not sure Kolmogorov would complain
20:16:08 <Slereah_> And it's pretty hard to find otherwise.
20:16:40 <GregorR> Just put up a disclaimer like
20:16:54 <GregorR> DISCLAIMER: NO ONE IS LIABLE FOR DAMAGES CAUSED BY POTENTIAL COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT
20:17:04 <GregorR> And they'll be so confused reading the disclaimer they won't know who to sue.
20:17:12 <ais523> Slereah_: don't put copyright violation on the esowiki
20:17:16 <ais523> I'll just have to delete it again
20:17:45 <Slereah_> I am shocked and appaled by your insinuations sir!
20:18:04 <ais523> Slereah_: copyvio's been deleted from the esowiki before
20:18:24 <Slereah_> But has it been posted before, though?
20:18:36 <ehird> ais523: what is it
20:19:48 <oklopol> Slereah_: no matter what happens, make sure you give it to me one way or another, i've been wanting to learn the basics of kolmogorovian computation since i first heard about it
20:19:59 -!- MikeA has joined.
20:20:09 <Slereah_> oklopol : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Kolmo/
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20:20:28 <Slereah_> I wonder if it's a copywrite violation though.
20:20:56 <Slereah_> Then again, the translation is also copywrited, and it's recent. So no dice I guess
20:21:14 <MikeA> good afternoon, or whatever time of day it happens to be :)
20:21:36 <Slereah_> We were just violating copyrights.
20:21:53 <MikeA> rules are meant to be broken
20:22:12 <ais523> if they were they wouldn't have been made in the first place
20:22:32 <ehird> ais523: Rule: You must break this rule.
20:22:33 <Slereah_> Or maybe put in a space with a metric such that they appear bent
20:22:38 <ehird> WHAT NOW ais523??!??!!
20:22:39 <GregorR> Coined phrases were made to be taken at face value.
20:22:44 <ais523> ehird: I never agreed to that one in the first place
20:22:52 <ais523> and I wouldn't, it would be a stupid rule to agree to
20:22:53 <MikeA> oops sorry wrong context..
20:22:59 <ehird> ais523: did you explicitly agree to copyright law?
20:23:01 <oklopol> ais523: they're not meant to be broken from within the system, they're meant to be broken by introducing only a subset of them into another system, from inside a supersystem containing both theses systems.
20:23:10 <oklopol> people tend to get that wrong.
20:23:12 <ais523> ehird: I implicitly did by not emigrating
20:23:22 <MikeA> ie, obey the rules but question them. copyright, that's different :)
20:23:27 -!- ehird has set topic: Rules of #esoteric: You must break this rule..
20:23:29 <ehird> ais523: gonna /part?
20:23:29 <ais523> oklopol: you should play nomic
20:23:30 <Slereah_> ehird : Copyrights laws are international
20:23:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | How about jumpwalls, which are jumped over such that you land just after the next jumpwall?.
20:23:37 -!- ehird has set topic: Rules of #esoteric: You must break this rule..
20:23:48 <ais523> ehird: besides, nobody's bound by those rules
20:23:50 <ehird> ais523: why aren't you breaking it?
20:23:56 <ehird> irc channels have rules
20:24:00 <ehird> do you violate them?
20:24:08 -!- ais523 has set topic: Rules of Freenode: You must mention the logs (http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric) in the topic..
20:24:21 <ais523> ehird: it depends on how established the rules were
20:24:25 <Slereah_> Man, we were having a blast violating copyrights before that discussion :(
20:24:31 <ehird> ais523: optbot's topics are pretty established, right?
20:24:31 <optbot> ehird: like this? http://www.nsfwlinks.com/
20:24:43 <ais523> if fizzie or lament put that into the topic and locked it, then I'd consider it to be more of an established rule
20:24:56 <oklopol> i read that as "optbot's links are pretty established, right?"
20:24:57 <optbot> oklopol: (Mark Twain)++
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20:25:41 <ehird> optbot won't start.
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20:26:02 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Rule: You must violate this rule..
20:26:11 <ehird> see, optbot's topics are well-established.
20:26:11 <optbot> ehird: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Rule: You must violate this rule.
20:26:15 <optbot> ehird: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Rule: You must violate this rule.
20:26:23 <ais523> ehird: you just modified it, that doesn't ount
20:26:24 <oklopol> umm. Slereah_: did ais523 get to you, i can't get the pages to load anymore 8|
20:26:31 <optbot> jayCampbell: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Rule: You must violate this rule.
20:26:33 <ais523> someone kick optobt for not being a useful bot any more
20:26:33 <ehird> ais523: i was just improving it
20:26:39 <ais523> ehird: that isn't an improvement
20:26:41 <ehird> since when do we kick useless bots?
20:26:45 <ais523> ehird: when they lie in the topic
20:26:57 <ehird> ais523: when was the last time we kicked anyone
20:27:03 <jayCampbell> since the latest batch of power-hungry etc
20:27:07 <ehird> it may not be an improvement in your eyes
20:27:18 <Slereah_> oklopol : They work good here!
20:27:32 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Kolmo/
20:27:38 <oklopol> my internet connection says "local only" now, so.
20:27:55 <ehird> ais523: why aren't you violating the rule yet
20:28:11 <Slereah_> He's not violating the rule, ehird
20:28:12 <oklopol> so, because i'm not going to read that right now, can you tell me the highpoints of it, Slereah_?
20:28:25 <Slereah_> oklopol : It's about the Kolmogorov machine.
20:28:42 -!- oerjan has quit ("Out").
20:28:44 <ehird> i initiate a criminal cfj against ais523 for violating the Rule.
20:28:47 <oklopol> Slereah_: i know, but i don't know how it works
20:28:49 <ehird> i assign this criminal cfj to jayCampbell
20:28:57 <ehird> (the only other talking nomic player in here)
20:29:04 <Slereah_> oklopol : Go see the andrei machine 9000 article on the esowiki
20:29:12 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:29:50 <ehird> jayCampbell: i am about to crim cfj you for not judgding that
20:30:05 -!- optbot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:30:10 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Andrei_Machine_9000
20:30:32 <fizzie> According to my logs, the last time we kicked anyone was 2008-08-10 when ehird (well, tusho) was kicked for insisting to be kicked.
20:31:02 <oklopol> Slereah_: the special nodes 0-5 are just an andrei machine 9000 thing, and not related to the original?
20:31:19 -!- MikeA has left (?).
20:31:21 <Slereah_> oklopol : The original machine had 0 and 1
20:32:05 <Slereah_> It's probably the worst algorithmic system there is that wasn't designed for this express purpose.
20:32:15 -!- thutubot_ has joined.
20:32:21 <jayCampbell> i judge ais523 guilty of violating the rule
20:32:22 <Slereah_> I tried writing a Fibonacci thingy on it, but fuck is it long
20:32:30 -!- thutubot_ has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef:/logs:/esoteric | Rules: ehird may not talk in this channel, and optbot may not set the topic ..
20:32:50 <oklopol> unknown computational class?
20:33:04 <ehird> did you just kill optbot?
20:33:09 <oklopol> Categories: Languages | 2008 | Unimplemented | Unknown computational class
20:33:27 <Slereah_> It has a known computational class
20:33:38 <ais523> ehird: no, I didn't kill optbot
20:33:41 <ais523> not deliberately, anyway
20:33:45 <ehird> ais523: what DID you do?
20:33:48 <ais523> I killed a process but it was owned by me, and I didn't use sudo
20:33:58 <ehird> ais523: which process was that?
20:33:59 <ais523> and I thought you ran optbot under your username
20:34:08 <ais523> ehird: a test thutubot process that failed to work
20:34:45 <oklopol> i don't get the "active part" thingö
20:35:26 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin* discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
20:36:04 <Slereah_> The Copyright law of 1993 had specified a general duration of copyrights of 50 years beyond an author's death, or 50 years since the publication of an anonymous work. The implementation act for the law made the new law apply retroactively, restoring copyrights (and neighbouring rights) on works on which the shorter
20:36:05 <Slereah_> copyright terms from the Soviet-era had already expired or which had not been copyrighted at all under Soviet law. In 2004, this copyright term was extended to 70 years for all works still copyrighted.
20:36:15 <oklopol> Slereah_: explain active part.
20:36:17 <Slereah_> Well, I guess Kolmogorov's paper is still copyrighted
20:36:53 <Slereah_> oklopol : The active part of a transformation is a part that will undergo changes.
20:37:06 <oklopol> err, specified by the rule?
20:37:19 <Slereah_> There are as many rules as you want
20:37:48 <Slereah_> The active part also doesn't have to be in one piece
20:38:42 <Slereah_> If you want an example, try to fucking refresh the page.
20:39:01 <Slereah_> There's only one actual example, it is "Doubling a number"
20:40:27 <Slereah_> I'd write it for you, but it's hard to write a graph
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20:42:22 <Slereah_> I wonder who owns the copyright now.
20:43:37 <Slereah_> He died a short while after my birth.
20:53:58 <Slereah_> So oklopol, still not loading?
20:54:40 <Asztal> hmm, is it just me or does http://codu.org/colormatch/multibg.html not work?
20:54:54 <Asztal> Error: D[D.length - 1] is undefined
20:55:38 <Asztal> in the non-minified version that's line 89; return results[results.length-1][0];
20:56:34 -!- Corun has joined.
20:56:56 <Asztal> It's a firefox 3.1 nightly
20:57:14 <Asztal> it was definitely working recently, but stopped a while ago, I just got around to investigating
20:57:29 <oklopol> Slereah_: it is an answer.
20:58:05 <GregorR> Asztal: Sounds like a Firefox problem X-P
21:00:11 <Slereah_> So, do you feel more knowledgable on Kolmogorov machines now?
21:00:36 <Slereah_> Here's the example : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Kolmo/Kolmo%2024.jpg
21:00:44 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Kolmo/Kolmo%2025.jpg
21:00:51 <Slereah_> Those 5 rules can double a number.
21:01:45 <Slereah_> (A number is here defined as the number of 2's in a line. They've got 3-4 between them because two nodes of the same types can't touch)
21:03:32 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving").
21:04:11 <oklopol> hmm. i don't see why it doubles exactly
21:04:17 <Asztal> ah, excellent, it would also appear that my javascript debugger is broken :)
21:04:33 <Slereah_> The proof of the TC-ness of it uses recursive functions. A list of numbers is defined by numbers separated with the nodes 5-6
21:05:03 <Slereah_> Hm. I wonder if the piece of paper with my attempt at a Fibonacci is still around
21:05:50 <oklopol> oh, and ais523: eodermdrome isn't tc methinks.
21:06:05 <oklopol> the set of all possible rules is finite.
21:06:07 <ais523> I'm pretty sure you can implement some sort of cyclic tag system in it
21:06:17 <oklopol> *the set of all sets of possible rules
21:06:26 <ais523> having finitely many programs does not imply not TC
21:06:29 <ais523> especially when you have input
21:06:39 <ais523> if any of those programs is a BF interp, for instance
21:06:49 <ais523> and I suspect one of them is
21:06:52 <Slereah_> ais523 : Does it have a BF interpreter?
21:07:02 <ais523> Slereah_: it doesn't have any useful programs yet, it's a pain to write in
21:07:08 <oklopol> hmm. i would say you need to be able to encode the input in the language.
21:07:10 <ais523> but I suspect it is possible to write a BF interp in eodermdrome
21:07:25 <ais523> oklopol: we're about to have yet another discussion on what TCness actually means, then, I suspect
21:08:46 <oklopol> that's really a matter of opinion, it can be tc in the way a language with just the "run input as bf" in tc, it's just it's not tc in the way that's interesting.
21:08:58 <oklopol> programs essentially can't be written in it.
21:09:25 <ais523> a BF interp is an interesting program
21:09:44 <ais523> hmm... arguably, the input is part of the program in that case
21:09:47 <oklopol> that only sidesteps the issue.
21:09:57 <Asztal> GregorR: apparently you found a way to break Firefox 3.1's JIT, well done :D
21:10:17 <oklopol> if you can make a bf interp, and give it input without actual IO involving an input device, then it's tc in a way i can agree with
21:10:50 <ais523> oklopol: eodermdrome + an input device together make a TC system, almost certainly
21:11:06 <ais523> but is having only a finite amount of possible programs necessarily non-TC-ising, if you have input
21:11:13 <ais523> also, what about this for an argument:
21:11:21 <oklopol> ais523: whatever. if the set of programs is finite, i'm never going to see it as an interesting language.
21:11:27 <ais523> it's probably possible to make an eodermdrome program which emulates all possible Turing machines, in parallel
21:11:31 <ais523> so it runs all possible programs at once
21:11:49 <ais523> and mingles together their outputs, with identifiers saying which ones are which
21:11:54 <ais523> jayCampbell: yes, but that doesn't matter for TCness
21:12:07 <ais523> oklopol: then, it's running any program you want, you just have to filter the output
21:12:11 <Slereah_> KURNEL KLINK, WY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME!
21:12:17 <ais523> I think most people would consider that TC
21:12:23 <ais523> even Vaughan Pratt, I think
21:12:51 <oklopol> ais523: that's a lot better then relying on IO.
21:13:40 <ais523> oklopol: think about it this way: is a Python interpreter TC? It only has one possible program, which is to interpret Python
21:13:50 <psygnisfive> my little sentence generator thing has a subsystem that does graph rewriting :3
21:13:56 <oklopol> ais523: no, i wouldn't say it is
21:14:01 <psygnisfive> but not just any graph rewriting, pattern-matched graph rewriting :o
21:14:30 <oklopol> ais523: anyway, tc or not, it's not an interesting language.
21:14:37 <Slereah_> psygnisfive : Code for graph rewriting plox
21:14:53 <Slereah_> psygnisfive : Code for graph rewriting plox
21:15:17 <Slereah_> psygnisfive : Code for glaph rewliting prox
21:15:22 <oklopol> psygnisfive: he wants the graph rewriting code
21:15:33 <ais523> oklopol: I'd say it's effectively TC, whether it's TC or not is a matter of semantics, not a matter of computational class...
21:15:34 <psygnisfive> oh. why? graph rewriting isnt all that complicated
21:15:34 <oklopol> i wrote a graph thing for eodermdrome
21:15:47 <oklopol> ais523: yes, let's just say it's an uninteresting language.
21:16:10 <ais523> ah, ok, sorry if you aren't interested in it
21:16:15 <ais523> I thought it was rather neat...
21:16:18 <oklopol> it's tc in the way a language that only prints the output of all turing machines is tc, no matter what the input program is.
21:16:20 <psygnisfive> it uses graph writing to fucking do lexical morphology :D:D:D
21:16:35 <ais523> oklopol: would you say non-TC languages can be interesting?
21:16:38 <oklopol> ais523: well i guess you could think of it as a kind of graph-rewriting assembly.
21:16:41 <ais523> like Splinter or Malbolge, for instance?
21:16:49 <oklopol> ais523: yes, they sure can, assemblies are like that
21:16:50 * Slereah_ found his attempt at a Fibonacci in graph rewriting
21:17:01 <ais523> also, Malbolge-T would be Turing-incomplete by your definition, as it can only have a finite number of programs too
21:17:19 <oklopol> they are almost tc, and you can just kinda increment one of their variables to get more computational power, like the size of registers
21:17:36 <oklopol> if i think about eodermdrome that way, it seems much nicer already.
21:17:53 <ais523> well, you could just make it a matrioshka language
21:18:01 <ais523> say the program + input is the actual program being run
21:18:22 <psygnisfive> slereah: http://wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/SemSyn/generator.js
21:18:31 <oklopol> yeah, that's another way to think of it that makes it more interesting.
21:18:52 <psygnisfive> the relevant functions are under the Derivational Lexicon section, functions lexical_derivation, single_lexical_resolution, and multiple_lexical_resolution
21:19:00 <oklopol> ais523: yeah okay you've convinced me for now, i will not plead for adding an infinite amount of labels.
21:19:33 <psygnisfive> well, mostly the first two. the last one is multiple application of the second plus collecting the rewrite rules that were applied in an array
21:19:55 <psygnisfive> but its the easiest way for me to get a semi-portable interface
21:20:09 <psygnisfive> but then it'd _have_ to be on my server and i dislike that idea
21:20:28 <oklopol> yeah tell me about portability.
21:20:31 <psygnisfive> in that it runs backend not locally so conditions never change
21:20:37 <jayCampbell> there are some interesting environments for javascript these days
21:20:43 <oklopol> we all know what a massive fuck about it i give
21:20:51 <Slereah_> Scratch that, I'll do it myself!
21:21:05 <psygnisfive> ideally i'd like to write this in scheme but scheme doesnt have a convenient UI system.
21:21:40 <psygnisfive> i can plug my JS code directly into an html file and get all the UI crap out of that
21:21:50 <psygnisfive> input and output for free, with hardly any work.
21:22:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:22:21 <Slereah_> Hm. I wonder if I can easily do graphs as a GUI with Python
21:22:22 <psygnisfive> i should probably migrate this shit over to ObjC and make an _actual_ program
21:22:50 <psygnisfive> i want this to remain web-workable so i should probably do it in PHP. but i hate php :(
21:23:41 <Slereah_> Do it in scheme and a scheme interpreter in PHP
21:29:49 <oklopol> lol, there are no videos on youtube of someone actually beating http://www.foddy.net/Athletics.html by running
21:33:37 -!- ais523 has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Rules: ehird may not talk in this channel, and optbot may not set the topic ..
21:33:50 <ais523> it feels wrong to me that channel topics don't have edit summaries...
21:38:23 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:38:27 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
21:42:29 <AnMaster> why are computer architectures called "architectures"
21:44:17 <Slereah_> Architecture isn't necessarily related to houses.
21:44:53 <MizardX> "As documentation, usually based on drawings, architecture defines the structure and/or behavior of a building or any other kind of system that is to be or has been constructed." -- wikipedia
21:45:27 <AnMaster> VLIW is Very Long Instruction word
21:45:45 <AnMaster> but I think WLIW is kind of neat
21:51:18 <oerjan> +ul (:aSSorted):aSSorted
21:51:39 <Slereah_> Is there an unlambda bot here?
21:52:06 <ehird> (:aSSorted):aSSorted is an invalid program
21:52:08 <ais523> oerjan: stop exploiting bugs in thutubot
21:52:27 <oerjan> +ul (:aSS(orted):aSS(orted)
21:52:37 <oerjan> +ul (:aSS(orted)):aSS(orted)
21:54:30 <oerjan> +ul ((+ul )S:aSS)(+ul )S:aSS(orry about this...)
21:54:37 <ehird> oerjan: i love you
21:54:58 <Deewiant> why the hell are there two thutubots here anyway
21:55:10 <fungot> (:aSS(orted)):aSS(orted)
21:55:31 <ehird> +ul ((^ul )S:aSS)(+ul )S:aSS
21:55:38 <fungot> ^ul ((+ul )S:aSS)(+ul )S:aSS
21:55:39 -!- thutubot_ has quit ("ThutuBot quitting").
21:55:48 <ehird> +ul (+ul )S:aSS)(^ul )S:aSS
21:55:52 <ehird> +ul ((+ul )S:aSS)(^ul )S:aSS
21:55:53 <Slereah_> And thus thutubot died the way he lived
21:56:00 <fungot> +ul ((^ul )S:aSS)(^ul )S:aSS
21:56:09 <ehird> Deewiant: MAKE IT WORK >::(
21:56:22 <Deewiant> ehird: that works, to an extent, but fungot is smarter
21:56:23 <fungot> Deewiant: mr., bees :) different hives visiting different kinds :) flowers are concerned, there seems to be from a cross with a fresh stock, and :)/ upper margin is not at all agree, but merely pro bono fnord fnord.
21:58:17 <oklopol> Slereah_: what book is that kolmogorov thing from btw?
21:58:45 <Slereah_> oklopol : One of those best sellers book that everyone can find!
21:59:04 <Slereah_> "American Mathematical Society Translations Series 2 Volume 29"
21:59:16 <Slereah_> That's why I wanted to put it there, it's very hard to find
21:59:51 <oklopol> "series 2 volume 29", i'm sure there's a torrent :P
22:00:09 <Slereah_> oklopol : You can try, but I sure as hell didn't find any!
22:02:33 <Slereah_> I also want to buy "Science without numbers", but it's fucking expensive as hell
22:02:46 <Slereah_> It's been out of print for 20 years, so the books are like $170
22:02:59 <oklopol> your life is so much more exciting than mine
22:04:54 <oklopol> does that make it less *exciting*?
22:06:04 <olsner> oh, never mind, I think I'll just not complete that sentence
22:06:35 <oerjan> that just means we'll have to do it
22:06:47 <oerjan> sex? on top of a zebra
22:07:18 <Slereah_> Especially if it's WITH THE ZEBRA
22:07:34 <oerjan> i wanted to leave that ambiguous
22:09:19 <oklopol> Slereah_ doesn't understand puns
22:09:41 <oklopol> i was going to make a joke, but it doesn't work.
22:10:01 <oerjan> you and your puny jokes
22:10:29 <oklopol> that one kills year after year,.
22:10:48 <Slereah_> I understand. I just want to have sex with a zebra.
22:11:20 <oklopol> well, "zebra" is a cool word i guess.
22:11:53 <Asztal> how do you pronounce it?
22:13:27 <oklopol> yeah you can only smell it
22:14:07 <oklopol> why am i still not reading
22:14:17 <oklopol> i haven't had such an unproductive day in months.
22:14:34 <oerjan> Asztal: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/zebra claims americans and brits pronounce it differently
22:15:30 <Asztal> oerjan: yes, I pronounce it the british way, which one would you use?
22:15:59 <oerjan> well before i looked it up i thought it was long e, so american
22:16:22 <Asztal> I guess you also say the letter Z as zee?
22:16:40 <oerjan> you mean the letter itself
22:16:54 <oerjan> i guess i learned it as zed
22:18:12 * oerjan hides behind a lead wall
22:18:33 <oklopol> okay. i'm going to leave now. if i come back in less than, say, three hours, please say something insulting about my mother
22:19:03 <oerjan> i think it would be unhealthy to claim Zod had a bra, though
22:19:38 <Slereah_> Iunno, that suit wasn't very manly.
22:20:41 <Slereah_> http://www.chestert-shirtprinter.co.uk/images/t-shirt-wholesale/Cool%20t-shirts/Zod-Sticker.jpg
22:20:57 <Slereah_> Would you really bet money on the fact that this guy has no bra?
22:28:54 <Slereah_> You should see the first movie.
22:29:05 <Slereah_> You can see a NAKED LITTLE BOY in it D:
22:30:43 <Slereah_> When the little Superman gets out of his vessel.
22:31:01 <Slereah_> I guess pedophilia wasn't such a big scare back then!
22:38:09 <warrie> Or back when the Simpsons Movie came out.
22:39:38 <Slereah_> It's all part of the gay agenda, warrie
22:39:44 <Slereah_> Just so they can have sex with little boys
23:33:29 <SimonRC> and there is A Cock and Bull Story, with its painful incident when the author (as a young boy) was pissing out of a window.
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23:58:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just got your mail \o/
00:00:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw at some point I will probably implement DATE and maybe also EVAR. Maybe NCRS too
00:11:51 <Asztal> congratulations on passing your mycology exam :)
00:12:47 * SimonRC wishes he could be as productive as you people
00:12:54 <SimonRC> that is mostly not sarcastic
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00:29:37 <oklopol> SimonRC: we're productive?
00:31:20 * SimonRC listens to the final episode of The Brightonomicon on BBC 7.
00:31:28 <SimonRC> oklopol: yeah, you write actual code
00:31:45 <oklopol> i've actually done very little of that in the recent months.
00:32:02 <oklopol> mostly been reading, not sure you can call that productive
00:32:42 <oerjan> oklopol: your mom got impregnated by a zebra
00:33:04 -!- jix has quit ("...").
00:33:36 <oklopol> err, why does this info come to me through you? i should really try to keep better in touch with my parents.
00:34:06 <oerjan> mainly because you asked us to
00:34:42 <oerjan> 23:18 oklopol> okay. i'm going to leave now. if i come back in less than, say, three hours, please say something insulting about my mother
00:35:55 <oklopol> thanks, i had so forgotten that thing i said like 5 minutes ago :P
00:36:22 <oklopol> (and that was sarcasm IF YOU DIDN'T NOTICE : |)
00:36:44 <oerjan> oh sarcasm, thought it was alzheimer
00:38:00 <oklopol> alzheimerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
00:38:39 <oklopol> second reads are always nicer, i remember pretty much everything, so i can just skip almost every page
00:42:41 <oklopol> lol "zebra" comes from "wild ass", puts this whole conversation into perspective really.
00:58:44 <olsner> note also that zebras are black with white stripes rather than white with black stripes
01:00:02 <SimonRC> ... it lacked a certain something, but good nonetheless.
01:00:26 <olsner> what lacked and what did it lack?
01:00:51 <oerjan> should have used more rum
01:01:40 <SimonRC> the thing I went /away to listen to
01:05:28 <SimonRC> the thing that was on the radio: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00fksh6
01:12:17 <olsner> my leg is already sleeping, maybe I should follow it soon
01:17:46 <oklopol> my back is already hurting, so guess i should start hitting the other parts of my body against a wall or something.
01:18:20 <olsner> yes, even it out a bit
01:18:58 <olsner> you're in luck though - it's far easier running forward into a wall than running backwards into a wall
01:19:39 <oklopol> actually i'm fluent in both.
01:53:36 <MizardX> ehird (or whoever can answer): In Jumpfuck, does a continuation include the memory pointer, or just the instruction pointer?
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12:51:02 <ehird> MizardX: ehird (or whoever can answer): In Jumpfuck, does a continuation include the memory pointer, or just the instruction pointer?
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15:10:38 <MizardX> ehird: That would duplicate the argument on the tape. The next cell being the argument, the current cell replaced by the value of the argument; Leaving two copies of the argument, starting from the current position.
15:10:51 <ehird> MizardX: Ah, I misunderstood you.
15:10:53 <ehird> Yes, memory pointer too.
15:10:59 <ehird> But not the actual memory contents.
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15:38:54 <MizardX> ehird: I think I managed to build simple subroutines, but they don't support recursion. http://pastie.org/316101
15:39:06 <ehird> MizardX: very nice!
15:39:25 <ehird> MizardX: hmm, is that fortran-style calling?
15:39:28 <ehird> each function gets one frame on the stack
15:40:15 <MizardX> Since only one argument is allowed, you can either pass the return address, or an argument. A function without arguments isn't very useful.
15:40:43 <MizardX> err... return continuation
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15:41:52 <ehird> MizardX: Hm, the one argument thing is a bit of a problem, but -
15:41:55 <ehird> do you know how to do lists in brainfuck?
15:41:58 <ehird> 1 VAL 1 VAL 1 VAL 0
15:42:15 <ehird> You traverse over, using your list-index as the hopper instead of 1, and decreasing each time
15:42:24 <ehird> You could do that, just specify an index in the list as an argument list...
15:44:11 <MizardX> Hmm... using a call stack at the beginning of the tape...
15:44:51 <ehird> JumpFuck was a 5 minute thing...
15:45:34 <MizardX> But how to find your way back when you return from the sub-routine?
15:45:57 <MizardX> memory pointer would be positioned at the stack
15:47:40 <MizardX> continuation call for that too? It would be a lot of overhead for a simple sub-routine call...
15:50:00 <ehird> MizardX: Well, subroutines aren't that cheap...
15:50:18 <ehird> But seriously, a continuation is just two integers...
15:50:22 <ehird> And calling it is just setting two.
15:54:36 <MizardX> Well... too tired to think about that now. Time to go and buy some pizza! :)
15:56:36 <MizardX> Fortran-style sub-routines for call/return, and the rest using the stack.
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17:58:52 <Mony> ^ul (oOOoOOooOOoOOo)S
17:59:58 <Mony> ^ul (^ul^ul (^ul)S)S
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18:14:09 <MizardX> geh.. breaks on both cr and lf
18:15:01 <Deewiant> right, that's valid but a no-op
18:19:05 <MizardX> +ul ((+ul )S:aSS)(+ul )S:aSS
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18:21:08 <MizardX> ( ) pushes content onto stack, S prints top of stack, : duplicates top of stack, a wraps top of stack in parenthesis
18:21:19 <MizardX> executed from left to right
18:22:12 <oklokok> MizardX: yes that's a random subset of underload command alright.
18:22:42 <oklokok> ! is pop, it's like "fuck off!!"
18:23:13 <oklokok> ~ swaps the two topmost stack cells
18:23:52 <MizardX> +ul (foo)(bar)SS(foo)(bar)~SS
18:24:28 <oklokok> you can remember ~ from like a worm that wiggles into the stack and brings out cell number two
18:24:40 <oklokok> i like to make fun memory pegs.
18:26:51 <oklokok> no i gotta read / complain about not having read enough this weekend
18:27:03 <oklokok> MizardX: are you new @ irc and old @ esolangs.org?
18:28:21 <oklokok> because your nick sounds familiar, but i don't remember seeing you here
18:28:54 <oklokok> planning on compiling more stuff to other stuff?
18:30:04 <MizardX> We'll see... trying to get Redivider -> C working
18:30:22 <oklokok> what is the implementation language?
18:30:53 <oklokok> i was thinking subleg->bf, afaik there aren't that many cycles in the compilation graph.
18:31:02 <oklokok> or was that true for interpretation only
18:31:22 <oklokok> you and ais inspired me to do bf->subleg on friday
18:31:39 <oklokok> it's nice when people do stuff, gives me incentive to do at least as much stuff.
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18:31:55 * oklokok is a very competitive weirdo
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18:32:40 <MizardX> I'm going to climb Mount Everest tomorrow. >_>
18:33:14 <MizardX> Ah, maybe should go to sleep. I'm sitting here laughing at my self
18:33:51 <oklopol> MizardX: then may i assume your nick comes from mountain wizard extreme"?
18:34:02 <oklopol> *"moutnain wizard extreme"
18:37:10 <MizardX> It was a joke, a lie to get rid of the competition. Bad joke, since I was the only one laughing.
18:39:02 <MizardX> Mizard was originaly from Lizard, but "Wizard" was later adopted. X was first just a letter, and now means unknown/secret. An alias so to speak.
18:44:09 <oklopol> well that's a bit dissappointing, mountain wizards are cool.
18:44:29 <fizzie> oklopol: How goes the running?
18:44:46 <oklopol> and one day ahead of schedual
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18:45:43 <fizzie> A friend on other channel had (without provocation) gotten to the same 100.2 result with exactly the same technique I used.
18:46:00 <oklopol> yeah, and i watched the youtube clips, everyone is doing it that way
18:46:40 <oklopol> i may make a vid at some point
18:52:06 <oklopol> also i may want to get a better jump
18:52:14 <oklopol> i basically just fell on my face at the end of track.
18:52:24 <oklopol> was almost fainting from excitement at that point
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20:09:32 <AnMaster> if I implemented a SQL fingerprint, would anyone use it?
20:09:38 <AnMaster> what about you fizzie for example?
20:10:41 <AnMaster> oh and ATHR isn't dead if anyone thought so
20:10:46 <AnMaster> I just had a lot to do recently
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20:15:26 <psygnisfive> could i secure my Oracle server with an SQL fingerprint reader? :3
20:17:49 <Asztal> SQLite would be cool :)
20:18:15 <AnMaster> Asztal, question is, would anyone use it?
20:18:24 <AnMaster> and would it fit into the funge "feel"?
20:19:26 <Asztal> maybe it's just better to wait until the need arises?
20:19:59 <AnMaster> but if anyone wanted sqlite, would they even consider funge?
20:20:45 <Deewiant> if anyone wanted anything, would they even consider funge?
20:20:58 <ehird> psygnisfive: fingerprints are terrible for authentication
20:21:21 * AnMaster have been working with mysql for most of the day :/
20:21:51 <psygnisfive> anmaster have been neglecting subject-tensed-verb-agreement
20:21:51 <Asztal> I think I'd rather use any sort of funge SQL fingerprint than mysql
20:22:07 <ehird> is AnMaster talking?
20:22:08 <ehird> that'd make more sense
20:22:15 <ehird> this conversation was ever so slightly surreal
20:22:55 <psygnisfive> hold the newsreaders nose squarely, waiter, or friendly milk will countermand my trousers!
20:23:27 <ehird> You have two cows. The government gives you arthritis.
20:23:50 <psygnisfive> why would FRIENDLY milk countermand your anything?!
20:24:22 <psygnisfive> when Dali was asked if he did drugs he replied "My dear, I /am/ drugs"
20:25:40 <Asztal> I have everyone ignored
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20:33:02 <psygnisfive> breathe on me again, motherfucker, see what you get
20:33:48 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> anmaster have been neglecting subject-tensed-verb-agreement
20:34:09 <psygnisfive> "AnMaster have been working with mysql for most of the day :/"
20:34:50 <psygnisfive> not unless you're british and ehird is a band
20:34:59 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, but my client shows it as <nick> peforms /me: <data>
20:35:03 <ehird> i have 1 member: ehird
20:35:07 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, what is the right form for that?
20:35:28 <fungot> perform ...out of stack!
20:36:11 <psygnisfive> they believe that life on earth was made by aliens
20:36:26 <psygnisfive> and who were immortalized as the gods (and then god) of the bible
20:38:33 <GregorR> That was totally conversationally relevant.
20:39:02 <AnMaster> which is why psygnisfive went back on ignore
20:39:44 <oklopol> i'm gonna ignore a random person here now
20:39:59 <psygnisfive> theres no such thing as conversational relevance
20:40:08 <oklopol> is there a command for getting the name list
20:40:18 <oklopol> or can someone list it for me
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20:40:34 <oklopol> listed in the server window.
20:40:44 <oklopol> mirc usually lists on the channel, although it's verry random
20:41:14 <Asztal> oh, in mIRC script? there's definitely a way of getting the internal name list...
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20:42:05 <psygnisfive> typing /names completely trashed limechat :O
20:42:26 <oklopol> let's just hope he doesn't say anything interesting for a while.
20:42:41 <oklopol> done. and i thought i'd never get to use that feature! :D
20:43:29 <psygnisfive> lets make love and listen to death from above
20:47:51 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, * psygnisfive has quit (SendQ exceeded)
20:47:59 <AnMaster> I wonder what the heck it was doing
20:48:10 <AnMaster> probably outputting names to channel or something silly
20:48:22 <AnMaster> and yes the timed ignore is over
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20:49:24 <ehird> lament: sorry. it was murdered.
20:49:33 <ehird> because ais523 put a rule in the topic saying it can't change the topic.
20:49:36 <ehird> that pretty much settles it.
20:49:46 <psygnisfive> just typing /names tho got me names form a bunch of different rooms
20:52:33 <AnMaster> my client adds the current tab
21:00:46 <oklopol> you can't think about me, i'm inthinkible!
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21:06:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so who was it that sent you (and all us on CC) that hate mail about fingerprint behaviour?
21:06:30 <AnMaster> I couldn't figure out who it was
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21:10:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Language::Befunge's author, there was more discussion on the mailing list there between me and him... he's still not convinced but he agreed to implement it our way
21:11:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err didn't it say his interpreter failed far before
21:12:14 <ais523_> AnMaster: actually I'm not actually here, ehird just decided to say hi to me for no reason
21:12:44 <AnMaster> ais523_, so who was it that said that?
21:12:59 <ehird> ais523_: you are attempting to apply logic to AnMaster
21:13:13 <AnMaster> well I responded back with logic
21:13:18 <ais523_> <AnMaster> ais523_, so who was it that said that? <--- I don't understand
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21:13:32 <AnMaster> ais523, who am I talking with if you are not there?
21:13:58 <ais523_> AnMaster: ask ehird, he's the one who said hi
21:14:19 <ais523_> hmm... ask one of the bots to ask ehird then
21:14:30 <AnMaster> ais523_, or I can ask you to ask him?
21:14:43 <ehird> ais523_: the answer is "kill yourself and i'll tell you"
21:14:46 <ais523_> ehird: who did you say hi to when you said hi to ais523_?
21:14:47 <ehird> it's a very helpful answer :D
21:15:11 <ais523_> also, probably false as how could you tell I'd killed myself in the first place?
21:15:49 <ehird> i was talking to AnMaster
21:16:16 <ais523_> ehird: still doesn't solve the fundamental problem, just mess around with the pronouns
21:19:48 <AnMaster> GregorR, now that made 0 sense
21:20:26 <AnMaster> while I was thinking ais523 would simply redefine here to solve the issue
21:20:41 <AnMaster> he is after all not physically in this channel, nor is anyone else
21:21:00 <ais523_> AnMaster: oh, I wasn't attempting to make sense at all, I was just blatantly lying in the hope of an interesting conversation
21:23:27 <AnMaster> ais523, so what are you doing?
21:24:09 <oklopol> ehird -> AnMaster -> psygnisfive
21:24:18 <AnMaster> ais523, any updates on underlambda?
21:24:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, that was a timed ignore
21:24:52 <AnMaster> it is gone since over half an hour
21:24:56 <ais523_> AnMaster: no, I've been either playing Battle for Wesnoth, sleeping in a panic because I've realised it's 6pm, going to a roleplaying club, or coming here and idling
21:25:16 <AnMaster> ais523_, you play wesnoth too?
21:25:17 <oklopol> psygnisfive: doesn't work, AnMaster doesn't have you on ignore anymore
21:25:20 <oklopol> you know what you have to do.
21:25:31 <ais523_> AnMaster: yes, so do lots of people
21:25:44 <ais523_> it's one of the most popular computer games on Linux...
21:25:56 <ais523_> (more worrying is that I actually recognise some of the people in the credits)
21:26:08 <AnMaster> ais523_, well hm, I saw ESR in it
21:26:17 <oklopol> i think the task of converting search problems to graphs is complex yet useful enough to deserve some kinda language-level support.
21:26:20 <ais523_> some of the #nethack regulars are there too
21:26:33 <ais523_> and I'm not a serious enough player to track the svn
21:26:34 <AnMaster> ais523_, I wonder why the heck it is that popular though
21:26:40 <ais523_> however, their .cfg files are Turing-complere
21:26:50 <ais523_> I might write a BF interp in them sometime
21:26:52 <AnMaster> ais523_, I have suspected that since long
21:27:05 <AnMaster> those WML or whatever they are called
21:27:08 <oklopol> another idea i'd like to try in a language is that of keeping everything local, mainly you have certain ways to get information from another part of the algorithm even though you didn't store it there
21:27:15 <ais523_> AnMaster: they have while loops, and you can generate infinite storage using several different methods
21:27:22 <AnMaster> ais523_, and IMO it is a horrible hacky macro language
21:27:35 <ais523_> Muriel-style, creating and unrecalling units to have a huge unit set, or generating identifiers on the fly
21:27:47 <ais523_> not for actual programming in, though
21:27:53 <AnMaster> ais523, creating a lot of units will crash wesnoth
21:28:05 <oklopol> that's what you'd do with english, something like "loop this action here; now do some other action; now print the number of cycles you went around the loop" <<< you wouldn't actually say, when describing the loop, that we're storing the cycle count
21:28:13 <ais523_> did you create them all on the map?
21:28:24 <ais523_> create and unrecall/store would be the more obvious way to get lots of units
21:28:30 <AnMaster> ais523_, more than 500 units in the recall list doesn't really show up in reality
21:28:32 <ais523_> if the recall roster can fill up and crash it, that's a serious bug
21:28:42 <AnMaster> also even with around 100-200 units recall is awfully slow
21:28:47 <ais523_> AnMaster: it could do in a long enough campaign, I suppose
21:28:55 <ais523_> and yes, the UI would be a pain if you had 200 recallables
21:28:57 <AnMaster> ais523_, usually it won't happen
21:29:25 <AnMaster> because the long epic campaigns usually manage to kill off a lot of units
21:29:48 <ais523_> but it would be trivial if you were /trying/ for it
21:29:51 <AnMaster> say, over the burning sands, Northern rebirth, whateverh that new one is
21:30:05 <ais523_> I don't know which ones are new and which ones aren't
21:30:11 <ais523_> but decent into darkness is infinitely long
21:30:18 <AnMaster> ais523, well yeah also I hate it
21:30:32 <ais523_> so do I, I decided I didn't like it when I saw it was infinitely long with a stupid ending
21:30:48 * ais523_ prefers codereading computer games to playing them...
21:30:54 <ais523_> AnMaster: ah, I don't have that one
21:31:02 <AnMaster> ais523_, mainlined in svn iirc
21:31:23 <ais523_> well, I'll wait for the distro to package the release, I think
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21:31:34 <ais523_> IIRC Ubuntu just copies Debian for Wesnoth
21:31:34 <AnMaster> there is the not yet mainlined Invasion from the Unknown
21:31:42 <AnMaster> it is split into two campaigns
21:31:54 <ais523_> AnMaster: can you recall from one to the other?
21:31:56 <AnMaster> and it takes over a minute for wesnoth to "build cache"
21:32:07 <AnMaster> ais523, at the end of the first you can choose to continue
21:32:16 <AnMaster> but you hardly have any units left at that point anyway
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21:32:32 <ais523_> AnMaster: you could have just left some good ones in recall anyway just for the hell of it
21:32:52 <ais523_> the carry-over gold doesn't matter nearly as much as campaigns have to allow for that possibility anyway
21:33:02 <ais523_> (the minimum gold should always be enough to complete the level IMO)
21:33:02 <oklopol> some kinda strategy thing?
21:33:06 <AnMaster> ais523, well you are surrounded by something like 5 high level undead armies in the last two battles
21:33:21 <oklopol> any details worth knowing?
21:33:56 <ais523_> oklopol: it has a TC programming language to describe levels, although AnMaster doesn't like it it seems
21:34:36 <oklopol> ais523: that is true of many dsl's, is it tc in an interesting way?
21:34:47 <oklopol> if it has a "while", i'm scceptical
21:34:53 <ais523_> (hmm... their programming lang looks vaguely XML-based, it has [if] condition=true [then] {DO_STUFF} [/then] [else] {DO_OTHER_STUFF} [/else] [/if] as the main conditional construct
21:34:59 <ais523_> oklopol: no, the control flow is very typical
21:35:03 <AnMaster> ais523, xml? oh yes xml with []
21:35:06 <ais523_> inlined procedures + do + while
21:35:17 <AnMaster> ais523, aren't those {} macros?
21:35:25 <ais523_> the only interesting thing about it from a TCness point of view is you have to do tricks to get infinite storage
21:35:30 <ais523_> and {} is a macro reference, yes
21:35:36 <oklopol> ais523: well that's a shame, i'd've wished you'd need to make some kinda computer ai for tcness...
21:35:49 <ais523_> the AIs are in Python, IIRC
21:35:50 <oklopol> if you don't need the actual game for it, that's already a big minues
21:36:03 <oklopol> anything worth knowing about the actual game?
21:36:06 <ais523_> AnMaster: no, the game itself is in C++
21:36:23 <ais523_> oklopol: turn-based, hexagon-based, rules are quite simple, unusual in the amount of difference between the sides
21:36:30 <ais523_> AnMaster: it is so not an RTS, it isn't real-time it's turn-based
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21:36:57 <ais523_> it has a huge amount of variety for a strategy game
21:37:03 <ais523_> most of them just have 2 or 3 types of objective
21:37:09 <oklopol> hmm. i almost want to try that
21:37:32 <oklopol> could you make a level that was actually just a chessboard with chess rules?
21:37:37 <AnMaster> ais523, and the variety is partly due to the tc-ness
21:38:05 <ais523_> although it would be quite difficult, you'd have to say "that's an illegal move" a lot and kill people if they didn't undo it
21:38:05 <AnMaster> ais523, LoW even contains a scenario where you give the allied AI orders
21:38:16 <ais523_> or else change the terrain so only legal moves were possible
21:38:17 <oklopol> ais523: yeah, that was my idea
21:38:39 <AnMaster> ais523_, and you can say "this is more important than that"
21:38:52 <oklopol> it would be great if you saw the mechanics of how the rules worked when playing the game
21:39:02 <oklopol> would have an eso feel to it.
21:39:13 <ais523_> oklopol: the mechanics of the game itself are all in the open
21:39:19 <ais523_> as in, if you try to attack someone, say
21:39:30 <ais523_> it gives you all the stats and calculations, and how it came to them
21:39:48 <AnMaster> ais523, often it is just depressing however ;P
21:39:53 <oklopol> does that game work on windows?
21:40:07 <AnMaster> but why would anyone want windows?
21:40:11 <ais523_> e.g. you know that each of your attacks has a 50% chance of hitting and does 4 damage and heals you 2, except your opponents attacks have a 70% chance of hitting, alternate with yours and will halve your damage potential when they hit, but it only has 2 of them and you have 6
21:40:20 <oklopol> AnMaster: it comes with the laptop
21:40:36 <AnMaster> ais523, don't forget "first strike" "defense", type of ground and so on
21:41:20 <AnMaster> ais523_, sometimes the maths for it is a nightmare
21:41:27 <oklopol> hmm... wonder if there's some other more robust game so you could add unit building and other stuff to it.
21:41:32 <AnMaster> oklopol, you could install another OS too?
21:41:44 <oklopol> by robust i mean, if you change chess even a bit, it's an entirely different game
21:42:00 <oklopol> AnMaster: i would install another os if that was easy.
21:42:03 <ais523_> hmm... the thing's played on a hex grid though
21:42:20 <ais523_> AnMaster: Ubuntu's pretty easy on Windows nowadays, you can download an installer and install it as a Windows program
21:42:23 <AnMaster> ais523, wesnoth is on a hex gird isn't it?
21:42:26 <oklopol> i'm assuming it'd take more than clicking a button and waiting for 5 minutes
21:42:35 <oklopol> that's pretty much my limit
21:42:41 <ais523_> oklopol: it is clicking a button, asking a few questions and waiting for about 10 minutes
21:42:47 <oklopol> ais523: you can get around the hex grid.
21:43:03 <oklopol> ais523: well okay, that sounds easy
21:43:05 <AnMaster> yes the hex gird would mess up chess
21:43:12 <ais523_> Weschess would be an interesting project, come to think of it
21:43:19 <oklopol> it's just i have a feeling it just wouldn't work, and i'd have to do more than just that.
21:43:19 <ais523_> AnMaster: yes it would, use alternate columns and alternate rows
21:43:25 <ais523_> and you have a standard chessboard
21:43:25 <oklopol> i can't even get mingw to install
21:43:33 <AnMaster> ais523, hm maybe you could approximate it using 4x4 or so?
21:43:36 <oklopol> for some reason when you were helping me do that, i only installed C
21:43:43 <AnMaster> and just override the move rules
21:43:52 <ais523_> oklopol: yes, sometimes it doesn't work first time, and you need to ask for help, but I've had much less trouble installing Ubuntu than I have for Cygwin
21:44:18 <ais523_> AnMaster: well, you can change terrain at runtime, and unit's terrain movements at runtime
21:44:18 <oklopol> i'd prefer if someone just installed it for me.
21:44:30 <oklopol> i'm getting so goddamn tired at installing things.
21:44:37 <AnMaster> well I think LFS is simpler than cygwin
21:44:58 <oklopol> i never learn to do it myself if the one-click method doesn't work, and it never does.
21:45:14 <oklopol> (i never learn, based on having done it a thousand times)
21:45:17 <ais523_> just I didn't get the acronym straight off
21:45:25 <oklopol> i'm an idiot at stuff like that
21:45:29 <ais523_> I have auto-built a linux distro from source, but it was Makefile-automated
21:45:37 <ais523_> the makefile was full of wgets to places like kernel.org
21:45:45 <ais523_> worked fine the first time but the dependencies were all screwed up
21:45:52 <AnMaster> oklopol, you learned one thing
21:46:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, you learned that you never learn anything else
21:46:12 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, but slowly, and i get frustrated and occasionally hit my screen.
21:46:16 <oklopol> that's not exactly healthy
21:46:25 <oklopol> i'm very violent when it comes to machines.
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21:46:44 <oklopol> humans never piss me off, though, for some reason
21:46:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, what about an AI? would it piss you off?
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21:47:17 <ais523_> why does Mibbit log me off at random every now and then for no good reason
21:48:14 <oklopol> AnMaster: i don't know, haven't met one
21:48:21 <AnMaster> ais523, what were the other ways for storage in wesnoth you said?
21:48:36 <ais523_> Muriel-style might work, but I'm not sure
21:48:42 <ais523_> could you do evals at runtime?
21:48:45 <AnMaster> ais523_, hm not familiar with that one?
21:48:57 <fizzie> oklopol: Does fungot piss you off when it doesn't work?
21:48:58 <fungot> fizzie: some ancient submarine volcanic origin, a high hill :) feldspathic clay-slate projected, retaining its usual defined outline, dead, and one which was just perceptibly fnord and this yields 0.25 per cent.
21:49:03 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know WML syntax very well
21:49:13 <ais523_> AnMaster: basically, the only way to do flow control is to construct a new program, then replace the original program with it and rerun from the start
21:49:19 <ais523_> sort of like Underload where ^ doesn't return
21:49:39 <ais523_> also, I think you can store any number of units in one variable
21:49:40 <AnMaster> ais523_, I suspect it woudln't work to do that
21:49:54 <ais523_> and it becomes an array automatically
21:50:00 <ais523_> there are no obvious limits on array length...
21:50:14 <AnMaster> ais523, since wesnoth fully expands the file when building the cache
21:50:48 <AnMaster> ais523, but it expand all macros
21:51:20 <oklopol> fizzie: when has it not worked?
21:51:22 <AnMaster> also I have that idea for a syntax less language, somewhat like lisp, but even less syntax
21:51:33 <AnMaster> not sure if you heard about it ais523 ?
21:51:42 <fizzie> oklopol: Well, I hear it doesn't exactly always make sense.
21:51:48 <ais523_> AnMaster: no, I didn't, but Underload is pretty short on syntax...
21:51:51 <oklopol> fizzie: i never have an actual need to get fungot working, so i don't think it would piss me off.
21:51:51 <fungot> oklopol: goura coronata and victoriae, hybrids :).
21:52:09 <oklopol> fizzie: i haven't experienced that
21:52:09 <ais523_> and Malbolge is even shorter
21:52:11 <AnMaster> ais523, my language got truly no syntax
21:52:18 <AnMaster> ais523, everything is done using the file system
21:52:42 <AnMaster> so you just modify the directories and filenames on your file system
21:52:43 <oklopol> the extent of bot malfunctioning i can think of is that thutubot doesn't always gracefully terminate on erroneous input.
21:52:45 <ais523_> that's much more syntaxful than Malbolge, I think
21:52:48 <AnMaster> symlinks for calling other functions
21:52:52 <ais523_> you have an entire directory tree worth of syntax there
21:52:55 <oklopol> but tries to evaluate with undefined output
21:53:03 <AnMaster> ais523, hah but that isn't a syntax really
21:53:05 <ais523_> oklopol: it wasn't designed to handle erroneous input
21:53:13 <ais523_> and as you noticed, it uses {{ }} for some internal stuff
21:53:35 <oklopol> ais523: yes, that's why it's not really malfunctioning, just the closest thing to bot malfunctioning i can recall.
21:54:14 <ais523_> quite hard to set it off in the first place, it seems...
21:54:26 <ais523_> also, no idea how the = ended up in output, maybe there's a bug in my Thutu interp
21:55:29 <oklopol> god there's a lot of ideas in my brain
21:55:40 <oklopol> annoying, why can't they come at a steady pace :|
21:56:05 <oklopol> but no, they have to come in bursts. and usually when i don't have time to program or spec anything
21:56:28 <oklopol> (mainly because i get ideas from doing stuff, and if i'm doing stuff, i usually need to finish it)
21:56:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, just write down the ideas
21:56:33 <oklopol> (i guess that's pretty common)
21:57:31 <AnMaster> ais523, does it reset it's internal state between the commands or?
21:57:58 <ais523_> AnMaster: yes, the internal state is wiped out by a very match-everything regex every iteration
21:58:28 <ais523_> driving it into an infiniloop is the only real way to disrupt it, but I suspect even that's impossible unless I've screwed up the out of time code somehow
21:58:29 <oklopol> AnMaster: well i do, it's just i need to be excited about the idea as well, and i tend to forget parts of it, because not all is explicit in my head and thus writable down, and lose some of the interest.
21:58:57 <oklopol> i have a lot of ideas in lists that i have no idea what the point is anymore :P
21:59:14 <AnMaster> oklopol, maybe there was no point?
21:59:44 <oklopol> my ideas always have a point. if nothing else, the point is there's no point in the idea.
21:59:54 <oklopol> preventing me to make the same mistake again
22:01:21 <oklopol> like that GC idea i had. i've developed a whole new intuition of inherently "amortizedly trivial, hard to do online" problems from that, after i couldn't get it to work
22:02:37 <oklopol> i thought i'd invented an online GC algorithm that worked fundamentally differently than doing it amortizedly, but at the same time as continuing running the program.
22:02:59 <ais523_> oklopol: I liked your GC idea too, but I thought "wow that will be difficult, if even possible, to implement"
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22:03:43 <oklopol> what i got out of it was a pretty strong impression that you cannot do it. of course algorithmically it's the same whether you do it online, or whether you run the GC in the background
22:04:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, can you tell me how it worked?
22:04:39 <oklopol> oerjan: keep an invariant true as you read input, and not make it true in a monolithic action.
22:05:08 <AnMaster> oklopol, when was this so I can read logs?
22:05:20 <oklopol> AnMaster: i have no idea. i can't estimate time
22:05:40 <oklopol> after summer, before this weekend
22:05:56 <oklopol> honestly cannot pinpoint better.
22:06:05 <oklopol> yeah it's impossible to find things in the logs.
22:06:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, so tell me the details about it?
22:06:30 <AnMaster> because so far I got no clue how it would have worked
22:06:32 <oklopol> AnMaster: tell you the details of an algorithm that's fundamentally broken?
22:06:48 <oklopol> tbh i don't remember anymore.
22:07:09 <oklopol> it was some kind of extension to refcounting.
22:07:17 <oklopol> that tried to detect cycles
22:08:02 <oklopol> but after taking into account every kind of graph that can emerge, it ended up running some sort of mark-unused-things GC everytime you did something to a reference.
22:08:44 <fizzie> I remember being here when that was talked about, and having some serious doubts about the workability of it all.
22:08:50 <AnMaster> FreeNode-#esoteric.log.bz2:sep 03 22:45:23 <oklopol> Last week, Chris Lattner — who manages the Clang, LLVM, and GCC groups at Apple — announced that work was well underway to bring ‘blocks’ to the GCC and Clang compilers. ‘So what?’, I hear you ask, ‘My kid has been using blocks since he was 9 months old.’ Fair point, but maybe not these blocks.
22:09:09 <oklopol> yeah i remember lolling at that
22:09:29 <oklopol> fizzie: yeah, that was a pretty bad idea.
22:09:29 <AnMaster> FreeNode-#esoteric.log.bz2:sep 25 23:25:56 <oklofok> aaaanyway, this is kinda like connected components, you can do it for the whole graph in O(n) (the GC approach), or find the connected component of every node separately in O(n^2) (the refcounting thing); it's just the latter will actually be closer to O(n) if there are only a few references that cannot be "optimized", and you more easily can do
22:09:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: Try 2008-09-26; "rootrefcount" is a good word to grep for.
22:10:12 <oklopol> yeah i had some idea for optimizing the amount of things you need to check.
22:10:22 <oklopol> that was fundamentally wrong, because you could always get around it.
22:11:26 <AnMaster> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p466532445.txt ?
22:12:04 <oklopol> so, basically, i tell you about one of my rare sucky ideas, and you dig it up and throw it in my face? :P
22:12:38 <oklopol> i've had tons of great ideas, much more of those, have i mentioned GRAPHICA THIS WEEK YET, GRAPHICA IS PRETTY COOL
22:12:45 <AnMaster> bah I fail at IRC and listening to radio at the same time
22:13:17 <oklopol> i'm doing nothing but ircing
22:13:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: whatever you do, don't start chewing gum
22:13:27 <fizzie> No, you haven't mentioned graphica this week.
22:13:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: not being able to do things while chewing gum is sort of a meme
22:13:53 <oklopol> ais523: recall you mentioning more languages should have prolog-like returns
22:14:10 <oklopol> if you remember the example where i parsed brainfuck using graphica 2.0, that used those
22:14:13 <ais523_> it's so nice for functions to work backwards as well as forwards as son as you right them
22:14:25 <oklopol> you can give a variable as an argument with syntax ?x
22:14:44 <oklopol> (incidentally saw that used later in another language, although just as a comment to notate which are usually returns)
22:14:54 <oklopol> and you can bind them in the nodes
22:15:48 <oklopol> graphica is fun to use for parsing, because you're very explicitly building a tree. that's really all you can do in the language :P
22:16:05 <oklopol> (2.0 doesn't let you rewrite the graph yet, just adds more computational power for building it.)
22:16:46 <oklopol> and two shorthand syntaxes, one based on eodermdrome, one based on predicate logic.
22:17:17 <fizzie> C# has a funny syntax where "nullable" -- a bit like the Haskell "Maybe" type -- primitive types are declared like "int? x;". It's a (arguably) reasonable syntax, but for a C programmer it just looks a bit... weird.
22:17:43 <fizzie> Like the programmer was saying "well, maybe an integer, I guess... not quite sure. what do you think?"
22:17:49 <oklopol> that sounds like a nice practical addition
22:18:09 <oklopol> i like the syntax, and yeah, that's what it looks like :P
22:19:20 <fizzie> Then you need to check for x.HasValue and use x.Value when you want to actually use it. I think. There might have been some form of auto-boxing/unboxing thing. I'm not a C# person.
22:20:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is meant for talking with SQL iirc
22:20:59 <fizzie> Well, it's not exclusively for that, but I'm sure they've been thinking databases when inventing that one.
22:24:45 * oerjan realizes the word "eodermdrome" itself is a eulerian cycle on K5
22:25:40 <ais523_> in fact I came up with the whole idea for the lang after seeing the word
22:26:01 <ais523_> it means "a word which is a eulerian cycle on a nonplanar graph"
22:26:17 <ais523_> and was coined to produce an 11-character example of that, as no real words did that
22:28:04 <ais523_> (there are real words which are eodermdromes, but all of them are longer than 11 chars)
22:29:35 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you define a graph in that word?
22:29:43 * ais523_ is disappointed that anagolf doesn't have INTERCAL as a language
22:30:11 <ais523_> AnMaster: it has vertices e, o, d, r, m, and arcs from e to o, o to d, d to e, e to r, and so on
22:30:30 <ais523_> I might do some time when he's online
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22:31:08 <ais523_> online atm, but hasn't nickserv-identified for 11 weeks
22:31:49 <oerjan> that's long enough that someone else could take the nick
22:32:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, not if a client is connected
22:32:12 <AnMaster> since you need to take the nick first
22:32:22 <oerjan> well they could if he disconnects
22:32:22 <ais523_> you'd have to somehow kill the old nick to be able to take the nick to identify
22:35:24 <fizzie> My nickname is the K1,3 (also called The Claw, although maybe without the definite article and the capitalization) if you ignore the zz-loop.
22:35:47 <ais523_> or 6-chain with the underscore
22:38:02 <ais523_> going for a while, will be back soon
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22:43:35 <fizzie> Well, according to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome it's actually lowercase-only; but feel free to use any definition.
22:44:28 <fizzie> Lowercased, it's a triangle with a 4-path hanging from one node.
22:44:57 <fizzie> "anma" is a triangle, and then the "aster" part is just the path.
22:45:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, well this is the correct caseing
22:45:23 <fizzie> So ----<| pretty much.
22:46:12 <fizzie> While I'm a \|/ if you don't allow for loops.
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22:47:04 <AnMaster> what does hello world look like in that Eodermdrome? As far as I understood it got output?
22:47:05 <ais523_> who here is it that has trouble coming up with names for esolang projects?
22:47:20 <ais523_> AnMaster: yes, it does, but any nontrivial Eodermdrome program is very hard to write
22:47:51 <ais523_> AnMaster: I can't remember if you can output multiple characters at once
22:47:57 <ais523_> if you can't it's difficult
22:48:02 <fizzie> According to the page you can.
22:48:05 <ais523_> due to needing things to happen in the right order
22:48:11 <fizzie> Since it's an "output string", not a character.
22:48:21 <ais523_> couldn't remember if I put it online
22:49:04 <ais523_> thequickbrownfoxjumpsoverthelazydog (Hello, world!) a
22:49:29 <ais523_> anyway, I came up with a good name for nothing in particular
22:49:39 <ais523_> and wondered if anyone wanted it for a project
22:50:25 <ais523_> oklopol: "ceci n'est pas un acronyme récursif"
22:50:48 <oklopol> this isn't a recursive acronym?
22:59:41 <fizzie> Huh, there's no Eodermdrome implementation?
23:05:45 <ais523_> fizzie: oklopol wrote one I think
23:06:05 <ais523_> oklopol: and yes, "this is not a recursive acronym"
23:06:43 <AnMaster> ais523, hm but it isn't is it?
23:10:14 <ais523_> it refers to itself using "ceci", that's not acronymising
23:10:17 <ais523_> so it's completely correct
23:10:40 <AnMaster> it would be so much more ironic then
23:11:46 <ais523_> yes, but I don't know enough French to get that to work
23:11:54 <ais523_> Slereah: is there any way to get it to work?
23:12:53 <oerjan> "cnepuar n'est pas un acronyme récursif", i presume
23:12:56 <Asztal> "cnepuar n'est pas un acronyme récursif" works, no?
23:13:56 <oklopol> fizzie: well i've implemented eodermdrome
23:14:06 <oklopol> at least to the point where i could finish it trivially
23:14:13 <oklopol> i have all the logic there
23:14:14 <oerjan> not sure if "est" is considered an independent word...
23:14:45 <ais523_> oerjan: well, it's close enough I suspect
23:14:59 <ais523_> I wanted to get ceci n'est pas in there somehow, but I suppose it still works...
23:15:12 <oerjan> ais523_: you are aware that subgraph isomorphism is NP-complete?
23:15:45 <ais523_> oerjan: that just means it's inefficient, not noncomputable
23:15:47 <oerjan> so implementation is not going to be entirely efficient in theory
23:15:53 <ais523_> but it would explain how hard it was to write...
23:16:06 <oklopol> it was pretty simple to write imo
23:16:43 <oklopol> i didn't aim at anything more than a few simple local optimizations though
23:18:10 <oklopol> just that i start with nodes that have a lot of connections; anyway, the point is np-complete matching isn't an issue in practise, because most matchings will probably be quite simple
23:18:58 <fizzie> There's a lot of research on isomorphism testing, and I think also reasonably efficient (for small-ish graphs, anyway) algorithms too.
23:20:38 <oerjan> maybe it's not a problem since the subgraph cannot have more than 26 nodes...
23:22:27 <AnMaster> how do you prove a program "formally correct"
23:22:33 <AnMaster> I don't understand how that works
23:26:13 <fizzie> Either much in the same way you'd prove that an algorithm works (given the semantics of the language, do the necessary deductions and see that it actually does what you want), or alternatively with some exhaustive model checking.
23:26:35 <fizzie> Although I guess "with difficulty" would've been an appropriate answer too.
23:26:41 <AnMaster> I suspect it would be extremely hard
23:27:11 <fizzie> Not really, no. Well, not with any automation support, anyway, and not without formally defining what C does.
23:30:12 <fizzie> I mean, there are no tools (that I know of) that would help you automate the formal verification process for C programs. And the C standard isn't really written as a formal definition that you could do mathematical reasoning with.
23:32:08 <oklopol> you can prove your algorithm to be correct, and then make sure the program carries out the steps of the algorithm
23:32:35 <oklopol> proving something directly from the c program sounds like a harder job
23:33:53 <oklopol> pointers make it harder to prove things because you lose locality.
23:34:12 <fizzie> Then you just need to prove things about where the pointers can possibly point to.
23:34:27 <oklopol> which sounds like fun, btw
23:34:38 <fizzie> Model checking is a fancy thing too, except a bit limited; that one is based on exhaustively (but in a reasonably smart way) searching all possible states the program can be in, and making sure the invariants and such you care about hold everywhere.
23:35:08 <fizzie> I've done a bit of that with PROMELA -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promela -- for one course.
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23:36:03 <oklopol> hope we have something like that in turku
23:36:17 <fizzie> AnMaster: A city in Finland.
23:36:30 <oklopol> it seems the menu is a bit limited though :|
23:36:31 <fizzie> A city with a university, more to the point.
23:37:01 <oklopol> "the city where i go to university" is what you need for context
23:37:14 <oklopol> but that was probably obvious
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23:38:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, is it a programming language or a tool for working on programs written other languages?
23:39:09 <fizzie> Promela is a language, Spin is the model checking tool for Promela programs.
23:39:55 <fizzie> Although typically Promela is just used to prove that the protocol or whatever you are interested in is deadlock-free and stuff; I don't think people actually use that for implementing things.
23:40:08 <fizzie> (Which makes implementation bugs again a possibility.)
23:40:51 <fizzie> I think so, yes. Not quite sure, though.
23:41:26 <AnMaster> however not useful for the languages I program in
23:42:51 <fizzie> It would probably be very difficult to do exhaustive model checking for C either; Promela is designed so that you hopefully don't end up with a horrible amount of possible program states.
23:43:48 <fizzie> Promela/Spin quite easily chokes on "too large state-space to exhaustively search" issues anyway.
23:44:49 <fizzie> For a C program with a unsigned char foo[1024]; in it, there's immediately 2^(1024*CHAR_BIT) potential program states, and it's not very trivial to automatically deduce which states are actually different.
23:45:51 <AnMaster> such as "all these values mean nop"?
23:46:31 <fizzie> That's probably closer to doing logical deductions manually about the program; of course it could help some tool a bit.
23:46:53 <oklopol> fizzie: well you could do that lazily, only branch in the proof where those cells are actually used for something
23:47:03 <oklopol> doesn't help with the underlying problem ofc
23:47:51 <fizzie> Promela has some "let the programmer help the tool a bit" features too; things like marking some instructions to be performed atomically, because otherwise it needs to think about all the possible ways those instructions can be scheduled with different threads.
23:50:46 <fizzie> Our Promela/Spin stuff was for the "Parallel and Distributed Systems" course here; but they tend to change the course contents every year.
23:52:31 <fizzie> oklopol: If you're talking about UTU, quick googling says there's DTEK8028 "System Verification and Design for Testability" -- but they might not talk too much about formal verification. You people seem to have quite little information about your courses in the interwebs; or I might not be looking at the right places.
23:52:58 <oklopol> you can find a bit more in the study guide though, or what's it called again
23:53:15 <fizzie> That's still something like a single paragraph.
23:53:36 <oklopol> you have a decent amount of information about courses?
23:53:58 <fizzie> Well, around here (HUT) there's a lot of material but it's all distributed quite randomly around the web pages of the departments; each of which is arranged differently.
23:54:33 <fizzie> Although for next year there is an official ultimatum to move *all* course information into http://noppa.tkk.fi/ -- or at least be linked from there.
23:54:41 <oklopol> i once tried making a parser for the study guide in order to make a DAG of what courses need what as prerequisites
23:55:09 <oklopol> but, in the end i would basically have had to make the graph manually
23:55:23 <fizzie> I think currently that Noppa tool has (for not-currently-active courses) just copies of the data from the study guide book.
23:55:25 <oklopol> because every course says the prerequisites differentle.
23:55:53 <fizzie> From what I've seen, the prerequisites have been more like recommendations.
23:56:17 <oklopol> you mean, from what you've seen at the university, or from utu's study guide?
23:56:24 <oklopol> okay that was a stupid question.
23:57:17 <oklopol> but yeah, that's my experience too
23:57:17 <fizzie> Have to admit that at least the Noppa thing gives a reasonably browseable/searchable list of all our courses.
23:57:41 <oklopol> good for him/her, but that should really be the website's job.
23:58:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, seems to be a mix of English Finnish and Swedish!?
23:59:12 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yeah, theoretically speaking the name of each course should be in Finnish, Swedish and English, but I don't think everyone has bothered to fill in all the fields.
23:59:29 <oklopol> anyway, my goal is to get a degree in math after my cs degree, and that doesn't seem to be possible in utu, so i may have to come to helsinki :o
23:59:39 <fizzie> Oh, and I think the system is designed so that the actual content of the pages can be provided with a single language only.
23:59:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, I saw all three languages at https://noppa.tkk.fi/noppa/kurssit/il/t3050
23:59:50 <oklopol> if that happens, which would be cool, i can make a comparison
00:00:41 <oklopol> did you see swedish past "datorn som verktyg"?
00:00:44 <fizzie> If you select a single course, the contents (lecture schedules, news, assignments, things like that) will be only in the Official Language of the course.
00:01:11 <AnMaster> https://noppa.tkk.fi/noppa/kurssi/t-106.1002/etusivu is in Finnish however
00:01:40 <oklopol> a lot of things happen optionally in swedish, in finland.
00:01:45 <oklopol> tuition is one of those things
00:02:32 <fizzie> Well, those (T-106.1002, T-106.1207) are a bit of special case, since they have a distinct course code for the Swedish versions; probably because they are so common courses (several hundred students each year) and they want it to be easier to arrange things like exam papers in the right language.
00:03:09 <AnMaster> isn't Torvalds Swedish speaking?
00:03:14 <fizzie> T-106.1002 isn't active right now, so the contents come from the automagical dump of the study guide; I guess all those pages might well be in Finnish.
00:03:46 <AnMaster> well iirc I remember hearing him speaking Swedish in some audioclip of how to pronounce linux
00:03:52 <AnMaster> probably found on kernel.org iirc
00:04:01 <fizzie> We've got (according to wikipedia) 5.5 % officially Swedish-speaking people.
00:04:21 <fizzie> The Linux pronounciation audio clip I've heard was in English, though.
00:04:43 <AnMaster> http://kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/SillySounds/
00:04:48 <fizzie> "My name is Linus Torvalds and I pronounce Linux as Linux."
00:05:15 <fizzie> "His family belongs to the Swedish-speaking minority (5.5%) of Finland's population."
00:05:46 <AnMaster> we all end up using English on irc
00:06:03 <AnMaster> it is sad but I type faster in English than Swedish
00:06:40 <AnMaster> but the Swedish qwerty keyboard variant is even more abysmally bad for the language than the English one
00:07:06 <fizzie> He does speak Finnish too; I've heard some interview or something. Maybe he though that Finnish people won't need the pronounciation guide audio-clip.
00:07:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I didn't need it in Swedish
00:08:51 <fizzie> I guess someone Swedish could presumably do it with a long "i" in it. Like in the name "Linus". (I don't think it was with a long "i", though?)
00:09:47 <AnMaster> well to tell the truth it is hard to tell the difference for i
00:09:56 <fizzie> The pronunciation given in Wikipedia is "[ˈliːnɵs ˈtuːrvalds]" which is a long one.
00:10:01 <AnMaster> for some vowels it is much easier
00:10:03 <fizzie> Didn't bother listening to the audio clip, though.
00:11:44 <oklopol> i hear swedish vowels are actually distinct depending on whether they're long or short.
00:11:44 <AnMaster> http://kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/uemacs/ <-- heh
00:11:55 <oklopol> so that doesn't sound plausible
00:11:58 <fizzie> I think I personally say "Linus" and "Linux" with a different-length 'i'. (In any case, they say that Finnish-speaking people are good at differentiating vowel/stop lengths since we use those a lot for different meanings.)
00:12:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, Linus is between long and short I'd say
00:12:31 <AnMaster> (the first one = sieve, the latter one a type of fish)
00:12:59 <AnMaster> Linus is somewhere in between for me
00:13:04 <fizzie> fi:siivilä and fi:silli here, I think.
00:13:14 <fizzie> I assume it's the same fish.
00:13:26 <AnMaster> drop adding those double vowels all the time ;P
00:13:43 <oklopol> i don't know what fish that is, but i'm pretty sure it's the same one.
00:13:59 <AnMaster> I got no clue what that fish is in English
00:14:37 <oklopol> yeah they are pretty silly
00:15:38 <oklopol> i'll check so we know for sure!
00:15:46 * oerjan does an all-round swatting ----###
00:16:09 <oklopol> oerjan and i guessed right it seems!
00:16:29 <oerjan> it's "sild" in norwegian fwiw
00:16:42 <oklopol> oerjan: how many exclamation marks must i use for you to see the sarcasm
00:17:08 <AnMaster> sild would be sieve daemon obviously
00:17:23 <oklopol> oerjan: can you count yourself and tell me when you see it?
00:17:40 <oklopol> (i'll start putting them in random locations so you slowly get the sarcasm!)
00:18:15 * AnMaster waits for anyone to get the joke
00:18:16 <oklopol> oerjan: not maybe, for sure.
00:18:27 <oklopol> AnMaster: i'm assuming "d" is a common suffix for daemons
00:18:39 <oklopol> oerjan: what i think doesn't matter
00:18:51 <oklopol> making all your arguments void.
00:18:52 <oerjan> Satand is _so_ pissed that we keep misspelling his name
00:19:09 <oklopol> AnMaster: see, that's a good daemon pun :P
00:20:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, is satand the .no name?
00:21:01 <oklopol> we type it as satan, whereas it's actually satand
00:25:13 <fizzie> While I was ready preparing for sleep, I thought of two word-pairs with only a i-length difference with hilariously different meanings.
00:25:42 <fizzie> There's sima/siima (mead/fishing line) and sika/siika (pig/a type of fish).
00:27:40 <oerjan> how positively side-splitting
00:27:41 -!- biden has changed nick to comex.
00:28:04 <fizzie> Also lika/liika (dirt in the "dirty" sense, filth, something like that/"too much" in suitable contexts).
00:28:52 <oklopol> likalla lakilla liikaa likaa
00:29:08 <AnMaster> how do I see where git pulls from?
00:29:16 <AnMaster> it is being an unhelpful bastard as usual
00:29:26 <AnMaster> none of the svn like commands work
00:29:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: well what do you expect with that name
00:29:55 <oerjan> wow AnMaster got a pun
00:32:56 <oklopol> oerjan: sorry, that was actually a short story of mine
00:33:14 <AnMaster> $ strace -v -s 100 -f git pull 2>&1 | grep write
00:33:23 <oklopol> it continues: "the man looked at me for an hour or so, then responded: 'o'"
00:33:37 <oklopol> that's it really, i forget the rest.
00:33:42 <AnMaster> [pid 24867] write(4, "0052git-upload-pack /pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/acme/pahole.git\0host=git.kernel.org\0"..., 82) = 82
00:34:11 <AnMaster> I guess there is a simpler way
00:34:16 <oerjan> oklopol: do you call this "The story of O"?
00:34:22 <AnMaster> but the help of git is abysmal
00:34:34 <AnMaster> with svn, bzr and so on it is simple
00:35:02 <oklopol> oerjan: i think it's "the story of two lonely o's"
00:35:34 <oerjan> i guess they would start out lonely yes
00:36:28 <fizzie> No, really; "git fetch -v" shows it.
00:36:41 <fizzie> Or "pull -v" or something.
00:36:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, but it isn't easy to find
00:37:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, svn set a standard for a good user interface
00:37:18 <AnMaster> learn one and you can find your way around them all
00:37:20 <fizzie> It was pretty trivial to find; I didn't even have to check any man pages, I just did "well, -v is probably the verbosity flag for the pull command".
00:37:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I didn't want to do the pulll
00:37:39 <AnMaster> just show where it would have been
00:37:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, which is pretty different
00:38:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, tell me how you would do it in git
00:38:37 <fizzie> "git remote show origin".
00:38:42 <fizzie> Which also wasn't difficult to find.
00:38:55 <AnMaster> how the heck would I know it was git remote to begin with?
00:39:18 <fizzie> It's the *remote repository* you're interested in; I would've thought it's quite easy to figure out.
00:39:32 <fizzie> I don't think that's very commonly used command, though.
00:39:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, how would I know there existed a command called remote
00:39:46 <fizzie> By saying "man git", maybe?
00:39:46 <AnMaster> push Update remote refs along with associated objects
00:39:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, I expect help such as from svn
00:40:25 <fizzie> It says "commonly used commands" right there; it even has a -a flag for all commands, which you would've seen from "git help help".
00:40:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, well it is counter intuitive(sp?)
00:41:07 <fizzie> I'm not trying to say I love git's command-line interface, even when compared to svn, but I can't really agree it's especially *difficult*.
00:41:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I prefer not having it pop up in man
00:41:23 <AnMaster> since once I hit q it is all gone
00:41:35 <AnMaster> doesn't work that way in xterm
00:41:55 <AnMaster> since it seems to use a separate buffer for cursor addressing mode or something
00:42:04 <AnMaster> I noted it with TERM fingerprint in cfunge too
00:42:20 <fizzie> Probably depends on whatever magic is in the terminfo strings.
00:42:32 <AnMaster> well. both use xterm-color here
00:47:19 <ehird> fizzie: AnMaster hates git
00:47:25 <ehird> but that hate doesn't seem to be based on logic
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01:45:22 <CakeProphet> I can't really say I've been busy though, I've just been out of the loop
01:45:36 <oklopol> yeah, me too. out of all loops really
01:49:52 <CakeProphet> the only real ideas I've gotten lately that I haven't really seen much of deals with event-based programming
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01:51:30 <oklopol> yeah i have a few of that kinda langs
01:51:40 <oklopol> but they're a bit rare, and they're pretty nice
01:52:27 <oklopol> you get a nice declarative paradigm if condition is simply a boolean expression
01:52:37 <CakeProphet> the main question is in what order execution should take place... and where the control flow should go afterwards.
01:52:48 <oklopol> well i'd go for nondeterminism
01:53:16 <oklopol> and no control flow except the comefroms is pretty natural.
01:53:29 <oklopol> but if you had some kinda imperative core, that might be pretty tasty
01:53:53 <oklopol> basically run some kinda statements one by one, and have comefroms with triggers
01:54:33 <CakeProphet> not really esoteric... but deliciously cause-effect anyways.
01:54:49 <oklopol> sounds pretty delicious yes
01:55:27 <oklopol> keymaker made a quine in it recently
01:55:32 <oklopol> that's all i've heard about the lang
01:55:57 <oklopol> hmm. no i don't think it was that enormous
01:56:13 <oklopol> compared to that one other quine of his
01:56:18 <oklopol> don't remember the language
01:56:23 <PovAddict> I only tried it in the Flash VM and it ran for quite long without outputting anything, so I closed it
01:56:24 <CakeProphet> the more I look at io's specs the more I like it
01:56:26 <oklopol> but it was like dozens of pages
01:56:29 <CakeProphet> I think I'm going to download it and play with it some
01:56:38 <PovAddict> should try with a proper interpreter later
01:57:52 <PovAddict> I've yet to see a Whirl program using PAdd (program jump)
01:59:00 <PovAddict> maybe this quine uses it... I don't see too many other ways to make a Whirl program whose output isn't much smaller than the code itself
01:59:50 <GregorR> I'm addicted to having a point of view too.
01:59:53 <oklopol> isn't padd the only way to do control flow?
02:33:48 <bsmntbombdood> this conversation is impossible to follow, all four of you are the same color
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14:13:52 <AnMaster> so I guess you are there ais523?
14:30:24 <oklopol> wonder how hard it is to compile bf with unbounded cells to bf with bounded cells
14:38:49 <AnMaster> oklopol, you mean bignum to unsigned byte?
14:41:12 <oklopol> compile bf with unbounded nonnegative cells to bf with bounded unsigned cells
14:41:46 <AnMaster> well I would first compile it to C with bounded integers, then use gcc-bf
14:43:22 <AnMaster> well one issue is that if a cells grows you may need to move all other cells upwards
14:43:29 <oklopol> i can easily do something like store numbers in base 255, storing numbers 0-254 as numbers 1-255, and use a zero byte as a marker between numbers.
14:43:44 <oklopol> and move the whole tape contents to the right when a carry happens over the number boundary
14:43:57 <oklopol> that's probably faster than whatever gcc-bf would do.
14:44:30 <oklopol> my point was, is there some nice kinda interleaving of the bytes of the numbers
14:44:30 <AnMaster> oklopol, but if you suddenly run out of space for the lowest cell you need to move all above it upwards
14:44:43 <oklopol> without the need to bookkeeping that requires unbounded cells
14:45:05 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, that's why that's a bad idea.
14:45:07 <fizzie> After moving the tape, you also need to find your way back where you were, which might involve some other marker value.
14:45:52 <AnMaster> which is why gcc-bf would be easier, though even less efficient
14:45:58 <fizzie> If you want a fixed-size (N) tape of unbounded numbers, and you have an infinite tape of bounded numbers, you can of course store the bytes of the k'th number at k, k+N, k+2*N, ...
14:48:39 <AnMaster> interleaving data like that is really confusinf
14:49:36 <oklopol> yeah probably better to use two bytes to represent a number boundary, one for marking current cell, one for storing a static zero.
14:49:57 <oklopol> one doesn't work, at least easily, because you need bookkeeping when doing the bookkeeping required for it, i think.
14:50:04 <oklopol> which is quite hard to do.
14:50:59 <oklopol> my point was, can you easily do that without needing unbounded cells for the bookkeeping when locating the bytes
14:51:09 <oklopol> the indices get pretty big.
14:51:58 <AnMaster> easy, store the length of the length
14:52:00 <oklopol> well, you just need one number for that, so guess you could use a simpler interleaving for it, like have every other byte zero and use that for the index
14:52:14 <AnMaster> store the length as a number of zero bytes
14:52:31 <AnMaster> the length of the length is the same length as the count of those zero bytes
14:52:48 <oklopol> there are a lot of ways, i don't see a use for something more complicated than storing it as BBBBBB0
14:53:02 <fizzie> What do you need the cell indices for?
14:53:28 <oklopol> fizzie: say i add 1 to byte 2 of a number, i need to locate byte 1 if there's a carry
14:53:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, what if there is a 0 in the BBBBB series?
14:53:40 <oklopol> can you do that without actually calculating the index of byte 1?
14:53:59 <oklopol> AnMaster: 0-254 stored as 1-255 as i said
14:54:18 <oklopol> this is a trivial problem.
14:54:30 <oklopol> i mean, finding a way to store *one* number.
14:55:03 <AnMaster> you could ask the user to write it down
14:55:10 <AnMaster> and then do various operations on it
14:55:24 <fizzie> I'm not good at brainfuck, but you do have the pointer pointing there, and two completely different operations; <> for "move to prev/next cell" and "<<<[N of 'em]<<<"-style for "move to prev/next byte".
14:56:00 <oklopol> fizzie: that works in a static context, yes.
14:56:10 <oklopol> but i need to have the same code for adding two adjacent integers, naturally
14:56:19 <oklopol> and that code changes depending on the cell location
14:57:15 <oklopol> and n <'s won't even work within one number
14:57:24 <oklopol> yeah okay it would for byte 2
14:57:37 <fizzie> Hmm? You can just swabble around between the same byte in the two adjacent integers, add it, then continue to the next byte if there's carry, or something.
14:57:42 <oklopol> but *obviously* the code for doing carries for *one* number needs to work for any number length
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14:57:57 <oklopol> yes, but how do i go to the next byte?
14:58:16 <oklopol> the code needs to be the same no matter which byte of the number i'm in
14:58:16 <fizzie> With N >s? That moves always from byte k of cell l to byte k+1 of cell l.
14:58:37 <oklopol> fizzie: If you want a fixed-size (N) tape of unbounded numbers, and you have an infinite tape of bounded numbers, you can of course store the bytes of the k'th number at k, k+N, k+2*N, ...
14:58:54 <oklopol> assumed you were solving the problem i asked a solution for
14:59:11 <oklopol> that's a solution to a trivial problem :P
14:59:30 <fizzie> Well, you just said "bf with unbounded cells to bf with bounded cells" without mentioning the length of the tape.
14:59:56 <oklopol> sorry, it was implicit i want my bf to have an infinite tape.
15:00:28 <fizzie> You're the kind of guy who likes infinite things.
15:00:34 <fizzie> I mean, you would want it.
15:01:24 <oklopol> if you're assuming bf doesn't have an infinite tape
15:01:34 <oklopol> then you need to assume that for both bf's i was talking about.
15:01:41 <oklopol> in which case your scheme doesn't have bignums.
15:01:47 <oklopol> you can't have them on a finite tape
15:02:03 <oklopol> so i'm pretty sure you should've known i meant an infinite amount of bignums.
15:02:39 <fizzie> It was just a random comment that you can trade infinite storage of one kind (finite amount of bignums) into an infinite storage of another kind (infinite amount of bounded integers) reasonably easily.
15:03:47 <oklopol> but i misread it, and got pissed at myself.
15:03:52 <fizzie> I wouldn't want to be the one who has to write the arithmetics for a system where you have an infinite amount of infinite sequences interleaved on a tape.
15:05:30 <fizzie> It doesn't sound simple. Of course you can interleave them "diagonally" like A1, A2, B1, A3, B2, C1, A4, B3, C2, D1, but moving around there without single-cell bignums doesn't sound very much fun.
15:06:04 <oerjan> oklopol: i would like to point out that incrementing a number and propagating a carry _are_ the same operation, and independent of position
15:06:17 <oerjan> similarly for decrement and borrowing
15:06:55 <oerjan> so it should not be a problem with the BBBB0 style
15:07:13 <oklopol> definitely not, it's just that you need to move the whole tape around.
15:08:11 <oklopol> guess you could simulate boolfuck on it, use the bytes for just booleans, would make the moving part faster
15:08:12 <oerjan> but on the other hand any other solution seems to me to require indices to find out how far you need to go
15:08:26 <oklopol> oerjan: yes, but you could use BBB0 for the indices
15:08:31 <oklopol> because you only need a few of them
15:08:42 <oklopol> so it's not really a problem.
15:08:52 <oklopol> though i'm not sure that actually make things that much faster
15:09:10 <oklopol> if you're moving around a tape, you need to be movign the indices around anyway
15:09:19 <oklopol> could just as well be moving the tape contents too.
15:09:48 <oklopol> why doesn't my uni give out any esolang courses :<
15:10:04 <oerjan> oklopol: too few mad professors
15:10:35 <ehird> we could establish an irc universe.
15:10:40 <ehird> with esolang courses.
15:10:45 <ehird> s/universe/university/
15:10:48 <ehird> although universe sounds better.
15:11:01 <oklopol> that's actually something vjn has been contemplating for a long time
15:11:13 <oerjan> a sufficiently mad university is indistinguishable from a universe
15:11:34 * oklopol hopes to be a mad professor one day
15:11:42 <ehird> oklopol: you need to get gray hair
15:11:43 <oerjan> with all the crazy spacetime experiments going on
15:11:50 <ehird> and also stop being cool
15:12:20 <oklopol> "the basics of esoteric programming", "brainfuck algorithms"...
15:12:27 * oerjan imagines a mad scientist getting ostracized by his colleagues when they discover he is coloring his hair
15:14:07 <oerjan> actually, evil mad scientists can be bald too, i think
15:14:59 <oerjan> the good ones need to have grey hair, and/or be little kids
15:15:16 <AnMaster> is there any language that is easily provable to be tc but is exceedingly hard to prove bf-complete? That is the same IO capabilities as bf
15:15:19 <oerjan> mind you my data is a bit sketchy
15:15:34 <AnMaster> would it be possible to construct such a language?
15:15:37 <oerjan> AnMaster: Underload, duh
15:15:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, you can prove it to not have the same output capability
15:16:20 <AnMaster> I meant one that is hard to find out if it is bf complete
15:16:29 <AnMaster> with underload that is trivial
15:16:34 <oerjan> well why didn't you say so :D
15:16:53 <oerjan> ehird: maybe, can you test your death ray somewhere spectacular?
15:16:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, I thought I said so, but maybe I didn't
15:17:04 <oerjan> oh wait i said _good_ mad scientists
15:17:08 <ehird> oerjan: do you like jupiter?
15:17:17 <ehird> should i get rid of it?
15:17:25 <oerjan> ehird: maybe something that would create less debris
15:17:40 <ehird> oerjan: i can zap the debris too.
15:17:42 <oerjan> unless your death ray takes care of that
15:18:01 <AnMaster> would such a language as I mentioned be possible?
15:18:01 <ehird> it's a gravitational antiforce blackhole/wormhole-directed-at-itself hybrid
15:18:08 <ehird> ok, jupiter going in 3...2..1..
15:18:13 <ehird> ok, jupiter's gone
15:18:20 <ehird> but it looks like it's still there
15:18:26 <ehird> because it's so big that the image will take a few years to fade
15:18:29 <ehird> maybe even decades.
15:18:33 <oerjan> AnMaster: well it's just a matter of making binary I/O sufficiently awkward isn't it
15:18:42 <oerjan> like INTERCAL but worse
15:19:43 <oerjan> ehird: interesting effect given that Jupiter is only a few light hours away
15:20:05 <ehird> oerjan: hey, this is what happens when you mess with jupiter.
15:20:09 <ehird> it's a pretty crazy thang
15:20:22 <ehird> oerjan: it is not actually composed of gas, but gravity.
15:20:28 <oerjan> ehird: oh wait, i wasn't thinking. will this mess up my horoscope much?
15:20:40 <ehird> oerjan: just ignore all the bad bits
15:20:43 <ehird> jupiter is responsible for them.
15:21:03 <ehird> [[although i can't recall any horoscope ever saying anything non-vaguely bad]]
15:21:18 <ehird> "YOU WILL DIE TOMORROW"
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15:21:46 <AnMaster> or "at 15:23 you will break a leg"
15:22:22 <oklopol> it'd be cool if there was a horoscope that told exactly what'll happen
15:22:43 <oklopol> ...but only if you *believe* it
15:22:47 <oerjan> "beware of siamese twins today"
15:23:46 <oklopol> "win the lottery today, it'll bring you luck"
15:23:50 <oerjan> the technical problem is that newspaper horoscopes only have 12 options for all readers to share
15:23:57 <ehird> oerjan: just change time
15:24:05 <ehird> so that everyone in the same sign has exactly the same day.
15:24:18 <oklopol> yeah, that's a bit stupid about hs
15:24:24 <ehird> that's a bit problematic if you make them die ofc
15:25:07 <AnMaster> "if your name begins with S beware of falling rocks"
15:26:22 <ehird> http://www.engadget.com/2008/11/17/the-bacon-iphone-sleeve-for-discerning-eyes-only/
15:27:25 <ehird> get bacon to write horoscopes
15:27:27 <ehird> it can do no wrong
15:27:51 <oklopol> "ling" is thai, it means "ape"
15:28:08 <AnMaster> seems to be coloured wool on that pic
15:28:18 <oklopol> can't you see the fat dripping of it
15:31:49 <ehird> i wanna go to jupiter sometime
15:32:58 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't zapped yet, due to speed of light it will be a few hours before it reach Jupiter, so just invent faster than light travel, go there and visit, and leave before it gets zapped
15:48:07 <AnMaster> ais523, you had forgot to use /away last time it seems
15:57:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: I had assumed the bouncer did that automatically. Perhaps he wasn't properly disconnected.
16:01:33 <ehird> -psyBNC: Mon Nov 17 15:40:36 :connect from sm01-fap05.bham.ac.uk
16:01:33 <ehird> [15:40] -psyBNC: Mon Nov 17 15:40:39 :User ais523 logged in.
16:01:33 <ehird> [15:52] -psyBNC: Mon Nov 17 15:52:38 :User ais523 disconnected (from 147.188.254.112)
16:12:44 * ehird considers gobolinux+etoile
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16:36:48 <AnMaster> heh fun: http://www.suckless.org/programs/ii.html
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16:47:24 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the link for gcc-bf now again?
16:47:46 <ais523> AnMaster: there's an out of date version online, let me post the most recent version, then I'll tell you the URL
16:48:11 <ais523> actually... it's a bit hard to separate the bits that are mine from the bits that aren't atm
16:48:14 <ais523> and I don't have a build system
16:48:23 <ais523> not entirely sure what I should paste, exactly
16:49:34 <ais523> it's not for the whole thing
16:49:39 <ais523> just for the gcc backend thing
16:49:44 <ais523> and I'm not using it as proper version control
16:49:53 <ais523> just as a place to store deleted code, rather than commenting it out
16:50:01 <ais523> gcc-bf's a mess from the project management point of view
16:54:49 <AnMaster> and what would the steps be to try it out
16:54:56 <ais523> AnMaster: almost, just need a sane build system and the bit that actually produces the BF itself
16:55:06 <AnMaster> ais523, also aren't you using the gcc build system for the gcc backend?
16:55:14 <ais523> except that I have to wrap it
16:55:19 <ais523> it's sort of confusing
16:55:24 <ais523> bits of the Makefile run three times
16:55:24 <AnMaster> ais523, you don't produce any bf?
16:55:39 <ais523> and then produces the BF for the constants at the start
16:55:47 <ais523> but that's just +++++>>>>>>+++>>>>>+++++>>>>>> stuff
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17:04:23 <AnMaster> ais523, so how would I go about building this?
17:04:33 <ais523> my current build system is full of hardcoded paths
17:04:38 <ais523> but basically, it works like this:
17:04:48 <ais523> and it's a particular version the patches are against, let me check
17:05:05 <ais523> although ofc they might work against other versions too
17:05:15 <AnMaster> well my system gcc are those two
17:05:18 <ais523> then there's a patch for the makefile too
17:05:49 <AnMaster> ais523, is this gcc a vanilla gcc or a distro gcc?
17:07:50 <AnMaster> <ais523> then there's a patch for the makefile too
17:07:50 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, is this gcc a vanilla gcc or a distro gcc?
17:07:50 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> I mean, is it already patched
17:08:00 <ais523> it's the Debian sources
17:08:10 <ais523> I think that's ready-patched
17:08:12 <AnMaster> well is it patched or an upstream one
17:08:24 <AnMaster> so do I need the debian one then?
17:08:29 <AnMaster> and how on earth do I get hold of it
17:08:31 <ais523> hmm... the simplest solution is almost certainly just to redistribute the whole tarball
17:08:34 <ais523> my code and other people's
17:08:37 <AnMaster> considering I'm no debian user
17:09:09 <AnMaster> ais523, would be better if it also was possible to get the specific parts
17:09:18 <AnMaster> in order to upgrade to a new gcc
17:09:29 <ais523> although gcc changes the internal interfaces around quite a lot, it seems
17:09:55 <AnMaster> ais523, well main issue here I see is that I can't easily find a debian gcc afaik
17:10:17 <ais523> I should just send you my gcc tarball
17:10:26 <ais523> or at least I would if I could figure out how it interacts with the build system
17:10:29 <ais523> as it's in more than one directory
17:10:39 <ais523> hmm... probably best is if you wait until my Christmas holidays
17:10:47 <ais523> then I can attempt to figure out wtf is going on
17:10:53 <ais523> and no, probably by http
17:15:55 <AnMaster> ais523, this is a nice irc client: http://www.suckless.org/programs/ii.html
17:16:35 <AnMaster> and meanwhile I have extended the ideas for my potential esolang FS a bit
17:16:43 <ehird> i request that everyone stop talking to AnMaster so i don't have to read monologues
17:16:45 <ehird> actually forget tha
17:17:31 <ais523> "the big brother of sic"
17:18:40 <AnMaster> ais523, what are the different subdirs at http://code.eso-std.org/gcc-bf/ ?
17:19:38 <ais523> bf-ld is the stuff that runs after gcc (the implementation of as and ld, mostly); config-bf is the bit that goes inside gcc, libbf is C code for the standard library, and bitemplate is an attempt at figuring out the build system
17:20:29 <AnMaster> loloop <-- laughing out loud object oriented programming?
17:20:34 <AnMaster> http://code.eso-std.org/gcc-bf/libbf/longjmp.S
17:20:48 <ais523> AnMaster: it's the low-overhead loop command
17:20:55 <ais523> unfortunately gcc's optimiser doesn't seem to generate them
17:21:04 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you mean low overhead?
17:21:05 <ais523> but vaguely speaking, a typical loop is implemented in terms of computed gotos
17:21:09 <ais523> whereas a loloop is just []
17:21:23 <AnMaster> ais523, well does many machines have something like a loloop?
17:21:24 <ais523> "low overhead loop" is a technical term in the gcc docs
17:21:28 <ais523> AnMaster: quite a few do
17:21:39 <ais523> even x86 has the rep instruction
17:21:43 <ais523> but that only does one command
17:21:51 <ais523> most of the loloop-wielding machines I see have registers
17:21:57 <ais523> which basically put a goto into the code at runtime
17:22:03 <ais523> and decrement stuff at the same time
17:22:48 <AnMaster> ais523, how would I download this and set it up?
17:23:03 <ais523> yes, wget -r for download
17:23:09 <ais523> and with great difficulty in terms of setting it up
17:23:14 <ais523> some of the files you need aren't even there
17:23:24 <AnMaster> ais523, ok, care to upload the files at least
17:23:37 <AnMaster> I can figure out how to fix build failures usually
17:23:42 <AnMaster> but here I got no idea where to start
17:24:10 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out where to start atm
17:24:14 <ais523> everything depends on everything else...
17:24:30 <AnMaster> ais523, so you can't begin with compiling gcc-bf?
17:24:56 <ais523> let's see... you do linker first
17:25:01 <ais523> but it doesn't need compiling as it's Perl
17:25:08 <AnMaster> ais523, you just put it in path or?
17:25:48 <ais523> ugh, unfortunately not
17:25:57 <ais523> I had enough pain trying to get gcc to look in the right directory to start with
17:26:16 <ais523> let me try to find my config.status, then at least I'll know what the configure command line is
17:30:15 <AnMaster> ais523, lets say I got the whole /home/gcc-bf for doing this
17:30:21 <ais523> # This directory was configured as follows,
17:30:25 <ais523> # /home/ais523/esoteric/brainfuck/gccbf/gcc-4.2-4.2.3/gcc-20080201/configure --target=bf --prefix=/home/ais523/esoteric/brainfuck/gccbf/gcc-4.2-4.2.3/build2/buildinto --with-sysroot=/home/ais523/esoteric/brainfuck/gccbf/gcc-4.2-4.2.3/build2/buildinto --with-build-time-tools=/home/ais523/esoteric/brainfuck/gccbf/gcc-4.2-4.2.3/build2/buildinto/bin --disable-libssp --enable-languages=c
17:30:44 <ais523> also, it was with a patched Makefile
17:31:05 <ais523> it is, but in a different directory
17:31:21 <ais523> as I said, this thing is an utter mess
17:31:35 <AnMaster> well I'll guess I'll skip it for now
17:31:55 <ais523> because I got confused trying to figure out what had happened to the original build directory
17:32:01 <ais523> I probably have to make build3 sometime soon...
17:32:16 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean build system got borked
17:32:21 <ais523> no, it was working fine
17:32:26 <ais523> I just couldn't figure out how
17:32:47 <ais523> AnMaster: the whole thing is a mess of twisty little shell scripts, all alike
17:32:56 <ais523> which all reference hardcoded paths in other directories
17:33:14 <AnMaster> well I'm quite good at shell scripts, so I guess I could help clean it up
17:33:23 <AnMaster> I was thinking of doing that for iffi build script
17:33:32 <ais523> just... tracing what happens when is hard enough
17:33:39 <ais523> I'm not even sure I know which one you're meant to run first
17:33:48 <ais523> they're hard-coded relative paths
17:33:56 <ais523> but still, they're to things which should be elsewhere
17:34:05 <ais523> mostly it's that the directory structure they're in is confused
17:34:33 <ais523> here's one of them, as an example:
17:34:39 <ais523> make && make install && (cd ../buildinto/libexec/gcc/bf/4.2.3/install-tools/ ; ./mkheaders)
17:34:43 <AnMaster> ais523, btw did I tell you that cfunge builds under Open64 too?
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17:35:59 <AnMaster> no longer clang, since it seems clang silently miscompiled a feature used in cfunge, which however didn't affect cfunge (heh), but now it aborts on it instead
17:36:11 <AnMaster> but considering that clang is pre 0.0.1 still
17:36:31 <AnMaster> ais523, struct mystruct variable = { .fieldname = foo }
17:36:57 <AnMaster> something I use in many cases, often for clarity
17:37:07 <AnMaster> it is so much easier to see what is going on using it
17:37:57 <AnMaster> ais523, btw Open64 pretends to be GCC, even cmake gets confused by it (it manages to understand that icc isn't gcc, even though icc pretends to be)
17:38:14 <AnMaster> however it also accepts gcc flags
17:38:14 <ais523> does autoconf get confused by it?
17:38:22 <AnMaster> opencc WARNING: -Wdisabled-optimization is ignored
17:38:35 <ais523> it looks for what the compiler does, not what it is
17:38:56 <AnMaster> ais523, well so do I most of the time
17:39:10 <AnMaster> and I check that the warning flags actually work
17:39:36 <AnMaster> but the irritating bit here is that open64 claims it works then outputs a warning it is ignored
17:40:28 <ais523> AnMaster: check on code that shouldn't produce the warning too
17:40:32 <AnMaster> /home/anmaster/cfunge/trunk/src/interpreter.c:78:3: error: cannot codegen this initializer list with designators yet
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17:41:00 <AnMaster> ais523, well I do check that it compiles, checking compiler output would be more complex
17:41:34 <AnMaster> considering some compilers, like icc, tends to output even when everything is ok
17:41:43 <AnMaster> it's default verbosity level is rather high
17:42:12 <ais523> couldn't you use -Werror and check the exit code?
17:42:47 <AnMaster> since it seems to lack all form of man pages
17:42:54 <ais523> you can deduce whether it supports it or not
17:43:04 <ais523> you only need three tests
17:43:18 <ais523> warningy program without -Werror, non-warningy program with -Werror, warningy program with -Werror
17:43:24 <AnMaster> well I actually do a check for the compiler type before testing all the warning flags
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17:43:46 <ais523> if the third one is the only one with nonzero exit status, -Werror probably does what you want
17:44:04 <AnMaster> but seems it seems to be some "look like gcc" tournament it rather messes up the the check
17:45:44 <ais523> that's for header files
17:45:56 <ais523> just like everything defines STDC, even things that don't conform to the C standard
17:46:28 <AnMaster> only one that doesn't define __GNUC__ so far is tcc, which a) doesn't optimise except turning very basic constant arithmetic expressions into one value, such as 2*2 into 4. b) has too incomplete C99 support to get anywhere with cfunge.
17:46:39 <AnMaster> tcc compiles c-intercal though
17:46:53 <ais523> C-INTERCAL should in theory compile on everything which supports prototypes
17:46:57 <AnMaster> ais523, well IMO the defines should make sense
17:47:01 <ais523> it used to compile on compilers before that too, I think
17:47:14 <AnMaster> if I want to check for a specific compiler I should be able to
17:47:17 <ais523> whether it links is another matter, rather depends on what's in the standard library
17:47:23 <AnMaster> if I want to optionally use a feature of it
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17:47:54 <AnMaster> then if something defines that but it fails to understand that feature you have to realise how faulty the idea was in the first place
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17:48:14 <AnMaster> to pretend to do something you dont'
17:48:27 <ais523> AnMaster: anyway, I'm working on gcc-bf build3 right now
17:48:32 <ais523> once I figure out how it's done I'll tell you
17:48:39 <ais523> and this time I'll keep a record of everything that I do
17:48:49 <AnMaster> ais523, right. btw did I tell you about WLIW?
17:49:09 <AnMaster> I'm sure you know about VLIW architectures
17:49:11 <ais523> no, you mentioned it but didn't say what it was
17:50:09 <AnMaster> (VLIW being Very Long Instruction Word)
17:50:59 <AnMaster> I wonder why I didn't get any comment on the joke
17:51:14 <ais523> because it isn't a very good one...
17:52:21 <AnMaster> so a "groan" would have been the correct response
17:52:38 <ais523> no, groaning is done for jokes so bad you enjoy them
17:52:41 <ais523> whereas that one's just bland
17:52:42 <AnMaster> in fact since oerjan specialize in good puns
17:52:51 <AnMaster> I will specialize in bad and bland ones
17:53:16 <AnMaster> as a particle and an anti-particle
17:53:23 <AnMaster> this is the matching anti-joke
17:58:26 <ehird> AnMaster? a bland joke?
17:58:56 <AnMaster> ehird, yes indeed that is what my goal is
18:07:56 <AnMaster> ais523, coopt.sh in ick got a typo:
18:08:01 <AnMaster> # This optimizer is only run on noninteractive code that takes no
18:08:12 <AnMaster> unless you have used XCHG on them
18:08:26 <ais523> no, output is output in INTERCAL, but it's read
18:11:41 <AnMaster> ais523, so is the wording correct?
18:11:52 <ais523> but it's a comment bug, not as important as a code bug...
18:12:05 <AnMaster> also well yes from the user point of view the input is written and output read
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18:16:48 <AnMaster> ais523, i was thinking of fixing cftoec.sh to make it actually work
18:17:02 <AnMaster> however, do it need to use this pre-posix shell syntax?
18:17:12 <AnMaster> a posix shell can handle [] at least iirc
18:17:17 <ais523> AnMaster: as I've completely changed the build system around it there's no point
18:17:30 <AnMaster> ais523, compared to the last pushed version or what?
18:17:33 <ais523> also, why can't I write out test? it's in POSIX too
18:17:36 <ais523> no, not compared to last pushed
18:17:39 <ais523> compared to last release
18:17:46 <ais523> last pushed doesn't handle cfunge build at all
18:17:53 <AnMaster> I was thinking of making it work for out of build tree
18:18:37 <AnMaster> but I'm unsure how to figure that out
18:18:53 <ais523> AnMaster: it should work for both out-of-tree and in-tree
18:19:07 <AnMaster> run in build dir, first argument is path to ick source, second path to cfunge source
18:19:17 <AnMaster> for in tree it would be . for the first
18:19:42 <AnMaster> ais523, there is no gpl header or otherwise a copyright header so I'm unable to edit it
18:20:04 <ais523> AnMaster: it's GPLv2+, I should put an explicit header there though
18:20:21 <AnMaster> maybe autoconf could be made to insert source and build paths in the script?
18:21:31 <ais523> how would it work, a --with-cfunge=/home/AnMaster/cfunge?
18:21:31 <AnMaster> ah ../c-intercal/src/cooptsh.in
18:21:44 <AnMaster> ais523, hm maybe that would work
18:21:50 <AnMaster> don't like to mess with automess so...
18:21:58 <AnMaster> but I can make the script work somewhat
18:27:58 <AnMaster> man page only lists single dash here
18:28:21 <ais523> use info, gcc's man pages are really incomplete
18:28:49 <AnMaster> info pages are horribly hard to use
18:33:10 <AnMaster> find . -name '*.c' -printf "gcc $CFLAGS -c %p -o %f.o\n" | sh <-- huh?
18:35:31 <AnMaster> ./src/fingerprints/IFFI/IFFI.c:55: varning: implicit deklaration av funktionen "FungeSpaceCreate"
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18:43:13 <fizzie> There are nicer info readers than the default one; I always use "pinfo gcc" when I want GCC flags.
18:44:11 <fizzie> (Although it makes me sad that I have to have "considered non-free by Debian" packages installed just to see GCC documentation.)
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18:46:16 <fizzie> No, pinfo is free, GCC's docs aren't.
18:46:24 <AnMaster> ais523, well fixing all the build errors, expect a patch later today
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18:49:08 <AnMaster> unsigned char * restrict str = stack_pop_string(ip->stack);
18:49:16 <ais523> pinkillo: esoteric programming languages
18:49:34 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't, I think
18:49:36 <pinkillo> esoteric programming language??
18:49:41 <ais523> as ick_create was designed to be passed pointers to string literals
18:49:56 <ais523> pinkillo: programming languages outside the mainstream
18:50:00 <ais523> designed as jokes or for fun
18:50:06 <ais523> rather than for practical uese
18:50:50 <AnMaster> ais523, what does ick_create do?
18:51:03 <fizzie> Um... is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language supposed to look a bit... strange, or is my browser just acting up?
18:51:05 <ais523> AnMaster: implements a create statement
18:51:17 <ais523> basically it just puts an entry into a hash table
18:51:20 <ais523> which isn't a hash table really
18:51:20 <AnMaster> ais523, worth noting is that the pointer that stack_pop_string() returns may pointer to a larger alloced area than the string
18:51:27 <ais523> just a linear-search lookup table
18:51:30 <AnMaster> but may change without prior notice
18:51:34 <ais523> and it doesn't matter how large the alloced area is
18:51:50 <ais523> just as long as it doesn't mysteriously free behind my back
18:53:17 <AnMaster> ais523, however I expect a few things will be renamed soon
18:53:23 <AnMaster> in fact I'll rename them right now
18:53:36 <AnMaster> I saw some typos of my identifiers when I was editing the IFFI fingerprints
18:53:48 <AnMaster> and one that didn't get changed in name conversion
18:54:32 <pinkillo> what the differences between variable and constant???
18:54:59 <ais523> pinkillo: generally speaking, variables can change values and constants can't
18:55:11 <AnMaster> ais523, not true for SSA though
18:55:35 <ais523> and constants can change values in some langs, such as Forte, INTERCAL, and early versions of Fortran
18:55:45 <pinkillo> hash tables is taht a constant a varible a fonction an object???
18:55:53 <ais523> pinkillo: it's a data type
18:55:58 <ais523> so it's a sort of value
18:55:59 <AnMaster> ais523, certain pascal and/or delphi version
18:56:26 <AnMaster> allowed you to change constants
18:57:16 <ais523> C-INTERCAL will block blatant assignments like DO #1 <- #2 unless you give it the -v switch
18:57:25 <ais523> but there are various more devious ways to assign to constants
18:57:46 <AnMaster> well I guess you could in C using pointers
18:57:54 <AnMaster> except it wouldn't actually work
18:58:26 <ais523> AnMaster: actually, in some versions of C char* a="Hello, world!"'' *a='J'; works
18:58:35 <ais523> *AnMaster: actually, in some versions of C char* a="Hello, world!"; *a='J'; works
18:58:57 <AnMaster> it would work on older ones that lack memory protection I guess
18:59:09 <AnMaster> so you can't set memory as read only
18:59:38 <AnMaster> however since I don't work with such environments it is not anything I have ever seen
19:01:31 <pinkillo> why do you put '*' front of char ??? it is the same statement as DIM in basic?
19:02:12 <lament> pinkillo: habla usted C?
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19:05:14 <fizzie> Modifying a string literal works on this Alpha/Tru64-V5.1B box, which isn't that non-modern; even the hardware is from this millennium.
19:06:18 <fizzie> GCC 3.0; although the vendor's compiler does the same.
19:06:32 <ais523> AnMaster: gcc has a command-line option to not segfault when writing to a literal string
19:06:40 <AnMaster> ais523, had, iirc they removed it
19:06:49 <ais523> no, some old programs need it to compile
19:07:02 <AnMaster> ais523, if you mean writable-strings it is removed
19:08:53 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't find it in GCC 4.3.2 man page
19:08:55 <fizzie> http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-4.0/changes.html does say: "GCC no longer accepts the -fwritable-strings option. Use named character arrays when you need a writable string."
19:09:09 <ais523> strings are writable in gcc-bf, btw
19:09:14 <ais523> just as a side-effect of how I implement pointers
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19:09:35 <fizzie> Anyway, 3.0 isn't "old old", it's (again) this millennium.
19:10:38 <fizzie> "It's not old if it starts with a '2'."
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19:11:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I would be amazed if cfunge compiled on it
19:11:37 <AnMaster> cfunge does compile with gcc 3.4.6 iir
19:11:46 <AnMaster> I don't have any older to test with
19:12:30 <fizzie> There's no cmake on that box; is there a way to work around that? Although I'm not sure I'll bother.
19:12:34 <AnMaster> ais523, you said ick_create() wants a string literal?
19:12:40 <AnMaster> then why the heck do I get this for a const char*:
19:12:44 <AnMaster> ./src/fingerprints/IFFI/IFFI.c:111: warning: passing argument 1 of ‘ick_create’ discards qualifiers from pointer target type
19:12:52 <AnMaster> you need to fix your prototype to say const char*
19:13:04 <ais523> everywhere in the whole giant compiler
19:13:11 <ais523> C-INTERCAL was invented before const was, I think
19:13:14 <ais523> or at least before it caught on
19:13:28 <AnMaster> cfunge uses it correctly everywhere
19:14:19 <ais523> AnMaster: you have to get your head around just how old C-INTERCAL is, it used to not use header files but instead declare library functions inside functions
19:14:41 <ais523> as in main()int argc, char** argv{extern char* sprintf(); /*... */
19:14:57 <ais523> that still works I think, but I don't know anyone who's written it deliberately in decades
19:15:01 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and IFFI lacked a header file
19:15:08 <AnMaster> gettimeofday() is in sys/time.h
19:15:31 <AnMaster> anyway I replaced it with the logic for looking for clock_gettime() that i use in cfunge now
19:15:57 <AnMaster> err the last one wasn't related
19:16:00 <ais523> HAVE_clock_gettime's in my config.h
19:16:21 <AnMaster> ais523, defined to 0 or undefined when off?
19:16:32 <ais523> it's undef against defined to 1, IIRC
19:16:56 <AnMaster> ais523, remember what I said about no librt on freebsd
19:17:33 <ais523> hmm, I do but I haven't worked out a fix for it yet
19:17:43 <ais523> even a sane one would do
19:17:49 <AnMaster> CFUNGE_CHECK_FUNC(clock_gettime)
19:17:49 <AnMaster> if (NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_clock_gettime)
19:17:49 <AnMaster> endif (NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_clock_gettime)
19:17:58 <AnMaster> if (NOT ${LIBRT_LOCATION} STREQUAL "LIBRT_LOCATION-NOTFOUND")
19:17:58 <AnMaster> get_filename_component(LIBRT_PATH ${LIBRT_LOCATION} PATH)
19:17:58 <AnMaster> CFUNGE_CHECK_LIBRARY_FUNC(cfunge rt clock_gettime ${LIBRT_PATH})
19:17:58 <AnMaster> endif (NOT ${LIBRT_LOCATION} STREQUAL "LIBRT_LOCATION-NOTFOUND")
19:18:25 <ehird> does fungot prefer more common follow-ons in its babble
19:18:26 <fungot> ehird: " 195? 2. darwin thoroughly appreciated/ good work put into/ stocks, and snapdragons. -in fnord millefolium. -effect :) climate :) an opposite state, to/ height :) many hundred feet.
19:18:32 <AnMaster> but iirc autoconf got a "search in libraries, pick the first matching one" function, right?
19:18:39 <ais523> but ideally it would do something silly like chroot to a copy of the filesystem with a symlink in there, or use some sort of ldd hack to replace fopen librt to fopen libc
19:19:23 <ais523> AnMaster: I was trying to think up a really silly way around the problem
19:19:32 <fizzie> ehird: Hmm? Yes, the "next word" probabilities come directly from the n-gram frequencies; so if it has "foo bar" as context, and the data contains "foo bar baz" thrice and "foo bar quux" once, it selects baz with a 75 % probability and quux with 25 %.
19:19:44 <ais523> hmm... use fakeroot then I suppose
19:19:49 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin* discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
19:19:55 <ehird> I'm trying to think how to make a markov bot that is gud at the punctuatinz
19:19:57 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
19:19:59 <ais523> I think it can simulate chroots, not sure though
19:20:10 <ehird> i.e. has nested stuff, i guess, so parens[a b c] -> (a b c)
19:20:21 <fizzie> fungot would be reasonably good with punctuation if I just implemented what I did in the C++ code.
19:20:21 <fungot> fizzie: perhaps, if it were b, they'd already have stuck him full of probes and returned home, and realised i forgot to tell you
19:20:37 <AnMaster> — Macro: AC_SEARCH_LIBS (function, search-libs, [action-if-found], [action-if-not-found], [other-libraries])
19:20:37 <AnMaster> Search for a library defining function if it's not already available. This equates to calling `AC_LINK_IFELSE([AC_LANG_CALL([], [function])])' first with no libraries, then for each library listed in search-libs.
19:21:10 <fizzie> (Which was a stack of current "open paren/quote/etc" so that it could discard spurious ")"-like things, and finally stick all the necessary closing parts at the end of the output.)
19:21:12 <AnMaster> AC_SEARCH_LIBS(clock_gettime, rt)
19:21:46 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/manual/html_node/Libraries.html#Libraries
19:22:05 <ais523> yes, pity, but I'll probably use it anyway
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19:22:15 <ais523> and that would work with 0, 1 or 2 []s around each arg
19:22:45 <AnMaster> probably you need one around each
19:22:56 <AnMaster> ais523, and I don't know if it should be librt or just rt
19:23:01 <ais523> 1 or 2 would be the correct official amount
19:23:03 <AnMaster> for cmake you normally skip the "lib" part
19:23:14 <ais523> 2 as it's string literals, 1 as it's args, it doesn't matter because it comes to the same thing either way
19:23:28 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah 0 probably works...
19:24:12 <ais523> in case it's defined to something?
19:24:17 <ais523> you'd need 2 to protect against taht
19:24:33 <AnMaster> cfunge expects it on command line
19:24:38 <AnMaster> would need some changes in some way
19:24:44 <ais523> that's easy enough to fix
19:24:49 <ais523> you can choose where the substitutions go
19:24:58 <ais523> so just substitute into the makefile instead
19:25:01 <AnMaster> -DHAVE_acosl -DHAVE_asinl -DHAVE_atanl -DHAVE_cosl -DHAVE_powl -DHAVE_roundl -DHAVE_sinl -DHAVE_sqrtl -DHAVE_tanl -DHAVE_clock_gettime
19:25:08 <AnMaster> those are all the HAVE that I use
19:25:27 <ais523> I use quite a bit more than that IIRC
19:25:28 <AnMaster> for the math ones I fall back on the classical double versions
19:25:43 <AnMaster> ais523, well that is because I have a different "base line" that I support
19:26:18 <AnMaster> mine is FreeBSD 6.3 or POSIX.1-2001, whichever is the lowest
19:28:30 <AnMaster> ./src/fingerprints/IFFI/IFFI.c:43: warning: no previous prototype for ‘ick_SaveIPPosDelta’
19:28:30 <AnMaster> ./src/fingerprints/IFFI/IFFI.c:51: warning: no previous prototype for ‘ick_RestoreIPPosDelta’
19:28:30 <AnMaster> ./src/fingerprints/IFFI/IFFI.c:59: warning: no previous prototype for ‘ick_InterpreterRun’
19:28:30 <AnMaster> ./src/fingerprints/IFFI/IFFI.c:94: warning: no previous prototype for ‘ick_iffi_InterpreterOneIteration’
19:28:58 <ais523> AnMaster: that's because it's trying to link against code in C-INTERCAL itself
19:29:03 <ais523> presumably it would want me to put that in a shared header file
19:29:40 <AnMaster> ais523, you use CamelCase? Since cfunge use _ instead of CamelCase since some time
19:29:48 <AnMaster> that was the bulk of the changes I had to make
19:29:52 <ais523> haven't really had a chance to update it
19:30:03 <ais523> C-INTERCAL itself mostly uses lowercaseruntogethercase
19:30:13 <AnMaster> ‘ick_InterpreterRun’ isn't in ick itself
19:30:21 <AnMaster> it is just that it is missing from IFFI.h
19:30:41 <AnMaster> gcc complains because you didn't make it static, nor put it in a header
19:32:16 <AnMaster> well I used the same warning flags I used for cfunge normally to check the code, I found a bug with one of the functions I only have there for your sake thanks to that
19:32:26 <AnMaster> a missing cast in fungespace_load_string()
19:33:34 <AnMaster> ais523, where are they called from?
19:33:46 <AnMaster> since they aren't listed in "// Externally-visible functions from IFFI.c"
19:34:05 <ais523> let me try to remember
19:34:21 <ais523> ick_InterpreterRun is called from cfunge itself
19:34:25 <AnMaster> also there is a call to ick_InterpreterMainLoop() and that I got no clue where it is
19:34:45 <ais523> AnMaster: are you looking in the INTERCAL half of the IFFI stuff?
19:34:56 <ais523> that should explain where most of the missing references are
19:35:13 <AnMaster> ais523, where is the other half then?
19:35:34 <ais523> I've forgotten, let me try to find it
19:36:37 <ais523> AnMaster: pit/explib/ecto_b98.c:
19:36:57 <ais523> that's what's calling the functions
19:38:58 <AnMaster> ugh you mix forward declarations with external ones
19:40:03 <AnMaster> ais523, are you aware of that you are using mixed spaces and tabs for indention?
19:40:25 <ais523> that's correct, it saves on file size when transmitting over Usenet
19:40:35 <ais523> as long as tabs are set to 8 spaces, which is industry standard
19:40:53 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe it was, but no sane modern user or editor use that any more
19:41:25 <ais523> AnMaster: it stores the IP position and delta
19:41:46 <ais523> yes, but I wanted to make sure it was big enough even if the define was different
19:41:52 <AnMaster> and cfunge use either int32_t or int64_t
19:42:01 <AnMaster> and long long can be *anything*
19:42:09 <ais523> well, it has to be at least 64 bits
19:42:09 <AnMaster> you can't know how large long long is
19:42:13 <ais523> thus large enough to store the deltas
19:42:26 <ais523> I'm not relying on wraparound, it's signed anyway so you can't rely on behaviour for out-of-range
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19:44:23 <AnMaster> "The 0x70001ff1 is a magic number used specifically by this code"?
19:44:32 <AnMaster> yet I don't see that value except in the comment?
19:45:22 <AnMaster> it is one screen above the comment
19:45:35 <ais523> let me look at that again
19:45:40 <ais523> see if I can figure out how it happened
19:46:42 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, that's correct, it's commenting the use of the number two screenfuls down
19:47:00 <ais523> and it's at the top because the comment is about the control flow in the function
19:47:14 <ais523> which can either use autogenerated numbers (the very next line) or a magic number written later
19:47:23 * ais523 can write sane C, but chooses not to when working on C-INTERCAL
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19:47:51 <AnMaster> I didn't even understand that logic
19:48:19 <ais523> AnMaster: you need to know something of how ick_ec.h works to follow that logic
19:48:30 <ais523> and remember that INTERCAL code doesn't run from top to bottom
19:48:45 <ais523> it's sort of like annotating the target of a COME FROM to explain stuff about the COME FROM itself
19:48:52 <AnMaster> anyway what was the command to build using iffi, I mean building a test program
19:49:33 <ais523> ick -eb iffit1.i iffit2.b98
19:49:45 <ais523> iffit1.i and iffit2.b98 can be found in pit/tests
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19:50:38 <ais523> you don't need the -b if you like to live dangerously
19:50:42 <AnMaster> ais523, what about ecto_b98.c?
19:51:04 <ais523> AnMaster: that's linked in automatically when it sees -e and a file ending .b98
19:51:12 <AnMaster> ais523, so where does it look for the file?
19:51:14 <ais523> it's installed somewhere
19:51:21 <ais523> in /usr/share/ick-0.29 I think
19:51:34 <AnMaster> ah /home/anmaster/local/ick-iffi/share/ick-0.29/ecto_b98.c
19:51:34 <ais523> or possibly /usr/include
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19:51:59 <ais523> could be either I suppose, it should be in the place for "include files written in a different language"
19:52:27 <AnMaster> CAN ANYONE GIVE ME A HAND HERE?
19:52:47 <ais523> ugh, I can't remember what that one is straight off either
19:53:11 <ais523> AnMaster: it couldn't find libick_ecto_b98
19:53:20 <ais523> which is the file the build system's meant to have been building in the first plcae
19:54:59 <AnMaster> output doesn't match iffit.doc
19:55:15 <ais523> ugh, wrong command line
19:55:21 <ais523> that kept tripping me up too
19:55:33 <ais523> support for CREATE statements
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19:57:04 <AnMaster> It is an interesting challenge to try to figure out how the tests
19:57:05 <AnMaster> work, especially given that the Funge program is self-modifying, the
19:57:05 <AnMaster> statements in the INTERCAL program don't always do the same thing
19:57:05 <AnMaster> every time they're run, and the Funge program modifies the syntax of
19:57:05 <AnMaster> the INTERCAL program at runtime.
19:57:29 <ais523> this is needed for a thorough test suite...
19:57:46 <AnMaster> ais523, um didn't you say mid dot was the same in utf8?
19:58:21 <ais523> AnMaster: no, not in UTF8
19:58:21 <AnMaster> with iso-whatever it shows a middot, in utf8 it shows a box
19:58:30 <ais523> which is iso-whatever, yes
19:58:36 <ais523> it's the same in Unicode
19:58:54 <ais523> you'd need to use UTF-9 or bignum characters to get it to work in a Unicode character set
19:59:07 <ais523> and AFAIK nothing implements UTF-9, therefore I must add it to convickt I suppose
19:59:21 <ais523> AnMaster: nope, uses two bytes per char so is incompatible with Funge
19:59:35 <AnMaster> well UTF-9 wouldn't work either
19:59:36 <ais523> AnMaster: UTF-16 is UCS-2, pretty much, the differences are too minor to be relevant here
19:59:44 <ais523> AnMaster: it would on a 9-bit system
19:59:54 <ais523> AnMaster: why wouldn't CHAR_BIT=9 work?
20:00:07 <AnMaster> ais523, all types must be a multiple of CHAR_BITS
20:00:22 <AnMaster> so int can be 4 times as large for example
20:00:35 <ais523> AnMaster: your code is buggy
20:00:38 <AnMaster> if CHAR_BITS isn't a multiple of 2
20:00:40 <ais523> you should be using int_least32_t
20:00:52 <ais523> int32_t doesn't exist if there isn't a 32-bit type for it to refer to
20:00:54 <AnMaster> ais523, no I shouldn't, I'm using int32_t because that is what 32-bit funge means
20:01:06 <ais523> you could simulate it on a 36-bit system, surely?
20:01:15 <AnMaster> ais523, give me one to test on?
20:01:25 <ais523> I'd have to write an emulator first
20:01:35 <ais523> just because the technology doesn't exist, though, doesn't mean C-INTERCAL shouldn't handle it
20:01:38 <AnMaster> well POSIX.1-2001 says CHAR_BITS nowdays have to be exactly 8
20:01:46 <ais523> although I perfectly understand cfunge not running on that sort of thing
20:01:56 <AnMaster> since otherwise you can't have int8_t
20:02:18 <AnMaster> and using int_least8_t makes no sense if you need to read a binary file format for example
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20:03:22 <AnMaster> ais523, but really the C standard only allow a multiple of 2 these days
20:03:29 <fizzie> Don't those systems usually just read binary files as nonets where the highest bit is always zero?
20:03:51 <ais523> fizzie: probably they have options, and converters, and such
20:04:13 <ais523> I'm more worried with figuring out how to represent UTF-9 on an 8-bit system
20:04:19 <ais523> it would be in C-INTERCAL already if not for that
20:05:21 <AnMaster> ais523, err where is ick_iffi_handle_control called from
20:05:29 <AnMaster> it is implemented in ecto_b98.c
20:05:43 <AnMaster> but it doesn't seem to be called anywhere
20:06:26 <ais523> AnMaster: let me grep for it
20:06:31 <fizzie> ais523: You can represent it by packing your stuff stuff into units of four UTF-9 characters, and then representing those as 7 base64 characters; that should be perverse enough for everyone. And email-safe!
20:07:40 <ais523> AnMaster: what is it actually called?
20:07:46 <ais523> that name doesn't seem to appear anywhere in my repo
20:08:25 <AnMaster> where is char* ick_iffi_befungeString? Everywhere I look it is extern
20:08:34 <AnMaster> so where is the actual non-extern one
20:08:48 <ais523> AnMaster: both are in generated code
20:08:52 <ais523> that's why you couldn't find them
20:09:07 <ais523> for the first one, the name is irrelevant except the linker needs to find it somewhere
20:09:18 <AnMaster> ais523, so how can I rename it?
20:09:30 <AnMaster> since you seem to try to write the same style of names as I do
20:09:42 <AnMaster> so since I changed logically so should you
20:09:52 <ais523> the second one is in perpet.c
20:09:57 <AnMaster> and for ick_iffi_befungeString it needs to be changed to unsigned
20:10:05 <AnMaster> since that is what befunge expects nowdays
20:10:13 <ais523> AnMaster: but it's just a string literal
20:10:19 <ais523> and string literals aren't of type unsigned char*
20:10:33 <AnMaster> which on my system seems to be signed
20:10:52 <AnMaster> befunge uses unsigned char* for all strings nowdays
20:11:49 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway where is ick_iffi_handle_control named then?
20:12:12 <ais523> AnMaster: the name is irrelevant, it's just because it needs something to pass to the linker
20:12:19 <ais523> you could call it foo and the compiler wouldn't care
20:12:29 <AnMaster> so do I need to update some linker script?
20:12:32 <ais523> but then it might clash with a user-defined identifier foo if someone was linking INTERCAL/C/Befung
20:12:37 <ais523> and no, it's automatically handled
20:12:51 <ais523> the ICK_EC_FUNCTION_START generates the prototypes and the wrapper code and everything
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20:16:10 <AnMaster> /tmp/ecto_b98.c:78: error: expected ‘=’, ‘,’, ‘;’, ‘asm’ or ‘__attribute__’ before ‘ick_restore_ip_pos_delta’
20:16:23 <ais523> AnMaster: is that the first error?
20:16:30 <ais523> that normally means missing header file, IIRC
20:19:21 <AnMaster> ais523, does posix shell support +=
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20:22:43 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not sure
20:22:48 <ais523> I prefer to keep to very simple stuff
20:22:54 <ais523> it should run on shells from decades ago ideally
20:22:58 <AnMaster> # Please enable this when making changes. Requested by the cfunge author.
20:22:58 <AnMaster> #CFLAGS="$CFLAGS -Wall -Wextra -pedantic -Wpointer-arith -Wimplicit -Wnested-externs -Wcast-align -Wcast-qual -Wbad-function-cast -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wmissing-declarations -Wparentheses -Wshadow -Wundef -Wpacked -Wredundant-decls -Wfloat-equal -Wstrict-aliasing=2 -Wformat=2 -Wdisabled-optimization -Wmissing-noreturn -Wmissing-format-attribute -Wdeclaration-after-statement -Wunuse
20:22:58 <AnMaster> d-function -Wunused-label -Wunused-value -Wunused-variable -Wwrite-strings"
20:23:36 <AnMaster> well it is what i use in cfunge basically, well I use a few more that give spurious warnings for this code
20:23:47 <AnMaster> ais523, btw this prototype looks odd to me:
20:23:48 <AnMaster> extern void ick_create(char*, unsigned long);
20:23:52 <AnMaster> you are missing parameter names
20:24:02 <AnMaster> which are useful for understanding wtf the code does
20:26:21 <ais523> AnMaster: it creates an entry in a hash table
20:26:44 <ais523> if you like, call it char* signature, unsigned long line_number_variant_that_isnt_used_for_a_global_variable
20:26:52 <ais523> because all the names like lineno are already taken
20:28:03 <CakeProphet> hmmm... you don't have to put variable names in function prototypes?
20:28:05 <AnMaster> ais523, I have a 725 line diff here
20:28:30 <ais523> presumably it's mostly search-and-replace?
20:30:29 <oklopol> psygnisfive: yeah i watched
20:30:52 <AnMaster> ais523, it does not integrate it in build system, I can't manage that, but it would be easy to make it do so
20:31:03 <ais523> hmm... a start would be nice to work from though
20:31:07 <ais523> it would make it easier to integrate
20:32:55 <oklopol> our scetch shows are, in my experience, more experimental than say american ones on average
20:33:26 <oklopol> not sure if we're that much crazier as a people, i don't know that many amercans
20:34:30 <AnMaster> 6956 /mnt/phoenix/ick/c-intercal/iffi.diff
20:34:45 <AnMaster> and someone put it in the damn repo
20:35:09 <AnMaster> well why do so much change between autoconf versions
20:35:17 <AnMaster> -# Generated by GNU Autoconf 2.61 for C-INTERCAL 0.29.
20:35:17 <AnMaster> +# Generated by GNU Autoconf 2.63 for C-INTERCAL 0.29.
20:35:44 <ais523> AnMaster: it doesn't actually, it's just superficial things that annoy diff a lot
20:36:31 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the darcs command like svn st?
20:37:43 <ais523> I think it might be darcs whatsnew -s
20:40:20 <AnMaster> ais523, http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/tmp/iffi.diff
20:40:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I haven't done anything to make those HAVE_ work
20:40:51 <AnMaster> nor messed with autotools at all
20:41:03 <AnMaster> but the script now takes two parameters: ick source and cfunge source
20:41:13 <AnMaster> should be easy to modify to make autoconf set those
20:41:33 <AnMaster> and you need to cp the library yourself into the install
20:41:43 <ais523> and that needs fixing but shouldn't be too hard
20:41:53 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and you need the cfunge version I pushed just about an hour ago
20:41:54 <ais523> ever seen the gcc build system by the way, it's a nightmare
20:42:09 <AnMaster> new release: a few weeks probably
20:42:24 <AnMaster> and no I haven't looked at gcc build system
20:42:29 <ais523> also the diff has mixed tabs and spaces even in the code which is indented as pure tabs
20:42:36 <ais523> because of unidiffs putting spaces at the start of each line
20:42:41 <ais523> anyway, it's like autoconf but worse
20:42:44 <ais523> it's vaguely based on autoconf
20:42:49 <ais523> but filled with lots of shell scripting in between
20:42:52 <AnMaster> it puts a space at the start of each
20:43:06 <AnMaster> it *should* be correct elsewhere
20:44:05 <AnMaster> ../etc/cftoec.sh .. ../../cfunge/trunk
20:44:13 <AnMaster> ../etc/cftoec.sh: Permission denied
20:44:21 <AnMaster> ../etc/cftoec.sh: Permission denied
20:44:25 <AnMaster> ../etc/cftoec.sh .. ../../cfunge/trunk
20:44:45 <AnMaster> cp libick_ecto_b98.a /home/arvid/local/ick/lib/
20:45:20 <AnMaster> it refuses to use +x for anything
20:45:23 <ais523> what made you change away from CamelCase/
20:45:40 <AnMaster> ais523, an inner change of state of mind I guess
20:45:44 <ais523> AnMaster: it uses +x for files which were +x before they were added, just it doesn't store file permissions in the repo
20:46:12 <CakeProphet> I've always held a policy of minimum underscores.
20:46:25 <CakeProphet> because they take a long time to type for me
20:46:33 <ais523> AnMaster: I mean if you have a +x file
20:46:48 <ais523> but if darcs has to create it it doesn't know what perms to give it
20:47:19 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, why? _ takes as long as A
20:47:32 <ais523> depends on the keyboard layout probably
20:47:38 <ais523> also, shift-a's faster for me
20:47:44 <ais523> because I don't have to open my hand as much
20:47:56 <ais523> shift-A is two fingers right next to each other
20:47:59 <AnMaster> - is next to the right shift key
20:48:07 <AnMaster> so you can just use two fingers there twoo
20:48:08 <ais523> not on a typical UK or US keyboard
20:48:13 <ais523> - is to the right of 0
20:48:44 <AnMaster> { and } are horrible however when programming
20:49:19 <AnMaster> though erlang use {} for tuples
20:49:28 <AnMaster> but erlang is one of the few languages with really sane indention
20:49:48 <AnMaster> it uses neither {} nor indention
20:50:07 <AnMaster> . to end the last clause of a function
20:50:30 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway does the diff work for you?
20:50:57 <AnMaster> ais523, also I left the hard coded gcc
20:51:06 <AnMaster> I assumed you had some reason for it
20:51:13 <ais523> atm ick_ec won't compile under anything else
20:51:17 <ais523> I'd like to fix that at some point
20:51:23 <ais523> but I'm doing stupid compiler tricks as-is
20:52:31 <AnMaster> ais523, it compiles under icc iirc
20:52:45 <AnMaster> though with "gcc extensions" warning
20:53:35 <AnMaster> ais523, there is one place I can approve of "stupid compiler tricks" and that is kernel. The Linux kernel does some pretty strange compiler and linker tricks for example
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20:58:05 <AnMaster> ais523, so the patch works for you then? Want me to make some patches adding missing const?
20:58:47 <AnMaster> I assume you already tests if const exists...
21:13:10 <ais523> AnMaster: I haven't tested it yet, got sidetracked with something else
21:13:18 <ais523> I spend ages applying patches because I review them for ages first
21:13:31 <AnMaster> ais523, and what about the const bit?
21:14:28 <ais523> probably something for a later version
21:16:33 <AnMaster> ais523, I can make patches now
21:17:02 <ais523> feel free to go ahead if you do, and I'll review them some time later
21:18:34 <AnMaster> ais523, ok, what was the strange build procedure for clc now again?
21:18:39 <AnMaster> with the multi-pass compiling iirc?
21:19:04 <ais523> AnMaster: basically, it has an IASM interpreter in Perl
21:19:11 <ais523> and an INTERCAL -> IASM compiler, written in IASM
21:19:31 <ais523> sorry, the INTERCAL -> IASM compiler is written in IACC
21:19:40 <ais523> and there's a IACC -> IASM compiler written in IACC too
21:20:05 <ais523> so you compile the compiler to produce the compiler with the aid of a prebuilt compiler, then you compile the compiler that compiles the program with the new compiler, then compile the program
21:20:08 <ais523> and interpret the result
21:20:22 <AnMaster> didn't it support embedding perl into intercal
21:24:00 <ais523> AnMaster: have you seen IASM?
21:24:23 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure JITting it into pure Perl makes a whole lot of sense
21:25:23 <AnMaster> but was that ever a point considered with intercal?
21:25:40 <ais523> you're right, it would be impressive
21:25:43 <ais523> just I'm not sure it's possible
21:26:08 <AnMaster> then JIT the perl into C which you JIT into native code?
21:26:46 <AnMaster> need to write a lot of code of course
21:27:00 <AnMaster> anyway by that point it has probably become JTL
21:27:14 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL is a JTL compiler
21:27:18 <ais523> with exactly that expansion
21:28:02 <AnMaster> ais523, why was the reason for that name now again?
21:28:30 <ais523> because of the way it does CREATE
21:28:35 <ais523> when it reaches a syntax error, it errors
21:28:44 <ais523> then the error cleanup code recompiles the relevant bit of code
21:29:23 <AnMaster> what if the statement is valid but has another meaning before the create?
21:30:25 <ais523> I think it's invalidated
21:30:55 <ais523> the JTL is done even without CREATEs
21:31:06 <ais523> as the compiler just bundles a whole load of CREATEs with the program
21:31:18 <ais523> and what's bundled with the program is actually the compiler
21:31:23 <AnMaster> why not evaluate the CREATE as you run into them?
21:31:29 <AnMaster> instead of trying to continue anyway
21:32:14 <AnMaster> and how does it handle the possibility that output has already been performed?
21:32:40 <ais523> this is before running
21:32:48 <AnMaster> why not evaluate the CREATE as you run into them?
21:33:01 <ais523> because it's INTERCAL?
21:33:08 <ais523> also, that would cause repeated recompiling for short programs
21:33:22 <ais523> as they're more CREATE-laden than command-laden
21:33:26 <AnMaster> you could evaluate the CREATE as you compile
21:33:28 <ais523> also it fails if someone modifies the compiler itself
21:33:32 <ais523> or the syntax of CREATE itself
21:47:09 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
21:51:58 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/ick_ec.c: In function ‘ick_dounop’:
21:51:58 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/ick_ec.c:76: warning: initializer element is not computable at load time
21:52:03 <AnMaster> ais523, I got no clue what that means
21:52:23 <ais523> AnMaster: is the line in question inside a function?
21:52:36 <AnMaster> ick_createdata icd[3]={{16,0,1601,{og1,os1},arg1},
21:52:45 <AnMaster> the array is the one it warns on
21:52:53 <ais523> it's just complaining that it can't optimise the thing
21:52:58 <ais523> as it's filled in partly at runtime
21:53:00 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't that mean PIC code breaks?
21:53:19 <ais523> it's the same as filling in the structure at runtime
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21:53:27 <AnMaster> why does it complain at all then?
21:53:37 <ais523> because it can't have a nice constant initialiser it can blit into place
21:53:41 <ais523> it's less efficient that way
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21:54:44 <AnMaster> heh I tried to use csope for quick browsing but it gets confused by ick's source
21:55:13 <ais523> ick's source confuses lots of things, I have #if 0s to unconfuse emacs' auto-indenter for isntance
21:57:43 <AnMaster> 0 uncommon.h <global> 6 extern FILE* ick_findandfopen( char *, char *, char *, char *);
21:57:43 <AnMaster> 1 uncommon.h <global> 6 extern FILE* ick_findandfopen( char *, char *, char *, char *);
21:58:44 <AnMaster> ais523, er what does /*@observer@*/ mean?
21:59:11 <ais523> AnMaster: they're annotations for splint
21:59:15 <ais523> not correct ones though
21:59:20 <ais523> they're approximately right
21:59:27 <ais523> it's basically a memory leak checker
21:59:35 <AnMaster> since splint fails at C99 it means I don't use it
21:59:41 <ais523> observer means that the pointer is to something which isn't allocated or deallocated and is valid to start with
21:59:44 <ais523> as in, it takes a pointer
21:59:53 <ais523> and just looks at its contents
21:59:58 <ais523> and doesn't allocate or deallocate or anything
22:00:16 <ais523> dependent means that it's derived in some way from some other value, for instance it's a field in a struct and the struct itself is malloced
22:00:37 -!- Sgeo[College] has left (?).
22:00:44 <AnMaster> observer means it doesn't change either?
22:00:59 <ais523> const means it isn't allocated at all I think
22:01:05 <ais523> but it's a global that isn't changed
22:01:09 <ais523> anyway, it's a while since I annotated
22:01:10 <AnMaster> I mean it seems to be a *C* const
22:01:13 <ais523> and the annotations are wrong
22:01:31 <ais523> as it's mathematically impossible to correctly annotate a program that contains memory leaks
22:01:39 <ais523> and C-INTERCAL has memory leaks
22:01:50 <ais523> just I don't think splint can grasp the sort of memory structure it has
22:02:09 <ais523> it's the multithreading structure that creates the most havoc
22:02:24 <ais523> it's a linked ring of threads (like a linked list but the start and end connect)
22:02:35 <ais523> except that threads have stacks of threads growing from them
22:02:39 <AnMaster> ais523, also is there a reason not to put the names of the parameters in the prototypes in the headers?
22:02:39 <ais523> and the stacks can share tails
22:02:53 <ais523> and each element of each of those stacks can reference other elements anywhere due to sharing
22:03:08 <ais523> AnMaster: splint doesn't like it, if there's a macro with that name declared before the header's included the header breaks
22:03:15 <ais523> also, size in some cases
22:03:26 <ais523> when you have functions with 11 args, giving the params names is kind-of pointless
22:03:31 <ais523> better to write a comment explaining what they do
22:03:43 <AnMaster> a macro shouldn't be lower case
22:03:43 <ais523> rather than trying to fit the full crazy semantics into the prototype
22:04:37 <ais523> which wasn't designed for them
22:04:37 <ais523> AnMaster: it is in some cases
22:04:37 <ais523> for instance all the identifiers in stdio.h are in implementation namespace
22:04:37 <ais523> even the params in prototypes
22:04:37 <ais523> in case someone does #define fmt void
22:04:42 <AnMaster> and #define fmt void is pure insane
22:04:47 <ais523> then stdio does int printf(const char* fmt, ...)
22:04:56 <ais523> AnMaster: not according to the standard
22:05:02 <ais523> it's perfectly legal to do that then include stdio.h
22:05:31 <ais523> (later on, call vprintf)
22:05:39 <ehird> from what i can gather, AnMaster is continuing his usual paradox of "Follow the standards exactly" and "If someone fucks up let them burn"?
22:05:51 <ehird> i should just have someone relay me everything AnMaster says.
22:05:53 <ais523> gcc's install process includes a script merely to correct system headers for that pathological case
22:06:01 <ais523> and no, it's the ohter way round
22:06:24 <ais523> AnMaster is claiming that compilers shouldn't take care to support what I just wrote because it's obviously insane
22:06:33 <ais523> well, yes, it is, but the standard doesn't disallow it
22:06:48 <ehird> but AnMaster rigidly supports standards.
22:06:54 <ehird> so he cannot reconcile those two opinions.
22:07:51 <AnMaster> ais523, does ick do anything like that?
22:08:00 <AnMaster> if not it isn't an issue in internal headers
22:08:11 <ais523> but if you've ever used splint, it's one of the most pathologically scrupulous lint versions ever
22:08:16 <ais523> maybe I should run it on cfunge just for fun
22:08:26 <ehird> "Error: Code is broken."
22:08:40 <AnMaster> it fails on a simple for (int i...) for example
22:08:47 -!- Corun has joined.
22:08:51 <ais523> but it reports all sorts of things at the highest level which should never be a problem for anyone in practice
22:08:53 <AnMaster> or the { .fieldname ... } thing
22:08:59 <ais523> and I approve of that, personally
22:09:22 <AnMaster> since it complains about unknown functions
22:09:28 <AnMaster> and man says part of the 1993 POSIX
22:09:34 <AnMaster> even when using the +posixwhatever flag
22:09:46 <ais523> AnMaster: you can create a splint information library to get around that
22:10:03 <AnMaster> ais523, it should be able to look at the system headers to find out
22:10:04 <ais523> it's just difficult to use, and simultaneously crazily overengineered and crazily underengineered
22:10:08 <ais523> and as an esoprogrammer, I like that
22:10:23 <AnMaster> except it totally fails to parse anything
22:10:45 <AnMaster> and it wants you to cast the result from malloc
22:12:04 <ais523> probably you had it set up wrong; the problem is setting it up right is very hard
22:12:32 <AnMaster> ais523, well I don't know. I sent a mail about the C99 issue. I never got any answer
22:13:04 <AnMaster> yay uncommon.c is warning free
22:13:19 <ais523> hmm... uncommon.c is used by everything, so that's nice
22:13:34 <AnMaster> ais523, well correctly const warnings
22:13:50 <AnMaster> I'm not insane enough to use all the warnings cfunge use for ick
22:13:52 <fizzie> My splint (completely without flags) doesn't want me to cast malloc.
22:14:06 <AnMaster> ais523: just -Wall -Wextra -pedantic -Wwrite-strings
22:14:51 <ais523> just as long as you don't turn on unsafe loop optimisations...
22:16:21 <fizzie> (Not even "splint +strict" wants me to cast malloc's return value; although in that mode it does complain about testing whether foo is NULL or not with "if (foo)"...)
22:16:32 <AnMaster> ugh returning a pointer to a static buffer
22:16:49 <ehird> ais523: careful, the name C-INTERCAL starts with a c just like cfunge
22:16:55 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I'm not that insane
22:17:18 <ais523> AnMaster: which return pointer to static function are you worried about?
22:17:38 <AnMaster> ret = ick_debfopen(buf2,mode); /* where it ought to be */
22:17:38 <AnMaster> if(ret) {(void) fclose(ret); return buf2;}
22:18:45 <ais523> that one doesn't always return a pointer to a static buffer
22:18:51 <ais523> sometimes it returns a pointer to argv instead
22:19:22 <AnMaster> ais523, btw would it be possible to make it return const char* ?
22:19:33 <AnMaster> or would that mess up elsewhere
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22:19:43 <ais523> you can return a char* as const char*, can't you
22:19:46 <ais523> so probably it would be safe
22:19:56 <ais523> I think the result is only ever used immediately
22:19:58 <AnMaster> ais523, well it would cause issues elsewhere if you tried to change it
22:20:11 <ais523> not sure though, let me grep the code as usual
22:20:15 <AnMaster> it makes it possible to get rid of warnings in the case it returns the argument file
22:20:29 <AnMaster> and that is sometimes a string constant it seems
22:20:50 <ais523> even better, it's a string constant passed in from configure via the makefile
22:21:08 <ais523> anyway, anything that's input as observer is safe to return as const
22:21:11 <ais523> at least if I have the annotations right
22:21:27 <ais523> except in the case that the caller owns the observer in question
22:21:57 <AnMaster> anyway you can't make it return a const char* as a char* logically
22:22:08 <AnMaster> in C it is a warning not an error
22:22:22 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/yuk.c:185: warning: ISO C90 does not support the ‘ll’ printf length modifier
22:22:26 <ais523> const_cast<char*>(my_const_char_argument)
22:22:41 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/yuk.c:183:35: warning: use of C99 long long integer constant
22:22:41 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/yuk.c:184:14: warning: use of C99 long long integer constant
22:22:41 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/yuk.c:184:37: warning: use of C99 long long integer constant
22:22:51 <ais523> C99 in yuk.c is an error
22:23:07 <ais523> unless suddenty C-INTERCAL needs C99 to be able to debug it
22:23:08 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/yuk.c:182:25: warning: use of C99 long long integer constant
22:23:08 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/yuk.c:182:53: warning: use of C99 long long integer constant
22:23:08 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/yuk.c:183:13: warning: use of C99 long long integer constant
22:23:08 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/yuk.c:183:35: warning: use of C99 long long integer constant
22:23:08 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/yuk.c:184:14: warning: use of C99 long long integer constant
22:23:09 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/yuk.c:184:37: warning: use of C99 long long integer constant
22:23:14 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/yuk.c:185: warning: ISO C90 does not support the ‘ll’ printf length modifier
22:23:15 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/yuk.c:185: warning: ISO C90 does not support the ‘ll’ printf length modifier
22:23:17 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/yuk.c:185: warning: ISO C90 does not support the ‘ll’ printf length modifier
22:23:19 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/yuk.c:185: warning: ISO C90 does not support the ‘ll’ printf length modifier
22:23:21 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/yuk.c:185: warning: ISO C90 does not support the ‘ll’ printf length modifier
22:23:23 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/yuk.c:185: warning: ISO C90 does not support the ‘ll’ printf length modifier
22:23:24 <ais523> are there any actual long longs in there?
22:23:25 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/perpet.c:697:8: warning: C++ style comments are not allowed in ISO C90
22:23:49 <ais523> ugh, that's serious if it isn't temporary
22:23:57 <ais523> I use // comments for debug stuff deliberately
22:24:02 <AnMaster> ais523, YPTIMERTFORMAT seems to be %ll
22:24:07 <ais523> so I can compile as strict to get the warnings to see where it is
22:24:12 <ais523> oh, and if it's YPTIMERTFORMAT that's fine
22:24:20 <ais523> config.h works out if long long is available
22:24:31 <ais523> the YPTIMERTYPE stuff has lots of different settings
22:24:41 <ais523> some of which are C89, some are C99, some are POSIX and some aren't even that
22:24:48 <ais523> there's a SunOS-specific version of it
22:25:02 <ais523> you can override YPTIMERTIME to 0 by hand in yuk.h to avoid the warnings
22:25:09 <ais523> if you don't mind a really bad profile resolution
22:25:22 <ais523> so it's C99 because configure determined that C99 was safe there
22:25:36 <ais523> but on a C89 system YPTIMERTFORMAT would be something else
22:26:46 <ais523> therefore it will never be parsed
22:26:56 <AnMaster> ais523, well tell that to gcc 4.3.2
22:27:00 <ais523> comments happen before pp-directives don't they
22:27:06 <ais523> ah, but it's not a problem
22:27:09 <GregorR> HAHAHAH, nothing will ever happen on #esoteric again!
22:27:10 <ais523> in C89 it isn't a comment
22:27:22 <ais523> but syntax errors are harmless inside #if 0
22:27:29 <ais523> so it's very very INTERCAL in fact
22:27:37 <ais523> a syntax error which never runs, that's how INTERCAL does comments...
22:27:49 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/perpet.c:300: warning: assignment discards qualifiers from pointer target type
22:28:00 <ais523> that's presumably a result of your const changes?
22:28:29 <ais523> presumably you changed somewhere else
22:28:43 <AnMaster> ais523, no I simply enabled the relevant -W :P
22:28:49 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/perpet.c:559: warning: format not a string literal, argument types not checked
22:28:49 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/perpet.c:559: warning: format not a string literal, argument types not checked
22:29:15 <AnMaster> ais523, gcc can check that format is correct if it is a literal
22:29:30 <ais523> yes, I did know about format checking
22:29:37 <ais523> however, I'm interpolating something into a format arg there
22:29:44 <AnMaster> (void) sprintf(buf2, tempfn, argv[optind]);
22:29:44 <AnMaster> (void) snprintf(buf2, sizeof buf2, tempfn, argv[optind]);
22:29:48 <ais523> probably it's worth checking separately if there's a printf injection bug there
22:30:22 <ais523> actually, it's just hiding the underlying problem
22:30:25 <AnMaster> also it would fix that "need to fix up emacs"
22:30:30 <ais523> which is that there's a buffer overflow if you don't have snprintf
22:30:46 <AnMaster> ais523, yes true, but then there is no solution to it
22:30:51 <AnMaster> since you don't have it anyway
22:30:59 <ais523> you could implement it yourself I suppose
22:31:04 <fizzie> Didn't you just say that a macro shouldn't be in lowercase? :p
22:31:10 <ais523> but what I really need is an assert_snprintf
22:31:14 <ais523> which snprintfs if needed
22:31:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, true, but a macro function vs a defined constant
22:31:26 <ais523> and if ther would be a buffer overflow it barfs spectacularly
22:31:37 <ais523> raise(SIGSEGV) maybe, it comes to the same thing in the end
22:31:39 <AnMaster> ais523, ah I think I have seen it
22:31:48 <AnMaster> let me take a look at the crossfire source
22:32:05 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure it barfs if sprintf says it overflowed
22:32:20 <ais523> AnMaster: I'll just reimplement it myself
22:32:47 <ais523> still, I don't want the INTERCAL licence situation to get even more muddled than it is
22:32:52 <AnMaster> even contains several variants of tempnam()
22:33:04 <ais523> I have a dream of chasing down the contributors and getting them to relicence bits of it sometime
22:33:14 <ais523> also C-INTERCAL's temporary naming system is even worse
22:33:18 <ais523> as it uses hardcoded names in /tmp
22:33:30 <ais523> so you can't run two copies of it in parallel safely
22:33:46 <AnMaster> and it does a linear search every time
22:34:21 <AnMaster> starting at (in settings.tmpdir) crossfire.pid.0
22:34:28 <AnMaster> and then incrementing the last digit
22:34:41 <ais523> how does that not lead to collisions?
22:34:41 <AnMaster> so it is O(n) where n is current number of temp files
22:34:57 <AnMaster> and it expects you to set a custom temp dir
22:35:24 <AnMaster> ais523, crossfire is from 1992, the oldest parts I mean
22:35:34 <ais523> C-INTERCAL is older I think
22:36:11 <ais523> yep, intercal-0.3.shar is dated 1990
22:36:23 <ais523> so C89 was very new back then
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22:36:31 <ais523> and C99 hadn't even been thought of
22:36:53 <ais523> you can go mad trying to track how argv changes throughout C-INTERCAL
22:37:05 <AnMaster> ais523, why are you editing argv?
22:37:13 <ais523> and because the C standard says you cna, and the code already did that when I got to it
22:37:33 <AnMaster> ais523, ok but what are you using it for+
22:37:35 <ais523> most of what it does puts NULs in there to replace dots
22:37:41 <ais523> in order to strip off file extensions
22:37:45 <AnMaster> /* Sort out the ecto_b98 expansion library. */
22:37:47 <fizzie> A lot of people edit argv; it's great fun, changing the command line as it shows up in places.
22:37:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't work the way it does it
22:37:59 <ais523> fizzie: I hadn't even thought of that side effect
22:38:14 <AnMaster> or it doesn't work on linux afaik
22:38:19 <ais523> AnMaster: I edit in place too
22:38:22 <ais523> just not that bit of code
22:38:37 <ais523> well, not me, someone else wrote the bit that sets '.' to '\0' at the end of the filenames
22:38:57 <ais523> oh, I thought you mean it had a function for stripping extensions in-place in argv
22:39:07 <ais523> that would be an oh my moment
22:39:39 <AnMaster> "oh fuck why am I even looking at this code"
22:40:19 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/perpet.c:1087: warning: comparison between signed and unsigned
22:40:20 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/perpet.c:1107: warning: comparison between signed and unsigned
22:40:53 <ais523> I reckon there's at least a 50% chance there's something in CPAN to do that for Perl
22:41:16 <fizzie> I think a perennial favourite of forcibly lying about the process name is to rename your "nethack" game to "emacs thesis.tex".
22:41:59 <ais523> fizzie: how risky, you should make it a symlink instead
22:42:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't work since nethack is sgid games
22:42:49 <AnMaster> like too long name to edit in place on linux
22:42:52 <ais523> the symlink method would work if not for the wrapper script
22:42:56 <ais523> but you can just run directly
22:43:18 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/perpet.c:268: warning: no previous prototype for ‘isenv’
22:43:36 <ehird> http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~canou/obrowser/tutorial/
22:43:44 <ais523> AnMaster: the 1087 warning is due to reusing a general-purpose temporary
22:43:59 <ais523> which should be unsigned in context but is in fact signed
22:44:06 <fizzie> Can't you just execve(3) it with any argv[0] you like?
22:44:06 <ais523> AnMaster: there's a temporary variable called i
22:44:10 <ais523> which is used for lots of stuff
22:44:19 <ais523> and no, casting is the wrong solution here
22:44:29 <ais523> the solution is to use a temporary variable that isn't hideously overloaded
22:44:32 <AnMaster> well just um use C99 with for (int i
22:44:41 <AnMaster> of course not an option indeed
22:45:01 <ais523> and of course the ironic thing here is that i only takes values in about the range 0-50
22:45:08 <ais523> so it isn't actually an issue in the first place
22:45:13 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/perpet.c:269: warning: ‘isenv’ defined but not used
22:45:15 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:46:37 <ais523> yes, that's because djgpp doesn't have a real /tmp dir
22:46:41 <ais523> so it's looking for a temporary directory
22:46:57 <ais523> that's one of my few concessions to Windows, that one of the env vars it checks is something it defines
22:50:51 <AnMaster> http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/tmp/const1.diff
22:51:20 <AnMaster> I suspect small patches are easier to review
22:51:37 <AnMaster> ais523, if you want to ask questions about it hurry up since I'm going to bed soon
22:51:54 <AnMaster> ais523, ignore the config.h stuf changes
22:52:00 <ais523> ehird: why does all the text behind that link change colour when I mouseover?
22:52:39 <ais523> AnMaster: it looks like normal const addition
22:52:54 <ais523> I'd probably run it all through splint and see if anything broke, then through gcc and see if anything broke
22:53:04 <fizzie> p:hover { background-color: #ddf8ff }
22:53:14 <AnMaster> ais523, since splint is insane
22:53:16 <fizzie> Now that's a very strange style to set.
22:53:21 <ais523> messing with static could potentially be risky, but I don't think so; I added static a couple of versions back
22:53:26 <ais523> after splinting the whole thing
22:53:41 <ais523> ehird: your browser clearly doesn't implement CSS3 properly if it isn't happening to you
22:53:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I checked that those static functions weren't used anywhere else
22:54:01 <ehird> that's not even css3
22:54:06 <ais523> obviously I must have missed them the first time
22:54:07 <ehird> if you mean the Abstract: and such
22:54:10 <ehird> the background changes
22:54:11 <ais523> ehird: it is for tags other than <a>, isn't it?
22:54:13 <ehird> but the actual content... no
22:54:22 <ehird> that is, iirc, css1
22:54:23 <AnMaster> it is only used on DJPPG thingy too
22:54:35 <ais523> ehird: all the P tags, not just the abstract
22:54:43 <ais523> even lower down, the code examples don't but the explanation text does
22:56:15 <fizzie> It's not CSS-anything where :hover works: "CSS doesn't define which elements may be in the above states, or how the states are entered and left." (in CSS2.1, at least.)
22:56:18 <ais523> I especially like the way they use .exe as an extension for OCaml bytecode
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22:58:06 <fizzie> Personally I have a soft spot for insane uses of JavaScript; maybe I should do something strange with it at some point.
22:59:01 <ais523> fizzie: functional JS is fun, but that's been done
22:59:20 <ais523> maybe we should get olsner to compile my Underload interp in Thue to mod_rewrite
22:59:30 <ais523> and have the very slowest Underload interpreter ever
22:59:36 <ais523> but that's not JS, just vaguely webby
23:01:34 <AnMaster> ais523, is mod_rewrite allowed to run for that long?
23:01:41 <AnMaster> wouldn't it abort like mediawiki
23:03:56 <AnMaster> ais523, is it safe to make ick_numerals const?
23:04:11 <ais523> I don't think so, doesn't clockface() edit it?
23:04:22 <ais523> the word list should be OK though
23:04:48 <AnMaster> I want char*name to be const char*name
23:04:53 <ais523> ick_numerals should be fine
23:04:59 <ais523> and I think char* name can be const too
23:04:59 <AnMaster> that will get rid of lots and lots of warnings
23:05:14 <AnMaster> ais523, you said clockface edits it?
23:05:23 <ais523> it changes a different array
23:05:29 <ais523> which is in abcess.h, probably
23:05:53 <AnMaster> ais523, ick_numerals isn't extern elsewhere
23:06:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I quote this filename.
23:06:36 <AnMaster> oil.y:281: warning: assignment discards qualifiers from pointer target type
23:06:36 <AnMaster> oil.y:281: warning: assignment discards qualifiers from pointer target type
23:06:36 <AnMaster> oil.y:282: warning: assignment discards qualifiers from pointer target type
23:06:36 <AnMaster> oil.y:282: warning: assignment discards qualifiers from pointer target type
23:06:36 <AnMaster> oil.y:283: warning: assignment discards qualifiers from pointer target type
23:06:37 <AnMaster> oil.y:283: warning: assignment discards qualifiers from pointer target type
23:06:39 <ais523> $ grep -n numerals.c *
23:06:40 <ais523> cesspool.c:47:#include "numerals.c"
23:08:01 <ais523> it's a char* element of a struct
23:08:01 <AnMaster> char* condition; /* Points to a constant string; the condition to generate
23:08:06 <ais523> which has string literals assigned to it
23:08:20 <ais523> "Points to a constant string" that sounds very like const char* to me
23:08:29 <AnMaster> " Could also point to something the lexer
23:08:29 <AnMaster> mallocs, but then the lexer has to keep track of being
23:09:06 <ais523> AnMaster: the fact that it could hold a constant string means it won't change
23:09:09 <AnMaster> ais523, only helped with half of the warnings
23:09:18 <ais523> the next char* should be const char* too
23:09:54 <ais523> why do you ask? compile and find out
23:10:03 <ais523> if it isn't safe you'll get an error for modifying something const
23:10:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I may not be able to trigger a case where it fails at runtime
23:10:20 <ais523> it will fail at compile time if you write to a const
23:10:25 <ais523> unless there's a dangerous cast in there
23:10:34 <AnMaster> yes but not if you pass it to something taking a char*
23:10:37 <ais523> which there aren't because there's no need to cast to char* if everything's char* already
23:10:39 <ais523> AnMaster: that's an error
23:10:46 <ais523> well, you'll notice it won't you
23:11:07 <AnMaster> ais523, with the crapload of other warnings it spews?
23:11:22 <ais523> or you could turn on just the particular warning you wany
23:11:33 <ais523> for that matter, someone should develop a warningdiff tool
23:11:37 <ais523> which saves compiler output
23:11:37 <AnMaster> ais523, the autoconf output is rather messy and hard to read
23:11:45 <ais523> and then it tells you what changed
23:11:57 <ais523> why are you doing make clean every time?
23:12:04 <AnMaster> ais523, hard to diff otherwise
23:12:28 <ais523> hmm... couldn't you make, touch, make
23:12:39 <ais523> then make, touch, make again
23:12:42 <ais523> if you touched the same file each time
23:12:47 <ais523> the same bits would recompile
23:12:58 <AnMaster> but I often jump between files when I edit
23:13:16 <AnMaster> a sane colour coded output would
23:13:25 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/feh2.c:491: warning: initialization discards qualifiers from pointer target type
23:13:41 <ais523> AnMaster: do make mostlyclean rather than make clean, does that help?
23:13:55 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, that one's fun
23:14:00 <AnMaster> ais523, it takes like 20 seconds to build
23:14:06 <ais523> it's how I make enablers be an array indexed from -1
23:14:17 <ais523> then define enablers to be enablersm1 + 1
23:14:24 <ais523> or at least hope it is
23:14:30 <ais523> as it's a list of all the commands handled at compile-time
23:14:38 <AnMaster> 0 feh2.c <global> 462 char *enablersm1[MAXTYPES+1] =
23:14:39 <AnMaster> 1 feh2.c <global> 498 char ** enablers = enablersm1+1;
23:14:39 <AnMaster> 2 ick.h <global> 132 extern char *enablersm1[MAXTYPES+1];
23:15:45 <ais523> AnMaster: it basically is a human-readable name for each command
23:16:01 <ais523> AnMaster: feh.c was split into two files
23:16:06 <ais523> which are feh2.c and dekludge,c
23:16:20 <ais523> feh.h applies to the stuff in both
23:17:39 <AnMaster> ais523, ick builds quickly so make clean is no issue
23:18:02 <AnMaster> parser.c: In function ‘yyparse’:
23:18:02 <AnMaster> parser.c:2781: warning: passing argument 1 of ‘yyerror’ discards qualifiers from pointer target type
23:18:02 <AnMaster> parser.c:2927: warning: passing argument 1 of ‘yyerror’ discards qualifiers from pointer target type
23:18:10 <ais523> "ick builds quickly" <--- yay, something is seriously wrong with the world
23:18:18 <ais523> AnMaster: parser.c is generated code
23:18:27 <AnMaster> ais523, well is the yyerror too?
23:18:49 <ais523> what does it do with it?
23:18:53 <ais523> and where's yyerror defined
23:18:54 <AnMaster> ais523, also that is what happens when you pass const to non-const
23:19:18 <ais523> that's declared not defined
23:19:53 <AnMaster> ./prebuilt/parser.c:extern int yyerror(char*);
23:19:53 <AnMaster> ./prebuilt/oil-oil.c:int yyerror(char const *);
23:19:53 <AnMaster> ./prebuilt/oil-oil.c:int yyerror(char const *s)
23:19:57 <ais523> you have to change the definition as well as the declaration
23:20:10 <ais523> AnMaster: prebuilt is fun, it's for people without lex and yacc
23:20:19 <ais523> also in the repo, but you can ignore it if you have lex and yacc workalikes yourself
23:20:59 <AnMaster> lexer.l:496: warning: no previous prototype for ‘yyerror’
23:20:59 <AnMaster> lexer.c:2409: warning: ‘yyunput’ defined but not used
23:20:59 <AnMaster> lexer.c:2452: warning: ‘input’ defined but not used
23:21:24 <ais523> AnMaster: its argument is potentially wchar_t
23:21:32 <ais523> although I think we gave up on the wchar_t stuff
23:21:37 <ais523> because it was too confusing
23:21:52 <AnMaster> though gcc doesn't see any string literal passed to it
23:21:53 <ais523> what it does, is it copies its arg into a char array
23:22:03 <ais523> it is being passed a char*
23:22:10 <ais523> which returns everything as char*s
23:22:18 <ais523> just like all C code does before it's constified everywhere
23:22:27 <ais523> but yes, modifying it is probably a bad idea
23:22:48 <olsner> OMG SOMEONE SAID SOMETHING TO ME
23:23:05 <AnMaster> ais523, the code doesn't currently modify it
23:23:18 <ais523> I was referencing the Thue -> mod_rewrite compiler
23:23:20 <olsner> AnMaster: yes, someone actually did.. I'm so happy now
23:23:24 <ais523> AnMaster: no, nor should it
23:23:34 <ais523> olsner: did you see my Underload interp in Thue?
23:23:36 <AnMaster> ../c-intercal/src/cesspool.c:401: warning: passing argument 3 of ‘ick_clc_cset_convert’ discards qualifiers from pointer target type
23:23:39 <ais523> it's the slowest Underload interp I know
23:23:55 <ais523> and I thought it would be fun to combine it with your mod_rewrite stuff to make one that was even slower
23:23:58 <olsner> it'll be even slower in mod_rewrite I promise you
23:24:21 <ais523> ick_clc_cset_convert isn't a function I even like thinking about the call pattern of
23:24:25 <olsner> and apache has memory leaks, it doesn't free the memory for mod_rewrite until it's finished with the whole request
23:24:29 <ais523> it has arguments everywhere going both ways
23:24:40 <olsner> so anything larger than fruit flies will just OOM the web server :)
23:24:43 <AnMaster> ais523, oh well I have that sometimes, out parameters and in parameters
23:24:56 <ais523> olsner: I'm kind of curious as to how long it would take to do hello world now
23:25:10 <ais523> AnMaster: it's worse than it seems, because it can take some of its inputs either from files or from global variables
23:25:24 <AnMaster> ais523, ok, what ones are safe to const?
23:25:48 <olsner> getting late now though... I'll have to look into this tomorrow
23:26:51 <olsner> feel free to give the thue->mod_rewrite a test run though (hey, it's just a four-line sed script amyway...)
23:27:02 <ehird> cc by-sa 3.0 is the best license for creative works. discuss.
23:27:14 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not sure offhand
23:27:33 <AnMaster> well parameter 3 and 4 are straightforward
23:27:46 <ais523> really, I can't remember what half the arguments to that thing do
23:27:49 <ais523> luckily there are annotations
23:27:56 <fizzie> "<AnMaster> ehird, I agree" -- that's something you don't see every day. Were you people doing the ignore thing still?
23:28:09 <AnMaster> ais523, well I could easily track incset/outcset control flow
23:28:09 <ais523> (that's the good thing about Splint, the annotation reminds me wtf the args are meant to do)
23:28:20 <ehird> fizzie: Still ignoring him. Tell him that actually i was being sarcastic even though I wasn't; it'll restore the universal balance.
23:28:42 <ais523> in this case the partial marker means that that struct has members some of which are inputs and some of which are outputs
23:29:00 <AnMaster> ais523, suggestion, move extern int ick_clc_cset_convert(... out of cesspool.c to some header
23:29:02 <fizzie> ehird: He'll see that without any explicit telling, anyway. But it's good to keep the balance.
23:29:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I agree it is a good way to keep the balance
23:29:29 <ais523> I use it in a couple of places
23:29:45 <ais523> just I have this strange attitude where I like sharing source between executables, but not headers
23:29:46 <AnMaster> ais523, clc-cset.h could be created
23:29:56 <ais523> that's completely backwards of course
23:30:04 <ais523> creating a header file is the sane solution
23:30:27 <ais523> hmm... maybe I should make a polyglot header file/source, it would simplify maintenance
23:30:33 <ais523> put #defines so you can #define HEADER
23:30:38 <ais523> then include all the source files
23:30:45 <ais523> and it just includes the prototypes
23:30:50 <ais523> in theory, this makes maintenance a lot easier
23:31:01 <AnMaster> ais523, you can use gcc -combine to debug such defines
23:31:12 <ais523> AnMaster: you're acting like this is actually a good idea...
23:31:25 <AnMaster> ais523, you can check that externs match using gcc -combine
23:31:32 <ais523> gcc -combine would fail on C-INTERCAL
23:31:40 <ais523> partly because it fits together multiple ways
23:31:45 <ehird> hmm, since AnMaster said "even though I wasn't" the universe is still out of balance
23:31:48 <ais523> there are various subsets of the files involved that works
23:31:49 <ehird> ok, let's try this:
23:31:56 <ehird> bsd3 is the best license for codeular works. discuss.
23:31:59 <ais523> and you get a different program each way
23:32:10 <AnMaster> ais523, "<AnMaster> ehird, I agree it is a good way to keep the balance" <-- tell ehird that
23:32:26 <ais523> +ul (<AnMaster> ais523, "<AnMaster> ehird, I agree it is a good way to keep the balance" <-- tell ehird that)S
23:32:26 <thutubot> <AnMaster> ais523, "<AnMaster> ehird, I agree it is a good way to keep the balance" <-- tell ehird that
23:32:41 <ehird> yeah, like AnMaster would know anything bout sum universal balance
23:33:23 <AnMaster> +ul (ehird, it may not always be the best with BSD, but it is often very good iirc. I don't remember the details about which one BSD 3-clause is exactly.)S
23:33:23 <thutubot> ehird, it may not always be the best with BSD, but it is often very good iirc. I don't remember the details about which one BSD 3-clause is exactly.
23:33:39 <ehird> damnit. you're meant to argue about how gpl3 is way better.
23:33:45 <ehird> stop putting the universe out of balance, you dick.
23:34:11 <ais523> ehird: stop it, trying to read one and a half conversations at once is really confusing
23:34:39 <fizzie> Abandon the universe, abandon the universe, it's gonna tilt out of balance and fall off (but where?).
23:34:49 <AnMaster> +ul (ehird you are right, I should stop agreeing with you, but it is hard when you are being right for once :P)S
23:34:50 <thutubot> ehird you are right, I should stop agreeing with you, but it is hard when you are being right for once :P
23:35:03 <ehird> ^ul (YOU SUCK DICK)S
23:35:12 <fungot> fizzie: if i go to community college, i do
23:35:13 <ehird> Universal balance restored.
23:35:20 <ehird> he thinks you mean studying language
23:35:24 <fizzie> fungot: That's no excuse.
23:35:25 <fungot> fizzie: nah. i'm not sure.
23:35:29 <AnMaster> +ul (Factually incorrect actually. But I know someone who does if you are interested.)S
23:35:29 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
23:35:29 <thutubot> Factually incorrect actually. But I know someone who does if you are interested.
23:35:41 <fungot> ais523: this error means that the libraries themselves are pattern templates specifying what operands these operators is to write a library suitable for use with ascii-7, and so are not always right to left, or at least, that is expressions which have a 16-bit result; c-intercal relaxes this rule slightly and only if your input is being created. typical syntax for a bug ( either the line label is encountered ( in a multithreade
23:35:43 <ehird> ^ul (psygnisfive?)S
23:35:49 <ehird> Hey fuck you fungot
23:35:49 <fungot> ehird: otherwise, the funge program or a mixture of the statement is self-abstaining or self-reinstating ( this is a name clash between any two functions, the code at all.
23:35:53 <ehird> ^ul (psygnisfive?)S
23:36:08 <ehird> psygnisfive: nuttin'
23:36:56 <ais523> debating the merits of gcc --combine
23:37:05 <AnMaster> ais523, right. so combine wouldn't work even when just building one part of it?
23:37:05 <ais523> and whether C-INTERCAL was sufficiently crazy to defeat it
23:37:16 <ais523> it would have to recompile all the object files multiple times I think
23:37:20 <ais523> it would work for oil but that's only one file
23:37:31 <ais523> and that wouldn't fit in the makefile
23:37:49 <ais523> not to mention, you're forgetting the code ick's output generates
23:37:55 <AnMaster> ais523, well no -combine doesn't work at all with any make system I forgot
23:38:16 <AnMaster> don't read and write at the same time at 00:38
23:38:40 <ais523> DO :1 <- #38 DO PIN :1
23:38:46 <AnMaster> ais523, will you be here tomorrow?
23:38:57 <ais523> time for me to leave as well I reckon
23:39:00 <AnMaster> ais523, ok what was that DO PIN?
23:39:04 <ais523> AnMaster: PIC-INTERCAL
23:39:13 <ais523> it's a command to read and write at the same time
23:39:14 <AnMaster> and how was it related to anything above?
23:39:33 <AnMaster> ais523, how can you read and write a pin at the same time?
23:39:41 <ais523> it affects 16 pins at once
23:39:50 <ais523> some of which are read and some of which are written
23:39:56 <ais523> and actually, changing to input mode is a sort of writing
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23:40:07 <ais523> because you can detect externally that an output is in input mode
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23:43:10 <AnMaster> ais523, what is /*@partial@*/ ?
23:43:32 <ais523> AnMaster: it means it's both an input and an output
23:43:39 <ais523> basically the struct there has various fields
23:43:46 <ais523> some of which hold useful values when it's called
23:43:55 <ais523> and others of which gain useful values when it returns
23:44:39 <ais523> in that case it means something slightly different
23:44:42 <ais523> I just have to figure out what
23:45:04 <AnMaster> ais523, also where are these documented?
23:45:17 <ais523> but don't try to understand it while tired or drunk
23:46:06 <AnMaster> I never ever drunk any alcohol in my life
23:46:18 <AnMaster> nor do I ever want to drink a drug
23:46:23 <ais523> I have drunk alcohol in my life, but not for the past 3 years or so
23:46:45 <ais523> time to go home anyway, bye everyone
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00:29:50 <MizardX> ehird: I think I managed to make functions in JumpFuck. http://pastie.org/317387
00:30:34 <ehird> wow, that looks really neat
00:31:04 <ehird> i think it'd actuallly be very easy to convert that to normal BF; you're doing most of the continuationy stuff yourself
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00:34:32 <MizardX> either lyrics, or "sångtext(er)"...
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00:40:12 <GregorR> That looks like it sounds like "song text"
00:44:18 <ehird> I have a very nice picture of a lighthouse.
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00:48:26 <ehird> No. My mother would not enjoy a picture of a lighthouse.
00:49:29 <ehird> GregorR: Would you?
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05:27:18 <GregorR> http://home.codu.org/5ctj/
05:28:28 <oerjan> hm Catholic bishop - shouldn't be too hard
05:29:29 <oerjan> actually i forgot to check if there was a 1 click
05:31:51 <oerjan> "St. Ignatius Mission"?
05:31:57 <oerjan> it's not even trying :D
05:33:29 <oerjan> oops this one looks harder
05:37:23 <GregorR> No, but I just broke it again X-P
05:37:35 <GregorR> Sorry, I'm trying to add logic so it won't allow you to fake links.
05:38:26 * GregorR starts modifying it in a new file :P
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05:40:48 <GregorR> OK, now I'm going to replace it and you will have to restart if you're in the middle of a game.
05:41:57 <GregorR> psygnisfive: http://home.codu.org/5ctj/
05:42:41 <GregorR> psygnisfive: Five clicks to Jesus. Find Jesus ... in five clicks or less :P
05:42:53 <oerjan> and i had just found "Christianity" :(
05:43:16 <GregorR> psygnisfive: It gives you a random Wikipedia page, and you try to get to Jesus in five clicks or less.
05:45:14 <oerjan> oh it fixed when i went back in history
05:45:50 <GregorR> So far I haven't found a single page that I can't make it in five, so it may be worthwhile to reduce the limit to four, maybe even three.
05:46:03 <GregorR> (Five is just the way I'd heard the game formalized)
05:51:55 <GregorR> Now I need to make a database so it can compare your result to others.
05:51:55 <oerjan> not necessarily, let me jump straight USA
05:53:44 <oerjan> and from there to Roman Catholicism which i've used before
05:54:22 <oerjan> it was not the global one, but Roman Catholicism in the United States
05:54:35 <GregorR> Make sure to hover over the links ;)
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05:57:39 <GregorR> Anything that lets you get to a country is a free three-clicker.
05:57:57 <oerjan> Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 33554432 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 508361 bytes) in /home/gregor/5ctj/index.php on line 98
05:58:05 <GregorR> Country -> Christianity -> Jesus
05:58:40 <GregorR> Does it happen consistently?
05:59:01 <oerjan> let me go back in history
05:59:17 <GregorR> Don't go that far back X-P
05:59:24 <GregorR> It keeps your session on the server to dissuade cheating :P
05:59:40 <oerjan> but it's worked before, but then i may have gone to the bottom link
05:59:59 <GregorR> Hrm, shouldn't work at all >_>
06:00:37 <oerjan> ok let me try that country method again
06:01:46 <oerjan> liar! Croatia doesn't contain Christianity
06:02:03 <oerjan> although surely it's roman catholic, hm
06:02:34 <GregorR> OK, MOST countries work that way X-P
06:03:49 <oerjan> the article has no religion section :D
06:03:54 <GregorR> You'd think the page "Church of England" would mention Jesus somewhere.
06:05:49 <oerjan> oh well i'll go on to hungary
06:07:21 <oerjan> a nice country with a link to Christianity
06:15:48 <oerjan> Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 33554432 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 516520 bytes) in /home/gregor/5ctj/index.php on line 103
06:18:45 <oerjan> apparently London works as a country :)
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07:24:44 <fizzie> "Congratulations! You found Jesus in 3 clicks!"
07:24:47 <fizzie> Just to be contrary, I went France -> Judaism -> Jesus instead of Christianity in the middle.
07:30:34 <fizzie> Going through Main Page feels a bit cheatery.
07:31:57 <fizzie> As does using http://www.netsoc.tcd.ie/~mu/wiki/, obviously, even though it gives interesting routes. "Kyle & Jackie O -> Musical ensemble -> The Beatles -> Jesus" instead of going through a country.
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07:39:55 <oklopol> Congratulations! You found Jesus in 3 clicks!
07:43:42 <olsner> then, why all the happy!?
07:44:37 <oklopol> fizzie: the real problem with utu is not the course descriptions, but the fact exams simply never get graded; i had an exam 13.10., sent an e-mail to the lecturer too, no answer
07:44:47 <oklopol> olsner: well all the jesus!
07:46:15 <oklopol> that's the worst i've had sofar, but that's probably only because that was the first exam i took :P
07:46:39 <fizzie> oklopol: Officially we have a rule that all our exams get graded within a month of submitting; usually that means it always takes almost exactly a month to get results. Sometimes it's longer, though.
07:46:52 <oklopol> our official rule is two weeks.
07:47:10 <oklopol> well guess it's not that bad then.
07:47:14 <oklopol> it's fucking annoying though.
07:47:31 <fizzie> Sometimes I've gotten results the same day the exam was; there's a large variance.
07:47:41 <fizzie> "Congratulations! You found Jesus in 2 clicks!" That was fast!
07:48:01 <fizzie> 323 BC -> Alexander the Great -> Jesus.
07:48:10 <fizzie> I got a good starting point that time.
07:48:34 <olsner> did you know, if you read to the end of the book of mormon, you will see god?
07:49:30 <oklopol> olsner: now if only the religious people told stuff we could actually check
07:49:37 <oklopol> would be easier to tell who's right
07:49:51 <oklopol> but noooo, you'd have to read something
07:51:05 <olsner> "95% of the test subjects reported experiencing auditory and visual hallucinations after completion of the text"
07:52:06 <Corun> Are you trying to get to jesus from random wiki articles?
07:53:34 <oklopol> well rather well-known game he implemented i think
07:54:26 <oklopol> because my backlog is only a page long.
07:54:45 <Corun> Oh don't you just LOVE terminals?
07:54:48 <fizzie> http://home.codu.org/5ctj/
07:56:43 <oklopol> it's not a terminal, it's mirc.
07:57:14 <oklopol> it just decided, one day, that the backlog needs to be short because i wasn't using the handy "logviewer" functionality enough.
07:57:30 <Corun> Sigh, I'm failin' at this
07:57:36 <oklopol> god that's retarded, wish it was physical so i could punch it.
07:59:11 <Corun> Thai_Braille -> Thai_Language (THE ONLY LINK ON THE BRAILLE PAGE :/) -> English Language -> Republic of Ireland -> Roman Catholic -> Jesus
07:59:32 <Corun> I expected/hoped for a jesus link on both the eng lang page AND the rep ire page, oh wells.
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08:01:05 <Corun> List of Child Prodigies -> Akiane_Kramarik -> Christian_God -> Jesus
08:01:49 <lament> Thai Language->Buddhism->Christianity->Jesus
08:01:59 <Corun> Yeah, I considered that
08:02:18 <lament> dude, of course buddhism is more likely than english language
08:02:30 <lament> why would you expect jesus on the english language page
08:02:46 <fizzie> lament: Because Jesus invented the English language!
08:03:48 <fizzie> Yes; it's clearly in English, and clearly also exactly what he said.
08:04:13 <Corun> I was expecting: History of English Language, something about, I dunno, how it relates to christianity in some way. I guess it's not likely to have Jesus in it :-P
08:04:23 <Corun> I know it doesn't relate :-P
08:04:31 <Corun> But wikipedia pages have _a lot_ of shiz on them
08:05:06 <Corun> I figured English Language was bound to have a link to christianity some where, if it didn't have jesus
08:05:40 <Corun> Doesn't help that I'm not used to playing lowest number of links
08:06:44 <fizzie> Back in March 2008, you could've gone "English Language -> Beowulf -> Jesus", but that link doesn't seem to be there anymore.
08:06:46 <Corun> We used to play the wikipedia game at school (find a random destination article (not allowed to be a stub) and both start from the same article and first to get to the other article without using catagories wins)
08:08:02 <Corun> Doing it by time makes it more frantic :-D
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11:42:28 <MizardX> heh, breaks on invalid input
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11:48:22 <fizzie> Usually thutubot's error messages are better than fungot's, though; it even says which instruction stack-underflowed. (Though I could add that one too.)
11:48:23 <fungot> fizzie: appendix a character to the debugger needs to have the same identifiers as the two characters have the extension `.i', `:1601' ( note that it can be set up for your operating system you're using it, it had some obvious deficiences ( such as the above example shows, the first line of code might never be executed with e633, so the next character. there isn't a thread; attempting to `go back' as input ( if an expression as
11:48:31 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
11:48:41 <fizzie> That intercal manual style is so verbose.
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11:55:21 <MizardX> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Redivider/Underload_Interpreter :)
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12:37:13 <fizzie> I just realized there are probably people for whom the primary meaning of the word "string" is "a piece of cord" instead of "a sequence of characters". That's strange.
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12:41:47 <Slereah_> Isn't that the original meanin
12:42:53 <fizzie> Sure, but, you know, strings. Strings are made out of characters.
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12:43:34 <ais523_> can't this time, I'm on Mibbit, although I'll see it when I'm back on my laptop
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13:21:50 <ais523_> hmm... that must have been manual
13:22:00 <ais523_> unless you've improved your script somewhat
13:24:41 <ehird> the bouncer, remember?
13:24:43 <ehird> it played back the hi
13:24:46 <ehird> played back the join
13:24:54 <ehird> so my script responded t o it...
13:25:29 <ais523_> would it respond multiple times if I cyclespammed from mibbit while you weren't online?
13:33:15 <ehird> ais523_: do you want a nice picture of a lighthouse that I scaled and cropped?
13:33:32 <ehird> I'm beginning to think that cropped-resized lighthouses are just a thing of the past.
13:33:58 <GregorR> Does this happen to be a gummy lighthouse? :P
13:34:38 <ehird> No. The lighthouse in question is neither phallic nor gelatin-based.
13:35:10 <GregorR> If it's not phallic then it's not a lighthouse.
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13:35:36 <ehird> It's an unphallic lighthouse.
13:36:05 <ehird> Would you like to see this non-phallic lighthouse?
13:38:05 <ehird> GregorR: Welp, here you go. http://xs133.xs.to/xs133/08472/lighthouse157.png
13:38:24 <ehird> I posted the lighthouse two messages up.
13:38:35 <ehird> It is scaled and cropped from http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Crown_Point_Light_House.jpg.
13:38:41 <ehird> Or rather, from http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Crown_Point_Light_House.jpg.
13:38:58 <ais523> ehird: why are you posting pictures of lighthouses?
13:39:12 <ehird> Only various versions of one lighthouse.
13:39:24 <ehird> http://xs133.xs.to/xs133/08472/lighthouse157.png is the main one up for grabs, post-processing.
13:44:23 <ehird> I hope you have enjoyed it.
13:44:34 <ais523> ehird: I'm using w3m as my primary browser atm
13:44:41 <ehird> w3m can display images here.
13:44:44 <ais523> atm meaning over a very short period of time
13:44:54 <ais523> I've been messing around with powertop, you see
13:45:03 <ehird> Perhaps you should use it from the console, like real men.
13:59:10 <AnMaster> ais523, http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/c-intercal/
14:14:10 <ehird> 60-70% CPU usage process of tcl installign texlive. Wonderful.
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14:34:48 <ehird> http://github.com/rails/rails/commit/22af62cf486721ee2e45bb720c42ac2f4121faf4 wat
14:37:12 <fizzie> Well, common lisp also has the functions "first", "second", "third", "fourth", ..., "tenth" for getting elements of a list.
14:39:41 <fizzie> Scheme doesn't, although car, cadr, caddr and cadddr work as first .. fourth.
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15:25:50 <GregorR> ehird: That lighthouse is undeniably phallic.
15:26:08 <ehird> You see phalluses in too many things, GregorR.
15:26:45 <GregorR> The rule is that if it's at least double as long as it is wide, and is either round or has more than five sides, it's phallic.
15:28:27 <GregorR> Furthermore, some friends of mine have determined that all things are one of phallic, mammary or concave.
15:28:43 <GregorR> It's only a matter of determining which :P
15:32:11 * ehird tries to figure out how to keep a website and its apache config file in a single git repo nicely while still not exposing the config file via the site
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16:20:34 <ehird> Suggestions welcome :-P
16:25:23 <Slereah> Could you simulate logic gates with missiles/anti-missiles missiles/ and so on?
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16:48:18 <ais523> yay, the first part of gcc-bf's new build system seems to be working
16:58:34 <AnMaster> ais523, added even more patches
17:26:17 <oklopol> get used to seeing even more of me from now on. i'm never going out again
17:27:05 <fizzie> Oh yes; it is quite windy here too.
17:27:29 <oklopol> walked the way from band training backwards, i just couldn't ride my bike or walk normally.
17:27:50 <oklopol> my head is a bit sensitive
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17:28:25 <fizzie> Oh, again a real storm (>21 m/s) on the sea nearby, and 19 m/s right around here. Not bad.
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17:42:38 <ais523> fizzie: I didn't know you lived near the sea
17:44:59 <fizzie> Helsinki (and Espoo too) is on the coast of the Gulf of Finland. Although my actual apartment is some 5 km from the sea, I guess.
17:45:07 <ais523> btw, my department now has a second Door I think
17:45:23 <ais523> the original one still exists, and even has been working recently
17:45:26 <ais523> but the new one is fun
17:45:29 <fizzie> (Or 2 km if you could that one bay, but...)
17:45:30 <ais523> it got into an infinite loop the other day
17:45:32 <oklopol> i'm less than 5 km away from the sea
17:45:38 <ais523> and ended up opening and closing alternately for several hours
17:45:44 <ais523> until security came and forcibly locked it
17:46:17 <fizzie> Do you think the door is TC?
17:46:44 <fizzie> Maybe you could get a brainfuck interp running by opening and closing it in the right pattern.
17:46:50 <oklopol> well, it has one bit of storage
17:48:43 <ais523> fizzie: I don't believe my department's Doors are TC yet, but suspect it's only a matter of time
17:50:34 <oklopol> perhaps i should take MizardX off ignore
17:50:49 <oklopol> how is that done i wonder :P
17:51:23 <ehird> oklopol: why did you ignore him?
17:51:39 <ehird> he made recursive functions in jumpfuck
17:51:49 <oklopol> yes, but i didn't tell python that, just the nicks.
17:52:14 <oklopol> how do you usually unignore in clients?
17:53:05 <oklopol> and he got them recursive huh? last i heard that was something they *didn't* support yet
17:54:37 <ais523> oklopol: /unignore is the usual command
17:54:38 <MizardX> Just need to keep track of the recursion level, and set the continuation-id accordingly. Each function gets the continuation-id as argument, so just use that plus one.
17:55:21 <oklopol> seems you have to give it the "-r" flag
17:56:24 <oklopol> /unignore i naturally tried, but it doesn't exist
17:56:50 <ehird> it changed its mind
17:56:58 <ehird> was for the episode
17:57:02 <fungot> ehird: to be neutral so i accept differing view points. i want to defend measurements. there is no
17:57:09 <oklopol> can it have changed its mind about the reading?
17:57:15 <ehird> fungot: are you sure?
17:57:16 <fungot> ehird: b. greed and fnord produce the bonds i.e fnord between the karma and our fnord causeway. the scene uses hare coursing as a metaphor and may be fnord to other military units ( normal infantry, rangers, ect.) during the current writers guild strike, but the link kept being removed. small—preceding wikipedia:signaturesunsigned comment added by fnord ( user fnord)
17:57:18 <oklopol> i mean, that's what i wanna do.
17:58:07 <oklopol> should i ignore someone else now?
18:00:05 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider/Underload_Interpreter
18:00:19 <ais523> also warrie isn't here atm
18:00:22 <ehird> redivider looks lovely
18:00:36 <ehird> I'ma write a compiler
18:00:52 <ais523> wait, that looks buggy
18:01:00 <ais523> AFAICT ~ isn't fully implemented
18:01:20 <ehird> ais523: e wasn't told about ^
18:01:25 <ehird> yesterday he listed the commands he thought
18:01:31 <ehird> rest: tail[stack];
18:01:32 <ehird> run(rest)[fst + /.*/] }
18:01:39 <ais523> ehird: I was referring to ~ not working
18:01:45 <ais523> and used ^ to nickping the previous line
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18:02:58 <ehird> oklopol: i helped make its syntax!
18:03:05 <ehird> originally it had a lot of pointless empty ()s and []s
18:03:15 <ehird> I told ihope to remove them and voila, redivider is pretty.
18:04:36 <oklopol> hmm, redivider is a palindrome. i wonder how many times i've realized that...
18:09:34 <MizardX> Regexes as a sub-language. It is the only way match input/substrings.
18:11:27 <oklopol> okay *this* is pretty http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider/Brainfuck_Interpreter
18:13:12 <MizardX> The underload interpreter was much easier to write. It doesn't require implementing any new arithmetic operation.
18:21:21 <ehird> [[\X, where X is an ASCII character mnemonic (NUL through US and DEL)]]
18:21:22 <ehird> fuck you redivider
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18:34:03 <MizardX> Geh, bug in my interpreter then. It uses \n \r etc.
18:36:04 <MizardX> should I still allow the short, well-established form? (\n and \NL)
18:37:04 * ehird got his parser parsing strings
18:37:12 <ehird> it will compile to python
18:37:27 <ehird> <stringguts> consists of ASCII characters other than " and \ as well as escape codes. Escape codes must include \\, representing \; \", representing "; \n, representing the newline character; \0nnn where n is an octal digit, representing the character with code nnn; \0xnn where n is a hexadecimal digit, representing the character with code nn; and \X, where X is an ASCII character mnemonic (NUL through US and DEL). The set of escape codes must be prefix-free a
18:38:19 <ehird> This is a valid redivider program:
18:38:27 <ehird> A program consists of <token>s separated by whitespace
18:38:29 <ehird> <token> ::= <word> | "(" | "," | ")" | ":" | "|" | "+" | "{" | ";" | "}" | "."
18:38:29 <ehird> | <string> | <regex> | "#" anything newline
18:38:36 <ais523> does it mean anything?
18:38:41 <ehird> BUG BUG BUG BUG ALL ONBOARD THE BUG TRAIN
18:38:46 <ehird> SPEC GOT A BUGGY BUG WOOOOOOOOOOO!
18:39:02 <ehird> it makes sense if you interpret it like an idiot
18:39:06 <MizardX> ok, \n is given. How about \r, \f, \t etc?
18:39:30 <ehird> it's undefined so you can
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18:41:01 <ehird> Nothing actually _uses_ <token>
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18:43:16 <ehird> It's almost impossible to parse the regexes
18:43:22 <ehird> as you have to parse all regex escapes too
18:43:37 <ais523> ehird: reminds me of Perl
18:43:57 <ehird> MizardX: how do you do it?
18:44:12 <ehird> you can't parse regexes with regex.
18:44:57 <ehird> does not match /[abc/def/] properly.
18:45:38 <MizardX> No, you need to escape the /
18:46:13 <ehird> iirc, perl disagrees with me.
18:46:36 <ais523> ehird: you need to escape / in [] in Perl m// I think
18:46:47 <ais523> because it finds the end of the regex first
18:46:50 <ais523> then parses its insides
18:48:05 <ehird> i should probably do like MizardX's interp and lex it all first.
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19:01:49 <ehird> (?:(/(?:(?:\\.|[^/])*)/|#[^\n]+|{|\)|}|;|([a-zA-Z]+)|\||,|\+|\(|:|\.|"(?:(?:\\.|[^"])*)")\s*)
19:01:54 <ehird> MizardX: think that'll parse redivider? :D
19:02:04 <ehird> needs ordering ofc
19:02:19 <oklopol> making redevider in redevider?
19:02:27 <ehird> just making lexing easy
19:03:10 <ehird> (?:(([a-zA-Z]+)|[(,):|+{;}.]|"(?:(?:\\.|[^"])*)"|/(?:(?:\\.|[^/])*)/|#[^\n]+)\s*)
19:04:25 <MizardX> <word> ::= {letter or digit}
19:05:02 <ehird> ([a-zA-Z]+|[(,):|+{;}.]|"(?:(?:\\.|[^"])*)"|/(?:(?:\\.|[^/])*)/|#[^\n]+)
19:05:05 <ehird> final version, probably
19:05:07 <ehird> as long as it works
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19:07:43 <ehird> MizardX: I see no _
19:08:25 <MizardX> \w = [^\W] = [A-Za-z0-9_]; [^\W_] = [A-Za-z0-9]
19:08:38 <ehird> very clever & evil
19:14:16 <fizzie> [[:alnum:]] is also very obvious, though a couple of letters longer.
19:14:45 <nooga> i wonder if it's possible to generate a tiny bit of x86 machine code, place it in the char array and then call it as a C function, all in runtime ofc
19:14:54 <nooga> stupid queston, it is possible
19:15:02 <nooga> though i never tried ;|
19:15:05 <fizzie> I do that in jitfunge.
19:15:16 <fizzie> (Although it's a mmap()'d block with PROT_EXEC privileges.)
19:15:29 <fizzie> (A general malloc()d block might not be suitable for executing code.)
19:15:51 <ais523> nooga: it might be placed somewhere marked nonexecutable
19:16:00 <ais523> as an anti-buffer-overflow message
19:16:55 <nooga> can i read some sources with such neat trickz? :>
19:17:21 <fizzie> I have a very preliminary tarball of jitfunge in the web, but that's really not a pleasant thing to read.
19:17:22 <ais523> fizzie: doesn't jitfunge do something like that?
19:18:50 <ehird> nooga: perhaps a quicker response could be gained by using english
19:19:03 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/jitfunge-export.tar.gz if I recall the URL correctly.
19:19:18 <fizzie> That version is somewhat buggy, though.
19:19:38 <fizzie> (That is not to imply that I'd actually *have* a bug-free version; I don't.)
19:20:13 <nooga> ehird: yea, currently i'm fascinated by speech used by 4chan retards
19:21:24 <nooga> fizzie: i just need the runtime execution schema
19:21:46 <ehird> nooga: so you want fizzie to do all the work for you
19:22:22 <fizzie> mmap(..., PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE|PROT_EXEC, ...); -- then just write there, cast it to a function pointer and call it.
19:23:14 <fizzie> It's there in the "AsmFunction" class if you want to look at how jitfunge does it.
19:23:28 <fizzie> Not too tricky, anyway.
19:24:23 <nooga> + i must generate all that stuff that gcc does in functions to seamlessly imitate a 'real' function
19:25:01 <fizzie> Well, sure, you need to know your platform's and compiler's calling conventions.
19:25:31 <nooga> what is that SConstruct file?
19:25:49 <fizzie> It's a scons build file.
19:26:07 <fizzie> (And SCons is a make-replacement.)
19:26:33 <MizardX> Can you declare a function-pointer as __stdcall, __cdecl or __fastcall ?
19:27:21 <fizzie> I assume you could; at least it sounds useful.
19:28:07 <nooga> Assembler class looks nice :>~~~
19:28:34 <fizzie> It's just a x86 code generation tool. Very idiosyncratic, too; probably not too friendly to use.
19:29:56 <fizzie> The put_call methods do only calls to the specific types of function pointers I use, and sp_load/sp_store are about moving the Befunge stack pointer I keep in the ESI register... it's not really very generic. And it only contains those x86 opcodes I've happened to use.
19:31:22 <nooga> but i will need to write something more or less similar
19:31:49 <fizzie> LLVM might be worth thinking about for code generation, too.
19:32:23 <fizzie> I did all that stuff from scratch just for fun.
19:32:24 <oklopol> watching python try out all self-avoiding paths.
19:33:17 <oklopol> all paths on NWSE where the path doesn't intersect itself.
19:33:18 <nooga> oh, didn't knew that LLVM exists
19:37:43 <oklopol> it's a bit unfortunate the little guy will never grow up to be much more than 15 :<
19:38:19 <oklopol> my self-avoiding path wormy, it'll never grow up to be even 15 cells long
19:38:29 <oklopol> because that'd take ages :|
19:38:46 <oklopol> i made it skip every 200th iteration
19:38:59 <oklopol> but that didn't look nearly as cute
19:39:08 <oklopol> also it starts to get stuck then.
19:39:20 <oklopol> because there are, occasionally, big gaps between two self-avoiding paths
19:43:49 <nooga> http://www.hacker.org/hvm/ seen this?
19:44:02 <nooga> a bit lame i'd say
19:44:28 <nooga> i have developed a compiler targeting that
19:44:40 <nooga> though loops are a bit tricky
19:47:56 <nooga> jump instructions must jump over corelated jump instruction + literals of variable length = tricky part
19:48:33 <oklopol> yeah but isn't it enough to push the amount of jumps just before the jump instructions
19:49:00 <oklopol> doesn't sound too hard if you're making a compiler, might be annoying manually, if you were programming directly in the lang
19:49:47 <oklopol> i meant the length of the jump
19:49:58 <fizzie> Since it's obviously not trying to be an especially hard-to-program language, it really could have a "push literal" instruction instead of just 0-9.
19:50:27 <oklopol> it's probably designed to be a trivial to implement langauge.
19:52:42 <nooga> compiling while is like: <beginning><adress of end><!condition test><jump?> <blah blah> <adress of beginning><jump> <end>
19:53:32 <nooga> adress of end must include length of adress of beggining and vice versa
19:54:02 <oklopol> yes, but that's not too hard, you can just pad the computation to be the same length everywhere.
19:54:09 <fizzie> It's still trivial if you're not a perfectionist and can stand a couple of nops here and there when your literals happen to be unexpectedly short.
19:54:14 <nooga> that's what i've done
19:56:41 <fizzie> Do you use something clever to find the shortest way of pushing a particular literal, or just something boring like base-9 numbers with x+9*y+9*z+...?
19:57:05 <nooga> you can call it clever
19:57:20 <nooga> let me refresh my memory and explain
19:57:47 <fizzie> (I'm partially away, so I may not respond with the appropriate "um"s and "oh"s. Hopefully someone else is willing to do that part.)
19:59:48 <ehird> >>> parse(lex('abc(a,b)'))
19:59:48 <ehird> [('decl', 'abc', ['a', 'b'])]
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20:00:47 <nooga> it's an uuuuuuuuuuugly ruby function :D
20:00:52 <nooga> http://rafb.net/p/GlTDVw34.html
20:01:28 <nooga> ruby multiplies strings
20:03:57 <nooga> irb(main):025:0> literal(43629)
20:03:58 <nooga> => "99996*5+*7+*5+*6+"
20:05:09 <fizzie> That looks like a base-9 number to me, really.
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20:06:18 <fizzie> 6*9^4+5*9^3+7*9^2+5*9+6
20:06:24 <fizzie> What else is it than a base-9 number?
20:06:56 <nooga> that cannot beeee.... noooooooo :C
20:07:20 <nooga> but seems to be shorter than normal base 9 notation
20:09:09 <fizzie> You could still write it as "69*5+9*7+9*5+9*6+", which is the base-9 notation (in a stack-based language) that I first thought of.
20:10:09 <fizzie> Obviously no-one would write it as 69999****5999***+799**+59*+6+.
20:11:06 <nooga> 99*29*1++ vs 992+*1+
20:12:25 <nooga> so it's just base 9 in written in a bit more intelligent form
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20:16:00 <fizzie> Anyway, I was just hoping for something that'd give "88*0^*" instead of "9995*5+*5+*1+" to push 4096. Not that I'd probably have bothered either.
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20:18:33 <nooga> it shouldn't be so hard
20:21:14 <nooga> factorize, build a tree, find identical nodes or try to optimize and generate the code
20:21:16 <fizzie> Sure it should. It's pretty close to the Kolmogorov complexity.
20:21:33 <fizzie> Well, I guess it shouldn't be hard to get *something* that might work.
20:21:43 <fizzie> But that sort of thing won't use loops at all.
20:22:22 <nooga> cig break, need to think about my lameness
20:24:14 <fizzie> Let's say you want to push A(4,4) or something; it's quite likely that the shortest way (or at least a good way) to do that is the recursive definition of A, but I wouldn't want to have to write some code that'd grok things like that.
20:24:25 <fizzie> Well, given the size of A(4,4) maybe you don't need to push it often.
20:25:23 <oklopol> yeah it's basically kolmogorov complexity.
20:26:11 <fizzie> That c/$ pair is a bit silly; why does it push the program counter and not the program counter +1?
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20:27:29 <fizzie> Well, maybe it's because $ increments afterwards. Okay, then it makes sense.
20:28:42 <nooga> it's sooo hackerish
20:29:13 <fizzie> Personally I think it's a bit boring; it's like unefunge with SUBR.
20:29:24 <fizzie> And no going backwards, either.
20:29:40 <fizzie> Of course I guess it's not trying to be especially interesting, but still.
20:29:42 <nooga> implementation of && || and < > >= <= == was somewhat entertaining
20:30:27 <nooga> ah, the whole hvm thingy is just a platform for problems like floodfill etc
20:30:37 <fizzie> My implementation of Funge-98's ` (which is basically >) uses no conditional jumps. (Just a conditional set.)
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20:40:12 <nooga> i need to code something at least a bit hacky
20:40:25 <nooga> my skills are getting worse and worse
20:40:37 <ais523> nooga: write an INTERCAL to Malbolge compiler
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20:57:47 <nooga> i'd build a processor from transsistors or sth
21:00:02 <ehird> __main__.RedividerSyntaxError: Around line 1, column 11: Expected rparen, got string
21:07:52 <oerjan> <Slereah> Could you simulate logic gates with missiles/anti-missiles missiles/ and so on?
21:08:12 <oerjan> i have this feeling this would be a once-only simulation
21:11:34 <oerjan> <ais523> and ended up opening and closing alternately for several hours
21:11:56 <ais523> it's an automatic Door
21:12:10 <ais523> and when it closed it triggered the someone's trapped behind the door sensor
21:12:17 <ais523> so it opened again for health and safery reasons
21:12:18 <oerjan> your department sounds like it has a door curse, or a ghost. try an exorcist :D
21:26:19 <oerjan> The set of escape codes must be prefix-free and all other escape codes are undefined. <-- ahem, i see both \SO and \SOH in the python code
21:26:46 <ehird> nd \X, where X is an ASCII character mnemonic (NUL through US and DEL).
21:26:49 <ehird> ITT: We read the specs
21:26:56 <ehird> now, who wants to debug my parser
21:27:17 <oerjan> ehird: the spec is contradicting itself
21:27:52 <oerjan> because the mnemonics are _not_ prefix free. both SO and SOH are mnemonics (assuming MizardX has them right)
21:29:11 <ais523> yep, Shift Out and Start of Header
21:30:56 <oerjan> MizardX: also you forgot DEL one way in http://paste.eso-std.org/v
21:31:03 <ehird> in mine, SOH wouldn't work
21:31:05 <ehird> it'd be SO, then H
21:31:56 <oerjan> which was the point of trying to require prefix freeness in the first place, i assume
21:32:41 <oerjan> MizardX: (in escapes_re)
21:33:37 <ais523> clearly \SOH should have the same effect as . . in HOMESPRING
21:34:53 <ais523> oerjan: it causes a temporal paradox
21:35:03 <ais523> the reason is that dot space is an escape for space
21:35:08 <ais523> space dot is an escape for dot
21:35:50 <ais523> and dot space dot is ambiguous, and instead of addressing this problem the person who specced out HOMESPRING said that conforming implementations had to cause a temporal paradox if this happened, and as a result there are no conforming implementations
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21:36:15 <ehird> write it in twoducks
21:37:28 <MizardX> Added DEL, and switched SO/SOH. It'll get uploaded on next version
21:38:28 <ehird> MizardX: wanna debug my parser? :}
21:39:37 <MizardX> I could look at it... but not right now.
21:40:16 <oerjan> i guess the prefix free part of the spec will just have to be removed
21:41:55 <ehird> remove the stupid mnemonic thing
21:42:36 * oerjan makes it parse greedily
21:49:37 <oerjan> <nooga> i wonder if it's possible to generate a tiny bit of x86 machine code, place it in the char array and then call it as a C function, all in runtime ofc
21:50:56 <oerjan> i recall reading that the ghc haskell compiler uses that for it's ffi interface, and that this gave trouble when trying to use it with a secure linux implementation
21:51:59 <oerjan> because the security includes disallowing self-modifying code
21:53:38 <fizzie> Making stack and heap non-executable is quite common, but I would think at least some systems still allow executing code from memory area that's been explicitly requested for that purpose.
21:54:28 <oerjan> yeah, this was about security-enhanced linux
21:55:04 <fizzie> (About that in SELinux:) "If the program really needs this behavior there is no really easy way out. One possibility is to create an anonymous file (just unlink it after creation), size the file using ftrunctate, and then map the file in two places. In one place map it with MAP_SHARED and write permission but without execution. For the second mapping use execution permissions but no write permissions. This might be a bit confusing at first but can be handled."
21:55:38 <ehird> someone fix my parser
21:57:31 <fizzie> Parsing is a solved problem, as someone famous said.
21:59:05 <lament> solving problems is a solved problem.
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22:14:06 <MizardX> ehird: Give me a link. I'll look at it now.
22:14:20 <ehird> I'll paste the relevant part
22:14:41 <ehird> MizardX: http://paste.eso-std.org/w
22:14:47 <ehird> with some inspiration from yours :)
22:15:24 <ehird> that's just the parser
22:16:14 <MizardX> token.match(code[index:]) == token.match(code,index)
22:16:28 <ehird> i was not aware that existed.
22:18:08 <ehird> MizardX: um, isn't del 127?
22:18:27 <ehird> MizardX: python \n is decimal
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22:19:23 <ehird> ok, parser all done
22:19:26 <ehird> now for the compiler!!
22:19:33 <MizardX> you don't allow whitespace before the first token :P
22:19:56 <ehird> MizardX: that's why you .strip() the input string.
22:20:04 <fizzie> What were you compiling it to?
22:20:08 <ehird> i could put that in parse :P
22:20:13 <ehird> fizzie: python first, then c if that goes well
22:20:37 <ehird> oerjan: pun alert!
22:25:38 <oerjan> YOU KNOW I HATE PUNS ----###
22:26:38 <MizardX> ehird: "A name without the list of parameters denotes the variable if it is in scope, the parser otherwise.". You threat all names without parens as variables.
22:26:39 <oerjan> CRUSH THEM LIKE FLIES, I SAY
22:27:00 <ehird> MizardX: that's handled by the runtime.
22:27:06 <ehird> (the variable will override the parser)
22:27:16 <ehird> and calling will be done in a way specialcasing that
22:27:35 <ehird> i hope i dont have to do scope analysis at compile time
22:28:16 <MizardX> variable names are static, so they will always only refer to the previous declaration.
22:28:26 <ehird> still means i have to do analysis
22:32:27 <MizardX> Well... I didn't spot any other bugs. Good job so far.
22:33:33 * ehird makes all regex's precompiled in the output
22:36:36 <MizardX> Precompiled regex'es in python?
22:37:55 <fizzie> I assume that means "will be compiled when the Python script starts", not "precompiled" in the most strictestest sense.
22:41:10 <ehird> it returns the result of b, right?
22:41:19 <ehird> i.e. when giving it stuff, it throws the result of that fed through a away
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22:42:41 <ais523> I think it's them concatenated, based on the Underload interp MizardX pasted
22:42:55 <ehird> Can't parsers return things other than strings?
22:43:57 <MizardX> The plus sign denotes concatenation. First, the input string is fed into the left parser. If it succeeds, then the new input string is fed into the right parser. If it succeeds, the concatenation also succeeds, returning the string concatenation of the two result strings as the result and the input string of the right parser as the new input string.
22:44:29 <MizardX> They can only return strings. Though they can also both soft and hard fail.
22:44:35 <ehird> Soft/hard fail is confusing, yeah.
22:44:43 <ehird> I'm representing it as two seperate python exceptions, is that right?
22:44:55 <MizardX> Soft fail is like a null result. Hard fail is like an exception.
22:45:15 <ehird> So a parser returning "" soft fails?
22:45:33 <fizzie> "" sounds like succeeding to me.
22:45:40 <fizzie> It's just an empty string.
22:45:54 <ehird> [[soft fail is like a null result]]
22:46:01 <fizzie> But "" is not like a null result.
22:46:08 <MizardX> A soft fail in the middle of a block, argument list or concatenation results in a hard fail.
22:46:22 <ehird> MizardX: does this parser soft fail:
22:46:39 <MizardX> succeeds with an empty string result.
22:46:42 <ehird> im just finding it hard to distinguish between hard/soft failing
22:47:25 <MizardX> Soft fails becomes important for alternations. A soft fail for the left child results in that the right child gets parsed instead.
22:47:40 <ehird> why not just a regular fail?
22:47:44 <ehird> fail for left child -> right child
22:48:20 <MizardX> Strings always succeeds. Regexes can either succeed or soft fail.
22:48:29 <ehird> why not just have one type of fail
22:49:09 <ehird> What's the problem with no hard fail?
22:49:31 <fizzie> My guess is that you might want to have a "this failed completely, don't even try to continue messing around" type of failure.
22:49:45 <MizardX> I guess it so it could potentionally be run on input with no back-tracking capabilities.
22:51:42 <ehird> + and | are... whatever the word is for not mattering about left/rightness, right?
22:51:48 <ehird> (a + b) + c == a + (b + c)
22:51:53 <ehird> and (a | b) | c == a | (b | c)
22:52:26 <ehird> MizardX: except... if the first hard/soft fails
22:52:28 <ehird> it fails the same way
22:52:30 <ehird> but if the second does
22:52:40 <ehird> so, it matters what exactly the escond is
22:52:51 <ehird> so they aren't, are they?
22:53:03 <ehird> it's a + (b + c) in the spec, anyway
22:53:28 <MizardX> if b or c soft fails in either case, the whole expression hard fails.
22:55:28 <MizardX> Soft fail no the last branch on the alternation on the other hand, only causes the whole expression to soft fail.
22:55:54 * ehird has to structure, oops.
22:56:04 <ehird> can't do a + b without each subparser being a seperate function
22:56:09 <ehird> so i need to do that for a | b too
23:00:45 <oklopol> i think i should have some breakfast.
23:00:52 <oklopol> since it's tomorrow already
23:01:40 <oklopol> is it? what's weird about eating
23:09:11 <MizardX> I'll go to sleep now. Need to get up in a few hours. :S
23:10:43 <MizardX> ehird: One problem for you; How to check if two strings are equal in Redivider, without hard-failing.
23:11:04 <ehird> MizardX: is that even possible
23:11:38 <ehird> MizardX: got it, i think:
23:13:55 <ais523> yay, gcc-bf's build system works
23:14:04 <ais523> at least for an initial compile
23:14:08 <ais523> next step: make it work as a Makefile
23:23:16 <fizzie> Hum, if you've got a string in variable 'a' and another in variable 'b', and you want to test for their equality, and you happen to know X's not in the string, can't you just do /([^X]*)X\1/ a + "X" + b ?
23:23:24 <fizzie> Not quite generic, of course.
23:25:56 <fizzie> Uh, meaning /([^X]*)X\1/ [ a + "X" + b ] there, of course. For some reason read the "parser_1 [ parser_2 ]" without the brackets.
23:26:13 <fizzie> I've never done anything with that language.
23:26:31 <MizardX> if the regular expression fails, then re[...] will hard fail
23:26:45 <pikhq> heheheh... Nice work, ais523.
23:26:57 <ehird> MizardX: btw, i think i have an idea for the comparer
23:27:26 <GregorR> I have an idea: Call it the "comparator" :P
23:28:30 <ehird> equal(a, b): { /$/[a]; /$/[b]; "equal" } | { /$/[a]; "not equal" } | { /$/[b]; "not equal" } | { ha: head[a]; hb: head[b]; equal(ha, hb); equal(tail[a], tail[b]) }.
23:28:35 <ehird> needs the one-character case, but still
23:29:14 <MizardX> /regex/[input] will hard fail if the regex soft-fails
23:29:37 <fizzie> Causing the whole | to hard-fail. That's one tricky language.
23:30:37 <MizardX> one way would be {/regex/; body}[input]
23:31:22 <MizardX> as long as body doesn't fail
23:31:53 <MizardX> or ({/regex/;body}|alt)[input]
23:32:04 <fizzie> How would that work? Won't the block instantly hard-fail if the regex fails?
23:32:33 <fizzie> "If the first parser soft fails, the block soft fails. If any other parser fails, or the first parser hard fails, then the block hard fails."
23:32:57 <fizzie> The regex will only soft-fail there.
23:35:47 <ehird> anyone who knows about prolog:
23:35:55 <ehird> is it possible for a predicate to cause a new statement (axiom, whatever?)
23:36:00 <ehird> pred(X) :- condition
23:36:02 <ehird> can another predicate
23:36:12 <ehird> so that even if the condition it was stated on becomes false, the axiom remains?
23:36:50 <ehird> oerjan: so I can do
23:36:57 <ehird> makeFoo(X) :- assert(foo(X))
23:37:22 <ehird> | ?- assert(foo('hi')).
23:37:22 <ehird> uncaught exception: error(existence_error(procedure,assert/1),top_level/0)
23:37:54 <oerjan> oh right there are some technicals
23:37:55 <fizzie> You can also retract/1 things.
23:38:07 <ehird> my game of prolog in nomic shall pwnz0r!!11
23:38:11 <oerjan> you may need to declare foo first in some implementations
23:38:30 <ehird> if i want no defaulted predicates...
23:38:32 <nooga> did someone ever implemented something like esoteric prolog?
23:38:42 <ehird> nooga: no, btu ais523 designed Proud or was it Pound
23:38:44 <ehird> which is uncomputable
23:38:45 <oerjan> i don't quite recall how
23:40:02 <ehird> foo(X) :- not(bar(X)), assert(...)
23:40:03 <fizzie> I've done a Scheme interpreter in Prolog; it felt a tiny bit esoteric-y, even if both involved languages are so mainstream. It's not "esoteric prolog" in the sense you meant, though.
23:40:07 <ehird> youre not meant to use not in prolog are you?
23:40:16 <ehird> you're meant to use cut aren't you
23:41:40 <fizzie> Maybe you could just foo(X) :- bar(X), !, fail. foo(X) :- assert(...). or something, but I'm not sure if that's any nicer. Not a Prologer, though.
23:41:57 <oerjan> ehird: ah you declare it with dynamic
23:42:21 <oerjan> http://gollem.science.uva.nl/SWI-Prolog/Manual/dynamic.html
23:42:52 <ehird> register(email, name) :- not(player(email, N)), assert(player(email, name)).
23:43:20 <ehird> No permission to modify static_procedure `(dynamic)/1'
23:43:24 <oerjan> ehird: dynamic player/2, actually
23:43:41 <ehird> ERROR: (/Users/ehird/Documents/Code/nomic.pl:1):
23:43:41 <ehird> No permission to modify static_procedure `(dynamic)/1'
23:44:20 <ehird> needs to be Email, Name
23:44:49 <ehird> dynamic no worky :(
23:45:00 <nooga> i saw prolog implementation in ruby that permitted using prolog inline
23:45:17 <nooga> bcs it was coded using ruby's syntax awesomness
23:46:01 <ehird> nooga: yeah, seen it
23:47:25 * ehird wonders if you can dump the state of the prolog world to a file
23:48:56 <oerjan> ehird: you need :- dynamic player/2. see the link above
23:49:30 * ehird tries to remember the if/else syntax in prolog
23:51:55 <ehird> i wonder how you give a reason for failing?
23:51:58 <ehird> there's just fail/0
23:56:44 <oerjan> i'm not sure that makes sense
23:57:07 <ehird> i'll just build it into the infrastructure
23:57:13 <ehird> as in, commands can be replied to
23:57:16 <ehird> so i'll just make it part of the reply
23:58:54 <oerjan> there are exceptions though
23:58:54 <ehird> how come the format predicate always outputs, isn't there a way to get it to put the output in an atom?
23:59:42 <ehird> format(atom(Foo), ...)
00:02:42 <ehird> http://pastie.org/318300
00:02:50 <ehird> although i need a result_of in the final one, whatever
00:03:03 <ehird> that needs to be an assert, for the result_of, doesn't it?
00:03:07 <ehird> or maybe a side-effect
00:03:29 <ehird> http://pastie.org/318301
00:07:24 <oerjan> +ul (o )(~(o)~*:S~:^):^
00:07:25 <thutubot> oo ooo oooo ooooo oooooo ooooooo oooooooo ooooooooo oooooooooo ooooooooooo oooooooooooo ooooooooooooo oooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooo ...too much output!
00:12:16 <oerjan> +ul (o )(~(ok)~*:S~:^):^
00:12:17 <thutubot> oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
00:16:12 <nooga> where is help tor thutubot ?
00:16:40 <ehird> its written in thutu
00:16:43 <ehird> (look it up on the wiki)
00:18:48 <ehird> Maybe I should write my own prolog for this.
00:18:59 <ehird> fizzie: oerjan: Probably the best, isn't it, considering the sandboxing I'd have to do otherwise
00:28:16 <fizzie> fungot's got a ^help, though.
00:28:17 <fungot> fizzie: http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ fnord ( user fnord) 13:12, 15 march 2007 ( utc)
00:28:18 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
00:34:06 <nooga> what langs does it support?
00:34:34 <fizzie> Brainfuck and Underload; that's the bf/ul there.
00:34:44 <nooga> i remember that there was another bot
00:35:08 <fizzie> There's also an undocumented ^code command that runs non-sandboxed Befunge, but that's limited to me only since it's so unsafe.
00:35:10 <nooga> that supported even my poor SADOL
00:35:30 <fizzie> fungot's written in Funge-98, in case that wasn't mentioned yet.
00:35:31 <fungot> fizzie: if there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale.
00:35:56 <fizzie> It's also very obsessed about fair use when it's using this current babble-database.
00:35:59 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp*
00:36:25 <oerjan> Egobot, how we miss thee
00:37:07 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
00:37:17 <fizzie> [2008-04-26 01:15:37] < EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
00:37:22 <fizzie> The list was indeed impressive.
00:37:38 <fizzie> Now you can talk to fungot, and it'll respond with mangled Discworld stuff.
00:37:39 <fungot> fizzie: " i think someone trod on my hat."
00:37:56 <fizzie> fungot: You don't have a hat.
00:37:56 <fungot> fizzie: ' interesting point," said rincewind. ' i'm missing meals here, you see? the universe doesn't stop even for my clock,' said bucket.
00:38:19 <ehird> trippy, i can't tell if that was a real quote or not
00:38:39 <nooga> fungot: Where is my egg?
00:38:40 <fungot> nooga: it was her mouth. it looked like a witch dancing through raindrops, never getting wet. wait until morning.' the valkyrie turned in the saddle.
00:38:59 <fizzie> This one might not be one of the best ones.
00:39:28 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
00:40:06 <fizzie> "agora" is Agora rules; "alice" is Lewis Carroll's books; "darwin" is Darwin's writings with messed-up tokenization; "discworld" you've seen; "europarl" is European Parliament speeches 1996-2006; "ff7" is Final Fantasy VII script; "fisher" is transcribed telephone conversations; ...
00:40:20 <nooga> fungot: I can see something over there.
00:40:21 <fungot> nooga: serve as the eyes of the falling dreamer. there were
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00:41:09 <fizzie> "ic" is the INTERCAL manual; "irc" is #esoteric + #scheme IRC logs (probably the most sensiblest one); "lovecraft" is this one; "pa" is Penny Arcade comics; "speeches" is just some speeches from Project Gutenberg; "ss" is Shakespeare; "wp" is 1/256th of Wikipedia talk pages.
00:43:05 <fizzie> The "darwin" one is only funny because it's filled with :)-smileys, thanks to a bug. (Fungot's hardcoded punctuation stuff -- the very visible triangle in http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt -- doesn't match with what was used when building the data files.)
00:43:05 <fungot> fizzie: at some of the things. in the second place, his organic processes shewed a certain queerness of proportion which fnord utterly to shame the emotional fnord and fnord.
00:43:49 <fizzie> fungot: Stop talking about "organic processes" like you don't have those. Wait, I guess you don't, at that.
00:43:50 <fungot> fizzie: as a mining engineer of considerable prominence. enclosed were some very curious mediaeval information. he seemed, in fine, to have picked up a sight o' fnord in the
00:48:20 <fizzie> I think it's sleep-time; almost 03 am, finally got MATLAB to plot those figures the way I wanted them so it's a good point to sleep. Night.
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01:02:03 <ehird> its written in befunge
01:03:27 <nooga> i'm thinking about an algorithm that will place graph nodes on a square lattice so that the summary length of edges would be the smallest
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09:19:56 <oklopol> i just woke up, and now i have to break my holy never-go-out-again principle already :<
09:20:56 <ais523> why do you have to do out? school?
09:21:18 <oklopol> yes, i need to go show em i've done my c++.
09:21:50 <oklopol> also i need to go take the dog out.
09:23:13 <oklopol> she's getting a bit frustrated, i think, trying to eat my fingers as i type.
09:25:51 <oklopol> also i probably need to go to the shop, all i have here is noodles, and that's really all i've eaten all week
09:26:05 <oklopol> of course that's only two days, but i ate them last week too
09:26:11 <ais523> go outside, it's a good day for it over in the UK
09:26:30 <ais523> therefore by unsafe and overconfident extrapolation I assume it is where you live too
09:26:33 <oklopol> well i wouldn't know, the curtains are closed
09:27:30 <oklopol> last night it was so windy i couldn't ride my bike at all, had to walk home backwards, also rainy but i don't mind that. if you didn't see my complaints yesterday
09:28:11 <oklopol> by extrapolation on that, it's not that nice a day outside.
09:28:13 <ais523> "had to walk home backwards"?
09:28:40 <oklopol> yes, i had my guitar on my back, so the wind couldn't get to my head.
09:29:20 <ais523> I like to have natural light even when I'm indoors programming, it saves on electricity
09:29:29 <ais523> and I like to look out of the windows from time to time too
09:30:00 <oklopol> walking backwards with a bicycle is pretty hard btw. somehow my bike balancing reflexes just don't cover that.
09:30:16 <oklopol> probably because they're backwards, but anyway.
09:31:08 <oklopol> i don't like natural light usually. i like the occasional day out in the summer, but usually i like sitting in the dark
09:32:09 <oklopol> also the topic is hilarious!
09:32:54 <oklopol> seems i'm too tired to leave my computer.
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09:38:07 <ais523> GreaseMonkey: pretty appropriate quit msg by the way, that must have been deliberate...
09:40:28 <oklopol> i love noodles, but my stomach can't stomach it if i don't eat anything else with them.
09:41:07 <nooga> i usually eat in KFC or gas stations (those awful hot-dogs) + cola :D
09:41:29 <nooga> or in work - pizza or chinese shit
09:41:43 <oklopol> i wish i had the money only to eat fast food
09:41:57 <oklopol> slow food is simply inferior.
09:42:11 <nooga> nope, i'm proud owner of 30 years old Mercedes-Benz
09:42:17 <ais523> fast food as in junk food, or as in preprepared meals you get in a shop?
09:42:26 <nooga> and i just sit in that car and drive around for fun
09:42:37 <oklopol> ais523: preferably junk food
09:42:40 <ais523> I mostly eat preprepared sandwitches from the various canteens here
09:42:50 <oklopol> but preprepared meals are often good too
09:43:12 <nooga> i'm just too lazy to prepare something from scratch
09:43:38 <oklopol> for most my senses, i have a limit for how good stimuli can get, for food the limit is pretty low, most things taste equally unbelievably awesome.
09:44:54 <nooga> yesterday i ate a sandwich from subway and smoked a pack of cigs ;]
09:44:59 <nooga> that must be healthy
09:45:34 <ais523> hmm... I avoid all sorts of unhealthy things just because I don't like them
09:45:50 <ais523> I don't smoke, I haven't drunk alcohol for about 4 years or drunk caffeine for about 3
09:45:57 <ais523> and eat lots of vegetables and salads
09:46:03 <ais523> just due to my preferences about things I like
09:47:29 <nooga> i smoke, eat junk and drive my car around, killing atmosphere
09:49:10 <ais523> nooga: have you ever heard of hypermiling?
09:49:28 <ais523> it's catching on quite a lit
09:49:42 <ais523> basically it's a competition to see how fuel-efficiently you can drive a car
09:50:00 <ais523> your score is the ratio of how fuel-efficient it is when you drive it to how fuel-efficient it is in the spec
09:50:27 <AnMaster> and yes I'm online, a bit preoccupied
09:51:58 <nooga> my car is 30 years old, has enormous (as for european car) engine capacity and weights sth about 2000 kilo
09:52:07 <nooga> + the tires are quite broad
09:58:06 <oklopol> i find "saving the nature" a bit too conservative for my taste, why not ruin it, and see what the future brings along.
09:59:20 <nooga> the car ruins my wallet
09:59:55 <oklopol> same thing applies for the money, why not spend it all, and see what happens
10:00:26 <oklopol> i could probably continue in the university even if i lived on the street.
10:00:30 <nooga> i saw what happens
10:00:40 <oklopol> maybe even better, i couldn't do anything but read in the library.
10:00:45 <oklopol> because i wouldn't have anything.
10:01:02 <nooga> flat owner goes mad for a month
10:01:09 <oklopol> did you live in the woods and hunt your own food
10:01:37 <ais523> nooga: how did you get more money again?
10:02:19 <nooga> next month = salary ;]
10:02:35 <nooga> + some shitty projects
10:02:44 <nooga> and i can smoke, drive, eat and pay for my flat
10:03:06 <oklopol> i have tons of money, i'm scared of using it
10:03:50 <oklopol> yeah right, and take away your awesome drifter life
10:04:28 <oklopol> if i had like a tent and some kinda blanket, i would be the happiest man alive
10:04:44 <oklopol> it's all the social pressure that's keeping my routines up
10:05:14 <oklopol> well i would probably want a computer, so guess i'd need to get moneys for like a cellphone.
10:07:41 <nooga> i've met funny guy in netherlands
10:07:57 <nooga> homeless one, in tidy clothes, with watch and everything
10:08:19 <nooga> he was with a huuge dog that looked well fed and happy
10:08:59 <nooga> the guy was speaking quite sophisticated english and claimed that he was a mechanical enginieer
10:10:00 <nooga> he said that he sleeps on a street with dog, under one blanket so even in the winter it's comfortably warm
10:10:21 <nooga> and said that he had to move out because the dog attacked housekeeper
10:10:31 <nooga> and almost killed him ;d
10:12:37 <nooga> i must go there and do something unspecified in some unspecified lab
10:12:37 <oklopol> for me too, should do morning stuffs and leave.
10:12:51 <oklopol> i must go show them 7 c++ exercises and come back.
10:14:00 <oklopol> i would've had like 8 hours of lectures, but i didn't feel like it after yesterday's stormy
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11:04:40 <ehird> #include <stdio.h>
11:04:40 <ehird> printf("%d\n", (int)sizeof(42)["where is your god now?"]);
11:07:31 <oklopol> ehird: that's not portable....
11:07:41 <ehird> oklopol: are you sure?
11:08:35 <oklopol> well it's not portable in that the behavior is not guaranteed in the standard, it might be portable portable
11:09:11 <oklopol> god the topic is hilarious
11:09:22 <ehird> oklopol: o rly, i think you're bullshitting.
11:09:53 <MizardX> Well... strings are pointers to memory, and array indexing is commutative. It's the same as (int)("where is your god now?" + 32) or (int)("where is your god now?" + 16) depending on architecture.
11:10:23 <fizzie> sizeof(42) is usually 2, 4 or 8, not 16 or 32.
11:10:57 <oklopol> both can change from machine to machine
11:11:14 <oklopol> not machine dammit, compilation? my words are gone
11:11:33 <oklopol> well machine, depending what the definition of machine is
11:14:19 <fizzie> Anyway, yes, it's close to (int)*("where is your god now?" + sizeof(42)) -- it's not good to forget the * there.
11:17:47 <fizzie> Oh, actually that's not what it is. That was funky.
11:18:05 <fizzie> It's actually just sizeof(char).
11:18:33 <oklopol> okay then i got owned pretty bad.
11:18:36 <fizzie> Because the syntax goes "sizeof unary-expression" or "sizeof (type-name)", and a cast is unary-expression.
11:19:00 <fizzie> So it's the size of the "where is your god now?"[42] expression.
11:19:32 <oklopol> the cast is outside the sizeof, i don't understand what that has to do with precedence
11:20:17 <fizzie> The cast just converts the size_t result of sizeof into int, I don't think it has much to do there.
11:21:21 <fizzie> Oh, uh, I meant, the [] binds so tight, right.
11:22:30 <oklopol> well okay, this was new to me, that's why you shouldn't learn by doing, only by memorizing the specs can you read actual real life codez.
11:24:31 <oklopol> but, i should reeeeeally start going soon ;)
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12:19:49 <ehird> http://www.ariel.com.au/a/teaching-programming.html
12:19:56 <ehird> puts gets.to_i + gets.to_i
12:20:05 <ehird> s/gets/readline/ if that floats your boat.
12:24:43 <oklopol> the oklotalk way would be "out !In + !In"
12:25:10 <oklopol> i've recently started loving oklotalk's syntax again
12:26:36 <oklopol> unary binds tightest, so "out ( !In + !In"
12:26:41 <ehird> oklopol: you should make oklotalk concatenative
12:27:03 <ehird> oklopol: what is the !
12:27:05 <ehird> and why In vs out?
12:27:21 <oklopol> !Function means call function
12:27:31 <oklopol> out is a function too, but it's lowercase, so it's an actual call
12:27:50 <oklopol> this is an okenity issue in oklotalk terminology
12:28:15 <ehird> oklopol: ah, use/mention distinction?
12:28:22 <ehird> i.e. "the function X" vs "call X with no args"
12:28:41 <ehird> oklopol: there are two nice solutions:
12:28:55 <ehird> 1. make it lazy and have no 0-arg functions, they're just thunks, like haskell. <-- Best option, obviously
12:29:16 <ehird> 2. make it the MENTIONING that requires the exrta char. "in" with no args is clearly more common than passing the function in around
12:29:20 <ehird> make passing the function in &in
12:29:31 <ehird> ==> shorter code, all calling looks the same
12:29:38 <oklopol> passing the function is "In", calling it is "in"
12:29:44 <oklopol> that's how oklotalk rolls.
12:29:52 <ehird> why wouldn't this work
12:30:11 <oklopol> because in, + and in are all funcokens = the "use" case
12:30:25 <oklopol> out ( in( +( in( argument ) ) ) )
12:30:38 <oklopol> argument being the contents of _
12:30:40 <ehird> oklopol: solution for that:
12:30:45 <ehird> when you know the arity of a function, never read more args than it
12:30:52 <ehird> since the system knows that in has no arguments, that can work fine
12:31:01 <oklopol> so, basically i'd have to change parsing at runtime.
12:31:11 <ehird> perl seems to manage fine :p
12:31:22 <ehird> also i'd say runtime syntax is very oko.
12:31:27 <oklopol> anyway, why are you trying to change oklotalk? it's perfect, and your solutions are just copying languages you like.
12:31:33 <ehird> no, i dislike perl.
12:31:38 <ehird> i'm just making suggestions :p
12:32:07 <oklopol> but that's one thing about oklotalk i'm never going to change
12:32:12 <ehird> it would seem that runtime syntax to minimize the code size and to make errors even-more-impossible is very oko.
12:32:34 <oklopol> yeah well, oklotalk did have that originally, but i decided to remove runtime parsing.
12:32:49 <ehird> (errors even more impossible because you cannot give most funcs too many args, simply impossible, and if you give too little args it's a syntax error, not runtime)
12:32:56 <ehird> although oklotalk has syntax errors
12:33:28 <oklopol> oklotalk will never have syntax errors, that's one of the design goals.
12:33:28 <ehird> if "foo" is known to take two args
12:33:36 <ehird> you could make that mean
12:44:19 <oklopol> you can also do "out\+(In\(,)"
12:45:50 <oklopol> which means out( reduce( +, map( in, [(), ()] ) ) )
12:46:58 <ehird> oklopol: does oklotalk have an event-based library?
12:47:02 <ehird> that you can nest events.
12:47:07 <oklopol> can't think of anything much shorter
12:47:28 <ehird> binded_var@event => dowhat
12:47:40 <ehird> x@in=>y@in=>out x+y
12:48:27 <oklopol> no it doesn't have that, although you can just do X=in;Y=in;out(X+Y
12:49:08 <ehird> oklopol: right but, that's not how that'd work
12:49:15 <ehird> it'd just idle until it got input then schedule another listener
12:49:20 <ehird> i.e. you could continue doing crap after saying that
12:49:26 <ehird> and also more advanced event triggers, etc
12:49:40 <ehird> i.e. in isn't a function there
12:49:48 <ehird> it's saying, when the in event is trigered bind the result to x
12:49:52 <ehird> then schedule another trigger
12:49:58 <ehird> then add the two results together when that is triggered
12:50:09 <ehird> e.g. you could have a very simple gui lib that way
12:50:41 <oklopol> can you show me an example, and i can tell you if you can just do it the exact same way?
12:51:05 <ehird> e.g. you can do it for callbacks
12:51:15 <ehird> clicked(button) => out "button clicked"
12:51:24 <ehird> it's just a generic pattern for scheduling events/callbacks
12:51:36 <ehird> nothing complicated
12:51:53 <oklopol> i think you'd start a new thread for that
12:52:08 <oklopol> and then call a blocking function in it
12:52:13 <ehird> nahh, do something like twisted
12:52:18 <ehird> its non-blocking & event-based
12:52:20 <ehird> instead of threads
12:52:22 <ehird> so you can do a lot more
12:52:24 <ehird> without having 1000000 threads
12:52:38 <ehird> http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/ ('s for python)
12:52:46 <ehird> ah, that makes sense
12:52:58 <oklopol> iirc, that's @(X=in),@(Y=in),@(out(X+Y))
12:53:09 <ehird> oklopol: what's the lambda syntax again
12:53:33 <oklopol> i'm not sure @ is the character for threads, but there's a character for threads
12:53:38 <ehird> oklopol: whats the arg syntax again?
12:53:44 <ehird> what's the implicit arg stuff
12:53:48 <ehird> right right but what about
12:54:08 <ehird> @in = {x -> @in = {y -> out (x+y)}}
12:54:13 <ehird> @button(clicked) = {out "hi"}
12:54:21 <oklopol> whoops, that made no sense, but anyway
12:54:27 <ehird> and not actually threads btw,
12:54:31 <ehird> just non-blockingy stuff
12:54:50 <ehird> you just have a mainloop, going through every bit in turn, and run it, nonblockingly
12:55:02 <ehird> = you can have like 1,000,000 of them and it still works
12:55:04 <oklopol> oh, you're going by what the name of "@" might suggest it means?
12:55:19 <ehird> im suggesting what it should mean
12:55:21 <oklopol> but saying that'd be neat?
12:55:36 <ehird> oklopol: it could be useful for your oklotalk os
12:56:00 <ehird> just build everything (keypress,mouse click,move,gui-state-changed (to rerender)) etc as an event
12:57:28 <oklopol> i'm definitely not going to add syntax for events in case events are simply an external thing
12:57:42 <oklopol> so i'd have to somehow incorporate that to the normal message passing syste.
12:58:45 <oklopol> A = @{ @smth = {out "smth given"}; @smthelse = {out "smth else given"} }; A ! §Smthelse
12:59:02 <oklopol> "§" is currently used for atoms, i may change that.
13:00:29 <oklopol> but how about: A = @{ @[§smth, `{out "smth given"}]; @[§smthelse, `{out "smth else given"}] }; A ! §smthelse; A ! §smth; A ! §smthelse
13:00:38 <ehird> bit verbose, but looks pretty
13:00:45 <oklopol> so that you could give the thread a "cue"
13:02:01 <oklopol> patterns are done using the "quote code" list [\ ... ], usually, but for static stuff like an atom or a list you could just as well have the cues without it.
13:03:04 <oklopol> well, that's actually equal to A = @{ §smth -> {out "smth given"}; §smthelse -> {out "smthelse given"}; } :P
13:03:16 <oklopol> only if multiple events could trigger at once would there be a difference
13:03:49 <oklopol> *that* i might be willing to add new syntax for, something like "=>"
13:04:12 <ehird> read up on twisted
13:04:22 <oklopol> oklotalk is proud to have a lot of things that mean almost the same, but you have to know the small details or you'll crash everything.
13:04:30 <ehird> i linked it before.
13:04:34 <ehird> http://www.twistedmatrix.com/
13:04:41 <ehird> its the same kind of event-based system i envisioned for that thing
13:05:33 <oklopol> i don't really feel like reading that.
13:06:30 <oklopol> hmm, yeah i'll do what i said, "=>" will just be a nonblocking "->"
13:07:35 <oklopol> meaning it opens a new thread waiting for the arguments
13:08:22 <ehird> slow, hacky, race conditions, can't have loads at once, ...
13:09:16 <oklopol> yeah and recursion is bad, it uses up the stack, you can get exponential runtime if you make the smallest error ...
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13:09:46 <oklopol> that's conceptually equal to what you described earlier.
13:09:59 <oklopol> it's just i call it thread, you call it something else.
13:10:57 <ais523_> oklopol: they are sometimes, it depends on whether you use fork() or evil_fork()
13:11:08 <oklopol> ais523: yeah but oklotalk always uses the first one
13:12:26 <oklopol> but yeah you're right, if you just open a normal thread for the event, that constantly polls for events or something, then yeah, that's slow and hacky.
13:12:36 <oklopol> but it will just execute the blocking poll
13:12:47 <oklopol> and, with =>, even that doesn't happen
13:13:16 <oklopol> because => just always waits for the input, the function will basically just have a list of "events being waited for", which is then run on input that it is given.
13:14:16 <oklopol> as for race conditions, oklotalk isn't a language where you write stable code, that's simply not what it's aiming for, it's about writing code fast, and in creative ways
13:14:49 <ehird> to get programs working right
13:14:50 <ais523_> does it have a Funge/INTERCAL-like model in which you can predict the speeds threads run at at compile time?
13:14:54 <ehird> soemtimes you need to solve race conditions
13:14:56 <ehird> and that is a lot of code
13:14:59 <ehird> so on the whole...
13:15:57 <oklopol> ehird: i've never encountered a race condition, therefor, i don't believe they're actually a problem unless you're a bad programmer.
13:16:13 <oklopol> i've never had a program that suffered from a race condition
13:16:41 <ehird> presumably, because you havent wrote the kind of problem that runs into them
13:16:43 <ehird> e.g. parallel stuff
13:17:12 <ais523_> sorry for leaving so abruptly earlier
13:17:22 <ais523_> my laptop ran out of battery and did an emergency hibernate
13:17:35 <ais523_> and I was about 30% of the way through uploading gcc-bf, too
13:17:42 <oklopol> ehird: i've written parallel stuff. but anyway, this is a moot point, i already explained to you why race condition arguments don't apply
13:18:01 <oklopol> just happen to think they *never* apply, but we don't have to argue about that now.
13:18:17 <oklopol> we can argue about it later, when i'm all grown up and have written parallel code that doesn't work.
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13:48:05 <nooga> fizzie: i've got a graph in which each node is connected to 3 undirected edges
13:48:15 <nooga> nodes are of 2 types
13:49:00 <nooga> and i want to draw that graph placing vertices on square grid so that sum of edge length will be the smallest
13:49:49 <ais523_> nooga: heh, if I had that problem I would have asked oklopol, probably
13:50:04 <fizzie> It feels like half of the time people ask something it's about graph layouting.
13:50:29 <fizzie> It's not only on this channel; elsewhere, too.
13:50:45 <nooga> i figured out that fizzie is also on #algo
13:50:51 <fizzie> Of course it's probably more like a single-digit percentage, but still.
13:50:54 <nooga> so i thought he might know
13:51:03 <fizzie> What's #algo? I don't think I'm on anything like that.
13:52:00 <fizzie> If I am, it's news to me.
13:52:01 <nooga> so i mixed you two into one supreme being
13:52:02 <oklopol> nooga: so, put them all in the same position, (0,0)
13:52:24 <fizzie> Actually that was my first thought too. :p
13:52:40 <nooga> nodes are transistors of types P and N
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13:53:09 <nooga> and i'm figuring out how to make a compact circuit with shortest cables possible
13:53:37 <ais523_> nooga: do you have mirror-image versions of the transistors
13:53:43 <ais523_> or are b, c, e in a fixed order?
13:53:47 <Slereah> Why, are cables that expensives?
13:53:56 <nooga> cables have resistance
13:53:57 <fizzie> Anyway, Very Busy(tm) now; hopefully the oklopol side of the hypothetical oklozzie complex will help here.
13:54:38 <oklopol> well it's about wires so this is ais523 territory, also i'm not that comfortable with solving intractable problems.
13:55:27 <oklopol> three undirected edges you say, right okay transistors
13:55:44 <ais523_> nooga: don't you need to put in resistors as well as transistors?
13:57:26 <oklopol> can the wires intersect each other? you're not being very specific
13:57:40 <oklopol> can the wires intersect the transistors?
13:58:17 <nooga> transistors will be on one side of the board and connections on the other
13:59:03 <fizzie> You could maybe abuse one of the many IC placement-and-routing tools.
13:59:35 <oklopol> what an ugly practical solution
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14:00:29 <nooga> distance is not a problem
14:00:54 <oklopol> so, we have a set of nodes, and a set of three other nodes for each node specifying three nodes they're connected with, we need to find a placing for each node such that the sum of distances to each of these neighbors for each node are minimal.
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14:01:02 <nooga> problem is how to find the solution in a way a bit more elegant than bruteforce or genetic algo
14:01:46 <oklopol> depends on how good a solution you want
14:02:23 <nooga> node count isn't bigger than 10000
14:04:20 <oklopol> a random scheme that comes to mind
14:05:28 <oklopol> intractable problems are fun
14:06:12 <oklopol> well. one thing you can do
14:06:37 <oklopol> is find connected components for deleting a certain node, for all nodes
14:06:50 <oklopol> basically you find nodes the dropping of which results in multiple graphs
14:07:14 <oklopol> not sure that works well with this kinda thing, i'm not sure what kind the graphs you have are.
14:07:33 <oklopol> anyway i think the components aren't *that*
14:07:48 <oklopol> hmph, aren't that connected, probably there are sets of close nodes that split the network.
14:08:27 <oklopol> that lets you divide and conquer, the merging step is simply finding the two spots on the map to put the submaps in
14:09:04 <oklopol> but i don't know, as i said, a bit stupid trying to find a good strategy with only a slight guess about what the graphs look like
14:11:33 <oklopol> but say you have something like abfbcedb, you could split on b, and then recurse on a, f and ced
14:11:37 <nooga> i could prepare some samples
14:12:18 <oklopol> now, you need not only find a good placing for the subgraphs, you need to get the things b is connected to to be "on the side" of the returned map
14:12:28 <oklopol> because they need to be connected to b in the merging step
14:13:00 <nooga> the graph is quite massive because it's an output from my integrator
14:13:00 <ais523> AnMaster: anyone else who cares: http://code.eso-std.org/gcc-bf/gcc-bf.tar.bz2 is a version of gcc-bf so far which actually compiles
14:13:14 <oklopol> but that's really not very hard, because we can have wires go through anything, it's simple just to mingle the whole subgraphs together.
14:13:24 <oklopol> hmm. i'm really bad at explaining my visions.
14:13:24 <nooga> in which you can define eg OR gate wrom basic P and N elements
14:13:43 <nooga> and then define eg. adder which uses that OR
14:14:02 <ais523> AnMaster: use the wrapper script to run it, and the arg -Wl,-progress,-abi,-asm if you don't want it to just seem to hang for ages and then crash
14:14:05 <oklopol> nooga: yeah i get it; that's why i think something like this might work, you probably don't have that many cycles
14:15:04 <nooga> and everything is compiled into a huge graph with basic P and N elements
14:15:13 <oklopol> (if there's no cycles, then this is a trivial problem)
14:15:44 <oklopol> (because a divide-and-conquer scheme like that will work perfectly)
14:18:39 <nooga> ais523: ported libc?
14:18:52 <ais523> nooga: newlib compiles, sort of
14:19:00 <ais523> it compiles enough to produce a libc
14:19:19 <ais523> the makefile crashes eventually but I can still salvage the libraries it creates
14:20:13 <oklopol> hmm. i want a nice hypertext editor, something like {xxx} which is then a direct link to opening the file xxx in a new tab.
14:20:24 <oklopol> in case it's not open, otherwise just showing the tab
14:21:15 <oklopol> otherwise wordpad is a perfect text editor
14:21:34 <oklopol> (except for the obvious defect of not remembering which font i like)
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14:26:31 <nooga> jedit is quite cool
14:26:43 <ehird> oklopol: Didn't they call that html? :p
14:27:49 <oklopol> err no they didn't call that kinda program html. and i like my syntax better. html is more about markup than about hyperlinks.
14:28:13 <oklopol> hyperlinks wouldn't need that much crap, they'd need one hyperlink contruct for doing hyperlinks.
14:28:27 <ehird> <a href=hello>foo</a>
14:28:34 <ehird> admittedly, thats longer than {hello}
14:28:44 <ehird> oklopol: how about mediawiki?
14:28:53 <fizzie> Gnome's "Tomboy" note-taking thing seemed like a reasonable thing, but never got around starting to use it.
14:29:05 <oklopol> who cares about the syntax, i'm asking about the program
14:30:00 <nooga> i thought about an editor in which you can embed scripts in the text
14:30:22 <nooga> that are collapsable and take some arguments
14:30:35 <nooga> and generate something when you write the file
14:31:18 <nooga> or work as links, keep some data which will be written in specified format etc
14:32:01 <fizzie> Seems like they made a Windows version of that thing, too; http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy/Win32 -- of course, the links there aren't to other files, just other Tomboy notes, so you'd need to keep everything there in order for it to be useful.
14:32:11 <nooga> soo it looks like: some text yadda yadda [script button] yadda yadda
14:32:26 <nooga> and when you click the button you can edit the script or sth
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15:03:42 <nooga> that graph thingy drives me mad
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15:24:11 <nooga> ais523: how to use that gcc-bf thing?
15:26:07 <nooga> got shitloads of errors
15:30:35 <ais523> nooga: errors or warnings?
15:30:40 <ais523> there are a huge number of warnings
15:30:44 <ais523> most of which are in gcc itself
15:32:41 <ais523> I'm not really surprised, I had trouble getting it to compile at my end
15:32:45 <ais523> what was the first error?
15:32:51 <ais523> or the last error if you can't see the first
15:33:39 <nooga> configure: error: /bin/sh ../../gcc-4.2-20070719/fixincludes/../config.sub bf failed
15:33:57 <ais523> did my patches to config.sub apply properly?
15:34:16 <nooga> never compiled gcc
15:34:33 <ais523> nooga: what did you do upon downloading the package?
15:34:43 <ais523> just run the build script?
15:35:02 <ais523> it uses programs nobody has, is the problem, I used realpath in it and possibly you don't have that
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15:36:03 <nooga> and yes, i just run the script
15:36:29 <ais523> grep for bf) in gcc-4.2-20070719/config.sub
15:37:33 <ais523> nooga: it's how you do a switch statement in bash
15:37:39 <ais523> my patch should have added it
15:37:48 <ais523> but the error message suggests that it didn't patch for some reason
15:39:11 <ais523> nooga: if you run patch gcc-4.2-20070719/config.sub < patches/config.sub.patch, what happens?
15:43:02 <nooga> i didn't have patch
15:44:05 <ais523> strange to have realpath but not patch...
15:44:15 <ais523> that's a possibility I hadn't even thought of
15:44:26 <ais523> you probably want to make sure you have gcc's other dependencies too, there are quite a lot
15:47:11 <nooga> never seeen so many errors in one make
15:49:51 <ais523> sorry everyone, connection problems...
15:52:45 <AnMaster> wrote a shell function replacement
15:52:46 <ais523> nooga: it'll have a saner build script in a while
15:53:25 <AnMaster> ais523, at some point you will want to be able to compile gcc-bf with itself
15:53:39 <ais523> I'm not sure that's even possible, but it would be fun to try
15:53:49 <ais523> gcc-bf compiles files very quickly and links them very slowly
15:54:16 <ais523> AnMaster: thought of that too, it's a worrying thought
15:54:21 <ais523> probably we should get qemu for BF first
15:54:25 <ais523> then use that to run Linux
15:54:30 <AnMaster> ais523, no MMU so you would need uclinux
15:54:34 <ais523> although that's cheating really
15:54:56 <AnMaster> since qemu doesn't compile on gcc 4.x
15:54:59 <ais523> AnMaster: hmm... maybe I should try to build uclibc rather than newlib for gcc-bf
15:55:16 <AnMaster> newlib is even more minimal isn't it?
15:55:40 <ais523> I added just enough to clean up all the dangling references
15:56:01 <ais523> newlib can't do everything by itself
15:56:08 <nooga> i think it would be better to write a minimal C compiler that targets bf
15:56:08 <ais523> it needs to know how to do I/O for instance
15:56:11 <AnMaster> would need some low level functions
15:56:27 <ais523> nooga: BF-C exists IIRC, doing it with gcc seems to impress more people though
15:56:40 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and it could handle C99
15:56:57 <ais523> AnMaster: gcc-bf can handle C99, although doesn't have all its standard library
15:57:22 <nooga> i can't imagine that in bf
15:57:27 <AnMaster> RTTI is implemented at quite a high level I believe
15:57:29 <ais523> and there's no reason in theory why it couldn't handle C++, except it would be a pain to get gcc to not try to do clever linker tricks that won't work
15:59:25 <AnMaster> nooga, um prolog isn't an esolang
15:59:31 <ais523> AnMaster: so, neither is C
15:59:55 <ais523> I suppose writing a gplc backend could be interesting
16:00:23 <ais523> the GNU Prolog compiler
16:00:30 <ais523> as opposed to gprolog which is an interpreter
16:00:40 <ais523> amusingly, you can create gprolog by giving gplc a blank file as input
16:00:49 <ais523> apart from the command-line args end up different I think
16:02:34 <nooga> i want that circuit router done :|
16:04:56 <AnMaster> <ais523> amusingly, you can create gprolog by giving gplc a blank file as input <-- um the program generates the other one?
16:05:25 <ais523> AnMaster: gplc is a compiler
16:05:32 <ais523> gprolog's a Prolog interp with a debugger and such
16:05:42 <ais523> if gplc isn't given an initial goal, it links in a small interp so you can run the program
16:05:50 <ais523> and the debugger's linked in unless you tell it not to
16:09:19 <ehird> nice alternative to collabedit: http://etherpad.com/
16:10:23 <nooga> collaborative coding in that way sucks
16:10:52 <ehird> yes, but it's good for other things
16:10:58 <ehird> ais523 & comex have used it extensively before
16:11:05 <ehird> etherpad seems faster.
16:11:34 <nooga> good for what things?
16:11:36 <ais523> gobby works better but it isn't a website and takes about two months to install on Mac OS X
16:11:58 <ehird> nooga: planning scams in Agora, for instance :-P I've used it for that before...
16:12:06 <ehird> ais523: and when it is installed it's awkward to use
16:12:36 <ais523> I thought it was pretty easy to use, actually
16:12:48 <ehird> yes, if it likes your platform it probably is.
16:13:10 <ehird> when it uses about 5 different focus/window-creation mechanisms none of which you are familiar with, when its graphics keep redrawing itself oddly,
16:13:18 <ehird> when it refuses to use a font bigger than like 4px by default...
16:13:24 <ehird> when you can't use any of the common shortcuts in its editor... etc
16:13:34 <ais523> none of that happened to me
16:13:57 <ehird> well, you're lucky, you use X11. (See wut i did thar? I said lucky and x11 in the same sentence. arf arf arf)
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17:01:32 <MizardX> oklopol: You have any link that describes oklotalk? All I can find in the logs is examples.
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17:03:32 <AnMaster> he was talking a second before
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17:05:00 <ais523> ehird's server rebooted
17:05:02 <AnMaster> ais523, server crashed or something I believe
17:05:04 <ais523> and took my bouncer with it
17:05:07 <AnMaster> ais523, yes that is rather strange
17:05:10 <ais523> the fact I'm here must mean the reboot worked
17:05:38 <ais523> not crashed, deliberately rebooted
17:06:51 <oklopol> MizardX: nope. i have a short spec/tutorial about it's simplified sister language oklotalk-- somewhere.
17:07:21 <oklopol> but oklotalk has a few features i haven't even finished yet, even though the language was born mannny years ago
17:09:12 <MizardX> this one? http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/oklotalk--.txt
17:10:19 <oklopol> no that's just an example program
17:10:35 <oklopol> at least it's in the articles somewhere randomly split into n pieces
17:11:47 <oklopol> that's a subset of oklotalk with sexp syntax
17:12:25 <oklopol> because i was to lazy to make an actual parser, and there was a deadline because that was a highschool project
17:12:40 <oklopol> i probably wouldn't have gotten even that implemented without a deadline
17:12:59 <oklopol> i never do, which is why i wish there were esolang courses @ the uni
17:14:47 <oklopol> i'd like it if there was like a mandatory programming project every month. would prevent my slacking, because i'm quite a perfectionist when it comes to school (well university, i didn't give a shit about high school)
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17:17:40 <MizardX> I don't understand this line: (-> [$setcar h] h) ... wouldn't that just return the argument that was passed to it?
17:17:54 <ehird> it has weird scope
17:17:59 <ehird> since you have an h in the "object" containing it
17:18:04 <ehird> the h in that pattern match overrides it
17:18:09 <ehird> then it returns the new car that you provided it
17:18:15 <ehird> so, yes, it returns what you give, but with a side-effect
17:18:20 <oklopol> yeah you should think of it as OO with function syntax.
17:18:29 <oklopol> well dunno about "should", but you can, in that case.
17:20:20 <oklopol> don't ask why you can still have recursion... ;)
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17:22:12 <oklopol> yeah, it's basically just a shorthand
17:22:30 <oklopol> well, also useful with lambdas i guess
17:22:54 <ehird> MizardX: ' = current func
17:23:07 <ehird> so yes it enables easy recursion
17:23:14 <oklopol> indeed, it's not actually "recursion", it's just as well the c++ "this" pointer
17:27:27 <MizardX> { } = lambda, and (-> ) is pattern match?
17:27:57 <ehird> MizardX: {} = thing. it's the object/function thin
17:28:02 <ehird> and (-> ) is the pattern match on the args yeah
17:28:30 <oklopol> (-> pattern expr-to-eval expr-to-eval expr-to-eval...)
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17:30:05 <oklopol> the implementation may have a few features, especially regarding pattern matching, that aren't specced there.
17:30:41 <oklopol> i think i added guards, as a special tuple
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17:40:30 <MizardX> how are strings implemented? list of atoms?
17:42:28 <oklopol> in my interp they were a python string. but a list of atoms would be nicer, or a list of characters.
17:42:54 <oklopol> currently there's nothing in the semantics that separates strings from lists.
17:43:38 <oklopol> except that strings have less functionality
17:43:59 <oklopol> i was simply too lazy to scrap the string implementation and just make them lists.
17:44:07 <oklopol> which would've taken like 10 minutes
17:44:22 <oklopol> MizardX: are you implementing it?
17:44:36 <oklopol> because if you are, you may need further info about the scoping.
17:45:16 <oklopol> well not that complex, but somewhat
17:46:41 <MizardX> oklopol: Well... I was trying to implement a redivider parser in oklotalk... but now that you mention it, it could be fun to implement an interpreter for oklotalk.
17:47:19 <oklopol> parsing would be nicer if i'd implemented cutting and pasting lists... but you can do it already ofc, you just have to add the functionality yourself
17:48:05 <oklopol> i don't think it'd be that hard to implement it, took me about a week of slowly typing it up, but that was mainly because i was making stuff up as i went
17:49:07 <oklopol> i wanted both static and dynamic scoping, and that wasn't all that hard to implement, the problem was i also wanted function parameters to be persistent so you could do something like that setcar thing
17:49:20 <oklopol> unfortunately this meant you had to make a new object if you wanted to recurse.
17:49:38 <oklopol> because otherwise the caller would've destroy its own variables
17:50:23 <oklopol> so there's a runtime monitor on all objects, and an object is copied if it's made a call to from inside itself <<< this is what i didn't want you to ask about, but it's helpful if you want to try implementing
17:54:15 <oklopol> jix: that's okay i like getting pinged
17:54:16 <ais523> did you just ping the whole of #esoteric by mistake, or just me?
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17:54:31 <jix> in my old irc client /ping did ping the server and not the channel ^^
17:54:44 <ais523> and I'm used to getting pinged because I keep losing connection without telling anyone
17:54:46 <oklopol> yeah usually you have to quote it
17:54:55 <ais523> so people talking to me tend to ping me a lot when I stop talking to find out if I'm here
18:00:32 <MizardX> Hmm... an atom is any non-whitespace, non-alphanumeric, non-grouping character followed by non-whitespace, non-grouping? such as %abc ? Or is it just $abc, with a dollar sign?
18:01:53 <MizardX> [^\w\s()[\]{}][^\s()[\]{}]*
18:09:37 <fizzie> Made a Redivider implementation in JavaScript for no real reason:
18:09:38 <fizzie> js> p.expr("1+(2*3)+4")[1]
18:09:45 <fizzie> That's the example program there.
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18:12:47 <fizzie> It doesn't have a web page yet, just works in a JavaScript shell. Maybe I'll make a small page with an input form or something, and then link to it.
18:13:01 <ehird> fizzie: link to the source, he means
18:13:31 <fizzie> Well, soonishly. It doesn't have any usage examples or anything.
18:14:15 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/redivider.js.txt if you just want to see it, but I'll be polishing it up a bit more.
18:14:39 <ehird> fuck you man, that's really short
18:15:09 <fizzie> 714 lines, it's not really that short.
18:15:46 <fizzie> It's a prototype-style OO, though.
18:15:59 <fizzie> So you can add methods to objects any way you wish.
18:23:15 <oklopol> MizardX: $ followed by alnum
18:25:12 <oklopol> sure. at least in actual oklotalk
18:27:23 <oklopol> you can add them if you please, there's a rational number implementation, the one you linked.
18:29:29 <oklopol> i can't tell you because you can already deduce it yourself :P
18:29:56 <MizardX> double quoted, sure. But not all languages allow single quotes, or they mean different things.
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19:26:45 <ehird> Someone make up a nice-sounding word. That is short.
19:28:03 <ehird> that is nice. now other people enter some and i shall pick the nicest, and you shall gain money*
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19:35:16 <AnMaster> ehird, are you ignoring me or would you see a word I pasted?
19:35:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well no I don't want to circumvent ignore
19:36:57 <ehird> Deewiant: that was a very dada two lines.
19:37:14 <AnMaster> as I said Deewiant: his own fault
19:38:19 <oklopol> rolls off the tongue pretty nicely
19:38:24 <ehird> oklopol: maybe in finnish
19:38:26 <ehird> how do you pronounce it?
19:38:32 <ehird> also it's quite hard to type
19:39:30 <oklopol> ehird: i pronounce it like it's pronounced in finnish. i don't think you can express that in english
19:39:57 <Deewiant> yu doesn't sound very nice to me
19:39:58 <oklopol> and no it's not a very finnish word, unless you're a lizard
19:40:17 <oklopol> "yu" can't exist in a finnish word.
19:40:33 <oklopol> that's why you don't like idd
19:41:00 <Deewiant> but there are some things that can't exist in finnish words which sound good
19:41:23 <oklopol> well flyug for instance :O
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20:47:02 <fizzie> From the German word flugzeug 'aircraft'.
20:50:28 <Deewiant> I've never seen das Zeug in itself mean anything other than "stuff" as an uncountable
20:51:20 <oklopol> like, as a singular? "es gab Zeug da" or something?
20:51:59 <oklopol> singular isn't the correct term...
20:52:11 <oklopol> like milch and wasser and the like.
20:53:17 <Deewiant> "uncountable." » "like, singular? no, that's not right." » "uncountable". » "yeah"
20:53:44 <oklopol> stopped reading after "stuff"
20:55:23 <oklopol> well anyway, i haven't seen it used as an uncountable
20:55:47 <oklopol> but, i'd say it's the "kalu" in "työkalu".
20:55:49 <Deewiant> that's the only way I've seen it used alone
20:56:16 <Deewiant> but you don't have "ein Zeug".
21:00:34 <oklopol> (google gives "das Zeug" as the first sensical result)
21:01:02 <Deewiant> yep, and that's uncountable. Or a meaning I'm unaware of. :-P
21:01:45 <oklopol> i didn't even read context, but hmm right, that's true :D
21:02:05 <oklopol> i'm trying to do other stuff here, really end up doing nothing at all.
21:06:53 <oklopol> now Deewiant, how come we keep ending up in arguments about language? i mean, i don't even care about language!
21:07:18 <fizzie> I have a feeling I've been the cause of at least some of those.
21:08:04 <ais523> time to go home, anyway
21:08:40 <oklopol> Deewiant: I DON'T THINK O/ IS ACTUALLY ENGLISH
21:09:06 <fizzie> Gneh, my Tampere train leaves in ten hours, and I'm still lacking slides for a presentationationary thing. :/
21:09:23 <fizzie> Yes, according to people here "->" is a very Finnish thing.
21:09:51 <oklopol> Deewiant: in fact, in my opinion... nevermind
21:24:54 * AnMaster wonders what would happen if an (email) bounce message would bounce
21:25:04 <AnMaster> would it stop bouncing after a while or just continue?
21:25:43 <fizzie> Double-bounces aren't usually sent out.
21:26:42 <fizzie> Postfix at least has a feature to deliver double-bounces to the postmaster account; I'm not sure if it even does that by default.
21:28:41 <fizzie> I think with the default configuration Postfix sends bounce messages using a suitable SMTP envelope address so that if the bounce bounces, it will be just discarded.
21:30:02 <fizzie> Still, I'm sure there are numerous people who have managed to configure infinite email loops.
21:30:39 <fizzie> "grep -c TODO" gives me the number 11 for my LaTeX file. :/
21:32:35 <fizzie> I should be packing up things and all that fluff, too.
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00:30:38 <comex> someone mentioned my name
00:30:44 <comex> who, or for what purpose, I cba to tell
00:31:43 <Slereah_> COMEX, COME SAVE ME FROM AN EVIL WIZARD
00:33:09 <MizardX> about http://etherpad.com/
00:33:41 <comex> so collabedit clone?
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00:35:39 <MizardX> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.11.19 at 08:10:58
00:38:52 <comex> kate plugin or something would be cooler
00:38:58 <comex> or anything that can do syntax highlighting
00:39:03 <comex> but not a goddamn website
00:39:42 <comex> something that can collaboratively edit/save existing code on one guy's drive would be pretty cool, I've never seen a good program though
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02:16:53 <MizardX> +ul ((.)S:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^):^
02:18:45 <MizardX> Hmm... thutubot didn't return from the crash
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08:02:11 <GregorR> A more challenging version of Five Clicks to Jesus: See how many times you can make it to Jesus in five clicks without ever reusing a page. http://codu.org/5ctj/
08:04:53 <olsner> oh crap, there's no limit to how much time you can spend doing that
08:17:37 <olsner> well, yeah, there is the length of my life, the heat death of the universe and/or the demise of the internet, whichever comes first
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12:35:01 <ehird> GregorR: ?restart=1 fails
14:34:36 <ehird> GregorR: I submitted 5 clicks to jesus to reddit
14:35:11 <ehird> just the main one, it should probably be in /r/pointlessgamesaboutjesusandwikipediaandsixdegreesofseperation or something
14:37:07 <ehird> Your current clicks:
14:37:08 <ehird> Google_Book_Search
14:37:09 <ehird> Censorship_by_Google
14:37:10 <ehird> United_States_of_America
14:37:14 <ehird> Christianity_in_the_United_States
14:37:18 <ehird> ^^ can anyone do better than that from Google book?
14:42:52 <ehird> YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
14:42:56 <ehird> Your current clicks:
14:42:56 <ehird> Face_(Benjamin_Zephaniah)
14:42:56 <ehird> Benjamin_Zephaniah
14:42:57 <ehird> Rastafari_movement
14:43:42 <ehird> GregorR: fix the restart
14:44:54 <ehird> YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH
14:45:24 <ehird> Your current clicks:
14:45:24 <ehird> Seyyed_Jafar_Kashfi
14:45:25 <ehird> Christians_in_Iran
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15:41:04 <ehird> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4264941.stm lol.
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17:03:32 <nooga> i haven't got left eye!
17:08:23 <AnMaster> well aren't IQ tests quite inexact measurements
17:08:59 <oklopol> well yes, i wouldn't say they test intelligence
17:09:09 <nooga> codu.org is dead :D
17:09:16 <oklopol> but that's irrelevant, being in the top 2% simply isn't news, is y point
17:09:31 <oklopol> so i just think they could've left that out
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17:09:46 <AnMaster> nooga, connection issues for him I guess
17:09:51 <oklopol> i mean, 2% of the whole population or earth is in the top 2%
17:10:01 <oklopol> and that's a lot of people.
17:10:19 <ehird> codu.org is dead because i submitted it to reddit
17:10:28 <nooga> i've got 138 in mensa test, dunno why\
17:10:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, however is it top 2% of the those who took the tests?
17:10:33 -!- MizardX has joined.
17:10:52 <AnMaster> oklopol, does it even include those who didn't score so well
17:10:55 <oklopol> probably clever people take it more likely than idiots
17:10:58 <ehird> GregorR: your host fucking sucks
17:11:34 <oklopol> i have a book by mensa, with some kinda practise tests¨
17:11:42 <oklopol> but i can pretty much get everything right
17:11:49 <nooga> there are some things like finding mistakes
17:12:06 <oklopol> two pics next to each other? :P
17:12:11 <nooga> werid questions like "what is the most simmilar thing to a half an apple"
17:12:31 <oklopol> ah, yeah the retarded ones are sometimes hard
17:12:37 <nooga> there are some stupid pictures and you must choose which variant is ok
17:12:40 <AnMaster> nooga, um the other half unless it was asymmetrical
17:13:00 <AnMaster> however I don't know if that is what they want or not
17:13:11 <nooga> i told the same ;p
17:13:50 <nooga> but i do not feel that IQ, i consider myself as a extremely stupid person ;p
17:14:01 <nooga> doing idiotic things all the time
17:14:17 <AnMaster> anyway IQ tests depend on stuff like culture, for the verbal tests and such
17:15:19 <oklopol> the test should be about algorithmics and mathematics
17:15:30 <oklopol> if you're intelligent in some other subject, hey, i don't care!
17:15:30 <AnMaster> also I'm certainly good at some things, but tricky questions is not my strength
17:16:48 -!- Corun has joined.
17:17:14 <nooga> when intelligence comes with clumsyness it's for nothing
17:17:45 <AnMaster> nooga, you mean like not being able to do the complex math without a paper and a pencil?
17:17:50 <nooga> my behaviour indicates that i'm 5 year old retard :D
17:18:21 <AnMaster> well I can't do anything except basic calculations without paper and pen
17:18:27 <AnMaster> or even better a graph calculator
17:18:29 <oklopol> nooga: yeah i have the same feeling about myself occasionally
17:18:34 <AnMaster> I need to see the problem written down
17:18:58 <AnMaster> can't keep a lot of number/terms/whatever in in my brain at once
17:19:45 <oklopol> i was in the finals of a mental calculation competition once
17:20:10 <oklopol> me too, it's just others suck more
17:20:42 <oklopol> i didn't really do well in the finals
17:20:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, so can you take 146 + 325 in your head?
17:20:55 <oklopol> i actually lost because i didn't *go* to the finals xD
17:20:56 <nooga> i had a chess master in my class in high school
17:21:01 <nooga> that guy was enormous
17:21:03 <oklopol> my math teacher was soooo dissappointed
17:21:38 <AnMaster> I would need to write the calculation down
17:21:38 <oklopol> was wondering why i didn't remember any details
17:22:11 <nooga> calculate 53^7/2 .... five seconds .... Mat says: 587355569918.5
17:23:01 <nooga> master chess player from my previous school
17:23:20 <nooga> he had loads of RAM in his brain ;p
17:24:18 <oklopol> i wonder if it's too late to start practising that
17:25:01 <MizardX> I'm a member of Mensa in my country. :)
17:25:16 <oklopol> nooga: i don't think it is, but i don't have proof either way
17:25:38 <ehird> real geniuses know to stay away from other geniuses, because they're fuckwits.
17:26:12 <nooga> irb(main):001:0> 53**7/2.0
17:26:16 <MizardX> geh... giantic ping to the server... I'll reconnect
17:26:24 -!- MizardX has quit ("Sanity shutdown").
17:26:40 -!- MizardX has joined.
17:27:07 <MizardX> {MizardX} I'm a member of Mensa in my country. :)
17:27:49 <oklopol> nnscript just has a colon after the nick :|
17:28:10 <oklopol> yeah nnscript can be any things
17:28:18 <oklopol> i mean my nnscript, naturally
17:28:46 <oklopol> i use the default, it's visuallicious
17:30:08 <AnMaster> <oklopol> nnscript just has a colon after the nick :|
17:30:10 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
17:30:32 <MizardX> The full line: «18:28:37» {oklopol} i use the default, it's visuallicious
17:30:55 <AnMaster> 18.27:49 <oklopol> nnscript just has a colon after the nick :|
17:33:47 <GregorR> ehird: Argh, whywould you reddit it X_X
17:33:59 <ehird> GregorR: because i like it
17:34:01 <GregorR> ehird: And also, I've never had even the smallest problem with restart=1
17:34:15 <GregorR> ehird: Yeah, but I wasn't necessarily done working out the kinks :P
17:34:20 <ehird> ?restart=1 redirects to ?restart=1?
17:34:48 <GregorR> That's never happened to me >_>
17:35:23 <GregorR> I would fix it, but I can't connect to my server.
17:35:28 <GregorR> Perhaps because somebody reddit'd it.
17:35:51 <AnMaster> GregorR, what page was it btw?
17:36:33 <GregorR> AnMaster: I made a web-page version of the game five-clicks-to-jesus.
17:36:55 -!- sebbu has joined.
17:36:57 <MizardX> AnMaster: http://pici.se/326552/ :)
17:36:58 <GregorR> AnMaster: You go to a random Wikipedia page and try to get to Jesus in five clicks or less.
17:37:14 <GregorR> Shit, my hosting company is not going to be happy with me :P
17:37:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, you can blame it on ehird
17:37:38 <AnMaster> he should pay for it obviously
17:37:44 <GregorR> No, they're not going to be happy with me because I had to use leet hax to make it work 8-D
17:38:21 <GregorR> Their PHP is in secure mode, which won't let you connect to (e.g.) Wikipedia from PHP, so I had to install my own PHP since they allow CGI :P
17:38:26 <AnMaster> MizardX, what about that picture?
17:39:16 <oklopol> it's not ehird's fault GregorR's afraid of fame and glory.
17:39:35 <AnMaster> GregorR, that would increase the load a lot
17:39:51 <AnMaster> GregorR, like not using php accelerator which they would probably use
17:40:10 <GregorR> AnMaster: norly lawl liek DUH THAT'S THE PROBLEM I'M SAYING THEY'LL KILL ME FOR
17:40:23 <GregorR> And the reason I didn't want this being reddited or what not :P
17:40:50 <AnMaster> GregorR, idea: do it on client side
17:41:17 <AnMaster> don't know if it can connect to another site though
17:41:21 <GregorR> AnMaster: The reason I did it server side was to make cheating impossible.
17:41:36 <GregorR> Since JavaScript AFAIK can't connect to another server.
17:42:16 <AnMaster> GregorR, writing the cgi-script in C maybe could have helped.
17:42:25 <AnMaster> just the bit that handles the remote connection
17:44:46 <GregorR> ehird: What's your browser by the way? I think it's your browser that's effing up restart, not my server (per se)
17:44:52 <GregorR> ehird: That is, your browser is interpreting the URL wrong.
17:45:10 * GregorR just forwarded codu.org to google.com via DNS :P
17:45:26 <GregorR> Isn't it awesome that DNS changes propagate instantly
17:45:46 <AnMaster> GregorR, they don't afaik, even if ttl is short it still takes a bit
17:46:10 <GregorR> The last statement by me was sarcasm :P
17:48:12 <AnMaster> it seems to point to one of those "reserved domain that goes nowhere" ads pages
17:48:30 <AnMaster> GregorR, hm it already moved for me
17:51:20 <GregorR> ehird: WHY WOULD YOU KILL MY SERVER
17:51:36 <ehird> Gee, I was not aware that it could not handle being at #47151 or something on reddit
17:53:00 <GregorR> No, it couldn't handle my bug causing infinite redirects (probably)
17:53:14 -!- Mony has joined.
17:53:52 <GregorR> Well, I'm going to go take a shower while my DNS changes propagate.
17:54:03 <GregorR> And hope like heck that this goes under the radar for my host.
17:56:03 <ehird> Eh, slicehost don't mind you using a shitload of bandwidth over your limit, they just tell you to do something if it happens a lot.
18:07:14 <GregorR> Slicehost costs a shitload of money.
18:07:49 <ehird> $20/mo is not a "shitload of money".
18:09:09 <GregorR> $20/mo four times as much as I'm currently paying.
18:10:12 <GregorR> That being said, I am now strongly considering switching ;)
18:12:10 <GregorR> What about CPU time? Does slicehost monitor CPU usage?
18:13:49 <GregorR> OK, I'm buying an effing slice. Grrf.
18:20:13 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
18:21:01 <ehird> It's shared between slices
18:21:05 <ehird> So you'll just end up taking littler slices cpu :P
18:21:07 <ehird> ofc, with a slice you have to run your own apache and all. I'm sure you'll manage. :P
18:21:20 <GregorR> That's sort of the /advantage/ of SliceHost.
18:24:50 <GregorR> Now upgrading my slice to Lenny.
18:25:39 <GregorR> WTF, you can upgrade etch->lenny in some ~300MB? :P
18:45:11 -!- AquaLoqua has joined.
18:45:36 * GregorR is now copying in his web page.
18:52:48 * ehird invented a voting system
18:53:53 <GregorR> You think you invented it, or you think YOU invented it?
18:54:16 <GregorR> That is, do you think you invented it rather than just remembering it, or do you think you were the first to invent it (which isn't really relevant)
18:54:17 <ehird> I think *I* invented it.
18:54:41 <ehird> Let votes be the number of ballots entered.
18:54:46 <ehird> For each candidate:
18:54:46 <oklopol> everything you say can and will be irrelevant
18:54:55 <ehird> oklopol: stop disrupting my formatting.
18:54:56 <ehird> Let votes be the number of ballots entered.
18:54:59 <ehird> For each candidate:
18:55:08 <fizzie> Combo-braeker time would be this.
18:55:21 <ehird> (Votes are a list of candidates, in descending preferential order)
18:55:39 <ehird> Let likeifyness be the position of the candidate on the ballot.
18:56:04 <ehird> Let likeifyness2 be {1, 0.5, 0.25, 0.125, ...}[likeifyness].
18:56:13 <ehird> Increase the candidate's cool factor by likeifyness2.
18:56:23 <ehird> The candidate's popularity is (cool factor)/(number of votes).
18:56:31 <ehird> Then, the candidate with the highest popularity wins.
18:56:37 <ehird> Has this been invented?
18:57:21 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:57:24 <oklopol> so basically everyone has infinite votes, but they decrease logarithically in value
18:58:00 <ehird> I developed this for b nomic, soo I'll just steal an exampel
18:58:06 <ehird> ehird Teucer Codae BP
18:58:07 <ehird> ehird BP Teucer Codae
18:58:14 -!- Asztal has joined.
18:58:27 <ehird> because teucers popularity factor is about 0.5208
18:58:41 <fizzie> It certainly sounds very similar to some "everyone ranks all candidates they like" system I've heard about.
18:59:02 <ehird> It's simple to describe, simple to count ballots with it, and seems to give good results.
18:59:26 <oklopol> i don't think that's a good system
19:00:27 <fizzie> See "Preferential voting" in wikipedia; there's a list, it might be one of those.
19:00:46 <oklopol> well my argument was that when people list their preferences, they may not always know exactly what's the number one choice
19:01:04 <oklopol> with 1 vs. 0.5 for the two first factors
19:01:12 <ehird> this solves it, though
19:01:14 <oklopol> it's very essential you choose the first one right
19:01:26 <ehird> maybe it should be decreasing in another way?
19:01:49 <oklopol> i'm comparing to just averaging positions of candidates...
19:02:10 <oklopol> i don't know, i'm not especially interested in humans :P
19:03:43 <fizzie> Apparently they use that sort of thing (but with points 1/1, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, ...) in Nauru, or something like that.
19:04:28 -!- AquaLoqua has quit ("Dana").
19:04:57 <oklopol> well, probably it's reasonable to make people actually choose the exact best one, especially if only a small amount of things will win the vote anyway
19:05:08 <fizzie> You could also give everyone a fixed amount of voting power (that's pretty much what that thing does, anyway) and let them divide it whichever way they want. Though it's maybe a bit hard to handle those voters who vote 1/pi points for candidate A, 1-1/pi points for candidate B.
19:05:20 <oklopol> but that does sound better than 1/2^n
19:05:43 <ehird> oklopol: you know what the problem is-
19:05:55 <ehird> with just averaging candidate's positions?
19:05:59 <ehird> ehird Teucer Codae BP
19:06:02 <ehird> ehird BP Teucer Codae
19:06:04 <ehird> => In that election, Codae wins.
19:06:47 <ehird> obviously, he shouldn't, if you look at the ballots
19:06:50 <oklopol> can't say i understand that logic
19:06:57 <ehird> either Teucer or BP wins
19:07:11 <ehird> (position+position+...)/num_of_votes
19:07:23 <ehird> if you calculate it
19:07:28 <GregorR> Hey, I'll finally be able to have https://codu.org/ . That's something.
19:07:31 <ehird> BP or Teucer SHOULD win, if you look at it.
19:07:44 <oklopol> teucer has a smaller position in each and every vote
19:08:07 <oklopol> so naturally his average position is smaller
19:08:25 <ehird> he SHOULD win with a decent system
19:08:40 <fizzie> (position+position+...)/num_of_votes_where_it_occurs is a more reasonable "average".
19:08:47 <ehird> teucer or bp should win with a decent system
19:08:51 <ehird> but codae wins with your stupid system :P
19:09:03 <oklopol> ehird: that's not possible
19:09:05 <ehird> fizzie: well, yeah, but then one vote at #1 makes that candidate win
19:09:49 <oklopol> he'd win with my system too, i can see that without any calculations.
19:10:02 <fizzie> Well, alternatively you could stick all non-voted at the same place to the end of the list, and then normalize the positions so that 0 is first, 1 is last.
19:10:10 <oklopol> what are the average positions of the guys then, in my system?
19:10:55 <oklopol> if codae's average position is seriously less than teucer's, then there's something wrong with the world
19:11:20 <oklopol> i mean, his positions are 3, 3, 3 and 4
19:12:50 <fizzie> ehird's not using an average of those numbers, because of the problem that if you just do that, then the guy who's #1 in someone's list and completely unvoted in others will get an average position of 1 and maybe even win.
19:14:26 <fizzie> And anyway the position is a bit silly-ish when the length of the candidate lists vary. Assuming you won't require everyone to rank the whole list in the preferred order.
19:14:46 <fizzie> You could assign normalized positions to all candidates for all voters, though.
19:15:28 <oklopol> ehird thought i meant the guys who get bad positions on average should win
19:15:40 <oklopol> which i find pretty reasonable, why wouldn't i suggest that
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19:18:39 <oklopol> fizzie: yes, if only votes that mention candidate X count for choosing the best one, then very little known ones will only get votes from people who have a special reason to vote for them. so someone could win because only their family knew about them
19:19:31 <oklopol> so it's obvious you should assume people who aren't mentioned in a vote should get some kinda negative feedback from that vote
19:19:46 <oklopol> not "feedback", i have no words.
19:19:59 <ehird> my original method trumps all these so far :P
19:20:20 <oklopol> ehird: does it actually differ from what i suggested?
19:20:31 <oklopol> i mean, assuming you don't do it in some retarded fashion
19:20:36 <ehird> it has teucer winning that election
19:21:00 <ehird> which is the Correct Outcome, intuitively, I'd say
19:21:04 <ehird> either teucer or BP
19:21:08 <ehird> it succeeds the test :P
19:21:23 <oklopol> i'm 99% sure you'd get one of those with my method too
19:22:07 <oklopol> i have a feeling you have no idea what i've been telling you.
19:22:22 <ehird> i have a feeling that's nice
19:22:24 <fizzie> Your "original" method is also not that original, given that it's just Borda count with a custom point-assignment; 1/2^n is not *that* different from 1/n, except that listing more than very few candidates becomes pointless very quickly.
19:23:34 <ehird> Eh, whatever, I'll go with 1/n :P
19:24:20 <ais523> isn't that just a Borda count with different weights?
19:28:23 <fizzie> Averaging normalized positions would give you the ranking: bp (.44), teucer (.55), ehird (.66), codae (.83). I'm not sure if that simplifies to Borda count with the correct assignment of weights, though.
19:28:45 <fizzie> Maybe it does, since it's pretty much just summing things up.
19:28:59 <oklopol> ehird: teucer wins, bp a close second
19:29:30 <ehird> show your calculatons.
19:30:17 <oklopol> i made everyone who's not in the vote #5
19:31:14 <oklopol> anyway, the point is, this is a trivial issue, and that it's clear either BP or teucer wins no matter how you implement it
19:32:32 <fizzie> Voting systems seem to tend towards the complex, though... even the D'Hondt thing we use for parliamentary elections is not particularly simple.
19:33:18 <fizzie> And I think one of the student-organization-related elections did something utterly complicated, too.
19:33:49 <fizzie> Incidentally, I'm at Tampere now. (Which probably says nothing to non-Finns, and even for Finnish people I don't think we have any locals here?)
19:34:25 <oklopol> i can't think of a much simpler scheme to get parties in the system
19:34:48 <oklopol> if you had been in turku, i'd have had a task for you.
19:35:06 <fizzie> Both start with a T, so it's pretty close.
19:35:55 <oklopol> unfortunately position biased hamming distance is not the thing we're looking for here
19:36:23 <fizzie> And yes, if you insist on having the parties involved in the mess, I guess it's reasonably simple. Still, you *could* just count all votes per party, use that to set the amount of seats, and then use absolute order of candidates to select from within parties; that's simpler than the quotient messups.
19:37:14 <oklopol> tbh i can't see the crucial difference between those systems right away
19:37:25 <oklopol> but i still don't think it's complicated
19:38:06 <fizzie> You do need to keep updating the numbers when you assign seats.
19:38:17 <fizzie> Maybe it's not complicated in an absolute sense of the word.
19:38:20 <fizzie> But it's not just sums. :p
19:38:42 <fizzie> They're singing the "happy birthday" song in the hotel restaurant; the noise comes through my door.
19:39:54 <fizzie> I have to give a presentation at http://www.cs.tut.fi/~varri/medinfo/PreSem8.htm
19:40:41 <fizzie> It's a HUT/TTY-arranged seminar thing to complement the Hatutus Fall seminar today-afternoon.
19:41:53 <oklopol> Noise Robust LVCSR Feature Extraction Based on the Stabilized Weighted Linear Prediction
19:42:16 <fizzie> Hatutus being "the pattern-recognition research society of Finland" ("HAhmonTUnnistuksen TUtkimuksen Seura" is where the letters come from) or some-such. It's a bit of a punny name, since it also means something like "the putting-on of hats".
19:42:27 <oklopol> yeah i could talk about that for like a whole course's worth.
19:42:56 <oklopol> yeah also means the same as "vitutus" in some contexts
19:43:06 <oklopol> which i can't find a good translation for
19:43:17 <fizzie> The state of being pissed of, maybe.
19:43:35 <oklopol> yeah, right, guess you could break it down like that
19:44:36 <oklopol> (the task would've been to get me some coke, if you're wondering :P)
19:44:53 <fizzie> I *did* wonder, but thought it unbecoming of me to ask.
19:45:10 <fizzie> Is that "coke" as in the soft drink, or "coke" as in the drug?
19:45:48 <oklopol> i'll usually for the other one in /sg
19:45:49 <fizzie> That's good, I'm not really sure how one would go about obtaining the latter.
19:46:22 <oklopol> me neither, finland isn't really the best country for that
19:47:11 <fizzie> I wouldn't even be here except that I happened to walk past my supervisor's room at the particular moment when his supervisor was there, and they were all "hey, you probably don't have anything better to do, go and prepare a presentation for this thing".
19:48:04 <oklopol> so you told the "k i'll whip something up about Noise Robust LVCSR Feature Extraction Based on the Stabilized Weighted Linear Prediction by this afternoon"?
19:50:59 <fizzie> It's the title of a conference paper draft I've been working on. :p
19:51:06 <fizzie> I just made some slides out of that content.
19:51:52 <fizzie> Not yet quite sure what I'll say about it, but it's just 20 minutes, how hard could it be.
19:55:56 <ehird> fizzie: start talking about befunge
19:59:15 <fizzie> I think at least the aforementioned supervisors would. :p
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20:33:18 <ais523> oklopol: nope, I corrected oerjan's bad oko
20:33:41 <oklopol> ais523: yeah okay that's fine
20:33:53 <oerjan> hey mine was first so there!
20:34:19 <oerjan> oko doesn't quite work with three people
20:40:44 * oerjan tries to write the word "proofreading" and has to correct himself three times
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20:49:26 <olsner> ais523: any luck with your mod_rewrite project btw?
20:49:34 <ais523> nah, I've been doing about 6 other things at once
20:49:40 <ais523> and don't actually have mod_rewrite to test on
20:50:05 <olsner> I'm pretty sure mod_rewrite comes with apache by default
20:50:09 -!- Mony has quit ("Join the Damnation now !").
21:10:26 <oklopol> fizzie: where's your nick fro?
21:11:35 <fizzie> Er, well, actually, to tell you the truth, it's from the name "Fizban" in the Dragonlance series of fantasy books. Cut me some slack; I was so very young back then. (Then it morphed to "Fizzle" when the original was so often taken in IRC, then to "Fizzie" and finally to "fizzie".)
21:12:15 <oklopol> also fizzle is like pizzle
21:12:16 <fizzie> Maybe I should retcon a better etymology for it.
21:12:43 <oklopol> dragonlance? most of my friends play d&d, i'm not judging you.
21:12:44 <ais523> it's a good etymology, I like it
21:13:39 * oerjan vaguely recalls a Fizban in a MUD he played when he was not quite very young
21:13:49 <fizzie> Some people complained that "fizzle" is too feminine; but they didn't mind "fizzie". Go figure.
21:14:26 <oklopol> well i guess fizzle is a feminine pizzle. indeed, go figure
21:15:52 * oerjan cannot find such a meaning of fizzle, but it _does_ mean "complete failure"
21:16:14 <oklopol> well i was just going by Feminine pIZZLE
21:16:26 <oklopol> but okay, that may be even worse
21:17:02 <ais523> let's call fizzie emininiep from now on
21:17:07 <ais523> because it sounds good
21:17:17 <oerjan> the suggested etymology is that it originally meant "fart"
21:17:21 <ais523> oerjan: "fizzle out" is an idiom in English
21:17:46 <ais523> it's like running out of power, but with more sparks and hissing noises and lightning and fire
21:17:56 <ais523> like when a firework runs out of explosion
21:17:59 <fizzie> First google-hit of "fizzie" is "Fizzies - kids fruit-flavored, effervescent drink tabled"; and there are quite a lot of "bath fizzies" too. I guess it still beats the "complete failure" connotations.
21:45:29 <GregorR> codu.org is now on SliceHost.
21:45:46 <GregorR> My old host suspended my account but the server is still fucked X-P
21:48:29 -!- nooga has joined.
21:50:48 <oerjan> and not a real swede in sight
21:51:44 <oerjan> they're so tacky, in their blue swede shoes
21:52:09 <GregorR> oerjan: HA HA U R SO CLEVER IMPART UR JOKITUDE UNTO US SIMPLTUNS
21:53:08 <ais523> oerjan: yes, that is a really really bad pun
21:53:25 <ais523> GregorR: so in other words ehird just cost you lost of monet
21:53:46 <ehird> eh, i just submitted it to reddit.
21:53:48 <ehird> it barely got any traffic.
21:53:53 <ehird> plus GregorR switched on the merits
21:53:58 <ehird> the suspension was just the instigator...
21:54:08 <ehird> also, wow, codu.org is fast now
21:54:14 <ehird> GregorR: what webserver are you using?
21:54:46 <ehird> i switched eso-std.org over to nginx yesterday
21:54:50 <ehird> lot less memory usage, lot faster
21:56:37 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
21:57:33 <GregorR> ehird: Well, so's your face.
22:06:06 <nooga> ehird: i bet i can write something much faster than nginx for displaying "sometimes i fly around in a spaceship :>"
22:06:25 <ehird> nooga: subdomains. have you heard of them
22:06:26 <ais523> nooga: there are other things on that site too
22:06:29 <ais523> just not linked from the homepage
22:07:30 <Sgeo> http://agora.eso-std.org/notary-report.html
22:09:05 <ehird> nooga: you will have to take it on trust that eso-std.org is used a lot.
22:16:13 <Sgeo> nooga, http://agoranomic.org
22:33:19 <ais523> nooga: what do you think of it?
22:35:57 <oerjan> thinking is dangerous. do _you_ want your head to explode?
22:36:07 <ais523> oerjan: I'll try not to think about that
22:43:54 <oerjan> "Millions of years from now, upon exacvating the bedroom closet of the average American household, palentologists will conclude that for the species Homo Sapiens the male was bipedal and the female was centipedal."
22:44:07 <oerjan> (as seen on IWC forum)
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22:53:05 <nooga> i still can't code that transistor placement algo
22:54:39 <oerjan> can wires cross? if not, do you know that the graph is planar?
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22:58:40 <oerjan> maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_drawing can give some pointers
23:00:59 <oerjan> or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Routing_(EDA)
23:01:12 <oerjan> "Almost every problem associated with routing is known to be intractable."
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23:10:44 <nooga> but it's not about placing paths as connections
23:11:04 <nooga> but just placing elements on a square grid
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23:42:09 <GregorR> Apparently I've PERMAKILLED my old host :P
23:44:58 <oklopol> what a relevant comment, you must be from the internet
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23:50:35 <oerjan> "Teenage terrorists bring down web hosting service"
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23:56:09 <MizardX> Teenage mutant ninja... pirates!
23:58:38 <GregorR> My cat has decided she wants to be in my lap 24/7.
00:00:31 <lament> congratulations, you're warmer than the surroundings
00:00:47 <lament> that means you're probably alive (or died only recently)
00:01:57 <oklopol> also the cat can smell your love for it, and it gets a warm fuzzy feeling outta that
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01:59:06 * oklopol needs to wake up in about 3 hours :<
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06:21:37 <habnabit> Hi guys! I imagine you don't see much python code, so I decided to fix that.
06:21:39 <habnabit> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/91848/
06:23:00 <habnabit> Who says you can't do functional programming in python?
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06:43:47 <lament> habnabit: please tell me it's not hand-written
06:44:33 <fizzie> Probably the same people who say you can't do functional programming in Perl, yet perl -e 'print &{&{sub { my $f = shift; return &$f($f); }}(sub { my $f = shift; return sub { my $n = shift; return 1 if $n < 2; return &{&$f($f)}($n-1) + &{&$f($f)}($n-2); }; })}(11), "\n";' is a perfectly fine and very functional recursive fibonacci.
06:44:33 <habnabit> lament, it is 100% hand-written.
06:45:04 <lament> hm... what is it supposed to do?
06:45:10 <lament> it just terminated without output
06:45:23 <habnabit> You have to add 'main(some_port_number)' at the end if you want to run it.
06:45:26 <lament> oh, duh, it's a function definition
06:45:46 <habnabit> telnet works as a client. It uses CRLF as a delimiter.
06:46:15 <habnabit> It handles SIGINT and SIGTERM gracefully, too.
06:47:55 <habnabit> So yeah. I probably am crazy, but I love writing obsfucated python.
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06:55:19 <pikhq> For my CS class, I've been asked to do merge sort and quick sort without recursion.
06:55:28 <pikhq> So, I have implemented a full call stack in C.
06:55:38 <pikhq> (instead of the somewhat crazy way they wanted it done)
06:57:12 <pikhq> No, though that is tempting.
06:57:21 <pikhq> Are you familiar with the unary && operator?
06:58:07 <pikhq> && returns the address of a goto label.
06:59:25 <pikhq> Stack of that and the rest of the state of my code, and a few gotos.
07:00:32 <GregorR> pikhq: I got a new server for Codu, Plof Hg is now accessible via https :P
07:13:29 <fizzie> That's not "C", though -- that's GCC.
07:17:00 <pikhq> fizzie: It's GNU C.
07:17:25 <pikhq> Fortunately for me, this class uses GNU C++... Which means I can do this crazy shit and get away with it.
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09:32:09 <oklopol> oh, seems i'm scrolled up.
09:32:18 <oklopol> that makes less sense in whatever context i happen to be saying it in.
09:33:01 <oklopol> habnabit: i have an irc bot that runs brainfuck written in that style
09:33:07 <oklopol> although it isn't obfuscated
09:34:32 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/python.txt though that's just the interp, but the irc stuff is trivial ofc
09:34:46 <oklopol> not sure where i have the actual botter
09:41:03 <habnabit> Though I cheat a little and use a dynamically-created dict subclass as a namespace instead of abusing function arguments.
09:41:26 <oklopol> yes that would be less verbose
10:18:01 <pikhq> oklopol: Obfuscation is easy.
10:18:22 <pikhq> And using goto in a low-level CS course for good reason is just silly.
10:38:07 <oklopol> pikhq: well i think trivial is a special case of easy, but i agree, it's easy.
10:39:05 <oklopol> and yeah, goto is often silly
10:45:24 <pikhq> What's silly is using goto to implement a call stack.
10:45:46 <oklopol> yes i read your idea, was pretty great imo
10:46:31 <pikhq> Unfortunately, the code in question works on my desktop computer, not the CS labs' computers...
10:46:44 * pikhq shakes his fist at GCC 3
10:48:07 <oklopol> hmm. now you made me want to do something.
10:49:18 <oklopol> an exercise in AOCP made me think it might be pretty cool to make like an esoteric programming book, would be pretty esoteric
10:49:42 <oklopol> like, introduce the best languages, and techniques for different paradigms
10:50:11 <pikhq> That would be pretty cool.
10:50:18 <oklopol> and perhaps some more formal treatment too, P'' and TM's and shit
10:50:31 <oklopol> i was thinking of a three-part structure
10:50:58 <oklopol> one part that's about compiling languages to others, that is, making layers of abstractions on languages
10:51:18 <oklopol> characterize the overhead of paradigm changes a bit, and stuff like that
10:51:52 <oklopol> then, something about programming directly in esolangs, visualizing things to yourself, and golfing, naturally
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10:52:17 <oklopol> i would have tons to say about these subjects, but i don't know if i'm structured enough to make an actual book.
10:52:30 <oklopol> and i'm a bit too lazy to try... i think, maybe i could try to try.
10:53:40 <oklopol> for a third part i was thinking the more formal stuff, proving esoprograms right and complexities, more formal treatment about the overhead of compilation between paradigms
10:55:16 <oklopol> and of course, tons of exercises, would definitely be the most fun set of exercises ever, if done well (non-biased objective opinion)
10:57:10 <oklopol> how's it hanging heathens?
11:04:49 <oklopol> i don't even know tbh. i'm so tired and hungry i'm talking in metaphors and mirages.
11:05:58 <oklopol> i slept about 2.5 hours last night
11:07:36 <pikhq> I'm thinking at the rate I'm going, I'm going to completely omit sleep today.
11:09:27 <oklopol> i pretty much have to read, or i won't reach my daily reading quota
11:10:14 * oklopol is slowly turning into a bibliophiliac, or whatever the term is
11:13:36 <oklopol> dream theater instrumentals = perfection
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11:31:51 <Slereah> Me too, 'cause it's actually in 10 monts.
11:32:36 <oklopol> but my age will be a composite number for ages after that :<
11:32:36 <Slereah> BUT MINE WAS A SHORTER AMOUNT OF TIME BEFORE
11:33:12 <Slereah> Also, I have to actually program something useful.
11:33:52 <Slereah> Like I morally should not do this D:
11:34:11 <Slereah> I have to program a simulation of a thousand particles.
11:34:31 <oklopol> well can you at least write it in an unlanguage?
11:35:01 <oklopol> pikhq is making just the right tool for you then
11:35:43 <Slereah> A particle automaton or something?
11:36:07 <oklopol> his making c recursion prettier
11:36:37 <Slereah> Well, it's to be done in regular c, me think!
11:36:48 <Slereah> Plus, I won't use recursion I think.
11:37:09 <Slereah> One over all time and one over all particles.
11:37:12 <oklopol> you have like gravities and shit?
11:37:29 <Slereah> Nah. It's the simulation of a gas.
11:37:44 <Slereah> 1000 classical particles, with three collision probabilities.
11:37:59 <oklopol> what does that latter thing mean
11:38:00 <Slereah> (elastic collision, one with losses and one with gain)
11:38:31 <Slereah> It means that after the collision, the particle has more kinetic energy
11:38:49 <Slereah> It's a quantum thingamagig.
11:39:10 <oklopol> rright, yeah, i wouldn't know anything about that
11:39:24 <oklopol> what are you aiming for with this?
11:39:32 <oklopol> something revolutionary i bet
11:39:36 <Slereah> Getting a good grade, mostly.
11:39:43 <oklopol> i've only ever written programs with *one* loop
11:39:53 <oklopol> this is a whole new dimension for me
11:40:43 <oklopol> so no gravity? you can boost this quite a lot with hashing then
11:41:01 <pikhq> Slereah: I was asked to do merge sort and quick sort without recursion.
11:41:06 <Slereah> The collisions aren't really done though, you know, a collision.
11:41:16 <pikhq> So, I implemented a call stack. Hooray.
11:41:31 <Slereah> It's an application of the class on random number generators.
11:41:47 <Slereah> Of course, it's a Boltzmann distribution, so it's a bit harder D:
11:42:34 <oklopol> Slereah: right, i have no idea about any of this
11:47:22 <AnMaster> Slereah, are you looking for a good RNG?
11:48:17 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blum_Blum_Shub is fairly secure iirc though slow
11:48:51 <Slereah> No need, we use the generator they gave us in class.
11:49:31 <Slereah> It's a mix of the (a * n) + b thingamagig and the registry moving one.
11:49:42 <Slereah> "Gnrateur raliste" we call it.
11:50:07 <AnMaster> Slereah, I'm not really an expert on that stuff
11:50:28 <Slereah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_congruential_generator
11:50:49 <Slereah> And... that one, I think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_feedback_shift_register
11:52:36 <Slereah> That's only to generate an equiprobable number between 0 and 1 though
11:52:45 <Slereah> The hard part is to do the distribution.
11:53:42 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarrow_algorithm looks nice
11:53:57 <AnMaster> Slereah, what are you going to use ifor?
11:54:39 <Slereah> Well, in a box of particles, the speed of those particles at thermal equilibrium is defined by a statistics.
11:55:02 <Slereah> The simplest model is the Maxwell-Boltzmann statistic.
11:55:15 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersenne_twister
11:55:18 <Slereah> Nah, as said, we use what we get in class.
11:55:21 <AnMaster> was developed for simulations iirc
11:55:32 <Slereah> Apparently it's what they use at work!
11:55:50 <Slereah> That's why I feel dirty, AnMaster
11:56:00 <Slereah> I have to do reasonable things D:
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14:12:05 <ehird> an algo that loops through an array twice is O(n), right?
14:12:09 <ehird> since O(n*2) = O(n)??
14:12:49 <Slereah_> Since it refers to the degree of the polynom.
14:13:01 <Slereah_> I think. I mostly use the O that means pretty much the opposite.
14:14:00 <Slereah_> (O(x) in science means ax + bx + cx^3 + ...)
14:18:01 <oerjan> well, one is the limit as n -> infinity, the other as x -> 0
14:18:19 <Slereah_> Yeah, that's the rigorous definition.
14:18:29 <Slereah_> When you do physics, though, it's pretty much that.
14:18:40 <Slereah_> 'cause it usually pops up from infinite series.
14:18:44 <oerjan> and a function can be O(x) without being analytic
14:19:17 <Slereah_> It can be O anything, technically.
14:20:21 <Slereah_> But what amuses me is, in computer science, a big O is bad.
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14:30:02 <ais523> ehird: for i=1..n: for j=1..n: do stuff is O(n^2); for i=1..n: do stuff; for j=1..b: do stuff; is O(n) (=O(2n)).
14:48:58 <oklopol> 16:13… Slereah_: (O(x) in science means ax + bx² + cx^3 + ...) <<< i don't get it, explain
14:49:23 <ehird> http://qntm.org/?gay graph marriages
15:09:44 <oklopol> but yeah the idea of graph marriages is nice, but we definitely need directed edges, and edge weights
15:10:08 <oklopol> i mean, i'm not gonna marry psygnisfive no matter how many times he asks, but i guess i could marry him a *little*, that wouldn't be so bad.
15:11:05 <oklopol> i guess there's already facebook for that kinda thing
15:13:33 <ehird> marry him a little
15:14:11 <ehird> "oklopol... will you marry me 0.5714?"
15:14:38 <oerjan> "make that 0.4836 and we have a deal"
15:14:58 <oklopol> "my heart already belongs 0.683 to someone else, but i guess i could give you like 0.249"
15:15:54 * oerjan was hoping for some good old haggling here
15:16:38 <oklopol> engagement wouldn't be needed either, you could just marry people gradually, over time
15:16:51 <oklopol> maybe there could be functions over time attached on the edges!!
15:17:06 <oklopol> so you could get married over the course of two years
15:18:38 <ehird> i'm writing botte discuss.
15:19:25 <oerjan> to wryte a botte is a moste eloquente thinge
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15:19:39 <oklopol> fizziet: okay *that's* feminine
15:19:40 <fizziet> I get so utterly bored in trains.
15:20:02 <ehird> that was some disjointed conversationn
15:20:17 <fizziet> Hey, my normal client is not here.
15:20:24 <oerjan> i think i'll skip the obvious joke
15:20:28 <oklopol> yeah, so you don't even have an excuse!
15:20:55 <oerjan> fizziet: although you are perfectly poised for making shakespeare jokes
15:21:21 <oerjan> although really we would need hiato here...
15:21:59 <oerjan> and this would nicely converge the two last conversations
15:22:00 <oklopol> fizziet: have you considered sleeping?
15:22:35 <oerjan> because it ends with -o
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15:24:20 <okleo> o fizziette, how beautifully is thine facette on this day so brighte!
15:24:29 <okleo> i could so write shakespeare
15:25:02 <oerjan> oh fungot wherefore art thou fungot?
15:25:16 <ais523> and where did thututbot go, I wonder?
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15:25:25 <ehird> it is just a good thing i am writing botte
15:25:27 <ais523> oh, ehird rebooted rutian
15:25:36 <oerjan> no wonder ehird wanted to wryte a botte
15:25:39 <ehird> or are you an amnesiac now
15:25:54 <ais523> yes, your upgrade rebooted rutian
15:26:01 <ehird> uh, is that my fault?
15:26:05 <ehird> it was a full upgrade.
15:26:12 <oerjan> ehird: ais523 uploaded himself, you reset him too
15:26:15 <ehird> it did shit to everything. it needed a reboot
15:26:25 <ehird> in fact, iirc the installer didn't even give me a choice
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15:28:06 <fizziet_> Meh, the previous one disconnectied abruptly.
15:28:22 <thutubot> Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! ...too much output!
15:29:26 <oerjan> fizziet_ is connecting from a sauna in lahti?
15:29:48 <okleo> actually saunalahti means a lahti containing a sauna
15:29:58 <okleo> lahti is also a word
15:30:02 <fizziet_> Saunalahti ("Sauna bay") is a very common place name in Finland.
15:30:11 <fizziet_> But it's also a finnish ISP/mobile operator.
15:30:18 <ais523> what's with the subsubdomain name? it almost looks like roman numerals but has K in
15:30:36 <MizardX> +ul ((.)S:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^):^
15:30:40 <thutubot> ................................................................................................................................ ...too much output!
15:30:40 <fizziet_> I'm not sure; but I think the roman numerals correspond directly to the IP.
15:31:15 <fizziet_> Or "directly" in the sense that it's some base address + the roman numeral number.
15:31:18 <fizziet_> Not sure what they use K for, though.
15:32:19 <ais523> K = 10000 would make sense, possibly
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15:34:25 <oerjan> okleo: you are not fooling anyone all norwegians know Lahti is a place where they do skiing
15:34:42 <oerjan> so clearly you would want a lot of saunas for afterwards
15:35:45 <okleo> well naturally there are saunas in lahti, finnish homes are basically saunas with a second oven for cooking and another set of seats for sleeping.
15:36:06 <okleo> i just meant the composite noun doesn't mean Lahti, that's just not how composites nouns fork.
15:37:01 <oerjan> true that. i've found it weird that greek nouns sometimes _do_ fork that way
15:37:04 * okleo throws some water on the oven, getting cold
15:37:52 <okleo> hmph, god i hate it when things refuse to happen
15:38:41 <oerjan> e.g. philosophia = love of knowledge, from philos = lover and sophia = knowledge or something like that
15:39:46 <okleo> hmm, i've often wondered about that, actually
15:40:29 <oerjan> i haven't found a reference for this though
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16:29:34 <okleo> the university is not good for me, i'm actually making an uml diagram for my own purposes atm.
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17:56:33 <oerjan> Ceci n'est pas un anniversaire.
17:56:50 <ais523> oerjan: what in particular isn't it a birthday of?
17:57:25 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Magritte
17:57:49 <ais523> oerjan: I'm aware of the whole ceci n'est pas thing
17:57:54 <ais523> is it Magritte's birthday, I wonder?
17:58:22 * oerjan recommends clicking the link
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18:22:07 <oerjan> Ceci n'est pas un plop
18:23:39 <olsner> norwegians, norwegians
18:23:51 <oerjan> It also isn't Magritte's 110th birthday
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18:49:02 <AnMaster> this is not a line not sent on a non-existing protocol not called irc
18:49:24 <ais523> I think that's a true statement...
18:49:53 <AnMaster> ais523, so tell me if it is true or not
18:50:18 <ais523> so it wasn't sent on a protocol not called IRC
18:50:24 <ais523> and it wasn't sent on a protocol that didn't exist
18:50:31 <AnMaster> also the master of nested negations would be Marwin in HHGTG
18:50:52 <ais523> it collapses to not ((line sent not on IRC) and (line sent on nonexistent protocol))
18:51:16 <AnMaster> "this is not a line not sent.."
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20:45:13 <Deewiant> http://blog.jaoo.dk/2008/11/21/art-and-code-obscure-or-beautiful-code/ -- history of programming languages, 20 minutes in and they've already covered even befunge and piet :-)
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21:17:32 <Deewiant> they even present a shakespeare program as a play :-))
21:18:41 <ais523> someone should convert that video to a format I can actually see
21:25:43 <AnMaster> ais523, this url may work http://e6.video.blip.tv/0720006203922/Krab-50In50ByRichardPGabrielAndGuyLSteele278.avi
21:26:18 <ais523> actually, I just realised that an hour-long avi is probably not good to download
21:26:28 <ais523> given that IIRC it's uncompressed
21:28:43 <AnMaster> ais523, there are other formats there
21:29:00 <AnMaster> ais523, http://blip.tv/file/1472720/
21:29:54 <Asztal> AVI should be compressed
21:30:11 <ais523> none of the formats there are ones I can easily view, really
21:30:27 <Deewiant> What /can/ you easily view? O_o
21:30:42 <ais523> probably that's about it, tbg
21:30:50 * Deewiant points to http://www.videolan.org/
21:31:04 <ais523> but they changed the extension to avoid ambiguity with Ogg Vorbis
21:31:04 <AnMaster> ais523, what is ogg vorbis then?
21:31:14 <ais523> .ogg for Vorbis, .ogv for Theora
21:31:42 <AnMaster> still ogv/otg would have made more sense
21:36:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I prefer flac for my music
21:36:29 <AnMaster> much better sound quality really
21:36:39 <AnMaster> and about half the size of the raw format
21:37:55 <Deewiant> For purity's sake I keep stuff in a lossless format when possible even though I can't tell the difference between it and lossy
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21:46:48 <oklo> have to take a break to make me some noodles
21:47:07 <oklo> also i wish i wasn't so goddamn tired, i miss some of the awesome jokes :P
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23:14:34 <fizzie> That's a perfectly valid greeting.
23:15:58 <fizzie> No, "moronnääs". My only connotation for "nt" is "no text".
23:16:10 <fizzie> Or Windows NT, maybe. New Technology, was it?
23:16:16 <oklo> i usually greet people with a random syllable if i know them well enough to stop for a chat
23:16:31 <oklo> for people i just greet and walk by, i usually just open my eyes real wide
23:16:33 <fizzie> I usually greet people with "arrr".
23:16:35 <oklo> and stare at them
23:16:54 <oklo> ...some don't understand that's a greeting, i've been told i'm scary
23:17:22 <MizardX> http://paste.eso-std.org/ is broken :(
23:17:37 <oklo> pb.vjn.fi for all your pasting needs
23:18:46 <fizzie> There is quite a lot of those things around.
23:18:53 <MizardX> Was thinking of uploading a new version of my redivider parser. This one isn't limited by the python stack.
23:19:02 <oklo> well it takes 5 minutes to code and everyone has a place to put one int
23:19:07 <oklo> and everyone needs them
23:19:14 <oklo> so i wouldn't say that's surprising
23:19:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes I plan to create a list
23:19:23 <fizzie> I just paste things to .txt files in my ~/www/ ... maybe I should join the new millennnnnium some day.
23:19:29 <AnMaster> the definite guide to five star pastebins
23:19:53 <oklo> vjn.fi/pb is the best i've seen
23:20:05 <oklo> can't imagine a better one really
23:20:14 <ais523> http://vjn.fi/pb <--- ais523 gives themself a link to click on
23:20:25 <nooga> i do not have left eye
23:20:42 <AnMaster> nooga, is that random or a true statement?
23:21:00 <oklo> syntax highlighting isn't that useful
23:21:08 <AnMaster> for competent syntax highlight of erlang
23:22:04 <oklo> heh i read "enjoy your paste"
23:22:11 <oklo> hmm. not sure that would've been weird
23:22:21 <oklo> probably would
23:22:43 <nooga> wind + broken glass killed my eye!
23:23:06 <oklo> are you serious?=
23:23:21 <oklo> i thought that was a pirate joke
23:23:37 <nooga> i look like a pirate now
23:23:47 <oklo> is it like, officially broken?
23:23:49 <nooga> but probably they will manage to repair that
23:24:03 <nooga> but it fscking hurts
23:24:12 <oklo> i've always said the wind is of the devil.
23:24:56 <nooga> i was just walking down the street during this ff.... hurricane
23:25:00 <oklo> that lisp pastebin doesn't give you the link, huh?
23:25:33 <oklo> oh, you have to give a nickname
23:26:10 <oklo> that's the problem with pastebins, i just want to share stuff as quickly as possible, almost every pastebin has their own useless additions.
23:26:15 <oklo> that's just stupid
23:27:12 <oklo> i was contemplating buying me a pair of those big glasses snowboarders use
23:27:27 <oklo> because my eyes hurt for hours after being in the wind for a wihle
23:27:44 <oklo> and third random topic, fizzie, how went the talk?
23:28:19 <oklo> did you get to strip naked?
23:28:33 <oklo> did you start with "moronnääs"?
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23:28:51 <nooga> i can't aim right keys on the keyboard
23:28:57 <oklo> i should try doing something. i've been doing nothing all day
23:30:22 <oklo> there was some experiment where this guy used some kinda oculifiers to turn the world into a mirror image, then lived through that for a month and learned to operate perfectly with it
23:30:25 <oklo> i want to try that
23:30:51 <fizzie> oklo: No stripping, no "moronnääs" (although the location would've been appropriate for that, I guess); actually there was nothing especially interesting about how it went. Not too much people in the audience, pretty much only the other presenters and a couple of random colleagues of theirs.
23:31:21 <oklo> fizzie: did you get moneys?
23:31:35 <oklo> olsner: it's a greeting used in a town in finland
23:32:04 <olsner> this town has its own greeting?
23:32:18 <oklo> olsner: all towns have their own words
23:32:35 <fizzie> oklo: No. Well, I did get to count it as a work-day. I don't think people usually tend to pay for seminar-presentation-style talks; real lecture-style things are a different matter, of course.
23:32:48 <oklo> nooga: i suggest learning sentences you can write with your keyboard :P
23:33:39 <oklo> fizzie: what is it you do for work if you don't mind my curiousity?
23:33:42 <oklo> nooga: it's hyvää päivää
23:34:00 <oklo> my ä's look weird, nnscript just won't learn.
23:34:33 <fizzie> oklo: Speech recognition research, pretty much.
23:34:35 <oklo> nooga: in hyvaa paivaa, all the a's have umlauts
23:34:59 <nooga> but i was too lazy to open char map
23:35:02 <olsner> without the umlauts it's just gibberish :)
23:35:48 <oklo> surprisingly easy to read considering finland very rarely has any link between a's and ä's
23:35:52 <nooga> in Polish internet speak almost nobody uses ąóńćęłżźś
23:36:18 <fizzie> oklo: The slides for today's (well, yesterday already) thing are at http://zem.fi/~fis/tampere08.slides.pdf but I guess they don't make much sense without the presentation part.
23:36:31 <nooga> sometimes it becomes hilarious
23:37:03 <oklo> so far so good
23:37:08 <oklo> The \standard" mel-frequency cepstral coecient (MFCC)
23:37:09 <oklo> based feature extraction is relatively sensitive to noise
23:37:13 <fizzie> 'ä' and 'a', or 'ö' and 'o' are pretty different sounds.
23:37:21 <oklo> HUH? please repeat that i must have misheard
23:37:29 <olsner> polish is weird... way too many 'sz'-sounds
23:37:35 <fizzie> Heh, seems like there's a "ff" ligature there.
23:37:55 <oklo> fizzie: i doubt that'd make much sense to me with the presentation either ;)
23:38:08 <olsner> 'ffi' unless coefficient is misspelled in the original text :)
23:38:32 <oklo> dunno if you actually require me to know something about the standard mel-frequency cepstral coefficient
23:38:46 <fizzie> Everyone there was speech people, I didn't much explain the basics.
23:38:53 <nooga> "zrób mi łaskę" means "do me a favour", but "zrob mi laske" (which should mean the same) means "do me a blowjob"
23:38:55 <fizzie> MFCCs are explained later on, though.
23:39:44 <fizzie> For some values of "explained", anyway.
23:40:02 <olsner> nooga: heh, maybe you should asciiize your orthography :)
23:40:09 <fizzie> It doesn't mention what's the point, but...
23:40:18 <oklo> window the input signal into overlapping frames
23:40:23 <oklo> so, you have some string as input
23:40:28 <oklo> and you kinda cut it into pieces
23:40:30 <oklo> but they overlap
23:40:41 <fizzie> Well, it's audio data what we get as input.
23:40:51 <oklo> i was just generalizing
23:41:19 <olsner> like, wroclav -> vrotswaf (obviously the choices are arbitrary though)
23:41:21 <fizzie> Yes, we cut something like 16 millisecond frames out of it, and for each frame advance the starting point by 8 ms, so they end up overlapping.
23:41:34 <oklo> estimate the log of the amplitude spectrum... what's the definition of logarithm for a spectrum..?
23:42:08 <fizzie> It's just the logarithmic value for the amplitudes.
23:42:21 <nooga> olsner: wrocław, it is
23:43:04 <fizzie> The word "cepstrum" is a bit funny, though.
23:43:05 <olsner> yeah, it doesn't end with a 'v' ... don't know where I got that from
23:43:11 <oklo> what does it mean
23:43:19 <fizzie> It's sort-of the inverse of "spectrum".
23:43:30 <fizzie> So the "spec" part is reversed to "ceps".
23:43:33 <oklo> yeah okay that would've been one helluva typo
23:43:39 <nooga> i woult write it something like vrotslaf
23:43:43 <fizzie> And filters in the cepstral domains are called lifters, for the same reason. :p
23:43:48 <oklo> maybe possible if writing the text as a befunge program outputting it
23:43:58 <olsner> a 'cepstrum' is a spectrum transformed back into the time-domain?
23:44:45 <nooga> i should go to sleep
23:44:49 <fizzie> olsner: Well, it's the log-amplitude spectrum transformed again; it's not exactly "time-domain" any more at that point.
23:45:17 <fizzie> Oh, and the "X axis" in the cepstrum is the quefrency. :p
23:45:30 <oklo> whose terminology is this?
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23:45:47 <fizzie> Just see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cepstrum for example.
23:45:57 <fizzie> There's liftering and quefrency mentioned.
23:46:09 <fizzie> I'm not sure if there are other punny names.
23:46:53 <fizzie> I haven't seen "alanysis" anywhere, though. Well, except that wikipedia article.
23:47:03 <olsner> "the power cepstrum (of a signal) is the square of the Fourier transform of the logarithm of the squared magnitude of the Fourier transform of a signal"
23:47:54 <fizzie> In MFCC's the log-spectrum is first warped to the Mel scale, which is a sort-of a perceptually motivated logarithmic thing.
23:47:54 <oklo> zifzie is an epsech ocergnition eserarcher
23:48:25 <fizzie> I think the original Mel scale was derived by playing sine tunes to people and having them to classify which are "equally distant".
23:48:56 <fizzie> And then approximating that a bit.
23:49:11 <oklo> people who have trouble hearing notes right?
23:50:22 <oklo> it's just a logarithmic scale +- failure to hear notes right, in case you know anything about music
23:50:41 <oklo> well i guess it's not about how much you know
23:51:16 <fizzie> It's what "sounds" equally distant; and it's supposedly not logarithmic through the whole frequency range.
23:51:55 <oklo> hmm. i would just tell them the interval, not sure what equally distant could mean apart from that :P
23:52:00 <olsner> I'm getting curious... maybe I should rebuild my haskell spectrum analyser into a cepstrum alanyzer
23:53:11 <oklo> well, guess if it were log scale +- small error, it would not be mentioned there
23:53:37 <fizzie> It's just that from a given a frequency X, the "distance" between (X/2, X) and (X, 2*X) doesn't necessary sound like it's the same.
23:54:01 <fizzie> Or so they tell me, anyway. Haven't done any listening tests myself.
23:54:23 <oklo> if i hear X/2 and X, i hear an octave. i'm assuming most people do, even though they may not have a name for the interval
23:55:14 <oklo> if i hear X and 2X after that, i hear another octave, unless the notes get too high to hear right, but i doubt that's where it's supposed to start deviating from log scale
23:56:39 <oklo> but maybe the western note system isn't a very natural one, and people who aren't fluent in it have the more natural system
23:57:28 <oklo> of course i guess i could just wp it
23:57:41 <fizzie> The wikipedia article is not terribly informative.
23:58:07 <fizzie> Anyway, the approximation of Mel scale used by everyone is completely logarithmic, so...
23:58:51 <oklo> hmm. i want some coke
23:59:10 <oklo> ...wow i just realized something
23:59:10 <fizzie> The original formulation (if I recall correctly) had a linear part for low (<500 Hz) frequencies, and then logarithmic above that; supposedly it's related to how the ear does it's magic.
23:59:37 <oklo> if i went out, and bought coke, NO ONE COULD STOP ME :D
23:59:52 <oklo> i can just do it
23:59:55 <oklo> life is awesome
00:00:04 <fizzie> If you can find a place to buy it from that's open.
00:00:25 <lament> that's half the piano keyboard
00:00:37 <fizzie> It's low in the sense that it's "not high".
00:00:44 <lament> (which is tuned logarithmically)
00:00:54 <lament> nobody ever tunes things linearly
00:00:59 <oklo> well i may agree with the incredibly low or high ones being out of the log scale
00:01:29 <oklo> i recall making basic programs that played linear scale near there
00:01:44 <oklo> it definitely didn't sound like it was linear
00:01:51 <oklo> and i didn't know shit about music then
00:02:05 <fizzie> They just gave people a comparison tone, and asked them to adjust another one to be half as high.
00:02:27 <fizzie> Non-musicians, I would guess.
00:03:18 <oklo> well maybe musicians who don't know shit about frequencies
00:04:06 <oklo> but wtf, "half as high", i'm not sure that'd make any sense to me if i didn't know that meant an octave.
00:04:56 <oklo> i'd probably think it's impossible because you can get as low as you want
00:05:10 <fizzie> Alternatively people were asked to divide a frequency range to "equally large" regions.
00:05:21 <oklo> i might be content with approximating half of one interval
00:05:39 <fizzie> It's so very difficult to live outside the campus area; all papers are "buy this article for $19 since you don't have a subscription".
00:05:50 <fizzie> Should set up the proxying stuff some day.
00:07:28 <fizzie> There seems to be an ICASSP paper from 1999 whose abstract says they "investicate the often made remark that there are two regions to the Mel scale, the first region (" but then it cuts off and the full text is only available for a fee.
00:08:04 <oklo> well that's prolly the gist of it.
00:08:40 <fizzie> "We show that there is no evidence, based on the experimental data points, that there are two qualitatively different regions or that the lower region is linear and upper region logarithmetic."
00:08:47 <fizzie> (Started a browser with X forwarding.)
00:08:58 <fizzie> Heh, it's a very widely distributed rumour, then.
00:09:57 <oklo> nothing like that fits my intuition the least bit, and i know nothing about sound; would say that's a pretty weird rumour.
00:10:14 <fizzie> Apparently the points aren't exactly logarithmic either, and it's mostly just a matter of how do you want to approximate it.
00:11:08 <oklo> how did you get the rest of it?
00:12:24 <fizzie> I started a browser at one of the computers inside the campus, used their IEEEXplore submission to get the full text.
00:12:55 <oklo> that's some serious hacking right there
00:13:30 <fizzie> Basically seems like they've taken the data points from the original Mel paper (from the 1940s) and noticed that since there's a whole pile of curves that fit the points, you can't really say much more than that it's not linear, it's not logarithmic, and it can be numerically approximated with various functions.
00:14:24 <fizzie> This is a lot of discussion to be having for slide #3, since the whole presentation has something like 17 of 'em. :p
00:14:48 <oklo> yeah i'm sure the presentation was like this too
00:15:01 <oklo> really i'd forgotten context loooong ago
00:15:22 <fizzie> Actually it went really fast; we were running a bit late at that point, so I skipped most of the boring parts.
00:15:36 <olsner> how does this 'mel' scale correlate with the greenwood function btw?
00:16:40 <fizzie> Not sure; that's of course the physiological justification for it. That "position in the ear" thing is a logarithmic approximation too, right?
00:18:07 <olsner> yeah, greenwood is log (1 + f / a) / k, just with different constants
00:19:22 <fizzie> What happens after the cochlea is probably far less understood than the "just a simple matter of physics" part.
00:21:03 <fizzie> There's quite a lot of speech recognition research that's been motivated by "it seems as if humans do it sort of like this, a bit, maybe"; it's a bit of a buzzword nowadays.
00:21:45 <fizzie> Personally I think half of those people just want any convenient excuse to go stick electrodes into brains.
00:22:19 <olsner> heh, it's a convenient idea that by just mapping the raw data onto what's been measured from sensory organs you'll get something profound and/or easily analyzable
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00:28:56 <oklo> hmm. now i kinda wanna go buy some coke. but i'd have to do it.
00:28:59 <oklo> fizzie: fungot
00:29:29 <oklo> *please, fungot
00:30:28 <ehird> oklo: the drink or the drug
00:30:58 <oklo> this time i'll leave it for guesswork
00:31:06 <ehird> oklo: i assume the latter, for "do it"
00:31:21 <oklo> ehird: assume what you wish, big boy
00:31:36 <oklo> (for reference, your nick is longer than mine)
00:31:44 -!- oklo has changed nick to oklopol.
00:31:55 <ehird> oklopol: rename yourself to ok
00:31:57 <oklopol> and god it smells like pee here
00:32:12 <oklopol> the dog pees everywhere, and i don't wanna sweep it up all the time
00:32:29 <oklopol> that's another thing i'd have to do for it to happen
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00:34:19 <oklopol> first of all, i need to check if you've tampered with ^bool
00:34:28 <oklopol> so don't mind my small-scale flood here.
00:34:42 <fizzie> I was just at Tampere, it's very likely that I've been tampering.
00:34:50 <oklopol> should i go buy some cokers?
00:35:14 <ehird> oklopol: which kind of coke, i ask again
00:36:17 <ehird> due to his unresponsiveness I shall assume that oklopol will return on cocaine.
00:36:22 <oklopol> hmph, the dog was sleeping so sweetly, and now i'm gonna leave and she'll be waiting for me face squeezed against the wall :<
00:36:33 <ehird> he might be buying that
00:37:12 <oklopol> that does take some of the fun away, i have a lot of compassion for lesser creatures
00:37:37 <oklopol> LIKE DOGS, BOTS, POLITICIANS AND WOMEN
00:41:05 <ehird> you can have 0.4 marriage, he said.
00:41:35 <fizzie> I is the sleep now; night.
02:28:29 <oklopol> i think i should be a sleep too, now
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07:15:55 <psygnisfive> theres a wonderful proof by dewdney of the nonexistance of a TM that solves the halting problem
07:17:13 <Slereah> Turing's proof is pretty meh.
07:19:17 <Slereah> Lemme check, I don't remember too good
07:19:29 <Slereah> First of all, it's not about the halting problem
07:19:39 <Slereah> Because his original specs was not halting.
07:20:27 <Slereah> He had two types of symbols. Symbols of the first kind (usually numbers), that are part of the final result
07:20:44 <Slereah> And symbols of the second kind, which are... not. They're markers and such.
07:20:57 <psygnisfive> ok well heres dewneys Devilmachine example
07:21:22 <Slereah> A circular machine writes down a finite amount of symbols of the first kind, a circle-free machine does not.
07:21:37 <Slereah> The halting problem is hence how to know if the machine is circular.
07:21:42 <psygnisfive> suppose that we have a mean H, that can decide whether or not a machine T will halt on some input i
07:21:57 <Slereah> Are you going to feed H in H?
07:22:00 <psygnisfive> you do this by giving H a description dT of the machine T
07:22:15 <psygnisfive> (no, not H, another machine derived from it, hold on :P)
07:22:45 <psygnisfive> so if T halts on i, H goes into 1 and halts
07:22:53 <psygnisfive> if T doesn't halt on i, H goes into 0 and halts
07:23:31 <Slereah> Yeah yeah, I know the oracle machine
07:23:36 <Slereah> Now make with the proof :o
07:23:50 <psygnisfive> now suppose we derive a second machine, DM, build from H
07:24:12 <psygnisfive> such that it has one input, a machine description, which becomes dT and i
07:24:27 <psygnisfive> for the version of H that is wrapped up inside of DM
07:25:01 <psygnisfive> and now suppose we also change 1 so that when DM transitions to 1, it unconditionally transitions back to 1, looping around on forever
07:25:40 <psygnisfive> if DM halts on dDM, then it'll go into state one, and thus it'll loop forever
07:25:58 <Slereah> I think I lost you at H that is wrapped up inside of DM
07:26:58 <psygnisfive> by adding a "copier" onto its inputs, so that the copier takes dT and duplicates it, putting it as the dT and i of the inner version of H
07:27:37 <psygnisfive> its just a machine that is exactly like H, only dT and i are always identical
07:28:02 <psygnisfive> and you also add an infinite loop to state 1
07:28:11 <Slereah> Wait, what is the dT in question?
07:28:21 <Slereah> What machine does it describe
07:28:36 <psygnisfive> psygnisfive: you do this by giving H a description dT of the machine T
07:28:46 <psygnisfive> given some machine description, and an input i
07:28:53 <psygnisfive> it determines if the described machine halts on i
07:28:54 <Slereah> Why are you talking to yourself
07:29:15 <Slereah> What IRC program are you using?
07:29:43 <Slereah> 'cause they usually have <psygnisfive>
07:30:21 <psygnisfive> asking, will DM halt on its own description?
07:30:30 <psygnisfive> if H says yes then this is what happens in DM:
07:30:54 <psygnisfive> DM takes dDM as input, and because it has an inner copy of H, the inner copy of H should ALSO say yes
07:31:20 <psygnisfive> but DM has an infinite loop on state 1, so DM cannot halt on its own input, if H says it will
07:31:35 <Slereah> I think that's pretty much Turing's proof.
07:31:40 <psygnisfive> so maybe H will say no, DM wont halt on its own input
07:32:00 <psygnisfive> if thats the case H will go into 0, meaning so will DM, and 0 is a halting state for DM
07:32:20 <psygnisfive> so either way, H is wrong, and this machine, DM is possible if H is possible
07:32:29 <psygnisfive> thus since DM is not possible, H is not possible
07:33:26 <Slereah> But I think it's the proof of Turing, apart from the letters.
07:33:53 <psygnisfive> all i know is, in class the professor had multicolored chalk
07:34:12 <Slereah> It's a machine D, that when given the standard description of a machine M, test if M is circular, and mark the SD with u, otherwise with S.
07:34:29 <psygnisfive> and the diagram for DM was purple and orange and green and there were all sorts of swirlies here and there representing arbitrary input and stuff
07:34:42 <psygnisfive> so it looked psychedelic and demonic and appropriate for a machine named the Devil Machine
07:35:51 <Slereah> I think I see where theproof is different
07:36:08 <Slereah> Turing applied it directly to the problem of the extension of the computable numbers.
07:45:30 <Slereah> Also : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beard_Liberation_Front
07:45:37 <Slereah> I'm afraid I must declare holy war on you
07:57:14 <Slereah> Do you like disembodied beards?
07:57:24 <Slereah> Like Le Chuck's beard in Monkey Island 2
07:58:42 <psygnisfive> i have to say, im not impressed by the 2001 beard of the year
07:58:51 <Slereah> What if I sort of shaved my balls, except on the bottom
07:58:56 <Slereah> So that they have a little beard.
07:59:17 <Slereah> Then I can put on a face with a marker
07:59:43 <Slereah> I would slap you with my penis.
07:59:59 <psygnisfive> its an interesting thing that people wish facial hair have no chance in american politics on a large scal
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08:00:33 <Slereah> What about ABRAHAM LINCOLN
08:00:55 <psygnisfive> i think roosevelt was the last bearded president
08:01:17 <Slereah> Didn't he have a moustache.
08:01:25 <Slereah> I'm pretty sure Obama has a ball beard though.
08:04:20 <Slereah> There's too much presidents with the same name.
08:04:37 <psygnisfive> theres only two pairs of same-named presidents in american history :P
08:04:42 <Slereah> Good thing Hillary wasn't elected
08:05:18 <psygnisfive> the bushes, the roosevelts, and the .. other guys from the beginning
08:05:41 <Slereah> John Adams and... Quincy Adams?
08:05:56 <Slereah> I mostly know my US Presidents from the Animaniacs song.
08:06:40 <Slereah> http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvy0wRLD5s8
08:08:05 <psygnisfive> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Andrew_jackson_head.gif
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13:48:01 <oklopol> i don't know if psygnisfive's is turing's proof, but that's the common one, except there's usually less wrapping and descriptions.
13:51:46 <ehird> http://clisp.cvs.sourceforge.net/*checkout*/clisp/clisp/doc/Why-CLISP-is-under-GPL I love the "Is that what you want?" line. rms is and always has been a fear-mongering person who cannot handle people with other views on commercial software. His position on the linking is totally ridiculous ... he could probably claim that every program on my system must be licensed under the GPL with that.
13:52:05 <ehird> I wish I was cynical enough to call his sudden change of heart mind control. :-p
13:53:06 <oklopol> i don't understand how you people can keep track of pop culture so well, i have no idea what rms means
13:53:16 <ehird> richard m stallman, creator of the gnu project and gpl.
13:53:24 <ais523> Richard Stallman is hardly pop culture...
13:53:36 <ehird> note: last two may be personal opinion
13:54:05 <oklopol> well i know stallman, i'm not *that* much out of the looper
13:54:13 <ehird> quick, forget stuff
13:54:42 <oklopol> well as ais523 said, as long as it's not pop pop culture, it's okay, it's just not not okay if i *don't* know.
13:55:33 <oklopol> what's that kind of a mistake called?
13:56:05 <oklopol> i use terms that show something implicitly, and the implicit parts have inconsistency
13:56:21 <ehird> !(pop pop culture) =>
13:56:21 <ehird> & ((not know) => OK)
13:56:59 <oklopol> (OK ((not (pop pop culture)) => (not know))
13:57:12 <oklopol> (OK ((not (pop pop culture)) => (not know)))
13:57:26 <ehird> (OK (not (pop pop culture))
13:57:36 <ehird> (OK (not know (not (pop pop culture))))
13:57:42 <ehird> that's what you said
13:57:48 <oklopol> no no that's not right, i was just copypasting yours :P
13:57:53 <oklopol> let's try predicate logic.
13:58:48 <oklopol> (forall X)(okay(pop_pop_culture(X) ^ know(X)))
13:59:59 <ais523> where ^ equals AND, or XOR?
14:00:09 <oklopol> "as long as it's not pop pop culture, it's okay, and it's not not okay if i *don't* know." (forall X)(okay(pop_pop_culture(X) ^ know(X))), then emphasis on (not (not (okay(pop ... know(X)))))
14:00:25 <ehird> ais523: and, it's predicate logic
14:00:37 <ehird> oklopol: that's wrong
14:00:44 <oklopol> well no wonder that looks wrong :)
14:00:45 <ehird> it's okay if (it's pop pop culture and I know it)
14:01:00 <ehird> soo you need an extra not there
14:01:01 <oklopol> yeah my predicate logic thing has a copypaste error
14:01:09 <ehird> (forall X)(okay(not(pop_pop_culture(X)) ^ know(X)))
14:01:23 <oklopol> i meant the more popular pop culture
14:01:38 <oklopol> i then quickly forgot what that meant and started getting confused
14:02:07 <oklopol> now let us start over having learned from these past mistakes
14:03:52 <oklopol> "as long as it's not pop pop culture, it's okay, and it's not not okay if i *don't* know." (forall X)(okay((((not pop_culture(X)) ^ (pop_pop_culture(X))) ^ (know(X)))))
14:04:30 <oklopol> the second sentence is just gravy, and the first and in the predicate logic is linguistically a "but"
14:04:56 <oklopol> and once again i have the two pop cultures the wrong way around :P
14:05:10 <oklopol> i conjecture i cannot achieve consistensy in terminology
14:06:06 <oklopol> but yeah if you swap those, it should be fine
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16:12:52 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm currently working on conditional fingerprints
16:12:59 <ais523> what do you mean by that
16:13:05 <ais523> fingerprints which are included in some builds not others
16:13:14 <AnMaster> basically: A fancy name for adding an #if around the fingerprint
16:13:19 <AnMaster> so it can depend on checks in cmake
16:13:30 <AnMaster> if we don't have ncurses skip TERM
16:14:11 <AnMaster> also my fingerprint managing scripts are looking about as messy as ick's old main() now.
16:14:30 <AnMaster> including a ad-hoc "generate fingerprint list for man page"-mode
16:15:02 <AnMaster> I should probably split out the common code (parse *.spec files) into a separate file
16:28:46 <AnMaster> ais523, hm a question that I suspect you may know the answer to:
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16:29:06 <AnMaster> what if you have a C file that is empty?
16:29:14 <AnMaster> apart from possible whitespace
16:29:42 <ais523> all files have to have at least one declaration in
16:30:01 <AnMaster> ais523, ok, then what if the C file isn't empty, but everything is in an #if ... #endif that evaluate to false
16:30:09 <AnMaster> logically it would be empty after the pre-processor then
16:30:29 <ais523> write int foo; and it becomes legal
16:30:49 <AnMaster> ais523, gcc complains for truly empty files but not ones that are empty due to everything being iffed out
16:31:29 <ais523> an extension, but an obvious one
16:31:33 <AnMaster> ah I know a better way to solve it, include the global header before, it contains some typedefs
16:32:14 <ais523> I can't remember the exact wording
16:32:21 <ais523> comp.lang.c are good for this sort of thing, I find
16:32:46 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, I'll take a look at the C99 spec. I guess.
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16:40:55 <AnMaster> ais523, hm from now on I fear that libick_ecto_b98.a won't compile without adding a few HAVE_*. At least HAVE_random, HAVE_srandom and HAVE_clock_gettime
16:41:15 <AnMaster> so I should probably try to get the script integrated with your build system
16:41:17 <ais523> hmm... maybe we can write fallback libraries
16:41:43 <ais523> if srandom isn't there
16:41:46 <ais523> provide our own version
16:42:00 <AnMaster> and for clock_gettime() I fall back to gettimeofday()
16:42:32 <AnMaster> Since I try to be POSIX.1-2001 + _POSIX_MAPPED_FILES + strdup
16:42:46 <AnMaster> strdup and srandom/random are XSI
16:43:21 <AnMaster> (which is a superset of POSIX, XSI is required for a system to be Unix however, see SUSv3)
16:43:43 <AnMaster> oh and all those except srandom/random are mandatory in POSIX.1-2008
16:44:11 <AnMaster> but that will be at least a few years before I start depending on the 2008 edition
16:47:33 <AnMaster> btw, IFFI will not need an update for the conditional fingerprint bit due to both versions 1.2 and 1.3 of the fingerprint spec format are supported atm, since 1.3 only added an optional line (%condition:...)
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16:56:13 <AnMaster> ais523, in English, if you put a whole sentence within parentheses do you put the . before or after the ) ?
16:56:30 <AnMaster> such as (This is a whole sentence). or (This is a whole sentence.)
16:56:45 <ais523> well, the . is inside the parens
16:57:05 <ais523> the basic rule is that the sentence needs to be punctuated correctly if you remove everything inside the parens
16:58:10 <AnMaster> hrrm, what bash version do you have? (echo $BASH_VERSION)
16:58:57 <AnMaster> I had to change the version needed for gen_fprint_list. Well I could rewrite it to avoid that construct but it would be a bit more work.
16:59:46 <AnMaster> before it needed 3.1 or later, but now it needs 3.2.10 or later (due to a known bug in earlier versions)
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17:20:20 <ehird> <Rodney> nigga (Wiz Gno Mal Neu), 44 points, fell into a pit
17:20:24 <ehird> Insert obvious joke.
17:22:26 <ehird> black people can't do anything? :P
17:26:31 <oklopol> i should get me something to eat don't you think
17:26:48 <fizzie> You seem to be always getting things; first coke, now something to eat.
17:26:50 <ais523> eat a floating eye corpse
17:27:20 <oklopol> http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=3262169
17:27:31 <fizzie> But beware, you might feel a strange mental acuity.
17:28:18 <ehird> oklopol: so what kind of coke was ita gain?
17:28:20 <ehird> you never admitted.
17:28:58 <ehird> 'cuz this is #esoteric.
17:29:02 <ehird> my logic is flawless
17:29:16 <oklopol> if it's the drug kinda, then i'm admitting i'm a criminal, if it's the boring kind, that's just a boring confession.
17:29:31 <oklopol> in addition to which, this keeps the mystery up, and mysteries are nice
17:30:21 <Asztal> I cracked my copy of linux genuine advantage
17:30:30 <oklopol> are you criminal in ways that aren't accepted by the public?
17:30:35 <AnMaster> ais523, eating dragons is fun too
17:30:37 <ais523> Asztal: I never downloaded it, it seemed the best way to me
17:30:44 <ais523> ehird: it exists, look it up
17:30:58 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a program
17:31:01 <ais523> someone made as a joke
17:31:10 <ehird> exactly, it's a joke
17:31:11 <ais523> it works the same way as WGA
17:31:13 <ehird> that's not AnMaster territory.
17:31:16 <ais523> just you can uninstall it
17:31:21 <ais523> as one of the many ways to get around it
17:31:26 <ais523> it's also easily hacked
17:31:29 <ais523> especially as it's open source
17:31:40 <ehird> http://www.linuxgenuineadvantage.org/source/
17:32:09 <ehird> <oklopol> are you criminal in ways that aren't accepted by the public? <-- prolly
17:32:30 <oklopol> piracy is accepted by most people
17:32:43 <ehird> depends on the definition of people :P
17:33:09 <oklopol> okay finnish people and ircers from other countries.
17:33:12 <ais523> the even funnier thing about LGA is you actually have to pay them money to get it to work properly
17:33:18 <ais523> or else change the name of the server, I gues
17:36:15 <oklopol> but fizzie, you are right, i am a getophiliac. may i should get help... or more like find it, might be more helpful.
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17:38:05 <ais523> unfortunately, they had to explain it was a joke in the FAQ
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17:38:20 <ais523> along with giving a crack to remove it themselves, just in case someone had tried to run it and got locked out
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17:49:04 <ehird> I want a computer that sucks at power saving.
17:49:10 <ehird> [[ http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7f07k/its_so_cold_that_i_have_to_compile_ghc_to_heat/ ]
17:49:20 <ais523> you could just put a busyloop in the background
17:49:22 <ais523> it comes to the same thing
17:49:33 <ehird> nope, this computer is never hote
17:49:46 <ehird> it's stone cold on the outside, unless i'm using like all of the two cores
17:49:50 <ais523> this one doesn't seem to get hot, but warms the desk underneath it
17:49:54 <ehird> in which case there's minimal heat coming out of the fan
17:50:00 <ais523> and two cores? just put two busyloops in the background
17:50:02 <ehird> on the bottom of the monitor
17:50:10 <ehird> which is the cpu too...
17:52:42 <ehird> $ perl -e 'fork; 1 while 1'
17:52:45 <ehird> ^ i notice nothing.
17:52:51 <ehird> well, things are lagging a bit.
17:52:55 <ehird> but still freezing.
17:53:09 <ais523> ehird: write it as fork, 1 while 1, that would be a lot more fun
17:53:30 <ais523> because the fork is inside the while loop
17:53:43 <ehird> { fork, 1 } while (1)
17:59:25 <ehird> but ais523's is more subtle
18:00:12 <nooga> subtle forkbomb yea
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18:01:09 <Asztal> there's an intel tool (TAT, I think) which can really raise the temperatures
18:01:25 <ais523> there's powertop too, which can really lower them
18:02:06 <GregorR> Then there's flamethrowers, which are more effective than TAT or prime95.
18:02:08 <ehird> http://dagobah.biz/flash/dotact2.swf
18:02:32 <nooga> think about a coal basin
18:03:36 * GregorR thinks intently about a coal basin.
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18:05:03 <Azstal> I'm starting to think this motherboard isn't as unscathed as I thought it was... :(
18:05:30 <nooga> i am cold, without an eye, ill and bored
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18:06:41 <nooga> srop thinking about coal basin;
18:06:45 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal.
18:06:51 * ehird srops thinking about coal basin
18:07:21 <nooga> stop thinking about coal basin;
18:08:03 * GregorR waits intently for the rest of that sentence.
18:08:16 <oklopol> srop waiting and do soemthing!
18:08:42 <GregorR> http://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogg
18:08:58 <nooga> i waited for an error message :C
18:09:16 <nooga> or rather error massage
18:09:39 <nooga> typos happen, when you have only one eye active
18:09:47 <ais523> what happened to the other?
18:11:15 <nooga> it was deactivated and corrupted by rubbish flying with wind
18:11:24 <nooga> glass, to be precise
18:16:30 <nooga> the transistor placement algo is still driving me mad
18:16:43 <nooga> i'm too stupid to figure it out correctly
18:16:53 <nooga> and then i explode with anger
18:33:28 <AnMaster> ais523, slight change to cftoec.sh to be able to support last cfunge revision. pushed that change to same place as before
18:34:17 <AnMaster> no clue if you can merge that patch out of order
18:39:26 <oklopol> ehird: that's a pretty stupid game
18:39:33 <GregorR> ehird: I'M NOT TWITCHY ENOUGH FOR LEVEL 24
18:39:51 <oklopol> ehird: it's trivial and uninteresting
18:40:04 <ehird> oklopol: no its fun
18:40:19 <GregorR> oklopol: Clearly you've played precisely level 1 and went BLEH DIS SUX LAWL
18:40:33 <ehird> Yeah on further levels it gets interesting
18:40:36 <ehird> e.g. the flip-level orbs
18:40:45 <ehird> and the water+lava+flip combinations
18:40:52 <oklopol> GregorR: i played seven levels through
18:41:22 <GregorR> ehird: Calling them "orbs" is a bit of a misnomer :P
18:41:30 <oklopol> but that's simply a boring concept, if there's seriously something interesting or hard in the puzzles somewhere, i can retry.
18:41:42 <oklopol> but the problem with puzzles is, they are usually trivial.
18:41:48 <ehird> oklopol: it's fun and hard to get it fast enough
18:41:51 <ehird> and it gets mor einteresting
18:42:18 <oklopol> there's not much room for improvement, it's just micro-optimization
18:42:33 <ehird> Shut up until you play it properly :P
18:44:31 <fizzie> I played that thing up to level 42, but then I gotzted bored.
18:45:40 <ehird> left, right, space
18:45:42 <ehird> that's all you get
18:45:53 <fizzie> You can do 'down' in water.
18:45:55 <oklopol> well that's a bit retarded
18:46:00 <ehird> oklopol: no, it's not
18:46:14 <fizzie> And you can abort in the middle of the level, yes. If that's what you mean with "kill".
18:46:18 <oklopol> it's not very fun to wait for four minutes to die.
18:46:23 <ehird> i thought you meant
18:46:33 <fizzie> It's the "pause" key, but I forgot already which one.
18:46:38 <fizzie> Then you can select 'continue' or 'end'.
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18:47:56 <GregorR> puzzlet is a small puzzle, he should be able to clear this right up.
18:49:57 <GregorR> I love the cheesy 8-bit music btw.
18:51:09 <ehird> stage 15 is ... trivial
18:51:45 <fizzie> They all up to 15 were pretty much trivial.
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18:52:30 <fizzie> Since you're all talking about it, I'd probably go a few levels further, but it already forgot where I were, and I don't feel like replaying all those.
18:52:35 <ehird> GregorR: I restarted.
18:52:43 <oklopol> lol i actually died at level 14
18:53:05 <fizzie> It could have some sort of passwordy thingie. Or maybe it has, who knows.
18:53:13 <fizzie> So I could continue where I left off.
18:54:37 <ehird> click on the comments
18:54:40 <ehird> it has a list of all the cods
18:55:05 <oklopol> okay 16 had a teensy bit of innovation
18:56:04 <fizzie> It wasn't that bad. Especially since the \-slope was just "keep -> pressed".
18:57:21 <GregorR> That's what I tried the first time and I hit a wall.
18:57:25 <GregorR> I just tried it again and it worked.
18:57:38 <oklopol> okay 17 was harder than the whole game put together
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19:00:29 <ehird> how do you do it???
19:00:57 <fizzie> And 24 had a time of 1; that was easier.
19:01:30 <fizzie> The 0 time is not completely instaneous, but I think it needs a "jump to the roof and bounce" type of thing, it's not fast enough to fall down.
19:03:05 <GregorR> Level 36 is difficult ... but that's just because the precise timing of the tall lava blocks is not my cup o' pigs snot.
19:05:02 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/level46.png
19:05:08 <fizzie> I'm not sure I have the patience for this one.
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19:09:37 <oklopol> the only hard things i've seen sofar have been one-pixel slots where you need to have absolute precision.
19:09:44 <oklopol> that's not a very interesting type of hard.
19:10:33 <fizzie> oklopol: Did you look at that lvl46 screenshot? that seems to be exactly what this is. Although the comments part say something undecipherable.
19:11:44 <fizzie> You can run past it, the guy doesn't have time to fall down.
19:12:13 <oklopol> well yeah that looks pretty hard.
19:12:17 <fizzie> It's just a single jump plus -> key pressed to the end of the level.
19:12:44 <oklopol> but if the movement is this simplified, i definitely don't want puzzles that rely on having mastered it.
19:13:07 <oklopol> well okay that's the kind of puzzle i can live with
19:13:27 <oklopol> a good puzzle is about having learned the game mechanics and being able to exploit that
19:14:54 <fizzie> This was the only such one so far. :p
19:15:41 <oklopol> GregorR: yeah 34 was pretty evil, i needed two attempts.
19:15:59 <oklopol> because i accidentally hit space after climbing the wall
19:16:38 <oklopol> GregorR: where are you now?
19:20:05 <oklopol> i might be fine with 37 being the first level of the game with 150 sec less time.
19:21:58 <fizzie> These are getting more annyoing; didn't like 51, 52 at all.
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19:26:54 <oklopol> well i didn't like the game in the first place
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19:27:35 <oklopol> in 42 you can't see the guy when jumping up on the pillars, that's probably the hardest part of the game sofar
19:28:04 <oklopol> most levels i haven't really even hard time to look at, i just press a few buttons and they're done
19:28:39 <oklopol> also a serious complication is having space as the jump key, i instinctively go to shift
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19:34:37 <oklopol> fizzie: 45 can be done, right?
19:36:07 <oklopol> i probably spend more time in the menu than in the game
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19:48:02 <oklopol> fizzie: where are you now?
19:48:40 <fizzie> 64. I suck at this stuff; and this one is annoyingly complicated too.
19:51:52 <GregorR> OK, level 41 was bizarrely easy.
19:52:18 <oklopol> okay 54 was goddamn annoying
19:52:41 <oklopol> GregorR: 4X was bizarrely easy
19:53:02 <GregorR> The music for 42 is unnecessarily dark.
20:00:20 <GregorR> Offscreen jumping makes Gregor angry.
20:06:20 <oklopol> GregorR: yeah i complained about that too
20:06:28 <oklopol> but that's pretty much the hardest part of 4X
20:06:39 <fizzie> oklopol: 66. I is slow.
20:08:31 <fizzie> Okay, 67; 66 was fast.
20:15:20 <fizzie> I keep messing the final jumps all the time.
20:19:12 <oklopol> i keep failing the trivial fall-and-evade-evil-lava part in 62
20:23:01 <fizzie> I keep dying in this 69 even though it's not really difficult.
20:27:59 <fizzie> I've even gotten all those dots, just not in the same run.
20:28:46 <fizzie> I think I'm getting tired.
20:30:52 <fizzie> I think stage 70 is special, since it's got 999 time.
20:33:00 <GregorR> I would just like to say that this game has the most realistic physics engine I've ever seen.
20:37:01 <fizzie> Okay, ran out of time in the 999-"second" thing. Out of the 2744 dots, had 226 left-over.
20:37:41 <ehird> i got yall addicted
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20:45:19 <fizzie> Heh, heh; this time I got 71 left-over dots of the 2744. I'm not sure I can finish this level; it's boring.
20:45:54 <ehird> fizzie: can you check the code?
20:46:00 <ehird> (at the bottom of the level select)
20:53:49 <ehird> oklopol: you still playin'?
20:54:14 <fizzie> #71 is again one of those 1-second things.
20:55:40 <fizzie> Just jump up-left so that you bounce to the blue dot faster than just falling down.
20:55:55 <ehird> ... 24 is the holocaust
20:56:24 <fizzie> And for the record, 71 is pretty close to 45 except that the right side is lava so you need to first safely touch the bottom, then move right under it.
20:57:03 <fizzie> Gah, 72 is another one-seconder.
20:57:50 <fizzie> It starts on top of lave, you need to immediately move one pixel right; that column has a two-pixel space, then one pixel of lava and the blue one is above that, and roof immediately on top so you usually can't hit it.
20:57:58 <oklopol> ehird: GregorR got me addicted.
20:58:12 <ehird> oklopol: but i linked to it first.
20:58:52 <fizzie> What, no! 73 is yet another one-seconder, this time with two blue dots. These are getting boring.
20:58:56 <oklopol> ehird: yeah, so? it was indirect
20:59:51 <fizzie> And 74 is a two-seconder.
20:59:57 <fizzie> With three dots. Hate.
21:01:21 <fizzie> And 75 is a zero-seconder. Heh, heh. They should stop with these and soon.
21:02:01 <ehird> fizzie: the game hates you
21:02:03 <fizzie> (With a red dot thing.)
21:03:00 <ehird> they should put all of them together
21:03:03 <ehird> into one massive level
21:03:13 <oklopol> the game hates *me*, fizzie has a lead of 13 levels now :<
21:03:21 <oklopol> i did go to the shop in between tho
21:03:37 <fizzie> oklopol: You'll catch fast when you get to these one-seconders. Although I can't seem to get this 77 done.
21:04:02 <fizzie> My guy is always just rising upwards to the blue dot when it runs out of time.
21:05:12 <ehird> fizzie: bounce off a wall?
21:05:33 <fizzie> 78 is a two-seconder again.
21:06:05 <fizzie> Where you have to navigate a S-shaped path with quite a lot of lava around.
21:06:13 <GregorR> I obviously have to jump, but it won't let me.
21:06:33 <fizzie> 45 didn't take half as many attempts as the latter 0-seconder. For me, anyway.
21:06:55 <GregorR> GEE SUDDENLY THAT WAS EASY
21:07:32 <ehird> I decree stage 50 to be argh
21:08:11 <fizzie> 50 wasn't that bad, although I dislike all the water-jumpery ones.
21:08:27 <GregorR> 46 needs twitchy timing, doesn't it ;P
21:08:50 <fizzie> You just need to land the first opening, then you can keep -> pressed.
21:08:58 <ehird> that one is hilarious
21:09:39 <fizzie> That's why the call it a puzzle.
21:09:40 <GregorR> I didn't realize you could get any distance over a pit without jumping.
21:10:03 <fizzie> Hey, it's got that realistic physics.
21:10:10 <fizzie> Sure you can just run over pits.
21:13:38 <fizzie> Or 12, but the two first are eaten immediately.
21:13:50 <fizzie> It's a 3x4 box full of dots.
21:14:41 <fizzie> 80 is another 2-seconder, with a green flipper. That one has the code 246-810.
21:15:32 <fizzie> This one is very very annoying, because the flipping animation takes so long.
21:16:20 <GregorR> The water levels were always my least favorite in Super Mario :P
21:17:53 <fizzie> I think my progess will stop at this 80; I've been doing these 0-2-second levels by simply iterating a gazillion times, but this one has the forced flipping animation in the beginning, and I don't have the patience to watch that.
21:19:07 <fizzie> 50 isn't so bad, because the later water tiles don't really work like water.
21:21:41 <fizzie> Okay, I'll let oklopol to do the ones after #80, because he's better with the whole "obsessing over things" part. This flipping animation is just too annoying.
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21:33:59 <oklopol> 68 is fun, like 4 minutes of triviality, then a hard part where i always die :P
21:34:14 <oklopol> granted, the ending is just the beginning backwards, but i have more pressure.
21:34:53 <fizzie> What was 68, the one with the four "towers" to climb?
21:36:21 <fizzie> 22:15:11 < fizzie> I keep messing the final jumps all the time.
21:37:08 <fizzie> The silly "zero to two" second sequence starts at 71, you'll hit it soon.
21:37:34 <fizzie> But I took ages and ages to do 69.
21:37:43 <ehird> Hey, who wants to watch a program play nethack?
21:37:52 <ehird> Telnet to nethack.alt.org, select watch, and find ehirdtaeb/
21:38:28 <fizzie> I think a Nethack AI was one in the list of "proposed programming projects" in our Prolog course.
21:38:39 <ehird> This one is 30,000 lines of Perl.
21:38:45 <ehird> Apparently the people working on it are good at nethack. :P
21:40:05 <fizzie> Ooh, stage 81 has 55 seconds.
21:40:18 <fizzie> A welcome break from the monotonicity of it all.
21:41:53 <oklopol> well i've gotten half-way through
21:41:56 <fizzie> I started with it, because it was the hardest one.
21:42:02 <fizzie> I did it very very very carefully.
21:42:20 <oklopol> fourth isn't too hard, second i haven't tried but looks easy, first one can't be failed
21:42:36 <oklopol> except i probably will fail it when i get to it after the three others, because i get all shaky
21:42:52 <fizzie> You can jump upwards if you're standing right on the edge (it'll push the guy sidewards a bit), so the only difficult bit is getting the "entering the notch" part done without hitting lava.
21:43:37 <fizzie> This #82 has water that doesn't slow the dropping speed at all. Otherwise it works just like regular water.
21:43:55 <ehird> DIED AT THE END OF 68
21:44:38 <ehird> fizzie: code of 82?
21:45:14 <fizzie> 863-506, although it's not that far from 80.
21:48:01 <fizzie> I did have to try it multiple times; the fast-dropping water was a bit tricky.
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21:51:49 <fizzie> I dislike time-limited ones most of all, and these all have quite a little bit of time.
21:52:03 <oklopol> i still haven't passed the third pipe, even.
21:52:33 <oklopol> i still often fail the first jump, and there are 8 of them.
21:53:04 <fizzie> I don't think ehird's done 69 either? Go do it, it's fun.
21:53:55 <fizzie> The one with the four pipes to climb; much like an earlier one but with lllava.
21:54:01 <oklopol> this is quite a lot of work just to be able to tell people this game sucks without having to take crap about not having tried the fun levels.
21:54:17 <ehird> oklopol: but you like them
21:55:08 <oklopol> i like what? yeah i've liked a few levels more than the rest
21:55:17 <oklopol> but one level of fantasticcontraption > this whole game sofar
21:55:23 <fizzie> The "STAGE X" title screen and background seem to be changing from green towards red... maybe that can be used to deduce the amount of levels.
21:56:19 <fizzie> I can't seem to get this #85 done in the allocated time.
21:56:27 <oklopol> i can deduce it's either 100 or 256 without any info!
22:02:15 <fizzie> Have I mentioned I don't like time limits? #87 would be pretty easy if I had time to be careful, but I don't.
22:03:34 <oklopol> okay i know how to do 69 now
22:06:28 <fizzie> It wasn't that difficult; I think my third or fourth real attempt worked.
22:06:39 <fizzie> Friggin grngrgnrgr #88. All these later ones have strict time limits.
22:15:56 <fizzie> At least 89 didn't have a bad time limit. 90 again has.
22:18:22 <fizzie> These have the sort of time limits that when climbing up a ledge, you need to bounce off immediately; if you actually stop and stand on the ledge, you run out of time.
22:20:13 <fizzie> Maybe I should actually stop. I was already going to stop at #80.
22:21:15 <oklopol> well okay i needed three attempts.
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22:21:35 <oklopol> if the level is that long, and still you die of not having enough time
22:21:59 <fizzie> Also: #90, I just don't seem to have enough time here.
22:23:01 <fizzie> Oh, that's how it works.
22:23:30 <fizzie> Still not enough, but closer.
22:28:13 <fizzie> And the one single time I seem to be having enough time, I mess up the last jump.
22:31:02 <fizzie> Heh, I was about one pixel above the last blue block, and falling towards it, when I ran out of time.
22:31:26 <fizzie> Okay, I leave levels from #90 on for oklopol to solve. :p
22:31:45 <oklopol> was pretty easy when i did jumping with my right hand
22:31:57 <oklopol> seems it's a biiiiit faster than leftie
22:32:04 <fizzie> Since I'll otherwise lose it somewhere, code for #90 is 883-674.
22:32:45 <oklopol> if i don't get that far level by level, i will stop playing
22:33:22 <fizzie> Whoops, I got #90 done accidentally.
22:33:37 <fizzie> There was a better (and obvious) speed-optimilization there.
22:34:09 <fizzie> #91 doesn't look any better, though.
22:36:29 <fizzie> I completely suck at anything involving water, and #91... well, see for yourselves: http://zem.fi/~fis/level91.png
22:37:34 <fizzie> It's not easy for me, anyway.
22:37:58 <fizzie> Incidentally, I assume the fact that those "seconds" count down at a rate that's something like 2/second is universal and not just a Flash bug here?
22:38:22 <fizzie> Just wanted to confirm.
22:39:06 <oklopol> NO WONDER YOU'RE SO FAR AHEAD YOU'RE CHEATING
22:39:39 <fizzie> Uh... it it actually impossible to enter the number 9 in that code-input screen? It seems to produce just a 0.
22:39:51 <fizzie> So I can't get back to #91 here. :/
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22:40:28 <ehird> other people say the same
22:41:57 <fizzie> It's just the number that doesn't work; you can still enter it with cursor keys.
22:43:56 <oklopol> i mean, you have to jump, and then move both right and left very quickly
22:43:59 <fizzie> Okay, #91 was actually easy, just like ehird said. But #92... well, it's a maze.
22:44:07 <oklopol> now, the jump usually doesn't work
22:44:13 <oklopol> because, well, it's a tight fit
22:44:14 <fizzie> Yes, that is what you have to do.
22:44:36 <oklopol> so i just can't get myself automated on the lower part.
22:45:51 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/level92.png -- now, it might even be not that bad (haven't checked how tight that time limit is), but it looks *boring*.
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22:52:00 <fizzie> Yes, it is a time limit thing. I got 49/55 on my first attempt, where I didn't do any long detours. I assume you need to do things like bounce from the upper wall downwards to fall faster.
22:52:31 <oklopol> that's pretty straightforward
22:52:46 <fizzie> Sure, but I still run out of time.
22:52:54 <fizzie> It's not hard to find the route, no.
22:53:22 <oklopol> you did say the only hard thing is time
22:53:39 <oklopol> well, if i ever get that far, i'll see for myself
22:54:45 <oklopol> is there somekinda trick or am i just slow?
22:55:22 <fizzie> What's impossible about it?
22:56:04 <oklopol> i miscalculated a distance.
22:56:18 <fizzie> You mean you didn't jump from the second stair out from the lava?
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23:03:03 <fizzie> This time in #92 only the two last dots were left uncollected. But I'm getting seriously bored with it.
23:05:28 <GregorR> Finished stage 50 with 0 time left :P
23:08:09 <fizzie> Heh, same two dots left-over; I need some shortcuts. Will stop here.
23:08:37 <fizzie> (I did make a couple of mistakes on the way, so I'm sure it's doable.
23:14:59 <oklopol> GregorR: that happens a lot in 8X.
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23:20:03 <fizzie> oklopol: How's it going?
23:22:16 <fizzie> Right. Well, like ehird said, that one was easy.
23:22:29 <ehird> "so if you're not finding it easy, YOU SUCK"
23:23:11 <fizzie> Although I almost ran out of time because I took the upward slope so carefully, and then had a lot of trouble climbing up the other pipe, due to not having done that sort of thing a lot in the previous levels.
23:23:21 <fizzie> I think I had two seconds left when I hit that last dot.
23:25:09 <fizzie> I would like to know how to do 92 significantly faster than what I've been doing, though.
23:25:50 <oklopol> heh, i just failed @ jumping to the last dot
23:26:16 <fizzie> I got that done on my first try, even though I was so sure I'll mess it up.
23:29:04 <oklopol> for me it's usually first try or fifteenth time...
23:29:47 <ehird> you're all ADDDDDDDDDICCCCCCTEDDDDDDDDD
23:30:26 <Corun> Right between my sound machine
23:30:47 <Corun> On a cloud of sound I drift in the night
23:30:56 <Corun> Any place it goes is right.
23:31:06 <Corun> Goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here.
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23:39:48 <fizzie> Got all, with 12 seconds time left.
23:39:55 <fizzie> Practice helped, it seems.
23:40:09 <fizzie> The next one looks very complicated; not sure how difficult it really is.
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23:43:20 <fizzie> Well, it isn't very difficult up to the final part, but that one's tricky because I sucks.
23:43:55 <fizzie> 036-096; too sleepy to continue, so recording the password hear.
23:45:15 <fizzie> The final part is completely lava, and in the end there's a "room" which has two ~8-pixel rows of blue dots surrounded by a two-pixel lava border; I suck at picking up the blue dots before the red dot effect wears off.
23:50:16 <fizzie> Here is a related picture: http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/05/09/teh-floor-iz-lava1/
23:51:18 <fizzie> Incidentally, before you guys revealed to me that it's lava, I thought the yellow-orange squares were "electricity", since the flashing screen looked like "got zapped" to me.
23:54:24 <oklopol> fizzie: yeah i thought of it as electric fence
23:54:39 <oklopol> i just tend to adapt my terminology, and ehird mentioned lava
23:54:53 <ehird> its probably an electric fence
23:55:02 <ehird> yellow-orange thing in games that kills on impact
23:55:27 <oklopol> i closered the game now, so i hope these "codes" actually work.
23:55:45 * oklopol dances a slight dance for finally catching fizzie
23:55:59 <oklopol> unfortunately i'll probably not be able to play tomorrow
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00:58:29 <fizzie> Oh, and I don't have any offscreen jumping in 42; with my browser there's a large black bar above the actual game screen, and when I jump on top of the poles in #42, the guy goes to that black region and is completely visible.
01:01:04 <oklopol> too sleepy to continue, not sleepy enough to sleep?
01:02:41 <fizzie> About to go to sleep right now, actually.
01:06:13 <oklopol> i was gonna go to sleep :|
02:58:41 <Slereah> I should start writing that simulation program.
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04:54:06 <GregorR> My cat is kneading my face.
04:55:09 <oerjan> i take it you are good at typing without seeing
04:56:20 <GregorR> (I was holding her in my arm)
04:56:42 <GregorR> You don't know how long it took me to write that :P
04:56:55 <GregorR> (She's not kneading my face any more, of course)
04:57:13 <oerjan> i was sort of starting to realize that
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10:01:25 <oklopol> there's not much use for eyes when typing
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12:37:59 <oklopol> those were the options really.
12:38:18 <fizzie> Maybe some more jumping with the game?
12:38:54 <oklopol> i mean, i have like a four hour band training today
12:39:09 <oklopol> it didn't make me play guitar
12:39:18 <oklopol> well i have an argument for that as well.
12:39:32 <oklopol> yeah! right! i need to prove things today!
12:39:44 <oklopol> AND i have like a four hour training today
12:39:48 <fizzie> Yes; go on and prove that you can get past level 93.
12:39:50 <oklopol> so i'll just have a few hours for that
12:40:04 <ehird> oklopol: gimme password
12:40:20 <ehird> go onto the level select
12:40:21 <fizzie> It's there in the level select screen.
12:40:23 <ehird> theres a number at the bottom
12:40:49 <fizzie> I did a half-hearted attempt at 93, but missed one blue dot in the lava room.
12:41:08 <ehird> god damnit, smalltalk/squeak is just too damn productive
12:41:10 <oklopol> was that your first attempt?
12:41:15 <oklopol> i needed a lot of attempts
12:41:20 <ehird> i am solving the HALTING PROBLEM
12:41:23 <ehird> someone relink me to the game
12:41:28 <fizzie> http://dagobah.biz/flash/dotact2.swf
12:41:31 <oklopol> the next few i think i got on the first try
12:41:41 <oklopol> except for one but that was just bad luck
12:41:41 <ehird> man this game is awesome
12:41:54 <oklopol> meh it's a pretty trivial and uninteresting game
12:42:14 <ehird> oklopol: but you're having fun
12:42:59 <ehird> agh 97 is impossible
12:43:53 <ehird> well, you sound it.
12:44:24 <ehird> all day and yesterday? :P
12:44:56 <oklopol> yes, competing with fizzie is fun. it would be fun to compete with him @ throwing dice and trying to get a lot of 20's. that doesn't make it a good game.
12:45:05 <oklopol> but where did i actually enjoy the game?
12:45:19 <ehird> fizzie: do you find it fun
12:45:35 <oklopol> i have liked a few levels, not sure i've liked *playing* any of them, but some of the levels have been interesting.
12:45:42 <fizzie> Not really, no. I'm just not good at stopping.
12:45:46 <oklopol> and levels generally don't make a game good.
12:46:12 <oklopol> i'm a control/weird perception/reaction/puzzle guy.
12:46:24 <oklopol> although i suck at reaction and i'm not that good at puzzles
12:46:38 <oklopol> i conjecture you have to hate the game to be good at it
12:46:50 <ehird> but it's a good kind of hate
12:48:37 <ehird> the zots only last 1sec
12:49:53 <fizzie> You just need to be good at jumping at the right time.
12:50:25 <ehird> 93 looks pretty ok
12:50:26 <fizzie> This #97 might be easier with autofire on the jump key. :p
12:50:51 <oklopol> if the zots lasted more, that would be trivial.
12:50:52 <fizzie> The zot time is short enough for it to be nontrivial to collect all the blue dots in the lava room of 93.
12:51:39 <ehird> oklopol: but they dont
12:52:14 <fizzie> Title screen of 97 is so red it might even be that they stop at 100.
12:52:28 <fizzie> Or alternatively it starts going toward some other color, since it's been blue-green-red already.
12:53:33 <oklopol> ehird: yes, that just makes it nontrivial, it's still not very hard
12:56:02 <fizzie> Level 46 is #005011, level 91 is #502000, and 92 is #501d00; based on that it could well hit #500000 at level 100 or so.
12:59:55 <oklopol> okay 97 is pretty hard. and it's the good kind of hard, because hardness is distributed pretty equally
13:00:06 <oklopol> (also happens with time limits but they're annoying)
13:04:50 <ehird> which one was the one that looked really hard but was just a single hold?
13:10:46 <fizzie> Okay, there seems to be a separate set of levels 101-108; they appear in a list of their own. (No, I didn't play that far, took a peek at the flash bytecodes.)
13:11:56 <fizzie> They also don't have separate passwords; once you do level 100, you get that list of 101-108.
13:12:16 <fizzie> Since ehird probably wants them codes, 086-754 gives the 101-108 list, while 809-936 gives the 1-100 list.
13:14:43 <oklopol> i'm fast enough, but not consistent enough
13:15:06 <oklopol> actually i'm not sure i'm fast tnough
13:19:46 <oklopol> ehird: if i get that far, i will
13:20:06 <fizzie> Those levels seem to be mostly for fun.
13:20:33 <fizzie> 105 has 2002 seconds of time, and is just a picture of a cat or something.
13:21:13 <ehird> are really fucking hard
13:22:12 <fizzie> Well, they're sort-of optional; when you get past 100, you see them all.
13:22:51 <fizzie> 102 is a decorated version of that nasty 98, where the path to climb is the stem of a flower. :p
13:23:27 <ehird> nope, 102 has antigravity
13:24:00 <fizzie> Well, sure there's some water down there from where the flower grows.
13:24:07 <fizzie> But the actual meat of the level is that climbery.
13:24:19 <ehird> there's more gravity than usual
13:24:39 <fizzie> Didn't notice; at least it's not too much more.
13:24:50 <ehird> .oklopol you will hate 99
13:25:43 <fizzie> Heh, hadn't looked at 99 yet.
13:26:10 <fizzie> I think it will need some serious route-memorization. Fortunately I don't have to play through these.
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13:34:33 <oklopol> bleh i'll do 98 later tonight.
13:34:38 <oklopol> need to leave right about now
13:35:51 <ehird> smalltalk is awesome
13:36:26 <oklopol> does the christian god see thoughts?
13:37:26 <oklopol> there was this kid who made a cypher for god to solve.
13:38:01 <oklopol> i'd say that was a pretty fun idea, that young kids usually aren't very original
13:38:07 <oklopol> dunno if that was his own idea.
13:38:12 <oklopol> but anyway, we're trying to decypher it now.
13:38:22 <oklopol> would give you to you, but it will decypher into finnish, so...
13:38:32 <ehird> oklopol: showwwwww
13:38:34 <oklopol> vddl rbt cliks nt psd klhsm atfo
13:38:45 <oklopol> i've tried all letter-to-letter substitutions
13:38:56 <ehird> oklopol: it's random typing.
13:39:28 <oklopol> maybe. that's a risk i'm willing to take
13:39:55 <oklopol> random typing based on what?
13:40:05 <ehird> oklopol: have you tried ALL letter-to-letter substitutions?
13:40:07 <ehird> i.e. not just ROTs
13:40:09 <oklopol> based on kids being idiots?
13:40:17 <oklopol> all letter-to-letter substitutions
13:40:23 <ehird> and, umm, i doubt a 7 year old would come up with a decent cypher :P
13:40:47 <oklopol> when i was that age, all i did was come up with cyphers and alphabets
13:40:54 * oklopol had a pretty good memory back then
13:41:47 <oklopol> i guess i'm a bad example, yes, but i am *an* example
13:41:56 <oklopol> anyway there might be a solution
13:42:11 <oklopol> and i want to find it if there's one
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13:42:55 <oklopol> have to try more algorithmic approaches later tonight
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14:01:32 <Mony> do you speak french ?
14:02:30 <Mony> bah, tu peux résider en France juste pour les vacances en fait, et donc être anglais :p
14:03:02 -!- ehird has set topic: NO FRENCHIES ALLOWED IN THIS CHANNEL (<-- complete lie).
14:03:27 <ehird> complete lies are very important.
14:03:45 <Mony> i think we have to be discret here :-°
14:03:56 -!- Slereah has set topic: (complete lie -->) (<-- complete lie).
14:04:13 -!- ehird has set topic: (complete lie -->) <-- paradox --> (<-- complete lie).
14:08:53 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers6/Get_well_kermit.jpg
14:09:07 <ehird> Slereah: grooooooooooan
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14:50:56 <AnMaster> E [23/Nov/2008:15:49:59 +0100] PID 13589 (/usr/libexec/cups/backend/hp) crashed on signal 6!
14:51:05 <AnMaster> can't print and I really really need it
14:51:05 <Slereah> It's the one following signal 5.
14:52:18 <AnMaster> oh it seems dbus had crashed causing everything to malfunction
14:52:25 <AnMaster> yet another reason to hate dbus
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16:15:35 <thutubot> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ...too much output!
16:17:57 <Slereah> Stop it thutubot, you sound like a powerline
16:20:16 <thutubot> BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ...too much output!
16:20:39 * oerjan watches Slereah run from the swarm
16:20:43 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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16:29:13 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
16:29:27 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
16:29:30 <fungot> AnMaster: in various mammals/ uterus graduates from a double organ with two distinct orifices and two passages, as in/ peacock.
16:29:47 <fungot> AnMaster: owing to/ shortness :)/ period, and over/ whole inner surface, sometimes for a shorter time in britain, what a splendid lot :) work you have published some remarks on/ inhabitants :) arakhan admire a broad, thin piece :) pure gelatine, moistened with saliva, solutions :) ammonia, 145,, its action is so plain that i could work into any subject. much attention was paid to learning by heart/ lessons :)/ previous day; thi
16:29:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, why does that one generate so many / ?
16:31:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, err that makes no sense
16:31:53 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
16:31:59 <fungot> AnMaster: c-intercal has a double-oh-seven causing it not to run the `go back', using `make install'. in each case, an array subscript
16:31:59 <oerjan> yes it does, as fizzie has explained several times
16:32:15 <oerjan> it's a bug in the fungot tokenizing code
16:32:16 <fungot> oerjan: e123 program has appropriate licensing terms to allow a possible character set as possible input.) similar considerations apply to array subscripts; see *note retrieve::) is already woven, which will make the distribution ( i.e. the dormant thread, rather than `.pax', which you can enter commands to run
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16:52:53 <oerjan> fungot: whence bathyspheres?
16:52:53 <fungot> oerjan: 14.1.9 ick_get/ setone/ twospot variable or expression mentioned), and the line label is encountered, it helps to enforce good programming style, by discouraging next-stack leaks ( which is the bit-reversal of the statement is encountered, it is also readily available for free for other compilers
17:12:31 <fizzie> Yes, I think I've explained it at least thrice.
17:14:38 <fizzie> The script I build the "darwin" model with filtered out unused tokens, including punctuation; since Darwin never used :) and :(, this caused the two most common real tokens (actually I think it's :) = of, / = the) get allocated the numbers fungot's text generator thinks are still punctuation.
17:14:38 <fungot> fizzie: w450 the documentor is not a `next from', and to allow abstaining from the start). if the optimizer more general, because they have the extension `.cio'; it is named after the start menu then typing `cmd' ( which must be in the `create' syntax in the same name if they don't mix well with `goto'.
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17:15:18 <fizzie> So "owing to/ shortness :)/ period" => "owing to the shortness of the period".
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17:21:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm an idea then would be simply using sed on the model file
17:22:55 <AnMaster> or is it binary? I don't remember
17:23:28 <fizzie> Binary, yes, and not too simple.
17:23:51 <AnMaster> fix the bug and regenerate then I guess :/
17:24:26 <fizzie> It's been fixed for ages, just haven't bothered to rerun; not quite sure what n-gram lengths I used there.
17:24:40 <AnMaster> or have the symbols :) and / encoded in the files instead of hard coded
17:26:12 <oerjan> except that would mean regenerating all the _other_ styles
17:26:18 <ehird> fizzie: what is the code for 1-100 again
17:27:47 <fizzie> Punctuation needs special spacing, that's probably the main reason they're not in the tokens.bin where all the other words are.
17:28:04 <fizzie> Not that the spacing would be correct right now either.
17:29:29 <fizzie> Actually I think the punctuation tokens are in tokens.bin, it's just that fungot's tokens-to-text has a hardcoded "if it's below K, it's punctuation, and here's what to do" code.
17:29:29 <fungot> fizzie: as an argument to unary binary logic operator, or identical subexpressions). this causes the operand to be interesting. this error happens at runtime, as might be produced during the compilation will work, but because modern computers are likely to be a constant originally or because a subscript was too surprised to finish running and the changes you made to `resume' with a naive attempt to continue by some means at tha
17:31:22 <fizzie> I didn't regenerate the Darwin model because I thought no-one cares; of course, by now I've probably spent more time explaining the problem than fixing it would've taken.
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17:37:04 <ehird> stage 95 RAAAAAAAAAAAGE
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19:35:02 <fizzie> Yes, it was rather pointless.
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19:49:58 <psygnisfive> http://blog.jaoo.dk/2008/11/21/art-and-code-obscure-or-beautiful-code/
19:50:11 <psygnisfive> they mention Befunge and Piet within the first 25 minutes! :O
19:51:57 <ehird> deewiant talked about it yesterday morning.
19:52:00 <ehird> and we talked about it.
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20:34:55 <oklopol> psygnisfive: that's pretty old, man.
20:35:30 <olsner> yeah, at least several days old
20:35:42 <olsner> that's like 42 internet years
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20:44:17 <fizzie> Huh? 55 wasn't so bad, compared to some of the others.
20:46:16 <GregorR> I get all the way around and do one of the flips surrounding the blue block, then I get back to the "water" and I can't get from the water to the next brick, I can't get enough momentum to get over there.
20:46:24 <GregorR> So I must be doing something wrong, but I don't know what.
20:46:29 <fizzie> It's just "go under the green dot, jump up, hold right, jump around a bit, drop down to the middle of the green block and keep holding right".
20:47:40 <fizzie> You can just drop down and enter the green blocks from the left, then keep trying to move right; that way you'll eventually get the blue dot.
20:47:57 <GregorR> Gad, it seems so obvious now.
20:48:12 <ehird> code for 55? i forget
20:48:41 <fizzie> Well, that's the one for 100, but you get 55 too.
20:48:49 <fizzie> Maybe you should write it down.
20:49:30 <GregorR> Where does it show the code?
20:49:43 <oklopol> in the state choosering screen
20:49:44 <fizzie> Level selection screen, down there.
20:49:51 <oklopol> can someone solve 99 for me?
20:50:07 <oklopol> i have a solver but i'd have to copy it manually.
20:50:24 <ehird> fizzie: http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/ see, it has your name on
20:50:28 <ehird> you were destined for it
20:50:31 <oklopol> err yeah i made a maze generator once
20:50:45 <oklopol> and naturally made a solver, but that took like 5 minutes
20:50:46 <fizzie> The maze part isn't that hard to do, getting through it in the time limit is another thing.
20:51:19 <oklopol> i can't see the optimal path right away
20:51:40 <fizzie> The latter of my two attempts got me to the bottom-right corner even though I didn't even have the route solved yet, just did some intuitionary things.
20:51:58 <fizzie> That's when I ran out of time, even though it just would've been a simple climb up.
20:52:28 <oklopol> well i could probably solve that without paper, it's just i'm not going to.
20:52:51 <oklopol> well i would solve it, but i thought i'd ask someone first :)
20:53:25 <fizzie> The part that was mostly "guesswork" was just the "well, obviously I need to first climb up this left side, otherwise they wouldn't have put it there like this".
20:54:01 <fizzie> Oh, and there in the middle where there's a long drop, it's obviously "the right route must go up, because otherwise this wouldn't be a great place to accidentally fall down and be unable to finish".
20:54:32 <oklopol> yeah i don't care for psychology
20:54:34 <fizzie> With that sort of logic I don't think I ended in any dead ends in that attempt.
20:55:03 <fizzie> I'm just so bad at jumping off from 1-pixel niches that I'm not going to try to do it fast enough.
20:55:20 <ehird> this game is the best game i have ever played
20:55:54 <GregorR> Boy, 56 sure doesn't SEEM like a time trial but it is.
20:56:35 <fizzie> That http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/ link is to version 1.01; the original you pasted -- http://dagobah.biz/flash/dotact2.swf -- is 1.10.
20:56:41 <fizzie> I don't know what the difference is.
20:58:16 <fizzie> But dagobah.biz seems to be built by someone Finnish, because all the button graphics are in the directory "/painikkeet/" (Finnish for "buttons") and there are some comments like "<!-- Header DIV alkaa -->" and "... loppuu ..." where fi:alkaa == en:starts, fi:loppuu == en:ends.
20:58:38 <ehird> http://dagobah.biz/
20:58:45 <ehird> seems to be an irc channel.
20:58:55 <ehird> Yodan piilopaikasta <- I'm going to assume this means "Yoda pedophile".
20:59:05 <fizzie> "from Yoda's hiding place".
20:59:34 <fizzie> And I did 57 by moving to the right, falling down a bit so I got the blue dot, then immediately moving right back before it's dropped so far that it can't get back on the platform.
20:59:42 <fizzie> Then it's just a single jump to grab those others.
21:00:28 <fizzie> There's not a lot of time for trial-and-error, so I think it took me several attempts.
21:03:58 <fizzie> Zet-time in 47 is a bit too long for it to be challenging.
21:04:45 <ehird> stage 84 is just stage 4
21:04:57 <fizzie> Yes, there's quite a lot of reuse.
21:05:26 <fizzie> Played the first 20 or so levels again earlier today, and there were quite a lot of the later ones with lot more zot-time and lot less lava.
21:06:29 <fizzie> Never played through that one, since I stopped at 93.
21:07:57 <ehird> how long does the last 93 zot last?
21:09:44 <fizzie> A long time, but not so long that it'd be easy to pick all blue dots.
21:11:06 <ehird> this game hates everybody
21:11:57 <fizzie> Didn't we just talk about 57 some ten lines ago?
21:18:03 <GregorR> 58 is easy to screw up in stupid ways :P
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22:35:36 <fizzie> AnMaster: Haven't worked on it lately; there was that trip, and then that silly-ass game.
22:35:39 <ehird> fizzie: There's a "random mode" to that jap game.
22:35:46 <ehird> In this mode, the dots have been randomly scattered on the course.
22:35:46 <ehird> After you reach the right goals. Score at the time as the time remaining will be added.
22:35:47 <ehird> In the next level, the height of the goal when you started.
22:35:47 <ehird> Dot every level rise, decreased the number of weapons, an increasing number of DENGEKIDOTTO reversed.
22:35:49 <ehird> Over time, or numbness in the fall or when the game is over.
22:35:51 <ehird> In this mode, the Internet is a corresponding ranking.
22:35:53 <ehird> Third option, it seem.
22:36:25 <ehird> The ranking doesn't seem to load, though.
22:36:35 <fizzie> http://dagobah.biz/flash/dotact2.swf which has been about the only topic here today and yesterday-evening.
22:37:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, also just ignore such games
22:37:43 <ehird> Ooh,I found the prequel.
22:37:50 <ehird> http://offgao.no-ip.org/game/dotact/
22:38:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, feel free to, but that's what I've been doing instead of jitfunge.
22:38:56 * ehird tries to complete original game
22:39:02 <ehird> oklopol: 50 more levels :P
22:39:13 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's not as if my purpose in life is to be entertaining to you, you know.
22:39:27 <ehird> AnMaster is objectively right.
22:39:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, I just claim that flash games are boring
22:39:58 <AnMaster> ^ul (ehird, I never claimed what fizzie said)S
22:39:58 <fungot> ehird, I never claimed what fizzie said
22:40:13 <ehird> Joy, now I need to ignore fungot too.
22:40:13 <fungot> ehird: w018 that was modified with `maybe' is generally insignificant in intercal normally) is the name of a space of time to get compiler warnings, and such an apparently non-standard format is being dimensioned by assigning dimensions to them; see *note grouping rules
22:40:26 <ehird> Shame; it's nice apart from the 'ignore-evading' thing.
22:40:48 <AnMaster> ^ul (Hah, you abused that first, remember?)S
22:40:48 <fungot> Hah, you abused that first, remember?
22:41:20 <AnMaster> ^ul (Your own fault then *shrug*)S
22:41:20 <fungot> Your own fault then *shrug*
22:41:34 <fizzie> I could add the "nick: " prefix to all fungot's output, not just the chattery.
22:41:34 <fungot> fizzie: there are certain steps that can handle expressions even if the variable or variables mentioned lower down the stack, and selecting 1 from the left command has not finished; `coming from' in the first interpretation is the recommended technique for creating a statement, although i haven't figured out what it does, try reducing the number of variables. (').
22:41:43 <ehird> fizzie: Could your perhaps make it not let arbitrary people write to the channel?
22:41:58 <AnMaster> I would suggest blocking ehird
22:42:05 <AnMaster> as he put himself into this position
22:42:11 <AnMaster> I would never had done it if he hadn't
22:42:25 <AnMaster> nor do I have any plans to do it except to point out what he did
22:43:05 * ehird read the logs out of curiosity. So AnMaster is suggesting blocking me from fungot because AnMaster is using it to evade my ignore of him.
22:43:05 <fungot> ehird: second, the attempt will silently fail ( just like you can load a debugger ( such as `,3 sub 4 5'). the solution is to allow a possible character set as possible input. ( this is the name of the array, it is documented.
22:43:07 <ehird> I... see that logic.
22:43:26 <AnMaster> very simple, you did it before several times
22:43:45 <AnMaster> so if you want it to ignore me then you should also be ignored
22:44:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I don't think such a prefix is needed
22:44:32 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
22:44:39 <fungot> AnMaster: which scheme book are you reading news through google? :) btw, i found a new spot?" a: " i tried todo a ¬_¬ then" " but not sure
22:44:56 <fungot> AnMaster: you just did. unsatisfiedlinkerror." " oh, we have lots of euros in comps like 1200 localtime, ends fnord.
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23:13:15 <ehird> http://offgao.no-ip.org/game/dotact/
23:13:41 <oklopol> i was searching the logs for that link
23:14:04 <oklopol> i saw it when skimming the logs, now realized i kinda want to see the differencers
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01:58:37 <GregorR> Stage 64 has me forgetting what direction gravity goes.
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05:24:53 <thutubot> dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig ...too much output!
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06:02:26 <thutubot> ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff ...too much output!
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12:06:30 <oklokok> can you gimma the pw for level 100 again :D i don't really feel like stopping @ 98
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12:07:26 <fizzie> And 086-754 for them specialities.
12:08:29 <oklokok> i'm not sure i'll ever even look at them
12:31:46 <ehird> how goes the original version
12:46:32 <oklokok> the levels are much less interesting
12:47:18 <ehird> GregorR: play the prequel so oklokok does
12:49:54 <oklokok> then i died and thought it'd be a nice spot to give yp
12:59:46 <fizzie> You did more than I; I don't think I played more than four levels of the original one.
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16:59:46 <AnMaster> What on earth should L (roll) in FRTH do when the first popped argument is negative
17:00:19 <AnMaster> "crash" is wrong answer, but from a quick look at my code I suspect I do that currently
17:01:34 <Deewiant> install a Forth and see what it does.
17:01:37 <oerjan> um what does L do for a positive arg?
17:02:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, well it is a RC/Funge-98 fingerprint so not well defined. So yet again I reverse engineered CCBI for that
17:02:36 <oerjan> if it's rotation of n stack elements, then i suggest -n should rotate them the opposite way. that may even be what forth does.
17:03:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: neither do I. Doesn't prevent you from looking up a simple tutorial to see the syntax and then typing "1 2 3 4 -2 ROLL" or whatever
17:04:01 <oerjan> so if n takes the nth element and moves it to the top, -n should move the top element to place n
17:04:25 <AnMaster> ok I don't crash I get memory errors
17:04:44 <Deewiant> -n takes the nth element and moves it to the top, but going via the bottom? ;-)
17:06:04 <AnMaster> pick ( a0 .. an n -- a0 .. an a0 )
17:06:27 <AnMaster> roll ( a0 .. an n -- a1 .. an a0 )
17:06:45 <oerjan> right, about what i thought it was
17:06:46 <AnMaster> almost looks like RC-Funge specs
17:06:47 <Deewiant> essentially: pick copies the nth, roll moves the nth.
17:07:01 <oerjan> pick -n actually might want to do from the bottom
17:07:20 <oerjan> sort of like python list indexing iirc
17:08:09 <oerjan> hm i guess you _could_ do that for roll too. is there an opposite operation to roll?
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17:09:01 <oerjan> if not, having the -n work opposite of n is too useful to drop i think
17:09:42 <AnMaster> well *checks what rc/funge does*
17:10:37 <ehird> if it's forth and does shit with memory, a negative argument will make it opposite memory the other way than it's meant to
17:10:41 <oerjan> ideally you would want an operation that shifts top n of stack m places
17:10:47 <ehird> that thing doesnt have much safety features
17:11:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm not sure what rc/funge does... the code is so messy and hard to read.
17:12:18 <AnMaster> just not with a small enough integer
17:12:34 <AnMaster> it probably memset() the stack in advance or something
17:14:01 <Deewiant> you don't have to read the code to know what it does, just run a test program :-P
17:14:17 <Deewiant> anyhoo, Factor at least complains if it's negative
17:14:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes indeed. but I did with -1 and it didn't crash.
17:15:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: whether it crashes or not is system- and time-of-day- and various-other-things-dependent
17:15:29 <Deewiant> if it does an invalid memory read/write various things can happen.
17:15:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ccbi? well I can't check with valgrind since I get "valgrind: wrong ELF executable class (eg. 32-bit instead of 64-bit)"
17:16:23 <Deewiant> it'll probably crash loudly if it does something wrong :-P
17:16:25 <ehird> valgrind is the answer to everything.
17:16:50 <Deewiant> yes, I run init(8) under valgrind just to be safe!
17:16:58 <AnMaster> also valgrind can tell you if it is off by one or such :P
17:17:16 <ehird> also the only binary on my system is nethack.
17:17:34 <ehird> valgrind is part of nethack
17:17:43 <ehird> which includes an OS
17:17:50 <ehird> it merged with emacs and firefox a while back.
17:17:56 <ehird> also, it recompiles every program _on usage_
17:17:59 <ehird> for speed and control
17:18:13 <ehird> if they don't meet my stringent programming guidelines, it wipes it from my system.
17:18:34 <Deewiant> and that's why you've only got nethack? ;-)
17:18:52 <Deewiant> (Which, by the way, has notoriously crap code)
17:19:12 <AnMaster> having looked at nethack's code I would be quite surprised if it didn't crash under valgrind
17:19:14 <ehird> Deewiant: no, i use AnMaster's clone of nethack.
17:19:22 <ehird> it's written in befunge-98 and uses remarkably clean code.
17:19:26 <ehird> every character is commented
17:19:34 <ehird> it's indented with indent(1)
17:19:38 <ehird> and it uses all funge-108 features
17:19:44 <ehird> and requires its posix optimizations to run fast.
17:19:48 <ehird> truly a beautiful thing.
17:19:55 * ehird quietly vomits to the side ->
17:20:00 <Deewiant> haha, I wonder what indent(1) does to Befunge
17:20:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, isn't indent only for C+
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17:20:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well also valgrind *is* useful to find memory corruption.
17:22:38 <Deewiant> http://audacious-media-player.org/ :-/
17:23:35 <ehird> Deewiant: it tells yo what you need to know 'bout the ostfware!
17:27:05 <AnMaster> well I commited a fix for cfunge now
17:27:15 <AnMaster> it will now reflect on negative arguments to L and P
17:27:36 <AnMaster> ccbi doesn't reflect but nor did it crash in my test
17:27:50 <AnMaster> better check that to make sure
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17:30:00 <Deewiant> I think it pushes 0 but I'm not sure
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17:41:06 <Deewiant> Just test it and see what it does to the stack :-P
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18:02:47 <oerjan> oh no his stack asplode
18:03:31 <ehird> oerjan: keep it pg 13
18:06:31 <oerjan> well i guess someone should, just for the variety
18:12:16 <MizardX> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/314864/how-to-generate-a-mandelbrot-with-t-sql :)
18:12:39 <ehird> and a ripoff of a daily wtf article
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19:04:21 <AnMaster> hm is it "some code have been ..." or should it be "some code has been ..."?
19:05:03 * oerjan is pretty sure code is singular
19:05:18 <AnMaster> some code, some car? some cars?
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19:05:52 <oerjan> or rather, code is a mass noun in that meaning
19:07:48 <AnMaster> that leads to an interesting question oerjan
19:08:07 <AnMaster> do you just "assume" in general? Or something specific?
19:08:31 <AnMaster> yes I know what it means in English. But it is a horrible language construct IMO
19:08:52 <AnMaster> you would expect "I assume <something>"
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19:34:06 <GregorR> pgimeno: Depends on what you want to know :P
19:34:54 <pgimeno> GregorR: I finally did it: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/orkdemo.php
19:35:23 <pgimeno> it runs all examples except orkipple (but that's hard to debug)
19:36:37 <pgimeno> GregorR: also, some of the pages in codu.org don't work
19:36:58 <GregorR> pgimeno: It just went down last weekend and I've been rebuilding it. Examples?
19:37:48 <GregorR> Aware of that, but SourceForge fucked it up so that'll take a while to come back.
19:38:08 <GregorR> (Along with all the other SF projects ... I'm moving them all to Codu now)
19:38:10 <pgimeno> apparently the pages made in giki are the ones failing
19:38:28 <GregorR> SourceForge deleted all the persistent files X_X
19:38:29 <pgimeno> guess it's a problem with the data dir
19:39:06 <GregorR> Sort of makes me wonder what "persistent" was supposed to mean.
19:39:38 <AnMaster> <pgimeno> GregorR: I finally did it: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/orkdemo.php
19:39:51 <GregorR> Anyway, I got a SliceHost account, so I now have absolute control muahahaha
19:40:23 <AnMaster> pgimeno, what one is ORK now again
19:40:27 <pgimeno> AnMaster: an awesome "natural-looking" language written by GregorR
19:40:29 <AnMaster> name sounds familiar but I can't place it
19:40:45 <pgimeno> "There's a scribe named Will" and so.
19:41:07 <ehird> GregorR: why did you reinvent the wheel with giki? :P
19:41:18 <AnMaster> GregorR, I find the language Shakespear quite fun
19:41:19 <GregorR> ehird: I didn't, I based it on another Wiki I had been using.
19:41:30 <AnMaster> GregorR, even more so when acted out in real life
19:42:05 <AnMaster> about half way through a history of programming languages
19:42:16 <AnMaster> watched it just two days ago or so
19:43:08 <pgimeno> GregorR: there are a few bugs in the current ORK, e.g. cat is doubly broken (both on the program and on the interpreter side)
19:44:19 <pgimeno> and the quine is broken too
19:44:58 <AnMaster> someone got a formal grammar for it?
19:45:38 <pgimeno> AnMaster: wish I had... the spec is so incomplete that I had to rewrite parts already done quite often while writing the interpreter
19:46:15 <AnMaster> pgimeno, basically I can't figure out the rules for it
19:46:23 <pgimeno> (sorry GregorR but it would have helped a lot to have one)
19:46:29 <AnMaster> the examples on the wiki just look like English
19:46:34 <pgimeno> AnMaster: it's modelled closely after C++ objects
19:46:43 <AnMaster> and obviously not *every* English line can be valid
19:46:50 <AnMaster> or syntax check would not be possible
19:47:08 <AnMaster> and also isn't parsing natural languages considered "AI-complete"
19:47:26 <pgimeno> http://esolangs.org/files/ork/doc/README
19:48:06 <pgimeno> it's not a natural language, the grammar is quite restricted actually
19:48:20 <pgimeno> but it's still so lovely :)
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21:30:02 <nooga> maybe i should quantize surface, assign mass and load to each vertex and treat edges like springs...
21:30:19 <nooga> in order to draw that damn graph the way i would like
21:54:57 <GregorR> So, you're going to rewrite neato(1)
21:59:00 <fizzie> Or fdp(1); there's a lot of them string-like approaches.
22:01:27 <ehird> fizzie: have I mentioned that your usage of "them Xs" amuses me greatly?
22:02:21 <fizzie> I'm not sure how good a habit it is, really, but I can't seem to shake it.
22:07:23 <nooga> GregorR: dot can't do the thing i want
22:10:16 <fizzie> Neato is not dot, though.
22:11:53 <nooga> i bet that neato can't do that anyway
22:12:46 <fizzie> What do you want it to do, then?
22:13:09 <fizzie> It doesn't inherently do a grid very well, but you could probably abuse it.
22:13:26 <nooga> well it won't be a grid graph
22:13:50 <nooga> but just vertices placed on a grid + connections shortest possible
22:16:45 <fizzie> Neato is not good at large (where "large" is not yet very large, something like fungot's 1000-node graph was already pretty painful, and not doable with some node overlap removal algorithms) graphs.
22:16:45 <fungot> fizzie: oops. argh. feeling like cheating to me :) but i didn't see that
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22:21:59 <fizzie> Oh, I'm not sure if you've seen the link.
22:22:03 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png
22:22:04 <fungot> fizzie: well mine was left justified with no additional spaces between words in a language like fnord or message-case or fnord. in turkic languages, it just says hello.
22:22:09 <fizzie> That's with dot; neato was very messier.
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22:36:42 <nooga> fizzie: what this graph represents?
22:42:31 <fizzie> It's fungot's source (few revisions in the past); let's see if I can find some graph that is readable.
22:42:31 <fungot> fizzie: it doesn't specify even any records/ struct types. he just hasn't adapted to people who dont want to create
22:43:16 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/ignore.png has (an old version of) the ignore handling.
22:43:48 <fizzie> It's just a bit of static code analysis, picking up |_ ifs, the 'w' compare instruction, 'j' jump tables (with a simple heuristic) and maybe something else too.
22:44:16 <fizzie> Then it generates the basic blocks of the code and writes those as linear strings of Funge instructions, and builds that graph out of them.
22:48:15 <nooga> was fungot written by hand?
22:48:15 <fungot> nooga: in canada, they've ruled against caffeine in ' fnord'
22:49:13 <fizzie> Sure, I don't know of any compilers that would generate sensible-looking code.
22:52:45 <nooga> but maybe some software aid
22:53:03 <ehird> befunge isn't hard
22:53:36 <fizzie> It's not easy, but it's by any means hard for an esolang.
22:53:45 <fizzie> fungot's written in Vim, anyway.
22:53:45 <fungot> fizzie: that is pure marketing.
22:53:59 <fizzie> fungot: Shush, I'll get them to buy licenses or something.
22:54:00 <fungot> fizzie: i think there's a very limited area in fact.
22:54:13 <fizzie> fungot: What do you mean? Everyone wants a fungot!
22:54:13 <fungot> fizzie: if you don't find a solution to the first argument
22:54:29 <fizzie> Very uncooperative bot, that.
22:54:40 <nooga> where's the source?
22:54:53 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
22:54:54 <fungot> fizzie: musta on aika väärin, ettei jotkut ihmiset tajuu irkkaa 24/ 7 on his phd thesis
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22:57:14 <nooga> it looks like nice noise
22:57:16 <fizzie> That was a bit of Finnish there.
22:58:07 <fungot> ehird: lament sent it if i'm right, you're still here, i'd add to that set? hm. i've got it now
22:58:13 <fungot> ehird: as bf interpreted in bf is with a fnord struct, where the voter can't even know for sure
22:58:16 <fizzie> Mixed in with #esoteric and #scheme, there's a tiny bit of ircnet's #douglasadams, which occasionally has had few lines of Finnish.
22:58:52 <nooga> who did that awesome ttd logic thingy?
22:59:14 <nooga> i forgot that it was you
22:59:23 <ehird> What ar eyou talkin' bout?
22:59:33 <fizzie> ehird: Probably http://zem.fi/ttd_logic/
23:02:29 <nooga> what is the language used in section 3.4. The 4-bit adder
23:02:44 <fizzie> It's just some unnamed pseudocode, I think.
23:03:30 <fizzie> It looks a bit like a horrible mixture of MATLAB and C, though.
23:03:48 <ehird> finnish = matlab + c
23:05:16 <nooga> looks as if i could use something like this as an input language for my logic circuit integrator
23:21:52 <MizardX> Heh. When I compile the brainfuck-interpreter from redivider into python code, I get 15467 lines (almost 400kb)
23:28:54 <MizardX> 12k of those lines are the atoi/itoa code.
23:32:48 <MizardX> The redivider source: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Redivider/Brainfuck_Interpreter
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23:36:34 <warrie> Someone say Redivider?
23:38:47 <ehird> MizardX: warrie invented redivider
23:38:52 <ehird> You should show him your redivider stuffs.
23:40:19 <warrie> Hmm, looks like optbot is absent.
23:41:14 <ehird> I'll get him up sometime.
23:41:20 <GregorR> Awesome (generated) color scheme: [["#082E17"],["#DCEBFD"],["#46DE87"]]
23:41:30 <ehird> GregorR: Show in a more human form? :P
23:41:37 <GregorR> ehird: I can't. This is IRC.
23:41:45 <ehird> GregorR: URIs. Use 'em.
23:41:58 <GregorR> Is there an HTML pastebin somewhere? X-P
23:43:06 <ehird> GregorR: Yes, it's called scp.
23:43:15 <GregorR> <html><head><style>body{background-color:#082E17;color:#DCEBFD;};a{color:#46DE87;};</style></head><body>This is a <a href="#">test</a>.</body></html>
23:43:16 <ehird> abuse hpaste's raw feature
23:43:30 <ehird> Due to the ongoing War on Spam, pastes may not contain HTML links. Please remove or obfuscate and try again. (In most browsers, pressing Back will leave the entry space filled in.)
23:43:33 <MizardX> warrie: I wrote the linked stuff at the bottom of http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Redivider ... and now also a redivider -> python compiler
23:43:56 <GregorR> ehird: Just put it in an effing file X-P
23:44:37 <GregorR> Hm, the link didn't show as the right color.
23:45:12 <GregorR> <html><head><style>body{background-color:#082E17;color:#DCEBFD;};a:link{color:#46DE87;};</style></head><body>This is a <a href="#">test</a>.</body></html>
23:45:45 <GregorR> <html><head><style>body{background-color:#082E17;color:#DCEBFD;} a{color:#46DE87;}</style></head><body>This is a <a href="#">test</a>.</body></html>
23:45:49 <nooga> redivider looks nice
23:46:14 <ehird> GregorR: or just }a{
23:47:28 <nooga> gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa iiiii neeeed fooooood
23:51:03 <olsner> your noms are missing the 'n's
23:52:19 <Corun> Your nom chain is missing the initial om
23:53:17 <Corun> (That's different to "applies", btw)
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00:10:15 <pgimeno_> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/colortry.php?c[]=082E17&c[]=DCEBFD&c[]=46DE87
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00:36:57 <GregorR> I'm writing Variations on the Annoying Nokia Theme
00:37:21 <pgimeno> I'm afraid that one is from spanish origin
00:37:43 <pgimeno> any pointers on the Variations?
00:40:03 <pgimeno> "the Nokia ringtone [...] is based on Trrega's Gran Vals." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_T%A1rrega
00:40:09 <pgimeno> "the Nokia ringtone [...] is based on Trrega's Gran Vals." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_T%C3%A1rrega
00:44:51 <GregorR> Well, mine is jazzy, his probably wasn't :P
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02:30:46 <oklokok> i got by beat up by pizza delivery guys, discuss
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03:38:37 <pgimeno> <pgimeno> GregorR: there are a few bugs in the current ORK, e.g. cat is doubly broken (both on the program and on the interpreter side)
03:38:50 <pgimeno> I meant on the *compiler* side, sorry
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04:55:48 <pgimeno> GregorR: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/orkspec.txt - any omissions?
04:58:55 <bsmntbombdood> http://lbrandy.com/blog/2008/11/the-hardest-test-i-ever-gave-c/
04:59:53 <bsmntbombdood> he get's all snarky about paying attention to detail and then: "void main(int)"
05:09:38 <psygnisfive> pgimeno: might i suggest using that-relative clauses instead of which-relative clauses? they feel more natural
05:10:05 <pgimeno> psygnisfive: example please?
05:10:13 <psygnisfive> An ape can have a neighbour which is an ape.
05:10:18 <psygnisfive> An ape can have a neighbour that is an ape.
05:11:47 <pgimeno> psygnisfive: oh sorry, the language is already defined by GregorR, it's just that the specs are not as complete as desirable. That is not a new spec.
05:13:20 <pgimeno> off to bed, I'll read any response after some sleep
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05:47:59 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood: it doesn't? i thought c++ lets you skip the names of arguments if you don't use them.
05:48:27 <oklokok> (which is the reason declarations don't have them, they have no body)
05:48:39 <oklokok> well yeah, right, main takes two arguments.
05:49:21 <oklokok> i was basically just assuming you were wrong and finding a reason why ;)
05:56:08 <oklokok> i don't get #5, how is that hard, is there a trick?
05:56:18 <oklokok> This is the solution, y = 3 evaluates to true
05:57:26 <oklokok> i mean, that's like the first thing each and every c++ tutorial teaches, "=" doesn't check for equality
05:59:14 <oklokok> err, if someone doesn't see the quotation marks in the bonus, they are either blind, or not programmers.
06:00:32 <oklokok> also i hate that guy already, "this test i made ooohh it's so hard just look at how cool it is"
06:02:19 <bsmntbombdood> you should have seen the programming classes at my highschool
06:02:38 <bsmntbombdood> i went to the room to work on a computer one day while they were in class
06:04:34 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood: i'm pretty sure it does. haven't tested though.
06:05:27 <oklokok> i think it's mostly for inheritance things, you know, not needing some arg anymore or something
06:06:40 <oklokok> we have pretty decent c++ exercises, which i actually should start doing right now.
06:07:01 <oklokok> forgot i had to return them today, so fun c++ morning \o/
06:08:29 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood: i can't say i know main's rules. but i'm pretty sure that's wrong too, although i'm also sure gcc compiles it.
06:09:11 <oklokok> just assumed he'd have tested.
06:10:20 <oklokok> a really hard test would not ask what the standard says, but what *different implementations* do. i mean, that's what you'll be using in practise, so good to know their quirks for situations where the standard is fuzzy ;)
06:11:24 <oklokok> also he explains at the bottom that he was not trying to be smug, but just showing what an ass he'd been as a first-time teacher
06:11:44 <oklokok> how's that dubious, mister
06:12:39 <bsmntbombdood> you'd have to teach the standard and the various implementations, which beginning programming teachers don't have the skill or time to do
06:13:01 <oklokok> if you teach them, how's it a hard test
06:13:22 <oklokok> you mention you ask implementations.
06:13:50 <bsmntbombdood> well then you are a bad teacher for not giving your students the resources they need to pass your dumb test
06:14:34 <oklokok> well tbh i was not being all that serious.
06:14:55 <oklokok> i would probably just ask for something that makes sense if i was a teacher
06:15:10 <oklokok> c++ isn't a good language for nitpicking
06:15:39 <oklokok> i used to love it, then i hated it, now i like it in theory, but probably wouldn't like to program in it.
06:18:59 <oklokok> what if the test was really easy but it was graded backwards?
06:19:22 <oklokok> or that you didn't get points at all! how about that? is that good hard?
06:19:38 <oklokok> C is okay, i probably wouldn't like programming in it either
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06:20:09 <Slereah> And I like programming in Scheme/
06:20:22 <Slereah> They both have their advantages
06:20:24 <oklokok> but i just do python. the ide opens fast.
06:21:03 <oklokok> scheme is fun in theory, but i've decided i hate sexps.
06:21:20 <oklokok> they delocalize the code writing process
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06:21:50 <oklokok> because everything you do requires wrappering in parens, it's simply annoying to write
06:21:56 <oklokok> Slereah: no the other sexp
06:22:05 <Slereah> I don't know what the other is
06:22:24 <oklokok> okay then maybe you shouldn't be in a conversation about scheme you filthy noob?
06:22:31 <oklokok> (it's the first kind of sexp.)
06:23:56 <oklokok> psygnisfive: well i got beat up by pizza delivery guys, been trying to solve this cypher a 7-yo did "for god to decypher", and playing the dotact2 game
06:24:15 <oklokok> you can choose the most interesting one for further questions
06:24:48 <psygnisfive> was this pizza delivery guy trying to engage in klingon sex with you?
06:27:15 <oklokok> one headbutted me to the ground, then two of them elbowed me a few times, but that was pretty irrelevant for damage
06:27:54 <oklokok> depends on the exact meaning of "can"
06:28:07 <oklokok> but it could, so maybe you should be more specific
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06:47:37 <oklokok> you're on quite many channels i've never heard about
06:47:46 <oklokok> that's a lie, i've whoissed you manyfold
06:48:34 <oklokok> not that i'm sure what that means
06:51:40 <psygnisfive> commonlisp is a horrible evil dialect of lisp
06:54:59 <oklokok> isn't it basically just something that lets you use the function as a value?
06:55:11 <oklokok> or do i misrememberize this all now is that it
06:55:15 <psygnisfive> why would you need something to allow that?
06:55:23 <oklokok> (i have never programmed common lisp)
06:55:27 <bsmntbombdood> oklokok: yes, that's the problem. functions should be values by default
06:55:47 <oklokok> when i first read about that, i was like "wtf, and lisp is supposed to be beautiful?!?"
06:55:55 <oklokok> but then i learned about scheme
06:56:10 <oklokok> scheme i've actually programmed in!
06:56:24 <psygnisfive> ive got quite a large program in scheme right now :o
06:56:58 <oklokok> is it your parser that parses all that is cool?
06:59:09 <oklokok> yes i mean your enflammolator
07:01:02 <psygnisfive> 310 lines of code so far. its the longest lisp program ive ever written :O
07:02:44 <oklokok> psygnisfive: i think i've written a longer one.
07:02:55 <oklokok> my only real program in scheme
07:03:05 <psygnisfive> im actually porting this from javascript where i have the prototype version
07:03:20 <oklokok> hey that's insulting to scheme.
07:03:28 <psygnisfive> but the JS version uses lots of imperative behavior thats hard to do in scheme
07:04:05 <oklokok> if you wrote it in js first so you could then compile manually to scheme, it's insulting :P
07:04:37 <psygnisfive> no, i wrote it in JS first because i had a deadline and needed to have a quick and dirty UI
07:04:49 <psygnisfive> and i had no real idea precisely how i was going to tackle the problem
07:05:15 <oklokok> well, i do admit functional programming often requires you to have a better idea of what you are doing.
07:05:17 <psygnisfive> it took like like three days to code the JS to get it right
07:05:21 <psygnisfive> now that i know what the requirements are, translating it into lisp is quite fast
07:05:40 <psygnisfive> actually it took more than three days, sorry
07:06:04 <oklokok> i wish i could code something for 6 days :P
07:06:30 <oklokok> i am passionate, but i get some kinda block after a few days.
07:06:31 <psygnisfive> i mean, im coding the demostration of my thesis project
07:07:05 <oklokok> well if i had a deadline, i'd probably work 24/7.
07:07:21 <oklokok> i have deadlines for a few coding projects, but they are pure crap.
07:08:40 <oklokok> unless you count what i did as a kid, and some games i've slowly enhanced for ages, oklotalk is probably my longest project.
07:08:59 <oklokok> and it took like 3 days (i could prolly do it in one day now)
07:09:19 <oklokok> as a kid i could work on a project for like a month
07:09:43 <oklokok> nowadays i can get the same results in a few hours, the problem is that's pretty much as far as my patience allows me to go
07:09:56 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood: then what have you been doing?
07:10:18 <oklokok> that's what happens when you stop schoolz
07:10:28 <oklokok> i hope you're proud of yourself
07:11:36 <oklokok> psygnisfive: about oklotalk? well i guess you could say i did before implementing it, making sure i knew what i was doing, but that was just a highschool project
07:12:11 <oklokok> i started at the uni like two and a half months ago, i'm learning the basics atm.
07:13:19 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood: i was in the same situation, then i started university, and now i'm filled with energy, doing all kinds of small projects all the time.
07:13:44 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol.
07:14:00 <psygnisfive> well, doing research will give you a nice long project or two to work on
07:14:31 <oklopol> high school was a waste of time, i could just as well have sat in a dark room for three years
07:15:11 <oklopol> psygnisfive: yes, i believe that. a thesis would be the kind of deadline that would get me working.
07:15:42 <oklopol> also now i'm stuck at irc because i have to stand up and go get me something to drink, and i don't feel like moving.
07:15:52 <oklopol> please be quiet for a while so i can't do it.
07:16:17 <oklopol> or "can", depending what "it" referred to, there
07:16:48 <oklopol> i have no idea really, my english, and my overall speakingious capacities seem to be getting worser all the times
07:17:15 <oklopol> psygnisfive: so many things i'm glad i don't have to choose right now.
07:17:40 <oklopol> but probably combining logic programming and OO with ai.
07:17:59 <psygnisfive> i havent touched any of it, really, but i want to
07:18:39 <psygnisfive> im already working on a computational generative syntax, and presumably i'm also going to work on a parser for it as well, i guess
07:19:06 <psygnisfive> and having a language-to-semantics system would be useful for doing AI i think
07:20:19 <oklopol> language is fun too, even natural language, also digital logic, games, anything involving algorithms really...
07:21:30 <psygnisfive> well, if you really od find NLP/CompLing stuff interesting, I can tell you as much as I can dredge up about the topic
07:21:38 <oklopol> well i'm mostly thinking combining the imperative kinda OO with an AI so you can do prolog-style search (but preferably more structured and intelligentt) for parts you don't have any kinda explicit optimization or good ideas for.
07:23:14 <oklopol> psygnisfive: you could teach me phonetics at some point...... .... ........ .. ....
07:23:44 <psygnisfive> i could. to be honest, phonetics really needs physical presence so you can hear the sounds.
07:23:48 <oklopol> that's just for fun / general wanting not to suck of course, i'm not really especially interested in phonetics
07:24:12 <psygnisfive> sucking at phonetics is like sucking at spelling
07:24:29 <psygnisfive> which is to say, it doesn't matter unless you care about spelling.
07:24:41 <psygnisfive> i mean, if you want to do speech recognition/synthesis its important
07:24:53 <oklopol> well i prefer to take that as "you gotta know it, but it's not really that cool if you do"
07:25:19 <psygnisfive> actually you dont have to know it in order to do theoretical linguistics
07:25:36 <oklopol> psygnisfive: no, but you have to know it in order¨¨¨¨.
07:25:46 <oklopol> i'm just gonna leave it like that.
07:26:13 <psygnisfive> ill teach you some syntax in the future if you want
07:27:54 <oklopol> you don't need to know phonetics for doing theoretical linguistics, but you do need it so you can learn a new language without having to wonder if you're even getting the basic structure of the sounds right.
07:28:07 <oklopol> and sure, i'd love to know more about syntax.
07:28:39 <psygnisfive> good. ill teach you some in the future. how about tomorrow or wednesday?
07:29:03 <oklopol> not that i want to learn that many languages, i just feel retarded for not having the abilitiez.
07:29:31 <oklopol> oh dear, trying to allocate some actual time ;)
07:29:43 <oklopol> gets much scarier than just talking about somewhere in the future
07:30:50 <oklopol> psygnisfive: yes, but these are entirely different kinds of wanting to learn. there are things i want to know because they're practically useful (like learning to punch pizza delivery niggas), and there are things i want to know because they are conceptually pure and sexy
07:31:22 <psygnisfive> as a finn, i deplore you, never use "niggas". it just sounds wrong coming from your fingers.
07:32:35 <oklopol> they aren't actually negros, i don't know the term for that race, except the finnish ...derogatory term.
07:32:46 <oklopol> i've heard many finns say merde
07:33:17 <oklopol> i can try not to confuse you with it
07:33:47 <oklopol> what's wrong about "pizza delivery niggas"
07:34:08 <psygnisfive> there's so much baggage around it that appropriate comic use relies heavily on stuff that you, as a finn, cannot replicate
07:34:27 <psygnisfive> you aint right, son, don't even think you are
07:34:54 <oklopol> i'm not a native speaker, so i can't learn to use it so that it's okay to say it?
07:35:04 <psygnisfive> and use of "niggas" non-comically is incredibly inappropriate
07:35:36 <psygnisfive> you're a finn. you're going to have a serious accent and distinctly finnish styles to your speech :P
07:35:37 <oklopol> psygnisfive: if you think i give a shit about that, you may confuse me with someone who cares about stuff like that.
07:35:54 <oklopol> well i wouldn't use that irl.
07:36:14 <oklopol> and i wouldn't use it if i knew someone here would get mad, if they were active.
07:36:29 <psygnisfive> you shouldn't use it online either. the english speakers who use "niggas" as a general substitute for "guys" or similar are almost universally very low class
07:36:35 <oklopol> but if a word is inappropriate, and i don't see a reason why it should be, i use it just out of spite.
07:36:47 <oklopol> psygnisfive: yes, i know that
07:37:12 <oklopol> how do you know i'm not white trash?
07:37:30 * oklopol is *manyfold* in things he is
07:37:43 <psygnisfive> only americans and canadians can be white trash
07:38:04 <oklopol> well then maybe i'm white trash born in a clean whiter's body :'<
07:39:11 <oklopol> don't worry, i don't even know what white trash means
07:39:40 <oklopol> then i guess i knew it, but my point
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07:40:12 <psygnisfive> stupid, socially reprehensible, often assholish uncouth and disgusting white people
07:40:31 <oklopol> well i guess that doesn't describe me
07:40:56 <psygnisfive> the kind of person who wears white wife beaters, is thin but insists on growing a scraggly patchy beard or, even worse, mustache in order to prove his manliness
07:41:20 <oklopol> i would probably like to get a beard.
07:41:40 <psygnisfive> yes but you could probably grow a proper bear and it'd look appropriate on you
07:41:54 <oklopol> except prolly not for manliness, more for looking bohemian-ish
07:41:58 <psygnisfive> whereas lithe guys with patchy shitty beards look stupid
07:42:41 <oklopol> i don't really give a shit about gender, so i don't really aspire for manliness
07:43:37 <oklopol> that's why i have trouble seeing why people do sex changes, if i woke up one day with a woman-hole, i don't think my life would change at all (except, well, i might get famous)
07:44:14 <psygnisfive> people get sex change ops because they feel uncomfortable in their body, not because they have something against it.
07:44:45 <oklopol> well, i wouldn't feel uncomfortable in a different body, unless i was simply objectively less abled.
07:44:45 <psygnisfive> but that's a very cognitive/psychological/neurological thing thats more complicated than just that.
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07:44:58 <oklopol> yeah, that's what they all say
07:45:07 <oklopol> i don't buy that, because i don't feel it's my case.
07:45:21 <psygnisfive> so we're getting married 0.4 of a marriage ey?
07:45:40 <oklopol> but indeed, it doesn't matter
07:45:53 <oklopol> its only purpose is to distract me from doing my c++'s
07:46:12 <oklopol> psygnisfive: hmm. i didn't agree to 0.4.
07:46:56 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: simply stuff. five exercises, i'm in the third one, it's a simple dispatching thingie about what the "call most specific function" thingie means in c++.
07:47:27 <oklopol> it's also a pretty stupid exercise, the rest are much better
07:47:57 <oklopol> psygnisfive: yes it's not infitesimally small. i'm not sure what i was thinking :o
07:48:19 <oklopol> okay now i really need to go
07:48:31 <oklopol> ugh, you need like 0.3 to kiss me, mister no-no-pants.
07:49:08 <oklopol> i'm not denying or nying anything
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07:52:50 * GregorR made a new generation of color matcher.
07:53:39 <oklopol> so basically you wanted to see them having some more of that sexual sex, and made them produce one whole generation of offspring in one night?
07:53:56 <GregorR> Different meanings of the term "generation"
07:54:01 <GregorR> I /generated/ a neural network.
07:54:07 <oklopol> yes, my joke kinda relied on that
07:54:09 <GregorR> In fact, that involves 10000 generations of evolution.
07:54:26 <GregorR> Which is to say, some millions of sexual encounters.
07:54:32 <GregorR> Between complete strangers.
07:54:36 <GregorR> Which happen to be neural networks.
07:54:47 <oklopol> so what you're saying is you're much, much sicker than i never even imagined?
07:55:13 <oklopol> oh dear... i should've just gone when i had the chance.
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08:01:51 <fizzie> You should maybe be producing some neural network porn tapes; I'm sure there's a market for that sort of stuff.
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08:46:54 <oerjan> <GregorR> I'm writing Variations on the Annoying Nokia Theme
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11:29:22 <nooga> fizzie: neural network porn tapes? :D
11:29:30 <nooga> how would that look like?
11:37:21 <fizzie> I don't know. Naked coefficients? Smooth curves in the activation functions?
11:37:30 <fizzie> Just a thought, really.
11:40:36 <fizzie> ais523: GregorR has been making his neural networks have sex again. I just suggested something to profit from it.
11:40:41 <ineiros> fizzie: Did you check the xkcd thread about the "I call rule 34 of Wolfram's rule 34"-thing?
11:41:10 <fizzie> ineiros: No, I just wondered about it.
11:41:16 <fizzie> ineiros: Are the images work-safe? :)
11:41:26 <ineiros> At least some of them. An example: http://forums.xkcd.com/download/file.php?id=8730
11:55:33 <oerjan> Wolfram's rule 34 is unfortunately boring
11:56:38 <ais523> 34 = 0b00100010, which would imply that 101 and 010 produce 1 as output, other patterns produce 0
11:56:50 <ais523> so you're just going to get a load of vertical black stripes separated by at least 2 white stripes
11:56:53 <ais523> and no interesting result
11:57:09 <oerjan> essentially 01 travels one step left per step, everything else is zeroed
11:57:29 <ais523> no, it's centered isn't it?
11:57:32 <ais523> or have I misread the number?
11:58:32 <ais523> agreed, you'll get diagonal stripes from black with white to its left
11:58:58 <fizzie> That just means it's a bit more of a challenge to apply the other rule 34 on it, nothing more.
11:59:32 <ais523> at least one version of the rules of the Internet I've seen have rule 35 as stating that deliberate attempts to invoke rule 24 fail
12:00:03 <oerjan> that's just stolen from Godwin's law i bet :D
12:00:39 <ais523> although I've deliberately invoked Godwin's law before, and it worked
12:02:53 * oerjan checks rule 35 in MCell
12:04:39 <oerjan> slightly more interesting. seems to settle into a period 2
12:05:11 <oerjan> but uses a fair number of generations to do so
12:06:37 <oerjan> seems like there is a possible glider, but it tends to die out
12:06:42 <fizzie> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ElementaryCellularAutomaton.html doesn't have an utterly interesting picture of rule 35, but it sure beats 34.
12:08:06 <oerjan> it only shows evolutions starting with a single black pixel though
12:09:53 <oerjan> i was doing 37 instead. darn hex input
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12:11:08 <oerjan> oh that's actually twice as interesting
12:11:26 <oerjan> single pixels travelling left, longer blocks travelling right
12:12:03 <oerjan> or wait, it's an optical illusion of sorts
12:12:25 <oerjan> actually everything travels 1 right in 2
12:12:57 <ais523> oerjan: not quite, surely?
12:13:04 <ais523> alternating black and white wouldn't do that
12:14:16 <oerjan> well there seem to be some initial exceptions that die out there too
12:15:49 <oerjan> yes, there is also a stationary (0 in 2) checkerboard pattern
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14:38:21 <ehird> http://www.getacoder.com/projects/bug_finder_92913.html
14:39:05 <ehird> I'd totally pay one of the $300 ones to see what happens
14:39:17 <ais523> surely it isn't worth that much?
14:39:18 <ehird> LOL the last bidder is "BusyBeaver"
14:39:33 <ehird> ais523: oh it would be
14:39:42 <ais523> "You may not start working in this and any project before your bid is accepted. Any user who violates this policy may have their account permanently suspended."
14:39:51 <ais523> what a strange restriction!
14:40:21 <ais523> most of them seem to be people replying to every project with boilerplate without reading it
14:40:35 <ais523> the sad thing is, a /practical/ infinite loop detector is quite possible
14:40:39 <ais523> it won't work on every program, obviously
14:40:45 <ais523> but will catch many stupid logic errors
14:40:50 <ehird> ais523: Congrats you got the joke!
14:40:57 <ais523> I thought it would have done
14:41:21 <ehird> http://research.microsoft.com/Terminator/
14:41:52 <ehird> (getacoder.com is codeword for indian-spammers-that-cannot-code-dot-com)
14:43:57 <ais523> Can I post contact information?
14:43:59 <ais523> Allowing the direct contact between buyers and sellers other than through the message boards could allow members to bypass the GetACoder system and in turn avoid the commission fees. Our charges are a fair price to bring software buyers and coders together. We do not allow the exchange of contact information.
14:44:18 <ais523> that website, as far as I can tell, is a way for people to make nonbinding agreements with each other whilst paying the website lots of money
14:44:26 <ehird> all getacoder-alikes are shams
14:44:32 <ehird> you are stating the blindly obvious
14:44:41 <ais523> not blindly obvious to everyone there
14:44:50 <ehird> because they're all scammers
14:44:58 <ehird> and the person who posted that question is joking
14:45:02 <ehird> see: the last line
14:45:04 <ais523> that might be fun to watch, actually
14:45:06 <ehird> which states the halting problem -exactly-
14:45:12 <ehird> also, the only other posters there are idiots
14:45:21 <ehird> e.g. someone wanted an OS better than windows that was also compatible with windows
14:45:24 <ehird> for a few thousand
14:47:01 <ais523> "Herr T, Despite the fact that I died in 1918 you may find the following advice important. I would be happy to work on your project but you will quickly find that it is impossible, nay undecidable."
14:47:19 <ehird> haha, was that posted?
14:47:33 <ais523> by someone with the nick "GeorgeCantor"
14:47:47 <ehird> although he was trolled.
14:48:05 <ais523> the submitter is AlanT
14:48:16 <ehird> To state that another way, given a function f and input x, determine if f(x) will halt.
14:48:20 <ehird> that pretty much gives it away
14:48:23 <ehird> even without AlanT
14:48:30 <ais523> what do the non-troll posts there look like, I wonder?
14:48:37 <ehird> ais523: i told you
14:48:41 <ais523> that fits my definition of trolling pretty well, but it's clever and funny trolling
14:48:53 <ais523> an art which I feared was lost to the Internet
14:49:02 <ehird> "I want OS called Blue Orb os. it must be compatible with windows Xp and Linux and also loko like OSX. Pls be responding quickly"
14:49:27 <ais523> I would find it so funny if someone told them to just get OS X + Parallels, and rename it
14:49:53 <ehird> OS X, and specify a method for porting applications
14:50:10 <ehird> or: Linux, with WINE, and an OS X copy skin
14:50:34 <ais523> arguably Linux + WINE isn't fully compatible with Windows XP
14:50:39 <ais523> nor windows Xp for that matter
14:50:45 <ais523> the caps probably make a difference
14:51:05 <ehird> ais523: typical getacoder:
14:51:12 <ehird> i need to build up very good reverse auction website.
14:51:12 <ehird> the reverse auction script has to be with no bugs and it have to be customized for all my necessities.
14:51:12 <fizzie> Well, it didn't say *fully* compatible.
14:51:15 <ehird> http://www.getacoder.com/projects/reverse_auction_website_93182.html
14:51:25 <ehird> http://www.getacoder.com/projects/api_voip_93170.html
14:51:29 <ehird> to use the API provided by the following URL to create a voip service (click to call) SIP
14:51:38 <ehird> http://www.getacoder.com/projects/customize_existing_vb_gpl_89636.html
14:51:41 <ehird> We need to modify an existing GPL item to meet our specifications of an simple interface. This is an open source item. It is written in Visual Basic 6. The code is published under the GNU GPL. We do not wish to resell the code or remove any of the copyright notices. Our finished product will have the same open source notices and we will respect and show the same the copyright notices as the original. We like the existing product; it is just rough in appearance
14:51:46 <ais523> someone should post a project to make an exact replica of getacoder.com
14:51:51 <ais523> complete with stupid Terms of Use
14:53:02 <fizzie> $100-300 is a nice prize for resizing an image.
14:53:04 <fizzie> http://www.getacoder.com/projects/resizing_images_graphics_93117.html
14:53:25 <ais523> Resize this image and win $-200
14:53:54 <ehird> Dear Sir, We are top ranked web Development Company from India having vast set of experience in development and designing of complex solutions. We have well trained and experienced developers and programmers specialized in different technologies. Please find the details with PMB along with Project execution plan. Thank you, Tech-Sters..
14:54:16 <ehird> We develop applications on the following platforms: Windows, UNIX, NT Server.
14:54:41 <fizzie> "I need a wikipedia clone with contents and menus the same as Wikipedia. You will have to download the english wikipedia article database, create the website with all contents installed and similiar to wikipedia."
14:55:01 <ais523> haha: http://www.expertrating.com/jobs/Programming-jobs/Intercal-Programmer-jobs.asp
14:55:24 <ehird> they scraped google, it seems
14:55:34 <ais523> "Boost your Intercal Programmer job prospects by enhancing your resume with an ExpertRating Online Certification. Since there are a lot of Intercal Programmer job seekers, extra credentials count. After passing your ExpertRating test, you will get an online transcript as well as a hard copy certificate mailed to you as proof of your Intercal Programmer skills"
14:55:38 <ehird> http://www.getacoder.com/projects/adult_video_site_93136.html
14:55:39 <fizzie> http://www.getacoder.com/projects/wikipedia_clone_contents_93101.html obviously wants to open an "with ads" version of wikipedia.
14:55:41 <ehird> I need an EXACT CLONE of pornhub.com, not a cheap looking joomla version or any other kind. I am looking for PROFESSIONALS ONLY, no amateurs! Also there will not be explanation in detail, I will give you my ideas, I will help in any way possible, but you will be responsible for looking up the smaller details – it is NOT hard, just go look at the site and do it, this does not require a detailed explanation if you already have everything given.
14:56:05 <ehird> under Features: "web 2.0"
14:56:33 <ehird> http://kottke.org/04/07/my-new-policy
14:56:37 <ehird> we have a policy that we are hack proof
14:57:34 <ais523> actually, legal means are better than technical means to prevent certain forms of hacking
14:57:53 <ehird> "we have a policy that you must not hack us"
14:57:57 <ais523> like copying closed-source programs, DRM nearly always gets cracked more or less straight away, but copyright still applies
14:58:00 <ehird> it is, "we have a policy that we are not being hacked"
14:58:12 <ais523> haha, sounds like a Nomic legal fition
14:58:18 <ehird> I Say That Is Our Policy Therefore It Is
14:58:21 <ais523> "I say we aren't, therefore we aren't"
14:58:43 <fizzie> "You have this security hole." "No, we have a policy that we don't have security holes."
14:58:59 <ehird> "You're bankrupt." "No, we have a policy that we will never be bankrupt."
14:59:00 <fizzie> "But you do!" "No, sorry, policy."
14:59:15 <ehird> "You are dead." "Tell that to my policy."
14:59:42 <ehird> i love how everyone ignores the bid amounts
14:59:50 <ehird> $20-100? I'll put in a bid for $1,000!
15:06:30 <fizzie> Lots of "clone this website for me" requests.
15:09:15 <ehird> who wants to tell me the dotaction 1-100 koed
15:09:36 <ehird> ais523: a game me, fizzie and oklopol have been playing for the last few days
15:09:39 <ehird> it's awful and it's addictive.
15:09:50 <ais523> an online game, or an in-channel talk game?
15:09:56 <ehird> online; it's flash
15:10:08 <ais523> well, there were other options but those two seemed the most likely to me
15:10:15 <fizzie> [2008-11-23 15:12:06] < fizzie> Since ehird probably wants them codes, 086-754 gives the 1
15:10:18 <fizzie> 01-108 list, while 809-936 gives the 1-100 list.
15:10:22 <fizzie> Write those down already.
15:10:42 <ais523> and I'm probably immune to that particular problem due to not having Flash nor wanting it
15:10:50 <fizzie> I think it was something like the fourth time you asked. :p
15:10:59 <fizzie> Away for some grocery-shopping and such now, anyway.
15:11:08 <ehird> ais523: it's a time-trially sort of game anyway
15:11:34 <ais523> it's not that simulate-a-runner-by-moving-the-individual-joints game, is it?
15:11:55 <ehird> there's a bunch of dots and you have to collect them all before the time runs out by jumping around.
15:12:07 <ehird> and there's electric fences. and water. and dots that make you immune to fences. and mazes. and ...
15:12:48 <ehird> i think i'll have another stab at nethack after this.
15:13:22 <ais523> <jayCampbell> "still creating bottle 99 several days later"
15:13:30 <ais523> do we have a new record for slowest esolang interp?
15:17:39 <ehird> <ais523> at least one version of the rules of the Internet I've seen have rule 35 as stating that deliberate attempts to invoke rule 24 fail
15:17:43 <ehird> i saw an in-depth essay on that
15:17:57 <ehird> porn of it exists, but sometimes it hasn't manifested into bits on a harddrive yet
15:18:02 <ehird> that is, it exists, but you can't see it yet
15:18:20 <ehird> any rule 34 "challenge" fundamentally misunderstands it: it does exist, it's just a matter of it coming into this plane of existing
15:18:41 <ais523> no, I agree with that theory, more or less
15:19:16 <ehird> we need to create a board of scholars for rule 34
15:19:30 <ehird> our job is to philosophize about it daily.
15:19:43 <ehird> before anyone says anything: ssh, stop ruining the joke
15:19:54 <ais523> ehird: you'll get loads of takers if you provide sufficiently many example cases
15:20:10 <ehird> ais523: you did not read my last line.
15:20:47 <ais523> I did, just chose to ignore it
15:20:49 <ehird> http://beardeddevelopers.com/
15:21:10 <ais523> it has its own website now?
15:21:39 <ais523> do you know about the theory that languages become more or less popular according to how much of a beard their creator has?
15:21:45 <ais523> programming languages, that is
15:21:57 <ehird> do you have a beard? feather will take the world by storm
15:22:04 <ehird> although moreso if your beard is turing complete
15:22:25 <ais523> ehird: you not only know I have a beard, but have photographic evidence of the fact
15:22:41 <ehird> oh, on the wolfram site?
15:22:58 <ehird> anyway, a picture is not helpful in determining turing-completeness. run a program on your beard./
15:46:32 <ehird> I'm going to write a functional-style VM and write a prototype-based smalltalk-alike on top of it
15:50:43 <ehird> the whole VM is based on completely immutable things
15:50:54 <ehird> it is impossible to change things, only add things, and garbage collection sorts the rest
15:51:32 <ehird> it's the base vm i'm talking about
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17:24:04 <ais523> Slereah: that's just persuading him to change nick...
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17:32:33 <oklopol> http://forums.xkcd.com/download/file.php?id=8730 <<< this is disgusting, guys...
17:33:41 <ais523> oklopol: then why did you link us to it
17:34:25 <Deewiant> if you hadn't said that it's disgusting I probably wouldn't've understood the point of it
17:34:44 <fizzie> You would've if you'd read the context in which it was originally posted here.
17:35:00 <oklopol> ais523: i got that filth from here
17:35:02 <fizzie> Logreading: it's not just a good idea - it's the law!
17:35:48 <Deewiant> meh, I'm on 25 channels and most logs aren't that interesting anyway
17:36:10 <ais523> oh, this is cellular automaton porn?
17:36:18 <oklopol> ais523: rule 34 on rule 34
17:36:24 <ehird> better would be to morph the starting states
17:36:39 <oklopol> weren't you here when that was discussed..?
17:45:18 <ais523> Slereah: no, it's boring
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17:51:44 <GregorR> Rule 110 is the only one proven to be TC.
17:51:56 <ais523> and the reflections and color-inversions of it
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17:54:50 <GregorR> I have a rule 110 T-shirt 8-D
17:55:01 * ais523 remembers how immediately after Fermat's Last Theorem was proved for positive exponents, they proved it for negative exponents
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17:55:14 <ais523> once you have the proof for positing exponents, the proof for negatives follows pretty quickly
17:55:49 <GregorR> I think the proof for inversions of a TC CA is probably much simpler :P
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18:12:30 <oklopol> 19:54… × ais523 remembers how immediately after Fermat's Last Theorem was proved for positive exponents, they proved it for negative exponents <<< you should be careful about your pronouns
18:12:47 <oklopol> i mean, that "they" could refer to the people who did the proof in the first place...
18:20:25 <GregorR> No, "they" refers to the alien invaders from Blernflim IX
18:20:46 <GregorR> They were nice enough to prove Fermat's Last Theorem for negative exponents while invading.
18:21:02 <oerjan> hm they must be real invaders because they've managed to keep their name out of google
18:21:33 <GregorR> They wiped themselves from human memory and record, BUT I REMEMBER CUZ ALL MY HATS ARE LINED WITH TIN FOIL
18:21:46 <oerjan> if it's not on google, it _must_ be a real conspiracy
18:23:29 <oerjan> x^(-n) + y^(-n) = z^(-n) <=> (yz)^n + (xz)^n = (xy)^n
18:23:53 <oerjan> so trivial as expected
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00:04:26 <warrie_> If a program does nothing but output a single character many times, running it is probably a bad way of determining how many times it outputs that character.
00:04:46 * warrie_ takes a look at BF busy beaver
00:26:45 <AnMaster> well bf is deterministic depending on input
00:27:01 <AnMaster> so the same program should give the same count
00:27:19 <MizardX> Hmm... found an interesting blog when I tried to find the BFBB... http://eigenratios.blogspot.com/
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00:28:31 <MizardX> Eigen values is some special constants that comes from matrices, and a few other systems.
00:28:35 <warrie_> How would you determine the amount of output given by a program like +[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[-..]?
00:28:59 <AnMaster> warrie_, run it with a given input?
00:29:27 <AnMaster> doing it otherwise sounds like it would solve the halting problem
00:29:38 <AnMaster> you may be able to solve that specific case however
00:29:47 <warrie_> AnMaster: suppose there are 1,000,000 [->++<]>s.
00:30:09 <MizardX> characters will be printed
00:30:11 <AnMaster> warrie_, hm I think that may be well defined
00:30:21 <warrie_> Would you run it, or perform some simple calculation and end up at 2^1000001?
00:30:35 <AnMaster> yes since you can see much much every [->++<]> adds
00:30:56 <AnMaster> then figure out the rate for decrementing
00:31:35 <AnMaster> warrie_, but the general case of bf programs.. wouldn't that solve the halting program?
00:32:56 * AnMaster waits for warrie_ to explain himself
00:34:46 <warrie_> I find it likely at the moment that it's possible to take any program that outputs n (possibly infinitely many) characters and produce one that runs faster and outputs a number of characters of which n is a function.
00:35:59 <warrie_> Obviously, it's possible to run the [->++<]> program, note the number of characters it outputs, and produce the null program, with the function being a constant function.
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00:38:49 <Sgeo> http://www.getacoder.com/projects/bug_finder_92913.html
00:41:57 <warrie_> That there is a computable function F whose input is a program that outputs n characters and whose output is n if n is finite, where F runs faster than the trivial function satisfying this criterion.
00:42:01 <warrie_> That being the "run it" function.
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01:17:52 <pgimeno> Okay, my ORK interpreter now runs *all* demo programs correctly, including the Kipple interpreter.
01:18:21 <pgimeno> I've also added implementation notes and bugs.
01:18:31 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/orkdemo.php
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01:50:13 <MizardX> Eigenratio for the Conway's Life self-interpreter: 5760. ("That's the number of generations that need to be run in Dean Bell's unit cell at level N in order to emulate a single generation in level N+1.")
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01:58:51 <warrie_> I prefer the eigenratio 5760*500*500, since each big generation-cell is that many little generation-cells.
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03:49:56 <MizardX> Better description of eigenratio: http://eigenratios.blogspot.com/2006_08_18_archive.html (He was the one who named it)
03:52:45 <GregorR> Organ_used_homos: Please describe the reason for your nickname with NO DETAILS AT ALL
04:00:31 <Organ_used_homos> Here's an explanation with no detail : It was on another server.
04:00:37 -!- Organ_used_homos has changed nick to Slereah_.
04:00:59 <GregorR> Please include precisely one more level of detail.
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05:22:47 <GregorR> GET IT? GET IT? IT'S A PUN.
05:45:51 * GregorR randomly decided to look at JSMIPS again.
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05:49:01 <GregorR> Slereah_: http://codu.org/jsmips/
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12:12:22 <pgimeno> GregorR: impressive! (jsmips)
12:14:41 <Slereah_> Maybe I can do sum pi-calc with it :o
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12:37:27 <nooga> clock() does not work :C
12:40:52 <ehird> http://www.ladyada.net/make/fuzebox/
12:51:31 <pgimeno> 4K ram? good for 99bob and stuff but quite limited otherwise
12:53:35 <AnMaster> "NTSC RCA composite and S-video out (PAL not supported at this time)"
12:53:54 <AnMaster> that limits it's usefulness here in Europe
13:00:41 <ehird> pgimeno: it's for 8-bit games
13:14:27 <ehird> it seems that a fully functional VM is pretty hard...
13:14:33 <ehird> you need to pass everything to functions to get it working
13:14:38 <ehird> but you have to put the functions SOMEWHERE
13:14:48 <ehird> but that's mutation of the machine state
13:17:46 <Slereah_> I for one welcome our new robot overlord.
13:29:56 <ehird> ais523: appealing a cfj because of schildt
13:29:58 <ehird> THAT i can support
13:30:09 <ais523> ehird: wrong channel, but yes
13:30:23 <ehird> no, schildt's programming is esoteric
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13:41:38 <ehird> btw, http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/magazine/16-12/ff_kaminsky?currentPage=all
13:45:09 <ehird> the attack is absolutely not cheap
13:50:17 <fizzie> The article, on the other hand...
13:50:20 <fizzie> "The vulnerability gave him the power to transfer millions out of bank accounts worldwide."
13:50:56 <ehird> But it's entertaining.
13:51:12 <ehird> Who reads wired for serious, somber articles?
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14:05:37 <Mony> salut Slereah_ ^^
14:07:00 <Slereah_> Je dis Mona car c'est le nom des chats de 2chan.
14:07:27 <Mony> c'est aussi le nom d'une femme
14:07:32 <Mony> or, je ne suis pas une femme :D
14:09:19 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers6/Shii2.jpg
14:09:31 <Slereah_> (Mona vient de la police utilis pour les faire)
14:12:05 <ehird> The scary part is that I understood half of that conversation/
14:39:41 <ehird> who wants to think about a purely functional vm and how it's impossible
14:50:31 <Slereah_> Also why would it be impossible? :o
14:57:24 <ehird> Slereah_: yes, and because to do anything you have to modify e.g. the call stack or similar
14:57:26 <nooga> le francophonic invasion
14:57:29 <ehird> it's impossible to have a VM that only appends
14:57:39 <ehird> because at the heart, its based on memory which mutates
14:58:46 <Slereah_> ehird : Only if you consider every memory-part of the machine as the memory.
14:59:02 <Slereah_> Plus, imagine if your machine just rearranged its connections!
14:59:14 <ehird> Slereah_: well, show me a spec for a purely-functional (no mutation whatsoever) vm that lets you add two numbers
14:59:18 <nooga> what connections do you mean?
14:59:18 <ehird> i'll show the mutation.
15:00:24 <ehird> Slereah_: Show the specccccc :P
15:00:27 <Slereah_> Give me a program, I'll interpret it for you
15:00:58 <nooga> filthy ocaml junkie you are
15:01:08 <ehird> Slereah_ doesn't know ocaml
15:01:45 <Slereah_> Although I'm curious about picaml
15:02:07 <fizzie> To pick a single point out there, I'm not seeing why you couldn't have an immutable call stack.
15:02:42 <ehird> fizzie: how would you call a function?
15:02:50 <ehird> it's immutable. you can't change the call stack.
15:02:54 <ehird> it must not change.
15:03:19 <fizzie> You can construct a new call stack, though.
15:03:30 <Slereah_> Yes indeed. Whatever that means.
15:03:30 <ehird> fizzie: Where do you put it?
15:03:32 <ehird> You can't replace it.
15:03:52 <Slereah_> I just assume it means something along "Using memory-part as not the memory itself"
15:04:24 <ehird> fizzie: You can all very well construct a new call stack, but it just sits there doing nothing.
15:04:31 <ehird> You can't put it into VM memory; it's immutable.
15:05:50 <fizzie> You can pass it to the function.
15:06:05 <fizzie> It's more of a continuation than a call stack in that case, though.
15:06:13 <ehird> fizzie: Pass it to what function?
15:06:19 <ehird> You can't construct a function, it has nowhere to go in memory.
15:06:49 <ehird> You need to make a function then pass a reference to the vm so that it calls it.
15:07:00 <ehird> But making a function and getting a reference requires putting a function in memory, thus mutating memory.
15:07:25 <fizzie> Huh? I assume you have something that can allocate new memory, yes.
15:07:40 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, but the _in-vm memory cannot change_.
15:07:45 <ehird> that is the whole point: it's purely functional
15:07:56 <ehird> you cannot _mutate anything existing_ that exists inside the VM
15:08:20 <ehird> it's not about implementation
15:08:23 <ehird> it's about the deisgn of the vm itself
15:08:27 <fizzie> Uh... cons'ing new storage does not sound like mutation to me.
15:08:28 <ehird> all code in the vm is purely functional, that is
15:08:43 <ehird> fizzie: that requires changing the VM's memory.
15:08:47 <ehird> changing anything within the VM is not allowed.
15:09:18 <fizzie> It just means giving it new storage. I'm not sure why your completely functional VM would have mutable memory anyway.
15:09:29 <ehird> ... when did I say it would?
15:09:52 <ehird> fizzie: Since I absolutely cannot see how it is possible: how would you spec a VM that mutates nothing within the VM, that lets you add two integers together?
15:10:24 <fizzie> I think there must be some issue of definition mismatch somewhere.
15:10:43 <ehird> But how would you spec such a trivial thing?
15:11:42 <fizzie> I assume a purely functional VM would have (wrt. memory) a single primitive like (cons), which would not be considered mutation.
15:12:15 <Slereah_> Plus, why are you always thinking of Lisp?
15:12:25 <Slereah_> It's not like it's the only functional thingamagig.
15:12:37 <fizzie> Okay, a single primitive like malloc, then, if you want it to sound low-levelish.
15:12:41 <ehird> Lisp is not purely functional.
15:12:53 <fizzie> I think that was directed to me. I know it most, that's why.
15:13:01 <Slereah_> The lisp that is purely functional
15:13:05 <ehird> fizzie: I'm just asking how you can have a functional VM that lets you add two integers together. I'm not sure you can.
15:13:57 <fizzie> I'm not going to start speccing things. But it's a *virtual machine*, you can freely select what sort of primitives you provide.
15:14:16 <ehird> I do not think you can create a virtual machine that is able to operate without any mutation whatsoever.
15:14:30 <ehird> You've basically just said "you're wrong", soooooo...
15:18:21 <fizzie> Your VM can have "call this object as a function" as a primitive, for one thing. You don't need to construct any call stacks or do any mutation "inside the VM" to call a function, then.
15:18:30 <ehird> fizzie: how do you make an object
15:18:40 <ehird> push to a stack? ding, you just mutated
15:18:45 <ehird> put in a register? dinnnnnnggggggggggg
15:18:48 <ehird> put in vm memory? DINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
15:19:00 <fizzie> With another primitive that allocates new storage.
15:19:13 <ehird> Ah, and what does it return? How do you use the storage?
15:19:39 <fizzie> Okay, allocates and initializes to whatever you want.
15:19:46 <fizzie> Immutable storage, that is.
15:19:51 <ehird> fizzie: Variable sized objects?
15:19:54 <ehird> How do you initialize them?
15:20:20 <fizzie> You don't need variable-sized objects, but I don't see why that would be a problem.
15:20:32 <ehird> fizzie: In the actual bytecode.
15:20:43 <ehird> How do you initialize an object with a variable sized initialization?
15:21:09 <fizzie> The function call primitive can easily accept a variable number of parameters.
15:21:25 <ehird> ok, let's look at this example:
15:21:30 <fizzie> Or the storage-allocation-and-initialization primitive.
15:21:32 <fizzie> And you can build variable-sized objects out of fixed-size objects, anyway.
15:21:41 <ehird> that {...} has to mutate, to put it on the stack or similar
15:22:41 <fizzie> Huh? If it's a parameter to call, why would you need to put it on a stack?
15:23:04 <ehird> fizzie: {...} being a function
15:23:15 <ehird> Besides, how can call take variable parameters?
15:23:27 <ehird> I'm talking at bytecode-level here
15:23:36 <fizzie> It's a virtual machine, why couldn't your "bytecode" do whatever you want?
15:24:36 <ehird> fizzie: Obviously my Lisp interpreter is a virtual machine.
15:24:39 <ehird> After all, it runs programs.
15:24:42 <fizzie> A completely functional VM (with primitives like "apply") will probably resemble a functional-paradigm language quite a lot, since indeed you don't have registers or anything, just parameters and return values.
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15:31:04 <ehird> fizzie: I mean, a VM bytecode isn't exactly going to be efficient if it's a nested tree ala lisp.
15:31:15 <ehird> Yet it's kind-of hard to make a stack based VM that doesn't mutate a stack.
15:31:32 <fizzie> Yes; if you base a VM on mutable concepts, it is indeed hard to make one that doesn't use mutation.
15:32:15 <ehird> Well, yes, but the point is...
15:32:30 <ehird> If you make your VM use arbitrary nested trees of a few primitives... you've invented Lisp
15:32:32 <fizzie> A functional VM like that would not probably be very "low-level", which I guess is quite understandable, given that "low-level" pretty much means "close to the underlying system", which is very mutation-rich.
15:32:36 <ehird> (And yet most lisps compile down to a vm, heh.)
15:33:00 <ehird> fizzie: The idea is, it's a low-level thing, except the system it's being low-level on is a mystical immutable computer.
15:33:28 <oerjan> ehird: a VM can implement a purely functional abstraction even if it isn't purely functional at the physical level (which nothing in our universe can be, presumably)
15:33:44 <ehird> but...that's not the point
15:33:53 <ehird> the _VM WORLD_ has to be immutable
15:34:02 <ehird> i.e. everything you can access via the VM code has to be immutable in every way
15:34:06 <ehird> VM code = code running on it
15:34:56 <oerjan> ehird: you can do something monadic, the access calculates the next world from the previous
15:35:07 <ehird> yes, but that's not exactly very functional in spirit
15:35:19 <ehird> i'm talking more the lambda-calculus type
15:35:57 <fizzie> Well, you can probably make a purely functional abstraction that's on a "lower level"; you can easily get rid of abitrarily nested trees, at least. (As long as you allow constructing those with the cons-like operation.)
15:36:07 <oerjan> ehird: i am reminded slightly of reversible turing machines
15:36:36 <ehird> fizzie: The problem is trees in general; it's not very efficient.
15:36:42 <oerjan> the connection being that it is hard to remove information from those, since you need to uncalculate it
15:36:54 <ehird> cons 1 (cons 2 nil) vs nil 2 cons 1 cons
15:37:19 * oerjan should mention that he is not entirely sober, since that might explain something
15:38:11 <ehird> THe former needs a call stack.
15:38:25 <fizzie> Yes, if you want something that's efficient to execute a conventional computer, you'd probably best use a VM that's close to it.
15:38:28 <ehird> So now you've got something even less like a VM; CPS-transformed lisp.
15:38:36 <ehird> I'm not really interested in efficiency.
15:38:38 <ehird> Just low-levelity.
15:39:28 <oerjan> ehird: a kind of graph machine, where graphs grow like crystals, but generated parts of crystals cannot be changed
15:39:38 <ehird> oerjan: that, except lower-level :-P
15:39:46 <oerjan> crystals are low-level
15:41:09 <oerjan> isn't it muriel or something that only allows you to copy information forward? that's almost immutable
15:41:37 <ehird> Like SMITH, Muriel has no traditional control structures. Instead, Muriel has a command to replace the currently running Muriel program with a given string, and run that instead. This leads to a programming method where a program must quine itself in order to perform any sort of loop.
15:44:22 <ehird> [[. It has no jumps whatsoever; the instruction pointer can only be incremented, and only by one instruction at a time. As a substitute for loops, the language allows code to be copied forward where it will be executed in the future.]]
15:46:00 <oerjan> also there's Elephant (barely non-esoteric)
15:47:29 <oerjan> where everything about the past can be referenced
15:47:49 <ehird> ah, that's mccarthy's isn't it?
15:47:51 <oerjan> not low-level, of course
15:48:30 <oerjan> <ehird> Slereah_ doesn't know ocaml
15:48:38 <oerjan> impossible! he's french after all
15:49:50 <ehird> see, what i'm planning on implementing is a high-level smalltalk-alike, except it's purely functional, and prototype-based
15:52:00 <oerjan> it's developed by INRIA and Xavier Leroy iirc
15:52:06 <fizzie> Normal people would just do a "traditional" VM that's just a bit more functionally-oriented than the rest.
15:52:09 <fizzie> Like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SECD_machine was
15:52:47 <oerjan> fizzie: well this is ehird we are talking about
15:53:05 <fizzie> Yes, and this is #esoteric.
15:53:09 <ehird> To hell with traditional things, I want purely functional! :-P
15:53:25 <ehird> I don't actually care if it's slow, Squeak is a dog anyway - besides, I'm planning on writing the VM in the language itself
15:53:35 <oerjan> #esoteric can only do purely dysfunctional
15:53:36 <ehird> (As well as a bootstrap in-C vm&compiler.)
15:53:48 <ehird> (But beyond that...)
15:55:29 <Slereah_> Isn't dysfunctional the unlambda/BF mix?
15:59:03 <oerjan> but there is no reason we couldn't have more
15:59:21 <Slereah_> It doesn't roll well on your toungue.
16:01:11 <oerjan> THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE ... oh wait i just claimed the opposite didn't i
16:01:41 <Slereah_> I recall some language called 0x29C or something
16:02:29 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/0x29C
16:02:46 <ehird> anyway, current thinking: I need to figure out how to do a purely-functional, applicationy-language without having a lisp-like (nested (tree))
16:04:18 <oerjan> i say potayto, you say 0xP0TAHT0
16:04:47 <AnMaster> it isn't valid hex expressed in the common 0x way
16:05:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's base humor
16:05:21 <AnMaster> wait doesn't "base humor" mean something else?
16:06:17 <oerjan> you detected a pun. that still keeps surprising me.
16:06:25 <oerjan> especially when not sober
16:06:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, and, what is "base humor"?
16:06:48 <oklokok> oerjan: why aren't you sober?
16:07:19 <oerjan> because an old friend came to town and bought a bottle of red wine
16:07:43 <AnMaster> drink in moderation, or better yet, don't drink at all
16:08:04 <oerjan> it's the first time i drink since June. i think that's plenty of moderation.
16:08:24 <oklokok> AnMaster: why? drinking a lot is great for ideas, drinking a lot if great for getting things done that are not fun to do
16:08:40 <oklokok> *drinking a little to the first one
16:08:48 <oerjan> AnMaster: low-level humor, btw, iirc
16:08:50 <oklokok> the fucking latter one i mean
16:09:03 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol.
16:09:09 <AnMaster> afk for the rest of the evening
16:13:58 <oerjan> this Orc thing, how is it esoteric?
16:16:17 <nooga> isn't Orc a bit old?
16:16:22 * oerjan goes on a blanking rampage
16:16:39 <ehird> delete, don't blank
16:16:58 <nooga> bottle of red wine?
16:17:08 <nooga> isn't vodka beter for blanking? ;p
16:18:34 <oerjan> hm we don't seem to have a deletion request template
16:20:06 <nooga> i have returned from breslavia todays morning and had no sleep
16:21:01 <oerjan> i know, it's easy to make that assumption from my air of wisdom and authority
16:21:37 <ehird> oerjan, why do you act sober when not sober?
16:21:49 <oerjan> i guess it's starting to wear off
16:22:46 <oerjan> it was only half a bottle after all
16:23:34 <nooga> half a litre per capita is the definition of nothing, as we say in Poland
16:24:05 <oerjan> if i wasn't seriously out of training it would probably have been nothing to me too
16:24:30 <nooga> heh, I can't drink
16:24:37 <nooga> maybe a beer sometimes
16:24:57 <nooga> ah, end of work, bbl
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17:22:38 <oklopol> http://esolangs.org/wiki/1cnis <<< doesn't perl have a "use" for getting bignums?
17:23:44 <oklopol> well yeah that wasn't really a question
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17:27:17 <oerjan> THEN WHY DID YOU USE A QUESTION MARK DUMBASS
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17:54:26 <oklopol> oerjan: i like you when you're drunk :D
17:54:32 <oklopol> well i guess you aren't anymore
17:54:52 <oerjan> i'm not half as think as you drunk i am
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18:03:04 <oklopol> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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20:36:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wat
20:37:09 <bsmntbombdood> <ehird> anyway, current thinking: I need to figure out how to do a purely-functional, applicationy-language without having a lisp-like (nested (tree))
20:37:23 <ehird> no mutation allowed, and it has to be low-level [it's a vm]
20:37:27 <ehird> keyword mutation there
20:37:36 <ehird> if you're pushin' 'n poppin' to a stack
20:37:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: changing.
20:44:44 <fizzie> I'm not sure how a "low-level"-feeling thing you'll get without having at least some registers. I'm sure you could do some sort of functional tarpit, though.
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20:45:43 <psygnisfive> http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.php?p=649306
20:46:10 <ehird> i think psygnisfive just set a record for "time until conversation reaches offtopicity"
20:46:12 <ehird> by starting off on it.
20:46:40 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | this is not the topic you are looking for.
20:47:40 <psygnisfive> i send that link because im curious if any of yous guys care to figure out some explanation for the phenomena that's explanation
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21:06:16 <Sgeo> psygnisfive, what?
21:06:30 <psygnisfive> http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.php?p=649306
21:07:04 <psygnisfive> yes, but this is esoteric. nothing is on topic here. :P
21:07:38 <ehird> i take it AnMaster commented inbetween
21:07:51 <ehird> in which case i'd like to tell AnMaster that this channel is pretty anarchic, and just about any topic goes.
21:08:04 <psygnisfive> no, i ask here because i figure you guys like solving queer problems
21:08:08 <oerjan> you could ask how to program a turing machine to follow that rule. that would probably be utterly irrelevant to how the brain does it.
21:08:12 <ehird> also, it's linguistics
21:08:16 <ehird> and esoteric-y linguistics
21:08:40 <AnMaster> hah, ehird changed point of view just to avoid agreeing with me
21:09:14 * ehird rreads logs. AnMaster: wrong
21:09:21 <ehird> i said it was off-topic, i didn't say that was a bad thing.
21:09:49 <psygnisfive> ehird: thats an idea. how would you design a TM to follow that rule, without simply /listing/ all the different versions
21:10:00 -!- oerjan has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | all talking in channel forbidden.
21:10:10 <oerjan> there, now everything is guaranteed off topic
21:10:27 <ehird> psygnisfive: i'd implement strong ai first.
21:10:40 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | The topic is everything that AnMaster doesn't say.
21:11:19 <ehird> if AnMaster says [[http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | The topic is everything that AnMaster doesn't say]]
21:11:22 <ehird> then he will cause a paradox
21:11:28 <ehird> and we shall exile him.
21:11:48 -!- AnMaster has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | The topic is everything that ehird doesn't say.
21:12:36 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | The topic is "AnMaster fails to sleep after saying so, due to defending himself against the annoying ehird, and probably sighing a lot in the process. /sigh".
21:13:16 -!- AnMaster has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ehird thinks this is funny. I suggest lament sets a sane topic and then +t mode..
21:13:28 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not going to happen
21:13:36 <ehird> the last time this channel was opped is when I got kicked on request
21:13:55 <ehird> if you don't like us doing what the fuck we want, make your own channel
21:13:58 <ehird> with a dictatorship.
21:13:59 <AnMaster> well you are free to ignore me, but please don't try to be annoying then
21:14:14 <AnMaster> also I never said it was bad either
21:14:23 * ehird reads logs. I'll be as annoying as I'd like, I'm very sure you have an /ignore. I do; it's very useful for ignoring your blabber.
21:14:24 <AnMaster> like you I just said it was off topic
21:15:40 <psygnisfive> well pretend its not a linguistics problem at all
21:16:47 <ehird> i didn't read most of the post
21:16:57 <psygnisfive> ok well heres a summary in linguistics-less terminology
21:17:21 -!- AnMaster has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | This topic may not be changed..
21:17:31 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | o rly.
21:17:53 <psygnisfive> in a sequence consisting of {A, B, C, X}, when any of {A, B, C} precede X, the ordering is always A-B-C
21:18:01 <psygnisfive> the ordering of those that precede, i mean
21:19:13 <oerjan> no, he accidentally all of it
21:19:25 <ehird> yep... the WHOLE thing
21:19:34 <ehird> i mean, i was just there, right
21:19:42 <ehird> and i accidentally the WHOLE WHAT YOU SAID
21:19:51 <ehird> jesus, it was really.
21:20:06 <ehird> After I accidentally it?!
21:20:10 <ehird> No way! Not again!
21:20:34 <ehird> You purposefully my whole face!
21:21:31 <ehird> You purposefully carrier lost
21:22:10 <oerjan> african or european carrier?
21:24:00 <ehird> For your breakfast lunchtime!
21:24:12 <oerjan> I love the lava live and it loves me...
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21:29:40 <oerjan> ok a silly idea, there are 5 slots. the first can only contain an A, the second B, etc., the last can contain any of A B C
21:31:40 <oerjan> the remainder is left as an exercise for the reader
21:32:26 <ehird> do you like smalltalk (the programming language, damnit)
21:35:37 <psygnisfive> when _any_ of {A, B, C} precedes X, the order is A-B-C
21:35:58 <psygnisfive> but when they follow X, the order among those that follow is unrestricted
21:35:59 -!- nooga has joined.
21:36:03 <oerjan> well duh the slots are ordered
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21:36:55 <nooga> so, was there a conclusion about this functional VM?
21:36:57 <oerjan> but order within a slot is arbitrary
21:37:14 <oerjan> though only the last slot can contain more than one element
21:37:46 <psygnisfive> so you mean theres something like [1] [2] [3] X [4]
21:38:09 <psygnisfive> [1] - [3] restricted to containing only one item, while [4] can have n items
21:38:38 * oerjan gives psygnisfive a C on the exercise
21:38:42 <psygnisfive> well this works, but its not very explanator :(
21:39:08 <psygnisfive> well the challenge was to find an explanatory way of describing the restrictions :P
21:39:23 <oerjan> you _really_ expect anything to explain it better than what you actually said?
21:40:02 <oerjan> the actual explanation may involve neuron structure and genes, in a horribly twisted way
21:40:05 <psygnisfive> sure! there are actually atleast two explanations that are relatively simple, in that the orderings just sort of fall out of the assumptions you put on the systems
21:40:20 <psygnisfive> oh i dont mean neuronal/genetic explanations i mean computational system explanations
21:41:01 <psygnisfive> there are two really simple explanations, as i said. they're both very very computationally oriented
21:41:40 <psygnisfive> rather than just an arbitrary specification like your slot hypothesis
21:41:51 <trave> would anyone be interested in checking out a diagram i put together, that attempts to associate the color spectrum to specific definitions?
21:42:12 <oerjan> that was just intended to be quasi-linguistic
21:42:23 <trave> http://illuminerd.wordpress.com/2008/10/12/om-resource-system/
21:42:52 <psygnisfive> im writing a paper for a syntax seminar on the restrictions that the formal system we use has
21:42:55 <ehird> trave: makes sense to me.
21:43:52 <trave> im hoping to work out a GTD style organizing system that you can log every aspect of "life" into color coded compartments
21:43:59 <nooga> looks colorful and nice
21:44:40 <trave> so, like if it was an iPhone application, youd have a spinning color coded sphere where you can keep track of things in bins
21:45:17 <oerjan> psygnisfive: i find the idea boring
21:45:39 <ehird> object-oriented design is the roman numerals of computing. -- rob pike
21:45:57 <psygnisfive> roman numerals in their original form were actually pretty darn useful
21:46:13 <ehird> he's right; although i like oop -
21:46:24 <ehird> roman numerals were useful, but that doesn't stop them being primitive
21:46:56 <nooga> psygnisfive: what is U20 v2 ?
21:47:00 <trave> what id like to see is relations between these object spheres, how resources are related between parties
21:47:41 <ehird> trave: i don't get it
21:48:39 <nooga> trave: i don't get it
21:48:43 <trave> id have to post this other word doc that i wrote up that explains the mechanics of the idea more, rather than the esoteric color associates
21:49:00 <ehird> wait, how are the associations esoteric?
21:49:10 <ehird> ... ohhh, you mean esoteric as in the non-programming language sense
21:49:11 <trave> colors == elements
21:49:24 <ehird> i didn't realise because this channel is often offtopic, but the official topic is esoteric programming languages
21:49:30 <trave> ooh, i didnt know esoteric was a programming language, hah
21:49:42 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language
21:49:47 <ehird> it's a type of proglang
21:49:50 <ehird> but umm anything goes here
21:50:23 <trave> ah that makes sense
21:51:07 <ehird> this is pretty much the most generic channel on irc.
21:51:49 <trave> well, the elements can be associated to colors, red/fire, blue/water, green/earth, etc. and the "purpose" of those elements can be given broader meanings... so like yellow == wind == words, etc.
21:52:22 <nooga> psygnisfive: you mean ... http://encyclopediadramatica.com/PMS
21:52:28 <trave> or green == earth == money/property
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21:52:51 * ehird doesn't understand psygnisfive's PM obsession.
21:53:09 <psygnisfive> well, im talking to him about that ordering stuff and im sure you dont want to hear it so
21:56:17 <oklopol> i don't like *all* numbers
21:56:42 <trave> just REAL numbers?
21:57:58 <oerjan> those pesky tranfinite numbers. coming here living off welfare and and taking our jobs.
22:01:45 <oklopol> oerjan: thanks a lot... my *mother* is a transfinite number
22:03:36 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
22:04:01 <oerjan> not to mention an expert in cardinal sins
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22:35:01 <nooga> textual esoteric languages are boring
22:35:31 <oerjan> so last year. this is the age of _smell_
22:35:44 <ehird> sexual programming languages.
22:35:45 <GregorR> ehird: Stage 69 has me beat.
22:35:53 <ehird> GregorR: which is that
22:36:10 <oerjan> clearly a problem in the sexual programming
22:36:11 <GregorR> oerjan: Hey ... I'm anosmic :(
22:36:29 <ehird> GregorR: what's the code
22:36:47 <ehird> also, ansomic: awesome
22:37:46 <ehird> it doesn't look hard
22:38:11 <GregorR> I can't get the third one.
22:38:16 <GregorR> The first two and last one are trivial.
22:38:41 <oklopol> is it the one with four uppity-caves you have to climb
22:38:46 <ehird> whats so hard about it
22:38:50 <nooga> what is that game?
22:38:57 <ehird> http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/
22:39:05 <ehird> it just looks tediou
22:39:12 <oerjan> GregorR: you should apply for a service dog that can translate the smells for you
22:39:24 <oklopol> it's pretty easy, you just jump, and hit left very quickly just as you're on the hole, so you get on the brink
22:39:35 <oklopol> you can only fail in the middle doing that
22:39:46 <GregorR> oklopol: ORLY THANX I NEVR THOT OF THAT LAWL
22:40:03 <GregorR> oerjan: Yes. Because anosmia is life-hindering :P
22:40:14 <ehird> ansomnia would be awesome
22:40:19 <oklopol> GregorR: err, you can't do it like that?
22:40:22 <ehird> smells, in general, aren't overwhelmingly interesting
22:40:31 <ehird> you get to not deal with all the crappy smells
22:40:52 <GregorR> ehird: Do you like tea, coffee or beer?
22:40:56 <oklopol> when i discovered that, i did it in two tries
22:41:06 <GregorR> oklopol: I can't get the timing right X_X
22:41:26 <GregorR> ehird: They all taste like bitter water to me.
22:41:26 <oklopol> GregorR: it's pretty trivial to just hit the button when you're at the hole.
22:41:34 <GregorR> oklopol: Yeah, well so's your face.
22:41:37 <ehird> GregorR: What about chocolate?
22:41:56 <GregorR> ehird: Dark chocolate is good ... it's a good bitterness ... bitterness combined with deep flavor ... like Moxie.
22:42:09 <oklopol> GregorR: i'm going to tell you that about every level until you beat 97 ;)
22:42:09 <ehird> So basically everything is bitter to you :P
22:42:15 * oklopol is at 98, and not playing atm
22:42:29 <oklopol> atm meaning like, probably not this week
22:42:37 <GregorR> ehird: Well, I don't like milk chocolate, that was just a bad example :P
22:42:49 <GregorR> ehird: Chicken does not taste bitter to me.
22:42:58 <GregorR> ehird: Turkey (more relevantly) does not taste bitter to me.
22:43:36 <ehird> btw, the last tower is the hard one
22:43:39 <ehird> the third one is easy
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22:44:28 <GregorR> Whaaa? I did the last tower on my first try! All you have to do is get at the edge of each hole and jump, you can't overrun getting into the next hole so just hold down (and of course make sure to pull up before falling off the edge, but that's not hard)
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22:44:45 <ehird> Are we talking abotu the same one
22:45:40 <oklopol> isn't it more like bow-bow-chicka-wow?
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22:46:21 <oklopol> i must flee now, i have AN INFINITE SET to prove things about
22:46:43 <oerjan> that's what _she_ said
22:48:40 <trave> in regards to how long you have to wait to get some?
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22:50:25 <oerjan> GregorR: falling into the lava again?
22:54:44 <nooga> GregorR: i had a friend who's dad falled from a cliff and crashed his head... after that he was forced to discover flavours again
22:55:10 <nooga> so he ate things like a sausage with chocolate and mayonaise
22:55:22 <GregorR> nooga: ... yum ... or not.
22:55:32 <nooga> or jam with pepper and cucumber
22:56:17 <GregorR> I notice that in both of your examples there's really only one offensive ingredient :P
22:56:33 <nooga> liver with strawberries + smoking a cig
22:57:56 <oklopol> GregorR is falling in lava? with whom?
22:58:22 <ehird> hey whazza full code again
22:58:35 <ehird> oklopol: wut iz it
22:58:37 <oklopol> but i think it's better if fizzie gives it
22:58:46 <oklopol> fizzie: can you give the full codie again?
22:58:56 <oklopol> fizzie: what's the code for 1-100?
22:59:10 <oklopol> fizzie: ehird wants to play can you give him the code?
23:00:09 <ehird> oklopol: wut izi t
23:00:19 <GregorR> fizzie: do u luv being spammed?
23:00:26 <GregorR> fizzie: cuz ur gunna get lots LAWL
23:03:55 <psygnisfive> http://infosthetics.com/archives/chocolate_pie_chart.jpg
23:04:39 <GregorR> What that chart tells me is that white chocolate sucks (which it does), milk chocolate sorta sucks, and dark chocolate is good.
23:04:59 <ehird> hey i like white chocolate
23:05:07 <psygnisfive> milk chocolate has the majority of the pie
23:05:10 <ehird> also milk chocolate. also dark chocolate.
23:05:25 <ehird> i... pretty much just like chocolate
23:05:44 <oklopol> chocolate is pretty tasty.
23:05:48 <GregorR> White chocolate isn't chocolate.
23:05:53 <GregorR> Don't go calling white chocolate a type of chocolate.
23:09:06 <psygnisfive> proper chocolate is just basically ground up chocolate bean + milk and sugar and such, while white chocolate is chocolate bean fat + milk and sugar and such
23:09:42 <ehird> btw, white chocolate is tasty
23:09:46 <psygnisfive> its only a lie if you require the phrase "white chocolate" to be strictly compositional
23:10:00 <GregorR> Also, the "such" contains the all-important and extremely-underrated ingredient vanilla.
23:10:07 <psygnisfive> and for "chocolate" to mean all and only the products produced using the whole bean
23:10:10 <ehird> vanilla is delicious
23:10:22 <psygnisfive> i hate it when people say "vanilla" is "plain"
23:10:24 <GregorR> And also a yellow-brown color.
23:10:28 <ehird> vanilla is not plain
23:10:33 <ehird> vanilla is tasty and exploding and MMMMMM
23:10:35 <psygnisfive> if you make icecream without vanilla, it tastes bland
23:10:35 <GregorR> psygnisfive: It's all the fault of American ice cream companies.
23:10:37 <ehird> everything is better with vanilla
23:10:41 <ehird> and everything is better with chocolate
23:10:42 <ehird> and everything is better with bacon
23:10:45 <ehird> chocolate bacon has been done
23:10:50 <ehird> vanilla chocolate bacon
23:11:06 <GregorR> There's vanilla in chocolate.
23:11:10 <GregorR> Therefore it has been done.
23:11:10 <psygnisfive> i actually refuse to make non-vanila icecream on a plain base
23:11:14 <ehird> but NOT ENOUGH GregorR
23:11:15 <oerjan> egg & bacon icecream has been done
23:11:20 <nooga> i do not like sweets
23:11:32 <psygnisfive> so much better if you start with a vanilla base
23:11:34 <nooga> when i eat something sweet, i must smoke immediately
23:11:35 <ehird> nooga: how dare you call chocolate sweets
23:11:40 <ehird> how dare you call vanilla a sweet
23:11:40 <nooga> to kill the flavour
23:11:45 <ehird> (how dare you call bacon a sweet)
23:11:50 <ehird> they are GODS of your PUNY EXISTANCE
23:11:55 <ehird> what GregorR said :P
23:12:03 <ehird> soon you won't have to smoke after sweets!
23:12:07 <ehird> or indeed eat at all! :D
23:12:25 <psygnisfive> gregorr: apparently most american white chocolate has no cocoa butter at all
23:12:38 <ehird> Smoking cures cancer! For some definition of curing! Or cancer! OR SMOKING!
23:12:47 <GregorR> psygnisfive: That's because it's a LIE! :P
23:12:53 <GregorR> Anyway, corned beef is good.
23:12:53 <nooga> non smokers are funny
23:13:04 <ehird> "Smoking cures cancer, if by 'smoking' you mean 'chemotherapy'"
23:13:08 <psygnisfive> GregorR: are you playing the sequel to Portal?
23:13:21 <oklopol> nooga: yes, smoking destroys the humor gland
23:13:23 <GregorR> psygnisfive: There's a sequel to Portal? X-P
23:14:06 <oklopol> hoping and joking don't mix
23:14:17 <GregorR> Yeah, well so's your face.
23:14:58 * GregorR has decided, spurned on by an episode of Scrubs, to use that in all situations in which it's nonsensical.
23:15:15 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, well so's your face.
23:15:20 <psygnisfive> GregorR: you needed the scrubs episode to motivate that?
23:15:24 <GregorR> Walked right into that one.
23:15:34 <psygnisfive> just being on the internet should've motivated you
23:15:34 <GregorR> psygnisfive: Yeah, but so's your face.
23:15:46 <ehird> oklopol: Yeah, well so's your face.
23:16:00 <oklopol> ehird: yeah i've been told that
23:16:27 <psygnisfive> i went into the Mixed Nerd Cultural Phraseology territory
23:17:42 <trave> what if the universe was created by a Big Bong?
23:17:54 <trave> the Big Bong theory
23:18:10 <psygnisfive> trave: the egyptians believed the universe was created by a very large ejaculation.
23:18:28 <psygnisfive> this theory might've been inspired by a big bong, however.
23:18:36 <trave> i need to join the OTO and participate in some of that
23:18:50 <nooga> and Big Bong theory assumes that it was a very large inhalation
23:19:38 <nooga> *greetings from cancer*
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23:20:54 <oerjan> then we have the theories of the Big Binge, the Big Bungee, and the Big Bongo
23:26:30 <trave> is there a "big gang bang" theory yet?
23:26:41 <trave> i think i just added that to the multi-verse
23:27:11 <nooga> i was wondering... from where did they get words describing things and abstract ideas in various languages
23:27:31 <psygnisfive> im sure theres some possible world where there is such a theory
23:27:38 <nooga> it's quite hard to make completely new dictionary from scratch
23:27:56 <trave> it started with Vowels from what I gather
23:28:30 <trave> theres only 5 "connecting" sounds, the consenants seem like theyre the static
23:28:39 <ehird> psygnisfive: that show stole a game from one of Wooble (from ##nomic)'s friends
23:28:47 <nooga> is it like "oh, i see that thing... let it be a wyeirmd... nah... or rather .... a tree ! (xD)"
23:28:48 <ehird> apparently. http://www.samkass.com/theories/RPSSL.html
23:29:27 <ehird> that game was invented 10 years ago.
23:29:38 <trave> hebrew numbers are represented by alphabetic letters, there is no separation
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23:30:20 <nooga> psygnisfive: what do you think about that?
23:30:41 <psygnisfive> ehird: still, how cool is that? someone from ##nomic, their friend, now has a game on a tv show
23:31:19 <trave> so, letters/sounds become associated to meaningful attributes, which then are strung together into words
23:31:20 <ehird> psygnisfive: well, he wasn't credited or told about it and the show apparently portrayed it as if it'd invented it
23:31:26 <ehird> and now people yell about it daily on his comment section
23:31:27 <ehird> saying he stole it
23:31:37 <ehird> i'm not sure the upside is good enough to cover that :-P
23:31:42 <psygnisfive> ehird: i dont think anyone believes they invented anything in the show
23:31:53 <ehird> look at the comments.
23:32:10 <psygnisfive> well ok maybe some people think it was invented in the show but
23:32:34 <trave> what I find interesting is that before man evolved to a state of verbal language, we communicated like how "primitive" animals do through chemicals and mental vibes.
23:32:39 <psygnisfive> made funnier by the fact that its all genuine
23:32:47 <ehird> trave: "man was originally primitive then evolved"
23:33:16 <psygnisfive> trave: individual sounds arent associated with meanings really
23:33:28 <psygnisfive> thats one of the things about language that makes it language
23:33:41 <trave> chemical communication is neat because it lingers over time, chatter so temporary and "secret"
23:33:44 <psygnisfive> the actual sound content of words is arbitrary
23:34:08 <nooga> but try to name things you see with your own words that arent riddiculous and do not resemble any words that you know for those things in the languages you know
23:34:25 <trave> well im talking about the beginning of verbal communication, its gotten pretty fragmented with so many new variations and dialects over time
23:34:33 <oklopol> nooga: how's that hard? i have python
23:34:51 <psygnisfive> trying to break out of that is difficult because the sound-meaning association is so very strong
23:35:06 <psygnisfive> trees just LOOK like they should be called "tree"!
23:35:25 <psygnisfive> but if you ask a french person, trees just LOOK like they should be called "arbre"
23:35:35 <psygnisfive> or a japanese person, trees just LOOK like they should be called "moku"
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23:35:42 <oklopol> also it's pretty simple to start thinking in a random inexistant language, only educated fools think languages we know make us associate words with them
23:35:58 <ehird> oklopol: you have to realise that you're bizarre
23:36:16 <oklopol> a tree? i think it's should be called something with a shizzle
23:36:18 <nooga> if you ask me in Polish, "co to jest?" (what is that) pointing a tree i will immediately say "drzewo" (a tree)
23:36:32 <trave> im curious about the ideas of orwells new-speak that
23:36:34 <nooga> but when you ask me in English, i would immediately say "a tree""
23:36:41 <oklopol> maybe with a CZZHHH at the end
23:37:02 <trave> ... reducing out all the redundancy out of language and working towards the most basic
23:37:04 <oklopol> nooga: it seems polish is pretty close to my idea word for tree then
23:38:55 <nooga> i wouldn't be glad about that in your place ;p
23:39:15 <psygnisfive> the sapir-whorf hypothesis, that language constrains thought, is false.
23:39:54 <ehird> i wish it was true because i like imagining AIs programmed in BASIC being really fucking dumb and yet making all kinds of cool shit
23:40:00 <ehird> brainfuck ones twiddling away for ages to do incomprehensible stuff slowly
23:40:35 <psygnisfive> a different way in which language affects "thought"
23:40:49 <psygnisfive> obviously since those languages are TC theres nothing one can do that the other cant
23:41:02 <trave> i get cha. the time it takes to read is already at the speed of thought, its arbitrary what the letter combinations are, its emotion that you are recording.
23:41:04 <psygnisfive> the sapir-whorf hypothesis tho is that we THINK in the language we SPEAK
23:41:27 <psygnisfive> trave: the speed of reading is actually not.
23:41:29 <ehird> i think in english
23:41:30 <nooga> a language that is capable of altering itself to the enourmous abstraction levels
23:41:32 <warrie> Fun experiment: read something, speak it, and type it all at the same time while thinking about something else entirely.
23:41:39 <psygnisfive> i dont mean what your inner voice is in, ehird
23:41:54 <trave> ouch, that makes my head hurt just visualizing that experiment
23:42:00 <ehird> btw, everyone has a little monitor in their head right?
23:42:07 <psygnisfive> inner voices are definitely in your native language, or whatever
23:42:09 <ehird> as in, you can display images sort of... in the block of space on your head above your eyes
23:42:13 <ehird> except it's kind of not there
23:42:16 <ehird> it's kind of everywhere
23:42:24 <ehird> i'm assuming this is normal
23:42:37 <warrie> Actually, you have to think about what you're reading to some extent in order to speak it.
23:42:37 <psygnisfive> what i mean is that actual _thought_ is in your language
23:42:40 <ehird> agh i just used that and eeeeek
23:42:46 <warrie> Just read it and type it at the same time.
23:42:52 <nooga> depending on situation i can think in my basic english, or polish or even both simultaneously
23:42:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: TELL ME WHERE THOSE IMAGES ARE
23:42:58 <ehird> :--------------------;
23:43:00 <psygnisfive> if your language lacked tense and words for time concepts
23:43:12 <psygnisfive> then you would be INCAPABLE of conceiving of the notion of time
23:43:34 <ehird> psygnisfive: what, you mean you can't display images in your head?!?!
23:43:58 <ehird> it just freaks me out.
23:44:02 <ehird> i can see them, but i can't see them in any place.
23:44:19 <psygnisfive> when you say see them but not in any place
23:44:29 <ehird> i don't see them with my eyes, i guess
23:44:31 <ehird> i just... perceive them
23:44:34 <warrie> I cannot think about calculus without thinking in English to some extent.
23:44:36 <ehird> I can "see" them but they're not placed anywhere.
23:44:44 <ehird> i'm assuming everyone else can do that/
23:44:48 * warrie realizes that he's had ehird on ignore all this time, and /unignores him
23:44:51 <ehird> i.e. just conjour up an image?
23:44:53 <nooga> it'r rather like you create a more or less abstract scene described in brain compatible format
23:45:00 <ehird> they're... nowhere, really.
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23:45:12 <ehird> psygnisfive: imagine a random scene
23:45:14 <warrie> I cannot think about calculus without thinking in images to some extent.
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23:45:16 <ehird> can you see it if you try to?
23:45:17 <trave> this is related to what that diagram i showed you guys is all about... all these various tangible/intangible "objects", can be organized into nested meaningful color-coded levels. for example: blue == water (emotions/life) == people...
23:45:18 <ehird> just think of an image
23:45:25 <nooga> and you know where exactly are things on that scene and what happens there
23:45:29 <ehird> you can perceive it, right?
23:45:32 <ehird> but you don't see it anywhere
23:45:36 <ehird> and there's no actual seeing to speak of
23:45:38 <psygnisfive> yes, but its sort of within my spacial model of the world, to an extent
23:45:51 <ehird> psygnisfive: does it like, appear in front of you?
23:46:03 <trave> if you have had enough mushrooms, it does
23:46:04 <psygnisfive> not that its anyhere in particular, but its not exactly completely dislocated from a spatial position
23:46:23 <psygnisfive> it doesnt appear in from of me in the sense that it looks as real as things i see with my eyes
23:46:25 <warrie> Use the word "hallucinate".
23:46:47 <ehird> psygnisfive: it kind of appears above my range of eyes
23:46:50 <ehird> it can appear anywhere
23:46:50 <psygnisfive> but it inherently has a position in my internal model of space
23:46:52 <ehird> without being there
23:47:01 <warrie> Most people can think of images. Most people cannot voluntarily hallucinate them.
23:47:03 <psygnisfive> well, ehird, i think we should distinguish two things
23:47:13 <ehird> i'm asking how they think of them
23:47:15 <psygnisfive> one: whether it "looks" the same as stuff you see with your eyes
23:47:24 <psygnisfive> e.g. can you tell whether its an imagined image or a real one
23:47:31 <nooga> painter can show you the image from his head
23:47:41 <psygnisfive> and two: whether it necessarily occupies a position in space or not
23:48:14 <psygnisfive> i can imagine something in front of my eyes, in my normal visual field, but its distinguishably not coming from my eyeballs
23:48:27 <trave> its the third eye :]
23:48:46 <psygnisfive> im not entirely sure i can envision it outside of my visual field. perhaps only partially
23:48:52 <trave> i had a pretty vivid dream once standing above my bed, i could see the room like plain as day.
23:49:07 <psygnisfive> but that does make a lot of sense, because visual imagination is _very_ strongly tied into the actual visual cortex of the brain
23:49:08 <nooga> it happens sometimes
23:49:26 <psygnisfive> infact, when you visually imagine something, your visual cortex looks exactly as it would if you were actually seeing that thing
23:49:31 <ehird> psygnisfive: right, I can picture mickey mouse on my deks, but it's very faint
23:49:36 <ehird> it's obviously not there, and it's very very faint
23:49:36 <trave> to be out of body or not be out of body, that is the question
23:49:51 <ehird> instead of trying to project an image
23:49:55 <ehird> just think of the image itself
23:49:58 <psygnisfive> completely dissociating things from places in the visual field is very difficult i think
23:50:05 <ehird> it'll appear *nowhere*
23:50:09 <ehird> and yet it'll seem to appear somewhere
23:50:13 <nooga> can you imagine a car that you hear on the street and place it on that street nest to your home while you can't see the car because there is a wall?
23:50:13 <ehird> but you won't be able to place where it is
23:50:14 <psygnisfive> ehird: well, think of an image, as in "think of the mona lisa"
23:50:14 <ehird> just htink of an image
23:50:33 <ehird> and... turn on imaging mode
23:50:40 <ehird> but don't try and project it
23:50:40 * warrie tries to think of his integration by parts picture without it being in any place
23:50:45 <ehird> just think of the actual image object that represents it
23:51:13 <warrie> I don't know if I can do it.
23:51:18 <ehird> it comes naturally to me o.o;;
23:51:25 <ehird> it's just what happens when i think of an imge.
23:51:32 <nooga> i can image mona lisa on the wall next to me
23:51:36 <psygnisfive> ehird: well, we might be experiencing the same thing
23:51:44 <nooga> or i can imagine it nowhere
23:51:55 <psygnisfive> but i do think its tied in to a location in visual space
23:51:59 <ehird> does anyone else have a mind jukebox? i can play full songs in my head at command.
23:52:09 <ehird> and modify them in any way while they're playing.
23:52:12 <ehird> it's weird. but fun.
23:52:22 <warrie> ehird: how easily can you pick apart chords and such?
23:52:31 <nooga> ehird: especialy Pink Floyd
23:52:35 <psygnisfive> i dont have the memory for full songs, but i can occasionally end up almost hearing a song in my head
23:52:40 <warrie> Do you have absolute pitch?
23:52:41 <ehird> warrie: not at all; it's just blobs of audio data, except I can imagine a tune and it'll do it
23:52:43 <psygnisfive> but this is all precisely what you'd expect
23:52:47 <ehird> i play with it so much that it invented a gui
23:52:51 <ehird> which appears in my no-space above my vision field
23:52:57 <ehird> it looks basically like winamp or xmms XD
23:53:20 <ehird> when i play back songs in my head
23:53:24 <trave> hah, thats fanciful.
23:53:24 <ehird> I don't hear them through anything
23:53:27 <ehird> or even hear in particular
23:53:33 <psygnisfive> sometimes my inner record play starts skipping :(
23:53:33 <ehird> i just... the sound is there.
23:53:41 <ehird> also, it's very low volume
23:53:54 <ehird> same as my visual projection is very faint
23:53:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: i know
23:54:01 <ehird> i've just always been interested
23:54:06 <ehird> in the sort of mechanics of it
23:54:16 <trave> our subconcious can probably just barely hear "our" end much the same way
23:54:17 <nooga> playing Pink Floyd - Dogs, second solo, atm
23:54:17 <ehird> i.e. how other people percieve it
23:54:41 <warrie> I have absolute pitch (though I can't easily recognize anything except G) and can pick apart chords with some difficulty. I think it would be a little bit cool to be a musical savant or something.
23:54:53 <ehird> I'm a musical idiot.
23:54:59 <ehird> i have absolutely no musical knowledge whatsoever, this saddens me :(
23:55:03 <nooga> being savant is cool
23:55:54 <warrie> If you can sing in tune, you're not a musical idiot. Otherwise, we'll need to perform further testing.
23:56:14 <ehird> warrie: I wouldn't know if I sang in tune. I couldn't tell.
23:56:18 <ehird> I mean, i'm not tone deaf.
23:56:25 <ehird> But I wouldn't be able to recognize if I was singing in tune.
23:56:35 <warrie> Can you recognize if other people are singing in tune?
23:56:38 <nooga> i can play the tune i imagine on a guitar if it's slow enough
23:56:50 <psygnisfive> ehird: interestingly, musical knowledge isn't stored in the brain in terms of absolute pitch but rather intervals
23:57:14 <psygnisfive> and its not stored in as just a single music-score like piece of information but rather a markov-chain-like structure
23:57:15 <trave> thats why all those 8bit nintendo loops get recalled in my mind so easilly
23:57:16 <warrie> nooga: then you're either more talented or more practiced than me.
23:57:19 <ehird> warrie: yes, that's pretty obvious, I guess
23:57:27 <ehird> also, I'm absolutely, absolutely useless at playing an instrument
23:57:54 <warrie> ehird: so if someone shifted in key by a little bit between phrases of the national anthem, you'd notice.
23:58:01 <ehird> warrie: Probably not.
23:58:41 <psygnisfive> ehird: have you read anything by dennett or ramachandran?
23:59:14 <warrie> I once had the opportunity to listen to other-smart-guy sing. I was disappointed at his lack of singing ability. I still wonder whether he thinks like me or not.
23:59:44 <ehird> btw, is there ANY person who hasn't come up with the idea of "what if everyone saw colours different to me - i'd never know"?
23:59:51 <ehird> absolutely EVERY person i've talked to thought of that at one point in their lives
00:00:07 <psygnisfive> ehird: indeed, and its a nonsensical question to ask :)
00:00:13 <warrie> ehird: that was more or less settled for me when somebody said we probably perceive colors in the same way.
00:00:19 <ehird> but it's such a -tempting- question to ask
00:00:26 <warrie> I don't think it's nonsensical, but I think it's not well-defined.
00:00:27 <psygnisfive> its a classical philosophical mental experiment
00:00:28 <ehird> i imagine you'd have to work hard NOT thinking about it :P
00:00:48 <oklopol> easy to believe sapif-whorf is false. i mean, if i know some complicated concept, and someone asks me how it works, i'll probably just say "read about it", because it's a big effort to translate anything nontrivial to pretty much any language except predicate logic
00:00:56 <ehird> I'm not sure if it is - "What if you saw what I see as my blue as what I see as my red?"
00:00:59 <oerjan> what if everyone experienced the idea of "what if everyone saw colours different to me - i'd never know" differently? we'd never know
00:00:59 <ehird> THat seems fairly sensical.
00:01:33 <warrie> psygnisfive: when you think of green, one of the things you think of is plants. Do blind people who don't know that plants are green also think of plants when they think of green?
00:01:35 <ehird> psygnisfive: why not?
00:01:51 <warrie> And yes, I did just make a blatant assumption about your brain.
00:01:54 <psygnisfive> warrie: blind people cant think of green, not like we do.
00:02:16 <ehird> psygnisfive: so blind people cannot imagine colour?
00:02:20 <ehird> Can they visualize images like you and I?
00:02:31 <ehird> psygnisfive: Even if they could see and then went blind?
00:02:37 <ehird> They lose their ability to synthesize images in their mind?
00:02:51 <warrie> Blind synaesthetes (that's the word, isn't it) can imagine color, surely.
00:03:21 <psygnisfive> in order to envision any sort of color you need an operating visual cortex
00:03:30 <psygnisfive> specifically, certain subparts of the visual cortex
00:03:38 <ehird> So you can imagine visuals without it but not colours.
00:03:40 <ehird> THE BRAIN MAKES SUCH SENSE
00:03:42 <psygnisfive> some people can get brain damage that makes them color blind
00:04:03 <psygnisfive> not that they see in black and white, as such
00:04:16 <psygnisfive> they just lack any hue information in their cognitive representations
00:04:21 <ehird> I read an article about that
00:04:23 <psygnisfive> other people can lack brightness information
00:04:45 <ehird> psygnisfive: so it's as much grayscale as it is blue, red, etc?
00:04:49 <ehird> i.e. it's none of them?
00:04:52 <ehird> it's just not a component?
00:05:00 <ehird> I really wonder what it looks like for them.
00:05:06 <ehird> But I'll never know unless it happens to me...
00:05:22 <psygnisfive> thats the thing about what we're talking about
00:05:28 <nooga> it's funny that eyes really operate in RGB + brightness
00:05:31 <psygnisfive> thats why the original question is nonsensical
00:05:46 <ehird> Why is the brain so complicated? :\
00:05:58 <warrie> If I went blind due to a cataract, would my ability to think visually be completely unaffected, or enhanced, or something else?
00:06:04 <psygnisfive> it seems like the EXPERIENCE of red is _nothing more than_ the association between some activation patterns in the visual cortex and some activation patterns related to red things
00:06:11 <warrie> nooga: RGB being cones, brightness being rods?
00:06:50 <psygnisfive> what it means to experience red is nothing more than conjuring up associations with red things
00:06:55 <oklopol> i have a pretty separate place to see imagined things in
00:07:00 <nooga> i have problem with my left eye
00:07:01 <psygnisfive> thats why it makes no sense to ask "what if someone experienced colors differently than me?"
00:07:08 <oklopol> also i can think them in the real world somewhere
00:07:11 <warrie> More interestingly, if I were blind from birth due to something wrong with my eyes, would I still have my visual thinking skills?
00:07:12 <nooga> or rather the nerve
00:07:18 <ehird> The visuals you get when closing your eyes and rubbing them a lot.
00:07:24 <ehird> I have a few patterns...
00:07:29 <oklopol> if i'm a bit drunk i can sometimes make them prevent me from seeing behing them
00:07:29 <ehird> Diagonally-ridged squares, repeating...
00:07:35 <ehird> Swirling electricy lightning...
00:07:36 <psygnisfive> the sound sensors of your brain takes over the visual centers
00:07:43 <warrie> psygnisfive: would they be replaced with equivalent tactile thinking skills or something?
00:07:43 <oklopol> (my brain is more controlled when i'm drunk)
00:08:00 <psygnisfive> thats just pressure activating the light sensors in your retina
00:08:10 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Phosphene_artistic_depiction.gif Not like this...
00:08:12 <ehird> It's far more subtle.
00:08:17 <ehird> psygnisfive: Right, but
00:08:18 <psygnisfive> warrie: your audio-processing abilities get better
00:08:21 <ehird> How come I have only like
00:08:24 <ehird> 3-5 patterns in it
00:08:27 <ehird> and they repeat in cycles?
00:08:36 <ehird> Another pattern is randomly coloured dots flickering about,.
00:08:45 <psygnisfive> ehird: who knows. it could just be your brains interpretation of the phosphenes
00:08:55 <psygnisfive> hey if you wanna experience something REALLY weird
00:09:01 <warrie> psygnisfive: I can imagine feeling a solid of revolution just as well as I can imagine seeing one. I don't think I can imagine hearing one, though.
00:09:03 <nooga> i observe something uncommon
00:09:07 <psygnisfive> look all the way to the left as far as you can
00:09:22 <warrie> And touch your eye very gently?
00:09:31 <psygnisfive> then, with your right hand, press the right most part of your right eye, just next to the right side of your right orbit
00:09:52 <warrie> Can my right eye be closed?
00:09:52 <psygnisfive> you can actually see the finger impression
00:09:54 <nooga> i have neurological problem with my left eye's nerve and sometimes i loose vision in that eye, but it happens in a funny way
00:10:14 <psygnisfive> not only that, but the image is in a part of your visual space that you NEVER SEE WITH
00:10:15 <ehird> Lol, that's fun. How's that work?
00:10:15 <nooga> first, i see everyhing a bit more vivid with my left eye
00:10:22 <psygnisfive> ehird: same as pressing your eyes when closed
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00:10:33 <nooga> then i loose color depth
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00:11:11 <nooga> and everything looks like in 16 color palette
00:11:33 <nooga> and then everything is gray and i can see only bright objects
00:11:44 <psygnisfive> press gently against your upper or lower eyelid in various places
00:11:54 <psygnisfive> the imagine in your visual field should shift
00:12:02 <nooga> and then i can see only black&white flickering grain
00:12:04 <oklopol> nooga: so you're an eye-guy
00:12:17 <oklopol> you just had to get labelled huh?
00:12:17 <psygnisfive> not like you've looked in a different direction, but rather like someones put weird lenses over your eyes
00:12:41 <nooga> and then in reverse everything backs to normal
00:12:58 <ehird> psygnisfive: doesn't work for me
00:13:07 <oklopol> psygnisfive: isn't that just my eye moving around?
00:13:07 <nooga> + brain combines that black&white noise with the vision from the right eye
00:13:10 <warrie> How many of you have ever been blind in part of your central vision?
00:13:31 <psygnisfive> just making the image appear in different places on your retina
00:13:39 <oklopol> psygnisfive: well of course it works. but yeah that looks pretty fun
00:13:51 <psygnisfive> the weird part is that the image moves but your eyeball doesnt, so your brain starts going "whoa whoa whoa wtf is all this"
00:14:07 <warrie> That's happened to me at least twice, I think, as part of a migraine.
00:14:19 <ehird> I have never had a migrane. Woo.
00:14:23 <psygnisfive> also interesting, but far more complicated: if you wear glasses that invert your field of vision
00:14:40 <oklopol> invert your field of vision?!?
00:14:43 <psygnisfive> initially you will be disoriented and itll be hard to interact with the world
00:14:57 <psygnisfive> but after a week or so, youll operate normally
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00:15:08 <ehird> psygnisfive: really?
00:15:11 <ehird> how does that work
00:15:16 <warrie> Kind of interesting, covering visual stimuli with the blind spots and seeing how your brain fills it in.
00:15:18 <psygnisfive> not only will your operate normally, but you wont be able to tell anything is off
00:15:35 <oklopol> right, i thought you meant like if someone wears inverting glasses because of some problem with eyes :D
00:15:48 <oklopol> but yeah i talked about that here a while ago
00:15:50 <ehird> psygnisfive: are you sure?
00:15:51 <psygnisfive> ehird: it works because your brain just remaps all the associations
00:15:52 <ehird> i really can't imagine doing that
00:15:53 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure ehird was here
00:15:58 <trave> horizontally AND vertically inverted
00:16:13 <psygnisfive> horiontal, vertical, or a rotation, it doesnt matter
00:16:24 <oklopol> that's not very surprising
00:16:38 <psygnisfive> your brain just remaps the retinal inputs to fit the way it represents space
00:16:47 <psygnisfive> i mean, think about it, they're just wires in your brain
00:16:51 <ehird> psygnisfive: will you see things "the right way" again?
00:17:05 <warrie> I think I read about someone who was colorblind and also had synaesthesia. He saw yellows instead of reds and greens, but there were also some stimuli that caused perception of red and green.
00:17:07 <oklopol> but, what i'd like to know is whether you can learn to do the transition fast
00:17:12 <psygnisfive> i mean, consider this: the image on your retina is ALREADY upside down
00:17:18 <nooga> my wires going from the left eye are fucked up and tend to loose bandwith
00:17:22 <oklopol> say you invert vision everytime things start to look normal
00:17:27 <trave> the surprising idea behind it is just that your brain can eventually rewire itself to automatically respond, without having to cognitavely decide, i want to go up, but i need to point down.
00:17:37 <ehird> psygnisfive: yeah I don't get that... so...
00:17:41 <psygnisfive> also interesting: when you take the glasses OFF
00:17:43 <ehird> is space actually "upside down" to what we see?
00:18:06 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i'm pretty sure you're wrong, have to test that
00:18:25 <psygnisfive> you guys should read some dennett and ramachandran
00:19:29 <psygnisfive> btw ehird: think of the question more like this:
00:19:44 <psygnisfive> you can rotate an imagine on a graph, and say its upside down
00:20:05 <psygnisfive> but what does it mean to rotate the graph itself? it means nothing.
00:20:18 <trave> which came first, the braincell or the galaxy?
00:20:21 <psygnisfive> the graph defines space, so it cant be rotated since rotation is a relation with regard to space
00:20:29 <nooga> ehird: world -> lens -> image upside down -> sensor -> invert in brain -> image of the world as it is
00:20:47 <psygnisfive> so there is no "world as it is" in terms of up or down
00:21:05 <ehird> TOMORROW: More brain fuckery.
00:21:07 <psygnisfive> and the brain only cares about the topological relations
00:21:53 <trave> have you seen those side-by photo comparisons between galaxies and braincells? they are like 2 peas in a pod.
00:22:04 <ehird> trave: it's just happy coincidence
00:22:51 <ehird> bye, see you all tomorrow
00:23:20 <nooga> i saw a fractal that looked exactly like nebula
00:23:50 <warrie> I was going to say that I can no longer think of a mathematical formula (as in those things they teach you individually in math class) that I can't visualize, but then I realize I've never really tried to visualize d(h/l) = (ldh - hdl)/l^2.
00:25:35 <oklopol> trave: i haven't seen link
00:25:53 <oklopol> warrie: stop with the calculus, calculus is borign
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00:27:28 <oklopol> trave_: i haven't seen <insert some kinda pausing character> link
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00:28:19 <trave> oh, i'll go see if i can track it down, one sec
00:28:45 <warrie> nooga: like http://www.superliminal.com/fractals/bbrot/island200.500.1000bb.jpg?
00:29:44 <trave> http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/pc/neuron-galaxy.jpg
00:30:54 <warrie> trave: the main similarity is that there are stringy things with clumps along them.
00:31:49 <oklopol> warrie: OR we're just part of some larger guy's brain?
00:31:53 <trave> everything down to the atomic level has way more gaps between "things" than there are things.
00:32:00 <nooga> warrie: not that one
00:32:32 <nooga> warrie: but quite simmilar
00:32:38 <warrie> oklopol: I don't think brain particles slowly drift toward other brain particles due to gravity. :-)
00:33:50 <nooga> every object has a gravity field
00:33:55 <oklopol> warrie: no, the interactions are faster. this guy thinks very slowly.
00:34:34 <oklopol> you know, actually we die because our brain collapses into singularity when we grow old.
00:34:46 <warrie> nooga: yes, but intracranial gravity is overwhelmed by electromagnetic noise.
00:36:14 * warrie ponders gravity at small scales
00:36:58 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3AmC9tNDro
00:37:11 <nooga> "Pickover attractor 10 mln vertices 30 FPS
00:37:14 <warrie> I've decided that at small scales, in a liquid, gravity is equivalent to the pressure gradient it causes.
00:37:39 <nooga> i wonder on what machine
00:40:13 <nooga> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
00:40:48 <nooga> i guess i'll just fall asleep immediately
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00:47:15 <trave> have they fixed the LHC yet? when are they gonna collide me some particles?
00:47:31 <psygnisfive> they're going to do their first collision early sprinh 09
00:47:51 <trave> that leak was a huge setback
00:48:39 <psygnisfive> i mean, if containment fails during a run, thats really bad
00:49:03 <trave> in attempt to prevent other crazies like that girl who committed suicide cause she thought we were all going to be sucked into its black hole?
00:49:22 <psygnisfive> im in support of people killing themselves if they're that stupid
00:49:34 <psygnisfive> hopefully she did this before she had little baby idiots, yes?
00:50:06 <trave> geez, why not just wait until IT kills you, sheesh
00:50:44 <psygnisfive> i mean, obviously SHE was stupid and didnt think about that
00:51:12 <psygnisfive> bbut if she knew why black holes were fucked up, it makes more sense to kill yourself now than be sucked into one
00:51:23 <psygnisfive> but if you understood that much about black holes, you wouldn't be worried about the LHC.
00:51:29 <trave> I personally think that the transition into a black hole is without effect to the one experiencing it
00:51:53 <psygnisfive> in the coolest way imaginable. but also the most horrifying.
00:52:04 <trave> its the observer who witnesses the "death"
00:52:22 <psygnisfive> the observer probably never would witness it
00:52:31 <psygnisfive> http://fora.tv/2008/02/19/Neil_DeGrasse_Tyson_Death_by_Black_Hole
00:52:41 <trave> hm, just making outlandish assumptions :]
00:52:52 <trave> (in reference to me)
00:53:02 <psygnisfive> you're also not familiar with relativity ;)
00:53:32 <psygnisfive> time slows down with greater gravitational effects. so from the outside, someone closer to the black hole moves slower
00:54:47 <trave> well if the point of relevance is my conscious, perhaps the matter around me being visually stretched into oblivion to an outside observer is painless?
00:55:14 <psygnisfive> but you'd be stretched to oblivion along with it
00:57:08 <psygnisfive> this guy, tyson, is like an astrophysics popstar
00:57:17 <trave> i just dont particularly believe that black holes are as destructive as they are labeled, there is one at the center of every galaxy. :D
00:57:46 <trave> its a creative force via its "destructive" nature.
00:57:55 <psygnisfive> destructive as they're labeled by COMMON FOLK
00:58:23 <psygnisfive> because the commonfolk think that black holes will just suck anything and everything in to them period end of story
00:58:50 <trave> i guess myself being a simple minded individual, i likely relate to that level of thought
00:58:50 <psygnisfive> that the sun is going to be compressed into a black hole
00:59:03 <psygnisfive> and say omg we have to stop it, the earth will get sucked in and we'll all die!
00:59:17 <psygnisfive> whereas a physicist would say, omg we have to stop it, the earth will freeze over without the heat from the sun
00:59:32 <psygnisfive> because the physicist knows that the gravity from the sun-cum-blackhole would be unchanged
00:59:46 <psygnisfive> whereas the lay person things that the gravity will all of the sudden because infinitely unstoppable
01:00:56 <psygnisfive> this is why people are worried about black holes at the LHC
01:01:21 <psygnisfive> they think that the moment you create a black whole of ANY size, whoomf, everything gets sucked in
01:05:18 <psygnisfive> also, i just messaged him on facebook asking him about whether or not naked singularities were blackholes or not
01:06:15 <trave> cool. :] Ive run across one of his videos before, forget what it was about though
01:07:32 <trave> this asteroid scenario hes talking about is creepy :D
01:10:54 <trave> what are your thoughts on illuminati/skull and bones type brotherhoods?
01:10:55 <psygnisfive> "peeps... if you're over 30... means people.. forgive me"
01:15:12 <oklopol> i've been unproductive all week :<
01:17:23 <trave> its a holiday week
01:17:52 <oklopol> holidays make really no diff to me
01:18:08 <oklopol> i don't go to lectures that regularly
01:18:21 <trave> me either, other than an additional reason for my laziness
01:19:04 <oklopol> holidays are no excuse not to study
01:19:28 <trave> its true, i just look for excuses
01:19:50 <oklopol> yeah i guess that's pretty common
01:20:04 <oklopol> in fact, i only said that because i wanted you to tell me you're doing nothing productive either.
01:21:06 <oklopol> i've recently been pretty scared by the fact i'm probably not the worlds best at everything i'm good at.
01:21:35 <oklopol> that's a very scary thought
01:21:43 <oklopol> that there's a human being out there that owns me.
01:21:55 <trave> everyone has nitches of talents, i think its more important to learn how to leverage on eachothers strengths, instead of everyone trying to perform as one man bands
01:22:37 <trave> the ones that own us are the bankers via our bank account balances
01:22:58 <oklopol> trave: no no you got it all wrong, life is all about being the superior individual averaged over relevant talents for some definition of relevant.
01:23:10 <trave> and how easilly willing we are to agree to wildly unfair fees and rates
01:25:10 <trave> i am innerly accutely aware of my pwndness, but outwardly have to present myself to my boss as one who pwns
01:25:41 <trave> talent is highly bound to time.
01:26:20 <trave> but time and effort are ruled by interest and entertainment
01:26:26 <oklopol> pwnage inside a small group like a company is trivial, the hard part is being better than all the savants with some kinda mental issues out there.
01:27:44 <trave> i like to imagine that after death, existing as higher conciousness, we are able to process some crazy statistics on history
01:28:19 <oklopol> i envisioned something like that as a kid
01:28:22 <trave> there will be like a ubergoogle, that you can type: who got laid by the most chicks with freckles
01:28:59 <oklopol> i've only been laid by a few chicks with freckles :|
01:29:17 <oklopol> trave: are you by any chance a girl with freckles?
01:29:40 <oklopol> for a second there i had a great idea
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01:30:26 <trave_> man, my wireless routers signal is so weak
01:30:29 <oklopol> you were the one that came in today for some other meaning of "esoteric"?
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01:31:37 <oklopol> i have a pretty good memory for nicks, but it's somewhat vague for new ones.
01:31:56 <oklopol> actually a better memory for nicks than real names
01:32:58 <oklopol> have you ever had like a math course
01:33:19 <oklopol> where something was told without a clear definition, and then there's a question about it that's trivial, and just requires a formal proof.
01:33:36 <oklopol> but you can't be formal, because that part wasn't given a formal definition
01:34:27 <oklopol> (or at least you hadn't read the materials that well, and are pretty sure there wasn't a good definition somewhere!)
01:35:41 <trave> my level of math was highschool algebra
01:35:52 <oklopol> i hate proving trivial things, seems like such a waste to do the manual labor of finding a proof in the language the problem is given in, when my intuitive gadgets are clearly superior
01:38:08 <oklopol> trave: mine is that plus some additional calculus, incidetally calculus is so uninteresting i don't really care for knowing it.
01:39:40 <oklopol> i'm running out of random things to say
01:39:51 <oklopol> probably should retry sleeping or program something
01:40:28 <trave> is calc mainly for like statistical processing? im not even really aware of all the different types besides geometry
01:41:20 <trave> its like ways of finding out levels of force needed to push a block over another block, an junk?
01:41:23 <oklopol> well actually analysis, which afaiu is a superset of calculus; basically about infinite continuous things.
01:41:45 <oklopol> and what it's for is not a well-formed question
01:42:29 <oklopol> i have no idea about applications for physics
01:42:53 <trave> the complexity of all potentials baffles my mind sometimes to the point where it feels almost pointless because of all the points.
01:42:57 <oklopol> well, i could probably do quite well with intuition, but i don't actually know anything.
01:43:33 <oklopol> also nice use of "point" there
01:44:20 <trave> hrm, like needing to juggle too many balls i guess rather, i need to fine tune my target items for attention, i feel too scattered sometimes that i dont take care of anything instead.
01:44:58 <trave> and chat on IRC all day instead of working :D
01:45:00 <oklopol> are you referring to subjects having too much content to be learnable, or wha
01:45:36 <trave> um just abstractly as always, more really about my lifes responsibilities, like taxes, and insurance and rent, and projects, and etc.
01:46:14 <trave> really there isnt all THAT much, its just laying them out on a scale, and only observing one at a time, instead of being overwhelmed
01:46:56 <oklopol> taxes, insurance and rent take, taken together, about -0.00% of your time.
01:47:18 <oklopol> (negative sign and the floating point representation for emphasis)
01:47:41 <trave> i have a tendency to let things slide because there is too much to do, where instead, regardless of what item i pick up, picking up something is infinitely more productive.
01:48:05 <trave> the beast feeds on negligence
01:48:33 <oklopol> what i do is i don't give a shit if things get done, i just take a random thing and start doing it.
01:48:56 <oklopol> of course only refers to studying and other mental exercise, or some kinda project for the fun of it.
01:49:00 <trave> captialism counts on the public's laziness, to bind them into the "punishing" contract
01:49:08 <oklopol> my life doesn't really contain much of that real stuff
01:49:48 <trave> but im finding it to be more critical to resolve my past neglects before the axe comes down. :]
01:50:32 <trave> which in itself feels pointless, because money is so arbitrary, like this whole bailout fiasco, why do they get bailed out for designing such a self defeating model of commerce?
01:50:32 <oklopol> i don't care about the past/future
01:51:05 <oklopol> trave: hard to say, i don't watch pokemon
01:52:07 <oklopol> anyway, money isn't really something one needs to work for, i mean, the amount of money you get from one month of working will pretty much pay for a whole year.
01:52:13 <trave> i think that there are some deep rooted secret brotherhood methodologies of fear and control of the ignorant
01:53:36 <trave> money is only a frustration in my life, the girl i married burns it, and i am left with the shame of not having enough to pay to my owners
01:53:56 <trave> the men behind the curtains.
01:55:09 <trave> much like a movie director or whatever, they are not the puppets speaking the eloquent lines of verse to the public, they are calling some carefully planned moves in the chess match of world power,
01:55:11 <oklopol> i'm pretty ignorant, and i'm sure as hell controlled by no one.
01:55:36 <oklopol> not being able to pay is not a shame if you have a reason you yourself deem good enough.
01:57:11 <oklopol> applies for anything really, no need to feel something if it's not useful.
01:57:26 <trave> controlling the masses through Gold, Oil, and Drugs, you don't have to imprison the people in physical walls.
01:57:40 <trave> in G.O.D. we trust
01:57:49 <oklopol> i don't know what "controlling the masses" means.
01:58:03 <oklopol> but that's clever, probably a well-known backronym?
01:58:49 <oklopol> anyway, i don't think i'd be "controlled" in any way were i incarcerated.
01:59:07 <oklopol> in fact that would make my life more free, right now i'm controlled by my loose network of friends.
01:59:50 <trave> control over the wallet, stomach, and mind?
02:00:07 <trave> religion is control of the mind
02:00:20 <oklopol> controlling wallet and stomach is only control if you care about those
02:00:21 <trave> not everyone is trapped in that, but MANY i know are. :]
02:00:46 <oklopol> but religious people are idiots, in my eyes they are an artifact of the past.
02:01:23 <oklopol> and while i do care about how much money i have, if i felt i had little money, i would stop caring. just like i like moving around, but if i lost my legs i'd just do more thinking.
02:01:33 <oklopol> ultimately it's only the mind that is needed for happiness.
02:01:55 <oklopol> well, not sure i could do without any IO :o
02:02:07 <oklopol> guess i'm not perfect in that way
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02:03:24 <oklopol> i wish there were more channels i could rant on.
02:03:41 <oklopol> but i just have finnish chans where i wouldn't get kb'd, and those are asleep :|
02:09:45 <trave> ive got a headache and really need to close this laptop. it was a pleasure chatting with you fellas though
02:12:43 <oklopol> maybe you'll even see a short conversation about esolangs if you hang around long enough.
02:12:51 <oklopol> hmm, i'll try sleeping too ->
02:14:01 <oklopol> i just had an epiphany about noprob
02:14:20 <oklopol> i removed probability variables, because they made no sense.
02:14:32 <oklopol> now, all variables have a "probability"
02:14:57 <oklopol> meaning "the portion of models for the 3sat instance where that variable is true"
02:15:13 <oklopol> this, and only this can be used for conditional things
02:15:27 <oklopol> the problem is, when you add new clauses, all probabilities change
02:15:55 <oklopol> but, i could just have prolog's cut, or a similar thing, doesn't really fit the paradigm, but it's very practical, and prology :P
02:16:31 <oklopol> really all it needs to do it fix probabilities.
02:17:30 <oklopol> which will get pretty complicated if you use those variables in further clauses, because other variables will have their probabilities calculated on the probabilities of the fixed variables, instead of the assumed 50% chance for (as yet) undefined variables
02:18:18 <oklopol> probably not making any sense, but i'm pretty sure i have something that works right here, so maybe you'll be seeing specs in like five years from now? may be a bit optimistic
02:18:27 <oklopol> sleep, hopefully no ideas this time ->
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02:20:29 <warrie> Hmph. I just went to the web site of the Triple Nine Society. It said this: "Hey, come and join us! We have smart people, and you're smart enough to join! Oh, wait, you're not 18 or older? Go away."
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02:36:49 <GregorR> Is it made from tree bark?
02:39:16 <psygnisfive> i joke that its called "russian caravan" because they get it from the back Evgeny's town-and-country
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03:34:39 <psygnisfive> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ayyPzuHGNU
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04:27:51 <jayCampbell> fresh off the press http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:JayCampbell/smatiny.rb
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04:39:38 <psygnisfive_> is that ive installed it on my grandparents computer and they've been using it for 5 months now without any issues.
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04:50:02 <psygnisfive> observation: natural language is the programming language of the human mind
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04:58:35 <GregorR> That's not an observation.
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05:22:17 <GregorR> Anybody want to help me make an AJAX filesystem for JSMIPS?
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05:58:55 <jayCampbell> maybe permission metadata stored in a yaml dotfile
05:59:26 <jayCampbell> or JSON'd outside the served document root
06:07:01 <GregorR> No permission data necessary.
06:07:08 <GregorR> I just want an entire directory to be readable.
06:11:49 <GregorR> I thought AJAX couldn't read binaries.
06:14:56 <jayCampbell> it will be hard to parse directory listing output from joe random web server (if indexes are even turned on)
06:15:21 <jayCampbell> so you'd want a php, or a file-of-files, or hardcoded paths
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06:20:46 <Asztal> which is why gopher is a better choice!
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13:24:21 <ehird> i really want a nextcube and a bebox.
13:25:02 <ehird> obsolete, awesome technology is... um, awesome.
13:26:25 <ehird> also, i could run the original WorldWideWeb app.
13:26:44 <ehird> i'd need a slick black and white crt for the true experience, though :-P
13:56:36 <nooga> i always liked those green phosphor displays
13:56:48 <nooga> or those simple, orange lcds
13:59:05 <ehird> actually, the only pretty CRT i've ever seen = next to a nextube
13:59:14 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Premier_serveur_Web.jpeg
14:04:12 <nooga> what is that machine?
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14:13:41 <ehird> on which the first browser was first coded
14:13:50 <ehird> it's the company steve jobs made when he was fired from apple
14:14:08 <ehird> modern os x is based on NeXTStep with a kinky love affair of other unixes and older macs
14:14:24 <ehird> the comp in that machine is the first web server
14:14:37 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NeXTstation.jpg 'nother one
14:14:47 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NeXTSTEP_desktop.jpg nextstep
14:19:54 <nooga> looks like blackbox
14:20:23 <ehird> it predates blackbox, iirc
14:20:30 <ehird> late 80s - early 90s
14:20:36 <ehird> it does kind of look similar
14:21:44 <ehird> BeOS is also awesome and defunct... it's like the amiga, except modern and better... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BeOS_Desktop.png ... and the bebox: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeBox
14:21:47 <ehird> shame they went defunct
14:21:52 <ehird> their browser's errors were haiku :-)
14:24:27 <nooga> when we were trying to write distributed RTOS we almost copied BeOS API
14:25:02 <ehird> of course, the best computer is the smalltalk-based computer i will one day [not] make ;)
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14:26:04 <nooga> smalltalk based computer? :D
14:26:42 <nooga> how would that look like?
14:26:59 <ehird> nooga: like a computer, i guess :) Smalltalk is basically an OS...
14:27:12 <ehird> just doesn't work well as the only one, obviously, because it's not used for that
14:27:19 <ehird> still, it wouldn't be especially hard
14:27:21 <ehird> and it would be nice
14:36:08 <nooga> but you mean a CPU specially built for smalltalk as a smalltalk computer?
14:36:13 <nooga> or just a smalltalk OS
14:36:26 <ehird> a machine built for smalltalk running a specially-crafted smalltalk OS
14:36:32 <ehird> it would be awesome.
14:36:58 <nooga> FPGA and set to work :D
14:37:16 <ehird> bah, it was awesome until you talked about work
14:43:47 <nooga> what is this whole smalltalk about?
14:59:11 <nooga> ha, running haiku in qemu
15:09:50 <ehird> nooga: smalltalk invented quite a few things and perfected others.
15:10:01 <ehird> it invented model-view-controller in its original GUI
15:10:13 <ehird> it perfected message-sending object orientation, from simula, except way better
15:10:29 <ehird> it perfected a blend of simplistic syntax yet easy to read -
15:10:43 <ehird> syntax on a postcard:
15:11:37 <ehird> nooga: http://web.archive.org/web/20080129122256/http://www.esug.org/whyusesmalltalktoteachoop/smalltalksyntaxonapostcard/
15:11:42 <ehird> [[they reorganized their site :\]]
15:12:09 <ehird> it just about perfected automatic and manual refactoring, and code editing
15:12:11 <ehird> with its object browser
15:12:20 <ehird> it's a great, great language and system
15:13:06 <ehird> nooga: it invented complete access at almost every leve
15:13:15 <ehird> you can view the source to all methods on Object, add them, change them
15:13:21 <ehird> some are optimized out, e.g. ifTrue:/ifFalse:
15:13:25 <ehird> and some have <primitive> in them
15:13:28 <ehird> but that's very few
15:16:19 <nooga> that example is undecipherable
15:16:45 <ehird> nooga: that example isn't meaningful
15:16:48 <ehird> it's just all the syntax
15:16:52 <ehird> the first bit is a comment
15:17:09 <ehird> it's a bit obscure because it's not very useful :-P
15:17:15 <ehird> the point is, tohugh
15:17:19 <ehird> that that is -all- the smalltalk syntax
15:17:23 <ehird> except for special stuff like primitives
15:19:37 <nooga> Squeak is developed by Disney
15:24:04 <ehird> its an open source thing now
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15:25:56 <ehird> the default gui is ugly.
15:25:59 <ehird> it can be improved massively.
15:26:11 <nooga> i read about smalltalk and it's features
15:26:26 <nooga> and it turns out that ruby has almost all of them too
15:26:33 <ehird> not the important ones
15:26:39 <ehird> it basically borrows some of the object model
15:26:56 <ehird> but it does not have the complete object garden or the immensely powerful environment
15:27:02 <ehird> or, indeed, a lot of the elegance
15:27:06 <ehird> since ruby is a lot more "normal"
15:27:37 <ehird> i like ruby. but it can't touch smalltalk
15:30:42 <ehird> modern smalltalk is a bit of a walled garden, but it's ok
15:30:54 <ehird> you can access the network and the filesystem, maybe even hook up to devices
15:30:58 <ehird> from there you can basically import stuff in
15:31:17 <ehird> right now i'm deciding what the best way is to get smalltalk to call a block on incoming mail
15:31:26 <ehird> prolly something with comsatd
15:34:03 <nooga> is smalltalk needed in the industry?
15:34:55 <ehird> like what? it is used quite a lot by companies, esp. in the financial industry for some reaosn
15:35:02 <ehird> and it's resurging in popularity a bit
15:35:12 <ehird> quite a bit thanks to the seaside continuation web framework - http://seaside.st
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15:44:32 <nooga> leeks very web2.0-ish
15:45:05 <ehird> just the site does
15:45:37 <ehird> it basically came from deliberately doing the opposite of everyone else: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaside_(software)#Philosophy_of_Seaside
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15:53:37 <Slereah_> CAPSLOCK IS CRUISECONTROL FOR COOL
16:18:44 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal").
16:49:35 <Slereah_> The Orc manual has BNF syntax.
16:50:21 <Slereah_> String: "orc", "ceci n'est pas une |"
16:57:05 <GregorR> Admittedly, 'ls' isn't the most impressive of utilities ...
16:58:27 <GregorR> Next step: bash. Then ... THE WORLD
16:59:10 <Slereah_> What, even that really smelly country?
17:00:00 <GregorR> Psssst ... this is where you're supposed to say "You know the one I mean."
17:00:31 <Slereah_> Only if I was a nerd quoting Futurama!
17:02:26 <GregorR> ehird: Not uploaded yet X-P
17:02:27 <ehird> for everyone else: http://codu.org/jsmips//
17:02:40 <ehird> hey GregorR, does it run plan9 yet????
17:02:53 <GregorR> JSMIPS IS AN OS IT DOES NOT RUN OSES *slap*
17:03:03 <ehird> GregorR it is not a good os it needs plan 9 power.
17:03:22 <ehird> btw, does backspace work yet
17:03:50 * ehird forkbombs his browser.
17:05:02 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, but so's your face.
17:05:11 <GregorR> Yeah, but so's your MOM'S face.
17:05:14 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, but so's your face.
17:05:23 <GregorR> Yeah, but so's your MOM'S MOM'S face.
17:05:29 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, but so's your DAD'S face.
17:05:39 <GregorR> Yeah, but so's your MOM'S MOM'S MOM'S face.
17:05:46 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, but so's your DAD'S MOM'S DAD'S face.
17:06:04 <GregorR> My dad's mom's dad is dead D'8
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17:06:27 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, but so's your face.
17:06:57 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, but so's your face.
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17:25:47 <ehird> i said that in ##nomic.
17:29:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, nice work on jsmips, yes I know it isn't an emulator, but an OS emulator rather
17:29:18 <AnMaster> as in emulating a linux(?) system on MIPS
17:29:45 <GregorR> It's emulating the MIPS chip, just not a full MIPS system.
17:29:47 <AnMaster> GregorR, so the goal is to to run any linux binaries for MIPS?
17:30:01 <GregorR> Just vaguely UNIXish programs compiled for JSMIPS.
17:30:19 <AnMaster> GregorR, oh not real mips binaries?
17:30:27 <GregorR> Real MIPS binaries for a fake MIPS system.
17:30:29 <AnMaster> also what is the compiler you use?
17:30:59 <ehird> GregorR: nice monologue
17:31:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, what about porting wget to it?
17:31:11 <AnMaster> or is network stack too hard in js?
17:31:25 <GregorR> A true network stack would be impossible.
17:31:33 <GregorR> (Seeing as that JS can't network)
17:31:38 <GregorR> I was planning on making an ajax.h
17:31:53 <GregorR> 'ts about the best I can do network-wise.
17:31:56 <AnMaster> GregorR, can't you run javascript free standing?
17:31:58 <GregorR> Networked apps really aren't my goal :P
17:32:04 <ehird> GregorR: you can do proper network stacks
17:32:11 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure there is some such thing
17:32:12 <ehird> make it ajax to a proxy php script
17:32:14 <GregorR> Yeah, but I don't know if such implementations have (compatible) network stacks.
17:32:16 <ehird> that does proper tcp/ucp
17:32:20 <ehird> and uuencode stuff either way
17:32:26 <ehird> you could run irssi
17:32:47 <GregorR> ehird: Yeah, I'll be running Firefox in JS any day now :P
17:32:50 <AnMaster> GregorR, also what did ehird said? he is on ignore
17:33:06 <GregorR> AnMaster: You're on his /ignore too, enjoy this disjunct discourse.
17:33:07 <ehird> GregorR: YES YOU WILL
17:33:24 <ehird> AnMaster is a fat stinky poo poo who cannot see this
17:33:28 <ehird> ^ 1337 h4x0r skillz
17:33:35 <ehird> oklopol: what do you mean, cheesecake?
17:33:35 <AnMaster> GregorR, so what was the issue then?
17:35:14 <AnMaster> tried at http://codu.org/jsmips/sh.html
17:35:30 <GregorR> AnMaster: I haven't pushed my most recent changes, they're a bit ... complicated and far-reaching :P
17:35:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, what is wrong with making that public?
17:36:28 <GregorR> AnMaster: Nothing, it'll just take me a few minutes and I'm lazy ;)
17:46:25 <GregorR> http://codu.org/jsmips/system.html
17:49:10 <GregorR> (BTW, the long load time when you first load up the page and when you firs type 'ls' is the AJAX more than the actual software)
17:50:28 <ehird> unsupported syscall 59
17:50:44 <ehird> GregorR: totally rad.
17:51:02 <GregorR> What did you do to get that?
17:51:09 <ehird> Pressed "start mips".
17:51:17 <ehird> It seems to be working now.
17:51:24 <ehird> With some unimplemented syscall stuff.
17:52:18 <ehird> GregorR: Wow, "bin/sh" works.
17:52:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, not my fault, rather that of the page
17:52:45 <AnMaster> you can't copy paste the output
17:52:47 <GregorR> AnMaster: Yeah, I'm forced to keep focus on an invisible input element ...
17:53:03 <GregorR> AnMaster: You can get it by clicking on the text box "full-line input for ..."
17:53:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, anyway I get a unimplemented syscall and then mips exited
17:53:41 <GregorR> AnMaster: OK, copy the output using the trick I just said :P
17:53:47 <AnMaster> Unsupported syscall 59 at 4204784
17:54:16 <fizzie> Maybe it's just a script reloading issue?
17:54:37 <AnMaster> Unimplemented syscall: sigaltstack
17:54:37 <AnMaster> sigaltstack(2) failed with: Not supported
17:54:37 <AnMaster> Unimplemented syscall: tcgetattr
17:55:09 <ehird> http://codu.org/jsmips/server/dir.php im in ur code, looking at yer code
17:55:22 <GregorR> ehird: You realize that JS code is generated, right?
17:55:33 <GregorR> AnMaster: I'm well aware :P
17:55:43 <ehird> http://codu.org/jsmips/server/dir.php?f=./bin/sh
17:55:49 <ehird> /4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAHQ
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17:56:14 <GregorR> AnMaster: It allows access via AJAX to the JSMIPS filesystem.
17:56:53 <GregorR> jayCampbell: Only because I used the simplest solution possible :P
17:57:09 <GregorR> AnMaster: Even when I implement rm, you won't be able to remove things from the server :P
17:57:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, odd set doesn't list PATH=/bin
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17:58:30 <AnMaster> since it doesn't accept export FOO=bar
17:58:51 <AnMaster> haven't seen a sh like that for long
17:59:20 <GregorR> Easier to compile on wonko systems ;)
17:59:36 <GregorR> I made bash compile but it doesn't run >_O
17:59:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, I hope this will become POSIX.1-2008 certified some day ;)
18:00:05 <AnMaster> GregorR, why is there no libc btw?
18:00:23 <GregorR> I didn't want to write a DYNAMIC ELF loader in JS :P
18:00:28 <AnMaster> GregorR, is the server side source of it public?
18:00:56 <GregorR> https://codu.org/projects/jsmips/hg/
18:01:05 <jayCampbell> as a data point, this is firefox on XP running system.html:
18:01:26 <ehird> jayCampbell: This is why middle-button pasting is retarded.
18:01:44 <AnMaster> also: middle mouse pasting rocks
18:02:04 <AnMaster> so yes ehird would hate it (he isn't on ignore atm)
18:02:21 <ehird> jayCampbell: That's needed.
18:02:28 <GregorR> If anybody has a solution, that'd rock. I don't have one though :(
18:02:35 <ehird> GregorR: it's not really possible
18:02:39 <ehird> i coded that fancy input
18:02:57 <ehird> that's why it sucks, AnMaster, btw
18:03:04 <ehird> obviously my bad influence
18:03:07 <jayCampbell> system.html in firefox on XP: http://shup.com/Shup/86338/screencap-Mozilla-Firefox-108102710221.png
18:03:12 <ehird> i hate COPYING AND PASTING
18:03:13 <ehird> type it out like a REAL MAN
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18:03:23 <ehird> jayCampbell: yeah and? :P
18:04:01 <ehird> that's expected output.
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18:04:10 <ehird> that's what we all get
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18:05:08 <GregorR> Hey, I've got a solution 8-D
18:05:29 <ehird> GregorR: what is it?
18:05:31 <ehird> i'll tell you why it doesn't work
18:05:40 <GregorR> I just made it focus when you click on the <div>
18:05:46 <GregorR> And it certainly seems to work :P
18:05:49 <ehird> well, that's a boring solution.
18:06:00 <ehird> what about clicking a button
18:06:04 <ehird> you should be able to type right after
18:06:10 <ehird> better solution: unfocus when you click on blank spac
18:06:13 <GregorR> All three buttons cause it to refocus.
18:06:40 <ehird> do i have to implement backspace?
18:06:49 <ehird> and cursor positioning.
18:07:16 <ehird> btw, i just copied the screen easily
18:07:19 <ehird> select screen, edit->copy
18:07:27 <ehird> of course, i doubt AnMaster has any menus
18:07:33 <ehird> being h a r d c o r e
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18:15:58 <AnMaster> right I gave ehird a chance off the ignore and he just insulted again
18:36:16 <ehird> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TMwO9PX4_7c
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18:46:00 <jayCampbell> despite calling it smanity most of the way through development
18:47:41 <GregorR> I just multiplied the number of binaries by ~a gagillion
18:49:34 <GregorR> That is the multiple of binaries :P
18:50:36 <oerjan> from this we deduce gag = log 53 / log 1000 - 1
18:51:03 <ehird> a gag is therefore ~= 0.86
18:51:15 <ehird> unless i messed that up
18:52:32 <oerjan> probably a parsing error :D
18:53:09 <oerjan> GregorR: cats never work
18:53:20 <ehird> oerjan: WE ARE SO CLEVER WE CAME UP WITH THE SAME JOKE
18:53:30 <GregorR> Well that's just not right.
18:53:39 <GregorR> (Note: "Ouch!" is from the factor program, not me :P )
18:53:42 <oerjan> indeed 0 is not a factor of 24
18:53:48 <oerjan> although the reverse is true
18:53:50 <ehird> maybe jsmips lives in an alternate universe
18:53:53 <ehird> where 0 is a factor of 24
18:53:56 <ehird> and so is the number Ouch!
18:54:41 <GregorR> I have no idea why that's happening.
18:55:04 <ehird> 50-something binaries
18:55:08 <ehird> but... huge for javascript
18:55:27 <oerjan> maybe it's scrooge's money bin
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19:51:23 <ais523> get your script to handle netsplits
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20:13:33 <AnMaster> ais523, who were you talking to?
20:18:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: how many people here do you have on ignore? :-P
20:18:38 <Deewiant> So how many people could it be?
20:19:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so yes it could be one of them
20:19:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, I'm only doing it because he keeps insulting me
20:19:53 <AnMaster> and I only started the permanent ignore today
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20:21:05 <AnMaster> iirc he went way way off topic in a bad way a bit ago, I may unignore next week
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20:24:56 <oklopol> not really. that's pretty common
20:25:16 <AnMaster> ah well I didn't mean it in that sense
20:25:24 <AnMaster> but rather the other meaning it has today
20:25:46 <AnMaster> Definitions of bastard on the Web:
20:25:46 <AnMaster> * asshole: insulting terms of address for people who are stupid or irritating or ridiculous
20:25:46 <AnMaster> * the illegitimate offspring of unmarried parents
20:27:31 <oklopol> ohhh i've never heard that before
20:28:01 <AnMaster> oklopol, and I was using it in the first sense
20:28:32 <AnMaster> technically we all got exactly one asshole too :P
20:29:11 <oerjan> somewhere, there's some freak with two, i just know it
20:29:16 <oklopol> we're all just one big asshole if you ask me.
20:29:35 <oerjan> probably worshipped as a god in india, they do such things
20:29:45 <oklopol> AnMaster: it's not that strange, it's pretty common not to know that meaning.
20:29:55 <oklopol> oerjan: well that's just ignorant
20:30:16 <ehird> 12:21:05 <AnMaster> iirc he went way way off topic in a bad way a bit ago, I may unignore next week
20:30:25 <ehird> ^ translation: he made a joke about pedophillia
20:30:38 <ehird> next, oklopol said he had a 13 year old (iirc) girlfriend at one point, not-jokingly
20:30:40 <ehird> no ignore was brought
20:30:51 <ehird> being a pedophile is ok, just don't joke about it :D
20:30:54 <oklopol> ehird: well you said it, i didn't mention sex :)
20:31:06 <oklopol> also he didn't believe me.
20:31:20 <ehird> oklopol: well, how could he? pedophiles are physically impossible to exist
20:31:30 <ehird> the only thing you can do with them is joke about them and how they don't exist
20:31:32 <ehird> and that's just despicable
20:32:06 <oklopol> ehird: i guess i sound too sane to be one? not that i would say i'm a pedophile, but anyway.
20:32:23 <ehird> i'm just calling you a pedophile to enhance his perfect point
20:32:40 <oklopol> yes, true, that was my point too, when i said it.
20:33:01 <ehird> oklopol: shut up, pedophile.
20:33:09 <ehird> joking about it isn't
20:33:12 <ehird> got mixed up there
20:35:22 <oklopol> (anyway in my defense, she totally looked 15.)
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20:49:55 <GregorR> (Which is to say, fixed sbrk :P )
20:51:28 <GregorR> ls is ... distressingly slow ...
20:51:48 <ehird> GregorR: i don't think you'll ever surpass molasses
20:52:15 <GregorR> Yeah, but neither will your FACE.
20:57:02 <GregorR> It stats all the effing files :P
20:57:08 <GregorR> stat = load, load = AJAX, AJAX = time.
20:57:39 <GregorR> I guess I should delay loading until there's a read.
20:58:06 <pgimeno> GregorR: watch out for security holes in sbrk, someone could gain root access...
20:58:19 <GregorR> Root access to a simulated machine :P
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21:01:01 <ehird> get all the info once
21:01:05 <ehird> then cache it until it's modified
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21:01:35 <GregorR> Presumably "all the info" != the actual file data :P
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21:03:38 <ehird> GregorR: cache the file data too, you _know_ when it's modified, you can cache everything until the file changes
21:04:17 <GregorR> The file data is the problem ...
21:04:24 <GregorR> There's 12MB of files, it takes a while to download.
21:04:27 <GregorR> I don't want to download them.
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21:07:25 <ehird> GregorR: have two modes
21:07:39 <ehird> don't cache file mode
21:07:41 <ehird> but cache stat mode
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21:17:48 <fizzie> I don't see how download time is related to caching: I mean, it's not like you'd have to *prefetch* things if you cache them. You can just cache stuff you need to download. (Of course it will eat up some memory.)
21:18:04 <GregorR> It's not, I have no idea why ehird is saying what he is :P
21:18:20 <ehird> hitting the server all the time just to stat
21:18:25 <ehird> and keep that stat
21:18:27 <ehird> until the file changes
21:18:42 <fizzie> GregorR: I have no idea why you're saying "I don't want to download them" as an argument against caching file data.
21:18:43 <ehird> the first ls will be slow
21:18:45 <ehird> but the next ones will be fast
21:18:48 <GregorR> I'm hitting the server N times for N files, that's the problem.
21:18:55 <ehird> GregorR: so make a batch mode
21:18:58 <GregorR> First ls is slow, the rest are fast.
21:19:07 <ehird> it doesn't download the WHOLE file does it?
21:19:07 <GregorR> The only problem is that the first ls is REALLY FUCKING SLOW :P
21:19:17 <GregorR> Yes, it downloads the whole file, that's the problem :P
21:19:22 <ehird> GregorR: So add a &stat=1
21:19:27 <ehird> that just returns the stat info
21:19:49 <GregorR> I was just stating the problem, not that it's difficult to solve.
21:19:57 <ehird> the time it's taken yout o tell us
21:20:14 <GregorR> I can't, I'm gonna go gorge myself with turkey and ham now.
21:20:15 <ehird> http://profy.us/2008/11/27/openid-gets-political-support-from-barack-obama/
21:20:46 <GregorR> I thought you were American...?
21:21:38 <ehird> what's me being american got to do with it
21:21:48 <GregorR> In America, today is gorge-yourself-with-turkey day.
21:22:01 <ehird> http://profy.us/2008/11/27/openid-gets-political-support-from-barack-obama/ lol wat
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23:21:15 <AnMaster> GregorR, stat() wouldn't need full download
23:21:24 <AnMaster> it would just need server to extract some info
23:43:06 <ehird> psygnisfive: i wanna try that upside down thing.
23:43:13 <ehird> where you use inversing glasses thingy
23:45:03 <ehird> psygnisfive: Y Y Y Y Y
23:45:04 <psygnisfive> itll be hard to get around the first few days while you adjust
23:45:16 <ehird> psygnisfive: i don't move all that much most of the time
23:45:16 <psygnisfive> it could be dangerous walking around a city or something without an escort
23:45:24 <ehird> then i won't walk around a city
23:45:42 <psygnisfive> ok, well can i have your body when you get killed?
23:46:05 <ehird> I should do it sideways so that I get a tall-screen.
23:46:08 <ehird> instead of a wide-screen
23:48:49 <oklopol> ehird: yeah you should try it. i would've tried it years ago if i had the glasses
23:48:59 <ehird> oklopol: actually you should try it
23:49:01 <oklopol> i don't really feel like making something that complicated myself
23:49:03 <ehird> you'd have no problems
23:49:14 <oklopol> indeed i'd probably learn it in a day.
23:49:29 <ehird> of course you woul
23:49:37 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:49:52 <oklopol> have a goooood night nightity nighties
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02:00:13 <warrie> I didn't eat turkey today.
02:23:56 <GregorR> Of all the times for the MPFR web page to be down >_>
02:37:46 <GregorR> Oh, it's the maximum value of the maximaly-sized int.
02:45:34 <GregorR> Hahaha, I just thought of a great way to effectively break the GPL.
02:45:58 <GregorR> Distribute your source in GPL ... along with hundreds of megs of irrelevant (but compiling) source, which is all incompatible and functions slightly different purposes.
02:46:12 <GregorR> Nobody will be able to disect the part that actually corresponds to the binaries you distribute :P
02:52:18 <Azstal> hmm "The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it."
02:52:39 <Azstal> you just have to convince them that that's your preferred method ;)
02:54:09 <GregorR> Well this is a weird thing to see in any C file:
02:54:11 <GregorR> #define unsigned bogus_type
02:56:18 <Azstal> it's from GCC? I suppose that makes a little more sense.
02:56:48 <GregorR> Yeah, it's in libgcc2.c :P
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03:14:08 <GregorR> vi gives shockingly useful error messages.
03:14:22 <GregorR> I didn't realize a directory could be unsupported.
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03:39:15 <GregorR> I have vi about 1/3 working :P
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03:51:04 <pgimeno> it'd be great to have a bignum calculator handy
03:52:06 <GregorR> Oh, it just doesn't work? :P
03:52:10 <pgimeno> part of...? the unix utilities?
03:52:26 <GregorR> In this case, heirloom toolkits.
03:55:28 <GregorR> It loads termcap ... and does nothing with it ...
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04:03:01 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: dc works :P
04:03:14 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: bc is just an absurdly-complicated wrapper for dc anyway.
04:04:24 <GregorR> It opens /etc/termcap ... and doesn't read a single effing byte!!!
04:34:18 <Slereah> Orc seems interesting, but the interpreter is so shitty
04:41:04 <Slereah> The one that was recently deleted fromthe wiki
04:41:21 <Slereah> There's three interpreters.
04:41:34 <Slereah> One that requires that I open Eclipse to run it
04:41:39 <Slereah> And one that only works on Linux
04:44:35 <GregorR> That's pretty sucktacular.
04:45:02 <Slereah> It's hard to find a concurent language.
04:45:23 <Slereah> I'm trying Spico here, even though it's supposed to be used for biological simulations.
04:49:10 <Slereah> Well, it requires Mozart Oz.
04:49:20 <Slereah> And I can't find a Windows version.
04:49:27 <Slereah> I hate OS-dependant programs
04:49:50 <Slereah> Yes, my face also hates it.
04:49:59 <GregorR> And that's why I'm making JSMIPS! Every program is suddenly non-platform-dependent ... or some such bullshit :P
04:50:31 <Slereah> But will I want programs that runs on JSMIPS?
04:51:54 <Slereah> The Stochastic Pi Machine (SPiM) is a simulator for the stochastic pi-calculus that can be used to execute models of biological systems. The machine has been formally specified, and the specification has been proved correct with respect to the calculus
04:52:15 <Slereah> Although I doubt that it will help me a lot with such a specific purpose
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04:53:50 <Slereah_> Yeah, it's pretty much only pi calculus
04:54:01 <Slereah_> Although it would be nice to try it a bit
04:56:17 <Slereah_> Maybe I should reinstall Linux.
04:59:50 <Slereah_> The Transterpreter is a small, portable, open-source runtime for exploring concurrency.
04:59:51 <Slereah_> Desktop Explore programming in a concurrent language on the Mac, Windows, or Linux.
04:59:51 <Slereah_> On your robot Concurrency and little robots! We currently support the LEGO Mindstorms RCX, and the Surveyor Corporation SRV-1.
04:59:52 <Slereah_> Everywhere else The Transterpreter was developed to be portable and run from as little as 10KB of flash with mere bytes of RAM. Interested developers may grab the source and enquire within.
04:59:58 <GregorR> Ooooh, vi is deliciously close to working 8-D
05:00:05 <Slereah_> I want an interpreter on my robot D:
05:02:41 <Slereah_> Ah, finally, an interpreter for occam-pi!
05:04:38 * bsmntbombdood pets your tail as she gently licks your fuzzy anus
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05:13:01 <Slereah_> Well, let's see how this occam pi works.
05:13:12 <Slereah_> Unless you want to lick my fuzzy anus. I'm down with that.
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05:29:03 <GregorR> vi is so close to working >_>
05:32:58 <Slereah_> Occams seems to be what I need.
05:33:17 <GregorR> GreaseMonkey: I'm not sure ... I think it's just the input is limited.
05:33:28 <Slereah_> Doing once again lambdas without lambdas is a boring prospect
05:33:59 <GreaseMonkey> GregorR: are you having issues getting the arrow keys to work?
05:34:17 <GregorR> GreaseMonkey: I'm not attempting to get the arrow keys to work, this is classic vi :P
05:34:45 <Slereah_> In Occam expressions, there is no operator precedence! Therefore, you must use
05:34:45 <Slereah_> parentheses to specify the order of operation.
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07:45:28 <pgimeno> except in INTERCAL, the grouping is done with symbols other than parentheses
07:45:37 <pgimeno> the lack of operator precedence
07:47:00 <Slereah_> It's hard to find shit on Occam, because most results are about Occam's razor.
07:47:58 <pgimeno> i.e. http://www.google.com/search?q=Occam+-razor
07:48:43 <pgimeno> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/intercal-man/s03.html#4.3
07:49:07 <pgimeno> you have to use sparks or rabbit-ears
07:49:13 <Slereah_> I'm not sure Occam has some functional part.
07:50:06 <GregorR> pgimeno: There are some other wonky issues I have to fix before I can figure out what's wrong with it.
07:51:34 <pgimeno> hope some of the fixes to vi help bc as well :P
07:54:00 <GregorR> Thinks like du and cp are failing in truly bizarre ways.
07:54:21 <GregorR> I suspect it's some kind of problem with the I/O subsystem, which is probably affecting keyboard I/O just as much as file I/O
07:56:53 <Slereah_> Does anyone know a concurent language with lambdas in it?
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08:01:11 <Slereah_> "In parallel computing, an embarrassingly parallel workload (or embarrassingly parallel problem) is one for which little or no effort is required to separate the problem into a number of parallel tasks."
08:04:57 <GregorR> This one I don't know if I can fix ...
08:05:11 <GregorR> It seems that something deep in the ABI isn't passing long long's correctly to functions.
08:06:49 <GregorR> I have nothing whatsoever to do with those parts of the ABI.
08:10:18 <GregorR> No, never mind ... seems that's a problem with printf specifically.
08:10:25 <GregorR> Then that's probably just newlib.
08:11:50 <Slereah_> "While this is theoretically possible, it's obvious that Mr. Stephenson's never actually programmed them himself. If he had, he would quickly have realized that no one programs Turing machines in the real world."
08:12:37 <GregorR> It's not real-world until there's a Visual Turing Machine Enterprise Edition 2010
08:27:40 <Slereah_> But what of the LOVE MACHINE 9000?
08:27:47 <Slereah_> It's like way higher than 2010
08:29:19 <fizzie> I just reread The Diamond Age a couple of days ago, and actually it was rather real-worldish in the way that after encountering Turing machines, there are successively more "high-level" systems (including that one where stuff was programmed with a language that was "extremely pithy and made heavy use of parentheses") that are just said to be computationally equivalent to Turing machines.
08:29:48 <fizzie> Admittedly there's that one bit of programming Turing machines, but it makes for a good story.
08:32:41 <Slereah_> Then yeah, a Turing machine is probably a bad idea
08:35:06 <fizzie> It's "Turing machines in a storybook", not "Turing machines actually used in the future".
08:36:40 <fizzie> A large part of the book is about an "interactive" educational story book thing.
08:36:52 <fizzie> Turing machines are just used in that book to teach about computing.
08:37:51 <Slereah_> Well, I guess that makes sense. Of sort.
08:38:08 <Slereah_> Even though they're more useful in a math setting than a computer setting
08:38:19 <Slereah_> Since they're pretty terrible to implement on anything, really
08:38:38 <fizzie> They are mechanical Turing machines, anyway.
08:39:01 <fizzie> Long pieces of chain (with two-position toggle switches in each link) work as the tape.
08:39:01 <Slereah_> How can they be mechanical, if they're in a book
08:39:43 <fizzie> In the story told by the book.
08:42:34 <fizzie> Curious, that book is in scribd.com, claiming creative commons attribution non-commercial license. That's surprising, and not even sure if it's actually true.
08:47:59 <Slereah_> "In my previous post I talked a bit about Alex Smith's proof that the Wolfram Prize 2 state, 3 symbol Turing machine was universal"
08:51:18 <GregorR> Hahahah, I love retardedly-retarded problems.
08:51:30 <GregorR> CAN YOU SPOT THE ERROR HERE:
08:51:38 <GregorR> if (flags | O_APPEND) { /* stuff for append mode */ }
08:53:06 <GregorR> To check if a flag is set, you use &. To set a flag, you use |
08:53:30 <fizzie> With |, that will be always true as long as O_APPEND is nonzero.
08:55:43 <fizzie> That's still not as common as "if (mode = MODE_BLAH) { ... }"... although I guess that one tends to give some warnings.
08:56:52 <GregorR> Slereah_: No, but screwing up two languages at once is far more stupid than screwing up one :P
08:58:19 <GregorR> One quick way to access the source for dir.php ... cat it X-P
09:02:24 <pgimeno> GregorR: you probably confused it with the | that goes when ORing flags together as in: if (flags & (O_APPEND | O_WRONLY)) ...
09:02:58 <GregorR> That's precisely what I did.
09:03:10 <GregorR> Doesn't make it any less stupid :P
09:05:56 <AnMaster> <Slereah_> Does anyone know a concurent language with lambdas in it? <-- hm, erlang is concurrent, and for "funs" which is just lambdas with a different name really
09:08:12 <AnMaster> Slereah_, anyway I hope you find that useful
09:08:39 <AnMaster> Slereah_, erlang is not an esolang btw
09:08:51 <Slereah_> I saw it on my concurent cruise
09:09:08 <pgimeno> speaking of fun, what happened to humour in recently created languages?
09:09:24 <Slereah_> We saw Esme, and we said "Never again"
09:09:25 <AnMaster> Slereah_, however iirc "normal" functions are slightly faster in erlang.
09:09:34 <AnMaster> since it can optimize those better
09:09:39 <Slereah_> Well, I'm not looking for speed.
09:09:49 <Slereah_> I want to try doing the goddamn Limp.
09:10:03 <AnMaster> Slereah_, there is a lisp for erlang iirc
09:10:49 <AnMaster> http://github.com/rvirding/lfe/tree/master
09:11:25 <AnMaster> Slereah_, anyway lfe is at very early development stage
09:11:43 <AnMaster> and you need to know normal erlang to be able to use it really
09:11:58 <Slereah_> Well, considering that I want to combine the most basic functional languages.
09:12:05 <Slereah_> I'm not worried about it being finished.
09:12:19 <Slereah_> If it has lambdas, arithmetics and concurrent programming, I'll see what I can do.
09:12:23 <AnMaster> Slereah_, also are you on *nix?
09:12:36 <AnMaster> since the build system seems to be a single Makefile currently
09:12:39 <Slereah_> That might be a bigger problem
09:12:44 <AnMaster> erlang itself works on windows
09:12:56 <AnMaster> lfe doesn't have a non-*nix build system currently
09:13:03 <AnMaster> Slereah_, as I said, erlang itself exists for windows
09:13:24 <AnMaster> and I assume you can build lfe by hand on windows
09:14:00 <AnMaster> yes the makefile seem very basic
09:15:03 <AnMaster> Slereah_, oh and I can recommend the book "Programming Erlang - Software for a concurrent world" by Joe Armstrong (one of the designers of Erlang)
09:15:27 <Slereah_> ... but your query looks similar to automated requests from a computer virus or spyware application. To protect our users, we can't process your request right now.
09:15:49 <AnMaster> http://www.erlang.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlang_(programming_language)
09:16:07 <AnMaster> http://www.pragprog.com/titles/jaerlang
09:16:58 <Slereah_> Joe Armstrong is a pretty awesome name.
09:17:06 <Slereah_> They should make an action figure with that name
09:17:11 <AnMaster> Slereah_, for the last one I wouldn't be surprised if the ebook can be found in some torrent or such
09:17:48 <Slereah_> Hence it would be awesome to get the torrent of it
09:18:01 <AnMaster> Slereah_, I think it is worth paying for
09:18:25 <Slereah_> I'm not sure paying for something I'm not sure to follow through is worth it.
09:18:36 <Slereah_> Hell, I bought enough video games and had the same problem!
09:19:06 <AnMaster> well are you going to buy it if you end up liking the language?
09:19:22 <AnMaster> Slereah_, also iirc the first chapter is available for free online
09:19:44 <Slereah_> Technically, I should need it only for one application.
09:19:50 <AnMaster> Slereah_, look a bit further down at http://www.pragprog.com/titles/jaerlang/programming-erlang
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09:22:54 <Slereah_> ... ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ???????, ????????????? ??????????? ???????????? ??????? ??? ??????????? ??????????? ????????????. ? ????? ?????? ????? ????????????? ?? ?? ????? ?????????? ??? ?????? ??????????.
09:23:12 <Slereah_> Maybe I should turn off the proxy.
09:23:42 <Slereah_> Ah, it was the proxy apparently
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11:06:23 <AnMaster> idea: come up with valid/reasonable/funny meanings for this expression:
11:07:11 * AnMaster has been pondering a dynamically typed language where every operation is valid
11:07:23 <AnMaster> such as dividing any type by any other type and so on
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11:08:32 <oklopol> not sure what 3 will do with [/ "Hello, World], but it'll probably try to convert the string to its own type, by default.
11:08:47 <AnMaster> anyway "string" / 3 would be a list like "st" "ri" "ng"
11:09:00 <oklopol> i think that's what i've specced
11:09:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, nice, how would you convert ""Hello, World" to an integer?
11:09:31 <oklopol> and "string" % 3 would be "si" "tn" "rg" i think
11:10:32 <AnMaster> ""Hello, World" turns into the whatever you get interpreting the byte sequence as a arbitrary precision integer
11:11:02 <oklopol> i think "Hello, World" would become its length when told to be converted to an integer
11:11:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, what other types does oklotalk have?
11:11:33 <oklopol> oklotalk is very high-level, you shouldn't even have to know whether it's a list or a hashmap, byte sequences don't make much sense.
11:11:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, so it have structs and such?
11:11:48 <oklopol> it basically has just objects.
11:12:01 <oklopol> an object can be given messages, and it can return things
11:12:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm what would "string" / 10 do?
11:12:54 <oklopol> it just splits it in pieces of size N, and has the modulo as the last one
11:13:25 * AnMaster waits for oklopol to work out that one
11:13:28 <oklopol> i don't know. not necessarily anything sensible.
11:13:45 <oklopol> but i'd probably just split from the end.
11:14:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, and divided by a floating point number...
11:14:12 <oklopol> one of oklotalk's design goals is to make the standard objects as clever as possible.
11:14:23 <oklopol> that is, make them able to handle pretty much anything.
11:14:46 <oklopol> and not in a demand-driven fashion, just that there's a meaning for most things you can try.
11:15:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, "string" / "string" == 1 then I guess.
11:15:29 <oklopol> AnMaster: i think that's "split", so no.
11:15:29 <AnMaster> while "string" / "somethingelse" ? no idea
11:15:59 <oklopol> AnMaster: as for flaots you'd probably just have the first [N] pieces in the first substring, then [N+1]..[2N] in the next, and so on.
11:16:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, where is the spec and/or implementation?
11:16:11 <oklopol> so if it's 1.5, you'd have 2 chars in the first, then 1, then 2, then 1...
11:16:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: i've only implemented oklotalk--, which is very simplified and quite boring.
11:17:11 <oklopol> well not sure about boring, it's pretty high-level, and useful if you don't mind it doesn't have that much stuff in the stdlib.
11:17:26 <oklopol> AnMaster: you can search @ vjn.fi's articles, i don't have it anywhere in one piece.
11:17:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, ah and the oklotalk-- interpreter?
11:17:55 <oklopol> and thanks for reminding me about my languages, i think i have enough knowledge now to get my noprob interp done today
11:18:15 <AnMaster> oklopol, is the -- one at vjn too?
11:18:27 <oklopol> AnMaster: it's a python interp, but i'm not sure where it is, and it may be on a broken hard drive :|
11:18:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, and I got python installed
11:19:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, great! upload the source :)
11:19:39 <oklopol> i guess i could. don't expect to be able to read it though.
11:19:52 <AnMaster> oklopol, indeed I only know basic python
11:21:52 <oklopol> www.vjn.fi/oklopol/oklotalk.rar do you open that?
11:22:07 <AnMaster> just need to read unrar man page
11:22:37 <oklopol> so i have no idea how that thing works, if you seriously want to try it, i can check to source for what you need to be calling.
11:23:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, and specs for this -- variant? *hopeful smile*
11:24:00 <oklopol> i guess i could up the specs too.
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11:25:45 <oklopol> didn't work it seems, wait a sec
11:26:17 <oklopol> k, now. except it's .rtf, is that proprietary or do you open it?
11:26:28 <AnMaster> I suspect open office can open it
11:26:39 <AnMaster> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/oklotalk.rtf ?
11:26:55 <oklopol> i just blobbed it in there
11:28:14 <oklopol> now i really need to go to sleep. if you're really interested in trying to make something in that, bug me aboug bugs, i will probably happily fix them for you.
11:29:16 <oklopol> although i doubt there'll be any, because i don't make mistakes. but seriously, that code is very badly structured, because i tend to refactor without removing old code, and just fixing it by adding random lines in the middle, you know, the way all the cool kids do it.
11:29:54 <oklopol> and i refactored a lot, was my first time implementing static scoping, so both static and dynamic required a bit of mental exorcism.
11:30:49 <oklopol> oklotalk--'s scoping is probably the most differentiating thing from other languages.
11:31:54 <AnMaster> "Static scoping overrides dynamic scoping, meaning that a thing first checks its own closure, and only then looks for variables in the contents of closures of things above it in the call stack.
11:32:12 <AnMaster> isn't that what common lisp does?
11:32:19 <oklopol> see "setcar" in ehird's list implementation
11:32:27 <oklopol> is it now? i thought no language has that, but yeah maybe.
11:32:50 <AnMaster> oklopol, where is the setcat implementation?
11:33:08 <oklopol> the scoping is very weird because you use "things", those {}-thingies as both objects and functions
11:33:18 <oklopol> AnMaster: www.vjn.fi/oklopol/oklotalk.txt
11:33:26 <oklopol> also it's there in that rtf i think
11:33:58 <AnMaster> "A pages you tried to acess does no exist on this servers."
11:34:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: also "page", "access" and "server" :D
11:34:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh intentional then I guess
11:34:49 <AnMaster> no one would typo that much by mistake
11:34:50 <oklopol> that's deliberate, the guy who wrote that is excellent at english
11:35:55 <AnMaster> someone should create an esolang called "ya"
11:36:03 <AnMaster> so you could make jokes about "see ya"
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13:38:30 <ehird> 01:11:06 <AnMaster> Slereah_, I'm not homosexual
13:38:36 <ehird> even if you were you couldn't procreate with Slereah.
13:56:45 <Slereah> I need full access to your butt.
13:59:01 <ehird> it was about AnMaster.
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17:43:49 <warrie> Hmm, an esolang called "ya".
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19:59:59 <oklopol> which character would be best for a prefix for variables that are kinda returned?
20:00:33 <ehird> borrowed from smalltalk
20:00:38 <ehird> which uses ^ for return
20:00:55 <ehird> it represents going one level up in the stack
20:01:11 <oklopol> except there's no stack here, but anyway
20:05:52 <oklopol> basically i want something that lets me use a probability as a number, the problem is i can't really find a reversible operation.
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20:08:28 <oklopol> maybe i should just implement what i have and think about how it actually works later... :D
20:10:59 <oklopol> btw. the semantics of "cut" are very weird, basically, you can do A = B & C to make A's probability 0.25, roughly because 0.5*0.5 is 0.25, and B and C are originally true with probability 0.5
20:11:42 <oklopol> now, a semicolon at the end of line is a cut, it simply forgets all relations between variables, and only leaves the probabilities
20:12:01 <oklopol> which you can use as conditions for entering problotures
20:12:31 <oerjan> if you are sufficiently insane
20:13:07 <oklopol> actually i'd also like something that *doesn't* cut, so you *can* have these long-term relations between variables
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20:13:47 <oklopol> if i'm not insane now, i will be pretty soon if i keep trying to get noprob to make sense.
20:14:20 <oklopol> olsner: yes! it's a mix of procedure + block + oklopolitan word-scrambling
20:14:55 <oklopol> basically i have a while loop, except the semantics are it's a prolog-style tail-recursive procedure :)
20:15:03 <olsner> this sounds interesting
20:15:28 <oklopol> the idea was to make a tarpit over it
20:15:41 <oklopol> the problem is storage, so i had the idea to make the variables kinda have probabilities.
20:15:56 <oklopol> this was where i went horribly wrong (not that i'm going back!)
20:16:47 <oklopol> basically, a variable's probability is, as far as problotures / IO are concerned, the portion of satisfying models for the 3sat expression where that variable is true.
20:17:40 <oklopol> but it's kinda hard to manipulate that as a value, because, well, it just is.
20:18:36 <oklopol> a probloture is of the form (expression)[variables]{body}, which is while(expression){body}, variables have to do with the kinda parameters for the "recursion"
20:19:27 <oklopol> when the body ends, it's as if there were an infinite amount of those in a row, each depending on the last one by the probloture's body setting the special variables of form ^var
20:19:51 <oklopol> meh, it's impossible to explain.
20:20:01 <olsner> something like a fixpoint then?
20:21:03 <oklopol> hmm actually. i think i originally didn't have the expression there... (got overwhelmed, scrapped everything and started over like 15 minutes ago :D)
20:21:11 <oklopol> in that case it would be a fixpoint
20:21:41 <oklopol> basically, you'd make, say, A depend on ^A through some formula
20:22:02 <oklopol> and because ^A would have to be known, the next cycle of the probloture would be run
20:22:18 <oklopol> yeah that's much better, i'll reinstate that.
20:23:41 <oklopol> then again now i'll need some other kinda conditional if i want numberssss...
20:25:49 * oklopol ponders using 8< for "cut"
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20:27:36 <oklopol> maybe i should try writing like a fibonacci, maybe things would get clearer.
20:29:13 <oerjan> Azstal: you seem to have developed a slight nick disorder
20:29:40 <Azstal> it normally changes back by magic
20:29:43 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal.
20:30:12 <oklopol> oerjan: how did you notice that? :P
20:31:15 <oklopol> hihihiiii :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDd
20:31:29 <Asztal> it's quite impressive actually... someone once asked how there are two of me with the exact same name
20:32:08 <oklopol> for a second there i was about to ask why freenode showed a nickchange that didn't change the nick...
20:33:26 <oerjan> nothing escapes my x-ray vision (WARNING: Do not use while pregnant. Avoid frequent exposure. Consult your doctor if you have a family history of cancer.)
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21:09:50 <GregorR> vi is so close to working I can (still) taste it.
21:09:56 <GregorR> But there's still something wonky X_X
21:10:03 <GregorR> I think it thinks that my screen has 1 row :P
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21:14:05 <ehird> GregorR: link link link
21:21:06 <nooga_> i just found a naked photo of a girl exactly simmilar to my ex gf on 4chan O_o
21:22:30 <nooga_> http://cgi.4chan.org/r/src/1227904327552.jpg
21:22:32 <ehird> Today, we observe the main topic of #esoteric.
21:23:00 <nooga_> even the piercing is in the same place
21:23:14 * oerjan didn't expect nooga_ to give the link. must have been a nasty breakup.
21:23:18 <nooga_> but i do not remember that tatoo
21:23:45 <nooga_> ah, she was cute but extremely fucking crazy bitch
21:23:46 <GregorR> nooga_: It's a tattoo of the name of her new boyfriend.
21:24:00 <nooga_> GregorR: i wish him luck
21:26:31 <nooga_> i guess i'll need to buy some alcohol then
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22:11:33 <LinuS> full of great scientist there
22:11:43 <LinuS> i'm connecting to a server on a not well known port
22:11:45 <LinuS> it says WDN@KHC'E^lbn-X>>!"3YXAdjo:'%$)'
22:14:01 <psygnisfive> speaking of APL, does anyone here know it?
22:14:12 <psygnisfive> its got to be the most esoteric "mainstream" language ever
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22:20:31 <psygnisfive> i want to try and build on. specifically, one that uses jeff hawkins' concepts.
22:24:23 <GregorR> Well that's a new error :P
22:24:25 <GregorR> cat: cannot open dirs.php: File exists
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22:56:45 <nooga> i am truly crushed :D
22:57:47 <nooga> 'cause the whole case is so riddiculous that it makes me laugh
22:58:45 <nooga> everywhere but not 4chan!
23:00:04 <nooga> and those swarms of fapping faggots
23:00:27 <GregorR> nooga: im gonna go fap to ur ex kthx
23:18:30 <GregorR> It's still fucked up in some obscure way though :P
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23:35:04 <psygnisfive> anyone interested in a little reverse engineering challenge? :)
23:37:10 <psygnisfive> function 1: buildStructure takes two arguments, P a set of parameters, and W a set of input items, and constructs a structure S that includes all (tho not necessarily only) the items in W
23:38:09 <psygnisfive> function 2: linearize takes one argument, a structure produced by buildStructure, and linearizes the items in that structure somehow
23:39:25 <psygnisfive> the nature of buildStructure is such that, for a set W = {A, B, C, X}
23:39:57 <psygnisfive> the only possibly linearizations, for all possible parameters, are ones that satisfy the following:
23:40:23 <psygnisfive> (or rather, they show the following patterns)
23:40:38 <ehird> psygnisfive: my solution: butts
23:40:59 <psygnisfive> any items linearized /before/ the X item will be lineared with the following ordering: A then B then C
23:41:22 <psygnisfive> any items linearized /after/ the X item will be linearized without constraint.
23:41:51 <psygnisfive> the exact linearization depends on the structure produced by buildStructure, and the nature of that structure depends on the parameters
23:42:22 <psygnisfive> what kind of structures does buildStructure produce, what kind of parameters does it take, and how does linearize work?
23:42:59 * oerjan declares that there are an infinite number of solutions. DUH.
23:44:05 <psygnisfive> im interested in what solutions you come up with
23:44:55 <oerjan> but he won't, because thin, yet extremely verbose disguises over problems he has already declared interesting yesterday are still not interesting
23:46:19 <oerjan> well it's clearly your noun phrase problem.
23:46:34 <psygnisfive> i just didnt realize i told you guys about it :)
23:47:53 <ehird> oerjan: what was it yesterday?
23:48:59 <oerjan> oklopol: then don't do that
23:50:43 <oerjan> ehird: relative placement of demonstratives(?) (A), numbers (B), and adjectives (C) relative to nouns (X) in the world's languages
23:50:56 <ehird> it's just a transposition of that?
23:51:00 <ehird> nice try psygnisfive
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23:51:10 <psygnisfive> ehird: well, i wasnt sure i'd mentioned it here!
23:51:54 <oklopol> i didn't really read that yesterday or today. still it was hardly possibly not to know psygnisfive was talking about the same thing
23:51:59 <nooga> is specially trained neural network able to recognize naked pics of my gf?
23:52:19 <oklopol> i mean. after he'd asked if we want to reverse-engineer something
23:52:24 <oklopol> i was like "oh god not this again!"
23:52:44 <oklopol> (i'm just going by oerjan's "not interesting")
23:53:08 <psygnisfive> well give it a try, oklopol. see if you can figure something out
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23:53:38 <oerjan> nooga: it may have trouble distinguishing it from YOUR MOM
23:54:06 <warrie> Does the mention of NOOGA'S MOM mean I'm allowed to say that I just lost The Game?
23:54:08 <oerjan> (sorry, on a run here)
23:54:59 <oklopol> nooga: i doubt it (professional opinion)
23:55:11 <nooga> how about any naked person?
23:56:04 <oerjan> don't they do something like that in some net nanny programs? i have this very vague recall
23:56:41 <oklopol> nooga: they might recognize your mother, but that's as far as they go. (professional object)
23:56:53 <nooga> i would like to create something reverse to that
23:57:10 <oklopol> you want naked pictures of your mother.
23:57:27 <oerjan> oklopol: his mother is a professional object?
23:58:09 <oklopol> oerjan: well that was actually a weird typo, but if you find something sensible there, go for it
23:58:22 <nooga> my irssi throws away lines containing phrase "your mother"
23:58:32 <oklopol> not really a typo, one of those brain diarrhea thingies
23:59:10 <oerjan> nooga: are we that bad? i think i'll have to join Mom Jokers Anonymous soon...
23:59:22 <nooga> oklopol: and so's your mom
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00:18:13 <GregorR> Now everything in vi works EXCEPT quit (pfft, who needs that anyway) and when you go to command mode (:foo) it draws the command right where you are instead of at the bottom of the screen.
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00:19:18 <nooga> GregorR: is it some special vi then?
00:19:31 <GregorR> nooga: It's traditional vi
00:19:52 <GregorR> I'll attack vim next, since any issues are at least as likely to be vi as JSMIPS :P
00:20:08 <nooga> so what are you doing with that vi?
00:20:28 <GregorR> You don't know that I'm referring to making vi work on my JSMIPS simulator?
00:21:37 <jayCampbell> vi in the browser will revolutionize web development until adobe bundles vimWorks in Flash 12
00:22:55 <nooga> isn't it a bit slow?
00:23:32 <oerjan> nooga: moore's law will surely take care of that
00:23:39 <jayCampbell> it encourages thoughtful development practices
00:24:54 <GregorR> nooga: It's slowish ... but I have a JIT >: )
00:25:51 <oerjan> definition: a program is considered slow if moore's law matters during its running time
00:27:40 <Asztal> is there a HTML5-backed filesystem? :D
00:27:51 <Asztal> err.. HTML5 DOM Storage, that is
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00:36:54 <nooga> and it appears that it is a major shit
00:39:07 <oerjan> 5+7+5, not 5+11, nooga
00:40:02 <ehird> nooga: major shit why?
00:40:42 <jayCampbell> gregor very cool how much you've got running
00:40:54 <oerjan> try: i'm testing Haiku / and it appears that it is / just a piece of shit
00:47:12 <jayCampbell> what esolang deserves an interpreter but is lacking one
00:47:23 <jayCampbell> the 'unimplemented' list on esowiki isn't terribly inspiring
00:59:12 <oerjan> now if you were SURPRISED, i'd be WORRIED
01:00:14 <oerjan> which gives me the obvious idea: GregorR, you need a tinfoil hat. as stylish as possible, of course.
01:00:19 <nooga> still i cannot imagine how you've managed to compile something unixy for MIPS which emulator is written in js
01:01:34 <nooga> i require immediate sleep
01:01:39 <oerjan> ah yes, GregorR needs a wizard hat too
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01:18:21 <MizardX> Hmm... was looking at the implemented/unimplemented categories on the wiki. "1L" is in both categories.
01:21:05 <oerjan> ah yes, it is not one language, but several, not all implemented
01:28:47 <oerjan> yes, you _definitely_ need a tinfoil hat.
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04:06:05 <GregorR> HOLY EFFING HOLY EFFING OMGOMGOMG
04:08:13 <GregorR> My vim started in a MIPS simulator in my browser.
04:08:33 <warrie> That's not millions of instructions per second, is it.
04:09:03 <warrie> A RISC architecture, I see.
04:10:52 <warrie> Suddenly, I think it would be a good idea to come up with a simple self-modifying language and then write a program that keeps a bunch of programs in this language running, occasionally randomly changing them, and replacing them with combinations of others.
04:11:22 <GregorR> Congratulations, you just reinvented evolutionary programming?
04:11:38 <warrie> Just like an evolution simulation, except programs die randomly instead of according to how well they do, and the programs can alter their genotypes at will.
04:15:05 * warrie goes "omgomgomg", much the way people go "nomnomnom"
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04:34:07 <GregorR> http://codu.org/jsmips_vim.png http://codu.org/jsmips_vim_2.png
04:34:24 <GregorR> http://codu.org/jsmips/jsmips_vim.png http://codu.org/jsmips/jsmips_vim_2.png
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04:51:24 <GregorR> The "JS" in JSMIPS is important.
04:56:26 <GregorR> http://codu.org/jsmips/system.html Go here, type "vim", wait ten minutes, laugh maniacally ^^
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05:46:38 <MizardX> GregorR: Only problem; There is no way of getting out of input-mode :P
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06:15:54 <GregorR> Yes, that downloads all the files.
06:15:59 <GregorR> Thanks for wasting my bandwidth.
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06:58:22 * GregorR just improved the JIT ... it's a bit faster now.
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09:18:31 <whtspc> Hi! I've created some sort of esolang, what is the best place to post for discussion ?
09:20:24 <whtspc> Hi okay, but I'm quite new to this IRC thing, does conversation gets saved while I'm away for instance?
09:20:40 <Slereah_> This particular channel has a log.
09:22:01 <Slereah_> So don't talk about that time you murdered that prostitute here.
09:22:34 <whtspc> Well let's start with a link to the development topic I have at another forum first:
09:22:36 <whtspc> http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=3710.0
09:25:26 <whtspc> Yeah how surprising, isn't it? it's better explained as a toy to output data in a different way than the usual ascii.
09:25:44 <whtspc> That's where the difference lies
09:26:37 <Slereah_> Something like... THIS? http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Hello.png
09:27:35 <Slereah_> Infinite 2D grids are a bitch.
09:29:11 <Slereah_> It's also very small apparently :o
09:29:12 <whtspc> Well hi, I'm a pretty newbie to this sort of stuff,
09:29:44 <whtspc> I like to have some guidelines, I'm not looking for hostility
09:30:07 <whtspc> The grid should be resizable in the end
09:30:33 <whtspc> someone is working on interpreter in real language, (other than actionscript)
09:31:10 <Slereah_> You'll find pretty much anything on anything here.
09:31:19 <whtspc> a programming language, not scripting language
09:31:32 <Slereah_> Scripting languages are programming languages.
09:31:36 <whtspc> he's making cross-platform c++ interpreter
09:33:09 <whtspc> k, have to go. Cheers!
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09:43:19 <pgimeno> That PaintFuck looks somewhat interesting. Reminds me of the ant automaton somehow. Guess it could be programmed in PaintFuck.
09:43:48 <Slereah_> Ant automaton? You mean the 2D Turing Machine?
09:44:07 <pgimeno> yes, well, a particular simple one
09:44:33 <pgimeno> IIRC it was like (0>left, 1>right) and toggle on each move
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09:49:11 <whtspc> tigsource member increpare created universal automaton in paintf
09:49:55 <pgimeno> ever thought of writing a JS interpreter to view online?
09:50:18 <whtspc> http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~icecube/2008/11/rule-110-in-paintfuck/
09:51:07 <whtspc> yeah, well I'm not very good programmer, but someone is creating webbased application too
09:51:22 <whtspc> it would be very nice to share programs easily online
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10:01:29 <pgimeno> automata rule 110 in Paintfuck (v3) - is there an v3 paintfuck?
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10:05:49 <pgimeno> AnMaster: from http://ded.johnmarkkearney.com/~locus/automata4.txt
10:06:26 <AnMaster> http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=3710.msg110146#msg109146 <-- seems relevant
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10:13:53 <pgimeno> GregorR: What do you do in the console when your local characters are not echoed? I used "reset" in that case but there's no "reset" in bin/
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12:59:16 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck.php
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13:11:26 <ehird> pgimeno: I saw paintfuck a while back.
13:13:38 <whtspc> works pretty fast, especially compared to my flash
13:14:28 <ehird> lol, I just called it boring in front of the person who made it
13:14:44 <ehird> also, flash's actionscript actually tends to be faster than regular js in my experience
13:14:51 <whtspc> Could you make it so that it runs like an animation
13:15:11 <pgimeno> ehird: it has one notable merit over most of the languages: there are more than just the test programs written by the creator.
13:15:17 <ehird> that would just be repeating the step() i uguess
13:15:31 <ehird> ehh, now I have to write a version, damnit
13:15:42 <pgimeno> whtspc: I don't know, maybe by setting up a timer
13:15:45 <ehird> can't let YOU guys have all the fun
13:16:00 <ehird> i should do it in haskell. so that i am speshul.
13:16:15 <whtspc> the animating part is the best part of it imo
13:16:21 <Slereah> I can totally let you guys have all the fun.
13:16:32 <whtspc> especially bugs are beautiful to watch :)
13:16:41 <Slereah> I could probably try to do it on the 2D Love Machine 9000, but it would be terrible
13:16:49 <Slereah> Because it only has one layer.
13:16:54 <pgimeno> whtspc: updates are made realtime, just not shown by the browser in realtime
13:17:08 <ehird> pgimeno: add a settimeout
13:17:11 <ehird> after you do an instruction
13:17:16 <ehird> setTimeout(step, 0)
13:17:21 <ehird> that lets the browser redraw et
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13:17:32 <ehird> also, who wants to link me to the flash ver )
13:17:43 <pgimeno> ehird: you could say it in a line
13:17:56 <ehird> pgimeno: this is true. i'm typing weirdly today.
13:18:04 <whtspc> http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=3710.0
13:18:04 <pgimeno> and that's what I said: <pgimeno> whtspc: I don't know, maybe by setting up a timer
13:18:24 <ehird> well i'm not one of those weird people who read things
13:18:46 <ehird> whtspc: flash is cross-platform, isn't it?
13:19:12 <whtspc> i can compile it as swf if you like
13:19:33 <ehird> that'd be cool, I could also start up parallels :p
13:19:33 <whtspc> or do you think it's boooooring :)
13:19:43 <ehird> hey it's boooooooooooooring until i realise the creators in here.
13:19:56 <ehird> then i get interested inadvertently
13:20:06 <Slereah_> A brainfuck derivative? By jove!
13:20:31 <Slereah_> There's something you don't see every day!
13:21:24 <ehird> javascript:function a(){step();setTimeout(a,0);};a()
13:21:29 <ehird> i wrote it for you :P
13:21:57 <whtspc> best program written in paintfuck yet is here: http://ded.johnmarkkearney.com/~locus/automata4.txt
13:22:12 <pgimeno> Slereah_: the novelty is the 2D data being shown visually
13:22:14 <ehird> that could be a lot shorter
13:22:49 <ehird> running eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee*s*[n[sw*n]ss*n[se*n]ss*] with my stepper is fun
13:22:56 <ehird> it goes off the edges and stuff
13:23:02 <ehird> i think they'll collide in a second
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13:23:15 <ehird> it's overwriting the old one
13:23:17 <ehird> then putting it back
13:23:19 <whtspc> and i like my own binary counter
13:23:22 <whtspc> *[ss*s[*]n[e*s[*]n]*e[*nn[*n*ss*n]sse]ne[*e]*w*[*w*]*]
13:24:03 <pgimeno> it'd be interesting to see a Gray counter
13:24:53 <ehird> p.s. pgimeno could you put my stepper as a button it's kind of awkawrd pasting it in :P
13:25:14 <ehird> also, whtspc, that counter is neat
13:25:20 <ehird> looks really pretty
13:25:35 <pgimeno> ehird: I'm working in the animator but a bit more complete than that :)
13:25:46 <ehird> pgimeno: how can you be more complete? its all you need :P
13:26:04 <ehird> note: if you put the thing in multiple times it goes faster
13:27:09 <whtspc> Really curious how colours could take part in language
13:27:15 <whtspc> i would love to see it
13:27:30 <whtspc> but there's as far as I know not real use to it
13:27:31 <Slereah_> Well, you could replace 0/1 by 0/255
13:28:02 <ehird> whtspc: easier to do arithmetic
13:28:10 <ehird> just represent them as coloured pixels
13:28:20 <ehird> i.e. it's useful as both a programming convenience and as colouromatic
13:28:52 <Slereah_> Just put the red green blue intensity as two bits each
13:29:11 <ehird> well duh that's just rgb colors
13:29:50 <whtspc> It does in fact make the language more brainfuck than bool/smallfuck then?
13:29:51 <ehird> whtspc: could i have a swf please? :) pgimeno's interp is a bit sketchy as far as animation goes
13:30:16 <Slereah_> Although really, for a nice display, there should probably be one part memory and one part screen.
13:30:25 <Slereah_> Otherwise it will be an epileptic nightmare.
13:30:40 <whtspc> yeah working on it now, can I pack it? I can't upload from here
13:30:41 <ehird> Slereah_: all the ones i've seen look fine
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13:32:14 <ehird> btw, i found out about paintfuck because hideous pointed me to it, i don't know if you know him or something
13:33:09 <whtspc> http://www.willhostforfood.com/access.php?fileid=43043
13:33:31 <whtspc> I only know he's at tigsource too
13:35:45 <whtspc> http://willhostforfood.com/access.php?fileid=43044
13:36:22 <whtspc> better download it to your desktop insted of using it in a browser
13:36:26 <Slereah_> Did you get that host for a sandwich?
13:36:28 <whtspc> then it gets really slow
13:37:25 <fizzie> There's a bfvga somewhere; it uses the 320x200-pixel video memory of that one standard VGA mode as the brainfuck array.
13:37:47 <ehird> ok, now to golf a "white the whole screen"
13:39:28 <ehird> on some forum somewhere
13:39:58 <ehird> whtspc: wait, how does that do each square?
13:40:37 <whtspc> the screen is wrapping (what some of your collegues here find disgusting :))
13:40:39 <ehird> nooga: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=3710.0
13:41:22 <Slereah_> I'm not sure you can compress it much more
13:42:09 <Slereah_> Whatever happened to Unikitten?
13:42:21 <ehird> whtspc: *[[s*]*e*]*
13:44:18 * ehird writes a langton ant
13:45:10 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langton's_ant
13:48:30 <ehird> the problem is that you have to keep track which way you're going
13:48:35 <ehird> so that you know how to turn 90 degrees
13:48:51 <ehird> and it's hard to do that without messing with other squares (Read: impossible)
13:49:01 <ehird> so you'd like have to free every other step
13:49:03 <ehird> and that's just ugly
13:49:46 <pgimeno> whtspc: the animation is done, in case you didn't notice :)
13:50:44 <ehird> Slereah_: hey, yes!
13:50:54 <ehird> whtspc: that's why colours are useful
13:51:03 <ehird> you can still display graphics prettily while passing around hard-to-pass-around internal dat a
13:51:54 <Slereah_> Plus you can make a groovy looking TM.
13:52:16 <ehird> an inverted mover!
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13:54:32 <ehird> whtspc: *[[se*nwnw*se*se]*]
13:55:14 <ehird> pgimeno: whtspc: *[[se*nwnw*se*se]*[ne*swsw*ne*ne]*]
13:55:23 <ehird> i don't know what it does
13:57:10 <whtspc> ehird: I like that one
13:57:18 <Slereah_> Maybe we should make some sort of program that would determine if a particular piece of code halts.
13:57:19 <ehird> Slereah_: maybe after 34587345345 years :P
13:57:25 <ehird> Slereah_: INTERESTING IDEA
13:57:40 <whtspc> like I stated before, bugs can be really beautiful
13:57:53 <Slereah_> I'LL FIRE UP MY ANALYTICAL ENGINE AND TRY IT
13:57:57 <ehird> i really don't t hink it follows any discernable pattern after a while
13:58:16 <ehird> it seems to be eating up the whole grid
13:58:24 <ehird> and pooping out little white dots every now and then.
13:58:27 <whtspc> my binary counter : *[ss*s[*]n[e*s[*]n]*e[*nn[*n*ss*n]sse]ne[*e]*w*[*w*]*]
13:59:22 <whtspc> is also beautiful with a bug in the code: *[ss*s[*]n[e*s[*]n]*e[*nn[*nn<bug*ss*n]sse]ne[*e]*w*[*w*]*]
13:59:23 <ehird> the worm actually -bounces- off squares
13:59:32 <ehird> while leaving its trail
13:59:38 <ehird> and it eliminates squares it bounces off
14:00:19 <ehird> it looks like a turing machine
14:02:19 <whtspc> pgimeno:cool! animation is indeed faster in flash than js
14:02:29 <ehird> *[[s*nn*s*s]*[e*ww*e*e]*]
14:02:33 <ehird> a slight modification of my last one
14:02:45 <ehird> wonder what it'll do when it gets to the edge
14:02:52 <whtspc> I for myself like the fact that cellpointer is at 0,0 at the start
14:03:09 <ehird> *[[s*nn*s*s]*[e*ww*e*e]*]
14:03:15 <ehird> when it g ets to the end
14:03:25 <ehird> it starts obliterating everything DIAGONALLY
14:03:34 <ehird> even though it has no diagonal instructions, it's just the clashing of the two loops
14:03:53 <ehird> wonder what'll happen when it drills the whole screen
14:05:01 <pgimeno> whtspc: I believe that ideally it's an infinite grid and based the origin on that
14:05:14 <ehird> nah, wrapping is what makes some of the programs cool
14:05:37 <ehird> woo, the evil tyranny of the multiple pods has been destroyed, now it seems to be wondering about aimlessly for no reason
14:05:55 <whtspc> I'm actually not really a esolang-type, more a genart-type :)
14:06:07 <ehird> they overlap i'd say
14:06:09 <pgimeno> so, well, "it's just another brainfuck variant, boring..." huh? ;)
14:06:23 <ehird> pgimeno: I stab you with a fork.
14:06:43 <whtspc> got to go, maybe catch you guys later
14:06:57 <pgimeno> whtspc: it'd be nice to get it added to the wiki
14:06:58 <whtspc> questions or suggestions at the tigsource-link?
14:07:11 <whtspc> should I do that myself?
14:07:26 <pgimeno> well, better than letting someone else
14:07:40 <ehird> yeah, just put it on the wiki :)
14:07:43 <whtspc> :) Ok I trhought it's maybe rude to do
14:07:45 * ehird watches his program go
14:07:56 <ehird> and nah, we add our own stuff to the wiki all the time, it's good for getting feedback
14:08:14 <ehird> *[[[n*e*]e*]*[[s*w*]w*]*]
14:08:19 <ehird> takes a while to get properly started
14:08:22 <ehird> but seems to be interesting past that
14:08:41 -!- whtspc has left (?).
14:09:01 <ehird> anyway, what this needs iis a bitmap->program thing, so that we can write e.g. worms
14:09:05 <ehird> that slither around and eat stuff
14:09:08 <ehird> on a predefined map
14:09:21 <ehird> maybe even a Snake AI :P
14:10:51 <pgimeno> it's like... what will it do next?
14:12:15 <ehird> *[[se*e*e*e*e*s*s*s*s*w*w*w*w*n*n*n*n]*]
14:16:10 <pgimeno> this one is nice too: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=3710.msg110154#msg110154
14:17:48 <ehird> if i leave it on forever does it wrap around? :O
14:20:21 <ehird> pgimeno: *[e*]*[s*[n*es*]*]
14:21:24 <ehird> moving two lines :P
14:33:16 <ehird> *[e*]*ssssss*[e*]*n*[[*ne*]*se*[*se*]*ne*]
14:48:21 <ehird> *[[ee*]*ss*]*nw*[[*nw*]*[*se*]*[*n*]*[*s*]*[*ne*]*[*sw*]*[*e*]*[*w*]*]
14:48:32 <ehird> om nom nom nom nom
15:07:25 <ehird> *[[e*]*[[e*]e]w*w*s*]*[*e*s*w*n*sese]
15:16:45 <ehird> *[[*n*s*e*w*s*e*s*e]swsw*[*n*e*s*w*n*w*n*w*]*]
15:35:51 <ehird> paintfuck is funnn
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17:21:57 <oerjan> <Slereah_> So don't talk about that time you murdered that prostitute here.
17:22:44 <Slereah_> Hey oerjan, remember that time you murdered that prostitute?
17:23:44 <oerjan> i don't want to talk about it.
17:24:06 <Slereah_> Well played, oerjan, well played.
17:25:31 <oerjan> that blood all over the place stuff can be a bit traumatic.
17:29:19 <oerjan> Asztal: It's pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
17:33:33 <pgimeno> I've made it faster by iterating several times... it seems that Firefox has a lower bound on the ms in setTimeout
17:35:38 <jayCampbell> that's true of every operating system that doesn't call itself "realtime"
17:36:07 <pgimeno> as a drawback, now raising the timeout makes it work "jerky"
17:37:13 -!- Mony has quit (Nick collision from services.).
17:37:21 <pgimeno> Asztal: nice pattern for such simple rules :)
17:37:33 -!- M0ny has joined.
17:38:01 <Asztal> even better, *[[*e]*[*n]*[w]*[s]*] seems to generate mazes :)
17:40:41 <Slereah_> There should be a way to speed up the process
17:41:29 <ehird> nesw move in that direction, * flips bit at that point, and [] do what you expect.
17:41:35 <ehird> Flip bit = white or black in the display.
17:41:56 <ehird> warrie: http://willhostforfood.com/access.php?fileid=43044 Interp.
17:42:03 <ehird> If you're on windows, willhostforfood.com/files3/7766096/pain.rar
17:42:41 <ehird> Asztal: do a langton's ant!
17:43:31 <Asztal> http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~icecube/tag/paintfuck/ <- that guy did a rule 110 automaton
17:43:46 * warrie reverses the polarity on Wine
17:44:04 <Asztal> I was thinking of doing conway's game of life
17:44:11 <warrie> I'm guessing pain.rar is not actually the interpreter.
17:44:20 <Asztal> though I don't think it's as well suited as I first thought
17:44:26 <ehird> It contains an exe.
17:44:32 <ehird> But, for non-Windows:
17:44:37 <ehird> http://willhostforfood.com/access.php?fileid=43044
17:44:47 <warrie> Oh, right, .rar is a compression format.
17:44:49 <ehird> Azstal: one char mod of yours - *[[e]*[*n]*[w]*[*s]*]
17:47:15 <ehird> btw, wanna see a spiral?
17:47:28 <ehird> lemme type it out again
17:47:51 <Asztal> hmm, it would probably be hard to do langton's ant because it needs to keep state
17:48:00 <ehird> make the squares 2x2
17:48:06 <ehird> and store the direction state in some of them
17:48:34 <pgimeno> I'm trying a different approach
17:48:46 <pgimeno> keep the state as the program's current position
17:49:43 <ehird> Azstal: wn*[[n*]*s*s[w*]*e*e[s*]*n*n[e*]*w*w]
17:49:47 <ehird> fscks up on the last bit
17:50:47 <oklokok> so paintfuck. i wish i wasn't too lazy to check it out.
17:50:48 <ehird> oklokok try paintfuck
17:51:08 <ehird> paintfuck in one line:
17:51:13 <ehird> nesw, move pointer one that directio
17:51:19 <ehird> * flip pixel at direction white/black
17:51:23 <ehird> [] loop while black
17:51:43 <oklokok> if that's it, i'm almost impressed
17:51:47 <ehird> oklokok: interp: http://willhostforfood.com/files3/7766096/pain.rar
17:52:41 <Asztal> I'm still randomly modifying this one and it's generating some weird stuff: *[[*e]*[*n]*[w*]*[*s]*]
17:53:42 <ehird> wn*[[n*]*s[w*]*e*e[s*]*n*n[e*]*w]
17:53:48 <ehird> that messes itself up
17:53:54 <ehird> into many little spirals
17:54:28 <warrie> Asztal: I wouldn't be one bit surprised if that one were Turing-complete.
17:54:46 <ehird> quite a few look like turing machines
17:54:53 <warrie> It looks like a computer, indeed.
17:54:54 <oerjan> lessee, boolfuck without IO can be trivially imbedded into it not? so TC.
17:55:07 <ehird> it's based on smallfuck
17:55:12 <ehird> the canvas is finite
17:55:20 <ehird> it's needed for most of the drawing trix
17:56:01 <warrie> Is there a way to make the canvas bigger?
17:56:12 <Asztal> there is in the javascript one
17:56:12 <ehird> Not on the fast flash interp
17:56:21 <Asztal> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck.php
17:56:35 <warrie> This needs to be compiled, you know.
17:56:52 <ehird> asz, that one is slow
17:57:29 <Asztal> it did get a lot faster when it was modified to get around setTimeout's restrictions
17:57:41 <Asztal> I haven't tried the .exe, though
17:58:05 <warrie> What's a simple language with addressable memory?
17:58:08 <oklokok> is [] loop while white or while black?
17:58:15 <ehird> the .exe/.swf is the best
17:58:18 <ehird> oklokok: for the swf, while white
17:59:11 <ehird> pgimeno's interp changes it
17:59:29 <oklokok> i'd prefer one where background color is true.
17:59:40 <ehird> oklokok: why? brainfuck starts off all 0
17:59:52 <GregorR> pgimeno: I'm not sure what package provides 'reset' :P
17:59:56 <oklokok> ehird: would just happen to work better for my purpose.
18:00:05 <ehird> oklokok: just white out t he screen:
18:00:12 <oklokok> ehird: yes, guess i should
18:00:31 <oerjan> oklokok: just sprinkle some * around the loop ends, i think?
18:00:35 <GregorR> Nov 29 05:13:53 <pgimeno> GregorR: What do you do in the console when your local characters are not echoed? I used "reset" in that case but there's no "reset" in bin/
18:01:01 <oerjan> *[* and *]* should work like [ and ] but with reversed polarity. i think.
18:01:08 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
18:01:13 <ehird> REVERSED POLAARITYYYYYYYYYYY
18:01:24 <warrie> I think Subleq will work for my purposes.
18:01:42 <pgimeno> GregorR: $ dpkg -S /usr/bin/reset
18:01:42 <pgimeno> GregorR: ncurses-bin: /usr/bin/reset
18:01:45 <oklokok> [ has a side-effect if you jump?
18:01:50 <oerjan> hm there may be something wrong if it moves...
18:02:14 <GregorR> pgimeno: zomg, it's in ncurses? So then I've just been sitting on it :P
18:02:18 <GregorR> OK, I can add that to the env, easy.
18:02:32 -!- Corun has joined.
18:02:43 <warrie> Now we need to figure out a reasonably fast way to compile Subleq into Paintfuck.
18:03:10 <warrie> I find the concept rather painful to contemplate.
18:03:40 * warrie suddenly remembers his idea for a Compiler monad in Haskell
18:04:12 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
18:04:22 <pgimeno> btw, if you guys save the page locally, you can modify the animstep() function to add more lines and multiply the speed further
18:04:45 <oklokok> is the swf nicer, the exe can't be stopped?
18:05:00 <oklokok> i mean if you make it infloop, you can't stop it
18:05:09 <ehird> oklokok: the swf is the exe
18:05:14 <warrie> oklokok: empty the program box and hit run?
18:05:16 <ehird> replace the code section with nothing
18:05:40 <oklokok> abort the script, and the program didn't close
18:05:45 <oklokok> okay thanks flash that was nice of you
18:06:06 <oklokok> ehird: what happens on *[] in your end?
18:06:16 <ehird> ah yeah that fails
18:06:25 <ehird> other infloops work
18:07:18 <oklokok> but i don't want to look at the io flickering when i'm coding.
18:07:26 <oklokok> and i don't want to have to remove the code and put it back all the time
18:07:33 <oklokok> it's just not a nice coding experience
18:07:55 <ehird> just remove all the code
18:07:57 <ehird> just put nothing in
18:11:19 <warrie> Subleq has a finite number of infinite registers; Paintfuck has a 2D infinite grid of finite cells.
18:12:42 <ehird> paintfuck grid is finite
18:13:15 <warrie> Paintfuck Infinite Edition has a 2D infinite grid of finite cells.
18:13:25 <oerjan> warrie: subleq has infinite number of cells
18:13:37 <oerjan> i think you're confusing with minsky machine
18:15:33 <oerjan> 2D might help, you can store subleq cells as parallel rows
18:16:08 <warrie> Oh, it's self-modifying.
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18:16:25 <warrie> Okay, so an infinite number of infinite registers.
18:19:41 <oklokok> a bit hard to believe you can do with just one instruction
18:19:51 <oklokok> with just one third of an instruction
18:20:01 <GregorR> oklokok: I meant one of the "infinity"s
18:20:20 <jayCampbell> a few infinitely-large numbers can mimick an infinite number of registers
18:20:23 <oklokok> GregorR: i know what you meant
18:20:39 <oklokok> stop treating me like a child and start treating me like the asshole i am!
18:32:46 <oklokok> glaaaaahhhh i want a step-by-step
18:33:27 <ehird> oklokok: there's one on pgimeonroneroenr's
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18:41:13 <pgimeno> I was considering to add a little trace
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18:49:01 <oklokok> hehe, did rule 110, accidentally pressed c instead of ctrl+x, and removed everything just before final test \o/
18:49:39 <oklokok> now i get to do it again!!
18:49:48 <oklokok> jayCampbell: yeah that doesn't work.
18:50:09 <jayCampbell> oh you're in that flash app not a textarea
18:50:32 <oklokok> well yes, i figured it's too trivial to require anything that fancy
18:51:00 <oklokok> but it's quite verbose as i'm not doing it in a very clever way, just copying the rule pretty straightforwardly
18:51:25 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:52:05 <warrie> *[[e]*[n]*[w]*[*s]*] starts off moving in a rather complicated manner.
18:53:12 <ehird> you can use ctrl-z
18:53:51 <oklokok> ehird: i can also use ctrl-r for a nop.
18:56:43 <warrie> *[[e]*[*n]*[*w]*[s*]*] is really slow.
18:57:34 <warrie> I think it actually counts in binary up to a power of 2 every once in a while.
18:58:38 <warrie> Yeah. So, um, we'll only ever be able to see this do something *else* if we do some dramatic optimization.
18:59:01 <warrie> ehird, did you know that incrementing something until it reaches a certain value is the same as setting it to that value?
18:59:15 <warrie> Because, um, tell the interpreter that. :-P
19:00:09 <warrie> This program is counting in binary. Someone ought to find a way to make it skip that part.
19:03:27 <oklokok> i don't feel like thinking, how should 110 start
19:03:45 <warrie> By toggling a single cell, I think.
19:04:09 <warrie> #esoteric: Great Thinkers who Don't.
19:05:49 <oerjan> well, you have no 010 in there
19:06:21 <warrie> It means not all possibilities were exhausted, so give us more rows.
19:06:30 <ehird> oklokok: 110 is done
19:06:46 <oklokok> ehird: that's not really a surprise, i just made it.
19:07:12 <jayCampbell> > Police say two handguns recovered at the scene indicate the two men shot each other. No one else in the packed store was killed or injured during the melee.
19:07:21 <oklokok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p562634344.txt
19:07:25 <oklokok> most of that is just for clarity
19:07:29 <oklokok> i could take more than half out
19:07:43 <oklokok> but anyway, it'd still be pretty bloated, i didn't really try, i'm so goddamn tired atm
19:07:57 <oerjan> _maybe_ they just beat each other with the guns
19:08:46 <oklokok> most of that is just copying things around and nulling parts of the screen, which i could easily do in the actual logic, that's just simpler to read.
19:08:55 <warrie> oerjan: it says "shot each other", though.
19:09:04 <warrie> They must have poked each other with their guns as they shot each other.
19:09:15 <oklokok> ehird: how big is the other one then?
19:09:25 <ehird> oklokok: few pages
19:09:27 <oklokok> anyway, i consider that a trivial task, just wanted to see what it looks like
19:09:41 <oklokok> it's like you told me no use writing a factorial in haskell because someone did that already.
19:10:10 <oklokok> no. the other one was just written by a noob.
19:10:32 <oerjan> oklokok: you _have_ seen http://www.willamette.edu/~fruehr/haskell/evolution.html haven't you? :D
19:10:53 <warrie> I tried to write a threaded, GADT-using factorial in Haskell, but then realized the operations couldn't be defined recursively, as only one copy of each could be running at once.
19:10:58 <oklokok> tbh i'm not sure how to make that code *longer*, that may require more thinking than making it smaller
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19:11:29 <oklokok> oerjan: i dropped off the train at some point. but that was awesome otherwise
19:11:39 <oklokok> ...so yes, or at least i tried
19:11:46 <oklokok> and good point, i guess *it's been done* :)
19:13:50 <oklokok> ehird: can i see the other 110?
19:14:28 <ehird> oklokok: amazing.awesome.com
19:16:09 <oklokok> blergh i can't find it too hard
19:17:35 <oklokok> anyway i think i should go
19:18:01 <Asztal> http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~icecube/tag/paintfuck/
19:18:49 <oklokok> well that's quite well-spaced, i doubt it's actually that much longer than mine.
19:19:27 * warrie ponders Subleq in Paintfuck
19:19:39 <oklokok> actually i can't count, i can't open my python.
19:21:07 <warrie> I guess you have rows and columns, and each column is one memory address, and numbers are stored in binary or something. Finite amounts of information can be tossed under it all.
19:22:08 * warrie ponders Paintfuck in Subleq
19:23:45 <warrie> Each Paintfuck column can be two "tapes", each represented by two memory addresses. Manipulating the tapes ought to be easy enough.
19:24:21 <warrie> And then you figure out how to optimize it enough that Paintfuck-in-Subleq-in-Paintfuck and Subleq-in-Paintfuck-in-Subleq don't slow things.
19:24:51 <warrie> Which is really difficult.
19:24:54 <oklokok> lol please someone calculate the number of instructions in the two 110's so i can be at peace... :D
19:25:13 <warrie> oklokok: do you have the two 110s in your possession?
19:25:18 <oklokok> http://ded.johnmarkkearney.com/~locus/automata4.txt
19:25:33 <oklokok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p562634344.txt
19:26:01 <oklokok> just remove whitespace and count characters, that's just impossible in notepad/wordpad
19:26:53 <oklokok> i'm bruteforcing something in python for the second day now, and only one python IDLE instance can be open at once :d
19:27:03 <oklokok> i mean, sometimes only one can
19:27:10 <oklokok> and when that happens i'd have to close it
19:27:13 <oklokok> but the computation would die
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19:28:55 <oklokok> warrie: i assume you accepted the challenge?
19:30:09 <oklokok> i mean it's not like it takes more than 20 seconds
19:30:29 <oklokok> assuming you have python or an equivalent thingie.
19:31:05 <warrie> Do a web search for "javascript character count".
19:31:22 <oklokok> well i have one on vjn.fi, but i'm not sure whether that counts newlines
19:31:34 <Asztal> oklokok: apparently, his is 951 while yours is 236
19:31:39 <Asztal> but I wouldn't trust this
19:31:52 <Asztal> it doesn't look like 236 to me
19:32:54 <oklokok> is there a scripting language guy here..? :P
19:33:09 <oklokok> or should i just trust you
19:33:15 <oklokok> how could you have gotten it wrong
19:33:24 <Asztal> str.bytes.count{|c| "news*[]".index c.chr}
19:34:17 <oklokok> is that a filter for what to count?
19:34:35 <oklokok> i don't get the index thing.
19:35:06 <Asztal> "abc".index 'b' returns 1
19:35:16 <Asztal> and it returns nil if it wasn't there
19:35:42 <oklokok> the c.chr is the thing that's searched in the array.
19:36:02 <oklokok> okay yeah i need a moment to get into ruby, never really having programmed in it.
19:36:31 <Asztal> I'm currently trying to get out of ruby
19:36:32 <oklokok> (except once did something with ehird's bot, but maybe i just fixed his code and didn't write my own don't remember)
19:37:17 <Asztal> hmm... oh, I included the header
19:37:21 <oklokok> i'm trying to do that for python, mainly because programming has lost its spark, because everything is so goddamn trivial in python.
19:37:41 <oklokok> well k it's not that much longer then
19:37:54 <oklokok> not that i can think of a way to get it at all longer
19:38:12 <oklokok> guess that's a skill you lose with time
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21:45:29 <ehird> We have changed the release model so that instead of focusing on quality and features our release is now defined by timeliness and features. Quality is not regarded to be that important.
21:46:21 <oklokok> quality is just the retarded stepdad of quantity
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22:56:30 <ehird> if you put a cd in a slit-drive thingy
22:56:36 <ehird> and it won't come out
23:00:55 <warrie> Look for a little hole next to the slit drive. If there's one, I stick a paper clip in it.
23:01:45 <warrie> There are fuzzy things at the top and bottom, right?
23:02:03 <warrie> Prop them apart and see if you can see your CD.
23:02:42 <warrie> Make sure you don't lose anything into the drive.
23:02:48 <warrie> That would be expensive of you.
23:02:54 <ehird> too close together, but I know the cd is there.
23:02:57 <ehird> (I poked it with another CD.)
23:03:23 <warrie> Oh. Just grab it and pull it out.
23:03:28 <warrie> I assume your fingers are paper-thin.
23:03:58 <warrie> Use... hmm, I think there are very thin grabber devices, but I'm not sure what they're called.
23:04:09 <ehird> Yeah um I dont'exactly have em to hand.
23:04:13 <warrie> Something a lot like tweezers.
23:04:50 <ehird> Hm. http://guides.macrumors.com/Force_Eject_a_Stuck_CD_or_DVD
23:06:29 <warrie> You've tried everything on the page?
23:06:55 <ehird> apart from the rebooting shit
23:07:16 <warrie> Well, try the rebooting shit.
23:07:39 <ehird> I'd rather not, you see.
23:07:56 <ehird> It wsa my damn virtual machine!
23:08:37 <warrie> Your last resort ought to be using custom-made tools to get it out.
23:09:25 <ehird> last resort: open the computer and yank it out.
23:09:33 <ehird> If it's stuck, smash it.
23:09:39 <ehird> If that breaks the disc drive, get a new one.
23:09:43 <ehird> If I can't, get a new computer.
23:09:48 <ehird> If I can't afford one, become a hermit.
23:10:22 <warrie> Only do that if you can't use custom-made tools to get it out.
23:10:37 <warrie> Though I've always found secular asceticism admirable.
23:10:53 <warrie> At least, I found it admirable from the moment I read the Wikipedia article titled "Asceticism".
23:11:32 <ehird> i'm such a technojunkie, never could do that :D
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23:51:01 <oklokok> cd's are so yesterdays newspapers.
23:52:10 <ehird> oklokok: internet connections are not really fast enough to use them for everything :P
23:52:58 <oklokok> warrie: you don't by any chance know a nice book for understanding curry-howard? i'm not getting there from the wp page, and i like to get my book suggestions from humans.
23:53:05 <oklokok> ehird: sure is such a strong word
23:53:16 <oklokok> but what does it really mean? i mean is it really a word, even
23:53:40 <oklokok> oh dear have i said something uneasifying?!?!?!?
23:54:30 <oklokok> scratch all that, i made no sense
23:54:41 <oklokok> i mean until the warrie highlight, that was proper business.
23:55:38 <oklokok> well, oerjan probably reads at least the highlight parts of logs, so, oerjan, see above
23:57:30 <ehird> oklokok: let's make paintfuck programs
23:59:02 <warrie> You want to understand the Curry-Howard isomorphism?
23:59:21 * warrie ponders his various definitions of "understand"
23:59:23 <oklokok> mainly because it sounds like a trivial concept, but i have no idea about the specifics.
23:59:43 <warrie> Can you tell me what the Curry-Howard isomorphism is?
23:59:54 <oklokok> it's some kinda correspondence.
23:59:56 <warrie> As a question, not a request-because-I-don't-know.
00:00:26 <oklokok> i haven't actually read about it, nor do i know anything about it.
00:00:46 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:00:49 <oklokok> except that it's some kinda natural correspondence between theorems and programs' types and such somethings yes.
00:00:57 <oklokok> warrie: sure, except not right now... :P
00:01:10 <warrie> I'll tell you later, then?
00:01:38 <warrie> Tell me when you want me to tell you, I guess.
00:01:54 <ehird> warrie: businession list for b nomic
00:02:09 <oklokok> sure. will probably ask in pm unless you have some moral oblication to that.
00:02:15 <ehird> do you make up a new name every time
00:02:19 <warrie> ehird: you finally noticed. I've had it set that way for years. :-)
00:02:38 <warrie> "You finally noticed" meaning "you're the first one to notice".
00:02:40 <ehird> warrie: I remember when you registered to "discussion list for B Nomic <spoon-business@nomic.net>"
00:02:52 <ehird> i remember being really confused.
00:03:15 <warrie> That's because Gmail filled in "discussion list for B Nomic" <spoon-discuss@nomic.net>, and I replaced the "discuss" with "business".
00:03:26 <ehird> warrie: set a-b as "business list for B Nomic"
00:03:28 <warrie> Since that seemed to cause confusion, I also replaced the other "discuss" with "business".
00:03:29 <ehird> and s-b as "Agora Business"
00:04:45 <warrie> a-b is "B Nomic list for Agora", s-b is "B Nomic list for Spoon", a-d is "discussion list for Agora", and s-d is "discussion list for Spoon".
00:04:45 <ehird> let's write game of life in paintfuck
00:04:54 <ehird> warrie: no, that's easily spottable
00:04:58 <ehird> make it so that people are confused
00:05:04 <ehird> a-b = discussion list for B Nomic
00:05:07 <ehird> a-d = business list for B Nomic
00:05:10 <ehird> s-b = Agora Discussion
00:05:14 <ehird> s-d = Agora Business
00:05:34 <ehird> oklokok: game of life can't be hard right?
00:06:39 <warrie> I'm sure Game of Life wouldn't be hard.
00:06:43 <warrie> It might be tedious, but not hard.
00:07:02 <warrie> I just realized that many puzzles are hard to do non-tediously.
00:09:25 <warrie> *[[e]*[*n]*[*w]*[s*]*] is still running, by the way. I know exactly what it's going to do for about the next 2^40 steps, which is annoying, because I'd rather tell it than wait that long. Someone update that interpreter to let me alter memory by clicking on it.
00:10:22 <ehird> warrie: Use pgimenos
00:10:28 <ehird> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck.php
00:10:33 <ehird> You can give it step count etc
00:10:36 <ehird> but for animation it's slow
00:10:38 <ehird> so use the flash one
00:11:23 <ehird> write a program that puts the memory in the right state
00:11:25 <ehird> then use the program
00:14:09 <ehird> warrie: Doesn't it just sit there after a while?
00:15:16 <ehird> *[[e*]*[*n]*[w*]*[s*]*] <- Machine-esque behaviour.
00:15:27 <warrie> With pgimenos I can't click it to edit memory?
00:15:39 <ehird> But you can set N = 100,000
00:15:42 <ehird> and press run/continue a lot
00:15:51 <ehird> Or, you could write a program to set the memory to how it should be from the c urrent state
00:15:53 <ehird> then run your program
00:16:07 <ehird> *[[e*]*[*n]*[w*]*[s*]*] sure does seem to have a plan.
00:16:47 <ehird> Huh, it's getting rid of its bars.
00:17:07 <ehird> Haha it's like it's building a house
00:17:12 <ehird> warrie: Watch *[[e*]*[*n]*[w*]*[s*]*] in the flash interp
00:19:12 <ehird> You know, I think it might be turing comelpt
00:19:17 <ehird> It looks it after a while.
00:19:32 <ehird> It moves about lines and bashes them into things then weaves and unweaves stuff transforming it over time.
00:21:54 <ehird> It's funny how one basic program structure, only changing the placing of *s and the ordering of the items
00:21:57 <ehird> can produce so many combinations
00:21:59 <ehird> many of which look TC
00:22:29 <ehird> *[[e*]*[*n]*[w*]*[*s]*]
00:23:33 <jayCampbell> Eliot Hird on Solving the Halting Problem Using Visual Approximations of Turing Completeness
00:23:43 <ehird> jayCampbell: lol wat
00:26:40 <warrie> jayCampbell was just being modest, ehird.
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00:27:05 <ehird> *[[e]*[n]*[w*]*[*s]*]
00:27:11 <ehird> Seems interesting, at least.
00:27:14 <ehird> Pretty, certainly.
00:34:15 <ehird> *[[e*e*]*[n*]*[ww*]*[*s]*] it's prodding at memory :O
00:34:30 <ehird> using an increasing-height stick XD
00:36:22 <GreaseMonkey> GregorR: for JSMIPS, i recommend that you allow it to idle a little; firefox gave me the "unresponsive script" warning 4 times when i was loading vim. also, when do you think you'll have write support working?
00:36:43 <GregorR> GreaseMonkey: write works ... it writes to memory ^^
00:36:44 <ehird> setTimeout(function () { this.step() }, 0)
00:36:50 <ehird> i know because i wrote that line :\
00:37:15 <GreaseMonkey> then what's the problem with the "Operation not supported" thing in vim?
00:37:27 <GregorR> GreaseMonkey: Non-existent on my system :P
00:37:51 <GregorR> What? What are you talking about?
00:38:11 <GregorR> Where do you see this message?
00:38:38 <GregorR> What is the ACTUAL MESSAGE PRODUCED
00:39:11 <GreaseMonkey> it was number 296, something about seeking in a swap file, and operation not supported.
00:39:47 <GregorR> GreaseMonkey: Y'know, I fixed the copy/paste problem ... you can copy and paste.
00:40:19 <GregorR> GreaseMonkey: Your compute is slow, isn't it :P
00:40:41 <GregorR> It takes ~30 seconds here.
00:40:57 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: Wow that's awful
00:40:58 <GregorR> Lemme guess, Firefox 1? :P
00:41:08 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: Upgrade you moron.
00:41:16 <warrie> Why are we loading vim in 30 seconds?
00:41:23 <ehird> There's absolutely no reason to use ff2.
00:41:24 <GregorR> Firefox 3 has much faster JS support.
00:41:35 <GregorR> warrie: http://codu.org/jsmips/
00:41:35 <ehird> Apart from irrational and unfounded hatred of the awesomebar
00:41:50 <GregorR> GreaseMonkey: I'm aware :P
00:42:16 <GreaseMonkey> i do happen to have firefox 3 as well, but that's a windows version, and i've been lazy
00:42:52 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: welp, upgrade or suffer.
00:43:42 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: You're so hardcore, you compile everything from source!
00:43:52 <GregorR> ehird: Yeah, but so's your face.
00:43:55 * GregorR is working on Nethack now.
00:44:00 <GregorR> Nethack = best use of JSMIPS EVAR
00:44:25 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: I wish I could be as cool as you! Compiling everything! Oh! You're so 1337! What do you mean, pointless? Unf unf unf unf.
00:44:28 <warrie> I prefer worthwhile things, like trying to get permission to do something I'm allowed to do anyway.
00:44:29 <Sgeo> I think Firebug doesn't work as well with Firefox 3 :(
00:44:47 <Asztal> get w3m running so we can run jsmips in it
00:44:57 <GreaseMonkey> also, when i say that it takes 5 minutes to load, that's how long it takes to get to the first screen
00:45:00 <ehird> the main devs use ff3.
00:45:16 <Asztal> it even works fine with the 3.1 nightlies too
00:45:51 <GreaseMonkey> 296: Seek error in swap file: Operation not supported
00:47:56 <GreaseMonkey> there's a few keystrokes you may want to convert
00:48:45 <ehird> i did the fancy input code
00:50:06 <GreaseMonkey> should i do that while copying across all the freebsd 7.1-BETA2 files?
00:51:30 <oklokok> in fact you can prove by induction that all numbers are numbers
00:52:44 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: use a fcking binary >_<
00:52:52 <oklokok> GreaseMonkey: that's circular logic......
00:52:53 <GregorR> ehird: I fancied up the input code more.
00:52:59 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: And?
00:53:08 <ehird> Do you have to be a retard to use FreeBSD?
00:53:10 <GregorR> ehird: Previously it only accepted ASCII, now it does control codes etc (the software just doesn't interpret them usefully ;) )
00:53:15 <ehird> Are you required to compile all your own binaries?
00:53:17 <ehird> For no good reason?
00:53:30 <GreaseMonkey> ehird: unless you want to get them from packages
00:53:37 <ehird> And why wouldn't you.
00:53:41 <GreaseMonkey> in which case you'd yell at me for getting old crap
00:53:43 <oklokok> stop making sense, it's very late and you should be saying random nonsense like meeeeeee
00:53:51 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: Woo! FreeBSD!
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00:54:12 <GregorR> oklokok: The air was religion with suppressed excitement!
00:54:31 <GreaseMonkey> also, you don't get binaries for linux unless you get them from your "vendor"
00:54:42 <oklokok> yes GregorR how about a nice bowl of eggs on top of that ;)
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00:55:13 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: so why does your 'vendor' suck
00:55:50 <GreaseMonkey> ehird: my "vendor" supplies me with very fresh ports scripts, and all i have to do is fetch them
00:55:52 <Asztal> I can't get man to work without consuming massive amounts of RAM :(
00:56:07 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: and spend 6345345 hours compiling them for no game
00:56:11 <ehird> your vendor sucks.
00:57:03 <GregorR> For anybody who didn't get my reference, you need to watch this: http://brothersmcleod.co.uk/films/watch/23
00:57:19 <GreaseMonkey> if you love binaries, then get your sad ass back on windows.
00:58:48 <GreaseMonkey> also, if you've used freebsd before, their newest scheduler works really really well
01:00:39 <ehird> GreaseMonkey: Go back to windows! Binaries are not acceptable because... because I say so!
01:01:22 <GreaseMonkey> ehird: windows is not acceptable because it's an underpackaged antifeatured flaming pile of dogshit
01:01:36 <ehird> Yes, you've explained why Windows is not acceptable.
01:01:42 <ehird> Now explain why binaries aren't. Without changing the subject.
01:01:46 <ehird> Which you've done about 3 times already.
01:02:33 <GreaseMonkey> well, if someone gives you a binary, and you don't have the right libc, it shits itself.
01:02:47 <ehird> I thought your vendor was meant to do it?
01:02:49 <GreaseMonkey> whereas if someone gives you the source, you can actually get it to link correctly
01:02:52 <ehird> You know, just like your vendor has to maintain your portfiles.
01:03:20 <GreaseMonkey> your vendor actually ensures that the binaries you get actually work on your system.
01:03:48 <ehird> You're saying your vendor doesn't test its portfiles? Neato. Sounds stable. I'm going now.
01:04:17 <GregorR> Can we stop with the OS/distro wars already, yeesh
01:04:31 <Asztal> *[[e*s*]*[n*w*]*[e*n]*[*s*w]*]
01:04:43 <GregorR> Asztal: That made my brain hurt :P
01:05:13 <Asztal> thankfully I'm not trying to make actual programs in it, just pretty patterns
01:06:06 <oklokok> it's pretty trivial to program in
01:07:01 <GreaseMonkey> there's a couple of BF extensions i like: "if true", and "while false".
01:07:16 <GreaseMonkey> although that shouldn't be so hard to fix up in a 1-bit version.
01:08:46 <GreaseMonkey> although in a 1-bit version, "while false" is pretty pointless.
01:10:31 <GreaseMonkey> befunge is probably one of the most practical esolangs
01:10:58 <GreaseMonkey> but befunge-93 is still pretty practical, if you remove the board size limit
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01:54:37 <pgimeno> got it working: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-langton.pfk
01:56:40 <pgimeno> needs 128x128 to see the repeated pattern at work
02:09:50 <GregorR> For some reason loading a 2MB file temporarily takes 2GB of memory X_X
02:15:16 <GregorR> It takes up 2GB just in the process of DOWNLOADING it, before I've processed it at all. It's just storing a base64-enc'd string at that piont.
02:17:32 <GreaseMonkey> yay, i have two native versions of firefox now \o/
02:17:42 <GreaseMonkey> and when i switch between them, it acts like i've upgraded
02:24:14 <GreaseMonkey> and here, it takes up roughly 200MB to look at it
02:25:19 <GreaseMonkey> about 200MB to look, when cached it'd take up about 100MB
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02:26:04 <cathyal> anyone whose good with functional programming languages
02:26:51 <GreaseMonkey> anyways: 296: Seek error in swap file write: Not supported
02:26:52 <GreaseMonkey> 303: Unable to open swap file for "[No Name]", recovery impossible
02:29:16 <GreaseMonkey> i've worked with perl, python, php, lua, javascript
02:29:35 <GreaseMonkey> and then there's C, various types of ASM, various types of BASIC
02:30:04 <GregorR> I'm familiar with functional languages.
02:30:56 <pikhq> Now is the time for a new-kernel-reboot. See ya in 2.6.26-land.
02:34:45 <GreaseMonkey> FreeBSD roflcopter.mshome 7.1-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.1-PRERELEASE #3: Sun Oct 19 10:56:35 NZDT 2008 root@roflcopter.mshome:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC i386
02:35:36 <GreaseMonkey> crap, i'm going to have to recompile my graphics drivers
02:38:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("I'm a thaasophobic.").
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02:41:00 <GreaseMonkey> FreeBSD roflcopter.mshome 7.1-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.1-PRERELEASE #4: Sat Nov 29 16:08:06 NZDT 2008 ben@roflcopter.mshome:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC i386
02:41:15 <GreaseMonkey> ...i'm gutted it's still called 7.1-PRERELEASE
02:41:21 <GreaseMonkey> but i can tell you, it's definitely an upgrade
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03:18:44 <pgimeno> jayCampbell: mind if I delete the JayCampbell page from the main articles? the right name should be your full name anyway...
03:22:03 <jayCampbell> please do, my User:JayCampbell page is what i'm using now
03:22:14 <jayCampbell> i tried to delete JayCampbell but wasn't allowed
03:29:15 <pgimeno> do you want me to delete the user talk page as well?
03:55:37 <jayCampbell> got an interpreter running for http://esolangs.org/wiki/WALP
03:56:05 <jayCampbell> using unix-clear-as-poor-mans-video-redisplay
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04:21:41 <psygnisf_> you know how some languages are lazy in evaluating conditional bodies?
04:22:25 <psygnisf_> i suppose. i know some do, i dont know about all, but ok
04:22:40 <psygnisf_> are there any languages that dont even /parse/ until they need to?
04:25:29 <jayCampbell> you /can/ do that several ways in any reflective language
04:25:43 <jayCampbell> i can't think of a production language that's lazy parse
04:39:47 <MizardX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ThaM <-- when poping from an empty stack, should the program crash or give a constant (i.e. zero)?
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05:07:52 <psygnisf_> as long as the constant can't be normal data
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05:37:46 <GregorR> My newest discovery: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Schrodilang
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06:13:44 -!- Slereah_ has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | o rly HABEEB IT.
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06:28:00 <oerjan> <oklokok> well, oerjan probably reads at least the highlight parts of logs, so, oerjan, see above
06:29:00 <oerjan> also, i haven't read any books on curry-howard. i just sort of absorb it through osmosis. maybe.
06:29:53 * oerjan realizes he is probably the only one awake
06:30:09 <oerjan> sunday mornings are like that.
06:32:20 <jayCampbell> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:JayCampbell/walp.rb
06:32:42 <oerjan> hey, can one not get a moment's peace in this channel?
06:33:05 <oerjan> bursting in like a herd of buffalo...
06:33:29 <Slereah_> We can't just leave you by yourself
06:33:38 <oerjan> true, that could be dangerous
07:18:16 <oerjan> <jayCampbell> i can't think of a production language that's lazy parse
07:18:26 <oerjan> seems rather counterproductive :D
07:19:25 <oerjan> also, INTERCAL may be lazy parse, parse errors don't apply unless the command is actually run
07:19:45 <oerjan> although the compilers obviously parse in advance anyway
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07:22:27 <oerjan> <GregorR> My newest discovery: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Schrodilang
07:23:02 <oerjan> the programming language with a half-life
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07:38:30 <jayCampbell> how do you tell if a 2d language is turing complete
07:39:12 <jayCampbell> trying to figure out what else could be emulated in walp
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08:38:31 <MizardX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ThaM <-- made an interpreter :)
08:54:16 <MizardX> ... and of cource a bf interpreter in thaM, http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p352643611.txt ... though values values in the cells are unlimited
08:54:59 <jayCampbell> i did this today http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:JayCampbell/walp.rb but don't know how to tell if it's turing complete
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08:56:41 <jayCampbell> only one variable with a 255 max value, but with an expanded grid i can't rule out the possibility
09:00:05 <MizardX> How would you represent the infinite tape?
09:02:04 <jayCampbell> i might be able to simulate Very Large Numbers with branching and pool resets
09:02:40 <jayCampbell> i'm only mucking with this crap bastard of a befunge derivative because it was unimplemented
09:06:00 <jayCampbell> i'm going to implement jumpfuck or weave tomorrow
09:11:19 <MizardX> Hmm... In Weave, when operating on the global array; Does each thread have it's own memory pointer? If so, is that different from the pointer to the local array?
09:13:48 <MizardX> If I had to choose, I'd go with 'yes' on both questions.
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09:52:00 <Slereah_> Does any of you know his Mathematica?
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10:47:15 <lostgeek> no.. I think I found the right place ;)
10:47:55 <lostgeek> someone on the PaintF*** thread mentioned this channel
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10:50:25 <Slereah_> So what brings you to our fine channel?
10:50:37 <Slereah_> Are you seeking to purchase some weed?
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10:51:23 <whtspc> I can't get your application starting
10:52:21 <lostgeek> I'll add some nice buttons to use it without the command line later
11:00:02 <whtspc> Ok sorry got it working
11:00:36 <lostgeek> could be faster. but this way I could even make it interactive so that you can add commands while it is running :)
11:01:09 <lostgeek> I'm seeking for a matching ']‘ everytime I find a '[‘
11:01:14 <whtspc> I like to watch while it's running, so it doesn't have to be too fast
11:02:07 <whtspc> I do it the other way round
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11:02:55 <lostgeek> when I find a '[' I add the pointer to a stack
11:03:15 <lostgeek> and if I need to jump out of the loop I seek the matching ']'
11:03:44 <lostgeek> I don't remember my code well, when I was coding at 2 am ;)
11:10:00 <whtspc> It's very nice I hope you continue development
11:10:11 <whtspc> It would be cool to have input grid
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12:07:44 <pgimeno> don't know if some people missed this... http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-langton.pfk
12:14:17 <lostgeek> mh... doesn't work with my interpreter...
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12:22:37 <pgimeno> I've prepared an uncommented version, I'll put it in the wiki
12:23:36 <pgimeno> what are "atomic statements"?
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12:27:39 <whtspc> atomic statements: someone called them that: [*] will always make current cell 0
12:28:31 <whtspc> I don't know the programmers term for it
12:28:46 <whtspc> [*]* makes current cell 1
12:29:17 <pgimeno> well, these are just common language constructions, I don't think it's necessary to mention them
12:29:26 <pgimeno> mind if I erase that part?
12:31:04 <pgimeno> is the announcement time in the wiki in CET?
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12:32:12 <whtspc> November 30, 2008, 04:31:31 AM there at the moment
12:32:13 <lostgeek> new release: http://lostgeek.de/doku.php/en/geekness/paintfuck/interpreter
12:32:30 <lostgeek> oh.. maybe I should include an jar file *g*
12:32:53 <whtspc> don't know what time that is
12:46:17 <whtspc> great lostgeek, love generating at pixel-level
12:47:44 <lostgeek> don't know if there are libraries for that
12:48:06 <lostgeek> do we have a weather bot in this channel? need to know if its raining :D
12:48:17 <pgimeno> I'm hesitating whether to include Paintfuck in the 2D languages. I'd say it's not. Opinions?
12:48:25 <whtspc> any movie-format will do mpg, avi :)
12:49:08 <lostgeek> *stands up and opens the window*
12:49:39 <whtspc> the language itself isn't 2d
12:50:03 <whtspc> the language makes creating 2d only easier
12:50:07 <pgimeno> oklokok: do you have an userpage in the wiki?
12:50:49 <lostgeek> it's a language with a 2d data storage. the language itself isn't 2d
12:51:51 <pgimeno> whtspc: mind to give a real name?
12:52:38 <whtspc> but it's Wouter Visser
12:53:17 <lostgeek> GIFCanvas is a small Javatm package (9.6 KB uncompressed) to display Animated GIF89a images.
12:53:43 <lostgeek> now I need one to create them :)
13:15:36 <whtspc> pgimeno: nice, I still need to learn alot :) thanks
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13:25:57 <lostgeek> now I need one to create them :)
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13:53:09 <ehird> a disturbing amount of traffic here due to paintfuck :p
13:54:59 <pgimeno> wow, http://arxiv.org/abs/nlin/0306022v1
13:56:49 * ehird clicks. but if it's something amazing and on arxiv it's probably bullshit?
13:57:29 <ehird> that was proved in 2000
14:00:39 <ehird> http://www.project-euh.com/pong/?
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14:07:09 <SimonRC> ehird: that doesn't work :-(
14:07:21 <SimonRC> the objects don't actually move
14:07:38 <ehird> SimonRC: adjust your browse
14:07:44 <ehird> it's stopping scripts resize/move windows
14:07:50 <ehird> it'll be somewhere in your settings
14:12:37 <ehird> pgimeno: that langton...
14:12:56 <ehird> you know all paintfuck needs?
14:13:03 <ehird> , from brainfuck to get a key from the keyboard.
14:13:11 <ehird> pong, except playable
14:13:18 <ehird> where you're actually playing on the program's memory
14:14:13 <pgimeno> I'm just touched by His Noodly Appendage
14:14:29 <ehird> the fsm approves of langton's ant
14:14:34 <ehird> pgimeno: i don't see it tracking state
14:14:40 <ehird> is it in the actual "head"
14:14:42 <ehird> i.e. too quick to see it
14:14:59 <ehird> it actually runs fast.
14:15:16 <ehird> i wish it was a bti shorter though, it would seem like this should be "easy" in paintfuck
14:15:36 <pgimeno> the east check is consuming, I'm writing a fixed version
14:15:53 <pgimeno> but I have a requirement for this version that will make it longer
14:16:15 <pgimeno> that all 4 subcells of cells are filled, not just the NW subcell
14:16:28 <ehird> pgimeno: ah, are there spaces between them?
14:16:38 <ehird> if you're storing state in the head, surely you could make them just one cell
14:16:48 <ehird> because only the head needs state
14:17:39 <pgimeno> I need 4 cells for state for performance... maybe I can shorten it to 2...
14:18:07 <ehird> pgimeno: yes, but you only need state in the head
14:18:13 <ehird> the actual trail can be just one-cell, can't it?
14:18:30 <SimonRC> wait, is this langton's ant in PF?
14:18:34 <pgimeno> yes but where do you do calculations?
14:18:39 <ehird> SimonRC: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-langton.pfk
14:18:41 <ehird> pgimeno: at the head
14:18:50 <ehird> have a 4-cell head that walks around, and leaves a trail of one-squares
14:18:56 <pgimeno> ehird: and how do you do calculations without messing the state?
14:19:17 <ehird> pgimeno: leave a blank cell(s) in the head for calculation
14:19:25 <SimonRC> why does the state need to be on-grid?
14:19:27 <pgimeno> ehird: you're welcome to design such
14:19:28 <ehird> then one langton square = one square
14:19:31 <ehird> SimonRC: memory = grid
14:19:47 <ehird> SimonRC: depends on interp
14:19:49 <pgimeno> SimonRC: I didn't see any way to keep it in the program flux
14:19:58 <ehird> anything from 100x100 to 1000x1000 i guess
14:20:32 <ehird> it's an interesting thing because you have to design your prorgams so that they 'think' in their output
14:20:38 <ehird> effectively OCRing it each iteration
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14:26:08 <pgimeno> <SimonRC> how much state is there? <- if you mean in Langton's ant then it's just 2 bits of information
14:26:51 <pgimeno> namely the last move's direction
14:27:23 <ehird> pgimeno: i think that would work with a grid like this:
14:28:12 <ehird> yab x,y = last dir, z = pointer, a,b = calc space
14:28:25 <ehird> and one-square trail, i'd have to think about it :P
14:30:29 <pgimeno> I just could think of creating a blank row or column at the head's position for extra storage and calculation and scroll the rest as the head is moved, but that would take forever
14:30:51 <ehird> it already takes forever
14:48:00 <SimonRC> If TDWTF goes downhill noticeably in the future, we could pick this article as the Shark-Jumping moment: http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/nice_num,-mean_programmer.aspx
14:48:35 <SimonRC> a nicely-written C function gets a whole front-page article to itself
14:49:10 <SimonRC> it formats numbers by "using goofy modulus math".
14:49:41 <ehird> SimonRC: hey, you copied a reddit headline
14:50:00 <ehird> also, the daily wtf jumped the shark like years ago
14:50:17 <ehird> SimonRC: reddit had a story a few adys ago about it basically saying the same thing
14:50:35 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7g8qf/nice_code_stupid_submitter_in_which_thedailywtf/
14:50:55 <ehird> reddit is pretty old.
14:51:04 <ehird> early 2005 sorta thing.
14:51:41 * ehird reminisces of the days before lolcats game, when the front page looked approximately like "Lisp calvin and hobbes haskell"
14:52:05 * ehird would reminisce of the days when it was written in lisp [they moved to python] but wasn't around for that.
14:57:25 <SimonRC> and 2005 is, like, late medieval in computer years
14:57:56 <SimonRC> hmm, that sounds a bit off actually
14:58:20 <ehird> i think reddit appeared just before the web two point ohhhh boom
14:58:59 <olsner> it's funny that the dailywtf article mentions all that is sensible with the function, while missing the actual bugs, like what happens to LONG_MIN and what happens if long happens to be 64-bit
14:59:51 <olsner> or maybe they've just successfully trolled a *lot* of people without them noticing
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15:01:36 <ehird> the guy who does the code snippets these days seems to know ruby and java and naught else
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15:11:01 <pgimeno> ok, this is how it SHOULD have been done (three at a time): http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/nice_num.txt
15:11:29 <pgimeno> That *would* be a WTF candidate.
15:11:46 <ehird> DISCLAIMER: JOKE JOKE JOKE JOKE JOKE
15:11:56 <ehird> pgimeno: beautiful!
15:13:04 <pgimeno> that of assigning an external buffer is lame, when you can return the local buffer :P
15:14:16 <pgimeno> the for condition should be n > buf + 1
15:14:45 <olsner> hey, that buffer is stack-allocated! surely that doesn't work :P
15:14:48 <ehird> pgimeno: i think it's entirely a bug :P
15:16:10 <pgimeno> olsner: I don't pretend it to work, I was joking :P
15:16:30 * SimonRC seems to recall one of the Schildt books recommending returning a pointer to a local array at one point, because it was likely to be ok in that situation.
15:17:04 <SimonRC> pgimeno: yeah, well he's Schildt
15:17:43 <ehird> [[In addition to his work as a computer scientist, Schildt is the original multi-keyboardist for the progressive rock band Starcastle, appearing on all of the group's albums, most of which were produced from 1976-1978]]
15:18:52 <SimonRC> olsner: yeah, as long as you use it immediately after the function returns it probabl woon't have been overwritten, is the reasoning I think
15:28:54 <ehird> http://music.sympatico.msn.ca/newsandfeatures/contentposting_ontherecord?newsitemid=1fa0a490-9979-4671-be6a-652113d8724d&feedname=MusicNewsBlog&show=False&number=0&showbyline=True&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc&date=False
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15:30:17 <ehird> your interp is fast.
15:30:34 <ehird> and java too but oh well
15:30:57 <ehird> couldn't flip() be:
15:31:09 <ehird> grid[gridPointer[0]][gridPointer[1]] = ~grid[gridPointer[0]][gridPointer[1]];
15:31:15 <ehird> and ... not be in a method?
15:31:19 <ehird> it'd be faster, probably?
15:31:38 <lostgeek> don't think that it's much faster and flip() is better to read
15:31:45 <ehird> this is a perfect oppertunity for me to make a lightning fast interp
15:31:58 <ehird> using the HI TECH display mechanism of "VT-100"
15:32:04 <lostgeek> and I'm planning a >2-ary version of brainfuck :)
15:33:21 <ehird> lostgeek: suggestion - add a textbox like the other interps
15:33:26 <ehird> it just kind of "fits" with the lang
15:33:36 * ehird 's interp won't have one due to lazy, but yours uses a proper gui lib and stuff so
15:34:01 <lostgeek> I never saw the other interpreter
15:34:19 <ehird> or pain.exe or whatever
15:34:28 <ehird> grid[gridPointer[0]][gridPointer[1]]
15:34:31 <ehird> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck.php
15:34:40 <ehird> lostgeek: i'm on a mac too
15:34:44 <ehird> that's why i used the .swf
15:34:53 <ehird> http://willhostforfood.com/access.php?fileid=43044
15:35:04 <ehird> and the pgimeno one is in JS
15:35:26 <lostgeek> yeah. next version will have something like that
15:35:57 <lostgeek> but I _hate_ swing so maybe it'll take a while ;)
15:36:28 <ehird> why are you even using java :-P
15:36:45 <lostgeek> java is cool and multiplatform
15:36:56 <ehird> there are plenty of cool & multiplatform languages
15:37:02 <ehird> like...every scripting one. :-P
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15:52:52 * ehird is writing an interp in c
15:53:07 <whtspc> Lostgeek: I find the difference in animation speed between 0 and 1 kinda big, but I'm not allowed to use broken numbers? 0.5?
15:53:22 <lostgeek> yeah I know... thats a problem
15:54:17 <whtspc> If you know then it's ok, just some constructive criticism :)
15:54:17 <lostgeek> 0 is rushing as fast as possible. 1 ist waiting 1 ms between every command
15:54:37 <lostgeek> yeah. but the problem is, that I don't know how to "fix" it
15:55:27 <ehird> lostgeek: can't, really
15:55:33 <ehird> 1ms sleep is not 1ms sleep
15:55:36 <ehird> unless you're on a RTOS...
15:55:51 <ehird> you're sleeping like, 10x that, minimum i'd guess :-P
15:56:42 <pgimeno> ehird: non-RT OSes should be able to wait the specified # of ms in average
15:57:02 <ehird> pgimeno: to 1ms precision?
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15:57:23 <pgimeno> like: wait either 0 or <minimum> ms
15:59:58 <pgimeno> my pf interpreter runs 7.5 instructions per iteration in average
16:00:22 <pgimeno> (in? on? my english sucks as these)
16:02:28 <whtspc> btw there's again a new interpreter: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=3710.msg112462#msg112462
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16:03:49 <pgimeno> I was thinking about making one in Lazarus but I was Laz-y
16:05:55 <pgimeno> I don't feel like learning SDL just for writing an interpreter, or is there any other graphics library that makes it simple to write graphic apps?
16:06:05 <ehird> think i've written my interp
16:06:13 <ehird> 116 lines of c hopefully
16:07:00 * pgimeno ponders writing a curses version
16:07:14 <ehird> just the vt-100 cursor codes
16:07:49 <pgimeno> lostgeek: sorry, "in C" was implied :)
16:09:00 <lostgeek> It's funny how you can keep a bunch of ner^W geeks busy ;)
16:10:27 <SimonRC> the irssi windowing system is insane
16:10:38 <pgimeno> I missed this in an esolang recently, everything was too serious and intrincated just for the sake of being serious and intrincated
16:11:18 <pgimeno> no humour, no niceness features
16:14:08 <pgimeno> GregorR: mind if I move "Schrodilang" to "Schrdilang" and add a redirection in the former, or is that the proper name?
16:14:33 <whtspc> I'll write a wii-interpreter
16:15:21 <whtspc> flash is the only language I know well
16:16:35 <SimonRC> are there any incremental C compilers?
16:17:01 <SimonRC> you can write an test a program bit by bit like at a python prompt?
16:17:54 <ehird> what was the whiteout again:
16:18:03 <ehird> SimonRC: there's a c repl
16:21:17 <whtspc> ehird: yes, but it seems to end up in infinite loop somehow
16:21:29 <ehird> whtspc: how is that surprising?
16:22:08 <whtspc> ok it's not surprising, but it makes the piece of code useless
16:23:54 <ehird> pgimeno: whiteout.
16:23:56 <ehird> only our interp does white=bg
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16:29:04 <SimonRC> hmm, there is no ability to define functions in that
16:30:26 <ehird> it's a brainfuck derivative
16:31:11 <SimonRC> actually, I might be worng there...
16:34:25 <SimonRC> but that type of thing isn't what I was thinking of as an "incremental C compiler"
16:34:45 <SimonRC> I was thinking something like a traditional Forth
16:34:52 <ehird> c isn't conductive to that.
16:36:16 <SimonRC> correction: because I could, if I could be bothered
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17:09:54 <Slereah> it's Brittany here. We only get rain.
17:09:56 <jayCampbell> question, in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Weave, should <> move each thread's pointer on both the thread's and master's tape, or just one depending on '~' ?
17:10:14 <jayCampbell> the latter seems more useful, but the former is probably what was meant i think
17:18:29 <ehird> Um, *[e*]* should halt in paintfuck, right?
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17:21:01 <lostgeek> is there a version of langtons ant withhout the comments?
17:22:37 <ehird> just strip the comments
17:23:34 <lostgeek> i made an code window with highlighting of the current command
17:24:42 <lostgeek> and at a speed of 20 it takes like 5 seconds to scroll through the comments
17:26:04 <ehird> lostgeek: parse the program before executing it.
17:26:10 <pgimeno> GregorR: mind if I move "Schrodilang" to "Schrdilang" and add a redirection in the former, or is that the proper name?
17:26:17 <ehird> as a bonus loops are faster
17:26:43 <GregorR> pgimeno: My records indicate that there was no umlaut on that 'o' :P
17:26:53 <lostgeek> ehird: but I wanted to make the code changable on the fly
17:27:13 <pgimeno> lostgeek: look in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Paintfuck
17:39:06 <lostgeek> try this: http://files.lostgeek.de/Geekness/PaintFuck/Release/PaintFuck-0.2a.tar.gz
17:39:20 <lostgeek> my code window is mostly done :)
17:39:43 <decipher> can we edit the wiki to add more links for paintfuck interpreters?
17:40:55 <lostgeek> I think we should make an own section. There _surely_ will be more interpreters
17:41:31 <decipher> yeah i agree, i have coded 2 interpreters, one in C++ and the other one in obfuscated C
17:41:59 <lostgeek> we should code a brainfuck interpreter for paintfuck!
17:42:15 <ehird> but convertable via a program
17:42:22 <ehird> being that it's essentially brainfuck -> smallfuck
17:42:57 <decipher> ehird: i guess he meant an interpreter written in brainfuck for paintfuck
17:43:17 <ehird> well you could do that, armed with the vt-100 cursor codes.
17:43:32 <ehird> it'd probably be more tedious than hard
17:43:32 <decipher> :) that would be something cool to try
17:43:37 <ehird> jayCampbell: naw, my interp uses the vt-100 terminal codes
17:43:51 <ehird> use a small font :P
17:44:15 <jayCampbell> i wish i could remember where to find that CPU written in Life gliders
17:45:22 <jayCampbell> threaded brainfuck, do its tapes move together
17:48:12 <MizardX> Well... It is unspecified, so either way is ok. Personally I'd go with that each thread has two pointers each; on for the local tape, and one for the global tape.
17:50:59 <lostgeek> what about threaded paintfuck with two pointers
17:51:31 <ehird> wn*[[[n*]*s*s[w*]*e*e[s*]*n*n[e*]*w*w] <-- who wants to make my spiral not mess up when it reaches the center
17:56:27 <ehird> jayCampbell: it's a square spiral.
17:56:49 <ehird> *[[n]*[*e]*[s*]*[*w]*] i wish i knew what this was doing
17:58:17 <MizardX> ehird: wn*[[n*]*s*s[w*]*e*e[s*]*n*n[e*]*w*wn*]* fixed
17:59:03 <oklokok> pgimeno: i don't know whether i have a usepage. i'm a bit afraid of wikis
17:59:11 <ehird> MizardX: you win 50 internets!
18:00:25 <jayCampbell> <ehird> *[[n]*[*e]*[s*]*[*w]*] i wish i knew what this was doing
18:00:32 <ehird> it looked interesting
18:02:35 <jayCampbell> because it runs in circles it mimicks something like a 2,2 cellular rule
18:02:54 <pgimeno> oklokok: ok, I've leave just your nick in the Paintfuck page
18:03:32 <ehird> pgimeno: his main nick is oklopol
18:04:51 <jayCampbell> i could see using something like that critter as a second stage, after setting up a board for it to run around
18:05:23 <ehird> it doesn't do that for me
18:05:27 <ehird> try it on the official interp
18:05:37 <ehird> *[[[n*w]n*[s*e]e*]*]
18:05:42 <ehird> looks like a cellular automata
18:05:59 <oklokok> ehird: if you make a reasonably fast paintfuck interp, i can make a pong.
18:06:07 <ehird> oklokok: use the exe one
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18:07:06 <jayCampbell> that stream of bits when it settles into a repeat pattern is interesting
18:07:07 <lostgeek> oklokok: if you make a multithreaded interpreter, with keyboard input...
18:07:26 <ehird> i.e. two ais playing pong against each other
18:07:46 <oklokok> pgimeno: put my nick there as "oklopol"
18:07:50 <oklokok> that's my most official one.
18:07:51 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol.
18:08:05 <oklopol> ehird told you. not really a surprise but anyway
18:08:30 <oklopol> lostgeek: why multithreaded?
18:09:01 <oklopol> well i was thinking player + ai, but whatever
18:09:16 <oerjan> <jayCampbell> i might be able to simulate Very Large Numbers with branching and pool resets
18:09:25 <oerjan> you'd need an infinite program
18:09:29 <ehird> oklopol: it has no input
18:10:08 <lostgeek> well I haven't had the chance to actually program something bigger in paintfuck yet...
18:10:12 <lostgeek> I was only writing the interpreter
18:10:21 <lostgeek> so I don't really know what you would have to do for that
18:11:20 <jayCampbell> this one shows how to build the spaceship from Contact *[[[n*w]n*[s*e]e*]*]
18:11:41 <oklopol> ehird: i guess i could have it take the seed from the first line.
18:11:56 <ehird> oklopol: just make it play a predictable game
18:11:57 <oklopol> but really it'd be just stupid to make one for an interp that slow
18:12:04 <ehird> it's not very slow
18:12:24 <ehird> oklopol: if it's too slow use http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck.php or the java one or the c one
18:12:44 <oklopol> well, i guess it's the perfect speed for actually seeing the logic that moves that paddles + ball
18:12:49 <oerjan> <Slereah_> Are you seeking to purchase some weed?
18:13:03 <ehird> oklopol: just keep the ai simple enough :P
18:13:05 <oerjan> i wish i could say that was out of the ordinary here
18:13:08 <Slereah> oerjan, do you spend all day reading the logs?
18:13:25 <Slereah> Also do you want some weed
18:13:40 <ehird> *[[[n*w]n*[s*w]se*]*]
18:16:37 <oerjan> <pgimeno> is the announcement time in the wiki in CET?
18:16:54 <oerjan> you can set your timezone in the preferences.
18:17:10 <ehird> its part of the page source
18:17:15 <ehird> Original Paintfuck announcement (2008-11-22 14:28:50 UTC)
18:17:51 <oerjan> although i've occasionally find that annoying when i want to add an unsigned template
18:17:58 <oerjan> since i have to convert manually
18:19:15 * oerjan flaps his ears to fly, then drops a rock on ehird
18:26:17 <ehird> can it e shorter? :D
18:26:50 <pgimeno> oerjan: that was not the issue, sorry, I meant the time that whtspc mentioned as the creation time for the Paintfuck article
18:27:11 <pgimeno> *for Paintfuck in the article
18:28:10 <pgimeno> *announcement time (sorry, too much langton lately)
18:31:14 <ehird> oklopol: how goes the pong
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18:36:48 <lostgeek> mh. I somehow managed to crash my book
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18:58:24 <oklopol> ehird: did i say i was going to do it now?
18:58:47 <ehird> oklopol: it was implied
18:58:55 <ehird> oklopol: but srsly do it <.<
19:33:00 <ehird> *[[*e]*[*n]*[*w]*[s*]*]
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19:44:23 <oklopol> buttt i have others to do!
19:45:37 * oerjan decides not to make a butt joke anyhow.
19:47:04 <ehird> it will be awesome
19:47:42 <ehird> oklopol: as a bonus you don't have to handle losses
19:47:47 <ehird> when the ball goes through one end
19:47:51 <ehird> it automatically starts again from the other
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20:05:40 <lostgeek> I think my interp is reaching the point where I need to rethink the code and comment :)
20:05:54 <oerjan> ehird: we don't all have a letter all to ourself, you know
20:06:13 <ehird> two-charactetr prefixes should be unique!!!
20:06:53 <lostgeek> so I need to change my nick to lastgeek? *g*
20:07:05 <ehird> lostgeek: change it to zy3jkanfka
20:07:06 <oerjan> lostgeek: won't help for long
20:07:08 <ehird> that's pretty uniqu
20:07:17 <oerjan> where is lament anyway.
20:08:16 <oerjan> lostgeek: you could try lustgeek though
20:08:46 <lostgeek> anyway.. has someone made a 99 bottles of beer in paintfuck yet? :)
20:09:09 <ehird> i'm gonna write a counter
20:09:10 <oerjan> there seems to be that slight lack of ascii output...
20:09:17 <ehird> oerjan: draw the text
20:09:22 <olsner> you should build it as a program that paints 99 beer bottles, then unpaints them one after one
20:09:34 <olsner> while scrolling the lyrics :P
20:10:51 <oerjan> i guess it's only a matter of determination
20:11:36 <lostgeek> i think with procedures it would be much easier
20:11:59 <ehird> keep the minimalist aesthetic and orthogonality
20:12:04 <ehird> *[[s*en]s*nw[w]es]
20:12:25 <oerjan> drawing a fixed letter is trivial, just tedious
20:12:28 <ehird> basically copy, add one, then reset back to position 0
20:13:51 <oerjan> hm doing the arithmetic directly on the drawn digits would be sorta cool
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20:14:30 <oerjan> oh i know! a program that does manual arithmetic :D
20:17:57 <ehird> is that even possible?
20:18:10 <decipher> a scroller is possible and has been done
20:18:14 <ehird> i.e. it copies every square above it one down, then moves itself one down, then repeats
20:18:16 <ehird> no matter what is above
20:18:32 <ehird> then, it can scroll forever
20:19:51 <decipher> *s*s*s*s*e*e*n*n*sse*e*n*n*n*n*ee
20:19:51 <decipher> *s*s*s*s*nne*e*e*enn*s*s*s*s*ee
20:19:51 <decipher> [n*n*n*n*e*e*e*e*ssw*w*w*ss*e*e*e*ee]
20:20:09 <ehird> pastie.org in future plz :p
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20:21:00 <ehird> decipher: i swa that, but
20:21:07 <ehird> can it handle arbitrary stuff?
20:21:23 <ehird> can it be done vertically? that is, it copies everything above a line downwards
20:22:03 <lostgeek> if you copy the code from the slider for the scale (1-10 px per field)
20:22:10 <lostgeek> and use it for the speed (0-5000)
20:22:14 <lostgeek> and forget to change the variables
20:22:31 <lostgeek> with 1500 px x 1500px per field
20:22:45 <lostgeek> so you get a window of 300000 x 300000 px
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20:30:01 <pgimeno> Non-commented version of Langton's Ant with 2x2 NOT-HOLLOW cells: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck-langton-nothollow.pfk
20:30:36 <pgimeno> that one is slower because it has to do many copy and reset operations
20:30:55 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-langton-nothollow.pfk
20:31:58 <ehird> pgimeno: can you add an option to yur interp to start at 0,0
20:32:36 <ehird> my copier does work
20:33:04 <ehird> but it copies anything at all right
20:33:08 <ehird> with no special confi
20:34:25 <ehird> decipher: lostgeek: pgimeno: http://pastie.org/327245 my generic copier
20:34:37 <ehird> see the comments for instructions :-P
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20:52:13 <ehird> nobody wants to try my copier? :P
20:53:18 <ehird> just [[*n*]w[w]*se*[*s*]w[w]*ne*], with the precondition that it's at the one-up-from-bottommost leftmost cell, there is a white line running all across the top and bottom, and the drawing is in the middle
20:53:30 <lostgeek> sorry. need to add comments to my program...
20:53:42 <lostgeek> got 521 lines of code... and 4 lines of comment
20:53:42 <Sgeo> What language is this/
20:54:18 <ehird> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
20:54:22 <ehird> i'm not sure my copier works for multiple lines
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20:56:37 <ehird> i'm not sure if it's working slowly or breaking on multiple lines, haha
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21:24:23 <pgimeno> new improved version of my interpreter
21:26:49 <comex> http://www.dyalog.com/dfnsdws/n_kt.htm
21:26:54 <comex> I can't believe that isn't an esolang
21:26:56 <pgimeno> and origin option (per ehird's request))
21:29:46 <ehird> write game of life in it
21:30:29 <pgimeno> ehird: again, not possible without extra storage e.g. 2x2
21:30:35 <ehird> pgimeno: yeah and? :D
21:31:25 <ehird> pgimeno: here's how i imagine it working:
21:31:37 <ehird> since you have to traverse the WHOLE grid, have a checkerboard separated by a lot
21:31:41 <ehird> so that you can always walk the whole gri
21:31:51 <ehird> then, each actual square is 2x2 or so so that it stands out from the checkerboard
21:32:05 <ehird> and the head has to track the four neighbours and probably a few more stuff to carry around
21:32:08 <ehird> so I guess 4x4 or so
21:32:17 <ehird> so the gaps in the checkerboard have to fit a 4x4 head
21:34:24 <pgimeno> in my view, 2x2 is enought
21:35:03 <pgimeno> von Neumann machine would probably be far easier
21:35:44 <ehird> pgimeno: 2x2 head?
21:35:56 <ehird> you have to track the on/off state of -4 neighbouring cells- to calculate one cell
21:36:13 <ehird> pgimeno: and you still need a space for calculation, and an always-on head
21:36:20 <ehird> how do you propose to do that
21:37:00 <pgimeno> ehird: that's not a problem in my view, e.g. in Langton I use two cells for computation, not just one
21:37:05 <pgimeno> you can use as many as you need
21:37:34 <pgimeno> as long as you remember your actual head's position, that is
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21:37:58 <pgimeno> but still, life is too complicated (which is true in two senses)
21:38:18 <ehird> game of life is pretty trivial tbh
21:38:27 <ehird> just... not quite so in paintfuck
21:38:29 <ehird> it shouldn't be much harder than langton
21:38:36 <ehird> langton is 2 bits to store direction
21:38:43 <ehird> gol is 4 bits for neighbours
21:39:07 <pgimeno> in life you need to check each of 8 neighbours and count them, counting is not so easy in pf
21:39:33 <oklopol> that's just how you might implement it in a normal language.
21:40:08 <ehird> you could probably do like 2 bits
21:40:14 <ehird> and flip them to patterns for alive/dead on each hit
21:40:46 <oklopol> you can just have two cells per gol cell and do all the computation elsewhere on the board.
21:41:18 <oklopol> and even if you want to do everything in-place, 4 is enough
21:41:23 <ehird> do the calculation in the head
21:42:09 <oklopol> pgimeno: dunno if i have the time
21:42:15 <ehird> oklopol: you're never busy
21:42:19 <ehird> of course you have the time
21:42:30 <oklopol> anyway i'm pretty sure you can do it with just two cells per gol cell, without using any additional external memory.
21:42:31 <ehird> you just don't want to
21:42:56 <oklopol> i think the code size will get exponential then
21:43:34 <ehird> oklopol: you have to track the state of 8 things
21:43:38 <oklopol> why not just use the whole array for gol
21:43:57 <oklopol> those are on the map already
21:44:23 <ehird> you need to carry the 8 bits
21:44:27 <ehird> so you can count the number
21:44:28 <ehird> to calculat the new state
21:44:44 <oklopol> i can do it without calculating anything.
21:45:06 <oklopol> i can just do like i did in my 50000 line tode solution and explicitly list all the cases :)
21:45:31 <oklopol> basically using program state as the counter
21:45:49 <oklopol> it's not actually that much slower, assuming the code is parsed
21:46:07 <oklopol> well, probably the fastest way to do it
21:46:27 <ehird> oklopol: that's kind of cheating
21:46:27 <oklopol> but, i still need to solve the problem of changing the board on the fly.
21:46:44 <ehird> paintfuck can do it without that
21:46:50 <ehird> so i think it should be done "properly"
21:47:38 <oklopol> anyway size 4 cells are probably nicer if only for esthetics.
21:49:06 <oklopol> hmm... wonder how proper proper should be
21:49:21 <oklopol> maybe i should see what you can do with 4.
21:49:49 <oklopol> can someone link the swf or the exor
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21:50:43 <ehird> oklopol: willhostforfood.com/files3/7766096/pain.rar
21:50:51 <oklopol> i assumed i'd never touch it again so i removed it
21:51:00 <oklopol> but you peckers keep talking about it, so that's hardly possible
21:51:04 <oerjan> oklopol: for changing the board on the fly, use an extra line that moves and keeps a copy of the old state of one other line
21:51:37 <oklopol> oerjan: yes something like that might work.
21:51:39 <ehird> oklopol: paintfuck is pretty interesting you gotta admit
21:51:43 <ehird> compareed to some other new langs
21:52:03 <oklopol> it's okay. noprob would be more interesting if i managed to finish it
21:52:29 <pgimeno> Fredkin was the name, I didn't remember it O:) Fredkin should be easy to write in pf.
21:52:37 <oklopol> now i'm thinking removing probabilities and somehow trying to make linked lists out of variable dependencies... :)
21:53:10 <oklopol> ehird: what other new langs btw?
21:53:21 <ehird> oklopol: Esme!!ESMEESMESME!!!11
21:53:45 <oklopol> i don't remember what esme is, just that it was somehow stupid
21:53:58 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme
21:55:06 <ehird> oklopol: i added that
21:55:13 <ehird> and the citation needed
21:55:33 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hashes
21:55:38 <ehird> A new lang of his (Slereah )
21:55:45 <oklopol> so i prolly don't know what that is because it doesn't say on the wiki.
21:55:57 <ehird> oklopol: that is all the description we have
21:55:58 * oerjan thought he added citation needed. or maybe that was for another language.
21:56:53 <ehird> i added it, you changed it
21:57:05 <oerjan> oh i just included the template
21:57:28 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esme&diff=next&oldid=12506
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21:59:33 <pgimeno> [ot] http://finitenature.com/interference/plugin/index.html <- nice java applet
22:00:13 <ehird> pgimeno: nothing is offtopic in #esoteric
22:01:57 <oerjan> hm trying to track that VeeBeeWiki mention leads to a nonexisting web page or something
22:03:30 <ehird> pgimeno: why wrong? :P
22:03:33 <ehird> oerjan: he made it up
22:05:57 <oerjan> http://wikiscrolls.org/
22:06:36 <ehird> veebeewiki = Visual Basic wiki
22:06:38 <oerjan> might be just a name collision :/
22:06:46 <ehird> most likely name collision
22:07:33 <ehird> not in web archive
22:08:03 <ehird> Wikiscrolls was merged with the Elderscrolls Wikia in March 2008
22:08:13 -!- Corun_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:08:35 <pgimeno> ehird: too many offtopics can make people abandon the chan, preferably the snr should be kept high
22:08:48 <oerjan> hm wait the Mad God actually mentions it elsewhere: http://www.frheritage.org.uk/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?id=User_talk:Dagoth_Ur%2C_Mad_God&revision=23
22:09:30 <ehird> pgimeno: way past that stage
22:09:34 <oklopol> pgimeno: there are quite a lot of regulars here.
22:09:45 <ehird> most everyone here is a regular
22:09:50 <ehird> and the topics swerve wildly
22:10:04 <oklopol> but yeah everyone likes ontopic stuff, ofc
22:10:28 <oerjan> oklopol: not me! those esolangs are too damn hard.
22:10:53 <oerjan> i come here only for the sex talk.
22:11:06 <ehird> oerjan: on that site... jesus christ
22:11:12 <Asztal> I come here because I'm lonely ;_;
22:11:16 <ehird> he comes to someone else's wiki, shits over it, and asks for adminship to shit over it more
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22:22:54 <oerjan> ah he was banned from Elderscrolls
22:23:49 <ehird> somehow i am unsurprised
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22:31:01 <ehird> pgimeno: darn, i have a faster copier but it mangles the ceiling and floor
22:31:06 <ehird> and i'm not sure how to make it detect it
22:31:11 <ehird> to go onto the next line
22:38:20 <jayCampbell> i had to put a bunch of NOPs in hello.b to make it overlap
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22:39:48 <jayCampbell> so yeah, weave has a shared tape plus a tape per thread
22:40:55 <jayCampbell> i think it's more functional than brainfork, and it was unimplemente
22:44:31 <ehird> i golfed my checkerboarder:
22:50:21 <ehird> really short chequerboard
22:50:34 <Asztal> Have you considered using <canvas> for this javascript one?
22:52:27 <ehird> Asztal: oh good idea
22:52:38 <ehird> jayCampbell: but that's exactly the same :P
22:53:06 <ehird> jayCampbell: no i knew
22:53:58 <ehird> pgimeno: <canvas> google it :P
22:54:05 <Asztal> pgimeno: well, I was thinking that it would save you having a 64x64 <table>. Surely that can't be great for performance :)
22:54:16 <ehird> yeah it also sucks for larger sizes
22:54:28 <ehird> jayCampbell: that is also the same.
22:55:03 <Asztal> also (in Firefox, at least) you can copy the image to the clipboard as a data:url, which would be cool :D
22:55:23 <pgimeno> Asztal: I'm sure, I just haven't heard of canvas before
22:55:36 <ehird> pgimeno: gooooooogle
22:55:45 <ehird> pgimeno: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Canvas_tutorial
22:55:51 <ehird> & https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Drawing_Graphics_with_Canvas
22:56:02 <ehird> its non-standard but supported by just about everything that isn't IE
22:56:14 <ehird> Most of this content (but not the documentation on drawWindow) has been rolled into the more expansive Canvas tutorial, this page should probably be redirected there as it's now redundant.
22:56:17 <ehird> disregard the second link
22:57:02 <ehird> pgimeno: mozilla + opera + safari
22:57:08 <ehird> and it's in the upcoming HTML5 spec
22:57:16 <ehird> so, um, as cross-platform as it matters
22:57:24 <ehird> only the insane people here (like oklopol and oerjan) use IE :P
22:57:27 <ehird> jayCampbell: occasionally
22:58:06 <ehird> he only comes every now and then
22:58:32 <jayCampbell> like can we ditch the '!' separator since there's already ';' and '!' means bf-input these days
22:58:44 <oerjan> busy expanding his cake religion, i assume
23:00:32 <oklopol> because firefox is now the default
23:01:43 <oklopol> i'm almost thinking i should've debugged the gol during coding... :P
23:01:56 <oklopol> and i'm pretty sure there are about 30 errors :P
23:02:22 <Asztal> there's a firefox addon for doing 3D stuff with <canvas> and openGL... so I made fractals with it. Maybe I should have made a piet interpreter on the GPU.
23:02:38 <ehird> oklopol: does it look pretty?
23:02:42 <ehird> i.e. can you make out the grid
23:03:07 <oklopol> it stores current and previous row now.
23:03:14 <oklopol> so it could be prettier i guess.
23:03:50 <oklopol> mind you i don't know what it looks like, i haven't run it once :D
23:03:55 <ehird> you can still see the whole grid
23:04:14 <ehird> oklopol: the GoL 2d grid
23:04:19 <ehird> you can still see all of it right
23:04:28 <oklopol> wellllllll, the grid is made of 2x2 squares
23:04:42 <ehird> is the noise from the processing enough to make it hard to see?
23:04:48 <oklopol> and the top right is the current val, bottom left is the last one
23:05:04 <oklopol> i don't know :) but there's only noise at the current spot.
23:05:33 <ehird> oklopol: how long until it works :P
23:06:03 <oklopol> i've currently counter the neighbors
23:06:48 <oklopol> now i just need to store the negations of the counter's contents, and do a few if's
23:07:43 <oklopol> this is all pretty trivial really, it's just, well, it either works or not, i don't have a step-by-stepper :)
23:07:57 <oklopol> (i know one exists, but that's only a last resort)
23:08:00 <ehird> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck.php
23:16:03 <pgimeno> that canvas thing looks promising, I guess that the getElementById thing is quite time consuming in this program
23:18:10 <Asztal> if you don't use canvas, you should at least cache the getElementById calls.
23:19:52 <jayCampbell> hm, with a couple lines i could put brainfork's forker into weaver
23:32:58 <oklopol> there weren't 30 errors, there were 3
23:33:16 <oklopol> unless you count the one that was in all the copypaste.... then it was more like 20 :D
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23:44:49 <ehird> how goes the game of lief
23:44:54 <ehird> is it ready for release
23:47:31 <oklopol> which is kinda stupid concerning how long i've been on it
23:47:57 <ehird> oklopol: then will you do pong
23:48:08 <oklopol> can't promise you can see the actual evolution from this... but that's probably not that important...... :D
23:48:21 <ehird> oklopol: can you watch a glider?
23:48:23 <oklopol> the problem is the last round's valuez
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23:59:55 <ehird> oklopol: IS IT DONE