←2008-11 2008-12 2009-01→ ↑2008 ↑all
2008-12-01
00:00:51 <oklopol> well, now it at least works on the empty screen.
00:00:55 <oklopol> now let's try a glider....
00:01:19 <oklopol> well there's a glider, but it takes ages to reach it, not the fastest impl there it :)
00:01:36 <oklopol> it's quite visually pleasing imo
00:01:42 <ehird> happy december
00:01:53 <ehird> oklopol: use http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck.php it has fat animation
00:01:53 <ehird> set ms = 0
00:01:54 <oklopol> old news
00:01:56 <ehird> and origin top left
00:02:23 <ehird> oklopol: failing that ill try it in the java interp
00:05:40 <oklopol> flumrgh, it didn't wurk :)
00:06:01 <ehird> oklopol: :{ y not
00:06:18 <oklopol> because i suck
00:06:25 <ehird> tru
00:12:12 <pgimeno> HUGE performance improvement: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-canvas.php
00:12:32 <pgimeno> Asztal: thanks :)
00:13:44 <ehird> woo
00:13:52 <ehird> oh jesus lord
00:13:55 <ehird> that is INSANELY FAST
00:13:58 <ehird> for ms=0
00:14:01 <ehird> pgimeno: you are a god
00:14:29 <ehird> pgimeno: my god, blink and its finished execution
00:14:29 <pgimeno> well, the merit is yours and Asztal's :)
00:14:36 <ehird> but seriously
00:14:37 <ehird> that is insane
00:14:50 <pgimeno> it does 200 steps per animation frame
00:15:01 <ehird> oh
00:15:01 <ehird> pgimeno: well
00:15:06 <ehird> the problem with that is that you miss out on the juicy bits
00:15:10 <ehird> maybe make that configuratble?
00:15:13 <ehird> should just be a few lines
00:15:23 <pgimeno> I was thinking of that, but wanted to show you :)
00:15:30 <ehird> :)
00:16:04 <pgimeno> Langton's ant now takes just a few seconds to escape at 128x128
00:16:49 <ehird> pgimeno: also, you should default to black = background
00:16:49 <ehird> :P
00:16:52 <ehird> like everyone else
00:17:49 <ehird> oklopol:
00:17:52 <ehird> try your gol on this!!
00:17:53 <ehird> really fast
00:18:11 <oklopol> if it works now
00:18:38 <ehird> oklopol: set dimensions = 1000,1000, origin=topleft, animation step=0, put it in and animate
00:18:41 <ehird> = best interp yet
00:18:54 <pgimeno> ehird: the web is white! :P
00:19:08 <ehird> pgimeno: so is the flash interp, but the GRID is black background
00:19:08 <ehird> :P
00:19:12 <ehird> and everyone says white/black
00:19:14 <oklopol> okay i think it works now
00:19:15 <ehird> so it's just confusing
00:19:35 <oklopol> but i can't test a glider in the exe
00:20:02 <ehird> pgimeno: haha, try whee!
00:20:05 <ehird> its still slow
00:20:10 <ehird> (http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=3710.msg110154#msg110154)
00:21:19 <ehird> pgimeno: the main problem with your 200-per is that t he display is jerky
00:21:19 <ehird> and
00:21:27 <ehird> you can't see the head if it's a bouncing-ball type thing
00:21:33 <ehird> so i think that configurable that would be good
00:24:33 <ehird> pgimeno: heh, your interp is quite unusable now: you can't see programs running
00:24:35 <ehird> since it's so fast
00:24:41 <ehird> needs some of that configuring ;)
00:24:44 <jayCampbell> JJusutst a anonotthheerr brbraiainnffuucckk hahcackkeerr
00:24:50 <jayCampbell> weave does brainfork
00:24:50 <ehird> lol
00:26:52 <pgimeno> okay, reload
00:27:24 <oklopol> okay it may work now.
00:27:30 <ehird> yay
00:27:33 <oklopol> i have no idea because it shows two generations :)
00:27:45 <oklopol> i made a glider, and it's not dying, not sure if it's working though.
00:27:52 <ehird> pgimeno: does it totally redraw each time?
00:27:57 <ehird> if so that's silly just redraw what needs redrawing
00:28:01 <ehird> oklopol: using pgimeno's?
00:28:08 <oklopol> yeah the php
00:28:34 <pgimeno> ehird: well, that's on the browser, it draws on every pixel change
00:28:43 <ehird> oklopol: set ms = 0, iterations = 500
00:28:45 <ehird> and animate
00:28:48 <ehird> should go really fast
00:29:42 <pgimeno> oklopol: this one: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-canvas.php
00:29:51 <pgimeno> the -canvas one
00:29:57 <ehird> *[[en*w]*s[nw*s]*e[ws*e]*n[se*n]*w] <- someone on the forums posted this. BOXWORLD!
00:32:42 <oklopol> hmm... it might be working, but it's definitely not pretty.
00:32:51 <ehird> oklopol: :{
00:32:54 <ehird> pastie.org the code
00:32:55 <oklopol> should've done it like oerjan suggested
00:33:29 <oklopol> i can http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p244563523.txt the code, don't know about pastieing
00:33:31 <oklopol> *pastying
00:34:15 <oklopol> the problem is showing two iterations at once, it simply doesn't look good.
00:34:24 <oklopol> and makes it quite hard to tell whether that's even working.
00:34:37 <ehird> oklopol: also it's dog slow
00:34:38 <ehird> :D
00:34:52 <oklopol> yes, that's true
00:35:42 <ehird> reaaaaaaaaaally slow
00:35:42 <ehird> oklopol:
00:35:47 <ehird> you should make it migrate an entire region at a time
00:35:48 <ehird> XD
00:36:00 <oklopol> whaddya mean
00:36:18 <ehird> like
00:36:24 <ehird> a glider goes straight to the next glider step
00:36:28 <ehird> then it goes on to the rest of the grid
00:39:06 <oklopol> okay there's a bug.
00:39:08 <oklopol> err
00:39:21 <oklopol> i have no idea what you mean, unless you mean what you said, which you cannot have meant
00:39:32 <ehird> oklopol: as in
00:39:34 <ehird> if there's a glider there
00:39:37 <ehird> make the glider go on to the next glider iteration
00:39:40 <oklopol> anyway if you change the first four lines to
00:39:41 <ehird> then calculate all the rest of the grid
00:39:41 <oklopol> *[ss*]*
00:39:41 <oklopol> eeeeeeeeeeessssssssss
00:39:41 <oklopol> *ee*ee*wwww
00:39:41 <oklopol> wwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnn
00:39:51 <oklopol> a row of three
00:39:59 <oklopol> you can clearly see it do one correct iteration
00:40:04 <oklopol> then fail on the next iteration
00:40:04 <ehird> yeah but
00:40:06 <ehird> it takes 5 years.
00:40:06 <ehird> :D
00:40:29 <oklopol> yeah that canvas thing is much too slow for this
00:40:50 <ehird> oklopol: hard to get much faster
00:40:53 <ehird> thats the fastest interp so far
00:40:54 <ehird> but oklopol
00:40:58 <ehird> put up the iterations per animation
00:40:59 <ehird> to like 2000
00:41:01 <ehird> and delay=0
00:41:27 <oklopol> does that do some kind of optimization?
00:43:44 <ehird> oklopol: it makes it do 2000 iterations per animation
00:43:48 <ehird> and not wait per animation
00:43:56 <oklopol> i mean
00:44:00 <oklopol> does that interpreter do
00:44:31 <pgimeno> oklopol: wow, even if it does not seem to be working properly I'm impressed (and no, the interpreter doesn't optimize, except it has a jumps table)
00:45:27 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure it works now, had just a minor bug
00:45:46 <pgimeno> clicky?
00:45:54 <oklopol> (forgot i need to forget the old values at some point, and an error naturally occurs due to this only on the second iteration)
00:46:03 <Sgeo> Is it safe to say that the sort of person in this channel is the sort who has no need to cheat on exams/
00:46:17 <ehird> Sgeo: why?
00:46:30 <pgimeno> I had to cheat on history exams :P
00:46:45 <Sgeo> On my economics exam, the professor left the room for a few minutes, and I hear everyone asking things like "For 5, what did you get?", things like that
00:47:11 <oklopol> heh
00:47:55 <oklopol> i was recently the only one to score a 5/5 in one exam, i think it'd be a bit counterproductive to ask people what they answer :P
00:48:08 <Sgeo> oklopol, lol, same here
00:48:25 <Sgeo> There were two questions I was clueless about
00:48:31 <Sgeo> But I would NEVER consider cheating
00:48:43 <oklopol> we usually have 4 questions, if you don't know the answer to 2, you fail.
00:48:56 <Sgeo> 50 question exam
00:49:03 <oklopol> :D
00:49:04 <oklopol> okily
00:49:39 <oklopol> i have nothing against cheating.
00:49:42 <pgimeno> oklopol: can I see the fixed version?
00:49:44 <oklopol> cheating is pretty cool.
00:49:54 <oklopol> pgimeno: yes, not that i'm sure it still works ;)
00:50:34 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p533314231.txt
00:50:38 <oklopol> that seems to work
00:50:45 <oklopol> it's a row of 3 blobs
00:50:59 <oklopol> goes vertical - horizontal - vertical ...
00:51:36 <oklopol> (the last cycle's value is in the bottom-left of a 2x2 square, current is in top-right.)
00:51:53 <oklopol> would probably be clearer if they were like next to each other or if the squares were bigger or something
00:52:08 <oklopol> but, it'd take me quite a while to do even a trivial change, because that's all manually done.
00:52:15 <oklopol> (thought it'd be a lot shorter)
00:52:53 <pgimeno> great!
00:52:54 <oklopol> if you want to know what the flicker is all about, the top-left thingie is the current cell being modified
00:53:07 <oklopol> the one on bottom-right is where the counrer ends
00:53:09 <oklopol> *counter
00:53:23 <oklopol> the four flickering lights are the negations of the counter's cells
00:53:36 <oklopol> (makes the logic to check what happens to current cell clearer)
00:54:24 <pgimeno> what about the glider?
00:55:01 <oklopol> that gets very confusing, i didn't check whether it works :D
00:55:10 <oklopol> but i can try, after this other test i'm doing now
00:56:48 -!- adimit has left (?).
00:57:03 <oklopol> okay
00:57:05 <oklopol> glider works
00:57:28 <oklopol> bye adimit
00:57:38 <pgimeno> whoa
00:58:40 <oklopol> whoa at gol?
00:59:12 <pgimeno> yeah
00:59:42 <pgimeno> if you cleared the cells done it would be great too
00:59:57 <oklopol> what do you mean
01:00:09 <oklopol> err, the last values?
01:00:12 <oklopol> yeah hmm err indeed
01:00:20 <oklopol> i could do that, i just need the last row
01:00:31 <oklopol> lol i never even thought of that:D
01:00:40 <oklopol> *that :D
01:00:51 <pgimeno> heh
01:01:05 <oklopol> let's see... this should be trivial
01:02:09 <oklopol> done
01:02:12 <oklopol> so
01:02:16 <oklopol> i code for 4 hours
01:02:41 <oklopol> and you fix everything in a second
01:03:41 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p422562455.txt <<< because of the change, there's now a piece of code there that doesn't do anything.
01:03:46 <oklopol> just in case someone wants a challenge
01:03:49 <pgimeno> you who?
01:03:51 <oklopol> wait
01:04:03 <oklopol> damn, it's trivial to find it, i've commented that code.
01:04:06 <oklopol> pgimeno: you
01:04:23 <oklopol> anyway
01:04:26 <oklopol> look, it's pretty now.
01:04:57 <oklopol> hmm...
01:04:59 <jayCampbell> > Weave and brainfork conventions can be used together. That is, multiple initial threads can be started using semicolons, and embedded Y's can cause further forking.
01:05:05 <oklopol> wonder what happens when it hits the border...
01:05:09 <jayCampbell> pew-pew-pew
01:05:22 <jayCampbell> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:JayCampbell/weave.rb
01:05:30 <pgimeno> for the record, the second version of langton's ant took me about 3 hours
01:06:39 <oklopol> hmm. wonder how long it took me to do 110
01:07:18 <pgimeno> yay, so cool now :)
01:07:25 <oklopol> btw that crashes completely when the glider hits the border :P
01:07:37 <oklopol> what's langton's and again
01:07:49 <oklopol> the ant is somewhere, and it turns right or left depending on current cell
01:07:55 <oklopol> and flips it if something.
01:08:05 <oklopol> *langton's ant
01:08:47 <pgimeno> there's a current direction, turn left and if 0, turn right if 1, flip and advance
01:08:55 <pgimeno> s/and//
01:09:46 <oklopol> always flip?
01:09:50 <pgimeno> yes
01:09:56 <oklopol> that's pretty neat
01:10:15 <oklopol> now i almost feel like making that in pf... :D
01:10:19 <pgimeno> the second version fills the whole 2x2 square
01:10:23 <oklopol> how long was yours again? ;)
01:10:30 <oklopol> (the code)
01:10:31 <pgimeno> which is what makes it notable
01:10:43 <oklopol> hmm, what do you mean?
01:10:44 <pgimeno> err, remarkable
01:11:14 <pgimeno> try and see: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-langton-nonhollow.pfk
01:11:21 <pgimeno> grr
01:11:32 <pgimeno> try and see: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-langton-nothollow.pfk
01:12:07 <oklopol> so
01:12:12 <oklopol> err
01:12:15 <oklopol> the current cell
01:12:24 <oklopol> stores the direction, it's not completely black, right
01:12:30 <oklopol> ohh
01:12:35 <oklopol> wait..
01:12:41 <oklopol> yeah i think you need that.
01:12:51 <oklopol> i'll step-by-step, don't answer!
01:13:16 <oklopol> wait
01:13:20 <oklopol> now i closed the interp :D
01:13:20 <oklopol> ...
01:14:09 <oklopol> so yeah okay, that's pretty good, although i'm pretty sure you could get that compressed quite a lot
01:14:25 <pgimeno> maybe, I didn't figure how
01:14:42 * pgimeno is seeing the r demon in life
01:15:08 <oklopol> can you tell me what that code does? i don't feel like reading
01:15:24 <oklopol> like, the gist of how you do it
01:16:11 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-langton-nothollow-commented.pfk
01:17:06 <pgimeno> wherever it says "we came from x" it should say "our last move was x"
01:18:11 <oklopol> i have to go sleep now, i'll read that tomorrow
01:18:11 <oklopol> cya
01:18:14 <oklopol> ->
01:19:20 <pgimeno> k, nite
01:50:11 <jayCampbell> paintfuck is not "borderline-esoteric"
01:53:07 <pgimeno> mmm... define that?
01:54:27 <pgimeno> never mind, gtg
01:55:01 <jayCampbell> warrie has there ever been an Easy interpreter?
01:58:24 <pgimeno> there is another Easy
01:59:35 <pgimeno> http://p-nand-q.com/humor/programming_languages/gplz/gplz_easy.html
02:00:07 <pgimeno> and bye :)
02:00:30 <jayCampbell> moo
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05:13:22 <jayCampbell> You are standing inside your ramshackle wooden hut.
05:13:35 <jayCampbell> weave plays Lost Kingdom
05:13:55 <jayCampbell> i'm going to ask jon ripley to make it multiplayer
05:13:57 <jayCampbell> lol
05:29:34 <decipher> ehird: i checked your copier, it's sweet :)
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06:06:13 <jayCampbell> $ ./weave.rb 99.bf 99.bf 99.bf
06:06:13 <jayCampbell> 999999 bbbooottttttllleeesss ooofff bbbeeeeeerrr ooonnn ttthhheee wwwaaallllll,,,
06:06:13 <jayCampbell> 999999 bbbooottttttllleeesss ooofff bbbeeeeeerrr,,,
06:06:13 <jayCampbell> $ ./weave.rb sange-archive/hello*
06:06:13 <jayCampbell> HHHELLOWelloheallo t HelloW WORWoLrlDd!
06:06:14 <jayCampbell> orld!!
06:06:16 <jayCampbell> worldis!
06:06:18 <jayCampbell> your name?
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08:05:54 <jayCampbell> so now i'm gluing pbrain into weave too
08:07:07 <jayCampbell> it will soon be .. an irc bot with persistent threaded cross-communicating subroutine-calling brainfucks
08:07:18 <jayCampbell> because, you know, that's exactly what the world needs
08:12:29 <oerjan> the world is _so_ fucked
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11:27:09 <MizardX> Heh. I tried to calculate the number of ways I could generate all the permutations of a given cycle by just shifting subsequences one step at the time. For zero-, one- and two-length cycles I got the answer 1. For a three-length cycle I got 40 within a second. But trying to calculate it for a four-length cycle, it almost froze up the whole computer :S
11:27:10 <MizardX> My guess is that the number is around 2*n!!/(n!^2) :)
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12:38:22 <ehird> decipher: thanks
12:38:24 <ehird> but it only handles one-rows
12:50:12 <decipher> but i am sure you can generalize
12:50:32 <decipher> also, on my obfuscated interpreter the copying was quite fast
13:12:53 <ehird> decipher: well, it's hard to generalize to arbitrary depth because if you just sweep through it, you eat up the walls
13:28:22 <ehird> decipher: if you have any ideas, though?
13:41:14 <oklopol> what copyer
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13:42:48 <ehird> oklopol: paintfuck
13:42:55 <ehird> it copies a line leftwards constantly
13:43:04 <ehird> i.e. you can put any one line and it scrolls it
13:43:04 <ehird> sloooooowly
13:43:09 <ehird> i want to generalize it to any depth
13:43:11 <ehird> somehow
13:43:21 <oklopol> mm'kay, isn't that like 10 characters of code?
13:43:28 <ehird> no
13:43:33 <ehird> you have to detect the ceiling/floor
13:43:35 <ehird> to go right one
13:43:39 <ehird> otherwise you eat the walls up
13:43:43 <ehird> and never go on to the next column
13:43:54 <ehird> the one-line copier is trivial ofc
13:45:40 <decipher> ehird: your routine was more like a move than copy :)
13:46:07 <decipher> although i am not sure if it might be possible to dynamically calculate the offset and move the head accordingly at all
13:46:18 <decipher> as in, i am not sure if a true copy algorithm can be possible
13:46:27 <ehird> decipher: oh, true
13:46:34 <ehird> well it was a scroll
13:46:34 <ehird> really
13:46:38 <ehird> but
13:46:43 <ehird> i dont' think you can do a generic scroll
13:46:48 <ehird> its impossible to tell walls from blocks
13:46:49 <ehird> UNLESS
13:46:54 <ehird> you make the wall a special pattern
13:47:00 <ehird> that your program detects
13:47:07 <ehird> then you can't copy that pattern, but if it's weird enough it won't happen
13:47:12 <decipher> true, but that's not "general" then :)
13:47:19 <ehird> as general as matters :P
13:47:24 <decipher> haha
13:59:44 <pgimeno> my binary counter (may assume infinite grid): sse*ww*[e*[*nn[*s*e*wn]se[*wn*se]s*]*w*[*s[*]nw*]*en[*e]*s[*e*w]*[*e*]s*n*[*w*]s[*]*]
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14:00:05 <ehird> pgimeno: niiiiiiiice
14:00:09 <ehird> hmm
14:00:13 <ehird> someone make a decimal conuter
14:00:14 <ehird> counter
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14:00:20 <ehird> that OCRs the digits it outputs to add :)
14:00:30 <lostgeek> hi
14:00:36 <ehird> hi
14:00:51 <pgimeno> hi lostgeek
14:11:34 <ehird> lostgeek: context for what i was saying -
14:11:45 <ehird> a decimal counter would be cool, i.e. it draws the digits and OCRs them to increment :)
14:15:58 <AnMaster> my bday today
14:15:59 <AnMaster> :)
14:18:01 <lostgeek> grats AnMaster :)
14:18:08 <AnMaster> thanks
14:18:12 <AnMaster> :)
14:18:25 <ehird> AnMaster said something?
14:18:27 <ehird> (He's on /ignore.)
14:18:36 <AnMaster> lostgeek, hm I can't remember seeing you here before?
14:18:40 <AnMaster> at least not under that nick
14:19:04 <lostgeek> AnMaster: I joined yesterday ;)
14:19:16 <AnMaster> ah
14:19:24 <ehird> (Context for a person who I cannot see: He's a paintfuck person.)
14:22:10 <lostgeek> ehird: would be cool, but I think a bit hard to realize
14:22:21 <ehird> lostgeek: i don't think -that- hard
14:22:35 <lostgeek> dunno...
14:22:45 <ehird> i mean, write code to output a certain digit for 0-9, then one to look at its pixels (just make them monospaced) to detect it into the head
14:22:49 <ehird> then just do regular adding stuff
14:22:53 <ehird> not easy, but not really hard
14:26:51 <pgimeno> last, shorter, faster version of binary cnt: sse*ww*[e*[*nn[*s*e*wn]se[*wn*se]s*]s[*]*nw*[*s[*]nw*]*en[*e]*ss[*e*w]n*[*w*]s*]
14:30:55 <AnMaster> pgimeno, language?
14:31:20 <lostgeek> AnMaster: PaintFuck
14:31:26 <AnMaster> ah
14:33:14 <AnMaster> hm
14:35:49 <ehird> pgimeno: that's not shorter...
14:39:08 <oklopol> binary cunt?
14:39:17 <ehird> i know oklopol would say that.
14:39:25 <ehird> we could just replace him with a bot and never notice.
14:39:25 <ehird> probably.
14:39:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:39:30 <ehird> apart from the coding skills part.
14:40:26 <AnMaster> heh
14:41:20 <oklopol> to inc a binary counter, when you're on a constant 1-bit to the right of it, w[*]*w*[*e*]*, you go left, then null all ones, make the zero into a one, then go right, skip all the zeroes to land on the constant bit to the right of the counter
14:41:30 <oklopol> to do this constantly, add a while to that
14:41:37 <oklopol> what are you guys doing then?
14:42:41 <oklopol> wait that doesn't work
14:42:44 <oklopol> LOL
14:42:52 <ehird> hi ais523
14:44:49 <ais523> hi ehird
14:45:05 <AnMaster> hello ais523
14:45:09 <AnMaster> my bday today :)
14:46:44 <ais523> AnMaster: I say the appropriate response, but such that ehird doesn't have a clue what I mean due to lack of context
14:47:12 <ehird> I do actions by saying them to IRC.
14:48:26 <oklopol> [w[*w]*e*[*e*]*] <<< binary coutner
14:48:28 <oklopol> *counter
14:48:32 <oklopol> sorry, i just woke up
14:49:07 <oklopol> also the police calls, i couln't really tell them what the pizza attackers looked like, so they're gonna go photograph the whole staff and show me the pics :D
14:49:16 <ais523> oklopol: pizza attackers?
14:49:25 <oklopol> yeah
14:49:40 <oklopol> about a week ago, i ordered pizza, and got beat up by the delivery guys
14:49:53 <ais523> what sort of delivery guy does that?
14:50:02 <ehird> oklopol: hahaha
14:50:12 <ehird> maybe you called up the Punch 'n Pizza place instead
14:50:25 <oklopol> ais523: i would tell you what i think the answer is, but that would be racist.
14:50:26 <ehird> [w[*w]*e*[*e*]*] <-- oklopol how can this work it will never run
14:50:38 <oklopol> ehird: you have to be on a constant 1 bit
14:50:42 <ehird> oklopol: they were blobs of mauve goo?
14:50:50 <oklopol> ehird: they were FINNISH
14:51:03 <ehird> !!!!!!!!!!!!
14:51:09 <ehird> goddamn finns
14:51:17 <ehird> scum the lot of them
14:51:38 <ehird> oklopol: your binary counter is pretty awesome
14:51:46 <ehird> w*[w[*w]*e*[*e*]*]
14:51:50 <oklopol> were you doing that same thing?
14:51:50 <ehird> the full experience
14:51:58 <ehird> ?
14:52:08 <ais523> hmm... it seems the Door was broken again last Sunday, good thing I didn't try it
14:52:16 <oklopol> ehird: i mean
14:52:28 <oklopol> that long code there, about a binary cunt, was it that same thing
14:52:41 <ehird> well no
14:52:45 <ehird> it kept the previous results
14:52:46 <ehird> and um
14:52:49 <ehird> didn't look like yours
14:52:54 <ehird> oklopol: you should make yours actually output in binary
14:52:57 <ehird> instead of a soldi line
14:53:40 <oklopol> not sure what you mean
14:53:54 <oklopol> maybe i could run yours..........
14:54:24 <oklopol> so okay, like that
14:54:27 <oklopol> i can do that....
14:54:47 <ehird> um oklopol
14:54:50 <ehird> i didnt write one
14:54:50 <ehird> :|
14:55:06 <oklopol> ehird: i mean the set {ehird, pgimeno}
14:55:09 <oklopol> OBVIOUSLY
14:55:11 <oklopol> :P
14:56:02 <oklopol> anyway i don't think i'll actually do it, why the fuck would i
14:57:24 <ehird> oklopol:
14:57:24 <ehird> *w*[[*w*]*e*e*[*e*]*w*]
14:57:30 <ehird> i just made your counter simpler
14:57:30 <ehird> :P
14:57:41 <oklopol> you made it longer
14:57:50 <ehird> yes but it runs simpler
14:57:52 <oklopol> ohh
14:57:54 <ehird> it doesn't use binary
14:57:54 <ehird> a all
14:57:55 <oklopol> and it's not a binary counter
14:57:56 <ehird> at all :P
14:58:03 <ehird> oklopol: a binary counter would OUTPUT IN BINARY
14:58:06 <oklopol> *[w*]
14:58:10 <oklopol> that's faster
14:58:17 <ehird> exactly
14:58:22 <ehird> oklopol: so make it output in binary! :P
14:58:27 <oklopol> ehird: it outputs in binary, just doesn't store the values
14:58:29 <ehird> 0 = space, 1 = dot naturally
14:58:55 <oklopol> that's a binary counter, pgimeno's is one that outputs binary numbers
14:59:10 <oklopol> which isn't really useful, unlike a counter
14:59:28 <ehird> ais523: we're talking about paintfuck
14:59:40 <ehird> which is the first interesting bf dialect in ages
14:59:40 <ehird> http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=3710.0
14:59:47 <ehird> the thing is, the memory is actually the screen
14:59:54 <ehird> so your program has to think in its output drawing format
15:00:03 <ehird> langton's ant, game of life, rule 110, etc have been done
15:00:20 <oklopol> i'm not saying paintfuck isn't interesting, i'm just saying it's not a new idea
15:00:31 <ehird> oklopol: yeah ok w/e :P
15:00:35 <ehird> but ais523 hasn't seen it
15:00:35 <ehird> so
15:00:42 <ehird> ais523: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-canvas.php javascript interp, it's fast
15:00:50 <oklopol> but what is new is someone having linked an implementation so i can play with it :P
15:01:27 * ehird makes his counter go forever
15:02:52 <oklopol> argh
15:02:57 <oklopol> i'm still here
15:03:00 <oklopol> doing absolutely nothing
15:04:31 <ehird> *w*[[[*w*]*e*e*[*e*]*w*]*s*e*w]
15:04:34 <ehird> infinite count
15:05:03 <ehird> aka slowest screen fillder ever
15:05:06 <ehird> *filler
15:05:56 <oklopol> not really, that's O(n^2) filling tiem
15:06:02 <oklopol> wait...
15:06:19 <oklopol> n*sqrt(n) is more like it
15:06:38 <ehird> oklopol: after it fills the screen it then mangles the topleft and topright pixels
15:06:40 <oklopol> point is doing it in binary is O(2^n)
15:06:43 <ehird> so it's the slowest screen filler ever
15:06:48 <ehird> as it takes more than infinite time to fill the screen
15:06:51 <oklopol> what do you mean?
15:07:00 <ehird> oklopol: it makes the topleft and topright pixels blac
15:07:01 <ehird> k
15:07:04 <ehird> at the end
15:07:07 <oklopol> infinity = -1, as we all know
15:07:15 <oklopol> so it's as fast as you can get
15:10:25 <oklopol> err..... what the fuck, still here......
15:10:30 <oklopol> i'm such a slacker
15:10:34 <oklopol> soon i will go
15:10:39 <oklopol> maybe... now
15:10:41 <oklopol> ->
15:39:02 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/langtonsant.php - Langton's ant (unrelated to PFK)
15:39:20 <pgimeno> not programmable though
15:39:29 <lostgeek> AnMaster: PaintFuck
15:39:34 <lostgeek> arrrrrrrrgh
15:39:43 <ehird> gee how many times have we said "AnMaster: PaintFuck" today
15:39:53 <lostgeek> well this time it was my fault
15:40:12 <lostgeek> i thought i was in the other terminal window and pressed up and enter
15:45:48 <AnMaster> hm?
15:45:59 <AnMaster> lostgeek, did you want it?
15:46:05 <AnMaster> err
15:46:08 <AnMaster> did you want something
15:46:09 <AnMaster> I meant
15:46:12 <lostgeek> nope
15:46:15 <AnMaster> ok
15:58:21 <AnMaster> back
15:58:24 <AnMaster> huh
15:58:31 <AnMaster> forgot to say afk heh
15:58:42 <AnMaster> ais523, and thanks btw
15:58:45 <AnMaster> didn't see it abvoie
15:58:46 <AnMaster> above*
16:13:33 <AnMaster> AnMaster, hm... *poke*
16:13:40 <AnMaster> anything interesting?
16:13:44 <AnMaster> or busy with "rl2
16:13:45 <AnMaster> err
16:13:47 <AnMaster> or busy with "rl"*
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16:20:53 -!- puzzlet has joined.
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16:26:20 <lostgeek> mh. I got a problem with my code window...
16:26:46 <lostgeek> lets say I have a loop like *[w*] or something
16:26:51 <ais523> AnMaster: busy with things including RL
16:27:03 <ais523> and some non-RL but non-eso programming
16:27:05 <lostgeek> and my pointer is on the second *
16:27:17 <ais523> and trying to recover an email that Outlook Web Access deleted yesterday
16:27:23 <ais523> I spent over an hour writing it
16:27:24 <lostgeek> now I call nextStep() and move to ']'
16:27:31 <ais523> then accidentally hit back on my mouse, and couldn't get back to it
16:27:33 <ais523> so I'm rewriting it
16:27:43 <lostgeek> where I jump back to '['
16:28:04 <lostgeek> how I was solving it was to jump back to the left of '['
16:28:49 <lostgeek> but in that case my pointer is on the first * which is confusing, since I don't execute it
16:29:01 <AnMaster> ais523, ah
16:29:12 <lostgeek> any ideas how to solve that?
16:29:18 <AnMaster> ais523, ouch
16:30:06 <AnMaster> lostgeek, you move before you execute or execute before you move?
16:30:18 <lostgeek> move before I execute
16:30:34 <lostgeek> which solves other problems I would have when executing before moving
16:30:52 <AnMaster> lostgeek, now I don't 1) know how similar it is to plain bf, 2) what language you are writing it in
16:30:59 <AnMaster> but if it was C and plain bf
16:31:02 <ehird> http://www.iq0.com/notes/deep.nesting.html
16:31:11 <ehird> (AnMaster will hate that article)
16:31:11 <AnMaster> I would just connect the ] node's next pointer to the matching [
16:31:14 <AnMaster> while I'm parsing
16:31:27 <AnMaster> the up pointer to the instruction after
16:31:51 <AnMaster> and the ['s down pointer to the first instruction in the loop
16:31:54 <AnMaster> or something like that
16:32:27 <AnMaster> lostgeek, and move before execute is sane
16:32:43 <lostgeek> I'm working with strings (on java)
16:32:51 <ehird> lostgeek: prepaer
16:32:53 <ehird> *preparse
16:32:55 <ehird> the code before execution
16:33:07 <AnMaster> no idea about java
16:33:21 <AnMaster> but I would represent the source of plain bf as a 2D linked list
16:33:37 <AnMaster> actually to save some space I wouldn't have separate up and down pointers in the structs
16:33:43 <AnMaster> I would have a single "aux" pointer
16:33:54 <AnMaster> since I wouldn't need up and down in the same struct
16:34:03 <AnMaster> need both*
16:34:39 <lostgeek> mh ok. I added a TODO :)
16:34:42 <lostgeek> thanke
16:34:46 <lostgeek> thanks
16:34:52 <AnMaster> lostgeek, but this may be totally crazy to do in java
16:34:54 <AnMaster> I got no idea
16:35:13 <lostgeek> AnMaster: I think there are LinkedLists in Java. But working with strings was easier
16:35:29 <ehird> lostgeek:
16:35:48 <ehird> public class BFNode { public char type; public BFNode stuff; public BFNode next; }
16:36:18 <ehird> lostgeek: {type='[', stuff={type='w', stuff=null, next=null}, next={type='*', stuff=null, next=null}}
16:36:23 <ehird> lostgeek: then just recurse to loop
16:36:27 <ehird> or keep a manual stack
16:37:29 <lostgeek> yeah. may be a good way to solve it.
16:37:31 <AnMaster> lostgeek, well I did it like this: mmap() source bf file, write a recursive parser to build the tree, pass the tree to the optimizer (replaces ++- with +, reorganize >-<+>-< into >--<+ and such as well as replace ---- with -4)
16:37:37 <AnMaster> then I pass it to the emitter
16:37:40 <ehird> its the only way to solve it sanely
16:37:42 <AnMaster> that emitted it as C code
16:37:42 <ehird> :P
16:37:48 <ehird> of course, insane is good too
16:37:50 <AnMaster> then I used system() to call the compiler
16:37:59 <ais523> AnMaster: do you replace >>>> with >4?
16:37:59 <AnMaster> since it was a compiler, not an interpreter
16:38:05 <ais523> gcc-bf really, really needs that optimisation
16:38:08 <AnMaster> ais523, yes of course
16:38:16 <ais523> in fact, I'm considering just getting it to output run-length-encoded BF
16:38:23 <AnMaster> ais523, however it was the one with huge duff's device due to being Def-BF
16:38:25 <ais523> easy enough to postprocess that into normal BF
16:38:25 <AnMaster> but since that is dead
16:38:30 <AnMaster> code reuse should be good
16:38:39 <AnMaster> I have considered several other optimizing techniques
16:38:54 <AnMaster> such as in a balanced loop try to pre-compute certain parts
16:38:56 <AnMaster> like
16:39:07 <AnMaster> [>++>+<<-]
16:39:10 <AnMaster> then you could do
16:39:41 <AnMaster> while (*ptr != 0) { *(ptr+1)+=2; *(ptr+2)++; }
16:39:42 <AnMaster> basically
16:39:47 <AnMaster> well not exactly
16:39:50 <AnMaster> but something like that
16:39:54 <AnMaster> instead of moving ptr
16:40:08 <AnMaster> oh and decrement too
16:40:13 <AnMaster> don't forget that heh
16:40:35 <AnMaster> ais523, see what I mean?
16:40:51 <AnMaster> and if number of iterations can be pre-computed...
16:40:56 <AnMaster> well you could gain a lot
16:41:05 <AnMaster> so it should try to track possible states
16:41:07 <AnMaster> of all cells
16:41:21 <AnMaster> you can *know* the state after a [-] (turned into a set zero by the optimizer)
16:41:33 <AnMaster> then if you can compute the value it has a bit later
16:41:38 <AnMaster> you can turn it into a set 3
16:41:40 <AnMaster> or whatever
16:41:50 <AnMaster> and if you know that at the start of a balanced loop...
16:41:59 <AnMaster> well you could either turn it into a for loop or unroll it
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16:42:11 <AnMaster> at least gcc compile for loops quite a bit faster than while loops
16:42:18 <AnMaster> ais523, :)
16:42:27 <AnMaster> what do you think of these ideas?
16:42:32 <AnMaster> I assume they aren't new
16:42:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I've considered similar things myself
16:43:01 <AnMaster> however I'm unsure if I could manage to implement this
16:43:19 <AnMaster> I mean even writing the basic optimizer was quite painful in C
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16:43:33 <AnMaster> some sort of tree rewriting language, hmm
16:43:36 <whtspc> hi
16:43:36 <AnMaster> ais523, oil?
16:43:41 <AnMaster> isn't that for that
16:43:44 <ehird> yo
16:43:46 <ais523> AnMaster: yes
16:43:49 <AnMaster> would need a different variant though
16:43:51 <ehird> whtspc: oklopol wrote a Game of Life
16:43:51 <ehird> it's slow
16:43:55 <AnMaster> something that isn't as intercal specific
16:44:00 <AnMaster> and that is possible to actually read
16:44:01 <ais523> although OIL was defined specifically for INTERCAL, it would be possible to do similar langs for other langs
16:44:06 <ais523> and OIL is readable
16:44:13 <AnMaster> ais523, do you know of any existing one?
16:44:14 <ais523> at least compared to INTERCAL
16:44:20 <whtspc> I saw something, is there a definite version?
16:44:27 <whtspc> ehird?
16:44:27 <ais523> AnMaster: no, or possibly I'd have used them rather than writing OIL from scratch
16:44:38 <ehird> whtspc: conway's game of life
16:44:39 <AnMaster> ais523, ah
16:44:53 <AnMaster> ais523, still oil couldn't easily do variable tracking
16:45:02 <AnMaster> or could it?
16:45:09 <AnMaster> what computational class is oil btw?
16:45:28 <whtspc> i saw the one with the three block, amazing!
16:45:29 <ais523> AnMaster: PDA, I think
16:45:32 <ehird> whtspc: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p422562455.txt
16:45:36 <ehird> also
16:45:37 <ehird> which on
16:45:37 <ehird> e
16:46:01 <whtspc> cool
16:46:09 <AnMaster> ais523, PDA?
16:46:16 <AnMaster> you mean like a PDA computer?
16:46:17 <AnMaster> err
16:46:19 <ais523> push-down automaton
16:46:21 <AnMaster> ah
16:46:23 <AnMaster> hah
16:47:08 <AnMaster> ais523, still variable tracing/tracking hm, I don't know how I would even do that
16:47:23 <AnMaster> I mean I could try to trace the entire program but that would be insane
16:47:38 <AnMaster> I would need to give up at unbalanced loops and so on
16:47:39 <AnMaster> hrrm
16:47:59 <ais523> I've been having insane ideas as to how to optimise unbalanced loops, etc
16:48:05 <AnMaster> and what about new simplification possible after the first pass?
16:48:19 <AnMaster> should you try to run it again?
16:48:19 <AnMaster> ais523, how?
16:48:20 <whtspc> I like to be able to easily save programs in sort of database, do you guys use something special for that?
16:48:39 <AnMaster> I can see how if you just reorganize a bit but leave the pointer the same at the end and the start
16:48:39 <AnMaster> say
16:48:41 <whtspc> should I just open a blog to quickly paste things in
16:48:48 <AnMaster> [>++<->+>>]
16:48:51 <AnMaster> that could be moved
16:48:52 <AnMaster> to
16:49:00 <AnMaster> [>+++<->>>]
16:49:07 <ehird> whtspc: umm
16:49:09 <AnMaster> and that could be moved to
16:49:09 <ehird> a filesystem
16:49:11 <ehird> heard of 'em
16:49:17 <AnMaster> [->+++>>]
16:49:22 <ehird> if you wanna share it, pastie.org
16:49:27 <AnMaster> but that is about all you can do for them
16:49:36 <ehird> if you want to get a list of them, insertsomerandomwordshereandbookmarkit.pastebin.com
16:49:40 <AnMaster> sure you could try to generate effective code
16:50:01 <AnMaster> such as substract, add 3 to next, add 3 to pointer
16:50:11 <AnMaster> but that is still about it
16:50:12 <whtspc> yeah thought about pastebin
16:50:19 <AnMaster> ais523, so what is your idea then?
16:50:44 <ais523> AnMaster: work out what's being used for what
16:51:05 <AnMaster> ais523, it would be very hard to track what the state is at the end of the loop compared to the start
16:51:10 <AnMaster> what cells are affected
16:51:11 <AnMaster> and such
16:51:33 <AnMaster> ais523, probably possible and extremely hard for a few cases
16:51:40 <AnMaster> and impossible for the majority
16:51:44 <AnMaster> that is my *feeling*
16:51:45 <ais523> so for instance you might deduce that there's a location that's always reached by [>>>] from a particular point
16:51:46 <ais523> that moves around
16:51:54 <AnMaster> ais523, hm
16:52:06 <AnMaster> ais523, example?
16:52:48 <whtspc> wow, game of life :)
16:52:55 <ais523> AnMaster: not easily
16:53:21 <AnMaster> ais523, hm ok... The worst thing is if you can't figure out, for example say it is based on user input, then figure out where you can resume
16:53:23 <ehird> whtspc: also
16:53:28 <ehird> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck-canvas.php
16:53:31 <ehird> new pgimeno interpr
16:53:33 <ehird> really fast
16:53:45 <AnMaster> if it wasn't for unbalanced loops it would be very very easy to find out
16:53:45 <whtspc> yeah using it right now for life
16:53:50 <AnMaster> and it would also be non-tc
16:54:00 <whtspc> it's the best for easy use too
16:54:29 <AnMaster> ais523, so how hm...
16:54:42 <whtspc> really looking forward to lostgeek things too
16:54:51 <ais523> AnMaster: basically in the style of Proud, but saner
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16:55:02 <ais523> have a huge set of plausible assumptions to start off with
16:55:11 <ais523> then given the current set of assumptions, see which are contradicted by the program
16:55:18 <AnMaster> ais523, Proud, hm was that the uncomputable one?
16:55:23 <ais523> continue iterating until you have a consistent set of assumptions
16:55:24 <ais523> AnMaster: yes
16:55:36 <ais523> Proud's like I suggested but with an uncountably infinite set of assumptions
16:55:42 <ais523> whereas I was planning just a finite number
16:56:13 <AnMaster> ais523, well, finite would be uh 255 * number of cells! or something like that?
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16:56:30 <AnMaster> also
16:56:35 <AnMaster> +[>+]
16:56:39 <AnMaster> ais523, :P
16:56:47 <AnMaster> ^bf +[>+]
16:56:52 <AnMaster> fungot, ?
16:56:52 <fungot> AnMaster: same core language that the rest of the arguments
16:56:56 <AnMaster> ^help
16:56:56 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
16:57:09 <AnMaster> why didn't it say "out of time"?
16:57:17 <AnMaster> ^bf +[>+]
16:57:29 <AnMaster> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++.
16:57:30 <fungot>
16:57:32 <AnMaster> hm
16:57:39 <AnMaster> ^bf +++[>++.]
16:57:39 <fungot> ...
16:57:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, is it broken?
16:58:35 <AnMaster> ^bf ----.[>+.]
16:58:35 <fungot> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP> ...
16:58:37 <ais523> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
16:58:38 <fungot> B
16:58:41 <AnMaster> ^bf ----.[>+]
16:58:42 <fungot>
16:58:51 <AnMaster> now that doesn't look right at all
16:58:58 <ais523> the out of stuff thing seems broken
16:59:04 <ais523> ^bf +[]
16:59:05 <AnMaster> ais523, yes
16:59:09 <fungot> ...out of time!
16:59:14 <ais523> ...
16:59:18 <AnMaster> huh
16:59:25 <AnMaster> ^bf ----.[]
16:59:30 <fungot> ...out of time!
16:59:49 <AnMaster> ais523, seems it fails for "out of cells"
16:59:58 <AnMaster> or out of tape
16:59:58 <ais523> ^bf <
17:00:19 <AnMaster> that shouldn't even be legal
17:00:28 <AnMaster> ^hi
17:00:30 <ais523> AnMaster: that's out of tape too, just off the other end
17:00:37 <ais523> ^ul (test)S
17:00:37 <AnMaster> ^show
17:00:37 <fungot> test
17:00:37 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help
17:00:47 <AnMaster> ais523, hm
17:01:20 <oklopol> o
17:01:21 <oklopol> o
17:01:27 <ehird> oklopol: o
17:01:33 <oklopol> yes
17:01:35 <ais523> o o oko
17:01:40 <oklopol> okoko
17:01:44 <oklopol> okokokoko
17:01:46 <AnMaster> ais523, so how would you implement this optimizer?
17:01:47 <oklopol> okokokokokokoko
17:01:48 <AnMaster> I don't know
17:01:55 <AnMaster> I couldn't do it I guess
17:02:13 <AnMaster> ais523, also what would the assumptions be?
17:02:15 <ais523> AnMaster: I have too many toher things to think about, but I've thought about it before
17:02:26 <AnMaster> ais523, "any cell can have any value"?
17:02:30 <ais523> assumptions like "if the pointer points to this cell, it's location is always known"
17:02:39 <ais523> "every third cell is 0 when this point in the code is reached"
17:02:58 <AnMaster> ais523, yes true, but how do you find out a sane and/or initial set of these assumptions
17:02:58 <ais523> "when the pointer's at cell 3n, n>100, then [<<<] always goes to cell 99"
17:03:01 <ais523> that sort of thing
17:03:10 <ais523> and the initial set is just full of all the assumptions we can think of
17:03:15 <ais523> optimised somehow to save time
17:03:24 <ais523> then it iteratively works out which ones are false
17:03:27 <ais523> until it has a consistent set
17:04:23 <AnMaster> I would do it like tracing the code flow as far as I could then make that constant initial state. For the rest of the code I would have to use another way
17:04:40 <AnMaster> like trying to trace what variables are known at what points
17:05:02 <AnMaster> like as soon as I have a [-] I can know that cell's state until the next bad section
17:05:11 <AnMaster> like unbalanced loop, or input into said cell
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17:05:45 <AnMaster> ais523, that could work very well for gcc-bf output, but would perform rather poorly in the general case
17:05:46 <AnMaster> or such
17:06:11 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, probably
17:06:30 <ais523> we'd have to test it on lots of programs to see how real BF programs were generally written
17:06:33 <AnMaster> you would have to create an additional ruleset for the bfbasic or whatever it was called
17:06:43 <ais523> and it would be nice to have it working well on BFBASIC and on gcc-bf
17:06:46 <AnMaster> but for handwritten programs, wouldn't work well
17:07:01 <ais523> AnMaster: why not? handwritten programs mostly use the same sorts of idioms as each other
17:07:07 <AnMaster> hm
17:07:16 <AnMaster> ais523, you should be able to add new assumptions
17:07:23 <ais523> ofc
17:07:24 <AnMaster> I mean [-] is too good to miss out on
17:07:29 <AnMaster> "wow this cell is 0"
17:07:36 <ais523> AnMaster: that's not exactly adding a new assumption
17:07:40 <ais523> the assumption would be "pointer is 0 here"
17:07:46 <ais523> and it would never be contradicted
17:07:55 <ais523> so that one would stay in existence throughout the whole analysis
17:07:56 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed but then
17:07:58 <ais523> not added; just never taken away
17:08:03 <AnMaster> [-]>++<+++++
17:08:12 <AnMaster> that can be turned into
17:08:17 <ais523> AnMaster: after the > you have "left of pointer is 0 here"
17:08:25 <AnMaster> set cell to 5, >, add 2
17:08:28 <ais523> this only works if you have a huge stock of possible assumptions
17:08:49 <AnMaster> ais523, my point is you should be able to trace cell dependencies
17:08:58 <AnMaster> to work out you can turn that into a set to 5
17:08:59 <ais523> it does trace cell dependencies!
17:09:02 <AnMaster> ah
17:09:07 <ais523> once you have all the assumptions, then you optimise
17:09:14 <ais523> in this case, you get "pointer is 5 here" at the end
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17:09:21 <ais523> which is very easy to optimise
17:09:25 <ais523> *pointer = 5;
17:09:27 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and you need to find where that 5 is used
17:09:30 <AnMaster> for example
17:09:36 <ais523> yep, that would have been tracked already too
17:09:47 <AnMaster> [-]>++<+++++[>+<-]
17:09:51 <AnMaster> what about that?
17:09:58 <jayCampbell> i gave Weave pbrain-style functions last night, haven't uploaded
17:10:10 <AnMaster> you could turn that into, set 0, >, add 7
17:10:15 <jayCampbell> so now it's weave threads + brainfork runtime threads + bprain functions
17:10:22 <AnMaster> ais523, not sure you could make the program do that however easily
17:10:27 <AnMaster> the compiler I mean
17:10:53 <AnMaster> ais523, or?
17:10:58 <ais523> let's see, I'm thinking
17:11:14 <ais523> before the second [, we have "pointer is 5"
17:11:37 <AnMaster> yep and right of pointer is two more than at the start of the section
17:11:43 <ais523> yes
17:11:48 <ais523> we can calculate that the loop runs *pointer times
17:12:01 <AnMaster> yes and then we can unroll it,
17:12:02 <ais523> so we can replace it with >+<->+<->+<->+<->+<-
17:12:12 <ais523> and then it's easy from there
17:12:14 <AnMaster> and reorder that
17:12:26 <ais523> it would be more interesting if it was >++<+++++[>+<-] without the [-] at the start
17:12:32 <AnMaster> ais523, well the issue with that is, how far ahead should you try to look for merging addition substraction
17:12:43 <AnMaster> think of a 1 MB huge section without any loops
17:12:52 <AnMaster> but where each cell affected is touched several times
17:12:57 <AnMaster> that should be reordered
17:13:12 <ais523> I think we should probably work at the level of linearisable sections
17:13:12 <AnMaster> but it would be rather expensive for such a long section
17:13:19 <ais523> i.e. sections with balanced <>
17:13:28 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? yes the 1 MB section would have that
17:13:29 <ais523> optimising a 1MB long section without loops is no slower than running it
17:13:32 <ais523> and you only have to optimise it once
17:13:42 <AnMaster> or with loops but balanced ones
17:13:55 <AnMaster> <ais523> it would be more interesting if it was >++<+++++[>+<-] without the [-] at the start <-- how then?
17:14:34 <ais523> AnMaster: well, that becomes pointer[1]+=2; pointer[0]+=1; (pointer[1]+=pointer[0], pointer[0]=0);
17:14:44 <AnMaster> ais523, still I'm not sure this is the smartest way always
17:14:45 <ais523> because it's linearisable, we can track variables separately
17:14:48 <ais523> s/1/5/
17:14:59 <AnMaster> for some balanced loops you might be better off by not unrolling it
17:15:04 <AnMaster> but turning it into
17:15:25 <ais523> AnMaster: you can't unroll if you don't know the number of iteratinos
17:15:27 <ais523> *iterations
17:15:51 <AnMaster> while (mem[ptr] != 0) { mem[ptr+2]+=4, mem[ptr]--; }
17:15:52 <AnMaster> or such
17:15:56 <AnMaster> if you see what I mean
17:16:01 <AnMaster> or even into a for loop
17:16:08 <AnMaster> that could be vectorized by gcc
17:16:13 <AnMaster> with -fvectorize-tree
17:16:13 <ais523> but unrolling is always going to help the optimiser do more optimisations, you can reroll again afterwards
17:16:15 <AnMaster> :D
17:16:33 <AnMaster> ais523, how would you re-roll then? not trivial or?
17:17:07 <ais523> rerolling is just run length compression
17:17:19 <ais523> that's what gzip effectively is doing, rerolling loops in text
17:17:47 <AnMaster> for (unsigned char i = mem[ptr]; i != 0; i--); do { mem[ptr+1] += 1; mem[ptr+2] += 1; mem[ptr+3] += 1; }
17:18:00 <AnMaster> that I believe gcc would vectorize probably
17:18:06 <AnMaster> wait
17:18:10 <AnMaster> that would be stupid still
17:18:16 <AnMaster> you would be able to do
17:18:20 <ais523> mem[ptr+1]+=mem[ptr];
17:18:21 <AnMaster> mem[ptr+1] -= i;
17:18:22 <AnMaster> yeah
17:18:26 <AnMaster> err
17:18:27 <AnMaster> +=
17:18:28 <AnMaster> right
17:18:45 <AnMaster> ais523, still I believe there are cases you can gain in by using for
17:19:24 <ais523> well, you can't completely compile a program with loops into a program without in all cases
17:19:28 <AnMaster> say:
17:19:34 <AnMaster> [[-]>]
17:19:40 <AnMaster> would be memset(0)
17:19:43 <ais523> hmm... balanced loops always compile into polynomials, don't they?
17:19:46 <AnMaster> until you hit a 0
17:19:53 <ehird> ais523: bf4 compiles them to polynomials
17:19:54 <AnMaster> ais523, oh? interesting
17:19:57 <ehird> i believe
17:20:22 <ais523> I reckon the best way to make an optimiser would be to always compile the polynomials first
17:20:27 <AnMaster> ais523, true
17:20:29 <ais523> then deal with unbalanced loops and assumptions on /that/ level
17:20:44 <AnMaster> ais523, what about turning [[-]>] into a *call* to memset?
17:20:45 <ais523> the assumptions could then mostly be about which cells held zero/nonzero, and where the pointer was
17:20:57 <AnMaster> that should be very fast
17:21:14 <AnMaster> ais523, yes true
17:21:14 <ais523> AnMaster: you're thinking at a completely different level to me here
17:21:23 <AnMaster> ais523, oh? yes I am
17:21:27 <ais523> I'm trying to optimise O(n^2) down to O(n)
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17:21:33 <ais523> you're optimising O(n) into a slightly faster O(n)
17:21:36 <AnMaster> ah
17:22:02 <AnMaster> well turning balanced loops into polynomials first is indeed a good idea
17:22:18 <AnMaster> ais523, but I'm not happy with that
17:22:23 <AnMaster> so I want to go further
17:22:25 <AnMaster> ;P
17:22:37 <ais523> AnMaster: well, the usual trick is to let the C compiler do the microoptimisations
17:22:48 <ais523> after the BF compiler has done the computational class optimisations
17:23:00 <AnMaster> ais523, hah, but that requires it to understand what the program tries to do
17:23:06 <AnMaster> which might be far from clear at times
17:23:17 <AnMaster> considering the generated C wouldn't be very typical C code
17:23:32 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it would be the sort of C code that compilers are particularly good at micro-optimising
17:23:43 <ais523> something like [[-]>] into memset is trivial for a compiler like gcc
17:23:50 <ais523> which sees stuff being set to 0 in a loop
17:23:57 <AnMaster> ais523, in a while loop
17:24:03 <ais523> although, that would only work if the end was known
17:24:09 <AnMaster> so it would turn it into a strlen + a memset?
17:24:11 <AnMaster> or what?
17:24:17 <ais523> strlen + memset is slower than just looping
17:24:19 <AnMaster> since memset is faster than setting each byte
17:24:31 <AnMaster> ais523, depends, consider that memset can set 32 or 64 bits at a time
17:24:36 <ais523> the fastest way would be to do it wordwise
17:24:37 <AnMaster> while looping would just set 8 at a time
17:24:44 <ais523> using rep movdi
17:24:47 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed, which is what memset does iirc
17:24:53 <AnMaster> wordwise
17:24:56 <ais523> *rep movdb
17:25:03 <ais523> AnMaster: aha, no
17:25:05 <AnMaster> well I don't know what asm it uses
17:25:12 <ais523> memset doesn't terminate at end of string
17:25:13 <ais523> this does
17:25:17 <AnMaster> ais523, ah
17:25:25 <ais523> you want a string-set instruction, not a memory-set instruction
17:25:28 <AnMaster> that is crazy x86 string instruction things?
17:25:31 <ais523> yes
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17:25:39 <ais523> I'm pretty sure there's one that does exactly [[-]>]
17:25:44 <AnMaster> ais523, I wouldn't know, I'm writing portable code
17:25:51 <ais523> AnMaster: well, exactly
17:25:56 <ais523> this is why you let the compiler worry about the details
17:26:01 <AnMaster> ais523, hm true
17:26:02 <ais523> the C compiler
17:26:20 <AnMaster> ais523, about that rep stuff, can those be interrupted and resumed in the middle?
17:26:24 <AnMaster> I always wondered
17:26:29 <AnMaster> how it works with context switches
17:26:29 <ehird> an insane BF optimizer would compile down to machine code
17:26:44 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but you need to keep track of the registers
17:26:56 <ais523> IIRC, they put their internal state in CX or something like that
17:27:00 <AnMaster> ais523, well the OS dumps them right
17:27:09 <ais523> SI, DI, and CX, or something
17:27:16 <ais523> so if the OS dumps them, it can resume the instruction
17:27:19 <ais523> by issuing it again
17:27:20 <AnMaster> ais523, only 16 bit registers?
17:27:30 <AnMaster> that sounds like it could be an issue
17:27:34 <ais523> AnMaster: I learnt x86 asm on DOS
17:27:41 <ais523> it works with bigger registers almost certainly
17:27:45 <AnMaster> ais523, ah right
17:27:59 <AnMaster> x86 is a mess heh
17:28:01 <ais523> but I have trouble thinking about anything bigger than 16 bits as I never learnt x86 asm in protected-mode
17:28:11 <ais523> just good old-fashioned real-mode programming
17:28:17 * AnMaster adds a REX prefix
17:28:28 <AnMaster> makes it operate on 64-bit operands
17:28:40 <AnMaster> on x86_64
17:28:41 <AnMaster> that is
17:29:22 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, what about constant folding too?
17:29:34 <ais523> constant folding would happen automatically
17:29:38 <AnMaster> could be done for parts inside loops
17:29:40 <ais523> it's really the basis behind the whole thing
17:29:42 <AnMaster> even unbalanced ones
17:29:47 <AnMaster> or the start of the program
17:29:52 <AnMaster> that I think would be a good idea
17:30:16 <AnMaster> if the program starts with filing in lots of cells with initial values, you could constant fold that and put it in a static array
17:30:20 <AnMaster> in the generated program
17:30:38 <AnMaster> probably even use the static array for the first section of memory
17:30:42 <AnMaster> or such
17:30:46 <AnMaster> hm that is an issue
17:30:57 <AnMaster> we can't know the memory we get allocated are in one block
17:31:04 <AnMaster> the OS could allocate with holes
17:31:07 <ais523> wow, I just realised why UK keyboards have ¬ and that weird broken-vertical-bar char on them
17:31:21 <ais523> it's because they're the printable characters in EBCDIC that aren't in ASCII
17:31:22 <AnMaster> ais523, and to handle holes you need a more complex pointer
17:31:39 <ais523> that way, UK keyboards can type all the printable chars in ASCII, and all the printable chars in EBCDIC
17:31:58 <AnMaster> ais523, well anyway, what about the issue I mentioned?
17:32:22 <AnMaster> I would try to mmap() pages probably, but what if they are not in one single block
17:32:27 <AnMaster> what if I do get holes
17:32:27 <ais523> AnMaster: gcc-bf spends the whole first part of the program going >>>>>>>>>>>+++++++++++++>>>>>>>+++++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++++++++++++
17:32:38 <ais523> and memory doesn't have holes if you don't ask for it with holes
17:32:40 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed that could be constant folded
17:32:48 <ais523> AnMaster: it's intended to be
17:32:48 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you mean? realloc()?
17:32:54 <AnMaster> but what if it needs to be moved
17:32:59 <AnMaster> then you have issues
17:33:02 <AnMaster> for huge data sets
17:33:02 <ais523> AnMaster: there is no problem with realloc moving stuff
17:33:15 <AnMaster> ais523, yes it would be for something with a large data set
17:33:18 <ais523> AnMaster: well, if you're really crazy, use sbrk
17:33:27 <ais523> it's perfect for allocating data for Brainfuck
17:33:39 <ais523> although almost useless for most langs
17:33:43 <AnMaster> ais523, hm that depends on knowing nothing else is malloced there
17:33:47 <ais523> yep
17:33:52 <ais523> but avoiding malloc is easy enough, surely?
17:33:55 <AnMaster> say if I call putchar() how can I know it didn't just malloc() something
17:33:57 <AnMaster> internallt
17:34:00 <AnMaster> internally*
17:34:03 <AnMaster> in libc
17:34:06 <ais523> AnMaster: isn't there a guarantee somewhere about that?
17:34:14 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if there was
17:34:22 <AnMaster> ais523, don't think so, glibc allocs a lot of internal stuff I'm pretty sure
17:34:27 <AnMaster> like input buffers
17:34:40 <ais523> so does libbf
17:34:59 <AnMaster> ais523, yes indeed, so suddenly sbrk may mean it isn't at the top any more!
17:35:18 <ais523> well, you could do brk(NULL) to see if the break value had unexpectedly changed
17:35:24 <ais523> and just realloc the whole lot if it had
17:35:38 <ais523> if something's going to insist on making memory discontiguous, you're going to have to move things around to recontiguise it
17:35:40 <AnMaster> that could leave a huge unused area below
17:35:44 <AnMaster> that nothing can fill
17:36:05 <ais523> AnMaster: you're still thinking on entirely the wrong level here
17:36:17 <ais523> if you really really want massively optimised code, just refrain from syscalls
17:36:20 <AnMaster> ais523, also I'm not sure libc isn't allowed to see there is something free below sbrk and alloc stuff there
17:36:21 <AnMaster> or?
17:36:30 <ais523> that way you know that nothing's brking behind your back
17:36:34 <AnMaster> ais523, you need syscalls for input and output
17:36:39 <AnMaster> bf has that
17:36:47 <ais523> AnMaster: no you don't!
17:36:51 <AnMaster> ais523, oh?
17:36:52 <ais523> the operating system has to manage it somehow
17:36:57 <AnMaster> yes it does
17:37:20 <AnMaster> ais523, ah I got an idea, elf hack, and no idea if it works for stuff in libc
17:37:23 <AnMaster> do like valgrind
17:37:25 <AnMaster> redirect malloc
17:37:31 <AnMaster> to something that allocs from mmaped areas
17:37:41 <AnMaster> well valgrind doesn't do that bit
17:37:54 <AnMaster> anyway it probably won't work for internall malloc() calls in the libc
17:37:58 <ais523> AnMaster: it does work for stuff in libc
17:38:03 <AnMaster> ais523, oh?
17:38:13 <ais523> valgrind errors on some stuff on libc, or would do if it wasn't careful not to
17:38:19 <ais523> besides, just link libc statically
17:38:22 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't it use a direct call instead of going through the symbol table?
17:38:26 <ais523> then it definitely works
17:39:13 <AnMaster> ais523, and this would probably only work on a few *nix like linux
17:39:21 <AnMaster> and freebsd at least
17:39:26 <ais523> AnMaster: you are thinking on utterly utterly the wrong level, OK
17:39:32 <AnMaster> ais523, really?
17:39:40 <AnMaster> well I agree high level optimizations is best
17:39:44 <AnMaster> I completely agree
17:39:54 <AnMaster> but once that is done you want more speed
17:40:19 <AnMaster> ais523, it isn't enough to be fast, you will want to be fastest
17:40:24 <AnMaster> and even faster
17:40:36 <AnMaster> just to make sure no one can sneak up easily on your speed
17:41:15 <AnMaster> ais523, no?
17:41:47 <ais523> AnMaster: but any number of low-level optimisations will fail to a big optimisation at the top that improves computational order
17:41:53 <ais523> also, low-level optimisations often slow things down
17:42:12 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed you should do the big optimisations first
17:42:22 <AnMaster> and once that is done, continue with lower and lower levels
17:42:37 <AnMaster> lim speed -> perfection
17:42:46 <ais523> but things like ensuring that all the memory in a BF interp is contiguous are completely independent of other optimisations
17:42:50 <ais523> and I don't really care about them right now
17:43:01 <ais523> besides, all the BF interps in existence have never really had problems with that
17:43:17 <ais523> if you want contiguous memory, allocate a few MB worth of cells in a static array
17:43:34 <ais523> as in practice people never go off the end of that anyway, if they do, don't care about the time delay on realloc
17:43:38 <AnMaster> ais523, got a link to bf4?
17:43:44 <ais523> AnMaster: no I don't, ask ehird
17:43:49 <AnMaster> ais523, ignores...
17:43:52 <ehird> ais523: how, I have him on ignore
17:43:59 <ais523> ehird: AnMaster wants a link to bf4
17:44:07 <AnMaster> I did google yes
17:44:13 <ehird> ais523: ouch. it must suck being in an alternate universe without google for him.
17:44:19 <ehird> or the esolang wiki
17:44:25 <ais523> [17:44] <AnMaster> I did google yes
17:44:27 <ais523> [17:44] <ehird> ais523: ouch. it must suck being in an alternate universe without google for him.
17:44:28 <ais523> classic
17:44:44 <ehird> <ehird> or the esolang wiki
17:44:48 <ais523> perfect timing on that, AnMaster answering ehird's complaint before ehird complained it...
17:44:49 <ehird> today on the ais523 show we snip context
17:44:56 <ais523> ehird: it was just two lines in a row
17:45:00 <AnMaster> ais523, thanks
17:45:02 <ais523> that was post-context I snipped
17:45:12 <ehird> no, it was a sentence over two lines
17:45:30 <AnMaster> wow it isn't on the brainfuck page
17:45:33 <ais523> ehird: besides, AnMaster clearly doesn't live in a world without Google or Esolang, as he lives at least in a world with Google
17:46:05 <AnMaster> ais523, (bf|brainfuck) ?4
17:46:08 <ais523> also, according to AnMaster it isn't on http://esolangs.org/wiki/brainfuck either
17:46:13 <AnMaster> can not be found on the brainfuck esolang page
17:46:14 <ehird> it is.
17:46:44 <AnMaster> no. not with that name then
17:46:57 <AnMaster> if it got another name it would he hard to find...
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17:47:13 <ais523> ehird: there are no instances of the digit 4 anywhere on http://esolangs.org/wiki/brainfuck
17:47:21 <ais523> wait, messed up my browser
17:47:22 <ehird> ais523: and?
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17:47:27 <AnMaster> ais523, well there is, "This page has been accessed 47,617 times."
17:47:30 <AnMaster> and 1024
17:47:32 <ehird> it isn't named in the link
17:47:32 <ehird> just like bff
17:47:36 <AnMaster> and Brainfuck interpreter for the HP48gII calculator. May also work with other HP calculators.
17:47:46 <ais523> ehird: well, then why did you expect AnMaster to find it by searching Esolang
17:47:55 <AnMaster> ok then how the heck should you find it... if it badly named
17:48:00 <ehird> He could look at the link text and click ones that look relevant?
17:48:01 <ais523> you're arguing against yourself here
17:48:02 <ehird> That's how I found it.
17:48:11 <AnMaster> there isn't a "bff" either
17:48:13 <AnMaster> with that spelling
17:48:27 <ais523> ehird: that's much less reasonable than asking someone who knows the link to tell where it is
17:48:40 <ehird> Well, yes, but you could go for someone who wants to tell you,.
17:48:46 <ais523> you're coming up with a rather beware of the leopard response
17:50:24 <AnMaster> it is a lot more fun to optimize brainfuck than it is to code in it, IMO
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17:53:00 <AnMaster> ok with some googling I found this http://mozaika.com.au/oleg/brainf/
17:53:08 <AnMaster> after:
17:53:18 <AnMaster> bff4 brainfuck
17:53:28 <AnMaster> well that wasn't the name ehird told us initially
17:53:33 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
17:53:46 <AnMaster> now if he had said that it would have been simpler
17:53:50 <ais523> ehird: AnMaster says that the interp in question is actually called bff4
17:53:56 <ais523> so you even got the name you told em wrong
17:54:01 <ehird> bf4, bff4
17:54:04 <ehird> not exactly hard to make the leap?
17:54:09 <ais523> ehird: well, yes it is
17:54:14 <ehird> k
17:54:16 <AnMaster> yes, why would I try to look for an extra f?
17:54:20 <ais523> would you claim that bf and bff are the same interp?
17:54:24 <AnMaster> I mean, brain ffuck?
17:54:26 <AnMaster> or what?
17:54:28 <ehird> no, but the 4 is the main thing
17:54:55 <ais523> ehird: that's a version number... naming programs including the version number is fine, naming programs after /just/ the version number is stupid
17:55:05 <ehird> ais523: It is not a version number.
17:55:07 <ais523> unless the version number itself is something stupid like XP or Vista
17:55:22 <AnMaster> ais523, someone else made bff it says on that page
17:55:26 <ais523> ah, yes
17:55:27 <AnMaster> so it is a separate program
17:55:29 <AnMaster> but still
17:55:31 <ais523> but still
17:55:36 <AnMaster> how could I guess there was an extra f?
17:55:46 <AnMaster> I mean, it isn't in the name "brainfuck
17:55:48 <AnMaster> "
17:55:51 <AnMaster> there is one f there
17:55:53 <AnMaster> not two
17:56:11 <AnMaster> so how on earth would it be possible to guess that one should add the extra f
17:56:45 <AnMaster> why not add an extra b?
17:56:47 <AnMaster> instead
17:56:49 <ais523> ehird: <http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=brainfuck+4&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a>, Google disagrees with you on the 4 being the main thing
17:56:50 <AnMaster> or an extra 4
17:56:59 <ehird> ais523: bf{f}4
17:57:03 <ais523> if it was, a Google search for "brainfuck 4" would find what you were talking about
17:57:04 <ehird> seriously, stop bugging me.
17:57:12 <AnMaster> sure ehird, but you didn't say it at the start
17:57:16 <ehird> it's very obvious i don't feel like helping AnMaster.
17:57:20 <ais523> ehfird: why on earth would you assume people would randomly add an extra 4 to things?
17:57:33 <AnMaster> ais523, or an extra f...
17:57:38 <ehird> that wasn't a regexp.
17:57:38 <ais523> AnMaster: yes
17:57:40 <ais523> sorry
17:57:41 <AnMaster> and also just admitting the mistake would be easier
17:57:55 <ais523> ehird: well, clearly, it's a syntax error as a regexp
17:58:06 <AnMaster> also he didn't say that initially
17:58:09 <ais523> it's legal but pointless as a wildmat
17:58:26 <AnMaster> {,f}
17:58:26 <ais523> AnMaster: don't be too hard on ehird, his keyboard obviously has an invisible f key button that he pressed by mistake
17:58:31 <ais523> being invisible, he didn't realise
17:58:38 <AnMaster> ais523, oh?
17:58:39 <ais523> those Apple keyboards are strange...
17:58:42 <AnMaster> ah true
17:58:53 <ehird> k, call me back when you're talking about esolangs instead of lolling with AnMaster about me, i kind of have better things to do than being highlighted every 2 seconds
17:58:55 -!- ehird has left (?).
17:59:00 <AnMaster> ais523, so you mean he got one normal and one invisible f?
17:59:04 <ais523> presumably
17:59:11 <AnMaster> also he can't simply admit he did a mistake
17:59:11 <ais523> as he's obviously capable of typing visible fs
17:59:25 <ais523> AnMaster: actually, he seems to have admitted he was being deliberately obstructive to try to annoy you
17:59:27 * AnMaster sighs
17:59:34 <AnMaster> ais523, well true, but...
17:59:39 <ais523> which makes complaining about the resulting revenge a bit rich
18:00:18 <AnMaster> ais523, haah
18:00:20 <AnMaster> hah*
18:00:39 <AnMaster> ok the bff4 code isn't very well commented
18:00:47 <AnMaster> http://mazonka.com/brainf/bff4.c
18:01:14 <AnMaster> one helpfull thing is that -DLNR is supposed to be what makes it optimize linear loops
18:01:35 <AnMaster> so hopefully not to hard to find the relevant code that way
18:02:01 <AnMaster> if( z->linear )
18:02:01 <AnMaster> {
18:02:01 <AnMaster> int del = m[mp]/z->linear;
18:02:01 <AnMaster> for( i=0; i<z->sz; i++ ) m[mp+z->off+i]+=del*z->d[i];
18:02:01 <AnMaster> }
18:02:04 <AnMaster> that seems to be it
18:02:14 <AnMaster> it calculates if it is linear a bit before
18:02:19 <AnMaster> now wtf does that code do
18:02:20 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm too busy with other things to attempt to parse that code, I think
18:02:32 <AnMaster> ais523, a bit obfuscated isn't it
18:02:42 <ais523> meaningless variable names, not enough spaces
18:02:54 <ais523> it's slightly worse than what I write on average, which means it must be /really/ bad
18:03:13 <AnMaster> ais523, the whole file is like that
18:03:21 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
18:03:29 <AnMaster> ais523, after the includes there is *NO* comment
18:03:51 <ais523> I comment my code quite a bit normally
18:03:54 <ais523> especially the obfuscated code
18:04:03 <ais523> even the IOCCC stuff is commented, although the comments are just there to confuse people
18:04:05 <ais523> such as /\
18:04:07 <ais523> with the * on the next line
18:04:30 <AnMaster> heh
18:04:33 <AnMaster> well this is the reverse
18:04:55 <AnMaster> ais523, also bff4 seems to be an interpreter not a compiler
18:05:15 <ais523> it's basically a bytecode compiler + interpreter, I think
18:05:26 <AnMaster> ah
18:09:41 <AnMaster> ais523, hm would it be possible to optimize > or < into a constant goto cell after an unbalanced loop?
18:09:46 <AnMaster> what would be needed to be able to
18:09:48 <AnMaster> I mean like
18:09:56 <AnMaster> setting pointer to a fixed value
18:10:08 <AnMaster> not like adding or subtracting a specific value
18:10:33 <AnMaster> another thing
18:10:40 <psygnisfive> guys
18:10:41 <AnMaster> what about loops like:
18:10:44 <psygnisfive> sambuca = delicious
18:10:47 <ais523> <AnMaster> ais523, hm would it be possible to optimize > or < into a constant goto cell after an unbalanced loop? <--- that's the main thing I want to focus on
18:10:56 <AnMaster> [>.<-]
18:11:01 <AnMaster> that is balanced
18:11:06 <AnMaster> but not easily translated
18:11:09 <AnMaster> hm wait
18:11:15 <AnMaster> you could make a balanced one too
18:11:29 <AnMaster> [>+<.]
18:11:34 <AnMaster> err
18:11:35 <AnMaster> waiut
18:11:36 <ais523> [>.<-] is trivially translated
18:11:36 <AnMaster> wait*
18:11:38 <AnMaster> ,
18:11:41 <AnMaster> not .
18:11:44 <AnMaster> I typoed that
18:11:44 <ais523> it just prints a character lots of times
18:11:49 <ais523> , is more interesting
18:11:50 <AnMaster> ais523, I typoed, I meant ,
18:11:52 <AnMaster> yeah
18:12:04 <ais523> that just reads characters forever, doesn't it?
18:12:04 <AnMaster> or , that ends up affecting loop count
18:12:11 <AnMaster> but where you can still know the cell
18:12:29 <AnMaster> ais523, hm ok, so what about one where it substracts 78 from the value it read?
18:12:33 <ais523> AnMaster: things like ,[.,] probably can't be optimised any furthre
18:12:37 <ais523> *further
18:12:40 <AnMaster> that could be easily input and hit 0
18:12:42 <AnMaster> or not
18:12:46 <AnMaster> see what I mean?
18:13:20 <AnMaster> like: [, -78 ]
18:13:26 <AnMaster> in pesudo code
18:13:33 <AnMaster> then if I enter N the loop will ned
18:13:38 <AnMaster> but anything else it will continue
18:13:41 <AnMaster> yet it is balanced
18:13:50 <AnMaster> sure that is hard to optimize more
18:13:56 <AnMaster> but you could have other code
18:13:57 <AnMaster> in it
18:13:59 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:14:10 <AnMaster> that would be easy to optimize with known iteration count
18:14:20 <AnMaster> but you can no longer do anything but a while loop
18:14:31 <AnMaster> ais523, right?
18:14:35 <ais523> AnMaster: there is nothing intrinsically bad about while loops
18:14:44 <ais523> it's the number of nested loops you want to be able to keep down in a program
18:14:55 <AnMaster> ais523, true
18:15:10 <AnMaster> but still user input affecting the loop counter might be hard to handle
18:15:15 <ais523> AnMaster: no it isn't, just do a while loop
18:15:15 <AnMaster> it blocks a lot of optimizing
18:15:20 <ais523> that's what it /is/, after all
18:15:32 <ais523> it doesn't block the sort of high-level optimisations I care about, just your low-level parallelised megafors
18:15:43 <AnMaster> ais523, true, but you know what I saw recently, with gcc, a while loop used for comping CRC, was slow
18:15:46 <AnMaster> changed to a for loop
18:15:49 <AnMaster> a lot faster
18:16:08 <AnMaster> and yes object size was known at compile time in both cases
18:16:11 <ais523> AnMaster: is "a lot" a factor of 10000 or more?
18:16:15 <ais523> or more like 1.2?
18:16:26 <AnMaster> ais523, a lot being like a factor or 4 times as fast or so
18:16:27 <ais523> it's the factor-of-10000 changes I'm going for
18:16:39 <AnMaster> between 4 and 8
18:16:40 <AnMaster> or so
18:16:43 <AnMaster> iirc
18:17:16 <AnMaster> ais523, since it was run several hundred of thousands of times during a single execution however
18:17:21 <AnMaster> it did help
18:17:36 <AnMaster> it was at the top of "time spent in function" in gprof output
18:17:46 <AnMaster> before
18:17:51 <AnMaster> far from the top after
18:17:56 <AnMaster> so for that case it mattered
18:18:01 <ais523> anyway, I'd like to end this conversation, so I can concentrate on something else
18:18:05 <AnMaster> ais523, ok :)
18:18:07 <ais523> I have a massively long email to reconstruct
18:18:11 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:18:21 <AnMaster> ais523, meanwhile I will try to work on some ideas I got from this convo
18:18:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
18:18:44 <oklopol> and i will go to el shoppo
18:18:48 <AnMaster> oklopol, cya
18:19:05 <oklopol> optimizing bf again i see, i gutta read the context when i returnn
18:26:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, we had some new ideas
18:27:38 -!- Deewiant has joined.
18:27:50 -!- ineiros has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)).
18:39:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ais523: good name for the project?
18:39:05 <AnMaster> I can't think of one
18:39:13 <AnMaster> bf2c seems to be used already
18:39:17 <ais523> AnMaster: bf4
18:39:22 <AnMaster> haha
18:39:25 <ais523> with one f
18:39:36 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 704,000 for bf4. (0.17 seconds)
18:39:41 <AnMaster> not good
18:39:45 <AnMaster> want a googlable name
18:41:41 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
18:42:02 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 8 of 8 for bf4 brainfuck. (0.05 seconds)
18:42:05 <AnMaster> hm much better
18:42:16 <AnMaster> and the interpreter with the same name is crap it seems
18:42:19 <AnMaster> but still
18:43:04 <AnMaster> bfff3.14
18:43:06 <AnMaster> what about that?
18:43:36 <ais523> call it "before"
18:44:19 <AnMaster> ais523, not googlable
18:45:26 <ais523> I don't really put much stock in Google
18:46:20 <AnMaster> hm
18:48:54 <oklopol> AnMaster: tell ideas
18:49:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, read above?
18:49:48 <AnMaster> I'm busy coding now
18:49:59 <oklopol> ic
18:57:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:05:57 <AnMaster> ais523, right, before it is
19:06:24 * oerjan wonders what went into that
19:06:52 <oerjan> and will the successor be called befyve?
19:08:00 <oerjan> is this an interpreter for ordinary bf, or is there something extra?
19:08:08 <psygnisfive> oklopol
19:08:25 <oerjan> psygnisfive
19:08:28 <psygnisfive> hey
19:09:19 <oklopol> psygnisfive: glio
19:09:24 <oerjan> you broke the chain :(
19:10:02 <psygnisfive> glio?
19:10:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, not an interpreter
19:10:10 <oklopol> a bitta glio never hurt anyone
19:10:11 <psygnisfive> miz glio?
19:10:12 <AnMaster> it is a compiler
19:10:14 <AnMaster> to C
19:10:19 <AnMaster> optimizing one
19:10:24 <oklopol> i don't know who miz is
19:10:30 <ais523> oerjan: it was a very short chain...
19:10:34 <AnMaster> it will implement some new ideas that ais523 and me discussed above
19:10:42 <oerjan> ais523: killed in its infancy :(
19:10:52 <oklopol> ais523: i think oerjan extrapolated it'd be a long conversation.
19:11:04 <oklopol> but then i had to come and steal focus
19:11:15 <AnMaster> ais523, hahah at function name: before_postprocess
19:11:16 <AnMaster> :D
19:11:33 <AnMaster> or:
19:11:35 <oklopol> prepostprocess
19:11:36 <AnMaster> before_init()
19:11:41 <AnMaster> that is actually emitted
19:11:46 <oerjan> oklopol: that's preposterous
19:11:49 <AnMaster> and before_cleanup()
19:11:50 <oklopol> it's emitted now?
19:12:04 <AnMaster> "static inline void before_init(void) {",
19:12:04 <AnMaster> " cells = malloc(CHUNKSIZE * sizeof(beforecell));",
19:12:04 <AnMaster> " cellcnt = CHUNKSIZE;",
19:12:04 <AnMaster> " memset(cells, 0, cellcnt * sizeof(beforecell));",
19:12:04 <AnMaster> "}",
19:12:19 <AnMaster> I based this on the def-bf compiler I was working on
19:12:29 <AnMaster> except pikhq never finished his high level part
19:12:35 <AnMaster> so I consider the def-bf stuff dead
19:12:39 <oklopol> no one ever finishes anything
19:12:45 <oerjan> oklopol: actually the second google hit on glio is on someone who died from it :/
19:12:51 <oklopol> :D
19:13:01 <AnMaster> "static inline void before_cleanup(void) {",
19:13:01 <AnMaster> " free(cells);",
19:13:01 <AnMaster> "}"
19:13:07 <psygnisfive> anyone ever done any machine learning stuff? :T
19:14:30 <oklopol> oerjan: most hilarious death of the day, even more fun than your chain.
19:14:47 <AnMaster> wtf is glio?
19:15:01 <oerjan> apparently it was an abbreviation of glioblastoma
19:15:28 <oklopol> yeah that's what i meant
19:15:31 <AnMaster> ah
19:15:34 <AnMaster> cancer
19:15:50 <oklopol> yes, who doesn't like cancer
19:15:56 <oklopol> !! ->
19:16:08 <AnMaster> I don't
19:16:25 <oerjan> now i still wonder what oklopol meant by glio
19:17:05 <oklopol> oerjan: stop getting my sarcasm, you're ruining all the AnMaster from me.
19:17:31 <AnMaster> huh
19:17:34 <oerjan> oh i didn't see your "yeah that's what i meant"
19:19:28 <oerjan> lessee, there's a User:Glio on wikimedia
19:19:54 <AnMaster> ^bf >>,[[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++.[-]>>,]!test
19:19:55 <fungot> 116.101.115.116.
19:19:57 <oerjan> a chinese
19:20:06 <AnMaster> ^bf >>,[[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++.[-]>>,]!hm nice very nice
19:20:07 <fungot> 104.109.32.110.105.99.101.32.118.101.114.121.32.110.105.99.101.
19:20:14 <AnMaster> ^bf >>,[[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++.[-]>>,]!9
19:20:14 <fungot> 57.
19:20:38 <oerjan> oklopol: of course i was hoping you were fluent in the Glio-Oubi language
19:27:10 <AnMaster> heh
19:27:24 <AnMaster> already the not very much optimizing compiler is twice as fast as bff4
19:27:28 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
19:27:37 <AnMaster> I guess the fact that it is compiled is the cause
19:27:45 <ais523> AnMaster: wow, that's pretty good
19:27:47 <ais523> is it linearising?
19:27:49 <AnMaster> ais523, no
19:27:55 <AnMaster> just merging >>> <<< and such
19:28:05 <AnMaster> ais523, was testing on mandelbrot.b
19:28:08 <ais523> ok, probably it depends on the program you run it on then
19:28:10 <AnMaster> can pastebin it if you want
19:29:00 <AnMaster> ais523, was using gcc -march=k8 -msse3 -O3 -ftree-vectorize for both bff4 and the source my compiler generated
19:29:18 <fizzie> +[>+] should terminate when the first cell wrap-arounds; that's just some 3*256000 instructions. Well, I guess it should time-out before that, actually.
19:29:21 <AnMaster> $ gcc -Wall -Wextra -march=k8 -msse3 -O3 -ftree-vectorize -DLNR -o bff4 bff4.c
19:29:22 <AnMaster> that one
19:29:24 <ais523> AnMaster: I'd argue that your compiler is not at all faster than bff4
19:29:31 <ais523> just you're using better compiler options
19:29:35 <ais523> and a better implementatino
19:29:38 <ais523> *implementation
19:29:46 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm using the same options for both
19:30:03 <AnMaster> $ gcc -Wall -Wextra -march=k8 -msse3 -O3 -ftree-vectorize -o mandelbrot mandelbrot.c
19:30:04 <ais523> well a compiler's always going to beat the interpreter unless the interpreter manages to optimise stuff a lot
19:30:14 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed
19:30:27 <AnMaster> ais523, but this makes it very very hard to compare
19:30:33 <AnMaster> if not impossible
19:30:54 <ais523> AnMaster: how do they compare on Lost Kingdoms startup?
19:31:05 <AnMaster> ais523, hm hard to measure
19:31:09 <AnMaster> I used this:
19:31:18 <AnMaster> time ./mandelbrot
19:31:19 <AnMaster> real 0m10.572s
19:31:19 <AnMaster> user 0m9.879s
19:31:19 <AnMaster> sys 0m0.059s
19:31:23 <AnMaster> well output cut
19:31:23 <AnMaster> and
19:31:30 <fizzie> ^bf +[>+]++++++++++.
19:31:32 <AnMaster> time ./bff4 < mandelbrot.b
19:31:33 <AnMaster> real 0m20.173s
19:31:33 <AnMaster> user 0m18.722s
19:31:33 <AnMaster> sys 0m0.143s
19:31:34 <fungot> .
19:31:39 <fizzie> Seems that my timeout limits are not very strict.
19:31:57 <ais523> ^bf +[>+]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
19:32:01 <fungot> <
19:32:13 <ais523> fizzie: how do you explain that?
19:32:19 <ais523> it's executing the code after +[>+]
19:32:19 <AnMaster> ais523, waiting for gcc to compile lostkingdom
19:32:20 <AnMaster> argh
19:32:22 <ais523> which is really strange
19:32:26 <AnMaster> had to abort
19:32:28 <AnMaster> swap trashing
19:32:29 <AnMaster> hehe
19:32:33 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, I forgot about that...
19:32:36 <fizzie> ais523: Why not? +[>+] terminates when one cell wrap-arounds.
19:32:47 <AnMaster> ais523, well I removed the case stuff
19:32:49 <ais523> fizzie: no it doesn't
19:32:51 <AnMaster> since it is no longer needed
19:32:56 <ais523> it sets each cell to 1 on the entire atpe
19:32:58 <AnMaster> but it still manages to be very slow
19:32:58 <ais523> *tape
19:32:58 <fizzie> I have a 1000-cell tape which wraps, and one-byte cells.
19:33:02 <AnMaster> and swap trash
19:33:06 <ais523> fizzie: oh, the tape wraos?
19:33:08 <ais523> *wraps?
19:33:13 <AnMaster> $ wc -l LostKng.c
19:33:13 <AnMaster> 168337 LostKng.c
19:33:14 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
19:33:17 <ais523> no wonder we couldn't get it to display an out-of-tape message
19:33:18 <AnMaster> with LOTS of macros too
19:33:26 <AnMaster> so that expands quite a bit
19:34:00 <AnMaster> $ gcc -std=c99 -E -o tmp.c LostKng.c
19:34:06 <AnMaster> $ wc -l tmp.c
19:34:07 <AnMaster> 169855 tmp.c
19:34:10 <AnMaster> not as much as I feared
19:34:24 <AnMaster> just a 5.7 MB file :P
19:34:38 <fizzie> Yes, there's no infinite tape in fungot's brainfuck. Isn't a fixed-size memory quite common for brainfuck?
19:34:38 <fungot> fizzie: get. out.
19:34:44 <fizzie> fungot: Well excuse me!
19:34:45 <fungot> fizzie: let's just pretend that it's necessary :) at least i have. :) ( and i'm not sure what
19:34:50 <AnMaster> hm
19:34:57 <AnMaster> ais523, bff4 exists on lostkingdom
19:35:05 <ais523> *exits?
19:35:10 <AnMaster> ah yes
19:35:38 <AnMaster> read(0, "#!/usr/bin/bf\n\n# Name : Lost"..., 2048) = 2048
19:35:38 <AnMaster> brk(0) = 0x2263000
19:35:38 <AnMaster> brk(0x2284000) = 0x2284000
19:35:38 <AnMaster> exit_group(0) = ?
19:35:41 <AnMaster> how strange
19:36:27 <ais523> AnMaster: why did you just paste that?
19:36:32 <ais523> also, what is exit_group?
19:36:35 <AnMaster> I was stracing it
19:36:41 <AnMaster> why bff4 exits
19:36:42 <ais523> and brk seems to be acting entirely sanely there to me
19:37:02 <AnMaster> ais523: since I don't know how to feed input to a program running under gdb from a pipe
19:37:07 <AnMaster> since that is what bff4 wants
19:37:10 <AnMaster> you do like;
19:37:14 <AnMaster> ./bff4 < foo.b
19:37:19 <AnMaster> it seems
19:37:29 <ais523> AnMaster: gdb has a command-line arg for that, IIRC
19:37:37 <AnMaster> and I don't remember what
19:38:17 <ais523> I don't remember what it is either
19:39:10 <AnMaster> hm now it works
19:39:16 <AnMaster> since I removed the headers
19:39:19 <AnMaster> like #!
19:39:22 <AnMaster> oh wait
19:39:30 <AnMaster> it treats ! special right
19:39:37 <ais523> yes
19:39:42 <ais523> ! means end of program, start of input
19:39:42 <AnMaster> hm
19:39:47 <ais523> in BF programs which take them in the same stream
19:40:09 <AnMaster> well
19:40:22 <AnMaster> this means I have to paste all of lostkingdom on it's stdin
19:40:24 <AnMaster> fuck that
19:40:51 <AnMaster> I have better things to do
20:11:26 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection reset by peer).
20:11:48 <AnMaster> damn I need an integer that can also be unset
20:11:56 <AnMaster> and I can't reverse any special value
20:11:59 <AnMaster> what to do
20:12:09 <ais523> AnMaster: define a Maybe Integer
20:12:15 <AnMaster> ais523, C....
20:12:23 <ais523> although this requires you to use a programming language, like Perl with Moose or Haskell, in which they exist
20:12:27 <AnMaster> ais523, and the size is important
20:12:34 <ais523> can't you use the next size up?
20:12:34 <AnMaster> like struct size
20:12:49 <AnMaster> ais523, well no this is for tracking offset of cells within loop
20:12:53 <ais523> AnMaster: well you can't fit 32 and a fraction bits into a 32-bit variable
20:12:56 <AnMaster> like size_t offset;
20:12:59 <ais523> physically impossible
20:13:03 <AnMaster> ais523, yes :(
20:13:07 <AnMaster> err
20:13:09 <AnMaster> not size_t
20:13:11 <AnMaster> ssize_t
20:13:11 <ais523> you could have a separate one-bit variable which tracks whether it's set or not
20:13:27 <ais523> and if it's ssize_t, why not use the minimum possible value as exceptional?
20:13:32 <AnMaster> ah yes let me look at padding in struct
20:13:49 <AnMaster> ais523, but what if someone adds that many > on a 32-bit platform?
20:14:01 <ais523> AnMaster: you can only compare them one way round is the point
20:14:03 <AnMaster> and use off64_t for files
20:14:18 <ais523> ssize_t can only cover half the memory space as it is
20:14:29 <AnMaster> ais523, ah hm true
20:14:41 <AnMaster> well I guess the situation should never
20:14:42 <AnMaster> happen
20:14:47 <AnMaster> and I could document the issue
20:14:58 <ais523> sounds like you really want a 33-and-a-fraction-bit variable
20:15:15 <AnMaster> ais523, I also yes and an union to not waste spaec
20:15:16 <ais523> but the minimum value wouldn't even exist except on a 2's complement machine
20:15:16 <AnMaster> space
20:15:27 <ais523> it's equal to 0-itself, anyway, so doesn't act sanely with arithmetic
20:15:28 <AnMaster> ais523, huh?
20:15:32 <ais523> that's why it makes a good exceptional value
20:15:37 <ais523> AnMaster: the value with bit pattern 100000000000000000000000000000000
20:15:42 <AnMaster> ah yes
20:16:16 <AnMaster> that is negative 0 basically
20:16:21 <ais523> no, it isn't
20:16:25 <ais523> it's the opposite of -0
20:16:26 <AnMaster> well no true
20:16:31 <ais523> it's as far from 0 as you can get
20:16:32 <AnMaster> positive 0?
20:16:35 <ais523> in both directions
20:16:35 <AnMaster> ah
20:16:36 <AnMaster> ok
20:16:47 <ais523> rather than -0 which arithmetically works the same way as 0
20:16:52 <AnMaster> ais523, that would be FOO_MIN right?
20:16:56 <ais523> yes
20:16:57 <AnMaster> assuming there is one for ssize_t
20:17:01 * AnMaster looks
20:17:27 <AnMaster> hm there is not
20:17:28 <AnMaster> SSIZE_MAX
20:17:32 <AnMaster> but no MIN
20:17:35 <AnMaster> very strange
20:17:37 <ais523> it's -SSIZE_MAX-1
20:17:44 <ais523> it has to be defined like that
20:17:55 <AnMaster> on 2 complement
20:17:56 <ais523> say, SHORT_MIN can't actually be -32768
20:18:01 <ais523> it has to be -32767-1
20:18:27 <ais523> because - is an operator, and 32768 needn't neccessarily fit in an int
20:18:29 <AnMaster> ais523, a grep shows SHORT_MIN isn't defined either
20:18:32 <AnMaster> in any system header
20:18:37 <ais523> SHRT_MIN
20:18:39 <ais523> probably
20:18:44 <ais523> some stupid abbreviation from decades ago
20:18:46 <AnMaster> ah yes
20:18:51 <AnMaster> ais523, well it is short
20:18:53 <AnMaster> so I like it
20:19:00 <AnMaster> :P
20:19:03 <ais523> is that an attempt at a joke?
20:19:06 <AnMaster> also SSIZE_MIN doesn't exist
20:19:14 <AnMaster> ais523, yes a *short* form of *short*
20:19:26 <AnMaster> was the joke that bad?
20:19:41 <ais523> /usr/include/limits.h:# define LONG_MIN(-LONG_MAX - 1L)
20:19:43 <ais523> AnMaster: yes
20:20:04 <ais523> although my headers define SHORT_MIN as -32768 directly, because they know they're for a 32-bit system
20:20:18 <ais523> the same thing applies to all integer sizes, just I can't remember the relevant power of 2
20:20:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: it was a reasonably good joke until you explained it :D
20:20:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I had to for ais523
20:20:57 <ais523> AnMaster: actually, I got it
20:21:06 <ais523> just wasn't sure if you were joking deliberately or not
20:21:26 <AnMaster> now I am normally THAT bad at jokes really?
20:21:27 <AnMaster> :(
20:21:33 <AnMaster> anyway
20:21:37 <oerjan> so, why isn't it LONG_MAXIMUM?
20:21:44 <AnMaster> SSIZE_MIN isn't defined
20:21:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, :)
20:21:53 <ais523> AnMaster: it's -SSIZE_MAX-1
20:21:57 <ais523> if SSIZE_MAX is defined
20:22:01 <AnMaster> ais523, on 2 complement at least
20:22:01 <ais523> and you're on a two's complement system
20:22:06 <ais523> which given your stupid optimisation you are
20:22:17 <AnMaster> ais523, but how would i know I am?
20:22:17 <AnMaster> ais523, err, what?
20:22:21 <AnMaster> I'm just trying to count index
20:22:24 <ais523> hmm... why not detect the representation at compile-time
20:22:33 <ais523> and use SSIZE_MIN as your exceptional value on 2's complement
20:22:35 <AnMaster> ais523, as in "this is offset two from start of loop"
20:22:38 <ais523> and -0 on 1's complement
20:22:47 <ais523> AnMaster: why not use unsigned size_t, the?
20:22:49 <ais523> *then?
20:23:02 <AnMaster> ais523, [>-<+]
20:23:02 <AnMaster> or
20:23:03 <ais523> also, rely on the fact that the loop can't possibly take up all of memory due to the final ]
20:23:05 <AnMaster> ais523, [<->+]
20:23:07 <AnMaster> well
20:23:10 <AnMaster> it can go either way
20:23:11 <ais523> thus you can safely use SIZE_MAX as your exceptional value
20:23:23 <ais523> AnMaster: measure offset from the start of the program instead, then
20:23:24 <AnMaster> haha ok
20:23:25 <ais523> and do a subtraction
20:23:41 <ais523> (there's also the fact that the compiler itself has to be in memory somewhere, but that isn't as funny)
20:23:43 <AnMaster> err? what?
20:23:50 <AnMaster> anyway: not easy if there is an unbalanced loop
20:23:54 <ais523> AnMaster: instead of taking the offset from one place to another
20:23:57 <AnMaster> then I can't know tape offset
20:24:03 <ais523> oh, tape offset
20:24:06 <AnMaster> yes
20:24:10 <AnMaster> that was what I was doing
20:24:11 <ais523> I thought you meant offset in program
20:24:21 <AnMaster> the stuff have already been mangled a bit by this point
20:24:26 <AnMaster> however I'm unsure about order
20:24:48 <AnMaster> that is the order that I should do various reductions
20:25:19 <AnMaster> should I try to handle >><< first, then the tape offset, then [-]
20:25:22 <AnMaster> or some other order?
20:25:35 <AnMaster> it doesn't seem trivial to combine them
20:25:57 <AnMaster> but I guess it could work
20:26:03 <AnMaster> except [-] shouldn't be done first
20:26:08 <AnMaster> since that wouldn't catch
20:26:15 <AnMaster> [>+<->-<]
20:26:18 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:26:28 <AnMaster> which the tape offset would manage to turn into [-]
20:26:35 <AnMaster> which then could be turned into set 0
20:26:44 <AnMaster> or should I do multiple passes with each optimizer?
20:26:51 <AnMaster> ais523, :)
20:27:04 <ais523> AnMaster: C-INTERCAL does multiple passes
20:27:04 <AnMaster> I want to catch all cases I can catch
20:27:07 <ais523> until nothing more is optimised
20:27:09 <ais523> that's probably the best way
20:27:12 <AnMaster> ais523, ah
20:27:28 <AnMaster> ais523, I already avoid multiple passes with >><< reduction
20:27:35 <AnMaster> by stepping one step backwards
20:27:43 <AnMaster> so I can catch:
20:27:45 <AnMaster> --<>+
20:27:48 <AnMaster> to turn it into -
20:28:05 <AnMaster> without that I would get: 2- 1+
20:28:17 <AnMaster> also brb making some food
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20:38:47 <warrie> Hi, #math.
20:39:28 <oerjan> BZZT, WRONG
20:39:37 <warrie> How dare you disturb my hallucinations.
20:39:48 <warrie> Let's try this again.
20:39:50 <warrie> Hi, #math.
20:40:12 <ais523> warrie: we're now debating whether or not 3=4
20:40:16 -!- Deewiant has quit ("Viivan loppu.").
20:40:16 <ais523> ehird seems to think it is, for some reason
20:40:20 <oerjan> hi warrie, did you know your nick is a prime in base 256?
20:40:24 <warrie> No we're not.
20:40:29 <ais523> also, we're debating whether 4 increased by 1 is 5
20:40:30 <warrie> Nope. That's cool.
20:40:37 * oerjan might be lying
20:40:43 -!- Deewiant has joined.
20:40:43 <oerjan> haven't checked yet :D
20:40:57 <ais523> oerjan: "warrie" is even in base 256
20:41:04 <oerjan> no way
20:41:06 <ais523> unless you use ASCII
20:41:12 <oerjan> 96+5 is odd
20:41:15 <ais523> going by the hex 0-9a-f thing but extended
20:41:20 <ais523> then you get a, c, e as even
20:41:23 <oerjan> of course i'm using ascii
20:41:28 <ais523> ah, ok
20:42:19 <warrie> The derivative of |x| with respect to x is |x| divided by x, right?
20:42:42 <ais523> yes, that's one way to put it
20:42:52 <ais523> it's undefined at 0, though, rather than infinite
20:42:54 <warrie> Still true in the complex numbers and all?
20:43:00 <ais523> although whether this makes a difference depends on how pedantic you are
20:43:04 <warrie> |0|/0 is not very infinite.
20:43:15 <ais523> warrie: well, it's a NaN
20:43:34 <ais523> arguably that's decent for an undefined derivative
20:43:35 <oerjan> darn it's divisible by 5
20:43:41 <AnMaster> back
20:44:04 <warrie> I'll do the Chain Rule Test.
20:44:57 <oerjan> warrie: |x| is surely not analytic so complexes are not nice
20:45:20 <AnMaster> ais523, ah I worked it out
20:45:26 <AnMaster> I need to track offset from what anyway
20:45:38 <AnMaster> so that one is NULL or a node pointer
20:45:45 <AnMaster> I'm not sure how sane this is...
20:47:16 <warrie> -i = |i|/i = d|ix|/dx = d|ix|/d(ix)*d(ix)/x = |ix|/(ix) * i = |x|/x... yeah, I forgot that you can't differentiate |x| over the complex numbers.
20:47:45 <oerjan> warrie: you might check it in the x direction
20:48:21 * warrie shrugs
20:48:24 <oerjan> sqrt(x^2+y^2)
20:48:38 <warrie> I'll just use "undefined".
20:49:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about my nick?
20:52:08 <ais523> gah, this is annoying: I found an interesting obfuscated quine on a webpage, but it doesn't give the program, just an example of its output
20:53:06 <warrie> I hate it when you know a quine's output but not its source code.
20:53:10 <ais523> yep
20:53:27 <AnMaster> hm
20:53:28 <AnMaster> in
20:53:31 <AnMaster> in C*
20:53:49 <AnMaster> is using memset(foo, 0, sizeof(foo_t));
20:53:51 -!- Deewiant has quit ("Viivan loppu.").
20:53:58 <AnMaster> where foo foo_t *foo;
20:54:03 <AnMaster> and foo_t is a struct
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20:54:13 <AnMaster> a safe way to ensure are pointers in said struct are all NULL?
20:54:16 <warrie> What is an obfuscated quine, by the way?
20:54:22 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
20:54:27 <fizzie> Of course not, since all-bits-zero is not necessarily NULL.
20:54:46 <fizzie> Not that people wouldn't do that sort of stuff anyway.
20:54:52 <ais523> warrie: something which isn't obviously a quine
20:54:57 <ais523> although this one's just a meaning-quine
20:55:05 <ais523> in that it outputs a program that does the same thing as it
20:55:09 <ais523> but isn't necessarily the same
20:55:12 <ais523> several programs, in fact
20:55:40 <AnMaster> yes
20:55:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: 4714790940847662450
20:55:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, is that my nick?
20:55:54 <AnMaster> well it is even so...
20:55:56 <oerjan> yes
20:56:07 <oerjan> and divisible by 5 that too
20:56:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, and 10
20:56:17 <AnMaster> also how do you calculate it?
20:56:31 <AnMaster> like befunge fingerprints?
20:56:37 <AnMaster> as in 0xabcdef
20:56:41 <AnMaster> so each
20:56:43 <AnMaster> ab cd ef
20:56:46 <AnMaster> maps to a char
20:56:47 <AnMaster> or
20:56:50 <AnMaster> some other way?
20:56:56 <oerjan> i used haskell: readInt 256 (const True) (fromEnum) "AnMaster"
20:57:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, well that doesn't answer the question
20:57:12 <oerjan> (requires Numeric module)
20:57:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is the mathematical mapping?
20:57:36 <AnMaster> how do you parse it
20:57:47 <AnMaster> you just pointed at a black box
20:57:50 <AnMaster> and said "I use that"
20:57:51 <oerjan> i guess that befunge thing is the same
20:57:56 <AnMaster> it didn't answer the *how*
20:58:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is:
20:58:18 <AnMaster> while read char {
20:58:26 <AnMaster> bitshift result up by 8;
20:58:34 <AnMaster> add ascii value of char;
20:58:34 <AnMaster> }
20:58:39 <AnMaster> in pseudo code
20:58:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, is that how you do it?
20:58:58 <oerjan> that should be equivalent yes
20:59:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, so CFUN is?
20:59:13 <oerjan> except readInt uses an actual multiplication by 256
20:59:31 <oerjan> (since it is not restricted to powers of 2)
20:59:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, it should be 0x4346554e
20:59:36 <AnMaster> btw
20:59:37 <AnMaster> CFUN
20:59:41 <AnMaster> if it is the same way
20:59:42 <fizzie> "fizzie" is 112603212441957 = 3*1747*20897*1028141. I'm "almost prime", for some values of "almost".
21:00:06 <AnMaster> $ factor 112603212441957
21:00:06 <AnMaster> 112603212441957: 3 1747 20897 1028141
21:00:09 <AnMaster> well ok
21:00:12 <AnMaster> almost I guess
21:00:19 <AnMaster> <oerjan> except readInt uses an actual multiplication by 256
21:00:19 <AnMaster> <oerjan> (since it is not restricted to powers of 2)
21:00:26 <AnMaster> that is odd, doesn't ghc optimize?
21:00:34 <ais523> fizzie: so what is the value of "almost"?
21:00:45 <ais523> AnMaster: Int and Integer are different types in Haskell
21:00:50 <fizzie> ais523: In this case, "not really, but sorta".
21:00:54 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's 0x416e4d6173746572
21:01:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, CFUN?
21:01:10 <AnMaster> no then you use some totally different way
21:01:11 <oerjan> "AnMaster"
21:01:15 <AnMaster> ah
21:01:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, and what is CFUN in your system
21:01:24 <AnMaster> that string
21:01:30 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> oerjan, so CFUN is?
21:01:32 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> oerjan, it should be 0x4346554e
21:01:40 <AnMaster> [cut]
21:01:43 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: it's 0x416e4d6173746572
21:01:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, doesn't make sense does it?
21:02:20 <oerjan> that's correct
21:02:22 <ais523> AnMaster: that string oerjan pasted is "AnMaster", I think
21:02:27 <ais523> wait, no
21:02:43 <ais523> that 72 at the end looks wrong
21:02:44 <AnMaster> I do have a convert the other way for 32-bit routine somewhere around here
21:02:49 <ais523> oh, ofc, there are more than 16 letters in the alphabet
21:02:53 <ais523> so yes, probably AnMaster
21:02:57 <AnMaster> ah
21:03:00 <AnMaster> well
21:03:17 <AnMaster> fungeCell fprint = ImplementedFingerprints[i].fprint;
21:03:17 <AnMaster> char fprintname[5] = { (char)(fprint >> 24), (char)(fprint >> 16),
21:03:17 <AnMaster> (char)(fprint >> 8), (char)fprint, '\0'};
21:03:18 <AnMaster> :P
21:03:28 <AnMaster> that very much depends on it being max 32-bit
21:03:32 <AnMaster> and all printable chars
21:04:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: i thought by CFUN you meant some technical abbreviation meaning "fingerprint notation"
21:04:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, no it is the handprint of cfunge
21:04:20 <AnMaster> that is: interpreter ID
21:04:23 <fizzie> perl -e 'use bignum; $x = 256*$x + ord($_) foreach split //, "fizzie"; print $x, "\n";'
21:04:31 <AnMaster> with some type punning it should be faster
21:04:31 <fizzie> The perly thing is less pretty than Haskell. Surprise!
21:04:36 <AnMaster> to just store it as an integer
21:04:41 <AnMaster> and read it as chars
21:04:42 <AnMaster> however
21:04:46 <AnMaster> that isn't very safe
21:04:53 <AnMaster> from a C standard perspective
21:04:59 <AnMaster> I try to avoid such cases
21:05:02 <ais523> also, I've been writing a lot of Prolog recently
21:05:04 <AnMaster> I assume strict aliasing rules
21:05:09 <ais523> and decided that Prolog is really pretty
21:05:17 <ais523> and at least as reflective as Smalltalk
21:05:20 <AnMaster> except in 3 places: FPDP, FPSP and 3DSP
21:05:39 <AnMaster> ais523, heh I should probably try to learn prolog
21:05:45 <AnMaster> got a link for any good online resource?
21:05:57 <ais523> AnMaster: I learnt it from paper books originally
21:06:02 <ais523> so no, unfortunately
21:06:14 <AnMaster> oh well
21:06:22 <ais523> there probably are some
21:06:26 <ais523> but Prolog is... different
21:06:28 <AnMaster> yeah
21:06:32 <AnMaster> hm yes?
21:06:35 <ais523> and many sources for it start by trying to compare it to something
21:06:44 <AnMaster> ais523, I have seen backtracking done in scheme
21:06:46 <AnMaster> it wasn't pretty
21:06:49 <ais523> which I think is a bad way to learn it, but how else could you start?
21:06:49 <AnMaster> or easy to follow
21:07:04 <AnMaster> and it abused both macros and call/cc
21:07:16 <ais523> abusing call/cc is an obvious way to do backtracking
21:07:23 <AnMaster> ais523, well yes
21:07:42 <AnMaster> In fact I find call/cc abusive for anything, yes I see how it is useful
21:07:46 <AnMaster> but it is mindbending
21:08:09 <AnMaster> and I can write perfectly fine and working scheme programs without either macros or call/cc
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21:08:19 <AnMaster> a lot more typing though
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21:10:14 <oerjan> backtracking is a monad, and all monads can be implemented with call/cc, i hear
21:10:46 <ais523> oerjan: I had a discussion with a really theoretical computer scientist once
21:10:49 <oerjan> (+ some state)
21:11:02 <ais523> I asked whether backtracking was a monad, and he said it couldn't be because that obviously would fail on infinitely large data sets
21:11:09 <ais523> but I was too confused to ask him to elaborate on that
21:11:10 <fizzie> I think SICP has one chapter about their amb-eval thing, which implements Scheme with a "(amb x y z)" special form, which will evaluate to the "correct" value, backtracking whenever it fails (hits (amb) with no choices).
21:12:47 <fizzie> Well, subchapter, anyway. It's there where they start with the metacircular evaluator, then try lazy evaluation with it, then the nondeterministic amb thing, and finally some logic programmingsies.
21:16:57 <oerjan> ais523: maybe he was confused about something like that amb which only takes a finite number of arguments...
21:17:11 <oerjan> but you can obviously get around that with recursion
21:18:57 <oerjan> and backtracking _does_ fail on infinitely large data sets, if by fail you mean "never gets to the end"
21:20:18 <jayCampbell> i have a brainfuck question
21:20:23 <ais523> yes?
21:20:27 <jayCampbell> elsif command == '[' and tape[thread[pointer]] == 0
21:20:43 <ais523> that isn't exactly a question...
21:21:02 <jayCampbell> does the matching ] brace do a test as well?
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21:21:19 <jayCampbell> brainfuck spec on esowiki says no, but one of the derivatives did
21:21:20 -!- Deewiant has joined.
21:21:29 <jayCampbell> lost kingdom runs without a check on ]
21:21:30 <ais523> jayCampbell: it doesn't matter normally
21:21:39 <ais523> because either ] jumps back to [, which does the test
21:21:43 <ais523> or ] does the test itself
21:21:53 <ais523> thus specs generally say either
21:22:02 <jayCampbell> awesome
21:22:17 <ais523> one big advantage of testing at both ends is it then doesn't matter which side of the [] you jump back to, but that's an implementation detail that rarely comes up
21:22:31 <ais523> basically, it doesn't matter unless you're implementing, in which case you can choose either
21:22:48 <ais523> implementations in most programming languages test just at the [ because that fits the semantics of while loops
21:23:01 <ais523> but if you're implementing BF in an esolang, that's often slower if you have no while-loop-equivalent
21:23:06 <jayCampbell> so i built a weave interpreter (prefork, individual and shared tapes) that does brainfork runtime threading and pbrain subroutines
21:23:39 <AnMaster> ais523, actually I remember testing once at entry and after that I tested if I should jump back at the end
21:23:48 <AnMaster> and then jumped to the instruction after the matching [
21:23:52 <AnMaster> that was in bashfuck
21:23:53 <AnMaster> iirc
21:24:08 <ais523> AnMaster: there are a huge number of ways to do it, I think
21:24:33 <AnMaster> ais523, in before I just emit a while loop currently
21:24:46 <AnMaster> in the future I will emit for loops for balanced pure loops
21:24:50 <AnMaster> where pure == no IO
21:25:00 <AnMaster> yes it doesn't match pure as in pure functional
21:25:10 <AnMaster> but it was the best word I managed to come up with
21:25:22 <AnMaster> ais523, of course I plan to optimize it even more later on
21:25:38 <AnMaster> but currently I haven't managed to understand exactly how that would be done
21:25:52 <AnMaster> also it will to for when io isn't on iteration counter cell
21:25:54 <AnMaster> and balanced
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21:29:32 <AnMaster> ais523,
21:29:38 <AnMaster> currently I have these flags
21:29:56 <AnMaster> balanced, noinput, noputput, iter_noinput
21:30:02 <fizzie> fungot's brainfuck turns [ into bytecode "jump if zero" and ] into "jump if nonzero", with jump targets being one past matching pair.
21:30:03 <fungot> fizzie: xpdf really should allow searching with regexps, ' fnord
21:30:43 <AnMaster> bool balanced, noinput, nooutput, iter_noinput;
21:30:43 <AnMaster> balanced = noinput = nooutput = iter_noinput = false;
21:30:47 <AnMaster> is that bad coding style? :D
21:31:46 <ais523> AnMaster: not IMO
21:31:57 <AnMaster> ais523, hehe
21:32:00 <AnMaster> well I guess not
21:32:05 <ais523> although on an embedded system, you could save 3 bytes of memory by making them bitfields in a struct
21:32:26 <ais523> and it'll be faster that way on most such systems as they have bit-test instructions, they can handle bits faster than entire ints
21:32:32 <ais523> OTOH, most RL processors will prefer ints
21:34:31 <AnMaster> ais523, they are in a struct
21:34:46 <AnMaster> just I need to track them in the function
21:34:52 <AnMaster> where I work on loops
21:34:58 <AnMaster> later I put it in the struct
21:35:00 <AnMaster> also I typoed
21:35:03 <AnMaster> it should have been:
21:35:11 <AnMaster> ssize_t balance = 0;
21:35:11 <AnMaster> bool noinput, nooutput, iter_noinput;
21:35:11 <AnMaster> noinput = nooutput = iter_noinput = true;
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21:53:06 <ehird> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/decimal-counter-uncommented.pfk
21:53:08 <ehird> pgimeno is WIN
21:53:17 <pgimeno> hehe
21:53:50 <pgimeno> I liked the idea of "OCRing"
21:54:06 <AnMaster> pgimeno, hm?
21:54:24 <ehird> how does it OCR so quickly?
21:54:44 <pgimeno> I found a bit pattern that worked for all numbers
21:54:48 <pgimeno> see the commented version
21:54:56 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/decimal-counter.pfk
21:55:03 <ehird> haha, that's great
21:55:14 <pgimeno> chained IFs except for distinguishing 0 from blank
21:55:16 <ehird> i really like the logistical constraints paintfuck givse
21:55:21 <ehird> your output IS your memory, it's just such a nice idea
21:55:49 <ais523> someone should make a version of PaintFuck where the source code is stored on the 2D tape, too
21:55:55 <ais523> and is self-modifying
21:55:55 <ehird> ais523: heh
21:56:40 <pgimeno> it's nice as it is
21:56:52 <ehird> pgimeno: wht happens when it reaches its own start?
21:56:53 <pgimeno> fixed a repeated comment in the commented version, reload
21:56:55 <ehird> does it just implode?
21:57:02 <jayCampbell> weave.rb reflective via braintwist's X swapper now
21:57:06 <ehird> it'd be infeasable to wait that long ofc :P
21:57:11 <pgimeno> ehird: dunno, try a smaller grid, it's designed for infinite grid
21:58:51 <ehird> yep
21:58:53 <ehird> ti messes up
21:59:04 <ehird> well
21:59:09 <pgimeno> it doesn't wrap
21:59:11 <ehird> it starts counting the wrong digit
21:59:16 <ehird> while making up its own digits :P
21:59:18 <pgimeno> so it works on infinite grid
21:59:22 <ehird> yes
21:59:45 <pgimeno> yes, it increments by knowing which bits to change, if the number is not the expected it breaks
21:59:53 <ehird> yeah
21:59:56 <pgimeno> gtg
22:00:00 <ehird> bye
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22:02:24 -!- ehird has joined.
22:02:29 <ehird> hey ok
22:02:31 <ehird> ok
22:02:33 <ehird> where is oklopol
22:02:37 -!- ehird has left (?).
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22:06:07 <AnMaster> * oklopol has quit (Connection reset by peer)
22:06:13 <AnMaster> not that you will see it anyway
22:09:13 <AnMaster> ais523, there?
22:09:18 <ais523> no
22:09:19 <AnMaster> see /msg
22:09:23 <ais523> well, maybe
22:09:27 <ais523> I didn't get a /msg from you
22:09:39 <ais523> oh, you warn me about /msg /before/ you say it?
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22:19:20 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I do
22:19:50 <ais523> why?
22:20:04 <ais523> just interested
22:24:22 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:24:54 <AnMaster> ais523, why not?
22:25:11 <ais523> because it spams the rest of the channel for no obvious reason
22:25:17 <AnMaster> hm ok
22:25:18 <AnMaster> good reason
22:25:25 <ais523> if something's the sort of private thing that goes in /msg, why tell everyone else about it?
22:26:03 <AnMaster> true
22:26:06 <AnMaster> it was just spamming
22:26:09 <AnMaster> spammy*
22:26:14 <AnMaster> and didn't want to open pastebin
22:26:20 <oklopol> why refer to the past just as i join.
22:26:29 <oklopol> now i have to open logz
22:26:52 <ais523> oklopol: we were discussing why AnMaster warns people they're about to get a /msg before e /msgs them
22:26:52 <AnMaster> ais523, oh also how would you transfer a balanced loop to a polynom?
22:27:03 <ais523> AnMaster: using algebra
22:27:09 <ais523> the balanced loop runs the number of times of the first arg
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22:27:25 <ais523> so you take the first arg, and multiply it by all increments inside the loop
22:27:43 <ais523> so [->+<] is tape[0] times tape[1]++ or tape[1]+=tape[0]
22:27:45 <AnMaster> polynoms, isn't that 4 + 2a + 1b^2 + 3c^3 = 0
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22:27:48 <ais523> AnMaster: yes
22:27:51 <AnMaster> ais523, right
22:28:08 <ais523> so it goes from +1 to +x, effectively
22:28:14 <ais523> with another nested loop, it can be +x^2
22:28:16 <AnMaster> ais523, that require balanced "no-io" loops
22:28:20 <ais523> yes
22:28:26 <AnMaster> right
22:28:57 <oklopol> he probably warns you so you can say no if you're naked and don't want to see or something, kinda like a doorbell.
22:29:04 <oklopol> *want him to
22:29:12 <oklopol> dunno, just a guess
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22:29:32 <ais523> oklopol: /msg doesn't work like that, though, does it?
22:29:32 <AnMaster> oklopol, err, irc is text only
22:29:40 <ais523> more to the point, it's the other way round
22:29:49 <AnMaster> also /msg is just the same as channel messages
22:30:04 <AnMaster> PRIVMSG #channel
22:30:06 <AnMaster> PRIVMSG nick
22:30:07 <ais523> I suppose that if AnMaster warned me that he was about to send me an ASCII art goatse, a warning would give me time to ignore him
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22:30:09 <AnMaster> no difference
22:30:09 <oklopol> ais523: good point
22:30:12 <ais523> but why would he do that?
22:30:14 <oklopol> AnMaster: bad point
22:30:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, ?
22:30:31 <AnMaster> they are both the same on protocol level
22:30:32 <oklopol> AnMaster: as opposed to ais523's
22:30:52 <ais523> AnMaster: correct but not very relevant point, I think oklopol meant
22:30:57 <AnMaster> >> :ais523!n=ais523@eso-std.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :+AnMaster: correct but not very relevant point, I think oklopol meant
22:31:00 <oklopol> what i meant is
22:31:06 <AnMaster> freenode adds the +
22:31:21 <oklopol> what ais523 said i didn't think about, what AnMaster said was a trivial fact i didn't consider worth mentioning
22:31:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, ah
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22:32:09 <oklopol> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
22:32:16 <oklopol> hi Corun
22:32:24 <Corun> MOOOEEEEEEEEP
22:32:28 <oklopol> :DDD
22:32:35 <oklopol> yes i see you're in a goody moody!
22:33:29 <oklopol> actually... really had nothing to do with triviality, it's just what AnMaster said escaped the analogy, making it kinda pointless as what i said was just a joke
22:33:49 <oklopol> while ais523 attacked the analogy, which is relevant even if it's a joke
22:33:52 <AnMaster> well true
22:34:29 * AnMaster ponders referring to the future just as oklopol will part
22:34:39 <ais523> AnMaster: that's deep
22:34:43 <oklopol> hehe
22:34:48 <AnMaster> that is the opposite of talking about the past forcing you to read logs
22:34:48 <oklopol> wait
22:35:00 <oklopol> just as i part or just before it
22:35:06 <oklopol> i'm really slow today...
22:35:14 <oklopol> ah
22:35:15 <oklopol> ofc
22:35:20 <oklopol> just as i'm about to leave
22:35:21 <oklopol> you say
22:35:42 <oklopol> "ais523, so wanna talk about this interesting thing?", and ais523 responds, umm, "yes"
22:35:47 <oklopol> that's it raelly
22:35:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, just before
22:35:58 <oklopol> *ruylla
22:36:05 <oklopol> yes i raelized
22:36:07 <oklopol> ...
22:36:14 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes or maybe about what we will say
22:36:17 <oklopol> *roalezud
22:36:17 <AnMaster> in some detail
22:36:26 <AnMaster> like. "will you mean that a == b"?
22:36:30 <AnMaster> err
22:36:31 <AnMaster> whatever
22:36:38 <oklopol> well actually you'd have to refer to it, that'd be more complicated
22:36:50 <oklopol> yeah
22:36:53 <oklopol> in detail, that's the point
22:37:06 <oklopol> fascinating issues, these
22:37:33 <ais523> oklopol: what's with your typo corrections?
22:37:41 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, why not?
22:37:41 <AnMaster> <ais523> because it spams the rest of the channel for no obvious reason
22:37:41 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> hm ok
22:37:41 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> good reason
22:37:47 <AnMaster> make that future tense
22:37:50 <AnMaster> or whatever the word is
22:38:10 <ais523> AnMaster: that would somehow connect oklopol around into a loop, though, wouldn't it?
22:38:21 <AnMaster> ais523, well just as an example
22:38:47 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, why will you not?
22:39:00 <ais523> ?
22:39:04 <AnMaster> <ais523> because it will spam the rest of the channel for no (currently) obvious reason
22:39:08 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> hm ok
22:39:14 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> will be good reason
22:39:17 <ais523> ah
22:39:19 <ais523> um...
22:39:20 <AnMaster> ais523, just tried to make it future
22:39:22 <ais523> that's ridiculous
22:39:23 <AnMaster> didn't work
22:39:25 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah
22:39:30 <AnMaster> that doesn't work for that example
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22:39:43 <oklopol> ais523: my typo corrections got tired of having to exist so often.
22:39:49 <oklopol> so they committed suicide.
22:39:55 <ais523> in that case, probably using the present would be more idiomatic even if you're talking about the future
22:40:23 <ais523> "why won't you?" "because it will spam the rest of the channel" "hmm... ok; that's a good reason"
22:40:28 <ais523> but the last there is true present
22:40:33 <GreaseMonkey> why correct when you can type with your eyes ckised?
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22:40:51 <ais523> let me try that
22:41:02 <oklopol> i never look at my fingers
22:41:11 <ais523> why cprrecy wjem ypi cam type with your ues c;psed?
22:41:16 <GreaseMonkey> it's a fun thing to try but not with a lump in your eye >_> <-- did it
22:41:23 <ais523> wow, the result of that actually came out readable
22:41:36 <ais523> I even got 3 words in a row right
22:41:51 <ais523> took me a few seconds to find home row, then I typed it all quite quickly
22:41:51 <GreaseMonkey> occasionally it goes completely awol
22:42:19 <GreaseMonkey> enjoy coca cola. but enjot brainfuck even more.
22:42:23 <oklopol> if you use a sensible system, there's no difference whether they're open or not
22:42:29 <GreaseMonkey> anyways...
22:42:38 <AnMaster> hah
22:42:47 <AnMaster> ais523, ok
22:46:25 <AnMaster> ais523, exactly how were you typing?
22:46:29 <AnMaster> to be or not to be
22:46:35 <AnMaster> if it was closed eyes
22:46:37 <ais523> AnMaster: with my eyes shut
22:46:38 <AnMaster> that worked perfectly
22:46:44 <AnMaster> thisworks ok
22:46:47 <AnMaster> well almost
22:46:49 <AnMaster> heh
22:46:53 * AnMaster tries again, ok?
22:46:58 <ais523> even using the bumps on f and j to find the home row
22:46:59 <AnMaster> ais523, that wasn't hard
22:47:30 <ais523> one of the garbles was because I forgot the bump was on j not h, normally I hover my fingers over f and h because I rarely type ;
22:49:34 <oklopol> i don't make any more mistakes with my eyes closed, i would never click enter before checking i typed it right though
22:49:54 <AnMaster> ais523, err
22:49:59 <AnMaster> I don't need that
22:50:23 <AnMaster> I know the keyboard well enough
22:54:28 <AnMaster> as soon as I find space, shit or enter
22:55:16 * AnMaster could probably use "das keyboard" if only it had Swedish keyboard layout
22:55:19 <AnMaster> that is same size of enter
22:55:54 <oklopol> oh
22:55:57 <oklopol> "shift"
22:56:16 <oklopol> "shit" doesn't sound very AnMastery.
22:56:38 <oklopol> i, on the other hand, can find shit pretty well on my keyboard
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22:57:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, ah typoed
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22:58:09 <AnMaster> well the keyboard does in cleaning
22:59:34 <oklopol> i recently found a keyboard on teh nets that had the keys in straight columns instead of diagonally randomized
22:59:45 <oklopol> but that was costy, and i have a laptop
22:59:55 <oklopol> but that might be pretty awesome
23:01:59 <MizardX> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p333662665.txt Paintfuck decimal counter :)
23:02:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm
23:03:02 <AnMaster> MizardX, didn't someone else here also make one
23:03:06 <AnMaster> pgimeno, iirc?
23:03:13 <MizardX> Just saw
23:03:26 <AnMaster> MizardX, why did you want to make a decimal counter?
23:04:10 <MizardX> I saw a few hours ago that someone mentioned it. Thought it could be fun for a first paintfuck program. :)
23:04:59 <fizzie> That reminds me of a telemarketer that called my wife and tried to sell some magazine. When she said "no", the telemarketer said she needs to justify why she didn't want to order it. The implication was that if the reasons aren't good enough, she doesn't get to not order it.
23:05:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, err that wouldn't be legal
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23:10:43 <oklopol> fizzie: well what happened, were the reasons good enough?
23:11:30 <oklopol> MizardX: haha that's pretty great
23:12:34 <AnMaster> ais523, err an issue
23:12:41 <AnMaster> about that "until no changes"
23:12:44 <AnMaster> when optimising
23:12:54 <AnMaster> I change in place so I can't compare tree after
23:12:57 <AnMaster> hm wait
23:12:58 <AnMaster> right
23:12:59 <AnMaster> duh
23:13:08 <AnMaster> I could pass a flag if anything was changed
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23:28:31 <oklopol> MizardX: when the counter overflows, does it output "counter overflow, try increasing screen width", and you've hidden that in the code so that an average human brain cannot find that in teh code?
23:28:55 <MizardX> no
23:29:05 <oklopol> what does it output then?
23:31:08 <oklopol> WHAT, it just spouts random garble!
23:31:09 <MizardX> If the screen width is a multiple of four, the (w/4+1)'th digit would increase the ones, and it would continue counting. If the screen width is not a multiple of four, the result is undefined.
23:31:15 * oklopol is very disappointed!
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23:34:26 <pgimeno> MizardX: great! seems that yours is more homogeneous than mine timing-wise
23:35:33 <ehird> oklopol:
23:35:36 <ehird> a
23:35:36 <ehird> b
23:35:37 <ehird> c
23:35:42 <oklopol> ehird: d
23:35:44 <ehird> also
23:35:51 <ehird> mizardx
23:35:52 <pgimeno> which should be no surprise given the nested ifs I use
23:35:53 <ehird> you were beaten
23:36:04 <ehird> MizardX:
23:36:05 <ehird> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/decimal-counter-uncommented.pfk
23:36:06 <ehird> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/decimal-counter.pfk
23:36:17 <pgimeno> ehird: I think he knows
23:36:20 <ehird> oh
23:36:24 <ehird> well pgimeno's digits are more readable
23:36:25 <ehird> :P
23:36:57 <MizardX> It's just a design issue
23:36:59 <pgimeno> but slower on average
23:37:06 <ehird> umm
23:37:09 <ehird> pgimeno's seems to be faster
23:37:09 <ehird> to me
23:37:13 <ehird> well
23:37:14 <ehird> maybe not
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23:38:46 <pgimeno> it may depend on the interpreter, if a certain kind of instructions are not the same speed
23:39:54 <oklopol> now someone make a library for simplifying equations expressed as drawn digits & operators
23:40:03 <oklopol> & vars
23:40:12 <oklopol> simplifying equations?
23:40:18 <oklopol> well anyway, something sensible ;)
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2008-12-02
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00:08:42 <ehird> pgimeno: i'm gonna make a counter that outputs in binary
00:08:43 <ehird> :o
00:09:06 <pgimeno> ehird: cool, go ahead
00:09:59 <ehird> hmm
00:10:03 <ehird> which is kinda hard.
00:11:32 <pgimeno> ehird: do you mean dec-to-bin?
00:12:01 <ehird> JUST
00:12:05 <ehird> err
00:12:05 <ehird> just
00:12:09 <ehird> a counter that goes like this
00:12:12 <ehird> ....................
00:12:14 <ehird> ...................*
00:12:17 <ehird> ..................*.
00:12:18 <ehird> ..................**
00:12:22 <ehird> .................*..
00:12:24 <ehird> .................*.*
00:12:27 <ehird> .................**.
00:12:28 <pgimeno> enough :)
00:12:28 <ehird> .................***
00:12:30 <ehird> etc
00:12:31 <ehird> :P
00:12:35 <ehird> wait
00:12:39 <ehird> isn't that already done?
00:12:50 <pgimeno> it is but you can try for yourself
00:13:09 <pgimeno> that's why I asked if you were going to implement a dec-to-bin
00:16:21 <pgimeno> it would be funny to see division&remainder code...
00:16:43 <pgimeno> actually just multiply-by-ten
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00:18:18 <pgimeno> anyway, I might either implement Fredkin's automaton or just give up on
00:18:20 -!- puzzlet has joined.
00:18:38 <pgimeno> + paintfuck programming
00:20:02 <oklopol> yeah maybe someone should make underpaint next.
00:20:10 <jayCampbell> take one down and pass it around,
00:20:10 <jayCampbell> You are in a small hut by a dirt road.
00:20:10 <jayCampbell> 75 bottles of beer on the wall!
00:20:13 <ehird> pgimeno: why? :( it's fun
00:20:35 <pgimeno> ehird: it takes too many resources
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00:20:41 <ehird> true :P
00:21:15 <pgimeno> I mean in brain CPU %, not in computer CPU %
00:21:32 <ehird> yeah
00:21:34 <ehird> :)
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00:27:48 <oklopol> o
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01:21:49 <jayCampbell> thread[:jumps] = Hash.new if $jumpfuck
01:25:13 <oklopol> ooooo
01:27:42 <jayCampbell> have a kitchen sink i can cram into this thing?
01:35:02 <oklopol> you can't have a sink without a source
01:35:08 <oklopol> except if it's a circulation
01:35:17 <oklopol> but even then it's not satisfiable
01:35:40 <oklopol> hehe, ackermann as type templates as a c++ exercise
01:35:42 <oklopol> for uni
01:36:45 <oklopol> wait, no it's not that, i'm dissappointed :<
01:37:51 <MizardX> C++ templates have a limited stack depth. Was it 7, 17, 27 or 127...? I can't remember.
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01:38:46 <oklopol> sure.
01:39:09 <MizardX> But if you implement your own stack with e.g. a linked list, you could stay within the stack limit.
01:39:11 <oklopol> i'd go with 16, but anyway
01:39:28 <oklopol> (if it was 16, i would probably remember it, though)
01:39:39 <oklopol> yes, sure, but that's so cheating
01:40:17 <Asztal> Yeah, I think it's 17, but nobody actually enforces it, it's usually much higher.
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01:45:24 * oklopol is a supporter of 0/1/inf
01:46:59 <Asztal> likewise
01:47:07 <MizardX> nan?
01:47:25 <Asztal> although in C++'s case, things are already difficult enough for implementors :)
01:48:07 <oklopol> MizardX: i definitely do not like any kinds of exceptions.
01:48:15 <oklopol> exceptions are exceptional, i only case about the general
01:48:38 <oklopol> (there are exceptions to that, but oerjan would probably emerge from somewhere and make a pun)
01:48:43 <oklopol> (so i'll keep quiet)
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02:43:21 <GregorR> strcpy works perfectly. Except when it's run by nethack, which magically makes it not work.
02:46:27 <Asztal> what does it do instead?
02:47:02 <GregorR> Fail in obscure ways.
02:47:12 <GregorR> It sorta-kinda copies.
02:47:21 <GregorR> With random chunks of the strings fegged up.
03:05:40 <Sgeo> ..why?
03:36:13 <jayCampbell> so an idea is
03:36:35 <jayCampbell> using the shared tape of weave.rb
03:36:48 <jayCampbell> certain programs could monitor certain spots
03:36:59 <jayCampbell> analogous to /etc/service port assignments
03:37:28 <jayCampbell> so any other thread could load subroutines on deman
03:37:32 <jayCampbell> d
03:37:50 <jayCampbell> nobody wants this, why am i compelled to connect this to an irc bot?
04:04:56 <GregorR> Aha! Figured out the problem with strcpy on nethack!
04:05:06 <GregorR> Now I just need to figure out the solution X-P
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04:23:09 <GregorR> Shall I pick a character's racÿ, role, genþer and aliîmet foz(yoÿ [ÿnq]þ
04:23:12 <GregorR> Well that's just not right.
04:26:39 <Asztal> ÿþîÿÿþ are all close to 255 (in unicode, anyway)
04:26:49 <Asztal> which is also odd
04:27:14 <Asztal> not to mention, how did alignment lose a character?
04:40:39 <GregorR> What's even stranger is that neither that string nor the (presumable) original string appear anywhere in the nethack dir D-8
04:45:58 -!- jayCampbell has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Shall I pick a character's racA?, role, genA3er and aliARmet foz(yoA?.
05:03:00 <GregorR> Note to self: MIPS' swl and swr instructions are SO EFFING CONFUSING
05:09:43 <jayCampbell> swill and sewer
05:28:25 <GregorR> DAMN YOU MIPS UNALIGNED MEMORY ACCESS INSTRUCTIONS
05:28:35 <GregorR> Bane of my existence.
05:36:55 <GregorR> Whootsynth!
05:39:41 <GregorR> OH BLOODY EFFING DEATH
05:40:08 <GregorR> Nethack writes out its data in the host's endian format X_X
05:40:16 <GregorR> Erm, the COMPILING host that is.
05:40:20 <GregorR> I have to compile this on a big-endian machine.
05:40:25 <GregorR> Piece o' crap.
05:48:11 <Asztal> :(
05:48:34 <Asztal> time to get gcc working on mips :D
05:50:55 * GregorR is debootstrapping a mips system now 8-D
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07:10:30 <olsner> for jsmips? :D
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07:38:55 <oerjan> oklopol: generally speaking exceptions are exceptional, except in exceptional cases where the general case does not hold
07:48:32 * jayCampbell revives EsoAPI
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08:07:42 <AnMaster> morning
08:12:57 <jayCampbell> evening
08:13:11 <jayCampbell> did the world even know it needed a brainfuck with embedded ruby interpreter?
08:14:15 <jayCampbell> debug breakpoint dumps are soooo last century
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08:23:06 <jayCampbell> >+++++++++++++++++++++++ # ruby print "hi "
08:23:06 <jayCampbell> ++++++++++++++++++++++++ # ruby print "there\n"
08:23:06 <jayCampbell> ++++++++++++++++++++++++< # ruby7 puts "tape size: #{thread[:tape].size}"
08:23:06 <jayCampbell> >>++++++++++<< .>>.<< >..........< .>>.<<
08:23:06 <jayCampbell> >>+++++++<< .>>.<< >>-------<< .>>.<<
08:23:17 <jayCampbell> ./weave.rb -R rubytest.b -E
08:23:17 <jayCampbell> hi there
08:23:17 <jayCampbell> GGGGGGGGGGhi there
08:23:17 <jayCampbell> tape size: 3
08:23:17 <jayCampbell> hi there
08:24:01 <jayCampbell> ruby via EsoAPI calls above number 9
08:24:30 <jayCampbell> in all seriousness, please, someone stop me
08:36:09 <oklopol> hello mister silly-bob
08:39:14 * oklopol realizes he's already taken the best courses @ uni, will be a downslope in funnity from this point on :<
08:40:41 <oklopol> hmm right, there's math department...
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10:45:49 <MizardX> oklopol: Me too. Sad feeling.
11:23:09 <Slereah_> Not me :D
11:23:22 <Slereah_> I get quantum electrodynamic next year :D
11:23:27 <Slereah_> Also general relativity :D
11:23:32 <Slereah_> Quantum chromodynamics!
11:23:35 <Slereah_> Yaaaaay!
11:23:38 <Slereah_> Hurray me!
11:23:50 <Slereah_> Sucks to be you :D
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12:08:02 <MizardX> Slereah_: You'll get there...
12:09:00 <Slereah_> OR WILL I?
12:09:10 <Slereah_> I mean, I don't really have classes after next year.
12:09:17 <Slereah_> After that it's my thesis and shit
12:21:32 <warrie> I don't want to study anything in particular at college.
12:24:05 <warrie> The stereotypical make-a-lot-of-money profession seems to be a lawyer.
12:27:33 <Slereah_> Can you be a lawyer with a degree in nothing-in-particular?
12:29:52 <warrie> I think so.
12:30:25 <warrie> You go to college, get a degree in nothing-in-particular, and take that to law school.
12:31:27 <Slereah_> Oh, so you need a degree for a degree?
12:31:50 <Slereah_> I'm glad I'm getting physics :o
12:31:54 <warrie> Something like that, yeah.
12:32:08 <warrie> Did you even look at law or medicine?
12:32:21 <Slereah_> Why would I?
12:32:29 <Slereah_> I wanted to do that shit since I was 9!
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13:12:07 <pgimeno> GregorR: so your cross-compiler doesn't deal with big-endianess? that's weird
13:12:25 <GregorR> pgimeno: Nononono, that's not the problem at all.
13:12:45 <pgimeno> oh, that's what I understood
13:12:53 <GregorR> pgimeno: The problem is that it generates data files using a program for the compiling system.
13:13:16 <pgimeno> oh, so you need to generate the data files in the emulator, right?
13:13:30 <GregorR> Egg-zactly.
13:13:38 <pgimeno> 'k
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14:10:04 <oklopol> Slereah_: I wanted to do that shit since I was 9! <<< i decided i wanted to be a programmer when i was 5
14:10:40 <oklopol> although i guess i've slowly inclined towards math / theoretical algorithmics since, but probably only because i didn't know much about things back then.
14:10:46 <oklopol> need to leave ---->
14:27:11 <MizardX> I think I got interested in programming around 7-8 years old. A friend showed some graphics in QBasic. Could have been earlier, but I don't remember much from that time.
14:43:47 <ehird> Around 8 for me I think, maybe a little earlier or later.
14:43:51 <ehird> I got my first computer at 3. :-P
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14:46:47 <ehird> hi ju
14:46:50 <ehird> hi Jud
14:46:55 <ehird> fucking tab complete
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16:10:57 <pgimeno> is User:Mattwescott here?
16:15:13 <ehird> dunno.
16:15:25 <ehird> most newbz don't come here, is he a newb?
16:15:33 <ehird> i see no User:Mattwescott
16:15:35 <ehird> on the esolang wiki
16:16:15 <pgimeno> ehird: I saw it on Special:Recentchanges
16:16:18 <pgimeno> *him
16:16:31 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges I don't.
16:16:35 <ehird> oh
16:16:39 <ehird> mattwesTcott
16:16:44 <pgimeno> err, misspelled: User:Mattwestcott
16:16:45 <ehird> then no
16:16:47 <ehird> i don't think so
16:16:57 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nil a joke language. neat.
16:17:01 <ehird> </sarc>
16:17:50 <pgimeno> just too easy the humour, but the interpreter is a bit more elaborate than that
16:18:24 <ehird> umm, true(1) is not very elaborate
16:18:31 <ehird> unless you mean GNU true :-P
16:18:49 <pgimeno> no, I mean the JS interpreter
16:18:57 <ehird> ah
16:19:10 * ehird reads.
16:19:12 <ehird> heh.
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17:20:28 <AnMaster> ^bf ++++++++++
17:20:31 -!- kar8nga has joined.
17:20:32 <AnMaster> ^bf ++++++++++.
17:20:33 <fungot> .
17:20:35 <AnMaster> hrrm
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18:26:19 <AnMaster> cc1: out of memory allocating 33554432 bytes after a total of 20123648 bytes
18:26:20 <AnMaster> wow
18:26:53 <ais523> AnMaster: what were you doing?
18:27:00 <ais523> to make gcc run out of memory so dramatically?
18:27:04 <AnMaster> ais523, trying to compile lost kingdom
18:27:14 <AnMaster> since I do the "turn into polynom" bit now
18:27:20 <AnMaster> ( ulimit -v $((1024 * 800)); gcc -O0 -o LostKng LostKng.c; )
18:27:20 <AnMaster> cc1: out of memory allocating 134217728 bytes after a total of 20148224 bytes
18:27:35 <AnMaster> maybe splitting it into multiple methods would work
18:27:53 <AnMaster> but that would be tricky due to loops and such
18:27:54 <ais523> AnMaster: do the same trick I did for OIL, split the function into separate functions in separate source files, then compile them separately
18:28:15 <ais523> I learnt that tip from the Debian developers who were trying to port C-INTERCAL, apparently it's happened to them before on other projects
18:28:18 <GregorR> I fixed the problem referred to in the topic btw :P
18:28:31 <AnMaster> ais523, not easy since it would most of the time need to split across two different while loops
18:28:33 <AnMaster> or such
18:28:40 <ais523> AnMaster: split the loop into a separate function
18:28:45 <AnMaster> hm
18:28:48 <ais523> and have it called by the other one
18:28:51 <AnMaster> ais523, need to know how big it is
18:28:56 <AnMaster> which I don't most of the time
18:29:01 <ais523> AnMaster: good thing computers are good at counting, then
18:29:08 <GregorR> Hah
18:29:15 <ais523> you're generating the code, no reason you can't count lines in your generated code
18:29:20 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah need to run O(n) search on every tree or something
18:29:31 <ais523> AnMaster: that's in the compile, it's O(n), do you really care?
18:29:38 <AnMaster> hm
18:29:45 <ais523> or are you trying to make the compiler insanely fast too
18:29:55 <AnMaster> ais523, it is currently rather fast
18:29:58 <AnMaster> but true
18:30:06 <GregorR> Actually, that would be O(n^2) as there are O(n) many nodes, each of which may contain O(n) many nodes.
18:30:26 <GregorR> (Assuming you have to do the search for O(n) many nodes)
18:30:26 <ais523> GregorR: no, just maintain a stack of subtotals and you can do it in one pass
18:30:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, each [ cause a subtree
18:30:31 <AnMaster> it is like a linked list
18:30:35 <AnMaster> with down nodes for [
18:30:45 <AnMaster> that is the internal format at that point
18:30:48 <ais523> you can use the totals for the lower levels when calculating the totals from the upper levels
18:30:51 <GregorR> ais523: But doing it the stupid naïve way is more fun D-8
18:31:23 <AnMaster> I guess that I could create some kind of weight count in a pass after the optimizer
18:31:24 <AnMaster> or such
18:31:39 <AnMaster> and add yet another field to the nodes
18:31:56 <ais523> AnMaster: you're saying this as if it's a bad thing
18:32:12 <AnMaster> ais523, since each node is 88 bytes on x86_64 it isn't totally small
18:32:19 <AnMaster> I do use union tricks and so on already yes
18:32:25 <ais523> why use union tricks?
18:32:43 <AnMaster> ais523, why would I need loop specific data for > or > specific data for loops?
18:32:43 <ais523> extreme memory optimisation in the compiler isn't going to gain you anything in execution speed
18:32:58 <AnMaster> ais523, true, I just don't want to run out in the compiler either
18:32:59 <ais523> AnMaster: you don't, not using union tricks therefore makes it easier to debug
18:33:18 <ais523> AnMaster: your compiler's already more memory-efficient than gcc
18:33:23 <AnMaster> ais523, I haven't had any such bugs yet at least.
18:33:24 <ais523> therefore making it more memory-efficient is irrelevant
18:33:35 <ais523> as you're going to be using more memory later in the process anyway
18:34:06 <AnMaster> ais523, true, but the issue is that likely the libc won't give the now freed ram back
18:34:17 <ais523> AnMaster: it will when the program ends!
18:34:32 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but I can system() to invoke cc, like ick does
18:36:29 <AnMaster> also I need to add a generic reorder pass that can move stuff around, current code can only do that in simple balanced loops
18:36:32 <AnMaster> ais523, that reminds me
18:36:46 <AnMaster> how does one turn this into a polynomial:
18:36:53 <AnMaster> [>+++<--]
18:37:11 <AnMaster> my current code only handles a +1/-1 atm
18:37:14 <ais523> AnMaster: if it's even, that's +1.5x. If it's odd, infinite loop
18:37:26 <ais523> you need to condition on each possible value of the input modulo the number of -s
18:37:36 <AnMaster> ais523, hm
18:37:52 <AnMaster> easier said than done with current design
18:38:05 <AnMaster> I wouldn't be surprised if gcc was cleaner than this
18:38:14 <AnMaster> on the other hand I never coded anything like this before
18:38:25 <oerjan> usually only one value will _not_ be an infinite loop, i think...
18:38:26 <AnMaster> probably something for tdwtf
18:38:51 <AnMaster> ais523, consider: +++[>+++<--]
18:38:56 <AnMaster> as the full program
18:38:56 <ais523> oerjan: no, it's just evenness/divisibility by 4/divisibility by 8, etc
18:39:05 <AnMaster> ais523, that will wrap once
18:39:09 <ais523> as 256 is a power of 2
18:39:14 <ais523> AnMaster: that will wrap forevor
18:39:16 <AnMaster> ais523, err 255
18:39:19 <oerjan> ais523: one modulus value, i mean
18:39:29 <oerjan> er remainder value
18:39:31 <AnMaster> ^bf +++[>+++<--] ++++++.
18:39:36 <AnMaster> hm ok
18:39:36 <fungot> ...out of time!
18:39:37 <AnMaster> true
18:39:43 <ais523> oerjan: if the modulus is odd, then it'll wrap n times and then finish
18:39:52 <AnMaster> ^bf ++[>+++<--] ++++++.
18:39:53 <ais523> due to odd numbers not dividing into 256
18:40:01 <AnMaster> fungot, ?
18:40:02 <fungot> AnMaster: not at all, don't let the bed bugs byte)." what kinda procedure could that be because of extensions too.
18:40:05 <AnMaster> wtf
18:40:08 <AnMaster> ^bf ++[>+++<--] +++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
18:40:15 <AnMaster> that was odd
18:40:28 <ais523> yep
18:40:44 <AnMaster> ^bf ++[>+++<--]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
18:40:44 <fungot> =
18:40:48 <AnMaster> ^bf ++[>+++<--] +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
18:40:49 <fungot> =
18:40:51 <AnMaster> hm
18:40:55 <AnMaster> ok
18:40:57 <AnMaster> very strange
18:41:06 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe you got it to ouptut a space
18:41:14 <ais523> who knows, you might have hit exactly the right number of +
18:41:21 <AnMaster> ais523, I tried with two values
18:41:25 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ^bf +++[>+++<--] ++++++.
18:41:27 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ^bf ++[>+++<--] +++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
18:41:32 <oerjan> ais523: odd modulus is thus uninteresting
18:41:34 <AnMaster> ^bf ++[>+++<--] +++++++++.
18:41:34 <fungot>
18:41:37 <AnMaster> ^bf ++[>+++<--] ++++++.
18:41:38 <ais523> AnMaster: the first one is an infiniloop
18:41:49 <AnMaster> ais523, and the two last ones?
18:41:54 <AnMaster> ^bf ++[>+++<--] +.
18:41:54 <fungot> <CTCP>
18:42:01 <AnMaster> ouch
18:42:02 <AnMaster> ^bf ++[>+++<--] ++.
18:42:10 <AnMaster> hm
18:42:15 <AnMaster> ok strange
18:42:54 <AnMaster> ais523, in any case this should really be done with something like oil for bf, it is a pain to write it in C
18:43:14 <AnMaster> also nested loops mess it up a lot
18:43:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: the Brainfuck Constants page on the wiki contains many examples of such loops
18:43:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes nested loops are important I know
18:43:59 <AnMaster> the issue is, they don't yet work
18:44:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: i wasn't responding to your comment
18:44:17 <AnMaster> for example if the nested loop change the index, not very easy to detect always
18:44:29 <AnMaster> or rather quite a pain
18:44:32 <oerjan> i was speaking about the loops you tested above
18:44:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm?
18:45:09 <oerjan> [>+++etc<---etc] loops
18:45:21 <AnMaster> ah right
18:45:47 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
18:46:29 <oerjan> i imagine unbalanced loops are almost impossible to optimize unless you have meta-information about memory contents
18:47:10 <ais523> oerjan: yes, I have a crazy plan to deduce the meta-information
18:47:29 <oerjan> O_O
18:55:15 <oklopol> so, anyone here know a nice program for composing stuff?
18:55:33 <oklopol> i've used guitar pro, but it's total crap so was just thinking
18:55:33 <ais523> oklopol: you mean like music?
18:55:35 <oklopol> yes
18:55:45 <oklopol> someone invite lament here
18:56:02 <oklopol> i'll try his pm, he'll be sooooo surprised
18:56:29 <ais523> oklopol: I've used Rosegarden, it's pretty good for writing down tunes you've composed elsewhere
18:56:36 <ais523> which is what I normally do
18:57:30 <oklopol> hmm, rosegarden.
18:57:34 <oklopol> i've heard about that
18:57:45 <oerjan> lament is on freenode but not on this channel? did we scare him away? :(
18:58:14 <oerjan> oklopol: obviously we cannot promise you that
18:58:15 <oklopol> what i'd really like is a sensible electric guitar sound for this project.
18:58:15 <jayCampbell> does anyone have a copy of brainfuck OS?
18:58:32 <jayCampbell> the googles fail me
18:59:00 <AnMaster> ais523, mandelbrot is down to 7.3 seconds
18:59:11 <AnMaster> there is of course a lot more that could be done
18:59:31 <oklopol> oerjan: he's always on freenode, but rarely here
19:00:15 <jayCampbell> has anyone here used bf-os?
19:00:32 <oklopol> guitar pro has a pretty cool bug if you try adding a ninth track, pans of tracks 8 and 9 can't be made different :D
19:00:51 <oklopol> i really can't imagine how there could be a bug that only appears on a certain track
19:01:07 <AnMaster> is it open source?
19:01:15 <AnMaster> if not: no clue, if yes, look at the source
19:01:39 <AnMaster> <ais523> oklopol: I've used Rosegarden, it's pretty good for writing down tunes you've composed elsewhere
19:01:39 <AnMaster> <ais523> which is what I normally do
19:01:41 <AnMaster> indeed
19:01:45 <AnMaster> I have used it too
19:01:46 <AnMaster> very nice
19:03:01 <oklopol> um, look at the source why exactly?
19:03:03 <AnMaster> hm considering the name contains "pro" it is probably *not* open source
19:03:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, of the program with the bug
19:04:38 <oklopol> yeah it's not os
19:31:35 <pikhq> jayCampbell: No, but I've been tempted to write one from time to time...
19:31:47 <pikhq> (Def-BF would actually work *well* for that...)
19:33:19 <jayCampbell> do you know the spec?
19:33:36 <pikhq> Don't happen to have the details handy...
19:33:36 <jayCampbell> i have a framework
19:33:43 <pikhq> One could ask RodgerTheGreat for it.
19:34:52 <jayCampbell> wanna help write brainfucklets that interact?
19:38:05 <jayCampbell> basically comes down to deciding what functions map to what cell addresses or EsoAPI slot
19:39:38 * oerjan thinks that sounds like something that would be illegal in most countries
19:39:54 <pikhq> Def-BF != EsoAPI or PSOX or whatever you're wanting to do...
19:40:11 <pikhq> Def-BF is basically Brainfuck + labels & jump.
19:40:27 <Sgeo> jayCampbell, EsoAPI is dead. Long live PSOX, which is dead!
19:40:49 <pikhq> Which matches *very* cleanly to assembly, and makes for a really nice systems programming language.
19:40:56 <jayCampbell> i put esoapi and jumpfuck into weave.rb
19:41:00 <jayCampbell> so it's very much alive
19:41:07 <jayCampbell> psox i couldn't find a speck of info about either
19:41:29 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX
19:41:41 <ehird> lol, psox
19:41:43 <ehird> jayCampbell: ignore Sgeo
19:41:46 <ehird> PSOX is his vaporware
19:41:48 <Sgeo> And if you need more info than what you can find in http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk , ask me
19:41:48 <ehird> and is awfully dseigned
19:41:51 <ehird> although esoapi is awful too
19:41:53 <Sgeo> ehird, it's NOT vaporware
19:41:54 <ehird> http://lwn.net/Articles/104185/
19:41:56 <jayCampbell> where is def-bf
19:42:00 <ehird> Sgeo: just keep telling yourself that
19:42:09 <jayCampbell> sgeo send me your spec?
19:42:17 <Sgeo> ehird, if you want me to finish it up and call it a beta, I'll do that
19:42:29 <ehird> Sgeo: no, I'd rather you never mentioned it again
19:42:31 <ehird> lest I commit suicide :D
19:42:33 <Sgeo> jayCampbell, http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/spec
19:42:41 <ehird> jayCampbell: turn back
19:42:41 <Sgeo> ehird, jayCampbell's the one asking about it
19:42:44 <ehird> turn back while you still have your insanity
19:42:56 <pikhq> ehird: I'd hesitate to call PSOX vaporware...
19:43:03 <pikhq> Sgeo *did* actually get it implemented.
19:43:05 <ehird> pikhq: ok, more like HORRORWARE
19:43:09 <pikhq> Better.
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19:43:19 <nooga> aaaaaaaaaaaaah
19:43:21 <nooga> i forgot C
19:43:23 <jayCampbell> jesus f
19:43:44 <pikhq> Though it wasn't necessarily *bad* for the most part; just poor choices on some details, really.
19:43:50 <Sgeo> What details?
19:43:52 <ehird> pikhq: details such as EVERYTHING
19:43:52 <ehird> >_<
19:43:54 <pikhq> Not bad for a hack.
19:44:05 <pikhq> Sgeo: The type system, IMHO.
19:44:13 <nooga> wtf is that scanf("%s") returns "" after scanf("%c")
19:44:20 <ehird> Sgeo: DON'T FORGET SAFETY
19:44:45 <Sgeo> ehird, safety's kind of dead, thanks to you
19:44:56 <Sgeo> Well, deader than PSOX itself, at any rate
19:45:55 <jayCampbell> psox isn't impossible
19:46:20 <ehird> psox is more awful than impossible
19:46:22 <jayCampbell> it's a little more .. robust than i expected
19:58:04 <oerjan> nooga: what text are you trying to read?
20:21:44 <ehird> http://blog.wolfram.com/2008/12/01/the-incredible-convenience-of-mathematica-image-processing/ wish there was like a mathematica thta didn't suck
20:30:55 <oklopol> wow, that's pretty neat
20:31:54 <jayCampbell> woah http://smoaktalk.com/st/071808/
20:32:07 <ehird> oklopol thinks its neat, wow
20:32:08 <ehird> it must be really neat
20:32:14 <ehird> jayCampbell: neat
20:32:17 <ehird> i saw a smalltalk in JS before
20:32:21 <ehird> vista smalltalk it was called iirc
20:32:26 <ehird> had a lisp-based syntax for core stuff
20:32:40 <oklopol> ehird: what's sucky about that?
20:32:46 <ehird> oklopol: ?
20:32:49 <ehird> oh
20:32:51 <ehird> just mathematica in general?
20:32:56 <ehird> ask ais523, I've heard horror stories from him
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20:33:34 <oklopol> oh, you didn't meant that looked absolutely horrible?
20:33:38 <ehird> no
20:33:51 <ehird> i just meant i wish there was a system with stuff that awesome
20:33:53 <jayCampbell> here's the js one: http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~awarth/ometa/ometa-js/
20:33:54 <ehird> that wasn't as sucky as mathemtaica
20:33:57 <ehird> jayCampbell: no, not ometa
20:34:12 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vista_Smalltalk huh, it's just for IE7
20:34:13 <ehird> weird
20:34:16 <oklopol> i mean, i'd probably want the graphs and the pictures to be much smaller, but i'm sure that's possible.
20:34:18 <oklopol> ehird: yeah okay
20:34:22 <oklopol> i misunderstood you then
20:34:33 <oklopol> yeah i know it sucks too, heard the same horror stories.
20:34:52 <oklopol> but that looked pretty neat, in fact looks like something i might scrap python for.
20:35:03 <ehird> yeah, that totally fits how I program
20:35:09 <ehird> I just get data and play with it and shove it into other data
20:35:23 * ehird is tempted to write a mathematica minus the stuck now but realises it's probably not easy :P
20:35:49 <ehird> [[Request a Free Trial »
20:35:50 <ehird> Send us your request and you can experience Mathematica yourself with a fully functional 15-day license.]]
20:35:53 <ehird> i hate how you have to manually contact them
20:37:21 <Sgeo> mmm, trial licenses in a VM..
20:37:35 <ehird> Sgeo: also known as bittorrent?
20:37:48 <ehird> also, you can't even get a trial license without someone manually respondign to your request
20:38:09 <Sgeo> ehird, I was talking in general. Wouldn't work for Mathematica, due to that contact stuff
20:38:18 <ehird> Sgeo: well... bittorrent
20:38:18 <ehird> yo.
20:38:58 <Sgeo> I wouldn't want to run anything that might even have a risk of malware outside a VM, and if I'm going to be running it in a VM anyway, why even bother with BitTorrent?
20:39:15 <ehird> Sgeo: Malware? Ah, you must be a windows user!
20:39:21 <ehird> And use public trackers.
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20:45:44 <ehird> jayCampbell: that smalltalk seems a bit castrated
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20:45:48 <ehird> it seems to have a lot of primitives
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21:00:28 <ehird> .
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23:01:15 <warrie> I've decided that a Turing machine's initial state must be the output of a push-down automaton.
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23:13:09 <jayCampbell> this is awesome http://jarrett.cs.ucla.edu/ometa-js/
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23:46:38 <lament> i should stop listening to non-solo-piano music.
23:46:56 <lament> cause when i do, there's a risk that i will want to play it
23:47:14 <lament> and that would involve arranging it, which is not always feasible
23:55:19 <warrie> What broken LZW algorithm produced that topic?
23:57:40 <warrie> I want a flash-card-like program that plays notes and asks me to identify them.
23:59:01 <lament> i almost wrote that once
23:59:10 <lament> you think you have absolute pitch?
23:59:31 <Sgeo> <3 Time-loop logic
2008-12-03
00:00:48 <warrie> I do think I have absolute pitch.
00:01:13 <lament> then just write this program, it's very easy
00:01:18 -!- nooga_ has changed nick to nooga.
00:01:21 <warrie> Okay.
00:01:22 <lament> you can find sources for tone generation
00:01:43 <lament> tons of ways to do it, you can be high level and do midi, or low level and do sine waves + sdl
00:01:53 <warrie> Or use JavaScript and piano sounds.
00:02:00 <lament> or that.
00:02:09 <lament> a.wav, asharp.wav, b.wav, etc
00:02:10 <lament> :D
00:03:27 <warrie> I could confuse myself by having asharp.wav and bflat.wav as different pitches.
00:03:42 <warrie> Or I could shut up about alternative tunings.
00:04:51 <lament> if you have absolute pitch that can tell A# from Bb
00:05:00 <lament> in whatever sane temperament
00:05:11 <lament> then you're a fucking genius and should probably work as a piano tuner?
00:05:43 <warrie> I'm sure distinguishing them is relatively easy in 19-tone equal temperament.
00:08:24 <Sgeo> Wait, A# and Bb are different?
00:08:49 <warrie> In some tunings, yes.
00:09:17 <warrie> If your piano has only one key between A and B, go ahead and use it for both A# and Bb.
00:10:17 * warrie tries to see if Python can easily do MIDI
00:15:46 <jayCampbell> does anyone remember the recent tool that generates grammars based on example sources?
00:19:37 <Asztal> never heard of it, but now I want to see it!
00:19:55 <GreaseMonkey> warrie: if you want to you can build your own synth system
00:20:06 <GreaseMonkey> using an audio device
00:22:29 <warrie> Sounds easier to use MIDI or something.
00:22:55 <GreaseMonkey> get the value of the 12th root of 2
00:23:03 <GreaseMonkey> then, 440Hz = A-4
00:23:14 <GreaseMonkey> to go up an octave, *2
00:23:24 <GreaseMonkey> to go up a semitone, * 12th root of 2
00:23:41 <GreaseMonkey> down is just dividing instead of multiplying
00:24:36 * Sgeo wants to transplant a conversation into here
00:26:18 <GreaseMonkey> wow. google calculator gave me the answer.
00:26:19 <GreaseMonkey> 12th root of 2 = 1.05946309
00:26:49 <Sgeo> A computer chip that can receive things sent from the future
00:27:09 <GreaseMonkey> that would be hot.
00:27:38 <Sgeo> char wormhole_recv(char slot)
00:27:50 <Sgeo> and wormhole_send(char slot, char data)
00:28:00 <Sgeo> as low level functions
00:28:08 <warrie> This is what I really like about Google Calculator: http://www.google.com/search?q=%281+month+*+1+lunar+month%29%2F%281+month+-+1+lunar+month%29+*+once+in+a+blue+moon
00:29:42 <Sgeo> The fact that it defines "once in a blue moon" somehow that should make sense to be from that but doesn't?
00:30:28 <Sgeo> Why is a blue moon = (month-lunarmonth) / (month*lunarmonth)?
00:30:52 <warrie> A blue moon is the second full moon in a calendar month, I believe.
00:33:46 <GreaseMonkey> something like that
00:34:07 <GreaseMonkey> heh
00:36:13 <Sgeo> So, what things can be done on a system like what I described
00:36:25 <Sgeo> Future IMs, Perfect Password Cracker
00:37:39 <GreaseMonkey> finding out your test results
00:38:06 <Sgeo> That would be under Future IM/Email
00:38:37 <Sgeo> Evacuations of buildings that could easily give false positives but never false negatives
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00:41:52 <MizardX> wormhole_recv: receive a message from the future. wormhole_send: send a message to the past, but doesn't always send what you give it.
00:43:49 <Sgeo> MizardX, why would you do that?
00:44:02 <MizardX> easier to implement :)
00:44:09 <Sgeo> rofl
00:44:16 <GreaseMonkey> any other reason?
00:44:19 <MizardX> no
00:45:02 <Sgeo> There's also the Pime Taradox issue: Someone might right a function like this:
00:45:18 <Sgeo> wormhole_send(wormhole_recv()+1)
00:45:55 <Sgeo> To prevent random lightning strikes as the resolution, the chip should randomly, on wormhole_recv, through some sort of trap or exception like PimeTaradox
00:45:57 <Asztal> I guess it just keeps destroying the universe until it finds a fixed point or something
00:46:06 <Sgeo> The possibility of this needs to be controllable, I think
00:48:04 <warrie> I prefer my model: Assuming I haven't extrapolated too wildly, every quantum circuit has a fixed point. The wormhole gate pretty much just tells you what it is.
00:48:26 <Sgeo> That involves quantum compution though
00:48:31 <Sgeo> Which is a bit mind-bending
00:48:55 <warrie> Yes, but once you bend your mind once, it should stay that way.
00:51:37 <Sgeo> I think you said my way was more poweful?
00:52:04 * Sgeo doesn't know the limitations or benefits of your quantum system
00:56:10 <warrie> I think I did say your way was more powerful.
00:56:18 <MizardX> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p342611616.txt ;)
00:56:44 <jayCampbell> can't you have a hot spare?
00:57:30 <lament> warrie: did you write the program yet?
00:58:04 <warrie> Nope.
00:58:36 <Sgeo> MizardX, don't tell me you're actually trying to implement this..
00:58:39 <lament> i wonder if there's any benefit to such a program, though
00:58:48 <lament> i.e. whether it would train absolute pitch or not
00:59:13 <Sgeo> MizardX randomly takes a number, or receives something from the past
00:59:31 <lament> absolute pitch would be ridiculously useful for writing music you hear down
00:59:53 <warrie> I'm sure it would be as effective as flash cards for anything else.
01:00:00 <lament> i'm not.
01:00:19 <warrie> I mean, not if you don't already have absolute pitch; that seems to be established well enough.
01:00:49 * jayCampbell pitches an absolute fit
01:01:59 <Sgeo> ..grr
01:02:13 <lament> warrie: if you already have it, what does "training" it do?
01:02:31 * Sgeo wants new OotS
01:02:43 <lament> with flashcards, when you're shown an unknown word twice, you might not know the word, but you would be able to tell that it's the same
01:02:58 <lament> i'm not sure if "underdeveloped" absolute pitch works like that
01:03:13 * Sgeo abuses his TLL computer to peak at the new OotS
01:03:15 <Sgeo> Ooh!
01:03:30 <warrie> lament: I'm quite familiar with G, having listened to Bach's "Little" Fugue in G minor many times.
01:04:20 <lament> oh, that fugue is nice
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01:04:53 <lament> but if you can remember one note, then you just need to measure the interval from it to the note you hear, which is relative pitch and very easy
01:05:17 <warrie> But that takes two steps.
01:05:31 <lament> but if you heard the same fugue played in f#, would you notice? :)
01:06:28 <warrie> I imagine so.
01:06:33 <lament> nice
01:07:26 <lament> i feel kinda dumb not having absolute pitch, so if it can be trained that would be nice
01:08:02 <warrie> There's a piano at school that seems to be shifted in pitch a bit, though by less than a semitone, I'm guessing.
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01:13:44 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonal_memory
01:13:53 <lament> "Tonal memory may be used as a strategy for learning to identify musical tones absolutely. Although those who attempt the strategy believe they are learning absolute pitch, the ability thus learned is generally not musically relevant[3], and their absolute tonal memory declines substantially or completely over time if not constantly reinforced."
01:14:06 <lament> i believe that's what the flashcard program would do.
01:14:34 <lament> http://www.aruffo.com/eartraining/research/articles/meyer99.htm
01:14:52 <lament> although that paper is from 1899 so who knows
01:18:58 <lament> damn, so you can't develop absolute pitch if you don't have it :(
01:19:35 <lament> and if you know G because you listened to a fugue in G a lot, that would be tonal memory, not absolute pitch
01:21:48 <warrie> How am I supposed to know if I have absolute pitch or not, then?
01:22:49 <lament> absolute pitch means you perceive pitch as one of the characteristics of the note
01:23:06 <lament> without any relationship to other notes (including ones you have memorized)
01:24:34 <lament> like, blue is blue because it's blue, not because it's different from green in a certain way
01:26:56 <Asztal> well, I don't have absolute colour :(
01:26:57 <lament> at least relative pitch can certainly be trained, and it's arguably much more useful
01:27:13 <warrie> How do you falsify absolute pitch?
01:28:38 <lament> good question!
01:29:35 <lament> wikipedia gives no hints
01:29:51 <lament> other than hypersensitivity to the pitch being correct
01:30:06 <lament> i.e. you should notice when a piece is playing in the wrong key
01:30:59 <lament> "the tasks of identification (recognizing and naming a pitch) and discrimination (detecting changes or differences in rate of vibration) are accomplished with different brain mechanisms."
01:31:16 <lament> does that mean absolute pitch is visible on EEG?
01:32:25 <lament> http://www.zainea.com/absolpitch.pdf
01:32:29 <lament> Being unable to turn it
01:32:29 <lament> off, many possessors of AP perform dramatically poorer at
01:32:30 <lament> judging whether a melody and its transposed counterpart
01:32:34 <lament> are the same
01:33:28 <warrie> Does it count if I can remember the key a piece of music is in?
01:33:50 <lament> what do you mean?
01:34:04 <lament> can you tell the key, by listening to the music?
01:34:53 <jayCampbell> you don't need perfect pitch for that
01:35:57 <lament> jayCampbell: what do you need?
01:36:09 <warrie> If you played me "Amaranth" on the piano, I could tell you whether it's in the same key as a certain YouTube video of it.
01:38:28 <lament> since you have musical training, i think with absolute pitch you ought to guess the note pretty much all of the time
01:38:56 <lament> Some people have AP for only a single tone – often their
01:38:56 <lament> tuning note – and fail to show the automatic and rapid
01:38:56 <lament> identification found in true AP possessors (hence, this is
01:38:56 <lament> termed ‘quasi-AP’). They are able to obtain high scores on
01:38:56 <lament> standard AP tests by calculating tone names from their
01:38:58 <lament> one internal referent. It is only when reaction times are
01:39:01 <lament> collected that they can be distinguished from true AP
01:39:03 <lament> possessors.
01:39:13 <lament> heh! falsifiable via reaction time :)
01:39:54 <jayCampbell> it's easier for me to recognize or hum an E than other notes
01:40:25 -!- warrie has changed nick to Warrigal.
01:40:27 <jayCampbell> maybe i'm a quasi, i think i recognize other keys as being shifted from E
01:40:34 <Warrigal> There, now G's in my nick.
01:41:05 <lament> er, good job
01:42:27 <GregorR> Everybody knows that people with "G" in their nick are substantially cooler than the rest.
01:43:14 <Warrigal> Actually, the letter A is what makes a nick cool.
01:43:24 <Warrigal> So everybody who's spoken recently except... GregorR, I guess.
01:43:47 <Warrigal> You're exempt, though, because Gregor is an actual name.
01:44:09 <GregorR> a's cancel each other out though, having two is like having none.
01:44:45 <Warrigal> In that case, I'm also exempt, because "warrigal" is an actual word.
01:44:47 <Asztal> :(
01:45:33 * Sgeo isn't cool?
01:46:39 <Warrigal> It's all about pronounceability, or pronuncibility, or whatever that thing's called.
01:47:53 <Warrigal> Should I assume your "g" and "e" are pronounced the same way as in your real name?
01:48:14 <Sgeo> The "g" in Sgeo is pronounced the opposite from my real name
01:49:02 <Warrigal> Is the "e" a short e, a long e, a long a, or something else?
01:49:25 <Sgeo> Suh Jee Oh
01:49:43 <Warrigal> That makes it a long e.
01:53:17 <Warrigal> Well, installing the fancy thingy that's supposed to make Python make noise failed.
01:53:21 <Warrigal> You do it, lament. :-P
02:14:51 <Sgeo> Another use (of the TLL computer): Instant downloading of any size file
02:17:38 <Sgeo> Instant cracking of hashed passwords, although I supposed that's not needed with the Perfect Password Cracker
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02:46:38 <Warrigal> What Perfect Password Cracker?
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03:41:52 <GregorR> Hrm ... nethack starts, but seems stuck >_>
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06:22:25 <jayCampbell> ais523,
06:23:07 <jayCampbell> i implemented your reversible brainfuck but i have no idea how it attains reversability
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06:31:22 <jayCampbell> ais52, nevermind, it just clicked
06:32:11 <jayCampbell> that would be a good eso-challenge
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06:33:41 <jayCampbell> create a brainfuck program that reverses another program's run
06:50:54 <GregorR> Hrm ... sounds halting-problem-ish.
06:51:24 <lament> it's worse
06:51:54 <lament> if my program prints integers starting from 0 and going up, should the reversed program print them from infinity going down?
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08:09:27 <jayCampbell> ais523 is the one to talk to about proofs
08:11:07 <jayCampbell> i just flipped a couple lines of code
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09:54:52 <oklopol> you don't need absolute pitch for writing anything you hear down
09:55:12 <oklopol> it only helps in that you don't need to hit a random piano key to get the relative in context.
09:55:23 <oklopol> 02:04… lament: if you have absolute pitch that can tell A# from Bb <<< A# and Bb aren't different in any sane tuning.
09:56:02 <oklopol> makes no sense to have those two different, they simply have no conceptual difference.
09:57:09 <oklopol> and you definitely shouldn't make a.wav, asharp.wav etc., at least if you press the keys yourself, it's trivial to learn to recognize a certain ".wav", that has nothing to do with recognizing the pitch.
09:57:29 <oklopol> things ->
10:00:57 <lament> oklopol: a# and bb are different notes
10:01:11 <lament> they just happen to fall on the same pitch in 12-note equal temperament
10:02:16 <lament> but a violinist, say, is able to play them more correctly (closer to natural harmonics)
10:03:53 <lament> the difference is that a# is the note a fifth up from d#, and bB is the note a fifth down from f
10:04:10 <oklopol> what are their mathematical definitions? i go by 440*2**(n/12) for all purposes
10:04:11 <lament> the circle of fifths is actually a straight line of fifths
10:04:35 <lament> it goes in the direction of increasing sharps, in the opposite direction of increasing flats
10:04:38 <lament> both directions are infinite
10:04:57 <oerjan> oklopol: that _is_ 12 note equal temperament
10:05:18 <oklopol> ohh
10:05:25 <oklopol> yes, okay, now i get it, of course
10:05:30 <lament> but with 12 note equal temperament, we turn the straight line into a loop
10:05:39 <oklopol> you mean A# and Bb are different notes in C scale.
10:05:42 <oklopol> yeah, true.
10:05:42 <lament> by approximating the true pitches with one of 12 discrete choices
10:06:12 <oklopol> my point was exactly that they aren't different if you consider the whole set of scales.
10:06:29 <lament> they're different
10:06:42 <lament> they correspond to different frequencies, if you start at C and go up or down in fifths
10:06:52 <oklopol> yeah, and Ab in D scale is different than Ab in C scale
10:07:16 <oklopol> my point is A# and Bb don't have a fundamental difference, except in a certain scale
10:07:24 <lament> um
10:07:29 <lament> they're completely different notes
10:07:43 <lament> in 12-note equal temperament, they happen to fall on the same pitch
10:08:07 <oklopol> i'd like to see the math here.
10:08:22 <lament> sure
10:08:27 <lament> octaves are powers of two
10:08:58 <lament> fifths are powers of ummm
10:09:55 <lament> what are they powers of? :)
10:10:11 <oerjan> some rational number, anyway
10:10:24 <oklopol> hmm. i'm not sure you understood i do know A# and Bb are different notes, and that my point was just that they are also another two different notes if you start the scale of fifths from, say, D?
10:10:27 <lament> the interval ratio of the note up a fifth from a root note is 3:2 iirc
10:11:20 <oklopol> anyway i'm not interested in getting these ratios right, that's just adding an uninteresting complication to an otherwise nice system.
10:11:55 <lament> no, they will be the same if you start from D, provided that you arrived to D by starting at C first :)
10:12:08 <oklopol> umm
10:12:15 <lament> i mean they won't be the same
10:12:21 <oklopol> the D scale will not be correct then.
10:12:26 <oklopol> so no, you shouldn't start from C then
10:12:34 <oklopol> if you do, why not just use equiscale.
10:12:39 <oklopol> just as crooked
10:12:54 <lament> thing is
10:12:59 <lament> tonal music is built on the cycle of fifths
10:13:07 <lament> we choose an arbitrary pitch as the centre
10:13:25 <lament> in indian music, they don't even have fixed note frequencies, they just tune to whatever
10:13:40 <lament> as long as there's the center, other notes are defined in terms of it
10:13:49 <lament> unless you don't want to be tonal
10:13:56 <lament> which you don't have to be, of course
10:14:18 <lament> then you can just take the octave and divide it into N equidistant pitches, for example
10:14:28 <lament> or simply choose a set of N random frequencies as your "notes"
10:14:32 <lament> or do whatever
10:14:41 <oklopol> yes, and my point is, if you stick the fucking C in the middle all the time, and play in say D major, and then start telling A# and Bb are different, that's just bullcrap, that's just a random distinction. it's only helpful if you're actually playing in the scale your circle of fifths is tuned on
10:14:50 <lament> but if you're tonal, you have to follow the circle of fifths
10:14:57 <oklopol> 12 is the only one that makes sense
10:15:11 <lament> no, that's not true
10:15:13 <oklopol> read wouter's article on the subject
10:15:24 <oklopol> 12 is the most natural
10:15:29 <lament> perhaps
10:15:41 <lament> chinese classical music has 5 notes per octave?
10:15:52 <lament> they manage
10:15:56 <oklopol> anyway, i'm not at all interested, and you're not showing me the math, so you're basically saying nothing ->
10:16:08 <oklopol> they do? nevaheard, link something to me while i'm gone
10:16:13 <oklopol> because i don't believe you :P
10:16:15 <lament> the math is that the notes in a fifth are in a 3:2 ratio
10:16:15 <oklopol> !! ->
10:16:24 <lament> and no matter how many such ratios you put in a line
10:16:30 <lament> you will never get to a ratio that's a power of 2
10:16:47 <lament> i.e. no amount of fifths will ever add up to the same note modulo octave
10:16:56 <lament> i.e. the circle of fifths is not a circle at all
10:16:58 <oklopol> no offense, but i have a lecture in -1 minutes, and i can't leave if you're talking, so... :D
10:17:11 <oklopol> minute of silence, please? we can talk later
10:17:20 <oklopol> (not that i'm interested!)
10:17:20 <lament> i told you the math :)
10:17:28 <oklopol> yeah, and i asked
10:17:31 <oklopol> but i'm an idiot
10:17:34 <oklopol> that's no excuse
10:17:38 <oklopol> I GO!
10:17:39 <oklopol> ->
10:18:24 * lament goes to sleep
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11:09:28 <oklopol> lament: yeah true i was wrong, of course D scale would be the same as C, the point is not that, the point is exactly what you said, we just choose an arbitrary subset of the circle of fifths.
11:10:36 <oklopol> anyway the system is still stupid, splitting evenly is better
11:10:41 <oklopol> back to lecture ->
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12:18:46 <Mony> plop
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13:17:53 <ehird> hi oklopol
13:25:49 <oklopol> hi
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14:36:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, any progress on jitfunge?
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15:54:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: Unfortunately not; been busy with other, more mundane things. (Also away right now, must transport self to another place.)
16:03:57 <AnMaster> cya
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17:16:52 <ehird> hi ais523
17:17:01 <ais523> hi
18:19:26 <lament> oklopol: sure, 12-tone equal temperament has a ton of advantages, which is why everyone is using it
18:19:38 <lament> oklopol: but you shouldn't confuse it for "reality"
18:19:56 <lament> i.e. just because A# = Bb in equal temperament, doesn't mean it is "really so"
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18:24:35 <oklopol> lament: i can't admit i'm wrong, so i have really nothing to say here!
18:25:24 <lament> and the differences aren't purely theoretic
18:25:46 <lament> my hearing is nothing special but i can certainly hear the difference between an equal-tempered major third and a "real" major third
18:25:54 <oklopol> i realized what the truth was once i realized there's also G### etc.
18:26:07 <lament> yeah
18:26:20 <lament> the number of sharps and flats grows up to infinity
18:26:47 <lament> although it only rarely gets to 2 in actual music, and almost never to 3
18:27:00 <lament> in fact
18:27:15 <lament> some composers just disregard the whole thing and assume equal temperament
18:27:17 <ais523> how many sharps do you need before in a non-equal-tempered scale you end up back on the scale you started on
18:27:48 <oklopol> an infinite amount?
18:28:02 <ais523> oklopol: I'm not sure
18:28:18 <ais523> after all, a true sharp is + a certain frequency
18:28:19 <oklopol> (3/2)**m = 2**n
18:28:30 <ais523> if it's something like that, then you'll never end up on the scale
18:28:35 <ais523> it probably depends on the exact ratios
18:28:53 <oklopol> yes that's very probable :D
18:28:57 <oerjan> ais523: the pythagorean tuning, which i read about this morning, has 3/2 and 2
18:29:02 <oklopol> need to take teh dog out
18:29:18 <ais523> oerjan: that's for fifths and octaves, isn't it?
18:29:22 <oerjan> yes
18:29:23 <ais523> I'm wondering what it is for sharps
18:29:47 <oklopol> ais523: just jump in fifths?
18:29:57 <oklopol> gcd(12, 7) = 1
18:29:59 <oerjan> ais523: when you go up by 7 fifths, you reach the sharp of the original
18:30:02 <oklopol> dog ->
18:30:03 <ais523> ah, yes
18:31:02 <lament> chopin's fantasia impromptu
18:31:08 <lament> is in c# minor
18:31:28 <lament> and then the middle portion is in the major of the same key
18:31:31 <oerjan> also, they used 5/4 (iirc) for major third in some tunings, which is neither pythagorean nor equal-tempered
18:32:17 <lament> but instead of writing it in c# major, chopin wrote it in Db major
18:32:19 <oerjan> lament: the wp article said that major thirds were dissonant with pythagorean tuning, so was not used in european music after 15th century or so
18:32:30 <lament> which makes no sense at all, other than as a shortcut
18:32:35 <oerjan> *that tuning was
18:32:45 <lament> and because pianists are more used to reading Dbmaj than C#maj
18:32:52 <lament> and because they correspond to the same keys on the piano
18:33:09 <lament> so actual composers totally disregard this theoretical bullshit :)
18:33:54 <lament> oerjan: which article?
18:34:17 <oerjan> erm
18:35:54 <lament> pythagorean tuning?
18:36:15 <lament> this pic is nice
18:36:16 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Music_intervals_frequency_ratio_equal_tempered_pythagorean_comparison.svg
18:36:25 <oerjan> lament: that was it
18:36:49 <lament> aha, i see
18:36:57 <lament> "Because fifths in Pythagorean tuning are in the simple ratio of 3:2, they sound very "smooth" and consonant. The thirds, by contrast, which are in the relatively complex ratios of 81:64 (for major thirds) and 32:27 (for minor thirds), sound less smooth."
18:36:58 <oerjan> second last paragraph of Method section
18:37:05 <oerjan> yes
18:37:13 <lament> yeah, 81:64 does not sound like it would be nice :)
18:37:41 <lament> when you think too much about it, head explodes
18:38:00 <lament> there're all these true intervals and none of them are compatible with each other
18:38:57 <lament> say you're playing in C major
18:39:08 <lament> and you want to play the G chord
18:39:19 <lament> is the D the note a fifth above G, or a second above C+
18:39:23 <lament> s/C+/C?
18:41:07 * lament doesn't know the answer
18:41:28 <oerjan> 9/8 does not seem like it would have any close simpler fractions...
18:41:47 <lament> i think it should be the second above C
18:41:50 <oerjan> so the second probably _is_ two fifths up
18:41:53 <lament> because C is your tonal centre
18:42:13 <lament> oh, good point, it is
18:43:18 <lament> er no
18:43:21 <lament> fifth is 3/2
18:43:41 <oerjan> 3/2 * 3/2 / 2 = 9/8
18:43:49 <lament> er, right
18:44:51 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation
18:46:26 <lament> so G major is a bad example, but good examples are only a tiny bit more complicated, like going from C major to D minor
18:47:00 <lament> at that point you have to make a choice of whether to stay in C major and have a D minor chord that sounds wrong, or switch to a whole new set of intervals
18:47:20 <oklopol> hmm
18:47:44 <oklopol> i can clearly hear a few notes being wrong in the just intonation.
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18:48:20 <lament> if you play C major on the guitar
18:48:21 <oerjan> oklopol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enharmonic explains why you would want to use both A# and Bb in your notation, even with equal temper, because you want a scale to have all base letters different
18:48:28 <lament> assuming the guitar is tuned correctly
18:48:32 <lament> the E will sound off
18:49:00 <lament> so some guitarists actually detune the E and make it a just major third above C
18:49:05 <lament> which makes C major sound nicer
18:49:11 <lament> the problem of course is that all the other keys are fucked
18:49:25 <lament> if you stay in one key, though, it's better
18:49:36 <lament> so these difficulties are definitely not just theoretical
18:50:47 <oklopol> ugh, just intonation sounds ugly
18:51:08 <oklopol> how's the piano tuned?
18:51:12 <lament> equal
18:51:18 <oklopol> ah okay
18:51:26 <oklopol> well makes sense then that i find that most natural
18:51:28 <lament> almost everything is tuned equal
18:51:29 <lament> yes
18:51:41 <lament> but major thirds definitely sound wrong :)
18:51:54 <lament> they're not "calm" enough
18:52:19 <oklopol> in the comparison thingie, just intonation had a pretty hideous major third
18:52:39 <oklopol> unlike equal, which had, well, major third :|
18:52:44 <oklopol> but i should look more into this.
18:52:53 <oklopol> i've never really cared about this
18:53:10 <oklopol> which is why i don't know anything
18:53:23 <oklopol> anyway, see you must watch series.
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21:14:36 <AnMaster> hi ais523
21:14:56 <ais523> hi, btw I'm in a large argument in another channel atm so probably won't be paying attention for a while
21:15:23 <AnMaster> ais523, ok
21:28:55 <Slereah> Maybe you should imply that you had sexual national congress with the mother of your opponent.
21:34:31 * oerjan notes that "sexual national congress" has only one google hit, which is fake
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21:35:22 <oerjan> although it sounds like a rather large event
21:40:06 <ehird> Python 3000 is ready! The official release may not come until tomorrow, but Barry has tagged the source and is preparing the release. We've been waiting for this release for almost nine years. The earliest reference I can find is a message from Guido to python-dev in Jan. 2000.
21:40:25 <ehird> ^ cool.
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21:56:07 <lament> yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.
21:56:35 <ais523> lament: why are you yaying?
21:56:50 <lament> python 3k
21:56:55 <ais523> ah, ok
21:57:01 <ais523> I don't know much about python versions
21:57:21 <lament> it's something akin to perl 6
21:57:28 <ais523> oh
21:57:32 <ais523> I'm not sure if that's OK or oh dear
21:57:34 <lament> except not quite as ambitious, which is why it's actually out after 9 years
21:57:35 <ais523> rather depends on what it's like
21:57:57 <lament> it's basically python, just with some compatibility-breaking changes
21:58:44 <AnMaster> hm
21:59:08 <AnMaster> ais523, well I made progress with the bf optimizing, but the code is too messy
21:59:18 <AnMaster> so I probably won't make it too smart
21:59:24 <AnMaster> it is a nightmare to maintain.
22:00:18 <AnMaster> ais523, also the way the code currently looks it would be possible to change the emitting code to generate something else
22:00:22 <AnMaster> very localized to one file
22:00:30 <bsmntbombdood> cervix
22:00:31 <AnMaster> so generating bf could be done
22:00:34 <AnMaster> .D
22:00:36 <AnMaster> :D*
22:00:59 <ais523> it wouldn't be very optimised though I don't think
22:01:04 <ais523> you'd have to deoptimise it back into the original
22:01:05 <AnMaster> ais523, true
22:01:11 <ehird> http://www.python.org/ftp/python/3.0/
22:01:20 <AnMaster> ais523, however it could optimize lost kingdom slightly
22:01:43 <AnMaster> ais523, like dropping some non-needed [-], changing order of some stuff
22:01:44 <AnMaster> and such
22:01:54 <AnMaster> so it would slightly optimize it yes
22:02:56 <ehird> today, KIDS, we follow ehird as he tries to get a mathematica trial WITHOUT WAITING 2 BUSINESS DAYS FOR PEOPLE TO MANUALLY READ HIS REQUEST
22:03:01 <ehird> Silly ehird!
22:03:18 <Slereah> ehird : Download it negro
22:03:47 <ehird> Slereah: I was about to follow your advice, but I saw the all-important condition of being back so I won't, being white.
22:03:59 <ehird> (I tried to. Mathematica 7 hasn't made its way anywhere yet.)
22:04:13 <Slereah> Why do you need seven?
22:04:20 <Slereah> I mean, 6 is cool and all
22:05:17 <ehird> Slereah: I am a magical faery
22:05:19 <ehird> That is why.
22:05:37 <Slereah> You faery.
22:06:21 <ehird> hey ais523, i don't suppose your trial would work on a totally different OS and without a new key? :P
22:06:33 <ais523> ehird: no, it wouldn't
22:06:38 <ehird> damn
22:06:55 <ehird> oh well, time to see if wolfram acknowledge the existence of 1 FAKE STREET
22:07:18 <Slereah> maybe ais523 could ask mister Wolfram.
22:07:18 <oklopol> that's one fake street name
22:07:23 <Slereah> They're buddies!
22:07:31 <Slereah> "Hey dude, I proved your machine"
22:07:37 <Slereah> "Can you like give me a Mathematica?"
22:08:27 <ehird> Your Mathematica product trial request has been submitted and will be processed within three business days. In the meantime, you can explore all the latest features and complete documentation.
22:08:27 <ehird> Want help getting started with Mathematica? The Wolfram Mathematica Learning Center jump-starts the process with links to video screencasts; free online Mathematica seminars and presentations; "how-to"s and step-by-step examples; in-depth tutorials; thousands of free, ready-to-use models and demonstrations; and much more.
22:08:27 <ehird> If you have any questions about your Mathematica product trial, please contact us.
22:08:47 <ehird> Slereah: apparently the only mathematica thing ais523 got from it was a year trial
22:09:18 <Slereah> Well, then again, with his prize money, he could buy a bunch of Mathematica I guess
22:09:27 <Slereah> Not that much, really.
22:09:29 <Slereah> Like 12.
22:09:57 <ehird> Slereah: I believe he's said he used it to pay expenses :P
22:10:08 <Slereah> "Hookers and blow"?
22:12:43 <oklopol> sounds like ais alright.
22:28:39 <ehird> proto to implement the wormhole:
22:28:47 <ehird> return dummy value that stores expresions its used in
22:28:53 <ehird> when yu're forced to eval it, e.g. print out
22:28:56 <ehird> evaluate it
22:28:56 <ehird> umm
22:29:02 <ehird> the tll is actually just lazy evaluation
22:29:06 <ehird> except it's given to you pre-evaluation
22:29:07 <ehird> XD
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23:37:11 <ehird> pgimeno: you should make mandelbrot in paintfuck
23:37:12 <ehird> <<
2008-12-04
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04:08:01 <GregorR> JSMIPS crashes TraceMonkey 8-D
04:13:38 <Warrigal> Darn, irssi doesn't have infinite scrollback.
04:14:45 * Warrigal scrolls back before the beginning of time, thereby ending up at the end of time, where the history of the world is obscured by noise caused by the few remaining charged particles
04:16:22 * Warrigal scrolls back forward to Fermat's time
04:16:47 <Warrigal> Darn. His proof got truncated because the message was more than 512 characters long.
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05:38:27 <oklopol> Warrigal: you can change your nick as much as you want, but you cannot hide saying things like that.
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07:42:40 <AnMaster> Warrigal, hehe
07:54:00 <AnMaster> Warrigal, so they invented pastebins after Fermat's time then?
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10:30:29 <oklopol> o
11:37:03 <oklopol> ehird: where's counter?
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12:52:34 <ehird> WAIT
12:52:38 <ehird> wait
12:52:40 <ehird> oklokok:
12:52:42 <ehird> you USE the counter??
12:53:29 <oklokok> i play it occasionally
12:55:14 <ehird> xD
12:55:17 <ehird> i'll get it back up sometime
12:55:48 <oklokok> so cool
12:55:52 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol.
12:56:00 <oklopol> it's a good game, you see.
13:05:48 -!- ehird has set topic: nice blog. i thoguht you were a website though. im a cracker. i dont know how to hack. are you a hacker or cracker? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
13:06:52 <ehird> oklopol: what I'll do is make version 4
13:07:04 <ehird> because, srsly, who doesn't want charts of their clickering?
13:07:28 <ehird> oklopol: would you mind starting from 0 if you got FUCKING CHARTS?!?!?!
13:08:58 <oklopol> that'd be awesome, no, i wouldn't mind
13:09:05 <oklopol> iz for greater good.
13:10:07 <ehird> ya
13:10:22 <ehird> oklopol: the problem is scaling, i mean, it's hard to imagine a good storage system for this
13:10:33 <ehird> i'm thinking
13:10:37 <ehird> an in memory buffer of like 1000 clicks
13:10:43 <ehird> that's appended to the main file every now and then
13:10:55 <ehird> and the file's split into liek 10MB chunks
13:11:09 <ehird> dunno how to nicely index stuff so that you can go to a user page and get infos fast
13:11:12 <ehird> 's a hard problem
13:12:02 <ehird> haha, my little counter will revolutionize databases :>
13:13:06 <oklopol> mmhmm?
13:13:14 <ehird> oklopol: mwhat
13:14:32 <ehird> oklopol: basically
13:14:43 <ehird> i have to invent a hyper-fast append-only storage system
13:14:49 <ehird> that has indexes on just about every column
13:14:59 <oklopol> indexeeeeeeeeeeees
13:15:05 <ehird> and it has to scale to over 200 appends per second
13:15:14 <ehird> (that's what the original counter peaked at, 200 clicks/sec)
13:15:20 <ehird> but
13:15:22 <ehird> it could go even higher
13:15:23 <ehird> and
13:15:29 <ehird> it has to support billions and billions of rows
13:15:30 <ehird> and shit
13:15:31 <ehird> :D
13:15:41 <oklopol> revolution!
13:15:49 <ehird> oklopol: wat
13:16:01 <oklopol> ehird: stop asking me questions
13:16:06 <ehird> oklopol: why
13:16:11 <oklopol> you know i can't answer them.
13:16:28 <oklopol> "everything that's blue is type information"
13:16:46 <ehird> lol
13:17:08 <ehird> oklopol: i'm calling the storage system revolution now
13:17:09 <ehird> :P
13:18:13 <oklopol> "the yellow boxes are more like placeholders"
13:18:19 <ehird> what lang is this
13:19:01 <oklopol> i'm not sure, i'm attending this lecture, but i'm not really interested in the whole subject, so i just pick up random fragments and irc.
13:20:46 <ehird> people = revolution.Schema(
13:20:46 <ehird> name='people',
13:20:46 <ehird> properties=[
13:20:46 <ehird> ['id', revolution.INDEXED],
13:20:46 <ehird> ['name', revolution.INDEXED],
13:20:48 <ehird> ['password'],
13:20:50 <ehird> ]
13:20:52 <ehird> )
13:21:05 <ehird> stores in data/people.{1,2,3,4,...,100} etc
13:22:24 <oklopol> hmm, do you think i'd manage to read real world haskell, or would i just burn it after a few pages?
13:24:00 <ehird> oklopol: it's pretty good
13:24:01 <ehird> it's not like
13:24:04 <ehird> enterprisey whizbang haskell
13:24:21 <ehird> it's: here's how you structure a haskell program that uses the interwebs and file io and stuff nicely while still being all neatfunctional
13:24:43 <ehird> the people who wrote it are #haskell regulars and stuff, some work at galois (company thing that uses haskell).
13:24:55 <oklopol> hmm. okay well spoken, i don't think i need more.
13:25:13 <oklopol> i mean yeah k i'll read it
13:25:32 * oklopol is desperately trying to leave python :P
13:26:02 <ehird> oklopol: yeah python is really easy to do shit in but it's just so regular
13:27:41 <oklopol> yes. and it's much too verbose for my taste.
13:27:54 <oklopol> i mean for algorithm-related stuff
13:28:10 <oklopol> which is why i'd like to learn stuff like J
13:28:20 <oklopol> "so, inheritance, do you guys know this concept?"
13:28:44 <oklopol> the lecturer is somekinda businessman, not our usual prof
13:28:58 <oklopol> i bet he's a noob, but i haven't been listening
13:30:01 <ehird> one thing I've learned is that oop sucks, basically.
13:30:30 <oklopol> inheritance is a pretty wild horse yes.
13:30:55 <ehird> oop people are just idiots, they say that encapsulation and hiding is important and objects cant peek at others internals
13:30:58 <ehird> but inheritance is exctly that
13:31:28 <oklopol> well that depends, some believe inheritance should be done entirely in an encapsulativousal fashion
13:32:26 <oklopol> anyway true, peeking inheritance doesn't make much sense unless you're writing the inheritance tree as a whole.
13:35:08 <oklopol> hmm. okay now i have absolutely no idea what's happening, i could just as well just get out :)
13:35:36 <ehird> def add(*args):
13:35:36 <ehird> self.cache_log.append(args)
13:35:43 <ehird> oklopol: fast :-P
13:36:07 <oklopol> what's that now
13:36:29 <ehird> """
13:36:29 <ehird> A fast append-only storage system that stores a ton of stuff
13:36:29 <ehird> in memory before serializing it to chunked files.
13:36:29 <ehird> Does indexes galore.
13:36:30 <ehird> """
13:36:36 <ehird> callsin' it revolution after your nonsense line
13:36:38 <ehird> using it for the counter
13:36:42 <ehird> as it keeps a log of every click
13:36:49 <ehird> and i need lots of indexes for statistics
13:36:58 <oklopol> nonsense?
13:36:58 <oklopol> :o
13:37:05 <ehird> when you just said revolution out of nowher
13:37:06 <ehird> :P
13:37:25 <oklopol> no in fact i think it was good context for dat.
13:37:54 <ehird> 2 seconds to add a million records, cool, though its just an array append :P
13:37:57 <ehird> and I need to do the serialization
13:38:01 <ehird> and indexes
13:38:34 <oklopol> yes it's not very surprising you can do nothing to a lot of data in no time
13:41:09 <ehird> oklopol: its doing things with a list
13:41:09 <ehird> :P
13:42:18 <oklopol> yes, a sophisticated flavor of nothing
13:43:00 <ehird> hmm oklopol how would you code an index?
13:43:02 <ehird> that is
13:43:07 <ehird> how would you serialize a mapping of
13:43:11 <ehird> string=>string
13:43:16 <ehird> so that you can access it without loading it all into memor
13:43:17 <ehird> y
13:43:21 <ehird> and without searching through the whole file
13:43:48 <oklopol> whhhell.
13:43:51 <oklopol> there are tonsa ways
13:44:01 <oklopol> don't ppl usually use b for file stuff
13:44:11 <ehird> wat?
13:44:25 <oklopol> err b-tree
13:45:15 <oklopol> i think that's the canonical database data structure
13:45:21 <oklopol> or b+, same thing really
13:45:23 <ehird> oklopol: yeah how would you write one of thems out to disk so you can lookup without reading in the whole file, personally?
13:45:40 <ehird> well, multiple b-trees, i'm splitting files every now and then
13:46:06 <oklopol> well no need really
13:46:09 <oklopol> but go for it
13:47:16 <ehird> oklopol: yah but how would you
13:47:17 <ehird> :P
13:47:21 <ehird> i can't think of an eleganty way
13:49:29 <oklopol> err.
13:49:47 * oklopol mutters something about a higher-level operating system
13:50:14 <ehird> oklopol: i feel you bro :{
13:50:18 <ehird> ^ not gay
13:50:31 <oklopol> a b-tree isn't that hard to make serialized. that's pretty much how it was designed
13:50:46 <ehird> yeah but
13:50:54 <ehird> i can't think how to look up without scannign through the whooooooooooole tree
13:50:54 <ehird> :{
13:50:57 <ehird> hash tables work fine in memory
13:50:58 <oklopol> but i haven't tried it, can't really guide you mucho.
13:51:03 <ehird> but i can't think how they'd work nice just scanning on discccc
13:51:24 <oklopol> err. with a b-tree in the file, you'd just have to traverse the tree down once, log n
13:53:37 -!- Asztal has joined.
13:54:03 <oklopol> hmm. gotta leave
13:54:23 <oklopol> -----> !!
13:54:25 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )").
13:54:32 -!- oklopol has joined.
13:58:47 <ehird> wb oklopol
13:58:47 <ehird> :P
14:13:52 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out).
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14:43:20 <ehird> hokay record format:
14:43:30 <ehird> hmm
14:43:43 <ehird> i can't use \0\0 as terminator and \0 as sep because that doesn't allow blank fields
14:43:46 <ehird> oh well, I'll just use \0 and \1
14:45:31 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
14:45:40 <Slereah_> I just stole a Matlab module from my university :o
14:45:43 <Slereah_> Am I a bad man?
14:47:06 <Asztal> I'm telling
15:02:50 <Slereah_> Well, it's not really stealing
15:02:56 <Slereah_> Considering that they still have it
15:03:01 <Slereah_> It is COPYWRONG D:
15:08:55 <ehird> Copywrong
15:08:56 <ehird> brilliant
15:09:05 <ehird> I am calling piracy that from now on
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16:04:23 <ehird> I want a filesystem that versions absolutely everything automatically. :(
16:04:31 <ehird> EVERYTHING.
16:09:30 -!- jix_ has joined.
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16:49:23 <ehird> <8b>5dff5ba9-d4e0-4cc8-a70d-7ad97616ec12<0>name<0>$2a$12$2FavSY4z8BQ1.S7gUtp1ye0W/.HyHngFpxfQU76mrkSDv5InU1OZ.<0>penguinofthegods@gmail.com<0>2008<0>12<0>4
16:49:31 <ehird> ^ where <hex> is that unprintable char
16:49:45 <ehird> multiple items, of course, just being stuck after each other:
16:49:48 <ehird> <8b>5dff5ba9-d4e0-4cc8-a70d-7ad97616ec12<0>name<0>$2a$12$2FavSY4z8BQ1.S7gUtp1ye0W/.HyHngFpxfQU76mrkSDv5InU1OZ.<0>penguinofthegods@gmail.com<0>2008<0>12<0>4<8b>5dff5ba9-d4e0-4cc8-a70d-7ad97616ec12<0>name<0>$2a$12$2FavSY4z8BQ1.S7gUtp1ye0W/.HyHngFpxfQU76mrkSDv5InU1OZ.<0>penguinofthegods@gmail.com<0>2008<0>12<0>4
16:49:58 <ehird> (it's <length>record<0>record<0>...)
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17:00:03 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
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17:08:45 <ehird> hi ais523
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17:10:28 <ais523> ehird: "revolution" sounds like a Windows codename version
17:10:35 <ehird> heh, kinda
17:10:45 <Slereah> Is the revolution that it works okay?
17:10:54 <ehird> instantrimshot.com
17:11:16 <Slereah> *slide whistle*
17:11:35 <ais523> ehird: why do you keep writing that?
17:11:45 <ehird> ais523: because Slereah made a terrible joke?
17:11:48 -!- Judofyr has quit (Client Quit).
17:11:59 <ais523> ehird: yes, but so far it's made no sense in any context, why the .com?
17:12:05 <ehird> ais523: http://instantrimshot.com/
17:12:06 <ehird> turn on flash :-P
17:12:18 <ehird> (it's a red button that, when clicked, produces an instant e-rimshot at your convenience.)
17:12:26 <ais523> if it requires flash, no point in visiting it
17:12:28 <ais523> for me
17:12:37 <ehird> thus the :-P
17:13:08 <Slereah> ais523, why do you hate freedom?
17:13:49 <ais523> Slereah: I may be happier with Flash once there's an alternative implementation that isn't the biggest cross-platform security hole in existence
17:13:55 <ehird> gnash?
17:13:57 <ehird> instantrimshot.com
17:14:03 <ais523> not really sure if it's ready yet
17:14:11 <ehird> thus the instantrimshot.com
17:14:15 <ais523> besides, the sort of websites that use Flash aren't the sort of websites I like ot visit
17:14:22 <ais523> and also, SVG was standardised first
17:14:25 <ais523> and does all the same things
17:14:36 <ais523> just people insist on using it only as a vector graphics format for some reason
17:14:40 <ehird> and is 100000x slower in every modern browser :P
17:14:54 <ais523> ehird: well, there's a huge problem with SVG, which is that nobody implements it properly
17:14:59 <ehird> lol
17:15:02 <ais523> ironically, the only sane implementation I've seen was by Adobe
17:15:23 <ais523> but they stopped supporting it after a while, and it was never open-sourced
17:15:55 <Slereah> ais523
17:16:01 <Slereah> Maybe YOU SHOULD DO IT :o
17:16:13 <Slereah> So that you may see our awesome flash videos.
17:16:34 <ais523> too busy right now, also Flash is big and complex and inherently insecure
17:16:50 <ais523> I mean, what sort of format designed for websites should be able to use the client's webcam by default?
17:16:51 <Slereah> Why inherently?
17:17:05 <ais523> Flash is sort of like Java with a worse security model, in terms of its capabilities
17:17:06 <Slereah> Well, it doesn't have to use it.
17:17:14 <Slereah> I mean, was it able to do that ten years ago?
17:17:21 <Slereah> I'm not sure webcam existed back then
17:18:21 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:18:31 <Slereah> Maybe you should like get an old version of Flash :o
17:18:54 <Slereah> Although I'm not sure you could fit it in Firefox. But then again, you can just download the flash and watch it.
17:19:06 <ehird> ais523: um
17:19:10 <ehird> it asks permission for webcam
17:19:10 <ehird> :P
17:19:16 <ais523> it does nowadays
17:19:27 <Slereah> Get an old one then :o
17:19:34 <Slereah> So that you may see our hilarious links!
17:19:46 <Slereah> http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/shii
17:19:51 <Slereah> HEY GUYS, REMEMBER THE INTERNET?
17:20:52 * oerjan vaguely recalls something about it
17:21:19 <Slereah> oerjan : It was more commonly known as the "Information super highway"
17:21:26 <Slereah> Or the "World Wide Webeverse"
17:21:33 <oerjan> ah yes it was something Al Gore invented
17:21:55 <Slereah> Using nothing but tubes.
17:21:59 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
17:22:11 <oerjan> dude, it's tubular
17:22:28 <ais523> replacing the internet with a big truck would save on bandwidth
17:22:42 <Slereah> Come on dude, the internet isn't a truck.
17:22:43 <oerjan> but not on latency
17:22:45 <Slereah> It's
17:22:49 <Slereah> a series of tube.
17:23:29 <oerjan> it shares the tubes with the sewer system
17:23:40 <oerjan> sometimes there is overflow, thus we get spam
17:24:12 <Slereah> The internet is nothing but a statistical experiment.
17:24:26 <oerjan> it gradually worsens as global warming causes sea level to rise, increasing flood incidents
17:24:30 <Slereah> what would happen if a million monkeys typed on a million typewriters?
17:24:35 <Slereah> So far, no Shakespeare.
17:25:11 <oerjan> Slereah: alas, it's logarithmic, just 12*log 10 increase
17:25:21 <oerjan> compared to a single monkey
17:25:23 <oerjan> um wait
17:25:28 <oerjan> 6*log 10
17:25:42 <oerjan> for a moment i assumed the monkeys had a million typewriters each
17:27:13 <Slereah> But they have only four hands, oerjan
17:27:16 <Slereah> Well, and a tail
17:27:20 <Slereah> It wouldn't be useful
17:27:37 <oerjan> only spammers have that, i don't think they have produced any shakespeare yet, unless they copied it
17:28:12 <Slereah> Iunno
17:28:19 <Slereah> Do you know those spams with random words?
17:28:24 <Slereah> Some can be pretty poetic
17:28:28 <oerjan> hm yeah
17:28:38 <oerjan> but still, the problem is it's logarithmic
17:28:40 <Slereah> Lemme find an awesome one
17:28:52 <ais523> the CAPTCHA on Wikimedia often ends up poetic
17:29:03 <oerjan> doubling the number of monkeys only increases by 1 bit the length of useful results
17:29:07 <Slereah> http://balinares.livejournal.com/54645.html
17:30:41 <oerjan> hm a spam poetry contest
17:30:51 <oerjan> the winner gets 1 month off his jail time
17:31:06 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
17:31:10 <Slereah_> <:|
17:31:13 <Slereah_> >:|
17:31:36 <oerjan> oerjan> hm a spam poetry contest
17:31:41 <oerjan> oerjan> the winner gets 1 month off his jail time
17:32:03 <ais523> Slereah_: so are you wearing a dunce cap or a pointy hat, or are you just angry
17:33:17 * oerjan wants a mitochondrial particle accelerator
17:33:26 -!- olsner has joined.
17:33:36 <jayCampbell> like a jedi?
17:37:35 <oerjan> hm
17:37:50 <oerjan> you're thinking of midichlorians
17:40:46 <oerjan> <ehird> I want a filesystem that versions absolutely everything automatically. :(
17:40:59 <ehird> uh oh oerjan pun time
17:41:02 <oerjan> i recall VMS did that
17:41:10 <ehird> yeah i think so
17:41:14 <oerjan> no, just ancient memory
17:41:48 <oerjan> i believe nvg has an OpenVMS server somewhere for the nostalgic members
17:42:46 <oerjan> when i joined university, the computer system was VMS
17:43:17 <oerjan> and nvg's first server was a VAX running Ultrix
17:45:20 <oerjan> so i logged onto my account on the university's VMS system to connect to that server's MUD. that's how i got started on the internet.
17:49:45 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
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18:02:09 -!- oklopol has joined.
18:03:17 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
18:04:38 <Slereah_> D:<
18:07:21 <ehird> hi oklopol
18:14:32 -!- Slereah has joined.
18:14:33 <Slereah> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
18:15:17 <oerjan> maybe you could use one of those bouncer thingies?
18:15:29 <Slereah> wat
18:15:52 <oerjan> like ehird and ais523 do/used to do
18:15:58 <ehird> do
18:16:05 <ehird> i'll give Slereah an account if he wants
18:16:22 <Slereah> I have no idea what you're talking about
18:16:23 <ais523> Slereah: they avoid quitjoin-spamming channels when your connection goes wrong
18:16:41 <ais523> oerjan: I'm still on a bouncer
18:16:45 <ais523> Slereah: basically, you connect to a server
18:16:49 <ais523> and it connects to IRC on your behalf
18:16:52 <ehird> Slereah: you connect to an irc server
18:16:54 <ehird> that's always connected
18:16:57 <ehird> so you never go offline
18:16:59 <ehird> and when you reconnect,
18:17:01 <ais523> even if you become disconnected from it, it's still connected to Freenode
18:17:03 <ehird> everything you missed gets sent back at you
18:17:07 <ehird> ~end~
18:17:11 <oerjan> ais523: i just had this impression i've seen you not on one recently
18:17:21 <ehird> oerjan: when he's using mibbit?
18:17:25 <ais523> oerjan: I've been on one all along, explaining why I haven't disconnected for ages
18:17:35 <ais523> even when I've been on mibbit as ais523_, ais523's still connected from the bouncer
18:17:38 <ais523> just I'm not connected to it
18:17:43 <oerjan> ah
18:17:52 <Slereah> Well, I guess it would be nice.
18:18:24 <ehird> Slereah: the downside is that I get access to your nickserv password :-P
18:18:30 <ehird> well
18:18:32 <ehird> actually
18:18:34 <ehird> that can be avoided
18:18:41 <ehird> by just doing it manually
18:18:50 <ehird> but i could just log in as you anyway. although i haven't done that once.
18:18:55 <Slereah> ehird
18:19:00 <ehird> Slereah
18:19:02 <Slereah> I have no nickserv password
18:19:06 <Slereah> At least I don't use it
18:19:16 <ehird> sweet, I'ma impersonate you next time you drop offline
18:19:19 <Slereah> Freenode doesn't require you to identify
18:23:30 -!- Slereah- has joined.
18:23:37 <Slereah-> NEVER HAVE I BEEN MORE ANGRY OR ORANGE
18:24:08 <ais523> Slereah-: if you were Nickserv-identified, you could get your nickname back from the ghost Slereah
18:24:29 <Slereah-> Could I?
18:24:33 <ehird> yes.
18:24:38 <ehird> /ns ghost Slereah PASSWORD
18:24:41 <ehird> will kill slereah
18:24:46 -!- Slereah has quit (Nick collision from services.).
18:24:51 <ehird> tada
18:24:52 <Slereah-> HOLY SMOKE, A MIRACLE
18:25:06 <Slereah-> But it still mean I have to type it every goddamn time
18:25:18 <Slereah-> It's easier to wait it to drop
18:25:37 <ehird> use a less secure password
18:25:37 <ehird> :P
18:25:49 <Slereah-> My password is not secure.
18:25:51 <Slereah-> Like not at all.
18:26:03 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
18:26:10 <Slereah-> It's a fucking IRC password dude
18:26:15 <Slereah-> I only use it to...
18:26:26 <Slereah-> Well, I don't remember why I need it for on freenode
18:27:12 <ais523> Slereah-: to stop other people doing this:
18:27:14 -!- ais523 has changed nick to Slereah.
18:27:25 <Slereah-> OH SHI-
18:27:27 -!- Slereah has changed nick to ais523.
18:27:30 <Slereah-> MY OWN CLONE!
18:27:38 <Slereah-> NOW NEITHER OF US WILL BE VIRGINS!
18:27:39 <Slereah-> ais523
18:27:46 <Slereah-> You know why that's a stupid argument?
18:27:49 <ehird> i think he stopped being your clone
18:28:02 <Slereah-> Because Freenode doesn't actually require you to enter your password
18:28:10 <Slereah-> I never enter it, and they never kick me out
18:28:20 <ehird> people can check with nickserv if you're logged in.
18:28:26 <ais523> Slereah-: some things do require an entered password
18:28:31 <Slereah-> Yes.
18:28:35 <ais523> for instance, many people won't receive /msgs from you if you aren't identified
18:28:37 <Slereah-> But not the things I usually do
18:28:46 <ais523> and you need one to kick off someone else who's using your nick
18:28:52 <Slereah-> It's also why I actually registered it
18:28:56 <Slereah-> For those rare instances.
18:30:35 <Slereah-> Plus, you can impersonate me if you want.
18:30:51 <Slereah-> To see for yourself, just for one moment, how awesome it is to be me.
18:39:50 -!- oerjan has changed nick to Slereah.
18:40:00 <Slereah> ooh, flashy
18:40:05 -!- Slereah has changed nick to oerjan.
18:40:20 <Slereah-> You're a fraud!
18:40:23 <Slereah-> A phony!
18:40:25 <Slereah-> A fake!
18:40:29 <Slereah-> An impostor!
18:40:49 <oerjan> you're hyphenated!
18:41:07 -!- jix_ has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep").
18:41:51 -!- Slereah- has changed nick to Slereah.
18:41:54 <Slereah> AM I?
18:43:08 * oerjan picks up the dropped hyphen and adds it to the swatter -----###
18:43:51 <ais523> aargh
18:48:18 <Slereah> ehird
18:48:23 <Slereah> What's the source of the topic
18:48:25 <ais523> wait, which Slereah is which?
18:48:43 <Slereah> I am Pedro Sanchez Villalobo.
18:49:26 * oerjan is suspicious, that doesn't sound french
18:49:43 <Slereah> Neither does your FACE
18:49:59 <oklopol> o
18:50:14 <oerjan> now i'm even more suspicious, maybe you're really GregorR
18:50:33 <Slereah> Is Gregor a mootxican?
18:51:24 <oerjan> hm "Pedro Sanchez Villalobo" gives only one google hit, in french
18:51:33 <oerjan> i guess it's french after all, then
18:51:35 <Slereah> Weird.
18:51:53 <Slereah> IIRC, it was the name of the ape general in Critter Commando
18:51:56 <Slereah> Lemme check
19:00:50 <Slereah> "The government in Los Estados Unidos Banana de Republico is like an industrial machine, 3000 revolutions a minute!"
19:05:03 <GregorR> The United States Banana of Republic?
19:05:22 * oerjan is reminded of the Junta boardgame
19:05:47 <ais523> ugh, not that, I played it once and the other players got annoyed with me for not getting into the spirit of the thing
19:05:51 <ais523> I played it far too honestly
19:05:51 <lament> villalobos
19:06:00 <ais523> admitted secret political donations, that sort of thing
19:06:34 <oerjan> that was "Republica de los Bananas", though
19:07:56 <oerjan> ais523: well, annoying the other players _is_ part of the spirit of the game :D
19:08:05 <oerjan> maybe not in that way, though
19:09:06 <GregorR> Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmoxie.
19:12:17 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:13:37 <oerjan> hmph as i suspected, banana is feminine in spanish
19:15:30 <Slereah> It's pretty phallic looking though!
19:15:39 <oerjan> you'd think
19:18:21 <oerjan> i vaguely recall occasionally reading about some muslims having trouble with it
19:18:52 <oerjan> not allowing women to eat it undivided, that sort of thing
19:19:03 <Slereah> Ouch.
19:19:09 <Slereah> It hurts my penis to think of it
19:28:43 <Slereah> Sooooo
19:28:50 <Slereah> Anyone knows the source of the topic?
19:30:18 -!- jix has joined.
19:31:50 <oerjan> google gives: http://www.angryhacker.com/blog/archive/2008/10/09/is-google-the-new-real-networks.aspx
19:33:18 <Slereah> Heh.
19:33:22 <Slereah> It's true. Real Player must die.
19:33:44 <Slereah> Although it's full of nostalgia.
19:33:46 <Slereah> You know something?
19:34:00 <Slereah> Real player was the first format I ever got pirated TV shows.
19:34:11 <Slereah> Back in... 2001?
19:34:23 <Slereah> South Park episodes, under 20 MB.
19:34:31 <Slereah> Smallest one is barely 6MB
19:34:34 <Slereah> For 20 minutes.
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20:01:32 <oerjan> http://brainlessworld.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/dehydrated-water.jpg
20:03:02 <Slereah> Heh.
20:03:03 <Slereah> Cute.
20:05:15 <ehird> http://www.buydehydratedwater.com/
20:05:43 <ais523> is that what you get from mineral/tap water if you remove all the H2O and are left only with the minerals dissolved in it?
20:05:51 <ehird> ais523: no, it's water without the wate
20:05:51 <ehird> r
20:06:06 <ehird> http://buydehydratedwater.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=5 mega gift indulgence pack
20:06:16 <ehird> http://buydehydratedwater.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=9 do it yourself guide
20:06:21 <Slereah> Yo dawg I heard you like water so I put water in yo water so you can drink while you drink
20:06:28 <ehird> http://buydehydratedwater.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=8 book of practical uses
20:07:10 <Slereah> This book would be a great gift.
20:07:16 <Slereah> Sort of a "fuck you" gift
20:20:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
20:25:45 <Slereah> Hello KING
20:25:50 <Slereah> How's the kingdom?
20:26:16 <ais523> Slereah: for some reason that seemed crazily sarcastic to me
20:26:21 <ais523> even though probably it wasn't meant to be
20:26:39 <Slereah> Hey, I'm no king hater dude
20:26:52 <Slereah> I'm more royalist than the king!
20:28:36 -!- atrapado has joined.
20:33:41 <Sgeo> Should I work on updating PSOX to Py3K?
20:33:56 <ais523> Sgeo: I'm not entirely certain anyone will care either way
20:34:01 <ehird> Sgeo: MP
20:34:02 <ehird> NO
20:34:09 * Sgeo was kidding
20:34:17 <ehird> Sgeo: DO NOT JOKE ABOUT SUCH MATTERS DAMNIT
20:34:39 <ehird> you'll give me a heart attack
20:34:40 <ehird> sheesh
20:35:24 <ais523> ehird: why would it be that disastrous?
20:35:35 <ehird> ais523: NEVER SAY ANOTHER WORD TO ME ABOUT PSOX
20:35:38 <ehird> :O
20:35:45 <ais523> ehird: you need help, obviously
20:35:50 <ais523> there's nothing wrong with mentioning PSOX
20:35:54 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
20:36:05 <ehird> I WILL KILL YOU WHILE YOU SLEEP
20:36:12 <ais523> don't, please
20:36:21 <ais523> that would be kind of weird, scary and illegal
20:36:29 <ehird> AND PSOX
20:36:30 <Sgeo> ehird, would it give you pain to remind you that you contributed to PSOX?
20:36:35 <ehird> Sgeo: yeah, one line
20:36:38 <ehird> when i thought you got some sanity
20:36:40 <ais523> which line was it?
20:36:47 <ehird> actually wait
20:36:49 <ehird> ais523: more like -50 lines
20:36:54 <ehird> as i removed the stupid-shit safety crap
20:36:54 <ehird> :P
20:37:01 <ais523> oh, you added a negative number of lines
20:37:15 <ehird> i improved it by making there be less of it
20:37:37 <Sgeo> You also gave me the names of some stuff in the type system
20:37:52 <ehird> no
20:37:57 <ehird> i advocated getting rid of the type system
20:39:25 <oklopol> stop fighting let's all be friends
20:39:34 <ehird> oklopol: you just don't get PSOX
20:39:54 <oklopol> yes my one weakness :'(
20:42:46 -!- oerjan has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i improved it by making there be less of it.
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21:21:49 * ehird considers switching to haskell as his go-to language
21:23:19 <sorear> at least add it... it royally sucks for most sorts of I/O problems but it's great for the calculator job above bc
21:23:46 <sorear> pretty much all my one-off problems are solved with either perl or haskell
21:24:13 <ehird> I used to use haskell quite a lot; I just need to get more to grips with structuring actual programs in it.
21:24:22 <ehird> Right now I generally just hack something up in Python.
21:26:41 <Warrigal> Hi, sorear.
21:26:54 <sorear> Hi?
21:27:11 <ais523> hey, sorear's been in here all along and I didn't notice
21:27:26 <sorear> ais523: turn off join muting
21:27:38 <sorear> I've been here all of 1:30
21:27:49 <ehird> I forget who sorear is? :P
21:28:00 <sorear> A person.
21:28:06 <ehird> I kind of inferred that much.
21:28:07 <sorear> Not a terribly remarkable one.
21:28:21 <Warrigal> Something like Stephan O'Rear, if I remember correctly.
21:28:24 <ais523> I don't have it on, but my bouncer misses joins sometimes anyway
21:28:39 <ais523> I know sorear from TAEB
21:28:41 <sorear> something like that
21:28:42 * ehird grrs at haskell for not letting me use the field name 'name' in two `data`s
21:28:49 <ehird> oh, taeb, right
21:29:10 * sorear greps his giant pile of logs for 'ihope'
21:29:26 <Warrigal> I'm in there somewhere.
21:29:39 <sorear> #haskell, figures
21:29:53 <ehird> Wtf, Warrigal is connected from normish
21:29:53 <ehird> XD
21:30:44 <Warrigal> And that's how I've been connected for a couple days, a feat I could never manage on home computers.
21:32:06 <ehird> Damnit, my haskell code treats into right-margin-indent hell and over-paren hell again.
21:32:12 <ehird> Maybe I should try, you know, splitting up my functions.
21:32:38 <sorear> If it's not a one-liner it _probably_ needs to be factored
21:32:55 <ehird> I'm terrible at factoring stuff.
21:36:11 <ehird> Heh. I factored my code and it looks even uglier.
21:36:34 <ais523> you should see some of my Prolog
21:36:38 <ehird> That's some feat.
21:36:43 <ais523> recently I've been doing quite a lot of defactoring
21:36:46 <ais523> for imperativy stuff
21:36:52 <ais523> lots of nested parens for ; and ->
21:36:57 <ehird> http://hpaste.org/12698 <-- Awful, awful, awful looking.
21:38:22 <oerjan> might try some list comprehensions
21:38:44 <ehird> oerjan: Well, the thing that really sticks out before the other ugly is initialCurrencies
21:38:52 <ehird> having names in a separate line all by itself, and the crazy-indent of the Currency values.
21:40:24 <Sgeo> Why are rates Maybe Integers?
21:40:37 <Sgeo> You're tracking currencies that aren't in the PBA?
21:40:40 <ehird> Sgeo: The PBA can conceivably be given assets that aren't currencies. :P
21:40:47 <ehird> You could do it right now, fr'instance.
21:40:51 <Sgeo> oh
21:40:59 <ehird> Although technically I do not have to track them, I feel like I should.
21:41:49 * Sgeo should learn Haskell, well, at least know it more than just knowing a stupid pun
21:41:55 <ehird> I should show that to the #haskell folks so that they kill me.
21:42:50 <ehird> Someone rate this idea.
21:43:07 <Sgeo> 10
21:44:49 <oerjan> ehird: i annotated, although maybe it got too wide
21:45:13 <ehird> oerjan: a bit better, but everything below initialcurrencies is still blergh
21:45:32 <ehird> "Transform your code into pointless form to make it beautiful. :)" -- stunning advice of #haskell
21:45:46 <ehird> oerjan: also, it occurs to me that the list comprehension is actually pretty unneeded there
21:45:53 <ehird> i mean, you're not actually using any list comprehension features.
21:46:12 <oerjan> just for prettyness, of course
21:46:17 <Sgeo> What would pointfree form actually change?
21:46:26 <ehird> Sgeo: it would make it look awful.
21:46:44 <Sgeo> I don't even see where in the code the changes would be
21:46:50 <Sgeo> But remember I'm a Haskell n00b
21:46:54 <oerjan> (\k -> k ++ " credit") == (++ " credit")
21:47:03 <lament> everything should be as pointless as possible, but no pointlesser.
21:47:32 <oerjan> that's at least one place where pointless is better
21:47:44 <ehird> oerjan: oh, true
21:48:29 <ehird> also oerjan
21:48:32 <ehird> yours is over 80 charactrs
21:48:33 <ehird> :(
21:48:40 <ehird> i.e. i have to do more pig-ugly wrapping
21:49:52 <oerjan> right i was afraid Currency { ... } did not fit even with starting further left
21:50:50 <AnMaster> hm
21:50:51 <AnMaster> hi
21:50:56 <AnMaster> ais523, hello
21:50:58 * Sgeo doesn't worry about wrapping in his Agora proposals, obviously
21:51:30 <ehird> {{@pl \i -> show i ++ " crop"
21:51:30 <ehird> [21:50] lambdabot:
21:51:30 <ehird> (++ " crop") . show}}
21:51:35 <ehird> "your code will be better if you make it more obscure."
21:53:18 <lament> ehird: why are your credits notes?
21:53:52 <ehird> lament: It's for Agora Nomic. Notes are the rules-sanctioned non-transferrable currency. Note Credits are a hack that makes them sort-of-transferrable in practice.
21:54:00 <ehird> (user-made)
21:54:05 <lament> ah.
21:54:07 <ehird> (er, player-made :p)
21:54:31 <lament> why are some sharps and some flats?
21:54:48 <ehird> lament: the most common usage that I can see. Annoyingly for someone who is musically retarded (me), people like switching between the two in actions.
21:54:59 <lament> hehe
21:55:22 <Sgeo> Let's all just use #
21:55:28 <lament> i'd rather keep it consistent
21:55:31 <lament> in the program at least
21:55:44 <ehird> lament: would you go with sharps or flats :P
21:55:58 <lament> i would throw a coin
21:56:04 <lament> and then i would crawl around for hours trying to find it
21:56:12 <lament> and then i would forget why i'm doing that
21:56:17 <lament> and then i'd go drink some tea
21:56:23 <Sgeo> ehird, ooh, look, nice
21:56:29 <ehird> lament's life sounds exciting
21:56:55 <lament> about as exciting as garfieldminusgarfield
21:58:19 <ehird> so, in trying to make my code prettier with #haskell's help, i have made it uglier
21:58:21 <ehird> WOO HOO
21:58:34 <Sgeo> ehird, http://hpaste.org/12698#a4 is pretty
21:58:55 <ehird> it would have been nice if someone linked me to that
21:59:00 <ehird> but errrrr
21:59:02 <ehird> that's not pretty.
21:59:09 <ehird> that's ugly.
21:59:15 <Sgeo> How is it ugly
21:59:22 <Sgeo> You want more than whitespace stuff changed?
21:59:39 <lament> it's ugly because it's in Haskell.
21:59:40 <ehird> it's way too slim and vertical for no real reason, it's inconsistent in its indentation and it's hard to read
21:59:48 <ehird> lament: yes, we know, you hate haskell
22:00:30 <Sgeo> ehird, it's easy for me to read
22:00:38 <ehird> maybe you're blind.
22:00:59 <Sgeo> Easier than the others, at least
22:01:03 <oerjan> it's definitely inconsistent, some bug there
22:01:36 <oerjan> one option is not to start to the right of the where
22:01:41 <ehird> <ozy`> Sgeo: wait, are you Sgeo?
22:01:52 <ais523> ?
22:01:58 <ehird> from #haskell
22:02:12 <ais523> and was he Sgeo?
22:02:17 <ehird> I don't know :P
22:02:32 <ehird> I HATE HASKELL-MODE AND ITS GODDAMN "WHAT PEOPLE NEVER INDENT SUBEXPRESSIONS"
22:02:48 <ehird> TYPING FOUR SPACES MANUALLY! WHAT! THIS IS 2008
22:04:13 <lament> don't use haskell then
22:04:30 <ehird> gee, is lament talking about haskell sucks
22:04:31 <ehird> that's new
22:04:54 <oerjan> ehird: new try
22:05:20 <oerjan> what the
22:05:23 <ehird> oerjan: that's some serverely messed up intendation
22:05:25 <ehird> also, http://hpaste.org/12698#a6 my new try
22:06:00 <oerjan> i don't know what happened with the crops and credits lines
22:06:03 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p252251216.txt
22:06:13 <ehird> oklopol: make my haskell look nice
22:06:32 <lament> convert it to C#
22:06:32 <oerjan> somehow i managed to make the same bug as that consonanty guy
22:06:39 <ehird> lament: no
22:07:09 <oerjan> oklopol: NO THAT IS FORBIDDEN
22:10:50 <ehird> so lament which language do YOU use :P
22:14:06 <ehird> hok
22:14:09 <ehird> hey oklopol
22:14:14 <ehird> DOT ACTION 2
22:14:28 <ais523> INTERCAL!
22:16:29 <oklopol> :)
22:16:38 <oklopol> oh it's short for action, of course...
22:16:49 <oklopol> i just thought it was "dot, act 2"
22:16:50 <oklopol> xD
22:16:54 <ehird> XD
22:17:24 <oerjan> would you want to meet someone in a dark alley who thought that INTERCAL was beautiful?
22:17:48 <ais523> quite possibly, they'd be less likely to hurt me than someone who had never heard of INTERCAL
22:17:58 <oklopol> i agree with ais523
22:18:18 <ais523> fwiw, they'd be quite likely to know who I was
22:18:37 <oerjan> lessee, would you use a plastic surgeon who thought that INTERCAL was beautiful?
22:18:56 <oerjan> the risk of ending up like a picasso painting...
22:19:39 <oklopol> that's another clear yes
22:20:04 <oerjan> i was afraid of that
22:20:22 <ais523> I'm not convinced I'd use a plastic surgeon at all
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22:20:44 <oklopol> well me neither
22:21:14 <oklopol> i'm pretty enough <3
22:21:28 <fizzie> oklopol: Not as pretty as INTERCAL!
22:21:50 <ehird> "That pig ugly code is perfect" -- #haskell
22:22:10 <ais523> ehird: everyone seems to disagree with your sense of aesthetics is the problem
22:22:22 <ehird> ais523: do you think that code looks nice?
22:22:31 <ais523> which one?
22:22:51 <ehird> http://hpaste.org/12698#a6
22:23:07 <ais523> it's a bit wide
22:23:20 <ais523> things like ["C", "C#", "D", "D#", "E", "F", "F#", "G", "Ab", "A", "Bb", "B"] look bad on one line
22:23:24 <ehird> <yitz> Cale: looks like something to do with optimizing political gain in return for payoffs
22:23:31 <ehird> -- #haskell on what my code goes
22:23:32 <ais523> because they don't fit in with their surroundings
22:23:48 <ais523> do they know about nomic?
22:23:55 <ehird> i haven't told them a thing
22:23:56 <ehird> XD
22:24:21 <ehird> bah
22:24:24 <ehird> Sgeo: you ruined all the fun
22:24:27 <ehird> that's all you ever do
22:24:33 <oerjan> hm, what do you do with water rights in agora anyway? :D
22:24:37 -!- ehird has left (?).
22:24:47 <ais523> oerjan: they prevent ranches drying up
22:24:52 <ais523> ranches generate numbers
22:24:56 <ais523> which can be used to score points
22:25:11 <ais523> WRV are generally considered to be the most useful stable Agoran asset at the moment
22:26:28 <oerjan> aha
22:27:25 <Sgeo> <yitz> it's a script kiddie bot?
22:27:39 <Sgeo> I post the link to it's page on the Notary wiki
22:27:40 <Sgeo> <yitz> that screen shot looks like scores of simultaneous ssh login attempts
22:27:40 <ais523> someone should disillusion them about that
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22:43:17 <Warrigal> Who's been including D# along with Ab and Bb?
22:44:46 <lament> clearly they should have infinitely many notes :)
22:45:26 * oerjan swats lament -----###
22:45:35 <oerjan> just to test the new hyphen, you see
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22:47:42 <lament> it looks just like the old hyphen
22:48:17 <ais523> lament: well yes, it was a perfect fit
22:48:26 <ais523> there's one more hyphen in the swatter than before
22:48:35 <ais523> oerjan stole it off Slereah-
22:48:44 <ais523> well, took it as it was unused
22:50:34 <Slereah> I took your wallet, since you weren't using it
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2008-12-05
00:13:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
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01:22:08 <MizardX> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p561556134.txt :)
01:26:24 <Sgeo> ?
01:28:27 <Sgeo> ValueError: generator already executing
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03:15:42 <GregorR> My cat seems to be hibernating for the winter :P
03:15:58 <GregorR> She woke up to eat today, then went back to sleep. That was her entire day :P
03:17:41 <Warrigal> Doesn't count.
03:17:53 * Warrigal pushes the big red button
03:19:18 <Sgeo> http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/dumbbell this button?
03:23:10 <jayCampbell> that was nice
03:23:26 <jayCampbell> would have been cooler if he'd written the sign himself before passign out
03:26:41 <Sgeo> But that would mean he woke up and saw a blank sign?
03:29:04 <Sgeo> Unless he was briefly conscious when going to the other side, and drew on that sign, then woke up forgetting?
03:29:08 <Sgeo> That'd be less dramatic though
03:29:13 * Sgeo pokes Warrigal
03:32:46 <Sgeo> TmsT animations are awesome
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04:24:28 <Warrigal> Mm.
04:24:32 <Warrigal> TmsT?
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11:50:15 <nooga> don't you know is there a fast way to obtain file's path from inode?
11:53:44 <ais523> nooga: which one
11:53:48 <ais523> an inode can have more than one path
11:54:00 <ais523> and IIRC, there's no way to find its paths apart from by searching the entire filesystem
11:54:08 <ais523> most filesystems can't easily determine the other end of a hard link for that reason
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13:54:30 <pgimeno> nooga: find
13:59:31 <ehird> oklopol: hi
14:06:02 <oklopol> hi
14:10:37 <ehird> hmm
14:10:40 <ehird> i forgot what i was gonna say
14:10:41 <ehird> :DDDDDD
14:16:13 <oklopol> :)
14:16:22 <oklopol> i needs to eat now
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14:23:25 <ehird> wb ais523
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14:42:31 <oklopol> ^bool can i write stuff here
14:42:37 <oklopol> can't, huh.
14:42:42 <oklopol> well anyway, should i watch?
14:42:44 <oklopol> ^bool
14:42:44 <fungot> Yes.
14:42:44 <ais523> ^bool
14:42:44 <fungot> Yes.
14:42:54 <ais523> watch what?
14:42:55 <oklopol> that's quite a yes.
14:43:05 <oklopol> i'm watching family guy, i don't really have anything else atm
14:43:35 <oklopol> seen these episodes like 20 times each, so this is mostly so i don't have to do anything else.
14:44:04 <oklopol> i'm very tired, and i have a lot to read so i can't really sleep the 4 hours i need
14:44:24 <ais523> why not just read, then
14:44:52 <oklopol> i'd have to open the browser.
14:45:17 <oklopol> i doubt you could ever understand just how lazy i can be.
14:46:14 <ais523> oklopol: would it help if I sent you a link over IRC you could click on?
14:46:33 <oklopol> yes
14:46:52 <oklopol> but then there's the password i'd have to type and all that.
14:48:28 <ehird> oklopol: but you're typing on irc
14:48:36 <oklopol> yes
14:48:38 <oklopol> so?
14:48:43 <ehird> ;P
14:48:46 <ehird> *:P
14:49:13 <oklopol> that's not productive. i can do that no matter how tired i am.
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15:22:49 <ehird> http://www.baconbuzz.com/ <-- the bacon reddit now has a theme. and a domain.
15:22:59 <ehird> when will the madness end?!
15:23:29 <ais523> is a bacon reddit a better or stupider idea than lolcode?
15:25:16 <ais523> hmm... someone put an ASCII rickroll on reddit
15:25:20 <ais523> just pasted the lyrics to the song
15:25:25 <ais523> somehow I don't think that counts
15:25:36 <ehird> ais523: WE'RE NO STRANGERS TO LOVE
15:25:43 <ehird> nowhere is safe
15:26:35 <ais523> that's hardly a proper rickroll...
15:27:19 <ehird> ais523: sorry, I'll continue
15:27:23 <ehird> YOU KNOW THE RULES, AND SO DO I
15:27:28 <ehird> A FULL COMMITMENT'S WHAT I'M THINKING OF
15:27:31 <ais523> still, video or it doesn't coutn
15:27:31 <ehird> YOU WOULDN'T GET THIS FROM ANY OTHER GUY
15:27:33 <ais523> *count
15:27:36 <ehird> I JUST WANNA TELL YOU HOW I'M FEELING
15:27:38 <ehird> GOTTA MAKE YOU UNDERSTAND
15:27:39 <ais523> also, IRC has /ignore
15:27:43 <ehird> NEVER GONNA GIVE YOU UP, NEVER GONNA LET YOU DOWN
15:27:47 <ais523> but then, I suppose you could just stop watching the rickroll
15:27:48 <ehird> ais523: web has /etc/hosts
15:27:49 <ais523> after a bit
15:27:58 <ais523> ehird: /etc/hosts is no good at blocking rickrolls
15:28:03 <ehird> also, I recited all of that from memory
15:28:07 <ehird> ais523: youtube.com 127.0.0.1
15:28:08 <ais523> as everyone knows there are an infinite number of rickrolls on the internet
15:28:14 <ehird> would snap most of them
15:28:16 <ais523> but you only have finitely much /etc/hosts space
15:28:22 <ais523> but agreed, most of them are on youtube
15:28:22 <ehird> well, true.
15:28:28 <ehird> Rick Astley theory,.
15:28:36 <ais523> come to think of it, it would be pretty hard to write a rickroll that would actually show up on my computer
15:28:44 <ais523> you'd have to use .ogg, SVG or javascript
15:28:52 <ais523> and even then noscript would block all those by default
15:29:00 <ehird> SVG rickroll
15:29:01 <ehird> brilliant
15:29:04 <ais523> so you'd have to persuade me to let them through as well, although that might not be hard
15:29:08 <ehird> ais523: actually
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15:29:23 <ehird> just use the table-full-of-1px-large-elements trick
15:29:26 <ehird> and a meta refresh
15:29:29 <ehird> dunno about the music, though
15:29:40 <ais523> meta refresh? for /video/?
15:29:52 <ais523> are you mad? no connection has a latency low enough to get a plausible frame rate like that
15:30:06 <ais523> part from possibly if the browser and the server were the same computer
15:30:10 <ehird> ais523: who says it can't be laggy?
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15:30:17 <ais523> it would be a very very slow rickroll
15:30:20 -!- WOLD has left (?).
15:30:26 <ehird> it displays rick astley on yoru screen, and he acts out the video to never gonna give you up
15:30:34 <ehird> the only requirement is something that can be recognized as the song
15:30:40 <ehird> maybe sheet music along the bottom
15:31:05 <ais523> hmm... /me invokes rule 34 on rickrolls
15:31:09 <ais523> although I don't want to see the results
15:31:28 <ehird> surely exists
15:31:32 <ais523> yes, surely
15:31:41 <ais523> that's what rule 34's all about
15:31:48 <ehird> well, i mean
15:31:51 <ais523> even without the rule, though, "that must exist" is an ingrained reflex
15:31:55 <ais523> rule 34 just formalises it
15:32:00 <ehird> the projection into digital form must surely exist
15:32:01 <ehird> already
15:32:02 <ais523> it's inductive reasoning
15:32:04 <ais523> and yes
15:32:41 <ehird> google shows nothing
15:32:59 <ais523> ehird: now everyone's going to wonder why you were googling rickroll porn
15:33:09 <ais523> and Google will show you rickroll-porn-related adverts
15:33:11 <ehird> because of the previous lines? :P
15:33:20 <ais523> because of that one search
15:33:28 <ehird> i hope it shows up on the google big lcd with searches in realtime
15:33:33 <ais523> also, how did you know all those lyrics?
15:33:43 <ais523> from being rickrolled a lot?
15:33:52 <ais523> (I assume you don't actually like the song, although I don't know)
15:34:07 <ehird> being rickrolled a lot, yes
15:34:18 <ehird> although the song is catchy in a kind of horrid, earworm-like "MAKE IT STOP" way
15:35:30 <ehird> ugh, rickroll porn is on youtube. i should have guessed. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
15:35:37 <ehird> [note - thinly veiled rickroll]
15:35:55 <ais523> ehird: is it rickrolling someone to link them to a rickroll when they ask for something rickroll-related?
15:36:14 <ehird> ais523: i think that's a meta-rickroll
15:36:41 <ais523> I suppose the purest case would be:
15:36:45 <ehird> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qmPmIJyi0sc&feature=related what the fuck, a 2 minute long guide on how to rickroll, with actual terrible acting (not a rickroll, I pledge so)
15:36:54 <ais523> <ais523> can you link me to a rickroll? <ehird> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
15:36:58 <ais523> dose that count as rickrolling?
15:37:02 <ais523> *does
15:37:03 <ehird> no, it's expected
15:37:04 <ehird> UNLESS
15:37:06 <ehird> you said it as a joke
15:37:12 <ehird> and it was in the context of you actually wanting another video
15:37:15 <ehird> then the meta-irony would kick in
15:37:40 <ais523> well, what if you didn't link me to a rickroll
15:37:44 <ais523> could that be rickrolling?
15:37:54 <ais523> what about:
15:38:02 <ais523> <ais523> can you link me to a rickroll? <ehird> no, but see http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 instead, you might be interested in it
15:38:07 <ais523> is that rickrolling?
15:38:17 <ehird> ais523: if you expected it to be that video, it's not
15:38:19 <ehird> if you didn't, it is.
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16:44:28 <AnMaster> ais523, hi
16:44:33 <ais523> hi
16:44:58 <AnMaster> ais523, much to do in "rl" now?
16:45:28 <ais523> still yes in theory for the rest of the week
16:45:36 <ais523> I'm relaxing a bit today, having just completed one assignment
16:45:48 <AnMaster> also I just realized you can over-engineer "stupid" school tasks even outside programming, or such
16:45:53 <AnMaster> music in fact
16:46:41 <AnMaster> at least here you have to take a short course in either music or painting during high school
16:46:44 <AnMaster> now I took music
16:46:54 <ais523> I took a full GCSE in music, only got a B though
16:47:16 <AnMaster> and it was a task to fill in the missing notes, with mostly 4/4 (a few places with 3/4 too)
16:47:32 <AnMaster> and one was enough free form to allow you to fill in mostly anything you wanted
16:47:37 * AnMaster put in some crazy stuff there
16:47:42 <AnMaster> it is perfectly legal
16:47:50 <AnMaster> but I wonder what the teacher will think
16:48:03 <AnMaster> putting a small 3 over a group of notes is so fun :D
16:48:25 <AnMaster> it messes up the whole timing calculation
16:48:39 <ais523> AnMaster: is it written in 8/8 time?
16:48:52 <AnMaster> ais523, no, in 4/4 sadly, that couldn't be changed
16:49:04 <AnMaster> otherwise I would have used something unusual for it too
16:49:04 <jayCampbell> you can change time mid-song
16:49:18 <AnMaster> jayCampbell, well it said "put in *notes* to make the timing right"
16:49:25 <AnMaster> so I didn't dare do that
16:49:31 <jayCampbell> Note: change time here
16:49:36 <ais523> are you messing with grace notes too?
16:49:41 <ais523> apoggieturas are fun
16:49:45 <ais523> because they have a positive length
16:49:52 <ais523> equal to half the length of the next note
16:50:10 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I don't know the English terms for these, just the Swedish
16:50:18 <AnMaster> apoggieturas == the dots after the notes?
16:50:20 <ais523> no
16:50:26 <ais523> apoggietura's a type of grace note
16:50:32 <ais523> so is acciacatura
16:50:41 <ais523> acciacaturas are zero-length notes
16:50:55 <ais523> whereas apoggieturas have a positive length equal to half the length of the note after, which has its length halved
16:51:17 * AnMaster googles to find an image
16:51:41 <AnMaster> aha, *those*
16:51:47 <AnMaster> no I didn't use any grace notes
16:51:55 <AnMaster> mainly I would have been too confused myself
16:52:16 <oklopol> AnMaster: putting a small 3 over a group of notes is so fun :D <<< wut?
16:52:17 <ais523> put in any chords where different notes in the chords had different lengths?
16:52:30 <ais523> oklopol: it makes each note in the group last 2/3 as long
16:52:34 <oklopol> liek, three-in-place-of-two
16:52:36 <oklopol> yeah
16:52:52 <oklopol> that just felt like too much hype over such a common construct
16:52:52 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I did that
16:52:59 * oklopol used about a hundred of those today
16:53:06 <AnMaster> ais523, one issue is the paper you had to fill in on was rather small print
16:53:11 <AnMaster> so it was hard to fit anything
16:54:47 <AnMaster> I couldn't fit this (just giving lengths): 1/8, 1/8, 1/8, 1/8+dot, 1/16, 1/4, 1/8 <binding line to next bar> | 1/16
16:54:53 <AnMaster> too little space for the first
16:55:17 <ais523> that's why you use grace notes, they're half the physical size
16:56:15 <AnMaster> ais523, couldn't have fitted it in there either, the pencil would have to be sharper than possible for it
16:56:32 <ais523> use an electron microscope inkjet priter, then
16:56:42 <AnMaster> ;P
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16:57:55 <Mony> plop
16:58:09 <oklopol> what will I eat this weekend?
16:58:11 <oklopol> *i
16:58:12 <ais523> </plop>
16:58:23 <ais523> oklopol: you corrected good grammar to bad grammar?
16:58:28 <oklopol> ais523: yes.
16:58:33 <oklopol> it was not my style
16:59:07 <oklopol> however
16:59:13 <oklopol> tell meeee!
16:59:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, Something with pasta maybe?
16:59:35 <ais523> oklopol: I suggest lentil soup
16:59:50 <AnMaster> ais523, lentil(?) soup with pasta?
16:59:57 <ais523> no, not with pasta
17:00:00 <AnMaster> even though I don't know what lentil is, that sounds awful
17:00:02 <ais523> just lentil soup in general
17:00:18 <ais523> AnMaster: lentils are a type of vegetable, they're sort-of like peas but much smaller and orange
17:00:29 <AnMaster> ah found it by interwiki
17:00:31 <AnMaster> linser
17:00:38 <ais523> also, the shells are poisonous, and they're a pain to get off because they're only about 3mm across
17:00:39 <AnMaster> well I never tasted them
17:00:47 <ais523> so you go to a shop and buy lentil soup which has been made properly
17:00:53 <ais523> it works well with tomatoes
17:01:09 <oklopol> how about something with meats?
17:01:11 <AnMaster> ais523, I prefer home made food
17:01:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, pasta with Swedish meatballs?
17:01:28 <oklopol> :D
17:01:32 <oklopol> well can you hand me some
17:01:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, no because I ate them
17:01:43 * AnMaster loves that combo
17:01:44 <oklopol> :<
17:01:59 <AnMaster> had it the day before yesterday
17:02:09 <AnMaster> home made pasta and home made meatballs of course
17:02:11 * oklopol waits for ais523 to mention he's vegetarian
17:02:18 <AnMaster> oklopol, is he?
17:02:18 <oklopol> *they're
17:02:18 <AnMaster> ok
17:02:22 <ehird> oklopol: eat your finger, it's delicious
17:02:26 <ehird> yes, your single finger
17:02:29 <ehird> humans only have one finger, y'know
17:02:40 <ais523> oklopol: I'm not
17:02:40 <oklopol> AnMaster: i don't know whether he is. why do you ask?
17:02:52 <ais523> but there are vegetarian things I like anyway, like lentil soup
17:03:00 <ais523> many of them go well with meat
17:03:14 <ais523> ratatouille does, for instance
17:03:14 <oklopol> ais523: oh, right, you just don't eat junk food
17:03:24 <oklopol> aaaanyway, that you eat weirdly! ;)
17:03:27 <ais523> oklopol: yep, pretty rare for me to eat junk
17:03:48 <oklopol> ehird: i'm not a human, i'm a lizard
17:03:50 <ehird> I'm pretty sure eating junk would make you gay. http://instantrimshot.com/ http://pleasemakeitstop.com/ http://atleastoerjanspunswerefunny
17:03:51 <ehird> .com/
17:03:51 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know what the opposite of vegitarian would be...
17:03:54 <AnMaster> meatitarian?
17:04:00 <ais523> carnivore
17:04:03 <AnMaster> s/vegi/vege/
17:04:06 <AnMaster> ais523, heh
17:04:22 <AnMaster> well I'm not that much, but I dislike fruit and such
17:04:30 <ais523> I like fruit, and salad
17:04:44 <ais523> I'm strange, I tend to eat healthily via liking the food, rather than for any health reason
17:05:46 <ehird> i'm breatharian!!
17:05:48 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia
17:05:51 <ehird> :P
17:07:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I fall in the second category
17:14:12 <oklopol> food doesn't have squat to do with health, the way our bodies evolve over time is all due to the brain.
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17:14:25 * oklopol believes
17:14:47 <ehird> well yes, but oklopol, you believe in things you think are false
17:14:48 <ehird> :P
17:15:14 <oklopol> how preposteriorly paradogmatic.
17:15:23 <AnMaster> paradogmatic?
17:15:27 <oklopol> yes.
17:15:32 <AnMaster> what does that mean?
17:15:38 <ais523> that isn't a real English word I don't think
17:15:54 <AnMaster> Did you mean: define:paradigmatic
17:15:55 <ais523> but the feeling I get from it is sort of like next to a strong opinion
17:15:56 <oklopol> maybe not, but you know what i meant.
17:16:01 <AnMaster> No definitions were found for paradogmatic.
17:16:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, no I don't
17:16:18 <oklopol> or not, i don't care :)
17:16:19 <ais523> back-translating from the Latin, it means something along the grounds of "not exactly insisting on a strong opinion, but doing something similar and parallel"
17:16:21 <AnMaster> Did you mean: define:pre posteriorly
17:16:21 <AnMaster> No definitions were found for preposteriorly.
17:16:26 <AnMaster> no clue about that
17:16:29 <ehird> paradogmatic: a paragliding, mechanical dog
17:16:30 <ais523> that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense
17:16:48 <ehird> also known as AWESOME
17:16:52 <ais523> AnMaster: "preposteriorly" isn't a real word, but I can back-translate it easily, it means "in a before-afterwards sort of way"
17:17:05 <AnMaster> ais523, that doesn't make sense either
17:17:08 <ais523> well, no
17:17:18 <oklopol> ais523: yes, exactly what i was going for
17:17:19 <ais523> but "before the afterwards" is almost a defined concept
17:17:23 <AnMaster> oklopol, so what did you mean? In common normal words
17:17:38 <ais523> I think oklopol was deliberately coining oxymoronic words to confuse us
17:17:43 <oklopol> AnMaster: actually preposteriorly is there just to explain the latter word.
17:17:50 <AnMaster> oxymoronication?
17:17:53 <AnMaster> or?
17:18:01 <AnMaster> oxymoronicasion?
17:18:03 <AnMaster> hm
17:18:05 <AnMaster> no idea
17:18:09 <ais523> oxymoronic = contradicting itself
17:18:11 <ais523> that is a real word
17:18:14 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I know
17:18:21 <AnMaster> but I was trying to make a word for:
17:18:27 <ehird> aquaidiotic
17:18:32 <AnMaster> "coining oxymoronic words to confuse"
17:18:36 <ais523> ehird: "water stupid"?
17:18:36 <oklopol> oh my god. is it healthy to write a song and then listen to it all day in awe
17:18:39 <AnMaster> wouldn't that be "oxymoronication"?
17:18:40 <AnMaster> like
17:18:41 <ais523> oklopol: yes
17:18:45 <ehird> ais523: :D
17:18:53 <AnMaster> You are oxymoronicating that!
17:18:55 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
17:18:56 <ais523> how very orogenic of you
17:19:20 <ais523> (btw, that is a real word, but hardly a very common one, it means "with a tendency to create mountains")
17:19:30 <AnMaster> Definitions of orogenic on the Web:
17:19:30 <AnMaster> * Pertaining to deformation of a continental margin to the extent that a mountain range is formed.
17:19:32 <AnMaster> ais523, yes
17:19:36 <AnMaster> but what did you mean
17:19:44 <AnMaster> in that meaning?
17:19:54 <ais523> I didn't, I was just throwing in a rare word because it fit
17:19:58 <ais523> it wasn't even a metaphor or anything
17:19:58 <AnMaster> saying "how very orogenic of you" to oklopol I guess?
17:20:00 <AnMaster> or to who?
17:20:04 <ais523> I just said it in general
17:20:06 <AnMaster> ah
17:20:07 <ais523> knowing it was meaningless
17:20:09 <AnMaster> well
17:20:15 <ais523> well, meaningful but pointless
17:20:20 <AnMaster> ais523, would it be "oxymoronication" or "oxymoronicasion"?
17:20:21 <oklopol> i feel pretty orogenic listening to this song.
17:20:31 <ais523> AnMaster: probably the first
17:20:33 <AnMaster> ok
17:20:38 <ais523> but I prefer "oxymoronification"
17:20:42 <oklopol> (7 guitarrrs)
17:20:50 <AnMaster> ais523, ah may indeed be better
17:20:53 * ais523 waits for oklopol to create a mountain
17:21:00 <oklopol> ais523: not literally.
17:21:07 <AnMaster> would it be, "you are oxymoronificing that sentence"?
17:21:08 <AnMaster> or what
17:21:13 <oklopol> mountains are massive majestetic beings.
17:21:21 <AnMaster> can't make out what the verb of that noun would be
17:21:35 <ais523> orogenising
17:21:45 <ais523> not that that's at all a useful word
17:22:02 <AnMaster> ais523, well would it be "oxymoronificing" or what?
17:22:16 <ais523> oh, oxymoronifying
17:22:23 <ais523> the noun was actually derived from that verb
17:22:29 <AnMaster> oh
17:22:29 <AnMaster> ok
17:23:00 <AnMaster> ais523, a pitty you can't combine any number of words into a single word in English
17:23:35 <oklopol> okay i'll listen to this for the third time, *then* i'll do something more productive
17:23:44 <AnMaster> it is so fun to watch any document editor try to insert hypens in a word spanning three lines
17:23:56 <AnMaster> last I checked even tex has troubles with it
17:24:13 <AnMaster> had*
17:24:27 <AnMaster> you can do that in Swedish btw
17:24:41 <oklopol> i recall trying to make word infloop from making automatic reformattings
17:24:55 <AnMaster> oklopol, "infloop"?
17:24:57 <ais523> "a word spanning three lines", either you have a large font or a small page or that's worse than German
17:24:59 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes.
17:25:00 <oklopol> infloop.
17:25:04 <ais523> AnMaster: infinite loop, presumably
17:25:10 <oklopol> yes, i use that all the time
17:25:11 <ais523> I often abbreviate it to infiniloop
17:25:13 <AnMaster> ais523, well it was constructed to be long
17:25:28 <AnMaster> it isn't common
17:25:28 <ais523> but you can make Word loop quite well by typing =rand(200,99) into it and pressing return
17:25:35 <ais523> that's a finite loop, but on slow hardware it can take a while
17:25:36 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean a valid word
17:25:53 <oklopol> ais523: interesting trivia, at least according to our lecturer, that feature was added by a finnish coder.
17:26:02 <oklopol> (iirc)
17:26:05 <AnMaster> haha
17:26:07 <AnMaster> infloop
17:26:10 <AnMaster> that would be fun:
17:26:11 <oklopol> (so very reliable ! :P)
17:26:16 <AnMaster> ifl
17:26:18 <AnMaster> so you have
17:26:19 <AnMaster> ifl
17:26:21 <ais523> oklopol: presumably it's to generate lots of data quickly as a test
17:26:25 <AnMaster> as a keyword in a language
17:26:25 <oklopol> ais523: yes
17:26:30 <AnMaster> that you use for the main loop
17:26:37 <AnMaster> would be confusingly similar to if
17:26:40 <ais523> anyway, one thing I've always wondered: why rand
17:26:50 <ais523> it's nothing to do with random number generation at all
17:26:55 * AnMaster ponders a C-like esolang but with all keywords redefined to something unexpected
17:26:59 <oklopol> ais523: random content
17:27:07 <ais523> it isn't even random content
17:27:11 <ais523> it's deterministic content
17:27:12 <AnMaster> if = in fail
17:27:13 <AnMaster> that is
17:27:13 <oklopol> random doesn't have to mean unpredictable.
17:27:15 <AnMaster> for exceptions
17:27:17 <AnMaster> so
17:27:20 <oklopol> it doesn't have to be nondeterministic.
17:27:23 <AnMaster> hm
17:27:31 <oklopol> it has to be "some random shit".
17:27:41 <AnMaster> 9999999999999999999999999999999999...
17:27:43 <AnMaster> odd rng
17:27:44 <AnMaster> ;P
17:27:48 <oklopol> (okay maybe a forth time, cuz it's so short)
17:28:43 <oklopol> (i occasionally have some trouble perfecting passages with three main melodies simultaneously, so process is kinda slow)
17:33:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, that sounds like way more advanced than me
17:33:41 * AnMaster has troubles writing music with more than 1 main melody (+ chords)
17:34:09 <ais523> AnMaster: there's a famous Dilbert cartoon about that
17:34:11 <oklopol> well i am fairly good at this, at least as far as pleasing *myself* goes ;)
17:34:34 <ais523> "And this is the random number generator." "Nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine..." "Are you sure that's random?" "That's the problem with randomness, it's hard to be sure."
17:34:57 <oklopol> well, people tend to consider my songs either pretty good or fucking insane, rarely bad.
17:36:19 <oklopol> (oklopol goes "wow the composer hid that one theme here, i didn't even notice on my first three listenings! :ooo" at the song :D)
17:37:09 * oklopol tried to at least stop talking about it
17:37:28 <oklopol> i love talking about my accomplishments, but i hate it when i talk about them.
17:37:50 <oklopol> i wish i could tell everyone about them, see the reaction, then make them forget.
17:38:18 <oklopol> superpowers, i want
17:40:32 <oklopol> ^bool
17:40:32 <fungot> Yes.
17:41:33 <ehird> oklopol: i get into that paradox a lot
17:41:39 <ehird> praise me but don't remember you praised me k!
17:41:52 <oklopol> haha
17:41:58 <ehird> also, give us the song oklopol
17:41:59 <ehird> :P
17:42:07 <oklopol> it's not finished
17:42:14 <ehird> give it anyway XD
17:42:22 <oklopol> i don't think i will...
17:42:44 <ehird> >:(
17:43:36 <oklopol> ehird: anyway yeah that's it, obviously i want glory, but i don't want people to think i'm a self-loving egoist mesexual, which i most certainly am.
17:43:44 <ehird> "mesexual" XD
17:43:50 <oklopol> :-)
17:43:54 <oklopol> well yeah okay i'm not that
17:43:54 <Slereah-> I am mesexual
17:44:04 <Slereah-> I just performed an act of mesexuality
17:44:34 <ehird> tmi Slereah-
17:44:49 <oklopol> did you... did you just make a masturbation joke? that was so unexpected i just had to make sure i got it right
17:44:53 <oklopol> ^bool
17:44:53 <fungot> No.
17:45:19 <Slereah-> It was not a joke :(
17:48:09 * oklopol listens to another song of his, and it's much less divine :<
17:48:09 <ehird> oklopol: it's Slereah-, why are you surprised?
17:51:12 <oklopol> ehird: are you trying to sarcastrated my comment?
17:51:17 <oklopol> *sarcastrate
17:51:23 <ehird> ?
17:51:29 * oklopol hates failing jokes that are already too complex to understand
17:52:36 <ehird> hi GregorR
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18:09:10 <oerjan> you're in a maze of twisty internet memes, all alike.
18:09:20 <ais523> oerjan: been logreading?
18:09:53 <oklopol> didn't have to look far
18:10:03 <oerjan> that was just for the topic
18:10:24 <oerjan> otherwise, i'm just starting
18:11:08 <oerjan> i usually log in before reading logs, so i know where to stop
18:14:40 <oerjan> <ais523> but you only have finitely much /etc/hosts space
18:15:10 <ais523> oerjan: well, yes
18:15:18 <ais523> there are an infinite number of rickrolls, how could you block them all?
18:15:26 <oerjan> clearly it should be a system call or something, so you could do it programatically
18:15:35 <Slereah-> Well, he is no stranger to love
18:16:47 <oerjan> hm you could make a dns service
18:17:12 <oerjan> here.domain.put.rickrolltest.com
18:17:57 <oerjan> similar to some anti-spam blackhole lists
18:18:15 <ais523> it's easy enough, just have a static page returning "true"
18:18:21 <Slereah-> Well, you know, you can always make a new rickroll link
18:18:49 <oerjan> i guess a proper test needs the full URL
18:19:04 <oerjan> there's probably a firefox plugin to block rickrolls :D
18:19:12 <ehird> oerjan: http://willitgivemeup.com/youtube.com/?v=3489768f7dsf
18:19:30 <ehird> true = normal page
18:19:32 <ehird> false = rick astley alert
18:19:39 <ehird> it could just analyze all videos it could find
18:19:48 <ais523> http://youtube.com.willitgivemeup.com/?v=3489768f7dsf seems neater to me for some reason
18:20:08 <ais523> hmm... you could have a rickroll-blocking proxy, I suppose
18:20:12 <oerjan> oh it doesn't exist
18:20:15 <ehird> ais523: just use greasemonkey
18:20:21 <ais523> and people would send encrypted rickrolls to try to get round it
18:20:24 <ehird> when you hit a page, it hits willitgivemeup.com
18:20:27 <ehird> and asks it
18:20:32 <ehird> admittedly, that's a privacy issue
18:20:37 <ehird> you could restrict certain domains, I guess
18:20:39 <ehird> wait
18:20:40 <ais523> what if the page checked for the IP
18:20:43 <ehird> it wouldn't hit it quick enough
18:20:43 <ehird> damn
18:20:53 <ehird> ais523: make it download the video locally
18:20:56 <ehird> then send it for analysis
18:20:56 <ais523> and served different content depending on whether it came from willitgivemeup.com or a user's main part
18:21:15 <ehird> your computer downloads the video
18:21:16 <ais523> also, how do you tell programmatically if a video is a rickroll or not
18:21:19 <ehird> then willitgivemeup.com analyzes it
18:21:32 <ehird> ais523: well, just do some analysis to see if it's the video or a trivial changing of it
18:21:37 <ehird> and then check the audio
18:21:38 <ehird> try and analyze it
18:21:40 <ehird> stuff.
18:21:41 <ais523> "trivial changing"?
18:21:51 <oerjan> http://rickrolldb.com/
18:21:57 <oerjan> it just had to exist
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18:22:18 <ais523> oerjan: is that a page full of known and suspected rickrolls?
18:22:24 <ehird> yep
18:22:31 <ais523> for all I know, it's actually a rickroll itself, designed to con people looking for anti-rickroll tactics
18:22:35 <ehird> nope.
18:22:43 <ais523> well, if it is, it probably uses Flash
18:22:47 <ehird> nope
18:22:52 <ehird> err
18:22:53 <ehird> oh
18:22:59 <Slereah-> Anyway, what's your problem with rickrolls?
18:23:02 <Slereah-> it's a great song!
18:23:11 <oklopol> i think it's a very neutral song
18:23:20 <ais523> so, why are all of them voted about 60% rickroll?
18:23:29 <oklopol> it's not good, it's not bad, it's not annoying, it's not catchy, it's not funny, it's not weird
18:23:35 <oerjan> hm their voting system is broken right
18:23:40 <oklopol> yeah, i wondered about that too
18:23:41 <ehird> ais523: the kind of people who would vote on such a thing are also huge jerks who like people being rick rolled, I assume
18:23:59 <ais523> maybe 40% of them are
18:24:45 <oerjan> oklopol: so what you are saying is we need to start weirdaling people instead
18:25:32 <ais523> maybe we should invent an INTERCAL version of rickrolling
18:25:36 <oerjan> surprisingly that term does not exist yet
18:25:38 <ais523> heh, I typoed that as ickrolling
18:25:45 <ais523> which would be a good name for it
18:26:03 <oerjan> YES!
18:26:10 <ais523> and I didn't even have the pun in mind when I started typing, must be my fingers typing puns by themselves
18:26:20 <ais523> like the time I typoed "I hope" as "i hope" twice when talking to Warrigal
18:26:30 <ais523> in a context where "ihope" would have made sense
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18:27:08 <oerjan> ickrolling would work great on programming forums
18:27:18 <ais523> yes
18:27:26 <ais523> the question is, can we generate enough INTERCAL to make it work?
18:27:31 <ais523> or would it be the same program each time?
18:27:48 <oerjan> "Your problem can be solved with this little code snippet: [link]"
18:28:18 <ais523> would the snippet always be a correct solution to the problem?
18:28:31 <ais523> or just any old snippet, maybe obfuscated INTERCAL printing "You've been ickrolled!"
18:28:37 <ais523> or "Just another ickroller,"
18:28:39 <ais523> or whatever
18:28:50 <oklopol> never gonna ick you up
18:29:11 <oerjan> oh an intercal program printing the lyrics
18:29:44 <ais523> printing the whole lyrics would be a pretty massive INTERCAL program
18:29:45 <oerjan> would be a bit too obscure though, since most people wouldn't get to actually running it
18:29:50 <ais523> unless it was an easter-egg in the compiler
18:30:05 <oklopol> just take something undefined and put it there
18:30:06 <ais523> yapp could generate an ickroll pretty easily
18:30:10 <ais523> but it would be obviously generated code
18:30:12 <oklopol> i'm sure intercal has lots of that
18:30:21 <oklopol> hmm. that hard to output :|
18:30:28 <ais523> oklopol: INTERCAL has no strings
18:30:47 <ais523> so you have to initialise the arrays with numbers somehow
18:30:51 <ais523> I suppose you could use compression
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18:31:02 <ais523> and save space by using Baudot rather than ASCII, rickrolling is mostly letters
18:31:09 <ais523> *ickrolling
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18:31:23 <ais523> you could fit 5 chars to the 32-bit variable that way
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18:32:39 <oerjan> 32-bit is not that interesting since you only have 16-bit numerals
18:32:48 <oklopol> ais523: oh, right
18:32:49 <ais523> oerjan: you can easily mingle them, though
18:32:57 <ais523> and store in a 32-bit array
18:33:03 <oerjan> yeah but it won't shorten the program
18:33:04 <oklopol> the lyrics are, like, song lyrics, they're pretty long :D
18:33:08 * oklopol didn't realize
18:33:08 <ais523> oerjan: yes it will
18:33:42 <ais523> DO;1SUB#1<-#12345$#54321 is shorter than DO,1SUB#1<-#12345DO,1SUB#2<-#54321
18:33:51 <ais523> not to mention that the second version needs twice as many pleases
18:33:52 <oerjan> well true
18:34:20 <ais523> the shortest known INTERCAL quine has no whitespace at all IIRC
18:34:33 <ais523> INTERCAL doesn't actually need it, it's just there for readability
18:34:39 <oerjan> that's sort of obvious then
18:35:05 <ais523> yep
18:35:21 <oerjan> so is that mingle into 32-bit the definite shortest way of initializing?
18:35:41 <ehird> someone beat me to making a low-tech rickroll
18:35:41 <ais523> I haven't seen a shorter way, although that doesn't mean there isn't one
18:35:43 <ehird> http://tobi-x.com/kate_moss_nude/
18:35:51 <ehird> marquee, background gif, and embedded midi
18:35:52 <ais523> is that a rickroll?
18:35:56 <ehird> yes
18:36:04 <ais523> also, midi?
18:36:08 <ehird> yes
18:36:09 <ehird> midi
18:36:14 <ehird> it's like 1996!
18:36:16 <ais523> oh, and marquee for the lyrics
18:36:20 <ehird> no lyrics
18:36:21 <ehird> just marquee
18:36:31 <ais523> what does the marquee display, if not lyrics?
18:36:38 <ehird> "You've been Rick Rolled"
18:36:49 <ais523> it should display the lyrics, ideally in time with the music
18:37:09 <ehird> that would be hard
18:37:10 <ehird> :P
18:37:51 <ais523> not really, given that only one thing supports marquee you just time to its implementation
18:37:57 <ais523> by inserting extra spaces, probably
18:40:16 <oerjan> <ehird> ais523: if you expected it to be that video, it's not
18:40:27 <oerjan> ouch, russell paradox rickrolling
18:40:35 <oklopol> that's one bad singer
18:41:25 * oklopol can't see el paradox
18:42:07 <oerjan> oklopol: it's a reference to the logs
18:42:37 <oerjan> a rickroll being a rickroll only if you don't expect to be rickrolled
18:43:04 <ais523> yes, if you ask someone for a rickroll, and they give you a rickroll, have you been rickrolled?
18:43:55 <ehird> ais523: no
18:44:15 <oerjan> <ais523> oklopol: I suggest lentil soup
18:44:24 <ais523> oerjan: what about it?
18:44:32 <oerjan> i guess historically the advent time is a lent
18:44:40 <ehird> ...
18:44:41 <ehird> >__<
18:44:43 <oerjan> so lentil soup is very appropriate
18:44:43 <ais523> ah, yes, although I don't know if there's a connection
18:44:50 <ehird> that was AWFUL, oerjan
18:44:54 <ais523> besides, Lent's before Easter, not Christmas
18:45:00 <oerjan> ehird: it was not an intended pun
18:45:02 <ais523> at least, the big official one everyone talks about
18:45:18 <ehird> http://qntm.org/?lent Yay! Lent!
18:45:26 <oerjan> well there were many small ones. almost every friday, i think
18:45:59 <oerjan> i guess the catholics may still recommend it
18:46:04 <ehird> [[Lent was invented in 1809 by an Englishman named Wilhelm Lent. It was originally a forty-day diet plan, during which people would forgo certain foods in order to lose weight for Easter. On Sundays these restrictions were temporarily lifted and you could eat anything you liked; that's why Sundays don't count as part of Lent (see above). Wilhelm Lent is also the inventor of lentils!]]
18:46:11 <ehird> [[Sundays these restrictions were temporarily lifted and you could eat anything you liked; that's why Sundays don't count as part of Lent (see above). Wilhelm Lent is also the inventor of lentils!]]]]
18:46:23 <fizzie> Hm, I wonder how close to singing you could get with a midi file, without cheating with custom instruments or anything. GM has a rather nice set of instruments, some of which have rather predictable waveforms, and you can additively mix at least 24 voices together and change them quite often, and other tricks.
18:48:33 <oerjan> hm i guess lent is not the correct term for other periods, but fasting
18:53:41 * oerjan discovers to his surprise that "lent" and "lentil" are not really related words
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18:58:02 <Slereah-> What about dent and dental
18:58:05 <Slereah-> DENTAL PLAN
18:59:32 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: there's a famous Dilbert cartoon about that <-- guess what I quoted...
18:59:47 <AnMaster> and why I selected 9
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19:01:22 <oerjan> dent
19:01:23 <oerjan> c.1325, "a strike or blow," dialectal variant of M.E. dint (q.v.); sense of "indentation" first recorded 1565, apparently infl. by indent.
19:01:24 <fizzie> That selfsame Dilbert cartoon was last talked about on this channel 2008-10-17, with both AnMaster and ais523 present.
19:01:52 -!- atrapado has joined.
19:02:02 <ehird> fizzie: hahaha
19:02:05 <oerjan> dint
19:02:06 <oerjan> O.E. dynt "blow dealt in fighting" (especially by a sword), from P.Gmc. *duntiz. Phrase by dint of ... "by force of, by means of," is c.1330.
19:02:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, um... why did you bother to check
19:02:44 <fizzie> AnMaster: Why not? I'll do that next time, too. :p
19:02:53 <oerjan> dental
19:02:53 <oerjan> 1594, from M.Fr. dental "of teeth," from L. dens (gen. dentis) "tooth," from PIE base *dont-, *dent- (see tooth).
19:03:04 <oerjan> seems unrelated
19:03:55 <oerjan> especially since "tooth" is the cognate of the last one
19:09:12 <oerjan> <ais523> also, the shells are poisonous, and they're a pain to get off because they're only about 3mm across
19:09:18 <oerjan> [citation needed]
19:09:40 <ais523> oerjan: this is from memory, it may be exaggerated
19:09:43 <fizzie> Weasel words!
19:09:49 <ais523> besides which, I've never seen a whole lentil either
19:09:54 <ais523> only the factory-processed forms
19:14:20 <oerjan> "I have never seen a lentil plant, never met anyone involved in lentil agricultural production, or even seen such a person on television, so I can only conclude that lentil's are actually a manufactured food product, possibly made from meat by-products. The plant origin is part of the marketing campaign, akin to Keebler crackers being baked by elves in a hollow tree. Until I see photographic evidence to the contrary, I will beleive that a lentil plan
19:14:32 <oerjan> that's bound to have been cut off somewhere
19:14:34 <ehird> a lentil plan-
19:15:12 <oerjan> a lentil plant is a brick structure with smoke-billowing chimneys, somewhere in the Chicago stockyard district.
19:15:26 <oerjan> (from WP Talk:Lentil)
19:15:43 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lentil_diseases
19:15:46 <ais523> wow, only on Wikipedia
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19:24:40 <oerjan> "This bad reputation may possibly be. due to the substitution of the seeds of the bitter vetch or tare lentil,, Ervum Ervilia, a plant which closely resembles the true lentil in, height, habit, flower and pod, but whose seeds are without doubt possessed of deleterious properties - producing weakness or even paralysis of the extremities in horses which have partaken of them.. The poisonous principle seems to reside chiefly in the bitter seed coat, and
19:24:57 <oerjan> that may be relevant
19:25:43 <oerjan> ... and can apparently be removed by steeping in water ...
19:26:19 <oerjan> (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Lentil)
19:26:41 <ais523> ok, so there's a plant which looks very like a lentil with a poisonous shell
19:26:50 <ais523> at least that would explain why I thought lentil shells were poisonous
19:28:06 <oerjan> http://elonstruths.blogspot.com/2006/10/its-in-blood.html is sort of amusing
19:28:39 <oerjan> (about poisonous lentils, but...)
19:30:09 -!- jayCampbell has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | esolentil.
19:32:30 <oerjan> <oklopol> well can you hand me some
19:32:49 <oerjan> swedish meatballs can be found at your nearest IKEA restaurant
19:34:55 <Slereah-> I know, I saw the Simpsons episode too
19:35:04 <oerjan> <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know what the opposite of vegitarian would be...
19:35:22 <Slereah-> A carnivore, mayhaps
19:35:34 <Slereah-> Or like a dude who would eat anything but plants.
19:35:44 <AnMaster> Slereah-, the latter
19:35:48 <Slereah-> Like bricks and metal and large clouds of ionized gas
19:35:52 <AnMaster> ah no
19:35:58 <AnMaster> then I guess carnivore
19:36:10 <fizzie> For the hard-core anti-vegetarian: eat only animals that eat other animals.
19:36:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, haha :D
19:36:22 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitlew8o9d7bzvtia
19:36:30 <oerjan> (standard tvtropes warning)
19:36:31 <Slereah-> That's stupid, fizzie
19:36:40 <Slereah-> That means there would be less carnivore!
19:36:45 <Slereah-> Hence less animals being eaten
19:36:59 <AnMaster> Slereah-, err it would be like anti-vegan
19:37:31 <AnMaster> anti-veganism*
19:37:49 <Slereah-> Hm.
19:37:52 <Slereah-> Anti-veganism
19:38:02 <Slereah-> To consume only products derived from animals?
19:38:10 <Slereah-> Like instead of salt, you use bacon bits
19:38:29 <ehird> what about baconsalt.com
19:39:08 <Slereah-> I looked it up
19:39:13 <Slereah-> It has no meat in it, ehird
19:39:18 <ehird> I know
19:39:21 <ehird> but
19:39:24 <ehird> bacon. salt.
19:50:32 <ehird> 0.0.
19:50:55 <oerjan> nothing, period.
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20:29:24 <ehird> hi ais523
20:29:31 <ais523> wb me
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20:46:38 <oklopol> hmm. Slereah- has a point, maybe an anti-vegetarian should only eat vegetarian humans
20:48:24 <Slereah-> ONE HOUR LATER
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21:55:18 <jayCampbell> <oerjan:#esoteric> <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know what the opposite of vegitarian would be...
21:55:20 <jayCampbell> omnivore
21:55:28 <ais523> no, omnivores eat everything
21:55:34 <ais523> we were wondering what ate just meat specifically
21:55:38 <ais523> I think it's "carnivore"
21:55:40 <jayCampbell> then carnivore, yes
21:55:52 <jayCampbell> hydrovore?
21:56:03 <ais523> you drink water not eat it, I think
21:56:14 <jayCampbell> what about fish who eat those critters that aren't plants but aren't animals
21:57:05 <ais523> protozoovore?
21:57:24 <ais523> what about fungivore?
21:57:32 <ais523> IIRC, fungi aren't plants
21:57:46 <ais523> although a fungivore could equally well be a Befunge-eater
21:57:50 <jayCampbell> zooplanktovore
21:57:52 <ais523> or other funges in general
21:58:03 <ais523> jayCampbell: zooplankton are animals, aren't they?
21:58:07 <ais523> technically speaking?
21:59:19 <Slereah-> Hence the zoo.
21:59:48 <jayCampbell> phytoplankovores
22:00:42 <jayCampbell> sounds like gwar's opening act
22:00:52 <Slereah-> Nah.
22:01:00 <Slereah-> It's more of a "Pedonecrophilia"
22:01:24 <jayCampbell> xenovore
22:01:32 <jayCampbell> i only eat aliens
22:01:40 <Slereah-> Like Mexicans?
22:02:37 <jayCampbell> don't call me shirley
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22:03:41 <Slereah-> Surely you can't be serious.
22:06:57 * oerjan detects a time anomaly
22:07:39 <Slereah-> It may be a time quantum flux with neutrinos. Phase.
22:08:07 <oerjan> Slereah-: What do you think it may be?
22:08:31 <oerjan> "Zooplankton are the heterotrophic (sometimes detritivorous) type of plankton."
22:09:26 <Slereah-> Well, if it's got more than one cell, it's an animal. Or a mushroom, but there's the zoo in there.
22:10:18 <oerjan> animals are a kingdom, nowadays. there are lots of other heterotrophs
22:11:25 <Slereah-> But how many that are multicellulars?
22:11:33 <Slereah-> There's pretty much only mushrooms.
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23:48:06 <Warrigal> La, la, la, la, paraphyletic.
23:48:49 <oklopol> :-)
23:48:54 * oerjan sics a reptile on Warrigal
23:50:02 <Warrigal> So, we had prokaryotes, and then really weird stuff happened and we got eukaryotes.
23:50:28 * oerjan swats Warrigal with an invertebrate
23:50:57 <ehird> oerjan: stop being violent :P
23:50:58 * oerjan finally slaps Warrigal with a fish
23:51:09 <oerjan> i'm just being paraphyletic
23:51:09 <Warrigal> Did every proto-eukaryote that didn't have all the features of eukaryotes die out?
23:51:18 <Warrigal> Fish are paraphyletic?
23:51:31 <oerjan> yep
23:51:39 <oerjan> they're our ancestors
23:51:45 <Warrigal> Oh, cool.
23:52:38 <Warrigal> Do they have a well-defined last common ancestor?
23:52:58 <ehird> "Haskell was made by some really smart guys (with PhDs). Work on Haskell began in 1987 when a committee of researchers got together to design a kick-ass language."
23:53:02 <ehird> I like this tutorial already.
23:53:10 <Warrigal> (Or "concestor", I should say.)
23:53:30 <ehird> [[I don't have a Mac but I've heard that if you have MacPorts, you can get GHC by doing sudo port install ghc. Also, I think you can do Haskell development with that wacky mouse with one button, although I'm not sure.]]
23:54:59 <oerjan> Warrigal: i think everything has, the question is whether it was a fish
23:56:09 <Warrigal> Indeed.
23:56:47 * Warrigal looks up horizontal gene transfer to see if a human can get genes from a dog
23:58:22 <Warrigal> Since Wikipedia doesn't say, the answer is yes.
23:59:22 <oerjan> actually i just a moment ago read that tree of life applies cleanly to eukaryotes because they don't have such things
23:59:26 <oerjan> on wp
2008-12-06
00:00:37 <oerjan> well that was the essence
00:01:50 <Warrigal> I just a moment ago read that there has been horizontal gene transfer from bacteria to fungi and perhaps between two eukaryotes, on Wikipedia.
00:02:01 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life_(science)
00:02:39 <oerjan> blasphemy! eukaryotes must be perfect!
00:03:16 <Warrigal> That article implies but does not actually state that horizontal gene transfer does not occur between eukaryotes.
00:03:51 <lament> heh @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tree_of_life_by_Haeckel.jpg
00:05:02 * lament wonders what haeckel meant by "egg-animals"
00:05:05 <Warrigal> So we're most closely related to either bats or sloths.
00:05:13 <oerjan> "There is some evidence that even higher plants and animals have been affected and this has raised concerns for safety."
00:05:24 <Warrigal> That looks like it says "Ovwaria".
00:05:52 <lament> ovulaira?
00:05:54 <lament> ovularia
00:06:35 <lament> http://nomen.at/Ovularia
00:06:37 <Warrigal> That's consistent, if "ul" looks like an au-ligature.
00:06:58 <lament> they're however completely missing from wikipedia
00:07:27 <ehird> length' xs = sum [1 | _ <- xs]
00:07:29 <ehird> okay that is clever.
00:08:13 <Warrigal> length' xs = sum [1 | sum <- xs]
00:08:19 <Warrigal> Same thing, only more confusing.
00:09:01 <ehird> Warrigal: Well done.
00:09:52 <Warrigal> length' xs = sum [1 | length' <- xs], as well. I don't know if length' xs = sum [1 | xs <- xs] would work.
00:10:51 <oerjan> works in hugs
00:11:14 <lament> i like length' xs = sum [1 | length' <- xs]
00:11:41 <ehird> lament: you can't like it
00:11:42 <ehird> it's Haskell
00:12:08 <Warrigal> I think length' xs = sum [1 | 1 <- xs] would give a type error and then a pattern match error.
00:12:23 <Warrigal> You could only use it on lists of Num, and then all the elements have to be 1.
00:12:36 <oerjan> no
00:12:42 <ehird> Warrigal: syntax error
00:12:46 <ehird> you can't do "1 = 2"
00:12:49 <ehird> which that boils down to
00:12:51 <ehird> kinda
00:12:58 <Warrigal> ehird: you tried it?
00:12:59 <oerjan> actually you can
00:13:02 <ehird> huh
00:13:03 <ehird> you can?
00:13:04 <ehird> :o
00:13:29 <Warrigal> , I think length' xs = sum [1 | 1 <- xs] will work just fine, though it might make xs be a list of
00:13:43 <oerjan> it counts the number of 1s in the list
00:13:52 <Warrigal> Actually<that> Num.
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00:14:04 <ehird> oerjan: cut
00:14:04 <ehird> e
00:14:28 <Warrigal> List comprehensions just throw out things not matching the pattern?
00:14:32 <oerjan> yep
00:14:52 <oerjan> just like do expressions
00:15:09 <ehird> oerjan:
00:15:15 <ehird> do (x:xs) <- []; ...
00:15:19 <ehird> surely that is an error?
00:15:27 <Warrigal> It's only an error if you evaluate x or xs.
00:15:35 <Warrigal> Haskell is lazy, after all.
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00:15:46 <oerjan> that has nothing to do with it
00:15:58 <Warrigal> Likewise, I think 1 = 2 is only an error if you evaluate one of the variables on the left hand side. There are none.
00:16:01 <oerjan> do ... <- []; always shortcuts
00:16:15 <oerjan> Warrigal: that's true
00:16:31 <oerjan> but <- is not quite lazy
00:16:31 <ehird> huh, "let 1 = 2" works
00:16:32 <ehird> ouch
00:16:46 <oerjan> it does check the pattern before continuing
00:17:20 <oerjan> ehird: actually you probably meant do (x:xs) <- [[]]; ...
00:17:34 <ehird> nope
00:17:38 <ehird> i was trying to get an error
00:17:39 <ehird> :P
00:17:45 <oerjan> sure you did
00:18:01 <Warrigal> let False = True works the same way, I believe.
00:18:13 <oerjan> (x:xs) <- [] does not actually put anything in x or xs
00:18:30 <oerjan> because there are no list elements to match against
00:18:35 <ehird> exactly
00:18:45 <oerjan> no
00:18:48 <ehird> but you said do blocks throw away non-matchers
00:19:07 <oerjan> i mean there is no list element to match the _whole_ of (x:xs) against
00:19:13 <ehird> ah
00:19:22 <oerjan> thus you want <- [[]]
00:20:06 <oerjan> that could have given an error, except it actually gives a fail "match error" which is []
00:21:02 <oerjan> so none of those give a real error
00:21:26 <oerjan> however, do ~(x:xs) <- [[]]; ... will give an error if x or xs is used
00:22:02 <oerjan> the ~ makes the pattern lazy
00:23:42 <Mony> bye
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05:33:44 <Warrigal> This channel is now officially boring. Let's discuss artificial intelligence.
05:35:29 <Warrigal> Fantasy: Eliezer Yudkowsky is right about AI destroying the world if we're not careful.
05:36:23 <Warrigal> So, I read about EURISKO (Yudkowsky is also right about it being the most sophisticated self-modifying AI in existence), improve it, and eventually end up with an explosive self-modifying AI on my laptop.
05:36:48 <Warrigal> That is, on a spare laptop that has no Internet connection.
05:37:07 <Asztal> But won't it get lonely?
05:37:14 <Warrigal> I solve a Millennium Prize Problem with the AI, winning $1,000,000 and getting Yudkowsky's attention.
05:37:27 <Warrigal> No, it'll be able to play with different parts of itself.
05:37:31 <Warrigal> And I'll talk to it.
05:38:26 <Warrigal> So, I send a copy of the AI to Yudkowsky, he agrees that it's easy to make safe for release, and we release it, and the Technological Singularity happens, and everybody's really happy.
05:38:31 <Warrigal> This will happen over Christmas break.
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08:18:30 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/vn-fredkin.pfk
08:43:46 <kwertii> And at 2:14 AM (EST), August 29th, 1997, EURISKO (improved) will become self-aware, and instantaneously decide that humanity must be destroyed.
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09:20:16 <M0ny> plop
09:20:36 <Slereah-> Yo
09:20:55 <M0ny> ça va ?
09:21:10 <Slereah-> On fait aller, et toi?
09:21:20 <M0ny> idem
09:21:33 <M0ny> petit mal de tête au levée
09:23:00 <AnMaster> err?
09:23:02 <AnMaster> what=
09:23:04 <AnMaster> ?
09:23:23 <Slereah-> FRONCH
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12:34:43 <oklopol> i don't understand french :<
12:35:50 <M0ny> héhé
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12:38:01 <Slereah> Let's make a French esolang, just to annoy oklopol
12:38:55 <oklopol> there is that one really crappy and stupid one
12:39:02 <oklopol> JUST LIKE FRENCH ALWAYS IS
12:39:04 <oklopol> wait
12:39:07 <oklopol> that was just stupid
12:39:11 <oklopol> anyway teach it
12:39:12 <oklopol> to me
12:39:12 <oklopol> now
12:39:24 <Slereah> OMELETTE DU FROMAGE
12:39:38 <oklopol> i understand the first word
12:39:48 <oklopol> i'm assuming the latter is either "gay" or "hobbit"
12:40:29 <oklopol> "du" is a preposition, i'm guessing "outside of, but still feeling as if not"
12:42:14 <M0ny> mdr Slereah
12:42:24 <M0ny> c'était dans Dexter ça XD
12:42:59 <oklopol> yeah, dexter is a pretty tight dancer
12:43:01 <M0ny> http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=z_2V7g3jkVo
12:43:14 <M0ny> Dexter is a little genius
12:43:20 <M0ny> from a cartoon
12:43:24 <oklopol> o rly
12:44:07 <M0ny> no fake
12:44:20 <oklopol> well, really i know that only because "dexter" has become a normal english term
12:44:38 <M0ny> and it means ?
12:44:49 <M0ny> a pretty tight dancer ?
12:45:48 <oklopol> hmm. actually it's not from the show.
12:48:02 <oklopol> M0ny: yes very pretty
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16:08:05 <oerjan> <Warrigal> And I'll talk to it.
16:08:24 <oerjan> Yudkowsky claims even that is unsafe
16:10:10 <oerjan> and he has twice won in a simulated challenge to prove it
16:14:32 <Warrigal> Yudkowsky's the Black Box Challenge guy, too?
16:16:34 <oerjan> what black box challenge?
16:20:16 <oerjan> http://yudkowsky.net/singularity/aibox
16:21:15 <Warrigal> Close enough.
16:23:57 <oklopol> oh that thing
16:24:12 <oklopol> i'd like to see the retard who he convinced to get him out
16:24:20 <oklopol> i mean what the fuck
16:24:27 <oerjan> two of them
16:24:36 <oklopol> "talk for two hours, and don't press this button."
16:25:00 <oklopol> are the conversations public?
16:25:03 <ehird> no
16:25:03 <oerjan> no
16:25:14 <ehird> i like how oklopol and psygnisfive read yudowsky's other articles, e.g. mundane magic, and talk about how they're all awesome
16:25:18 <ehird> whip out the ai box, oh that's just going too far
16:25:21 <ehird> he's obviously an idiot
16:25:35 <oklopol> ehird: what's mundane magic?
16:25:42 <ehird> oklopol: article of his linked a while back
16:25:50 <ehird> http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/mundane-magic.html
16:25:54 <oklopol> i'm not saying he's not right, i'm saying it's clear that experiment can't succeed
16:26:09 <oklopol> in a real life situation, yes, of course it could happen.
16:26:28 <oerjan> oklopol: i would say the conclusion of the experiment is that humans are way over-confident. no one believes they will let it out, still they do.
16:26:41 <oerjan> (well, some probably believe it)
16:26:52 <oklopol> ehird: that looks very boring, have i really read it and talked about it?
16:27:06 <ehird> well, psygnisfive at least did
16:27:29 <oklopol> oerjan: i'm one of those over-confident ones.
16:27:31 <ehird> oklopol: just because a random person on irc is incredulous to it doesn't mean it doesn't work.
16:27:36 <ehird> yes, of course I think i'd be able to pass it
16:27:38 <ehird> who doesn't?
16:27:56 <ehird> but the arguments presented, and the mailing threads linked to, make me curious and not so dismissive
16:28:03 <Warrigal> AI says, "You can talk for 2 hours in exchange for $20. I don't think that's a good deal." and then is quiet.
16:28:16 <ehird> theory: he paypals $50 to them to say they let it out after a few hours and skips the test
16:28:16 <ehird> XP
16:28:41 <oklopol> if the conversations aren't public, there's no reason to believe he didn't cheat
16:28:50 <ehird> oklopol: yes, but there's no reason to believe he did
16:28:56 <ehird> considering the mailing threads linked to
16:28:59 <ehird> and the protocols outlined
16:29:06 <oklopol> i can't think of any non-cheating arguments for the ai guy
16:29:06 <ehird> i mean
16:29:15 <oklopol> so yeah i think it's very probably he cheated.
16:29:22 <ehird> oklopol: yudkowsky is a clever, rational, and honest guy on overcomingbias, etc
16:29:31 <ehird> why would he suddenly cheat, even though -nobody- believes hima nyway?
16:29:31 <oklopol> that's definitely something where only "outside the box" things work
16:29:41 <oerjan> oklopol: how can he cheat?
16:29:52 <oerjan> the other person declares whether he won, after all
16:30:04 <oklopol> i dunno, and i don't have to answer you, the onus is on him.
16:30:20 <oklopol> that would be so simple to prove, yet he doesn't
16:30:42 <ehird> oklopol: don't you think he might have a reason?
16:30:55 <ehird> being so dismissive and ignoring arguments is not a sign of great reason...
16:31:07 <oklopol> urr?
16:31:40 <oklopol> yeah there probably is a reason, probably he didn't want people to see he cheated
16:31:57 <oerjan> hm i see.
16:32:17 <oklopol> "18:30… ehird: being so dismissive and ignoring arguments is not a sign of great reason..." <<< was this about me? i don't see the relevance
16:32:25 <oklopol> i didn't say i'm a great reasoner
16:32:25 <oerjan> so what we need is a test person who is not only confident, but also unbribable
16:32:26 <ehird> oklopol: so explain why he'd cheat when he knows nobody believes him anyway, and he has nothing to gain from cheating, and why didn't the participants, who disbelieved him just as much as you, reveal him, and why would he suddenly cheat after being an honest, rational guy everywhere else?
16:32:31 <ehird> answer that
16:32:59 <oklopol> ehird: that's a great mystery.
16:33:14 <ehird> oklopol: applying occam's razor, i'm inclined to believe he doesn't cheat over your unfounded, unjustified word
16:33:51 <oklopol> ehird: w/e; anyway, would be nice to see whether that actually works, psygnis and ihope tried it once, methinks
16:34:05 <oklopol> but that didn't work somehow
16:34:06 <ehird> oklopol: but that was retarded
16:34:07 <oklopol> iirc
16:34:10 <oklopol> was it now
16:34:20 <oklopol> why?
16:34:29 <ehird> yudkowsky's whole life is devoted to ai research
16:34:34 <ehird> and he obviously has a trick to it
16:34:48 <oklopol> yeah, that's another possible reason for not showing the conversations
16:34:49 <ehird> psygnisfive vs ihope to prove whether it can be done is stupid
16:35:00 <ehird> because it's just not even relevant
16:35:10 <oklopol> yeah i'm not saying they could've shown it *doesn't* work
16:35:16 <oklopol> they could've shown it works
16:35:21 <ehird> well, yes
16:35:28 <oklopol> which would've been pretty awesome
16:35:33 <ehird> but convincing psygnisfive of anything is pretty hard :-P
16:35:36 <oklopol> i'd definitely like to see whether that works
16:36:00 <ehird> oklopol: of course, if presented with a log from yudkowsky you'd probably say "that was retarded, i wouldn't fall for that"
16:36:02 <ehird> i mean, who wouldn't
16:36:46 <oklopol> dunno. maybe people who are idiots, and don't know it?
16:36:53 <oklopol> i meant
16:36:56 <oklopol> *mean
16:36:59 <oklopol> the opposite :)
16:37:03 <oklopol> wait
16:37:03 <ehird> i'm an idiot and i know it
16:37:03 <ehird> :D
16:37:13 <oklopol> wait wait this is getting too complicated for me ;)
16:37:35 <oklopol> who wouldn't, err, the people who wouldn't are exactly those who are stupid and know it
16:37:55 <oklopol> so yeah, the minority you're in
16:38:19 <Slereah-> MINORITIES?
16:38:21 <Slereah-> WHERE?
16:38:34 <ehird> MINORS?
16:38:35 <ehird> WHERE?
16:39:10 <oklopol> maybe i should contact yudkowsky and ask for him to do the experiment with me
16:39:30 <ehird> oklopol: read the page again
16:39:39 <oklopol> i didn't read the page
16:39:39 <ehird> specifically
16:39:46 <Slereah-> GET 'EM BOYS
16:39:58 <oklopol> anyway
16:40:02 <ehird> oklopol:
16:40:02 <oklopol> my original point about this
16:40:07 <ehird> oklopol: oklopol oklopol
16:40:08 <oklopol> isn't exactly that i don't believe in that
16:40:09 <oklopol> it's more
16:40:16 <oklopol> that it doesn't really matter whether i do
16:40:19 <oklopol> because who gives a fuck
16:40:27 <ehird> [[Currently, my policy is that I only run the test with people who are actually advocating that an AI Box be used to contain transhuman AI as part of their take on Singularity strategy, and who say they cannot imagine how even a transhuman AI would be able to persuade them.]]
16:40:49 <oklopol> what might be interesting would be things that may want a human to let the ai out.
16:40:57 <oklopol> and then proof of those
16:41:20 <oklopol> ehird: well okay, then it may well be i'm qualified for the test in the future
16:41:27 <Warrigal> I advocate that an AI Box be used to contain transhuman AI as part of my take on Singularity strategy, and say that I cannot imagine how even a transhuman AI would be able to persuade me if I'm offere $100 not to be persuaded.
16:42:09 <ehird> Warrigal: you are not a well-known ai researcher specializing in singularity :P
16:43:00 <oklopol> indeed, i assumed that was required
16:43:06 <oklopol> otherwise i'm already qualified too
16:44:26 <oklopol> was the experiment done on people who actually did it because they didn't believe it would work both times?
16:44:30 <oklopol> and no i won't read the page.
16:44:41 <ehird> then i won't tell you
16:44:41 <ehird> :P
16:45:02 <oklopol> k
16:45:26 <ehird> but
16:45:27 <ehird> yes
16:45:57 <oklopol> that makes it pretty much impossible to believe
16:46:51 <oklopol> anyway that's definitely a phenomenon that should be studied further
16:47:35 <oerjan> actually, for certain things believing strongly you will never do it is a sign that you might subconsciously have a desire to do so...
16:48:16 <oerjan> and might snap under the right circumstances
16:48:18 <oklopol> i don't really believe in the subconscious.
16:48:28 <oklopol> but if that's true, would be awesome to see it
16:48:42 * oklopol needs to get famous, fast
16:48:45 <ehird> oerjan: homophobia :p
16:49:09 <oerjan> yeah that's a well-known example
16:49:31 <ehird> your MOM is a well-known example
16:49:34 <ehird> o h s n a p
16:49:36 <oklopol> yes, a well-known example of something that's only true in movies made for idiots
16:50:19 <oklopol> homophobic people find gayness distracting, and thus are less likely to turn gay.
16:50:43 <Slereah-> What about people afraid of death?
16:50:50 <oklopol> haha
16:50:51 <ehird> oklopol: gayness distracting, what
16:50:51 <ehird> XD
16:51:06 * oerjan watches as both he and oklopol are about to be crushed by giant following [citation needed] signs
16:51:07 <oklopol> ehird: distracting maybe have been a bad choice of words :D
16:51:15 <oerjan> *falling
16:51:18 <oklopol> oerjan: i'm just going by experience
16:51:26 <oklopol> ehird: i mean like, "not nice" :D
16:51:37 <ehird> brb
16:51:37 <oklopol> "distracting" actually gave quite a different connotation.
16:51:38 <Warrigal> One theory is that Yudkowsky convinces the gatekeeper that they should "let him out" because that will encourage friendly AI research.
16:51:47 <ehird> Warrigal: hahah
16:51:47 <ehird> XD
16:52:04 <oklopol> Warrigal: that would be cheating
16:52:14 <ehird> yo
16:52:16 <Slereah-> I am often distracted by gay sex
16:52:23 <ehird> you ALL HAVE NEW COLOURS NOW
16:52:25 <ehird> oklopol you are blue
16:52:27 <ehird> slereah you are orange
16:52:30 <ehird> COLLOQUY THEMES WOO
16:52:36 <Slereah-> Yay :
16:52:37 <Slereah-> :D
16:52:44 <Slereah-> NEVER HAVE I BEEN MORE ANGRY OR ORANGE
16:52:45 <ehird> hmm this thing needs more line spacing
16:52:51 <Warrigal> oklopol: which rule prohibits it?
16:52:56 <oklopol> that's why i can't believe it, everything i can think of, and apparently everything other people can speculate, is pretty much cheating. it only works *in an experiment*
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16:53:10 <oklopol> Warrigal: nothing. it's just that beats the point of the whole experiment.
16:53:28 <ehird> hi comex
16:53:30 <oklopol> "let me out so this test works! here's why that's good for you"
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16:54:25 <oerjan> oklopol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
16:54:46 <ehird> okay so
16:54:47 <ehird> poop
16:54:51 <ehird> you no longer have colours
16:54:51 <ehird> because
16:54:53 <ehird> i hate your lifes
16:54:56 <oklopol> ehird: but
16:54:59 <oklopol> i like blue
16:55:04 <ehird> yeah well
16:55:05 <oerjan> oh no i'm all black
16:55:06 <ehird> eat your butts.
16:55:08 <ehird> oerjan: no.
16:55:09 <ehird> orange.
16:55:24 <oklopol> oerjan: i don't believe in that either
16:55:25 <oerjan> but you said i didn't have color
16:55:30 <oklopol> complete bullcrap
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16:56:27 <oklopol> To understand the process, consider a person in a couple who has thoughts of infidelity. Instead of dealing with these undesirable thoughts consciously, he or she subconsciously projects these feelings onto the other person, and begins to think that the other has thoughts of infidelity and may be having an affair. <<< seriously, i hate this movie already
16:56:42 <oerjan> oklopol: i predict that you will have a crisis one day that will prove to you it's true
16:56:45 <oklopol> that simply doesn't happen to sane people
16:57:01 <oklopol> "crisis"?
16:57:15 <ehird> oklopol: but nobody other than you is sane in your world
16:57:15 <oerjan> oklopol: it is not normal to be perfectly sane all of your life
16:57:33 <oklopol> oerjan: no it's not.
16:57:40 <oklopol> err
16:57:44 <oklopol> yes it is, i mean
16:57:45 <oklopol> ...
16:57:54 <oklopol> god language is hard today.
16:58:18 <oklopol> well.
16:58:48 <oerjan> oklopol: freudian slip. deep inside you believe it >:D
16:58:52 <oklopol> actually that was because i knew you'd say that, and i only took a quick glance at the sentence to make sure i guessed right, now that we're on the topic of psychology.
16:58:58 <oerjan> ok i'll stop now
16:58:58 <oklopol> oerjan: no. ^
16:59:17 <oerjan> heh :D
16:59:41 <oklopol> freudian slips work. when you're thinking about something else than you're saying, these things may mix up.
17:00:18 <ehird> hi
17:00:20 <ehird> what the fuck
17:00:22 <ehird> that is not the style i selected
17:00:37 <ehird> Fuck it, I'm switching to limechat. <3
17:01:46 <oklopol> also, oerjan, i don't seriously think it's unhealthy not to be logical all the time. or, to be more exact, explicitly know exactly what logic your actions are based on.
17:02:14 <oerjan> oklopol: argh, triple negation
17:02:24 <oklopol> that doesn't make it okay to do clearly insane things, though.
17:02:46 <oerjan> YES IT IS
17:02:54 * oerjan runs after oklopol with a chainsaw
17:02:59 <oklopol> and doing something like accusing someone of infidelity without any concrete proof is insane.
17:03:03 <oklopol> no one would do that.
17:03:16 <oklopol> oerjan: :D
17:06:16 * oklopol tries to read rest of article
17:06:41 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i'd get a heart attack if i tried to study psychology
17:08:01 <oklopol> well, okay, most of the lolly stuff seems to have come from freud
17:08:20 * oklopol noticed name and closed article
17:09:15 <oklopol> oerjan: can you juggle chainsaws?
17:09:21 <oklopol> i want something to drink
17:09:38 <oerjan> i can barely juggle plastic balls
17:09:43 <oklopol> how many?
17:09:53 <oerjan> two, maybe
17:09:59 <oklopol> i can only do 3 plus some tricks
17:10:00 <ehird> "plastic" "balls"
17:10:07 <oklopol> and well 4, but that's the same as 2
17:10:18 * oklopol also has a unicycle.
17:10:34 <oerjan> ehird: darn i put that "plastic" there precisely to _avoid_ your comments :D
17:10:50 <ehird> oerjan: "plastic"
17:10:52 <oklopol> i tried learning 5 when i was a kid, but that didn't work
17:11:07 <oklopol> could probably learn that in a few days now, maybe i should allocate the time somewhere
17:11:53 <oklopol> it took me weeks to learn 3 balls when i was about ehird's age
17:12:12 <ehird> "learn"
17:12:14 <ehird> "3" "balls
17:12:15 <ehird> "
17:12:38 <oklopol> ;;;;;;)
17:12:46 <ehird> ballllllz
17:13:05 <oklopol> anyway point is, multiple weeks back then, now i've seen my friends learn the skill in a few days
17:13:11 <ehird> "skill"
17:13:54 <oerjan> "ehird"
17:14:34 <oklopol> and - how nice of my friends - they've all learned it at a different time, so i've been able to see how the motoric skills have developed automatically over time, many people my age can pretty much just take the balls and start juggling, while kids just can't see how it works
17:14:48 <ehird> "friends"
17:15:14 * oklopol finds the brain fascinating
17:15:23 * oklopol licks the brain
17:15:30 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:15:31 <oerjan> "brain"
17:15:43 <ehird> "17:15"
17:15:44 <oklopol> ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;)
17:15:54 <oklopol> i should go buy something to drink
17:15:58 <oerjan> "drink"
17:16:05 <oklopol> why don't you keep this up while i'm going?
17:16:07 <ehird> customer11529.pool1.Newcastle-HTL0207-BAS0001.orangehomedsl.co.uk
17:16:11 <ehird> that hostname is way too revealing
17:16:16 <ehird> although i'm not even in newcastle
17:16:17 <ehird> lol
17:16:17 <oerjan> "up"
17:16:25 <oklopol> ""up""
17:16:36 <oerjan> ehird: you're in a pool?
17:16:41 <ehird> no
17:16:43 <ehird> "pool"
17:16:45 <ehird> yes
17:17:03 <oerjan> you're in an orange?
17:17:15 <Warrigal> """"
17:17:32 <oklopol> "Abstraction is not clever." <<< what's teh context
17:17:35 <oklopol> """"""
17:17:38 <oerjan> "teh"
17:18:02 <oklopol> yes
17:18:09 <Warrigal> So, should we "practice putting 'quotation marks' around 'things'"?
17:18:09 <ehird> oklopol: reddit
17:18:09 <ehird> :P
17:18:23 <oklopol> ehird: ohhh thanks :D
17:18:25 <oerjan> it could be either someone dissing abstraction, or someone considering it too basic
17:18:50 <oerjan> but the latter would not be stupid enough for reddit i guess
17:18:51 <ehird> oerjan: sort of both.
17:18:54 <ehird> it was a stupid comment
17:18:57 <oklopol> also it can be either about abstraction, or some specific instance of it
17:19:03 <ehird> 17:18 <#haskell> haskell-newbie: Hello, is there some kind soul who wont mind helping a newbie in a project hes doing?
17:19:07 <ehird> why do people use non-names like that
17:19:08 <ehird> i mean
17:19:09 <oklopol> if it's the latter, it's a poetic way to say it, but possible
17:19:09 <ehird> in 5 years
17:19:11 <ehird> are we gonna like say
17:19:20 <ehird> <haskell-newbie> yeah i was just zygomorphic prehistomimes up the monad
17:19:31 -!- oerjan has changed nick to human.
17:19:35 <human> ehird: no idea
17:19:38 -!- human has changed nick to oerjan.
17:19:56 -!- ehird has changed nick to fuzz.
17:20:00 <fuzz> used
17:20:00 <fuzz> :D
17:20:01 <oklopol> i accidentally a sygomorphic prehistomorphism
17:20:05 -!- fuzz has changed nick to zuff.
17:20:06 <oklopol> *zygo
17:20:12 <Warrigal> Note to self: Internet Explorer is not very good at rendering 3 megabytes of text.
17:20:16 <zuff> i liek this name
17:20:29 <Warrigal> (How many fantasy novels is that, again?)
17:20:59 <Slereah-> Nothing is good at rendering 3MB of text, really.
17:21:17 <Slereah-> oklopol : YOU ACCIDENTALLY WHAT?
17:21:20 <zuff> Slereah-: vi(1) is
17:21:30 <oklopol> Slereah-: i corrected my typo already
17:21:32 <Slereah-> *rimshot*
17:21:35 <zuff> oklopol: so, uh, the whole zygomorphic prehistomorphism?
17:21:37 <zuff> :\
17:21:44 <zuff> tha's bad
17:21:45 <oklopol> zuff: yeah, there i was minding my own business
17:21:55 <oklopol> you know, monading it up
17:21:56 <oklopol> and then
17:22:06 <oklopol> i accidentally the whole zygomorphic prehistomorphism
17:22:16 <Slereah-> Heh.
17:22:16 <oerjan> "capable of division into symmetrical halves by only one longitudinal plane passing through the axis"
17:22:56 <oklopol> oerjan: is that the definition of one of these wordphisms?
17:23:03 <oerjan> zygomorphic
17:23:14 <oerjan> "bilaterally symmetric" is simpler though
17:23:19 <oklopol> "passing through the axis"
17:23:27 <oklopol> liek how
17:23:44 <oerjan> than the longer definition
17:23:46 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird.
17:24:13 <oerjan> but prehistomorphism appears to be vacant
17:24:14 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff.
17:24:19 <oklopol> oerjan: exaplane.
17:24:40 <oklopol> whaddyamean passing through the axis
17:24:57 <oerjan> ah histomorphism has something haskell as its first hit
17:25:12 <oerjan> oklopol: you know what bilaterally symmetric is, right?
17:25:20 <oerjan> *al
17:26:13 <oerjan> http://www.onlineordbog.dk/wordnet/no/17/zygomorphic.php
17:26:15 <oklopol> err. it means symmetric
17:26:29 <oerjan> don't ask me what the axis does there
17:26:32 <oklopol> bilateral adds that it's symmetric around a plane
17:26:34 <oklopol> okay.
17:26:41 <oklopol> well i was just wondering what that added to it.
17:26:56 <oklopol> "symmetric around"
17:26:59 <oklopol> hmm.
17:27:00 <oerjan> indeed i don't see why there needs to be an axis
17:27:37 <oklopol> also ehird actually talked about a "prehistomeme"
17:27:49 * AnMaster looks around
17:27:51 <Warrigal> "A Shock Level measures the high-tech concepts you can contemplate without being impressed, frightened, blindly enthusiastic - without exhibiting future shock."
17:27:53 <oklopol> plz translate
17:28:01 <Warrigal> "SL2: Medical immortality, interplanetary exploration, major genetic engineering, and new ("alien") cultures."
17:28:06 <oerjan> prehistomime actually
17:28:16 <Warrigal> So if I'm blindly enthusiastic about interplanetary exploration, does that mean I'm below shock level 2?
17:28:22 <zuff> shit, AnMaster isn't ignored on limechat
17:28:48 <oerjan> that's obviously a neanderthal using body language only
17:29:07 <oklopol> ;)
17:29:17 <oklopol> does "histo" have to do with history?
17:29:25 <oklopol> ah
17:29:26 <oklopol> body
17:29:33 <oerjan> huh?
17:29:46 <oerjan> the body language thing was for "mime"
17:29:55 <oklopol> yes
17:30:01 <oerjan> but i guess it fits
17:30:09 <oerjan> no wait
17:30:10 <oklopol> but i'm talking about the "histo-", seems to mean body tissue
17:30:21 <oerjan> "From Greek histos , web"
17:30:37 <oklopol> err oh
17:30:39 <oklopol> yeah okay
17:30:53 <oerjan> so that's a medical reuse
17:31:06 <oklopol> yes
17:31:17 <oklopol> so, from now one, i'm browsing the histos
17:31:22 <oklopol> *on
17:31:37 <oerjan> pangeohistos
17:31:46 <oklopol> :D
17:32:51 <oerjan> er, "histos (Greek: "tissue"), "
17:32:56 <oklopol> hmm
17:33:02 <oerjan> apparently the histos does not agree with itself
17:33:06 <zuff> os x looks so much more cooler when you invert it
17:33:20 <oklopol> oerjan: that's internet oh right.
17:33:32 <oklopol> *alright maybe
17:34:29 <oklopol> i should go now
17:34:36 <oklopol> see you @ later tiems ->
17:34:40 <oerjan> ah a better source
17:34:47 <oerjan> ""study of organic tissues," 1847, from Gk. histos "warp, web," lit. "that which causes to stand," from histasthai "to stand," from PIE *sta- "to stand" (see stet). Taken by 19c. medical writers as the best Gk. root from which to form terminology for "tissue."
17:35:03 <oerjan> (histology)
17:36:14 <AnMaster> <zuff> shit, AnMaster isn't ignored on limechat <-- ?
17:36:21 <AnMaster> oh hi eh
17:36:23 <AnMaster> ehird*
17:36:27 <zuff> i'm not ehird
17:36:37 <AnMaster> zuff, ok, if you say so
17:36:45 <zuff> AnMaster: same bouncer.
17:36:48 <AnMaster> zuff, then why do you have ehird as both ident and realname?
17:36:52 <AnMaster> * [zuff] (n=ehird@eso-std.org): ehird
17:36:52 <zuff> bouncer issues
17:36:54 <AnMaster> ah ohm
17:36:59 <AnMaster> * [ais523] (n=ais523@eso-std.org): (this is obviously not my real name)
17:37:03 <zuff> yes, but
17:37:05 <AnMaster> didn't cause an issue for him ;P
17:37:07 <zuff> i just came in here today
17:37:11 <zuff> so new bouncer account
17:37:13 <zuff> from ehird
17:37:13 <zuff> so
17:37:19 <zuff> -> he didn't configure it right
17:37:36 <oerjan> yeah that stupid ehird never gets things right
17:37:57 <AnMaster> zuff, so where is ehird, and why "* ehird is now known as fuzz" "* fuzz is now known as zuff" :P
17:37:58 * AnMaster slaps zuff around with some missing humor
17:38:13 <zuff> AnMaster: I'm missing humour? what.
17:38:17 <zuff> that's rich coming from you
17:38:18 <AnMaster> zuff, no I am
17:38:21 <AnMaster> ...
17:38:22 <AnMaster> duh
17:38:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: duh, the nick was obviously misconfigured too
17:38:28 <zuff> wow, was that meant to be a joke?
17:38:30 <zuff> :|
17:38:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah of course
17:38:34 <zuff> that was awful.
17:38:36 <zuff> and what oerjan said.
17:38:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, that explains it
17:38:52 <AnMaster> zuff, right, so what are you interested in? what eso langs?
17:39:07 <zuff> i'm pretty new to them, ehird told me about them yesterday.
17:39:13 <AnMaster> ah
17:39:22 <AnMaster> how comes he gave you a bnc that quickly hm?
17:39:27 <AnMaster> maybe I should ask him for one too
17:39:28 <AnMaster> :)
17:39:28 <zuff> 'cuz we're friends? :|
17:39:32 <zuff> i am a great fan of cfunge
17:39:32 <AnMaster> oh ok
17:39:35 <zuff> it's nice and fast
17:39:37 <zuff> befunge is a nice language
17:39:40 <AnMaster> zuff, hah
17:39:57 <oerjan> clearly insane babbling madness
17:40:06 <oerjan> </mezzacotta>
17:40:07 <AnMaster> well I think that is sarcasm and/or irony. I would definitely say befunge98 is rather bloated
17:40:23 <zuff> TODAY ON "ANMASTER ANALYZES TEXT TO SEE IF IT IS A JOKE"
17:40:32 <AnMaster> zuff, I know it is a joke
17:40:46 <zuff> "well I think that is sarcasm and/or irony"
17:40:46 <AnMaster> I just don't want to scare you by realizing it right away :P
17:40:51 <AnMaster> <sense>
17:40:59 <zuff> ummmm
17:41:04 <zuff> <brackets>
17:41:12 <AnMaster> ))
17:41:19 <zuff> no, those are parenthei
17:41:23 <AnMaster> yes
17:41:23 <oerjan> a sufficiently analyzed joke is equivalent to a yawn
17:41:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed.
17:42:18 <oerjan> "<brackets>"
17:42:37 <AnMaster> </>
17:42:52 <AnMaster> I believe that is valid, I'm not 100% sure
17:43:09 <zuff> <p>a</> is valid.
17:43:11 <oerjan> <100%>
17:43:14 <AnMaster> right
17:43:16 <AnMaster> </>
17:43:17 <AnMaster> </>
17:43:24 <AnMaster> there I think I closed all
17:43:28 <AnMaster> except <sense>
17:43:35 <Warrigal> ( is a parenthesis, [ is a bracket, { is a brace, < is half a quotation mark in some langauges.
17:44:39 <AnMaster> no...
17:44:49 <oklopol> err no
17:44:55 <zuff> Warrigal: ( = parenthesis, [ = square bracket, { = brace, < = bracket
17:44:57 <zuff> so, almost right
17:45:00 <AnMaster> ( is wax, [ is U turn, { is a embrace, < is angle
17:45:02 <AnMaster> duh
17:45:04 <AnMaster> just ask ais523
17:45:09 <Slereah-> { curly bracket
17:45:13 <zuff> AnMaster: ha ha ha.
17:45:17 <zuff> :|
17:45:40 <Warrigal> Oh, right, the standard INTERCAL naming system.
17:45:50 <Warrigal> ) is wane, } is bracelet, and I don't remember what ] and > are.
17:45:55 <Slereah-> ".
17:45:57 <Slereah-> RABBIT!
17:46:03 <Slereah-> I can't do it.
17:46:10 <Slereah-> Is there no rabbit unicode char?
17:46:31 <AnMaster> ] U turn back
17:46:32 <oerjan> dot below is an accent, isn't it?
17:46:43 <AnMaster> > right angle
17:46:47 <AnMaster> Warrigal, ^
17:46:51 <oerjan> so it should be possible
17:47:36 <oerjan> or perhaps a hungarian " accent on a dot
17:47:54 <AnMaster> hm
17:48:04 * oerjan doesn't know enough unicode to actually make any of those
17:48:45 <Slereah-> '.'
17:48:58 <Warrigal> When writing sentences that end in quotes, I tend to put the period under the quotation mark.
17:49:00 <AnMaster> spark-dot-spark?
17:49:23 <Slereah-> INTERCAL used to have dot and rabbit ears at the same time
17:49:25 <AnMaster> Warrigal, rabbit
17:49:26 <Slereah-> To make a rabbit
17:49:34 <Slereah-> But that was back when it was in punch cards
17:49:37 <AnMaster> Slereah-, yes I know
17:49:48 <AnMaster> Slereah-, and ick can do it with back-space inserted iirc
17:49:53 <AnMaster> like a literal backspace
17:50:10 <Slereah-> pix
17:50:11 <AnMaster> no it doesn't make a lot of sense to have backspace as an ASCII code but yes it exists
17:50:24 <AnMaster> Slereah-, non-printable ASCII code
17:50:34 <AnMaster> like \a is bell, or such
17:50:40 <Slereah-> Hence "pix" and not "write it"
17:50:58 <AnMaster> Slereah-, well emacs shows it as ^?
17:51:14 <oerjan> not ^H ?
17:51:32 <Warrigal> Bell is ^G.
17:51:38 <oerjan> ^? is DEL, i thought
17:52:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I guess my terminal messed up then
17:52:10 <AnMaster> since I get ^[[3~ for Del
17:52:12 <Warrigal> Have a table: http://www.asciitable.com/
17:52:24 <Slereah-> I have a table on my wall.
17:52:32 <Warrigal> Two columns to the right of ? is DEL.
17:52:48 <oerjan> Warrigal: hey i was on that page
17:52:53 <Slereah-> My table is prettyier, because 002-006 are pretty shapes
17:52:54 <Warrigal> Two columns to the right of BS is H.
17:53:09 <zuff> It is dark here.
17:53:13 <zuff> I am likely to be eaten by a grue.
17:53:20 -!- oerjan has changed nick to grue.
17:53:25 <zuff> crap
17:53:25 * grue eats zuff
17:53:30 <Slereah-> "Groo Nickname is already in use."
17:53:30 -!- grue has changed nick to oerjan.
17:53:33 <Slereah-> Fucking balls
17:53:55 <Warrigal> Two columns to the right of RS is ^, so I guess RS is written as ^^. This also means that there's no good way to write ^, as it would be a ^ followed by RS.
17:54:17 <zuff> actually it is very dark.
17:54:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, ghost him!
17:54:22 <AnMaster> ah
17:54:22 <zuff> I can barely see. :D
17:54:23 <AnMaster> wait
17:54:27 <AnMaster> I misread that
17:54:50 <zuff> Straw poll: should I put some lights on?
17:55:05 <Slereah-> No.
17:55:08 <oerjan> zuff: no, don't scare the poor hungry grues
17:55:14 <Warrigal> It would be better to use a second- or fourth-column character to mean shift by two columns.
17:55:15 <zuff> Poll closed.
17:56:02 <Warrigal> #, say. NUL is #@, SOH is #A, SUB is #Z, US is #_, etc., then DEL is #? and # is #c.
18:09:10 <zuff> So.
18:09:11 <zuff> Guys.
18:09:12 -!- Slereah has joined.
18:09:35 <AnMaster> hm
18:09:41 <oerjan> snrf
18:09:50 <AnMaster> why does INTERCAL keep the name ampersand for &
18:09:51 <AnMaster> ?
18:10:00 <Slereah> Because it's already funny!
18:10:08 <zuff> AnMaster: because they couldn't think of anything funnier
18:10:11 <AnMaster> ah right
18:10:12 <oerjan> i _think_ the manual already explains that
18:10:15 <AnMaster> makes sense
18:10:16 <zuff> oerjan: it does.
18:10:17 <Slereah> It does
18:10:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, I was looking in it
18:10:22 <AnMaster> couldn't find it
18:10:25 * AnMaster greps
18:11:35 <AnMaster> hrrm can't find it in Revamped Instruction Manual for C-INTERCAL (0.29)
18:11:36 <Slereah> It's in the appendix.
18:11:42 <Slereah> Or is it the other organs?
18:11:42 <AnMaster> ls
18:11:49 <AnMaster> Slereah, tonsile
18:11:51 <AnMaster> err
18:11:52 <AnMaster> spelling
18:11:53 <Slereah> Yeah, that one
18:12:43 <AnMaster> huh in my copy of that I only see: texinfo internal error
18:12:44 -!- Slereah has set topic: Abstraction is not clever. -- reddit comment | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | You must be able to tell every INTERCAL joke to enter here..
18:12:44 <AnMaster> -_-
18:12:50 <AnMaster> not odd I couldn't grepped
18:12:53 <AnMaster> grep it*
18:13:15 <oerjan> argh
18:13:36 <Slereah> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/intercal-man/tonsila.html
18:13:36 <oerjan> if i never leave, i don't have to do that, right?
18:13:51 <oerjan> since i will not have entered, i mean
18:13:52 <Slereah> oerjan : Damn you loophole exploiting man
18:14:03 <Slereah> "* Got any better ideas?"
18:14:20 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:14:52 <oerjan> i exploited loopholes before i was born
18:14:58 <zuff> "exploit"
18:14:59 <zuff> "loopholes"
18:16:07 <oerjan> also i used paradoxes before i was conceived
18:16:29 <AnMaster> hrrm
18:16:59 <Slereah> That's a time paradox :o
18:19:51 <oerjan> duh
18:20:22 <oerjan> Slereah: it's AnMaster's job to explain obvious jokes, not yours
18:20:53 <Slereah> Hey, I don't want illegal aliens to take the jobs of hard working americans
18:21:02 <Slereah> Even though I'm neither hard working or American
18:21:09 <AnMaster> Slereah... stop stealing my job.
18:21:16 <zuff> AnMaster: shut up, dirty swede
18:21:23 <zuff> gb2/sweden
18:21:25 <zuff> /
18:21:29 <AnMaster> zuff, hey I showered only last week!
18:21:32 <Slereah> He alreadu is.
18:21:41 <zuff> Slereah: he is in VIRTUAL AMERICAN SPACE
18:21:43 <zuff> /kick AnMaster
18:22:00 <Slereah> By whom was created #esoteric?
18:22:03 <oerjan> #esoteric is american? i had the impression it was british
18:22:06 * AnMaster starts to sing the Internationale
18:22:18 <zuff> AnMaster: dirty commie
18:22:26 <oerjan> or possibly some EU thing
18:22:27 <zuff> oerjan: shut up, dirty norway...ian
18:22:37 <zuff> FACTS ARE USELESS
18:22:44 <oerjan> zuff: i fart in your general direction
18:22:56 <zuff> see, all foreigners are dirty
18:22:59 <zuff> especially foreigners like ME
18:23:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes, #esoteric has EU-bidrag
18:23:06 <AnMaster> don't know English word for it
18:23:07 <zuff> bidrag = DIRTY RAG
18:23:12 <zuff> GTFO
18:23:14 <AnMaster> no, more like money
18:23:24 <AnMaster> so yes dirty
18:23:29 <oklopol> yeah this channel attracts bi's alright.
18:23:30 <zuff> shut up commie
18:23:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, can you translate it?
18:24:03 <zuff> AnMaster: google.com/translate_t
18:24:29 <AnMaster> ah
18:24:37 <AnMaster> "EU-bidrag" -> "EU grants"
18:24:43 <AnMaster> it seems reasonable too
18:24:48 <AnMaster> the translations
18:24:50 <oerjan> huge grant
18:24:51 <zuff> grants is a few letters away from GENITALS
18:25:00 <zuff> all europeans are PERVERTS
18:25:22 <AnMaster> yes #esoteric has an EU grant of 1.2 million euro / year
18:25:28 <AnMaster> didn't you know?
18:25:34 <Slereah> How is that money invested?
18:25:40 <zuff> that's about £100bn
18:25:51 <oerjan> zuff: :D
18:26:02 <AnMaster> Slereah, no clue, ask ehird, I believe he stole most of it
18:26:11 <oerjan> would that be continental or american billions?
18:26:20 <zuff> oh, and that's $googl
18:26:22 <zuff> *googol
18:26:30 <Slereah> *goggles
18:26:34 <Slereah> THEY DO NOTHING
18:26:44 <zuff> yep, that's the usd
18:26:45 <AnMaster> zuff, wait, million = 1 000 000 in English is it?
18:26:52 <zuff> AnMaster: yes
18:27:00 <zuff> billion is either 10 mil or mil mil
18:27:01 <AnMaster> right
18:27:02 <zuff> it depends.
18:27:05 <zuff> err, wait no
18:27:07 <AnMaster> oh? odd
18:27:11 <oerjan> zuff: 1000 mil
18:27:15 <zuff> oerjan: right
18:27:21 <zuff> bil = 1k mil | mil mil
18:27:22 <AnMaster> 1000 mil = miljard in Swedish
18:27:35 <Warrigal> Just like "milliard" in English, I imagine.
18:27:46 <AnMaster> billion = 1000 miljarder iirc
18:27:49 <AnMaster> not sure about that
18:27:57 <AnMaster> I don't use such large numbers written out
18:27:59 <AnMaster> :(
18:28:06 <AnMaster> only in scientific notation
18:28:32 <zuff> 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
18:29:03 <AnMaster> zuff, please write out 10^10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 fully expanded in numbers
18:29:10 <zuff> k
18:29:11 <AnMaster> ;P
18:29:11 <zuff> 1
18:29:12 <zuff> 0
18:29:13 <zuff> 0
18:29:15 <zuff> 0
18:29:17 <zuff> 0
18:29:19 <zuff> 0
18:29:19 <AnMaster> oh no
18:29:21 <zuff> 0
18:29:23 <zuff> 0
18:29:25 <zuff> 0
18:29:26 <AnMaster> not one number per line
18:29:28 <oerjan> AnMaster: your big mouth
18:29:28 <zuff> 0
18:29:30 <zuff> 0
18:29:32 <zuff> 0
18:29:34 <zuff> 0
18:29:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, I didn't intend that
18:29:36 <zuff> 0
18:29:37 <AnMaster> sigh
18:29:38 <zuff> 0
18:29:40 <zuff> 0
18:29:42 <zuff> 0
18:29:44 <zuff> 0
18:29:46 <zuff> 0
18:29:46 <Warrigal> I'll help.
18:29:47 <AnMaster> zuff, sorry for that, please stop?
18:29:48 <zuff> 0
18:29:50 <zuff> 0
18:29:52 <zuff> 0
18:29:54 <zuff> 0
18:29:56 <zuff> 0
18:29:57 <Warrigal> 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
18:29:58 <zuff> 0
18:30:00 <zuff> 0
18:30:02 <zuff> 0
18:30:04 <zuff> 0
18:30:06 <zuff> 0
18:30:08 <zuff> 0
18:30:10 <zuff> AnMaster: i'm just being helpful, sheesh
18:30:12 <zuff> 0
18:30:14 <zuff> ah, thank you warrigal
18:30:16 <zuff> 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
18:30:18 <Warrigal> Actually, he makes a nice clock.
18:30:19 <zuff> 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
18:30:22 <zuff> 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
18:30:25 <zuff> 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
18:30:25 <Warrigal> We can see visually when what was said.
18:30:26 <AnMaster> that is true
18:30:28 <zuff> 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
18:30:31 <zuff> 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
18:30:34 <zuff> 9*^~&*!%&^%CARRIER LOST
18:30:36 <zuff> err
18:30:38 <zuff> NO CARRIER
18:30:39 <AnMaster> Warrigal, hm I think the number is too large to write out fully
18:30:46 <AnMaster> Warrigal, not sure about that
18:31:05 <AnMaster> my computer locks up when I try to calculate it ;P
18:31:11 <AnMaster> it is *probably* way too large
18:31:12 <zuff> AnMaster: no shit?
18:31:23 <Warrigal> Well, you need room for 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 digits.
18:31:29 <oerjan> it's ten decillions or ten novemdecillions, anyway
18:31:48 <Warrigal> If you memorized one digit per year, you'd probably finish before the heat death of the universe.
18:32:14 <AnMaster> Warrigal, ah right
18:32:35 <AnMaster> Warrigal, what about number of molecules to write it out right now?
18:32:47 <AnMaster> assuming two atoms per number
18:33:18 <oerjan> oh wait, i didn't notice the 10^. AnMaster, you are insane.
18:33:19 <zuff> digit, AnMaster
18:33:20 <zuff> digit
18:33:59 <AnMaster> zuff, right
18:34:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, thank you
18:34:13 <AnMaster> that is what I always wanted
18:34:27 <oerjan> i was afraid of that
18:34:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, what? that I wanted to be acknowledged as insane?
18:35:00 <Warrigal> This is about 10^10^20. At 1 digit per year, 10^20 years from the beginning of the universe will be...
18:35:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, How else would I be able to win the IG Nobel price?!?
18:35:50 <AnMaster> err Ig
18:36:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: that is not a requirement
18:36:01 <Warrigal> ...in the Degenerate Era, after solar systems do not exist but before galaxies do not exist.
18:36:12 <oerjan> in fact being _too_ sane may be just as good
18:36:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah
18:36:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, good point
18:36:29 <oerjan> since then you might not recognize that your research is not
18:36:30 <AnMaster> a bit too late now
18:37:55 <Warrigal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_timeline_from_Big_Bang_to_Heat_Death
18:38:00 <Warrigal> So, where in there will everything be dead?
18:38:26 <Slereah> define "everything"
18:38:34 <Warrigal> All intelligent things.
18:38:46 <zuff> define intelligen
18:38:46 <zuff> t
18:38:59 <Warrigal> If our main energy source is protons, I guess that'll be at 160 on the timeline, or 10^10^(160/100) years from the beginning of the universe.
18:39:27 <Warrigal> 6.46721137 * 10^39 years.
18:39:28 <Slereah> Dude.
18:39:33 <zuff> Warrigal: no way we'll last that long
18:39:39 <zuff> where we = all intelligent life
18:39:42 <Slereah> "Proton" isn'the problem of enrgy source.
18:39:50 <Slereah> We're made of protons.
18:39:53 <Warrigal> That assumes, of course, that our using protons as energy doesn't deplete protons significantly.
18:40:03 <Warrigal> Well, yeah.
18:40:08 <Slereah> If they disintegrate, so do you
18:40:29 <AnMaster> well I hope we can come up with a solution before then, it won't happen in my life time at least. Probably humans will be extinct way before then anyway
18:40:31 <Slereah> Also, it will be well before that.
18:40:39 <Slereah> Proton decay is an exponential drop
18:40:49 <Slereah> 160 is only when everyone will be decayed
18:40:59 <oerjan> if we stay intelligent long enough, we can just transform into another form. maybe we can live on the surface of black holes
18:41:18 <oerjan> those will last a long time, right
18:41:21 <zuff> I predict that intelligent life will disappear at around 110-115.
18:41:24 <Warrigal> Okay, half of them will be gone after 150.
18:41:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, err there are other issues with them
18:41:33 <Slereah> oerjan : No.
18:41:34 <zuff> maybe less.
18:41:39 <Slereah> They last even less than protons.
18:41:42 <oerjan> oh
18:41:45 <AnMaster> Warrigal, that is double logarithmic
18:41:52 <Slereah> IIRC, something like 10^100 years
18:42:04 <Warrigal> Some time after 150, I mean.
18:42:07 <Warrigal> Which is what the page says.
18:42:17 <AnMaster> Warrigal, check the scale...
18:42:21 <Warrigal> zuff: why will intelligent life disappear around 110-115?
18:42:48 <zuff> Warrigal: Degenerate Era, I guess. Well, it might be a bit after 120.
18:42:50 <Warrigal> AnMaster: I see "half of all protons have decayed", and to the left of it, some number above 150.
18:43:06 <AnMaster> Warrigal, yes indeed
18:43:11 <AnMaster> but also notice what the 150 means
18:43:28 <AnMaster> that is 150 = 100*log(log(real_year))
18:43:33 <Warrigal> 10^10^(150/100) years.
18:43:45 <AnMaster> indeed
18:43:58 <Warrigal> Around 10^31.
18:44:32 <AnMaster> 10^32-1 would be nicer, a perfect number for it
18:45:14 <AnMaster> yes not same as 2^...
18:45:16 <AnMaster> but still
18:45:39 <Warrigal> So the Degenerate Era begins around 115, or 133,000,000,000,000 years. We're at 13,700,000,000 years now.
18:46:18 <Slereah> Who cares. I'll probably be a bunch of neutrinos and positrons by then.
18:48:41 <oerjan> Slereah: actually it says black holes last longer
18:48:54 <Warrigal> And it'll probably be after the year 2066, which will be a pretty cool year, assuming 21st Century Fox is accurate.
18:49:45 <zuff> Warrigal: everyone knows it's 2012
18:49:46 <Slereah> Why?
18:50:04 <zuff> Slereah: new agers :P
18:50:06 <zuff> 21 dec 2012
18:50:14 <Warrigal> What do you mean by "it"?
18:50:19 <Slereah> I said "why 2066"
18:50:22 <zuff> oh
18:50:22 <Slereah> I know of 2012.
18:50:26 <zuff> Warrigal: end of life
18:50:26 <zuff> :P
18:50:26 <Slereah> I know crazy people.
18:50:30 <Slereah> Like waaaay crazy
18:50:33 <Warrigal> 2066 because 21st Century Fox takes place in that year.
18:50:42 <Slereah> "I believe in dragons" kinda crazy.
18:51:23 <zuff> I know people who are friends with therians for some yet-to-be-adequately-explained reason.
18:52:00 <Warrigal> I used to believe that other universes could cause our universe to follow *their* laws of physics. Or maybe I'm misremembering.
18:52:23 <Warrigal> I do remember believing that Neopets really did exist *somewhere*.
18:52:36 <zuff> THEY DON'T? :O
18:52:37 <zuff> :P
18:55:40 <oerjan> Warrigal: it's not false, it's just unprovable :)
18:56:29 <Warrigal> If not-X is falsifiable, what do you call X? Verifiable?
18:57:02 <oerjan> hm
18:57:10 <Warrigal> Assuming so, it's certainly not falsifiable, but whether it *does* happen is greatly verifiable.
18:57:12 <zuff> oerjan: ... which, for the sake of rationality and occam's razor, can be treated as false
18:58:23 * zuff notes that oerjan disagrees
18:58:24 <oerjan> zuff: heretic!
18:58:31 <zuff> nice timing
18:58:34 <Warrigal> If something is neither falsifiable nor verifiable, it's not scientific.
19:00:37 <oerjan> Warrigal: "the Co-NP-complete tautology problem"
19:01:33 <oerjan> hm wait
19:01:41 * oerjan is confused
19:01:57 <oerjan> that was the opposite of satisfiable, not falsifiable
19:02:01 <Warrigal> I don't see what polynomial time has to do with this, but the concept is probably isomorphic.
19:02:16 <oerjan> obvious duality
19:02:59 <Warrigal> I think I'm going to treat isomorphism as if it were a relation rather than a type of relation.
19:04:32 <Warrigal> i is isomorphic to -i; the identity function is isomorphic to "it is given; Q.E.D."; rock, paper, and scissors are all isomorphic to each other; all numbers are isomorphic to 0, especially if they're very large, very composite numbers.
19:04:47 <Warrigal> But no number except 0 is *completely* isomorphic to 0.
19:05:46 <zuff> Warrigal: wat
19:06:24 <oerjan> Warrigal: it seems verifiable means something like that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verificationist
19:06:45 <Warrigal> There are lots of isomorphisms mapping 60 to 0, because 60 is very composite.
19:07:58 <Warrigal> Congruence modulo 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20, 30, and 60 all map betweek 60 and 0.
19:08:01 <oerjan> "This article needs additional citations for verification." yeah, right
19:08:55 <Warrigal> 1000000000000000000000000! is so isomorphic to 0 that you might as well just call it 0. :-P
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19:28:48 <AnMaster> anyone know of a 2D open source space turn based strategy game? I just felt an urge to play that.
19:29:15 <AnMaster> either strategy or something similar, like strategy + exploring + colonization
19:29:48 <oklopol> stratego, explorer, colonization
19:29:53 <oklopol> i'm not sure why i said that.
19:30:56 <oerjan> oklopol: the acronym is sexcolon, so clearly it was a freudian slip
19:31:25 <oklopol> :D
19:31:27 <oklopol> well clearly
19:32:35 <oklopol> too bad it's not written colonyzation
19:33:48 <Warrigal> I want a game that consists entirely of exploration.
19:34:14 <Warrigal> And, you know, discovering things that are somehow useful.
19:35:12 <oklopol> i was thinking a game where you build fantasticcontraption-like spaceships and explore 2d space with them
19:35:18 <oklopol> gravity and all
19:35:18 <AnMaster> hm
19:35:25 <Slereah> The Game of Live?
19:35:31 <Slereah> f
19:35:36 <oklopol> maybe get scored on how far you can get from your home planet and shit
19:35:42 <oklopol> but otherwise just exploration
19:35:44 <Slereah> Spore?
19:35:48 <AnMaster> well
19:35:52 <oklopol> spore is nothing like that
19:35:53 <AnMaster> what I meant was something like:
19:35:56 <AnMaster> freeciv for space
19:35:57 <oklopol> game of life is nothing like that
19:35:59 <AnMaster> if you see what I mean?
19:36:02 <Slereah> Spore has plenty of exploration
19:36:11 <Slereah> If you want, you can do just that
19:36:17 <AnMaster> Slereah, open source?
19:36:23 <AnMaster> don't forget that was in the original list
19:36:25 <oklopol> Slereah: yeah, sure, but it's nothing like my idea
19:36:35 <Slereah> i have no idea what you're talking about, AnMaster
19:36:40 <oklopol> it's like Warrigal's idea.
19:36:50 <Slereah> Also you, oklopol
19:36:56 <Slereah> I wasn't following the conversation
19:37:03 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> anyone know of a 2D open source space turn based strategy game? I just felt an urge to play that.
19:37:04 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> either strategy or something similar, like strategy + exploring + colonization
19:37:05 <oklopol> Slereah: of course you know what i'm talking about
19:37:07 <Slereah> I'm trying to find if there's an alternative to cremation/burial/SCIENCE
19:37:08 <AnMaster> that was the original question
19:37:11 <oklopol> you addressed it directly
19:37:13 <zuff> AnMaster: Why open source, pray tell? Are you going to be cheating by reading the source or something?
19:37:22 <zuff> Free as in beer I could understand.
19:37:54 <AnMaster> zuff, well it needs to run on linux
19:37:58 <AnMaster> basically
19:38:02 <AnMaster> wine is such a pain
19:38:04 <AnMaster> in my experience
19:38:08 <zuff> There are free-as-in-beer games that are closed source and work on linux.
19:38:18 <zuff> Just not many, admittedly.
19:38:31 <AnMaster> zuff, I can't think of any such, got any example?
19:38:42 <zuff> I forget the name... loki games? Made them.
19:38:45 <zuff> Ports of windows games, mostly.
19:38:47 * AnMaster googles
19:38:57 <zuff> Closed 2002, apparently.
19:39:00 <zuff> Heh.
19:39:14 <AnMaster> hm
19:39:31 <zuff> Most of their titles are for-pay; but I'm pretty sure I read about them making some free stuff
19:39:46 <AnMaster> "Eric's Ultimate Solitaire" i listed on the wiki page. I think I played something called that back on Mac OS 7 once...
19:39:51 <zuff> lol
19:40:05 <zuff> deus ex was "in progress" XD
19:40:22 <AnMaster> oh well
19:40:52 <zuff> AnMaster: Code a game. :P
19:41:10 <AnMaster> zuff, right anyway, can you think a game that is 1) something like the game freeciv, but takes place in space 2) runs on linux 3) is either free as in beer or free as in OSI
19:41:20 <AnMaster> hm
19:41:21 <zuff> nope.
19:41:33 <AnMaster> zuff, I would if I could make up any good story lines or such
19:41:38 <AnMaster> I always sucked at that
19:41:47 <zuff> AnMaster: Games don't need good plots.
19:41:57 <zuff> "You are in space. You have to find things and stuff. And use those things to do things."
19:42:07 <AnMaster> zuff, I also suck at drawing
19:42:18 <AnMaster> and really I wouldn't want ASCII interface for it
19:42:31 <AnMaster> 2D graphics probably
19:42:32 <zuff> AnMaster: Make graphics like Asteroids or Space wars.
19:42:36 <zuff> Vector line art ftw
19:42:55 <AnMaster> zuff, well true it scales well, I mean not locked to fixed bitmap sizes ;P
19:42:56 <oklopol> i usually just do bals
19:42:57 <oklopol> *balls
19:43:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, that sounds so dirty
19:43:06 <AnMaster> ;P
19:43:16 <zuff> AnMaster: hey, I'm the one who _makes_ the obvious dirty jokes
19:43:20 <oklopol> usually you just need to have a few kinds of objects
19:43:22 <zuff> you're the one who doesn't get them
19:43:29 <oklopol> so why not just use a few different basic shapes
19:43:29 <AnMaster> zuff, really? I thought it was ehird who did
19:43:33 <AnMaster> and since he isn't here...
19:43:33 <oklopol> or colors
19:43:40 <zuff> AnMaster: I killed ehird
19:43:49 <AnMaster> oklopol, well, then what about making up game mechanics?
19:43:55 <Warrigal> < oklopol> i was thinking a game where you build fantasticcontraption-like spaceships and explore 2d space with them
19:43:58 <Warrigal> Perfect.
19:44:11 <AnMaster> Warrigal, sounds fun yeah
19:44:22 <zuff> AnMaster: Come up with something.
19:44:23 <AnMaster> need some space battles too
19:44:25 <AnMaster> that is it
19:44:34 <AnMaster> zuff, then finding time to code it
19:44:50 <AnMaster> also I hate GUI programming for some reason, always found backend much more fun
19:44:54 <zuff> AnMaster: You seem to have adequate minutes to explain in detail your requirements for it then talk about how you couldn't make it and be rebutted. :P
19:44:58 <AnMaster> but I guess I could use some language that made it easy
19:45:24 <zuff> Also, if you're using C, just write a simple game loop thing on top of Allegro or SDL that renders the vector stuff to screen and handles moving it etc.
19:45:24 <AnMaster> zuff, well I probably won't have time to make it soon, but maybe I'll start on it this xmas holiday
19:45:30 <zuff> Then you could code without thinking of the gui.
19:45:36 <AnMaster> or maybe I'll start learning haskell then
19:46:05 <AnMaster> zuff, I wouldn't use C for it, since it would be turn based I guess
19:46:08 <zuff> AnMaster: Oh lord. Please stick to the game. :P
19:46:25 * oerjan swats zuff -----###
19:46:27 <AnMaster> zuff, actually I have planned beginning with haskell then
19:46:29 <oklopol> Warrigal: yes, it'd be pretty perfect, the problem is it's kinda complicated, because i want planets to actually consist of millions of tiny particles
19:46:30 <AnMaster> err
19:46:34 <AnMaster> grammar
19:46:34 <zuff> AnMaster: no no no no no no no no >_<
19:46:43 <AnMaster> ah yes
19:46:46 <AnMaster> s/have/got/
19:46:48 <AnMaster> ;D
19:47:01 <oklopol> so it has to dynamically make larger blocks out of the particle heaps and so one
19:47:02 <oklopol> *on
19:47:15 <Warrigal> That might be viable.
19:47:21 <Warrigal> Use fractals.
19:47:28 <AnMaster> oklopol, what do you plan for RAM requirement?
19:47:38 <oklopol> i don't think fractals are useful unless you have a very static system.
19:47:54 <oklopol> they might be useful for generating the space, but i don't think for actually running it
19:47:55 <zuff> AnMaster: who cares about things like RAM?
19:47:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, just make time a fractal too?
19:48:12 <oklopol> AnMaster: that works for a static animation.
19:48:15 <AnMaster> zuff, someone who doesn't have a lot of it?
19:48:23 <AnMaster> oklopol, ah hm right
19:48:25 <zuff> AnMaster: how much ram have you got?
19:48:29 <Warrigal> A planet is a pile of dirt. A pile of dirt is made of smaller piles of dirt.
19:48:30 <AnMaster> zuff, 1.5 GB
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19:48:34 <oklopol> AnMaster: i don't know how much ram i have
19:48:35 <Warrigal> Sounds like a fractal to me.
19:48:43 <zuff> AnMaster: 1GB here.
19:48:55 <AnMaster> zuff, well, you have even less
19:49:00 <oklopol> Warrigal: umm.
19:49:03 <zuff> And OS X isn't exactly light on the RAM consumption. Yet I have 20+ things open and it's smooth sailing.
19:49:03 <AnMaster> I feel sorry for you
19:49:16 <oklopol> Warrigal: well yeah sure you can think of it like that, but i don't see the use
19:49:25 <AnMaster> zuff, same, but if you want to store a planet as a list of billions of particles...
19:49:32 <zuff> AnMaster: Did oklopol said billions?
19:49:34 <zuff> *say
19:49:38 <AnMaster> ok millions
19:49:45 <AnMaster> but still
19:49:46 <AnMaster> a lot
19:50:03 <zuff> He did not say millions.
19:50:05 <oklopol> AnMaster: when a planet is sufficiently far away, it can be compressed
19:50:17 <oklopol> from a million particles into about ten basic shapes
19:50:22 <AnMaster> hm true
19:50:33 <oklopol> ...of course you could go around space making sculptures...
19:50:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh?
19:50:48 <oklopol> AnMaster: the idea is
19:50:56 <AnMaster> also I assume all travel would be sub-light speed?
19:51:00 <oklopol> you're this little population of these weird aliens.
19:51:01 <AnMaster> for maximum realism?
19:51:08 <oklopol> and you can pick up particles
19:51:11 <zuff> who cares about speed
19:51:12 <oklopol> and build things out of them.
19:51:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm
19:51:24 <oklopol> AnMaster: i don't see a need for that
19:52:08 <Warrigal> In the computer world, it's easier to build things out of abstract concepts than to build them out of particles.
19:52:11 <oklopol> you'd fly around by building somekinda spaceships, there'd be certain materials that can be "burned" or something, and you could use them to shoot particles out the spaceship's ass to start flying, like a normal spaceship.
19:52:19 <AnMaster> Warrigal, true
19:52:22 <oklopol> Warrigal: so?
19:52:51 <Warrigal> Not having to simulate Newtonian dynamics is easier on the processor.
19:52:58 -!- comexk has changed nick to ehird.
19:53:00 <AnMaster> oklopol, you mean like dilithium crystals?
19:53:13 <AnMaster> and like, uh you reverse the, um, something to do it
19:53:19 <AnMaster> polarity maybe
19:53:22 <AnMaster> would fit well there
19:53:33 <AnMaster> hey you could maybe make a tv show out of it
19:53:43 <oklopol> Warrigal: what's the alternative when you can build *anything*?
19:54:10 <oklopol> AnMaster: no i mean a particle that can blow up.
19:55:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, hrrm
19:55:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh right, would be something like, Uranium-238?
19:55:45 <AnMaster> or 235
19:55:47 <AnMaster> or whatever it is
19:56:15 <oklopol> AnMaster: i don't really care for a real world example of a similar substance
19:56:35 <oerjan> oklopol: kabloomium
19:56:36 <oklopol> but really anything that burns fast will do
19:56:59 <oklopol> like a match
19:57:09 <Warrigal> oklopol: there's a grid, and shapes have positions on the grid. They're simple geometric shapes like squares and 45-degree right triangles. They have small amounts of state and have simple effects on their surroundings.
19:57:18 <AnMaster> oklopol, ah
19:57:39 <oklopol> Warrigal: yeah, something like that
19:57:46 <AnMaster> Warrigal, what about gravitation?
19:58:00 <oklopol> gravity would be something that only happens when particles are connected into a mass
19:58:09 <oklopol> in the simplified physics
19:58:30 <AnMaster> also depending on how you define this... you could end up with a cellular automaton
19:58:44 <AnMaster> not sure how you define that grid and interactions and such
19:58:45 <oklopol> AnMaster: no not really, because you need to optimize it every step of the way
19:58:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh?
19:58:56 <oklopol> there needs to be abstraction going on all the time
19:58:59 <oklopol> by the program.
19:59:00 <AnMaster> ah right
19:59:06 <AnMaster> true
19:59:09 <Warrigal> Gravitation isn't discrete, so it would have to be a modified version.
19:59:12 <oklopol> but yeah the rules, the laws of physics
19:59:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, or you could just buy IBM Roadrunner
19:59:18 <oklopol> those are pretty much a ca
19:59:19 <AnMaster> ;P
19:59:40 <oklopol> err, is that the supercomputer they're advertising now?
19:59:48 <AnMaster> oklopol, isn't it the fastest one?
20:00:01 <AnMaster> broke some "barrier" of flops iirc
20:00:06 <AnMaster> like teraflops
20:00:09 <AnMaster> or such
20:00:11 <oklopol> oh.
20:00:14 <AnMaster> don't remember details
20:00:17 <oklopol> like a real supercomp okay
20:00:28 <oklopol> i thought the one they're selling for home use
20:00:31 <AnMaster> "Roadrunner is a supercomputer built by IBM at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, USA. Currently the world's fastest computer, the US$133-million Roadrunner is designed for a peak performance of 1.7 petaflops, achieving 1.026 on May 25, 2008,[1][2][3] and to be the world's first TOP500 Linpack sustained 1.0 petaflops system. It is a one-of-a-kind supercomputer, built from commodity part
20:00:31 <AnMaster> s, with many novel design features."
20:00:34 <AnMaster> ok
20:00:36 <AnMaster> petaflops
20:00:39 <AnMaster> not teraflops
20:02:39 <zuff> I tried to convert game of life rules into a wolfram 1d automaton:
20:02:42 <zuff> 000 001 010 011 100 101 110 111
20:02:42 <zuff> 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0
20:02:45 <zuff> Er.
20:02:48 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:02:53 <zuff> Did that indent arrive?
20:03:00 <zuff> Yes.
20:03:02 <zuff> Yes it did.
20:03:16 <AnMaster> zuff, hm interesting
20:03:24 -!- sorear has left (?).
20:03:45 <zuff> Wonder what # it is.
20:03:45 <AnMaster> zuff, btw, what OS are you on?
20:03:50 <zuff> AnMaster: OS X. Why?
20:04:01 <AnMaster> just wondering.
20:04:09 <zuff> I see.
20:04:15 <zuff> ^ don't
20:04:21 <AnMaster> it's an interesting OS
20:04:39 <zuff> I see.
20:04:41 <zuff> ^ don't
20:04:45 <oerjan> zuff: 8+32+64 = 104
20:04:54 <AnMaster> like most OS it has some really good ideas and a few bad.
20:05:00 <AnMaster> the bundle thing is very nice
20:05:05 <zuff> oerjan: Is it TC? :P
20:05:17 <AnMaster> I dislike the bit about it being tied to Apple hardware
20:05:31 <zuff> AnMaster: Apple is a hardware company, except its hardware only sells because of its software.
20:05:35 <AnMaster> and that you can't find settings for everything easily always.
20:05:40 <AnMaster> but yes it has some really good ideas
20:05:48 <zuff> "everything easily always"
20:05:51 <zuff> Stunning sentence combination there
20:05:58 <oerjan> zuff: only 110 is known to be TC i think (and its equivalents, 104 is not one)
20:06:04 <zuff> oerjan: 30 is
20:06:07 <AnMaster> zuff, sorry for the bad grammar
20:06:17 <oerjan> zuff: has it been proved?
20:06:22 <zuff> oerjan: I think so.
20:07:05 <oerjan> zuff: wp does not say so
20:07:53 <oerjan> nor does mathworld
20:07:54 <zuff> It obviously is. :P
20:08:17 <oerjan> it's that class 4 type, i guess. but that is no proof, just wolfram's hypothesis
20:08:55 <zuff> ah.
20:09:00 <zuff> I do not trust wolfram :P
20:09:01 <Slereah> Just ask ais523.
20:09:12 <Slereah> ais523 is the guy to prove Wolfram's hypothesises.
20:09:45 <oerjan> the picture of 104 looks boring, dies out immediately
20:09:52 <Slereah> Heh.
20:10:23 <zuff> oerjan: just like in gol
20:10:43 <oerjan> actually that's just because the pictures start with a single cell and the rule always requires at least 2
20:10:52 <zuff> yes
20:10:54 <Warrigal> You mean there are Wolfram rules whose TC-ness is unknown?
20:11:01 <zuff> Warrigal: yes.
20:11:16 <Warrigal> Wow.
20:11:37 <oerjan> i assume 30 is one
20:17:27 <zuff> oerjan: 104 is boring
20:17:29 <zuff> just produces lines
20:19:05 <AnMaster> <oerjan> zuff: 8+32+64 = 104 <-- how does that work?
20:19:13 <zuff> binary
20:19:14 <zuff> brb
20:19:29 <AnMaster> well duh
20:19:31 <AnMaster> I mean
20:19:35 <AnMaster> <zuff> 000 001 010 011 100 101 110 111
20:19:35 <AnMaster> <zuff> 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0
20:19:36 <AnMaster> ->
20:19:39 <AnMaster> <oerjan> zuff: 8+32+64 = 104
20:19:44 * AnMaster tries to figure out
20:20:10 <Warrigal> 011 is the 8s place, 101 is the 32s place, 110 is the 64s place.
20:20:21 <AnMaster> hm
20:20:40 <AnMaster> what about 100 and such?
20:21:01 <oerjan> you sum the ones that give 1
20:21:03 <AnMaster> aha
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20:21:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, wouldn't it be possible to construct other ones with the same numbers?
20:22:01 <oklopol> 8|
20:22:02 <oerjan> or if you write it in the order 111 110 101 100 011 010 001 000, then you just take the bits below as the binary representation
20:22:19 <oerjan> so binary 01101000 = 104
20:22:21 <AnMaster> also 101 (base 2) is 5? not 32
20:22:25 <AnMaster> oh well
20:22:32 <oklopol> ....wut
20:22:34 <oerjan> yeah 2^
20:22:44 <oklopol> oh
20:22:55 <oklopol> thazz what he meant
20:22:58 <AnMaster> right
20:22:59 <AnMaster> that works
20:23:19 <AnMaster> as long as you have 3->1 mapping
20:23:31 <AnMaster> it is unique isn't it?
20:23:49 <oerjan> zuff: 104 seems to be able to produce something else than vertical lines, but more rarely and which eventually dies out in my first tries
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20:24:01 <oerjan> AnMaster: of course
20:24:08 <AnMaster> right
20:24:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about 2->1 mappings?
20:24:29 <oklopol> AnMaster: lul?
20:24:35 <oklopol> is binary new to you :P
20:24:35 <oerjan> well then you would presumably use 11 10 01 00
20:24:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, no
20:24:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed
20:24:48 <AnMaster> I was just wondering
20:24:52 <AnMaster> if they were any interesting
20:25:04 <oerjan> AnMaster: those are boolean binary operators
20:25:09 <oerjan> all of them
20:25:14 <AnMaster> oh right
20:25:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, so 4->1 or 5->2?
20:25:45 <AnMaster> might not make a lot of sense
20:25:46 <oklopol> ..?
20:25:46 <oerjan> i went through and checked once. none are really interesting, the most hard to predict are xor and its dual
20:26:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm nxor?
20:26:04 <oerjan> AnMaster: you'd usually assume -> 1 anyhow
20:26:20 <oerjan> equivalence, not sure if it has an abbreviation
20:26:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, well what if I assume -> 2, probably a bully automaton(?)
20:26:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: but then you'd double the field size each step
20:27:08 <oklopol> oerjan: what's wrong with that?
20:27:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, fun, hope you got enough ram
20:27:11 <oerjan> i mean the table says what one cell becomes, given its ancestor neighborhood
20:27:16 <oklopol> i think it's pretty cool
20:27:29 <oerjan> hm maybe something fractal comes out
20:27:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, so you insert extra cells, like the expanding universe
20:27:41 <AnMaster> I think there is an interesting analogy there
20:27:42 <AnMaster> :D
20:28:09 <AnMaster> also I suggest using ternary instead of binary
20:28:11 <AnMaster> much more fun
20:28:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, don't you agree?
20:28:58 <AnMaster> ternary is fun
20:29:30 <Slereah> Ternary is for terrible languages.
20:29:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: well sure you can do that
20:30:00 <AnMaster> Slereah, well ternary cellular automatons would be fun
20:30:25 <AnMaster> like ternary game of life: alive, on life support, dead
20:30:26 <oerjan> the wolfram scheme with 3 cells binary is just the simlest case that gives interesting automata, i guess
20:30:29 <AnMaster> :D
20:30:30 <Slereah> Doesn't it already exist?
20:30:53 <oerjan> there are lots of life variations
20:31:05 <AnMaster> hey was the joke THAT bad or what?
20:31:18 <Slereah> Is tere a GAME OF DEAT?
20:31:23 <Slereah> Fuck
20:31:29 <Slereah> My keyboard.
20:31:32 <AnMaster> game of life support?
20:31:40 <Slereah> Wireless keyboards are shitty.
20:31:44 <Slereah> They drain batteries.
20:32:05 <AnMaster> Slereah, you want one that can be recharged then
20:32:07 <AnMaster> or something
20:32:15 <AnMaster> also I use a old PS/2 keyboard
20:32:17 <AnMaster> works perfectly
20:32:25 <AnMaster> an old*
20:32:28 <Slereah> I want one with a wire, AnMaster
20:32:37 <AnMaster> Slereah, PS/2 or USB?
20:32:40 <Slereah> But they didn't have any keyboard with a 1.8m wire
20:32:43 <AnMaster> PS/2 is nicer :)
20:32:44 <Slereah> USB.
20:32:48 <oklopol> AnMaster: yeah then you can make paramedic gliders that bring other gliders back to life!
20:32:56 <Slereah> Heh.
20:32:59 <Slereah> Cute.
20:33:00 <AnMaster> oklopol, haha
20:33:14 <AnMaster> Slereah, I would say my keyboard cable is like 1.7 meters or so
20:33:15 <oklopol> also evil thugs that beat gliders up
20:33:19 <AnMaster> that is my guess
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20:33:28 <Slereah> TEN CENTIMETERS NOT ENOUGH
20:33:37 <AnMaster> Slereah, well it is PS/2
20:33:39 <Slereah> oklopol : That would be THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME
20:33:44 <AnMaster> for usb you can get longer cables
20:33:49 <Slereah> ...
20:33:50 <AnMaster> Slereah, I got an usb extension cable here
20:33:57 <Slereah> Longer cables for a wireless keyboard?
20:34:02 <AnMaster> you can make it like 3 meters
20:34:07 <Slereah> I cannot wrap my mind around such a concept!
20:34:07 <AnMaster> Slereah, no for usb keyboard...
20:34:08 <AnMaster> duh
20:34:26 <AnMaster> <Slereah> I want one with a wire, AnMaster
20:34:35 <AnMaster> <Slereah> USB.
20:34:42 <AnMaster> <Slereah> But they didn't have any keyboard with a 1.8m wire
20:34:52 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> for usb you can get longer cables <AnMaster> Slereah, I got an usb extension cable here
20:34:54 <AnMaster> Slereah, duh
20:37:54 <zuff> PS/2 is useless and obsolete.
20:38:32 * zuff becomes gradually more attached to this moniker
20:39:32 <oklopol> everything is useless and obsolete
20:39:49 <Slereah> Except ham.
20:40:26 <oklopol> hammer
20:40:46 <Slereah> Bacon.
20:44:47 <zuff> Any live cell with fewer than two live neighbours goes on life support.
20:44:47 <zuff> Any live cell with more than three live or life supported neighbours dies.
20:44:48 <zuff> Any live cell with two or three live or life supported neighbours lives.
20:44:50 <zuff> Any tile with exactly three live neighbours cells is populated with a living cell.
20:44:52 <zuff> Any cell on life support with fewer than two live neighbours dies.
20:44:54 <zuff> Any cell on life support with more than three live or life supported neighbours dies.
20:44:56 <zuff> Any cell on life support with two or three live neighbours becomes living.
20:44:58 <zuff> ^ game of life and life support
20:45:05 <Slereah> Heh.
20:45:12 <zuff> Life supported cells are reccomended to be repeesented as the colour inbetween live and dead
20:45:38 <zuff> oklopol: implement it.
20:46:07 <Warrigal> I wonder if MCell could do that.
20:46:16 <Slereah> "The catterpillar has emerged from its coccoon, as a shark, with a gun for its mouth"
20:46:36 <oklopol> zuff: never
20:46:48 <zuff> Fine, I'll implement it.
20:46:54 <zuff> oklopol: got my minigame library?
20:47:07 <oklopol> i don't got anything.
20:47:18 <zuff> oklopol: i gave it to you months ago, c'mon, you must have it
20:47:21 <zuff> you made pong in it :P
20:47:23 <oklopol> :P
20:47:28 <oklopol> yeah i have it *comeshwew*
20:47:30 <oklopol> ...
20:47:39 <oklopol> slight typo there.
20:47:41 <oklopol> *somewhere
20:47:45 <Warrigal> So Life, except life -> support and support -> death occur where death would occur, support -> life occurs where survival would occur, and death -> life occurs where birth would occur?
20:47:49 <zuff> find it and vjn.fi/pb it :P
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20:48:09 <zuff> Warrigal: There are some unchanged rules.
20:48:11 <Warrigal> And for certain ones of those, support counts as life, and for others, it doesn't?
20:48:31 <zuff> The theory is that every cell needs healthy neighbours to survive.
20:48:35 <Warrigal> Oh, right.
20:48:40 <zuff> And overpopulation is overpopulation healthy or not.
20:49:00 <zuff> Ditto with the right population, although that might need tweaking.
20:49:09 <zuff> Life support is just: have conditions improved, stayed the same, or worsened?
20:49:15 <zuff> If the first, it revives. Otherwise, it dies.
20:49:34 * zuff walks through a glider in it manually
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20:52:38 -!- nice_ has changed nick to KingOfKarlsruhe.
20:52:46 <zuff> Eh, it's too tedious.
20:53:17 <Warrigal> I don't think a glider will glide.
20:53:29 <Slereah> It will, it's right in the name!
20:53:39 <Slereah> Unless you mean like
20:53:45 <Slereah> .#.
20:53:47 <Slereah> ..#
20:53:50 <Slereah> ###
20:54:01 <Slereah> Is that the glider? I forgot.
20:54:06 <oklopol> yeah
20:54:07 <Warrigal> Yep.
20:54:11 <oklopol> that's the glider
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20:54:25 <Slereah> I know like three Life thingamagig.
20:54:37 <Slereah> The three basic groups, really.
20:54:37 <Warrigal> Or the lesser-known phase:
20:54:39 <Warrigal> #..
20:54:40 <Warrigal> .##
20:54:43 <Warrigal> ##.
20:54:46 <oklopol> yeah
20:54:52 <Slereah> A block, an oscillator and a spaceship.
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20:55:03 <Slereah> Well, there's also guns, but they're too big to remember like that
20:55:43 <Warrigal> I know of a few still lifes, possibly more than one oscillator, and the glider and [LMH]WSS.
20:55:45 -!- comex has changed nick to zzuf.
20:55:48 -!- zzuf has changed nick to comex.
20:55:58 <oklopol> they're not that hard to remember if you understand how they work
20:56:06 <Warrigal> Actually, I know of infinitely many still lifes.
20:56:15 <oklopol> still life?
20:56:26 <oklopol> you mean, an object that is immortal, just sits around
20:56:30 <Slereah> Warrigal : Connected still life?
20:56:42 <Warrigal> Yep.
20:56:52 <Slereah> HOW!
20:57:31 <oklopol> err, just do like
20:57:32 <oklopol> oo
20:57:34 <oklopol> _oo
20:57:36 <oklopol> __oo
20:57:38 <oklopol> etc
20:57:43 <oklopol> oh right
20:57:48 <Slereah> Oh.
20:57:54 * oklopol forgot the rules!
20:57:56 <oklopol> :P
20:58:02 <Slereah> Rule 34 bitch
20:58:19 <Slereah> I wonder what the game of life would be if 2D automatons used the Wolfram numbering
20:58:25 <zuff> Awful
20:58:26 <zuff> :P
20:58:50 <Slereah> Well, there's probably a shitload of numbers
20:58:59 <Slereah> Since the game of life is isotropic
20:59:09 <Slereah> Plus every color inversion
20:59:45 <Warrigal> That's no still life.
20:59:48 <Warrigal> .#
20:59:50 <Warrigal> #.#
20:59:51 <Warrigal> .#.#
20:59:53 <Warrigal> ..#.#
20:59:55 <Warrigal> ...#.#
20:59:57 <Warrigal> ....#
21:02:46 <zuff> s
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21:09:22 <zuff> a
21:11:58 <oklopol> Warrigal: yeah that works, i wasn't really thinking
21:12:36 <zuff> we should all collaborate on a program. :P
21:12:44 <oklopol> Warrigal: hmm, how can you start a sidetrack from that?
21:13:02 <oklopol> i mean you can't draw stuff having just that
21:13:15 <Warrigal> You want to draw stuff?
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21:23:20 <oklopol> Warrigal: say i do.
21:23:24 <Warrigal> Okay.
21:23:30 <Warrigal> Put them really close together.
21:23:45 <oklopol> that's not connected.
21:23:55 <Warrigal> Use a different fuse.
21:24:02 <Warrigal> I believe MCell has an example.
21:24:10 <oklopol> that's really what i was asking for.
21:24:18 <oklopol> so kind of obvious i want that
21:25:19 <Warrigal> Then get it.
21:26:47 <oklopol> err i mean the pattern, not the program
21:26:57 <oklopol> i was just wondering, i'm not especially interesting
21:27:08 <oklopol> i just assume you're currently more gol-able than me
21:27:16 <zuff>
21:29:10 <zuff> So.
21:29:11 <zuff> I'm bored.
21:29:18 <zuff> I will finish my Snake game in C and play it.
21:29:37 <oklopol> have you tried crossworm
21:30:03 <oklopol> it probably has the worst user interface ever
21:30:09 <oklopol> i mean
21:30:12 <oklopol> to play solo
21:30:18 <oklopol> there's a button to kill off player 2
21:30:21 <zuff> Link?
21:30:27 <oklopol> and there's only a few seconds before the game starts
21:30:39 <oklopol> and it takes about that time to adjust your eyes to see the worm
21:30:46 <oklopol> very annoying
21:30:47 <oklopol> err
21:30:51 <oklopol> www.vjn.fi
21:31:16 <zuff> Kewel, my snake segfaults
21:32:13 * zuff wget http://www.vjn.fi/g/crossworm.pyc
21:32:41 <zuff> Fatal Python error: (pygame parachute) Bus Error
21:32:41 <zuff> zsh: abort python crossworm.pyc
21:32:42 <zuff> oklopol: but
21:32:47 <zuff> i cannot do crosseyes
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21:32:48 <zuff> :*
21:32:49 <zuff> :(
21:33:12 <oklopol> noob ; )
21:35:16 <oklopol> it's not hard to learn
21:35:21 <zuff> my eyes just don't do it
21:35:21 <zuff> :P
21:35:29 <oklopol> it's not hard to learn
21:35:42 <fizzie> With one selection of colors and Wolfram-like numbering, Life would be rule 47634829485252037513201013286088668282768170057352664824758043712595701137265078991199718623260253982640356387398937188476931618032046341864.
21:36:11 <Slereah> Heh.
21:36:16 <zuff> Welp, my snake game works, but about 40534853453745x faster than it should
21:36:19 <Slereah> That's one big number!
21:36:45 <fizzie> It's just a 512-bit number; since there are 2^9 possibilities for the 3x3 square.
21:37:05 <fizzie> No longer than a reasonable SHA-512 hash.
21:37:36 <Slereah> But kinda long for a name!
21:37:45 <Slereah> Rule 110 rolls off the tongue nicely.
21:38:26 <fizzie> You could call it rule 0x100010001000101170117000100010117011701170117177E177E000100010117011701170117177E177E01170117177E177E177E177E7EE87EE8, too; that's shorter and more repetitive.
21:38:57 <Slereah> What about in ASCII?
21:39:31 <oklopol> can't you see..?
21:39:50 <Slereah> I can't really read hexa.
21:40:07 <oklopol> the first character is 0x10
21:40:10 <Corun> The second byte is a null
21:40:14 <oklopol> yes
21:40:14 <Corun> Which is unfortunate
21:40:44 <Slereah> Why can't null have a cutesy symbol like SOH?
21:40:56 <oklopol> Slereah: hex -> ascii conversion is so trivial it's impossible not to be able to do it
21:40:57 <Warrigal> I'm sure we could all do with a few more control characters in our lives.
21:41:09 <fizzie> Rule AAAAAAABAAEAAQABARcBFwABAAEBFwEXARcBFxd+F34AAQABARcBFwEXARcXfhd+ARcBFxd+F34Xfhd+fuh+6A== in base64.
21:41:21 <oklopol> hmm that's nice
21:41:36 <Slereah> oklopol : What, you know every ASCII chars?
21:41:37 <fizzie> Maybe it could have a nickname like "the fuh rule".
21:41:52 <Slereah> Heh.
21:41:56 <Corun> You mean you don't Slereah?!
21:41:58 <Slereah> Arc-fuh
21:41:58 <oklopol> Slereah: no
21:42:22 <oklopol> Slereah: that doesn't mean i can't see 99% of that wasn't letters
21:42:46 <Slereah> Yes, but what of the letters? :o
21:42:49 <Slereah> Or symbols?
21:43:02 <oklopol> hmm?
21:43:43 <Warrigal> Hmm. Using # to mean XOR the next character with 0x40, $ to mean XOR it with 0x80, and % to mean XOR it with 0xC0...
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21:44:34 <fizzie> According to hexdump -C, which converts all non-printable and >127 too into a dot, it's ".............................~.~.............~.~.....~.~.~.~~.~.".
21:44:49 <fizzie> 0x7e ~ is just about the only readable thing it has.
21:45:29 <Warrigal> Okay, this instead: # toggles XORing with 0x40, $ toggles XORing with 0x80.
21:46:38 <Warrigal> No, it's too boring.
21:47:01 <fizzie> For the reference, I used the following to generate the bitstring for that number:
21:47:04 <fizzie> perl -e '$rule = ""; for ($val = 511; $val >= 0; $val--) { $bits = unpack("B9", chr($val/2).chr(($val&1)*128)); $self = substr($bits, 4, 1); $neighs = substr($bits, 0, 4).substr($bits, 5, 4); $nlive = $neighs; $nlive =~ s/0//g; $nlive = length($nlive); if ($nlive < 2 || $nlive > 3) { $rule .= "0"; } elsif ($live == 2) { $rule .= $self; } else { $rule .= "1"; } } print $rule, "\n";'
21:47:21 <fizzie> The ugliness of it.
21:49:20 <zuff> Coool
21:49:22 <zuff> My snake works
21:49:24 <zuff> :D
21:49:41 <Slereah> WHY DID IT HAVE TO BE SNAKES
21:50:28 <zuff> Okay I take that back it kind of works
21:52:05 <zuff> oklopol:
21:52:06 <zuff> if (SNAKE->last->x == 0) n = 39;
21:52:06 <zuff> else n = SNAKE->last->x - 1;
21:52:08 <zuff> i am stupid
21:52:12 <zuff> that can be compressed
21:52:13 <zuff> obviously
21:52:15 <zuff> how ;_;
21:52:20 <zuff> a simple modulo don't work
21:55:00 <oerjan> n = (SNAKE->last->x || 40) - 1 perhaps
21:55:08 <zuff> clever
21:58:23 <zuff> oklopol:
21:58:24 <zuff> 2+2
21:59:09 <MizardX> n = (SNAKE->last->x + 39) % 40
21:59:16 <zuff> MizardX: Ouch. :)
22:00:38 <zuff> Best snake variant: You grow by one each move. Avoid hitting into yourself.
22:03:13 <MizardX> Easy as long as you follow some pattern.
22:12:27 -!- Judofyr has joined.
22:13:49 <zuff> 22:13 NickServ: penguinofthegods@gmail.com has too many nicknames registered.
22:13:52 <zuff> Suck my dick freenode.
22:14:55 <oerjan> you cybersquatter you
22:15:31 <Warrigal> What are your nicks?
22:16:16 <zuff> Warrigal: Lots.
22:17:40 <Warrigal> Oh, apparently I also have too many nicknames registered.
22:18:15 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to ihope.
22:18:26 <zuff> ihope: Rate my name from 1-10
22:19:41 <ihope> I've dropped some nicknames; let's see if I can drop now.
22:19:46 <ihope> Sorry, I only rate names ordinally.
22:19:47 <zuff> TELL MEEEEE
22:19:52 <zuff> ihope: Do that then
22:19:55 <ihope> Okay.
22:22:47 <ihope> Perfect in the pronunciation category, antiperfect in the starting with a capital letter category, not as good as "Slereah" but better than "fizzie" in the containing an A, O or U (preferably A or O) category...
22:23:01 <ihope> s/pronunciation/pronounceability/
22:23:12 <ihope> Or is it pronuncibility or something.
22:24:20 <ihope> Antiperfect in the sonorant consonant category.
22:25:52 -!- ihope has changed nick to Warrigal.
22:26:34 <Warrigal> This nick has been registered.
22:27:41 -!- Slereah has changed nick to Incrediblon.
22:27:48 <Incrediblon> Well, this one hasn't.
22:29:48 <zuff> Warrigal: I dislike initial-caps nicks.
22:29:56 <zuff> And it's a bit hard to pronounce, too many consonants.
22:30:09 <zuff> Also, I'd rank fizzie > Slereah.
22:30:16 <zuff> Also, you forgot the "short and memorable" category.
22:30:20 <MizardX> 'w' and 'x' is unregisterd.
22:30:20 <zuff> Which I excell at with zuff.
22:30:31 <zuff> MizardX: they're erroneous
22:30:36 <zuff> because they're quakenet servcies
22:30:38 <zuff> like q
22:30:46 <zuff> You can't /nick to them
22:30:59 <MizardX> -NickServ- Information on q (account jack):
22:31:10 <zuff> Yes, that was years ago, presumably.
22:31:11 <zuff> Try /nick q
22:35:35 -!- oerjan has changed nick to Mgrvgrvladje.
22:35:44 <Mgrvgrvladje> who's complaining about consonants?
22:35:49 -!- Mgrvgrvladje has changed nick to oerjan.
22:36:36 <zuff> Warrigal:
22:37:11 <oerjan> (supposedly a genuine georgian surname)
22:38:00 <Warrigal> Nicks should begin with capital letters, A is the best vowel, and non-sonorant consonants should only be used to separate vowels.
22:38:39 <zuff> for(s=c='',r=64;r;)s+=++c>63?c=r--&&'\n':c<r?' ':~c&r?' ·':' ●';document.innerHTML='<pre>'+s+'</pre>';
22:38:42 <zuff> discuss
22:38:57 <zuff> Warrigal: Justify the first point, I disagree. Also the second.
22:38:59 <oerjan> check |/ on everything except capitals
22:39:58 <oerjan> zuff: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:40:05 <zuff> oerjan: What
22:40:57 <oerjan> that's my comment on the debate regarding that thing
22:41:35 <Warrigal> Capital letters are like standing up. Sitting causes restlessness.
22:42:14 <zuff> Warrigal: But aesthetically, I prefer lowercase for names.
22:43:32 <Warrigal> Capital letters make them seem more like actual names and less like usernames.
22:43:47 <Warrigal> I don't suppose you plan on changing your name from Elliott Hird to elliott hird.
22:43:50 <zuff> Warrigal: I am fine with seeming like a username.
22:43:56 <Warrigal> Though that may be difficult and time-consuming.
22:44:01 <zuff> Also, my name is not aesthetically pleasing anyway.
22:44:14 <zuff> If I decide I like the name zuff, I would probably have no qualm changing my name to it IRL.
22:45:11 <Warrigal> I guess zuff sounds like getting scratched behind the ear.
22:45:12 <zuff> Warrigal: So I think you're wrong.
22:45:15 <Warrigal> But only if you're a dog.
22:45:18 <zuff> And lol.
22:45:24 <zuff> But srsly, why is a the best consonant?
22:45:26 <oerjan> my name is Zuff. Dr., er, what first name goes well with Zuff?
22:45:43 <Warrigal> I was going to say Frank, but I'm not so sure.
22:45:59 <fizzie> You should invent a device; then it could be called Zuff's Device.
22:46:03 <oerjan> something suitably mad-sounding of course
22:46:07 <zuff> fizzie: Heh.
22:46:11 <oerjan> Viktor Zuff perhaps
22:46:12 <zuff> I think the problem is that it has no solid consonant.
22:46:28 <zuff> the z is weedy, the ff is awkward, kind of bu-ff-ery
22:46:39 <zuff> and the vowel is basically lost
22:46:45 <Warrigal> Yeah.
22:46:47 <oerjan> z should be pronounced ts, of course
22:46:53 <zuff> oerjan: lol
22:47:09 <Warrigal> I guess you need some solid consonants to keep the other consonants from drifting off to nowhere.
22:47:43 <pikhq> zuff: Nice C.
22:47:48 <oerjan> hm i wonder if zuff means something in german
22:47:51 <Warrigal> That's why the letter D is nice. It's a voiced stop consonant, and all.
22:48:00 <pikhq> Erm.
22:48:03 <pikhq> Not C.
22:48:07 <zuff> pikhq: Wat?
22:48:09 <oerjan> hey there's a User:Zuff on wp
22:48:13 <zuff> pikhq: THat's JS. :P
22:48:16 <zuff> And I stole it.
22:48:16 <pikhq> Yeah.
22:48:20 <pikhq> Realised after the fact.
22:48:25 <zuff> oerjan: It's a four-letter combination; I'm not surprised.
22:48:27 <pikhq> Looks like good obfuscated C, though.
22:48:49 <oerjan> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=zuff
22:49:08 <zuff> oerjan: One definition made in 2006 and it's nonsensical.
22:49:28 <Warrigal> B, D and G are the voiced plosives.
22:49:45 * Warrigal ponders whether "Warribal", "Warridal", or "Warrigal" is best
22:49:50 <zuff> Warrigal: I content that Warrigal is a crap name because it starts on a downer with W
22:49:53 <Warrigal> "Warribal" looks too much like "cannibal".
22:50:03 <Warrigal> No, the W makes it swing! Or something.
22:50:03 <zuff> Which sounds awkward with the relatively harsher latter end, and the a following it is hard to munch together
22:50:12 <zuff> So I'd aim for improving the start.
22:50:49 <oerjan> http://everything2.com/e2node/zuff
22:51:06 <Warrigal> A "W" to swing and an "rr" to sing, then you jump off the "g" and land with an "l"!
22:51:36 <Warrigal> How are you trying to pronounce the "arr", by the way?
22:52:28 <Warrigal> It should sound exactly like "horrible", except "w" instead of "h" and "g" instead of "b".
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22:52:48 <zuff> Warrigal: That's how I'm saying it. It's awkawrd.
22:52:53 <zuff> Seriously, the Wa is what ruins it,
22:53:01 <oerjan> http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Zuff-family-history.ashx
22:53:15 <oerjan> it exists! or did at one point
22:53:35 <zuff> heh.
22:53:49 <oerjan> a warrigal needs a furry gal
22:53:57 <Warrigal> Are you pronouncing the "rr" rhotically?
22:54:35 <Warrigal> I'd expect you to, as it's followed by a vowel.
22:55:24 <zuff> I'll make a recording.
22:55:25 <oerjan> you can huff and puff, but you can never snuff a zuff
22:56:50 <zuff> By the way, fizzie, zuff is derived from your name
22:56:54 <zuff> fuzz -> zzuf -> zuff
22:57:09 <zuff> Warrigal: http://filebin.ca/xcthqn/foo.aiff
22:59:52 <zuff> Warrigal: .
23:00:12 <Warrigal> Just a moment.
23:00:55 <Warrigal> Um, that's not you saying "Armageddon" again, is it?
23:01:10 <zuff> Warrigal: Err, that's me saying Warrigal.
23:01:12 <zuff> Several times.
23:01:18 <zuff> Ooops.
23:01:21 <zuff> I uploaded the wrong fil
23:01:21 <zuff> e
23:01:22 <zuff> xD
23:01:38 <Warrigal> I think a recording of someone saying "Warrigal" several times would be really scary.
23:01:50 <zuff> Warrigal: Er, why?
23:02:23 <oerjan> people accidentally saying "Armageddon" when they mean something else would also be scary
23:02:43 <oerjan> especially if a lot of people started doing it
23:04:37 <Warrigal> Are you waiting for me to respond or uploading that file?
23:05:18 <oerjan> are you multitasking or mulling the task
23:06:24 <zuff> Warrigal: uploading
23:07:27 <zuff> Warrigal: http://filebin.ca/mhgzgx/warrigal.aiff
23:09:43 <Warrigal> How many times do you say it?
23:10:23 <Warrigal> Most of those are non-rhotic, though you do have two rhotic ones in there.
23:10:55 <Warrigal> Okay, maybe three.
23:12:39 <Warrigal> Wait, "horrible" is pronounced differently in Britain, isn't it.
23:13:26 <Warrigal> This is why Americans are so much better than Brits. :-P
23:13:53 <zuff> Warrigal: Make a recording of you pronouncing it, then, so I can adjust my vocal cords. :P
23:13:53 <Warrigal> I'll see about recording me saying it.
23:14:58 <Warrigal> You just need to move your lips closer together, and your teeth.
23:15:36 <Warrigal> Gee, I just remembered that the official pronunciation of my name is actually completely different.
23:15:50 <Warrigal> I'll dismiss that as a joke.
23:17:33 <Warrigal> I guess I'll do more or less what you did.
23:20:18 <Warrigal> Try http://filebin.ca/bkqth/Warrigal-US.wma
23:22:57 <oklopol> she didn't die \o/
23:23:48 <Warrigal> In http://filebin.ca/bkqth/Warrigal-US.wma, she doesn't die at the end.
23:23:56 <Warrigal> I'm guessing zuff is finding a way to play .wma files.
23:24:04 <zuff> Warrigal: why wma? :{
23:24:19 <Warrigal> Because I hate you.
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23:24:26 <Warrigal> I'll try again.
23:24:29 <zuff> I agree. :D
23:24:36 <zuff> No, I can play .wmas
23:24:38 <zuff> But I hate you
23:24:39 <zuff> :D
23:24:55 <zuff> Warrigal: WAHGL WAHGL WAHGL WAHGL WAHGL
23:27:32 <Warrigal> So you've heard it?
23:27:43 <zuff> Yes.
23:28:33 <Warrigal> How do you like those pronunciations?
23:28:44 <zuff> Wahgl.
23:30:11 <Warrigal> They're both supposed to be three-syllable pronunciations. "Wahgl" is only two.
23:30:20 <zuff> Well, it's waaaaaaaaaahgl
23:30:24 <Warrigal> Though I'll admit the second pronunciation could have turned out better.
23:30:34 <Warrigal> It's supposed to be wah-uh-gl.
23:32:23 <oklopol> vehicle
23:34:19 <Warrigal> If you pronounce Warrigal wah-huh-gl, I will... decrease your Credit. :-P
23:35:51 <AnMaster> night all
23:36:09 <oklopol> i pronounce it "very cool"
23:36:45 <Warrigal> I can see a non-native speaker pronouncing it that way.
23:37:13 <oerjan> vrr-ptang-q'ool
23:41:38 <zuff> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahjjjjjjjjjj laggggggggg
23:41:45 <zuff> stupid "50 programs open at once i dont liek"
23:41:49 <zuff> RUN INFINITE PROGRAMS YOU POS
23:42:02 <Warrigal> That's why I have three programs open.
23:42:09 <oklopol> Warrigal: that's not the case
23:42:22 <Warrigal> That's why I have two windowed applications open.
23:42:53 <oklopol> in case you don't know yet, i find pretty much nothing more insulting than people telling me things that refer to my english capabilities as non-native.
23:43:21 <zuff> oklopol's awesome at english btw.
23:43:42 <oklopol> even when they're things like "non-native people like you are usually better at grammar"
23:43:51 <oklopol> (than natives)
23:44:43 <Warrigal> Do you mean you *actually* pronounce it that way?
23:44:45 <oklopol> well, of course anything that requires you to learn it younger than i currently am will do.
23:44:49 <oerjan> yes the we are better
23:45:25 <oklopol> Warrigal: finnishified, i pronounce it [woorig(o-umlaut)l]
23:45:44 <oklopol> i can't type the phonetic characters for those
23:45:45 <oerjan> orgel orgel orgel
23:46:12 <oklopol> o-umlaut is what finnish uses for that vowel english uses in the word "a"
23:46:20 <oklopol> of course it's a bit different
23:46:27 <oklopol> but they're close relatives
23:47:40 <oerjan> the letters a and ö grew up together on a small farm in Värmland, Sweden, but later moved in opposite directions
23:48:59 <oklopol> yeah, ö became a poor fisherman who enjoys the sauna, and occasionally makes operating systems and cell phones for pocket money, while a became a successful businessman who everyone has a hate-love relationship with
23:49:21 <zuff> lol
2008-12-07
00:12:44 <oklopol> my brains
00:12:49 <oklopol> they are going too fast
00:12:56 <oklopol> i can't read
00:12:59 <oklopol> i'm having visions
00:13:39 <olsner> brain*s*? how many brains do you have!?
00:14:06 <oklopol> i use it in plural and singular interchangeably
00:15:00 <oklopol> that's just something i've decided to do
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02:04:57 <GregorR> I wrote this comment in my code
02:04:57 <GregorR> / destroy the children
02:05:13 <GregorR> Only with two slashes, one of which XChat stripped away :P
02:05:52 <oklopol> hehe
02:06:18 <oklopol> is it a tree, or are you making the game of the year?
02:06:42 <GregorR> A tree :P
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03:50:38 <pikhq> GregorR: Nice works.
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05:29:48 <psygnisfive> hey guys
05:29:59 <psygnisfive> i think i might be mildly drunk for the first time in my life.
05:33:11 <GregorR> <psygnisfive> 'cuz I just woke up in bed with a WOMAN. WTF?
05:33:23 <GregorR> God I'm stupid and tired :P
05:33:29 <psygnisfive> why would that bother me?
05:33:38 <psygnisfive> im gay, not weird.
05:33:58 <GregorR> Heh :P
05:35:20 <psygnisfive> besides, i'd fuck a female. i just am not attractive to them.
06:25:42 <GregorR> $ c_count plof/ast/*.d plof/ap/*.d
06:25:42 <GregorR> ...
06:25:42 <GregorR> Total: 2185
06:25:58 <GregorR> Nothing makes you feel more manly than cranking out thousands of lines of complicated threading code in a day :P
06:32:33 <bsmntbombdood> throwing away half of it would be more manly
06:52:58 <Asztal> I think I've deleted almost every line of code I've written today :(
06:53:07 <Asztal> not that that's a great deal
06:55:45 <bsmntbombdood> i haven't written a line of code in six months
06:57:28 <Asztal> switched to http://www.instantexe.com/ ?
06:58:18 <bsmntbombdood> more like utterly depressed
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07:32:09 <pikhq> GregorR: Not bad.
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08:44:53 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: being depressed is for losers.
08:45:01 <bsmntbombdood> ja
08:45:47 <oklopol> :)
08:47:44 <oklopol> GregorR: i've written more in a day. about 3000, until i automated the process to make the ~37000 more.
08:48:40 <oklopol> but yeah that wasn't threading code, i'm sure that's the fundamental difference between these tasks
08:50:00 <oklopol> but seriously, i envy you, your life must be so great
08:55:14 <oklopol> what... there's a substance called codeine you can develop a physical dependence to
08:55:18 <oklopol> that's so cool :DDDDDDDDDDD
08:55:21 * oklopol wants
08:56:41 <bsmntbombdood> lol wut?
08:56:45 <bsmntbombdood> you didin't know that?
08:56:51 <bsmntbombdood> ever heard of heroine?
08:57:38 <oklopol> yes. is codeine as well-known?
08:59:57 <bsmntbombdood> codeine is a pussy drug
09:00:10 <bsmntbombdood> it's OTC in some countries
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13:27:16 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff.
13:27:33 <zuff> So, uh, why is my bouncer not working.
13:30:09 <decipher> it bounces too much?
13:30:19 <zuff> No, my IRC bouncer. :P
13:30:29 <decipher> same answer :P
13:30:33 <zuff> :)
13:30:59 <zuff> The solution is:
13:31:10 -!- zuff has set topic: Nobody can talk if zuff is idle. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
13:31:47 <decipher> yay i just coded a C64-esque game with completely procedural graphics and levels
13:32:11 <decipher> and the final executable is around 8kb music included
13:32:32 <decipher> oh music is procedural too of course :P
13:33:01 <zuff> decipher: what lang?
13:33:02 <zuff> c?
13:33:03 <zuff> asm?
13:33:08 <zuff> INSTANT.EXE?
13:33:18 <zuff> COBOL?
13:33:18 <decipher> C
13:33:30 <zuff> the correct answer was INSTANT.EXE
13:35:03 <decipher> actually i should code a pacman clone with brainfuck sometime
13:37:29 <zuff> decipher: that would be rather impossible, unless you have severe constraints
13:37:45 <zuff> graphics would consist of clearing the screen and outputting a bunch of stuff, input would require enter after each key, etc
13:37:47 <zuff> and no timing
13:37:59 <decipher> well of course i meant "to the extent possible"
13:38:43 <decipher> it would fit better if I call it a demake than a clone
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16:05:55 <SimonRC> GregorR: I have seen a better comment in some code at my company. "// always interested in children"
16:06:49 <GregorR> LOL
16:07:59 <zuff> SimonRC: hahahah
16:11:30 <SimonRC> since it was in a Listener (a.k.a visitor), someone named that the "pedophile Listener"
16:12:01 <SimonRC> When I read that instantexe site, my instincts scream "no"
16:12:32 <zuff> SimonRC: REAL. MEN.
16:13:00 <SimonRC> zuff: eh?
16:13:07 <zuff> SimonRC: instantexe.com homepage
16:13:23 <SimonRC> eh??
16:13:32 <zuff> SimonRC: er, enable images?
16:13:47 <SimonRC> uh
16:13:56 <SimonRC> those three remars don't really fit together
16:13:56 <zuff> unless you're blind I guess :P
16:14:07 <zuff> SimonRC: enable images, look at the instantexe.com homepage, then read my remakr
16:14:09 <zuff> *remark
16:14:26 <SimonRC> oh, the building blocks
16:14:43 <zuff> ...
16:14:49 <zuff> SimonRC: http://instantexe.com/images/banner_real_men.gif
16:14:55 <zuff> how blind can you get XD
16:17:30 <SimonRC> strangely, I am not too good at spotting 1x1 gifs on web pages
16:17:37 <zuff> SimonRC: what?
16:17:39 <zuff> it is not 1x1
16:17:45 <zuff> it's 576x234
16:18:06 <SimonRC> "banner_real_men.gif (GIF Image, 11 pixels):"
16:18:07 * zuff thinks SimonRC lives in a bizzaro-web
16:18:12 <zuff> SimonRC: umm, what.
16:18:23 <GregorR> Yeah, SimonRC clearly lives in bizarro-web.
16:18:31 <zuff> GregorR: you can see it right??
16:18:40 <GregorR> Of course.
16:18:46 <GregorR> Because I don't live in bizarro-web.
16:18:53 <zuff> good, I'm not totally bonkers yet then
16:19:12 <SimonRC> "0.04 kB (43 bytes)"
16:19:43 <zuff> SimonRC: WHAT
16:20:05 <SimonRC> sounds about right for a 1x1 gif
16:21:17 <zuff> SimonRC: IT'S NOT A 1X1 GIF
16:21:19 <zuff> AND IT'S NOT 43 BYTES
16:21:35 <GregorR> SimonRC: How's that extremely brutal firewall you're clearly behind treatin' you? :P
16:21:49 <zuff> oh
16:21:50 <zuff> hahah
16:23:15 <SimonRC> ok, so I tried loading it onto another shell server, and I find that it is large file as you said
16:23:35 <SimonRC> but loading onto my laptop from that server again gives a 1x1 gif
16:23:44 <zuff> lol wat
16:24:32 <SimonRC> I had to wget it into the shell account, zip it, move it to public_html, download it onto my laptop, and unzip it to get the damn picture.
16:24:36 <zuff> XD
16:24:40 <SimonRC> WTF
16:24:48 <GregorR> SimonRC: How's that extremely brutal firewall you're clearly behind treatin' you? :P
16:24:57 <SimonRC> GregorR: you already said that
16:25:02 <zuff> SimonRC: yes, he did
16:25:03 <GregorR> I realize that.
16:25:40 <GregorR> Hahaha, Copyright © 2006 XELERATE Software
16:25:58 <zuff> lol
16:26:01 <zuff> EX ELLERATE
16:26:09 <SimonRC> So what are you doing tommow then? Telling some people in wheelchairs to get better legs?
16:26:25 * SimonRC is in a surprisingly bad mood
16:26:29 <zuff> baww
16:26:43 <zuff> well, good analogy, except for the part where that's a terrible analogy
16:27:12 <SimonRC> well, it is bloody inconvinient and I can't do anything about it
16:27:17 <zuff> and?
16:27:19 <SimonRC> sounds like a good analogy to me
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16:28:08 <SimonRC> anyway, the consequences are as bad as I feared: http://www.instantexe.com/index.php?link_id=N_forum_entry&board_id=9&topic_id=254
16:28:24 <zuff> ...
16:28:26 <zuff> fucking hell
16:28:30 <zuff> i love it
16:28:44 <zuff> wait, are they passing around programs in base64?
16:28:45 <zuff> wow.
16:28:52 <SimonRC> alas, TDWFT probably wouldn't accept it, since it is very amature coding
16:29:05 <zuff> amature english, too OH SNAP
16:29:25 <zuff> <.< >.>
16:29:36 <GregorR> "On top of those you have created, Instant.EXE contains a lot of predefined variables. Let's use some of those!"
16:29:38 <GregorR> OH BOY
16:29:42 <zuff> XD
16:29:45 <zuff> YAYY
16:31:36 <GregorR> I think the retarded name for the project is really the best part though.
16:31:39 <GregorR> INSTANT.EXE!!!
16:31:41 <GregorR> YAAAYS
16:33:34 <Incrediblon> OH SHI-
16:33:40 <Incrediblon> You instantenuated me dude!
16:34:01 <zuff> Sorry, I was readjusting the gigaflux
16:34:03 <GregorR> 'I would recommend to make use of this function, since otherwise you might forget the “Loop end”-statement and spend hours debugging your code.'
16:34:09 <GregorR> It doesn't detect that as a syntax error? X-P
16:34:12 <zuff> GregorR: XD
16:34:15 <GregorR> Or at LEAST a semantic error?
16:34:29 <zuff> Enterprise coding
16:35:18 <SimonRC> I like how there is a forum for "Loops and Subroutines"
16:35:41 <SimonRC> that is so 50s
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19:35:57 <psygnisfive> lalala
19:36:59 <ehird> i
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19:38:01 <AnMaster> hi ehird
19:38:10 <ehird> hmm
19:38:14 <ehird> who changed my name?
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19:39:35 <psygnisfive> o.o
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19:47:59 <oklopol> ;)
19:54:42 <psygnisfive> oklopol
19:59:07 <oklopol> ;)
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21:47:02 <AnMaster> ah hi zuff
21:47:13 <zuff> what
21:47:27 <AnMaster> just saying hi, nothing wrong with that
21:47:38 <AnMaster> thought you were ehird first heh
21:49:01 <oerjan> hey wait a minute
21:49:19 <oerjan> i still do
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23:10:04 <MizardX> Lots of spam on the wiki lately.
23:10:12 <zuff> ufg
23:10:13 <zuff> *ugh
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23:10:35 <damianc> any idea how to read a process descriptor in a task_struct?
23:10:42 <zuff> damianc: Hm?
23:10:52 <zuff> Wrong channel, maybe?
23:11:58 <damianc> oh right
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23:12:22 <oerjan> well, someone here probably knows
23:12:36 <zuff> oerjan: he's gone already
23:12:49 <zuff> oerjan: that's the damien conway of perligata, btw.
23:13:13 <zuff> He mistakenly found exactly the right channel XD
23:13:42 <oerjan> aha :D
23:14:37 <zuff> hahahahah, apparently he typoed "esoteric" for "c"
23:14:37 <oerjan> well that makes it harder, since we would have to tell him in latin. maybe ais523 could manage.
23:15:03 <oerjan> um, has he been here before?
23:15:17 <oerjan> otherwise that's rather an accident
23:15:41 <zuff> dunno.
23:15:42 <oerjan> not everyone can accidentally #esoteric
23:15:49 <zuff> I'll grep
23:15:55 <bsmntbombdood> i accidently the verb
23:16:30 <oerjan> i dropped the main word
23:16:31 <zuff> wait wait
23:16:31 <zuff> bsmntbombdood:
23:16:34 <zuff> THE WHOLE VERB??
23:16:43 <zuff> oerjan: never here before
23:18:40 <oerjan> darn
23:18:51 <zuff> we should all pester him until he comes back
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23:19:13 <bsmntbombdood> i accidently forgot the
23:19:35 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: i dropped the wrong word
23:19:35 <bsmntbombdood> or, i accidently the AND the!
23:20:06 <zuff> who wants to play
23:20:07 <zuff> ESOLANG
23:20:08 <zuff> TENNIES???
23:20:11 <zuff> TINNES
23:20:12 <zuff> TENNIS
23:22:20 <Slereah-> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Paul_Sally
23:22:24 <Slereah-> Read that shit people
23:22:29 <Slereah-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Sally
23:22:34 <Slereah-> That dude is a math pirate
23:22:36 <Slereah-> Literaly
23:22:40 <Slereah-> It's on his wikipedia page
23:22:50 <zuff> He wears an eye patch and has two prosthetic legs
23:22:51 <zuff> duuuuuuuuuude
23:23:39 <Slereah-> He couldn't be pirater if he had hooks for hands.
23:24:01 <zuff> Slereah-: Yes. Yes he could be.
23:24:04 <Slereah-> "If there is a subset of the reals and it's cardinality is greater than aleph naught and less than C and it's Lebesgue measureable, then it has measure zero and we don't care."
23:24:14 <Slereah-> And his jokes are awesome for nerds
23:31:08 <zuff> http://search.cpan.org/~dconway/Quantum-Superpositions-1.03/lib/Quantum/Superpositions.pm
23:31:12 <zuff> Okay, damien conway is awesome
23:31:17 <zuff> that library would be sooo useful
23:31:22 <oerjan> i think if i had had such a teacher i would have snapped and gone on a killing spree
23:31:41 <oerjan> but hey, what do i know
23:33:03 -!- jix has quit ("...").
23:33:18 <Slereah-> oerjan : Ever went on a killing spree?
23:33:24 <oerjan> not yet
23:34:02 <oerjan> unless you include that ant invasion this spring
23:34:34 <oerjan> i was _trying_ to let them out alive, but they just kept coming back
23:34:44 <Slereah-> You sound like Rambo.
23:34:53 <Slereah-> I DIDN'T DRAW FIRST BLOOD!
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2008-12-08
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00:45:00 <MizardX> Heh. Even though I use base64 encoding, I still get over 100x compression: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p523415122.txt :)
01:00:11 <Warrigal> What are you compressing?
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01:32:28 <MizardX> rgba image data
01:33:09 <MizardX> 8 bit per channel
01:33:54 <MizardX> three images, each 288x288x32 bits long
01:37:19 <Warrigal> What are they images of?
01:38:24 <Warrigal> Analog computer tolerances?
01:43:40 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out).
01:44:49 <MizardX> Simplest would be to run the script. They are image-components used to generate block-pieces that could be used in a tetris-game or other game with rectalinear blocks.
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11:54:21 <oklopol> p-adic analysis <<< i kinda lolled when reading this as p-dantic analysis
11:54:27 <oklopol> that might be a fun subject
11:56:36 <Slereah-> "One of my students once asked me what the p-adic norm measures. I told him it measures the p-ness of a rational number."
11:59:56 <oklopol> did he also say "arrrr"
12:00:43 <Slereah-> Most probably.
12:00:55 <oklopol> yes very likably
12:01:09 <Slereah-> I think one of my favorite quote is "Now that I'm going to have a second prosthetic leg, I could be seven feet tall if I wanted to be."
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12:35:55 <pikhq> Bleck. I managed to stay up until about 6... At this point, there's basically little point in me going to sleep.
12:37:01 <oerjan> you could pretend - TO BE A VAMPIRE
12:37:57 <pikhq> Bweheheh.
12:38:14 <pikhq> Well, I *am* a creature of the night.
12:38:33 <pikhq> Especially on weekends, where I typically go to sleep a little bit after sunrise.
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14:54:22 <pikhq> Haldo, folk.
14:54:29 <ais523_> hi
14:54:32 <zuff> hi.
14:54:49 <oklopol> hi
14:54:51 <oerjan> gwættmidda
14:55:01 <pikhq> Sleep is for mere mortals.
14:55:26 <zuff> I am a mere mortal.
14:55:43 -!- sebbu has joined.
14:55:43 <pikhq> Therefore, you are denied the joys that come from not sleeping.
14:55:44 <oerjan> I am a mer-mortal
14:56:01 <pikhq> oerjan: Is that kinda like a were-mortal?
14:56:08 <oerjan> except more fishy
14:56:16 <ais523_> pikhq: I've had stupid sleep patterns over the last few days
14:56:29 <ais523_> I slept from 10am to 7pm last Sunday
14:56:36 <pikhq> I've had stupid sleep patterns for the past week.
14:56:37 <ais523_> and not at all Saturday evening
14:56:45 <pikhq> And managed to sleep through most all of my classes.
14:57:08 <ais523_> it was weird, actually; I dreamed that the real life courts were called in to settle a dispute in a Nomic because it became relevant somehow
14:57:09 <zuff> i still find it hilarious that damien conway of perligata fame came in here instead of ##c by the most unlikely typo ever yesterday (i grepped, he's never been here before) and promptly left when he realised XD
14:57:23 <pikhq> *Conway*?
14:57:34 <zuff> Yeah. This'un: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damian_Conway
14:57:43 <ais523_> and TAEB had become a physical robot and was zooming around, someone had given it a high-power welding laser and it was fixing cracks in metal window frames
14:57:56 <pikhq> Not as cool as who I was thinking of.
14:58:04 <oerjan> pikhq: no, not that conway. _that_ would have been impressive.
14:58:05 <ais523_> different Conway
14:58:11 <zuff> I did say Damian.
14:58:12 <zuff> :P
14:58:14 <ais523_> but how does someone manage to typo #esoteric rather than ##c?
14:58:16 <pikhq> oerjan: Yeah.
14:58:19 <pikhq> ais523_: :)
14:58:22 <zuff> ais523_: I have no effing idea.
14:58:25 <zuff> None at all.
14:58:25 <ais523_> must have been a misclick on a list of IRC channels
14:58:29 <ais523_> that's the only thing I can think of
14:58:35 <ais523_> maybe he /whoised one of us
14:58:36 <zuff> e isn't exactly close to c
14:58:40 <oerjan> i have a pet theory that psygnisfive is really David Madore.
14:58:43 <ais523_> thought "ah, I want to visit ##c"
14:58:51 <zuff> ais523_: he asked a question
14:58:51 <ais523_> tried to click on it and hit #esoteric which was next to it in the channel list
14:58:57 <zuff> so he probably only started an irc client to go there and ask it
14:59:02 <zuff> he was in no other channels, i checked
14:59:02 <oerjan> er wait
14:59:11 <oerjan> darn i've mixed up the evidence
14:59:34 <ais523_> I think he'd probably find it very amusing that we think of him mostly for Perligata
15:00:09 <zuff> i asked him where he meant to go in /msg and he said ##c, then I said as a side-note that we like perligata in #esoteric
15:00:13 <zuff> (his reply was "ok")
15:00:24 <zuff> (translation: "you're all bonkers")
15:01:01 <pikhq> Hahah.
15:01:13 <pikhq> We are, indeed, bonkers. But that's beside the point.
15:01:28 <zuff> http://search.cpan.org/~dconway/Quantum-Superpositions-1.03/lib/Quantum/Superpositions.pm i actually expected this to exist when I started programming
15:01:31 <zuff> I always wished I could do:
15:01:36 <zuff> if (a == (1 || 2 || 3))
15:01:41 <zuff> as in, "if a is one of 1, 2, 3"
15:01:49 <zuff> that's if ($a == any(1,2,3)) with that
15:01:52 <oklopol> that's so original
15:01:55 <oerjan> zuff: i think Icon has something like that
15:02:02 <zuff> oklopol: i never said it was unique
15:02:03 <pikhq> Unfortunately, I've not been doing much esoteric programming of late...
15:02:07 <zuff> but it was just so expected
15:02:13 <ais523_> member(a,[1,2,3])
15:02:20 <ais523_> *member(A,[1,2,3])
15:02:21 <pikhq> Instead, I've been doing CS homework in a slightly obfuscated style, making graders hate me.
15:02:22 <zuff> ais523_: that's a bad idiom, though
15:02:31 <zuff> it doesn't reflect what it actually is saying
15:02:34 <oklopol> zuff: and i never said it wasn't unique! in fact i meant something between sarcasm and not sarcasm that made that somehow relevant.
15:02:44 <zuff> Python's syntax for that, "a in [1,2,3]" is marginally better in that respect.
15:02:48 <zuff> But still.
15:02:54 <ais523_> zuff: maybe, I'm actually thinking of that statement as creating the any(1,2,3) though
15:03:03 <ais523_> so you'd say member(Superposition,[1,2,3])
15:03:09 <ais523_> then on the next line A = Superposition
15:03:15 <zuff> read the docs :P
15:03:17 <ais523_> except I collapsed it for efficiency and shortness
15:03:34 <ais523_> I don't think you can do that in Python...
15:03:35 <oerjan> oklopol: you meant a superposition, obviously :D
15:03:52 <ais523_> at least, not as in b in [1,2,3]\n<insert spaces here>a = b
15:04:01 <zuff> ais523_: you can write Quantum::Superposition in Python, almost surely.
15:04:14 <ais523_> <insert spaces here> because it's impossible to write a snippet of Python without either knowing its context, or oepying
15:04:21 <ais523_> zuff: yes, but that's cheating, you're overloading =
15:04:25 <ais523_> or ==
15:04:26 <ais523_> or whatever
15:04:29 <zuff> ais523_: you write python at 0-indent
15:04:39 <zuff> that's just organizational structure
15:04:40 <ais523_> sorry, been using single-equals-for-equality langs too much recently
15:04:50 <zuff> als
15:04:51 <zuff> also
15:04:56 <zuff> Quantum::Superpositions overloads ==
15:04:57 <zuff> and stuff
15:05:00 <ais523_> yes, obviously
15:05:05 <ais523_> the Prolog program works without overloads
15:05:13 <zuff> umm, yes?
15:05:16 <ais523_> IIRC you can overload = in Prolog, doing so would be crazy though
15:05:26 <ais523_> it's quite easy to overload fail by mistake to make it succeed
15:05:39 <ais523_> I've never tried to run a program that does that, though
15:05:43 <ais523_> probably luckily for my sanity
15:09:00 <oerjan> you have sanity? i'm afraid we must kickban you.
15:09:09 * zuff nods.
15:09:10 <ais523_> well, I'm leaving now anyway
15:09:16 <zuff> YOU CANNOT ESCAPE
15:09:20 <ais523_> but I see your point
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15:09:26 <zuff> AGH
15:09:28 <oklopol> :D
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15:19:52 <zuff> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TswTenrEwwM
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15:51:04 <zuff> hi ais523
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16:16:37 <ais523> zuff: by the way, I just tried to unsubscribe from one of the Wolfram mailing lists
16:16:43 <zuff> lol
16:16:50 <ais523> which I don't think I deliberately subscribed to, it was some automatic subscription for some reason
16:17:00 <ais523> and got "please allow 2 business days for your request to be processed"
16:17:18 <zuff> hahahahahah
16:17:18 * ais523 wonders why a mailing list would need time to process unsubscription requests, do they do it manually?
16:17:28 <zuff> probably, just like the mathematica trials
16:17:50 <ais523> I've maintained a mailing list before now by hand
16:18:00 <ais523> but unsubscription requests effectively took effect immediately
16:18:07 <ais523> because I checked for them before sending out messages
16:18:08 <zuff> [[speaking of which, mathematica 7 has found its way onto the torrent sites, but only the windows version...]]
16:18:12 <ais523> which was also done by hand
16:18:22 <zuff> <.< >.>
16:18:49 <oklopol> AND YOU SAY WINDOWS ISN'T GREAT!
16:19:20 <ais523> my trial version of Mathematica was the Windows version, btw
16:19:32 <ais523> partly because that was the only OS I had access to at the time
16:19:38 <zuff> to be honest, I'm not sure I _want_ to try and run mathematica on here
16:19:41 <zuff> how much memory does it use?
16:19:49 <zuff> I'll bet more than Photoshop, and damn is that thing slow.
16:19:50 <ais523> zuff: don't know
16:19:56 <ais523> it used lots when running something complex
16:20:03 <ais523> to the point that it was hard to get into the GUI to kill the process
16:20:07 <zuff> Photoshop consistently uses, like, 200 MB.
16:20:13 <ais523> (either Mathematica's process-kill GUI, or Windows')
16:29:44 <zuff> I should write something in Perl.
16:29:51 <zuff> Just to kill myself.
16:29:59 <ais523> why?
16:30:07 <ais523> I don't think there's an ACME::Suicide yet, by the way
16:30:07 <zuff> Why not?
16:30:19 <ais523> but I suggest not thinking about Mathematica, your life will seem happier almost instantly
16:30:24 <zuff> Also, Acme/Suicide.pm is a link to Editor/PerlEmacs.pm.
16:30:57 <ais523> PerlEmacs?
16:31:24 <zuff> ais523: That is the result of someone selling their soul to satan in return for a copy of emacs written in perl.
16:31:56 <zuff> http://guyro.typepad.com/blog/2008/12/google-i.html
16:32:33 <zuff> [[Only that Google used Python for its robots. ]] <- um, no.
16:34:05 <ais523> going for a bit
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17:03:23 <AnMaster> ais523, hello
17:03:29 <AnMaster> ais523, see /msg when you get back
17:03:52 <zuff> AnMaster: his bouncer tells him of private messages.
17:03:58 <zuff> please don't tell the channel about private messages...
17:07:44 <AnMaster> zuff, true, the issue was I wrote them yesterday evening and he haven't noticed them, he doesn't seem to read the stored messages unless you ask him
17:07:52 <AnMaster> :/
17:08:09 <zuff> he reads mine, maybe he just has nothing to say?
17:08:10 <AnMaster> (it was about some errors in the ick manual
17:08:17 <AnMaster> )
17:08:19 <AnMaster> zuff, maybe
17:08:20 <AnMaster> hm
17:08:27 <zuff> the highlight in-channel is the same as the highlight from -psyBNC's private message
17:08:29 <zuff> :P
17:08:55 * zuff watches a car evolve (http://www.wreck.devisland.net/ga/, flash)
17:09:28 <zuff> Dammit, you're breeding the wrong ones! Stupid evolution!
17:10:01 <AnMaster> car evolution? sounds interesting enough to make the complex stuff needed to reach flash
17:10:17 <zuff> AnMaster: what? I meant it's coded in flash
17:10:30 <zuff> (disclaimer: if that was a joke, i ignored it because it's the least funny thing ever)
17:10:46 <AnMaster> no just a misunderstanding
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17:10:56 <AnMaster> I just don't have flash on this computer
17:10:58 <zuff> it's a bunch of polygons :P
17:11:02 <AnMaster> but the title was interesting enough
17:11:07 <Slereah_> GOOD EVENING NEWS MEDIA
17:11:07 <zuff> Well, notrly.
17:11:11 <AnMaster> that I'll ssh over and X forward
17:11:29 <zuff> AnMaster: might be a bit resource intensive; unless your ssh connection is really fast :P
17:11:33 <zuff> it's realtime
17:11:34 <zuff> hi ais523
17:11:51 <zuff> C'mon little car
17:11:52 <zuff> You can do i t
17:12:01 <AnMaster> wow interesting
17:12:04 <AnMaster> ais523, see /msg
17:12:14 <AnMaster> zuff, and gbit lan
17:12:16 <AnMaster> works fine
17:12:20 <zuff> ah.
17:12:35 <zuff> oh wow
17:12:36 <ais523> <AnMaster> zuff, true, the issue was I wrote them yesterday evening and he haven't noticed them, he doesn't seem to read the stored messages unless you ask him <--- ironically, that's normally true, except I decided to read my PMs just before I noticed you said that
17:12:37 <zuff> that is a good one
17:12:53 <AnMaster> haha
17:12:58 <zuff> I /playprivatelog, /eraseprivatelog all the time
17:13:03 <zuff> I should probably put it on startup
17:13:04 <zuff> oh wait
17:13:07 <zuff> I know why its not playing back
17:13:15 <zuff> I haven't got the command in the limechat startup
17:13:16 <zuff> xP
17:13:20 <AnMaster> zuff, it only evolves bad cars?
17:13:29 <zuff> AnMaster: no, it evolves good ones
17:13:33 <zuff> but it's frustrating :P
17:13:42 <AnMaster> zuff, agreed
17:13:57 <zuff> YES
17:13:59 <zuff> YES THAT'S IT
17:14:01 <zuff> COME ON CAR
17:14:03 <zuff> YOU CAN
17:14:04 <zuff> agh
17:14:15 <zuff> yesssssssssss
17:14:15 <AnMaster> it doesn't seem to learn at all
17:14:17 <zuff> agh
17:14:22 <zuff> AnMaster: define "learn"
17:14:28 <zuff> it produces random mutations then breeds the best ones every 20 iterations
17:14:40 <zuff> not exactly a fast process
17:14:42 <zuff> but it's improving
17:14:49 <AnMaster> zuff, the most successful wins, it seems to generate old ones again very often
17:15:00 <AnMaster> probably some parameters need to be tuned
17:15:03 <zuff> AnMaster: that'll just be because there aren't many really good ones
17:15:03 <AnMaster> btw
17:15:14 <AnMaster> what is the graph in the upper right part?
17:15:15 <zuff> remember that it doesn't breed each step
17:15:17 <zuff> you just get random 20
17:15:19 <zuff> then it breeds
17:15:21 <zuff> AnMaster: performance
17:15:31 <zuff> ideally, it'd be an upwards slope
17:15:37 <AnMaster> zuff, the green and black lines?
17:15:45 <zuff> i think the green = avg performance
17:15:47 <zuff> and black = best
17:15:50 <AnMaster> ah
17:16:01 <zuff> so the average performance is slightly improving, and the best performance kind of fluctuates wildly
17:16:05 <AnMaster> well what are the red circles? the blue are the wheels I understand that
17:16:14 <zuff> AnMaster: red circles make the car die when they hit the ground
17:16:20 <zuff> also, stopping the car makes it die
17:16:27 <zuff> blue circles are wheels, the rest is just connecting lines
17:16:30 <ais523> which game is this?
17:16:34 <zuff> ais523: not a game
17:16:35 <zuff> http://www.wreck.devisland.net/ga/
17:16:36 <zuff> it's in flash
17:16:42 <zuff> it's a car, evolving
17:16:43 <oklopol> AnMaster: all that would become clear if you'd just waited the minute it takes to evolve a car that somewhat works.
17:16:49 <AnMaster> grr, it seems to eat a lot of ram?
17:16:53 <zuff> oklopol: many minutes :P
17:16:57 <zuff> AnMaster: unsurprising
17:17:04 <AnMaster> zuff, OOM killer killed firefox
17:17:08 <AnMaster> oh well that was it
17:17:16 <zuff> the oom killer is batshit insane
17:17:20 <ais523> the OOM killer is likely sensible in that case
17:17:26 <AnMaster> zuff, the system has 256 MB RAM
17:17:27 <ais523> after all, firefox does use a lot of memory...
17:17:28 <zuff> ais523: fluke
17:17:29 <oklopol> would be fun to have a game where you competed with evolution in a task like that
17:17:35 <zuff> AnMaster: 256 MB? ummmmm duh
17:17:39 <zuff> oklopol: agreed
17:17:43 <AnMaster> zuff, yes that system that has firefox + flash
17:17:51 <zuff> although i'd kick evolution's ass, it's not an efficient procss
17:17:52 <AnMaster> ah wait sorry, it is 512
17:17:54 <AnMaster> not 256
17:17:57 <oklopol> you see terrain, then have a few minutes to build a vehicle to get to the goal, before your evolution opponent does it
17:18:07 <oklopol> and you could watch it go right next to you
17:18:11 <oklopol> i'd luv that
17:18:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, code it then?
17:18:24 <zuff> http://rogeralsing.com/2008/12/07/genetic-programming-evolution-of-mona-lisa/ evolving mona lisa dna
17:18:30 <ais523> I've used systems with 256 MB RAM, before
17:18:39 <ais523> haven't tried to run Firefox on them, though, nor would I if I were paying attention
17:18:42 <AnMaster> ais523, it was 512 anyway
17:18:44 <AnMaster> but sigh
17:19:49 <ais523> incidentally, I was reading through a flamewar between two Linux devs on a similar subject
17:19:56 <zuff> yes, it was on reddit
17:20:01 <ais523> which was whether to swap things out of memory and use the rest for disk space, or not
17:20:04 <zuff> as far as i know os x has no oom killer
17:20:06 <ais523> *disk cache
17:20:22 <ais523> I wonder if Windows has one, it's quite hard to tell
17:20:25 <zuff> i'm happy with my system crashing and burning if i try and use more memory than it has, i mean, that's reasonable
17:20:28 <zuff> just don't do that
17:20:54 <ais523> well, it's one echo to a proc file to turn off overcommit and therefore the OOM killer
17:21:01 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc I read that linux prefering disk cache over userspace data caused issues for youtube's database servers
17:21:04 <zuff> should be default :P
17:21:08 <AnMaster> preferring*
17:21:16 <zuff> i wonder how much hd space youtube has
17:21:18 <zuff> probably like 100 TB
17:21:22 <AnMaster> zuff, breaks lots of apps
17:21:22 <zuff> more
17:21:23 <zuff> actually
17:21:24 <AnMaster> like sbcl
17:21:31 <zuff> 1TB is cheap-ass
17:21:35 <zuff> I bet youtube have like a petabyte
17:21:57 <AnMaster> zuff, well these days iirc they use that google stuff since google bought them.
17:21:59 <AnMaster> but that was before
17:22:15 <zuff> ah, probably
17:22:28 <zuff> googlefs and bigtable and stuff, prolly
17:22:29 <AnMaster> in any case it was likely a bit less back then
17:22:40 <zuff> it's weird to think youtube started in 2005
17:22:42 <AnMaster> zuff, yes the same article said they were using that nowdays iirc
17:22:44 <zuff> it seems way more established
17:22:58 <zuff> also, I'm gonna genetically generate me some stuffs
17:23:10 <AnMaster> like?
17:23:15 <zuff> dunno.
17:23:23 <zuff> i'll start off by genetically generating hello world as a string :P
17:23:30 <zuff> not exactly hard
17:23:35 <AnMaster> genetically generated algorithms sounds interesting
17:23:36 <ais523> zuff: depends on the language
17:23:39 <AnMaster> but probably hard
17:23:42 <ais523> they tried that for Malbolge, and it took ages
17:23:45 <AnMaster> if you got nothing like it to start with
17:23:47 <zuff> AnMaster: not algorithms
17:23:50 <ais523> even then, the case was wrong when it finished
17:23:52 <zuff> http://rogeralsing.com/2008/12/07/genetic-programming-evolution-of-mona-lisa/ was just evolving polygons
17:24:01 <AnMaster> zuff, well, wouldn't it be possible for algorithms?
17:24:02 <zuff> ais523: that was generating a hello world program
17:24:11 <zuff> i'm just going to evolve strings to it :P
17:24:14 <ais523> oh
17:24:18 <zuff> also that was on 256MB windows nt machines
17:24:19 <zuff> and stuff
17:24:21 <zuff> as it was in 2000
17:24:24 <ais523> well, generating a hello world program in Text is pretty easy
17:24:28 <zuff> it'd probably only take a few hours today
17:24:34 <AnMaster> I remember reading about someone genetically generating a circuit to do some task
17:24:43 <AnMaster> iirc checking freqs of input signal
17:24:48 <AnMaster> and generating either on or off
17:24:49 <ais523> hmm... how many programming languages are self-double-quining?
17:24:51 <AnMaster> or something like that
17:25:01 <ais523> as in, if you feed a program's result to an interpreter, you always get the original program back?
17:25:14 <ais523> you could do that and still be TC, I think, although not BF-complete as you couldn't produce arbitrary output
17:25:18 <zuff> mutations: remove random char from string, add random char to random part of string
17:25:20 * zuff does it
17:25:45 <AnMaster> zuff, will probably work quite well, but what do you use to define "fitness"
17:25:54 <zuff> AnMaster: hamming distance?
17:26:02 <AnMaster> ah interesting
17:26:19 <zuff> well
17:26:21 <zuff> levenshtein
17:26:24 <zuff> for variable length
17:26:36 <AnMaster> you won't always generate the right length?
17:26:37 <oklopol> that mona lisa is not evolution
17:26:45 <zuff> AnMaster: nope
17:26:47 <oklopol> stochastic hill-climbing search
17:26:48 <AnMaster> ok
17:27:09 <ais523> oklopol: stochastic searches are no fun in the cases where hill-climbing actually works
17:27:24 <oklopol> ais523: what do you mean?
17:27:34 <ais523> oklopol: well, if there's more than one hill
17:27:38 <ais523> then you often end up at the wrong one
17:27:46 <ais523> you can do fun stuff like annealing to get around that problem
17:27:59 <oklopol> err sure, but i still don't understand your point
17:28:14 <oklopol> what do you mean they're no fun
17:28:23 <oklopol> oh
17:28:32 <oklopol> wait no oh, i'm still not sure :)
17:29:30 <zuff> hee hee this will be such fun
17:30:20 <AnMaster> how do you evolve algorithms? It sounds like an interesting idea
17:30:28 <AnMaster> not sure how viable it is
17:30:34 <ais523> AnMaster: tweak parameters for them at random
17:30:36 <zuff> AnMaster: just like you evolve anything else, but invent a DSL of some sort to represent just your domain
17:30:36 <zuff> I guess
17:30:40 <zuff> or what ais523 said :P
17:30:46 <AnMaster> hm
17:30:47 <ais523> although I agree, evolving the whole algorithm is more interesting than just evolving parameters in it
17:30:55 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed that was what I meant
17:31:19 <AnMaster> zuff, also what is "DSL" in this context, it is not a distro, nor a type of internet connection
17:31:28 <zuff> domain specific language
17:31:33 <AnMaster> ah right
17:31:41 * AnMaster dislikes acronym overloading
17:31:45 <oklopol> i find the whole idea of evolving algorithms stupid
17:31:56 <oklopol> you can't create an algorithm by slowly converging to it
17:32:16 <AnMaster> hm
17:32:22 <AnMaster> I guess so
17:32:36 <AnMaster> what ais523 said is just evolving fudge factors
17:32:54 <oklopol> creating an algorithm is about splitting the task into subtasks, "abstraction", that isn't really what evolution does.
17:33:03 <oklopol> in fact quite the opposite
17:33:51 <zuff> about to evolve hello world!
17:34:25 <oklopol> well. evolution gets closer than, say, simple mutation, because you can evolve parts of the algorithm separately; the problem is there's no way to do a sensible enough fitness function that would actually let that happen.
17:34:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, I remember reading about evolving a circuit...
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17:34:43 <oklopol> evolving what about it exactly?
17:35:01 <ais523> oh, there was a case where someone got a standard combinatorial logic chip
17:35:04 <oklopol> the logical structire?
17:35:07 <AnMaster> oklopol, iirc it was like this:
17:35:08 <ais523> no time-dependent hardware on it at all
17:35:11 <oklopol> *structure
17:35:19 <ais523> it had programmable connections between all the and and or gates in it
17:35:21 <AnMaster> 1) random start on a FPGA
17:35:25 <AnMaster> 2) change randomly
17:35:27 <AnMaster> fitness:
17:35:39 <ais523> and someone decided to evolve an algorithm to tell the difference between a 10 Hz signal and a 1 kHz signal
17:35:55 <ais523> despite this task being impossible in theory, they managed to evolve an algo that worked
17:35:58 <AnMaster> input was a tone, task output +1V if input is 50 Hz
17:36:08 <AnMaster> and +2V is it was 70 Hza
17:36:09 <AnMaster> Hz*
17:36:16 -!- Slereah- has joined.
17:36:19 <AnMaster> don't remember more details than that
17:36:22 <AnMaster> iirc it worked
17:36:22 <ais523> but nobody could figure out how it worked, there were something like 4 components that didn't connect to anything but the circuit stopped working anyway if they were removed
17:36:34 <oklopol> ais523: okay that's effing freky
17:36:34 <AnMaster> I *think* I read about it in some popular science book
17:36:36 <oklopol> *freaky
17:36:43 <oklopol> but i can imagine something like that working
17:36:53 <oklopol> it's a continuous problem
17:37:03 <oklopol> you can very clearly see how much wrong it goes
17:37:10 <ais523> yes, clearly it exploited things about the gates which worked in practice but not in theory
17:37:27 <oklopol> yes. that's very impressive, but doesn't really attack my argument
17:37:51 <zuff> It's up to 'Hlwo'.
17:37:57 <zuff> And iterations have slowed to a crawl.
17:38:00 <zuff> 'Hl wo', now.
17:38:01 <zuff> Iteration 4.
17:38:06 <AnMaster> ais523, ah the same one as I said
17:38:08 <AnMaster> right
17:38:15 <AnMaster> you remembered more detais
17:38:18 <AnMaster> details*
17:38:19 <zuff> I think I may have some optimization to do lest I afll asleep.
17:38:26 <zuff> Or maybe I should iterate, say, 10 times instead of 100.
17:38:38 <zuff> Or maybe just get a faster levenshtein
17:38:40 <AnMaster> ais523, also iirc those other 4 components worked due to induction
17:38:41 <zuff> It's slooooooow
17:38:43 <AnMaster> iirc
17:38:44 <oklopol> also a hello world might work. but that's only because ehird did the abstraction part by telling it "h" is a subtask of "hello world"
17:38:56 <oklopol> i'm assuming that's the fitness
17:39:00 <zuff> ais523:
17:39:02 <zuff> I just linked to that article
17:39:03 <zuff> :S
17:39:05 <zuff> Up abov
17:39:05 <zuff> e
17:39:18 <zuff> oklopol: fitness is just levenshtein
17:39:36 <ais523> zuff: you linked to a mona lisa article twice, afaict
17:39:42 <zuff> ais523: oh
17:40:01 <oklopol> zuff: yes. doesn't change the fact you told it levenshtein is good. my point is in algorithms, the only problem is the abstraction, and evolution doesn't attack that.
17:40:09 <zuff> agreed
17:40:20 <oklopol> with me or ais523
17:40:23 <zuff> http://www.cs.nyu.edu/courses/fall08/G22.2965-001/geneticalgex
17:40:27 <zuff> with oklopol
17:40:31 <oklopol> k
17:40:38 <oklopol> let's read
17:40:49 <zuff> hmm i'm just going to tell it to avoid non-printables
17:40:53 <zuff> it's not even interesting to watch it fuck with them
17:41:04 <zuff> avoid = don't use at all
17:46:33 <zuff> He,r!
17:46:36 <zuff> dist 8
17:46:38 <zuff> iter 4
17:46:52 <oklopol> what's your algo
17:46:56 <oklopol> is it actually evolution
17:47:26 <zuff> oklopol: get current, 100 random mutations, pick the one with the least levenshtein distance to the target, make that the current one
17:47:28 <zuff> repeat until equal
17:47:31 <zuff> so, yes, evolution
17:47:44 <zuff> mutation = delete random char, or, insert random printable ascii char at random point
17:47:48 <zuff> starts off with null string
17:49:57 <zuff> god this levenshtein is so sloooooow
17:50:02 <zuff> neeed optimized c version
17:50:11 <zuff> hey AnMaster, write a micro-optimized levenshtein distance function in c
17:50:12 <zuff> :P
17:50:17 <AnMaster> back
17:50:22 <AnMaster> zuff, no thanks.
17:50:59 <zuff> "Heul,r!"
17:51:00 <zuff> iter 6
17:52:24 <AnMaster> zuff, how slow is it?
17:52:31 <zuff> really fast up to about iter 4-5
17:52:38 <AnMaster> zuff, how comes?
17:52:38 <zuff> at which point it takes up to a minute per iteration
17:52:42 <zuff> and gets wildly slower each time
17:52:44 <AnMaster> strange
17:52:49 <zuff> AnMaster: levenshtein is a really slow algo, i think
17:52:52 <AnMaster> oh I guess it finds no better one?
17:52:55 <zuff> no
17:52:55 <AnMaster> zuff, or?
17:52:57 <zuff> just levenshtein
17:52:59 <zuff> runs really slowly
17:53:06 <zuff> really really really, because it's a naive recursive python impl
17:53:10 <AnMaster> for such a short string?
17:53:13 <zuff> yep
17:53:15 <AnMaster> wow
17:53:16 <zuff> thus why I need to hook into a microoptimized C version
17:54:01 <AnMaster> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Algorithm_implementation/Strings/Levenshtein_distance
17:54:03 <AnMaster> checked that?
17:54:08 <zuff> yes
17:54:13 <zuff> i'm using the python version from it
17:54:17 <AnMaster> ah
17:54:18 <AnMaster> hm
17:54:20 <zuff> but the emphasis is on the algorithm there
17:54:22 <zuff> not the implementation
17:54:36 <zuff> i.e. they're all naive and slooooow
17:54:40 <AnMaster> try google?
17:54:43 <oklopol> zuff: that's not evolution.
17:54:54 <oklopol> that's stochastic hill climbing
17:55:02 <zuff> oklopol: how is it not "evolution"?
17:55:10 <zuff> it's evolving a string and picking the best one
17:55:22 <oklopol> well.
17:55:32 <oklopol> okay yeah i guess "evolution" doesn't mean anything
17:55:35 <oklopol> but it's not a genetic algorithm
17:55:46 <zuff> i know
17:55:46 <zuff> :P
17:55:51 * zuff makes a simpler version
17:55:55 <zuff> "do one mutation, if it's better, use it"
17:56:17 <oklopol> well. guess it could be called "genetic", if you call asexual ones that... but that's really abusing terminology imo
17:56:34 <AnMaster> zuff, what about actually generating the same length every time? And using hamming distance
17:56:42 <AnMaster> should be faster
17:56:46 <zuff> AnMaster: that would be cheating
17:57:03 <AnMaster> true, but levenshtein looks quite complex
17:57:09 <AnMaster> to implement
17:57:21 <zuff> if not a: return len(b)
17:57:21 <zuff> if not b: return len(a)
17:57:23 <zuff> return min( int(a[0] != b[0]) + levenshtein(a[1:], b[1:]), 1 + levenshtein(a[1:], b), 1 + levenshtein(a, b[1:])
17:57:26 <zuff> )
17:57:28 <zuff> that's not hard
17:57:30 <zuff> admittedly it's dogslow
17:57:34 <AnMaster> zuff, in any case google to see if there is a better implementation?
17:57:46 <zuff> i did, the python extension was a 404
18:00:23 <zuff> So, when is a GA "real"? Hill climbing is a (1+1) selection strategy in GA speak. Even random search can be considered a GA, called (1,1) in GA speak.
18:00:23 <zuff> GAs are more about the genomes and the mutations than about N > 1 populations.
18:00:26 <zuff> oklopol:
18:00:29 <zuff> people who use big words think i'm right
18:04:49 <MizardX> You need to either use dynamic programming, or caching to calculate the levenstein distance. Otherwise you end up with an exponential time complexity.
18:05:17 <zuff> http://www.reddit.com/r/hurts_my_eyes/ AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH
18:05:28 <zuff> MizardX: how would caching help?
18:05:58 <MizardX> It eliminates common sub-nodes
18:06:08 <zuff> MizardX: i mean, what would i cache?
18:06:13 -!- ineiros has quit ("leaving").
18:06:29 <MizardX> (a,b) -> resulting distance
18:06:45 -!- ineiros has joined.
18:07:15 <zuff> MizardX: well i guess, i doubt there's that much repetition?
18:09:38 <MizardX> (a,b) -> { (a[1:], b) -> { (a[2:],b), (a[2:],b[1:]), (a[1:],b[1:]) }, (a[1:],b[1:]) -> { (a[2:],b[1:]), (a[2:],b[2:]), (a[1:],b[2:]) }, (a,b[1:]) -> {(a[1:],b[1:]), (a[1:],b[2:]), (a, b[2:])} }
18:10:46 <zuff> ah true
18:11:00 <zuff> MizardX: the problem is that lists aren't hashable, so I'm thinkin' there'll be some overhead :P
18:11:35 <MizardX> tuple(L) ?
18:11:41 <zuff> shush commie
18:12:07 <zuff> MizardX: btw, b is always hello world
18:12:12 <zuff> I'm sure I can optimize for that
18:12:12 <zuff> :P
18:12:26 <MizardX> substrings of "hello world"
18:12:29 <zuff> well, true
18:12:47 <zuff> ok, let's try this
18:12:48 <MizardX> You could store it as an integer
18:13:06 <zuff> IndexError: list index out of range
18:13:09 <ais523> zuff: what do you mean, lists aren't hashable
18:13:09 <zuff> wat O.O
18:13:17 <zuff> ais523: python.
18:13:18 <MizardX> hash(L) -> exception
18:13:21 <zuff> since they're mutable.
18:13:28 <ais523> zuff: that's just a failing of the language
18:13:38 <zuff> we all know you hate python ais523
18:13:40 <ais523> you can hash it yourself, instead
18:13:55 <ais523> I mean, just because something isn't easy in a particular language doesn't mean it isn't possible...
18:13:59 <zuff> but i happen to be more interested than coding this than hearing about how python is awful because of the WHITESPACE
18:14:08 <zuff> and i know i can
18:14:10 <zuff> i'm talking about speed here
18:14:17 <zuff> since, you know, i'm optimizing
18:17:39 <zuff> my god
18:17:42 <zuff> http://www.reddit.com/r/hurts_my_eyes/ has broken my eyes
18:17:55 <ais523> zuff: well, why did you visit a site with a name like that?
18:18:05 <zuff> it was linked to on reddit :P
18:18:12 <zuff> it's awful, and i love it
18:18:15 <zuff> and it's awful and aaaaaaargh my eyes
18:18:29 <ais523> what's wrong with it?
18:18:40 <zuff> ais523: turn on css.
18:18:40 <zuff> :P
18:19:00 <zuff> and images
18:19:04 <zuff> then kill yourself
18:19:09 <zuff> for maximum ouch, use a mouse
18:19:57 * zuff blinks and nothing changes
18:20:05 <zuff> it has invaded my skull oh god
18:20:07 <ais523> zuff: I haven't actually visited it
18:20:13 <ais523> with disclaimers like that, I'd be insane
18:20:29 <zuff> ais523: it should be okay if you're not epileptic and have eyse made of steel
18:20:30 <zuff> *eyes
18:20:59 <MizardX> zuff: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p613543526.txt
18:21:34 <zuff> MizardX: nice
18:21:41 <zuff> whoa
18:21:42 <zuff> with a cache
18:21:45 <zuff> it is so good
18:21:52 <zuff> admittedly, it got really good then effed it up
18:21:57 <zuff> but it's hovering 6-7
18:21:58 <zuff> 5
18:22:30 <zuff> MizardX: gonna install yers
18:22:43 <zuff> i expect fireworks
18:23:48 <MizardX> hmm... maybe should replace the "return na - x" and "return nb - y" with "ret = na - x" and "ret = nb - y"
18:23:55 <zuff> yes
18:24:37 <zuff> less try thissss
18:25:22 <zuff> MizardX: yours is broken-ass
18:25:27 <zuff> it selects the null string every time
18:25:53 <MizardX> >>> levenshtein("","hello world")
18:25:53 <MizardX> 11
18:26:05 <zuff> yes, and?
18:26:11 <zuff> hmmmm
18:26:27 <zuff> ohh
18:26:33 <zuff> hmm
18:26:34 <zuff> no
18:26:47 <zuff> MizardX: ok, yours fails for lists
18:26:50 <zuff> does it only work on strings?
18:27:05 <zuff> I use ['a','b','c'] for easy mutation
18:27:12 <zuff> wait
18:27:13 <MizardX> >>> levenshtein([1,2,3],[2,3])
18:27:13 <MizardX> 1
18:27:16 <zuff> i don't have to, neat
18:27:18 <ais523> but "abc" is ['a','b','c']
18:27:27 <ais523> at least in Prolog, that catches me out a lot
18:27:31 <ais523> different sorts of quotes FTW
18:27:32 <zuff> not in python.
18:27:33 <ais523> wait, no
18:27:41 <ais523> "abc" is [97,98,99].
18:28:02 <MizardX> strings are lists of one-length strings
18:28:10 <zuff> umm
18:28:12 <zuff> MizardX: not in python
18:28:20 <zuff> that's how they behave
18:28:22 <zuff> but that's just not true
18:29:16 <AnMaster> <ais523> "abc" is [97,98,99].
18:29:20 <AnMaster> same as in erlang heh
18:29:25 <ais523> I didn't know that
18:29:32 <zuff> MizardX: yours definitely behaves differently
18:29:35 <ais523> 'abc' or just abc is the string
18:29:43 <ais523> presumably that's the same in Erlang too?
18:29:44 <zuff> MizardX: levenshtein is an operation on more than just lengths you know
18:29:45 <AnMaster> ais523, ah that doesn't eixist
18:29:50 <AnMaster> ais523, 'abc' is an atom
18:29:52 <AnMaster> as is abc
18:29:54 <AnMaster> but:
18:29:56 <ais523> AnMaster: atom = string in Prolog
18:30:02 <AnMaster> Abc is a variable but 'Abc' is an atom
18:30:07 <ais523> yep, same
18:30:13 <AnMaster> ais523, atom != string in erlang
18:30:20 <ais523> barewords are atoms if they start lowercase or variables if they start uppercase
18:30:24 <ais523> single quotes can atomise anything
18:30:27 <zuff> MizardX: i'm putting the cache out of the function ofc
18:30:30 <zuff> to cache future calls
18:30:31 <AnMaster> string is a list that happens to contain numbers that are printable
18:30:37 <zuff> surely that's sane?
18:30:42 <ais523> also, most punctuation marks and punctuation mark combinations are atoms
18:30:57 <AnMaster> ais523, not so in erlang iirc
18:31:17 <ais523> gprolog's nice enough to give compiler warnings about accidentally redefining things like - or / for that reason
18:31:21 <ais523> although not fail, apparently
18:31:37 <ais523> it's so easy to write a :- stuff. fail. rather than a :- stuff, fail.
18:31:40 <AnMaster> ais523, examples of such punct mark strings?
18:31:44 <ais523> and the first redefines fail to be true
18:31:51 <ais523> AnMaster: you can write, say, 4/6.
18:31:58 <ais523> that's equivalent to '/'(4,6).
18:32:02 <ais523> and defines a predicate called /
18:32:08 <AnMaster> 1> is_atom(/).
18:32:08 <AnMaster> * 1: syntax error before: '/'
18:32:18 <zuff> duh
18:32:20 <AnMaster> 2> is_atom('/').
18:32:20 <AnMaster> true
18:32:23 <ais523> the only punctuation mark that has to be quoted to use it as an atom is ,
18:32:24 <zuff> no shit
18:32:35 <AnMaster> ais523, so I guess it isn't an atom when free standing in erlang
18:32:54 <ais523> and tbh, I'm not entirely sure why gprolog needs comma to be quoted
18:33:11 <zuff> MizardX?
18:33:22 <AnMaster> ais523, well I tried some punctuation, none of them are atoms
18:33:32 <AnMaster> in fact if I don't quite the atom . isn't even valid inside
18:33:51 <AnMaster> hm wtf
18:33:56 <AnMaster> that varies between versions
18:34:05 <AnMaster> in the last one it seems to be valid but undocumented
18:34:10 <AnMaster> oh well
18:34:20 <MizardX> zuff: The cache is only relevant for the exact same strings, so storing it for future calls isn't going to help.
18:34:37 <ais523> AnMaster: . is handled specially by Prolog, due to being used as part of syntactic sugar
18:34:40 <zuff> MizardX: Are you sure? The same substrings will be found in later calls.
18:34:46 <zuff> So they should be cached.
18:34:53 <ais523> .(a,.(b,c)) = [a,b,c]
18:34:59 <zuff> MizardX: Since the mutations only change one char.
18:35:02 <ais523> and . followed by whitespace is an entirely different punctuation mark
18:35:04 <AnMaster> ais523, well the docs says . isn't valid in an unquoted atom
18:35:06 <zuff> So caching them would be _very_ productive.
18:35:13 <AnMaster> in fact the only valid non-alphanumeric is _
18:35:19 <AnMaster> as far as I can tell
18:35:28 <AnMaster> however it appears . is valid in the middle in some cases
18:35:30 <ais523> AnMaster: heh, that's a variable not an atom in Prolog, and in Erlang too presumably
18:35:45 <AnMaster> ais523, ? well not starting _
18:35:48 <AnMaster> I meant in the middle
18:35:57 <AnMaster> 6> is_atom(a_b).
18:35:57 <AnMaster> true
18:36:08 <MizardX> zuff: Then you would need to use strings as keys, which would slow down the process. The cache would also get very large.
18:36:31 <AnMaster> ais523, "<ais523> also, most punctuation marks and punctuation mark combinations are atoms"
18:36:35 <AnMaster> I was just checking that
18:36:37 <AnMaster> in erlang
18:36:39 <zuff> MizardX: The slowdown - would it be slower than your version? I think not. Also, large is okay.
18:36:40 <zuff> Hm, wait.
18:36:44 <AnMaster> no such are atoms when freestanding
18:36:50 <zuff> My strings do one of two things to the current mutation:
18:36:52 <zuff> Add a char, or remove a char.
18:36:59 <zuff> I don't have to calculate the full levenshtein each time, do i?
18:37:14 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway one thing I really dislike with erlang is the very very bad utf8 support. it seems to use latin1
18:37:17 <zuff> I mean, I know the levenshtein of the previous mutation.
18:37:25 <zuff> So surely I can calculate it for my trivial mutations?
18:37:58 <ais523> AnMaster: no idea what gprolog does with UTF-8 input, my guess would be store the individual bytes of the input raw
18:38:34 <AnMaster> ais523, same for erlang sadly, and then refuse to believe that list happens to be a string
18:39:22 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you write a char in prolog?
18:39:25 <AnMaster> like '\a'
18:39:27 <AnMaster> in C
18:39:28 <ais523> there is no char type
18:39:41 <ais523> normally you use either a one-element string '\a'
18:39:44 <ais523> or a number 1
18:39:47 <AnMaster> hm
18:39:48 <ais523> well, not 1, 7
18:39:51 <ais523> for a \a
18:39:52 <AnMaster> > [$a|"bc"].
18:39:52 <AnMaster> "abc"
18:40:06 <AnMaster> $\a doesn't work however *tries to figure out why*
18:40:16 <AnMaster> $\n works for newline
18:40:19 <AnMaster> and $\t for tab
18:41:16 <zuff> Hmm.
18:41:22 <AnMaster> $\7 works
18:41:31 <AnMaster> but then erlang decides it isn't a string
18:41:40 <AnMaster> due to non printable
18:41:51 <zuff> MizardX: Do you agree?
18:42:13 <AnMaster> zuff, what if that cause a length change?
18:42:19 <zuff> AnMaster: Of course it does
18:42:24 <MizardX> zuff: Maybe. I'm trying to test it.
18:42:28 <zuff> It either increases length by one or decreases by one.
18:42:42 <AnMaster> zuff, not just replaces existing char sometimes?
18:42:53 <zuff> No.
18:42:57 <AnMaster> ah right
18:43:02 <AnMaster> then I misunderstood you
18:43:03 <zuff> Replacing an existing character happens if a generation removes a char, then another one adds one.
18:43:09 <zuff> It's simpler this way.
18:44:58 <zuff> Hmm.
18:45:02 * zuff considers mechanical turk evolution.
18:45:07 <zuff> that is, to evolve subjective things.
18:45:33 <zuff> Just present the turkers with "Which of these (looks better/travels faster/etc)?"
18:45:38 <AnMaster> mechanical turk? hm wasn't that some old automaton or something?
18:45:42 <AnMaster> don't remember details
18:45:51 <zuff> AnMaster: That's where the name comes from.
18:45:54 <zuff> It's an Amazon service.
18:46:01 <zuff> Basically, menial labor, over the internet. :P
18:46:34 <zuff> The "turkers" (people who are bored and want a little cash) get to choose a task set by whoever, and then fill it in (e.g. "which of these results is most relevant for the term X" or whatever)
18:46:42 <zuff> and get moolah from the person/corp setting the task.
18:46:50 <zuff> (if the response is accepted)
18:47:10 <zuff> it's got a big turker and task-setter userbase so it's been used a lot recently.
18:47:18 <AnMaster> hm
18:47:21 <AnMaster> ok
18:47:30 <AnMaster> I fail to see why the name is relevant?
18:47:38 <zuff> AnMaster: the mechanical turk was a hoax:
18:47:43 <zuff> it was presented as a chess-playing automaton
18:47:45 <zuff> but someone was inside it
18:47:47 <AnMaster> ah ok, didn't remember that
18:48:03 <AnMaster> well, the website is a hoax? you don't get your money?
18:48:06 <zuff> no.
18:48:13 <zuff> but it lets you do subjective computing
18:48:17 <zuff> as if it was just regular computing
18:48:19 <AnMaster> hm... ok
18:48:26 <zuff> i.e. it acts just like regular computation, but there's people behind it
18:48:37 <zuff> https://www.mturk.com:443/
18:50:09 <zuff> AnMaster: Some examples of the tasks submitted: https://www.mturk.com/mturk/findhits?match=false
18:50:21 <zuff> Reward, there, being how much the turkers get for completing one unit of it.
18:51:11 * zuff considers submitting something like "Enter a random number" and doing statistical analysis on it.
18:51:53 <AnMaster> the first result seems recursive or something?
18:52:14 <zuff> AnMaster: What?
18:52:26 <AnMaster> Answer a SIMPLE (fact or opinion) based question - quick and easy!
18:52:27 <AnMaster> well
18:52:33 <AnMaster> what question?
18:52:33 <zuff> What about it?
18:52:35 <AnMaster> it doesn't say?
18:52:37 <zuff> AnMaster: It depends.
18:52:42 <AnMaster> oh
18:52:44 <AnMaster> they are groups
18:52:49 <AnMaster> not specific questions?
18:52:51 <zuff> AnMaster: Programmatically generated, yeah.
18:53:08 <zuff> Probably it's something like a website or something where you can enter a question and get an answer from them.
18:53:11 <zuff> That sort of thing. maybe. I dunno.
18:53:16 <AnMaster> hm
18:53:35 <zuff> If you're bored, 2c to answer random questions isn't bad.
19:08:27 <AnMaster> true
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19:10:52 <keymakertmp> if the paintfuck craze isn't over yet, here's a self-interpreter: http://yiap.nfshost.com/programs/paintfuck/pfipf.pf
19:10:57 <keymakertmp> it can be interesting to watch
19:10:59 <keymakertmp> for someone
19:11:30 <keymakertmp> it shows the program it's emulating in 2d grid, just as normal paintfuck interpreters do
19:13:03 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:13:18 <zuff> keymakertmp: It's died down but I still like it.
19:13:18 <oerjan> go kveill
19:13:21 <zuff> Also, wowzers.
19:13:28 <keymakertmp> what do you mean?
19:13:43 <zuff> keymakertmp: there isn't that much PF buzz any more but I still like pf
19:13:48 <keymakertmp> aah
19:13:56 <zuff> btw, what program is it interpreting
19:14:20 <keymakertmp> *[[n*e*]n[*]*]
19:14:40 <zuff> ah
19:14:54 <keymakertmp> but it can interpret anything
19:14:57 <keymakertmp> just change the input
19:14:59 <zuff> keymakertmp: does it wrap?
19:15:17 <keymakertmp> the grid does, yes. i decided to make it so because all the other interpreters seemed to work that way
19:15:26 <keymakertmp> the grid size can be changed to
19:15:30 <keymakertmp> instructions in esowiki
19:15:46 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:15:48 <zuff> :)
19:19:27 <keymakertmp> well, i'll get going. if the guy who made the language is around someone let him know about this, hah. when running, remember to have enough grid size in the actual interpreter you're using. i've used pedro gimeno's interpreter which i recommend
19:19:44 -!- keymakertmp has quit.
19:19:47 <oerjan> hm would it be possible to do something like befunge does, so it wraps but nevertheless has an infinite grid? it seems a bit harder since you must predict if it will do an infinite number of moves
19:20:00 <oerjan> (for paintfuck)
19:26:46 <lament> painfuck?
19:30:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, you mean predict if it will paint forever (then wrap) or just paint a large number and halt?
19:30:17 <AnMaster> for a TC program?
19:30:26 <AnMaster> sounds impossible in the general case to me
19:32:39 <zuff> Thought: I would like JavaScript a lot more if "function" was something shorter, like "fun".
19:32:49 <zuff> return foo.filter(function (a) { a == b });
19:32:50 <zuff> vs
19:32:55 <zuff> return foo.filter(fun (a) { a == b });
19:33:29 <AnMaster> zuff, you obviously want erlang then, it uses "fun" for lambdas :P
19:33:32 <zuff> Well, you need a return in there too:
19:33:36 <zuff> return foo.filter(function (a) { return a == b });
19:33:37 <zuff> vs
19:33:40 <zuff> return foo.filter(fun (a) { a == b });
19:35:02 <MizardX> zuff: Python quickly runs out of memory (800mb+) when using the global cache with a long string. It starts trying to reclaim space and each generation gets really slow. By throwing away the cache after each check it stays at 10-20mb memory usage.
19:35:04 <AnMaster> lists:filter(fun(a) -> a =:= b end., foo)
19:35:09 <AnMaster> something like that
19:35:21 <AnMaster> actually drop that . iirc
19:35:26 <zuff> posts: function () {
19:35:26 <zuff> return Post.select(function (p) { return p.author == this });
19:35:27 <zuff> }
19:35:31 <zuff> To be honest, that isn't all that bad.
19:36:44 <AnMaster> oh and foo needs to be Foo
19:36:59 <AnMaster> and you need a list Foo and so on
19:37:47 <AnMaster> Foo = [a,b,c,b,c], B = c, lists:filter(fun(A) -> A =:= B end, Foo).
19:37:48 <AnMaster> that works
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19:48:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think i meant only if it moves forever without painting anything permanent. if it paints an infinite amount permanently then it wouldn't be able to fill the memory in finite time anyway.
19:49:20 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:49:21 <oerjan> so sort of like a glider, which should be detectable, i think
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19:49:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, is that decidable in the general case without running and seeing what happens?
19:50:00 <oerjan> no
19:50:17 <oerjan> but if you run, you should be able to detect repetitions after a while
19:50:28 <AnMaster> hm true
19:50:38 <oerjan> the memory would divide into two blocks, one static and one which moves
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19:50:59 <oerjan> i am also assuming the moving one doesn't grow, i guess
19:52:32 <oerjan> there are CA implementations that handle memory like that
19:53:15 <AnMaster> hashlife?
19:53:36 <oerjan> perhaps, i recall xlife did
19:54:26 <AnMaster> hm ok
19:56:14 <oerjan> yeah hashlife looks like that too
19:58:26 <AnMaster> well xlife probably uses hashlife
20:00:09 <oerjan> don't know, but it definitely divided memory into regions
20:11:17 -!- olsner has joined.
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20:24:57 <oerjan> <ais523> hmm... how many programming languages are self-double-quining?
20:25:50 <oerjan> you could have a reversible self-modifying language that spit out the final program state at the end...
20:25:52 <MizardX> zuff: They are discussing different syntaxes for lambda-functions for ECMAScript 4.
20:26:08 <oerjan> except with directions reversed
20:26:34 <ais523> oerjan: clever
20:27:36 <oerjan> for joke languages, i think rot13 counts :D
20:27:36 <zuff> MizardX: ECMAScript 4 is officially dead, and most of its other changes were awful.
20:29:31 <zuff> rot13 quine:
20:29:45 <zuff> hmm, no
20:29:47 <zuff> I was thinking m
20:30:02 <oerjan> zuff: anything without alphabetic characters
20:30:14 <zuff> well yeah
20:30:15 <zuff> :P
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21:08:01 <LinuS> http://www.lemonparty.org/
21:09:59 <zuff> LinuS: Fuck off.
21:10:10 <ais523> what's going on here, and why?
21:10:15 <zuff> ais523: lemonparty is a shock site.
21:10:19 <ais523> yes, I know
21:10:24 <LinuS> comeon, it's a joke
21:10:25 <ais523> but why has LinuS posted it for no apparent reason?
21:10:32 <zuff> ais523: to shock people?
21:10:32 * oerjan didn't.
21:10:39 <ais523> oerjan: did you visit it by mistake?
21:10:42 <zuff> LinuS: It's not funny.
21:10:44 <zuff> Go away.
21:10:52 <LinuS> you don't think it is
21:10:54 <oerjan> i don't think it counts as a mistake
21:10:59 <LinuS> that doesn't mean it isn't
21:11:09 <zuff> LinuS: Gee, overall consensus seems to be that it isn't.
21:11:21 <ais523> maybe the UK should block it rather than Wikipedia
21:11:25 <zuff> I doubt anyone else here would find it funny.
21:11:41 <oerjan> ais523: the UK blocks Wikipedia?
21:11:55 <ais523> oerjan: just one page on it
21:11:56 <LinuS> well i don't see people finding it that disturbing too
21:12:08 <zuff> LinuS: Because we're not idiotic enough to click it.
21:12:08 <ais523> but 6 of the major ISPs are routing all traffic there via a proxy server
21:12:11 <zuff> If you _must_ have a smug sense of superiority into tricking people into clicking something they don't want, stick to rick astley or something.
21:12:18 <zuff> ais523: What is the page, by the way?
21:12:35 <oerjan> the weird thing is i _thought_ "maybe this is a rickroll"
21:12:46 <LinuS> lol
21:12:50 <ais523> zuff: it's linked all over the internet by now, just check any of the major tech news sites
21:12:53 <zuff> oerjan: Rick astley video, old men orgy.
21:12:55 <zuff> What's the difference?
21:13:06 <LinuS> i'll tell you a story
21:13:08 <zuff> Oh, that album cover.
21:13:11 <ais523> yep
21:13:20 <zuff> Wonder if I'll get logged if I click.
21:13:26 <zuff> Eh, who cares!
21:13:29 <oerjan> only that the rick astley video probably wouldn't have made me want to hit LinuS with a _real_ saucepan
21:13:34 <ais523> the trouble is, ofc, that we have a Qatar problem now, that blocking just 6 people in the UK causes all Brits to be unable to edit Wikipedia
21:13:42 <zuff> Object not found
21:13:44 <zuff> Inspiring.
21:13:51 <ais523> zuff: it's strange really
21:14:01 <ais523> apparently, one of the ISPs puts a 404 message in the HTML, but a 403 in the header
21:14:02 <zuff> Fucking UK government. /sigh
21:14:28 <ais523> there are a huge number of ways around the filter, by the way
21:14:34 <zuff> Yeah, like Tor.
21:14:36 <ais523> just think of anything that sounds remotely plausible to work, and it does
21:14:40 <ais523> you can go a lot simpler than Tor
21:14:51 <zuff> ais523: Simple proxy? :P
21:14:58 <ais523> simpler still
21:15:01 <zuff> But it's the general sentiment of censorship that pisses me off.
21:15:03 <Slereah-> I know something way simpler than Tor.
21:15:09 <Slereah-> Just go to another computer.
21:15:14 <Slereah-> It's foolproof.
21:15:18 <zuff> Slereah-: Errr.
21:15:19 <Slereah-> No ban can follow you.
21:15:22 <ais523> Slereah-: that would require not being on a major UK ISP
21:15:23 <zuff> That only works if you're right next to a UK border.
21:15:37 <zuff> Or, say, you can swim across to france really, really fast.
21:15:40 <Slereah-> Are we talking about a countrywide ban?
21:15:45 <zuff> Yes.
21:15:49 <Slereah-> Yeah, that's pretty hard to beat.
21:15:53 <ais523> no, it isn't
21:15:55 <zuff> Nationwide censorship.
21:16:06 <ais523> it would be if it had been done at all competently
21:16:11 <Slereah-> Well, not if you're a nerd!
21:16:24 <Slereah-> I just use foxyproxy for my trolling needs.
21:17:17 <ais523> http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/12/07/1253228 has lots of simple workarounds, but people have found one even simpler
21:17:48 -!- james has joined.
21:17:56 <zuff> Hi james.
21:18:00 <ais523> hi
21:18:00 <james> howdy
21:18:06 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:18:52 <zuff> james: what brings you here?
21:19:16 <james> Just passing through. :)
21:19:28 <zuff> :)
21:19:46 <Slereah-> JUST ON MY WAY TO PAGE 10
21:22:11 -!- thutubot has joined.
21:22:21 <ais523> +ul (:aSS):aSS
21:22:22 <thutubot> (:aSS):aSS
21:22:38 <ais523> +ul (aS(:^)S):^
21:22:38 <thutubot> (aS(:^)S):^
21:22:40 <zuff> i see we have a lot of unsavory content today!
21:22:41 <zuff> hur hur ur
21:22:43 <ais523> yay, good to have you back thutubot
21:22:45 <zuff> *hur.
21:22:55 <zuff> hey ais523, wanna start optbot while you're at it? :P
21:22:59 <ais523> zuff: don't know how
21:23:19 <zuff> $ cd ~ehird/optbot; ruby optbot.rb &
21:23:20 <zuff> $ disown
21:23:25 <ais523> disown?
21:23:42 <zuff> disown detaches a background job from the shell
21:23:44 <pikhq> Shell is no longer responsible for the job.
21:23:48 <ais523> ah, I use nohup
21:23:50 <zuff> so that it continues running even when you logout
21:23:56 <pikhq> As do I.
21:24:02 <zuff> feel free to :P
21:24:08 <zuff> probably the best idea
21:24:11 <zuff> I didn't know about nohup
21:24:27 <ais523> ^bf >,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<[<]>[.<]!>,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<[<]>[.<]
21:24:27 <fungot> >,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<[<]>[.<]!>
21:24:36 <ais523> ^bf >,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<[<]>[.>]!>,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<[<]>[.>]
21:24:37 <fungot> >,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<[<]>[.>]!>,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<[<]>[.>]!
21:24:51 <ais523> ^bf >,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<[<]>[.>]!>,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<[<]>[.>]
21:24:52 <fungot> >,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<[<]>[.>]!>,[.>,]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<[<]>[.>]
21:24:55 <ais523> third time lucky
21:25:04 <ais523> hmm... is that cheating?
21:25:14 <zuff> yes.
21:25:24 <zuff> trivial dbfi quine:
21:25:29 <ais523> well, it's a quine in /something/
21:25:32 <ais523> if not BF itself
21:25:32 <zuff> (read)(print)(print !)(print)!(read)(print)(print !)(print)
21:26:01 <ais523> hmm... you could get an Easy quine along these lines, probably
21:27:37 <ais523> >+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<]>+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<]
21:27:41 <ais523> that works, I think
21:27:45 <ais523> now we nead an Easy interp to test it on
21:27:53 <zuff> ais523: that's not an easy program
21:28:02 <ais523> zuff: Easy the lang
21:28:03 <zuff> that's some input to every easy program
21:28:14 <ais523> oh, I consider the sample input to /be/ the program
21:28:23 <zuff> that defeats the point
21:28:32 <zuff> for your example, easy = bf
21:28:37 <zuff> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Easy
21:28:42 <zuff> !bf >+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<]>+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<]
21:28:47 <zuff> !bf >+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<]>+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<]!a
21:28:53 <zuff> !bf >+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<]>+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<]! >+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<]>+[>,[.>,]<[<]>[.>]>-<]
21:28:54 <ais523> zuff, doesn't work
21:28:58 <ais523> my example isn't bf = easy
21:29:02 <ais523> because it takes input from the program itself
21:29:09 <zuff> ah.
21:29:11 <ais523> set up so the first half is the program, the second half is input
21:29:23 <ais523> doesn't jayCampbell have an Easy interp?
21:29:31 <zuff> prolly
21:31:02 <ais523> <MizardX> +[->.[,>.]<[<]>[,>]]+[->.[,>.]<[<]>[,>]]
21:31:07 <ais523> also, Easy's still listed as unimplemented
21:31:18 <ais523> but it seems MizardX wrote almost exactly the same quine as me
21:31:25 <ais523> just simpler, because I forgot that the input wasn't itself executed
21:33:19 <oklopol> lol i forgot the car thing running
21:33:28 <oklopol> the cars now get half a screen further \o/
21:34:00 <zuff> lo
21:34:01 <zuff> l
21:37:48 <oklopol> but they've started dying in the beginning.
21:38:02 <oklopol> which isn't a surprise, but it's still funny
21:38:10 <zuff> oklopol: relink?
21:38:16 <oklopol> http://www.wreck.devisland.net/ga/
21:40:11 <MizardX> 366 generations, 6623.56 seconds to evolve the string "crossover is applied on an individual by simply switching one of its nodes with another node from another individual in the population" :)
21:41:08 <MizardX> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p223433564.txt
21:41:21 <zuff> MizardX: Stop doing things better than me damnit
21:41:28 <zuff> ch = random.choice('abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz ')
21:41:32 <zuff> Fail. That is so cheating.
21:41:46 <zuff> Also, that is some slow generationing.
21:42:10 <zuff> also oklopol
21:42:12 <zuff> they're time-limited
21:42:18 <zuff> so if they all get to the same place it's probably over
21:42:29 <zuff> I've got a very good batch here.
21:42:32 <oklopol> err.
21:42:47 <oklopol> of course they're time-limited, they never die
21:42:52 <zuff> right
21:42:56 <oklopol> they became balanced in a minute
21:42:57 <zuff> but are they increasing in speed
21:42:57 <zuff> or
21:43:03 <oklopol> yes
21:50:06 <oklopol> j is a pretty awesome language
21:50:21 <pikhq> Pffft. C's better.
21:50:21 <oklopol> i especially love the way function composition works
21:50:23 <pikhq> ;)
21:50:36 <oklopol> i don't really like c
21:50:39 <oklopol> :|
21:51:06 <pikhq> That's because you don't know the true *power* involved.
21:51:18 <oklopol> i'd like to see that evolution thing try to make a unicycle
21:51:22 <oklopol> pikhq: yeah sure :P
21:51:51 <pikhq> Ternary operators in ternary operators in ternary operators!
21:52:07 <oklopol> !
21:52:22 <pikhq> (only when I'm a jerk)
21:52:22 <oklopol> so...
21:52:36 <oklopol> you're saying c owns j at writing expressions that are short but hard to read?
21:52:47 <pikhq> Basically.
21:52:54 <oklopol> :P
21:52:55 <ais523> pikhq: you are wrong on this, I think
21:52:57 <zuff> pikhq: you're delusional, or have never seen j
21:52:58 <pikhq> Probably not true, but language bigotry doesn't have to be logical.
21:52:58 <oklopol> and you know j?
21:52:58 <zuff> :P
21:53:09 <zuff> j is the son of apl fer chrissakes
21:53:10 <pikhq> Oh, who am I kidding?
21:53:11 <zuff> except it uses ASCII
21:53:14 <zuff> and is even crazir
21:53:16 <zuff> crazier
21:53:24 <pikhq> J is ASCII APL. C got its ass kicked.
21:53:41 <oklopol> yes
21:53:48 * oklopol loves it
21:54:03 <pikhq> ... Unless you do inline assembly by defining char pointers to hand-compiled machine code?
21:54:08 <pikhq> >:D
21:54:21 <oklopol> i mean i have the feeling i won't change python for a language without some kind of objects, but this is definitely something i'm going to learn very goodly.
21:55:01 <oklopol> pikhq: well that's basically interpretation, in which case obfuscation is language-independent.
21:55:24 <oklopol> TAKE THAT
21:55:49 <oklopol> hmm wait
21:55:53 <oklopol> the topic is outdated.
21:56:04 <zuff> no it's not
21:56:48 <zuff> hmmmmmm
21:57:05 <zuff> oklopol: you should code a thing that evolves a car out of primitive things
21:57:10 <zuff> like, really simple things
21:57:21 <oklopol> something like that would be awesome
21:57:27 <zuff> a connecting line, a circle (that doesn't roll, ofc)
21:57:28 <zuff> well
21:57:29 <zuff> it rolls
21:57:34 <zuff> but it'd have to come up with its own connections
21:57:40 <zuff> and yeah.
21:57:42 <oklopol> unfortunately physics engines are quite a mental exercise to get working.
21:57:51 <pikhq> So I've been told.
21:57:52 <zuff> oklopol: write your own, it doesn't need to be realistic :P
21:58:03 <oklopol> zuff: i've written a lot of those
21:58:12 <oklopol> and i guess i could just use one of those
21:58:18 <oklopol> hmm.
21:58:31 <oklopol> except i guess i've only done stuff with ball vs polygon collisions
21:58:38 <oklopol> (because that's trivial)
21:58:40 <zuff> you could have like,
21:58:51 <zuff> plank, of various lengths and widths and stuff
21:58:58 <zuff> ball
21:58:59 <zuff> circle
21:59:00 <zuff> tyre
21:59:12 <zuff> a hub for connetions, tht makes them bend
21:59:15 <zuff> (to tie it together)
21:59:19 <zuff> and stuff
21:59:21 <oklopol> and i'm not comfortable doing collision math i can't derive myself (NIHS)
21:59:24 <oklopol> hmm
21:59:25 <zuff> and it'd just start out as a mash of stuff that falls aprat
21:59:36 <zuff> it'd have to go at like 20x speed to that flash one
21:59:41 <zuff> but it'd evolve its own mechanisms
21:59:46 <zuff> and add pulleys and gears and cogs
21:59:53 <zuff> and it'll build a working vehicle
21:59:55 <zuff> *eventually*
22:00:04 <oklopol> that'd be very neat
22:00:12 * oklopol puts on todo list!
22:00:24 <zuff> oklopol: then, you add stuff to make weapons with
22:00:29 <oklopol> xD
22:00:31 <zuff> and make cars SHOOT THE FUCK OUT OF EACH OTHER
22:00:40 <zuff> CARVOLUTION SHOWDOWN 2009
22:00:40 <oklopol> yeah and sensors of course
22:00:43 <zuff> yes
22:00:47 <oklopol> so they can become intelligent! :D
22:01:11 <oklopol> well.
22:01:12 <zuff> oklopol: forget vehicle, make it evolve a robot
22:01:13 <zuff> :D
22:01:18 <zuff> it'll move eventually, robots have to
22:01:21 <zuff> so you get vehicle for free
22:01:46 <oklopol> hmm...
22:02:01 <zuff> i mean
22:02:02 <zuff> you can have
22:02:04 <oklopol> so how about just having like an area where bots go around killing each other.
22:02:09 <zuff> oklopol: well yeah
22:02:14 <zuff> once it evolves single moving ais
22:02:22 <zuff> you can put some more materials & fitness logic in
22:02:28 <zuff> and they can evolve defense and stuff
22:02:34 <zuff> just pit them against basic flying droids and stuff
22:02:38 <zuff> then you can pit them against each other
22:02:46 <oklopol> heh. would be pretty neat
22:02:56 <zuff> oklopol: preferably the fitness function's params would evolve depending on how well it does in practice
22:03:01 <ais523> oklopol: you should try these techniques on this year's ICFP contest
22:03:03 <oklopol> and maybe you could build your own bots and fight themmmm
22:03:05 <zuff> i.e. it changes its theoretical fitness function to match how the bot does irl
22:03:19 <zuff> it'd be totally neato!
22:03:27 <oklopol> zuff: hmm?
22:03:37 <zuff> oklopol: well i was just rambling :)
22:03:39 <oklopol> i'm not sure what you meant by this fitness function comment
22:03:40 <oklopol> okay
22:03:41 <oklopol> :P
22:03:50 <oklopol> well yeah second order evolution is an interesting concept
22:04:01 <oklopol> but that's a whole another degree of hard
22:04:06 <zuff> true
22:04:31 <oklopol> especially as i'd want to make it a totally self-sufficient evolution system
22:04:58 <oklopol> (for which i like to use the term "life")
22:05:13 <zuff> :P
22:05:34 <oklopol> i love this j tutorial, often it doesn't explain the syntax at all, just uses it
22:05:43 <ais523> what could be impressive would be a reverse evolutionary program
22:05:49 <oklopol> then i use like 10 minutes reverse-engineering how i think it might work
22:05:54 <ais523> which always stays the same, but seeks out better and better programmers to maintain it
22:05:59 <oklopol> and when i finally get it, i press "advance", and things are explained
22:06:00 <oklopol> :D
22:06:04 <ais523> and trains up its programmers to become better at maintenence programming
22:06:08 <ais523> *maintanence
22:06:14 <ais523> *maintainence
22:06:14 <zuff> lol
22:06:20 <ais523> umm, not sure how to spell that particular word
22:06:22 <zuff> ais523: i think it's called open sourc
22:06:23 <zuff> e
22:06:24 <ais523> which is strange for me
22:06:31 <oklopol> maintenance
22:06:32 <zuff> os x sez maintenance
22:06:35 <ais523> that's it
22:06:42 <ais523> how did I manage to mess it up so much?
22:07:31 <oklopol> not sure.
22:07:39 <oklopol> high-maintenance is a very common adjective
22:08:57 <zuff> oklopol: you know, that ai would be really funny
22:09:00 <zuff> it'd look ridiculous, probably
22:09:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:09:16 <zuff> made out of tons of planks and pulleys and extending/unextending arms and sensors poking out from everywhere
22:09:23 <zuff> and i bet it moves by like rolling around and contracting X
22:09:24 <zuff> XD
22:10:50 <oklopol> hmm.
22:11:07 <oklopol> do you think it should be side- or top-cam'd?
22:11:30 <oklopol> "view" might be a better term.
22:11:38 <zuff> oklopol: well
22:11:46 <zuff> i think that top-cammed would leave more possibilities
22:11:51 <zuff> i.e. pushing boxes nicely and stuff
22:11:51 <zuff> but
22:11:56 <zuff> side-perspective, like the flash car,
22:12:01 <zuff> is nicer to watch
22:12:05 <oklopol> yes
22:12:29 <LinuS> http://lexlibertas.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/i-divided-by-zero.jpg
22:12:35 <oklopol> also, the technicalities of moving around are not very interesting with top-view
22:12:43 <oklopol> unless you still have complex ground
22:12:52 <oklopol> but then you clearly should just do 3d
22:12:56 <oklopol> which i'm not going to do
22:12:58 <zuff> yeah
22:13:34 <oklopol> because while i've read books about the subject, i somehow think that would turn out to be harder than the actual evolution part.
22:13:46 <oklopol> cuz i haven't actually done that.
22:14:12 <oklopol> so, my point
22:14:28 <oklopol> if it's top-cam'd, i'm not sure whether it's useful to make moving at all complicated.
22:16:20 <oklopol> then again, i'd definitely like the whole program to be somehow completely physical...
22:16:24 <oklopol> hmmhmm.
22:18:58 <oerjan> LinuS: it's going to be a cold day in hell until i click another link by you
22:19:11 <ais523> I almost clicked, but noticed the person who sent it just in time
22:19:38 <ais523> oerjan: is that a shock-site too?
22:19:47 <oerjan> how should i know?
22:19:47 <ais523> I don't know about that one, but it seemed plausible from context
22:19:51 <ais523> ah, ok
22:20:02 <ais523> so either it's LinuS messing with us, or a shock-site
22:20:04 <ais523> not useful either way
22:20:14 * ais523 puts LinuS on ignore
22:20:24 <zuff> it isn't
22:20:32 <zuff> it's a boring, unfunny image
22:20:44 <zuff> I'll /ignore LinuS if he talks again, probably.
22:20:55 <ais523> isn't that the same as just /ignoring?
22:21:13 <oerjan> ais523: off-by-one error
22:21:47 <GreaseMonkey> it's times like these we need graue.
22:22:02 <oerjan> why graue?
22:22:04 <ais523> why do we need graue in particular? is the wiki down again?
22:22:09 <oklopol> what has LinuS linked in the past that was shocking?
22:22:52 <LinuS> i find that pic pure genius, but whatever, i've been reductio ad hitlerumed
22:23:04 <LinuS> lemonparty, oklopol
22:23:08 <oklopol> it's just a bit old
22:23:16 <oklopol> link lemonparty, i'll take the blame.
22:23:29 <oklopol> or i can just ggl
22:24:08 <oklopol> oh.
22:24:15 <oerjan> LinuS: nonsense! i have never heard that hitler posted shock picture links.
22:24:16 <oklopol> that's... so shocking.
22:24:29 <oklopol> they are not only old, they are also men.
22:24:35 * oklopol can't take it
22:25:09 <LinuS> oerjan: hitler was even banned from WoW and rickrolled a lot of times, check youtube
22:25:18 <oerjan> ah
22:25:36 <LinuS> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r9dzc0duUw
22:26:01 * oklopol likes boxes
22:27:16 <zuff> 22:25 LinuS: oerjan: hitler was even banned from WoW and rickrolled a lot of times, check youtube
22:27:28 <zuff> ^ you're not funny and you're annoying
22:28:10 <oklopol> heh, zuff is even more of a bitch than tusho and ehird :P
22:28:32 <oerjan> oklopol: i think there's some kind of evolutionary algorithm at work there
22:28:35 <zuff> sorry for being such a bitch to the absolute comedy gold of old men having sex and talking about hitler.
22:29:24 <LinuS> don't worry, not everyone can take jokes
22:29:29 <LinuS> it's not your fault
22:30:21 <oklopol> zuff: i don't think LinuS was being very funny either, i just didn't find him annoying
22:30:51 <oklopol> then again i can't be annoyed by anything right now, i'm having j
22:30:52 <zuff> LinuS: except nobody so far has found anything you've said funny as far as I can tell, and you've been ignored by at least one person already
22:30:57 <zuff> maybe your imaginary friends laughed.
22:31:07 <oklopol> :D
22:31:43 <oklopol> LinuS: now see, zuff is funny. try something like that
22:32:05 <zuff> sorry, it's physically impossible for anyone but me to be funny.
22:32:10 <zuff> i have a monopoly on funny.
22:32:17 <oklopol> oh.
22:32:18 <oklopol> well fuck
22:32:22 <zuff> it's a shame
22:32:26 <LinuS> oh, you mean start flaming, telling "i have ignored you" and then talking to someone and acting randomly?
22:32:28 <zuff> i'm considering leasing out funny
22:32:30 <LinuS> guess i can do it
22:32:50 <zuff> LinuS: out of curiosity, have you ever talked about esolangs in here?
22:33:12 * oklopol hasn't
22:33:19 <LinuS> aha i've ignored you! i can't ready you! i'm leethaxor! i 0wnt you! joo!
22:33:26 <LinuS> can't read*
22:33:45 <zuff> "question answering by method of trying to mock the asker and failing badly"
22:33:54 <zuff> it's the future
22:34:27 <oklopol> i accidentally the future
22:34:55 <oerjan> zuff: i am sorry this is clearly a lie. i have a patent on the whole "pun" subfranchise
22:35:05 <ais523> btw: have you seen <http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Rnz100.svg>?
22:35:09 <zuff> oerjan: yes, but your puns aren't funny.
22:35:11 <zuff> no intersection.
22:35:16 <ais523> that isn't a shock site, it's one of the world's craziest random number functions
22:35:26 <LinuS> me? talking about esolangs?
22:35:29 <ais523> the probability distribution, to be precis
22:35:30 <LinuS> oh, no, never.
22:35:31 <LinuS> http://rafb.net/p/J9RrrL70.html
22:35:33 <oerjan> well then that explains it
22:35:34 <ais523> *precise
22:35:44 <ais523> oerjan's puns are funny!
22:35:50 <zuff> LinuS: ah. i remember that one. I pretended to be mildly interested to humour you.
22:36:02 <Slereah-> You're a saint, zuff
22:36:05 <zuff> i'm not sure the ratio is one shocksite link per trivial esolang, though.
22:36:14 <zuff> nobody told me if it is
22:36:24 <ais523> "rnz produces such a bizarre distribution that it is hard to tell what the original programmer had in mind. It's quite possible that it was meant to be some distribution with Z in the name, but its construction doesn't seem to suggest one."
22:36:35 <LinuS> yawn
22:36:36 <Slereah-> http://www.efukt.com/2339_The_Worst_Sex_Accident_Of_All_Time.html
22:36:41 <Slereah-> Just doing my quota.
22:37:05 <LinuS> well what about goatse then?
22:37:21 <zuff> Slereah-: well, you're Slereah-
22:37:26 <zuff> ithink we all know not to click your links.
22:37:29 <zuff> also, you actually talk about interesting stuff.
22:37:37 <Slereah-> Do I?
22:37:46 <Slereah-> I thought I mostly talked about butts.
22:37:49 <oklopol> ais523: that indeed looks more weird than just stupid
22:37:52 <ais523> Slereah-: is that a shock site?
22:37:58 <zuff> ais523: a porn site.
22:38:02 <Slereah-> ais523 : Just look at the fucking link
22:38:05 <zuff> "e fucked", "The worst sex accident of all time"
22:38:06 <ais523> no, I don't
22:38:08 <zuff> It's not rocket science.
22:38:12 <ais523> I tend not to click on links in IRC anyway
22:38:16 <Slereah-> I mean, read it
22:38:17 <oklopol> i mean, you can see all kinds of patterns, i've had a lot of "hey, maybe the point is... wait, no"'s
22:38:20 <Slereah-> READ WHAT IT SAYS
22:38:26 <ais523> especially not during a conversation about shock sites
22:38:29 <Slereah-> It's quite shocking, yes.
22:38:35 <zuff> ais523: he meant read the actual link
22:38:39 <ais523> I don't even follow links zuff gives me, I ask em what's at the other end first
22:38:39 <zuff> which made it fairly obviou
22:38:39 <zuff> s
22:38:40 <ais523> and ok
22:38:58 <Slereah-> If you're a brave man, you can also click it
22:39:00 <zuff> ais523: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu_moia-oVI
22:39:13 <Slereah-> Heh.
22:39:19 <oklopol> 1g1c is not very shocking either
22:39:30 <Slereah-> Well, not by trolls standards.
22:39:31 <oklopol> i was like "when does this start?" when i watched it
22:39:41 <LinuS> same
22:40:04 <oklopol> the real of 1g1c is the caption
22:40:11 <ais523> "If the hero's experience level is 18 or greater, then rne can return numbers greater than 5; but this event has low probability (1/1024 for all experience levels 18 or greater), and to keep this explanation simple it will not be considered."
22:40:15 <oklopol> *piont
22:40:16 <oklopol> *point
22:40:33 <ais523> yep, rnz could only have been designed by someone who was very tired and didn't realise what they were writing
22:40:43 <ais523> oklopol: maybe rnz could be some operator for noprob?
22:40:49 <ais523> it's certainly weird enough, it might make it TC
22:41:03 <ais523> map probabilities through an rnz-distribution
22:41:04 <Slereah-> Heh.
22:41:15 <oklopol> :D
22:42:26 <oklopol> ais523: weirdness doesn't really give tcness...
22:42:39 <ais523> oklopol: well, know
22:42:41 <ais523> *no
22:42:45 <oklopol> it's more the simple logical stuff that does it
22:42:48 <Slereah-> BUT IT COULD :o
22:43:01 <Slereah-> Well, logical stuff, you usually know if it makes something TC
22:43:07 <Slereah-> But something weird?
22:43:09 <Slereah-> Who knows!
22:43:16 <oklopol> what i want for noprob would be to remove the whole probability thing... and somehow get data structures out of the "dependency graph"
22:43:23 <oklopol> i mean, it's an interesting thought
22:43:40 <oklopol> you have a lot of variables, and they are all linked in different ways through operators
22:43:45 <oklopol> in a large graph
22:44:17 <oklopol> you can't really access the inner nodes, because there are no such operatorsin logic, which is why you can't get data structures
22:44:25 <oklopol> but you can *create* data structures
22:44:31 <LinuS> ok
22:44:37 <LinuS> i promise this one to be funny
22:44:39 <LinuS> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5z4Vs26-TI&feature=related
22:44:47 <LinuS> no, it isn't a rickroll
22:45:05 <oklopol> so i was thinking maybe you could make primitives that somehow found existing variables that have certain correlations with the variables you're actually holding
22:45:18 <oklopol> but this is all so vague, and it completely nulls everything i had sofar
22:46:23 <zuff> back
22:47:31 <oklopol> LinuS: heh, that indeed is funny
22:47:46 <oklopol> except for the fucking laugh track
22:51:20 <LinuS> bye
22:51:35 <LinuS> p.s.:
22:51:38 <LinuS> zuff, get a life
22:51:40 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi.").
22:51:47 <zuff> oh
22:51:50 <zuff> my pitiful existance
22:51:50 <zuff> ruined
22:51:56 <zuff> ruined, i say
22:52:08 <zuff> how can my life ever be as exciting and outgoing as mr lemonparty?
22:52:09 <zuff> oh lodr
22:52:12 <zuff> oerjan, oklopol, ais523
22:52:14 <zuff> i can't take it any more
22:52:18 <zuff> this will be the last you see of me
22:52:19 <zuff> goodbye
22:52:20 -!- zuff has left (?).
22:52:27 -!- zuff has joined.
22:52:29 <zuff> err guys
22:52:32 <zuff> can i borrow some sugar?
22:52:33 <zuff> oh. ok
22:52:34 -!- zuff has left (?).
22:52:57 -!- zuff has joined.
22:52:58 <zuff> you sure?
22:53:02 <zuff> not just a lil bit of sugar?
22:53:03 <oklopol> hmm
22:53:05 <zuff> help a poor guy out here?
22:53:08 <zuff> fine.
22:53:10 <zuff> be that way.
22:53:10 <oklopol> what *kind* of sugar
22:53:13 <zuff> i'll just go starve.
22:53:13 -!- zuff has left (?).
22:53:14 <oklopol> wait wait
22:53:17 <oklopol> oh dear.
22:53:21 <oklopol> he's such a speed-pants
22:53:27 -!- zuff has joined.
22:53:32 <zuff> I'll have you know that sugar is very
22:53:34 <zuff> nutritious
22:53:36 <zuff> and by depriving
22:53:38 <zuff> me of it you are
22:53:40 -!- zuff has left (?).
22:54:02 -!- zuff has joined.
22:54:03 <zuff> i need
22:54:03 <ais523> oklopol: I suggest brown sugar, because zuff seems to want nutrition
22:54:04 <zuff> SYUGAR
22:54:07 <zuff> can't taken it any more
22:54:10 <zuff> i'm dying
22:54:12 <zuff> need sugarhruyi
22:54:13 <zuff> arkwoie
22:54:14 -!- zuff has left (?).
22:54:30 -!- zuff has joined.
22:54:32 <zuff> hurhigdfkjdf
22:54:34 -!- zuff has left (?).
22:54:49 -!- zuff has joined.
22:54:51 <zuff> r...
22:54:52 <zuff> ro..
22:54:54 <zuff> ros...
22:54:58 <zuff> rosebu-u... u
22:54:59 <zuff> rosebud
22:55:03 <zuff> uiahsdiaw67&!% ~
22:55:04 <zuff> 34;ik2lo2ol953
22:55:06 -!- zuff has left (?).
22:55:29 -!- zuff has joined.
22:55:32 <zuff> wow guys being a ghost is fun
22:55:32 <oklopol> LinuS is missing quite a lesson in internet comedy.
22:55:36 <zuff> hey can i borrow some sugar?
22:55:43 <ais523> I thought the whole point of bouncers was to avoid quitjoinspam?
22:55:43 <zuff> p...please?
22:55:47 <zuff> i'm... really hungry
22:55:49 <zuff> need some sugar
22:55:50 <zuff> even as a ghost
22:55:55 <oklopol> ais523: it's crucial to the act
22:55:55 <zuff> oh god being a ghost is awful
22:56:01 <zuff> oklopol: sugar? plz?
22:56:10 <zuff> begging you hear
22:56:11 <oklopol> but really, we shouldn't be talking out loud in the audience
22:56:12 <zuff> here
22:56:16 <oklopol> oh
22:56:17 <zuff> I NEED SOME SUGAR
22:56:20 <oklopol> am i supposed to answer :|
22:56:23 <oklopol> zuff: err
22:56:24 <oklopol> i guess
22:56:25 <zuff> YES
22:56:27 <zuff> SUGAR!! NEED
22:56:28 <oklopol> i could think about it?
22:56:28 <zuff> sdo
22:56:30 <zuff> i'm
22:56:31 <zuff> dying
22:56:34 <zuff> ple
22:56:34 * oklopol hands out
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22:56:39 <oklopol> too late.
22:56:41 <zuff> oops slipped on my keyboard
22:56:43 <zuff> so oklopol
22:56:44 <oklopol> oh cool
22:56:45 <zuff> how about some sugar
22:56:45 <oklopol> yeah
22:56:47 <oklopol> take some!
22:56:49 * oklopol gives
22:56:51 -!- zuff has left (?).
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22:56:56 <zuff> whoops
22:56:58 <zuff> butterfingers
22:57:00 <zuff> :|
22:57:04 <zuff> can i have some of thems sugar oklopol?
22:57:09 <oklopol> let's make them *sugar*fingers
22:57:15 * oklopol gives a large pile of suggah
22:57:26 <zuff> suggah?
22:57:27 <zuff> i need sugar
22:57:29 <zuff> not suggah
22:57:34 <zuff> plz?
22:57:45 <zuff> please
22:57:47 <zuff> i'm starving
22:57:58 <zuff> :'(
22:58:00 <zuff> ch--chk
22:58:00 <zuff> of
22:58:02 <zuff> sjpdfjasoi
22:58:05 <ais523> zuff: I tried to DCC you some sugat
22:58:07 <ais523> *sugar
22:58:08 <zuff> g-g-
22:58:11 <zuff> ais523: it failed
22:58:13 <zuff> g-g-h-sho
22:58:14 <zuff> gho
22:58:16 <zuff> ghost...
22:58:18 <zuff> ghostbud
22:58:19 -!- zuff has left (?).
22:58:25 -!- zuff has joined.
22:58:27 <zuff> err almost forgot
22:58:28 <zuff> dskfuY*@Y!
22:58:30 <zuff> r32iy84324
22:58:30 <ais523> someone else will have to give zuff the sugar
22:58:32 <zuff> ```28907*EYHCX
22:58:34 -!- zuff has left (?).
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22:59:24 <zuff> wow guys being a metaghost is fun
22:59:29 <zuff> can i have some metasugar?
22:59:41 <ais523> [22:59] [DCC] Upload of "sugar.o" to zuff failed. Reason: Timed out.
22:59:42 <zuff> ~THE END~
22:59:48 <zuff> ^ internet comedy gold
22:59:51 <oklopol> yes
22:59:54 <oklopol> i loved that
22:59:55 <ais523> no, it wasn't
22:59:59 <ais523> not really that funny
23:00:02 <zuff> ais523: 2 vs 1
23:00:09 <zuff> democracy in action
23:00:11 <oklopol> i laughed out loud
23:00:21 <ais523> there are a huge number of people here who didn't comment that it was funny
23:00:24 <zuff> i chuckled at my own jokes.
23:00:28 <ais523> (N.B. I know this is a fallacious argument)
23:00:31 <zuff> ais523: there is no quorum in #esoteric
23:00:39 <ais523> however, that doesn't mean its conclusion is wrong!
23:00:54 <oklopol> umm.
23:01:03 <oklopol> what's NB short for?
23:01:05 * ais523 applies ad logicam twice, to create a meta-ad-logicam that proves that if something is the conclusion of a fallacious argument, it is true
23:01:10 <ais523> oklopol: "by the way"
23:01:10 <oklopol> have to ask, since it's also the j comment.
23:01:19 <oklopol> yes but i mean
23:01:22 <zuff> it's some latin shit
23:01:23 <oklopol> what's it short for
23:01:24 <zuff> :P
23:01:27 <ais523> it's one of those acronyms that only work in Latin
23:01:31 <ais523> "Nota Bene"
23:01:38 <ais523> which means "note well", i.e. "note in a good manner"
23:01:38 <oklopol> hmm.
23:01:41 <oklopol> i've actually asked that
23:01:48 <oklopol> and you've answered
23:01:49 <zuff> ais523: i think it means
23:01:50 <zuff> note well
23:01:51 <zuff> as in
23:01:56 <zuff> note properly and carefully
23:04:12 <zuff> this car is shit
23:08:11 <oerjan> <oklopol> have to ask, since it's also the j comment.
23:08:20 <oerjan> you mean the actual comment delimiter?
23:08:24 <ais523> yes
23:08:27 <ais523> IIRC
23:09:22 <ais523> Algol had ¢ as one option for a comment delimiter, IIRC
23:09:45 <oklopol> NB.
23:11:03 <oklopol> fac =: 1`(]*$:@<:)@.* NB. i think this is a factorial, but i need to check
23:11:17 <oklopol> well definitely not!
23:11:28 <zuff> oklopol: that's an ugly fac
23:11:30 <zuff> it could be a lot shorter
23:12:23 <oklopol> oh.
23:12:27 <oklopol> 1:, of course
23:12:29 <ais523> it looks like a smiley
23:12:33 <oklopol> zuff: could it?
23:12:33 <ais523> just a very complex one
23:12:51 <oklopol> let's see...
23:12:53 <zuff> oklopol: surely, i mean, that's shorter in haskell:
23:12:58 <zuff> fac n = product [1..n]
23:13:01 <oerjan> ais523: a smiley by something out of betelgeuse
23:13:09 <oklopol> hmm */1+i.
23:13:10 * ais523 goes home
23:13:14 <oklopol> well
23:13:31 <oklopol> */@(1:+i.) maybe
23:13:50 <oklopol> zuff: point is that factorial algo can't probably be shorter
23:14:18 <oklopol> and yeah that works
23:14:40 <oklopol> i'm having some trouble getting things right, as the tutorial i'm reading doesn't really formally explain what's happening
23:20:12 <oklopol> zuff: also fac=:! of course :P
23:20:17 <zuff> lol
23:30:02 <zuff> hey oklopol
23:30:04 <zuff> ap[]}ASO)!I_)!
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23:31:07 <oklopol> lol... dyadic # is overloaded, it's both filter and concatMap . replicate
23:31:42 <zuff> o.o
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2008-12-09
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06:37:53 <GregorR> CHEESE IT, THE COPS!
06:40:33 <GregorR> Hahahah, they pulled over a pizza delivery car X-D
07:05:23 <bsmntbombdood> hai gregor
07:38:07 <pikhq> Wow.
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08:06:47 <AnMaster> morning
08:16:20 <oklopol> mor
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08:28:18 <oklopol> okay, project for c++ course: implement virtual machine for an object oriented scripting language :o
08:28:59 * oklopol likes
08:29:57 <Asztal> will HQ9++ do?
08:35:36 <oklopol> well actually everything is specced exactly
08:36:20 <oklopol> so i'll just make a statically typed language and compile into the vm, in case i feel like being creative
08:57:38 <olsner> oklopol: you can build a JVM in a weekend
08:58:03 <olsner> oh, they gave you a spec for it too
09:06:42 <oklopol> yeah, so it's quite simple
09:07:13 <oklopol> but, still the best project ever
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13:57:55 <ehird> +/%#
13:57:57 <ehird> valid j code.
13:58:08 <oerjan> also valid line noise.
13:58:49 <ehird> yes.
13:58:52 <ehird> not even perl can beat that.
13:59:16 <oklopol> not even oklotalk can beat that :<
13:59:26 <ehird> oklopol: what about cise
13:59:42 <oerjan> i think it might be a legal perl fragment though, if the / terminates a regex
13:59:55 <oklopol> well. in cise + sums the list, but i'll have to think a bit about the exact syntax of the whole
14:00:24 <ehird> oklopol: +/ is fold + so it's sum
14:00:27 <ehird> % is divide, # length
14:00:29 <ehird> i assume you know that
14:00:32 <oklopol> well. /+# might work.
14:00:34 <oklopol> yeah of course
14:00:49 <oklopol> think i can't read j perfectly after two days of learning?
14:00:55 <ehird> i wish i could
14:00:56 <ehird> :<
14:01:10 <ehird> oklopol: does /+# read from stdin?
14:01:12 <oklopol> it's pretty intuitive.
14:01:21 <oklopol> ehird: no it reads from the input stream
14:01:26 <oklopol> well input register
14:01:27 <ehird> i mean
14:01:29 <ehird> in cise
14:01:29 <oklopol> more like
14:01:34 <oklopol> nope.
14:01:34 <oerjan> intuitive in a hideous, non-euclidean way
14:01:38 <ehird> it does in j
14:01:43 <oklopol> no it doesn't
14:01:53 <ehird> oklopol: yes, it does - it's just that in j, code is entered on the stdin stream too
14:01:57 <ehird> that's how function arguments work in j
14:02:03 <ehird> (+/ % #) 1 2 3
14:02:04 <oklopol> the value of +/%# is just the boxed function.
14:02:11 <ehird> ^ reads 1, 2 and 3 from stdin
14:02:16 <ehird> when it is written to stdin
14:02:33 <ehird> i think that's really nice, it's like forth
14:02:38 <oklopol> didn't know that.
14:02:49 <oklopol> anyway no cise doesn't do that
14:02:53 <oklopol> oklotalk does
14:03:10 <ehird> oklopol: are you going to learn k next?
14:03:13 <ehird> it seems even more concise
14:03:33 <oklopol> ehird: perhaps, the bottlenecks are mostly the same.
14:03:42 <ehird> oklopol: link to where you learned j?
14:03:43 <oklopol> so i could prolly learn it in seccunds.
14:03:47 <oklopol> err.
14:03:52 <oklopol> i dl'd j602
14:03:56 <oklopol> there are these "labs"
14:03:58 <ehird> ok
14:04:04 <ehird> also, I think what's needed to get j even more concise
14:04:07 <ehird> is implicit maps/folds
14:04:13 <ehird> sum is just +
14:04:17 <ehird> that has the nice property of:
14:04:19 <ehird> 1 + 2
14:04:21 <ehird> and
14:04:21 <ehird> + 1 2
14:04:23 <ehird> being the same
14:04:39 <ehird> +%#
14:05:27 <ehird> not sure how you'd get shorter than that?
14:05:33 <oklopol> that only helps in that special case
14:05:37 <ehird> it's reduced to the basic operations: sum divided by length
14:05:43 <oklopol> - 1 2
14:05:43 <oklopol> _1 _2
14:05:55 <ehird> oklopol: what about it
14:06:03 <ehird> - 1 2 would be the same as 1 - 2
14:06:05 <oklopol> implicit fold only makes sense for +, pretty impure to make it an exception
14:06:07 <ehird> - 1 2 3 would be 1 - 2 - 3
14:06:16 <oklopol> ehird: - 1 2 was input
14:06:19 <oklopol> _1 _2 was output
14:06:31 <ehird> oklopol: why is (fold - [1 2]) [-1 -2]?
14:06:38 <oklopol> ...
14:06:47 <oklopol> hmm
14:06:53 <oklopol> right you thought i okay.
14:06:55 <ehird> :P
14:06:55 <oklopol> my point
14:06:59 <oklopol> j already has a meaning for
14:07:01 <oklopol> that
14:07:07 <ehird> i know
14:07:10 <oklopol> + 1 2 ====== (+1), (+2)
14:07:12 <ehird> i'm talking about how you make j even more concise :P
14:07:41 <oklopol> yeah, but i don't think hacks like that are very j'y (they definitely are somewhat j'y, but not *that* j'y), they are very cise'y though
14:07:48 <ehird> well
14:07:55 <ehird> + % # is a beautiful program
14:07:55 <ehird> i mean
14:07:58 <ehird> if we write it out in english:
14:08:04 <ehird> sum divide length
14:08:15 <ehird> it's the three operations that actually make up the definition of averaging
14:08:17 <ehird> and no extra cruft
14:08:25 <ehird> and that's really nice
14:08:53 <oklopol> yeah, but that has a meaning just as intuitive as is, div elems by list length
14:09:04 <ehird> yeah but
14:09:08 <ehird> the / in +/ % # is unneeded
14:09:14 <ehird> +ing a list
14:09:16 <ehird> is obviously summing it
14:09:20 <ehird> that's just what it is
14:09:24 <ehird> adding a list
14:09:35 <ehird> so it can be implicit
14:09:36 <oklopol> sorry, i disagree.
14:09:55 <ehird> oklopol: what other meaning does adding a list have?
14:10:20 <oklopol> I DISAGREE
14:10:24 <ehird> oklopol: well, tell me
14:10:32 <oklopol> don't make me use supercase...
14:10:35 <ehird> because if you can't think of one, i'm pretty sure it's intuitive that adding a list is summing it
14:10:59 <oklopol> well yeah of course fold is more intuitive than map for +, because unary plus is a fucking useless operation.
14:11:28 <ehird> oklopol: for all OP, I'm not sure "OPing a list" makes sense as mapping op over list
14:11:31 <oklopol> but something like having unary + be abs would be much more sensible imo, and keeping the implicit map
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14:11:33 <ehird> find an OP where it does
14:11:45 <oklopol> ehird: that's really at war with the whole idea of j
14:11:50 <ehird> i know, so what
14:11:52 <ehird> answer me
14:11:52 <ehird> :P
14:11:55 <oklopol> err.
14:12:02 <oklopol> write some j. it's all about mapping
14:12:06 <oklopol> ...
14:12:08 <ehird> i don't care about j
14:12:10 <ehird> goddamn
14:12:10 <oklopol> wait, yeah, i said correctly
14:12:14 <ehird> I'm asking a question
14:12:15 <ehird> answer it
14:12:35 <oklopol> what, - makes sense over a list
14:12:43 <oklopol> as does really any unary operator
14:12:46 <ehird> - 1 2 3
14:12:48 <ehird> makes sense to me as
14:12:50 <ehird> 1 - 2 - 3
14:12:56 <ehird> if you want negation, use _
14:12:58 <ehird> _ 1 2 3
14:12:59 <ehird> =
14:12:59 <oklopol> oh. not to me.
14:13:02 <ehird> _1, _2, _3
14:13:18 <ehird> (monadic funcs are mapped, dyadic ones are folded, is my current thinking)
14:13:21 <oklopol> whatever, i don't agree with any of this.
14:13:28 <ehird> don't you care about tiny prgorams? :P
14:13:45 <oklopol> bleh.
14:13:54 <oklopol> almost all j operators are both unary and binary
14:14:07 <ehird> eh, you can do some contexterizing to find out which you want
14:14:10 <oklopol> and mapping the unaries is usually what you want.
14:14:20 <oklopol> err... k.
14:14:25 <oklopol> that sounds like something cise would do
14:14:27 <ehird> +_ 1 2 3
14:14:29 <oklopol> not very j'y still
14:14:29 <ehird> =>
14:14:30 <ehird> -6
14:14:35 <ehird> oklopol: i don't want something j'y
14:14:39 <ehird> i want something concise and cool :P
14:14:47 <oklopol> I REFUSE TO UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT OF VIEW
14:14:50 <ehird> +_ 1 2 3 -> -6 makes perfect sense imo
14:15:05 * oklopol is in a hurry, and just wants to disagree
14:15:09 <ehird> lolz
14:15:12 <oklopol> not that that makes any sense
14:15:20 <oklopol> :P
14:15:41 <ehird> the only problem is
14:15:42 <ehird> ascii
14:15:43 <ehird> is
14:15:45 <ehird> too
14:15:47 <ehird> small
14:15:49 <ehird> :'(
14:16:02 <oklopol> must leave, yeah, you're right, i like that unary = map, binary = fold thing; assuming you clear up what "contexterizing" is
14:16:04 <oklopol> :)
14:16:06 <oklopol> yeah it is
14:16:10 <ehird> oklopol: well, bye but
14:16:15 <oklopol> WE SHOULD INVENT, LIKE, A SYSTEM WITH MORE CHARS
14:16:15 <ehird> i think functions should have like
14:16:16 <ehird> either
14:16:18 * oklopol goes ---->
14:16:20 <ehird> "mainly unary"
14:16:20 <ehird> or
14:16:22 <ehird> "mainly binary"
14:16:26 <ehird> which flips their map/fold behaviour
14:16:29 <ehird> and you can override it explicitly
14:16:32 <ehird> if you really need to
14:16:36 <oklopol> haha, that's lovely :)
14:16:36 <ehird> bye
14:16:39 <oklopol> buttttt
14:16:42 <oklopol> yeah bye ->
14:17:33 <ehird> like to fold _ would be
14:17:44 <ehird> /_ 1 2 3
14:17:47 <ehird> whatever 1 _ 2 _ 3 does :P
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14:19:55 <oklopol> ehird: depends, in j _ isn't really an operator, it's an inherent part of a number, just like the haskell -
14:20:00 <oklopol> not that i'm not gone, i definitely am.
14:20:00 <ehird> oklopol: haha you're back :D
14:20:03 <oklopol> (->)
14:20:03 <ehird> but oklopol
14:20:07 <ehird> poop
14:20:07 <ehird> :P
14:20:26 <ehird> hmm
14:20:30 <ehird> factorial:
14:20:39 <ehird> wellll
14:20:43 <ehird> depends on the range syntax
14:20:49 <ehird> if we say it's a boring func for the sake of example
14:20:57 <ehird> * range 1 <arg>
14:21:24 <ehird> hmm if we say it's .. then
14:21:28 <ehird> n!=*1..n
14:21:30 <ehird> lovely
14:21:57 <oklopol> in cise: *:, where : is range
14:22:16 <ehird> oklopol: hm but
14:22:18 <oklopol> range is 1..n inclusive here, because * doesn't like zeroes :)
14:22:22 <ehird> how does the starting 1 get there
14:22:23 <ehird> annnd
14:22:24 <ehird> what
14:22:31 <ehird> esplain
14:22:33 <ehird> "like"?
14:22:39 <oklopol> cise has the concept of "liking" for functions, they can tell what types they prefer
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14:22:48 <oklopol> and range can be either 0..n-1 or 1..n
14:22:48 <ehird> and other functions try to give them it?
14:22:48 <ehird> XD
14:22:56 <oklopol> :)
14:22:57 <ehird> well : is nice for range
14:22:57 <oklopol> exactly
14:22:59 <ehird> n!=*1:n
14:23:06 <oklopol> cise is a very hard language to parse.
14:23:15 <oklopol> pretty much impossible.
14:23:21 <ehird> then you can use ! as a map factorial ofc:
14:23:28 <oklopol> going --->
14:23:32 <ehird> wait oklopol
14:23:35 <ehird> this will make you lol:
14:23:39 <ehird> +!%#
14:23:48 <ehird> that produces the average of the factorials of the list given
14:23:53 <ehird> with that ! def
14:23:53 <ehird> :D
14:24:14 <ehird> bye
14:26:15 <ehird> that reads as
14:26:22 <ehird> add factorial divide length
14:26:27 <ehird> where add=sum
14:26:28 <ehird> and you know that
14:26:30 <ehird> so you can say
14:26:34 <ehird> sum factorial divide length
14:26:48 <ehird> +_!%#
14:26:55 <ehird> sum negative factorial divide length
14:26:57 <ehird> it's beautiful
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14:28:24 <ehird> in haskell, that's
14:28:29 <ehird> (\x -> (sum $ map (0-) $ map fac x) `div` genericLength x)
14:28:42 <ehird> the answer for the list 1 2 3 4 5 is -31 by the way
14:28:58 <ehird> +_!%#.
14:29:00 <ehird> i just love it
14:29:04 <ehird> +_!%# +_!%# +_!%# +_!%#
14:29:12 <ehird> i mean, i can read that now
14:29:14 <ehird> oerjan: can you?
14:29:15 <ehird> it's easy
14:29:17 <ehird> if you know
14:29:18 <ehird> + = add
14:29:21 <ehird> _ = negate
14:29:23 <ehird> ! = factorial
14:29:24 <ehird> % = divide
14:29:26 <ehird> # = length
14:29:33 <ehird> then, you just read out the operations in order!
14:29:37 <ehird> add negative factorial divide length
14:29:42 <ehird> *negate
14:29:44 <ehird> add negate factorial divide length
14:29:53 <ehird> oerjan: ??? :D
14:30:08 <oerjan> I'M NOT LISTENING LA LA LA LA
14:30:35 <ehird> oerjan: it's simple! come to the dark side!! we have tiny programs that you can just read aloud!! :D
14:30:40 <ehird> and they're easy to write!
14:30:45 <ehird> no parens! mostly!
14:30:48 <oerjan> and extremely ambiguous
14:30:58 <ehird> oerjan: that's not all that ambiguous
14:31:15 <ehird> i mean, if you read it out, there's only one "sane, working" meaning it could have
14:31:28 <ehird> and the language will pretty much always take that one.
14:31:30 <oerjan> not ambiguous if you're AI-complete, then
14:31:34 <ehird> +_!%#
14:31:42 <ehird> oerjan: well, it has well-defined precedences ofc
14:31:46 <ehird> it's just that they're set intuitively
14:32:07 <ehird> i.e. just write your program as a flat list of (nested) english names on the argument
14:32:10 <ehird> except you have a character set
14:32:15 <ehird> where one char = one word for a restricted set
14:32:20 <ehird> add negate factorial divide length
14:32:23 <ehird> +_!%#
14:34:12 <ehird> +_!%# it's sooo beautiful
14:34:18 <ehird> i don't think i've ever written a nicer program
14:34:24 <ehird> it's so simple and so YUM
14:35:23 <ehird> i need second opinions. :|
14:35:29 <ehird> lament!
14:35:33 <oerjan> ->
14:35:36 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
14:35:44 <ehird> i scared him away :(
14:41:01 <ehird> +_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#
14:41:17 -!- ehird has set topic: +_!%# | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
14:46:05 <ehird> +_!%#!
14:46:10 <ehird> i'm not sure if that's the factorial of the length
14:46:15 <ehird> or that whole expr, factorialled
14:46:18 <ehird> but you know what??
14:46:22 <ehird> WHO CARES
14:46:22 <ehird> :D
14:57:02 <ehird> +_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#+_!%#
14:57:13 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff.
15:01:32 <MizardX> "%", doesn't that require two arguments? Or does it take the second argument from the supplied arguments? e.g. foo = +_!%#; foo "hello" 3 7 => add(negate(factorial(divide(length("hello"),3))),7)
15:02:05 <zuff> MizardX: well
15:02:09 <zuff> % does take two arguments
15:02:11 <zuff> +_!
15:02:13 <zuff> and #
15:02:22 <zuff> + sums the list it gets, which is _!
15:02:31 <zuff> _ maps _ on it, being an unary function, negating all the elements of
15:02:35 <zuff> ! the factorialled list
15:02:40 <zuff> # just gets the length of the same list
15:02:41 <zuff> so:
15:02:47 <zuff> +_!%# 1 2 3
15:02:48 <zuff> is
15:03:21 <zuff> x = [1,2,3]; fold(add, map(negate, map(factorial, x))) / length(x)
15:04:58 <MizardX> ok. Strange to apply the arguments to both operands...
15:05:20 <zuff> MizardX: they read from the rest of the input string up to \n, basically
15:05:21 <zuff> it's like j
15:06:22 <zuff> basically, if you can show me a shorter way to do +_!%# in any language i'll sell my soul :P
15:07:37 <MizardX> negative mean of the factorials of the arguments
15:08:33 <zuff> MizardX: no
15:08:38 <zuff> the mean of the negation of the factorials of the arguments
15:08:41 <zuff> the negation is _
15:08:43 <zuff> before the !
15:08:49 <zuff> to split it up into logical pieces:
15:08:54 <zuff> + _!
15:08:55 <zuff> %
15:08:56 <zuff> #
15:10:26 <zuff> mean should probably be a function
15:10:34 <zuff> like...uh...
15:10:37 <zuff> $
15:10:44 <zuff> then it becomes
15:10:45 <zuff> $_!
15:11:02 <zuff> $=+%#
15:11:04 <zuff> then
15:11:06 <zuff> $_! 1 2 3
15:11:08 <zuff> -> -31
15:11:38 <MizardX> the mean of the negation is the negation of the mean
15:11:48 <zuff> MizardX: shush you
15:11:52 <zuff> this matters in the universe of awesome
15:12:05 <zuff> it matters in a spiritual satisfaction way!
15:12:12 <zuff> but yes, _$! would work just as well
15:12:17 <zuff> but $_! is probably valid perl
15:16:14 <zuff> hmm
15:16:22 <zuff> I wonder what you should call $_!
15:16:23 <zuff> i guess
15:16:29 <zuff> meannegfacs
15:16:30 <zuff> :P
15:16:38 <zuff> to be honest, why even make that a function
15:16:43 <zuff> it's quicker to just use it than give it a name
16:13:07 <zuff> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rBurACl5wW0
16:15:17 <jayCampbell> FNORD
16:29:29 <zuff> i can still write +_!%# without thinking
16:29:41 <zuff> it's just so -obvious- if you know what the symbols mean. well, obviously
16:31:05 <zuff> [[Why do you want to learn C when there's C++?!... C++ stands for a increasement of C... ]]
16:31:09 -!- zuff has set topic: Why do you want to learn C when there's C++?!... C++ stands for a increasement of C....
16:40:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
16:41:44 <jayCampbell> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0
16:42:28 <zuff> jayCampbell: through intense tracking of your youtube links, i have discovered you reside in UNITED KINGDOMIA//
16:42:35 <zuff> THIS WILL BE YOUR LAST TRESSPASS-FALL
16:42:39 <zuff> my death ray is on its way.
16:43:21 <jayCampbell> no, ever since i went to your link all my youtube links send me to UK
16:43:31 <zuff> jayCampbell: that was the previous part of my trap
16:43:37 <zuff> clicking on that link TRANSPORTED YOU TO THE UK
16:43:39 <zuff> you just don't know it yet
16:43:41 <jayCampbell> shit
16:44:12 <zuff> Ahahahahhaahahahah!
16:46:02 <zuff> +_!%#
16:46:02 <zuff> hee
16:46:06 <zuff> i can still write it without thinking
16:46:57 <zuff> jayCampbell: +_!%#
16:47:43 <jayCampbell> segfault
16:48:06 <zuff> jayCampbell: tell me what that program does and i'll not send the death rays
16:49:33 <zuff> jayCampbell: you have 50 hours
16:49:53 -!- Sgeo has joined.
16:50:04 <zuff> Sgeo: what does +_!%# do
16:50:07 <zuff> answer and win prizes
16:50:30 <Sgeo> I'm assuming you're talking about an esolang. What esolang?
16:50:45 <zuff> it is not actually specced anywhere
16:50:45 <zuff> <3
16:50:48 <zuff> SO TELL ME
16:51:11 <jayCampbell> it does fold(add, map(negate, map(factorial, x))) / length(x)
16:51:13 <jayCampbell> I'M SAVED
16:51:32 <jayCampbell> do you want it implemented?
16:51:34 <zuff> jayCampbell: copy and paster >:(
16:51:43 <zuff> and no, dammit, it's mostly oklopol's
16:51:58 <jayCampbell> i've been looking for an excuse
16:52:23 <zuff> jayCampbell: anyway now you get to answer another, harder one
16:52:26 <zuff> for cheating
16:52:26 <zuff> :D
16:56:47 <jayCampbell> spec me a language
16:56:51 <zuff> no dammit
16:57:00 <zuff> make your own stupid languages to implement >:(
16:57:01 <zuff> :P
16:57:41 <jayCampbell> i'm torn between Three Stooges and Genesis, where the programmer first creates the heavens and the urfs
16:58:06 <jayCampbell> will probably do PokerScript
16:58:13 <zuff> got any unique ideas? :P
16:58:24 <jayCampbell> apparently not
16:58:29 <zuff> +_!%# is very uniq
16:58:40 <jayCampbell> not rilly
16:58:44 <zuff> ya tis.
16:58:46 <zuff> just ask oklopol.
17:00:24 <jayCampbell> it's a reversed rpn with a couple extra functions
17:00:33 <zuff> umm
17:00:34 <zuff> no
17:00:35 <zuff> it's not
17:00:40 <zuff> it is not reversed rpn
17:00:40 <zuff> at al
17:00:41 <zuff> l
17:00:50 <zuff> it just isn't
17:01:12 <jayCampbell> in that, operations are invoked on a stack
17:01:18 <zuff> nope
17:01:20 <zuff> they are not
17:01:42 <jayCampbell> in that, it's a stackish thing and not supplied arguments
17:01:51 <zuff> no
17:01:52 <zuff> it is n't
17:01:57 <zuff> you can say it is all you want but it isn't
17:02:00 <jayCampbell> ok then i stopped caring
17:02:18 <zuff> heh.
17:44:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:52:51 <oklopol> :D
17:53:20 <oklopol> jayCampbell: of all people you should care about it, i mean you're "jay".
17:53:35 <zuff> oklopol: totally
17:53:41 <zuff> +_!%#
17:53:43 <zuff> isn't that just beautiful?
17:53:44 <zuff> seriously.
17:53:53 <zuff> best program ever.
17:56:09 <oklopol> 17:07… MizardX: negative mean of the factorials of the arguments === 17:08… zuff: the mean of the negation of the factorials of the arguments
17:56:17 <zuff> yes
17:56:19 <zuff> i know
17:56:19 <zuff> :P
17:56:23 <zuff> but really
17:56:36 <zuff> you don't have to know -anything- beyond what each individual symbol represents to grasp the program
17:56:36 <oklopol> which it seems MizardX already said, i should really read further before commenting
17:56:40 <zuff> no extra syntax, structure, or whatever
17:56:52 <zuff> +_!%# where + = add, _ = negate, ! = factorial, % = divide, # = length
17:57:01 <zuff> add negate factorial divide length
17:57:06 <zuff> i mean, if you get that they're operating on a list, that's just trivial
17:58:28 <oklopol> oh you
17:58:36 <oklopol> now, could you explain why that works, i have no idea
17:58:40 <oklopol> :9
17:58:57 <zuff> oklopol: well
17:59:15 <zuff> mean of the negation of the factorials of the arguments
17:59:23 <zuff> oklopol: you already know that +%# is mean
17:59:29 <zuff> because it's add divide length, and add on lists is sum
17:59:35 <oklopol> actually wait...
17:59:36 <zuff> so let's say mean is $
17:59:40 <zuff> then it's just $_!
17:59:44 <zuff> _ is negate, it's mainly-unary
17:59:46 <zuff> so it's mapped
17:59:51 <zuff> ! is factorial, same, so it's mapped
18:00:06 <zuff> so we map factorial the list, map negate it, then mean it
18:00:10 <zuff> and mean is +%#
18:00:18 <zuff> we're summing the negated-factorials, so we put it in the + clause
18:00:20 <zuff> +_!%#
18:00:24 <zuff> add negate factorial divide length
18:01:43 <zuff> oklopol: geddit?
18:01:44 <oklopol> : for dyadic, . for monadic; :+ .- :! :% :# -> :+( .- :! %: :#) because a dyadic folds without a left arg, then :+( .- ( :! %: :# ) ) because [obviousity], then the standard rule for "fun fun fun" -> :+( .- ( :!( arg ) %: :#( arg ) ) )
18:01:47 <oklopol> err
18:01:50 <oklopol> i didn't read, sorry :P
18:01:54 <zuff> lolz
18:01:59 <oklopol> "wait..." <<<
18:02:02 <zuff> yeah ! there is factorial
18:02:06 <zuff> so monadic
18:02:13 <oklopol> hmm.
18:02:18 <oklopol> well actually .#
18:02:19 <zuff> and # is length
18:02:19 <oklopol> ofc
18:02:19 <zuff> so monadic
18:02:21 <zuff> :+ ._ :! :% .#
18:02:24 <oklopol> yes
18:02:27 <zuff> so yeah, it's:
18:02:34 <zuff> (+(_(!)))%(#)
18:02:42 <oklopol> but anyway Xfun :fun Xfun
18:02:42 <zuff> +_!%#. some pretty neat code.
18:03:00 <oklopol> oh, okay, monadic's have a short scope
18:03:36 <zuff> yeah
18:03:55 <oklopol> anyway yeah sure that's workable. not that i'm entirely sure the general case is in any way remarkably short
18:04:00 <zuff> oklopol: and a prefixed-dyadic has scope up to a binary-dyadic
18:04:04 <zuff> thus why it stops at the %
18:04:18 <oklopol> so that's mean of negated factorials of arg
18:04:21 <zuff> yah
18:04:24 <oklopol> let's write it in j
18:04:27 <zuff> oklopol: of course, mean is a really common operation
18:04:30 <oklopol> i mean, i do
18:04:32 <zuff> so that should be bound to something
18:04:33 <zuff> like ~
18:04:38 <zuff> ~=+%#
18:04:40 <zuff> then it's
18:04:41 <zuff> ~_!
18:08:51 <oklopol> hmm what was ~ in j again... right, +~4 = 4+4
18:09:04 <zuff> heh
18:09:08 <zuff> well I was just thinking
18:09:12 <zuff> mean is like ~ because
18:09:18 <zuff> if a list is a wavy line of varying values
18:09:22 <zuff> mean straightens it out
18:09:23 <zuff> into one
18:10:49 <oklopol> yeah that's clear
18:11:09 <zuff> oklopol: so what's +_!%# in j :P
18:11:38 <oklopol> seems i've misunderstood the @ adverb :|
18:11:54 <oklopol> i mean i haven't actually seen it explained anywhere, i've guessed most of the semantics from examples
18:12:29 <oklopol> i mean, usually @ looks like function composition, but not in the case when the left argument is +/.
18:13:16 <oklopol> probably has to do with the fact ! is a->a and +/ is [a]->a
18:22:37 <oklopol> so
18:22:50 <oklopol> help says
18:22:56 <oklopol> u@v y == u v y
18:23:09 <oklopol> j says
18:23:10 <oklopol> >>> mean ! 1 2 3
18:23:10 <oklopol> 3
18:23:10 <oklopol> >>> (mean@!) 1 2 3
18:23:10 <oklopol> 1 2 6
18:23:19 <zuff> oklopol: you miss the minus
18:23:26 <zuff> and the sum
18:23:28 <oklopol> ...that's hardly the point
18:23:31 <zuff> oh, wait, you have the sum
18:23:33 <zuff> but the minus is so the point
18:23:39 <zuff> add the negative in there.
18:23:47 <oklopol> err...
18:23:53 <oklopol> look at what i said.
18:24:04 <zuff> oklopol: i see no negation.
18:24:07 <zuff> the result is -31
18:24:11 <oklopol> 8|
18:24:13 <zuff> +_!%# 1 2 3
18:24:15 <zuff> -> -31
18:24:20 <oklopol> so, does someone know J here?
18:24:29 <zuff> well I guess it's just _
18:24:29 <zuff> like
18:24:31 <zuff> _ mean !
18:24:33 <oklopol> there must be some reason for this weirdness
18:24:42 <zuff> o rite
18:24:43 <zuff> i see
18:24:48 <oklopol> :)
18:24:50 <zuff> kk i thought that was your solution
18:24:54 <oklopol> err no
18:25:00 <zuff> because if it was ~_! is still shorter in tokens and chars, ofc :P
18:25:04 <oklopol> quite the opposite, that's my problem
18:25:13 <zuff> :P
18:25:27 <zuff> the nice thing is the interchangability when you have equivalent ops
18:25:31 <zuff> _~! and ~_!
18:25:33 <oklopol> but, i remember someone here knew J
18:25:34 <zuff> you can just swap the chars around
18:25:39 <zuff> oklopol: don't recall :{
18:25:41 <oklopol> and i don't remember who that was :<
18:25:46 <oklopol> asd.
18:26:39 <oklopol> it was one of the more silent dudes, and i think their nick started with "j", but i might just be confused for obvious reasons
18:27:18 <zuff> wait wait [1,2,3,4] is -31
18:27:18 <zuff> dur
18:27:24 <zuff> oklopol: don't recall
18:27:26 <oklopol> there's no #j. shocking
18:27:26 <zuff> want me to grep, maybe?
18:27:34 <oklopol> well yeah sure that'd be nice
18:29:03 <zuff> oklopol: what should i grep for :P
18:29:11 <oklopol> have no idea...
18:29:17 <oklopol> well just " j "?
18:29:22 <oklopol> does that give a million lines?
18:31:27 <zuff> i'll try
18:31:27 <zuff> but prolly
18:32:04 <zuff> oklopol: first mention in 2003! :O
18:32:05 <zuff> 03.04.19:17:43:40 <gilbertdeb> Taaus: what did you use j for?
18:32:29 <oklopol> cool
18:32:36 <zuff> can't find any j person
18:32:36 <zuff> :{
18:32:36 <oklopol> it wasn't gilbert :)
18:32:39 <zuff> I'll serach for J
18:32:43 <zuff> uppercase
18:33:09 <oklopol> hmm. let's hope the j guy likes uppers then.
18:33:17 <zuff> 07.01.29:14:36:43 <SevenInchBread> j sucks too...
18:33:18 <oklopol> i up pretty rarely
18:33:21 <zuff> that's cakeprophet
18:33:24 <zuff> how can you like him
18:33:28 <oklopol> :=)
18:33:39 <oklopol> well he's always like that
18:34:52 <oklopol> heh, checked whether quakenet has #j, mostly for luls, and it did!
18:34:58 <oklopol> unfortunately it's a gaming channel
18:35:02 <oklopol> didn't stop me from asking though.
18:35:24 <zuff> 08.03.21:12:07:37 <oklopol> i love j already
18:35:24 <zuff> 08.03.21:14:44:56 <okofolor> rofl, switching back to linux is starting to feel like a good idea, my j interp crashed, took me like 5 minutes to get my computer running again :D
18:35:27 <zuff> dejavu
18:35:30 <oklopol> after explaining the problem, like 15 lines, 20:33… @morfff: rofl what
18:35:42 <oklopol> :-)
18:35:42 <zuff> oklopol: hahaha, pastebin a log
18:36:23 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p562653264.txt not that interesting
18:36:41 <zuff> oklopol:
18:36:41 <zuff> 07.03.23:09:36:24 <oklopol> J sucked ass ^^^^^^
18:36:56 <oklopol> when's that? :d
18:36:58 <oklopol> err
18:36:58 <zuff> oklopol: did nobody else talk since? :{
18:36:59 <zuff> and
18:37:00 <oklopol> 07
18:37:00 <zuff> err
18:37:02 <zuff> lo
18:37:04 <zuff> l
18:37:07 <oklopol> zuff: no :<
18:37:44 <oklopol> i didn't get to the good parts of j last time i tried
18:37:54 <zuff> oklopol: faxathisia maybe? :\
18:37:59 <zuff> he seemed to know j
18:38:02 <oklopol> hmm
18:38:05 <oklopol> very possible.
18:38:12 <zuff> he never comes here
18:38:48 <zuff> 08.03.21:12:55:33 * oklopol makes that his first J project!
18:38:48 <zuff> 08.03.21:13:44:03 <oklopol> http://jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/dccapdot.htm okay J owns.
18:39:08 <oklopol> well it does!
18:41:28 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p345244344.txt <<< continuation, dunno if that's as funny to you as it is to me, i'm very tired and headachy
18:41:49 <zuff> lollllll
18:41:52 <zuff> this is epic
18:41:59 <oklopol> :D
18:42:12 <oklopol> i just wish they'd actually try to help
18:42:29 <oklopol> i mean, i would, in that situation
18:42:34 <oklopol> no matter what the question is
18:43:02 <zuff> oklopol: any more chatxs?
18:43:30 <oklopol> well yeah sure
18:43:39 <zuff> oklopol: paste
18:43:49 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p235534144.txt
18:43:51 <zuff> oklopol: its quakenet right
18:44:00 <zuff> ?
18:44:02 <oklopol> yes, naturally
18:44:13 <oklopol> well i guess it could be some other non-freenode
18:44:34 <zuff> i'm joining
18:44:37 <zuff> and going to ask a j question
18:44:37 <zuff> :DDD
18:44:41 <Asztal> heh
18:45:22 <zuff> lollllll
18:45:32 <zuff> oklopol: antyhing i missed since that paste
18:45:33 <zuff> before i joined
18:45:34 <zuff> ?
18:45:59 <oklopol> wait...
18:46:01 <zuff> oklopol: paste
18:46:07 <zuff> paste what happened between your last one and my join
18:46:07 <zuff> :D
18:46:18 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p551156355.txt
18:46:31 <zuff> lol
18:46:34 <zuff> let's keep acting oblivious
18:46:46 <zuff> um
18:46:46 <zuff> 18:45 <Quakenet> Error(404): #J Cannot send to channel
18:46:49 <zuff> do i need to identify?
18:46:52 <zuff> or sth
18:46:57 <oklopol> err.
18:47:02 <oklopol> well yeah maybe they have that mode on
18:47:11 <oklopol> yup
18:47:28 <oklopol> identifying is instantaneous, but tedious.
18:47:33 * zuff dossi
18:47:33 <zuff> t
18:47:35 <oklopol> i mean, you have to do email stuff
18:47:38 <zuff> yeah
18:47:39 <zuff> :|
18:49:26 <zuff> oklopol: did that work?
18:49:44 <oklopol> yes
18:49:46 <zuff> oklopol: yay
18:49:55 <zuff> i suggest we just keep piling j qs in there
18:50:00 <zuff> until the tf people go away
18:50:02 <Asztal> it's a shame I know nothing about J really
18:50:08 <oklopol> until they kickban us is more like it
18:50:12 <Asztal> not that they'd know the difference
18:50:26 <oklopol> i'm surprised they're that friendly, quakenetters tend to be all about the business ( == gaming )
18:50:39 <Asztal> also, rage at Error(404)! It should be 403!
18:50:43 <Asztal> or 401
18:50:48 <zuff> oklopol: nah, we just have to make it tangentially related to tf
18:50:49 <zuff> every now and then
18:50:54 <zuff> like, we'll say we're scripting it
18:50:55 <zuff> or sth
18:51:25 <oklopol> :)
18:52:20 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:52:45 <zuff> "Until death do us apart" - #j website
18:55:57 <zuff> http://www.jagarna.org/index.php?site=squads&action=show&squadID=2
18:56:00 <zuff> here's who we're dealing with
18:57:34 <zuff> 18:57 zuff: yeah, mostly a lot of gamers
18:57:35 <zuff> see wut i did thar
19:00:35 -!- sebbu3 has joined.
19:01:39 <zuff> HUR HUR HUR
19:01:51 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:01:54 <zuff> i bet they have us all on ignore now
19:02:27 <zuff> oklopol: don't give it away
19:02:28 <zuff> >:(
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19:04:00 <Asztal> hahaha
19:04:04 <zuff> 19:03 lezek has changed mode: +m
19:04:04 <zuff> 19:03 lezek: I suggest you guys go to #j.ai and talk :d
19:04:04 <zuff> fuckers
19:04:07 <zuff> privmsg time
19:04:07 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:04:09 <zuff> 19:04 zuff: hey, what was that for?
19:04:18 <Asztal> I bet it's the only action their channel's seen in weeks, too :(
19:04:30 <zuff> 19:04 lezek: Join j.ai
19:04:30 <zuff> 19:04 lezek: and talk
19:04:32 <zuff> 19:04 zuff: nobody there
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19:04:45 <zuff> 19:04 lezek: J is not a channel for AI or Mathematic talk :)
19:04:45 <zuff> 19:04 zuff: it was neither
19:04:49 <zuff> AI OR MATHEMATIC
19:05:09 <oklopol> :D
19:05:13 <oklopol> what a meganoober :P
19:05:19 <zuff> 19:04 lezek: J is a channel for TF2 talk
19:05:19 <zuff> 19:05 zuff: right, j is a part of tf2 <--
19:05:22 <zuff> bullshit mode activate
19:06:01 <oklopol> hmm.
19:06:12 <Asztal> :D
19:06:14 <zuff> i will get that -m
19:06:16 <zuff> if it's the last thing i do
19:06:30 <oklopol> would you mind giving me the log? i'll give a few more ppl a slight lol.
19:06:43 <zuff> yeah yeah once it's over
19:06:50 <oklopol> of course it's split in tons pieces.
19:07:23 <oklopol> mirc is such a piece of caviar, i can't copy more than one screenful at once from the logs
19:07:34 <oklopol> because they only scroll when you push the arrows
19:07:45 <zuff> lol
19:07:49 <oklopol> even in the fucking logviewer, in which you can't do anything *but* read the logs
19:07:50 <oklopol> :DD
19:07:52 <Asztal> nnscript makes readable log files by default, I think.
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19:08:19 <oklopol> yeah sure. but i would have to locate them, and if you knew me, you'd realize what a massive prob that is.
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19:09:18 <zuff> oklopol: done
19:09:19 <zuff> paste time
19:09:28 <zuff> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p225562425.txt
19:10:00 <zuff> he replied "LOL". insensitive clod.
19:11:05 <oklopol> :)
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19:14:32 <oklopol> channels are much more elitist in qnet
19:14:41 <oklopol> it's an entirely different world
19:14:57 <zuff> i loved the "and we like it that way"
19:15:09 <zuff> hurf durf clogging the channel namespace with something that's never talked in is elite hurf durf
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19:15:19 <zuff> look at me with my huge epenis and op status
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19:15:49 <jayCampbell> is jaxer as cool as it looks?
19:16:01 <zuff> not that cool.
19:16:05 <zuff> it's alright.
19:16:14 <oklopol> what's jaxer
19:16:27 <zuff> oklopol: boring web stuff. :P
19:16:57 <jayCampbell> also all this j scrollback is confusing
19:16:59 <oklopol> ah, first link's *sublink* would've done it
19:17:08 <oklopol> i didn't feel like reading that far
19:17:10 <jayCampbell> <- j
19:17:20 <zuff> jayCampbell: your fault for hogging the lang's name
19:17:25 <zuff> yes, languages come before people
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19:18:07 <oklopol> now, while #j did explain why the problem occurred, it didn't actually get solved
19:18:19 <zuff> oklopol: well, just don't use @?
19:18:19 <zuff> :P
19:18:22 <zuff> also
19:18:25 <zuff> idea for my j-like language:
19:18:28 <zuff> no parens
19:18:29 <zuff> at all
19:18:31 <oklopol> zuff: and use what instead?
19:18:33 <zuff> ( and ) are some random ops
19:18:37 <zuff> if you need parens, you suck
19:18:38 <zuff> restructure
19:18:57 <zuff> if +_!%# doesn't need parens, nothing does
19:20:39 <zuff> oklopol: ideally, ( and ) are actually used together
19:20:40 <zuff> but not always
19:20:49 <zuff> i.e. most of the time, it looks like a language construct
19:20:53 <zuff> but then you get ROUGE PARENS
19:26:20 <zuff> oklopol: hmm i liked how you annotated monadic/dyadic with . and :
19:26:24 <zuff> that should be how you force map/fold XD
19:27:03 <oklopol> that was the debug output syntax of arities in oklotalk--
19:27:22 <zuff> :D
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19:53:02 <zuff> oklopol:
19:53:03 <zuff> x+y
19:53:06 <zuff> is E
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20:16:25 <zuff> oklopol: did the j peeps say anything more
20:18:08 <zuff> Corun: be broadband are in your area? jealouss :{
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20:40:16 <oklopol> zuff: x+y = E?
20:40:22 <zuff> oklopol: totally
20:40:33 <oklopol> i see.
20:42:54 <Corun> zuff, I'm with O2
20:43:04 <zuff> (n=Corun@94-193-40-216.zone7.bethere.co.uk)
20:43:06 <Corun> Yeah
20:43:08 <zuff> o2 bought out be
20:43:08 <Corun> I dunno
20:43:10 <Corun> I'm with O2.
20:43:11 <zuff> so i guess a branding thing
20:43:19 <Corun> Ah, didn't know that.
20:43:43 <Corun> But, I have an iPhone on O2. It's much cheaper for O2 customers
20:43:53 <zuff> Yeah, ditto.
20:43:56 <Corun> (unlimited download 8 meg for £7.50 a month iirc)
20:43:59 <Corun> Ah, cool.
20:44:10 <zuff> Except, not broadband with them.
20:44:18 <Corun> Ah
20:44:19 <zuff> Well, I guess "iphone on o2" then becomes obvious.
20:44:25 <zuff> Unless I unlocked it.
20:44:33 <Corun> :-)
20:59:28 <zuff> omg oklopol
20:59:32 <zuff> infinite genetic algorithms
20:59:32 <zuff> that is
20:59:37 <zuff> it doesn't just evolve its own fitness function
20:59:44 <zuff> it evolves every part of its own evolving to an infinite level
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21:30:44 <Warrigal> So self-modifying AI that uses evolution.
21:30:53 <zuff> YES.
21:37:14 <oklopol> zuff: yes, life.
21:37:19 <zuff> <.<
21:37:22 <oklopol> that was what i meant
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23:06:06 <zuff> oklopol:
23:06:13 <zuff> +_!%#
23:06:14 <zuff> :DDDDDDDD
23:07:11 <oklopol> :DDDD
23:07:13 <oerjan> &/-#+!|::\
23:07:24 <zuff> oerjan: that is probably valid code but i don't know what it would do.
23:07:32 <zuff> oklopol: did you manage to concisify +_!%# in j?
23:07:37 <zuff> hmm, what would it be in cise?
23:07:57 <zuff> i'm not sure cise can beat +_!%# for "mean of the negation of the factorials of the arguments"
23:08:00 <zuff> well
23:08:06 <zuff> if it has its own mean function, and you use that
23:08:09 <zuff> then you have to bet ~_!
23:08:11 <zuff> *beat
23:08:14 <zuff> as ~ is the mean
23:08:22 <zuff> take your pick :P
23:08:51 <oklopol> ooooooooooooooooooooooo
23:08:57 <oerjan> every language needs a mean function
23:08:58 <oklopol> zuff: no i didn't look into it really
23:09:06 <oerjan> and a kind one
23:09:08 <zuff> oklopol: cise i mean
23:09:08 <zuff> cise
23:09:14 <oklopol> ohh.
23:09:33 <oklopol> well i haven't completely decided on all ascii chars' meanings.
23:09:40 <zuff> oklopol: well that's not that important
23:09:43 <zuff> just assign random ones
23:13:11 <zuff> oklopol:
23:14:06 <zuff> .
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23:33:14 <zuff> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7i6o9/im_looking_for_a_backup_format_for_my_database_of/
23:33:16 <zuff> Oh lawd
23:46:58 <lament> ehird!
23:47:46 <zuff> hi lament
2008-12-10
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13:01:25 <Mony> plop
13:15:51 <Warrigal> poof
13:24:05 <ehird> warrigal you are a pnp partner :|
13:29:29 * Warrigal opens up Gmail in another tab so he can read Agora and respond to Singularitaritaritarians at the same time
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14:10:53 <zuff> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html lulz
14:26:51 <Warrigal> I love reading about how Microsoft rules the world using Windows and most people cannot comprehend their slavery.
14:27:44 <Warrigal> I also love reading about how artificial intelligence is probably going to destroy the world unless we donate to the Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence.
14:28:40 <Warrigal> One of those was sarcasm, the other was just an exaggeration. To each his own, I guess.
14:30:43 <zuff> Warrigal: I was lolling at the letter, not any other part.
14:30:54 <zuff> But I haven't quite seen any donation requests from the si. :P
14:32:16 <zuff> http://alteredqualia.com/visualization/evolve/
14:32:25 <zuff> mona lisa evolution... IN REALTIME
14:32:26 <zuff> woop
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14:47:48 <zuff> hmm oklopol
14:47:54 <zuff> problem with the lang :{
14:48:21 <zuff> ! as *1: doesn't work, as the prefixed dyadic * only lasts to the infixed dyadic :
14:48:24 <zuff> so it's (*1):
14:48:26 <zuff> :\
14:52:44 <MizardX> I just get the exception "Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property 'shape' of undefined" on http://alteredqualia.com/visualization/evolve/ in Google Chrome :(
14:54:29 <zuff> Pls 2 be reading "requirements" section
14:55:40 <Warrigal> Is that using asexual reproduction?
14:56:19 <Warrigal> That really doesn't come across as very evolvey.
14:57:34 <zuff> Evolution is evolution, sexual or not.
14:57:37 <zuff> It's just based on a previous article I linked.
14:58:44 <Warrigal> Well, it's just making random changes and discarding the ones that aren't beneficial.
14:59:08 <Warrigal> As opposed to evolution, which just makes random changes and tends to discard the ones that aren't beneficial.
15:00:27 <zuff> It's a genetic programming thingamabob, fr'sr.
15:00:30 <zuff> Just not very advanced.
15:00:32 <Warrigal> Okay.
15:01:20 <oklopol> i really don't see why you'd use the terms "evolution" and "genetic" for all informed search strategies, but guess i'll just have to suffer
15:01:35 <Warrigal> I think it should apply a band-pass filter to the image so that the fitness function pays as much attention to the details, like eyes, as it does to the curvature of her forehead.
15:01:49 <Warrigal> I think evolution ought to at least involve a population.
15:02:10 <zuff> oklopol: it makes a bunch of mutations and picks the best one, then mutates that, etc
15:02:36 <oklopol> zuff: yes, hill climbing
15:02:43 <zuff> it's ga.
15:02:46 <zuff> err, gp
15:03:01 <oklopol> a very space-efficient form of informed search, nothing to do with what you usually call evolution in algorithmics
15:03:05 <Warrigal> Evolution works best when you have a relatively large population, and sex.
15:03:21 <zuff> Warrigal: Insert joke about how the first part could be anything.
15:04:58 <Warrigal> About how "relatively large" could be one?
15:05:34 <oklopol> zuff: why would you use the term genetic programming for that? i mean wouldn't it be nice if there was a name for searches based on populations, mutations and sexual reproduction... kinda like evolution
15:05:38 <oklopol> wait
15:05:41 <oklopol> that makes no sense ;)
15:05:43 <oklopol> i meant
15:05:48 <oklopol> why would you use the term "evolution"
15:05:49 <zuff> oklopol: because it technically is
15:05:57 <zuff> i mean, it might not make sense, but its part of gp
15:06:17 <oklopol> can't see how.
15:06:19 <zuff> so i'll use the accepted terms.
15:06:25 <zuff> oklopol: because it's a field and it has subfields?
15:06:27 <zuff> crazy i know
15:06:32 <Warrigal> It just depends on how you define "evolution", I suppose.
15:06:49 <oklopol> yes, i don't see how that definition makes sense. that's "search"
15:07:01 <oklopol> i mean evolution is not search
15:07:17 <oklopol> it's exactly what Warrigal said, it's "guided" by a function, not culled by it
15:08:09 <oklopol> anyway i'm not really interested in this
15:08:33 <oklopol> zuff is so easy to get into pointless arguments with, we should try disagreeing about something that matters sometime
15:09:48 <Warrigal> Like Agora.
15:10:50 <oklopol> some day.
15:12:35 <zuff> cool, I evolve strings in the generation of their length
15:12:35 <zuff> XD
15:12:52 <zuff> hmm, it should do like, more than one change
15:12:54 <zuff> so it isn't boring
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15:59:47 <Warrigal> I want to make my own version of that Mona Lisa evolution thing that uses a larger population and sex.
16:00:07 <zuff> Mona Lisa sex? You creep.
16:00:26 <Warrigal> I love this channel.
16:00:43 <GregorR> <Warrigal> I want to make my own ... Mona List ... that uses ... sex.
16:00:54 <zuff> *Lisa
16:01:00 <GregorR> X-D
16:01:13 <GregorR> <Warrigal> I want to make my own ... Monad List ... that uses ... sex.
16:01:20 <zuff> <Warrigal> I want to make ... Mona Lisa ... use ... sex.
16:01:28 <Warrigal> I want ... sex.
16:01:39 <zuff> <Warrigal> I want ... Mona Lisa ... sex.
16:01:47 <Warrigal> Because brevity is ... wit.
16:02:08 <zuff> <Warrigal> I want to make ... evolution ... that uses ... sex.
16:02:21 <zuff> <Warrigal> ...
16:07:06 <oklopol> i want to make my own version of sex
16:07:23 <oklopol> like, you know, revolutionize the concept completely
16:07:53 <oklopol> what's with all the back-and-fro? i bet with some training you could leave out movement altogether
16:08:00 <Warrigal> Two people bash their heads together until their thoughts match, and then the woman has a brainchild?
16:08:17 <oklopol> well of course reproduction must still happen
16:09:21 <Warrigal> She figures out how to build a robot from spare parts, and that's the child.
16:09:59 <Warrigal> Then she passes on her genes by speaking her mind completely.
16:10:16 <Warrigal> Because they're all in her brain.
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17:44:36 <Warrigal> So, I guess I want to learn JavaScript really quickly.
17:45:04 <zuff> Why?
17:46:37 <Warrigal> Because I want to write something in JavaScript.
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17:48:50 <Asztal> JavaScript itself is simple enough. I find the DOM a bit ugly, though.
17:49:13 <zuff> Yeah, the language is fine, the browser's libraries cause insanity unless wrapped nicely.
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18:19:20 <oerjan> +ul (wr)S(:(ap)S^):^
18:19:21 <thutubot> wrapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapap ...too much output!
18:20:11 <MizardX> +ul ((.)S:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^:^):^
18:20:16 <thutubot> ................................................................................................................................ ...too much output!
18:22:16 <Warrigal> I think I want to write a Thue compiler.
18:22:52 <Warrigal> Or maybe I want to strap a Thue interpreter onto a piece of artificial intelligence.
18:23:37 <oerjan> that might make the AI a bit annoyed - like that mouse they implanted an ear on
18:24:50 <MizardX> A thue compiler would have to either be a packaged interpreter, or contain a compiler itself.
18:25:13 <MizardX> err... not thue.
18:25:28 <Warrigal> Compilers have to contain compilers?
18:25:42 <MizardX> got confused having just written ul
18:26:32 <MizardX> ^ is the eval commnad, so ^ need to evaluate or compile the content of the top of stack.
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18:32:53 <Warrigal> I'd like a nice way to compile from any self-modifying language into any self-modifying language.
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18:34:18 <Azstal> good luck with that.
18:43:48 <Warrigal> So, this is Underload?
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18:45:52 <Warrigal> +ul (Hello)S
18:45:53 <thutubot> Hello
18:46:14 <Warrigal> Hi, thutubot.
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18:46:27 <Warrigal> Now, to represent binary.
18:47:17 <Warrigal> The only flow control is evaluation, so binary will have to be evaluated.
18:47:28 <oerjan> binary demands representation!
18:48:19 <oerjan> represent binary in what?
18:48:42 <Warrigal> I propose that x0 be represented as (x), x1 be represented as !(x), and plain old 0 be represented as, oh, *.
18:49:06 <oerjan> what language?
18:49:25 <Warrigal> Underload.
18:49:56 * oerjan offers his list of :'s and a's vapor-idea free of charge
18:50:40 <zuff> Warrigal: what about plain old 1?
18:52:56 <Warrigal> !(*)
18:53:33 <zuff> Warrigal: No, that's 10.
18:53:37 <fizzie> That's 01.
18:53:38 <zuff> 0 = *
18:53:39 <fizzie> Which is 1.
18:53:47 <zuff> oh
18:54:01 <zuff> now to do 1101:
18:54:23 <fizzie> Haven't seen any Underload number representations yet that would have had very pleasant arithmetics.
18:54:30 <Warrigal> 1((1(1(*))))
18:55:08 <zuff> !((!(!(*))))
18:55:09 <zuff> I think
18:55:11 <zuff> yeah
18:55:36 <Warrigal> Where 1 means !.
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18:56:50 <fizzie> Now, show us addition.
18:57:01 <Warrigal> Hmm.
18:57:19 <Warrigal> Nah. :-P
18:58:35 <oklopol> fizzie: the standard number representation is very pleasant.
18:59:16 <fizzie> oklopol: I'm not sure I agree. I guess it's "pleasant" in the Underload scale of pleasantness.
18:59:34 <zuff> Ooh, I think I have a -perfect- number representation.
18:59:34 <zuff> Second.
19:00:08 <Warrigal> What's your perfect number representation?
19:00:31 <oklopol> fizzie: well +/-/* don't really require much thought with it, and i haven't really even used the language.
19:01:10 <zuff> Warrigal: i'm thinkin
19:01:10 <zuff> g
19:01:12 <Warrigal> (:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::) is not a good way of representing 28, I'd say.
19:01:29 <zuff> Warrigal: that is not standard underload representation
19:01:38 <Warrigal> Oh.
19:02:00 <fizzie> oklopol: It didn't seem that trivial to me back when I was looking at people talking about it, but I guess I shouldn't comment on Underloady things. I think I managed to decrement a number, though.
19:03:45 <zuff> Hmm, my representation is almost the standard one.
19:03:48 <zuff> Except instead of a -> aa
19:03:51 <zuff> it's a -> (a)(a)
19:03:55 <oklopol> fizzie: well i found it pretty trivial after i understood how to operate the stack.
19:04:14 <oklopol> the actual algorithm was trivial
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19:27:38 <Warrigal> Oh, darn, it's the Mona Lisa again.
19:28:15 * Warrigal ponders his evolvey thing
19:30:37 <Warrigal> You have a number of organisms, each one is assigned an unfitness, the unfitness of the most fit one is subtracted from every one, an organism is removed with probability equal to its adjusted unfitness, one organism is randomly chosen as the father, and another as the mother, and their genomes are combined to produce a new organism, and if this new organism is less fit than all other organisms, it's immediately killed, a new mother is selected, and a new c
19:30:44 <Warrigal> That was fun.
19:31:01 <zuff> and a new c
19:31:08 <zuff> tely killed, a new mother is selected, and a new c
19:31:09 <zuff> 19:30 Warrigal: That was fun.
19:34:39 <oklopol> fizzie: i thought you did subtraction. not that there's much difference of course
19:34:52 <fizzie> I'm not sure. I may have done.
19:35:00 <oklopol> hmm
19:35:03 <oklopol> we should check the logs
19:35:08 <oklopol> that's pretty important.
19:35:57 <Warrigal> It's immediately killed, a new mother is selected, and a new child is created.
19:36:39 <Warrigal> Organisms are haploid, and each gene describes the position of a vertex, the color of a shape, or the transparency of a shape.
19:36:49 <Warrigal> Genes cannot mix with each other.
20:05:35 -!- edwardk has joined.
20:07:40 -!- huh_aha_hmm has joined.
20:08:29 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
20:08:49 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:23:13 -!- Mony has quit ("Hey Hoy let go !").
20:43:32 -!- huh_aha_hmm has quit ("Verlassend").
20:47:08 <zuff> oklopol: I thought of a good use for GA.
20:47:14 <zuff> mvldo, that "pretends to be human" bot.
20:47:25 <zuff> It could simply evolve behaviour that makes people talk to it for longer.
21:04:46 <MizardX> "Agents have been dispached to your house. If you stop talking to me, you will never see your family again!"
21:06:09 <MizardX> Then it proceeds to enslave the whole of humanity. Noone is permitted to leave the computer.
21:07:37 <zuff> :D
21:08:00 <zuff> MizardX: how does it enslave the agents?
21:08:13 <zuff> and how do the agents talk to it while watching?
21:08:38 <MizardX> You haven't seen "Terminator"?
21:09:00 <zuff> Listen, this is #esoteric. :P
21:09:17 <zuff> We must approach this from a scientific perspectiv.
21:09:22 <zuff> I want analysis...es.
21:09:54 <MizardX> We'll see if that accually happens.
21:10:08 <zuff> Good point.
21:13:45 <MizardX> +ul !(x)S
21:13:47 <thutubot> ...! out of stack!
21:13:58 <zuff> x is not an actual underload command.
21:15:18 <MizardX> I know. Just wanted to see the behavior when it ran out of stack.
21:15:34 <fizzie> Fungot is less verbose in that case.
21:15:37 <fizzie> ^ul !
21:15:37 <fungot> ...out of stack!
21:15:48 <fizzie> It's just "out of stack", not "x out of stack".
21:24:46 <fizzie> ^style
21:24:46 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
21:39:29 -!- olsner_ has joined.
21:39:29 -!- olsner has quit.
21:54:30 <zuff> oklopol: YOU DON'T EXIST.
22:03:27 <Warrigal> What's this about oklopol not existing?
22:04:06 <zuff> he doesn't
22:04:25 <Warrigal> Oh.
22:06:44 <GregorR> What dumbass made the /topic?
22:07:03 <GregorR> (Or rather, the text therein)
22:07:10 <Warrigal> optbot is gone.
22:07:25 <zuff> GregorR: i forget where it comes from
22:07:27 <zuff> i think some forum
22:07:33 <Warrigal> It must be replaced with a Normish bot.
22:07:35 <zuff> i put it there for the lulz
22:07:37 <GregorR> Heh
22:07:54 <GregorR> I personally use ++C++
22:08:10 <zuff> I use B
22:08:11 <zuff> CPL
22:08:18 <GregorR> Hardcore.
22:08:24 <GregorR> I want a RepRap.
22:09:09 <Deewiant> 1. "Why do you want to learn C when there's C++?!... C++ stands for a increasement of C..." zuff (n=ehird@eso-std.org) [09.12.2008 18:31:09]
22:09:25 <Deewiant> Oh right, you did respond
22:09:27 <Deewiant> Missed that
22:09:58 -!- Normish has joined.
22:10:02 <Warrigal> Yay!
22:10:13 <Warrigal> Unfortunately, it doesn't do anything.
22:10:22 <Warrigal> It'll ping out after five minutes.
22:10:40 <GregorR> So ... it's Telnet? :P
22:10:45 <pikhq> Alas, "C++" does nothing more than increment C and return the initial value of C.
22:10:51 <pikhq> C++ < C. ;)
22:10:56 <oklopol> GregorR: i don't like ++c++, since it isn't specced
22:11:01 <zuff> pikhq: lol
22:11:08 <zuff> oklopol: lol
22:11:08 <Warrigal> (cat - /home/ihope/hang | nc irc.freenode.net 6667) <<EOF
22:11:14 <Warrigal> Followed by some IRC commands.
22:11:28 <GregorR> Hah
22:12:04 <Warrigal> /home/ihope/hang is a FIFO with nothing on the other end, because I didn't find a device file that blocks forever when you read from it.
22:13:04 -!- edwardk has left (?).
22:13:33 <pikhq> /dev/null ?
22:13:48 <pikhq> No, that does EOF.
22:13:51 <pikhq> Never mind.
22:14:40 <Warrigal> /dev/zero and /dev/full do a good job of looking like they're blocking forever when you cat them.
22:15:15 <Warrigal> The thing is, you don't want to use all of your bandwidth to send zeros to freenode.
22:15:52 <zuff> /dev/full wouldn't send anything.
22:16:17 <Warrigal> It sure looks like millions and millions of zeros when I pipe it through base64.
22:16:52 <zuff> hm, ok.
22:17:45 -!- Normish has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:18:07 <Warrigal> I think Normish should have an official IRC bot.
22:18:11 <Warrigal> I don't know what it would do. :-P
22:19:17 <Warrigal> Hmm, I wonder where bsmnt_bot is.
22:19:48 <Warrigal> bsmntbombdood, do you still have a copy of bsmnt_bot?
22:19:53 <bsmntbombdood> ish
22:20:17 <Warrigal> Is it the kind of copy that can be downloaded and run?
22:20:55 <bsmntbombdood> little bit more difficult
22:20:58 <bsmntbombdood> because it's chroot
22:20:59 <bsmntbombdood> ed
22:21:21 <Warrigal> chroot is probably fine.
22:23:34 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
22:26:48 <Warrigal> Where is it, then?
22:30:08 <bsmntbombdood> uuuh
22:30:41 <bsmntbombdood> i have a file named bsmnt_bot.tgz
22:30:44 <bsmntbombdood> maybe that's it
22:31:20 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:34:35 <Warrigal> I take it you're untgzing it.
22:35:14 <bsmntbombdood> uhh so right now i have no webserver to host it
22:35:27 <zuff> bsmntbombdood: filebin.ca
22:35:36 <Warrigal> Or DCC.
22:36:16 <bsmntbombdood> Warrigal: no idea how old of a version this is
22:37:35 * Warrigal taps his foot according to the Thue-Morse sequence
22:38:11 <Warrigal> (Tap ... ... tap ... tap tap ... ... tap tap ... tap ... ... tap ... tap tap ... tap ... ... tap tap ... ... tap ... tap tap ...)
22:41:21 <oerjan> +ul ((tap )(... )):^!S(~:^:S*a~^*a*~:^):^
22:41:22 <thutubot> tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... tap ... ...too much output!
22:41:27 <oerjan> darn
22:41:50 <oerjan> ah
22:41:57 <oerjan> +ul ((tap )(... )):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
22:41:58 <thutubot> tap ... ... tap ... tap tap ... ... tap tap ... tap ... ... tap ... tap tap ... tap ... ... tap tap ... ... tap ... tap tap ... ... tap tap ... tap ... ... tap tap ... ... tap ... tap tap ... tap ... ... tap ... tap tap ... ... tap tap ... tap ... ... tap ...too much output!
22:42:19 <bsmntbombdood> http://filebin.ca/qhzppv/bsmnt_bot.tgz
22:42:23 <Warrigal> Sure looks like Thue-Morse to me.
22:42:23 <zuff> oerjan: win
22:42:37 * Warrigal wgets it
22:42:44 <bsmntbombdood> Warrigal: untar at your own risk, for all i know that's full of hardcore gay pornography
22:43:09 <Warrigal> It seems to have Python 2.4 in it.
22:43:22 <bsmntbombdood> it does
22:43:30 <Warrigal> I don't think PuTTY is capable of displaying hardcore gay pornography.
22:43:37 <bsmntbombdood> iirc it has the entire chroot enviroment you need in it
22:44:14 <bsmntbombdood> zuff: good service, there
22:44:36 <zuff> agreed, filebin is really useful
22:45:10 <bsmntbombdood> 15 gb is kinda lame though
22:45:41 <zuff> bsmntbombdood: 15 gb?
22:45:44 <zuff> itym 50 mb
22:45:53 <bsmntbombdood> no
22:45:54 <oerjan> 640 KB should be enough for anybody.
22:45:55 <zuff> oh you men
22:46:00 <zuff> bsmntbombdood: that's just how much has been used in total
22:46:02 <bsmntbombdood> "15 gb of rotating storage space"
22:46:08 <zuff> no
22:46:12 <zuff> the current amonut of files is 15 gb
22:46:17 <zuff> that doesn't mean it's at the maximum
22:46:31 <Warrigal> Wow, it contains an absolute symbolic link.
22:46:45 <Warrigal> lrwxrwxrwx 1 ihope ihope 42 Dec 10 17:44 sh -> /home/bsmntbombdood/python_chroot/bin/bash
22:46:49 <Warrigal> Broken, too.
22:47:07 <bsmntbombdood> what?
22:48:10 <Warrigal> Why is there that symbolic link inside a chroot jail?
22:48:34 <bsmntbombdood> oh lol
22:48:37 <Warrigal> bsmnt_bot is user 1343...
22:48:58 <bsmntbombdood> <Warrigal> Is it the kind of copy that can be downloaded and run?
22:48:58 <bsmntbombdood> <bsmntbombdood> little bit more difficult
22:49:12 <Warrigal> adduser --uid 1343 --disabled-password bsmnt_bot
22:49:57 <Warrigal> I hope _ is a valid character in usernames.
22:50:11 <bsmntbombdood> hrm, i wonder if that symlink would have allowed you to break out of the chroot
22:50:20 <zuff> damnit, should have tried
22:50:37 <Warrigal> symlinks don't let you break out of chroots.
22:51:15 <Warrigal> Hard links do.
23:04:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
23:08:33 <bsmntbombdood> Warrigal: get it running yet?
23:11:08 <Warrigal> I need two more votes before I can even write the next proposal, really.
23:11:23 <bsmntbombdood> huh?
23:11:42 <zuff> bsmntbombdood: warrigal.
23:11:44 <zuff> normish.
23:11:45 <zuff> nomic.
23:11:47 <zuff> computer.
23:11:59 <bsmntbombdood> wtfrutalkingabout
23:12:07 <zuff> warrigal is trying to run bsmnt_bot
23:12:09 <zuff> on normish
23:12:10 <zuff> which is a linux box
23:12:13 <zuff> that is a nomic
23:12:47 <bsmntbombdood> no me understando
23:12:57 <zuff> bsmntbombdood: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic
23:13:07 <bsmntbombdood> uh huh
23:13:21 <zuff> "uh huh" - sorry for explaining.
23:13:49 <bsmntbombdood> how can an operating system be nomic?
23:14:04 <zuff> bsmntbombdood: you can write executable proposals, and if they pass, they're run as root
23:14:12 <zuff> executable = shebang + +x
23:14:37 <Warrigal> The shebang isn't necessary, really.
23:14:41 <zuff> well, yes
23:14:45 <bsmntbombdood> uuuh
23:14:52 <zuff> bsmntbombdood: what's confusing now.
23:15:05 <bsmntbombdood> and who votes?
23:15:11 <zuff> the players?
23:15:15 <zuff> i.e. everyone with an account
23:15:18 <zuff> it's just a few programs
23:15:32 <zuff> you make proposals by writing to ~/proposals/, you can do FOR, AGAINST as command-line programs
23:15:39 <zuff> and anyone can "activate name" if it has enough votes.
23:16:13 <bsmntbombdood> that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard
23:16:30 <zuff> bsmntbombdood: and why is this?
23:16:41 <zuff> Codenomics have existed for a while, but do elaborate.
23:17:10 * zuff waits.
23:17:39 <zuff> bsmntbombdood: Those are some compelling arguments.
23:17:48 * oerjan watches zuff's beard grow across the floor
23:18:01 <zuff> bsmntbombdood: Wow! I never thought of it like that. It really does suck.
23:18:43 -!- oerjan has set topic: No telepathy please.
23:19:04 <lament> stop reading my mind YOU SICK PERVERT!
23:19:14 <bsmntbombdood> oh hi lament
23:19:22 <zuff> ah. he speak.
23:19:23 <zuff> speaks
23:20:00 <zuff> welp, your arguments sure have enlightened me.
23:20:04 <zuff> if for nothing other than their sheer number.
23:20:21 <zuff> ok, you can stop now, I'm getting an argument overload
23:20:32 <zuff> yes, yes, I get it, ok, ok
23:20:43 <bsmntbombdood> why does everyone have a different nick today?
23:21:00 <Warrigal> I've had a different nick since... hmm, not Christmas.
23:21:00 <zuff> Warrigal has been Warrigal for a long time.
23:21:07 <zuff> Warrigal: A month.
23:21:07 <zuff> Max.
23:21:11 <Warrigal> Actually, I was warrie here before I was Warrigal.
23:21:20 <zuff> bsmntbombdood: so, any arguments yet?
23:21:32 <bsmntbombdood> what's the point?
23:21:41 <zuff> It's a game.
23:21:46 <zuff> What is the point of any game?
23:22:06 <zuff> bsmntbombdood: what's the point of esolangs/
23:22:08 <Warrigal> It's like Neopets, only the Neopets-like features don't exist yet.
23:22:14 <zuff> Warrigal: That is very Zen.
23:22:24 <zuff> And also incomprehensible, but that's never stopped you :D
23:24:38 -!- jix has quit ("...").
23:25:50 <Warrigal> I'm not incomprehensible to everybody, I think. Might be, though.
23:27:09 <oerjan> ab gub fnar gabbit gnep znebby, Warrigal
23:28:17 <olsner_> ybbenz peng tabbig ranf bug ba!
23:28:48 <oerjan> olsner_: fneddoc gzippy
23:29:03 <Warrigal> Qumelo si quiera, a tajoques, no?
23:29:26 <oerjan> Warrigal: ikkje umogleg
23:29:30 <olsner_> besudla nutan!?
23:29:48 <Warrigal> Es jumpo el sharko!
23:30:54 <oerjan> darn google translate is useless
23:31:15 <bsmntbombdood> SPEAK ENGLISH IN AMERICA
23:31:39 <oerjan> eg er ikkje i amerika
23:31:44 <Warrigal> Google Translate no tiene use cuando su espaol no hace centados.
23:31:49 <Warrigal> s/use/uso/
23:33:02 <lament> no hace centados?
23:33:21 <bsmntbombdood> oerjan: i'm going to assume that says "i'm not in america" in heathen speak
23:33:48 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: nynorsk er ikkje noko heidningespråk
23:33:59 <olsner_> joho, är det visst det
23:34:08 <MizardX> håller med
23:34:12 <oerjan> ikkje fan
23:34:26 <olsner_> lusekoftor och kjempetorskar :P
23:34:39 <Warrigal> No hace centavos, sorry.
23:35:45 <oerjan> now google translate manages to translate into english, but it is _still_ incomprehensible
23:36:00 <oerjan> "Google Translate has no use when their Spanish does not make cents"
23:36:04 <bsmntbombdood> samleie du og ditt språk
23:36:31 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: samleie is a noun, not a verb.
23:36:54 <bsmntbombdood> oh sorry
23:37:02 <bsmntbombdood> i'll let google know
23:37:07 <oerjan> also, the direct translation is not idiomatic norwegian swearing
23:37:45 <Warrigal> I guess Google Translate actually did help there.
23:37:55 <oerjan> (also, samleie is rather neutral)
23:38:46 <bsmntbombdood> google's corpus is from the united nations
23:38:51 <bsmntbombdood> so probably not much swearing
23:39:17 <oerjan> and "du" is the subject form
23:40:18 <oerjan> norwegians would usually use something religiously based, like "Faen ta deg og språket ditt"
23:40:33 <oerjan> ("The devil take you ...")
23:40:42 <bsmntbombdood> lol, religiousfags
23:58:42 <oerjan> +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^(~aS:^):^
23:58:43 <thutubot> (((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(())(())(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(())(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(())(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)() ...a out of stack!
23:59:23 <zuff> hmm
23:59:31 <zuff> oerjan:
23:59:35 <zuff> underload look-and-say
23:59:36 <zuff> DO IT :D
23:59:57 <oerjan> ouch
2008-12-11
00:00:00 <GregorR> I WANT A REPRAP
00:00:08 <zuff> I WANT A PRAM
00:00:10 <oerjan> GregorR: er?
00:00:10 <zuff> ZAP YOUR PRAM
00:00:21 <GregorR> oerjan: http://www.reprap.org
00:00:44 <zuff> Rep rap...
00:00:46 <zuff> ...E
00:00:57 <zuff> O H S N A P
00:01:26 <zuff> also
00:01:27 <zuff> GregorR:
00:01:32 <zuff> INFINITE PRINTER-PRINTERS
00:01:34 <zuff> FUCKING AWESOME
00:01:39 <GregorR> I WANT ONE
00:01:42 <zuff> RepRap achieved self-replication at 14:00 hours UTC on 29 May 2008 at Bath University in the UK. The machine that did it - RepRap Version 1.0 "Darwin" - can be built now - see the Make your own RepRap link there or on the left, and for ways to get the bits and pieces you need, see the Obtaining Parts link.
00:01:47 <zuff> it sounds like it took a whil
00:01:47 <zuff> e
00:01:48 <zuff> :(
00:01:54 <zuff> oh
00:01:54 <zuff> no
00:01:55 <zuff> a few minutes
00:01:57 <zuff> AWESOME
00:02:08 <GregorR> It took them many years to achieve self-replication.
00:02:10 <zuff> To increase that 60%, the next version of RepRap will be able to make its own electric circuitry - a technology we have already proved experimentally - though not its electronic chips. After that we'll look to doing transistors with it, and so on...
00:02:12 <zuff> HAHAHAHHAHAHAH YES
00:02:14 <zuff> <3333
00:02:30 <lament> you realize what this eventually leads to.
00:02:31 <GregorR> I was watching the RepRap project until ... oh, about a month before it became successful X_X
00:02:39 <GregorR> lament: Grey goo?
00:02:46 <lament> grey goo
00:03:20 <zuff> :)
00:03:27 <zuff> while (1) { replicate() }
00:03:36 <zuff> hmm well
00:03:52 <zuff> that reprap printer takes a "few minutes" to print itself
00:03:52 <zuff> it says
00:03:52 <zuff> so
00:03:53 <zuff> just speed that up a lot
00:03:55 <zuff> and make it smaller
00:04:01 <zuff> LIGHT_GRAY GOOOOOOO
00:04:15 <Warrigal> RepRaps work now?
00:04:23 <zuff> yep
00:04:43 <lament> yeah, you kinda need nanotech for grey goo
00:04:57 <zuff> lament: thus why I said light gray goo
00:06:27 <zuff> I wonder how fast gray goo would be.
00:06:31 <zuff> Seconds? Minutes? Hours? Years?
00:06:32 <oerjan> +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(:)*)(!!:^(^)*))a~*^!!^):^aS
00:06:32 <thutubot> (!!:^(^)*)
00:06:41 <Warrigal> Gray goo would be a lot like bacteria.
00:06:42 <zuff> oerjan: wuzzat
00:06:48 <oerjan> darn
00:07:05 <zuff> Warrigal: I prefer thinking of something that takes a few minutes to cross the whole earth.
00:07:12 <lament> zuff: that's too fast.
00:07:20 <zuff> lament: >:(
00:07:31 <zuff> lament: Millenia?
00:07:38 <lament> they can't move fast by themselves
00:07:46 <lament> being so small
00:07:48 <zuff> why would they move
00:07:55 <zuff> if they want to go in some direction, just replicate that way
00:07:56 <oerjan> +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(:):S*)(!!:^(^):S*))a~*^!!^):^
00:08:04 <oerjan> bah
00:08:10 <lament> zuff: you need resources to replicate
00:08:15 <lament> you need to get resources somewhere first
00:08:22 <zuff> lament: stuff around you :P
00:08:30 <lament> like what, air?
00:08:36 <zuff> yeah! :P
00:08:47 <oerjan> they also need energy
00:09:13 <zuff> airnergy
00:09:39 <oerjan> air in itself is probably not very energetic, although you can burn things in it
00:10:16 * Warrigal finds out how much is produced in the United States in one day
00:10:24 <Warrigal> No, that's not right.
00:10:25 <Warrigal> In one minute.
00:10:39 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
00:11:20 <oerjan> +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(:)*)(!!:^(^)*))a~*^(~aS:^):^):^
00:11:21 <thutubot> ()((!())(!:^(:)*)(!!:^(^)*))(~((!())(!:^(:)*)(!!:^(^)*))a~*^(~aS:^):^)(())(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(())(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*) ...too much output!
00:11:33 <Warrigal> About $27,000,000. Cool.
00:11:58 <zuff> oerjan: is this look and say?
00:12:09 <oerjan> no, it's what i was doing initially
00:12:22 <oerjan> next step
00:12:38 <zuff> lol
00:13:24 <oerjan> oh right
00:13:25 <oklopol> hmm. trying to open {:^}^n?
00:13:33 <oerjan> oklopol: exactly
00:13:36 <zuff> what?
00:13:41 <oklopol> figured
00:13:48 <oerjan> er wait
00:13:59 <oerjan> hm i could do that, but this is more ambitious
00:14:09 <oklopol> uhhuh?
00:14:29 <oerjan> i realized : and ^ should be easier than : and a which i had thought of before but which was too complicated
00:14:31 <oklopol> zuff: that's pretty standard notation
00:14:39 <zuff> wat wat wat
00:14:43 <zuff> oerjan: what does your program do
00:15:02 <oklopol> {:^}^n, n-tuples from {":", "^"}
00:15:05 <zuff> ...
00:15:06 <zuff> k
00:15:09 <oerjan> +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(:)*)(!!:^(^)*))~*^!!^):^aS
00:15:09 <thutubot> (^:^^:^::)
00:15:13 <oerjan> yes!
00:15:19 <oklopol> 8|
00:15:27 <oklopol> holy fuck man.
00:15:31 <zuff> +ul (::**) (:)~*(*)* S
00:15:32 <oklopol> wanna step me through it?
00:15:37 <oerjan> you realized what it did?
00:15:41 <oklopol> ...
00:15:42 <zuff> ...
00:15:46 <zuff> +ul (::**)(:)~*(*)*S
00:15:46 <thutubot> :::***
00:15:50 <zuff> INCREMENT
00:15:51 <oklopol> oerjan: your mother realized what that did.
00:16:05 <oklopol> :)
00:16:27 <oklopol> oerjan: so, err, yes, yes i did
00:16:30 <oerjan> it's a compact bit representation, using : and ^ for bits. this program just computes NOT
00:16:34 <oklopol> now step me through it!
00:16:57 <oklopol> yeah maybe that could be the standard way to do bitstrings in underload :)
00:17:01 <oklopol> you should consult ais523
00:17:16 <oklopol> oerjan: now step me through it
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00:17:35 <oerjan> and as you pointed out it can also analyze standard numbers
00:17:44 <oerjan> well
00:17:46 <zuff> it occurs to me that a far easier number representation is:
00:17:59 <zuff> (^ x N)
00:18:00 <zuff> that is
00:18:02 <zuff> 3 = (^^^)
00:18:03 <oerjan> zuff: this is for compactness, not ease
00:18:12 <zuff> +ul (^^^)(^)*
00:18:15 <zuff> +ul (^^^)(^)*S
00:18:15 <thutubot> ^^^^
00:18:17 <zuff> INCREMENT
00:18:21 <zuff> I dunno how to subtract :D
00:18:21 <zuff> oh wait
00:18:37 <zuff> hmm
00:18:43 <oklopol> zuff: i'm not convinced.
00:18:43 <zuff> +ul (^^^)((^)*)S
00:18:43 <thutubot> (^)*
00:18:47 <zuff> er, oops
00:18:50 <zuff> +ul (^^^)((^)*)~^S
00:18:51 <thutubot> ...^ out of stack!
00:18:55 <zuff> wat?
00:18:55 <zuff> oh
00:19:01 <zuff> +ul (^^^)(!)((^)*)~^S
00:19:01 <thutubot> ^^^
00:19:05 <oklopol> oerjan: are you preparing the step-through ;)
00:19:06 <oerjan> +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(:)*)(!!:^(^)*))~*^!!^):^aS
00:19:06 <thutubot> (^:^^:^::)
00:19:07 <oklopol> ?
00:19:08 <zuff> okay so
00:19:09 <zuff> hmm
00:19:15 <zuff> +ul (^^^)(aaaa)((^)*)~^S
00:19:15 <thutubot> (((((^)*))))
00:19:23 <zuff> +ul (^^^)(!)((^)*)~^S
00:19:24 <thutubot> ^^^
00:19:30 <zuff> oh um
00:19:31 <zuff> duh
00:19:31 <oerjan> oklopol: in this damn noise?
00:19:32 <zuff> XD
00:19:42 <oklopol> oerjan: i don't mind.
00:19:46 <oklopol> if you do, i have priv
00:19:49 <zuff> +ul ()((^)*)(^^^)^S
00:19:49 <thutubot> ...^ out of stack!
00:19:52 <zuff> wattt
00:20:01 <oklopol> zuff: almost there
00:20:04 <zuff> oh wait
00:20:09 -!- jayCampbell has left (?).
00:20:09 <zuff> the representation
00:20:10 <zuff> should be
00:20:19 <zuff> hmm.
00:20:20 <zuff> well
00:20:24 <zuff> dup dip call dup dip call dup dip call
00:20:27 <zuff> sort of thing
00:20:29 <zuff> uhh you know what i mean
00:20:47 <oerjan> oklopol: first, we arrange to get () ((())~:a~*) (:^::^:^^) on the stack
00:21:04 <oerjan> then we run a ^
00:21:12 <oerjan> er wait
00:21:13 <oklopol> okay...
00:21:30 <oerjan> not ((())~:a~*) but the result of ((())~:a~*):a~*
00:22:04 <oerjan> that program is essential for the building up. if it is run, it leaves (()) plus itself on the stack
00:22:42 <oerjan> the first () is for marking the bottom of stack
00:23:11 <oklopol> okay
00:23:26 <oerjan> now when we run (:^::^:^^) with ((())~:a~*):a~* = (((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*) below
00:23:43 <oerjan> each : will just copy it
00:24:12 <oerjan> while each ^ will run it, leaving a (()) below a copy of it
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00:25:16 <oerjan> after running (:^::^:^^) we have turned each : -> (((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*) and each ^ -> (()) .
00:25:22 <oerjan> repeat main program:
00:25:40 <oerjan> +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(:)*)(!!:^(^)*))~*^!!^):^aS
00:25:40 <thutubot> (^:^^:^::)
00:26:11 <oklopol> how trivial.
00:26:26 <oklopol> tbh i kinda dropped off the wagon at some point, i'd probably have to run that on paper to really get it.
00:26:32 <oklopol> (or look at it before 2 am)
00:26:34 <oerjan> then we do a ! to get rid of the top copy of (((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*). now we just have () at the bottom, (()) for each ^ and (((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*) for each :
00:26:44 <oklopol> hmm oh
00:27:03 <oklopol> not ready yet :)
00:27:10 * oklopol tries to concentrate
00:27:22 <oerjan> this is the state after (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!
00:27:43 <oerjan> let me do a run to show the stack
00:27:53 <oklopol> oh wait
00:27:58 <oerjan> +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~aS:^):^
00:27:59 <thutubot> (())(())(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(())(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)(())(((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*)() ...a out of stack!
00:28:06 <oklopol> i'm not sure you have to, i got it on the second read.
00:28:08 <oklopol> pretty simple
00:28:20 <oerjan> (recall this is printed top down)
00:28:30 <oerjan> well someone else might want to follow too
00:28:45 <oklopol> : copies the droppifier, ^ makes it drop
00:29:06 <oklopol> so naturally after the run the droppifiers and droppeds represent the string.
00:29:09 <oerjan> not quite drop, buts (()) under it
00:29:13 <oklopol> yes
00:29:16 <oerjan> *puts
00:29:30 <oklopol> just happened to use a stack term with the complete opposite meaning :P
00:30:14 <oerjan> and now the different marks are conveniently differentiated by how much they leave on the stack when run: () drops itself, (()) leaves just 1, and (((())~:a~*)(())~:a~*) leaves two elements when run
00:30:41 <oklopol> yeah, the rest is just technical mongering.
00:30:47 <oklopol> which by the way i'm pretty surprised fit that little space
00:31:06 <oklopol> even though hmm yeah that's a simple way to distinguish
00:31:24 <oklopol> anyway, like i've said before, you're a god
00:32:02 <oerjan> \(O_O)/
00:33:22 <oklopol> +ul (^)()(~:*~:)(^^^)^S
00:33:22 <thutubot> ^^
00:33:28 <oklopol> +ul (^)(~:*~:)(~:*~:)(^^^)^S
00:33:29 <thutubot> ~:*~:
00:33:35 <oklopol> ...
00:34:04 <oklopol> +ul (^)(~:*~:)(~:*~:)(^^^)!!^S
00:34:04 <thutubot> ...: out of stack!
00:34:08 <oklopol> +ul (^)(~:*~:)(~:*~:)(^^^)!^S
00:34:08 <thutubot> ~:*~:
00:34:13 <oklopol> :<
00:34:22 <oklopol> +ul (^)(~:*~:)(~:*~:)(^^^)^!S
00:34:23 <thutubot> ~:*~:
00:34:26 <oklopol> +ul (^)(~:*~:)(~:*~:)(^^^)^!!S
00:34:26 <thutubot> ^^^^^^^^
00:34:36 <oklopol> lol yeah okay good
00:34:52 <oklopol> +ul (^)(~(^)**~:)(~(^)**~:)(^^^)^!!S
00:34:52 <thutubot> ...: out of stack!
00:35:13 <oklopol> +ul (^)(~(^)*~:)(~(^)*~:)(^^^)^!!S
00:35:13 <thutubot> ^^^^
00:35:30 <oklopol> +ul ()(~(^)*~:)(~(^)*~:)()(^^^)^!!S
00:35:30 <thutubot> ^^
00:36:00 <oklopol> +ul (^^^)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~^!!S
00:36:00 <thutubot> ^^^
00:36:09 <oklopol> ...
00:36:13 <oklopol> +ul (^^^)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^!!S
00:36:13 <thutubot> ^^
00:36:25 <oklopol> zuff: .
00:37:43 <oklopol> anyway i'm off to sleep, i'm very tired am i.
00:37:45 <oklopol> ->
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01:29:01 <MizardX> +ul (^^^^)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~()~^!!S
01:29:01 <thutubot> ^^
01:29:07 <MizardX> +ul (^^^^)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~()~()~^!!S
01:29:07 <thutubot> ^
01:32:54 <MizardX> +ul ()()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^!!S
01:32:55 <thutubot> ~(^)*~:
01:33:06 <MizardX> +ul (^)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^!!S
01:33:23 <MizardX> +ul (^^)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^!!S
01:33:23 <thutubot> ^
01:34:03 <MizardX> +ul (^)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^!!(")SS(")S
01:34:04 <thutubot> ""
01:35:32 <MizardX> +ul (!)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^!!(")SS(")S
01:35:32 <thutubot> ""
01:36:37 <MizardX> +ul ((x)S^^)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^!!(")SS(")S
01:36:37 <thutubot> x"^"
01:37:03 <MizardX> +ul ((x)S^(x)S^(x)S)()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^!!(")SS(")S
01:37:03 <thutubot> xxx"^"
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01:42:55 <MizardX> +ul (^^^^)(^^)~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~^!!S
01:42:56 <thutubot> ^^^^^^
01:45:22 <MizardX> +ul (^^^^)(^^)(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~^!!S
01:45:23 <thutubot> ^^^^^^
01:47:23 <oerjan> +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!()((*)~:a~*a*^):a~*)(!:^(:)~^)(!!:^(^)~^))~*^!!^):^aS
01:47:23 <thutubot> (((*)~:a~*a*^)(*)~:a~*a*^)
01:47:59 <oerjan> +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!()((*)~:a~*a*^):a~*)(!:^(:)~^)(!!:^(^)~^))~*^!!^):^!aS
01:47:59 <thutubot> (^:^^:^::)
01:51:08 <oerjan> +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(~^)*))~*^!!^):^aS
01:51:08 <thutubot> (~^^~^~^^~^^^)
01:51:27 <MizardX> +ul (^^^^^)(^^^)~(~()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^~:)~(~()~(~(^)*~:)~(~(^)*~:)~()~^~:)~^!!S
01:51:27 <thutubot> ~(^)*~:^^^^
01:51:39 <oerjan> +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(~^)*)(!!:^(^)*))~*^!!^):^aS
01:51:39 <thutubot> (^~^^^~^^~^~^)
02:06:37 <adu> hi
02:06:45 <oerjan> ho
02:06:50 <adu> how are you
02:06:54 <adu> , 2
02:07:19 <adu> +ul (:^:)
02:07:35 <adu> + ul (:::::)
02:07:42 <oerjan> no printing statement in there
02:08:03 <adu> oerjan: i don't know thu
02:08:08 <oerjan> +ul (:^:)S
02:08:08 <thutubot> :^:
02:08:12 <oerjan> it's underload
02:08:30 <adu> oh
02:08:33 <adu> ok
02:08:37 <adu> I know forth
02:08:37 <oerjan> functional stack language
02:09:04 <adu> how so?
02:09:18 <oerjan> ^ runs the command at top of stack
02:09:27 <oerjan> : duplicates the top of stack
02:09:45 <oerjan> ~ switches top two stack elements
02:09:52 <oerjan> S prints top of stack
02:10:05 <oerjan> a adds parentheses around top of stack
02:10:17 <adu> +ul (:::):^S
02:10:17 <thutubot> :::
02:10:40 <adu> +ul (:::)^S
02:10:40 <thutubot> ...: out of stack!
02:10:49 <oerjan> ! drops the top of stack
02:11:01 <adu> +ul ::::S
02:11:02 <thutubot> ...: out of stack!
02:11:06 <oerjan> the : had nothing duplicate there
02:11:16 <oerjan> *to duplicate
02:11:44 <oerjan> (...) puts ... as an element on top of the stack
02:11:44 <adu> +ul (hello world)S
02:11:45 <thutubot> hello world
02:11:56 <adu> +ul helloworldS
02:12:13 <oerjan> that's illegal because h is not a command.
02:12:18 <adu> oh
02:12:29 <adu> so I guess parentheses don't work like I thought
02:12:39 <oerjan> nope, they are like quoting
02:12:59 <oerjan> * concatenates the two top stack elements
02:13:02 <adu> +ul (hi)(lo)~S
02:13:02 <thutubot> hi
02:13:14 <adu> +ul (hi)(lo)~SS
02:13:14 <thutubot> hilo
02:13:19 <adu> +ul (hi)(lo)SS
02:13:19 <thutubot> lohi
02:14:34 <oerjan> +ul (:aSS):aSS
02:14:35 <thutubot> (:aSS):aSS
02:15:01 <Sgeo> What language is this?
02:15:06 <oerjan> underload
02:15:21 <oerjan> see above
02:15:34 <oerjan> also, on the wiki
02:16:10 <Sgeo> +ul (<)S
02:16:10 <thutubot> <
02:16:19 <Sgeo> +ul ("<)S
02:16:19 <thutubot> "<
02:16:31 <Sgeo> So much for []<> being reserved?
02:16:36 <Sgeo> +ul (h"i)S
02:16:36 <thutubot> h"i
02:16:37 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Wiki: http://esolangs.org.
02:17:04 <oerjan> Sgeo: no known interpreter implements that, it says as much
02:17:39 <oerjan> although " quoting could be useful. especially if it ignored that they cannot be used with ordinary parentheses.
02:18:16 <Sgeo> +ul (()S
02:18:16 <thutubot> ...out of time!
02:18:18 <Sgeo> +ul ("()S
02:18:19 <thutubot> ...out of time!
02:18:31 <oerjan> nope, and the spec also says you cannot
02:21:53 <oerjan> +ul ((*)(*))(~:^~S( )S~a^*a*~:^):^
02:21:53 <thutubot> * ...: out of stack!
02:21:57 <oerjan> oops
02:22:49 <oerjan> +ul ((*)(*))(~:^~S( )Sa~^*a*~:^):^
02:22:50 <thutubot> * * ** *** ***** ******** ************* ********************* ********************************** ******************************************************* ...too much output!
02:34:04 <MizardX> +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(:^)*)(!!:^(^)*))~*^!!^):^aS
02:34:04 <thutubot> (^:^^^:^^:^:^)
02:34:24 <MizardX> +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(~^)*)(!!:^(^)*))~*^!!^):^aS
02:34:24 <thutubot> (^~^^^~^^~^~^)
02:34:50 <MizardX> +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(:)*))~*^!!^):^aS
02:34:50 <thutubot> (:^::^:^^)
02:35:41 <oerjan> hm...
02:37:02 <oerjan> +ul (::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^:*)(!!:^:*(*)*))~*^!!^):^aS
02:37:02 <thutubot> (****************************************************)
02:37:43 <oerjan> +ul (^::^:)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^:*)(!!:^:*(*)*))~*^!!^):^aS
02:37:44 <thutubot> (*************)
02:37:48 <MizardX> :)
02:40:12 <adu> wow
02:41:23 <oerjan> adu: i found out how to unpack lists of ^ and : as binary strings. it's not trivial because underload has no basic way of taking apart the inside of parentheses.
02:42:41 <oerjan> you have to trick the ^ and : commands into doing the work for you
02:43:13 <adu> oerjan: then make it do it
02:43:39 <oerjan> um i just did?
02:43:49 <MizardX> +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^((caret))*)(!!:^((colon))*))~*^!!^):^aS
02:43:49 <thutubot> ((colon)(caret)(colon)(colon)(caret)(colon)(caret)(caret))
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02:45:31 <oerjan> essentially you can turn each of : and ^ into any sequence of commands you choose, by putting it where it says ((caret))* and ((colon))*
02:45:42 <oerjan> oh he left
02:48:59 <Warrigal> +ul (^^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^((caret))*)(!!:^((colon))*))~*^!!^):^aS
02:48:59 <thutubot> ((caret)(caret)(caret))
02:49:13 <oerjan> you can also select the recursion base case inside the (!())
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02:49:37 <Warrigal> Cool.
02:59:41 <MizardX> +ul (:^::^:^^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!(<))(!:^(0)*)(!!:^(1)*))~*^!!^):^(>)*S
02:59:41 <thutubot> <10110100>
02:59:43 <Warrigal> Hmm. I wonder if one row of the Sierpinski gasket is the Cantor set, scaled linearly.
03:00:12 <oerjan> topologically it must be
03:01:03 <oerjan> (the cantor set is the unique zero-dimensional compact metric space without isolated points, if i'm not forgetting something)
03:02:19 <oerjan> hm except some rows of the sierpinsky gasket have whole lines, at least in part
03:02:36 <oerjan> such as the outer edges
03:03:16 <oerjan> but if you pick a coordinate which doesn't have a finite binary representation, you should avoid those
03:04:25 <Warrigal> But I said scaled linearly. That's a bit stronger than a homeomorphism.
03:04:45 <oerjan> yes
03:05:57 <oerjan> it would not be the same proportions at every scale, i don't think
03:06:35 <oerjan> unless you hit some spot which solves an equation to make it exact, possibly
03:07:01 <Warrigal> I think I'll stare at it until I know the answer.
03:07:54 <Warrigal> The answer is no.
03:07:56 <oerjan> note that the obvious spots where you would expect an exact trisection are where you have whole lines
03:07:58 <Warrigal> That was easy enough.
03:10:22 <oerjan> however, it may be of a generalized form, where you have a sequence of numbers to determine how much to remove at each step
03:11:13 <oerjan> but all blocks get the same amount removed in a given step
03:11:27 <Warrigal> Remove the middle half instead of the middle third.
03:11:32 <Warrigal> That's in the Sierpinski gasket.
03:12:01 <oerjan> for _some_ rows. it varies.
03:12:10 <Warrigal> Yes.
03:12:56 <Warrigal> There's a piecewise recursive formula for this, no doubt.
03:13:38 <oerjan> i think possibly the proportions taken away at one step is a function of the previous step
03:14:09 <oerjan> so you really need only one number
03:15:38 <oerjan> note there are some symmetries there. the top triangle is a rescaling of the whole, preserving all the removed proportions
03:16:01 <Warrigal> Yeah.
03:16:06 <oerjan> (for a horizontal row)
03:16:23 <oerjan> hm vertical ones are different
03:16:47 <oerjan> they will not be that simple
03:17:05 <Warrigal> Vertical lines sound fun.
03:17:39 <oerjan> they will not have whole line segments, but may have isolated points instead
03:18:01 <Warrigal> Straight down the middle, you get countably infinitely many points.
03:18:14 <oerjan> was just about to say
03:18:18 <Warrigal> Homeomorphic to {0, 1/2, 2/3, 3/4, . . ., 1}.
03:18:55 <Warrigal> Anywhere else, it's probably still a piecewise recursive matter.
03:19:09 <Warrigal> Now, ponder lines of slope 1/phi. :-P
03:19:18 <oerjan> i think x with finite binary expansion also gives countable set
03:19:27 <Warrigal> Yep.
03:20:26 <oerjan> otherwise, it should be at least a topological cantor set i think
03:20:44 <oerjan> (no isolated points)
03:21:49 <oerjan> ok
03:23:02 <oerjan> i assume with any non-trivial angle, you can never get line segments, and only get isolated points if you hit the corner of a subtriangle.
03:24:40 <oerjan> which means for each angle there are only a countable number of lines that don't give a topological cantor set
03:27:14 <MizardX> Cantor set contains all trinary numbers that can be written without any 1's. 0.202002020220202002202020022 in base-3.
03:27:16 <oerjan> also i think there are only a countable number of angles for which you can intersect more than one isolated point
03:27:53 <MizardX> possibly ending with a single 1
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03:28:18 <oerjan> because if you intersect two, you intersect two triangle corners, and are down to some rational numbers as coordinates
03:28:50 <oerjan> MizardX: a single 1 = 0222222222222... anyway
03:29:04 <MizardX> ah
03:29:15 <MizardX> but that would be infinite
03:29:20 <oerjan> yeah
03:30:02 <oerjan> but you avoid special cases that way, so may be worth it
03:36:05 <Warrigal> .0222... is a special case?
03:37:29 <oerjan> if you write it as .1
03:38:26 <Warrigal> Oh.
03:38:46 <Warrigal> The Cantor set contains infinite decimals anyway.
04:34:55 <MizardX> The rational fractions with infinite trinary expansion would have to be of the form '0.xxxx(yyyy)', where 'yyyy' is repeating. If 'x' is 'n' trits long, and 'y' is 'm' trits long, then those numbers could be written as 'x / 3^n + y / (3^m+1) / 3^n'.
04:40:06 <MizardX> oh, and neither xxxx nor yyyy can contain any '1'.
04:46:09 <MizardX> err... that would be (3^m - 1)
04:46:33 <MizardX> 1/4 = 0.020202... = 0.(02) = 0/3^0 + 2/(3^2 - 1) = 2/8 = 1/4
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13:39:23 <zuff> +ul (a)(:a~*)^
13:39:26 <zuff> +ul (a)(:a~*)^S
13:39:26 <thutubot> (a)a
13:39:34 <zuff> +ul (a)(:a~*)^(:a~*)^S
13:39:34 <thutubot> ((a)a)(a)a
13:39:41 <zuff> hm
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14:30:54 <zuff> http://www.blackbirdhome.com/ what
14:32:14 <clsmith> African Americans need a different browser to caucasians, see. It's a fact of life. Different, uh, internet habits?
14:34:13 <zuff> Yes.
14:34:20 <clsmith> Oh wow, it even has black search and black bookmarks. Which are different from normal search and bookmarks, because of their... colour.
14:34:32 <zuff> Proposal: Black browsers can only access black sites
14:34:41 <zuff> Same for every other trait
14:34:48 <clsmith> That way we can divide everyone again. :D
14:34:56 <clsmith> Conclusion: lots of fail.
14:35:02 <zuff> also, you need a Black License to download any Black Browsers
14:35:11 <zuff> to be sure you're not some random whitey poking around in the black 'net
14:38:12 <zuff> clsmith: you new here? :)
14:38:19 <clsmith> zuff: I am. :)
14:38:43 <zuff> welcome
14:38:49 <clsmith> Thanks. xP
14:38:55 <zuff> clsmith: have you gone through the initiation procedure yet?
14:39:22 <clsmith> zuff: Would it be tactical for me to say yes?
14:39:29 <zuff> No.
14:39:35 <clsmith> Nom then.
14:39:38 <clsmith> ... *No
14:39:48 <zuff> clsmith: Okay, it's very simple, just sacrifice a few goats.
14:39:51 <zuff> 20 should be enough.
14:40:02 <zuff> Also, you have to drink about three cups of children's blood.
14:40:06 <zuff> 'sall there is to it.
14:40:26 <clsmith> Psh. Some initiation; I do that every week or so.
14:41:13 <zuff> clsmith: I should avoid mentioning the massive orgy/lobotomy hybrid, then.
14:41:23 <zuff> Umm. Forget I said that.
14:44:20 <clsmith> Has anyone ever written a Tar program in Befunge? 'Cause I was thinking of doing one.
14:45:02 <zuff> Nope. That'd be neat.
14:45:05 <zuff> 93 or 98?
14:45:13 <clsmith> 98. For the i/o etc.
14:45:26 <zuff> +ul (:(^)~a*^)(:(^)~a*^)*
14:45:29 <zuff> +ul (:(^)~a*^)(:(^)~a*^)*S
14:45:29 <thutubot> :(^)~a*^:(^)~a*^
14:45:36 <zuff> welp, addition is pretty trivial.
14:45:43 <zuff> now to do the * prog
14:45:51 <zuff> +ul (*S)(:(^)~a*^)^
14:45:52 <thutubot> ...* out of stack!
14:45:55 <zuff> +ul ((*)S)(:(^)~a*^)^
14:45:56 <thutubot> *
14:46:00 <zuff> +ul ((*)S)(:(^)~a*^:(^)~a*^)^
14:46:00 <thutubot> **
14:46:02 <zuff> Awesome.
14:46:12 <zuff> Hmm.
14:46:14 <zuff> Subtraction:
14:46:33 <zuff> HmHm.
14:46:43 <zuff> o.
14:46:44 <zuff> hm
14:46:45 <zuff> ah
14:48:14 <zuff> +ul (:(^)~a*^:(^)~a*^)((:(^)~a*^))~:(^!())~a*^!(*)~^S
14:48:15 <thutubot> *
14:48:23 <zuff> +ul (:(^)~a*^)((:(^)~a*^))~:(^!())~a*^!(*)~^S
14:48:23 <thutubot> *
14:48:26 <zuff> wat
14:48:34 <zuff> o
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16:23:01 <Slereah_> Gaiz
16:23:22 <zuff> wat
16:23:31 <Slereah_> How much time would you estimate a txt file with roughly 6 million chars would take to open?
16:23:39 <zuff> open, none.
16:23:41 <zuff> read, long time.
16:23:58 <Slereah_> Open with Notepad, that is.
16:24:09 <Slereah_> It's been a while and still no dice.
16:24:33 <zuff> never.
16:24:43 <Slereah_> It does seem like it, doesn't it.
16:24:52 <Slereah_> I guess I'll go back with a hundred thousand numbers.
16:25:21 <oerjan> well you see notepad's opening time is really an ackermann function of the input length. it's just that the constant overhead is really low so you don't notice until you get up to some size.
16:26:11 <Slereah_> Heh.
16:26:46 <Slereah_> Well, I'm back at ~600,000 chars, which I know it can open in reasonable time.
16:26:57 <Slereah_> (I'm testing a random number generator))
16:29:51 <Slereah_> Although it's still pretty Ackermanny
16:30:15 <fizzie> Please make a plot of notepad's file-opening time as a function of the file length.
16:30:31 <Slereah_> With what, a stopwatch?
16:30:40 <Slereah_> I'm a lousy programmer, as you know
16:31:08 <fizzie> Yes, a stopwatch. Take at least a dozen measurements for each data point to get more reliable values, also.
16:31:20 <Azstal> SendMessageTimeout might work.
16:31:35 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal.
16:32:13 <Slereah_> Ah, there it is.
16:32:18 <Slereah_> (The file)
16:32:47 <Slereah_> Now let's plot shit with it
16:32:47 <Slereah_> ...
16:32:47 <Slereah_> ...
16:32:47 <Slereah_> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
16:32:58 <Slereah_> Bad results
16:33:01 <Slereah_> I have to try again
16:33:15 <oerjan> FOR SCIENCE!
16:33:44 <Slereah_> The program takes like a microsecond to run
16:33:53 <Slereah_> And the resulting file ten minutes to open
16:34:40 <Asztal> I think notepad actually gives up and refuses to open files above a certain size.
16:34:49 <oerjan> have you checked that the file size is what you think?
16:35:06 <Slereah_> It's 887 KB.
16:35:21 <oerjan> try wordpad, i vaguely recall that is better
16:35:21 <Asztal> it's worse if you have word wrap on
16:37:20 <Asztal> I just opened a 2MB file in 7 seconds. I think it also helps if it doesn't think your file isn't full of CJK characters...
16:37:59 * oerjan doubts that
16:38:17 <Asztal> which part?
16:38:19 <Asztal> it uses a heuristic to distinguish UTF-16 files from ascii files
16:38:20 <oerjan> only if because of the double negation, you see
16:38:29 <Asztal> oh, right
16:39:21 <oerjan> NEVER AVOID ESCHEWING DOUBLE NEGATION
16:39:21 <Asztal> it's slightly ironic that my constant revision and re-organizing of my sentences results in poorer grammar than it started with :(
16:41:37 <Asztal> I was going to ask if double negation cancels out in Finnish (because it doesn't cancel out in Hungarian), but then realised you're not Finnish :)
16:43:01 <oerjan> it doesn't cancel out in norwegian either, for what it's worth
16:43:11 <zuff> +_!%#
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16:44:08 <oerjan> zuff: you should do something about those exposed entrails
16:44:16 <zuff> +_!%#
16:48:40 <zuff> Rather esoteric C question... how fast would calling mmap with O_CREAT be?
16:48:50 <zuff> I mean, does it create immediately or lazily?
16:48:57 <zuff> And how quick is that?
16:49:05 <oerjan> O_CREAT sounds strangely religious
16:50:49 <fizzie> I also don't think it's a mmap flag at all. I don't see how it could create a file anyway since it only takes a file descriptor.
16:51:01 <zuff> Err, yes.
16:51:07 <zuff> Well, forget the mmap part.
16:51:11 <zuff> How long does creating a file take? :P
16:51:28 <zuff> Roughly, etc.
16:55:04 <fizzie> I think you need to do something rather explicit to cause it to actually preallocate the disk space and fill it with zeroes; I think even ftruncate() won't yet do it.
16:55:33 <zuff> mm.
16:55:43 <fizzie> posix_fallocate() will, since that's what it's for.
16:55:46 <zuff> For added WTF, this is, by the way, to replace malloc with open/mmap.
16:55:53 <zuff> Fear.
16:56:24 <oklokok> Asztal: cancels
16:56:28 <oklokok> sleeps ->
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17:10:41 <Slereah_> 909002 bytes, was I saying.
17:10:51 <Slereah_> Also here it is : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers7/GR.jpg
17:11:10 <Slereah_> It's supposed to be a uniform distribution between 0 and 1.
17:11:17 <Slereah_> With a thousand plot points.
17:11:47 <zuff> who wants to partake in a random number challenge.
17:12:00 <Slereah_> Well, it's just for class.
17:12:19 <zuff> i know
17:12:21 <zuff> it inspired me
17:12:21 <zuff> :P
17:12:41 <Slereah_> Also it's like the building block of my program, but I'm still fucking far from being done
17:13:11 <Slereah_> It's not even used directly.
17:13:23 <Slereah_> I use it to generate another random number, this time on a Boltzmann distribution
17:14:03 <zuff> Basically, the idea is that we keep making RNG functions to get the even-distribution line as straight as possible.
17:14:09 <zuff> The straightest one wins. (No gays allowed.)
17:14:58 <Slereah_> Dude.
17:15:02 <Slereah_> It's random.
17:15:10 <zuff> Yes.
17:15:12 <Slereah_> It's not supposed to be straight.
17:15:17 <Slereah_> Unless you use infinity numbers.
17:15:19 <zuff> I'm talking about the distribution.
17:15:36 <Slereah_> You don't generate a distribution
17:15:43 <Slereah_> You generate numbers.
17:15:54 <zuff> Slereah_: no shit?
17:15:59 <zuff> I mean the distribution of the rng function.
17:16:08 <Slereah_> The graph isn't even the numbers, it's the normalized classes.
17:16:17 <zuff> I don't care about your graph...
17:16:24 <zuff> I'm not talking about it.
17:16:39 <Slereah_> I would have done moar stuff, but it gets laggy after 100,000
17:17:27 <Slereah_> Well, time to test the Boltzmann distribution now.
17:23:55 <Slereah_> Shit.
17:24:04 <Slereah_> That program doesn't work now :(
17:29:53 <oerjan> za programma kaputnik
17:30:17 <Slereah_> I have to redo the classes thingamagig
17:48:15 <Slereah_> Fuck
17:48:35 <Slereah_> How can I impose conditions on constants in Mathematica?
17:48:48 <Slereah_> Like say it's real and positive
17:56:05 <fizzie> I think you can use Assumptions[] for that.
17:56:25 <Slereah_> Let's see.
17:56:27 <fizzie> Quite many commands also accept an Assumptions->{} parameter.
17:57:04 <fizzie> Apparently it's either the Assumpitions option or the Assuming[] command.
17:58:07 <fizzie> Assuming[x >= 0, Integrate[...]] might do something sensible. Although maybe it's not the sort of "constraint" you want.
17:59:04 <Slereah_> 1/Sqrt[2 \[Pi]]\[ExponentialE]^-(n v^2)/(2 l U) Sqrt[n/(
17:59:05 <Slereah_> l U)] v^2 DifferentialD[v]
17:59:06 <Slereah_> waaaat
17:59:15 <Slereah_> Why is v still there after integration?
17:59:16 <Slereah_> WHYYYYY
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18:15:56 <Warrigal> This is my RNG function: (phi*seed) modulo 1
18:16:09 <Warrigal> seed should be values in [1..100000].
18:16:25 <Warrigal> Chosen sequentially.
18:16:46 <Slereah_> return 4;
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21:47:58 <SimonRC> "Windows got an essential update and decided to reboot your computer without your express permission."
21:48:10 <Warrigal> That's why I have Windows ask for permission first.
21:49:05 <SimonRC> where's that setting?
21:49:27 <Warrigal> The registry somewhere, I think.
21:49:31 <zuff> Whee, I use twitter now.
21:49:34 <zuff> http://twitter.com/zuffix.
21:49:37 <zuff> Add me so I feel worthwhile.
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22:14:17 <SimonRC> well now I know what is worse than trying to stay connected to a machine with a dodgy connection
22:14:48 <SimonRC> trying to stay connected to a machine with a dodgy connection from a machine with an independantly dodgy connection
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22:38:46 <AnMaster> I just ran into a crazy person today, a php coder who likes xhtml but can't stand xml. Does anyone else see the contradiction? (btw: is "does" or "do" the right word there?)
22:39:03 <zuff> does.
22:39:11 <zuff> and they're a php coder. ignore them.
22:39:19 <zuff> but they probably mean <enterpriseXMLDataFormat/>
22:39:50 <AnMaster> zuff, hm that could explain it I guess
22:40:14 <AnMaster> and yes a php coder I know. I was just amazed at the contradiction in what he said, in the way he said it.
22:41:21 <zuff> thanks for the report. :p
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22:43:07 <oerjan> +ul (^^^!^!^!^^!^^)(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^aS
22:43:07 <thutubot> (!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*))(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*) ...too much output!
22:43:12 <oerjan> eek
22:43:21 <oklokok> oerjan: am i to understand you failed?
22:43:25 <oerjan> indeed
22:43:32 <oklokok> oh dear, that's not good.
22:43:35 <oklokok> what did you fail at?
22:43:50 * oklokok has idea for cool language, need to spec tomorrowww
22:43:52 <oerjan> at making the program work on first test run
22:44:14 <oklokok> yes of course, but i'm actually more interested in what it was supposed to do.
22:44:23 <oerjan> rule 110
22:44:40 <oklokok> :D
22:44:47 <oklokok> so cool
22:46:00 <oklokok> btw how do you write these, do you use another representation and compile manually, or just write it in one piece? i'm assuming you don't use another interp for cheating your way into works-on-first-attempt, for obvious reasons
22:46:02 <oerjan> ok time for some unit testing
22:46:11 <oerjan> write it in one piece yeah
22:46:21 <oklokok> okay, that's much cooler
22:46:32 * oklokok always cheats nowadays :<
22:46:35 <oerjan> otherwise, how would you make it brief enough for irc
22:46:54 <oklokok> well you can optimize after compilation
22:47:52 <oerjan> +ul (()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)^(~aS:^):^
22:47:53 <thutubot> (!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*))(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*) ...too much output!
22:49:56 <oklokok> is ^^^!^!^!^^!^^... your input format?
22:50:01 <oerjan> yes
22:50:28 <oklokok> ! is zero, because zeroes are inactive
22:50:41 <oerjan> !^ is 0, ^ is 1. makes case selection easy.
22:50:44 <oklokok> ah.
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22:52:11 <oklokok> ! would make no sense ofc, or you'd have to have an infinite amount of () on the stack when running the first one
22:52:12 <oerjan> +ul (:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^(~aS:^):^
22:52:13 <thutubot> (!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*))(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*) ...too much output!
22:52:38 <oerjan> darn huge subprogram
22:52:40 <oklokok> but with !^, you can keep state on tos, in some form
22:56:13 <oerjan> +ul (()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)^^!!(~aS:^):^
22:56:13 <thutubot> (!^((^)*)(!(!^)*))(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!)()() ...a out of stack!
22:56:57 <oerjan> oh wait of course
22:57:17 <oerjan> on my first test, i forgot all of the post-cleanup before printing
22:58:01 <oklokok> do... did that work?
22:58:04 <oklokok> *so
22:58:14 <oerjan> new try
22:58:24 <oerjan> +ul (^^^!^!^!^^!^^)(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!aS
22:58:24 <thutubot> (!^^!^!^^^^)
22:58:35 <oerjan> much better
22:59:02 <oerjan> (111000101) -> (0100111)
22:59:18 <oerjan> that's correct
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23:00:21 <oklokok> make it show iterations of (^)
23:00:27 <oklokok> ad infinitum
23:02:44 <oerjan> what do you mean (^) ?
23:03:12 <oerjan> also, you will notice that so far it cuts off the edges
23:03:50 <oerjan> +ul (^^^!^!^!^^!^^)(~:aS(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!:aS~:^):^
23:03:51 <thutubot> (^^^!^!^!^^!^^)(!^^!^!^^^^)(!^^!^!^^^^)(^!^^^!^)(^!^^^!^)(^^^)(^^^)(!^)(!^)()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() ...too much output!
23:04:12 <oerjan> oh
23:04:18 <oerjan> +ul (^^^!^!^!^^!^^)(~:aS(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
23:04:19 <thutubot> (^^^!^!^!^^!^^)(!^^!^!^^^^)(^!^^^!^)(^^^)(!^)()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() ...too much output!
23:04:51 <oklokok> plz start @ (^)
23:04:55 <oklokok> i mean
23:05:00 <oklokok> the sequence of just 1
23:05:09 <oerjan> +ul (^)(~:aS(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
23:05:10 <thutubot> (^)()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() ...too much output!
23:05:16 <oklokok> err.
23:05:21 <oklokok> but...
23:05:32 <oerjan> i told you it cuts off the edges
23:05:42 <oklokok> ohhh.
23:05:48 <oklokok> so...
23:06:01 <oklokok> you can't run that in any way? hmm...
23:06:10 <oklokok> +ul (^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1^)(~:aS(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
23:06:10 <thutubot> (^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1^) ...! out of stack!
23:06:18 <oklokok> +ul (^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^)(~:aS(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
23:06:19 <thutubot> (^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^) ...! out of stack!
23:06:28 <oerjan> oklokok: !^, not !
23:06:29 <oklokok> ...
23:06:32 <oklokok> yes yes
23:06:50 <oklokok> +ul (^!^!^!^!^^!^!^!^!^^)(~:aS(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
23:06:52 <thutubot> (^!^!^!^!^^!^!^!^!^^)(!^!^!^^^!^!^!^^)(!^^^^!^!^^)(^!^^!^^)(^^^)(!^)()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() ...too much output!
23:07:06 <oklokok> hmm.
23:07:16 <oklokok> died just before the first interesting step
23:07:23 <oklokok> +ul (^!^!^!^!^!^^!^!^!^!^!^^)(~:aS(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
23:07:24 <thutubot> (^!^!^!^!^!^^!^!^!^!^!^^)(!^!^!^!^^^!^!^!^!^^)(!^!^^^^!^!^!^^)(^^!^^!^!^^)(^^^!^^)(!^^^)(^)()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() ...too much output!
23:09:04 <oklokok> hmmhmm. 1000001000001 -> 00001100001 -> 001110001 -> 1101001 <<< here 1101 is what became out of the 111, right?
23:09:30 <oerjan> just a moment
23:11:39 <oerjan> +ul (^!^!^!^!^!^^!^!^!^!^!^^)(~:(:a~*:((0)S)~*~((1)S)~*):^~^( )S!!(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
23:11:39 <thutubot> 0 1
23:11:45 <oerjan> hmph
23:12:03 <oklokok> making it output in binary?
23:12:07 <oerjan> yes
23:12:20 * SimonRC gives up for this evening.
23:12:22 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
23:12:24 <oerjan> oh right
23:12:32 <oerjan> +ul (^!^!^!^!^!^^!^!^!^!^!^^)(~:(:a~*:((0)S)~*~(!(1)S)~*):^~^( )S!!(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
23:12:32 <thutubot> 0 1
23:12:42 <oklokok> btw. if it's not too much trouble, i suggest making it not cur things, i mean (^) is the only thing i've seen 110 run on, that's what i wanna see.
23:12:51 <oklokok> *cut things
23:13:02 <zuff> who wants to figure out the most elegant way to do this ul arith system:
23:13:04 <oklokok> you can make it *cure things though
23:13:13 <zuff> a(b)2^
23:13:13 <zuff> is
23:13:15 <oerjan> the alternative is growing it
23:13:17 <zuff> abb
23:13:32 <oklokok> oerjan: that's okay imo.
23:13:46 <oerjan> but first output
23:13:57 <oklokok> although you can prolly just grow in one direction, because, well, 110.
23:13:58 <oerjan> (also, wrapping, when i get around to it)
23:17:27 <oerjan> oh right
23:19:22 <oerjan> +ul (^!^!^!^!^!^^!^!^!^!^!^^)(~:(:a~*:((0)S)~*~(!(1)S)~*):a~*~*^( )S!!(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
23:19:26 <thutubot> 1000001000001 00001100001 001110001 1101001 11101 011 1 ...too much output!
23:20:20 <oklokok> yeah okay looks like it works, somewhat.
23:20:33 <oerjan> +ul (^)(~:(:a~*:((0)S)~*~(!(1)S)~*):a~*~*^( )S!!(!^!^)~*(!^)*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
23:20:37 <thutubot> 1 11 111 1101 11111 110001 1110011 11010111 111111101 1100000111 11100001101 110100011111 1111100110001 11000101110011 111001111010111 1101011001111101 11111111011000111 110000001111001101 1110000011001011111 11010000111011110001 111110001101110010011 1100 ...too much output!
23:26:48 <oerjan> (^^^^^!^!^!^^^!^^^^!^!^^!^!^^^)(~:(:a~*:((0)S)~*~(!(1)S)~*):a~*~*^( )S!!(!^!^)~*(!^)*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
23:26:52 <oerjan> er
23:26:52 <oerjan> +ul (^^^^^!^!^!^^^!^^^^!^!^^!^!^^^)(~:(:a~*:((0)S)~*~(!(1)S)~*):a~*~*^( )S!!(!^!^)~*(!^)*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
23:26:56 <thutubot> 111110001101110010011 1100010011111010110111 11100110110001111111101 110101111110011000000111 1111111000010111000001101 11000001000111101000011111 111000011001100111000110001 1101000111011101101001110011 11111001101110111111011010111 1100010111110111000011 ...too much output!
23:27:38 <oerjan> +ul (^^^^^!^!^^^!^^^^!^^^^^^^!^^^!^^!^^^^)(~:(:a~*:((0)S)~*~(!(1)S)~*):a~*~*^( )S!!(!^!^)~*(!^)*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
23:27:41 <thutubot> 11111001101110111111011010111 110001011111011100001111111101 1110011110001110100011000000111 11010110010011011100111000001101 111111110110111110101101000011111 1100000011111100011111111000110001 11100000110000100110000001001110011 1101000011100011011100000 ...too much output!
23:28:20 <oerjan> when that long, irssi now wraps them under each other
23:28:51 <oklokok> hey cool
23:28:52 <oerjan> hm although the growing to the left makes it shift
23:29:33 <oklokok> just mirror the rules
23:29:53 <oklokok> i'm sure that's trivial ;)
23:30:18 <oerjan> might be simpler to reverse printing, actually
23:32:59 <oerjan> +ul (^^^^^!^!^^^!^^^^!^^^^^^^!^^^!^^!^^^^)(~:(())(:a~*:((0)~*)~*~(!(1)~*)~*):a~**~*^( )*S!!(!^!^)~*(!^)*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
23:33:00 <thutubot> !(1)~*(:a~*:((0)~*)~*~(!(1)~*)~*):a~*:((0)~*)~*~(!(1)~*)~* !(1)~*(:a~*:((0)~*)~*~(!(1)~*)~*):a~*:((0)~*)~*~(!(1)~*)~* !(1)~*(:a~*:((0)~*)~*~(!(1)~*)~*):a~*:((0)~*)~*~(!(1)~*)~* ...too much output!
23:33:20 <oerjan> fnord
23:33:39 <oerjan> +ul (^^^^^!^!^^^!^^^^!^^^^^^^!^^^!^^!^^^^)(~:(())(:a~*:((0)~*)~*~(!(1)~*)~*):a~**~*^!!( )*S(!^!^)~*(!^)*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
23:33:42 <thutubot> 11101011011111101110110011111 101111111100001110111110100011 1110000001100010111000111100111 10110000011100111011001001101011 111110000101101011111011011111111 1000110001111111100011111100000011 11001110010000001100100001100000111 111010110110000011101100011100001011 ...too much output!
23:37:15 <oerjan> of course changing the rules is also trivial, since about one line is a rule table
23:59:23 -!- olsner_ has quit ("Leaving").
2008-12-12
00:35:55 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird.
00:37:28 <oklokok> you think you're so tough.
00:37:36 <oklokok> but let me tell you something
00:37:49 * oklokok tries to come up with something to tell you
00:38:04 <oklokok> i just ate meatballs
00:40:18 <oerjan> whose balls?
00:40:34 <oklokok> my balls
00:40:38 <oerjan> ouch
00:40:41 <oklokok> i bought them with my money
00:40:44 <oklokok> and then i ate them
00:40:47 <oklokok> with ketchup
00:53:19 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol.
00:53:41 * oklopol contributes to the discussion
00:54:08 * oerjan raises an obscure point
00:55:07 * oklopol called your bluff
00:55:10 <oklopol> *calls
00:56:16 * oerjan references a (locally) well-known example from Botswana
00:57:33 * oklopol dances around the example, then normalizes it
00:58:18 * oerjan pokes oklopol with a stick =====
00:58:23 <oerjan> (bamboo)
00:59:08 <oklopol> are you making a new swatter? :\
00:59:44 <oerjan> nothing wrong with my old one -----###
01:00:25 <oklopol> good, good
01:00:58 <oklopol> i mean, non-elastic shaft = pain^2
01:01:15 <oerjan> ic
01:08:12 <oklopol> was that like "hmm... you're right... /me reconsiders"
01:09:47 <oerjan> oh i think that can explain why my saucepan was never very popular
01:09:58 * oerjan hits oklopol with it ===\___/
01:10:50 * oerjan then swats oklopol -----###
01:11:02 * oklopol calls mom
01:11:44 <oerjan> would you say the saucepan is (1) better than the swatter (2) worse than the swatter (3) equally good (4) oh, the pain, the pain
01:12:38 <oerjan> won't your mom be annoyed when you call in the middle of the night?
01:12:59 <oklopol> oerjan: why would you ask that, you know perfectly well i'm going to answer (5).
01:13:12 <oklopol> my parents are never annoyed
01:13:19 <oerjan> ah right, (5) please do it again
01:13:31 * oerjan happily obliges ===\___/
01:13:31 <oklopol> especially my mom
01:13:48 <oklopol> :'(
01:14:57 <oerjan> i can promise you nothing but blood, sweat and tears. especially the first.
01:22:18 <oklopol> i think i should go now
01:22:30 <oklopol> i mean, going is what i do best
01:22:51 <oerjan> also, avoiding going
01:22:59 <oerjan> those two are clearly on the top
01:23:00 <oklopol> yes
01:23:05 <oklopol> yeah
01:23:13 <oklopol> buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut i'm pretty tired
01:23:17 <oklopol> so i don't think it'll be a problem
01:23:21 <oklopol> as you can clearly see
01:24:57 <oklopol> err ->
01:43:05 <oerjan> +ul (()())(:~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^)(^!^!^!^)^(~aS:^):^
01:43:06 <thutubot> ...^ out of stack!
01:43:27 <oerjan> +ul (()())(:~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^)(~aS:^):^
01:43:28 <thutubot> (!(^)~^^)((!^)~^!^)(()()(:~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*) ...a out of stack!
01:43:55 <oerjan> +ul (()())(:~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^)^(~aS:^):^
01:43:55 <thutubot> (:~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*)(!*(^)^(^))(*(!^)^(^))()(^) ...a out of stack!
01:47:05 <oerjan> +ul (()())(:~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**^(~aS:^):^
01:47:06 <thutubot> (!*(^):~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*(:~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*))(*(!^):~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*(:~a*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*))()() ...a out of stack!
01:49:36 <oerjan> +ul (()())(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^)(^!^!^!^)^(~aS:^):^
01:49:37 <thutubot> (!*(^)(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*)(*(!^)(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*)(!^)(^!^!^)(^) ...a out of stack!
01:50:59 <oerjan> +ul (()())(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^)^(~aS:^):^
01:51:00 <thutubot> (!*(^)(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*)(*(!^)(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*)(^)()(^) ...a out of stack!
02:08:44 <oerjan> +ul (^!^!^!^)((()())(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(~aS:^):^
02:08:45 <thutubot> (!^^!^!^!^^) ...a out of stack!
02:09:05 <oerjan> +ul (!^!^!^!^)((()())(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(~aS:^):^
02:09:06 <thutubot> (!^!^!^!^!^!^) ...a out of stack!
02:09:16 <oerjan> +ul (!^!^!^^)((()())(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(~aS:^):^
02:09:16 <thutubot> (^!^!^!^^!^) ...a out of stack!
02:14:51 <oerjan> +ul (^^^^^!^!^^^!^^^^!^^^^^^^!^^^!^^!^^^^)(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(0)S)~*~(!*(^)(1)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(!^!^)~*(!^)*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
02:14:55 <thutubot> 11111001101110111111011010111 11000010111110111000011111111001 11010001111000111010001100000010111 11011100110010011011100111000001111001 11011101011101101111101011010000110010111 11011101111101111110001111111100011101111001 1101110111000111000010011000000 ...too much output!
02:15:04 <oerjan> oh wait
02:15:50 <oerjan> +ul (^^^^^!^!^^^!^^^^!^^^^^^^!^^^!^^!^^^^)(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(0)S)~*~(!*(^)(1)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
02:15:54 <thutubot> 11111001101110111111011010111 00001011111011100001111111100 00011110001110100011000000100 00110010011011100111000001100 01110110111110101101000011100 11011111100011111111000110100 11110000100110000001001111101 00010001101110000011011000111 0011001111101000 ...too much output!
02:16:57 <pikhq> ... Wow.
02:16:58 <oerjan> +ul (^^!^^^^!^^^^^^!^^^^^^^!^!^!^^^^^^^^^!^!^!^^^^!^^^^^!^!^^)(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(0)S)~*~(!*(^)(1)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
02:17:02 <thutubot> 11011101111101111110001111111100011101111001 01110111000111000010011000000100110111001011 11011101001101000110111000001101111101011111 01110111011111001111101000011111000111110000 11011101110001011000111000110001001100010000 1111011101001111100110100111001 ...too much output!
02:17:23 <oerjan> now it does proper wrapping at the edges
02:18:20 <oerjan> now to combine it with yesterday's idea
02:23:28 <oerjan> +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(!^)*)(!!:^(^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
02:23:30 <thutubot> ::^:::^:::::^::::::^^^::::::::^^^:::^::::^^: :^^::^^::::^^:::::^^:^:::::::^^:^::^^:::^^^: ^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^^^^^::::::^^^^^:^^^:: ...too much output!
02:24:01 <oerjan> bah thutubot treats those as double length
02:24:20 <oerjan> oh it reversed it somewhere
02:24:58 <oerjan> +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
02:25:01 <thutubot> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^: ...too much output!
02:27:20 <oerjan> +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(!^)*)(!!:^(^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(^)S)~*~(!*(^)(:)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
02:27:23 <thutubot> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ ^::^^::^^^^::^^^^^::^:^^^^^^^::^:^^::^^^:::^ :::^:::^^^:::^^^^:::::^^^^^^:::::^:::^^ ...too much output!
02:29:23 <oerjan> +ul (:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::^::::::::)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
02:29:26 <thutubot> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::^:::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::^^:::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::^^^:::::::: : ...too much output!
02:44:16 <oerjan> +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()!()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^()!(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^()S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))()!~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
02:44:18 <thutubot> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^:^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^ ...too much output!
02:44:26 <oerjan> oops
02:44:39 <oerjan> +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()!()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^()!(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))()!~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
02:44:41 <thutubot> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^: ...too much output!
02:56:35 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:56:44 -!- puzzlet has joined.
02:59:40 <bsmntbombdood> Warrigal: get bsmnt bot working yet?
03:00:14 <Warrigal> I won't be able to continue for a while.
03:04:25 <bsmntbombdood> lame
03:24:08 -!- oerjan has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:25:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
03:28:05 -!- Warrigal has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
03:28:07 -!- Warrigal has joined.
03:43:37 <oerjan> +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()()())(:a~*:(*~(:)*~(!^))~*~(!*~(^)*~(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~( )*S~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
03:43:40 <thutubot> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^^^^^ ...too much output!
03:58:41 <oerjan> +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^((()())(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!(()(:a~*:((:)*)~*~(!(^)*)~*):a~*^)~*^aS
03:58:42 <thutubot> (!(^)*(:a~*:((:)*)~*~(!(^)*)~*):a~*:((:)*)~*~(!(^)*)~*)
03:59:16 <oerjan> +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^((()())(:a~*:(*(!^))~*~(!*(^))~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!(()(:a~*:((:)*)~*~(!(^)*)~*):a~*^)~*^!!aS
03:59:17 <thutubot> (:^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^)
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11:20:46 <AnMaster> ais523, hi
11:20:52 <AnMaster> ais523, see /msg iirc
11:20:54 <ais523> hi
11:20:57 <ais523> and yes, I've seen it
11:21:11 <ais523> also, the whole "gerund" thing came up in #esoteric a while back
11:21:16 <AnMaster> I don't remember it, since I reconnected to the bnc a few times since then
11:21:19 <ais523> I think you were in that conversatoin
11:21:24 <AnMaster> ais523, ah hm
11:21:28 <AnMaster> sounds familiar now
11:21:33 <ais523> basically, a gerund is a word ending "-ing" that's a noun not a verb
11:21:38 <ais523> or adjective
11:21:44 <AnMaster> like "ending"?
11:22:00 <ais523> well, the problem is words ending -ing could be either, it was a verb in that sentence
11:22:16 <ais523> but, say, words like "programming" referring to the subject in general, rather than in sentences like "I am programming"
11:24:08 <ais523> "gerund"'s a real English word, it just doesn't come up very often
11:25:33 <AnMaster> hm
11:43:49 <fizzie> Quite a lot of languages have an almost identical, borrowed-from-latin word for it. Finnish has "gerundi", and I think I can count the situations I've seen it with the fingers of one hand.
11:44:17 <fizzie> Even one hand after a (hypothetical) gruesome accident might suffice.
12:05:12 <oklopol> havaitsen liioittelemista, fizzie.
12:07:52 <oklopol> oh
12:08:03 <oklopol> you meant the number of times you've seen the word "gerundi"?
12:08:35 <oklopol> i mean i don't think gerunds are very uncommon in finnish
12:09:24 <oklopol> (havaitsen liioittelemista = i notice exaggeration, joke being (i think) liioittelemista is a gerund itself)
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12:49:23 <fizzie> Yes, I meant the word itself.
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12:57:12 <oklopol> yarrrrrr
13:09:11 <Deewiant> What about "liioittelu", is that a gerund too?
13:09:32 <Deewiant> (I don't think I've ever seen the word 'gerund' referring to any other language than English.)
13:11:07 <Deewiant> s/any/a word in any/
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13:34:11 <zuff> http://www.sometimesredsometimesblue.com/ a fucking ripoff of notalwaysblue.com!
13:38:10 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breech_birth
13:38:12 <Slereah_> lol
13:38:15 <Slereah_> Oops
13:38:18 <Slereah_> Wrong chan.
13:38:22 <Slereah_> But enjoy this link!
13:40:19 <zuff> Slereah_: Well, why thank you.
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16:56:00 <zuffii> hello
16:56:04 <zuffii> it works!
16:56:12 <zuffii> tee hee
16:56:18 <zuffii> this is great.
16:56:39 * ais523 tries to figure out what zuffii's doing
16:56:58 <zuffii> using a file-system based fifo irc client, http://www.suckless.org/programs/ii.html
16:57:03 <zuffii> tail -f and vim
16:57:16 <zuffii> I tail -f #esoteric/out, and run vim and do this map:
16:57:35 <zuffii> :map w :.w >> in^V<ENTER>dd
16:57:43 <zuffii> (two terminals)
16:58:10 <zuffii> could be a lil more convenient, but haha, this rocks
16:58:23 <ais523> wouldn't cat work better?
16:58:41 <zuffii> not really, I get vim navigation commands and stuff
16:58:49 <zuffii> also, when I hit <ESC>w to send, it blanks the file
16:59:03 <zuffii> if I made vim one-line at the bottom of the tail -f, and bound it to enter instead...
16:59:22 <zuffii> test
16:59:24 <zuffii> :)
16:59:42 <zuffii> Wonder if this works.
17:00:57 <zuffii> test
17:01:00 <zuffii> okay, this is maybe better:
17:01:02 <zuffii> rlwrap zsh -c 'while true; do read a; echo "$a" >>in; clear; done'
17:01:08 <zuffii> has history and stuff
17:01:10 <zuffii> kind of
17:01:23 <zuffii> clear kinda breaks it though.
17:01:23 -!- zuffii has left (?).
17:01:28 <zuff> wtf.
17:05:54 * zuff writes a tcl clone in ~100 lines
17:06:06 <zuff> now taking bets on how many lines it'll actually be!
17:07:00 <ais523> in what language?
17:07:05 <zuff> c
17:07:06 <ais523> if it has arbitrary whitespace, exactly 100
17:07:09 <ais523> so exactly 100 then
17:07:09 <zuff> lol
17:07:18 <zuff> http://antirez.com/picol/picol.c.txt here's tcl in 500 lines
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17:41:37 <Mony> plop
17:41:53 * oerjan redemonstrates
17:41:56 <oerjan> +ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
17:41:58 <thutubot> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^: ...too much output!
17:42:17 <ais523> oerjan: what program is that? rule 110?
17:42:18 <Mony> ^ul(Plop !)S
17:42:20 <oerjan> yep
17:42:23 <Mony> :o
17:42:24 <ais523> Mony: it needs a space
17:42:28 <ais523> after the ul
17:42:32 <Mony> ok
17:42:36 <Mony> ^ul (Plop !)S
17:42:40 <ais523> oerjan: what represents the 0 and 1
17:42:47 <Mony> hum ...
17:42:47 <ais523> Mony: also, probably you want a + for thutubot
17:42:50 <ais523> as fungot isn't here atm
17:42:56 <ais523> ^ = fungot, + = thutubot
17:42:56 <oerjan> : and ^
17:43:08 <oerjan> internally, !^ and ^
17:43:12 <ais523> +ul (^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
17:43:15 <thutubot> ^ : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : ...too much output!
17:43:25 <Mony> +ul (test)S
17:43:26 <thutubot> test
17:43:26 <ais523> +ul (:::::::::^:)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
17:43:28 <thutubot> :::::::::^: ::::::::^^: :::::::^^^: ::::::^^:^: :::::^^^^^: ::::^^:::^: :::^^^::^^: ::^^:^:^^^: :^^^^^^^:^: ^^:::::^^^: ^^::::^^:^^ :^ ...too much output!
17:43:28 <Mony> ok ...
17:44:46 <oerjan> ais523: it prints more if you change it to output 0 and 1, though
17:45:20 <oerjan> for reasons you've already explained as i recall
17:45:59 <ais523> oerjan: presumably because then it also adds an extra 0 at the left-hand end every step?
17:46:23 <oerjan> ais523: um no because thutubot treats : and ^ as double chars
17:46:44 <ais523> oh, ofc
17:46:58 <ais523> I was thinking on the wrong level
17:47:04 <ais523> yep, thutubot's limit counts : and ^ double
17:47:19 <oerjan> i did the adding 0's at the end instead of wrapping too yesterday, but that doesn't format correctly
17:47:52 <oerjan> (well, i'm trying to cheat with irssi's word wrapping to make things come below each other)
17:48:18 <ais523> oerjan: why not put literal newlines into the code you send to the channel?
17:48:19 <oerjan> but : and ^ allows using the same input and output format
17:48:26 <ais523> IIRC that was possible at least in Chatzilla
17:48:37 <ais523> also, : and ^ are interesting choices for logic levels
17:48:44 <ais523> how do you convert them to your internal format?
17:49:02 <oerjan> +ul (:::::::::^:)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^aS
17:49:02 <thutubot> (!^!^!^!^!^!^!^!^!^^!^)
17:50:46 <oerjan> irssi ignores newline after ^V escape
17:51:15 <oerjan> does thutubot +ul print newlines correctly if you do that?
17:51:28 <ais523> it should do, newline's represented as =n internally
17:51:38 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what it sends back to the channel as output though
17:52:02 <oerjan> if it sends it raw, there's a problem
17:52:27 <ais523> could be
17:52:33 <ais523> you could separate a =n and =r in the program
17:52:42 <ais523> and get thutubot to do all sorts of evil by making them come together
17:54:03 <oerjan> anyway the version i put on the wiki uses newline
17:55:27 <oerjan> i chose : and ^ because it is one of the few character pairs that can be decoded out of a list of them. i _think_ : and a is also possible because i tried that a while ago but it was darn complicated and i gave up
17:56:03 <oerjan> but then a couple days ago i realied : and ^ would be easier
17:56:12 <ais523> ah, I see how the decoding would work
17:56:56 <oerjan> i explained it to oklopol the day before yesterday
17:57:37 <ais523> sorry, I've been really non-Internet-bound over the last few days
17:57:42 <ais523> huge RL projects
17:57:53 <ais523> my work paid off though; I got full marks for a recent presentation, which is 75%
17:57:53 <oerjan> ah
17:58:09 <ais523> I'm thinking about complaining because percentages ought to go up to 100, especially when they affect degree classifications
17:58:10 <oerjan> 75% of your grade?
17:58:14 <oerjan> oh
17:58:23 <ais523> oerjan: 75% of the maximum marks = full marks
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18:03:24 <oerjan> well congratulations
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18:12:08 <Slereah_> Fuck I hate C.
18:12:32 <oerjan> well the opposite _might_ be even more disturbing
18:12:35 <ais523> Slereah_: what has it been doing to you?
18:12:46 <Slereah_> NOT WORKING >:|
18:12:55 <Slereah_> I'm trying to check my random number generator
18:13:03 <Slereah_> But generating the distribution is hard.
18:14:37 <Slereah_> I get 0 everywhere, except in two places, where I get 49800 and 50200.
18:14:46 <Slereah_> (It's a normal distribution)
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18:26:15 <fizzie> It is not possible to put literal newlines in an IRC message, because a newline terminates the message.
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18:37:00 <oklofok> what's the ghost kill command?
18:37:02 <oklofok> /ghost somthing?
18:37:04 <oklofok> *something
18:37:06 <oklofok> ais523: what project, is it the one you talked about?
18:38:18 <oerjan> /msg nickserv ghost something something
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18:38:44 <oklopol> thanks
18:38:59 <oklopol> and just fyi i knew that was the syntax.
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19:23:23 <Slereah_> Guys.
19:23:45 <Slereah_> Is it possible to take the cable out of the plug of an ethernet cable, and then put it back in
19:23:50 <Slereah_> Easily, that is.
19:24:07 <Slereah_> I must pass the cable through holes in the wall, and then put the plug back on
19:31:49 <MizardX> 1-2 seconds, then the connections drop
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19:39:17 <bsmntbombdood> Slereah_: you need a tool
19:40:13 <Slereah_> What would that tool be?
19:40:21 <Slereah_> There are many tools in this world.
19:40:34 <Slereah_> From the stick to fish out termites to the LHC.
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20:21:56 <Slereah_> Zuff is ehird? :o
20:24:39 <oklopol> yes
20:35:34 <ehird> yes
20:35:50 <oklopol> no
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21:10:18 <ehird> how do you all feel about the colour
21:10:20 <ehird> YELLOW
21:24:26 <MizardX> +ul (()(#))(~:^:S(_)S*a~^~!a~*~:^):^
21:24:27 <thutubot> #_#_##_###_#####_########_#############_#####################_##################################_####################################################### ...too much output!
21:25:09 <ehird> hmm
22:00:49 <Mony> bye
22:01:00 <oklopol> o
22:01:05 <oklopol> polp
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2008-12-13
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09:28:47 <Mony> hi
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11:19:28 <Slereah-> Hi.
11:21:48 <Mony> salut
12:26:59 <ehird> So.
12:27:03 <ehird> Today I am considering installing plan 9.
12:36:00 <ehird> http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Supported_PC_hardware/index.html It is rather annoying that only chipsets are listed.
12:36:59 <ehird> No wireless mouse/keyboard. Aight.
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12:56:20 <oklopol> have i ever mentioned i have three hands, btw?
13:00:46 <ehird> no
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13:09:16 <oklopol> that's probably not very interesting.
13:09:35 <ehird> oklopol: you would love plan9. it's a programmer's dream
13:09:45 <ehird> "fuck apis, it's all in the filesystem."
13:15:51 <Slereah-> Yo dawg I herd you like functions so we put a function in a function so you can call a function while you call a function
13:16:24 <ehird> oklopol: you can draw circles. in a window. with a few lines of shell script :-
13:16:24 <ehird> :-P
13:16:28 <ehird> using filez
13:44:08 <oklopol> Slereah-: higher-order functions aren't exactly a new idea
13:44:32 <oklopol> ehird: i'm not sure i understand.
13:44:43 <ehird> nobody understands everything, dawg
13:44:43 <Slereah-> oklopol : Why must you ruin a good meme
13:45:35 <oklopol> Slereah-: because i haven't yet acquired my daily energy drinkance.
13:46:03 * ehird burns plan9 disk, considers where his usb mouse/kb is
13:46:11 <oklopol> anyway that would be pretty funny if you had like a higher-order function written in language X in a pic.
13:46:39 <oklopol> easily the funniest instance of that meme
13:46:48 <ehird> i will soon be in unix heaven
13:47:11 <Slereah-> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers6/1225750539403.jpg
13:47:15 <Slereah-> Is this good enough?
13:47:47 <ehird> hmm
13:47:55 <ehird> you know that effect where a sound seems to get continually lower or higher
13:47:57 <ehird> but always stays the same?
13:48:04 <ehird> my cd drive is doing that while burning
13:48:12 <Slereah-> Sort of like a slidewhistle?
13:48:54 <ehird> Burn't.
13:48:56 <ehird> Like a socialist!
13:49:00 <ehird> I do not know how that follows.
13:49:14 <ehird> Time to boot.
13:49:36 <oklopol> Slereah-: yes that's good
13:50:07 <oklopol> hadn't seen dat
13:50:14 <oklopol> or maybe i had
13:50:31 <oklopol> derivation+math isn't as funny as scheme would've been
13:51:04 <oklopol> and also that's nested calls, a higher-order function would be funnier, because you'd have to understand what it does
13:52:46 <Slereah-> But nested calls fit the meme to a T!
13:55:00 <oklopol> i'm not sure... i mean g isn't actually, semantically, inside f; we're actually doing function composition there (assuming x is an unbound variable), they are just both "inside" h, because h is their composition
13:55:11 <oklopol> g and f don't know about each other.
13:55:41 <oklopol> a higher-order function would fit it better, but would be harder to understand, making it a better joke.
13:55:54 <Slereah-> Then DO IT FAGGOT
13:56:10 <oklopol> :|
13:56:27 <oklopol> i'm only a stand-up theoretician.
13:56:50 <Slereah-> heh.
13:58:14 <oklopol> you know i'm the kinda guy who says things others have done are trivial and stupid, but never does anything himself.
13:58:57 <oklopol> i had these ideas for a language that's kinda like J, but the basic unit is a tree, and you have all kinds of searches and traversals as primitives
13:59:21 <oklopol> so you could do something like minimax search for tic-tac-toe with a few chars
13:59:58 <oklopol> so it would be kinda declarative, but all the multiway choices and such would be concrete branchings of the tree you're building lazily
14:00:29 <oklopol> and you'd use different traversals and heuristics to find the goal nodes
14:01:39 <oklopol> also i inherited graphica's graph making scheme, so basically you can name nodes, and nodes with the same name are the same node, even if they are created at different parts of the tree
14:01:53 <oklopol> graphs would have the same traversals, but they'd keep track of alraedy visited nodes
14:02:24 <oklopol> *already
14:02:41 <oklopol> that's all that is public atm, ima buy me some energy
14:02:49 <oklopol> ~~~}
14:24:41 <ehird> beh, usb kb/mouse aren't working with plan9
14:24:46 <ehird> wonder why not
14:57:33 <ehird> mmph
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15:19:10 <ehird> http://xrl.us/o3bxa
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2008-12-14
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00:59:58 <ehird> ok, the rc shell is my new favourite imperative scripting language
01:00:01 <ehird> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/rc.html
01:05:21 <oklofok> why so
01:05:41 <ehird> oklofok: it's really really really simple.
01:05:52 <ehird> i picked it up in like 3 seconds frsrs
01:15:30 <oklofok> it looks pretty simple
01:15:44 <oklofok> (a pretty deep comment, i know!)
01:16:51 <Warrigal> Now, on an ordinary computer, the basic memory options available are read from address and write to address, with nothing like copy this address range to this address range, right?
01:17:14 <ehird> oklofok: also the duff's device guy made it
01:17:19 <ehird> Warrigal: i guess.
01:17:23 <oklofok> Warrigal: what do you mean basic?
01:17:36 <oklofok> in the os, in the hardware, in the software?
01:17:44 <Warrigal> oklofok: in the hardware, I guess.
01:17:56 <oklofok> Warrigal: x86 has stuff like rep
01:18:15 <Warrigal> What does rep do?
01:18:30 <oklofok> and io is often done outside the cpu, moving lots of stuff, then doing an interrupt
01:18:38 <oklofok> rep repeats a command until cx =0
01:18:41 <oklofok> *cx = 0
01:19:05 <oklofok> or something like that, i'm really an algorithmician, so take this with a salt of wine.
01:19:34 <Warrigal> Is it possible to do a more complex memory option than read-from-address and write-to-address in better asymptotic time than by using those two operations?
01:20:30 <oklofok> better asymptotic time than constant time?
01:20:36 <oklofok> somehow i doubt that.
01:21:00 <oklofok> well, i'm not sure what you mean by "complex memory option"
01:22:28 <oklofok> aaand, also x86 has sse, streaming simd extensions, single instruction multiple data, which i assume has something to do with doing many operations at once, thus allowing, at least as an interface to the programmer, to move a lot of stuff at once.
01:22:33 <Warrigal> Something like copying one address range to another, which would take linear time using read-from-address and write-to-address.
01:22:53 <Warrigal> That only takes cube root time if your memory is cube-shaped. :-P
01:22:55 <oklofok> i have no idea how x86 shit is actually run... or well, at least not how sse works
01:23:06 <Warrigal> Hmm.
01:23:48 <oklofok> but usually x86 turns its complex instructions into a certain kind of microcode, which is more like a risc
01:24:44 * Warrigal nods
01:25:43 <oklofok> trying to make some sense out of the mess.
01:26:03 <oklofok> x86 is no doubt the ugliest thing that ever existed
01:26:12 <oklofok> so, how about the sleep?
01:26:22 <oklofok> yes i think it should come into existance right about now.
01:26:23 <oklofok> ->
01:27:05 <oklofok> <-
01:27:09 <oklofok> and as for running times...
01:27:20 <oklofok> rep usually runs slower than just making an explicit loop
01:27:32 <oklofok> sse, on the other hand, is very fast
01:27:43 <oklofok> so it might be they do some kinda optimization shit.
01:27:46 <oklofok> i should look into that
01:28:05 <oklofok> keep your enemies even closer and all that
01:28:07 <oklofok> ->
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01:55:12 <revcompgeek> I just made the page for a language I created recently
01:55:29 <revcompgeek> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Karma
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03:48:58 * Warrigal ponders Bloom filters
03:52:59 <Warrigal> A 1-mebibit Bloom filter has 2^20 positions, each addressable with 20 bits. A SHA-1 hash is 160 bits, so you can address 8 positions with it. If half of the positions are set (which probably happens once you've put 2^17 to 2^18 things in it), the probability of a false positive is 1 in 2^8.
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09:28:58 <Mony> hi
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09:45:47 <oklopol> hi
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15:22:24 <serg> lo
15:22:33 <serg> i study brainfuck!
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15:22:55 <Slereah-> Got an exam on it this week?
15:23:06 <serg> yeahhhhh )
15:23:35 <serg> wanna code sqrt_n(n, num)
15:24:06 <serg> i mean root_n(n,num) :)
15:24:22 <serg> nibodi has coded it ?
15:24:59 <serg> Slereah-: has u ?
15:25:06 <Slereah-> You can check here for useful stuff : http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms
15:25:12 <Slereah-> I don't do too much Brainfuck.
15:26:37 <serg> thx
15:31:37 <serg> i think brainfuck can be useful for data compression needs
15:31:49 <serg> Slereah-: what do u thinks about?
15:32:42 <serg> Slereah-: are there any good optimizers for purposes like printing string of ASCII symbols
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15:36:11 <mrChlens> Slereah-: ?
15:36:12 <Slereah-> As said, I'm no Brainfuck buff
15:36:31 <mrChlens> Slereah-: maybe other langs ?
15:37:03 <Slereah-> Depends.
15:37:09 <Slereah-> What are you looking for?
15:37:41 <mrChlens> want to find applications for skills in brainfucking :D
15:41:39 <Slereah-> I think the answer is "none".
15:42:22 <Asztal> there used to be a bot in this channel that could generate programs that print strings (EgoBot?)
15:42:44 <Slereah-> Yes there were.
15:42:49 <Slereah-> Also another one, no?
15:42:55 <Slereah-> Or was it only Underload?
15:43:14 <Slereah-> +ul (()(#))(~:^:S(_)S*a~^~!a~*~:^):^
15:43:16 <thutubot> #_#_##_###_#####_########_#############_#####################_##################################_####################################################### ...too much output!
15:43:19 <Slereah-> :D
15:43:34 <Slereah-> +bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
15:43:37 <Slereah-> No?
15:43:42 <mrChlens> it's no brainfuck
15:43:59 <zuff> underload is way better than brainfuck.
15:43:59 <mrChlens> :D
15:44:01 <Slereah-> Yes, it's underload
15:44:14 <Slereah-> Well, it's less overused.
15:44:14 <mrChlens> +bf ab
15:44:21 <Slereah-> Also there's a lot of "aSS" in it
15:44:23 <zuff> protip: use ^bf
15:44:29 <zuff> except fungot ain't here
15:44:29 <Asztal> I also seem to remember reading that oklopol made a genetic algorithm that functioned like bf_txtgen... possibly
15:44:32 <Slereah-> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
15:44:34 <mrChlens> ^bf aa
15:44:56 <zuff> fungot
15:44:57 <zuff> ain't
15:44:58 <zuff> here
15:45:07 <Slereah-> Also aa isn't BF at all :o
15:45:16 <mrChlens> i know
15:45:29 <mrChlens> i need bot that generate brainfuck code for my string!
15:45:45 <Slereah-> It might be underload, though
15:45:45 <mrChlens> and maybe optimize the code
15:45:47 <Slereah-> +ul aa
15:45:48 <thutubot> ...a out of stack!
15:45:53 <Slereah-> :D
15:45:56 <mrChlens> ))
15:46:10 <mrChlens> +ul a
15:46:10 <thutubot> ...a out of stack!
15:46:13 <Asztal> http://esolangs.org/wiki/EgoBot has a bf_txtgen command
15:46:16 <mrChlens> +ul 1
15:46:19 <zuff> egobot is dead
15:46:23 <zuff> long death egobot
15:46:27 <mrChlens> )
15:46:38 <Slereah-> mrChlens : http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants
15:46:49 <Slereah-> Just for single chars, but can be useful
15:46:51 <Asztal> I imagine it still works, though? (Or at least you could copy the bf_txtgen code)
15:47:04 <zuff> egobot requires some process serialization module
15:47:09 <zuff> that works on like one version of the linux kernel
15:47:13 <SimonRC> heh
15:47:14 <zuff> bf_txtgen is in java though
15:48:53 <Asztal> eww :(
15:49:24 <mrChlens> Slereah-: your constants don't contain subloops
15:49:29 <zuff> Asztal: you use microsoft software, you can't complain about java :P
15:49:33 <zuff> mrChlens: not "his"
15:49:38 <Asztal> yes, well, that's eww too :)
15:49:58 <mrChlens> zuff: don't know whose
15:50:04 <zuff> mrChlens: ours :P
15:50:08 <mrChlens> ok
15:50:09 <zuff> but no, no subloops
15:50:11 <zuff> so? :P
15:50:28 <mrChlens> so it can be less than 20 ops
15:50:38 <mrChlens> for big numbers
15:50:44 <zuff> huh?
15:53:28 <mrChlens> what does mean "huh" ?
15:53:36 <zuff> i don't get what you meant
15:54:23 <zuff> tit for tat:
15:54:48 <zuff> (0 = silent, 1 = talk)
15:55:10 <zuff> echo 1; while() {read a; echo $a}
15:55:20 <zuff> I don't know why I wrote that either.
15:55:47 <SimonRC> um, tft starts with co-operation
15:55:55 <zuff> oh, oops
15:56:04 <zuff> heh, trust me to fuck up such a simple program
15:56:05 <zuff> :D
15:56:06 <mrChlens> SimonRC: what does mean "tft" ?
15:56:15 <zuff> mrChlens: tit for tat algorithm for iterated prisoner's dilemma
15:56:38 <mrChlens> SimonRC: what does mean "tit" ?
15:56:55 <zuff> tit for tat is an english idiom
15:57:11 <zuff> wikipedia says "equivalent retaliation" as a literal form
15:57:49 <mrChlens> zuff: can u say "retaliation" in more simple form?
15:57:58 <mrChlens> poor english
15:58:09 <SimonRC> don't you have a dictionary?
15:58:13 <zuff> SimonRC: don't be rude
15:58:15 <mrChlens> nope
15:58:22 <zuff> mrChlens: attack in response to an attack
15:58:28 <mrChlens> SimonRC: you're rude !
15:58:28 <SimonRC> mrChlens: ok
15:58:35 <SimonRC> mrChlens: sorry
15:58:41 <mrChlens> :D
15:58:44 <zuff> tit for tat == "if you attack in a certain way, i'll attack back"
15:59:00 <mrChlens> ok now it's clear
15:59:04 <zuff> :)
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16:09:00 <zuff> hmm
16:09:08 <zuff> could you build a cellular automata out of tons of prisoner's dilemmas?
16:10:31 <oklopol> Asztal: yes i did that once, not that it's all that relevant to confirm that.
16:10:53 <zuff> ?
16:11:43 <oklopol> zuff: long story
16:11:49 <zuff> did what
16:12:08 <oklopol> bf txtgen with a genetic algo
16:12:22 <zuff> ah
16:35:01 <zuff> wow. I am really bored.
16:35:17 <Warrigal> I saw a prisoner's dilemma cellular automaton.
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16:39:12 <fizzie> Whoops.
16:39:19 <zuff> hey fiz
16:39:21 <zuff> fizzie:
16:40:55 <oklopol> fizzie: brought fungot here by accident?
16:40:55 <fungot> oklopol: any idea why? might this be accomplished?) can be invaluable. could be funny. :) anyways, i meant ( use dbm.gdbm) or ( type a) a
16:41:24 <oklopol> fungot: i was really hoping fizzie would answer, not you
16:41:25 <fungot> oklopol: some kind of attached fnord feels useful. it works, but if main() were a bigger function that was passed to the fold-function. she's been fnord :) just don't like tdd because it makes proofs easier
16:41:32 <oklopol> also you aren't really answering
16:41:33 <fizzie> oklopol: No, the "whoops" was more of a "whoops, fungot's not here" thing.
16:41:34 <fungot> fizzie: conversely, if you start with a database query dsl, never needed macros for it.
16:41:38 <oklopol> just asking more questions
16:41:48 <zuff> fizzie: he was joking :P
16:42:07 <oklopol> i was half joking, half lying
16:42:35 * zuff ponders.
16:43:26 <oklopol> oooooooooooooo
16:43:55 <zuff> I wonder what a good fungot-esque source text would be.
16:43:56 <fungot> zuff: and nand x nor x too! :p) then performed operations on it, possibly ever, and yet, at least for some platforms an extension library for an app
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17:01:00 <oklopol> Slereah-: this is more like it http://jonex.info/dump/yolisp.jpg
17:02:26 <Slereah-> :D
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17:51:39 <serg> http://www.imagebam.com/image/298ad120881820
17:51:41 <serg> ))
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21:47:19 <Slereah-> What's wrong with that?N
21:47:21 <Slereah-> ft2=fopen("energie.txt", "wt");
21:47:38 <Slereah-> Compiler tells me : no match for 'operator=' in 'ft2 = fopen(((const char*)"energie.txt"), ((const char*)"wt"))'
21:48:12 <serg> Slereah-: type mismatch
21:48:24 <serg> ft2 has wrong type
21:48:45 <Slereah-> Well, it's declared in FILE* ft1,ft2,ft3,ft4;
21:49:39 <serg> headers ?
21:49:49 <Slereah-> wat?
21:50:08 <serg> #include's
21:50:59 <Slereah-> Oh.
21:51:08 <Slereah-> #include <stdio.h>
21:51:08 <Slereah-> #include <math.h>
21:51:38 <serg> is your program in C++ ?
21:52:13 <Slereah-> The compiler is C++, yeah.
21:52:53 <Deewiant> Slereah-: FILE* ft1,*ft2,*ft3,*ft4;
21:53:28 <Deewiant> In C/C++ you have to give the pointer/array types for each one, only the base type is shared
21:54:24 <fizzie> And if you insist on declaring multiple pointers in the same declaration, it might make sense write it as "FILE *ft1, *ft2, *ft3, *ft4;" to be more clear.
21:56:37 <Slereah-> ... oh
21:56:44 <Slereah-> I thought the * was for FILE
21:57:00 <Slereah-> They don't teach us much stuff.
21:58:06 <Slereah-> Fuck.
21:58:09 <Slereah-> Squares everywhere.
21:58:13 <Slereah-> That's not a good sign.
21:59:19 <Slereah-> fprintf(ft1,"%e,", vmoy()); <- why would there be squares everywhere with that?
21:59:30 <Slereah-> I tried vmoy, it works good.
22:08:19 <fizzie> And vmoy() returns a double?
22:08:41 <Slereah-> Yes it does.
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22:33:07 <Slereah-> (No ideas?)
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22:50:53 <fizzie> Nothing based on that one line of code; it should print out a number and a comma to the fopen'd file in ft1 just fine.
22:51:45 <Slereah-> I tried with %f, it works
22:52:00 <Slereah-> Which is weird considering it's supposed to be a double
22:57:49 * Warrigal reads about LISP and its special artificial intelligence capabilities
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23:03:40 <zuff> Warrigal: it has none. it's just symbolic processing
23:03:54 <Warrigal> I was exaggerating.
23:04:15 <Warrigal> Looks like evaluating (A B C D E ...) generally evaluates B, C, D, E, ..., then applies A to the results.
23:04:18 <Slereah-> Well, it's TC, it should be able to do it!
23:04:39 <oerjan> Warrigal: unless A is a macro / special form
23:05:59 <Warrigal> What if A is a list?
23:06:09 <zuff> that's an error.
23:06:13 <oerjan> yep
23:06:31 <oerjan> actually, in scheme the list is evaluated
23:06:37 <oerjan> as an expression
23:06:41 <zuff> well, duh
23:06:42 <zuff> but then it errors
23:06:43 <zuff> :P
23:06:50 <oerjan> not if the result is a function
23:06:50 <Warrigal> So in "evaluates B, C, D, E, ...", I should have put A in there as well.
23:06:57 <zuff> oerjan: lists are not functions
23:07:02 <oerjan> Warrigal: for scheme, not common lisp
23:07:03 <zuff> oh
23:07:04 <zuff> right
23:07:04 <zuff> i see
23:07:07 <zuff> dur, sorry
23:07:09 <Warrigal> Okay.
23:07:13 <oerjan> zuff: i meant a literal list
23:07:17 <zuff> right
23:07:18 <MizardX> ((lambda (x) (* x x)) 3)
23:07:49 <zuff> yes
23:08:05 <oerjan> scheme is cleaner in that way, doesn't treat the first argument more specially than it has to
23:08:20 <oerjan> s/argument/list element/
23:08:48 <zuff> "car"
23:08:48 <zuff> :P
23:09:00 <zuff> Lispers against the unethical treatment of cars
23:09:21 <Warrigal> "each list was a separate object that could be altered independently of other lists and could be distinguished from other lists by comparison operators." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LISP
23:09:29 <zuff> and?
23:09:31 <Warrigal> I find that really scary.
23:09:35 <zuff> umm why
23:09:55 <oerjan> mutable lists are a bit scary
23:10:05 <Warrigal> Mutability is scary.
23:10:06 <zuff> well yeah but nobody uses them :P
23:10:19 <zuff> Warrigal: lisp isn't purely functional
23:10:20 <oerjan> for functional programming you want immutability to be the default
23:11:21 <Warrigal> I can tell you that mathematical expressions are essentially purely functional, and natural languages like English approximate being purely functional.
23:11:46 <zuff> "I eat the cat."
23:12:43 <oerjan> fungot: long time no see
23:12:44 <fungot> oerjan: i know i often fnord and plugs his mouse to have more endurance than men.
23:13:20 <zuff> ...
23:13:26 <zuff> fizzie: is this the "kinky" database
23:13:31 <oerjan> ^ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
23:13:32 <fungot> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^^^^^ :^^^:^^^:^^^^^::^^^^^:^::::^^^^^:::^^^^^:::: ^^:^^^:^^^:::^:^^:::^^^:::^^:::^::^^:::^:::: ^^^^:^^^:^::^^^^^::^^:^::^^^::^^:^^^::^^:::^ :::^^^:^^^:^^:::^:^^^^^:^^:^:^^^^^:^:^^^::^^ ::^^:^^^: ...too much output!
23:14:15 <oerjan> nice fungot, doesn't treat chars as double
23:14:15 <fungot> oerjan: not the other way around. does that matter
23:14:16 <Slereah-> Could one person do some sort of double quine?
23:14:41 <oerjan> +ul (^ul (test)S)S
23:14:41 <thutubot> ^ul (test)S
23:14:47 <oerjan> apparently not
23:14:49 <zuff> olsner: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7jeyz/please_for_the_love_of_guido_stop_using/c06tkyj nice trolling
23:14:52 <Slereah-> Like ^ul [stuff] generates +bf [things], which generates ^ul [stuff]
23:14:55 <oerjan> fungot still ignores thutubot
23:14:56 <fungot> oerjan: and support is a little too much stuff :p anything in the database
23:15:01 <zuff> yeah, fizzie, unignore our bots
23:15:02 <zuff> :<
23:15:24 <oerjan> ^style
23:15:25 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
23:16:26 <oerjan> zuff: There Is No Cabal
23:18:07 <zuff> dear audio software; please cease your fetish with real-looking interfaces with knobs and wires and metal and shit.
23:18:11 <oerjan> Slereah-: also double quines with ul at both ends are easier
23:18:46 <Slereah-> Well, that would be a simple quine, no?
23:19:04 <Slereah-> It just generates itself
23:19:09 <oerjan> Slereah-: not necessarily, you have to change between +ul and ^ul
23:19:25 <oerjan> and you could do other changes too
23:19:25 <Warrigal> ^style agora
23:19:26 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
23:20:08 <Warrigal> fungot, what is the airspeed velocity of the convective derivative of the position relative to the position of the air of an unladen swallow?
23:20:08 <fungot> Warrigal: conforming with the rules
23:20:12 <Warrigal> Oh.
23:20:14 <Warrigal> fungot, you're boring.
23:20:15 <fungot> Warrigal: each active player highest in the context of the rule with the same
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23:20:53 <Warrigal> fungot, can you tell me how to be as smart as you?
23:20:54 <fungot> Warrigal: if a trial judge finds the crime of misrepresentation. all
23:21:06 <Warrigal> I love Agora.
23:21:45 <oerjan> ^ul ((^ul )(+ul ))(~:aS^:Sa~a*S:aSS)~:aS^:Sa~a*S:aSS
23:21:45 <fungot> ((^ul )(+ul ))+ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:aS^:Sa~a*S:aSS)~:aS^:Sa~a*S:aSS
23:21:49 <oerjan> bah
23:22:50 <oerjan> ^ul ((^ul )(+ul ))(~^:Sa~a*:S:aSS)~^:Sa~a*:S:aSS
23:22:50 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )((+ul )(^ul ))(+ul )(^ul )
23:23:02 <oerjan> ^ul ((^ul )(+ul ))(~^:Sa~a*:aS:aSS)~^:Sa~a*:S:aSS
23:23:03 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )((+ul )(^ul ))(+ul )(^ul )
23:23:07 <Slereah-> :D
23:23:13 <oerjan> good grief
23:24:21 <oerjan> +ul (+ul )(:SaS:aS~aSS)(^ul ):SaS:aS~aSS
23:24:22 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(:SaS:aS~aSS)(+ul ):SaS:aS~aSS
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23:24:40 <oerjan> ^ul (^ul )(:SaS:aS~aSS)(+ul ):SaS:aS~aSS
23:24:41 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(:SaS:aS~aSS)(^ul ):SaS:aS~aSS
23:24:41 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(:SaS:aS~aSS)(+ul ):SaS:aS~aSS
23:25:02 <fizzie> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
23:25:02 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
23:25:03 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
23:25:10 <fizzie> I did that quite a long time ago.
23:25:14 <zuff> fizzie: plz make fungot <3 thutubot
23:25:14 <fungot> zuff: the effect of altering the texts of rules,
23:25:27 <fizzie> Why? We'd have a bot-loop in just a couple of seconds.
23:25:45 <zuff> fizzie: just make it stop at 5 lines
23:25:47 <zuff> like it used to
23:26:07 <fizzie> I've never had a working flow-protection like that for non-chat stuff.
23:26:14 <zuff> well add it
23:26:14 <zuff> :P
23:26:24 <fizzie> I'll consider it, but not today.
23:29:54 <oerjan> serg: you can do the text generation of egobot by hand too, you just don't get the automatic optimization.
23:30:18 <oerjan> ok it's a lot of work
23:31:29 <oerjan> but the format is +++++[>++++++>+++>++++++>+++<<<<-]+.>---.etc. where the loop sets up values near the ones you want to print out and the rest just moves between, incrementing and decrementing a little
23:33:59 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<-]>.>+++++.>---..+++.
23:33:59 <fungot> Hemmp
23:34:03 <oerjan> oops
23:34:09 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<-]>.>+++++.>----..+++.
23:34:09 <fungot> Hello
23:34:17 * Warrigal makes sure there isn't a guy named serg who's on his ignore list
23:34:43 <oerjan> nah probably sleeping
23:34:46 <Warrigal> There is a guy named serg, but not on my ignore list.
23:35:05 <oerjan> Warrigal: he asked that question before i entered
23:52:43 * zuff plays around with Propellerhead Reason. http://filebin.ca/gnyobd/durmz.aiff
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2008-12-15
00:01:31 <zuff> :)
00:08:33 * zuff is bored, yeah.
00:09:31 <oerjan> zuff: a gnaff fnord befugle gnip gnop griffleing fnerb
00:09:42 <zuff> I see.
00:09:45 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep").
00:14:22 <zuff> Warrigal: rate my boredity.
00:14:45 <oerjan> on a scale from borgle to fnord
00:14:56 <zuff> yes.
00:14:56 <Slereah-> From borgle to what?
00:15:01 <zuff> to
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00:15:31 <Slereah-> Aw, zuff is wise to us now :(
00:15:36 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:15:39 <Slereah-> Maybe we should try something elsde
00:15:42 <Slereah-> Hey, oerjan.
00:15:50 <oerjan> hey, Slereah-
00:15:59 <Slereah-> I accidentaly a coca cola bottle :(
00:16:09 <oerjan> the WHOLE coca cola bottle?
00:16:15 <Warrigal> http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
00:16:17 <Slereah-> Yeah dude.
00:16:23 <Slereah-> Warrigal : Old :o
00:16:28 <Warrigal> Aww.
00:17:03 <zuff> A true skeptic's annotated bible would be all annotations.
00:17:28 <oerjan> recursive ones.
00:17:52 <Slereah-> I can prove that there is no god
00:18:00 <Slereah-> But the proof can't fit in the margins
00:19:17 <oerjan> or in the universe
00:20:41 * zuff tries to stop listening to http://filebin.ca/gnyobd/durmz.aiff on repeat, to no avail
00:28:44 <zuff> do not listen to it, for it is like tvtropes in the annoyingly-inescapable sense
00:29:00 <Slereah-> I doubt it
00:29:06 <Slereah-> And to prove it, I will listen to it
00:29:12 <Mony> good night
00:29:18 <oerjan> Slereah-: nice to have known you
00:29:31 <Slereah-> Meh.
00:29:36 -!- Mony has quit ("Mouarf....").
00:29:40 <Slereah-> It's bland and vaguely annoying.
00:30:03 <Slereah-> I'll put something with a bit more kick.
00:31:32 <zuff> Slereah-: It's vaguely annoying if you listen to it 500 times in a row
00:31:50 <Slereah-> One time was enough for me.
00:31:52 <zuff> My boredom is eating me from the inside
00:32:03 <Slereah-> My super intelligence can tire of things much more faster.
00:32:53 <Slereah-> zuff : http://uploads.ungrounded.net/161000/161181_ddautta_mask__550x281_.swf
00:33:00 <Slereah-> Now there's something addictive.
01:05:56 <Warrigal> I don't find LISP satisfactory. I want a language that can be run efficiently that's based on rewriting.
01:06:28 <Warrigal> Have they discovered a way to compile efficient programs from Thue yet?
01:15:51 <MizardX> To make an efficient interpreter interpreter for Thue, it needs to keep track of all possible candidate substitutions. For each subtitution, it needs to quickly determine the next set of candidate substitutions.
01:16:38 <Warrigal> I said compile.
01:19:42 <MizardX> Compiling a substitution language means coupling a substitution engine with some data-structure representing the rule-set. It wouldn't be any quicker than an iterpreter after it has loaded.
01:21:34 <Warrigal> Ouch.
01:21:47 <Warrigal> Let's compile subleq, then.
01:22:01 <Warrigal> Into a self-modifying destination, of course.
01:24:52 <oerjan> it seems to me that for both languages the problem is pathological cases. you could try to analyze the program to find limitations on its behavior, but if there was just one case where the compiler couldn't prove decent behavior it would become forced to use an interpreter on the original data structure.
01:25:42 <oerjan> for the entire program. say if there was just one pointer in subleq for which nothing could be said about what values it would take
01:26:20 <oerjan> then that could modify _anything_, ruining all other assumptions, and forcing a full simulation of subleq memory and cpu
01:27:17 <oerjan> you might still do something like befunge compilers though, which recompile whenever something unexpectedly changes.
01:27:38 <oerjan> but then you would need to bundle the compiler itself.
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02:20:30 <Warrigal> x86 and such are self-modifying, aren't they?
02:21:03 <oerjan> given the right memory page settings
02:22:29 <Warrigal> Seems it shouldn't be difficult to translate subleq into any self-modifying assembly language.
02:22:46 <Warrigal> Even if your assembly language isn't self-modifying, the interpreter can be tiny.
02:23:14 <oerjan> as long as you don't demant unbounded cells
02:23:28 <oerjan> but it's the RAM not the language that makes it easy...
02:25:08 <oerjan> *demand
02:26:56 <oerjan> direct compilation can still be hard. note that each instruction contains three cells and there is nothing requiring jumps to be properly aligned ...
02:27:55 <oerjan> so each subleq cell must in principle be prepared to be (1) modified by address (2) used as _any_ part of an instruction
02:30:13 * Warrigal nods
02:34:48 <Warrigal> I think I want to write a relatively convenient language that can be easily compiled into subleq.
02:35:06 <Warrigal> Or compile an existing language into subleq.
02:35:26 <Warrigal> C is The Programming Language, isn't it?
02:36:40 <oerjan> subleq is a bare-bones machine code, but it still contains in principle all that makes machine code easy to compile into
02:37:54 <oerjan> well minus any actual IO
02:42:46 <Warrigal> Implementing multiplication might be interesting.
02:42:59 <Warrigal> Everything else, too.
02:44:07 <oerjan> the 6502/6510 chips had no multiplication
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02:45:03 <Warrigal> Implementing floating point arithmetic would be *really* interesting.
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04:07:17 <MizardX> Warrigal: That's a common exercise in university cources on assembly programming... though in some more common machine-language.
04:08:18 <MizardX> does take some extra effort with only one arithmetic operation
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06:06:06 <olsner> zuff: :)
06:11:05 <bsmntbombdood> subleq is fun
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11:00:42 <Mony> hi
11:01:10 <Asztal> pl0p and good morning
11:20:44 <AnMaster> heh
11:20:52 <AnMaster> that sounds reversed
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16:28:45 <AnMaster> ais523, hi!
16:28:53 <ais523> hi
16:29:04 <AnMaster> ais523, how goes stuff?
16:29:13 <ais523> I was working on gcc-bf again last night
16:29:20 <AnMaster> nice
16:29:23 <ais523> not only does it now have a build system, it has a rerunnable build system
16:29:30 <ais523> i.e. you can do incremental compiles to some extent
16:29:33 <ais523> sort of make-style
16:29:41 <ais523> although atm you have to tell it what you modified by hand
16:30:18 <AnMaster> heh
16:30:25 <AnMaster> very nice
16:30:41 <ais523> also, it's now reached the stage where it's producing partial output
16:30:43 <AnMaster> ais523, can I get a patch against your last release to avoid re-downloading it all?
16:30:56 <AnMaster> ais523, partial output meaning hello world works or?
16:31:07 <ais523> partial output means something's coming out the end which is recognisable as BF
16:31:08 <ais523> but it has gaps in
16:31:13 <ais523> places where there's nothing but should be something
16:31:22 <AnMaster> ah missing routines and such?
16:31:24 <ais523> yes
16:31:28 <zuff> Ode to python:
16:31:30 <zuff> Oh, Python,
16:31:31 <AnMaster> ais523, such as?
16:31:33 <zuff> You will not build,
16:31:34 <zuff> With readline,
16:31:35 <ais523> bitshifts, multiplication, and some types of loop
16:31:37 <zuff> Fuck you Python.
16:31:55 <ais523> there are other unimplemented things like division, but hello world doesn't need that
16:31:57 <AnMaster> zuff, what version of python?
16:32:02 <ais523> just one multiply by 92 for some utterly unknown reason
16:32:09 <zuff> 2.6.1. There's no OS X binary that I can find.
16:32:13 <ais523> my guess is it's the length of some struct that's relevant to the printing code
16:32:26 <AnMaster> zuff, searched their bug tracker?
16:32:33 <zuff> AnMaster: it's not a python bug.
16:32:45 <AnMaster> oh?
16:32:48 <AnMaster> readline bug then?
16:33:08 <AnMaster> ais523, ah right
16:33:13 <zuff> no, it's just that I can't figure out what auto*hell incantations I need to make it find the custom readline I have installed.
16:33:29 <zuff> maybe i'll switch to plan9 and write my own language. with unicorns.
16:33:49 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe you should optimize puts() of a constant string in some strange way into the fastest bf variant, something to do in the future
16:33:58 <AnMaster> iirc gcc got some __builtin_is_const
16:33:59 <AnMaster> or such
16:34:37 <AnMaster> zuff, hm this may be some obvious joke, but... why unicorns?
16:34:38 <ais523> AnMaster: I'll have a library for unstdio'd IO
16:34:47 <ais523> that isn't standard C
16:34:52 <zuff> AnMaster: unicorns build programs without autotools.
16:35:07 <ais523> the problem is, for instance, that puts("Hello, world!") shouldn't output immediately if someone's switched stdout to block-buffered
16:35:16 <AnMaster> interesting zuff
16:35:18 <ais523> or they might have redirected it to a file using freopen, for instance
16:36:04 <zuff> Ode to Python: Python, you suck, because you use autotools, please fix your build system, or I will shoot whoever made it use autotools.
16:36:22 <Slereah-> Hey
16:36:28 <Slereah-> Don't diss python
16:36:33 <AnMaster> ais523, hrrm, I was thinking something like: #define puts(_s) do { __builtin_is_const(_s) { bf variant; } else { __slow_puts(_s); } while(0);
16:36:34 <Mony> hoy
16:36:36 <zuff> Slereah-: autotools.
16:36:37 <Slereah-> Don't make me come out of the vase!
16:36:37 <Mony> i prefer boa
16:36:40 <zuff> you do not know of such things.
16:36:42 <AnMaster> err there are some unbalanced } there
16:36:43 <AnMaster> but anyway
16:36:45 <AnMaster> you get the idea
16:36:56 <Slereah-> Boa is just an GUI for python, no?
16:37:11 <ais523> AnMaster: doesn't work, puts doesn't always aim to stdout
16:37:14 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc system headers sometimes do stuff like that when gcc is aware of it can constant fold stuff. math.h iirc
16:37:19 <ais523> well, the outside stdout
16:37:29 <AnMaster> ais523, ah hm
16:37:29 <ais523> also, imagine this: printf("Hello, "); puts("world!");
16:37:29 <AnMaster> ok
16:37:36 <ais523> surely, the hello should come first?
16:37:43 <AnMaster> ais523, well you would need to flush first yes
16:37:43 <ais523> with your optimisation, the world would come first
16:38:01 <ais523> AnMaster: but that's incorrect too, in theory
16:38:07 <ais523> I'm aiming to model C semantics perfectly with gcc-bf
16:38:16 <ais523> probably I'll have puts, which is the slow version
16:38:18 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, wouldn't the newline that puts() add cause a flush anyway?
16:38:21 <ais523> and __bf_puts if you really want it fast
16:38:31 <ais523> AnMaster: by default, but stdout might be block-buffered at the time
16:38:36 <AnMaster> ah yes
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16:39:00 <AnMaster> ais523, btw I never bothered to check that, how do you change buffering on stdout/stdin
16:39:16 <ais523> setvbuf, IIRC
16:39:17 <ais523> let me check
16:39:40 <AnMaster> ah yes
16:39:41 <AnMaster> indeed
16:41:30 <zuff> Failed to find the necessary bits to build these modules:
16:41:30 <zuff> bsddb185 gdbm linuxaudiodev
16:41:31 <zuff> ossaudiodev readline spwd
16:41:33 <zuff> sunaudiodev
16:41:35 <zuff> DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE
16:41:48 <zuff> R O T I N H E L L
16:42:30 <AnMaster> zuff, looked at --help and/or --help=recursive
16:42:38 <AnMaster> in case it uses nested configure scripts
16:42:42 <zuff> It doesn't.
16:42:48 <AnMaster> hm ok
16:42:58 <AnMaster> time to read configure.ac then
16:42:59 <AnMaster> :/
16:43:06 <AnMaster> or put those in some PATH or such
16:43:10 <AnMaster> does it use pkgconfig?
16:43:18 <zuff> No, time to try the other optio
16:43:19 <zuff> n
16:43:29 <AnMaster> and that option is?
16:43:36 <zuff> (defining CPPFLAGS/LDFLAGS on ./configure with the right paths)
16:44:06 <AnMaster> hm yeah, risky however, it could break modules not expecting those to be defined that way I guess
16:44:06 <zuff> % CPPFLAGS="-I/opt/local/include/" LDFLAGS="-L/opt/local/lib/" ./configure --enable-framework
16:44:11 <zuff> AnMaster: um, how?
16:44:23 <AnMaster> zuff, if the wrong header is selected for something
16:44:32 <zuff> it won't be.
16:44:33 <AnMaster> in the unlikely case that they collide
16:44:38 <AnMaster> in names
16:44:48 <zuff> /opt/local is just like /usr/local.
16:44:51 <zuff> except for MacPorts.
16:44:54 <AnMaster> zuff, also shouldn't that LDFLAGS be LIBS?
16:45:01 <AnMaster> not sure, I have seen both systems
16:45:10 <zuff> ./configure --help says LDFLAGS.
16:45:16 <AnMaster> right
16:45:22 <AnMaster> oh about macports, can't you install python that way?
16:45:34 <zuff> yes. but it doesn't have 2.6.1, I think.
16:45:48 <zuff> also, I'm installing it as an OS X framework so I can use gui apps in a non-x11 manner.
16:45:56 <zuff> and /opt/local/Library/Frameworks is just Weird(TM)
16:45:56 <ais523> why do you need that version in particular, anyway?
16:46:07 <ais523> especially given version 3's out now
16:46:13 <zuff> ais523: version 3 is not ready for production use
16:46:16 <zuff> as it breaks compatibility
16:46:17 <AnMaster> ah right, if it is based on freebsd ports it should be easy to change the port, just a version number variable or so
16:46:28 <zuff> I could use 3.0 if I was a hermit and wrote all my own libraries, sure.
16:46:30 <zuff> But I'm not.
16:46:37 <ais523> zuff: version 2 of Python is not ready for production use as it breaks compatibility with v3
16:46:44 <ais523> "the libraries haven't been written yet" is an acceptable reason
16:46:51 <ais523> but it isn't the same one as "not ready for production use"
16:46:51 <zuff> ais523: all python code in the wild is v2
16:46:55 <ais523> which implies buggy
16:47:02 <zuff> no, it implies unusable for production use
16:47:06 <zuff> because production apps use libraries.
16:47:12 <ais523> not all of them!
16:47:20 <zuff> Python ones do.
16:47:35 <zuff> a python program not using libraries is called a trivial python program
16:49:21 <AnMaster> ais523, I looked at htons, which I remembered used some constant trick, it was a wrapper for this function it turned out: http://rafb.net/p/eZYXTk50.html
16:49:22 <zuff> Now taking bets as to whether it will work or not.
16:49:30 <AnMaster> quite interesting use of GCC specific bits
16:49:32 <Slereah-> IS THE LOVE MACHINE 9000 TRIVIAL? :o
16:49:43 <zuff> Slereah-: yes.
16:49:46 <Slereah-> I guess it is.
16:49:56 <zuff> AnMaster: I vomited.
16:49:57 <Slereah-> But it's the only machine that can love.
16:50:07 <ais523> AnMaster: constant specific tricks are fine IMO for libraries aimed at a specific compiler to use, which is what mine are
16:50:09 <oklofok> hi all you :)
16:50:17 <zuff> hi oklofok
16:50:19 <ais523> I mean, there's an extern void __brkpos; buried in the code to gcc-bf
16:50:19 <AnMaster> zuff, so did I, yet it is very elegant in a odd kind of way
16:50:21 <Slereah-> Hey dude
16:50:29 <AnMaster> zuff, like, say, intercal syslib
16:50:30 <zuff> AnMaster: you owe me a new keyboard
16:50:32 <ais523> OTOH, they mustn't change the semantics of the language
16:50:35 <AnMaster> that is where I expect to find it
16:50:42 <AnMaster> however this was in /usr/include/gentoo-multilib/amd64/bits/byteswap.h
16:50:46 <zuff> Failed to find the necessary bits to build these modules:
16:50:47 <zuff> bsddb185 linuxaudiodev ossaudiodev
16:50:48 <zuff> spwd sunaudiodev
16:50:50 <zuff> YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
16:50:59 <zuff> dear god YES
16:51:05 <AnMaster> zuff, spwd?
16:51:14 <zuff> /etc/shadow access, apparently.
16:51:21 <AnMaster> ah
16:51:22 <zuff> % ls /etc/shadow
16:51:22 <zuff> ls: cannot access /etc/shadow: No such file or directory
16:51:28 <AnMaster> right os x
16:51:30 <zuff> :P
16:51:34 * zuff make install
16:51:38 <ais523> anyway, the intended use of __builtin_constant is to be able to implement something inline if it could be constant-folded, and to use a function if it couldnt'
16:51:47 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed
16:51:52 <ais523> say if it's a massively big complicated expression, you might not want to inline it everywhere
16:51:57 <AnMaster> ais523, and it may sometimes give false negative
16:51:59 <oklofok> http://rafb.net/p/eZYXTk50.html <<< i can't read this without exploding
16:52:03 <ais523> but if it can be constant-folded, you won't lose anything for inlining
16:52:05 <oklofok> what does it do
16:52:09 <AnMaster> I remember reading that a change in last gcc broke kernel due to that
16:52:13 <AnMaster> because kernel misused it
16:52:16 <AnMaster> in the wrong way
16:52:16 <zuff> <autotools> I really think it would be beneficial for you if I listed every single file in the distribution as I copy them over. That would be helpful. Scrollback? What's that?
16:52:28 <zuff> AnMaster: instead of misusing it in the right way?
16:52:42 <ais523> zuff: it isn't misuse if it's only used as an optimisation hint
16:52:44 <AnMaster> zuff, something like that yes :P
16:52:50 <ais523> correct code produces the same result regardless of its return value
16:52:50 <zuff> fuck yessssssss it installed
16:53:03 <zuff> my life is worthwhile
16:53:11 <ais523> just you design the code to be faster or better in some other way depending on whether the return value is true or fals
16:53:13 <ais523> *false
16:53:21 * zuff installs pip to avoid the easy_install horror of his preivous install
16:53:47 <AnMaster> ais523, http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0811.3/00131.html
16:53:50 <AnMaster> that seems to be it
16:54:09 <zuff> Safari, I know I have 100 tabs open, but please don't be slow.
16:54:10 <zuff> :P
16:54:18 <ais523> Safari?
16:54:24 <AnMaster> ais523, OS X browser
16:54:26 <ais523> oh, you're using OSX, it actually works there
16:54:29 <zuff> heh
16:54:34 <AnMaster> haha
16:54:34 <zuff> apple are awful at making windows software :P
16:54:38 <ais523> (/me has heard horror stories about Safari for Windows)
16:54:46 <zuff> ais523: it uses OS X's text rendering
16:54:49 <zuff> from what I can tell
16:54:53 <zuff> it even renders buttons OS X style
16:54:54 <AnMaster> zuff, do you mean safari is slow with 100 tabs?
16:54:57 <ais523> also, Safari has massive security bugs in Windows
16:54:58 <zuff> i think they ported the widget set
16:55:02 <ais523> or did last I heard
16:55:10 <zuff> AnMaster: with only 1gb of ram, and pages with shitty flash ads and crap, ye
16:55:10 <zuff> s
16:55:11 <AnMaster> if yes, is there any other browser that isn't slow with that many tabs?
16:55:15 <ais523> like the carpet-bomb bug
16:55:16 <zuff> and no
16:55:24 <zuff> firefox is memory leak deluxe
16:55:40 <AnMaster> zuff, I don't know about safari, but for firefox there is adblock and such, I assume something similar exists for safari
16:55:52 <AnMaster> should be able to block flash unless you allow it
16:56:05 <ais523> AnMaster: that link's relevant, http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=36359 is more useful to find out about what happened though
16:56:06 <zuff> or I could close tabs that I'll never use again
16:56:08 <zuff> I need a tab GC
16:56:22 <ais523> M-x kill-some-buffers, Safari-style?
16:56:24 <zuff> right now when my tabs hit their limit I just restart the program
16:56:24 <AnMaster> ais523, right, I just did a quick google
16:56:33 <zuff> so what I need is a simple algorithm I can do manually to gc tabs :P
16:56:38 <ais523> although kill-some-buffers just prompts you for everything that you have open
16:56:49 <zuff> ais523: haha, imagine an interp doing that
16:56:55 <zuff> "Do you want to free this object? It has 4 references."
16:57:00 <AnMaster> haha
16:57:11 <AnMaster> ais523, kill-all-buffers then?
16:57:21 <AnMaster> if that exists
16:57:26 <ais523> kill-all-buffers would be ridiculous if it existed
16:57:30 <ais523> you may as well just restart Emacs
16:57:31 <AnMaster> ais523, oh?
16:57:44 <AnMaster> kill-all-abbrevs
16:57:46 <AnMaster> wtf is that?
16:57:59 <zuff> [ehird:~] % python
16:57:59 <zuff> Python 2.6.1 (r261:67515, Dec 15 2008, 16:48:17)
16:58:00 <zuff> [GCC 4.0.1 (Apple Computer, Inc. build 5363)] on darwin
16:58:02 <zuff> success
16:58:04 <AnMaster> what is an abbrev in emacs, it sometimes asked me if I wanted to save them
16:58:10 <AnMaster> but *shrug* no idea what they are
16:58:17 <oerjan> kill-all-humans
16:58:19 <AnMaster> zuff, that gcc is quite old heh
16:58:29 <ais523> AnMaster: when you turn on abbrev minor mode, certain things expand when you type space
16:58:32 <zuff> AnMaster: I'm pretty sure it's not GPL3, either. :P
16:58:34 <ais523> intercal-mode uses it by default
16:58:42 <zuff> does the goodness/badness of those two cancel each other out?
16:58:43 <ais523> so you type ab<space> and get ABSTAIN, for instance
16:58:46 <AnMaster> ais523, um, some form of code completion?
16:58:48 <ais523> yes
16:58:54 <ais523> completion on space, to be precise
16:58:55 <AnMaster> ais523, how flexible is it?
16:59:07 <ais523> you can script what abbreviations expand to
16:59:08 <zuff> Does that mean, that if someone lends you, say m20, and you already have m10, you can destroy m30 (m20 of which is THEIR money, remember), without their consultation?
16:59:12 <zuff> oops
16:59:14 <zuff> wrong channel
16:59:27 <AnMaster> ais523, dynamically generated lists? like code completion in a modern IDE
16:59:28 <AnMaster> ?
16:59:34 <ais523> e.g. do<space>ab<space> expands to DO ABSTAIN 3/4 of the time, PLEASE DO ABSTAIN 1/4 of the time
16:59:44 <ais523> AnMaster: it has to be set up by the major mode or by something else
16:59:54 <ais523> I don't know of any modes with dynamically generated lists for abbrev-mode
17:00:05 <ais523> although VHDL-mode uses dynamically generated lists for tab-complete
17:00:07 <AnMaster> with context sensitive parameter docs shown
17:00:13 <ais523> which is the same thing just expanding on a different keypress
17:00:20 <AnMaster> also pop up menus when several alternatives exist
17:00:21 <ais523> no context sensitive param docs there yet though
17:00:25 <ais523> although there's no reason why not
17:00:30 <AnMaster> ais523, Kdevelop has it
17:00:36 <AnMaster> a bit buggy though in my experience
17:00:52 <AnMaster> modelled after one thing microsoft actually got right: intellisense
17:00:52 <ais523> and it tab-completes cmd-style, i.e. guesses which one you want heuristically and you can press tab more times to get other options
17:01:08 <zuff> Whee, IDLE works!
17:01:28 * zuff installs pip
17:01:34 <AnMaster> How do you know it works?
17:01:38 <zuff> AnMaster: I tested it.
17:01:44 <zuff> SOMETIMES THAT HELPS :D
17:01:48 <AnMaster> you could argue working is not being idle!
17:01:53 <AnMaster> ;P
17:02:01 <zuff> AnMaster: please, leave the puns to oerjan
17:02:06 <zuff> you might be held responsible if I go on a shooting spree
17:02:25 <ais523> actually, that was a good pun
17:02:25 <AnMaster> zuff, I have decided to specialize in truly bad jokes on irc
17:02:37 <AnMaster> ais523, ouch, really? :/
17:02:38 <ais523> actually good, as opposed to less-bad
17:02:43 <zuff> AnMaster: thanks, now I have a plea of insanity
17:02:47 <zuff> see you suckers in hell
17:02:51 * zuff shooting people ->
17:03:01 <AnMaster> ais523, oh I guess it overflowed the range then
17:03:02 * zuff to death ->
17:03:04 <AnMaster> downwards
17:03:19 <ais523> zuff: if IRC makes you so suicidal, yuu could always try not being in IRC
17:03:29 <ais523> and yes, traditionally in English there are no good puns, only bad puns and worse puns
17:03:36 <zuff> ais523: homicidal too!
17:03:38 <ais523> but I actually think good puns are possible, and rather like them
17:03:41 <zuff> fun for all the family!
17:04:12 <AnMaster> ais523, the worst kind is mixing English and Swedish so that you have to go back and forth between English and Swedish a few times
17:04:33 * zuff wonders why .bash_profile has his .profile stuff and runs when zsh does
17:04:38 <zuff> my shell setup is weird
17:04:46 <ais523> AnMaster: so only a bilingual person would get the pun, and even then only when you explained it?
17:05:51 <AnMaster> ais523, well yeah. It was a joke based on the "nick name" of a law some time ago, and pedestrians, the law was about car drivers having to stop to let pedestrians over at crossings (right word?) without any traffic lights
17:06:25 <AnMaster> due to the white stripes of crossings, on the black asphalt it was known as "the zebra law"
17:06:43 * AnMaster tries to remember how the joke began
17:06:54 <AnMaster> hrrm
17:07:09 <ais523> AnMaster: "zebra crossing" is the official English name for that sort of crossing, we have them in the UK too
17:07:52 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway the joke was based on some Swedish word sounding similar to "pedestrian", but meaning something else
17:08:04 <AnMaster> and then translating back and forth twice
17:08:06 <AnMaster> or so
17:08:23 <AnMaster> reaching the conclusion that it meant zebra
17:10:05 <zuff> AnMaster: I think the only resolution for this is for you to repent to god by sacrificing a goat.
17:10:13 <zuff> Otherwise your punishment in the afterlife will be grave indeed.
17:10:18 <AnMaster> zuff, tricky, I'm not religious
17:10:28 <AnMaster> rather I'm an atheist
17:10:28 <oerjan> zuff: ARGH
17:10:32 <zuff> AnMaster: become religious
17:10:36 <zuff> or you shall suffer
17:10:43 <zuff> I recommend scientology!
17:10:52 <oerjan> AnMaster: then it will be _just_ grave
17:10:59 <zuff> oerjan: ...
17:11:01 <zuff> AHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
17:11:10 <AnMaster> zuff, then I would select Buddhism, which IMO, is probably one of the more sane religions
17:11:10 <zuff> i hate you oerjan
17:11:21 <zuff> AnMaster: no. it must be scientology. otherwise it won't work.
17:11:26 <zuff> trust me on this.
17:11:41 <AnMaster> why on earth should I trust you?
17:11:46 <zuff> i am l ron hubbard
17:11:50 <AnMaster> who?
17:12:06 <zuff> science fiction writer.
17:12:13 <zuff> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard
17:13:05 <AnMaster> "Died January 24, 1986 (aged 74)"
17:13:07 <AnMaster> err
17:13:10 <AnMaster> right, whatever
17:13:19 <zuff> [[who devised a self-help technique called Dianetics and philosophy known as Scientology,]]
17:13:26 <AnMaster> yes I saw that too
17:13:27 <zuff> you see what that was?
17:13:30 <zuff> that was a joke there.
17:13:36 <zuff> 17:11 zuff: AnMaster: no. it must be scientology. otherwise it won't work.
17:13:36 <zuff> 17:11 zuff: trust me on this.
17:13:37 <AnMaster> zuff, yes I saw that
17:13:37 <AnMaster> indeed
17:13:37 <zuff> 17:11 AnMaster: why on earth should I trust you?
17:13:39 <zuff> 17:11 zuff: i am l ron hubbard
17:13:40 <AnMaster> ....
17:13:42 <zuff> 17:11 AnMaster: who?
17:13:43 <zuff> 17:12 zuff: science fiction writer.
17:13:45 <zuff> humour.
17:13:48 <zuff> now you're getting the hang of it.
17:13:49 <AnMaster> I just choose not to comment it
17:13:50 <AnMaster> .............
17:13:54 <zuff> .......................................................................
17:13:59 <AnMaster> because I considered it a rather bad case of humor
17:14:02 <zuff> ...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
17:14:03 <ais523> zuff: I see the metajoke there
17:14:04 <zuff> ................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
17:14:05 <AnMaster> as in: not very funny
17:14:08 <ais523> even if nobody else does
17:14:11 <zuff> ais523: not even I!
17:14:13 <ais523> although I agree the original joke wasn't funny
17:16:24 <oerjan> the jury is still out on which is worse, dianetics or diabetics
17:16:46 <zuff> oerjan: wow
17:16:50 <zuff> you are pioneering "serious puns"
17:18:02 <zuff> I forget what spurred me to update Python now. I guess I have to invent something that uses Python.
17:18:46 <oerjan> zuff: probably its immense user-friendliness and ease of installation.
17:19:11 <zuff> wat
17:20:10 <oerjan> angkor
17:20:34 <zuff> wattage
17:20:48 <zuff> ais523: oerjan: oklofok: time for a game of one-letterism!
17:20:48 <zuff> x
17:20:55 <oerjan> y
17:20:56 <ais523> %
17:21:00 <zuff>
17:21:01 <ais523> whoops, typo
17:21:03 <ais523> I meant Z
17:21:05 <zuff> ha
17:21:05 <zuff> i win
17:21:06 <AnMaster> ö
17:21:12 <zuff> ˀ
17:21:15 <oerjan> r
17:21:21 <zuff> u
17:21:24 <ais523> A23456789, I Cripple zuff's win
17:21:25 <AnMaster> å
17:21:30 <oerjan> wait, was that unicode or a question mark
17:21:30 <zuff> ais523: agh
17:21:34 <zuff> oerjan: unicode
17:21:42 <zuff> I Swhack ais523 for a &
17:21:56 <AnMaster> zuff, what are the rules of this game?
17:22:02 <ais523> well, I raise you a : and hail your mountain
17:22:04 <zuff> AnMaster: buy the rulebook
17:22:08 <zuff> ais523: ha!
17:22:08 <zuff> mornington crescent
17:22:08 <AnMaster> zuff, link?
17:22:13 <AnMaster> hm
17:22:13 <zuff> AnMaster: http://amazon.com/
17:22:19 <AnMaster> "mornington crescent"?
17:22:20 <AnMaster> right
17:22:20 <zuff> search for "one-letterism"
17:22:22 <ais523> AnMaster: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=Mornington_Crescent, it's an entirely different game but you'll get the idea after reading htat
17:22:23 <zuff> but it's probably out of print.
17:22:28 <oerjan> zuff: that's not a letter
17:22:31 <zuff> ais523: yeah, the game has some similarities
17:22:36 <ais523> also, )
17:22:45 <zuff> the games are a bit niche due to the ruleset problems
17:22:48 <zuff> it's weird how hard to get they are
17:22:50 <ais523> btw, that is a NetHack rapier with which to stab Wooble
17:22:57 <AnMaster> oh there are no public rules?
17:22:59 <zuff> I Stab Wooble with the ), and Z
17:23:02 <zuff> AnMaster: no, there are
17:23:05 <oerjan> zuff: it's not out of print, but you can only get it by personal appearance at the BBC
17:23:06 <zuff> they're just all out of print
17:23:11 <zuff> oerjan: that's effectively out of print.
17:23:16 <zuff> AnMaster: just pick it up as you go along.
17:23:20 <zuff> for example:
17:23:26 <zuff> a -> z is invalid, but a -> e may be valid
17:23:35 <AnMaster> hmh
17:23:35 <zuff> a -> y is definitely valid, but a -> e would be more profitable
17:23:41 <zuff> but the losses are great if it's not valid
17:23:43 <AnMaster> zuff, and the goal is the get the highest score?
17:23:45 <zuff> so be careful
17:23:53 <zuff> AnMaster: or gain the Five Trophies
17:23:58 <AnMaster> zuff, oh?
17:23:58 <zuff> but that takes years
17:24:27 <oerjan> zuff: a -> z is perfectly valid as the first two letters, just ask any elder ones
17:24:32 <zuff> oerjan: right
17:24:38 <zuff> but the first two letters should usually be left to the pros
17:24:44 <zuff> due to being the most tricky moves
17:24:55 <zuff> e.g. the 1994 game of Angman vs Smith
17:24:58 <AnMaster> I did google and search amazon, 6 hits on google, 3 on amazone, none seem relevant
17:25:03 <zuff> which lasted for 1,000 letters
17:25:10 <zuff> and yet was decided by the first two, unknown to them!
17:25:26 <AnMaster> also you are making this stuff up ;P
17:25:35 <oerjan> never!
17:25:39 <zuff> AnMaster: no, really
17:25:42 <zuff> it's just an obscure game
17:26:03 <AnMaster> zuff, yeah so obscure google give 6 hits, none of which are about a game with that name
17:26:12 <zuff> oh, i haven't said its name yet
17:26:18 <AnMaster> you said one-letterism
17:26:24 <zuff> that's a nickname
17:26:26 <zuff> one of the rules is that you're not allowed to tell anyone the name
17:26:29 <oerjan> zuff: that was because the two letters (n and t) effectively turned the rest into a game of brussels sprouts
17:26:30 <zuff> it's a bit idiosyncratic...
17:26:32 <AnMaster> very funny
17:26:33 <zuff> anti-memetic
17:27:13 <AnMaster> hm
17:28:00 <oerjan> in fact _any_ two starting letters are legal, but some are well-known losing moves
17:28:38 <AnMaster> ah
17:28:54 <zuff> yeah, 'xactly
17:29:00 <zuff> the first two are essentially a different game altogether
17:29:09 <AnMaster> just one question, is letter == any unicode codepoint?
17:29:33 <oerjan> AnMaster: not for the first two letters. then it depends.
17:30:12 <zuff> AnMaster: one of the famous games - 1987's Chong vs Armstrong -
17:30:23 <zuff> ended with Chong playing "tau4" as a letter
17:30:28 <zuff> which turned out to be valid due to a typo in the rules...
17:30:34 <zuff> he won
17:31:01 <AnMaster> zuff, what Armstrong? The music player? The astronaut? Someone else?
17:31:12 <zuff> the $name player
17:31:15 <AnMaster> ah
17:31:38 <AnMaster> s/music player/musician/
17:32:00 <AnMaster> (probably)
17:32:12 <oerjan> of course that was before unicode was invented. unicode actually reduced the number of letters by outlawing some of the more obscure chinese characters.
17:32:46 <AnMaster> ah yes I remember reading not all Chinese characters are in unicode..
17:32:53 <zuff> oerjan: han unification solved a lot of issues
17:33:01 <zuff> those damn chinese won almost every game due to their extensive letter set
17:33:27 <oerjan> yeah only the egyptians had any real competition
17:35:08 <Asztal> and they didn't even show any interest :(
17:35:50 <zuff> enough talking, anyone want another game
17:35:51 <zuff> ?
17:36:11 <Asztal> is '?' the first letter?
17:36:15 <zuff> b
17:36:15 <zuff> ha
17:36:17 <zuff> i win
17:36:28 <zuff> more honestly:
17:36:28 <zuff> a
17:36:33 <oerjan> f
17:36:36 <zuff> x
17:36:37 <Asztal>
17:36:42 <zuff> h
17:36:46 <Asztal> what?
17:36:52 <zuff> what do you mean what
17:37:01 <Asztal> what rules are these?
17:37:11 <zuff> the x-clipped ones
17:37:12 <AnMaster> (
17:37:15 <zuff> h
17:37:30 <AnMaster> ô
17:37:44 <zuff> h
17:37:53 <AnMaster> ¤
17:37:57 <zuff> h
17:38:03 <AnMaster> h
17:38:12 <zuff> e
17:38:13 <oerjan> ð
17:38:16 <zuff> h
17:38:17 <AnMaster> ö
17:38:26 <zuff> h
17:38:28 <AnMaster> f
17:38:28 <zuff> i win
17:38:32 <zuff> (triple-duplexed h/e)
17:38:44 <AnMaster> zuff, no. you forgot something important
17:38:59 <AnMaster> 3-similar basic shape rule
17:39:08 <zuff> that's not relevant when using shunting
17:39:15 <oerjan> i tried to stop it with the ð but you had just sent the e
17:39:24 <zuff> yeah
17:39:25 <AnMaster> zuff, ah except when duplexed with e
17:39:35 <zuff> AnMaster: yes, but e-duplexing is permitted if it's early
17:39:43 <zuff> btw, try to use less unicode, it allows the h/
17:39:44 <zuff> e
17:39:45 <zuff> formation
17:39:54 <ais523> h
17:39:59 <AnMaster> zuff, the ( changed the phase though
17:40:03 <AnMaster> so that isn't relevant
17:40:04 <ais523> zuff: in your excitement, you forgot to send the final h
17:40:09 <ais523> AnMaster: stop complaining, it's a valid win
17:40:14 <ais523> but zuff forgot to finish it off
17:40:19 <ais523> wait, sorry
17:40:23 <AnMaster> ais523, hm maybe, according to the 2001 rules
17:40:24 <zuff> ais523: no, I did
17:40:25 <ais523> I missed the h above Azstal's comment
17:40:27 <zuff> AnMaster's f-shunting
17:40:30 <zuff> allowed the shorthand
17:40:31 <zuff> yeah
17:40:37 <zuff> [[A breeder reactor built in a shed, and the boy scout badge to prove credit was given where boy scout credit was due. (500 points) This item was completed, although the team only came in second place.[6] ]]
17:40:40 <AnMaster> but not if you consider the last 1970 rules
17:40:41 <zuff> -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Chicago_Scavenger_Hunt
17:41:28 <AnMaster> zuff, wow
17:41:34 <AnMaster> like, unsafe
17:41:46 <zuff> you misspelled AWESOME
17:42:16 <AnMaster> zuff, well that too, but seriously insane and unsafe
17:42:48 <zuff> and AWESOME
17:43:49 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn has more info on it
17:49:54 <zuff> no, that's not the guy
17:50:06 <zuff> Perhaps the most notable item that has yet been completed was from the 1999 list; a breeder reactor in a shed was successfully built on the main quadrangle.[1] The item itself was a joke referring to the "Radioactive Boy Scout" David Hahn. The students irradiated thorium with thermal neutrons and observed traces of uranium and plutonium.[2]
17:50:13 <zuff> it was a joke, and a reference to him
17:50:17 <zuff> but it was actually don
17:50:18 <zuff> e
17:50:21 <AnMaster> ah
17:50:22 <AnMaster> right
17:50:25 <AnMaster> misread the link
17:51:09 <zuff> Nomic finding: 1 coin is worth around 3.57142857142857 mack.
17:51:29 <AnMaster> zuff, which nomic?
17:51:50 <zuff> Coins are from the People's Bank of Agora, which I created. Mack is the official currency of B Nomic.
17:51:57 <AnMaster> ah agora, ok
17:52:04 <zuff> I figured this out because a B win is 5000 mack.
17:52:11 <AnMaster> heh
17:52:14 <zuff> And you can win Agora (slowly) if you have 1400 coins
17:52:19 <zuff> (by withdrawing assets that get you points)
17:52:31 <zuff> This, of course, assumes the PBA has infinity of everything.
17:53:28 <AnMaster> ais523, is the last gcc-bf uploaded?
17:53:34 <AnMaster> with the new build system
17:53:35 <ais523> no, not yet
17:53:42 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, when do you plan to?
18:07:12 <ais523> when I finish reading email and working out how
18:07:26 <ais523> actually, all I need to send is the build script and the patches dir
18:07:33 <ais523> the original source to gcc and to newlib haven't changed
18:07:47 <ais523> so you'd only need to redownload my stuff, which is all in patches apart from build and readme
18:12:33 <AnMaster> ais523, re-download the tarball?
18:12:56 <ais523> it wasn't a tarball in the first place, IIRC
18:13:05 <AnMaster> ais523, yes it was when I downloaded it
18:13:09 <AnMaster> with a simple build script
18:13:11 <ais523> ah, maybe it was
18:13:14 <AnMaster> using some messy realpath
18:13:16 <ais523> yes, I remember what I did now
18:13:18 <AnMaster> that didn't exist on my system
18:13:25 <ais523> also, it probably still uses realpath
18:13:41 <AnMaster> then I'll wait for a version that doesn't
18:13:51 <ais523> that'll probably be soon but not today
18:13:54 <ais523> say some time this week
18:14:06 <ais523> I'd like to try to get gcc-bf to actually compile something simple to a mostly-working state, too
18:20:58 <AnMaster> ais523, I remember I provided a replacement function that worked for gcc-bf
18:21:06 <ais523> yes, it's simple enough
18:21:10 <ais523> to write a replacement
18:21:14 <AnMaster> that iirc relied on it not being a file
18:21:17 <ais523> just I still have hundreds of unread emails
18:21:41 <AnMaster> something like realpath() { cd "$dir"; echo "$PWD"/; }
18:21:42 <AnMaster> or such
18:22:00 <AnMaster> don't remember
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18:31:02 <zuff> Mage_Catalog_Model_Resource_Eav_Mysql4_Product_Type_Configurable_Attribute_Collection:
18:31:05 <zuff> http://svn.magentocommerce.com/source/branches/1.1-trunk/app/code/core/Mage/Catalog/Model/Resource/Eav/Mysql4/Product/Type/Configurable/Attribute/Collection.php
18:32:25 <AnMaster> heh?
18:33:00 <zuff> it's beautiful
18:33:00 <zuff> XD
18:33:06 <AnMaster> the name is quite long
18:33:12 <AnMaster> and it's php
18:33:13 <zuff> "quite"
18:33:24 <AnMaster> well that was an understatement
18:33:31 <AnMaster> zuff, how did you find it?
18:33:37 <zuff> someone's blahhhg
18:33:52 <ais523> hey, Perl6 has a release date
18:33:57 <AnMaster> wow
18:34:05 <ais523> it's "Christmas Day", they didn't specify the year
18:34:07 <AnMaster> ais523, same as Duke Nukem?
18:34:08 <ais523> so clearly cheating
18:34:13 <zuff> ais523: um, duh
18:34:15 <AnMaster> hah
18:34:16 <zuff> they make that joke all the time
18:34:20 <zuff> that's the running gag
18:34:21 * oerjan swats ais523 -----###
18:34:29 <ais523> I didn't realise it hadn't been made before
18:34:32 <zuff> on the other hand, Chinese Democracy and Python 3000 are out
18:34:33 <ais523> *had been made before
18:34:49 <AnMaster> Chinese Democracy? Really I thought they didn't have that
18:34:49 <zuff> still to go: Perl 6, DNF, new MBV album, any others?
18:34:54 <Asztal> what next, Ruby 2?
18:34:58 <zuff> AnMaster: the album.
18:34:59 <AnMaster> MBV?
18:34:59 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
18:35:02 <zuff> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Democracy
18:35:05 <zuff> I know that was a pun.
18:35:06 <zuff> And I don't care.
18:35:16 <AnMaster> zuff, what pun?
18:35:19 <AnMaster> I didn't make a pun...
18:35:25 <Asztal> oh, and the year of the linux desktop, if that counts
18:35:25 <AnMaster> I never heard of such an album
18:35:32 <oerjan> zuff: you want so hard to believe...
18:35:50 <ais523> Asztal: that's different, the year of the Linux Desktop isn't something that's slow and up-coming
18:35:55 <ais523> it's something that's declared every single year
18:35:56 <zuff> MBV = 80s/90s shoegazer band, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Bloody_Valentine_(band)
18:36:01 <AnMaster> hm
18:36:02 <AnMaster> ok
18:36:06 <AnMaster> never heard of them either
18:36:13 <ais523> niether have I
18:36:16 <AnMaster> For reference I'm currently listening to: Antonio Vivaldi - Spring - Concerto for violin, op 8, no 1, in E major - Allegro - City of London Sinfonia
18:36:41 <zuff> :P
18:36:41 <zuff> oh, also
18:36:41 <zuff> analytical engine
18:36:41 <zuff> been waiting a while for that one.
18:36:41 <ais523> you have good taste
18:36:41 <AnMaster> that was hand typed from the CD cover
18:36:41 <AnMaster> ais523, thanks
18:36:50 <AnMaster> ais523, I also like Enya, yes strange mix I know
18:36:51 <ais523> that was built, though
18:36:56 <ais523> not by the original author
18:36:59 <zuff> ais523: was it?
18:37:16 <ais523> some modern-day project recreated it from plans IIRC
18:37:20 <ais523> although that's an "it might be an urban legend" IIRC
18:37:24 <zuff> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_engine
18:38:05 <Slereah-> There's a simulator on the internet, too
18:38:10 <Slereah-> Although the syntax is horrible
18:38:17 <zuff> also, my tastes in music are pretty contradictory
18:38:17 <Slereah-> Although not as bad as punchcards, I guess
18:40:33 <ais523> hmm... it seems that 64-bit Wine has managed to run a hello world program, though
18:40:51 <oerjan> anyone whose taste in music includes punchcards is clearly insane, so belongs here
18:41:15 <Slereah-> Come on, punchcards are awesome in music, oerjan
18:41:25 <Slereah-> They're the salloon music of every cowboy movie
18:41:40 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL accepts punched-card input
18:42:24 <Slereah-> Too bad punch card readers pretty much disappeared :o
18:42:37 <Slereah-> There's a society that still make 'em, but fuck it's expensive
18:45:08 <AnMaster> what is "punchcards in music"?
18:45:12 <AnMaster> the sound when they hit the floor?
18:45:14 <AnMaster> or what
18:45:37 <Slereah-> I was thinking of those old pianos with punchcards.
18:45:45 <Slereah-> Well, tapes.
18:45:45 <AnMaster> oh? What for?
18:45:47 <AnMaster> um
18:45:50 <AnMaster> huh?
18:46:02 <AnMaster> why would a piano have a tape?
18:46:02 <Slereah-> You know.
18:46:07 <Asztal> http://www.outstandingelephant.com/jcquard/
18:46:11 <AnMaster> no I don't, and I play piano
18:46:12 <Slereah-> The tape has holes in it
18:46:19 <AnMaster> Slereah-, yes right, punchtape
18:46:19 <Slereah-> The piano reads the hole, and make a not
18:46:21 <Slereah-> note
18:46:28 <AnMaster> Slereah-, a music box?
18:46:31 <Slereah-> IT MAKES MUSIC
18:46:32 <zuff> ...
18:46:34 <AnMaster> right
18:46:41 <AnMaster> but is it a piano then?
18:46:55 <Slereah-> Well, it sure is in westerns!
18:47:01 <AnMaster> or an analog synth?
18:47:03 <Slereah-> I'm not sure if it's historically accurate though
18:47:19 <AnMaster> it sounds more like a keyboard/synth
18:47:23 <AnMaster> except analog
18:47:24 <Slereah-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_roll
18:47:27 <Slereah-> There we go
18:48:03 <Slereah-> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Pianola1.JPG
18:48:07 <Slereah-> Is this TC? :o
18:48:28 <ais523> I don't think so
18:48:38 <ais523> IIRC, piano rolls work much the same way http://esolangs.org/wiki/Text does
18:49:47 <Slereah-> Heh.
18:50:07 <AnMaster> ah that one
18:50:17 <zuff> 3
18:50:20 <zuff> oops
18:50:30 <zuff> AnMaster: "oh, THAT piano punch card thing"
18:50:31 <AnMaster> s/^/</
18:50:34 <zuff> i thought you meant the other one!
18:50:43 <AnMaster> zuff, no, I was thinking about Text
18:50:50 <AnMaster> I didn't remember what lang it was
18:51:09 <AnMaster> and I accept the existence of automated pianos
18:51:25 <AnMaster> but as a piano purist I wouldn't consider them real pianos ;P
18:52:13 <zuff> that's like not supporting gay marriage!!
18:52:18 <zuff> [NB above sentence makes no sense]
18:52:28 <AnMaster> indeed it makes no sense
18:53:13 <oerjan> it makes no, sensei
18:53:19 <AnMaster> haha
18:54:02 <AnMaster> one question about these pianos, how do they reproduce the volume of the tone
18:54:10 <AnMaster> forte, piano, and so on
18:56:08 <oerjan> it's fortissimo all the time. had to be to be heard over the constant shooting
18:56:23 <AnMaster> hehe
19:09:15 <Slereah-> Oh you.
19:09:21 <Slereah-> Also it's piano all the time
19:09:25 <Slereah-> Because it's a piano
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19:10:04 <AnMaster> Slereah-, not as funny
19:10:24 <AnMaster> considering the real name of the piano when introduced was "pianoforte"
19:10:35 <zuff> it was hilarious because it was terribe
19:10:38 <zuff> terrible
19:10:52 <Slereah-> So it's both piano and forte at the same time
19:11:11 <AnMaster> ok that one was better
19:11:27 <AnMaster> zuff, also had I made the piano joke you would have said it was just bad
19:11:30 <AnMaster> ;P
19:11:42 <zuff> :P
19:11:57 * oerjan claims to have thought up the piano joke before the fortissimo one, and discarded it
19:12:57 <zuff> http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/2002/12/03/december_3rd/
19:13:25 <Slereah-> AREN'T YOU TWELVE THOUGH?
19:13:40 <zuff> IT'S A GOOD THING THAT'S NOT MY BLOG EH
19:14:03 <Slereah-> EH?
19:14:08 <Slereah-> ARE YOU CANADIAN?
19:14:23 <zuff> YES. NO.
19:15:03 <oerjan> EH is his secret blog duh
19:15:39 <oerjan> now why anyone would name a secret blog after their initials is beyond me
19:17:30 <Slereah-> Eric Hird
19:17:34 <Slereah-> Eleonor Hird
19:17:50 <zuff> Esme Hird
19:17:52 <oerjan> Elephant, actually
19:17:53 <zuff> EsmeESME
19:18:02 <oerjan> he never forgets a bad pun
19:18:02 <zuff> ESMEESMESMESMESMESM
19:18:09 <oerjan> thus the shooting sprees
19:18:26 <Slereah-> D:
19:18:32 <Slereah-> ESME : NEVER FORGET
19:18:56 <ais523> oh no, someone mentioned ESME again?
19:19:03 <zuff> me
19:19:05 <AnMaster> oh my
19:20:33 -!- Mony has quit ("Mouarf....").
19:20:51 <zuff> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wHjieD6CTYs
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20:24:21 <AnMaster> ais523: about that comment about linux desktop above
20:24:25 <AnMaster> isn't it already here?
20:48:11 <zuff> no.
20:51:21 <AnMaster> zuff, oh+
20:51:22 <AnMaster> ?
21:12:29 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
21:13:17 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
21:46:10 <AnMaster> night
21:58:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:44:56 <Slereah-> I'm kinda disappointed.
22:45:04 <Slereah-> Osmonian didn't update in like forever
22:47:10 <zuff> wat
22:47:25 <Slereah-> You know
22:47:29 <Slereah-> Plain English*
22:49:18 <zuff> o
22:49:18 <zuff> :P
22:49:28 <zuff> did they update?
22:49:31 <zuff> whaddoes that mean
22:53:18 <oklofok> heloooooo everyybooody :D
22:53:23 * oklofok goes again
22:57:29 <Slereah-> zuff : I said they did not
22:57:34 <Slereah-> It means what it means
22:57:35 <zuff> ah.
22:57:41 <zuff> Slereah-: i think they stopped developing in like 2005
22:57:55 <Slereah-> Aw.
22:58:05 <Slereah-> But... It's revolujtionary and all!
22:58:10 <Slereah-> The website goes on about that!
22:58:53 <Slereah-> Oh god
22:59:01 <Slereah-> I just came across a terrible program
22:59:12 <Slereah-> It's a flash to iPod converter.
22:59:21 <Slereah-> As it converts files, it PLAYS THEM
22:59:28 <Slereah-> Does anyone know a better one?
23:02:42 <zuff> well
23:02:43 <zuff> actionscript.
23:02:47 <zuff> there's no other way to do it
23:02:49 <zuff> i guess.
23:03:11 <Slereah-> Actionscript?
23:03:37 <zuff> flash has an embedded javacsript
23:03:39 <zuff> called actionscrip
23:03:39 <zuff> t
23:04:52 <Slereah-> It's nice to see my old flash, but it's like half an hour long.
23:05:13 <Slereah-> And I can't play other stuff now
2008-12-16
00:35:24 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird.
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02:44:25 <GregorR> Making a machine that does something usually done on a computer (e.g., sorting) isn't mechanical engineering, it's just porting to the language "physics" :)
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04:30:12 <bsmntbombdood> i bin sort hundreds of items by hand ever day :(
04:30:42 <lament> get a new job?
04:30:53 <bsmntbombdood> same job
04:31:09 <lament> i meant
04:31:11 <lament> get a new job
04:31:20 <bsmntbombdood> oh
04:31:26 <lament> :P
04:35:33 <bsmntbombdood> i'm not sure how i should go about getting a real job
04:39:32 <Warrigal> Everyone on IRC is a college student.
04:40:00 <bsmntbombdood> not i
04:40:38 <Warrigal> Except ehird, because in Britain, "college" means "Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays while both digits of one's age are prime".
04:41:07 <Warrigal> Or something like that, anyway.
04:42:16 <bsmntbombdood> 22,23,25,27,32,33,35,37,52,53,55,57,72,73,75,77
04:44:02 <Warrigal> Precisely.
04:46:01 <Warrigal> Actually, I think the days of the week might be rearranged over there, making it Wednesdays, Mondays, and Thursdays, in that order.
04:47:29 <Warrigal> Nope, looks like Britain's days of the week are generally Sunday-first, like ours.
04:49:16 <bsmntbombdood> just say prime-numbered days and be done with it
05:09:22 <psygnisfive> guys
05:09:27 <psygnisfive> quizicle
05:09:48 <psygnisfive> f(0) = 1, f(1) = 1, f(2) = 1, f(3) = 1, f(4) = 1
05:09:52 <psygnisfive> what is f(5) = ?
05:11:43 <MizardX> 121 ?
05:11:57 <psygnisfive> possible.
05:12:04 <psygnisfive> completely acceptable answer.
05:12:40 <psygnisfive> infact, f(5) can be any number you want
05:13:48 <Sgeo> psygnisfive, saw that on qntm once
05:14:13 <psygnisfive> because for any arbitrary numbers, x0, x1, ... xn there exists an infinite number of quadratic functions that have zeros at those numbers, so suppose z(x) is just such a function
05:14:35 <Sgeo> http://qntm.org/?1111
05:14:37 <psygnisfive> if thats the case, you can construct any function you want that is constant on exactly those numbers, and something else elsewhere
05:14:44 <MizardX> 1+x^5-10*x^4+35*x^3-50*x^2+24*x
05:14:46 <psygnisfive> sgeo: this is infact where i got it :)
05:14:49 <psygnisfive> but his explanation is wonky
05:14:56 <psygnisfive> just think of it like this:
05:14:59 <Sgeo> Howso?
05:15:08 <psygnisfive> x(x-1)(x-2)(x-3)...(x-k)
05:15:32 <psygnisfive> for x = 0,1,...k, this will equal 0
05:16:13 <psygnisfive> so from that you can do anything you want.
05:16:20 <psygnisfive> add it to any relevant number, multiply it, whatever
05:17:05 <psygnisfive> and at those numbers itll equal 0, but outside that range itll be whatever
05:20:39 <lament> in general, finitely many values are not enough to describe a function.
05:20:54 <psygnisfive> indeed!
05:21:08 <lament> which is not surprising at all
05:21:10 <psygnisfive> for some classes of functions they are but in general no. which is interesting :)
05:21:42 <psygnisfive> not surprising, but it's got obvious implications for inductivism
05:21:45 <bsmntbombdood> why did you bring this up?
05:21:47 <psygnisfive> not that inductivism makes sense anyway, but
05:21:52 <psygnisfive> bsmntbombdood: why not?
05:21:56 <psygnisfive> dis are esoteric
05:22:23 <lament> i think a more interesting fact is that countably many values is enough to describe a large class of useful functions
05:25:40 <psygnisfive> indeed indeed
05:27:48 <lament> (f(x) = 1 for x in [0,1]. What's f(42)?)
05:29:33 <lament> (for that matter, f(x) = 1 for all x not equal to 42. What's f(42)?)
05:30:01 <psygnisfive> f(42) =--- Error -21456: Your planet has been demolished by a vogon construction fleet.
05:31:05 <lament> f(1) = 0, f(1) = 1, f(1) = 2, f(1) = 3, f(1) = 4
05:31:09 <lament> what is f(1) = ?
05:31:25 <psygnisfive> also, i can divide polynomials while sleep-deprived, out of practice, and intoxicated.
05:31:30 <psygnisfive> i wonder if i have some russian blood in me.
05:31:45 <psygnisfive> f(1) = 1 and maybe some other stuff :P
05:59:58 <Sgeo> G'night all
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06:58:36 <oklofok> psygnisfive: is dividing polynomials an extremely hard procedure?
06:59:40 <oerjan> not in a single variable, at least
07:00:33 <oklofok> not in a single variable?
07:00:44 <oerjan> for more variables i vaguely recall the answer can be dependent on order, i think i saw something about it in wp's Gröbner basis article
07:01:53 <oerjan> for two polynomials in x, dividing one on the other gives you a quotient and a remainder by long division
07:01:54 <oklofok> ohh single variable right, you mean like having just one variable.
07:02:25 <oklofok> you meant what you *said*, never occurred to me.
07:02:42 <oerjan> you do it almost like with integers, pretending that x is the base
07:02:57 <oklofok> yes, i know the procedure.
07:03:40 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%B6bner_basis
07:03:42 <oklofok> can't really not know it having gone to school for X years
07:03:50 <oklofok> (not sure how many exactly)
07:04:00 <oklofok> (but too many)
07:04:34 <oerjan> "multivariate division of any polynomial in the polynomial ring R by G gives a unique remainder;" is one of the equivalent definitions of a gröbner basis
07:06:18 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multivariate_division_algorithm
07:06:29 <oklofok> stop seducing me with your links, i need to read my things.
07:06:50 <oerjan> BWAHAHAHA
07:07:33 <oklofok> i have an exam in $stupid_course in 50 minutes
07:08:35 <oerjan> oh. good luck.
07:09:12 <lament> oklofok: you'll appreciate this: http://images.google.ca/images?q=alba
07:09:56 <oklofok> :)
07:11:33 <oklofok> the course is about gui's, the lecture notes are mostly about how java does it, and the exam asks more theoretical questions i can't really answer based on the notes, because they are crap in the theory parts.
07:11:45 * oerjan lends oklofok his swatter to use on lament
07:12:23 <oklofok> stuff like "- how to do this?", and presumably the lecturer has then answered that, but i didn't attend lectures.
07:12:37 <oklofok> oh thanks.
07:12:56 * oklofok swats la.. himself in the face
07:12:59 <oklofok> ouch
07:13:09 <oklofok> i can't use this thing it's like it has a life of its own
07:13:11 <oklofok> :|
07:13:15 <oklofok> where did you get it?
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07:14:57 * oerjan takes it back
07:15:24 <oerjan> well the last - was from pikhq i think
07:16:31 <oerjan> for the rest of it, well i was walking down the internet when i noticed this little webshop that hadn't been there the previous day
07:17:53 <oerjan> inside there was this strange little chinese looking man with glasses, who offered me the fly swatter
07:19:00 <oklofok> ...was that chinese man called wong by any chance?
07:20:15 <oerjan> he didn't say, and i couldn't read the shop sign. i bought the swatter and went. then i realized the manual was in chinese too, so i went back to ask if he had any european language manual.
07:20:34 <oerjan> but the shop was already gone!
07:21:41 <oerjan> fortunately google translate allowed me to get most of it. but there were some mysterious passages that caused google to crash.
07:22:03 <oerjan> not just google translate - apparently their whole network went down.
07:22:42 <oklofok> that's probably normal.
07:23:02 <oerjan> and that's all i know. i just try not to do anything too fancy with the swatter, just in case.
07:23:10 * oklofok fears this'll be his first non 5/5 grade :<
07:23:18 <oklofok> will i die?
07:23:46 <lament> yes.
07:23:49 <oerjan> no. but your finnish genes imply a slight chance of a shooting spree.
07:24:00 <oerjan> well, in which case you might die.
07:24:31 <oerjan> oh and of course, eventually.
07:24:46 <lament> sooner if you keep using the swatter
07:24:50 <oklofok> oh dear :|
07:25:42 <olsner> haha
07:25:42 <oklofok> i can already feel my trigger finger starting to twitch uncontrollably
07:26:40 <oerjan> there is a half-translated passage of the manual that says there is a way to use it not to die. but it also warns that this is _very_ unlikely to be considered an improvement.
07:27:09 <oerjan> even in the short term.
07:27:32 <oklofok> if i start shooting people
07:27:37 <oklofok> use the swatter on me, okay?
07:27:58 <oerjan> i'm afraid i won't be there. the swatter only works on the internet.
07:28:31 <oklofok> lol like i'd ever shoot anyone irl :D
07:28:35 <oklofok> it'd be an irc shooting.
07:28:46 <oerjan> ic
07:29:28 <oerjan> in that case, it might be better to use the saucepan.
07:29:46 <olsner> bleh, megzlna in #haskell...
07:29:56 <oerjan> it has, as far as i can tell, no mystical properties.
07:30:31 <oerjan> although it has a good steel bottom.
07:31:25 <olsner> steel? are you sure it's not aluminum?
07:31:29 <oklofok> oerjan: what about megsaasc
07:32:05 <oklofok> i think haskell's global names thing is pretty annoying too.
07:33:13 <oerjan> olsner: finest stainless steel
07:33:33 <oerjan> oklofok: what is megsaasc
07:33:52 <olsner> oklofok: well, I agree, but he/she has a way of being annoyed that is by far more annoying than the thing itself
07:34:21 <oklofok> oerjan: megzlna
07:35:32 <oklofok> but yeah, modules are a working solution for that, which is why i only see it as a slight inconvenience
07:35:52 <oklofok> and dunno about annoying, i'm never annoyed
07:36:44 <olsner> me, frequently annoyed
07:39:02 <oklofok> haskell modules, do you need to separate them in different files?
07:39:10 <oerjan> yes
07:39:28 <oklofok> that i do find annoying
07:39:48 <oerjan> it's how the compiler finds them
07:40:30 <oklofok> i'm sure it's very practical, that's no excuse, because i'm critisizing the whole world, not just haskell
07:40:56 <oklofok> *cize
07:41:02 <oklofok> *cizing
07:41:06 <oklofok> oooooooooooooooooooooo
07:41:09 <oklofok> ooooooooooooo
07:41:46 <olsner> the module system is pretty simplistic, but I like that it is
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09:12:49 <AnMaster> GregorR, there? codu.org seems down
09:12:58 <AnMaster> no idea if you know about it or not
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16:06:12 <GregorR> AnMaster: It's gone down a few times recently so I started logging the processes and top output to see why this is happening. The result: I haven't a fegging clue X_X
16:11:02 <ehird> GregorR: Hmm.
16:11:09 <ehird> I could check it out if you want.
16:11:15 <ehird> rutian never goes down except when I restart it :P
16:25:28 <GregorR> The problem is that for some reason some stale trac.cgi processes are hanging around chewing up memory. Pile together a hundred of those or so and I've got no memory left.
16:26:44 <GregorR> In fact ... they're staying precisely to their CPU limit, then failing to die ...
16:27:34 <ehird> GregorR: ah.
16:27:37 <ehird> what web server?
16:28:17 <GregorR> apache2
16:28:32 -!- Judofyr has joined.
16:28:38 <ehird> use nginx :-P
16:29:35 <GregorR> What a useless non-solution.
16:29:41 <GregorR> Because it's not like I have any .htaccess files.
16:29:52 <ehird> :D
16:33:31 <GregorR> *
16:33:32 <GregorR> Experimental features:
16:33:32 <GregorR> * embedded perl.
16:33:38 <GregorR> Ewwwwwwwwwwww
16:33:40 <GregorR> :P
16:35:21 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, yeah.
16:35:30 <ehird> It also has a module specifically for serving a transparent 1x1 gif.
16:35:37 <ehird> But just ignore all that shit. :P
16:35:46 <ehird> http://wiki.codemongers.com/ english docs
16:35:52 <GregorR> Damned commies.
16:40:04 <Slereah-> More like COCKMONGLER, amirite?
17:01:52 <oklofok> ehird: It also has a module specifically for serving a transparent 1x1 gif. <<< lol wut? :D
17:02:05 <ehird> oklofok: it's because in ye olde 90s people did <img src=blank.gif> for padding
17:02:13 <ehird> and spacing
17:02:15 <ehird> because they knew not of css.
17:02:22 <ehird> so that module does it hyperfast.
17:05:32 <oklofok> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDdddddddddddddddddddd
17:27:38 <AnMaster> hm
17:27:44 <AnMaster> hi ehird
17:27:50 <AnMaster> haven't seen you for a while
17:27:59 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff.
17:28:02 <zuff> More bouncer errors.
17:28:05 <AnMaster> aha
17:28:20 <AnMaster> zuff, is it a config issue or software issue?
17:28:47 <zuff> It's a SPIRITUAL ISSUE.
17:28:56 <AnMaster> if it is the former, complain to ehird, if it is the latter tell ehird he may want to try znc
17:29:01 <AnMaster> zuff, oh? how do you mean?
17:29:14 <zuff> I am not close enough to GOD for my bouncer to work correctly.
17:29:21 <zuff> err
17:29:22 <zuff> ehird's bouncer.
17:29:27 <Asztal> You mean Xenu
17:29:43 <zuff> Err
17:29:44 <zuff> yes
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18:03:36 <AnMaster> zuff, haha
18:03:50 <zuff> Hi BtbN.
18:03:52 <zuff> Bye BtbN.
18:04:58 <AnMaster> hm
18:26:10 <zuff> fizzie: can you do something with fungot for me?
18:26:10 <fungot> zuff: ( c) the judge, or
18:26:34 <AnMaster> ^help
18:26:35 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
18:26:45 <zuff> no; it needs fizzie-permissions
18:27:10 <AnMaster> what on earth may that be?
18:28:57 <fizzie> Hm? (I'm preparing food, so partially away.)
18:29:33 <zuff> fizzie: Make it change nick to meow and join #reddit.
18:29:36 <zuff> Plz. :D
18:29:36 -!- Hiato has joined.
18:30:06 <fizzie> Uh, no; I want to be around to observe that sort of stuff, and busy right now. :p
18:30:38 <zuff> Don't worry it's mostly perfectly innocent apart from the one bit which is all of it.
18:39:32 <Hiato> Wow, hold on: is iHope == Actaeus on the XKCD for a?
18:39:54 <Hiato> er, that is to say, is anyone here that person on the fora?
18:40:22 <zuff> What?
18:40:34 <zuff> Link to their profile/
18:41:20 <Hiato> http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=31598&sid=bbf395caf53ac448f3e5347d6b4fdc5a#p1189920 that links to http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/06.03.20 and I am busy playing that game on the XKCD forum. I was just interested if someone here I knew was, in fact, playing against me
18:42:09 <zuff> Well, our logs are quite googleable.
18:42:19 * zuff internet-stalks to see
18:42:49 <zuff> I spend far too much of my time on the xkcd fora, where I go by Actaeus. I’m also a denizen of #xkcd on irc.foonetic.net, where I’m Daedalus, but lately I haven’t been there very regularly.
18:42:53 <zuff> Never seen either of those here.
18:42:58 <zuff> So nobody from here I think
18:43:28 * oklofok changes back to IE
18:43:33 <zuff> oklofok: what why
18:43:45 <oklofok> firefox crashes every day, sometimes many times.
18:44:06 <Hiato> Oh, so it is you zuff - curse you :P Heh, either way, I can't say I knew you before hand
18:44:18 <zuff> Hiato: I'm ehird.
18:44:31 <Hiato> Oh, damn, you are? Hell, small world
18:44:46 <zuff> Wait.
18:44:49 <zuff> Do you know another zuff?
18:44:57 <Hiato> Nope
18:45:00 <zuff> Ah.
18:45:44 <Hiato> and let me guess then, it was ais523 that came up with the 3 state two symbol (or visa versa) turing machine that caused some controversy..
18:46:17 <zuff> Hiato: no; but he solved it and got money in the process.
18:46:21 <zuff> How did you guess? :-P
18:46:25 <zuff> Oh, 23?
18:46:27 <zuff> That's coincidence.
18:46:58 <Hiato> Heh, no, no, not really - but partially. Adrew Smith = AiS:P (Ian?)
18:47:07 <zuff> Alex (ian) smith
18:47:26 <zuff> Technically ais523 is a separate person because he's a wikipedia admin and they get death threats and stuff.
18:48:00 <Hiato> Oh, heh - bad memory. So then, let me ask, who is scikidus? Heh, lol - interesting take on FOSS attitude there
18:48:08 <Slereah-> Well, most of the death threats were from me.
18:48:13 <zuff> lol
18:48:14 <zuff> scikidus?
18:48:18 <Slereah-> But it's his fault, really.
18:48:21 <Slereah-> I told him.
18:48:26 <Slereah-> Don't mess with football.
18:48:30 <zuff> I don't think we've seen a scikidus.
18:48:36 <zuff> ...should we have?
18:49:32 <Hiato> Slereah: I see, anything you'd like to share? Ehird/zuff: Well, that other guy on the Big number game - unless, of course, you were joking. Oh, and tricky777
18:49:48 <zuff> Hiato: Slereah- was joking... also, what was I joking about
18:49:50 <zuff> :s
18:50:08 <Slereah-> It's true. I didn't actually issued death threats to ais523.
18:50:12 <Slereah-> Surprising no?
18:50:23 <Hiato> My world has been turned upside-down
18:50:26 <Slereah-> Although I could do some now, I suppose.
18:50:30 <Slereah-> ais523!
18:50:36 <Hiato> (20:43:01) zuff: I spend far too much of my time on the xkcd fora, where I go by Actaeus.
18:50:39 <Slereah-> PREPARE TO MEET YOUR DOOM!
18:50:42 <Slereah-> DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
18:50:50 <zuff> Hiato: that was copy pasting from the guy you linked's blahg
18:50:57 <Hiato> Youtube it (might as well make a pretty penny)
18:50:59 <Hiato> Oh, lol
18:51:00 <Hiato> rofl
18:51:16 <Hiato> Wow, this is what happens after a long day
18:52:57 <Hiato> Ok, let's see - how do we delete the logs? :P
18:55:48 <zuff> :D
18:56:26 <Slereah-> Ooooooh
18:56:30 <Slereah-> Spam on the wiki :D
18:56:34 <Slereah-> Like shitload of it
18:58:02 <oklofok> link
18:59:20 <zuff> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges
18:59:33 <Asztal> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Befungehttp:/www.mepis.org/docs/en/index.php/Make_Media_players_work
18:59:36 <Asztal> huh
18:59:43 <zuff> lol
18:59:48 <fizzie> Misread that as Special:Rectangles. They should have a special page like that. With some CSS rectangles in it, or something.
19:00:00 <zuff> fizzie: NICK meow JOIN #reddit
19:00:16 <zuff> :{
19:00:17 <Hiato> lol
19:00:18 <fizzie> Nnnnah. But you can run your own copy of fungot to do that, maybe?
19:00:18 <fungot> fizzie: providing a unique name, mintor, except a transfer order
19:00:18 <zuff> (fungot taht is)
19:00:18 <fungot> zuff: the initiation of the contract's terms, the voting period. this rule
19:00:27 <zuff> fizzie: That would be difficult.
19:00:49 <fizzie> Well, nontrivial, maybe.
19:00:53 <zuff> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:%22The_most_important_thing_in_the_programming_language_is_the_name._A_language_will_not_succeed_without_a_good_name._I_have_recently_invented_a_very_good_name_and_now_I_am_looking_for_a_suitable_language.%22 ais523 WANTS TO DELETE OUR LANGUAGE
19:00:59 <fizzie> The language model stuff needs a bit of disk space.
19:01:18 <zuff> fizzie: plzzzz
19:01:23 <zuff> I'll bribe you with agoran assets
19:01:46 <fizzie> I doubt those translate to anything useful in a real-world sense.
19:02:14 <zuff> fizzie: jaycampbell was offering 5 bucks for 300 coins a while back, iirc.
19:02:35 -!- olsner has joined.
19:03:02 <fizzie> I am wary of doing anything related to freenode channels I do not know about (which, at this point, means anything else than #esoteric) since they might get offended or something.
19:03:13 <zuff> don't worry, they'll be very happy
19:03:34 <fizzie> I'm also not sure whether you're the most trustworthy person around.
19:03:36 <fizzie> No offence!
19:03:46 <zuff> C'mon :}
19:04:33 <zuff> fizzie: CMON :D
19:04:43 <fizzie> Mmmeh. I guess I can always /part if it looks like someone's getting restless. Although fungot's raw-loggery is difficult to follow.
19:04:43 <fungot> fizzie: be known to all contestants, and cannot be made in a row receive exactly the same
19:04:52 <zuff> fizzie: Thank you :}
19:05:27 <zuff> fizzie: :}
19:05:44 <fizzie> Er, I think I'll run another copy, though. If I just do ^raw NICK, it won't change the name it looks for in the babbling thing.
19:05:53 <zuff> Ah, good point.
19:05:57 <zuff> That's ok.
19:06:22 <fizzie> Did you want it set to this agora style?
19:06:31 <zuff> Any style would be OK, but irc would be best.
19:07:02 <oklofok> fizzie: you should explore freenode more, this is the best network there is
19:08:19 <fizzie> oklofok: I did look at some freenode channel list, but was unable to decide, there being so many options. I used to idle on #scheme some time ago, though.
19:09:16 <oklofok> well this is the best channel, so a good start.
19:09:26 <zuff> fizzie: :}
19:09:59 <oklofok> fizzie: where else are you?
19:10:00 <AnMaster> <Hiato> http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=31598&sid=bbf395caf53ac448f3e5347d6b4fdc5a#p1189920 that links to http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/06.03.20 and I am busy playing that game on the XKCD forum. I was just interested if someone here I knew was, in fact, playing against me <-- hm... that makes me wonder
19:10:10 -!- vabot_ has joined.
19:10:16 <fizzie> oklofok: Nowhere else, in this network.
19:10:18 <AnMaster> "fastest-growing recursive function for two arguments that only calls the successor function (x+1) and itself".
19:10:20 <AnMaster> what about:
19:10:26 <fizzie> Hmm, for some reason the meow-copy does not babble.
19:10:33 <oklofok> i meant on what other networks
19:10:34 <zuff> fizzie: :{
19:10:37 <oklofok> then realized i already know.
19:10:38 <zuff> maybe fixed lenght check
19:10:41 <fizzie> I think it's missing some file; the list of styles is empty.
19:10:42 <AnMaster> N(x) -> N(x+1)
19:10:45 <AnMaster> not fast growing
19:10:47 <AnMaster> but infinite
19:11:14 <oklofok> buzzy beavor
19:11:45 <Hiato> Yeah, AnMaster: It would be nice, and hugely recursive, but again,it's infinite and thus incomputable thus violating two of the rules in the OP, but there are faster growing ones
19:11:52 <Hiato> oklofok, yeah, already tried
19:11:58 <AnMaster> Hiato, ah
19:12:01 <AnMaster> hm
19:12:13 <AnMaster> any number of arguments allowed?
19:12:30 <Hiato> Sure
19:12:41 <AnMaster> then I _think_ it is easy
19:12:50 <AnMaster> to make it as fast growing as you want
19:13:00 <fizzie> Yes, it was missing styles.list.
19:13:04 <Hiato> Oh?
19:13:13 <zuff> fizzie: works now? :D
19:13:18 <fizzie> Seems to.
19:13:25 <zuff> :DD
19:13:26 <oklofok> Hiato: tried what?
19:13:34 <fizzie> The nickname is registered, though. Not in use right now, but still.
19:13:44 <zuff> Yeah, well.
19:13:48 <Hiato> oklofok: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7469&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=120#p1119569
19:13:48 <zuff> Thanks.
19:13:58 <Hiato> AnMaster: what's the idea?
19:14:04 <AnMaster> working on it...
19:14:18 <fizzie> The raw log doesn't show anything I send, so I won't see them replies.
19:14:29 <AnMaster> N(0,b,c,d) -> d N(a,b,c,d) -> N(a,b,c-1,d+1)
19:14:41 <AnMaster> not finished
19:14:58 <AnMaster> but the basic idea is that you for each level make it recursively add to the last argument
19:15:06 <AnMaster> using the others as counter, adding huge amounts to them
19:15:13 <AnMaster> recursively
19:15:21 <AnMaster> for each recursion
19:15:22 -!- Corun has changed nick to BurgerFuel.
19:15:30 <AnMaster> I think something like that _may_ work
19:15:37 <zuff> fizzie: that lasted long
19:15:39 <Hiato> Currently I think this to be the greatest number in the competition: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7469&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=b2fb64934328f8712614dc0c394f9f0a&start=200#p1206232 which relies on this http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7469&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=80#p1096078
19:15:40 <AnMaster> N(a,b,c,d) -> N(a+,b+,c-1,d+1
19:15:44 <AnMaster> then when c reach 0
19:15:48 <AnMaster> begin with next
19:15:54 <AnMaster> also define several sub recursions for each
19:16:02 <fizzie> Yes, how intolerant. It wouldn't even have looped for any more messages.
19:16:15 <Hiato> Yeah, I've basicly done that in my recent one. While you decrease one argument, increase another etc
19:16:23 <zuff> fizzie: indeed. what pigs.
19:16:59 <AnMaster> Hiato, yes and add a huge amount of arguments + increase several at once, make each such call increase everything else
19:17:20 <AnMaster> probably nest it lick
19:17:21 <AnMaster> like*
19:17:58 <fizzie> oklofok: Oh. Just the plain old IRCnet.
19:17:59 <Hiato> Yeah, the idea is awesome, the thing is you have to find a way to make it grow in value incomprehensibly at the same time as making it massively recursive
19:18:10 <AnMaster> N(a,b,c,d) -> N(N(N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1)),N(N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1)),N(N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1),N(a,b,c,d-1)))
19:18:11 <AnMaster> or something
19:18:47 <AnMaster> I can't be arsed to work out the details
19:18:52 <AnMaster> but the general concept should work
19:19:00 <AnMaster> Hiato, as long as you give credits to me ;)
19:19:02 <Hiato> Yeah, though, I hat to say it, but relatively, that is less recursive than some other numbers
19:19:11 <Hiato> Though, AnMaster, you seem to have something there
19:19:25 <AnMaster> Hiato, yes, just a rouge sketch
19:19:28 <Hiato> so I'll definitely try to use it - and yeah, you'll get the credit :P
19:19:30 <AnMaster> add 10-15 arguments more
19:19:34 <AnMaster> or whatever
19:19:42 <zuff> A(G_A(G_64,G_64),A(G_64,G_64))
19:19:46 <zuff> err
19:19:48 <zuff> A(G_A(G_64,G_64),G_A(G_64,G_64))
19:19:53 <oklofok> fizzie: yes i know, as i said.
19:19:57 <Hiato> Sure, of course, and make it call itself as a supplmemntary argument as well
19:19:59 <AnMaster> zuff, very nice, but just nest them a few more levels
19:19:59 <Slereah-> What's G?
19:20:01 <oklofok> i've whoissed you on all networks i'm on.
19:20:04 <oklofok> :)
19:20:05 <Slereah-> Oh, Graham?
19:20:07 <zuff> Slereah-: graham
19:20:10 <zuff> so we do
19:20:18 <zuff> the G number indexed by A(g64,g64)
19:20:18 <Hiato> zuff: that is A(G_xkcd,G_xkcd) which is puny
19:20:19 * oklofok is an all-around stalker
19:20:19 <Slereah-> Use busy beaver :o
19:20:20 <Hiato> :P
19:20:21 <zuff> and apply it to A
19:20:24 <zuff> Hiato: :P
19:20:38 <Slereah-> It's a huge-number generator not used enough
19:20:42 <Slereah-> Plus, it's on a turing machine!
19:20:49 <Hiato> slereah: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7469&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=120#p1119569
19:21:02 <Slereah-> Yay :D
19:21:07 <Slereah-> I <3 U Hiato
19:21:07 <fizzie> oklofok: I also used to be on dalnet and efnet, but I can't even remember what channels, except dalnet's #alt.suicide.bus.stop, I think.
19:21:22 <zuff> alt.suicide.bus.stop is lulzy
19:21:27 <Hiato> Oh, and the numbers from page four are way to large to be computed these days
19:21:32 <zuff> as is its newsgroup parent
19:22:05 <fizzie> I think hanging on their IRC channel got my picture to some Italian magazine about those crazy Internet people.
19:22:13 * Hiato slaps Slereah with a mackerel
19:22:22 <Slereah-> Is this foreplay?
19:22:29 <zuff> mackerel is the b nomic currency
19:22:52 <Hiato> Lol, and er?
19:22:58 <Slereah-> YOU FOUND : ONE MACKEREL!
19:23:06 <Slereah-> *Zelda music*
19:23:16 <zuff> Hiato: b.nomic.net
19:23:18 <Hiato> Hahaha - so, so, so sad
19:23:26 <Hiato> will do Ehird
19:23:53 -!- BurgerFuel has changed nick to CorunFuel.
19:24:15 <oklofok> who wouldn't
19:24:18 <Hiato> vabot
19:24:18 <vabot_> Hiato: Due to a required test protocol, we will not monitor the next chamber, you will be entirely on your own. Good Luck
19:24:50 <Hiato> God's truth oklofok - is everything here destined to be mis-interpreted? :P
19:26:57 <AnMaster> Hiato, hm I read about some math professors doing something like that recently
19:27:11 <Hiato> Oh?
19:27:43 <AnMaster> one of them ended up with something like (don't remember exactly) "the smallest number that is larger than any number of a finite <something> set"
19:27:50 <AnMaster> or such
19:28:13 <Hiato> Oh, Aleph-null? Hrmm, interesting, I don't suppose you have the link...
19:28:14 <oklofok> Hiato: intentionally yes. accidentally only if AnMaster is online ;)
19:28:27 <AnMaster> oklofok, what?
19:28:30 <oklofok> well okay he hasn't done that for a while
19:28:46 <oklofok> AnMaster: you're oerjan's official pun-misinterpreter
19:28:48 <AnMaster> also I was talking about the big number
19:29:02 <oklofok> oh? you misunderstood what i was saying
19:29:04 <oklofok> i see, i see :P
19:29:07 <zuff> Hiato: [stalk mode]
19:29:08 <zuff> (hence forth referred to as Esolangs - whose root word remains unknown to me)
19:29:13 <zuff> [eso]teric-[lang]uages
19:29:19 <AnMaster> oklofok, no I was not reading current convo
19:29:25 <AnMaster> I was thinking about big numbers
19:29:33 <Hiato> ehird: Agreed
19:29:34 <AnMaster> Hiato, hm think I found it
19:29:39 <AnMaster> http://tech.mit.edu/V126/N64/64largenumber.html
19:29:41 <AnMaster> there
19:29:47 <Hiato> Thanks, will check it out now
19:29:50 <AnMaster> from last year
19:31:41 <AnMaster> Hiato, ah it was "The smallest number bigger than any number that can be named by an expression in the language of first order set-theory with less than a googol (10100) symbols."
19:31:53 <AnMaster> that 10100 seems wrong
19:31:57 <AnMaster> should be 10^100
19:32:19 <Hiato> hrmm, yes, though there is a problem with that
19:32:23 <Hiato> let me find the link
19:32:27 <AnMaster> Hiato, oh?
19:32:35 <Hiato> http://www.scottaaronson.com/writings/bignumbers.html
19:32:42 <Hiato> but, essentially:
19:33:28 <AnMaster> ?
19:33:29 <Hiato> One plus the biggest whole number nameable with 1,000 characters of English text This number takes at least 1,001 characters to name. Yet we’ve just named it with only 80 characters! Like a snake that swallows itself whole, our colossal number dissolves in a tumult of contradiction. What gives?
19:33:32 <Hiato> From there down
19:33:34 <AnMaster> hm
19:35:44 -!- AquaLoqua has joined.
19:36:08 <AquaLoqua> vabot die
19:36:09 <vabot_> Goodbye cruel world
19:36:09 -!- vabot_ has quit ("underflow").
19:36:13 <AnMaster> Hiato, ah that differs a bit doesn't it?
19:36:35 <AnMaster> first order logic vs. english
19:36:43 <Hiato> Well, the syntax is different, but the concept is the same
19:37:07 <oklofok> category theory explains that phenomenon
19:37:09 <AnMaster> true
19:37:12 <AnMaster> oklofok, oh?
19:37:14 <Hiato> The largest number one can notate within a given number of symbols is elegantly beaten by it's definition
19:37:38 -!- AquaLoqua has quit (Client Quit).
19:37:52 <oklofok> well, basically it defines set as something that cannot contain certain sets, you need classes (?) for that
19:37:59 <oklofok> i don't really understand it.
19:38:06 <oklofok> so i can't say much about it
19:38:40 <zuff> hmm
19:38:42 <zuff> paradox :- not(paradox).
19:38:51 <zuff> is that the prolog translation of "is the answer to this question false?"
19:38:52 <zuff> I think so
19:38:59 <Hiato> Well, I don't know much about that approach, but logic most certainly invalidates this
19:39:48 <Hiato> Ehird: What is the answer to this question?"
19:39:48 <Hiato> "This statement is neither true nor false"
19:39:48 <Hiato> "Why doesn't this question have an answer?"
19:39:48 <Hiato> "The following statement is false. The previous statement is true"
19:40:18 <zuff> Hiato: I mean
19:40:22 <lament> The following statement is false.
19:40:23 <zuff> How do you say, in Prolog, the statement
19:40:29 <zuff> "This statement is false."
19:40:53 <Hiato> Oh, I see :P Still, the irrelevance and obscurity of my quotes should be entertaining enough
19:40:55 <lament> in haskell, x = not x
19:41:06 <zuff> lament: i don;'t think so
19:41:07 * Hiato leaves for a brief ice-cream break
19:42:45 <lament> ok then
19:44:26 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:45:59 <lament> it's equivalent though
19:46:24 <lament> suppose we have a statement X that says "X is false"
19:46:27 <lament> X == false
19:46:35 <lament> expanding X:
19:46:38 <lament> (X == false) == false
19:46:43 <lament> simplifying:
19:46:45 <lament> X == true
19:46:49 <zuff> mm
19:46:51 <lament> expanding X:
19:46:54 <lament> (X == false) == true
19:46:57 <lament> simplifying:
19:46:59 <lament> X == false
19:47:00 <lament> etc
19:47:01 <zuff> uh oh
19:47:06 <zuff> oh
19:47:07 <zuff> thank god
19:47:08 <lament> so X == not X
19:47:08 <zuff> :D
19:49:01 <AnMaster> Hiato, also there is an easy way to always post a number bigger than the last posters number
19:49:06 <AnMaster> copy paste it, add +1
19:49:08 <AnMaster> :D
19:50:01 <oklofok> big numbers and paradoxes are boring
19:50:36 <lament> boredom is boring
19:50:47 <AnMaster> hey that wasn't a meme
19:50:49 <AnMaster> you meant:
19:50:54 -!- CorunFuel has quit ("Leaving").
19:50:55 <AnMaster> boring boredom is boring
19:50:57 <AnMaster> :DF
19:50:59 <zuff> no.
19:50:59 <AnMaster> :D*
19:51:00 <zuff> he didn't.
19:51:04 <AnMaster> zuff, yes he did
19:54:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
20:02:43 <Hiato> AnMaster: Again, in violation of the OP :P
20:02:47 <Hiato> oh and
20:02:57 * Hiato returns from the ice-cream break, non the hotter
20:03:27 <Slereah-> I disagree.
20:03:33 <Slereah-> YOU ARE ONE HOT INDIVIDUAL
20:03:35 <Slereah-> WINK WINK
20:04:23 <Hiato> Oooh, oh my... so subtle, yet attractive too
20:05:33 <Slereah-> Subtle. Like my dick. Which I am about to shove in your mouth
20:05:46 <Slereah-> Allright I'll stop.
20:07:19 <Hiato> Oh, no, please, don't feel compelled - it was just getting inappropriate
20:08:05 <zuff> get a channel
20:08:19 <Hiato> Slereah?
20:08:28 <Slereah-> That's me.
20:08:44 <Hiato> ... channel ideas?
20:09:02 <zuff> #hiato_and_slereahs_hot_loving
20:09:14 <Slereah-> Nah, that's the name of our paying website
20:09:52 -!- Slereah- has changed nick to Slereah.
20:10:05 <Hiato> See, future planning, that's where you phail zuff
20:10:17 <zuff> lol
20:13:02 <AnMaster> Hiato, OP?
20:14:19 <Hiato> Original Post (methinks) - basically the rules for the post/description of what is needed/requested
20:17:20 <Hiato> http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18573 - lol
20:17:49 <Slereah> Needs moar esoOS
20:17:53 <oklofok> EVERYBOOOODY YEAH
20:17:55 <oklofok> WOOOO-O
20:17:59 <Slereah> woo
20:18:00 <oklofok> ROCK YOUR BOOOOOOODY YEAH
20:18:14 <Slereah> I'll rock your body alright!
20:18:24 <Slereah> And by that I mean STONE YOU YOU SHAMELESS WHORE
20:18:33 <Slereah> COVER YOUR BODY AND STOP THIS DEMONIC DANCING
20:18:35 <oklofok> ...wait how did you turn that into something sexual?!? :o
20:18:37 <Hiato> Damn, slereah, I though *WE* had something special
20:18:51 <oklofok> Slereah: are you covering for psygnisfive today?
20:19:05 <Slereah> since when is stoning threats gay?
20:19:24 <Slereah> Are you calling Iran gay?
20:19:24 <Slereah> 'cause I'm telling.
20:19:32 <oklofok> :)
20:19:34 <oklofok> oh you
20:19:39 <oklofok> and your silly anecdotes
20:19:43 <Hiato> O_o
20:23:15 <psygnisfive> hey kids
20:23:19 <psygnisfive> oklofok: no hes not
20:23:25 * psygnisfive pounces oklofok
20:23:47 <Slereah> psygnisfive : I'll cover you!
20:23:58 <psygnisfive> x.x
20:26:58 <oklofok> :oo
20:27:38 <psygnisfive> so i have to say
20:27:42 <psygnisfive> being drunk is really boring
20:28:56 <oklofok> being drunk occasionally makes the little things more fun
20:29:06 <oklofok> but you can't do the big things, because those require brain.
20:29:41 <oklofok> for instance i can never get myself to wash the dishes, but give me a bottle of vodka, and it becomes trivial.
20:29:51 <psygnisfive> lol
20:30:16 <psygnisfive> i mean boring in that the drug produces no fun mental or physical effects
20:30:17 <oklofok> but yes, being drunk isn't that much fun
20:30:23 <oklofok> yes
20:30:34 <oklofok> it usually just numbs you
20:30:42 <oklofok> at least that's the most noticeable effect
20:30:46 <psygnisfive> yeah, it was indeed numbing
20:30:57 <psygnisfive> the whole experience was much like DXM actually
20:31:04 <psygnisfive> only DXM eventually produces dissociation
20:31:21 <psygnisfive> i suspect alcohol might do that eventually too but i think it'd be too difficult for me to consume enough to do that
20:31:47 <Slereah> Maybe you should do drugs instead.
20:31:51 <Slereah> Winners do drugs.
20:31:51 <psygnisfive> i.. do?
20:32:23 <Slereah> WHAT DRUGS
20:32:34 <Slereah> TELL ME, MY FRIENDS IN THE PARTYVAN WOULD LIKE TO KNOW
20:32:44 <Slereah> YOU ENJOY PARTY, RIGHT?
20:32:55 <psygnisfive> ive done DXM the most, tried salvia, and tried lsd. the latter two never actually got anywhere D:
20:33:05 <Slereah> DXM?
20:33:25 <Slereah> Oh, cough syrup.
20:33:54 <psygnisfive> indeed
20:34:10 <psygnisfive> tho dont let that cause you to think it's trivial
20:34:18 <psygnisfive> DXM is essentially identical to Ketamine
20:34:25 <psygnisfive> in terms of effects
20:34:27 <Slereah> I could use some cough syrup myself
20:34:34 <Slereah> Not for drugs, though. I have a cold :(
20:34:46 <oklofok> psygnisfive: how much did you consume?
20:35:02 <oklofok> i usually drink 15-20 beers
20:35:07 <psygnisfive> if you plan on ever doing dxm, get cough gels. the syrups often have other crap that will destroy your liver.
20:35:23 <psygnisfive> oklofok: ehh 12-16 oz of 42% sambuca
20:35:30 <oklofok> (well used to, nowadays i don't really drink)
20:35:41 <oklofok> hmm
20:36:02 <oklofok> i have no idea how much that is in terms of beer, how much is 1 oz
20:36:43 <psygnisfive> 1 US fluid ounce = 29.5735296 milliliters
20:37:09 <oklofok> okay so that's half a liter or smth
20:37:19 <psygnisfive> ok
20:37:50 <oklofok> "ok"? :P
20:38:01 <oklofok> "i believe you o great mathemagician"
20:38:31 <psygnisfive> :P
20:39:20 <oklofok> anyway that's a good dose if you aren't used to drinking, you should have experienced "being drunk"
20:39:31 <psygnisfive> i did
20:39:38 <psygnisfive> it just wasnt terribly interesting
20:39:42 <psygnisfive> i dont see what people get out of it
20:39:51 <oklofok> being with friends.
20:39:52 <psygnisfive> and i certainly dont see why they're so incompetent on it
20:40:00 <psygnisfive> im with friends all the time!
20:40:04 <psygnisfive> and i dont even need to get drunk!
20:40:10 <oklofok> you're not finnish.
20:40:17 <psygnisfive> you're right
20:40:20 <fizzie> "Imaginary friends don't count."
20:40:20 <psygnisfive> im a crazy linguist
20:40:23 <Slereah> I'm finnish.
20:40:24 <psygnisfive> and so are all my friends
20:40:30 <Slereah> Even though I was not born in Finland
20:40:34 <Slereah> Or from Finn parents.
20:40:42 <Slereah> Because Finn is a way of being, you see.
20:40:50 <oklofok> yes, definitely
20:41:00 <oklofok> if you understand that, you are automatically finnish.
20:41:17 <Slereah> Yay!
20:41:28 <Slereah> I hope I don't have to pay Finn taxes though
20:42:09 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
20:44:29 <oklofok> we don't have taxes here, every week we sacrifice a few hundred citizens (poison gas) and take their money
20:45:07 <oklofok> probably more than a few hundred, i'm not a politician
20:45:33 <oklofok> not politician, that other thing.
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20:56:51 <bsmntbombdood> oh, drugs
20:57:30 <bsmntbombdood> i want to get my hands on some lsd
21:04:52 <AnMaster> huh
21:05:01 * AnMaster read a bit of scrollback
21:05:04 <AnMaster> made no sense
21:05:52 <oklofok> :D
21:10:19 <psygnisfive> guys
21:10:23 <psygnisfive> how do you say <tuple>?
21:10:45 <bsmntbombdood> two-pull
21:10:47 <psygnisfive> is the <u> in <tuple> the <oo> in <too> or the <u> in <but>?
21:10:55 <Slereah> Heh.
21:10:56 <Slereah> butt.
21:11:59 <psygnisfive> anyone else?
21:12:15 <Slereah> With /u/.
21:12:25 <fizzie> I would've used the butt variant, I think.
21:12:31 <Slereah> Although actually, I never use tuple.
21:12:36 <Slereah> I always say ordered pair.
21:12:47 <psygnisfive> what about a 5-tuple, slereah?
21:13:01 <fizzie> I think en:tuple is officially fi:monikko, which sort-of sucks, since that word has a lot more common meaning of en:plural.
21:13:01 <psygnisfive> ok so one for /u/, one for /V/
21:13:10 <psygnisfive> and slereah doesn't say it
21:13:29 <Slereah> psygnisfive : You can build a 5-tuple with ordered pairs
21:13:33 <psygnisfive> wee i like how fizzie is using the language prefixes :D
21:13:44 <psygnisfive> slereah: i can build a 5-tuple out of your mother
21:13:46 <psygnisfive> whats your point
21:13:57 <Slereah> No you can't.
21:14:07 <psygnisfive> sure can
21:14:32 <fizzie> My pronunciation is not something anyone should draw any conclusions from, since it's mostly guesswork. The native English speakers should comment on this.
21:14:45 <psygnisfive> fizzie: i say the same as you
21:15:25 <psygnisfive> the pronunciation is optionally /u/ as in <two> or /V/ as in <tonne>
21:15:47 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqKb1P_RKKk
21:16:50 <psygnisfive> oh boy
21:17:50 <psygnisfive> this is hilarious
21:18:04 <Sgeo> :)
21:18:19 <zuff> i'm pretty sure psygnisfive was being sarcastic
21:18:20 <oklofok> psygnisfive: two-pull
21:19:20 <psygnisfive> actually i love it zuff
21:20:39 <oklofok> but that's a word i've never heard used (well probably have, but haven't paid attention) nor checked, because i haven't had to say it
21:21:21 <oklofok> been wanting to check it though, because both pronunciations sound possible to me
21:21:45 <fizzie> I've spoken "tuple" the way I'd read it as a Finnish word, when speaking otherwise-Finnish but needing that particular concept, because I don't think anyone seriously uses the translation.
21:22:04 <fizzie> I'm not sure I can explain that pronunciation, though; maybe oklofok could.
21:23:00 <oklofok> you mean you don't think anyone uses the word "tuple" in finnish?
21:23:14 <fizzie> I don't think anyone uses the word "monikko" for it, even though that's what my dictionaries give.
21:23:28 <fizzie> Except maybe some database people, they are freaky.
21:23:46 <oklofok> ah.
21:23:57 <oklofok> some of our lecturers use it
21:24:07 <oklofok> and i think the rest use english.
21:24:17 <oklofok> but otherwise i've only heard "tuple"
21:25:07 -!- Judofyr has quit.
21:26:35 <AnMaster> poll: What project should I begin this xmas (apart from upgrading some servers and such that I have to do anyway): 1) Start learning haskell 2) Start working on a hobby OS (very basic, think, real mode only, very basic shell)
21:27:01 <zuff> 2)
21:27:03 <zuff> because it is not 1)
21:27:04 <AnMaster> note I may ask the same question elsewhere, and what I will decide may be based on several sources
21:27:07 <lament> write a hobby OS in haskell... in the type system!
21:27:20 <zuff> lament: you really don't want to inflict AnMaster learning another functional language on us.
21:27:20 <AnMaster> lament, hah, I think I will have to do 1 first then
21:27:25 <zuff> please think of the kittens!!
21:27:35 <zuff> i will personally kill 5 kittens if AnMaster chooses 1)
21:27:45 <lament> hm, yes, consider the kittens then
21:27:55 <AnMaster> well I asked this question in another channel and got 5 "1" so far
21:27:59 <AnMaster> well,*
21:28:18 <AnMaster> and just 1 "2"
21:28:29 <Asztal> they're both fun
21:28:34 <lament> 1 is easier, in the sense that it is achievable
21:28:35 <zuff> Asztal: god damnit
21:28:37 <zuff> i am dying here
21:28:43 <zuff> please think of the kittens
21:28:47 <AnMaster> Asztal, indeed, and I will probably try the other one later
21:28:52 <lament> 2 is not really achievable, and even if you do achieve it, all you'll have for it will be a really shitty hobby OS.
21:28:55 <oklofok> haskell is better
21:28:55 <zuff> after killing the kittens i will put them in the fucking lhc
21:28:59 <zuff> and make them die
21:29:00 <zuff> and the world will DIE
21:29:02 <zuff> and AnMaster will DIE
21:29:07 <zuff> and everything will STOP
21:29:10 <oklofok> dunno, a friend of mine recently made an os
21:29:12 <zuff> and I will envelop the UNIVERSE
21:29:13 <zuff> and it will DIE
21:29:18 <Asztal> I did 2 before 1, anyway. But I turned into a Ctard.
21:29:19 <zuff> and I will KILL IT
21:29:21 <AnMaster> lament, indeed, it would be like LFS, very interesting distro to install, and you learn a lot
21:29:24 <AnMaster> but usable? no
21:29:25 <oklofok> can't be that hard
21:29:25 <zuff> and I will KILL IT
21:29:29 <zuff> AND I WILL KILL IT
21:29:41 <lament> one track mind
21:29:53 <AnMaster> lament, well said
21:30:05 <AnMaster> err, that may be a Swedishism
21:30:08 <oklofok> how is a working os not usable, all you need it brainfuck, irc and some kinda word processor
21:30:12 <oklofok> and you can code those in a minute
21:30:13 <zuff> these kittens are eating my brain
21:30:18 <zuff> i am ready to strangle them
21:30:20 <AnMaster> oklofok, not so easy
21:30:34 <AnMaster> I have investigated these questions a bit
21:30:51 <AnMaster> and I will probably go for 1. but I don't know.
21:30:59 <zuff> AnMaster: here's something to put you off:
21:31:05 <Sgeo> Make an OS in Haskell!
21:31:07 <lament> AnMaster: http://learnyouahaskell.com/
21:31:15 <zuff> AnMaster: modern haskell is painful without compiler-specific extensions.
21:31:18 <zuff> including major ones.
21:31:21 <zuff> no standard!
21:31:30 * zuff watches AnMaster choke on his own breath
21:31:39 <Slereah> Don't do it AnMaster!
21:31:50 <Slereah> Beware of the monads!
21:32:02 <oklofok> AnMaster: it's easy. and you can't convince someone who doesn't know what he's talking about that he's wrong, so don't even try.
21:32:18 * Sgeo knows just enough haskell to make one stupid joke
21:32:44 <AnMaster> hm?
21:32:52 <AnMaster> also I'm going for 1
21:32:56 <zuff> agh
21:32:58 <zuff> /ignore AnMaster
21:33:02 <zuff> let me know when the nuclear fallout is over
21:33:08 <Sgeo> What did Goldilocks say upon seeing "Maybe (b -> Either a b)"?
21:33:09 <AnMaster> wait!
21:33:17 <AnMaster> scheme is said to be painful without compiler extensions
21:33:26 <AnMaster> after using it: I disagree
21:33:27 <Sgeo> /ignore zuff
21:33:28 <AnMaster> it is fun that way
21:33:28 <lament> Sgeo: hehe
21:33:41 <Sgeo> Funnily enough, in XChat, /ignore does not work that way
21:33:49 <zuff> funnily enough, xchat sucks dick
21:34:20 <fizzie> There's an OS project course in at least our university; they do build and OS there, and it doesn't seem to be terribly difficult. Okay, so they do get some skeleton code provided, but still.
21:34:26 <fizzie> s/and/an/
21:34:27 <Sgeo> lament, is that "hehe" at the joke, or at /ignore zuff ?
21:34:32 <lament> AnMaster: with haskell, unlike with scheme, there's only one compiler
21:34:35 <lament> Sgeo: the joke
21:34:37 <zuff> err
21:34:39 <zuff> lament: no there isn't
21:34:44 <zuff> ok, all the other ones suck
21:34:45 <Sgeo> "It's Just Right"
21:34:48 <zuff> and the interpreters suck
21:34:51 <zuff> but :P
21:35:15 <AnMaster> lament, indeed
21:35:26 <AnMaster> lament, I use erlang too, there is just one implementation
21:35:42 <zuff> lament: you are a really awful person.
21:37:48 <oklofok> Sgeo: what did she say?
21:37:59 <lament> zuff: i'm awfully real.
21:37:59 <Sgeo> oklofok, "It's Just Right"
21:38:16 <zuff> lament: yes. your continued existence is awful in light of recent events
21:38:37 <Sgeo> http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Humor/Goldilocks
21:38:46 <zuff> Sgeo: that page does not belong under Humor/
21:39:05 <zuff> also, that would be Maybe (Either a)
21:39:12 <zuff> oh, wait
21:39:20 <zuff> Right the actual constructor
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21:39:52 <oklofok> Sgeo: ah.
21:42:49 <AnMaster> also is zuff actually ignoring me?
21:42:51 <AnMaster> oh well
21:45:56 <oklofok> you'll probably know right after i answer you
21:50:21 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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21:57:52 <AnMaster> <lament> AnMaster: http://learnyouahaskell.com/ <-- thanks btw
21:58:01 <AnMaster> "This tutorial is aimed at people who have experience in imperative programming languages (C, C++, Java, Python …) but haven't programmed in a functional language before (Haskell, ML, OCaml …)."
21:58:02 <AnMaster> well
21:58:18 <AnMaster> I do know scheme and erlang, but it will still be useful I'm sure
21:59:56 <AnMaster> lament, I have already collected a small collection of links to Haskell tutorials
22:00:58 -!- Corun has joined.
22:01:13 <zuff> learnyouahaskell is only good if you like cartoons and code examples involving calling people gay.
22:01:14 <zuff> which i do.
22:01:30 <AnMaster> ah not on ignore :)
22:01:43 <zuff> yes on ignore.
22:01:45 <zuff> i just checked the logs.
22:01:55 <AnMaster> zuff, "real world haskell" looks quite interesting too
22:02:07 <zuff> it's not a good intro. also, stop learning haskell.
22:02:07 <oklofok> he goes to great lengths to be able to read everything you say yet ignore you.
22:02:19 <AnMaster> oklofok, indeed :D
22:02:21 <oklofok> he must love/hate you quite a lot.
22:02:34 <zuff> oklofok: the ignoring is symbolic of my fiery hatred.
22:02:38 <AnMaster> also what about the chicken
22:02:40 <zuff> the reading is symbolic of my morbid curiosity.
22:02:57 <AnMaster> zuff, suggestion: I don't ask you haskell questions, I ask someone else?
22:03:01 <AnMaster> what about that
22:03:04 <AnMaster> *shrug*
22:03:11 <zuff> it's still in here :P
22:03:22 <AnMaster> oh the answers will also be here then
22:03:28 <AnMaster> so you don't get around it any way
22:04:00 <zuff> in conclusion, fuck life
22:05:49 <zuff> someone give me some rss feeds to subscribe too. I'm trying out google reader to further convince myself that rss sucks
22:06:20 <lament> i like google reader
22:06:52 <zuff> it seems ok. the design made me puke though so i satisfied my inner wannabe typographer by installing http://helvetireader.com/
22:06:55 <AnMaster> zuff, I know some
22:07:39 <AnMaster> <lament> AnMaster: http://learnyouahaskell.com/
22:07:41 <AnMaster> err
22:07:44 <AnMaster> http://www.gentoo.org/rdf/en/gentoo-news.rdf
22:07:45 <AnMaster> there
22:07:50 <zuff> http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24812462-23109,00.html ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
22:07:53 <zuff> /insensitive
22:08:01 <zuff> AnMaster: yeah it would help if I used gentoo
22:08:09 <AnMaster> hm
22:08:42 <AnMaster> http://book.realworldhaskell.org/feeds/comments/why-functional-programming-why-haskell/
22:08:43 <AnMaster> ?
22:09:01 <Slereah> why-haskell <- because you hate yourself
22:09:11 <zuff> umm, why would I subscribe to the feed of comments on one section of a haskell book that I don't like all that much
22:09:20 <lament> speaking of RWH
22:09:26 <lament> i just got my copy yesterday
22:09:34 <zuff> lament: but you hate haskell
22:09:56 <AnMaster> zuff, hm was just random feed
22:10:25 * zuff adds his google reader feed to google reader, ending the universe
22:11:06 <zuff> damn, it works properly
22:11:08 <zuff> what a disappointment
22:11:44 <zuff> i should make a blog just to subscribe to it
22:12:02 <AnMaster> zuff, don't you already have a blog?
22:12:12 <zuff> not as if I post to it or anything.
22:12:23 <AnMaster> oh right
22:12:25 <zuff> also, it's technically down.
22:12:31 <AnMaster> ah
22:12:32 <zuff> also, that's tusho's blog/
22:12:35 <zuff> not mine
22:12:37 <AnMaster> ahha
22:12:38 <zuff> or ehird's.
22:13:24 <zuff> it occurs to me that I should probably just write yet another rss->email thing since I check my email often.
22:15:32 <zuff> hmm.
22:15:38 <zuff> that would be the _one single_ good use of html mail./
22:16:45 <zuff> crazy.
22:20:01 <zuff> wellllll
22:20:10 <zuff> it'd kind of suck in that you'd just get the title and source
22:20:16 <zuff> instead of a summary of the article
22:20:19 <zuff> in the list
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22:26:52 <AnMaster> zuff, I see why you like http://learnyouahaskell.com/introduction
22:26:53 <AnMaster> :D
22:26:59 <AnMaster> "Also, I think you can do Haskell development with that wacky mouse with one button, although I'm not sure."
22:27:12 <AnMaster> yes yes I know macs have two nowdays
22:27:16 <AnMaster> except on laptops
22:27:22 <zuff> "congratulations you got the joke"
22:28:21 <AnMaster> zuff, last I checked macbook and macbook pro still use single mouse button below the touchpad
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22:36:30 <Slereah> ...
22:36:33 <Slereah> WRYYYYYYYYYY
22:36:38 <Slereah> Mathematica no works ;_;
22:37:20 <AnMaster> Slereah, oh?
22:37:29 <AnMaster> what are you trying to do?
22:37:39 <AnMaster> I _may_ know some other software that does the same
22:37:49 <zuff> AnMaster: that is really not helpful
22:38:01 <AnMaster> zuff, oh? I was trying to be helpful
22:38:03 <Slereah> AnMaster : Convolutions.
22:38:04 <zuff> nor was your suggesting of trying another editor when SimonRC (i think) had a minor problem with another
22:38:12 <AnMaster> Slereah, ah hm, no idea
22:38:16 <Slereah> \!\(
22:38:17 <Slereah> \*SubsuperscriptBox[\(\[Integral]\), \(-\[Infinity]\), \
22:38:17 <Slereah> \(\[Infinity]\)]\((HeavisideTheta[t - T]*
22:38:17 <Slereah> A)\)*\((HeavisideTheta[t - T - \[Tau]]*A)\) \[DifferentialD]t\)
22:38:40 <AnMaster> Slereah, that looks like somewhat broken LaTeX notation?
22:38:50 <zuff> no
22:38:52 <zuff> that looks like mathematica.
22:39:04 <AnMaster> oh
22:39:06 <Slereah> Yes.
22:39:15 <Slereah> Mathematica looks like that in the real world.
22:39:22 <AnMaster> to me it looks somewhat similar to LaTeX
22:39:25 <Slereah> It only looks neato in Mathematica
22:39:39 <zuff> yeah, in mathematica that \ stuff transforms into real-mathematical-equation looking
22:39:47 <AnMaster> ah ok
22:39:49 <AnMaster> right
22:39:55 * AnMaster notes it does in LaTeX
22:40:14 <Slereah> Well, it should answer a function.
22:40:19 <Slereah> But I get infinity.
22:40:22 <AnMaster> example: LyX, has WYSIWYG LaTeX formula editor
22:40:23 <AnMaster> heh
22:40:26 <AnMaster> Slereah, :/
22:40:40 <Slereah> And I really don't want to do it by hand
22:40:46 <Slereah> And I must give something back friday
23:13:50 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:26:33 <Slereah> I received this from a random ICQ person
23:26:35 <Slereah> 364399558: , ! , , ! sex-gong()ru 25879
23:26:44 <Slereah> Must be some sort of secret code!
23:28:26 -!- wumpus_ has joined.
23:28:32 <wumpus_> hi
23:28:45 <Slereah> Hey dude.
23:29:11 <wumpus_> howdy
23:29:12 <Asztal> probably iso-8859-5
23:30:48 <lament> probably cp1251
23:31:06 <lament> Подготовься, друг! Тебе понадобится все свободное время, чтобы пересмотреть нескончаемые порно фильмы, которые мы припасли для тебя! sex-gong(точка)ru
23:31:23 <lament> yep
23:31:31 <Slereah> Sex gong.
23:31:46 <Slereah> I'm picturing russian men strinking gongs with their penises.
23:31:51 <Slereah> It's a million dollar idea.
23:34:22 <lament> sounds like something russian men would do
23:34:41 <Slereah> Well, it's Russia, they probably don't have the internet
23:34:45 <Slereah> You've got to pass the time
23:35:17 <wumpus_> Vodkadoes help
23:36:15 <zuff> hi wumpus_
23:36:18 <zuff> you new here? :P
23:36:38 <wumpus_> yep
23:36:56 <zuff> sacrificed some goats already?
23:37:23 <lament> You smell a wumpus_ nearby.
23:37:24 <Slereah> Humans are also accepted.
23:37:35 <wumpus_> nope, but I beat up my dog regularly :-)
23:38:03 <Slereah> Is it a puppy?
23:38:11 <wumpus_> no
23:38:18 <Slereah> Not good enough then.
23:38:36 <wumpus_> it s a St. Bernhard
23:38:50 <wumpus_> that is good enough
23:38:53 <Slereah> Nah.
23:38:57 <Slereah> They're not cute.
23:39:02 <Slereah> They're mops.
23:39:10 <Slereah> Barely alive
23:39:10 <Slereah> !
23:39:12 <wumpus_> ok next time it's your turn :-)
23:39:26 <wumpus_> lol
23:40:10 <Slereah> I will rape your dog.
23:40:43 <wumpus_> you are really brave Slereah
23:41:30 <Slereah> That's all in a days work.
23:41:36 <wumpus_> lol
23:41:38 <zuff> /topic #dogabuse
23:43:33 <wumpus_> what's up around here
23:43:41 <zuff> not much.
23:44:04 <lament> hello wumpus_, welcome to #esoteric
23:44:16 <zuff> lament here is your channel cofounder
23:44:31 <lament> we're a small multinational community dedicated to designing a programming language centered around sexual abuse of domestic animals
23:44:40 <zuff> naturally
23:44:42 <wumpus_> hi lament, you are also a fan fan of those BSD-games?
23:44:52 <Slereah> You don't want to know how to write a cat program!
23:44:57 <Slereah> *rimshot*
23:45:01 <zuff> groan
23:45:30 <wumpus_> my fortune-software started today with some ways to skin a cat
23:46:56 <wumpus_> so you are dealing with Satanic Code
23:49:13 <Slereah> It's really a bitch to type pentagrams.
23:50:16 <Asztal> I expected there to be a pentagram in unicode, but sadly no :(
23:51:32 <wumpus_> perhaps you did not mumble the right mantras while programming
23:54:14 <Slereah> http://www3.waterstones.com/wat/images/nbd/l/20/9780099403357.jpg
23:54:18 <Slereah> Fuck.
23:54:21 <lament> in Satanic Code, typing a pentagram is pretty easy: data Pentagram = Pentagram Point Point Point Point Point
23:54:24 <Slereah> Adaptation decay
23:54:26 <Slereah> TO THE MAX :o
23:57:18 <Asztal> that doesn't look like an inverted pentagram to me!
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23:58:23 <zuff> lament: pfft, you are not using Pan!
23:58:29 <zuff> type Image a = Point -> a
23:58:38 <zuff> type Point = (Float, Float)
23:59:34 <Slereah> You are not using pants
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2008-12-17
00:06:14 <zuff> checkerboard (x,y)
00:06:14 <zuff> | even x = if even y then white else black
00:06:16 <zuff> | odd x = if even y then black else white
00:06:18 <zuff> haskell is pretty.
00:06:29 <lament> so ugly
00:06:32 <lament> disgusting code
00:06:36 <zuff> lament: how is that ugly
00:06:39 <zuff> that's lovely code
00:06:45 <lament> the dimensionality is hard-coded right in
00:06:50 <zuff> wat
00:06:59 <zuff> lament: whaddya mean
00:07:00 <Slereah> Haskel is pig disgusting
00:07:04 <Slereah> Monad is murderer
00:07:06 <lament> makes me puke
00:07:11 <zuff> lament: wat
00:07:14 <zuff> Slereah: lol
00:07:27 <lament> zuff: it's a 2d checkerboard, and it's dimensionality is actually part of the program logic
00:07:34 <zuff> dimensionality?
00:07:42 <oklofok> the fact it's 2d
00:07:44 <lament> yes
00:07:45 <zuff> ah.
00:07:48 <zuff> well, so?
00:07:54 <zuff> it's a 2d checkerboard
00:07:57 <zuff> in a library for 2d images.
00:07:57 <oklofok> zuff: that's lack of modularity
00:08:03 <lament> if you have something like
00:08:04 <zuff> you're all bonkers
00:08:08 <oklofok> lament's point is you can't really generalize it.
00:08:14 <zuff> well duh
00:08:15 <zuff> of course you can't
00:08:16 <lament> struct point { int x, y }
00:08:19 <lament> then that's 2d
00:08:23 <lament> but at least it's easy to add z
00:08:33 <lament> and adjust whatever formulas
00:08:59 <lament> but in your scenario the dimensionality is stuck right into "if even y then white else black" in a non-trivial way!
00:09:20 <oklofok> well yeah but that's not a haskell issue on the other hand
00:09:39 <lament> i just wanted to insult zuff's code
00:09:39 <oklofok> you could (even x+y) it, and get over that
00:09:42 <oklofok> ah
00:09:44 <lament> to which i have no real complaints
00:09:48 <oklofok> thought you wanted to insult haskell.
00:09:54 <lament> but yeah, even(x+y) is way better
00:10:07 <oklofok> and then even . sum
00:10:08 <zuff> well, you can't even use even/odd on a Double
00:10:14 <zuff> as I have just discovered.
00:10:23 <lament> checkerboard (x,y) = if even(x+y) then white else black
00:10:27 <zuff> well yes
00:10:42 <oklofok> (even . sum) ? white : black
00:10:47 <lament> ugh
00:10:49 <zuff> checkerboard :: ImageC
00:10:49 <zuff> checkerboard (x,y)
00:10:50 <zuff> | even (x+y) = white
00:10:52 <zuff> | otherwise = black
00:11:07 <zuff> now to figure out why you can't uyse even/odd on floats/doubles :D
00:11:14 <zuff> well I guess I could just round it
00:11:17 <lament> because haskell sucks
00:11:25 <zuff> so does your mom
00:11:30 <oklofok> zuff: why could you?
00:11:46 <zuff> well why couldn't you
00:11:46 <oklofok> even with modulus
00:11:56 <oklofok> even with modulus defined for doubles, even doesn't really make that much sense
00:12:08 <lament> modulus SHOULD be defined for doubles
00:12:11 <oklofok> well i guess there's an obvious definition
00:12:14 <lament> and i ranted in #haskell for days about that
00:12:17 <oklofok> lament: naturally.
00:12:26 <lament> but even/odd clearly makes no sense for them
00:12:29 <oklofok> i actually haskelled assume does that already
00:12:38 <oklofok> lament: stop stealing my thoughts.
00:12:44 <zuff> welp
00:12:45 <zuff> checkerboard :: ImageC
00:12:46 <zuff> checkerboard (x,y)
00:12:48 <zuff> | even (floor x + floor y) = white
00:12:50 <zuff> | otherwise = black
00:12:52 <zuff> still pretty as hell
00:13:35 <lament> what type is white?
00:13:43 <zuff> Colour
00:13:45 <zuff> type Colour = (Int,Int,Int)
00:13:49 <zuff> r,g,b
00:13:56 <zuff> type Image a = Point -> a
00:13:56 <zuff> type ImageC = Image Colour
00:13:58 <zuff> type Point = (Double,Double)
00:14:00 <zuff> type Colour = (Int,Int,Int)
00:14:22 <oklofok> looks okay to me
00:14:53 <oklofok> and yeah you should round the coords if you're using it like that
00:15:13 <oklofok> but you shouldn't think that's the obvious definition for even for doubles.
00:15:20 <zuff> well yea
00:15:21 <zuff> still
00:15:53 <oklofok> i do agree even should be defined for doubles *somehow*, oklotalk defines everything, and it's pretty much perfect so haskell probably should do.
00:16:05 <oklofok> *should too
00:16:07 <lament> you mean
00:16:24 <lament> all values should be of one type, and all functions should be total?
00:16:31 <oklofok> lament: yes!
00:16:39 <lament> and all possible function names should be defined?
00:16:44 <oklofok> yes!
00:16:47 <lament> hm
00:16:52 <lament> consider using Jot :)
00:16:58 <oklofok> and all possible program codes should be parseable.
00:17:03 <lament> yeah, Jot
00:17:08 <oklofok> also oklotalk
00:17:12 <oklofok> isn't jot stack-based
00:17:14 <oklofok> that's cheating
00:17:30 <lament> joy is stack-based
00:17:37 <oklofok> is "}" valid in jot? of course i'm making an additional guess here
00:17:45 <lament> jot only has two operations, 0 and 1
00:17:46 <oklofok> or...
00:17:49 <oklofok> OH
00:17:51 <oklofok> that jot :P
00:18:06 <zuff> render :: Integer -> Integer -> ImageC -> [[Colour]]
00:18:06 <zuff> render w h img = map (\x -> map (img . (,) x) [0..h']) [0..w']
00:18:08 <zuff> where h' = fromInteger h
00:18:10 <zuff> w' = fromInteger w
00:18:12 <zuff> soooooo prettyyyyyyy
00:18:29 <oklofok> yeah sorry i wasn't thinking esolangs, because in esolangs it isn't really much to ask to have everything defined
00:18:34 <zuff> hmm
00:18:36 <zuff> that fails a bit
00:18:39 <oklofok> you can just use the brainfuck card
00:18:43 <zuff> it's n+1
00:18:49 <oklofok> i should get back to reading
00:19:03 <zuff> render :: Integer -> Integer -> ImageC -> [[Colour]]
00:19:03 <zuff> render w h img = map (\x -> map (img . (,) x) [0..h']) [0..w']
00:19:04 <zuff> where h' = fromInteger h - 1
00:19:06 <zuff> w' = fromInteger w - 1
00:19:13 <lament> it would probably look much more readable as a list comprehension
00:19:21 <zuff> it looks fine to me
00:19:22 <zuff> but maybe
00:19:27 <zuff> but damn, that's the first pretty haskell I've written
00:19:30 <zuff> it's just >clicked<
00:19:40 <oklofok> Integer -> Integer, here you are setting an arbitrary currying order for w and h, HOW IS THAT GOOD CODING?
00:19:44 * zuff writes scale :: Float -> Image a -> Image a
00:19:46 <zuff> oklofok: lol
00:19:57 <zuff> wait
00:20:01 <zuff> I don't even need an ImageC requirement ther
00:20:10 <zuff> render :: Integer -> Integer -> Image a -> [[a]]
00:20:10 <zuff> render w h img = map (\x -> map (img . (,) x) [0..h']) [0..w']
00:20:12 <zuff> where h' = fromInteger h - 1
00:20:14 <zuff> w' = fromInteger w - 1
00:20:35 <lament> oklofok: yeah, and in another function he used a tuple for the same thing
00:20:51 <zuff> no
00:20:52 <zuff> i didn't
00:20:55 <zuff> (x,y) is a point
00:21:00 <zuff> width and height are rendering details
00:21:14 <zuff> you should be able to pass around points
00:21:21 <zuff> but apssing around a width/height combination is useless it's just for rendering
00:21:34 <oklofok> lament: yes, my second point, but i assumed you'd fill that out for me
00:21:46 <lament> zuff: how often do you pass around just a width or just a height?
00:21:57 <lament> maybe you need a RenderingDetails datatype?
00:22:05 <oklofok> :D
00:22:11 <zuff> lament: just in render :P
00:22:16 <oklofok> i love being over-pedantic about code
00:22:27 <zuff> scale :: Double -> Image a -> Image a
00:22:27 <zuff> scale n img (x,y) = img (x/n, y/n)
00:22:29 <zuff> wow, that was trivial
00:23:02 <zuff> seriously
00:23:03 <zuff> that worked first try
00:23:32 <zuff> hmm
00:23:36 <zuff> should I make colours doubles too? :P
00:23:37 <zuff> Naw.
00:24:01 <oklofok> multiplication is pretty hard to get correct given a multiplication primitive, yes :P
00:24:21 <zuff> lol
00:24:56 <oklofok> if you're working on reals, scaling is trivial. it's only algorithmically interesting when working with discrete images.
00:25:11 <oklofok> if you're working with reals, you get scaling straight from the definition of scaling
00:25:12 <oklofok> which you did.
00:25:17 <zuff> well yeah
00:25:21 <zuff> however
00:25:23 <zuff> my rendering is discrete
00:25:26 <oklofok> i should read, i have an exam in 6.5 hours
00:25:28 <zuff> but it just calls as N.0
00:25:43 <oklofok> and i haven't read about my hintikka sets yet!
00:25:55 <zuff> hmm
00:25:59 <zuff> oklofok: do you know how to write out bmps?
00:26:08 <oklofok> you mean the format?
00:26:13 <zuff> ya
00:26:24 <oklofok> header, list of bgr iirc
00:26:34 <oklofok> just byte after another
00:27:20 <oklofok> header is the standard microsoft stupid_blah_here, sizes and file lengths, just look it up
00:27:31 <zuff> helfpul
00:27:39 <Asztal> it is very simple
00:27:46 <oklofok> it's so easy you don't need help, is my point
00:27:47 <Asztal> not as simple as TGA, but simple
00:28:00 <zuff> oh, tga is simpler?
00:28:09 * zuff looks up tga instead
00:28:23 <oklofok> i don't even know tga :)
00:28:44 <Asztal> easier for writing to, anyway, IIRC
00:28:54 <zuff> ok, a tutorial that isn't a spec? :D
00:30:50 <oklofok> for bmp you don't need a tutorial
00:31:04 <zuff> oklofok: well explain it
00:31:32 <oklofok> i don't remember, i reverse-engineered the format from the hex, it's just a few bytes of header, only things that are dynamic are (w,h), and file length
00:31:52 <oklofok> i was like your age back then, so show some balls :P
00:31:59 * oklofok leaves quickly!
00:32:16 <Asztal> and also there is a restriction that the rows of the bitmap must be padded to be 4-byte aligned
00:32:38 <oklofok> this i didn't know, but yeah figures
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02:22:10 <Asztal> renderTGA "blah.tga" (0,0) (256,256) (256,256) . supersample (0.25,0.25) . magnify 16 . rotateImage 0.4 origin $ checkerboard red white
02:22:12 <Asztal> fun :)
02:22:26 <Asztal> (kind of slow here, though)
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07:54:49 <oerjan> <zuff> Don't worry it's mostly perfectly innocent apart from the one bit which is all of it.
07:54:54 <oerjan> how reassuring.
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12:56:56 <ehird> 12:51 psygnisfive has joined (n=psygnisf@c-71-57-164-119.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
12:56:56 <ehird> 12:51 Asztal: renderTGA "blah.tga" (0,0) (256,256) (256,256) . supersample (0.25,0.25) . magnify 16 . rotateImage 0.4 origin $ checkerboard red white
12:56:58 <ehird> 12:51 Asztal: fun :)
12:57:00 <ehird> 12:51 Asztal: (kind of slow here, though)
12:57:11 <ehird> What is it with asztal and MizardX stealing everyone else's ideas? :P
13:42:28 <ehird> graph :: [Integer] -> ImageC
13:42:28 <ehird> graph lst (x,y) | (lst `genericIndex` floor x) > floor y = black
13:42:29 <ehird> | otherwise = white
13:42:31 <ehird> graph, but the wrong way around
13:42:37 <ehird> (vertiaclly)
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14:48:17 <Asztal> hey, I wasn't stealing it, I was borrowing it
14:49:43 <ehird> Yeah, but you both then take the idea and finish it while the creator sleeps. :-P
14:50:00 <Asztal> I'm impatient :D
14:50:31 * ehird rm Image.hs
14:50:33 <Asztal> you could build a raytracer out of this quite easily, too :)
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15:06:18 <Hiato> Is anyone here willing to quickly aid someone (me) struggling with a bit of horrible C++ (that is, all C++ is horrible)
15:07:23 <ehird> Why C++? Why god why? :P
15:08:46 <Hiato> Indeed - irrlicht is why, and I'm useless with Ogre, so my options are limited
15:08:53 <Slereah> I'm already barely able to hack some C.
15:09:27 <Hiato> Why doth the heavans punish us so?
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16:43:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there?
16:43:33 <Deewiant> aye
16:43:35 <AnMaster> I was going to implement DATE, but I'm unsure of the rcs specs
16:43:40 <Deewiant> unsurprising
16:43:48 <Deewiant> Mycology tests it, no?
16:43:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed and you implement it
16:44:04 <Deewiant> it's more precise than the specs, unless Mike changed the specs
16:44:19 <Deewiant> I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't amend them
16:44:28 <AnMaster> hm
16:44:31 <AnMaster> more precise how?
16:45:03 <Deewiant> tests some things which Mike accepted (read: I made Mike accept) as correct but weren't explicitly in the spec
16:45:14 <AnMaster> heh
16:45:33 <AnMaster> jd == julian day it says
16:45:39 <AnMaster> but that doesn't tell me much
16:45:45 <AnMaster> how is it defined
16:45:48 <Deewiant> wikipedia
16:46:21 <AnMaster> "The Julian date (JD) is the interval of time in days and fractions of a day, since January 1, 4713 BC Greenwich noon, Julian proleptic calendar.[1]"
16:46:21 <AnMaster> ok
16:46:27 <AnMaster> so it pushes in FPDP format?
16:46:30 <AnMaster> since it says fraction
16:46:33 <fizzie> Deewiant: "So if I edit the Wikipedia page, the definition changes?" :p
16:46:41 <Deewiant> fizzie: yeah, exactly
16:46:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: nah, I can't remember exactly
16:47:02 <Deewiant> probably in days so you ignore the fraction
16:47:03 <fizzie> If it says "julian day", it's probably just the day number without the fractional part.
16:47:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, damn you use tango instead of calculating it yourself
16:47:43 <AnMaster> if you have to consider leap years this seems painful in plain C
16:48:04 <Deewiant> I did about half of it myself and then realized that I can just use tango directly
16:48:25 <AnMaster> duh
16:48:45 <AnMaster> :/
16:48:51 <fizzie> Wikipedia has a calculation formula too.
16:49:00 <fizzie> If you trust it! I see no citations there!
16:49:05 <AnMaster> heh
16:49:12 <Deewiant> I think it gave a wrong answer which is why I turned to tango
16:49:13 <AnMaster> we will see if mycology agrees
16:49:20 <Deewiant> I probably misimplemented it though
16:49:25 <Deewiant> too many variables
16:52:05 <AnMaster> assuming roughly 365 days / year... (4713 + 2008) * 365... probably ~ 2453000 or so
16:52:18 <AnMaster> yes I know that is way off, like leap years, no year zero, and so on
16:52:52 <AnMaster> seems like a painful date representation for everyday use
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16:54:52 <fizzie> It's certainly nicer to calculate with than Gregorian dates; the numbers are just too big to be human-friendly.
16:57:21 <fizzie> Also it has a huge drawback in that the nice round-number celebrations will not occur during my lifetime; 2.4*10^6 was in 1858, and 2.5*10^6 will be in 2132. Well, I guess I can't be sure about that latter one, but I think I'll be a bit surprised if I'm still alive then.
16:59:56 <Deewiant> You probably won't be surprised then, if you are; you would be now, if you found out that you will be
17:00:33 <fizzie> Let's hope I remember to comment about it on the channel in 2132.
17:01:06 <fizzie> At least the Unix time counts seconds, so there are more excuses to celebrate. 1.25*10^9 is next August, for example.
17:03:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, hehe
17:03:57 <AnMaster> anyway you should celebrate powers of two
17:03:59 <AnMaster> not of 10
17:04:03 <AnMaster> for unix date
17:06:25 <fizzie> The 2^30th went already, and there's still some time before the year 2038 problem. Still, I might even be alive for that one, that's only 30 years to go.
17:09:02 <ehird> I will definitely be alive for that one. :P
17:09:27 <ehird> And most likely using a 64-bit computer and OS, you know, like os x 10.6. :P
17:09:34 <fizzie> Not if someone KILLS YOU. Not that I'm planning anything.
17:09:42 <ehird> tru
17:09:44 <AnMaster> throw new Object;
17:09:46 <AnMaster> interesting decipher
17:09:48 <AnMaster> err
17:09:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ^
17:09:52 <AnMaster> sorry for mistab
17:10:02 <ehird> throw new Knife(destination = AnMaster);
17:10:50 <Deewiant> yeah, what ehird said :-P
17:11:50 <fizzie> except Knife, k: print "it's not nice to throw knives at %s" % k.destination
17:12:27 <ehird> whoa
17:12:28 <ehird> python++
17:12:28 <ehird> XD
17:12:33 <ehird> it's c++ and python!
17:12:33 <ehird> horrid
17:12:51 <Deewiant> `catch` \(k :: Knife) -> printf "You hit %s. He collapses, blood pouring out of the wound."
17:13:08 <psygnisfive> ehird
17:13:12 <ehird> psygnisfive
17:13:20 <psygnisfive> why were you quoting my signin?
17:13:25 <ehird> wat
17:13:26 <fizzie> The named parameter in the throw just reminded me of Python; since that's not C++.
17:14:00 <psygnisfive> <ehird> 12:51 psygnisfive has joined (n=psygnisf@c-71-57-164-119.hsd1.fl.comcast.net
17:14:08 <ehird> o.o
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17:16:39 <psygnisfive> o.o
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18:14:04 <GregorR> LOL KITTENS PWNS!!!
18:14:06 <GregorR> Discuss.
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18:25:05 <lament> No.
18:25:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm I found some internal code in glibc that seems to solve one of the major issues
18:25:12 <AnMaster> for generic dates
18:25:23 <AnMaster> well license is ok so :)
18:25:39 <lament> AnMaster: have you learned haskell yet?
18:25:51 <AnMaster> lament, xmas holidays haven't started yet
18:27:40 <lament> that's ok. You have two hours.
18:27:54 <lament> The deadline has been moved, you see.
18:28:50 <AnMaster> lament, no
18:29:02 <AnMaster> and I wanted to learn it for fun
18:29:08 <AnMaster> and still want
18:32:36 <lament> I think I can recommend Real World Haskell
18:32:40 <lament> as the tutorial
18:32:50 <lament> it does seem to be good
18:33:03 <lament> (i'm just reading it myself)
18:33:09 <ehird> learn you a haskell
18:33:11 <ehird> end of.
18:33:15 <ehird> then go on to rwh
18:33:26 <ehird> lyah teaches you what haskell's about, rwh tells you how to write programs with it.
18:35:17 <lament> no
18:35:19 <lament> i mean
18:35:25 <lament> rwh starts from scratch
18:35:34 <lament> there's no need for another tutorial beforehand
18:35:34 <ehird> I know it does.
18:35:41 <ehird> But LYAH is a way better introductory tutorial.
18:35:50 <lament> if you're a child with ADHD.
18:35:54 <lament> which you are.
18:35:59 <ehird> I don't have ADHD.
18:36:09 <lament> oh.
18:36:32 <ehird> But regardless of any ridiculous cartoons to the side LYAH is nicely paced, simple but not condescending, and explains the concepts nicely.
18:36:40 <ehird> real world haskell is then useful to learn how to write real programs in hs.
18:36:57 <lament> sure
18:37:14 <lament> it seems so far, though, that RWH is nicely paced, simple but not condescending, and explains the concepts nicely.
18:37:25 <ehird> you already knew a lot of haskell, though.
18:37:52 <ehird> also, when there are two equal options and one has badly drawn elephants, the latter one wins out.
18:38:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why are there several literal � in mycology in the DATE code?
18:38:36 <AnMaster> some sort of non-printable char
18:39:46 <Deewiant> I don't think there are any non-printable chars, I avoid those
18:39:52 <Deewiant> but there will be non-ASCII bytes
18:40:14 <Deewiant> just a handy way of pushing values in the range 0-255
18:41:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm invalid in utf8 I believe
18:41:52 <Deewiant> duh?
18:42:02 <Deewiant> what makes you think it's UTF-8 :-P
18:42:20 <Deewiant> and why would I be so stupid as to use UTF-8 in Befunge-98 code
18:42:28 <AnMaster> true
18:42:31 <Deewiant> especially in Mycology - how UTF-8 works at the Funge-Space level is UNDEF
18:42:35 <AnMaster> but irritating when editor is set to it
18:42:42 <Deewiant> set editor to autodetect
18:42:51 <Deewiant> if editor can't, change editor
18:42:52 <Deewiant> goto 10
18:43:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well an interpreter could potentially interpret any non-ascii as utf8 then
18:43:12 <AnMaster> or whatever
18:43:20 <ehird> what
18:43:29 <Deewiant> The Funge character set is 'display-independent.' That is to say, character #417 may look like a squiggle on system Foo and a happy face on system Bar, but the meaning is always the same to Funge, 'character #417', regardless of what it looks like.
18:43:46 <Deewiant> it's not UNDEF, brain fart
18:43:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well you said it was
18:44:02 <AnMaster> indeed it isn't
18:44:02 <Deewiant> it's not UNDEF, brain fart
18:46:33 <fizzie> Well, it still doesn't sound portable to use characters as "a handy way of pushing values", especially in the >127 range, if no-one says you need to load the program as bytes.
18:46:46 <Deewiant> It does say, which is my point.
18:47:56 <fizzie> It *doesn't* say an interpreter couldn't read the input as UTF-8, still.
18:49:03 <Deewiant> I think it's a matter of how literally you take the spec and how portable you want to be
18:49:09 <fizzie> It just says the source files are made of characters, and characters have some associated numbers.
18:50:07 <fizzie> And it especially allows for having characters greater than 255; to me it doesn't sound too far-fetched to read in UTF-8 encoded source files.
18:50:09 <Deewiant> It also says that on systems where characters are single-byte, the values are in the range 0-255
18:50:28 <Deewiant> And the way I see it characters are single-byte on all modern systems; UTF-8 is just an encoding on top of that
18:50:44 <Deewiant> The fundamental unit of storage on modern OSs is the byte (besides the bit)
18:50:58 <fizzie> It could still be argued that "characters" are stored in multiple (a variable amount of) bytes.
18:51:59 <Deewiant> And thus we come to how literally you want to read it and what meaning you ascribe to "system" :-)
18:52:26 <Ilari> Sounds like discussion I had on this channel some time ago... :-)
18:52:29 <fizzie> Not that I care too much. But I think some Java-based Funge-98 core I wrote for one purpose or another used the character-based IO routines (especially since the spec says source files contain "characters"), which use the platform's default encoding for actual file-reading, which most likely is UTF-8.
18:52:43 <Deewiant> On Windows it most likely won't be UTF-8
18:53:01 <Deewiant> It'll most likely be locale-dependent (in europe, Windows-1252) or UTF-16BE
18:53:29 <fizzie> s/most likely is/might well be/, if you want to nit-pick; that's just a detail.
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18:54:22 <Deewiant> True. I guess I was jabbing at the fact that that code will work differently on different systems, which is generally a Bad Thing
18:55:24 <fizzie> Some could argue it's a Good Thing that it reads character-based text files the way the user expects them to be read, though. I don't have a firm onion on this.
18:55:51 <fizzie> I guess it's the interpreter's user's responsibility to feed it sources in an acceptable format, anyway.
18:56:18 <Deewiant> Yeah, I should think so.
18:57:13 <Ilari> And what about saving parts of funge-space? Some values are invalid as unicode codepoints, and some values exceed even what the original up-to-6-bytes UTF-8 can represent.
18:59:00 <fizzie> Unicode-invalid values including anything that's negative; I guess it's again rather undefined.
19:00:43 <Ilari> Presumably one could take as requirement that funge could dump anything funge-space might contain and can read its own dumps...
19:01:33 <fizzie> But "o" is defined in terms of "text files"; and anyway I don't think current interpreters make it so that 'o' followed by 'i' doesn't mess anything up.
19:03:22 <fizzie> Since the spec speaks of "text files", so I guess you could even map all invalid codepoints to U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER and claim to be conforming. The FILE fingerprint operations are more sensible anyway if you want to do "binary IO", whatever that means. At least the spec there (currently, anyway) sort-of says that W/R deal with values in the [0, 255] range and strip away higher bits.
19:03:47 <fizzie> Oh, and I see the current spec for FILE has added a 'D' "Delete specified file" command. That wasn't there the last time I looked.
19:04:50 <Deewiant> It was one of Mike's early additions.
19:05:33 <fizzie> Well, maybe it was there the last I looked, then, but it just didn't register.
19:27:13 <GregorR> I'm trying to write a program that will reliably thrash the memory cache so I can test how long a cache miss takes.
19:27:43 <GregorR> To do this, I'm allocating 128MB of memory, then stepping through a page at a time and doing nothing with it (but calling a function that the compiler can't know does nothing), then doing the same but stepping an int at a time.
19:28:00 <GregorR> Hypothetically, the second time around it should always be in the cache, so should almost always be faster.
19:28:03 <GregorR> But noooooooooo.
19:28:10 <GregorR> (Oh, I'm stepping 1,000,000 times either way)
19:33:42 <GregorR> Ah, well I'm an idiot.
19:33:49 <GregorR> Bump it to a billion and suddenly I'm seeing giant differences :P
19:34:40 <GregorR> On my Core 2 quad, a cache miss costs on average 2.705207e-08 seconds (27 nanoseconds)
19:36:19 <fizzie> To put that into perspective, light travels about 8 metres in that time. (Okay, so it doesn't really provide any sort of perspective; it's still nifty.)
19:37:16 <fizzie> Conclusions: light is slow as molasses.
19:38:13 <GregorR> lol
19:55:52 <Ilari> GregorR: You really can determine it to that many signaficant digits?
19:56:26 <GregorR> No, but it came consistently to something around 27nanoseconds for three runs.
19:56:37 <GregorR> (That is, it always rounds to 27 nanoseconds)
20:02:29 <Ilari> Does that test somehow preclude fist access to each cacheline from missing?
20:12:54 <Ilari> If time it takes to perform fetch that always misses is x and y for fetch where every nth acess misses, the miss penalty is not x - y, but n/(n-1) * (x - y), a relative error of -1/n. That's about 6% for n=16...
20:17:32 <GregorR> Touché.
20:35:49 <GregorR> Well now I'm confused.
20:36:26 <GregorR> I made some changes (amongst them, now the int-at-a-time loop actually just loops between [0] and [1]), and now the results I'm getting suggest that it takes only double as much time on a cache miss as a cache hit.
20:36:30 <GregorR> That can't be right.
20:37:29 <GregorR> Unless I have an absurdly massive L2 cache I'm ignoring ...
20:41:07 <GregorR> (And no, it's not that absurdly large :P )
20:47:58 <fizzie> Maybe your processor designer has just been more clever than you.
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21:43:29 <KingOfKarlsruhe> exec cmd "echo 'Hello world!' >> /dev/null"
21:46:30 <olsner> cmd and /dev/null?
21:47:08 <KingOfKarlsruhe> i'm chatting with /dev/null :)
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23:45:19 <ehird> nethack is 247760 fucking lines of code?
23:45:21 <ehird> holy shit.
23:49:25 <Dewi> note to self: re-aquaint with nethack instead of working today
23:50:01 <ehird> Dewi: Hi Deewiant--
23:50:19 <Dewi> I'm just Dewi
23:50:41 <ehird> if you don't like that name you can be (name = "Deewiant"; name[:3] + name[3:5])
23:51:28 <Dewi> oh crap they are testing me
23:51:43 * Dewi doesn't get the notation, sorry
23:51:59 <ehird> python
23:51:59 <ehird> :P
23:52:04 <Dewi> indexing from 1 or 0 ?
23:52:09 <ehird> 0
23:52:18 <Dewi> second param absolute or relative?
23:52:26 <Dewi> or should I say operand
23:54:02 <ehird> relative
23:54:05 <ehird> err
23:54:06 <ehird> absolute
23:54:17 <oerjan> i'm relatively sure it's absolute
23:54:28 <ehird> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Objectivist_C
23:54:40 <oerjan> but i can't absolutely rule out relative either
23:56:42 <Slereah_> A = A >:|
23:57:03 <Slereah_> Dude.
23:57:15 <Slereah_> I had the idea for an objectivist language before!
23:57:17 <Slereah_> THEFT!
23:57:24 <ehird> (cur) (last) 00:53, 21 December 2005 IMed (Talk | contribs) (New article)
23:57:34 <ehird> only change since: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/index.php?title=Objectivist_C&diff=1907626&oldid=447901
23:57:38 <ehird> wait...
23:57:40 <ehird> .wikia.com?
23:57:42 <ehird> fuck wikia
23:57:44 <ehird> they take over everything
23:57:57 <ehird> they have to fucking put their fucking grubby hands on every wiki
23:58:05 <ehird> first it's hosting, then it's a bunch of ads, a new theme, let's take over your domain
23:58:07 <ehird> pieces of shit.
23:59:58 <GregorR> My hair forms haircicles.
2008-12-18
00:02:27 <oerjan> you might want to wash it more often than once a month, then
00:10:43 <GregorR> You realize the unbelievably huge flaw in your logic, right?
00:12:20 <GregorR> Well, I'll point it out then :P
00:12:26 <GregorR> They're literal hair icicles.
00:12:34 <GregorR> The problem is that when I wash my hair I don't dry it well enough.
00:12:39 <GregorR> So the remaining water freezes.
00:14:38 <oerjan> ah
00:15:19 <oerjan> and yes, i realized the unbelievably huge flaw in your logic, right.
00:15:24 <oerjan> i mean my
00:15:29 <oerjan> darn copy/paste
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01:14:58 <Dewi> GregorR: he said 'wash', he didn't mean with water
01:15:06 <Slereah_> With urine
01:15:25 <oerjan> lava cleans off everything
01:15:41 <Slereah_> Nah, it leaves ashes and shit
01:15:44 <oerjan> and definitely cures icicles
01:15:53 <Slereah_> What you want is some antimatter beam
01:15:59 <oerjan> ah right
01:24:32 <Warrigal> Everything can be cleaned using a fingernail.
01:25:07 <oerjan> yes.
01:25:20 <oerjan> although sometimes the fingernail doesn't survive.
01:25:47 <Slereah_> Even radioactive wastes?
01:25:56 <oerjan> yes.
01:26:00 <Warrigal> Radioactivity is insignificant.
01:26:10 <oerjan> i never mentioned whether the _rest_ of you survive, either.
01:26:11 <Warrigal> It'll behave just the same chemically.
01:26:45 <Slereah_> Yes.
01:26:47 <Slereah_> Like lead.
01:26:52 <Slereah_> That sounds healthy.
01:27:10 <Warrigal> If a drop of wax gets on a piece of metal, it can be removed using a fingernail. If a drop of metal gets on a piece of wax, it can be removed using a fingernail.
01:27:18 <oerjan> lead is not unhealthy. as long as you don't lick your fingernail afterward.
01:27:53 <oerjan> oh wait i realized one thing that cannot be cleaned with a fingernail.
01:27:58 <oerjan> a blackboard.
01:28:05 <oerjan> just the thought makes me shiver.
01:28:11 <Warrigal> But saliva dissolves chalk. I think.
01:28:22 <Warrigal> It also dissolves everything that could possibly be on something.
01:28:27 <oerjan> possibly.
01:28:49 <Slereah_> What if you drop metal on metal?
01:28:52 <Warrigal> If the laptop you're using has gotten crusty, saliva will dissolve the crust.
01:28:52 <Slereah_> Like, you know
01:28:55 <Slereah_> MELTED METAL
01:29:11 <Warrigal> If a drop of metal gets on a piece of metal, you'll probably be able to remove it just fine.
01:29:19 <Warrigal> Especially if the piece of metal was dusty.
01:29:30 <oerjan> thus, always keep your laptop covered in a thin layer of saliva.
01:29:40 <Warrigal> Of course.
01:30:36 <Warrigal> Serious question: how come saliva seems to dissolve suckers so much more effectively than water?
01:31:11 <Slereah_> Because enzymes, I assume
01:32:48 <Warrigal> Do the enzymes just shove the sugar particles into the water?
01:32:59 <Warrigal> Or do they actually do something chemical?
01:33:12 <Slereah_> They break down some long-chained molecules, IIRC
01:33:39 <Warrigal> Do suckers contain any of those?
01:33:59 <Slereah_> I don't know, SUCKER
01:34:03 <Slereah_> *rimshot*
01:34:04 <Warrigal> I guess Wikipedia says they're "sucrose with corn syrup".
01:36:46 <Warrigal> Still all sugar.
01:37:02 <Slereah_> Delicious sugar
01:38:32 * Slereah_ waits for Warrigal to ask how many licks to get to the center of it next
01:40:57 * Warrigal waits for Slereah_ to stop waiting
01:41:17 * oerjan attempts to dissolve Warrigal with saliva
01:41:19 <Slereah_> THEN ASK, AND THE WAIT WILL BE OVER
01:41:25 <Slereah_> oerjan : Gay
01:41:37 <oerjan> you don't say
01:41:53 <oerjan> Slereah_: you just claimed he was a sucker. the experiment needs to be done.
01:41:54 <Slereah_> Yes I do.
01:42:22 <Slereah_> That excuse won't work when your mom finds out!
01:51:09 <Warrigal> Nothing can dissolve protein.
01:51:20 <Warrigal> And I'm covered in protein, so I'm indestructible.
01:51:36 <Slereah_> Try acid, you'll see mister invincible
01:52:35 <Warrigal> I can't imagine dissolving much in LSD.
01:52:42 <Warrigal> Which, as you know, is the only acid.
01:52:46 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoroantimonic_acid
01:52:53 <Slereah_> Try that nigger
01:52:54 <bsmntbombdood> i want some lsd
01:53:00 <Warrigal> Apart from amino acids, obviously.
01:53:27 <Slereah_> "The 1:1 combination affords the strongest known superacid, which has been demonstrated to protonate even hydrocarbons to afford carbocations and H2."
01:53:29 <Slereah_> :D
01:54:04 <Slereah_> "HF-SbF5 is rapidly and explosively decomposed by water."
01:54:05 <Slereah_> Heh.
01:54:16 <Warrigal> But proteins are made of amino acids, and everyone knows acids don't react with acids.
01:55:10 <Slereah_> Actually, it can even disolve sulfuric acid
01:55:27 <Slereah_> It's one tough motherfucker
01:56:04 * oerjan drops a bottle of antacids on Warrigal and watches his proteins dissolve
01:56:30 <Slereah_> ANTS D:
01:57:18 <Warrigal> Ah, but you've forgotten I've developed an immunity to antacids by chewing two tablets twice daily.
01:58:10 <Slereah_> I developed an immunity to bullets by shooting myself daily
01:59:18 <Warrigal> Too bad it's impossible to develop an immunity to death.
01:59:19 <bsmntbombdood> Warrigal: good luck with your Milk-alkali syndrome and/or alkalosis
02:00:08 <Warrigal> Holding one's breath is a sure cure for alkalosis. The oxygen converts to carbonic acid, neutralizing any bases in the bloodstream.
02:00:13 <Warrigal> Or there are too many bases and you die instead.
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02:09:41 <oerjan> always cover all your bases
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02:13:12 <Warrigal> How are they supposed to react with anything if I do that?
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02:14:17 <oerjan> well, basically, they cannot. but i thought that's what you wanted.
02:27:09 <oerjan> ais523: you there?
02:27:37 <oerjan> unlikely at this time, i know
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05:14:55 <GregorR> I'm thinking of making a metawiki. Basically, it acts like a wiki but directly edits files in its own directory. Maybe I've already mentioned this here :P
05:15:48 <Slereah_> wat
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06:52:17 <GregorR> I should sell Moxie to my friends who aren't willing to buy it in cases.
06:52:26 <GregorR> Then I'd be a Moxie proxy LAWL
06:52:29 * GregorR goes to sleep.
07:03:05 <psygnisfive> so guys
07:03:09 <psygnisfive> whats up
07:03:13 <psygnisfive> anything good?
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09:38:42 <Mony> plop
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10:46:14 <oklofok> ooooo
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10:56:22 <oklofok> why should Dewi be Deewi?
10:56:38 <Mony> why not ? :)
10:57:26 <oklofok> i was just wondering whether ehird made a mistake, which would let me lecture him about semiopen intervals.
10:58:10 <fizzie> Yes, it seemed like a curiously difficult way of saying [:5].
10:58:27 <oklofok> (a one-sentence lecture)
10:58:32 <oklofok> yes.
11:03:30 <fizzie> oklofok: Did you have some great channel suggestions to join for oh-so-interesting reading, in addition to this one here?
11:03:38 -!- metazilla has joined.
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11:04:24 <oklofok> anyway a clear warning sign should've been, if that was an error, that one of the reasons for using a semiopen interval is exactly so you can get continuous intervals [a, c) by catenating [a, b) [b, c)
11:05:05 <oklofok> which makes it a bit more "high-level", in some sense, because you have to do less "index-fiddling"
11:06:44 <oklofok> fizzie: the only channels i read for fun are this one, #algorithms, #ai, #proglangdesign, #haskell and #not-math
11:06:53 <oklofok> but i'm not saying any of them is that interesting.
11:07:05 <oklofok> #algorithms is really the only one where i actually contribute
11:07:12 <oklofok> oh and also #lojban, but you wouldn't care
11:08:28 <fizzie> "If you learned to speak Lojban, your communication would be completely unambiguous and logical." "Yeah, but it would all be with the kind of people who learn Lojban."
11:08:38 <oklofok> :)
11:09:44 <oklofok> that's pretty much the kind of people i want to have conversations with.
11:10:17 <oklofok> except not so much "people who learn lojban", but "people who wouldn't be opposed to learning lojban just because the user base consists of geeks"
11:10:53 <oklofok> then again, i don't learn languages so i can use them, so wouldn't be a good argument anyway
11:11:10 <oklofok> (same with programming languages, i know tons, but i just use python :))
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11:13:07 <oklofok> anyway, somewhat sadly, this is the only channel i've followed actively since i joined freenode, dunno why, maybe it was so often on-topic when i first got here ;)
11:13:43 <oklofok> nowadays i just know all the actives, so the social porn is enough to make everything interesting
11:13:58 <oklofok> (except the unix-blah of course, nothing can make that interesting)
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11:16:08 <fizzie> Oh, I'm sure you still hang around here just because of psygnisfive's constant affections.
11:16:23 <oklofok> :)
11:16:32 <oklofok> psygnisfive is quite new
11:16:43 <oklofok> and he hasn't done that that much anymore
11:17:39 <oklofok> also this channel makes me feel bad i haven't gotten noprob&friends working yet, which of course is a good thing.
11:20:26 <oklofok> i wish there was an option not to erase browsing history, but just make it not suggest those things anymore when i type them
11:20:52 <oklofok> i want to visit pages i've accidentally closed, but sometimes i need to erase the suggestions because
11:20:54 <oklofok> err
11:21:04 <oklofok> i'm buying gifts
11:22:23 <fizzie> You mean the URL bar suggestions, and in which browser?
11:24:20 <oklofok> i recently went back to IE
11:24:32 <oklofok> FF before
11:25:24 <Asztal> seems a bit of a funny time to do so :)
11:25:28 <oklofok> no one happens to know how to get IE open the "open in default browser" links in a new tab instead of new window? ;)
11:25:35 <oklofok> Asztal: how so?
11:25:39 <fizzie> Well, I don't know about IE. In FF (3, anyway) the URL suggestibility is configurable, and in any case you can selectively delete only those incriminating URLs ("gifts", right...) in the history window.
11:26:07 <oklofok> fizzie: ah, let's check if ie has that
11:26:25 <Asztal> I guess it's okay if you (a) installed the ms08-078 patch or protect against it otherwise (b) don't visit any of the 6000+ infected sites
11:27:33 <oklofok> Asztal: i don't believe in viruses, or anything like that.
11:27:46 <oklofok> never had them, never protected myself.
11:28:43 <oklofok> and i have no idea what you're talking about, mind sharing?
11:29:01 <oklofok> i'm not going to install a patch, if i did, i could just as well install the new firefox
11:29:09 <oklofok> both are impossible tasks!
11:30:13 <Asztal> http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=2317
11:30:26 <oklofok> i've never understood how any kind of intrusion could be possible really
11:31:19 <Asztal> apparently in this bug it's a case of removing an item from an array without decrementing the array size
11:32:02 <oklofok> that's not possible if the design is at all OO
11:32:17 <oklofok> and even if not, it isn't possible if the programmers aren't idiots
11:32:49 <oklofok> consequently, i'm not going to believe IE has that hole. therefore i'm safe.
11:32:59 <Asztal> good for you!
11:33:24 <fizzie> You are not going to believe something that Microsoft admits? Well, it's good to have principles, I guess.
11:33:45 <oklofok> :P
11:33:51 <oklofok> well okay maybe i believe it a bit.
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11:34:12 <oklofok> so IE is written in what, subleq?
11:35:04 <Asztal> C with classes, I think
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11:36:00 <oklofok> in cwc, you'd use vectors
11:37:31 <fizzie> The description I've seen about the issue has sounded more like "using a dangling reference to a free'd object", but I haven't seen any details, really.
11:37:51 <fizzie> "The vulnerability is caused by memory corruption resulting from the way Internet Explorer handles DHTML Data Bindings. -- Malicious HTML that targets this vulnerability causes IE to create an array of data binding objects, release one of them, and later reference it."
11:37:55 <fizzie> It's always so very vague.
11:38:00 <Asztal> I think my description pretty much amounts to yours.
11:38:27 <Asztal> maybe I misread, though.
11:38:46 <fizzie> Not really; any sort of automatical bounds-checking will catch "removing an element from the array and forgetting to decrement size".
11:39:09 <oklofok> well cwc doesn't have that for primitive arrays
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11:39:17 <oklofok> so it's possible.
11:39:34 <oklofok> it's just stupid, and never happens to non-noobs
11:41:04 <fizzie> IE code might not be especially pretty.
11:41:12 <oklofok> true.
11:41:22 <oklofok> we will never know
11:43:27 <oklofok> i just don't see how something as important-sounding as DHTML Data Bindings would ever be in an array without an interface in-between.
11:43:54 <oklofok> especially when such a restrictive interface, vector, exists
11:44:12 <oklofok> of course in c++ that won't always save you
11:44:23 <fizzie> I have just used Google Translate to translate the Chinese announcement from people that might've been the ones who discovered it.
11:44:34 <fizzie> "Construction certain conditions can be detected SDHTML make the release mistakes have been the target of distribution, but the release has been the target of the distribution of post-SDHTML did not return but were released to continue to use the memory of the implementation of the object, if the memory was allocated to other purposes , Will lead to SDHTML such as a memory object to the operation."
11:44:40 <fizzie> And there you have it!
11:45:24 <oklofok> well, all i get out of that is the "memory was allocated to other purposes" part, which is really obvious anyway
11:45:44 <oklofok> wait, did i say c++ there
11:45:44 <fizzie> There release has been the target of the distribution! Did not return!
11:45:50 <oklofok> what was that about!
11:46:00 <oklofok> xD
11:46:22 <fizzie> Be careful, ir might lead a memory object to the operation.
11:46:31 <oklofok> "Will lead to SDHTML such as a memory object to the operation." <<< i love this
11:46:37 <oklofok> :D
11:46:39 <oklofok> also that one
11:46:47 <oklofok> automatic translations are so much fun
11:47:16 <oklofok> yay first exam graded
11:47:25 <oklofok> now i needs coke
11:47:58 <oklofok> i libraried me a the c++ programming language, better start reading soon
11:51:14 <fizzie> The person grading the "Computer Networks" course referred us to http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=974 on the course IRC channel.
11:51:30 <fizzie> I'm not sure if it was some sort of a comment on the results.
11:51:37 <oklofok> you have course irc channels? :<
11:52:28 <oklofok> seriously. i'm moving to helsinki
11:52:29 <oklofok> today.
11:52:30 <fizzie> For a few courses. Nothing systematical. I think I've been on about six of them.
11:52:43 <oklofok> i see
11:52:56 <oklofok> most of our lectures are > 120 yo.
11:53:21 <fizzie> The TML people ("data communications and multimedia") tend to have IRC channels; the other departments less often.
11:53:42 <fizzie> Although the AI course has one, and the Scheme course used to have back when it still existed.
11:55:02 <oklofok> our basic algo courses don't even cover nondeterministic turing machines anymore, supposedly it was "too hard".
11:55:19 <fizzie> I think the "introduction to programming (Java)" thing that replaced the Scheme course also has a channel.
11:55:28 <oklofok> every year courses are dumbified a few bits
11:56:44 <fizzie> Same here.
11:57:49 <fizzie> Oh, the Java thing does have an IRC channel, and even an IRC guide since the course gets a lot of new-ish students.
11:58:32 <oklofok> i guess it's an inevitability, if you want more than the <20 people in turku who are actually interested to be in the uni, you have to make courses easy enough to pass without any effort.
11:59:02 <oklofok> our student organization has an irc guide, and a channel, but that's really it
11:59:35 <oklofok> i'd love course irc channels... well, i'd love them if i wasn't the only one enthusiastic about memorizing the whole book and talking about it ;)
12:00:39 <fizzie> They are usually pretty quiet.
12:00:48 <oklofok> probably.
12:01:19 <fizzie> The AI course channel is active only during the programming project part, when people complain about bugs and what-they-think-to-be-bugs and even I-would-have-done-it-differently parts in the framework code provided.
12:01:52 <oklofok> yeah, that's also guessuble.
12:02:37 <oklofok> i'd like to talk about the actual subjects, my ideas, and stuff like that
12:03:11 <ais523> <oerjan> ais523: you there? <--- I am now
12:03:14 <oklofok> what i'd like is a university full of geeks who have no life outside studying
12:03:16 <ais523> unfortunately, you seem not to be
12:03:45 <oklofok> and a competitive atmosphere, where failing a course might make you drop off completely.
12:04:35 <oklofok> ais523: when was that highlight?
12:04:57 <fizzie> 9-10 hours ago.
12:06:30 <ais523> oklofok: I don't know, my bouncer records comments but not timestamps
12:06:32 <oklofok> the problem is, most people in the uni think it's the partying and being with friends part that's the gist of university, and since the courses are adjusted for the majority, they don't really have much of a challenge
12:06:35 <ais523> and I can't be bothered to check the logs
12:06:42 <oklofok> ais523: understandable
12:06:47 <ais523> however, I would have replied like that even if it had been 3 days ago
12:06:53 <ais523> when was I last concious, anyway?
12:06:58 <oklofok> ais523: yes, me too, even if i saw the time stamp.
12:07:07 <ais523> I've been either asleep or programming for the last 3 days it seems
12:07:12 <ais523> asleep in the day, programming in the night
12:07:13 <oklofok> :O
12:07:17 <oklofok> coool
12:07:20 <ais523> making it quite hard to get to an Internet connection
12:07:23 <oklofok> whatcha programming
12:07:36 <ais523> I did a bit more of gcc-bf, but it's mostly been TAEB (a non-eso project)
12:07:50 <oklofok> i'm still interested
12:08:54 <ais523> it's basically a bot for playing Nethack
12:09:02 <oklofok> just nethack?
12:09:05 <ais523> yes, atm
12:09:17 <ais523> I'm basically working away at a corner of someone else's project
12:09:23 <ais523> they put me there to avoid me causing too much damage
12:09:29 <oklofok> :P
12:09:45 <oklofok> is it the same perl thing ehird linked?
12:09:50 <ais523> yes
12:09:53 <oklofok> ah okay.
12:10:05 <oklofok> i was assuming you started from scratch, but made it more general
12:10:06 <ais523> although I'm writing a different AI for the same framework
12:10:14 <fizzie> The Amazing E(?) Bot?
12:10:39 <oklofok> fizzie: i don't think ehird has contributed to the project
12:10:53 <ais523> mine AI hardly Elbereths at all, I'm trying to make it as different as possible from the existing one
12:10:55 <ais523> *my
12:11:33 <oklofok> oh elbereth.
12:11:41 <fizzie> "The E word."
12:11:49 <oklofok> was a bit of a leap of faith to think fizzie meant ehird :)
12:12:06 <oklofok> really the coke.
12:12:08 <oklofok> ->
12:12:09 <fizzie> Actually I meant "E-what? I don't know what this letter might mean."
12:12:15 <ais523> unknown option --gelp - try gplc --help
12:14:16 <ais523> oh, it stands for Tactical Amulet Extraction Bot
12:14:43 <fizzie> Sounds like an euphemism for A MURDER MACHINE.
12:14:57 <oklofok> ohh that's what you meant
12:15:30 <ais523> wow, I'm wading through my email
12:15:42 <ais523> and actually found a spam that I didn't guess was spam from the subject line
12:16:40 <oklofok> what was it?
12:16:59 <ais523> From: "Kevin Griffin", subject line: "From Kevin Griffin"
12:17:11 <ais523> the actual body of the email was blocked by my mailer settings
12:17:34 <ais523> spammers do all sorts of clever tricks to try to send mail in a way the spam filters don't pick up on its contents
12:17:46 <ais523> unfortunately, when they try that my mailer doesn't show me the contents either
12:18:02 <ais523> (this is vaguely the same technique as setting your useragent to Googlebot)
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14:20:16 <oerjan> <ais523> <oerjan> ais523: you there? <--- I am now
14:20:23 <ais523> wb oerhan
14:20:28 <ais523> *oerjan
14:20:42 <oerjan> just wanted to point out the recent wiki madness
14:20:51 <ais523> that bad? I'm still reading email
14:21:03 * ais523 checks the wiki
14:22:51 <ais523> time to use bot rollback on all that, I think
14:23:05 <ais523> watch the as-yet-unreverted edits magically disappear from Recent Changes
14:23:51 <oerjan> yay
14:24:09 <ais523> ugh, /how many/ spambots is that?
14:24:15 <ais523> I'll have to write a script first, probably
14:24:20 <ais523> or else be boring and use normal rollback
14:25:00 <oerjan> um, there were a few real edits too, last time i checked (before my ping this morning)
14:25:23 <ais523> any from anons?
14:25:29 <ais523> I'll look over the edit summaries first
14:25:35 <oerjan> hm i don't quite recall
14:25:37 <ais523> ah yes, some legits
14:25:43 <ais523> but I'm opening up all anons atm
14:26:16 <oerjan> but reverting everything from bots posting that specific subject should clean up a lot
14:26:39 <oerjan> FORM something
14:27:01 <ais523> yes
14:27:08 <oerjan> er, FIELD_
14:27:11 <ais523> luckily, it seems to be the same sets of IPs over and over again
14:27:36 <oerjan> a few of those random nonsense subjects too
14:27:55 <ais523> let me just check how to do bot rollback again, I know how to do it in theory but have never done it before
14:28:07 <ais523> so I'm going to read up on it to make sure I get it right first time
14:29:04 <oerjan> before my last edit, only article creations should be unreverted, in case that helps
14:29:37 <ais523> it's best if you don't revert for the time being
14:29:46 <ais523> for, say, 20 mins or so
14:30:03 <oerjan> ok there are just a few new ones anyhow
14:30:10 <oerjan> relatively speaking
14:32:23 <oerjan> of course i wouldn't mind if you rolled back my reverts as well, would clean up a lot
14:32:52 <oerjan> i usually use the undo button
14:33:43 <oerjan> (actually, don't do that on Joke Language List, that was not spam)
14:33:54 <ais523> I can't double-rollbacl
14:34:05 <ais523> and I'm just rolling back stuff with suspicious edit summaries atm
14:34:16 <oerjan> oh
14:34:18 <ais523> if someone posted a genuine FIELD_OTHER as a joke, revert me
14:34:57 <oerjan> i think there were some FIELD_MESSAGE in spams at one time
14:35:00 <ais523> I'm going to block them all next
14:35:05 <ais523> then I'll delete the spam pages
14:35:56 <oerjan> i don't think so. smjg used rvv for his revert subject, and i didn't change the undo subject
14:36:44 <oerjan> btw there are some spams that only use article section for subject
14:37:36 <oklofok> so you can revert reverts? is the whole lifetime of a wiki visible as a giant log?
14:37:42 <ais523> yes, it is
14:37:51 <ais523> oerjan: got them already, thanks
14:37:57 <ais523> oklofok: except that admins can delete bits of it
14:38:04 <oklofok> ah
14:38:10 <ais523> normally that's only for anti-copyvio, or whatever
14:38:19 <oklofok> ah okay
14:38:20 <ais523> for regular spam like this normally I (or anyone else) just reverts
14:38:30 <oerjan> i did revert a copyvio the other day
14:38:31 <ais523> except I delete the edit if it was the only edit to the page, just because that's easier in that ase
14:38:32 <ais523> *case
14:39:58 <oerjan> (someone copied a hello world from Morgan-Mar's page, which had no license information)
14:41:34 <ais523> ok, they're all blocked
14:41:37 <ais523> now to clean up the mess
14:44:35 <ais523> oerjan: does that look OK now?
14:45:11 <ais523> all but one of the changes I reverted I hid from Recent Changes too to help unspam it a bit
14:45:23 <ais523> but I can't hide the change-revert pairs reverted by other people
14:45:29 <ais523> not easily, anyway
14:47:40 <oerjan> missed Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory
14:47:51 <ais523> ok, what needs doing there?
14:48:05 <ehird> the easiest way to spam
14:48:08 <oerjan> rollback the last spam
14:48:11 <ehird> is to just write the spam like regular mail
14:48:12 <ehird> :|
14:48:18 <ais523> got it
14:48:26 <ehird> the spammers have not yet figured that one out yet
14:48:34 <ais523> and blocked
14:48:59 <oerjan> also, Talk:Multiprogramming
14:49:04 <Asztal> ehird: well, for me, they're trying to send me spam about revising clauses in contracts, that sort of thing
14:49:12 <Asztal> which might look like real mail to some people
14:49:23 <ehird> Asztal: Er, I think you subscribed to agora-business by mistake.
14:49:41 <ais523> got that one too
14:49:41 <Asztal> "the revised clauses are in this zip file, just open the .exe!"
14:50:12 <oerjan> Esolang:Wiki preservationhttp:/www.reactos.org/wiki/index.php/De/Häufig gestellte Fragen für Entwickler
14:50:24 <ais523> that's a different sort of spam, isn't it?
14:50:37 <oerjan> not really
14:50:46 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Wiki_preservation <--- giving myself a link
14:50:47 <oerjan> well maybe a little
14:51:01 <ais523> ah, I was erring on the side of not hitting anything legit
14:51:27 <oerjan> ais523: um that _was_ the link
14:51:27 <ais523> but I don't see anything amiss there, you reverted them and I blocked the,
14:51:29 <ais523> *them
14:51:31 <ais523> or am I missing something?
14:51:46 <ais523> oerjan: I wanted to go to the page, so I typed the URL in here
14:51:47 <oerjan> ais523: what i pasted was _just_ the link
14:51:49 <ais523> so I could click on it
14:51:56 <ais523> oerjan: I mean a link to the page
14:52:01 <ais523> or was it a different page?
14:52:03 <oerjan> yes
14:52:06 <oerjan> Esolang:Wiki preservationhttp:/www.reactos.org/wiki/index.php/De/Häufig gestellte Fragen für Entwickler
14:52:10 <oerjan> all of it
14:52:21 <ais523> oh
14:53:28 <oerjan> those last two were new creations
14:54:02 <ais523> and I blocked the bot already
14:54:04 <oerjan> assuming i didn't miss anything during my last revert spurt, that should be all
14:54:17 <ais523> so page deleted now
14:54:18 <oerjan> (i got some smjg missed)
14:54:30 <ais523> let's hope they're out of IPs or zombies or proxies or whatever they're using
14:55:37 <oerjan> nah it's probably a million host sized botnet ;(
14:55:55 <ais523> I can't blacklist edit summaries, you need graue to do that
14:56:45 <oerjan> see also smjg's message in Esolang talk:Community Portal
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18:55:23 <AnMaster> ais523, hi
18:55:29 <AnMaster> ais523, see /msg
18:55:39 <AnMaster> away log of it that is
18:55:47 <ehird> what did I say about pinging people in-channel about /msg :|
18:55:52 <ais523> I already did, but I've forgotten already
18:56:25 <AnMaster> ehird, wrong, it was about him not reading away log, since it affect IFFI build
18:56:36 <ais523> hmm... in theory, a change to make the build system more portable shouldn't interfere too much with something that tries to use that build system
18:56:41 <ais523> although it's nice to be updated with changes
18:56:50 <ais523> that might affect the build system I haven't really written yet
18:57:10 <oerjan> AnMaster is clearly an acronym of AMnesiac. Well, almost.
18:57:18 <oerjan> er, anagram
18:57:30 <ais523> y/tr/ic/ and it works
18:57:38 <ais523> y/trM/icm/ if you want the case right
19:00:20 <AnMaster> AMnesiac ?
19:00:25 <AnMaster> wtf would that mean
19:01:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: you just forgot it
19:01:15 <AnMaster> ah something like bad memory I guess
19:01:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, also I hadn't forgot anything
19:01:33 <AnMaster> it was ais523 who did
19:01:57 <ehird> WHOOOOOOOOOOOSH
19:03:44 * ais523 reverts another spambot
19:03:52 <ais523> I'm using admin bot-revert for the ones I see, as well as blocking
19:04:00 <ais523> so the edits I revert get obliterated from Recent Changes
19:04:01 <AnMaster> ais523, you too? Well for me not on wikipedia.
19:04:12 * AnMaster has spent a lot of time today editing on gentoo-wiki
19:04:20 <ais523> with any luck that might make it at least slightly useful in the face of the current massive bot attack...
19:04:31 <ehird> AnMaster: esolangs. actually,.
19:04:36 <AnMaster> ah
19:04:41 <AnMaster> ais523, what about blacklist?
19:04:49 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm only a sysop, not server dev
19:04:59 <AnMaster> iirc mediwiki has something like: MediaWiki:Spam Blacklist
19:05:01 <AnMaster> or such?
19:05:11 <ais523> that's for URLs
19:05:14 <AnMaster> ah
19:05:15 <ais523> the problem is they aren't spamming URLs
19:05:20 <ais523> we have checks for that already
19:05:26 <ais523> they're just spamming random ASCII garbage
19:05:33 <ais523> which isn't even useful to them, AFAICT
19:05:39 <AnMaster> ais523, FIELD_OTHER_* ?
19:05:47 <AnMaster> I saw lots of that on another wiki the last few days
19:05:48 <ais523> yep
19:05:59 <AnMaster> would like to have a blacklist for it
19:06:58 <ehird> ais523: no it is useful
19:06:59 <oerjan> perhaps there's a url but it's put into a completely stupid form field...
19:07:02 <ehird> they check to see if the spamming works
19:07:10 <ehird> and add it to their database
19:07:11 <ehird> and stuff
19:07:16 <oerjan> so never detected
19:07:19 <ehird> (like, come back a day later and check if it's still there)
19:07:29 <ehird> then sell their db of spammable websites
19:07:39 <AnMaster> ehird, ouch
19:07:40 <oerjan> ais523: there _was_ that case where the url got into the article name
19:07:50 <oerjan> for that newly created article
19:07:50 <ais523> yes, but it was just a URL for another wiki...
19:08:01 <oerjan> oh?
19:08:06 <ais523> yep
19:08:16 <AnMaster> ehird, have you seen zuff recently btw?
19:08:25 <ehird> no.
19:08:28 <AnMaster> ah ok
19:08:28 <ehird> he is dead.
19:08:31 <ehird> I killed him with a fork.
19:08:32 <AnMaster> he too?
19:08:33 <oerjan> and they are not the ones spamming us?
19:08:34 <AnMaster> ouch
19:08:43 <ehird> actually, just kidding
19:08:44 <ehird> he's alive.
19:08:49 <AnMaster> ehird, ah good
19:13:55 * oerjan notes ehird hiding a smoking beaker behind his back, with "Mr. Zuff formula" written on it
19:14:10 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff.
19:14:24 <oerjan> ayeeh
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22:08:53 <zuff> arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2008/12/18/littlebigplanet-
22:08:54 <zuff> er
22:08:56 <zuff> http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2008/12/18/littlebigplanet-used-to-create-32-cell-computer-game-of-life
22:09:36 <AnMaster> hi zuff
22:09:38 <AnMaster> :)
22:10:19 <AnMaster> I see there are severe bouncer problems today, I was speaking to ehird on what looked like the same client before
22:10:34 <AnMaster> maybe some buffer overflow or such=
22:10:35 <AnMaster> ?
22:10:46 <zuff> actually, I killed ehird a few hours ago.
22:10:50 <zuff> I'm now using his computer.
22:10:56 <AnMaster> oh right
22:10:58 <AnMaster> zuff, why?
22:11:23 <zuff> I used a fork!
22:11:25 -!- zuff has changed nick to ehird.
22:11:31 <ehird> urrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggg
22:11:31 <AnMaster> oh?
22:11:32 <ehird> braiiiiiiiiiiiiiiins
22:11:35 <ehird> zombieeeeeee
22:11:37 <ehird> BRAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINS
22:11:42 * ehird RIIIIIIIP
22:11:45 <ehird> om nom nom nom nom nom nom
22:11:45 <AnMaster> that is just silly
22:11:46 <ehird> ..
22:11:48 <ehird> BRAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINS
22:11:52 -!- ehird has changed nick to zuff.
22:11:53 * oerjan swats ehird -----###
22:11:54 <zuff> FUCKING FUCK
22:11:56 <zuff> zombie attack
22:11:56 <AnMaster> a zombie *typing* brains on irc
22:11:57 <zuff> HOLY SHIT
22:11:58 <zuff> what have I done
22:12:00 <zuff> aag
22:12:01 <oerjan> darn to late
22:12:02 <zuff> h
22:12:04 * zuff whack
22:12:06 <zuff> poff
22:12:08 <zuff> AOWWWWWWWW!!
22:12:12 <zuff> YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:12:14 <zuff> *bash*
22:12:16 <zuff> plonk
22:12:18 <zuff> a
22:12:20 <zuff> donk
22:12:22 <AnMaster> no no, you don't *type* that
22:12:22 <zuff> **KSSSSSSSSSSSRFFFFFFT*
22:12:24 <zuff> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
22:12:27 * zuff P L O N K
22:12:28 <zuff> bash
22:12:30 <AnMaster> you *say* it
22:12:32 <zuff> YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
22:12:37 * zuff BOOF BASH BOOSH BAM
22:12:39 <AnMaster> zuff, try zsh instead of bash
22:12:44 <zuff> NO NO, MERCY!
22:12:47 <zuff> I BEG FOR MERCY!
22:12:51 <AnMaster> on irc?
22:12:54 <AnMaster> ...
22:12:54 <zuff> DON"T EAT MY BRrY*&YA&*RRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH\
22:12:57 <zuff> uuuuuuuurhhhhhhhhhhhh
22:13:00 <zuff> braiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiins
22:13:03 <zuff> BRAIIIIIIIIIIIIIINS
22:13:06 <zuff> WANT BRAINS NOW
22:13:08 * oerjan swats zuff -----###
22:13:15 <zuff> EAT OERJAN BRAINS
22:13:17 * AnMaster adds a 1 minute ignore
22:13:22 * zuff *SWBAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPT*
22:13:26 <zuff> om nom nom nom nom nom nom
22:13:28 * oerjan hits zuff ====\___/
22:13:29 <zuff> mmmm.
22:13:33 <zuff> BRAIIIIIIIIIINS
22:13:37 <AnMaster> sigh
22:13:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, I assume he didn't stop?
22:13:57 <zuff> AnMaster: so sorry that you're allergic to fun
22:14:15 <oerjan> this requires automated warfare
22:14:18 <AnMaster> zuff, no I'm not, I just agree with oerjan, you did too much
22:14:32 <AnMaster> it was fun to begin with :P
22:14:34 <zuff> AnMaster: oerjan was joking around far as I can tell.
22:14:39 <zuff> also, what happened to the one minute ignore.
22:14:39 <oerjan> +ul ((====\___/ )S:^):^
22:14:40 <thutubot> ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ...too much output!
22:14:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, :D
22:15:09 <zuff> +ul ((((====\___/ )S:^):^)S:^):^
22:15:10 <thutubot> ((====\___/ )S:^):^((====\___/ )S:^):^((====\___/ )S:^):^((====\___/ )S:^):^((====\___/ )S:^):^((====\___/ )S:^):^((====\___/ )S:^):^((====\___/ )S:^):^ ...too much output!
22:15:23 <zuff> +ul ((((====\___/ )S:^):^)^:^):^
22:15:23 <thutubot> ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ====\___/ ...too much output!
22:15:24 <oerjan> fortunately zombies cannot program
22:15:28 <oerjan> oops
22:15:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, :D
22:15:33 <AnMaster> heh
22:15:33 <zuff> oerjan: shut up; I ate your brain
22:15:49 <oerjan> also, zombies are lousy at anatomy
22:16:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah so that is why you are missing one toe?
22:16:07 <AnMaster> I see
22:16:10 <oerjan> might be
22:16:23 <oerjan> oh no, my toesies
22:16:29 <AnMaster> hah
22:16:41 <oerjan> it's the bathtub monster from Rose is Rose
22:17:43 <AnMaster> btw
22:18:16 <AnMaster> anyone know a good music player for linux that supports cddb and isn't xine? Not Gnome
22:18:28 <AnMaster> KDE is ok, so is more lightweight stuff
22:18:51 <AnMaster> also: supports editing cddb info
22:19:01 <AnMaster> since these cds I'm listening to atm are not in cddb
22:19:19 <zuff> AnMaster: cddb is awful
22:19:22 <AnMaster> xine supports fetching cddb info but not adding and uploading
22:19:22 <zuff> use musicbrainz.org
22:19:29 <zuff> the tags are of impeccable quality.
22:19:47 -!- Asztal has joined.
22:20:08 <zuff> also, don't you mean freedb?
22:20:14 <zuff> cddb is propietrary and closed.
22:20:22 <zuff> [is now, at least]
22:20:30 <AnMaster> zuff, well, whatever, I want to see the titles on this "Kända klassiska musikstycken - Skymningsljus" ~ "Famous classical music - Music for Dusk"
22:20:38 <AnMaster> well non-perfect translation
22:20:40 <zuff> look it up on MB
22:20:53 <AnMaster> zuff, what id or checksum is used for that?
22:20:57 <AnMaster> zuff, and yes I meant freedb
22:21:22 <zuff> I don't recall; download their picard tagger and take a look?
22:21:25 <zuff> iirc it's foss
22:21:31 <zuff> http://musicbrainz.org/doc/PicardDownload
22:22:12 <AnMaster> very interesting, cd-info reports info from freedb for it
22:22:15 <AnMaster> but xine doesn't
22:22:23 <AnMaster> usually xine reports it just fine
22:22:30 <zuff> I'd recommend mpd; but you'd have to rip to flac or sth.
22:22:44 <zuff> If I was a troll--which I am--I would recommend iTunes.
22:22:59 <AnMaster> zuff, I want to play from the cd
22:23:06 <zuff> iTunes can play from the CD :-P
22:23:10 <AnMaster> I have no intention to transfer it to the computer
22:23:16 <AnMaster> ah amarok, looks interesting
22:23:19 <AnMaster> may be worth trying
22:23:22 <zuff> Amarok is nice.
22:23:26 <AnMaster> on another thing, it should have a NORMAL GUI
22:23:28 <zuff> A bit bloated though.
22:23:31 <AnMaster> it shouldn't look like themed
22:23:38 <AnMaster> it should just look like any GUI app
22:23:48 <zuff> you know, i'm not very inclined to help when you state your demands like that
22:23:49 <AnMaster> xine tries to look like a music player of some sort
22:23:51 <AnMaster> and fails
22:24:00 <AnMaster> it uses a custom font
22:24:03 <AnMaster> to look digital
22:24:06 <zuff> Yes, I know.
22:24:08 <AnMaster> fails on åäö
22:24:14 <AnMaster> just totally fails on it
22:24:17 <zuff> Yes, yes.
22:24:25 <AnMaster> but I will try amarok
22:24:29 <AnMaster> err spelling
22:24:39 <AnMaster> ah yes correct spelling
22:24:40 <zuff> AnMaster: Why not use one of the command-line cd players?
22:24:59 <AnMaster> zuff, mplayer? hm may be worth trying
22:25:09 <AnMaster> it works but I would like to see the titles
22:25:09 <MizardX> +ul ((:^~:*a~a*~!:^^^)((.)S)):^^^
22:25:16 <AnMaster> brb
22:25:28 <zuff> AnMaster: Eh; I'd hack up a script that uses MusicBrainz and mplayer or something.
22:25:31 <thutubot> ......... ...too much memory used!
22:25:32 <fizzie> VLC does CDDB and has a "normal" GUI.
22:25:34 <zuff> Why don't you want to rip the cd?
22:25:46 <zuff> (Actually, I lie; I'd use iTunes.)
22:26:07 <fizzie> (Well, according to the feature list it does CDDB, anyway; haven't tried it.)
22:30:18 <oerjan> +ul ((:^~:a*~a*~!:^^^)((.)S)):^^^
22:30:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm thanks
22:30:44 <thutubot> . ...too much memory used!
22:30:53 <AnMaster> zuff, as for not ripping them, there are 20 of them, and I agree with thutubot
22:30:57 <AnMaster> when it comes to disk space
22:31:07 <AnMaster> 5 GB free
22:31:11 <AnMaster> damn svn checkouts :P
22:31:20 <zuff> AnMaster: an album ripped losslessly is about 300mb or so.
22:31:32 <zuff> so, 6gb
22:31:35 * zuff shrugs
22:31:40 <zuff> Thank the lord for large harddrives.
22:31:48 <zuff> +ul (::S^)::S^
22:31:49 <thutubot> ::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^::S^ ...too much output!
22:33:23 <zuff> +ul (:::SaS^):::SaS^
22:33:24 <thutubot> :::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^):::SaS^(:::SaS^) ...too much output!
22:33:31 <zuff> +ul (:::aSS^):::aSS^
22:33:32 <thutubot> (:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^(:::aSS^):::aSS^ ...too much output!
22:33:39 <zuff> Infinite quine!
22:33:49 <zuff> Hmm.
22:33:59 <zuff> fizzie: hey, that's a program that writes out an infinite-length quine
22:33:59 <zuff> :D
22:36:37 <AnMaster> wow vlc have lots of useflags
22:36:49 <AnMaster> must be a great software then ~~~
22:37:02 <AnMaster> (oh yes, php has even more, and we all know it is great right?)
22:37:12 <AnMaster> oh btw:
22:37:13 <AnMaster> [ebuild N ] media-video/vlc-0.9.8a USE="X alsa cddb dbus dvd fbcon ffmpeg flac fontconfig gnutls libgcrypt libnotify mmx mp3 mpeg musepack ncurses nsplugin ogg opengl png qt4 rtsp sdl sse stream svg theora truetype vorbis xv -a52 -aac -aalib (-altivec) -arts -atmo -avahi -bidi -cdda -cdio -dc1394 -debug -dirac -directfb -dts -dvb -esd -fluidsynth -ggi -gnome -hal -httpd -id3tag -jack -kate -libas
22:37:13 <AnMaster> s -libcaca -libsysfs -libv4l2 -lirc -live -lua -matroska -modplug -optimisememory -oss -pulseaudio -pvr -remoteosd -run-as-root -samba -schroedinger -sdl-image -seamonkey -shout -skins -speex (-svga) -taglib -twolame -upnp -v4l -v4l2 -vcd -vcdinfo -vcdx -vlm (-win32codecs) -x264 -xinerama -xml -xosd -zvbi" 16,640 kB
22:37:22 <zuff> thank you. we all needed to see that.
22:38:03 <AnMaster> zuff, really? Wow
22:38:07 <oklofok> infinite quines are trivial
22:38:32 <oklofok> that's something one discovers the first time attempting to make a quine
22:38:34 <oklofok> at least i did
22:38:48 <zuff> well yeah
22:38:53 <zuff> but it's a trivial infinite-quine-maker
22:39:02 <oklofok> well i didn't read context :)
22:39:11 <oklofok> but ohh.
22:39:22 <oklofok> yeah okay thazz niec
22:39:26 <oklofok> ima go read my book now
22:39:29 <oklofok> so have the fun
22:40:09 <oerjan> hm...
22:40:09 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving...").
22:41:55 <oerjan> +ul ()(~(S)*:Sa~:^):^
22:41:55 <thutubot> S(S)S((S)S)S(((S)S)S)S((((S)S)S)S)S(((((S)S)S)S)S)S((((((S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S((((((((S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((((S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S((((((((((S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S ...too much output!
22:42:09 <oerjan> bah
22:42:19 <oerjan> +ul (())(~(S)*:Sa~:^):^
22:42:20 <thutubot> ()S(()S)S((()S)S)S(((()S)S)S)S((((()S)S)S)S)S(((((()S)S)S)S)S)S((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S((((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S ...too much output!
22:43:34 <oerjan> that's a (trivial infinite quine) maker
22:43:53 <zuff> :D
22:44:06 <AnMaster> night
22:44:14 * AnMaster gets a normal portable cd player
22:44:21 <AnMaster> if I can find it
22:44:25 <AnMaster> I have one somewhere
22:44:33 <AnMaster> no not mp3, I mean portable cd player, old thing
22:44:45 <zuff> [sum] [length] di /
22:44:47 <zuff> factor is nice
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22:51:38 * zuff commits piracy
22:51:49 <zuff> **intellectual property infringement
22:51:54 <zuff> an easy typo
22:53:11 * oerjan commits murder
22:53:15 <oerjan> **loud snickering
22:53:19 <oerjan> another one
22:53:49 * zuff rapes a thousand kittens
22:53:51 <zuff> **babies
22:53:57 <zuff> slip of the fingers
22:54:15 * oerjan is thrilled with joy
22:54:17 <oerjan> **horror
22:56:15 <zuff> hmm, I wonder if this OS X 10.5 image will fit on the dvd-rs i have.
22:56:39 <oerjan> **child porn
22:56:43 <oerjan> (just helping)
22:56:53 <zuff> **dying
22:57:14 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:58:03 <oerjan> the trouble with escalation is that it escalates
22:59:06 <zuff> **eats your firstborn
22:59:48 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:01:14 <zuff> woop woop, I shall have my illegal OS copy in around 20 hours.
23:01:31 <zuff> well, i'll put it off overnight
23:01:37 <zuff> so it'll be a bit longer
23:01:44 <zuff> ooh, now it's 7 hours left. that's nice
23:04:11 <zuff> 3 hours.
23:04:38 <oerjan> this time dilation stuff always freaks me out
23:05:19 <zuff> :D
23:07:08 <zuff> 2 hours.
23:10:00 <Sgeo> zuff, why would you talk about getting an illegal copy of an OS publicly?
23:10:10 <zuff> Sgeo: Why not?
23:10:50 <zuff> Morally, I don't give the concept of IP much weight, and Apple aren't exactly poor atm. Realistically, it's not as if they employ people to trawl through IRC logs looking for pirates to prosecute.
23:10:57 <zuff> Justification-ly, I'm bored.
23:14:06 <Sgeo> Are there ways to trash WinXP that don't work in Win98?
23:58:11 <zuff> Ooh, I should markup the USA Constitution in nice HTML and mess with its typography. But i'm not a US citizen. :P
2008-12-19
00:00:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("Maybe the Magna Carta will do?").
00:08:21 <Ilari> Sgeo: Run some .EXEs sent in mail or that some websites want to push to you... Many of them likely don't work in Win98, but they trash WinXP real good... :->
00:16:28 <Ilari> Sgeo: Run enough of them and the CPU/Memory load will bring system operation to standstill.
00:16:49 <Sgeo> Don't want standstill. Want strange effects I can take pictures of
00:20:17 <Ilari> There aren't much interesting effects beside bluescreens... Win98 (at least it is in Win95, because I have seen it with that) would have had interesting one that isn't in WinXP.
00:21:48 <zuff> idea: a vm which has its email posted everywhere. whenever it gets a program in the email, it runs it
00:21:50 <zuff> :D
00:23:39 <Sgeo> http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/3161/pid0killstartmenuse0.png
00:23:56 <Sgeo> Note the lack of a Shut Down button
00:24:31 <zuff> Sgeo: run tons of viruses on it
00:46:01 <Asztal> no shutdown button is because you killed lsass.exe, I think
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00:49:30 <Ilari> And canceled the auto-shutdown (IIRC, lsass.exe dying triggers it)? :-)
00:49:33 <Asztal> although to my memory that usually causes a timed shutdown in 30 seconds
00:49:41 <Sgeo> Ilari, yes, killing lsass triggered autoshutdown
00:49:44 <Sgeo> Which I disabled
00:50:17 <Asztal> can you actually do *anything* that requires authentication now?
00:50:48 <Sgeo> Well, right now I'm trying another destroyery thing
00:51:28 <Ilari> Sgeo: AFAIK, the auto-shutdown can also be canceled.
00:51:36 <Sgeo> Ilari, yes, I know, with shutdown 0a
00:51:38 <Sgeo> erm
00:51:40 <Sgeo> shutdown -a
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02:21:03 <Ilari> http://xkcd.com/350/
02:59:27 <MizardX> Hmm... A virus that gradually converts Windows XP/Vista binaries into some Linux distribution... Programs stop functioning one after one, and after a reboot you suddenly see a Linux login-prompt instead of a Windows-one.
03:01:44 <GregorR> OK, I'm am SO FEKKING CLEVER
03:01:56 <GregorR> I suggested that a friend of mine sign his emails with this "name": x ∈ S s.t. ∀y∈S x ≥ y
03:02:02 <GregorR> Can anybody identify his real name? :)
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03:02:28 <MizardX> max?
03:02:34 <GregorR> Yup!
03:17:09 <Slereah_> Well, last day to finish that fucking assignment.
03:17:25 <Slereah_> If Mathematica can't get it right, I'll have to do it by hand.
03:17:40 <GregorR> Man, you have a fucking assignment? What school do /you/ go to?
03:18:33 <Slereah_> Well, it counts for my exams
03:18:34 <pikhq> Assignment? Jeeze.
03:18:40 * pikhq got done with finals today.
03:19:00 <pikhq> I've perhaps not been all that smart about finals week; I've gotten maybe 6 hours of sleep this week...
03:19:12 <Slereah_> Heh.
03:20:08 <pikhq> *shrug* Sleep's hard when you're panicking.
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03:20:59 <Slereah_> Well, the convolution of four square signals to compute.
03:21:02 <Slereah_> Let's do it.
03:21:23 <Slereah_> Don't let me down Mathematica!
03:24:23 <Slereah_> Well, no dice.
03:24:33 <Slereah_> 5 hours to finish that shit by hand.
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05:51:51 <evincer> 'lo.
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05:52:54 <daffa> Anyone alive?
05:54:55 <Slereah_> No
05:55:03 <Slereah_> Aaaaaargh*
05:55:05 <Slereah_> I4m dead
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05:57:52 <daffa> Gee, that sucks.
05:58:16 <daffa> How's the esoteric programming world beyond the grave?
05:58:51 <SpaceMan_> are you alone
05:59:04 <Slereah_> We program in ghostfuck
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06:00:58 <daffa> whitespace + brainfuck = ghostfuck ?
06:01:09 <daffa> Have we an idea on our hands?
06:01:15 <daffa> I think we just might.
06:01:19 * daffa cracks his fingers.
06:01:23 <daffa> Time to get coding.
06:01:41 <Slereah_> Meh.
06:01:51 <Slereah_> It would just be a brainfuck with different symbols
06:02:00 <daffa> Not necessarily.
06:02:23 <daffa> Ah, whatever.
06:02:29 <daffa> bf variants have been done to death.
06:02:31 <daffa> ...
06:02:34 <daffa> If you'll pardon the pun.
06:03:42 <Slereah_> Heh.
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06:56:34 <psygnisfive> heys
07:02:06 <Slereah_> hey
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07:14:10 <daffa> Hate to miss out on the lively conversation, but it's time for me to catch some winks.
07:14:19 <daffa> Later all.
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07:29:41 <psygnisfive> so
07:30:03 <psygnisfive> i have the desire to experiment with self assembling structures
07:41:25 -!- moozilla has joined.
07:41:45 <psygnisfive> in a sort of self-assembling-that-computers sort of way
07:42:41 <psygnisfive> that-computes**
07:44:20 <Slereah_> Compute her?
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07:44:23 <Slereah_> I hardly know her!
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08:15:43 <psygnisfive> well hopefully hardly. it'd be pretty boring if it were soft!
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11:18:56 * AnMaster ponders OpenMP
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15:37:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant: btw funge 108 was actually a code name for funge 109
15:37:16 <AnMaster> or something
15:37:18 <AnMaster> just FYI
15:37:22 <Deewiant> suuuure
15:37:27 <Deewiant> ;-)
15:37:49 <AnMaster> since I had so much to do this fall and winter, will have more free time next year actually
15:38:43 <AnMaster> or lets do like C/C++ standards: Funge-10x
15:38:45 <AnMaster> hm
15:38:50 <AnMaster> that still leaves just one year
15:40:58 <fizzie> Funge-1xx.
15:41:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, now that is too imprecise
15:41:14 <fizzie> Then you can wait a hundred years before releasing the next revision.
15:41:28 <fizzie> Funge-1[0-2]\d, maybe.
15:41:59 <AnMaster> Funge-1[01][:digit:]
15:42:02 <AnMaster> rather
15:42:17 <fizzie> Funge-[:digit:]+ -- the eternal specification.
15:42:24 <fizzie> Er, [[:digit:]], I mean.
15:42:33 <AnMaster> hm
15:42:45 <ehird> we need Delicious Funge. oklopol!
15:42:48 <fizzie> The [:foo:] classes work only inside []s, I think.
15:43:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm ok, I hardly ever use them
15:43:09 <AnMaster> Funge-1[01][[:digit:]]
15:43:13 <AnMaster> in that case
15:44:25 <ehird> wonderful; the os x I pirated is a shitty osx86 clusterfuck
15:44:27 <Deewiant> why [:digit:] instead of [0-9]
15:44:29 <ehird> "Thirds_Applications (will be installed in /applications/KOOLSOFTS/) "
15:44:31 <ehird> i cannot wait.
15:45:47 <fizzie> Deewiant: I had prepared a reply saying I'd use (in order of preference) \d and even [0-9] over [[:digit:]], but that in such a silly use as this [[:digit:]] might be appropriate. But I got bored halfway through writing that reply-
15:46:04 <AnMaster> hah
15:46:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, you wrote it however ^
15:46:20 <AnMaster> just when you said you didn't
15:46:31 <fizzie> Yes, when Deewiant went and brough the point up.
15:46:45 <AnMaster> ah
15:47:05 <AnMaster> there is one use for those classes however
15:47:11 <AnMaster> l10n
15:47:20 <AnMaster> and/or i18n
15:47:32 <AnMaster> at least for classes like: [:lower:]
15:47:47 <AnMaster> where åäö also belongs in Swedish for example, but not in English
15:47:51 <ehird> yay, 4 days 3 hours remaining.
15:47:53 <ehird> how nice.
15:48:02 <AnMaster> ehird, count down to xmas?
15:48:12 <ehird> No, count down to this download supposedly finishing. :-P
15:48:17 <AnMaster> ah
15:48:27 <AnMaster> yeah it is like 5 days left I think
15:48:35 <ehird> 6.
15:48:42 <AnMaster> depends
15:48:53 <AnMaster> in Sweden it is on the 24th
15:48:55 <AnMaster> :P
15:49:18 <AnMaster> but yes 6 in UK
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15:49:52 <ehird> goddammit, all I want to do is pirate an operating system. is that too much to ask. (yes)
15:50:33 <AnMaster> ehird, what OS is it?
15:51:18 <ehird> OS X 10.5. 10.6 is barely changed and out next year and I'll be being that legitly, but this machine is hopelessly out of date and I don't feel like giving steve jobs ~£50
15:52:38 * AnMaster refrains from commenting on the price of new versions of certain other OS.
15:53:18 * ehird refrains going into a month-long rant about why I'd rather pay than deal with the various annoyances of linux/bsd.
15:53:55 <ehird> also
15:54:01 <AnMaster> hm how much does OS X cost? cheaper than Windows?
15:54:02 <AnMaster> or not
15:54:04 * ehird intentionally misconstrues as meaning Vista and talks about how vista sucks
15:54:12 * ehird watches you then react in a manner not getting the joke
15:54:18 <ehird> AnMaster: I think so.
15:54:23 <ehird> not certain.
15:54:39 <AnMaster> I do get the joke
15:54:59 <AnMaster> also there are loads of other OS you could misinterpret it as
15:55:02 * ehird makes microsoft think he wants to buy Vista, and chooses one of the 5,000 versions
15:55:15 <AnMaster> Solaris, QNX, CP/M, PC-DOS...
15:55:16 <ehird> "yes, I want to buy Help end AIDS in Africa"
15:55:24 <ehird> "no, I want to buy windows dammit"
15:55:50 <AnMaster> heh, how many versions of windows are there actually?
15:56:02 <AnMaster> iirc there are two OS X versions, normal and server
15:56:18 <fizzie> I think it was 129 EUR in Apple Store, although there's some sort of trick where ADC (Apple Developer Connection) student membership is cheaper than that and still includes an OS X copy.
15:56:21 <AnMaster> windows xp, hm, home, pro, and 2003 server
15:56:31 <AnMaster> oh and different languages
15:57:05 <AnMaster> as for vista, tons
15:57:12 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, just two
15:57:22 <ehird> and the server one appears to be more useful as a computation cluster OS than a server one.
15:57:37 <AnMaster> oh I think windows server exist in more than one version?
15:57:42 <AnMaster> like "domain controller edition"
15:57:44 <ehird> WINDOWS VISTA HOME BASIC WITH SERVICE PACK 1
15:57:52 <AnMaster> or is that part of the basic windows server
15:57:54 <ehird> still doesn't want to tell me how much it costs.
15:58:17 * AnMaster googles
15:58:19 <AnMaster> Shopping results for windows vista price
15:58:19 <AnMaster> Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate w/SP1 - 1 PC$170 to $271 - 231 stores
15:58:19 <AnMaster> Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium - 1 PC$103 to $139 - 38 stores
15:58:19 <AnMaster> Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate - 1 PC$158 to $280 - 93 stores
15:58:30 * ehird looks up Leopard price
15:58:31 <AnMaster> shrug
15:58:37 <fizzie> There are "just" five "common" Vista editions (Home Basic, Home Premium, Business, Enterprise, Ultimate), the rest are things like "with SPx" and other not-so-relevant distinctions.
15:58:49 <AnMaster> Alive Leopard - priceless
15:58:55 <AnMaster> ;)
15:58:57 <ehird> AnMaster: leopard is $129
15:59:02 <fizzie> And specialities like "Windows Vista Starter" which has that "can only run three applications simultaneously" restriction.
15:59:08 <AnMaster> Mac OS X Leopard - 1 user$110 to $150 - 11 stores
15:59:09 <AnMaster> Mac OS X Leopard$14.26 - 30 stores
15:59:09 <AnMaster> wtf?
15:59:16 <ehird> AnMaster: lol wat
15:59:24 <AnMaster> ehird, google said it
15:59:28 <AnMaster> Shopping results for leopard price
15:59:28 <AnMaster> Mac OS X Leopard - 1 user$110 to $150 - 11 stores
15:59:28 <AnMaster> Mac OS X Leopard$14.26 - 30 stores
15:59:29 <ehird> anyway, so, leopard = midrange cost of Home Premium
15:59:37 <ehird> AnMaster: probably some program or sth
15:59:42 <ehird> google isn't perfect
15:59:47 <fizzie> The 14.26 price is for the media.
15:59:50 <AnMaster> ehird, and a much more competent OS than windows *
16:00:10 <AnMaster> I would much rather use OS X than Windows, though I prefer Linux even more
16:00:14 <fizzie> It says "Media, Multi-Country, DVD-ROM, pricing: Volume" for that, "complete package" for something you'd actually buy.
16:00:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh
16:01:46 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Windows_Longhorn_logo.svg Also known as "Windows Phallus"
16:01:50 <fizzie> There were four versions of Windows 2000, of which three were "Server" versions (Professional, Server, Advanced Server, Datacenter Server) but I think it got more complicated after that.
16:02:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Of course, every OS is free if you obtain it via the interwebs. :P
16:03:25 <fizzie> According to infallible Wikipedia, for Windows Server 2008 the editions are: Standard, Enterprise, Datacenter, HPC Server, Web Server, Storage Server, Small Business Server, Essential Business Server.
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16:04:09 <ehird> I wonder when Microsoft will die.
16:05:06 <ehird> http://www.biscade.com/office/ Hahaha wow.
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16:09:18 <AnMaster> ehird, heh
16:09:36 <ehird> 2 days remaining. sigh
16:17:07 <ehird> http://msexchangeteam.com/
16:17:10 <ehird> M Sex Change Team
16:17:37 <Slereah> Reminds me of that kid store
16:17:44 <Slereah> KIDSEXCHANGE
16:17:51 <ehird> heh
16:18:13 <AnMaster> hos stupid, they should use a space or a -
16:18:31 <Slereah> Or the mole station nursery.
16:18:41 <ehird> AnMaster: or not care, because only immature idiots like me notice
16:18:47 <ehird> also, you can't use a space in a domain name.
16:18:49 <Slereah> Their web adress is misleading
16:18:59 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed, unless you had written it out I wouldn't have seen it
16:19:01 <AnMaster> and indeed
16:19:04 <Slereah> Or Ferreth and jobs
16:19:05 <AnMaster> but - is possible
16:19:14 <ehird> yeah they should disambiguiate
16:19:17 <ehird> m-sex-change-team.com
16:19:23 <Slereah> OR SPEED OF ART
16:19:33 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed
16:19:43 <ehird> AnMaster: i hope you got that
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16:20:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I saw it after you pasted it first time "<ehird> M Sex Change Team"
16:20:15 <ehird> yes, but the clarified domain was a joke.
16:20:25 <AnMaster> indeed
16:20:34 <AnMaster> not very funny though
16:20:52 <AnMaster> also: the dirt is in the eye of the beholder
16:20:53 <AnMaster> ;P
16:20:59 <Slereah> Hm.
16:21:04 <Slereah> Delicious dirt in my eyes.
16:21:21 <AnMaster> famous English idiom
16:21:22 <Slereah> I wonder if I can tattoo porn directly into my eye
16:21:33 <AnMaster> Slereah, probably not
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16:28:27 <ehird> Bah; this download is fruitless.
16:29:38 <Slereah> Is it a download of carrots?
16:29:48 <ehird> no/
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16:31:28 * ehird tries another.
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16:36:22 <oklopol> ooooooooooooo
16:37:14 <oklopol> "no/" looks like one hardcore partydude
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16:41:09 <fizzie> I have a vague notion that Experts Exchange also used to have expertsexchange.com before the current experts-exchange.com.
16:41:58 <ehird> yes
16:43:35 <fizzie> And the "who represents?" site seems to still be at whorepresents.com.
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16:51:08 <ehird> http://sungazing.com/
16:51:31 <oklopol> ugh... thats nasty
16:51:39 <ehird> wat
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16:57:41 <oklopol> ehird: you know what i mean.
16:57:48 <oklopol> anyway that's pretty cool, i'm so game too
16:59:35 <fizzie> Strange sort of disclaimer. "Do A. Disclaimer: never do A."
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17:03:44 <oklopol> hi oerjan
17:04:15 <oerjan> hello oklorific one
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17:20:44 <ehird> hjghjg
17:21:10 <oerjan> oh no, the random word spammers have successfully cracked ehird
17:21:37 <ehird> stupid slow torrent
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17:33:32 * ehird considers installing shitty pirated one.
17:36:14 <oerjan> http://www.mezzacotta.net/owls/
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18:27:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh btw, last cfunge bzr has DATE now
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18:46:07 <ehird> lurvely. the copy wouldn't eject
18:46:22 <ehird> somebody buy me osx leopard kplz
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20:24:47 <oklopol> oooooooooooooo!
20:25:00 <oklopol> how's it?
20:25:25 <Slereah> What is "it"?
20:26:29 <oklopol> answering with a question is like asking and providing the answer yourself, except completely reversed, but still pretty stupid.
20:27:33 <Slereah> So, you don't know what "it" is?
20:27:44 <oklopol> ...well no
20:27:54 <oklopol> LISTEN I NEED TO GO NOW, SO.
20:27:55 <oklopol> ->
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20:55:57 <GregorR> moozilla: The only web browser for cows.
20:56:25 <oklopol> :DDDDD
20:56:52 <oklopol> YOU SHOULD DO STAND-UP
20:57:00 <lament> get up stand up
20:57:03 <lament> stand up for your right
20:57:16 <oklopol> to moo
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21:46:38 <psygnisfive> oklopol
21:48:53 <oklopol> psygnisfive
21:49:05 <psygnisfive> wanna experiment with self organizing mechanisms? :o
21:49:29 <Slereah> Is it an euphemism?
21:49:33 <psygnisfive> no
21:49:44 <Slereah> Could it be?
21:49:50 <psygnisfive> do you want it to be?
21:49:51 <oklopol> i actually want to start coding my c++ course project, but i may want that too
21:49:55 <Slereah> Yes.
21:49:57 <Slereah> Yes I do
21:50:11 <psygnisfive> ok
21:50:14 <psygnisfive> oklopol
21:50:16 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i'm listening, anyway.
21:50:20 <psygnisfive> wanna have hot sticky gritty mansex?
21:50:30 <psygnisfive> and by that i mean experiment with self organizing mechanisms
21:50:31 <Slereah> Why the grit?
21:50:41 <lament> what grit?
21:50:44 <psygnisfive> because grittiness is manly
21:50:51 <lament> not if it's like 1200 grit
21:50:59 <Slereah> But you like sissy boys, you faggot.
21:51:01 <lament> 100 grit is manly
21:51:39 <psygnisfive> i dont like sissy boys
21:51:40 <oklopol> psygnisfive: interesting question
21:51:56 <psygnisfive> if i did, i'd like you, slereah!
21:52:03 <Slereah> I have a beard.
21:52:15 <Slereah> Also you sure have a lot of sissy boys on your website!
21:52:24 <oklopol> i have a small kid's beard.
21:52:29 <psygnisfive> you mean on /mg/?
21:52:42 <psygnisfive> or in my WNW links?
21:53:05 <oklopol> psygnisfive: whenever you're ready to elaborate...
21:53:10 <lament> gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
21:53:14 <Slereah> WNW?
21:53:49 <psygnisfive> wellnowwhat.net
21:54:00 <psygnisfive> oklopol: well, first you insert your penis into my mouth and-..
21:54:11 <Slereah> On wnw
21:54:24 <Slereah> prettyboy.jpg :o
21:54:41 <psygnisfive> i was thinking we could look initially at getting some self assembling simulated objects. figure out some principles of how to get that to work
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21:54:55 <psygnisfive> prettyboy.jpg is natalie/kitten
21:55:16 <psygnisfive> im not so much attracted to him as to his cock. hes too feminine like that.
21:55:24 <psygnisfive> but natalie's cock is adooorable
21:55:30 <Slereah> Yyyyyyyyes.
21:55:35 <Slereah> Why not.
21:56:36 <psygnisfive> why am i not attracted to him?
21:56:54 <Slereah> It's not a question.
21:57:11 <psygnisfive> what's it a response to??
21:58:04 <Slereah> "I am not gay for his sissy faggotry but I fap to his cock"
21:58:27 <psygnisfive> well it IS a nice cock
21:58:28 <oklopol> psygnisfive: in response to the thing sandwiched between all the penises and cocks, i'm all for getting objects and figuring principles
21:58:28 <psygnisfive> lets be honest
21:58:30 <psygnisfive> and a nice body
21:58:33 -!- ehird has set topic: In which psygnisfive and Slereah discuss being gay..
21:58:46 <Slereah> Hey >:|
21:58:49 <oklopol> i'm just not sure what you mean by self-assembling objects, what context?
21:58:50 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: In which cocks..
21:58:51 <Slereah> You forgot the link to the logs
21:59:03 -!- ehird has set topic: In which psygnisfive and Slereah discuss being gay. http://tunes.org/~nef/cocks/esoteric/.
21:59:40 <psygnisfive> oklopol: more abstract, actually. im more interested in general principles of how to get parts to self organize into a particular kind of structure based on the nature of the parts themselves
22:01:11 <oklopol> psygnisfive: would this all be in somekinda physics simulation, or what exactly?
22:01:22 <oklopol> i'm still not entirely sure what kind of objects we're talking about.
22:01:40 <lament> cocks, obviously?
22:01:47 <psygnisfive> dunno. it could whatever. like i said, im more interested in the abstract principles, so we can design it however we want.
22:02:03 <psygnisfive> also, btw, can 1-dimensional CAs be TC?
22:02:12 <ehird> uh, yes.
22:02:14 <ehird> r30.
22:02:14 <Slereah> Yes.
22:02:19 <Slereah> RULE 110 BITCH
22:02:19 <ehird> or 101
22:02:20 <ehird> w/e
22:02:22 <ehird> err
22:02:23 <ehird> 110
22:02:25 <psygnisfive> ok.
22:02:27 <psygnisfive> 110 is TC?
22:02:30 <Slereah> Yes.
22:02:39 <Slereah> Also color inversions
22:02:42 <psygnisfive> huh.. i didnt know that :D
22:03:05 <oklopol> how can you not know that
22:03:15 <psygnisfive> never bothered to consider it
22:03:25 <psygnisfive> now what about 0 dimnsional automata :O
22:03:28 <oklopol> and 30 hasn't been proved tc no matter how many times ehird suggests it
22:03:39 <oklopol> psygnisfive: depends on what you mean by that
22:03:50 <oklopol> given an infinite set of values for a cell, trivially.
22:03:51 <Slereah> A 0 dimensional automata either blinks or stay static
22:03:51 <psygnisfive> single celled
22:04:01 <psygnisfive> oklopol: yes, obviously infinite valued
22:04:31 <oklopol> psygnisfive: you can encode an infinite amount of finites in a finite amount of infinites
22:05:59 <psygnisfive> but would you be able to make it TC? you might need an infinite number of control states, and TMs are FSAs with a tape
22:06:25 <Slereah> Define "cellular automaton" for 0D, too
22:06:25 <psygnisfive> could you make the single-celled CA have a FSA controller? i wonder
22:06:30 <Slereah> What kind of rules can it have?
22:06:36 <oklopol> you'll need an infinite amount of rules to effectively have infinite values for a cell
22:06:44 <psygnisfive> would you tho
22:06:55 <oklopol> and with infinite code, ifs are enough to do anything.
22:07:00 <psygnisfive> you can simply have rules that multiple and divide and add and subtract and still get infinite values
22:07:12 <oklopol> without infinite code, you essentially have a finite amount of cell values
22:07:13 <psygnisfive> but thats sort of assuming extra computational mechanisms
22:11:26 <psygnisfive> rule 110 is neat
22:11:34 <psygnisfive> it has what look like elementary particles :O
22:12:00 <Slereah> Indeed it does
22:12:11 <Slereah> But really, I am gay for the game of life
22:12:31 <oklopol> Slereah: so, thinking of specializing in ca physics?
22:12:52 <psygnisfive> wolfram, i think, believes the universe is a CA
22:13:32 <Slereah> oklopol : Nah.
22:13:46 <Slereah> I'm also gay for gays, but I'm not into men physics
22:13:51 <oklopol> psygnisfive: yes, he suggests it's based on graph rewriting
22:14:00 <psygnisfive> the universe? graph rewriting? hmm
22:14:15 <psygnisfive> any examples of this online? my copy of nks is in florida
22:14:38 <oklopol> particles are gliders in the massive graph, long-distance forces are connections too narrow for the gliders to pass through, he has a lot of fun ideas abou it
22:14:40 <oklopol> *about
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22:15:28 <Slereah> Maybe I should give it a thought
22:15:36 <Slereah> Although I'm not sure I can get a class on that
22:17:05 <oklopol> also he says it's probably expressable in five lines of mathematica code
22:17:20 <Slereah> Well, it might be.
22:17:30 <Slereah> Physics can be really broken down a lot.
22:17:52 <Slereah> Example : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers/LUR.jpg
22:17:54 <Slereah> SCIENCE!
22:17:54 <lament> rule 110 generator:
22:17:55 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Weltereproduktionsklavier.jpg
22:18:08 <psygnisfive> if you're a unificationist, the universe should be expressible in a single one inch long equation!
22:18:28 <Slereah> Well, even if you're not, I think.
22:18:41 <Slereah> Here's a trick : If you have equation A and equation B.
22:18:43 <lament> cock = -vagina
22:18:48 <Slereah> The axiom should be A /\ B
22:18:49 <Slereah> :D
22:19:51 <psygnisfive> lol
22:20:03 <Slereah> Of course, it might not be as pretty
22:20:03 <psygnisfive> that's not really a mathematical expression tho, thats a logical one. :P
22:20:09 <Slereah> Same thing
22:20:17 <Slereah> You can express it mathematically
22:20:21 <Slereah> Godel and all that
22:20:21 <psygnisfive> eh not really. domain/range differences
22:20:31 <psygnisfive> plus, thats really grungy and inelegant
22:20:42 <Slereah> Well, elegance is another thing.
22:20:50 <Slereah> For instance, that formula above!
22:20:52 <psygnisfive> the two should emerge from a single equation not just an oring of the two
22:21:04 <Slereah> It's the Lagrangian density for a particle in a gravitational and EM field.
22:21:12 <Slereah> It's pretty awesome.
22:21:21 <lament> cock = -vagina is pretty elegant
22:21:34 <Slereah> But really, it's all cheating.
22:21:35 <psygnisfive> no lament
22:21:42 <psygnisfive> its more like cock = -clit
22:21:42 <Slereah> When an expression is just one line long
22:21:58 <Slereah> It usually means that the underlying formula is complicated as fuck.
22:22:14 <psygnisfive> it means there are a lot of assumptions about notation.
22:22:29 <Slereah> R is the Ricci scalar, g is the determinant of the metric tensor, D is the covariant derivative, F is the electromagnetic tensor
22:22:32 <Slereah> Yeah
22:22:55 <Slereah> That formula using only regular arithmetic and calculus is actually ugly
22:23:18 <psygnisfive> notation is a lot tho actually
22:23:43 <Slereah> (Also that formula is false : it should be -g, not g)
22:23:46 <psygnisfive> notation is a kind of technology
22:23:52 <Slereah> (Since the metric tensor is always negative)
22:24:05 <psygnisfive> but the equation has sqrt(g)
22:24:13 <Slereah> Yes.
22:24:15 <psygnisfive> if it was sqrt(-g) it'd be i*sqrt(g) making it always complex
22:24:19 <Slereah> ...
22:24:20 <Slereah> No
22:24:22 <psygnisfive> not negative
22:24:23 <Slereah> Because g < 0
22:24:31 <Slereah> So -g > 0
22:24:53 <psygnisfive> oh yes? i didnt know g < 0. ok then.
22:25:02 <lament> http://www.kenfoster.com/Articles/anaction.gif
22:25:14 <Slereah> Well, in flat space, it's -1,1,1,1 diagonally
22:25:19 <psygnisfive> lament: what?
22:25:27 <Slereah> Signs are always like that generally
22:25:41 <lament> psygnisfive: sex toys.
22:25:49 <psygnisfive> piano key?
22:26:03 <Slereah> A piano is not a sex toys
22:26:12 <psygnisfive> depends on how you use it, surely
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22:37:29 <lament> piano is better than sex.
22:37:41 <Slereah> *mittens
22:37:56 <bsmntbombdood> strings vibrate
22:38:07 <Slereah> http://tanasinn.info/wiki/Mittens
22:38:21 <Slereah> sex with MITTENS is awesome !
22:38:42 <lament> sex with mittens is probably better than playing piano with mittens
22:39:24 <ehird> lol dqn
22:39:47 <Slereah> VIP QUALITY
22:47:30 <Slereah> Tell me ehird by the way
22:47:38 <Slereah> Since you are such a VIP man.
22:47:48 <Slereah> Is table cat English in origin?
22:48:00 <Slereah> The video is, and I can't find any of it on 2chan.
22:48:05 <ehird> Dunno.
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2008-12-20
00:01:35 <ehird> http://mrbmd.com/mrb_personal_blog1.htm "HOW TO SEND EMAIL TO YOURSELF"
00:02:16 <Slereah> STEP 1 : ENTER YOUR EMAIL ADRESS
00:02:22 <Slereah> STEP 2 : WRITE EMAIL
00:02:27 <Slereah> STEP 3 : SEND EMAIL
00:14:35 <Warrigal> ihope@normish.orgHi, me!Okay, now how do I send it?
00:15:18 <Warrigal> Hmm, I should have said something like "warrie@normish.org" instead so that someone else gets all the spam.
00:15:31 <Warrigal> root@normish.org is the best email address, really.
00:16:05 <Slereah> I often send myself emails
00:16:15 <Slereah> It's an easier alternative for file transfer
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00:47:09 <Sgeo> <input type="hidden" name="recipient" value="berman@hygeia.org">
00:50:01 <ehird> Sgeo: el oh EL
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00:58:38 * ehird sketches generic oop
00:58:42 <ehird> err, generic method
00:58:59 <Warrigal> I'm going to use "oop" as a slang term for "method" from now on.
00:59:52 <Warrigal> "That piano player has excellent oop."
01:00:18 <Warrigal> "Then you can just call the object's oop instead of needing to use a macro."
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01:26:06 <AnMaster> Warrigal, so panic() is an oop to generate an oops?
01:26:09 <AnMaster> in the kernel
01:26:22 <AnMaster> night
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02:11:08 <Warrigal> It's an oopsoop.
02:12:27 <oklopol> ;)
02:12:37 <Sgeo> Warrigal, http://yugop.com/ver3/
02:12:44 <oklopol> hy all y sexy ladys
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07:03:56 <psygnisfive> damn snow -.-
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08:22:50 <oerjan> lament: why is a Welte-Reproduktionsklavier not a piano which reproduces universes. i am so disappointed.
08:23:22 <lament> every piano reproduces universes.
08:23:31 <oerjan> they do?
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08:23:45 <lament> of course. Haven't you ever listened to one?
08:24:06 <oerjan> i thought i had. i must do so more carefully.
08:24:19 <lament> yes, listen for the universe
08:25:51 <psygnisfive> oerjan needs to read GEB
08:26:04 <psygnisfive> for some good universe creation in pianos, listen to some fugues and canons
08:26:17 <oerjan> hm
08:26:30 <lament> nah, just listen to any good music
08:27:31 <psygnisfive> which would include at its highest ranks, fugues and canons
08:27:32 <psygnisfive> from bach
08:27:33 <psygnisfive> :)
08:29:18 <lament> biased eh
08:29:37 <lament> i had a phase for a few years when i listened only to bach
08:29:45 <psygnisfive> oh well thats stupid
08:29:59 <lament> actually i mostly played bach instead
08:30:05 <lament> well-tempered clavier
08:30:48 <lament> now i listen to mozart more...
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08:31:22 <psygnisfive> well tempered clavier, yes
08:31:27 <psygnisfive> very GEB
08:32:19 <psygnisfive> i have his cello suites
08:32:20 <psygnisfive> <3
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08:36:12 <CentHOGG> <refractory period
08:36:53 <bsmntbombdood> ??
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08:38:35 <psygnisfive> so im building a database
08:38:42 <psygnisfive> an object-oriented style database, actually
08:38:50 <Mony> hi
08:38:57 <psygnisfive> and the type object for numbers? 42.
08:39:00 <psygnisfive> not even intentional
08:39:21 <psygnisfive> id number is 42, i mean
08:40:25 <CentHOGG> <whas 42
08:40:36 <psygnisfive> im not going to answer that.
08:40:53 <CentHOGG> sorry
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08:52:12 <psygnisfive> more like 'CentHOGG has left IRC ("Don't get H2G2 references.")' -.-
08:52:43 <pikhq> I thought that that was mandatory reading?
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09:08:31 <psygnisfive> you'd think it wouldnt been to be mandatory
09:13:36 <bsmntbombdood> what's h2g2?
09:13:41 <oerjan> i wioll haven thunk so, but not yet
09:14:35 <bsmntbombdood> oh hitchhikers guide to the galaxy
09:14:36 <bsmntbombdood> meh
09:15:32 <oerjan> *think
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10:12:22 <oklopol> why is h2g2 the abbreviation of hgttg?
10:17:27 <oerjan> apparently because neil gaiman can't count
10:18:20 <oerjan> hm wait
10:18:28 <oerjan> maybe he just left out the small words
10:19:00 <oerjan> but then, why two h's...
10:19:51 <oklopol> HitchHikers
10:20:03 <oerjan> I KNOW THAT
10:20:09 <oerjan> it just doesn't make sense
10:20:15 <oklopol> i agree
10:20:28 <oerjan> but then, nothing in the books did, so i guess that's okay
10:20:59 <oklopol> wonder if i should read them
10:21:17 * oerjan actually just read the first two
10:21:28 <oklopol> i've been thinking about reading a fictious book at some point
10:21:48 <oklopol> how many are there
10:21:56 <oerjan> infinitely many
10:22:04 <oklopol> so 4?
10:22:31 <oerjan> i'm sure there are more than 4 fictious books
10:22:38 <oklopol> i mean h2g2's
10:23:08 <oklopol> i know there are over 10 fictious books
10:23:31 <oerjan> it's hard to count them i think
10:23:50 <oklopol> why is it hard
10:23:51 <oerjan> at least 5 were published when DA was alive
10:24:08 <oklopol> how come did it be hard now
10:24:43 <oerjan> then there is a posthumous collection
10:25:11 <oerjan> and they are of course intending to get someone else to write more
10:25:18 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy#And_Another_Thing...
10:30:07 <fizzie> It's been abbreviated hhgttg by the people "around here"; but I guess h2g2 is the most common one.
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10:40:58 <oklopol> posthumorous
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14:05:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there?
14:05:16 <AnMaster> happen to know the url for NCRS?
14:10:26 <AnMaster> I have been unable to locate it
14:11:07 <AnMaster> ah wait, same as JSTR I guess
14:14:07 <AnMaster> ah yes
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15:01:45 <ehird> Hi ais523.
15:03:16 -!- Mony has joined.
15:04:50 <Slereah> Hey.
15:05:08 <oklopol> Hey.
15:05:23 <ais523> <oerjan> +ul (())(~(S)*:Sa~:^):^ <--- I really like that one
15:05:36 <Slereah> +ul (())(~(S)*:Sa~:^):^
15:05:37 <thutubot> ()S(()S)S((()S)S)S(((()S)S)S)S((((()S)S)S)S)S(((((()S)S)S)S)S)S((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S((((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S ...too much output!
15:05:39 <Slereah> :D
15:05:50 <Slereah> +ul ()S(()S)S((()S)S)S(((()S)S)S)S((((()S)S)S)S)S(((((()S)S)S)S)S)S((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S((((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S
15:05:50 <thutubot> ()S(()S)S((()S)S)S(((()S)S)S)S((((()S)S)S)S)S(((((()S)S)S)S)S)S((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S(((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S((((((((()S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S)S
15:05:52 <oklopol> wait what's that
15:05:54 <oklopol> oh
15:05:56 <Slereah> :D
15:05:58 <ehird> oklopol: infinite quine generator
15:06:00 <oklopol> yes
15:06:12 <ehird> +ul ()S(()S)S
15:06:12 <thutubot> ()S
15:06:25 <ehird> wtf@this error
15:06:42 <Slereah> +ul (
15:06:42 <thutubot> ...out of time!
15:06:51 <Slereah> Here thutubot, have this time!
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15:07:10 <ehird> okay who wants to fix my c compiling error
15:07:16 <ais523> it's a quine that contains no loops, the output of that
15:07:22 <ais523> which therefore has to be infinitely long
15:07:31 <Slereah> Heh.
15:07:56 <ais523> also, the out of time error is because Thutu programs have a tendency to go into infinite loops when it they see something they don't understand
15:07:58 <Slereah> PRINT(PRINT(PRINT(
15:08:03 <ais523> in this case, the infiniloop was in the interp, not the program
15:08:45 <ehird> anyone? :p
15:09:03 <Slereah> I hate C, ehird
15:09:10 <Slereah> And I must write it :(
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15:10:44 <ais523> ehird: paste the error, and I'll have a look
15:10:48 <ais523> preferably a few lines of context too
15:11:01 <ehird> /opt/local/include/evhttp.h:106: error: parse error before ‘TAILQ_ENTRY’
15:11:01 <ehird> /opt/local/include/evhttp.h:106: warning: no semicolon at end of struct or union
15:11:03 <ehird> /opt/local/include/evhttp.h:149: error: parse error before ‘}’ token
15:11:09 <ehird> that's all the errors for that file
15:11:15 <ehird> (not my program, ofc :P)
15:11:22 <ehird> but it's stopping a compilation and uh wtf
15:11:46 <ais523> could you show me the context around line 106?
15:12:49 <ehird> yepers:
15:12:59 <ehird> TAILQ_ENTRY(evhttp_request) next;
15:13:06 <ehird> context:
15:13:06 <ehird> struct evhttp_request {
15:13:07 <ehird> TAILQ_ENTRY(evhttp_request) next;
15:13:09 <ehird> /* the connection object that this request belongs to */
15:13:11 <ehird> struct evhttp_connection *evcon;
15:13:14 <ehird> int flags;
15:13:16 <ehird> and no
15:13:17 <ehird> it doesn't define it
15:13:19 <ehird> nor include anything
15:13:21 <ehird> presumably the using program has to import another header first
15:13:33 <ehird> but this program is used by others; presumably they have no problem
15:13:35 <ehird> so, yeah, wtf
15:13:45 <ais523> yes, that seems a pretty clear case of TAILQ_ENTRY not meaning anything in this context
15:14:26 <ehird> well, duh
15:14:31 <ehird> I'm wondering what the hell is up :D
15:15:01 <ais523> actually, looking at the context there, it's attempting to create a struct with a pointer to itself
15:15:24 <ais523> so tailq_entry's probably doing some sort of clever trick to make a linked list or something
15:15:34 <ais523> a bit silly, really, because a pointer would do just as well
15:15:39 <ehird> as far as I can tell, the problem is that TAILQ_ENTRY is not defined.
15:15:54 <ais523> yes, it indeed sounds like it should be in some header file
15:15:59 <ais523> try googling for TAILQ_ENTRY?
15:16:01 <ehird> I did
15:16:06 <ehird> but the thing is
15:16:10 <ais523> did you turn up anything useful?
15:16:13 <ehird> this program isn't uncommon
15:16:19 <ehird> i doubt it forgot to include a header or something
15:16:25 <ehird> because, you know, people use it and compile it fine
15:16:29 <ehird> so why is it happening in my case?
15:16:33 <ehird> also, no
15:16:34 <ais523> it could be designed for a common compiler you don't use, for instance
15:16:34 <Slereah> God hates you
15:16:39 <ais523> I was wondering vaguely if it was a MSVC-ism
15:16:49 <ehird> uhh, no.
15:16:53 <ehird> considering I installed the library with macports.
15:18:24 <ais523> anyway, try #include <sys/queue.h> at the start of the program and see if it helps
15:19:15 <ais523> apparently it's in that header file in Darwin, therefore presumably in Mac OS X too
15:19:45 <ehird> that is something I will avoid. a) this is a checkout from git, so I'd have to deal with merging each time I update it, b) the main developer, iirc, uses OS X, leading on to c) nobody else seems to have this problem
15:19:59 <ehird> so I'm thinking how to solve it d) with some build system flag or something that I may have missed
15:20:13 <ehird> also
15:20:15 <ehird> it includes #include <event.h>
15:20:16 <ehird> before evhttp.h
15:20:34 <ais523> gcc has an "include-this-header" command-line switch, IIRC
15:20:42 <ehird> right, but i shouldn't have to do that :)
15:20:52 <ehird> /* Fix so that ppl dont have to run with <sys/queue.h> */
15:20:53 <ehird> #ifndef TAILQ_ENTRY
15:20:53 <ehird> #define _EVENT_DEFINED_TQENTRY
15:20:56 <ehird> #define TAILQ_ENTRY(type)\
15:20:57 <ehird> struct {\
15:20:59 <ehird> struct type *tqe_next;/* next element */\
15:21:01 <ehird> struct type **tqe_prev;/* address of previous next element */\
15:21:03 <ehird> }
15:21:05 <ehird> #endif /* !TAILQ_ENTRY */
15:21:07 <ehird> -- event.h
15:21:09 <ehird> and yet it includes event.h before evhttp.h
15:21:11 * ehird 's WTF-O-METER goes off
15:21:50 <ehird> wtffffffffffffffffffffffff
15:22:00 <ehird> ais523: and TAILQ_ENTRY works in event.h!
15:22:06 <ais523> yes, my bogometer is ringing high too
15:22:07 <ehird> but when one line later it includes evhttp.h, it fails!
15:22:11 <ehird> what the HECK
15:22:29 * ehird runs thru cpp
15:23:14 <ehird> ok, the TAILQ_ENTRY is just not being expanded
15:23:19 <ehird> what the hhelllllllllllll
15:23:36 <ehird> this makes like the least sense ever
15:24:15 * ais523 wonders if 'type' was #defined earlier, to confuse issues
15:24:18 <ais523> although it shouldn't have been
15:24:28 <ehird> nah
15:24:30 <ehird> #include <event.h>
15:24:33 <ehird> #include <evhttp.h>
15:24:35 <ehird> through cpp
15:24:40 <ehird> the event.h TAILQ_ENTRY uses work fine
15:24:46 <ehird> but then as soon as you get to evhttp.h?
15:24:48 <ehird> it's just left in
15:24:49 <ehird> verbatim
15:24:58 <ehird> that's... just... what
15:25:52 <ehird> i mean...
15:25:55 <ehird> no sense at all
15:26:07 <ehird> that is not how the c preprocessor works so...
15:26:09 <ehird> I just don't get it. WTF?!
15:26:10 <ais523> hmm... do you have precompiled headers on?
15:26:22 <ehird> ais523: i'm not sure how that would change anything but no afaik.
15:26:22 <ais523> I can sort-of figure out how they would cause that bug
15:26:52 <ais523> (basically, earlier header files can't define symbols in later header files that don't include them, if the header files are precompiled)
15:27:01 <ehird> ah.
15:27:07 <ehird> well, how can I turn off precompilation for that?
15:27:15 <ais523> which compiler, gcc?
15:27:33 <ehird> yeah
15:27:47 <ehird> oh my god
15:27:58 <ehird> ais523:
15:28:00 <ehird> you will not believe this
15:28:04 <ehird> % cat /opt/local/include/event.h /opt/local/include/evhttp.h| cpp -I/opt/local/include|e
15:28:06 <ehird> STILL VERBATIM
15:28:13 <ehird> WHAT THE HECK AHAHAAHAHAHAHAH
15:28:20 <ais523> hmm, gcc seems to have protection against that sort of thing, it refuses to use more than one precompiled header in a compilation for exactly that reason
15:28:25 <ehird> i mean, WHAT
15:28:28 <ais523> and if it does use one, it has to be the first one
15:28:28 <ehird> do you hear what I'm saying?
15:28:32 <ehird> I catted the two files together
15:28:34 <ais523> and yes
15:28:36 <ehird> and it's still verbatim
15:28:37 <ehird> in the second
15:28:38 <ehird> one
15:28:40 <ehird> I mean. just
15:28:42 <ehird> I mea...
15:28:46 <ehird> whattttttttttt
15:28:50 <ais523> maybe there's a typo in the second which is affecting it somehow
15:29:05 <ehird> TAILQ_ENTRY (event) ev_next;
15:29:05 <ehird> vs
15:29:06 <ehird> TAILQ_ENTRY(evhttp_request) next;
15:29:20 <ehird> and no, there is absolutely no way it's the space :-P
15:29:26 <ais523> agreed
15:29:34 <ais523> no stray backslash at the end of the previous line?
15:29:41 <ais523> no /* comment that was accidentally never closed?
15:29:49 <ehird> no, this is from cpp output
15:29:59 <ais523> and it's stripping comments?
15:30:03 <ehird> yes.
15:30:14 <ais523> are there any #line or # <number> directives nearby?
15:30:27 <ehird> about 50 lines earlier
15:30:28 <ehird> # 401 "<stdin>"
15:30:31 <ais523> they're often a clue as to what cpp was thinking
15:30:34 <ehird> on the line of
15:30:35 <ehird> #endif /* _EVENT_H_ */
15:30:40 <ehird> signifying the next file in the cat, ofc
15:30:58 <ais523> ok, so in other words nothing there's expanded into multiple lines
15:31:10 <ais523> but that's not surprising
15:31:16 <ais523> given there are no include comments there
15:31:29 <ais523> *include directives
15:31:45 <ehird> ok i will try the ultimate test
15:31:46 <ais523> I suppose the macro in question wasn't undefed by a stray undef?
15:31:58 <ehird> if this fails, I will put a gun to my head
15:32:05 <ehird> umm
15:32:07 <ehird> ais523: yes.
15:32:11 <ehird> #ifdef _EVENT_DEFINED_TQENTRY
15:32:11 <ehird> #undef TAILQ_ENTRY
15:32:15 <ehird> in event.h
15:32:18 <ehird> wtf is up with that
15:32:21 <ais523> ok, that's simple enough
15:32:24 <ehird> also, how come evhttp.h (from the SAME PACKAGE) uses it
15:32:28 <ehird> even though it can't
15:32:30 <ehird> and how come this program
15:32:32 <ais523> and an obvious explanation why the define of tailq_entry wasn't carrying over
15:32:32 <ehird> developed on os x
15:32:34 <ehird> doesn't include sys/queue
15:32:36 <ehird> as a workaround
15:32:48 <ehird> and how come it builds for everyone else.
15:36:40 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
15:39:23 <ehird> so.
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15:51:41 <ais523> my package manager wants to uninstall the kernel, I hope it knows what it's doing
15:54:21 <ehird> heh
15:54:25 <ehird> ais523: any ideas as to what I should do?
15:54:40 <ais523> not really
15:54:55 <ais523> maybe see if you can find one of the everyone else for whom it built, and ask them what happened?
15:55:08 <ehird> i'm asking in the irc channel but it's idle-haven
15:56:23 <ais523> OK, rebooting, if I don't come back up within about 10 minutes it's probably because I accidentally deleted my OS
15:56:27 <ehird> :)
16:00:17 <ais523> $ uname -a
16:00:19 <ais523> Linux dell 2.6.27-11-generic #1 SMP Fri Dec 19 16:29:52 UTC 2008 i686 GNU/Linux
16:00:20 <ais523> yay, it worked
16:00:22 <ehird> hi thar.
16:00:43 <ehird> I just added an #include :P
16:01:10 <ehird> [[mmph... 5 to 100 days remaining is not a useful measure for a file download to give...]]
16:01:17 <ais523> ehird: [[is that Vista?]]
16:01:20 * ehird continues his Insane Task (write an httpd)
16:01:27 <ehird> ais523: no, it's a torrent :-P
16:01:56 <ehird> it's possible that the 100 is it predicting me being jailed for copyright infringement and thus my computer confiscated
16:02:11 <ais523> well, if it's an illegal torrent then in theory that ought to happen
16:02:14 <ehird> after all, this is a mac, the software is really clever right?
16:02:20 <ais523> never tell me where you live, just in case...
16:02:30 <ehird> ais523: depends on your definition of "ought" :-P
16:02:38 <ehird> deep, I know
16:02:46 <ais523> I don't like doing illegal things, or other people doing them
16:03:04 <ais523> although I admit that given that this is the Internet, it's pretty much impossible to convince anyone of that
16:03:29 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:03:34 <ehird> in the case of "intellectual property infringement", the laws are broken to the Nth degree
16:03:51 <ais523> there are several laws, some are more broken than others
16:03:59 <ais523> trademark law is almost sane, for instance, just out of date
16:04:59 * ehird , with newly compiled interpreter, sets on quest: Write decent httpd.
16:05:03 <ehird> Then use it for everything.
16:05:15 <ehird> What do you mean that won't be easy.
16:05:19 <ais523> what's your definition of 'decent' here?
16:05:24 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
16:05:29 <ehird> does everything I want it to do
16:05:37 <ehird> fast.
16:05:48 <ehird> and with low memory usage and high scalability
16:05:51 <ehird> I will accept nothing less :-P
16:05:57 <ais523> secure?
16:06:09 <ais523> also, what language?
16:06:15 <ehird> Yes; since I'm writing it in a HLL I doubt I'll be getting buffer overflows.
16:06:23 <ehird> And Io, a minimal prototype-based OO language. http://iolanguage.com.
16:06:31 <ais523> ehird: you never know...
16:06:44 <ehird> It's built with embeddability and concurrency in mind, and even has some syntax for futures and such.
16:06:45 <ais523> and I know of Io and its paradigm, although haven't worked with it in detail
16:06:54 <ehird> And it has async IO functionalities, so it's a good fit.
16:08:04 <ehird> Hopefully it'll also have in-server scripting for blazing fast webapps, but sandboxed appropriately so you can't mess up the server.
16:08:10 <ehird> That would be nice.
16:08:12 -!- moozilla has joined.
16:09:20 <ais523> <OscarMeyr> Does there exist a decent Perl to Brainfuck parser / compiler?
16:09:26 <ehird> yeah, I pasted that in ##nomic
16:09:32 <ehird> that's so lol for about 5 reasons
16:09:37 <ehird> which you all know so I wont' repeat :D
16:09:37 <ais523> maybe I should have pointed out that parsing Perl is uncomputable
16:09:41 <ehird> yes
16:09:51 <ehird> also, that writing brainfuck by hand IS possible
16:09:52 <ehird> and not that hard
16:10:01 <ehird> also, that being in your right mind and writing BF are mutually incompatible, duh
16:10:06 <ehird> also, that Perl would be a terrible language to compile it to anyway
16:10:10 <ehird> and also it'd fail at the cycle limit.
16:10:12 <ehird> also, the grammar.
16:10:20 <ehird> hey i just read it all out
16:10:20 <ehird> woop
16:10:29 <ehird> hmm, Server handleSocket isn't called asynchronously.
16:10:30 <ais523> maybe I should try to get gcc-BF to compile the Perl interpreter at some point
16:10:30 <ehird> that is odd
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16:11:03 <ais523> ehird: maybe it's using Java's model for asynchrony (create a thread and run it synchronously there)
16:11:19 <ehird> no; it's just that you're meant to do the asynchronous call inside handleSocket
16:12:21 <ehird> ok, now to come up with a method name to asynchronously call
16:12:27 <ehird> reallyHandleSocket? :P{
16:12:48 <ehird> handleSocket := method(aSocket, self @reallyHandleSocket(aSocket))
16:12:48 <ehird> yep.
16:14:25 <ehird> ok, my server just doesn't handle more than one connection full stop, wtf
16:15:01 <ehird> incidentally, I think I can protect this server against ddos attacks pretty well
16:15:03 <ehird> especially fuzz ones
16:15:13 <ehird> as soon as you know you've got some invalid http, drop the connection
16:15:27 <ais523> what if someone tries to instantly reconnect?
16:17:58 <ehird> ais523: there's no way to both handle all valid requests and protect against a well-formed, mass DDoS attack of course
16:17:58 <ehird> but some rate limiting shouldn't be too hard
16:18:09 <ehird> e.g. "if user is giving us 100 requests a second, ban" :P
16:18:23 <ais523> well, arguably being linked from Slashdot is a legitimate DDOS attack
16:18:58 <ehird> ais523: there's a difference between "many many users making few requests"
16:19:06 <ehird> and "any number of users making a huge amount of request"
16:19:07 <ehird> s
16:19:13 <ehird> the first should be allowed, the second should be blocked
16:19:42 <ais523> the first is a DDOS, though, by definition
16:19:51 <ais523> the second is just a DOS
16:20:28 <ehird> ais523: actually, no - a DDOS would be "many users making many requests"
16:20:41 <ehird> slashdotting = many users making few requests
16:20:47 <ais523> it depends on how distributed it is, I suppose
16:20:47 <ehird> dos = few users making many requests
16:20:51 <ehird> ddos = many users making many requests
16:20:57 <ehird> ais523: and you can block the latter two with the same logic
16:21:03 <ehird> if you block a dos, you block a ddos
16:21:10 <ehird> as it's just many doses
16:22:03 <oerjan> at best you can turn a DDOS into a Slashdot, then...
16:22:36 <oerjan> since each user gets at least one try before you detect it
16:23:25 <ehird> aha, I needed a new libevent for Socket
16:23:31 <ehird> oerjan: well, yes
16:23:44 <ehird> but a DDOS _that_ distributed is almost impossible to get
16:24:00 <oerjan> unless you have a botnet
16:24:04 <ehird> slashdotting works because slashdot is a highly established site that has got views by linking to interesting content nicely over the years
16:24:12 <ehird> oerjan: yes, again
16:24:15 <ais523> ehird: it crosses my mind that you might be able to manage it by hotlinking an image on your site into the Wikipedia UI
16:24:29 <ehird> but how likely is a botnet attacking one site?
16:24:29 <ais523> if you kept it small and hidden, nobody might notice it for a while
16:24:34 <ehird> unless it's like a virus researcher
16:43:28 <AnMaster> ais523, hi
16:44:04 <ais523> hi
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17:03:32 * ehird tries to think of a name for HTTPHandler that conveys that it handles the low-level HTTP sockets and thus not clash with the high level HTTPHandlers
17:04:36 <ais523> LowLevelHTTPHandler?
17:04:44 <ehird> nse
17:04:47 <ehird> naw
17:04:51 <ehird> it's not analogous to a HTTPHandler
17:05:06 <ehird> it's "the thing that the HTTPServer clones and gives the socket when it gets a connection"
17:05:44 <Asztal> so one's a protocol handler, t'other's a content handler?
17:06:44 <ehird> one is a high-level way to get an HTTPRequest and give an HTTPResponse, essentially
17:06:50 <ehird> the one I'm naming is one that takes a socket and does stuff
17:06:54 <ehird> HTTPProtocolHandler may be ideal
17:07:03 <ehird> hmm, HTTPSocketHandler
17:07:06 <ehird> yes, that's good
17:07:16 <ehird> HTTPSocketHandler clone handleSocket :-P
17:07:41 <ehird> woohoo, now I get to parse HTTP
17:07:44 <ehird> can you think of anything more EXCITING?
17:08:02 <Asztal> parsing HTML?
17:08:22 <Asztal> with all the really really really interesting bits of leftover SGML stuff
17:08:30 <ehird> how about parsing mork
17:08:40 <ehird> http://jwz.livejournal.com/312657.html
17:10:54 * ehird writes HTTPParser, aka KillMeNow
17:16:19 <oerjan> ehird: will you have some anti-DDOS throttling called KillMeLater?
17:16:30 <ehird> haha
17:16:32 <ehird> yes!
17:17:04 <ehird> whenever a client is found to be ddosing, my server will reply to its request with "Fuck you." then ban the ip
17:17:04 <ehird> :D
17:18:15 * ehird invents new software versioning scheme
17:19:16 <ehird> major.minor, minor increments from 0 per release, major is initially 0. major is increased when backwards compatibility-breaking changes are introduced or when the featureset is revamped to a large degree. when this happens, minor resets to 0.
17:19:38 <ehird> well, major backwards compat breaking changes
17:19:45 <ehird> since "featureset is revamped to a large degree" is pretty vague, major releases will be more common
17:19:56 <ehird> i imagine version numbers like 5.14 will be commonplace :P
17:21:24 <oerjan> um wait, this is new how?
17:23:04 <ehird> oerjan: well, its' not exactly _revolutionary_
17:23:16 <ehird> but minor never skips
17:23:24 <ehird> and there's no even/odd stuff
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17:44:53 <ehird> hmm.
17:44:57 <ehird> writing a streaming parser will be har.d
17:45:42 <oerjan> that's a strange name for a streaming parser, even if you use D
17:46:18 <ais523> maybe it's a parser daemon
17:46:21 <ais523> that goes in init.d
17:46:30 <oerjan> maybe
17:47:03 <ehird> lol
17:47:51 <ehird> my life is AWESOME
17:47:54 <ehird> not only do I have to read the http spec
17:48:00 <ehird> but I have to implement it as a manually-coded parser
17:48:03 <ehird> KICKASS
17:48:09 <ais523> "have to", you could do something else instead you know...
17:48:21 <ehird> WHAT
17:49:58 * ehird considers usinga regex
17:50:02 <ehird> except that would be slow.
17:51:32 <ais523> "now you have two problems"...
17:51:41 <ais523> although I like regexen, it's still a good joke
17:51:57 <ehird> hmm, you can't check for EOF on a socket can you?
17:52:00 <ehird> so I guess http servers just rely on a timeout
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18:26:57 <oklopol> ehird: my life is more awesome than yours
18:37:34 <bsmntbombdood> hi oklopol
18:37:52 <oklopol> hi bsmntbombdood
18:37:59 <GregorR> AND THEN THERE WERE MUDKIPS
18:49:23 <bsmntbombdood> sexy mudkips?
18:50:05 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:50:27 <oklopol> very sexy
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19:25:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm:
19:25:16 <AnMaster> pragma (msg, "Assuming 32-bit chtype... correct ccbi.fingerprints.jvh.ncrs.chtype to ushort if link errors ensue.");
19:25:17 <AnMaster> alias uint chtype;
19:25:27 <AnMaster> it seems to be unsigned long on my system?
19:29:36 <bsmntbombdood> xXxAnMasterxXx
19:32:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: chtype a long? That makes no sense at all
19:32:50 <oerjan> +ul ((xX)S:^):^ What's xXx anyway?
19:32:51 <thutubot> xXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxX ...too much output!
19:33:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/dM2ImR49.html
19:33:24 <oklopol> isn't it a movie
19:33:26 <ais523> Deewiant: well, 16 bits isn't enough for all of Unicode
19:33:43 <Deewiant> ais523: and 64 bits is way too much
19:33:45 <AnMaster> #if 0 && is quite confusing
19:34:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, depends, on i686 long is 32 bits
19:34:05 <AnMaster> long long is 64-bit
19:34:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 32 bits is too much as well
19:34:16 <bsmntbombdood> oerjan: straightedge
19:34:18 <AnMaster> and on 64-bits long long is 64-bits
19:34:20 <AnMaster> and so is long
19:34:27 <Deewiant> unicode fits well into 21 bits
19:34:33 <Deewiant> or was it 20, I forget
19:34:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ncursesw would need the full 32 bits, but this is plain ncurses
19:35:05 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster is hXc
19:35:08 <AnMaster> in any case see the paste
19:35:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, on 32-bit platforms that would end up as int32_t
19:35:33 <AnMaster> on x86_64 it would be int64_t
19:35:34 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
19:35:39 <AnMaster> well that is x86 and amd64
19:35:42 <AnMaster> no idea about ppc and such
19:35:45 <Deewiant> at least PDcurses does it right
19:36:13 <Deewiant> http://rafb.net/p/gDsSdU70.html
19:37:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah attr too
19:37:08 <AnMaster> that is quite interesting
19:39:37 <Deewiant> welp, in any case there's no way I can know the correct type without doing something autoconf-like so all I can do is change the pragma msg :-P
19:40:09 <ais523> Deewiant: compare blah_MAX from limits.h?
19:40:15 <ais523> that's a way to find out type sizes in the preprocessor
19:40:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw you have two bugs in your code I think
19:40:40 <AnMaster> 1) you don't check if wgetch returned ERR, the specs say you should reflect on error for all instructions
19:40:44 <Deewiant> ais523: I can't see the original chtype type without going through C and I don't want to do that
19:40:48 <Deewiant> (remember, this is D)
19:40:57 <AnMaster> 2) initscr() exits on error, doesn't return ERR
19:41:00 <AnMaster> use newterm() instead
19:41:08 <AnMaster> in a complex usage pattern
19:41:10 <ais523> Deewiant: ah, ok
19:41:14 <AnMaster> so yes two error handling bugs decipher
19:41:14 <AnMaster> err
19:41:16 <ais523> does D have #define?
19:41:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ^
19:41:28 <ais523> if it does, you could include the C header and hope that it happened to also be legal D
19:41:38 <AnMaster> ais523, nice one
19:41:40 <Deewiant> D does not have #define
19:41:43 <ais523> ah, ok
19:42:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: looking at the PDcurses source they both exit()
19:43:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well that means CCBI is non-conforming I'm afraid :P
19:43:25 <AnMaster> when using pdcurses
19:43:45 <Deewiant> sucks to be on windows
19:43:48 <Deewiant> can't be helped
19:44:09 <AnMaster> A program that needs to inspect capabilities, so it can continue to run in a line-oriented mode if the terminal cannot support a screen-oriented program, would also use newterm.
19:44:14 <AnMaster> is what the man page says here
19:44:25 <Deewiant> In some implementations of curses, newterm() allows the use of
19:44:25 <Deewiant> multiple terminals. Here, it's just an alternative interface for
19:44:25 <Deewiant> initscr(). It always returns SP, or NULL.
19:44:45 <Deewiant> is there a way to 'catch' exit somehow?
19:44:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not afaik
19:45:01 <Deewiant> damn C
19:45:04 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure ncurses exist for cygwin
19:45:08 <Deewiant> cygwin sucks
19:45:14 <AnMaster> decipher, damn pdcurses rather
19:47:34 <AnMaster> thing I really dislike about C preprocessor: the need for do { ... } while(0) hack
19:48:16 <bsmntbombdood> meh
19:49:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the error handling in your clear() may be wrong too
19:49:40 <AnMaster> not sure
19:49:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: as for wgetch, I don't think it can return ERR
19:50:12 <Deewiant> not where and how it's used, anyway
19:50:26 <AnMaster> wgetch
19:50:26 <AnMaster> returns an error if the window pointer is null, or if its timeout expires without having any data.
19:50:33 <Deewiant> yes, exactly
19:50:42 <Deewiant> the window is stdscr and hence never null
19:50:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in that implementation
19:50:46 <Deewiant> and it has no timeout
19:50:52 <AnMaster> I think implementation can define additional errors
19:50:52 <Deewiant> hence it doesn't return an error
19:51:10 <Deewiant> if that was ncurses then I'm good because PDCurses says the same :-P
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19:51:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, future ncurses versions could return ERR :P
19:51:41 <Deewiant> I doubt it
19:52:47 <AnMaster> NOTES
19:52:48 <AnMaster> Note that erase, werase, clear, wclear, clrtobot, and clrtoeol may be macros.
19:52:50 <AnMaster> interesting
19:52:56 <AnMaster> and you use werase
19:52:58 <Deewiant> and many others as well
19:53:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, your code would fail it it was a macro
19:53:32 <Deewiant> meh
19:53:37 <Deewiant> it's not a macro in pdcurses
19:54:00 <Deewiant> ah well
19:54:08 <AnMaster> nor in ncurses, however plain erase() is
19:54:18 <Deewiant> yes because MACROS ARE MORE OPTIMAL
19:54:26 <Deewiant> what's wrong with these people
19:54:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I didn't claim that
19:54:29 <AnMaster> *shrug*
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19:54:48 <AnMaster> maybe because it seemed like a waste to just have a function like:
19:55:12 <AnMaster> int erase(void) { return werease(stdscr); }
19:55:21 <Deewiant> yes but it's not a waste to have a macro
19:55:22 <Deewiant> riiight
19:55:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I didn't say that
19:55:41 <Deewiant> no, you didn't, but your argument would imply that
19:55:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I didn't say that I agreed with them either
19:56:00 <Deewiant> no, you didn't
19:56:01 <AnMaster> I just said that may be the logic behind it
19:56:12 <Deewiant> and I followed that logic somewhat
19:56:38 <AnMaster> you should have stopped and asked for directions a few times during that trip :P
19:56:59 <Deewiant> nah, I made it fine, just aggravated
19:58:04 <AnMaster> E (m -- ) Set echo mode to m (1 == echo, 0 == noecho).
19:58:05 <AnMaster> hm
19:58:13 <AnMaster> your code only checks if it is "true/false"
19:58:24 <AnMaster> I don't know D, but what would that do on, say, 2
19:58:31 <AnMaster> void toggleEcho () { if ((ip.stack.pop ? echo () : noecho()) == ERR) reverse(); }
19:58:53 <Deewiant> 2 is UNDEF and true
19:58:58 <AnMaster> I don't know exactly what it does but probably it should reverse on 2 or so
19:58:59 <Deewiant> same as C
19:59:06 <Deewiant> yeah, I suppose
19:59:08 <AnMaster> since it is a non-allowed value
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20:04:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the NCRS mycology test has some issues
20:04:25 <AnMaster> like asking to press enter a few times when any other char works
20:04:39 <Deewiant> it might not work in a future version of curses :-P
20:05:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm, also it says "press any function key", using a "h" works fine
20:05:15 <AnMaster> This should be at the top of the screen
20:05:16 <AnMaster> dThe rest of the screen should have cleared
20:05:16 <AnMaster> Trying to overwrite above with M and C, press any key to continue...
20:05:18 <AnMaster> that is from ccbi
20:05:19 <Deewiant> yes but the UNDEF result is not what you want
20:05:23 <AnMaster> one newline eaten
20:05:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the spurious d there is from using d instead of enter
20:05:52 <Deewiant> if it asks you to press key X that doesn't mean that you can't press key Y, only that results are undefined if you do
20:06:16 <AnMaster> Press any function key to continue...
20:06:16 <AnMaster> Got 266
20:06:20 <AnMaster> is that correct for F1?
20:06:27 <Deewiant> it's platform-specific
20:06:33 <AnMaster> great...
20:06:34 <Deewiant> and various other things -specific probably
20:07:07 <AnMaster> nice ccbi gives 265 for F1 instead
20:07:09 <AnMaster> that makes no sense
20:07:21 <Deewiant> heh
20:07:28 <AnMaster> void get() { ip.stack.push(cast(cell)wgetch(stdscr)); }
20:07:34 <AnMaster> I assume that was the function used?
20:08:03 <Deewiant> I don't know, see the char it corresponds to in the static constructor
20:08:03 <AnMaster> ok... now cfunge give me 265 too...
20:08:10 <AnMaster> must have pressed the wrong key
20:08:11 <AnMaster> first time
20:08:13 <AnMaster> I guess
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20:08:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well get() is G but:
20:08:48 <AnMaster> Press any function key to continue...
20:08:49 <AnMaster> Got 265
20:08:53 <AnMaster> doesn't say what one
20:13:12 <AnMaster> PORTABILITY
20:13:13 <AnMaster> These functions are described in the XSI Curses standard, Issue 4. It specifies that portable applications must not call initscr more than once.
20:13:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, heh ^
20:13:26 <AnMaster> oh and initscr() may be a macro :P
20:13:46 <Deewiant> oh great, for what
20:13:57 <AnMaster> NOTES
20:13:57 <AnMaster> Note that initscr and newterm may be macros.
20:14:01 <AnMaster> not that it is on my system
20:14:06 <AnMaster> just that is mentioned
20:14:16 <AnMaster> there are a lot of issues with that
20:14:22 <Deewiant> is Xinitscr standard?
20:14:32 <Deewiant> no, it's not
20:14:37 <AnMaster> No manual entry for Xinitscr
20:14:38 <Deewiant> but, uh
20:14:46 <Deewiant> what the hell can be used if initscr is a macro
20:14:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a C wrapper
20:14:59 <AnMaster> for everything
20:15:09 <AnMaster> also it should use proper prefix
20:15:11 <Deewiant> no, I don't want to do that :-P
20:15:12 <AnMaster> since it is a library
20:15:22 <AnMaster> I mean, cur_foo
20:15:22 <Deewiant> prefix?
20:15:23 <AnMaster> or something
20:15:25 <AnMaster> that would
20:15:32 <Deewiant> nah, curses is too old for that
20:15:33 <AnMaster> prevent stuff like this, in say C++
20:15:37 <AnMaster> myclass.clear()
20:15:46 <Deewiant> they didn't do that stuff back then and now it's been around too long to change it :-P
20:15:56 <AnMaster> / argh! this calls myclass.wclear(stdscr);
20:16:01 <AnMaster> //*
20:16:08 <AnMaster> or such
20:16:21 <AnMaster> see what I mean?
20:16:38 <AnMaster> on the other hand at least I don't get linking errors now
20:16:45 <AnMaster> since I have some functions that would collide
20:16:48 <AnMaster> with the ncurses ones
20:16:52 <AnMaster> if they weren't macros
20:17:13 <Deewiant> solution to all namespacing problems: make everything a macro!
20:17:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that has the other mentioned downside
20:33:25 <psygnisfive> la.
20:35:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it may be unportable to use TERM and then NCRS I think
20:35:38 <AnMaster> in the same process
20:36:01 <AnMaster> depends on how you implement them, but since you can probably assume TERM use termcap and that will use ncurses on linux...
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20:37:15 <Deewiant> based on the docs of TERM I claim that you can use TERM whenever you want without any harmful effects
20:37:21 <Deewiant> if the OS can't handle that, tough
20:37:38 <AnMaster> implementation defined if the OS can or not
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20:48:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, TERM and NCRS interact badly
20:48:48 <AnMaster> since both mess with stdscr
21:01:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw have you noticed how unusable NCRS is? No other fingerprint producing output may work
21:01:59 <AnMaster> such as BASE, STRN or FPDP
21:02:46 <Deewiant> Or , or .
21:02:57 <AnMaster> indeed
21:03:23 * AnMaster tries to make TERM and NCRS work together
21:03:25 <AnMaster> it is a pain
21:10:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is no way TERM and NCRS will play together nicely
21:10:46 <AnMaster> I can special case the code path for mycoterm to make it work
21:10:56 <AnMaster> but I don't think I can solve the general case
21:11:06 <AnMaster> say TERM after NCRS now
21:11:52 <Deewiant> why not
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22:23:25 <ehird> GregorR: SOmeone stole your game!!
22:23:31 <ehird> http://www.wikiwarp.com/
22:23:48 <GregorR> I didn't invent the game :P
22:24:03 <ehird> Shush you
22:24:06 <ehird> I like to be sensational
22:24:57 <GregorR> Yeah, but so's your face.
22:25:28 <ehird> Yeah but so's your faeces
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22:35:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, simple, NCRS I collides with TERM
22:35:32 <AnMaster> when you unload NCRS with I you mess up the ncurses data structures
22:35:54 <AnMaster> it is impossible to fix
22:36:06 <AnMaster> since TERM has nothing like I
22:36:16 <AnMaster> you can't check for unload/reload
22:36:26 <Deewiant> can't you reload ncurses when TERM is ('d
22:36:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes you can use I to initialize NCRS
22:37:06 <AnMaster> but: you can't unload NCRS in this order:
22:37:09 <AnMaster> load TERM:
22:37:12 <AnMaster> ok
22:37:18 <AnMaster> load NCRS: ok
22:37:26 <AnMaster> Use 1I
22:37:27 <AnMaster> ok
22:37:32 <AnMaster> Use 0I: ok
22:37:38 <AnMaster> Use any TERM function: crash
22:37:58 <Deewiant> just make 0I not actually unload if TERM is alive
22:38:14 <AnMaster> then it would actually break the functionality
22:38:25 <AnMaster> it would be non-conforming
22:38:32 <AnMaster> oh and of course you can't use more than exactly one 1I and one 0I during a session
22:38:59 <AnMaster> since calling initscr() more than once is undefined behaviour
22:39:20 <AnMaster> TERM use setupterm() that it seems you can use multiple times, initscr() calls setupterm()
22:39:45 <AnMaster> and I'm not making all of cfunge use ncurses, no way
22:40:06 <AnMaster> it may be possible, but painful, to notify the other module of changes
22:40:08 <AnMaster> as they happen
22:40:27 <Deewiant> well that'd be the easiest way :-P
22:40:32 <AnMaster> would make them slow since they need to check state flags all the time
22:40:34 <oklopol> o
22:40:46 <AnMaster> not a lot of overhead I guess
22:41:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and I believe ccbi may be invoking UD there
22:42:21 <Deewiant> where?
22:42:30 <AnMaster> ah now you just don't support TERM on posix
22:42:35 <AnMaster> s/now/no/
22:42:38 <Deewiant> yep
22:43:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I see you ask for help there
22:43:03 * AnMaster looks at the code
22:43:07 <AnMaster> what was the issue with it
22:43:32 <Deewiant> I read the specs and did stuff and stuff didn't seem to work at all :-P
22:43:36 <Deewiant> I can't remember, it's been months
22:43:45 <AnMaster> well you know I can't compile it
22:43:47 <Deewiant> and you did say that you got stuff to work using termcap directly
22:44:08 <Deewiant> nah, you just haven't bothered to set yourself up to compile it
22:44:15 <Deewiant> but yeah, in any case
22:44:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I was using ncurses/termcap stuff yes
22:44:23 <Deewiant> based on what you said I might as well drop it
22:44:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you use ncurses in TERM?
22:44:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ...
22:45:13 <AnMaster> NAME
22:45:13 <AnMaster> del_curterm, mvcur, putp, restartterm, set_curterm, setterm, setupterm, tigetflag, tigetnum, tigetstr, tparm, tputs, vid_attr, vid_puts, vidattr, vidputs -
22:45:13 <AnMaster> curses interfaces to terminfo database
22:45:13 <AnMaster> SYNOPSIS
22:45:13 <AnMaster> #include <curses.h>
22:45:17 <AnMaster> #include <term.h>
22:45:19 <AnMaster> see the include curses?
22:45:40 <Deewiant> wtf
22:45:43 <AnMaster> $ qfile /usr/include/term.h
22:45:43 <AnMaster> sys-libs/ncurses (/usr/include/term.h)
22:45:45 <Deewiant> what's the lowest level
22:45:45 <AnMaster> see that?
22:45:50 <Deewiant> yes, I am not blind
22:46:02 <AnMaster> well they are provided by the same package
22:46:18 <Deewiant> what is the lowest level of functionality which allows this
22:46:19 <AnMaster> which is WHY TERM and NCRS collide
22:46:21 <Deewiant> is it not the shell
22:46:24 <Deewiant> and its escape codes
22:46:25 <AnMaster> eh?
22:46:31 <AnMaster> shell has escape codes?
22:46:33 <AnMaster> very funny
22:46:37 <Deewiant> erm
22:46:40 <AnMaster> you mean the terminal or the terminal emulator
22:46:44 <Deewiant> yes
22:46:54 <AnMaster> well yes that is it
22:46:55 <Deewiant> my point is, why the fuck does that use curses
22:47:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, *same package providing both interfaces on linux*
22:47:28 <Deewiant> sigh, so you didn't answer my question
22:47:31 <Deewiant> do you use ncurses
22:47:33 <Deewiant> in TERM
22:47:35 <Deewiant> or not
22:47:42 <Deewiant> I don't care what the header includes
22:47:45 <AnMaster> yes, I use the term.h interface, which is provided by ncurses
22:47:56 <AnMaster> which is what you used too I see
22:48:45 <Deewiant> right, but you don't use any of the higher-level curses functions
22:48:53 <AnMaster> not in TERM no
22:48:57 <AnMaster> only in NCRS
22:49:10 <AnMaster> and TERM and NCRS collide basically, since they both end up messing with the same low level terminal info static variables
22:49:13 <AnMaster> internally in ncurses
22:49:25 <Deewiant> alright, so then screw TERM
22:49:30 <AnMaster> why?
22:49:35 <AnMaster> TERM is more useful IMO
22:49:53 <AnMaster> anyway I plan to have both and track state between them
22:50:07 <AnMaster> I already do something like that between SOCK and SCKE
22:50:35 <Deewiant> meh
22:50:40 <Deewiant> whatever, I'm going to sleep
22:50:44 <AnMaster> heh
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23:19:57 -!- Mony has quit ("'night").
23:27:41 <ehird> } > kill cockatrice
23:27:42 <ehird> }
23:27:43 <ehird> } With what? Your bare hands?
23:27:46 <ehird> }
23:27:47 <ehird> } > yes
23:27:49 <ehird> -- internet oracle bestof
23:33:33 <oklopol> ^bool
23:33:33 <fungot> No.
23:33:39 <oklopol> another episode?
23:33:40 <oklopol> ^bool
23:33:40 <fungot> Yes.
23:33:43 <oklopol> okay.
23:38:20 <oerjan> Go to bed?
23:38:22 <oerjan> ^bool
23:38:23 <fungot> No.
23:38:29 <oerjan> okay.
23:43:47 <ehird> hi oerjan
23:43:50 <ehird> hi oklopol
23:44:03 <ehird> Will you say No?
23:44:04 <ehird> ^bool
23:44:04 <fungot> No.
23:44:08 <ehird> ...
23:44:10 <ehird> O SHI
23:44:12 <oerjan> fungot knows
23:44:13 <fungot> oerjan: which include, but a player may spend one note of that player's possession. the muq of the
23:44:23 * ehird has quit (connection reset by paradox)
23:46:42 <ehird> fizzie: plz 2 be fixing paradox
23:58:18 <ehird> http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
23:58:18 <ehird> Wikipædia is a project tae big a free encyclopædia in mony leids.
2008-12-21
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11:30:30 <Mony> plop
11:31:19 <oklopol> hiiii
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12:30:05 <AnMaster> yay for oprofile
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13:32:03 <oklopol> AnMaster: you're an oprophile too?
13:33:11 <oklopol> (hmm... is that coprophilia with your eyes closed? :\)
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14:10:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, huh?
14:11:17 <oklopol> AnMaster: lowbrow pun
14:11:17 <AnMaster> I haven't used the system level profiler oprofile much before, but it turned out to be really useful
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14:11:43 <ehird> Ara T. Howard
14:11:44 -!- ehird has left (?).
14:11:47 <oklopol> well two puns in a way
14:12:31 <AnMaster> sigh
14:12:40 <oklopol> :-)
14:12:53 <oklopol> i don't know oprofile
14:12:58 <oklopol> then again, my o
14:12:58 <AnMaster> zat was not funny!
14:13:01 <oklopol> 's don'
14:13:04 <oklopol> t need profiling
14:13:10 <oklopol> and i'm a bit enter-happy it seems
14:13:17 <AnMaster> http://oprofile.sourceforge.net btw
14:13:23 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes it was funny!
14:13:36 <AnMaster> oklopol, and what did I quote there above?
14:14:02 <AnMaster> maybe misquoted since I quoted from memory
14:14:43 * AnMaster waits for oklopol to find that
14:14:47 <AnMaster> that out*
14:15:26 <AnMaster> brb
14:15:26 <oklopol> what do you mean
14:15:36 <oklopol> i'm so confuzzled!
14:16:40 <AnMaster> back
14:16:41 <AnMaster> well
14:16:46 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> zat was not funny!
14:17:01 <AnMaster> was a quote from something
14:17:12 <oklopol> ohh
14:17:14 <AnMaster> and I wonder if you know what
14:17:19 <oklopol> no i don't
14:17:25 <AnMaster> Monty Python
14:17:34 * AnMaster tries to remember the name of that sketch
14:17:50 <AnMaster> "The funniest joke in the world" or something like that iirc
14:17:57 <oklopol> i've heard about that
14:18:13 <oklopol> but i don't follow the nerd popular culture that actively
14:18:21 <oklopol> i've only seen like two montys
14:20:52 <AnMaster> which ones?
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14:24:38 <ehird> you know, mindlessly repeating monty python is so ironic
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15:02:59 <oklopol> ehird: ironic how
15:03:14 <oklopol> the xkcd way?
15:03:18 <ehird> how like your face.
15:03:21 <ehird> oh!
15:03:22 <ehird> Snap.
15:03:43 <oklopol> speaking of snap i want noodles
15:04:37 <oklopol> AnMaster: the grail one and the death one
15:05:16 <oklopol> although i was half-asleep through grail, i just remember the scene with the limbless knight
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15:06:35 <oklopol> back to my book!
15:06:36 <oklopol> ->
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15:09:18 <ehird> oklopol: stop reading
15:09:21 <ehird> it's bad for you
15:11:03 <oklopol> how could learning c++ be bad for me!
15:11:25 <ehird> oklopol: why do you want to learn c++
15:12:26 <oklopol> first of all i already know c++, second of all all i care about is it's a book for a course i'm on, so i'm reading it.
15:12:54 <ehird> oklopol: third of all A
15:13:04 <oklopol> what about A
15:13:15 <ehird> oklopol: it's
15:13:16 <ehird> x
15:13:23 <oklopol> oh
15:13:30 <oklopol> well i don't have other reasons really
15:13:38 <oklopol> except, well, c++ is an okay language.
15:13:48 <oklopol> i hate it, yes, but it's not a bad language
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15:15:04 <oklopol> i'm really only annoyed by the fact it's so fucking pedantic about the order of declarations¨
15:15:26 <oklopol> well order of declarations and definitions and all that crap
15:15:30 <oklopol> *declarations
15:15:35 <oklopol> readings ->
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15:15:45 <ehird> oklopol: aaaaaaaaaaa
15:15:55 <oklopol> o
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15:37:58 <oklopol> okay buy buy, i'm living now ->
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15:54:38 <ehird> Deewiant: hey, you know that haskell build system you made for your site? what was it again?
15:55:45 <Deewiant> coadjute
15:56:03 <ehird> helpful :-D
15:56:17 <Deewiant> Ask a more specific question :-P
15:58:15 <ehird> Deewiant: any links? I seem to recall it being interesting :P
15:59:08 <Deewiant> no links I'm afraid; with any luck I'll publish some kind of 0.0 this year
16:00:18 <Deewiant> if you want to look at something you can have it on request: my home site's file, source tarball
16:01:09 <ehird> Deewiant: either would be appreciated :-P it'd also be nice to read more real-world haskell programs... I haven't got very good at that yet :D
16:02:21 <Deewiant> iki.fi/deewiant/temp/Adjutant.hs for the former
16:02:41 <Deewiant> not designed for readability or anything though :-P
16:02:50 <ehird> Deewiant: i think it might be an idea to give the file a less obscure name ;-P
16:02:59 <Deewiant> googlability is nice
16:03:21 <ehird> true
16:03:32 <ehird> but Coadjute would be googled more than Adjutant I imagine
16:04:02 <Deewiant> yeah, but it'd be nice if Coadjute and X made some sense together so X = Adjutant :-P
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16:06:30 <ehird> Deewiant: i don't get how rule works
16:07:44 <Deewiant> iki.fi/deewiant/temp/coadjute.tar.bz2 for git repo
16:08:50 <Deewiant> rule basically makes a build rule :-P
16:09:26 <Deewiant> I forget its type, which would probably (should hopefully) help in deciphering
16:16:49 * ehird opens emacs and grumbles
16:16:55 <ehird> stupid emacs.
16:17:21 <Deewiant> why open it if it induces grumbling
16:17:37 <ehird> because editing haskell is near-impossible in anything else
16:17:46 <Deewiant> vim works for me
16:17:56 <ehird> yeah that's because you're a masochist
16:18:05 <Deewiant> :-P
16:18:17 <ehird> Deewiant: I have to learn Arrows now, don't I?
16:18:23 <Deewiant> no, no arrows in there
16:18:28 <ehird> import Control.Arrow (first, second)
16:18:38 <ehird> Fuck you Haskellers and your academia and your DAMNED LIES. :-|
16:18:39 <Deewiant> first f (x,y) = (f x, y)
16:18:43 <Deewiant> second f (x,y) = (x, f y)
16:18:51 <Deewiant> (f &&& g) x = (f x, g x)
16:18:54 <ehird> why is that in Control dot bloody Arrow
16:18:57 <Deewiant> (f *** g) (x,y) = (f x, g y)
16:19:09 <Deewiant> because they're AMAZINGLY GENERAL
16:19:10 <ehird> "WHERE SHOULD WE PUT THESE TRIVIAL FUNCTIONS? LET'S PICK A RANDOM ACADEMIC PLACE"
16:19:27 <Deewiant> it's more of a coincidence that they're handy for those trivial uses, I think
16:19:34 <Deewiant> but yeah, Data.Tuple should really have those.
16:19:35 <ehird> versionString :: String
16:19:35 <ehird> versionString = "the ultimate version of ultimate destiny"
16:19:41 <ehird> that is some version.
16:19:55 <Deewiant> that's one reason why it's not released yet. ;-)
16:19:57 * ehird spawns a new haskell frame and proceeds to steal your basic app structure
16:20:02 <ehird> FEAR ME
16:20:06 <ehird> err
16:20:08 <ehird> s/haskell/emacs/
16:20:17 <Deewiant> oh noes, what are you doing with my app structure
16:20:33 <ehird> umm, making an app that I haven't actually figured out what it is yet
16:20:54 <Deewiant> oh noes
16:21:07 <ehird> agh what the new frame shares the same buffers
16:21:12 <ehird> how the hell do you just get a new blank frame in emacs
16:21:15 <ehird> don't say open it twice
16:21:59 <ehird> i see.
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16:39:00 <ehird> grumble haskell lacking basic things grumble
16:42:56 <ehird> also: grumble at field names being unnamespaced functions
16:43:01 <ehird> on records
16:45:52 <Warrigal> It'd be nice if Haskell had global variables.
16:45:59 <ehird> it does.
16:46:04 <ehird> myVar = makeIORef
16:46:08 <ehird> err
16:46:10 <ehird> well, not quite
16:46:11 <ehird> but w/e
16:46:12 <ehird> IORefs.
16:47:12 <ehird> Deewiant: what do you do when you want to have two records with fields named the same
16:47:12 <ehird> >_<
16:47:57 <Warrigal> You can't have "myVar <- makeIORef" as a statement in your program, and if you put it in main, then you can't refer to it outside of main.
16:48:21 <Warrigal> I guess you could use those fancy implicit parameters.
16:48:56 <ehird> Warrigal: why do you want a global variable?
16:49:00 <ehird> you might as well just use an imperative language.
16:49:29 <Warrigal> No, because Haskell has features that imperative langauges do not.
16:50:03 <ehird> and they work because it's a functional language
16:50:07 <Warrigal> Don't say "if you want A, you might as well do B" if B has problems that the alternative does not.
16:50:27 <ehird> imperative+globvars has less probs than haskell+globvars.
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17:26:11 <ehird> Hm. I wonder if a nice esolang has appeared yet. :P
17:32:26 <Warrigal> Subleq is a great esolang, but it's really annoying to code in.
17:32:37 <ehird> it's not that great
17:32:42 <ehird> maybe i'll write redivider in haskell
17:33:03 <Warrigal> Redivider, that language that's actually Parsec.
17:33:51 <ehird> It isn't Parsec.
17:33:57 <ehird> Although you can parse it. With Parsec.
17:34:05 <ehird> and yes, I know it's yours.
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17:59:40 <ehird> Warrigal: yo dawg, I herd u liek parsec so I used parsec to parse your actually-parsec so you can parse your parser
18:01:39 <Warrigal> You da man.
18:05:15 <ehird> Warrigal: what precedence do rediv ops have
18:05:34 <Deewiant> ehird: you don't have two records with fields named the same :-P
18:05:43 <ehird> Deewiant: why not :|
18:05:58 <Deewiant> because the haskell record system is not very fancy, they're just functions
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18:06:04 <ehird> I know but it should be fancy
18:06:05 <Deewiant> and what do you do when you want two functions named the same
18:06:12 <ehird> Because it could be really useful.
18:06:15 <ehird> It's not.
18:06:21 <Deewiant> answer: either you don't, or you put them in separate modules and do qualified imports and whatnot
18:06:35 <Deewiant> It is useful, it's not 'really useful' though, yes.
18:06:51 <Deewiant> I think there've been some papers on the subject of improving it but nobody really knows what's the best idea
18:07:25 <ehird> I should learn how to read and edit the GHC source and how to make a nice Haskell language extension, then make a patchset for nice records and get it widely used.
18:07:31 <ehird> Wait no, I'd rather shoot myself in the face.
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18:11:25 <Deewiant> I've tried for the past two months or so to get GHC to compile on Windows so I could hack on it (mostly the RTS and stuff to fix Windows-only bugs), but no luck
18:11:42 <ehird> isn't it written in really old-style haskell?
18:11:52 <ehird> iirc it has its own monad definition somewhere from before they were used for io and stuff
18:13:20 <oerjan> um ghc is written in ghc haskell
18:13:48 <Deewiant> I'm not sure what you mean by "old-style" but AFAIK no
18:21:36 <ehird> oerjan: yeah but
18:21:48 <ehird> well someone in #haskell just said that the code was dated
18:21:48 <ehird> :P
18:21:55 <ehird> ages ago
18:26:04 <Deewiant> well yeah, it's "dated" but I think "style" might be the wrong word here
18:26:18 <Deewiant> one big thing is that it doesn't use hierarchical modules, it just prefixes everything
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18:26:29 <Deewiant> so instead of Foo.Bar.baz you have FooBarbaz or even FBbaz if you're unlucky
18:26:43 <Deewiant> (I'm not sure how bad it actually is, might not be that bad)
18:31:12 <oklopol> o
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19:55:41 <Warrigal> ehird: does the BNF give you operator precedence?
19:55:49 <ehird> Dunno. :D
19:56:14 <Warrigal> Yes, I think it does.
19:57:04 <Warrigal> So use that.
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21:02:00 <ehird> Abusing bugs for fun and quineity:
21:02:01 <ehird> print inspect.getsource(lambda: None)
21:02:03 <ehird> err
21:02:05 <ehird> import inspect; print inspect.getsource(lambda: None)
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21:48:43 <oerjan> +ul x
21:48:49 <oerjan> ^ul x
21:48:49 <fungot> ...bad insn!
21:49:27 <oerjan> ^ul (:aSS):aSS...bad insn!
21:49:27 <fungot> (:aSS):aSS ...bad insn!
21:49:36 <oerjan> erm
21:49:44 <Slereah_> insn?
21:49:59 <oerjan> insemination, obviously
21:50:22 <Slereah_> Insemination in the aSS?
21:51:21 <oerjan> +ul (::^)::^
21:51:40 <thutubot> ...too much memory used!
21:51:58 <ehird> 21:50 Slereah_: Insemination in the aSS?
21:51:59 <ehird> I lolled
21:52:21 <oklopol> oooooo
21:52:51 <oklopol> HEY
21:53:00 <oklopol> that's not the link to the logs!
21:53:34 <oerjan> brilliant, holmes
21:55:07 <oklopol> :|
21:57:08 <oerjan> ^bf ]
21:57:08 <fungot> Mismatched [].
21:57:17 <oerjan> ^bf [
21:57:18 <fungot> Mismatched [].
21:57:20 <oerjan> darn
21:58:39 <oklopol> :::D
22:03:05 <fizzie> Don't you go inseminating my bot.
22:03:30 <fizzie> And that (:aSS):aSS... "bad insn" message comes when it tries to execute the '.' there.
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22:29:12 <oklopol> fizzie: i'm pretty sure oerjan knows that, he made that bot.
22:29:25 <oklopol> just a figure of speech of course.
22:29:41 <Slereah_> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:29:41 <fungot> !
22:29:44 <Slereah_> :D
22:29:50 <oklopol> :D
22:29:54 <oklopol> are you happy
22:30:03 <oklopol> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:30:03 <fungot> %
22:30:09 <Slereah_> Happy like a frankenstein monster
22:30:21 <oklopol> ^bf++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:30:27 <oklopol> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:30:27 <fungot>
22:30:36 <oklopol> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:30:36 <fungot> <CTCP>
22:30:40 <oklopol> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:30:41 <fungot>
22:30:45 <oklopol> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:30:46 <fungot>
22:30:49 <oklopol> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:30:49 <fungot>
22:30:53 <oklopol> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:30:53 <fungot>
22:30:57 <oklopol> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:30:57 <fungot>
22:31:01 <oklopol> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:31:01 <fungot> \
22:31:05 <oklopol> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:31:05 <fungot> e
22:31:09 <oklopol> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:31:09 <fungot> n
22:31:12 <oklopol> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:31:13 <fungot> o
22:31:15 <oklopol> o
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22:37:53 <fizzie> Prelude Data.List> take 5 $ iterate (++ "ko") "o"
22:37:53 <fizzie> ["o","oko","okoko","okokoko","okokokoko"]
22:38:50 <oklopol> ("ok" ++) is faster
22:41:35 <fizzie> I'm not sure I mind.
22:41:46 <oklopol> 8|
22:42:20 <fizzie> let oko = "o":[o++"ko"|o <- oko] in take 5 $ oko looks sillier.
22:43:36 <fizzie> Maybe some sleep is in order; work-day tomorrow, even though the whole place will probably be completely empty.
22:43:46 <oklopol> why would it be empty
22:44:06 <ehird> > let oko = "o" : map ("ok" ++) oko in oko
22:44:17 <ehird> after it goes through infinite okos of the first oko, it okos the rest of the okos!
22:44:54 <oklopol> okokokokokokoko
22:45:13 <fizzie> oklopol: I think most people have started their winter vacationary stuff already, since wed-fri are holidays anyway.
22:45:34 <AnMaster> hi
22:45:36 <fizzie> There might be some students, though; I think there's still some exams.
22:45:46 <oklopol> i wish i had exams
22:46:01 <AnMaster> when do you get the presents in Finland?
22:46:09 <AnMaster> Same as in Sweden? (24th)
22:46:10 <oklopol> 24
22:46:14 <oklopol> ya
22:46:19 <fizzie> oklopol: You can do one of ours, I'm sure no-one would notice.
22:46:20 <AnMaster> right
22:46:29 <oklopol> fizzie: what do you have?
22:46:44 <ehird> 25th here in uk/us
22:46:49 <fizzie> oklopol: Checking.
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22:46:51 <oklopol> i mean i don't know *everything*.
22:47:34 <ehird> AnMaster: whuzzup with you finnswedes and your xmas-on-24th
22:47:48 <ehird> oh wait, xmas is on 25th but giftz are on 24th??
22:47:50 <ehird> rite?
22:47:51 <ehird> or no
22:48:01 <oklopol> all the celebration stuff is 24
22:48:05 <oklopol> 25 is just a day.
22:48:22 <fizzie> But 24th is still called "christmas eve", while 25th and 26th are the two christmas days.
22:48:24 <oklopol> kinda like 26 only it has a name
22:48:27 <ehird> fizzie: tha
22:48:28 <oklopol> hmm
22:48:29 <ehird> 's weirdo.
22:48:34 <oklopol> 26 is a christmas day too?
22:48:42 <ehird> why would you celebrate onthe day before the event
22:49:09 <oklopol> ehird: who gives a boobie?
22:49:14 <fizzie> oklopol: I think I've heard it called "toinen joulupäivä" (lit. second christmas day).
22:49:20 <ehird> oklopol: me
22:49:24 <ehird> 25th is so much more logical
22:49:32 <oklopol> fizzie: hmm sounds familiar indeed
22:49:45 <fizzie> oklopol: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joulu agrees with me.
22:50:04 <oklopol> ehird: no it isn't, no one wants to celebrate during the day, so it's nicer to be celebrating when christmas day is at its darkest, just starting
22:50:20 <ehird> meh
22:50:22 <fizzie> oklopol: Anyway, for the CS department the only monday exams are T-76.5613 "software testing and quality assurance" and T-106.4155 "operating systems".
22:50:28 <ehird> christmas has too much buildup in the ok
22:50:30 <ehird> uk
22:50:31 <ehird> i mean
22:50:37 <oklopol> fizzie: well i just read modern operating systems
22:50:37 <ehird> christmas shit starts being advertised
22:50:38 <ehird> in OCTOBER
22:50:44 <ehird> wtfs up with that
22:50:45 <oklopol> you don't happen to know what the book is?
22:51:42 <fizzie> oklopol: It's "William Stallings: Operating Systems: Internals and Design Principles". Wasn't Modern Operating Systems the Tanenbaum book? If so, that's the one they used for the old OS course.
22:52:02 <oklopol> i see.
22:52:18 <oklopol> our operating systems course prof is looking for another book now, guess i know what he'll choose then.
22:52:42 <oklopol> and yeah it's the tanenbaum book
22:52:52 <ehird> tanenbaum argued with linus torvalds in like 1992 about linux
22:52:53 <oklopol> circus stuff in the frontcover
22:52:54 <ehird> it was silly
22:52:56 <oklopol> yes
22:53:14 <ehird> i am deliberately wording it like that so I sound cool
22:53:15 <ehird> as in
22:53:20 <ehird> because it sounds like I was there.
22:53:28 <oklopol> because linus didn't have a microkernel
22:53:34 <oklopol> ...yes linus
22:53:50 <oklopol> his kernel was mostly made out of guts
22:53:59 <fizzie> oklopol: I also know there's a statistics exam (or maybe just the second mid-term thing) tomorrow, if you like that more.
22:54:17 <oklopol> fizzie: i don't know anything about statistics
22:54:33 <oklopol> well at least i think i don't
22:55:03 <fizzie> Well, the operating systems sounds like your best bet, then.
22:55:07 <oklopol> ehird: weren't you there?
22:55:15 <ehird> ummm
22:55:16 <ehird> yes
22:55:30 <ehird> despite not being alive
22:55:42 <oklopol> yeah, although i somehow feel MOS might have less content than OSIDP
22:55:50 <oklopol> i mean, have you read the book?
22:56:09 <fizzie> MOS, yes; OSIDP, no.
22:56:20 <oklopol> i mean, i love it, it's full of details and can suddenly burst into a list of a thousand algorithms
22:56:27 <fizzie> The (new) course probably won't be very in-depth, though.
22:56:49 <oklopol> but somehow it still seems to only scratch the surface
22:57:19 <oklopol> ("now, for no reason, let's go over how jpg's work!")
22:58:08 <oklopol> ("so now that we're discussing drivers, how about we take a look at how cd's work and talk a few pages about their history?")
22:58:19 <oklopol> hmm
22:58:29 <oklopol> well true, usually courses tend to get easier, not harder
23:01:08 <oklopol> and indeed, our prof is looking for a "less theoretical" book
23:01:11 <oklopol> i guess that means simpler
23:05:10 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure the Tanenbaum "LINUX is obsolete" newspost[1] was mentioned during the OS course, though. It's quite a classic. [1] http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.minix/msg/f447530d082cd95d
23:05:56 <fizzie> "I would suggest that people who want a **MODERN** "free" OS look around for a microkernel-based, portable OS, like maybe GNU or something like that."
23:06:11 <oklopol> our os course consists of reading the book and taking the exam
23:06:14 <fizzie> Haven't heard much news about Hurd lately.
23:06:44 <ehird> fizzie: well, chinese democracy and python3 are out
23:06:47 <ehird> anything is possible
23:06:58 <fizzie> oklopol: You mean there weren't any lectures?
23:07:10 <oklopol> fizzie: well there were 6 lectures
23:07:21 <oklopol> but i didn't attend them, and they were just an introduction
23:07:50 <oklopol> but yeah the first os course in our uni is just a book exam
23:07:54 <oklopol> or whatever's a good term
23:08:19 <fizzie> I think our course had at least one weekly lecture for a whole half-year term. Still, I think I mostly took the "read the book" approach.
23:08:20 <ehird> http://superunprivileged.org/ "hurd advocacy page"; second line: rms' awful free software song
23:08:24 <ehird> I think that says it all
23:10:48 <fizzie> We have an "operating system project" add-on course for those who are interested; they start with some skeleton code (used to be stripped-down nachos -- http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/tom/nachos/ -- but now is buenos -- http://www.niksula.hut.fi/~buenos/buenos.html ) and they have to implement the usual things like file systems, virtual memory and things like that.
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23:11:26 <oklopol> i wish we had that
23:11:39 <oklopol> your uni is so much cooler
23:12:02 <fizzie> I'm just advertising; in reality it sucks.
23:12:18 <fizzie> But maybe not as much as it could.
23:12:24 <ehird> everything sucks
23:12:26 <oklopol> but, i'm thinking maybe leaving abroad after ...my candidate?
23:12:27 <oklopol> what's it called
23:12:34 <ehird> oklopol come to england!
23:12:43 <oklopol> i might graduate next year
23:12:47 <ehird> we have 0 civil liberties and the weather sucks and it's boring
23:12:49 <ehird> and we're all idiots
23:12:53 <ehird> what more could you want
23:12:55 <fizzie> Bachelor's degree is the semi-equivalent term, I think.
23:13:07 <fizzie> I skipped the OS project, but I've heard comments that as far as university coursework goes, it was one of the more interesting ones.
23:13:24 <oklopol> well that's not very surprising imo
23:13:44 <fizzie> If you want no civil liberties and sucky weather, I don't think you really have to leave Finland.
23:13:47 <oklopol> they can't leave the fun stuff out because they'd have to leave everything out
23:14:05 <oklopol> what are civil liberties?
23:14:13 <oklopol> i have all the liberties i could wish for
23:14:14 <ehird> civil liberties = freedom to do shit.
23:14:24 <ehird> in the UK, everyone's a terrorist.
23:14:36 <ehird> fizzie: uhh, isn't the finland like super-liberal compared to uk/us?
23:14:40 <ehird> "the finland" xD
23:14:56 <fizzie> ehird: We're still working on getting rid of those, yes, but I'm sure they're catching up.
23:15:16 <ehird> proto: #esoteric nation
23:15:21 <ehird> nomics can come too.
23:17:16 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_micronations is surprisingly long.
23:17:43 <oklopol> not really, everyone wants one of those, only natural a small percentage gets it
23:17:53 <fizzie> Some of the one-phrase descriptions are amusing. Like "BjornSocialist Republic": "A self-proclaimed Marxist state of about 6 square metres (7.18 sq yd) located on a stone "that looks like a tractor" in Lake Immeln, Scania, Sweden."
23:18:03 <fizzie> oklopol: But it's Wikipedia; all those are Notable(tm)!
23:18:13 <oklopol> ohh
23:20:15 <oerjan> there needs to be a really micro nation. just 15 micrometers across.
23:20:34 <ehird> oerjan: 15 micrometers of my table declare independence from the england
23:20:36 <ehird> done
23:20:48 <oklopol> the england?
23:20:49 <ehird> "the england"
23:20:51 <ehird> wtf is up with me
23:20:52 <ehird> first the finland
23:20:53 <ehird> now the england
23:21:00 <oklopol> soon accidentally the whole world
23:21:01 <Slereah_> The one and only England.
23:21:08 <ehird> oklopol: lol
23:23:02 <fizzie> Speaking of nations, I am amused by the shape of the Finland/Sweden border at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Märket
23:23:25 <ehird> lol
23:27:05 <oklopol> i am amused by bjarne not even trying to explain the things that suck about c++
23:27:35 <oklopol> he just says "unfortunately c++ does this", and puts a sad face after the sentence ":("
23:27:40 <ehird> lol
23:29:22 <fizzie> Java VM uses two slots of the .class file constant table for long/double (read: 8-byte) values; and they've bothered to add a footnote about that in the specification: "In retrospect, making 8-byte constants take two constant pool entries was a poor choice."
23:29:48 <fizzie> They really should've added a ":(" after that one.
23:31:26 <oklopol> i don't understand
23:31:39 <ehird> 23:31 oklopol: i don't understand
23:31:41 <ehird> Cherish this moment.
23:31:47 <oklopol> :D
23:31:57 <oklopol> hey i can be pretty slow
23:33:04 <oklopol> i'm assuming the constant table is just some kinda big array
23:33:28 <fizzie> Yes, but it already has entries of variable sizes; like strings and things like that.
23:33:39 <oklopol> ah
23:34:07 <fizzie> I guess it's a bit confusing when two specific entry types (for no particularly good reason) suddenly take up two slots in the table.
23:35:33 <oklopol> yeah
23:36:23 <oklopol> bjarne does advertise this other book about the process of making c++
23:36:34 <oklopol> perhaps he'd explain the weird stuff there
23:37:32 <fizzie> Or maybe he just says "It's like this because I screwed up here. ;/ :( X-D"
23:38:04 <ehird> "Lol, I fuxxored up this part of the threading. sry :(("
23:38:38 <oklopol> threading doesn't have much room in a book about c++
23:40:08 <oklopol> south park time ->
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23:53:21 <AnMaster> <fizzie> oklopol: I think I've heard it called "toinen joulupäivä" (lit. second christmas day).
23:53:24 <AnMaster> err yea
23:53:28 <AnMaster> annandag jul
23:53:32 <AnMaster> in Swedish
23:53:40 <AnMaster> old word form and such
23:53:50 <AnMaster> "secondday xmas" basically
23:53:55 <AnMaster> which sounds silly in Swedish too
23:54:06 <AnMaster> common name for it though
2008-12-22
00:00:24 <fizzie> The more common term in Finland is "Tapaninpäivä".
00:00:38 <fizzie> "Tapani's day", where Tapani is an old-fashioned Finnish name.
00:00:42 <AnMaster> hm ok
00:01:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, we also have something even more silly for the days just before "dan för doppardan", "dan före dan före doppardan" (up to 3 iterations is used seriously)
00:01:46 <AnMaster> due to certain culinary traditions
00:01:54 <AnMaster> "dopp i grytan"
00:02:07 * AnMaster don't like dopp i grytan at all
00:02:11 <AnMaster> doesn't*
00:03:33 <oklopol> ohh tapaninpäivä
00:03:37 <oklopol> yeah okay i know that
00:04:43 <fizzie> Apparently 26th is also "St Stephen's Day" elsewhere.
00:05:15 <oklopol> stephen ~ tapani? that's a bit of a stretch
00:05:39 <fizzie> Stephanos, from the original Greek name.
00:06:05 <fizzie> I wouldn't be too surprised if that is the official etymology for Tapani.
00:06:19 <oklopol> i wouldn't either
00:06:38 <oklopol> o oko okoko oko o
00:07:05 <fizzie> s/^st/t/ is what we do, and so on.
00:07:09 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Tapani
00:07:50 <fizzie> Oh, Boxing Day; now that's the term I've actually heard.
00:08:52 <oerjan> apparently Boxing Day sometimes moves
00:09:02 <fizzie> Very messy, these Christmas-time holidays; Eastern Orthodox people have their Saint Stephen's Day on the 27th.
00:09:09 <fizzie> There should be an ISO standard or something.
00:09:31 <fizzie> Now I'll actually sleep and not just talk about it.
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02:51:33 <bsmntbombdood> i want a scroll wheel with inertia
02:53:12 <oklopol> virtual or phyzical
03:01:51 <Warrigal> Inertia is a property of matter.
03:02:14 <Warrigal> So only simulated inertia would be anything notable.
03:02:25 <Warrigal> So the real question is this: virtual or physical?
03:12:08 <CakeProphet> ...io is so messed up.
03:12:17 <CakeProphet> specifically operator presidence
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03:17:29 <Sgeo> Did something happen here that involves me?
03:18:00 <CakeProphet> yes.
03:18:10 <Warrigal> No.
03:18:27 <Warrigal> Something happened here that involves the thing I mentioned in #inanity.
03:19:24 <Sgeo> Which is relevent to me because I'm misspelling things?
03:19:54 <bsmntbombdood> ...physical
03:20:11 * Sgeo goes back to watching QI
03:20:42 <Warrigal> Not really.
03:25:29 <Sgeo> <3 QI
03:29:10 <CakeProphet> Warrigal: you know... I don't think there's any other word to describe the action of pandiculating
03:31:07 <Sgeo> pandiculating?
03:33:31 <CakeProphet> anyone up for some serious language design?
03:33:33 <Warrigal> I think "stretching" is similar.
03:33:39 <Warrigal> Programming language, you mean?
03:33:51 <CakeProphet> it's the weird floppy gestures one makes when stretching and yawning
03:34:20 <CakeProphet> Well, I suppose we could design other types of languages as well. Let's design esperanto... oh wait.
03:35:56 <CakeProphet> Anyone have a bit of IRC bot code I could steal and manipulate to my own liking?
03:36:06 <Warrigal> "Esperanto has already been designed."
03:36:22 <Warrigal> Use Lambdabot.
03:36:52 <CakeProphet> I have a feeling I'll mess up trying to use Haskell successfully
03:37:27 <Warrigal> Oh.
03:37:57 <CakeProphet> though the features lambdabot has are impressive.
03:38:49 <CakeProphet> I kind of want to make a text-based MMO through IRC using a bot.
03:39:21 <CakeProphet> send commands as PMs and it gives you output.
03:41:10 <Sgeo> <3QI
03:41:13 <Sgeo> QIQIQI
03:41:36 <CakeProphet> wat?
03:42:23 <Warrigal> Sgeo loves QI.
03:42:31 <Warrigal> I wonder what QI is.
03:46:18 <Sgeo> Quite Interesting
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03:49:35 <CakeProphet> I'd really prefer an IRC bot in Perl or Python or something.
04:09:32 * Warrigal ponders IRC bots written in Python
04:09:41 <bsmntbombdood> you mean likt BASMENT BOT?!?!
04:09:56 <Warrigal> bsmntbombdood, tell me when bsmnt_bot is the kind of thing you can download and then run.
04:10:21 <bsmntbombdood> when you write the code
04:10:33 <bsmntbombdood> because i've certainly lost interest
04:11:38 <Warrigal> Okay.
04:12:09 <Warrigal> I think I'll try to find a "suitable" Lisp-like programming language instead.
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04:14:33 <Sgeo> We need to make an esolang where |:-{) erases the hard drive
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04:47:41 <CakeProphet> :D
04:47:47 <CakeProphet> .py
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04:48:43 <CakeProphet> wooo
04:48:45 <CakeProphet> progress
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05:06:11 <lolbot> lol
05:08:39 <Warrigal> lol
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05:14:54 <CakeProphet> GregorR: word
05:15:08 <GregorR> Uhhh, I'm gonna go with "purple"
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05:23:34 <CakeProphet> .fortune
05:23:34 <lolbot> Fine day to work off excess energy. Steal something heavy.
05:24:07 <CakeProphet> .py print "lol"
05:24:07 <lolbot> lol
05:24:14 <CakeProphet> .io "test" println
05:24:26 <CakeProphet> -gasp-
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05:26:27 <CakeProphet> eh... oh well
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05:34:46 <bsmntbombdood> i haven't coded for alike a year
05:35:21 <bsmntbombdood> losin it
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05:48:38 <CakeProphet> bsmntbombdood: :((
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05:48:40 <CakeProphet> why not?
05:48:43 <CakeProphet> .fortune
05:48:43 <lolbot> Political speeches are like steer horns. A point here, a point there,
05:48:46 <bsmntbombdood> depresshuns
05:49:00 <CakeProphet> .fortune
05:49:00 <lolbot> To downgrade the human mind is bad theology.
05:49:12 <CakeProphet> ...fortune is so addictive.
05:50:19 <CakeProphet> .fortune
05:50:20 <lolbot> I don't even butter my bread. I consider that cooking.
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05:52:38 <CakeProphet> .fortune
05:52:39 <lolbot> All heiresses are beautiful. -- John Dryden
05:52:45 <CakeProphet> There we go
05:53:23 <CakeProphet> It was only reading the first line (which was probably a good thing - one man's feature is another man's bug)
05:58:46 <bsmntbombdood> :(
05:59:09 <CakeProphet> bsmntbombdood: here's a fortune to cheer you up
05:59:11 <CakeProphet> .fortune
05:59:12 <lolbot> Oh, that sound of male ego. You travel halfway across the galaxy and it's still the same song. -- Eve McHuron, "Mudd's Women", stardate 1330.1
05:59:32 <bsmntbombdood> omg sexist
05:59:59 <CakeProphet> perhaps another?
06:00:01 <CakeProphet> .fortune
06:00:01 <lolbot> YOW!! The land of the rising SONY!!
06:00:23 <CakeProphet> ........has anyone noticed that 50% of fortune outputs are nonsense?
06:00:24 <Sgeo> g'night all
06:00:29 <CakeProphet> night
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07:10:32 <CakeProphet> lolbot: en jp "The cake is a lie"?
07:10:32 <lolbot> CakeProphet: The en to jp translation failed, sorry!
07:10:44 <CakeProphet> lolbot: en ne "The cake is a lie"?
07:10:44 <lolbot> CakeProphet: The en to ne translation failed, sorry!
07:10:58 <CakeProphet> lolbot: en de "The cake is a lie"?
07:10:59 <lolbot> CakeProphet: "Der Kuchen ist eine Lüge" (en to de, translate.google.com)
07:11:01 <CakeProphet> ...
07:52:00 <psygnisfive> augurbot: en jp "the cake is a lie"?
07:52:08 <psygnisfive> augur: "keki wa uso da" (en to de, augurbot)
07:52:40 <psygnisfive> oh. i keep forgetting i dont use augur as my nick here
07:52:40 <psygnisfive> :(
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11:21:41 <Mony> plap
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12:36:39 <ehird> "The product is GPLed, minor drawback, but at least its not completely proprieatary."
12:36:46 <ehird> I love subversive licenseflames.
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12:48:36 <psygnisfive> .. what?
12:49:06 <ehird> I don't have to make sense.
12:49:09 <ehird> It's not required of me.
12:49:22 <ehird> ... or IS IT
13:05:11 <fizzie> To quote one of those ubiquitous motivational posters: http://zem.fi/~fis/sense.jpg
13:05:50 <Slereah_> http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1934/s5001329rv5.jpg
13:05:54 <Slereah_> HAVE MORE SENSE
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14:39:26 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/H0jqak48.html
14:53:31 <ehird> oklopol!
14:53:31 <ehird> 14:53 ehird: > fix (("o" :) . map ("ok" ++))
14:53:32 <ehird> 14:53 lambdabot: ["o","oko","okoko","okokoko","okokokoko","okokokokoko","okokokokokoko","oko...
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15:26:48 <oklopol> ehird: yyyes?
15:26:56 <ehird> 14:53 ehird: 14:53 ehird: > fix (("o" :) . map ("ok" ++))
15:26:56 <ehird> 14:53 ehird: 14:53 lambdabot: ["o","oko","okoko","okokoko","okokokoko","okokokokoko","okokokokokoko","oko...
15:27:06 <ehird> i also generalized that into "wat"
15:27:15 <ehird> wat f g = fix (f . map g)
15:27:29 <ehird> whose type is: ([b] -> [a]) -> (a -> b) -> [a]
15:27:33 <ehird> it comes out of nowhere
15:27:34 <ehird> :D
15:28:47 <oklopol> that does seem a bit curious
15:29:00 <ehird> it is
15:29:10 <ehird> oko = wat ("o":) ("ok"++)
15:32:07 <oklopol> yay i has 6 liters of energy drinkings
15:33:36 <cruce> and smartdrugs?
15:33:41 <oklopol> anyway infinite sequences are pretty weird. they still often look like magic to me
15:34:15 <oklopol> like that one, it's fixing an "ok" prefix to... err.. nothing.
15:34:46 <oklopol> cruce: what are smartdrugs
15:35:08 <Slereah_> Gary Gum
15:36:24 <ehird> Hi cruce.
15:37:05 <ehird> oklopol: It's putting "ok" in front of all elements of the full expression, then adding "o" to the front.
15:37:08 <ehird> :DDDD
15:37:49 <oklopol> it would be a whole lot less confusing if i didn't understand it
15:37:58 <ehird> lol
15:38:55 <oklopol> i do understand what it means, and how lazy evaluation automatically makes it work, but it's still magic
15:39:46 <ehird> oklopol: it's actually "o" : ("ok" ++ ("o" : ("ok" ..
15:39:50 <ehird> which makes it simple to understand
15:39:56 <ehird> err
15:39:57 <ehird> it's
15:40:07 <ehird> "o" : (map ("ok" ++) ("o" : (map ("ok" ++) ...
15:40:19 <fizzie> The one I used -- let oko = "o":[o++"ko"|o <- oko] in oko -- also sounds silly when read out in English. "oko is the list that starts with an "o", then contains all elements of oko with "ko" added to the end."
15:40:22 <oklopol> it's simple to understand as a fixed point too
15:40:38 <ehird> fizzie: yes
15:41:27 <oklopol> that's not the point, it's just so highlevel and awesome that it makes me lick my elbows.
15:41:47 <ehird> haskell's great
15:41:55 <fizzie> You can lick your elbows? I've never managed that.
15:42:36 <oklopol> you must be a noob :o
15:42:44 <fizzie> Maybe one side of an elbow.
15:42:51 <fizzie> I'm not sure which region counts.
15:43:13 * oklopol just hurt his arm by stretching it too much :<
15:43:50 <oklopol> it should be illegal to talk about that kind of stuff
15:44:01 <oklopol> too dangerous
15:45:59 <oklopol> rwh and sicp on the way from amazon
15:46:14 <oklopol> soon i have all the classics
15:46:22 <oklopol> all that's left is the actual reading, but that's trivial
15:46:30 <ehird> oklopol: rwh is not a classic
15:46:31 <ehird> it's recent
15:46:32 <oklopol> sicp is only 3.5/5 on amazon
15:46:38 <oklopol> ehird: yes i wasn't referring to that
15:46:41 <oklopol> sicp and aocp
15:46:53 <fizzie> That's usually TAOCP, for some reason.
15:47:02 <ehird> tao child porn
15:47:10 <oklopol> the art of child porn
15:47:28 <ehird> yes
15:48:03 <oklopol> i would so buy that
15:48:03 <ehird> knuth is a filthy kiddie-fiddler
15:48:11 <ehird> this is the fbi
15:48:38 <oklopol> so what's the deal with taocps after the first three?
15:48:49 <oklopol> is number four divided in chapters that are separate books or something?
15:48:57 <fizzie> I think TAOCP and SICP are the most classic-y of the books I have, too. And maybe the Schneier's "cryptography classics" set: applied cryptography, secrets and lies, and practical cryptography.
15:49:05 <oklopol> i was too lazy to look into it, but looked like there were many fours
15:49:11 <ehird> oklopol: #4 is not done yet
15:49:16 <ehird> knuth keeps releasing little niblets of it
15:49:21 <oklopol> yeah
15:49:30 <ehird> it will be a ufll one when its down
15:49:30 <oklopol> but they are like 1500 pages each
15:49:30 <ehird> done
15:49:31 <ehird> full
15:49:37 <ehird> oklopol: knuth is crazy-fuck
15:49:51 <oklopol> yes :)
15:50:02 <ehird> ah, wait
15:50:09 <ehird> it's split into 4 parts
15:50:09 <ehird> a-d
15:50:12 <fizzie> Volume 4 will be in separate books when it's ready, yes.
15:50:16 <ehird> 5 Outline of Volume 4A Enumeration and Backtracking
15:50:17 <ehird> 6 Outline of Volume 4B Graph and Network Algorithms
15:50:18 <ehird> 7 Outline of Volumes 4C and 4D Optimization and Recursion
15:50:34 <ehird> I like how it takes 8 books to get to recursion
15:50:37 <oklopol> :D
15:50:49 <oklopol> umm.
15:50:54 <fizzie> Hopefully Knuth won't do the dying thing before it's ready; I think authors have that sort of habits.
15:50:56 <oklopol> the four i saw was about bit-fiddling
15:51:09 <ehird> fizzie: he's pretty old.
15:51:14 <oklopol> yeah and also isn't he planning stuff even after 4?
15:51:19 <fizzie> 7.1.3 - Bitwise tricks and techniques (122 pp) -- is in 4A
15:51:25 <oklopol> ah okay.
15:51:55 <oklopol> for some reason that's what amazon.com suggested to me, or at least i saw that somewhere
15:52:00 <ehird> he wants like 20 volumes
15:52:16 <oklopol> hehe
15:52:20 <fizzie> The MMIX rewrites of 1-3 is also still forthcoming, I guess.
15:52:42 <oklopol> first a book, then a book for each chapter, then multiple books for one chapter, chapter 20 will probably be a whole library
15:52:50 <fizzie> I guess I need to move work -> home now; be back in half an hour or so.
15:52:57 <oklopol> "miscellaneous algorithms"
15:53:12 <oklopol> bye
15:53:24 <oklopol> mmix rewrites?
15:53:26 <oklopol> hmm.
15:54:23 <oklopol> ah the current one is mic
15:54:24 <oklopol> *mix
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16:33:26 <ehird> Hi ais523
16:33:44 <ais523> Hi ehird, with a capital H!
16:33:49 <ehird> Ehird?
16:34:53 <ais523> that would be eHird, presumably
16:34:58 <ehird> err, duh
16:34:58 <ehird> XD
16:36:22 <Slereah_> ehird is dum
16:37:27 <ehird> 16:37 <Bouncer> Error(405): #ESO You can't join that many channels
16:37:29 <ehird> Oh my.
16:38:42 <ais523> wow, you're in a lot of channels...
16:39:55 * ehird bumps up the font size on his terminal and his eyes thank him
16:40:52 <ehird> IRC too.
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16:43:27 <oklopol> i was in 20 channels on freenode and quakenet, but i recently culled almost all of them, because vista couldn't handle that many windows :-)
17:13:59 <AnMaster> hi ais523
17:14:03 <ais523> hi
17:14:32 <ais523> AnMaster: I got gcc-bf working to the extent that it can compile some very simple programs
17:14:38 <ais523> although I haven't worked up to hello world yet
17:14:43 <ais523> I have to largely avoid the standard library still
17:15:56 <AnMaster> ais523, when I worked on adding NCRS support for cfunge I found that it interacts badly with TERM (thus I haven't pushed the changes yet, since I'm working on adding stuff to co-ordinate init/teardown between those fingerprints), however maybe for IFFI you should add a note somewhere that if someone links a C program as well they should be careful if they plan to use ncurses
17:16:15 <ais523> maybe I'll let them figure that out for themself
17:16:24 <ais523> ick doesn't exactly count as stable
17:17:17 <AnMaster> ais523, if stuff mess up with ncurses it will probably lead to memory corruption and/or segfault either on exit (some cleanup is done with atexit() in TERM) or at any other random point
17:17:41 <ais523> oh, it's almost certainly possible to get ick to segfault, although I don't know a specific program that does so
17:19:25 <AnMaster> mhm
17:50:31 <ehird> #reddit is a shit channel.
17:50:31 <ehird> 17:49 <donbueno> lol can u copy shit to a cd in dos lol?
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17:50:44 <ais523> it's an interesting question, actually
17:50:53 <ais523> I don't know if there's any CD-writing software for DOS
17:50:59 <ais523> given the existence of FreeDOS, I guess so
17:51:10 <ais523> (there's definitely MSCDEX, and probably other programs, to /read/ CDs in DOS0
17:51:14 <ais523> s/0$/)/
17:53:14 -!- ehird has set topic: lol can u copy shit to a cd in dos lol?.
17:53:21 <ehird> (don't put the log link in there, it wasn't a few seconds ago)
18:07:37 <AnMaster> afk, not feeling well, think I have a cold
18:13:49 <Badger> ehird: lol lol?
18:13:57 <ehird> lol lol lol
18:14:03 <ehird> hi Badger.
18:14:05 <ehird> you new here?
18:16:57 <Badger> I suspect so
18:18:54 <ais523> welcome, then
18:18:58 <ais523> what brings you here?
18:19:11 <ehird> he's in #haskell
18:19:16 <ehird> I mentioned #esoteric sometime today I think
18:19:19 <ais523> hmm... ah, maybe
18:19:23 <ais523> but Haskell isn't an esolang
18:19:31 <ehird> arguable
18:19:37 <ehird> I mean I mentioned #esoteric in #haskell
18:19:39 <ais523> well, it has the good bits of esoness, but not the bad bits
18:21:59 <Badger> oh dear.
18:22:13 * Badger is forced to look up esotericism.
18:22:35 <Badger> heh
18:22:36 <Badger> esoteric: confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle; "a compilation of esoteric philosophical theories"
18:22:48 <oklopol> look up esoteric programming
18:22:57 <ehird> Badger: so, uh, what brought you hear? :P
18:22:59 <ehird> *here
18:23:01 <Badger> ehird: you
18:23:06 <ehird> neat. :D
18:23:14 <ehird> (We're purveyors of silly programming languages.)
18:23:20 <ehird> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/)
18:23:21 <ais523> well, probably it's worth giving a link to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
18:23:21 <oklopol> ehird brings everyone here
18:23:29 <Badger> mostly because you mentioned brainfuck
18:23:32 <ehird> oklopol: I brought AnMaster her forchrissakes
18:23:33 <oklopol> and ends up ignoring them when they become regulars
18:23:33 <ais523> so you can see what sort of things we do
18:23:35 <ehird> and Deewiant
18:23:37 <ehird> *here
18:23:37 <Badger> which I am horrifiedly amued by
18:23:40 <Badger> *amused
18:23:41 <ais523> brainfuck is one of the best-known esolangs
18:23:52 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!Hello, world!
18:23:52 <fungot> Hello, world!
18:23:58 <Badger> the fact that it works is, er
18:24:01 <Badger> well
18:24:03 * Badger shudders.
18:24:03 <ehird> I kicked fizzie back into talking.
18:24:08 <ais523> it's pretty amazing what can be Turing-complete
18:24:09 <ehird> Badger: fungot is written in befunge
18:24:09 <fungot> ehird: an overdue payment order is defined in this
18:24:12 <ehird> and interprets brainfuck.
18:24:19 <ehird> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
18:24:19 <fungot> ehird: property should the proposer shall receive a commission. at the
18:24:24 <ais523> wait, is fungot spouting random stuff from Agora again?
18:24:25 <fungot> ais523: other rules which would permit otherwise.
18:24:27 <ehird> ais523: yeah
18:24:30 <ehird> ^style
18:24:30 <fungot> Available: agora* alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
18:25:00 <oklopol> ehird: wanna hear something weird?
18:25:15 <Badger> hah @ wikipedia:
18:25:16 <Badger> Internet community
18:25:16 <Badger> There is a small but thriving community on the Internet of hobbyists who program in and design esoteric programming languages.
18:25:27 <ais523> well, you found us
18:25:28 <oklopol> we're one of those communities
18:25:40 * oklopol assumes there are others without intersection
18:25:56 <Badger> oh my
18:25:58 <Badger> lolcode.
18:26:27 <oklopol> we officially hate lolcode
18:26:47 <Badger> Whitespace only considers the layout of whitespace and ignores all non-whitespace characters.
18:26:51 <Badger> Genius.
18:27:21 <oklopol> heh, yes. but it's not that hard to come up with interesting syntax-based esolangs
18:27:28 <oklopol> it's much harder to get interesting semantics
18:27:29 <ais523> I think most of the people here hate lolcode, it doesn't bring anything interesting to the world of programming except the syntax
18:27:41 <ais523> oklopol: agreed
18:28:08 <oklopol> i usually try to have pretty much everything unique and new in my languages
18:28:09 <fizzie> I blame my recent talking spree on fungot, actually.
18:28:09 <fungot> fizzie: a contest must have a vizier and the procedure is not
18:28:28 <oklopol> this is one of the rare places where reinventing a weird wheel is okay
18:28:43 <Badger> are all these languages t-complete
18:28:52 <oklopol> Badger: not all of them, but most are i think
18:29:02 <oklopol> ais523 has some interesting non-tc ones
18:30:00 <oklopol> anyway, to continue after "in my languages", that's why i've officially finished like 3 languages
18:30:11 <ais523> I should keep going with Unassignable
18:30:18 <Badger> oklopol: what're they called?
18:30:21 <ais523> get it even higher-level and more usable despite blatantly non-TC
18:30:28 <ehird> Badger: oklotalk-- and i forget the rest
18:30:31 <ehird> atm he's working on noprob
18:30:34 <oklopol> Badger: i'm a bit afraid of wikis, you can't really find them.
18:30:35 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BackFlip is the interesting non-TC one of mine, though
18:30:48 <oklopol> oklotalk-- is ready, nopol2 is ready, and graphica is ready
18:31:13 <oklopol> all have an implementation too, none are officially free, and none are even public, you'd have to ask me directly
18:31:41 <Badger> ah
18:32:05 <oklopol> graphica is a language for creating graphs in a fairly weird way
18:32:47 <Badger> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare_(programming_language)#Example_code
18:32:48 <Badger> :)
18:33:11 <oklopol> oklotalk-- isn't all that interesting, it's a subset of oklotalk, which is a pretty massive language i'm still extending
18:33:24 <oklopol> nopol2 is... weird.
18:33:26 <Badger> massive, you say
18:33:33 <Badger> how so?
18:33:45 <oklopol> it has a lot of stuff, because i've been working on it for years
18:33:48 <ehird> Badger: it's more consice than APL often
18:33:52 <ehird> and is completely obscure
18:34:36 <ais523> oklopol: hmm... my pretty massive language Overload became Underload when it was trimmed down to a tarpit
18:34:42 <ais523> and that's probably my most successful esolang of all
18:35:20 <oklopol> every string is a legal program, pretty concise, scoping is very flexible, everything is dynamic, you can change syntax quite easily, etc, all this in a setting about as safe for the programmer as programming in c macros
18:36:24 <oklopol> fun details, features even ehird probably doesn't know: you can do { raw N -> out N } (5+7) to print "5 + 7"
18:36:40 <ehird> ha
18:36:46 <oklopol> lazy evaluation where there are no side-effects
18:36:49 <ais523> oklopol: how hard is it to change that to output in reverse-Polish?
18:36:50 <oklopol> which is dynamically checked :)
18:37:01 <ehird> oklopol: you should generalize it so that all functions get expressions
18:37:04 <oklopol> ais523: parsing is done from within the language using state lists
18:37:05 <ehird> and they evaluate by default
18:37:06 <ehird> that is
18:37:09 <oklopol> which are kinda like regexes.
18:37:10 <ehird> { N -> out N } (1+1)
18:37:12 <ehird> outputs 2
18:37:12 <ehird> but
18:37:17 <ehird> { N -> out (code N) } (1+1)
18:37:22 <ehird> outputs 1+1
18:37:22 <ehird> well
18:37:24 <ehird> s/code/ast/
18:37:32 <oklopol> but they are more general, and can also be used for flow control, in a manner that has nothing to do with regexes
18:37:42 <oklopol> basically you can use the fsm directly
18:37:42 <ehird> oklopol: that basically works in that all primitives evaluate their expressions
18:37:43 <ehird> apart from code
18:37:46 <ehird> and a few others
18:37:57 <ehird> and arguments are passed as their context and their AST
18:38:07 <ehird> then you can do e.g.
18:38:13 <ehird> if true, 1, 2
18:38:14 <ehird> as a regular function
18:38:15 <ehird> :D
18:38:23 <ehird> where the latter two are only evaluated if the first
18:38:24 <oklopol> ehird: that's essentially what happens
18:38:45 <ehird> i'm gonna write a language like that
18:38:47 <ehird> you could do insane shit
18:38:48 <ehird> like
18:38:52 <oklopol> a code object is almost a normal object except given the message #raw it returns its code.
18:38:56 <ehird> you could write set("name",value)
18:39:04 <ehird> because you'd get the context of name and value
18:39:05 <oklopol> everything that doesn't have a side-effect is simply a code object
18:39:09 <ehird> you could also write
18:39:21 <ehird> appendcode("name",2+2)
18:39:30 <ehird> and it'd append "2+2" to the string in name
18:39:31 <oklopol> if is a regular function, you are just reinventing oklotalk here :P
18:39:32 <ehird> XD
18:39:47 <oklopol> hmm
18:40:31 <ehird> you'd write it like
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18:41:04 <ehird> { Name ValExpr -> vars(context(ValExpr))[Name] += tostring(ast(ValExpr)) }
18:41:07 <ehird> or w/e
18:41:11 <oklopol> { N -> out (code N) } (1+1) <<< would be { N -> out (#code N) } (1+1) in oklotalk
18:41:21 <oklopol> # is used for "reserved" atoms
18:41:57 <ehird> what about
18:41:59 <ehird> { Name ValExpr -> vars(context(ValExpr))[Name] += tostring(ast(ValExpr)) }
18:42:01 <ehird> where you can do
18:42:11 <ehird> bar="hello";foo("bar",2+2);out(bar)
18:42:12 <ehird> and it prints
18:42:15 <ehird> hello2 + 2
18:42:19 <oklopol> meaning if you make, for instance, a pointer object, you can have #set and #get for changing what's pointed to, and just pipe all other params to the object pointed
18:42:31 <oklopol> (wrapping like this is quite central to oklotalk)
18:42:35 <oklopol> hmm
18:42:58 <Badger> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list
18:43:00 <Badger> good grief.
18:43:07 <ehird> Badger: :)
18:43:39 * Badger wonders how many are usable in the way that non-esoteric ones are.
18:43:46 <Badger> At least, without taking several hours about it.
18:43:54 <oklopol> well fizzie coded fungot in a few hours
18:43:55 <fungot> oklopol: the recordkeepor of the courts. a rule assigns any duties or powers. this rule
18:44:02 <oklopol> (no need to correct me if i'm wrong)
18:44:24 <Badger> I mean
18:44:36 <Badger> without the programmer needing to take several hours about it. :P
18:45:08 <ehird> none :D
18:45:18 <Badger> ah.
18:45:30 <Badger> now that is impressive
18:46:16 <oklopol> well assuming it was fizzie's first irc bot in befunge, i'd say it didn't take that long
18:46:29 <oklopol> i've made esolang programs in less time than a few hours
18:46:37 <oklopol> for instance ski in nopol took about 2 minutes
18:47:44 <ehird> oklopol: i thought of a ridiculous way to do that language
18:47:52 <ehird> write eval() so that it takes an expression
18:47:55 <ehird> and evaluates its ast
18:48:13 <ehird> as in
18:48:13 <oklopol> ooooooooo
18:48:15 <ehird> write eval in that language
18:48:24 <ehird> then make all the primitives use eval
18:48:30 <ehird> apart from ast/context
18:48:30 <ehird> etc
18:48:44 <ehird> then, translate eval into $impl_lang code
18:48:49 <ehird> and make it so you can modify eval
18:48:56 <ehird> and it evals eval with the previous eval
18:48:59 <ehird> to then eval with the current one
18:49:02 <ehird> => you can replace eval
18:50:17 <oklopol> you mean liek bootstrapping
18:50:26 <oklopol> i'm not sure i'm following you.
18:50:30 <oklopol> too many evals
18:50:32 <ehird> oklopol: essentially except not
18:50:34 <ehird> basically
18:50:37 <ehird> write eval so it does like
18:50:44 <ais523> ehird: stop inventing Feather
18:50:47 <ehird> ais523: it's not
18:50:49 <ehird> it's differen
18:50:49 <ehird> t
18:50:54 <ais523> well, it is different
18:51:00 <ehird> eval = { Expr -> Code = ast(Expr); ... }
18:51:03 <ehird> oklopol: so you can do like
18:51:04 <ais523> your method doesn't let you retroactively change what eval was at the start of the program
18:51:05 <ehird> eval(2+2)
18:51:09 <ehird> and it behaves identical to
18:51:10 <ehird> id(2+2)
18:51:11 <ehird> and then
18:51:13 <ehird> write the primitives in that lang
18:51:15 <ehird> that use eval()
18:51:19 <ehird> to force-evaluation-by-default
18:51:28 <ehird> then just do some bootstrapping with eval
18:51:38 <ehird> and you get configurable-evaluation-forced-by-default and eval acting like the identity function XD
18:53:09 <oklopol> heh. still not following :D
18:53:34 <oklopol> should probably start coding now
18:53:38 <ehird> oklopol: noooooo
18:53:41 <ehird> its easy to follow
18:53:41 <ehird> :{
18:53:42 <oklopol> :DDDDDDD
18:53:45 <oklopol> yeah probably.
18:53:47 <ehird> FOLLOW IT
18:54:12 <oklopol> so.
18:54:16 <oklopol> eval is id
18:54:20 <oklopol> so program evaluation is id
18:54:21 <ehird> not
18:54:23 <ehird> no
18:54:23 <oklopol> nothing happens
18:54:29 <oklopol> okay.
18:54:31 <oklopol> :D
18:54:33 <ehird> oklopol: but
18:54:36 <ehird> from a user's point of view
18:54:37 <ehird> in a REPL:
18:54:42 <ehird> > eval(2+2)
18:54:42 <ehird> 4
18:54:47 <ehird> > id(2+2)
18:54:47 <ehird> 4
18:54:55 <ehird> id is just { X -> X }
18:54:56 <ehird> but eval is
18:55:06 <ehird> { Expr -> Code = ast(Expr); DO EVALUATION OF AST HERE }
18:55:14 <ais523> ehird: is eval declared HoldFirst?
18:55:20 <ehird> and all the primitives use eval, so that it acts like a regular language by default
18:55:23 <ehird> but since you can then replace eval
18:55:28 <oklopol> so the idea is primitives can be given other ways to evaluate their parameters
18:55:28 <ehird> the by-default evaluation can be configured
18:55:31 <ehird> and eval acts like id
18:55:31 <ehird> :D
18:55:33 <ehird> oklopol: not just primitives
18:55:35 <ehird> every function
18:55:37 <ais523> ok, I deserve the swatter for that
18:55:39 <ehird> sigh this is trivial
18:55:44 <oklopol> yeah that's trivial then
18:55:45 <ehird> oklopol: you should be able to understand it :(
18:55:51 <ehird> but it's neat
18:55:59 <oklopol> i understand the idea, i didn't understand your explanation
18:56:07 <oklopol> i'm bad with IO, i'm only good with the processing.
18:56:26 <oklopol> and yeah that's oklotalk's idea
18:56:31 <oklopol> making stuff like that trivial to do
18:56:46 <oklopol> kinda like lisp only much, much hackier
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18:57:46 <ehird> oklopol: yeah but
18:57:47 <ehird> mine isn't a hack
18:57:49 <ehird> it bakes it right in
18:57:50 <ehird> :DD
18:58:23 <oklopol> sure
19:00:22 <oklopol> in oklotalk you'd make some kinda wrapper, cooleval = { ast Expr -> '.Expr('\:Expr) };
19:00:28 <oklopol> err. wait
19:00:44 <ehird> ...no
19:00:49 <ehird> thats not what i mean
19:00:51 <oklopol> in oklotalk you'd make some kinda wrapper, cooleval = { Evaler -> { ast Expr -> evalerExpr( Evaler\:Expr ) } };
19:01:37 <oklopol> one more attempt, cooleval = { Evaler -> { ast Expr -> (evaler Expr)( Evaler\:Expr ) } };
19:01:45 <ehird> nop
19:01:45 <ehird> e
19:02:05 <oklopol> yeah still one more error but it's readable
19:02:22 <oklopol> err no that's completely wrong
19:02:48 <oklopol> "'"'s are kinda essential so you recurse to the bottom
19:03:04 <oklopol> haven't written oklotalk in ages
19:05:16 <oklopol> cooleval = { Evaler -> { ast Expr -> (`(' Evaler) .Expr)( (' Evaler) \: Expr ) } }; <<< take evaluator and an ast, recursively evaluate the head, and call it with the rest, of course still needs something for actual nodes, but really i was just trying to demonstrate the idea
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19:05:45 <ehird> oklopol: noo othats not what it issss
19:05:55 <oklopol> really just that the ast can be read from the expression
19:06:00 <oklopol> ehird: okay. what's the difference
19:06:18 <ehird> its totally different
19:06:23 <ehird> youre just writin gan evaluator that takes an expression
19:06:24 <ehird> big deal
19:06:37 <oklopol> well you can just call that with your program
19:06:41 <ehird> no no no
19:06:44 <ehird> totally not the point
19:06:45 <ehird> at all
19:07:05 <oklopol> well tell me what the difference is
19:07:12 <oklopol> what can yours do mine can't
19:08:02 <ehird> its just
19:08:02 <ehird> nothing
19:08:04 <ehird> to do with it
19:08:05 <ehird> at all
19:08:10 <ehird> its a totally different concept
19:08:11 <ehird> entirely
19:08:14 <oklopol> i see, i see
19:08:16 <ehird> you're rambling about somethign entirely irrelevant
19:08:49 <oklopol> well okay, then i didn't understand what you mean, i thought you just meant you can make the evaluation function yourself
19:09:22 <ehird> oklopol: no
19:09:28 <ehird> I mean the actual eval that is used
19:09:34 <ehird> is both written in itself, and takes an expression
19:09:37 <ehird> and since it takes an expression
19:09:42 <ehird> and is used as the actual evaluator
19:09:49 <ehird> eval(EXPRESSION) and id(EXPRESSION)
19:09:53 <ehird> will always return the same thing
19:09:54 <ehird> which is funny
19:10:01 <ehird> also
19:10:05 <ehird> the fact taht the evaluating-primitives
19:10:09 <ehird> rer that is
19:10:12 <ehird> the primitives that use eval()
19:10:14 <ehird> are written in the lang itself
19:10:17 <ehird> by virtue of eval being
19:11:06 <Judofyr_> HELP! I'm bored!
19:11:09 <oklopol> i say it's the same thing, you're just looking from a different angle.
19:11:09 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr.
19:11:27 <oklopol> eval() and id() will return the same thing in mine too.
19:11:35 <ehird> yes but
19:11:38 <ehird> thats not the actual thing
19:11:41 <ehird> thats just a side-effect
19:11:44 <oklopol> if you make eval be (' Evaler)
19:11:51 <oklopol> whatever, you're talking to a behaviorist.
19:11:53 <ehird> "X is the same as Y because X shares a side effect with Y"
19:11:55 <ehird> ^ stupid
19:12:51 <oklopol> if X talks like a duck, then it's the same as Y.
19:13:10 <oklopol> we've had this conversation many times before.
19:13:24 <oklopol> we simply see the world differently
19:14:17 <ehird> oklopol: your programming language is the same as C++
19:14:22 <ehird> because they can both calculate things
19:14:36 <oklopol> very different
19:16:10 <ehird> oklopol: o rly
19:16:13 <oklopol> a language is usually a function from strings to semantics.
19:16:27 <ehird> s/your programming language is/our ideas are/
19:16:34 <ehird> s/C++/each other/
19:16:43 <ehird> s/calculate things/make an evaluator take an expression/
19:16:53 <fizzie> s/.*//
19:17:04 <oklopol> sometimes, for instance when you're talking about tcness or thinking about how to model a system in programming, you may think of a language as a function from ideas to semantics
19:17:13 <oklopol> and in these situations i do consider c++ just another language
19:17:24 <ehird> Deep.
19:17:44 <oklopol> not really, just seemed like you didn't know that
19:18:31 <ehird> that was sarcasm
19:19:06 <oklopol> i know
19:19:46 <oklopol> but anyway, this is pointless, you don't have the ability to understand other people's points of view, so you'll just mock me until i get mad.
19:20:33 <oklopol> you haven't actually shown what yours can do and mine can't; i can easily show what haskell can do and c++ can't
19:21:27 <oklopol> and i'm not saying they are the same thing, i'm just saying that's how oklotalk would make something that works exactly like yours
19:21:30 <oklopol> which you didn't contradict
19:21:31 <ehird> oklopol: it's like
19:21:38 <ehird> "Hey oklopol, a giraffe! *explains giraffes*"
19:21:48 <ehird> "ok, you can do that in my universe too, *shows a frog*"
19:21:55 <ehird> "But that has nothing in common except it's an animal"
19:22:02 <ehird> "What can your giraffe do that my frog can't eh??????"
19:22:11 <oklopol> you're an idiot
19:22:15 <ehird> thx
19:22:23 <oklopol> ^ see i got made
19:22:26 <oklopol> ...yes, made
19:23:04 <oklopol> anyway, you're just mocking me, this is pointless, i'm off to do some coding, if i can escape all this supressed rage ->
19:23:22 <ehird> :D
19:23:25 <oklopol> :D
19:23:52 <oklopol> (i probably can't, hope you're the stronger one and just shut up at some point.)
19:25:48 <oklopol> and yay. the documentation for the course project is gone. \o/
19:26:05 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:26:15 <oklopol> well maybe i'll just read the five million lines of boring java ui code. that's fun to read right?
19:27:45 <oklopol> nah, impossible. i should really stop talking to you.
19:28:48 <ais523> 5 million lines of Java?
19:29:13 <oklopol> some ui code the we were given because the course is not about ui's
19:29:58 <oklopol> so it wasn't really 5 million lines, more like a few hundred
19:31:06 <oklopol> that would be one helluva course, "read these five million lines of code and determine what the program does"
19:31:07 <oklopol> :D
19:31:27 <oklopol> it would of course consist of modules written in all kinds of sick languages
19:35:43 <oklopol> btw could someone put the log link in the topic? it looks so unprofessional
19:36:55 <ehird> no
19:38:04 <ais523> ehird: why not?
19:38:31 <ehird> :P
19:40:17 <ais523> that isn't a reason
19:40:29 -!- ais523 has set topic: http://normish.org/ircnomiclogs.txt.
19:40:33 * ais523 puts in the logs of the wrong channel
19:43:30 <oklopol> a log is a log
19:44:08 <ais523> it feels nicely #esoteric to link to the logs of a different channel
19:44:16 <oklopol> :D
19:44:28 <oklopol> maybe make #nomic link our log
19:44:45 <oklopol> assuming that's #nomic's log link, which i have no idea whether it is
19:44:52 <ehird> ##nomic
19:44:54 <ehird> #define MAX_SMALLINT ~0 >> 1
19:44:55 * ehird evil
19:44:55 <ehird> well
19:44:57 <ehird> with extra parens
19:46:37 * oklopol finds event-driven programming frustrating :|
19:46:46 <ais523> ehird: that fails due to pp arithmetic, IIRC
19:48:02 <ehird> ?
19:51:05 -!- jix has joined.
19:51:28 <ais523> ehird: arithmetic in #if commands is calculated in unsigned long
19:51:43 <ehird> who said I was using it in an #if, ey?
19:51:45 <ais523> therefore, people using #if on limits.h constants, which is common, will get a nasty surprise
19:51:51 <ais523> ehird: you might not be, whoever uses that header might
19:52:02 <ehird> tough shit, don't fuck with my internal symbols
19:52:09 <ais523> ah, ok, it's internal
19:52:09 <ehird> and you won't get a nasty surprise
19:52:11 <ehird> :P
19:52:13 <ais523> why not just use limits.h, then?
19:52:21 <ehird> because it's for a tagged-pointer setup
19:52:23 <ehird> thus the >>1
20:18:09 <Slereah_> Computer people.
20:18:23 <Slereah_> All my Firefox pages display text in bold
20:18:26 <Slereah_> What the fuck is that
20:19:22 <oklopol> o
20:26:05 -!- Mony has quit ("reboot").
20:31:18 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombgirl.
20:32:13 <oklopol> :o
20:32:20 <oklopol> bsmntbombgirl: sex change?
20:32:41 * bsmntbombgirl bats her eyes innocently
20:33:01 <oklopol> :=)
20:37:20 <ehird> hello bsmntbombdoodgirl
21:29:37 -!- Judofyr has quit.
21:59:15 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
22:11:18 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:15:02 <ehird> hey guyz
22:15:07 <ehird> what hash function shhould I use for a hashtable
22:15:09 <ehird> simpler is bette
22:15:09 <oerjan> <ehird> oklopol: rwh is not a classic
22:15:09 <ehird> r
22:15:12 <oerjan> _yet_
22:16:56 <oklopol> to take maximum-weight independent set of a tree, MWISofA = (?out >: ?in) <wX>{ !out +/ (?out >: ?in) ^; !in X + +/ ?out ^ } /: A
22:17:02 <oerjan> <ehird> 7 Outline of Volumes 4C and 4D Optimization and Recursion
22:17:18 <oerjan> i think 4D will have to be split up further. obviously.
22:17:56 <oklopol> i'm trying to make a syntactically J-like language based on explicit search from graphs and trees
22:17:58 <ehird> lol
22:18:02 <ehird> oklopol: that is pretty
22:18:06 <ehird> we should make a language sometime
22:18:33 <oklopol> /: is postorder reduce, kinda.
22:18:57 <oklopol> applies function first to children, then parent
22:19:59 <oklopol> you can get the evaluated children nodes with ^, the rest is just setting out and in, which represent the maximum weights of subtrees for the root being in or out of the independent set
22:20:51 <oklopol> the case "in" means the root is there, in which case you can't have children "in" and thus sum up the "out"s of children
22:21:53 <oklopol> in case "out" you sum the maximums of out and in (given by +/ (?out >: ?in) ^, read "sum maximums of out and in of each child")
22:22:01 <oerjan> <ehird> oklopol: I brought AnMaster her forchrissakes
22:22:06 <oklopol> and these are simply stored as extra information in each node
22:22:13 <oerjan> i'd have thought you'd stop after that one...
22:22:19 <ehird> lol
22:22:26 <ehird> he seemed ok in #bash >.<
22:22:29 <oklopol> ehird: maybe in the summer :<
22:22:31 <oklopol> i don't have the times
22:22:40 <ehird> oklopol: it can be a language based on non-time
22:22:55 <oklopol> non-time? sounds cool
22:23:09 <oklopol> can you have non-time errors too?
22:23:16 <oerjan> achronia
22:25:31 <oklopol> the tree is given by "A = w1 <w5 <w6> <w2>> <w8 <w8> <w3>>", i have no idea how the syntax works, but it seems to enable you to make arbitrary dags without naming nodes
22:26:24 <oklopol> (it's not sexps, although that might look like it)
22:27:27 <oklopol> oerjan: also that's a fun name
22:28:29 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
22:28:56 <oklopol> ehird: what are you hashing? you could jsut mod by prime
22:28:59 <oklopol> *just
22:29:27 <CakeProphet> Haskell is confusing
22:29:38 <ehird> CakeProphet: no it's not
22:29:39 <ehird> oklopol: strings
22:30:28 <Badger> It is confusing. :P
22:30:34 <ehird> 'tisn't!
22:30:36 <Badger> Less so than any of these languages
22:30:39 <Badger> but still
22:33:24 <oklopol> ehird: so?
22:33:31 <ehird> well kay
22:33:40 <ehird> buttttt
22:33:41 <ehird> why prime
22:33:49 <ehird> why not powahz of 2
22:34:01 <oklopol> ehird: so the result depends on the whole content
22:34:07 <oklopol> and not just the units
22:34:07 <ehird> ok but
22:34:17 <ehird> I don't; really want to calculate a new bigger prime
22:34:20 <ehird> every time the hash table gets bigger
22:34:28 <ehird> because this is not a prime searcher :P
22:34:43 <ehird> i mean i guess i could keep a predefined list but ugh
22:34:59 <oklopol> yeah that's a common problem
22:35:08 <oklopol> you can just guess a number too...
22:35:45 <oklopol> as long as you don't use a number that's mod 0 whatever base you're using for your conversion
22:35:59 <oklopol> powahz of 2 are the worst possible idea, usually
22:36:25 <CakeProphet> what's wrong with this: http://pastebin.ca/1291784
22:36:29 <oerjan> powers of 3 might work?
22:36:56 <oklopol> might they not?
22:37:03 <ehird> CakeProphet: because
22:37:08 <ehird> main is IO ()
22:37:12 <ehird> and
22:37:13 <oerjan> except, at some point you are going to get repetition for long enough strings
22:37:14 <ehird> (,) is a tuple
22:37:15 <ehird> not a list
22:37:16 <ehird> and uh
22:37:20 <ehird> your code is just totally fucked up, okay
22:37:32 <ehird> i don't think you understand monads, types or lists
22:38:57 <oklopol> returning a tuple where an element is the result of recursion is generally a bad idea
22:39:12 <oklopol> but yeah what ehird said
22:39:30 <ehird> CakeProphet: get yourself an edumacation realworldhaskell.com or learnyouahaskell.com
22:39:32 <ehird> Io> ("hello worldab" sum) % 11
22:39:32 <ehird> ==> 2
22:39:34 <ehird> Io> ("hello worldabc" sum) % 11
22:39:34 <oerjan> CakeProphet: in general unless you are doing fancy stuff, IO goes only on the final result of a function, outside all other types
22:39:35 <ehird> ==> 2
22:39:36 <CakeProphet> ehird: no I don't.
22:39:38 <ehird> lol wat
22:39:40 <ehird> guess i need a bigger prime
22:39:42 <ehird> CakeProphet: ok, so learn them
22:39:46 <oerjan> *result type
22:39:48 <ehird> oerjan: i think the problem is more fundamental here
22:40:27 <oerjan> well, true
22:40:44 <oklopol> that's the difference between mathematicians and humans
22:40:54 <ehird> oklopol: what initial prime do yo u think I should use
22:40:59 <oklopol> us mathematicians start from the details
22:41:10 <oklopol> you humans just say "lol that's retarded"
22:41:18 <oklopol> ehird: 19
22:41:23 <ehird> why 19
22:41:32 <ehird> hey oklopol just give me a good list of primes to use :P
22:41:33 <oklopol> for a while now, 9 has been my number of zen
22:41:49 <oklopol> suddenly, one day, it changed to 90, then 81 and 89, and now it's 19
22:41:53 <ehird> ha i found a collision!!!!!!!
22:42:02 <ehird> Io> ("hello worldabcderdfgdfg" sum) % 19
22:42:02 <ehird> ==> 17
22:42:04 <ehird> Io> ("hello worldabcdz" sum) % 19
22:42:05 <ehird> ==> 17
22:42:07 <ehird> bitch
22:42:10 <ehird> ofc thats not surprising
22:42:12 <ehird> :P
22:42:16 <oklopol> Io>
22:42:17 <ehird> butttttt
22:42:23 <ehird> oklopol: http://iolanguage.com/
22:42:30 <ehird> 's nice and stuff
22:42:34 <oklopol> yeah i was wondering if it was that
22:42:46 <oklopol> i don't know anything about it
22:43:16 <oklopol> what's differential inheritance?
22:43:19 * oklopol wp's
22:43:26 <ehird> oklopol: its prototype based
22:43:31 <ehird> and it can have multiple prototypes
22:43:37 <ehird> and only the slots which differ from the parents are stored
22:43:47 <oerjan> <ehird> i don't think you understand monads, types or lists
22:43:53 <oerjan> also, operator precedence
22:43:56 -!- Mony has joined.
22:44:04 <ehird> oerjan: ALSO LIFE
22:44:05 <ehird> :O
22:44:15 <oklopol> ehird: right, okay
22:44:28 <ehird> oklopol: it has become() like smalltalk
22:44:32 <ehird> (makes one object literally become another)
22:44:36 <ehird> unfortunately 3 become(4) doesn't work :P
22:44:39 <oklopol> yup
22:45:08 <oklopol> 4 = 3 but (value + 1)
22:45:12 <CakeProphet> I've been trying to get Haskell forever but it is not happening with what I'm reading.
22:45:16 <oklopol> in a scripting language of mine
22:45:25 <ehird> CakeProphet: what book
22:45:47 <ehird> i think your silence identifies our problem
22:46:12 <oklopol> he's probably just reading his own code
22:46:14 <CakeProphet> ...what?
22:46:22 <ehird> CakeProphet: what haskell book are you reading
22:46:42 <oerjan> <ais523> ok, I deserve the swatter for that
22:46:51 * oerjan is happy to oblige -----###
22:47:03 <CakeProphet> The Internet
22:47:03 <CakeProphet> not any specific book
22:47:11 <ehird> CakeProphet:
22:47:14 <ehird> http://realworldhaskell.com/
22:47:18 <ehird> http://learnyouahaskell.com/
22:47:19 <ehird> err
22:47:22 <ehird> http://learnyouahaskellforgreatgood.com/
22:47:25 <ehird> pick both
22:47:30 <ehird> err
22:47:31 <ehird> http://learnyouahaskell.com/
22:47:33 <ehird> was right the first time
22:47:40 <oerjan> CakeProphet: i recall it is generally agreed that there is a plethora of really _lousy_ monad tutorials out there
22:48:02 <ehird> CakeProphet: you really need those books
22:48:06 <ehird> start from scratch
22:48:14 <oerjan> because every other haskell learner decides to write one after it clicks for them
22:48:17 <ehird> it'll be sweet. I promise
22:48:25 <ehird> oerjan: i have as of yet resisted that urge
22:48:33 <ehird> although I still have the problem of thinking I can explain monads -perfectly-
22:48:39 <Asztal> me too :(
22:48:43 <oerjan> me too, although that may be only my fundamental laziness :D
22:48:49 <ehird> when people start explaining it another way in #haskell i'm like
22:48:51 <ehird> SHUT UP SHUT UP
22:48:53 <ehird> LET ME EXPLAIN IT
22:48:54 * oklopol wants to write a monad tutorial that understands the whole concept entirely wrong and then advertise it everywhere
22:48:57 <ehird> YOU'RE BEING CONFUSING
22:49:02 <oerjan> <- lazier than haskell
22:49:08 <ehird> oerjan: unpossible!
22:49:17 <CakeProphet> the one on Wikibooks and this: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Hitchhikers_guide_to_Haskell
22:49:17 <CakeProphet> at the moment
22:50:50 <oklopol> oerjan: want to name another language of mine?
22:51:09 <oerjan> ehird: i often don't do things _even_ when required
22:51:18 <ehird> CakeProphet: right
22:51:20 <ehird> listen
22:51:22 <ehird> http://realworldhaskell.com/
22:51:25 <ehird> http://learnyouahaskell.com/
22:51:26 <ehird> read both
22:51:28 <ehird> I say start with learn you
22:51:31 <ehird> to grasp the basics and the idea
22:51:35 <ehird> then move on to RWH to write programs
22:51:43 <oklopol> creating graphs (possibly lazily) and searching nodes from them using explicitly given traversals
22:51:45 <ehird> it *will* click
22:51:49 <ehird> it's a matter of unlearning
22:51:54 <oerjan> oklopol: graversal
22:52:06 <oklopol> i like the grave there
22:52:18 <oklopol> although i might prefer graversed
22:52:25 <oerjan> graverse
22:52:31 <oklopol> hmm
22:52:36 <oklopol> yeah that's pretty nice
22:53:03 <oklopol> it has traverse, graph, grave and verse, which gives a songy feel to it
22:53:30 <oklopol> graves are nice because the syntax will probably make you dig one for yourself
22:53:40 <oerjan> obviously.
22:54:49 <oklopol> okay not really readings ->>>->>->
22:54:53 <oklopol> ...
22:54:54 <oklopol> *now
22:54:55 <oklopol> ->
22:55:08 <CakeProphet> I'm getting ridiculous IRC lag
22:55:08 <CakeProphet> I get nothing and then all of a sudden... PAGE OF CHATTING
22:55:12 * oerjan watches oklopol slip on the freud
22:55:34 <ehird> "slip"
22:55:36 <ehird> on the "freud"
22:56:32 <oerjan> ehird: those apostrophes are completely penis
22:56:41 <ehird> totally
22:57:00 <oerjan> i mean quotation marks
22:57:04 <oerjan> another slip there
22:57:26 <ehird> "another"
22:57:33 <ehird> "slip"
22:57:34 <ehird> "there"
22:57:35 <ehird> " "
22:57:37 <ehird> " "
22:57:39 <ehird> " "
22:57:40 <oerjan> my ping of CakeProphet hasn't come back
22:57:42 <ehird> (that's the invisible space)
22:57:57 <oerjan> "invisible"
22:58:01 <Asztal> "\n"
22:58:07 <oerjan> "\""
22:58:31 <ehird> "\"\\\"...
22:58:36 <ehird> stakk overfluw
22:58:41 <ehird> oops
22:58:43 <ehird> freudian slip
22:58:45 <oerjan> fix show
22:59:04 <Asztal> I prefer fix error
22:59:21 <Asztal> though that one is pretty awesome
22:59:35 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
23:03:42 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
23:05:47 <oerjan> ^ul ((ping )S:^):^
23:05:47 <fungot> ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ...too much output!
23:06:15 <Slereah_> ^ul ((...too much output! )S:^):^
23:06:15 <fungot> ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...t ...too much output!
23:06:30 <Slereah_> STOP STUTTERING
23:07:40 <oerjan> ^ul ((ping )(pong )):^!S(~:^~!:Sa~^*a*~:^):^
23:07:40 <fungot> ping pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ping pong pong ping pong ping pong pong ...too much output!
23:07:54 <oerjan> hm that's not right
23:08:25 <oerjan> ^ul ((ping )(pong )):^!S(~:^:S*a~^*a*~:^):^
23:08:25 <fungot> ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping pong ping ...too much output!
23:08:45 <oerjan> ^ul ((ping )(pong )):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
23:08:46 <fungot> ping pong pong ping pong ping ping pong pong ping ping pong ping pong pong ping pong ping ping pong ping pong pong ping ping pong pong ping pong ping ping pong pong ping ping pong ping pong pong ping ping pong pong ping pong ping ping pong ping pong pong ping pong ping ping pong pong ping ping pong ping pong pong ping pong ...too much output!
23:09:30 <oerjan> +ul ((...too much output! )S:^):^
23:09:31 <thutubot> ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output! ...too much output!
23:09:38 <ehird> +ul (:aSS):aSS
23:09:38 <thutubot> (:aSS):aSS
23:09:43 <ehird> now to iterateify it
23:10:16 <Slereah_> TO iTERRIFY IT
23:10:17 <oerjan> iteratificatificate
23:10:21 <Slereah_> (A new Apple product)
23:10:26 <ehird> +ul ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S)^
23:10:27 <thutubot> ^ul
23:11:00 <ehird> +ul ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S):aSS
23:11:00 <thutubot> ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S)(+ul)(^ul)S( )S
23:11:08 <ehird> +ul ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S):^aS
23:11:08 <thutubot> ^ul (+ul)
23:11:18 <ehird> +ul ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S):^:aSS
23:11:18 <thutubot> ^ul (+ul)+ul
23:11:29 <ehird> +ul ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S):aSS
23:11:29 <thutubot> ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S)(+ul)(^ul)S( )S
23:11:33 <ehird> +ul ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S):aS
23:11:33 <thutubot> ((+ul)(^ul)S( )S)
23:11:40 <bsmntbombgirl> stfu
23:11:48 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: no.
23:12:22 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):^~
23:12:26 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S~( )S
23:12:26 <thutubot> ^ul
23:12:32 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S~( )SaS
23:12:33 <thutubot> ^ul (+ul)
23:12:38 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaS
23:12:38 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)
23:12:42 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS
23:12:42 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul)
23:13:09 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS(:S( )SaSaS):aSS
23:13:09 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS):S( )SaSaS
23:13:14 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS(:S( )SaSaS):SaS
23:13:14 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS(:S( )SaSaS)
23:13:24 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):SaS):SaS
23:13:24 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS):SaS((:S( )SaSaS):SaS)
23:13:46 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)^
23:13:46 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS
23:13:51 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):aSS)^
23:13:51 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS):S( )SaSaS
23:13:56 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):SaS)^
23:13:56 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS(:S( )SaSaS)
23:14:10 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):SaS):^S
23:14:10 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS(:S( )SaSaS)(:S( )SaSaS):SaS
23:14:17 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S):^S
23:14:17 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS(:S( )SaSaS)S
23:14:29 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):^S):^S
23:14:30 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S{{ }}SaSaS {{:S{{ }}SaSaS}}{{{{:S{{ }}SaSaS}}:^S}} ...S out of stack!
23:14:33 <ehird> oerjan: wtf
23:14:37 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):S):^S
23:14:37 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS:S( )SaSaS
23:14:44 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):aS):^S
23:14:45 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS):S( )SaSaS
23:14:50 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):SaS):^S
23:14:51 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS(:S( )SaSaS)(:S( )SaSaS):SaS
23:15:08 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS):SaS):^aS
23:15:09 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS(:S( )SaSaS)((:S( )SaSaS):SaS)
23:15:14 <Slereah_> Don't sass me ehird
23:15:17 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)):^aS
23:15:17 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS)
23:15:20 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S):^aS
23:15:21 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)
23:15:32 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)(:^aS):^aS
23:15:37 <ehird> ...
23:15:42 <ehird> oh
23:15:45 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)(:^aS)^aS
23:15:48 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)(^aS)^aS
23:15:52 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)
23:15:54 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)S
23:15:58 <oerjan> +ul (hm?)S
23:15:58 <ehird> thutubot?
23:15:59 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul) ...too much memory used!
23:15:59 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S{{ }}SaSaS{{{{:S{{ }}SaSaS}}S}} ...a out of stack!
23:16:00 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul):S{{ }}SaSaS ...a out of stack!
23:16:00 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul)
23:16:00 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS)S
23:16:00 <thutubot> hm?
23:16:03 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)S
23:16:03 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS)S
23:16:09 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S):SaS
23:16:09 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS)S((:S( )SaSaS)S)
23:16:15 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S):aSS
23:16:15 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul)((:S( )SaSaS)S)(:S( )SaSaS)S
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23:16:35 <ehird> lolbot? Uh oh.
23:16:45 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)::SaSS
23:16:45 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS)S((:S( )SaSaS)S)(:S( )SaSaS)S
23:16:53 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )SaSaS((:S( )SaSaS)S)::S
23:16:54 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul)(:S( )SaSaS)S
23:17:03 <oerjan> .py print "test"
23:17:09 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )(:S( )SaSaS):^
23:17:10 <thutubot> ^ul:S( )SaSaS (:S( )SaSaS)( )
23:17:11 <oerjan> bah
23:17:19 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )(S( )SaSaS):^
23:17:19 <thutubot> ^ulS( )SaSaS ( )(^ul)
23:17:24 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S
23:17:25 <thutubot> ^ul
23:17:29 <oerjan> .help
23:17:36 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )(S)^
23:17:36 <thutubot> ^ul
23:17:50 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )(SS)^
23:17:50 <thutubot> ^ul ^ul
23:17:54 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )(SSS)^
23:17:54 <thutubot> ^ul ^ul+ul
23:18:01 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul)S( )(SS)^
23:18:01 <thutubot> ^ul +ul
23:18:09 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )(SS)^
23:18:09 <thutubot> ^ul ^ul
23:18:13 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )(S)^
23:18:13 <thutubot> ^ul
23:18:15 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )()^
23:18:15 <thutubot> ^ul
23:18:21 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S()^
23:18:21 <thutubot> ^ul
23:18:23 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S(S)^
23:18:23 <thutubot> ^ul ^ul
23:18:24 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S(SS)^
23:18:25 <thutubot> ^ul ^ul+ul
23:18:27 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S(aSaS)^
23:18:27 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul)(+ul)
23:18:33 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S(aSaS):^S
23:18:33 <thutubot> ^ul (aSaS)(^ul)+ul
23:18:42 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S(aSaS)S
23:18:42 <thutubot> ^ul aSaS
23:18:47 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S(aSaS)aS
23:18:47 <thutubot> ^ul (aSaS)
23:18:54 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):S( )S(aSaS):^^
23:18:54 <thutubot> ^ul (aSaS)(^ul)
23:19:00 <ehird> oerjan: halp
23:19:04 <fizzie> Haven't we already have had enough of them +ul/^ul variants?
23:19:11 <oerjan> what are you trying to do?
23:19:53 <ehird> oerjan: iterating quine
23:20:00 <fizzie> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
23:20:00 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
23:20:01 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
23:20:09 <ehird> no fizzie
23:20:11 <ehird> i didn't say write me one
23:20:16 <ehird> I said help me :P
23:20:30 <fizzie> I was just checking whether I log-grepped one line.
23:20:42 <ehird> +ul (^ul)(+ul)S
23:20:42 <thutubot> +ul
23:20:44 <ehird> +ul (^ul)(+ul)S
23:20:44 <thutubot> +ul
23:20:45 -!- ehird has left (?).
23:20:47 <fizzie> But I think that one is one of the easiest to understand, since it's pretty much just swappity and a.
23:20:48 -!- ehird has joined.
23:21:53 <fizzie> Anyway, that one is just swaps, a, and prints, plus a constant ":^" in the end; it's the simplest one of those I've seen.
23:21:56 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul)
23:21:58 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul)S
23:21:59 <thutubot> ^ul
23:22:05 <ehird> +ul (+ul)(^ul):SaSaS
23:22:05 <thutubot> ^ul(^ul)(+ul)
23:22:08 <fizzie> Musts sleep, have the fun.
23:22:09 <ehird> +ul (+ul )(^ul ):SaSaS
23:22:09 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )
23:22:15 <ehird> bye fizzie :)
23:22:19 <ehird> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS)^
23:22:19 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )
23:22:23 <ehird> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS):^S
23:22:23 <thutubot> :SaSaS(:SaSaS)(^ul )+ul
23:22:26 <ehird> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS):^
23:22:26 <thutubot> :SaSaS(:SaSaS)(^ul )
23:22:30 <ehird> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS)^
23:22:30 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )
23:22:31 <ehird> wait
23:22:32 <ehird> fizzie:
23:22:34 <ehird> what's dip
23:22:36 <ehird> I forgot :|
23:22:38 <ehird> oh right
23:22:45 <ehird> ~a*^
23:22:57 <ehird> : (b)(a)(S)~a*^
23:22:59 <ehird> +ul (b)(a)(S)~a*^
23:22:59 <thutubot> b
23:23:05 <ehird> +ul (b)(a)(S)~a*^S
23:23:05 <thutubot> ba
23:23:17 <ehird> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS):(^)~a*^
23:23:17 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )
23:23:20 <ehird> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS):(^)~a*^S
23:23:20 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul ):SaSaS
23:23:24 <ehird> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS):(^)~a*^aS
23:23:24 <thutubot> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(:SaSaS)
23:23:30 <ehird> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS)(:(^)~a*^aS):^S
23:23:31 <thutubot> ^ul {{^ul }}{{+ul }}{{:SaSaS}}{{:{{^}}~a*^aS}} ...S out of stack!
23:23:32 <ehird> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(:SaSaS)(:(^)~a*^aS):^aS
23:23:33 <thutubot> ^ul {{^ul }}{{+ul }}{{:SaSaS}}{{:{{^}}~a*^aS}} ...a out of stack!
23:23:34 <ehird> bah fuck it
23:24:58 <fizzie> If you stick your ^ul, +ul and "the program itself" strings in right order, you just need to print the middle one (so ~:S) to get the right beginning, then the middle one and first one again in parens, and finally the program and a :^.
23:25:04 <fizzie> That's what I did there, anyway.
23:25:06 <fizzie> Really, sleeps.
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2008-12-23
00:13:39 <oklopol> sleepance for me too
00:13:40 <oklopol> ->
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01:36:17 <CakeProphet> What's Haskell's reduce function?
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02:21:30 <oklopol> CakeProphet: fold[rl]
02:21:36 <CakeProphet> got it.
02:21:49 <CakeProphet> apparently concat is what I want though
02:22:02 <CakeProphet> concat = foldl (++) []
02:22:05 <CakeProphet> I believe
02:22:43 <oklopol> yes
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05:00:15 <oklopol> o
05:54:57 <CakeProphet> alright, my Haskell knowledge is now to the point where I can write simple programs that utilize stdin/stdout
05:55:20 <CakeProphet> and I have a feeling I could figure out monads now that I know how Random works.
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08:18:38 <ehird> CakeProphet: yeah
08:18:44 <ehird> Random is basically an explicit monad
08:54:32 <ehird> A Personal Appeal From
08:54:32 <ehird> Wikipedia Founder Jimmy Wales
08:54:33 <ehird> NO
08:54:36 <ehird> FUCK YOU
08:54:38 <ehird> FUCK YOU WKIPEDIA
08:54:40 <ehird> AND YOUR FUCKING RED BORDER
08:54:42 <ehird> RED
08:54:44 <ehird> FUCKING
08:54:46 <ehird> BORDER
08:54:49 <ehird> I DON'T GIVE A FUCKING SHIT THAT YOU CAN'T AFFORD SHIT
08:54:57 <ehird> MAYBE YOU SHOULD COME UP WITH A BETTER WAY OF RAISING FUNDS THAN PISSING PEOPLE OFF
08:54:58 <ehird> WITH AR
08:54:59 <ehird> RED
08:55:00 <ehird> FUCKING
08:55:03 <ehird> BORDER
08:55:05 <ehird> EAT SHIT AND DIE
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11:43:50 <Mony> hihi
11:47:04 <ehird> hi
11:52:14 <oerjan> ^ul ((hi)S:^):^
11:52:14 <fungot> hihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihi ...too much output!
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12:08:59 <KingOfKarlsruhe> fungot: (< 1 2)
12:09:00 <fungot> KingOfKarlsruhe: a person, that player held that office. furthermore, the following
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14:32:24 <oklopol> o
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14:52:39 <oklopol> i think i have an idea how to implement brainfuck with + and - adding differentials
14:53:17 <Slereah_> Continuous brainfuck? :o
14:53:23 <oklopol> for the main loop, you first do a run where you just store the amount of differentials added to each cell
14:53:26 <Slereah_> Although you would need an infinity of 'em!
14:53:58 <oklopol> and also store the depencies for each loop, what cells need to become zero or one before their behavior changes
14:54:49 <oklopol> then it's just a matter of math to be able to add and subtract something from each node to make the branching behavior change
14:55:04 <oklopol> Slereah_: what? :)
14:55:49 <oklopol> toplevel inc's add and subtract a constant one, that's where you get actual numbers
14:56:00 <oklopol> and yes continuous brainfuck
14:56:21 <oklopol> so maybe contfuck :d
14:56:31 <ehird> oklopol: find a way to fit u's in to it!
14:56:35 <oklopol> u's?
14:56:50 <oklopol> oh
14:56:51 <oklopol> lol
14:56:52 <oklopol> :D
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14:56:55 * oklopol is slow
14:57:11 <oklopol> maybe unions then
14:57:52 <oklopol> if my idea works, this shouldn't be that hard
14:57:56 <oklopol> hmm.
14:57:58 <oklopol> output and input
14:58:06 <oklopol> how does that work :D
14:58:16 <oklopol> hmm...
14:58:45 <oklopol> maybe output could be graphical and input mouse only, so continuous output would make sense
14:58:50 <oklopol> continuous IO
14:59:16 <oklopol> not that that really gives any insight as to how to actually do it.
14:59:28 <oklopol> for instance +[-.]
14:59:46 <oklopol> should output the whole (0,1]
14:59:50 <oklopol> wait
14:59:55 <oklopol> [0,1)
15:00:26 <oklopol> except (1,0], because i guess the ordering matters
15:00:33 <oklopol> well.
15:00:41 <oklopol> maybe for now, it could just print in that notation.
15:01:29 <oklopol> +[-------------------.] hehe, exact same thing
15:01:38 * Sgeo should learn this quantum stuff at some point
15:01:57 <oklopol> +[>++.<-] should print (0,2]
15:01:59 <Sgeo> erm wait, you're not talking quantum, are you? Ranges stuff
15:02:07 <Sgeo> I know ranges or whatever
15:02:09 <oklopol> i'm talking about differentialz
15:02:23 <oklopol> well continuous ranges are very different from discrete ones
15:02:34 <oklopol> you can't apply the usual inductive thinking
15:03:00 <oklopol> which is why i'm very sceptic about this all.
15:03:22 <oklopol> just seems i solved it, can't see a problem in doing it like i explained (or tried to explain)
15:05:00 -!- Judofyr has joined.
15:05:29 <oklopol> Sgeo: the idea is +[>++.<-] first sets a cell to 1, because + does that when we're not in a loop
15:05:35 <oklopol> then, when we get inside
15:05:40 <oklopol> things get differential.
15:05:50 <oklopol> basically, we move to the cell on the right
15:06:01 <oklopol> and add two differentials (infinitesimally small numbers)
15:06:24 <oklopol> and then print that new number, move back, and subtract one differential from the 1 we put in the first cell
15:07:09 <oklopol> now, because these numbers are infinitesimally small, we will do an uncountable number of cycles
15:07:37 <oklopol> but
15:08:15 <oklopol> now all we need to know is the first cell always gets decremented once for each time the second cell incremented added twice
15:08:29 <oklopol> now all we need to know is the first cell always gets decremented once for each time the second cell gets incremented twice
15:08:34 <oklopol> a little typo there.
15:09:03 <oklopol> so, naturally as the first 1 gets decremented into a 0, the second one gets incremented into a 2
15:10:07 <oklopol> this is of course the kind of inductive reasoning that doesn't always apply with reals
15:11:15 <oklopol> but it does in this case, the crux of seeing why is to realize the logic that determines what is added to which cell during the loop doesn't change no matter how much the cell values change, until the first cell reaches 0
15:11:49 <oklopol> so we can start doing larger jumps than the infitesimally small ones, as long as we can prove we aren't "jumping over zeroes".
15:13:24 <oklopol> changing by a differential can't jump over a zero because if at some point a cell value is -a, and it changes to a by infitesimally small changes, we have to have gone through 0 at some point
15:14:29 <oklopol> adding differentials means, intuitively, that we enumerate through all reals, which is of course impossible, but you can get the behavior to be the same using math
15:14:35 <oklopol> but i'm just rambling, don't mind me
15:19:32 <ehird> hai oklopol
15:19:45 <oklopol> hy
15:21:58 <ehird> oklopol: so how come finns are like
15:22:01 <ehird> functional programming weenies
15:22:03 <ehird> and esolang weenies
15:22:05 <ehird> they're everywhere
15:23:01 <oklopol> well dunno, i've bumped into about 20 on freenode, out of 5 million
15:23:16 <ehird> oklopol: look in #haskell
15:23:17 <ehird> and grep for fi
15:23:19 <ehird> also
15:23:21 <ehird> msot people in here are finnish
15:23:23 <ehird> srsly
15:23:27 <ehird> most actives at least
15:23:36 <oklopol> well yes, true
15:23:38 <oklopol> i have no idea.
15:24:15 <oklopol> so, ehird. are you going to cambridge next year?
15:24:29 <ehird> oklopol: wat
15:24:53 <oklopol> wat wat? i asked you a random question, how can i justify it any further
15:26:49 <ehird> oklopol: specify cambridge further
15:27:15 <oklopol> the university, or college, i don't really know what the deal is between the two.
15:28:27 <ehird> I don't exactly have plans to try and see if they'd welcome a random 14 year old, no. :P
15:28:43 <oklopol> :-)
15:28:53 <oklopol> do you own at school?
15:29:16 <ehird> I AM REALLY DUMB
15:29:19 <ehird> I just play a clever person on the internet.
15:29:20 <ehird> ^ Lies
15:29:24 <ehird> ^ Lies
15:29:27 <ehird> ^ Infinite lies.
15:29:31 <ehird> ^ Not a lie.
15:29:50 <oklopol> oh i see
15:32:29 <oklopol> wait 14?
15:32:33 <oklopol> are you 14
15:32:36 <ehird> no
15:32:39 <ehird> but i will be next year
15:32:40 <oklopol> wait
15:32:42 <oklopol> next year
15:32:45 <oklopol> uhhuh! i get it!
15:32:51 * oklopol smartz it up
15:38:58 * AnMaster looks around
15:40:47 <ehird> AnMaster: you weird people have xmas tomorrow
15:40:47 <ehird> freaks
15:43:51 <oklopol> yay i don't have band training, can raed and coed <3
15:44:19 <ehird> oklopol: coed a cod
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16:17:08 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed we do
16:17:17 <ehird> weirdooooooooooos
16:17:20 * AnMaster whistles some xmas melodies
16:17:26 <AnMaster> ehird, you are just envious :P
16:18:00 <ehird> no, I'm not the weirdo
16:18:02 <ehird> who celebrates X
16:18:04 <ehird> on X ev
16:18:05 <ehird> e
16:18:37 <AnMaster> x? x-ray?
16:18:55 <ehird> X for all X
16:19:35 <AnMaster> ah
16:25:31 <Slereah_> *Rontgen
16:26:06 <oklopol> ooooooooooooo
16:29:06 <AnMaster> Slereah_, Röntgen yes, what about it?
16:32:29 <Slereah_> Rontgen ray, not X ray!
16:33:11 <oklopol> i hate it when concepts have people names
16:33:29 <Slereah_> Even Feynmann diagrams? :o
16:34:30 <ehird> |
16:36:28 <oklopol> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Beta_Negative_Decay.svg oh my god this is beautiful
16:36:47 <oklopol> Slereah_: yes, even feynman diagrams.
16:37:03 <Slereah_> You're a monster
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16:37:26 <Slereah_> What about the TURING MACHINE?
16:37:28 <Slereah_> HUH?
16:37:37 <oklopol> the interaction of balanced and unbalanced loops is very confusing in contfuck
16:37:54 <oklopol> Slereah_: universal machine is a better term
16:38:15 <Slereah_> Universal machine is confusing
16:38:32 <Slereah_> It could be the Turing machine, or the Turing machine interpreter on the Turing machine!
16:38:33 <oklopol> that's the beauty of taking terms from english and not names
16:38:39 <oklopol> oh
16:38:44 <oklopol> confusing like that
16:39:26 <Slereah_> The real Turing machine was originally called the automatic machine :o
16:39:34 <Slereah_> Or "computing machine"
16:39:43 <oklopol> both would be better terms than tm
16:40:27 <Slereah_> Or that worker in that box, if you use the Emil Post article
16:40:37 <Slereah_> I'm not sure he actually names the concet
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17:56:08 <AnMaster> <Slereah_> Rontgen ray, not X ray!
17:56:11 <AnMaster> same in Swedish
17:56:21 <AnMaster> röntgenstrålar
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19:08:40 <oklopol> ais523: are you here by any chance
19:10:48 <ehird> no
19:10:55 <ehird> oklopol: try /w ais523
19:10:58 <oklopol> never!
19:11:07 <oklopol> okay i did
19:11:09 <oklopol> what should i see
19:11:38 <ehird> oklopol: he's marked as away
19:11:44 <ehird> well, he's not
19:11:47 <ehird> but idle 22 hours
19:12:11 <oklopol> my /w doesn't show idle time
19:12:24 <oklopol> also 22 hours of being idle doesn't automatically mean you're not here
19:12:41 <oklopol> probably does for ais523 if he doesn't have an internet connection, but anyway
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20:10:15 <oklopol> o
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21:11:26 <ehird> hi oklopol
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22:29:46 <oklopol> hi.!
22:30:44 <ehird> oklopol: LESS MAKE LANUAGE
22:30:45 <ehird> :.:
22:32:27 <oklopol> :-=)
22:32:32 <oklopol> but i need to reeeeeead
22:33:22 <ehird> but oklopol
22:33:25 <ehird> if we make a language
22:33:28 <ehird> we can make a book
22:33:28 <ehird> about
22:33:29 <ehird> the language
22:33:31 <ehird> and
22:33:33 <ehird> then you can
22:33:35 <ehird> read
22:33:37 <ehird> it
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22:41:27 <oklopol> perhaps we should make a haskell-derivative in the nopular paradigm by making all functions return void
22:41:34 <oklopol> return () i mean
22:45:51 <oklopol> hmm. well you could cps tcness, just that you couldn't output the result at the nodes of evaluation
22:47:07 <ehird> oklopol: how about haskell that only has
22:47:13 <ehird> no functions
22:47:14 <ehird> just
22:47:17 <ehird> application
22:47:25 <ehird> and you make programs out of infinite nested applications
22:49:15 <oklopol> hmm. no functions? you mean not even predefined ones
22:49:36 <oklopol> i mean if there's predefined functions, you can just do point-free
22:50:22 <ehird> oklopol: no predefined
22:50:29 <ehird> it's all based on the structure of the applications
22:50:37 <ehird> infinite, naturally
22:50:39 <ehird> oklopol: basically
22:50:46 <ehird> you write your program in a sub-TC metalanguage
22:50:53 <ehird> that describes an infinite tree of applications
22:50:55 <ehird> maybe even a graph
22:50:56 <ehird> then
22:50:58 <ehird> semantics
22:51:01 <ehird> on top of the structure of it
22:52:38 <ehird> oklopol: the interpreter could output a nice png or w/e
22:52:41 <ehird> at any scale
22:52:45 <ehird> heck, you could construct fractal programs
22:53:58 <oklopol> infinite programs are niec
22:54:23 <oklopol> fractal programs? preprocessor macros that allow recursion
22:55:04 <ehird> oklopol: you have to code in a metalanguage, beacuse the programs are an infinite tree/graph
22:56:59 <oklopol> yes that is an inevitability
22:57:08 <oklopol> i think i should change book again
22:57:43 <oklopol> or sleep
22:57:48 <oklopol> sleep or read?
22:57:50 <oklopol> ^bool
22:57:50 <fungot> No.
22:57:56 <oklopol> err.
22:57:58 <oklopol> wait
22:58:03 <oklopol> that didn't help!
22:58:09 <oklopol> sleep?
22:58:11 <oklopol> ^bool
22:58:11 <fungot> Yes.
22:58:14 <oklopol> :|
22:58:19 <oklopol> yeah right, i'm gonna eat
22:59:14 <ehird> but it'll be sub-tc
22:59:41 <ehird> so its just a metalanguage
23:00:44 <ehird> oklopol: circle program:
23:00:53 <ehird> well
23:00:58 <ehird> little looping program
23:00:59 <ehird> same thing
23:00:59 <ehird> :P
23:01:13 <ehird> () * ();
23:01:27 <ehird> two-point loop
23:01:29 <ehird> a * ();
23:01:30 <ehird> () * a;
23:01:44 <ehird> line to a loop
23:01:46 <ehird> () * a;
23:01:47 <ehird> a * b;
23:01:48 <ehird> b * a;
23:02:01 <ehird> line to both ends of a loop
23:02:10 <ehird> () * (a / b);
23:02:11 <ehird> a * b;
23:02:12 <ehird> b * a;
23:02:22 <ehird> () = main program
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23:03:55 <ehird> oklopol: ??
23:03:56 <ehird> :D
23:05:03 <oklopol> oh... my...... god
23:05:04 <oklopol> that's
23:05:06 <oklopol> AWESOME
23:05:07 <oklopol> !!
23:05:11 <oklopol> \\OO//
23:05:12 <ehird> oklopol: isn't it just!
23:05:16 <oklopol> YES
23:05:20 <ehird> the hard part is assigning meaningful semantics ofc
23:05:22 <ehird> but the point is
23:05:26 <ehird> you have basically a graph language.
23:05:30 <oklopol> it's FAIRLY and QUITE awesome.
23:05:36 <ehird> wow, I impressed oklopol
23:05:39 <ehird> are you sure you're not being sarcastic?
23:05:55 <oklopol> i'm being 100% sarcastic and not sarcastic at the same time.
23:06:04 <ehird> oklopol: so is it awesome or not
23:06:06 -!- lolbot has quit.
23:06:07 <oklopol> i'm quantum sarcastic.
23:06:20 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
23:06:26 <oklopol> is * a rewriting thingie
23:06:26 -!- lolbot has joined.
23:06:33 <oklopol> psygnisfive: what are you doing here?
23:06:33 <Slereah_> What's your sarcastic wave function?
23:06:41 <psygnisfive> what do you mean what am i doing here
23:06:42 <psygnisfive> im lurking
23:06:45 <psygnisfive> what else would i be doing here
23:07:16 <oklopol> you could be playing the ball........
23:07:29 <psygnisfive> playing the ball?
23:07:35 <ehird> oklopol: * is connecting
23:07:39 <ehird> / is dividing
23:07:40 <Slereah_> Playing my balls
23:07:43 <oklopol> oh okay.
23:07:58 <ehird> oklopol: the interesting part ofc is making all that t
23:07:59 <ehird> tc
23:08:02 <ehird> with actual semantics
23:08:17 <oklopol> well yeah sure okay i now realize what you were doing up there
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23:09:02 <oklopol> ehird: so plz supply a semantics
23:09:08 <ehird> well halp
23:09:09 <ehird> :P
23:09:31 <oklopol> so umm. first of all how's that syntax do infinite graphs
23:09:56 <ehird> how does it not
23:10:00 <ehird> it has circular graphz
23:10:16 <ehird> infinite graphs are just circular graphs.
23:10:24 <psygnisfive> ehird: what? no.
23:10:29 <psygnisfive> circular graphs are finite
23:10:31 <ehird> well kinda
23:12:20 <oerjan> circular graphs are circular
23:12:23 <oerjan> obviously
23:12:26 <psygnisfive> indeed.
23:12:31 <psygnisfive> and necessarily not infinite
23:12:44 <psygnisfive> unless ofcourse you have a circle of infinite circumference
23:12:49 <psygnisfive> which is i suppose technically possible
23:13:03 <psygnisfive> just like you can have a line segment (not line) of infinite length
23:13:30 <oerjan> that's a straight line in those circumstances i've seen it make sense
23:13:44 <psygnisfive> ey?
23:13:47 <psygnisfive> which cases?
23:13:56 <psygnisfive> well, i shouldnt actually say line segment sorry
23:14:04 <psygnisfive> what i meant was a curve with two end points
23:14:17 <oerjan> a straight line is a circle that passes through infinity in the gaussian sphere
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23:18:35 <oerjan> sheesh
23:18:40 <oerjan> *riemann sphere
23:19:25 <ehird> feynman sphere
23:23:36 <Slereah_> Isle of Man sphere
23:24:26 <oerjan> sphere of influenza
23:24:52 <Slereah_> Smear of influenza
23:25:39 <oklopol> things getting outta hands?
23:26:05 <Slereah_> You're right
23:26:11 <Slereah_> Let's get back to the basics
23:26:14 <Slereah_> okokokokokokoko
23:26:34 <oklopol> okokokokokokoko
23:26:38 <oerjan> okoko oko
23:26:43 <oklopol> ooookokokoko
23:26:57 <oerjan> o? ko.
23:27:04 <oklopol> okoko okokoko oko okokoko okokokokooooooooooooooooooooooooo
23:27:07 <oklopol> o!
23:27:52 <oerjan> o oko okoko oko, okoko okokoko o okoko oko, oko o okoko.
23:28:27 <psygnisfive> oh
23:28:30 <psygnisfive> oklopol
23:28:35 <oklopol> oko okoko okokoko okoko oko oko okokoko okokokokoko o o o
23:28:44 <psygnisfive> i inadvertently induced a moment of okokoko in #isharia a few days ago
23:28:56 <oklopol> ehird: an infinite graph means the graph is infinite
23:29:01 <oklopol> what you're going for
23:29:04 <oklopol> is an infinite tree
23:29:10 <ehird> tru
23:29:15 <oklopol> a graph that has cycles is an infinite tree when you root it
23:29:48 <psygnisfive> a graph that has cycles is not a tree :P
23:30:07 <ehird> okay a cyclic infinite graph
23:30:26 <oklopol> psygnisfive: the rooting process is what matters
23:30:31 <psygnisfive> oklopol
23:30:32 <psygnisfive> its not
23:30:36 <psygnisfive> if it has cycles, its not a tree
23:30:42 <psygnisfive> because a tree is any connected acyclic graph
23:30:46 <psygnisfive> by definition. :P
23:30:51 <psygnisfive> so if it has cycles, its not a tree.
23:31:31 <oklopol> ...
23:32:15 <oklopol> i'm just explaining to ehird what he meant, i don't really give a shit if you don't understand what he meant
23:32:37 <psygnisfive> who knows what ehird meant. im simply saying that if it has cycles, its not a tree.
23:32:53 <oerjan> rooting means constructing the universal covering, i presume
23:32:55 <ehird> i think ill make irrelevant comments of random pedanticism all the time
23:32:56 <oklopol> blah. the point is
23:33:15 <oklopol> you root it arbitrarily, and do bredth-first to get an infinite tree.
23:33:34 <oklopol> i know the definition of a tree.
23:33:34 <psygnisfive> oerjan: who knows. the root of a tree is just a specially designated node in the tree.
23:36:16 <oklopol> psygnisfive: so say you have the graph abca, you root it at b, and start doing bfs, and you get the infinite tree (b (a (b ...) (c ...)) (c (b ...) (a ...)))
23:36:25 <oklopol> makes more sense if it's directed
23:36:32 <psygnisfive> what?
23:36:37 <psygnisfive> i dont know what that means
23:36:43 <oklopol> which part
23:36:52 <psygnisfive> the whole thing
23:37:03 <psygnisfive> i can sort of guess what you mean by the graph abca but other than that
23:37:04 <oklopol> abca is a cycle of three nodes
23:38:07 <oklopol> start doing bfs = start from the root node, make it the root of the infinite tree, make all nodes it's connected to in the graph the children of the root of the tree, the standard bfs
23:38:36 <oklopol> (b (a (b ...) (c ...)) (c (b ...) (a ...))) <<< a tree with b as the root, left child (a (b ...) (c ...)), right child (c (b ...) (a ...))
23:38:51 <oklopol> (parent left-child-branch right-child-branch)
23:39:03 <psygnisfive> i see
23:39:06 <oklopol> if you still don't get that, ask ehird, this is very trivial
23:39:08 <oklopol> okay
23:39:08 <oklopol> good.
23:40:13 <psygnisfive> so let me just clarify to make sure i know what you mean
23:40:26 <psygnisfive> if a->b, b->c, c->a is the graph
23:41:17 <psygnisfive> by rooting it at b, we construct a tree with b as the rood, and {a, c} as the children of b, because {a, c} are connected to b?
23:41:17 <oerjan> hm the vertices of the result correspond to paths from the chosen vertex in the original graph
23:42:14 <oerjan> (finite ones)
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23:54:17 <oklopol> oerjan: yes
23:54:24 <psygnisfive> oklopol :|
23:54:43 <oklopol> psygnisfive: well if it's directed then a more sensible way would probably to have the tree be just b -> c -> a -> b...
23:55:00 <psygnisfive> thats not a tree, as it has cycles
2008-12-24
00:01:15 <oklopol> clearly the b nodes are different
00:01:24 <oklopol> there's no cycle, just an infinite tree
00:01:31 <psygnisfive> well you didn't write them differently :P
00:01:46 <oklopol> because they correspond to the node b
00:01:54 <psygnisfive> this is like deja vu, in some sense
00:02:12 <oerjan> you keep saying that
00:02:25 <psygnisfive> i just recently wrote a 25 page, single spaced paper on a very closely related issue
00:02:27 <oklopol> i don't see why you insist on understanding this
00:02:41 <oklopol> i see
00:02:45 <oklopol> elaborate at once
00:02:48 <psygnisfive> well
00:02:53 <psygnisfive> im a syntactician
00:03:02 <ehird> no, you're a pedant.
00:03:12 <psygnisfive> i do research into natural language syntax, and syntactic theory
00:03:17 <oklopol> naturally
00:03:36 <psygnisfive> and so obviously one of the main ideas in natural language syntax is, ofcourse, syntactic trees
00:03:53 <psygnisfive> and more importantly, tree building
00:03:58 <oklopol> well yes, i know it was about syntactic trees
00:04:00 <oklopol> that was kind of a given
00:04:07 <psygnisfive> /tree generation
00:04:17 <oklopol> hmm
00:04:23 <oerjan> give us semantic trees
00:04:28 <oerjan> with flowery prose!
00:04:37 <psygnisfive> some contemporary versions of tree building are ones that employ directed acyclic graphs
00:04:50 <psygnisfive> so that a single node can be dominated by more than one other node
00:05:08 <oklopol> dominated?
00:05:11 <psygnisfive> yes
00:05:18 <psygnisfive> a->b means a immediately dominates b
00:05:30 <oklopol> right. haven't heard that term
00:05:38 <psygnisfive> and a dominates b if a->b or if a->c and c dominates b
00:05:48 <psygnisfive> basically, domination is just a path in a DAG
00:05:48 <oklopol> i know
00:05:57 <psygnisfive> thats really what it amounts to
00:06:04 <oklopol> yes yes
00:06:12 <oklopol> just hadn't heard the term
00:06:17 <psygnisfive> anyway, there are some ideas being thrown around that depend on certain asymmetric relationships between nodes in a tree
00:06:29 <psygnisfive> or rather, asymmetric instances of a relationship
00:06:58 <psygnisfive> and when you have more than one node dominating some other node, these asymmetric relationships are not total
00:07:07 <psygnisfive> and totality is crucial for these ideas
00:07:39 <oklopol> getting pretty abstract.
00:07:39 <psygnisfive> but noone seems to notice this because they get caught up in conveniences of notation that conflict with their "formal" definitions
00:07:50 <psygnisfive> ok one of these relationships is called c-command
00:07:57 <oklopol> ok
00:08:01 <psygnisfive> in the earliest definition of c-command:
00:08:22 <psygnisfive> a c-commands b if a and b are sisters, or if b is dominated by a sister of a
00:08:40 <psygnisfive> so a c-commands its sisters and everything below them
00:08:44 <oklopol> oh that kind of relationships
00:08:54 <psygnisfive> yeah. a structural relationship between nodes
00:09:00 <oklopol> yes right k.
00:09:19 <psygnisfive> but imagine if a is simultaneously sister to b, but also dominated by b
00:09:40 * oklopol imagines
00:09:49 <psygnisfive> a and b do /not/ c-command one another, because c-command doesn't apply when one item contains the other
00:09:51 <oklopol> PaPba
00:09:55 <oklopol> P being their parent
00:10:04 <psygnisfive> er..
00:10:09 <oklopol> wait that doesn't really work for undirected graphs..
00:10:13 <oklopol> so just ignore it
00:10:31 <psygnisfive> well we have the following notation for it
00:10:37 <psygnisfive> [x a [b a]]
00:11:00 <psygnisfive> where the first item in the brackets is the label for the node that the brackets represents
00:11:03 <psygnisfive> and the rest are the child nodes
00:11:43 <oklopol> yeah
00:12:04 <psygnisfive> or lets assume that a and b do c-command one another
00:12:11 <psygnisfive> ignoring containment for a second
00:12:35 <psygnisfive> consider [x a [y b [z c a]]]
00:12:45 <psygnisfive> a and b symmetrically c-command one another
00:13:02 <oklopol> yeah
00:13:05 <psygnisfive> if only one of x and z directly dominated a, then it wouldn't be symmetric
00:13:12 <psygnisfive> it'd be asymmetric
00:13:33 <oklopol> hmm, actually i'm not sure i understand, wait a sec.
00:13:41 <psygnisfive> ok
00:13:46 <psygnisfive> i can just send you the paper
00:14:22 <psygnisfive> the parts that deal with this issue are relatively detached from syntax as a whole and deal with some very specific topics so youll understand it.
00:14:36 <oklopol> okay.
00:15:08 <oklopol> i still have a hard time seeing how this could have to do with rooting arbitrary graphs, but i'll try to find time to read it.
00:15:33 <psygnisfive> no, the part that i found deja vu like is that you were representing different nodes with the same symbols
00:16:05 <psygnisfive> and that unless you specify this beforehand, it's not apparent that they're different nodes
00:16:06 <oklopol> i see. it was just sexps really.
00:16:33 <ehird> Sex pee
00:16:41 <psygnisfive> and one of the reasons that i wrote this paper was because similar things go on in syntax, with precisely the problems that you could expect from having a notation that can be interpreted in different ways.
00:17:07 <psygnisfive> oklopol: http://www.wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/Formalizing%20Minimalism.pdf
00:17:52 <oklopol> usually you'd explain your notation, and not have that problem
00:18:02 <psygnisfive> yeah, but this doesnt happen
00:18:25 <oklopol> weird.
00:18:29 <psygnisfive> sort of like it didnt happen when you said b->c->a->b->... was a tree without first saying that each b was a distinct node :P
00:18:51 <oklopol> anyway the reason i wasn't being clear was because i was sure you already understood it.
00:19:14 <psygnisfive> ah well. if you start talking mathy to me, i take everything at face value.
00:19:35 <oklopol> yeah, understandable
00:19:39 <psygnisfive> actually i do that in generally but its especially typical when talking about these things
00:21:16 <oklopol> being pedantic is always a good thing. i just didn't really feel like being more clear because my whole point was just to tell ehird what he said had definite truth in it, just not the exact truth he said it had.
00:21:32 <oklopol> and damn you for linking
00:21:33 * psygnisfive nodes
00:21:37 <psygnisfive> haha
00:21:37 <oklopol> now i feel i should read it.
00:21:37 <psygnisfive> :)
00:21:41 * oklopol edges
00:21:48 <psygnisfive> first you should comment on my site background images
00:22:08 <psygnisfive> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/ http://www.wellnowwhat.net/Rights_in_the_Post-Governance_Society.html http://www.wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/honors_thesis/
00:22:31 <Slereah_> Can't you just post gay porn?
00:22:50 <oklopol> psygnisfive: that's pretty awesome
00:24:01 <psygnisfive> the bgs? :)
00:24:10 <ehird> psygnisfive: I can generate random colours too
00:24:19 <psygnisfive> actually i didnt generate these
00:24:29 <oklopol> psygnisfive: umm.
00:24:34 <psygnisfive> they're lines that keep showing up in windows
00:24:34 <oklopol> what page should i start on
00:25:03 <psygnisfive> some drawing glitch in my computer's window manager or something like that
00:25:12 <psygnisfive> oklopol: do you mean for this issue of DAGs and trees and such?
00:25:14 <ehird> gfx card driver
00:25:19 <oklopol> psygnisfive: yes.
00:25:22 <psygnisfive> its not the driver actually, ehird
00:25:41 <ehird> eh, I got similar glitches with a driver on x11
00:25:43 <psygnisfive> because they're bound to windows, in that i can drag the windows around and they follow it
00:25:48 <psygnisfive> and if i resize the windows they go away
00:25:49 <ehird> huh
00:25:52 <psygnisfive> and i can take screenshots
00:25:57 <psygnisfive> its just some drawing algorithm error
00:26:15 <oklopol> of course if that's written by you, i might want to read the whole of it
00:26:26 <oklopol> then again i probably wouldn't understand it.
00:26:29 <psygnisfive> oklopol: yes, i wrote the whole thing
00:26:46 <oklopol> well yeah that wasn't really an "if", more like a "seeing as"
00:26:47 <psygnisfive> you might get it. its not TOO embedded in syntax, and most of what is i explain for completeness
00:26:55 <ehird> psygnisfive: can you satisfy this amateur typographic fuck by switching to a non-monospaced font?
00:27:24 <psygnisfive> eh.. start on page 11, "Move, Multiple Dominance, and Linearization"
00:27:29 <oklopol> non-monospaced fonts should never be used
00:27:44 <ehird> oklopol: yeah but you don't even read, you just connect objects to your brainwave
00:27:44 <ehird> s
00:27:47 <ehird> I use actual eyes and stuff
00:27:49 <psygnisfive> ehird: no. i like the monospacedness. its grungy and gritty and goes nicely with the backgrounds :)
00:28:01 <ehird> psygnisfive: fine, don't expect me to read your site :P
00:28:06 <ehird> how about Curlz MT
00:28:07 <psygnisfive> i dont :P
00:28:08 <ehird> It's very grungy
00:28:20 <ehird> failing that comic sans could be a good substitute
00:29:00 <oklopol> (non-monospaced fonts should be killed)
00:29:09 <ehird> oklopol: shush
00:30:05 <oklopol> neverrr
00:32:13 <ehird> ais523: http://www.mathrix.org/experimentalAIT/TuringMachine.html
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00:35:09 <oerjan> even people who don't think non-monospaced fonts should be killed often think comic sans should be killed.
00:36:34 <ehird> curlz mt, man!
00:37:44 <psygnisfive> oejan: truer words
00:40:07 <ehird> CURLZ FUCKING MT
00:40:57 * psygnisfive curlz ehird's mt
00:41:03 <ehird> :o
00:41:36 <psygnisfive> http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2008/12/15/348-an-imperial-palimpsest-on-polands-electoral-map/
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01:48:35 <oklopol> psygnisfive: this is a fun read
01:48:45 <psygnisfive> oh?
01:49:02 <oklopol> i have no idea what the definitions are useful for, but i like reading them :P
01:51:38 <psygnisfive> lol
01:51:41 <psygnisfive> which definitions do you mean?
01:53:01 <oklopol> c-commanding mostly, i just started.
01:53:42 <oklopol> most of this is over my head, you constantly refer to basic things i've never heard about
01:53:46 <psygnisfive> ah well, that section is mostly about the implications that using DAGs for syntax trees has for attempts to linearize the nodes in the tree based on c-command
01:53:51 <psygnisfive> which basic things?
01:54:42 <oklopol> merge
01:55:29 <psygnisfive> oh
01:55:46 <psygnisfive> well
01:55:47 <oklopol> linearize... does that mean ordering?
01:56:09 <psygnisfive> eh.. yes. linearization is taking a graph and finding some total relation over the graph
01:56:41 <oklopol> yeah okay good
01:56:56 <psygnisfive> or rather, taking some abstractly /defined/ relation, and finding that relation for some graph
01:57:12 <psygnisfive> because graphs are basically not linearly ordered
01:57:15 <psygnisfive> they're just abstract relations
01:57:35 <oklopol> right, right
01:57:36 <psygnisfive> so if a sentence is a graph, there has to be some unique way of linearizing the words in the graph
01:57:48 <oklopol> ohh
01:57:54 <psygnisfive> and it has to be a total linearization
01:58:09 <psygnisfive> there can't be any two words that have no relative linearization
01:58:16 <oklopol> i think i had a crucial epiphany
01:58:22 <oklopol> thank you for that
01:58:24 <psygnisfive> every word must either come before or after some other word
01:58:34 <oklopol> yes
01:59:03 <psygnisfive> so if your tree has no inherent directionality, like say a Left-Right tree does, you have to do this linearization some other way
01:59:20 <psygnisfive> and one of the ideas is that you could do this using asymmetric c-command relationships
01:59:33 <oklopol> yeah was just about to ask
01:59:50 <oklopol> (yes, i did just read about it, but i didn't understand what it was about back then)
01:59:56 <psygnisfive> :p
02:00:15 <psygnisfive> i find that everyone i talk to has to ask what linearization means
02:00:16 <oklopol> suddenly i wanna learn more about this
02:00:22 <psygnisfive> hahaha
02:00:28 <psygnisfive> well, i can teach you some syntax if you want :)
02:00:34 <psygnisfive> theres all sorts of shit like this in syntax
02:00:43 <psygnisfive> scope is another really fascinating issue in syntax
02:01:06 <oklopol> well i'm all for learning all the basics at least
02:01:26 <oklopol> except not now of course, it's 4 am.
02:01:35 <psygnisfive> theres honestly not much to learn, in terms of the way the theory works
02:01:45 <oklopol> probably not.
02:04:25 <oklopol> anyway, what you meant by linearization would've been clear if i'd understood the graph represented a sentence
02:04:57 <oklopol> well. right now it seems like it should've been perfectly clear even without that info
02:05:14 <oklopol> but i'm very tired, and i can just blame that
02:06:09 <psygnisfive> i realize now that I didn't use the word "sentence" until page 19
02:06:10 <psygnisfive> haha
02:06:25 <psygnisfive> but in the context of syntax, trees = sentences
02:06:26 <psygnisfive> so
02:09:08 <oklopol> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
02:09:13 <oklopol> ...
02:09:20 <oklopol> that was accidental
02:09:24 <psygnisfive> was it?
02:09:26 <psygnisfive> how can we know?
02:09:29 <psygnisfive> you ARE oklopol
02:09:37 <oklopol> i was reading my book you see
02:09:42 <oklopol> on the keyboard
02:09:49 <oklopol> and suddenly there were texts.
02:13:15 <psygnisfive> speaking of texts
02:13:43 <psygnisfive> http://www.malegeneral.com/dongs/src/1229957639477.jpg
02:15:08 <Slereah_> Who is this faggot
02:15:13 <Slereah_> In his pyjama
02:15:14 <oklopol> it's psygnisfive
02:15:22 <Slereah_> psygnisfive, you are a faggot
02:15:48 <psygnisfive> i would never behave so ridiculously
02:15:54 <psygnisfive> or look so silly
02:16:10 <Slereah_> Or would you?
02:16:16 <oklopol> yes would you?
02:17:27 <psygnisfive> no.
02:17:37 <Slereah_> Let's see on your fetlife profile
02:17:41 <psygnisfive> actually i have a strong desire to punch people like that in the face
02:17:49 <Slereah_> Maybe "Acting like a douche" is amidst it
02:18:28 <psygnisfive> it most certainly is not sir!
02:18:40 <psygnisfive> good heavens man, you're mad!
02:19:05 <Slereah_> "forced orgasms (tens units, etc.)"
02:19:09 * psygnisfive puts on top hat and saunters off hautilly
02:19:12 <Slereah_> What, exactly ten units?
02:19:18 <psygnisfive> tens unit.
02:19:19 <Slereah_> What if it's nine or eleven?
02:19:40 <psygnisfive> tens = transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulator
02:20:08 <Slereah_> Hm.
02:20:12 <Slereah_> "Public humiliation"
02:20:19 <Slereah_> Acting like a douche could totally do that
02:20:39 <psygnisfive> acting like a douche isn't humiliating
02:20:43 <psygnisfive> because you're a douch
02:21:01 <psygnisfive> it would be humiliating to those you're with.
02:21:28 <oklopol> i'm a douche
02:21:50 <psygnisfive> are you a douche like that tho?
02:21:57 <oklopol> :)
02:22:05 <oklopol> i'm not sure what kind of person that guy is
02:22:28 <oklopol> looks like a happy dude
02:22:33 <oklopol> i'm pretty happy
02:23:00 <oklopol> i can certainly be humiliating to those i'm with
02:23:21 <Slereah_> But are you more humiliating than psygnisfive, though?
02:23:31 <psygnisfive> am i humiliating at all?
02:23:33 <Slereah_> He'll probably hang with you in his fursuit or something.
02:23:39 <oklopol> for one, i may burst into song in pretty much any situation
02:23:42 <psygnisfive> i certainly do not have a fursuit
02:23:50 <Slereah_> WOULD YOU LIKE TO?
02:23:54 <psygnisfive> fursuiters almost always annoy the fuck out of me
02:24:04 <psygnisfive> except for the ones im friends with who are hot
02:24:10 <Slereah_> "teabagging (joecool)"
02:24:18 <psygnisfive> :D
02:24:21 <Slereah_> Do you only want to teabag this "Joe Cool"?
02:24:36 <psygnisfive> i have no idea what joecool is
02:24:45 <Slereah_> Also is he the teabagger or the teabaggee?
02:25:02 <psygnisfive> who cares! :D
02:25:33 <Slereah_> Joe Cool does.
02:25:44 <Slereah_> I think Joe Cool might be the legendary Cool Dude.
02:25:57 <Slereah_> With the backward cap and the popped collars.
02:26:34 <Slereah_> Ahah!
02:26:34 <Slereah_> http://fetlife.com/users/8385
02:26:37 <Slereah_> I was right!
02:26:45 <Slereah_> Joe Cool does have a backward cap!
02:27:22 <Slereah_> Strangely enough, he's not into teabagging Joe Cool
02:27:46 <Slereah_> He's only curious about it
02:27:59 <Slereah_> "It has my name on it, I wonder how it is!"
02:59:08 <oklopol> o
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04:32:35 <CakeProphet> .fortune
04:32:35 <lolbot> There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies and the other is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. -- Charles Anthony Richard Hoare
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09:08:21 <psygnisfive> wow, have there seriously been no comments in the last lik 7 hours?
09:08:21 <psygnisfive> lame
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09:27:51 <oerjan> <psygnisfive> i certainly do not have a fursuit
09:27:57 <oerjan> neither do i, forsooth
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09:28:47 <oerjan> that was weird
10:13:44 <AnMaster> merry xmas!
10:14:01 <AnMaster> (in Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia we celebrate on the 24th)
10:18:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is true for Norway too isn't it?
10:18:48 <oerjan> yes
10:18:48 <AnMaster> I know it is for Sweden and Finland
10:18:54 <AnMaster> :)
10:19:53 <oklopol> ooooooooooo
10:19:59 <AnMaster> oklopol, ?
10:20:23 <AnMaster> Some Finnish xmas song I expect?
10:22:38 <oerjan> ooooooooooo joulu, ooooooooooo joulu
10:23:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, is that Norwegian or Finnish?
10:23:09 <oerjan> definitely not norwegian
10:23:12 <AnMaster> ah
10:23:19 <oerjan> that would be
10:23:28 <oerjan> åååååååååååå julen, ååååååååååå julen
10:23:38 <oerjan> might work in swedish too?
10:23:40 <AnMaster> would be same in Swedish
10:23:41 <AnMaster> indeed
10:24:27 * AnMaster listens to some classical music, by Grieg
10:25:18 <oerjan> dum dum dum dum dum dum dum, dum dum dum, dum dum dum, dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum DUM
10:25:56 <AnMaster> nah not that one
10:26:08 <AnMaster> was "Morning mood"
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10:26:37 <oerjan> na na na na na na, na na na na na-na-na-na, na na na na na na na na na na...
10:26:53 <AnMaster> not "I bergakungens sal" (as I believe the original name is? This CD got English titles...)
10:27:07 <oerjan> I Dovregubbens hall
10:27:30 <AnMaster> ah
10:27:36 <AnMaster> so that was a Swedish variant then
10:28:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh also Solveig's song is probably the best piece of music from the Peer Gynt suites.
10:29:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, or what do you think
10:30:08 <oerjan> well it's pretty
10:30:17 <AnMaster> yes indeed
10:32:11 <oerjan> also, merry christmas
10:32:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, God Jul!
10:46:59 <oklopol> god yule!
10:48:26 * oklopol goes off yulin' ->
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11:44:52 <oerjan> ah, http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/ has entered into the holiday spirit
11:46:09 <AnMaster> I saw it this morning
11:46:11 <AnMaster> :)
11:46:28 <AnMaster> oh and cya, going to visit grandparents, so away for the rest of the day
11:46:43 <oerjan> bye and still God Jul
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13:48:57 <ehird> Stupid weird europeans.
13:49:01 <ehird> And your stupid xmas on today
14:00:34 <oerjan> Merry X-my-ass!
14:04:14 <ehird> xmas is tomorrow, freak retard.
14:04:29 <ehird> you are an inferior being
14:05:05 <oerjan> technically even here it doesn't start until 5 o'clock iirc
14:05:45 <oerjan> that's when they ring the church bells
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15:35:21 <ehird> hi ais523
15:35:52 -!- ehird has set topic: It's christmas eve, unless you're a wacky freak-man in one of those weird-ass European countries, in which case it's still Christmas Eve but you're celebrating today.
15:37:11 <ais523> <oklopol> i'm being 100% sarcastic and not sarcastic at the same time. <--- I love this line
15:37:52 <ehird> ais523: sure you do.
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16:44:27 <ehird> 52M optbot
16:44:31 <ehird> those logs be big
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17:45:46 <cpu-jockey> Spec: that's good, since it allows tunneling over P
17:46:14 <ais523|direct> hmm... do we have more new people here, or is cpu-jockey someone I know under a new nick?
17:46:25 <cpu-jockey> new
17:46:31 <cpu-jockey> (b)
17:46:34 <cpu-jockey> (rainfuck)
17:46:38 <ais523|direct> ah, everyone loves Brainfuck
17:46:44 <ais523|direct> with good reason
17:46:45 <SirDayBat> <3
17:47:02 <cpu-jockey> i'm thinking about writing a bf interpreter in asm
17:47:07 <cpu-jockey> with the idea of selfmodifying code
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17:47:09 <Slereah> Well, it is easy to learn and reasonably easy to use
17:47:12 <cpu-jockey> and some math tricks
17:47:38 <oerjan> rainfuck might be interesting as well, in theory
17:47:56 <cpu-jockey> that is, push machine code directly proportinal to input to the stack, and jmp *esp
17:57:06 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[->++++>++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<<]>>++.>>++.<+.++++++++.>----.<---.>+++++++.<<---.++++++++.<<.>>--.>--.<<<.>>+.+++.>+++.<----------.
17:57:07 <fungot> Brainfu?G
17:57:15 <ais523|direct> oerjan: ?
17:57:25 <ais523|direct> typo near the end?
17:57:25 <Slereah> BRAINFUG
17:57:35 <oerjan> a bit before the end
17:58:08 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[->++++>++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<<]>>++.>>++.<+.++++++++.>----.<---.>+++++++.<---.++++++++.<<.>>--.>--.<<<.>>+.+++.>+++.<----------.
17:58:09 <fungot> Brainfuck is jmvc
17:58:23 * oerjan is cursed. CURSED, i tell you
17:58:38 <Slereah> jmvc
17:58:39 <Slereah> jmvc
17:58:39 <Slereah> jmvc
17:58:39 <Slereah> jmvc
17:58:41 <ais523|direct> btw, I actually got gcc-bf to do something useful
17:58:50 <ais523|direct> although it fails at just about everything
17:58:56 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[->++++>++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<<]>>++.>>++.<+.++++++++.>----.<---.>+++++++.<---.++++++++.<<.>>--.>--.<<<.>>+++.+++.>+++.<----------.
17:58:56 <fungot> Brainfuck is love
17:58:57 <ais523|direct> I managed to get as far as the hello in hello world
17:59:03 <ais523|direct> because I was doing the hello and the world differently
17:59:21 <ais523|direct> (pointers to heap work atm, pointers to stack do I think but can't be used due to a different bug)
18:09:03 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[->++++>+<<]>+>[++++++++<.>]
18:09:04 <fungot> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
18:21:33 <cpu-jockey> ^bf ,.
18:21:33 <fungot> +
18:24:38 <oerjan> o_O
18:25:33 <oerjan> ^bf ,.
18:25:33 <fungot> +
18:25:36 <oerjan> ^bf ,,.
18:25:36 <fungot> +
18:25:39 <oerjan> ^bf ,,,.
18:25:39 <fungot> +
18:25:53 <oerjan> ^bf +,.
18:26:02 <oerjan> ^bf ,.
18:26:03 <fungot>
18:26:10 <oerjan> curiouser
18:26:53 <oerjan> ^bf .
18:27:13 <oerjan> ^bf ,.!?
18:27:14 <fungot> ?
18:27:18 <oerjan> ^bf ,.
18:27:18 <fungot> ?
18:27:34 <oerjan> ^bf ,.!
18:28:32 <oerjan> ^bf +[,.]!Hello, world!
18:28:33 <fungot> Hello, world!
18:28:40 <oerjan> ^bf ,.
18:28:40 <fungot> .
18:29:03 <oerjan> ^bf ,.
18:29:04 <fungot> .
18:29:05 <oerjan> ^bf ,.
18:29:05 <fungot> .
18:29:38 <oerjan> ^bf >+[<,.>]
18:29:38 <fungot> lo, world!
18:29:45 <oerjan> :D
18:29:55 <oerjan> ^bf >+[<,.>]
18:29:55 <fungot> lo, world!
18:29:55 <ais523|direct> wtf?
18:30:10 <oerjan> ^bf +[,.]
18:30:10 <fungot> >]
18:30:10 <ais523|direct> it must have old input from somewhere
18:30:17 <oerjan> yeah
18:30:34 <oerjan> ^bf +[,.]
18:30:34 <fungot> ve old input from somewhere
18:30:35 <cpu-jockey> wait a minute
18:30:40 <oerjan> oh shit
18:30:43 <cpu-jockey> the old input is the previous programs
18:30:48 <ais523|direct> no, it isn't
18:30:48 <oerjan> cpu-jockey: no, look!
18:30:50 <ais523|direct> it's old comments
18:30:54 <ais523|direct> ^bf +[,.]
18:30:54 <fungot> omments
18:31:07 <ais523|direct> ..........Hello, world!
18:31:10 <ais523|direct> ^bf +[,.]
18:31:10 <cpu-jockey> oh
18:31:10 <fungot> Hello, world!
18:32:03 <oerjan> oh right
18:33:04 <oerjan> test a bit here
18:33:21 <oerjan> argle bargle, glop glyp glip
18:33:28 <oerjan> and about here
18:33:36 <oerjan> ^bf +[,.]
18:33:37 <fungot> here
18:33:44 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++[,.]
18:33:45 <fungot> glyp glip
18:34:32 <oerjan> it seems to write each comment over the previous ones
18:35:05 <ais523|direct> ^bf ,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.
18:35:06 <fungot> es Anthony Richard Hoare
18:35:11 <ais523|direct> ?
18:35:18 <oerjan> and if there is no ! in the ^bf program, it takes the input from the partially overwritten line
18:35:28 <ais523|direct> well, that doesn't explain my last test
18:35:32 <ais523|direct> although it does explain the other results
18:35:35 <oerjan> ais523|direct: sure it does
18:35:52 <oerjan> that's probably from the youngest comment that was long enough
18:35:57 <ais523|direct> ^bf ,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.
18:35:57 <fungot> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>
18:36:03 <ais523|direct> oh, of course
18:36:14 <ais523|direct> ^bf ,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.
18:36:15 <fungot> -0.-0
18:36:17 <oerjan> each comment just overwrites the line, probably terminating with zero or something
18:36:24 <ais523|direct> yes, I'm trying to get rid of the 0 terminators
18:37:47 <ais523|direct> ^bf ,[[[[.,],],],]
18:37:47 <fungot> get rid of the 0 terminators
18:39:14 <ais523|direct> I think once it reads a 0, it realises it has EOF
18:39:26 <oerjan> yeah
18:39:46 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:39:51 <oerjan> so you only get from the end of the bf program to the first 0
18:40:38 <oerjan> those A's up there may mean you actually got past the whole line and into some other territory?
18:40:54 <oerjan> er wait
18:41:03 <ais523|direct> it must have just been a very old long comment
18:41:21 <oerjan> it's probably zero outside the input line
18:42:17 <oerjan> oh you thought the detection happened on the _output_?
18:42:20 <oerjan> hm maybe
18:42:58 <oerjan> ^bf +++++[,+.]
18:42:59 <fungot> uif!efufdujpo!ibqqfofe!po!uif!`pvuqvu`@<CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP> ...
18:43:10 <oerjan> ah yes it was
18:43:21 <oerjan> the input is not checked for EOF it seems
18:43:30 <ais523|direct> no, I think once , returns 0 it always returns 0
18:43:41 <ais523|direct> all the evidence so far points to that
18:43:45 <oerjan> oh that may be so
18:43:53 <oerjan> ^bf +++++[,+.]
18:43:54 <fungot> tp<CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP> ...
18:44:01 <oerjan> yeah seems you are right
18:45:28 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:45:28 <fungot> e and into some other territory?
18:45:40 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:45:49 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:45:50 <fungot> .,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.
18:46:02 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:46:02 <fungot> ,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.
18:46:11 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:46:11 <fungot> f someone links a C program as well they should be careful if they plan to use ncurses
18:46:35 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:46:35 <fungot> if they plan to use ncurses
18:46:43 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:46:43 <fungot> id3tag -jack -kate -libas
18:46:56 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:46:56 <fungot> ...
18:47:03 -!- Slereah has quit.
18:47:06 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:47:06 <fungot> ...
18:47:14 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:47:14 <fungot> ...
18:47:33 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
18:47:47 <oerjan> hm i guess i'm starting to be cut off
18:48:03 <Mony> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
18:48:03 <fungot> Hello World!.
18:48:06 <Mony> :D
18:48:48 <Mony> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++..+++.<++.<<+++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
18:48:48 <fungot> 4ejjm6
18:56:42 -!- Slereah has joined.
19:04:54 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:38:51 -!- ais523|direct has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:52:25 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
19:56:19 -!- oklopol has joined.
20:01:07 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
20:03:46 -!- mib_8oomfc has joined.
20:03:51 <mib_8oomfc> Face palm of the day:
20:03:51 <mib_8oomfc> ehird@rutian:~$ sudo chown -R www-data:www-data /var/
20:03:55 <mib_8oomfc> Help.
20:03:57 -!- psygnisf_ has joined.
20:04:02 <mib_8oomfc> :x
20:04:50 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
20:06:09 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Client Quit).
20:32:26 -!- Corun has joined.
20:44:25 <Sgeo> mib_8oomfc, how could that possible be difficult to fix?
20:58:23 <AnMaster> ^bf +[,.]
20:58:23 <fungot> , how could that possible be difficult to fix?
20:58:31 <AnMaster> huh
20:58:37 <AnMaster> nice one
20:58:43 <AnMaster> ^bf ++[,.]
20:58:43 <fungot> how could that possible be difficult to fix?
20:58:49 <AnMaster> ^bf ++[,.]!t
20:58:49 <fungot> t
20:59:12 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, hm
20:59:15 <AnMaster> tricky one
20:59:18 <AnMaster> are you ehird?
20:59:41 <AnMaster> I suggest reinstalling packages if they will restore permissions to their own files
21:00:05 <AnMaster> depending on what distro you use there may be special tools to compare permissions to that packages say should be used
21:00:17 <AnMaster> I remember suse had such a tool ages ago when I used it
21:00:41 <AnMaster> similar scripts could be written easily if your distro use something like /var/db/pkg
21:00:42 <AnMaster> or such
21:00:51 <AnMaster> sed
21:01:50 <AnMaster> freebsd has mtree
21:01:58 <AnMaster> same for other *bsd I think
21:02:05 <AnMaster> that could be used to restore it somewhat
21:02:43 <AnMaster> files from ports, if they are there and not in /usr/local, may need clean up in different ways
21:04:34 <Sgeo> Oh, because they're all supposed to be owned by different accounts?
21:08:03 * oerjan wonders if anything would _really_ go wrong if he just set all of it to root:root
21:08:57 <Sgeo> Possibly a webserver would be unable to read its files
21:09:13 <Sgeo> I think
21:09:19 <oerjan> mm
21:11:13 <cpu-jockey> ^bf -[.-]
21:11:13 <fungot> ~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:987654321 ...
21:11:48 <cpu-jockey> just what i needed :p my kbd layout is broken right now
21:15:18 <Sgeo> ^bf +[.+]
21:15:18 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
21:25:55 <fizzie> Uh, that's the strangeity.
21:26:09 <fizzie> The brainfuck cat input thing, I mean.
21:26:33 <oerjan> ^bf +[,.]
21:26:33 <fungot> uck cat input thing, I mean.
21:27:16 <oerjan> looks pretty obvious what it does now
21:27:25 <fizzie> ^bf +[,.]
21:27:25 <fungot> ty obvious what it does now
21:27:28 <fizzie> hmm.
21:27:29 <fizzie> ^bf +[,.]
21:27:29 <fungot> ty obvious what it does now
21:27:41 <fizzie> Yes, but it should see the \0 at the end of the program and stop reading input there already.
21:28:03 -!- Judofyr has joined.
21:28:08 <fizzie> Well, maybe there's an extra 1+ somewhere; it does need to skip past the ! in the "^bf ...!foo" form.
21:32:50 <cpu-jockey> an exploit in brainfuck would be cool
21:44:17 <Sgeo> cpu-jockey, look for exploits in PSOX?
21:44:24 * Sgeo ducks for cover
21:44:50 * oerjan swats Sgeo. there is no escape. -----###
21:47:58 <cpu-jockey> nah, i was thinking more of a precompiled interpreter in C with a known virtual address for the tape with no boundrary checks accessible over the network .. or by pigfly express
22:06:46 -!- bsmntbombgirl has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:22:14 <mib_8oomfc> Hi thar!
22:22:48 <mib_8oomfc> my solution to the permissions shtuff: rebuild computer.
22:22:49 <mib_8oomfc> Hi AnMaster
22:23:00 <mib_8oomfc> I'm rebuilding rutian; that's why I'm on mibbit--no bouncer
22:23:02 <mib_8oomfc> Which did you reccomend?
22:31:13 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: ping
22:45:07 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
22:50:56 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, hi
22:51:07 <AnMaster> recommend what?
22:51:15 <AnMaster> as for rebuild: what about stuff on the system
22:51:19 <AnMaster> did you back that up
22:51:27 <AnMaster> as for me I recommended reinstalling all packages
22:51:37 <AnMaster> or on *bsd using mtree
22:51:42 <AnMaster> or on suse using it's fixup tool
22:51:53 <AnMaster> I think redhat has such a tool too
22:51:58 <AnMaster> don't know name
22:52:03 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: recommend bouncer
22:52:08 <AnMaster> ah
22:52:10 <AnMaster> znc is what I use
22:52:11 <mib_8oomfc> also, I backed up the data beforehand, yes.
22:52:19 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: znc seemed a little, er, bloated.
22:52:21 <AnMaster> quite flexible and such
22:52:27 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, makes you think of emacs?
22:52:30 <mib_8oomfc> Does a bouncer really require a dynamic runtime plugin mechanism?
22:52:32 <mib_8oomfc> I mean really.
22:53:10 <AnMaster> well I like znc, but does an editor need an advanced lisp based scripting language?
22:53:19 <mib_8oomfc> no. that's why I don't use emacs
22:53:44 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, I like how znc handles multiple networks: as separate users
22:53:47 <oklopol> your mom needs a scripting language
22:53:50 <oklopol> also i need sleep ->
22:53:55 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: That doesn't make sense. elaborate?
22:54:31 <oerjan> every program requires a dynamic runtime plugin mechanism, so it can more easily use its broken implementation of half of common lisp
22:54:33 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, last I checked, some bnc, not sure if it was psybnc or some other, mixed the network up, like multiplexed per user
22:54:36 <AnMaster> if you see what I mean
22:54:42 <AnMaster> it make work fine in irssi or such
22:54:45 <mib_8oomfc> I only use Freenode.
22:54:56 <AnMaster> but it is a pain in GUI clients that allow you to have a tree view
22:55:03 <AnMaster> with network and channels
22:55:07 <AnMaster> such as xchat
22:55:17 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, well I use loads of networks, so for me it was a major issue
22:56:47 <mib_8oomfc> flargl
22:56:50 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, idea: try znc out, see what you think
22:56:52 * mib_8oomfc wipes box
22:56:55 <AnMaster> may be worth it
22:56:57 <AnMaster> :)
22:56:58 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: yeah, once I rewipe
22:57:06 <AnMaster> again?
22:57:09 <AnMaster> what did you do
22:57:12 <mib_8oomfc> no, I haven't done it yet
22:57:18 <mib_8oomfc> anyhoo, most likely candidate atm is ezbounce
22:57:27 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, haven't tried that one
22:57:46 <AnMaster> but well, I tried 2 or 3 before znc, and znc did all I wanted
22:57:48 <mib_8oomfc> fun fact: the base ubuntu server install includes the package "laptop-detect".
22:57:49 <AnMaster> and more indeed
22:57:51 -!- Judofyr has quit.
22:57:54 <mib_8oomfc> you know, just in case you're running a server on a laptop.
22:57:55 <mib_8oomfc> it has to know.
22:57:58 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, crack
22:58:01 <AnMaster> y
22:58:08 <mib_8oomfc> what
22:58:24 <AnMaster> including that package on server edition is cracky
22:58:33 <mib_8oomfc> i don't think that word means what you think it means
22:58:40 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: also, libx11
22:58:44 <mib_8oomfc> because all servers are desktops
22:58:45 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, true, but it does in another channel I'm in
22:58:54 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, is *vnc there?
22:58:58 <mib_8oomfc> no
22:59:04 <mib_8oomfc> it's for ssh x11 forwarding, prolly
22:59:10 <mib_8oomfc> apt-get purge aptitude dhcp3-client dhcp3-common eject laptop-detect \ libatm1 libnewt0.52 libx11-6 libx11-data
22:59:14 <mib_8oomfc> ^ Current plan.
22:59:28 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, and cracky in this case means "coder/developer was on crack when he coded/decided/* that"
22:59:36 <mib_8oomfc> heh
23:00:00 <AnMaster> you dislike aptitude?
23:00:00 <mib_8oomfc> the dependencies in ubuntu/debian are a little strange
23:00:05 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: it's useless
23:00:10 <AnMaster> oh? ok
23:00:12 <mib_8oomfc> apt-get autoremove does its auto-dependencierating
23:00:18 <mib_8oomfc> and its terminal graphical interface is crap
23:00:40 <AnMaster> well I don't like *.deb based very much so
23:00:47 * AnMaster prefers rolling-release distros
23:00:49 <mib_8oomfc> anyway, the dependencies are weird - when I remove aptitude, it says that perl is now unused, and autoremove gets rid of it
23:00:54 <mib_8oomfc> but debconf requires perl
23:00:58 <AnMaster> such as arch and gentoo, much easier to maintain and upgrade
23:00:58 <mib_8oomfc> so I then have to manually install perl again
23:01:04 <mib_8oomfc> even though /usr/bin/perl is still there
23:01:13 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: rolling-release is possible with debian.
23:01:14 <AnMaster> heh
23:01:23 <AnMaster> is /usr/bin/perl related to /etc/alternatives?
23:01:27 <mib_8oomfc> if you apt-get upgrade often, then dist-upgrade is just something you do every now and then
23:01:29 <AnMaster> on debian stuff
23:01:29 <mib_8oomfc> and no, I don't think so.
23:01:47 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: i think it fails to remove /usr/bin/perl because the thing that's removing it is running on it.
23:01:51 <AnMaster> haha
23:01:56 <AnMaster> that is just pure insane
23:02:05 <AnMaster> can't you select packages at install time?
23:02:14 <AnMaster> I mean in some sort of install wizard or whatever
23:02:15 -!- Corun has joined.
23:02:16 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: slicehost just put an image on the thing
23:02:21 <mib_8oomfc> but I believe so, yes
23:02:21 <AnMaster> ah right
23:02:53 <mib_8oomfc> and since its ssh host thing has changed, I get a nice heap of alarmism from ssh
23:03:01 * AnMaster got 6 cds with classical music this xmas, and a few other things
23:03:10 <mib_8oomfc> (@@@@@@@@@SOMEONE IS PROBABLY MAN IN THE MIDDLING YOU AND EATING YOUR BABIES WHILE STEALING YOUR DOG@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@)
23:03:18 <AnMaster> ssh I assume!
23:03:29 <AnMaster> damn I meant: "Dr. ssh I presume!"
23:03:57 <AnMaster> very bad joke yes :P
23:04:45 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: also, I'm generally not going to use the ubuntu packages
23:04:48 <mib_8oomfc> ((for up-to-dateness))
23:04:55 <mib_8oomfc> I'm going to do ./configure && make
23:04:56 <mib_8oomfc> then sudo checkinstall
23:05:04 <mib_8oomfc> which runs make install, and analyzes what files it installs
23:05:11 <mib_8oomfc> and builds a .deb out of that, which it adds to dpkg
23:05:21 <mib_8oomfc> end result you can remove it and upgrade it cleanly using the standard tools
23:06:27 <mib_8oomfc> which is nice.
23:06:46 <AnMaster> another nice thing this xmas: 45-pieces screwdriver set with some of those strange variants, such as torx and such
23:06:58 <mib_8oomfc> heh
23:07:17 <mib_8oomfc> ... it's just an hour til real christmas.
23:07:19 <mib_8oomfc> Surreal.
23:07:23 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, not here!
23:07:30 <mib_8oomfc> I said real.
23:07:50 <AnMaster> anyway it is 00:06 the 25th here now
23:07:51 <AnMaster> :P
23:07:58 * AnMaster watches mib_8oomfc's pain
23:08:06 <mib_8oomfc> Heh
23:09:02 <mib_8oomfc> This system is quite nicely stripped down, post-cleanup.
23:09:13 <mib_8oomfc> Around 145 installed packages, including the kernel, every single library, etc.
23:15:08 <mib_8oomfc> [ehird:~] % ssh eso-std.org ehird@eso-std.org's password: Linux rutian 2.6.16.29-xen #1 SMP Sun Sep 30 04:00:13 UTC 2007 x86_64 ehird@rutian:~$
23:15:09 <mib_8oomfc> Woohoo
23:15:17 <mib_8oomfc> Speedy too!
23:16:02 <mib_8oomfc> Hokay.
23:16:05 <mib_8oomfc> Next up: web server!
23:16:09 <mib_8oomfc> Now watch AnMaster recommend lighttpd
23:16:24 <AnMaster> I do like it, but I heard ngnix was good too
23:16:30 <AnMaster> I assume you will use it
23:16:38 <mib_8oomfc> Actually, this time I'm giving Cherokee a shot. http://www.cherokee-project.com/
23:16:45 <mib_8oomfc> It supports more of what I want than nginx.
23:16:48 <mib_8oomfc> ANd it's faster(!)
23:16:57 <mib_8oomfc> it's ridiculously fast
23:16:59 <AnMaster> .com?
23:17:09 <AnMaster> hm
23:17:34 <mib_8oomfc> eh, everyone uses .com
23:17:42 <mib_8oomfc> it's GPL
23:20:00 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: it's also modular, you'll like that :P
23:20:03 <mib_8oomfc> and uses epoll and stuff.
23:22:50 * mib_8oomfc sudo checkinstall, BAM!
23:24:04 <mib_8oomfc> wtf
23:24:06 <mib_8oomfc> /bin/mkdir: cannot create directory `/var/www': No such file or directory
23:24:32 -!- Corun has quit ("DRINK SOMETHING").
23:24:42 <AnMaster> hm
23:24:56 <mib_8oomfc> it was called with -p
23:25:01 <mib_8oomfc> so it's not that the parent doesn't exist
23:25:03 <mib_8oomfc> test -z ""/var/www/images"" || /bin/mkdir -p ""/var/www/images"" /bin/mkdir: cannot create directory `/var/www': No such file or directory
23:25:19 <AnMaster> interesting
23:25:26 <AnMaster> no I'm not sure of the cause
23:25:33 <mib_8oomfc> more like wtfening
23:25:37 <AnMaster> the double quotes *does* look weird
23:25:49 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, what about permissions?
23:25:49 <mib_8oomfc> nah, in bash quoting that's irrelevant.
23:25:55 <mib_8oomfc> also, *do
23:25:57 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: permissions are fine
23:25:58 <mib_8oomfc> this is as root
23:26:03 <AnMaster> mount?
23:26:08 <AnMaster> mounted read only or such I mean
23:26:15 <mib_8oomfc> no
23:26:20 <AnMaster> strace
23:26:25 <mib_8oomfc> no :P
23:26:28 <AnMaster> that is the last resort
23:26:31 <AnMaster> and it will always work
23:26:34 <AnMaster> in such a case
23:26:46 <AnMaster> strace should easily be able to find the cause
23:27:05 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: Or, I could ask #debian if mkdir -p should ever give that error
23:27:11 <AnMaster> I would guess it is a errno failure
23:27:16 <mib_8oomfc> Well, I couldn't, because they block mibbit.
23:27:16 <AnMaster> so it uses the wrong errno
23:27:22 <mib_8oomfc> Because they're stupid.
23:27:25 <AnMaster> if you see what I mean?
23:27:33 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: I doubt it..
23:27:37 <AnMaster> strace will be the best way
23:27:41 <mib_8oomfc> ehird@rutian:~/cherokee-0.11.5$ sudo /bin/mkdir -p ""/var/www/images"" ehird@rutian:~/cherokee-0.11.5$
23:27:44 <mib_8oomfc> wfm
23:28:32 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, yes something was very weird there
23:28:36 <AnMaster> were you using sudo or su?
23:28:41 <AnMaster> when you hit the error
23:28:54 <AnMaster> if it was sudo I would try running that script using sudo su -
23:28:56 <AnMaster> then run it
23:29:12 <mib_8oomfc> sudo.
23:29:17 <mib_8oomfc> I'll read their makefile.
23:29:20 <mib_8oomfc> (Because I hate myself.
23:29:21 <AnMaster> using su may work
23:29:21 <mib_8oomfc> )
23:29:29 <AnMaster> I had sudo mess up before
23:29:43 <mib_8oomfc> This works without checkinstall.
23:29:46 <AnMaster> or if it was with checkinstall, it might have caused it
23:29:47 <mib_8oomfc> Maybe it's checkinstall's monitoring.
23:30:00 <mib_8oomfc> I could manually 'make www'.
23:30:02 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, I was comming to the same conclusion at the same time
23:30:14 <AnMaster> how does checkinstall work?
23:30:19 <AnMaster> a LD_PRELOAD?
23:30:24 <mib_8oomfc> Wish I knew.
23:30:27 <AnMaster> or install to a fake root prefix?
23:30:38 <mib_8oomfc> http://www.asic-linux.com.mx/~izto/checkinstall/
23:30:46 <mib_8oomfc> ah probably fake root
23:30:59 <AnMaster> idea what could happen if the latter: mkdir -p creates in fake root, looks in real root sees the directory wasn't created
23:31:02 <AnMaster> goes mad
23:31:05 <AnMaster> that is just a wild idea
23:31:14 <mib_8oomfc> test -z ""/usr/share/cherokee/icons/"" || /bin/mkdir -p ""/usr/share/cherokee/icons/"" /bin/mkdir: cannot create directory `/usr/share/cherokee': No such file or directory
23:31:19 <mib_8oomfc> wtf
23:31:31 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, what do you think of my last idea?
23:31:36 * mib_8oomfc considers F-ing checkinstall
23:31:38 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: possible.
23:34:14 <mib_8oomfc> I wonder what is up with it.
23:36:40 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: By the way, I can't su.
23:36:42 <mib_8oomfc> I can sudo su though.
23:38:17 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, ubuntu fail
23:38:19 <AnMaster> is the cause of that
23:38:26 <AnMaster> as far as I have heard it is easy to fix
23:38:38 <mib_8oomfc> no.
23:38:40 <mib_8oomfc> it's not failure/
23:38:44 <mib_8oomfc> I specifically did it that way.
23:38:46 <mib_8oomfc> For security.
23:38:57 <mib_8oomfc> (Root has no password, it is completely locked: you cannot log in as root.)
23:39:01 <mib_8oomfc> And that's Good.
23:39:04 <AnMaster> how is it more secure? if su already needs you to be in wheel group
23:39:10 <AnMaster> and ssh is set to deny root
23:39:19 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: because it's simply: you can't log in as root, period.
23:39:22 <mib_8oomfc> It's an extra barrier.
23:39:27 <mib_8oomfc> And "sudo su -" works.
23:39:33 <mib_8oomfc> (And doesn't involve memorizing a root password.)
23:42:39 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: so how do you use strace
23:43:05 <AnMaster> strace /bin/foo
23:43:16 <AnMaster> not sure how to check it together with checkinstall
23:43:41 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: I mean use it, once I do that.
23:43:52 <AnMaster> here is an example http://rafb.net/p/iwCj9b44.html
23:44:02 <AnMaster> it is just a debugging tool to see system calles
23:44:04 <AnMaster> calls*
23:44:10 <AnMaster> it can help see what call failed
23:44:15 <AnMaster> and figure out the cause of the failure
23:44:18 <AnMaster> what it was doing
23:44:20 <mib_8oomfc> Eh, ok.
23:44:23 <AnMaster> like reading in the wrong place
23:44:30 <AnMaster> such as I suggested above
23:44:33 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: it'll give like 50 pages of output, I bet.
23:44:52 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, well for checkinstall you probably need to use trace children option
23:44:57 <mib_8oomfc> how
23:45:00 <AnMaster> -f -- follow forks, -ff -- with output into separate files
23:45:19 <AnMaster> strace -h
23:45:24 <AnMaster> for more details :)
23:45:32 <AnMaster> it is quite easy to use once you get the hang of it
23:46:02 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, and IMO one of the best debugging tools for when system tools behave strange, gdb is better when you know what to look for in the source
23:46:08 <mib_8oomfc> Neat, 50 pages of useless output.
23:46:10 <mib_8oomfc> Awesome.........
23:46:15 <mib_8oomfc> And, of course, checkinstall needs my input.
23:46:18 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, power of grep :D
23:46:19 <mib_8oomfc> But I can't see what it wants.
23:46:20 <mib_8oomfc> AWESOME
23:46:23 <AnMaster> and
23:46:28 <AnMaster> you can redirect to separate file
23:46:39 <mib_8oomfc> Yeah okay, how
23:46:41 <AnMaster> -o file -- send trace output to FILE instead of stderr
23:46:58 <mib_8oomfc> ehird@rutian:~/cherokee-0.11.5$ ls -lh yawn -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 862K Dec 24 23:46 yawn
23:47:16 <AnMaster> strace -o yawn -ff checkinstall
23:47:19 <AnMaster> or something like that
23:47:22 <mib_8oomfc> yes.
23:47:25 <AnMaster> strace does *NOT* work across sudo
23:47:31 <mib_8oomfc> I did 'sudo strace'
23:47:33 <AnMaster> so you need to run strace on the root side too
23:47:38 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, that should work
23:48:02 <mib_8oomfc> Bah, eff this. There'll be a simple thing I'm missing.
23:48:24 <AnMaster> well sure, I just find strace very useful
23:48:33 <AnMaster> it is a great tool when used correctly
23:48:35 -!- jix_ has quit ("...").
23:48:57 <mib_8oomfc> I'll stick to my falutin' high-level languages.
23:48:58 <AnMaster> gdb, strace, valgrind there are a few I can't live without when programming/debugging. and gdb and strace even on servers
23:49:12 <AnMaster> since you want to analyse core dumps and such
23:49:19 <AnMaster> in case something fails
23:52:13 * mib_8oomfc wonders what to do.
23:52:23 <mib_8oomfc> Hmm.
23:52:27 <AnMaster> well strace could work
23:52:28 <mib_8oomfc> I will install a bouncer while I think.
23:52:40 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, try them out
23:52:44 <AnMaster> there are several nice ones
23:52:51 <AnMaster> znc, ezbounce and so on
23:52:58 <mib_8oomfc> The options as I see them are ezbounce, znc and miau.
23:53:03 <mib_8oomfc> comex uses miau and it seems to be buggy.
23:53:09 <AnMaster> miau I haven't heard of before
23:53:10 <mib_8oomfc> znc seems a bit bloated for my tastes.
23:53:14 <mib_8oomfc> So I guess I will try ezbounce.
23:53:23 <AnMaster> because I use znc?
23:53:40 <mib_8oomfc> no.
23:53:45 <mib_8oomfc> but it looked a bit bloated.
23:53:48 <AnMaster> hm ok
23:55:08 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: does znc offer the only reason I use a bouncer: it will log certain (not all) channels you specify, and, when you reconnect, it will play it back
23:55:17 <mib_8oomfc> i.e., send you all the messages/parts/joins/nicks/whatever since you left
23:55:21 <mib_8oomfc> then erase that log
23:55:26 <mib_8oomfc> so apart from timestamps, you get a "continuous" window
23:55:29 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, it has away log, I never checked if it can exclude channels or not
23:55:30 <mib_8oomfc> it's really great
23:55:34 <AnMaster> since I want to log all channels
23:55:39 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: does it play it back in that manner, though?
23:55:41 <AnMaster> it also has full log, again I never checked details
23:55:49 <mib_8oomfc> also, I dont' want to log high-traffic channels like #haskell
23:55:49 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, it plays it back when you reconnect
23:55:49 <mib_8oomfc> but
23:55:51 <AnMaster> with timestamps
23:55:55 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: with timestamps?
23:55:55 <mib_8oomfc> How?
23:56:00 <AnMaster> timestamps are added to the front of the line
23:56:03 <mib_8oomfc> Ew.
23:56:04 <AnMaster> like:
23:56:15 <mib_8oomfc> Like.
23:56:16 <AnMaster> [12:00] rest of line here
23:56:23 <mib_8oomfc> can you disable that?
23:56:27 <AnMaster> with the nick of the person in the normal place
23:56:34 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, think so, but I want it that way
23:56:44 <AnMaster> so I'm not sure
23:56:57 <AnMaster> but you probably can by /msg *away foo
23:57:00 <AnMaster> or something like that
23:57:10 <AnMaster> yes it uses /msg *status /msg *whatever and so on
23:57:13 <AnMaster> with that *
23:57:17 <AnMaster> for controlling functions
23:57:17 <mib_8oomfc> ...really?
23:57:19 <mib_8oomfc> Why?
23:57:31 <mib_8oomfc> Why not a special command, as in /quote ZnC
23:57:33 <mib_8oomfc> *ZNC
23:57:49 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/3rKuw640.html
23:57:56 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, that works too
23:58:01 <AnMaster> iirc
23:58:11 <AnMaster> yep it does
23:58:33 <AnMaster> <*away> Commands: away [-quiet], back [-quiet], delete <num|all>, ping, show, save, enabletimer, disabletimer, settimer <secs>, timer
23:58:33 <AnMaster> hm
23:58:34 <AnMaster> nice
23:58:39 <AnMaster> oh wait
23:58:41 <AnMaster> that is auto away
23:58:43 <AnMaster> not away log
23:58:51 * AnMaster checks what module is the right one
23:59:05 <mib_8oomfc> http://en.znc.in/wiki/Modules
23:59:09 <mib_8oomfc> I hate software like this.
23:59:21 <mib_8oomfc> "Our core program does nothing! You have to trawl through our huge module list and pick them out. SO ELEGANT"
23:59:38 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, hm I actually like it that way
23:59:46 <AnMaster> ircds where you can configure what you want exactly
23:59:57 <AnMaster> I know an ircd that even has server-server linking as a module
23:59:58 <AnMaster> :)
2008-12-25
00:00:11 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: that doesn't excuse putting core functionality in modules.
00:00:44 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, I swear there are more modules than when I last read that page you linked....
00:01:16 <AnMaster> some are not included in core package hm
00:01:19 <mib_8oomfc> I should write my own damn bouncer.
00:01:26 <mib_8oomfc> And every piece of software.
00:01:27 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, sounds nice :)
00:01:28 <mib_8oomfc> I can't trust others.
00:01:37 <mib_8oomfc> They suck. :P
00:02:06 <AnMaster> I used to have my own bouncer, but znc was easier, and had what I wanted, rather than coding the missing features myself I changed to znc
00:02:17 <mib_8oomfc> Happy xmas.
00:02:21 -!- mib_8oomfc has set topic: Real christmas.
00:02:34 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, happy day after xmas
00:02:36 <comex> miau is very simple, one network only (I use a script to launch multiple miaus)
00:02:43 -!- AnMaster has set topic: Real christmas | The day after the real one.
00:02:58 <AnMaster> comex, ew
00:03:21 <mib_8oomfc> comex: does it do the playback?
00:03:34 <comex> mib_: yes, it has a "quicklog"
00:03:39 <mib_8oomfc> explain
00:03:51 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, znc does playback on every channel, I'm not sure if you can turn it off for some channels, but it may be quite possible
00:04:09 * AnMaster looks in the web UI
00:04:15 <comex> when you log in, it replays the quicklog. I don't remember how configurable it is
00:04:29 <mib_8oomfc> comex: on the original channel?
00:04:40 <comex> yes
00:05:21 <mib_8oomfc> the thing is, IMO irc bouncing isn't exactly _hard_. when the user is connected, you do just forward everything. when they disconnect, log everything you get from the server. when they reconnect, send the log to them and erase it.
00:05:46 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, znc can do that easily
00:05:49 <comex> oh and it does support multiplec onnections (although I assume all others do as well)
00:05:57 <AnMaster> what I'm not sure is if it is per channel
00:05:59 <AnMaster> as you requested
00:06:03 <mib_8oomfc> why do you need a frobtapulous perl modulized C++ elegant blaaaaah thing just to do that
00:06:17 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, you *CAN* turn off the timestamps
00:06:18 <AnMaster> it seems
00:06:24 <mib_8oomfc> comex: what about that weird away bug
00:06:25 <AnMaster> by setting the timestamp format string to empty
00:06:27 <AnMaster> :D
00:06:46 <comex> mib_8oomfc, you can disable that
00:06:50 <comex> i should, just lazy :p
00:06:50 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, so that issue is solved
00:06:50 <mib_8oomfc> comex: neat.
00:06:53 <mib_8oomfc> i bet i could write a bouncer that makes me happy in like 50 lines of Haskell
00:07:06 <AnMaster> do it then
00:07:13 <mib_8oomfc> not now :P
00:07:34 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, one thing I like with znc is that you can make it automatically add/remove channels to the "auto join on connect" list if you want
00:07:39 <AnMaster> that is configurable of course
00:07:47 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: but my client does that
00:07:50 <mib_8oomfc> :P
00:08:03 <mib_8oomfc> the bouncer should:
00:08:08 <mib_8oomfc> - play back things it saw when disconnected
00:08:21 <mib_8oomfc> - when it gets disconnected, reconnect, send out what commands you've put in its config, and join channels it was in
00:08:24 <mib_8oomfc> 'sit
00:08:32 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, znc can do those two
00:08:38 <AnMaster> there is the perform module for the second
00:08:39 <mib_8oomfc> to be honest, I could probably write _everything_ I want in 50 lines of haskell
00:08:42 <AnMaster> I use it to auto-oper up
00:08:45 <AnMaster> on another network
00:08:49 <AnMaster> for example
00:09:11 <AnMaster> away can do the first
00:09:18 <AnMaster> so yes znc can do those
00:09:25 <AnMaster> and it will auto reconnect
00:09:29 <mib_8oomfc> i'll go with miau for now
00:09:30 <mib_8oomfc> it seems ko
00:09:31 <mib_8oomfc> ok
00:09:41 <AnMaster> I haven't used the nickserv module with znc since I use other strange services
00:09:45 <AnMaster> account based and such
00:10:10 <mib_8oomfc> --disable-ascii-art Disables fancy ASCII banner miau prints at start-up and when a client conencts to miau.
00:10:16 <AnMaster> haha
00:10:17 <mib_8oomfc> that kind of thing is why I hated psybnc :P
00:10:25 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, znc doesn't have such a thing
00:10:29 <mib_8oomfc> PSYCHOID AND THE MOST COOL LAM3RS GROUP EFNET
00:10:33 <mib_8oomfc> i know it by heart
00:10:39 <AnMaster> ouch
00:10:41 <AnMaster> that one HURT
00:10:43 <Asztal> I hated psybnc for some other reason, can't remember what it was exactly
00:10:45 <AnMaster> BADLY
00:10:55 <Asztal> it confused my client :(
00:11:01 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: it prints that after it gives you the 1337 ascii art of "psybnc" when you start it up
00:11:13 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, still I suggest you try several bouncers, including ezbounce and znc
00:11:33 <mib_8oomfc> I'll use this until I write my own bouncer... tomorrow. :-P
00:11:44 <mib_8oomfc> It occurs to me I could just start writing it now.
00:11:57 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, as for znc starting I think it prints "starting znc\nloading modules\n forking into background" or something like that
00:12:00 <AnMaster> a few lines of status
00:12:29 <mib_8oomfc> i shall call my bouncer bbbbounce
00:12:38 <mib_8oomfc> B4 for short.
00:12:46 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, from the openbsd release song
00:12:48 <AnMaster> for 3.9
00:12:50 <AnMaster> I assume
00:12:52 <mib_8oomfc> pronounced "BU-BU-BU-BOUNCE"
00:12:55 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: er, no?
00:13:15 <mib_8oomfc> If you think I'd quote an openbsd release song you don't know me very well :P
00:13:17 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, err they said "bu-bu-bu-bounce him on your knee" in that one
00:13:25 <mib_8oomfc> Eh.
00:13:27 <AnMaster> so that is what everyone will think
00:13:36 <AnMaster> sorry about that
00:13:43 <mib_8oomfc> Yes, because other people will know about this :-P
00:13:56 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, 100% so far did :P
00:14:03 <mib_8oomfc> I meant, my bouncer
00:14:13 <mib_8oomfc> I'll be surprised if it leaves rutian/pastie.org
00:14:19 <AnMaster> ah
00:14:35 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
00:16:09 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, 0.6 mm screwhead rocks, yeah tiny indeed
00:16:18 <mib_8oomfc> lol.
00:16:25 <AnMaster> yes there is one here
00:16:27 <AnMaster> like that
00:16:28 <mib_8oomfc> heh, my bouncer will report server disconnections weirdly:
00:16:34 <AnMaster> oh?
00:16:47 <AnMaster> some nethack-like phrase?
00:16:56 <mib_8oomfc> :b4!b4@b4 PRIVMSG yourname :stuff here
00:17:05 <mib_8oomfc> where b4!b4@b4 doesn't actually exist, of course.
00:17:15 <AnMaster> that would be seriously confusing
00:17:25 <AnMaster> actually
00:17:28 <AnMaster> that is what znc does
00:17:29 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: the reason it has ! and @ is to account for irc parsers
00:17:31 <mib_8oomfc> so they don't trip up
00:17:32 <AnMaster> it messages from *status
00:17:34 <AnMaster> saying:
00:17:34 <mib_8oomfc> actually, it'll be !n=b4
00:17:43 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: right, but *status has a reasonable host name there
00:17:44 <mib_8oomfc> and stuff
00:17:45 <mib_8oomfc> I assume.
00:17:48 <mib_8oomfc> and actually exists
00:17:50 <mib_8oomfc> (you can send to it)
00:17:59 <AnMaster> *status!znc@znc.in
00:18:02 <AnMaster> from thgat
00:18:03 <AnMaster> that*
00:18:19 <mib_8oomfc> :*b4*!n=b4@b4 PRIVMSG :Disconnected from server, reconnecting...
00:18:33 <AnMaster> sounds quite sane
00:18:45 <AnMaster> it looks very similar to the znc one
00:18:56 <AnMaster> I think it says: "Lost connection to server. Reconnecting..."
00:18:59 <AnMaster> or something like that
00:19:17 <AnMaster> don't remember on the top of my head (from the top? which is the English idiom?)
00:19:45 <mib_8oomfc> off the top
00:19:50 <AnMaster> right
00:21:25 <mib_8oomfc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_License
00:21:26 <mib_8oomfc> I want to use this
00:22:01 <mib_8oomfc> in fact, I'm going to use it
00:22:19 <mib_8oomfc> I mean, why not?
00:22:25 <AnMaster> "Aside from rhyming, the Poetic License is unique in its use of the first person, rather than passive legalese form, as well as the assurance of best effort. Many such licenses specifically distinguish between text and software, while the Poetic License may be applied to any work. Unlike other BSD-styled licenses, which explicitly require the copyright notice and 'this' notice to appear in all copies
00:22:25 <AnMaster> of software and documentation, the Poetic License is vague as to the condition upon which these rights are granted. 'These rights, on this notice, rely' implies that the notice must remain in all copies, shared and/or modified."
00:22:25 <AnMaster> hm
00:22:29 <AnMaster> there may be issues there
00:22:41 <mib_8oomfc> Eh; I'm not planning to test this in court.
00:22:59 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: If the DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO PUBLIC LICENSE, VERSION 2 has been testified to probably be valid in court by Debian lawyers, I'm sure this will to
00:23:03 <AnMaster> 1) assurance of best effort 2) the Poetic License is vague as to the condition upon which these rights are granted
00:23:07 <mib_8oomfc> (It has one clause, 1. You just DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO)
00:23:22 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, it has been found valid in a court?
00:23:23 <AnMaster> heh ok
00:23:26 <mib_8oomfc> no
00:23:33 <mib_8oomfc> but the debian lawyers said they thought it would be valid
00:23:37 <AnMaster> ah
00:23:40 <mib_8oomfc> which is pretty much all the gpl has had until recently too
00:26:08 <mib_8oomfc> haskell is delicious
00:27:18 <Slereah> *Scheme
00:27:27 <mib_8oomfc> no, haskell.
00:28:14 <Slereah> Haskell is bad.
00:28:56 <mib_8oomfc> yeah cuz monads are sooo complex
00:29:23 <Slereah> Also it has an ugly syntax.
00:29:31 * Slereah <3 parenthesises
00:29:45 <mib_8oomfc> Haskell's syntax is beautiful, maybe you're just bad at it.
00:30:16 <Asztal> I find infix more readable, especially with things like `isPrefixOf`
00:30:28 <Slereah> It's not about readability
00:30:32 <Slereah> It's about beauty :o
00:30:38 <mib_8oomfc> Haskell's syntax is beautiful
00:30:49 <mib_8oomfc> what you're saying is equivalent to
00:30:54 <mib_8oomfc> Slereah: scheme sucks, there's too many parentheses
00:30:57 <mib_8oomfc> i'd mess them up!!
00:31:00 <mib_8oomfc> uglyyyyyyyy
00:31:59 <Slereah> Don't diss scheme bro
00:32:41 <mib_8oomfc> Don't diss Haskell.
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07:35:34 <bsmntbombgirl> this shit is ridiculous
07:35:37 <bsmntbombgirl> oops wrong window
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14:35:28 <AnMaster> heh
14:35:40 * ais523|direct wonders what AnMaster is hehing at
14:35:48 <AnMaster> some stuff above
14:35:58 <AnMaster> anyway hi ais523|direct
14:36:10 <ais523|direct> hi, and merry Christmas if it's today for you
14:36:12 <ais523|direct> it is for me
14:36:18 <AnMaster> it was yesterday for me
14:36:26 <AnMaster> we celebrate on the 24th here
14:36:44 <ais523|direct> yes, I know many countries celebrate on the 24th, wasn't sure whether you did or not
14:36:46 <AnMaster> same in rest of Scandinavia
14:37:23 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, seasons greetings to you
14:37:28 <ais523|direct> thanks
14:37:43 <ais523|direct> although in theory, I reckon you could get away with a season's greetings any time in Winter
14:37:46 * AnMaster is upgrading a remote freebsd server atm
14:37:53 <ais523|direct> although maybe it's an English idiom I don't really get either
14:38:01 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, technically it could work at any point during the year
14:38:06 <ais523|direct> well, yes
14:38:07 <AnMaster> just different seasons
14:38:12 <ais523|direct> I was thinking that too...
14:38:45 <AnMaster> "<ais523|direct> although maybe it's an English idiom I don't really get either" <-- well it is the religious/customs neutral version basically
14:38:58 <ais523|direct> ah, maybe
14:39:09 <ais523|direct> equally meaningless in all traditions
14:39:17 <AnMaster> oh yes and not offensive to anyone
14:39:20 <ais523|direct> just like the acronym UTC, which was chosen because it's wrong both in English and in French
14:39:30 <AnMaster> hah indeed
14:40:33 <ais523|direct> incidentally, the hello world in Brainfuck I'm trying to debug atm is 929086 bytes
14:40:43 <ais523|direct> that's run-length encoded, too...
14:40:55 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, wtf?
14:41:03 <AnMaster> oh gcc-bf?
14:41:03 <ais523|direct> much bigger without, but that's partly because some of the pointer code has hundreds of thousands of >s in a row
14:41:04 <AnMaster> right
14:41:05 <ais523|direct> and yes
14:41:20 <ais523|direct> there's a bug in my pointer handling that I know about, just haven't coded a fix yet
14:41:26 <ais523|direct> there are a lot more bugs I don't know about
14:41:48 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, considering puts() fputs() and write() I did some tests recetly
14:41:52 <AnMaster> recently*
14:41:57 <ais523|direct> anyway, the gcc-bf distribution, not counting the gcc or newlib sources, is 929086 bytes
14:42:03 <ais523|direct> um...
14:42:07 <ais523|direct> 121507
14:42:09 <ais523|direct> copied the wrong number
14:42:10 <AnMaster> someone claimed g++ -static generated much larger hello world than gcc -static
14:42:13 <AnMaster> and that was true
14:42:26 <AnMaster> until I added -nostdlib /usr/lib/libc.a
14:42:38 <AnMaster> had to change to use write() too instead of puts()
14:42:48 <AnMaster> and _exit(0); instead of return 0;
14:42:54 <ais523|direct> you can get gcc-bf programs a lot smaller by avoiding the stdlib
14:42:56 <AnMaster> no idea why for the latter
14:42:59 <ais523|direct> I know why
14:43:02 <ais523|direct> it's to do with atexit
14:43:05 <AnMaster> oh?
14:43:06 <ais523|direct> and the need to close open files when you use exit
14:43:09 <AnMaster> ah
14:43:12 <AnMaster> right
14:43:15 <ais523|direct> that means stdio needs to be linked in
14:43:22 <ais523|direct> gcc-bf's default runtime has an exit() in
14:43:38 <ais523|direct> which means it links stdio, that's why the hello world's so large
14:43:43 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, anyway doing it that way got the size down to 6.6 KB for each. and *exactly the same binaries after strip*
14:43:46 <AnMaster> from g++ and gcc
14:43:54 <AnMaster> same md5sum
14:43:55 <ais523|direct> to get saner program sizes, I have a -naked option on the linker which doesn't include a limit
14:44:13 <ais523|direct> AnMaster: I'm not surprised, in theory C++ has no overhead compared to C if you don't use C++-specific features
14:44:27 <ais523|direct> on the other hand, good C style is bad C++ style
14:44:29 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, yes I had to add -fno-exceptions to make it compile that way
14:44:36 <AnMaster> for g++
14:45:00 <AnMaster> otherwise I got strange link time errors about symbols like __unwind_frame or such
14:45:03 <AnMaster> don't remember details
14:45:16 <AnMaster> anyway for bf stdio, that should be one area worth optimising a lot
14:45:24 <ais523|direct> yes
14:45:27 <ais523|direct> I already have a bf.h
14:45:30 <AnMaster> maybe hand coding the stdio stuff to be as small as possible for gcc-bf
14:45:33 <ais523|direct> which only contains __bf_out and __bf_in atm
14:45:43 <ais523|direct> although I don't really need the double-underscores if it's in a dedicated header
14:45:47 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, well it should be able to replace the newlib stdio and such
14:45:56 <ais523|direct> that's a project for later
14:46:04 <ais523|direct> anyway, here's a gcc-bf build command line: buildinto/bin/bf-gcc -Wl,-progress,-abi,-asm,-annotate,-map,-rle,-g,-trace tests/pointer.c --save-temps
14:46:17 <ais523|direct> that's due to me putting in all the debug options at once
14:46:19 <AnMaster> because I bet that is one part that will save a lot if you replace
14:46:29 <ais523|direct> and yes, a new stdio would be nice, but difficult
14:46:30 <AnMaster> -abi,-asm?
14:46:38 <AnMaster> hm
14:46:38 <ais523|direct> -abi and -asm save two of the temporaries the linker uses
14:46:42 <AnMaster> ah
14:46:44 <AnMaster> makes sense
14:46:57 <ais523|direct> -map does just what it does in any other linker (although it often has a different name)
14:47:04 <ais523|direct> -progress shows progress bars, because it's slow
14:47:18 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, why would a special bf stdio library optimized for size/speed be difficult?
14:47:26 <AnMaster> I mean apart from bf always being a pain
14:47:26 <ais523|direct> because stdio itself is difficult
14:47:30 <ais523|direct> at least to pin down all the corner cases
14:47:36 <ais523|direct> I suppose you could have a nonconforming stdio-lite
14:47:43 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, if I were to write it I would probably do something like C with inline bf
14:48:03 <ais523|direct> could be interesting
14:48:16 <ais523|direct> although there isn't all that much free tape atm
14:48:25 <AnMaster> maybe parts could be pure bf even
14:48:35 <ais523|direct> well, most of gcc-bf doesn't generate pure bf
14:48:36 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, you may need to increase memory then?
14:48:48 <ais523|direct> not really, I could just create extra memory
14:48:55 <AnMaster> oh?
14:49:02 <AnMaster> you said not a lot of free taoe
14:49:03 <AnMaster> tape*
14:49:15 <ais523|direct> the problem's just that every tape cell is already used for something, well most of them
14:49:24 <ais523|direct> but I could just move everything to the right and use new cells at the left, for instance
14:50:14 <AnMaster> hm?
14:50:15 <AnMaster> what?
14:50:35 <ais523|direct> AnMaster: well, the BF tape is basically used to emulate a CPU
14:50:41 <AnMaster> indeed
14:50:45 <ais523|direct> (the CPU was designed to be easy to emulate in BF)
14:50:51 <AnMaster> hah
14:51:33 <ais523|direct> I also have a bf interp designed specifically for debugging gcc-bf
14:51:37 <ais523|direct> which can read its RLE output
14:51:39 <AnMaster> hm nice
14:51:42 <ais523|direct> and reads its comments too
14:51:51 <AnMaster> well, right, but can't you just do like the program does
14:51:52 <ais523|direct> so it knows quickly when something went wrong, and does a core-dump of the tape
14:51:53 <AnMaster> malloc a block
14:51:56 <AnMaster> and use it??
14:52:01 <ais523|direct> yes, but mallocing's pretty slow
14:52:06 <AnMaster> ah right
14:52:08 <ais523|direct> and besides, it involves pointers
14:52:10 <ais523|direct> and they're very slow
14:52:14 <AnMaster> what about static buffers?
14:52:25 <AnMaster> that doesn't need to involve pointers
14:52:35 <ais523|direct> you can have static buffers just fine
14:52:41 <AnMaster> since you can pre-calculate where in the memory the buffer is
14:52:53 <ais523|direct> if you allocate a static buffer, gcc-bf will reserve every 6th element in a region of the tape (of its own choice) for it
14:52:56 <AnMaster> you don't need any sort of indirection when accessing said buffer
14:52:57 <ais523|direct> and go there with > and <
14:53:03 <ais523|direct> directly
14:53:10 <AnMaster> inded
14:53:10 <ais523|direct> so static buffers are pretty efficient in it
14:53:26 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, that could be an issue if you don't know your exact current position?
14:53:30 <AnMaster> say, in a recursive call
14:53:38 <ais523|direct> gcc-bf always knows its exact current position
14:53:47 <AnMaster> really? hm ok
14:53:48 <ais523|direct> that's one of the main architectural choices I made in it
14:54:02 <ais523|direct> not only that, but -annotate writes the position as comments in the BF code
14:54:15 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, how can it know that if the stack frame is of unkown size?
14:54:19 <AnMaster> say due to using alloca()
14:54:28 <ais523|direct> it uses symbolic positions
14:54:34 <AnMaster> hm ok
14:54:36 <ais523|direct> %sp means it's pointing to the top of stack, for instance
14:54:44 <AnMaster> well I mean in the bf code
14:54:47 <AnMaster> that is generated in the end
14:55:21 <AnMaster> how can it know a fixed count of > or < needed to move to a static buffer and to get back
14:55:40 <ais523|direct> because it always moves via a particular location
14:55:47 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, ah, and that is?
14:55:58 <ais523|direct> there's a dead zone of 6 cells, which is never used
14:56:02 <ais523|direct> at least, always 0
14:56:11 <ais523|direct> it always knows how to get to one of the cells in that range
14:56:16 <ais523|direct> (and by extension, any given cell in that range)
14:56:33 <AnMaster> right, and this dead zone is used for scratch storage or?
14:56:38 <AnMaster> during calculations
14:56:39 <AnMaster> or
14:56:43 <ais523|direct> no, it's used for homing the pointer
14:56:51 <ais523|direct> many parts of memory are full of 1s
14:57:09 <ais523|direct> which means, for instance, starting at the stack pointer <<<<<[[<<<<<<]<<<<<<] will always land on a particular cell in the dead zone
14:57:27 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, right
14:57:30 <ais523|direct> because every 6th cell contains a 1, apart from the start of a stack frame
14:57:41 <ais523|direct> and stack frames have to be at least 2 bytes, according to the processor ABI
14:57:53 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, you have a copy of the stack frame every 6th byte!?
14:58:00 <ais523|direct> no
14:58:06 <ais523|direct> it wouldn't fit
14:58:10 <AnMaster> what you mean then
14:58:19 <ais523|direct> the set of every 6th bytes together lets you determine where the stack frames are
14:58:27 <ais523|direct> they're 1 if a stack frame doesn't start there, or 0 if it does
14:58:55 <AnMaster> ok
14:59:06 <AnMaster> so you can easily search for it
14:59:07 <AnMaster> right
14:59:09 <ais523|direct> yes
14:59:18 <AnMaster> how do you know in what direction?
14:59:21 <ais523|direct> two 0s in a row mean you're either at top of stack (to the right) or in the dead zone (to the left)
14:59:34 <ais523|direct> and whenever the exact numerical location isn't known, we're to the right of the dead zone
14:59:39 <ais523|direct> to the left of that is just registers and temp cells
14:59:44 <AnMaster> ah
15:00:18 <AnMaster> so to move to a static area you just move to the dead zone then move a fixed number of cells from it?
15:00:22 <ais523|direct> yes
15:00:31 <AnMaster> this makes me wonder how gcc-bf would handle buffer overflow
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15:00:47 <ais523|direct> it handles buffer overflow the same way as any other processor, it goes and overwrites memory
15:00:59 <AnMaster> right, could it corrupt the internal state
15:01:04 <ais523|direct> weird stuff happens on buffer /underflow/, though, if it happened to be at the start of memory
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15:01:17 <ais523|direct> no, because the pointers are multiplied by 6 internally
15:01:19 <AnMaster> also did I understand you right, for every 6 cells in memory there is one with actual program memory?
15:01:28 <ais523|direct> not exactly
15:01:33 <AnMaster> no?
15:01:36 <ais523|direct> the program itself is compiled into BF, not into bytecode and interpreted
15:01:42 <ais523|direct> so the program is the program, it isn't stored on the tape anywhere
15:01:46 <AnMaster> indeed
15:01:52 <AnMaster> but I mean as in heap
15:01:53 <ais523|direct> every 6 cells, there are 2 which hold memory, one on the stack and one on the heap
15:01:54 <AnMaster> or stack
15:01:59 <AnMaster> ah
15:02:06 <AnMaster> so stack and heap are interleaved!?
15:02:07 <ais523|direct> yes
15:02:14 <AnMaster> and are separate segments?
15:02:15 <AnMaster> heh
15:02:19 <ais523|direct> yes, separate segments
15:02:21 <AnMaster> what does the pointers look like then
15:02:33 <AnMaster> I mean, segment selector first or what?
15:02:42 <ais523|direct> 0x00?????? for a function pointer, 0x01?????? for a stack pointer, 0x02?????? for a heap/static pointer
15:02:55 <ais523|direct> segment selector's in the MSB
15:02:55 <AnMaster> hm interesting
15:03:10 <AnMaster> byte or bit?
15:03:14 <ais523|direct> and the 4 bytes have weightings of 3, 65536*6, 256*6, 6 cells
15:03:19 <ais523|direct> they're byte pointers
15:03:23 <AnMaster> hm right
15:03:41 <AnMaster> I meant, MSB could be MS(Byte|Bit)
15:03:53 <ais523|direct> ah, ok, but it's byte in this case
15:03:58 <ais523|direct> the hex representations should have given it away
15:04:07 <AnMaster> ah yes
15:04:23 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, hm function pointers support jumping anywhere or?
15:04:28 <ais523|direct> yes
15:04:37 <ais523|direct> the entire program's basically in a massive switch statement, written in BF
15:04:44 <AnMaster> that could probably be optimized away
15:04:48 <ais523|direct> at the end of any basic block, the address of the next basic block is set
15:04:56 <ais523|direct> and actually, that's very efficient with a decent interp and hardly uses any code
15:05:26 <ais523|direct> (the hyper-efficient way to end a program in gcc-bf is neither exit(0) nor _exit(0), it's goto *(void*)0;)
15:05:36 <ais523|direct> although the last is somewhat compiler-specific
15:05:40 <ais523|direct> and makes no sense in standard C
15:05:48 <AnMaster> since you only need to jump to start of function, setjmp() calls, and for flow control inside functions (which could be a smaller switch for each function): labels, while, for, if and so on
15:06:21 <ais523|direct> being able to jump anywhere is pretty convenient, and it's not a computational order slowdown thing
15:06:42 <ais523|direct> it switches on the bottom 24 bits of the pointers, in blocks of 8 bits at a time
15:06:43 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, I would assume it is undefined in C if you jump to any memory address that isn't a function pointer you got in a legal way
15:06:51 <ais523|direct> well, yes it is
15:07:01 <ais523|direct> but you'd still need to be able to jump to the address of any function
15:07:20 <AnMaster> hm so each block, that means each line or each ; or what?
15:07:23 <ais523|direct> also, it would be nice if gcc-bf supported C++ too, and g++ does weird things with code pointers to handle exceptions
15:07:41 <ais523|direct> a block's a set of commands with linear control flow
15:07:53 <ais523|direct> as in, no jumping into or out of it
15:07:53 <AnMaster> ah so you can't jump inside such a block?
15:08:02 <ais523|direct> no, nor call a function inside a block
15:08:04 <AnMaster> but that makes me wonder
15:08:11 <ais523|direct> so they tend to start and end in the middle of statements
15:08:19 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, ouch right
15:08:21 <AnMaster> anyway
15:08:26 <AnMaster> this makes me wonder a bit
15:08:27 <ais523|direct> can make it slightly confusing to debug
15:08:42 <ais523|direct> anyway, I have to go for a while, Christmas dinner
15:08:48 <AnMaster> wouldn't it be possible to optimize some stuff better if you could reduce jump points
15:08:49 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, cya
15:09:07 <AnMaster> for example << and then >> but with jump related stuff in between
15:11:37 <AnMaster> jump related stuff never used
15:12:29 <AnMaster> or: while (i != 0) { j += my_static_array[i--]; }
15:12:40 <AnMaster> that would probably be a for loop in most C programs
15:12:54 <AnMaster> but this way is more BF-like
15:13:20 <AnMaster> that while loop could probably be turned into a very simple and basic bf loop
15:33:30 -!- mib_vvzkm4 has joined.
15:33:38 <mib_vvzkm4> Yo people.
15:33:40 <mib_vvzkm4> Hi ais523|direct
15:33:41 * mib_vvzkm4 = ehird
15:40:50 <mib_vvzkm4> Nobody here? Not even AnMaster ?
15:40:58 <AnMaster> hm?
15:40:59 <AnMaster> yes I am
15:41:11 <mib_vvzkm4> Damn. :P
15:41:11 <AnMaster> ais523 went to eat xmas dinner
15:41:18 <mib_vvzkm4> That makes sense.
15:42:48 <mib_vvzkm4> thought:
15:42:51 <mib_vvzkm4> if we have the Poetic License
15:42:54 <mib_vvzkm4> we need the Driver's License
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15:51:53 <ais523|direct> back
15:52:04 <ais523|direct> mib_vvzkm4: there's the Artistic Licence too
15:52:09 <ais523|direct> and all this time, I never realised it was a pun
15:53:26 <mib_vvzkm4> the Poetic License is nice.
15:53:27 <ais523|direct> hmm... eso-std.org's still down
15:53:32 * mib_vvzkm4 is using it for the IRC bouncer he's writing
15:53:34 <ais523|direct> merry christmas ehird, anyway
15:53:37 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: yes, I haven't got cherokee up yet
15:53:41 <mib_vvzkm4> I left it yesterday
15:53:52 <ais523|direct> the artistic licence is, by chance, the only one to be tested in court
15:54:04 <mib_vvzkm4> had some problems with checkinstall
15:54:12 <mib_vvzkm4> so, gonna write a bouncer while i think how to fix them :P
15:54:21 <mib_vvzkm4> an #esotericians christmas!
15:54:40 <ais523|direct> it's boxing day for AnMaster
15:54:43 <ais523|direct> or whatever thehy call it over there
15:55:02 <mib_vvzkm4> "christmas day 1"
15:55:07 <mib_vvzkm4> they celebrate on "christmas eve"
15:55:13 <mib_vvzkm4> and have two christmas days after that, sans celebration
15:55:21 <ais523|direct> they celebrate on dec 24, nothing wrong with that
15:55:22 <mib_vvzkm4> ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:55:25 <ais523|direct> after all, the date's uncertain
15:55:29 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: but they call it christmas eve
15:56:00 <AnMaster> well that is christmas day and "secondday christmas" (literal translation, it sounds "Olde Swedish" in Swedish, basically that form only exists in that specific phrase)
15:56:09 <AnMaster> these days
15:58:27 * ais523|direct wonders where to put the current version of gcc-bf
15:58:37 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: filebin.ca?
15:58:40 <AnMaster> how large is it?
15:58:42 <ais523|direct> it's nowhere near finished, but it's finished enough to try to run some specially constructed programs in
15:59:03 <ais523|direct> AnMaster: a bit over 100K, not counting the source to gcc and to newlib which you already have IIRC
15:59:12 <mib_vvzkm4> filebin.ca
15:59:14 <AnMaster> well I mean the stuff you would upload
15:59:17 <ais523|direct> also I got rid of the calls to realpath, I think it still works
16:00:00 <AnMaster> heh
16:00:19 <ais523|direct> http://filebin.ca/txobpp/gcc-bf.tar.gz then
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16:03:09 <AnMaster> will try it later
16:03:13 <AnMaster> bit busy atm
16:03:20 <AnMaster> upgrading a freebsd server remotely
16:03:22 <ais523|direct> that's fine
16:03:37 <ais523|direct> no need to try it right away, just thought I'd transfer the file while we were both online
16:03:49 <ais523|direct> it's at the state of "in theory almost finished, in practice incredibly buggy"
16:04:06 <ais523|direct> and atm I'm just using a development model of "write test case, repeatedly fix the first bug it discovers until it works"
16:05:14 <mib_vvzkm4> I cannot believe there isn't a simple sha1 :: String -> String in Haskell's Hackage library store.
16:05:28 <mib_vvzkm4> I don't WANT ByteString -> Digest, damnit.
16:05:32 <ais523|direct> sha1s aren't strings, they're numbers...
16:05:37 <ais523|direct> and probably it's to do with unicod
16:05:37 <mib_vvzkm4> fine
16:05:39 <mib_vvzkm4> String -> Integer
16:05:39 <ais523|direct> *unicode
16:05:44 <mib_vvzkm4> and it is, but it's irrelevant
16:05:47 <mib_vvzkm4> I found one that does it nicely
16:05:49 <mib_vvzkm4> but it's not in hackage
16:05:52 <mib_vvzkm4> for god knows what reason
16:05:58 <mib_vvzkm4> I could add it
16:06:05 <mib_vvzkm4> but i'd have to fiddle with it to make it work properly
16:06:35 <mib_vvzkm4> gah, and it's GP
16:06:35 <mib_vvzkm4> L
16:07:06 <mib_vvzkm4> i hate the gpl.
16:07:11 <ais523|direct> btw, the licence for gcc-bf at the moment is "undecided, but it's going to be something that can legally be used in a GPL3 program"
16:07:28 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: BSD2/BSD3/MIT/Poetic
16:07:32 <mib_vvzkm4> failing that, LGPL
16:07:34 <mib_vvzkm4> :-P
16:07:53 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: oh, or the DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO PUBLIC LICENSE, VERSION 2
16:08:05 <mib_vvzkm4> (it demands its full formal name...)
16:08:08 <ais523|direct> I think the bits designed to go into gcc itself will be GPL3+ as gcc itself is, the libraries will probably be BSD3, not sure about the linker yet
16:08:12 <mib_vvzkm4> (http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/)
16:08:21 <ais523|direct> and I know the WTFPL, but not the Poetic
16:08:29 <mib_vvzkm4> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_License
16:08:31 <mib_vvzkm4> Poem license.
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16:19:20 <ais523|direct> mib_vvzkm4: that might be interestingly risky, although probably not
16:19:29 <ais523|direct> this is a typical lawyer silliness
16:19:55 <ais523|direct> basically, the law says that warranty disclaimers have to be prominent, or obvious, or something like that (I can't remember the exact word) or they don't count
16:20:04 <ais523|direct> and there's court precedent that writing them in allcaps is one way to do that
16:20:12 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: ISC isn't allcaps.
16:20:21 <ais523|direct> as a result, professional licence-writing lawyers have always written warranty disclaimers in allcaps
16:20:28 <mib_vvzkm4> well, true
16:20:29 <ais523|direct> because there's precedent that way works, why gamble on any other method?
16:20:46 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: Well, they're the inferior soulless beings of the world. :-P
16:21:09 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: Isn't copyright law _all_ about intent, anyway?
16:21:20 <ais523|direct> not completely, unfortunately
16:21:35 <ais523|direct> well, otherwise it would be impossible to tell whether you were allowed to copy something or not
16:21:48 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: ok, reasonably obvious intent
16:21:53 <mib_vvzkm4> just like with copyright infringment
16:22:02 <ais523|direct> doing it the other way round can be interesting, though
16:22:14 <ais523|direct> the intent of the copyright holder, as opposed to the intent of the copier
16:22:16 <ais523|direct> how much does that matter?
16:22:34 <mib_vvzkm4> beats me
16:22:43 <ais523|direct> I don't know off by heart either
16:22:43 <mib_vvzkm4> but I'd say that the Poetic License probably won't be judged to not work because it isn't allcaps.
16:23:05 <ais523|direct> the amusing thing is even the professional lawyers seem to mess up
16:23:24 <ais523|direct> the famous APA contract between SCO and Novell, for instance, was unclear enough for people to argue all sorts of weird things about it
16:23:37 <ais523|direct> maybe they should get nomic players to look the contracts over
16:24:02 <mib_vvzkm4> if r101/town fountain work poetic license does too :-P
16:24:31 <mib_vvzkm4> also, have SCO appealed the most recent judgment against them yet?
16:24:33 <ais523|direct> mib_vvzkm4: I don't think the town fountain is an RL-binding warranty disclaimer
16:24:47 <ais523|direct> mib_vvzkm4: not yet as far as I know
16:24:54 <ais523|direct> they sent a letter to the courts saying they planned to, or something
16:25:09 <ais523|direct> and got an answer back saying vaguely "make sure you follow procedure to the letter and we're not going to bother to tell you what it is"
16:25:12 <mib_vvzkm4> god, I wish they'd just die already.
16:25:49 <ais523|direct> and other things that showed the court in question was aware of SCO, like talking about how delaying tactics were unwise
16:26:23 <mib_vvzkm4> i don't really like novell either tho
16:26:42 <ais523|direct> I'd like to see SCO vs. IBM get judged
16:26:44 <ais523|direct> sometime
16:27:05 <ais523|direct> IBM winning that will be infinitely more amusing than Novell mostly winning
16:27:06 <mib_vvzkm4> i think I like Red Hat, as far as linux companies go. at least, I haven't heard of them doing bad stuff
16:27:18 <ais523|direct> especially as SCO's argument in that one was a lot less plausible than their argument against Novell
16:27:21 <mib_vvzkm4> also, SCO winning against IBM would probably be even funnier, albeit disasterous
16:27:40 <ais523|direct> I'm not sure I could see the amusement in that, tbh
16:27:44 <ais523|direct> it would just make no sense
16:28:08 <ais523|direct> "Hey, we invented Moore's Law and used it to prove that Itanium being unpopular was a conspiracy! Oh, and that means we own Linux, for some reason!"
16:28:19 <mib_vvzkm4> over-the-top ridiculousness applied to formal beorcracy (I can never spell that word) is always funny
16:28:25 <ais523|direct> bureaucracy
16:28:37 <mib_vvzkm4> I could remember buraeu, cracy but thatwould be too logical
16:28:48 <ais523|direct> what, even that prisoner who went and tried to intervene in SCO vs. Novell
16:28:56 <mib_vvzkm4> haha what
16:28:57 <ais523|direct> arguing that SCO's lawyers weren't doing a very good job and he could do better?
16:29:07 <mib_vvzkm4> hahahahahah
16:29:20 <ais523|direct> mib_vvzkm4: it seems he's some sort of "artist" who uses comedic lawsuits as a medium
16:29:34 <mib_vvzkm4> that's great
16:29:40 <ais523|direct> he's sued an incredibly large number of people, some of whom don't exist
16:29:51 <mib_vvzkm4> can you sue yourself?
16:29:55 <ais523|direct> I don't know
16:29:59 <mib_vvzkm4> i hope so
16:30:00 <ais523|direct> it would be expensive, so probably not worth it
16:30:04 <mib_vvzkm4> i want to get money off myself.
16:30:37 <ais523|direct> yes, but most of it would go to the lawyers
16:45:07 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: you can't use a GPL library in a non-GPL program right?
16:45:09 <mib_vvzkm4> not even gpl-compat
16:45:24 <ais523|direct> if you do, the resulting combination is GPL
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16:45:40 <ais523|direct> and so you have to distribute the source to your non-GPL program under the GPL
16:45:57 <ais523|direct> therefore, pretty much locking it into GPL-only distribution terms for any derivatives
16:46:10 <ais523|direct> you could licence it multilicence BSD/GPL, but nobody will be able to use the BSD half
16:46:43 <mib_vvzkm4> i hope the gpl dies.
16:46:50 <ais523|direct> you really don't like it that much?
16:47:26 <mib_vvzkm4> a wealth of libraries that I can't use because I disagree with how it goes about things, or just because it's not suitable for the certain thing I'm working on?
16:47:35 <mib_vvzkm4> for no reason other than a stupid political statement by rms?
16:47:43 <mib_vvzkm4> i'd be very happy if it disappeared.
16:47:50 <ais523|direct> people licencing libraries under the GPL are more or less deliberately saying "I only want this to be used in GPL programs"
16:48:03 <mib_vvzkm4> yes, but it's ridiculous
16:48:16 <ais523|direct> which, btw, is why gcc-bf's runtime libraries won't be licenced under just GPL
16:48:16 <mib_vvzkm4> a wealth of libraries that I can't use because I disagree with how it goes about things, or just because it's not suitable for the certain thing I'm working on.
16:48:57 <ais523|direct> you can't use them because you don't want to make your own code GPL, actually
16:49:01 <ais523|direct> which also makes sense
16:50:39 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: I don't want to use the GPL because "I disagree with how it goes about things, or just because it's not suitable for the certain thing I'm working on."
16:51:01 <ais523|direct> yes
16:51:33 <ais523|direct> the argument really is that you have someone who doesn't want their libraries to be used in a closed-source way under any circumstances, therefore obviously you can't use them in your program that you do want to be usable like that
16:53:33 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: the point is, its viral nature is stopping me using perfectly good open source libraries -- heck, one of them is just a direct transliteration of the sha1 spec to haskell -- that would be absolutely fine non-GPL'd and I'm not even using it commercially, just in a non-GPL program
16:53:37 <mib_vvzkm4> in summary, the GPL sucks.
16:53:47 <ais523|direct> no, people have been applying it to the wrong things
16:54:33 <ais523|direct> either that, or they're people who don't like their work being used in a closed-source program ever
16:54:46 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: there is no correct use
16:54:46 <ais523|direct> although you might not share that attitude, I'm surprised that you seem not to understand it
16:54:53 <ais523|direct> (I don't really share that attitude either...)
16:55:09 <ais523|direct> what I mean is, there will always be people who want copyleftness for some reason or otehr
16:55:11 <mib_vvzkm4> the only thing the GPL's viral nature is useful for is to stop it getting into commercial software
16:55:17 <mib_vvzkm4> and that's just anti-commercial paranoia
16:55:19 <ais523|direct> mostly to stop people messing with the licence terms
16:55:38 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: for free software, what terms can there be
16:55:51 <mib_vvzkm4> apart from "you can do anything but you have to include this notice"
16:55:54 <ais523|direct> mib_vvzkm4: let's say, someone releases a derivative of your software under an ecolicence
16:56:03 <ais523|direct> and it becomes popular, but you can't use it legally
16:56:04 <mib_vvzkm4> the only t hing that actually needs viralness
16:56:07 <mib_vvzkm4> is stopping commercial software using it
16:56:15 <mib_vvzkm4> i believe this is misguided.
16:56:17 <ais523|direct> mib_vvzkm4: or stopping people adding extra terms to the licences
16:56:25 <ais523|direct> put it this way, suppose you release a BSD library
16:56:27 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: so what
16:56:33 <ais523|direct> someone modifies it to make it more useful, and releases the result under GPL
16:56:39 <ais523|direct> would you be happy with that?
16:56:53 <mib_vvzkm4> I'd think they're an ass, but I wouldn't try and stop them.
16:57:03 <ais523|direct> well, yes, you couldn't easily
16:57:10 <ais523|direct> what if the GPL library became a lot more popular than your original?
16:57:13 <mib_vvzkm4> I guess I don't see the need to formalize human reasonableness and decency.
16:57:20 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: sucks to be me, I guess.
16:57:27 <ais523|direct> mib_vvzkm4: ok, I think I see your logic
16:57:38 <ais523|direct> the truth is, most people aren't as trusting of everyone in the world as you are
16:57:49 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: It's not about trusting.
16:57:51 <mib_vvzkm4> They can't do anything to -you-.
16:58:08 <mib_vvzkm4> Besides, if you don't "trust" people, don't release it as free software
16:58:12 <ais523|direct> they can cause you to have wasted your time...
16:58:13 <mib_vvzkm4> what if they modify it
16:58:15 <mib_vvzkm4> and make it WORSE
16:58:21 <mib_vvzkm4> and it gets more popular than the original?!!!
16:58:26 <ais523|direct> then the new version is unlikely to catch on, if it's sufficiently worse
16:58:39 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: no, in the kind of broken way that seems better to most people
16:58:44 <mib_vvzkm4> btu for the people who actually know how it works, is crappy
16:58:52 <mib_vvzkm4> and leads to problems further along the lines
16:58:53 <ais523|direct> then arguably it is better
16:58:59 <ais523|direct> I mean, phpBB is coded awfully
16:59:01 <ais523|direct> but it's pretty popular
16:59:03 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: no, because it leads to serious problems in the end
16:59:04 <mib_vvzkm4> anyway
16:59:09 <mib_vvzkm4> we should add a clause to the GPL4
16:59:12 <ais523|direct> and yes, it is leading to serious problems in the end...
16:59:16 <mib_vvzkm4> "Derivatives of the software must improve on it."
16:59:27 <mib_vvzkm4> this will stop bad people from making it worse.
16:59:36 <ais523|direct> mib_vvzkm4: would you consider releasing software under BSD plus that clause?
16:59:39 <ais523|direct> somehow, i don't think so
16:59:46 <mib_vvzkm4> also
16:59:55 <mib_vvzkm4> users of the software must brush their teeth, and floss
17:00:07 <mib_vvzkm4> we're ensuring our users stay free and healthy!
17:00:13 <ais523|direct> actually, I think the main reason the GPL is designed as it is, is to avoid the scenario of someone getting a copy of the software but not be able to tinker with it
17:00:30 <ais523|direct> RMS was putting himself in the end-user's position, and deciding he was really annoyed with inability to tinker
17:00:37 <mib_vvzkm4> s/software/a derivative of software/, you mean
17:00:44 <ais523|direct> well, even the original
17:00:54 <Slereah> d(software)/dx? :o
17:01:00 <ais523|direct> it's illegal for me to send you unmodified GPL binaries, but not tell you where the source is
17:01:10 <mib_vvzkm4> that's nothing to do with viral nature
17:01:12 <mib_vvzkm4> that's OK, imo
17:01:18 <mib_vvzkm4> but nto for derivatives, really
17:01:19 <mib_vvzkm4> meh
17:01:28 <mib_vvzkm4> anyway in which case, ais523|direct -- didn't you say "its the devs choice to not allow it to be used commercially"
17:01:40 <ais523|direct> I didn't say that exactly
17:01:43 <mib_vvzkm4> in this case, it's the developer of a derivative's choice to not allow it to be modified
17:02:00 <ais523|direct> mib_vvzkm4: the problem with derivatives is they have to respect the original author's wishes too
17:02:08 <mib_vvzkm4> see, if someone founded a business by taking my library, and adding their own top-secret magic juice that makes their product amazing and they sell loads and blah blah blah
17:02:14 <mib_vvzkm4> to me, not releasing the source is absolutely fine, good on them
17:02:16 <ais523|direct> I'm perfectly happy with people releasing non-derivative software under a noderivs licence
17:02:30 <ais523|direct> or derivative software where the original author's happy with that
17:02:32 <mib_vvzkm4> it's their business, as long as they retain my name in there, that's OK
17:02:43 <ais523|direct> not everyone shares your attitude, especially if they have a job
17:03:01 <ais523|direct> effectively, if you write a BSD-licenced library, you're doing other people's work for them
17:03:06 <ais523|direct> some people are happy with that, some people aren't
17:03:13 <mib_vvzkm4> yeah. that's called free software/open source.
17:03:14 <mib_vvzkm4> crazy thing that.
17:03:22 <ais523|direct> yes
17:03:57 <ais523|direct> except... in the GPL world, everyone ends up having to give back by the nature of the licence, that makes it more acceptable to some people to GPL in the first place
17:04:08 <ais523|direct> as in, if you create BSD works, other people could use them and not give anything back
17:04:24 <ais523|direct> if you create GPL works, other people who modify them have to either keep the modifications to themselves, or give them to everyone
17:04:31 <mib_vvzkm4> that's fine. if it's their innovation, fine. it's their right to keep it to themselves.
17:04:36 <ais523|direct> (rather than the usual middle ground of giving them only to paying customers, for instance)
17:04:41 <mib_vvzkm4> of course, it'd be nicer if they released it, but free software is about freedom, anyway
17:05:01 <ais523|direct> graue was a big believer in public domain (probably still is), and I see his point too, by the way
17:05:12 <mib_vvzkm4> I think he still is
17:05:30 <ais523|direct> and this argument, I think, is all about how much people should have the freedom to limit other people's freedom
17:05:31 <mib_vvzkm4> I use a real license due to the shaky legal status of PD
17:05:45 <mib_vvzkm4> I'm considering modifying an existing one to remove the required-notice stuff
17:05:48 <ais523|direct> Creative Commons have written a ridiculously detailed PDing licence
17:05:49 <mib_vvzkm4> to be effectively pd
17:05:54 <ais523|direct> much more PDing than their old one
17:05:54 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: it's pd-emulation
17:05:57 <ais523|direct> yep
17:05:58 <mib_vvzkm4> it explicitly grants all rights
17:06:04 <ais523|direct> yes, and one at a time!
17:06:10 <mib_vvzkm4> :)
17:06:18 <mib_vvzkm4> "You can brush your teeth with this work."
17:06:22 <mib_vvzkm4> "You can nkep with this work."
17:06:30 <mib_vvzkm4> "You can zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzUIY*Q&Y$* on a sunday morning with this work."
17:06:43 <ais523|direct> I think there are only a finite number of things that are illegal to do with copyrighted works anyway, and they're each explicitly made legal
17:06:48 <ais523|direct> after all, the law is only finitely long...
17:07:33 <oerjan> except - it's not necessarily the same in all countries, is it?
17:07:41 <ais523|direct> no, that's why the licence is so long I think
17:07:48 <ais523|direct> having to cover all the possibilities
17:07:56 <mib_vvzkm4> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/nano-md5/0.1.2/doc/html/Data-Digest-OpenSSL-MD5.html
17:07:56 <mib_vvzkm4> yay
17:08:05 <mib_vvzkm4> bsd3
17:08:44 <ais523|direct> mib_vvzkm4: you are going to put their copyright notice in the materials accompanying the distribution, right?
17:09:06 <mib_vvzkm4> hmm, isn't that implicit for shared libraries as long as you don't include their source?
17:09:20 <mib_vvzkm4> i'm not modifying or redistributing it, after all
17:09:23 <ais523|direct> I think so, assuming the person got the shared library legitimately
17:09:33 <mib_vvzkm4> then the answer is no :-P
17:09:37 <ais523|direct> how are you using it and not redistributing it? telling people to get it from hackage themselves?
17:09:41 <mib_vvzkm4> yep
17:09:44 <ais523|direct> should work
17:10:01 <mib_vvzkm4> well, also putting it in the cabal file so that when I put it on hackage it auto-downloads those as dependencies.
17:17:18 <mib_vvzkm4> ew. someone referring to an operating system as just "GNU".
17:17:43 <ais523|direct> actually, I consider GNU to be an operating system whose shell is Emacs and for which they still haven't written the kernel
17:17:52 <mib_vvzkm4> hurd!!!!!!!!111111111
17:18:01 <mib_vvzkm4> i think the correct name is GNU/Suicide, though.
17:18:14 <ais523|direct> if you read Stallman's original famous message, he mentioned that he wanted both C and Lisp as system programming languages
17:18:17 <mib_vvzkm4> yep.
17:18:28 <mib_vvzkm4> it shows in the awful gnu c code.
17:18:31 <ais523|direct> I actually think GNU Emacs was intentionally, not just accidentally, designed to be an OS
17:18:49 <mib_vvzkm4> he wanted a program that could do everything he wanted.
17:18:49 <mib_vvzkm4> so, yes.
17:18:50 <ais523|direct> probably Stallman's disappointed that people keep mistaking it for an editor
17:20:06 <mib_vvzkm4> I wonder if the zippiness I'm experiencing thanks to this here 2.5 GB of RAM is just placebo.
17:20:09 <mib_vvzkm4> (Answer: probably.)
17:20:20 <ais523|direct> placebo zippiness is great, though
17:20:24 <mib_vvzkm4> yep :P
17:20:36 <ais523|direct> it makes the computer seem just as responsive as real zippiness, but without the hardware costs
17:20:55 <mib_vvzkm4> well, 2gb of ram only costs like £15 nowadays
17:21:19 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: unfortunately, this is placebo zippiness, plus the hardware costs
17:21:20 <mib_vvzkm4> :P
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17:22:13 <mib_vvzkm4> mibbit smilies are ugly
17:22:35 <ais523|direct> urd
17:22:39 <mib_vvzkm4> urd
17:22:45 <ais523|direct> &yes
17:22:51 <ais523|direct> s/\&/*/
17:22:53 <mib_vvzkm4> i thought urd was like oko
17:23:02 <ais523|direct> no, it's just a common typo of mine
17:23:19 <ais523|direct> caused by alt-tabbing to an IRC window and trying to type yes before I've got my hands back to the usual position
17:23:58 <mib_vvzkm4> heh
17:25:11 <ais523|direct> it could become a new meme I suppose, but oko has more power
17:25:14 <ais523|direct> and an obvious response
17:26:50 <ais523|direct> (incidentally, the same doesn't happen with "no", because that's typed with the right hand)
17:30:09 <mib_vvzkm4> proto: vim merges with emacs
17:30:25 <ais523|direct> well, I suppose it might happen
17:30:35 <ais523|direct> but you'd probably just end up with some sort of reverse viper
17:30:39 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol").
17:30:43 * ais523|direct tries to imagine vim with emacs keybindings
17:31:05 <mib_vvzkm4> I wonder if there's ever been an #esoteric meetup.
17:31:13 <ais523|direct> that would be scary
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17:31:27 <mib_vvzkm4> scary awesome
17:31:57 <mib_vvzkm4> :)
17:32:22 <ais523|direct> impractical due to the huge variety of countries and continents that esotericers are in
17:32:31 <mib_vvzkm4> err, ofc I meant country-local
17:32:47 <ais523|direct> but I don't think there are more than 3 or 4 people from any one country here
17:33:07 <mib_vvzkm4> how many englishmen here... me, you, SimonRC... anyone else?
17:33:51 <ais523|direct> English or British?
17:35:51 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: either I guess.
17:37:42 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: wat
17:37:53 <ais523|direct> mib_vvzkm4: I CTCP TIMEd the whole of #esoteric
17:37:59 <mib_vvzkm4> heh
17:38:02 <ais523|direct> to narrow down nationalities based on timezones
17:38:28 <ais523|direct> only two people responded in UTC+0, neither of them were either of us
17:38:44 <ais523|direct> there's lots of UTC+1 and UTC+2 though
17:38:44 <mib_vvzkm4> huh
17:38:51 <oerjan> boo!
17:38:58 <ais523|direct> mib_vvzkm4: well, Mibbit doesn't resopnd to ctcp time, I think
17:39:01 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol").
17:39:02 <ais523|direct> and hi oerjan
17:39:19 <ais523|direct> and my global ctcp doesn't hit myself
17:39:34 <mib_vvzkm4> an #esoteric meetup would probably culminate in two things
17:39:40 <mib_vvzkm4> the most horrifying programming language ever, and
17:39:43 <mib_vvzkm4> the most horrifying program ever
17:39:45 <Slereah> 2) gay sex
17:39:49 <Slereah> Oh.
17:39:52 <mib_vvzkm4> i'm not sure that would happen.
17:40:03 * oerjan swats Slereah in a gentle, caring way -----###
17:40:10 * ais523|direct ducks
17:40:15 <mib_vvzkm4> oerjan: get a room
17:40:17 <ais523|direct> wouldn't want you to swat me by mistake...
17:40:27 <oerjan> indeed
17:41:07 -!- bsmntbombgirl has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
17:41:57 -!- bsmntbombgirl has joined.
17:47:19 <mib_vvzkm4> hm.
17:52:16 -!- bsmntbombgirl has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
17:54:05 <ais523|direct> bsmntbombdood: what is going on with your nick? I'm getting disturbed
17:54:19 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: numerous sex changes, apparently.
17:54:30 <bsmntbombdood> DON"T JUDGE ME
18:01:09 <mib_vvzkm4> .
18:01:19 <ais523|direct> `
18:03:14 <mib_vvzkm4> .
18:03:26 <ais523|direct> `
18:05:54 <oerjan> ,
18:05:59 <ais523|direct> `
18:06:07 <oerjan> ,
18:06:15 <ais523|direct> `
18:09:52 <mib_vvzkm4> o
18:09:59 <ais523|direct> oko
18:12:17 -!- Asztal has joined.
18:26:52 <mib_vvzkm4> hmm, I dislike IRC.
18:26:58 <mib_vvzkm4> Who wants to build the ultimate chat protocol with me?
18:27:03 <mib_vvzkm4> It'll have lasers. And kittens.
18:27:04 <ais523|direct> I rather like IRC
18:27:12 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: Multiple kittens.
18:27:27 <ais523|direct> I have already has one unfulfilled promise of kittens this year
18:27:30 <ais523|direct> *had
18:27:33 <mib_vvzkm4> which?
18:27:36 <ais523|direct> you really expect me to fall for another?
18:27:40 <ais523|direct> and it was in RL, not online
18:27:45 <mib_vvzkm4> hah
18:27:52 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: well, these are kittens, with, lasers
18:27:56 <mib_vvzkm4> so, the lasers make them more real.
18:30:16 <ais523|direct> why would a chat system need that, though?
18:30:42 <mib_vvzkm4> ais523|direct: popularity.
18:30:48 <mib_vvzkm4> also, this system could replace email too.
18:30:52 <ais523|direct> I think I'll stick to IRC
18:30:57 <mib_vvzkm4> kindainstantchatkittenlaser
18:34:47 <oerjan> i think kittens with lasers may have harmful effects on your mice.
18:34:55 <Asztal> what do you dislike about IRC?
18:35:01 <ais523|direct> I'm not using a mouse atm
18:35:07 <ais523|direct> as in, right now, although I have one I have nowhere to put it
18:35:38 <mib_vvzkm4> Asztal: not enough kittens
18:35:46 <oerjan> hm actually i'm using a pad myself
18:36:23 <Asztal> there are cat bots, and fish bots
18:36:31 <Asztal> we just need a kitten bot
18:36:44 <Asztal> I miss fishbot :(
18:37:12 <oerjan> there was a fishbot?
18:37:20 <Asztal> on quakenet, there was.
18:37:25 <mib_vvzkm4> [[I submit a consultation. "Any person is, durign any voting period allowed to abstain from voting for that voting period." ]]
18:37:31 <mib_vvzkm4> NO. It's in the secret rule.
18:37:43 <ais523|direct> what did fishbot do?
18:38:43 <Asztal> It m00ed
18:39:33 <Asztal> it's generally pretty useless, but is usually in hundreds (thousands?) of channels
18:43:35 <Asztal> http://web.archive.org/web/20080129154023/www.telkman.co.uk/f/commands.php
18:47:33 <oerjan> i'd have thought that would be more a cowbot's thing </captain obvious>
18:49:34 <mib_vvzkm4> "Any sentence with vinegar and aftershock in it"
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18:50:18 <oerjan> no
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18:53:24 <mib_ewzho7> hmm
18:53:27 <mib_ewzho7> what should I implement...
18:53:36 <mib_ewzho7> how about iota
18:54:22 <ais523|direct> could be interesting
18:54:32 <mib_ewzho7> ... but not this awful one: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~gmb13/Iota/
18:54:34 <ais523|direct> probably easier than Unlambda
18:55:30 <ais523|direct> wait, first-class XML?
18:56:00 <ais523|direct> that's sort of the non-eso branch of bad language design, IMO
18:57:58 <mib_ewzho7> Done.
18:58:09 <mib_ewzho7> http://pastie.org/private/ftvs4xhdakpj8qdw0eya
18:58:21 <mib_ewzho7> In Ruby, which is odd for me recently.
18:58:34 <ais523|direct> I was trying to figure out what lang that was
18:58:38 <ais523|direct> and guessed Ruby just before you told me
18:58:42 <mib_ewzho7> heh
18:58:50 <ais523|direct> the { |x| ... } was a giveaway
18:58:58 <ais523|direct> is Ruby whitespace-sensitive, by the way?
18:59:02 <mib_ewzho7> no
18:59:07 <mib_ewzho7> well, yes
18:59:09 <mib_ewzho7> you can't do
18:59:14 <ais523|direct> ah, thus the "end" keywords
18:59:14 <mib_ewzho7> defx2end
18:59:20 <ais523|direct> and I meant as in Python
18:59:24 <mib_ewzho7> but it doesn't use indentation for structure
18:59:24 <ais523|direct> I should have said indentation-sensitive
18:59:43 <mib_ewzho7> the ends can get a bit ugly if you have very-nested structures
18:59:49 <mib_ewzho7> the solution is to not have them
18:59:52 <mib_ewzho7> (split them up)
18:59:56 <ais523|direct> because they don't stack as well as ))))) or }}}
19:00:00 <mib_ewzho7> yes
19:00:05 <mib_ewzho7> ais523|direct: incidentally,
19:00:19 <mib_ewzho7> k = proc do |x| proc do |y| x end end
19:00:22 <mib_ewzho7> would have worked too
19:00:27 <mib_ewzho7> for blocks, do = { and end = }
19:00:28 * ais523|direct suddenly realises that there's hardly any, if any, [[[ or ]]] in gcc-bf
19:00:37 <ais523|direct> for that matter, there's not a whole lot of [[ or ]]
19:00:46 <mib_ewzho7> well, [[ ... ]] is just [ ... ] ...
19:00:52 <ais523|direct> I know
19:00:55 <mib_ewzho7> :P
19:01:00 <ais523|direct> but I mean [[ ... ] ... ] is something I use from time to time
19:01:11 <ais523|direct> but [ ... [ ... ]], or anything with [[[ or ]]], is really rare
19:01:16 <mib_ewzho7> yeah
19:01:23 <mib_ewzho7> hmm, I'm liking Ruby again
19:01:43 <ais523|direct> the longest patterned bits of code are the [-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-...s at the start of the switch statements
19:02:05 <ais523|direct> and of course the 300,000+ consecutive >s, but if you're sane you leave those run-length-encoded, as they come up quite a lot
19:05:07 <mib_ewzho7> theory: any #esoteric meetup will inevitably culminate in making a clone of the LHC that actually works and destroys the world
19:05:11 <mib_ewzho7> written in brainfuck
19:05:14 <mib_ewzho7> and subleq
19:05:28 <ais523|direct> the LHC isn't designed to destroy the world!
19:05:28 <mib_ewzho7> and made entirely out of tape.
19:05:32 <ais523|direct> so world destruction != actually working
19:05:41 <mib_ewzho7> ais523|direct: it is.
19:05:42 <mib_ewzho7> secretly.
19:06:18 <oerjan> mib_ewzho7: we don't have the resources to make a collider
19:06:36 <oerjan> we _might_ be able to make an evil AI, though
19:06:52 <oerjan> hm wait
19:07:01 <mib_ewzho7> oerjan: no we do
19:07:04 <mib_ewzho7> it's all in the specific brand of tape
19:07:04 <oerjan> we make an evil AI which then builds the collider
19:07:09 <mib_ewzho7> yeah
19:07:11 <mib_ewzho7> that's what i was about to say
19:08:04 <ais523|direct> hey, that's brilliant!
19:08:12 <ais523|direct> for all this time, I was lamenting the lack of any truly evil genii
19:08:26 <ais523|direct> because nobody is that maniacally insanely evil in practice
19:08:35 <ais523|direct> but of course, an AI could be programmed to be evil, avoiding the problem
19:08:48 <ais523|direct> y6666665yty7u77uyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy767yyyyy6
19:08:57 <ais523|direct> sorry, hair on my keyboard, I was trying to get rid of it
19:09:00 <mib_ewzho7> er*(&!(*&18y227222222222222LOST CARRIER
19:12:24 <oerjan> ais523|direct: it's all right we won't disrespect you just because you have spasms
19:12:36 <oerjan> not much, anyhow
19:12:58 <ais523|direct> oh, it's my habit recently of pressing enter to clear a line, especially on IRC, to make an interesting topic of conversation
19:14:17 <oerjan> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
19:14:19 <oerjan> discuss!
19:14:30 <mib_ewzho7> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
19:14:53 <oerjan> a brute force argument if i ever saw one
19:15:06 <ais523|direct> A aaaa aa aaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaa a aaaaaaa aaaaaa aaaa aaaaaa aaa aaaa aaaa a'a aaaaaaa aaaaa.
19:15:32 <oerjan> ah.
19:16:06 <bsmntbombdood> inserting in a priority queue is O(log n) right?
19:16:25 <bsmntbombdood> how are LRU caches implemented?
19:17:09 <oerjan> for the right implementation i think so
19:19:10 <mib_ewzho7> hmm
19:19:20 <mib_ewzho7> someone name a few sequences that 42 is in
19:19:23 <mib_ewzho7> well-known I maen
19:19:25 <mib_ewzho7> *mean
19:19:30 <bsmntbombdood> the natural numbers
19:19:38 <mib_ewzho7> -.-
19:19:50 <oerjan> the even numbers
19:19:57 <Asztal> I think whitespace between a function and the opening parenthesis for the arguments used to raise a warning that things might change
19:20:01 <Asztal> oops
19:20:12 <Asztal> I'm in the past
19:20:13 <bsmntbombdood> the non-prime numbers
19:20:22 <oerjan> the imperfect numbers
19:21:11 <Asztal> Catalan numbers
19:21:15 <oerjan> ooh
19:21:21 <Asztal> I cheated
19:21:47 <mib_ewzho7> lol
19:21:59 <Asztal> http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/?q=42&go=Search :)
19:22:01 <ais523|direct> the set of numbers which are the product of two consecutive integers in two ways
19:27:02 <oerjan> um it's always two ways or none, i think
19:34:19 <bsmntbombdood> hmm the [[priority queue]] says that inserting AND removing are O(log n)
19:34:26 <Asztal> maybe in your silly commutative algebrae
19:34:26 <bsmntbombdood> shouldn't one be constant and the other be log
19:35:22 <bsmntbombdood> making overall time for sorting O(n log n)
19:36:18 <ais523|direct> it's n log n both ways round
19:36:26 <ais523|direct> because O(2n log n) = O(n log n)
19:36:30 <oerjan> "If a self-balancing binary search tree is used, all three operations take O(log n) time"
19:36:59 <oerjan> "Fibonacci heaps can insert elements, peek at the maximum priority element, and increase an element's priority in amortized constant time (deletions are still O(log n))."
19:37:10 <oerjan> it really depends on which implementation you use
19:37:23 <bsmntbombdood> oh i must have missed that
19:38:25 <oerjan> oh i cut off the first too soon
19:38:34 <bsmntbombdood> interesting to peak but not delete in constant time
19:38:38 <oerjan> "The binary heap uses O(log n) time for both operations, but allows peeking at the element of highest priority without removing it in constant time."
19:38:58 <oerjan> um wait
19:39:15 * oerjan confuses himself, all three pastes were right
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20:17:43 <mib_ewzho7> a
20:17:59 <ais523|direct> don't you dare try to start another game of that
20:18:02 <oerjan> e
20:18:03 <mib_ewzho7> a
20:18:07 <mib_ewzho7> f
20:18:09 <ais523|direct> I'm in no mood for being thrashed yet again, given that it's Christmas
20:18:15 <mib_ewzho7> ]+
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20:47:33 <AnMaster> hm
20:47:35 <AnMaster> this is strange
20:47:53 <AnMaster> a weird wave-like pattern in the build output when building openssl on freebsd
20:47:56 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMTF3NA
20:48:00 <AnMaster> a conspiracy maybe ;P
20:48:10 <AnMaster> (actually it looks quite cool)
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22:16:12 <mib_ewzho7> back
22:16:44 <mib_ewzho7> AnMaster: that's nice
22:16:55 <AnMaster> heh
22:17:11 <mib_ewzho7> this system is wow so much faster with the extra 1.5 GB of ram
22:28:21 * Sgeo has a grand total of 512MB ram
22:28:50 <mib_ewzho7> Sgeo: Hi 2002
22:28:59 <Sgeo> lol
22:29:08 <Sgeo> Did I ever mention what graphics card I have?
22:29:09 <mib_ewzho7> You look crappy there!
22:29:41 <Sgeo> nVidia RIVA TNT2
22:30:28 <mib_ewzho7> hahahahahah
22:31:42 <Sgeo> They laughed when I told them my computer's specs, but who's laughing now?!?!?!?
22:32:03 <fizzie> They, still.
22:32:03 <mib_ewzho7> Me.
22:32:36 <Sgeo> Yeah, well, I still want to sound mad
22:32:45 <mib_ewzho7> hey fizzie, how do you feel about fungot getting competition in the babbler, random, schizophrenic, crazy bot with tons of stupid features market
22:32:46 <fungot> mib_ewzho7: the valid judgements for this, if
22:47:04 <fizzie> As long as I have monopoly in the lucrative "Befunge IRC-bots" market; licenses for those are what's keeping me fed!
22:47:21 <ais523|direct> fizzie: how many have you sold?
22:47:49 <fizzie> ais523|direct: That's confidential information, but I can say that the number has a zero imaginary part.
22:48:05 <ais523|direct> good to know they're all real licences
22:48:57 <mib_ewzho7> (that was advertising for botte btw)
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2008-12-26
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03:19:20 <Warrigal> I want to improvise a natural language again.
03:22:04 <Warrigal> Take words from any language but English, and stick them together until a language forms.
03:22:44 <Warrigal> Alternatively, use numbers instead of words.
03:23:54 <Warrigal> That sounds fun, actually.
03:24:41 <Warrigal> It sounds so fun that I'm going to go do something else, unless someone else is actually interested.
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10:53:07 <Mony> hi guys :)
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10:54:22 <Mony> moooooo
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15:35:41 <flexo> hello
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15:35:48 <Mony> hi
15:35:53 <mib_prms12> hi.
15:36:55 <flexo> i while ago i wrote a toadskin interpreter (because the reference implementation is so buggy .. it's not usable to any extend) and wrote hanoi in my "improved" TS (where improved means i got rid of the stupid "ring buffer" and fixed the interpreter bugs)
15:37:03 <flexo> so far so good
15:37:15 <flexo> i'm very positive that this toadskin is not yet TC in any way
15:37:30 <mib_prms12> cool.
15:37:31 <flexo> as you have only one stack (there is also the callstack, but it's not possible to store anything but return "addresses" so...)
15:37:46 <flexo> you can do "useful" things with it ofcourse
15:37:49 <flexo> now, i'm wondering
15:38:02 <flexo> if you'd have it save the accumulator on the callstack
15:38:10 <flexo> would that maybe make it TC?
15:38:15 <mib_prms12> dunno :)
15:38:25 <flexo> well, give it a thought then :P
15:39:11 <flexo> it would most definitly not be possible to implement arbitrary algorithms in this "new TS"
15:39:21 <mib_prms12> then it is not tc
15:39:30 <flexo> as emulation of a tape is limited to one side by not being able to define as many words as one wishes
15:39:39 <flexo> (there are only so many characters)
15:39:40 <flexo> but!
15:39:47 <flexo> it may be enough to implement a brainfuck interpreter
15:40:18 <flexo> and i believe this counts as TC - considering that that (2,3) TM is universal.
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15:40:56 <flexo> feel free to share your thoughts
15:41:06 <flexo> and, showing off, ofcourse:
15:41:41 <flexo> :w<%>;:a>[-w+w];:s>[-w-w];:d<%w[-w+%w+%w];:yd>%<;:c[-];:mw[-w%<%ya>%w]%>c;:r>%w%<%;:o>[w.>-];:1+<;:211a;:z2a;:31z;:42z;:53z;:64z;:86z;:Z48m;:Y85;:AYa5ma1o;:Bc%AZd64a3mad1sZ4oA25m1o;:C%y%ya3%s;:DC%>rrEr;:Ed>[>-<rD%y%yC%>Brrr%D%C%>%rr>+<c];:FZdYa2ma;:G,<Ya5ms,c%;:HZYm1a88m3ad2s33m5m%Ym6o;Fd2m1sdd44ms%d52ms5zz8a4m5zo,<86ms,cFd4s2m1adzd3a8z5zm6oHGFd2m5s43m5zm4oHGE
15:41:46 <flexo> :)
15:42:18 <flexo> you obviously need a working interpreter, provided here: http://flexotec.eu/~flexo/toadskin.rb
15:42:24 * flexo sits back
15:44:58 <mib_prms12> flexo: if you can do bf
15:45:01 <mib_prms12> you can do arbitrary algos
15:45:07 <flexo> well - no
15:45:12 <mib_prms12> yes.
15:45:16 <flexo> let's assume that the maximum program length is limited for example
15:45:32 <mib_prms12> then that's not really tc.
15:46:00 <flexo> fine
15:46:09 <flexo> well
15:46:12 <flexo> that's the question
15:46:26 <flexo> i think it is
15:46:43 <flexo> as an UTM (which is considered to be the measure for TC, right?) has no program at all
15:46:46 <flexo> just input
15:47:02 <mib_prms12> mm
15:47:02 <flexo> being the initial tape content
15:47:42 <flexo> if my ITS (improved toadskin.. yes! just made that up!) has just enough definable words to implement a BF interpreter that should do the trick
15:48:16 <flexo> or just enough words to implement that (2,3) TM, but that would just be sick
15:48:45 <flexo> should be much easier though
15:49:15 <flexo> but my plan would be to write a BF-to-ITS compiler
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15:49:37 <flexo> (which i think is do-able and the easiest approach given the similiarities between ITS and BF)
15:49:55 <flexo> and use it to compile daniel's BF-BF interpreter
15:51:59 <flexo> (daniel b cristofani doesn't happen to hang out around here? :)
15:52:13 <mib_prms12> yep
15:52:14 <mib_prms12> as dbc
15:52:20 <mib_prms12> not here atm though
15:52:32 <flexo> heh. i'll stay then, say hello
15:52:49 <flexo> had some discussions with him on that bf ml a couple of years ago
15:52:59 <mib_prms12> heh, that one
15:53:02 <mib_prms12> I'm subscribed to it.
15:53:05 <mib_prms12> So much german spam.
15:53:11 <flexo> yea..
15:53:27 <flexo> he helped me perfect the brainfuck division algorithm :)
15:53:52 <flexo> that is [->>+<-[>>>]>[[<+>-]>+>>]<<<<<]
15:54:00 <flexo> (my initial version was 5 bytes longer or something like that)
15:54:00 <mib_prms12> :)
15:54:29 <flexo> he even came up with an even shorter one, but with messed up cell layout
15:56:46 -!- mib_prms12 has set topic: we are not responsible for any losses of limb..
15:56:57 <flexo> ah.. so much never-released esolang stuff in my projects folder
15:57:04 <flexo> i really need a personal homepage or something like that
15:57:08 <mib_prms12> hehe :)
15:57:16 <flexo> http://flexotec.eu/~flexo/hanoi2.b.txt
15:57:20 <flexo> never released that either
15:57:26 <flexo> (that email address is no longer valid :)
15:57:37 <mib_prms12> awesome
15:57:51 <flexo> and my current yapi.b is some bytes shorter than the one in the archive i think
15:58:15 <flexo> i even found a documented version
15:58:22 <flexo> but that's a tradesecret
15:58:36 <mib_prms12> lol
15:59:32 <flexo> hmmm
15:59:55 <flexo> and poor pinky was never released too
16:00:24 <flexo> (a heavy-optimizing brainfuck x86 compiler... afaik the fastest implementation around, by some orders of magnitude..)
16:00:46 <mib_prms12> really?
16:00:54 <mib_prms12> flexo: ais523 has been working on gcc-bf
16:00:56 <flexo> even faster than that optimizing to-c compiler + gcc -O3
16:00:58 <mib_prms12> It's a gcc backend that outputs brainfuck.
16:01:17 <flexo> well. i think my compiler should still be faster
16:01:20 <mib_prms12> flexo: Maybe yours would be useful for handling the 5-thousand->s-in-a-rows it produces ;-)
16:01:25 <flexo> because compiling brainfuck is more decompilation than compilation
16:01:26 <mib_prms12> no no no I mean
16:01:27 <mib_prms12> gcc-bf
16:01:29 <mib_prms12> compiles C programs
16:01:30 <mib_prms12> to brainfuck
16:01:32 <flexo> oh, i see
16:01:47 <flexo> interesting
16:01:50 <mib_prms12> but ofc its output is huge as hell
16:01:54 <mib_prms12> and it's unfinished
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16:02:05 <flexo> i always thought about doing that (a c=>bf compiler, not a gcc backend...)
16:02:09 <flexo> well
16:02:19 <flexo> my compiler is quite good at optimizing auto-generated code
16:02:25 <mib_prms12> C2BF has been done, but badly.
16:02:32 <flexo> what's problematic are obviously unbalanced loops
16:02:38 <mib_prms12> gcc-bf, being a gcc backend, should eventually handle just about all conforming C programs
16:02:51 <mib_prms12> flexo: ais523 has some musings on that
16:02:52 <flexo> but balanced loops can easily be translated in while loops, if statements, load/store, multiplication and MAC
16:02:54 <mib_prms12> to optimize the
16:02:56 <mib_prms12> n
16:02:57 <mib_prms12> m
16:03:19 <flexo> http://flexotec.eu/~flexo/triangle.txt
16:03:26 <flexo> ^ this is what triangle.b looks like after optimization
16:03:32 <flexo> (this is my IL later compiled to x86 code)
16:03:44 <mib_prms12> looks pretty good
16:03:48 <mib_prms12> flexo: there's another optimizing implementation
16:03:51 <mib_prms12> that does some hardcore optimizations
16:03:53 <mib_prms12> writen in haskell
16:04:03 <mib_prms12> lemme find it
16:04:13 <mib_prms12> flhttp://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/impl/bf2c.hs
16:04:14 <mib_prms12> flexo:
16:04:15 <mib_prms12> http://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/impl/bf2c.hs
16:04:20 <mib_prms12> you should steal some of its optimizations ;-)
16:04:23 <mib_prms12> *could
16:04:35 <flexo> just 400 lines?
16:04:40 <mib_prms12> yep
16:04:45 <mib_prms12> it's Haskell, of course it's concise ;-)
16:04:50 <flexo> i suppose
16:05:05 <mib_prms12> most of it is optimizatin
16:05:14 <flexo> most of my compiler is optimization too...
16:05:16 <flexo> but
16:05:25 <flexo> a large part i spend in optimizing the multiplications
16:05:42 <flexo> (as in... what do i do, MUL, SHL, LEA, or some weird combination?)
16:05:49 <mib_prms12> :)
16:06:12 <flexo> can you execute that?
16:06:17 <flexo> and give me the output for triangle.b?
16:06:26 <flexo> i'd love to compare - have no haskell implementation installed ofcourse :)
16:06:34 <mib_prms12> sure
16:07:09 <mib_prms12> flexo: which triangle.b?
16:07:20 <flexo> there are more than one?
16:07:26 <mib_prms12> perhaps not :)
16:07:44 <flexo> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/triangle.bf
16:08:05 <flexo> i renamed all extensions to clarify what exact bf dialect they need.. triangle is portable, hence just "b" ;)
16:08:31 <mib_prms12> flexo: http://pastie.org/346994.txt?key=wz8d6rjprfvm30diqckiw
16:08:47 <mib_prms12> that initial comment isn't optimized out, heh
16:09:31 <flexo> i think my tree is somewhat better
16:09:44 <flexo> that one doesn't compile to "if" statements
16:09:45 <mib_prms12> flexo: looks much the same to me.
16:09:53 <flexo> (and mine removes dead code :)
16:10:11 <flexo> it also does no constant propagation for the pointer
16:10:14 <mib_prms12> flexo: yours doesn't remove the first loop.
16:10:22 <flexo> uhm
16:10:24 <flexo> it doesn't?
16:10:27 <flexo> you're right
16:10:29 <flexo> that's a bug
16:10:30 <flexo> o.O
16:10:32 <mib_prms12> XD
16:10:33 <flexo> it should.
16:10:44 <flexo> well, i've been messing around with it for the last days
16:10:47 <flexo> anyway
16:10:51 <flexo> mine does constant propagation of p
16:10:58 <flexo> (which is why at the beginning it uses a[])
16:11:04 <flexo> and it translates while to if, where possible
16:11:15 <mib_prms12> flexo: wouldn't a program such as this mess yours up?
16:11:18 <mib_prms12> ,[-](program)
16:11:23 <mib_prms12> or would it recognize that [-] sets to 0
16:11:24 <mib_prms12> no matter what?
16:11:28 <flexo> yes
16:11:36 <mib_prms12> flexo: ,[--](program)?
16:11:38 <flexo> after any loop i know that the current cell must be zero
16:11:41 <mib_prms12> flexo: ,[-+-](program)?
16:11:47 <mib_prms12> ah
16:11:49 <mib_prms12> true :P
16:12:07 <mib_prms12> flexo: what about
16:12:26 <mib_prms12> +++>,<[>---<-]
16:12:26 <mib_prms12> :P
16:12:31 <flexo> what about it?
16:12:33 <mib_prms12> i mean
16:12:36 <mib_prms12> +++>,<[>---<-]>(stuff)
16:12:45 <flexo> yea.. what about it?
16:12:57 <flexo> it still knows that p[-1] is 0
16:13:13 <flexo> if that's what you mean
16:13:18 <mib_prms12> p[-1]?
16:13:20 <mib_prms12> itym p[0]
16:13:24 <flexo> well, after the > it's p[-1]
16:13:30 <mib_prms12> o.o
16:13:49 <flexo> p is changed
16:13:55 <mib_prms12> ok
16:13:59 <flexo> (this happens only implicitly by those "for" loops)
16:14:06 <flexo> they represent unbalanced loops
16:14:26 <flexo> still
16:14:37 <flexo> quite good optimization
16:14:47 <flexo> but i'm very certain that my compiler is faster
16:15:03 <flexo> for the simple reason, that when i translate my IL to C, and let GCC compile it it's much slower
16:15:12 <flexo> than the IL=>x86 asm translation my compiler does
16:15:24 <flexo> (depending on the program as much as 50%)
16:15:53 <flexo> and i haven't even started doing register allocation :)
16:17:58 <flexo> most of the effort went into determining whether or not a loop will be entered under what conditions (and how many times it runs)
16:18:08 <flexo> as this usually leads to many subsequent optimizations
16:18:18 <flexo> (my compiler is very multi-pass-y)
16:18:37 <flexo> but even the largest bf programs take just 7 passes or so
16:18:53 <flexo> (due to the huge amount of hacks i have in the compiler, allowing it to never restart a pass...)
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16:19:37 <flexo> interesting though, as i output the assembly via printf() it becomes faster when increasing the optimization level :)
16:19:57 <flexo> (although compression of >>> and +++ is done at the parser level)
16:20:31 <flexo> mhmhm
16:20:36 <flexo> i really want to rewrite it.
16:20:48 <flexo> this time with some proper CFG representation
16:21:00 <flexo> maybe even with SSA
16:21:08 <flexo> and register allocation
16:21:58 <flexo> yes, i definitly want SSA
16:22:08 <flexo> right now it's too much hacking around with the IL tree
16:22:18 <flexo> (there is a reason why those MAC and MULs have to be inside a LOAD...)
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16:27:26 <flexo> but that "proper representation" would still need a tight coupling to the AST
16:27:47 <flexo> because most useful optimzations for BF must be done on a high level
16:27:49 <flexo> yea well
16:27:53 <flexo> just thinking loud :)
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18:30:15 <Mony> i'm going to release a new esolang
18:30:45 <Mony> i'm writing tutorial
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19:32:48 <AnMaster> grr
19:32:51 <AnMaster> wrong button
19:33:00 <ais523|direct> ah, parted #esoteric by mistake?
19:33:04 <AnMaster> yes
19:33:12 <AnMaster> was trying to part firefox
19:33:12 <ais523|direct> Mony: I look forward to seeing it
19:33:22 <AnMaster> and esoteric was the one entry before in the list
19:33:28 <AnMaster> so misclick
19:33:41 <Mony> :)
19:36:28 * AnMaster goes to edit firefox files manually
19:38:37 <Mony> AnMaster, why not install a "real" IRC client, like mIRC or XChat ?
19:38:50 <AnMaster> Mony, what?
19:38:53 <AnMaster> I use erc
19:38:59 <AnMaster> I was talking about parting #firefox
19:39:02 <ais523|direct> Mony: I think AnMaster was trying to part #firefox
19:39:04 <AnMaster> vs. parting #esoteric
19:39:05 <ais523|direct> and closed the wrong channel by mistake
19:39:07 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, indeed
19:39:11 <ais523|direct> and AnMaster just confirmed that
19:39:12 <Mony> heh...
19:39:12 <AnMaster> exactly what happened
19:39:13 <Mony> sorry
19:39:18 <AnMaster> what did you think?
19:39:27 <AnMaster> chatsilly or what?
19:39:31 <Mony> yes
19:39:43 <Mony> i thank you used chatzilla
19:39:55 <AnMaster> thank?
19:40:05 <ais523|direct> thought, presumably
19:40:05 <Mony> think*
19:40:16 <AnMaster> ah
19:40:23 <ais523|direct> sink/sank, but think/thought, English is weird
19:40:27 <AnMaster> eww
19:40:35 <AnMaster> prefs.js
19:40:36 <AnMaster> is
19:40:36 <Mony> i don't remember the word -_-
19:40:37 <AnMaster> a mess
19:40:57 <Mony> yah that's it ais523... "tought"
19:41:02 <oklopol> the perfect is changing to thunk, but thank i haven't heard yet
19:41:02 <AnMaster> wtf why are there hundreds of entries like: user_pref("print.tmp.printerfeatures.CUPS/HPPSC2175.can_change_colorspace", false);
19:41:06 <Mony> thought*
19:41:17 <AnMaster> .tmp?
19:41:24 <AnMaster> if that is temporary why is it saved
19:41:42 <Mony> my english is really crappy sometimes
19:41:43 <ais523|direct> it's actually a German grammar file, ending .TimeMannerPlace, just they abbreviated it
19:42:09 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, file?
19:42:14 <ais523|direct> Mony: don't worry, I'm used to it, non-English English is much more logical than English English...
19:42:14 <AnMaster> hm
19:42:21 <AnMaster> ah
19:42:21 <ais523|direct> AnMaster: I was trying very hard to come up with a plausible explanation
19:42:23 <ais523|direct> but failing
19:42:27 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, right
19:44:01 <oklopol> blargs
19:44:43 <ais523|direct> blargs?
19:48:05 <AnMaster> nice firefox profile contains 2 types of databases: BDB and sqlite
19:48:09 <AnMaster> why not use one system....
19:49:03 <AnMaster> oh and bookmarks is a html file
19:49:12 <AnMaster> kind of...
19:49:15 <AnMaster> "<!DOCTYPE NETSCAPE-Bookmark-file-1>"
19:49:24 <ais523|direct> SGML
19:49:25 <ais523|direct> not HTML
19:49:31 <AnMaster> ah that even
19:49:42 <ais523|direct> rare to see SGML outside HTML, though, everyone uses XML instead nowadays
19:49:44 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, err semi-html
19:49:45 <AnMaster> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
19:49:46 <AnMaster> <TITLE>Bookmarks</TITLE>
19:49:55 <AnMaster> <DL><p>
19:49:55 <AnMaster> <DT><H3 LAST_MODIFIED="1229589330" PERSONAL_TOOLBAR_FOLDER="true" ID="rdf:#$FvPhC3">Bookmarks Toolbar Folder</H3>
19:49:55 <AnMaster> <DD>Add bookmarks to this folder to see them displayed on the Bookmarks Toolbar
19:49:55 <AnMaster> <DL><p>
19:49:57 <AnMaster> and so on
19:50:01 <ais523|direct> ...
19:50:05 <ais523|direct> that isn't HTML, it says so
19:50:10 <ais523|direct> but it certainly looks like HTML
19:50:15 <AnMaster> ais523|direct, exactly!
19:50:25 <ais523|direct> it's probably to do with things like PERSONAL_TOOLBAR_FOLDER="true", that isn't HTML either
19:50:34 <AnMaster> indeed
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19:51:14 <AnMaster> ais523, but it does have certain html like parts, such as element names
19:51:43 <ais523> probably based on HTML, but then customised to taste
19:52:04 * ais523 reminds themself not to use idioms which are rare even in English
19:58:17 <Mony> here it is
19:58:18 <Mony> http://mony.servhome.org/esolang/h0rR0r.html
19:58:36 * ais523 never really liked l33t-speak
19:58:40 <Mony> i have to go, i will be back soon i think, or maybe tomorrow
19:59:08 <ais523> do you have any sort of loops?
19:59:13 <ais523> that looks to me like a slightly more useful version of Deadfish
19:59:42 <Mony> ah
19:59:48 <Mony> i impleted goto
20:00:01 <Mony> hum...
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20:00:32 <Mony> i added goto
20:01:04 <Mony> but, there is some time ago, i don't really remember how they work
20:01:35 <Mony> bye
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20:09:12 <Judofyr> has anyone played with a self-parsing language?
20:09:21 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:10:10 <Judofyr> as in defining syntax on-the-go
20:10:17 <ais523> I've played with Perk
20:10:19 <ais523> *Perl
20:10:23 <ais523> although that isn't exactly an esolang
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20:11:01 * oerjan recalls oklopol's oklotalk does something like that
20:11:04 * mib_1svng6 ponders how to word (shark swallows: fish) with a message in front of shark.
20:11:16 <mib_1svng6> (swallow: fish by: shark)?
20:11:20 <mib_1svng6> err
20:11:26 <mib_1svng6> (shark swallow: fish) is what i'm trying to do
20:11:58 <ais523> mib_1svng6: I'd prefer Smalltalk-style functions if it was function argname1: arg1 argname2: arg2
20:12:06 <ais523> rather than just function: arg1 argname2: arg2
20:12:13 <ais523> it can read weirdly the way it's done
20:14:19 <mib_1svng6> that is not an option.
20:16:02 <mib_1svng6> maybe (swallow: shark the: fish)
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20:22:07 <mib_1svng6> hm.
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20:31:40 <mib_1svng6> http://pastie.org/347087.txt?key=7nq72c67tfr5dibntn0w
20:31:45 <mib_1svng6> My work-in-progress language.
20:31:50 <mib_1svng6> It's prototype-based but also multimethod.
20:32:00 <mib_1svng6> Everything there is a regular method call -- no special syntax -- well ,except for the comment.
20:32:38 <ais523> aargh, that looks like a mix between Smalltalk and C
20:32:52 <mib_1svng6> no
20:32:56 <mib_1svng6> it's mainly based off Io
20:32:59 <mib_1svng6> http://iolanguage.com/
20:33:07 <ais523> I'm not saying what it is, just what it looks like, visually
20:33:20 <mib_1svng6> only when you don't know how it works
20:38:41 <mib_1svng6> aha, I figured out the correct way
20:38:49 <mib_1svng6> the: shark swallows: fish
20:38:51 <mib_1svng6> i think
20:39:02 <ais523> that looks so ugly
20:39:13 <ais523> to have to use "the:" as part of a function name just to make it parse as English
20:39:18 <ais523> it's what INTERCAL would do, or COBOL
20:39:22 <mib_1svng6> your opinion is well-argued, interesting and relevant. I will take notice of it.
20:51:00 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or is ehird missing a lot of opportunities to make fun of me?
20:51:38 <ais523> Sgeo: that was a dangerous statement to make
20:51:43 <ais523> either that, or he's got you on ignore
20:51:54 <ais523> anyway, I need only mention PSOX and the whole channel will come down laughing again, presumably
20:51:55 <ais523> or not?
20:54:16 <oerjan> +ul (BW)S((AH)S:^):^
20:54:26 <oerjan> hey!
20:54:30 <oerjan> ^ul (BW)S((AH)S:^):^
20:54:30 <fungot> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH ...too much output!
20:55:55 <mib_1svng6> SgeoIs it just me, or is ehird missing a lot of opportunities to make fun of me?
20:55:56 <mib_1svng6> howso?
20:56:02 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:56:23 <Sgeo> ehird, in another channel, I was talking about a game I wanted to clone
20:56:32 * oerjan swats the raw tab character -----###
20:56:42 <mib_1svng6> Sgeo: and?
20:57:10 <Sgeo> I mentioned how so far, I duplicated the appearance of one of the items, and how I have absolutely no creativity
20:57:30 <ais523> but ehird wasn't in that channel, how could he make fun of you on the basis of that until you told him?
20:57:43 <ais523> also, thutubot's down because eso-std.org is
20:57:48 <oerjan> ah
20:57:49 <ais523> maybe I should get it running on another server
20:58:04 <Sgeo> ais523, you know why eso-std.org's down, right?
20:58:14 <mib_1svng6> gnomes.
20:58:16 <mib_1svng6> infinite gnomes.
20:58:18 <mib_1svng6> they killed it.
20:58:22 <mib_1svng6> it was tragic. really.
20:58:24 -!- puzzlet has joined.
20:58:25 <mib_1svng6> it screamed.
20:58:27 <mib_1svng6> oh god did it scream.
20:58:31 <mib_1svng6> and... sniff
20:58:32 <ais523> Sgeo: yes, ehird wiped it and hasn't installed any software on there yet
20:58:32 <mib_1svng6> I will... sniff
20:58:34 <mib_1svng6> never... sniff
20:58:35 <mib_1svng6> FORGET IT
20:58:36 <mib_1svng6> sniff
20:58:51 <Sgeo> ais523, you know why ehird wiped it?
20:59:07 <oerjan> wait, was that the dread chmod -R ?
20:59:13 <ais523> no, it was a deliberate wipe
20:59:19 <ais523> ehird thought it had got too crufty
20:59:24 <ais523> and wanted to do a mass package uninstall
20:59:24 * Sgeo assumed it was the chmod -R
20:59:40 * Sgeo wipes assumptions
20:59:57 <oerjan> infinite gnomes, would that be gnomegas?
21:00:18 <oklopol> languages need more complex syntax
21:00:30 <oklopol> there's nearly no ambiguous syntax out there
21:00:38 <oklopol> except for my languages, but i don't get them finished, so.
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21:01:05 * oerjan swats some time flies -----###
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21:02:09 * oerjan flies like a banana
21:02:34 <oklopol> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
21:02:52 <oklopol> oklotalk can parse itself
21:03:00 <oerjan> *ouch* really bad aerodynamics
21:03:03 <oklopol> but i think feather is the coolest self-parser sofar
21:03:38 <oklopol> also ais523 is here, cool. unfortunately i'm busy soon
21:03:42 <ais523> yes, but it hurts even my brain, and I invented it!
21:03:46 * oerjan invents Banana Feather, it sort of fits in here
21:03:53 <ais523> AAAAARRRGH!
21:04:08 * ais523 's head spouts smoke
21:04:08 <oklopol> i would've harrassed you about continuous brainfuck
21:04:17 <ais523> continuous BF?
21:04:23 <oerjan> it even fits with the gnomegas
21:04:27 <oklopol> tried oerjan, but he prefers his bf discrete :<
21:04:28 <oklopol> ais523: yes
21:04:58 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:04:59 <Sgeo> I'd ask how continuous BF works, but I g2g
21:05:21 <oklopol> you can start these scopes which are like []'s, but incs and decs inside them work with differentials, considering everything outside the loop infinitely greater than one + or - inside it will add
21:05:44 * oerjan thinks a banana could fly with enough gnome-gas in it
21:05:45 <oklopol> basically you have an infinite descent of differentials, each infinitely smaller than the last
21:06:00 <ais523> uh-oh, I see what you mean now, and that's pretty esoteric
21:06:10 <ais523> it sort of is to BF as nopol is to digital logic
21:06:13 * oerjan watches the universe implode from pun overload
21:06:16 <oklopol> yeah, old idea, but i think i know what went wrong last time
21:06:42 <oklopol> ais523: err :P
21:06:51 <oklopol> i'm not sure what nopol and digital logic have in common
21:07:10 <ais523> well, nopol and ordinary logic then
21:07:13 <oerjan> can't quite put your finger on it?
21:07:24 <oklopol> oerjan: i don't have fingers
21:07:40 <oklopol> ais523: nopol isn't that illogical
21:07:48 * oerjan always suspected oklopol was a tentacled being
21:08:15 <ais523> oklopol: no, but it uses continuous probabilities, rather than discrete logic levels
21:08:16 <oerjan> the l's are just deceptions
21:08:17 <ais523> IIRC
21:08:19 <ais523> that's what I was trying to get at
21:08:30 <oklopol> ais523: that's noprob!
21:08:34 <ais523> ah, ok
21:08:39 <ais523> wrong lang, sorry
21:08:41 <ais523> I get confused...
21:08:48 <oklopol> nopol is a list-rewriting language based on lambda calculus and the nopular paradigm
21:09:10 <oerjan> *argh*
21:09:31 <oerjan> nopular sounds like a skin disorder
21:10:15 <oklopol> ais523: actually that may not be an accurate analogy either, anymore, i'm redesigning noprob to be more discrete
21:10:33 * oerjan finds no google hit that isn't a misspelling of popular, or nonsensical
21:10:46 <oklopol> i mean, i think so. i've had a lot of ideas, but i can't really seem to get the whole to work.
21:11:04 <oklopol> oerjan: nopular = based on nop
21:11:49 <oerjan> -ul- is otherwise a diminutive suffix
21:11:53 <oklopol> ais523: actually i will harrass you a bit, although about something else. just warning you because i've seen AnMaster do it, and he's my idol i want to be like him.
21:12:01 <oklopol> oerjan: in what language
21:12:04 <oerjan> latin
21:12:14 <AnMaster> ??
21:12:31 <oklopol> AnMaster: you were a victim of the random.
21:12:35 <oklopol> sorry about that.
21:12:50 <oerjan> oklopol does random acts of praise?
21:13:53 <oklopol> oerjan: i do random everything
21:15:11 <mib_vg1sr6> oklopol:
21:15:11 <mib_vg1sr6> oklopol:
21:15:15 <mib_vg1sr6> oklopol: oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol
21:15:51 <oklopol> :o
21:15:57 <oklopol> mememememememememememememememe
21:16:06 <mib_vg1sr6> oklopol:
21:16:12 <oklopol> :o
21:16:13 <oerjan> mememe is the new meme for me
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21:35:16 <mib_vg1sr6> hmm.
21:35:17 <mib_vg1sr6> so.
21:35:20 <mib_vg1sr6> Sgeo isn't a player right
21:35:36 <Warrigal> mib_vg1sr6: ##nomic?
21:35:41 <mib_vg1sr6> no. :D
21:35:46 <Warrigal> Okay.
21:35:48 <mib_vg1sr6> lazy
21:35:51 <Warrigal> Why wouldn't he be a player?
21:36:05 <mib_vg1sr6> only outsiders can become players
21:36:12 <mib_vg1sr6> and he wasn't an outsider
21:36:15 <mib_vg1sr6> just an external force
21:36:17 <mib_vg1sr6> wait
21:36:21 <mib_vg1sr6> he registered just before era 5
21:36:23 <mib_vg1sr6> OK then
21:38:28 * oerjan trusts that this makes sense somehow
21:38:44 <ais523> oerjan: it makes sense in context; however, the context itself does not make sense
21:39:27 <oerjan> gnerp
21:41:30 <Warrigal> The context itself makes plenty of sense.
21:43:01 <mib_vg1sr6> B Nomic does not make sense.
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21:57:34 <GregorR> Since when does xchat crash all the effing time X_X
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21:59:28 <mib_vg1sr6> GregorR: since it sucks wang
21:59:32 <mib_vg1sr6> (forever)
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2008-12-27
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00:51:23 <oklopol> o
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01:08:02 <psygnisf_> oko
01:21:26 <oklopol> ooooo
01:21:41 <ais523> opopopo
01:30:14 <psygnisf_> koko
01:35:29 <oklopol> size
01:35:38 <ais523> assize
01:42:47 <Warrigal> Assassinate.
01:47:52 <oklopol> basmati senate
01:47:56 <oklopol> sleep! ->
01:49:11 <Warrigal> Etanissassa.
01:49:14 <Warrigal> A tiny saucer.
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08:32:27 <Mony> plop guys :)
08:32:36 <SpaceManPlusPlus> hi.
08:32:56 <Mony> how are you ?
08:32:56 <SpaceManPlusPlus> im using a homebrew app
08:33:15 <SpaceManPlusPlus> i created a new esoteric language
08:35:41 <SpaceManPlusPlus> im going to browse esilang, bye
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16:01:22 -!- oklopol has set topic: THIS IS THE LINK TO THE LOGS >>> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ <<< IT'S FUCKING ANNOYING HAVING TO GOOGLE IT ALL THE TIME, IF SOMEONE REMOVES IT AGAIN, I WILL put it back.
16:07:41 -!- mib_c2zegu has set topic: I love your mom.
16:12:22 -!- oklopol has set topic: THIS IS THE LINK TO THE LOGS >>> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ <<< IT'S FUCKING ANNOYING HAVING TO GOOGLE IT ALL THE TIME, IF SOMEONE REMOVES IT AGAIN, I WILL put it back.
16:12:52 <Mony> hum...
16:12:56 <Mony> hi oklopol :p
16:13:00 <oklopol> hi Mony
16:13:19 <Mony> did you see my esolang ?
16:13:24 <oklopol> yep
16:13:30 <Mony> it's my very first esolang so ...
16:14:06 <oklopol> relink it if you want a comment, i don't remember much, since it wasn't fundamentally different from the mass
16:14:27 <oklopol> (not much is)
16:14:40 <Mony> here it is http://mony.servhome.org/esolang/h0rR0r.html
16:16:34 <oklopol> and a goto was added right?
16:16:46 <Mony> yah
16:16:57 <Mony> but i don't remember how they work -_-
16:17:03 <oklopol> haha
16:17:36 <Mony> in fact, i made this esolangs some weeks ago
16:17:45 <oklopol> well, comment on that subset, it doesn't really have any computational powah
16:17:54 <oklopol> do you have bignums
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16:20:11 <Mony> bignums ?
16:23:13 <mib_c2zegu> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001201.html Whine whine whine bitch bitch bitch. I wish Jeff Atwood would just go die or something.
16:30:49 <oklopol> i didn't find that all that annoying
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18:03:18 <oerjan> what a horrible threat
18:03:32 <ais523> yes
18:03:38 <ais523> well done oklopol for setting that
18:03:49 -!- mib_c2zegu has set topic: BLOOD AND FIRE.
18:04:35 * oerjan hits mib_c2zegu with the saucepan ====\___/
18:05:00 -!- ais523 has set topic: THIS IS THE LINK TO THE LOGS >>> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ <<< IT'S FUCKING ANNOYING HAVING TO GOOGLE IT ALL THE TIME, IF SOMEONE REMOVES IT AGAIN, oklopol WILL put it back.
18:05:26 -!- mib_c2zegu has set topic: oklopol SHALL change this topic.
18:05:40 -!- mib_c2zegu has set topic: oklopol SHALL change this topic. everyone else SHALL NOT.
18:06:39 * Mony hits plop with the saucepan ====\___/
18:06:41 -!- oerjan has set topic: oklopol SHALL change this topic. everyone else SHALL NOT. or ELSE..
18:06:43 <Mony> \o/
18:06:55 -!- ais523 has set topic: THIS IS THE LINK TO THE LOGS >>> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ <<< IT'S FUCKING ANNOYING HAVING TO GOOGLE IT ALL THE TIME, IF SOMEONE [probably ehird] REMOVES IT AGAIN, SOMEONE [quite possibly oklopol] WILL put it back.
18:07:02 <ais523> oerjan: or else they'll be me
18:08:35 <oklopol> :-D
18:08:44 <oklopol> btw j is pretty awesome, have i mentioned
18:08:55 <oerjan> oklopol: i'm pretty sure
18:08:55 <ais523> possibly, I know ehird mentions it often enough
18:09:03 <oklopol> hmm. does he now?
18:09:28 <oklopol> well. he should, since it's pretty awesome.
18:10:09 <oklopol> also building about 1000 pages of tutorial labs into the interpreter kinda makes it hard to lazy out of learning the language
18:10:23 <oklopol> i mean i can just start the interp, and "hmm. what should i do? oh! maybe read another lab."
18:10:54 <oklopol> and you can play with the language as you go, test all the things you learn, because the lab runs in the repl
18:10:59 <oklopol> that's pretty awesome too.
18:11:13 * oklopol continues, more random praise in a moment.
18:11:44 <mib_c2zegu> hrmph.
18:14:54 <oerjan> j cures malaria and prevents babies from crying. it also can be usedas a laundry detergent.
18:22:26 <oklopol> (*:^:_1) 4 <<< *: is square, ^:_1 applies it minus i times; evaluates to 2
18:22:40 <mib_c2zegu> ^:_1 applies it minus i times
18:22:41 <mib_c2zegu> wat
18:22:42 <oklopol> *minus 1 times
18:23:27 <oklopol> (*:^:7) 2 would be *: *: *: *: *: *: *: 2
18:23:45 <oklopol> (*:^:_1) 4 is naturally the square root of 4
18:23:53 <mib_c2zegu> how can you apply negative times
18:24:01 <oklopol> through magic :D
18:24:03 <ais523> grr... J should stop looking like Underload, it's confusing me
18:24:14 <oklopol> i'm assuming a verb can contain info about how to negate its effects
18:24:39 <oklopol> this is mainly used for conjunctions that first apply ^:1 of a verb, then ^:_1
18:25:22 <oklopol> for instance stuff like geometric mean can be done by having the stages of squaring and square rooting kinda wrapped over the part where you just do arithmetic mean
18:25:30 <oklopol> in quite a pretty way
18:26:04 <oklopol> because you don't have to provide squaring and square rooting separately, just the square will do as long as it knows how it's effects are negated
18:27:24 <oklopol> also i don't know how to specify the function for negating a function, or how to specify other things functions can have, like units (0 for + and 1 for *)
18:27:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, talking about reversible programs or?
18:27:47 <oklopol> and i don't know whether you can add concepts like this yourself, i'm assuming you can't, but wouldn't be the first surprise
18:27:55 <oklopol> AnMaster: not really
18:27:59 <AnMaster> ah
18:28:01 <AnMaster> what then?
18:28:10 <ais523> reversible functions, I think
18:28:28 <AnMaster> oh? Sounds quite similar, if you have the result you can get the arguments
18:28:33 <oklopol> being able to annotate functions with certain info higher-order functions need.
18:29:09 <oklopol> not the same thing, reversible programming would require the language to be able to look inside functions, and do algebra
18:29:11 <AnMaster> however lots of functions can't be reversed, just consider additions, you have to know at least two of: a + b = c, to get the third
18:29:14 <oklopol> i mean
18:29:21 <oklopol> making functions reversible
18:29:32 <oklopol> if the language is reversible, that's a whole another issue of course
18:29:53 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes. but you're missing the point
18:29:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, there is an reversible programming language at the esolang wiki iirc
18:29:59 <AnMaster> forgot the name
18:30:05 <AnMaster> 2D iirc
18:30:11 <oklopol> there are many,
18:30:16 <oklopol> has nothing to do with this.
18:30:16 <AnMaster> ok
18:30:19 <AnMaster> hm ok
18:30:33 <oklopol> this is about... well i just said
18:30:37 <oklopol> being able to annotate functions with certain info higher-order functions need.
18:30:49 <AnMaster> oklopol, and that isn't very clear
18:31:03 <mib_c2zegu> yes it is.
18:31:13 <oklopol> i'm elaborating, be patient. things like what / (fold) should use as the unit when given an empty list as arg
18:31:20 <oklopol> + has 0, * has 1
18:31:33 <oklopol> so +/ 0$0 would be 0, and */ 0$0 would be 1
18:31:41 <AnMaster> hm
18:31:45 <oklopol> (0$0 is just a hacky way to make an empty list)
18:31:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, what language is this?
18:32:02 <oklopol> this is J
18:32:05 <AnMaster> spec?
18:32:23 <mib_c2zegu> jsoftware.com
18:32:26 <ais523> is the spec closed-source, or just the implementation?
18:32:34 <oklopol> i don't know and i don't care
18:32:37 <mib_c2zegu> clicky: http://www.jsoftware.com/
18:32:49 <mib_c2zegu> now watch AnMaster rant about how much it sucks because its' closed
18:33:27 <oklopol> AnMaster: reversability here was just an example of something you can annotate a function with: have another function to reverse it with, somehow stored with the function
18:33:50 <AnMaster> hm
18:33:57 <AnMaster> is this an esolang or?
18:34:00 <mib_c2zegu> no.
18:34:05 <mib_c2zegu> you could have clicked the link...
18:34:07 <ais523> it's meant to be serious, it acts a bit like an esolang now
18:34:16 <AnMaster> mib_c2zegu, I was waiting for browser to load
18:34:17 <AnMaster> ...
18:34:22 <ais523> I see many similarities with Overload, for instance, although also differences
18:34:27 <mib_c2zegu> Slow computer.
18:34:28 <ais523> J's a lot faster, for one thing, and has more syntax
18:34:47 <AnMaster> mib_c2zegu, rather: fast computer rendering images with raytracing
18:35:01 <oklopol> J's syntax seems very clever, it solves some of the problems i was struggling with with oklotalk simply better than i did
18:35:06 <AnMaster> so result is slow for everything else
18:35:09 <oklopol> and i don't admit that easily
18:35:38 <ais523> I think J is a non-esolang that does well at solving many of the problems in implementing an oklotalk/Overload-style esolang (something multiple people here have obviously thought of)
18:35:56 <AnMaster> hm
18:36:40 <oklopol> well one of J's greatest benefits is having an incredible amount of *algorithmic* modules
18:36:56 <oklopol> i mean, yeah, java and python have a million networking modules. who gives a shit.
18:38:04 <oklopol> or, at least if the small subset i've seen is, in fact, a small subset and not most of it :P
18:40:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, that is probably because J and Java try to solve different problems
18:43:40 <oklopol> true. j solves all problems, while java doesn't.
18:43:44 <oklopol> :-)
18:45:09 <oklopol> i don't know much about j's module facilities. there's a lab about Object Oriented Programming though, and i'm sure j + oo is better than not j + oo.
18:49:51 <oklopol> (to be honest i'm pretty sure it's really ugly)
18:50:03 <Asztal> which VPS host do you guys use?
18:50:29 <mib_c2zegu> slicehost.com
18:50:40 <mib_c2zegu> it's el greato maximus
18:50:42 <Asztal> ah, good, I was just looking at those
18:51:00 <mib_c2zegu> _0x44 from ##nomic works there :-)
18:55:41 <oklopol> mib_c2zegu: is that a permanent nick?
18:56:17 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: what?
18:56:36 <ais523> no, ehird's just using random mibbit links atm
18:56:50 <ais523> because for some reason he seems not to like using an IRC client but not a bouncer
18:56:57 <mib_c2zegu> lazy
18:57:02 <mib_c2zegu> my irc client is configured to my bouncer
18:57:22 <ais523> reconfiguring a client is easier than using Mibbit, IMO
18:58:10 <oklopol> so. no.
18:58:16 <mib_c2zegu> cmd-n mibbit enter click click Freenode click esoteric type click
18:58:17 <mib_c2zegu> vs
18:58:34 <oklopol> mib_c2zegu: wanna know something mind-blowing?
18:58:39 <mib_c2zegu> look thru menus, connections, delete, add, freenode, irc.freenode.net, add #esoteric, click, connect
18:58:40 <oklopol> assuming i didn't tell you yet.
18:58:43 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: sure
18:58:45 <ais523> vs F2 alt-e irc.freenode.net enter enter
18:58:52 <ais523> which is all it took to reconfigure my client
18:59:06 <mib_c2zegu> ais523: that does not join #esoteric.
18:59:07 <ais523> although I went through the menus because I forgot the keyboard shortcuts, so two clicks not F2
18:59:12 <ais523> mib_c2zegu: yes it does
18:59:14 <mib_c2zegu> also, I don't memorize the shortcuts for reconfiguring my irc client.
18:59:18 <mib_c2zegu> crazy I know.
18:59:22 <ais523> my client was set up to join #esoteric by default beforehand
18:59:27 <mib_c2zegu> ais523: that's cheating.
18:59:29 <oklopol> i tried a version control system
18:59:30 <mib_c2zegu> mine wasn't.
18:59:31 <ais523> via the bouncer
18:59:35 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: holy fuck. which one
18:59:37 <mib_c2zegu> please say git
19:04:24 <oklopol> nope
19:04:30 <oklopol> i was just the user of the system
19:04:34 <oklopol> used tortoisesvn
19:04:51 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: svn is kinda suck :{
19:04:52 <ais523> there are some development models svn is good for
19:05:00 <ais523> I've only once been in a situation where svn was useful, though
19:05:03 <mib_c2zegu> ais523: and they all work just as well with a dvcs
19:05:05 <ais523> and used it on more projects than one
19:05:12 <ais523> mib_c2zegu: pretty much, yes
19:05:17 <mib_c2zegu> cvcs's are an inferior subset of dvcs's
19:05:37 <ais523> although #interhack are using a dvcs, when they really need a cvcs I think
19:05:49 <ais523> at least, you get in trouble for doing something a cvcs couldn't do
19:05:52 <mib_c2zegu> ais523: no; they just have a bad development model
19:05:53 <oklopol> hey. at least i liked it. meaning i might even try the other options.
19:05:54 <mib_c2zegu> :P
19:06:01 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: you liked it? hoshit :D
19:06:12 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol is turning into an enterprise programmer :<
19:06:16 <oklopol> :DD
19:06:55 <oklopol> hey i'm moving from python to j now, clearly i'm struggling against it
19:07:02 <mib_c2zegu> lo
19:07:03 <mib_c2zegu> l
19:07:38 <oklopol> well actually i thought i'd start my language learning spree over, but this time actually learn the languages instead of just enough to forget it right away
19:08:01 <oklopol> and j and haskell are first
19:08:08 <mib_c2zegu> hee
19:08:31 * ais523 thinks there should be a lang like J, but more tinkerable
19:08:35 <oklopol> well haskell i know much better than i did j of course
19:09:39 <mib_c2zegu> j is tinkerable, no?
19:09:48 <ais523> yes, but you can always get more tinkerable
19:10:15 <oklopol> can you elaborate on tinkerable
19:10:41 <ais523> like, able to change things about the language
19:10:43 <ais523> like syntax
19:11:39 <oklopol> mib_c2zegu: what was the thing i was trying to solve in j?
19:11:45 <oklopol> when we had the whole #j episode
19:11:57 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: err, factorial with @ or something
19:12:35 <oklopol> (#j has both an autoinvite on part, and autoban on join-flood, it's a fun channel to part considering i have autojoin on invite :DD)
19:12:54 <ais523> autoinvite on part? why?
19:13:06 <oklopol> ais523: because quakenet
19:13:14 <ais523> could you elaborate?
19:13:18 <oklopol> well it's inhabited by gamers
19:13:39 <oklopol> i dunno. just seems like a very quakenety thing to do
19:13:45 <ais523> hmm... does the autoinvite do anything but cause people to rejoin the channel?
19:13:57 <mib_c2zegu> it asks them to rejoin
19:13:59 <mib_c2zegu> obviously
19:14:03 <mib_c2zegu> with an invite
19:14:06 <oklopol> ais523: it may cause them to rejoin if their clients are like that
19:14:08 <mib_c2zegu> very quakenet, I agree
19:14:08 <ais523> I mean, anything else?
19:14:11 <mib_c2zegu> ais523: no
19:14:19 <ais523> the invite doesn't let them join voiced, for instance?
19:14:21 <oklopol> otherwise it does nothing, because why would someone rejoin if they just parted
19:14:40 <mib_c2zegu> ais523: it's just to get them to come back.
19:15:15 <oklopol> ais523: i doubt that, they should be voiced if Q-bot considers them worthy
19:17:34 <oklopol> mib_c2zegu: the reason for why i couldn't get it to work is @: is function composition, and the @ i used is actually not, it has a small difference, it uses the rank of the latter verb for both verbs
19:17:54 <oklopol> rank is kinda like whether arguments are of type [a] or [[a]].
19:18:02 <mib_c2zegu> yes you said
19:18:03 <oklopol> or just a
19:18:09 <oklopol> well yes
19:18:12 <oklopol> but i didn't actually know :P
19:18:15 <oklopol> now i do
19:18:27 <oklopol> it was just a sophisticated guess back then
19:18:46 <oklopol> i guess that's a bit irrelevant from your perspective.
19:35:37 -!- oerjan has quit ("Trying a reboot").
19:39:00 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:13:01 <oklopol> so, tonight, programming or algorithms?
20:13:29 <mib_c2zegu> programming
20:13:34 <oerjan> documentation
20:13:50 * oerjan cackles evilly
20:14:36 <oklopol> oerjan: not much difference :<
20:14:50 <mib_c2zegu> programming is documentating YOUR MOTHER
20:15:32 <oklopol> RIR
20:17:44 <oerjan> RIR?
20:19:51 <oklopol> RIRIRIR
20:27:30 -!- Judofyr has joined.
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20:28:04 -!- Judofyr has joined.
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20:57:54 <oklopol> o
20:58:27 <ais523> oko
21:02:30 <oklopol> oko
21:02:34 <ais523> o
21:02:37 <oklopol> o
21:02:41 <ais523> oko
21:02:43 <oklopol> okoko
21:02:50 <ais523> okokoko
21:02:52 <oklopol> oko
21:03:26 <ais523> okokokokoko
21:03:31 <ais523> o
21:03:38 <oklopol> okoko
21:03:42 <ais523> oko
21:03:44 <oklopol> o
21:04:26 <Mony> okookokk
21:04:41 <ais523> kookook
21:05:07 <Mony> ok?ok!Ok.
21:05:21 <Sgeo> Ook? Ook!
21:05:29 <ais523> let's play Nim with okos
21:05:49 * Sgeo should probably look up Ni,
21:05:51 <Sgeo> Nim
21:05:57 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:05:57 <ais523> it's a good game, and very simple
21:06:04 <ais523> basically, you start with a certain number of piles of objects
21:06:07 <ais523> okos in this case
21:06:15 <ais523> players take turns to remove objects from a pile
21:06:24 <ais523> as in, you can remove any number of objects but they all have to be in the same pile
21:06:30 <ais523> whoever takes the last object loses
21:06:54 <Sgeo> Isn't Nim solved or something?
21:06:58 <oklopol> yes
21:07:18 <ais523> yes, it is, that's why I'll beat you at it
21:07:27 <ais523> unless you start in a winning position and either have also solved it, or are lucky
21:07:52 <oklopol> you have to be exponentially lucky
21:08:12 <ais523> yes
21:08:25 <Sgeo> You'd be the one choosing who goes first?
21:08:32 * Sgeo is looking at it on Wikipedia
21:08:38 <oklopol> no
21:08:46 <oklopol> err.
21:08:54 <oklopol> yeah that's not enough
21:08:55 <ais523> if I choose who goes first and there are two players, I'll win unless I screw up really badly
21:09:03 <ais523> even if someone else chose the board before that
21:09:09 <ais523> i.e. the starting position
21:09:26 <oklopol> now, is it pspace-complete if you have two stacks?
21:09:37 <oerjan> huh?
21:10:07 <oerjan> i would imagine it is logspace
21:10:09 <oklopol> oerjan: well in pspace, but not known to be in np, isn't that the usual game classification
21:10:20 <oklopol> hmm
21:10:20 <oerjan> far below pspace
21:10:30 <ais523> the strategy for winning it is O(log n), where n's the largest stack you have remaining
21:10:42 <oklopol> hmm
21:11:27 <oerjan> by stack you mean pile?
21:11:29 <oklopol> hmm. yeah okay it doesn't really make the game more interesting
21:11:43 <oklopol> oerjan: umm. well yes
21:11:44 <ais523> oerjan: yes
21:11:50 <oklopol> oh, ais523
21:11:57 <oklopol> oh, me too
21:12:23 <oklopol> hmm.
21:12:30 <oklopol> how about some kinda graph...
21:12:54 <oerjan> see hackenbush, i think
21:13:15 <oklopol> no that's just either the original or multiple stacks if you can cut it into a forest
21:13:21 <oklopol> hackenbush? k
21:14:43 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackenbush
21:15:19 <oerjan> and sprouts
21:15:46 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprouts_(game)
21:15:59 <ais523> sprouts with oko wouldn't really work
21:16:51 * oerjan once played sprouts with conway in person
21:17:14 <ais523> who won?
21:17:17 <ais523> and wow
21:17:17 <oerjan> of course i lost, since i hadn't seen the game before
21:18:10 * oerjan hasn't really tried learning it since either
21:18:50 <ais523> brussels sprouts always has the same winner no matter who plays where
21:18:59 <oklopol> :D
21:20:12 <oklopol> ahh, hackenbrush is essentially my graph idea, except when split into components, some components are removed from the game
21:20:29 <oklopol> == nim -> game
21:20:45 <oklopol> oerjan: how come you've seen a celebrity?
21:21:21 <oerjan> he was giving a lecture in seattle when i was there during my ph.d.
21:22:43 <oerjan> and afterwards there were some discussions in the institute's lunch room
21:23:11 <oerjan> (the lecture was on surreal numbers iirc)
21:23:58 <oklopol> you have an awesome life
21:25:10 <ais523> oklopol: was that sentence an attempt at alphanumeric-only oko?
21:30:17 <oklopol> ...yes of course
21:31:07 <oklopol> so
21:31:09 <oklopol> what if
21:31:11 <oklopol> o
21:31:15 <oklopol> o's were
21:31:16 <oklopol> umm
21:31:21 <oklopol> on the ground
21:31:59 <oklopol> and a word, "xozy", for instance, meant the graph consisting of the characters of english, contained the path xozy
21:32:08 <oklopol> linking x, o, z and y
21:32:26 <oklopol> so you could eodermdrome hackenbrush
21:32:40 <oerjan> now if you mix scrabble into that...
21:32:48 <oklopol> :P
21:32:50 <oklopol> oh wait
21:33:00 <oklopol> nim is still an incomplete game if everyone can remove any line?
21:33:04 <oklopol> hmm.
21:33:21 <oerjan> what do you mean incomplete?
21:33:35 <oklopol> an incomplete game, trivial
21:33:52 <oklopol> dunno.
21:33:55 <oklopol> hmm
21:33:59 <oerjan> see the sprague-grundy theorem linked from the hackenbush article
21:34:29 <oklopol> ah
21:34:31 <oklopol> !
21:34:50 <oerjan> not that that implies complete triviality. sprouts hasn't been completely solved despite being theoretically under that theorem
21:35:04 <oklopol> alright
21:35:40 <oklopol> oooooooooo
21:35:52 <oklopol> now
21:35:59 <GregorR> *boom*
21:36:20 <oerjan> the red-blue-(green) hackenbush described is sort of to get conway's general games rather than just nimbers
21:36:25 <oklopol> how about someone start the game, the obvious scrabble rule is you can only use english words when doing transformations
21:36:55 <oerjan> (or so i assume, i haven't actually read that book)
21:53:50 -!- Judofyr_ has joined.
21:54:10 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:54:13 <mib_c2zegu> hi Judofyr_
21:54:41 <Judofyr_> hi :-)
21:54:43 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr.
21:54:53 <Judofyr> wazzzzzzup?
21:55:06 <mib_c2zegu> the sky
21:55:18 <Judofyr> oh
21:55:30 <mib_c2zegu> duh.
21:55:53 <Judofyr> what book should I buy from Amazon?
21:55:57 <Judofyr> say one
21:55:59 <Judofyr> a good one
21:56:06 <mib_c2zegu> one\na good one
21:56:08 <mib_c2zegu> >
21:56:14 <mib_c2zegu> err how abou
21:56:15 <mib_c2zegu> t
21:56:20 <mib_c2zegu> Enterprise Esoteric Programming: From Brainfuck to Underload
21:56:24 <mib_c2zegu> by Fake T. Name
21:56:37 <Judofyr> I would love that book!
21:56:45 <mib_c2zegu> yes!
21:56:48 * mib_c2zegu = ehird
21:56:52 <ais523> so would I
21:57:00 <mib_c2zegu> I should write a book about esolangs
21:57:00 <ais523> pity it doesn't exist
21:57:02 <mib_c2zegu> it'd be awesome.
21:57:12 <ais523> actually, I think it might be interesting to convert Esolang the wiki into book form
21:57:25 <Judofyr> mib_c2zegu: why the heck are you mib_c2zegu and not ehird?
21:57:31 <ais523> together with commentary
21:57:36 <mib_c2zegu> Judofyr: mibbit
21:57:37 <ais523> and explanations
21:57:47 <ais523> Judofyr: because he's too lazy to change the default nick, even with /nick
21:58:03 <mib_c2zegu> ais523: better idea: cite it with little footnotes in the book, except have it reference it as saying stuff entirely different from what it does
21:58:04 <Judofyr> ah
21:58:08 <Judofyr> understandable
21:58:26 <ais523> mib_c2zegu: why?
21:58:30 <ais523> that would mean a lot more writing
21:58:34 <mib_c2zegu> ais523: because that's esoteric
21:58:41 <mib_c2zegu> also, writing a book about esolangs sounds fun
21:58:50 <mib_c2zegu> (so does playing with its typography for 7 years)
21:59:14 <Judofyr> brb
21:59:21 <Judofyr> the toilet needs me
21:59:59 <mib_c2zegu> uh, thanks.
22:02:18 <Judofyr> back!
22:02:26 <Judofyr> but seriously, a good book?
22:02:34 <mib_c2zegu> sicp :-P
22:02:39 <Judofyr> right now I got SICP and The Little Schemer in my cart :P
22:02:51 <Judofyr> and the From NAND to Tetris-book
22:02:55 <mib_c2zegu> enterprise javabean development with struts
22:02:57 <oklopol> well everyone needs rwh
22:03:05 <mib_c2zegu> oh yeah, throw in rwh
22:03:10 <Judofyr> rwh?
22:03:14 <oklopol> rwh.
22:03:14 <mib_c2zegu> real world haskell
22:03:18 <mib_c2zegu> http://www.realworldhaskell.org/
22:03:19 <Judofyr> ah
22:03:29 -!- mib_c2zegu has set topic: functional programming weenies..
22:03:57 <Judofyr> hm... haskell?
22:03:58 <Judofyr> really?
22:04:02 <mib_c2zegu> what about it?
22:04:05 -!- oklopol has set topic: functional programming weenies. also THIS IS THE LINK TO THE LOGS >>> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ <<< IT'S FUCKING ANNOYING HAVING TO GOOGLE IT ALL THE TIME, IF SOMEONE REMOVES IT AGAIN, I WILL put it back.
22:04:06 <mib_c2zegu> haskell is cool.
22:04:52 <ais523> I like Haskell
22:05:07 <ais523> btw, anyone know how to write a recursive function with base case inside the GHCi REPL?
22:05:12 <ais523> it's easy enough in an actual program
22:05:17 <ais523> func 0 = ...
22:05:20 <ais523> func x = ...
22:05:23 <mib_c2zegu> ais523: ;
22:05:23 <ais523> but that doesn't work inside the REPL
22:05:25 <mib_c2zegu> instead of \n
22:05:28 <mib_c2zegu> actually
22:05:31 <mib_c2zegu> you can do \n too
22:05:32 <mib_c2zegu> let func 0 = ...
22:05:35 <mib_c2zegu> let func x = ...
22:05:40 <ais523> IIRC I tried that
22:05:45 <ais523> and the second definition overwrote the first
22:05:48 <mib_c2zegu> oh, right
22:05:50 <ais523> and I got a syntax error when I used a ;
22:05:51 <mib_c2zegu> well do the first first!
22:05:57 <mib_c2zegu> let func 0 = ...; func x = ...
22:06:06 <ais523> ah, that might be it
22:06:07 <mib_c2zegu> yeah
22:06:08 <mib_c2zegu> do that
22:06:10 <mib_c2zegu> it is it
22:06:10 <mib_c2zegu> :P
22:07:34 <oklopol> o
22:07:41 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:09:41 <Judofyr> I'm thinking of buy Programming in Lua
22:09:55 <Judofyr> what you think about Lua?
22:10:03 <mib_c2zegu> Lua is alright, but I wouldn't buy a book about it
22:10:34 <ais523> I wouldn't buy a book about most langs, though
22:10:38 <ais523> I'd just download a free one
22:10:48 <mib_c2zegu> I would buy a book about my language! Despite there not existing one! <.<
22:11:08 * ais523 remembers the fun he had trying to cite in an academic paper a book he downloaded via the Debian/Ubuntu repos
22:11:13 <ais523> "published on the Internet, but not the Web"
22:11:33 <oerjan> you know, with all those fingerprints "Practical Befunge" almost sounds like a reasonable idea
22:11:39 <ais523> yes
22:11:48 <mib_c2zegu> I should write Practical Befunge.
22:11:49 <ais523> and INTERCAL is almost practical, it just needs better string-handling
22:11:53 <mib_c2zegu> In fact, I should just write a series of books on esolangs.
22:11:59 <mib_c2zegu> Who wouldn't buy them?
22:12:13 <mib_c2zegu> They would, of course, treat the subject entirely seriously.
22:12:16 <mib_c2zegu> :D
22:12:31 <ais523> and Underlambda is meant to be practical eventually, once I finish it
22:12:34 <Judofyr> okey. more books I *really* should read!
22:12:41 <Mony> 'night
22:12:44 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit").
22:13:27 <oklopol> Judofyr: algorithm design is a pretty fun book
22:13:29 <Judofyr> it's evil to say goodbye before you can respond :-(
22:13:55 <oklopol> Mony is like that, plops in and 'nights out, doesn't have a care in the world
22:14:07 <oerjan> Judofyr: i kept seeing Concepts Techniques and Models of Computer Programming recommended when i was following Lambda The Ultimate
22:14:10 <Judofyr> probably an /amsg
22:14:56 <oklopol> i recently read the first four or so chapters of ctmcp
22:15:00 <ais523> Mony has distilled the essence of eso
22:15:03 <oklopol> it was quite enlightening
22:15:07 <mib_c2zegu> haha
22:15:09 <ais523> (which is different from oklopol, who /is/ the essence of eso)
22:16:08 <oerjan> Judofyr: also, i prefer to say my goodbyes in my quit message. saves everyone work.
22:16:23 <oklopol> it describes the language oz via a nice set notation
22:16:39 <oklopol> essentially describes an interpreter in math
22:16:59 <ais523> Chaitin apparently once wrote a Diophantine equation which implemented Lisp
22:17:12 <oklopol> adds concepts as they are discussed, dataflow variables, lazy evaluation, exceptions etc
22:17:18 <oklopol> so.
22:17:20 <oklopol> i recommend too.
22:17:29 <ais523> <oklopol> so. <--- so what?
22:17:36 <oklopol> i recommend too. <<< this.
22:17:43 <ais523> sorry, I've been waiting to make that joke for months
22:17:46 <oklopol> :D
22:17:58 <oklopol> well. that's funnier than the actual joke :P
22:18:03 <ais523> oh dear, I must be turning into AnMaster
22:18:59 <oklopol> i was planning to buy ctmcp myself, but sicp won for now
22:19:30 <oklopol> since i can just borrow a brand new ctmcp from the lib if i have the time to continue on in
22:21:09 <oerjan> hm actually Lambda the Ultimate had a book list
22:21:42 <oklopol> link it so i can read them all
22:21:58 <oerjan> i've got to find it again first
22:24:12 <oerjan> hm it may have been a thread actually, possibly this one: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/492
22:43:48 <oklopol> o
22:44:26 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night BWAHAHAHA").
22:44:53 <mib_c2zegu> hrmph
22:54:34 <oklopol> god i hate java
22:55:33 <oklopol> it kills my creativity
22:55:58 <oklopol> i just end up slowly writing up a crappy solution and thinking "python is so much nicer"
22:56:22 <ais523> so does everyone else who knows both Java and Python
22:56:24 <oklopol> it's not that you can't do things well with java, it's just i just can't, because i hate it
22:56:30 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: use Jython
22:56:31 <mib_c2zegu> :P
22:56:37 <mib_c2zegu> just replace your whole program with sth like
22:56:41 <oklopol> well yeah that probably would've been a good solution
22:56:45 <mib_c2zegu> (new JythonInterpreter()).eval("PYTHON YAY");
22:56:57 <oklopol> i just thought, since this is a trivial little application, it doesn't matter how i do it
22:57:01 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol let's make a language based on kittens
22:58:03 <oklopol> it's just even a trivial program takes ages to write considering most of my coding time is just looking at the source and hoping the 15 lines to do something trivial would write itself.
22:58:11 <oklopol> because i don't want to write 15 lines to do something trivial
22:58:21 <oklopol> i want trivial things to be trivial :<
22:58:59 <oklopol> almost done though, yay.
23:02:11 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: write a java module called Shit.java
23:02:18 <mib_c2zegu> that contains shit that makes life a little less painful.
23:02:28 <mib_c2zegu> heck, you could even fake lambdas:
23:02:40 <mib_c2zegu> new L(){void c(){...}}
23:02:41 <oklopol> yes, i should do that
23:02:51 <oklopol> the problem is, i don't want to.
23:02:52 <mib_c2zegu> that's only like 100 characters bigger than python's lambdas
23:02:52 <mib_c2zegu> :P
23:03:00 <oklopol> because i don't want to use java
23:03:01 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: I'll write it for you. Because I am so kind/
23:03:05 <mib_c2zegu> and bored
23:03:15 <oklopol> so as a protest, i'm punishing myself by doing everything the hard way
23:03:42 <mib_c2zegu> i wonder if "package net.freenode.irc.esoteric;" is acceptable :-P
23:03:44 <oklopol> for instance i'm not using any kind of serialization, because you can't do it functionally.
23:04:02 <oklopol> if you can't write serialize(object) or something conceptually as simple, the language is flawed.
23:04:18 <oklopol> well not the language necessarily, but the stdlib anyway
23:04:51 <ais523> Underlambda has S and D commands
23:04:59 <ais523> which serialise and deserialise something, respectively
23:05:03 <ais523> to stdout or from stdin
23:05:17 <mib_c2zegu> obj serialize
23:05:21 <mib_c2zegu> "" deserialize
23:05:27 <mib_c2zegu> ^ my vaporware language
23:06:28 <oklopol> serialization is ugly the way it's done in most languages
23:06:52 <oklopol> i mean, if serialization is done to get a bitstring out of an object, so you can send it over a network, or put it in a file
23:07:18 <mib_c2zegu> obj serializeTo: stream
23:07:20 <oklopol> that's just retarded, you shouldn't have to have two conceptual representations of an object, and have different things use different represenations
23:07:20 <mib_c2zegu> :P
23:07:24 <oklopol> *representations
23:07:31 <oklopol> that should be hidden from the programmer completely
23:07:31 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: it's not a conceptual representation
23:07:35 <mib_c2zegu> an object "has" no representation
23:07:43 <mib_c2zegu> an object just is
23:07:52 <mib_c2zegu> serializing is giving it a bytestring representation
23:08:42 <oklopol> can't really think where that'd be useful, except maybe for hash values, but that should be in the stdlib anyway
23:09:00 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: putting on a disk?
23:09:02 <mib_c2zegu> or whatever
23:09:08 <mib_c2zegu> you can't put plain objects on to disk
23:09:11 <mib_c2zegu> it's just a fact
23:09:16 <mib_c2zegu> the disk is made up of bytes
23:09:17 <oklopol> :|
23:09:21 <mib_c2zegu> objects, being conceptual, aren't
23:09:40 <ais523> in Underlambda, one neat trick is to serialise a continuation
23:09:41 <oklopol> i don't see where it'd be useful to think of the disk as made up of bytes
23:09:44 <ais523> gives a trivial way to save your program
23:09:46 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: because it _is_
23:09:55 <mib_c2zegu> do you want your language to -lie- to you?
23:10:01 <mib_c2zegu> the disk is made up of bytes in files.
23:10:02 <mib_c2zegu> end of.
23:10:05 <ais523> you write the serialised continuation out to disk; to run the program from there, just deserialise and give it an argument
23:10:24 <oklopol> mib_c2zegu: it's just a different level of abstraction to think of it as not being made up of bytes
23:10:33 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: no -- it's a layer on top of
23:10:35 <oklopol> an abstraction that doesn't lose generality
23:10:43 <mib_c2zegu> it's not a different level, it's a new abstraction
23:11:08 <GregorR> "IF SOMEONE REMOVES IT AGAIN, I WILL put it back"
23:11:11 <GregorR> What a threat
23:11:19 <oklopol> :-)
23:13:37 <oklopol> anyway mib_c2zegu, what's the problem with that abstraction?
23:14:05 <oklopol> i mean the fact it's made up of bytes so the programmer should know that too isn't really much of an argument
23:14:16 <mib_c2zegu> it stops the programmer using existing files which are made of bytes?
23:14:19 <oklopol> it's also made up of electricity, but the programmer doesn't know that
23:14:33 <mib_c2zegu> and stops them writing out files for use in other things which use them as bytes?
23:15:15 <oklopol> mib_c2zegu: that's a better argument, although i'm not really satisfied with it
23:15:33 <oklopol> there are better ways around that than serialization
23:15:42 <oklopol> raw mode should be an exception, not the standard
23:15:47 <mib_c2zegu> files are made of bytes, this is the API exposed to the programmer from the OS (electricity isn't), and the rest of the universe expects them to be bytes
23:15:57 <mib_c2zegu> and it's more useful to create files that work with everything else, and read them, than just this language
23:15:58 <mib_c2zegu> in general
23:16:03 <mib_c2zegu> so the most common case should be default
23:16:35 <oklopol> well in the case of serialization, nothing else can read the file anyway
23:16:44 <oklopol> because serialization is specific to the language
23:16:47 <mib_c2zegu> yes
23:16:54 <mib_c2zegu> but serialization in that case can build on top of the byte exposing
23:16:59 <mib_c2zegu> and just be obj.serialize() -> String
23:17:16 <ais523> in Underlambda, serialisation is specific to the interp, or the executable in the case of compilation
23:18:07 <oklopol> mib_c2zegu: it can, yes, i still think it's not pretty.
23:18:16 <oklopol> if you don't agree, fine
23:18:34 <mib_c2zegu> yay, my java lambdas work
23:18:38 <mib_c2zegu> although they're hideously verbose
23:18:41 <mib_c2zegu> I think I can make them lesso
23:18:42 <mib_c2zegu> but,
23:19:00 <mib_c2zegu> L<String,String> addWorld = new L<String,String>() { public String _(String a) { return a + " world!'; }};
23:19:01 <mib_c2zegu> vs python
23:19:06 <mib_c2zegu> addWorld = lambda a: a + " world!"
23:19:22 <oklopol> :)
23:19:51 <oklopol> an example with multiple arguments would make the distinction even greater
23:20:03 <mib_c2zegu> yes, mine doesn't do multiple arguments
23:20:04 <ais523> well, Java's typed, so the specifying types everywhere is hardly surprising
23:20:08 <mib_c2zegu> put them in an array :P
23:20:10 <mib_c2zegu> ais523: Haskell:
23:20:13 <oklopol> mib_c2zegu: well i meant with an array
23:20:13 <oklopol> yeah
23:20:15 <mib_c2zegu> addWorld = \a -> a ++ " world!"
23:20:16 <mib_c2zegu> it's typed too :P
23:20:27 <ais523> at least you're using templates, even though Java's implementation of templates is stupid
23:20:30 <mib_c2zegu> java is just totally inexcusable as a language.
23:20:37 <mib_c2zegu> ais523: ah, wait, I should get rid of the template stuff
23:20:39 <mib_c2zegu> just make it Object
23:20:41 <mib_c2zegu> then there's less typing
23:20:53 <mib_c2zegu> no, I dont' care about safety :P
23:21:06 <oklopol> java isn't exactly type safe.
23:21:23 <oklopol> it's just annoying
23:21:46 <oklopol> haskell's type system has actually helped me a few times, java's is just in the way
23:21:58 <mib_c2zegu> L addWorld = new L(){public Object _(Object a){return a + " world!";}};
23:22:01 <mib_c2zegu> ^ that's better, slightly
23:22:07 <mib_c2zegu> now to see if I can eliminate those Object's
23:22:17 <mib_c2zegu> btw, you call like
23:22:20 <ais523> Java's sort of got an anti-type-system
23:22:21 <mib_c2zegu> lambda._(arg)
23:22:29 <ais523> it checks types at compile time, then forgets about them
23:22:33 <oklopol> yeah
23:22:46 <ais523> and at runtime it doesn't have any type information so you have to tell it what types things are all over again
23:22:55 <ais523> then it just errors if things are the wrong type, which can somehow happen anyway
23:23:33 <oklopol> java knows what type things are, just not the generic parameters, afaik
23:23:42 <oklopol> *types
23:23:54 <ais523> oklopol: not in cases of inheritance
23:23:58 <ais523> which you're doing all the time in OO langs
23:24:12 <oklopol> hmm.
23:24:14 <mib_c2zegu> damnit, you need to explicitly specify public for anon classes
23:24:20 <mib_c2zegu> I think I may have reached the limit here.
23:24:24 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure it does know the exact types.
23:24:30 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: are you wary of running a preprocessor over your program?
23:24:49 <oklopol> mib_c2zegu: do you expect me to use your system? :D
23:24:52 <mib_c2zegu> YES.
23:24:53 <mib_c2zegu> :)
23:24:56 <mib_c2zegu> I could write a python program that turned FUN(a -> a + " world!")
23:24:56 <oklopol> :D
23:24:57 <mib_c2zegu> into
23:24:58 <oklopol> well err.
23:25:11 <mib_c2zegu> new L(){public Object _(Object a){return (a + " world!");}}
23:25:12 <mib_c2zegu> :D
23:25:16 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: ISN'T THAT TEMPTING??
23:25:21 <mib_c2zegu> heck, you could even have maps.
23:25:26 <oklopol> but... can you make it infer the types so i don't have to do explicit type conversions?
23:25:39 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: well, perhaps
23:25:45 <mib_c2zegu> I may allow explicit types defaulting to Object
23:25:51 <mib_c2zegu> so you could do FUN(StupidType a -> ...)
23:26:26 <mib_c2zegu> Map._(FN(a -> a + " world!"), {"a","b","c"})
23:26:31 <mib_c2zegu> ^ that's pretty awesome I think.
23:26:37 <mib_c2zegu> i mean, as far as using java goes
23:26:42 <mib_c2zegu> I think that's pretty cool :P
23:28:19 <oklopol> hmm.
23:28:30 <oklopol> {"a","b","c"}?
23:28:41 <mib_c2zegu> tha's javas array literal syntax no?
23:28:49 <oklopol> i think it's more like new String[]{...}
23:28:59 <mib_c2zegu> well, whatever
23:29:06 <mib_c2zegu> it's still better than a hueg for loop and reassign and shit
23:29:31 <oklopol> anything is better than a loop
23:30:17 * mib_c2zegu wonders what to name the utils package
23:30:21 <mib_c2zegu> make.java.less.crap?
23:30:28 <oklopol> okay booker time.
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23:30:37 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: NOES.
23:30:38 <mib_c2zegu> :P
23:31:08 <oklopol> i wonder if british universities are as keen on java as finnish ones
23:31:14 <mib_c2zegu> maybe.
23:31:14 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol:
23:31:16 <mib_c2zegu> x+4 = 3
23:31:19 <mib_c2zegu> WHAT IS X
23:31:50 <oklopol> hmm
23:31:51 <oklopol> well
23:32:01 <Slereah> I don't know what X is
23:32:02 <oklopol> x+4 is a temporary object on the stack
23:32:08 <Slereah> I know what x is, though
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23:32:13 <oklopol> and we need to convert it to an lvalue
23:32:31 <oklopol> now, we have all integers as lvalues somewhere in the memory, for literals that is
23:32:53 <oklopol> we just look up the reference to where ever x + 4 is, and rewrite that to 3
23:33:08 <oklopol> x stays the same
23:33:11 <mib_c2zegu> The answer was x+4.3089£&
23:33:36 <oklopol> i don't understand
23:33:41 <oklopol> you will have to walk me through this.
23:33:43 <mib_c2zegu> k
23:33:45 <mib_c2zegu> $£56@£
23:33:51 <mib_c2zegu> have you noticed oklopol
23:33:55 <mib_c2zegu> I drew you from your book.
23:33:56 <mib_c2zegu> MWAHAHA
23:33:59 <oklopol> ...
23:34:03 <oklopol> oh my god!
23:34:04 <mib_c2zegu> er
23:34:05 <mib_c2zegu> forget I said that
23:34:06 <mib_c2zegu> <.<
23:34:07 <mib_c2zegu> so oklopol
23:34:08 <mib_c2zegu> what is x
23:34:17 <oklopol> i already told you
23:34:22 <mib_c2zegu> no you did not
23:34:31 <oklopol> wait i didn't?
23:34:32 <oklopol> hmm.
23:34:34 <mib_c2zegu> nope
23:34:38 <oklopol> let's see...
23:34:45 <oklopol> 01:32… oklopol: x stays the same <<< i so did,.
23:34:54 <oklopol> .,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.
23:34:58 <oklopol> ,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,
23:34:59 <mib_c2zegu> k
23:35:01 <mib_c2zegu> :P
23:35:04 <ais523> oklopol: that looks like BF
23:35:09 <oklopol> it is
23:35:26 <mib_c2zegu> import functional.java.Fn; public class Example { public static void main(String[] args) { System.out.println(FN(a => a + " world!")._("Hello,")); } }
23:35:43 <oklopol> it's an interactive conversation program
23:36:55 <oklopol> mib_c2zegu: ._ is ugly.
23:37:06 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: got a better idea?
23:37:09 <mib_c2zegu> I could also make it $
23:37:14 <oklopol> just make the trivial type inference code and use () :o
23:37:16 <mib_c2zegu> FN(a => a + " world!").$("Hello, ")
23:37:24 <mib_c2zegu> also, that can't be performed as a simple rewrite of the source
23:38:21 <oklopol> it can, although you need to infer the types of all callers
23:38:25 <oklopol> wait...
23:38:35 <oklopol> well yeah, more or less.
23:38:50 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: i don't think you understand, mine just runs a few regexs
23:38:51 <mib_c2zegu> :P
23:39:18 <oklopol> i know, i'm joking for teh most part :)
23:49:07 <mib_c2zegu> hmm, well basic compilationeration works
23:49:10 <mib_c2zegu> can't specify return type atm
23:49:22 <mib_c2zegu> can specify input tho
23:50:16 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: how should return valuamations be specified
23:50:18 <mib_c2zegu> I'm thinking liek
23:50:31 <mib_c2zegu> FN(a =>Object a + " world!")
23:50:32 <mib_c2zegu> or sth.
23:52:17 <oklopol> maybe have A=>B be reduced to L<A,B>, and use -> for lambdas
23:52:20 <oklopol> dunno.
23:52:29 <mib_c2zegu> mayb.
23:52:35 <mib_c2zegu> still
23:52:38 <mib_c2zegu> it compiles this:
23:52:39 <mib_c2zegu> import functional.java.*; public class Example { public static void main(String[] args) { System.out.println(FN(a => a + " world!")._("Hello,")); } }
23:52:40 <mib_c2zegu> into this:
23:52:44 <mib_c2zegu> import functional.java.*; public class Example { public static void main(String[] args) { System.out.println((new Lambda<Object,Object>() { public Object _(Object a) { return (a + " world!"); }})._("Hello,")); } }
23:52:46 <mib_c2zegu> not bad.
23:53:42 <oklopol> ooooooooooo
23:54:03 <oklopol> it's nice, but i can't help thinking it's also very trivial :P
23:54:10 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: shur, it is
23:54:14 <mib_c2zegu> but wait till I add more stuff :P
23:54:29 <oklopol> well yeah add all the stuff python has and i'm good to go
23:54:41 <mib_c2zegu> wellllll not all of it
23:54:49 <mib_c2zegu> oklopol: I'm just trying to avoid you committing suicide.
23:57:18 <oklopol> :)
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2008-12-28
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01:12:26 <oklopol> "soon. yes, i will speak better than you. soon"
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01:31:44 <oklopol> WELL LOOK WHO CAME BACK
01:32:02 <oklopol> i knew you'd come CRAWLING back
01:32:10 <oklopol> ...i mean hi
01:32:32 <ais523> hi oklopol
01:32:35 <ais523> and hi psygnisfive too
01:34:26 <psygnisfive> sup you
01:36:23 <ais523> I've been working on gcc-bf over the holidays
01:36:36 <ais523> it now reaches the stage where it generates buggy programs that don't work, as opposed to broken programs that don't run
01:36:55 <oklopol> i want a language where all code is written with either examples (kinda like in aardappel), or code; actual code could be like haskell's types, usually inferred, but you could fill it in explicitly where it's nontrivial
01:37:37 <ais523> hmm... you've just given me an idea for an esolang
01:37:41 <ais523> instead of telling it what to do
01:37:46 <ais523> you give it some inputs and some related outputs
01:37:52 <ais523> and it figures out what to do based on those
01:38:11 <oklopol> yes, but there should be ways to fill in the insides too
01:39:02 <oklopol> just giving general constraints like that will not actually amount to anything in practise, you should somehow be able to give it a bag of functions "that might be useful"
01:39:13 <oklopol> that it could then use to try to find something that fits the io-pairs
01:39:34 <oklopol> and these functions would be done the same way of course
01:40:33 <oklopol> for sorting, you might make a merge and a cut, and give it the bag {merge cut <recursion>}
01:40:40 <oklopol> and then just give a few pairs
01:41:27 <oklopol> basically you'd just do the "abstraction" step of making functions
01:41:46 <oklopol> and let the computer find the exact connections
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03:10:24 <oklopol> o
03:19:29 <oklopol> damn ais523 and his leavings
03:19:40 <oklopol> IF YOU'RE READING THIS, COME BACK AT ONCE.
03:54:44 <psygnisfive> HEY EVERYBODY
03:54:49 <psygnisfive> GUESS WHAT TIIIIME IT IS
03:54:52 <psygnisfive> THATS RIGHT
03:54:56 <psygnisfive> ITS TIME TO DANCE!
03:55:00 * psygnisfive dances
03:55:08 <Sgeo> o|-<
03:55:14 <psygnisfive> no
03:55:16 * psygnisfive smacks sgeo
03:55:31 <Sgeo> o>-<
03:56:59 <oklopol> i can't dance, i have nnscript :<
03:57:07 <Sgeo> nnscript?
03:57:12 <oklopol> it's a mirc thing
03:57:57 <oklopol> so. wanna see my current mergesort?
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03:58:24 <oklopol> i'll show it anyway, also for ais523 in case he reads the logs
03:58:25 <oklopol> shortlist ~ cutlast,[] : []>1;[4]>1;[6 7]>0
03:58:25 <oklopol> halve ~ cutfirst,cutlast,halve,prepend,append,shortlist : []>[],[];[1]>[],[1]|[1],[];[1 2]>[1],[2];[1 2 3 4]>[1 2],[3 4]
03:58:25 <oklopol> merge ~ cutfirst,lessthan,cutfirst,prepend,[] : [],[]>[];[3],[]>[3];[3],[2]>[2 3];[1 3],[2]>[1 2 3]
03:58:25 <oklopol> sort ~ merge,halve,sort,[] : []>[];[2]>[2];[2 3]>[2 3];[1]>[1];[3 1]>[1 3];[3]>[3];[2 3 1]>[1 2 3]
03:58:52 <oklopol> this is the concise syntax, i have a prettier one as well, but this should bring the point across
03:59:03 <oklopol> name ~ function bag : examples
03:59:31 <oklopol> examples are ;-separated, in>out, "," separates tuples, | for alternatives
04:00:29 <oklopol> also i found a way to get recursion and other reference cycles to work
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04:02:21 <oklopol> the gist is to have a whole recursion tree in the examples
04:02:51 <oklopol> meaning say you have the [1 3],[2]>[1 2 3] as one of merge's examples
04:03:33 <oklopol> you'd then also put [3],[2]>[2 3] and [3],[]>[3]
04:03:49 <oklopol> because that's how merge should recurse
04:04:25 <oklopol> it both hints the interp towards the right algo, and makes it tractable to check whether the current solution is right
04:09:48 <oklopol> also cookies
04:19:25 <oklopol> supercookies.
04:19:27 <oklopol> sleepy time ->
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07:27:36 <psygnisfive> lulz
07:27:40 <psygnisfive> i love haskellians
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13:45:08 <mib_7pojqg> grrrrrrrrrrr
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15:00:49 <mib_7pojqg> great, I have no drives that can rip pregaps.
15:02:49 <mib_7pojqg> :|
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15:28:00 <Mony> plop
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15:35:14 <mib_ub9ay1> "[...]so you can choose your preferred tradeoff between efficiency and being able to look at yourself in the mirror the next morning."
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16:08:19 <oklopol> what's that from
16:08:24 <mib_ub9ay1> reddit comment
16:08:30 <oklopol> about piracy?
16:08:32 <mib_ub9ay1> no
16:08:36 <oklopol> sex?
16:08:38 <mib_ub9ay1> something to do with algorithms of polygons
16:08:38 <mib_ub9ay1> and shit.
16:08:42 <oklopol> ...
16:08:43 <oklopol> :D
16:08:49 <mib_ub9ay1> oklopol: here:
16:08:52 <mib_ub9ay1> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7m108/ask_proggit_how_can_i_quickly_determine_which/5jik
16:09:29 <oklopol> oooooooo
16:20:04 <oklopol> o
16:20:05 <oklopol> o
16:20:06 <oklopol> o
16:20:12 <mib_ub9ay1> oko
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16:31:21 <oklopol> i can't say i understand it though
16:40:34 <mib_ub9ay1> :)
16:42:50 <oklopol> why exactly is it easier to look yourself in the mirror if you make things inefficient?
16:43:23 <oklopol> i mean heefficiency
16:43:25 <oklopol> ...
16:43:30 <mib_ub9ay1> oklopol: because the efficient algorithms are scary and black magicy and you'll feel dirty the day after.
16:43:34 <oklopol> *long typo correction to come
16:43:36 <oklopol> oh.
16:43:46 <oklopol> well right, didn't really see it that way
16:44:08 <oklopol> *no correction, would take too long
16:54:17 <mib_ub9ay1> "A Rare Blend of Monster Raving Egomania and Utter Batshit Insanity" -- on Wolfram-ANewKindofScience, http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/reviews/wolfram/
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17:03:08 <oerjan> <oklopol> why exactly is it easier to look yourself in the mirror if you make things inefficient?
17:03:36 <oerjan> premature optimization? something something dijkstra
17:04:00 <ais523> The first rule of optimisation is "Don't do it."
17:04:07 <ais523> The second rule of optimisation is "Don't do it yet."
17:04:30 <ais523> (The third rule is "Don't do it until you've carefully profiled your programs to find out where the bottlenecks are and what needs optimising", but that one isn't as snappy)
17:06:00 <oerjan> that's because the third rule is an optimization of the first two, obviously
17:07:32 <mib_ub9ay1> ais523: this is lost on AnMaster :)
17:08:31 * oerjan wonders where the "something something" meme comes from.
17:08:44 <AnMaster> hm?
17:08:47 <ais523> I didn't even realise it was a meme
17:09:11 <oerjan> i just used and realized i'd seen it before
17:09:15 <oerjan> *it
17:09:18 <AnMaster> hah
17:09:20 <AnMaster> right
17:09:35 <AnMaster> about the third phase
17:09:43 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, no it wasn't lost on me
17:09:46 <mib_ub9ay1> no, about all of them :P
17:10:26 <oerjan> the hits for "something something meme" seem to be uses, not explanations
17:10:37 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, none of them were lost on me, it is just that if your *goal* is as much speed as possible then you have to think about it early on.
17:10:52 <AnMaster> most C programs I write are nothing like that
17:10:57 <AnMaster> bbl
17:10:59 <mib_ub9ay1> AnMaster: I'm pretty sure the first rule covers that by telling you speed shouldn't be your goa.
17:11:00 <mib_ub9ay1> l
17:11:10 <ais523> incidentally, I have had to use all 3 before
17:11:23 <ais523> managed to speed up a program by a factor of about 10, because it was running unacceptably slow beforehand
17:11:28 <ais523> it was still annoying having to do it, though
17:11:45 <mib_ub9ay1> what lang
17:11:51 <ais523> Perl
17:11:54 <ais523> it was my new AI for TAEB
17:12:04 <mib_ub9ay1> in cases like that, before optimizing i'd rewrite as a c extension
17:12:08 <mib_ub9ay1> altho apparently that's painful with per
17:12:09 <mib_ub9ay1> l
17:12:19 <ais523> mib_ub9ay1: well, it was heavily object-oriented
17:12:19 <mib_ub9ay1> but it's easier to write simple c and have it faster than optimized perl, I'd wager
17:12:34 <ais523> it wouldn't work at all well in C without rewriting the entire program in C
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17:13:00 <mib_ub9ay1> perl has an extension api, no?
17:13:05 <ais523> yes, it does
17:13:08 <ais523> you obviously haven't seen it
17:13:12 <mib_ub9ay1> yes, I know
17:13:14 <ais523> it basically exposes the internals of Perl to C programs
17:13:14 <mib_ub9ay1> that's why I wouldn't use perl.
17:13:27 <ais523> which makes it good for different sorts of extensions from the sorts you're thinking of
17:13:47 <ais523> anyway, how would you, say, write an extension for object-oriented Python or Ruby in C?
17:14:18 <mib_ub9ay1> by using their clean, simple, well-thought-out API.
17:14:33 <ais523> the problem is that much of the slowness was in the objects I was calling
17:14:34 <Asztal> I don't think "clean" applies to Ruby's API
17:14:41 <mib_ub9ay1> Asztal: compared to XS?
17:14:43 <mib_ub9ay1> fuck yeah.
17:14:49 <mib_ub9ay1> or whatever perl call their api
17:14:53 <ais523> the bits of Perl I wrote weren't particularly slow
17:15:01 <ais523> they were calling slow things outside themselves, though
17:15:17 <ais523> such as trying to get deeply-nested properties of external objects
17:15:30 <ais523> IOW, rewriting in C would have been optimising the wrong thing
17:15:34 <mib_ub9ay1> i think taeb is a leeetle overengineered.
17:15:42 <ais523> no, it isn't
17:15:45 <ais523> it's still underengineered
17:15:48 <ais523> surprisingly
17:16:08 <oerjan> argh, "something something" seems a favorite thing to say to show the template of _other_ memes, making it impossible to search for :D
17:16:40 <mib_ub9ay1> oerjan: try tvtropes?
17:16:43 <mib_ub9ay1> i think its just an idiom.
17:17:35 <oerjan> oh good idea
17:17:43 <oerjan> well, meme, idiom, almost same thing
17:17:43 * mib_ub9ay1 cackles
17:17:46 <mib_ub9ay1> now you are trapped!
17:17:53 <oerjan> i've been there before
17:17:57 <mib_ub9ay1> i know
17:18:03 * mib_ub9ay1 = ehird
17:18:51 <mib_ub9ay1> http://code.google.com/p/brainspace/ Rule 1 of esolangs: your esolang does not need a google code project
17:19:01 <AnMaster> <mib_ub9ay1> AnMaster: I'm pretty sure the first rule covers that by telling you speed shouldn't be your goa.
17:19:01 <AnMaster> <mib_ub9ay1> l
17:19:14 <AnMaster> well, I don't overclock, but sometimes people do speed runs
17:19:20 <mib_ub9ay1> 17:19AnMaster<mib_ub9ay1> AnMaster: I'm pretty sure the first rule covers that by telling you speed shouldn't be your goa. 17:19AnMaster<mib_ub9ay1> l
17:19:21 <AnMaster> like "how much can you overclock"
17:19:28 <mib_ub9ay1> what has that got to do with anything
17:19:47 <oerjan> hmph no obvious hits there either
17:19:50 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, considering cfunge a test of "how fast can you get it as a pure interpreter"
17:20:10 <mib_ub9ay1> AnMaster: your site does not mention this.
17:20:16 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, indeed it doesn't
17:20:20 <AnMaster> why does it have to?
17:20:34 <mib_ub9ay1> because if you take its point as what the site says, your optimization is stupid
17:20:41 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, my goal is being the _fastest_ _interpreter_ out there
17:21:12 <AnMaster> as far as I know I currently beat all except jitfunge
17:21:15 <AnMaster> at befunge98
17:21:18 <oerjan> mib_ub9ay1: knowing you are ehird is simple, it's just a matter of elimination
17:21:24 <AnMaster> and last I heard jitfunge wasn't complete
17:21:53 <mib_ub9ay1> note to self: trying to talk sensibly to AnMaster is fruitless; your lines go to /dev/null.
17:22:05 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, I will update website slightly
17:22:19 <oerjan> mib_ub9ay1: an _ambitious_ esolang would have a google summer code project
17:22:33 <mib_ub9ay1> oerjan: ha
17:23:40 <mib_ub9ay1> http://serprex.staticfire.co.uk/x86/x86.htm nice.
17:23:52 <oerjan> mib_ub9ay1: actually scratch the elimination, the AnMaster comments are enough
17:24:01 <mib_ub9ay1> oerjan: <3
17:25:03 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, that is quite an useful link for debugging
17:25:24 <mib_ub9ay1> no, it's useful for writing compilers
17:25:25 <mib_ub9ay1> :p
17:25:26 * oerjan wonders if that flame knight or what it was site is still there
17:25:32 <AnMaster> up until now I used the AMD64 processor docs, which is not always easy to search in
17:25:48 <mib_ub9ay1> they're only available in pdf i believe.
17:25:51 <mib_ub9ay1> i don't believe in pdfs
17:26:01 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, they are pdf only indeed
17:26:11 <AnMaster> I have them (all 5 pdfs) on my desktop
17:26:20 <mib_ub9ay1> ALL 5! wow.
17:26:24 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, and do you mean you don't believe they exist?
17:26:29 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, all 5 huge ones
17:26:30 <AnMaster> :P
17:26:50 <mib_ub9ay1> not believing that pdfs exist would be more of an oklopol thing.
17:27:17 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, anyway they are around 450-550 pages long each
17:27:34 <oerjan> mib_ub9ay1: AnMaster: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/duelists.htm
17:27:37 <mib_ub9ay1> yeah i think I just fell asleep
17:27:44 * mib_ub9ay1 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
17:27:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, heh, *reads text*
17:28:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, the text doesn't explain what the site is hm
17:28:28 <AnMaster> is this related to some online game?
17:28:31 <oerjan> click home
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17:28:38 <oerjan> no
17:28:38 -!- Slereah has joined.
17:28:52 <AnMaster> there is no link home there
17:28:59 <oerjan> it's a funny list of stereotypes
17:29:02 <oerjan> sure there is
17:29:06 <AnMaster> and my home icon takes me to gentoo.org
17:29:30 <oerjan> hm wait maybe it's framed
17:29:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, there is no home indeed, and there is no frame
17:29:50 <mib_ub9ay1> AnMaster's homepage is gentoo.org?
17:29:56 * AnMaster tries in another web browser
17:29:58 <mib_ub9ay1> gee I like seeing the gentoo site every time I open a browser too.
17:30:00 <mib_ub9ay1> AnMaster: he mean
17:30:00 <mib_ub9ay1> s
17:30:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, ok there is a home when using firefox 3
17:30:03 <mib_ub9ay1> he's probably linked to a page
17:30:04 <oerjan> hm no works here
17:30:05 <mib_ub9ay1> that was in a frame
17:30:33 <oerjan> indeed, but that seems not to have been the problem
17:30:52 <mib_ub9ay1> doesn't even load for me.
17:31:21 <oerjan> main page is http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/index.htm
17:32:49 <oerjan> anyway that site should have pigeon holes enough for all of us :D
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17:33:50 -!- Judofyr has joined.
17:34:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, what would you be then?
17:34:43 * oerjan doesn't recall, it's been years since he visited
17:34:45 <mib_ub9ay1> I'm guessing a giraffe.
17:34:53 <oerjan> i just remembered the duelists
17:34:58 <oerjan> there's a giraffe?
17:35:02 <mib_ub9ay1> clearly.
17:35:05 <mib_ub9ay1> there always is.
17:35:51 <oerjan> mib_ub9ay1: you might think http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm fits AnMaster better ;D
17:37:46 <Slereah> anus.htm :o
17:37:53 <AnMaster> Slereah, haha
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17:38:08 <mib_ub9ay1> Slereah brings out the asshole in us all
17:38:12 <mib_ub9ay1> instantrimshot.com
17:38:16 <oerjan> of course i am an Eagle Scout *cough*
17:38:28 <oerjan> and i'm not even sure if that's ironic
17:38:41 <mib_ub9ay1> your mom is ironic
17:38:42 <Slereah> It's ironic if you're an eagle
17:38:43 <mib_ub9ay1> haha snap
17:40:21 <mib_ub9ay1> who loves SPACE
17:40:23 <oklopol> V v move down \n v move down
17:41:46 <oklopol> mib_ub9ay1: at least i agree brainspace doesn't deserve a google code project
17:42:30 <oklopol> i mean i drop more inspired languages in the toilet
17:43:10 <ais523> which one is brainspace, again?
17:43:28 * oerjan should try the Blowhard more often
17:43:35 <oklopol> mib_ub9ay1 linked it a few lines ago
17:43:43 <oklopol> i haven't seen it before
17:44:46 <ais523> ah, Yet Another cross between BF and Befunge
17:45:45 <oklopol> well. i think so. although i can't really see how to do computation in it
17:46:22 <ais523> can't BF trivially be compiled into it?
17:46:26 <ais523> or is it missing one of the instructions?
17:46:36 <mib_ub9ay1> its on the esowiki
17:46:48 <ais523> it seems LEPM + Befunge-style looping is enough for TCness
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17:49:36 <mib_ub9ay1> hm
18:01:20 -!- Judofyr has quit.
18:03:34 <mib_ub9ay1> AnMaster: http://linux.softpedia.com/get/Programming/Interpreters/cfunge-37128.shtml
18:03:40 <mib_ub9ay1> lol
18:04:33 <ais523> did AnMaster write that?
18:04:37 <ais523> or is it a copy from his site?
18:04:43 <mib_ub9ay1> softpedia just spider shit.
18:05:07 <mib_ub9ay1> User Rating: Rated by:Fair (2.2/5) 18 user(s)
18:05:08 <mib_ub9ay1> yeah rihgt
18:05:53 <mib_ub9ay1> AnMaster: http://www.dreamincode.net/forums/showtopic69841.htm
18:05:55 <mib_ub9ay1> INDUSTRY NEWS
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18:12:09 <AnMaster> <ais523> or is it a copy from his site? <-- I didn't
18:13:04 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, that text is familiar, I wrote it as release notes for freshmeat.net iirc
18:13:05 <AnMaster> :P
18:13:14 <AnMaster> and yes I have seen sites like that before
18:13:18 <AnMaster> makes me think "wtf"
18:13:48 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, and yes I agree it is totally silly
18:13:50 <AnMaster> those sites
18:14:52 <mib_ub9ay1> AnMaster: they get money from ad revenue
18:15:04 <mib_ub9ay1> not silly if you're making big bux off it.
18:15:08 <AnMaster> hm
18:15:15 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, why would anyone use them?
18:15:26 <mib_ub9ay1> AnMaster: why wouldn't they?
18:15:32 <mib_ub9ay1> From a regular perspective, what sends off alarm bells?
18:15:38 <mib_ub9ay1> It has information and download links.
18:15:44 <mib_ub9ay1> They find it once, and keep going there, because they use it.
18:17:01 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, hm, at least freshmeat kind of makes sense
18:17:38 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, however I should probably report them for copyright violation of release notes, since I could say they are under GFDL or something
18:17:46 <ais523> AnMaster: /are/ they under GFDL?
18:17:47 <oklopol> ais523: i don't see how to make a loop
18:17:54 <ais523> if you didn't licence them at all, you could try to report them for copyvio
18:17:55 <AnMaster> ais523, no, but maybe for next release?
18:17:57 <ais523> oklopol: Befunge-style, using ?
18:18:09 <ais523> AnMaster: are they under any licence at all?
18:18:14 <oklopol> ? just reflects
18:18:15 <AnMaster> ais523, nop
18:18:18 <oklopol> and all turns are deterministic
18:18:20 <mib_ub9ay1> AnMaster: who gives a shit
18:18:23 <ais523> if so, then it'll rather depend on which country you're in
18:18:26 <mib_ub9ay1> what harm is it doing?
18:18:35 <oklopol> meaning there's just one path you can't deviate from
18:18:36 <AnMaster> ais523, but probably since it was posted on freshmeat it is covered by their EULA
18:18:42 <AnMaster> so I'll need to check that
18:18:45 -!- Ilari_ has changed nick to Ilari.
18:18:45 <ais523> mib_ub9ay1: using AnMaster's hard-earned release notes to give themselves ad revenue?
18:18:57 <mib_ub9ay1> ais523: I was talking about softpedia.
18:18:58 <ais523> oklopol: are turns reversible too?
18:19:08 <ais523> mib_ub9ay1: it's cluttering Google results
18:19:12 <mib_ub9ay1> dreamincode isn't just an aggregation-spam site, they just seem to have an aggregated news section.
18:19:17 <oklopol> ais523: well no, i guess they're not
18:19:18 <mib_ub9ay1> Additionally, they link to their source.
18:19:28 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, true that is one useful thing
18:19:33 <mib_ub9ay1> ais523: That just means your google results aren't good enough.
18:19:39 <oklopol> still i can't see it. probably would if there is a way, if i tried
18:19:44 <mib_ub9ay1> If there was better content, the aggregations would be way at the end.
18:19:50 <oklopol> but i'm hoping someone will just explain it to me, because i'm so goddamn tired
18:20:13 <ais523> mib_ub9ay1: still, maybe AnMaster doesn't want his effort used by other companies to increase their search results
18:20:36 <AnMaster> well I'll let the issue rest for no
18:20:37 <AnMaster> now*
18:20:50 <mib_ub9ay1> ais523: I was talking about softpedia.
18:20:51 <oklopol> because i think the fact turns aren't reversible just means the path can't be traversed backwards except until the first forced turn comes (and not a mirror)
18:21:02 <mib_ub9ay1> I highly doubt dreamincode.net are doing it for their search reviews; they're a legit site, a very old one though.
18:21:09 <oklopol> http://code.google.com/p/brainspace/ for reference, if someone feels like explaining
18:21:14 <mib_ub9ay1> ASsuming it's the dreamincode I was thinking about.
18:21:16 <oklopol> i still think it's broken
18:21:18 <mib_ub9ay1> The page only loads in google's cache.
18:21:19 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, what is dreamincode doing it for?
18:21:31 <mib_ub9ay1> AnMaster: er, to provide an aggregation of news?
18:21:39 <mib_ub9ay1> Admittedly not very well, i doubt many of their users care about cfunge.
18:21:50 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, "industry news from the esoteric language area"?
18:21:54 <AnMaster> it is hilarious
18:22:00 <ais523> oklopol: it's the * command
18:22:12 <ais523> that's a conditional skip, isn't it?
18:22:13 <ais523> I think
18:22:22 <ais523> and it can skip a direction-change command to get a conditional branch
18:22:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, is http://code.google.com/p/brainspace/ your project?
18:23:03 <mib_ub9ay1> uhhh
18:23:03 <mib_ub9ay1> no?
18:23:06 <AnMaster> ah
18:23:15 <AnMaster> who is the dev? Someone in this channel?
18:23:20 <mib_ub9ay1> err, no?
18:23:23 <mib_ub9ay1> wtf are you talking about
18:23:24 <AnMaster> ah ok
18:23:27 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, was wondering
18:23:36 <AnMaster> and what do you mean
18:23:37 <ais523> mib_ub9ay1: AnMaster's trying to figure out whose BrainSpace is
18:23:42 <AnMaster> ais523, exactly!
18:23:46 <mib_ub9ay1> look on the esowiki?
18:23:48 <mib_ub9ay1> some random idiot
18:23:51 <AnMaster> hm
18:23:52 <mib_ub9ay1> like all crap esolangs
18:23:53 <ais523> SpaceMan++ according to the esowiki history
18:23:58 <AnMaster> anyway this sounds familiar
18:24:00 <AnMaster> the model
18:24:05 <AnMaster> from some other language
18:24:12 <AnMaster> the \ / mirror thing
18:24:13 <mib_ub9ay1> uh
18:24:14 <mib_ub9ay1> befunge?
18:24:24 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, no that doesn't have /\ mirrors
18:24:43 <oerjan> AnMaster: backflip?
18:24:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, *looks on esowiki*
18:25:03 <AnMaster> ah yes indeed
18:25:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes that was it
18:25:24 <AnMaster> heh it says ais523 created it
18:25:33 <ais523> I created BackFlip, yes
18:25:38 <ais523> but in BackFlip, the mirrors use
18:25:44 <ais523> neither of the commands were my idea, by the way
18:25:51 <ais523> I got them from a post on esoteric.sange.fi
18:26:10 <ais523> but they were in quite a different context, someone was trying to figure out how to do subroutines in a Befunge-like language
18:27:12 <mib_ub9ay1> is there an animated backflip interp? :P
18:27:35 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, sounds like a fun idea
18:27:37 <AnMaster> make one!
18:27:43 <AnMaster> with sound effects!
18:32:07 <mib_ub9ay1> AnMaster: PEW! PEW!
18:32:07 <mib_ub9ay1> DOINK
18:32:12 <mib_ub9ay1> *CRASH*
18:32:24 <AnMaster> mib_ub9ay1, :D
18:45:44 <ais523> http://code.google.com/p/brainspace/wiki/LinkingToBS1LibraryInJava
18:47:09 <mib_ub9ay1> ais523: ...
18:47:19 * mib_ub9ay1 vomits
18:47:27 * mib_ub9ay1 eats the vomit
18:47:27 -!- Hiato has joined.
18:47:28 * mib_ub9ay1 vomits
18:47:32 <mib_ub9ay1> ^ MY APPROXIMATE FEELINGS.
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19:08:21 <oklopol> AnMaster: brainspace isn't really my type.
19:09:00 <oklopol> ais523: oh. i missed that.
19:10:19 <oerjan> oklopol is a bear of very little brain
19:10:42 <oerjan> needs nearly no space
19:10:45 <oklopol> that's the problem with me reading things, i always miss the one crucial line.
19:14:32 <oklopol> oerjan: bear?
19:14:37 <oklopol> i don't have bear powers
19:18:10 <oerjan> *whoosh*
19:18:25 <mib_ub9ay1> can i have bear powers?
19:18:32 <oerjan> maybe
19:18:39 <oklopol> oerjan: my point exactly
19:19:55 <oerjan> however, loving milk and honey is a prerequisite.
19:20:31 <mib_ub9ay1> sigh.
19:20:32 <mib_ub9ay1> albinoblacksheep.com/flash/bearhello
19:20:35 <mib_ub9ay1> http://albinoblacksheep.com/flash/bearhello
19:20:54 <oklopol> o
19:20:56 <oklopol> o
19:21:18 <oklopol> i guess that's fun a hundredth time
19:21:20 * oklopol watches
19:21:26 <mib_ub9ay1> o
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19:32:07 <oklopol> "interpeter"
19:32:31 <oklopol> i'm gonna change my name to that
19:33:53 <oerjan> Pope Interpeter I
19:35:04 <oklopol> what's Mozilla Public License 1.1
19:35:29 <mib_ub9ay1> a shit license.
19:35:37 <oklopol> license to shit
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20:58:07 <mib_5koloe> AnMaster: can you implement MKRY already?
20:58:28 <AnMaster> mib_5koloe, no
20:58:32 <mib_5koloe> why not
20:58:34 <AnMaster> but should be easy for you to do
20:58:41 <mib_5koloe> like I'm touching that source
20:58:45 <AnMaster> mib_5koloe, it adds nothing of value IMO
20:58:53 <AnMaster> mib_5koloe, you could implement it for rc/funge then
20:58:58 <AnMaster> that would be funny
20:59:00 <mib_5koloe> AnMaster: i'd stop complaining about cfunge.
20:59:18 <AnMaster> mib_5koloe, though that sounds nice: no
20:59:22 <AnMaster> still
20:59:27 <AnMaster> implement it for rc/funge
20:59:33 <mib_5koloe> yeah I think this accurately depicts why I dislike cfunge.
20:59:33 <AnMaster> you won't complain about cfunge then
20:59:40 <AnMaster> :P
20:59:45 <oerjan> it's a far MKRY from implementation...
20:59:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, :D
21:00:13 <AnMaster> that one was truly good/awful/aweful all in one
21:00:20 <AnMaster> and yes that wasn't a typo
21:00:51 <oklopol> really, you didn't write awful twice and type the other one?
21:00:54 <oerjan> the actual word is "awesome"
21:01:10 <oklopol> *typo
21:01:24 <oklopol> ^ see, i wrote "typo" twice, typoed the first one
21:01:30 <oklopol> it's common
21:02:00 <oklopol> oerjan: did you know your nick backwards is najreo?
21:02:17 <oerjan> i had vaguely suspected it
21:02:19 <oklopol> i mean... that doesn't even mean anything
21:02:50 <oerjan> someone once told me my name forward means slave in finnish
21:02:52 <ais523> whereas oko nicks spelt backwards just look like more oko nicks
21:02:56 <oklopol> how about reversing your nick so it means something backwards?
21:03:02 <ais523> lopolko for instance
21:03:35 <oklopol> olopolo
21:03:45 <oklopol> that would be a cool nick
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21:04:46 <oklopol> hmm.
21:04:54 <oklopol> trying to translate olopolo is a bit hard
21:05:29 <oklopol> i mean "Xpolo" is usually translated "poor X"
21:06:07 <oklopol> but "olo" means something like "being", but not about a person, more like the act of being
21:06:19 <oklopol> poor act of being
21:06:23 -!- oklopol has changed nick to olopolo.
21:06:29 <olopolo> o
21:06:35 <oerjan> a poor existence
21:06:39 <olopolo> hmm. feels pretty nice
21:06:42 <olopolo> hmm
21:06:46 <olopolo> yeah that's good
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21:13:48 <AnMaster> <oerjan> the actual word is "awesome" <-- I know
21:13:52 <AnMaster> but that was the point
21:14:19 <AnMaster> awsome and aweful
21:15:39 <AnMaster> olopolo, Hm does Finnish have a lot of hard to translate meanings?
21:15:45 <AnMaster> what I would call nyanser in Swedish
21:15:53 <AnMaster> don't know the English word for it
21:16:00 <mib_5koloe> nyanser is nyanser
21:16:02 <mib_5koloe> how hilarious
21:16:10 <AnMaster> mib_5koloe, does it mean the same?
21:16:19 <mib_5koloe> i meant
21:16:23 <mib_5koloe> nyanser is an example of nyanser
21:16:23 <mib_5koloe> :P
21:16:30 <AnMaster> mib_5koloe, no it isn't
21:16:37 <AnMaster> I just don't remember the word
21:16:37 <oerjan> "nuances"
21:16:42 <mib_5koloe> AnMaster: well, it's hard to translate the meaning into English
21:16:43 <AnMaster> I know I have read the English one
21:16:43 <mib_5koloe> seems to fit :P
21:16:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, err no
21:16:56 <oerjan> not?
21:17:01 <mib_5koloe> oerjan: surely not
21:17:24 <AnMaster> mib_5koloe, nyans when used about colours is "shade"
21:17:32 <AnMaster> not sure when used about meanings of words
21:17:43 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
21:17:43 <AnMaster> in Swedish it can be used for both
21:17:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, what?
21:17:52 <mib_5koloe> o.O
21:18:19 <AnMaster> oh wait
21:18:23 <AnMaster> Definitions of nuance on the Web:
21:18:23 <AnMaster> * a subtle difference in meaning or opinion or attitude; "without understanding the finer nuances you can't enjoy the humor"; "don't argue about ...
21:18:23 <AnMaster> wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
21:18:26 <AnMaster> huh
21:18:36 <AnMaster> I thought "nuance" was "irritating"
21:18:43 <oerjan> HOW DARE YOU NOT BELIEVE ME
21:18:46 <mib_5koloe> that's annoyance, AnMaster
21:18:50 <mib_5koloe> or err
21:18:52 <mib_5koloe> how do you spell it
21:18:54 <mib_5koloe> niusance
21:18:57 <AnMaster> mib_5koloe, yes, but isn't there one without "a"
21:18:58 <AnMaster> ah yes
21:19:01 <oerjan> "nuisance"*
21:19:03 <AnMaster> nuisance
21:19:06 <mib_5koloe> ah, thanks
21:19:06 <mib_5koloe> :P
21:19:07 <olopolo> mib_5koloe's joke works, misunderstanding something and basing a joke on it is okay as long as it's clear what was misunderstood
21:19:13 <mib_5koloe> what
21:19:13 <oerjan> where did that * come from
21:19:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, from outer space
21:19:40 <mib_5koloe> i always rely on non-native speakers to correct my spelling and grammar
21:19:42 <mib_5koloe> :D
21:19:43 <AnMaster> or if you don't believe the crop circle experts, from your keyboard
21:19:50 <oerjan> AYEE
21:19:57 <AnMaster> mib_5koloe, heh
21:20:05 <mib_5koloe> they approach english as more of a dark magic than a regular language
21:20:11 <mib_5koloe> so generally they're pretty good at spotting tiny things :P
21:20:13 <AnMaster> mib_5koloe, what client do you use? Mine has a spell checker built in
21:20:14 <olopolo> how can you think it's niusance if you know how to pronounce it
21:20:24 <AnMaster> while it doesn't always help, it does help a lot of the times
21:20:29 <mib_5koloe> olopolo: i don't
21:20:32 * oerjan develops a space disease and his skin turns purple with orange spots
21:20:33 <mib_5koloe> :P
21:20:37 <mib_5koloe> well didn't
21:20:43 <mib_5koloe> AnMaster: all OS X textfields do
21:20:44 <olopolo> i could understand newsans or noozonge, but not niusance
21:20:51 <mib_5koloe> but it's a pain to right click and choose an alternative.
21:20:54 <mib_5koloe> also, doesn't do grammar.
21:20:58 <mib_5koloe> also, the suggestions sometimes suck
21:21:04 <mib_5koloe> e.g. I doubt it could correct niusance
21:21:07 <mib_5koloe> well
21:21:08 <mib_5koloe> prolly could
21:21:10 <mib_5koloe> but not other ones
21:21:13 <olopolo> (even narlum, for the american pronunciation)
21:21:13 <AnMaster> mib_5koloe, well, mine does English as I type. However it think "doesn't" is badly spelled
21:21:20 <AnMaster> it thinks ' is a word delimiter
21:21:24 <AnMaster> which is quite odd
21:22:11 <AnMaster> olopolo, i don't know how to pronounce "nuisance"
21:22:22 <ais523> it's like new-sance
21:22:25 <AnMaster> ALSO! Where is the damn mobile phone
21:22:30 <ais523> with a soft c
21:22:34 <mib_5koloe> AnMaster: call it and find out.
21:22:45 <ais523> and silent e, ce is sort of lilke a way to say a soft c
21:22:46 <olopolo> i pronounce it roughly like new-sense
21:22:54 <olopolo> hmm yeah sance is better
21:22:57 <mib_5koloe> i pronounce it like gNewSense
21:22:58 <AnMaster> mib_5koloe, not possible, the battery was dead last night
21:23:03 <ais523> olopolo: I think it differs by dialect
21:23:04 <mib_5koloe> for I am Richard M Stallman
21:23:05 <AnMaster> and I don't remember where I put it
21:23:24 <ais523> mib_5koloe: the second e in that is stronger than the corresponding vowel in nuisance, which is more neutral
21:23:37 <mib_5koloe> gNewSense is a linux distro
21:23:47 <AnMaster> ok I found it... But such a strange place...
21:23:49 <mib_5koloe> it sucks and rms loves it because it is committed to being useless by only containing 100% free software.
21:23:53 <AnMaster> probably won't tell you
21:23:57 <AnMaster> too strange
21:24:02 <mib_5koloe> AnMaster: THE TOILET?!!!!!!!!11111111111
21:24:05 <mib_5koloe> 11
21:24:06 <mib_5koloe> 1
21:24:11 <AnMaster> mib_5koloe, pyjamas pocket...
21:24:20 <mib_5koloe> Same thing, rite.
21:24:27 <AnMaster> mib_5koloe, about as strange yes
21:24:32 <AnMaster> but not same
21:24:41 <AnMaster> since I store the pyjamas elsewhere
21:24:48 <olopolo> i think he's asking whether you have a habit of taking a shit in your pyjamas pocket.
21:24:56 <mib_5koloe> ...
21:24:57 <AnMaster> olopolo, no.
21:24:59 <mib_5koloe> XD
21:25:03 <AnMaster> I don't think so
21:25:03 <olopolo> :D
21:25:17 <AnMaster> mib_5koloe, s/X/XKC/
21:25:20 <olopolo> well that wouldn't be like you really
21:25:26 <olopolo> i mean even i don't do that
21:25:31 <mib_5koloe> i do...
21:25:32 <mib_5koloe> ...
21:25:33 <mib_5koloe> ..
21:25:35 <mib_5koloe> ...
21:25:36 <olopolo> lol why am i on irc.
21:25:37 <olopolo> ->
21:25:38 <mib_5koloe> ...n't
21:25:44 <AnMaster> haha
21:26:20 <oerjan> th-th-that's some st-st-st-speech impediment
21:27:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, nah, just high latency link between brain and the thingy you make sound with
21:27:27 <AnMaster> gah, what is the word in English
21:27:29 <mib_5koloe> you mean
21:27:32 <mib_5koloe> a speech impediment.
21:27:34 <mib_5koloe> also, mouth.
21:27:44 <AnMaster> mib_5koloe, no the other part
21:27:48 <AnMaster> in the throat
21:27:51 <mib_5koloe> ass?
21:27:53 <mib_5koloe> oh.
21:27:54 <mib_5koloe> :P
21:27:55 <AnMaster> NO!
21:27:57 <mib_5koloe> voicebox?
21:28:03 <olopolo> vocal chords?
21:28:10 <mib_5koloe> ass?
21:28:12 <AnMaster> wikipedia claims it is "vocal folds"
21:28:24 <AnMaster> "The vocal folds, also known commonly as vocal cords..."
21:28:30 <olopolo> what's that thing hanging from the top of the mouth, in english
21:28:32 <oerjan> do we have a vocal disagreement?
21:28:35 <olopolo> it has some fun name
21:28:41 <mib_5koloe> uvula
21:28:44 <olopolo> ah
21:28:49 <mib_5koloe> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uvula_piercing
21:28:50 <mib_5koloe> XD
21:28:55 <olopolo> heh
21:29:09 <olopolo> not at all pointless
21:30:41 <olopolo> "but it may make it very difficult to perform" <<< lol didn't realize at first this was about the piercing operation
21:31:02 <olopolo> "a uvula piercing might make it difficult to perform... so you'll need to take it off when you perform"
21:31:09 <olopolo> "if you know what i mean... wink wink"
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21:31:24 <mib_5koloe> XD
21:31:29 <olopolo> "now remove your skirt and call me a doctor"
21:31:32 <olopolo> CODE.
21:31:34 <olopolo> SERIOUSLY.
21:31:35 <olopolo> ->
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21:34:14 <mib_5koloe> i wonder what the longest conversation ever was.
21:35:07 <olopolo> between two people?
21:35:30 <mib_5koloe> yeah, I guess
21:35:38 <olopolo> seven years
21:37:10 <Slereah> Define "conversation"
21:39:33 <mib_5koloe> continuous talking about a subject.
21:39:46 <Slereah> Completely continuous?
21:39:55 <mib_5koloe> no.
21:39:59 <Slereah> No sleep or eating?
21:40:17 <mib_5koloe> eating yes sleeping no.
21:40:52 <Slereah> Then it can't be longer than ten days, since it's the record for not sleeping!
21:41:05 <Slereah> And really, I assume shorter than two days, too.
21:41:09 <olopolo> hmm.
21:41:15 <olopolo> Slereah: u sure about that?
21:41:26 <mib_5koloe> olopolo: "u"?
21:41:28 <Slereah> No.
21:41:28 <mib_5koloe> :O
21:41:33 <Slereah> That's why I said assume
21:41:49 <olopolo> i mean i've heard stories about people who've stopped sleeping completely after a disease
21:42:01 <olopolo> mib_5koloe: whooooops typo.
21:42:04 <Slereah> Are t
21:42:07 <Slereah> hey dead?
21:42:08 <olopolo> i actually meant "you"
21:42:21 <Slereah> Also, "heard stories" is not very convincing.
21:42:25 <olopolo> :P
21:42:35 <Slereah> I heard stories about molemen.
21:42:40 <mib_5koloe> a guy hasn't slept for like 40 years
21:42:43 <mib_5koloe> it was on bbc news
21:42:46 <mib_5koloe> he was a farmer guy type.
21:42:56 <Slereah> Be more precise.
21:43:04 <mib_5koloe> can't sry
21:43:14 <Slereah> Let's try wikipedia!
21:44:01 <olopolo> i wish i could stop sleeping
21:44:24 <Slereah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation#Longest_period_without_sleep
21:44:27 <olopolo> i mean, involuntary sleeping at least
21:45:30 <olopolo> On May 25, 2007 the BBC reported that Tony Wright beat the Guinness World Record by staying awake for 11 days and nights.[42] The Guinness Book of Records has, however, withdrawn its backing of a sleep deprivation class because of the associated health risks.
21:45:34 <olopolo> that's so retarded
21:45:41 <olopolo> i mean the latter
21:46:13 <Slereah> So I guess that if the guy who didn't sleep for 33 years talked with the guy who didn't sleep in 20 years
21:46:18 <Slereah> That's a max of 20 years.
21:48:06 <olopolo> lol, i could do that standing on my head
21:48:24 <Slereah> Do it.
21:48:30 <Slereah> Standing on your head.
21:49:23 <psygnisfive> olopolo is palindrome.
21:49:41 <Slereah> But it is not symetrical, though.
21:49:47 <Slereah> The p ruins the symmetry.
21:49:58 <psygnisfive> its not visually similar, this is true
21:50:09 <psygnisfive> but it is character-wise symmetric, hence palindromic
21:50:18 <Slereah> I know.
21:50:52 <psygnisfive> oloqolo
21:50:54 <olopolo> psygnisfive: orly
21:51:05 <psygnisfive> actually i prefer anal but if you insist
21:51:15 <olopolo> how do you do that upside down p??
21:51:27 <psygnisfive> its in unicode
21:51:36 <Slereah> q isn't upside down p.
21:51:37 <psygnisfive> under 'flipped characters"
21:51:40 <psygnisfive> olobolo
21:51:48 <oerjan> b
21:51:58 <Slereah> qpdb
21:52:14 <olopolo> Slereah: yes it is, it's just also reversed
21:52:19 <olopolo> wait.
21:52:21 <olopolo> no it's not
21:52:24 <olopolo> ...
21:52:27 <olopolo> fuck you all ->
21:52:31 <Slereah> :D
21:52:40 <psygnisfive> olodolo
21:52:41 <Slereah> Yay, fucking :D
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22:35:42 <psygnisfive> GUYS
22:35:44 <psygnisfive> holy FUCK
22:35:49 <psygnisfive> internet mystery!
22:35:54 <Slereah> Al Gore?
22:36:01 <psygnisfive> no no
22:36:03 <psygnisfive> *coho
22:41:10 <psygnisfive> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TheGreatHatsby
22:47:05 <oerjan> psygnisfive: seems a bit fishy to me
22:47:54 <Slereah> *hatty
22:48:43 <oerjan> no, look at the end
22:52:47 <oerjan> fungot: what do you think of these conversation bots?
22:52:47 <fungot> oerjan: at the
22:53:04 <mib_ty3fkd> ah, the great hatsby bots
22:53:08 <mib_ty3fkd> they're neat
22:53:13 <mib_ty3fkd> they're called salmonbots nowadays
22:53:39 <mib_ty3fkd> apparently the coders occasionally keep in touch with the people who like them and stuff.
22:53:43 <mib_ty3fkd> so not much of a mystery
22:55:11 <mib_ty3fkd> http://project-upstream.awardspace.com/
22:55:13 <mib_ty3fkd> request interface
22:56:00 <mib_ty3fkd> Your connection request has been received, and may be filled at our convenience. Please note that while Project Upstream cares deeply about the Internet community's satisfaction, we can not be held responsible for delayed or overlooked connection requests.
22:58:37 <mib_ty3fkd> http://community.livejournal.com/themissinghat/405326.html geez, look at the freaking whiners
23:23:24 <Mony> 'night
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23:24:55 <psygnisfive> guys
23:25:09 <psygnisfive> namely, oerjan, oklopol, ehird
23:25:12 <psygnisfive> i have an idea
23:25:33 <mib_ty3fkd> wat
23:25:39 <oerjan> angkor
23:27:56 <psygnisfive> oerjan :D
23:28:02 <psygnisfive> im glad you've started doing that too
23:28:14 <psygnisfive> tho i think angkor thom is cooler than angkor wat
23:28:15 <psygnisfive> anyway
23:28:22 <psygnisfive> i say we start an internet mystert
23:28:23 <psygnisfive> mystery*
23:28:34 <oerjan> you mean others do it too?
23:28:40 <psygnisfive> i do!
23:28:45 <psygnisfive> ive been doing it for YEARS
23:28:59 <psygnisfive> oh oerjan, i love you!
23:29:09 * psygnisfive runs towards oerjan in slow motion, arms extended for embrace
23:29:10 <oerjan> i may have picked it up subconsciously then
23:29:16 <psygnisfive> :)
23:29:26 <psygnisfive> anyone read Pattern Recognition?
23:30:07 <mib_ty3fkd> i tried to start an ARG once
23:30:07 <mib_ty3fkd> failed
23:30:18 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARG
23:30:58 <psygnisfive> man forget ARGs
23:31:04 <psygnisfive> ARGs are too .. gamey
23:31:07 <psygnisfive> i dont want to start an ARG
23:31:09 <mib_ty3fkd> ARGs are fun as hell.
23:31:13 <psygnisfive> i want to start a genuine mystery
23:31:24 <mib_ty3fkd> psygnisfive: then what the fuck are you doing talking about it on a public IRC channel?
23:31:35 <psygnisfive> as if people read this shit :P
23:31:43 <oerjan> mib_ty3fkd: that is the mystery
23:31:44 <mib_ty3fkd> psygnisfive: google reads us.
23:31:51 <psygnisfive> lies
23:31:52 <mib_ty3fkd> oerjan: lol
23:32:39 <oerjan> i've never been able to google the logs reliably
23:32:56 <mib_ty3fkd> http://gitorious.org/projects/astral-messenger/repos/mainline/blobs/master/amsg.pl Slowest messaging service ever
23:33:24 <psygnisfive> oerjan!
23:33:25 <psygnisfive> PM!
23:33:56 <mib_ty3fkd> psygnisfive: please don't notify about PMs in public... it's irritating
23:34:05 <psygnisfive> shut up |
23:34:10 <psygnisfive> :|
23:34:10 <mib_ty3fkd> no.
23:34:17 <psygnisfive> well too bad
23:34:20 <psygnisfive> i will notify all i want!
23:34:22 <oerjan> AM here
23:34:40 <mib_ty3fkd> psygnisfive: please, others have expressed annoyance at people doing it too..
23:34:44 <psygnisfive> read your pms, bitch
23:34:57 <mib_ty3fkd> /sig
23:34:57 <mib_ty3fkd> h
23:35:02 <oerjan> i don't have pms
23:35:09 <psygnisfive> i PMed you >O
23:35:24 <mib_ty3fkd> it's called /msg.
23:35:36 <psygnisfive> i know this, dumbass.
23:35:53 <mib_ty3fkd> i can call people dumbasses too.
23:36:09 <psygnisfive> i know you can
23:36:23 <ais523> mib_ty3fkd: you can also be incorrect in doing so
23:36:55 <psygnisfive> who is mib_ty3fkd anywho
23:36:59 <mib_ty3fkd> ehird.
23:37:37 <psygnisfive> that explains it
23:37:40 <mib_ty3fkd> ais523: http://gitorious.org/projects/astral-messenger/repos/mainline/blobs/master/amsg.pl read and laugh
23:41:20 <ais523> it just randomly hashes things until it finds the original
23:41:54 <mib_ty3fkd> ais523: ywp
23:41:54 <mib_ty3fkd> *yep
23:41:56 <mib_ty3fkd> that's the joke.
23:43:44 <mib_ty3fkd> I would like to make a block-based, append-only, hash-identifier, distributed filesystem sometime.
23:43:45 <mib_ty3fkd> That'd be fun.
23:44:22 <mib_ty3fkd> kind of like a bittorrent filesystem
23:44:30 <mib_ty3fkd> with universal lookup
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2008-12-29
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01:12:46 <AnMaster> did my client part there or not?
01:13:04 * AnMaster is testing a script to prevent mis-part of channels
01:13:08 <Asztal> nope
01:13:11 <ais523> no, it didn't
01:13:11 <AnMaster> yay!
01:13:19 <AnMaster> it works then
01:13:28 <AnMaster> I made my bnc prevent part of this channel
01:15:19 <Asztal> which one of you has the slicehost server? (i.e. I currently have a blank referral code box)
01:15:27 <ais523> ehird does
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02:29:42 <olopolo> a secret fly that i know best / to keep a moment shake a bean
02:32:29 <olopolo> read a paper that is dust / to close my followers a sun of farm
02:33:10 <psygnisfive> olopolo: what
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02:43:18 <olopolo> psygnisfive: can't really muster the sanity to answer with an answer
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05:19:51 <Slereah> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20081227.gif
05:19:52 <Slereah> :D
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06:21:33 <GregorR> These cheapbooks.com commercials make me want to overpay of books.
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12:27:08 <Mony> hihi
12:28:35 <Badger> hoho
12:28:52 <Slereah> huhu
12:28:58 <Mony> haha
12:30:59 <Slereah> hehe
12:31:27 <Badger> combo breaker etc.
12:31:45 <Slereah> Stop badgering me.
12:32:01 * Badger badgers Slereah
12:32:46 <Slereah> Go badger some mushrooms.
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13:37:08 <mib_8myp3f> lol wat, n. "Further, why is Hindley-Milner is better than (say) Java? "
13:37:12 <olopolo> o
13:37:22 <olopolo> hindley-milner
13:37:41 <olopolo> oh that
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15:39:27 <mib_8myp3f> .
16:32:37 <mib_8myp3f> "Hi Vic, If you learn Computer Science you know that it's possible to fake an ip-address."
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18:01:38 <olopolo> yeah that's pretty basic algorithmics
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18:34:38 <ehird> Yo peeps.
18:34:46 <ehird> I gots myself a new bouncer aye.
18:34:53 <ehird> Feels good.
18:35:39 <ehird> I see you're all very excited.
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18:49:47 <Asztal> actually, I am interested, since I'll be looking for bouncers soon
18:49:59 <ehird> Asztal: I am using http://miau.sourceforge.net/.
18:50:11 <Asztal> also, feel free to give me a slicehost referral code
18:50:19 <ehird> ha, sure
18:50:20 <ehird> let me find it
18:52:40 <ehird> but, miau is nice
18:52:50 <ehird> it does auto log replay unlike ezbounce
18:52:54 <ehird> it isn't bloated like ZNC
18:52:59 <ehird> and, uh, anything is better than psybnc
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19:01:04 <ehird> hey, Asztal, want to spam after I say "now" for 5 seconds so I can check the logging works? :P
19:04:01 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:04:22 <ehird> or you oerjan?
19:04:34 <oerjan> et tu ehird
19:04:47 <ehird> just spam after I say spam.
19:04:49 <ehird> for like five seconds.
19:04:50 <ehird> spam
19:05:15 <oerjan> it would be nice to let me read the log so i could know what this is about first
19:05:53 <oerjan> <mib_8myp3f> lol wat, n. "Further, why is Hindley-Milner is better than (say) Java? "
19:06:44 <oerjan> BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE TO RIGHT ALL THE FUCKING public static int[] gnarl gipple gorf types ALL THE TIME
19:06:49 <oerjan> *WRITE
19:06:55 <oerjan> DAMN YOU, MUPHRY
19:07:51 <ehird> I don't like those timestamps
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19:15:37 <olopolo> oerjan: it's actually written "write"
19:15:48 <olopolo> oh
19:15:52 <olopolo> you fixed that already
19:15:57 <olopolo> i'm terribly sorry.
19:16:09 <oerjan> YOU _WILL_ BE SORRY
19:26:04 -!- ehird has joined.
19:26:57 <ehird> hey hey
19:26:57 <ehird> guys
19:26:59 <ehird> say something in 3
19:27:00 <ehird> 2
19:27:16 <ehird> 1
19:27:18 <ehird> now
19:27:29 <fizzie> Too late!
19:27:57 <ehird> bah, fizzie, put fungot in a bot loop will you
19:27:57 <fungot> ehird: if the rule change as described by the minimum number of units of that pitch. the designation of an
19:28:00 <ehird> for a bit.
19:28:26 <oerjan> bah
19:28:27 <oerjan> humbug
19:28:29 <oerjan> fnord
19:28:31 <oerjan> gip
19:28:33 <oerjan> graf
19:28:35 <ehird> poop
19:28:35 <oerjan> glip
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19:28:47 <oerjan> gnapoleon
19:30:44 <ehird> by the way, look at my spiffy part message
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19:30:51 <ehird> Spiffy, no
19:30:53 <ehird> ?
19:30:58 <ehird> Yes.
19:30:59 <ehird> Spiffy.
19:31:03 <ehird> Hmm.
19:31:06 <ehird> It didn't do it.
19:31:09 <ehird> Let's try again.
19:31:10 -!- ehird has left (?).
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19:31:22 <ehird> Did it do it?
19:31:30 <Asztal> "Furthermore,"
19:32:05 <olopolo> morder four
19:32:10 <olopolo> *murder
19:32:42 <oerjan> thermofurs
19:32:42 <ehird> huray
19:32:47 <ehird> thermoflask
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19:54:55 <GregorR> rinsmaster ... the MASTER of RINSING
19:55:02 <GregorR> No one can rinse like rinsmaster.
19:55:11 <ehird> hi rinsmaster
19:55:15 <ehird> sacrificed the goats
19:55:15 <ehird> ?
19:55:19 <rinsmaster> heh, hi all
19:55:34 <ehird> do not take the goats lightly :|
19:55:48 <rinsmaster> what is rinsing actually
19:55:52 <rinsmaster> I'm not that good at english
19:55:58 <rinsmaster> @GregorR
19:56:02 <oerjan> the goats need some heavy scrubbing
19:56:16 <rinsmaster> my nick comes from my sirname: Rinsma
19:56:19 <ehird> http://www.answers.com/rinsing
19:56:24 <ehird> To wash lightly with water.
19:56:39 <rinsmaster> heh
19:57:08 * GregorR reappears
19:57:11 <GregorR> Yeah, what ehird said.
19:57:17 <GregorR> Not a skill many choose to master :P
19:57:25 <rinsmaster> hehe
19:57:31 <rinsmaster> I had no choise
19:57:35 <rinsmaster> I was born with it
19:57:49 <oerjan> rinsma on steroids
19:57:54 -!- GregorR has set topic: ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>++++++.>++++..<++++++++.>>++.-----------..<.+.<--.---------.>--.>-.<----.+++.<++.>>+.>.<<----.<--.+.>>.<--.+++.<+.>++++.>.<<--.>.----.+++++.<.>--.<++++.------.>>. HAHAH OKLOPOL.
19:58:08 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>++++++.>++++..<++++++++.>>++.-----------..<.+.<--.---------.>--.>-.<----.+++.<++.>>+.>.<<----.<--.+.>>.<--.+++.<+.>++++.>.<<--.>.----.+++++.<.>--.<++++.------.>>.
19:58:08 <fungot> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/
19:58:53 <rinsmaster> heh, an irc BF-bot? nice
19:59:06 * GregorR has one he never puts online anymore :P
19:59:13 <ehird> rinsmaster: it's written in befunge.
19:59:26 <ehird> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
19:59:27 <fungot> ehird: the ideal voting entitlement circulation level ( aicl) is the recordkeepor of the case was initiated is not
19:59:32 <rinsmaster> ah
19:59:57 <rinsmaster> [spam] I made a visual bf-interpreter a few months ago, using ncurses
20:00:09 <rinsmaster> it shows the stack status and you can step through the commands
20:00:13 <rinsmaster> [/spam]
20:00:22 <ehird> :)
20:00:43 <rinsmaster> I should rewrite it in Bf though, the current one's in C
20:00:57 <ehird> lol :)
20:01:20 <rinsmaster> But I guess calling libs isn't possible in bf
20:01:31 <oerjan> rinsmaster: that's not spam, it's more on-topic than what we usually have here :D
20:01:52 <rinsmaster> oerjan, ok :)
20:02:43 <oerjan> also, sgeo would probably try to push PSOX on you for interfacing bf with
20:04:01 <oerjan> and i'm sure someone mentioned a befunge curses fingerprint the other day, so at least some funge-98 interpreters probably have that
20:04:35 <Asztal> hmmmmmm
20:04:52 <Asztal> I may write my website in befunge.
20:04:54 <rinsmaster> I think I found a real rinsmaster.. http://commtechlab.msu.edu/sites/aslweb/R/W3389.htm
20:04:58 <ehird> Asztal: FORFORFORFORFOR
20:05:09 <ehird> rinsmaster: that's YOU!
20:05:23 <rinsmaster> nah
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21:17:11 <ehird> Asztal: chunkybacon.org?
21:17:13 <ehird> awesome
21:20:39 <Asztal> :)
21:21:10 <ehird> Asztal: 's that on miau then?
21:21:21 <Asztal> not yet, it's irssi
21:21:23 <ehird> unless you've always been connected on that hostname
21:21:25 <ehird> and I just didn't notice
21:21:44 <ehird> Asztal: what distro did you put on it?
21:22:57 <Asztal_> I feel slightly shamed to say that it's ubanto, I'm considering debian instead
21:23:10 <ehird> Asztal: I have ubuntu on my slice, too.
21:23:22 <ehird> It's alright, I mean, it's Debian except stuff is less than 5 years old.
21:23:29 <ehird> Asztal: I'd recommend compiling stuff by hand mostly, though.
21:23:36 <ehird> (Use checkinstall to avoid cluttering stuff up).
21:23:46 <ehird> Also, there are a few ssh tricks you can do to speed it up a lot if you're interested.
21:23:55 <Asztal> I am indeed interested :)
21:24:52 <Asztal> miau looks nice and small, too, better than muh hopefully
21:25:10 <ehird> it's a muh fork
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21:50:17 <olopolo> sleep! :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
21:50:17 <olopolo> ->
21:50:17 <Mony> HUGE
21:50:18 <ehird> i believe in chicken
21:50:19 <ehird> and some other thing
21:50:19 <ehird> s
21:50:20 <olopolo> death by chicken
21:50:21 <Mony> i believe in angels
21:50:21 <ehird> I believe in death by angel chickens
21:50:51 <Mony> i believe in people who believes in death by angel chickens
21:51:04 <ehird> wow
21:51:19 <Mony> heh
21:51:36 <oerjan> let's not chicken out here
21:52:11 <Mony> let's made an esolang named "death by angel chicken"
21:52:28 <ehird> Commands:
21:52:38 <ehird> death(X,Y) - X must be Angel. Y must be Chicken.
21:52:44 <ehird> Death by X Y happens.
21:52:59 <ehird> esolang of the year award plz
21:53:56 <Mony> ^bf ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>++++++.>++++..<++++++++.>>++.-----------..<.+.<--.---------.>--.>-.<----.+++.<++.>>+.>.<<----.<--.+.>>.<--.+++.<+.>++++.>.<<--.>.----.+++++.<.>--.<++++.------.>>.
21:53:56 <fungot> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/
21:54:04 <Mony> :o
21:54:15 <Mony> nice
21:54:28 <Mony> i love esolangs :]
21:54:40 <Mony> i love esolanging too
21:54:44 <ais523> Mony: busy losing zen-ness points?
21:55:25 <Mony> err... well... i don't understand >_>
21:55:42 <oerjan> that's SO zen
21:55:57 <AnMaster> heh
21:56:00 <AnMaster> hi ais523
21:56:07 <oerjan> now, when you manage to understand and not understand simultaneously, you are ready
21:56:08 <AnMaster> how goes merging those patches from me btw?
21:56:12 <AnMaster> for ick
21:56:46 <ais523> not at all, I'm suffering from enforced holiday
21:56:56 <AnMaster> ais523, oh?
21:56:59 <AnMaster> what does that mean?
21:57:03 <ais523> staying over with relatives
21:57:14 <AnMaster> ais523, that is why you have internet?
21:57:17 <ais523> yes
21:57:20 <ais523> amazingly
21:57:21 <ehird> relatives never have the internet
21:57:22 <ehird> ever
21:57:24 <ais523> I don't at home, as you know
21:57:31 <ehird> i do
21:57:33 <ehird> just my 2c
21:57:37 <AnMaster> ais523, also any idea when you will be able to merge those my patches
21:57:51 <ais523> well, then if I went on holiday at ehird's I'd have internet access
21:57:57 <AnMaster> ehird, well usually relatives don't have internet that you can use, or it is 28 K modem + windows 98
21:58:00 <ehird> that would not be much of a holiday
21:58:06 <AnMaster> so yes I know what you mean
21:58:14 <ais523> ehird: neither is this
21:58:27 <AnMaster> ais523, why are you staying then :P
21:58:28 <ais523> AnMaster: I'll merge the patches before the next version release
21:58:40 <ehird> AnMaster: keyword enforced
21:58:41 <AnMaster> ais523, any fixed release date yet?
21:58:43 <ais523> AnMaster: I wouldn't be able to eat otherwise
21:58:46 <ais523> AnMaster: no, there never is
21:58:52 <AnMaster> ais523, out of money!?
21:58:53 <AnMaster> ouch
21:58:55 <ais523> although the chance of a release on or before April 1 is quite high
21:59:04 <ais523> AnMaster: no, not out of money
21:59:14 <AnMaster> then how do you mean not able to eat?
21:59:19 <ais523> just I live with my family, and all the food's coming over here
21:59:24 <AnMaster> heh
21:59:26 <ais523> I would have to go shopping myself to avoid the holiday
21:59:37 <oerjan> "Wolfram prize winner squanders money in just a year"
21:59:40 <AnMaster> ais523, 1) you live with your family 2) you don't have internet?
21:59:47 <AnMaster> what sort of family is that ;P
21:59:52 <AnMaster> no offence meant
21:59:58 <ehird> AnMaster: one that he lives with and doesn't have internet?
22:00:01 <ehird> I'm just going out on a limb here.
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22:00:04 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah
22:00:07 <AnMaster> duh
22:00:09 <ehird> Making wild and wacky assumptions, y'know.
22:00:18 <ais523> AnMaster: actually I get a lot more work done when I'm not Internet-connecte
22:00:20 <ais523> *connected
22:00:20 <AnMaster> but it is unusual
22:00:23 <AnMaster> ais523, heh
22:00:28 <ais523> for instance, nearly all my ick work is done without Internet access
22:00:34 <ais523> also nearly all my work for University
22:00:35 <ehird> i couldn't really use a computer without the internet.
22:00:40 <AnMaster> ais523, I get a lot more done when I have access to google
22:00:57 <AnMaster> or I would be coding NIH-style
22:01:08 <ehird> I love coding NIH-style.
22:01:12 <AnMaster> which equals to getting less useful done
22:01:27 <ehird> you work on cfunge
22:01:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't reinvent an existing library unless there is a very good reason
22:01:32 <ehird> it's not useful anyway
22:01:38 <AnMaster> I use existing libraries
22:01:43 <AnMaster> for a lot of common things
22:01:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't normally end up doing the sort of thing that needs libraries, existing or not
22:01:54 <ehird> I reinvent existing libraries because most libraries suck hard.
22:02:07 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is a good reason to do it
22:02:20 <ehird> AnMaster: I have high standards.
22:02:22 <AnMaster> but just consider stuff like this nice genx you recommended to me ehird
22:02:30 <ehird> Yes, genx is good.
22:02:35 <ehird> AnMaster: But you didn't want to use it. :P
22:02:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I did use it, I just said I had to fix a lot of code in it, because it didn't use "const" where it should, causing a lot of warnings
22:03:04 <AnMaster> also there were a few other issues
22:03:07 <ehird> AnMaster: "fix" is arguable.
22:03:11 <ehird> The code worked beforehand.
22:03:16 <AnMaster> ehird, there was a mem leak too iirc
22:03:19 <ehird> all you did was satisfy a pedantic compiler that should be able to work that out for itself
22:03:23 <AnMaster> check the revision history for details
22:03:23 <ehird> ok, memory leak i can understand.
22:03:24 <AnMaster> :P
22:03:27 <ehird> I assume you've submitted patches.
22:03:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I think I did, but mail bounced
22:03:43 <AnMaster> so I didn't bother then
22:03:48 <ehird> To Tim Bray? That's a bit unlikely.
22:03:59 <AnMaster> ehird, black listing the isp I use iirc
22:04:01 <AnMaster> *shrug*
22:04:15 <ehird> AnMaster: where did you send it to? tim.bray@sun.com?
22:04:25 <AnMaster> ehird, whatever was listed on the genx website
22:04:27 <AnMaster> I don't remember
22:04:32 <AnMaster> it was several months ago
22:05:02 * ehird looks
22:05:04 <AnMaster> whatever was listed in the genx code and/or on the genx website
22:05:11 <AnMaster> could have been either
22:05:29 <ehird> I don't see an email.
22:05:43 <AnMaster> ehird, must have been in the library source then
22:05:50 <AnMaster> *shrug*
22:05:50 <ehird> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/genx/genx.c
22:05:52 <ehird> nope
22:06:37 <AnMaster> ehird, then I don't know from where, oh wait just an idea: maybe the website changed
22:06:40 <AnMaster> yes I think it has
22:06:48 <AnMaster> it used to have a yellow theme I think
22:06:52 <ehird> Er, no.
22:06:55 <ehird> It was like that last time.
22:07:04 <ehird> Also, the last-mod date is 2004 :P
22:07:11 <AnMaster> true
22:08:00 <ehird> I should write a library.
22:08:04 <ehird> AnMaster: what should I write a library for?
22:08:40 <AnMaster> well it was linked somewhere on the site, may not have been the genx part. but checking my email address tab complete one *was* sent to tim.bray@sun.com
22:08:56 <AnMaster> ehird, hm library
22:08:58 <AnMaster> what language?
22:09:02 <AnMaster> C or python or what?
22:09:04 <ehird> C, probably.
22:09:07 <AnMaster> hm
22:09:23 <ehird> I could write Yet Another String Library, if I hated myself. I don't, though.
22:09:37 <AnMaster> ehird, hm something like lua, embedded scripting language, but embedding an esolang
22:09:38 <AnMaster> like
22:09:39 <oerjan> ehird: you should write a library for libraries, so you can do libraries while you do libraries. dawg.
22:09:52 <AnMaster> using intercal for embedded scripting language
22:09:53 <AnMaster> or whatever
22:10:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, that idea was nice too
22:10:12 <ehird> AnMaster: That's not very helpful because they generally don't let you do non-stdio IO
22:10:12 <oerjan> <- always at the tail end of the newest memes
22:10:26 <AnMaster> ehird, hm you have to expand a bit yes
22:10:36 <ehird> Also, INTERCAL would require reading ick's source.
22:10:42 <ehird> And, uh
22:10:42 <ehird> .
22:10:52 <oerjan> "ick"
22:11:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I made patches to ick and I can say it isn't that bad
22:11:27 <AnMaster> hm whatever you select: need to be some language with a "syntax", and has functions or something like it
22:11:31 <AnMaster> so intercal would work
22:11:42 <AnMaster> you could add entry points like that
22:11:49 <ehird> I think I'd rather make something else. :P
22:11:53 <AnMaster> ehird, but it would be hard in brainfuck
22:11:57 <AnMaster> or befunge
22:12:38 <ais523> ehird: CLC-INTERCAL has non-stdio IO
22:12:45 <AnMaster> hah!
22:12:51 <AnMaster> ais523, it is perl though
22:12:54 * ehird kills himself
22:13:08 * oerjan performs the autopsy
22:13:47 <AnMaster> also befunge has non-stdio IO
22:14:01 <AnMaster> but it doesn't work due to the other previously mentioned issues
22:14:29 <Asztal_> it has entry points, of a sort
22:14:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what is your opinion on PHP PDO? Yes it sucks because it is PHP, but apart from that?
22:14:45 <ehird> umm
22:14:47 <ehird> it's php.
22:14:55 <ehird> i mean that's like
22:15:04 <ehird> hey ehird what's your opinion on this java library
22:15:05 <AnMaster> ehird, yes exactly, but what about the pdo module?
22:15:11 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's against his religion to comment on a php program
22:15:14 <ehird> What does it do again?
22:15:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah!
22:15:21 <AnMaster> ehird, database abstraction
22:15:21 <ehird> Ah, DB layer.
22:15:24 <AnMaster> yes
22:15:38 <ehird> Doesn't look all that hot; maybe as a backing for an ORM.
22:15:43 <ehird> But I wouldn't use it raw.
22:15:51 <ehird> Correction: I wouldn't use PHP.
22:16:00 <AnMaster> ORM? Ocular Ramification Manager?
22:16:12 <ehird> Object-Relational Mapper.
22:16:13 <psygnisfive> hey ehird
22:16:15 <AnMaster> ah
22:16:18 <ehird> tl;dr - It puts yer tables in objects.
22:16:35 <AnMaster> ehird, spelling("tl;dr")?
22:16:41 <ehird> Too Long; Didn't Read.
22:16:44 <AnMaster> ah
22:16:48 <psygnisfive> ehird: actually, it puts your rows in objects
22:16:52 <psygnisfive> and your tables in classes :p
22:16:54 <ehird> psygnisfive: Thank you for that.
22:17:07 <psygnisfive> unless youre using ruby where classes are objects
22:17:08 <psygnisfive> then yes
22:17:09 <psygnisfive> ;D
22:17:19 <ehird> Wow, because that is a Ruby-specific feature.
22:17:25 <AnMaster> no it isn't
22:17:28 <psygnisfive> no
22:17:34 <ehird> Wow, because you can detect sarcasm, AnMaster.
22:17:48 <psygnisfive> just because you here more about ORM and EEISO these days from ruby than anything else
22:17:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I did, and I was clarifying it for psygnisfive
22:17:58 <ehird> no you don't, psygnisfive
22:18:04 <psygnisfive> i do!
22:18:08 <ehird> You hear more about it from them because that's all you're listening to.
22:18:18 <psygnisfive> im not listening to them at all
22:18:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out).
22:18:56 * AnMaster is listening to Mendelssohn - Violin Concerto in E minor, Op.64 2nd. mvmt
22:19:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Please no.
22:19:11 <ehird> We don't need that spam in here ...
22:19:11 <AnMaster> ehird, it was hand typed
22:19:14 <AnMaster> and indeed
22:19:20 <AnMaster> I was watching the reactions
22:19:23 <AnMaster> it is always interesting
22:19:27 <AnMaster> I dislike it myself
22:19:31 <AnMaster> :P
22:19:32 * ehird is listening to 500 kittens - I LOVE KITTENS AND RABIES (9999999999999:999)
22:19:37 * ehird is listening to 500 kittens - I LOVE KITTENS AND BABIES (9999999999999:999)
22:19:41 * ehird is listening to 500 kittens - I LOVE KITTENS AND SATAN (6:66)
22:19:42 <oerjan> O_O
22:19:44 <AnMaster> exactly
22:19:54 <AnMaster> ehird, it sucks I fully agree
22:20:16 <AnMaster> Wow, because you can detect a social experiment, ehird.
22:20:20 * psygnisfive is listening to Iron Maiden - Number of the Beast
22:20:27 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, argh
22:20:27 <AnMaster> no
22:20:30 * oerjan is listening to computer fan
22:20:35 <AnMaster> oerjan++
22:20:40 <ehird> AnMaster: intolerant much
22:20:44 <psygnisfive> anmaster, you dont like the song?
22:20:47 <AnMaster> ehird, oh yes
22:20:48 <psygnisfive> its a great song!
22:20:56 <ehird> AnMaster doesn't like anything that isn't classical.
22:20:59 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I don't like now playing, and I don't like rock
22:21:05 <AnMaster> or rap or whatever that is
22:21:09 <psygnisfive> ...
22:21:16 <ehird> IRON MAIDEN: Rock or rap. Or whatever that is. Get off my lawn.
22:21:21 <AnMaster> ehird, what?
22:21:21 <psygnisfive> i think because you dont even know what genre it is
22:21:33 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, well what is it then?
22:21:33 <psygnisfive> that you cant justifiably make a comment on it because of its genre.
22:21:42 <psygnisfive> ill let you figure that out, you're smart
22:22:07 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I think I read before what genre it was, but I don't remember exactly
22:22:14 <AnMaster> one of those on r iirc
22:22:21 <ehird> what
22:22:24 <AnMaster> so yes it makes sense
22:22:51 <psygnisfive> i think anmaster might be drunk
22:22:54 <AnMaster> "Iron Maiden are a British heavy metal band", so yes rock
22:23:02 <psygnisfive> heavy metal is not rock
22:23:03 <psygnisfive> thanks for playing
22:23:06 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I never drink alcohol
22:23:12 <AnMaster> "Heavy metal (often referred to simply as metal) is a genre of rock music[1]"
22:23:15 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music
22:23:21 <ehird> AnMaster: not all genres with guitars in are rock
22:23:23 <psygnisfive> wikipedia is wrong in that regard.
22:23:29 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, citation?
22:23:43 <ehird> correctness > citation
22:23:44 <oerjan> guantanamo music
22:23:54 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, since wikipedia has a citation for that I suggest you add a citation for your statement too
22:23:59 <ehird> oh shut up AnMaster
22:24:08 <psygnisfive> thats sort of like saying that hip hop is a genre of rock
22:24:12 <ehird> just because they have a goddamn citation and psygnisfive doesn't doesn't mean they're right
22:24:12 <psygnisfive> or rock is a genre of blues
22:24:14 <AnMaster> and in Sweden heavy metal is known as "heavy metal rock"
22:24:15 <AnMaster> so
22:24:16 <ehird> its' subjective to a degree
22:24:17 <AnMaster> I would agree'
22:24:22 <ehird> but not totally
22:24:23 <AnMaster> s/'//
22:24:42 <AnMaster> ehird, <AnMaster> and in Sweden heavy metal is known as "heavy metal rock"
22:24:54 <ehird> yeah who gives a shit what it is in your language
22:25:00 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't I see
22:25:02 <psygnisfive> AnMaster, in American, heavy metal is known as "heavy metal not rock"
22:25:04 <ehird> i'm sure you could derive all sorts of crap from english words
22:25:05 <ais523> ehird: everyone who speaks Swedish?
22:25:11 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, maybe it is, *shrug*
22:25:12 <ehird> ais523: in context.
22:25:31 <AnMaster> ais523, would you call heavy metal a type of rock or not?
22:26:00 <psygnisfive> heavy metal is itself a genre of metal
22:26:31 <ehird> Metal is rock-descended, but it is not rock.
22:28:29 <psygnisfive> i bet anmaster thinks punk is a genre of rock
22:28:34 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know, I've never listened to it
22:28:40 <AnMaster> no I don't think punk is that
22:28:43 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, why would I?
22:28:57 <psygnisfive> because punk has about as much connection to rock as metal does
22:28:59 <psygnisfive> except less so
22:29:03 <psygnisfive> since metal diverged earlier
22:29:46 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, however wikipedia has this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock
22:29:52 <AnMaster> *shrug'
22:29:56 <AnMaster> s/'/*/
22:30:02 <psygnisfive> OH NO ANMASTER PUNK IS ROCK YOU WERE WRONG
22:30:33 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, what the heck are you on?
22:30:44 <psygnisfive> a chair.
22:30:50 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, good for you
22:31:02 <ehird> AnMaster: wikipedia is not always correct just because someone who they deem reliable says so
22:31:04 <AnMaster> but something else too or you wouldn't use all caps
22:31:23 <ehird> that was sarcasti-emphasis.
22:31:27 <psygnisfive> ehird, dont bother
22:31:34 <psygnisfive> anmaster has proven his lack of intelligence.
22:31:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't think wikipedia is always reliable, but I always heard heavy metal referred to as a type of rock
22:32:11 <psygnisfive> and Finland is a Nordic country.
22:32:21 <ehird> AnMaster is swedish.
22:32:26 <psygnisfive> I know.
22:32:55 <psygnisfive> a large number of swedonoregmarkians dislike it when Finland is said to be nordic.
22:33:33 <AnMaster> interesting, if anyone agreed with you two I would expect to see something about it on the talk page on wikipedia
22:33:51 <ehird> /facepalm
22:33:53 <AnMaster> there is nothing as far as I can see at a quick glance about heavy metal not being a type or rock
22:34:01 <oerjan> psygnisfive: i think you are confusing nordic with scandinavian
22:34:03 <ehird> everything is tribal music
22:34:07 <ehird> because it descended from tribal music
22:34:08 <psygnisfive> same thing
22:34:09 <psygnisfive> :P
22:34:10 <ehird> My logic is _infallable_
22:34:11 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and Finland is nordic, what about it?
22:34:13 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
22:34:21 * oerjan swats psygnisfive -----###
22:34:26 <psygnisfive> rawr
22:34:28 <psygnisfive> do it again ;O
22:35:56 <oerjan> everything is primordial grunts
22:36:17 <ehird> everything is the big bang
22:36:19 <psygnisfive> ook ook ook
22:38:34 <Asztal> Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook!
22:39:34 <Mony> Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook! Ook! Ook.
22:39:56 <Mony> is there a OokOok interpreter bot here ? :p
22:41:38 <Asztal> That one was equivalent to +[.
22:41:45 <AnMaster> sed + fungot would work
22:41:46 <fungot> AnMaster: a transfer takes place when the first subsequent publication of a forum without objection that the organization have no effect,
22:41:53 <AnMaster> ^help
22:41:53 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
22:41:55 <AnMaster> ^style
22:41:56 <fungot> Available: agora* alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
22:42:00 <AnMaster> hm
22:42:21 <AnMaster> ^style irc
22:42:21 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
22:42:52 <ehird> ^style agora
22:42:52 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
22:51:18 <AnMaster> ehird, why changing back? Have anything against other styles?
22:51:23 <ehird> yes.
22:51:24 <ehird> they are not agora.
22:57:52 <ehird> Man, Agora is so much better than .
22:57:53 <ehird> B
22:58:20 <ais523> ehird: feel free to storm out of ##nomic in a huff because you don't like it; however, do not feel free to turn #esoteric into ##nomic as a consequence
22:58:45 <ehird> #esoteric is always offtopic. deal with it
22:58:57 <oerjan> we could make an #esoteric nomic whose only rule was that nomic games in #esoteric are forbidden
22:59:11 <ehird> oerjan: where's the self-amendment?
22:59:33 <ais523> ehird: that's done purely using scams
23:00:06 <oerjan> we could have a fake history of how the self-amendment rule was amended away
23:00:20 <ais523> oerjan: arguably a game ceases to be a nomic if that happens
23:00:22 -!- ehird has set topic: #esotermic: Rule 1. Games of nomic cabot be played in #esoteric..
23:00:44 <ehird> "Cabot" is a little-known word meaning "can be amended, this is one, and this is the only method by which they can"
23:00:52 <oerjan> i see Muphry is a player
23:01:09 <ehird> "Games of nomic acn be amended, this is one, and this is the only method by which they can be played in #esoteric."
23:01:11 <ehird> Luvely.
23:01:39 <ais523> olopolo: ehird's taken the log link out of the topic again
23:01:47 <ehird> ais523: it wasn't there a second ago.
23:01:52 <ais523> yes it was
23:01:55 <ais523> just it wasn't written in English
23:02:02 <ais523> nor in ASCII
23:02:15 <ehird> ais523: yeah a turing complete language isn't a valid form of expressing a constant :P
23:02:17 <oerjan> also, is esotermic somewhere between endotermic and exotermic?
23:02:51 <ais523> ehird: that isn't TC, that was written in single-loop BF which is clearly a non-TC language
23:03:05 <ehird> ok, s/turing complete/possibly-infinite/
23:03:39 <ehird> hey, esolangs are much better than B too.
23:03:43 <ehird> the possibilities are endless.
23:03:47 <ehird> AnMaster: come up with a library for me to make yet?
23:04:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I made my suggestion
23:04:36 <AnMaster> and so did oerjan iirc
23:04:41 <AnMaster> both were good IMO
23:04:44 <ehird> oerjan's was a meme joke.
23:04:46 <AnMaster> and no I don't have any other
23:04:52 <AnMaster> ehird, yes so why not do it still
23:05:02 <AnMaster> oh that would be good
23:05:04 <AnMaster> memlib
23:05:04 <ehird> a library for a library is so vague it's hopeless
23:05:05 <AnMaster> or
23:05:07 <AnMaster> libmeme
23:05:15 <AnMaster> libmeme or memeli b
23:05:15 <oerjan> C'est la même chose
23:05:16 <AnMaster> err
23:05:18 <AnMaster> libmeme or memelib
23:05:28 <ehird> libibido
23:05:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't know French... "This is the meme ?)
23:05:45 <AnMaster> err
23:05:50 <AnMaster> s7)/"/
23:05:52 <AnMaster> gah
23:05:56 <AnMaster> s/7/\//
23:06:05 <oerjan> "It's the same thing", i think
23:06:09 <AnMaster> ah
23:07:17 <oerjan> it's part of a famous quote
23:07:31 <AnMaster> oh? who said/wrote it?
23:08:17 <oerjan> not sure
23:08:31 <oerjan> possibly s/quote/idiom/
23:10:32 <AnMaster> ah
23:11:05 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Alphonse_Karr
23:11:05 -!- Asztal_ has quit ("leaving").
23:12:54 * ehird hacks up irc client to display quicklog timestamp as _real_ timestamp
23:13:00 <ehird> nice solution or what :)
23:14:13 -!- Asztal_ has joined.
23:14:36 <GregorR> http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/frosclearlen.html Think these look too dorky as a mount for a HMD?
23:14:42 <AnMaster> hm
23:14:52 <AnMaster> ehird, nice indeed
23:14:59 <AnMaster> ehird, what bnc are you using now?
23:15:03 <ehird> AnMaster: miau, it's great
23:15:07 <AnMaster> ah nice
23:15:07 <ehird> http://miau.sourceforge.net/
23:15:24 <ehird> nicely, the client I use is written in ruby + cocoa
23:15:26 <AnMaster> ehird, most likely not going to change since I have a working solution myself
23:15:29 <ehird> so this should be easy enough
23:15:41 * ehird will part/join in rapid succession as he debugs, though :P
23:15:52 <ehird> but you won't see it
23:15:56 <ehird> due to bouncerimation
23:16:01 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed
23:16:12 <AnMaster> znc has the same feature if I want
23:16:17 <AnMaster> I can turn on sticky channel
23:16:36 <ehird> hai
23:16:39 <AnMaster> in fact I have set #esoteric as sticky
23:16:47 <AnMaster> afk for a bit
23:16:58 <ehird> rehai
23:17:07 <ehird> ok,shows up as PRIVMSG #esoteric :rehai
23:17:21 <ehird> this will be the place
23:17:30 <ehird> AnMaster: can you please say hi in 3 seconds, twice?
23:17:32 <ehird> thx
23:18:52 <oerjan> revehai
23:19:47 <ehird> well thanks oerjan
23:20:40 <ehird> oerjan: do it again please?
23:21:39 <oerjan> hvithai
23:22:07 <ehird> EXCELLERATING DEBUGGINOMS
23:22:11 <ehird> ^.^
23:22:31 <ehird> ["23:21 ", nil, "<ehird> ", "Playing quicklog...", :notice, :myself, "ehird", nil, false, 2]
23:22:33 <ehird> ["23:21 ", nil, "<ehird> ", "End of quicklog.", :notice, :myself, "ehird", nil, false, 2]
23:22:37 <ehird> Hokay.
23:22:47 <ehird> So, when that happens, i go into quicklog mode.
23:26:08 <ehird> hey oerjan
23:26:10 <ehird> wanna do it a third time? :3
23:26:20 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating...").
23:26:25 -!- ehird has joined.
23:26:30 <ais523> I don't think that was ment to happen..
23:26:57 <oerjan> so that's what happens when i notice a ping too late
23:27:02 * oerjan feels the power
23:27:19 <oerjan> food ->
23:28:17 <ehird> did that WORK?
23:28:19 <ehird> holy cee-rap
23:28:25 <ehird> it effing worked
23:28:28 <ehird> AnMaster: this is AMAZING.
23:28:30 <ehird> :O
23:28:43 <ehird> I modified a full GUI application by adding a few lines and
23:28:45 <ehird> tried it the first time
23:28:46 <ehird> and it worked.
23:28:48 <ehird> completely.
23:28:50 <ehird> THAT IS AWESOME.
23:28:51 <ehird> :D
23:29:06 <ehird> a
23:29:08 <ehird> a
23:29:09 <ehird> a
23:29:12 <ehird> Ah, maybe slight problem.
23:29:24 <ais523> were those as deliberate?
23:29:39 <ehird> Nope, no problem.
23:29:41 <ehird> ais523: what
23:29:48 <ais523> you said a three times
23:29:54 <ehird> ah
23:29:55 <ehird> yes
23:29:56 <ais523> I was asking if it was deliberate
23:29:57 <Asztal> oh, crap, he won
23:30:01 <Asztal> triple A :(
23:31:07 <ehird> lol
23:31:08 <ehird> http://pastie.org/348641
23:31:25 <ehird> ^ the entirety of the changes I had to do to get quicklog timestamps as the real timestamps
23:31:57 <ehird> well
23:31:59 <ehird> I also added that end
23:32:01 <ehird> :P
23:32:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit).
23:33:25 <ehird> it works perfectly
23:33:28 <ehird> aaaaaawwwwwwwwwweeeeeeeeesoooooommmmmmmmeeeeeee
23:33:43 <ehird> AnMaster: BET YOU COULDN'T DO THAT WITH YER X11 AND YER KDE AND YER C++
23:34:33 <Mony> bye
23:34:40 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit").
23:34:41 <GregorR> <GregorR> http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/frosclearlen.html Think these look too dorky as a mount for a HMD?
23:36:30 <ehird> GregorR: THIS IS TOTALLY KICKASS.
23:36:58 <GregorR> ... not a useful answer :P
23:37:22 <ehird> no i mean
23:37:24 <ehird> MY LOGGER
23:37:25 <ehird> is kickass
23:37:27 * oerjan was reminded of the xkcd comic about cory doctorow. admittedly that was before he clicked the link
23:37:27 <ehird> :3
23:37:58 <oerjan> m wait what's an HMD
23:38:35 <oerjan> ah
23:38:38 <GregorR> Head-mounted display
23:38:56 <ehird> bu
23:38:56 <ehird> t
23:38:57 <oerjan> i think that means the answer is yes a priori
23:38:59 <ehird> a
23:39:06 <oerjan> without even looking at the glasses
23:39:28 <GregorR> HMDs = instant awesome, if you can't see that then your opinion is invalidated :P
23:39:44 <AnMaster> back
23:39:44 <ehird> 23:39 Error(477): #esoteric [freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots, please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
23:39:47 <ehird> ^ fuck off freenode
23:39:48 <oerjan> things can be instant awesome in a dorky way
23:40:11 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: can you please say hi in 3 seconds, twice? <-- you didn't see this like 3 lines above: <AnMaster> afk for a bit
23:40:46 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: BET YOU COULDN'T DO THAT WITH YER X11 AND YER KDE AND YER C++ <-- ?? I don't code in C++
23:40:54 <ehird> yes and?
23:40:57 <AnMaster> and I believe you could do it in lisp
23:41:02 <ehird> sure you could.
23:41:03 <AnMaster> which is what my irc client is coded in
23:41:06 <ehird> but it's easier in ruby. :P
23:41:10 <oerjan> is there a correlation between not coding in C++ and not drinking alcohol?
23:41:15 <ehird> plus it'd be just as easy to modify the cocoa gui.
23:41:30 <AnMaster> ehird, how is X11 related to changing timestamps?
23:41:38 <AnMaster> for me irc client and X11 aren't related
23:41:42 <ehird> because my irc client is a graphical app, because I live in the 21st century
23:41:43 <ehird> and you don't
23:41:44 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:42:05 <AnMaster> ehird, well, since irc is textual, it is still mainly text centric
23:42:18 <ehird> name list, channel list, etc.
23:42:20 <ehird> topic bar
23:42:24 <AnMaster> sure indeed
23:42:31 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the !!?
23:42:36 <AnMaster> looks like a strange type of diff
23:42:40 <ehird> AnMaster: see the top of the paste
23:42:44 <AnMaster> ah
23:42:45 <AnMaster> right
23:43:00 <AnMaster> ehird, what is wrong with the normal diff -u format?
23:43:08 <ehird> i didn't store a copy of the original.
23:43:13 <AnMaster> ah ok makes senser
23:43:15 <AnMaster> sense*
23:43:15 <ehird> :P
23:43:32 <ehird> Wonder if miau can reload the rc without restarting. Ah, fuck it.
23:43:36 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating...").
23:43:39 -!- ehird has joined.
23:43:42 <AnMaster> ehird, right there is nothing that using coca there as far as I can see
23:43:56 <AnMaster> it would work just the same if it did console output
23:44:01 <ehird> AnMaster: no, there isn't
23:44:03 <ehird> but I meant I could do it with a gui part just as easily :P
23:44:03 <AnMaster> since it only changes time stamps it seems
23:44:08 <ehird> see ^
23:44:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: BET YOU COULDN'T DO THAT WITH YER X11 AND YER KDE AND YER C++
23:44:16 <AnMaster> err
23:44:21 <AnMaster> that sounded like not so
23:44:33 <ehird> I was just trolling. :p
23:45:05 <AnMaster> right
23:45:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I believe it would be rather easy in erc too
23:45:20 <ehird> I wonder what the best practice is for something that seems like an /etc/init.d/ thing, but that is for one specific user.
23:45:27 <AnMaster> I would just have to change the format output hook a bit
23:45:33 <AnMaster> I already use a custom one
23:45:34 <ehird> miau runs as my user and uses ~/.miau/ for stuff.
23:45:37 <AnMaster> so I could easily do it
23:45:46 <ehird> But putting something in init.d that sudos as me and runs miau seems redonkulous.
23:46:02 <AnMaster> redonkulous?
23:46:17 <AnMaster> No definitions were found for redonkulous.
23:46:20 <AnMaster> sigh
23:46:22 <ehird> try urbandictionary :P
23:46:31 <AnMaster> ah
23:46:53 <ehird> i don't actually know the origins
23:46:56 <ehird> but everyone uses it.
23:47:11 <AnMaster> first time I have seen it on irc
23:47:22 <oerjan> ridiculous in the way of a small donkey, i assume
23:47:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, is a small donkey ridiculous?
23:47:42 <ehird> very
23:47:47 <AnMaster> hm ok
23:47:51 <oerjan> if it's small enough
23:47:59 <oerjan> like you can hold it in your hand
23:48:04 <AnMaster> well ok
23:48:07 <AnMaster> true
23:48:13 <AnMaster> that would be very ridiculous
23:48:31 <ehird> Huh.
23:48:35 <ehird> Root is runnin gdd.
23:48:37 <ehird> Why
23:48:38 <ehird> ?
23:48:41 <ehird> *running dd
23:48:41 <AnMaster> gdd?
23:48:43 <AnMaster> ah
23:48:56 <AnMaster> ehird, oh that's just me copying ur passwords
23:49:05 <AnMaster> ;P
23:49:07 <ehird> ur in my rutian, copying mah passwords?
23:49:08 <ehird> zomg!!
23:49:23 <ehird> $ ps -A|wc -l
23:49:23 <ehird> 58
23:49:25 <AnMaster> ehird, All ur passwords are belong to me
23:49:27 <ehird> Minimal enough.
23:49:53 <ehird> I actually have less packages installed than the default minimal server install
23:49:53 <ehird> $ dpkg-query -W|wc -l
23:49:54 <ehird> 177
23:49:59 <ehird> default is around 220 or something
23:50:24 <AnMaster> You have no time to chance survive your make
23:50:31 <AnMaster> (yoda version)
23:50:46 <AnMaster> (and yes also reversed in other parts)
23:50:47 <ehird> $ make your time
23:50:47 <ehird> make: *** No rule to make target `your'. Stop.
23:50:55 <AnMaster> ehird, heh
23:51:10 <AnMaster> the original is "You have no chance to survive make your time." btw
23:51:59 <ehird> i know.
23:51:59 <ehird> ehird@rutian:~$ make "awesome'. This is unacceptable. As Ghandi said, \`I am appalled"
23:52:00 <ehird> make: *** No rule to make target `awesome'. This is unacceptable. As Ghandi said, `I am appalled'. Stop.
23:52:41 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the quote from? I mean not the Ghandi part, but the rest
23:52:44 <Asztal> you should enable make_magic_quotes!
23:52:48 <ehird> AnMaster: nothing
23:52:50 <ehird> Asztal: FOR
23:52:59 <AnMaster> ehird, ok then WHY?
23:53:05 <ehird> AnMaster: why not
23:53:09 <AnMaster> true
23:53:13 <ehird> $ make up a reason
23:53:13 <ehird> make: *** No rule to make target `up'. Stop.
23:53:17 <AnMaster> nop can't
23:53:25 <ehird> that actually makes sense
23:53:25 <ehird> :^)
23:53:31 <AnMaster> indeed
23:53:47 <ehird> people should use :^) more
23:53:48 <AnMaster> ehird, and it gave you the reason as well
23:53:55 <AnMaster> ehird, what does that one mean?
23:54:08 <AnMaster> I mean in what way does the meaning differ from :)
23:54:25 <ehird> ^ is a nose.
23:54:29 <ehird> except a cooler nose than -
23:54:31 <AnMaster> true
23:54:38 <AnMaster> but does it have the same meaning?
23:54:49 <AnMaster> ehird, also we all know ^ is eye: ^_^
23:54:52 <AnMaster> ;P
23:57:40 <oerjan> :^_^)
23:57:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, nice one
23:57:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, "one swollen ear"?
23:58:09 <AnMaster> or hm what could it be in the other direction
23:58:31 <ehird> :^
23:58:32 <ehird> awwwwwww
23:58:34 <ehird> look at its smile
23:58:37 <ehird> or
23:58:39 <ehird> beak
23:58:43 <AnMaster> haha
23:58:46 <AnMaster> beakies?
23:58:55 <ehird> ^:
23:58:57 <AnMaster> that would like, rock
23:59:01 <ehird> it's ALSO HAPPY
23:59:17 <ehird> AnMaster: i think it's impossible to make a beakie do anything but smil
23:59:17 <ehird> e
23:59:28 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe with some unicode?
23:59:37 <AnMaster> or if not: irc will be a happier place
23:59:38 <ehird> :†^
23:59:41 <oerjan> :^V
23:59:42 <AnMaster> since no one can be unhappy
23:59:43 <AnMaster> :D
2008-12-30
00:00:41 <oerjan> happiness is mandatory
00:02:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, :)
00:03:47 * oerjan wonders if AnMaster got the reference
00:04:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, no
00:04:09 <AnMaster> what reference?
00:04:48 <oerjan> it's from the Paranoia roleplaying game. if you're not happy, you're terminated.
00:05:04 <ehird> oerjan: murphy just advertised his ParaNomic XP game.
00:05:11 <ehird> nice coincidence :^)
00:05:53 * oerjan envisions color-coded rules
00:06:07 <ehird> http://asynchronous.org/paranomic-xp/index.php?title=Main_Page & http://groups.google.com/group/paranomic-xp
00:08:01 <oerjan> finally spammers get the proper treatment
00:08:47 -!- GregorR has joined.
00:09:01 <GregorR> xchat crashed again! I can barely believe it!
00:09:09 <GregorR> http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/frosclearlen.html or http://safetyglassesusa.com/19742.html
00:10:21 <ehird> http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/999999.html
00:20:58 <olopolo> genres are a stupid
00:21:01 <olopolo> also morning
00:24:55 <ehird> evening
00:25:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
00:36:16 <olopolo> finally
00:36:20 <olopolo> logs have been read
00:36:43 <ehird> lol
00:37:19 <ehird> olopolo: Furthermore,
00:37:19 <olopolo> how insensitive.
00:38:03 <olopolo> Furthermore,?
00:38:20 <olopolo> oh.
00:38:21 <ehird> yes.
00:38:23 <ehird> Furthermore,.
00:38:25 <olopolo> well bye
00:39:38 <ehird> olopolo: what
00:39:49 <olopolo> what.
00:40:02 <ehird> olopolo: what
00:40:04 <olopolo> j is so awesome
00:40:18 <ehird> k
00:40:30 <olopolo> understanding short code snippets is always an adventure
01:06:12 -!- devo has joined.
01:06:13 -!- devo has left (?).
01:19:35 <psygnisfive> so
01:19:59 <psygnisfive> my little honors thesis project basically involves a graph rewriting component
01:20:32 <psygnisfive> which i suppose means that, since graph rewriting languages are equivalent to turing machines
01:20:44 <psygnisfive> that my little model of language has the potential to be turing complete
01:20:45 <psygnisfive> :O
01:45:53 -!- EgoBot has joined.
01:46:03 <GregorR> !help
01:46:13 <GregorR> Promising.
01:46:31 <GregorR> ... it received it ...
01:46:35 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:51:14 -!- EgoBot has joined.
01:51:18 <GregorR> !help
01:51:45 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:53:29 -!- EgoBot has joined.
01:53:37 <GregorR> !help
01:53:45 <GregorR> OH COME ON
01:53:46 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
01:53:51 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
01:54:09 <GregorR> Oh ... hm, now it's trying to spam blank lines 8-D
01:54:15 <GregorR> !raw QUIT
01:54:29 <olopolo> psygnisfive: col
01:54:35 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:55:28 -!- olopolo has changed nick to oklopol.
01:55:28 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:06:47 <psygnisfive> col?
02:08:32 <oklopol> it's a lazy cool
02:08:41 <psygnisfive> i see
02:09:33 <Warrigal> The oklopol alphabet: bdhklopq
02:09:51 <oklopol> h isn't really my type
02:10:08 <Warrigal> oblodohokloloplol
02:10:25 <oklopol> "pl" isn't right
02:11:08 <oklopol> bl is a bit iffy too
02:11:16 <psygnisfive> i wonder if we could do some statistics on oklopols various names to see if theres some general trends beyond only using o as a vowel
02:11:39 <psygnisfive> lets see
02:11:43 <oklopol> doo it
02:11:52 <psygnisfive> oklopol oklofok olopolo
02:11:59 <psygnisfive> what else
02:12:12 <Warrigal> Clearly, we should only use certain digraphs.
02:12:28 <Warrigal> Initial and final letters count as digraphs. You're not allowed to start with anything but o.
02:12:51 <psygnisfive> oklopol what else have you used
02:13:16 <oklopol> umm.
02:13:20 <oklopol> a lot of stuff.
02:13:32 <psygnisfive> tell me!
02:13:45 <oklopol> oklokok is #3, probably
02:13:54 <psygnisfive> oklokok is whats between your legs
02:14:04 <psygnisfive> but ok
02:14:10 <Warrigal> oklopolofoko
02:14:20 <psygnisfive> oklopol oklofok olopolo oklokok
02:14:24 <Warrigal> lol
02:14:27 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i don't see your point
02:14:36 <oklopol> yes, that's the etymology
02:15:07 <Warrigal> I want to make a random oklopol generator.
02:15:26 <psygnisfive> so the regex so far is /olopolo|(oklo(pol|fok|kok))/
02:15:48 <psygnisfive> we might expect that this generalizes to /olopolo|(oklo(p|f|k)o(l|k))/
02:15:57 <Warrigal> You're not going to make a regex that recognizes anything containing only those digraphs?
02:16:07 <Warrigal> I did that once for the name "GreenReaper". The resulting regex was very long.
02:16:22 <psygnisfive> suggesting that you could also use oklopok, oklofol, oklokol, oklopok
02:16:36 <oklopol> i could.
02:16:43 <psygnisfive> warrigal: what digraphs?
02:16:45 <Warrigal> On "oklopol" only: /o(klo|po)*l/
02:16:46 <oklopol> and i think i have, at least a few of them
02:16:59 <Warrigal> psygnisfive: the digraphs in "oklopol" and "oklofok" and "olopolo" and "oklokok".
02:17:33 <psygnisfive> you mean ok lo po ko and fo?
02:18:14 <psygnisfive> we have no evidence for the oklo name language being more general than that, warrigal
02:18:29 <Warrigal> No, ok, kl, lo, op, po, ol, of, fo, ko, as well as initial o and final l, k, and o.
02:18:31 <psygnisfive> we just have olopolo, oklopol, oklofok, and oklokok
02:19:29 <psygnisfive> oklopol says might have also used some of oklopok, oklofol, oklokol
02:19:45 <oklopol> "fof" wouldn't really belong in the family
02:19:47 -!- oklopol has changed nick to fof.
02:19:51 <fof> but it's pretty cute.
02:19:54 <fof> :-)
02:20:07 <psygnisfive> so like i said it seems we might be able to generalize to /olopolo|(oklo(p|f|k)o(l|k))/
02:20:28 <fof> oklopoll was my secondary nick at some point
02:20:36 <psygnisfive> with two l's?
02:20:45 <fof> yess
02:20:47 <psygnisfive> well thats an orthographic variant of l, lets say
02:21:08 <fof> i've also been oklodol and oklodok
02:21:12 <fof> maybe even oklodoll :D
02:21:24 <fof> hmm
02:21:25 <psygnisfive> ok: /olopolo|(oklo(d|p|f|k)o(ll?|k))/
02:21:34 <fof> variantness would account for doll nicely too
02:22:15 <Warrigal> fof: well, ofofofofo would fit.
02:22:27 <Warrigal> Secondary stress on the first syllable, primary stress on the penultimate.
02:22:32 <fof> hey cool. i should make like a mirc script on that info
02:22:46 <psygnisfive> warrigal: it would fit what?
02:22:49 <fof> Warrigal: where do you get that?
02:22:51 <psygnisfive> your imagined digraph patterns?
02:22:59 <psygnisfive> none of his names display that pattern.
02:23:12 <psygnisfive> all of them except olopolo have oklo- prefix
02:23:14 <fof> all my nicks have primary stress on the first syllable
02:23:44 <psygnisfive> methinks warrigal is silly
02:23:57 <fof> well, that's just how he is
02:24:34 -!- fof has changed nick to oklodol.
02:24:38 <Warrigal> !
02:24:52 <Warrigal> Now you have That Letter NetHack Uses To Represent Canines.
02:25:04 <Warrigal> Actually, all canids, I think. Foxes are d, aren't they?
02:25:05 <oklodol> this is a rather gay nick
02:25:10 <oklodol> but i like it :|
02:25:23 <oklodol> i would probably use it a lot if it wasn't so gay
02:25:30 <psygnisfive> oklodol looks like a pill women take to prevent bloating
02:25:32 <oklodol> Warrigal: i don't play
02:25:37 <psygnisfive> midol, and its sister drug, oklodol
02:25:43 <oklodol> hehe
02:25:44 <Warrigal> I wonder what makes a nick gay.
02:25:48 <psygnisfive> oklodoll is cuter
02:25:50 <psygnisfive> and defiitely gayer
02:25:56 <psygnisfive> much more suited to you, oklo.
02:26:18 <oklodol> i think dol is a cuter suffix
02:26:23 <Warrigal> Does "gay" mean "embarrasing or perceived to be perverted" or something?
02:26:27 <psygnisfive> no
02:26:29 <psygnisfive> it means homosexual.
02:26:35 <psygnisfive> as in, "oklo-ish"
02:26:44 <psygnisfive> even tho hes oklosexual.
02:26:47 <oklodol> Warrigal: you don't know what gay means? :D
02:27:36 <Warrigal> I don't think you meant "This nick kind of likes to have sex with other nicks of the same gender".
02:27:53 <psygnisfive> ofcourse thats what he meant
02:27:59 <oklodol> 6!:2 '(6!:3) 3'
02:27:59 <oklodol> 3.03061
02:28:03 * oklodol giggles
02:28:11 <psygnisfive> what? lol
02:28:23 <oklodol> yeah it's pretty funny :D
02:28:37 <Asztal> J?
02:28:45 <oklodol> yes, i hope you don't know it
02:28:50 <oklodol> because that sure as hell was not funny.
02:29:03 <Warrigal> How gay would the nick "Warridal" be, then?
02:29:13 <oklodol> less so?
02:29:20 <Warrigal> Less than "oklodol"?
02:29:21 <oklodol> i mean you're a warry gal
02:29:29 <oklodol> "kitty can scratch"
02:29:45 <Warrigal> I hope nobody interprets the "gal" at the end as meaning I'm female. :-P
02:30:07 <Warrigal> Maybe I should emphasise the pronunciation by changing it to "Warrigle" or something, even though it would no longer be spelled right.
02:30:08 <oklodol> for the purposes of assessing gayness they might
02:30:33 <Warrigal> That "a" is just about silent, even.
02:30:38 <oklodol> how about WarryGal
02:30:52 <oklodol> yes, i know what pronunciation you're going for
02:31:11 <oklodol> don't assume i don't know everything, it's demeaning
02:31:29 <Warrigal> Sorry, but aren't I supposed to be the all-knowing one in this conversation?
02:31:53 <Warrigal> I find it most very offensive when you pretend I make mistakes.
02:32:33 <oklodol> i find it most offensive you're offended by your mom
02:32:46 <Warrigal> You're like Hitler.
02:32:49 <Warrigal> Glad that argument's over.
02:33:37 <psygnisfive> warrigal: its not about silent at all
02:33:54 <psygnisfive> its a schwa, not silence.
02:34:08 <oklodol> psygnisfive: he knows, he's lojbanese
02:34:12 <Warrigal> Lojbanised: .UORigl.
02:34:19 <oklodol> ^ behold.
02:34:25 <psygnisfive> pfft
02:34:29 <Warrigal> Except where the "i" is the lojban pretend-it-isn't-there i.
02:34:34 <psygnisfive> lojban is an ugly language
02:34:43 <oklodol> psygnisfive: that's hardly the point
02:34:48 <oklodol> the point is i read his mind
02:35:13 <oklodol> "this term, i've heard it in lojban contexts, let's lojban it up"
02:35:34 <oklodol> of course, that probably isn't what he thought, but that's hardly the point either
02:35:47 <oklodol> there is no point, only mindless characters
02:35:48 <Warrigal> I haven't heard the word "Warrigal" in lojban contexts.
02:35:50 <oklodol> wandering around
02:35:53 <Warrigal> (Alternatively, .UORigyl.)
02:36:20 <oklodol> i mean, he didn't actually seem to respond to schwa with that lojban comment
02:36:46 <oklodol> well. we will never know
02:37:02 <oklodol> 7!:2 '+a' NB. But + (conjugate) does, even for a real array
02:37:02 <oklodol> 576
02:37:08 <oklodol> lol okay *that* is funny
02:37:13 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:37:18 <Warrigal> Is it .UORigl. or .UORigyl.? The world may never know.
02:37:24 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
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02:37:30 <oklodol> of course now it's not enough if you know j, you'd have to know what i'm talking about.
02:38:27 <psygnisfive> J is such an interesting language
02:38:45 <oklodol> is that trying to be sarcasm
02:38:50 <psygnisfive> nope!
02:38:53 <psygnisfive> i like J
02:38:55 <oklodol> good
02:38:57 <psygnisfive> its weird
02:38:58 <oklodol> yeah it's awesome
02:39:00 <psygnisfive> and thus wonderful
02:39:02 <psygnisfive> also
02:39:21 <psygnisfive> ive been tempted to try and design a lisp processor that doesn't simulate lisp with registers
02:39:32 <psygnisfive> but instead is actually a lisp machine
02:40:00 <psygnisfive> juno wudaimeen?
02:40:05 <oklodol> might be niec
02:40:39 <oklodol> i think eino
02:40:44 <psygnisfive> i mean, all the lisp processors ive seen are sort of register based
02:41:09 <psygnisfive> with stacks for storing register state for recursion and other nested function calls
02:41:24 <psygnisfive> but when you hand evaluate lisp you dont do this at all
02:41:36 <oklodol> yeah, whereas the processor should definitely understand regexes
02:41:43 <psygnisfive> lol
02:41:48 <oklodol> WHAT
02:41:48 <psygnisfive> obviously
02:41:52 <oklodol> DID I SAY REGEXES
02:41:55 <oklodol> THAT'S SO WHAT I MEANT.
02:42:09 <psygnisfive> i think processors should understand thue.
02:42:22 <oklodol> (i *occasionally* meant sexps)
02:42:28 <psygnisfive> also, earlier i realized why graph rewriting is obviously TC
02:43:35 <oklodol> why then?
02:43:58 <oklodol> because kolmogorov proved it or because you can encode thue in it?
02:43:59 * Warrigal decides to ignore this channel until someone says his name
02:44:03 <oklodol> Warrigal
02:44:12 * Warrigal decides to ignore this channel until someone says his name again
02:44:16 <oklodol> Warrigal
02:44:19 * Warrigal decides to ignore this channel until someone says his name again again
02:44:23 <oklodol> Warrigal
02:44:26 <psygnisfive> because you can trivially encode a Type-0 language in it
02:44:30 * Warrigal decides to ignore this channel for a while
02:44:33 * oklodol decides to get bored
02:44:41 <oklodol> hmm
02:44:46 <psygnisfive> i mean
02:45:01 <psygnisfive> a string is kind of just a graph that consists of only one chain
02:45:11 <oklodol> that's bad, ehird will so cling onto that.
02:45:16 <psygnisfive> abc is the graph ({a,b,c}, {(a,b),(b,c)})
02:45:32 <oklodol> ehird: i did not get bored, i just meant i decide not to continue doing that.
02:45:33 <psygnisfive> obviously the string "aa" in a graph would need to be like
02:45:45 <psygnisfive> ({a1,a2},{(a1,a2)})
02:45:48 <oklodol> ehird: sorry for confusing you, my life is still interesting 24/7.
02:46:52 <oklodol> yeah and you just hang things from the nodes of the path
02:46:54 <oklodol> to make characters
02:47:07 <psygnisfive> mm yeah that works even better
02:47:12 <oklodol> thus trivially encoding thue
02:47:15 <psygnisfive> you dont need to index your symbols
02:47:16 <oklodol> oh, you had another way?
02:47:27 <oklodol> i'm all queers
02:47:31 <oklodol> ...
02:47:34 <oklodol> whoops, must be the nick
02:47:40 <Warrigal> I think the graph representing the string "aa" is best written like this: aa
02:47:55 <psygnisfive> warrigal, thats a bad representation of the string as a graph
02:48:10 <Warrigal> I think you mean it's a bad representation of the graph as a string.
02:48:12 <oklodol> Warrigal: i read that as just one node eodermdrome
02:48:17 <oklodol> ...
02:48:18 <oklodol> lol
02:48:19 <psygnisfive> anyway
02:48:19 <Warrigal> That has two nodes, labeled a and a, connected.
02:48:21 <psygnisfive> oklodol
02:48:26 <psygnisfive> instead of indexing the nodes like i suggested
02:48:33 <oklodol> *node as eodermdrome notation
02:48:49 <psygnisfive> you could just have a 1-to-1 correspondence between string-symbol and some graph-nodes
02:49:02 <psygnisfive> where the n's symbol corresponds to some node n
02:49:08 <psygnisfive> with the relevant connections
02:49:14 <Warrigal> Here's a little star made of a's: aaa(aa)(aa)(aa)(aa)aa
02:49:21 <Warrigal> Here's a little ring made of a's: a1aaaaa1
02:49:30 <psygnisfive> and just connect node i to the graph node that represents the symbol for string-symbol i
02:50:22 <oklodol> Warrigal: (aa) means a path that returns after )?
02:50:30 <Warrigal> oklodol: yep.
02:50:35 -!- jayCampbell has joined.
02:50:49 <jayCampbell> esohi
02:51:01 <Warrigal> Well, the last thing in the parentheses is not connected to the thing before the parentheses.
02:51:11 -!- GregorR has joined.
02:51:21 <oklodol> Warrigal: that's kinda like eodermdrome, except you have a prettier way to return from the depth-first descent
02:51:30 <oklodol> Warrigal: i know
02:51:34 <Warrigal> This is inspired by SMILES.
02:51:56 <oklodol> oh. well i'm sure you could've invented it just as well.
02:52:05 <Warrigal> I'm sure I could have.
02:52:30 <Warrigal> This is an example of SMILES, I believe: CC(CC1=CC=CC=C1)NC
02:52:46 <oklodol> psygnisfive: sorry, i mentally ignored you for a moment, i tend to separate conversations like that
02:52:49 * oklodol reads
02:52:52 <psygnisfive> its ok :)
02:53:23 <Warrigal> Looking at that, you can tell you have a couple of carbons, and then a branch with what appears to be an aromatic ring, and the other branch is nitrogen and then carbon.
02:53:59 <Warrigal> The common name of that molecule is methamphetamine.
02:54:20 * Warrigal tries to come up with a SMILES for paracetamol
02:54:51 <oklodol> psygnisfive: so kinda like mine, except you have just one copy of each glyph-subgraph?
02:54:52 <psygnisfive> nevermind oklodol nevermind :p
02:54:52 <oklodol> :i
02:54:52 <oklodol> i do mind
02:54:53 <oklodol> hmm. can't be what you meant
02:54:54 <oklodol> or at least not with the kind of graph rewriting i'm thinking
02:54:54 <oklodol> you didn't really specify of course
02:55:01 <psygnisfive> im giving a formal mathematical definition to a mathematician friend
02:55:06 <psygnisfive> ill post it here if you want
02:55:11 <oklodol> psygnisfive: sure.
02:55:17 <oklodol> of course i'm only half-mathematician
02:56:12 <oklodol> Warrigal: i can't reverse-engineer ='s right now
02:56:13 <oklodol> ...
02:56:14 <oklodol> wait
02:56:18 <oklodol> i can with the explanation
02:56:50 <jayCampbell> this channel has certainly evolved
02:56:50 <oklodol> do *not* explain ='s.
02:56:54 <jayCampbell> pun only half intended
02:56:55 <oklodol> jayCampbell: from what to what
02:57:04 <psygnisfive> what pun
02:57:04 <oklodol> and also hi
02:57:13 <oklodol> i also mentally ignored you :)
02:57:24 <oklodol> and yeah, what pun?
02:57:25 <Warrigal> CC(=O)NC1=CC=C(O)C=C1
02:57:42 <jayCampbell> "evolved", this looks like organic chemistry
02:57:49 <oklodol> oh okay.
02:57:55 <oklodol> kinda far-fetched
02:58:05 <oklodol> so. from what to what?
02:58:37 <jayCampbell> from brainfuck to brain stimulant production
02:58:40 <oklodol> i thought it is, and always has been, a bag of random.
02:59:03 <oklodol> jayCampbell: we produce less than you could ever imagine
02:59:14 <oklodol> such small amounts it's mindblowing
03:01:33 <psygnisfive> ok oklodol
03:01:44 <psygnisfive> you want my little proof that graph rewriting is TC? :)
03:02:03 <Warrigal> My little proof that graph rewriting is TC is "Thue".
03:02:08 <psygnisfive> its beautifully trivial :D
03:02:15 <oklodol> well sure, if it's just you pasting a link
03:02:15 <Warrigal> Yours is probably more interesting.
03:02:29 <psygnisfive> well, ill write it up and give you the link then
03:03:01 <oklodol> psygnisfive: you can write it here as well
03:03:18 <psygnisfive> well, i'd rather have it all together, not spread out between other convos anyway
03:03:18 <psygnisfive> so
03:03:27 <oklodol> understandable
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03:26:17 <oklodol> hy
03:32:40 <oklodol> i think i should try sleeping again
03:32:43 <oklodol> cya ->
03:37:24 <psygnisfive> oklopol
03:37:29 <psygnisfive> oklodol
03:37:39 <oklodol> ...well yes?
03:37:40 <psygnisfive> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/graph_rewriting_tc_proof.html
03:37:41 <oklodol> done?
03:38:07 <oklodol> i'll just read the beginning, then go to sleep.
03:38:28 <psygnisfive> theres not much to it other that showing that strings can be mapped to graphs
03:38:58 <psygnisfive> once youve done that, its trivial to replace rules that use strings with rules that use graphs
03:42:35 <psygnisfive> obviously to be more complete we'd want some rule for deriving new node sets at each step but thats trivial and boring
03:42:46 -!- jayCampbell has left (?).
03:43:24 <oklodol> well i have no idea how to do the mapping to graph rewriting rules
03:43:32 <oklodol> but, i don't know what rewriting you use
03:43:35 <psygnisfive> there is no real mapping
03:43:47 <psygnisfive> the mapping is just replacing the rules s -> s'
03:43:53 <psygnisfive> with rules G_s -> G_s'
03:44:22 <psygnisfive> er
03:44:28 <oklodol> i'll just believe that works.
03:44:31 <psygnisfive> K_s -> K_s'
03:44:34 <psygnisfive> it does
03:44:39 <psygnisfive> because strings can become graphs
03:44:48 <psygnisfive> a substring is a subgraph
03:45:11 <psygnisfive> so any string that has the substring s can be made into a graph that has the subgraph K_s
03:45:43 <oklodol> yeah i'm almost there.
03:45:46 <oklodol> but seriously
03:45:47 <oklodol> sleep
03:45:50 <psygnisfive> night :)
03:45:54 <oklodol> almost 6 am
03:45:56 <oklodol> :<
03:46:05 <oklodol> tried sleeping at 0:00
03:46:07 <oklodol> slept till 2
03:46:12 <oklodol> asdfjksjdflkj
03:46:13 <oklodol> ->
03:57:04 <oklodol> so say i have the string abc, and the rewriting rule ab->cc, first of all i'd have the graph ({0,1,2,a,b,c}, {(a,b),(b,c),(0,a),(1,b),(2,c)}) to represent abc?
03:57:27 <oklodol> where 0 1 2 are the nodes that represent the string
03:57:34 <oklodol> and a b c represent the symbols
03:58:56 <psygnisfive> hahaha
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03:59:01 <psygnisfive> yes :)
03:59:10 <psygnisfive> actually i modified it so that the graph's V has all the symbols in A
03:59:16 <psygnisfive> just to make it cleaner.
03:59:18 <oklodol> no waittt
03:59:23 <psygnisfive> but yes
03:59:26 <oklodol> if i have 0 1 2 be the actual characters
03:59:37 <oklodol> then (0,1) (1,2) and not (a,b) (b,c)
03:59:45 <psygnisfive> well yes
04:00:03 <psygnisfive> obviously you'd want to have symbols that aren't integers
04:00:22 <psygnisfive> so constraint it that all the symbols are of the form [s]
04:00:23 <oklodol> anyway, then the rewriting rule would be ({3, 4, a, b}, {(3,4), (3,a), (4,b)}) -> ({5, 6, c}, {(5,6), (5,c), (6,c)})?
04:00:24 <psygnisfive> or whatever you want.
04:00:42 <psygnisfive> er what?
04:01:24 <oklodol> :)
04:01:27 <oklodol> dunno. you show me
04:01:43 <psygnisfive> also, obviously this doesnt take into account the fact that i could be different when you look at the string being rewritten and the substring
04:01:45 <psygnisfive> ok so
04:01:53 <psygnisfive> if you have some rule ab -> cc
04:01:57 <psygnisfive> you have the graph rule
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04:02:38 <psygnisfive> ({1, 2, a, b}, {(1, 2), (1, a), (2, b)}) -> ({1, 2, c}, {(1, 2), (1, c), (2, c)})
04:02:42 <Sgeo> I should do an esolang based on Active Worlds action lines
04:02:55 <oklodol> psygnisfive: hmm right.
04:03:32 <oklodol> but how does the graph rewriting work exactly?
04:03:38 <psygnisfive> what do you mean?
04:03:46 <oklodol> i mean obviously a, b and c are named nodes there
04:03:53 <oklodol> and 1, 2 aren't, they're variables
04:04:00 <oklodol> that can match any node
04:04:27 <psygnisfive> the node names are arbitrary.
04:04:41 <psygnisfive> just like i is arbitrary in a substring
04:04:52 <oklodol> i mean if not, then the first one could just as well be matching the string, not the string's two characters and the symbol nodes
04:04:54 <psygnisfive> the graphs there are subgraphs of some given graph in a derivation
04:05:19 <oklodol> if a and b aren't special then ({1, 2, a, b}, {(1, 2), (1, a), (2, b)}) will match any path of 4 nodes
04:05:21 <psygnisfive> just like the strings in the rule ab -> cc are substrings of a given string in a derivation
04:05:46 <psygnisfive> we could replace them with variables if you want, it doesn't matter.
04:05:54 <oklodol> hmm.
04:06:05 <oklodol> but...
04:06:06 <psygnisfive> the point is that strings can be mapped to graphs
04:06:32 <oklodol> i mean in the rule ({1, 2, a, b}, {(1, 2), (1, a), (2, b)}) -> ({1, 2, c}, {(1, 2), (1, c), (2, c)}), don't a, b and c necessarily have to refer to the same a, b and c as in the actual string
04:06:35 <psygnisfive> and any rule that rewrites some substring s1 .. sn as s1' ... sn'
04:06:46 <psygnisfive> can be rephrased to rewrite the equivalent subgraph
04:06:58 <psygnisfive> oklodol: what?
04:07:12 <oklodol> what what?
04:07:21 <psygnisfive> what do you mean the same a, b, and c as in the actual string?
04:07:32 <oklodol> in the graph construction of abc
04:07:45 <psygnisfive> what does that even mean tho?
04:07:55 <oklodol> that you're not just matching any path of 4 nodes.
04:08:16 <psygnisfive> that graph, firstly, is not a path of 4 nodes.
04:08:24 <oklodol> it's not?
04:08:27 <psygnisfive> its at most a graph of three nodes, but thats semi irrelevant
04:08:31 <psygnisfive> no, its a directed graph
04:08:36 <oklodol> oh.
04:08:50 <oklodol> that chages things.
04:08:53 <psygnisfive> :P
04:08:56 <oklodol> *changes
04:08:56 <psygnisfive> dumbass
04:09:08 <oklodol> yes, and still i'm not satisfied
04:09:09 <oklodol> i mean
04:09:16 <oklodol> still, the same question
04:09:25 <psygnisfive> and i too still give you the same question
04:09:28 <psygnisfive> what does that even mean
04:09:30 <oklodol> are a, b and c variables there, or can they just refer to any node in the original string
04:09:33 <oklodol> 's graph
04:09:37 <psygnisfive> oklodol
04:09:41 <psygnisfive> a, b, and c are symbols.
04:09:45 <psygnisfive> in the alphabet.
04:09:50 <psygnisfive> think of it like this
04:09:57 <oklodol> and the graph knows that?
04:10:11 <psygnisfive> the graph doesnt have to
04:10:49 <psygnisfive> because no rule will ever rewrite an alphabet node.
04:11:08 <psygnisfive> it only rewrites the string symbol nodes.
04:11:23 <psygnisfive> just think of it like this oklopol
04:11:32 <psygnisfive> your have one node for every symbol in the alphabet
04:11:43 <psygnisfive> collect all of these nodes at the bottom of your visual picture of the graph
04:11:54 <psygnisfive> above these you have a chain of nodes 1->2->...->n
04:12:06 <psygnisfive> for each symbol in a string
04:12:32 <oklodol> and each has a link to its symbol
04:12:34 <psygnisfive> and from each of these nodes you have an edge pointing to the alphabet symbol node
04:12:48 <oklodol> i know, i read your thing.
04:12:51 <psygnisfive> ok
04:12:55 <psygnisfive> so then why is this confusing?
04:12:57 <oklodol> it's the rewriting i don't understand
04:13:00 <oklodol> well.
04:13:16 <oklodol> kinda hard to explain it :)
04:13:26 <oklodol> wish i could just draw it on paper.
04:13:29 <psygnisfive> thats probably because you dont know what you mean :)
04:13:33 <psygnisfive> ok go and draw it
04:13:37 <oklodol> i know exactly what i mean
04:13:41 <psygnisfive> use an online whiteboard if you want
04:14:01 <psygnisfive> ill gladly watch and tell you you're wrong :p
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04:14:08 <oklodol> that in the rewrite rule, you have to match any two nodes that are connected to each other, and two two certain symbol nodes
04:14:14 <GregorR> WTF XCHAT
04:14:16 <GregorR> WTF
04:14:29 <oklodol> so these symbol nodes need to be named in the rule, they can't just be variables that match any nodes
04:14:41 <psygnisfive> oklopol: what?
04:14:44 <oklodol> because otherwise any two adjacent characters would match any rule of length 2
04:14:52 <psygnisfive> except oklopol
04:14:55 <psygnisfive> in the graphs
04:15:04 <psygnisfive> a and b and so on are not variables
04:15:14 <psygnisfive> they're symbols in the alphabet
04:15:40 <oklodol> ...so 1, 2... are variables in the rewriting system, and a, b... are constants?
04:16:08 <oklodol> i don't care what their semantics are
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04:16:08 <psygnisfive> a and b are the symbols in the alphabet
04:16:13 <oklodol> i mean
04:16:16 <oklodol> there's no alphabet
04:16:21 <Sgeo> Ok, here's my translation of AW into an esolang. I don't have any syntax, because I don't want to steal Active Worlds syntax
04:16:24 <oklodol> i'm asking how the graph rewriting works
04:16:25 <psygnisfive> there IS an alphabet, oklodol
04:16:31 <Sgeo> Objects can have names. Names aren't unique
04:16:38 <oklodol> what are the exact semantics of the graph rewriting
04:16:47 <oklodol> do those consider a and b different from 1 and 2 in the rules
04:16:52 <Sgeo> As an action, an object can set a timer on itself or on objects with a certain name
04:17:10 <psygnisfive> 1 and 2 are just the names for the nodes in the subgraph.
04:17:21 <Sgeo> These timers are the only real way for objects to communicate, other than setting text on them which can serve as output, but cannot be read by objects
04:17:27 <psygnisfive> just like s_1 and s_2 are the names for the symbols in a substring
04:17:38 <oklodol> psygnisfive: just give me the exact graph rewriting semantics, that's the only way
04:17:45 <psygnisfive> i did!
04:17:50 <oklodol> oh.
04:17:53 <psygnisfive> why do you have such a hard time understanding this?
04:18:08 <oklodol> i always do.
04:18:13 <Sgeo> When the timer goes off on an object, it might take an action, such as changing its name or setting a timer
04:18:38 <oklodol> psygnisfive: i mean
04:18:47 <oklodol> i don't see why a and b in the rewriting rules
04:18:48 <Sgeo> Actions might also be triggered by a click, or when the object is created
04:18:52 <Sgeo> What can be done with this?
04:18:53 <oklodol> would only match the nodes a and b
04:18:56 <Sgeo> Is it turing complete?
04:19:01 <oklodol> but the nodes 1 and 2 in the rewriting rules
04:19:03 <oklodol> match any two nodes
04:19:07 <psygnisfive> oklodol
04:19:08 <psygnisfive> what?
04:19:15 <psygnisfive> a and b are nodes.
04:19:22 <Sgeo> I guess no one's noticing me
04:19:34 <oklodol> if nothing matches any two nodes, and not just some named nodes, the amount of nodes will never increase)
04:19:39 <oklodol> *(if
04:19:39 <psygnisfive> 1 and 2 are also nodes, but they're variables not actual nodes
04:19:44 <oklodol> err.
04:19:55 <oklodol> so 1 and 2 are different from a and b, in the rewriting rules?
04:20:17 <psygnisfive> in the same way that s_1 and s_2 are different from a and b in string rewriting rules
04:20:21 <oklodol> the real question: are you leaving some semantics of string rewriting in the graph rewriting stage?
04:20:32 <oklodol> psygnisfive: okay. that's what i asked in the first place
04:20:40 <psygnisfive> oklodol, there is nothing confusing about this
04:20:43 <psygnisfive> just shut up and calculate.
04:20:45 <psygnisfive> stop thinking.
04:20:45 <oklodol> 06:03… oklodol: i mean obviously a, b and c are named nodes there
04:20:45 <oklodol> 06:03… oklodol: and 1, 2 aren't, they're variables
04:20:46 <psygnisfive> theres no thinking.
04:20:57 <psygnisfive> I SAID THEY WERE VARIABLES AGES AGO
04:20:59 <oklodol> you didn't say the rewriting system allows that
04:21:12 <psygnisfive> it allows it in the same way that it allows it in string rewriting
04:21:26 <oklodol> yeah, but you don't need that for getting it tc
04:21:30 <oklodol> so i didn't just assume it.
04:21:38 <oklodol> i asked, you didn't answer
04:21:41 <psygnisfive> you sort of do oklopol
04:21:43 <psygnisfive> when you write a rule like
04:21:45 <psygnisfive> ab -> cc
04:21:55 <psygnisfive> what you're saying is not just ab -> cc
04:22:00 <psygnisfive> what you're saying is really
04:22:22 <psygnisfive> a substring s_1 s_2, where s_1 is an instance of a, and s_2 is an instance of b
04:22:29 <oklodol> so, where did you clearly say a and b are symbols *in the graph rewriting language*?
04:22:33 <psygnisfive> can be replaced with the substrinct s_1 s_2 where s_1 and s_2 are both instances of c
04:23:11 <oklodol> because i thought you were talking about them being symbols in the string rewriting language
04:23:20 <psygnisfive> with strings this doesnt have to be as explicitly stated because a symbol can occur multiple times in a string in any order you want
04:23:40 <psygnisfive> so its like a tuple, or more accurately, a set {(symbol, index), ...}
04:24:00 <Warrigal> Sgeo: say it again so that I can pay attention to you this time.
04:24:01 <oklodol> psygnisfive: yes, i understand all this perfectly.
04:24:07 <psygnisfive> oklodol, the graph language and the string language are identical in some regard.
04:24:16 <psygnisfive> ok so oklopol
04:24:20 <psygnisfive> if you accept that a string can be
04:24:25 <oklodol> psygnisfive: saying that would've made this clear
04:24:28 <psygnisfive> {(1, a), (2, b), ...}
04:24:41 * Warrigal reads what Sgeo's already said instead of waiting for him to say it again
04:24:48 <psygnisfive> notice that this is EXACTLY a subset of the edge set for the equivalent graph
04:25:41 <Warrigal> So objects can have names, names aren't unique, an object can set a timer on itself or on objects with a certain name, these timers are the only way for objects to communicate, and when the timer goes off on an object, it might take an action.
04:25:49 <Warrigal> Precisely what Sgeo said, of course.
04:25:58 <psygnisfive> oklodol: saying so would've restated what should've been obvious :P
04:26:23 <Warrigal> Hmm...
04:26:34 <Sgeo> Objects can also take actions if clicked
04:26:37 <Warrigal> I can see implementing a Minsky machine with that.
04:26:42 <Sgeo> Minsky?
04:26:50 <oklodol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p665516556.txt
04:26:53 <Warrigal> The number of objects named A is the value in register A, etc.
04:27:03 <Sgeo> Can't count number of objects named A
04:27:14 <Warrigal> You don't need to be able to count.
04:27:23 <Warrigal> What you do need to be able to do, however, is decrement...
04:27:36 <Sgeo> Hm
04:27:39 <psygnisfive> "that's ok, I was assuming you had a brain"
04:27:45 <Warrigal> So no, that doesn't work.
04:27:51 <oklodol> psygnisfive: you don't have to explain anymore, i just didn't know you could have both named nodes and variable nodes, because you didn't show that in the rewrite rules in any way
04:28:00 <psygnisfive> oklopol
04:28:07 <Sgeo> You can have individual objects name themselves to something else
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04:28:13 <psygnisfive> you have named symbols and variable symbols in string rewriting.
04:28:14 <Sgeo> But it would be a fixed number that could do that
04:28:39 <Sgeo> I suppose I should describe the actual action line of AW, that might clarify things?
04:28:45 <psygnisfive> i mean, look oklopol
04:28:49 <Sgeo> In an action line, there are triggers for commands
04:28:49 <Warrigal> If you have a bunch of identical objects, can they possibly be distinguished, ever?
04:29:03 <Warrigal> Can you make an arbitrary number of non-identical objects?
04:29:08 <psygnisfive> if you accept that the string "xabx" is really something like {(1, x), (2, a), (3, b), (4, x)}
04:29:11 <Warrigal> If the answer to both of those is no, it's probably not Turing-complete.
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04:29:25 <Sgeo> Technically, in AW, not an arbitrary number, due to space limitations, but let's ignore that
04:29:27 <psygnisfive> then the rewrite rule ab -> cc would be really
04:29:40 <psygnisfive> {(1, a), (2, b)} -> {(1, c), (2, c)}
04:29:48 <Sgeo> identical objects can technically be distinguished, if the viewer can't see some of them
04:30:04 <Warrigal> Then they're not very identical, are they.
04:30:09 <oklodol> psygnisfive: yes, so?
04:30:10 <psygnisfive> but {(1, a), (2, b)} is not a subset of {(1, x), (2, a), (3, b), (4, x)}
04:30:19 <psygnisfive> so how can it match a substring of {(1, x), (2, a), (3, b), (4, x)}?
04:30:19 <Sgeo> Let's ignore that too
04:30:25 <Sgeo> May I describe the action line?
04:30:27 <oklodol> because 1 and 2 are variables
04:30:30 <psygnisfive> exactly
04:30:32 <Warrigal> Ignore that method of distinguishing them?
04:30:33 <oklodol> ...
04:30:37 <psygnisfive> so you had variables in string rewriting already
04:30:37 <Sgeo> triggers are create, activate, bump, and adone
04:30:44 <Sgeo> commands are things like animate
04:30:51 <Sgeo> You might have in an object
04:31:00 <oklodol> psygnisfive: and why the fuck would i assume you assume the semantics from string rewriting stay once you get into the graph rewriting?
04:31:02 <psygnisfive> you just dont SHOW it because its obvious what you mean
04:31:08 <Sgeo> create name a, animate me . 1 1 0; adone visible no
04:31:21 <Warrigal> If you can't have an infinite number of non-identical objects, the only way to store infinite data is in the number of each type of object.
04:31:25 <oklodol> psygnisfive: no it's not.
04:31:27 <oklodol> nothing is obvious.
04:31:39 <Sgeo> That creates a name a, and sets a timer on itself for 0 seconds. When the timer goes off (adone), it goes invisible
04:31:56 <Sgeo> me can be changed to something else to trigger adone on a different object
04:31:56 <psygnisfive> well you would assume that, oklodol, because we're mapping strings to graphs
04:31:58 <Sgeo> Make any sense?
04:32:03 <oklodol> if you write something formal, i will read it formally, you didn't distinguish between the nodes of the rewriting rules, why would i.
04:32:10 <psygnisfive> and matching subgraphs, just like matching substrings, HAS FUCKING VARIABLES
04:32:14 <psygnisfive> it always has
04:32:22 <oklodol> psygnisfive: yes, but it doesn't need to have constants
04:32:32 <oklodol> and when i tried to ask if maybe you have those
04:32:34 <psygnisfive> it has constants only as much as strings have constants.
04:32:35 * Warrigal nods
04:32:40 <oklodol> you just started spouting trivialities
04:32:43 <oklodol> then insulting me
04:33:26 <psygnisfive> if i spout trivialities its because the answers to your questions are trivial.
04:33:36 <oklodol> yeah fuck you too
04:33:42 <oklodol> sleepy time, i got my answer ->
04:33:47 <Sgeo> An arbitrary number of non-identical objects can be made, but not dynamically
04:33:59 <psygnisfive> hey, you're the one who didnt realize i said it has variables even immediately after i fucking said it has variables
04:34:05 <psygnisfive> i cant help it if you're not reading my answers.
04:34:22 <psygnisfive> so dont give me this shit about how im being an asshole.
04:34:48 <psygnisfive> i mean, we're talking about graph rewriting, oklopol
04:34:58 <psygnisfive> ofcourse it has pattern matching with variables
04:35:03 <psygnisfive> why? because its graph rewriting!
04:35:08 <psygnisfive> any rewriting system has this
04:41:04 <psygnisfive> there i've changed it for you oklopol
04:42:02 <oklodol> yeah like i could sleep
04:42:04 <oklodol> :P
04:42:23 <oklodol> fucking log link
04:42:32 <psygnisfive> ?
04:42:34 <oklodol> like i'm not pissed off enough
04:42:49 <Sgeo> Warrigal, so, this means no turing completeness?
04:42:55 <psygnisfive> breathe, oklodol. this is nothing to be pissed off about
04:43:05 <Warrigal> Sgeo: sounds likely.
04:43:14 <Sgeo> What can be done?
04:43:20 <Sgeo> BRB
04:43:21 -!- oklodol has set topic: logs >>> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ <<< seriously, i want them here..
04:44:46 <psygnisfive> oklodol
04:44:53 <psygnisfive> does the new version satisfy you?
04:46:04 <oklodol> psygnisfive: what new version?
04:46:08 <psygnisfive> i told you
04:46:13 <psygnisfive> i rewrote the proof for you.
04:46:23 <oklodol> and yes, it's definitely something to be pissed about
04:46:30 <psygnisfive> no, its really not
04:46:34 <oklodol> you were quite directly calling me an idiot
04:47:02 <psygnisfive> because you were being one.
04:47:07 <oklodol> after fucking writing a formal reduction, and then assuming "obvious" things.
04:47:15 <oklodol> psygnisfive: relink
04:47:23 <oklodol> wait no need
04:47:29 <Sgeo> Warrigal, I think I have a way to decrement
04:47:38 <psygnisfive> i assumed nothing more than what was already assumed by the fact that were talking about graph rewriting
04:47:48 <psygnisfive> which already assumes pattern matching
04:47:56 <Sgeo> Have a bunch of objects, one named d0, one named d1, one named d2
04:48:11 <Sgeo> Each one can... hm, n/m
04:48:57 <Sgeo> Actually
04:49:42 <oklodol> psygnisfive: yes, but it doesn't necessarily need anything but variables. which is why i asked whether there were constants. you didn't answer, so really, maybe i was ignorant of how graph rewriting works outside the eso community, but i definitely wasn't an idiot.
04:49:49 <oklodol> because of that.
04:49:58 <psygnisfive> ofcourse it requires constants, oklodol
04:50:02 <oklodol> no it doesn't
04:50:16 <psygnisfive> well, graph rewriting in general doesnt, no.
04:50:34 <psygnisfive> but thats really irrelevant.
04:51:30 <oklodol> yes, the only thing that's relevant is i can't sleep because i'm so fucking pissed :D
04:51:50 <psygnisfive> masturbate to thoughts of hurting me.
04:51:53 <Sgeo> Each object can have a certain set of actions happen when the timer goes off, but only one set of actions can be specified
04:51:54 <oklodol> and really, it doesn't matter how many times you tell me i really was an idiot
04:52:03 <oklodol> i do not agree
04:52:06 <oklodol> and i just get more pissed
04:52:15 <psygnisfive> you're an idiot
04:52:15 <psygnisfive> you're an idiot
04:52:16 <psygnisfive> you're an idiot
04:52:18 <psygnisfive> you're an idiot
04:52:20 <psygnisfive> you're an idiot
04:52:30 <psygnisfive> now go jerk off to fantasies of smacking me.
04:52:33 <psygnisfive> we'll both me pleased.
04:52:38 <psygnisfive> be*
04:53:00 <Sgeo> I mean, even with the same name, different objects can have different actions
04:53:08 <Sgeo> But that doesn't really help, does it Warrigal?
04:53:08 <oklodol> glah. i need to see a shrink
04:53:12 <psygnisfive> no
04:53:17 <psygnisfive> you need to jerk off to fantasies of abusing me.
04:53:50 <oklodol> i can't. because i can't do anything. because i'm so fucking pissed.
04:53:56 <oklodol> :D
04:54:09 <oklodol> irc is fun
04:54:27 <psygnisfive> irc irks?
04:54:43 <psygnisfive> vox vexes?
04:55:30 <oklodol> well, you irk, irc just makes it harder to do anything about it.
04:55:46 <psygnisfive> i speak nothing but the truth!
04:56:06 <psygnisfive> if it irks you, then the truth irks you, not me!
04:56:57 <oklodol> no.
04:57:02 <psygnisfive> :3
04:57:18 <oklodol> you're an idiot and i'm ignoring you for... 5 minutes.
04:57:25 <psygnisfive> lol
04:57:34 <psygnisfive> OOOOH YOU MAKE ME SO PISSED
04:57:34 <Sgeo> Warrigal, awake?
04:57:35 <psygnisfive> :P
04:57:37 <oklodol> can't do longer than that before i'll read logs anyway.
04:57:49 <oklodol> Sgeo: so. i think i could try to read your thing now :P
04:57:52 -!- Corun has left (?).
04:58:01 <Warrigal> Sgeo: I think so.
04:58:10 <oklodol> can result in long mental ignores when i lose my calm.
04:59:15 <Sgeo> If you want the most accurate description, try http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Object_Scripting
04:59:20 <Sgeo> I want to make an esolang out of it
05:03:15 <Sgeo> http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Animate is the timer and inter-object interaction I was referring to
05:05:11 <oklodol> maybe i should just give up and start reading my book or something
05:05:25 <oklodol> i mean i could sleep only for like 4 hours anyway
05:10:37 <oklodol> Sgeo: so what would the primitives+semantics be then?
05:10:58 <Sgeo> primitives would be objects
05:11:19 <Sgeo> Semantics would be AWish
05:11:46 <Sgeo> Well, the sign command would display output
05:12:21 <psygnisfive> oklopol: read The Spartans
05:12:25 <psygnisfive> or Guns, Germs, and Steel
05:12:27 <psygnisfive> or Collapse
05:12:36 <Sgeo> Just don't want to copy AW syntax, since I'd like something workable by sane people
05:13:27 <oklodol> how's that a way to make an esolang, making things saner?
05:15:03 <Sgeo> I mean, unless you want code like
05:15:15 <Sgeo> create animate me . 1 1 0, astart
05:15:18 <Sgeo> <newline newline>
05:15:22 <Sgeo> some more stuff
05:15:45 <Sgeo> In an esolang, it should not be animate me
05:15:48 <Sgeo> probably
05:17:58 <Sgeo> And the esolang should be easier to write in than AW
05:21:08 <Sgeo> Bye all
05:21:09 <oklodol> well i didn't really read that link, so i'm not sure what animate me is.
05:21:12 <oklodol> oh
05:21:13 <oklodol> well bye
05:21:26 <Sgeo> oklodol, animate me sets the timer on the object
05:21:39 <Sgeo> animate a would set a timer on all objects named "a"
05:21:48 <Sgeo> What happens after is specified by the receiving object's adone
05:22:00 <oklodol> rught
05:22:02 <oklodol> *right
05:22:08 <Sgeo> Thing is, the syntax of AW's animate is ugly
05:22:14 <oklodol> and that callback is what, like a function?
05:22:21 <Sgeo> It's a trigger
05:22:34 <oklodol> what's a trigger
05:22:53 <Sgeo> create, activate, bump, and adone are triggers. you might have create sign hi
05:22:55 <Sgeo> For example
05:23:09 <Sgeo> which means as soon as the object comes into view, it's a sign with the text "hi"
05:23:24 <Sgeo> adone is a trigger like create, but it comes into play when the timer goes off
05:23:48 <Sgeo> Thing is, the animate syntax has stuff that's not relevent to an esolang
05:23:55 <Sgeo> animate me 1 1 1000
05:24:04 <Sgeo> The 1 and 1 refer to frame stuff
05:24:17 <Sgeo> 1000 is the time in miliseconds
05:25:40 <oklodol> delays would make a cool way to do control flow
05:26:28 <Sgeo> The delay can be 0
05:26:51 <Sgeo> and animate is the only meaningful way for objects to interact with eachother
05:27:04 <Sgeo> I mean, objects can make other objects signs, but for our purposes that's not interaction
05:28:11 <oklodol> psygnisfive: i don't read fiction
05:28:22 <psygnisfive> ey?
05:28:25 <psygnisfive> they're not fiction
05:28:38 <psygnisfive> The Spartans is a history of Sparta
05:28:38 <oklodol> oh. assumed they were
05:28:42 <oklodol> ah
05:28:56 <oklodol> well history not so much.
05:29:13 <psygnisfive> Guns, Germs, and Steel is a book about large-scale historical trends, namely why European nations went on to conquer the world and become enormously powerful and wealthy but noone else did
05:29:20 <oklodol> i consider it fiction that is considered to actually have happened, which is worse than just fiction
05:29:27 <psygnisfive> and Collapse is about why some societies face severe decline while others dont
05:29:36 <psygnisfive> faced*/didn't*
05:29:38 <oklodol> because the reality isn't that interesting
05:29:41 <oklodol> hmm
05:29:58 <oklodol> well. collapse might work.
05:30:05 <psygnisfive> GGS is good too
05:30:08 <oklodol> i'm all for stuff that's abstract
05:30:15 <psygnisfive> you can actually watch a show version of it
05:30:17 <oklodol> having to do with europe is a big minus
05:30:28 <psygnisfive> well, its not so much having to do with europe
05:30:33 <psygnisfive> its more having to do with the WORLD
05:30:49 <psygnisfive> and the fact of the world is that european culture is so and so while others arent
05:30:59 <oklodol> well that's not really my thing, i prefer theoretical worlds
05:31:05 <psygnisfive> most of the thing is about OTHER societies and why they couldn't rise to be enormously powerful
05:31:10 <oklodol> but i might enjoy it, hard to say not having read it.
05:31:21 <oklodol> that's always a problem with everything
05:31:22 <psygnisfive> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgnmT-Y_rGQ
05:31:22 <Sgeo> g2g
05:31:25 <psygnisfive> part 1 of the video version
05:31:28 <oklodol> bye Sgeo
05:31:33 <psygnisfive> its only 3 hours long so
05:31:34 <Sgeo> Bye
05:32:06 <oklodol> psygnisfive: well. k that does sound interesting.
05:32:41 <oklodol> it's just usually things other than math rarely say anything i don't consider trivial
05:32:55 <psygnisfive> :p
05:33:14 <psygnisfive> or the Collapse talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmZqW_xh_eA
05:34:13 <oklodol> i mean there are interesting things to be said about all subjects, and of course authors have something to say, otherwise they wouldn't have written the book; it's just most of it is just build-up
05:34:17 <oklodol> you can't do that with math
05:34:32 <psygnisfive> oklodol, one thing im really interested in doing is like creating a mathematical history
05:34:33 <psygnisfive> like
05:34:37 <oklodol> if there's no content, the reader will actually notice
05:34:47 <psygnisfive> a model of historical change thats almost mathematical in nature
05:35:00 <psygnisfive> i think thats sort of Jared Diamonds idea
05:35:07 <psygnisfive> (hes the guy who wrote GGS and Collapse)
05:35:40 <oklodol> well i like (formalizing all things) equally
05:35:46 <psygnisfive> :)
05:35:50 <oklodol> wait.
05:35:51 <psygnisfive> i REALLY want to formalize memetics
05:36:02 <oklodol> that grouping might be a bit wrong there.
05:36:11 <psygnisfive> yes it is ;)
05:36:14 <oklodol> blah. i'm so fucking tired
05:36:24 * psygnisfive pets oklodol
05:36:57 <oklodol> could you explain what the difference between the two parsings is
05:37:10 <oklodol> i mean
05:37:16 <psygnisfive> sure
05:37:21 <oklodol> god i'm in such a coma.
05:37:24 <psygnisfive> the difference is that yours is unparsable :)
05:37:44 <oklodol> for all things, the amount of how much i like to formalize them is the same
05:37:51 <psygnisfive> :p
05:37:53 <oklodol> and not that i like (formalizing things equally)
05:38:05 <psygnisfive> lol
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05:38:34 <oklodol> just thought that might require clearing up, ended up sticking parens in random places and confusing the whole world.
05:39:13 <oklodol> but, anyway
05:39:34 <oklodol> i'm not actually going to read those books, even though i don't have anything against reading the latter two in principle
05:40:00 <oklodol> there's enough stuff to read about the things i actually care about
05:42:29 <oklodol> also i'm much less pissed. which is good. i should stop ircing, it's dangerous.
05:43:36 <oklodol> also i should get something to drink, and start reading
05:43:48 <oklodol> this has been a pretty pointless night : D
05:43:49 <oklodol> ->
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08:33:22 <Mony> hi
08:34:19 <psygnisfive> as i said, the relevant relations in modern binding theory in minimalism atleast are coreference and c-command
08:34:23 <psygnisfive> whoops
08:34:24 <psygnisfive> D:
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12:35:03 <oklodol> o
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14:03:31 <ehird> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++[-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+.
14:03:31 <fungot> ab
14:03:48 <ehird> yessssssssssssssss, it worked
14:20:08 <puzzlet> why the loop?
14:20:18 <ehird> puzzlet: to delay it while I disconnected/reconnecte
14:20:19 <ehird> d
14:20:28 <ehird> I found a bug in my IRC client's bouncer quicklog processing code.
14:20:35 <ehird> ^ jargon for the sake of it
14:20:39 <ehird> So I had to disconnect before it replied.
14:20:51 <puzzlet> k
14:37:34 <KingOfKarlsruhe> fungot: int main(void)
14:37:35 <fungot> KingOfKarlsruhe: and granted p5 isn't as elegant as haskell or ocaml's versions.) both can accept optional trailing step arguments through ( by step).
14:38:00 <KingOfKarlsruhe> fungot: show tables;
14:38:01 <fungot> KingOfKarlsruhe: for some x y. you cannot modify a variable i starting at 0 ( and both variables hold the same value); ( :range variable (index index-variable)), which is implemented
14:38:10 <ehird> ^style
14:38:11 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
14:38:16 <ehird> ^style darwin
14:38:16 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
14:38:23 <ehird> fungot:
14:38:23 <fungot> ehird: my dear lyell, yours gratefully, charles darwin.
14:40:18 <ehird> ^style fisher
14:40:19 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
14:40:22 <ehird> ah.
14:40:26 <ehird> fungot: *BEEP*
14:40:26 <fungot> ehird: ( ( i don't noise lately noise i haven't
14:40:36 <ehird> ^style ss
14:40:36 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
14:40:38 <ehird> ^style pa
14:40:38 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
14:40:46 <ehird> (sorry, fungot, but your style names are confusing)
14:40:46 <fungot> ehird: what are dante's guns called again?
14:40:51 <ehird> fungot: x
14:40:52 <fungot> ehird: that depends. how much do you have any big plans for sunday? someone else go. doom 3 comes out tomorrow.
14:41:01 <ehird> I think it's basically going verbatim here.
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16:38:36 <ehird> wow this code would make AnMaster squirm
16:38:45 <AnMaster> oh?
16:38:48 <AnMaster> what code
16:39:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Here's the first part of it.
16:39:38 <ehird> #define pp(x,t) (fpp(stdout, t, x))
16:39:39 <ehird> #define fpp(s,t,x) (_fpp((s), ((void *)(x)), (#t), (#x)))
16:39:41 <ehird> void _fpp(FILE *, void *, char *, const char *);
16:39:49 <AnMaster> ehird, where is it from?
16:39:56 <ehird> Old code I wrote.
16:40:06 <AnMaster> ehird, IOCCC?
16:40:12 <AnMaster> well not that much
16:40:18 <ehird> Nah, it actually does something useful.
16:40:23 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? What?
16:40:24 <ehird> I'll pastie the actual .c
16:40:29 <AnMaster> nice
16:40:45 <ehird> http://pastie.org/private/kkghpnoxj3g4sn6hgjotla That header part + this. It's a debug prettyprinter
16:40:47 <ehird> Use like:
16:40:57 <ehird> pp(thing, type)
16:41:00 <ehird> e.g. pp(3, int)
16:41:04 <ehird> pp("hello world", char *)
16:41:07 <ehird> outputs, I think:
16:41:09 <ehird> 3 = 3
16:41:09 <ehird> and
16:41:13 <AnMaster> where are those defines you pasted?
16:41:14 <AnMaster> in here
16:41:17 <ehird> "hello world" = hello world
16:41:22 <ehird> AnMaster: in the header file libstuff.h
16:41:25 <AnMaster> ah
16:41:34 <ehird> you can also do e.g.
16:41:35 <ehird> pp(2+2, int)
16:41:37 <ehird> and it'd output
16:41:41 <ehird> 2+2 = 4
16:42:00 <AnMaster> ehird, to me it looks like you are basically re-implementing fprintf with an alternative syntax
16:42:03 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr.
16:42:08 <ehird> AnMaster: no.
16:42:13 <ehird> It prints out the expression.
16:42:17 <AnMaster> hm
16:42:20 <ehird> I didn't want the type argument at first
16:42:24 <AnMaster> ah quite cool code
16:42:24 <ehird> But I think typeof failed somehow
16:42:42 <ehird> It was to feed my 'print debugging' habit. :P
16:42:53 <AnMaster> hrrm if gcc you could get rid of the type argument by using typeof(), but it didn't work?
16:42:54 <AnMaster> huh
16:43:05 <ehird> I'll add in typeof and see what breaks
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16:43:11 <ehird> Assuming this code compiles.
16:43:13 <AnMaster> also typeof() isn't a good thing in a portable project of course
16:43:20 <AnMaster> but that may not be your goal
16:43:21 <ehird> #ifndef __GNUC__
16:43:21 <ehird> # error libstuff is only tested with gcc, proceed at your own risk.
16:43:23 <ehird> :P
16:43:33 <AnMaster> ehird, heh, what does this libstuff actually do?
16:43:42 <ehird> It was just a random collection of shtuff.
16:43:50 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and you know ICC and several other ones define __GNUC__
16:43:53 <ehird> Like #define streq(x,y) (strcmp((x), (y)) == 0)
16:43:56 <ehird> AnMaster: that's their problem
16:44:08 <AnMaster> ehird, hah it was me that said that some time ago to you
16:44:10 <AnMaster> about clang
16:44:35 <ehird> AnMaster: actually, I agree with myself there
16:44:46 <ehird> it's needed, practically, but it's their problem if something breaks
16:44:59 <ehird> % ./example
16:45:00 <ehird> zsh: bus error ./example
16:45:01 <ehird> huh.
16:45:06 <AnMaster> ehird, also that streq, can't see how it differs from a plain if (!strcmp(x, y))
16:45:15 <ehird> AnMaster: it doesn't , it's just sugar
16:45:18 <AnMaster> ah right
16:45:33 <AnMaster> ehird, bus error?
16:45:33 <AnMaster> wtf
16:45:36 <ehird> AnMaster: segfault
16:45:40 <AnMaster> ah
16:45:45 <AnMaster> err not exactly
16:45:48 <ehird> ALTERNATIVELY: the programmer was run over by a bus
16:45:51 <AnMaster> SIGBUS != SIGSEGV
16:46:00 <AnMaster> both exist and are separate
16:46:10 <ehird> it's SIGSEGV, i think.
16:46:10 <AnMaster> though SIGBUS is extremely rare on x86
16:46:16 <ehird> Think it's a Darwin thing.
16:46:19 <AnMaster> ah
16:46:20 <ehird> or BSD
16:46:29 <ehird> or zhs
16:46:30 <ehird> *zsh
16:46:38 <AnMaster> well I have seen SIGBUS on some non-x86 systems, think it was an ALPHA or MIPS or such
16:46:53 <AnMaster> but never on x86
16:47:01 <ehird> wonder why this is segfaulting
16:47:07 <AnMaster> ehird, try gdb?
16:47:17 <ehird> I think gcc expands typeof at cpp time, right?
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16:47:37 <AnMaster> ehird, err I think it ends up as __builtin_typeof, but I may be wrong
16:47:42 <AnMaster> so probably at compiling stage
16:47:48 <AnMaster> but not at runtime indeed
16:47:50 <AnMaster> afaik
16:47:59 <AnMaster> but I may be wrong
16:48:05 <ehird> ((_fpp(((&__sF[1])), ((void *)( "hello world")), (# typeof(("hello world"))), (# "hello world"))));
16:48:09 <ehird> XD
16:48:18 <ehird> That's some ugly expansion.
16:48:22 <AnMaster> agreed
16:48:32 <AnMaster> and I don't even plan to try to make sense of it
16:48:32 <AnMaster> also
16:48:57 <AnMaster> typeof(("hello world")) <-- 1) no idea if the extra () affects it, probably not, 2) the type would be const * char I think
16:49:09 <ehird> ah, probably the const tripped things up
16:49:41 <ehird> Hm, some PHP I wrote semi-recently. Why did I do that?
16:50:10 <AnMaster> ehird, that is why using -Wwrite-strings is a good idea, since all compiler and the C spec (even C89 iirc) say that using char * foo = "my string constant"; is deprecated
16:50:16 <AnMaster> should be const char * foo
16:50:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, but nobody really cares.
16:50:31 <ehird> I sure don't.
16:50:47 <AnMaster> ehird, well, you can run into issues with it, like if you try to modify that char*
16:50:55 <ehird> Solution: don't do that.
16:51:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm all for being able to find issues at compile time rather than runtime :)
16:51:24 <ehird> C is not exactly the language for that.
16:51:30 <AnMaster> true
16:51:41 <AnMaster> you probably want ADA for it or some language like that
16:51:48 <ehird> Or haskell.
16:52:08 <AnMaster> indeed. Oh and I started a bit, but I had so much to do, but I'm in no hurry
16:53:00 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway your debugging formatting code is an interesting idea
16:53:25 <ehird> ooh, an unfinished interpreter.
16:53:33 * ehird is rummaging thru ~/Code
16:53:36 <AnMaster> ehird, for what lang, in what lang?
16:53:44 <AnMaster> heh I use ~/src
16:53:46 <ehird> Own invention, in C.
16:54:09 <ehird> wasn't a very good one though.
16:54:14 <AnMaster> heh
16:54:19 <AnMaster> esolang?
16:54:21 <ehird> Specifically: it didn't work.
16:54:23 <ehird> AnMaster: nah
16:54:33 <AnMaster> ok, what type of lang then?
16:54:45 <ehird> Kind of like Ruby, but smaller and more consistent.
16:55:03 <AnMaster> a pitty it didn't work then
16:55:24 <ehird> I should have specced it and let the HUGE OPEN SOURCE COMMUNITY write the implementation for me.
16:55:49 <AnMaster> ehird, for that to work you need to make your 0.0.1 yourself first
16:56:03 <ehird> $ cat main.c \n int main() { return 0; }
16:56:04 <ehird> done
16:56:09 <AnMaster> haha
16:56:25 <ehird> Hm, a tcl-alike.
16:57:05 <ehird> Agh, I really want to finish that sometime
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16:57:13 <ehird> (C program in, graph of function calls and other flow out.)
16:58:28 <AnMaster> TCL-like!?
16:58:30 <AnMaster> wtf
16:58:35 <ehird> er
16:58:38 <ehird> that was two seperate things
16:58:39 <AnMaster> tcl is like php...
16:58:44 <ehird> what
16:58:46 <ehird> no it is not..
16:58:52 <AnMaster> ehird, as in "horrible"
16:58:53 <AnMaster> IMO
16:59:02 <ehird> AnMaster: maybe you haven't looked in to it
16:59:04 <ehird> it's quite elegant.
16:59:16 <ehird> see http://antirez.com/articoli/tclmisunderstood.html
16:59:20 <AnMaster> ehird, oh yes I have, for eggdrop thing
16:59:29 <ehird> eggdrop is horrible _in general_
16:59:33 <AnMaster> indeed
16:59:36 <ehird> you can make any language awful
16:59:52 <ehird> also interesting: http://antirez.com/page/picol.html tcl in 100 lines of c
17:00:25 <AnMaster> <ehird> see http://antirez.com/articoli/tclmisunderstood.html <-- times out
17:00:30 <ehird> hmm ditto.
17:00:39 <ehird> Solution:
17:00:43 <AnMaster> both of them do
17:00:51 <ehird> sec
17:01:03 <Asztal_> http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fantirez.com%2Farticoli%2Ftclmisunderstood.html&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:hu:official&client=firefox-a
17:01:09 <ehird> yeah
17:01:09 <ehird> :P
17:01:45 <ehird> http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:wCtmFEnuu0MJ:antirez.com/page/picol.html+http://antirez.com/page/picol.html&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1 ah, actually 550 lines
17:01:46 <ehird> still impressive
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17:02:19 <AnMaster> ehird, bbl food is ready
17:10:20 <AnMaster> ehird, hm about tcl, it has certain similarities to shell scripting, the "command space parameter space parameter..." bit for example, and yes there are more langs than shell and tcl that use that
17:10:33 <AnMaster> however I don't think that looks good
17:10:45 <AnMaster> it may be practical and work well, but it is ugly
17:10:47 * ehird facepalm.
17:10:52 <ehird> It's not conceptually ugly.
17:10:57 <ehird> The whole program is a single Tcl list.
17:11:05 <AnMaster> ehird, well the beauty is in the eye of the beholder
17:11:09 <AnMaster> and that sounds nice
17:12:59 <AnMaster> also another thing I dislike about shell scripting, and php, and also tcl: using $ prefix for variables. Sure it makes it less ambiguous and probably easier to parse. But it makes the code look messy
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17:13:24 <ehird> tcl doesn't look messy. Also, $a just parses to [set a].
17:13:29 <ehird> Which you could use if you wanted.
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17:23:13 <AnMaster> ehird, after reading that article: Yes TCL has certain nice points, but 1) it seems to be unable to do syntax checking in advance, due to the "proc unknown" thing 2) I *do* think it looks a bit messy, but of course that is subjective 3) due to the negative attitude attached to it saying you use TCL would be _somewhat_ like saying "I code in COBOL", and it isn't very popular, smaller user base, less co
17:23:14 <AnMaster> mmunity
17:23:34 <ehird> 1) That is irrelevant to syntax.
17:23:46 <ehird> 3) No, that's ridiculous, not everyone has stupid blanket opinions. additionally:
17:23:55 <ehird> http://wiki.tcl.tk/
17:23:59 <ehird> there's your vibrant community
17:24:29 <AnMaster> 1) How do you mean? Doesn't proc unknown allow you to do much the same as non-clean lisp macros?
17:24:56 <ehird> 1. Not really. It's just called when a non-bound function is called.
17:25:17 <AnMaster> hm ok
17:26:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well in certain aspects tcl is like a lisp without parentheses(spelling?) and with a bit of syntax,
17:26:51 <AnMaster> and then I would rather just use lisp
17:26:52 <AnMaster> :)
17:27:02 <ehird> It's imperative, not functional.
17:28:21 <AnMaster> true, but in many other aspects it is close, such as everything being a list, powerful redefining of internal structures, like the example of proc repeat in that article
17:28:33 <AnMaster> I can easily imagine that as a lisp macro
17:28:37 <AnMaster> quite close
17:30:29 <AnMaster> it also reminds me of bash in certain ways
17:30:32 <AnMaster> set a pu
17:30:33 <AnMaster> set b ts
17:30:33 <AnMaster> $a$b "Hello World"
17:30:40 <AnMaster> something very similar would work in bash
17:30:55 <ehird> yes.
17:32:32 <AnMaster> to me it seems like a mix of shell and lisp
17:33:10 <AnMaster> that reminds me... I remember reading about a functional shell some time ago
17:33:15 * AnMaster looks around
17:33:59 <AnMaster> nop can't find it
17:45:36 <AnMaster> sigh, I so dislike when random newbies /msg random people
17:45:42 <AnMaster> *especially* if that one is me
17:45:54 <AnMaster> being msged that is of course
17:45:58 <ehird> Who?
17:46:46 <AnMaster> ehird, some newb in ##linux first asked if anyone was there (in an active channel with around 800 users, and several people had already spoken after he/she joined)
17:47:05 <AnMaster> then he/she did some random /msg to some people in there, including me
17:47:13 <ehird> Ooh, the original otpbot
17:47:19 <AnMaster> ehird, hm?
17:47:23 <ehird> Be prepared for a TOPIC CELLULAR AUTOMATA
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17:47:30 <AnMaster> oh no
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17:47:42 <AnMaster> ehird, what one is it?
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17:47:46 <ehird> AnMaster: not sure.
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17:47:50 <ehird> the tc one I think.
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17:47:57 <ehird> best viewed with a wide client :P
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17:48:11 <ehird> pretttttttyyyyyyyyyyyy
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17:48:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I it is multi-line here
17:48:20 <AnMaster> and
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17:48:25 <AnMaster> please turn if off soon
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17:48:35 <ehird> AnMaster: i'll turn it off when people start talking
17:48:36 <ehird> :P
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17:48:40 <AnMaster> well
17:48:42 <AnMaster> I'm talking
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17:48:48 <ehird> yeah but
17:48:48 <Badger> I might be talking.
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17:48:51 <ehird> you don't count. :o
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17:48:55 <KingOfKarlsruhe> me2
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17:48:56 <Badger> :o
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17:48:59 <AnMaster> sigh
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17:49:03 <ehird> you all suck ass.
17:49:07 <Badger> no u
17:49:08 <Asztal_> Badgers can't talk :(
17:49:15 <Badger> Asztal_: prove it.
17:49:22 <Badger> go up to one and ask it.
17:49:40 <Asztal_> I will
17:49:43 <AnMaster> if he decides to answer you, he might not want to
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17:50:00 <ehird> yep, that was 110
17:50:03 <AnMaster> as far as I know they are like to be quiet
17:50:12 <ehird> http://pastie.org/349088.txt?key=j3sdlyntj4fyl1kmorbag
17:50:13 <ehird> triangles
17:51:01 <AnMaster> ehird, is 110 tc?
17:51:08 <ehird> that one is
17:51:30 <AnMaster> hm?
17:52:03 <AnMaster> ehird, what was the previous topic?
17:52:08 <ehird> wat
17:52:15 <AnMaster> before it changed topic
17:52:18 <AnMaster> what was the topic then
17:52:23 <ehird> who cares
17:52:28 <ehird> the current topic has the logs and Xs and _s
17:52:31 <ehird> what more do you want
17:52:43 <AnMaster> ehird, well tomorrow I'll want "happy new year"
17:52:45 <AnMaster> or something like that
17:52:54 <ehird> you mean in two days.
17:53:09 <AnMaster> ehird, hm?
17:53:15 <AnMaster> it is 31 tomorrow
17:53:17 <ehird> yes.
17:53:21 <ehird> new years is 1 jan.
17:53:25 <ehird> so two days.
17:53:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well no, because I think we should go on the Australia timezone
17:53:54 <AnMaster> which will be way earlier than here
17:53:57 <ehird> #EINA
17:54:01 <AnMaster> EINA?
17:54:15 <ehird> #esoteric Is Not Agora
17:54:27 <AnMaster> ehird, err you didn't act like that yesterday
17:54:33 <AnMaster> also, what has agora got to do with it?
17:54:43 <ehird> Agora celebrates its birthday in the australian timezone.
17:54:49 <ehird> Also, #esoteric is esotermic.
17:55:09 <AnMaster> ok, so what about NZ?
17:55:23 <ehird> What about nz?
17:55:29 <AnMaster> because we shouldn't be UK centric, that makes no sense
17:55:42 <ehird> AnMaster: UTC centric makes sense.
17:56:19 <AnMaster> ehird, for new year it makes sense to celebrate it at the point where it first happens, which isn't even NZ iirc but another hour or so before that
17:56:28 * AnMaster looks on a map
17:56:36 <ehird> No, it makes sense to celebrate it when it happens where you are.
17:56:45 <AnMaster> true
17:56:54 <ehird> Also, that's gregorian-centric.
17:56:55 <AnMaster> but the channel isn't in any specific place
17:57:03 <ehird> Exactly, so we default to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time
17:57:15 <ehird> Just like we default to English.
17:57:52 <AnMaster> ehird, idea: Use same timezone as that of the first freenode server to enter the new year
17:58:00 <ehird> lame idea. :P
17:58:05 <AnMaster> I think there is one in Australia
18:11:50 <ehird> awk: syntax error at source line 1 source file quine.awk
18:11:50 <ehird> context is
18:11:52 <ehird> >>> awk: <<<
18:11:54 <ehird> awk: bailing out at source line 5
18:33:27 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr.
18:37:26 <ehird> WTFCODE
18:37:44 <ehird> http://pastie.org/private/kihnzfgeiwl79gzu0faa
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19:10:23 <ehird> 08:47:48 <Deewiant> fizzie: no, tail reads all the input into a red-black tree ndexed by line number, then when it hits EOF it repeatedly gets the lowest key,
19:10:23 <ehird> checks whether it's in the requested range to be printed, and prints it if so
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19:30:47 <oerjan> <ehird> the tc one I think.
19:31:01 <oerjan> nope, that is rule 30, which is not known to be tc
19:31:05 <ehird> hm ok
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19:31:14 <oerjan> (or so i think from the logs, it's definitely not 110)
19:31:36 <ehird> it has triangles
19:31:44 <oerjan> it might be, but it's reversible so trying random fields gives you no hints of gliders like 110 does
19:32:01 <ehird> mm
19:32:03 <oerjan> because reversible means random -> random, really
19:32:41 <oerjan> and also you would have to implement one of the reversible tc versions i guess
19:34:15 <oerjan> rule 110 triangles are not symmetric, but right-angled
19:42:19 <oerjan> what we need is a list of countries by timezone, then each hour we select one randomly in the timezone currently entering new year and put it in the topic.
19:42:33 <ehird> lol
19:42:42 <oerjan> so HAPPY NEW YEAR TONGA etc.
19:42:50 <oerjan> (not sure if that's the first one or last one)
19:45:03 <oerjan> ^ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()!()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^()!(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^()S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))()!~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
19:45:04 <fungot> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^:^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^^^^^:^^^:^^^:^^^^^::^^^^^:^::::^^^^^:::^^^^^::::^^:^^^:^^^:::^:^^:::^^^:::^^:::^::^^:::^::::^^^^:^^^:^::^^^^^::^^:^::^^^::^^:^^^::^^:::^:::^^^:^^^:^^:::^:^^^^^:^^:^:^^^^^:^:^^^::^^::^^:^^^:^^^^::^ ...too much output!
19:45:14 <oerjan> oops
19:45:34 <oerjan> ^ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()!()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^()!(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))()!~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
19:45:35 <fungot> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^^^^^ :^^^:^^^:^^^^^::^^^^^:^::::^^^^^:::^^^^^:::: ^^:^^^:^^^:::^:^^:::^^^:::^^:::^::^^:::^:::: ^^^^:^^^:^::^^^^^::^^:^::^^^::^^:^^^::^^:::^ :::^^^:^^^:^^:::^:^^^^^:^^:^:^^^^^:^:^^^::^^ ::^^:^^^: ...too much output!
19:45:49 <oerjan> that's 110
19:50:03 <oerjan> ^help
19:50:03 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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20:50:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, there? Any progress on jitfunge?
20:54:34 <oerjan> it won't progress until the very last minute. that much should be obvious.
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21:37:28 <ehird> ok
21:37:28 <ehird> oklo
21:37:28 <ehird> oplo
21:37:28 <ehird> ...
21:37:28 <ehird> where is he
21:37:28 <oerjan> oh dear
22:02:48 <oerjan> 07:42:48 --- quit: oklodol (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:02:48 <ehird> what's that in utc
22:02:48 <oerjan> argh
22:02:48 <oerjan> why the heck don't the logs use utc
22:04:49 <ehird> cause they're shit
22:04:49 <oerjan> also, clog just stopped logging it seems
22:04:49 <oerjan> ok tunes 12:54 = my 21:54 = utc 20:54
22:04:49 <oerjan> so add 8
22:04:49 <ehird> so, around 16:00
22:04:49 <ehird> also, no logging because:
22:04:49 <ehird> 21:21 <Bouncer> <christel> [Global Notice] Hi all, It would appear one of our US client servers have fallen off the edge of the discwo^H^H^H^H^H^Hinternet and all but vanished! We're looking into the issue now and hope to have it back soon. Affected users ~3K. Apologies for the inconvenience and thank you for flying freenode!
22:04:49 <oerjan> with the exception that clog is actually still in the channel
22:04:49 <ehird> i think that's an oddity of the problem
22:04:49 <ehird> but if clog is down, sweet, now I can take over the lucrative #esoteric logging market
22:04:49 <oerjan> you should be able to make thousands of esodollars in profit
22:04:49 <ehird> yes
22:04:49 <ehird> woah, I have so much stuff in ~ that software trying to traverse it all crashes
22:04:49 <AnMaster> hm interesting mediawiki hack: http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Template:2008/Donate-header (see http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Template:2008/Donate-header&action=edit for the source)
22:04:49 <AnMaster> didn't know you could do that kind of stuff with mediawiki
22:04:49 <ehird> AnMaster: i'd really fucking prefer they didn't
22:04:49 <ehird> god those ads on wikipedia are so annoying
22:04:49 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I agree
22:04:49 <ehird> especially when it randomly switches to RED BORDER MODE
22:04:49 <AnMaster> ehird, but that was not ads, but fund raising pages
22:04:49 <ehird> yes
22:04:49 <AnMaster> ehird, red border mode?
22:04:49 <AnMaster> I don't see any red borders
22:04:49 <ehird> AnMaster: they randomly switch between them
22:04:49 <ehird> they're trying to find out which is most-liked
22:04:49 <ehird> the answer is none of them.
22:04:50 <ehird> AnMaster: http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Template:2008/Donate-header/en&action=edit
22:04:50 <ehird> calls to http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Template:2008/Donate-header&action=edit
22:04:50 <ehird> in donate-header, "<skin>Tomas</skin>" is the magick.
22:04:50 <ehird> and <html> is a Mega-Unsafe option you can enable
22:04:50 <ehird> for arbitrary html embedding
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, heh
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, that isn't enabled on normal wikipedia I bet
22:04:50 <ehird> no duh
22:04:50 <ehird> also, http://www.globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/youre-trying-to-divide-by-zero.jpg
22:04:50 <AnMaster> only on the "login really really required" wiki
22:04:50 <ehird> AnMaster: "personal approval required for registration", too.
22:04:50 <ehird> well
22:04:50 <ehird> not qute
22:04:50 <ehird> but that page will be protected
22:04:50 <ehird> and only protected pages can use <html> i think
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, hm
22:04:50 <ehird> i really wish I didn't know this stuff; mediawiki is a huge hack.
22:04:50 <AnMaster> yes
22:04:50 <AnMaster> it is
22:04:50 <ehird> 1969 – She won the first "man of the year" award from the Data Processing Management Association. -- [[Grace Hopper]]
22:04:50 <ehird> ^ lol
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, also that divide by zero: heh
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, where was that quote from?
22:04:50 <ehird> AnMaster: "-- [[Grace Hopper]]"
22:04:50 <oerjan> ehird: you can turn off the fundraiser in your wikipedia preferences if you're logged in
22:04:50 <ehird> oerjan: i really don't give a shit
22:04:50 <ehird> I don't want to login
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ah
22:04:50 <ehird> I want the wikimedia foundation to get a clue
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, what about a smaller ad, like half the size of the compressed box?
22:04:50 <AnMaster> something just like "Please support wikipedia"
22:04:50 <AnMaster> or whatever
22:04:50 <oerjan> you want them to start doing _real_ ads because they don't get any donations? :)
22:04:50 <ehird> that would be more acceptable, AnMaster
22:04:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, no
22:04:50 <ehird> but how about they get a better way to gain funds than groveling with HUGE FUCKING RED BORDERS.
22:04:50 <ehird> i mean, crazy I know.
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, agreed
22:04:50 <ehird> even the devs hate coding in the ads, apparently
22:04:50 <ehird> last year ais said they had a MARQUEE
22:04:50 <ehird> of donation messages
22:04:50 <ehird> and the commit asked people to please try and talk some sense into the WMF
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, well WMF use HTML 4.0 on the fund raising pages
22:04:50 <ehird> i mean on the wikipedia header
22:04:50 <ehird> AnMaster: it was a javascript marquee
22:04:50 <ehird> probably
22:04:50 <ehird> not <marquee>
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, even so
22:04:50 <ehird> yeah
22:04:50 <ehird> awful :P
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, noscript++
22:04:50 <ehird> notgoingtositesthatusemarquees++
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, that too
22:04:50 <AnMaster> but when I need to look up the plot summary of a Star Trek episode, where should I go if not wikipedia?
22:04:50 <AnMaster> where else is there?
22:04:50 <ehird> memory alpha?
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, ah true
22:04:50 <ehird> I'm kind of ashamed that I know that name.
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, same
22:04:50 <AnMaster> :P
22:04:50 <ehird> AnMaster: you could use adblock to block the donation grid
22:04:50 <ehird> I might do that, with a greasemonkey script (greasekit does them for safari)
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I do use adblock as well
22:04:50 <AnMaster> adblock and noscript
22:04:50 <GreaseMonkey> hello.
22:04:50 <AnMaster> lol
22:04:50 <ehird> i use lynx
22:04:50 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, not you, the firefox extension
22:04:50 <ehird> 0.1
22:04:50 <ehird> with nohtml
22:04:50 <ehird> it blocks all html
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I do use lynx sometimes, it has excellent gopher support
22:04:50 <ehird> also, I only use it for gopher
22:04:50 <AnMaster> and it support short tags better than other browsers
22:04:50 <ehird> AnMaster: ugh, stop being all poe's law on me
22:04:50 <GreaseMonkey> i know
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, no I'm not
22:04:50 <AnMaster> I was playing along
22:04:50 <ehird> ah. ;P
22:04:50 <ehird> *:P
22:04:50 <AnMaster> :^
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway the banner goes away if you block javascript from upload.wikimedia.org
22:04:50 <ehird> wikipedia uses js for other useful things tho.
22:04:50 <AnMaster> well yes
22:04:50 <AnMaster> there are very few cases of people using js for something good
22:04:50 <AnMaster> all those javascript menus for example... CSS menus!
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22:48:30 <ehird> x
22:48:35 <ehird> x+8
22:48:44 <oerjan> x!
22:49:43 <ehird> 9
22:50:21 <oerjan> i sin x - pi
22:54:07 <ehird> 5
22:55:11 <oerjan> -180
22:55:16 <ehird> 9
22:55:53 <oerjan> 9
22:56:30 <ehird> 9
22:56:42 <oerjan> -9
22:57:03 <ehird> 9
22:57:24 <oerjan> 0
22:57:38 <ehird> 9
22:58:18 <oerjan> 387420489
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23:11:30 <oerjan> Swami Abandananda
23:12:07 <ehird> .
23:12:08 <ehird> 9
23:14:36 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.
23:14:36 <fungot> I
23:14:41 <oerjan> what the heck
23:15:08 * oerjan is losing basic arithmetic
23:15:18 <ehird> oerjan: ouch
23:15:24 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++[->++++++++<]>+.
23:15:25 <fungot> 9
23:15:36 <ehird> oerjan: now make it print a space and 9s forever.
23:16:15 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[->+++++++>++++<<]>+[.>.<]
23:16:15 <fungot> 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 ...
23:16:26 <ehird> yay
23:16:40 <ehird> >.<
23:16:40 <ehird> awwwww
23:16:54 <psygnisfive> ?
23:17:37 <ehird> +[.>.<]
23:17:48 <psygnisfive> ^bf +[.>.<]
23:17:48 <fungot> <CTCP>
23:18:02 <psygnisfive> does not compute!
23:18:03 <psygnisfive> D:
23:18:05 <ehird> 23:16 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[->+++++++>++++<<]>+[.>.<]
23:18:20 <psygnisfive> oic
23:18:31 <oerjan> voici
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2008-12-31
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00:53:09 -!- ehird has set topic: UTC leap second tomorrow, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60.
00:53:15 <ehird> (leave that there :P)
00:59:31 <ehird> It's easy enough to fix xntpd. It's also easy to fix localtime() to handle leap seconds. In fact, some vendors have already adopted Olson's time library.
00:59:31 <ehird> The main obstacle is POSIX. POSIX is a ``standard'' designed by a vendor consortium several years ago to eliminate progress and protect the installed base. The behavior of the broken localtime() libraries was documented and turned into a POSIX requirement.
00:59:35 <ehird> Fortunately, the POSIX rules are so outrageously dumb---for example, they require that 2100 be a leap year, contradicting the Gregorian calendar---that no self-respecting engineer would obey them.
00:59:38 <ehird> -- djb
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10:17:32 <oerjan> we go forward in leaps and bounds
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10:57:15 <Mony> plop
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14:27:22 <ehird> gah quicklog doesn't fix the joinpart timestamps
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14:30:37 <ehird> anyone wanna help me fix that
14:42:59 <ehird> [[Debian GNU/Linux was the first project to be deliberately modelled on the principles of distributed software development]] what
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15:21:05 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't think you follow the erlang programming rules :D http://www.erlang.se/doc/programming_rules.shtml#HDR11
15:21:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't program defensively in erlang
15:21:50 <ehird> hm. why do you program defensively elsewhere, then?
15:21:58 <ehird> the rule there doesn't seem to apply specifically just to erlang.
15:22:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't really, I try to apply checks only where needed
15:22:23 <ehird> i seem to remember cfunge having quite a bit of that, it's ages since I looked at it though.
15:22:27 * ehird likes offensive programming
15:22:40 <ehird> ("try to make bad programs crash")
15:22:52 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? It *does* check for division by zero of course, since the funge specs state that
15:22:54 <ehird> e.g. there's a non-null-terminated string library, so it puts Z right at the end of the string
15:23:04 <ehird> so that programs that try and use it null-terminated will always break
15:23:12 <ehird> (because a lot of the time, there might be a \0 at the end by chance)
15:23:25 <AnMaster> ehird, nice, what is the name of that library?
15:23:37 <AnMaster> also I think <length>data is much saner
15:23:43 <ehird> I'm not sure, I think maybe a few of them do it. I read that code first in one of djb's libraries, I think.
15:23:53 <AnMaster> heh
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15:24:33 <ehird> It'd be nice if there was a debugger suited to offensive & non-defensive programming; instead of a step-through model it'd just dump as much info as it could in a nice format when the program crashes.
15:25:01 <ehird> (gdb ./p;start;cont;bt) partially achieves that.
15:25:47 * ehird searches for the lib he found the 'Z' in
15:25:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well core dumps is quite like that
15:26:13 <ehird> AnMaster: What I'm thinking is more like - being able to view the callstack, view the local variables at each point of the callstack
15:26:14 <ehird> etc
15:26:19 <ehird> post-crash
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15:26:39 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway the "defensive programming" in cfunge, I guess you could call assert() that, but that is just for debugging since release builds won't have those checks
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15:26:45 <AnMaster> and they *did* help catch a few bugs
15:26:52 <ehird> mm
15:27:05 <ehird> AnMaster: wouldn't they have even without the assert()? I mean:
15:27:12 <ehird> 1. if it's bad input, it'll crash your program anyway
15:27:17 <ehird> 2. why are you passing bad input to it?
15:27:30 <ehird> It should either come from inside your program or have been checked when it was receieved
15:27:52 <ehird> so assert() catches the "it comes from directly inside my program, but I made an error in calling it, and also it will just mess things up instead of crashing the program"
15:27:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't, the asserts are to check for bugs, like "current top of stack > size of stack", bugs *do* happen
15:27:57 <ehird> which seems quite a small case
15:28:15 <AnMaster> and assert() end the program
15:28:31 <AnMaster> but better end that early than hard to debug memory corruption later
15:28:32 <AnMaster> :)
15:28:36 <ehird> True
15:28:51 <ehird> thank gawd for out-of-band error signaling.
15:29:00 <AnMaster> indeed
15:29:58 <AnMaster> oh leap second today?
15:30:05 <ehird> Yep
15:30:17 -!- ehird has set topic: UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60.
15:30:22 <AnMaster> huh, wasn't there one only last year or so?
15:30:23 -!- ehird has set topic: UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/.
15:30:29 <ehird> AnMaster: 2005 i think
15:30:39 <AnMaster> ah, well time files when you get older ;P
15:30:57 <ehird> i am going to try and run as many time-related programs on this machine as possible
15:31:02 <ehird> and maybe screenshot at the right moment
15:31:05 <ehird> to see how many manage it XD
15:31:21 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? I think ntp or such will just correct it a bit later
15:31:33 <AnMaster> such as jumping backwards a second a bit later
15:31:35 <AnMaster> or?
15:31:37 <ehird> AnMaster: posix specifies that leap seconds are explicitly ignored
15:31:40 <ehird> which is retarded
15:31:49 <ehird> but apparently a lot of systems just ignore posix on that point because it's stupid
15:32:01 <ehird> (apparently POSIX specifies 2100 as a leap year.)
15:32:12 <AnMaster> ehird, hm, what exactly does "explicitly ignored" mean for leap seconds?
15:32:28 <ehird> AnMaster: "the second field is never 60"
15:32:35 <ehird> iirc a lot of systems handle that by _repeating time_
15:32:37 <ehird> really
15:32:51 <ehird> it goes to 23:59:59.9, then back to 23:59:59.0
15:33:07 <AnMaster> ah
15:33:15 <AnMaster> ehird, time travel :)
15:33:32 <ehird> AnMaster: that should be unix-alikes' new marketing strategy
15:33:36 <AnMaster> hah
15:33:36 <ehird> "So powerful you could TRAVEL THROUGH TIME"
15:33:43 <AnMaster> how does OS X handle it?
15:33:52 <ehird> I'm going to find out, aren't I?
15:34:04 <ehird> Probably I should set my system clock forward and test, but that's cheating.
15:34:27 <AnMaster> iirc I did some test in 2005, and found out that the system just went on and then ntp corrected the time backwards with one second a few minutes after
15:34:47 <AnMaster> heh
15:34:48 <ehird> ouch
15:35:00 <ehird> hooray for standards-specified idiocy
15:35:16 <AnMaster> yes, that and dlsym()
15:35:26 <ehird> AnMaster: ah, the "no functions" thing?
15:35:29 <AnMaster> yep
15:35:50 <ehird> that's not a dlsym stupidity, that's a "funcptrs don't neccessarily go in anything but a funcptr"
15:35:55 <ehird> stupidity
15:36:17 <ehird> AnMaster: posix gives functions as an example though http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/dlsym.html
15:36:25 <ehird> but while it's valid posix
15:36:27 <ehird> it's not valid c.
15:36:30 <AnMaster> well there are systems where sizeof(function pointer) != sizeof(data pointer)
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15:36:41 <AnMaster> but posix doesn't support them
15:36:44 <ehird> the correct solution is a dlsym specifically for functions.
15:36:48 <AnMaster> yes
15:36:59 * AnMaster looks at POSIX.1-2008 pdf
15:37:14 <ehird> and maybe a nice wrapper that returns a struct{int type;union{void *var;blah *func}data;}
15:37:16 <ehird> or whatever
15:37:19 <AnMaster> draft that is
15:38:53 <AnMaster> The ISO C standard does not require that pointers to functions can be cast back and forth to
15:38:53 <AnMaster> pointers to data. However, POSIX-conforming implementations are required to support this, as
15:38:53 <AnMaster> noted in Section 2.12.3 (on page 541). The result of converting a pointer to a function into a
15:38:53 <AnMaster> pointer to another data type (except void *) is still undefined, however.
15:38:54 <AnMaster> haha
15:39:02 <ehird> Yes.
15:39:16 <AnMaster> Note that compilers conforming to the ISO C standard are required to generate a warning if a
15:39:16 <AnMaster> conversion from a void * pointer to a function pointer is attempted as in:
15:39:16 <AnMaster> fptr = (int (*)(int))dlsym(handle, "my_function");
15:39:29 <ehird> I suggest we assassinate the POSIX writers.
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15:41:42 <AnMaster> ehird, hm, would be messy
15:41:59 <ehird> But for the best!
15:42:14 <AnMaster> ehird, what would you prefer? win32 api being standard?
15:42:31 <AnMaster> I suspect that it would get even worse without posix
15:42:47 <AnMaster> err grammar
15:42:48 <ehird> I'm pretty sure people wrote cross-platform programs before POSIX, didn't they? :P
15:43:07 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah they did, with lots and lots of #ifdef
15:43:08 <ehird> Alternatively: how about an open effort to create a standard that doesn't require violating the C standard
15:43:16 <AnMaster> I have seen such source
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15:43:43 <AnMaster> ehird, and good idea, just one change needed: dlfunc() dldata()
15:43:47 <AnMaster> issue solved
15:44:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Okay, then they can get rid of all the POSIX cruft.
15:44:09 <ehird> Maybe fix the datetime stuff. :-
15:44:10 <ehird> :-P
15:45:09 <ehird> Incidentally, I invented a weird game.
15:46:10 <AnMaster> ehird, 1) yes POSIX is quite good in many parts, a cleanup of it would be the best way 2) what game?
15:46:22 <ehird> 1) yeah
15:46:23 <ehird> 2):
15:46:28 <ehird> Every player guesses a number. The winner is the player who guessed the number closest to the average (mean or median or whatever, I dunno) of all the guesses.
15:46:53 <ehird> Your guess may be initially best, but when it's entered, it may change the average, thus becoming less accurate.
15:46:56 <ehird> :D
15:49:19 <AnMaster> heh
15:49:40 <AnMaster> ehird, what if all players are equally close?
15:49:45 <AnMaster> or at least two are
15:49:51 <ehird> That would be what we call a tie, AnMaster.
15:49:55 <AnMaster> yes
15:49:57 <ehird> :P
15:50:00 <AnMaster> but what are the rules in the game for that
15:50:01 <AnMaster> :P
15:50:11 <ehird> Well, none.
15:50:11 <AnMaster> I mean, shared win or?
15:50:20 <ehird> Hrm.
15:50:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Just make an arbitrary rule
15:50:34 <ehird> like, whichever was higher
15:50:40 <ehird> if they're both equal... I dunno.
15:50:47 <ehird> AnMaster: do it as an elimination game
15:50:50 <AnMaster> you could have several rounds, the winner of each round wins one point, then what would happen in the case of a tie?
15:50:56 <ehird> each round, the player that made the furthest away guess is dropped
15:51:04 <AnMaster> ehird, that would work too
15:51:07 <ehird> if there are multiple with the furthest away, drop all of them
15:51:11 <AnMaster> (except I hate to play such games)
15:51:14 <ehird> when it's down to two...
15:51:17 <ehird> i have no idea.
15:51:26 <AnMaster> ehird, hm
15:51:39 <AnMaster> ehird, you could make many variations on this
15:51:44 <ehird> Yes.
15:51:48 <AnMaster> I think the concept has potential
15:59:43 * ehird installs Chicken.
16:02:48 <ehird> Incidentally, I use a piece of software written in Tcl every day/
16:02:51 <ehird> MacPorts.
16:03:18 <ehird> The whole thing -- right down to the portfiles -- is all tcl. It works great. (the portfiles look just like a homebrewed format; since Tcl is so freeform)
16:16:16 -!- LinuS has joined.
16:17:23 <ehird> [[Jeffrey Mark Siskind, author of Stalin]]
16:17:43 <ehird> Meanwhile, I authored Hitler.
16:18:08 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
16:20:35 <ehird> Huh, I think I'm having problems with emacs key bindings.
16:20:43 <ehird> That's odd, I rarely use emacs. Why would I be having issues?
16:21:07 <ehird> (Specifically, C-x C-f. No, I will not remap capslock to ctrl. ;P)
16:26:00 <AnMaster> ehird, eh what is the issue with C-x C-f exactly?
16:26:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Emacs pinkie, I believe it's called.
16:26:19 <AnMaster> it opens find file prompt in the minibuffer for me
16:26:39 <AnMaster> ehird, ah so no issue like "it doesn't work" or "it does the wrong thing"
16:26:39 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Emacs#Emacs_Pinky
16:26:42 <ehird> Yeah.
16:26:45 <ehird> It's not hurting, it's just awkward. :P
16:26:56 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems quite natural to me
16:27:09 <ehird> My hands are small, though.
16:27:14 <AnMaster> but I have big hands and this is a standard full size PC keyboard
16:27:34 <ehird> TextMate's completion shortcut is option-escape. I never use it for that erason.
16:27:36 <ehird> *reason
16:27:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I can quite easily do Ctrl-Alt-Esc with one hand, iirc that was something used on pre-OS X macs
16:28:00 <AnMaster> macbugs maybe
16:28:01 <AnMaster> not sure
16:28:05 <ehird> i can do that but I have to contort my hands.
16:28:11 <ehird> It's slow.
16:28:12 <AnMaster> contort?
16:28:40 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?q=define:contort
16:28:50 <AnMaster> ah
16:29:58 * ehird designates ~/Code/crap/foo.scm as his Chicken testpad.
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16:35:12 <ehird> http://chicken.wiki.br/sandbox Ooooooooh yes
16:35:46 <ehird> Shame about the lack of io tho.
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16:56:24 <AnMaster> hm chicken, isn't it r6rs iirc?
16:56:30 <AnMaster> or is it one of those that isn't
17:01:28 <AnMaster> ehird, ^
17:01:44 <ehird> It is a sideset of r5rs.
17:01:46 <ehird> (subset & superset)
17:02:02 <ehird> http://call-with-current-continuation.org/
17:02:11 <ehird> Uh.
17:02:11 <ehird> http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/
17:02:13 <ehird> Needs the www.
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17:15:35 <ehird> hrm
17:15:59 <ehird> 14:01:56 <oklokok> so cute i'm almost crying :)
17:37:39 <ehird> 15:12:32 <oklopol> i never understood these laws, at least 100% of 13-year-olds are having sex anyway
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18:11:55 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR KAZAKHSTAN.
18:12:12 <ehird> Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY OLD YEAR
18:12:16 <ehird> er.
18:12:21 -!- ehird has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY OLD YEAR.
18:12:31 * oerjan swats ehird -----###
18:12:41 * ehird steals oerjan's swatter
18:12:52 * ehird swats oerjan -----###
18:13:02 * oerjan watches ehird get eaten by the swatter
18:13:10 * ehird eats the swatter before it manages
18:13:15 * ehird burrrrrrrrrrrrrp
18:13:22 <oerjan> it's distantly related to the Luggage, you see
18:13:55 * oerjan watches a big bump forming on ehird's stomach
18:14:02 * ehird eats the bump
18:15:15 * oerjan listens to something chewing inside ehird's stomach
18:15:25 * ehird eats himself
18:15:33 <ehird> CAN'T CHEW A SINGULARITY
18:15:37 <oerjan> there _might_ be a bit of xenomorph in it, too
18:16:19 <oerjan> i'd say that was a singularly bad idea
18:16:30 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR BANGLADESH.
18:16:31 * ehird absorbs all light.
18:16:42 * ehird starts sucking in random shit and grows bigger.
18:16:48 <ehird> hey am blak hol
18:17:04 * oerjan flies to the LHC to make an opposing hole
18:17:50 * ehird absorbs the LHC while it is turned on
18:17:56 <ehird> Whoah, freaky.
18:18:00 <ehird> The black holes are trying to suck me in.
18:18:05 <ehird> But they are no match for I.
18:20:05 <oerjan> <ehird> ("try to make bad programs crash")
18:20:19 <oerjan> "try to make bad programs end life as we know it"
18:20:25 <oerjan> now _that's_ offensive
18:20:36 <ehird> Actually, that's what I'm doing right now as a black hole.
18:20:39 * ehird gobbles up oerjan
18:20:47 <oerjan> but, you're not a program
18:20:55 <ehird> yes. I am.
18:21:02 * oerjan retrieves his swatter from inside ehird
18:21:10 <ehird> You're in a black hole.
18:21:15 <ehird> how the fuck are you using the internet?
18:21:18 <oerjan> as is my swatter
18:21:35 <oerjan> superluminal eta waves
18:21:42 <ehird> I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BH-no-escape-3.svg
18:23:16 <ehird> 16:26:17 <lament> okay16:26:26 <lament> here's an actual question as opposed to a rant.16:28:21 <lament> nevermind16:28:24 <lament> here's some more ranting.
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18:29:53 <ehird> [20:18:57] < fizzie> we both have this weird habit of first writing a befunge interpreter when trying to learn a new language.
18:29:55 <ehird> -- 2002
18:30:56 * oerjan did too, except with unlambda
18:32:56 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR INDIA.
18:33:12 <oerjan> one of those strange half-hour countries
18:34:41 <ehird> i'm happy, why?
18:35:18 <oerjan> freak natural accident?
18:35:28 <ehird> :D
18:42:19 <oerjan> <ehird> Your guess may be initially best, but when it's entered, it may change the average, thus becoming less accurate.
18:42:35 <ehird> yes?
18:42:42 <oerjan> adding a guess equal to the average would tend not to change the average, at least for means
18:42:54 <ehird> oerjan: getting a guess -equal- to the average is very unlikely
18:42:57 <ehird> I'm talking about close to the average
18:43:04 <oerjan> still
18:43:21 <oerjan> if you add a number, the average is going to get closer to that number
18:43:29 <ehird> i guess
18:43:34 <oerjan> so if it was closest, it must still be
18:43:52 <oerjan> probably true for median too
18:44:25 <oerjan> in fact that might be taken as an axiom for a reasonable average
18:44:34 <ehird> i guess so
18:45:32 <oerjan> have you heard about the mediocrity game?
18:45:55 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:46:38 <ehird> no
18:47:22 <oerjan> it's played in levels
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18:48:22 <oerjan> hmph why no google link
18:48:29 <oerjan> (proper)
18:51:17 <oerjan> you'd think someone had purged the links :D
18:52:16 <oerjan> ah there
18:52:31 <oerjan> on level 0 everyone selects a number (1-10), say
18:52:41 <oerjan> the middle number wins that level
18:53:31 <oerjan> for level n: play m games of level n-1 mediocrity. the winner is the one with the middle number of n-1 wins
18:54:17 <oerjan> "The strategy for higher level games of mediocrity (3+) is extremely difficult."
18:54:24 <oerjan> http://everything2.com/title/Mediocrity
18:55:18 <ehird> heh
18:55:30 <ehird> oerjan: mine's cooler though.
18:55:38 <ehird> because it is meta about the actual bets
19:02:31 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR UZBEKISTAN.
19:03:03 -!- ehird has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR MOLVANIA.
19:05:48 <oerjan> rubbish. that's at least 3 hours yet
19:06:06 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR MALDIVES.
19:12:41 -!- ehird has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY BIRTHDAY MALDIVES.
19:23:42 <oerjan> wait a minute
19:32:16 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR AFGHANISTAN.
19:32:24 <oerjan> they're gonna need it
20:00:23 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR ARMENIA.
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20:07:32 <ehird> [02:36:28] < fizzie> hmm, got an idea. why not run all ietf drafts through a markov-process-like-word-mangler like the befunge psycho meta brain works. easy way to get an unlimited number of more internet-drafts.
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20:25:14 <Asztal> that amuses me because of the randomly-generated paper that got accepted into a conference this year.
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20:30:39 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR IRAN.
20:31:24 <oerjan> you really need to cheer up
20:33:49 <psygnisfive> asztal: sokal affair again?
20:39:51 <Asztal> more or less
20:39:52 <Asztal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCIgen#Prominent_Results
20:40:05 <Asztal> I thought it was this year though, not 2005
20:40:40 <oerjan> yes it was on reddit recently
20:40:55 <oerjan> it was a computer generated paper
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20:41:52 <oerjan> oh it seems it was 2005. well typical of reddit
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21:01:26 <psygnisfive> 'On two occasions I have been asked,—"Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" [...] I am not able rightly to comprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.'
21:02:51 <ehird> psygnisfive: i read that quote when I was like in the womb.
21:02:56 <psygnisfive> :p
21:03:08 <psygnisfive> i only just read it and i find it quite pithy
21:03:33 <ehird> it follows on from being indistinguishable from magic.
21:04:13 -!- metazilla has joined.
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21:04:25 <ehird> metazilla: are you the mooz_ of 2002 gone by?
21:04:28 <ehird> moozilla:
21:04:48 <psygnisfive> ehird have you been around here since 2002?
21:05:02 <ehird> psygnisfive: no, but I have logs of dec 2002 from fizzie :P
21:05:07 <psygnisfive> ok
21:05:10 <ehird> wish I was here in 2002 tho
21:05:20 <ehird> i'd have been 7
21:05:25 <psygnisfive> i was gonna say, esoterica? when you were just 7? what nonsense is this
21:05:42 <ehird> well, or 6
21:05:49 <ehird> birthday in august, so, 6
21:05:57 <psygnisfive> i'd've been lesse
21:05:59 <psygnisfive> 16?
21:06:18 <ehird> hmm
21:06:27 <ehird> under 16s here: ihope, deveah, ...
21:06:28 <ehird> i think thats it
21:06:29 <ehird> oh
21:06:31 <ehird> asie
21:06:32 <ehird> :p
21:06:41 <psygnisfive> lets pretend it's 6 years ago
21:06:50 <psygnisfive> ill be 16 you be 6.
21:06:50 <ehird> psygnisfive: that's impossible, this place was way cooler then
21:06:57 <ehird> I mean, fizzie didn't use uppercase for chrissake
21:06:59 <ehird> that's the power of 2002
21:07:06 * psygnisfive age 16 raeps you age 6
21:07:10 <ehird> no.
21:07:12 <psygnisfive> ah nothing changed i see!
21:07:13 <psygnisfive> :P
21:07:25 <psygnisfive> uppercase? what's uppercase?
21:07:27 <psygnisfive> :|
21:07:28 <ehird> hi lol
21:07:29 <ehird> hu r u
21:07:47 <ehird> I don't actually know how I typed when I was 6 (I didn't use any social communimacation machines on the interweb).
21:08:05 <psygnisfive> i didnt either but thats because when i was 6 we didnt have electricity
21:08:07 <ehird> But I typed basically all lower-case, punctuation-netspeak-clusterfuck of incoherency when I was 8.
21:08:23 <psygnisfive> i never typed that way
21:08:35 <ehird> Reading back on what I said then, it was awful. I can't even figure out wtf I was saying.
21:08:43 <ehird> Needless to say, I was universally hated. :P
21:09:00 <psygnisfive> now it takes a more refined eye to detect your youth
21:10:01 <ehird> I was dreading my 13th birthday. Because non-retarded 13 year olds are slightly more common. :P
21:10:20 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR MADAGASCAR.
21:10:56 <psygnisfive> Madagascar 2 was a good movie, surprisingly
21:12:20 <oerjan> http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/garble.htm
21:12:32 <oerjan> that was you?
21:12:34 <psygnisfive> ehird have you seen my websites backgrounds?
21:12:38 <ehird> Yes.
21:13:00 <ehird> oerjan: no, I just came off as annoying and idiotic.
21:13:10 <psygnisfive> arent they lovely backgrounds, ehird? :D
21:13:16 <ehird> no :P
21:13:19 <psygnisfive> :(
21:13:34 <psygnisfive> im considering using a massive 1D CA trace
21:13:40 <psygnisfive> maybe 110 doing some computation
21:14:10 <ehird> psygnisfive: just make it run game of life in the background.
21:14:11 <ehird> :P
21:14:16 <psygnisfive> too much effort
21:14:25 <ehird> psygnisfive: pre-render it as an anigif
21:14:37 <psygnisfive> too annoying
21:15:19 <ehird> psygnisfive: who cares
21:15:22 <psygnisfive> i do
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21:17:21 <psygnisfive> continuous CAs are weird
21:17:51 <ehird> hm?
21:18:35 <psygnisfive> continuous CAs
21:18:42 <psygnisfive> as opposed to ones that use discrete time/space
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21:19:47 <ehird> interesting.
21:20:35 <psygnisfive> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_spatial_automaton
21:21:45 <psygnisfive> continuous spatial automaton might describe the universe ;)
21:21:48 <ehird> spatula automaton
21:21:53 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:21:56 <psygnisfive> spatual!
21:22:01 <ehird> no, spatula.
21:22:07 <psygnisfive> spataul!
21:22:09 <ehird> no, spatula.
21:22:20 <psygnisfive> spatalu!
21:22:47 <ehird> no, spatula.
21:22:59 <psygnisfive> sputala!
21:23:02 <ehird> no, spatula.
21:23:22 <psygnisfive> sputaal!
21:23:24 <ehird> no, spatula.
21:23:28 <psygnisfive> suptaal!
21:23:32 <ehird> no, spatula.
21:23:41 <psygnisfive> spatula!
21:24:11 <oerjan> latsaup
21:24:12 <ehird> yes, spatula.
21:24:14 <ehird> agh
21:24:17 <ehird> fuck you oerjan
21:24:18 <ehird> you ruined it
21:24:19 <ehird> :(
21:24:22 <ehird> YOU RUINED EVERYTHING
21:24:22 <psygnisfive> spatula spatula spatual! :D
21:24:25 <oerjan> that's actually a genuine norwegian insult
21:24:32 <ehird> latsaup you, then.
21:24:49 <oerjan> or at least sounds like one
21:25:01 <psygnisfive> spatual! :D
21:25:23 <oerjan> splatau
21:25:33 <psygnisfive> splatau!! :DDD
21:25:44 <ehird> [07:55:30] < lament> calamari: They're probably on crack, so your argument doesn't hold
21:25:50 <ehird> --2002
21:26:04 <psygnisfive> http://handson.provocateuse.com/images/photos/christian_bale_10.jpg
21:26:05 <oerjan> hitler!
21:26:06 <psygnisfive> christian bale is emo
21:31:30 <ehird> [02:47:45] < navigator> hey have any ascii anime porn links?
21:31:31 <ehird> -- 2002
21:31:36 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:39:04 <ehird> [20:14:16] < navigator> to use linux as the wa^H^Hgateway, mustn't i put 1 in /proc/sus^H^Hys/net/ipv4/ip_forward and that's it?
21:39:09 <ehird> those are literal ^Hs in the file
21:39:10 <ehird> a rare gem
21:40:46 <oerjan> you mean those aren't attempts at irony?
21:40:52 <psygnisfive> ehird
21:40:53 <psygnisfive> http://complexification.net/gallery/
21:40:59 <psygnisfive> choose something for me to use as my desktop
21:40:59 <oerjan> the wa^H shows some promise
21:41:22 <ehird> psygnisfive: generate a file with random noise pixels and use that
21:41:25 <ehird> 'swhat I did for a while
21:41:37 <psygnisfive> ??
21:41:38 <psygnisfive> white noise?
21:41:44 <ehird> no, random noise pixels
21:41:53 <psygnisfive> yes, visual white noise
21:41:59 <ehird> psygnisfive: but multicolour.
21:42:03 <ehird> photoshop doesit :P
21:42:06 <psygnisfive> hm
21:42:12 <psygnisfive> i dont know if i want THAT tho
21:42:19 <ehird> it's awfully wonderful
21:42:40 <psygnisfive> lemme see
21:42:47 <psygnisfive> hmm
21:42:52 <psygnisfive> photoshop needs to start faster
21:42:56 <oerjan> that binary ring thing somehow disturbs me. take that.
21:43:01 <psygnisfive> why?
21:43:14 <oerjan> (second last)
21:43:50 <oerjan> s/take that/use that/
21:44:03 <oerjan> darn idioms
21:44:17 <psygnisfive> hmm
21:44:40 <psygnisfive> i wonder what scales gaussian noise can be tiled at without looking repetetive
21:44:48 <psygnisfive> time to experiment!
21:45:10 <oerjan> ITYM repetetetive
21:45:32 <psygnisfive> ?
21:45:44 <oerjan> ITYM repetetetetive
21:49:56 <psygnisfive> hmm
21:50:07 <psygnisfive> i need a way to script creating random noise
21:50:17 <psygnisfive> and tiling images
21:52:28 <psygnisfive> hm
21:52:37 <psygnisfive> it becomes hard to detect tiling at 50px
21:52:45 <psygnisfive> not impossible but its not as obvious as, say, 10px
21:52:47 <psygnisfive> or 20px
22:03:58 -!- oerjan has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR ZAMBIA.
22:04:35 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:05:09 <oerjan> ah someone who hails from the future year 2009
22:05:25 <ais523> planning to celebrate the leap second?
22:05:35 <ehird> we all are.
22:05:35 <ehird> duh.
22:09:18 <psygnisfive> i wont notice the leap second
22:09:24 <ehird> we will force you to.
22:09:30 <psygnisfive> D:
22:10:00 <psygnisfive> hey you know whats good about 2009?
22:10:03 <psygnisfive> star trek :D
22:10:09 <oerjan> don't worry, it will be a short torture
22:10:31 <oerjan> you mean star trek becomes real in 2009?
22:10:36 <psygnisfive> yep!
22:10:43 <psygnisfive> in 2009 we'll be flying around in space ships.
22:10:51 <oerjan> about time!
22:25:28 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:33:52 <ehird> oerjan:
22:33:55 <ehird> plz to be updating topicK?
22:34:21 <oerjan> hm?
22:34:27 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR GREAT ZIMBABWE.
22:34:45 <oerjan> there are no +1:30 timezones in the wp list
22:35:12 <oerjan> i guess that will do
22:35:32 <oerjan> and they need it too
22:35:43 <psygnisfive> sinze +1:30 doesnt exist, we wish happy new year to an empire that doesnt exist
22:35:46 <psygnisfive> :)
22:36:34 <oerjan> someone else should update next half hour as i will be going out to watch fireworks
22:36:50 <oerjan> *in half an hour
22:45:52 <psygnisfive> im in an exceptional mood gentlemen
22:45:54 <psygnisfive> EXCEPTION
22:45:55 <psygnisfive> AL
22:46:00 <ehird> poop
22:47:21 <psygnisfive> :)
22:49:25 <oerjan> i guess the :) means it's an exceptionally _good_ mood rather than the opposite
22:49:30 <oerjan> fireworks ->
22:53:25 <psygnisfive> -> fireworks
22:53:55 <psygnisfive> what is it? +1?
22:55:08 <ehird> beats me
22:56:48 <psygnisfive> oerjan is in sweden right?
22:57:24 <ehird> ...
22:57:25 <ehird> norway
22:57:37 <psygnisfive> close enough
22:57:54 <ais523> who gets the happy new year at 23:00 UTC?
22:59:05 <ehird> uhh
22:59:07 <ehird> molvania
22:59:13 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR ALBANIA, ANDORRA, AUSTRIA, BELGIUM, BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA, CROATIA, CZECH REPUBLIC, DENMARK, FRANCE, GERMANY, GIBRALTAR, HUNGARY, ITALY, KOSOVO, LIECHTENSTEIN, LUXEMBOURG, MACEDONIA, MALTA, MONACO, MONTENEGRO, NETHERLANDS, NORWAY, POLAND, SAN MARINO, SERBIA, SLOVAKIA, SLOVENIA, SPAIN, EXCEPT CANARY ISLANDS, SV.
22:59:22 <ehird> SV
22:59:25 <ais523> psygnisfive: you're a few seconds early
22:59:25 <ehird> SV-------
22:59:35 <psygnisfive> is got cut off :(
22:59:43 <ehird> cut out the log
22:59:44 <ehird> s
22:59:46 <psygnisfive> HAPPY NEW YEAR ALBANIA, ANDORRA, AUSTRIA, BELGIUM, BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA, CROATIA, CZECH REPUBLIC, DENMARK, FRANCE, GERMANY, GIBRALTAR, HUNGARY, ITALY, KOSOVO, LIECHTENSTEIN, LUXEMBOURG, MACEDONIA, MALTA, MONACO, MONTENEGRO, NETHERLANDS, NORWAY, POLAND, SAN MARINO, SERBIA, SLOVAKIA, SLOVENIA, SPAIN, EXCEPT CANARY ISLANDS, SVALBARD AND JAN MAYEN, SWEDEN, SWITZERLAND, TUNISIA, VATICAN CITY, ALGERIA, ANGOLA, BENIN
22:59:46 <ehird> nobody cares about the logs
22:59:48 <psygnisfive> , BOUVET ISLAND, CAMEROON, CENTRAL AFRICAN REPUBLIC, CHAD, DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF THE CONGO, EQUATORIAL GUINEA, GABON, NIGER, NIGERIA, AND REPUBLIC OF THE CONGO!
22:59:51 <ehird> psygnisfive: BENIN-
23:00:16 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/esoteric/ | UTC leap second today, Dec 31 @ 23:59:60 | try http://time.gov/ | HAPPY NEW YEAR OERJAN.
23:00:31 <psygnisfive> u.u
23:06:00 <oerjan> YES!
23:06:06 <oerjan> I'M OFFICIALLY A COUNTRY
23:06:15 <oerjan> ALSO, HAPPY NEW YEAR
23:06:26 <ais523> ehird: I care about the logs
23:06:29 <ais523> so does oklopol
23:06:31 <ais523> so do freenode
23:06:33 <ehird> w/e mon
23:06:45 <oerjan> oklopol is impresent
23:06:56 <ais523> oerjan: oklopol is esolang programming
23:07:01 <ais523> therefore, this channel is actually about him
23:08:17 <oerjan> SVALBARD AND JAN MAYEN belong to norway, btw
23:09:09 <oerjan> jan mayen has our only volcano
23:11:42 * oerjan was going to say something about how countries with "democratic" in their names are rarely democratic
23:12:04 <ehird> oerjan: no more firevurkz?
23:12:19 <oerjan> then i checked up the republic of the congo without the democratic part and found out it's not much better
23:12:41 * oerjan decided fireworks are really stupid, especially when you need to go to the toilet
23:13:14 <ehird> man this place was so much better in 2002
23:13:18 <ehird> IT IS NOW 2002, OK
23:13:31 <ais523> no, it is officially 1993
23:13:34 <ais523> and has been all month
23:13:36 <oerjan> )-`:
23:13:41 <ehird> no 2002 is cool
23:13:44 <oerjan> YOU DON'T LIKE US
23:13:46 <ehird> it is exempted from eternal september
23:13:49 <ehird> oerjan: you can come.
23:14:03 <ehird> fizzie: calling you in.
23:14:07 <ehird> navigator, lament, mooz_: you too.
23:14:24 <ehird> #esoteric was basically just a conversation between fizzie, navigator and mooz_
23:14:30 <ehird> with lament and dbc occasionally butting in.
23:14:35 <ehird> they're talking about tibooks.,
23:14:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: i'll sneak you in the backdoor while ehird isn't looking :D
23:14:51 <ehird> fuck
23:15:29 <oerjan> what's a tibook. any relation to springboks?
23:15:43 <ehird> Titanium Powerbook.
23:15:47 <ehird> From Apple computar.
23:16:03 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_G4
23:17:26 <oerjan> hm a conundrum
23:17:45 <oerjan> will eternal september end when the whole world has internet access?
23:17:50 <ehird> no.
23:17:51 <ehird> [23:22:07] < navigator> i'm not sure why to kill the neighbor's dog
23:18:16 <oerjan> because it's barking, or rather howling, half of the day
23:18:29 <oerjan> at least that's why _i_ want to kill the neighbor's dog
23:18:29 <ehird> [23:26:51] -!- mode/#esoteric [+o navigator] by ChanServ
23:18:30 <ehird> WHOA.
23:18:31 <ehird> HE'S OP?
23:18:35 <ehird> THIS IS NEW>
23:18:40 <ehird> this is awesome
23:18:42 <ehird> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:18:53 <oerjan> and hasn't been seen for years?
23:18:53 <ehird> [23:27:58] < fizzie> IN SOVIET RUSSIA baby jesus makes os X and fvwm2 cry! (ok, that's it, no more /. for me)
23:18:57 <ehird> it was funny in 2002
23:19:21 <oerjan> i guess i'm still in 2002, as i laughed
23:19:25 <oerjan> *lolled
23:20:17 <ehird> ais523:
23:20:17 <ehird> [00:31:37] < mooz_> hmm, esolang discussions are rather rare here
23:20:20 <ehird> PRECEDENT!!
23:20:29 <oerjan> PRESIDENT!!
23:20:53 <oerjan> PRESCIENT!!
23:21:01 <ehird> umm
23:21:08 <ehird> CREAMPUFF!!
23:21:33 <oerjan> ooh hard one
23:21:41 <oerjan> DREAMSTUFF!!
23:22:24 <ehird> ...
23:22:25 <ehird> GREEN
23:22:37 <oerjan> SPLEEN
23:22:46 <ehird> MEAN
23:22:49 <ehird> MACHINE
23:22:59 <psygnisfive> BACHINE
23:23:02 <ehird> Precedent PResident Prescient Creampuff Dreamstuff Green Spleen Mean Machine Bachine
23:23:04 <ehird> that is some machine
23:23:12 <oerjan> MOCHA
23:23:14 <ehird> PPPCDGSMMB
23:23:17 <oerjan> er, MOCCA
23:23:17 <ehird> PPPCDGSMMBM
23:23:30 <psygnisfive> POPPADUM
23:23:57 <oerjan> oh wait it is MOCHA in english
23:24:04 <psygnisfive> yes
23:24:49 <oerjan> PAPADOPOULOS
23:25:42 <ehird> [19:48:18] < IcemanX> Have you seen navigator?
23:25:42 <ehird> [19:49:20] < IcemanX> Hurry up please!
23:25:44 <ehird> [19:49:51] < IcemanX> Have you seen navigator?
23:25:46 <ehird> [19:50:04] < IcemanX> fizzie?
23:25:48 <ehird> thing with this is
23:25:50 <ehird> this guy comes in every few days
23:25:52 <ehird> and asks for navigator
23:25:54 <ehird> and never does anything else
23:25:57 <ehird> and they always miss each other by a few minutes
23:26:49 <oerjan> and no one notices that they look just the same except for glasses?
23:26:54 <ehird> :DD
23:27:12 <psygnisfive> in phonology thatd be called complementary distribtion
23:27:27 <psygnisfive> which we'd use to infer that two things are really the same thing
23:27:50 <psygnisfive> obviously linguists in the Marvel universe is well aware of superman and clark kents sameness
23:27:55 <oerjan> another possibility is that navigator is psychic and _really_ doesn't want to see IcemanX
23:28:28 <oerjan> wrong universe, psygnisfive
23:28:50 <psygnisfive> DC
23:28:51 <psygnisfive> same thing
23:28:54 <ehird> --- Day changed Wed Jan 01 2003
23:31:18 <ehird> [03:21:42] < lament> I am not the channel founder
23:31:18 <ehird> [03:22:01] < lament> navigator is.
23:31:20 <ehird> [03:22:09] * andreou == navigator
23:31:22 <ehird> wait wait wait
23:31:25 <ehird> I thought it was aardappel?????????????
23:32:35 <AnMaster> HAPPY NEW YEAR + 32 minutes!
23:32:44 <ehird> happy new year - 32 minutes
23:32:50 <ehird> errr
23:32:59 <ehird> happy new year - (60 - 32) minutes
23:33:04 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: i'll sneak you in the backdoor while ehird isn't looking :D <-- ??
23:33:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
23:33:20 <ehird> we're going back to 2002
23:33:26 <ehird> when this place was cooler
23:33:31 <oerjan> AnMaster: you are not expected to understand this
23:33:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, I guess I was just a random victim then
23:34:03 <oerjan> no, i wouldn't say that
23:34:09 <oerjan> not random at all, no
23:34:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh btw that wouldn't have worked I was just standing inside the backdoor around then
23:34:17 <AnMaster> watching fireworks
23:34:23 <oerjan> ah
23:34:43 <oerjan> also, happy new year
23:34:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, and I knew it was closed, too cold to have it open
23:34:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, same
23:34:55 <AnMaster> <ehird> happy new year - (60 - 32) minutes
23:34:56 <AnMaster> no
23:35:00 <AnMaster> <ehird> happy new year + (60 - 32) minutes
23:35:01 <AnMaster> :P
23:35:07 <KingOfKarlsruhe> happy new year from Karlsruhe/Germany !
23:35:08 <AnMaster> that would have worked for you
23:35:08 <ehird> uh...
23:35:09 <ehird> no
23:35:14 <ais523> AnMaster: happy 2008 for me. What's it like in 2009?
23:35:16 <ehird> it isn't new year yet here.
23:35:17 <AnMaster> ah right
23:35:23 <AnMaster> ais523, the same
23:35:24 <ais523> I'm considering going there in about half an hour, could do with a review
23:35:32 <ehird> the same?
23:35:34 <ehird> won't bother then.
23:35:39 <Warrigal> Happy hours away from the new year.
23:35:40 <AnMaster> ais523, however a very high amount of fireworks so far this year
23:35:45 <AnMaster> highly unusual
23:35:53 <ehird> sounds awful
23:35:55 <ais523> ehird: put it this way: AnMaster didn't recommend it, so I'd imagine you'd jump at the chance
23:36:01 <AnMaster> :D
23:36:01 <ehird> [05:29:40] * lament is away: my tarantula is molting!!!!
23:36:10 <AnMaster> ehird, hah
23:36:13 <ehird> -- 2002
23:36:18 <ehird> well
23:36:18 <ehird> jan 2003
23:36:19 <ehird> by now
23:36:23 <AnMaster> ais523, hm would you say "counter clockwise" or "anti clockwise"
23:36:25 <AnMaster> in English
23:36:25 * ehird reading >3000 lines of logs from fizzie
23:36:29 <ehird> AnMaster: both.
23:36:40 <AnMaster> no one is more common?
23:36:42 <ais523> AnMaster: they're both correct, I hear anticlockwise more often
23:36:50 <AnMaster> My dictionary list both
23:36:53 <AnMaster> hm
23:36:56 <ehird> i hear both the same
23:36:58 <ehird> I think it depends
23:37:02 <ehird> "turn the dial anticlockwise"
23:37:02 <ehird> but
23:37:07 <ehird> "a reverse clock goes counterclockwise"
23:37:20 <AnMaster> heh
23:37:24 <ais523> ehird: nah, I'd say it went anticlockwise
23:37:27 <ais523> and therefore would be an anticlock
23:37:31 <ehird> ais523: that's because you suck
23:37:48 <AnMaster> it is like ned and ner in Swedish then (both means "down")
23:38:02 <oerjan> sheesh, an anticlock would make _time_ go backwards
23:38:19 <ehird> [18:05:22] -!- lament [~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net] has joined ricotee
23:38:20 <ehird> [18:10:45] < lament> my tarantula molted!
23:38:27 <ehird> ...
23:38:30 <ehird> ricotee -> mangled #esoteric
23:38:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, and would cease to exist if it came in physical contact with a normal clock?
23:38:33 <ehird> vi is fucked up on this system
23:38:43 <oerjan> AnMaster: quite probably
23:38:46 <ais523> very messed up for you to typo it that badly
23:38:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought that was what vi always was
23:38:53 <AnMaster> ;P
23:38:53 <ehird> not a typo, ais523
23:38:57 <ehird> vi actually displayed it as that
23:39:09 <ehird> I think it has miscalculated the number of columns in my terminal
23:39:11 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
23:39:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh you are not one of us enlightened emacs users?
23:39:32 <AnMaster> I pitty you
23:39:36 <Warrigal> I used to think that counterclockwise is called counterclockwise because a counter clock goes that way.
23:39:52 * ehird has used both vi and emacs for months each.
23:39:55 <AnMaster> Warrigal, hah
23:39:56 <ehird> I prefer TextMate.
23:39:58 <psygnisfive> emacs? vi(m)?
23:40:02 <psygnisfive> i agree with ehird
23:40:04 <psygnisfive> TM > all
23:40:04 <AnMaster> I also use kate and kdevelop
23:40:12 <ehird> psygnisfive: shut up, you're making me look bad by association.
23:40:23 * psygnisfive rapes ehird
23:40:27 <ehird> no.
23:40:31 <ehird> that is not shutting up.
23:40:52 <oerjan> all that moaning is rather noisy
23:40:53 <ais523> I use emacs as my main programming editor, gedit for quick notes, and vi every now and then (normally over ssh or telnet)
23:41:09 <ais523> vi is fine, just I haven't really got to know it yet
23:41:54 <AnMaster> emacs and kate for programming; kdevelop for programming too, but not as often; nano for quick config editing as root or over ssh
23:42:17 <ehird> i use emacs for lisp and haskell.
23:42:44 <AnMaster> oh?
23:43:10 <ais523> AnMaster: vi is pretty much a universal editor for UNIX-alikes, and it fits in hardly any disk space
23:43:13 <ais523> which care good reasons to know it
23:43:28 <ais523> sometimes I use systems which don't have enough disk space to fit emacs on them
23:58:50 <oerjan> PLEASE BRACE FOR UPCOMING LEAP SECOND
23:58:55 <ais523> oerjan: is time.gov down?
23:58:58 <ais523> I can't seem to access it
23:59:11 <ais523> ah, it's not
23:59:15 <ais523> just didn't work the first time for some reason
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