00:00:09 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, I thought that \<space> was an escape code
00:00:20 <oerjan> no, it's just what HackEgo uses for output
00:00:38 <hppavilion[1]> `` echo "#!/bin/sh ; if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] ; then echo \"Hello, world!\" ; fi" > bin/1492
00:00:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/1492: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/1492: cannot execute: Permission denied
00:00:48 <b_jonas> Happy new year, +0 timezone people!
00:00:56 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: psst, you could use `cp
00:01:33 <hppavilion[1]> `` echo "#!/bin/sh ; if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] ; then echo \"Hello, world!\" ; fi" > bin/1492
00:01:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/1492: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/1492: cannot execute: Permission denied
00:02:31 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: "chmod" hth
00:02:38 <hppavilion[1]> `` chmod "#!/bin/sh ; if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] ; then echo \"Hello, flat world!\" ; fi" > bin/1492
00:02:40 <HackEgo> chmod: missing operand after `#!/bin/sh ; if [ 2016 != bash ] ; then echo "Hello, flat world!" ; fi' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
00:02:50 <hppavilion[1]> `` chmod bin/1492 "#!/bin/sh ; if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] ; then echo \"Hello, flat world!\" ; fi"
00:02:51 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----###
00:02:51 <HackEgo> chmod: invalid mode: `bin/1492' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
00:03:02 <HackEgo> Usage: chmod [OPTION]... MODE[,MODE]... FILE... \ or: chmod [OPTION]... OCTAL-MODE FILE... \ or: chmod [OPTION]... --reference=RFILE FILE... \ Change the mode of each FILE to MODE. \ \ -c, --changes like verbose but report only when a change is made \ --no-preserve-root do not treat `/' specially (the default) \ --pr
00:03:04 <oerjan> chmod is the command for setting file permissions.
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00:03:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: See, I'm an idiot. You must keep that in mind.
00:03:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So here's an idea for an EsOS: OO Filesystem
00:03:50 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of files, you have instances based on classes.
00:05:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/1492: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/1492: cannot execute: Permission denied
00:05:06 <HackEgo> Hello, world! \ bash: /hackenv/bin/1492: Permission denied
00:05:32 <oerjan> `` rm bin/1492; cp bin/{2015,1492}
00:06:08 <oerjan> stupidly, cp only transfers permissions when the file doesn't already exist
00:06:23 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----###
00:06:33 <oerjan> THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT AT COLUMBUS' TIME
00:07:25 <oerjan> a dead unicorn trope if there ever was one
00:07:29 <shachaf> that joke fell flatter than they beieved the world was
00:07:46 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So OO fsys? What do you think? Or is there a better idea??
00:08:15 <HackEgo> The Moon is an unprovable celestial object that is not very retroreflectorey.
00:08:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i see OO and immediately run away hth
00:09:22 <hppavilion[1]> An OS where the filesystem need not be based on a file tree; you can customize it to your every whim
00:09:55 <oerjan> i'm sure i had that idea > 20 years ago
00:10:21 <hppavilion[1]> One that's actually something people might want to use?
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00:11:41 <oerjan> O KAY excuse me i'm reading tvtropes again
00:14:20 <boily> darn. was transfering pictures from my camera, and a missed a live swatting.
00:14:56 <boily> hppavellon[1]. Haskell isn't eso, it's categorically eso.
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00:20:23 <boily> gamellomanj. when are you?
00:21:45 <gamemanj> I'm actually in GMT, but A. my clock seems to be off (forgot to install NTPd here...) and B. I only recently thought to start distributing Happy New Year messages
00:24:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[4]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46058&oldid=42712 * Vriskanon * (+0) Changed Grid co-ordinates such that 0,0 is top left, rather than bottom left.
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00:50:41 <Taneb> I don't really feel like staying up super really late like I normally do
00:54:35 <boily> Happy Tanew yearb!
01:05:04 <zzo38> How many other people will write comment to my card
01:06:14 <boily> hezzo38. you have a card?
01:06:38 <zzo38> Yes I made up many Magic: the Gathering cards, including some new ones recently
01:08:53 <shachaf> I don't use htdigest so I can't comment.
01:09:01 <shachaf> If you had a regular account registration system I might use it.
01:09:01 <zzo38> It is available in three formats (plain text, SQLite database, and a webpage), but to send comment you will need the account; tell me the account by private message and then I will put it in. The realm for the account is CustomMTG_zzo38
01:09:35 <zzo38> You can also just tell me the password by private message and I will do myself is another way, although it is recommended to make the MD5 calculation yourself instead.
01:11:46 <zzo38> I can add a form to make the MD5 hash of your account automatically if you have JavaScripts.
01:20:59 <zzo38> OK, now there is a form to do it
01:21:38 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php
01:22:58 <zzo38> Now are you able to do it? Now it can be done by form.
01:43:06 <tswett> So here's that Magic card: http://mtgcardsmith.com/view/magic-magnet
01:44:13 <tswett> You enchant enchantments.
01:45:11 <zzo38> Why it makes no sense?
01:45:15 <izabera> yo dawg i heard you like enchantments
01:45:31 <tswett> Say, here's a question.
01:45:47 <tswett> Suppose a card says this: "When this card enters the battlefield, it becomes red until end of turn."
01:45:54 <tswett> It enters the battlefield, but leaves before the ability resolves.
01:46:11 <tswett> Nothing becomes red, right?
01:46:14 <zzo38> Then I think nothing happens; that object no longer exists.
01:52:07 <boily> impermanence of red objects.
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01:55:20 <boily> `relcome dioneone666999
01:55:22 <HackEgo> dioneone666999: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:55:43 <boily> probably the last `relcome of the year...
01:55:54 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:56:58 <boily> and with that, happy new year y'all! up to watching tv specials with the parents (and probably embooze my blood system as collateral damage).
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02:14:12 <hppavilion[1]> http://cheezburger.com/8591039232/guy-edits-bands-wikipedia-page-to-get-backstage-has-beer-with-peking-duk?ref=relatedspp
02:16:23 <izabera> they're paying for security
02:28:07 <hppavilion[1]> His senior quote was from Bill Cosby and Jared the Subway Guy was the person he looked up to the most
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02:51:03 <hppavilion[1]> We should come up with a better unit of measurement than LoC
03:01:06 <\oren\> Language Adjusted Lines of Code
03:01:48 <\oren\> Eg. we benchmark how much code tasks take in various languages, and aply a coeficiant
03:02:41 <\oren\> Also perhaps the LOC should be measured after reformatting to a standard whitespace rule
03:03:35 <\oren\> it's similar to GDP-PPP
03:04:22 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: And what about BF? I think that our metric should work with languages that forgo LoC like BF or, worse, Befunge
03:04:48 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: But also, removing code is good if you don't lose functionality
03:04:58 <\oren\> hmm, for character-oriented languages i guess we measure characters instead of lines
03:05:49 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: But what about an equivalent BF program to a Python program? I imagine for most programs, the BF has more characters than the python has lines
03:06:05 <\oren\> but regardless, the procedure is measure the file somehow, then apply a standard coefieciant to convert it to CLOCE (C Lines of Code Equivalent)
03:06:19 <hppavilion[1]> And in Python, for example, is while x<5 really equivalent to a complex list generator?
03:06:42 <\oren\> so in the case of BF, the coeficiant would be very small
03:07:13 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: And what about libraries? Do we count those?
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03:23:51 <hppavilion[1]> http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/516/361/e9d.jpg
03:26:50 <oerjan> yo dawg i heard you like knives
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04:12:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ROOP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46059&oldid=45970 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+2440) Computational class. Is turing complete!
04:15:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[4]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46060&oldid=46058 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+0) /* The end */
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05:10:16 <hppavilion[1]> I had an idea for an AWESOME name for my Combinatory Logic Language
05:10:48 <hppavilion[1]> It stands for Combinatory Logic Programming Language,
05:11:27 <hppavilion[1]> Or more accurately, Combinatory Logic (Programming Langauge)
05:12:08 <izabera> i get it, it stands for stupid
05:12:41 <hppavilion[1]> (I got the behavior of the S combinator right, correct?)
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05:13:19 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Oh come on, that's the greatest pun ever invented and you know it
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06:55:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Element118 * New user account
06:56:12 <Sgeo> "For example: in arbitrary-precision arithmetic, operations are often performed in a base that is equal to 2^word_size. The most basic division algorithm, "Schoolbook Division", has a step that will be taken in 2/B cases (where B is the base the numbers are in), given random input. On a 32-bit processor that is approximately one in two billion cases, for 64-bit it's one in 18 quintillion cases."
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07:46:36 <hppavilion[1]> Reverse copyright: You have to use it in all publicly-published works, unless explicitly given permission by the copyright holder not to
08:03:08 <izabera> in italy we say "who does X on new year's day, will do X all year long"
08:11:46 <Sgeo> http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/31/health/mre-meals-study-feat/index.html tempting
08:13:37 <Sgeo> $200, which isn't a lot, but hey, free MREs for 3 weeks
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09:48:00 <Sgeo> Is he ok/is that fake?
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11:46:29 <diginet> I had an for an esoteric language: use jacquard loom cards for input, where the program output is a textile
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12:17:29 <Taneb> So, a Jacquard loom
12:21:10 <diginet> Taneb: Jacquard looms aren't turing complete
12:25:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Oerjan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46061&oldid=41033 * LegionMammal978 * (+246) /* Deletion Request */ new section
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13:49:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Asdf]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46062&oldid=39618 * 186.153.105.73 * (+1) /* Move the pointer left, regardless of toggle bit (note: may perform I/O at low addresses) */ simply "as" would also toggle the current bit
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17:19:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 2016: not found
17:19:21 <HackEgo> guestbot/guestbot is nobody
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17:55:04 <Taneb> First time it's done that :)
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17:56:11 <Taneb> Apart from cheating times
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18:00:28 <myname> why is there no copy as 2016?
18:00:35 <Taneb> `cp bin/2014 bin/2016 # let's see how good my memory is
18:00:37 <HackEgo> cp: missing destination file operand after `bin/2014 bin/2016 # let\'s see how good my memory is' \ Try `cp --help' for more information.
18:00:41 <Taneb> `run cp bin/2014 bin/2016 # let's see how good my memory is
18:01:00 <olsner> `run cp bin/2014 bin/2017
18:04:46 <boily> Tanelle, mynamello, hellolsner!
18:04:55 <boily> @tell oerjan where are my kittens?
18:05:10 <boily> @tell oerjan (I meant to @ask, not @tell)
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18:55:43 <zzo38> Is it good to eat?
18:56:07 <ais523> I haven't seen context, but guessing, no
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19:16:54 <izabera> boily | @tell oerjan where are my kittens?
19:17:01 <izabera> fuck copy paste gone wrong
19:18:04 <b_jonas> izabera: they're building their evil plan of hypnotizing all humans to telepathically control them and become the master of the universe
19:18:35 <b_jonas> ais523: I see you posted a new esolanguage that is evil in a sneaky way.
19:18:52 <ais523> why do you consider it evil?
19:19:00 <b_jonas> ais523: It doesn't have gotos, and it probably actually matters. You can't just emulate them with other control structures like in brainfuck.
19:19:12 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/2014: not found
19:19:24 <ais523> that program is in the wrong directory
19:19:35 <ais523> decided to maintain the tradition of an end-of-year esolang, altough this time it wasn't dec 31
19:21:04 <b_jonas> or at least it might take exponentially long programs to simulate it
19:21:09 <b_jonas> but even that might not be enough
19:22:23 <ais523> ofc, PMMN doesn't have this issue as it has reliable reads and writes
19:22:35 <b_jonas> If only it had functions, it would be easy
19:25:48 <ais523> I'm not 100% sure it's doable even with a finite state machine
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19:41:41 <b_jonas> I don't know what that language can do
19:42:02 <b_jonas> I mean, come on, it's AT MOST a Minsky machines, and I don't like those, they're too powerless for my tastes
19:42:18 <b_jonas> mind you, if it had functions, then you'd sort of have one stack, so it's not just a Minsky machine, but still
19:49:37 <ais523> right, that's how I proved Splinter to be more than an FSM
19:50:04 <zzo38> b_jonas: I know now you have the account for comment on my custom cards but did you make the comment to write yet?
19:50:06 <ais523> (its author was aiming for sub-TC, and thought it was an FSM; I'm pretty sure it's a PDA)
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19:51:03 <ais523> b_jonas: I think Minsky machines can be powerful enough to write practical programs in
19:51:07 <ais523> if you have a sufficiently good interp
19:51:14 <ais523> (I was writing one but burned out a bit)
19:51:25 <ais523> actually it's a compiler, not an interp
19:51:36 <ais523> it's already saved a factor of O(n) for the first program I wrote
19:54:07 <ais523> the program in question prints consecutive integers in decimal
19:54:27 <ais523> I'm hoping that when the compiler is finished, it'll run faster than the C equivalent, at least if it's written the obvious way with printf
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20:04:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, I don't think I made a comment yet
20:10:48 <zzo38> I would hope that anyone who would want to write such comment can have the account. It is now possible even if you do not have MD5 software on your computer, to use the form on the webpage if you have JavaScripts, to make the calculation. Also note, you can also use program "curl" to send the comments, and also to download the database; but use of web browser is also possible.
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21:45:40 <hppavilion[1]> [[Call Queue]] should be moved to [[Call Queue (language)]] so we can make a page on the abstract concept of a Call Queue
21:46:52 <Taneb> I don't think a call queue is a common enough concept
21:47:41 <ais523> there's an unfinished language I've worked on that uses a queue rather than a stack for recursion
21:48:03 <ais523> but a separate queue for each function-equivalent
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21:56:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Call stack]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46063 * Hppavilion1 * (+1422) Created page with a wholelotta red links
21:57:26 <hppavilion[1]> For, y'know, information purposes for n00berific esolangers
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22:06:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Call stack/Manipulation]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46064 * Hppavilion1 * (+2065) Created Page
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22:14:43 <Taneb> My esolangs page broke for reasons so I've had to remove the animations because I don't feel like figuring out CSS3 animations
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22:20:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ChaitinFuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46065 * Hppavilion1 * (+2216) Created Page for study of Chaitin's Constant (there. A useful BF derivative.)
22:24:20 <Taneb> https://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/esolangs.html is the page I was talking about
22:29:24 <boily> hppavellon[1]. you ha ve done it.
22:49:36 <HackEgo> hat/hatee-hatee-hatee-hooo
22:52:57 <HackEgo> portmanteau/«Portmanteau» is the French spelling of “port man toe”.
22:53:08 <HackEgo> horse/A horse, a horse! My kingdom for a horse!
22:53:14 <HackEgo> md5/MD5 is a hash algorithm mainly used by underdeveloped aliens.
22:53:31 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/md5
22:54:01 <boily> @ask mroman mrhelloman. underdeveloped aliens?
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23:48:52 <HackEgo> certainty/We don't know what certainty is for sure, but at least it isn't a functor.
23:49:08 <HackEgo> caps lock/CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR TIRED OLD MEMES
23:49:13 <HackEgo> gaspatsjo/gaspatsjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days
23:49:39 <FireFly> followed by a lack of cold winter days
23:50:11 <FireFly> Norwegian climate converged, and now the forecast all year long is "Norwegian"
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00:02:05 <oerjan> oh _now_ you notice me
00:02:08 <lambdabot> boily said 5h 57m 13s ago: where are my kittens?
00:02:08 <lambdabot> boily said 5h 56m 58s ago: (I meant to @ask, not @tell)
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00:05:08 <hppavilion[1]> I just went on a Recruiting mission on the xkcd Fora
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00:06:35 <oerjan> boily_: see http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3826
00:07:45 -!- ineiros has joined.
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00:08:27 <boily> imta there are multiple xkcd forumeses?
00:09:12 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Yes, there is more than one forum within the xkcd superforum
00:10:23 <hppavilion[1]> What novel and convoluted concept could I use instead of classes in an OO language?
00:12:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[User:LegionMammal978/Interpreters/Kangaroo]]": Author request: content was: "<pre> using System; using System.Collections.Generic; using System.IO; using System.Text.RegularExpressions; /* Error codes: * 0 - success * 1 ..." (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/LegionMammal978|LegionMamm
00:13:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Oerjan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46066&oldid=46061 * Oerjan * (+90) /* Deletion Request */
00:14:42 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well you cannot use lectures, because INTERCAL already did.
00:14:44 <ais523> hmm, I wonder why the author didn't want the kangaroo interp online?
00:15:01 <oerjan> he said the idea didn't work
00:15:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: try castes hth
00:16:30 <oerjan> my job is to throw out awful puns
00:16:50 <oerjan> wait is "throw out" the right p.v. here
00:17:39 <oerjan> almost a self-antonym, that one
00:18:57 <oerjan> self-antonym has many synonyms, i see. i think the winner is enantiodrome.
00:19:56 <ais523> "transparent" is a good one ("you can see the inner workings" vs. "you don't have to care about the inner workings")
00:21:17 <oerjan> "Some pairs of contronyms are true homographs, i.e., distinct words with different etymology which happen to have the same form. For instance cleave "separate" is from Old English clēofan, while cleave "adhere" is from Old English clifian, which was pronounced differently."
00:21:34 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps groups, where you specify methods and elements?
00:21:46 <oerjan> i think those must be cognate to no:klyve and no:klebe
00:22:07 <ais523> oerjan: where is that a quote from?
00:22:18 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-antonym
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01:47:26 <HackEgo> superexponential growth/Superexponential growth? SUPEREXPONENTIAL GROWTH?! HOLY CRAP!!!
01:47:37 <fungot> boily: never knew that adams has played guitar on a pink floyd gig...
01:47:46 <boily> fungot: me neither.
01:47:46 <fungot> boily: ( which is absolutely no c whatsoever. even most of the topic, i came across an asm dump of metroid ( nes) ( a
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02:02:07 <fungot> FireFly: i have no real idea what " the scheme programming language, yes...
02:02:22 <FireFly> fungot: I think it delimits string literals
02:02:22 <fungot> FireFly: that's easy in basic: 10 print " every problem looks like a minor third harmonic?
02:02:45 <fungot> FireFly: hmm would scheme run good on a stack, what's the action going to pay 80 for a fucking long time alright
02:03:14 <FireFly> fungot: are we talking like 50s computers here?
02:03:14 <fungot> FireFly: llc is you got a quote of how that can be easily modified, the ability to solve problems you need to
02:03:27 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn ==/Did you know you can define == recursively!?
02:29:08 <Sgeo> Is it wrong that I think Plumpy'Nut sounds delicious?
02:29:21 <Sgeo> I mean, it's for use for famine emergencies, not just because it sounds good
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02:45:27 <Phantom_Hoover> "Plumpy'Nut is said to be "surprisingly tasty"." i mean even wikipedia thinks it's perfectly normal
02:50:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: Why, exactly, do you have Plumpy'Nut?
02:50:13 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out a more logical way to write surreal numbers based on additional decimal places
02:50:37 <Sgeo> pikhq, I don't
02:50:42 <oerjan> pikhq: he stole it from starving orphans hth
02:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> you can't write surreal numbers with additional decimal places
02:50:59 <Phantom_Hoover> they are uncountable and cannot be represented by any finite notation
02:51:16 <hppavilion[1]> My current idea is this: the real number is written normally, except with ; instead of . for the decimal (so you can identify the centre)
02:51:19 <coppro> oerjan: if I ever come to finland, how do I avoid you? asking for a friend
02:51:33 <Phantom_Hoover> they are a proper class and cannot be represented by anything 'small'
02:51:37 <oerjan> coppro: that's easy since i'm in norway hth
02:51:54 <oerjan> i've never even been to finland
02:52:00 <Phantom_Hoover> the scheme you are describing will give you some variation on the bog-standard extended reals
02:52:36 <Sgeo> "Sign up for the Plumpy’Nut Challenge. They will send you a box of Plumpy’Nut packets. You must agree to only eat Plumpy’Nut for a few days to a week."
02:52:59 <coppro> wait, I've been to norway!
02:53:22 <hppavilion[1]> Each . after the decimal place is a separator so each the subsequent number is in the region of to ε**c, where c is the . count up to that point (inclusive)
02:54:45 <oerjan> coppro: were you in trondheim? could have been a close call.
02:55:29 <hppavilion[1]> .. instead means tetration, so 31;41..59 is equal to 31.41+59ε**ε
02:56:35 * oerjan is not entirely clear on whether surreal numbers have a decimal expansion even if you allow Omega digits
02:56:53 <oerjan> (Omega = class of all ordinals)
02:57:28 <oerjan> as in, (1) would they have a decimal expansion (2) would the digits be well ordered?
02:57:29 <hppavilion[1]> So 3.14 is actually equal to 3ω+14 in my representation, not to 3.14 (as a real number)
02:58:10 <hppavilion[1]> Now, there are some flaws I can think of with this, but it's better to help people understand the surreals than {|}
02:58:43 <hppavilion[1]> sqrt(ω) isn't equal to sqrt(1)*ω=1*ω=ω, as far as I know. Then again, it might be.
02:59:31 <oerjan> i never really learned beyond multiplication
02:59:49 <oerjan> i just know you can supposedly define lots of stuff
03:00:43 <oerjan> also, i'm not sure i ever learned multiplication properly. i've probably forgotten it again. addition and subtraction are easy though.
03:01:02 <coppro> this was like 6 years ago though
03:02:25 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, and of course, you fill in empty spaces with 0
03:03:28 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm not sure you're defining a notation for surreals and not just ordinals
03:03:58 <oerjan> looks pretty similar to cantor normal form for ordinals
03:04:10 <hppavilion[1]> The surreals are BIG, so I must be missing something xD
03:04:25 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Really? Yay! I made up something that a famous mathematician did something similar to!
03:04:53 <oerjan> not your actual notation.
03:04:59 <hppavilion[1]> Therefor I think vaguely like a certain famous mathematician!
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03:05:23 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ah, that was me showing what it means. Whether that's equivalent to CNF is a matter of what I'm missing.
03:05:38 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I got the infinitessimals too, did you notice?
03:05:56 <oerjan> technically that should be ω**2+ω**0*14 because ordinals are not commutative
03:06:06 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ah no, then that's a bit more
03:08:48 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: OK, so I got reals, numbers multiplied by infinitesimals, the same with powers of infinitesimals, and generally with any infinitesimal to an arbitrary power
03:08:52 <oerjan> huh that last thing messed up a character in irssi
03:09:09 <oerjan> the surreals are commutative, they're essentially a field
03:09:22 <hppavilion[1]> You can also do infinitesimals to a natural power to a- ah, that's something I'm missing
03:10:16 <hppavilion[1]> But I don't think you can do, for example, ε**(ε**2)
03:12:27 <hppavilion[1]> But I think I AM missing ε**n where n is not an integer
03:13:09 <hppavilion[1]> But I got a good chunk of the surreals, so my notation is pretty good
03:13:35 <hppavilion[1]> I doubt it's possible to have a finite notation that can do ALL of the surreals, even with ellipses.
03:20:46 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: You can't have finite notation for all the reals
03:20:51 <FreeFull> And surreals subsume the reals
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03:51:48 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz9Irijq7ps <-- holy shit how did they even
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03:55:35 <\oren\> they even do the camera angles the same...
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05:19:01 <hppavilion[1]> a+bi# = a+bj, a+bj# = a+bi (i**2=-1, j**2=1, j != 1)
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05:27:50 <izabera> also shouldn't that be a+bk**2 = a ?
05:28:07 <izabera> anyway if such k exist, that's not a domain
05:38:34 <hppavilion[1]> I'm rapidly switching tasks, so I sometimes type code that I'm frequently using into chat for something entirely unrelated
05:39:11 <hppavilion[1]> ("What was William Shakespear's last work?" "The coproduct of the category of categories of sets of numbers")
05:39:28 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: a+bk is the dual numbers; k is usually written epsilon, but I prefer k because it's typable
05:40:40 <hppavilion[1]> What is the name of the type of the algebra of numbers ai+bj? It's apparently not a Real 2D Algebra
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06:35:03 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: How about this: i^2 = j^2 = k^2 = ijk = -1
06:35:40 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Yes, yes, you're very clever with the Quaternions or similar hypercomplex number
06:39:26 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: It's literally just the quaternions =P
06:40:04 <hppavilion[1]> Or more accurately, I knew it was at least similar (e.g. Tessarines or Coquaternions or Split-Biquaternions)
06:41:03 <\oren\> hold on are you telling me some of the accented letters aren't even pronounced any diferent from the ones without an accent?!@!?
06:43:18 <\oren\> eh, just reading about accents in general
06:43:56 <pikhq> I bet you hate the (rare) diaresis.
06:44:05 <\oren\> apparently à is the same as à
06:44:08 <\oren\> apparently à is the same as a
06:44:30 <pikhq> Hence why "coöperate" and "cooperate" are pronounced the same.
06:44:51 <FreeFull> The Polish ó and u are pronounced the same
06:45:33 <pikhq> Lemme guess, which you use is based on whether it's an "o" being modified because grammar or not?
06:45:44 <izabera> same for ô and u in my region's dialect
06:46:45 <\oren\> pikhq: that's true for ç in French apparently
06:51:23 <\oren\> holy crap http://www.ortograf.net/
06:57:03 <hppavilion[1]> I'm embedding a secondary CAS in my CAS to make my CAS reduction easier to CAS
06:57:53 <\oren\> nah nah your doing it wrong
06:58:33 <\oren\> Yo I herd yo liek CAS so I put a CAS in yo CAS so u can CAS while you CAS
07:04:54 <pikhq> Fair enough, then.
07:21:37 <FreeFull> The Polish alphabet has 32 letters
07:21:39 <\oren\> what sort of features would be expected of an esoteric human language
07:22:14 <FreeFull> \oren\: Any word can be spoken backwards
07:23:58 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: The subCAS is for the reduce() method of operations objects, which is basically programmed to do some simple reductions to make operations more efficient
07:25:00 <hppavilion[1]> The subCAS isn't a fully-fledged CAS, it's just a little object group with operations defined
07:28:03 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: The ability to discuss mathematics fluently and unambiguously
07:28:35 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Were you the one who rejected my proposal to allow esoconlangs on the wiki?
07:36:59 <myname> also, is there some other youtube channel like xidnaf?
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09:31:11 <hppavilion[1]> "So mathematicians would say that you, Ernestine, and I are not totally ordered under winning at Ping-Pong."
09:37:09 <hppavilion[1]> That does not sound like something I would hear a mathematicians cay
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10:05:30 <HackEgo> U+22AE DOES NOT FORCE \ UTF-8: e2 8a ae UTF-16BE: 22ae Decimal: ⊮ \ ⊮ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ Decomposition: 22A9 0338
10:06:59 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Was your mind.state == blown when you first learned that?
10:08:20 <\oren\> mind.setState(Mind::State_Blown);
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14:31:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[V--]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46067&oldid=12182 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */
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15:15:13 <Sgeo> Happy 2017! https://www.reddit.com/r/shittyaskscience/comments/3yzt84/if_yesterday_was_2015_and_today_is_2016_is/
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15:46:47 <HackEgo> welp/welp is humid kelp, and not at all related to toes, their hairs, and generic requests for TWHes and TDHes.
15:55:41 <HackEgo> csv/CSV猫stands猫for猫Cat猫Separated猫Values
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16:05:53 <Taneb> Exam nervousness ahoy
16:07:02 <boily> Tanelle. you are suffering an exam on which subject today?
16:07:44 <Taneb> Well, I don't have any until Monday
16:07:47 <Taneb> Then I have 5 in four days
16:07:53 <Taneb> The first is formal methods
16:08:34 <Taneb> Then Algebraic Number Theory, then Eodermdrome, then Linear Optimization and Game Theory, then information theory
16:08:48 -!- J_Arcane has joined.
16:09:56 <boily> one of these is not like the other.
16:10:52 <Taneb> https://www.cs.york.ac.uk/modules/grat.html
16:12:14 <boily> Authentication Required.
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16:13:39 <Taneb> The aims of this module are to:
16:13:42 <Taneb> To introduce the foundations of computing by graph transformation
16:13:45 <Taneb> To introduce the principles of rule-based programming in domains of graph-like structures
16:13:59 <Taneb> As a result of studying this module students should: (1) be familiar with the main concepts and results of graph transformation; (2) be able to recognise problems in various areas of computer science as suitable for applying graph transformation; (3) be able to write graph programs for solving problems in graph-like domains and reason about program correctness and complexity.
16:17:37 <Taneb> agawa, what about a profiler
16:18:01 <agawa> said if is it a profiler
16:19:33 <Taneb> I am not sure I understand what you mean
16:21:47 <agawa> thing that we are access-denied
16:22:08 <Taneb> It's the module description
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17:07:21 <HackEgo> diet/People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
17:13:38 <tswett> `run sed -i '' 's/loose/lose' wisdom/diet
17:13:39 <HackEgo> sed: can't read s/loose/lose: No such file or directory
17:13:54 <tswett> `run sed -i 's/loose/lose' wisdom/diet
17:13:55 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 12: unterminated `s' command
17:13:58 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*).
17:14:03 <tswett> `run sed -i 's/loose/lose/' wisdom/diet
17:14:09 <HackEgo> People go on diets to lose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
17:14:23 -!- Frooxius has joined.
17:18:34 <tswett> `run sed -i 's/lose/loose/' wisdom/diet
17:18:41 <HackEgo> People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
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17:56:18 <HackEgo> tswett tswett int-e ais523 oerjan elliott oerjan FireFly
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17:59:06 <ais523> the "ais523" is I think from when I wrote a script to delete random wisdom entries, only it screwed up and did something unintentional
17:59:20 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what, but IIRC the next few names are from people trying to fix it
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18:09:42 <FireFly> The "huh" was mostly because I don't remember what it's supposed to reference, but IIRC it's a verbatim quote from somewhere
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22:12:52 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x232d 0x2335
22:18:59 <\oren\> I'm trying to fill in any remaining gaps in the blocks I have completed
22:23:06 <HackEgo> Thanks, new year. Thew year.
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22:38:48 <tswett> `thanks Mark Rosewater
22:38:49 <HackEgo> Thanks, Mark Rosewater. Thark Rosewater.
22:39:15 <tswett> `? pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism
22:39:17 <HackEgo> pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:39:23 <tswett> `thanks pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism
22:39:24 <HackEgo> Thanks, pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism. Theudopseudohypoparathyroidism.
22:39:36 <tswett> Interesting, that one.
22:39:52 <HackEgo> Thanks, iloquallc. Thiloquallc.
22:40:00 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -CSDA \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
22:41:36 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:42:20 <HackEgo> Thanks, Schrödinger. Thinger.
22:43:44 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:44:58 <tswett> `thanks rødgrød med fløde
22:45:00 <HackEgo> Thanks, rødgrød med fløde. Thed fløde.
22:45:15 <int-e> ö is an interesting consonant...
22:46:50 <tswett> `thanks KILL A PUPPY EVERY DAY.
22:46:51 <HackEgo> Thanks, KILL A PUPPY EVERY DAY.. ThILL A PUPPY EVERY DAY..
22:47:54 <tswett> `run thanks $(loudly Steve)
22:48:30 <tswett> `run loudly $(thanks $(loudly Steve))
22:48:41 <tswett> `run loudly $(loudly $(thanks $(loudly Steve)))
22:48:43 <HackEgo> 04,09T09,04h04,09a09,04n04,09k09,04s04,09,
22:49:48 <HackEgo> cat "$(find evil -type f | shuf -n1)" | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
22:50:38 <int-e> `` echo ß | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
22:50:50 <int-e> `` echo ä | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
22:51:18 <HackEgo> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ
22:54:13 <HackEgo> LANG=C \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="C" \ LC_NUMERIC="C" \ LC_TIME="C" \ LC_COLLATE="C" \ LC_MONETARY="C" \ LC_MESSAGES="C" \ LC_PAPER="C" \ LC_NAME="C" \ LC_ADDRESS="C" \ LC_TELEPHONE="C" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="C" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="C" \ LC_ALL=
22:54:15 <HackEgo> bash: locaqle: command not found
22:54:17 <HackEgo> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ
22:58:39 <hppavilion[1]> I'm designing a programming language for the xkcd phone
22:58:48 <hppavilion[1]> http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=113269
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23:05:20 <\oren\> `` echo lo | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
23:06:39 -!- Welo has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:14:42 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in inp)
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23:21:43 <Taneb> Is a UTM that only runs when its being watched Turing complete?
23:23:14 <oerjan> would seem to require a watcher with unbounded lifespan hth
23:30:47 <b_jonas> it's still Turing complete
23:37:12 <\oren\> just pass down a tradition of watching the UTM in your family
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23:43:24 <b_jonas> Only the observable part of the behavior matters.
23:47:53 <fizzie> "Be officially informed that we have arrested a diplomat [..] with your consignment that contains huge amount of money [..] The diplomat claims that you are DEATH, therefore your consignment is being diverted [..]"
23:49:51 <oerjan> are you DESTROYER OF WORLDS?
23:50:46 <fizzie> Is that the sort of thing you know you are if you are?
23:58:29 <b_jonas> fungot, would you know that you are destroyer of worlds if you were?
23:58:29 <fungot> b_jonas: heh to just pop something from the cvs, and irc protocols. distributing loadable modules and drivers as source and still having them for normal grouping)
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00:00:12 <b_jonas> fungot: loadable bus drivers?
00:00:13 <fungot> b_jonas: what's slides? fnord/ down etc... and not if... let x be the cdr then...
00:00:27 <b_jonas> fungot: you dropped your parenthesis somehwere
00:00:27 <fungot> b_jonas: and what you wrote down. so, you couldn't count various calls at the same time
00:00:34 <fungot> b_jonas: in the subject yet... and i'm failing to see the function fizzie pasted "?" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord....
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00:14:37 <Melvar> `` sed -ire 's/inp\)$/unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))' bin/loudly
00:14:38 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 101: unterminated `s' command
00:14:48 <Melvar> `` sed -ire 's/inp\)$/unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))/' bin/loudly
00:14:49 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 102: Unmatched ) or \)
00:16:31 <Melvar> `` sed -ire 's/inp\)$/unicode\(inp, locale.nl_langinfo\(locale.CODESET\)\)\).encode\(locale.nl_langinfo\(locale.CODESET\)\)/' bin/loudly
00:16:32 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 111: Unmatched ) or \)
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00:18:53 <int-e> `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -e 's/(/)/g'
00:19:19 <int-e> `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -re 's/\(/)/g'
00:19:38 <int-e> `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -re 's/\(/\)/g'
00:20:49 <fizzie> That's funny, an unmatched \( seems to be fine.
00:21:05 <int-e> `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -re 's/\)/\(/g'
00:21:12 <int-e> `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -e 's/\)/\(/g'
00:21:13 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 9: Unmatched ) or \)
00:21:17 <int-e> `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -e 's/\(/\(/g'
00:21:18 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 9: Unmatched ( or \(
00:21:36 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't notice the -r bit.
00:21:43 <fizzie> I don't generally sed -r.
00:23:35 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in inp)
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00:32:18 <oerjan> `` sed -ie 's/inp\)$/unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))/' bin/loudly
00:32:20 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 102: Unmatched ) or \)
00:32:59 <oerjan> `` sed -ie 's/inp[)]$/unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))/' bin/loudly
00:33:07 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))
00:33:22 <oerjan> `loudly Rødgrød med fløde
00:33:24 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/loudly", line 5, in <module> \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET)) \ NameError: name 'locale' is not defined
00:33:49 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:35:21 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:35:51 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/itertools/itertools, locale/' bin/loudly
00:35:59 <oerjan> `loudly Rødgrød med fløde
00:36:01 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/loudly", line 4, in <module> \ cyc = itertools, locale.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'cycle'
00:36:59 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:37:08 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in inp)
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00:38:36 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:38:53 <oerjan> `` sed -i '2s/itertools/itertools, locale/' bin/loudly
00:39:02 <oerjan> `loudly Rødgrød med fløde
00:39:03 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/loudly", line 5, in <module> \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET)) \ UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 1: ordinal not in range(128)
00:39:33 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:41:01 <oerjan> Melvar: YOUR CODE IS NOT WORKING TDNH
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01:04:47 <oerjan> under attack by murphy's law?
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01:08:01 <\oren\> I just lost to Dark Link again
01:11:51 <\oren\> sheik is not good against Dark Link
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01:42:29 <tswett> `loudly Rødgrød med fløde
01:43:15 <oerjan> did Elronnd get stuck in a loop
01:43:44 <Elronnd> insufficient data cannot compute
01:43:49 <tswett> Well... uncomputable in general. Elronnd might be really simple.
01:43:51 <ais523> uncomputable /in general/
01:43:58 <ais523> bleh, you beat me to the correction
01:44:05 <oerjan> `loudly Rødgrød med fløde
01:44:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lskdfjalsdkjf: not found
01:45:02 <tswett> `run loudly é | unidecode
01:45:04 <HackEgo> \ close failed in file object destructor: \ sys.excepthook is missing \ lost sys.stderr
01:46:04 <tswett> `echo one; echo two; echo three
01:50:37 <tswett> `run loudly ë | loudly
01:50:48 <tswett> `run loudly ë | loudly | loudly
01:50:49 <HackEgo> 04,0909,04004,09409,04,04,09009,04904,09,
01:50:53 <tswett> `run loudly ë | loudly | loudly | loudly
01:50:54 <HackEgo> 04,0909,04004,09409,04,04,09009,04904,09,
01:51:00 <tswett> `run loudly ë | loudly | loudly | loudly | loudly
01:51:03 <HackEgo> 04,0909,04004,09409,04,04,09009,04904,09,
01:51:26 <tswett> `run loudly é > 'loudly é'
01:51:35 <tswett> `run unidecode < 'loudly é'
01:52:08 <tswett> `run unidecode $(cat 'loudly é')
01:52:10 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unidecode", line 4, in <module> \ s = u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ File "/usr/lib/python2.7/encodings/utf_8.py", line 16, in decode \ return codecs.utf_8_decode(input, err
02:00:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 'loudly: not found
02:12:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lodly: not found
02:15:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quietly: not found
02:16:42 <ais523> `` cat 'echo' > /bin/quietly
02:16:43 <HackEgo> bash: /bin/quietly: Read-only file system
02:16:49 <ais523> `` cat 'echo' > bin/quietly
02:16:51 <HackEgo> cat: echo: No such file or directory
02:16:58 <ais523> `` echo 'echo' > bin/quietly
02:17:03 <ais523> `` chmod a+x bin/quietly
02:17:19 <ais523> `` echo 'echo " "' > bin/quietly
02:17:33 <ais523> looks like I need an actual character there
02:17:40 <ais523> `` printf 'echo "\xa0"' > bin/quietly
02:17:57 <ais523> how misencoded is /that/?
02:18:02 <ais523> `` printf 'echo "\xc2\xa0"' > bin/quietly
02:18:32 * ais523 tries to work out how HackEgo and/or Konversation deduced three characters of output from a single \xa0
02:18:50 <HackEgo> U+00E2 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH CIRCUMFLEX \ UTF-8: c3 a2 UTF-16BE: 00e2 Decimal: â \ â (Â) \ Uppercase: U+00C2 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: 0061 0302 \ \ U+0080 <control> \ UTF-8: c2 80 UTF-16BE: 0080 Decimal: € \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \
02:22:14 <oerjan> ais523: because HackEgo prepends an zero-width space
02:22:52 <ais523> aha, and the utf-8 zero width space got interpreted as latin-1 because the comment as a whole wasn't valid utf-8?
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03:45:35 <lambdabot> Voters quickly forget what a man says.
03:45:47 <tswett> Wait, that's actually a command?
03:45:52 <lambdabot> The Chinese use two brush strokes to write the word 'crisis.' One brush stroke stands for danger; the other for opportunity. In a crisis, be aware of the danger - but recognize the opportunity.
03:46:01 <lambdabot> You have to face the fact that whole problem is really the blacks. The key is to divise a system that reconizes this while not appearing to...
03:46:13 <tswett> Is @vixen correcting to @nixon?
03:46:16 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
03:46:31 <tswett> @vixen Like, this is just going to give me a Nixon quote or whatever?
03:46:31 <lambdabot> A man who has never lost himself in a cause bigger than himself has missed one of life's mountaintop experiences. Only in losing himself does he find himself. Only then does he discover all the latent strengths he never knew he had and which otherwise would have remained dormant.
03:48:19 <lambdabot> It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob.
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03:49:19 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
03:49:34 <lambdabot> It is here that my cheap workforce of trained iguanas will work
03:49:34 <lambdabot> night and day to make our shoes to my exacting specifications!
03:49:40 <tswett> @prawn Can I give input here?
03:49:52 <tswett> Ooh. I think I've figured out what it is.
03:50:02 <lambdabot> Promise me something, Pinky. Never breed.
03:50:10 <lambdabot> It is here that my cheap workforce of trained iguanas will work
03:50:11 <lambdabot> night and day to make our shoes to my exacting specifications!
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04:03:57 <boily> snarf chew chew garble ^^
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04:45:13 <hppavilion[1]> What happens when you do the Surreals with a left, right, and middle?
04:45:42 <boily> tie-fighter surreals.
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06:31:40 <coppro> I learned to speedrun super mario galaxy today
06:36:37 <\oren\> does it involve hidden warpzones
06:36:42 <pikhq> Gonna show your mad skillz at AGDQ tomorrow?
06:40:41 <coppro> pikhq: that's the plan
06:40:49 <coppro> I'm going to kill miles and take his power
07:33:44 <hppavilion[1]> To make a lambda, we write a \ (because it kind of looks like the greek letter lambda if you squint hard enough)
07:35:50 <hppavilion[1]> For the record, I squinted really hard at a backslash to check and it does indeed resemble λ
07:45:39 <hppavilion[1]> <WassPord> I'm a big fan of 50 Cent. Or, as he's called in Zimbabwe, Four hundred million dollars.
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08:17:07 <hppavilion[1]> Just defined function composition for LispRule (a language supported by λ-Nomic): http://pastebin.com/puNcfqiq
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10:06:29 <hppavilion[1]> Classical Programming: Like functional programming, but classes instead. Entire language is based around creating subclasses and subclassing them
10:06:40 <hppavilion[1]> This is not a language feature; it is the language itself.
10:07:37 <hppavilion[1]> And it's not a way of holding functions in an object; the functions are just there to give the class a body. The language is really just about the classes and operating on them.
10:07:50 <hppavilion[1]> It's not OO, because there aren't objects involved; it's just classes
10:08:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: This part of the topic was the first added in 2016 | The international hub for magic gathering and deployment. | Effi's finest fluffy waffles | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
10:11:17 <zzo38> OK, please do! Either invent such a thing or add to the list of ideas, or just try to figure out more and see if you can
10:11:35 <zzo38> Idea of kind of custom duel deck of Magic: the Gathering cards: Urza vs Mishra, Old vs New, Phyrexian vs Eldrazi, Even Costs vs Odd Costs, West vs East, North vs South, Simplicity vs Complexity.
10:11:48 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Yes, I hope you do; I would want to see it too.
10:13:31 <zzo38> OK, that is another one. If some cards that should be use do not exist officially, make up some custom cards; same apply to all of these custom duel decks though
10:14:18 <hppavilion[1]> What happens when you compose the SYA with itself?
10:14:59 <zzo38> "SYA" meaning what?
10:17:05 <zzo38> O, that is what it is. Yes I have heard of that algorithm
10:17:30 <hppavilion[1]> A converter from infix to goofix in python: def in2goo(infix): return infix[:5]+'... ew.'
10:18:06 <hppavilion[1]> Now that I think about it, it probably just crashes xD
10:20:35 <zzo38> I read the description in Wikipedia, and I am not sure why it should crash.
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11:03:05 <b_jonas> `learn Goofix is an antropomorphic canine arithmetic notation.
11:03:08 <HackEgo> Learned 'goofix': Goofix is an antropomorphic canine arithmetic notation.
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11:14:08 <zzo38> b_jonas: What kind of custom duel deck you like to try to make up? (Since it is duel deck, restrictions about deck size and card duplicates can be ignored if it is deemed worthwhile)
11:16:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: there were some ideas in http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/arcana/1560
11:20:17 <zzo38> OK, but I mean you
11:21:35 <b_jonas> I don't know really. I usually build a deck only for myself, trying to beat an entire metagame of many decks (not that I manage, but that's the goal), rather than a duel
11:29:42 <b_jonas> If I built a deck only against myself, it would be weak and one-sided because it wouldn't defend against strategies other players use.
11:29:46 <b_jonas> I don't think it would be good.
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11:34:24 <zzo38> There should need to be enough interactions between them, whether or not they are good for other formats
11:38:37 <b_jonas> by the way, I was wondering if a "bicubic" casual format could work: namely two players each build half of a cube, then after they comitted to the card pool in their half, the list of cards is revealed, the two are merged, and 4 to 8 players use some sealed deck or draft variants to build decks and sideboards from that pool.
11:43:56 <b_jonas> the two players take the same number of cards, each one can put at most 2 copies of any card, and in total among the two, there should be 100 timed the number of players cards for a sealed deck, and much less than that for most drafts
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11:46:28 <zzo38> That seem it can work I suppose, if you have the ban list and so on still
11:46:47 <Melvar> `` sed -ie 's/inp[)]$/unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding())/' -e '2s/$/, locale' bin/loudly;
11:46:48 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 13: unterminated `s' command
11:47:11 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in inp)
11:47:17 <Melvar> `` sed -ie 's/inp[)]$/unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding())/' -e '2s/$/, locale/' bin/loudly;
11:47:20 <HackEgo> sed: can't read s/inp[)]$/unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding())/: No such file or directory
11:48:19 <Melvar> `` sed -i -e 's/inp[)]$/unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding())/' -e '2s/$/, locale/' bin/loudly
11:48:44 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools, locale, locale \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding())
11:48:59 <int-e> urgh, and that has been the problem all this time... missed it
11:49:17 <int-e> (using -i the wrong way)
11:49:37 <Melvar> Well it would have worked as long as there was only one script.
11:49:53 <int-e> well, you had -ire there...
11:50:11 <int-e> and the -r was kind of important
11:54:28 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/loudly", line 5, in <module> \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding()) \ UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 1: ordinal not in range(128)
11:55:14 <Melvar> Exactly as expected. ∑:3
12:00:55 <b_jonas> Sure, ban list is fine, and you'd need normal limited deck-building rules: at least 40 cards in main deck, all the rest of your picks is sideboard, as many basic lands as you want.
12:03:13 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, although you should say "as many conventional basic lands as you want", since you aren't allowed to add nonconventional basic lands unless available in your card pool (whether draft or sealed)
12:04:22 <zzo38> Two-players limited format is possible such as Solomon draft, although other formats are also possible with two players
12:04:39 <b_jonas> since there will about to be six different extra basic lands very soon
12:04:49 <zzo38> I prefer the term "conventional basic lands"
12:05:03 <zzo38> (I don't know if an official term exists though)
12:05:04 <b_jonas> ok, make it conventional basic lands
12:11:59 <b_jonas> also, AGDQ starts very soon
12:14:33 <b_jonas> haavard: um, no. they're all colorless. the rat thing doesn't count because it's not a land.
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12:21:03 <lambdabot> LOWI 031150Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW006 SCT080 05/02 Q1008 R08/29//95 NOSIG
12:21:46 <int-e> (and a bit of snow on the ground... melting)
12:23:51 <lambdabot> EGLL 031150Z AUTO 15018KT 9999 -RA OVC010/// //////TCU 09/08 Q0989 BECMG RA
12:23:53 <b_jonas> there was snow here too two days abo
12:24:18 <fizzie> I think I dreamed there was snow here, but there hasn't been any.
12:27:31 <haavard> How do you decode that information? I assume it's easier than it looks..
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12:32:17 <fizzie> At airport EGLL, the 03'th day of the month, 11:50 UTC, don't know about AUTO, wind direction 150 degrees and speed 18 knots, visibility "good", light (-) rain (RA) but increasing (BECMG RA), overcast cloud cover at 10 hundred feet, buncha weird slashes, temperature 9 degrees and dew point 8, barometric pressure 989 hectopascals.
12:33:00 <fizzie> The formatting varies a bit between airports.
12:33:34 <fizzie> AUTO is apparently "no humans were harmed^Winvolved during the production of this report".
12:37:46 <fizzie> This is the kind of weather I was expecting when we moved here.
12:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> do finns seek humidity because it reminds them of a sauna
12:38:29 <b_jonas> has anyone made an esolang yet where the source code masquarades as metar output lines?
12:42:23 <lambdabot> ENZV 031220Z 11013KT 9999 FEW048 01/M09 Q1014 TEMPO 12022G32KT
12:42:56 <Phantom_Hoover> the intel 4004 had more general-purpose registers than x86-32
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12:54:28 <fizzie> Quite a bit "less general-purpose", though.
13:02:46 <myname> A whole IDE built in a browser sounds ridiculous until you try using a whole IDE built in Java.
13:03:32 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: the original 386 didn't have any general purpose registers. it was the later SSE2 extension that added those to the x86_32 arch. in the original 386, you had to do all the general purpose arithmetic in the painfully small (32 bit sized) index registers, or in the limited floating point registers.
13:05:51 <b_jonas> That is, by the way, also the situation in contemporary Linux x86_64 kernels in the main kernel outside of kernel threads, because for some historical compatibility nonsense,
13:06:57 <b_jonas> the kernel shies away from using the general purpose registers, for using them would introduce SEVERAL CYCLES OF PRECIOUS TASK SWITCH PENALTY each time you switch to an x86_32 task compiled in an obsolate way so it itself doesn't use those general purpose registers.
13:08:01 <b_jonas> The kernel doesn't use the xmm register, because if it did, then every time there's a task switch, the cpu would have to automatically save and restore those registers, even if one of those processes doesn't use them.
13:08:12 <b_jonas> It's just hilarious, and all for the bad historical reasons.
13:08:46 <b_jonas> And this isn't even really imposed by the cpu. The kernel could break this nonsense any time if the Linux developers just so willed to switch a switch.
13:09:01 <b_jonas> But they're afraid of traditions and microbenchmarks and stuff like that making them look bad.
13:10:18 <b_jonas> It doesn't matter that most of the actual computations of the kernel could be done much faster by the occasional use of those xmm registers, if they just made some trivial changes in the kernel compilation options and the compiler to use them.
13:10:45 <b_jonas> Because then you'd have to load or store SEVERAL WORDS FROM THE MEMORY EACH (rare case) TASK SWITCH and oh look how bad that would make us look like oh the pain!
13:10:55 <b_jonas> These kernel guys are sissies.
13:12:27 <fizzie> If it's that trivial to do, surely someone has done it and demonstrated the real-world gains from this vague "much faster" execution of "most of the actual computations of the kernel" in a thing you could refer to?
13:12:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: well, it's not _that_ trivial. it would need some changes in the compiler.
13:13:13 <b_jonas> and I hope someone has actually tried it, or else I'm misunderstanding something so much that it's obvious to real kernel people why it wouldn't work.
13:13:35 <b_jonas> and mind you, you can put the heavy computation (like crypto) into kernel threads, and then those can use the xmm.
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13:49:23 <\oren\> I prefer the 6502 it has 256 general purpose registers.
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13:57:10 <int-e> is that one of the processors with a special addressing mode for the first 256 bytes of memory?
13:57:57 <\oren\> specifically it can do things like increment a given byte in the zero page
13:58:49 <\oren\> or indirectly index a byte in memory by an address in zero page
13:59:03 <\oren\> so they sort of act like general purpose registers
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14:31:11 <lifthrasiir> okay, I'll rewrite the whole thing in Rust when Unison's process.py reaches 2000 lines of code
14:32:06 <izabera> https://arin.ga/LttQ8b/raw is this esoteric?
14:32:58 <haavard> Looks like a roman numerals parser
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16:10:24 <HackEgo> phantom___hoover/Phantom___Hoover sucks at ghosting himself.
16:20:23 <HackEgo> drone/drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
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16:23:30 <HackEgo> ethanol/Ethanol is a Group 1 carcinogenic substance since 1988.
16:33:15 <HackEgo> zimbabwe/olsner's desk points zimbabwards. it is highly dependent on tswett's michiganic orientation.
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16:50:28 <b_jonas> there's GTA and mario maker and super monkey ball and lots of games
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16:54:17 <coppro> boily: gamesdonequick.com
16:55:16 <b_jonas> `learn AGDQ is Awesome Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity
16:55:21 <b_jonas> `learn SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity
16:55:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'agdq': AGDQ is Awesome Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity
16:55:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'sgdq': SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity
16:56:13 <b_jonas> `learn AGDQ is Awesome Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity ever winter, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/
16:56:18 <HackEgo> Learned 'agdq': AGDQ is Awesome Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity ever winter, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/
16:56:23 <b_jonas> `learn SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity ever summer, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/
16:56:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'sgdq': SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity ever summer, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/
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17:22:59 <boily> quinthellopiaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
17:25:21 <boily> last day of vacation! but I had a turkey tomato mayo bagel.
17:25:40 <boily> are you atlantaing?
17:27:50 <quintopia> the weather finally colded slightly
17:28:52 <boily> I'm cubing with the bro. want to join the server?
17:55:28 <ais523> ugh, the very worst level in Enigma is a rubik's cube simulator
17:55:37 <ais523> the reason why it's so bad is that it also has reverse floor and swamp and abyss
17:55:46 <ais523> stick to one puzzle at a time, people!
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17:59:15 <ais523> oh wow, 6% in metroid prime 2 is now faster single-segment than 100%
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18:07:02 <coppro> the discovery of MBI in Sanctuary was huge
18:07:18 <ais523> oh, don't have to smuggle it all the way from the other end of the map
18:07:28 <ais523> now I sort-of want to see a "low% without item loss skip"
18:10:05 <coppro> it's also way way easier to do now, because you don't have to use IS which means no lightshow
18:10:26 <coppro> (it was discovered that you don't need IS to get MBI; you just need to activate a cannon without a properly loaded room)
18:10:39 <ais523> for some reason I thought the hardest part was amber translator skip
18:11:24 <coppro> are you talking about sanddigger or something else?
18:12:13 <ais523> no, it's some really hard wallcrawl to get around one gate, I forget exactly where but IIRC it's between one of the main areas and temple grounds
18:12:22 <ais523> the hard part is the getting OoB in the first place
18:12:29 <coppro> you can actually avoid that now thanks to the MBI
18:12:39 <coppro> I dunno if it's faster though
18:14:29 <coppro> hive dash is still not grand abyss, though
18:15:50 <ais523> and you need screw attack to do the walljumps to the final boss, right?
18:17:19 <ais523> thus grand abyss is in every non-grapple-beam category
18:17:41 <ais523> (the skip, that is; the room is in every category full stop)
18:18:36 <coppro> did you hear about the Wii U trilogy edition of Prime 3, btw?
18:19:00 <ais523> also I don't have a Wii U so it doesn't interest me that much, and I'd be shocked if they hadn't patched all the fun out ;-)
18:19:18 <coppro> despite having all of the trilogy "fixes" which ruin many speed tricks, it is faster in some (can't remember if all) categories than the original because of the improved loading times
18:19:30 <coppro> that's how bad loading is on Prime 3 T_T
18:20:10 <ais523> I thought the only speed trick that was patched out between corruption and trilogy3 was hazard shield skip
18:20:23 <coppro> no, they changed a number of small things
18:20:46 <ais523> (which is a ridiculous thing to patch out because it seems unlikely to make the game unwinnable, the hardest part to get past without hazard shield is the one where the skip happens)
18:22:02 <coppro> I'm excited for the Prime run Tuesday, it now includes IS
18:22:25 <coppro> oh man, if they could get Zoid on to talk about IS...
18:22:27 <b_jonas> I'm excited for the GTA3 run
18:22:35 <ais523> coppro: I doubt he knows what causes it
18:23:08 <coppro> ais523: me neither. But it would be funny to hear him wtf, especially if he's not seen it be used to grab Wave before
18:23:31 <coppro> ais523: speaking of which, I've been thinking of making a web application to store speedrun trick & routing information
18:23:45 <coppro> sort of like a domain-specific wiki, sort of in the style of M2K2
18:24:18 <ais523> coppro: TASvideos and SDA each have one of their own of those, and people hardly update them
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18:24:31 <b_jonas> Two years ago, AGDQ was a small event. Now it's huge.
18:24:57 <ais523> b_jonas: the first SGDQ was just held at one of the runners' houses
18:25:13 <coppro> ais523: but they're not domain-specific
18:25:16 <coppro> they're just generic wikis
18:25:33 <b_jonas> coppro: how would it differ from ordinary wikis?
18:25:53 <b_jonas> there are a few wiki sites for specific games
18:26:40 <coppro> mediawiki in particular has a lot of excess syntax that makes using it for domain-specific stuff a lot of work, because you're trying to store all the data in flat text files in the end
18:26:47 <coppro> and the text syntax is atrocious to boot
18:27:34 <coppro> I'm thinking something like defining a few types of objects (categories, routes, tricks, techniques, areas) and defining the links between them in a more consistent way
18:27:50 <coppro> possibly with an API as well
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18:29:25 <coppro> it's nice for simple applications
18:29:35 <coppro> but complicated stuff is torture, especially anything involving tables or nested conditionals in templates
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18:31:29 <coppro> ais523: last line was <coppro> but complicated stuff...
18:31:46 <ais523> <coppro> possibly with an API as well
18:32:10 <coppro> 13:29:15 < b_jonas> I like mediawiki syntax.
18:32:10 <coppro> 13:29:25 < coppro> it's nice for simple applications
18:32:10 <coppro> 13:29:35 < coppro> but complicated stuff is torture, especially anything involving tables or nested conditionals in templates
18:32:37 <ais523> most wiki syntaxes are much worse at complex stuff than mediawiki's
18:32:46 <ais523> (this is not saying that mediawiki's is good)
18:33:26 <coppro> Yeah, but the idea would be to move complex stuff into the domain
18:33:44 <ais523> how much complex stuff is there?
18:34:08 <coppro> The relationships between things, especially
18:34:19 <coppro> also mediawiki sucks at video embedding
18:34:37 <coppro> which is part of the reason no one likes it for speedrunning: you need somewhere else to keep videos
18:38:44 <b_jonas> coppro: if you really want complex stuff, you can extend mediawiki. except that you need a little php so it's yucky and nobody does that.
18:39:16 <coppro> so a domain-specific site that actually has data models for things is better than a wiki
18:39:56 <coppro> it comes with the standard domain-specific tradeoffs: it becomes easier to manipulate data, especially by scripts. You lose genericity and doing things not contemplated in advance is more difficult/impossible
18:40:02 <coppro> MediaWiki also lacks a good commenting system
18:40:29 <ais523> people say that, but I actually really like the : :: method of commenting
18:40:31 <ais523> so many people mess it up though
18:40:41 <ais523> so maybe the problem is that its commenting system is unintuitive
18:41:40 <coppro> you can't sort comments, you need to remember to add signatures...
18:42:42 <ais523> what do you mean by sorting comments?
18:42:49 <ais523> switching between threaded and threadless discussion?
18:42:59 <coppro> or sorting threads by most recent post
18:43:08 <coppro> the way to see the most recent comment is look at the hisotry
18:46:01 <coppro> I like MIME types in concept but they leave something to be desired
18:48:35 <coppro> there really isn't a reasonable way to express the distinction between container and content, except quadratically
18:48:50 <coppro> or through other means, like Content-Encoding header in HTTP
18:49:11 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: yes, like application/foo+json, application/foo+xml
18:49:22 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: one mime type for each container/content pair
18:49:23 <coppro> you need a different datatype for every format of the same data
18:49:33 <coppro> worse if you try to use wrappers like gzip
18:49:38 <coppro> do you add application/foo+json+gzip?
18:49:55 <coppro> since the spec requires them to be registered separately, it becomes unwieldy
18:52:50 <coppro> the notion of designing a "pure" hypertext API is quite interesting
19:02:47 <b_jonas> coppro: IMO, if people just made html websites reasonable so they contain actual content rather than fluff, and put a few class and id attributes in the right places, then we generally wouldn't need a separate fancy xml-based api for websites, because the normal html api would work fine.
19:02:55 <b_jonas> That would also make the ordinary html interface better.
19:03:08 <b_jonas> Also, people stop truncating lists of page numbers. That just doesn't make SENSE!
19:03:27 <b_jonas> coppro: of course, this isn't always true, sometimes you would still need multiple methods
19:03:34 <b_jonas> but I think for most of the cases it would work
19:03:43 <coppro> what I am toying with is using html as one content-type on the same routes
19:03:55 <coppro> so the "API" is not really a separate thing, just a way of rendering the same information
19:04:27 <b_jonas> seriously, what's with all those pages truncating lists of page number lists?
19:04:30 <coppro> HTML is, despite its name, not ideal for HTTP though
19:04:41 <coppro> for instance it only supports GET and POST unless you add Javascript
19:04:46 <b_jonas> are you getting paid for every extra click you get?
19:04:49 <coppro> so you end up with things like Ember
19:05:13 <b_jonas> it appears even on pages with no ads
19:05:36 <b_jonas> I usually don't see the ads
19:05:42 <b_jonas> I have a strong enough mental filter
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19:06:43 <b_jonas> I started to pump this chair ball with air but I don't have the valce cap handy
19:06:56 <b_jonas> it's leaking slowly even while the pump's attached
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19:12:08 <vanila> + printf is turing complete
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19:17:45 <coppro> b_jonas: the fact that HTML's idiosyncracies have made it incompatible with good web design is a shame
19:20:20 <b_jonas> And if the series is a commercial success, then they make two more bad movies or two more bad seasons of it, and since you're watching it in order, the bad parts are all that you remember, not the first seasons or movies that made it a success.
19:22:36 <coppro> ais523: you haven't done any web design, have you?
19:23:02 <ais523> coppro: only a small amount, I wouldn't call myself good at it
19:23:27 <ais523> those job interview questions you linked me, I'd have had to look up details of CSS to answer (the algo side is easy, the webdev side less so for me)
19:23:37 <b_jonas> coppro: not much really, it's just how a lot of popular book series, movie series, and tv series work.
19:23:51 <b_jonas> only people don't really agree where exactly the Dune books start to be bad
19:24:01 <b_jonas> for some series there's a more obvious cutoff
19:25:14 <b_jonas> if the series is succesful, it can't avoid that death, it can only postpone it
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19:26:44 <vanila> why nobody cares about brainfuck in printf????
19:26:49 <b_jonas> M:tG is in an even worse situation by the way. Unlike with film series, even if they could predict which is the last good block, they can't just choose to not make blocks after that one, because if there's no next block, that reduces the value of the current blocka lot.
19:27:24 <coppro> ais523: I'm talking more about things like URI and API design
19:29:50 <ais523> coppro: I like the "the simplest thing that could possibly work" approach to those
19:30:47 <ais523> I don't have much to justify this approach with, though
19:30:50 <ais523> mostly just personal preference
19:31:01 <ais523> e.g. on the NH4 blog, I choose the URIs manually
19:31:11 <coppro> yeah, but it's a static site
19:31:22 <coppro> doesn't need anything fancy
19:31:59 <ais523> I've actually never written a dynamic website
19:32:06 <ais523> this is due to growing up with browsers, but no Internet and no servers
19:32:23 <ais523> my notion of "dynamic" was DHTML :-)
19:34:19 <ais523> that said there are huge advantages to using a static page generator over CGI; sometimes this isn't possible, but whenever it's possible, IMO it's either clearly ridiculous or the best option
19:35:39 <b_jonas> ais523: when I made the mirror at http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/comic/millie/ I was wondering for a while if I should make the html pages of the individual strips staticly generated pages or a single dynamic CGI.
19:36:26 <ais523> assuming every page is generated at least once and that the ratio of disk space cost to CPU time cost is favourable (it usually is), you typically want the static generation
19:36:30 <b_jonas> I haven't done much website stuff yet, but should eventually try to do a little bit more. Not as a carreer, but only to make a web interface for some things I make.
19:36:40 <ais523> the only exception I can think of involves if disk bandwidth becomes a bottleneck
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19:36:54 <ais523> (which it does for large sites, but they're typically using memcached anyway, or even cloudflare)
19:38:22 <vanila> do you have any stuff in this years AGDQ
19:38:37 <agawa> hello anyone has infos about new eso-lang matl ?
19:39:15 <vanila> https://esolangs.org/wiki/MATL
19:40:38 <agawa> there is no online compiler for this ?
19:40:46 <ais523> vanila: the TASbot team has something planned, yes; I was involved a few weeks ago helping with some of the planning, but only had a very small part in it
19:41:06 <int-e> vanila: it's hard to pay attention between all the other 32c3 stuff :P
19:41:16 <vanila> yeah 32cs was loads of fun
19:41:24 <b_jonas> ais523: only a small part? ow. I was kind of hoping you'd finished the vanilla nethack DOS tas or something.
19:41:27 <vanila> there's heaps of talks left i want to see
19:41:45 <b_jonas> though that would be almost entirely unsuitable for a GDQ tas block
19:41:46 <vanila> int-e, was there any eso-relevant stuff?
19:41:56 <vanila> the only eso thing i saw was the printf thing
19:42:06 <b_jonas> there was some zelda thing
19:42:18 <int-e> vanila: well the printf-brainfuck is from https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7163-new_memory_corruption_attacks_why_can_t_we_have_nice_things apparently
19:42:19 <vanila> b_jonas, brainfuck encoded in printf format string
19:42:30 <ais523> quintopia: err, 3SP doesn't print every command, it only prints on each main loop iteration
19:42:44 <ais523> so your PPCG submission doesn't work
19:42:56 <ais523> (printing anything meaningful in 3SP is very difficult, which is why I was surprised you'd done it)
19:43:07 <ais523> did you try running the program through an interp?
19:44:44 <ais523> actually that might be an interp bug
19:46:50 <vanila> https://github.com/lmendo/MATL
19:47:10 <vanila> http://tryitonline.net/
19:50:00 <coppro> ais523: eh, that's not even what I'm talking about :)
19:51:00 <quintopia> ais523: I must have misunderstood your spec when I wrote my python implementation.
19:51:28 <ais523> quintopia: try the C interp for a comparison
19:51:44 <quintopia> Today in brainfuck news: Hello, World! is now down to 87 bytes
19:51:47 <ais523> "then whenever the second cell is odd at the end of one cycle of execution of the program"
19:51:51 <ais523> quintopia: is that a new record?
19:52:02 <ais523> that's actually pretty major news
19:52:04 <vanila> quintopia, how was this found?
19:52:06 <ais523> what's the exact spelling?
19:52:13 <ais523> (it matters for hello world golf)
19:52:38 <coppro> ais523: the principles underlying HTTP are quite interesting
19:52:46 <coppro> I read Roy Fielding's thesis over the break and it's given me a lot to think about
19:52:57 <b_jonas> quintopia: put it up on the esowiki
19:53:09 <vanila> quintopia, did you use a computer search
19:53:18 <ais523> quintopia: right, I was thinking that "Hello, world!" would be shorter than "Hello, World!"
19:53:23 <quintopia> also there is a new 394 byte quine (requiring wrapping)
19:54:11 <ais523> quintopia: is that the record for positive-length quines?
19:54:38 <vanila> positive-length got me thinking, source code of negative length
19:55:11 <quintopia> quintopia: no, but it is probably a record among quines using only printable characters
19:55:56 <quintopia> (TIL that Irssi will auto-complete my own nick)
19:55:59 <ais523> haha, I hadn't considered that non-,.<>+-[] characters might make quinewriting easier
19:56:17 <ais523> ais523: Konversation will also tab-complete my nick
19:56:23 <ais523> which is useful when ctcp-ing myself
19:56:33 <quintopia> ais523: DB Cristofani's is 392 bytes, but the last character is SUB
19:56:34 <vanila> quintopia, please reply
19:57:17 <vanila> those links were for mauris
19:57:28 <vanila> i would like to know where this new hello world is from
19:58:25 <vanila> is this information not allowed to be relased yet?
19:58:38 <mauris> hi? i don't follow (i haven't been reading)
19:59:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46068&oldid=44542 * Quintopia * (+176) /* Examples */
19:59:34 <quintopia> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/55422/hello-world/68494#68494
20:00:13 <mauris> ah yes, primo/mitchs are amazing at golf :)
20:00:16 <ais523> ooh, that is a clever way to do it
20:00:27 <ais523> print hello, while leaving world on the tape
20:00:33 <ais523> and use a loop to print the world
20:01:31 <quintopia> indeed. plus a brute force search for the optimal starting tape values
20:02:34 <quintopia> < ais523> and use a loop to print the world <-- ALEX'S WORLD DOMINATION SCHEME REVEALED
20:03:08 <quintopia> (i'm just sad you didn't add peals of maniacal laughter afterward)
20:04:02 <ais523> wasn't my idea, nor my program, I'm just explaining it to the channel
20:04:09 <ais523> also maniacal laughter isn't really my style
20:05:25 <mauris> i'm so confused, why did vanila ping me
20:06:48 <ais523> vanila: pinging random people for no reason normally gets you in trouble
20:06:50 <vanila> http://tryitonline.net/
20:06:55 <vanila> https://github.com/lmendo/MATL
20:07:05 <agawa> matl isnt listed among online compilers thu
20:07:23 <ais523> btw, is tryitonline owned by a code golfer? there seem to be a lot of esolangs in there for no obvious reason
20:08:06 <ais523> the name was too generic
20:08:12 <mauris> ok, so you're a troll.
20:08:13 <agawa> its so naivly designed
20:08:55 <quintopia> ais523: so, clearly my variant of 3SP needs a different name to distinguish it from the original. Suggestions?
20:09:20 <ais523> something along the lines of "three star programmer with super-fast IO", but more marketingspeaky
20:09:24 <ais523> I'm not very good at marketingspeak though
20:10:25 <ais523> you can add it as a section to the article if you like, probably beats making a new article for such a small variation
20:11:31 <ais523> the reasons 3SP only checks once each cycle are: a) efficiency; b_jonas doesn't like it when I make esolangs that run impractically slow; b) otherwise you have to modulate the output-on variable in bursts to avoid being spammed with increasing ASCII
20:11:57 <ais523> haavard: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Three_Star_Programmer
20:12:01 <myname> he should implement eodermdrome!
20:12:04 <ais523> quintopia abbreviates it to "3SP"
20:12:17 <haavard> b_jonas: googling "esolangs" and "3SP" gave a single result, a log from here
20:12:26 <b_jonas> I'd actually added a redirect from 3SP to the wiki already
20:12:48 <ais523> haavard: we added a search hint to the wiki's search engine very recently so that entering 3SP into the search box will take you to the right place
20:12:56 <ais523> don't know if external search engines even index those though
20:13:13 <haavard> Doesn't look like they do, unfortunately
20:13:20 <ais523> myname: eodermdrome probably wins the stakes for "ais523 languages that people have seriously thought about implementing but never succeeded"
20:13:52 <ais523> b_jonas: a redirect is a search hint, pretty much
20:13:53 <myname> ais523: that's intruiging
20:14:04 <ais523> that's how they're mostly used at Wikipedia, for instance
20:14:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46069&oldid=46040 * Quintopia * (+354) Distinguish noisy variant.
20:14:28 <vanila> agawa, anyway i hope that link is useful i am SO SORRY for accidentally getting the wrong name earlier
20:14:59 <vanila> yeah some idiot called me a troll for it
20:15:17 <agawa> if u are abov 1m 60 u arent a troll
20:15:20 <ais523> vanila: explaining earlier would probably have defused the situation somewhat
20:15:44 <ais523> agawa: that is a pretty unusual definition of "troll", although I can't say I 100% disagree with it :-)
20:16:27 <b_jonas> we haven't seen them much since the fall of the Dark Lord, luckily
20:16:46 <b_jonas> some say they all turned to stone in the Sun, but I think they're still hiding out somewhere, waiting for a new evil master to serve
20:17:24 <quintopia> ais523: I like the idea of modulating it in bursts. It's not hard to toggle on and then immediately off.
20:18:03 <quintopia> but then "not hard" might be against the spirit of your original design
20:18:27 <ais523> the original idea was purely "is this TC by itself?"
20:18:31 <ais523> wasn't intended specifically for difficulty
20:19:55 <quintopia> In fact, I'm thinking of redesigning Platts so that output happens as soon as it has been toggled. And maybe change the input method too. It would be nice to be able to compile ResPlicate to Platts. Or Noisy 3SP to Platts.
20:20:07 -!- jaboja has joined.
20:22:33 <ais523> ooh, I hadn't seen Platts
20:22:43 <ais523> concrete syntax for tag systems, along the lines of BCT or PMMN?
20:23:50 -!- Alcest has joined.
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21:34:52 <ais523> idea I just had: a language in which stdin is appended to the program before it starts running, thus the null program is a self-interpreter
21:35:51 <vanila> its funny that you can write an interpreter without even saying anything about the language
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21:36:39 <ais523> now we can start to work out what other properties the language needs to have
21:37:08 <ais523> to be interesting, it shouldn't be able to read its own source, otherwise the special feature pretty much collapses
21:37:14 <ais523> this in turn implies you have to be able to redefine commands
21:38:19 <ais523> if we assume the program stops running at EOF, this means that your program has to handle the possibility that it might have no more input, and thus just exit
21:38:48 <ais523> this means it shouldn't output in "realtime", presumably this means that we output what's left on some internal storage (maybe a stack) when the program stops running
21:39:14 <ais523> huh, that'd actually lead to a really interesting outcome if we output the /entirety/ of internal storage
21:39:44 <ais523> it means that you need to be able to deduce the output from input x++y, from y and the output from input x
21:40:11 <ais523> that doesn't break TCness, but it does mean you can't write a BF interpreter
21:40:46 <ais523> because, e.g., you couldn't tell if a program had leading + signs on
21:41:00 <ais523> without programs like +++ producing output
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21:44:35 <ais523> I guess you could add a side-channel for encoding internal state, like printing output mod 256 (so that larger values could be used to track stuff inside the internals), but that'd just lead to reasonably uninspired minsky-ing on the first or last character of output
21:49:59 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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22:07:37 <\oren\> minskying? I minski, she minskies, I have minskied.
22:11:22 <ais523> your minsky may vary :-D
22:11:41 <ais523> but by "minskying" I meant "encoding the entire state of the program into a single integer"
22:19:34 <\oren\> `le/rn minski/to minski on : /mɪnskiː/ To act as a minski machine on; of a program or programming language, to encode its entire state into the object as a single integer.
22:33:57 <HackEgo> cat: bin/le\/rn: No such file or directory
22:34:41 <FireFly> is it an alias or something?
22:36:20 <ais523> FireFly: have you seen Acme::Don't in Perl?
22:36:42 <ais523> (the joke, apart from the uselessness of a don't operator (it's the opposite of do), is how they got an apostrophe into the name of a keyword)
22:38:25 <FireFly> I have not, but alas I don't actually know Perl :<
22:40:29 -!- agawa has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:41:06 -!- agawa has joined.
22:44:46 <zgrep> FireFly: Acme::Don::t
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22:57:57 <tswett> \oren\: the present participle of "minski" would have to be "minskiing".
23:00:25 <tswett> I think the only orthographical changes that are allowed in English present participles are chopping off a final silent "e", and doubling the final consonant.
23:05:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:11:29 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> <WassPord> I'm a big fan of 50 Cent. Or, as he's called in Zimbabwe, Four hundred million dollars. <-- you know a joke is old when it refers to a no longer existing currency hth
23:15:51 <lambdabot> uptime: 21d 4h 59m 21s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
23:24:28 <izabera> Proceed with this action? [y/N]: y
23:24:31 <izabera> Please type 'Y[es]' or 'N[o]' to make selection
23:25:08 <oerjan> `` find | grep '[.]e$'
23:26:19 <oerjan> my brain hasn't reserved space for find's options.
23:30:07 <int-e> `` find -samefile canary
23:31:00 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 shachaf ais523 oerjan oerjan ais523 oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 ais523 shachaf int-e oerjan elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull c00kiemon5ter Phantom_Hoover elliott oerjan shachaf elliott ais523 e
23:31:37 <oerjan> that's the norwegian way to spell *chirp* phonetically hth
23:32:45 <int-e> `` culprits canary | sed -e s/oerjan/ø/g -e s/elliott/é/g
23:32:49 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 shachaf ais523 oerjan oerjan ais523 oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 ais523 shachaf int-e oerjan elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull c00kiemon5ter Phantom_Hoover elliott oerjan shachaf elliott ais523 e
23:33:50 <izabera> `` culprits canary | od -An -c
23:33:54 <HackEgo> o e r j a 017 n o e r j a 017 n \ o e r j a 017 n a i s 5 2 017 3 \ s h a c h a 017 f a i s 5 2 017 3 \ o e r j a 017 n o e r j a 017 n \ a i s 5 2 017 3 o e r j a 017 n \ o e
23:34:06 <izabera> `` culprits canary | od -An -tx1c
23:34:09 <HackEgo> 6f 65 72 6a 61 0f 6e 20 6f 65 72 6a 61 0f 6e 20 \ o e r j a 017 n o e r j a 017 n \ 6f 65 72 6a 61 0f 6e 20 61 69 73 35 32 0f 33 20 \ o e r j a 017 n a i s 5 2 017 3 \ 73 68 61 63 68 61 0f 66 20 61 69 73 35 32 0f 33 \ s h a
23:34:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/canary
23:34:22 <HackEgo> 0000000: 6f65 726a 610f 6e20 6f65 726a 610f 6e20 oerja.n oerja.n \ 0000010: 6f65 726a 610f 6e20 6169 7335 320f 3320 oerja.n ais52.3 \ 0000020: 7368 6163 6861 0f66 2061 6973 3532 0f33 shacha.f ais52.3 \ 0000030: 206f 6572 6a61 0f6e 206f 6572 6a61 0f6e oerja.n oerja.n \ 0000040: 2061 6973 3532 0f33 206f 6572 6a61 0f6e ais52.3 oerja.n \ 00000
23:34:23 <int-e> `culprits-c canary
23:34:28 <HackEgo> 14 oerjan 11 elliott 10 ais523 3 shachaf 1 Phantom_Hoover 1 nitia 1 int-e 1 FreeFull 1 c00kiemon5ter
23:34:47 <izabera> see? there's an extra character in oerjan
23:35:02 <int-e> right, makes sense
23:36:15 <int-e> `` culprits canary | sed -e s/oerja.n/ø/g -e s/elliot.t/é/g
23:36:18 <HackEgo> ø ø ø ais523 shachaf ais523 ø ø ais523 ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ais523 ais523 ais523 shachaf int-e ø é é é é é é é ais523 ais523 é FreeFull c00kiemon5ter Phantom_Hoover é ø shachaf é ais523 é ais523 nitia
23:36:30 <int-e> izabera: because of hilighting http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/f267da928345/bin/culprits
23:38:32 <HackEgo> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
23:40:14 * oerjan wonders if int-e needs that explained
23:40:33 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/nitia
23:40:43 <int-e> oerjan: no, not really
23:41:17 -!- Taneb has changed nick to nitia.
23:41:25 <nitia> I am not sure why I have this registered
23:42:00 -!- nitia has changed nick to Taneb.
23:42:05 <oerjan> 's related to that wisdom
23:42:58 <Taneb> I'll save that in case my gender becomes painfully fluid
23:43:52 <int-e> (ina would be the sister of initia, but she's not been born yet)
23:45:16 <int-e> oerjan: the BBC thing had me confused for a while but google helps
23:45:58 <HackEgo> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets and tiny elfs.
23:46:51 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
23:47:09 <oerjan> int-e: they have a middle sister named estin hth
23:47:29 * oerjan cannot remember which file
23:47:35 <int-e> wisdom repeats itself
23:53:12 <oerjan> <haavard> @metar enzv <-- NOOOOO it cannot be....
23:53:39 * oerjan feels his uniqueness fading
23:53:45 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/monqy
23:53:48 <HackEgo> Bike FreeFull oerjan FreeFull elliott oerjan shachaf shachaf elliott nitia
23:54:42 <haavard> oerjan: don't worry, I'm going to ENVA in a week ;)
23:54:47 <int-e> `culprits useless_file.txt
23:54:47 <lambdabot> EGNM 032350Z 13005KT 2000 BR SCT003 05/05 Q0980
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23:55:03 <int-e> oerjan: that's the one
23:55:14 <oerjan> haavard: yes but are you actually norwegian
23:55:30 <oerjan> i was assuming swedish from your name, until now
23:56:53 <Taneb> haavard: you're less swedish than I am dutch
23:57:03 <int-e> oerjan: are you sure? perhaps you just didn't ask the right question...
23:57:53 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:57:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:58:15 <oerjan> int-e: i'm pretty sure i asked "are you actually norwegian"
23:58:26 -!- agawa has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:58:39 <HackEgo> smlist 431: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
23:58:44 <int-e> oerjan: I know. It's still some answer :P
23:59:45 <int-e> oerjan: you're just too picky; it answered a question that you didn't ask.
00:01:07 <haavard> I am actually norwegian except for that swedish slice, oerjan
00:01:40 <Taneb> oerjan: my brother woke up in Norway this morning
00:01:41 <haavard> Do you also study at NTNU? (spying on your host)
00:02:10 <oerjan> haavard: not any more, just kept the club membership
00:02:15 <Taneb> (he went to sleep there last night, too)
00:02:24 <Taneb> Although a lot further south than you guys, I believe
00:03:50 <haavard> Taneb: there's only around 3-4 hours of driving between here and the south end of Norway tbh
00:03:53 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
00:04:05 <lambdabot> oerjan said 52m 35s ago: <hppavilion[1]> <WassPord> I'm a big fan of 50 Cent. Or, as he's called in Zimbabwe, Four hundred million dollars. <-- you know a joke is old when it refers to a no longer existing currency hth
00:04:06 <oerjan> Taneb: this means i will now have to avoid haavard like you have avoided elliott.
00:04:12 <Taneb> haavard: my brother's been staying with friends in Stavanger
00:04:43 <haavard> There you go, that's my home town ;)
00:04:52 <haavard> I didn't know being norwegian was some special perk over here, oerjan
00:05:26 <hppavilion[1]> I would think you were new because I don't recognize you, but oerjan appears to have seen you around before
00:05:41 <haavard> I am pretty new, hppavilion[1] ;)
00:06:06 <hppavilion[1]> haavard: So what projects are you currently working on?
00:06:26 <haavard> I'm writing a JIT compiler for ><>
00:07:46 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/super*
00:07:48 <HackEgo> wisdom/superexponential growth wisdom/supermarionation wisdom/supermarioperator
00:08:30 <haavard> It's a lot easier than I initially thought
00:08:34 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn superduperexponential growth/is exponential growth on top of exponential growth
00:08:38 <HackEgo> Learned «superduperexponential growth»
00:08:45 <haavard> I'm using DynASM, which makes it a lot nicer
00:08:45 <Phantom_Hoover> they've drawn a 3-punctured sphere with big circles for the punctures
00:08:49 <HackEgo> superduperexponentialgrowth? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:09:00 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----###
00:09:04 <HackEgo> is exponential growth on top of exponential growth
00:09:19 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn superduperexponential growth/superduperexponential growth is exponential growth on top of exponential growth
00:09:22 <HackEgo> Learned «superduperexponential growth»
00:09:54 <int-e> apparently smlist is for http://www.supermegacomics.com/
00:11:37 <haavard> Is it the game where the rules change, like wikipedia states?
00:11:43 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a LISP-based Nomic rule handler callsed λ-Nomic
00:11:50 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
00:12:11 <oerjan> `le/rn supercalifragilisticexponential growth/Supercalifragilisticexponential growth leaves Graham's number in the dust.
00:12:14 <HackEgo> Learned «supercalifragilisticexponential growth»
00:12:31 <hppavilion[1]> My goal is to make a pretty website frontend and publish it on the internet
00:12:40 <hppavilion[1]> And to generally make Nomic accessible to more people
00:13:22 <int-e> `le/rn smlist/Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
00:13:54 <Taneb> Peter Naur has died :(
00:13:59 <haavard> Why is learn spelled le/rn?
00:14:17 <Taneb> hppavilion[1]: he's the N in BNF
00:14:41 <hppavilion[1]> haavard: But le/rn separates the knowledge from the... thing by / instead of space
00:14:57 <Taneb> `learn infers the head word from the text
00:15:01 <int-e> haavard: there's `learn that takes the first nontrivial word as the keyword
00:15:02 <hppavilion[1]> (the "thing" being the thing that you search for with `?)
00:15:06 <Taneb> `le/rn lets you manually specify the head word
00:15:36 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe we should update le/rn to allow backslash-escaped /s
00:15:53 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
00:16:21 <Phantom_Hoover> here did anything come of that band gap uncomputability result or not
00:16:33 <hppavilion[1]> haavard: If you use "`learn the walrus is john lennon" it will learn "walrus"
00:16:35 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: shachaf's suggestion is to make le//rn allow single slashes in the key
00:16:55 <oerjan> double slashes are impossible in a linux file system anyway
00:16:57 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought it was p. interesting in that it seemed to possibly entail solving the halting problem in finite time, but i didn't know the physics well enough to tell
00:17:05 <int-e> but le//rn is indistinguishable from le/rn to unix?
00:17:11 <shachaf> int-e: But it can look at argv[0]
00:18:37 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Convergent evolution will make it unnecessary
00:18:47 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: Backus died in 2007
00:18:52 <Taneb> So we just have F now
00:19:19 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: But no one uses "form" in programming anymore!
00:19:32 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: the web is full of forms
00:19:32 <Taneb> hppavilion[1]: not even with Visual Basic?
00:19:39 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/.\(.*\)/S\1./' wisdom/superd*
00:19:56 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Ah, but everything in programming will be extensible pretty soon
00:21:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: actually it will learn "walru" hth
00:21:19 <vanila> BNF is designed for clarity
00:21:23 <vanila> how will you make EBNF?
00:21:42 <hppavilion[1]> A form that sheds the usual ideas of "logical parsing" and "ease-of-use" to make something fun and exciting!
00:21:49 -!- jaboja has joined.
00:22:02 <vanila> wait it lready exists, perl regex
00:22:46 <hppavilion[1]> Another idea I'm currently working on is Classical Programming
00:22:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that band gap result says little about "real" physics, it's an idealized system in the infinite growth limit.
00:22:57 <hppavilion[1]> Not based on OO, because there aren't many objects
00:23:22 <hppavilion[1]> And classes aren't just a fancy way to hold methods and data. They're the bulk of the language
00:23:37 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, i expected as much, but it's still fairly interesting if you could get the result in bounded time
00:23:49 <hppavilion[1]> Problem is, I don't know what to put in classes to make them more... well... usable for my idea
00:24:39 <hppavilion[1]> Just start making shit up and work back from there!
00:28:35 <HackEgo> to minski on : /mɪnskiː/ To act as a minski machine on; of a program or programming language, to encode its entire state into the object as a single integer.
00:29:03 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/minsk{i,y}; sed -i 's/minski/Minsky/g' wisdom/mins*
00:29:12 <HackEgo> to Minsky on : /mɪnskiː/ To act as a Minsky machine on; of a program or programming language, to encode its entire state into the object as a single integer.
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00:29:55 <int-e> . o O ( Minsky is the capital of minsky. )
00:30:19 <oerjan> int-e: don't you mean belorussiay hth
00:30:22 <int-e> (Minsk is the capital of Belarus)
00:30:36 <int-e> oerjan: no, I was punning
00:30:58 <int-e> oerjan: I'm not sure that "to Minsky" should have a capital M.
00:31:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: someone was mentioning in the discussion on scott aaronson's blog that one "practical" version of this is that you can have systems that look gapless up to an arbitrary size, then suddenly switch to gapped, or was it the other way around.
00:32:31 <oerjan> int-e: i think we should leave that decision to the native speakers.
00:32:52 <int-e> oerjan: but I do speak natively ;)
00:33:13 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well, you can presumably embed an arbitrary finite computation into that switch
00:34:31 <oerjan> int-e: Wenn du es so sagst.
00:35:12 <oerjan> or are you saying you're actually (>=)bilingual
00:35:36 <int-e> no, I'm not saying that
00:36:36 <oerjan> . o O ( What is O KAY in German )
00:36:52 <int-e> Okay? In Ordnung...
00:37:52 <int-e> Nice to meet you, Mr. Nung.
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00:54:18 <tadaaa> this channel is funny. i will be here more ofthen
00:55:42 <HackEgo> tadaaa: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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01:26:45 <tswett> `run culprits canary | loudly
01:27:35 <FireFly> rather silent if you ask me
01:27:51 <\oren\> why is everyone watching downtown abbey
01:27:57 <tswett> Maybe HackEgo has been spending the last minute or two inhaling.
01:28:26 <\oren\> i don't see what's so great about an abbot in the inner city
01:29:09 <tswett> `loudly BEST COMMAND EVER Y/N?
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01:29:29 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric pro,
01:30:26 <Elronnd> `loudly people should stop abusing me
01:30:27 <\oren\> `rainbow best camand evar
01:30:27 <HackEgo> people should stop abusing me
01:30:30 <tswett> `run echo "Did you mean: $(loudly loudly)" > wisdom/loudly
01:31:32 <tswett> Everyone, HackEgo is tired now and needs to rest.
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01:31:50 <tswett> `? misspellings of croissant
01:31:52 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:31:56 <tswett> `? misspellings of crosant
01:31:58 <Elronnd> `loudly seriously, stop abusing me or I'll call the police for sexual harrasment
01:31:58 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:31:59 <HackEgo> seriously, stop abusing me or I'll call the polic,
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01:34:30 <tswett> `loudly Night, everyone.
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01:35:08 <oerjan> `silently STOP SHOUTING
01:35:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: silently: not found
01:35:23 <oerjan> `quietly STOP SHOUTING
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01:44:08 <shachaf> `` mv bin/{quietly,silently} # hth
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02:24:48 <oerjan> <agawa> if u are abov 1m 60 u arent a troll <-- wat
02:25:44 * oerjan grew up in a culture where trolls are assumed huge, with fairy tales telling how some mountains used to be them
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02:26:50 <lifthrasiir> well, a creature which is 1 million and 60 cm tall is probably not a troll
02:27:54 <oerjan> a bit large for a mountain.
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02:29:12 <lambdabot> KOAK 040153Z 09008KT 10SM BKN065 OVC160 11/02 A2981 RMK AO2 SLP094 T01110022
02:29:20 <shachaf> this is a much more reasonable temperature tdh
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02:30:56 <oerjan> ♫ Det bur ei troll i Senja ♫ så reint utruleg stort ♫ Det fiskar kval på Malangsgrunn ♫ som andre fiskar mort ♫
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02:40:34 <oerjan> (There lives a troll in Senja / So incredibly large / It fishes for whales at Malangsgrunn / like others fish for pollock)
02:41:08 <oerjan> that's supposedly _small_ pollock, i couldn't find a specific english word.
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02:42:59 <lifthrasiir> http://babelstone.blogspot.com/2016/01/whats-new-in-unicode-90.html
02:43:42 <lifthrasiir> lol on the "Emoji" and "non-Emoji" headings
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03:52:15 <lambdabot> CYUL 040300Z 36011G16KT 4SM -SN BKN020 OVC045 M10/M15 A2998 RMK SC6SC2 SLP155
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04:01:49 <hppavilion[1]> A language where an entire program is encoded as an arithmetical expression
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04:06:01 <zzo38> I have thought of such things before too (although not quite like that)
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04:19:41 <hppavilion[1]> #esoteric's guide to Star Wars: Think about it and it will make far less sense than you can possibly imagine
04:23:49 <oerjan> i don't know, i can imagine quite a bit.
04:32:08 <Elronnd> Apparently printf is turing-complete
04:33:38 <Elronnd> I forget; I saw something on it on github at somem point
04:33:43 <Elronnd> I'll see if I can dig it up
04:35:10 <Elronnd> "a brainfuck inside printf" https://github.com/HexHive/printbf
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04:37:07 <pikhq> Wait, is that actually working with the formal spec of printf, and not just UB?
04:40:26 <pikhq> Hmm. It's UB and fragile I think.
04:41:40 <hppavilion[1]> I'm currently making the base ruleset for an automated Nomic game :)
04:42:37 <hppavilion[1]> Specifically, the classic game using the LispRule ruleengine
04:42:42 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: wait, really? I never new it was possible for a well-known and used language to actually be turing-complete!
04:43:15 <deltab> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/fprintf.html defines %n
04:43:28 <deltab> "The argument shall be a pointer to an integer into which is written the number of bytes written to the output so far by this call to one of the fprintf() functions. No argument is converted."
04:43:47 <hppavilion[1]> (λ-nomic, the site/software/game that I'm making for Nomic playing, supports/will support various base games and various rule engines)
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05:37:01 <hppavilion[1]> And now that I think about it, it isn't even complete
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05:51:04 <zzo38> Do you like my variant formats for Magic: the Gathering (such as Variant Star and so on)?
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06:20:51 <zzo38> I hope that I have now sufficiently improved the form to make the calculation of the MD5 hash of your account.
06:43:28 <hppavilion[1]> This guy took math and used it to prove the Illuminati (facetiously) xD
06:44:22 <shachaf> zzo38: Where can I read about Variant Star?
06:44:54 <zzo38> shachaf: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/star.var
06:45:24 <zzo38> I agree there certainly are better ways than MD5, but I have to use MD5 in this case, sorry.
06:47:16 <pikhq> MD5 is totally scow.
06:53:37 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I know!
06:54:30 <zzo38> But, I have to use MD5 anyways!
06:55:28 <zzo38> HTTP digest authentication requires it
06:57:43 <pikhq> Welp, there's only one real problem here: using that prevents using good password storage.
06:57:44 <zzo38> But you can also use "htdigest" program or any other software on your computer to make MD5 calculation, you are not required to use the HTML form that I have made up.
06:58:13 <shachaf> Why are you using HTTP digest authentication?
06:58:53 <zzo38> That is to identify if you have account to post comment on my custom Magic: the Gathering cards.
06:59:47 <zzo38> The file that stores the passwords is private anyways so you cannot access it. The file that stores the cards and comments is a public file though, and account information is not stored there.
06:59:47 <pikhq> HTTPS is probably a better solution, though digest authentication beats basic authentication if you're *not* using HTTPS at least? I guess?
07:00:32 <zzo38> Even if it is HTTPS, the password is still send to my computer; HTTPS only prevent it being catch in between, not at the end!
07:00:52 <zzo38> And even then I should use HTTP authentication, whether basic or digest, to do log in.
07:01:43 <zzo38> Anyways, even "curl" program support digest authentication, so you do not need to do by web browser (although it is the possibility too).
07:07:36 <pikhq> I do like HTTP authentication as at least an option.
07:12:39 <shachaf> zzo38: Instead of "he" your description of Variant Star should say "he or she"
07:15:10 <zzo38> I could fix it, I just shorten it like that; many document to shorten like that commonly
07:15:38 <shachaf> Not the official rules, though.
07:16:03 <zzo38> These are not official rules; it is a variant game.
07:18:14 <zzo38> I do not mean that woman cannot use it; even if somehow someone is neither "he" nor "she" is still usable and is not prohibited either.
07:19:05 <zzo38> English is a Stupid language. Did you know that?
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07:40:09 <shachaf> Magic: The Gathering cards should probably say that.
07:40:10 <hppavilion[1]> Or, alternatively, use every possible name joined with ", or"
07:41:53 <zzo38> Avoiding such things like that is why I abbreviate just as "he", which is shorter and sufficiently clear as far as I can tell
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07:43:34 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: You could, of course, use "one", but then you sound like me
07:45:05 <zzo38> Well, I wrote it and see no reason to change it. However if you would want to write things using different convention I do not complain, unless it is a stupid convention (such as listing all possible names explicitly)
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08:33:34 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: I've defined a number #, based off of @, s.t. |#| = i
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08:45:59 <zzo38> If | means absolute value, then, I would thought absolute value is supposed to be idenpotence
08:49:08 <shachaf> sometimes i wonder whether oerjan will be appropriately offended at scow puns if he's not around for them
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08:50:25 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i discussed the existence of @ recently
08:51:19 <myname> you'd need to extend the reals by some dimension. quadratic polynoms would have 4 results
08:51:32 <myname> we didn't really end in a full definition
08:52:05 <zzo38> I have invented "meta-complex numbers" in the past
08:52:14 <zzo38> Possibly some other people have also invented same thing
08:52:56 <myname> what are meracomplex numbers?
08:54:29 <zzo38> For example you can have a realreal component, a realimaginary component, a imaginaryreal component, a imaginaryimaginaryimaginary component, a imaginaryimaginaryrealimaginary component, etc
08:54:58 <zzo38> They are still commutative and associative.
08:56:08 <zzo38> You can represent by matrix by use of tensor multiplication of [1,0;0,1] and [0,-1;1,0] and then they can be multiplied by real numbers and added together.
08:56:27 <zzo38> Now do you understand it please?
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11:52:57 <lambdabot> CYUL 041100Z 33003KT 15SM SKC M18/M24 A3019 RMK SLP229
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12:45:44 <b_jonas> `learn Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, which turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofoam on it.
12:45:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'snow': Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, which turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofoam on it.
12:58:14 <lambdabot> LOWI 041250Z 27008KT 9999 FEW008 SCT030 BKN060 04/02 Q0994 R08/19//95 NOSIG
13:04:11 <zzo38> How do I fix Firefox so that it will use the filename of the page being viewed as the default filename when saving it, rather than using the title as the default filename?
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13:54:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tedius]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46070&oldid=33269 * LegionMammal978 * (+2) /* Cat program */
13:58:52 <lambdabot> CYYZ 041300Z 36013KT 15SM FEW030 BKN075 M15/M20 A3031 RMK SC2AC3 SLP277
14:01:41 <HackEgo> olist 1017: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:04:36 <b_jonas> `learn Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, and some suspect that he is the son of Rhaegar Targeryan. It turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofoam on it.
14:04:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'snow': Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, and some suspect that he is the son of Rhaegar Targeryan. It turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofoam on it.
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14:24:19 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/109/
14:27:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'winter': Winter is coming.
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15:34:30 <Taneb> My exam this afternoon went well
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16:59:34 <int-e> aaah stupid 2048 game...
17:07:42 <quintopia> try Threes. it's much less stupid.
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17:13:00 <quintopia> it amuses me that there is a section of the Tedius page that is about making the language less tedious
17:18:34 <int-e> quintopia: I just have to fight the urge to try and reach 8192 (because it takes a long, long time to get there)
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17:38:14 <quintopia> int-e: that number seems astronomical compared to the numbers you're able to reach in Threes
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18:14:38 <ais523> hi, I'm trying to do something totally insane and could use some advice
18:15:08 <ais523> basically, the idea is to make the common case of an esolang interpreter faster via not doing any sort of bounds checks, and instead catching the resulting segfault (via allocating memory a page at a time)
18:15:18 <ais523> this requires that I know where in the source code the segfault happened
18:15:32 <ais523> so what I want to do is convert the segfaults into (zero-cost) exceptions that I can catch
18:15:52 <ais523> however, the obvious method, of putting throw in a signal handler, doesn't work; it acts like the exception was unhandled
18:16:10 <ais523> and inspecting the asm at various optimization levels implies that you're not supposed to be able to throw an exception out of a signal handler into the main program
18:16:40 <ais523> izabera: I mean that if I write "throw foo;" in a signal handler, inside a try block in the main program but not in the signal hander, it gets translated to terminate()
18:16:47 <ais523> as usual for an unhandled exception
18:17:24 <ais523> anyway, what I'd like is either a) a way to convert signals to exceptions, or b) another way to accomplish what I'm aiming for (zero-cost segfault handling) that doesn't require throwing an exception in a signal handler
18:17:42 <ais523> clearly I could do it via writing the asm myself but I don't want to have to resort to that
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18:19:27 <APic> Maybe People in ##ASM can help, even though it is off-topic there…
18:19:36 <ais523> izabera: not trivially as it's one of those compilers that works by pieceing code fragments together
18:19:43 <APic> Can You use longjmp()?
18:19:43 <ais523> let me paste you some compiled output
18:19:55 <ais523> APic: yes but I can't use setjmp()
18:20:10 <ais523> because you have to call it in advance before you know whether it's jumped to or not
18:20:46 <ais523> izabera: http://sprunge.us/jEPB
18:20:59 <ais523> see segv_handler for the problematic bit
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18:23:27 <ais523> the context is that I'm trying to make a basic literal (i.e. non-optimizing) PMMN compiler that's as efficient as possible for being non-optimizing
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18:24:48 <izabera> i don't know what pmmn is but i see
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18:27:23 <ais523> izabera: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Portable_Minsky_Machine_Notation
18:27:44 <ais523> I want to know how fast a non-optimizing impl can be to compare my optimizer to it
18:31:42 <APic> ais523: There is http://forum.dlang.org/thread/jjn6dj$193c$1@digitalmars.com but of course it is highly non-portable.
18:32:07 <ais523> anything along these lines can be expected to be highly nonportable, really
18:32:27 <ais523> ooh, it uses ucontext_t
18:35:46 <ais523> however it seems to rely on ebp/rbp being reliable
18:40:08 <APic> If the Function You return to does not return further itself, i guess You can just skip messing with the Base-Pointer…
18:40:48 <ais523> right, actually it works a bit more simply if ebp isn't pushed
18:41:00 <ais523> I think what you have to do here is to write the userspace handler in asm
18:41:49 * APic thinks so too, that is why i pointed out ##asm B-)
18:50:49 <ais523> but I already know asm :-P
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19:45:10 <olsner> huh, my desk *does* point zimbabwards
19:48:12 <fizzie> ais523: jitfunge used a stack like that.
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19:49:42 <fizzie> ais523: Not the part about throwing exceptions, but the part without bounds checks, with a segfault handler that patched pop-like things to act as if they had just popped the last 0 out of the stack.
19:50:08 <ais523> it's trying to do the segfault handler cleanly that's bothering me
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19:50:23 <ais523> you can get the address that faulted, but if you return, it'll try to read that address again
19:50:34 <ais523> which isn't so useful if what was wrong was the address itself
19:51:51 <fizzie> I did it only in the version that had handcrafted code generation, because the "patch things up to look like it worked" operation is hard to figure out in the general case of arbitrary code.
19:52:27 <fizzie> With a finite set of generated forms, it could look at the faulting instruction and act appropriately. Didn't port this over to the LLVM-based thing.
19:56:35 <fizzie> /* .. */ else if (code[0] == 0x8b && (code[1] & 0xc7) == 0x06) /* .. */
19:56:40 <ais523> oh, you actually examined the code?
19:56:56 <ais523> come to think of it, I could just write this whole program in asm
19:57:02 <ais523> it'd probably be easier
19:57:24 <fizzie> The body of that branch is targetreg = 11-((code[1]>>3) & 0x07); and then I do ctx->uc_mcontext.gregs[targetreg] = 0; to "return" a zero.
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20:26:36 <ais523> hmm, should I just put this esolang online without implementing it and without writing programs in it to test that it works?
20:26:52 <ais523> I wanted at least a working tested cat
20:27:00 <ais523> and want the possibility to change the spec in case I've missed something
20:28:36 <HackEgo> [U+FF1F FULLWIDTH QUESTION MARK]
20:29:05 <ais523> that is quite the codepoint number
20:30:15 <fizzie> That's what you get for putting the "halfwidth and fullwidth forms" block to ff00..ffef.
20:30:34 <ais523> what a weird place to put it
20:33:46 <fizzie> `` for d in 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7; do unidecode "$(unicode $d$d$d$d)"; done
20:33:50 <HackEgo> \ [U+1111 HANGUL CHOSEONG PHIEUPH] \ [U+2222 SPHERICAL ANGLE] \ [U+3333 SQUARE HUIITO] \ [U+4444 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-4444] \ [U+5555 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5555] \ [U+6666 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-6666] \ [U+7777 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-7777]
20:33:55 <fizzie> `` for d in 8 9 a b c d e f; do unidecode "$(unicode $d$d$d$d)"; done
20:34:02 <HackEgo> [U+8888 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-8888] \ [U+9999 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-9999] \ [U+AAAA TAI VIET LETTER LOW VO] \ [U+BBBB HANGUL SYLLABLE MYUC] \ [U+CCCC HANGUL SYLLABLE CEK] \ U+DDDD - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ed b7 9d UTF-16BE: dddd Decimal: � \ () \ Uppercase: U+DDDD \ Category: Cs (Other, Surrogate) \
20:34:30 <fizzie> Hrm. The output for the non-existing U+DDDD was far too long.
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20:55:00 <ais523> quintopia: I've discussed two today; the first was PMMN; the second was me running with the "input is appended to the source" idea
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22:56:13 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> But what about if you substitute j for i? Or k? <-- i am guessing you just substitute them in the right side too. i think the quaternions are a (real) banach algebra, which means e**(ix) works by power series as usual, and then i^2 = -1 is _probably_ all you need for the splitup, and j and k have the same property. for x real, that is. if x is some other quaternion that doesn't commute with i, j or k things ...
22:56:19 <oerjan> ... might get messed up.
22:56:49 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] ... might get messed up.
22:57:17 * oerjan suddenly realizes lambdabot might cut that off more...
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23:02:02 <Taneb> oerjan: hppavilion is, I presume, capable of logreading
23:03:06 <oerjan> but does he know that he's capable
23:03:36 <oerjan> does he know that i know that you know that he is capable
23:04:11 <boily> Tanelle, hellørjan, Tanelle, hellørjan.
23:05:56 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:06:48 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i wish to inform you that i know that Taneb knows that you are capable of logreading. just in case lambdabot cuts that off more.
23:07:40 <shachaf> oerjan: You know that Taneb knows it? Or just that Taneb says he knows it?
23:08:09 <oerjan> shachaf: darn you got me there. also how can be offended by a scow pun if i cannot find it even while logreadin tdnh
23:08:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ah, by j and k I meant j from the split-complexes and k=epsilon from the duals
23:08:59 * oerjan vaguely guesses shachaf thinks "normally" is punny there, but doesn't quite see how.
23:10:06 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: oh. well i have no idea whether that's too messed up to be a banach algebra, then.
23:10:34 <boily> what would be a good porthello for funpuns?
23:10:48 <oerjan> basically, you want it to be a ring and reals to be a subring commuting with everything, i think.
23:11:09 <boily> hppavellon[1]. is there snow where you are?
23:11:26 * oerjan swats shachaf for scowness -----###
23:13:13 <lambdabot> ENVA 042220Z 13016KT CAVOK M06/M16 Q1008 RMK WIND 670FT 15024G34KT
23:13:33 <oerjan> no snow, at the moment.
23:13:58 <lambdabot> CYUL 042300Z 32005KT 15SM FEW040 FEW240 M15/M21 A3044 RMK SC1CI1 SC TR CI TR SLP315
23:14:31 <boily> cold. I bought a 10kg bag of salt for my stairs. much fun bringing it back home by foot.
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23:36:53 <shachaf> boily: whoa whoa whoa, why would you live somewhere that cold?
23:36:59 <lambdabot> KOAK 042253Z 17008KT 9SM -RA BKN032 OVC050 14/09 A2972 RMK AO2 RAB28 SLP064 P0000 T01390094
23:39:08 <Taneb> shachaf: that's like half of the Frogs chorus of Aristophanes!
23:40:14 <shachaf> Taneb knows the croaking chorus from The Frogs of Aristophanes?
23:40:26 <Taneb> In the original Greek
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23:41:14 <Taneb> And in translation!
23:41:38 <shachaf> can you whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore?
23:42:01 <Taneb> But I am very well acquainted with matters mathematical!
23:42:29 <shachaf> do you have any cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse?
23:42:48 <Taneb> It's equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides!
23:43:09 <Taneb> It's all about attitude, shachaf
23:43:15 <shachaf> you're not even giving an upper bound
23:43:16 <Taneb> Get to higher griound
23:43:28 <shachaf> Taneb: you never answered my question about dominance and submission, anyway
23:43:38 <Taneb> I do not remember the question
23:44:25 <shachaf> <shachaf> Taneb: so BDSM is out but how does Taneb feel about dominance and submission in non-sexual contexts twh
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23:44:29 <shachaf> in particular i was thinking of theatre
23:44:42 <Taneb> I haven't done much theatre in the past couple of years
23:44:54 <shachaf> what do you think of http://slbkbs.org/kj-ideas.txt
23:45:24 <Taneb> That is certainly a list of ideas
23:47:27 <shachaf> what's better than ideas? pooches.
23:48:01 <boily> shachaf: because the beer is good.
23:48:42 <boily> speaking of poutine, I think I'ma gonna get one.
23:48:51 <shachaf> GOOD THINGS, TOTALLY ORDERED:
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23:48:54 <Taneb> I don't know anywhere to get poutine
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23:50:57 <shachaf> Taneb: you should read that book, it's great
23:52:09 <Taneb> I will bear that in mind
23:52:41 <Taneb> Unfortunately I have exams right now
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23:57:32 <hppavilion[1]> @tell boily There was snow here, until a few days ago. Which is weird, because Alaska.
23:58:08 <Taneb> I haven't seen it snow since 2011
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00:14:02 <ais523> I've seen snow on a couple of random days in late 2015
00:14:13 <ais523> like, october/novemberish
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00:20:39 * ais523 wonders why Stack Exchange's TOS refers to the user accepting the TOS using the pronoun "it"
00:20:49 <ais523> most such legal documents I've seen just repeat the noun rather than using pronouns
00:20:57 <ais523> to avoid such awkward phrasing
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00:33:08 <lambdabot> CYYZ 050000Z 01009KT 15SM SKC M13/M22 A3053 RMK SLP355
00:35:49 <lambdabot> CYTZ 050000Z AUTO 32007KT 300V360 9SM CLR M12/M20 A3056 RMK SLP357
00:36:51 <\oren\> a bit warmer by the laek
00:39:51 <\oren\> I need something to sort the unicode characters in a file
00:41:19 <\oren\> I soppose I could just put each character on a line by itself, then run sort, then delete the linebreaks
00:54:56 <\oren\> bah. GNU fold doesn't do utf8 righjt
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00:59:15 <\oren\> HA! since the'yre all kanji, fold -b60 or any other multiple of 3 works
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01:20:32 <\oren\> ok. so: cat kanjilist | tr -d '\n' | fold -b3 | sort -u | tr -d '\n' | fold -b60 >sortedkanjilist
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01:33:55 <quintopia> ais523: what did you mean by appending input?
01:34:26 <ais523> before running the program, the interp reads the entirety of stdin and appends that to the program
01:34:40 <ais523> also there's no introspection/redlection
01:35:06 <ais523> so you have to redefine every character that could appear in the input to handle itslef
01:35:10 <ais523> and a new esolang I'm working on
01:43:29 <\oren\> by character, do you mean unicode characters or bytes?
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02:09:42 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: it seems that fold cannot handle multibyte characters of UTF-8 or whatsoever anyway
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03:04:32 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a place I can find the original "A Programming Language" by Kenneth E Iverson for free online?
03:04:55 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I found a problem with generalized hyperoperations
03:09:27 <adu> hi hppavilion[1]
03:09:37 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what problem?
03:10:12 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Well, I assume we want negative hyperoperations to be the inverse of the positives, correct? So x-y, x/y, etc. would be negative hyperoperations
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03:10:29 <hppavilion[1]> That leads to the issue of Pred(x). Where is it? 0 is already S(x)
03:10:59 <adu> there are hyperN, hyperNroots, hyperNlogarithms, which would you choose for negatives, roots or logs?
03:11:45 <hppavilion[1]> adu: That's another problem I was going to cover xD
03:11:58 <\oren\> Apparently a portable lithium battery can also be used as a lightweight incendiary grenade.
03:12:00 <adu> hyper2roots and hyper2logs are both division
03:12:10 <adu> hyper3roots are surds/radicals
03:12:19 <adu> hyper3logs are the traditional "logarithm"
03:12:50 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps it's not so much a number line we're going for as a number... tripod?
03:12:56 <adu> hyper4-x is generally called super-x, i.e. super-roots and super-logarithms
03:13:08 <adu> hppavilion[1]: no tripod
03:13:18 <hppavilion[1]> Three rays going in directions 120 degrees from each other?
03:13:24 <adu> hppavilion[1]: they're indexed by natural numbers, no negatives are required at all
03:14:03 <adu> hppavilion[1]: why are you forcing three sets indexed by natural numbers into an structure that doesn't even represent them? stop forcing things to be something they're not
03:14:59 <adu> hppavilion[1]: for any function f(x, y) there are two inverse functions, f^(-1, 0)(x, y), and f^(0, -1)(x, y)
03:15:36 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I'm simply making an attempt to generalize the hyperoperations
03:15:45 <adu> you can't put those on a number line, because it's 2D
03:16:06 <adu> there are quadrillions of mappings between 1D and 2D
03:16:12 <adu> which one do you choose?
03:16:12 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Out of curiousity, what's f^(-1, -1)(x, y) equal to?
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03:16:24 <adu> hppavilion[1]: depends on the function
03:16:59 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I choose to forgo the concept of lines for my hyperoperations and instead have positive numbers, fooative numbers, and barative numbers
03:17:12 <hppavilion[1]> Or fooative numbers, barative numbers, and bazative numbers
03:17:16 <adu> fooative? barative?
03:17:40 <hppavilion[1]> It makes no sense, but it's mathematically rigorous AFAICT and at least usable
03:17:48 <adu> I need to post this convo to the TetrationForum
03:18:36 <hppavilion[1]> adu: But I think tripod numbers would at least be more useful for generalized hyperoperations than linear numbers are
03:19:27 <hppavilion[1]> And there's some sort of logical transformation between them. Or maybe not, maybe we don't need it.
03:20:39 <adu> There is a place for alternative extensions from Integers to Complexes, but IMHO, it's not going to be very popular
03:20:58 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Yes, and the Hyperoperations might just be that place
03:21:10 <adu> so far the only extensions that have any sticking-power among mathematicians are "regular" and "intuitive"
03:21:21 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I mean, how else do we encode negative hyperoperations? I don't see any way they could be anything /but/ the inverse operations
03:21:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what is a negative hyperoperations?
03:21:48 <adu> they're undefined, what's wrong with that?
03:22:32 <hppavilion[1]> $&x -> *x, &$x -> *x; $*x -> &x, *$x -> &x; &*x -> $x, *&x -> $x might work
03:22:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: well, if I were to define them, I would try and continue with the standard recursion rule
03:23:01 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Then again, you can't do recursion like that with the reals
03:23:07 <adu> but that doesn't work so well with the (x -> x +1) function
03:23:38 <adu> because it doesn't break down like the other operations
03:23:40 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm not generalizing to the integers, I'm generalizing to the reals)
03:24:31 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Hm... Perhaps n[0]m = 0, and n[1]m = n moved away from 0 by m, etc.? It's in line with the original hyperoperations, AFIACT, but not with standard arithmetic
03:25:23 <adu> Any continuous hyperoperation sequence would also have to have a definition of the "etas"
03:25:26 <hppavilion[1]> It's rotating clockwise 120 degrees instead of 180 degrees, if that makes any sense
03:26:06 <hppavilion[1]> (Of course, you could also go anticlockwise, but then again, you could also just rotate the graph. Really, it's a matter of arbitrary choice)
03:26:50 <adu> eta_N = [0, 1, e^(1/e), 1.6353, ...] and their counterparts eulers_N = [0, 1, e, 3.0885, ...]
03:30:31 <hppavilion[1]> I think ... needs to follow a sequence that the reader has already picked up the pattern in
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04:50:49 <\oren\> QC has warped to the yeah 20016!!
04:52:38 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: he means the identities for the two reverse operations
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05:18:58 <Elronnd> \oren\: more like the year 216
05:19:30 <Elronnd> Downloading and saving in case it gets fixed
05:21:07 <Elronnd> `printf 2; for i in ${0..16}; do printf 0; done
05:21:14 <HackEgo> 2; for i in ${0..16}; do printf 0; done
05:21:18 <Elronnd> ``printf 2; for i in ${0..16}; do printf 0; done
05:21:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `printf: not found
05:22:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
05:22:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
05:25:07 -!- Elronnd has set topic: This part of the topic was the first added in 2016 | The international hub for magic gathering and deployment. | Effi's finest fluffy waffles | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/ | This part of the topic was the second added in 2016.
05:27:33 <zzo38> Maybe I can invent the card game a bit like Magic: the Gathering card and Pokemon card and whatever but it is new game, can be call Freecard; I want to avoid the problem made with other designs, by doing in the right way, which means it must be open-source and card game rule play with paper and computer are designed together to ensure it work, and mathematically elegant too.
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06:01:39 <coppro> man, usialtgr is the best keyboard layout
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08:41:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Call stack/Manipulation]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46071 * Mroman * (+585) Wouldn't you need to push the current function instead?
08:42:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Call stack/Manipulation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46072&oldid=46071 * Mroman * (+6) * wiki format
08:44:06 <FreeFull> https://dpaste.de/3tGJ/raw I found this in a Chinese spam message
08:46:54 <FreeFull> The email has something to do with Falun Gong
08:48:27 <FreeFull> It links to some website talking against the chinese communist party
08:49:52 <zzo38> They are neither communist nor a party, from what I have heard.
08:50:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Call stack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46073&oldid=46063 * Mroman * (+991) buffering calls & x86
08:57:35 <fizzie> A man was giving out Falun Gong leaflets at the door of the British Museum.
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09:00:59 <mroman> I presume there are garbage collectors that have a list of pointers to objects
09:01:07 <mroman> or a table the form of
09:01:52 <mroman> then at some point they scan through the stack space and mark all objecs as live and check for references from these live objects to other objects
09:01:59 <mroman> marking every object reachable as live
09:02:13 <mroman> then just delete all non-live objects
09:02:59 <mroman> so basically it would be an array of struct gc_entry { object* obj; bool alive; }
09:03:37 <mroman> and each object knows the index of it's gc entry
09:03:50 <mroman> in case somebody wants to manually free certain objects at a very specific point
09:04:01 <lambdabot> boily said 9d 13h 50m 54s ago: I mapole you.
09:04:01 <lambdabot> boily said 9d 13h 50m 25s ago: (with great force and momentum, might I add.)
09:04:01 <lambdabot> boily said 9d 13h 50m 19s ago: (tsé.)
09:04:01 <lambdabot> boily asked 3d 10h 9m 59s ago: mrhelloman. underdeveloped aliens?
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09:15:01 <mroman> "A good chunk of the web today (and particularly the mobile web) effectively relies on -webkit prefixed CSS properties & features. We wish we lived in a world where web content always included standards-based fallback (or at least multiple-vendor-prefixed fallback), but alas, we do not live in that world. To be successful at rendering the web as it exists, we need to add support for a list of frequently-used -webkit prefixed CSS properties & features."
09:15:15 <mroman> google should just severly punish websites that don't use proper HTML/CSS
09:15:16 <FreeFull> fizzie: I'm just wondering what the code from the email is
09:15:49 <mroman> If your site's rank sinks because you don't use proper HTML/CSS than that would be an incentive to change that.
09:16:07 <mroman> and that would be only fair
09:16:17 <mroman> since webpages should generally be viewable in any compliant browser
09:17:07 <mroman> so it makes sense that a search engine takes the portability of a webpage into account.
09:17:23 <FreeFull> http://freefull.github.io/dice.html Is this proper HTML/CSS/Javascript ?
09:18:08 <zzo38> They are trying to define the webpage rendering too much inside the webpage, even though it should depend on user settings instead.
09:19:56 <mroman> and it totally pisses me off that pandoc doesn't generate valid HTML
09:22:44 <zzo38> The other thing I would try to do though is to intend that the service can also be used from commandline (with curl, SQLite, or otherwise) as well and don't necessarily require the web browser; clean HTML writing is also help with such thing, although many of my files I make as plain text since many thing I don't even need HTML anyways.
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09:27:45 <fizzie> FreeFull: Sometimes it's just random garbage to confuse things that detect spam by exact comparisons.
09:32:54 <zzo38> Once I wrote the spam filter that worked by looking for the stuff that was used to avoid spam detection, and other strange stuff (multiple tabs in the subject line, large numbers of spaces in the subject line, non-ASCII subject lines, base64-encoded HTML, etc)
09:33:59 <fizzie> The distribution looks approximately the sort of thing you get if you pick uniformly random characters from the alphabet [A-Za-z0-9 ].
09:34:37 <mroman> looks like html5 output is more valid
09:35:23 <mroman> E-Mails shouldn't contain HTML anyway
09:36:04 <zzo38> Yes I agree it should preferably be plaintext
09:36:20 <zzo38> Some people program their computer to reject HTML email
10:15:45 <mroman> there should be more of those
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11:43:11 <HackEgo> bfjoust/bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
11:43:17 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 11h 45m 45s ago: There was snow here, until a few days ago. Which is weird, because Alaska.
11:45:57 <lambdabot> CYUL 051105Z 24005KT 15SM FEW008 M20/M23 A3063 RMK SF1 SLP378 DENSITY ALT MISG
11:46:13 <lambdabot> LOWI 051120Z 26005KT 180V310 9999 FEW012 SCT070 BKN090 03/00 Q0999 R08/19//95 NOSIG
11:50:06 <lambdabot> ESSB 051120Z 04006KT 9999 -SN FEW003 SCT007 M08/M11 Q1009 R12/29//60
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11:50:32 <FireFly> I forget how to read metars
11:50:49 * FireFly isolates the temperature, skips the rest
11:52:28 <int-e> light snow; few clouds at 300 feet; scattered clouds at 700 feet; pressure 1009 hPa; 04006KT is wind (from 040, 6 knots) and 9999 is visibility on the ground
11:54:50 <int-e> ah, also visibility, with unit
11:56:54 <fizzie> I'm not sure M20 still counts as "is coming".
11:56:57 <lambdabot> EGLL 051150Z AUTO 21009KT 180V260 9999 SCT005 09/07 Q0984 NOSIG
11:57:39 <fizzie> There's snow in Finland, or so I hear.
11:57:42 <lambdabot> EFHK 051150Z 36007KT 9999 FEW020 BKN065 BKN200 M18/M21 Q1007 NOSIG
11:58:34 <fizzie> That's almost a 30-degree difference in temperatures.
12:00:08 <b_jonas> Is the portal co-op a free co-op, or one where the players are restricted on which buttons they push on the controller?
12:01:04 <FireFly> In Portal 2? Pretty sure both players have full control
12:01:17 <FireFly> On PC it's online multiplayer, so each player plays on a separate computer
12:01:41 <b_jonas> so they're controlling two different in-game humanoid characters?
12:02:00 <b_jonas> nice, I didn't know portal 2 could do that
12:02:20 <FireFly> Well "humanoid"--they're robots specifically designed for the co-op
12:02:37 <FireFly> rather than two clones of Chell
12:03:33 <b_jonas> This will be interesting, I think I haven't seen this in previous GDQs, although Portal 2 is fast-paced 3D first-person with people jumping around in portals like crazy so I can't usually follow what happens on the screen.
12:04:40 <b_jonas> I wonder what the Super Mario Maker will be like.
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12:05:25 <b_jonas> The GTA 3 any% run will be interesting. So many nice bugs exhibited!
12:06:35 <b_jonas> And of course, the 3D Legend of Zelda games are always amazing.
12:12:12 <FireFly> There's blindfolded punch-out this year, hopefully that'll be great too
12:26:53 <fizzie> Like, on a console, or just two blindfolded people in a room trying to punch each other?
12:30:27 <FireFly> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSr3aXd4XuQ#t=5m45s
12:52:19 <FireFly> Cloudbuilt looks pretty fun
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13:08:27 <fizzie> FireFly: Sounds like a web technology.
13:21:33 <int-e> "it is very fast paced and high difficulty and emphasis on acrobatic control"... sounds a bit too serious to be fun ;)
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15:21:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46074&oldid=45976 * Albedo * (+249) major overhaul of the layout
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15:21:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46075&oldid=46074 * Albedo * (+0) /* Table with all cloning and deletion directions */ typo
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15:53:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tonoco]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46076&oldid=40979 * 78.52.143.140 * (-6) /* Box Reference */
15:54:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tonoco]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46077&oldid=46076 * 78.52.143.140 * (-6) /* Control Flow */
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17:20:14 <Taneb> I have my "Eodermdrome" exam in 40 minutes
17:21:05 <Taneb> myname, that's when the exam was scheduled
17:21:12 <Taneb> It's on computation by graph transformation
17:23:03 <Taneb> Incidentally, "forty" is the only number spelt in English with its letters in alphabetical order
17:24:04 <Taneb> A is an article, not a number
17:24:11 <Taneb> You can't add three to a
17:24:19 <int-e> > reverse . sort $ "one" -- arguably sorted as well
17:24:39 <Taneb> int-e, that's maximally unsorted!
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19:03:05 <quintopia> Taneb: this is great for a trivia contests thx
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19:06:07 <hppavilion[1]> Should I make the language based on english syntactically (e.g. variables are [a-zA-Z_][a-zA-Z0-9_]*, and Δ an operator), or should I make it so that the entire language allows for a wide variety of languages to be used (Δ would be a variable)?
19:06:24 <hppavilion[1]> I have a feeling the second one is more correct, but the first makes code look cooler xD
19:10:11 <Taneb> quintopia, "four" is the only number in the English language with as many letters as its value
19:12:23 <hppavilion[1]> I count polynomials as numbers because "close enough"
19:12:37 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], polynomials aren't words in the English language
19:13:10 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: x is a term, and thus could be used alone in a text ("so if we assume that x is equal to 1...")
19:13:54 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], I disagree; we use names in text (such as "hppavilion[1]") but I wouldn't put them in a Crossword or play them in Scrabble
19:14:59 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Crossword clue: "This man attempted to take over the world (vertical 12+5i) (vertical is, like, up and down (so towards your face when looking directly down))
19:15:27 <hppavilion[1]> Answer: Napoleon, but good luck writing it in the 3d complex manifold crossword puzzle.
19:15:49 <myname> the definition of a word is actually quite hard
19:16:30 <myname> https://youtu.be/Vu3eDf4p0r0
19:16:43 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Internet is filtered at my location. Can you give me the tl;dr?
19:19:23 <hppavilion[1]> myname: What do you think of the idea of Unilang? A unified, unicode-based declarative programming language
19:20:37 <myname> how so? on the "a language like unicode" thing i first thought youkd want to make something with as much useless and clattered stuf as possible
19:20:47 <myname> but then again, there is already c++
19:21:26 <hppavilion[1]> Yes, it is pretty cluttered and will feature some pretty useless things xD
19:22:04 <hppavilion[1]> The idea is a standard sort of programming language. Not a "global overarching standard" like unicode is, of course, but a sort of option language based on various other languages for expressing algorithms and such
19:23:02 <hppavilion[1]> myname: A language entirely based on arithmetical expressions
19:23:56 <myname> "i want sometjing like haskell, but less beautiful"
19:24:02 <hppavilion[1]> Because Haskell is the goddamn <insert beautiful celebrity here> of programming languages.
19:24:24 <myname> i do like the idea of curry
19:24:49 <myname> it's like "hey, let's take that language and put more awesomeness in it"
19:28:17 <myname> also, i like the non-determinism
19:28:33 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Well. I read a fraction of the Wiki article on APL and took out the ideas I liked
19:28:57 <myname> is tje definition of ? in curry
19:29:23 <myname> it chooses either a or b
19:29:49 <myname> yes, but in a way that it still fits all boundaries
19:30:49 <myname> insert x (y:ys) = y: insert x ys
19:30:58 <myname> puts an element anywhere in a list
19:32:23 <myname> permutation (x:xs) = insert x (permutation xs)
19:34:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46078&oldid=46075 * Albedo * (+8) /* File related I/O */ text formatting
19:35:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46079&oldid=46078 * Albedo * (-2) /* File related I/O */ typos
19:35:40 <myname> does anybody have contact to the beeswax author?
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20:52:17 <Taneb> A coalgebra is just like in high school maths but with the arrows reversed
20:52:26 <ais523> but high school maths doesn't have arrows
20:52:33 <ais523> except occasionally above vectors
20:52:57 <myname> reversed vector arrows would be funny
20:53:09 <Taneb> ais523, that I am afraid was most of the joke
20:54:03 <ais523> so are coroutines just routines with reversed arrows?
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20:55:27 <myname> goroutines are just routines that walk instread of running
20:56:44 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/robots,/Lambek'\''s lemma, &/' wisdom/tanebvention
20:57:22 <shachaf> Taneb is obviously an expert in coalgebras, having invented Lambek's lemma
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21:01:24 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, robots, cigars, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
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21:02:59 <shachaf> did Taneb invent Lambek's lemma directly or did Taneb invent Lambek who then invented the lemma
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21:03:22 <Taneb> shachaf, I do not think inventions are transitive but I do not think they are anti-transitive either
21:04:21 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: um, all soprts are eso
21:04:37 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Yes, but this is a sport based around Eso/langs/
21:04:47 <hppavilion[1]> An individual or group provides a parser to the players
21:04:57 <hppavilion[1]> Each player or group of players takes it and attempts to make a language
21:05:12 <hppavilion[1]> Whoever makes the best language, at the discretion of a group of judges or the host, wins.
21:07:32 <hppavilion[1]> "Best" may mean most eso (pure) or most logical and usable (working with what you have)
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21:12:56 <hppavilion[2]> I mayormaynot already have a lexer and parser prepared for it
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21:31:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Parser Alpha]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46080 * Hppavilion1 * (+314) Created Page
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21:49:46 <haavard> What about this: an esolang interpreter/compiler for which you have to figure out the language
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21:50:32 <MDude> So it would be a different language for each instalation, but stay consistant over time?
21:52:13 <ais523> I think haavard just means that you get the interp as a binary blob (or possibly even with source code) and you have to figure out how the language works by experimentation
21:52:24 <ais523> some of my original plans for Snowflake work like that but even worse
21:52:27 <ais523> but I toned it down a lot
21:52:50 <haavard> Maybe even an online form to which you submit your program, so there's no source or disassembly available
21:53:16 <haavard> And yeah, some language you have to figure out, not an existing one
21:54:34 <Taneb> ais523, it could even be a network black box
21:55:02 <ais523> in which case I hope it gives useful error messages :-)
21:55:13 <ais523> [>+>->[>]><>>>,>.[Hello, world!]]>++
21:55:17 <ais523> there's a hello world in takeover
21:55:37 <MDude> http://esolangs.org/wiki/TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL
21:55:41 <ais523> I decided to use the same 8 chars as BF to confuse people (after I realised I'd naturally chosen a bunch of them anyway)
21:55:50 <ais523> the language is unrelated
21:56:06 <ais523> anyone want to guess how the language works based on that?
21:56:12 <ais523> MDude: well only in that it's an esolang
21:56:47 <MDude> It is also related in that you could have a website that interprets a language similar to TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL
21:57:09 <Taneb> ais523, I'm guessing that in some circumstances [ and ] work as string delimiters
21:57:09 <MDude> But instead of having the language be based on the time of day, it could be different for each user ID.
21:57:25 <ais523> and you're also correct that they don't /always/ work as string delimeters
21:57:28 <MDude> So you would create an account and get a randomly generated language.
21:57:44 <ais523> MDude: oh, we're in separate conversations
21:57:52 <Taneb> ais523, are they sometimes procedure delimiters?
21:57:55 <ais523> I was talking about Takeover, you were apparently talking about the new TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL
21:58:01 <MDude> And it wouldn't tell you which variation it is, do you'd have to reverse-engineer it.
21:58:15 <ais523> Taneb: they sometimes aren't delimeters at all; there isn't much of a distinction between string and procedure delimiters
21:58:38 <ais523> this explains why we were disagreeing with each other :-)
22:00:34 <Taneb> They do, at least in that excerpt, seem to always be matching
22:00:36 <ais523> (my previous comment was to MDude)
22:00:37 <Taneb> This may be a coincidence
22:00:47 <ais523> Taneb: I did that to make the program easier to write
22:01:02 <ais523> the second [ and first ] have no reason to match each other, but the first and last have to match
22:01:16 <ais523> and thus I made the ones inside match too so that they didn't throw off the matching of the outside ones
22:02:18 <ais523> here's an equivalent program to that one (but slightly longer): [>+>->]-[[><>>>,>.[Hello, world!]]>++
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22:06:16 <ais523> most of the awkwardness in the language is to do with the use-mention distinction, which is kind-of more fluid than normal
22:07:52 <Taneb> This is a very small rosetta stone to decode a language from, and that's not something I'm hugely good at in the first place
22:08:14 <ais523> indeed, I wasn't really expecting someone to figure it out, just as a thought process to see how difficult it would be
22:08:20 <ais523> I haven't written any larger programs yet
22:08:39 <ais523> even the hello world took a while to get working; I wrote it correctly the first time but was failing due to interp bugs
22:10:02 <ais523> well I got suspicious when the debug mode said that none of the commands were doing anything at all
22:10:33 <haavard> I really hope the example programs I pulled off the Internet are actually correct, otherwise using them as test cases would be a bad idea
22:11:38 <ais523> haavard: which language?
22:13:34 <ais523> that comes up at PPCG every now and then
22:13:51 <ais523> (also I don't get which PPCG caught on at Stack Exchange when it's one of the worst possible platforms for that sort of thing)
22:15:19 <haavard> Yeah, I was pretty amazed when I discovered someone actually wrote programs for my language :p
22:16:49 <ais523> oh, that's your language?
22:16:57 <ais523> it's about the right sort of power to make codegolf interesting
22:17:03 <ais523> (I suspect Takeover might be a little too weak
22:17:09 <ais523> let me post an interp and the spec
22:17:58 <haavard> Yeah, it's something I puzzled up years ago
22:18:30 <haavard> Writing a new interpreter now, the old one probably sucks :P
22:19:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46081&oldid=46048 * Ais523 * (+15) /* T */ +[[Takeover]]
22:20:44 <shachaf> ais523: Are coalgebras found in naughty category theorists' stockings?
22:23:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Takeover]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46082 * Ais523 * (+17083) new esolang
22:23:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Yearcats]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46083&oldid=41593 * Ais523 * (+26) happy new year
22:24:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:2016]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46084 * Ais523 * (+11) happy new year
22:25:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46085&oldid=46039 * Ais523 * (+14) +[[Takeover]] (wow this list is getting long)
22:26:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46086&oldid=46027 * Ais523 * (+67) /* Takeover */ new section
22:27:37 <ais523> Taneb: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Takeover if you want to see how the language works :-)
22:29:06 <Taneb> btw what I've been calling my Eodermdrome exam went well today
22:29:53 <ais523> you had an exam on Eodermdrome?
22:30:29 <Taneb> I had an exam on programming by graph transformation
22:31:17 <Taneb> Which... actually does it about as differently from Eodermdrome as possible
22:31:25 <Taneb> It's based on directed graphs, for a start
22:32:16 <Taneb> ais523, if you're up to date with all the various graph programming languages used by precisely one department in one university, the lecturer is the creator of GP and GP2
22:32:47 <ais523> although having labels on the nodes, and directed arcs, makes programming a lot easier
22:33:10 <Taneb> Is https://www.cs.york.ac.uk/plasma/publications/pdf/Plump.WRS.11.pdf publicly accessible?
22:33:32 <Taneb> That's the design of GP 2
22:33:36 <Taneb> As you can tell from the title of the paper
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22:41:39 <lambdabot> CYUL 052200Z 23009KT 15SM FEW240 M13/M17 A3052 RMK CI1 CI TR SLP342
22:41:51 <lambdabot> KOAK 052153Z 24006KT 10SM FEW013 BKN032 OVC045 11/09 A2972 RMK AO2 RAE40 SLP065 P0000 T01110089
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22:43:20 <lambdabot> Somewhere in DOWNTOWN BURBANK a prostitute is OVERCOOKING a LAMB CHOP!!
22:44:31 <boily> I am not a pinhead. I am sane.
22:44:41 <lambdabot> Mr and Mrs PED, can I borrow 26.7% of the RAYON TEXTILE production of
22:46:31 <lambdabot> RKSI 052230Z 13005KT 9999 SCT040 M02/M11 Q1027 NOSIG
22:56:31 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: weeee).
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23:04:06 <lambdabot> ENVA 052250Z 13009KT CAVOK M12/M17 Q1013 RMK WIND 670FT 12009KT
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23:08:23 <oerjan> the yr.no weather forecast for my place says about -9, also a warning about wildfire danger in places in the region without snow.
23:08:49 <oerjan> perhaps we will have another strangely dry january like 2 years ago
23:09:34 <ais523> "There are of course, certain conditions under which the detector will not indicate the presence of ice: (a) When there is no ice."
23:10:48 <ais523> there was only one other condition listed
23:10:52 <oerjan> looks like it may stay dry but get a little less cold
23:11:06 <Taneb> "When there is no ice, or when the detector is broken"
23:12:35 <ais523> the other condition was about a paragraph but boiled down to "when there is not enough ice to detect"
23:12:42 <ais523> I feel like they missed quite a few, such as that one
23:13:03 <Taneb> "When there is WAY TOO MUCH ICE"
23:13:50 <lambdabot> EFHK 052250Z 02009KT 9999 FEW030 BKN053 M20/M22 Q1010 NOSIG
23:13:58 <lambdabot> EGLL 052250Z AUTO VRB02KT 5000 BR OVC047 06/06 Q0989 NOSIG
23:14:12 <fizzie> Aw, the temperature differential's not getting higher; 26 now.
23:15:46 <shachaf> When I was in EFHK it was 30.
23:16:32 <fizzie> That was probably not in January.
23:16:49 <lambdabot> EGNT 052250Z 11013KT 090V150 9999 -RA BKN009 06/06 Q0992
23:16:49 <fizzie> I doubt it's ever been 30 at EFHK in January. Well, indoors maybe.
23:17:06 <Taneb> I hear that some of those numbers represent temperature
23:17:27 <Taneb> ...temperature 80 miles away from here
23:17:30 <fizzie> It can easily be 00 at EFHK in January, though, so M20 does count as pretty cold.
23:18:18 <shachaf> If you ask me M20 is too cold.
23:18:22 <lambdabot> EGBB 052250Z VRB03KT 3900 RA SCT006 BKN049 06/06 Q0989
23:18:49 <fizzie> shachaf: The Finnish weather site I usually use says it's "feels like" value is -30°.
23:19:04 <ais523> temperature = dew point, does that mean no humidity?
23:19:10 <boily> M20 is interesting. my moustache and beard freeze.
23:19:27 <boily> ais523: it means 100% humidity hth
23:20:54 <fizzie> The forecast says it'll stay that cold until Friday (nightly lows at -25, -26, -26) but then on Sunday day it'll be at 0 (-7 at night).
23:20:55 <ais523> hmm, Wikipedia's example METAR has the wind at 120°, varying from 290° to 310°
23:20:59 <ais523> something seems wrong with tis
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23:21:33 <ais523> fizzie: what temperature is it like indoors? and how often do you have to go outdoors in such conditions?
23:21:47 <boily> metacircular winds.
23:22:17 <fizzie> Indoor temperatures generally don't vary, unless you're stuck in an old house or something. They know about insulation.
23:25:22 <ais523> hmm, it's not raining here at the university, but it apparently is at the airort
23:25:47 <ais523> although given the apparent lack of wind, it might take a while for the rain to get here, if indeed it's even moving in this direction
23:25:51 <fizzie> Well, I mean, they do vary in the sense that in the summer indoor temperatures are unbearably hot for a few days, because they *don't* know about air conditioning.
23:26:58 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever lived anywhere with inadequate heating or drafty rooms for a long period of time.
23:27:44 <Taneb> The university here has a weather station, but lambdabot doesn't know about it
23:28:29 <fizzie> This current place is all-electric heating, so the indoor temperature is whatever we configure the radiators at, and then it just costs more. I think we're paying some ridiculous multiple of what our power bill in Finland used to be, here.
23:29:51 <fizzie> (District heating is very widespread in Finland, AIUI.)
23:30:06 <oerjan> <Taneb> quintopia, "four" is the only number in the English language with as many letters as its value <-- also, all others converge to it after a few steps
23:30:16 <ais523> electric heating is pretty rare in the UK
23:30:25 <ais523> most places have gas-based central heating
23:30:58 <fizzie> ais523: We don't even have a gas hob, which was somewhat difficult to arrange here.
23:31:15 <oerjan> in norwegian, 2=to, 3=tre, 4=fire all work...
23:31:23 <Taneb> My parents house has gas heating and a wood-burning stove
23:31:26 <ais523> hobs/ovens are about equally split gas/electric in my experience
23:31:45 <ais523> ah right, wood/coal heating is not unheard of
23:32:04 <ais523> you can buy coal/charcoal/firewood at pretty much any petrol station, so presumably there are people who do
23:32:19 <ais523> (en_GB:petrol = en_US:gasoline)
23:32:21 <fizzie> Finnish probably doesn't have any sorted numbers.
23:32:45 <oerjan> fizzie: not about sorting
23:33:10 <fizzie> Oh, this was something else? Right, I didn't even verify.
23:33:44 <ais523> fizzie: numbers whose length equals their numerical value
23:33:44 <fizzie> You can buy charcoal and firewood at pretty much any petrol station in Finland too, but I've always assumed those are mostly for people doing cooking outdoors.
23:34:23 <ais523> for some reason I'm reminded of Last ReSort, which similarly compares two numbers in different units
23:34:45 <fizzie> Kahdeksan (8, length 9) and yhdeksän (9, length 8) are just the wrong way around.
23:34:59 <ais523> those are weird names for numbers!
23:35:06 <oerjan> no. 1=en, ei, ett is pretty sorted. in all genders. i think that's the only number though.
23:35:07 <ais523> (8 and 9, that is; 5 seems reasonable)
23:35:34 <ais523> words which have no repeated letters, and letters in alphabetical order
23:35:47 <ais523> are much loved by NetHack players because you can spell them in prompts
23:35:51 <fizzie> Yksi, kaksi, kolme, neljä, viisi, kuusi, seitsemän, kahdeksan, yhdeksän, kymmenen; yksitoista, kaksitoista, kolmetoista, neljätoista, viisitoista, kuusitoista, seitsemäntoista, kahdeksantoista, yhdeksäntoista; kaksikymmentä, kaksikymmentäyksi, kaksikymmentäkaksi, ... and then it's mostly systematic.
23:35:55 * ais523 tries to remember what the longest words with its letters in sorted order is
23:36:04 <fizzie> As you'd expect, in colloquial speech people abbreviate them.
23:36:14 <Taneb> ais523, spoonfeed is longest in reverse order
23:36:43 <ais523> I once borrowed a book from a library which was basically just about words with unusual properties, including records
23:36:49 <ais523> it's where I got the name "eodermdrome" from
23:37:04 <oerjan> <ais523> something seems wrong with tis <-- the difference is about 180, so presumably it's a toward/away from swap
23:37:20 <ais523> (it was discussing the shortest possible word with a nonplanar adjacency graph)
23:37:29 <fizzie> oerjan: It shouldn't have one, though, according to the METAR decoded instructions I usually look at.
23:38:57 <ais523> `` wc /usr/share/dict/words
23:39:04 <ais523> I hope we have a dictionary in HackEgo
23:39:08 <HackEgo> wc: /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory
23:39:09 <ais523> more fun than doing things locally
23:39:39 <fizzie> The numbers 11..19 are all of the form "<X>toista" where "<X>" is one of 1..9; the suffix "-toista" means approximately "of the second".
23:39:58 <fizzie> So 17 -> "7 of the second [set of ten]".
23:40:28 <fizzie> We don't even have special words for 11 or 12.
23:41:53 <ais523> where is HackEgo physically?
23:41:55 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:41:58 <fizzie> Also when the sorted numbers came up, the /usr/share/dict/words on my work-workstation only had English sorted words for up to length of about 6 when disallowing repetitions.
23:42:09 <fizzie> "almost" was one of them.
23:42:48 <fizzie> I made the obligatory Perl oneliner, it involved a join("", sort { ord($a) <=> ord($b) } split //) construct.
23:43:15 <fizzie> ais523: The fshg browser is not physically where HackEgo is, sorry.
23:43:21 <fizzie> There's a reverse-proxy setup involved.
23:43:32 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
23:43:36 <ais523> fizzie: I'm using its /whois IP
23:43:47 <ais523> which is presumably how it connects to the internet
23:43:58 <fizzie> I just thought `help was related, and didn't think it's probably not cloaked.
23:44:15 <fizzie> That sounded very unlikely.
23:44:23 -!- Trinity has joined.
23:44:23 -!- Trinity has quit (Changing host).
23:44:23 -!- Trinity has joined.
23:44:31 <fizzie> I'd been assuming CloudAtCost is in the states somewhere.
23:44:41 <ais523> `fetch http://ftp.ca.debian.org/debian/pool/main/s/scowl/wamerican_7.1-1_all.deb
23:44:44 <HackEgo> 2016-01-05 23:44:32 URL:http://ftp.ca.debian.org/debian/pool/main/s/scowl/wamerican_7.1-1_all.deb [272134/272134] -> "wamerican_7.1-1_all.deb" [1]
23:44:45 <oerjan> ais523: my understanding is that the finnish words for 8 and 9 are derivations adding a suffix -ks[aä]n to a form of 2 and 1 respectively
23:45:13 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Not really, just sort of helping out occasionally since I've got a thing on the system for maintaining the wiki.
23:45:36 <HackEgo> ar: invalid option -- ' ' \ Usage: ar [emulation options] [-]{dmpqrstx}[abcDfilMNoPsSTuvV] [--plugin <name>] [member-name] [count] archive-file file... \ ar -M [<mri-script] \ commands: \ d - delete file(s) from the archive \ m[ab] - move file(s) in the archive \ p - print file(s) found in the archive \
23:45:58 <fizzie> oerjan: I've never thought about that, but it sounds even almost plausible.
23:46:12 <ais523> what kind of crazy ar impl is this?
23:46:18 <ais523> `` ar t wamerican*.deb
23:46:19 <HackEgo> debian-binary \ control.tar.gz \ data.tar.gz
23:46:31 <ais523> `` ar x wamerican*.deb data.tar.gz
23:46:45 <ais523> `` tar tfz data.tar.gz
23:46:48 <HackEgo> ./ \ ./usr/ \ ./usr/share/ \ ./usr/share/dict/ \ ./usr/share/dict/american-english \ ./usr/share/doc/ \ ./usr/share/doc/wamerican/ \ ./usr/share/doc/wamerican/README.Debian \ ./usr/share/doc/wamerican/changelog.Debian.gz \ ./usr/share/doc/wamerican/copyright \ ./usr/share/doc/wamerican/wamerican.scowl-word-lists-used \ ./usr/share/man/ \ ./usr/s
23:47:35 <ais523> `` tar -xzOf data.tar.gz ./usr/share/dict/american-english > dict-words
23:47:42 <HackEgo> 99171 99171 938848 dict-words
23:47:59 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wamercan*.deb': No such file or directory
23:48:15 <zgrep> `` echo No output.
23:48:22 <ais523> I should have got a Canadian list really but American is the default
23:49:40 <ais523> `` grep a*b*c*d*e*f*g*h*i*j*k*l*m*n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z* dict-words
23:49:41 <HackEgo> A \ A's \ AA's \ AB's \ ABM's \ AC's \ ACTH's \ AI's \ AIDS's \ AM's \ AOL \ AOL's \ ASCII's \ ASL's \ ATM's \ ATP's \ AWOL's \ AZ's \ AZT's \ Aachen \ Aaliyah \ Aaliyah's \ Aaron \ Abbas \ Abbasid \ Abbott \ Abbott's \ Abby \ Abby's \ Abdul \ Abdul's \ Abe \ Abe's \ Abel \ Abel's \ Abelard \ Abelson \ Abelson's \ Aberdeen \ Aberdeen's \ Abernathy
23:49:53 <ais523> `` grep ^a*b*c*d*e*f*g*h*i*j*k*l*m*n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z*$ dict-words
23:49:54 <HackEgo> a \ abbess \ abbey \ abbot \ abet \ abhor \ abhors \ ably \ abort \ abuzz \ accent \ accept \ access \ accost \ ace \ aces \ achoo \ achy \ act \ ad \ add \ adder \ adders \ adds \ adept \ ado \ adopt \ ads \ adz \ aegis \ aery \ affix \ afoot \ aft \ aglow \ ago \ ah \ ahoy \ ail \ ails \ aim \ aims \ air \ airs \ airy \ all \ allot \ allow \ allo
23:50:03 <ais523> so how do I sort by length
23:50:10 <ais523> sort doesn't have an option for that
23:50:31 <fizzie> I usually just print a length column in front.
23:50:36 <fizzie> Then sort -nr and then cut it out.
23:51:05 <ais523> `` grep ^a*b*c*d*e*f*g*h*i*j*k*l*m*n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z*$ dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:51:12 <fizzie> `` grep ^a*b*c*d*e*f*g*h*i*j*k*l*m*n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z*$ dict-words | perl -ne 'print length($_), " ", $_;' | sort -nr | head
23:51:14 <HackEgo> 8 billowy \ 7 knotty \ 7 glossy \ 7 floppy \ 7 floors \ 7 effort \ 7 choppy \ 7 choosy \ 7 chintz \ 7 chinos
23:51:22 <ais523> `` grep ^a*b*c*d*e*f*g*h*i*j*k*l*m*n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z*$ dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a, $_; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:51:23 <HackEgo> billowy \ abbess \ abhors \ accent \ accept \ access \ accost \ adders \ almost \ begins \ bellow \ billow \ biopsy \ cellos \ chills \ chilly \ chimps \ chinos \ chintz \ choosy \ choppy \ effort \ floors \ floppy \ glossy \ knotty \ abbey \ abbot \ abhor \ abort \ abuzz \ achoo \ adder \ adept \ adopt \ aegis \ affix \ afoot \ aglow \ allot \ all
23:51:36 <ais523> not very many such sorted words, it seems
23:52:10 <fizzie> I always even just print length($_) instead of the actual length (counts the newline), since it doesn't change the ordering.
23:52:33 <fizzie> I remember biopsy and almost from the list.
23:52:45 <oerjan> `` find | grep -i word
23:52:56 <HackEgo> ./bin/rainwords \ ./bin/words \ ./bin/word \ ./dict-words \ ./share/WordData \ ./share/WordData/French \ ./share/WordData/GermanMedical \ ./share/WordData/Brazilian \ ./share/WordData/EngUs \ ./share/WordData/Finnish \ ./share/WordData/Bulgarian \ ./share/WordData/Ogerman \ ./share/WordData/EngGb \ ./share/WordData/Catalan \ ./share/WordData/Spa
23:53:15 <ais523> ooh, we have WordData too
23:53:25 <fizzie> It may not be in a reasonable format.
23:53:29 <ais523> but I think that's ngrammed
23:53:45 <oerjan> `` find | grep -i word | grep -v share/WordData
23:53:48 <HackEgo> ./bin/rainwords \ ./bin/words \ ./bin/word \ ./dict-words \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/word.i \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/rainwords.i \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/words.i \ ./.hg/store/data/p7zip__9.20.1/_d_o_c_s/_m_a_n_u_a_l/switches/password.htm.i \ ./.hg/store/data/git-master/t/t4034-diff-words.sh.i \ ./.hg/store/data/share/_word_data \ ./.hg/store/data/share
23:54:02 <shachaf> `` ghc -e 'interact $ unlines . sortBy (compare `on` length) . filter (\x -> x == sort x) . lines' < dict-words
23:54:03 <HackEgo> bash: ghc: command not found
23:54:11 <oerjan> `` find | grep -i word | grep -v share/WordData | grep -v '\.hg'
23:54:15 <HackEgo> ./bin/rainwords \ ./bin/words \ ./bin/word \ ./dict-words \ ./wisdom/word \ ./wisdom/password
23:54:17 <ais523> `` grep ^a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?$ dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a, $_; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:54:33 <ais523> `` grep ^a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?$ dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a, $_; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:54:40 <ais523> what did I get wrong there?
23:54:46 <oerjan> shachaf: Gregor didn't reinstall ghc when he moved servers
23:55:17 <ais523> shouldn't have mattered, but maybe it does
23:55:24 <ais523> `` grep '^a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?$' dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a, $_; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:55:35 <ais523> Taneb: what sort of word is "aegilops"
23:55:46 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
23:55:51 <ais523> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aegilops
23:56:06 <Taneb> ais523, I have a wordlist with a lot of words in it
23:56:10 <ais523> `` egrep '^a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?$' dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a, $_; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:56:11 <HackEgo> certainty \ imprudent \ loquacity \ abstains \ acerbity \ acquaint \ adequacy \ adjacent \ adorably \ airships \ belabors \ chivalry \ chowders \ citadels \ corsairs \ definers \ deforest \ degrades \ develops \ eloquent \ envelops \ foremost \ hindmost \ horsefly \ hostelry \ impudent \ invaders \ mortuary \ ability \ abrades \ abstain \ academy \
23:56:13 <Taneb> Including chthonian
23:56:37 <ais523> in NetHack you can use capital letters as well as lowercase letters to make it work a bit longer
23:56:49 <fizzie> I remember loquacity from the last time the NetHack inventory compatibility topic came up.
23:56:54 <shachaf> NetHack reverses capital and lowercase letter sorting or something, right?
23:57:05 <ais523> shachaf: capitals sort later than lowercase
23:57:12 <ais523> that's not so much "reverse" as just "different from ASCII"
23:57:25 <Taneb> Without any conditions on the words: 61 Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch's
23:57:30 <Taneb> This is a lot of words
23:57:35 <ais523> huh, apparently it used to be spelt ægilops
23:57:44 <fizzie> I have a feeling the place I work, they'd have long lists of words too.
23:57:48 <fizzie> `` file dict-source # this had a relatively amusing result
23:57:48 <ais523> which is a ligature that the topic doesn't have :-P
23:57:49 <HackEgo> dict-source: ERROR: cannot open `dict-source' (No such file or directory)
23:57:57 <HackEgo> dict-words: assembler source, UTF-8 Unicode text
23:58:07 <ais523> who writes asm in UTF-8 :-P
23:58:25 <ais523> I guess it's /shaped/ like asm, but doesn't have nearly enough punctuation and numbers
23:59:04 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
23:59:35 <fizzie> Where I used to work, we had a copy of https://catalog.ldc.upenn.edu/LDC2006T13 which I used a couple of times for random things like this. It's got 13588391 "words".
23:59:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:59:51 <ais523> why does almost every PDF end up leaking internal filename details from the computer it was made via its title?
00:00:11 <ais523> fizzie: in what language? allegedly English?
00:00:31 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, but only very approximately.
00:00:58 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
00:01:02 <ais523> now I wonder what words approximate English has
00:01:11 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
00:01:30 <shachaf> Is that the same as the approximate words that English has?
00:01:33 <oerjan> that uses the WordData, i take
00:01:44 <ais523> which is heavily ngrammed IIRC
00:01:54 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:02:07 <fizzie> It works with a single ` (when it works).
00:02:14 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:02:25 <HackEgo> המיי והסגר אונטו להטעמ סטפל ונתי בתוקפס אופמל שהורמציא שקפת
00:02:25 <HackEgo> ומא הנבי ותו והלו קיבלת בגרמו התשוב ולתפ מדכתבואנט ארשתי
00:02:26 <fizzie> The script does its own argument splitting if it only gets a single argument that contains spaces, or some-such.
00:02:29 <HackEgo> med hmmerial prae marit patro ress beau dez oxb olsen
00:02:36 <fizzie> Just being laggery, apparently.
00:02:45 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined.
00:02:59 <ais523> now I'm wondering what happens if you put hackego `words output into an online translator
00:03:04 <Taneb> That's an interesting interleaving
00:03:06 <HackEgo> bilisen hocherksto joyaisorgangift beiten abwehrbund alitätenpaß leben perichenfandar gestwärtne verabzügen torischwing schlagenwein pferia hufernzugenerandel metrat mannen fache maeclaviaturbeisener nidiposumker hilfe
00:03:17 <ais523> at least one of those is a real word
00:03:30 <HackEgo> יאמצני ונתגדו וקל מטפו ונכר ועבד קסיסמא וביז שחששו ותח וישאל בכונת שהקולין ההזיולם טוטיפותר ומספי במלח והמפו כשנמר הזדים
00:03:58 <ais523> some were capitalized in various ways
00:04:23 <fizzie> It also translated abwehrbund to "defense bund", leben to "live", schlagenwein to "beat wine", fache to "times" and hilfe to "Help".
00:04:24 <ais523> "abwehrbund" translates to "defense bund", apparently
00:05:05 <ais523> the translations of leben and hilfe are actually correct, apart from possibly capitalization
00:05:11 <oerjan> leben and hilfe are correct, anyway
00:05:15 <HackEgo> étaire kovt lix lacic lirmat locailr hocquité fuvre plicoppe cba ems sylloukhostrie brabort fandres réinsurs litères eduimamiti deredaireronné koiserlartine befulat
00:05:24 <shachaf> Ewige Blumenwein Und Ewige Schlangenwein
00:05:51 <oerjan> shachaf: schlagen, not schlangen hth
00:06:00 <ais523> wow, only one change on the French (litères → Literes)
00:06:00 <oerjan> pretty sure that's different
00:06:13 <shachaf> oerjan: schangenkraft, not schagenkraft hth
00:06:43 <HackEgo> sballere inendo carla predierò curerò procura all'offuma attimbre redeno fruschi spell'augura rapandosi sonacano faccendi abbagliente appandoccusa trasbottammo marrete consavamo riatenere
00:06:47 <shachaf> snake wine is the fancy version of snake oil
00:07:00 <oerjan> shachaf: oh i assumed you were starting from the schlagenwein
00:07:14 <shachaf> i was combining schagenwein and schlangenkraft
00:07:25 <shachaf> why'd you have to make me go and type it out like that
00:07:28 <fizzie> The headlines of the biggest Finnish newspaper today mentioned how Google Translate was translating "Російська Федерація" (Russian Federation) in Ukranian → Russian mode to Мордор (Mordor).
00:07:31 <ais523> we have some words there, "curerò procura" becomes "heal attorney"
00:07:34 <fizzie> The perils of machine learning.
00:07:51 <shachaf> snake wine salesmen tend to be snobs
00:07:52 <ais523> fizzie: intentional Googlebomb? or some sort of crazy accident?
00:08:13 <ais523> (also, is the input being given there spelled in Russian or in Ukranian?)
00:08:29 <fizzie> I think it's in Ukranian, but I'm certainly no expert.
00:08:30 <ais523> shachaf: is snake wine fermented snake oil?
00:08:58 <shachaf> fizzie: did you know the meaning of "sgtm" a year ago
00:09:00 <fizzie> I think our official comment is that it's just an accident, and not really all that crazy either.
00:09:29 <oerjan> the russian is Российская Федерация
00:09:42 <fizzie> shachaf: I think so, but I'm not 100% sure. Certainly it feels now as if I'd always known it.
00:09:54 <oerjan> russian no longer uses і
00:10:16 <shachaf> I used it in another channel and someone deduced my employment history from it.
00:10:32 <shachaf> And I looked in my email history and apparently I never used it before 2013.
00:10:37 <ais523> shachaf: I don't know what it stands for, altough I'm guessing "sounds/seems good to me"
00:10:42 <ais523> from reverse etymology
00:10:43 <shachaf> But now I think it was always common.
00:11:06 <ais523> at Agora, very occasionally, people will write a message entirely as an acronym, and sometimes people figure out what it was meant to be
00:11:17 <shachaf> ais523: That's also true in this channel.
00:11:25 <fizzie> shachaf: Today was my first Googleversary.
00:11:30 <ais523> well this channel and Agora have quite an overlap
00:11:43 <shachaf> fizzie: did you get balloons?
00:11:47 <ais523> theory: "scow" is actually an acronym but nobody knows what it stands for
00:11:57 <fizzie> Just ones in an email.
00:11:57 <shachaf> I know the etymology of "scow".
00:12:12 <shachaf> You didn't get who balloons?
00:12:25 <shachaf> Or teams balloons or whatever that thing is called.
00:13:06 <shachaf> Maybe you also got ASUs or something.
00:13:37 <fizzie> I don't think I looked at my Teams page.
00:13:51 <fizzie> If that's where something should've been.
00:14:01 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Wed Jan 6 00:14:00 2016
00:14:07 <oerjan> <ais523> we have some words there, "curerò procura" becomes "heal attorney" <-- google messes up the grammar, that should be "i will heal". although it might be ungrammatical without an article... izabera?
00:14:35 <ais523> oerjan: so it's "I will heal the attorney" except that "attorney" is a subject rather than an object?
00:14:55 -!- mauris has joined.
00:15:21 <Taneb> I, an attorney, will heal?
00:16:04 <boily> I'll attorney your wounds.
00:17:51 <Taneb> I was trying to learn Italian but sort of took a break due to exams
00:18:03 <Taneb> Why do I have 5 exams in 4 days? :(
00:18:28 <oerjan> ais523: italian doesn't have noun cases, but i think there should be a "la" in there. except now i check, procura seems to refer to power, not actual persons
00:18:59 <ais523> Taneb: because nowadays exams aren't scheduled for student convenience but for administrator convenience
00:19:13 <shachaf> Taneb: you're being pigeonholed as a student hth
00:19:13 <ais523> I actually noticed a notable decline in timetable quality during my time at school
00:19:18 <ais523> as timetables became more automated
00:19:38 <ais523> shachaf: if you're taking exams, doesn't that kind-of make you a student by definition? I guess you could be an applicant
00:19:53 <fizzie> shachaf: I know Chromium folks also use "sgtm" a lot, so you definitely don't need to be a Google employee to be infected.
00:19:54 <ais523> but most of the time, the purpose of exams is to gauge how much someone has learned, which implies that someone has been teaching them
00:19:58 <fizzie> https://www.chromium.org/glossary
00:19:59 <Taneb> shachaf, I am afraid that I must confess to being a student
00:20:24 <shachaf> fizzie: Did you know about https://cs.chromium.org/ ?
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00:20:46 <shachaf> ais523: It could be an exam for a professional certification or something.
00:21:15 <ais523> shachaf: that's why I included "applicant" as the other possibility
00:21:40 <shachaf> fizzie: It's TG. CS is one of the best things.
00:23:01 <fizzie> shachaf: The Chromium one is lacking in layers.
00:23:27 <fizzie> Though the git views are okay.
00:27:51 <shachaf> fizzie: That page has a much better expansion of SGTM than the one I knew.
00:29:05 <fizzie> I didn't know Grok had been kind of open-sourced as "Kythe".
00:30:45 <Taneb> I don't know what that is
00:32:52 <boily> But I'll Go With It.
00:38:35 <boily> zzo38: hezzo38. today I had a relapse, and I magicked with my coworkers.
00:38:54 <Taneb> I haven't magicked in a while
00:39:01 <Taneb> I avoid it by not owning any cards
00:39:03 <boily> (magiced? magicqued? maybe even a strong verb, and magunk?)
00:39:06 <Taneb> Or spending any money on it
00:39:37 <boily> my bro gave me a nice one for Christmas/Birthday. my færies deck is even more annoying :D
00:40:17 <shachaf> Taneb: when are you visiting california to collect a bunch of cards twh
00:40:28 <ais523> I haven't magicked in ages, although I try to stay up to date with it constantly
00:40:39 <Taneb> shachaf, who knows (tm)
00:40:45 <shachaf> I neither play nor stay up to date.
00:40:52 <ais523> this is mostly because Wizards' design goals are sort-of the opposite of those needed to create a good game
00:41:14 <ais523> (basically they try to rewrite the whole thing every six months)
00:41:15 <shachaf> You mean the design goal of making a lot of money forever?
00:41:20 <boily> I wonder if I can get my hands on a copy of Ashes. the atwork looks nice.
00:41:32 <shachaf> boily: Someone tried to play that with me.
00:41:36 <ais523> shachaf: well they state it as, they want to keep the game fresh, so they shake it up repeatedly
00:41:38 <shachaf> But I complained a bunch and they got annoyed.
00:41:56 <ais523> this is basically because it gets stale very quickly because they're iterating so fast that they don't have time to make a deep game
00:42:44 <tswett> Is that how it works, now?
00:43:20 <ais523> tswett: they even got rid of the core set, apparently because they couldn't work out who it was for
00:43:30 <ais523> (answer: it was for people who wanted a well-tested and balanced game)
00:43:37 <boily> huh? like, 2k15 is the last core?
00:43:46 <ais523> boily: last core set is called "Magic Origins"
00:44:02 <ais523> they changed their naming scheme for it for some reason
00:44:30 <ais523> but the core sets haven't really been proper core sets for a while, because they've also been included in the philosophy of shaking things up
00:44:42 <ais523> as opposed to trying to incrementally improve what they had
00:44:58 <boily> I like formats like Tiny Leaders. you have to think hard to build something worthwile and play it well.
00:45:02 <ais523> hmm, I think this is why people like Legacy
00:45:10 <ais523> boily: Tiny Leaders was solved IIRC, or mostly solved
00:45:22 <boily> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
00:45:30 <ais523> being basically Legacy but much more restricted, thus easier to work out the optimal play
00:45:50 <tswett> I'm not familiar with Tiny Leaders.
00:46:13 <boily> tswett: it's Commander, but 50 card deck, and everything must have a CMC <=3.
00:46:53 <boily> you start with 25 hp, no rules about your commander doing a specific amount of damage, and it costs 2 colourless more each time you want to recast your commander.
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00:49:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46087&oldid=46079 * Albedo * (+34) /* Bitwise operations */ pipe and ! rendering
00:49:41 <tswett> I wonder what the most expensive Modern common cards are.
00:50:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46088&oldid=46087 * Albedo * (+1) /* Global stack (gstack) instructions */
00:51:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46089&oldid=46088 * Albedo * (+17) /* Global stack (gstack) instructions */
00:52:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46090&oldid=46089 * Albedo * (+51) /* Arithmetic operations */
00:52:28 <tswett> Looks like that'd be Serum Visions.
00:53:24 <ais523> the joke is, serum visions isn't even a good card
00:53:27 <ais523> just all the better ones got banned
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01:19:46 <HackEgo> indonesia/Indonesia is a large island country in Asia and the world's most populous muslim country. Its major export is rayon textile from the Indonesian fnord.
01:20:19 <boily> something went wrong somewhere in that, but I can't pinpoint it.
01:25:03 <HackEgo> :-( \ (* \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ butwhatifichangesomething \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dict-words \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ loudly é \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
01:35:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `words: not found
01:35:31 <HackEgo> sgàlla diseaglaide ghòrr teach bhuile miosrat teasadh laid h-inn craoirb
01:37:27 <HackEgo> асновомъ сстверяйте тькиепраштейские сакокладыге подвор полописы бабачившего ходингв прикоа хабастаю
01:39:36 <boily> as egregious Russian consonant clusters are, I highly doubt there are any words that begin with sstv.
01:39:55 <boily> `` words --french 10
01:39:57 <HackEgo> wilit oaso impiusquerenceaux château touesourvi accompli hunt chémont ngit korfage
01:40:24 <boily> château et accompli are legit.
01:40:46 <boily> `` words --french 10
01:40:48 <HackEgo> deki ductionn boursed rhumin aueniaisitabi cableite ble orons fsgt récieriazzo
01:41:29 <HackEgo> sparakvaltningen forskningsavgivninjune høgsklæringer udekstrinensjefene førinstingen øybaroleteneseriaste bombyråene floakk formedisjonsbeslut snøbråsilkene
01:42:02 <coppro> hmm I should write that intercal library I wanted to write
01:42:21 <ais523> coppro: make sure you avoid number clashes :-)
01:42:45 <ais523> there are still a few groups of 1000 left but I advise you to stick to a group of 100 if you can, it'll save space
01:42:57 <oerjan> . o O ( bombyråene sounds like something that is just a political mistake away from existing )
01:43:43 <\oren\> floakk sounds to be like a new, inventive swearword
01:43:58 * ais523 waits for the rest of coppro's sentence
01:44:04 <boily> a floakk is an edible pastry.
01:44:05 <oerjan> floakk obviously is a new and upcoming word describing all the overflowing sewers global warming will bring
01:44:14 <coppro> ais523: the goal is to operand overload .4 to return a random number
01:44:33 <ais523> you still need some line numbers for that though :-)
01:44:44 <ais523> what's .4 normally used for?
01:44:46 <oerjan> boily: i think you would be hard-pressed to get norwegians to eat something rhyming with kloakk hth
01:44:57 <coppro> ais523: probably as a general-purpose register
01:45:06 <ais523> no, it's one of the argument registers
01:45:18 <ais523> but they tend to be used in fairly consistent ways
01:45:27 <boily> oerjan: I think I can translate that without the help of any machine. bletch!
01:45:30 <ais523> for full xkcdness I guess you should overload #4
01:45:43 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
01:45:51 <ais523> so now what I'm wondering is whether you can put a CREATEd operator into an operand overload
01:46:04 <ais523> strikes me as the only way to get nondeterministic overloads
01:46:26 <ais523> my guess is no, although perhaps there's some way to make it work?
01:46:34 <ais523> I need to redo that code anyway to work violin into it
01:46:49 <ais523> oh, there's no reason it wouldn't work for a forward use
01:46:55 <ais523> but what about a reverse assignment?
01:47:04 <coppro> what about quantumly overloading it?
01:47:32 <ais523> that's a CLC-INTERCAL thing which is more like multithreading than anything else
01:47:39 <ais523> `! c-intercal DO READ OUT #4 DO GIVE UP
01:47:40 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/c-intercal: not found
01:47:44 <ais523> `! cintercal DO READ OUT #4 DO GIVE UP
01:48:31 <ais523> `! cintercal DO .1 <- .1/#4 DO .1 <- #5 DO READ OUT #4 PLEASE GIVE UP
01:48:34 <HackEgo> ICL277IYOU CAN ONLY DISTORT THE LAWS OF MATHEMATICS SO FAR \ ON THE WAY TO 1 \ CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT
01:48:45 <ais523> oh it doesn't run with -v by default
01:48:50 <ais523> need to try this locally
01:49:23 <oerjan> boily: i thought so too
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01:53:09 <HackEgo> fentimans is a delicious beverage out from Hexham, that can be paired with a fresh fternooner for a nutritive midday snack.
02:02:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?fternooner: not found
02:02:19 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
02:03:34 <HackEgo> Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
02:03:58 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
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02:30:21 <oerjan> zgrep: they're not actually identical, although your client may accidentally convert between them when pasting
02:33:51 <oerjan> alas, with myndzi gone the reasons may no longer be obvious.
02:34:44 <FireFly> is it a combining overline vs. non-combining difference?
02:35:10 <FireFly> or some nonprintable within it maybe
02:35:52 <FireFly> `` \? hutenosa | unidecode
02:36:33 <FireFly> probably would've been too long output either way
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02:37:25 <oerjan> oh. unidecode doesn't pipe.
02:38:05 <HackEgo> [U+007A LATIN SMALL LETTER Z] [U+003F QUESTION MARK] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+00AF MACRON] [U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+005F LOW LINE] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0029 RIGHT PARENTHESIS] [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+00AF MACRON]
02:38:30 <oerjan> i don't think you need xargs.
02:39:26 <vanila> someobedy set up us the bong
02:39:30 <FireFly> oerjan: hm, I have a habit of doing foo | xargs bar instead of bar "$(foo)" for some reason
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02:42:08 <vanila> btw you all probably heard about this but someone did brainfu8ck in printf!
02:42:14 <vanila> i was pretty impressed
02:42:18 <vanila> the %n thing is ridiculous
02:42:38 <vanila> i knew it could be used to start off code exec
02:42:50 <vanila> but this guy did all the computation in a format string
02:44:02 <ais523> vanila: I heard people reference it but didn't see the original
02:45:19 <vanila> https://github.com/HexHive/printbf
02:45:24 <vanila> i have to find it that takes finite time
02:45:40 <ais523> right, just "sure" is a weird way to express that so I was a little confused
02:45:55 <ais523> I thought it might be that you were looking for the link but wasn't sure
02:46:00 <vanila> but yeah i love these "found" computers
02:46:20 <vanila> ROP is my favorite because it's like moss growing in the cracks of a wall
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02:47:58 <ais523> vanila: I was messing about with them even before I'd heard of esolangs
02:48:06 <ais523> called it "alternate programming"
02:48:18 <ais523> but most of the things I looked at were very sub-TC
02:48:22 <vanila> i don't know if i was befoer i heard about esolangs
02:48:29 <vanila> subTC is really interesting
02:48:54 <ais523> (although now I'm wondering, what if you run it in monochrome mode so that the fill tool does patterns? still subTC but might be more powerful)
02:49:17 <vanila> probably some modular arithmetic stuff becomes possible with paterns
02:50:30 <zgrep> oerjan: I believe it might.
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02:52:04 <zgrep> Hah, they're not identical! :D
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02:54:49 <zgrep> oerjan: No, my client does not do that. HackEgo was using ¯\(°_o)/¯ and I copied that.
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03:00:31 <oerjan> zgrep: oh hm right. i was misremembering which way the wisdom goes.
03:03:44 <mauris__> today i had the sudden realization that "myndzi" is probably pronounced as/derived from "mind's eye"
03:04:22 <mauris__> (i'd been mentally pronouncing it as min-dzee AND I WON'T STOP)
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03:12:58 <ais523> hmm, that construction relies on printf reading the format string lazily
03:13:08 <ais523> admittedly, most printfs will, there's no reason to scan it in advance
03:13:21 <ais523> other than to prevent specifically that exploit
03:15:09 <ais523> I also suspect it's sub-TC due to stack underflow
03:15:40 <ais523> eventually printf will be reading arguments from stack locations that are before the start of the stack, and even if you have arbitrary control over memory, you still can't write to an unmapped address
03:21:11 <ais523> "nginx rewrote their own version of printf() and removed “ %n ”"
03:21:22 <ais523> haha, that's one way to avoid format string vulnerabilities :-)
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03:29:47 <zzo38> The SQL function "PRINTF" in SQLite also disables "%n"
03:32:06 <zzo38> (The internal code still implements it, it just disables it when the list of arguments is a list of dynamically-typed SQL values)
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05:28:15 <hppavilion[2]> I think I'll create an Esolangs community on Google+
05:28:37 <hppavilion[2]> I just published a short article/advertisement of the community on the Programming G+ community
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05:58:56 <zzo38> Do you have other ideas to make custom Magic: the Gathering cards or puzzle or variant rule or whatever else?
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06:23:13 <ais523> zzo38: one I have made: cost {G}, instant, effect "Look at the top three cards of your library. You may put a land card from among them onto the battlefield. Place the rest on top of your library in any order."
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06:28:50 <zzo38> ais523: OK thanks, what did you call it and do you think it is reasonable?
06:29:13 <ais523> I haven't called it anything yet, and I think it's reasonable: the aim was to create a green cantrip-like spell to compete with the blue ones in Legacy
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06:30:57 <zzo38> Did you make the database or card list file or whatever? Or even posted this idea anywhere else than right here right now?
06:31:55 <zzo38> Also, how can I do in Linux, I want to use the mail system but treat local mail differently from mail received remotely, and also to use a different SMTP server for sending than for receiving messages. For example I do not want the email address to contain local usernames, but if a local user types something like "mail user1" then it is a local username.
06:32:20 <haavard> Make something stronger than Serum Visions but weaker than Ponder and have Wizards pick it up
06:32:24 <haavard> Need something modern legal ;)
06:32:25 <ais523> zzo38: I haven't posted most of my ideas online, that was the first time I posted one I think
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06:32:40 <ais523> haavard: preordain is such a card, but it's also banned in modern
06:32:49 <ais523> there's opt but it's even weaker than serum visions I think
06:35:07 <zzo38> One idea I had is "You may force target player to draw three cards" (a variant of Jace's Ingenuity, except that you can force other players to draw cards too, like Ancestral Recall but costs more and is abortable)
06:35:51 <ais523> zzo38: that's worded "you may have target player draw three cards" I think
06:36:10 <ais523> but the situations in which you'd abort such a spell are very rare
06:36:20 <ais523> so I doubt Wizards would print it because it'd mean extra clicks in Magic Online
06:40:40 <zzo38> I don't expect Wizards of the Coast to really print any of my stuff; it is mainly for use in custom games
06:50:56 <zzo38> Ancestral Recall was originally designed to allow you to force opponent to draw cards as well as you (although it can now be used on teammates too; when it was designed there was no team game). Many cards only work on you and I don't like it much
06:53:34 <zzo38> I do now have the service to post the comments of my custom cards on the webpage, by use of web browser or curl. However, these custom cards are also available as plain text and SQLite database (the SQLite database includes the user comments too).
06:53:36 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, that's a nice card. if it was a sorcery rather than an instant, then it looks plausibly printable.
06:54:25 <ais523> zzo38: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/pointcounterpoint-targeted-card-draw-2012-03-23 http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/pointcounterpoint-targeted-card-draw-2012-03-28
06:54:26 <zzo38> Why don't you write comment on my card yet? We should put it there in the place so that also other people even if on different IRC or not at all can also to read/write comment same including to reply
06:54:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: there are some blue cards that can have anyone draw cards, but they aren't optional (as in "may") usually, and they're rare because it's not worth the extra text over just "Draw three cards."
06:54:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you want an instant or a sorcery?
06:54:43 <b_jonas> for card draw, instant sometimes has extra cost
06:54:53 <ais523> zzo38: those are articles by R&D arguing the case for and against card draw spells having targets, respectively
06:55:04 <zzo38> The card I described is an instant, and has the same cost as Jace's Ingenuity, it is what I designed it as.
06:56:14 <zzo38> Look it the file to see
06:57:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's Inspiration; Deep Analysis; Opportunity each of them lets you choose any player
07:03:16 <zzo38> Please look my card (there are some new ones) and write comment too
07:08:56 <hppavilion[1]> Not like haskell, which is AFAICT functions with a side of monads (used for side effects)
07:10:37 <oerjan> functions are a monad too hth
07:11:36 <oerjan> also, a lot of the other monads are wrappers over functions
07:14:50 <ais523> oerjan: it's not so much a wrapper, as identifying functions that happen to have a monadic form, isn't it?
07:15:37 <oerjan> ais523: it's a wrapper for type inference to find the right arguments
07:15:43 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you typing with your feet?
07:15:47 <lambdabot> Source not found. Do you think like you type?
07:15:55 <oerjan> and @src is reliable as always
07:17:03 <oerjan> @unmtl ReaderT s (Writer s) a
07:17:14 <oerjan> same function, different monad.
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07:58:49 <zzo38> ais523: I looked at part of the first one so far
07:59:14 <ais523> zzo38: the first one agrees with you (although possibly has different reasoning), the secondd one disagrees
07:59:30 <zzo38> However as I have shown there are even more possibilities
07:59:51 <zzo38> And I think both kind of card are OK to have in the game.
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08:04:30 <zzo38> I do believe it should be targeted by default though, although nevertheless with many different kind of card available can make the game more diverse.
08:04:58 <myname> lol, there are joke mosquitos
08:06:16 <zzo38> Puzzles are also one point in such diversity, but not the only reason
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08:20:34 <zzo38> I looked at the two versions of "Raging Centaur" in the second article. They say many people prefer the first, although to me I prefer the second, not only because 1 more toughness but there may be possibility of advantage of the ability (which they even admit). However, the second version does have a clear disadvantage in Commander.
08:23:03 <ais523> zzo38: because it's harder to fit into decks?
08:23:19 <ais523> if you're playing BG anyway it's better I think
08:25:40 <hppavilion[1]> So back to my idea about 3-sign numbers for no apparent reason
08:26:01 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: have you seen quaternions?
08:26:07 <ais523> they have 8 signs though
08:26:15 <zzo38> Yes, if you are playing both black and green it is better even in Commander.
08:26:33 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I'm pretty sure at least one person hasn't
08:26:36 <zzo38> If you are not playing black then you cannot use it in Commander.
08:26:39 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I'm going for a simple extension of the naturals
08:27:17 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Well yes, we're excluding Roger when we discuss this sort of thing.
08:27:43 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: It's just notation, so you could say it does, or doesn't, or that it doesn't matter in the slightest.
08:30:02 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: what rules do your system obey? for example, is ~0 = $0 = &0 or not?
08:30:35 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Yes, 0 is signless (or all signs, or its own sign)
08:30:47 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: The craziest thing is that this actually has a use somewhere
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08:31:25 <lifthrasiir> the number system is meaningless without governing rules
08:32:04 <hppavilion[1]> Specifically, hyperoperations. m[~4]b = m log b, whereas m[&4]b = the mth root of b
08:33:11 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: I think I'll start with unary operations
08:34:02 <hppavilion[1]> &$1 = ~1, $&1 = ~1, ~$1 = &1, $~1 = &1, ~&1 = $1, &~1 = $1
08:35:25 <hppavilion[1]> Hopefully, that's consistent if we substitute x for 1
08:36:11 <hppavilion[1]> Did I accidentally just invent modular arithmetic with funny notation? xD
08:37:05 <lifthrasiir> myname: since 0 is signless, not exactly equivalent
08:37:43 <ais523> myname: how does addition work in N × Z₃?
08:38:00 <myname> hppavilion[1]: afair there is only one group with 3 elements
08:38:15 <myname> ais523: depends. couöd be element wise
08:38:42 <ais523> right, but that wouldn't act very like normal addition
08:38:58 <ais523> in particular, subtraction wouldn't really work at all
08:39:06 <lifthrasiir> myname: also, if it *were* Z_3, then some sign should behave differently from others (and that would be the identity) but it doesn't seem so
08:39:38 <myname> lifthrasiir: oh, right
08:39:45 <myname> hppavilion[1]: cross product
08:39:46 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: But I probably wouldn't do traditional subtraction; I'd do subtraction adjusted for my weird 3-sign system
08:40:02 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I was basically asing what addition meant
08:40:07 <ais523> myname: not cartesian product?
08:40:33 <lifthrasiir> myname: I'm tempting to think it as an extension of GF(4), but not sure, I don't know enough group theory after all
08:41:35 <hppavilion[1]> (The above was a failed attempt to use Haskell-like syntax in speech)
08:43:04 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I never said it was a group or a ring or anything; just that it's numeric and has 3 signs
08:43:32 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well yes, you still want to define addition and subtractoin in a mostly addition/subtraction-like way, though, don't you?
08:43:33 <hppavilion[1]> It'd probably have its own entirely alien set of operations
08:44:03 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Addition if I can, but subtraction doesn't make sense because x-y = x+(-y)
08:44:26 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: x+y-y=x
08:44:41 <myname> well, you just don't have - then
08:45:01 <hppavilion[1]> So it should be more the $, &, and ~ subtraction-like operations
08:46:31 <hppavilion[1]> This will all make hyperoperations much more difficult, not having - xD
08:46:59 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Look up the definition of the hyperoperations and note the -
08:47:18 <hppavilion[1]> These 3-sign numbers, btw, are JUST for the hyperoperations index; not for the operands
08:51:26 <myname> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=2253 it's funny 'cause it's true
09:04:03 <zzo38> It looks like the card "Cleansing" even allow you to pay life to protect opponent's lands too.
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09:33:03 <b_jonas> How exactly does Cut the Tethers work? Does first the active player choose which spirits they own to pay for, possibly activates mana abilities and makes all the payments, then the other players make choices after those payments are done, and finally spirits are returned to their owner's hands?
09:33:45 <b_jonas> And what happens if some permanents become Spirits, or new Spirits are put into play (eg. by Forbidden Orchard), or some Spirits change ownership while paying?
09:35:05 <zzo38> Let me to see the rules to see if it mention its working
09:35:43 <zzo38> As far as I know it doesn't seem to mention "for each" effects but I may be misremembering
09:36:25 <b_jonas> Even if not "for each" specifically, there are lots of general rules that may be covering this.
09:37:54 <zzo38> The rules ought to define what "for each" means in order to make it clear.
09:38:13 <b_jonas> There's rule 101.4 and stuff like that
09:42:20 <zzo38> Rule 101.4 describes APNAP order, although it also gives an example, which may be of use.
09:45:06 <zzo38> Does rule 608.2g apply?
09:47:32 <zzo38> It still fails to explain exactly what "for each" means though
09:48:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm asking on efnet/#mtgrules currently
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09:52:46 <zzo38> Maybe it is like this: the active player chooses which Spirits to avoid returning, and then the nonactive player does, and then each player who chose to avoid returning can activate mana abilities, and then the mana is paid, and then all are returned simultaneously. I am not sure though; it may be wrong.
09:55:10 <zzo38> (What I mean is that before that, it is determined which permanents are Spirits and all of those ones are selected)
09:56:18 <zzo38> But it just seems unclear to me.
09:56:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: that would be very hard to imagine, because my payments can influence not only the set of spirits, but also how the opponent can activate mana abilities and/or how much mana he can get from them
09:57:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: so I don't see how you could make all the choices before paying
09:58:43 <b_jonas> efnet/SFT says, without referring to rules, that first the set of spirits is locked in, then the active player makes all choices and does all payment, then the other players do all payment, then the other spirits remembered are returned
09:59:17 <b_jonas> Cleansing is, incidentally, more horrible.
09:59:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46091&oldid=45679 * Rdebath * (+1172) /* Shortest known "hello world" program. */ new section
10:00:39 <zzo38> I did realize that the set of Spirits must be locked in first, as the rules seem to mean that.
10:00:43 <b_jonas> ais523: care to weigh in? The question is how resolving Cut the Tethers works, since when paying mana abilities, the set of Spirits may change.
10:00:53 <ais523> let me look at that card
10:01:38 <b_jonas> "<b_jonas> How exactly does Cut the Tethers work? Does first the active player choose which spirits they own to pay for, possibly activates mana abilities and makes all the payments, then the other players make choices after those payments are done, and finally spirits are returned to their owner's hands?"
10:02:18 <ais523> I'd say you iterate over the spirits in turn in the usual order (I forget what that is) and for each spirit, when you come to it in the iteration, you can pay {3}, if you don't and it's still on the battlefield it bounces
10:02:34 <ais523> not sure though, don't have the rules memorized
10:02:39 <ais523> clearly we should be asking coppro about this
10:03:24 <ais523> (what's the most ridiculous possible situation? I'm trying to figure out a way for a card to become a Spirit as the result of paying a mana ability)
10:03:43 <ais523> (which probably involves sacrificing an animated enchantment that's disabling the creature type somehow)
10:04:32 <b_jonas> Since rule 610.3 and Banishing Light, you can even have new spirits enter the battlefield when activating a mana ability.
10:05:19 <zzo38> ais523: I think the set of Spirits must be initially locked in, and that choices are made in APNAP order; but again I don't know. However, even so, the rest seem unclear to me
10:05:25 <b_jonas> ais523: sacrifice a liquimetal-coated Lignify to a Krark-Clan Ironworks to turn a card back to a spirit
10:05:27 <ais523> ooh, you use opalescence to animate a banishing light, then sacrifice it to phyrexian altar?
10:05:39 <ais523> heh, we had much the same idea there
10:06:08 <b_jonas> ais523: sacrifice a liquimetal-coated Banishing Light to return a Spirit to the battlefield
10:06:56 <b_jonas> oh, there's a Phyrexian Altar? that might be even better! I was using Ashnod's Altar in my examples
10:07:14 <b_jonas> although Ashnod's Altar is cheaper apparently
10:07:31 <zzo38> There may even be situations in the game where you would want to ensure to do something during a mana step in order to avoid state-based actions that would otherwise occur in between the mana abilities being activated.
10:07:40 <ais523> tbf ashnod's altar is probably better too
10:07:52 <ais523> {2} is better than one mana of any colour IMO
10:07:55 <b_jonas> sure, Ashnod's Altar is more powerful in a real game
10:09:22 <b_jonas> ais523: there are also cycles of land that have mana abilities that sacrifice that land, which can (in theory, not likely in real games) affect how much mana an opponent can pay with Exotic Orchard or Felwar Stone
10:10:30 <ais523> actually there are quite a lot of effects like that
10:10:40 <b_jonas> Reflecting Pool is on your own mana
10:10:58 <ais523> still, same problem for this example
10:11:00 <b_jonas> but of course Ahnod's Altar or Krark-Clan Ironworks can directly sacrifice lands or mana-producing artifacts
10:11:14 <ais523> although cut the tethers doesn't care about colour, we can make it care by sacrificing the last colour-producing land
10:11:23 <ais523> (which might be, say, a dryad arbor)
10:11:42 <b_jonas> ais523: color matters because if I no longer own a land that produces any _colored_ mana, then the opponent's Exotic Orchard can't produce mana at all
10:11:48 <ais523> yes, that's what I said
10:12:19 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befana YOU PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THIS?!?
10:13:14 <b_jonas> let me look this up, there were rules clearly stating that at least for paying the mana costs of a spell or ability, you choose how to pay for everything first, then make the payments all together, but the payments have to be possible, or something
10:13:21 <zzo38> With Cleansing I suppose it might work by first locking the set of all lands, and then the active player chooses which to protect (they don't have to be his own) and pays, and then the nonactive player chooses which to protect (he may choose ones that are already protected) and pays, and then all unprotected lands are destroyed simultaneously. Is that it? I don't know
10:13:41 <ais523> now I'm trying to figure out a set of langs which can't collectively all be tapped for mana, but which can individually all be tapped for mana
10:15:40 <b_jonas> ais523: there are lots of lands that can produce _more_ mana if you sacrifice them, but you can still get fewer mana from them
10:16:14 <ais523> ah right, I didn't mean like that
10:17:16 <zzo38> These kind of thing are reasons why I would intend to design the new card game by writing the rules as a literate computer program with mathematical definitions included, and then the cards also have computer codes associated with them. This way can make the rules much more clear!
10:17:42 <ais523> I have had thoughts about trading card game design
10:18:12 <ais523> that are designed to eliminate memorized information (i.e. all information about the gamestate is conveyed by the position of the cards), and yet be reasonably flexible in how the rules work
10:18:58 <zzo38> (I would also probably intend to design a new literate programming system for this purpose, one thing being to arrange sections in the way which is more suitable for this kind of document. Also probably it will compile into a new VM called CardVM made for this purpose, so it is even a new VM too)
10:21:55 <b_jonas> there's strange lands like Lake of the Dead
10:24:50 <zzo38> ais523: That does look like reasonable I suppose, although it doesn't seem to address the kind of issues that I address?
10:25:11 <ais523> zzo38: well there's nothing inherently open-source or closed-source about rules
10:25:54 <ais523> it'd also have a streamlined computer interface compared to Magic because most of the decisions you could make would be small numbers of choices from large sets, rather than large numbers of choices from small sets
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10:31:57 <zzo38> Maybe you miss the point. While these things I am suggesting would be open-source, it is not the point I am trying to make.
10:33:08 <ais523> zzo38: you think they should be in a programming language not natural language so that they're clearer to enforce
10:33:09 <b_jonas> ais523: right, it should somehow make sure not to have to ask for choices from both players very frequently that are irrelevant for the game most of the time, such as the order triggers go to the stack, the order objects simultanously entering a zone get their timestamps, which replacement effect is applied when there is more than one possible, etc.
10:33:20 <b_jonas> \ such as the order triggers go to the stack, the order objects simultanously entering a zone get their timestamps, which replacement effect is applied when there is more than one possible, etc.
10:33:21 <ais523> zzo38: but Hearthstone and MTGO both work like that, just the rules are closed-souce
10:34:06 <b_jonas> Apparently there are lots of lands from before modern that sacrifice themselves for mana, and I didn't really know about them.
10:34:07 <zzo38> ais523: I can see that, and yet it is a kind of problem, since then it is difficult to know the rules of the game. I don't mean enforcing the rules, I mean even just knowing the rules!
10:34:13 <ais523> b_jonas: probably the biggest choice I made was to not have replacement or triggered abilities; rather, all abilities are activated (for drawback abilities your opponent can activate them for you)
10:34:50 <b_jonas> Sixth edition has a cycle of uncommon lands like Svyelunite Temple that tap for M, or tap and sacrifice for MM;
10:34:50 <ais523> also activated abilities that work from the graveyard only work on the top card in the graveyard
10:35:15 <zzo38> That idea about the top card of graveyard I have actually had too
10:35:59 <b_jonas> Odyssey has a cycle of uncommon lands like Seafloor Debris that tap for M, or tap and sacrifice for one mana of any color.
10:36:07 <ais523> instead of death triggers, basically you just activate the card once it reaches the graveyard
10:36:28 <zzo38> But some of my other ideas would include that the game is design to work whether or not a computer is in use, and that CardVM is completely independent of the user interface and server and client and so on; it only implements game rules and nothing else.
10:36:38 <b_jonas> Invasion has a cycle of common lands like Ancient Spring that tap for M or tap and sacrifice for DE in allied colors.
10:37:14 <zzo38> ais523: Maybe you may also intend that the stack (if any) is only for cards and not activated abilities? It seem to fit what you have said earlier
10:37:19 <haavard> I'm trying to understand what's being discussed here
10:37:27 <haavard> Are you designing a new card game?
10:37:28 <b_jonas> And apart from these three cycles, there are several individual lands like this: Archaeological Dig is an uncommon in invasion that taps for 1 or taps and sacrifices for one mana of any one color.
10:37:42 <ais523> zzo38: yes, in order to activate an ability you move the card itself to the stack
10:37:54 <ais523> haavard: we're discussing potential designs that new card games could use
10:37:56 <b_jonas> Crystal Vein is a strange land that taps and sacrifices for 2.
10:38:17 <zzo38> ais523: Ah, OK, yes that works too
10:38:38 <ais523> and the ability tells you where to put the card once it resolves
10:38:51 <ais523> you can whether it's a cast or an ability by where the card is on the stack
10:39:07 <b_jonas> There are so many cards in Magic and I'm learning about them in a slow pace, and can't keep up with how fast they're published.
10:39:11 <zzo38> Such as if it is placed forward or turned right do you mean?
10:39:14 <ais523> (this also means that most activated abilities can only be cast in response to something, which adds strategy to the ame)
10:39:14 <haavard> I see. And why is b_jonas and zzo38 looking for sac-lands? :P
10:39:27 <ais523> zzo38: no, it's based on whether it's the bottom of the stack or higher
10:39:45 <ais523> also you can only respond to your opponent's actions, not your own (this greatly reduces the number of priority passes)
10:39:56 <zzo38> Yes, that is something to do too
10:40:09 <zzo38> They are interesting ideas
10:41:21 <ais523> you can prevent your opponent activating abilities by just not doing anything, but this is probably a bad idea because you're basically giving your opponent free attacks
10:41:32 <b_jonas> haavard: I'm looking for sac lands because some of those seem to be practically usable so I should buy them, but also they are lands with tap mana abilities that sacrifice a permanent immediately, which has strange rules consequences, somewhat similarly to Krark-Clan Ironworks, Ashnod's Altar, Phyrexian Altar.
10:42:02 <zzo38> Yes I like this you can design such card game too
10:42:36 <haavard> What kind of strange rules consequences are these, b_jonas?
10:43:03 <b_jonas> (At least the latter ones don't have a tap in them, so they don't trigger "a land is tapped for" rules, although their abilities can still be copied to a land with Quicksilver Elemental or Experiment Kraj and so they can affect Fellwar.)
10:43:43 <b_jonas> Mind you, there's also Phyrexian Tower, which is a land that taps and sacrifices any creature for mana, so it's ruleswise the most horrible.
10:44:12 <ais523> the phyrexians are like that
10:44:49 <b_jonas> haavard: strange rules consequences because you can often activate mana abilities in strange times, like while a player is resolving a spell or ability, or when paying for attack restrictions.
10:44:55 <haavard> Should get Datatog in here.
10:45:00 <zzo38> b_jonas: That means you can even sacrifice a creature during a mana step
10:45:22 <b_jonas> But I looked up those common and uncommon lands because I should consider buying some of them. They are cheaper than the Vivid lands.
10:45:46 <zzo38> If you can active multiple mana ability, even to avoid state-based action in between if doing it during a mana step
10:45:59 <ais523> b_jonas: so say you have yet another æther vortex in play, and you sacrifice a panglacial wurm on top of your library to phyrexian tower to pay for itself
10:46:03 <haavard> Sort of like how Selvala also has weird interactions if she fails to produce enough mana
10:46:32 <ais523> haavard: I think the public Magic rules question answering services ended up vetoing selvala + panglacial wurm questions after a bit
10:48:08 <haavard> That's the one where you search your library, right?
10:48:28 <haavard> And you reveal at the same time, and end up having to reverse everything etc.
10:48:52 <ais523> haavard: it's the one that can be cast from your library while you're searching it
10:48:56 <zzo38> I would completely rewrite the rules for what can be reversed and what happens if impossible
10:49:30 <ais523> actually the main complexity here is that selvala lets you draw a card while you're searching your library, so you need to have kept the library in order during the search
10:49:50 <zzo38> Doing so requires introducing the concepts of "entropy" and "transactional controller"
10:49:53 <ais523> (luckily you can't draw the panglacial wurm itself because I think it's on the stack at that point? which also answers my æther vortex question)
10:50:26 <zzo38> ais523: It seem clear to me how it works, although outside of a puzzle it may be less clear what to do about it I suppose
10:51:23 <zzo38> And also "automatically losing on time"
10:52:23 <ais523> well in a tournament, you play 5 turns after time runs out, it's a draw if nobody wins in that time
10:52:34 <ais523> that's because it's normally very hard to determine who's responsible for the game going slowly
10:52:48 <ais523> with all the priority passes involved
10:54:45 <zzo38> That is also unimportant in puzzles, although I happen to just like the puzzles much more than actual play game anyways
10:57:46 <ais523> I don't really like the gameplay either, I just like the mental exercise of thinking about the game
10:57:53 <ais523> mostly in terms of hypothetical mental deckbuilding
10:58:21 <zzo38> Look at my puzzles and see if you can figure it out!
11:00:32 <zzo38> Yes I made many puzzles of Magic: the Gathering. (Other people have also made many)
11:00:51 <haavard> Neat, got a link? Sounds like fun
11:01:41 <zzo38> Yes. They are http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.1 up to puzzle.6 (although puzzle.1 isn't very good, the rest are better)
11:02:42 <zzo38> (You can look up card texts on Gatherer or something else)
11:03:01 <zzo38> Do you know rules of Magic: the Gathering? If you do not, then it is difficult.
11:03:44 <haavard> I'm pretty familiar with the rules, yeah
11:03:55 <haavard> I'll check these out later when I'm off work :)
11:05:51 <zzo38> I also made up several custom cards (none are used in the puzzles though, nor are these custom cards necessarily fixed), in case you have interest in such thing as that too
11:10:35 <haavard> I don't really find custom Magic interesting unless it's joke cards or something like that
11:13:10 <zzo38> I did make joke cards too but I keep it in a separate file
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11:30:11 <b_jonas> "<ais523> so say you have yet another æther vortex in play, and you sacrifice a panglacial wurm on top of your library to phyrexian tower to pay for itself" -- I don't think that works, because you have to move the card to the stack before deciding how to pay for it.
11:30:29 <ais523> b_jonas: right, I noticed that later
11:31:38 <b_jonas> "<ais523> (luckily you can't draw the panglacial wurm itself because I think it's on the stack at that point? which also answers my æther vortex question)" - ah good
11:32:31 <ais523> b_jonas: selvala has a mana ability where everyone reveals-and-draws a card and you add mana to your mana pool equal to the number of lands revealed
11:32:51 <ais523> which IMO is one of the worst mistakes from a rules perspective ever made
11:33:26 <ais523> might be the number of nonlands revealed, can't remember which, but lands makes more sense really
11:33:38 <b_jonas> oh, Selvala: Explorer Returned from Conspiracy?
11:35:06 <b_jonas> Why is that much worse than mana abilities that let you sacrifice any creature or any artifact? Sacrificing an artifact can cause permanents to return to play, lots of characteristic changes, and also players losing the game.
11:35:56 <zzo38> In my opinion the problem is the rules about rewinding, which could be fixed much better, and avoid some of these problems
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11:37:44 <ais523> b_jonas: because you can't tell with certainty how much mana you're going to get
11:37:55 <ais523> like, you could cast llanowar elves or something like that with only selvala to pay for it
11:38:15 <b_jonas> Oh, I see, the problem is that it adds a variable amount of mana to your pool, so you can't decide how to pay and then do all the payments.
11:38:16 <ais523> then turns out you get 0 mana off the mana ability, but now everyone has looked at the top card of their library
11:38:49 <ais523> IMO that ability should have been restricted to being cast at instant speed
11:39:02 <ais523> there's really no reason to be able to do it at mana ability speed; the cases where that matters are really obscure
11:39:02 <b_jonas> Yes, that is a problem, but it isn't a big problem, in the sense that it can be fixed easily with a rules change on 605.1 to turn that ability not a mana ability.
11:39:27 <b_jonas> ais523: they can still fix that by changing the comprehensive rules or the oracle text of that card
11:39:29 <ais523> (some kind of mana leak effect with split second would do it)
11:39:32 <zzo38> I would do very differently fixed
11:39:34 <ais523> b_jonas: right, and I hope they do
11:40:17 <ais523> although you can get variable mana payments even without selvala, can't you? sacrifice something that doubles mana output as a means of generating mana
11:40:26 <ais523> the difference there is that it's not a random factor, you know in advance that it's going to happen
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11:40:49 <zzo38> If you don't have enough mana, the player in the process of casting the spell concedes if he has not already seen the top card of his opponent's library.
11:41:00 <zzo38> That is how I would write the rules
11:41:05 <b_jonas> Have there already been a way, before Selvala, to find out about hidden information during a mana ability? I think there probably has been, but I wonder how.
11:41:44 <b_jonas> Even if it's a mana ability where you know exactly what mana it will give.
11:42:03 <ais523> b_jonas: mana abilities that draw cards as a side effect while lantern of insight is in play
11:42:11 <ais523> (there are a few mana filterers that also draw cards)
11:42:15 <zzo38> There are some mana ability to draw cards, and there are also replacement effects that can cause various stuff
11:43:11 <b_jonas> ais523: (a) what mana ability draws cards as a side effect, and (b) no, I think there's a specific rule for drawing cards to stop this,
11:43:39 <zzo38> (The Gatherer rulings tell you not to look at those cards, although the rules of the game seem to say no such thing; my proposed way of fixing the rules would be that if you do choose to look at the card that makes it unreversible and forces you to concede if there is no other possibility)
11:43:42 <b_jonas> 401.5 although that's restricted.
11:43:52 <ais523> b_jonas: chromatic sphere
11:44:12 <ais523> rulings say it's a mana ability (which makes sense, as it has no targets and generates mana), but it draws a card
11:44:34 <b_jonas> Ah right, Chromatic Sphere.
11:45:31 <b_jonas> 401.5 covers only the time while a spell or ability is being played, which might be enough, becuse those are the times when a transaction that may have to be reversed is active.
11:45:59 <b_jonas> And 401.6 says the same about the top card of the library
11:46:01 <zzo38> Such thing may also force the transactional controller's teammates to concede, depending on situation, in my proposed rule changes.
11:46:43 <b_jonas> ais523: I think because of 401.5 and 401.6 that example won't cause a player to learn any hidden information while casting a spell,
11:47:04 <b_jonas> although you're right that it can cause information to be learnt while you're paying for an effect, but in that case it's not a problem.
11:47:28 <ais523> b_jonas: so what if you use two chromatic spheres on the same spell
11:47:36 <ais523> with lantern of insight in play
11:47:43 <ais523> does the opponent get to see the second card you draw, and if so, when?
11:47:43 <zzo38> Anyone who deliberate takes advantage of these rules that force someone to concede or to help his teammates, is disqualified.
11:48:00 <b_jonas> ais523: no, because of 401.6
11:48:23 <ais523> but normally if you draw two cards with a "reveal the top card of your library" effect in play, the opponent sees both
11:49:59 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, do you mean whether they see the spell later, after all the reversible stuff ends?
11:50:55 <ais523> I'm vaguely reminded of the questions involving unexpectedly having a sylvan library trigger when you brainstormed earlier in the turn
11:50:59 <ais523> although I forget what the setup is
11:51:28 <ais523> (it suddenly becomes relevant which cards you drew off the brainstorm, which the opponent isn't entitled to know and yet you have to prove)
11:52:02 <b_jonas> I'm sure nobody gets to see the cards _during_ playing any spell or ability, even if that's not the spell or ability relevant for paying, because there's nested Panglacials involved.
11:52:41 <Taneb> My exam this morning (on linear optimization and game theory) did not go well
11:52:51 <Taneb> Largely because I forgot how to do both linear optimization and game theory
11:52:52 <b_jonas> By the way, even though Panglacial used to look really scary to me, I'm starting to think it doesn't really cause any serious rules problems that you wouldn't have otherwise.
11:53:14 <ais523> the only real influence it has is that you can't reorder your library while searching it
11:53:51 <zzo38> Also with my propsed rules: If an action that involved a library being shuffled must be rewound, what happens depends on the history of the game.
11:54:20 <ais523> are there any mana abilities that cause a player to shuffle their library?
11:54:21 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, and also that the cards you found when searching stay in the library (in the same place) until something actually causes you to move them.
11:54:55 <b_jonas> ais523: Lich's Mirror I think
11:55:09 <ais523> b_jonas: haha, beautiful
11:55:17 <ais523> that screws things up much more than just the library shuffle I think
11:55:29 <b_jonas> it still doesn't cause to reveal any information
11:55:38 <ais523> well it also shuffles your hand and all your permanents into your library and draws you seven cards
11:56:05 <ais523> which is a pretty screwy effect for a mana ability to have
11:56:08 <b_jonas> even regardless of mana abilities causing players to lose as a side effect (eg. by saccing a Platinum Angel), it has always been the case that players can leave the game at basically any time by conceding
11:56:31 <b_jonas> why is it a screwy effect?
11:56:47 <ais523> just a large change to the gamestate, there's a lot of zone changes involved
11:56:48 <b_jonas> as in, more screwy than just sacrificing permanents
11:56:57 <ais523> although admittedly most of them can be done individually (sacrifice, card draw)
11:57:27 <b_jonas> like with Chromatic Sphere
11:58:14 <b_jonas> all that while you're still searching your library and you cast a Panglacial?
11:58:26 <b_jonas> as in, you move cards to your library while searching?
11:58:29 <ais523> this is probably the only way to move a card from your graveyard to your hand at mana ability speed though
11:58:57 <ais523> b_jonas: hmm yes, enlarging the library mid-search is a little screwy
11:59:09 <b_jonas> not counting reverting a move from the hand to the graveyard?
11:59:52 <b_jonas> right, that doesn't really count.
12:00:35 <ais523> so let's see: I have lich's mirror in play, play a card that lets me search for (say) two lands, I find one, cast panglacial wurm by paying my last point of life to generate mana, panglacial wurm's on the stack but the land I found ends up in my hand naturally, then I find another land that was previously in my graveyard
12:00:44 <ais523> or does that not work? and if so, why not?
12:01:14 <ais523> when searching, do you do panglacial wurm casting before or after you find things, or both? before makes the most sense rules-wise
12:01:41 <b_jonas> ais523: no, you don't lose from 0 life until state-based actions are ran
12:02:00 <ais523> any way to lose faster than that?
12:02:09 <ais523> (other than conceding which would disrupt the rest of the "combo")
12:03:45 <b_jonas> you could lose a Platinum Angel, but that might not be enough for anything
12:04:09 <b_jonas> maybe I was wrong and you can't lose the game immediately from a mana ability, other than by conceding?
12:05:29 <Taneb> Is there anything like AWK for working with binary data?
12:05:55 <ais523> Taneb: perl with use open IO=>':bytes' is pretty close
12:06:22 <ais523> b_jonas: that works I think
12:06:25 <Taneb> ais523: my goal with this is 70% making my friends look at me funny
12:06:32 <ais523> replacement effect so it copies the speed of the card draw
12:06:35 <b_jonas> and possibly Nefarious Lich if you can somehow get damage dealt during
12:06:37 <Taneb> I guess I could use strings of 1s and 0s
12:06:53 <ais523> Taneb: well that'd be good for making your friends look at you funny
12:07:18 <boily> Taneb: is your data aligned on bytes, or is it a bitstream?
12:07:19 <b_jonas> can you deal damage while activating mana abilities?
12:07:30 <Taneb> boily: it's aligned on 108-bit chunks
12:07:37 <zzo38> b_jonas: I believe some ways to do so yes
12:09:10 <zzo38> Some mana abilities deal damage to their controller
12:09:32 <zzo38> (This damage may be redirected)
12:09:59 <b_jonas> Taneb: that might depend on which implementation of awk you take, but for some awk it is definitely possible, because http://pts.szit.bme.hu/muzcat-mini-latest.tar.gz handles binary data and has a gawk version
12:12:04 <b_jonas> maybe the gawk version doesn't actually work.
12:12:17 <Taneb> I think it'd be fine for me to use strings of 1s and 0s
12:13:09 <b_jonas> There's a compile_gawk.sh but it's not mentioned in the README and it doesn't seem to be actually supported in muzcat.c so I don't think it works.
12:13:13 <b_jonas> I'll have to ask PTS about this.
12:16:21 <Taneb> The issue is I want to do bitwise logic on these to some extent
12:17:43 <Taneb> Oooh, Gawk supports that!
12:18:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: let me recap. while resolving a tutor, you cast a Panglacial from your library, and to pay for it, you tap a Skyshroud Forest, replace its damage with Nefarious Lich, mirror the loss with Lich's Mirror, and that gets cards into your library.
12:20:30 <b_jonas> Lich's Mirror has you shuffle all permanents you own into your library? So if I am so gracious as to Bazaar Trader a Lich's Mirror to an opponent, he can use it repeatedly to replace game loss?
12:20:37 <b_jonas> That's nice of Lich's Mirror.
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12:20:50 <Taneb> Although and("1110", "1011") prints 82
12:20:55 <Taneb> I'm not entirely sure what's going on
12:20:56 <b_jonas> It doesn't cause any rules problem, just wondering.
12:21:18 <Taneb> 82 in binary'd be 1010010 right?
12:22:35 <b_jonas> Taneb: yes, but the and function in awk operates on numbers, and just like perl, awk automatically converts strings to numbers by interpreting them as decimal, unless they have a 0x or something
12:23:10 <b_jonas> I didn't want to know this
12:23:14 <Taneb> I see what I'm doing now
12:23:25 <b_jonas> awk has a variable like perls' $# but BACKWARDS, controlling conversion from number to string
12:24:11 <b_jonas> CONVFMT of gawk is just the same as $# of perl: it controls converting numbers to strings
12:25:11 <b_jonas> although apparently locales might be involved, depending on moon phase and stuff
12:25:16 <b_jonas> I don't want to know the details
12:25:33 <b_jonas> anyway, in simple cases, auto-conversion from string to integer in awk will read decimal
12:25:42 <b_jonas> (I don't generally do awk)
12:26:17 <fizzie> The man says it always just does strtod, but I can't get it to accept hexadecimal floats for some reason.
12:27:38 <ais523> fizzie: does strtod do hexfloats on your system? (and does it depend on compiler flags?)
12:28:02 <fizzie> ais523: My 'man strtod' claims it does, but I didn't verify that.
12:28:28 <fizzie> C11 strtod certainly is supposed to.
12:28:34 <fizzie> (As is the C99 one, I think.)
12:28:35 <ais523> parsing some things you previously didn't parse is a backwards compat change
12:29:25 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, if Panglacial isn't involved, does this mean that while paying the costs of a spell you're playing, you may have to shuffle your library in such a way that most of its cards are still hidden, but that you can revert the shuffling if the playing fails?
12:29:31 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that it might've been a C99 addition.
12:29:37 <b_jonas> that's technically possible, but would be very ugly to do in practice.
12:30:03 <ais523> b_jonas: I guess yes, you could set off a shuffle and draw while playing a spell
12:30:06 <b_jonas> probably you'd postpone physically shuffling the library till later
12:30:25 <ais523> then activate selvala (who was under a banishing light) /after/ that and discover you didn't have enough mana :-)
12:30:49 <ais523> you'd have to shuffle immediately because you need to randomize the top card of your library for the lich's mirror draw and for selvala's ability
12:30:54 <b_jonas> ais523: you don't need Selvala, just a player conceding can be enough to cause you to revert the stuff
12:31:09 <ais523> selvala lets you pull it off in a 2p game
12:31:12 <b_jonas> ais523: you don't have to physically shuffle for that, you can randomize without that
12:31:24 <ais523> this doesn't need panglacial /or/ selvala
12:31:35 <b_jonas> you can probably put off the card drawing till later too
12:31:44 <b_jonas> because nobody can look at the drawn card anyway
12:31:56 <b_jonas> do you'd postpone the physical act of (shuffling and drawing card)
12:32:01 <ais523> what if you're discarding the (face-down) cards for mana
12:32:02 <b_jonas> even if it happens from a game perspective
12:32:19 <b_jonas> ais523: that 4??.? rule regulates that too
12:32:25 <b_jonas> it counts as having no characteristics while it's hidden
12:32:32 <ais523> to try to get enough after your exotic orchards got turned off by an opponent conceding
12:32:55 <ais523> b_jonas: no, I mean is there no ability that lets you simply discard cards to generate mana? (possibly with an extra t in the cost)
12:32:59 <ais523> with no requirements on them?
12:33:24 <b_jonas> ais523: um... I don't think so
12:33:51 <b_jonas> ais523: there's the Spirit Guide but that doesn't help here
12:33:58 <b_jonas> because you can't activate it until the card is revealed
12:34:57 <b_jonas> oh, and also Lion's Eye Diamond (duy)
12:35:01 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, I was going to use another chromatic sphere + chains of mephistopheles
12:35:07 <ais523> lion's eye diamond definitely works too
12:35:22 <ais523> lion's eye diamond is restricted to instant speed
12:35:22 <b_jonas> and Skirge Familiar, the simplest
12:35:39 <ais523> (it's a mana ability but with a timing restriction
12:35:45 <b_jonas> wait, how does Skirge Familiar work?
12:35:58 <ais523> skirge failiar's just a regular mana ability though
12:36:13 <b_jonas> a creature with "Discard a card: Add {B} to your mana pool." and no drawback?
12:36:23 <b_jonas> that seems horribly overpowered even for an Urza's card
12:36:37 <b_jonas> I mean, that's like Channel level broken, isn't it?
12:36:46 <b_jonas> yes, you can't play it first turn
12:36:47 <ais523> no, it's harder to get 19 cards than 19 life
12:37:12 <b_jonas> ok, it's not _that_ broken then
12:37:19 <b_jonas> not more than Ashnod's Altar
12:37:57 <b_jonas> It wouldn't be printed now, but you're right that it's not too broken
12:38:31 <b_jonas> ok, so the question is what happens if you use Skirge Familiar to discard a card you just drew with Chromatic Sphere, all while paying for a spell?
12:39:11 <ais523> here: I cast an expensive spell, filter a mana with chromatic sphere, the draw gets replaced by forbidden crypt and causes me to lose (empty graveyard), which gets replaced by lich's mirror, then I discard the resulting 7 cards to a skirge familiar that came back from under a banishing light (or that an opponent owns but I control), then I try to pay the remaining mana with a shimmering pool that came back from under a different banishing light
12:39:21 <ais523> but in response, my only opponent who controls any colour-producing lands concedes
12:39:48 <ais523> and so I'm short one mana for the spell
12:39:55 <ais523> (without concessions I would be guaranteed to have enough)
12:40:08 <ais523> (also the forbidden crypt gets shuffled in by the lich's mirror so doesn't affect the subsequent card draws)
12:42:33 <b_jonas> SirCmpwn: what's a "shimmering pool"?
12:43:04 <ais523> I mean the land that generates opponent-coloured mana
12:43:08 <b_jonas> probably a mistap and a tab
12:43:11 <ais523> did you somehow typo ais as si?
12:43:21 <b_jonas> no, I probalby just tried to press a tab
12:43:33 <b_jonas> but instead pressed "s" followed by tab
12:43:55 <b_jonas> do you mean a Reflecting Pool? or some other card?
12:44:28 <ais523> I think I meant Exotic Orchard
12:44:32 <b_jonas> there'll be a Mirror Pool in the next expansion, but it doesn't seem relevant
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12:45:12 <ais523> not sure how I got that confused
12:45:18 <ais523> anyway, almost out of battery, and it's lunchtime
12:45:23 -!- ais523 has quit.
12:46:03 <b_jonas> (There's multiple cards with Shimmering, and two of them can give any color.)
12:51:49 <Taneb> AWK seems to use 53 bit integers
12:53:14 <Taneb> Ah, you can set that
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13:18:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: efnet/Athildur claims (without rule proof) that if there's a Chromatic Lantern otb and I use two Chromatic Spheres while casting a spell, then after the spell is successfully cast, opponents get to look at both cards.
13:22:16 <b_jonas> right, he has already seen the first card anyway, before the spell, and will see the next card on top of my library after casting, and the question was whether he sees the second card I draw.
13:23:36 <b_jonas> I also asked what happens if there's no chromatic lantern, but while casting an elephant, I draw a card with Chromatic Sphere and then discard it to Skirge Familiar. They say it's probably permitted, but no answer yet on why you can't look at it.
13:24:52 <zgrep> s/(...)ch/out-\1/fizz
13:25:07 <zgrep> Oh, no regex replacement bot, right.
13:28:38 <zzo38> I just believe that rule 717 needs to be entirely rewritten in order to avoid such problems.
13:29:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: rule 717 should be rewritten for clarity, but I don't think it can be rewritten in such a way to avoid these kinds of problems.
13:30:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think that rule should say that to revert actions, first you revert the whole game state, then any player who had conceded during the transaction leaves the game, with all its consequences, then you continue the game.
13:36:43 <zzo38> I have many ideas about how to fix it though, although it is complicated.
13:38:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jbs1010 * New user account
13:38:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: would the fix have observable rules consequences even when nobody concedes or leaves the game or loses the game even during the actions that are reverted?
13:39:56 <zzo38> The steps you mentioned are part of it, although there would also be a lot of things about what can be reversed and how, and that the transactional controller is forced to concede if reversing it is impossible (with the consequences for conceding you mentioned above)
13:40:54 <zzo38> b_jonas: Let me to think about it; I am not sure
13:48:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: is there anything that's actually impossible to reverse, even with rules fixes that should be done, eg. on Selvala?
13:48:41 <b_jonas> And rules fixes on the Chromatic Sphere plus Skirge Familiar situation.
13:48:54 <b_jonas> And I mean in the comprehensive rules, not in tournament rules.
13:49:15 <b_jonas> The tournament rules have to handle mistakes that can't be reversed, such as accidentally looking at cards that the rules wouldn't allow you to look at.
13:50:14 <zzo38> My proposed fixes would not alter that rule; Selvala could still be used as is, and Chromatic Sphere plus Skirge Familiar could also still be used as is, although if reversing is necessary then the new rule 717 is taken into effect to determine what happens; this depends on whether or not you looked at those cards, as well as on other things.
13:50:49 <b_jonas> there's the infinite loops thing
13:52:01 <b_jonas> I found earlier than the rule about infinite loops that a player can terminate does have impossible and undefined consequences.
13:52:18 <b_jonas> And that does interact with reverting stuff.
13:52:27 <zzo38> Shuffling a library is no longer always impossible to reverse, but in some cases it is impossible.
13:54:05 <zzo38> Same with drawing a card; if you choose not to look at the drawn card, or if you would have already known what the top card of your library was and all players knew this, then it can safely be reversed, otherwise it isn't. But you are not prohibited from looking at the drawn card (you are not forced to either though).
13:55:58 <b_jonas> In the sense of explaining a rules situation, what's the easiest way to cast any card at instant speed? Teferi and Isochron Scepter work only on particular sets of cards.
13:56:42 <b_jonas> I don't mean any card, just any card that can be cast, i.e. a card that's not a land and not of a type that is always in the command zone.
13:56:57 <b_jonas> And I'd like to cast it face up.
13:58:59 <b_jonas> Hmm, as for invented cards, would it make sense to have an instant that simply says "Choose a card from your hand. You may cast that card." ? What would that have to cost?
13:59:05 <b_jonas> no wait, it would have to say nonland
13:59:14 <b_jonas> "Choose a nonland card from your hand. You may cast that card."
14:04:01 <b_jonas> Ah right, Ice Cauldron lets you cast any nonland card immediately. It's the most flexible solution I think.
14:06:04 <b_jonas> Ice cauldron doesn't let you cast the spell immediately.
14:06:15 <b_jonas> It only lets you cast from a different zone with normal timing.
14:10:20 <b_jonas> Is there ANY way to cast some enchantment of my choice, say Holy Strength, face up at instant speed, provided I own it?
14:12:01 <coppro> what are you asking me about?
14:12:13 <coppro> b_jonas: vedalken orrery?
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14:13:38 <b_jonas> I always forget about that one
14:14:34 <b_jonas> Teferi is a much more memorable character, even if I think the Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir card in TSP is a disappointing representation of him.
14:14:50 <b_jonas> He's represented much better on other cards, like Ovinize and Disruptive Student.
14:18:02 <b_jonas> ais523: efnet/Athildur claims (without rule proof) that if there's a Chromatic Lantern otb and I use two Chromatic Spheres while casting a spell, then after the spell is successfully cast, opponents get to look at both cards.
14:19:26 <b_jonas> ais523: they also claim that while casting an elephant, it's possible to draw a card with Chromatic Sphere and discard it with Skirge Familiar, and that it *should* presumably still be hidden with no characteristics in the gy during casting the spell, but the comp rules apparently doesn't say that.
14:19:31 <ais523> hmm, what if it was a single ability that said "draw two cards"
14:20:16 <ais523> also, Lantern of Insight is the card I said, not Chromatic Lantern :-)
14:21:07 <b_jonas> ah right, sorry. Not Chromatic Lantern, but either Lantern of Insight or Goblin Spy.
14:21:26 <b_jonas> (Goblin Spy controlled by me.)
14:22:05 <ais523> lantern of insight came to mind because it's actually part of a tier 2 modern deck
14:22:14 <ais523> cards that are played in major decks are easier for me to remember, probably for obvious reasons
14:22:57 <coppro> why would they be able to see the card
14:23:23 <ais523> under normal circumstances, lantern of insight means you see every card your opponents draw
14:23:26 <coppro> technically what happens is
14:23:30 <coppro> when you draw the first card
14:23:30 <ais523> so the question is, if they draw two at mana ability speed, what happens
14:23:31 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, there are like six cards that cause you to play with the top of your library revealed, but Lantern of Insight is the best because it doesn't have too many extra rules that complicate the matter, and it's a not too old not too expensive card (5DN uc).
14:23:38 <coppro> it goes to hand face down and the top card is revealed
14:23:43 <ais523> b_jonas: and the mill is very relevant
14:23:48 <coppro> and then the second one goes to hand and the next is revealed
14:23:55 <ais523> coppro: right, that's what I thought would happen
14:24:00 <coppro> since there's no rule preserving the face-down library card when you draw during casting
14:24:02 <ais523> so the card's face down but everyone knows what it actually is
14:24:20 <coppro> the crib rule for chromatic sphere is imperfect, which sucks
14:24:33 <b_jonas> coppro: but the top card isn't revealed during a transaction (during while a spell or ability is being played) because of 401.6
14:25:09 <coppro> huh, I never knew about that
14:25:23 <coppro> I would rule the cards are revealed
14:25:25 <b_jonas> The cards 401.{5,6} refer to aren't actually face down, are they? They're just hidden and have no characteristics.
14:25:44 <coppro> those rules are cribs to deal with an utterly dysfunctional card
14:25:47 <b_jonas> "face down" has a rules meaning.
14:26:03 <coppro> the point is "you don't get hidden information from chromatic sphere during casting/activation"
14:26:44 <b_jonas> but it's more than one card. Chromatic Sphere isn't the only one, is it? and Chromatic Sphere isn't such a bad card actually, I like its design, it's just mistamplated, it should cause you to draw the card later as a trigger or something.
14:26:47 <coppro> http://canada.pch.gc.ca/eng/1445028439342
14:26:53 <coppro> b_jonas: it is the only one
14:26:56 <coppro> Chromatic Star is the fix
14:26:59 <ais523> b_jonas: see Chromatic Star
14:27:08 <b_jonas> Besides Lich's Mirror and Chromatic Sphere, what cards can cause you to draw a card?
14:27:09 <ais523> which is almost exactly Chromatic Sphere but with timing fixes to not be stupid
14:27:14 <b_jonas> yes, Chromatic Star is a fix.
14:27:27 <ais523> I have been mentioning her repeatedly all conversation :-)
14:27:29 <b_jonas> well, Chromatic Star is actually also better
14:27:32 <zzo38> Right now I will sleep but I will later explain how my replacement for rule 717 will fix all of these things, without affecting what the cards do.
14:27:50 <b_jonas> because you still draw a card if it dies in some other way
14:27:58 <coppro> b_jonas: it's not possible to lose while casting a spell, though
14:28:11 <ais523> coppro: <ais523> here: I cast an expensive spell, filter a mana with chromatic sphere, the draw gets replaced by forbidden crypt and causes me to lose (empty graveyard), which gets replaced by lich's mirror, then I discard the resulting 7 cards to a skirge familiar that came back from under a banishing light (or that an opponent owns but I control), then I try to pay the remaining mana with an exotic orchard that came back from under a different
14:28:13 <ais523> banishing light, but in response the only opponent with color-producing lands concedes and now I'm one mana short
14:28:25 <ais523> coppro: it is, forbidden crypt triggering on chromatic sphere, we worked this out earlier
14:28:33 <coppro> oh, not counting the sphere I mean
14:28:58 <coppro> because, as discussed, that card is broken
14:29:05 <ais523> selvala irritates me, I could tell it was a nightmare the instant it was printed
14:29:08 <ais523> (also it's pretty recent)
14:29:34 <ais523> like, just put a "play this ability only any time you could play an instant" on her, it won't hurt any of its intended uses and makes the corner cases much less cornery
14:29:44 <coppro> they don't want to actually put that on text though
14:29:50 <b_jonas> ah, Odyssey has a cycle of artifacts like Skycloud Egg which also draw a card in a mana ability
14:29:59 <ais523> but the self-quote above is a similarly screwy situation that b_jonas and I came up with earlier
14:30:12 <ais523> which AFAICT causes you to have to undo a shuffle of your library, and there's no sequencing/shortcutting tricks to get around it
14:30:43 <ais523> b_jonas: the modern deck that was based around chromatic sphere/star and mass artifact reanimation was called "eggs"
14:30:57 <b_jonas> ais523: there totally is. you just delay the physical shuffle for later as a shortcut.
14:30:58 <ais523> eventually some of its major pieces got banned because the deck was slowing down tournaments
14:31:12 <ais523> b_jonas: but you have to draw seven cards off lich's mirror then discard them
14:33:13 <b_jonas> coppro: there are actually at least two ways to lose without conceding while casting a spell: Chromatic Sphere + Forbidden Crypt, or Skyshroud Forest + Nefarious Lich.
14:33:26 <b_jonas> so it's two cards you should curse. but the lich is probably already quite cursed, being a lich.
14:34:05 <ais523> b_jonas: is mill delayed until state-based actions? or is that instant too?
14:34:11 <ais523> I think it's delayed but am not sure
14:34:22 <ais523> b_jonas: trying to draw from an empty library
14:34:26 <ais523> (colloquially, loss by milling)
14:34:29 <b_jonas> losing from drawing? that's delayed to sba too
14:34:56 <ais523> what about winning from drawing with labotory maniac?
14:34:58 <b_jonas> and loss from poison counters is delayed too
14:35:09 <ais523> I can't remember how it's worded (nor how it's spelled, that was my fourth attempt and it still looks wrong)
14:35:28 <b_jonas> "If you would draw a card while your library has no cards in it, you win the game instead."
14:35:29 <ais523> aha, "laboratory", that has rather more letters than I thought
14:35:31 <ais523> no wonder I couldn't spell it
14:35:44 <ais523> that should be instant then
14:36:29 <b_jonas> And Laboratory Maniac might even be one that isn't already cursed by flavor, unlike the crypt and the lich.
14:39:49 <b_jonas> (But it's probably a mad scientist.)
14:42:20 <b_jonas> As for rules, can I have non-MTG rules nitpick questions too?
14:43:33 <b_jonas> In a C or C++ program, I call raise on a signal that isn't handled or ignored (as if SIG_DFL or as the process starts), isn't blocked, and causes the process to die (with or without coredump) or stop. Is it guaranteed that the function won't return (and the thread continue execution) before the program dies or stops? There might be other signals delivered at the same time, and the program may be multithreaded.
14:46:46 <int-e> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/raise.html
14:47:07 <int-e> "If a signal handler is called, the raise() function shall not return until after the signal handler does."
14:47:12 <b_jonas> int-e: I looked at POSIX, it says that if the signal is _handled_, the handler will be executed before the function returns.
14:47:20 <b_jonas> But there's no handler installed in this case.
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14:49:58 <b_jonas> But there might be some text about signals in general that specify this.
14:50:05 <b_jonas> eg. in http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/signal.h.html
14:50:19 <b_jonas> or even in the C11 standard or something
14:50:33 <fizzie> For POSIX, you'll be wanting to look through 2.4 Signal Concepts in the General Information section of System Interfaces.
14:50:42 <fizzie> Though I didn't see anything obviously relevant there.
14:50:43 <b_jonas> (part of the behavior of signals is specified in C, part in POSIX, and part is OS-dependent)
14:51:27 <b_jonas> fizzie: 2.4 where? do you have a link?
14:51:42 <fizzie> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/V2_chap02.html#tag_15_04
14:52:34 <fizzie> (The "System Interfaces" volume is divided to "General Information" and "System Interfaces" sections, the latter of which is the function reference.)
14:54:21 <fizzie> It's slightly suspicious that the description for raise explicitly mentions only "if a signal handler is called", and not something more generally about the "action", but I haven't seen anything explicit about it yet.
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14:56:01 <fizzie> Although that part seems to be copied over from the C standard.
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14:57:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: doesn't the C standard also have SIG_DFL and SIGABRT which is fatal normally? even if it doesn't have signals that stop (suspend) the process.
14:57:47 <fizzie> It has a SIG_DFL, but the default handling seems to be very implementation-defined.
14:58:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, but it doesn't _require_ that SIGABRT has a signal handler, so the question still arises what happens if you raise(SIGABRT) and your program doesn't handle it.
14:59:08 <fizzie> Yes, I don't see any explicit requirement for that to terminate the process.
14:59:23 <b_jonas> that is, per C standard, the libc _could_ handle that signal and exit the process in some impl-defined way other than by signals, but it needn't do that.
15:00:18 <fizzie> A call to abort() does need to "[return an] implementation-defined form of the status /unsuccessful termination/ [] to the host environment by means of the function call raise(SIGABRT)", though.
15:00:21 <b_jonas> in any case, http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/toc.htm does say that the default action for SIGABRT terminates the process ("with additional actions", that is, a core dump) if you SIG_DFL it
15:00:49 <fizzie> Yes, POSIX is more explicit. But it doesn't seem they fully define whether raise may return before that.
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15:03:00 <fizzie> I was hoping for the default actions to be specified with something like "as if a signal handler that did X was installed", but that doesn't seem to be the case.
15:03:30 <fizzie> (Because in that case you could have relied on the bit in the description of raise.)
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15:05:02 <b_jonas> It seems that the POSIX description of sigsuspend is more explicit: at http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/sigsuspend.html it seems to say that it won't return if the signal it lets through terminates the process,
15:09:10 <b_jonas> I don't want to do complicated things with signals, but I would like to trust raise to not return in those sane circumstances.
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15:30:08 <b_jonas> In M:tG, what is the cycle of not very rare artifacts in some pre-modern set that produce or color three colors of mana?
15:30:21 <b_jonas> And have illustrations of some sort of flat disk with some design on them.
15:30:43 <ais523> b_jonas: three-color artifacts are IIRC borderposts
15:30:44 <b_jonas> I don't know what exact set they are, or what mechanic they do exactly.
15:31:08 <b_jonas> ais523: the obelisks are in Alara. these are older
15:31:12 <ais523> but it's got to be either alara block or khans block
15:31:38 <ais523> there's a cycle of lands in homelands that produce three colours
15:31:41 <ais523> they are almost incomprehensibly bad
15:32:58 <b_jonas> I think I might be misremembering something.
15:33:56 <ais523> b_jonas: Rith's Attendant?
15:34:30 <b_jonas> ais523: no, the illustration at least definitely shows some inanimate abstract thingies
15:34:56 <b_jonas> the illustration is what I remember the most, the mechanics are probably wrong
15:35:10 <ais523> it's the only pre-modern artifact with {R},{G},{W} in its rules text but not {U} or {B}
15:35:44 <b_jonas> hmm... maybe they produce only two colors of mana, or don't produce mana, or something
15:40:47 <b_jonas> ah, I found it! and my description was wrong in multiple places
15:41:46 <b_jonas> or at least I might have found it. the Talisman of Progress cycle in Mirrodin. modern, and produces two colors.
15:41:55 <b_jonas> I might be conflating different cards.
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15:42:29 <b_jonas> These are definitely disk-shaped artifacts at least.
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15:47:29 <b_jonas> Not surprisingly, the Invasion block has lots of different colored mana producers.
15:48:34 <b_jonas> Wow, there's Multani's Harmony, which is like Paradise Mantle but an aura for {G}
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16:12:24 <Taneb> Helping someone learn formal languages and automata
16:15:01 <Taneb> I need to figure out how to explain the pumping lemma for regular languages
16:15:10 <vanila> ill show you how to explain pumping lemma
16:15:15 <vanila> just giv eme a sec to draw it
16:15:53 <Taneb> I've given him some problems to work on converting between regular languages and FSAs
16:16:11 <Taneb> So you've got some time
16:17:17 <vanila> http://i.imgur.com/sddYwEt.png
16:17:51 <haavard> zzo38: I think I solved your first puzzle, but I feel like it's wrong
16:19:02 <Taneb> His exam is in less than two hours
16:19:16 <b_jonas> um, an online book or something_
16:19:23 <b_jonas> I don't know what good books are there for this
16:19:24 <Taneb> Actually, I have a book
16:20:27 <b_jonas> Does he already know that regular languages can be defined with *nondeterministic* finite automata without null moves?
16:20:37 <b_jonas> as opposed to just deterministic ones?
16:20:46 <b_jonas> or maybe it's the opposite way?
16:20:51 <b_jonas> I don't know how this works
16:21:05 <Taneb> I don't know how hard the questions I've given him are
16:21:40 <vanila> I put too many dots :|
16:21:53 <vanila> well it doesn't matter
16:23:29 <vanila> it would be kind to teach derivatives
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16:55:19 <HackEgo> 2016-01-06 16:54:58.117220000+00:00
16:55:23 <HackEgo> grue/grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean
16:55:59 <b_jonas> `learn bleen is the color of the ocean and the trees
16:56:04 <HackEgo> Learned 'bleen': bleen is the color of the ocean and the trees
17:04:03 <int-e> hmm, bleen... vexxar?
17:06:55 <quintopia> Taneb: this is less useful for trivia, as it is much more widely known.
17:07:05 <quintopia> (referring to the universal number)
17:08:40 <Taneb> This syllabus calls what I call "regular languages" "rational"
17:08:42 <int-e> . o O ( Grey is a common misspelling of gray. / Gray is a common misspelling of grey. )
17:09:11 <Taneb> Put a Taneb invented it in Grey and a Taneb did not invent it in Gray
17:09:13 <int-e> I've seen that before (rational languages)
17:09:44 <int-e> But I don't know where that terminology comes from
17:10:33 <int-e> Hmm. "Taneb disinvented it."
17:11:16 <int-e> `learn Deniability was not invented by Taneb.
17:11:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'deniability': Deniability was not invented by Taneb.
17:12:55 <Taneb> I know roughly half of the exam this guy is sitting
17:14:26 <Taneb> What does it mean for a monoid to recognize a language
17:14:49 <vanila> maybe it acts on a set of states
17:15:47 <quintopia> is "Taneb invented it" now a synonym for "Taneb approves it"?
17:16:19 <Taneb> quintopia: I don't think so
17:16:39 <quintopia> Taneb: are there any numbers in reverse alphabetical order besides "one"
17:16:52 <Taneb> quintopia: I don't think so but couldn't say for sure
17:18:47 <vanila> it is recognized by some finite monoid, meaning it is the preimage of a subset of a finite monoid under a homomorphism from the free monoid on its alphabet[note 7]
17:19:03 <vanila> that's equiv to regular language? neat
17:19:23 <Taneb> Said friend seems to have disappeared while attempting to refill his water
17:19:24 <vanila> is anyone a wikipedia editorL
17:24:54 <MDude> I haven't edited WIkipedia in a few years.
17:25:57 <vanila> feel like making an edit ??
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17:31:59 <vanila> i dont have an account
17:33:23 <Phantom_Hoover> you don't need an account unless they've really clamped down on anonymous editing in the last few years
17:34:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tonoco]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46092&oldid=46077 * Keymaker * (+4) Fixed truth-machine spelling and linked it to its page.
17:51:01 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: actually there's a new level of protection that's lower than semiprotection that's used on articles that anonymous people keep screwing up
17:51:10 <ais523> so it's a bit less clamped down than it used to be
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17:51:28 <ais523> it delays showing the edits to other anons until someone with perms manually checks them
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18:03:15 <quintopia> ais523: can registered users see them?
18:04:00 <ais523> quintopia: yes, actually anyone can by clicking a link
18:04:10 <ais523> just it's default to show most recent for registered, and most recent approved for anons
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19:46:36 <Taneb> ais523 mentioned tiny leaders being solved earlier, anyone have a source
19:47:42 <Taneb> I just heard someone say "monoids are easy"
19:47:46 <Taneb> Outside the context of Haskell
19:48:52 <shachaf> They're not as easy as you might think.
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20:34:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Fizzie]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46093&oldid=40332 * Fizzie * (+0) Post-upgrade edit test for 1.26.2.
20:35:22 <fizzie> There was some transient weirdness about logging in and session storage, but it seems to have maybe cleared up on its own.
20:35:29 <fizzie> @tell ais523 Just as a heads-up, updated esolangs.org to MediaWiki 1.26.2, in case you want to have a look, see if I broke something.
20:35:32 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Just as a heads-up, updated esolangs.org to MediaWiki 1.26.2, in case you want to have a look, see if I broke something.
20:36:51 <fizzie> I seem to have broken at least the images for the bottom-right corner CC0 and MediaWiki links.
20:43:06 <fizzie> They seem to have gone to /w/resources which wasn't part of the nginx configuration.
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21:07:08 <b_jonas> “<Taneb> This syllabus calls what I call "regular languages" "rational"” -- that terminology actually makes sense, and I can explain why, although it's a bit bad since "rational" is a VERY overused word.
21:08:29 <vanila> also b_jonas how about adding to wikipedia?
21:08:35 <b_jonas> Some textbooks introduce regular languages in such a way that they consider the set of languages (over a fixed alphabet) a semiring with unit,
21:09:09 <vanila> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_language#Equivalent_formalisms -- they don't mention a language is regular iff it has finitely many derivatives. Someone please add this!
21:09:32 <b_jonas> where the addition is the union of two languages, and the multiplication is elementwise concatenation. (The zero is the empty language, the unit is the language containing only the empty string, often notated by epsilon.)
21:09:53 <vanila> omg that's beautiful!!
21:09:54 <b_jonas> It is not hard to verify that this satisfies the axioms of semirings.
21:10:06 <b_jonas> There is a use for this description,
21:10:16 <vanila> would chomsky context free languages be algebraic?
21:11:12 <b_jonas> namely it is used to prove in an understandible way the nontrivial theorem that every language defined by a nondetrministic finite automaton (with null states) can also be defined by a regular expression (an expression made of finite sets, monoid operations, and the star closure).
21:12:12 <b_jonas> You prove this in a constructive (but exponential time) way: from the finite automaton, you write a left regular BNF form, which formally looks like a set of "linear" equations in this monoid,
21:12:40 <b_jonas> where there is a variable for each state of the automaton, which has the value of the language accepted if starting from that state,
21:13:02 <b_jonas> and the equations are originally derived from the translation rules and final states.
21:13:45 <b_jonas> Then you transform these linear equations in a way somewhat similar to gaussian elimination.
21:14:35 <b_jonas> Namely, you keep the equations of a form where the left side is always a variable, and the right side is a regular expression with variables in them,
21:15:17 <b_jonas> then if an equation contains the lhs variable inside the rhs, then you transform this in a certain way which introduces the star closure,
21:15:40 <b_jonas> and if the equation does not contain the lhs variable inside the rhs, then you eliminate that equation and variable by substituting it everywhere else.
21:16:18 <b_jonas> I have heared this description, although not the terminology "rational language", but it makes total sense.
21:16:56 <b_jonas> However, I would not recomment "rational language" as a name, because "rational" is overloaded, and "regular language" or "Chomsky L0 language" are both well known terms that mean this.
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21:19:43 <b_jonas> Although this linear equation formalism isn't really necessary for the proof, it helps understanding. I don't know how well it's known.
21:19:52 <b_jonas> (And in case it's not clear, this is a commutative semiring.)
21:24:11 <b_jonas> Taneb: did you succeed explaining?
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21:32:27 <fizzie> Looked up "sgsdgdfsfsh.org" at a domain registration place (random mashing just to see their prices), and they intelligently suggested I might be interested in "sgsdecigramdfsfsh.com" instead.
21:37:14 <fizzie> Not really. I mean, decigrams.
21:37:17 <fizzie> Incidentally, I thought WHOIS privacy protection things were predominantly a standard service, but it seems they quite often now are priced separately instead.
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21:41:00 <b_jonas> wait, *decigram*? that's not even a real used unit of measurement, is it? that is, the rules that restrict the use of the centi, deci, deka, hecto forbid it, don't they?
21:41:21 <b_jonas> I don't know all of those rules by heart.
21:41:36 <b_jonas> s/deka/deca/ in English apparently
21:43:12 <b_jonas> Hmm, where do I find those rules?
21:47:14 <FireFly> I've never seen it used before I think, but I don't know if it's actually forbidden
21:48:27 <b_jonas> FireFly: forbidden by SI, as in, much of the metric units and prefixes were in use somewhat before SI, but SI restricts them a bit more, apart from restricting the use of non-metric units.
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22:30:36 <Taneb> `welcome onetwothree4life
22:31:05 <HackEgo> onetwothree4life: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:31:36 <lambdabot> uptime: 25m 8s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
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22:31:48 <b_jonas> Taneb: hi. did the cs teaching work?
22:32:01 <Taneb> b_jonas: to some extent
22:32:20 <Taneb> Someone else came along and explained the bits to him that I didn't know
22:32:29 <Taneb> And the exam is at 9 tomorrow, not 6 tonight
22:39:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, hmm i thought i was going to york in february but turns out it's leeds
22:39:23 <Taneb> Why are you venturing my way?
22:42:20 <fizzie> Is that at all like Blitzball?
22:42:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, saturday, probably leaving early sunday afternoon
22:43:00 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, no b/c giant floating balls of water don't exist irl
22:43:28 <fizzie> It could be a non-floating half-sphere, and be half like blitzball.
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22:46:23 <fizzie> Are you completely submerged, or only just partially?
22:46:53 <fizzie> The Final Fantasy wikia's blitzball page linked me to Underwater Rugby.
22:49:12 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: what's the context? are you a spectator, a player, or a referee/umpire?
22:49:57 <Phantom_Hoover> it's not a real sport so we don't have proper referees, just pedantic players with a special hat
22:50:02 <b_jonas> This is on which continent? I know there's at least one underwater hockey club in Hungary, but it's not a very popular sport.
22:50:15 <Phantom_Hoover> and you can't really see what's going on because of all the water so there are no spectators
22:50:41 <b_jonas> by "not a real sport", do you mean you play casually, not in a very competitive way, just like how many people play casual football without professional referees?
22:50:52 <b_jonas> rather than playing in tournaments that is.
22:50:55 <Taneb> I could quite easily come and watch if such a thing were possible
22:51:59 <b_jonas> "you can't really see what's going on because of all the water so there are no spectators" -- probably. but some people watch surprisingly weird sports that I would think aren't worth to watch, especially if they are friends or family with players.
22:52:52 <b_jonas> it's only natural that some parents are interested since adolescent children play the sport too
22:54:46 <zzo38> haavard: Are you on? Then you can reply to me about the puzzles?
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22:57:25 <Phantom_Hoover> b_jonas, ill have you know that were respectable adults thank you very much
22:57:51 <zzo38> Why have the skins other than Vector been deleted from esolang wiki?
22:58:30 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: but even if you're respectable adults, some of you might have sons practicing underwater hockey
22:58:51 <Phantom_Hoover> b_jonas, here now that's a very pessimistic view of our teen pregnancy rates
22:58:54 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: by the way, where does your nick come from? is there a public reason?
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23:03:37 <HackEgo> Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman, hatheist, and completely out of the loop.
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23:04:59 <boily> one day, I'll have a child. I hope he can swim better than me.
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23:07:06 <fizzie> @tell zzo38 It was a semi-unintentional side effect of updating to a new MediaWiki version -- it doesn't enable all installed skins by default (like the old version did), and I only just quick-fixed it by re-enabling the standard one. I will look into enabling the others -- I was wondering whether some of our users were actually using them.
23:09:25 <b_jonas> I guess the main reason why underwater hockey isn't very popular here as a casual sport is that it needs a suitable swimming pool and there's few of those.
23:10:03 <b_jonas> More so than water polo, which is popular, but might have more choice in swimming pools.
23:10:49 <b_jonas> Obviously the other part why it's not popular is that it's not suitable as a spectator sport and so few people know about it.
23:11:31 <Phantom_Hoover> it's not that expensive, at least in the club i play at
23:12:03 <fizzie> Seems that the user_properties table has 2 instances of 'cologneblue', 4 instances of 'modern', 4 instances of 'monobook', 1 instance of 'simple' and 11 instances of 'standard'. Only CologneBlue, Modern, MonoBook and Vector seem to be part of the installation now.
23:12:15 <Phantom_Hoover> i think it's mostly obscure because it was invented by a diving club in the 50s and has spread from there
23:12:34 <b_jonas> um, what does "general sports membership" mean, GBP 6 per what (month person, week person, occasion person), and traveling to the swimming pool is part of the cost.
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23:12:58 <Phantom_Hoover> £6 buys you club membership for a year, you can play with only that
23:13:34 <lambdabot> fizzie said 2h 38m 2s ago: Just as a heads-up, updated esolangs.org to MediaWiki 1.26.2, in case you want to have a look, see if I broke something.
23:13:45 <Phantom_Hoover> general sports membership means buying access to the university's sports clubs, which is an extortionate £90 or so but is also necessary to do the mainstream sports
23:14:32 <b_jonas> Even water polo isn't cheap, since it needs reserving some lanes in a swimming pool of length at least 25 m, and there aren't many such swimming pools available, since it's actually very expensive to maintain one.
23:15:19 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: I see. Is there an additional requirement of some relation with the university to that? And what else does that membership buy you? And is it GBP 90 per person year?
23:16:06 <b_jonas> (quickly checking, 1 GBP = 430 HUF approx currently)
23:17:03 <Phantom_Hoover> it's £96/year basically but if you want to do water polo or football or any other sport that £90 is already necessary
23:17:10 <fizzie> @tell zzo38 I have re-enabled the three other ones that were still bundled as part of the 1.26 installation (Cologne Blue, Modern, MonoBook). I believe the other two skins that people had historically used (standard, simple) had already been removed in 1.22, the previous version.
23:17:35 <b_jonas> That would result in 8 GBP per month person in average, which seems cheap for a swimming pool access if you go regularly throughout the whole year.
23:18:15 <b_jonas> I pay more than that for swimming, and most of that cost is actually for the swimming pool access.
23:19:09 <b_jonas> What are the requirements for the swimming pool for underwater hockey? Can you practice in a pool with a slanted floor? Floor slanted in half of the pool? Size and depth limits?
23:19:29 <b_jonas> For regular casual practice that is, not for a match.
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23:23:12 <oerjan> fizzie: the Recent Changes preferences changed a bit, and when i fixed that the Save button strangely took me from https to http, telling me i had to log in (i was already logged in on https).
23:23:19 <Phantom_Hoover> b_jonas, yeah, you just work around slopes in the pool
23:24:07 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: do you need an entire swimming pool, or are two or three lanes in a sloped pool enough?
23:24:08 <fizzie> oerjan: I had some logged-in/not-logged-in weirdness initially too. Don't think I remembered to check whether that was due to http/https differences.
23:24:25 <oerjan> somehow jumping back and forth in history then got me logged in on http too
23:24:36 <oerjan> without afair giving the password.
23:24:46 <fizzie> I'm wondering if it's something to do with the memcache stuff.
23:24:56 <Phantom_Hoover> b_jonas, depends, lanes are normally too narrow though
23:25:40 <fizzie> Hmm. We've got wgServer set to "http://esolangs.org" -- I think that should be just "//esolangs.org", really.
23:25:42 <oerjan> fizzie: i fact since i became admin i've been making a point of _not_ being logged in on just http, so i don't really want this...
23:25:48 <fizzie> At least as far as I can tell from https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgServer
23:26:09 <b_jonas> Sure, but it's hard to reserve part of a public swimming pool widthwise, whereas it's easy to reserve two or three lanes. Water polo practices are often done in lanes here.
23:26:22 <b_jonas> Especially so in big swimming pools.
23:27:06 <fizzie> oerjan: I tried setting it to the protocol-agnostic thing. Hopefully that should mean links should stay in the scheme you were on.
23:27:56 <fizzie> (Also set $wgCanonicalServer to https:// -- the documentation says it'll use that for links in things like emails.)
23:29:39 <fizzie> I think that'll have a side effect of switching to https:// links in the on-channel edit notifications.
23:31:53 <oerjan> good, as i've been editing that manually
23:32:35 <fizzie> No wonder this felt familiar: I had in fact done exactly the same change before.
23:32:48 <fizzie> (Except with $wgCanonicalServer set to http:// instead.)
23:33:09 <fizzie> Turns out I fixed it on the server, but not in the canonical copy of the configuration where I take it from when updating.
23:34:57 <fizzie> I also seem to have managed to rollback the captcha questions (from the single 0x29A to the old, larger set) due to the same sort of thing.
23:35:16 <fizzie> Wonder if I should redo that change as well, it must've been changed for a reason.
23:36:08 <oerjan> fizzie: also most links did seem to already stay in the same scheme, it was just the Save button that behaved weirdly.
23:37:30 <Phantom_Hoover> b_jonas, the clubs i've been at have just booked the entire pool very late in the evenin
23:38:08 <oerjan> fizzie: afair we changed the captcha to just one because it was easier to change when the spambots managed to get one, and seemed just as effective...
23:38:29 <fizzie> Well, I restored it back to the 0x29A it most recently had been.
23:38:51 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: yes, that works for smaller or worse pools
23:38:58 <oerjan> i did see a spammer recently. haven't checked the actual abuse log.
23:39:01 <fizzie> And yes; most in-page links probably would have worked if they are just normal relative ones, I assume it just needs a fully qualified URL for some more special things.
23:39:11 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: what size of pools? 20, 30, 33, 50 meter?
23:39:31 <b_jonas> (25 meter is actually the most common length)
23:40:13 <b_jonas> Indoor or outdoor? Can you even do underwater hockey in an outdoor pool?
23:40:19 <Phantom_Hoover> that's split into 2 though, so ~25m would be a typical length
23:40:35 <b_jonas> Does underwater hockey need good lighting (lamps) for the pool?
23:40:36 <oerjan> doesn't look like any spambots triggered the filters recently.
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23:40:57 <Phantom_Hoover> if the bottom's flat and you can see then outdoors would be fine, i'm sure
23:41:33 <oerjan> the last three users to get hits were regulars
23:41:55 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: right, warm water in pools is somewhat of a special advantage here
23:42:24 <b_jonas> as in, there are lots of natural warm water springs, and as a result, many swimming pools have warm water, whereas I hear this isn't true in most other locations
23:47:12 <oerjan> that recent spammer would not have been got by any filter, anyway, it was a single edit that looked plausible except that the link domain was _slightly_ fishy so i visited it.
23:47:42 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=CAT&diff=prev&oldid=46055
23:48:19 <b_jonas> I understand that in a lot of other countries, many children swim in warm neoprene suits, whereas that's rare here.
23:48:50 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah you'd generally wear a wetsuit to swim outdoors here
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00:06:02 <hppavilion[1]> I don't think anyone's made an OO logic language before
00:09:43 <tswett> What do you mean by OO?
00:10:23 <oerjan> the logic part is usually immutable, isn't it
00:11:01 <oerjan> hm some say Erlang is an OO language in the original sense
00:11:28 <tswett> There's an original sense?
00:11:37 <oerjan> Alan Kay's sense, iirc
00:31:12 <oerjan> @tell izabera <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befana YOU PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THIS?!? <-- NOPE HTH
00:34:45 <oerjan> i wouldn't expect you to
00:34:46 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, I don't think we even celebrate Epiphany in the US
00:35:31 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well, unless maybe you were of italian descent
00:36:22 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Where can I find info on OO in the Alan Kay sense?
00:36:47 <oerjan> i don't think epiphany is celebrated, although it's traditionally the last day of christmas in parts of norway (some include one more week)
00:36:50 <hppavilion[1]> Unless it's the typical description of OO, but modern languages /don't/ OO properly
00:37:21 <hppavilion[1]> Like, they don't implement what Wikipedia talks about
00:38:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well "Actually I made up the term "object-oriented", and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind."
00:38:44 <oerjan> although he probably had something smalltalkish
00:39:34 <hppavilion[1]> (People whose names start with "o" are nearly indistinguishable in my memory)
00:40:27 <oerjan> hate? not really. i'm almost haskell-monoglottish these days, though. when i even program.
00:40:51 <oerjan> \oren\ perhaps. he's rather opinionated on some things.
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00:52:46 <oerjan> oh right, istr back when i was a kid january 6 was about the time we removed the christmas decorations.
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00:56:14 <\oren\> I don't like most OO, but only because of the syntax being needlessly complicated
00:57:00 <\oren\> the actual concepts of ADT's and polymorphism, etc are mostly fine
00:57:13 <vanila> ADT's and polymorphism isn't OO
00:57:31 <vanila> thats functional programming
00:57:35 <vanila> OO is about message passing and/or classes and instances
00:57:52 <\oren\> classes and instances = ADT's?
00:58:27 <\oren\> well i mean an ADT is like an interface, and then an implemention is a class
00:59:19 <vanila> thats a completely different thing that i ever thought of
01:01:13 <\oren\> anyway basically a lot of the useful parts of OO are functional programming with a stupid syntax
01:10:07 <oerjan> ADT has two different meanings hth
01:10:48 <oerjan> dependent on whether A is Abstract or Algebraic
01:11:04 <vanila> in an OO context you would say encapsulation
01:36:50 <zgrep> oerjan: What if it's just Average?
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02:40:11 <oerjan> oh wait that's correct
02:40:49 <vanila> amazitng that it has all the 4s
02:41:58 <Elronnd> does lambdabot support nested powers or whatever they're called?
02:42:24 <lambdabot> (Fractional a, Integral b) => a -> b -> a
02:42:45 <lambdabot> (Integral b, Num a) => a -> b -> a
02:43:19 <oerjan> > foldr1 (^) $ replicate 3 2
02:43:28 <vanila> tghere doesn't seem to be any other numbers
02:44:19 <oerjan> > (((foldr1 (^).).replicate) 3 2
02:44:20 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
02:44:29 <oerjan> > ((foldr1 (^).).replicate) 3 2
02:47:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cardinal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46094&oldid=45357 * Albedo * (+310) /* External resources */ external source added
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02:52:45 <oerjan> `learn Gray is e common misspalling of grey.
02:52:49 <HackEgo> Learned 'gray': Gray is e common misspalling of grey.
02:54:06 <oerjan> just chennaling en eltarnetiva univarsa hara
02:55:00 <singingboyo> oerjan: well those were an odd couple of messages to join to
02:55:16 <HackEgo> Gray is e common misspalling of grey.
02:56:40 <oerjan> also i was inspired by some logreading
02:57:33 <Elronnd> earjen: good work fixing thet dafinition
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05:17:30 <myname> i am confused by the first dot
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08:42:35 <mroman> What happens if you reverse the order of returns?
08:47:23 <mroman> also... where would return values go...
08:47:59 <mroman> http://codepad.org/EZD8StCf
08:48:13 <mroman> basically ret would pop elements from the call stack in reverse order
09:03:07 <haavard> What would happen is your brain would start hurting
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09:23:53 <mroman> also if any new languages come out that have nullable types as the default I will only look at them and go "whyyyy :("
09:25:52 <mroman> because they should be non-nullable
09:26:25 <b_jonas> I don't have a problem with nullable types as defaults in C++, but that's because the nullable types are the _pointers_ (pointers to objects, to void to functions, to member objects, to member functions), which are supposed to be low level types,
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09:26:48 <b_jonas> but you can build high-level types that aren't nullable, and the standard library generally has such types.
09:27:24 <mroman> The thing is that most methods for example in Java will assume that references are valid (non-null)
09:27:44 <mroman> luckily if they are null it will raise a NullPointer-Exception
09:27:51 <mroman> which you can catch somewhere
09:27:59 <b_jonas> On the other hand, there's some reasons why certain types have to be nullable in C++ even if they're semantically non-nullable, and this is because it's easier to handle types that can be moved, and even easier if they can be default-constructed, which often requires nullability.
09:28:18 <b_jonas> Which is why eg. unique_ptr is nullable and should be.
09:28:21 <mroman> but usually you catch those only in outter-outter-outter function because you never expect a NullPointer-Exception to be thrown
09:28:58 <b_jonas> (And by can be moved, I mean that they can have noexpect move constructed technically.)
09:29:12 <b_jonas> mroman: sorry, I don't do java.
09:29:17 <mroman> so ideally you'd have to annotate references that they may be null
09:29:34 <mroman> such as String (never null), String? (maybe null)
09:30:05 <mroman> and passing a T? to a T would be deemed illegale without having it checked first
09:30:50 <b_jonas> Now for a language that's almost fully dynamically allocated, like java or haskell or ruby or python, the objections I mentioned don't stand, although there are some other reasons why you want nullable by default types in some of those languages.
09:31:59 <mroman> There are cases where you'd want null (such as for example in certain data structures) but those would be T? then
09:32:02 <fizzie> That's what @Nullable is for in Java.
09:32:25 <mroman> for example map.get would be T? because it returns null if the element does not exist
09:32:36 <fizzie> It's not an uncommon convention to say that all non-annotated references are always non-null, and require @Nullable otherwise.
09:33:00 <fizzie> It's a bit more verbose than the C# ?, but still.
09:34:12 <mroman> It's a convention, yes.
09:34:23 <mroman> but it's not reflected within the language itself
09:34:31 <fizzie> Well, there are also good tools that make it an error to pass @Nullable Foo to a function taking a Foo.
09:34:34 <mroman> because the language's convention is, that they are all nullable
09:34:43 <fizzie> Of course you need an annotations for all libraries you use, including the standard one, which can be a pain.
09:35:10 <mroman> That's why it's so important to design a language nicely from the start
09:35:26 <mroman> if you fix things later you'll have trouble that you have lots and lots of old code around
09:35:33 <mroman> that don't follow new "things"
09:36:20 <mroman> and then you need external tools that check annotations/javadoc in the hope that all code you use use them properly too
09:36:56 <mroman> I guess findbugs might have some @Nullable heuristics
09:37:33 <fizzie> It does, and the Checker Framework is popular too.
09:37:39 <b_jonas> mroman: In haskell, as far as I know, almost nothing is implicitly nullable.
09:39:00 <mroman> Haskell is quite nice :)
09:39:15 <b_jonas> mroman: in ruby and python, the problem is that, unlike in smalltalk, classes don't have their set of instance variables fixed statically in advanced, but each instance can add instance variables dynamically. due to this, you can't require that all instances variables of an object of a user-defined class are initialized when the obj is constructed,
09:39:15 <mroman> except for things like fromJust
09:39:20 <mroman> and non-total list functions
09:40:01 <fizzie> I mean, I admit it's very much less clean than it would be if it were part of the core language, but it's still quite possible to have strict nullness checks in Java.
09:40:15 <b_jonas> so there have to exist non-existant instance variables, and either those are just implicitly read as a null value, which means the instance variable is of a nullable type, or cause an error when read, which sort of means the class is of a nullable type.
09:40:18 <mroman> b_jonas: Yes, this wouldn't work in dynamic languages
09:40:25 <mroman> you'd need static type checking
09:40:49 <mroman> the whole point is to avoid run-time nullpointer errors
09:41:30 <mroman> but that's because i've worked with librarys with poor exception handling
09:42:04 <mroman> that throw nullpointer exceptions for all kinds of errors
09:42:34 <mroman> which are annoying to debug because then I need to go through the source code of that library
09:42:47 <mroman> and trace where those values come from to see why something is null
09:43:10 <b_jonas> But is this a problem with the java language, or just some badly written libraries?
09:43:28 <mroman> and you can't do proper error reporting in your application because you can't really tell much if it the library just reports nullpointer exception
09:43:59 <mroman> that's why you display "An error happened" to the user-gui :)
09:44:05 <mroman> instead of a meaningful message
09:44:25 <fizzie> Oh? In my experience, you generally display a 200-line stack trace instead.
09:44:27 <mroman> b_jonas: It's 90% badly written library
09:44:40 <b_jonas> By the way, SQL also has types that are nullable by default, but can be declared as non-nullable, and I don't know the reason for that.
09:44:59 <fizzie> Okay, maybe you print the 200-line stack trace in the console and display "an error happened" in the GUI.
09:45:29 <mroman> fizzie: Well you obviously log the stack trace but you won't be displaying the stack trace to an end-user
09:45:38 <b_jonas> In SQL, is it a good practice to declare most table columns as NON NULL explicitly if they shall not contain nulls?
09:45:47 <fizzie> I've seen quite a lot of stack traces as an end user of Java programs.
09:46:22 <fizzie> b_jonas: I've been doing that, but I don't know if it's standard practice or not.
09:46:28 <mroman> some display the stacktrace to the user
09:46:42 <mroman> but in my case it wouldn't tell the user what he did wrong.
09:47:10 <fizzie> Sometimes it's a stack trace after Proguarding, which is extra helpful.
09:47:17 <b_jonas> fizzie: I'm not asking if it's standard practice or not. I'm asking if it's good practice or not. There's lots of bad SQL out there so the two needn't be the same.
09:47:28 <mroman> the only thing I can do is to check for the exact location of the null-pointer exception within the library
09:48:01 <mroman> if(lineNo == 12) { /* this is wrong */ } else if (lineNo == 99) { /* that other thing is wrong */ } ...
09:48:17 <fizzie> Sounds very maintainable.
09:48:21 <mroman> but I'm not going to do that because we have no more funding :D
09:48:45 <mroman> fizzie: The library has internal state
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09:50:53 <mroman> which is also a problem if you restart tomcat
09:51:12 <mroman> even though the library saves certain things to files
09:51:21 <mroman> it doesn't properly reload all of them
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09:56:04 <mroman> http://pastebin.com/T3uZLCtm <- that's the storage
09:56:57 <mroman> well that's the "database" of the library to be precis
09:57:21 <mroman> and deletion is done by creating a tempfile, copying every entry in the file to it, skipping the one to delet, delete the file, rename the tempfile
09:57:50 <mroman> and yes, that code is property of IBM :D
09:58:33 <mroman> oh, I meant copy from tempfile back to original file
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09:58:48 <b_jonas> In ascii text, if I want to give a list of timestamps, each timestamp in an RFC 3339 / ISO 8601 format, then can I separate the timestamps with commas? Or are commas commonly used for something else in the context of ISO 8601 style timestamps?
09:59:14 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: comma may optionally replace period.
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09:59:52 <b_jonas> hmm, that could be a problem
10:00:30 <b_jonas> (although I personally dislike commas used as a decimal point OR thousands separator)
10:00:40 <b_jonas> I might need to find a different separator then
10:00:58 <mroman> property, but not written I assume.
10:01:23 <mroman> It's an open source privacy/crypto engine/library
10:01:50 <b_jonas> indeed, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Times says commas are used as a decimal point in such timestamps
10:02:56 <mroman> >> Represent it as "14:30,5", "1430,5", "14:30.5", or "1430.5". <<
10:03:11 <mroman> parsing date times must be tedious
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10:03:20 <mroman> and formats allow multiple variations?
10:03:30 <fizzie> Huh, I didn't know ISO 8601 was that flexible.
10:03:43 <b_jonas> Commas in numbers are a stupid historical practice from back when people frequently used a period as either a thousands group separator or a multiplication sign, and should be gone.
10:03:56 <fizzie> We've got commas in numbers back in Finland.
10:04:10 <fizzie> And the period as the thousands separator.
10:04:43 <mroman> but I hate that we use commas for that
10:04:48 <lifthrasiir> did you know that in RFC 3339 +0000 and -0000 has different meanings?
10:04:52 <b_jonas> People should use symbols for thousands separators other than commas or periods, such as a thin space, underscore, apostrophe, double colon, space; and even if you insist on using the dot for a multiplication sign, you should use an upper dot rather than a comma for decimal separator.
10:05:19 <lifthrasiir> mroman: non-breaking space (or non-breaking thin space) FTW
10:05:19 <mroman> lifthrasiir: is that "duration"?
10:06:04 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, _traditionally_ Hungary has commas only for decimal points, just like how _traditionally_ it uses roman numerals to denote months, and multiple crazy formats to denote timestamps made of hours and minutes.
10:06:04 <lifthrasiir> anyway, only +0000 refers to UTC; -0000 signals the lack of timezone information (????)
10:06:12 <mroman> "Unknown local offset convention
10:06:19 <mroman> I'd attend that convention.
10:06:21 <b_jonas> But these are traditions that many people don't follow anymore, and I wish even fewer people would follow.
10:07:19 <b_jonas> One big problem with the decimal point is that it's specified as the comma in lots of software, including most Hungarian locales, and those are generally VERY hard to change, eg. they require recompiling libc or worse.
10:07:21 <fizzie> Sorry, I misspoke: we use space for the separator.
10:07:34 <fizzie> I don't think people actually use it that much, but that's the standard.
10:07:38 <fizzie> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "fi_FI"); printf("%'.2f", 1234.56); }
10:07:45 <mroman> what's even worse is that scanf looks at the locale
10:08:23 <b_jonas> However, those Hungarian locales suck in other ways, eg. the one in Gnu libc has a blatant error in it where the month abbreviation for September is wrong, and message translations to Hungarian suck in lots of software.
10:08:44 <mroman> my brother used a chemical software that parsed some data format with scanf
10:09:01 <mroman> but since he had a de_ locale set, the software couldn't parse it
10:10:13 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "fi_FI"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:10:29 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "de_DE"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:10:41 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "de_CH"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:10:41 <fizzie> I remember seeing "Jan 1" formatted by some program that attempted localization as "1. Januaryta" -- en:January is fi:tammikuu, and for the date the month needs to be in the partitive case, so "tammikuuta", and apparently the program somehow managed to add the Finnish suffix to the English month name.
10:12:05 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "de_AU"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:12:41 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "de_AT"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:13:17 <fizzie> So you've got periods for de_DE, 's for de_CH and no separator at all for de_AT? Good.
10:13:18 <mroman> so germany has dots and comma, switzerland has apostrophes and dot and austria has nothing and comma
10:13:32 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't notice one of them had period for the decimals too.
10:14:06 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "it_IT"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:14:16 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "it_CH"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:14:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, that kind of mixed language thing happens when a program has messages for a certain language but uses system locale for other languages. The most common such symptom ime is message boxes with an English message and Hungarian labels on the yes/no/cancel buttons.
10:15:05 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "fr_FR"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:15:23 <mroman> so the frenchs are more loke the fins
10:15:29 <b_jonas> I have seen dates in a language mixed with text in a different language, but not a case where the program tried to attach an affix to it.
10:16:00 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "jp_JP"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:16:41 <b_jonas> mroman: not from a plain printf.
10:16:48 <b_jonas> (that would be a bad idea anyway)
10:17:27 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "ja_JP.UTF-8"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:18:40 <HackEgo> locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory \ locale: Cannot set LC_MESSAGES to default locale: No such file or directory \ locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory \ LANG=ja_JP \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="ja_JP" \ LC_NUMERIC="ja_JP" \ LC_TIME="ja_JP" \ LC_COLLATE="ja_JP" \ LC_MONETARY="ja_JP"
10:19:10 <fizzie> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_SE"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_FI"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:19:12 <HackEgo> 12 340 000,56 | 12340000,56
10:19:18 <fizzie> At least there's no difference there.
10:20:04 <mroman> ``` locale -a | grep FI
10:20:04 <b_jonas> fizzie: try a norvegian locale, maybe it writes zeros with more or fewer diagonal slashes
10:20:05 <HackEgo> fi_FI \ fi_FI.utf8 \ fi_FI@euro \ sv_FI \ sv_FI.utf8 \ sv_FI@euro
10:20:27 <mroman> is that "with euro sign"?
10:21:30 <fizzie> I think they might well be identical now.
10:21:32 <mroman> ``` locale -a | grep ^ch
10:21:36 <fizzie> They probably were different at some point.
10:21:39 <mroman> ``` locale -a | grep CH
10:21:40 <HackEgo> de_CH \ de_CH.utf8 \ fr_CH \ fr_CH.utf8 \ it_CH \ it_CH.utf8
10:22:38 <mroman> there's probably no standard for selecting dialects
10:23:46 <mroman> üch geits abr no güät.
10:24:04 <fizzie> sv_SE and sv_FI have different currency rules, but I wonder if there are any programs anywhere with different messages for them.
10:24:19 <mroman> does C even have currency stuff?
10:25:34 <mroman> that's not in the libc though
10:27:18 <mroman> Is there a printf char for currencies?
10:27:30 <fizzie> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_SE"); struct lconv *se = localeconv(); printf("%s ", se->currency_symbol); setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_FI"); struct lconv *fi = localeconv(); printf("%s", fi->currency_symbol); }
10:28:01 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "de_CH"); printf("%.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:28:11 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "de_CH"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:28:24 <mroman> I deduced that ' meant "use delimiters for thousands"
10:28:42 <fizzie> The ' *isn't* part of the standard, of course.
10:30:03 <fizzie> And ' is "use grouping if locale needs it".
10:30:28 <fizzie> I don't think there's a printf thing for money, which is allowed to use different characters for grouping and decimals.
10:30:58 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "de_CH"); printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:31:05 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "ja_JP"); printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:31:20 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "fa_IR"); printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:31:51 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "ja_JP.utf8"); printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:32:02 <mroman> ``locale -a | grep ja | grep utf
10:32:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `locale: not found
10:32:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: if you want such fancy formatting, use libicu rather than just the small support in libc and locales
10:32:10 <mroman> `` locale -a | grep ja | grep utf
10:32:47 <mroman> it should print vertically
10:33:03 <mroman> a vertical terminal would look weird though
10:33:43 <mroman> although that should really be a terminal issu
10:34:47 <b_jonas> incidentally, in Japanese text with digits written as kanji digits (not a read out number with words like "ten" and "hundred" in it) printed vertically, can you write a decimal point or a negative sign or other numeric punctuations, and if so, how?
10:35:26 <mroman> also bear in mind they count in 10'000
10:37:22 <mroman> I don't even know if they write digits with kanjis
10:38:53 <b_jonas> mroman: they do, mostly in vertical writing, because roman digits don't work in vertical writing
10:39:50 <b_jonas> mroman: you can see it in street signs advertising prices in Japan, eg 600 yen is written as a kanji 6 followed by two of the circular punctuation followed by the kanji for yen.
10:40:05 <mroman> so they write 10000$ as 一〇〇〇〇$?
10:40:21 <b_jonas> mroman: in vertical writing, yes, although I don't know how they write dollar
10:40:38 <b_jonas> mroman: in horizontal, generally they just use roman numerals
10:41:01 <b_jonas> halfwidth ascii numerals that is
10:43:19 <mroman> It would be funny if they indeed used roman numerals
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10:46:45 <mroman> how does one pronounce roman numerals?
10:46:58 <mroman> We just learned to read IV as 4
10:47:05 <mroman> but not how do spell roman numerals
10:48:45 <b_jonas> I don't know. I hate roman numerals, and belive they should not be used for anything,
10:49:17 <mroman> is 2003 spelled as M M three, or M M I I I or M M unus unus unus or M M tres?
10:49:47 <b_jonas> I wish people would stop using them, which has already partly happened since month numbers are almost never written in a roman numeral these days, and clock faces have roman numerals less often, but people still almost always use roman numerals to identify the districts in Budapest.
10:50:14 <mroman> chapters are often numbered with roman numerals
10:51:23 <b_jonas> Admittedly, there _is_ a good reason why districts of Budapest are written in a roman numeral: if you write them with digits in a street address, they are ambiguous with street names that start with a number.
10:52:34 <mroman> ideally the name of the street should contain enough information to navigate to it without a map
10:53:01 <mroman> but people back in the days when streets were named fucked that up
10:53:32 <b_jonas> mroman: we're very far from that. we have lots of sets of streets in Budapest with identical names, which are distinguished by the district number, or very rarely not even by the district number.
10:53:33 <mroman> although some countries have systems where streets are named
10:54:17 <b_jonas> The one I hate the most is "Csömöri út", of which there are two big parallel ones very close to each other.
10:54:53 <mroman> although today with google maps and smartphones this isn't much of an issue
10:54:54 <b_jonas> There are also lots of pairs of prominent streets with not identical but very similar names.
10:55:30 <mroman> but if I think back to the older days it might have made sense to name streets in a way that people with rough knowledge of the city they live in can navigate to it
10:55:38 <b_jonas> mroman: it totally is. there's no easy way to search for a street name together with district number in google maps, unless you already know the postal code
10:55:51 <b_jonas> so ambiguous street names pose a problem in google maps.
10:56:07 <mroman> oh well, street names aren't unique among cities
10:56:18 <b_jonas> (that's probably just a bug they should fix)
10:56:24 <mroman> but they should at least be unique within a city :D
10:56:59 <b_jonas> mroman: oh, among towns they're definitely not unique. most small villages, including ones with only one or few streets, have either a Kossuth utca or Kossuth Lajos utca or a Fő utca
10:57:51 <b_jonas> You can't quite expect them to be unique within a city because of the history of Budapest where it used to be multiple towns unified at different times,
10:58:15 <b_jonas> but that doesn't explain all the duplications: many dupe street names are new or are close and were in the same town originally.
10:58:27 <mroman> well then rename streets :D
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11:37:52 <lambdabot> CYUL 071100Z 31006KT 15SM FEW030 M06/M12 A3031 RMK SC2 SLP267
11:38:01 <boily> shovelable weather.
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11:58:04 <b_jonas> mroman: We've had lots of street renamings for political reasons, and unlike in the 1980s, lately the government has been an asshole about them, renaming the wrong streets to wrong names in wrong ways.
11:58:26 <b_jonas> I don't think we've everd had streets renamed to disambiguate streets that had already had a name.
12:00:03 <b_jonas> In particular, when they renamed streets in the 1980s and 1990s, they had left the signs of the old street name up next to the new one for a few years. Now they don't.
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12:38:35 <Taneb> Information theory exam is this evening :(
12:41:44 <b_jonas> Taneb: huh? wasn't it a formal languages exam?
12:41:59 <Taneb> b_jonas: that was someone else's that I was helping him revise for
12:42:09 <Taneb> There's a lot of exams this week
12:45:25 <Taneb> I think I probably ought to learn information theory
12:49:24 <int-e> a couple of hours before the exam is a good time to remind yourself of those two or three facts that you keep forgetting :P
12:49:52 <int-e> it's a bad time to figure out what the fuck the course was about
12:50:54 <mroman> Information is measured in bits.
12:51:59 <Taneb> int-e: the lecturer had a strong accent which I had difficulty understanding, but provided quite detailed notes online, so I decided to stop going to the lectures and do it in my own time
12:52:12 <Taneb> Unfortunately, only three quarters of my actions happened
12:52:18 <Taneb> (I learnt about half the course in my own time)
12:52:27 <mroman> We had entropy, some coding theory and LFSR?
12:52:59 <Taneb> Coding theory is I think next term
12:53:24 <mroman> not much, just enough to know that there are block codes
12:53:59 <mroman> I'm not sure we had conv... thingies
12:57:46 <int-e> hmm, you could also move towards data compression (Huffman codes, to begin with)
12:58:12 <mroman> that's the time I came up with this stupid idea of compressing data by encoding the next occurences of things
12:58:45 <mroman> well.. not stupid just not as efficient for larger files than what's already being used.
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13:00:07 <int-e> hmm, for strings or single letters? if the latter it sounds like a move to front transformation...
13:00:26 <int-e> (not exactly the same, but similar in spirit)
13:01:18 <mroman> <number of occurences><letter><position*>
13:01:56 <mroman> http://codepad.org/7YhvTZxq
13:02:27 <mroman> you remove already encoded letters from the buffer
13:02:29 <int-e> (the connection is that with a MTF transform, a letter gets encoded by the number of distinct letters seen since the previous occurrence of that letter)
13:03:11 <mroman> which has the effect that letters that were originally too far apart to be encoded as next occurence (if you use n bits you have 2^n lookahead) will come close to each other
13:05:13 <mroman> (http://codepad.org/i2Z71xxh is the decompression)
13:06:21 <mroman> if you use two bits for number of occurences and three bits for position
13:06:35 <int-e> "1. Estimate the information contents of the lecture (in bits)."
13:07:03 <mroman> then you can encode at best 3 occurences of the same letter within 27 letters
13:07:15 <mroman> because once you have found a next occurence you start counting from zero again
13:07:56 <mroman> thus if you encounter a letter s, you can encode three more occurences of the same letter within a range of 27 letters each needing only three instead of 8 bits
13:08:26 <mroman> i.e. with (2,3) "This is a short sentence" can be compressed by 29 bits
13:10:43 <mroman> 40.625% is max for (2,3)
13:11:08 <mroman> at best you can get 87.5%
13:11:16 <mroman> which wasn't good to me
13:11:38 <int-e> well you get RLE as a corner case
13:12:04 <mroman> so I enhanced the compression by adding prefixes that allow to encode more occurences
13:12:18 <mroman> or prefixes that say "next token has (4,8) instead of (2,3)"
13:13:07 <mroman> but I managed to compress larger files only by about 50%
13:13:24 <mroman> where gzip usually at leasts manages 70%
13:13:56 <mroman> It was fun to play around in the boring lectures, but I haven't found any practical usages :D
13:14:52 <mroman> ABCAABBCAAABCCBABCAB compresses poorly :)
13:15:00 <mroman> with my idea this compresses fairly well
13:15:43 <mroman> because once you encoded the A's for example
13:15:51 <mroman> you end up with BCBBCBCCBBCB
13:16:01 <mroman> then encode the Bs and you're only left with CCCCC
13:16:13 <int-e> The reason for bringing up RLE was that it can beat the 1/8 limit (in very special cases, obviously.)
13:17:18 <int-e> Special cases, hmm... PCX was a quite successful image format.
13:17:33 <mroman> if you use 8 bits for number of occurences, and 1 bit for position
13:18:00 <int-e> > (8+8+255*1)/(256*8)
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13:18:54 <FireFly> "next occurrence of things" reminds me of perfect caching
13:19:37 <mroman> but yeah, you can't beat the 1/8 limit
13:20:06 <int-e> > (8+8+255*0)/(256*8) -- this would be RLE, getting *very* lucky (runs of length 256)
13:20:32 <mroman> and (8,1) would only be reasonably if you have sequences like ABABABABABABABABABABAAABABABABABABABABABAABABABABABABABABABABAAABABABABABABAAAAAABBBBBABABABABAB
13:20:55 <mroman> (i.e. worst case for RLE)
13:21:20 <mroman> worst case for RLE is where my idea would perform pretty much best case :D
13:21:44 <mroman> except that a smart RLE would switch to encode (AA,AB,BA,BB) in this case
13:22:04 <mroman> which is something you could do with my method as well
13:22:12 <mroman> but I've never looked more into that
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13:22:25 <mroman> you could encode combinations of letters as well, instead of just single letters
13:22:26 <int-e> and LZ variants would just see a repetition of AB anyway...
13:22:32 <FireFly> Where does the 1/8 figure come from?
13:22:48 <mroman> basically you'd look how many times c[0] occurs, and how many times c[0],c[1] occurs
13:22:51 <int-e> FireFly: from having at least 1 bit per offset
13:23:02 <mroman> if c[0]c[1] occurs more often then you switch to encode multiple letters
13:23:20 <mroman> but that would make compression pretty slow I think
13:23:49 <FireFly> But if you have say 256 repetitions of a string s, you'd get something like s(repeat 1)(repeat 2)(repeat 4)... no?
13:23:58 <int-e> FireFly: mroman's (n,m) uses m/8 bytes per byte in the best case as n gets large.
13:24:20 <mroman> You need at least one bit for every occurence
13:31:53 <mroman> I can compress the Orly.jpg by about 15%
13:36:05 <mroman> well in this case my optimized approach is slighty better than gzip
13:36:48 <mroman> (better than gzip -9 )
13:39:07 <mroman> 15.8% compression with my algo
13:39:13 <mroman> no compression at all with gzip o_O
13:39:42 <mroman> -rw-r--r-- 1 mroman mroman 35222 Jan 7 14:46 lena.gz
13:39:43 <mroman> -rw-r--r-- 1 mroman mroman 35185 Jan 7 14:44 lena.png
13:41:25 <mroman> http://codepad.org/NmUc324s
13:41:46 <mroman> It can beat gzip if you use variable length encodings for occurences/positions
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13:49:58 <mroman> I've never unbugged the optimized version as it seems.
13:56:02 <FireFly> I reversed a compression format some time ago with opcodes for things like "copy x bytes verbatim" or "copy x bytes from history at offset -d", but also interestingly a "copy x bytes verbatim interspersed with null bytes"
13:58:26 <int-e> ascii to utf-16...
13:59:26 <int-e> (windows executables are full of utf-16 strings)
14:01:14 <\oren\> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_SE"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_FI");
14:01:17 <\oren\> printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:01:39 <\oren\> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_SE"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_FI"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:02:46 <int-e> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_SE"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_FI"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:03:08 <HackEgo> 12 340 000,56 | 12340000,56
14:04:05 <FireFly> int-e: yeah, or just compressing sequences of low 16-/32-bit ints
14:04:19 <\oren\> ok, so why does sweden have spaces, while finnish swedish has no-break spaces?
14:04:44 <FireFly> They should probably be non-breaking in both cases
14:04:55 <FireFly> breaking a numeral to multiple lines is just weird
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14:23:35 <\oren\> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "hi_IN"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_JO"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:23:49 <\oren\> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "hi_IN"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_JO"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:23:59 <HackEgo> 12,340,000.56 | 12,340,000.56
14:24:25 <\oren\> awww, no fancy arabic or devanagari numbers?
14:25:23 <\oren\> i wonder what differs between different arabic countries?
14:25:44 <\oren\> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_SA"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_EG"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:25:50 <HackEgo> 12340000.56 | 12,340,000.56
14:26:19 <\oren\> huh. saudis don't use thousands commas
14:26:33 <FireFly> 12 340 000.56 is my preferred style I think...
14:27:11 <FireFly> or I guess I'd use less than a full space to group thousands
14:27:14 <\oren\> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "th_TH"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_AE"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:27:15 <HackEgo> 12,340,000.56 | 12,340,000.56
14:27:53 <\oren\> i bet algeria and lebanon use . for , and , for .
14:28:07 <mroman> \oren\: you need the I flag for that
14:28:29 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "th_TH"); printf("%'I.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_AE"); printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:28:30 <HackEgo> 12,340,000.56 | 12,340,000.56
14:28:36 <\oren\> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "DZ"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_LB"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:28:38 <HackEgo> 12340000.56 | 12,340,000.56
14:29:15 <\oren\> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_DZ"); printf("%'I.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_LB"); printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:29:17 <HackEgo> 12,340,000.56 | 12,340,000.56
14:29:50 <\oren\> huh? really. apparently france didn't rub off on them too badly
14:29:56 <mroman> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "th_TH"); printf("%'I.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "fa_IR"); printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:29:58 <HackEgo> 12,340,000.56 | ۱۲٬۳۴۰٬۰۰۰٫۵۶
14:30:05 <b_jonas> \oren\: right, not only do they break hard eggs on the wrong end, they also write numbers wrong
14:30:23 <mroman> but fa_IR is the only locale I've found so far where I does something.
14:30:34 <b_jonas> huh? what the heck does the flag I mean in there?
14:30:40 <int-e> b_jonas: are you little endian or big endian?
14:30:56 <FireFly> Is I locale-dependent format or something?
14:31:07 <b_jonas> int-e: little-endian. definitely.
14:31:10 <\oren\> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "th_TH"); printf("%'I.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "hi_IN"); printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:31:12 <HackEgo> 12,340,000.56 | १२,३४०,०००.५६
14:31:32 <int-e> b_jonas: also, from which end do you peel a banana?
14:31:37 <\oren\> hindi with I gives you fancy devanagari numbers
14:31:43 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm talking about eggs, of course.
14:32:43 <\oren\> what;s the coide for Urdu?
14:32:45 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't have a definite opinion about banana opening.
14:33:09 <b_jonas> int-e: see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper_orientation
14:34:12 <\oren\> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "ur_PK"); printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:34:24 <mroman> also it seems to be poorly documented
14:34:30 <mroman> I can't find it anywhere on gnu.org
14:34:45 <mroman> http://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Integer-Conversions.html#Integer-Conversions
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14:34:50 <mroman> I expected it to be mentioned here somewhore
14:34:55 <mroman> or under floating points
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14:35:07 <\oren\> I always open a banana from the non-stem end
14:35:15 <\oren\> then put it into a blander
14:36:03 <\oren\> toilet paper shouldn't even come in a cylinder
14:36:16 <mroman> REF (flag_i18n), /* for 'I' */\
14:36:17 <\oren\> it should be in fanfold
14:36:20 <mroman> but it's there in the glibc
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14:37:44 <int-e> b_jonas: I like that the article ends with a reference to Knuth.
14:38:39 <mroman> outdigit = _NL_CURRENT (LC_CTYPE, _NL_CTYPE_OUTDIGIT0_MB + n);
14:47:01 <mroman> __mempcpy (__mempcpy (__mempcpy (newp, file->filename, filenamelen),
14:47:06 <mroman> that looks complicated af
14:47:14 <FireFly> "Toilet paper orientation is often mentioned as a hurdle for married couples." hmm
14:49:18 <ais523> ooh, are we talking about the best Wikipedia article?
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14:58:21 * ais523 sees a process called "aptd" running during an update
14:58:52 <ais523> apparently so, its job seems to be permissions checks on package operations
14:59:25 <int-e> "aptd allows to perform package management tasks, e.g. installing or removing software, using a D-Bus interface." ... sounds useless
15:00:06 <ais523> d-bus does have valid uses, but I'm not sure that's one of them
15:00:56 <int-e> to me it only serves to make software less predictable (read: "smarter")
15:02:46 <ais523> well, something like unity relies on d-bus to get information about the running programs
15:08:56 <izabera> OOP spelled backwards is POO
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15:53:09 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, I found something strange.
15:53:16 <b_jonas> ais523: M:tG card Charmed Pendant.
15:53:52 <b_jonas> from Odyssey, has a mana ability that reveals hidden info in itself, same as Selvala
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15:54:42 <b_jonas> ais523: also Deranged Assistant from Innistrad but at least that one adds a known amount of mana
15:55:54 <b_jonas> And Millikin, from Odyssey too. Why are there so many of these?
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16:00:23 <b_jonas> Incidentally, although this doesn't cause rules problems, Wheel of Sun and Moon can also be used (not only Lich's Mirror) to put cards into a library at mana ability speed.
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16:28:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Smurfix * New user account
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16:30:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46095&oldid=46068 * Smurfix * (-1) de-apostrophied
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17:20:24 <fizzie> I think DBus for desktop notifications makes some amount of sense.
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17:23:04 <fizzie> I think our workstations at the university used aptd to allow us to install what we needed without having to allow overall system-administration access, or general "sudo apt-get" privileges.
17:23:24 <fizzie> Incidentally, I noticed they had recently changed apt-get to drop privileges when it shows the changelog.
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17:23:57 <fizzie> This wasn't the case while I was at the university; you could "sudo apt-get changelog foo" and then just "!sh" out from the less it spawned.
17:24:20 <fizzie> (In a previous installation, where they were trying to use a sudoers file that allowed apt-get to do the same sort of limited software-installation privileges.)
17:24:54 * izabera didn't know that less had !sh
17:25:40 <fizzie> Apparently plain '!' is already a shell, but anyway, that.
17:25:47 <fizzie> I've only used the '!foo' form.
17:26:07 <fizzie> I wonder what the aptd stuff does if you tell it to install a package over DBus, and it has to ask you a question.
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17:45:27 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm here, sorry, and saw what you said
17:45:30 <ais523> just didn't have a reply
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18:17:41 <izabera> is there a way to copy a file descriptor?
18:21:13 <izabera> i want to learn this stuff but i don't even know where to start
18:23:29 <Deewiant> http://www.mikescher.com/blog/1/Project_Euler_with_Befunge
18:45:24 <fizzie> izabera: If not like dup, then like what?
18:45:55 <izabera> like if i read from fd1 i don't want the position to change in fd2
18:47:20 <fizzie> Then, no, that's not possible in general. (What if it's a socket or a pipe?)
18:48:22 <fizzie> If it's a file, you can open the same file again. Very non-portably, /proc/$pid/fd/$N could help you find it if you don't remember what it was.
18:49:03 <izabera> so i open it again, with the same flags, and then seek to the current offset
18:49:33 <izabera> i was just hoping it'd be possible to copy the internal file descriptor structure
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19:20:03 <hppavilion[1]> I've never seen an imperative language with Prolog-like rules instead of functions
19:23:56 <vanila> are you just doing X + prolog until you find an interesting one?
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20:19:04 <hppavilion[1]> Are there any fixities beyond Prefix, Postfix, Infix, Circumfix, Postcircumfix, Precircumfix, and Incircumfix
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20:19:46 <int-e> I hope not, that's starting to sound dirty already.
20:20:15 <izabera> i don't even know what the last ones are
20:21:13 <ais523> izabera: postcircumfix is a[b] or a.(b), that sort of thing
20:21:24 <ais523> precircumfix is presumably the mirror image of that
20:21:30 <ais523> and incircumfix is something that hppavilion[1] made p
20:22:11 <hppavilion[1]> And so is x[y]z, which is one notation for the Hyperoperations
20:22:13 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: then what's x?y(z) ?
20:22:51 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: That is actually x OR y(z), where y(z) is function application, which may or may not be an operation
20:23:11 <hppavilion[1]> ? being random selection in this case, though it could certainly mean something else
20:23:21 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: no, I mean what's its fixity
20:23:42 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: suppose it is a single operator
20:23:48 <ais523> say it's some esolang's notation for x?y:z
20:26:46 <izabera> this is starting to look like c code written by a drunk monkey
20:39:38 <b_jonas> ais523: I think that's probabl x?(y(z)) where x? is a function name
20:39:49 <b_jonas> ais523: in ruby, function names can end in ? or ! or =
20:40:03 <b_jonas> and the syntax has some crazy irregular rules for everything
20:41:01 <b_jonas> at least, that's what it looks like to me
20:41:17 <b_jonas> or else it could be x ? (y(z)) where ? is an infix operator
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20:50:47 <fizzie> It's one of the "positional categories of affixes" table entries in Wikipedia. It's not talking about operators, mind you.
20:51:06 <fizzie> Prefix, suffix/postfix, suffixoid/semi-suffix, infix, circumfix, interfix, duplifix, transfix, simulfix, suprafix, disfix.
20:52:56 <fizzie> `` words 20 | sed -re 's/( |$)/fix\1/g'
20:52:58 <HackEgo> parumfix rftfix villfix olenicfix guibilifix ordamanirvifix cbadornerefix obernofix volutfix aucerdenkofix magnafix tinfix broadfix bergafix caseymafix exterfix samunufix runcifix fidtfix tralefix
21:01:26 <mauris_> broadfix could definitely be a thing
21:27:56 <hppavilion[1]> One could treat (x) as a circumfix operator that returns its argument
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22:01:27 <FireFly> Yeah, I implemented parentheses as a circumfix identity operator in a toy language I created once
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22:02:16 <FireFly> I could see that approach being useful in things like Agda with mixfix operators/functions too
22:08:31 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose one could also treat , as an operator, as in [x, y, z]
22:09:07 <hppavilion[1]> And [] takes such an array and turns it into a list
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22:17:10 <FireFly> In Python , is an operator, but [a,b,c] is separate from that
22:23:16 <mauris_> pretty sure , isn't an operator?
22:23:59 <mauris_> like 3,2 is an exprlist, not an expr https://docs.python.org/2/reference/grammar.html
22:24:11 <mauris_> and you can't overload it they way you have __add__, __mul__...
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22:36:15 <FireFly> I thought it was a tuple-forming operator (but not overloadable), guess that's not how it works
22:44:29 <fizzie> C has a proper operator called ',', but most commas in C source probably aren't instances of it, because there are also commas in argument, initializer and declarator lists (among others), which are more common.
22:48:39 <fizzie> And Forth has a , word that's (presumably) chosen because it makes lists like 123 , 456 , 789 , look somewhat natural.
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22:52:35 <FireFly> Oh right, I think Qt overload the comma operator in C++ for its list type to append elements to a list, too
22:52:43 <FireFly> Which is pretty horrible, but still
22:53:31 <fizzie> An overloaded comma operator no longer has the sequence point properties of the real comma.
22:53:55 <hppavilion[1]> The language I'm currently working on is called Irgex :)
22:54:07 <olsner> doesn't it get some of those properties through argument evaluation when each comma operator is a function call?
22:54:11 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically Regex generalized to the level of TCness, or at least that's the pan
22:55:40 <fizzie> olsner: I guess, but the evaluation order isn't specified.
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23:22:56 <tswett> I never remember what the comma operator in C does.
23:23:22 <lambdabot> ENVA 072250Z 11009KT CAVOK M15/M20 Q1007 RMK WIND 670FT 10010KT
23:23:25 <izabera> if (something) expr1 , expr2; == if (something) { expr1; expr2; }
23:23:30 <fizzie> "The left operand is evaluated as a void expression; there is a sequence point between its evaluation and that of the right operand. Then the right operand is evaluated; the result has its type and value."
23:23:57 <oerjan> i think the airport is a bit colder than here
23:24:19 <lambdabot> EFHK 072320Z VRB01KT CAVOK M28/M30 Q1015 NOSIG
23:24:24 <fizzie> That's getting ridiculous.
23:24:39 <lambdabot> EGLL 072320Z AUTO 21007KT 9999 NCD 03/00 Q1000 NOSIG
23:24:45 <lambdabot> ENRO 072250Z AUTO VRB02KT 9999NDV OVC008/// M22/M24 Q1001
23:24:59 <oerjan> darn helsinki beats røros
23:25:20 <oerjan> (røros is the default "cold as ..." place in norway.)
23:25:33 <fizzie> It's colder in Helsinki than it is in some parts of Lapland at the moment.
23:25:53 <lambdabot> ENSB 072250Z 11014KT CAVOK M11/M17 Q1021 RMK WIND 1400FT 09020KT
23:25:59 <lambdabot> EFRO 072320Z AUTO 32007KT 9999 FEW019 BKN080 BKN100 M26/M28 Q1006
23:26:55 <lambdabot> NZSP 072250Z 13005KT 9999 SCT030 M29/ A2851 RMK CLN AIR 13004KT ALL WNDS GRID SDG/HDG
23:26:59 <fizzie> It's not really a "cold as ..." place, but it's the standard "the northernmost place that has lots of people in it" place, I'd say.
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23:28:40 <oerjan> the south pole seems to have no dew point
23:29:00 <fizzie> They broke the all-time electricity use record in Finland today.
23:30:49 <fizzie> And also measured -41.1 degrees in Muonio.
23:31:15 <fizzie> I don't know if there are any airports nearby, and many places have already started getting warmer, I think -- the whole country's supposed to, in the next days.
23:32:03 <lambdabot> EFET 072320Z AUTO 00000KT 2200 -SN OVC027 ///// Q////
23:32:19 <fizzie> Well, there's apparently no temperature at all in Enontekiö.
23:32:50 <oerjan> is there any air pressure?
23:33:05 <oerjan> maybe they have a vacuum problem.
23:33:05 <fizzie> I think that would've been the Q//// field.
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23:33:40 <fizzie> Still some clouds in the sky, though.
23:36:30 <boily> *munch* *munch* rjan
23:36:47 <boily> (there's a sandwich in my mouth)
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23:40:56 <boily> what's undertale, and why are they transgender?
23:41:30 <shachaf> boily: it's a game at http://undertale.com/ , and it's too good.
23:43:02 <boily> baron munchausen had an operation?
23:43:14 <boily> pixels! must resist the appeal...
23:43:37 <shachaf> boily: what you must resist is spoilers
23:43:52 <shachaf> this is a very spoilable game. don't make the mistake i did. just don't read anything about it.
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23:47:16 <boily> I'll continue what I'm doing, and having had the tab closed since a few bites ago, I'm at no reasonable risk of being spoiled.
23:47:30 <lambdabot> CYUL 072300Z 00000KT 15SM FEW120 SCT160 BKN240 M01/M06 A3028 RMK AC2AC1CI2 SLP256
23:58:47 <hppavilion[1]> The wiki article on Al-Qaeda has a section titled "Criticism"
00:01:18 <hppavilion[1]> I don't think it counts as "Controversy" when you're a rogue nation
00:04:01 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to found DGAFSIWWW. Don't-Give-A-Fuck State on the Internet and World Wide Web.
00:06:49 <fizzie> shachaf: I watched a couple of hours of streams, one of which had reminders to stop watching before playing it every half an hour.
00:07:12 <shachaf> fizzie: Did you take its advice after a couple of hours?
00:07:22 <fizzie> No, I watched everything.
00:12:28 <hppavilion[1]> boily: So I'm making a programming language that has the goal of being a glorified Regex
00:13:58 <hppavilion[1]> I've decided on part of the syntax: for example, to replace "dog" with user input in a file, one would add the filename to the opened_files program variable, then would use this line:
00:15:04 <hppavilion[1]> rf/<filename>/ -> s/dog/(input/)/ -> wf/<filename>/
00:15:10 <shachaf> fizzie: did you see http://i.imgur.com/hLM7hIX.png
00:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> Which is equivalent to wf/<filename>/(s/dog/(input/)/(rf/<filename>/))/
00:15:44 <boily> hppavilion[1]: it sounds strangely similar to ///.
00:15:59 <hppavilion[1]> boily: That's not the whole language; it's just the part called alpha expressions
00:16:27 <hppavilion[1]> Also, s/// isn't the only alpha expression you can use
00:20:17 <fizzie> shachaf: In other words, I did watch through a genocide run.
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00:29:20 <HackEgo> [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER]
00:29:38 <oerjan> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "fi_FI"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
00:34:42 <boily> TIL Finnish number formatting is strangely similar to French.
00:35:07 <oerjan> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "no_NO"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
00:35:10 <boily> maybe Finnish is French.
00:35:18 <oerjan> ...since when do we use periods
00:35:28 <oerjan> that's not what i learned in school :(
00:35:39 <boily> maybe it isn't no_no?
00:35:55 <oerjan> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "no_BM"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
00:35:57 <boily> they wanted to set me the locale but I said no_no_no ♪
00:36:49 <shachaf> boily: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90VCKVDXQwY
00:37:01 <fizzie> oerjan: nn_NO or nb_NO.
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00:37:14 <fizzie> For Nynorsk and Bokmål, respectively.
00:37:24 <boily> shachaf: BWAH AH AH :D
00:37:25 <oerjan> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "nb_NO"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
00:37:26 <\oren\> `cc #include <locale.h> \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "nn_NO"); printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
00:37:55 <boily> oerjan: by the way, which side are you on usually twh
00:38:43 <hppavilion[2]> boily: It's also different from s/// in that alpha expressions are nestable
00:38:51 <\oren\> i thought bokmål was how it's written and nynorsk was the spoken form?
00:39:06 <oerjan> boily: the left side hth
00:39:27 <oerjan> \oren\: no, they're both written forms.
00:40:35 <oerjan> theoretically, neither has an official spoken version, but there at least used to be standard pronunciation in the national broadcaster
00:41:06 <boily> so you write and speak venstrenorsk. makes sense.
00:41:37 <oerjan> which is more or less western oslo for the bokmål and sogn og fjordane dialect for the nynorsk
00:42:02 <oerjan> (western oslo being the posh part)
00:42:52 <oerjan> boily: bokmål, usually, like 90% (?) of norwegians.
00:55:31 <oerjan> <fizzie> At least there's no difference there. <-- actually there were, the spaces are different utf8 chars
00:56:06 <oerjan> for some reason my browser displays one of them as a box
00:59:38 <fizzie> Well, that's just silly.
01:04:02 <fizzie> Seems that fi_FI and sv_FI opt for the non-breaking space, while sv_SE uses just plain space.
01:04:27 <fizzie> I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't due to any sort of official standards, just whatever whoever random guy made the locales happened to go with.
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03:04:57 <HackEgo> A program is an image created by means of prography.
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03:05:33 <HackEgo> :-( \ (* \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ butwhatifichangesomething \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dict-words \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ loudly é \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
03:06:24 <tswett> I wonder if the neural net is capable of learning `loudly stuff.
03:11:02 <\oren\> Hmm... it only requires O(1) space
03:12:14 <\oren\> ok so I think it can probably learn that sometimes Hackego writes in loudly format
03:13:15 <oerjan> `culprits butwhatifichangesomething
03:13:16 <\oren\> `` cat butwhatifichangesomething
03:13:18 <HackEgo> cat: butwhatifichangesomething: No such file or directory
03:14:19 <HackEgo> dict-words: assembler source, UTF-8 Unicode text
03:14:47 <\oren\> `butwhatifichangesomething
03:14:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: butwhatifichangesomething: not found
03:14:48 <HackEgo> 8ballreplies \ autowelcome_status \ awesome \ cat \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello2.c \ hello.c \ lua \ maze \ maze.c \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ units.dat \ WordData
03:15:14 <oerjan> \oren\: protip, i just deleted it
03:16:09 <oerjan> `culprits works even if it has been deleted
03:16:24 <oerjan> `culprits nosuchthingever
03:16:59 <oerjan> ok, so it works even if it has never existed too
03:17:45 <\oren\> ｈｍｍ． ｍａｙｂｅ ｔｈｅ ｄｅｓｃｎｄｅｒｓ ｏｎ ｗｉｄｅ ｌａｔｉｎ ｌｏｏｋ ｗｅｉｒｄ ｙａｇａｊａｑａｐ
03:17:52 <HackEgo> brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fizziecoin.jpg \ fueue.c \ ploki \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ u8tbl.c \ ul.emm
03:18:35 <HackEgo> share/hello: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, BuildID[sha1]=0xa19cb2ef532bda400dc788c2a489ae39a14ceaec, stripped
03:18:37 <\oren\> ｙａｈ Ｉ ｓｈｏｕｌｄ ｓｈｏｒｔｅｎ ｔｈｅ ａｓｃｎｅｄｅｒ ａｎｄ ｆｉｘ ｔｈａｔ
03:19:09 <\oren\> ｉｔ ｈａｓ ｄｅｓｃｅｎｄｅｒｅｄ ｌｅｔｔｅｒｓ ｎｅｘｔ ｔｏ ａ’ｓ
03:23:44 <tswett> \oren\: I think it'll be able to learn that `loudly is what prompts the loudly format.
03:24:09 <tswett> Interestingly, the net seemed to learn that bots respond to bot-commands *before* it learned which things go with which bot.
03:24:33 <tswett> So if anyone did a `learn or a @tell or anything, you'd randomly get a response from HackEgo or lambdabot.
03:24:49 <tswett> Even now, every so often someone will do a `le/rn which causes lambdabot to say "Consider it noted."
03:27:03 <tswett> There are some things which the net pretty much never gets right, and never will.
03:27:19 <tswett> When someone does a `?, HackEgo will respond with a wisdom entry, but it will never be the correct one.
03:27:43 <tswett> Wait, `? doesn't tell you the name of the entry you requested.
03:28:12 <tswett> Okay, when someone does `learn or `le/rn, it will always echo back the entry name incorrectly.
03:29:48 <HackEgo> wlcom/Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)
03:29:58 <HackEgo> foe/the foe is the Field-On Enemy
03:30:06 <HackEgo> haar measure/A Haar measure is what Dutch people use to find out how long their hair is.
03:30:13 <HackEgo> hthyh/"hthyh" is a common typo for "tithe".
03:30:23 <HackEgo> fisdom/fisdom is the domination by the federal inspection station.
03:30:29 <HackEgo> ostrich/Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with Turkey. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
03:30:41 <HackEgo> languabe/Languabes are edible and fun. They provide a quick implementation energy boost!
03:30:47 <HackEgo> 0/702 matching entries found.
03:30:53 <HackEgo> jwinslow23/JWinslow23 is not here.
03:30:58 <HackEgo> mockingbird/mockingbird is watching you.. closely! Is it mocking you? Probably.
03:31:02 <HackEgo> gotton/gotton is a quantum of attention. Solain drives the packet.
03:32:51 <zgrep> HackEgo: Ah, my digital friend, what didst thou wish to speak to me about?
03:33:35 <zgrep> Apparently HackEgo (and other bots too, as I've learned) don't want to talk to me. :(
03:46:51 <HackEgo> ☃/Frosty the Snowman / had a very shiny nose / And everywhere that Frosty went / the nose was sure to go.
03:49:04 <HackEgo> Learned '`': `? this | this
03:49:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unlearn: not found
03:49:52 <Elronnd> Is there a way to unlearn something?
03:50:24 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x261a 0x2620
03:52:24 <Elronnd> apparently 2^^^3 is larger than computers can calculate
03:52:37 <Elronnd> I suddenly have a newfound appreciation for graham's number
03:52:44 <shachaf> Computers can calculate it just fine.
03:52:53 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x232d 0x2335
03:53:16 <Elronnd> shachaf: that doesn't work
03:54:13 <Elronnd> > "2" ++ "^" ++ "(" ++ "3" ++ "^" ++ "(" ++ "3" ++ "^" ++ "3" ++ ")" ++ ")"
03:55:03 <shachaf> Oh, certainly not in base 2 representation.
03:55:14 <shachaf> That's horribly inefficient for numbers like these.
03:55:46 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x21f9 0x21ff
03:57:39 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x2139 0x2139
03:57:53 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x214f 0x214f
04:00:43 <\oren\> ａｓ ｅｘｐｅｃｔｅｄ， ｔｈｅ ｗｉｄｅ ｌｏｗｅｒｃａｓｅ ｗｉｔｈ ｒａｉｓｅｄ ｍｉｄｄｌｅｓ ｌｏｏｋｓ ｂｅｔｔｅｒ
04:01:38 <\oren\> but it looks wierd mixed with wide uppercase, but that rarely occurs
04:05:15 <HackEgo> Elronnd int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull oerjan
04:06:09 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
04:06:13 <HackEgo> ` is the prefix to greatness.
04:07:52 <oerjan> `revert is not `unlearn btw it only reverts the last change
04:08:12 <oerjan> (or back to a given point)
04:08:18 <shachaf> BLAHrevert undoes the last change to wisdom/BLAH
04:08:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `revert: not found
04:09:12 <oerjan> also it's not a sandboxed command, so you cannot use it from ``
04:09:13 <\oren\> so yah I pdtduae my http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
04:09:56 <\oren\> I'm excited about being able to use ☠
04:11:00 <\oren\> now I can mark bad code with the simple comment //☠
04:11:15 <oerjan> also that strange error message `revert gives is harmless and fizzie is supposed to fix it.
04:12:20 <oerjan> (or Gregor. theoretically.)
04:12:42 <shachaf> no one is supposing that fizzie or Gregor will fix it
04:12:54 <HackEgo> [U+2620 SKULL AND CROSSBONES]
04:13:10 <HackEgo> U+2620 SKULL AND CROSSBONES \ UTF-8: e2 98 a0 UTF-16BE: 2620 Decimal: ☠ \ ☠ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
04:13:11 <oerjan> shachaf: i see no contradiction hth
04:15:05 <Elronnd> \oren\: No offense, but tbh your font is kind of hard to read
04:15:49 <shachaf> \oren\ never claimed it was a font of knowledge.
04:17:32 <oerjan> sure it is, you need a lot of knowledge to understand it hth
04:21:41 <\oren\> Elronnd: which letters?
04:22:47 <Elronnd> \oren\: well, I guess I wouldn't say any letters in particular are hard to read
04:23:11 <Elronnd> it's just that the font as a whole... while attractive, isn't something that's clear or easy enough for me to use on a day-to-day basis
04:25:44 <\oren\> Well yeah most of the letters are in a radical geometric sans-serif form... like more radical than futura. So yeah, it disrupts the part of people
04:26:01 <\oren\> 's brains that are expecting normal letterforms
04:29:45 <\oren\> the main point when I originally designed it was to make my terminal look like I'm from 2100
04:30:19 <\oren\> by using ideas from a font from 1927. history is weird
04:30:37 <\oren\> aesthetics are also weird
04:36:21 <\oren\> well I also have a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a
04:36:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46096&oldid=46081 * 114.78.111.34 * (+78) /* P */
04:36:43 <\oren\> so that was also an initial motivation
04:45:25 <HackEgo> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon.
04:45:45 <oerjan> `learn_append oren He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a.
04:45:48 <HackEgo> Learned 'oren': oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a.
04:51:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'elronnd': Elronnd ...
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05:52:05 <Taneb> oerjan: hehehe (re: freefall
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06:02:57 <\oren\> I'm tring to find an embark spot with a waterfall
06:03:25 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: Powershell?
06:03:43 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: Just port zsh to windows
06:04:20 <Elronnd> all the existing shells are good enough
06:04:32 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: But I find making a new shell 10000000000000000000000000 times more fu
06:05:01 <Elronnd> what language will it be written in?
06:05:35 <Elronnd> You probably shouldn't write a shell in r
06:05:50 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: I'm thinking a prototype in python followed up by a C-based full version
06:06:06 <Taneb> Elronnd: that sounds like a great reason to write a shell in r
06:06:22 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: be warned: python uses /bin/sh for os.system()
06:07:00 <Elronnd> I was just cautioning you *against* using it
06:07:03 <hppavilion[1]> I'm talking about the command-line language; not just the window xD
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06:08:44 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Luckily, I already wrote a parser using PLY that does pretty much a full BASH-like shell (featurewise, not syntaxwise. Just for individual commands, not a full file thing)
06:10:16 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: PLY was what was available to me, and it worked well. Don't need a holy war over what type to use
06:11:18 * Elronnd points and curses at keyboard
06:12:34 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: I think I'll make it support Unicode, for starters
06:23:10 * oerjan is slightly worried whether anyone remembered Agatha's weasel in the confusion
06:27:56 <oerjan> hm also, which princess?
06:29:52 <oerjan> oh, maybe it's the king's daughter who hoffman was supposed to marry
06:30:13 <oerjan> it would make sense if she didn't approve of the plan
06:32:57 <oerjan> other, very bad option: clank princess anevka
06:34:43 <oerjan> the lamb-duh calculus, for people not impressed by functional programming
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06:36:55 <oerjan> or does colette count? the master doesn't call himself king...
06:43:13 <hppavilion[1]> (repre is similar to sed, if I know my unix correctly)
06:43:55 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, I think it's more like repre = allf $3?>. | map {replace $1 $2} #0 > #0
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06:46:21 <oerjan> no idea what it even means.
06:47:35 <hppavilion[1]> $<num> references an argv, the ?> operator is alternation (if the previous statement fails, do this instead), . is the cwd, | is pipe (I think I changed it to |>, actually), map is, of course, map, {...} forms an lambda, replace takes three arguments (from, to, in -> s/from/to/ over in) and #<num> references piped-over variables, specifically with #0 representing the full list. And, of courses, > redirectes to a file, clobbering its
06:52:38 <oerjan> your lambdas have a distinct lack of parameters tdnh
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07:28:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46097&oldid=46096 * Mroman * (-78) Undo revision 46096 by [[Special:Contributions/114.78.111.34|114.78.111.34]] ([[User talk:114.78.111.34|talk]]) -- Python is not "esoteric" and has no page on this wiki.
07:34:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46098&oldid=46097 * Oerjan * (-14) /* F */ I think the original author has had enough time to make an article for this language I cannot find. Removing.
07:51:48 <b_jonas> ais523: more M:tG theory. in typical games, if the player had perfect memory and attention, then except during playing spells, he could know the multisets of identities of cards he owns in all zones, because when a card he owns moves between zones, he can almost always look at it.
07:52:15 <ais523> I can think of a few exceptions, mostly related to exiling the top coard of a library face-down
07:52:25 <ais523> but that is normally true
07:52:36 <b_jonas> Exactly: there are some cards that break this: Duplicity, Grimoire Thief, and a few others move cards from your library to exile face down without the owner looking at them.
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07:54:26 <b_jonas> As a result, if you put more than one instance of the same card in your deck, it's normally better for your game to use indistinguishable copies, because distinguishable copies (eg. two Giant Growths from different sets) can give your opponent extra information.
07:55:02 <b_jonas> But in some of those rare cases with Duplicity etc, it can in theory (not much in practical matches) happen that it's better for your game to have distinguishable copies of the same card in your deck.
07:56:05 <b_jonas> This can happen if you exile multiple cards face down from your library, then scry, shuffle, and scry your library. If you see two different Giant Growths from the two scrying, you can tell that you don't have either of them exiled face down.
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07:57:20 <b_jonas> Now my rules question for this is. During a game, are you permitted to alter the appearance of cards you own to make them distinguishable (as in, distinguishable even after they're shuffled in the library) when they were previously indistinguishable, or the reverse? And when can you do that?
07:58:06 <b_jonas> Similarly, are you permitted to alter the cards this way during a match outside games, or even between matches in a tournament where you must play multiple matches with the same deck?
07:58:30 <b_jonas> I presume you aren't permitted to alter the cards you don't own.
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08:00:44 <b_jonas> Is the first part of this, altering cards during the game, at least partly a game rules question (as opposed to a tournament rules question)?
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08:04:30 <b_jonas> And does this question even make sense?
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09:22:26 <mroman> <meta name="generator" content="human">
09:28:24 <mroman> seems not to work in firefox
09:28:35 <mroman> nav ul li:not(last-child):after
09:29:48 <mroman> oh it's :not(:last-child)
09:30:23 <mroman> nav ul li:not(:last-child)::after { content: ' | '; }
09:30:30 <fizzie> I think it's both :after and ::after, but the latter is more modern.
09:30:47 <mroman> if you want to insert | between two nav links without having it to add to the html
09:30:55 <b_jonas> Luckily in practice it's very rare for any player to gain gameplay advantage from distinguishable-after-shuffle copies this way, and the advantage is very slight,
09:31:16 <b_jonas> so in practical games I often can and do run distinguishable copies of cards.
09:32:31 <b_jonas> I run copies of a conventional basic land with different art, because decks often have lots of copies and they're often on the battlefield and it's nice to have variety in the art (if you've ever played a deck with 11 Coldsnap snow swamps you'll know what I mean).
09:33:00 <b_jonas> And for some cards I don't have enough copies of the preferred variant in my collection, so I run different copies in a deck because of that.
09:34:35 <mroman> is column-count not CSS3?
09:35:52 <Taneb> I could write a blog-post "How to use AWK if you're a madman who learnt to program using Haskell and Piet"
09:36:16 <b_jonas> And if someone wants to alter the front of a card during a game, it's most likely with the intent of marking it temporarily within a zone, it just might be physically more convenient to mark it permanently.
09:36:56 <mroman> does the h* (such as h1,h2) go into a <section>
09:37:12 <mroman> <section><h2>foo</h2><p>text</p></section> or <h2>foo</h2><section>...
09:37:33 <mroman> but then you'd need to wrap the p's inside another element to be able to define multi-column
09:37:39 <b_jonas> mroman: see examples under http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/semantics.html#the-section-element
09:38:19 <b_jonas> and the description there as well
09:38:39 <mroman> oh there's column-span though
09:38:55 <mroman> multicolumns suck when you resize the window
09:39:07 <mroman> ideally you'd specify a max-column-count
09:39:18 <mroman> or something like that and the browser calculates how many
09:39:28 <mroman> because on a smartphone display having two columns looks like crap
09:40:31 <mroman> ah firefox doesn't support column-span
09:40:31 <fizzie> Isn't that why you do column-width without column-count?
09:41:49 <fizzie> Something like that. It's the minimum width, and I think the browser's supposed to make as many columns of at least that width as it can fit.
09:43:13 <mroman> does chromium have webkit?
09:44:29 <fizzie> Well, it's got Blink, which is WebKit-based.
09:45:05 <fizzie> So I think the answer is more "yes" than "no".
09:49:09 <mroman> although generally I think people don't like reading webpages with multi-columns
09:52:58 <mroman> can you reference figures :D?
09:54:23 <fizzie> I was once at our university library, and happened to glance at a maths journal on the "new journal issues" display table.
09:54:24 <mroman> firefox uses bing now as default search engine?
09:54:31 <fizzie> Before the table of contents, there was a complicated-looking diagram of something or another, with the caption: "Fig. 1: A fascinating picture."
09:54:39 <fizzie> Yes, they switched the default relatively recently.
09:55:09 <fizzie> Although I thought it was Yahoo they switched to?
09:56:16 <fizzie> Though I guess Yahoo's search results come from Bing.
09:59:14 <mroman> I like how the want html to be more "semantic"
09:59:29 <mroman> you can't reference things in your document properly
10:00:37 <mroman> can you do counters with css?
10:01:50 <fizzie> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/generate.html#counters in CSS 2.1 -- not sure how that's evolved since then.
10:03:25 <mroman> but can you make a link to an element that uses counters
10:05:14 <fizzie> You mean like a proper LaTeX \ref{}, so that it mentions the value in the link? Hmm.
10:05:15 <mroman> My figures have a counter now
10:05:32 <mroman> figcaption::before { content: 'Fig. ' counter(figures) ': '; }
10:05:40 <mroman> all figures have also a unique id
10:05:54 <mroman> now I'd want see figure <give me counter of figure with id foo>
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10:08:28 <fizzie> Heh. All I can find is the "CSS Generated Content for Paged Media Module" draft, which defines what you want (a target-counter() function that takes the counter value by following a link), but doesn't seem to have been implemented anywhere.
10:09:37 <mroman> You can't access content with css?
10:10:58 <mroman> content(attr(target)) works
10:12:18 <mroman> that would just give me the current counter state
10:12:50 <fizzie> As far as I can tell, it's just not something you can do. Although the target-counter function seems to have been picked up by the "CSS Books" WHATWG spec, which probably isn't implemented in browsers either.
10:13:55 <fizzie> The thinking seems to be that you only do cross-references with numbers when you're doing "print".
10:16:12 <fizzie> Also, I like how MDN's documentation on the new sections-and-outlines stuff starts with: "There are currently no known implementations of the outline algorithm in graphical browsers -- the outline algorithm cannot be relied upon to convey document structure to users. Authors are advised to use heading rank (h1-h6) to convey document structure."
10:17:15 <mroman> I would have liked a general <h>
10:17:29 <mroman> and the browsers determine the level based on section nesting or something like that
10:18:00 <mroman> I think the whole semantig tag thing is almost useless
10:18:13 <mroman> that's not the reason people use HTML5 :)
10:18:52 <mroman> and printing webpages is even more pain in the ass anyway
10:24:12 <mroman> I don't even know what the status of screen readers is
10:24:21 <mroman> for example to read mathml or things like that
10:25:57 <mroman> ChromeVox apparentely supports mathjax output
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11:50:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: widsom: not found
11:50:31 <HackEgo> metasepia/metasepia knew the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks.
11:51:04 <boily> oh, how I wish I could ~metar again...
11:51:09 <lambdabot> CYUL 081100Z 02007KT 5SM BR SKC M07/M08 A3026 RMK SLP251
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12:23:26 <Taneb> What happened to metasepia?
12:30:30 <b_jonas> Incidentally, video of AGDQ 2016 run of Crypt of the Necrodancer in hard mode is up now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIeYb_vLirQ
12:30:34 <b_jonas> worth to watch the game part
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13:46:39 <mroman> they want to lecture refugees on how to treat women
13:47:05 <mroman> refugees/asylum seekers
13:47:56 <mroman> we lecture US citizens about gun safety :D
13:55:12 <fizzie> I heard they already lecture asylum seekers on exactly that topic in Finland.
13:55:31 <fizzie> Yes. I don't know if this is true.
13:55:57 <fizzie> I mean, obviously they will do some amount of lecturing on what the country is like, culturally.
13:56:14 <fizzie> And I doubt anyone really objects to that much.
13:56:18 <mroman> well it makes sense to lecture them about culture and some base laws
13:56:49 <mroman> and if that means telling them "having sex against someone's will is rape and is a crime" ... I guess that's fine
13:57:24 <mroman> (technically it'd be only rape if the victim is female but that's a detail)
13:57:31 <mroman> (let's just use "sexual assault")
13:58:24 <mroman> It especially makes sense because certain countries allow sex at much younger ages
13:58:40 <mroman> or marriages at younger ages
13:59:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46099&oldid=45925 * Timwi * (+9216) Remove all the subpages with Funciton code and just list the functions here directly. Link to the github repo containing the actual source.
14:01:03 <HackEgo> 2016-01-08 14:01:02.160115000+00:00
14:01:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Functions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46100&oldid=44342 * Timwi * (-807) Replaced content with "This page can be deleted."
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14:02:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Lazy-evaluated sequences]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46102&oldid=44354 * Timwi * (-83683) Replaced content with "This page can be deleted."
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14:02:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Basic arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46104&oldid=44339 * Timwi * (-22136) Replaced content with "This page can be deleted."
14:02:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Advanced arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46105&oldid=35281 * Timwi * (-9258) Replaced content with "This page can be deleted."
14:02:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/String handling]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46106&oldid=38070 * Timwi * (-27510) Replaced content with "This page can be deleted."
14:03:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46107&oldid=46099 * Timwi * (+78) /* Fundamentals */ forgot cross-nop
14:06:12 <int-e> Ah, the function definitions (now omitted) are big.
14:06:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46108&oldid=46107 * Timwi * (+283) /* More functions */ Add remaining newest functions
14:16:02 <mroman> I was thinking about having a github repository called esowiki
14:16:27 <mroman> which people can easily clone and then do pull requests
14:16:52 <mroman> and then link to there from the esowiki
14:17:07 <mroman> rather than using mediafire and whatnot
14:17:30 <mroman> and all snippets/examples/interpreters would roughly be at the same place
14:18:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46109&oldid=40085 * Timwi * (+193) /* “delete” */
14:20:59 <int-e> Meh, I still find this mediawiki behaviour counterintuitive: When you are on a diff page, the active "tab" has a link (here: 'Discussion') that leads to a different page (namely, the current version of that page rather than the diff)...
14:21:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cardinal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46110&oldid=46094 * Timwi * (+6)
14:22:45 <mroman> because if mediafire shuts down for some copyright related reasons or whatever
14:23:04 <mroman> it also happens a lot that somebody hosts stuff on personal sites and then it gets lost :)
14:23:16 <mroman> or uses an upload site that only stores things for a year or so
14:24:08 <mroman> although according to the external link search and a few tests these mediafire zip files usually contain only an exe of the interpreter :(
14:24:39 <int-e> mm, mediafire... wtf is wrong with web designers?
14:25:16 <int-e> you have about one page worth of text... and spread it out to 6
14:25:40 <mroman> there are 54 mediafire links apparentely
14:25:53 <mroman> (https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=500&offset=0&target=http%3A%2F%2F*.mediafire.com)
14:26:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[You are Reading the Name of this Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46111&oldid=43585 * Timwi * (-1)
14:27:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46112&oldid=46098 * Timwi * (+12) /* E */
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14:38:24 <int-e> (I guess I was a bit unfair... at least the site shows some useful contents without Javascript.)
14:45:34 <mroman> lately I've seen more sites that detect my adblocker and then just don't show me the real content
14:46:52 <b_jonas> mroman: I don't see that much, or at least I don't notice that that's why a site doesn't load, but some sites at least seem to deliberately serve ad images faster than the images of the main content
14:47:27 <int-e> b_jonas: or perhaps you're just mistaken about what the main content is...
14:47:30 <b_jonas> This needn't be deliberate, it's possible that the ads are just on an external server that's fast.
14:49:11 <b_jonas> huh... lua 5.3 has the bitwise operators have a higher precedence than the comparison operators? HERECY! they don't respect the traditions decreed on us by the prophets K&R.
14:49:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:HelloWorld]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46113&oldid=45761 * 205.222.248.69 * (+68) /* Add More */ new section
14:51:34 <int-e> b_jonas: good for them :)
14:52:33 <mroman> bild.de (german newspaper) blocks me for example
14:53:28 <mroman> although it might also be due to me not allowing third party cookies
14:53:46 <mroman> seems like deactivating privacy badger and adblock still blocks me
14:54:25 <int-e> without CSS and Javascript I can read some articles there... isn't that fun
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14:55:10 <b_jonas> let me see... for me, http://www.bild.de it puts an overlay covering most of the page saying that the site needs javascript, but if I delete the overlay, I get to see some actual headlines and images stuff under
14:55:47 <int-e> and with CSS disabled, the "overlay" ends up at the end of the page.
14:56:36 <int-e> but in any case I'm not really interested in that particular site
14:56:53 <b_jonas> similarly, an article http://www.bild.de/sport/wintersport/franziska-hildebrand/holt-heimsieg-in-ruhpolding-44072962.bild.html is covered by the overlay but there's a short article under
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14:58:22 <mroman> funnily enough I probably only need to deactivate javascript
15:00:12 <mroman> use firebug to remove the stupid <noscript> overlay hiding the content
15:00:20 <mroman> I can read the news again
15:00:41 <mroman> or whatever you call that
15:00:54 <int-e> Springer propaganda :P
15:02:31 <int-e> Lügenpresse, perhaps... hmmmmmm. Slippery road though.
15:06:07 <mroman> real news is usually depressing so
15:06:19 <mroman> no wonder nobody wants to read real news
15:07:34 <mroman> news is either bad or it's about celebrities
15:07:45 <mroman> there are only two categories of news
15:07:51 <mroman> bad news and celibrity news
15:08:54 <int-e> that's news and gossip to me...
15:09:29 <int-e> it's nice to see that even celebrities have a life, but I don't have to read about it every day.
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15:21:53 <HackEgo> 823) <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] <oerjan> [...] "avoid success at all costs"
15:22:18 <HackEgo> twoducks/TwoDucks programming language was invented in 2023.
15:22:44 <FireFly> Y'know, that joke will be less amusing in six yeas
15:23:26 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/twoducks
15:27:56 * FireFly isn't very good at mental maths today
15:28:40 <myname> hint: 6 p 6 cannot be odd
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15:33:18 <mroman> http://codepad.org/WAlLeHb0
15:33:23 <mroman> I'm thinking about doing something like this.
15:38:14 <mroman> all these how to loose weight tricks
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15:52:47 <mroman> or I might have another idea actually
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16:26:22 <Taneb> Does anyone here have any experience with drawille?
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17:59:01 <Taneb> I ended up not using drawille
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19:32:48 <hppavilion[1]> What kinds of alpha-expressions (where s/regex/substitution/text/ is an alpha expression) could I add to Irgex?
19:35:15 <izabera> there's an esolang called /// that does something similar
20:03:53 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Yes, but that's not the whole language I'm making
20:10:24 <Taneb> hppavilion[1]: have you seen AWK
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20:32:30 <myname> hppavilion[1]: what is |~x|?
20:34:06 <hppavilion[1]> As a fixity? It's either circumfix (|~ ... |) or a circufix around a prefix
20:34:54 <myname> also: what is x? i thought there was no such thing
20:52:34 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Oh, right. I forgot to mention that e.g. 5 is shorthand for $5
20:53:55 <myname> so, we could add two @-like numbers with |~@| is either ~@ or &@ :p
20:54:40 <myname> it doesn't two reals, either
20:55:38 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But @ is defined with the - sign, so it makes even less sense with the trigns
21:00:43 <izabera> addition is easy, until you realize that 666+666+666+6+6+6 == 2016
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21:19:53 <b_jonas> I can't get the signs right
21:21:56 <myname> there is no such thing as a -
21:34:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/List handling]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46114&oldid=46101 * Ais523 * (-3) redirect to [[Funciton]]; best to have the content in the wiki history in case github goes down / someone wants a CC0 version, so redirecting rather than deleting
21:34:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Lazy-evaluated sequences]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46115&oldid=46102 * Ais523 * (-3) redirect to [[Funciton]]; best to have the content in the wiki history in case github goes down / someone wants a CC0 version, so redirecting rather than deleting
21:34:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Fundamentals]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46116&oldid=46103 * Ais523 * (-3) redirect to [[Funciton]]; best to have the content in the wiki history in case github goes down / someone wants a CC0 version, so redirecting rather than deleting
21:35:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Basic arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46117&oldid=46104 * Ais523 * (-3) redirect to [[Funciton]]; best to have the content in the wiki history in case github goes down / someone wants a CC0 version, so redirecting rather than deleting
21:35:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Advanced arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46118&oldid=46105 * Ais523 * (-3) redirect to [[Funciton]]; best to have the content in the wiki history in case github goes down / someone wants a CC0 version, so redirecting rather than deleting
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21:35:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/String handling]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46119&oldid=46106 * Ais523 * (-3) redirect to [[Funciton]]; best to have the content in the wiki history in case github goes down / someone wants a CC0 version, so redirecting rather than deleting
21:37:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Funciton/Functions]]": author request; this was just an index page, all useful content is in the history of other subpages
21:37:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/99 bottles of beer on the wall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46120&oldid=22212 * Ais523 * (-23) delink deleted page
21:38:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Digital root calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46121&oldid=24768 * Ais523 * (-23) delink deleted page
21:38:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46122&oldid=36375 * Ais523 * (-23) delink deleted page
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21:51:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46123&oldid=46109 * Ais523 * (+469) /* “delete” */ r to Timwi
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22:24:22 <mauris> is anyone here going to FOSDEM later this month?
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22:28:31 <ais523> fizzie: esolangs.org went down about a minute ago, 504
22:28:41 <ais523> as you can see by my edits, it was working earlier
22:29:48 <fizzie> Works for me now. I'll see if the error log has anything to say.
22:31:07 <fizzie> "110: Connection timed out"s from the PHP fastcgi socket.
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22:32:22 <fizzie> I think I'm also missing few short-url aliases, because there are errors opening /w/extensions/WikiEditor/modules/images/toolbar/button-sprite.svg that it's trying to open from the static content root, not the MediaWiki installation.
22:33:23 <fizzie> Yeah, seems that it was returning 504s consistently for everything for a few minutes there.
22:33:46 <fizzie> Oh, and 499s, which is new to me.
22:33:59 <fizzie> "A non-standard status code introduced by nginx for the case when a client closes the connection while nginx is processing the request."
22:34:25 <fizzie> Sounds likely to be related to the same thing, if it also took long to get the 504.
22:35:39 <fizzie> There's a kernel kworker thread stack trace in the log just when it starts to go wonky.
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22:37:07 <fizzie> "BUG: soft lockup - CPU#2 stuck for 24s! [kworker/2:1:26784]"
22:37:44 <fizzie> Seems to be something happening every month or two, based on the logs.
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22:50:11 <fizzie> You may be seeing some transient errors still; doing very belated updates of some things.
23:16:15 <ais523> 24s is approximately the length of a typical watchdog timer
23:16:25 <ais523> a long one, that is (the short ones are more like 1s)
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23:23:35 <fizzie> # ps auxww | grep '\[python\] <defunct>' | wc -l
23:23:40 <fizzie> That doesn't seem too great either.
23:24:04 <fizzie> pstree says they're all children of multibot.
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23:25:47 <ais523> fizzie: looks like you need to tell multibot to clear up its zombies
23:26:28 <fizzie> s/you need/someone needs/
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23:48:09 * oerjan eats his last ferrero rocher chocolate ball from christmas
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23:53:13 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, ferrero also makes kinder eggs
23:53:23 <shachaf> which are illegal in the us
23:53:59 <fizzie> I mean, the name of the company making them.
23:54:19 <fizzie> I had been assuming the "Kinder" was part of the name of the company somehow.
23:55:34 <shachaf> I think I mixed them up with Cadbury, which also makes chocolate eggs.
23:55:58 <oerjan> once the us gets done protecting their kids against everything they'll be confused when they start dying of boredom hth
23:56:28 <shachaf> it's a secret plot by the them
23:56:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i think it's mostly because the us has a law against putting not-food inside food
23:56:50 <Phantom_Hoover> possibly it was to keep prisoners escaping by baking a saw into a cake
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23:57:25 <oerjan> well i _assume_ it would be to prevent children from choking on something.
23:57:57 <oerjan> hm... edible plastic toys.
23:58:31 <oerjan> (nah they'd just be prohibited for encouraging eating real toys)
23:59:26 <mauris_> plastic eggs with tiny chocolate and a tiny toy inside
00:00:59 <oerjan> . o O ( actually it's to prevent rednecks from choking on them, children are far too smart )
00:01:11 * oerjan probably counts as a redneck in this channel
00:01:35 <fizzie> "In June 2012, CBP held two Seattle men for two and a half hours after discovering six Kinder Surprise eggs in their car upon returning to the U.S. from a trip to Vancouver."
00:02:23 <fizzie> The toys have gotten worse, anyway.
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00:03:01 * oerjan hasn't seen a kinder egg for over a decade, probably.
00:03:21 <oerjan> well, an unpacked one.
00:03:26 <fizzie> Someone brought them to work around Easter.
00:03:40 <fizzie> I got a bicycle out of it, which at least had separate parts.
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00:12:14 <FireFly> are kinder eggs kinder than regular eggs?
00:13:28 <shachaf> fizzie: A bicycle? That's a big egg.
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00:58:04 <hppavilion[1]> Did you know that, in Starlings from the TMAMb forest, XZ(YZ) syndrome is 15% more common than normal?
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01:00:23 <oerjan> i know some of those words.
01:00:52 <oerjan> that is one of the words i knew, thx
01:01:02 <shachaf> oerjan: it's an s combinator joke hth
01:01:34 * oerjan uses the saucepan to whack hppavilion[1] across the channel ===\__/
01:02:14 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It's also a joke about syndromes like XXY and XYY- OW! HEY!
01:02:42 <hppavilion[1]> Also, birds use ZW instead of XY, so the presence of an X in a bird is a bit terrifying
01:02:50 <shachaf> I suppose the channel is big enough to fit a mapole.
01:03:15 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Don't modern mapoles encompass whole galaxies?
01:03:24 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOFws_hhZs8 interesting project
01:04:21 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
01:04:30 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i was trying to interpret XZ(YZ) as such a syndrome, but got confused because XY is for mammals and Z is for birds
01:05:04 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a Python script I can run on someone else's computer that lets me make it talk to them and open webpages "for" them >:)
01:06:03 <hppavilion[1]> Also, execute arbitrary commands. I suppose I could use their computer to form a botnet, but really it's just to troll random people
01:06:09 <MDude> So one that sends commands to their shell?
01:06:30 <hppavilion[1]> MDude: No, I use the win32api and python's webbrowser library
01:06:51 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm pretty sure poles are mainly extended in 1 dimension by definition.
01:07:02 <MDude> Windows has a command line shell.
01:07:10 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Not if embedded in a 9999999999999999 dimensional space
01:07:36 <MDude> It's enough to open web pages and op up messages.
01:07:52 <shachaf> 9999999999999999 is a lot of dimensions
01:07:52 <hppavilion[1]> MDude: Speaking of which, I'm developing CMD++ to make a better command line than the shitty windows CMD
01:08:15 <shachaf> but imagine a 10101010101010101010101010101010-dimensional space
01:08:40 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: even if it's embedded in 9999999999999999 dimensional space, 9999999999999998 of them will be mostly unused hth
01:09:26 <hppavilion[1]> I already have a parser down, complete with redirection
01:09:39 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i reject your pseudoscientific mapole theories
01:09:49 <hppavilion[1]> Unless you know of some additional syntax feature I should include
01:09:54 <MDude> So would a mapole have a cross section that resembles a normal pole, if sliced correctly?
01:10:33 * hppavilion[1] self-saucepans himself across the channel, despite physics ===\__/
01:10:40 <shachaf> did you know maple trees grow in poland?
01:10:41 <MDude> I'm not really sure what's really important for a command line shell.
01:10:47 <oerjan> MDude: apart from the sdl cable
01:10:53 <shachaf> the norway maple, for example
01:11:12 <shachaf> so says http://www.sp21.lublin.pl/nowa/comenius/com_2012/files/The-most-common-trees-in-Poland.pdf
01:11:36 <MDude> Cables for command line shells?
01:11:50 <oerjan> maybe it also has an sdl cable due to a typo in goverment specifications
01:12:27 <MDude> If it's a whole remote terminal. sure.
01:12:40 <shachaf> XZ(YZ) includes quite a lot of the chromosomes
01:12:54 <shachaf> if it was XZ(YZ)W then it wouldn't just be chromosome, it would be chromoall
01:15:17 <zzo38> Depending on what the command shell is doing there may be other stuff to add, such as tab-completion, history buffer, etc
01:15:49 <lambdabot> fizzie said 2d 2h 8m 42s ago: It was a semi-unintentional side effect of updating to a new MediaWiki version -- it doesn't enable all installed skins by default (like the old version did), and I only just quick-fixed it by re-enabling the standard one. I will look into enabling the others -- I was wondering whether some of our users were actually
01:15:50 <lambdabot> fizzie said 2d 1h 58m 38s ago: I have re-enabled the three other ones that were still bundled as part of the 1.26 installation (Cologne Blue, Modern, MonoBook). I believe the other two skins that people had historically used (standard, simple) had already been removed in 1.22, the previous version.
01:16:26 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: By "Command line shell" I mean the language it interprets in this case
01:19:24 <zzo38> What do you have already?
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04:37:37 <zzo38> b_jonas: I saw the comment you wrote, that is good so far I suppose
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04:53:00 <int-e> Does the fact that over a single letter alphabet, context-free languages are regular have a name?
04:53:37 <oerjan> just call it James hth
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04:56:30 <int-e> oh well, it's a consequence of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parikh%27s_theorem
04:59:52 <int-e> now to figure out how that's proved...
05:02:21 <oerjan> my hunch is to sort the right side of every production
05:04:42 <oerjan> the cf pumping lemma obviously implies the regular pumping lemma with a single-letter alphabet
05:04:54 <int-e> Ah... I think I see. If a nonterminal is nonrecursive, there's nothing to worry about; otherwise, consider all shortest "paths" S -> XSY, and cancel one occurrence of S on both sides.
05:06:05 <int-e> And that gets rid of the problematic -1 that you'd get from a naive interpretation of S -> X as a (signed) multiset.
05:07:28 <int-e> Still needs some work before it's formal... but it looks doable to me now.
05:14:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46124&oldid=43589 * Quintopia * (+544) /* Communications */
05:15:04 <zzo38> I am in the process of completely rewriting rule 717 of Magic: the Gathering. I hope this new rule will be better than the old one.
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05:17:45 <zzo38> I hope you like it!
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05:43:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46125&oldid=46124 * Oerjan * (-1) /* PPCG */ typo
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08:10:34 <zzo38> One example is that if a library is currently in a random state (it has been shuffled since anyone has looked at any of the cards), then you can reverse that shuffle without doing anything. If it was shuffled but then some players have seen the top card but not all, it cannot be reversed.
08:11:31 <zzo38> If shuffled and then all players both saw the top card and know that all players have seen it, then it is reversed by the owner of the library looking through the cards, finding the card that used to be on top, reveals it, shuffles the rest of the cards, and then puts the revealed card on top.
08:11:53 <zzo38> (By "it is reversed" I mean a further shuffle)
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09:54:00 <zzo38> I need a movie showtime API that can be used in a C code and without any registration required.
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14:10:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Arduvast Gundar * New user account
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14:37:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46126&oldid=44801 * Arduvast Gundar * (+796) /* If x else with only one temporary cell */ new section
14:38:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46127&oldid=46126 * Arduvast Gundar * (+30) /* If x else with only one temporary cell */
15:10:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ragaraja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46128&oldid=40972 * Mauriceling * (+50)
15:11:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ragaraja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46129&oldid=46128 * Mauriceling * (+0)
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15:25:56 <fizzie> It felt like spring out there.
15:26:27 <fizzie> All hail the Sun God, he sure is a fun god.
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16:32:01 <fizzie> tar: '[filename redacted]' > 100 bytes
16:32:07 <fizzie> Why is that a fatal error?
16:32:48 <fizzie> Maybe 100 bytes is just SO MUCH DATA.
16:34:30 <fizzie> Oh! It's a warning, and it's the path name itself.
16:34:44 <fizzie> (I was trying to tar through a thing that flattens stdout and stderr.)
16:35:29 <fizzie> (This is some sort of a toybox tar, not a real tar.)
16:40:58 <fizzie> Hmp. Even with 2>/dev/null it just silently stops at some point.
16:44:18 <fizzie> Okay, for toybox tar apparently long filenames are just a fatal problem. Had to remove the file, and now it keeps going.
16:49:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46130&oldid=46112 * Rottytooth * (+10) /* C */ new language ↄ
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16:49:41 <izabera> you mean this? http://landley.net/toybox
16:51:46 <fizzie> Fortunately it was the only offending file on this phone.
16:59:32 <fizzie> Spoke too soon, there were more long paths. Meh.
16:59:43 <fizzie> (I'm trying to take a backup of sorts before wiping things.)
17:04:04 <fizzie> That's weird, the toybox github tar.c seems to handle long names.
17:04:21 <fizzie> if (strlen(hname) > sizeof(hdr.name)) write_longname(...);
17:04:34 <fizzie> Maybe the version on the phone is just old.
17:10:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ↄ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46131 * Rottytooth * (+1064) new language -- here are the basics, more to come
17:11:30 <lambdabot> ENZV 091650Z 08010KT 9999 SCT042 BKN064 01/M07 Q0997 NOSIG
17:13:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rottytooth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46132&oldid=42545 * Rottytooth * (+10) adding ↄ
17:13:07 <Taneb> Not happy with my esolang page's colour scheme
17:13:07 <Taneb> https://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/esolangs.html
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17:14:02 <haavard> Try switching the background blue and foreground blue
17:14:02 <int-e> at least it's not red on green
17:15:22 <Taneb> haavard: that's a bit better (just looking at it locally) but I'm still not 100%
17:16:41 <haavard> I'm horrible at design, which is why my personal site has basically no styling
17:17:08 <int-e> my cloud at cost server is getting ridiculously many i/o errors
17:18:42 <fizzie> int-e: The esolangs.org one keeps getting these "BUG: soft lockup - CPU#2 stuck for 22s! [kworker/2:0:17907]" things.
17:20:33 <int-e> well mine keeps remounting the root fs read-only...
17:21:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ↄ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46133&oldid=46131 * Rottytooth * (-85) removed redundant line
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17:22:57 <fizzie> Also rings a bell, I wonder if there were similar problems with the esolangs one early on.
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17:51:40 <fizzie> Mm. Well, the binary on the phone has a tar.
17:51:57 <fizzie> Probably something custom, then.
17:54:28 <fizzie> Hm, I'unno. There's just the same toys/pending/tar in https://android.googlesource.com/platform/external/toybox/ as well.
17:55:59 <izabera> never seen it written like that
17:56:40 <fizzie> shell@shamu:/ $ toybox --version
17:57:08 <fizzie> https://android.googlesource.com/platform/external/toybox/+/c96e42498c99 looks as if it'd support long names.
17:57:27 <fizzie> I give up. I already wrote a shell oneliner to just pull each file individually without tarring them up.
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18:23:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[A programming language is a formal constructed language designed to communicate instructions to a machine, particularly a computer.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46134&oldid=42469 * Rottytooth * (-227) /* Overview */ simplifying this concept a bit
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18:32:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ↄ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46135&oldid=46133 * Rottytooth * (+26) clarifying valid / invalid program
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21:55:53 <vanila> thank ais523 for that one!
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21:56:05 <ais523> yep, that was one of my contributions
21:56:33 <ais523> I also playtested the TAS competition game
21:57:40 <ais523> if you try to evaluate the integral yourself, you'll see there's a joke hidden in the formula itself
21:58:00 <vanila> im not very good at integrrals..
21:58:05 <mauris> what was the integral?
21:58:13 <mauris> this is great BTW! nice work!
21:58:44 <ais523> mauris: it's a definite integral, unsurprisingly it has the same result as the question Brain Age was asking
21:59:23 <ais523> but the joke is that the thing underneath the integral sign is a bunch of complex trig that mostly cancels itself out
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22:03:20 <vanila> last year they broke out of an emulator from inside pokemen, then broke out further?? and piped twitch chat into the came itself by code execution
22:03:45 <vanila> this time i think it was just prepared not REAL twitch chat?
22:06:00 <vanila> oh they broke out of pokemon then out of emulator
22:08:01 <vanila> ais523, how come you know these people? do you make TASs as well?
22:08:17 <ais523> vanila: I've been workign on a NetHack TAS for /years/
22:08:25 <ais523> so has dwangoAC (the commentator at the event)
22:08:50 <ais523> as for the breaking out of pokémon then out of sgb, that was my idea (then lots of other people put in the work to make it actually happen)
22:09:04 <vanila> that was such an incredible thing to see
22:09:40 <vanila> right nwo is this the REAL twitch chat?
22:09:46 <vanila> or is just a saved picture
22:11:31 <ais523> they're certainly technically capable of making it the real twitch chat though
22:15:02 <vanila> do you have a blog ais523?
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22:15:15 <ais523> vanila: yes but it's about NetHack, rather than about things generally
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22:15:30 <ais523> vanila: http://nethack4.org/blog/ if you're interested
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22:28:54 <vanila> are you watching thins?
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22:29:08 <b_jonas> I'm watching videos of older events though
22:29:21 <b_jonas> Super Metroid 2p one controller currently
22:29:44 <b_jonas> I've watched some other runs too
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22:30:05 <b_jonas> Spelunky, Crypt of the Necrodancer, both Super Monkey Ball games
22:30:05 <coppro> next up is the mystery tas
22:30:41 <b_jonas> Oh, and the classic Legend of Zelda too
22:31:04 <b_jonas> I'll be interested in the 3d Zelda games, but I'll have to watch them later when they make better encodes of them
22:31:11 <b_jonas> the current ones are unwatchable
22:31:43 <coppro> is your quality just low?
22:31:52 <b_jonas> coppro: no, but the sound is echoing
22:31:54 <coppro> twitch vods let you pick the quality
22:32:09 <b_jonas> but the organizers said it's fixable and they'll fix it later
22:33:20 <b_jonas> I'm also be interested about CapnClever's run of Prince of Persia, and in both runs of Mhmd_FVC
22:36:08 <b_jonas> the super mario 64, the mario maker, the mario kart, the final ones (tasbot block, super metroid reverse boss order, probably Zelda Link to the Past reverse boss order)
22:36:21 <b_jonas> and maybe some of the games I don't know if you can help which ones I'll like
22:36:27 <FireFly> vanila: I think it was the real Twitch chat
22:36:36 <b_jonas> oh, pokémon yellow definitely
22:36:42 <b_jonas> there's a lot to watch this year
22:36:44 <vanila> pokémon yellow was really nice
22:36:58 <b_jonas> is the Mario Maker video out yet, and is it echoy too?
22:36:59 <FireFly> The blue glitch exhibition after that too
22:37:01 <coppro> this year's marathon was great
22:37:05 <coppro> last year, not as good
22:37:08 <FireFly> b_jonas: I think they fixed the echo thing
22:37:12 <coppro> I think this might beat 2014
22:37:17 <coppro> although lack of bonus stream makes me sad
22:37:20 <b_jonas> FireFly: they said it's fixable in re-encodes
22:37:43 <b_jonas> I'll have to watch some of the 2d mario games as well (besides mario maker)
22:37:51 <FireFly> Did you catch mario maker live?
22:38:02 <b_jonas> I didn't watch anything live, and I'm not going to
22:38:29 <b_jonas> I really recommend watching the Crypt of the Necrodancer run, it was the best among the few I've seen so far
22:38:31 <FireFly> The Transformers run was great too btw
22:38:46 <b_jonas> but there's lots of good things to watch
22:38:48 <FireFly> I haven't played that game, is it a good watch regardless?
22:38:55 <FireFly> I should watch taht I guess
22:38:57 <b_jonas> I haven't played it either
22:39:05 <coppro> Metroid Prime is pretty sweet
22:39:15 <coppro> perennial favourite of mine
22:39:49 <b_jonas> FireFly: the interesting part is that they're playing it with a really difficult character, so basically extra hard mode. watch it with commentary
22:40:15 <b_jonas> coppro: I don't like Metroid Prime because it's one of those fast-paced 3d games that I really can't follow
22:40:29 <vanila> there was 1 great bit in the metroid prrime run
22:40:39 <b_jonas> I have that problem with most of the fast-paced first-person shooters too
22:40:42 <vanila> he spun the ball up so fast that it divided by zero and shot him through walls into another world
22:40:55 <coppro> vanila: it's not a divide by 0, it's an infinity overflow
22:40:58 <vanila> i didn't watch more than it
22:40:59 <b_jonas> I can still enjoy the slower 3d games like GTA Vice City
22:41:25 <b_jonas> or Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask
22:42:03 <b_jonas> I also don't much enjoy portal speedruns, they're both fast 3d and have CRAZY geometry with all the portals
22:42:10 <b_jonas> so I can't follow anything of what happens
22:42:27 <vanila> I like the noneuclidean aspect of portal
22:42:44 <b_jonas> vanila: I can understand liking it if you play it slowly
22:42:56 <b_jonas> but the speedruns are way to fast and do lots of impossible things
22:42:56 <vanila> it's just cool because it's unusual
22:43:01 <coppro> prime only has one silly movement trick
22:43:06 <vanila> oh yeha i haven't seen the speedrun
22:43:19 <vanila> i thought they cheated in portal2
22:43:19 <b_jonas> I've tried to watch the portal 2 speedruns in earlier agdq
22:43:21 <vanila> so i didn't bother watching it
22:43:31 <vanila> noclip cheat or something
22:43:52 <coppro> it's a bit sad that in a prime speedrun, you move sideways so you don't see a lot of the crazy sideways jumps
22:44:39 <b_jonas> coppro: there's some backwards and sideways movement in the Zelda 3d runs too, but they're easier to follow
22:50:10 <b_jonas> Is there a separate kill/save pool for the Super Metroid 2p 1c and for the Super Metroid reverse boss order?
22:52:33 <b_jonas> and this Super Metroid 2p 1c is hilarious
22:56:03 <fizzie> I completely forgot I was supposed to be looking at this stuff.
22:56:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: you don't have to. just watch the videos later at any time conveniently and seekable,
22:56:50 <b_jonas> much better than trying to watch live
22:57:24 <fizzie> But it's Not The Same.
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23:08:18 <FireFly> Yeah, the Super Metroid 2p1c was really entertaining too
23:09:51 <b_jonas> Super Metroid is a great game to speedrun
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23:54:25 <oerjan> yesterday was apparently the coldest january day in trondheim in six years.
00:08:28 <b_jonas> oh, CapnClever was running the much shorter DOS version of Prince of Persia this year? that will be interesting
00:08:41 <b_jonas> see, this is why I wish they put the console name in the schedule
00:15:11 <haavard> Please make it not so cold
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00:16:44 <b_jonas> I never knew about that skip on level 5
00:18:01 <b_jonas> vanila: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuJjyN1ukjM&index=58&list=PLz8YL4HVC87VqROwl3mdpVypnv2SXtGm_
00:23:09 <b_jonas> hehe, as I was watching it, I was wondering why he didn't go up on the right extreme of level 8, then realized, oh right, it's a speedrun, he doesn't need the extra life
00:24:28 <b_jonas> it's a pity some pixels are cropped from the screen on the right and on the bottom
00:24:34 <b_jonas> I'd like to see all the pixels
00:27:02 <b_jonas> I hope he's going to do the skip on level 12
00:29:37 <vanila> b_jonas, i used to play this game as kid i was realy suprised when i found SNES version has new levels
00:29:53 <b_jonas> the SNES version is a lot bigger, yes
00:30:03 <b_jonas> I played the DOS version a lot, and still occasionally replay it
00:30:35 <b_jonas> yep, he does do the skip on level 12
00:31:31 <vanila> prince of persia 2 is really great as well
00:31:52 <vanila> the sword fighting is great because you can actually enjoy a fight, it's not like gamse where just run pu and hit hit hit until they die
00:32:09 <b_jonas> I didn't play prince of persia much
00:32:20 <b_jonas> I didn't play prince of persia 2 much
00:34:25 <vanila> i would recommend it, it's very interesting
00:34:43 <vanila> i actually want to play them both through now
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00:36:41 <b_jonas> vanila: go on. I won't play prince 2, but if you want, feel free
00:37:18 <b_jonas> the few times I tried it, I didn't like it much
00:37:28 <vanila> anwyay i cant play them
00:37:44 <vanila> it hurts my hands/arms too much
00:37:59 <vanila> ill need a different input device if i want ot play a game
00:38:05 <vanila> i havent worked out a good solution yet
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00:52:19 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CJtphqFSR0
01:01:29 <Taneb> https://www.barrucadu.co.uk/posts/2016-01-09-c-is-not-turing-complete.html
01:02:43 <zzo38> People argue about if C is Turing complete or not
01:03:30 <vanila> my view: its not TC without IO, with IO acting as a tape you can obviously implement any turing machine [supposing the IO really acts as a tape]
01:04:47 <\oren\> roight, with fseek(SEEK_CUR
01:07:12 <pikhq> Nope. File sizes are limited.
01:07:35 <\oren\> pikhq: what if I fopen the tape drive device?
01:07:51 <pikhq> (*all* file offsets are representable within C itself)
01:08:15 <pikhq> \oren\: Okay, what if I take a FSM and glue it to an infinite tape? :P
01:08:40 <zzo38> Are you allowed to rewind stdin if it is a tape?
01:09:14 <pikhq> ... Also, tape device offsets are *also* limited.
01:09:30 <\oren\> I'm not aware of a limitation syaing anywhere you can fseek to you can be ftold?
01:10:00 * Sgeo_ wonders what living in Tel Aviv is like compared to NYC and Silicon Valley
01:11:21 <\oren\> that is, suppose X is the largest off_t. if you do fseek(SEEK_SET,X); fseek(SEEK_SET,X); then won't you have fsought to a position of 2X, unrepresentable as off_t?
01:11:58 <\oren\> er, forgot to pass in the file to fseek. whatever, you get the idea
01:16:30 <\oren\> `cc int main(){ FILE *f=fopen("/dev/null","r+"); fseek(f,SEEK_CUR,~0); fseek(f,SEEK_CUR,~0); printf("%ld",ftell(f));}
01:16:55 <HackEgo> <stdin>: In function ‘main’: \ <stdin>:1:13: error: unknown type name ‘FILE’ \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
01:17:15 <\oren\> `cc #include "stdio.h"\n int main(){ FILE *f=fopen("/dev/null","r+"); fseek(f,SEEK_CUR,~0); fseek(f,SEEK_CUR,~0); printf("%ld",ftell(f));}
01:18:11 <\oren\> `cc #include "stdio.h"\n int main(){ FILE *f=fopen("/dev/null","r+"); fseek(f,SEEK_CUR,~0>>1); fseek(f,SEEK_CUR,~0>>1); printf("%ld",ftell(f));}
01:18:24 <\oren\> `cc #include "stdio.h"\n int main(){ FILE *f=fopen("/dev/null","r+"); fseek(f,SEEK_CUR,(~0)>>1); fseek(f,SEEK_CUR,(~0)>>1); printf("%ld",ftell(f));}
01:19:47 <\oren\> `cc #include "stdio.h"\n int main(){ FILE *f=fopen("/dev/null","r+"); fseek(f,SEEK_CUR,1); fseek(f,SEEK_CUR,1); printf("%ld",ftell(f));}
01:20:16 <\oren\> apparently on /dev/null your position is locked to zero
01:23:44 <\oren\> the C standard doesn't define any errors for fseek, only for ftell
01:26:44 <\oren\> oh. it can retrun nonzero "of the requst can't be satisfied"
01:27:54 <\oren\> but that still is implementation defined
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01:28:38 <\oren\> So I guess the final conclusion is that fseek *can* allow C to be turing complete, but doesn't have to.
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01:53:11 <boily> he\\oren\! still fonting?
01:53:53 <boily> meanwhile, if y'all guys could answer that thing I made, it'd be nice: https://www.reddit.com/r/SampleSize/comments/4099j8/casual_delicacies_everyone/
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02:04:42 <boily> \oren\: could you thicken 性 twh
02:05:21 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
02:05:31 <HackEgo> A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
02:06:17 <HackEgo> The magic was in you all along.
02:06:24 <tswett> `? Magic: the Gathering
02:06:25 <HackEgo> Magic: the Gathering? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:15:29 <boily> tswellott. not all TLAs are in the wisdom hth
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02:19:47 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 oerjan oerjan
02:23:21 <zzo38> You should try to make more comment/complaint of my own custom Magic: the Gathering cards, and also the puzzle
02:23:36 <shachaf> But I'd have to make an account for that.
02:23:54 <shachaf> And I don't like MD5, or even HTTP authentication.
02:26:28 <zzo38> I know, MD5 isn't very good, but this HTTP authentication is better than the other way
02:26:42 <shachaf> What's the other way? Cookies?
02:27:04 <zzo38> I think there are many other ways
02:27:55 <shachaf> Maybe you should make registration and accounts optional.
02:28:36 <zzo38> This account does not require any email or date or birth
02:29:41 <zzo38> However at least now it can also be done by form if you have JavaScripts.
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02:30:54 <shachaf> What do I do with the form?
02:31:52 <zzo38> Write the result to me by the private message, and then I can approve the account.
02:33:33 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to design a C-level programming language that uses more mathematical programming :)
02:34:29 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: OK, how will it compile?
02:35:57 <oerjan> the question does not compile.
02:36:16 <zzo38> I mean do you intend to compile into native codes and if so how the function that return the other function is compile to be optimized?
02:36:52 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Similarly to Haskell. I do plan to compile.
02:38:09 <oerjan> similarly to haskell, so at least 3 intermediate languages.
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02:49:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Are there any tutorials on the Interwebz about /designing/ programming languages that you know of?
02:49:34 <oerjan> but only because i'm too lazy to know
02:50:23 <boily> according to /r/mapporn, half of Norwegian population lives in the blue areas: http://i.imgur.com/nZfwf1m.png
02:52:20 <oerjan> well that does seem to include our major cities
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02:53:46 * oerjan is slightly surprised by the big blob a bit above the middle
02:54:47 <oerjan> that's close to where i'm from, and i didn't think it was that densely populated...
02:57:01 <HackEgo> Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
02:57:25 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/famous/& mysterious/' wisdom/oerjan
02:57:52 <FireFly> If I recall correctly, the latitude where half of Sweden's population is north of it and half south of it is slightly /south/ of Stockholm
02:57:59 <FireFly> which says something about the population skew
02:58:31 <shachaf> what do you have all the rest for then twh
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03:00:13 <oerjan> or in norway's case, also rock
03:00:57 <FireFly> Also space research, or at least that's what I associate Kiruna with
03:01:22 <oerjan> they have plenty of space there
03:01:38 <zzo38> shachaf: Now do you understand this form?
03:01:41 <ridemyponey> did you know sweden was one of the first countries to approve palestine's status as a state? also.. ingrid bergman.. and her daughter :v and of course drew berrymore. i love sweden. but i don't like oerjan.
03:01:49 <HackEgo> http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php
03:02:09 <shachaf> zzo38: I understand the form but I don't want to make an account.
03:02:16 <shachaf> If you made a way to comment without an account, though...
03:02:37 <FireFly> Kiruna municipality is in fact the least population-dense one
03:02:42 <zzo38> You want to post a comment without account?
03:03:15 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
03:04:15 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*52716a32@*.com/ip.82.113.106.50.
03:04:15 -!- oerjan has kicked ridemyponey Happy new year, hagb4rd.
03:04:58 <zzo38> I can try to think of it but I want to avoid the spam message too much
03:05:16 <shachaf> Are people trying to spam your site?
03:05:25 <shachaf> Or only automated bots that try to spam every site?
03:05:44 <shachaf> You could add a moderation feature whereby comments get submitted to you for approval before they're posted.
03:06:08 <zzo38> No, I mean I do not want to be spam to myself.
03:06:25 <zzo38> Therefore moderation feature even result in they still have to send the message to me at first
03:06:38 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
03:06:49 <zzo38> And would still require deleted if the message is wrong, just the same way.
03:06:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: an old troll who keeps returning occasionally
03:07:05 <zzo38> I do not want it to be spam by manually either. But I do want to allow to post even if you use curl instead of use web browser softwaer if you want to, too.
03:09:48 <shachaf> `` egrep 'by \w+ly' quotes
03:09:49 <HackEgo> <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb's been hit by melancholy. <Phantom_Hoover> He didn't have any friends, fortunatel.y \ <itidus20> what is nice about a pebble is that you can process it with your brain as a numbe
03:10:08 <shachaf> zzo38: I would play both of those games.
03:10:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: in fact half the reason he's permanently banned is that he's consistently tried to sneak back while still banned
03:14:03 <shachaf> zzo38: I like Wall of Learning.
03:14:23 <shachaf> Do you know if there's any official card with a similar effect?
03:32:06 <zzo38> OK, you can now post comments anonymously too. See the HTML source of the "Info" page for details.
03:33:48 <shachaf> Oh, but you still need to use HTTP authentication?
03:34:25 <shachaf> Is there a place I can test commenting?
03:34:34 <shachaf> I don't want to mess up the comments page of a real card.
03:34:43 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php?do=card&id=%2104+Miscellaneous
03:35:14 <zzo38> It just says "Miscellaneous", although that is what I used to test it, and I will delete test comments from there too.
03:35:41 <shachaf> "The text is too short/long; please try again."
03:35:45 <shachaf> What are the length limits?
03:36:44 <zzo38> The limits are 8 to 10000
03:55:09 <mauris> this has all been sonic 3 music vanila
03:55:29 <zzo38> shachaf: If you are having a trouble with it then please tell me so
04:19:17 <\oren\> http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2006/as-sa/97-550/vignettes/img/map-2006-pop-density-canada-sz01-en.gif
04:20:35 <\oren\> as you can see, most canadians would take 2 hours or less to drive to America
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04:42:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ↄ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46136&oldid=46135 * Rottytooth * (+349) edited for clarity
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05:45:41 <zzo38> See if the card game can be made which resembles a Pokemon battle simulator (not the game of Pokemon card, which is an entirely different game), I have some ideas such as using square cards which can be placed in four possible orientations and opponent will not see what card it is until exposed
05:56:56 <shachaf> I don't know how a Pokémon battle simulator works.
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06:32:25 <zzo38> Neither do I, but I think my brother does
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08:24:59 <hppavilion[1]> "All language reduces to a finite string of Hitlers"
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09:29:13 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.7 Is this correct?
09:31:01 <myname> hppavilion[1]: which one?
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11:35:47 <izabera> https://arin.ga/YocMZj/raw need some help to understand this
11:36:21 <izabera> why can i change the O_APPEND flag?
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12:07:45 <b_jonas> Mario Maker shows some sort of preview image of the levels in the level select screen? How is it a blind race then?
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12:48:57 <fizzie> izabera: I assume it would mean enabling/disabling the things the O_APPEND flag normally does, i.e. the behavior that, before every write, the write position is set to the end of the file.
12:50:07 <izabera> i thought all it did was to seek to the end of file when opening
12:50:32 <fizzie> No, it's on every write. (You can move around and read from other locations if it's also open for reading, though.)
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12:56:27 <deltab> note that NFS doesn't fully support the O_APPEND flag: it'll read the size and seek there, but something else could write there at the same time and get overwritten
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13:01:07 <deltab> (see http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/natty/man1/safecat.1.html for an alternative)
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13:21:09 <Laivos> may the force be with you
13:23:20 <Laivos> you stay here for a long time, and nobody talk with nobody
13:24:38 <Laivos> Builders of the new world
13:30:38 <lambdabot> CYUL 101300Z 11007KT 15SM FEW070 BKN110 OVC200 04/01 A2983 RMK AC1AC6CI1 SLP104
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13:38:41 <lambdabot> ENZV 101320Z 11019KT 9999 -RASN FEW013 BKN090 03/M01 Q0984 TEMPO 4000 -SN BKN014
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13:38:53 <haavard> RASN.. that's a good combo
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13:44:37 <b_jonas> I'm watching more of AGDQ now
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14:00:32 <lambdabot> LOWI 101350Z 16004KT 120V190 9999 FEW008 SCT012 05/03 Q1000 NOSIG
14:01:23 <HackEgo> welcome.eo/Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-on: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
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14:59:18 <b_jonas> Sadly, the GTA 3 run is a bit disappointing. Adam_ak's commentary is much better than this one.
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15:56:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46137&oldid=46127 * Rdebath * (+601) Nope, don't think so.
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16:17:47 <izabera> i'm w/ my dad and his friends
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16:47:26 <APic> WHAT YOU SAY !!
16:54:22 <HackEgo> 447) <Phantom_Hoover> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime.
17:10:17 <HackEgo> for further details for futher details./See `? for further details for futher details.
17:10:28 <HackEgo> california/California is pronounced "Caliphate-ornery-I-A"
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17:14:44 <b_jonas> At AGDQ, the Kaizo Mario run is awesome
17:35:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kai]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46138&oldid=21090 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) dead link
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17:52:44 <myname> does anybody know of any df like for android?
17:57:21 <HackEgo> *poof* <Phantom_Hoover> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime.
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18:39:58 <ais523> :t (if x == 0 then x else x)
18:40:11 <ais523> :t \x -> (if x == 0 then x else x)
18:40:33 <ais523> :t (\x -> (if x == 0 then x else x)) (0==)
18:40:34 <lambdabot> (Eq a, Eq (a -> Bool), Num a, Num (a -> Bool)) => a -> Bool
18:40:41 <ais523> :t (\x -> (x==0)) (0==)
18:40:43 <lambdabot> (maybe you haven't applied enough arguments to a function?)
18:41:02 <ais523> :t (\x -> (if x==0 then 1 else 2)) (0==)
18:41:04 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Eq (a0 -> Bool)) arising from a use of ‘==’
18:41:04 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: Num a => a at <interactive>:1:1
18:41:15 <ais523> :t (\x -> (if x == 0 then x else x)) (0==)
18:41:17 <lambdabot> (Eq a, Eq (a -> Bool), Num a, Num (a -> Bool)) => a -> Bool
18:41:21 <ais523> :t (\x -> (if x == 0 then 1 else 2)) (0==)
18:41:23 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Eq (a0 -> Bool)) arising from a use of ‘==’
18:41:23 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: Num a => a at <interactive>:1:1
18:41:55 <ais523> :t (\x -> (if x == 0 then (0==) else (0==))) (0==)
18:41:57 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Eq (a0 -> Bool)) arising from a use of ‘==’
18:41:57 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: (Eq a, Num a) => a -> Bool
18:42:11 <ais523> :t (if (0==) == 0 then (0==) else (0==))
18:42:13 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Num a0) arising from the literal ‘0’
18:42:13 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: (Eq a, Num a) => a -> Bool
18:43:41 <ais523> ( :t (\x -> (if x == 0 then x else x)) (0==)
18:43:41 <idris-bot> (input):1:8: error: expected: ",",
18:43:41 <idris-bot> :t (\x -> (if x == 0 then x else x)) (0==)<EOF>
18:43:43 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
18:43:49 <ais523> ( :t (\x => (if x == 0 then x else x)) (0==)
18:43:55 <idris-bot> Can't resolve type class Num (Integer -> Bool)
18:44:01 <Xe> idris is an esoteric language now?
18:44:13 <ais523> Xe: not /really/ but it appeals to esolangers
18:44:19 <ais523> it's in the same category as Haskell in that respect
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19:33:06 <J_Arcane> Is there a traditional behavior expected for improperly matched [] in brainfuck?
19:33:26 <J_Arcane> Ie, if I hit a second [ before a ].
19:33:34 <J_Arcane> Should my interpreter check for that?
19:33:42 <zzo38> That is OK; it is nested loop
19:34:55 <J_Arcane> Hmm. I guess what I'm not clear on is how matching works then. In other words, is it just safe to look for the next ] and ignore anything else we find along the way.
19:35:26 <mauris> [>+[>+]>+] or something is properly matched
19:36:02 <mauris> just match the brackets in the only way that makes sense?
19:36:40 <mauris> if there are more [s than ]s, or vice versa, throw an error. if there is a ] that doesn't correspond to any [, do the same
19:36:49 <zzo38> But if there is a [ without ] afterword, or extra ] then it is error, although as an extension you may use a mismatched ] to begin the initial input of the program, before reading user input.
19:37:22 <zzo38> (Some implementations use ! to begin initial input instead, although neither is standard brainfuck.)
19:39:57 <J_Arcane> this is what I get for trying to implement a language I don't actually know.
19:41:01 <J_Arcane> so dumb question time: in [>+[>+]>+],. does the first [ need to match to the first ] or the last one?
19:41:17 <zzo38> The first [ matches the last ]
19:41:22 <zzo38> And the inner [ matches the inner ]
19:42:06 <J_Arcane> yeah. OK. So I'll need to be cleverer about following loops. That's what I needed.
19:44:54 <myname> how would anything else make any sense?
19:45:25 <myname> if the first [ would match the first ], the inner loop would have to go outside the outer loop and then back in
19:47:10 <myname> i am not sure what is more interesting: why you don't know bf or why you implement it if you don't know it
19:53:04 <b_jonas> myname: um, it could do gotos anywhere.
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19:57:35 <myname> b_jonas: how does that contradict anything i said?
19:59:54 <J_Arcane> b_jonas: exactly I expected a more imperative, less intelligent behavior: ie. it would simply scan for the next opposite symbol.
20:00:49 <J_Arcane> And to answer the question of "why": because I was bored, and it occurred I had some novel features in Heresy that might make it fun to implement.
20:01:11 <myname> how about implementing eodermdrome?
20:01:39 <J_Arcane> BF is superficially similar to a simpler example I was reviewing from a code exercise I'd done.
20:02:27 <myname> implementing bf is pretty borong, unless done in any weird or unfit language
20:02:48 <J_Arcane> Heresy is a slightly weird, possibly unfit language of my own devising, so that was also a motivation really.
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20:06:05 <zzo38> How good do you know rules of Magic: the Gathering do you know how to help me with this? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.7
20:07:07 <zzo38> What exactly happens? (For example, is there ever a card in any graveyard face-down or with no characteristics?)
20:07:24 <ais523> I think a card can only be in a graveyard face-down during the casting of a spell
20:07:35 <ais523> and automatically turns face-up and regains its characteristics when the spell finishes casting
20:08:20 <b_jonas> (or during activating an ability)
20:08:55 <zzo38> I know that is true in the hand if the card is drawn (rule 401.5), and that seems to be what is important for Anafenza's replacement effect.
20:09:25 <zzo38> Does it reset when it is actually in the graveyard though, and furthermore, is this game position winnable?
20:15:00 <zzo38> So do either of you know how these cards will interact in this game position?
20:23:04 <lambdabot> ENGM 101950Z 02007KT 2400 -SN BR SCT011 BKN013 M05/M06 Q0996 TEMPO 1000 SN VV003
20:27:24 <lambdabot> CYUL 102000Z 06013KT 15SM FEW045 BKN080 BKN120 06/03 A2926 RMK SC1AC5AC1 PRESFR SLP910
20:27:53 <boily> it's raining. stop lying, you sleazy airport weather report guy.
20:28:20 * boily is tempted to write a strongly worded letter to Aéroports de Montréal.
20:29:44 <haavard> My friend is stuck at ENGM because his flight was cancelled. Doesn't look like it's the weather, though
20:35:17 <lambdabot> CYYZ 102020Z 29020G28KT 2SM -SN SCT013 OVC025 01/M01 A2915 RMK SN2SF2NS4 PRESRR SLP877
20:39:40 <hppavilion[1]> {0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7} >< {(+), (-), (*), (/)} forms modular arithmetic (specifically, mod 8)
20:40:30 <myname> so, it is just (Z_8, +, *)?
20:42:07 <zzo38> You are not really describing what the "Together with" operator is going to do very precisely?
20:43:07 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It is really just a placeholder for an operator to dynamically create rings/groups/fields/magmas/categories/ordered things/etc
20:44:11 <myname> how do you specify anytjing in it? like, what is 1 p 2?
20:44:32 <zzo38> boily: Maybe you should just telephone them to make an inquiry?
20:44:54 <myname> how do i know if it is F_8 or F__2 x F_2 x F_2?
20:47:46 <hppavilion[1]> It's a general idea more than a fixedly-defined operator
20:48:06 <myname> how is the operator any different than writing the respective tuple?
20:49:11 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I don't know, really. It's good for dynamically creating mathematical structures, at least.
20:49:55 <myname> how do you "create a structure" without defining how to calculate in it
20:49:59 <hppavilion[1]> What weird types of OO could there be? I'm currently catalogueing OO models and have Classes, Prototypes, and Groups (which really encompass rings and algebras and fields and such)
20:50:18 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I'm clueless, OK? It was just a fleeting thought that I didn't think much about
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21:11:38 <vanila> b-jonas, i watched that prince of ppersia run and it was amazing thanks for recommending it!
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21:24:13 <b_jonas> vanila: had you known of that skip on level 5? that was new to me
21:25:48 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps a programming language that is SO (Subject-Oriented) instead of OO (Object-Oriented)?
21:27:02 <vanila> I didn't know any of it!
21:27:17 <vanila> except buffering inputs i g uess
21:31:07 <b_jonas> that skip is indeed possible by the way, even with my lame skills I could replicate it, although in a much slower way
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21:46:39 <zzo38> You have not verified my puzzle (as far as I can tell), although you have answered some questions, the answers which do not however invalidate it.
21:47:45 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.7
21:48:08 <zzo38> (There is also puzzle.6 I don't know if you have seen that one either?)
21:49:17 <haavard> I haven't gotten around to give any of them serious thought, to be honest
21:49:26 <haavard> Except the first one, but I'm probably wrong about my answer
21:49:53 <zzo38> What is your answer though?
21:51:44 <zzo38> Which cards do you think could be used though?
21:53:05 <haavard> I think you could just attack with Leviathan and Bloodrush the Pyrewild Shaman for the win
21:55:13 <haavard> I think I see why that doesn't work now
21:55:37 <zzo38> You need mana to do that!
21:56:16 <haavard> Yeah, the Leviathan trigger happens before you get the change to bloodrush
21:56:50 <haavard> That's why I figured my answer was wrong, it was too stupid
21:57:21 <zzo38> Leviathan's only triggered ability applies during your upkeep.
21:57:28 <haavard> I feel like printing out proxies of the board state and every card in The Dark would help solving this :P
21:57:37 <zzo38> You may mean the cost
21:57:45 <haavard> Right, I meant the attack cost
21:58:24 <haavard> And you can't float the mana for bloodrush, because of reasons
21:58:43 <haavard> (I'd look in the comprehensive rules but it's too late to bother)
21:59:47 <haavard> Surely it's not as bad as Panglacial Wurm
22:00:52 <zzo38> haavard: I count four cards in The Dark that would give you enough mana to bloodrush (there are also others that can win in other ways such as attacking)
22:02:04 <zzo38> My puzzle.7 does include Panglacial Wurm, but you can notice that none of the other cards in the puzzle say to search your library anyways.
22:02:33 <b_jonas> haavard: no, it's not that Leviathan itself is bad, it's just that I remember zzo38's puzzle with a Leviathan, and I suspect this is the same one
22:02:55 <zzo38> That is the "first one" that haavard is refering to
22:02:56 <haavard> zzo38: is the wurm a red herring, then?
22:03:41 <zzo38> haavard: No, it is a green wurm
22:04:22 <b_jonas> which asks to count possible cards from The Dark that let you win the game, which is crazy because I know very little about the early sets.
22:05:06 <zzo38> You can also look at my puzzle.6 and puzzle.7 which are the newest ones
22:05:11 <b_jonas> I don't even have any cards from them, since they were printed in such a low number of copies
22:05:59 <haavard> I don't think The Dark was such a low print run
22:06:08 <b_jonas> oh, puzzle.6 is the one with Artificial Evolution and Fork
22:07:05 <zzo38> I counted thirteen cards as the answer to puzzle.1, six of which involve having enough mana to use bloodrush
22:08:24 <b_jonas> haavard: I don't know, but I believe I have no cards at all from the early expansions (and also from the early core sets)
22:09:00 <zzo38> I have a book with all of the old cards, and there is also Gatherer and others to find the cards on
22:09:02 <b_jonas> whereas I have at least a few cards from every expert set starting from Mirage and from every core set starting from Revised
22:09:23 <zzo38> (I do not have any cards though)
22:09:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, there's Gatherer, http://magiccards.info/ , yawgatog's list, and at some point I used to have a list I made myself but since they made the new Gatherer I haven't fixed it
22:10:10 <b_jonas> it's a bit tricky because many lists get the split cards, flip cards, and two-faced cards wrong
22:10:32 <b_jonas> even the old Gatherer used to
22:10:44 <b_jonas> the new one _almost_ gets them correctly, except not quite
22:12:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: anyway, as for puzzle.6, that looks like the same one that you told about in the channel, apparently before you write it up
22:12:18 <b_jonas> so I beleive I know the solution
22:12:58 <b_jonas> although this is a more complicated versino of it
22:15:02 <zzo38> I would want SQLite extension which can access those services, to figure out which is best for the query and how to query the server in the optimal way to do what the user has requested.
22:15:30 <haavard> What does that have to do with SQLite?
22:16:08 <zzo38> As a virtual table
22:16:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: Yawgatog's is probably the best.
22:16:38 <b_jonas> is the setfaq out yet for the latest set?
22:16:44 <zzo38> Did you look at my puzzle.7 yet though?
22:16:55 <zzo38> I don't know if the setfaq is out yet
22:17:19 <b_jonas> I'm too tired to solve a new puzzle now. It has panglacial wurm in it so it's scary.
22:17:59 <b_jonas> also Laboratory Maniac, so it might be connected to what we talked about
22:18:17 <b_jonas> but if you say there's no way to search library in it, then I wonder how the panglacial is relevant
22:18:48 <b_jonas> surely you won't put Panglacial Wurm in it just to get a big wurm with trample, there's tons of other wurms and beasts and treefolk
22:18:59 <b_jonas> (although the treefolk don't have trample, I think)
22:19:25 <b_jonas> oh right! Oakgnarl Warrior has trample. I should have remembered that, I like that card
22:19:41 <b_jonas> also several other treefolks
22:19:41 <zzo38> It is still a 9/5 green Wurm creature with trample for {5GG}
22:20:15 <haavard> Dies to bolt + shock, unplayable
22:21:00 <b_jonas> Chromatic Sphere, Skirge Familiar, Laboratory Maniac, Lhurgoyf, this starts to sounds like that thing we talked about with mana abilities
22:21:18 <b_jonas> now what's an Anafenza, the Foremost (/me checks)
22:21:36 <b_jonas> oh, it's one of _those_ replacement effects
22:36:58 <b_jonas> As for DOS Prince of Persia, there's some unfortunate implications when you think of that Mechner has made the realistic animations by filming his brother doing moves and then drawing them,
22:37:30 <b_jonas> but that the game shows both the hero and the guards get impaled on spikes and get chopped in half by choppers.
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22:55:17 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> "All language reduces to a finite string of Hitlers" <-- i sensed a great amount of conflation of meanings of the word "is" there. and an unfounded assumption that the result is an equivalence relation.
22:56:15 <hppavilion[1]> It's be more accurate to say "cat falls under the umbrella of cute"
22:56:36 <hppavilion[1]> So hitler and love are under the same umbrella, but are not the same.
22:57:01 <oerjan> your umbrella = set hth
22:57:10 <hppavilion[1]> So it's more like 7 trillion ambiguities that /could/ be resolved into a socially repulsive view
22:57:29 <hppavilion[1]> It can be represented as a set, but it isn't necessarily a set
22:57:42 <hppavilion[1]> "umbrella" is an umbrella term for anything that is equivalent to a set
23:00:08 <oerjan> also http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HitlerAteSugar (warning, evil link)
23:05:17 <boily> hellørjan. you are evil.
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23:10:37 <oerjan> "Bob: I want to commit genocide. Alice: The Nazis committed genocide. Bob: Really? What was I thinking? I can't believe I was going to do something the Nazis did."
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23:11:38 <oerjan> perhaps best ais523 didn't see that.
23:12:05 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, you cunningly say that right as I join
23:12:14 <ais523> are you trying to bait me into logreading?
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23:14:01 <oerjan> Elronnd: stop whistling in an apocalyptic booming tone twh
23:14:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of operators]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46139&oldid=45705 * Hppavilion1 * (-100) /* A note on types */ Changed to haskell, now fixing the article
23:15:55 <oerjan> ais523: well in my client it fit so nicely between your ping-out and your join
23:25:10 <FireFly> oerjan: an evil link from the evil twin?
23:26:23 <oerjan> that's not even worth a swat hth
23:28:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of operators]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46140&oldid=46139 * Hppavilion1 * (+1697) /* The operators */ Haskell-like types, some new operators
23:29:25 * boily lightly mapoles FireFly
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23:55:55 <lambdabot> CYUL 102331Z 21007G19KT 5SM -RA FEW014 OVC030 06/05 A2913 RMK SF2SC6 PRESRR SLP868
23:56:13 <boily> int-e: int-ello. lambdabot was dropped from stackage LTS-4.0 :(
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23:59:22 <oerjan> shocking. i think int-e isn't here at the moment...
00:05:03 <boily> @ask int-e could you please be there at the moment?
00:16:44 <quintopia> I managed to shave 30 bytes off the Purple Hello, World!
00:17:50 <HackEgo> Your famous mysterious evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
00:18:22 <oerjan> `learn metar is a service that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
00:18:23 <quintopia> you can never remember the word amortized? really?
00:18:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'metar': metar is a service that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
00:18:35 <oerjan> quintopia: almost never
00:18:44 <oerjan> haavard: that's a rumor spread by shachaf hth
00:18:58 <haavard> I can't believe you hate Roald Dahl.
00:19:08 <oerjan> mostly after he went around doing s/dal/dahl/ on half the stuff in haavard
00:19:16 <quintopia> oerjan: but it pretty much means exactly what you would think it would mean based on its roots in a given context...
00:20:15 <oerjan> quintopia: i'm really not sure what the roots are. a(b) + mort- ? so, from death? makes no sense to me.
00:20:44 <quintopia> a(d) + mort: to death, until death, until the end
00:21:05 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA! may the Shavings be Prosperous!
00:21:08 <oerjan> quintopia: anyway, the problem isn't remembering what it means, but the word itself hth
00:22:36 <quintopia> oerjan: anytime you find yourself wondering "what's that word that means averaging the number of steps over the program's entire run over this list, until the list is dead..." you'll just think "I'll just put together the latin roots for "to death" and use that. and you'll be right.
00:23:29 <\oren\> I just got Battalion wars II. I'm marveling at their idiotic attempt to make the "Solar Empire" look like China when it's clearly Japan.
00:25:14 <\oren\> they have characters named "Lei-Qo" and "A-Qira" which are obviously the common Japanese names "Reiko" and "Akira" disguised with hyphens and Q's. A Q in chinese pinyin is pronounced kinda like "ch" you idiots.
00:25:45 <oerjan> quintopia: it shouldn't be a(d), when the d is lost that duplicates the following consonant
00:26:01 <oerjan> now to actually look it up
00:26:21 <quintopia> oerjan: then you could read it as a + mort: "by death"...e.g. by the time it dies
00:26:28 <oerjan> darn i'm wrong, it got garble by going via french
00:27:01 <boily> quintopia: trying to identify an unknown pen I have: https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpens/comments/40dzp3/help_identifying_an_unknown_pen/
00:27:48 <boily> (also, listening to Japanese math-prog-space-rock with birds on album covers.)
00:27:58 <quintopia> oerjan: etymologically the CS meaning derives from the financial meaning: "to extinguish a debt", referring to the "time debt" an expensive op accrues
00:29:39 <oerjan> \oren\: no real asians were harmed during the production of this game hth
00:30:19 <boily> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tci6tGwZ8n4
00:30:59 <quintopia> i have to click a link? can't you just name the band?
00:31:18 <boily> "About Tess" is the band. that link points to their second album.
00:37:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kai]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46141&oldid=46138 * Oerjan * (+71) bold, Wayback
00:37:46 <quintopia> okay, i was getting worried about your description, but the rhythms just got complicated enough to qualify as mathcore
00:38:34 <boily> my ears are rhythmed.
00:39:08 <vanila> I tried listening to Oneohtrix Point Never but it sucked
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01:06:31 <haavard> I didn't think esolangs had to make sense
01:07:34 <hppavilion[1]> haavard: They have to be logical within the realm of reality
01:07:55 <boily> hppavellon[1]. you lack vision hth
01:08:09 <hppavilion[1]> haavard: You can't have a serious esolang (yes, I just used that phrase) that has the h instruction, which takes a program and tells whether it will halt
01:15:21 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of just one language, a massive barrage of DSLs and well-developed single-paradigm languages that you glue together, as opposed to a bajillion features in one language
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01:28:29 <zzo38> Yes you can put many program together by use of shell scripts, I design programs to work in that way so that it can be use in that way (whether script or interactively)
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02:03:34 <hppavilion[1]> So is the concept of a category theory-based programming language at all rational?
02:11:54 <hppavilion[1]> If I want to actually implement Set Language, or a derivative thereof, for my earlier-mentioned language conglomerate
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02:17:55 <Elronnd> bc is turing complete, right?
02:23:56 <oerjan> *mumble* *mumble* needs unbounded memory *mumble*
02:24:26 <izabera> it's a fixed precision calculator
02:25:28 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I think we've settled on "it's Turing-Complete if it would be if it had unbounded memory" as a slangy definition
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02:26:26 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: heresy! also bc may have unbounded integers, so it should be fine.
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02:30:41 <oerjan> so you're more of an idealist?
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02:35:23 * Elronnd points and curses at at the GOTO
02:35:24 <hppavilion[1]> I'm implementing Set Language and am stuck at testing if a set is a member of another set
02:36:01 * oerjan considers hppavilion[1] harmful
02:37:09 <hppavilion[1]> Unarmed programmers regularly get shot and killed by cops here in da programming hood
02:37:12 <oerjan> does Set Language have infinite sets? if so it's probably undecidable.
02:37:44 <oerjan> "am not racist" <-- self-refuting statement
02:38:06 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No, it's only self-refuting if postfixed with "but, "
02:38:48 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm pretty sure your usage is a simple grammatical inversion hth
02:39:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you just said the part after the but first hth
02:39:38 <oerjan> also i may not even have used the right word
02:39:50 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No, it's "I'm not racist, but..." that triggers the alarms
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02:41:55 <oerjan> istr that zermelo-fraenkel minus infinite sets is equivalent to peano arithmetic or thereabouts
02:42:08 <izabera> i'm not racist but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrmgwK5oPFM
02:42:16 <izabera> can't find a version without hardsubs
02:42:21 <oerjan> i.e. you can simulate finite sets with peano arithmetic
02:44:28 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/hates/mildly dislikes/' wisdom/oerjan
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02:46:14 <HackEgo> wisdom/monoidal category \ wisdom/welcome.eo \ wisdom/indexed monad \ wisdom/siberia \ wisdom/welcome.fi \ wisdom/selamlar \ wisdom/wercome \ wisdom/m–rdalsjökull \ wisdom/
02:46:41 <shachaf> `? m–rdalsjökull
02:46:43 <HackEgo> M–rdalsjökull is a draconic volcano harbouring the secret KATL base.
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02:54:13 <HackEgo> Your famous mysterious evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
02:54:37 <Elronnd> what should I define myself as
02:54:57 <oerjan> `learn Elronnd desperately wants this entry to say something.
02:55:01 <HackEgo> Learned 'elronnd': Elronnd desperately wants this entry to say something.
02:55:26 <Elronnd> my entry already said something
02:55:49 <oerjan> yes, and that was due to an act of despair hth
02:56:08 <Elronnd> that abbreviation is overused, hth
02:56:16 <HackEgo> shachaf shachaf oerjan izabera oerjan Roujo oerjan Roujo oerjan Roujo Roujo Roujo Roujo Roujo
02:56:23 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/oerjan
02:56:27 <HackEgo> shachaf shachaf oerjan shachaf oerjan shachaf oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull shachaf shachaf ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull oerjan FreeFull oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf shachaf nitia
02:56:32 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
02:56:45 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:59:00 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ ! \ ? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ benvenuto \ bf \ bienvenido \ bienvenue \ blessyou \ botsnack \ bseen \ buttsnack \ calc \ cAt \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ cc \ cde
02:59:20 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin
03:00:30 <oerjan> Elronnd: it's probably stuck somehow
03:01:13 <oerjan> Elronnd: no i mean the command, they're run in parallel
03:01:27 <Elronnd> `echo 'echo "=(/\_/\)="' > bin/^.^
03:01:29 <HackEgo> 'echo "=(/\_/\)="' > bin/^.^
03:01:40 <oerjan> ^.^ might time out without an argument, because it tries to read from stdin
03:02:22 <hppavilion[1]> Here's an idea for a cool λ-calcular construction that mayormaynot already exist
03:02:27 <oerjan> that echo didn't actually change any file
03:02:44 <hppavilion[1]> Where <n><list> returns the nth element of the list
03:04:09 <oerjan> you could define a number to do that, of course
03:04:30 <oerjan> almost no matter how lists are represented
03:05:10 <oerjan> and it would even be somewhat useable, i think. especially if you have infinite length lists
03:06:49 <hppavilion[1]> My Esolangs Google+ community doubled in size today :)
03:07:02 <oerjan> let (m+n) l = m(n(tails l)) in ((!!3)+(!!4))[1..]
03:07:12 <oerjan> > let (m+n) l = m(n(tails l)) in ((!!3)+(!!4))[1..]
03:07:41 <oerjan> > let (m+n) l = m(n(tails l)) in ((!!3)+(!!4))[0..]
03:08:01 <oerjan> so you can define addition
03:08:52 <HackEgo> Bless you, barked. Blarked.
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03:54:39 <oerjan> sam starfall gets the upper hand. or leg.
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04:06:50 <oerjan> quiz question: how is sam starfall like the fsm
04:07:31 <oerjan> wait, riddle was the word i couldn't remember
04:14:22 <shachaf> oerjan: what's a quiz riddle twh
04:15:52 <shachaf> help, this oerjacronym is inscrutable
04:16:00 <shachaf> "i think you can guess, thank you"?
04:16:10 <shachaf> and anyway oerjan would say hth anyway
04:17:13 <shachaf> is there an oerjanologist in the channel
04:20:02 <shachaf> I'm asking my mental model of oerjan, but it's just saying "MWAHAHAHAHA".
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04:41:21 <quintopia> oerjan: the real quiz is "who is sam starfall"
04:42:12 <oerjan> everyone knows that, quintopia
04:42:56 <\oren\> I got to it from project rho atomic rockets
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04:51:15 <lifthrasiir> I spent the last 2 weeks to tinker about combining marks, GPOS and compiler rewriting
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05:07:42 <HackEgo> [U+2FD5 KANGXI RADICAL FLUTE]
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05:36:22 <oerjan> ah one of my guesses for the girl genius princess was right
05:38:20 <oerjan> maybe they'll end up married after all
05:39:48 <oerjan> white hair - could her mother be one of the geisterdamen...
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05:52:24 * oerjan is worried that he still cannot spot the weasel anywhere
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06:27:04 <quintopia> are you any good at graph theory oerjan
06:27:57 <\oren\> berenstein bears. berenstein bears
06:28:25 <\oren\> E. I. now it's A I berenstain bears
06:29:07 <\oren\> I don't get it. it was always berenstein not berenstain
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06:32:57 <oerjan> `` grep -i beren wisdom/*
06:33:06 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
06:33:30 <oerjan> `` grep -i beren wisdom/* 2>/dev/null
06:33:35 <HackEgo> Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
06:34:42 <FireFly> `` hexdump -C wisdom/reflection
06:34:43 <HackEgo> 00000000 68 65 78 64 75 6d 70 00 2d 43 00 77 69 73 64 6f |hexdump.-C.wisdo| \ 00000010 6d 2f 72 65 66 6c 65 63 74 69 6f 6e 00 |m/reflection.| \ 0000001d
06:35:13 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/reflection
06:35:14 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 18 Dec 9 04:13 wisdom/reflection -> /proc/self/cmdline
06:35:36 <\oren\> that is scary as all hell.
06:36:10 <FireFly> `culprits wisdom/reflection
06:36:27 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/reflection | grep summary:
06:36:32 <HackEgo> summary: <tswett> ` ln -s /proc/self/cmdline wisdom/reflection
06:37:17 <quintopia> so i guess that will match anything you grep it for :D
06:37:47 <shachaf> It's the same way that "ps aux | grep foo" will always match foo.
06:37:53 <shachaf> In fact it's the same mechanism.
06:38:54 <quintopia> `` grep -v grep -i beren wisdom/* 2>/dev/null
06:38:56 <HackEgo> wisdom/`:` is the prefix to greatness. \ wisdom/`?:`? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ wisdom/==:Did you know you can define == recursively!? \ wisdom/ :The final frontier. \ wisdom/_̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞:_̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖́̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̈̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ _̰̆̓_́̅
06:40:12 <quintopia> `` grep -i beren wisdom/* 2>/dev/null | grep -v grep
06:40:16 <HackEgo> Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
06:40:18 <\oren\> I swear to god I'll go find my old berenstein bears books
06:41:56 <quintopia> `` grep -i beren wisdom/* 2>/dev/null | grep -v reflection
07:02:06 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Ah, I see you've discovered the Mandella Effect
07:02:42 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: This part of the topic was the first added in 2016 | The international hub for magic gathering and deployment. | Effi's finest fluffy waffles | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/ | This part of the topic was the second added in 2016 | This part of the topic was the.
07:04:57 <hppavilion[1]> *IDEA* A language that can be used both for code golphing AND for actual, production use. Like, you could have golphy code in it (@[-,*) as well as rational, humany code
07:05:19 <\oren\> Interestingly I don't remember Mandela dying in prison. But I do remember George W Bush being ridiculed for saying that Mandela was dead, when he wasn't.
07:05:54 <shachaf> I think APL is a good answer because production code in APL is golfed anyway.
07:06:04 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I made the decision to call it "golphing" in the presence of anyone
07:06:20 <hppavilion[1]> See how long it is before I see other people using it
07:06:41 <hppavilion[1]> Before sending the first message where I said "golphing"
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07:11:46 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: \oren\ just discovered the Mandella Effect
07:13:11 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: Some people remember Nelson Mandella dying in prison when he didn't
07:13:32 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: They claim this is proof that we keep swapping between a number of parallel dimensions over time
07:13:48 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: 4-dimensional complex manifolds and whatnot
07:14:05 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: Also, Berenstain Bears. Not Berenstein Bears.
07:18:08 <hppavilion[1]> Are there any useful constructions of numbers using only matrices?
07:19:42 -!- oerjan has set topic: This part of the topic was the first added in 2016 | The international hub for magic gathering and deployment. | Effi's finest fluffy waffles | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/ | This part of the topic was the second added in 2016 | This part of the topic was too.
07:23:46 <zzo38> You can represent complex numbers as a matrix of real numbers
07:25:04 <oerjan> yes you can, although you might need to do it on top of the complex rep
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07:27:16 <oerjan> hm what about rationals
07:29:22 <shachaf> oerjan: Don't you need at least a field for a matrix to make much sense?
07:29:50 <oerjan> no, you need a commutative ring
07:30:00 <oerjan> well that's for determinants
07:30:20 <shachaf> You can represent dual numbers with a matrix, of course.
07:30:21 <oerjan> plain ring gives a matrix ring
07:31:20 <oerjan> gah this connection is shit
07:33:11 <mroman> you can always use {{x,0},{0,x}}
07:34:23 <mroman> {{x,0},{0,x}} * {{y,0},{0,y}} is neatly {{xy,0},{0,xy}}
07:38:41 <oerjan> well yes, that's the diagonal embedding, it only requires a ring
07:46:56 <oerjan> hm nope you cannot represent rationals as matrices of integers, because doubling a matrix must multiply the determinant by 2^n
07:47:07 <oerjan> which makes the result non-invertible.
07:49:42 <mroman> @tell int-e your server seems down.
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08:10:55 <mroman> http://codepad.org/kKyzrf9k
08:11:24 <mroman> it's missing conditional operators for now
08:18:05 <mroman> the question is: Would one really need at least two threads to write programs?
08:18:14 <mroman> (programs that do suffiecently useful things)
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08:20:39 <mroman> http://codepad.org/yPQlKGGM <- (with some conditionals)
08:26:45 <zzo38> It looks like OK to me, but I do not know the answer of your question, but I would expect so
08:33:26 <mroman> although I think you can implement state machines using one thread only
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08:43:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[☃]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46142 * Mroman * (+1939) + multi-threaded 2D language
08:44:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[☃]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46143&oldid=46142 * Mroman * (+6) /* Instructions */
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08:49:27 <mroman> I'd strongly suspect you can translate brainfuck programs to it somehow
08:49:33 <mroman> brainfuck programs with finite tape
08:50:07 <mroman> the tape is just a sequence of s
08:53:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:☃]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46144 * Mroman * (+241) Created page with "== Ideas for translating brainfuck to ☃ == <pre> >s v s (ptr) >s v >s v >s v ^ ^ ^ ^ v -n-n-n-n..."
08:54:12 <mroman> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:%E2%98%83
08:56:52 <mroman> the problem is that you'd always have to go back there so to select the instruction to execute you probably need to have an instruction pointer as well of some sort
08:57:06 <mroman> and emulate a stack for brainfuck's []
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09:20:15 <myname> i'd say snowmn is tc with multiple threads, each representing one bf cell
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09:48:39 <J_Arcane> welp. I have finished my brainfuck. and I have no idea if it works properly, because Racket's support for single-byte I/O is terribly broken.
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10:04:20 <J_Arcane> https://github.com/jarcane/heresy/blob/master/examples/brainfuck.hsy
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10:50:58 <myname> good point, i totally missed loops that change the position of the cell pointer
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11:19:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Control Flow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46145&oldid=45771 * Mroman * (+210) /* Coroutines */
11:20:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Control Flow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46146&oldid=46145 * Mroman * (-1) /* Coroutines */
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11:25:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Control Flow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46147&oldid=46146 * Mroman * (+640) + error handling
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11:52:47 <mroman> would it make sense to re-use the heat of waste water?
11:53:09 <mroman> you heat up lots of water, then it goes down the pipse to the sewage system as warm water
11:53:32 <mroman> seems very wasteful because you only need the water to be warm for when it hits your skin
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11:55:58 <mroman> seems like it's already done in some parts of the world
12:02:56 <HackEgo> glogbot/glogbot is a snitch, don't trust it.
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12:09:10 <J_Arcane> After an embarrassing fix, brainfuck.hsy runs the cat program ,[.[-],] successfully. Hello World still eludes me. https://github.com/jarcane/heresy/blob/master/examples/brainfuck.hsy
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12:21:47 <J_Arcane> I *think* there may still be an issue with output though, because something as simple as +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. doesn't even produce an output.
12:25:06 <MDude> https://archive.org/details/AllAboutPolymorphics
12:56:55 <int-e> shocking, people missed me...
12:59:08 <J_Arcane> I think the problem is in my main program loop. I'm just not sure how. https://twitter.com/J_Arcane/status/686528424731619328
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13:09:43 <int-e> fun. https://panel.cloudatcost.com is down.
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13:41:15 <coppro> does anyone know of an algorithm whose existence is proven, but whose correctness is undecideable?
13:41:38 <coppro> I know such a thing exists and I might decide to publish a paper about it eventually
13:43:54 <izabera> does it have to do something useful?
13:44:47 <coppro> it just needs to be an algorithm
13:47:18 <izabera> take an undecidable problem, flip a coin, sum how many times the coin is head times the problem is true
13:47:49 <coppro> what problem does that solve?
13:48:06 <izabera> counting how many times the coin is head times the problem is true
13:48:43 <coppro> the algorithm can't compute the undecideable problem
13:49:28 <izabera> it doesn't have to find an answer to that
13:51:12 <coppro> otherwise it doesn't know what number to multiply by
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13:52:19 <b_jonas> Question about M:tG OGW. Is the reason why the colorless mana symbol is a four-spiked star the same hedrons that also give the shape of the Zendikar block expansion symbols? Should I expect seeing five-pointed mana symbols in the future for abilities that add one mana of any color of my choice to my mana pool?
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13:53:50 <b_jonas> The first question is serious.
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14:10:49 <haavard> Question about M:tG. Why does Wizards hate blue?
14:14:14 <b_jonas> They actually like blue, but in a tricky non-obvious way, the way blue prefers.
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14:15:25 <b_jonas> Think about it: wizards has been barely printing cards with protection for a while, and now they also decided they'll stop printing cards with landwalk, fear, and intimidate. That means blue will have the only sources of unblockable creatures, while still having the most efficient flying creatures.
14:16:48 <haavard> And yet the only viable blue decks in modern are Twin and Infect
14:17:10 <haavard> I'm just sad my blue modern decks aren't overpowered
14:18:25 <coppro> see, there's your problem
14:19:31 <b_jonas> haavard: isn't that because other people have access to blue as well?
14:23:00 <haavard> No, it's because other people have access to things like Arcbound Ravager and Collected Company
14:24:11 <b_jonas> haavard: aren't the artifact decks with Arcbound Ravager partly blue by default?
14:24:50 <haavard> A couple Thoughcasts doesn't count as blue
14:25:34 <b_jonas> They do for me. I rarely build pure-blue decks, but blue is a toolbox that has something nice to add to lots of decks.
14:25:44 <haavard> I don't think you understand
14:25:53 <haavard> I'm not winning with *my* decks, so I'm blaming Wizards for it
14:26:13 <b_jonas> I have decks with just one playset of blue, but that one playset is what makes the deck work, it would suck without blue.
14:26:43 <haavard> One playset of blue? What deck is that?
14:30:01 <b_jonas> haavard: not a very good one. elf control, with 4 Elvish Guidance and 4 Distant Melody.
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15:19:21 <HackEgo> narutoverse/narutoverse is a place where they haven't heard of having a bus factor of >1. Sgeo drives the bus.
15:19:34 <b_jonas> fungot, do you drive buses?
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15:41:13 <mroman> recordmydesktop is horribly slow
15:42:21 <mroman> it'd take hours to encode a few minutes of desktop session
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15:49:34 <int-e> cool. '[25394.577277] Read-error on swap-device (8:0:491472)'
15:56:28 * int-e wonders what effect rasing a ticket at coc would have
15:59:50 <int-e> mroman: so the server is up again for now... until the next fatal IO error
16:01:39 <int-e> (actually ssh was still working? it's hard to say, they may have had a routing problem as well.)
16:02:51 <int-e> I could re-setup the VM but that would change the IP address (and lose data, but that's just a matter of doing a backup)
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16:12:49 <fizzie> int-e: http://www.cloudatacost.com/mystory
16:14:01 <fizzie> (Of course that's re something allegedly fixed long ago.)
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16:32:32 <int-e> fizzie: thanks, that about matches my expectations
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16:35:24 <int-e> I mean I mostly got this server for amusement value... it's been a fair deal, but I'm starting to feel kind of bad for hosting mroman's Burlesque shell there.
16:36:55 <FireFly> It took me way too long to notice the difference in the domain name, I was rather confused
16:38:53 <int-e> @tell boily I tend to do lambdabot maintenance when I update ghc... stackage is currently moving too fast for me.
16:40:45 <int-e> I also didn't get any coding done over the holidays. Motivation is an issue...
16:40:53 <Taneb> Eodermdrome is non-deterministic, right?
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17:59:50 <J_Arcane> Welp. My adventures in brainfuck implementation have basically collapsed as I just keep uncovering more bizarre regressions in Heresy rather than making any real progress.
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19:42:02 <HackEgo> olist 1018: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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20:06:10 <izabera> name one program that uses getusershell()
20:06:53 <izabera> why do these interface even exist?
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21:44:12 <mauris> does order of the stick not have an RSS feed or something?
21:44:47 <mauris> or is olist just a tradition (i think it has been a thing since before i joined #esoteric but i'm not sure)
21:46:10 <shachaf> `` hg log bin/olist | grep date: | tail -n1
21:46:12 <HackEgo> date: Fri Jan 18 17:22:20 2013 +0000
21:46:15 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/nooodl | grep date: | tail -n1
21:46:17 <HackEgo> date: Wed May 08 19:44:48 2013 +0000
21:47:41 <shachaf> `` hg log --keyword nooodl | grep date: | tail -n1
21:47:46 <HackEgo> date: Fri Nov 02 22:09:16 2012 +0000
21:47:50 <shachaf> `` hg log --keyword nooodl | grep summary: | tail -n1
21:47:53 <HackEgo> summary: <nooodl> learn bonvenon Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-o: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
21:54:20 <shachaf> I thought mauris had been around forever.
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21:55:20 <shachaf> oh man, and here i was, noodling around
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21:57:45 <b_jonas> mauris: I call it the obell
21:58:06 <vanila> b_jonas, i was wondering why you don't like prince of persia 2?
21:58:40 <b_jonas> vanila: I don't like playing it, it's too hard for me, and difficult to follow because some of the level maps seem so large.
21:59:09 <b_jonas> I just didn't invest time to learn it.
21:59:22 <b_jonas> I played other games instead, like Commander Keen.
22:01:12 <b_jonas> I quite like Commander Keen games.
22:02:58 <b_jonas> I don't claim to be good at them: I've done episodes 1 and 2, as well as 4 and 5 and 6 in easy mode, and possibly 5 in normal mode (I can't remember), but I'm stuck with episode 3, and I probably couldn't do any except maybe 5 without saves.
22:04:44 <b_jonas> vanila: what video games do you like playing?
22:05:38 <vanila> i guess i like a lot of games, the last one i played was fez which was nice
22:05:54 <vanila> im trying to figure out some alternative input devices to play games with
22:06:36 <b_jonas> so like joystick, a steering wheel and pedals, or touchscreen (eww)?
22:06:39 <vanila> right now working on playing go via speech recognition
22:06:52 <b_jonas> ah, for go that's certainly possible
22:07:47 <zzo38> To me, keyboard is fine as the input device, especially if the controls for the game can be remapped
22:08:22 <b_jonas> since you only have to input a couple of choices for line and column numbers, you can prepare by learning the input software, and the time limit isn't too tight
22:08:28 <vanila> i might build something out of old electronics from second hand shop
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22:12:02 <b_jonas> then of course game consoles have a lot of other input devices these days, many of which are available for PC too: handheld controllers with buttons and sticks, camera with lightgun, 3d camera (stereoscopic and TOF)
22:12:17 <b_jonas> as well as steering wheel of course
22:14:45 <zzo38> Some game program only allow partial customization. The game "Pharaoh's Tomb" has four control schemes, the one I prefer is left shift key move left, right shift key move right, space bar jumps (fixed jump height), and any of ZXCVBNM,./ will shoot.
22:15:34 <b_jonas> And sure, I like when controls in the game are customizable.
22:15:56 <b_jonas> In commander keen games, they are, and I used that to try to play with one hand once (it didn't work well).
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22:38:32 <int-e> ah, found them. http://www.welovedosgames.net/resizeimagereal.php?PLAATJE=images/games/keen1_14.png&w=640&h=480
22:39:05 <int-e> hmm, without the resizing, http://www.welovedosgames.net/images/games/keen1_14.png
22:42:52 <b_jonas> int-e: um, is that from a real level?
22:43:24 <mauris> it's the bottom of the huge optional maze level isn't it?
22:44:15 <b_jonas> http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/Red_Maze_City ? doesn't look like
22:44:49 <b_jonas> it's http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/Vorticon_Commander%27s_Castle
22:46:47 <int-e> oh right... important for people who got that far without the pogo stick...
22:52:20 -!- izabera has changed nick to op.
22:52:48 -!- op has changed nick to izabera.
22:53:51 <mauris> hmm, i don't recall you can get there without one... let me try
22:54:00 <int-e> I didn't know that. "The Vorticon Commander found at the end of this level is not invincible, he can be killed with 105 raygun shots."
22:56:34 <int-e> it's easy enough to get there... just two levels...
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23:04:05 <lambdabot> CYUL 112200Z 27016G25KT 15SM FEW040 FEW240 M10/M18 A2986 RMK SC1CI1 SC TR CI TR SLP117
23:04:57 -!- XorSwap has joined.
23:05:19 <lambdabot> CYUL 112200Z 27016G25KT 15SM FEW040 FEW240 M10/M18 A2986 RMK SC1CI1 SC TR CI TR SLP117
23:05:28 <boily> aurgh. I want my 112300Z!
23:05:34 <lambdabot> int-e said 6h 26m 40s ago: I tend to do lambdabot maintenance when I update ghc... stackage is currently moving too fast for me.
23:06:37 <boily> int-e: int-ello. tdh.
23:09:20 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:09:51 -!- Melvar has joined.
23:12:29 <lambdabot> CYUL 112300Z 29017G22KT 15SM FEW040 FEW240 M10/M19 A2990 RMK SC1CI1 SC TR CI TR SLP130
23:15:33 <lambdabot> KOAK 112253Z 29008KT 10SM OVC038 14/09 A3027 RMK AO2 SLP250 T01390094
23:16:39 <boily> is it me, or is it perpetually +14 in shachafland?
23:16:54 <lambdabot> KSJC 112253Z 26004KT 10SM FEW024 SCT060 BKN170 17/09 A3026 RMK AO2 SLP245 T01670094
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23:17:08 <lambdabot> KSFO 112256Z 00000KT 10SM BKN038 BKN060 13/09 A3027 RMK AO2 SLP249 T01280089
23:17:20 <shachaf> +14 is pretty good, though +20 or +23 would be better
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23:26:24 <lambdabot> ENVA 112320Z 08015KT CAVOK M04/M12 Q0998 RMK WIND 670FT 08016KT
23:26:46 <oerjan> bohily. it felt colder than it is, today.
23:27:02 <lambdabot> CYUL 112300Z 29017G22KT 15SM FEW040 FEW240 M10/M19 A2990 RMK SC1CI1 SC TR CI TR SLP130
23:28:29 <shachaf> what did what's-his-name mean about the vampires twh
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23:29:44 <lambdabot> EGLL 112320Z AUTO 27008KT 9999 SCT042 04/03 Q0990
23:33:16 <oerjan> shachaf: logreading will resume in a minute. in the meantime, watch some stupid norwegian black metalers http://heltnormalt.no/kollektivet/2016/01/11
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23:36:00 <lambdabot> ESSB 112320Z AUTO 08006KT 9999 UP BKN007/// OVC009/// 01/M00 Q0994
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23:36:22 <shachaf> FireFly: you should fix up slashlearn twh
23:36:35 <shachaf> le/rn should support le//rn
23:36:51 <HackEgo> bin/le/rn: ERROR: cannot open `bin/le/rn' (No such file or directory)
23:36:56 <HackEgo> le/rn: symbolic link to `../bin/slashlearn'
23:37:06 <HackEgo> bin/slashlearn: Bourne-Again shell script, UTF-8 Unicode text executable
23:37:12 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ [[ "$1" = */* ]] || exit \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | cut -d / -f 1) \ [ -z "$topic" ] && exit 1 \ value=$(echo "$1" | cut -d / -f 2-) \ echo "$value" > wisdom/"$topic" && echo "Learned «$topic»"
23:37:24 <shachaf> instead of using cut you should use bash fanciness
23:37:27 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
23:37:56 <HackEgo> int-e tswett tswett shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf
23:38:01 <int-e> . o O ( sed -i -e s/topic/toothpick/g bin/*learn )
23:38:39 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:38:39 <shachaf> `` hg log bin/slashlearn | grep summary:
23:38:44 <HackEgo> summary: <int-e> ` sed -i 1a\'[[ "$1" = */* ]] || exit\' bin/slashlearn \ summary: <shachaf> revert 5151 \ summary: <shachaf> ` sed -i -e \'3a [ -e wisdom/"$topic" ] && op=\'\\\'\'Overwrote\'\\\'\' || op=\'\\\'\'Wrote\'\\\'\'\' -e \'s/Learned/$op/\' bin/slashlearn \ summary: <shachaf> ` echo $\'#!/bin/bash\\ntopic=$(echo "$1" | lowe
23:38:56 * oerjan wonders when they're going to fix the broken voting buttons
23:40:05 * FireFly leaves the shellery to someone more bash-proficient
23:40:24 <boily> s/shellery/celery/
23:40:35 <oerjan> boily: on the comics site i linked
23:41:05 <shachaf> no one's going to do it, huh?
23:41:57 <shachaf> and i can't even use mkx because it doesn't support newlines
23:42:07 <shachaf> never mind, i just won't use newlines
23:42:30 <oerjan> `` echo test//hi | cut -d // -f 2-
23:42:31 <HackEgo> cut: the delimiter must be a single character \ Try `cut --help' for more information.
23:42:49 <shachaf> just use the bash magic thing
23:43:05 <oerjan> funny thing, i don't know the bash magic thing.
23:43:15 <shachaf> well i quoted it above hth
23:43:20 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
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23:44:31 <boily> le test, il a été supprimé.
23:45:10 <boily> l'expression/régulière/du/cabot/du/chien.
23:45:33 <boily> time for some poutine, and/or a variation thereof.
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23:49:20 <shachaf> `mkx bin/slashlearn//sep="/"; [ "$0" == *//* ] && sep="//"; [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || exit 1; key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)"; value="${1#*$sep}"; echo "value" > "wisdom/$key"; echo "Learned «$key»"
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23:51:05 <shachaf> `le/rn dahl/Royal Dahl is the king of Norway.
23:51:11 <HackEgo> /hackenv/le/rn: line 1: [: too many arguments \ Learned «dahl»
23:51:33 <shachaf> `mkx bin/slashlearn//sep="/"; [[ "$0" == *//* ]] && sep="//"; [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || exit 1; key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)"; value="${1#*$sep}"; echo "$value" > "wisdom/$key"; echo "Learned «$key»"
23:51:42 <HackEgo> shachaf int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull Phantom_Hoover
23:51:51 <shachaf> `le/rn dahl/Royal Dahl is the king of Norway.
23:52:42 <HackEgo> wisdom \ wisdom/¯\(°_o) \ wisdom/¯\(°_o) \ wisdom/le
23:53:04 * oerjan flogs shachaf for not testing if the wisdom exists first --~~~~~~
23:53:18 <shachaf> 15:49 <HackEgo> dahl dih dahl dahl
23:54:11 <shachaf> `mkx bin/slashlearn//sep="/"; [[ "$0" == *//* ]] && sep="//"; [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || exit 1; key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)"; value="${1#*$sep}"; echo "$value" > "wisdom/$key" && echo "Learned «$key»"
23:54:20 <shachaf> oerjan: the dogs now howl?
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23:54:38 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
23:54:43 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
23:55:09 <shachaf> `le/rn le/arn//lern 2 spel
23:55:12 <HackEgo> /hackenv/le/rn: line 1: wisdom/le: Is a directory
23:55:29 <shachaf> `le//rn le/arn//lern 2 spel
23:55:56 <shachaf> I'm considering adding mkdir -p but I feel like it might be a bad idea.
23:56:14 <int-e> wouldn't it be saner to map / to \1 for learning purposes...
23:56:41 <shachaf> what metric do you think HackEgo utilities are written to maximize?
23:57:00 <int-e> are you suggesting it's not sanity?
23:57:41 <int-e> realistically I think it's entertainment value, but sometimes short-term sanity increases long-term enjoyability
23:58:04 <shachaf> Feel free to make a version of le/rn that supports backslash-escaping
23:58:34 <shachaf> oerjan: do you want to revert dahl et ahl.
23:59:05 <oerjan> it was an improvement, apart from the part where i had to do work to check hth
23:59:54 <shachaf> not even a swat for that one?
00:00:09 <int-e> (Morse code is what "dahl dih dahl dahl" made me think of)
00:00:10 <HackEgo> Royahl Dahhl ihs the kihng ohf Nohrway.
00:00:54 <oerjan> poor harald will be so disappointed that he's no longer the king.
00:01:26 <oerjan> oh that reminds me of something i thought of
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00:10:11 <oerjan> `le/rn remorse/.--. . --- .--. .-.. . / .-- .. - .... / -. --- / .-. . -- --- .-. ... . / .. -. ... .. ... - / --- -. / ... .- -.-- .. -. --. / . ...- . .-. -.-- - .... .. -. --. / .. -. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . --..-- / -... ..- - / --- -. .-.. -.-- / --- -. -.-. . .-.-.-
00:10:15 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -p \ s/([aeiouy])([bcdfghjklmnpqrstvxz])/$1h$2/ig
00:10:31 * oerjan flogs himself --~~~~~~
00:10:40 <oerjan> `culprists wisdom/remorse
00:10:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: culprists: not found
00:10:47 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/remorse
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00:38:45 <oerjan> <shachaf> what did what's-his-name mean about the vampires twh <-- no clue hth
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00:42:21 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm all about dos AMs `bout dos AMs, no CISC, all about...)
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00:47:21 <oerjan> shachaf: possibly just that they shouldn't punish him for attacking them
00:47:37 <oerjan> but he can attack the high priestess too so...
00:48:14 <mad> kinda wondering... for a directed graph to be turing complete, it needs to have an infinity of non-identical nodes
00:49:23 <oerjan> a directed graph is not by itself a model of computation so cannot be turing complete without something added
00:49:23 <mad> since if it doesn't have an infinity of nodes it can't store an infinite tape...
00:50:26 <mad> and if those nodes are identical (ie the graph has infinite symmetries which makes the nodes identical), then the program can't retrieve the infinite tape from its node position
00:50:57 <mad> oerjan : what's mutable is the position of the currently considered node
00:51:00 <oerjan> mad: a tape doesn't have to be infinite, just growable.
00:51:17 <oerjan> mad: ah so the graph is the state space
00:51:19 <mad> well, it's not infinite at any moment but it must be infinitely growable
00:52:49 <oerjan> well then it's pretty obvious yes
00:54:04 <mad> the other requirement I'm ending up with for turing completeness is kinda weird though...
00:54:53 <oerjan> it seems rather awkward to define exactly what else a graph needs then
00:55:01 <mad> it seems to require multiple different possible "growth rates"... which would explain the wire-crossing problem
00:55:06 <mad> like if you number the nodes
00:55:39 <mad> you can have additive nodes: node 1000 goes to 1017 for instance (+17)
00:56:09 <oerjan> it is enough to have multiplicative nodes, that gives you the ability to encode fractran.
00:56:13 <mad> and multiplicative nodes: node 1000 goes to 2000 (*2) (possibly combined with additive)
00:56:45 <mad> and the reverses (subtractive, divisive with different destinations depending on reminder)
00:57:27 <mad> but I think that as long as you have two different growth scales (like additive and exponential, additive and quadratic etc) then it works
00:57:30 <oerjan> you don't need division with anything but 0 remainder
00:58:25 <oerjan> mad: it is enough to have multiplication and division (with remainder 0) by 2 and 3
00:58:45 <oerjan> if you have an FSA control too
00:59:12 <oerjan> otherwise, add a few more primes
00:59:23 <mad> fsa can be emulated if you have a periodic pattern in some cases I think
00:59:50 <oerjan> i say, take a look at fractran.
00:59:59 <mad> ...which I guess sis the same as adding more primes
01:02:32 <mad> what if you have *3 and /2 and additive?
01:03:05 <mad> it kinda has multiple scales ish but they're like all one-way
01:05:14 <mad> additive scale only is insufficient I think
01:05:58 <mad> since it's equivalent to fsa + one bignum
01:06:14 <mad> (minsky machine is turing complete but it takes fsa + two bignums)
01:06:15 <oerjan> i suspect that won't work. this reminds me very vaguely of my one brush with cstheory.stackexchange http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/21525/conjecture-about-two-counters-automata/29197#29197
01:06:45 <oerjan> although that's really about how 2-cell minsky machine needs its input in very particular format
01:07:32 <mad> well, yeah
01:07:43 <oerjan> hm *3 and /2, are you trying to involve collatz here? :P
01:07:49 <mad> :D :D :D :D
01:08:45 <mad> I guess that's why collatz is hard, it has nearly all the elements of a turing machine and it's hard to tell if it has just enough or just too few
01:11:08 <oerjan> in fact, because of collatz you can at least encode a computation that's very hard to predict the result of
01:13:48 * oerjan wonders if anyone's tried to bound from below the hardness of predicting collatz
01:13:49 <mad> other things that I wonder if they're turing complete are (add n to digit-reversed n, repeat until you get a palindrome) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN8PE3eljdA and (writing an integer as a sum of 3 cubes of integers including negatives) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wymmCdLdPvM
01:14:05 <HackEgo> )ylwM%h"v,G-)7gI:<_s\U:N8{K;f}AlCqͩ"2P \ ړSEu3wfB>Ru+a^̇VxdK̷Őv^9;VrnfwevVTg_/̯,{;Я^DѾ}V1G?hmXvsN,8
01:14:33 <mad> digit-reversing looks like a good method of getting the double-stack you need to get an infinite tape
01:16:51 <izabera> stupid hackego, that breaks my terminal
01:17:17 <ais523> arguably that's a bug in the lient
01:17:59 <ais523> mad: what's with the "until you get a palindrome" halt condition? just because you wanted an arbitrary halt condition?
01:18:04 <izabera> my client works ok but i can't use ^L to see the raw version
01:18:26 <oerjan> ais523: lychrel numbers, e.g. it's unknown if 196 ever gives one
01:19:13 <mad> ais523 : I didn't come up with this, it's just that when I saw it, well, it has wildly varying number of steps and some that seem to go on forever... that's a candidate for turing completeness to me
01:19:40 <oerjan> statistically, it probably doesn't, because once it grows enough heuristically the chances get miniscule that it ever will.
01:20:05 <oerjan> and it has been shown to grow to more than a billion digits.
01:20:12 <oerjan> (without a palindrome)
01:20:49 <mad> what I want to know is... is there a way to program in this system
01:21:15 <ais523> oerjan: I mean, restricting the halt condition just makes TCness proofs harder
01:21:40 <oerjan> mad: you might take a look at Dupdog on our wiki
01:21:56 <oerjan> we don't know how to program that either (or if it's possible)
01:22:10 <mad> once the number gets palindromic I think it just grows following 2^x * n
01:22:16 <oerjan> and i believe ais523 has a few other examples
01:22:25 <ais523> xigxag is the other one
01:22:39 <oerjan> mad: no, it can turn nonpalindromic again
01:22:40 <ais523> although xigxag is a bit different because it grows exponentially in all nontrivial cases
01:22:53 <oerjan> it's not like it's a preserved property
01:23:02 <mad> yeah you're right on that one
01:23:06 <ais523> the question is if you can get Turing behaviour "inside" the string somehow
01:24:50 <oerjan> i never finished my investigation of the mccullough2 machine
01:25:32 <mad> then there's the mandlebrot set that has this kindof property as well
01:25:33 <oerjan> i got to the point where everything either obviously halted, diverged, or went into a weird minsky-like subsystem of <= 6 registers
01:26:16 <oerjan> so theoretically there could still be something TC inside but i doubt there's enough complexity for it
01:26:17 <mad> since it's about something that can halt or not, can potentially have infinitely growable information store (in the digits of the current complex number)
01:27:20 <oerjan> mad: well complex numbers don't necessarily have finite number of digits
01:27:46 <oerjan> although i guess if you start with that, it won't suddenly become infinite
01:28:08 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/McCulloch's_second_machine for people who are having trouble finding the link (it took me a few tries)
01:28:29 <mad> if you chose your z to have rational r and rational i, your current value is always rational no?
01:29:19 <ais523> oerjan: I've been sort-of specializing in weird restricted minskyalikes recently
01:29:30 <ais523> although I assume the rules of this one are bizarrely complex?
01:30:18 <oerjan> bizarre, but not _that_ complex
01:30:44 <mad> my holy grail would be something in the family of a simple recursive equation applied until you hit some halt condition
01:30:51 <mad> ideally fitting on a single line
01:35:23 <oerjan> ais523: the relevant strings are of the form [24]*5[24]+5[24]*, which can be reanalyzed by ignoring all even-length sequences of 4s and then considering lengths of sequences of 2s as registers.
01:36:20 <oerjan> and then you can formulate the further evolution as register shuffling and addition/increments
01:36:38 <mad> if collatz turned out to be turing complete then it would qualify since you can write it as f(x) = (5 * (x mod 2)+1) * x/2 + (x mod 2)
01:37:00 <oerjan> and if you have more than about 6 registers it grows exponentially, while if the 5s ever get joined it halts.
01:39:42 <oerjan> (earlier stages where you have other digits and/or a different number of 5s than two will quickly reduce)
01:41:22 <ais523> mad: err, generalized collatz is turing complete
01:41:40 <oerjan> oh hm i also simplified by looking only at those recurring steps where it starts with a 5
01:41:51 <oerjan> (then you only have two groups of registers)
01:42:02 <mad> ais523 : yes but the ones that are proven turing complete are quite a bit larger no? :D
01:42:03 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, the complexity here is that the number of registers changes over time?
01:43:18 <mad> one thing that would be cool is a turing complete function that gives a rational number if it "halts" and an irrational if it runs forever
01:43:20 <ais523> that makes quite a change to how you program a minskyalike!
01:43:27 <oerjan> and there were more cases than i wanted to do by hand
01:44:06 <mad> and doesn't have an explicit loop, and to get the "loop" you have to compute it with increasing precision
01:44:46 <ais523> mad: haha, I like that
01:44:58 <ais523> but even if it is rational, you can't in general prove it's rational
01:45:26 <mad> or maybe something that is either positive or negative
01:45:56 <mad> but if it's non halting the error range covers 0 forever
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01:51:12 <hppavilion[1]> Wiki's article on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterministic_finite_automaton starts very morbidly
01:55:07 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
01:55:46 <oerjan> what is "he'll burn in hell for calling Wikipedia "Wiki"" in spanish twh
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01:57:11 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Wiki is a fun abbreviation. It's not like I'm confusing it with anything.
01:57:36 <oerjan> it's not an abbreviation it's a noun hth
01:58:31 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Of course it's a noun. Abbreviations and nouns are not mutually exclusive
01:58:38 <ais523> "the Wiki", or "Wiki", without context, refers to c2 IIRC
01:58:43 <ais523> or maybe some other early wiki
01:58:49 <shachaf> clearly it doesn't in this case
01:58:50 <ais523> not Wikipedia, though, it came later
02:00:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i shall take inspiration for how to punish the british from http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060306 hth
02:02:04 <shachaf> <oerjan> Something lingering, with boiling oil in it, I fancy.
02:02:38 <shachaf> http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/mikado/webopera/mk207d.html hth
02:06:47 <shachaf> oerjan: would have preferred i,i at the beginning wthh
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06:02:11 <oerjan> did scott aaronson break his blog styling
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06:04:35 <HackEgo> catern: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
06:04:43 <catern> this is a good channel
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06:08:22 <oerjan> i guess it must be on purpose, i don't think it had commenter icons before. but it's lost the comment numbers which everyone used to refer to each other, that's going to be confusing. (not that it wasn't before whenever the numbers shifted for whatever reason.)
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07:46:11 <oerjan> Nom. fnǫrðr Acc. fnǫrð Dat. fnirði Gen. fnarðar
07:46:42 <Taneb> Are you declining icelandic
07:47:59 <shachaf> Taneb: may i offer you some latin
07:49:46 <shachaf> Taneb: would you like some latin
07:50:03 <oerjan> Nom. FNOR Gen. FNORDIS Dat. FNORDI Acc. FNOR Abl. FNORDE Voc. FNOR
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07:53:21 <izabera> https://arin.ga/pbjqXt/raw found some random bf code, then decided to change a couple of things in my interpreter and now the generated code is optimal
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07:54:33 <oerjan> *mumble* *mumble* kolmogorov complexity *mumble*
07:54:58 <FireFly> I don't think it makes sense to say that the generated code is optimal
07:55:11 <FireFly> A sophisticated enough compiler could evaluate things at compile-time
07:55:21 <izabera> well but you have to stop at some point
07:55:30 <oerjan> also it's undecidable to know when it is
07:55:41 <FireFly> One would have to be conservative
07:55:56 <FireFly> the output looks reasonable enough though
07:56:22 <FireFly> apart from, y'know, compiling brainfuck to bash? first time I see that
07:57:49 <izabera> i think it's fast enough to compete with badly written interpreters in any other language
07:57:58 <oerjan> that looks like a simple balanced bf loop. there _are_ some compilers that turn that into simple arithmetic.
07:58:21 <izabera> oerjan: there are no loops in the generated code
08:01:44 <FireFly> oh, nothing wrong with it, just a rather interesting combination of implemetation language and technique :P
08:03:38 <izabera> i should patent it and sell it for a billion dollars
08:06:40 <lifthrasiir> is there a programming language that relies on the structure of recursively subdivided (by horizontal or vertical lines) rectangles?
08:12:10 <oerjan> i dunno but that reminds me of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Memfractal
08:13:16 <oerjan> which i once spent some time trying to see if i could do computation with
08:15:04 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: to be exact, I'm thinking about a programming language which code is either an (CJK) ideograph or an ideograph description sequence that has a recursive rectangular structure
08:15:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Memfractal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46148&oldid=20662 * Oerjan * (+41) cat
08:15:48 <lifthrasiir> Piet is similar in the regard that it has a block of colors and has a defined transition between them, but less structured.
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08:44:04 <myname> memfractal looks pretty hard
08:44:52 <mroman> tables are naturally horizontal structures
08:44:58 <mroman> while phones are naturally vertical thingies
08:47:31 <myname> where's the starting point of a memfractal program"
08:48:25 <mroman> weirdly enough my phone displays font-size: 1.125em SMALLER than regular text
08:52:30 <mroman> it doesn't properly zoom probably
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08:57:29 <oerjan> myname: hm it doesn't say, although it's "trivial" to reroute. i was going to say it's symmetric but X isn't entirely.
08:57:59 <myname> being symmetrical may be a hard cutoff in terms of computational power
08:58:08 <myname> and trivially rerouting the like
08:59:06 <myname> if the code has to be symmetrical i can't do something like "right side of a box is true, left side is false"
08:59:17 <oerjan> no, the code doesn't have to be symmetric
08:59:32 <oerjan> the _language_ nearly is, except for X.
09:00:00 <oerjan> well it is symmetric by 180 degree rotation, and all except X by 90.
09:00:13 <oerjan> (you need to switch / and \ for the latter)
09:00:17 <myname> the language is symmetric, yeah
09:00:31 <myname> but you still need to define where to enter in some way
09:00:36 <mroman> these mobile phones webbased online emulators suck as well
09:00:42 <mroman> some of them just embed an ifram
09:00:54 <oerjan> well yes, i'm just saying it doesn't matter which edge you choose for that.
09:00:56 <mroman> that's total bullshit.
09:01:29 <myname> @tell zzo38 please specify the starting point of memfractal
09:02:39 <mroman> although in my opinion it's not up to me to fix displaying wide tables for smartphones
09:02:46 <oerjan> oh hm i think when rotating 90 degrees you can replace X by X surrounded by *'s
09:03:02 <mroman> because that's the phone's browser's job, at least it should be.
09:03:06 <oerjan> so you don't need more complicated rerouting
09:04:01 <oerjan> just a simple char -> block replacement
09:04:25 <myname> oerjan: the problem is, that each + basically loses information at that point, doesn't it?
09:06:04 <mroman> http://api.browsershots.org/png/original/56/560d8044d232ba413157d5d3fae54212.png <- lynx needs some fixing too.
09:06:31 <mroman> It doesn't even try to align table cells correctly? and there's no space between </p> and <pre> which looks wrong.
09:06:44 <oerjan> myname: well each recursive copy has its own bit, as it says
09:06:59 <mroman> oh wait. no tables are fine.
09:07:07 <mroman> but the </p><pre> annoys me :(
09:07:43 <myname> oerjan: yeah, but if you don't look exactly where you put your X, you may have a problem with keeping the information, don't you?
09:08:06 <oerjan> myname: i mean you replace an X by an X surrounded on all sides by *s
09:08:17 <oerjan> so there is no bit change in total
09:08:41 <oerjan> you may need to expand the grid to fit, of course
09:09:35 <myname> something like I/O would be nice
09:09:52 <myname> otherwise you have this "memory is your output"-thingie
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09:39:06 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/exps/1.html too bad html can't auto generate references :(
09:42:16 <mroman> also why people have these "to the top" "to bottom" links that scroll with the page (probably position: fixed)
09:42:28 <mroman> that's what browser keyboard shortcuts/mouse gestures are for
09:43:18 <Taneb> mroman: "to the content" and "to/from the footnote" I lke
09:43:37 <mroman> position: fixed usually sucks because it tends to overlap with the content if implemented poorly
09:43:58 <mroman> for example if it's on the left and fixed and you assume there's about 100pixels space on the left before content
09:44:06 <mroman> (let's say you use a margin-left: 10%)
09:44:11 <mroman> that 10% is way smaller on smartphones
09:44:21 <mroman> and the navigation div now overlaps the content
09:44:41 <mroman> because the margin of the content div is now smaller than 100pixels
09:45:20 <mroman> Taneb: yes, but these links should be placed at the top imo
09:45:52 <mroman> and footnotes links are placed within the content so that's not an issue anyway
09:46:14 <Taneb> Yes, ideally the "to the content" should be the first thing on the page
09:46:39 <mroman> although I think jumps to anchors should be the browser history's job
09:47:19 <mroman> so that when you jump to some other place in the content you can easily jump back
09:48:08 <mroman> because making backlinks from footnotes is in my opinion somewhat against the spirit of HTML :D
09:48:20 <mroman> (my idealized version of HTML :))
09:49:04 <mroman> also there's no distinction between id's used for jump targets
09:49:10 <mroman> and ids only used for CSS
09:49:20 <mroman> otherwise browsers could display a document structure on the left for example
09:49:50 <mroman> but since people use ids for all sorts of scripting/styling stuff you'd just probably clutter it
09:50:22 <mroman> the one used for documents, not web applications :D
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09:51:20 <Taneb> What'll you use for web apps
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09:54:18 <mroman> and HTML6 definitely would ignore all javascript :D
09:55:16 <lifthrasiir> don't mind, at that point CSS4 will get Turing-completeness.
09:56:05 <mroman> and be probably restricted to CSS2.1
09:56:20 <mroman> or a restricted subset of CSS3
09:58:09 <FireFly> At this rate epub is basically HTML+related technologies for documents
09:58:49 <mroman> well HTML is a good base for lots of things
09:59:23 <mroman> people now doing UI with HTML
09:59:33 <mroman> and HMTL probably was never supposed to be used for that :D
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11:25:43 <\oren\> "肉片が飛び散っている" -> "Cuts of meat flew and were scattered [like flower petals]" WTF I had no idea the writers of Asahi Shimbun could be so brutal.
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11:33:59 <\oren\> It should be possible to design a programming language in such a way that, like YAML, its format is very flexible, allowing both python-style indentation blocks and C style {} blocks
11:35:21 <\oren\> CSS iirc is already at least a push-down automaton
11:37:30 <\oren\> I want to write a memfractal implementation
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12:06:01 <boily> mynamello, b_jhellonas.
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12:38:58 <mroman> \oren\: and begin ... end blocks
12:39:06 <izabera> my improved bf interpreter can execute mandelbrot.b in only 2h42m31s!!!
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12:40:25 <mroman> is there a benchmark program that terminates in a reasonable amount of time?
12:40:31 <mroman> somewhere within a few minutes?
12:42:13 <izabera> hanoi.b takes less than 50s
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12:48:41 <b_jonas> mroman: what do you want to benchmark?
12:49:47 <FireFly> almost three hours for mandelbrot.b...
12:49:51 <FireFly> but then again, it /is/ bash :P
12:50:11 <izabera> it's a lot faster than it used to be
12:50:26 <izabera> and a lot faster than any other bash interpreter
12:51:29 <mroman> b_jonas: bf interpreters/compilers
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17:24:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Electrodude512 * New user account
17:25:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RSSB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46149&oldid=31329 * Electrodude512 * (+68) Added my RSSB interpreter to External Resources
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17:54:47 <fizzie> That's so handy: in github, if you've got a commit page of the form https://github.com/account/repo/commit/sha you can just append .patch to get it as a patch.
17:55:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:SPLEMIT21]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46150 * 72.10.123.177 * (+112) Created page with "This is just a copy of HQ9+...~~~~"
17:55:29 <fizzie> I don't understand why there's no "view patch" link in the UI for that. They have the "Raw" view for files, after all.
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18:01:23 <HackEgo> mapole/A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
18:04:24 <int-e> hmm... pound per square inch, an ancient greek unit of pressure
18:05:51 <int-e> (unfortunately, the "pound per square inch" part is real)
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18:44:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46151&oldid=45240 * 72.10.123.177 * (+2) /* Hello, world! */
18:44:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46152&oldid=46151 * 72.10.123.177 * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
18:46:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello, world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46153&oldid=44844 * 72.10.123.177 * (+202)
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19:22:33 <fizzie> What, a CR instead of a LF?
19:23:14 <fizzie> (Re the Befunge edits, they changed the old "!dlroW ,olleH">:#,_@ to 94+"!dlroW ,olleH">:#,_@ instead of the common 55+ or 25* that you normally see.)
19:23:54 <fizzie> Also I'm not that sure about both words being capitalized either.
19:25:24 * APic grins manically.
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20:11:04 <mauris_> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW.
20:11:21 <shachaf> can you /nick mauris so i can quotify that
20:11:25 <hppavilion[1]> A Minsky machine... except instead of integer registers, the registers are sets with the according operations changed
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20:11:41 <hppavilion[1]> One of the operations follows an alternate state transition if the set is empty
20:11:49 <shachaf> wait, is the period canonical?
20:12:18 <shachaf> so what's the canonical version
20:12:26 <mauris> ok this time for quotableness:
20:12:27 <mauris> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
20:12:42 <shachaf> `addquote <mauris> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
20:12:44 <HackEgo> 1260) <mauris> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
20:12:47 <shachaf> we need more unicode poetry
20:13:39 <HackEgo> 1136) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
20:14:05 <mauris> HEXAGRAM FOR THE CREATIVE HEAVEN / MATHEMATICAL BOLD DIGIT SEVEN / KANGXI RADICAL WHITE / VERTICAL TRAFFIC LIGHT / NEGATIVE CIRCLED NUMBER ELEVEN
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20:47:51 <hppavilion[1]> Where the only way to accomplish anything is through debugging
20:51:51 <hppavilion[1]> myname: No, using debugging is how you figure out how to do somethign
20:52:07 <myname> ah, c++ with boost, then?
20:52:19 <hppavilion[1]> myname: What I'm getting at is a language that requires debugging to actually /program/, even if you are a programming genius
20:55:36 * int-e used to write small assembly programs in debug.com (later debug.exe)
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21:00:46 <FireFly> mauris: those are nice poems
21:01:36 <HackEgo> ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric.
21:01:49 <FireFly> I forget what it's called..
21:01:54 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
21:02:59 <shachaf> how can you pronounce my limerick without knowing what that letter is called
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21:17:29 <FireFly> That was why I looked it up.
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21:43:00 <shachaf> FireFly: Now you must write a Unicode poem.
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23:00:23 <noob_prodigy_> I've looked on Google and it's hard to find material on Brainfuck and I can't figure it out myself: How does one go about /copying/ (as opposed to moving) one cell's contents into another cell?
23:01:48 <b_jonas> noob_prodigy_: you move the cell to two other cells, then move one of them back to the original cell
23:02:48 <shachaf> I have the same question about x86 and registers. There's only a move instruction, no copy instruction.
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23:03:52 <b_jonas> shachaf: for x86, you zero the other register, then add the value from the first one. move instructions are rarely useful, and they have fewer encodings than arithmetic instructions.
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23:06:10 <shachaf> The x86 add instruction is LEA, right?
23:08:06 <b_jonas> shachaf: there's more than one add instructions. these days you have XADD and stuff like that too.
23:11:21 <olsner> FireFly: I'm surprised you didn't know about ꙮ already
23:12:28 <FireFly> I did, I had just forgotten its name
23:12:57 <shachaf> olsner uses it in his prose
23:13:40 <olsner> yeah, but my poetry's alphanumeric
23:14:03 <shachaf> To be fair, so is multiocular o.
23:14:22 <olsner> how odd, I haven't realized before
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00:19:13 <HackEgo> U+1F1FA REGIONAL INDICATOR SYMBOL LETTER U \ UTF-8: f0 9f 87 ba UTF-16BE: d83cddfa Decimal: 🇺 \ 🇺 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+1F1F8 REGIONAL INDICATOR SYMBOL LETTER S \ UTF-8: f0 9f 87 b8 UTF-16BE: d83cddf8 Decimal: 🇸 \ 🇸 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
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00:32:02 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> b_jonas: bf interpreters/compilers <-- pretty sure that's rdebath's job hth
00:32:46 * oerjan notes how never using capitals cleverly avoids having to remember how rdebath capitalizes his username
00:33:00 <oerjan> there it happens again
00:33:34 <oerjan> whenever the first thing i write in the channel after starting irssi ends with "hth", elliott's script gives an error message
00:33:50 <oerjan> and only if it's the first thing
00:34:25 <oerjan> actually it gives the same error message twice hth
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00:39:50 <shachaf> oerjan: You never use capitals?
00:42:51 <oerjan> . o O ( OKAYSHUNALLY )
00:44:08 <APic> Better Capitals than Capitalists.
00:44:28 <shachaf> Capital for the Capitalists
00:44:40 <shachaf> That's the motto of capitalism, I think.
00:46:56 <oerjan> shockingly, communion for the communists is not as popular
00:51:13 <APic> Shell okay, Ingenieur.
00:53:02 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, robots, cigars, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:53:18 <HackEgo> lambek's lemma? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:56:26 <oerjan> `learn A cigar is either a penis or just a cigar, dependent on Freud's current mood.
00:56:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'cigar': A cigar is either a penis or just a cigar, dependent on Freud's current mood.
00:57:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It can also depend on whether or not the person who has the cigar is Bill Clinton
00:58:15 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/cigars, //' wisdom/tanebvention
00:58:38 <oerjan> i've just concluded it cannot be a tanebvention
00:58:49 <shachaf> well, it depends on freud's current mood
00:59:01 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: see last sentence of `? tanebvention hth
00:59:37 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
01:01:52 <oerjan> I'M UNCLEAR ON YOUR REASONING
01:02:06 <oerjan> also what's happening to my connection
01:03:39 <APic> ,o0(The Vision is unclear)
01:04:27 <oerjan> <shachaf> `addquote <mauris> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW <-- surely that must have been _somewhere_ in HackEgo?
01:04:43 <oerjan> possibly in character form, though...
01:04:59 <oerjan> `` grep -i snowman wisdom/*
01:05:21 <HackEgo> wisdom/☃:Frosty the Snowman / had a very shiny nose / And everywhere that Frosty went / the nose was sure to go. \ grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
01:05:47 <oerjan> `` grep -i snowman wisdom/* 2>/dev/null
01:05:51 <HackEgo> wisdom/☃:Frosty the Snowman / had a very shiny nose / And everywhere that Frosty went / the nose was sure to go. \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
01:05:58 <shachaf> `` file bin/UnicodeData.txt
01:06:00 <HackEgo> bin/UnicodeData.txt: ASCII text
01:06:08 <oerjan> `unicode SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
01:06:26 <HackEgo> /cat: : No such file or directory
01:06:29 <shachaf> `` grep -i snowman bin/UnicodeData.txt
01:06:30 <HackEgo> 2603;SNOWMAN;So;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;; \ 26C4;SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW;So;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;; \ 26C7;BLACK SNOWMAN;So;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;;
01:06:52 <FireFly> `culprits bin/UnicodeData.txt
01:06:55 <HackEgo> tswett tswett Jafet Jafet Jafet
01:07:01 <oerjan> hm doesn't look good, unless something is broken by unicode
01:07:52 <oerjan> oh well, i suppose it wasn't there, then.
01:08:03 <HackEgo> 1260) <mauris> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
01:08:52 <oerjan> oh wait `wisdom doesn't look inside files
01:08:58 <HackEgo> zombiecheney/ZombieCheney lives under a bridge.
01:08:58 <HackEgo> word/word (Microsoft Word) was a text-editor for animated texts but not anymore.
01:09:03 <HackEgo> htdh/HtDH is a classic text on How to Design Hotdogs or possibly Hogprams. It is all about functional condiments, and was co-authored by Herence Tao and Don Ho.
01:09:03 <HackEgo> browser/A browser is a Gopher client for convenient access to Gopher services and documents.
01:09:03 <HackEgo> d-module/D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
01:09:06 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/zombiecheney
01:09:07 <oerjan> `` grep -i ⛄ wisdom/* 2>/dev/null
01:09:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46154&oldid=45040 * Hppavilion1 * (+115) Added GUWhy
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01:09:26 <HackEgo> oren_ ZombieCheney ZombieCheney hppavilion1
01:09:32 <HackEgo> wisdom/haiku:🀨や⛄ \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
01:09:48 <shachaf> I'm just going to leave it in quotes.
01:11:38 <HackEgo> 8ballreplies \ autowelcome_status \ awesome \ cat \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ dict-words \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello2.c \ hello.c \ lua \ maze \ maze.c \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ units.dat \ WordData
01:11:50 <HackEgo> brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fizziecoin.jpg \ fueue.c \ ploki \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ u8tbl.c \ ul.emm
01:12:22 <oerjan> `` grep -i unicodedata bin/*
01:12:25 <HackEgo> bin/icode:import unicodedata \ bin/icode:s = u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ bin/multicode:import os, glob, sys, unicodedata, locale, gzip, re, traceback, encodings \ bin/multicode: properties['name'] = unicodedata.name(ch, '') \ bin/m
01:12:54 <oerjan> `` grep -i 'unicodedata\.txt' bin/*
01:12:57 <HackEgo> bin/multicode: HomeUnicodeData = os.path.join(HomeDir, "UnicodeData.txt") \ bin/multicode: UnicodeDataFileNames = [HomeUnicodeData, '/usr/share/unicode/UnicodeData.txt', '/usr/share/unidata/UnicodeData.txt', '/hackenv/bin/UnicodeData.txt'] + \ \ bin/multicode: glob.glob('/usr/share/perl/*/unicore/UnicodeData.txt') + \ \ bin/multicode:
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01:13:42 <shachaf> But multicode looks in HomeDir?
01:13:48 <shachaf> `` grep HomeDir bin/multicode
01:13:49 <oerjan> `` grep -l -i 'unicodedata\.txt' bin/*
01:13:49 <HackEgo> HomeDir = os.path.expanduser('~/.unicode') \ HomeUnicodeData = os.path.join(HomeDir, "UnicodeData.txt") \ HomeUnihanData = os.path.join(HomeDir, "Unihan*")
01:14:26 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access .unicode: No such file or directory
01:14:35 <oerjan> how can that even work
01:14:39 <shachaf> `` python -c "import os; print os.path.expanduser('~/.unicode')"
01:16:12 <oerjan> huh i did not know that
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01:16:45 <oerjan> i guess it avoids accidentally adding junk
01:16:53 <APic> /tmp is open for Everyone B-)
01:17:15 <APic> Mostly even darn fast.
01:17:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/multicode
01:18:00 <oerjan> HackEgo seems a bit slow
01:18:12 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import os, sys \ import unicodedata \ s = u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ if u"DUNNO" in s: \ os.execvp("multicode", ["multicode"] + sys.argv[1:]) \ else: \ print s
01:18:42 <oerjan> right, unidecode falls back to multicode
01:19:08 <HackEgo> U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW \ UTF-8: e2 9b 84 UTF-16BE: 26c4 Decimal: ⛄ \ ⛄ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
01:19:22 <oerjan> and the command _does_ work, somehow.
01:20:57 <shachaf> `` grep hackenv bin/multicode # hth
01:20:59 <HackEgo> UnicodeDataFileNames = [HomeUnicodeData, '/usr/share/unicode/UnicodeData.txt', '/usr/share/unidata/UnicodeData.txt', '/hackenv/bin/UnicodeData.txt'] + \
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01:26:52 <oerjan> `` run sed -i 's!bin/UnicodeD!share/UnicodeD!' bin/multicode; mv {bin,share}/UnicodeD*
01:27:01 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's!bin/UnicodeD!share/UnicodeD!' bin/multicode; mv {bin,share}/UnicodeD*
01:27:03 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `bin/UnicodeD*': No such file or directory
01:27:27 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/Unic*: No such file or directory
01:27:35 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access share/Unic*: No such file or directory
01:28:42 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/Unic*: No such file or directory
01:29:07 <oerjan> wait, is that an illegal use of globs
01:29:28 <oerjan> `` grep hackenv bin/multicode #
01:29:28 <HackEgo> UnicodeDataFileNames = [HomeUnicodeData, '/usr/share/unicode/UnicodeData.txt', '/usr/share/unidata/UnicodeData.txt', '/hackenv/share/UnicodeData.txt'] + \
01:29:58 <shachaf> you might want to rename share/UnicodeD* hth
01:31:19 <oerjan> hmph IE cannot look at the diff for my first command without crashing
01:31:56 <oerjan> `` mv share/UnicodeD{*,ata.txt}
01:32:47 <oerjan> `multicode `` grep hackenv bin/multicode #
01:32:55 <HackEgo> U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T \ UTF-8: 74 UTF-16BE: 0074 Decimal: t \ t (T) \ Uppercase: U+0054 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
01:35:22 <oerjan> ok so the confusion was: `` run ... ; ... actually _does_ run the part after the ; so the file _was_ moved, which explains the error message on the second attempt. but the target filename was wrong because i misthought how the globs were expanded.
01:37:18 <oerjan> also in the panic i forgot `` a couple times.
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01:49:55 <hppavilion[1]> Remember that time I started an @tell message to someone with "so"?
01:51:54 <oerjan> i guess it worked out, then
01:52:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46155&oldid=44827 * LegionMammal978 * (+1) golfing
01:53:15 <lambdabot> ##categorytheory ##logic ##manatee ##megaharem ##proggit ##scalaz ##villagegreen #agda #archlinux-haskell #aurapm #bfpg #cplusplus.com #csa_uva #darcs #diagrams #dreamlinux-es #esoteric #fedora-haskell #fp@nith #friendly-coders #functionaljava #gentoo-haskell #gentoo-uy #ghc #hackage #happs #haskell #haskell-arcade #haskell-beginners #haskell-
01:53:15 <lambdabot> blah #haskell-books #haskell-br #haskell-by #haskell-cn #haskell-fr #haskell-freebsd #haskell-game #haskell-gsoc #haskell-id #haskell-in-depth #haskell-infrastructure #haskell-lens #haskell-llvm #haskell-overflow #haskell-pl #haskell-soc #haskell.au #haskell.cz #haskell.de #haskell.dut #haskell.es #haskell.fi #haskell.hr #haskell.it #haskell.jp #
01:53:15 <lambdabot> haskell.no #haskell.ru #haskell.se #haskell.tw #haskell.vn #haskell_ru #hledger #hscraft-srv #jhc #jtiger #learnanycomputerlanguage #learnmath #learnprogramming #ledger #lpmc #lw-prog #lysa #macosx #macosxdev #mainehackerclub #nicta-course #numerical-haskell #plaimi #rosettacode #scala #scalaz #scannedinavian #snapframework #tanuki #unicycling #
01:56:07 <oerjan> unicycling is, of course, heavily haskell-based.
01:56:53 <izabera> dafuq is #archlinux-haskell
01:57:10 <oerjan> @ask Taneb did you ever learn to unicycle properly and did you bring lambdabot into that channel
01:57:33 <oerjan> izabera: channels about using haskell on those platforms, presumably?
01:57:57 <shachaf> oerjan: shapr is all about unicycling hth
01:59:21 * lambdabot hits with a hammer, so they breaks into a thousand pieces
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02:02:13 <oerjan> it's a transcendental number hth
02:03:42 <tswett> So, let me see. Places pi appears.
02:03:56 <tswett> The roots of the sine function are at multiples of pi.
02:04:17 <tswett> The sine function is, of course, defined by a pretty simple alternating series.
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02:05:00 <tswett> You can define it as any of several obvious integrals.
02:05:36 <tswett> There are some generalized continued fractions for it, which seem to tend to involve squares of odd numbers.
02:06:04 <oerjan> values of the riemann zeta function at even numbers
02:08:04 <shachaf> I used to think they were just this field with some fancy properties, but according to reliable sources there are many other characterizations of them.
02:08:10 <mad> heh, I just read the "unum" number format paper... some guy proposing variable sized floating point... the paper is interesting except that variable size wipes out all potential benefits
02:08:10 <shachaf> And if anything some of those other ones are more fundamental.
02:08:24 <tswett> The sum of the squares of the reciprocals of the odd numbers is pi^2/8. Why's that?
02:09:10 <oerjan> gamma functions of n/2 where n is odd involve pi
02:09:42 <tswett> The arctan function can give you pi, and it's another simple alternating series.
02:11:19 <oerjan> tswett: pretty sure that second last follows from a case of the zeta function
02:12:30 <oerjan> just take zeta(2) - 1/4*zeta(2), i think
02:12:49 <oerjan> (all minus the even ones)
02:13:18 <tswett> So I'm seeing four pretty basic functions which are all related to pi: sine, arctan, gamma, and zeta.
02:14:41 <tswett> arctan is an alternating series which gives you pi. zeta is a positive-term series which gives you pi (more or less). sine is an alternating series that *takes* pi and does something fancy.
02:14:42 <oerjan> arctan is really just sine tweaked and inverted
02:15:02 <tswett> And then gamma... is important.
02:16:23 <oerjan> also it appears in the normal distribution as part of the scale factor
02:17:49 <oerjan> which follows from integrating exp(-x^2)
02:19:44 <oerjan> (for which there's a pretty trick using polar coordinates)
02:20:27 <tswett> I guess I'd like to see a good proof of "the pi theorem"—that whether you define pi using sine, arctan, gamma, or zeta, you get the same number.
02:21:14 <oerjan> well as i implied sine vs. arctan is pretty trivial
02:21:39 <oerjan> it's just because tan has the same period as sin, and can be easily written in terms of it.
02:22:02 <tswett> All right, let's discount... one or the other. I'm gonna say let's discount sine.
02:22:41 <oerjan> oh and exp is periodic with period i*pi, which is also equivalent
02:23:01 <oerjan> that's probably in a sense _more_ fundamental than either of sin and arctan
02:23:46 <tswett> So now it's just a matter of proving that the arctan pi equals the gamma pi, and that the gamma pi equals the zeta pi, and that the zeta pi equals the arctan pi, and that these three proofs, when put together, yield a trivial proof that the arctan pi equals the arctan pi.
02:25:18 <oerjan> i suspect it might be a better idea to follow the connection used in the standard proofs for gamma and zeta, whatever those are.
02:25:23 <tswett> Prove that 6 zeta(2) = gamma(1/2)^4. Go!
02:25:53 <oerjan> and i somewhat doubt zeta and gamma are directly connected
02:26:18 <tswett> Good. You can omit that leg of the proof and then you don't need the filler cell.
02:26:23 <oerjan> fortunately, i have no idea how to prove either hth
02:26:25 <tswett> The 2-cell that fills the triangle.
02:27:41 * oerjan swats tswett for using d for "don't" -----###
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02:47:18 <boily> poke poke poke poke poke ♪
02:50:41 <boily> . o O ( my memory is safe. he can't peek me. mwah ah ah )
03:02:11 <boily> he hasn't rebooted. maybe tomorrow.
03:02:30 -!- boily has quit (Quit: UNDERVOLTED CHICKEN).
03:03:19 <oerjan> @tell boily CURSE YOU, ESCAPING CHICKEN MAN
03:08:06 <oerjan> i take it you join in the curse
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03:29:27 <quintopia> in general, it is rude to join and part within 15 minutes. if you can't talk, don't show up to talk
03:29:59 <quintopia> oerjan: do you know the difference between pleonasm, neoplasm, and planemos?
03:30:26 <oerjan> i think i've heard the first word
03:30:39 <lambdabot> *** "pleonasm" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:30:39 <lambdabot> n 1: using more words than necessary; "a tiny little child"
03:30:47 <quintopia> ah, so at some time in the past before now you've heard pleonasm before
03:31:07 <lambdabot> *** "neoplasm" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:31:07 <lambdabot> n 1: an abnormal new mass of tissue that serves no purpose [syn:
03:32:00 <quintopia> it's a neologism...i'd never heard it before tonight
03:32:08 <oerjan> so technically you could have all 3 simultaneously
03:32:21 <oerjan> it would be rather yucky, though
03:32:22 <quintopia> i was astounded that three such obscue words could be anagrams
03:33:00 <oerjan> it's more likely than 3 common words, no
03:33:33 <quintopia> i'd expect any word that has an anagram to have at least one common anagram
03:33:36 <oerjan> well conditional on length
03:33:41 <quintopia> maybe my expectations do not reflect reality
03:34:02 <quintopia> ah yes, i suppose with longer words, the probability goes up
03:34:05 <oerjan> but there are more obscure words than common ones, so more opportunities to get a hit hth
03:34:24 <oerjan> i'd have thought it goes down.
03:34:44 <oerjan> hm or maybe there's a maximum
03:34:51 <quintopia> in my scrabble searching, every word i've found with anagrams has had at least one of them fairly common, but then, i mostly only search 6-8 letter words
03:35:21 <quintopia> oerjan: i meant the conditional probability: "if an anagram exists, it's also obscure"
03:38:17 <shachaf> whoa, some words have all sorts of anagrams
03:38:41 <shachaf> slater alerts alters artels estral laster rastle ratels salter slater staler stelar talers tarsel
03:39:18 <shachaf> tangiers tasering tigreans angriest astringe ganister gantries granites gratines ingrates rangiest reasting stearing
04:29:08 <Sgeo_> Is there anything interesting about Urbit? Besides the creator having not so great politics, I mean
04:29:24 <coppro> ugh thinking about monads is hard
04:31:55 <izabera> Sgeo_: what politics are you talking about?
04:32:43 <coppro> shachaf: the one I am trying to write
04:33:11 <coppro> I might use Control.Monad.Operation but am trying to figure out if I need it
04:33:11 <shachaf> well it's just a special case of some continuationy codensity thing hth
04:33:32 <Sgeo_> izabera, the creator of Urbit is the person who kickstarted Neoreactionism
04:35:29 <Sgeo_> As far as I know, it's something along the lines of democracy being bad and monarchy being better
04:35:38 <coppro> shachaf: it's probably just a protomofuncorioid
04:36:01 <izabera> http://techcrunch.com/2013/11/22/geeks-for-monarchy/
04:38:05 <mad> let's see saudi arabia show us how well that works
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04:51:42 <Sgeo_> "You think that’s a joke, but in 1987 the dictator of Burma made all existing bank notes illegitimate so he could print new ones that were multiples of nine. Because, you see, he liked that number. As Wikipedia helpfully points out, “The many Burmese whose saved money in the old large denominations lost their life savings.” For every perfectly rational economic agent out there, there’s another guy who’s really into nines."
04:55:50 <oerjan> wow wikipedia confirms it
04:56:42 <pikhq> But... Wow, proponents of monarchy. As an actual practice.
04:57:51 <pikhq> I suppose it might make some amount of sense if you assume perfect monarchs?
04:57:57 <pikhq> ... But that's hopelessly naive.
04:58:35 <Sgeo_> AFAICT, it assumes powerful (enough to ignore popular opinion) monarchs mostly interested in money
04:58:56 <Sgeo_> With the assumption that a monarch that feels safe has no reason to suppress speech etc
04:59:01 <pikhq> Alas, money is not utility.
04:59:20 <pikhq> Money is occasionally useful as a proxy for utility in models.
05:00:23 <mad> yeah that's a perfect plan for a ruler totally disconnected from the needs of the country
05:00:41 <Sgeo_> "Fnargl has no reason to ban free speech: let people plot against him. He’s omnipotent and invulnerable; it’s not going to work. Banning free speech would just force him to spend money on jackbooted thugs which he could otherwise be spending on precious, precious gold. He has no reason to torture dissidents. What are they going to do if left unmolested? Overthrow him?"
05:00:49 <pikhq> It also naively assumes that monarchs interested in money are any good at it.
05:01:01 <pikhq> All evidence suggests that people aren't that good at it.
05:01:14 <pikhq> Democracy appears to work primarily by failing to not work.
05:01:37 <Sgeo_> "Imagine the US presidency as a dynasty, the Line of Washington. The Line of Washington has currently undergone forty-three dynastic successions without a single violent dispute. As far as I know, this is unprecedented among dynasties – unless it be the dynasty of Japanese Emperors, who managed the feat only after their power was made strictly ceremonial. The closest we’ve ever come to any kind of squabble over who should be Presid
05:01:37 <Sgeo_> ent was Bush vs. Gore, which was decided within a month in a court case, which both sides accepted amicably."
05:01:42 <pikhq> Which is *frustrating* to watch, but I'll take it over everything else we've tried.
05:02:04 <mad> once your society is big and complex you need some decoupling and flexibility... democracy provides that
05:02:47 <pikhq> True, but there's lots of systems for it. Lots of things have had needs for it.
05:02:58 <pikhq> (if anything more than we do now: higher communication latency)
05:03:39 <mad> you have to spread the power at least somewhat to get things done
05:04:10 <mad> your engineer needs some independence to do the right thing
05:04:22 <mad> otherwise you have north korea
05:05:00 <mad> democracy is probably one of the reasons why the west is ahead of china
05:07:31 <pikhq> At the very least, democracy would not have resulted in the Great Leap Forward which appears to have done little but destroy a lot of economic value in China.
05:07:36 <mad> this guy is making the same mistake as libertarians... assume abstract perfect actors, rather than deal with the real human and make incremental improvement over incremental improvement like democracy
05:09:15 <pikhq> As I understand it this whole thing is an obscure outgrowth of the libertarian thought space, so that makes sense.
05:10:06 <mad> this is basically internet atrocity tourism :D
05:10:35 <pikhq> If only I had popcorn.
05:14:19 <Sgeo_> "Could a country be ruled as a joint-stock corporation?
05:14:19 <Sgeo_> This is the plan of Mencius Moldbug"
05:15:26 <mad> it's like looking at stormfront
05:16:32 <quintopia> how did this become moldbug channel. christ.
05:16:41 <Sgeo_> I was curious about Urbit
05:18:02 <pikhq> quintopia: At least it's not moldbug-supporters channel.
05:18:11 <pikhq> It's "oh my god WTF moldbug" channel.
05:18:31 <pikhq> Seriously, those ideas are bad and moldbug should feel bad.
05:19:52 <quintopia> tbf, i think moldbug's tyrant is a superintelligent AI or something like that, so your objections about perfect actors would seem to be handled.
05:20:02 <quintopia> not supporting, just not refuting along those lines
05:21:39 <Sgeo_> lol "Our second layer of protection is that the king will preserve human rights and maintain equity among persons. I wonder if the person writing this has ever read Mencius Moldbug. He has some pretty interesting arguments against human rights and the equity of persons, and I’d be interested in hearing a debate between the two of them."
05:21:56 <pikhq> quintopia: I would have much fewer arguments if we had a superintelligent AI, which we can assume to be an approximately perfect actor.
05:22:25 <mad> human rights and equity come from power
05:22:29 <pikhq> *Though also irrelevant*, because a superintelligent AI should be modeled as effectively a tyrant regardless: it will perform those actions which maximize its utility function.
05:22:49 <mad> remove that power and rights turn into rights on paper only
05:22:56 <mad> just look at soviet russia
05:23:06 <pikhq> Making the whole thing fall into a bunch of wankery about "wouldn't superintelligent AI be neat you guys?"
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05:40:04 <quintopia> pikhq: it remains interesting when there are those who disagree that it would be neat
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05:55:46 <Sgeo_> https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/40qkxq/desert_bus_20_coming_to_oculus_rift_and/
06:05:34 <Sgeo_> So, Urbit seems like it changes from what most programmers no for no good reason
06:05:58 <Sgeo_> Which should make it a toy. But it also sounds like it has some eye on being practical
06:07:00 <Sgeo_> Hmm https://github.com/tibru/tibru
06:08:14 <mad> "Someone just emailed and pointed out that he couldn't check out Urbit on Windows, because it has a file con.c"
06:08:49 <Sgeo_> That sounds like Windows's fault
06:09:35 <oerjan> it's also a well known fault
06:09:47 <mad> yeah it's a classic windows wart
06:11:13 <mad> like... anything that touches .bat files
06:11:41 <pikhq> It's quite a terrible Windows wart.
06:11:56 <Sgeo_> https://vimeo.com/75312418 1:41 their chat system has political banners to keep everyone in the bubble they prefer
06:12:25 <mad> in terms of actual hair pulling I think I'd go for the win32 utf16 equivalents to stdlib functions
06:13:26 <mad> bubbles are bad
06:13:40 <mad> bubbles grow into cults
06:13:45 <pikhq> mad: Doesn't help -- this wart holds for all of Win32.
06:14:02 <pikhq> If you wanna get around it you have to use the undocumented NT APIs.
06:15:46 <mad> like, that whole debacle turns into stuff like, well...
06:16:15 <mad> at work we have a type that's typedefed as std::wstring on win32 (utf16) and std::string on osx (utf8)
06:16:58 <mad> matching with façade pseudio-stdlib functions that use those for filenames etc
06:17:12 <pikhq> I don't have the foggiest clue what my work does for code that has to run on Windows.
06:17:58 <Sgeo_> I should probably look at Urbit when I have more time
06:18:05 <mad> at my previous job before that I mostly did game and game-tooling code
06:18:23 <mad> most tools had a "absolutely no utf chars in filenames unless you like to cry" rule
06:18:58 <mad> because often some parts of the toolchain were in python
06:19:14 <pikhq> Admittedly, at my current job I write shockingly little *code*...
06:19:36 <mad> which just completely bails if you ever put as much as an é inside a string
06:20:10 <Sgeo_> "The choice of 0 for true and 1 for false is _wrong:_"
06:20:31 <Sgeo_> "It's been sorta mentioned elsewhere on the thread, but there is another (IMO simpler) mathematical intuition behind 0:1 :: false:true that doesn't involve any lambda fundamentalism. It's the algebraic analogy disjunction:conjunction :: addition:multiplication :: union:intersection :: ... which also turns up pretty often in computing.
06:21:13 <Sgeo_> Although even [name omitted] agrees that it was a bad decision in retrospect, due to need for C compatibility
06:22:10 <mad> 0 for true sounds like he's doing it on purpose
06:23:24 <Sgeo_> He did do it on purpose, to be different
06:31:36 * mad scratches his head
06:31:52 <mad> what's special with that thing anyways
06:31:59 <mad> other than being purposefully weird
06:32:12 <oerjan> hey it's bash compatible
06:37:29 <mad> the other pie in the sky system some guy linked to today is : http://sites.ieee.org/scv-cs/files/2013/03/Right-SizingPrecision1.pdf
06:37:35 <mad> variable sized floating point
06:38:04 <mad> intended to be implemented in hardware
06:46:42 <mad> hm, this guy says that the point of urbit is to serve as some sort of networked architecture by using functional programming to isolate parts of the program so they can run distributed
06:46:45 <mad> ...I think
06:47:54 <mad> My answer to that is that a distributed programming language is probably a good idea if you can solve enough of the technical challenges to make it useful
06:49:38 <mad> And that if you want to isolate parts of the problem... hm... I think that eventually someone will take something like C++ (or java or C# or something) and turn it into a no-side-effects (ie no-aliasing ie no-pointers-or-references ie everything-is-copy-on-write) language
06:50:29 <mad> and when that happens that language will be useful since it allows for auto-vectorization of code (if stars align)
06:55:21 <mad> what would absolutely-no-aliasing-no-side-effects-no-pointers-no-references c++ look like anyways
06:57:30 <Sgeo_> "Hoon is a strict combinator language that avoids mathematical theory and notation. It aims at a mechanical, imperative feel."
06:58:12 <Sgeo_> Is there necessarily a difference between a functional language that feels imperative and an imperative language? AS I've seen argued, C is pure functional, it's only a description of a program to execute, not an actual execution
06:58:18 <Sgeo_> (I might be wrong in my restatement
07:04:00 <mad> the difference is side effects, no?
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07:05:52 <mad> C can be defined as a series of reads and writes to memory
07:06:22 <mad> that's not functional no matter how you put it I think
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07:07:20 <mad> also a functional language manipulates objects that contain potentially inifinite information no?
07:07:38 <mad> whereas C only deals with fixed size objects
07:13:14 <hppavilion[1]> If a set-theoretical "universe" U has finitely many elements
07:13:34 <hppavilion[1]> Then a set in that universe can be represented as a bitstring of length #U
07:14:16 <myname> well, yeah. that's usually how you show P(U) has 2^#U elements
07:14:30 <hppavilion[1]> Where each bit represents the presence or absence of a given element (and that bit consistently means that element, regardless of which set it is)
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07:14:42 <hppavilion[1]> And all the set-theoretic operations can be represented as the standard bitwise operations
07:15:41 <hppavilion[1]> s^C = ~bs(s), sUt = bs(s)|bs(t), snt = bs(s)&bs(t), s^t = bs(s)^bs(t)
07:15:54 <hppavilion[1]> AND that allows a whole host of new and strange set operations
07:16:22 <hppavilion[1]> e.g. Nunion, Nintersection, and Nymmetric Nifference
07:17:25 <hppavilion[1]> AND, if the set is well-ordered, you get the truly strange concept of "set addition", where the bitstrings must be organized in element order, and s+t is just adding the bitstrings
07:18:25 <hppavilion[1]> And, of course, set subtraction (NTBCW set difference), set multiplication, set division, etc.
07:19:18 <myname> well, of corse you can do it, but what do you want to do with it?
07:22:07 <mad> the other thing about this urbit thing is that it assumes that the traditional programming languages are irremediably flawed
07:23:26 <myname> hppavilion[1]: well, most of the time you still have a goal while being eso
07:24:41 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I don't know. Maybe it's good for hashing?
07:26:01 <hppavilion[1]> Transmit a sequence of characters by converting them to an array of arrays, then add a constant and JSON dump it?
07:26:17 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, and replace each bit with a random word from a big dictionary
07:26:38 <hppavilion[1]> (a random /fixed/ word that can be chosen using the key)
07:28:43 <zgrep> mad: The best way I've seen it described is as a political idea that has been expressed through technology.
07:29:11 <zgrep> (idea, ideology? something more or less like that.)
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07:30:39 <mroman> Executing install/build scripts is actually incredibly dangerous
07:31:12 <mroman> if that thing contains just something as simple as rm -rf ~ you're fucked
07:31:20 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 59m 17s ago: <mroman> b_jonas: bf interpreters/compilers <-- pretty sure that's rdebath's job hth
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07:45:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: as i'm _sure_ i recently saw somewhere, perhaps here, you can, in fact, represent any recursively finite set uniformly in that way. the number n has bit i set iff the set represented by n has the set represented by i as element.
07:46:24 <oerjan> this gives a bijection between recursively finite sets and natural numbers.
07:48:21 <oerjan> (s/recursive/hereditarily/ to use standard math nomenclature)
07:48:58 <mroman> recursively finite sets = powersets?
07:49:20 <shachaf> oerjan: i was talking about the integers being a free semilattice generated by powers of 2 at one point
07:49:32 <oerjan> finite sets whose elements are of the same kind.
07:49:56 <shachaf> but that doesn't sound like what you're talking about
07:50:00 <oerjan> mroman: i don't see what powersets have to do with it, except for also being included
07:50:38 <oerjan> shachaf: well i thought it was someone here. perhaps zzo38.
07:51:01 <oerjan> also it's too simple not to be well known. perhaps i read it somewhere else.
07:51:22 <shachaf> i'm honored to belong to the same equivalence class as zzo38 in your mind
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08:00:44 <mad> on urbit: ""Or maybe someone will code a MMORPG that does amazingly detailed rendering of algorithmically created dungeons by using spare cycles on the machines of game players (actually delegating the gaming firms core servers out onto customer hardware).""
08:01:11 <mad> answer: ha. no.
08:04:43 <mroman> what's up with all the "*** react to ***" videos
08:05:14 <mroman> Seems like old people making fun you young people :D
08:05:35 <mroman> where old roughly means like uhm 10 years older than the ones reacting
08:12:05 <mroman> that reminds me that I still have my old gameboy
08:13:35 <mroman> wait... when did the N64 come out?
08:14:12 <mroman> oh ok.. that explains why 19 years old don't know it
08:15:55 * oerjan has a feeling Tatham's Filling puzzle has become more subtle
08:16:49 <oerjan> it seems like it now creates puzzles where you must deduce larger regions with none of the initial numbers in. i just got one of size 5.
08:17:30 <oerjan> previously it almost never went above 2
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09:28:44 <SopaXT> In Conway's GameOfLife, HWSS resembles a duck at stage 2
09:29:22 <SopaXT> It should be renamed to Heavyweight Duck Ship
09:34:00 <SopaXT> b_jonas, http://conwaylife.com/wiki/Middleweight_spaceship
09:35:39 <SopaXT> http://conwaylife.com/wiki/Heavyweight_spaceship
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10:31:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46156&oldid=46152 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Hello, world! */ since when did a hello world program end with a carriage return and no newline?
10:32:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello, world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46157&oldid=46153 * Ais523 * (-202) Undo revision 46153: I disagree that capital W is the most common (see the article's title for another opinion…), and in any case, we probably shouldn't be trying to standardise the spelling
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11:06:42 <olsner> CR-no-LF is what Mac used to do, isn't it?
11:07:13 <ais523> but many programming languages swap \n and \r on output
11:07:27 <ais523> in much the same way that Windows libcs often translate \n to and from \r\n
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11:13:38 <APic> Would be very dowdy if all Systems used the same Encodings for Newlines. ☺
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11:18:05 <Taneb> Imagine living in a world where people would design a single way of doing things and then use it
11:18:56 <Taneb> @tell oerjan No, but I still own a unicycle, and no (for clashing with greentext format) but we have our own lambdabotish bot
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11:32:52 <lambdabot> oerjan said 8h 29m 32s ago: CURSE YOU, ESCAPING CHICKEN MAN
11:33:16 <boily> @tell oerjan I'm not *that* escaping.
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11:45:20 <olsner> boily: don't you escape every day?
11:50:59 <boily> both. I escape at least twice a day.
11:55:09 <HackEgo> rdf/RDF is something zzo38 knows about.
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11:58:13 <boily> @tell nooga you have escaped for too long.
11:58:21 <HackEgo> amigamml/Only fools such as zzo38 and so on try to use AmigaMML on a PC. Real Men try to use AmigaMML on a Amiga computer. \ https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml/wiki/Frequently_and_unfrequently_asked_questions
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11:58:35 <boily> really, the wisdom is zzoic today.
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12:43:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46158&oldid=46155 * LegionMammal978 * (-20) more golfing
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12:57:26 <mroman> what's the laziest way to store stuff in python
12:57:51 <mroman> like data = {'a': 12, 'b': {'b': '"b'}}; print data;
12:58:54 <mroman> >>> eval(str(data)) == data
12:58:57 <mroman> seems to work at least
13:13:05 <Deewiant> pickle is the canonical slightly less lazy way
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13:53:00 <fizzie> That didn't make too much sense when interpreting lazy in the lazy evaluation sense.
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14:15:20 <mroman> I meant lazy as in "lazy af programmer"
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15:47:29 <b_jonas> M:tG OGW set FAQ is released: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/oath-gatewatch-release-notes-2016-01-13
15:53:41 <quintopia> mroman: json.dump and json.load. yw
16:03:55 <Taneb> b_jonas, I *may* be going to a prerelease for that
16:04:09 <Taneb> If I can find a way that doesn't violate my "never pay for magic" rule
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16:45:05 <b_jonas> Taneb: why do you have such a rule?
16:45:22 <Taneb> b_jonas, so I don't spend all my money on magic
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16:50:04 <b_jonas> Taneb: do you practice some other hobby of the kind that makes you spend lots of money to always buy the latest and greatest of something?
16:50:33 <Taneb> b_jonas, no, and I don't really want to
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16:51:40 <Taneb> The last two video games I played were from 2007 and 2008, hardly the latest and greatest
16:51:45 <Taneb> I got them both on sale, too
16:52:26 <b_jonas> Taneb: and you don't build a new expensive computer or two for home every year?
16:52:52 <Taneb> I built a computer in 2011 or so, and got another second hand last year
16:52:57 <Taneb> It serves my purpose
16:52:58 <b_jonas> As I hear, parenting is the easiest expensive hobby to get into.
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16:53:29 <Taneb> Well, I think it'd be easier if a) I had some sort of relationship partner person, and b) I weren't asexual
16:54:11 <b_jonas> I thought the second one was irrelevant, but ok.
16:55:02 <Taneb> Well, it means I'm less likely to have sex and fall into parenting accidentally
16:55:15 <Taneb> Other methods, I'm told, are harder to get into
16:56:19 <Taneb> I don't think I'll become a parent any time soon
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17:25:07 <mroman> b_jonas: most expensive probably
17:25:12 <mroman> but easiest to get into?
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17:30:57 <mauris> probably drugzz are easier and the sky is the limit as far as expenses go
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18:28:18 <HackEgo> shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj/shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj is the reason why the USA don't use the metric system.
18:29:32 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj
18:29:53 <HackEgo> fiora/Fiora is half JRPG fangirl, half SIMD dork, and all sucrose. She's a sous-chef who shushes sushi.
18:30:03 <HackEgo> fsm/An FSM is a state machine with noodly appendages.
18:41:22 <HackEgo> mapole/A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
18:41:46 <HackEgo> intercal/INTERCAL has excellent features for modular program for the enterprise market.
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20:40:28 <Taneb> Because the lecturer isn't much good, I'm trying to teach my self Character Theory
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21:06:16 <HackEgo> [U+26C7 BLACK SNOWMAN] [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW] [U+2603 SNOWMAN] [U+0020 SPACE]
21:06:25 <HackEgo> [U+26C7 BLACK SNOWMAN] [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW] [U+2603 SNOWMAN]
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22:07:58 <myname> why isn't snowman without snow the default?
22:08:23 <HackEgo> 1260) <mauris> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
22:11:11 <izabera> myname: unicode was developed in alaska
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22:13:24 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott ais523 ais523 boily
22:15:37 <Melvar> `quote bitwise cyclic tag
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22:26:49 <HackEgo> 54) * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies \ 833) <olsner> FireFly: oh, did you see ion's police reindeer? that was ... at least as on-topic as this discussion \ 1135) <Taneb> I may write a compliant interpreter just for the hell of it <FireFly> Taneb: stop complianing
22:27:39 <FireFly> I don't remember the last one
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22:29:03 <fizzie> fungot: How have you been online for so long without dropping off? I don't remember when I last had to restart you.
22:29:04 <fungot> fizzie: funny like a clown. ( do) level yet? :d or is there a function in terms of the embedded version, but it still wastes all sorts of facts about my program, cut them some slack
22:43:42 <fungot> int-e: why would i? :d did i leave that out? ( don't worry, i'd think that would work? it seems to
22:48:06 <Taneb> It was about Underload
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23:59:08 <lambdabot> Taneb said 12h 40m 12s ago: No, but I still own a unicycle, and no (for clashing with greentext format) but we have our own lambdabotish bot
23:59:08 <lambdabot> boily said 12h 25m 51s ago: I'm not *that* escaping.
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01:26:15 <oerjan> that's not very generally true.
01:27:39 <shachaf> it's only moderately generally true?
01:28:56 <oerjan> well it's true for a small, but important set of functions.
01:29:45 <shachaf> please explain and expand twh
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01:31:14 <tswett> learn hth is short for "hang that heretic".
01:31:15 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm glad we have an expert here to explicate an express answer
01:31:37 <tswett> oerjan is quite the exponent of mathematics.
01:31:39 <oerjan> tswett: hey don't reveal my secrets tdnh
01:32:33 * oerjan trying to remember the elegant proof of that fact he learned in differential equations class (maybe)
01:32:45 <tswett> twh = "that wicked heretic!"
01:32:57 <shachaf> oerjan is such an expert that e, to the xth degree, explodes with these expressions
01:33:14 <tswett> tdnh = "that demonic, nasty heretic!"
01:35:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: foolishness: not found
01:35:05 <shachaf> oerjan: come on, not even a poke from the flypoker?
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01:38:38 <tswett> It's obvious what "btw" stands for.
01:40:06 <oerjan> d(exp(-x) * y)/dx = exp(-x) * dy/dx - exp(-x) * y = 0 => exp(-x) * y = C
01:42:32 <oerjan> shachaf: i consider those alliterations, not puns. no poke, hth
01:44:09 <oerjan> <tswett> It's obvious what "btw" stands for. <-- obviously. btw do you happen to weigh more or less than a duck twh
01:44:57 <oerjan> `learn btw is short for "burn the witch".
01:45:00 <HackEgo> Learned 'btw': btw is short for "burn the witch".
01:46:28 * oerjan recalls his mother couldn't visit swimming pools because she sank like a stone. so i guess she wasn't a witch, despite all the divinations.
01:47:21 <oerjan> or well, something like that.
01:47:31 <HackEgo> Learned 'btw': btw is short for "bury the weasel"
01:47:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: excuse me, you are ruining tswett's joke tdnh
01:48:48 <oerjan> also, if you thought that when omgroflmaoing, i'm wondering about your sense of humor.
01:49:02 <hppavilion[1]> ("as a matter of fact, that did help and you just can't tell")
01:49:24 <oerjan> hey i was just getting to the a
01:49:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: When I said "omgroflmao", I wanted him to decrypt it xD
01:51:20 <hppavilion[1]> Imma make a programming language entirely like all known programming languages
01:52:20 <hppavilion[1]> But I started the message with a slash forgetting that that commands it
01:53:45 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: A language following the philosophy of intercal, but that includes INTERCAL in what it wants to avoid
01:54:05 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Also, it has some modern languages (e.g. PROLOG and Haskell and Python) in mind in its design
01:54:17 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So it's derived from taking that and not being like it
01:55:51 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: um in that case i think you mistyped your original sentence because it clearly says "like" hth
01:56:25 <oerjan> i thought it was more interesting with "like" somehow
01:56:26 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But "entirely like" is also a good idea for a language
01:56:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes, I can see how that idea would be interesting.
01:56:41 <oerjan> i mean, intercal is already done.
01:57:50 <hppavilion[1]> This is like the Wishbone of esoprogramming- adapting a classic to those who grew up on more "modern" material
02:16:56 <hppavilion[1]> Delabel is written #'labelname' or something like that
02:17:19 <hppavilion[1]> Delabel JUMPs within the AST (so more complicated than an ASM jump) to the DELABEL
02:18:24 <hppavilion[1]> Then, the exit code is produced from the earlier $'labelname' subexpression
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02:22:03 <hppavilion[1]> Possibly, another kind of label that behaves like this: (5{'lab'}-1)+('lab'#0)
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02:33:13 <hppavilion[1]> And the languages use a persistent interpreter that uses previous languages to mess with newer languages
02:33:29 <coppro> how about a language where every program is a polyglot
02:33:37 <coppro> except function calls must be from one language to the other
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04:44:31 <myname> hppavilion[2]: are you familiar with call/cc?
04:45:44 <shachaf> i,i call/cc-with-current-continuation
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05:00:45 <adu> (call/cc call/cc)
05:01:01 <adu> oops did I just break everything?
05:02:42 <oerjan> adu: no, that's fine see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Subtle_cough
05:03:20 <oerjan> it's ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc)) you need to watch out for.
05:34:41 <adu> oerjan: *mind blown*
05:49:49 * zgrep slowly collects all the pieces of adu's mind and glues them back together, because somebody has to
05:50:15 <oerjan> thank god i was afraid i'd have to do it
05:50:32 <zgrep> I got you covered... for now.
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05:56:08 <adu> zgrep: thanks :)
05:56:21 * adu feels better, now
06:02:17 <adu> hppavilion[2]!
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06:02:30 <adu> hppavilion[1]!
06:02:42 <adu> I don't know anymore
06:02:58 <myname> i'd say it's pretty close
06:03:01 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I'm making a language entirely like all known languages, INCLUDING Intercal
06:03:18 <adu> is that wise?
06:03:49 <zgrep> How about wise domes?
06:04:09 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Ah, those should really be called "Wise Spheres"
06:04:26 <zgrep> Oh, half of them are simply underground?
06:04:30 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: They encircle the entirety of the area, really. Not just the top
06:04:32 <adu> Well, I've been learning boring Python
06:04:35 <adu> https://github.com/andydude/tetration/blob/gh-pages/dl/superroot_3.ipynb
06:05:00 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Good for keeping the wisdom sealed in and fresh
06:05:18 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Would you like me to offer my trign code? Good for negative hyperoperations
06:05:26 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: I thought you said no wisdom, only `wisdom?
06:05:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: sure
06:05:57 <hppavilion[1]> adu: To be clear, "trigns" are numbers with three signs
06:06:32 * zgrep wouldn't mind knowing how to figure out what "trign code that is good for negative hyperoperations" means...
06:06:54 <adu> zgrep: start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperoperation
06:08:12 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I think I made my point last time
06:08:42 <hppavilion[1]> adu: They make negative hyperoperations logical and complete
06:08:51 <adu> hppavilion[1]: well, they would have to be perpendicular with each other, obviously
06:08:54 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Also, I don't remember your point from last time
06:09:43 <adu> my point was this: there are 3 sequences of binary operations: hyperN, hyperNlog, hyperNroot
06:10:13 <hppavilion[1]> And we can just use a piecewise function that amalgamates those together
06:10:21 <adu> and to try and make these 3 sequences into a single sequence indexed by esoteric numbers, is well, too esoteric for my tastes
06:11:18 <hppavilion[1]> adu: It's not much more eso than Imaginary Numbers, IMHO
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06:12:10 <vodkode> What is with this 'flat earth' stuff being the new thing?
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06:12:53 <hppavilion[1]> vodkode: That trend isn't too recent, at least in internet time
06:13:25 <vodkode> it's rocketed waaaay up in 2015 from what I can tell, tons upon tons of YT videos and people debating it (as if its a debate)
06:13:40 <vodkode> I have no clue what the catalyst is for this kind of nonsense
06:14:14 <hppavilion[1]> Which could be some complex metaphor I don't know about
06:16:03 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Out of curiosity, is there some logical way to do log the same way root(x, n) = x**(1/n)?
06:17:58 <hppavilion[1]> If there is, then my "trign" idea could probably be justified by lining up the trigns' properties with the relationship between them
06:18:58 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Perhaps we should turn attention away from the reals for a bit and look to the positive Gaussians
06:19:05 <mauris> well, log(x, n) = ln(x) / ln(n)
06:20:08 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: But is there any relationship with root and pow?
06:21:27 <mauris> not really! you might be thinking: root/pow form a pair the way exp/log do
06:21:50 <mauris> but while root is really a special case of pow (where the exponent is a fraction like you mentioned) that isn't true for exp/log.
06:22:01 <mauris> so there isn't a way to write one in terms of the other
06:27:02 <mauris> i guess it's a matter of perspective
06:27:04 <mauris> root-like functions are inverses of f(x) = x^n for some n
06:27:10 <mauris> log-like functions are inverses of f(x) = n^x for some n
06:28:01 <adu> hppavilion[1]: "to do log the same way"?
06:29:47 <hppavilion[1]> adu: The same way root is exponentiation to the reciprocal
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06:36:18 <hppavilion[1]> Are there any other kinds of call/<x> besides call/cc and call/em?
06:37:05 <adu> hppavilion[1]: theres the power series
06:37:27 <hppavilion[1]> You weren't referring to that question, where you xD
06:37:58 <adu> log(x) = sum((-1)^(n + 1)*(x - 1)^n/n, n=1..infinity)
06:40:03 <adu> or, my favorite, -log(1 - x) = sum(x^n/n, n=1..infinity)
06:42:02 <adu> theres also the indefinite integral
06:43:05 <adu> log(x) = ∫dx/x
07:04:06 <hppavilion[1]> Is there somewhere online I can find a massive database of the curry-howard correspondence?
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07:48:39 <hppavilion[1]> Could we roll Set Theory into Curry/Howard/Lambek on the grounds that a set can be represented as a bitstring where each bit corresponds to an item's presence in said set relative to the "universe", and since bitstrings support logical connectives naturally?
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09:32:03 <oerjan> ah the style change on aaronson's blog was something stupid wordpress did
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10:12:33 <fungot> b_jonas: also sure you won't do concurrent befunge? fizzie has managed to make a stack based imperative one, 1 pushes 1, 2
10:31:50 <Taneb> Galois Theory: why the shape of the football makes solving polynomials harder
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11:30:18 <HackEgo> bdsm/BDSM definitely isn't a kind of LARP and Taneb definitely did not invent it.
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11:33:39 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/bdsm
11:33:42 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Taneb Taneb
11:38:08 <int-e> <Taneb> `learn BDSM is just a kind of LARP <HackEgo> I knew that. <kmc> c.c <Taneb> Please do not say that I invented it
11:44:12 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. mwah ah ah.
11:47:20 <fizzie> "We have tried to send you this email as HTML (pictures and words) but it wasn’t possible. In order for you to see what we had hoped to show you please click here to view online in your browser: --"
11:47:29 <fizzie> Well, that's one way to convert your text/html emails to text/plain.
11:47:57 <fizzie> `learn HTML is just pictures and words.
11:48:01 <HackEgo> Learned 'html': HTML is just pictures and words.
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11:54:38 <b_jonas> `learn links are one of the very few HTML renderers that don't try to store a full document tree with heavyweight objects for each node just in case javascript wants to modify it later, so it's the only engine that can render those HTMLs that are automatically converted from a PDF and put each letter to a separate element.
11:54:41 <HackEgo> Learned 'link': links are one of the very few HTML renderers that don't try to store a full document tree with heavyweight objects for each node just in case javascript wants to modify it later, so it's the only engine that can render those HTMLs that are automatically converted from a PDF and put each letter to a separate element.
11:55:07 <HackEgo> links are one of the very few HTML renderers that don't try to store a full document tree with heavyweight objects for each node just in case javascript wants to modify it later, so it's the only engine that can render those HTMLs that are automatically converted from a PDF and put each letter to a separate element.
12:08:21 <boily> there is such a thing as... aaargh. ow. no. a PDF converter that put individual letters into tens of tens of thousands of millions of elements?
12:08:29 <boily> even for something that involves PDFs, that's low!
12:10:09 <b_jonas> boily: no, mostly they just put every word into an element, or each part of the word separated by kerns, so basically they put an element anywhere TeX emits a glue to the DVI
12:10:26 <b_jonas> Putting every letter to a separate element is much rarer.
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12:16:32 <ais523> b_jonas: I have a PDF-to-other-formats converter, it genuinely does use an element per letter when converting to HTML
12:16:41 <ais523> in order to get the layout on the page exactly the same
12:16:44 <ais523> this makes it mostly useless
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12:19:23 <HackEgo> BDSM definitely isn't a kind of LARP and Taneb definitely did not invent it.
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12:22:39 <b_jonas> Would a sorcery with the exact ability of Safe Passage costing {WW} be overpowered?
12:23:58 <b_jonas> ais523: the heavyweight elements is the main reason why I hate SVG used as a general vector format, as opposed to PDF. SVG basically _forces_ you to make vector drawings with tons of heavy objects.
12:25:34 <b_jonas> There's canvas of course, which doesn't do that, but canvas is worse than postscript in that documents using it need a full interpreter of a general purpose language and the document can have lots of unintended side effects besides drawing that you have to be careful about.
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12:28:20 <fizzie> The "need a full interpreter of a general purpose language" part doesn't sound that different from PostScript.
12:29:14 <fizzie> (Windows Metafiles to the rescue?)
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12:59:52 <tswett> A language unlike all other programming languages, eh?
12:59:58 <tswett> That's what I tend to go for with my languages.
13:00:14 <tswett> Proce is the one that comes to mind.
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13:03:19 <tswett> Proce as currently defined might be broken, allowing you to take advantage of discretization artifacts.
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13:09:27 <b_jonas> fizzie: the sandbox for postscript is better. canvas requires a full browser, with lots of information leaks and stuff.
13:29:06 <mroman> does it put each letter into a span or what?
13:29:16 <mroman> also the HTML file will be huge then :)
13:29:34 <mroman> > length $ "<span></span>"
13:29:43 <mroman> that's at least 14 bytes per letter
13:30:04 <mroman> that's pretty much as terrible as my image to html converter
13:30:24 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/output.html
13:30:27 <mroman> but at least it looks good :D
13:31:29 <mroman> although that one has RLE and color reduction turned on
13:31:36 <mroman> so it's not too bad as far as size goes
13:32:28 <Taneb> mroman, could you get that down using a colour pallete and CSS?
13:33:10 <mroman> but that would be a nice step to take
13:33:39 <mroman> the good thing is that this way I can send dick pics to people without having them detected
13:34:00 <mroman> also google image search will never index my pics
13:35:56 <mroman> no that online version has no colour reduction apparentely
13:36:12 <mroman> let me look on my disc
13:38:53 <b_jonas> mroman: hehe, I've seen images drawn with tables, but only smaller ones, up to 64x64 pixels or something.
13:40:12 <b_jonas> mroman: and the "14 bytes per letter" is missing the point. the bytes aren't the heavy cost, the in-memory heavy objects with tons of properties is. and they're not easy to avoid in current html renderers because javascript can modify anything after which the page has to be re-rendered.
13:40:40 <b_jonas> even without javascript, CSS can do some fancy things to change the page when you modify the width of the browser or you scroll or something.
13:41:18 <mroman> > 1748859 / 1024 / 1024
13:41:32 <mroman> that output.html is 1.6MB apparentely
13:43:15 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/output_reduced.html <- this is way smaller
13:43:22 <mroman> although the decrease in quality is noticable
13:43:42 <mroman> but I haven't tested it with dick pics yet so ...
13:43:46 <mroman> it might still serve the purpose
13:46:32 <mroman> that would shave off 60kb
13:47:25 <mroman> maybe background can be replaced with bg
13:51:44 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/mandel.html
13:55:09 <b_jonas> mroman: if there are repeated colors and/or widths, you could reduce stuff with classes instead of inline style I think.
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14:15:36 <mroman> i'm using rle for width
14:16:17 <mroman> if a color is repeated I just increase the width
14:17:16 <mroman> but you mean like .f { background:#...; width:5px; }?
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14:21:35 <b_jonas> mroman: possibly, but probably more like sepraate classes for background and width
14:23:07 <b_jonas> eg <style thingy>.f { background: lime } .g { width: 5px }</style> and later <b class="f g"/>
14:37:55 <fizzie> "Please my dear the entire supreme court Of Ecowas Benin Republic are here to make it clear to you that there was a case that was been handling in this Ecowas since January 5th 2015 concerning your funds because we got some reports that you did not received your funds since after every stories you heard regarding the funds and all type of payments you have be paid to receive the funds but none ...
14:38:01 <fizzie> ... is received by you."
14:38:04 <fizzie> Man, that's a long sentence.
14:40:26 <b_jonas> fungot, Please my dear the entire supreme court Of Ecowas Benin Republic are here to make it clear to you that there was a case that was been handling your funds.
14:40:27 <fungot> b_jonas: i haskell, i have some
14:42:06 <mroman> fungot: turn down for what?
14:42:07 <fungot> mroman: i've already seen multiple in the block i live in connecticut. the hills were young."
14:42:16 <fungot> mroman: so a good alternative name for the procedure
15:09:47 <coppro> fizzie: can we implement a fungot module for that
15:09:47 <fungot> coppro: ther smerdy startin again? it seems to dtrt. i'm going to
15:10:44 <zgrep> fungot: Why are you?
15:10:44 <fungot> zgrep: if my memory serves me well enough to do it
15:10:52 <zgrep> Apparently it doesn't.
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15:20:41 <b_jonas> Oh, great, OGW prints a Turn to Frog variant for just {U}
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15:56:42 <b_jonas> No, more for creatures with annoying abilities
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17:12:00 <Taneb> One of my lecturers just used the term "quadrupleton set"
17:14:00 <Taneb> "Me and lambda have a history"
17:14:52 <int-e> `? lambda calculus
17:14:52 <HackEgo> lambda calculus? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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17:22:00 <Taneb> I didn't know Effi's did waffle
17:22:12 <Taneb> I presume that's referring to the pizza takeaway in York?
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17:24:00 * int-e was just looking for a name with "ffi".
17:25:29 <int-e> (Actually I thought of Effi Briest for some reason... perhaps I should read the book to see what it's about.)
17:26:09 <int-e> But I suspect that waffles don't feature prominently in that story.
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17:57:09 <oren> @tell \oren\ don't forget about the RS-20
17:59:15 <izabera> alan rickman died of cancer
18:00:47 <oren> no idea who that is
18:01:53 <oren> oh. he was a great actor
18:06:11 <myname> i wonder how many mange readers are in here
18:09:01 <myname> do you have recommendations that aren't kinda obvious?
18:10:52 <oren> for what genre
18:11:50 <myname> preferibly slice of life/character developing. just read bitter virgin and am reading aku no hana right now
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18:18:10 <oren> Hmm. The ones i've read that aren't all that popular afaik are the manga of ARIA (Kozue Amano).
18:20:40 <oren> Also Kimi ni todoke
18:36:26 <Phantom_Hoover> izabera, it's a bad week to be a 69-year old with cancer
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19:36:36 <mauris> (functions from p to a type that contains *no values at all*)
19:37:42 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: And &? Wiki gives me the product type, so tuples
19:37:46 <mauris> if p is empty (false), the type is inhabited (by the empty function that maps nothing to nothing), but as soon as p is inhabited (true), we need to map from some p value to something in codomain, but there's no way to pick anything, so p -> Void can't be inhabited.
19:38:35 <hppavilion[1]> Which is, in haskell if that's correct, (P, (P -> Q)) -> Q
19:38:48 <mauris> @djinn (p, p -> q) -> q
19:39:40 <mauris> the @djinn command? ~magic~
19:39:46 <mauris> but modus ponens is basically application, yeah!
19:40:02 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: No, how does (p, p -> q) -> q become that?
19:40:27 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: I know that modus ponens if application; wiki said so, so I was using that as practice
19:40:59 <mauris> the @djinn command takes a type and... by some complicated process, thinks up a value that has that type
19:41:24 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: Ah. But how does f (a, b) = b a even have that... OH!
19:41:50 <mauris> maybe "f (p, g) = g p" is clearer?
19:42:51 <mauris> anyway, if you give @djinn simple curry-howard thingies, it can do "proofs" (because a function inhabiting some type ≈ a proof that some logic predicate holds)
19:44:46 <mauris> it can handle some pretty cool things
19:44:49 <mauris> @djinn (Either a b, Either a c) -> Either a (b, c)
19:45:42 <hppavilion[1]> Either ((F, (P -> F)) -> F) ((T, (P -> T)) -> T) is what I got from it
19:45:48 <b_jonas> @djinn (a, (b, c)) -> (c, (b, a))
19:47:11 <mauris> wikipedia says modus tollens is just: P -> Q and NOT Q ==> NOT P right?
19:47:32 <mauris> @djinn (p -> q, q -> Void) -> (p -> Void)
19:47:46 <mauris> @djinn ((p -> q), (q -> Void)) -> (p -> Void) -- parens for clarity
19:48:15 <mauris> anyway, you can use currying nicely here! do you know about that?
19:49:01 <mauris> (you don't *need* it, but that's what lambdabot did there)
19:50:53 <mauris> well, essentially p → q and q → Void are your two steps to a contradiction
19:51:49 <mauris> my recommendation: you should play http://incredible.pm/ if you enjoy this and want it gamified. it's lots of fun!
19:52:32 <mauris> solving the problems on there is a lot like writing a function like @djinn does
19:53:20 <shachaf> the amazing mauris and his educated rodents
19:54:51 <shachaf> The main thing I remember from that book is the word "cooperate".
19:55:17 <shachaf> Which I pronounced as "coop-erate" since I didn't know how it was pronounced.
19:56:05 <mauris> pronouncing words wrong cause you've only ever read them is great
19:56:19 <mauris> how was i supposed to guess "colonel"??
19:57:00 <shachaf> they don't call torvals "the linux colonel" for nothing
19:59:16 <shachaf> @djinn-add type Cont r a = (a -> r) -> r
19:59:20 <shachaf> @djinn ((p -> Cont r q) -> Cont r p) -> Cont r p
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22:23:11 <FireFly> Maybe they took a wrong turn and ended up here
22:28:33 <izabera> https://github.com/VerbalExpressions/JSVerbalExpressions
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23:46:06 <HackEgo> Edu1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:48:25 <Edu1> soy de venzuela
23:49:06 <izabera> do you also speak english? <.<
23:49:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcome.es: not found
23:49:19 <boily> argh. what was the spanish version again?
23:49:26 <HackEgo> Edu1: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
23:49:44 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/wecome*
23:49:45 <boily> Edu1: ¿hablá usted inglés?
23:49:49 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/welcome*
23:49:50 <HackEgo> wisdom/welcome wisdom/welcome.bork wisdom/welcome.eo wisdom/welcome.es wisdom/welcome.fi wisdom/welcome.fr wisdom/welcome.nl wisdom/welcome.sv
23:50:18 <Edu1> no hablo ingles
23:53:09 <boily> ¿conoces brainfuck? está el más popular de los lenguajes esotéricos: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck
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00:01:16 <oerjan> someone should fix canaima.
00:01:32 -!- atslash has joined.
00:01:33 <oerjan> (their channel list, that is)
00:03:57 <boily> I like the random randomperson visiting our channel from time to time :)
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00:07:04 <hppavilion[1]> If we define a Kleene Algebra with an additional - operation (pun intended, but not initially), have we just defined some (non-strict, to cover all my bases) subset of the Hyperoperations for strings?
00:07:47 <hppavilion[1]> - is, likely, relative complement; "x"+"y"+"z" = {"x", "y", "z"}, "x"+"y"+"z"-"y" = {"x", "z"}
00:08:57 <hppavilion[1]> Specifically, talking about the Kleene Algebras that deal with strings of characters from some alphabet
00:10:01 <oerjan> well regular languages are closed under set difference.
00:11:17 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So does that mean that I have just invented Regex Hyperoperations? xD
00:12:01 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, but these hyperoperations are indexed by naturals
00:12:35 <oerjan> however, + as set union doesn't have cancellation
00:13:25 <oerjan> because {x} + {x} = {x} + {} but {x} != {}
00:13:53 <shachaf> this channel has been unionized
00:14:01 <hppavilion[1]> I had to look up cancellation because I confused it with something else
00:14:13 <shachaf> but he's still in #haskell and some other places
00:14:30 <oerjan> shachaf: now let's ruin it by demanding a pension fund backed by a company that will go bankrupt in ten years
00:14:44 <boily> I don't want to be part of no union.
00:15:01 <oerjan> boily: i guess you don't believen in the nordic model, then.
00:15:04 <shachaf> oerjan: you're clearly not a chemist hth
00:15:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So is kleene hyperoperations completely broken?
00:15:55 <shachaf> oerjan: unless pension is a pun i missed somehow
00:15:58 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's rather early to say when you've barely defined the first step, isn't it
00:16:29 <shachaf> oerjan: you can't even not acknowledge a pun
00:16:54 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No, it's not too early for it to be completely broken
00:17:05 <hppavilion[1]> It is too early for it to be completely /working/ though
00:18:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well my hunch is it's meaningless
00:19:22 <hppavilion[1]> More "new and eso, but not particularly interesting"
00:19:25 <oerjan> but only because i see no obvious reason why it should have good properties or an intuitive meaning
00:20:38 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well the obvious brokenness is that x + x = x so multiplication defined similarly to hyperoperations is likely trivial
00:21:11 <oerjan> for that reason, and because wtf are you even recursing over when defining it...
00:22:27 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So it isn't /quite/ the hyperoperations, but it's close
00:22:35 <oerjan> fine, now define the next step in such a way that it's connection to + and * does not feel completely ad hoc hth
00:23:22 <oerjan> basically i cannot judge your idea yet because you haven't defined anything but the base step of the induction, which says _nothing_.
00:24:08 <oerjan> shachaf: oh i didn't notice your "but he's still in #haskell and some other places" line until now.
00:24:36 <oerjan> don't assume i manage to read this channel in order twh hth
00:26:04 <shachaf> "dnhwpbiq hth" dnhwpbiq hth
00:26:06 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I don't think there /is/ a way to non-ad hoc it xD
00:26:39 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: THEN IT'S COMPLETELY BROKEN HTH
00:27:44 <hppavilion[1]> And I can work towards generalizing better now that I have additional operations?
00:28:19 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps the kleeney hyperoperations are an alternator, then a concatenator, then an alternator, then a concatenator
00:28:31 <hppavilion[1]> Then again, that makes no sense, because the third one is both
00:28:41 <oerjan> shachaf: wd"dnhwpbiq"mtwh
00:29:18 <hppavilion[1]> So the successor of a regex is either that regex OR nothing
00:29:48 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I really have no clue what I'm doing, cyt?
00:29:55 <oerjan> additional operators may not help because that also gives more opportunities for rules to be broken
00:30:10 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i ... figured.
00:30:23 <HackEgo> 1005) <shachaf> "would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation" would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation
00:30:33 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Idea. Instead of one set of hyperoperations, why not two? One spawning from +, the other from *
00:30:49 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: There's no reason * need be the next after +
00:31:37 <oerjan> the thing about your ideas is that they look like brainstorming with absolutely no intuition why there is a reason that they _should_ work
00:32:11 <oerjan> and so vaguely stated that i cannot even see how to repair it
00:32:32 <oerjan> so basically, work on getting a bit more rigor into the presentation.
00:33:03 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i don't know. i don't expect there to be an operation that naturally follows.
00:33:18 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I agree. + and * seem to have no relationship
00:33:21 <oerjan> naturality, yes, that would also be good.
00:33:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I just noticed a possibility in the way Kleene Algebra works. I didn't think "I wonder what the use would be" because I didn't have all the data (I couldn't remember the hyperoperation definition)
00:34:55 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, do you mean naturality would be an alternative to rigor in my presentation?
00:35:16 <oerjan> naturality is an intuitive concept, mostly, here.
00:35:22 <oerjan> and ideally you need both.
00:35:26 * boily mapoles hppavilion[1]!
00:35:35 <boily> no burning people here. think of the noxious fumes.
00:36:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, naturality as in "it makes sense that this could happen"
00:36:35 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd.
00:36:57 <oerjan> `learn_append #esoteric It's about 100 m (30 ft) across.
00:37:01 <HackEgo> Learned '#esoteric': #esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd. It's about 100 m (30 ft) across.
00:37:24 <oerjan> we established that the other day hth
00:37:54 <zgrep> Or long, if you measured width the other day.
00:38:23 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:38:25 <oerjan> `learn_append #esoteric It's about 30 m (100 ft) across.
00:38:28 <HackEgo> Learned '#esoteric': #esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across.
00:38:45 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: It's 257 dimensions, and thus it's two dimensional. No concept of width.
00:38:55 <oerjan> i remember the conversion approximation, but not which is which...
00:39:05 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: So what's the height, then?
00:39:38 <zgrep> Seems kind-of cramped. How do we all fit?
00:39:48 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: also naturality as in "fits well together". and if you're lucky, naturality in the rigorous, category theory sense, which somehow tends to imply the others.
00:41:33 <boily> although they are part of an extremely confusing system of units, fluid ounces are strangely convenient.
00:42:47 <oerjan> zgrep: 30 m each way gives 900 m^2, about 9-10 m^2 per nick, not that cramped...
00:43:26 <oerjan> i guess that's about 3m x 3m cubicles
00:43:49 <oerjan> zgrep: it's circular. oh hm
00:44:22 <oerjan> > sqrt (pi * 30^2 / 95)
00:44:49 <oerjan> > sqrt (pi * 15^2 / 95)
00:45:07 <zgrep> Hm... I guess we all fit...
00:45:24 <zgrep> ...what's the largest amount of people there have been in this channel...
00:47:12 <oerjan> dunno but it's surely been above 100
00:47:34 <oerjan> hm time to do a bot counting again
00:48:08 <zgrep> oerjan: Bots need their own space too.
00:48:48 <oerjan> fungot glogbot HackEgo clog idris-bot j-bot EgoBot lambdabot zemhill
00:48:49 <fungot> oerjan: mmm... tuna. they've been around for that one
00:49:02 <oerjan> hm just below 10% today
00:49:10 <zgrep> Hm. With 200 people it would still give each person a nice bit of area...
00:49:26 <zgrep> 300 is starting to get cramped...
00:49:52 <zgrep> 600, and we're down to one square meter (approximately)
00:51:21 <zgrep> 2827 people, and everybody has half a meter to themselves.
00:51:32 <zgrep> Well, half a meter by half a meter.
00:53:14 <zgrep> The question is, how will we split up a circle nicely so that everybody gets their amount of space...
00:55:09 <\oren\> my cubicle at work is like 2 m across
00:56:51 <tswett> Hey everyone, tell me if my templating is off.
00:56:53 <tswett> "The Doctor enters the battlefield with 13 regeneration counters on it. Whenever The Doctor dies, if it had at least one regeneration counter on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with one fewer regeneration counter on it."
01:05:40 <oerjan> not timey-wimey enough hth
01:08:20 <shachaf> tswett: I think it would usually be "When", not "Whenever".
01:11:57 <boily> "When the Doctor enters the battlefield, put 13 regeneration counters on it. Regeneration counter: regenerate the Doctor."
01:16:28 <tswett> I chose this ability as a more fun version of an activated regeneration ability.
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01:21:01 <tswett> http://whymtgcardsmith.tumblr.com/post/130362573178/the-name-and-flavor-text-are-lies - I kind of want to just read through here and try to reword all the cards.
01:21:45 <tswett> "Exile all lands your opponents control. The owner of a land exiled this way may play that land."
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01:27:27 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Do you agree that we should have a detailed reference about the Curry-Howard Correspondence on the wiki so that people can see new and eso ideas for computation?
01:27:42 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: well, what's wrong with the Wikipedia article?
01:28:31 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: The idea is this would be a long, long list of CSy things based on FL
01:29:01 <boily> http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/scienceandtech/14276-Magic-The-Gathering-Cards-Made-by-Artificial-Intelligence ← always droll and entertaining.
01:29:19 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Regardless as to whether what they correspond to is something well-known in CS
01:31:22 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Meaning that, for example, you could have a programming language based on De Morgan's Laws when C-H isomorphized
01:35:26 <mauris> hppavilion[1]: the logic being modeled here is "intuitionistic logic", which is a lot like classical logic, but lacks the familiar "law of excluded middle" and "double negation elimination" axioms
01:36:06 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: Wait, then how can you do Law of Excluded Middle Continuation?
01:36:22 <oerjan> also @djinn doesn't support recursive types.
01:36:43 <Phantom_Hoover> mauris, LEM and double negation elimination are equivalent aren't they...
01:37:04 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you have to model continuations somehow, usually with the Cont monad
01:37:40 <oerjan> @djinn ((Either x (x -> Void) -> Void) -> Void
01:37:51 <oerjan> @djinn (Either x (x -> Void) -> Void) -> Void
01:37:51 <lambdabot> f a = void (a (Right (\ b -> a (Left b))))
01:38:43 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: see above
01:39:03 <\oren\> in 1/2 an hour the donald trump and co. show is on
01:39:39 <oerjan> putting an intuitionistic proposition inside ( -> Void) -> Void makes it equivalent to the classical one
01:40:17 <mauris> @djinn (((q -> Void) -> Void) -> Void) -> Void
01:40:23 <tswett> @djinn ((x -> Void) -> Void) -> Either x (x -> Void)
01:41:20 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: you're asking what [] corresponds to under the CHI?
01:41:31 <mauris> oh, wait, oops, nevermind me
01:41:53 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I guess it essentially means "there exist 0 or more proofs that (...)".
01:42:04 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: [a] is syntactic sugar for List a, isn't it?
01:42:13 <tswett> It's syntactic sugar for [] a.
01:42:31 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Which basically means List a, where List is a functor?
01:42:47 <tswett> Indeed, it means List a, where List is [].
01:43:34 <mauris> well, if a value of type `p` corresponds to a constructive proof of `p`
01:44:09 <mauris> then a `[p]` just contains a bunch of proofs? i suppose
01:45:19 <hppavilion[1]> ((P -> Q), (P -> Void)) -> (P -> Void) is negation introduction the CSy way, AFAICT
01:45:52 <mauris> that should be ((P -> Q), (P -> (Q -> Void)))
01:46:03 <mauris> so it isn't snd, i'm afraid
01:46:42 <mauris> @djinn ((P -> Q), (P -> (Q -> Void))) -> (P -> Void)
01:46:49 <hppavilion[1]> Based on what I read, I've been treating p & q as (p, q)
01:46:51 <mauris> @djinn ((p -> q), (p -> (q -> Void))) -> (p -> Void)
01:47:23 <mauris> that is correct! compare though https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negation_introduction
01:47:36 <mauris> it's S flipped around a bit!
01:48:07 <mauris> (wow look, it's a J fork, or hook, or whatever.)
01:48:08 <hppavilion[1]> I treated negation introduction as (P -> Q) & (P -> ~Q) -> ~P
01:49:06 <mauris> you did (P -> Q) & ~P -> ...
01:49:15 <mauris> ~P instead of (P -> ~Q)
01:50:15 <mauris> <hppavilion[1]> ((P -> Q), (P -> Void)) -> (P -> Void) is negation introduction the CSy way, AFAICT
01:50:21 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: Are you correcting me relizing my mistake?
01:51:06 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: What does ~P translate to then? I was told it was Void, but I just remembered I was confused because ~Void should be Unit
01:51:39 <mauris> ~P translates to P -> Void
01:52:06 <mauris> (and Void -> Void is isomorphic to Unit! so it checks out)
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01:52:32 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: So ((P -> Q), (P -> (Q -> Void)) -> (P -> Void)?
01:52:49 <mauris> yep! and the flippy S combinator is your proof
01:54:51 <tswett> This One. U. Enchantment. When This One enters the battlefield, put an Aura enchantment with "Enchant This One" named That One onto the battlefield. This One gains "Enchant That One". Attach This One to That One. Attach That One to This One.
01:59:35 <\oren\> oh god the singer is flubbing every line in the US anthem
01:59:40 <hppavilion[1]> That's what fanagling with the function you @djinned does
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02:00:26 <mauris> so you can never actually call it! or get a result from it. (but you can pretend you can, in weird ways.)
02:00:40 <mauris> i need sleep, sadly :(
02:01:28 <hppavilion[1]> Is there somewhere online I can find what logical propositions are called?
02:01:53 <hppavilion[1]> e.g. I figured out using my infinite wisdom that the I combinator has the type p -> p (</sarcasm>)
02:02:17 <hppavilion[1]> And since that obviously corresponds to some proposition, is there somewhere I can find what it's called?
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02:09:50 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: ooh, lemme find something.
02:10:06 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rules_of_inference
02:11:05 * boily is being seduced by the Sleeping Side of the Night
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02:14:09 <tswett> That doesn't actually mention any rule corresponding to p -> p.
02:14:35 <shachaf> wikipedia calls it "reflexivity of implication" hth
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03:41:53 <\oren\> Condensed C. C, but many common keywords and functions are given two-character or one-character equivalents
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03:52:22 <zgrep> \oren\: You mean like this? http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Essays/Incunabulum
03:56:03 <hppavilion[1]> nortti: I suppose I should trigger your client too
03:59:20 <\oren\> #define fir(n) for(i=0;i<n;i++)
04:06:13 <izabera> your #defines are going too far
04:12:43 <Elronnd> how about #define print(c) printf(c)
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04:18:16 <lifthrasiir> shachaf: #define d define #d foo worked for some time
04:19:50 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: #define substituted by #d (well, a newline before #d omitted)
04:19:55 <\oren\> it allowed you to #define things with just #d
04:20:42 <hppavilion[1]> Most programming languages have functions, correct?
04:21:26 <hppavilion[1]> Why not fuck with that? I mean, it's not like it (or anything else) is sacred.
04:23:08 <\oren\> well a lot of languages allow named arguments, maybe make that mandatory?
04:23:11 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: to avoid dealing with a partial function or whatsoever. it's that simple.
04:23:33 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: Ocaml allows for named arguments while being functional
04:24:08 <hppavilion[1]> The fact that you can't fucking add floats with the same operators of ints kind of scared me away
04:24:23 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: I don't mean allowing named arguments, I mean the arguments must all be named in every funtion call
04:24:46 <\oren\> f(3) is not valid, only f(x=3)
04:25:00 <Elronnd> When I found out you can call functions from dicts in python, my mind was blown
04:25:27 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking more a labeled graph of arguments, where you can't actually just access each one in particular, you must instead rewrite the graph so that the desired argument is in the "arg" node
04:25:45 <hppavilion[1]> For advanced programming, manipulate the graph for reasons other than to get at the argument.
04:26:22 <hppavilion[1]> Like, make graph/argument manipulation an integral part of the program structure
04:26:36 <\oren\> or you could make the anmes of the srguments part of the function's conceptual name
04:26:59 <\oren\> f(x=3); and f(y=3); call different functions
04:36:16 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: in that case f(x) is the *name* of the function.
04:36:53 <lifthrasiir> multimethod is about types: names may be regarded as a part of types or not.
04:51:37 <izabera> how do i find the smallest power of 2 that's higher than X ?
04:55:27 <izabera> i don't know these bit level things
04:55:43 <Elronnd> while not done: if (2^p > x) then (done = true) else (i++)
04:56:26 * izabera was hoping for something fancier
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06:29:54 <\oren\> I need to write a better set of tests of scrip7
06:29:58 <\oren\> ./scrip7 -e 'i=0j>1#a#_p"x"i+1j=ij~10jI"a"'
06:31:51 <\oren\> a language I made, then changed, then changed again.
06:32:03 <coppro> it's based off of 7 strips of leather
06:32:31 <\oren\> the above program (in the '') outputs 10 x's.
06:33:06 <\oren\> of course you can also do _p"xxxxxxxxxx"
06:33:36 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/scrip77.htm is the interpreter
06:35:54 <\oren\> I'm currently refactoring it
06:38:59 <\oren\> `` scrip7 -e 'i=0j>1#a#_p"x"i+1j=ij~10jI"a"'
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06:42:16 <\oren\> hmmm. it would be useful to have a scrip7 interpreter in javascript (well, not useful. uh... cool? for me?)
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07:05:24 <oerjan> "There's one thing that might prevent the Earth's total destruction. [...] Everyone on the surface would still be cooked, and much of the atmosphere and surface would be lost, but the bulk of the Earth's mass would probably remain as a charred husk."
08:02:17 <hppavilion[1]> I just use random.choice() on a 64-character string /n/ times to generate an n-character access token
08:03:03 <hppavilion[1]> That token is generated when a client requests to LOGIN using the proper password, and is saved so it can be checked later
08:03:32 <hppavilion[1]> The token is saved with a timestamp, and when the list of tokens is requested from the container, it first deletes all access tokens > 24 hours old
08:05:05 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, this is all for an elaborate prank which is slowly evolving into a botnet
08:06:00 <hppavilion[1]> (If I ever offer you a program, I heartily advise you don't accept)
09:14:17 <hppavilion[1]> @ask mroman How would I go about joining this ESOSC? Even if I'm the only person who participates? xD
09:14:33 <hppavilion[1]> I WILL NOT CONSIDER ANYTHING TO BE IN ANY STATE OF RECORDING
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09:41:43 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] asked 27m 25s ago: How would I go about joining this ESOSC? Even if I'm the only person who participates? xD
09:42:33 <mroman> hppavilion[1]: Three existing members must give you a vote
09:42:47 <mroman> currently that'd be nortti, Taneb and me
09:44:27 <hppavilion[1]> "For a non-member to become a member he or she has to pass a vote. To pass the
09:44:27 <hppavilion[1]> vote 2/3 of all existing members must vote to accept her or him as a new
09:44:55 <mroman> I guess then you only need two votes
09:45:27 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: I'm currently composing a Language Spec called GM
09:46:40 <hppavilion[1]> It relies heavily on mathematical structures like sets and graphs and matrices
09:48:07 <mroman> I think the usual flow is probably that the ESOSC will look at specs that are ready to be used, reviews them and then publishes them.
09:48:50 <mroman> so technically for that to happen you wouldn't even need to be a member.
09:49:15 <mroman> you can also submit drafts I think
09:49:49 <mroman> have you seen the repos?
09:53:21 <mroman> https://github.com/FMNSSun/ESOSC
09:53:38 <mroman> wtf is my esolangs org password
09:54:39 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: Is PDF (or, if preferred, DVI) an acceptable format for a standard? Or is txt required?
09:55:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ESOSC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46159&oldid=42111 * 160.85.232.167 * (+79) /* More Information */ adding a link to the repository
09:55:36 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe we should offer documents in multiple formats?)
09:57:15 <izabera> i'm writing something that vaguely looks like a small hand rolled jit and i need some help
09:57:51 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: Is there any other way to make a PDF that doesn't corrupt your soul?
09:58:20 <mroman> It's just that PDF only sucks if you want to make edits to it later
09:58:20 <izabera> how do i call a c function?
09:58:46 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: Ah, but it doesn't mess up if you use LaTeX of course?
09:58:49 <fizzie> izabera: By following the C calling convention of your platform.
09:59:01 <mroman> so ideally the source is in markdown, latex, html or plain text
09:59:27 <mroman> and then we keep the source in the repos, generate a PDF and link to the PDF from the website
10:00:17 <mroman> hppavilion[1]: You can fork the repository and create a folder ESOSC-2016-D9
10:00:22 <mroman> and then put your stuff there
10:01:19 <mroman> (or if it's just a single tex, txt file then you can also just create a file ESOSC-2016-D9.tex, but if you use multiple files please use a directory)
10:06:54 <mroman> izabera: emit push instructions for the arguments, then followedy by a call? Depends on the calling convention used of course.
10:07:38 <mroman> and don't forget to clean up the stack if you're using cdecl :)
10:08:20 <fizzie> On x86-64, you don't see that many pushes around, for example.
10:08:41 <mroman> that's because compilers allocate enough stack space for the arguments as well
10:08:44 <mroman> and then use mov instructions
10:08:54 <fizzie> No, it's because the calling convention doesn't use the stack for passing arguments.
10:08:59 <fizzie> Until it runs out of registers.
10:09:10 <fizzie> That's what the -64 part was for.
10:09:21 <mroman> they should've called it x64
10:09:30 <fizzie> The SysV ABI also gets pretty complicated on the topic of how things go into which registers.
10:10:36 <fizzie> And of course Windows has its own variant, which uses a different set of registers and different logic for putting the parameters in them.
10:19:15 <fizzie> mroman: Just so you know, your domain's mail server didn't like the esolangs.org one when it tried to send you a password recovery email. (The system seems to be missing a FQDN in the hostname it advertises in HELO, which your side didn't appreciate. Will have to fix that.)
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10:20:31 <fizzie> "550 HELO argument [codu] is malformed. See http://www.linuxmagic.com/best_practices/valid_helo_domain.html for more information. Protection provided by MagicSpam 1.0.8-4 http://www.magicspam.com"
10:21:12 <mroman> a lot of mail servers require a fqdn
10:21:12 <fizzie> I don't know where it gets that from, /etc/mailname is a FQDN. I only really know Postfix, and this thing is running exim.
10:21:19 <mroman> and they will check if your domain has an mx record
10:21:49 <mroman> which must match (obviously)
10:22:37 <mroman> but I've managed to crack my password
10:22:44 <fizzie> The word "codu" doesn't appear in any file in /etc/exim4/ at all. Hmm.
10:22:58 <mroman> You probably need to recompile exim :D
10:23:08 <mroman> exim is that weird program that requires lots of compile time configuration .
10:23:25 <mroman> for example if you want to change the name of the user it runs under
10:23:25 <fizzie> "hostname -f" does result in codu, so it probably gets it from there.
10:23:50 <mroman> what's cat /etc/hostname?
10:24:02 <fizzie> That's just codu as well.
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10:24:42 <fizzie> As does the 127.0.0.1 entry of /etc/hosts. It's all very domainless.
10:26:06 <fizzie> Well, maybe it's closer to okay now. Hopefully I didn't break anything else.
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11:33:19 <mroman> maintaing mail servers stopped being fun when ssl was mandatory :D
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11:34:21 <mroman> also isps hook port 25
11:34:30 <mroman> you can't have anything run on port 25 anymore
11:35:02 <mroman> switzerland's swisscom intercepts any traffic tcp:25
11:35:46 <mroman> if somebody connects to mroman:25 they will end up connecting to a swisscom server :)
11:36:32 <mroman> I don't know. Port blocking seems inherently stupid
11:37:03 <mroman> like back when everything except outgoing tcp 80, 25 and some other ports were allowed
11:37:14 <mroman> now production sites even use 8080 and ports like those
11:41:03 <fizzie> Our ISP in Finland used to block incoming :25.
11:41:39 <fizzie> I had my VPS configured to use :2525 instead, because I didn't feel like keeping my emails on the VPS for some reason.
11:41:49 <fizzie> Don't remember why. Nowadays I just keep them there.
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12:23:35 <quintopia> i came in here to see if boily was around and didnt notice he was here the whole time. so quiet!
12:27:42 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
12:27:59 <mroman> `? learn chicken is boily af
12:28:00 <HackEgo> learn chicken is boily af? ¯\(°_o)/¯
12:28:05 <mroman> `learn chicken is boily af
12:28:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'chicken': chicken is boily af
12:29:55 <mroman> well fuck it i'll design my own text format
12:31:08 <mroman> with figures and references and hookers
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13:01:26 <int-e> (that's one of my favorite typos)
13:04:17 <HackEgo> Drone sex has never been observed in the wild; in fact it's rare to see drones in their natural habitat because they are extremely shy. Experiments with drones in captivity have only resulted in broken drones, and a rotor stuck in the ceiling. We are still looking for a biological explanation for the ever increasing drone population.
13:04:31 <int-e> (today's xkcd seems relevant)
13:06:53 <HackEgo> drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
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14:25:26 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/log: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ grep: ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
14:25:44 <mroman> it's log but broken...
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14:34:09 <HackEgo> diarrhea/Diarrhea is the most sickening accent, although some others are more grave.
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14:41:15 <b_jonas> `learn select/select waits for events, retrieves data from tables, creates a list from elements of an input list that satisfy a condition, a dropdown list element, an event for when selection changes, branches between multiple arms, conditional between two expressions, prints a text-based menu prompt in a loop, or sets the default output handle.
14:41:16 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/learn: line 3: wisdom/select/select: No such file or directory \ Learned 'select/select': select/select waits for events, retrieves data from tables, creates a list from elements of an input list that satisfy a condition, a dropdown list element, an event for when selection changes, branches between multiple arms, conditional betwee
14:41:22 <b_jonas> `le/rn select/select waits for events, retrieves data from tables, creates a list from elements of an input list that satisfy a condition, a dropdown list element, an event for when selection changes, branches between multiple arms, conditional between two expressions, prints a text-based menu prompt in a loop, or sets the default output handle.
14:41:31 <HackEgo> select waits for events, retrieves data from tables, creates a list from elements of an input list that satisfy a condition, a dropdown list element, an event for when selection changes, branches between multiple arms, conditional between two expressions, prints a text-based menu prompt in a loop, or sets the default output handle.
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14:42:40 <b_jonas> `learn select is a very versatile construct: it waits for events, retrieves data from tables, creates a list from elements of an input list that satisfy a condition, a dropdown list element, an event for when selection changes, branches between multiple arms, conditional between two expressions, prints a text-based menu prompt in a loop, or sets the default output handle.
14:42:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'select': select is a very versatile construct: it waits for events, retrieves data from tables, creates a list from elements of an input list that satisfy a condition, a dropdown list element, an event for when selection changes, branches between multiple arms, conditional between two expressions, prints a text-based menu prompt in a loop,
14:42:48 <HackEgo> select is a very versatile construct: it waits for events, retrieves data from tables, creates a list from elements of an input list that satisfy a condition, a dropdown list element, an event for when selection changes, branches between multiple arms, conditional between two expressions, prints a text-based menu prompt in a loop, or sets the defau
14:42:56 <b_jonas> `learn select is a very versatile construct: it waits for events, retrieves data from tables, creates a list from elements of an input list that satisfy a condition, a dropdown list element, an event for when selection changes, branches between multiple arms, conditional between two expressions, prints a text-based menu prompt in a loop, and more.
14:42:59 <HackEgo> Learned 'select': select is a very versatile construct: it waits for events, retrieves data from tables, creates a list from elements of an input list that satisfy a condition, a dropdown list element, an event for when selection changes, branches between multiple arms, conditional between two expressions, prints a text-based menu prompt in a loop,
14:43:04 <HackEgo> select is a very versatile construct: it waits for events, retrieves data from tables, creates a list from elements of an input list that satisfy a condition, a dropdown list element, an event for when selection changes, branches between multiple arms, conditional between two expressions, prints a text-based menu prompt in a loop, and more.
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15:16:50 <Taneb> I am in the lovely situation of using an experimental research language whose compiler segfaults on my (valid) program
15:17:32 <Taneb> Actually, that happens with my Haskell sometimes, too
15:17:37 <Taneb> I think I may be cursed
15:18:32 <Taneb> At least this time I'm in the same room as the creator of the language and one of the authors of the compiler
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15:27:41 <Taneb> The Authorities seem to think my program is not at fault
15:28:17 <b_jonas> Taneb: I mean, the compiler is buggy
15:28:54 <Taneb> So's the graphical front-end
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16:04:00 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented it.
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17:15:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Lazy evaluation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46160&oldid=42987 * 50.161.94.113 * (+63) why not
17:15:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BitShift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46161&oldid=45559 * Quintopia * (+128) Categories
17:18:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minebit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46162&oldid=21369 * 50.161.94.113 * (-26) Turing completeness doesn't require halting..?
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18:19:51 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-UWJqt95gk 73.8% sfw
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23:02:25 <zzo38> I know that the internet service that I have does not block any incoming or outgoing port numbers; I have successfully accepted incoming connections on port 25, 70, 80, 194, and others.
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23:03:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: sneaky question: have you successfully accepted incoming connections on tcp port 0? (port 0 is the one the TCP spec allows, but the unix tcp sockets api makes almost impossible to use)
23:05:19 <lambdabot> myname said 3d 14h 3m 49s ago: please specify the starting point of memfractal
23:06:03 <HackEgo> wisdome/The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom.
23:06:13 <HackEgo> the u/The U are a very mad people.
23:06:18 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
23:07:13 <HackEgo> hyperbolic geometry/Hyperbolic Geometry is geometry that is exaggerated to the point of absurdity.
23:07:15 <fungot> b_jonas: too bad i'll probably be working on fnord
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23:53:41 <olsner> fungot: why would you be working on fnord?
23:53:42 <fungot> olsner: you're working with heaps while in fact my test platform. the gui stuff is done using the native gui without the smalltalk window
23:54:09 <olsner> fungot: the "smalltalk window", is that where you do IRC?
23:54:09 <fungot> olsner: thanks alot riastradh, you have 1 message. riastradh says: ...damn question mark key.
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00:06:10 <hppavilion[1]> Why does the ESOSC have A1, A2, then A5? Were A3 and A4 obsoleted or something?
00:31:50 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> (that's one of my favorite typos) <-- i think you're missing at least one extra "IT" for it to be logically punny rather than just a typo hth
00:35:01 <HackEgo> select/select is a very versatile construct: it waits for events, retrieves data from tables, creates a list from elements of an input list that satisfy a condition, a dropdown list element, an event for when selection changes, branches between multiple arms, conditional between two expressions, prints a text-based menu prompt in a loop, and more.
00:38:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Lazy evaluation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46163&oldid=46160 * Oerjan * (+52) vsp, unsigned
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01:51:28 <HackEgo> /cat: : No such file or directory
01:51:36 <HackEgo> the fabric of reality itself? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:52:58 <oerjan> ooh DMM linked to our wiki in today's iwc rerun annotation
01:54:16 <oerjan> `le/rn fabric of reality/The fabric of reality is *not* plaid corduroy, no matter what evil tongues say.
01:54:20 <HackEgo> Learned «fabric of reality»
01:55:49 <izabera> https://arin.ga/uCKWIW/raw little help please? x.x
01:56:22 <izabera> i don't understand where's the address of the stringconcat function
01:56:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Curry-Howard Correspondence/Reference]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46164 * Hppavilion1 * (+358) Created Page
01:59:33 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], probably write some content for the page other than a declaration of its existence before creating it
01:59:58 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, I created it so I wouldn't accidentally close it
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02:00:50 <Phantom_Hoover> ok, second concern: having subpages of a page that doesn't exist is Wrong and Bad
02:01:09 <oerjan> izabera: maybe those zeros are meant to be filled in by the linker?
02:02:14 * oerjan is guessing wildly as he doesn't really know assembly
02:04:06 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you'd be in so much trouble if i hadn't given up catching to my esolangs.org backlog
02:04:19 <mauris> izabera: that looks like an unresolved external reference maybe?
02:05:34 * oerjan thinks mauris may be vaguely saying the same thing as he is
02:05:56 <mauris> oops, that is what i meant, yeah
02:06:09 <izabera> i thought it meant to jump to address +0
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02:10:04 <mauris> izabera: is that a decompiled .o file, and is stringconcat from some library?
02:10:04 <izabera> yes to the first question, and that function is in the same file
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02:10:04 <oerjan> izabera: oh. in that case, i think it's tail call optimization: stringconcat _is_ the following line.
02:10:04 <oerjan> or something like that.
02:10:09 <oerjan> or well, proper TCO shouldn't leave in a call at all, should it? but i don't know the mnemonics.
02:10:32 <oerjan> (when the call goes to the next line)
02:11:29 <oerjan> izabera: ok, put differently, when stringconcat is on the next instruction, then the relative address to it _is_ just zeros.
02:12:09 <fizzie> izabera: If you got that thing out of disassembling a .o file, those generally have 0s in places where there are relocations.
02:13:06 <oerjan> fizzie: but why would there be a relocation within the same file...
02:14:03 <izabera> indeed all the call's in my file are e8 00 00 00 00
02:14:17 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, I didn't read that part. But it's usually trivial to find out, especially if it's from objdump -- just ask it to produce the relocations.
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02:15:26 <izabera> 1bf: e8 00 00 00 00 callq 1c4 <func+0x13>
02:15:28 <izabera> 1c0: R_X86_64_PC32 stringconcat-0x4
02:15:30 <izabera> 1c4: 48 89 d8 mov %rbx,%rax
02:16:04 <fizzie> Yes, so: at address 1c0, put in the 32-bit PC-relative displacement to the symbol stringconcat-4.
02:16:33 <izabera> what are some good resources to learn more about this?
02:16:44 <fizzie> The -4 is of course because the operand of call is measured as a relative offset from the instruction following the call, while the relocation is in terms of the location of the relocation.
02:19:26 <fizzie> Hrm. I've just generally puzzled these things out. There was a relatively good article somewhere mostly about how dynamic libraries on Linux-y systems conventionally work, covering some of this stuff, but possibly not exactly what you'd be after.
02:20:58 <fizzie> As for why it's a relocation when the function is in the same file, I think the semantics require you must be able to override the symbol resolution at link time when it's a global symbol.
02:21:36 <fizzie> Compare how the calls to f() and g() are handled differently in h() here: http://sprunge.us/TPMc
02:24:17 <fizzie> Yes. Well, or arguably because of what f being static mean to the symbol binding.
02:24:31 <fizzie> 5: 0000000000000000 11 FUNC LOCAL DEFAULT 1 f
02:24:33 <fizzie> 9: 000000000000000b 11 FUNC GLOBAL DEFAULT 1 g
02:26:30 <fizzie> That's perhaps a bit vague. But in general I would expect a JIT to know exactly where the functions it wants to call currently happen to be, and therefore be able to generate code with the proper addresses.
02:28:29 <fizzie> (The functions, and the code it's generating.)
02:29:29 <fizzie> If you end up needing to do symbol lookups by name in a program written in C on a POSIXy system, there's the dlsym function from <dlfcn.h>.
02:30:07 <izabera> but that looks up the address of a library function
02:30:23 <fizzie> It can also look up the address of a function in your program.
02:30:43 <fizzie> Or any symbol, not just a function.
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02:31:35 <fizzie> Of course that's only relevant if you want to go from a string to the symbol.
02:36:48 <izabera> so once you gets the address, you replace e8 00 00 00 00 with e8 <actual address> ?
02:37:49 <fizzie> Well, the displacement.
02:38:34 <fizzie> The difference between the actual address and the address of the byte immediately after the last 00.
02:41:41 <fizzie> (And you'll have to do something else than a near call -- an e8 -- if your displacement doesn't fit in a signed 32-bit integer, which is quite possible if the target is in a library somewhere, and the generated code is in some random page from mmap.)
02:42:30 <fizzie> s/near/relative/ maybe.
02:46:26 <fizzie> That's from the instruction set reference.
02:47:01 <fizzie> "E8 cd CALL rel32 Call near, relative, displacement relative to next instruction. 32-bit displacement sign extended to 64-bits in 64-bit mode."
02:52:03 <izabera> the reference is that 1500 pages pdf on the intel website?
02:52:19 <fizzie> My copy is 4161 pages.
02:52:39 <fizzie> I guess the volume-2-only might be about that size.
02:52:44 <fizzie> But, I mean, it's got an index.
02:53:10 <fizzie> You don't have to read through AAA, AAD, AAM, AAS etc. in order to get to CALL.
02:54:13 <fizzie> Yes, but you don't want a call far.
02:54:21 <fizzie> Sorry for using the word "near" and potentially confusing you there. :p
02:55:55 <fizzie> Far calls segue into a topic that's even more complicated, and hopefully not very relevant from the perspective of a user-mode program these days.
02:58:14 <fizzie> You could use the CALL r/m64 form to make a call with an absolute 64-bit address. It'll still be a "near" call, technically.
02:59:13 <fizzie> In fact, if you want to ask a compiler for help, the best bet is to set a function pointer to some arbitrary number, and call that. I mean, that's pretty much what you'll be wanting to do.
03:00:17 <izabera> yes that was my next question
03:00:29 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/CdYL -- like that.
03:02:22 <fizzie> Just, you know, without the part that moves rax to memory and back again. Maybe add an -O2. Except that actually does the tail call optimization and turns it into a jmpq *%rax instead.
03:09:11 <fizzie> Think I'll be sleeping now.
03:10:25 <izabera> and thank you for your help
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04:14:11 <zzo38> Low pass filter is y[i] = x * x[i] + (1-a) * y[i-1] but you could make "a" to be complex numbers?
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05:55:37 <izabera> in italy a man just killed his aunt
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06:01:10 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Sounds pretty normal for us here in `murica
06:02:33 <oerjan> Some people, when confronted with an aunt, think "I know, I'll use a chainsaw."
06:03:09 <izabera> now they have... multiple problems?
06:03:39 <oerjan> sorry, my most evil puns are afflicted with muphry's [sic] law
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06:20:23 <zzo38> Muphry's law is an adage that states: "If you write anything criticizing editing or proofreading, there will be a fault of some kind in what you have written."
07:29:00 <\oren\> maybe blazon would be easier to write
07:36:21 <hppavilion[1]> How is redefining Emmental symbols much different from Function definition?
07:38:12 <hppavilion[1]> Is it because if you redefine an Emmental symbol to include itself, the new definition is observed in the redefinition?
07:39:05 <hppavilion[1]> I ask because I'm attempting to make a more... friendly emmental. One that we could trick programmers into seriously using.
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07:42:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's not that different.
07:42:49 <oerjan> and the new definition is _not_ observed inside itself.
07:43:05 <oerjan> (if it were, the new function could never halt)
07:43:08 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So it's basically just function redefinition?
07:43:12 <bender|> hppavilion[1], What ya been doing?
07:43:41 <hppavilion[1]> bender|: I'm making an Emmental (or more accurately Mascarpone)-like language we can trick programmers into using!
07:44:01 <oerjan> although note that the lookup function (? iirc) always observes the newest definition
07:44:22 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I like Mascarpone because you can push interpreters onto the stack xD
07:44:36 <oerjan> i haven't looked at mascarpone
07:46:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It self-modifies so hard that it self-modifies the self-modification
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13:35:40 <nortti> < hppavilion[1]> Why does the ESOSC have A1, A2, then A5? Were A3 and A4 obsoleted or something? ← they were things that did not pass
13:36:35 <nortti> @tell hppavilion[1] ESOSC D3 and D4 never got approved and seems like the drafts got removed
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14:42:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ennullizer * New user account
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15:23:35 <FireFly> Otherwise I thought it would be entirely in-character to only have specs A1, A2 and A5 without any rationale as to why
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15:43:08 <myname> where do you read these specs?
15:48:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46165 * Ennullizer * (+2258) Created page with "'''Hq9eFuck''' (pronounced as "HugeFuck"), or also '''H9F''', is a joke esoteric programming language written by Egor Promyshlennikov in 2016. ==Language overview== Hq9eFuck i..."
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15:53:42 <myname> isn't it more a mixture of bf and hq9 rather than bf and hq9+?
15:54:13 <myname> "it is hq9+, but the + got removed
16:09:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46166&oldid=46165 * Ennullizer * (+61)
16:10:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46167&oldid=46130 * Ennullizer * (+15) /* H */
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16:12:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46168&oldid=46166 * Ennullizer * (+25)
16:16:06 <lambdabot> CYUL 161613Z 02009KT 2 1/2SM -SN FEW012 OVC022 M04/M07 A2943 RMK SF2SC6 SLP971
16:16:21 <boily> a perfect day for coffee.
16:16:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46169&oldid=46168 * Ennullizer * (+2) /* HQ9+ part */
16:16:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46170&oldid=46169 * Ennullizer * (-2) /* External resources */
16:22:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46171&oldid=46170 * Ennullizer * (+110)
16:24:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46172&oldid=46171 * Ennullizer * (+14) /* HQ9+ part */
16:25:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46173&oldid=46172 * Ennullizer * (+8) /* HQ9+ part */
16:25:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46174&oldid=46173 * Ennullizer * (+5) /* Deep Thought extension */
16:29:47 <mauris> that BF implementation is broken, oops
16:31:09 <mauris> ('[' should skip to the corresponding ']' if the current cell is 0)
16:31:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46175&oldid=46174 * Ennullizer * (+6) /* HQ9+ instructions */
16:31:22 <mauris> i'd let them know, but, boring language :[
16:31:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46176&oldid=46175 * Ennullizer * (+2) /* Syntax overview */
16:44:00 <boily> question: anybody else has problems with youtube at the moment? there's no CSS whatsoever.
16:50:32 <boily> and reddit has a 502 bad gateway...
16:50:53 * boily strums a few chords of blues on an air banjo ♪
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17:13:05 <HackEgo> AlexR42: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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17:20:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ennullizer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46177 * Ennullizer * (+31) Created page with "==Esolangs by me== [[Hu9eFuck]]"
17:20:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ennullizer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46178&oldid=46177 * Ennullizer * (+0) /* Esolangs by me */
17:22:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ennullizer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46179&oldid=46178 * Ennullizer * (+45)
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18:40:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ennullizer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46180 * Ennullizer * (+133) Created page with "Hello! Don't be shy to leave your messages and questions. Due to my native language ain't English, sorry for all the mistakes I make."
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19:03:05 <boily> quinthellopia! which alex?
19:06:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46181&oldid=45787 * Ennullizer * (+15) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
19:08:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46182&oldid=46176 * Ennullizer * (+4)
19:09:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46183&oldid=46181 * Ennullizer * (+47) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
19:10:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46184&oldid=46167 * Ennullizer * (-15) /* H */
19:13:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ennullizer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46185&oldid=46179 * Ennullizer * (+194) /* Esolangs by me */
19:16:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46186&oldid=46182 * Ennullizer * (+37)
19:18:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46187&oldid=46186 * Ennullizer * (+5)
19:24:27 <boily> time for a strategic nap.
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19:43:03 <ais523> so I've been playing Crypt of the Necrodancer recently, and have concluded that it is probably Turing-complete
19:43:09 <ais523> although I haven't tried very hard to program in it yet
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20:00:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ennullizer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46188&oldid=46185 * Ennullizer * (+185) /* Hq9eFuck */
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20:08:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ennullizer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46189&oldid=46188 * Ennullizer * (+63) /* Hq9eFuck */
20:09:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46190&oldid=46187 * Ennullizer * (+66) /* Implementation */
20:09:43 <Taneb> Only in #esoteric: "I think this rhythm game is turing complete"
20:09:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46191&oldid=46190 * Ennullizer * (+1) /* Implementation */
20:13:29 <Elronnd> my friend is a cyclist and a programmer, and a running joke between him and his wife is whether his bikes are turing/touring complete
20:13:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ennullizer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46192&oldid=46189 * Ennullizer * (+10) /* Me */
20:17:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ennullizer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46193&oldid=46192 * Ennullizer * (+29) /* Me */
20:19:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46194&oldid=46191 * Ennullizer * (+28)
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20:35:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ennullizer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46195&oldid=46193 * Ennullizer * (+8) /* Hq9eFuck */
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21:32:26 <\oren\> seen from a time complexity point of view, there are several unnamed variants of BF
21:32:52 <ais523> Taneb: I think you can do it even assuming that the level has only a finite amount that isn't open space
21:33:24 <ais523> the problem there is generating an infinite supply of enemies
21:35:44 <\oren\> see, suppose you come across a ], and the current cell isn't 0. finding the next instruction, depending on the interpreter, might take O(1) time beacuse we know where it is, or O(n) time to search for the matching [.
21:36:53 <\oren\> similarly, an [ might take O(1) or O(n).
21:38:15 <\oren\> so, I call these variants bf[11], bf[1N], bf[N1] and bf[NN]
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21:39:46 <\oren\> a naive interpreter would typically implement bf[NN], while my stupid trick interpreter is bf[N1].
21:40:32 <\oren\> a jit type thing would make it bf[11]
21:40:42 <ais523> or just using a compiler
21:41:05 <fizzie> fungot does bf[11] in those terms, though the distinction sounds only relevant if you're generating a piece of brainfuck code that depends on the size of some problem of interest.
21:41:05 <fungot> fizzie: ( for some unfathomable reason i didn't do cs but math is of three elements.) are becoming more and more annoying
21:42:21 <hppavilion[1]> Is the concept of "coproduct" (as seen on TV! If all you watch is documentaries on Category Theory) applicable to normal numbers?
21:42:45 <lambdabot> nortti said 8h 6m 9s ago: ESOSC D3 and D4 never got approved and seems like the drafts got removed
21:43:18 <fizzie> If you're talking about the time complexity of some particular BF program to do a particular thing, which is possibly more common, the operations would still be constant-time.
21:44:36 <\oren\> this is only for comparing interpreters, not programs
21:45:56 <\oren\> BF[NN] means that when the interpreter wants to find the [ that a ] jumps to, it has to scan the code, and the same for ] and [
21:46:44 <\oren\> BF[NN] means [ and ] have O(N) time complexity
21:46:47 <ais523> \oren\: it's also possible that, say, < or > are O(N)
21:47:03 <ais523> and + and - might scale on the order of the magnitude being increased/decreased, on the position on the tape, or both
21:48:01 <hppavilion[1]> I like the idea of a programming language where the interpreter is a first-class object :)
21:48:25 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, I'm making a Mascarpone-derived language where /everything/ is modifyable and anonymous. Well, as much as possible.
21:48:45 <hppavilion[1]> And it's readable and not obviously esoteric, so we can trick uncautious programmers into using it seriously >:)
21:53:59 <ais523> wait, would a zombie turn around if it ran into a yeti?
21:54:57 <hppavilion[1]> Then the world would self-destruct for the good of the rest of the universe
21:56:47 <ais523> this seems to give us unlimited storage
21:56:51 <ais523> if an awkward storage to use
21:57:08 <ais523> even with finitely many enemies
21:57:28 <ais523> I guess what we do is, we have two yeti/zombie pairs to represent one counter
21:57:53 <ais523> turn the zombies around every time they get back home (this is easy)
21:58:16 <ais523> then we can encode an unbounded integer in the difference in time that it takes the two zombies to arrive
21:58:27 <ais523> yes, similar idea, except it's all in timings, nothing in payloads
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21:59:03 <ais523> next question is how to detect that the two zombies are arriving with a particular time difference
21:59:10 <ais523> we could use a separate zombie at right angles, I guess
21:59:16 <ais523> I can't think of a way to do it with a slime
21:59:44 <ais523> hmm, maybe unless the slime was walking on a chain of confusion traps
22:02:18 <ais523> oh, a blue sime can only move in one direction if you place the confusion traps at alternating locations like I did
22:02:27 <ais523> you could get a yellow slime to move in a circuit though I think
22:04:30 <ais523> got it: you conceptually divide the grid into a larger grid of 2x2 squares
22:04:38 <ais523> then make that into a checkerboard
22:04:49 <ais523> wait, this depends a lot on the timing
22:14:01 <hppavilion[1]> I just gave someone advice on how to get out of a coding rut. I feel so smart. I hope it worked. I would feel bad if it didn't.
22:14:34 <ais523> oh gah, this is nondeterministic?
22:14:52 <ais523> or at least, I seem to be able to throw off the timing via movement that's a /long/ way from the beat
22:16:18 <tswett> "Due to my native language ain't English, sorry for all the mistakes I make." - I hope that was intentional.
22:16:27 <tswett> Sounds intentional if you ask me.
22:16:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: iyam: not found
22:16:57 <hppavilion[1]> I have been tempted to make a post ending with "Sorry for the bad english, I repeatedly google translated it so it wouldn't sound natural"
22:17:07 <tswett> `learn IYAM is like IANAL, except yam instead of anal.
22:17:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'iyam': IYAM is like IANAL, except yam instead of anal.
22:18:03 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you must actually repeatedly google translate it, and repeatedly google translate that bit too
22:18:11 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: "I am not a lawyer"
22:18:30 <ais523> it's the usual disclaimer when you talk about the law, on the basis that pretending to be a lawyer is illegal
22:18:41 <ais523> I think tswett made IYAM up
22:21:33 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: It is, it is, there it it, it will need to translate it, Google of it, in English, to me, is, 1 it to the shame of the throat for what is bad also because it does not listen Although not part, I, of course, but, you repeat the position that it has not been has of placement
22:21:44 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: "if you ask me"
22:29:50 <tswett> That translation occasionally included "I am sorry for the English" or "I pity the English".
22:31:33 <int-e> wow, fungot writes better english than that...
22:31:34 <fungot> int-e: c's syntax?' you have not scrolled down at all. the vote selected a black white logo!
22:32:27 <int-e> (But I guess fungot is cheating a bit)
22:32:28 <fungot> int-e: i'm pretty depressed myself: not a directory.' i'm curious where you learned it. i prefer minimal changes if any to paredit.el, but is also quite nice, imho
22:33:19 <fizzie> fungot: Look, just because it's not a directory is no reason to get depressed.
22:33:20 <fungot> fizzie: after k-f-newline has been enqueued, start is the in-range's end, and you write the missing tests
22:33:24 <ais523> tswett: "I am sorry for the English" is actually ambiguous, it could mean either "sorry for my English" or "I pity the English"
22:34:04 -!- int-e has set topic: Depressing files | The international hub for magic gathering and deployment. | Effi's finest fluffy waffles | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/ | This part of the topic was the second added in 2016.
22:34:10 <fizzie> ais523: I thought it was someone apologizing on behalf of the English.
22:34:33 <ais523> oh, ambiguous three ways :-)
22:34:33 <fizzie> As in, sorry for what they did to your country, or some-such.
22:35:40 <fizzie> We went through the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich today while thereabouts, and it seemed to be mostly about the slave trade across the Atlantic, and the part where the East India Company filled China with opium.
22:36:01 <fizzie> At least they're not trying to sugarcoat things.
22:36:49 <int-e> . o O ( so there were no pills? )
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22:58:34 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you can only do that by mishearing the sentence though
23:05:44 <hppavilion[1]> Encryption which requires things like entering a password to decrypt
23:08:05 <Taneb> ais523, what about "I'm sorry about all the English people that I brought here"?
23:08:18 <ais523> Taneb: oh yes, that works too
23:08:29 <ais523> although it might be the same meaning as fizzie's
23:08:44 <Taneb> I don't think it is
23:17:31 <zzo38> I have added a few commands into XISYNTH such as: COM$ FCO IF LPF~ RBPF RHPF RLPF WG2
23:20:11 <zzo38> What is it configuring?
23:21:09 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It's a general-purpose CFG with the minor side-benefit of being TC
23:21:31 <zzo38> OK, although possibly many program will do anyways
23:21:56 <zzo38> Even JavaScript (which is the superset of JSON), and also SQL
23:22:34 <zzo38> But if the format has a C syntax then you can even use C preprocessor with it, without the problem!
23:23:09 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Yes, but this is a dedicated configuration file
23:23:50 <zzo38> Yes, although I am also saying that such format could have a syntax compatible with C preprocessor and then you can use it with C preprocessor
23:26:46 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], that makes me think of nix
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23:32:05 <fizzie> Oh, also from the Maritime Museum: they had a cards of the form "I think exploration is [adjective] because... [space for free-form text]" that you could hang up on the wall. Someone had left a card that said:
23:32:10 <fizzie> "I think exploration is irrelevant because...
23:32:20 <fizzie> Can't really argue with that.
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23:59:59 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: "Turing-complete configuration" is more or less what Lua is. It's certainly used for that purpose quite a lot.
00:02:31 <int-e> and then there's m4/sendmail
00:03:04 <int-e> (both of which are TC but that didn't stop people from combining them...)
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00:19:04 <hppavilion[1]> LISP is a programming language based on Lists. Is there some other structure that we could base a language on?
00:22:40 <zzo38> There is a lot of thing probably
00:23:08 <zzo38> Forth based on stack, SQL based on database, etc
00:25:41 <zgrep> Hmm... based on pictures of kittens?
00:26:15 <zzo38> How is it working?
00:26:46 <zgrep> In a very pettable way.
00:28:29 <fizzie> Grasp is just LISP on (directed, labeled multi)graphs.
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00:47:39 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn Turing/Turing is what you are doing when you Tur
00:48:30 <hppavilion[1]> `learn To Tur is to sleep with someone of the same gender as yourself
00:48:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'to': To Tur is to sleep with someone of the same gender as yourself
00:48:47 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn Tur/To Tur is to sleep with someone of the same gender as yourself
00:49:17 <hppavilion[1]> (Get it? Because Alan Turing was gay? <insert that weird laugh from Jurassic Park here>)
00:53:09 <shachaf> it didn't actually have to be done. hth
00:54:06 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:55:03 <shachaf> In fact Knuth has already defined "to ture".
00:55:24 <shachaf> http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/news12.html
01:09:58 <hppavilion[1]> And by that I mean `"@" "." redef "walrus" @` works!
01:15:18 <hppavilion[1]> When you define an instruction, you define it in terms of the current instruction set
01:15:52 <hppavilion[1]> So if you redefine . then redefine ! in terms of ., it'll use the new definition of . as its new definition
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01:43:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Imaginer1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46196&oldid=43264 * Imaginer1 * (-188)
01:45:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Imaginer1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46197&oldid=46196 * Imaginer1 * (+6)
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01:53:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Imaginer1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46198&oldid=46197 * Imaginer1 * (+1)
01:58:40 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: have you seen http://esolangs.org/wiki/Takeover ?
01:59:14 <ais523> that lets you define instructions in terms of the current instruction set, but also the previous, next, first and last instruction sets
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02:01:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Takeover]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46199&oldid=46082 * Ais523 * (+111) /* Hello, world! */ fix a missing half of a sentence
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03:03:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Newbiefuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46200 * Oerjan * (+1442) Documenting one of the most common brainfuck derivatives (someone else can check if there's already an equivalent one).
03:04:57 <oerjan> HAI I MADE BRAINFUCK DERIVATIVE HTH
03:07:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46201&oldid=46183 * Oerjan * (+108) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
03:09:19 <olsner> oerjan: you know where the brick goes
03:09:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46202&oldid=46201 * Oerjan * (+10) /* Brainfuck derivatives */ rephrase
03:09:54 <oerjan> olsner: AAAAAAAAAAAAAA
03:10:12 <oerjan> olsner: i can claim not to have really invented it, though
03:10:23 <ais523> oerjan: I implemented that live in channel on bsmnt_bot (remember that?)
03:10:40 <ais523> however, I was aware that it wasn't BF
03:11:10 <ais523> did it to learn the basics of Python
03:11:22 <ais523> also it was pretty much unreadable because it used one-space indentation and wrote newlines as \n
03:11:25 <ais523> with an exec() around the whole thing
03:11:32 <ais523> braces would have been /much/ easier to read, but Python doesn't support them
03:12:42 <ais523> I need to work on Statistical Brainfuck some time (note: this isn't miscapitalized; it's in titlecase)
03:12:53 <oerjan> obligatory question we've probably asked before: is it TC
03:13:16 <ais523> I think we concluded yes (but it's not brainfuck-complete because it can't conditionally produce either some output or no output)
03:14:15 <ais523> the idea of statistical brainfuck is, you look at the input code
03:14:26 <ais523> attempt to deduce eight commands from it
03:14:31 <ais523> and execute that as BF
03:14:44 <ais523> if you can't interpret it as a meaningful BF equivalent program, you just print hello world
03:15:04 <ais523> the hope is that this would act as a universal interp for basically all the awful bf derivatives on the wiki
03:16:09 * oerjan notices <code> tags in wikitables on the wiki are no longer invisible...
03:16:18 <ais523> I guess the thing that it implements would technically be a language
03:16:26 <ais523> but it's more intended as an /interp/ than a language
03:16:29 <oerjan> is that something new with the last upgrade fizzie did
03:16:32 <ais523> that makes fun of the languages it's interpreting
03:18:26 <oerjan> does it work with >1 - character commands
03:19:26 <oerjan> also does it try to support comments
03:38:20 * oerjan is still amused by how different the new version of tatham's Filling puzzle is
03:39:41 <oerjan> previously, you could count on a 1 in strategic places where you otherwise had to guess. now most of those places require you to find an area without any given digits.
03:40:00 <oerjan> (and there are much fewer 1s)
03:42:23 <oerjan> also, i don't remember being able to select large areas with the keyboard before, but maybe i just didn't read the help enough
03:43:41 <Elronnd> Oh hey, apparently QC has travelled through time again
03:44:16 <Elronnd> http://questionablecontent.net
03:44:32 <Elronnd> A couple of comics had weird copyright dates
03:45:25 <oerjan> we shall still have to wait a little while to travel through time with quantum computing, then.
03:45:44 <oerjan> `learn ic what you did there.
03:45:51 <HackEgo> Learned 'ic': ic what you did there.
04:04:58 <coppro> today I taught myself to vikeys with my left hand
04:05:10 <coppro> I'd forgotten how steep the learning curve is... a video game was not the best place to try it
04:05:30 <Elronnd> I use vikeys on my left hand to play minecraft
04:05:38 <Elronnd> when I play it, that is, which is not frequent
04:10:03 <coppro> ... I spent the entire day playing lego star wars
04:11:02 <coppro> a legoized adventure game
04:11:23 <coppro> the game rewards blowing up anything and everything you see
04:12:09 <coppro> LEGO in general publishes really good video games. There are exceptions, but they have a really good record
04:14:13 <coppro> with that one in particular, there are a lot of games based on the same fundamental gameplay and engine... the newest one is a massive crossover
04:14:17 <coppro> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lego_Dimensions)
04:14:22 <coppro> haven't played that though
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04:49:37 <shachaf> I keep forgetting when it does and doesn't work.
04:50:06 <oerjan> i did not see it in the browser
04:50:34 <oerjan> but afair you cannot uncreate a file with it
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04:59:01 <\oren\> 砂破磁秘程税穀筋策築簡精糖系紅納純素経統絶絹綿総編縦縮績織罪署群翌耕聖職肥背胸能脳臨
05:01:28 <coppro> so, gocomics.com is an online site that publishes classic comic serials
05:01:42 <coppro> I want an RSS feed so that I can, say, starting tomorrow, get one calvin and hobbes a day
05:03:26 <Elronnd> I don't know rss; sorry, can't help
05:04:42 <\oren\> I have a long way to go: http://www.orenwatson.be/jouyou_and_jinmeiyou_kanji.htm
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05:38:17 <hppavilion[1]> A programming language where, after execution, each line is hashed
05:38:39 <hppavilion[1]> The hash's output is converted to some 16-character subset of ascii
06:20:16 <hppavilion[1]> What kinds of things can one do with dictionaries?
06:35:55 <coppro> you can look up the meaning of a word
06:36:10 <coppro> you can browse to look for interesting words
06:36:15 <coppro> you can hit somebody over the head with it
06:36:42 <coppro> you can see how a word inflects
06:36:50 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: I mean the operations on associative arrays
06:36:57 <coppro> those are far less interesting
06:37:21 <coppro> why would you make a dictionary out of cheese?
06:37:26 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: One that is disguised as a more usable language
06:49:26 * pikhq notes that the people who come up with image formats mostly suck at designing good image formats
06:50:12 <coppro> what do they do wrong?
06:50:30 <pikhq> Bizarro pointless complexity.
06:50:50 <pikhq> PNM is a "simple" image format. ... It has comment syntax.
06:51:25 <pikhq> (as just one simple, easy to explain example)
06:51:34 <pikhq> But this is really common in general.
06:52:19 <coppro> is it intended to be human-editable like XBM?
06:52:32 <coppro> (which, I grant, is a shitty format)
06:52:48 <pikhq> It has a variant that is and a variant that isn't.
06:53:47 <pikhq> There's other "special" things out there like PNG, which has redundant checksums and different endianness depending on which part you're looking at...
06:54:05 <pikhq> And then there's BMP, the Windows-internal-struct-put-into-a-file.
06:55:48 <pikhq> ... Which is also written upside down.
06:56:04 <pikhq> Except when the height is negative.
06:57:21 <coppro> I wrote a bmp parser once
06:57:50 <pikhq> Even just writing something that writes BMP isn't the nicest.
06:58:09 <pikhq> (easier than other common image formats, but still)
07:01:11 <pikhq> Purely in terms of not-sucking I like http://tools.suckless.org/farbfeld/ , but who the fuck uses that?
07:02:45 <pikhq> ... Aaaand it changed to using not sRGB
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07:56:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beatnik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46203&oldid=42458 * 98.144.6.77 * (+336) /* Example programs */ Added truth-machine
07:56:50 <\oren\> BMP is pretty easy to read iirc, you can just fseek to the info you need.
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07:57:41 <\oren\> (well, so long as you only want to read bmp's in the most common format)
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08:11:10 <hppavilion[1]> 0.3183098861837907 would probably be a better fit for the name "co-pi" now that I think about it
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08:32:42 <oerjan> > exp(1/pi)^ln 10 -- from ISC
08:32:44 <lambdabot> data constructor ‘In’ (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Tru...
08:33:05 <oerjan> > exp(1/pi)^log 7 -- from ISC
08:33:06 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Integral b0) arising from a use of ‘^’
08:33:07 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: Floating a => a
08:33:18 <oerjan> > exp(1/pi)**log 7 -- from ISC
08:34:35 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that's very tied to base 10
08:35:07 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It's nice in an OCD kind of way, not in a mathematical kind of way
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08:50:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ennullizer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46204&oldid=46180 * Ennullizer * (+4)
08:50:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ennullizer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46205&oldid=46204 * Ennullizer * (+0)
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11:24:01 <\oren\> Hmm... While I wasn't able to get my font to be any less blurry under antialiasing, I learned more about the internals of truetype, and I reduced the filesize to about half what it was.
11:45:25 <\oren\> Maybe I need to learn how to make hints, if i want it to be unblurred
11:46:26 <\oren\> but that doesn't make any SENSE! how can it be blurry when every line and point is on the exact boundary between pixels?!!>
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12:22:14 <lambdabot> LOWI 171150Z 08003KT 030V160 7000 -SN FEW005 SCT010 BKN035 M02/M04 Q1017 R08/29//95 TEMPO 2000 SHSN BKN013
12:23:17 <int-e> snow shower, of course...
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12:45:38 <\oren\> rrgh trying to make this look ok at angles is driving me nuts. fuck it, for now I'll just put a disclaimer that this font doesn't work with cleartype in a way that baffles me.
12:51:08 <\oren\> somehow cleartype is drawing the font blurring things across pixels, even though the outlines should fall perfectly on the pixels
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13:01:19 <int-e> \oren\: hmm. one idea is that they want to be able to place glyphs at subpixel precision and and have them look evenly blurred; another idea is that they apply a filter to avoid colored fringes on LCD displays.
13:02:03 <int-e> I guess this is also a way of selling 4k displays :P
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13:11:15 <quintopia> i want to hear more about programming in crypt of the necrodancer
13:17:10 <b_jonas> \oren\: also, don't true type fonts (or maybe otf only) allow you to embed bitmap or graymap image versions of the font for particular sizes?
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13:43:00 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/kill
13:43:15 <int-e> `` od -tx1 wisdom/kill
13:47:59 <HackEgo> Ka-ya-ya-ya. Ka-ya-ya-ya-ya. Ka-ya-ya-ya. Ka-ya-ya-ya-ya.
13:48:32 <HackEgo> cat: kill: No such file or directory
13:54:14 <HackEgo> monoids/Monoids are just categories with single objects.
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13:56:50 <boily> `le/rn b_jonas/Ő egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
13:57:16 <HackEgo> spam/Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/
13:58:27 * boily didn't do anything. nobody has proof!
13:59:53 <myname> wait. so _one_ monoid is _one_ categorie with _one_ single object?
14:02:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Seriously]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46206&oldid=45959 * Quintopia * (+115) tm and links
14:02:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Seriously]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46207&oldid=46206 * Quintopia * (+25) /* Implementation */
14:03:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Seriously]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46208&oldid=46207 * Quintopia * (+3) /* [Truth-machine] */
14:04:52 <HackEgo> grue/grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean
14:04:59 <int-e> myname: category. yes.
14:05:08 <b_jonas> fungot, do you have a supernatural ability activated by a touch attack?
14:05:08 <fungot> b_jonas: is css turing complete? i don't think he'll click on anything. feel stuck in myself.
14:06:00 <int-e> so why do grues lurk in dark places and eat adventurers?
14:06:43 <int-e> fungot: excellent question
14:06:43 <fungot> int-e: sisc rulez. its totally programmed in lisp and thus able to be applied to the generic will be.
14:07:03 <int-e> the generic will be, hmm.
14:07:46 <boily> adventurers are part of a complete breakfast hth
14:08:53 <myname> int-e: so a monad is a category with a category in it?
14:08:58 <int-e> I thought "will be" might be "future" in simple English, but actually "future" is on the list, and "generic" isn't...
14:09:34 <boily> myname: a monad is a monoid in the category of endofunctors.
14:09:39 <int-e> myname: afaiu, yes, the object is a category and the arrows are endofunctors.
14:10:07 <myname> boily: that is what i puzzled together
14:10:52 <boily> there was a moment some months ago where that sentence made sense to me, but now I'm as confused as ever by everything categorical.
14:11:17 <myname> oh wait, a category with a single endomorphism
14:13:01 <int-e> Ah, that's the point; the arrows are Kleisli arrows, and the monoid operation is Kleisly composition.
14:16:41 <int-e> `? abstract nonsense
14:16:42 <HackEgo> abstract nonsense? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:17:07 <b_jonas> `? zigohystomorphic prepromorphism
14:17:08 <HackEgo> zigohystomorphic prepromorphism? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:17:17 <b_jonas> `? zygohistomorphic prepromorphism
14:17:18 <HackEgo> A zygohistomorphic prepromorphism is used when you really need both semi-mutual recursion and history and to repeatedly apply a natural transformation as you get deeper into the functor.
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14:24:09 <HackEgo> #include <stdio.h> \ char*a="#include <stdio.h>\nchar*a=\"@\";\nvoid main(){char*b=a;for(;(*a)!=0;a++){switch(*a){case '@':if(!(*b))putchar('@');for(;(*b)!=0;b++){switch(*b){case '\"':case '\\\\':putchar('\\\\');putchar(*b);break;case '\\n':putchar('\\\\');putchar('n');break;default:putchar(*b);}}break;default:putchar(*a);}}}"; \ void main(){cha
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14:29:13 <HackEgo> wc: quines/c.c: No such file or directory
14:29:17 <b_jonas> I have more C quines, including a shorter one and a long one
14:29:26 <HackEgo> quines/c: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.26, BuildID[sha1]=0x43f16cb0b675b5a43a7ab66f0458e0d3d0e4bd93, not stripped \ quines/cat: empty \ quines/perl: empty \ quines/python: empty \ quines/q: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynami
14:29:48 <HackEgo> const long main[]={7957687918238111208,2334956356649383027,8880356687520293229,13906764017533270909,1419365910561212297,2626879827020416271,16736655261603120681,17579598881254060795,1623775261490201216,5242470257800545608,1149026244854305933,14731853813082619653,194239108057989552,837530158351,};
14:29:59 <b_jonas> c=";p(i){putchar(i);}a(){p(34);printf(c);}main(){p(99);a(a(p(61)));}";p(i){putchar(i);}a(){p(34);printf(c);}main(){p(99);a(a(p(61)));}
14:30:33 <b_jonas> and I have several quines in other languages
14:30:45 <FireFly> I'm not a very good quiner
14:31:02 <b_jonas> I have a particular favourite quine that works in lots of languages, although isn't always efficient
14:31:44 <b_jonas> print+("print+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]
14:32:20 <b_jonas> that's in perl. it's also quite short in J, but gets horribly long (824 bytes properly formatted) in sqlite
14:32:58 <b_jonas> (but I have two shorter quines for sqlite)
14:33:21 <int-e> `c char*s="char*s=%c%s%c;main(){printf(s,34,s,34);}";main(){printf(s,34,s,34);}
14:33:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: c: not found
14:33:28 <b_jonas> some of the shorter ones are already in the channel log here
14:33:55 <b_jonas> that might need a lenient compiler that allows implicit int and K&R functions by the way
14:34:07 <fizzie> `cc char*s="char*s=%c%s%c;main(){printf(s,34,s,34);}";main(){printf(s,34,s,34);}
14:34:10 <HackEgo> char*s="char*s=%c%s%c;main(){printf(s,34,s,34);}";main(){printf(s,34,s,34);}
14:34:35 <fizzie> There's also `! c with a slightly different wrapping.
14:35:54 <fizzie> `! c char*s="char*s=%c%s%c;main(){printf(s,34,s,34);}";main(){printf(s,34,s,34);}
14:35:56 <HackEgo> char*s="char*s=%c%s%c;main(){printf(s,34,s,34);}";main(){printf(s,34,s,34);}
14:36:04 <fizzie> Seems to work. It had some issues with the auto-main it does.
14:36:11 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:8: error: expected declaration specifiers or ‘...’ before string constant \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
14:36:22 <b_jonas> I wrote it ages ago, back when compilers were K&R like that by default
14:36:36 <b_jonas> (as in, they allowed both K&R and Ansi functions, and allowed implicit int
14:37:12 <int-e> `cc #include<stdio.h>\nchar*s="#include<stdio.h>%cchar*s=%c%s%c;int main(){printf(s,34,s,34);}%c";int main(){printf(s,10,34,s,34,10);}
14:37:14 <HackEgo> #include<stdio.h> \ char*s="#include<stdio.h>%cchar*s=%c%s%c;int main(){printf(s,34,s,34);}%c";int main(){printf(s,34,s,34);}
14:37:14 <b_jonas> but it's not hard to fix it to work in an ANSI C compiler, just fix the head of main both places identically
14:37:53 <int-e> oh, forgot to adapt the other printf
14:38:08 <int-e> `cc #include<stdio.h>\nchar*s="#include<stdio.h>%cchar*s=%c%s%c;int main(){printf(s,10,34,s,34,10);}%c";int main(){printf(s,10,34,s,34,10);}
14:38:10 <HackEgo> #include<stdio.h> \ char*s="#include<stdio.h>%cchar*s=%c%s%c;int main(){printf(s,10,34,s,34,10);}%c";int main(){printf(s,10,34,s,34,10);}
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14:38:33 <b_jonas> oh yes, you may have to declare int printf(char *,...);
14:45:59 <b_jonas> ARGH! this needs three hands to replace, and I only have two
14:51:43 <fizzie> const char *! I believe it's technically required.
14:51:48 <fizzie> (C11 6.5.2.2p9: "If the function is defined with a type that is not compatible with the type -- pointed to by the expression that denotes the called function, the behavior is undefined." C11 6.7.6.3p15: "For two function types to be compatible -- corresponding parameters shall have compatible types." C11 6.7.6.1p2: "For two pointer types to be compatible, both shall be identically qualified ...
14:51:54 <fizzie> ... --". C11 7.21.6.3p1: "int printf(const char * restrict format, ...);".)
14:52:27 <fizzie> (The "restrict" part can perhaps be omitted via the special exemption in 6.7.6.3p15: "In the determination of type compatibility -- each parameter declared with qualified type is taken as having the unqualified version of its declared type." But that doesn't apply recursively to the pointed-to type.)
14:55:59 <fizzie> And don't go bringing the "interchangeability" footnote 48 from C11 6.2.5p28 into this, there's a defect report response from the committee saying it (well, its nearly identical sibling) is intended merely as a recommendation to make things work, not as a binding requirement.
14:58:11 <fizzie> Fun fact to ponder about: because the format argument of printf is restrict-qualified, is the quine invoking undefined behavior by passing s both as the format and as an argument for %s?
15:00:38 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't think so, because the %s arguments aren't restrict-qualified
15:00:51 <b_jonas> you can certainly pass the same value multiple times to multiple %s formatters in printf
15:01:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: what you aren't allowed to do is to use sprintf and have the output string overlap with either one of the inputs or the format string; or use scanf or sscanf and have one of the format output places overlap with the format string or the input.
15:01:35 <fizzie> I don't think that really helps. But looking at the actual restrict definition, it seems to only matter if there is some modification of the object involved, so it probably doesn't matter.
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17:08:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beatnik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46209&oldid=46203 * 98.144.6.77 * (+5) /* Truth machine */ Oops, JPBK_NZ instruction given wrong value.
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17:49:34 <quintopia> i just did "source .bashrc" and now all my stuff is gone. sudo doesn't work. curl doesn't work. how was the environment being set up before?
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18:24:48 <int-e> sounds like a lot of fun
18:26:20 <HackEgo> Odisseus: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
18:26:48 <Odisseus> it is the first time that I am in here
18:28:23 <Odisseus> yes I see...but there is a lot of silence...
18:28:50 <Odisseus> maybe all people talk in private place
18:29:06 <myname> for a channel with that few people, it's actually quite noisy
18:30:21 <Odisseus> do you know how I can go to the brasialian channel?
18:30:50 <myname> what is _the_ brasilian channel?
18:31:13 <Odisseus> I meant the channell from brasil
18:36:59 <int-e> there's a very small ##brazil... #freenode is a general channel for asking such questions, but it's quite possible that no such community exists on freenode
18:38:09 <myname> that is one impatient noob
18:38:18 <myname> how did he even get here?
18:38:27 <Odisseus> ah...understand...and where #? can I find a right channel
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18:43:53 <int-e> quintopia: so what happened, did somebody plant a rm -rf / in your .bashrc?
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18:52:26 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: it should find its way to the home directory eventually ;)
18:52:53 <int-e> and it should also get some interesting pipes in /tmp
18:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> no but every modern version of rm halts if you tell it to delete /
18:54:18 <int-e> but basically, "all my stuff is gone." doesn't make sense to me.
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19:18:32 <\oren\> b_jonas: I tried embedding a bitmap. It seems windows and firefox don't want to use it.
19:28:12 <fizzie> I've got a pixely font for the rfk86 website, I wonder if that's blurry as well on Windows.
19:29:22 <fizzie> It's looked all right for me, but I've not tested it widely.
19:31:16 <\oren\> I have noticed that instead of the "ebdt" and "eblc" tables in Microsoft documentation, I have "bdat" and "bloc" tables
19:31:30 <fizzie> It's used on http://zem.fi/rfk86/ and the font file is http://zem.fi/rfk86/rfk86.ttf and .eot -- but I've completely forgotten how I got those files.
19:32:17 <FireFly> Maybe the 'e' versions are extended or enhanced versions or something
19:33:22 <\oren\> yup, blurry. (of course, apparently my father can't see that it is blurry, so maybe only I can see these color fringes)
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19:37:24 <\oren\> I've replaced the font on my website with a ttf with a bitmap in which I've renamed the tables in question...
19:39:14 <\oren\> ok, i found the setting to generate "microsoft-style" ttfs
19:55:05 <\oren\> argh. nothing works. I think int-e may be right that it's blurring it in order to avoid apparent color fringing in other fonts, but for this font it increases the color fringing because it was already perfect.
19:56:43 <\oren\> on top of it, the gasp table doesn't appear to do anything
20:10:19 <\oren\> here's a screenshot of how it's fucking up my beautiful font http://www.orenwatson.be/uncleartype.png
20:11:07 <\oren\> see, it put stupid purple and cyan where it should be crisp white and black lines
20:12:14 <\oren\> it's like it thinks my lines are 5/3 of a pixel wide
20:12:20 <b_jonas> \oren\: try to nudge the whole page sideways by subpixel amounts with css?
20:13:24 <hppavilion[1]> What could I do to make a truly surreal GUI library?
20:14:38 <\oren\> Hmm, i nudged it a bit and now it's yellow
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20:16:14 <\oren\> now matter how I nudge it, the white pixels seem to be wider than one pixel wide
20:16:50 <b_jonas> \oren\: dunno. maybe it wants to gamma correct or something?
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21:50:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:0(nop^)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46210 * 50.161.94.113 * (+63) Created page with "== Why is there a distinction between functions and strings? =="
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23:36:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Beatnik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46211&oldid=16874 * 98.144.6.77 * (+1059)
23:36:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Beatnik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46212&oldid=46211 * 98.144.6.77 * (+80)
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23:47:30 <\oren\> somehow, firefox isn't messing up my font anymore?!?!?
23:47:47 <\oren\> FUCK, I don't even knwo how I did it!
23:54:44 <\oren\> cleartype does seem to be on, and yet.... WTF
23:55:09 <\oren\> did it somehow suddenly decide to listen to the gasp table?
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00:27:11 <\oren\> hmm I didn't change anything
00:27:57 <\oren\> I guess microsoft has saddled us with chramatic abberations
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00:36:57 <\oren\> oh for the love of god. apparently there is more or less blurriness depending on the foregorund and background colors.
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00:40:34 <\oren\> in particular, on black, you can mitigate the blur of white by tinting it with green, which because a pixel is RGB, appears to "centre" the pixels.
00:40:51 <\oren\> while red and blue cause things to be drawn way too wide
00:46:39 <lifthrasiir> is gasp widely supported? I knew of that but never understood how it works
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00:53:08 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: yeah. I was hoping to disable subpixels for my font using the gasp but it doesn't seem like it does anything
00:54:12 <lifthrasiir> I thought EBDT is more direct way to do that
00:54:50 <\oren\> EBDT doesn't seem to be supported either. putting it in doesn't do anything.
00:55:22 <hppavilion[1]> If a language were made to modify its own syntax at runtime
00:55:43 <\oren\> I think they hardcoded particular legacy CJK fonts to use bitmaps, but everything else ignores them
00:56:01 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: some concrete examples: Perl 6 and Seed7
00:58:00 <zgrep> I think also http://iolanguage.org might, maybe... unless I'm wrong.
00:58:48 <lifthrasiir> zgrep: I didn't include Lisp and Io because they retain the basic lexical structure
00:59:59 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: How do /you/ think syntax definition should be done?
01:00:15 <hppavilion[1]> Like, what would make for a good language with it?
01:00:42 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: I would define reasonable extension points in the grammar first and use an additional (fixed) syntax to extend the grammar.
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01:00:57 <lifthrasiir> i.e. it won't allow arbitrary composition and/or modification
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01:01:35 <lifthrasiir> Perl 6 goes much beyond that I think, but frankly speaking I'm not even sure what Perl 6 is going to be
01:01:41 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: I'm asking because I'm making a language called Gouda, which is basically Mascarpone but readable :)
01:02:19 <zgrep> lifthrasiir: Ahah.
01:10:24 <Sgeo> I should make another effort to understand Perl 6
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02:34:33 <HackEgo> thé/Thé is an oddly-spelled hot beverage popular in the Commonwealth.
02:35:07 <boily> indeed, we are part of the Commonwealth. strange but true.
02:35:37 <boily> I like me some pu'er.
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02:45:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Irino * New user account
02:48:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Trumpscript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46213 * Irino * (+26) Redirected page to [[TrumpScript]]
02:55:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TrumpScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46214 * Irino * (+549) Creation
02:56:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46215&oldid=46184 * Irino * (+18) Added TrumpScript
02:58:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46216&oldid=46154 * Hppavilion1 * (+236) Added simplegui
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03:00:38 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going through EsoKit and actually filling it out
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03:05:17 <hppavilion[1]> Designed to work for nearly any language, even esoteric ones
03:05:33 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, even if your language does nothing but input and print to the stderr, it's still designed to work
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03:22:53 <\oren\> Oh, i'm having problems now... I read "trumpscript" and immediatley though it was based on playing cards.
03:23:07 <\oren\> it's baed on donald trump instead.
03:23:30 <zzo38> O, do you play bridge (or whist) cards?
03:28:52 <\oren\> I used to play bridge online in the days of windows 2000
03:34:56 <hppavilion[1]> What if we made a Cellular Automaton usable for serious programming?
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03:52:03 <Sgeo> hppavilion[2], any connection to PSOX?
03:52:31 <hppavilion[2]> Sgeo: Entirely inspired. Practically a complete ripoff, really
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03:52:54 <hppavilion[1]> Who is this hppavilion[2] you speak of? I have never heard of him
03:53:20 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: Also, it does eso intrinsically (it is designed to be strange anyway)
03:53:34 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], I'll take a look, cool
03:55:08 <Sgeo> re TrumpScript: "There are no import statements allowed. All code has to be home-grown and Amerian made.
03:55:14 <Sgeo> I think that's a typo
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05:07:07 <Sgeo> "AG1 will be Hispasat's contribution to SGEO and important part of their ... AG1 is based on LUXOR bus like all SGEO satellites planned for further ..."
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05:21:02 <zgrep> What would it mean for a language to be... below a decision tree?
05:21:18 <coppro> also between FSA and PDA? Besides the facetious answer of "regular languages plus a^nb^n", DPDAs generate a set of languages that lies strictly between regular and context-free languages
05:23:39 <hppavilion[1]> Representing only a subset of Decision Tree languages
05:23:44 * zgrep decides to slowly back away from the conversation where things zgrep doesn't know are explained using things zgrep doesn't know. :P
05:23:56 <hppavilion[1]> Would a binary (or n-ary) decision tree accomplish that?
05:24:43 <coppro> not familiar with decision tree languages. What is the definition?
05:33:56 <zzo38> It look like to me that you can calculate infinite sums by same kind of methods whether it is convergent or divergent
05:34:34 <hppavilion[1]> With a Recursively Enumerable grammar, as opposed to a context-free one
05:41:39 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: That's not enough to define a language class
05:41:55 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: BF has an RE grammar but is TC
05:52:48 <\oren\> well what about a PDA where only one symbol can be pushed?
05:54:17 <\oren\> so you can recognize ((())) but not ({({})})
05:55:04 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: what do you mean by "below", then?
05:56:33 <\oren\> equivalently, a FSA with access to a counter with operations add 1, subract 1 and test for 0.
05:57:53 <adu> hppavilion[1]: --
06:01:14 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: http://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/7574/which-languages-are-recognized-by-one-counter-machines
06:01:21 <lifthrasiir> seems to have its own name: counter automaton
06:03:03 <\oren\> theres your answer hppavilion[1]. counter automation is between fsa and pda
06:03:23 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: we rank automata by their language classes
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06:31:44 <HackEgo> Ő egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
06:32:32 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/Ő/b_jonas/' wisdom/b_jonas
06:32:38 <HackEgo> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
06:33:44 <oerjan> the purpose wasn't to remove the accents
06:34:02 <oerjan> it was to change it to actually mention the keyword.
06:34:16 <lambdabot> KRNO 180555Z 16013KT 10SM SCT045 BKN065 BKN090 09/M03 A3005 RMK AO2 SLP169 T00891033 10117 20089 51013
06:34:23 <izabera> but maybe you *should* remove the accents
06:34:39 * oerjan swats izabera for linguistic heresy -----###
06:36:49 <shachaf> oerjan: a linguist i know says that accents are great
06:37:00 <shachaf> wait, that's linguistic hearsay
06:37:55 * oerjan waves the swatter in shachaf's general direction -----###
06:44:11 <HackEgo> abstract nonsense? ¯\(°_o)/¯
06:45:14 <oerjan> `le/rn abstract nonsense/We would have an explanation of abstract nonsense here, but it fled into a diagram and we haven't been able to chase it.
06:45:16 <HackEgo> Learned «abstract nonsense»
06:47:39 <shachaf> Abstract nonsense can be found in the first section of a category theory paper.
06:48:24 <shachaf> (Usually followed by introduction nonsense.)
06:49:27 <oerjan> <int-e> `quines/c <-- <recurrent thought pattern> . o O ( Why is quines/c an executable? They should have put the source somewhere. Oh wait... ) </recurrent thought pattern>
06:50:36 <hppavilion[1]> <hppavilion[1]> This message is not properly parseable <-- Because of that arrow
06:51:00 <oerjan> help i'm trapped in a fake html tag
06:51:34 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: HTML doesn't support tags with spaces in the tagname
06:52:06 <hppavilion[1]> You aren't trapped in XML, you're trapped in something even worse: Something that only looks like XML superficially
06:52:09 <shachaf> oerjan: I didn't think the closing tag was necessary, since that tag describes this channel pretty well.
06:52:15 <shachaf> No, the space is what makes that tag fake.
06:52:45 <shachaf> And of course <recurrent joke> would be perfectly fine HTML. It would mean something like <recurrent joke="joke">
06:53:22 <hppavilion[1]> But you can't put things in the closing tag, iisrc
06:53:43 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure <recurrent joke="joke"> is better hth
06:53:45 <shachaf> Good thing I didn't close the tag.
06:53:56 <shachaf> https://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/infrastructure.html#boolean-attributes
06:54:04 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: So we're still trapped in the recurrent joke?
06:54:19 <shachaf> Note: The values "true" and "false" are not allowed on boolean attributes. To represent a false value, the attribute has to be omitted altogether
06:55:15 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: NO YOU DON'T
06:55:29 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: I meant that </recurrent-thought-pattern> *is* a valid XML ending tag
06:55:46 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: no, i mean, wtf is kebab-case
06:55:49 <zgrep> Err... that ^ was meant to point at oerjan.
06:56:08 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHASHAHHHAHALFHL.ifjdsfLEQWRJDkjkajs
06:56:32 <zgrep> ifdjaksjkgdadqwer?
06:56:48 <lifthrasiir> the name "kebab-case" seems to be one of competing names for that convention
06:56:52 <hppavilion[1]> ;aklsdjf;lkajdfalka;oisejfaoisjf;fjfagfag;laksjfdoiwejfaosijefasdfj
06:57:19 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Oh, I get it. asdjk;kgdfdsdr. Makes sense.
06:57:20 <shachaf> oerjan: did you know "oerjan" was kebab case
06:57:48 <shachaf> i think better kebab case would be e.g. -oerjan------###
06:58:03 <oerjan> i am indeed a kebab case. maybe i'll have one today.
07:00:13 <hppavilion[1]> A programming language based on the Markov Algorithm, but generalized to be useful
07:00:16 <shachaf> is kebab case a special case of snack case
07:00:57 <shachaf> 8ball settles it. hppavilion[1]'s "No." is wrong
07:02:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pong: not found
07:03:28 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Then "`pung" should be something funny and unrelated
07:03:37 * oerjan accidentally has his whistling turn into a vision of waltzing mathilda played slowly on a pan flute
07:05:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
07:05:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hmm?: not found
07:05:54 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "why $1 is like wtf"
07:06:06 <HackEgo> why I AM THE WALRUS is like wtf
07:06:32 <HackEgo> tswett tswett shachaf shachaf elliott elliott nitia
07:07:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
07:07:15 <hppavilion[1]> I think `wtf or some similar command should output a randomly-selected completely batshit insane statement
07:07:20 <lifthrasiir> `` (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo pung) > bin/pong && chmod a+x bin/pong
07:07:26 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/pong: 2: /hackenv/bin/pong: pung: not found
07:07:30 <oerjan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FuqnxMzaMA 47:09
07:07:33 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/pong: 2: /hackenv/bin/pong: pung: not found
07:07:35 <lifthrasiir> `` (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo echo pung) > bin/pong && chmod a+x bin/pong
07:07:58 <zgrep> `` echo "exec $@" >> 'bin/ '
07:08:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
07:08:46 <zgrep> `` echo "echo `quine" >> quine
07:08:47 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
07:08:56 <zgrep> `` echo "echo \`quine" >> quine
07:09:05 <zgrep> I'm not sure if this is how HackEgo works...
07:09:18 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Also, "has", "his", and "whistling" <-- english grammar you fail at, hm?
07:09:30 <hppavilion[1]> `echo "echo Hello, World" > bin/hello-world-in-any-language && chmod a+x bin/hello-world-in-any-language
07:10:06 <izabera> well, it's still weird that it didn't print anything
07:10:09 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ ls: cannot access ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
07:10:10 <hppavilion[1]> `` echo "echo Hello, World" > bin/hello-world-in-any-language && chmod a+x bin/hello-world-in-any-language
07:10:37 <izabera> wait i didn't expect that error message
07:10:40 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ ls: cannot access ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
07:10:41 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `quine': No such file or directory
07:11:03 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: So we can do `hello-world-in-any language <languagename> and claim to have the world's largest database of Hello World programs
07:11:11 <zgrep> `ls /var/irclogs/_esoteric
07:11:15 <izabera> `` echo -n lives in: type -a echo
07:11:16 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ ls: cannot access ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
07:11:23 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/irclogs/_esoteric: No such file or directory
07:11:24 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/irclogs: No such file or directory
07:11:26 <HackEgo> "echo Hello, World" > bin/hello-world-in-any-language && chmod a+x bin/hello-world-in-any-language
07:11:32 <izabera> `` echo -n echo lives in:; type -a echo
07:11:33 <HackEgo> echo lives in:echo is a shell builtin \ echo is /bin/echo
07:11:33 -!- shachaf has left.
07:11:53 <zgrep> shikhin: Better than a SNAFU.
07:12:03 <zgrep> Err... sorry, shikhin.
07:12:10 <hppavilion[1]> `hello-world-in-any-language The Language of the Beast
07:12:11 <zgrep> Oh, wow. shachaf left. :(
07:12:45 <hppavilion[1]> `hello-world-in-any-language Python, but encoded by Enigma with a random key
07:13:29 <hppavilion[1]> `hello-world-in-any-language TheLanguageThatFailsForAnyInput
07:14:05 <lifthrasiir> `hello-world-in-any-language An Almost-Turing-Complete Language That Is Unable To Output "Hello, World!" Without Quotes
07:14:22 <lifthrasiir> `hello-world-in-any-language An Almost-Turing-Complete Language That Is Unable To Output "Hello, World" Without Quotes
07:14:25 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: I noticed, but didn't want to change it xD
07:14:46 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: I believe the implementation has a bug
07:15:07 <HackEgo> cat "$(find evil -type f | shuf -n1)" | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
07:15:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bug: not found
07:15:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bugs: not found
07:15:33 <lifthrasiir> so is it an extension to An Almost-Turing-Complete Language That Is Unable To Output "Hello, World" Without Quotes so that it is TC now?
07:17:01 <adu> hppavilion[1]: hi
07:17:20 <hppavilion[1]> Would `echo "cat \"$(find bugs -type f | shuf -n1)\"" > bin/bugs` create the desired command?
07:18:02 <adu> I hope you don't mind my anti-esoteric attitude
07:18:12 <lifthrasiir> `` (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo 'echo Zarro Boogs Found.') > bin/bugs; chmod a+x bin/bugs
07:19:01 <adu> I just think that researching esoteric functions can be done in mainstream languages
07:19:19 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/fix: No such file or directory
07:20:06 <adu> hppavilion[1]: tetration
07:20:29 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I'm a tetration junkie
07:20:30 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: I gave up, I cannot make that funnier
07:20:50 * adu cannot have enough of that good old tetration
07:21:06 <adu> hppavilion[1]: Chai
07:21:32 <adu> Chai == Tea + sugar + milk + various spices
07:21:41 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Hyper 5 is better called "penetration" than "pentation"
07:22:04 <adu> penetration will get you bitch slaped
07:22:16 <adu> pentation will make your date go home early
07:22:19 <oerjan> <zgrep> Oh, wow. shachaf left. :( <-- some people can only take so much "messing around with HackEgo without even noticing what they're actually doing." excuse me, i need to go kick a dog or something...
07:22:23 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Because that makes hyper 6- "sexation"- repeated penetration
07:22:28 <adu> ^ big difference
07:22:49 <zgrep> oerjan: I'm probably going to feel sorry for the dog or something you're going to kick.
07:23:33 <adu> hppavilion[1]: actually sexa- is Latin, the proper prefix is Greek hexa-
07:24:02 <adu> so hyper6 is "hexation"
07:24:22 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: a TC language does not need to be able to output "Hello, World", with or without quotes hth
07:24:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: grammar Nazis
07:26:20 <adu> do you know what Nazi means?
07:27:03 * oerjan kicks hppavilion[1] since he's part of the mess up _and_ is making stupidly lewd math jokes
07:27:05 <hppavilion[1]> adu: It's a political party- or it used to be for the most part- form Germany.
07:27:35 <oerjan> ah right. that makes it a classic, then.
07:27:37 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: I thought a language is not TC when there is a computable output of the language's codomain that is unable to output however. (technically speaking outputing "Hello, World" may not be in that codomain, but well, let's assume that it is) isn't it correct?
07:27:44 <adu> NAZI = "NAtional SocIalist"
07:28:04 <adu> lifthrasiir: german is different
07:28:27 <adu> hppavilion[1]: no, I don't because I don't have an explaination for the Z, except that german is different
07:28:48 <lifthrasiir> adu: I feel natsoc sounds much more English, in homage to ingsoc
07:29:51 <adu> the political party wasn't very radical, their platform was pretty much the same as give-stuff-to-the-little-guy politicians today
07:30:11 <adu> it was their actions that became associated with the term "Nazi"
07:30:13 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: all the output you need for TC is some way to encode any result. and we have a long discussion on the wiki about the quine-less language that's still TC and can output anything, but just not in the right computable way
07:32:18 <oerjan> adu: itym NAtional soCIalist hth
07:32:30 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: hmm, you are right. the bijective function from the computable number to the "output" of the language is enough for that language to be TC. I was slightly mistaken about the possibility of automorphic bijective function (ugh).
07:34:03 <adu> oerjan: I think that's how it's spelled in german
07:35:36 <oerjan> well it's the only place you could get the Z from.
07:37:46 <lifthrasiir> hmm, wait, it wasn't abbreviated in that way
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07:38:33 <lifthrasiir> National is pronunced /natsiona:l/ or similar in German, and its first two syllables are rendered as Nazi
07:39:48 <adu> lifthrasiir++ for a lesson in etymology
07:40:15 <lifthrasiir> and all of this research is due to procrastination at work
07:41:06 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party#Etymology
07:41:16 <adu> and because hppavilion[1] asked "Who cares about mixing roots?"
07:41:56 <oerjan> the nazis didn't call themselves that, as it was derogatory. the section claims the word existed in that sense before the party
07:44:43 * oerjan swats HackEgo -----###
07:44:49 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ ls: cannot access ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
07:45:21 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric; cat $(ls ????-??-??.txt | tail -1) | sed 's/[^>]*> //' | grep '^`' | tail -1 #Best cheating quine ever?
07:45:24 <oerjan> apparently you never managed to mess up the thing i was most angered by
07:46:57 <oerjan> i think HackEgo was so slow it performed the commands in the opposite order, so there was no file to move.
07:47:22 <oerjan> admittedly bin/quine is meaningless without working logs :(
07:48:35 <oerjan> tl;dr: you never managed to break anything i need to fix
07:49:09 <HackEgo> 5000 290 0.0 0.6 19136 1584 ? S 07:49 0:00 bash -c -- ps aux | grep $$ \ 5000 294 0.0 0.3 7768 888 ? S 07:49 0:00 grep 290
07:52:19 <HackEgo> sed s/\x00/ /g /proc/290/cmdline
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08:02:57 <HackEgo> vector space/A vector space is just a module over a field.
08:03:08 <HackEgo> unréliable/unréliable is French for «peu fiable».
08:16:55 <HackEgo> twhib/the world holds its breath
08:17:56 <HackEgo> danddreclist 74: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
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08:51:38 <HackEgo> supercalifragilisticexponential growth/Supercalifragilisticexponential growth leaves Graham's number in the dust.
08:51:51 <HackEgo> gnimmargorp/"Gnimmargorp" er algeng stafsetningarvilla af "grimmargorp".
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09:47:23 <HackEgo> Þór, Grimmargorpurinn hefur sloppið! Ragnarök eru nálæg!
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10:33:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beatnik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46217&oldid=46209 * 98.144.6.77 * (-6) /* Truth machine */ Removed final INPUT.
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10:59:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beatnik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46218&oldid=46217 * 98.144.6.77 * (+28) /* External resources */ Added Wayback Machine crawl of broken link - curiously, the crawl I found was the ONLY crawl
11:26:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beatnik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46219&oldid=46218 * Oerjan * (-17) /* External resources */ template
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11:35:53 <Taneb> http://agda.github.io/agda-stdlib/Data.Star.html is something that I don't know what it does
11:36:15 <Taneb> Oh, apparently it's a reflexive transitive closure?
11:36:46 <oerjan> so, smallest generated equivalence relation...
11:37:33 <oerjan> s/generated/containing/
11:38:46 <Taneb> Smallest containing preorder?
11:39:56 <oerjan> oh thank god there is agatha's weasel
11:40:22 <boily> bhellørjaaaa *yaaaaawn* n.
11:40:28 <oerjan> </sentences better without context>
11:41:05 <Taneb> oerjan, Agatha's weasel is very useful
11:41:19 <boily> sorry, not quite awake yet. had a night out. too much sushi.
11:41:31 <oerjan> Taneb: well i was worried it had got lost in the confusion
11:41:35 <boily> what's an agatha weasel?
11:41:52 <Taneb> boily, a weasel in the possession of Agatha
11:42:05 <oerjan> boily: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php second panel on her head
11:43:45 <boily> oh, this Agatha. tdh.
11:43:53 <oerjan> boily: it's a cuddly abomination with 8 legs and the power to detect revenants hth
11:45:00 <oerjan> it's also, apparently, good at teasing bears and getting away with it.
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11:47:37 * boily will catch up to all of this some day
11:49:38 <Taneb> I've got a friend who's been caught up with GG since it was only a print comic
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12:05:57 <coppro> for some strange reason I was reading the City of Toronto Act this morning. In Ontario legislation, each paragraph gets its own heading. There is a paragraph in that Act where the drafter clearly ran out of creativity as it is entitled "What the tax ratios are"
12:06:41 <Taneb> What are tax ratios
12:06:44 <Taneb> We just don't know
12:06:58 <boily> The tax ratios are. That's what they do.
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12:10:40 <coppro> the actual text is elucidating
12:11:15 <coppro> *"What tax ratios are"
12:11:17 <coppro> The tax ratios are the ratios that the tax rate for each property class must be to the tax rate for the residential property class where the residential property class tax ratio is one.
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12:14:09 * boily just got a mental ankle sprain
12:15:12 <oerjan> boily: eLuCiDating, isn't it
12:15:19 <oerjan> wait that was a C not an S
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12:26:31 <HackEgo> cake/The Enrichment Center is required to remind you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake.
12:26:46 <mroman> fungot: You a cake too?
12:26:46 <fungot> mroman: do you understand what your code do.
12:26:56 <fungot> mroman: " exciting" might be potentially confusing to be useful. i intend to run one of the original
12:27:07 <boily> oerjan: maybe it's lussidating?
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12:57:07 <HackEgo> Cubes come in all sizes, colors and materials, but only one shape.
13:22:46 <HackEgo> Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
13:23:12 <mroman> Shape describe the shapes of things.
13:23:20 <mroman> fungot: Are you in shape?
13:23:21 <fungot> mroman: ok thx... now about what messages are in terms of actually programming guis.)
13:23:33 <fungot> mroman: although extra level of indirection. kawa compiles to fnord sisc, but i'm not
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14:28:59 <b_jonas> http://hurrdurr.org is now just a redirect to http://kernel.org rather than serving a modified version of the site
14:30:19 <FireFly> how did it modify it before?
14:35:42 <b_jonas> FireFly: had the title The Hurr Durr archives instead of The Kernel archives. it started out as an april's fool joke on 2015-04-01 when even kernel.org showed up that way for half a day, but later it remained only on http://hurrdurr.org with a content not often refreshed.
14:39:26 <b_jonas> FireFly: http://archive.is/hPuNF
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15:20:54 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
15:21:03 <FireFly> I forgot the number.. oh well
15:22:58 <FireFly> I don't want to re-olist or I bet people would complain
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18:37:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TrumpScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46220&oldid=46214 * 85.179.166.12 * (+17)
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22:47:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Call/cc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46221 * Hppavilion1 * (+965) Created Page
22:55:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Surreal FOREVER loop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46222 * Hppavilion1 * (+1169) Created Page
22:56:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Surreal FOREVER loop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46223&oldid=46222 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Fixed a ling
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22:58:37 <lambdabot> CYUL 182254Z 25018G27KT 12SM -SN DRSN SCT030 BKN050 OVC075 M12/M16 A2971 RMK SC3SC3AC2 SLP066
22:58:57 <boily> G27 and DRSN. and there was much rejoicing.
23:01:13 <int-e> drifting snow... ah, there, gusts of wind. nice!
23:01:17 <lambdabot> LOWI 182250Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 NCD M12/M13 Q1016
23:01:55 <lambdabot> EGLL 182250Z AUTO 05003KT 9999 NCD M01/M04 Q1015
23:02:03 <fizzie> Oh no, negative degrees!
23:02:45 <fizzie> It's supposed to go away again before the end of the week.
23:02:54 <fizzie> Forecast for Saturday was 12, I think.
23:03:13 <boily> I like my shovel. my shovel is my friend.
23:03:16 <lambdabot> EGBB 182250Z VRB02KT CAVOK M00/M00 Q1014
23:03:22 <ais523> (I think I remembered that correctly?)
23:04:15 <ais523> that's a very short METAR
23:04:41 <boily> his523. moooooooooo.
23:05:55 <int-e> Oh, CAVOK is obscure. "Ceiling and Visibility are OK"
23:08:20 <lambdabot> LOWW 182250Z 20003KT 180V240 9999 BKN040 M07/M09 Q1019 R11/15//95 R16/19//95 NOSIG
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23:08:59 <lambdabot> uptime: 11d 3h 30m 25s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
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23:11:32 <boily> is that lambdie's uptime?
23:11:34 <lambdabot> uptime: 11d 3h 33m, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
23:15:04 <int-e> it's more a measure of Freenode's stability than lambdabot's
23:15:58 <boily> fungot: are you stable?
23:15:59 <fungot> boily: because the us is more productive/ efficient for the community wiki database file works fine on my debian box
23:16:13 <boily> fungot debian boxes, so it is stable.
23:16:13 <fungot> boily: i'm writing a essay, of which information does not belong to that class
23:17:06 <int-e> fungot: it's good to keep an essay free of distractions like facts; keep it to the essentials
23:17:06 <fungot> int-e: that would be a little more specific? what does that expression evaluate to when l is empty.
23:17:30 <int-e> fungot: bottom, as a first approximation
23:17:31 <fungot> int-e: i don't look into any alternatives, we've got a *lot* of experience with s48/ scsh unfortunatly doesn't have source location, but it's stated in such an intrinsic way, i can
23:18:05 <int-e> fungot: you should read up about Böhm trees
23:18:05 <fungot> int-e: because threads don't print exceptions because they don't know how nscolor redcolor is implemented, so you don't need
23:20:18 <int-e> hmm... color-blind exceptions... something to dream of tonight
23:24:45 <fizzie> fungot's current uptime is somewhere around 27 days.
23:24:45 <fungot> fizzie: how does that work in drscheme? or maybe i misunderstood your original remarks about posix.......
23:24:54 <fizzie> Which is pretty long for it.
23:26:40 <ais523> well, esolangs are often good in terms of uptime because they run on a very limited VM
23:26:52 <ais523> which means that they tend to be secure, assuming that the VM was written in an even approximately sane way (sometimes it isn't)
23:27:16 <ais523> like, I can imagine there are some BF implementations where < at the start of the tape just goes and points at random memory in the bss segment
23:27:28 <fizzie> Yes, but fungot doesn't have any reconnection capabilities, and it tends to get "read failed" from the server every so often.
23:27:28 <fungot> fizzie: the fact is that he says kela might not accept that!)) in scheme are scheme implementations with ( good).
23:28:24 <ais523> fizzie: wouldn't a reconnection still violate uptime issues?
23:28:39 <fizzie> Mmaybe. It depends on what it's measuring.
23:29:06 <fizzie> Also, Kela is the national social insurance organization of Finland, I wonder what they're not accepting.
23:35:51 <fungot> FireFly: the macro expander, 2) i can formulate it as a parameter
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23:43:59 <J_Arcane> Heh. Has some other Finn been filling fungot's head with weirdness?
23:44:00 <fungot> J_Arcane: they wanted to unite to one country in the map
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23:52:48 <fizzie> fungot: I thought Finland already was one country.
23:52:48 <fungot> fizzie: sicp relies on fewer bizarre, non-standard bells whistles; there is not guarantee of a merge option either
23:53:31 <fizzie> Some of the irc style is from my logs of IRCnet's #douglasadams, which was mostly Finns. (Now it's just dead.)
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00:24:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Al Dente]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46224&oldid=42774 * 50.161.94.113 * (+145)
00:26:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Al Dente]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46225&oldid=46224 * 50.161.94.113 * (+23)
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00:37:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Al Dente]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46226&oldid=46225 * 50.161.94.113 * (+200)
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00:42:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Al Dente]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46227&oldid=42356 * 50.161.94.113 * (+1) BNF doesn't support the repetition operator, but EBNF does.
00:47:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Al Dente examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46228&oldid=41776 * 50.161.94.113 * (+448) Addition? Sounds good.
00:50:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LexiciScriptor * New user account
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01:12:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46229&oldid=41016 * 50.161.94.113 * (+98) /* Someone should change the featured language. */ new section
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01:17:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minebit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46230&oldid=46162 * 50.161.94.113 * (+42) Adding categories cuz why not.
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01:38:16 <ais523> hmm, so I'm reading about the debate about what the archipelago which includes Great Britain, Ireland, and a number of smaller islands shoud be called
01:38:49 <ais523> the Wikipedia article mentions that using the Roman term would be inappropriate because it also includes various other places, such as "Thule"
01:39:10 <ais523> reading about Thule, though, implies that it's a historical name for some landmass in the northwest of Europe but nobody's quite sure which one
01:39:41 <ais523> (apparently the leading theory is that was a misidentification of Norway as an island)
01:40:26 <ais523> this seems to be verging into the field of esogeography
01:40:34 <ais523> which I'm sure is something that hppavilion[1] will invent given enough time
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01:42:47 <ais523> apparently even in the historical record, there was a lot of scepticism about exactly where Thule was; the geography of northern Europe wasn't well understood in those days
01:45:36 <ais523> hmm, the obvious theory here is that everyone who attempted to go there ended up somewhere different from each other, and that's what causes the contradictory evidence
01:45:59 <ais523> and "various places in northwest europe, north of great britain" ended up being mistakenly merged into one general geographical concept
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01:58:57 <zzo38> I am writing the document "Magic: the Puzzling: Codex" anyone who works with the puzzling should mention anything that needs to be mentioned in case I forget, so that I will not make a mistake.
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02:18:50 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: create a GUI where the entire image displayed has to be an analytic function.
02:19:17 <tswett> Now, you probably don't know what an analytic function is. Lemme give a terse intuitive explanation.
02:20:24 <tswett> Most everyday mathematical functions are analytic: addition, multiplication, exponentiation, trigonometric functions, logarithms, radicals and whatnot...
02:21:46 <tswett> Analytic functions have a cool property: given just one little piece of an analytic function (say, the sine function from 0.037 to 0.038), you can, theoretically, figure out the entire function... or, well, at least a lot of it.
02:22:02 <tswett> Piecewise functions, however, are, in general, not analytic.
02:22:10 <tswett> You can almost think of "analytic" as meaning "not piecewise"!
02:22:28 <tswett> Though that's not particularly accurate.
02:23:06 <tswett> So, people who program for this GUI wouldn't be able to say "I want this to be black for x < 50 and white for x > 50". That's a piecewise function; you can't do that.
02:24:15 <tswett> You'd have to somehow build it out of multiplication and so forth.
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02:51:57 <ais523> tswett: wouldn't you just use a very large polynomial, fitted independently to each pixel?
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03:00:04 <zzo38> I have read somewhere else, someone figured that it is possible to win with Hedron Alignment without ever passing through any end step or cleanup step.
03:04:23 <ais523> zzo38: yes, IIRC it requires using Karn's ultimate on turn 1
03:04:56 <ais523> which requires you to have a starting hand that can produce 7 mana on turn 1 (more, in fact, because you have to play other cards); this isn't impossible but it does require a huge amount of luck
03:06:01 <zzo38> Yes I know you need to be good luck, but I would think that you can assume that you have good luck, if attempting to figure out such a puzzle
03:07:27 <ais523> but in that case you can probably meet any of the alternate win conditions without going through a cleanup step
03:08:00 <ais523> and the only reason you need to ultimate Karn is if they trigger right at the start of the upkeep before you can do anything (this is true of most but not all alternate win conditions)
03:08:21 <zzo38> This card does require upkeep though
03:09:01 <ais523> actually if you use Un-cards you can probably do it without Karn, using Topsy Turvy
03:09:09 <ais523> although I'm not quite sure what happens to the current turn when you play it
03:09:39 <zzo38> Neither am I; the Un-cards don't have any proper rule support
03:12:13 <zzo38> (For example, many people argue about R&D's Secret Lair; I would think that if used together with an old Lightning Bolt card then you are allowed to damage all nontoken creatures/planeswalkers at once, but there is no proper rule support for such thing therefore I think it cannot be called either right or wrong)
03:13:10 <ais523> zzo38: do you think R&D's Secret Lair prevents Wastes generating mana
03:13:36 <ais523> AFAICT the only consistent way to interpret the reason that Wastes generates mana is that it was errata'd upon release
03:13:49 <zzo38> I would say yes itdoes
03:13:50 <ais523> because there is no rules text for it on the card, nor in the rules, its rules text is only on Oracle
03:14:33 <zzo38> It also makes Portal basic lands to generate no mana
03:15:19 <zzo38> But the newer textless lands (which are now common) do generate mana
03:17:44 <ais523> textless basic lands would generate mana because of their basic land subtypes
03:17:57 <ais523> also this makes textless dual-subtype lands better, beacuse they lose their drawbacks
03:18:28 <zzo38> Yes that is why I say they do generate mana
03:20:03 <zzo38> And under the influence of R&D's Secret Lair, the Island from Fifth Edition still generates blue mana and is named "Island" but is not basic and is not an Island.
03:23:33 <zzo38> While I have seen many comments mentioning people will use it and target lands or cards in graveyard or whatever (which I would still consider legal, but nothing happens if you do), nobody has mentioned the "damage everything" effect I have mentioned, as far as I can tell.
03:23:47 <zzo38> But what do you think it is?
03:24:39 <ais523> lands with "{T}: Add {U} to your mana pool" but aren't Islands are actually considered quite valuable in some formats, because they make the deck more resistant to cards like Choke
03:24:56 <ais523> also what's the wording of the version of Lightning Bolt in question?
03:25:20 <ais523> "Lightning Bolt does 3 damage to any target", right?
03:25:42 <ais523> I don't think "each creature" is a valid target under the rules; at least, there's no card that attempts to target it
03:26:00 <ais523> you could arguably target a battlefield but that wouldn't do anything, battlefields can't take damage
03:26:02 <zzo38> I agree that isn't a valid target, but the battlefield is a valid target.
03:26:12 <ais523> (note that R&D's Secret Lair doesn't change the rules, just the cards)
03:26:51 <zzo38> (Tokens will not be damaged in this case)
03:27:24 <ais523> what does that rule say? I don't have a copy of the rules handy
03:28:04 <zzo38> An action that is performed on a zone is performed on all cards in that zone.
03:28:40 <zzo38> (For example, "shuffle your hand into your library" mean you must shuffle all cards in your hand into your library)
03:29:12 <ais523> so in that case the only remaining problem is if the battlefield is a legal target
03:29:16 <ais523> the main problem is that there's only one of it
03:29:27 <ais523> meaning that a card would never say "target battlefield", it'd just say "the battlefield"
03:30:05 <zzo38> Yes, although what they would and would not print seems irrelevant
03:30:38 <ais523> not really, I interpret "any target" as meaning "anything that could be targeted", so it rather depends on whether the battlefield could be targeted, by any hypothetical card
03:30:41 <ais523> and I feel that it couldn't be
03:30:58 <zzo38> I think it can be. The rules say zones can be targeted.
03:32:20 <ais523> there is only one card that targets a zone
03:32:45 <zzo38> "Any hypothetical card" can include even cards that they will never actually print, I believe
03:34:22 <zzo38> Anyways "target battlefield" does in fact have a different effect than "the battlefield" in some cases. For example "Put a token copy of target creature onto target battlefield. Draw a card." will cause you to draw a card even if the target creature is invalid because it still has some valid targets
03:34:43 <zzo38> And spells that can retarget only spells that have a single target, won't affect it
03:35:07 <ais523> so is it possible to give the battlefield protection? or hexproof?
03:35:12 <ais523> (using R&D's secret lair)
03:35:40 <zzo38> As far as I know, zones cannot have abilities, nor does any card give "any target" protection or hexproof
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03:36:22 <zzo38> If something gave the zone the ability though, it instead gives all cards in that zone the ability anyways if zones cannot have abilities
03:40:40 <zzo38> The "Magic: the Puzzling: Codex" (incomplete) is at: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/codex.doc You may review what I have so far if you wish, although I am still editing it (live; the server is my own computer).
03:41:32 <ais523> not used to seeing .doc on websites
03:42:35 <\oren\> uh, isn't .doc always ms word?
03:43:12 <zzo38> In Windows it usually is
03:43:29 <ais523> sometimes it's used to mean "documentation" rather than "document", and even "document" is a very general term
03:43:42 <zzo38> But it can also be a plain text file, which in this case it is (having .DOC for plain text is a bit common in DOS, and sometimes others too)
03:45:21 <zzo38> But ".docx" is always Microsoft Word, I think
03:46:16 <ais523> .docx is the extension used for OOXML, which Microsoft wanted word processors other than Word to use (or claimed to)
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03:48:36 <ais523> zzo38: I think [8.1] should be clarified, as written it seems to contradict [8], and there's no obvious reason why Commander would be relevant there; also [8.1.1] should probably exclude the possibility of cards that can be played from a library while not searching it
03:48:57 <ais523> ah wait, [8.1.2] clarifies that bit
03:52:19 <zzo38> I clarified those rules a bit as to why Commander is relevant and that [8] has the exceptions listed below is mentioned explicitly now in rule [8]
03:54:04 <ais523> wait, don't Commander games have either no or infinitely large sideboards? where does the number of 10 come from?
03:54:42 <ais523> I know there's a combo in Commander where you use an activated ability that costs {20} and lets you get any number of Eldrazi cards from outside the game
03:54:52 <ais523> then you shuffle them into your library and use them to win with Battle of Wits
03:57:12 <zzo38> The Comprehensive Rules don't say so, although it says so in the other official Commander rules document
03:58:10 <tswett> What's the card that targets a zone?
03:58:12 <zzo38> They ought to add it to the Comprehensive Rules though, it would seem to me
03:58:23 <ais523> tswett: Circu, Dimir Lobotomist
03:58:36 <ais523> the only reason it targets a zone is that targeting the player who owns the zone (which is the usual template) didn't fit on the card
03:59:33 <tswett> Like... if they wanted to make it say "target player's library", that would have made the text too long?
03:59:38 <zzo38> But I think it can now mean that it can be use even if that player is protected?
04:01:22 <tswett> Hmmm. If you can target the battlefield with Lightning Bolt (in its version that says "any target"), presumably you could also target, say, a library.
04:01:28 <tswett> And so it would deal 3 damage to every card in that library.
04:01:34 <tswett> Which would, of course, ultimately have no effect.
04:01:48 <tswett> Do the rules actually permit dealing damage to something that isn't a permanent?
04:02:09 <tswett> Isn't a permanent or player, rather?
04:02:09 <ais523> you can damage a player
04:02:36 <ais523> hmm, you can certainly try to damage a creature and have it not be a creature by the time the effect resolves, in which case nothing happens
04:02:51 <ais523> I'd imagine damaging a creature cards in a library likewise has nothing happen
04:04:24 <tswett> I feel another stupid card idea coming on.
04:05:13 <ais523> something lke "search target player's library for any number of creature cards with toughness 2 or less, and place them in that player's graveyard"?
04:05:22 * \oren\ just fount out that "Youtube Red" is *not* google's move to dominate the porn industry.
04:06:02 <pikhq> \oren\: Yeaaah, it's a weird name IMO.
04:06:30 <tswett> Sorcery. You become a creature token with "This creature's power and toughness are each equal to your life total. If this creature would leave the battlefield, you cease to be an object instead."
04:06:55 <ais523> tswett: surely you also need a "place yourself onto the battlefield"
04:07:03 <ais523> also that reminds me a ton of Form of the Squirrel
04:07:20 <ais523> it interacts quite badly with Humility, though
04:07:40 <tswett> I guess "creature token" doesn't imply being on the battlefield the way that "creature" does.
04:08:22 <\oren\> it's such a misleading name that I assumed it was a premium porn thing and moved on without looking into it
04:08:42 <ais523> tswett: so what happens if someone gains control of the token? do they gain control of you in the same sense as Worst Fears?
04:08:51 <ais523> also, can they make you attack yourself?
04:09:39 <tswett> That's a good question. Controlling a player and controlling an object work differently.
04:10:42 <tswett> Then again, I think Magic has an ontology in which each entity has only one set of qualities, rather than a set of qualities for each sort of thing that it is.
04:11:31 <zzo38> My custom cards include rules to unify controlling players and controlling objects, although these custom card rules do not allow to put yourself into a field
04:11:34 <tswett> If X is a foo, and X is a bar, and foos have bazness, and bars also have bazness, then X doesn't have a separate bazness-as-a-foo and bazness-as-a-bar; it just has the one bazness.
04:11:37 <ais523> there's already a ton of rulings about Gideon blocking attacks on himself when a creature planeswalker
04:11:57 <ais523> (nearly always he gets some sort of damage prevention in order to make things less confusing)
04:13:24 <tswett> Actually, I think for the most part, Magic has a partitioning ontology: there are various classes, and each "thing in the game" falls into exactly one of those classes.
04:13:31 <tswett> It's just that one of those classes, "object", is really broad.
04:14:06 <zzo38> The rulings for Gideon blocking do match what I would expect and how I thought it worked anyways, due to reading the comprehensive rules and see no rules that specify it would work any differently to how I thought which is same as what it says on Gatherer rulings
04:14:10 <tswett> With that ontology, it's simply not possible for a player to be a token.
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04:16:43 <tswett> Anyway. I sleep night all.
04:26:36 <haavard> What if you create a 1/1 colorless Player token.
04:27:57 <haavard> There's something in the comp. rules stating you can't have tokens that are not one of the listed existing types, isn't there
04:28:34 <haavard> I know there's one when you have to name a creature type and such, you can't name "Fizziwonkle" because it's not an existing type
04:57:32 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: it can be read by anyone on the physical connection between the source and destination
04:57:51 <ais523> this includes the ISP and most governments; however, if you're using a wired connection, it's not likely to include most other people
04:58:06 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: What would be the good way to do it? I'm transmitting (unique, non-reused) passwords
04:58:36 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: to be honest those nearly always get sent over insecure connections anyway (e.g. email), and it's rarely a problem
04:58:54 <ais523> if they need to be secure, though, SSL would probably be best
04:59:03 <ais523> wrt security, use something widely used and well tested
04:59:07 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: It also needs to be fast (fast enough for a real-time game)
04:59:08 <ais523> otherwise it'll almost certainly be wrong
04:59:45 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Does that mean I need to jump through hoops and SSL only the passwords, or would SSL be fast enough?
05:03:21 <haavard> Don't optimise prematurely is a good saying
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06:03:00 <izabera> stupid question: if something used to take 10s and now it only takes 2s, is that a 500% speedup?
06:04:14 <ais523> only 400% surely? or 80% depending on what you measure relative to
06:06:29 <izabera> but mu question was exactly that
06:07:21 <ais523> I'm leaning towards the 80 but am not sure why, there doesn't seem to be a logical reason to pick it
06:07:33 <ais523> I guess it's 400% faster, but the time is 80% smaller
06:09:49 <izabera> would it be clearer if i write "it now takes only a fifth of the time" ?
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06:47:35 <hppavilion[1]> haavard: Yes, but I was worried SSL might be orders of magnitude slower than is needed
06:49:56 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: that should have been pallindromemordnillap
06:50:44 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: nag a ram is also a much better name for anagram
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08:20:12 <J_Arcane> https://github.com/samshadwell/TrumpScript
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08:47:58 <oerjan> shachaf: ah so that was what roy meant.
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10:50:05 <mroman> pff "they don't have a financial adviser"..
10:50:16 <mroman> you don't need a financial adviser if you win Mio. of $
10:51:09 <mroman> you split it up and distribute it to different banks
10:51:26 <mroman> that's probably not the best thing in terms of interest rates
10:51:37 <mroman> but it should be decently safe so you don't go broke
10:51:42 <mroman> and you don't need a financial adviser for that.
10:52:35 <mroman> > 350000000 * (0.25 / 100)
10:53:34 <mroman> that's 875k $ with 0.25% interest rates
10:54:21 <mroman> one year of interest rates gives you as much money as working ten years
10:54:23 <oerjan> what you don't realize is that your swiss genes make you biased hth
10:54:47 <oerjan> basically, you're already a natural financial advisor hth
10:56:33 <mroman> well the problem is that taxes for 350'000'000 are huge :D
10:56:59 <mroman> it's like 2.5 Mio. in Tax per year with that kind of money
10:57:24 <mroman> roughly 2 Mio. tax per years
10:57:37 <mroman> (the interest rates aren't enough to cover all the taxes)
10:58:12 <mroman> if you live with one million a year
10:58:31 <mroman> you should have enough mone for at least a hundred years
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11:00:21 <mroman> funnily it doesn't really matter how much money you have
11:00:32 <mroman> sooner or later you'll loose everything to taxes :D
11:00:39 <mroman> like 8% a year goes to taxes
11:01:27 <mroman> you'd need 8% in interest rates to cover the taxes
11:01:33 <mroman> but that probably then counts as income
11:01:36 <mroman> and income is taxed too
11:01:44 <mroman> you ain't getting rich on interest rates
11:04:15 <mroman> if you plan on getting rich THEN you need a financial adviser
11:04:45 <mroman> if you just plan to live off the money then you just put it into an account
11:15:27 <izabera> i've got an openbsd account on unixssh.com
11:15:42 <izabera> they even gave me a subdomain for free
11:16:17 <izabera> free vps that i don't even need <.<
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11:40:56 <mroman> http://codepad.org/jHElmzhQ
11:41:06 <mroman> that doesn't look right @unixssh account creation
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12:11:35 <fizzie> It said "OK" right there, I'm sure it's fine.
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12:26:13 <mroman> you can't advertise unhealthy stuff to kids but to adults it's fine
12:26:53 <mroman> financially it's better if adults die younger
12:27:02 <myname> because adults need to be able to make adult(tm) decissions
12:31:10 <mroman> I don't know shit about what substances are dangerous to me
12:31:22 <mroman> and some substances probably don't even need to be declared on the product
12:32:02 <mroman> everybody who argues that "an adult should be able to make an informed decision" assumes that those adults manage to track papers, discoveries, know about substance interactions and whatever the fuck there is to know.
12:32:22 <mroman> and that assumption is horribly wrong.
12:32:59 <mroman> People do all kinds of wrong assumptions all the time.
12:33:39 <mroman> like the whole plastic bag debate
12:33:43 <mroman> it's so incredibly stupid.
12:34:18 <mroman> It's like "nooo people can't function without those plastic bag at grocerie stores we can't forbid them"
12:34:40 <mroman> what most likely happens is that people just buy a reusable bag once and then take it with them all the time.
12:35:56 <mroman> or forcing young adults to do extra courses on "how not to take drugs and drive a car while on drug"
12:36:51 <mroman> If you have the assumption that you can prevent every accident by forcing people to visit more courses then you're a moron.
12:37:12 <mroman> also sexual assault courses for immigrants...
12:37:22 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> (For example, many people argue about R&D's Secret Lair; I would think that if used
12:37:25 <b_jonas> zzo38> (For example, many people argue about R&D's Secret Lair; I would think that if used
12:37:55 <mroman> I'm very certain these guys in Köln knew what they're doign so I don't get where people get this assumption "they didn't know better, let's force them to visit courses and we'll teach them"
12:38:18 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> (For example, many people argue about R&D's Secret Lair; I would think that if used together with an old Lightning Bolt card then you are allowed to damage all nontoken creatures/planeswalkers at once," -- huh, how does that work?
12:39:20 <b_jonas> "<ais523> AFAICT the only consistent way to interpret the reason that Wastes generates mana is that it was errata'd upon release" -- yes, http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/oath-gatewatch-release-notes-2016-01-13 basically says that
12:40:23 <mroman> also these additional pre-driving courses are highly inefficient. You could just expand the theoretical exam to include material you'd cover in these courses and students ultimatevily have to learn that material to pass the exam.
12:41:01 <mroman> It wouldn't cost serious bucks and wouldn't waste too much time for people with common sense.
12:41:48 <b_jonas> ah, you say target the battlefield. crazy idea.
12:42:21 <mroman> It's like 250 bucks of 4 evening of getting told the average adult already knows anyway.
12:42:33 <b_jonas> ais523: but it is printed "to one target", not "to any target".
12:46:11 <b_jonas> "<ais523> also [8.1.1] should probably exclude the possibility of cards that can be played from a library while not searching it" -- um, are you thinking of 1996 World Champion, or of YAÆV?
12:49:33 <b_jonas> "<tswett> Then again, I think Magic has an ontology in which each entity has only one set of qualities, rather than a set of qualities for each sort of thing that it is."" -- objects (which are basically the manifestation of a card or other thing in a zone between when it's placed there and leaves) definitely have different properties from the base card (or other thing, eg. base token as it was created)
12:53:01 <b_jonas> mroman: um, I don't think it works like that. they made a pretty big deal about advertising cigarettes and other tobacco products like a decade ago, and so cigarette ads are practically nonexistant here, as are cigarette vending machines.
12:53:46 <b_jonas> that's been true for so long here that I was actually very surprised once when seeing cigarette ads in a foreign country.
12:54:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: is this Codex thing tries to be something like the chess puzzles codex?
12:57:39 <b_jonas> I hope you at least don't try to deliberately set up some paradoxes or quasi-paradoxes with strange definitions in the codex. Let me see.
12:59:31 <b_jonas> (You don't need to either, the rules of M:tG, especially the infinite rules, have more paradoxical definitions than the chess guys ever came up with.)
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13:16:26 <mroman> b_jonas: What do you mean?
13:17:16 <mroman> I think around here the rules are: No tobacco ads on TV
13:17:20 <mroman> but on the streets it's fine
13:18:15 <b_jonas> mroman: there are none on the streets here either.
13:19:01 <b_jonas> they aren't even allowed in the Formula-1 car race anymore, which was something of a big deal because a certain cigarette company used to be a big sponsor (I think this was wider in Europe, not only here)
13:19:29 <mroman> but what "doesn't work that way"?
13:20:12 <b_jonas> mroman: you said "you can't advertise unhealthy stuff to kids but to adults it's fine" -- but you can't. there are rules about what you can advertise to adults too, at least about tobacco and some other things.
13:26:22 <mroman> There are regulations for ads targeting adults as well.
13:27:05 <b_jonas> Sure, but specifically about ads for unhealthy products like cigarettes.
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13:33:25 <mroman> I think all alcoholic beverages should have a "carcinogenic" warning label
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13:35:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: in the codex http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/codex.doc , near rule 4.1 you might have to mention restarting the game (as in Karn Liberated)
13:39:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: does rules 8.1.1 basically try to say that the opponent's library could contains something as broken as a debugging card with like "{0}: A player of your choice loses the game. You may play this ability from the battlefield, your hand, or the graveyard."
13:39:41 <b_jonas> s/the graveyard/a graveyard/
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14:45:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pyth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46231&oldid=44538 * 84.17.219.63 * (-13) Fixed broken links to documentation and repository
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14:47:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46232&oldid=46194 * Ennullizer * (+41) /* Implementation */
14:49:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46233&oldid=46232 * Ennullizer * (+62) /* Implementation */
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14:49:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ennullizer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46234&oldid=46195 * Ennullizer * (-256) /* Hq9eFuck */
14:49:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46235&oldid=46233 * Ennullizer * (+2) /* Implementation */
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16:41:43 <b_jonas> I can't get over this drawing style in Questionable Comics. Is that even Hannelore? How did she grow so much hair?
16:42:06 <zzo38> b_jonas: It is meant to be like chess puzzles codex, yes
16:43:22 <zzo38> I will add your suggestion about restarting the game
16:43:34 <b_jonas> She's not wearing her usual bright blue shirt and shorts, which makes her even more difficult to identify, especially for me who don't look at eye color much. But the dialog and the ear piercings give her away.
16:45:34 <int-e> different hair style, different eye-brows
16:46:15 <int-e> and you can see quite a bit of time passing in the previous comic anyway...
16:46:23 <fizzie> b_jonas: It looked weird to me too, but I just assumed from the hair color.
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16:58:41 <b_jonas> M:tG trivia questions. When can it matter that your creature has deathtouch even if no creatures attack or block? When can it matter that your creature has reach, if there are no creatures with flying around?
16:59:03 <b_jonas> There may be some wildcard answers that work with many abilities, but try to find an answer in each case that works for that ability but not for trample instead.
17:00:23 <b_jonas> Also, when can it matter that your creature has banding if that's the only creature you have on the battlefield and you have no teammates? (This one is slightly different from the first two.)
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17:04:31 <FireFly> I guess there might be cards that do something for each creature you have in play with reach or so, but I wouldn't know
17:05:56 <b_jonas> FireFly: do you mean like Hurricane or Earthquake (the normal one, not the portal three kingdoms one)?
17:06:55 <b_jonas> I don't think there's something like that for reach, but maybe there's a card that cares about reach in some other way? Hint, hint.
17:10:32 <b_jonas> FireFly: when did you play magic the most? as in, you're familiar with cards from what blocks the most?
17:11:10 <FireFly> ~5 years ago, for maybe half a year very casually :P
17:11:19 <b_jonas> For me, it's mostly around tenth edition and Lorwyn
17:11:40 <b_jonas> 5 years ago, that's... let me check the timeline, Alara?
17:12:31 <FireFly> The M11 logo looks familiar
17:12:33 <b_jonas> with all those nice black spells
17:13:12 <FireFly> well, I guess it could've been either of M10/M11
17:16:18 <b_jonas> (I mean Disfigure, Deathmark, Duress, Disentomb. The four dees for B.)
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00:44:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46236&oldid=45335 * Hppavilion1 * (+253) /* Copyright Violation */ new section
00:46:49 * oerjan prepares to swat hppavilion[1] if he doesn't sign pronto
00:47:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46237&oldid=46236 * Hppavilion1 * (+95) /* Copyright Violation */
00:47:57 <shachaf> oerjan: hppavilion[1] is not prone to signing hth
00:48:26 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm afraid of what has accumulated in the wiki talk pages since i gave up catching up...
00:48:38 <ais523> oerjan: opinions on hppavilion[1]'s actual post?
00:48:49 <ais523> he is right, the esme program does appear to contain a copyright notice
00:48:53 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I have no idea why MediaWiki doesn't just automatically append the siggy if ~~~~ doesn't appear in the message
00:48:59 <ais523> although given how random esme is, that might be part of the syntax rather than a comment
00:49:18 <ais523> ah, "Anything beginning with a | can contain anything and is a comment."
00:50:12 <Taneb> Earlier I tried to get a MediaWiki wiki running off my nixos PC
00:50:55 <Taneb> But did not reach much success
00:52:18 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: because mediawiki does not distinguish talk page edits from any other. besides, not _all_ talk page edits are new messages.
00:53:17 <oerjan> wikipedia used to have a bot for adding signatures, although lately i've seen some missing them...
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00:53:37 <ais523> I haven't seen SineBot around for a while actually
00:54:22 <ais523> hmm, esolang idea: an esolang where all programs must be copyrighted, thus you can't put any examples on the wiki
00:54:44 <shachaf> Programs are automatically copyrighted anyway.
00:54:58 <ais523> shachaf: yes but you can decopyright them (in many countries, anyway)
00:55:08 <oerjan> ais523: you know, technically a copyright notice doesn't contradict CC-0, does it? >:)
00:55:19 <shachaf> I doubt that most examples on the wiki are decopyrighted.
00:55:22 <ais523> oerjan: well CC0 has two halves
00:55:23 <shachaf> They're just licensed or something.
00:55:26 <oerjan> it doesn't say "all rights reserved"
00:55:26 <ais523> it contradicts the first half but not the second
00:55:34 <hppavilion[1]> Is the standard copyright notice copyrighted, I wonder?
00:55:51 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's too short to be copyright hth
00:55:53 <shachaf> I'd rather have an esolang where writing any program in it involves violating a patent.
00:56:02 <ais523> here's the actual license: http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/legalcode
00:56:37 <shachaf> I guess it's easy enough to get US software patents to make that doable.
00:56:41 <ais523> hmm, it doesn't seem to be actually contradictory with a copyright notice
00:57:16 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it cannot be trademarked if it's not used for commerce, can it
00:57:35 <hppavilion[1]> For the record, I'm just in this for my crusade against copywritten programs
00:58:27 <hppavilion[1]> I don't want future children growing up in a society where everything is proprietary- even stupid programs in stupid languages
00:59:40 <shachaf> Copywritten programs? Are those programs used in advertisements?
01:00:47 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I don't really know how to spell ~"Copywritten"~
01:04:19 <ais523> someone needs to copywrite that "copywritten" :-P
01:06:07 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I'm the antichopyrist and I approve of this message
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01:28:06 <\oren\> by analogy with light -> lit, copyright -> copyrit.
01:29:42 <shachaf> fight -> fought, copyright -> copyrought
01:31:49 <\oren\> yah, give it a 'ough' to prove how evil it is
01:31:54 <oerjan> flight -> flown, copyright -> copyrown hth
01:32:47 <Phantom_Hoover> sadly the second ring was destroyed as part of the settlement of Sauron vs. The Free Peoples
01:33:01 <\oren\> i copyright, i copywrought, i have copywrown
01:33:37 * oerjan hits \oren\ with the saucepan of writeous grammar ===\__/
01:34:31 <oerjan> or wait, that's correct SORRY
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01:49:00 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a programming language called GM (working name, ftr)
01:49:39 <hppavilion[1]> But I'm wondering if I should add some Gouda-like features to GM.
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01:50:04 <hppavilion[1]> Gouda is based off Mascarpone, I should mention. At least, the idea of reifying/deifying interpreters (pushing them/popping them, using them as data)
01:53:35 <hppavilion[1]> I could, if it would work, entirely merge them. And it makes /some/ sense: GM is heavily mathematical, and what's more mathy in programming than self-modifying code?
01:55:06 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> These are both semi-serious languages <-- i dunno, the latter sound cheesy to me
01:55:52 <oerjan> i had my suspicions already.
01:58:19 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, if you're around, can you explain why when americans hear canadians say 'about' and south africans say 'fuck' they render this as 'aboot' and 'fook' respectively, despite the fact that they're clearly 'aboat' and 'fock' and don't sound anything like 'oo'?
01:58:40 <Phantom_Hoover> like it's so egregious that i have to wonder if it's a peculiarity to how americans say or hear 'oo'
01:59:07 <oerjan> yoo wooldn't onderstand
02:00:15 <\oren\> i guess they don't pay attention to the uh before the oo part?
02:05:12 <\oren\> like it's a /ʌu/ vowel sequence, but they percieve it as just being /u:/
02:06:13 <\oren\> aboat would be /o/ wouldn't it?
02:07:15 <\oren\> no thay say somehting like /ʌbæut/ to my ear
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02:08:05 <Phantom_Hoover> there's an article by an actual linguist about it here http://dialectblog.com/2011/03/20/canadian-raising-nobody-says-aboot/
02:08:23 <Phantom_Hoover> but it doesn't cover the similarly wrong 'fook' (as in the meme from district 9)
02:10:42 <Phantom_Hoover> \oren\, fwiw wiktionary's standard pronunciations of 'boat' don't have /o/ as the vowel
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02:20:52 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: i dont really know, actually
02:21:43 <augur> it might have to do with some kind of perceptual repulsion
02:22:16 <Phantom_Hoover> like i don't know of any accent which would pronounce 'fuck' as 'fook'
02:22:33 <augur> like, if you expect X but the sound produced is Y, you perceive it as whatever is furthest in the Y-X direction
02:23:16 <augur> about in AmEn uses the diphthon [æʊ] at least in my dialect
02:23:49 <Phantom_Hoover> i had to stare at my lips in a mirror for a while to convince myself that i was actually saying a diphthong
02:24:00 <augur> if CanEn is [ʌʊ] or [əʊ] then the direction from [æʊ] to either of those is up and to the right
02:24:15 <augur> and the most extreme vowel in that direction is english [u:]
02:24:28 <deltab> it's like caricature: focusing on the differences and exaggerating them
02:25:09 <augur> keep in mind tho also that [ʌʊ] and [əʊ] dont exist in AmEn, so AmEn ears have to put those into some box or other, and they cant put them in the [æʊ] box
02:25:47 <augur> so it has to be some other box up and to the right of [æʊ]
02:26:29 <augur> but also Phantom_Hoover, we cant discount the possible effect also of cultural depictions of canadians as saying [u:] as well. we'd need to find someone whos kind of oblivious and see what their perception is
02:27:07 <Phantom_Hoover> well yeah, the blogpost i linked theorises that it's an extinct pronunciation that's lived on in pop culture
02:27:08 <deltab> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brummie
02:28:07 <Phantom_Hoover> but that doesn't work for 'fook' because afaik it started with district 9 in 2009
02:28:09 <augur> whats the actual sequence anyway, Phantom_Hoover? i think i misread part of the convo :)
02:28:34 <Phantom_Hoover> uh, the article is http://dialectblog.com/2011/03/20/canadian-raising-nobody-says-aboot/
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02:29:04 <Phantom_Hoover> and the 'fook' thing is because there's this meme that the south african characters in district 9 say 'fook' a lot, most notoriously 'fookin prawns'
02:29:14 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: yeah i think fook is another interesting question. i bet S.A. uses a pure vowel, not [oʊ] but probably [o]
02:29:33 <Phantom_Hoover> someone's made a convenient compilation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E49BB1vE2tY
02:29:48 <augur> [foʊk] is an AmEn word: folk so it people are hearing fook, its because it doesnt sound like folk
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02:32:03 <augur> dialect perception is really tricky tho, do i dunno
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02:35:40 <boily> shovel shovel shovel ♪
02:39:27 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, oh i just remembered i got started on this whole diversion when i saw someone on reddit try to write an irish accent and end up with 'fook'
02:44:40 <augur> everyone knows its scottish people who say fook!
02:45:09 <augur> oh btw another possible issue is that no one knows IPA
02:45:31 * oerjan imagines boily ircing from deep inside a snow cave that he's digged himself
02:45:32 <Sgeo_> Is IPA that thing that all pronounciations are given in?
02:45:49 <pikhq> Sgeo_: If you're dealing with linguists, at least.
02:45:50 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: so if Joe Normal wants to write /fʊk/ they would analogize to book and write fook
02:45:57 <boily> hellørjan. it's not a snow cave, it's a snow dwelling. it has rooms!
02:46:12 <pikhq> It's the script that has all the phonemes.
02:46:15 <augur> but fook can also be seen as /fuk/ and so there you go
02:46:21 <augur> pikhq: phones, not phonemes
02:46:45 <oerjan> boily: as long as it doesn't have dwelling-ins
02:46:54 <pikhq> Ah, because "phonemes" only makes sense in the context of a particular language?
02:46:54 <lambdabot> ENVA 200150Z 24013KT 9999 FEW013 SCT026 BKN051 M01/M03 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 27017KT
02:47:17 <augur> pikhq: no, just because "phoneme" means roughly "equivalence class of phones"
02:47:25 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: not even glaswegians?
02:47:26 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: fsvo fook :)
02:47:33 <lambdabot> CYUL 200200Z 26017G23KT 15SM -SN DRSN BKN035 OVC150 M10/M14 A2999 RMK SC5AC3 SLP160
02:47:37 <Sgeo_> Talk to my old grey fook!
02:47:51 <boily> DRSN like there's no tomorrow!
02:47:52 <pikhq> And thus "all the phonemes" would be about as useful as "all the letters" rather than "all the glyphs".
02:50:32 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i see no glaswegians tdnh
02:50:59 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: of course scots say fook
02:51:10 <augur> i've watched nae mince in moray, dont pretend!
02:51:13 <augur> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP9BtScBQaI
02:52:48 <augur> you're practical ENGLISH!
02:53:26 <augur> nah he doesnt say fuck, thats true
02:53:57 <augur> he does say oot (and wrote it too) and coo for cow and so on, like the fake canadian dialect
02:55:39 <Phantom_Hoover> but 'fook' doesn't hit me as 'fuck' in any accent i recognise
02:55:39 <augur> i do think tho that /ʊ/ is maybe anglicized irish maybe? i can hear Dara Ó Briain saying it, i think
02:56:38 <augur> or maybe he says ɔ or something. on british television he doesnt use feck as much as he probably does with an irish audience
02:57:57 <Phantom_Hoover> like i'm fairly sure father ted is doused in 'feck' because if they'd been saying 'fuck' that much they'd have been asked to rein it in
02:58:43 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, it might well be that i have a very pronounced idea of how 'fuck' sounds
02:59:40 <oerjan> this one has it beeped out but the text rhymes it with Tuc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gLC4h0_C1Q
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03:32:11 <tswett> So, you know what a great system for expressing musical pitch is?
03:32:25 <tswett> One "point" is one 848th of an octave.
03:32:47 <tswett> See, we can assign nominal sizes to various intervals—
03:33:38 <tswett> a minor third is nominally 223 points, a major third is 273, a perfect fourth is 352, a perfect fifth is 496, a minor sixth is 575, a major sixth is 625—
03:34:23 <tswett> such that these nominal sizes add and subtract perfectly, and the nominal size of an interval is almost always the correctly rounded version of its exact size.
03:35:50 <tswett> A minor second has a nominal size of 79 points. There are two different kinds of major seconds, with different nominal sizes: the smaller one is 129 points, the larger one is 144 points.
03:36:18 <tswett> The difference between these two numbers is 15 points, the nominal size of a syntonic comma.
03:41:08 <tswett> The enharmonic diesis, whatever the heck that is (it's a ratio of 128 to 125), is nominally 29 points.
03:41:30 <tswett> Now, there's an interval called the schisma, which is exactly the difference between an enharmonic diesis and two syntonic commas.
03:41:36 <tswett> This interval is nominally 1 point.
03:41:49 <tswett> That is, of course, the correct rounded value.
03:43:08 <tswett> So what this comes to is that 848-EDO suggests a pretty decent way of expressing just interval sizes.
03:43:59 <tswett> It's gonna be hard to make two "reasonable" just intervals that have the same nominal size, so a nominal size will usually determine just one just interval.
03:45:04 <tswett> And nominal sizes are a very good match for the actual size of an interval.
03:45:19 <tswett> Like, good luck finding a perceptible difference.
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03:59:48 <tswett> So, 848-EDO tempers out two commas.
04:01:25 <tswett> First is the "superpythagorean comma" which is 53 perfect fifths minus 31 octaves. This comma is 3.615 cents.
04:02:42 <tswett> And second is some other weird comma, which 10 perfect fifths, plus 16 major thirds, minus 11 octaves.
04:02:51 <tswett> This one is 0.569 cents.
04:04:01 <tswett> The frequency ratio for the former is 19383245667680019896796723/19342813113834066795298816; the frequency ratio for the latter is 9010162353515625/9007199254740992.
04:05:06 <tswett> Of course, 848-EDO also tempers out any integer linear combination of these commas.
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05:04:31 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: These are serious languages with Eso roots, so I can't just do it without thought
05:04:54 <coppro> you might be thinking of a ukulele
05:05:47 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: One is inspired by Mascarpone and is based off of meta-circular interpretation, the other is rooted in mathematics, with Graphs and Matrices being primitive data types
05:07:40 * oerjan suddenly regrets not saying he was thinking of a ululele
05:08:45 <oerjan> incidentally, "ukuleke" and "ululele" both give about 1.5k hits
05:09:28 <oerjan> the significant digits are not very many
05:11:27 <oerjan> i,i meta-circulr matrices
05:11:52 <oerjan> muphry's law is strong today, even though i only vaguely fit the prerequisites
05:12:03 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes, you could have a matrix of meta-circular interpreters
05:12:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: murphy: not found
05:12:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: muphry: not found
05:13:00 <oerjan> i see coppro is also affected
05:13:36 <coppro> yeah, I cannot spell muphry correctly
05:15:02 <oerjan> `le/rn muphrys law/Mumphrie's Law says things will be misspelled at the worst possible moment.
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05:16:58 <HackEgo> guideX: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
05:17:11 <hppavilion[1]> Hackbot's a little slow today. Took 7 seconds to respond ._.
05:17:54 <hppavilion[1]> The channel is mostly asleep at this moment IIANC, but the wiki is always full of stuff
05:22:57 <\oren\> i'm awake, because I almost live and work by california time
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05:29:56 <oerjan> today i seem to have got a backlash to beijing time
05:51:19 <pikhq> Some of my coworkers in Zurich seem to do the same.
05:51:33 <pikhq> At least, I *hope* that's why they're answering things at 1 AM their time.
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08:05:35 <izabera> a man, a plan, a god's 'nam tables, nitrate, tar, tinsel, batman's dog: anal panama
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08:26:05 <HackEgo> [U+0105 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH OGONEK]
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08:29:28 <HackEgo> 740) <shachaf> U+2205 [∅] NO LETTER O ALLOWED
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09:17:53 <mroman> how the fuck can fflush cause a sigsegv?
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09:54:33 <mroman> shouldn't it then use EBADF or something like that?
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10:05:55 <oerjan> mroman: if it gets something that's non-NULL but not pointing to an actual FILE, it might try to follow something it thinks should be a valid pointer but isn't...
10:06:45 <oerjan> *an actual valid FILE structure
10:07:18 <oerjan> i.e. it won't check for totally corrupted memory or bad casts
10:18:26 <mroman> yeah but that FD is int
10:18:49 <oerjan> mroman: FILE is not necessarily FD afaik
10:22:06 <mroman> unistd apparentely has no flush
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10:26:45 <oerjan> mroman: i am not sure that file descriptors without a stream _have_ any buffering to flush
10:27:48 <oerjan> yeah, fsync looks like the closest
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11:18:31 <mroman> oerjan: I confused unistd stuff with stdio stuff
11:18:42 <mroman> stdio stuff uses FILE*
11:18:49 <mroman> whereas unistd uses int
11:21:11 <fizzie> I would have hoped a compiler to say an empathic 'no' to fflush(fd).
11:27:34 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/cc: not found
11:27:40 <HackEgo> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 53: 310 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
11:28:03 <oerjan> `! c int n = 1; fflush(n);
11:28:12 <HackEgo> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 53: 313 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
11:28:59 <oerjan> `! c include <stdio.h>\nint main() { int n = 1; fflush(n); }
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11:29:37 <oerjan> `! c #include <stdio.h>\nint main() { int n = 1; fflush(n); }
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11:30:54 <fizzie> `cc #include <stdio.h> \n int main() { int n = 1; fflush(n); }
11:31:25 <oerjan> maybe it's just random
11:31:43 <fizzie> It's an enabled-by-default warning, but not an error.
11:31:48 <oerjan> anyway, it's definitely not type safe
11:31:57 <fizzie> And our `cc and `! c aren't that good about error reporting.
11:32:05 <fizzie> warning: passing argument 1 of ‘fflush’ makes pointer from integer without a cast [enabled by default]
11:32:53 <fizzie> Without a prototype, it's a warning for -std=c99 or newer, because C99 removed implicit function declarations.
11:33:42 <fizzie> (But GCC versions < 5 default to "gnu89".)
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11:41:06 <mroman> hm I must have missed the warnings
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11:41:34 <mroman> I guess that's why I always use -Wall -Werror (at least with gcc)
11:48:24 <fizzie> "Subject: LET US ACTUALIZE THIS DREAM TOGETHER"
11:49:42 <fizzie> (The dream in question involves $8.6M USD "kept in a big suitcase secretly hidden", as well as 86 kg of gold.)
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11:57:17 <int-e> useful. "A million dollars will fit inside a microwave oven." http://izismile.com/2011/05/31/where_can_you_hide_one_million_dollars_cash_13_pics.html
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11:59:44 <int-e> (I was wondering how big that big suitcase would have to be)
12:00:25 <ais523> there's a gameshow on UK TV called The Million Pound Drop
12:00:34 <ais523> one of its main gimmicks is that it's played with a physical million pounds in cash
12:00:58 <ais523> if you happen to see even just the start of the show, it gives you a good idea of what that looks like volume-wise
12:01:18 <ais523> "big suitcase" thus feels about right, a small one wouldn't be big enough but a big one would be
12:01:23 * APic will leech a Sample from YouTube, thanks ais523.
12:02:08 <ais523> I assume that when the contestants win (some subset) of it the producers just take the cash back and give a cheque for the value in exchange
12:02:17 <ais523> so that they don't have to keep getting more cash as the episode goes on
12:02:25 <ais523> although perhaps they have another few million spare just in case :-)
12:05:10 <Taneb> ais523, there's no Bank of England £100 notes, and £50s are quite large, so £1000000 is gonna be a lot larger volume than $1000000
12:05:27 <Taneb> Unless you're in Scotland maybe
12:05:31 <ais523> I assume the show uses £50s but I wasn't paying attention
12:06:03 <ais523> also Bank of Scotland notes are legal in England, aren't they? just most stores don't accept them because they don't know how to check if they're genuine
12:08:11 <Taneb> They're as much currency as the shopkeeper says it is
12:08:29 <Taneb> And they're not legal tender (even in Scotland)
12:09:26 <ais523> that's because nothing is legal tender in Scotland
12:11:07 <mroman> http://codepad.org/0Lq8BCpP \o/
12:12:40 <Taneb> mroman, what are you doing?
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12:14:08 <mroman> Taneb: It's kind of a high-level virtual machine.
12:14:22 <mroman> let's say "shell emulator" I don't know how to call it exactly.
12:15:18 <Taneb> Hmm, sounds like it could be interesting
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12:44:49 <mroman> currently you can't cat the same file twice o_O
12:46:28 <mroman> ah didn't properly open files
12:50:03 <mroman> http://codepad.org/gRbWOoAu works now :)
12:52:39 <mroman> Taneb: I'll give you an account once it's up and running in the wild ;)
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14:17:39 <b_jonas_> fungot, why did you reconnect me?
14:17:40 <fungot> b_jonas_: atomic unit. you can't very well call them. like that one. do you favour any particular album of his? what's he need a dns implementation for? i do like females with character, ya know
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14:19:12 <oerjan> is fungot implying he atomically changed your gender
14:19:12 <fungot> oerjan: wish i had food here. will be over
14:19:43 <oerjan> fungot: um i'm not sure i have anything bots can eat
14:19:43 <fungot> oerjan: you obviously don't. :p fnord/ sym/ fnord) can i tell csi to load that value into the variable " window-system" will be used
14:20:02 <oerjan> fungot: sorry i don't know csi
14:20:03 <fungot> oerjan: no fun killing them when you have no lips, mister bob. after that, it's very difficult to be defined before you use the low-level libraries. thus, as knowledge approaches zero, money approaches infinity, the interpreter
14:20:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
14:21:12 <int-e> "no fun killing them when you have no lips, mister bob." is quotable
14:23:00 <oerjan> hm i think iwc reruns are about where it was when i started reading it
14:23:00 <fizzie> Sounds like it came from a movie.
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14:32:51 <b_jonas> hmm, that's a good idea. in an esolang, I should call the flip function inSovietRussia or something like that
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14:59:52 <mroman> as knowledge approaches zero, money approaches infinitiy
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15:07:02 <mroman> @define inSovietRussia = flip ($)
15:07:20 <mroman> > [0..9] `inSovietRussia` reverse
15:07:54 <mroman> @define inGermany = ($!)
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16:39:34 <mroman> http://codepad.org/uSihdC3c :)
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20:40:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46238&oldid=46237 * GermanyBoy * (+154) /* Copyright Violation */
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22:16:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PanASCIIc Programming Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46239 * Hppavilion1 * (+1789) Created Page
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22:30:29 <mauris> strictly apply a function
22:31:08 <mauris> > const 0 undefined -- evaluating undefined would give an error, but we don't need to
22:31:20 <mauris> > const 0 $! undefined -- this way we force haskell to evaluate it
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22:58:10 <fizzie> It took me this long in life to realize there's a pun in the name "K-9".
22:58:51 <myname> we havea similar pun on university
23:00:43 <fizzie> I don't know, how long has it been? 32 years or so. Not that I spent all that time thinking about it.
23:00:44 <shachaf> fizzie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Paulproteus/List_of_puns_that_took_Asheesh_more_than_a_year_to_get hth
23:00:58 <shachaf> you should make a page like that
23:01:09 <fizzie> I haven't been keeping track.
23:02:39 <fizzie> Ray-Ban was a new one for me.
23:04:12 <myname> shachaf: i don't get some of these
23:04:53 <myname> what abput that don't let's start thing?
23:05:03 <myname> i don't even understand
23:06:20 <shachaf> https://play.google.com/music/preview/Ttveq7pmiusetyflqcu4sk6jxne?lyrics=1
23:08:10 <fizzie> Also I logged onto my flickr account for the first time in over a year, and someone had sent three identical messages about wanting to use a picture of an elephant on a website that's a database of pictures of elephants.
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23:12:17 <shachaf> Is https://www.flickr.com/photos/21230734@N06/ you?
23:15:22 <fizzie> https://www.flickr.com/photos/fizzief/14435641202/ is the elephant in question.
23:15:27 <fizzie> (I'm not the elephant either.)
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00:07:03 <int-e> you could add some very small holes
00:08:13 <hppavilion[1]> It is designed for data analysis and for meta-circular interpretation
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00:51:02 <shachaf> EgoBot, FireFly, glogbot, and fungot all in a row
00:51:02 <fungot> shachaf: so the moral of this story: be careful with it, and extract the relevant value.
00:51:23 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
00:51:40 <fizzie> It resets to irc at each restart, I didn't bother to make that part of state persistent.
00:51:40 <shachaf> Wasn't there a Calvin & Hobbes style?
00:52:14 <shachaf> I might be thinking of another bot.
00:53:36 <boily> hppavilion[1]: yes.
00:53:45 <boily> hellochaf. bots are good. you should have yours.
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01:04:30 <FireFly> shachaf: beep, boop. Looked like he.net had some routing issues
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01:13:30 <fungot> boily: oz makes haskell's syntax looks good. thanks :) the algorithm seems quite easy :) or maybe i'm confusing the two
01:14:13 <boily> fungot: don't confuse your two nostrils. or the number of you happen to possess. by the way, what are you?
01:14:14 <fungot> boily: if you use `seq`? i use nano fnord integer_list) fnord ( verb) fnord ( or fnord from plt-match?
01:14:32 <boily> fungot: I don't use seq, nor nano.
01:14:32 <fungot> boily: haha good quote
01:14:42 * boily mapoles the fungot
01:14:43 <fungot> boily: some girl from germany just messaged me and turned out the freezer was set to some sort of esoteric natural language.
01:15:05 <boily> `addquote <fungot> boily: some girl from germany just messaged me and turned out the freezer was set to some sort of esoteric natural language.
01:15:09 <HackEgo> 1261) <fungot> boily: some girl from germany just messaged me and turned out the freezer was set to some sort of esoteric natural language.
01:20:50 <HackEgo> 1261) <fungot> boily: some girl from germany just messaged me and turned out the freezer was set to some sort of esoteric natural language.
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01:58:07 <HackEgo> lachine/Unholy portal to China, closely guarded from Ëvil by Roujo.
01:58:31 <boily> @tell Roujo you come back here you vile guardian.
01:59:43 <boily> `culprits wisdom/dy
01:59:59 <boily> huh. and I thought it would be shachaf.
02:00:13 <boily> @tell tswett remind me that you deserve a mapole hth
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03:10:01 <oerjan> <fizzie> Ray-Ban was a new one for me. <-- wait, how is that a pun, i thought it was the straight up meaning.
03:10:43 <oerjan> there's certainly no better pun in the user page linked
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03:13:31 <FireFly> I never realised what the name referred to until a year or so ago too
03:13:52 <FireFly> I mean it's not exactly a pun, but it was nonobvious to me..
03:14:34 <shachaf> wait until you hear about oer-jans
03:14:57 <oerjan> that's also not a pun hth
04:35:21 <zgrep> What does hth stand for... ?
04:38:12 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
04:50:00 <\oren\_> Oh wow, they found Nibiru!
04:50:15 <\oren\_> or, evidence that Nibiru exists.
04:51:53 <\oren\_> whatever, a large planet with gravitational influence on the kuiper belt
04:52:43 <\oren\_> oh, wait that theory was called Nemesis
04:53:00 <\oren\_> So they found evidence that a nemesis-like object exists
04:58:25 <oerjan> i wonder if they'll officially name it nemesis just to mess with people. what name group would it fall under?
04:59:01 * oerjan has the wikipedia tab open but hasn't got to it yet
05:02:18 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: AFAIK there is no provision about naming planets in our Solar System, but English names are typically based on mythological gods/goddesses so it can be actually accepted
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05:08:32 <hppavilion[1]> The theory of Mascarpone-like languages (languages with anonymous interpreters)
05:08:54 <\oren\_> Hmm. until an official name is decided, I will call it planet Cirno (9)
05:09:39 <\oren\_> hppavilion[1]: right, I'm talking about the new planet that was discovered
05:10:01 <\oren\_> They discovered evidence for a planet 10 times the size of Earth
05:10:18 <\oren\_> somewhere 20 times as far away as Neptune
05:10:43 <zgrep> I'm not exactly sure why that's... you know... surprising...
05:10:45 <ais523> it's three-sigma evidence, apaprently
05:11:00 <ais523> depending on how often they look for these things, it /could/ be coincidence
05:13:29 <oerjan> if it were a subatomic particle, they'd just yawn at such evidence
05:14:02 <ais523> I think scientifically, three is enough for people to take an announcement seriously, but to consider it to be preliminary
05:14:03 <\oren\_> if it isn't there, then they will be the planet (9) バカ
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05:14:40 <lifthrasiir> \oren\_: Cirno sounds great, she is a fairy and not a goddess however
05:18:53 <\oren\_> and associated with the number 9
05:22:24 <\oren\_> eh, fairy, goddess whatever
05:23:44 <ais523> how many sigma do you need to claim a new subatomic particle? five? six?
05:29:09 <FireFly> it's apparently even an icy planet, so I guess it fits
05:32:27 <ais523> how strong is one-sigma evidence? I don't have it memorized
05:33:09 <zgrep> It goes 68%, 95%, 99.7% I think, or something like that.
05:33:13 <ais523> as opposed to the 50% chance you get with no evidence at all
05:33:24 <ais523> (if the thing wasn't 50:50 originally, then ofc you need more evidence to make it more likely)
05:33:34 <lifthrasiir> 68%, 95%, 99.7%, 99.99%, 99.9999%, 99.99999998%
05:34:44 <ais523> I almost want to OEIS that
05:34:47 <ais523> but those aren't integers :-P
05:35:39 <lifthrasiir> seq:68,95,99 does not yield a sequence FYI
05:54:57 <oerjan> <ais523> as opposed to the 50% chance you get with no evidence at all <-- i am not sure that's how significance works.
05:55:33 <oerjan> or rather, i'm pretty sure it's not, but my brain isn't entirely working.
05:57:24 <ais523> oerjan: it's the otherway round
05:57:46 <ais523> one sigma evidence only gives you a 68% chance of being true on a scale where no evidence is 50%
05:58:14 <ais523> if something is unlikely, it needs greater evidence to compensate
05:59:26 <pikhq> Of course, the response here isn't to declare it "obviously a real planet" but to point telescopes in the right direction and see what you find. :)
06:07:36 <ais523> oh wow, sudo is getting even more meta for me
06:07:53 <ais523> you know how it does "this incident will be reported", then actually reports it?
06:08:06 <ais523> I entered the wrong password three times last Saturday
06:08:18 <ais523> but on my new server I haven't set up an email alias for root
06:08:27 <ais523> so instead of getting an email about it
06:08:40 <ais523> it went and tried for five days to send a message to root warning that I'd entered the wrong password three times
06:08:45 <ais523> and eventually gave up and it bounced
06:08:49 <ais523> but the /sender/ is a valid email address
06:09:18 <ais523> so I just got a bounce error message from my mailer, telling me that the message "I" sent to root telling me I'd entered my password incorrectly three times couldn't be delivered
06:10:03 <ais523> this leads me to continue worrying about sudo's actual security level
06:10:25 <hppavilion[1]> It even works with extra arguments to a combinator (e.g. Jabcd) :)
06:12:40 <oerjan> ais523: does this mean someone could prevent those messages from being sent by messing up their own email setup?
06:12:53 <ais523> oerjan: I'm not sure, possibly
06:12:59 <ais523> there are much easier ways to prevent them being sent though
06:13:25 <ais523> I think they're only intended for catching people who have no idea what they're doing
06:16:31 <ais523> sudo literally has an option to check if you're allowed to do something
06:16:47 <ais523> so you could just write a wrapper that does the check first, then does the action if it succeeds
06:17:22 <Sgeo_> Some code I wrote is compiling. But I don't want it to compile, it's UB that I'm trying to block at compile-time
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06:27:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Gytdau * New user account
06:47:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tome]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46240 * Gytdau * (+680) First draft of the page
06:50:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46241&oldid=46215 * Gytdau * (+11)
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08:44:08 <hppavilion[1]> I'm currently making a Proof Assistant to help me understand the C-H I
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09:18:49 <oerjan> the C-H I, the mysterious force that binds logic and computation together
09:21:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46242&oldid=46235 * Ennullizer * (-98) /* Implementation */
09:22:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46243&oldid=46242 * Ennullizer * (+10) /* Implementation */
09:22:37 <oerjan> i'd use pinyin, but first someone has to find a reference where Quine invented it first.
09:25:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46244&oldid=46243 * Ennullizer * (+35)
09:26:26 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: the last letter is a bit variable
09:26:54 <lifthrasiir> I claim that E is too strong word to use for anything
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09:27:38 <oerjan> but E is just a case of I
09:27:47 <oerjan> categorically speaking
09:28:31 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: it can be argued that there is one-to-one mapping for them but is *not* intuitively understood in that way
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09:29:45 <HackEgo> 790) <Phantom__Hoover> the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september \ 1245) <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing)
09:29:56 <HackEgo> 1245) <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing)
09:30:09 <lifthrasiir> it is like that, well, one can apply the reduction (in the complexity theoretic sense) to get an "isomorphic" problem but it is clearly not "equivalent" because (for example) their time complexities may differ
09:30:32 <ais523> I've only just realised that 790 isn't even self-contradictory
09:30:43 * lifthrasiir realized that his explanation is more complex than the original statement
09:30:45 <ais523> parts of september genuinely are in summer, and cloud doesn't prevent warmth
09:32:12 <oerjan> indian summer in scotland
09:35:34 <oerjan> mroman: yeah leaving that out would be un-ethical
09:36:09 * oerjan researching tensile strength of puns
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09:40:47 <mroman> http://www.thewebsters.ch/en/stories/8
09:40:58 <mroman> swiss gov is making educational comics about the dangerzone internet.
09:42:33 <mroman> http://www.thewebsters.ch/en/stories/14
09:42:56 <mroman> what kind of fucking moron buys meds online in switzerland o_O
09:47:31 <mroman> I'm disappointed that they're not in swiss german though :(
09:49:58 <oerjan> i am guessing swiss german isn't actually an official language in switzerland.
09:50:40 <mroman> and nobody speaks rumantsch
09:51:11 <oerjan> nobody where you live, i take
09:51:18 <mroman> Rumantsch is the equivalent of looking at swiss german and then creating high german :)
09:51:32 <mroman> It's not a natural language.
09:52:16 <mroman> It was invented in the eighties based on several dialects
09:52:41 <mroman> It's about as popular as german for swiss german speakers ;)
09:52:49 <mroman> Nobody wants to use it in day to day conversations.
09:52:51 <oerjan> hey that's how nynorsk was made
09:54:06 <mroman> Cò ho'la vis sün ün pin ün corv chi tgnaiva ün töch chaschöl in sieu pical.
09:54:14 <mroman> Qua ha ella vis sin in pign in corv che tegneva in toc chaschiel en ses pichel
09:54:21 <oerjan> http://www.thewebsters.ch/en/stories/8
09:54:32 <oerjan> ...how did i paste that.
09:55:28 <mroman> Cheu ha ella viu sin in pegn in tgaper che teneva in toc caschiel en siu bec
09:55:45 <mroman> Qua â ella vieu sen egn pegn egn corv ca taneva egn toc caschiel ainten sieus pecel
09:56:49 <mroman> (the second one (the one with Qua ha) is the official rumantsch)
09:57:05 <mroman> (the other ones are the spoken dialects)
09:58:57 <fizzie> That was a bit of a letdown.
10:05:15 <HackEgo> Thanks, HackEgo. ThackEgo.
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10:39:50 <fungot> b_jonas: uh... yeah. what about doing something really crazy and writing a whirl code generator
10:39:53 <HackEgo> Thanks, fungot.. Thungot..
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11:03:06 <mroman> make tools that block ads
11:03:15 <mroman> charge adnets to unblock ads in your tool
11:03:26 <mroman> make tools that block ads except from your own adnet
11:03:38 <mroman> make people pay for delivering ads through your adnet
11:03:44 <mroman> fungot: Where's your adnet?
11:03:44 <fungot> mroman: i'm thinking of retrying uberman. i dunno
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11:10:22 <b_jonas> people are already doing that
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11:40:39 <boily> `relcome LexiciScriptor
11:40:58 <HackEgo> LexiciScriptor: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
11:42:44 <boily> good LexiciScriptorning.
11:44:04 <ais523> didn't we stop troll-welcoming regulars a while back?
11:44:16 <ais523> thus a welcome is either someone new or me being mistaken as to whether someone is new
11:44:35 <ais523> (I'm not online all that often, so don't always know someone's been here before)
11:44:43 <ais523> (also I'm not good at remembering nicks anyway)
11:46:01 <boily> his523. I prefer `relcoming people I haven't seen yet, even if they already were `relcomed :)
11:46:43 <boily> LexiciScriptor: have you visited our wiki? experimenting is always nice.
11:48:43 <ais523> the wiki's community portal is the main place people find out about the channel
11:48:46 <ais523> that, and guessing the name
11:51:03 <ais523> right, I'm just talking statistically
11:51:24 <ais523> I know I found the channel via the wiki, and that was years ago
11:51:27 <ais523> (and found the wiki via Wikipedia)
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13:07:00 <b_jonas> does writing into a file always clear the setuid permission bit of that file, or only if the writer isn't root?
13:07:45 <b_jonas> apparently only if the writer isn't root. but that doesn't make any sense.
13:07:55 <b_jonas> why isn't the bit cleared if the writer process is root?
13:09:46 <mroman> so the binary can update itself?
13:10:26 <b_jonas> update itself? seriously? do we live in the 80s?
13:11:31 <b_jonas> Maybe it's for compatibility with old buggy viruses that inject code into setuid binaries without checking permission bits.
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13:27:47 <mroman> Why do OS generally have so little built-in support for "jails"?
13:27:57 <mroman> (i.e. to control what processes/users can do)
13:29:02 <mroman> (restrict them to specific directories/files/ports etc.)
13:29:39 <FireFly> Because OSes generally don't focus that much on security since it causes trouble for application writers and backward compatibliity?
13:43:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ennullizer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46245&oldid=46234 * Ennullizer * (-2) /* Me */
13:46:14 <mroman> fuck the application writers
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13:51:38 <oerjan> mroman: how dichotomic
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14:59:53 <\oren\_> Oh, and if Cirno has a moon, I'll call it Daiyousei!
15:00:02 <mroman> setuid should probably be cleared even if root writes to it
15:00:13 <mroman> in case somebody manages to overwrite the binary with a malicous one
15:01:20 <\oren\_> hmm. but then wouln't apps meant to be setuid simply set it back to true?
15:01:36 <\oren\_> after the update write that is
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15:04:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46246&oldid=46202 * Hurricane996 * (+83)
15:16:27 <b_jonas> fungot, do you like C++ templates?
15:16:28 <fungot> b_jonas: and btw... scm is ' bleh'... ' bleh' as in http://mumble.net/campbell/ blog.txt for the important things using wrapping bf program that is both really intuitive, and the
15:16:48 <b_jonas> fungot, I think you still don't understand how quotation marks work in text
15:16:49 <fungot> b_jonas: its really good.
15:32:23 <myname> 'Difference to Haskell: A user defined operator must not start with the comment introducting characters {- or --."
15:43:09 <FreeFull> myname: Seems it allows -- but not {-
15:44:16 <FreeFull> I'm not sure { is allowed in operators anyway
15:44:32 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: parse error on input ‘{’
15:48:48 <mroman> well time to implement pipes for virtunet :)
15:51:54 <mroman> well not pipes but the | operator
15:52:05 <mroman> but that will require pipes :)
15:52:15 <mroman> but a pipe is just a memory mapped file in this case so...
15:54:59 <mroman> and since i'm lazy as fuck I just split by '|'
15:55:16 <mroman> I'm not even going to support quotes :)
15:55:28 <mroman> I'll just require users to escape spaces and |
16:04:19 <mauris> > let (--*--) x y = x + y in (--*--) 3 4
16:04:24 <mauris> > let (--*--) x y = x + y in 3 --*-- 4
16:04:42 <mauris> -- starts a comment "except when it doesn't"
16:05:02 <Taneb> Starts a comment except when part of a larger token
16:05:19 <Taneb> > let (---) = (+) in 3 --- 4
16:05:21 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
16:05:41 <mauris> > let (<--) = (+) in 3 <-- 4
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16:17:43 <mroman> http://codepad.org/X4lc1q6n
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19:48:44 <oerjan> <FireFly> erase the noise. <-- but now there's a different one ;_;
20:04:46 <oerjan> <Taneb> How mysterious <-- the comment tokens are actually /-(-)+/ hth
20:05:55 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> How mysterious <-- the comment tokens are actually /-(-)+/ hth
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20:14:51 <oerjan> ----------- so you can make nice formatting -----------
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20:16:26 <oerjan> see e.g. http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/emmental/emmental.hs
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20:17:02 <oerjan> oh hm that's cpressey's
20:18:01 <oerjan> turns out i didn't do it in my program
20:22:27 <oerjan> seems i use it far less than i thought, the first program i found where i did was http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/BCT.hs
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23:37:29 <shachaf> contrapumpkin: hi contrapumpkin
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00:05:18 <boily> hellochaf. something that is a stack, but also an array?
00:05:59 <shachaf> Maybe it's https://i.ytimg.com/vi/MMDo1czqcto/hqdefault.jpg
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00:32:43 <\oren\_> let F:ℕ→ℕ be the function that takes a natural number, decomposes it into primes p₁,p₂… exponents n₁,n₂…, then returns p₂^n₁*p₃^n₂*⋯.
00:32:54 <\oren\_> then what the fuck have I invented
00:33:32 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\_: The OH MY GOD I THOUGHT I WAS JUST DOING IDENTITY function?
00:33:53 <\oren\_> letF(1)=2,F(2)=3 F(3)=5 F(4)=
00:34:47 <\oren\_> let's see: F(4)=9 F(5)=7 F(6)=15 F(7)=11 F(8)=27
00:36:29 <\oren\_> F(9)=25 F(10)=21 F(11)=13 F(12)=45
00:38:09 <mauris> \oren\_: ... * p_1^n_k ?
00:38:49 <fizzie> Oh, you mean p_i is the i'th prime overall.
00:38:51 <boily> writing programs is for quitters. real men do it by hand!
00:38:56 <fizzie> Not just the i'th prime in the decomposition.
00:39:19 <\oren\_> yah, that's why F(12) is 45
00:39:25 <mauris> i wouldn't say F(1)=2 then
00:39:56 <mauris> cause all the exponents are 0
00:40:38 <fizzie> It seems to be A003961.
00:42:29 <lambdabot> Fully multiplicative with a(p(k)) = p(k+1) for k-th prime p(k).[1,3,5,9,7,15...
00:43:13 <\oren\_> and I guess that fully defines the sequence then
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01:33:16 <ais523> I guess you start with formal logic and change some of the axioms/rules
01:33:22 <ais523> I'm not sure which ones though
01:33:56 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: How about something stranger than that? xD
01:34:22 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well I'm trying to think of a way to change even one rule in a way that doesn't cause the whole thing to fail spectacularly
01:34:24 <ais523> other than just removing it
01:34:42 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Fair point. Perhaps something other than a logic?
01:48:49 <boily> tswett: warrigello.
01:51:29 <lifthrasiir> ais, hppavilion[1]: well, start with http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/meredith.html ?
01:59:01 <ais523> hmm, I guess if you remove exchange but keep all the others
01:59:10 <ais523> which is /not/ a standard form of substructural logic
01:59:14 <ais523> you end up with some sort of stack-based logic
01:59:29 <ais523> even then, though, it's still a subset of "regular" logic
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04:39:39 <hppavilion[1]> What kind of languages does the world need for serious usage? Ones that could draw on Esotericism?
04:41:24 <lifthrasiir> ah, sorry; were you asking for *programming* languages?
04:45:21 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Something that fits a niche area, sort of like what PHP does. In fact, an acceptable answer would be "PHP, but good"
04:59:57 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Dunno about <? and ?>
05:22:23 <FreeFull> Picat is a pretty cool language
05:50:36 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Picat is pretty, but isn't anything like Cool
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09:30:21 <fizzie> I'm not sure <? ?> themselves have a name, but the syntactical construct of XML that uses them is called a "processing instruction" (PI).
09:32:50 <fizzie> PI ::= '<?' PITarget (S (Char* - (Char* '?>' Char*)))? '?>'
09:33:23 <fizzie> (The XML declaration at the start of the document might technically not be one.)
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12:09:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[111]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46247&oldid=41639 * LexiciScriptor * (+151) added implementation
12:13:12 <Taneb> Why does the topic use at least two different ff ligatures
12:20:31 <oerjan> Taneb: it uses an ff and an ffi ligature
12:21:02 <Taneb> The one in fluffy seems a lot bigger to me
12:21:19 <Taneb> Might be a font issue
12:21:27 <Taneb> I'mm not exactly using Computer Modern to IRC
12:21:55 <oerjan> if you're using monospaced font like i, then it's just because it's the only one which is just 2 chars squeezed and not 3
12:23:26 <oerjan> WHY YOU HAVE TWO CLIENTS
12:24:05 <Taneb> oerjan: I left IRC open on my desktop
12:24:25 <Taneb> I'm using CIRC right now (which is terrible don't use it)
12:24:45 <oerjan> oh so this znc thing is a damn-i've-forgotten-the-word
12:26:15 <Taneb> I am using HexChat on my desktop
12:26:19 <Taneb> And CIRC on my Chromebook
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14:53:50 <Taneb> I forgot this rush
14:54:10 <Taneb> The rush I get when programming using something I'm not used to
15:03:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46248&oldid=42784 * YoYoYonnY * (+139) /* String to byte */
15:05:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46249&oldid=46095 * YoYoYonnY * (+22) /* Extensions */
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15:13:17 <Taneb> Using a language with poor debugging facility
15:13:43 <Taneb> Very fun when things go wrong
15:16:08 <Taneb> Especially as the language is non-deterministic
15:25:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46250&oldid=46249 * YoYoYonnY * (+832) Added conventions
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19:15:13 <izabera> meanwhile in italy, a building collapsed, several people died, one of them was a black woman
19:15:26 <izabera> racist priest refused to bless her coffin
19:17:37 <vanila> can you link a news article?
19:17:56 <izabera> http://www.leggo.it/NEWS/ITALIA/don_angelo_chizzolini_rifiuta_benedire_marocchina_morta_foto/notizie/1803417.shtml sorry it's in italian
19:19:09 <LexiciScriptor> then you read this comment "Ha Fatto bene,perché poi bisogna benedire una non cristiana?fosse successo in Marocco la salma l'avrebbero buttata a mare"
19:20:08 <vanila> i cant beleive this still happening in 2016
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19:20:29 <mauris> LexiciScriptor: can you give a rough translation?
19:20:45 <mauris> something like "why bless a non-christian"?
19:21:06 <izabera> "good, you don't bless non cristians. it this happened in morocco they'd have thrown her in the sea"
19:21:34 <vanila> "blessing" doesn't do anything
19:21:43 <vanila> he's just being a dickhead
19:21:56 <vanila> everyone sould stop going to his church
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19:32:29 <shachaf> tromp_: I saw your article this morning. TG
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19:35:22 <vanila> nice go counting tromp
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19:40:22 <zzo38> I received the next issue of 2600 and I do not know why they have latitude/longitude listed on every one and some circular diagram with dots with numbers
19:42:34 <zzo38> I realized what else I need to add into Magic: the Puzzling: Codex, which is I need to add rules for timestamps of objects.
19:45:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46251&oldid=46216 * Hppavilion1 * (+662) EsoKit.ek toplevel functions (for NSIs)
20:00:38 <tromp_> http://tromp.github.io/go/legal.html
20:01:16 <tromp_> Hacker News thread discussion at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10950875
20:03:21 <int-e> heh, I visited that page about a week ago and was wondering when you'd finish :)
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20:25:08 <quintopia> nice work mr. tromp. always fun to see people throwing massive compute resources at finding useless numbers
20:28:02 <vanila> it has a lot of applications
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21:38:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[THRAT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46252&oldid=35524 * 50.152.193.163 * (-3) Name is Mate Varga, not Matthew
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22:44:51 <shachaf> i want to switch windows to read the olist
22:44:56 <HackEgo> olist 1020: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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22:53:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Erinius * New user account
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22:59:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Minebit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46253 * Erinius * (+149) Created page with "== Finite Memory == This page says that Minebit can only have finite memory. But can't its memory and program length be extended as long as you want?"
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23:39:53 <zzo38> This new issue of 2600 includes stuff about problems with open source hardware, which I agree with even before they have written about it in 2600 I have realized these problems. However, it is possible to make true open source hardware too
23:41:15 <vanila> im worried because there isn't enough open source hardware
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23:49:18 <boily> 2600 still exists?
23:49:26 <boily> hppavellon[1]. eh?
23:51:06 <hppavilion[1]> boily: It's the formal study of self-modifying, reflective, meta-circular interpreters and the languages that utilize them
23:51:24 <boily> ah. Cheese languages.
23:51:25 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Alternatively, it's me trying to mathematicalize Mascarpone
23:51:51 <zzo38> Yes 2600 still exists
23:52:02 <vanila> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Cheese
23:52:14 <zzo38> And yes there isn't enough open source hardware although the problem mentioned here is a different kind of problem
23:54:00 <hppavilion[1]> Terp :: (String -> Env -> Env, String -> Op -> Terp -> Terp)
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23:56:26 <hppavilion[1]> The first item in the Terp tuple is the getins function, which takes a string and returns a function that takes the environment and returns the new environment
23:57:19 <hppavilion[1]> The second item is the takeins function, which takes an instruction name, an operation that that instruction performs, and an interpreter, and it returns a new interpreter with that instruction string (re)defined to the operation
00:04:18 <\oren\_> just miniaturize and make faster versions of cpu designs that have expired patents
00:05:57 <zzo38> I would intend the entire computer and not only the CPU (although, CPU is also part of it)
00:21:06 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAÁAAAH!
00:30:50 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: You know what an isolating language is? In linguistics?
00:31:39 <zzo38> No I do not know, but I can learn, I can try to look it up in Wikipedia
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00:41:46 <boily> quintopia: on my last few minutes for the day. what do you tonight tonight?
00:44:34 <hppavilion[1]> What kind of language does the world need? Not necessarily for valid usage; more like a J-like language
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01:09:08 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: are you implying J doesn't have uses?
01:09:42 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: But how often is it seriously used in business?
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01:12:35 <FireFly> Sure, it's pretty esoteric
01:13:19 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: It's used for golfing more than for serious programming
01:13:35 <FireFly> Umm, not sure about that (though possibly)
01:13:57 <fizzie> How about serious business golfing?
01:14:22 <FireFly> I don't follow the jsoftware.com mailing lists, but I'm pretty sure it's used seriously in actual businesses
01:15:19 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, it was more compiler golfing than code golfing, but that's not the point
01:19:57 <fizzie> http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Stories -- "success stories" from businesseses.
01:20:27 <fizzie> Wonder if there's any J users at work.
01:20:50 <fizzie> Getting the work laptop out at 1:20am doesn't appeal enough to look for any.
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01:29:04 <mauris> I am definitely a J Convert.
01:29:18 <mauris> yup, apl/j/k still feels like a total cult when i read about it.
01:29:39 <mauris> some really strange ideologies about programming in those communities :/
01:33:10 <quintopia> mauris: if you like J, you'll love Jelly!
01:34:46 <mauris> disclaimer: i think they're both really cool, just inelegant and not something i'd seriously use for code i want anyone to see
01:34:53 <mauris> (outside the context of code golf...)
01:35:11 <Sgeo> J is interesting but I can't imagine ever learning it well enough to be able to come back to code written some time ago and understand it without a refresher in J
01:35:16 <Sgeo> With the exception of simple stuff
01:35:40 <mauris> shachaf: is mauchaf the new popular #esoteric slash pairing, titwties hth hand
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01:37:02 <mauris> Sgeo: i think part of the J mentality -- or at least the one that's popular in its community -- is just that you treat reading code very differently
01:37:15 <shachaf> mauris: that is the way that i extract sympathy?
01:37:23 <mauris> i asked a J user "how do you even piece apart all of the @: and & and [: stuff??"
01:37:28 <shachaf> i've never been part of a slash pairing before
01:37:43 <shachaf> other than the ever-present HackEgo/shachaf "hachaf", of course
01:38:00 <mauris> and they replied "i just throw the tails into the J interpreter and see what they do to the input"
01:38:33 <mauris> was going for: "that is the worst thing i've ever said"
01:39:43 <shachaf> i could go for a juicy maurjan piece
01:41:44 <mauris> sha523 is my OTP and also my favorite cryptographic hash function
01:43:14 <shachaf> you can't get a real OTP out of a cryptographic hash function hth
01:43:40 <mauris> is this an amazing crypto joke
01:43:50 <mauris> oh my god i just got it
01:46:32 <shachaf> Taneb: is combining your name with someone else's name Taneb-approved
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01:48:45 <\oren\_> I'm working on a new library to replace ncurses
01:50:43 <\oren\_> why? because ncurses is too complicated
01:51:22 <mauris> i've always been sorta disappointed in the lack of a middle ground when it comes to terminal graphics libraries
01:52:03 <mauris> it seems as if you either work directly with ncurses, or you work with something that has Widgets and Layers and Fields and whatever
01:52:13 <\oren\_> specifically, color support is way too complex for ncurses
01:52:32 <ais523> \oren\_: I wrote my own curses replacement a while back
01:52:41 <ais523> although it was meant to be very easy to port existing curses programs to it
01:53:08 <\oren\_> ah... yah that definitely won't be the case here
01:56:16 <\oren\_> basically, this library is much more directly attached to the ANSI escape codes that it outputs
02:00:18 <\oren\_> e.g. instead of writing "\e[1;32;44m" you write oiocolor(1,LIME,NAVY);
02:00:41 <\oren\_> where 1 is the file descriptor of the terminal
02:02:41 * Sgeo misses the Factory ABCDEF language
02:06:49 <hppavilion[1]> I am more than half tempted to make a valiant effort towards implementing Compute/IO
02:07:39 <hppavilion[1]> What happens if we train Fungot on the specifications for programming languages and ask her to make a programming language?
02:09:04 <Sgeo> Still better than PHP </low-effort-jokes>
02:09:36 <ais523> \oren\_: I wouldn't call something a curses replacement unless it does screen addressing
02:10:24 <\oren\_> ais523: oh it does do that
02:10:49 <\oren\_> but it doesn't optimize your output with a refresh-cycle and double buffering
02:11:05 <Sgeo> I should learn ANSI escape codes
02:11:12 <ais523> character encoding handling?
02:11:17 <\oren\_> http://www.orenwatson.be/ansi.htm
02:11:19 <ais523> Sgeo: they're not hard, /but/ they are inconsistent between terminals
02:11:28 <\oren\_> ais523: it only supports utf-8 right now
02:11:34 <ais523> I did a lot of experimentation to figure out which were the most stable
02:11:37 <ais523> \oren\_: what if the terminal doesn't support utf-8?
02:11:46 <ais523> are you at least sending codes to put the terminal into UTF-8 mode?
02:11:47 <Sgeo> ais523, but, um. crud. what does the world do then?
02:12:03 <ais523> Sgeo: typically handles things badly
02:12:27 <ais523> the original plan was to use a database called termcap/terminfo that listed the appropriate codes for each terminal
02:12:40 <ais523> this doesn't work in practice because almost every terminal claims to be xterm
02:13:03 <Sgeo> Why don't they claim to be xterm then implement exactly xterm's escapes?
02:14:12 <\oren\_> it's ludicrous. the ones on my page are afaict the lowest common denominator
02:15:04 <ais523> Sgeo: apparently the xterm devs bitch about this
02:15:16 <ais523> complaining that so many emulators don't implement all the codes they're supposed to
02:15:25 <ais523> most likely, it's a case of stopping development when things seem to be working
02:16:15 <Sgeo> Why don't they not claim to be xterm then? Or is it a Mozilla UA fiasco again where everything only works with "xterm"?
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02:19:55 <fizzie> "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/48.0.2564.82 Safari/537.36"
02:20:01 <fizzie> So much of that is complete nonsense.
02:20:54 <\oren\_> WTF make up your mind as to what you are?!
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02:22:02 <ais523> Sgeo: they dont want to deploy their own termcap databases
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02:23:06 <\oren\_> who in their right mind would?!!?
02:23:16 <fizzie> \oren\_: Well, Microsoft Edge on desktop sends "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; <64-bit tags>) AppleWebKit/<WebKit Rev> (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/<Chrome Rev> Safari/<WebKit Rev> Edge/<EdgeHTML Rev>.<Windows Build>".
02:23:28 <fizzie> That's the same lies as Chrome + Edge/X tagged on the end.
02:24:18 <fizzie> At least Chrome uses a (fork of) WebKit, unlike Edge.
02:25:52 <\oren\_> hey wait why do I have an underscore
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02:26:22 <ais523> does anyone actually read user agents any more?
02:26:34 <\oren\> who in their right mind would?!!?
02:27:02 <fizzie> I think they still do, at least for old-IE workarounds.
02:27:03 <\oren\> they're nothing but a pack of lies anyway
02:27:41 <ais523> http://webaim.org/blog/user-agent-string-history/
02:27:59 <Sgeo> ais523, that's old, it's gotten worse
02:28:02 <fizzie> That could do with a paragraph about Edge.
02:28:13 <ais523> but I don't have a newer page about it
02:28:20 <ais523> and it's a funny and amusing enough summary as it is
02:28:49 <Sgeo> IE11 pretends not to be MSIE but can be instructed by Microsoft to act like IE9. It can also be instructed to send the IE9 UA but apparently this isn't guaranteed, at least in one case.
02:29:32 <fizzie> I wonder if there's some sort of nominal WebKit/Blink version correspondence mapping that Chrome uses to set the WebKit revision in the UA it advertises.
02:30:09 <ais523> what rendering engine does Opera use nowadays?
02:30:10 <fizzie> At least both my Chrome/47.0.2526.80 and Chrome/48.0.2564.82 say AppleWebKit/537.36.
02:30:22 <Sgeo> Yes, I have seen this happen.
02:30:55 <fizzie> I think Opera's now built on top of Chromium.
02:32:08 <fizzie> "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/28.0.1500.52 Safari/537.36 OPR/15.0.1147.100"
02:32:22 <fizzie> As seen there for Opera 15.
02:33:05 <fizzie> And of course crawler-bots tend to be "Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; <crawler version goes here>)".
02:33:39 <Sgeo> I think there's a Mozilla or Firefox reference in the HTML5 spec somewhere
02:33:57 <\oren\> anyway, I've now added oiomovexy, which is a macro for oiomoveyx
02:34:13 <\oren\> which is also called oiomove
02:34:25 <fizzie> My access.log has 4 visits with the user agent "null".
02:34:34 <ais523> \oren\: does it swap the arguments?
02:34:35 <Sgeo> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/NavigatorID/appCodeName
02:34:59 <Sgeo> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/NavigatorID/appName
02:35:23 <Sgeo> Oh, it's removed from the standards but still in every browser, I guess
02:36:14 <fizzie> ...and 24 requests where the user agent is a perl script that tries to download something that's almost certainly malware.
02:36:23 <\oren\> Note: Do not rely on this property to return a real product name. All browsers return "Mozilla" as the value of this property.
02:37:24 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/dMGV <- nice user agent.
02:37:32 <ais523> occasionally I get browsers that try to load URLs that are on an entirely different site
02:37:40 <fizzie> (It's the part that starts "() ...".)
02:37:40 <ais523> presumably in the hope that my web server has been configured as a proxy for some reason
02:37:49 <ais523> they have http:// and everything
02:38:15 <ais523> also that reminds me a ton of the Shellshock exploit
02:38:49 <ais523> presumably it's hoping to hit a CGI-generated page
02:38:54 <ais523> old-fashioned CGI that is
02:39:04 <ais523> and then have the resulting page run an old verson of bash
02:39:47 <fizzie> There's also one hit from "Cloud mapping experiment. Contact [email address in pdrlabs.net]".
02:41:13 <\oren\> that's why all my cgi is sed or C
02:41:27 <ais523> that's probably one of the experiments that contacts every IPv4 IP to see what happens
02:41:38 <ais523> \oren\: it can still happen with C CGI, if the C happens to run system() (which goes via bash)
02:41:42 <fizzie> Yes, their web page says they're mapping the Internet.
02:42:06 <fizzie> Speaking of IPv4, our home ISP started offering native IPv6 the other day. Feels very futuristic.
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02:44:22 <Sgeo> fizzie, is the download dangerous or just executing the download?
02:44:28 <Sgeo> What's in the image
02:46:59 <fizzie> I wonder. I don't see anything obvious about trying to execute it or anything, just the download bit.
02:47:29 <fizzie> But possibly they wait for a "XSUCCESS!" reply and then send a second request that tries to run it.
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02:50:51 <hppavilion[1]> A programming language where the code is a matrix?
02:58:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quiney]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46254&oldid=39066 * 50.161.94.113 * (-3) ..Why is there a reference to parenthesis in a sea of brackets?
03:00:47 <ais523> right, they're probably testing to see which systems are vulnerable, in the hope of exploiting them later
03:02:45 <\oren\> hmm those image url's don't seem to load
03:04:01 <\oren\> 204.232.209.188 doesn't seem to exist
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04:39:47 <zzo38> Do you know if efficient byte arrays can be implemented in a JavaScript code (with any of the common implementations)?
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04:44:24 <hppavilion[1]> Does anyone 'round these parts know what technique fungot uses to generate sentences?
04:44:24 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: ( if x x disjunct2)) disjunct1) consequent alternative) if condition, then going back and watching old classes
04:44:31 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: what annoys me is that i can't use if as a function
04:44:55 <hppavilion[1]> So it doesn't use IF at all, at least not as a function...
04:45:20 <zzo38> The back cover of this issue of 2600 includes a picture of a Japanese food container labeled "unix ware" on top of a TV set labeled "Color Television TH-2600XE"
04:48:01 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: fizzie knows hth (it's called "n-grams" with variable n, iirc, which is somewhat like markov chains but keeping track of n (-1?) previous words.
04:48:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: What I want to do is take some of the rather well-written Esolangs articles and feed them to a random sentence generator xD
04:48:49 <oerjan> basically there are pregenerated tables of probabilities for each word in a style
04:49:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: oh. you need a rather large "corpus". you'd probably want the _whole_ wiki as one input.
04:50:04 <oerjan> i think there are some pointers in fungot's github
04:50:04 <fungot> oerjan: ( how the fuck is " data" does? i'm not following with all these rxrs... isn't scheme fnord bloated?
04:50:07 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
04:50:26 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'd also like to feed it some REAL language specs
04:50:34 <oerjan> (snip everything from blob, i guess)
04:51:06 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: note, it doesn't actually works with specs. it works with a corpus of examples. and it doesn't split up words.
04:51:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: What do you mean exactly? Why wouldn't it work with specs?
04:52:04 <oerjan> it's essentially a probabilistic FSA, so it cannot handle everything context-free (like, why fungot cannot match brackets)
04:52:04 <fungot> oerjan: pass the variable's name to the argument tuple ( list a)) ( define ( fnord conn nick) language? i didn't do
04:52:57 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well the model generator programs work with examples. i guess you could try to make a model in another way. but it would _still_ be FSA-ish.
04:53:25 <oerjan> fungot: thank you for the demonstration
04:53:25 <fungot> oerjan: will follow the standard idiom won't work with any libc you want to do it. thanks
04:53:43 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I don't want to generate a formal language; I just want it to spit out commands xD
04:54:01 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's basically just a bit more advanced than the "obvious" markov generators.
04:57:51 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: btw the model is not itself in befunge, it's a separate file (or two?) that fungot does lookups in.
04:57:51 <fungot> oerjan: i mean, i think) is just ( define void ( if f f)) if i'm not using zsh, you can use
04:59:08 <oerjan> also, i think fizzie had a perl version of the lookup program, or something. one that also matched brackets, or something.
05:00:04 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: for the wiki, there's also the problem of splitting things nicely into sentences for analysis. that's the reason fungot's wikipedia style uses talk pages instead of actual articles.
05:00:57 <oerjan> and that some other styles have abrupt endings
05:01:01 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: would look nice anyways
05:01:33 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: various :) the one that comes to mind), then i removed the first to
05:02:08 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: so generic-room serves no purpose other than to the prototype-based oo of ecma-script
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05:06:57 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: fungot's commands do, but not the babble.
05:06:57 <fungot> oerjan: why do you keep asking me stuff like that... manifest meaning having been made much easier by the assertion), rather than just define it
05:07:39 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I think I'll make a random generator for EF
05:07:53 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: oh hm no, i checked, it does respond.
05:08:36 <oerjan> you may, however, have hit fungot's babble limit.
05:08:36 <fungot> oerjan: obviously i had drunk too much coffee or 2) they're too conservative. :)
05:08:50 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i had fnord. the guile manual just mentions the idea of
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05:16:43 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: you're always talking about making things...where do you keep all the code?
05:17:02 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: On my computer, githubbing the good stuff
05:17:45 <hppavilion[1]> Nothing can ever keep my attention for too long; I've started hundreds of little and large projects.
05:18:30 <oerjan> the latest xkcd doesn't seem to reach his usual standards of destruction
05:26:24 <oerjan> yes, what does he mean by letting most of humanity survive like that
05:27:06 <oerjan> on the bright side, it's the second week in a row. maybe he's reducing standards to increas volume.
05:27:38 * oerjan looks suspiciously at his keyboard.
05:27:49 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I submitted what I think was a pretty good question a while ago
05:28:15 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose it was a bit advanced though; not something one can just work out on a sheet of paper.
05:58:05 <quintopia> can someone explain to me why this sed command isn't matching anything in the file, even though regex tester confirms the regex matches at least one line?
06:02:03 <pikhq> Huh, I'm at a loss.
06:02:36 <\oren\> hmm, I'm not sure what elese I should put in oio.h
06:03:23 <\oren\> well, ncurses has a lot of helpers for drawing various graphics, I guess I can add some of that
06:04:39 <\oren\> like using ▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█ to graph an array of integers
06:05:06 <\oren\> actually, that doesn't require any ncurses like stuff anyway
06:05:40 <\oren\> also, s/integers/numbers/
06:06:55 <oerjan> quintopia: wrong regexp style, you want at least \+
06:08:07 <pikhq> Oh right, sed takes *basic* regexes!
06:08:20 <pikhq> POSIX basic regexes don't include \+.
06:08:37 <pikhq> Do include \{1,\} though.
06:08:46 <oerjan> um \+ worked fine for me.
06:08:56 <oerjan> (i only tested that, not the rest)
06:09:12 <pikhq> oerjan: That's a GNU extension.
06:09:28 <pikhq> Which POSIX *permits* but doesn't specify.
06:10:44 <pikhq> POSIX also doesn't specify \s, the POSIXly correct version would be: sed -n '/^[a-zA-Z]\{1,\}[[:space:]].*/p'
06:11:06 <pikhq> Or, sed -n '/^[[:alpha:]]\{1,\}[[:space:]].*/p'
06:13:17 <oerjan> quintopia: adding -r might help instead
06:13:45 * oerjan honestly has no clue about the variations among non-perlish regexps
06:13:52 <oerjan> quintopia: extended regexps
06:14:28 <pikhq> And that's not POSIX. (sadly)
06:14:41 <pikhq> (I don't even know why, POSIX *specifies* extended regexps!)
06:14:52 <pikhq> oerjan: Basic is the weird one, basically.
06:16:02 <quintopia> pikhq: sed understands \s at least. the \+ worked
06:16:14 <pikhq> quintopia: Both are GNU extensions, not POSIX. :)
06:16:44 <pikhq> Though, lots of stuff relies on them.
06:32:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm pretty sure that's unethical hth
06:33:09 -!- oerjan has set topic: Go tromp! | The international hub for magic gathering and deployment. | Effi's finest fluffy waffles | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/ | This part of the topic was mungled in 2016.
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06:34:10 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: slinging fᵫtuses around is not generally accepted behavior
06:34:48 <oerjan> i hear in parts of america it may get you killed hth
06:36:14 -!- oerjan has set topic: Go tromp et al.! | The international hub for magic gathering and deployment. | Effi's finest fluffy waffles | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/ | This part of the topic was mungled in 2016.
06:36:35 <oerjan> i guess it was a team effort
06:38:18 <oerjan> http://tromp.github.io/go/legal.html
06:40:11 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Wait, is tromp_'s last name actually tromp?
06:41:26 <zzo38> It says "John Tromp" if the WHOIS command is used
06:41:30 <zzo38> Therefore, I would think so
06:41:42 <oerjan> it tromps most other names
06:42:24 <oerjan> i think i may have got a new favorite pun victim.
06:43:37 <zzo38> I would now want reviews for Magic: the Puzzling: Codex.
06:47:26 <hppavilion[1]> Shutting down the channel now, we're through here.
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07:00:30 <oerjan> something with strange square boxes in
07:00:52 <\oren\> nope, its the first 15 digits of pi!
07:01:32 <\oren\> if your font supports the block characters properly that is!
07:01:38 <oerjan> hmph, i would have recognized that if i could actually see all chars properly </snotty>
07:04:14 <oerjan> i think lambdabot had some graphing function but i have no idea how to find it.
07:04:30 <\oren\> http://ctrlv.in/701168
07:04:55 <oerjan> and it may have been something someone temporarily coded up, anyway.
07:05:15 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
07:05:54 <oerjan> it's probably in L.hs somewhere. i just don't remember where to browse that.
07:06:08 <lambdabot> pretty <expr>. Display haskell code in a pretty-printed manner
07:06:14 <\oren\> ▂ ▅█ █▅ ▅████ █▂█ █▂ █ ██▅
07:06:14 <\oren\> █▂█▂██▅█████████▅████▅██████▅███
07:08:39 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/grph.htm
07:10:23 <\oren\> that's the program I used
07:14:55 <\oren\> ▇▇▇▇▆▆▅▄▄▃▁ ▁▃▄▄▅▆▆▇▇▇▇▇▇▇▆▆▅▄▄▃▁
07:14:58 <\oren\> ████████████▇▆▅▃▂▁ ▁▂▃▅▆▇███████████████████████▇▆▅▃▂▁
07:15:02 <\oren\> ███████████████████▇▆▄▃▃▂▁▁ ▁▁▂▃▃▄▆▇█████████████████████████████████████▇
07:17:19 <\oren\> hmm unison font supports these pretty well too
07:17:41 <\oren\> oerjan: what backward font are you using?
07:19:18 <\oren\> oh, I see. poor oerjan
07:19:36 <oerjan> i'm not a font-maniac like the rest of this channel hth
07:20:35 <oerjan> although for the last one the bigger problem is that irssi wraps.
07:33:57 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Do it in binary and it might actually mean something.
07:34:25 <hppavilion[1]> I don't know, maybe it'll help towards discovering new pimes.
07:35:25 <hppavilion[1]> Which would, of course, contribute towards discovering new primes
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07:51:53 <\oren\> █████▇▇▇▇▆▆▅▅▄▄▃▂▂▁ ▁▂▂▃▄▄▅▅▆▆▇▇▇▇████ 1.000000
07:51:57 <\oren\> █████████████████████▇▆▆▅▄▃▂▂▁ ▁▂▂▃▄▅▆▆▇████████████████████
07:52:01 <\oren\> ████████████████████████████████▇▆▆▅▄▄▃▃▂▂▁▁▁▁ ▁▁▁▁▂▂▃▃▄▄▅▆▆▇███████████████████████████████ -1.000000
07:52:07 <\oren\> I modified it to add a scale to the side
07:53:18 <\oren\> █ ▅█▃█ ▅ ▅ ▃█ 9.000000
07:53:18 <\oren\> ▃ ▅█ █▅ ▅████ █▃█ █▃ █ ██▅
07:53:19 <\oren\> █▃█▃██▅█████████▅████▅██████▅███ 0.000000
08:01:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[THRAT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46255&oldid=46252 * Oerjan * (+3) Undo revision 46252 by [[Special:Contributions/50.152.193.163|50.152.193.163]] ([[User talk:50.152.193.163|talk]]) I find no evidence of this claim.
08:02:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: discovering new primes is easy. the hard part is finding _all_ of them.
08:03:33 <hppavilion[1]> Someone should make a language called Sea of Brackets
08:14:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Minebit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46256&oldid=46253 * Oerjan * (+47) unsigned begone
08:14:31 <hppavilion[1]> myname: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges
08:16:56 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> How about a non-isolating programming language? <-- see Perligata
08:18:37 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: If it can note that you should sign your comments with ~~~~, why can't it just autosign your comments with ~~~~?
08:19:28 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: because your edit might not be a complete comment
08:20:10 <oerjan> also, ask whoever made mediawiki. i'm sure they could have handled it better.
08:20:14 <hppavilion[1]> But it can detect if you didn't sign your edit with ~~~~ when you should have
08:20:50 <oerjan> there's probably a plugin for it.
08:21:57 <oerjan> ask fizzie to enable it hth
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09:07:32 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, /maybe/ it makes sense as a format for executables?
09:11:37 <zzo38> Use what you prefer
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09:26:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Celerition * New user account
09:27:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BadScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46257 * Celerition * (+15) Created page with "This is a stub."
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09:43:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BadScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46258&oldid=46257 * Celerition * (+104)
09:51:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BadScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46259&oldid=46258 * Celerition * (+152)
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10:13:53 <zemhill> Celerition: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
10:13:53 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
10:14:19 <EgoBot> 56 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>.---.+++++++..+++.>++. [228]
10:14:35 <Celerition> !bf ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>.---.+++++++..+++.>++.
10:17:59 <Celerition> !bf -[--->+<]>-----.++.---------.>+[--->++<]>.---------.++++++.------------.+[->++++<]>.+++.-[->+++<]>-.[--->+<]>----.----.+++++.+++[->+++<]>.+++++++++++++.---------.------.-[------>+<]>-.-[----->++<]>-.+[-->+<]>++.---[->+++<]>+.[->+++++<]>-.++[->+++<]>+.++++++++.------.+++++.-------.-[--->+<]>--.+++++[->+++<]>.---------..-[->+++<]>-.>++++++++++.++[++++>---<]>+.+++++.------.+++++.++[----->++<]>.+++.-[->+++<]>.++++++++++++.------
10:18:00 <EgoBot> PRIVMSG #esoteric:I'm going off. \ JOIN #fr
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10:46:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BadScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46262&oldid=46261 * Celerition * (-35)
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11:11:29 <boily> good Phantom_Hoovorning.
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13:07:53 <mroman> aw firefox you gotta be fucking kidding me :(
13:08:16 <mroman> my parent element has font-size 18px
13:08:25 <mroman> code { font-size: inherit; }
13:08:39 <mroman> but firefox manages to compute that code should be displayed in 12px font
13:08:50 <mroman> this is like basic stuff :(
13:11:11 <mroman> font-size: 1em; doesn't work either
13:13:38 <myname> does font-size: 1em make sense?
13:15:15 <mroman> it sometimes works as a hack
13:15:23 <mroman> but font-size: 100%; works neither
13:15:43 <mroman> maybe it's some weird settings on this machine
13:16:41 <mroman> I guess i'll just switch to using IE
13:20:11 <mroman> http://i.imgur.com/bCAMGni.png
13:20:22 <mroman> ^- main (parent of pre) has computed font-size 18px
13:20:38 <mroman> pre (child of main) has font-size: 100%; but computed font-size is 12px
13:27:10 <mroman> let me see if I can reproduce this in a simple html file :)
13:29:44 <mroman> http://codepad.org/vrSs25pC
13:29:51 <mroman> can any of you guys reproduce that?
13:30:05 <mroman> just look at the computed sizes for body and pre
13:30:18 <mroman> the computed sizes of pre should be the same as those for body since pre should inherit the size from body
13:30:24 <mroman> but it doesn't inherit it properly on my firefox
13:45:13 <int-e> the height is mismatched, but <pre style="font-size: 1em"> produces the same font size
13:46:01 <int-e> what does font-size: 1em mean anyway...
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13:58:54 <int-e> mroman: check edit -> preferences -> fonts and colors -> advanced and note that "monospace" has a smaller default size than the other fonts (16 vs 12); that corresponds to your observed difference
14:03:09 <int-e> (but I don't know *why* that default size is smaller... if you find a reference for that I'd be interested, but not interested enough to search for it myself)
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14:32:06 <fizzie> I looked up a couple of source code references, but none of them have seen fit to put in comments as to why it's like that.
14:33:19 <fizzie> "The basic argument goes that your prefrerred serif font can be relatively larger to your preferred sans-serif font for example." https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=84398
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15:42:15 <mroman> int-e: but I can't set font-sizes for specific fonts through CSS?
15:42:39 <mroman> also... shouldn't the font-size apply to whatever font currently is used?
15:48:22 <fizzie> It does, there's just a "thing".
15:49:00 <fizzie> If you do "font-family: monospace,monospace;" on at least Chrome (I think also on Firefox) you'll get the logical sort of behavior.
15:49:50 <fizzie> Yeah, also on Firefox (well, Iceweasel).
15:50:00 <fizzie> http://code.stephenmorley.org/html-and-css/fixing-browsers-broken-monospace-font-handling/
15:50:05 <fizzie> It's just general stupidity.
15:50:27 <fizzie> But you can see how it looks "too big" (like, objectively) when you don't do the mangling.
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15:53:44 <mroman> well it's wider than non-monospace font
15:54:55 <fizzie> On my fonts, it's also taller for the lowercase letters, which is the main thing.
15:55:09 <fizzie> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/font-size-adjust
15:55:35 <fizzie> Defined in CSS 2.0, dropped in CSS 2.1, defined again in CSS 3 and implemented by almost nobody.
15:56:18 <fizzie> https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/fonts.html#propdef-font-size-adjust has fancy sample images and all.
15:57:58 <mroman> but if the parent element has it's font-size defined in px it behaves differently again
15:59:44 <mroman> I can see that it somehow makes sense that browsers do this
16:00:07 <mroman> different fonts look different for different font-sizes
16:00:26 <mroman> so having a reference default font-size for different fonts kinda makes sense
16:00:41 <mroman> that way a user can choose what default font-size pre should have
16:01:28 <impomatic_> Fonts are bugging me at the moment :-(
16:01:28 <mroman> it just looks a bit off if you use it inline :)
16:01:45 <mroman> because then suddenly that thing in <code> is only half as high as the rest of the text
16:02:23 <mroman> but I'll use tho double monospace hack for this then
16:02:33 <impomatic_> My main content and sidebar use the same font size. The text renders the same size on Chrome for Windows, but the sidebar text is bigger than the main text on Chrome for Android :-( http://corewar.co.uk
16:03:05 <fizzie> https://googledrive.com/host/0B4J9OAzXNfZAQy1NWEVHUURaVmM on my browser -- the 13px monospace looks much closer to the 16px proportional than the "same size" 16px monospace does. (The difference isn't quite as dramatic on whatever fonts and defaults Iceweasel happens to go with, where the monospace indeed looks a bit "too small".)
16:04:20 <fizzie> https://googledrive.com/host/0B4J9OAzXNfZAeGQzbHduMG1CajQ -- yeah, on that thing it looks more than a bit too small.
16:06:12 <fizzie> It does 16/12 by default (instead of Chrome's 16/13) and manages to have a much "larger-looking" proportional font.
16:10:29 <mroman> your monospace font isn't as wide as mine :)
16:12:40 <fizzie> impomatic_: That's weird.
16:13:21 <fizzie> Also weird: Chrome's remote inspector window for a page in an Android device lacks the "computed" tab for styles.
16:20:14 <fizzie> FWIW, the sizes are identical (but the page overall doesn't look too good) if the sidebar is also position: absolute;.
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16:22:31 <fizzie> (Because it will drop out of the body max-width and #content background in that case.)
16:24:13 <impomatic_> stack overflow said I can fix it by putting "max-height: 999999px;" on everything :-)
16:26:52 <fizzie> I don't really do webdev; I'm sure there's some reasonable-looking CSS'es that would render nicely, but I don't know what they are. (Though having a @media-query rules that would just not use a sidebar at all on "narrow" devices might be worth it even if you can get the sidebar to work. It's a bit unwiedly as-is on a phone.)
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16:32:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Quiney]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46263 * 50.161.94.113 * (+100) /* Working on an interpreter. */ new section
16:40:50 <mroman> I don't do webdev professionally
16:40:56 <mroman> because I'd suck at that.
16:41:04 <mroman> I prefer very simple designs
16:41:06 <Taneb> I changed the CSS on my esolangs page recently
16:41:21 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/exps/1.html <- designs like that
16:42:15 <mroman> but there are some ingenious CSS hacks around there
16:42:24 <mroman> you can completely reorder/rearrange tables with CSS
16:44:26 <mroman> there's js on your esolangs page though
16:44:59 <impomatic_> mroman: that design looks nice and clean
16:47:41 <mroman> It looks pretty crappy on a standard installation of IE though :D
16:47:56 <mroman> at least in my opinion
16:48:07 <mroman> but that's only because it has a sucky default font set
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16:48:20 <mroman> and a very small font-size
16:48:28 <mroman> I'm using 18px as my default font-size in Firefox
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16:49:38 <mroman> I don't know but I'm having trouble reading font-sizes such as 12,13px on LCD screens
16:50:12 <mroman> and IE's font rendering generally looks a bit smudged/blurry around the edges
16:53:03 <mroman> IE has no font size setting o_O
16:53:09 <mroman> probably uses some windows setting then
17:09:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Quiney]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46264&oldid=46263 * 50.161.94.113 * (+2179) An interpreter!
17:10:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Quiney]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46265&oldid=46264 * 50.161.94.113 * (-15)
17:15:03 <myname> http://llvm.moe/ because.
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17:31:55 <\oren\> myname: lol, it's a moe compiler development book
17:34:42 <\oren\> what other kinds of graphs should my grph command support?
17:36:12 <\oren\> Maybe labelled bar graphs?
17:39:12 <\oren\> horizontal graphs is probably a good idea
17:46:31 <\oren\> OOH! 2-dimensional scatterplots using the braille characters!
17:56:39 <\oren\> well, horizontal is kinda working, but I should add zebra striping
18:00:49 <J_Arcane> speaking of compiler books, anyone have some good suggestions for non-C books about building compilers.
18:01:17 <J_Arcane> I am currently oppressed by a mad plan, and it involves me being on the other side of knowing how to write one.
18:04:09 <myname> depending on the level, how about the dragon book?
18:05:54 <J_Arcane> I thought the dragon book was in C?
18:06:40 <myname> as far as i know, it is not really bound to any language
18:09:50 <Taneb> J_Arcane, there's a book I'm borrowing, which I've forgotten the name of, that I believe does it in C and Haskell
18:10:07 <J_Arcane> myname: I may've had a wrong impression then.
18:11:49 <J_Arcane> Taneb: Cool. I've been impressed thus far with the stuff I have read about language implementation in ML-family langs. I did at one point try to work through the first few chapters of Write Yourself a Scheme but I didn't have enough Haskell skills to get much out of it.
18:13:03 <myname> it's really not that hard
18:13:20 <myname> we wrote a compiler at university
18:15:25 <fizzie> \oren\: 5-level 2D heatmaps with " ░▒▓█".
18:15:42 <Taneb> Sometimes I have to take a step back and realise that a) I'm implementing insertion sort, b) I'm doing it in Agda, and c) I've spent over an hour trying to prove that ¬ (A <= B) => B <= A
18:17:07 <\oren\> New Hampshire polling data
18:17:53 <\oren\> fizzie: good idea, heatmaps
18:19:04 <fizzie> You can also do double-dense horizontal with the quadrants, though you couldn't have labels for them like that.
18:19:32 <fizzie> And the horizontal resolution would be worse.
18:19:37 <Taneb> fizzie, might be useful for comparing two sets of data
18:20:07 <myname> Taneb: truth tables aren't THAT hard
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18:20:39 <Taneb> myname, <= is less than or equals, not reverse implication
18:20:52 <fizzie> Our compiler course used that book where the compiled language is called "MiniJava", and is really silly.
18:21:02 <fizzie> "System.out.println" is a single lexical token in it.
18:21:40 <myname> fizzie: well, in most languages it is called something like print
18:22:28 <fizzie> Yeah, but the MiniJava language wasn't really all that Java-like (no objects or anything), it just copied "surface forms" like that.
18:22:32 <fizzie> http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Compiler-Implementation-Andrew-Appel/dp/052182060X <- I think it's this one.
18:24:33 <fizzie> http://www.cambridge.org/us/features/052182060X/grammar.html -- hmm, that looks otherwise familiar, except it does have some sort of classes and inheritance.
18:24:49 <fizzie> Maybe I'm remembering that part wrong.
18:25:26 <fizzie> It does have the System.out.println thing, and the other thing where it's still "public static void main" even though public, static and void have no independent meaning.
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18:29:57 <myname> so it is basically C that looks like java?
18:38:23 <Taneb> J_Arcane, the book is called "Implementing Programming Languages"
18:42:54 <J_Arcane> fizzie: Hmm, I think the ML version of that book is one of the ones I was looking at.
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19:52:50 <\oren\> this program doesn't do labeling, I did that with paste.
19:53:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FISHQ9+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46266 * Erinius * (+4402) Created page with "'''FISHQ9+''' is a simple interpreted language created by combining the functionality of [[Deadfish]] and [[HQ9+]]. FISHQ9+ has complete backwards compatibility with deadfish..."
19:54:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FISHQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46267&oldid=46266 * Erinius * (+0) Fixed categories
19:55:33 <myname> what's up with these "i mix up useless languages and call it a day" people?
19:55:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46268&oldid=46241 * Erinius * (+14) /* F */
19:57:25 <FireFly> myname: yes, basically C tha looks like Java.
19:58:00 <FireFly> We used the same language (with some minor changes) for the compiler course I took
19:58:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46269&oldid=46246 * Erinius * (+14)
20:01:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46270&oldid=46269 * Erinius * (+58) /* General languages */
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20:02:19 <ais523> myname: it doesn't even increment the accumulator :-(
20:02:33 <ais523> what does + do in that language?
20:03:01 <ais523> right, + is just an alias for i
20:03:09 <myname> ais523: the most useless one is a mixup of brainfuck and hq9+ where the + operator of hq9+ is not present
20:03:10 <ais523> this means it's not useless, which misses half the point of HQ9+
20:03:22 <ais523> that's not useless, it embeds bf
20:03:42 <ais523> it's pointless, rather than useless
20:03:50 <myname> well, it still is more hq9 and bf rather than hq9+ and bf
20:04:18 <ais523> let me think about how I'd mix HQ9+ and BF if I wanted to do it properly
20:04:46 <ais523> I guess I'd try to move in the golfing language direction
20:04:57 <ais523> use BF's 8 characters, encoded as octal digits
20:05:15 <ais523> then have hello-worldy, quiny, etc. behaviour on invalid programs
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20:06:50 <myname> if i wouldn't always mess up the wiki syntax for talk pages, i'd complain there
20:07:22 <myname> but then again, he probably wouldnkt even read that
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20:21:51 <\oren\> `1234567890-=][oiytrewqasdfghjkl;'/.,mnbvcxz
20:22:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/1234567890-=][oiytrewqasdfghjkl;'/.,mnbvcxz: No such file or directory
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20:58:58 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `help: not found
20:59:00 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:59:36 <\oren\> `fetch http://www.orenwatson.be/grph.c
20:59:38 <HackEgo> 2016-01-23 20:59:37 URL:http://www.orenwatson.be/grph.c [1835/1835] -> "grph.c" [1]
20:59:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `gcc: not found
21:00:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `cc: not found
21:00:11 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:5: error: expected ‘=’, ‘,’, ‘;’, ‘asm’ or ‘__attribute__’ before ‘.’ token \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
21:00:14 <fizzie> Or cc, for that matter.
21:00:29 <fizzie> Also remember you won't get multiple lines of output.
21:01:17 <\oren\> `` ./grph <<<"0 1 2 3 4"
21:01:29 <\oren\> `` ./grph -h 1 <<<"0 1 2 3 4"
21:01:40 <\oren\> `` ./grph 1 <<<"0 1 2 3 4"
21:02:06 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e 's/int h = 3/int h = 1/' grph.c
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21:02:23 <fizzie> `` gcc grph.c -o bin/grph
21:02:59 <fizzie> Although for even more HackEgo compatibility, you might make it (or a wrapper script) take inputs from the command line.
21:03:20 <\oren\> `` ./grph -z 1 <<<"0 1 2 3 4"
21:03:20 <HackEgo> [32m [31m▂[32m▄[31m▆[32m█[0m
21:03:27 <\oren\> `` ./grph -zc <<<"0 1 2 3 4"
21:03:28 <HackEgo> [44m[32m [31m [32m [31m▂[32m█[0m \ [44m[32m [31m [32m▄[31m█[32m█[0m \ [44m[32m [31m▆[32m█[31m█[32m█[0m
21:03:37 <\oren\> `` grph -zc <<<"0 1 2 3 4"
21:03:37 <HackEgo> [44m[32m [31m▂[32m▄[31m▆[32m█[0m
21:04:12 <\oren\> `` grph -c <<<"0 1 2 3 4"
21:04:20 <\oren\> `` grph -cl <<<"0 1 2 3 4"
21:04:20 <HackEgo> [44m ▂▄▆█[0m 4.000000 0.000000
21:04:34 <\oren\> options seem to work ok
21:04:54 <fizzie> The colors might be more portable with mIRC-style ^c escapes.
21:07:12 <\oren\> the blue color is mainly to show where the top and bottom of the graph is
21:07:32 <\oren\> the red and green show the bounda between values
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21:08:39 <fizzie> Yes, it's very festive.
21:08:45 <fizzie> Although the holiday season is already over.
21:12:35 <fizzie> `` printf 'they \x033,2go \x035like \x033this\x03 -- that is to say, byte 03 followed by decimal "F" or "F,B" for foreground or foreground/background colors, with a somewhat different color palette, and a plain \\x03 without digits to reset.'
21:12:35 <HackEgo> they go like this -- that is to say, byte 03 followed by decimal "F" or "F,B" for foreground or foreground/background colors, with a somewhat different color palette, and a plain \x03 without digits to reset.
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21:13:57 <FireFly> It's also worth mentioning that the control bytes are mnemonic: ^Color, ^Original, etc
21:14:22 <fizzie> Yes. (So ^o also resets the color, among other formatting.)
21:16:03 <\oren\> but it appears that hackego alread translates ANSI to mIRC colors
21:17:05 <fizzie> Something else along the way from HackEgo might, but HackEgo doesn't.
21:17:32 <fizzie> They're ANSI escapes in my client logs.
21:17:37 <\oren\> wait, irssi jsut lets ANSI sequences through?!?!
21:17:55 <fizzie> I seem to recall it has a whitelist.
21:19:05 <\oren\> `` printf '\e[Afoo\e[Bbar'
21:19:40 <fizzie> Or possibly even, instead of passing them through, it might've parsed them into some intermediate form, and then back again to ANSI escapes by the text frontend.
21:19:46 <FireFly> \oren\: yes, I believe irssi accepts both mIRC and ANSI escape sequences
21:19:54 <FireFly> It looks very messy for me in weechat FWIW
21:20:11 <\oren\> `` printf 'foo\e[Dbar'
21:20:13 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/2016-01-23_222003.png
21:20:44 <\oren\> `` printf 'foo\e[38,126mbar'
21:20:54 <\oren\> `` printf 'foo\x33[38,126mbar'
21:21:02 <FireFly> Don't you want a semicolon rather than comma?
21:21:08 <\oren\> `` printf 'foo\e[38;126mbar'
21:21:10 <fizzie> Yes, the strip_codes function just parses them into a thing.
21:21:19 <fizzie> It also has a 24-bit truecolor escape code, which I didn't know about.
21:21:31 <\oren\> `` printf 'foo\e[3mbar'
21:21:51 <\oren\> `` printf 'foo\e[7mbar'
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21:22:10 <\oren\> `` printf 'foo\e[7;1;42mbar'
21:22:20 <\oren\> `` printf 'foo\e[7;1;42;30mbar'
21:22:29 <\oren\> `` printf 'foo\e[7;1;32;40mbar'
21:22:42 <\oren\> `` printf 'foo\e[7;32;40mbar'
21:22:53 <FireFly> fizzie: yeah, the 24-bit one is from Konsole I believe, but has become rather popular nowadays
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21:25:28 <\oren\> `` printf 'foo\e[38;2;0;191;255mbar'
21:25:48 <fizzie> FireFly: I mean, yes, terminals have that, but irssi also has an irssi-specific format for that, \x04#<something>.
21:26:09 <\oren\> either irssi or my teminal doesn't have the ansi 24 bit sequence
21:26:28 <fizzie> I don't think it supports the escape sequence form.
21:26:39 <fizzie> Though I didn't read get_ansi_color that closely.
21:27:04 <fizzie> The custom one is only compiled in if TERM_TRUECOLOR is set, which seems to need a not-on-by-default --enable-true-color to configure.
21:27:06 <\oren\> `` printf 'foo\e[38;5;88mbar'
21:27:26 <\oren\> `` printf 'foo\e[48;5;88mbar'
21:27:50 <\oren\> `` printf 'foo\e[5mbar'
21:28:02 <\oren\> `` printf 'foo\e[6mbar'
21:28:07 <J_Arcane> goddammitalltohell, I hate when I do that. Always bookmark a link you want to see again.
21:28:32 <\oren\> I always bookmark or download
21:28:45 <fizzie> Oh, it does support the escape form too, but that also needs the TERM_TRUECOLOR flag on.
21:28:55 <fizzie> The blinking works fine for me, incidentally.
21:29:01 <fizzie> Well, "fine" is maybe not the right word.
21:29:04 <J_Arcane> I found a book on writing compilers in F# the other night, and now I can't find it again.
21:29:16 <J_Arcane> I miss full-text history searching. :(
21:29:28 <fizzie> They're all decomposed to irssi's own flags (GUI_PRINT_FLAG_BLINK and so on), so it's not just passing escape codes through.
21:30:05 <hppavilion[1]> J_Arcane: If you do find it, could you send me the linky?
21:32:29 <J_Arcane> Hah! Found it. Retracing my steps found this: http://www.itu.dk/~sestoft/plc/
21:35:14 <J_Arcane> I also discovered the full text of Bornat's "Understanding and Writing Compilers: A do-it-yourself guide" from 1977. It's in BCPL!
21:37:02 <fizzie> Hm. It's supposed to read 24-bit colors in all cases and interpolate (with quite a lot of code, in fact) back to the 256-color format. But I can't make that work.
21:38:04 <fizzie> Oh well. I'm using this rxvt-unicode anyway, and it does the 88-color thing, which always confuses everything.
21:38:48 <J_Arcane> BCPL is officially 50 years old this year.
21:38:59 -!- impomatic_ has quit (Quit: http://corewar.co.uk).
21:39:13 <oerjan> before c's parent language
21:41:16 <J_Arcane> https://projects.exeter.ac.uk/BCPL/WindowsBCPL.htm
21:42:15 <oerjan> i think the neighbors are partying about twice a week.
21:44:41 <oerjan> i think there are no files in the channel. unless someone smuggled one in with a cake.
21:46:03 <oerjan> that file looks suspiciously like a swatter
21:46:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:49:08 <ais523> fizzie: I'm not aware of any terminal emulator but Konsole that does 24-bit color
21:49:14 <ais523> and actually renders it as such
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21:51:57 <\oren\> yay I won a tournamant in angry birds
21:53:00 <mauris> > (\d -> text [" ▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█" !! (round ((x - m) / (maximum d - m) * 8)) | let m = minimum d, x <- d]) $ map (cos.(/2)) [0..32]
21:53:32 <mauris> > (\d -> text [" ▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█" !! (round ((x - m) / (maximum d - m) * 8)) | let m = minimum d, x <- d]) $ map (^2) [0..32]
21:54:01 <oerjan> darn int-e is probably not here
21:55:18 <\oren\> Ok so my terminal only supports the 38;5;Nm sequence
21:55:23 <fizzie> ais523: https://gist.github.com/XVilka/8346728#now-supporting-truecolour lists 8 + everything on libvte since 0.36.
21:56:07 <oerjan> @ask int-e does lambdabot have a permanent function for single line function graphs or was that just something someone made on the fly
21:56:32 <fizzie> I can verify that at least 'st' does; don't know of the rest.
21:56:45 <\oren\> liars! mintty doens't support 38;2;R;G;B!
21:57:10 <fizzie> I kind of considered switching to st, but it's got that "recompile it to configure" thing, and I'd rather install it from the Debian package.
21:57:11 <\oren\> at least, not on windows
21:58:01 <fizzie> Also it doesn't support at all the "make 'bold' stuff just bright, don't switch to a bold font" option, which I've already gotten quite used to.
21:58:42 <\oren\> even putty supports that iirc
21:59:02 <fizzie> rxvt-unicode "supports" it by letting you explicitly define the font used for bold.
21:59:51 <fizzie> Wonder if fontconfig can do per-program rules. It's complicated enough to make that a possibility.
22:01:03 <fizzie> Well, there's the FONTCONFIG_FILE envvar.
22:01:08 <fizzie> Gets a bit complicated that way.
22:02:09 <fizzie> Also the "light gray" color is too bright, and they don't believe in resources, just in a config.h.
22:03:57 <fizzie> Truecolor in a terminal looks weird anyway. Like if you had a black-and-white comic and then some parts were in color.
22:04:53 <\oren\> that's really common though
22:05:12 <\oren\> most comics have a color part in the first few pages
22:05:43 <\oren\> or sometimes just the first page
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22:06:25 <fizzie> I meant more like within an otherwise black-and-white panel.
22:06:36 <fizzie> Gah, these colors look so garish.
22:06:55 <ais523> fizzie: xkcd does that sometimes, it doesn't look too bad
22:07:39 <fizzie> And the block-drawing characters don't form solid surfaces, there are thin lines showing the character cells.
22:08:08 <\oren\> well that's partially dependent on your font
22:08:28 <fizzie> Yes, but the same font works just fine in rxvt-unicode.
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22:10:07 <\oren\> urgh. sounds like they haven't done much UAT
22:11:35 <FireFly> <fizzie> ais523: https://gist.github.com/XVilka/8346728#now-supporting-truecolour lists 8 + everything on libvte since 0.36. ← also anything based on libvterm (which is basically pangoterm and neovim's built-in terminal, AFAIK), and ToaruOS's terminal emulator
22:12:18 <ais523> what about PuTTY? thats a big one
22:12:37 <ais523> there's a list of terminals that don't too
22:12:52 <fizzie> https://googledrive.com/host/0B4J9OAzXNfZAWnRpMTBfV0JEUE0
22:12:54 <\oren\> nope. although pietty supports the 38;5;Nm
22:13:30 <int-e> oerjan: that looked like self-contained code to me, fwiw
22:13:59 <ais523> also I assume there's no way to write a truecolor code that will be ignored by all commonly used terminals that don't support it?
22:14:08 <ais523> the colons version of the code might work for that I guess
22:14:24 <fizzie> Maybe, but the colons version seems less supported as well.
22:14:37 <FireFly> If anything, then it'd be the colon version I think
22:14:39 <oerjan> int-e: not what mauris did, something i remember from earlier
22:15:08 <oerjan> it had lines not blocks
22:15:11 <\oren\> fizzie: duuuude you have a ginormous monitor
22:15:28 <fizzie> It's just 1920 by 1200, that's not big these days.
22:16:08 <fizzie> They're selling 3840x2160 ones now.
22:16:22 <FireFly> I have a line-plot thingy in J using braille
22:16:38 <\oren\> well it looks big on my 1366x768
22:17:04 <int-e> oerjan: doesn't ring a bell
22:17:09 <FireFly> [ plot sin i:4j80 NB. does this work?
22:17:10 <j-bot> FireFly: |value error: sin
22:17:10 <j-bot> FireFly: | plot sin i:4j80
22:17:16 <FireFly> [ plot 1&o. i:4j80 NB. does this work?
22:17:17 <j-bot> FireFly: ⠢⢄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⠤⠔⠒⠉⠉⠉⠉⠑⠒⠤⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀
22:17:17 <j-bot> FireFly: ⠀⠀⠈⠑⠢⢄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡠⠒⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠒⠤⣀⠀⠀
22:17:17 <j-bot> FireFly: ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠑⠢⠤⣀⣀⣀⣀⡠⠤⠒⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠒
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22:17:41 <fizzie> I think it's a bit sad that they went all 16:9 instead of 16:10, because 16:10 lets you have a full-width 16:9 video + some space left over for controls.
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22:19:29 <fizzie> FireFly: I guess the argument is that you won't keep the controls visible all the time anyway, because they'd be distracting, so if they need to be auto-hide anyway, they can just be on top.
22:20:45 <j-bot> tswett: ⠢⢄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⠤⠔⠒⠉⠉⠉⠉⠑⠒⠤⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀
22:20:45 <j-bot> tswett: ⠀⠀⠈⠑⠢⢄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡠⠒⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠒⠤⣀⠀⠀
22:20:45 <j-bot> tswett: ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠑⠢⠤⣀⣀⣀⣀⡠⠤⠒⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠒
22:20:58 <j-bot> tswett: ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⣀⠤⠤⠔⠒⠒⠊⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉
22:20:58 <j-bot> tswett: ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣀⡠⠤⠒⠒⠉⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀
22:20:58 <j-bot> tswett: ⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⠤⠤⠤⠒⠒⠊⠉⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀
22:21:12 <j-bot> tswett: ⠀⠠⢁⠀⢀⠡⠀⠀⠒⠀⠀⠊⠀⠀⡈⡀⠀⠈⠂⠀⠐⠁⠀⠠⢁⠀⢀⠡⠀⠀⠑⠀⠀⠊⠀⠀⠌⡀⠀⠈
22:21:12 <j-bot> tswett: ⠀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡀⠐⠀⠂⠠⠀⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠁⠠⠀⠂⠐⠀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡀⠐⠀⠄⠠⠀⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠁
22:21:12 <j-bot> tswett: ⢄⠀⠀⢁⠂⠀⢀⠄⠀⠠⡀⠀⠐⡈⠀⠈⡐⠀⠀⡠⠀⠀⢄⠀⠀⢁⠁⠀⢀⠄⠀⠠⠄⠀⠐⡈⠀⠈⡐⠀
22:21:30 <zzo38> Still I think it would help to have a separate space for the OSD so that it does not overlap the movie picture
22:21:32 <j-bot> FireFly: _4 _3.9 _3.8 _3.7 _3.6 _3.5 _3.4 _3.3 _3.2 _3.1 _3 _2.9 _2.8 _2.7 _2.6 _2.5 _2.4 _2.3 _2.2 _2.1 _2 _1.9 _1.8 _1.7 _1.6 _1.5 _1.4 _1.3 _1.2 _1.1 _1 _0.9 _0.8 _0.7 _0.6 _0.5 _0.4 _0.3 _0.2 _0.1 0 0.1 0.2 0.3 0.4 0.5 0.6 0.7 0.8 0.9 1 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6 1.7 1.8 1.9 2 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4 2.5 2.6 2.7 2.8 2.9 3 3.1 3.2 3.3 3.4 3.5 3.6 3.7 3.8 3.9 4
22:21:36 <j-bot> tswett: ⠂⠁⠁⠁⠁⠂⠄⠀⠀⠀⠠⠐⠐⠈⠈⠈⠐⠠⢀⠀⠀⠀⡀⠄⠂⠁⠁⠁⠂⠄⡀⠀⠀⢀⠠⠐⠈⠈⠈⠐
22:21:36 <j-bot> tswett: ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢁⠒⡈⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡐⠢⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⠡⠌⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀
22:21:36 <j-bot> tswett: ⠠⢀⢀⢀⠠⠐⠈⠀⠀⠀⠁⠂⠄⡀⡀⡀⠄⠂⠁⠀⠀⠈⠐⠠⢀⢀⢀⠠⠠⠐⠀⠀⠀⠀⠂⠄⡀⡀⡀⡀
22:21:39 <FireFly> Might help to see what's happening
22:22:00 <FireFly> i:4 is _4 _3 _2 _1 0 1 2 3 4
22:22:35 <FireFly> bit hacky, but if the parameter is complex then the imaginary part gives the #elements to use instead of the default amount
22:22:37 <tswett> So what number do you have to choose so that it makes one phith of a full circle each time?
22:23:06 <j-bot> tswett: ⠢⠤⠤⣀⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⣀⠤⠤⠔⠒⠒⠊⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠑⠒⠒⠢⠤⠤⣀⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀
22:23:06 <j-bot> tswett: ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠉⠒⠒⠤⢄⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣀⡠⠤⠒⠒⠉⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠉⠒⠢⠤⢄⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀
22:23:06 <j-bot> tswett: ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠉⠑⠒⠒⠤⠤⠤⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⠤⠤⠤⠒⠒⠊⠉⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠉⠑⠒⠒
22:23:25 <tswett> Well... that looks kind of interesting.
22:23:47 <mauris> i can't see anything :(
22:23:58 <\oren\> needs to have vertical lines
22:24:04 <fizzie> It's braille -- maybe try touching your screen?
22:24:14 <FireFly> \oren\: right.. never bothered with that :\
22:24:30 <tswett> This j-bot functionality should be perfect for people like mauris who can't see anything!
22:24:39 <\oren\> mauris: try using a font that has braille
22:26:28 <zzo38> Which aspect ratios do you think I should need to be supported in Digi-RGB? At first I had only 4:3 and 16:9 but now I can think also to include 5:4 and 16:10 as well; do you expect that is sufficient?
22:27:11 <zzo38> A new kind of video interface connection
22:27:12 <\oren\> er, no wait, it's falling back. uh...
22:28:25 <FireFly> zzo38: what is it meant for?
22:28:38 <FireFly> what are the design goals? it's hard to answer your question without knowing
22:30:06 <zzo38> The design goal is to be simple and one-way communications for digital RGB signal; the signal is four red, four green, four blue, one clock, one sync, and each pixel is two clock cycles. Electrical specification and physical specification are not yet written though, only the data is. It is meant to be alternative of VGA and HDMI and DisplayPort (because HDMI is stupid)
22:32:03 <FireFly> Hmm, well it's probably good to include 5:4 and 16:10
22:32:12 * oerjan suddenly realizes someone might think the channel topic refers to a misspelled candidate
22:33:29 <zzo38> There is also Digi-RGB-Plus which adds stereo analog audio and one reverse signal for commands, but it is a requirement that you can use a cable between Digi-RGB and Digi-RGB-Plus in both ways and that it is still guaranteed to work if the command signal is not used or if some commands are not implemented.
22:33:49 <int-e> oerjan: well, it doesn't say "Tromp for president!" ... yet!
22:35:05 <int-e> The depressing files were not so popular, I guess.
22:35:23 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes but do you expect these four aspect ratios are sufficient?
22:36:31 <FireFly> Probably. At least, I can't think of any other common aspect ratio off the top of my head
22:36:40 <FireFly> At least for desktop/laptop use
22:36:57 <FireFly> With portable game consoles/phones I imagine it could vary a bit more
22:37:06 <zzo38> It could be used with television as well as computer
22:43:58 <fizzie> The DCI 2K/4K movie standards have an 256:135 aspect ratio (4096x2160 for the 4K variant), but I don't know if that's very relevant for monitors. I did some with that resolution for sale, though.
22:44:58 <zzo38> For simplicity I do not want to add too many aspect ratios, and anyways the picture could be letterboxed if necessary.
22:46:09 <tswett> Use "end of row" and "end of frame" markers in order to support any aspect ratio!
22:46:12 <tswett> NB: may be a bad idea.
22:46:21 <zzo38> In addition, some aspect ratios cannot be added, because it is necessary for each aspect ratio to have a different squarefree core.
22:47:21 <zzo38> The "end of frame" marker already exist it is what I called the "sync" signal above
22:51:32 <tswett> I just thought of the perfect response to mauris.
22:51:48 <tswett> "It's Braille; I don't understand the problem."
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23:07:43 <zzo38> Do you do Magic: the Puzzling? I hope you do, because I would need help with the codex
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23:17:12 * oerjan briefly imagines trump vs. sanders
23:22:09 <ais523> oerjan: the possibility of that is definitely significantly nonzero
23:22:29 <ais523> however, that doesn't mean it's all that high
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23:27:49 <\oren\> Trump vs. sanders would be the most ideologically polarized election since like, i dunno... did Hitler even run against a communist?
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23:28:37 <tswett> Huh. Opal Titan as printed says it activates whenever an opponent "successfully casts a creature spell".
23:28:51 <tswett> Which raises the obvious question of what "successfully casts" means.
23:29:46 <tswett> Like, what does "successfully throw a ball at Tom's head" mean? Does it merely mean that you've succeeded in thrown the ball, or does it mean you've actually hit Tom's head?
23:29:54 <zzo38> I think "successfully cast" is the last step of casting a spell
23:30:01 <tswett> The answer, it turns out, is that "successfully casts" means "casts".
23:30:54 <\oren\> so it activates even if the played creature is immediately removed from the game?
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23:31:29 <tswett> It activates even if the opponent somehow loses the game immediately after casting the spell.
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23:32:58 <ais523> can we construct a circumstance in which casting a spell causes a player to lose the game?
23:33:11 <ais523> actually it's easy, you cast a spell where you pay life as an additional or alternative cost
23:33:23 <ais523> you pay /all/ of it and then lose as an SBA just after it finishes casting
23:34:06 <tswett> Now, state-based actions are faster than the enstacking of triggered abilities, right?
23:36:03 <ais523> I think they're slower, but am not sure if there's ever a situation where it matters
23:36:19 <ais523> you don't have abilities that say "whenever a player casts a spell, as long as this ability is on the stack, players don't lost the game for having 0 or less life"
23:36:41 <ais523> mostly because most players wouldn't understand them
23:40:59 <\oren\> when I played Magic in middle school, we used a literal stack of instant cards
23:45:02 <\oren\> and occasionally when a creature card's ability was played we pu that whole creature card on the stack
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00:19:38 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsq9s6_qPKU
00:22:48 <\oren\> why the hell is the color "snow" slightly red?
00:24:42 <\oren\> real snow is, if anything, slightly BLUE!
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00:50:25 -!- hardmath123 has left ("So long, and thanks for all the fish.").
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00:55:03 <fizzie> \oren\: Depends on how much BLOOD there is in it.
00:55:28 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAAAA THE X11 DEVS MURDERED SOMEONE!
00:57:10 <fizzie> The one with a similarly slight blue tint seems to be "ghost white", which is a bit ominous as well.
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01:00:07 <fizzie> According to the nice, long answer at http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/72919/what-are-the-origins-of-rgb-txt snow was added in X11R4, and there are some notes on where the color values came from, but nothing particular about snow.
01:05:03 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watermelon_snow
01:07:30 <fizzie> Don't eat the pink snow.
01:07:38 <coppro> does there exist a non-shitty ime on linux
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01:30:03 <zzo38> I think I may have once made up the custom card like that where that state based action doesn't apply while it is on the stack; I don't know if I put it into the computer yet
01:36:03 <zzo38> Endurance Lights {1} Artifact ;; Flash ;; You don't lose the game due to having zero or less life while there are any objects on the stack.
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02:17:58 <adu> is anyone else in here in a cold place?
02:22:07 <lambdabot> EGLL 240150Z AUTO 19008KT 9000 OVC004 09/08 Q1026 TEMPO SCT004 BKN006
02:22:10 <shachaf> I guess that's not that cold.
02:25:33 <adu> There is about 4 feet of snow here
02:26:01 <adu> but at least I have internet :)
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02:41:25 <lambdabot> CYYZ 240200Z 35008KT 15SM SKC M08/M11 A3004 RMK SLP187
02:42:28 <adu> \oren\: Toronto is pretty cold
02:42:42 <adu> I went to Canada for a week
02:43:01 <adu> it was a cold week
02:43:11 <\oren\> I went to CYYB for christmas
02:43:18 <lambdabot> CYYB 240200Z 33003KT 15SM SKC M18/M19 A2997 RMK SLP187
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02:43:37 <\oren\> it was a warm christmas though
02:43:38 <adu> are these lattitude/longitudes?
02:44:06 <adu> I thought airport codes were 3 letters
02:44:08 <\oren\> CYYZ = toronto pearson airport
02:44:15 <\oren\> the international ones are 4
02:44:27 <adu> ah, then I'm a stupid American
02:45:01 <shachaf> I don't think it's specifically about being international.
02:45:23 <coppro> IATA codes are four. ICAO are three
02:45:32 <coppro> in Canada, IATA is usually just C+ICAO
02:46:22 <coppro> IATA is a trade association of airlines. ICAO is the governing body
02:47:55 <FireFly> I think outside of METAR I've mostly seen the three-letter ones actually
02:48:16 <FireFly> I've certainly seen ARN more than ESSA for Arlanda
02:48:23 <shachaf> TLV is easier to remember than LLBG
02:48:50 <shachaf> The Amerikan ones are easy to remember because you just add a K
02:49:58 <adu> I've also been to Narita/Tokyo (NRT) and Kansai/Osaka (KIX)
02:50:40 <adu> both, in Japan, obviously
02:52:13 <FireFly> The only airport outside of Europe that I've flown to would be Newark, which is apparently EWR
02:52:19 <FireFly> I need to see more of the world..
02:53:16 <shachaf> Newark is a little scow to get to from NYC
02:53:27 <shachaf> Well, they all are, when you're going to Manhattan or the Bronx.
02:53:41 <FireFly> We took one of them shuttle busses to grand central IIRC
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02:54:27 <shachaf> I guess it's not that bad.
02:57:19 <FireFly> Oh, I didn't realise there were trains to/from EWR.. makes sense though
02:57:48 <shachaf> It goes to Penn station in Manhattan
02:58:00 <shachaf> Not to be confused with Newark Penn Station
02:58:23 <shachaf> Which isn't to be confused with Newark Liberty Internation Airport station
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03:09:10 <lambdabot> CYVR 240300Z 24005KT 15SM FEW008 BKN016 BKN150 07/06 A2985 RMK SF1SC5AC1 SLP111
03:10:06 <zzo38> It is the airport close to where I am at.
03:14:20 <lambdabot> ESSB 240250Z AUTO 26008KT 4100 BR OVC003/// M01/M02 Q1020
03:14:33 <FireFly> It's probably too close to the city to be very cold
03:16:06 <shachaf> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4813
03:16:16 <zzo38> SELECT "DATA" FROM "METAR" WHERE "AIRPORT" = 'CYVR' ORDER BY "TIMESTAMP" DESC LIMIT 1; -- They ough to add into SQLite the support of virtual table consuming LIMIT/OFFSET clauses!!!
03:30:39 <Sgeo_> Is that distinct from a view?
03:30:55 <shachaf> Sgeo_: http://store.steampowered.com/app/286160/ hth
03:31:50 <zzo38> Yes, a virtual table is something like a foreign view implemented as an extension, although not quite
03:32:05 <Sgeo_> Seems a bit expensive? Although I guess you can play games for real. Needs VR support. Oh, and I just got the joke
03:33:17 <zzo38> It is distinct from a view though.
03:33:18 <Sgeo_> A chess program that lets you play any physically realizable chess variation seems interesting though
03:36:04 <Sgeo_> Hmm, maybe it is actually worthwhile
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04:15:54 <\oren\> Sgeo_: hmm, the easiest way to do that would just to have pieces movable with the mouse, and a chat screen, with no programmatic enforcesment of rules.
04:16:14 <Sgeo_> \oren\, that's exactly what shachaf linked
04:21:32 <zzo38> I would want to be able to moves entered by keyboard and to support hidden information and random too, which may require a few more programming, but still you do not necessarily have to program all of the rules of the game.
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04:31:49 <zzo38> Some chess variants can use hidden and random and cards and so on, but, even if the game uses dice does not necessarily mean it is random, such as 123456 Chess is using dice without random.
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04:44:22 <\oren\> I just bought Kerbal Space Program
04:46:29 -!- mauris has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:46:43 <MDream> Get ready to build the things.
04:48:28 <\oren\> "I'm Gene Kerman Flight Director" --- iii see what you did there...
04:49:47 <\oren\> the head of science is "Wernher von Kerman"
04:52:36 <zzo38> http://play.chessvariants.com/pbm/play.php?game=123456%2520Chess&log=maeko-makov333-2009-359-344&submit=View&orientation=fixed&scale=100&render=table&shape=square&set=alfaerie-many&colors=339933+CCCC11+22BB22 If the king is moving to b8, then the dice on d8 can be captured by rook and moved to f7, which is forcing to jump. I don't know if there is a good move though
04:52:55 <zzo38> http://play.chessvariants.com/pbm/play.php?game=123456%2520Chess&log=nwolff-cvgameroom-2011-95-172&submit=View&orientation=fixed&scale=100&render=table&shape=square&set=alfaerie-many&colors=339933+CCCC11+22BB22 How do you expect to continue the game?
04:58:02 <\oren\> one of my pilots "Valentina Kerman"
05:01:55 <\oren\> ok, i fired the engine and the paracute at the same time but it went ok
05:02:35 <\oren\> as in noone died and I reached 500 m altitude
05:17:55 <\oren\> ok now how the fuck am I supposed to get back down from outside the atmosphere
05:18:17 <\oren\> this guy's gonna starve isn't he
05:19:41 <\oren\> oh, I'm pointed right at the sun
05:20:03 <\oren\> nvm I'm only going 1 km/s
05:24:24 <\oren\> i'm pretty sure the heat shild won't work if i go in nost-first
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06:26:26 <\oren\> ok, now I've gotten out of the atmosphere in a craft i'm pretty sure won't blow up
06:27:37 <\oren\> on the other hand there are lots of other ways my pilot could die
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10:07:11 <zzo38> JavaScript might be a improve kind of programming language if with macros included such as: macro ptr(x) {* ({ get: () => (x) , put: #x => (x=#x) }) *};
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11:12:50 <J_Arcane> I believe there's a library for that.
11:18:35 <\oren\> yeah, let's detach the booster then fire it, that'll work
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13:44:55 <lambdabot> ENRO 241320Z AUTO VRB02KT 9999NDV -SHSN BKN034/// OVC046/// M10/M11 Q1015
13:45:04 <lambdabot> ENVA 241320Z 05003KT 360V090 9999 BKN028 M00/M01 Q1016 TEMPO BKN014 RMK WIND 670FT VRB02KT
13:52:14 <lambdabot> EGBB 241320Z 21007KT 180V240 9999 BKN009 13/13 Q1024
13:53:56 <oerjan> europe, great britain, birming*mumble*
13:54:13 <oerjan> (the britain is in the G)
13:54:35 <oerjan> possibly it means all of UK
13:54:47 <oerjan> but that's my mnemonic
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13:56:22 <oerjan> wtf is edinburgh EGPH and a small nowhere airport is EGED
13:56:49 <oerjan> "Eday Airport (IATA: EOI, ICAO: EGED) is located on Eday in Orkney, Scotland. As it is close to the Bay of London it is known locally as London Airport."
13:57:55 <ais523> clearly we need to find an airport in Thule :-D
13:58:32 <oerjan> "Thule Air Base or Thule Air Base/Pituffik Airport (IATA: THU, ICAO: BGTL), is the United States Air Force's northernmost base, located ..."
13:59:10 * oerjan is not sure what ais523 meant
14:01:04 <oerjan> hm norwegian and english wikipedia disagree on the ICAO for Nuuk, Greenland
14:01:17 <ais523> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule
14:01:29 <ais523> it's my favourite bit of esogeography
14:01:54 <ais523> it was historically considered part of the general Britain area, and is known to be to the north of Great Britain
14:01:59 <ais523> but there's conflicting reports as to where it actually is
14:02:15 <ais523> thus it's a known landmass but we're not actually sure which one
14:02:33 <ais523> the leading theory IIRC is that it's a mistaken interpretation of Norway as an island
14:03:06 <ais523> although mine is that, given that navigation wasn't very good at the time, that multiple different landmasses were reached by different people who went out in that direction, and incorrectly believed to be the same
14:03:28 <oerjan> you have to travel pretty far north to prove that scandinavia _isn't_ an island
14:04:55 <ais523> it could also reasonably be Iceland, which is in approximately the right place
14:05:12 <ais523> hmm, it's interesting to think back on the days when people didn't have the accurate navigation we do nowadays
14:05:23 <ais523> and might genuinely be unable to explain just where a country is, having found it
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14:16:34 <oerjan> hm right, no good longitude
14:17:39 <oerjan> apparently i've never edited norwegian wikipedia logged in before.
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14:20:45 <oerjan> don't worry, it's a subtle word
14:21:11 <Taneb> Subtler than Google Translate can handle, evidently
14:21:19 <oerjan> i think you can technically use "hvor", but you sound archaic.
14:22:49 <Taneb> I, archaic? Forsooth, thine accusatory manner betrays mine heart
14:23:45 <oerjan> although "hvor" is right if you are completing it to a subordinate sentence
14:24:05 <oerjan> i would answer, but i can think only of "prithee"
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14:25:30 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, there's a similar thing with greek accounts of 'the tin isles' somewhere in the north atlantic that nobody's conclusively identified
14:26:38 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: my immediate thought is the south-west of England
14:28:15 <Phantom_Hoover> it's an obvious candidate but the classical sources explicitly and separately identify britain
14:28:47 <oerjan> i thought one theory of why the bronze age ended was that they ran out of tin. so there probably weren't that many tin mines around...
14:29:13 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: Scilly, perhaps?
14:30:10 <Taneb> Could have been a trade port
14:30:18 <oerjan> it's just a scilly little island
14:30:36 <Taneb> oerjan: a whole bunch of scilly little islands
14:30:42 <Taneb> There's like loads of them
14:31:22 <oerjan> oh apparently it's even pronounced that way
14:31:37 <Taneb> And they have found Bronze Age Phoenician artefacts in Cornwall, suggesting there was trade there
14:33:32 <oerjan> it's crazy how complicatedd europe's geography is compared to much of the rest of the world
14:34:17 <oerjan> like africa, just a big lump.
14:35:07 <oerjan> i guess south-east asia competes.
14:35:27 <fizzie> What I think is a bit strange is how island-deficit many coastlines are, compared to something like https://goo.gl/maps/tEtWcUQJrN52
14:42:48 <int-e> I imagine there's a lot more erosion above the water than below
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15:48:03 <Taneb> Thinking about my bike again
15:48:11 <Taneb> The lock broke so I can't unlock it
15:48:24 <Taneb> It's been in the same place since July I think
15:49:55 <Taneb> Really need to figure out who the right person is to talk to so someone can go with a pair of bolt cutters and rescue it for me
15:50:40 <Taneb> ....what's tromp_ going?
15:53:29 <oerjan> Taneb: http://tromp.github.io/go/legal.html
16:02:49 <ais523> Taneb: I'm surprised the bike is still there in that case
16:03:03 <Taneb> I check it every now and then
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16:10:02 <quintopia> "One odd thing in Britain is how people call each other 'mate' instead of taking AR15s and demanding the government cede you public property." -Zach Weinersmith
16:10:50 <ais523> in most parts of the UK, leave a bicycle with no locks, if it's obvious it'll be stolen within the week, if it's not obvious that it's an unlocked bicycle it might last a few months
16:11:13 <ais523> OTOH, if there is an effective lock there, it's unlikely to be stolen (but it might be removed by the owner of the land it's locked on after a while)
16:11:24 <ais523> this is because most bicycle thieves are opportunistic and only go after easy targets
16:15:12 <quintopia> huh...we have more tenacious bike thieves I think.
16:19:30 <mauris> bike thieves are very tenacious here too, scary stuff
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16:20:59 <mauris> pervasive, too; people even got their bikes stolen in the peaceful rich-snobs neighboorhood i went to secondary school in
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16:22:16 <ais523> being in a rich neighbourhood doesn't help much against thieves
16:22:23 <ais523> it can even hurt to some extent (as there's more stuff to steal)
16:27:00 <Taneb> ais523, my bike is locked
16:27:09 <Taneb> Just the lock won't unlock
16:27:46 <ais523> I'd have expected it to be removed by the landowner by now
16:28:26 <Taneb> ais523, the landowner in this case is a university
16:28:28 <ais523> actually there's a process for abandoned cars in the UK where the council/police put a notice on it saying that the car's considered abandoned and threatening to remove it after X days
16:28:36 <ais523> but I don't think that applies for bikes
16:28:48 <Taneb> Heading out now, though
16:29:00 <ais523> Taneb: I know our university has lots of warnings about removing bikes, I don't know if it actually does or the warnings are just bluffs
16:30:59 * ais523 tries to work out if there are any other possibiliites
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16:32:40 <mauris> oh yeah my uni tags bikes with little "hi your bike has been here for weeks, we're gonna move it if you don't" things
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17:19:24 <fizzie> Ours did a bike cleaning thing near the student housing about once a year, or maybe every other year.
17:20:15 <fizzie> Adding "we'll move this unless you remove this card" cards first, then a month or so later moving all the flagged ones into some storage somewhere, and then maybe half a year later getting rid of them.
17:20:42 <fizzie> I think in collaboration with some bike shop, who took care of storing the bikes and then doing whatever they wanted with the unclaimed ones.
17:22:20 <fizzie> And we did the same for stuff in the bike storage rooms of our apartment building in Finland at least once or twice.
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17:52:03 <izabera> so you can just put a fake card on other people's bike and they get taken away?
17:54:18 <FireFly> Well, not for the bike-owner of course
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18:11:47 <fizzie> I guess, if you know when the collection will happen, and manage to put the card on the bike right before so that the owner doesn't see it.
18:11:56 <fizzie> I seriously don't think that has ever been a problem.
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18:57:12 <mroman> http://designs.mroman.ch/
18:57:16 <mroman> I'm in the webdesign business now! :D
18:57:19 <myname> how many binary tries with n leafs are there?
18:57:42 <\oren\> ok, that was too many boosters
18:58:46 <mroman> how many binary trees with n leafs?
18:59:00 <mroman> permutations of binary trees?
19:00:16 <mroman> how many binary SEARCH trees with n leafs exist
19:00:19 <mroman> that's more interesting
19:00:25 <mroman> because then you can't just take the permutations
19:00:38 <myname> it doesn't apply to my problem, though
19:01:09 <mroman> 1,2,3 doesn't have 6 search trees I guess
19:01:23 <tswett> What distinguishes a binary trie from just a binary tree, for counting purposes?
19:01:31 <mroman> it's either 1,2,3 or 2,1,2
19:03:35 <myname> i thought it might be equivalent to valid parantheses with a given depth
19:04:15 <myname> like, abcd could be (((ab)c)d), ((ab)(cd)) or (a(b(cd)))
19:04:50 <myname> at which point the elements could be pretty much ignored
19:06:18 <mroman> every binary tree has a level order traversal
19:06:28 <mroman> which produces a flat list of elements
19:06:35 <mroman> and you can just permute that list
19:06:41 <mroman> and each will be a valid binary tree.
19:06:55 <\oren\> HA! the astronaut did not die this time!
19:07:29 <\oren\> well, not on liftoff, anyway
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19:49:31 <\oren\> ok as it turns out firing a rocket backward is a perfectly doable method of atmospheric reentry
19:49:46 <ais523> \oren\: some practical rockets work like that actually
19:49:55 <ais523> e.g. the "landing on the Moon" part of the original moon missions
19:50:01 <ais523> (they used a different method to land on the Earth at the end)
19:58:30 <\oren\> oh, right, but I though that wouldn't work in an atmosphere
20:09:09 <MDude> I wonder what the tensile strength of silicon nanotubes is compared to carbon nanotubes.
20:10:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[M×N-Dimensional Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46271 * Qpliu * (+1385) Created page with "M×N-Dimensional Brainfuck is a [[brainfuck]] derivative with an M-dimensional tape and an N-dimensional program. The initial pointer direction is positive in the first dimen..."
20:10:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46272&oldid=46268 * Qpliu * (+33) /* M */
20:15:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Blo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46273&oldid=45870 * Qpliu * (+32) Push-down automata
20:29:46 <myname> what is a good source for english sentences without much filtering?
20:30:17 <ais523> myname: you mean, for use for doing statistics on English or the like?
20:30:20 <ais523> you might want to ask fizzie
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20:35:23 <mauris> the obvious answer is probably project gutenberg! but maybe you could apply for http://www.natcorp.ox.ac.uk/
20:35:37 <myname> like, a normal wikipedia dump has too much noise
20:35:49 <mauris> i did that once and got rejected (probably because i didn't fill in a phone number though)
20:37:05 <mauris> what do they gain from making their thing "free, but behind some annoying registration/application red tape"
20:37:29 <mauris> do they just wanna save bandwidth and have only people who Really Need It download the BNC
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20:55:00 <tswett> \oren\: isn't atmospheric braking a lot easier, though?
20:55:09 <tswett> The thing about rockets is that they're a terrible way to do space flight.
20:55:29 <tswett> The only reason we use them is that there are currently no alternatives.
20:56:10 <tswett> Rockets are a terrible way to speed up, but we don't have any other way to speed up, so we use rockets to speed up.
20:56:25 <tswett> Rockets are a terrible way to slow down, and we *do* have another way to slow down, so we use the other way instead.
20:58:27 <\oren\> well I haent unlocked a good enough aerobaking system
20:59:20 <\oren\> also, I just launched my first successful unmanned probe
20:59:52 <\oren\> it got into space, but fell back down and crashed right after
21:01:08 <\oren\> I got a lot of science out of it though
21:01:48 <tswett> I just applied to download the BNC. I gave a phone number.
21:10:04 <\oren\> this time I think I'll be able to get this stupid sphere into the ocean and retreieve it
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21:16:35 <\oren\> at what point does "altitude" become "distance from Earth"
21:17:27 <FireFly> Well hey, you can into space which is the important part
21:18:14 <\oren\> ooh, my probe will come down on an ice sheet, I should be able to get some science out of that!
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21:23:02 <fizzie> myname: If you want something easily available, and don't need gigantic amounts, http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/download.html has some moderately sized (e.g. 3M sentences) newspaper text collections, which might be less noisy than the wiki dump.
21:23:11 <fizzie> (Also somewhat pre-filtered webcrawl stuff.)
21:26:06 <fizzie> (And if you want to pay money, there's always LDC.)
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22:42:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46274&oldid=46033 * Luis Mendo * (+43)
22:47:49 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: What's that one really complicated character again?
22:47:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: letters: not found
22:48:43 <\oren\> 檎 is pretty complicated
22:49:07 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: No, the one that looks like 6 or 7 circles with dots and such
22:49:37 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: It's an outdated armaic letter (outdated even when armaic wasn't outdated) or something
22:51:10 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking an ubuntu, but there seems to be more than one kind (kubuntu, xubuntu, þubuntu). Which should I use?
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22:56:47 <hppavilion[1]> What if we were to apply the Principals of Eso to business? What if we were to manage to start /marketing/ esolangs as DSLs?
22:59:59 <mauris> hppavilion[1]: plain old ubuntu is a good start!
23:00:28 <int-e> if you want plain and old, try debian ;)
23:04:16 <fizzie> Hey, you're dissing my OS.
23:04:51 <mauris> hppavilion[1]: do you mean "multiocular o" btw
23:05:17 <int-e> Debian GNU/Linux stretch/sid \n \l
23:05:19 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘etc’Not in scope: ‘issue’
23:05:33 <int-e> err, right, sorry lambdabot!
23:25:12 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/issue: No such file or directory
23:25:29 <HackEgo> No LSB modules are available. \ Distributor ID:Debian \ Description:Debian GNU/Linux \ Release:n/a \ Codename:n/a
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23:38:48 <hppavilion[1]> I'm attempting to write a successor to BANCStar xD
23:39:01 <hppavilion[1]> Something that, as a matter of fact, could be used seriously; but something still esoteric
23:39:18 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically a cross between ASM and Bash for now (ASM with flags, basically)
23:39:39 <hppavilion[1]> I'm contemplating adding redirection for an improved programming experience
23:40:45 <hppavilion[1]> It's called BankQL, which is actually "Bank" followed by a meaningless acronym (though it could be "Query Language", but that makes little sense)
23:42:28 <hppavilion[1]> The idea is that it's nothing like BANCstar, because BANCstar was a bad idea and its creator should be burnt at the stake
23:43:46 <int-e> "All I wanted was job security."
23:45:07 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Though apparently, it was never meant to be written in; it was designed for automated generation
00:19:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46275&oldid=46250 * 89.248.91.5 * (+61) /* Hardware implementations */
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00:46:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minimal-2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46276&oldid=35557 * Codesmith512 * (+129) /* External resources */
00:47:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minimal-2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46277&oldid=46276 * Codesmith512 * (+1) /* External resources */
00:48:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minimal-2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46278&oldid=46277 * Codesmith512 * (-2) /* External resources */
00:48:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minimal-2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46279&oldid=46278 * Codesmith512 * (+15) /* External resources */
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02:30:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Erinius]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46280 * Erinius * (+28) Created page with "My Languages: * [[FISHQ9+]]"
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03:23:06 <HackEgo> [U+03B5 GREEK SMALL LETTER EPSILON]
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03:44:51 <\oren\> @tell hppavilion[1] you meant ꙮ
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03:56:47 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Didn't your nick have two l's at some point?
03:57:08 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Apparently not.
03:57:14 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: It might occasionaly. I can't actualy remember whether to include two or not hallf the time
03:57:24 <lambdabot> \oren\ said 12m 32s ago: you meant ꙮ
03:57:46 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Only time I see it having two l's is when \oren\ said "helloppavillion'
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04:26:32 <hppavilion[1]> MediaWiki needs a portal-specific "Random Page" button
04:36:40 <hppavilion[1]> Also, I think I have probabilistic λ-calculus worked out
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05:06:07 <hppavilion[1]> How could I make λ-calculus with high-level features like IO?
05:10:46 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: uniqueness typing or (dreaded) monad?
05:11:22 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: I was thinking ε-expressions along with λ-expressions
05:11:25 <lifthrasiir> both assumes that you can somehow abstract the world state into a (opaque) value
05:14:53 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: I just added nondeterminism by separating alternative bodies with ? in the definition
05:15:34 <zzo38> I added some command into XISYNTH which is: PART POST
05:20:02 <myname> hppavilion[1]: if you have typed lambda calculus, you could do IO pretty much like haskell
05:29:00 <zzo38> Yes that is one way which is the monad
05:29:15 <zzo38> Other way is also possible
05:31:16 <zzo38> Other way I had is to do a kind of data type like: data X = Out Bool | In X X X | Stop; and then make the lambda calculus format of this type, and you can out one bit, in one bit, in EOF, and it stop the program
05:31:37 <zzo38> If it is lazy then it might work
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05:55:02 <\oren\> holy crap, i never noticed that! Goku rides the golden cloud in a spiral so that centrifugal force keeps him on it!
05:56:03 <myname> because grabity doesn't exist?
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06:14:52 <\oren\> myname: he goes at really high speed,
06:15:08 <\oren\> so wind force would blow him off it
06:32:26 <zzo38> Do you like some of my custom Un-cards of Magic: the Gathering? I have both file, cards and uncards and there are many new ones. Do you like "In A Band With Others"?
06:35:02 <zzo38> In A Band With Others {1W} Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant creature ;; Whenever enchanted creature attacks as part of a band containing additional creatures, its controller must sing a song during the entire duration of the attack. Combat damage is not dealt until song is complete.
06:35:52 <zzo38> Wheel of Hand-cutting {2R} Sorcery ;; Discard your hand, and then draw seven cards. (You cannot draw anything if you do not have a hand to hold the pencil.)
06:36:22 <zzo38> Food of Life {GW} Creature - Food of Life (0/1) ;; Whoever eats this card gains five extra life points.
06:37:22 <zzo38> Archaic Tome {0} Continuous Artifact ;; Use rules of Alpha edition of the game.
06:38:22 <zzo38> Smoke Factory {-} Land ;; Does not provide any mana; just adds smoke into your mana pool.
06:45:33 <oerjan> <myname> how many binary tries with n leafs are there? <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_number
06:45:50 <oerjan> (and yes, it's also that thing with the parentheses)
06:47:51 <oerjan> @tell myname <myname> how many binary tries with n leafs are there? <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_number
06:47:55 <zzo38> O, it look like Catalan numbers are a lot of things
06:48:24 <myname> the internet said, it dependon wether or not the leaves are labeled
06:49:04 <myname> for labeled trees there are "only" fsctorial many
06:49:27 <oerjan> ...that sounds strange.
06:49:51 <zzo38> I think I have seen mention of Catalan numbers in a book once, in a chapter describing Bell numbers
06:49:55 <oerjan> the ordering of the labels gives factorial many, but if you have the structure of the tree as _well_...
06:50:29 <myname> i want to keep the ordering, i guess that's what it means
06:51:39 * oerjan still suspects either the question or the answer got oversimplified somewhere
06:52:23 <oerjan> myname: i don't think "i want to keep the ordering" is precise enough to be a target of "that's what it means" hth
06:52:36 <myname> http://gatecse.in/wiki/Number_of_Binary_trees_possible_with_n_nodes
06:55:59 <oerjan> myname: that's nodes not leaves
06:56:36 <myname> how does that matter, there are a multiple of each other
06:57:08 <oerjan> not if there are nodes with 1 child
06:57:20 <oerjan> which i was ignoring, but i think the first answer allows it
06:58:03 <oerjan> i'm not convinced that answer is right though. argh my brain.
06:59:49 <myname> does the catalan answer allow reordering?
07:01:09 <oerjan> it has no labels to order...
07:02:32 * oerjan decides this is not a good thing to think about when having neck pain.
07:02:48 <myname> shouldn't labeling have _more_ ways then?
07:03:58 <oerjan> it _does_ however distinguish left and right children.
07:04:30 <oerjan> yes, labeling should have more ways.
07:05:09 <oerjan> myname: note that the labeled trees include things like a straight path from a root through as many nodes you wish, to a single leaf. that catalan answer doesn't.
07:06:15 <hppavilion[1]> myname: How about untyped λ-calc IO/nondeterminism/socketry?
07:08:34 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yes, yes. Let the hatred of OO /flow/ through you
07:10:10 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Is there no way to do OO well? If so, why?
07:11:29 <myname> what do you think makes OO useful what functional languages don't already have?
07:12:48 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Well, um, that would be objects. You know, the things with methods and attributes.
07:13:40 <myname> those are horrible. you can't extend these without probably messing things up
07:14:04 <hppavilion[1]> myname: That's a shitty programmer thing, not a problem with objects
07:14:32 <hppavilion[1]> myname: You can do anything with tuples and lists that you can do with objects, yes, but objects make it so much easier
07:15:14 <myname> how is it a shitty programmer thing if i get something from a library which misses one feature which i am unable to extend without messing with someone elses code and their respectable assumptions of the objects they pass around?
07:16:12 <hppavilion[1]> myname: OK, I'm clearly exhausted, because I have no clue what you're saying xD
07:16:37 <myname> let's say you write a library which is awesome
07:17:03 <myname> but i also need some additional methods and attributes
07:17:11 <myname> i am pretty much fucked now
07:18:30 <hppavilion[1]> In python, you can call super().__init__() to subclass with a new initialization
07:18:40 <myname> well, i can, but i have to change _your_ code and have to check anywhere if it does break anything
07:19:21 <hppavilion[1]> It's better to have something with a few flaws that generally makes things easier than to not have it at all
07:20:31 <myname> did you ever do something with a functional language?
07:21:55 <myname> i just love the typeclass system of haskell and the likes
07:22:13 <myname> it's like you can implement interfaces for foreign objects
07:22:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Deviating Percolator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46281&oldid=33301 * Hppavilion1 * (+195) /* "Compliant Interpreters" */ new section
07:43:19 <myname> well, no, real scientists don't need scales
07:44:31 <myname> that would imply you have to deal with... numbers
07:44:52 <myname> who needs those to make science
07:44:53 <izabera> no no you just play with the zoom in your camera
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09:19:57 <hppavilion[1]> 728988259989286329735345815908434974465481009469702340555217695715929148676708799487214724328333663839983488920889151056
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09:37:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46282&oldid=46274 * Luis Mendo * (+112) /* Language specification and compiler */
09:38:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46283&oldid=46282 * Luis Mendo * (-2) /* Language specification and compiler */
09:38:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46284&oldid=46283 * Luis Mendo * (+8) /* Language specification and compiler */
09:38:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46285&oldid=46284 * Luis Mendo * (+2) /* Language specification and compiler */
09:39:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46286&oldid=46285 * Luis Mendo * (+1) /* Language specification and compiler */
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11:26:12 <Taneb> I'm going to have to teach myself topology as well as coding theory and character theory I think
11:43:25 <boily> Tanelle. character theory?
11:43:49 <Taneb> Something to do with group representations
11:43:54 <Taneb> I haven't taught myself it yet
11:47:58 <Taneb> It's used in the classification of finite simple groups
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13:22:26 <quintopia> what i get for not putting in contacts when i wake up
13:34:37 <oerjan> quintopia: you two are like a running gag :P
13:35:18 <Taneb> Assuming that > represents the beard
13:50:33 <quintopia> gags don't work very well when they are running. they sort of need to stay in place.
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14:10:57 <myname> can anybody recommend books or texts on computational linguistics?
14:14:17 <fizzie> Our most related course used this book: C. Manning, H. Schütze, 1999. Foundations of Statistical Natural Language Processing.
14:14:23 <fizzie> I fail to recall if it was any good, though.
14:14:44 <fizzie> I recognize the cover picture, so I must've at least looked at it.
14:16:17 <fizzie> The list of chapters on the book's website -- http://nlp.stanford.edu/fsnlp/ -- makes it look like a reasonable "basics" book.
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14:18:57 <oerjan> Taneb: "->" is from the ancient oklopolitan tribes of finland it means "now i go there" hth
14:19:32 <fizzie> It's called "the magic arrow" ("taikanuoli" in Finnish) hth
14:22:20 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/fVEM hth
14:23:54 <fizzie> There's also a related "->?" symbol for "should we go there now?", which you can then answer affirmatively with ->.
14:45:07 <mroman> but that's probaly more "at the moment"
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14:47:36 <fizzie> Maybe. -> has two primary purposes: to coordinate departures with people you're intending to meet in wherever you're going to, and to indicate that you've left when you were actively participating in a conversation, so that people know not to expect replies. It's rarely that useful to indicate you've returned explicitly -- you can generally just say something.
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15:05:34 <FireFly> mroman: sounds annoying to IRC from the shower
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15:14:54 <oerjan> FireFly: it's an electrifying experience
15:19:05 <myname> quintopia: did you meant to say you can recommend something?
15:26:21 <mroman> latest smartphones are waterproof
15:26:51 <mroman> such as m********** in the shower while watching animated pictures on such devices.
15:27:13 <mroman> or maybe in case you're a professional diver
15:27:19 <mroman> I don't know how good the reception under water is
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15:30:40 <oerjan> @tell mroman blub. blib blub blub!
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17:24:04 <Taneb> I've asked this before, but I can't remember the conclusion
17:24:23 <Taneb> Is it valid for an optimizing brainfuck compiler to optimize "+[]" to ""?
17:24:39 <Taneb> Like, a non-productive infinite loop to the empty program
17:25:19 <zzo38> Maybe it could be an option I suppose
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17:28:26 <Taneb> How about "+[]++++++++++++++++." to "+++++++++++++++++."
17:30:43 <FireFly> Certainly not the second onne
17:31:45 <myname> the first one neither, exiting or not exiting are completely different things
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17:56:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Java2K]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46287&oldid=38707 * 85.179.133.139 * (+9)
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20:06:09 <lambdabot> LOWI 251950Z VRB02KT CAVOK M01/M02 Q1032 NOSIG
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20:29:03 <lambdabot> EGLL 252020Z AUTO 28015KT 9999 BKN025 11/06 Q1022 NOSIG
20:29:20 <fizzie> The winter came and went.
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21:11:30 <hppavilion[1]> Which means that not only is it working without errors (though there are guaranteed errors that I just haven't fixed yet); it is working even in the stage when it should be buggy as shit
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21:55:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[♦]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46288&oldid=37150 * 208.119.144.207 * (+1) Fixed a few grammatical errors
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22:43:45 <lambdabot> CYUL 252200Z 12006KT 15SM BKN038 OVC240 M01/M07 A3017 RMK SC7CI1 SLP221
22:58:39 <lambdabot> KATL 252252Z 18004KT 10SM BKN250 12/M04 A3020 RMK AO2 SLP230 T01221039
22:58:54 <boily> quintopia isn't snow.
22:58:59 <lambdabot> KLGA 252251Z 18006KT 8SM SCT150 OVC250 02/M05 A3029 RMK AO2 SLP255 T00171050 $
22:59:08 <lambdabot> KBOS 252254Z 13008KT 10SM BKN200 01/M03 A3029 RMK AO2 SLP257 T00061033
22:59:29 <lambdabot> KOAK 252253Z 29009KT 10SM SCT026 15/10 A3023 RMK AO2 SLP236 T01500100
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22:59:47 <boily> hellochaf. you obviously aren't snow. you never snow.
23:00:03 <shachaf> boily: I was skiing just last weekend.
23:00:09 <shachaf> Or the one before last. I don't know.
23:01:47 <boily> ok, you don't entirely unsnow.
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23:04:02 <lambdabot> ENVA 252250Z 05005KT 360V090 CAVOK 04/03 Q0993 RMK WIND 670FT 15014KT
23:04:32 <oerjan> there is snow, but it is trying to melt hth
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23:08:11 <shachaf> It's been raining a lot here.
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00:27:09 <hppavilion[1]> I've got a λ-calculus parser up and running, but I'm not sure how to evaluate, or what evaluation would even look like
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00:35:34 <tswett> Find a place where you've got a lambda-function applied to something.
00:35:45 <tswett> Perform alpha-conversion if necessary, then perform beta-reduction.
00:35:59 <tswett> If you can't find such a place, you're done evaluating.
00:36:07 <tswett> 'Course, there are several different evaluation orders you can use...
00:36:58 <fizzie> You should use normal order, because all the others are abnormal.
00:44:00 <hppavilion[1]> A language designed to be archaeologically analyzed
00:45:28 <hppavilion[1]> It would be designed to have a vast, complex syntax and subtle semantics
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00:55:57 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: The /point/ is that it's just released onto the web one day
00:57:38 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: And the people of the world are expected to decrypt the meaning of the language
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00:58:45 <FireFly> You could find a lot of unintentional examples of that if you s/language/bytecode/
00:59:27 <FireFly> That is, you could find examples of undocumented bytecode formats being reverse-engineered. I'm thinking of scripting engines in games mainly
01:01:14 <FireFly> (which, by the way, is pretty fun...)
01:01:14 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: What do you think of the idea though? A diggable language?
01:01:37 <FireFly> I dunno, it sounds a bit weird to intentionally design it for that, but I guess it could work
01:01:40 <hppavilion[1]> Only problem with me doing this is I'm not good at languages I can compile xD
01:02:01 <hppavilion[1]> And it kind of defeats the purpose if you can look at the source
01:02:46 <hppavilion[1]> (though it would make things go faster, as you can check for evilness if it's PD)
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01:20:51 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: The people on ##programming like the idea :)
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02:59:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * YoshikuniJujo * New user account
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03:10:57 <hppavilion[1]> We're having a sudden growth in new user join rate
03:14:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Zot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46289&oldid=31882 * YoshikuniJujo * (+71)
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03:44:48 <lifthrasiir> well, imagine a hoard of users that search "trump" from /list
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05:25:38 <Sgeo_> hppavilion[1], similar to Smalltalk?
05:26:25 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo_: Until somebody solves some complex problem (perhaps producing full, accurate docs?)
05:26:46 <hppavilion[1]> Then they are granted the source, with which they can do as they wish
05:27:17 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo_: It's not a non-FOSS thing, it's a preventing cheating thing
05:27:27 <Sgeo_> Oh, censorship, not inherent
05:28:04 <Sgeo_> I need to not have a fever
05:29:23 <hppavilion[1]> It wouldn't be fun if you could see the source- oh, night
05:29:53 <Sgeo_> Was thinking source doesn'
05:29:59 <Sgeo_> doesn't even exist
05:30:35 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo_: No, the source just isn't provided because otherwise you could look at it and it wouldn't be fun
05:31:55 <hppavilion[1]> I'd like to provide the source, but there's no game if I do
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06:09:54 <adu> hppavilion[1]!
06:10:19 <adu> that's almost my nick
06:12:40 <adu> so if an algorithm is defined in terms of bits, but it's implemented in terms of int64's, is it a bit algorithm, or a word algorithm?
06:12:43 <lifthrasiir> between ] and ! there are a series of tag characters for "IMPLIED GREETING TAG"
06:13:31 <adu> ! not in "that"
06:13:38 <hppavilion[1]> adu: It's a qucomplex (like complex, but qubits instead of bits) algorithm
06:15:05 <adu> here's what I don't get, qubits are 3-states, up, down, and 90 degrees from the pole, but the there are an infinite number of possible states, but only 3 are recognized...
06:16:08 <adu> I think we should start with 7 states 3 above, 3 below, and 1 for the 90 degree state, and then gradually improve with technology
06:16:32 <adu> then we could have 127-qubit processors, then 1024-qubit processors, etc...
06:17:13 <hppavilion[1]> adu: It's 1, 0, or some probabilistic superposition of both
06:17:41 <adu> oh, right, and it's the superposition that can be prime oracle
06:18:17 <adu> There was one guy who spent 10 years building a quantum computer that can factor "15"
06:19:23 <adu> yeah, pretty impressive, but still not hack-the-world level
06:20:15 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I think I just found what is probably the only Wikipedia article with this combination of categories:
06:20:58 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Oh, and the probabilities are apparently complex numbers
06:21:21 <adu> complex numbers are very simple, actually
06:21:30 <adu> it's quaternions that are complex
06:22:45 <adu> do you know my favorite complex number?
06:23:40 <adu> the absolute value is 5
06:24:32 <adu> also, because it's more real than imaginary :)
06:24:32 <myname> well, it's just a pythagorean triple
06:25:57 <adu> my favorite real number would have to be 1.6353244967152763993453446183...
06:26:07 <adu> and my favorite integer is 65536
06:26:19 <myname> https://youtu.be/GO6TsdwxcwM
06:27:06 <myname> also https://youtu.be/ZoT82NDpcvQ
06:28:48 <myname> as you can see in both videos: there are at least 4 interesting states
06:28:49 <adu> 1.635... is the supremum of the interval of convergence of y = x^^y
06:29:17 <adu> so qubits are 5-state?
06:29:40 <myname> well, infinitely many, but how do you come to 5?
06:29:56 <adu> myname: I'm just trying to understand quantum mechanics
06:30:05 <adu> currently, I don't
06:30:12 <myname> take a look at the two videos
06:30:55 <myname> also, there was a neat talk at 32c3
06:30:58 * adu is currently running several computations while watching Continuum, when the episode is over, I'll look at the videos
06:31:46 <myname> the talk from 32c3 is german, though
06:37:54 <adu> hppavilion[1]: the movie?
06:38:27 <adu> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0477051/
06:39:18 <hppavilion[1]> adu: But what's the correspondence between bits and qubits? Do you know?
06:53:12 <myname> qubits collapse to bits
06:53:39 <\oren\> my favorite real number is only hypothetical
06:54:06 <\oren\> it's the unthinkable number closest to 1
06:56:18 <\oren\> unthinkable numbers are those for which no formula could be written, even in theory
06:56:42 <myname> well, it exists in hyperreals
06:58:22 <\oren\> not because the number is infinite or anything, but because the sequence of digits is truly random, and therefore to identify the number requires an infinite amount of information
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06:58:57 <myname> no, you just gave all the information: the smallest positive number
06:59:44 <\oren\> the smallest number such that it is unthinkable
07:00:24 <\oren\> among numbers for which no formula can be written, the one closest to 1
07:01:40 <myname> you don't have to write a formula for a number to exist
07:03:15 <myname> but on the other hand, "the smallest number without a formula" can most likely be expressed as a formula
07:05:47 <myname> my math teacher used to teach us that math is a language
07:06:25 <\oren\> so with for example godel numbering, you can enumerate all formulae for real numbers.
07:06:59 <myname> well, yeah, that's what gödel did, isn't it?
07:07:22 <\oren\> then you find that, although the real numbers are uncountable, the real numbers that can actually be thought of or used are countable!
07:08:34 <adu> \oren\: so it's a real number that is in a neighborhood of 1
07:08:55 <myname> "A The complement of A"
07:09:05 <myname> this book is going to be fun
07:09:39 <\oren\> is there supposed to be a accent on that A?
07:10:00 <myname> i can't see any. may be due to bad scanning
07:11:33 <adu> I see "A The ..."
07:11:54 <adu> and I have unicode fonts
07:12:12 <adu> so if there was something to see, I would see it
07:12:41 <adu> "gödel" comes thru
07:13:00 <myname> what's wrong with gödel
07:13:52 <\oren\> adu: he's saying the book doesn't have the accents, because of some sort of error
07:13:56 <myname> that computational linguistics thingie that was "recommended" here yesterday
07:17:12 <myname> statistical natural language processing
07:24:14 <adu> ᵃᵇ?ᵈᵉ?ᵍʰⁱʲᵏˡᵐⁿᵒᵖ?ʳˢᵗᵘᵛʷˣʸᶻ
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08:40:27 <hppavilion[1]> Does untyped Quantum λ-calculus make any sense? Something with the nice λs so I feel safe reading it? xD
08:41:16 <myname> if all you have is a hammer :p
08:41:51 <mroman> but you may not use this hammer for commercial purposes
08:42:07 <mroman> also you may only use it to hammer in nails produced by $company
08:42:10 <mroman> everything else is illegal
08:42:17 <lambdabot> oerjan said 17h 11m 36s ago: blub. blib blub blub!
08:42:40 <mroman> that would be the case if the hammer were software
08:43:02 <mroman> such licenses should be illegal.
08:43:17 <mroman> If I get a product I should be allowed to use it like I want to
08:43:32 <mroman> (unless I'm using it against other laws such as not killing people)
08:43:43 <mroman> but otherwise I should be allowed to do whatever the fuck I want with it.
08:44:23 <mroman> if a hammer were software people could demand that they get a revenue share of everything you build with that hammer.
08:44:47 <mroman> "Ow see, you built this house with our hammer and that means we now own part of that house because you used our tool to construct it."
08:48:28 <mroman> Nintendo is doing something like that with YouTube revenue :)
08:49:02 <mroman> you gotta share your revenues with Nintendo as soon as you have at least one video in your channel featuring nintendo content.
08:49:23 <mroman> they are going to collect money from people now that advertise your product for free on the internet
08:49:34 <mroman> that's like ... the most capitalist thing ever ...
08:50:52 <mroman> "See, you bought our hammer and teach courses on how to hammer with it to people for money. Since it's our hammer we're entitled that you share your total income with us."
08:51:38 <mroman> where can I lobby against these kind of companies :(
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09:31:16 <fizzie> mroman: You asked whether the microphone in a smartphone works underwater.
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10:14:22 <mroman> sound travels underwater
10:14:35 <mroman> not very good but it travels
10:45:43 <HackEgo> 147) <ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
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11:12:54 <j-bot> Taneb: |value error: help
11:14:03 <Taneb> What's the character for j-bot?
11:14:31 <Taneb> fungot: what's the character for j-bot?
11:14:32 <fungot> Taneb: the latter, usually only way for it to compile!
11:14:49 <Taneb> Thanks, fungot, but that's not quite what I meant
11:14:49 <fungot> Taneb: a good first choice, but i don't use any linux at all. it is _much_ harder than trying to find
11:16:08 <Taneb> ( 4 * log 5 / log 2
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11:55:08 <boily> hellørjan. floating brackets.
11:56:25 <oerjan> helloily. li(ke thi)s?
11:57:09 <boily> . o O ( somebody set us up the bomb! )
11:57:39 <izabera> https://github.com/ryna4c2e/sed-brainfuck https://github.com/svbatalov/bf.sed
11:57:46 <oerjan> @tell mroman mroman said 3h 14m 31s ago: what? <-- blub. you no speak fish?
11:58:18 <boily> izabellora. are you svbatalov?
11:58:24 <oerjan> @tell mroman i've forgotten why i spoke fish, except that there was a good reason. try the logs.
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12:03:51 <izabera> and now there's a sed process that's eating 100% of my cpu trying to sing 100 bottles of beer on the wall
12:05:12 <boily> 100% of cpus on the wall ♪
12:10:42 <izabera> it actually worked, took 7m12.5s but it worked
12:13:29 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SUBCOMPACT CHICKEN).
12:13:45 -!- oerjan has set topic: Go tromp et al.! | The international hub for magic gathering and deployment. | Effi's finest fluffy waffles | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/ | 100% of cpus on the wall ♪.
12:14:47 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
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12:20:48 <oerjan> my left arrow key is lagging too :(
12:22:02 <oerjan> or seemingly missing occasional presses
12:23:46 <fizzie> oerjan: The reason was a discussion on whether smartphone microphones work underwater hth
12:23:56 <fizzie> For fish, not for lagging keys.
12:24:21 <fizzie> (I told this to mroman as well.)
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12:40:00 <lambdabot> [1.0,1.63,2.21751106303051,2.95480183600564,4.23615968785223,7.9224695022536...
12:45:04 <oerjan> this doesn't work and i have no idea what adu meant
12:49:23 <oerjan> @tell adu the weirdness of qubits is such that the answer to how many states they have is either (a) 2, like ordinary bits; or (b) that's meaningless, you cannot think of the global quantum state as separated into the individual qubits.
12:53:24 <fizzie> fungot: You're running on a Linux system, I don't think you can say you don't use any Linux at all.
12:53:24 <fungot> fizzie: yes tell me how to not care. i just wish someone could translate the ca 10 haskell lines to scheme for you. i spent too much time
12:53:35 <fizzie> fungot: Don't you get uppity with me.
12:53:35 <fungot> fizzie: a fnord c-like language for making bot ai's for a game
12:54:07 <fizzie> fungot: You *are* a bot AI for the game called IRC.
12:54:07 <fungot> fizzie: didn't work too insanely well as you can get some food
12:56:10 <oerjan> @tell adu or put differently, there are only two _well_-defined states for a qubit to be in, all other states only make sense as states of the whole system of qubits.
13:02:42 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ <\oren\> it's the unthinkable number closest to 1 <-- there is no such number. the impossible part isn't the "unthinkable", but the "closest to 1" hth
13:03:56 * oerjan thinks the logs are disturbingly full of shoddy math today
13:05:30 <izabera> would you waste time to optimize +++, to , ?
13:05:53 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ proof: clearly 1 is not unthinkable. if x is unthinkable, then (1+x)/2 is also unthinkable, but closer to 1. thus no closest exists QED.
13:06:54 <izabera> pro: obviously better con: only improves stupid programs
13:07:41 <oerjan> izabera: note that "stupid" includes "auto-generated"
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13:09:54 <izabera1> wtf my amazon server is offline
13:10:27 * oerjan has a feeling the universe doesn't want him to spread his wisdom today.
13:11:00 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 13m 13s ago: mroman said 3h 14m 31s ago: what? <-- blub. you no speak fish?
13:11:00 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 12m 36s ago: i've forgotten why i spoke fish, except that there was a good reason. try the logs.
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13:11:46 <mroman> > group $ iterate (1.63**) 1
13:11:48 <lambdabot> [[1.0],[1.63],[2.21751106303051],[2.95480183600564],[4.23615968785223],[7.92...
13:12:13 <mroman> > filter (\c -> (length c) >= 2) $ group $ iterate (1.63**) 1
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13:12:33 <oerjan> mroman: i seriously doubt that converges, which is why i wondered wtf adu meant
13:12:43 <mroman> yeah but double has finite precision
13:12:49 <mroman> so I thought at some point it wouldn't change anymore
13:13:01 <mroman> (because of precision limitation)
13:13:04 <oerjan> well it would reach +INF
13:13:19 <mroman> > filter (\c -> (length c) < 2) $ group $ iterate (0.63**) 1
13:13:22 <lambdabot> [[1.0],[0.63],[0.7474541304505948],[0.7079722983415685],[0.7210056493825268]...
13:13:30 <mroman> > filter (\c -> (length c) >= 2) $ group $ iterate (0.63**) 1
13:13:37 <oerjan> > drop 10 $ iterate (1.63**) 1
13:13:39 <lambdabot> [Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Inf...
13:13:54 <mroman> > group $ drop 10 $ iterate (1.63**) 1
13:13:56 <lambdabot> [[Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,In...
13:13:59 <oerjan> the point is, it's not actually _converging_, it's growing faster
13:14:22 <mroman> it can't calc the length of that group of infinities
13:14:29 <mroman> how large is a group of infinities?
13:14:49 <mroman> it contains infinity infinitely many times
13:14:54 <mroman> so it's SUPER INFINITE
13:15:01 <oerjan> > group $ replicate 3 (1/0)
13:15:16 <oerjan> oh you already checked that
13:16:50 <oerjan> also it's lazy enough to give the infinities, but it would hang if you ever try to find the next group.
13:17:23 <mroman> but grouping that contains a list of infinite infinity
13:17:56 <oerjan> mroman: you know that m*m = m when m infinite cardinality is a theorem equivalent to the axiom of choice, right?
13:18:37 <oerjan> well it means you cannot super infinite that way
13:18:40 <mroman> if the list is [1,2,3,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity....]
13:18:48 <oerjan> (power sets work, of course)
13:18:54 <mroman> you have 3 elements of length 1
13:18:57 <mroman> and one element of length infinity
13:19:04 <mroman> so map (length) on that grouped list would hang
13:19:15 <oerjan> yep. as would length itself
13:19:25 <mroman> that's why the length >= 2 doesn't work
13:19:33 <mroman> it should work with atLeastTwo
13:20:11 <oerjan> well then you get the problem that it hangs if you try to get the "next" group
13:20:20 <mroman> > let atLeastTwo (x:y:_) = True; atLeastTwo _ = False in filter atLeastTwo $ group $ iterate (0.63**) 1
13:20:32 <mroman> at least in my head this would've worked
13:20:44 <mroman> > let atLeastTwo (x:y:_) = True; atLeastTwo _ = False in head $ filter atLeastTwo $ group $ iterate (0.63**) 1
13:21:01 <oerjan> it doesn't work because it doesn't know that there is no more groups after the infinite one
13:21:17 <oerjan> _that_ should have worked.
13:21:30 <mroman> > let atLeastTwo (x:y:_) = True; atLeastTwo _ = False in head . head $ filter atLeastTwo $ group $ iterate (0.63**) 1
13:21:33 <mroman> this' should give Infinity
13:21:46 <mroman> @type let atLeastTwo (x:y:_) = True; atLeastTwo _ = False in head . head $ filter atLeastTwo $ group $ iterate (0.63**) 1
13:22:04 <mroman> y u not working like u should man
13:22:16 <mroman> atLeastTwo shouldn't hang
13:22:39 <oerjan> and it should never look at more than the first
13:23:14 <oerjan> you're using 0.63 instead of 1.63
13:23:41 <oerjan> > drop 10 $ group $ iterate (0.63**) 1
13:23:44 <lambdabot> [[0.7177586391896805],[0.7177528833823562],[0.7177547921676407],[0.717754159...
13:23:53 <oerjan> > drop 50 $ group $ iterate (0.63**) 1
13:23:56 <lambdabot> [[0.7177543168046071],[0.717754316804607],[0.7177543168046071],[0.7177543168...
13:24:23 <oerjan> thought so. that theoretically converges, but in double it gives a periodic loop.
13:25:40 <oerjan> wait, did adu just write 1 instead of 0
13:26:17 <oerjan> > drop 50 $ group $ iterate (0.64**) 1
13:26:21 <lambdabot> [[0.7239190318772367],[0.7239190318772366],[0.7239190318772367],[0.723919031...
13:26:41 <oerjan> still looks pretty converging
13:27:44 <oerjan> mroman: ok your problem was that with 0.63 it converges, but _not_ in Double.
13:34:28 <fizzie> Floating points strike again.
13:42:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sbneelu * New user account
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14:09:16 <FreeFull> I suspect in the real numbers it would converge too, although I have no proof
14:09:33 <FreeFull> There probably is some way to prove it
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14:10:40 <izabera> there probably is some way to prove that there's some way to prove it
14:11:52 <coppro> very few things will converge in Double
14:11:59 <coppro> (besides constant sequences, of course)
14:12:17 <fizzie> > let f (x:y:_) | x == y = x; f (_:y) = f y in f $ iterate (0.66**) 1
14:12:26 <coppro> the nature of denormals means that you can't get most numbers closer than denormals are to 0
14:13:59 <myname> what magic is happening with that guard
14:16:42 <coppro> yeah, took me a moment too
14:18:54 <mroman> @type let atLeastTwo (x:y:_) = True; atLeastTwo _ = False in head . head $ filter atLeastTwo $ group $ iterate (1.63**) 1
14:18:57 <mroman> > let atLeastTwo (x:y:_) = True; atLeastTwo _ = False in head . head $ filter atLeastTwo $ group $ iterate (1.63**) 1
14:19:20 <oerjan> mroman: iterate (0.63**) ends up fluctuating between two close Doubles.
14:19:20 <fizzie> > let f (x:y:_) | x == y = repeat "conv"; f (x:y:z:_) | x == z = repeat "p2"; f (_:y) = f y in ((!! 100) . f . (\x -> iterate (x**) 1)) <$> [0.60, 0.61, 0.62, 0.63, 0.64, 0.65, 0.66, 0.67, 0.68, 0.69, 0.70]
14:19:23 <lambdabot> ["conv","p2","conv","p2","p2","conv","conv","conv","p2","conv","conv"]
14:20:02 <FreeFull> Wolfram Alpha says that for z = k^z the solution is z = Wn(-log(k))/log(k)
14:20:46 <FreeFull> Where Wn is some weird function
14:21:16 <oerjan> > log 0.63 * 0.63**0.717754316804607
14:22:10 <oerjan> FreeFull: see how the derivative is smaller than 1 in absolute value. that means it will shrink the interval around the fixpoint (now just prove there is a fixpoint)
14:22:57 <FreeFull> oerjan: Can you show it diverges for k > 1?
14:23:07 <oerjan> (actually, prove there's some interval mapped into itself, where the derivative is || < 1)
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14:48:51 <coppro> are independence theorems necessarily provable
14:49:07 <coppro> if S is a sentence, I is "S is independent", and I' is "I is independent"
14:49:20 <oerjan> coppro: if they're theorems, they are provable hth
14:49:24 <coppro> then if I' is true, S cannot be provably true, and cannot be provably false, so I is true, contradiction
14:53:11 <oerjan> coppro: "I is true" does not imply "I is not independent" hth
14:57:19 <oerjan> if S is not provably true, not provably false, then I is true, but not necessarily provable, so I' can still be true.
14:59:31 <ais523> what does "independent" mean here? that neither assuming it nor assuming its negation leads to a contradiction?
15:01:41 <ais523> coppro: there are various different formalizations of provability, in some of them but not all you have a result of the form "if 'X is provable' is provable, then X is provable", and in some of them but not all you have the converse
15:03:01 <ais523> also, in some of them you can prove those statements inside the logic, and in others they're true but you can't prove them inside the logic
15:21:45 <coppro> it would take a *proof* of I' to lead to a contradiction
15:21:46 -!- oerjan has set topic: R.I.P. Marvin Minsky | The international hub for magic gathering and deployment. | Effi's finest fluffy waffles | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/ | 100% of cpus on the wall ♪.
15:40:29 <ais523> coppro: this was my reasoning about P=NP
15:40:36 <ais523> was wondering if it might actually be undecidable
15:40:42 <ais523> I concluded that if it were undecidable, there would be no way to prove that
15:44:44 <oerjan> i think there are subtleties there
15:53:08 <MDream> Undecidably undecidable?
15:53:27 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
15:53:48 <Taneb> MDream: it could well be decidably decidable
15:53:56 <MDude> I see how it couldn't be provably undecidable.
15:54:24 <MDude> Since if it proven undecidable, you'd know you'd never get prove that would make it decidable.
15:54:46 <MDude> And any algorithm that allows P to equal NP would be decisive.
15:55:12 <Taneb> It could even be undecidably decidable
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16:25:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Drgftj * New user account
16:26:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[1-844-655-0455 Norotn 360 antivirus phone number USA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46290 * Drgftj * (+24666) Created page with "Norton@Help 1-844-655-0455 Norton antivirus technical support number USA norton tech support phone number USA norton 360 support phone number norton 844 phone number USA Norto..."
16:51:30 -!- bender| has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:52:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[1-844-655-0455 Norotn 360 antivirus phone number USA]]": spambot targeting multiple wikis
16:52:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Drgftj]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (account creation disabled): spambot targeting multiple wikis
17:16:03 <Taneb> That's a very specific expiry timke
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17:29:35 <ais523> Taneb: I just entered "24 years", I think the date parser got a bit confused
17:29:47 <ais523> either that or mediawiki is using floating-point dates to get around the Y2038 issue
17:30:08 <ais523> (2038 - 24 = 2014; the Y2038 issue was genuinely starting to cause problems a couple of years ago)
17:31:47 <ais523> b_jonas: heh, there's apparently an infinite loop where nobody gets priority
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18:22:03 <fizzie> I was thinking maybe the date was rounded to a day boundary, since it's 24 years + some hours, but the exact time doesn't really seem to match.
18:26:47 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
18:27:10 <fizzie> 18:26 <fizzie> ,cc float f = 2208988800.0f; float g = nextafterf(f, HUGE_VALF); printf("%.0f seconds", g - f);
18:27:13 <fizzie> 18:26 <candide> fizzie: 256 seconds
18:27:56 <fizzie> OTOH, the gap between successive (even single-precision) floats for unixtime around 2040 doesn't seem like 4 hours either.
18:53:28 <FreeFull> I wonder what sort of company Norotn is
18:53:44 <FreeFull> Is a Norotn 360 like an Xbox 360?
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19:18:27 <FreeFull> He had his body cryopreserved though
19:57:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Quick420 * New user account
20:01:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support Phone Number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46291 * Quick420 * (+2062) Created page with "1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support Phone Number 1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Phone Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support N..."
20:05:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Phone Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support Number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46292 * Quick420 * (+2062) Created page with "1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support Phone Number 1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Phone Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support N..."
20:07:35 <FreeFull> ais banned one earlier, but it seems this one is getting through now
20:07:39 <hppavilion[1]> I was hoping it was just an extremely long-named esolang
20:08:06 <FreeFull> The username is Quick420.. Do they smoke weed?
20:10:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[1-888-753-3415Quicken technical Support Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken technical Support Phone Number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46293 * Quick420 * (+2062) Created page with "1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support Phone Number 1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Phone Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support N...
20:13:51 <MDude> So, code that gets read directly from a wiki?
20:14:32 <MDude> There's a language that uses wiki code itself as a programming language.
20:15:48 <MDude> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag
20:17:02 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Uniquode. That looks like the languages I make xD
20:18:44 <MDude> The output could be made to include a link to the next step in the code.
20:19:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Zc 1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support Phone Number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46294 * Quick420 * (+2062) Created page with "1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support Phone Number 1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Phone Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support N..."
20:19:37 <MDude> And then a wikibot could be made that creates the page for that step and used the previous step's output as its contents.
20:22:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ZX 1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Phone Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support Number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46295 * Quick420 * (+2062) Created page with "1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support Phone Number 1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Phone Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support N..."
20:25:08 <hppavilion[1]> Even if it's an innocent bystander's computer that got hijacked
20:25:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Quick420]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46296 * 151.226.165.25 * (+7) Created page with "Spambot"
20:27:36 <FreeFull> I probably shouldn't have done that but eh
20:28:00 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: I don't know who here has admin priviledges on the wiki
20:28:46 <FreeFull> I should have filled that userpage with swearwords
20:29:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Quick191 * New user account
20:33:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[(1.888.451.1608) Quickbooks pro Technical Support numberQuickbooks Help Desk Phone number!!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46297 * Quick420 * (+9520) Created page with " (1.888.451.1608) Quickbooks pro Technical Support numberQuickbooks Help Desk Phone number!! Call....1 888 451 1608 Quickbooks tech support phone number, Quickbooks customer s..."
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20:37:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quickbooks pro tech support number (1-888-451-1608) Quickbooks technical support phone number usa Call]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46298 * Quick420 * (+9525) Created page with "Quickbooks pro tech support number (1-888-451-1608) Quickbooks technical support phone number usa Call....1 888 451 1608 Quickbooks tech support phone number, Quickbooks custo
20:38:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HTC+++)(1-888-451-1608) + Quickbooks tech support Phone Number..+ Quickbooks tech support phone number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46299 * Quick420 * (+49994) Created page with "HTC+++)(1-888-451-1608) + Quickbooks tech support Phone Number..+ Quickbooks tech support phone number USA + Quickbooks 1 888 451 1608 + Quickbooks customer support phone n
20:40:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DC 1-888-451-1608Quicken tech Support Number1-888-451-1608 Quicken tech Support Phone Number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46300 * Quick420 * (+30035) Created page with "QuickBooks Toll Free, Intuit@(1-888-451-1068)@ QuickBooks Tech Support Phone Number provides online solution for all USA/CANADA clients. For any help of query call 1 888-451-1..."
20:40:05 <fizzie> Time to update the captcha.
20:40:18 <fizzie> I'll see if I can manage the blocking thing.
20:41:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[(1-888-451-1608) Quickbooks technical support phone number usa,,...Quickbooks help Desk Phone Number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46301 * Quick420 * (+8645) Created page with "(1-888-451-1608) Quickbooks technical support phone number usa,,...Quickbooks help Desk Phone Number QuickBooks Toll Free, Intuit@(1-888-451-1608)@ QuickBooks Tech Support Pho..
20:41:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kumarsujit899 * New user account
20:41:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Quick420]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spamming links to external sites
20:42:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[((1 888 451 1608))CAS@Quickbooks tech Support Number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46302 * Kumarsujit899 * (+1060) Created page with "Quickbooks tech Support Number1 888 451 1608 Quickbooks technical Support Phone Number1 888 451 1608 Quickbooks technical Support Number1 888 451 1608 Quickbooks tech..."
20:43:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Kumarsujit899]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spamming links to external sites
20:43:28 <fizzie> Trying to set a new CAPTCHA at the moment, let's see if that works.
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20:44:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * USA Helpline ((1.800.860.9230 )) QuickBooks helpline phone number (((QuickBooks Pro support number * New user account
20:44:47 <fizzie> Apparently not. Unless my change didn't take effect soon enough.
20:45:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Brotherp * New user account
20:45:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sanramon92222 * New user account
20:45:43 <fizzie> Okay, I put in an impossible CAPTCHA for a moment, just to see if they're somehow bypassing it completely.
20:45:46 <fizzie> Which seems to be the case.
20:46:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Helpline ((1.800.860.9230 )) QuickBooks helpline phone number (((QuickBooks Pro support number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46303 * USA Helpline ((1.800.860.9230 )) QuickBooks helpline phone number (((QuickBooks Pro support number * (+43605) Created page with "Quickbooks tech Support Number 1 800 860 9230 Quickbooks technical Support Phone Number
20:46:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Solutions++++---1-800-728-7356++Quickbooks pro technical support number Quickbooks customer care number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46304 * Brotherp * (+11295) Created page with "Solutions++++---1-800-728-7356++Quickbooks technical support number Quickbooks customer care number Quickbooks customer service phone number Calling Helpline USA 1 800 728 7
20:47:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:USA Helpline ((1.800.860.9230 )) QuickBooks helpline phone number (((QuickBooks Pro support number]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spamming links to external sites
20:47:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Brotherp]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spamming links to external sites
20:47:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Sanramon92222 * moved [[HTC+++)(1-888-451-1608) + Quickbooks tech support Phone Number..+ Quickbooks tech support phone number]] to [[Talk:HTC+++)(1-888-451-1608) + Quickbooks tech support Phone Number..+ Quickbooks tech support phone number]]
20:48:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:HTC+++)(1-888-451-1608) + Quickbooks tech support Phone Number..+ Quickbooks tech support phone number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46307&oldid=46305 * Sanramon92222 * (+22654)
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20:48:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Sanramon92222 * moved [[Talk:HTC+++)(1-888-451-1608) + Quickbooks tech support Phone Number..+ Quickbooks tech support phone number]] to [[Talk:HTC+++..)(1-800-919-0992) + Quickbooks tech support Phone Number..+ Quickbooks tech support phone number]]
20:49:16 <FreeFull> https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Amnesiac_From_Minsk Rip Minski
20:50:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Sanramon92222]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Some page moves I don't understand at all
20:57:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support Phone Number]]": Spam
20:57:19 <fizzie> There will be a bunch of spam-page deletions now. I hope this is the right way to do them.
20:57:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Phone Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support Number]]": Spam
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20:58:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[Zc 1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support Phone Number]]": Spam
20:58:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[ZX 1-888-753-3415Quicken tech Support Phone Number1-888-753-3415 Quicken tech Support Number]]": Spam
20:58:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[(1.888.451.1608) Quickbooks pro Technical Support numberQuickbooks Help Desk Phone number!!]]": Spam
20:59:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[Quickbooks pro tech support number (1-888-451-1608) Quickbooks technical support phone number usa Call]]": Spam
20:59:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[HTC+++)(1-888-451-1608) + Quickbooks tech support Phone Number..+ Quickbooks tech support phone number]]": Spam
20:59:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[DC 1-888-451-1608Quicken tech Support Number1-888-451-1608 Quicken tech Support Phone Number]]": Spam
20:59:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[(1-888-451-1608) Quickbooks technical support phone number usa,,...Quickbooks help Desk Phone Number]]": Spam
20:59:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[((1 888 451 1608))CAS@Quickbooks tech Support Number]]": Spam
21:00:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[Helpline ((1.800.860.9230 )) QuickBooks helpline phone number (((QuickBooks Pro support number]]": Spam
21:00:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[Solutions++++---1-800-728-7356++Quickbooks pro technical support number Quickbooks customer care number]]": Spam
21:00:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[Talk:HTC+++)(1-888-451-1608) + Quickbooks tech support Phone Number..+ Quickbooks tech support phone number]]": Spam
21:02:12 <fizzie> There's also one account ("Quick191") that got created but not blocked, because it didn't spam any. Wonder what's up with that.
21:03:18 <fizzie> Anyway, seems that the account creation stopped, so maybe the CAPTCHA is actually working, and it just takes a moment to update -- not sure how it works in practice.
21:08:12 <fizzie> Based on the access.log of the web server (which has grown to 200 megs), they're still knocking.
21:09:19 <fizzie> Lots of hits to Special:UserLogin&type=signup etc.
21:10:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:HTC+++..)(1-800-919-0992) + Quickbooks tech support Phone Number..+ Quickbooks tech support phone number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46310&oldid=46308 * Quick191 * (-62530)
21:10:06 <fizzie> All of this is from a single IP address in India.
21:10:17 <fizzie> Hey, there's the Quick191 I noticed.
21:10:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Quick191]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spamming links to external sites
21:11:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[Talk:HTC+++..)(1-800-919-0992) + Quickbooks tech support Phone Number..+ Quickbooks tech support phone number]]": Spam
21:11:24 <FireFly> I think technically it was spamming phone numbers, not links :p
21:11:35 <fizzie> Yeah, but that wasn't on the dropdown of common block reasons. :p
21:12:26 <fizzie> They're following the link in the CAPTCHA question.
21:12:41 <fizzie> I wonder if it's a program that tries all words on that page as the CAPTCHA answer.
21:12:56 <fizzie> (I picked one where you need to turn a plural English word into a singular one for the current question.)
21:14:05 <FireFly> That doesn't really sound all that great.. wouldn't it be pretty easy to do a dictionary attack for that?
21:14:26 <fizzie> Sure, but I don't think they're doing dictionary attacks.
21:14:50 <fizzie> It used to be a year number directly on the linked-to page.
21:17:09 <fizzie> Also blocked some individual IPs completely, firewall-wise. The drop rules keep steadily getting more packets, so they're still trying to connect.
21:17:44 <fizzie> There's a number of addresses, though. Presumably infected zombies.
21:19:41 <fizzie> Wonder if there's a log on the invalid CAPTCHA answers somewhere. It's not in the server access log, because it's a POST request.
21:19:42 <int-e> Wee, 15 days uptime and only a CPU stall, no read errors so far... could it be possible that CoC actually maintains their hardware?
21:20:22 <int-e> (I doubt it, but it's an interesting line of speculation nonetheless)
21:27:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lindaseeds * New user account
21:27:49 <int-e> plausible user name... where's the spam...
21:29:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[C-Wing(1-855-935-7526) Quickbooks technical support phone number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46311 * Lindaseeds * (+22769) C-Wing(1-855-935-7526) Quickbooks technical support phone number
21:31:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Lindaseeds]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spam spam spam
21:31:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[C-Wing(1-855-935-7526) Quickbooks technical support phone number]]": Spam
21:31:35 <fizzie> I impossibilated the CAPTCHA again for now; trying to have dinner here.
21:31:43 <fizzie> Will have to think about this.
21:43:04 <FreeFull> I'll try it out by making an account
21:43:22 <fizzie> You shouldn't be able to solve it.
21:43:33 <fizzie> I mean, currently the answer is a random string.
21:45:29 <fizzie> But that's not very helpful for actual new users, so it's not really a long-term solution.
21:46:11 <fizzie> Sadly, there seems to be no logging in QuestyCaptcha. I could've looked and tried to guesstimate whether they're doing it programmatically or humanistically. It's perfectly plausible they're just having humans solve these.
21:46:49 <int-e> you should perhaps change the question(s?, but I've seen only one) so that it indicates the impossibility to solve...
21:47:57 <FreeFull> You could have probably disabled registration the normal way
21:48:33 <fizzie> Yes, but this was easiest. Google suggested $wgGroupPermissions['*']['createaccount'] = false; but I'm not sure what sort of error messages that would give.
21:48:43 <fizzie> Anyway, put a note in the question.
21:52:30 <fizzie> I thought about having a dynamically generated piece of brainfuck the user would have to run (with a link to one of the JS brainfuck things), which would at least mean you couldn't just solve it once and put the answers in a program, but that doesn't really help if they're having humans solve them on the fly.
21:53:22 -!- luis88 has joined.
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21:54:43 <fizzie> The fact that they keep trying to submit the new user creation form all the time might indicate it's at least not completely manual.
21:55:15 -!- luis88 has joined.
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22:07:24 <FireFly> It helps a bit in that if the users have no idea what they're doing they might not understand to run a piece of brainfuck in a JS interpreter
22:07:39 <FireFly> or might help a bit, rather
22:08:49 <izabera> new small optimizations: http://mazonka.com/brainf/hi123 input https://arin.ga/fPoLYu/raw output
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22:10:48 <fizzie> Failed to get D-Bus connection: Unknown error -1
22:10:52 <fizzie> That's not nice either.
22:14:06 <fizzie> Actually, hmm. Maybe the current init is not systemd. That thing got kind of accidentally dist-upgraded recently.
22:16:09 <FreeFull> fizzie: You can check if any systemd processes are running
22:16:32 <fizzie> Maybe that's reasonable then.
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22:16:58 <int-e> no, that's still an unforgivably awful error message
22:20:23 <fizzie> In other news, they're still sporadically trying to create new users, if I'm reading the log right.
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22:38:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Fizzie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46312&oldid=46093 * 82.68.182.45 * (+46) CAPTCHA test.
22:38:26 <fizzie> There's a very simple brainfuck-driven CAPTCHA now.
22:38:41 <fizzie> I didn't yet link to a canonical web-based interpreter, but at least it's not impossible to solve.
22:39:30 <fizzie> Oh, it didn't escape the <>s, my browser was just kind enough. I'll need to fix that.
22:41:16 <FireFly> It'll be a bit interesting to see how long it takes for them to figure it out
22:41:41 <fizzie> There's just 25.359 or so bits of randomness in it, but I think that should prevent random guessing.
22:42:50 <fizzie> It computes 10*10 ('d'), and then does 16 times a . instruction, randomly prefixed by either '+', '-' or nothing. Slightly limited so that it's always from 'a' to 'z'.
22:43:55 <fizzie> Line-wrapping on the account creation page is pretty nasty, but...
22:44:42 <int-e> darn, now how does one check whether there is a dictionary word of that kind... with standard unix tools
22:45:10 <fizzie> Heh. I'd go with a perl oneliner.
22:45:29 <fizzie> I don't think there is, though. I mean, not one that's exactly 16 characters.
22:46:09 <fizzie> There's shorter words for sure. "deed" comes to mind.
22:46:46 <fizzie> Maybe something very farfetched.
22:47:33 <fizzie> E.g. "defeeded", when you remove a RSS feed from your feed browser.
22:49:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mackhill1988 * New user account
22:50:02 <fizzie> I'm very disappointed when that turns out to be spam.
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22:50:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Contact US......1 800 797 6023 QuickBooks technical support Phone Number and QuickBooks pro customer support Phone Number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46313 * Mackhill1988 * (+37075) Contact US......1 800 797 6023 QuickBooks technical support Phone Number and QuickBooks pro customer support Phone Number
22:50:42 <fizzie> I'm very disappointed now.
22:51:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Mackhill1988]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spam spam spam
22:51:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[Contact US......1 800 797 6023 QuickBooks technical support Phone Number and QuickBooks pro customer support Phone Number]]": Spam
22:52:59 <FireFly> They're not incompetent apparently
22:53:11 <fizzie> I might even go as far as to say they're either having actual humans do this, or there's some sort of circumvention thing (but then why would the keyboard-mashing question block them).
22:53:40 <FireFly> I'm going with humans at this rate
22:53:48 <FireFly> What can you do about that..
22:54:04 <int-e> hmm... a bit silly: grep '^[A-Za-z]*$' /usr/share/dict/words | tr A-Z a-z | grep -Ev 'a[c-z]|b[d-z]|c[ae-z]|d[abf-z]|e[a-cg-z]|f[a-dh-z]|g[a-ei-z]|h[a-fj-z]|i[a-gk-z]|j[a-hl-z]|k[a-im-z]|l[a-jn-z]|m[a-ko-z]|n[a-lp-z]|o[a-mq-z]|p[a-nr-z]|q[a-os-z]|r[a-pt-z]|s[a-qu-z]|t[a-rv-z]|u[a-sw-z]|v[a-tx-z]|w[a-uyz]|x[a-vz]|y[a-w]|z[a-x]'
22:55:02 <int-e> "deeded" is the longest result here... not much of a word.
22:55:59 <int-e> ah damn, that didn't take very long
22:57:32 <int-e> well, if they're using humans to solve them, captchas aren't be of much help...
22:59:05 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Perhaps we should track down the IP and send a Cease and Desist
22:59:15 <int-e> (The more interesting question is how they get people to do this... some sort of puzzle page that relays captchas, perhaps? With highscores and everything :P)
22:59:50 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: We could block registration for a few days be using a captcha that requires knowledge of programming
23:02:26 <FreeFull> How about, to register, you have to craft an esoteric language first?
23:03:45 * int-e is registered despite not having created any esolangs...
23:04:01 -!- p34k has quit.
23:04:10 <FreeFull> int-e: Well, it'd be good motivation
23:04:25 <FreeFull> How about a programming language where the interpreter takes a brownian walk through the code?
23:05:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:06:18 <int-e> we'd probably just add to the pile of brainfuck derivatives...
23:07:00 <FreeFull> It doesn't necessarily have to be brainfuck-like at all though
23:07:23 <FreeFull> It doesn't have to be turing-complete either
23:07:47 <int-e> right, even finite automata can be interesting...
23:09:03 <FreeFull> Take an infinite automaton bone, put it in a pot, add some infinitely-sized integers, and you've got yourself a minsky stew going
23:09:31 <int-e> (I'm thinking of Malbolge, which is a finite automaton with something like 59049^59050 states)
23:10:38 <FreeFull> I'm tempted to implement this language now
23:14:47 <fizzie> Maybe I should just ask potential new users to email me (er, well, some role account at esolangs.org). It's kind of sucky to require an email like that, but on the other hand so's having a bunch of spambots.
23:17:22 <FreeFull> What if the spambot owners email you too?
23:18:33 <izabera> who benefits from spamming on esolangs.org?
23:18:57 <fizzie> Well, it's free advertisement.
23:20:44 <izabera> what's special about 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds?
23:20:46 <fizzie> If I Google for that most recent number (6023), #1 hit is esolangs.org, then wiki.jenkins-ci.org (the continuous integration infra system), then wiki.wesnoth.org, then wiki.dreamhost.com, then community.kde.org and so on and so forth.
23:21:12 <fizzie> izabera: It's what comes out when you type "24 years" in the box, which is something ais523 initially did, and I just followed their lead.
23:21:30 <fizzie> We're unsure why it's parsed like that.
23:21:31 <izabera> pretty sure google doesn't show esolangs.org to normal people
23:21:42 <FreeFull> fizzie: What happens if you type in 1 century ?
23:21:59 <fizzie> FreeFull: I'm not sure there's a good way to try.
23:22:55 <fizzie> Well, if I Google for "quickbooks support number", I get the spammy wiki.jenkins-ci.org page as a WebAnswers box.
23:23:00 <fizzie> Time for some feedback, I think.
23:23:08 <FreeFull> fizzie: I was thinking, email is optional right now during registration
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23:23:17 <FreeFull> Would making it mandatory be enough?
23:23:50 <int-e> so they create the page and immediately ask google to crawl it? sigh...
23:24:07 <fizzie> FreeFull: Oh, you mean making it mandatory to do the confirm-by-email thing? I don't know. If they're actually having humans do these, perhaps they're prepared for that as well.
23:28:54 <FreeFull> fizzie: Could even make it something like "ask fizzie on IRC if you want an account"
23:29:19 <FreeFull> There aren't exactly that many people registering for an account anyway
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23:33:01 <int-e> how hard is it to find the operator of a toll-free number?
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23:34:11 <fizzie> I don't know. But they do have several numbers.
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23:44:18 <fizzie> I went to some of the other spammed wikis to try find out how they're coping -- https://wiki.wesnoth.org/ is not looking too good.
23:45:46 <fizzie> The Jenkins CI wiki uses real reCAPTCHA, and they still have spam pages up.
23:46:50 <izabera> http://mywiki.wooledge.org/EnglishFrontPage?action=info check any of these
23:47:33 <fizzie> wiki.dreamhost.com seems to have just disabled account creation.
23:48:31 <FreeFull> Well, recaptcha doesn't help against humans
00:04:01 <hppavilion[1]> I'm attempting to make an OS (well, probably not an OS, but something like one) using an augmented BF
00:06:20 <FireFly> fizzie: how do you find other wikis that are hit by the bot?
00:12:20 <FreeFull> I read "GG, I was rooting for you" as "GC, I was rooting for you"
00:24:09 <fizzie> FireFly: Googled for one of the phone numbers.
00:45:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:(1.888.451.1608) Quickbooks pro Technical Support numberQuickbooks Help Desk Phone number!!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46314 * Rottytooth * (+148) Created page with "Was hoping this was a real language, love the title :) - ~~~~"
00:46:13 <fizzie> I don't think we want to encourage the spammy phone number, sadly.
00:47:05 <fizzie> On the other hand, I don't want to just be a killjoy and delete that talk page either.
01:05:03 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Unefunge is better ;)
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01:05:29 <FreeFull> Rottytooth? Where did they even get that name from?
01:06:11 <FreeFull> Are they copying random people's usernames?
01:06:18 <fizzie> No, that's (presumably) a real user.
01:06:25 <fizzie> Based on the page contents.
01:08:04 <fizzie> I'm kind of divided here, because I don't think we want to have that page title on the site, to avoid boosting the Google rankings of that phone number.
01:08:20 <FreeFull> Yeah, you should get rid of the page
01:09:02 <fizzie> I guess I'll just delete the talk page as well. (The actual article was already deleted.)
01:10:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[Talk:(1.888.451.1608) Quickbooks pro Technical Support numberQuickbooks Help Desk Phone number!!]]": Let's try not to advertise this phone number even in titles.
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01:15:48 <fizzie> And asking for help with QuickBooks?
01:15:57 <\oren\> it just rings over and over, no answer
01:16:39 <\oren\> I was going to prank them
01:17:22 <\oren\> by pretending to be the CSIS
01:18:16 <\oren\> or maybe play a rickroll into the phone
01:20:23 <fizzie> There are still some spammer-looking hits in the access log; one sequnce first to /wiki/[one of the deleted spam pages] -> / -> /wiki/Main_Page -> user creation page -> weird GET request of the user creation form action="" URL, even though it's a POST form, I don't know what's up with that.
01:21:11 <Sgeo_> I got a weird email from my aunt, I assume my aunt didn't actually send it. How can I determine if it came from her account (in which case I should warn her?) or elsewhere?
01:21:27 <fizzie> Oh, maybe that's just part of a redirect of the account creation page, and not the actual submit target.
01:21:39 <fizzie> Sgeo_: Sometimes you can tell from the Received: headers.
01:21:54 <Sgeo_> Hmm, what am I looking for?
01:22:17 <fizzie> Well, the bottom-most one would be the first email server the message went through.
01:23:10 <fizzie> You can try guesstimating whether that looks plausible for whatever sort of email-sending thing your aunt would be using. (E.g. if it's a webmail account, those usually have standard outgoing-mail servers things go through.)
01:23:21 <fizzie> Or you could just compare it to a known-good message's chain of headers.
01:25:23 <fizzie> (Some of them might be fake, though I'm not sure how popular that is.)
01:25:24 <\oren\> none of the qikbuks tek suprt numbers get answers
01:25:32 <Sgeo_> I think it really did come from her account
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01:26:23 <\oren\> i called all of them, no anser and no nswering machine, so I couldn't leave them a rickroll either
01:28:56 <\oren\> that doens't make any sense either, i thought they were plastering these numbers places so people will call them?!!
01:29:30 <fizzie> Maybe they're overwhelmed with clients.
01:31:01 <\oren\> usually though that means you'll be stuck waiting, not simply have no answer
01:33:58 <lifthrasiir> I'm drawing runic characters and it seems that there are not much resources on the (hopefully) complete list of known variations to each letters
01:34:45 <lifthrasiir> I knew the Unicode encoding of runic characters is based on the "idealized" glyphs modulo accidental duplication without a shared history
01:35:21 <lifthrasiir> but then it might be sensible to think about the variation selectors to select a particular variant of each letter, while there are not
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01:55:32 <boily> hppavellon[1]. spam musubi? grilled spam? spam, bok choi, eggs and tomato ramen?
01:59:08 <boily> woah woah woah. that shit's toxic, y'know.
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02:01:17 <boily> hm. HackEgo's still stuck, I see...
02:01:19 <HackEgo> AlexR42: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
02:01:37 <boily> hppavilion[1]: and did it you were have had it solved, right?
02:02:45 <fizzie> No, I just disabled new account creation for now.
02:02:54 <fizzie> It's the only thing that worked.
02:04:06 <fizzie> I even tried changing the CAPTCHA to one that generates a (partially) random brainfuck program and asks for its output, and they went through that as well.
02:08:37 <fizzie> Unless that was a case of using an account creation page fetched earlier, that just happened to go through soon after I enabled the bf CAPTCHA. It's a shame there's no CAPTCHA answer log. I'll probably retry it tomorrow or so when I'll be around to monitor things.
02:08:52 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: you should have asked it to run them instead
02:15:36 <boily> spam and bots solving brainfuck problems. there's something deeply wrong somewhere.
02:19:41 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: I see. I copied my runes off a picture of a runic manuscript from wikipedia
02:19:56 <\oren\> well, some of them anyway
02:21:44 <boily> he\\oren\. fonting?
02:24:52 <MDude> Bots solving brainfuck problems so quickly would suggest either other sites using them for captchas, or. bots just being that adaptable.
02:25:08 <MDude> Or the spammers being human, in which case I suppose they'd have seen a lot of brainfuck by now.
02:25:28 <lifthrasiir> the point is that there are not many websites using BF as CAPTCHAs
02:26:12 <MDude> Right, so one would think bots wouldn't be programmed to work around them.
02:26:38 <MDude> Which is exactly my point.
02:27:55 <Sgeo_> Is this page blank for anyone else or just me (warning: Wikia) http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Edith_Keeler
02:28:10 <Sgeo_> Like, it's weird, clicking Edit shows content
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02:29:16 <MDude> I saw a similar problem on a Wikipedia page once.
02:29:30 <boily> there are weird things floating around between the interwebs. fleeting entities waving tendrils from emergent dimensions. always out of reach, staying in the corners of our hindsights.
02:29:32 <MDude> Oddly, the last edit was supposedly by a bot which just un-blanked it.
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02:35:38 <fizzie> Given the other wikis affected by the spam we got (KDE community, travis-ci, Wesnoth, DreamHost, OpenStreetMap, some Linux forum, etc.) it seemed like a very technically oriented spamming.
02:44:52 <hppavilion[1]> Somebody should write a story about mathematics manifested in the real world
02:45:07 <hppavilion[1]> Like, a world where Banach-Tarski is a practical thing used in production
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02:47:21 <hppavilion[1]> And where I can use the Principal of Explosion to derive your mom's phone number
02:47:25 <\oren\> that would be good for cannonball production
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03:57:48 <FireFly> fizzie: hmm, tcrf combats spam by checking if port 80/8080 is open on the host trying to register, which seems to catch a lot of bots (the idea is that it's likely to be an open proxy if it has one of those ports open)
03:58:21 <FireFly> though I guess given the target audience for an esolang wiki it's possible that would yield some false positives...
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05:09:39 <\oren\> I made an HTOVL plane in KSP!
05:10:12 <\oren\> the vertical landing is done using parachutes carefully balanced
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05:15:43 <Sgeo_> Sorry about all of that
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06:41:03 <hppavilion[1]> I'd like to see a bare-metal python implementation xD
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07:39:22 <hppavilion[2]> lifthrasiir: metafinity, if you're curious, is a number greater than any SURreal number
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10:16:53 <mroman> looks like time to add a new anti-spam question :)
10:17:22 <mroman> Can't you enable the captcha for every login?
10:17:26 <mroman> Instead of just failed attempts?
10:17:47 <fizzie> Huh? It's enabled for account creation. How would enabling it for login help?
10:17:53 <fizzie> Also adding a new question didn't help at all.
10:18:01 <mroman> Oh. I didn't know it was enabled for account creation.
10:18:15 <fizzie> Adding a dynamic one that generates a (partially) random brainfuck program and asks for its output did not help either.
10:18:37 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure they had real people solving it.
10:19:03 <mroman> Yeah, you can't do shit against human spammers :)
10:19:20 <mroman> There's no adequate are you a human spammer test yet
10:20:54 <mroman> at least not with more effort :)
10:21:26 <mroman> which would be kinda overkill
10:21:44 <mroman> (like account activation)
10:21:46 <fizzie> There's still a new hit coming to the new user creation page every 1-5 minutes, and I doubt these are legit new users, because normally we've got at most one new user per day.
10:23:03 <mroman> Sadly, that's pretty normal.
10:23:26 <mroman> the biggest log file on my vServer was failed ssh attempts :D
10:26:02 <fizzie> There were a lot of other "nerd" wikis (KDE community wiki, the Jenkins CI system, DreamHost webhosting, Wesnoth, ...) hit by the same spam.
10:27:43 <fizzie> I don't know if that's just Google sorting stuff so that it's relevant for me, in which case that might tell more about me than the spammers. :)
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10:30:27 <ais523> ugh at all the wiki spam
10:30:41 <ais523> fizzie: is all the recent spam cleared or do I need to clear it?
10:30:43 <fizzie> 10:17 <fizzie> Also adding a new question didn't help at all.
10:30:45 <fizzie> 10:18 <fizzie> Adding a dynamic one that generates a (partially) random brainfuck program and asks for its output did not help either.
10:30:48 <fizzie> 10:18 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure they had real people solving it.
10:30:49 <ais523> either way I am adding an abuse filter rule
10:31:05 <ais523> I'm pretty sure it's real people too; they're hitting other wikis as well
10:31:07 <fizzie> I deleted all I saw in recent changes, at least.
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11:21:08 <ais523> working on the abuse filter now
11:22:36 <ais523> wow that spammer uses a bunch of different numbers
11:28:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/6]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/6/diff/prev/36]])
11:29:18 <Melvar> What are the conditions in C on casting a larger integer type into a smaller one?
11:30:28 <ais523> Melvar: if both are unsigned, the value is reduced modulo the max of the smaller one + 1; if both are signed, the value must fit in the smaller type or it's undefined behaviour; not sure about mixed signedness
11:30:55 <Melvar> That’s almost what I expected. Maybe I’m getting better at C logic.
11:31:49 <Melvar> What do the common compilers tend to do with signed ints that don’t fit?
11:33:05 <Melvar> Just truncate the bits?
11:33:43 <ais523> Melvar: truncate the bits, and often delete any codepaths that would only run if the number was out of range
11:34:36 <ais523> fizzie: huh, turns out there's a different spambot attacking us too but it got caught in the existing filters
11:35:33 <ais523> also there's no pattern in the spammer IPs
11:35:42 <ais523> my theory is that it's posting from compromised machines
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11:36:26 <Melvar> (Coding a representation of a subset of C integer types and want the casting to work right. I guess I still need to look up casting between signednesses …)
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11:36:43 <ais523> huh, one of them was posting from AWS
11:36:53 <ais523> I wonder if it's worth sending an abuse report for that
11:37:39 <Melvar> ais523: Is it the case that bitwise operators are undefined on signed integers?
11:37:51 <ais523> Melvar: I don't think so, but I'm not sure
11:38:04 <ais523> I'm reasonably sure they work on positive numbers, at least
11:38:06 <ais523> not sure about negative ones
11:38:47 <Melvar> For that matter, what about prefix - on unsigned?
11:39:01 <ais523> prefix - on unsigned works modulo maximum value + 1
11:39:07 <ais523> i.e. it's basically just ~ with an offset of 1
11:41:08 <Melvar> Hm. I had so far decided to make it a type error, maybe I should put it in then.
11:44:15 <ais523> I assume you're trying to do some sort of certified-C compiler?
11:45:20 <Melvar> I’m doing some sort of attempt to improve an FFI.
11:46:20 <mroman> Melvar: gcc might just optimize the code away :p
11:48:22 <Melvar> Which can only pass int and fixed-size types. So you have to look up what size other things are and use the fixed-size types. So my plan is to read out what the size is on the current system and define an appropriate type alias mapping to one instance of this type I’m defining.
11:50:48 <Melvar> I.e. generate something like “SizeT : Type; SizeT = Int' Unsigned IT64” on my home system.
12:02:31 <fizzie> ais523: There was another cloud provider in the list when I was looking.
12:02:51 <ais523> this means that compromised servers is the most likely source
12:03:02 <ais523> if the spammers were renting the servers themselves they wouldn't be on such a range of providers
12:05:14 <fizzie> Pedantic nit: it's not "~ with an offset of 1" on a platform that doesn't use two's-complement.
12:05:58 <fizzie> Because ~ actually works in terms of bits of the representation, while the modulo for - works in terms of the value.
12:06:20 <fizzie> Unsigned, right, right.
12:08:05 <ais523> ah, that's a good point
12:08:14 <ais523> ~ is defined on signed numbers but works on individual bits
12:09:07 <ais523> so on sign-magnitude, ~65530 is -5
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12:49:02 <ais523> ooh, I think there's an answer to how MTGO would deal with a Turing machine construction (that didn't terminate very quickly): https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/42ri7z/weirdest_rules_interaction/czcqx2b
12:49:08 <ais523> that's its behavour on a trivial infinite loop
12:49:21 <ais523> and there's nothing about it that would vary for large finite loops
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13:21:32 <SopaXT> I just made a 1/8 glider emitter in game of life
13:21:47 <SopaXT> It consists of four Gosper Glider Guns
13:23:46 <SopaXT> Two gliders collide to make a block
13:24:10 <SopaXT> Later, two gliders collide with a newborn block and only 1 escapes
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13:47:16 <oerjan> @tell FreeFull <FreeFull> oerjan: Can you show it diverges for k > 1? <-- after proper rest and some thought: no because it's not actually true
13:47:48 <oerjan> in fact, i believe adu misremembered his favorite number
13:48:01 <oerjan> the above is the actual boundary.
13:49:30 <oerjan> > drop 50 $ iterate (1.44**) 1
13:49:32 <lambdabot> [2.393302963365745,2.3933676777427575,2.3934241562665295,2.393473448159275,2...
13:49:43 <oerjan> > drop 100 $ iterate (1.44**) 1
13:49:45 <lambdabot> [2.393811180503848,2.3938112526658517,2.3938113156551126,2.393811370637608,2...
13:49:56 <oerjan> > drop 100 $ iterate (1.45**) 1
13:49:59 <lambdabot> [Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Inf...
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14:14:12 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> Why don't we adapt the pages to be an esolang? <-- been there, done that, see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora%27s_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download
14:16:54 <FreeFull> oerjan: Oh, it converges for k>1 too?
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14:17:25 <oerjan> i conclude that's the number adu actually meant
14:17:45 <oerjan> (incidentally, for the boundary number, the fixpoint is e)
14:18:20 <oerjan> > exp(exp(-1)) ** exp 1
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14:21:24 <izabera> i see, so ** is the "forget everything" operator
14:21:41 * oerjan hopes no genuine new users were caught in the block frenzy yesterdary
14:22:10 <oerjan> it seems to me like some of them didn't get around to spamming first. or maybe they were just bot deleted.
14:23:54 <oerjan> page creations don't show up when the page has been deleted
14:25:54 <ais523> oerjan: there were two spambots in a spamming frenzy
14:26:08 <ais523> just one of them got caught in our existing filters
14:26:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[User:Quick420]]": content was: "Spambot" (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/151.226.165.25|151.226.165.25]]")
14:26:38 <ais523> and was spamming from an IP, not using a username
14:26:45 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseLog is public
14:26:52 <ais523> I'm tempted to block the IP in question so that it stops spamming the abuse log :-P
14:27:20 <oerjan> surely it'd only move then
14:27:34 <ais523> strangely enough it's editing a different IP's userpage
14:27:47 <ais523> oerjan: well, that depends on if it has any awareness it's been blocked
14:27:55 <ais523> it certainly doesn't seem to have much awareness that it's hitting the spam filter
14:28:15 <oerjan> does this mean you never got an actual working CAPTCHA?
14:29:20 <ais523> we did; however some of the spambots use human captcha-solvers
14:29:42 <ais523> the recent phone number spammer solved three entirely different captchas in quick succession
14:29:53 <ais523> either they have strong AI or there's a human involved
14:29:57 <int-e> ah... we have a 6th filter now.
14:30:21 <ais523> no hits yet, but hopefully it'll help
14:30:28 <ais523> also no automatic blocks, it just prevents the action
14:30:37 * int-e didn't realize the filters were publicly viewable
14:30:40 <ais523> we can move to automatic blocks if there's signs that people are manually editing the text to get around them
14:30:42 <ais523> int-e: they don't have to be
14:31:00 <ais523> but I'm following Wikipedia's rule of "make them public unless there's a good reason not to"
14:31:28 <ais523> every indication is that the spammers are solving the captchas by hand, but not using human intelligence in the text to post
14:32:17 <int-e> yeah... yesterday's wave looked like manual account creation followed by automated page creations.
14:33:45 <ais523> I'm interested in how they pick their usernames
14:34:04 <ais523> I think there are a few "ais523" spambots because a spambot had the bright idea of copying usernames from Wikipedia
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15:11:56 <mroman> and Quick420 even stated on his User:Quick420 that he's a Spambot
15:13:00 <oerjan> mroman: that wasn't him stating it, just someone here with bad willpower hth
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15:24:51 <Sgeo_> I was eligible to vote in the Arbitrary Committee election on Wikipedia. I feel like I shouldn't have been, especially since I barely jknew that was a thing
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15:29:31 <Sgeo_> Being a longtime user not required
15:30:11 <Sgeo_> Hmm, I wonder if maybe a certain distribution, at least some more recent than others, makes more sense
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15:43:43 <Sgeo_> Well, this is interesting: https://www.google.com/?q=misdirection
15:44:08 <Sgeo_> The first box has information about the performance magic meaning, but the image is for the MtG card
15:45:58 <Sgeo_> For some reason, I'm now wondering if it's possible to become immune to misdirection
15:53:53 <fizzie> oerjan: I tried out a "generate a (partially) random brainfuck program, ask for its output" CAPTCHA, and even that didn't help.
15:54:15 <fizzie> oerjan: And I refuse to believe that's sufficiently common for bots to cope with it within 5 minutes of its introduction.
15:55:32 <fizzie> (Though since the CAPTCHA q and a are both generated and stored at the new-user form creation time, IIUC, it could have theoretically been a page fetched earlier and submitted later.)
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16:47:52 <Sgeo_> https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/42x2b4/the_use_of_antibiotics_in_young_children_may/
16:48:23 <Sgeo_> I was given an antibiotic as a kid, and seemed to have low weight, not high way. But I'm an anecdote.
16:49:33 <Sgeo_> You know, I just thought of something
16:49:36 <FreeFull> Did you get them with any probiotics?
16:50:22 <Sgeo_> We need to minimize people's use of antibiotics to when they're absolutely essential. You know what's limited to that too, chemo. So we need to call antibiotics chemotherapy or something.
16:50:57 <Sgeo_> And a lot of the stuff antibiotics can easily treat would be about as scary as cancer before antibiotics exist
16:52:48 <FreeFull> Also on the flipside, people who are taking antibiotics to treat something shouldn't stop just because they are starting to feel better. You need to make sure to actually kill all the bad bacteria, or they will come back, in a more resistant form
16:53:55 <Sgeo_> I don't think there's an analogue of that in chemo, is there?
16:54:17 <Sgeo_> Although we don't want to scare people into stopping antibiotics, yeah'
16:55:21 <FreeFull> You definitely don't want people doing shit like taking antibiotics for a viral infection though
16:57:01 <Sgeo_> If we knew then what we know now about antibiotic abuse, do you think the discovers of antibiotics would be able to keep things a bit saner somehow?
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17:11:17 <Sgeo_> Oh, there is an analogue of that: For both antibiotics and chemotherapy, you FOLLOW THE DOCTOR'S ORDERS (or potentially get other DOCTOR opinions)
17:12:00 <Sgeo_> You don't walk out of a chemo session because it hurts too much, you don't quit antibiotics because you're feeling better
17:12:41 <Sgeo_> Actually I guess I don't know much about chemo, hmm
17:14:05 <Sgeo_> Actually, when is FOLLOW THE DOCTOR's ORDERS ever actually contraindicated?
17:14:44 <Sgeo_> I haven't really been consistent with my own meds >.>, but in my case it might be less severe I hope
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17:43:01 <Sgeo_> Well I just delirumed (or maybe it's not delerium anymore?) a game that could exist. Not to make money off of though
17:43:08 <Sgeo_> More of a prank game
17:44:25 <Sgeo_> Dog wants dog treat. User looks at a 3D hex-cylinder thing. But there's no dog treat. A timer tells the user this at 2 minutes, 3 minutes, 5 minutes, an hour, two hours (or something like that)
17:45:47 <Sgeo_> Also, a fake news site generator that's like "Who's the best dog? $YOURDOG is" except somehow it's just the dog's name in a bowl and for some reason it's in 3D. It's a top 3 and the other 2 are question marks like the page isn't loading, the bottom two are sort of planes curved inward a bit
17:46:07 <Sgeo_> Maybe I am delirious: I thought describing that would be interesting to anybody
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21:31:14 <izabera> https://az754404.vo.msecnd.net/public/vscode_preview.mp4 official microsoft video
21:38:58 <int-e> Hmm that happened sooner than I expected... a computer program beating a professional Go player...
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21:46:44 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It's probably because macs are supposedly better for programming, and the video should appeal to programmers, not users
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21:48:05 <fizzie> int-e: Is this re our (well, DeepMind just barely counts as Google, but still) thing?
21:48:27 <shachaf> fizzie: Oh, you're part of DeepMind?
21:48:37 <fizzie> shachaf: No, that's why I added the disclaimer.
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21:49:08 <fizzie> If I were I could've used an unqualified "our".
21:49:31 <fizzie> (I've listened to a talk by a DeepMind guy, does that count?)
21:49:33 <shachaf> You might've meant that Google didn't count as "our".
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21:50:04 <shachaf> I saw a DeepMind talk around the time Google bought them.
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21:50:42 <int-e> taking on Lee Sedol next is couragous, if the ratings on http://googleresearch.blogspot.co.at/2016/01/alphago-mastering-ancient-game-of-go.html and on http://www.goratings.org/ are comparable (which I believe they are)
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21:51:07 <int-e> (at least fan hui's rating is a good match)
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22:13:24 <fizzie> I think I'll verify they're actually breaking the BF captcha by enabling it for a second, now that I'm watching.
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22:22:22 <fizzie> (Plot twist: IRC recent-changes feed has broken, wiki's filling up with spam as we speak.)
22:22:25 <fizzie> (Not actually the case, I checked.)
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23:23:33 <lambdabot> oerjan said 9h 9m 20s ago: <hppavilion[1]> Why don't we adapt the pages to be an esolang? <-- been there, done that, see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora%27s_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download
23:23:55 <hppavilion[1]> @tell oerjan Oh, I was wondering about that page's title...
23:25:32 <hppavilion[1]> @tell oerjan Oh, that appears to have been created initially by Taneb. Or was the original page deleted or something?
23:25:57 <hppavilion[1]> I'd like to see an esolang based on phone numbers xD
23:27:22 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: The name was actually picked from web server logs.
23:29:39 <fizzie> 2012-08-18 17:10:53 <elliott> For some reason, Google has tried to request http://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora's_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download.
23:29:42 <fizzie> 2012-03-23 22:23:11 <Taneb> I've got a brilliant esolang 2012-03-23 22:23:15 <Taneb> I just need a name
23:29:45 <fizzie> 2012-03-23 22:24:42 <ion> taneb: Real Fast Nora’s Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
23:30:04 <Taneb> I half-remember that
23:30:39 <fizzie> Er, the first line was 2012-03-18. This wasn't a case of time travel.
23:30:43 <fizzie> Botched while copying.
23:31:14 <shachaf> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is an excellent name.
23:31:19 <fizzie> I wonder if I could just leave the BF captcha in place; it's been over an hour with no new registrations.
23:31:53 <shachaf> I guess the spam originally meant to indicate that the download was real and fast.
23:31:59 <shachaf> As opposed to a fake download.
23:32:06 <shachaf> I always read it in the sense of "really fast".
23:32:24 <shachaf> I prefer that interpretation so I'm going to continue using it.
23:33:17 <Taneb> shachaf, I also interpret as "really fast"
23:34:12 <shachaf> that interpretation is real cool
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23:34:55 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 10m 59s ago: Oh, I was wondering about that page's title...
23:34:55 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 9m 22s ago: Oh, that appears to have been created initially by Taneb. Or was the original page deleted or something?
23:35:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: yeah it was deleted
23:35:37 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well, I was told it was because Google requested that page for an unknown reason
23:37:05 <shachaf> I wonder when the first occurrence of the phrase "Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon" on the Internet was.
23:37:38 <shachaf> It's a shame I don't have a tool for finding out.
23:38:00 <oerjan> the spam page was created on 26 May 2011 and deleted by ais523 the same day.
23:38:46 <oerjan> Taneb recreated it on 23 March 2012.
23:46:28 <fizzie> And elliott mentioned Google tried to fetch it on 18 March 2012.
23:46:52 <fizzie> Probably due to it being in the index from the time the spam existed.
23:49:27 <oerjan> hm i just had a thought
23:50:02 <oerjan> if these spammers, as you mentioned, ask search engines to crawl the created pages immediately...
23:50:29 <oerjan> is there a way for the site owner to disable such unauthorized requests
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23:57:34 <fizzie> I know Google Webmaster Tools can do some sort of operations related to indexing.
23:58:02 <fizzie> Including manually removing URLs.
23:58:16 <oerjan> <fizzie> I think I'll verify they're actually breaking the BF captcha by enabling it for a second, now that I'm watching. <-- did you verify that anyone was _trying_ to register in that period?
23:58:25 <oerjan> maybe the spammers are just resting
23:58:44 <fizzie> There's been still steady flow on the user signup page. I didn't explicitly count attempts.
23:59:28 <oerjan> so, they're not really breaking the bf captcha then?
23:59:32 <fizzie> Someone clicks on the "create account" from Main Page about every 5-15 minutes.
00:00:03 <fizzie> Well, these ones aren't. Maybe the people using humans are resting, and this is just general level of spambot background radiation I'm seeing.
00:00:36 <fizzie> There's a few form submissions as well.
00:01:00 <fizzie> Not within the last hour and a half, though.
00:01:13 <oerjan> <fizzie> Including manually removing URLs. <-- i was more thinking of preventing them from being crawled in the first place, until we've had a chance to delete them.
00:01:46 <fizzie> Yes, I don't know if there's that sort of thing. Maybe just "owning" it would be sufficient for that.
00:02:13 <fizzie> In addition to logins, there's a few attempts to just plain create "((1_888_451_1608))CAS@Quickbooks_tech_Support_Number".
00:02:37 <fizzie> And, in fact, those have managed to get past the CAPTCHA.
00:02:51 <fizzie> Because they've triggered the filter ais523 added.
00:04:20 <fizzie> Both of those attempts were made about 15 minutes after I put the BF captcha back in, and there's been no subsequent attempts.
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00:08:26 <fizzie> Well, I did the verify-ownership thing for esolangs.org.
00:08:33 <fizzie> I don't know if it helps at all.
00:08:40 <HackEgo> Riviera: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:09:09 <izabera> can't find the german version -.-
00:12:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: willkommen: not found
00:12:52 <oerjan> izabera: we may not have one
00:13:02 <HackEgo> wisdom/welcome \ wisdom/welcome.bork \ wisdom/welcome.eo \ wisdom/welcome.es \ wisdom/welcome.fi \ wisdom/welcome.fr \ wisdom/welcome.nl \ wisdom/welcome.sv \ wisdom/welp
00:13:11 <fizzie> Fun facts since I can now see them: there are generally about 80 clicks/day on search results leading to the wiki, and the most popular search query leading there is "ook".
00:13:16 <HackEgo> Willkommen beim internationalen Zentrum für das Design und die Implementierung esoterischer Programmiersprachen! Für weitere Informationen besuchen Sie das Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Für andere Arten der Esoterik gibt es #esoteric auf EFnet oder DALnet.)
00:13:18 <fizzie> The second most popular is "ook programming language".
00:13:39 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/{willkommen,welcome.de}
00:13:44 <fizzie> And "ook language" makes it to #5.
00:14:07 <fizzie> Dumb or not, it's v. popular.
00:14:11 <HackEgo> cat: bienvenue: No such file or directory
00:14:14 <izabera> oerjan: you moved it to wisdom/welcome.de
00:14:19 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome.fr"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome.fr"; }
00:14:27 <fizzie> "ook!" is #8, and "ook ook" is #13.
00:14:52 <oerjan> `` cp bin/{bienvenue,willkommen}; sed -i 's/fr/de/' bin/willkommen
00:15:13 <HackEgo> Riviera: Willkommen beim internationalen Zentrum für das Design und die Implementierung esoterischer Programmiersprachen! Für weitere Informationen besuchen Sie das Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Für andere Arten der Esoterik gibt es #esoteric auf EFnet oder DALnet.)
00:15:29 <oerjan> izabera: just making the naming scheme consistent
00:16:35 <HackEgo> hm: ho: Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur EFnet ou DALnet.)
00:16:43 <fizzie> The Ook! page is also most linked, with 1550 inbound links.
00:16:55 <fizzie> 891 from codeproject.com, and 255 from reddit.
00:17:08 <oerjan> fizzie: i noticed someone deleted Ook! from wikipedia's esolang page the other day
00:17:52 <oerjan> an unfortunate side effect of cleaning up too many examples with no references
00:18:11 <oerjan> (ok so there were only two others deleted, there could easily have been more)
00:18:23 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Because it's a trivial BF derivative the creator of which will burn in hell for making?
00:18:37 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome.de"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome.fr"; }
00:18:38 <izabera> `` sed -i 's/fr/de/' bin/willkommen
00:19:09 <oerjan> i've been tempted to remove some myself, but i'm always afraid that touching that page will make someone else go full deletionist on it
00:19:25 <izabera> do we have a /// interpreter here?
00:20:05 <izabera> i have no idea what it means
00:20:34 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It appears to be a guy wearing glasses, looking from a slight angle. He is suspicious of you.
00:20:53 <izabera> i would never have guessed it
00:21:51 <oerjan> fizzie: so does this mean many of our google hits are from pratchett lovers
00:22:13 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Oh, it must be because you aren't using neoletters.
00:22:47 <hppavilion[1]> In neoletters, the bar on the J (which there is one) only goes left, and it extends all the way to the same x position as the ending of the hook
00:23:35 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: DMM won't burn in hell for making Ook!, it was the first one.
00:24:18 <oerjan> i think he's an atheist though, which may be a bigger problem in theory.
00:24:50 <fizzie> oerjan: Could be. Malbolge comes in third, HQ9+ fourth, to fill the top 5.
00:25:02 <oerjan> `slashes /we do/there is an \/\/\/ interpreter/Yes, we do.
00:25:03 <HackEgo> Can't open /we do/there is an \/\/\/ interpreter/Yes, we do.: No such file or directory at /hackenv/bin/slashes line 7.
00:25:14 -!- p34k has quit.
00:25:26 <oerjan> apparently not very good input
00:25:33 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ #By rjan Johansen, 2009-2012. This file is in the public domain. \ \ $| = 1; \ my $l = 0; \ \ $_ = join '', <>; \ while ($l < 512) { \ if (s!^([^/\\]+)!! or s!^\\(.)!!s) { \ $l += length($1); \ print($1); \ } \ else { \ if (s!^/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/((?:[^/
00:25:57 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/.rjan/Ørjan/' bin/slashes
00:26:02 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ #By rjan Johansen, 2009-2012. This file is in the public domain. \ \ $| = 1; \ my $l = 0; \ \ $_ = join '', <>; \ while ($l < 512) { \ if (s!^([^/\\]+)!! or s!^\\(.)!!s) { \ $l += length($1); \ print($1); \ } \ else { \ if (s!^/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/((?:[^/
00:26:37 <izabera> it's using the right character
00:27:09 <oerjan> izabera: it's latin-1, which is wrong.
00:27:24 <HackEgo> bin/slashes: Perl script, ISO-8859 text executable
00:27:38 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/.rjan/Oerjan/' bin/slashes
00:27:44 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ #By rjan Johansen, 2009-2012. This file is in the public domain. \ \ $| = 1; \ my $l = 0; \ \ $_ = join '', <>; \ while ($l < 512) { \ if (s!^([^/\\]+)!! or s!^\\(.)!!s) { \ $l += length($1); \ print($1); \ } \ else { \ if (s!^/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/((?:[^/
00:27:51 <oerjan> ok it's the . that fails
00:28:19 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/ [^ ]*rjan/Ørjan/' bin/slashes
00:28:26 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ #By rjan Johansen, 2009-2012. This file is in the public domain. \ \ $| = 1; \ my $l = 0; \ \ $_ = join '', <>; \ while ($l < 512) { \ if (s!^([^/\\]+)!! or s!^\\(.)!!s) { \ $l += length($1); \ print($1); \ } \ else { \ if (s!^/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/((?:[^/
00:28:33 <fizzie> `` sed -e '/.rjan/p;d' bin/slashes
00:28:38 <fizzie> `` LC_CTYPE=C sed -e '/.rjan/p;d' bin/slashes
00:28:39 <HackEgo> #By rjan Johansen, 2009-2012. This file is in the public domain.
00:28:45 <fizzie> Too clever sed strikes again.
00:29:15 <HackEgo> aa_DJ \ aa_DJ.utf8 \ aa_ER \ aa_ER@saaho \ aa_ET \ af_ZA \ af_ZA.utf8 \ am_ET \ an_ES \ an_ES.utf8 \ ar_AE \ ar_AE.utf8 \ ar_BH \ ar_BH.utf8 \ ar_DZ \ ar_DZ.utf8 \ ar_EG \ ar_EG.utf8 \ ar_IN \ ar_IQ \ ar_IQ.utf8 \ ar_JO \ ar_JO.utf8 \ ar_KW \ ar_KW.utf8 \ ar_LB \ ar_LB.utf8 \ ar_LY \ ar_LY.utf8 \ ar_MA \ ar_MA.utf8 \ ar_OM \ ar_OM.utf8 \ ar_QA \ ar
00:29:24 <oerjan> ``` sed -i 's/.rjan/Ørjan/' bin/slashes
00:29:25 <HackEgo> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ
00:29:39 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ #By Ørjan Johansen, 2009-2012. This file is in the public domain. \ \ $| = 1; \ my $l = 0; \ \ $_ = join '', <>; \ while ($l < 512) { \ if (s!^([^/\\]+)!! or s!^\\(.)!!s) { \ $l += length($1); \ print($1); \ } \ else { \ if (s!^/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/((?:[^
00:29:49 <fizzie> I keep forgetting what ``` does exactly, though.
00:30:00 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@"
00:30:35 <oerjan> no idea what the part other than LANG=C does
00:30:49 <HackEgo> oerjan tswett tswett oerjan
00:31:17 <shachaf> uh oh, by Ørjan Johansen and tswett
00:31:18 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access interp/sl*: No such file or directory
00:31:27 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access interp/*: No such file or directory
00:31:31 <tswett> How did you know I was here?
00:31:33 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access interps/sl*: No such file or directory
00:31:38 <HackEgo> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ axo \ befunge \ bfjoust \ bf_txtgen \ boof \ build.sh \ cfunge \ c-intercal \ clc-intercal \ dimensifuck \ egobch \ egobf \ fukyorbrane \ gcccomp \ gforth_quit \ ghc \ glass \ glypho \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ Makefile \ malbolge \ pbrain \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda
00:32:11 <oerjan> `file interps/underload
00:32:13 <HackEgo> interps/underload: directory
00:32:29 <tswett> `slashes /|/\//|\\|_|\
00:32:29 <HackEgo> Can't open /|/\//|\\|_|\: No such file or directory at /hackenv/bin/slashes line 7.
00:32:33 <oerjan> izabera: this was copied from EgoBot. ghc doesn't actually work.
00:32:45 <tswett> `run echo '/|/\//|\\|_|\' | slashes
00:32:46 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access interp: No such file or directory
00:32:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ CMD=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f1` \ ARG=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-` \ exec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"
00:33:21 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access ibin/sl*: No such file or directory
00:33:51 <tswett> `run echo '/q/\/*\\.\/..*\//qqqqq*.' | slashes
00:34:33 <tswett> `run echo '/*./..*/*****.' | slashes
00:34:34 <HackEgo> ................................*****
00:35:28 <tswett> `run echo '/*./..*//.*/*\../***.' | slashes
00:35:29 <HackEgo> ***................................................................
00:35:47 <tswett> `run echo '/*./..*//.*/**\./***.' | slashes
00:35:48 <HackEgo> ***********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
00:36:01 <tswett> `run echo '/*./..*//.*/**\./***.' | slashes | wc
00:36:07 <tswett> `run echo '/*./..*//.*/**\./****.' | slashes | wc
00:40:49 <oerjan> !slashes /*./..*/*****.
00:40:50 <EgoBot> ................................*****
00:41:37 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ . lib/interp \ interp_file "./interps/underload/underload.bin -o"
00:42:56 <oerjan> `` cp ibin/{underload,slashes}; sed -i '/interps.*/bin/slashes' ibin/slashes
00:42:59 <HackEgo> sed: can't find label for jump to `in/slashes'
00:43:33 <oerjan> `` cp ibin/{underload,slashes}; sed -i 's/interps.*/bin/slashes"' ibin/slashes
00:43:35 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 17: unknown option to `s'
00:43:53 <oerjan> `` cp ibin/{underload,slashes}; sed -i 's!interps.*!bin/slashes"!' ibin/slashes
00:44:07 <oerjan> `! slashes /*./..*/*****.
00:44:08 <HackEgo> ................................*****
00:45:53 <oerjan> only question is whether to make the bin/slashes work the same...
00:47:39 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/|: No such file or directory
00:53:50 <izabera> for christ sake github i need you to stay alive for 10 minutes
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01:28:40 <izabera> `` base64 -d <<< H4sIAPpsqVYCAy2MywrCMBRE9/mK4dKFQg3WXRb9C3daIbG3GKy5kkayCPl362N1mOHMuN5JSjPD9ptCQfCQyGgcLW13XtmWg9bGVPp2K2SCY460Re5JAtKNke08k5okwsMHFGO03lc1iuLrTUBNsSc/XCqa3OIXqlZHe2dIYIySQ4unXRb4BBvlFca/t+uGz0rTehb4DTBBR8etAAAA | zcat > 99
01:28:56 <HackEgo> 99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer. \ Take one down, pass it around, 98 bottles of beer on the wall. \ 98 bottles of beer on the wall, 98 bottles of beer. \ Take one down, pass it around, 97 bottles of beer on the wall. \ 97 bottles of beer on the wall, 97 bottles of beer. \ Take one down, pass it around, 96 bottles of beer on the w
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01:36:18 <HackEgo> b=bottle a=({"no more $b"s,1\ $b,{2..99}" $b"s}" of beer") w="on the wall" \ for i in {99..0} \ do \ echo "${a[i]^} $w, ${a[i]}. \ Take one down, pass it around, ${a[i-1]} $w." \ done
01:36:47 <oerjan> oh it was just a script, i somehow read that as being the song itself
01:37:26 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
01:38:14 <boily> quintopia: I was at the corner store to grab a carton of milk. as I passed the chips stand, I saw that there was a limited edition of Doritos.
01:38:32 <boily> I grabbed a bag for you. will be posted shortly.
01:38:52 <boily> oerjan: how's the Norwegian life?
01:45:21 <izabera> best i can do is 224 bytes :\
01:46:03 <izabera> `` base64 -d <<< H4sIAAhyqVYCAy2NQQ6CMBRE9z3F+MNCE2zEHQvWXsCdYtLKJxKx39ASMA13F9DVzLzMZGxhJYSWYYptJCd4ScdILPk0u86axqPWeT7RymaRGpa5ox2GgsQhPBiDaVtSY7Gls3kyxDEqGVyKt/EeTYDppHcVgU6CIOvGh+XIuAq2/8DLi9dr2qlaOjRoHGKea32YVCWK7w8BJdFcmvI2IRlS/MKkVRLHy2Z2f7TPyqWgad45/gLSidNX4AAAAA== | zcat > 99
01:46:24 <HackEgo> Take one down, pass it around, no more bottles of beer on the wall. \ No more bottles of beer on the wall, no more bottles of beer. \ Go to the store and buy some more, 99 bottles of beer on the wall.
01:47:38 <oerjan> it's like horrible, except parts are also falling off hth
01:47:38 <boily> `learn norrible isn't not horrible nor not horrible, but both.
01:47:42 <HackEgo> Learned 'norrible': norrible isn't not horrible nor not horrible, but both.
01:47:53 <HackEgo> bash: 129: No such file or directory
01:48:27 <tswett> I was thinking that someone had, as a joke, made "bash" a script which would output the n bottles of beer song.
01:48:50 <oerjan> tswett: you must not be familiar with izabera's work.
01:51:45 <FireFly> why, the 'bash' script could be written in bash itself
01:51:48 <tswett> 7 bottles of beer on the wall, 7 bottles of beer. Split them in three, add one more with glee, 22 bottles of beer on the wall.
01:52:07 <tswett> 22 bottles of beer on the wall, 22 bottles of beer. Take half of 'em down, and pass 'em around, 11 bottles of beer on the wall.
01:52:18 <tswett> 11 bottles of beer on the wall, 11 bottles of beer. Split them in three, add one more with glee, 34 bottles of beer on the wall.
01:53:15 <tswett> 34 bottles of beer on the wall, 34 bottles of beer. Take half of 'em down, and pass 'em around, 17 bottles of beer on the wall.
01:53:26 <tswett> 17 bottles of beer on the wall, 17 bottles of beer. Split them in three, add one more with glee, 52 bottles of beer on the wall.
01:53:38 <tswett> 52 bottles of beer on the wall, 52 bottles of beer. Take half of 'em down, and pass 'em around, 26 bottles of beer on the wall.
01:53:50 <tswett> 26 bottles of beer on the wall, 26 bottles of beer. Take half of 'em down, and pass 'em around, 13 bottles of beer on the wall.
01:54:02 <tswett> 13 bottles of beer on the wall, 13 bottles of beer. Split them in three, add one more with glee, 40 bottles of beer on the wall.
01:54:13 <tswett> 40 bottles of beer on the wall, 40 bottles of beer. Take half of 'em down, and pass 'em around, 20 bottles of beer on the wall.
01:55:56 <izabera> `` base64 -d <<< H4sIALB0qVYCAy1NSw7CIBDdc4rRdKGZStQdi669gDtbE7BjJFbGAKY1yN1tq6v3yfuYynCMHYGuVskxPtgTFqYO5W6EMu2lVCrPTka+oiHya+grdhhvhL3uOjFUq6O+E7IjbLl3JT51CGgjas8v18KBMfKcD3Ha165F83pj4AfNj2txZQ8WrIOklJTbLFoWdLkxLIukT7Y5Zyj6En4iS1Gk4bQY2d/a7JopIJdjz9EnekCo4QsJzQp13QAAAA== | zcat > 99
01:56:13 <HackEgo> 4 bottles of beer on the wall, 4 bottles of beer. \ Take one down, pass it around, 3 bottles of beer on the wall. \ 3 bottles of beer on the wall, 3 bottles of beer. \ Take one down, pass it around, 2 bottles of beer on the wall. \ 2 bottles of beer on the wall, 2 bottles of beer. \ Take one down, pass it around, 1 bottle of beer on the wall. \ 1 b
01:57:50 <izabera> oooh wait i can make it shorter
01:58:28 <izabera> `` base64 -d <<< H4sIAGN1qVYCAy2NwQ6CMBBE7/2K1XCALDbqjRjO/oA3xKSVNRCxa9oSNLX/LqCnmXmZzOhSs/c9gSrTYBgfbAkTfXb5bpI87KUsiriQiHxDTWQzGEs26FvCUfW9eJXpSd0J2RA2PJocn8o57Dwqy4Np4Mjoeek7P+8r06Ae3uj4QctjJm5soYPOQCgKKbfxEARdW4Z1ElTV1ZcIyZjDL0QpkvCqVpP7o82ungtyLeLHW0A4wxcbDi9T2QAAAA== | zcat > 99
01:59:03 <FireFly> You could skip storing it in a file and oneline it with | tee >(wc) | tail -n 3
01:59:18 <izabera> :P not trying to golf *that* part
01:59:35 <FireFly> ugh. I hate when I accidentally lose an eye
02:00:31 <FireFly> golfed bash is pretty crazy
02:05:10 <izabera> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-malbolge-995.html
02:08:59 <lifthrasiir> we need a separate category of code golfing: "code gzolfing"
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02:12:34 <FireFly> I guess aiming for shortest ...yeah
02:12:56 <izabera> i only gzipped it to make it easier to paste here
02:13:17 <FireFly> if you count gzipped bytes it changes what's expensive quite a lot
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02:29:48 <izabera> like printing the first 100 primes
02:30:08 <izabera> now write two versions of a program that solves that task
02:30:24 <izabera> one must be longer than the other
02:30:44 <izabera> and the compressed version of the longest one must be shortest than the compressed version of the shortest one
02:32:31 <lifthrasiir> izabera: zopfli gave the same size for given data
02:32:49 <lifthrasiir> guess it is almost unable to leverage LZ77
02:41:55 <FireFly> izabera: just name two identifiers something long but with a single-character difference vs. something shorter but with less overlap
02:42:12 <FireFly> so taht the former compresses better than the latter
02:43:36 <izabera> ok i didn't really think about it, no wonder it's stupid
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03:15:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:0(nop^)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46315&oldid=46210 * John Misciagno * (+170) /* Why is there a distinction between functions and strings? */
03:37:12 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
03:42:34 <hppavilion[1]> When a TI program halts, it is said to have "died"
03:42:50 <hppavilion[1]> The most important TI instruction is ; or @ or H or something, which halts the program
03:43:33 <hppavilion[1]> Which prolongs the time before @ (which MUST be the last instruction) is reached
03:43:53 <hppavilion[1]> You can do some other stuff in between, but if the program timer reaches a large but randomly-selected number, it keels over and dies. Painfully.
03:45:22 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, and the instructions executed in between do fairly menial tasks. It's all pointless in the end; eventually the program counter will hit @ and the program will die
03:46:13 <hppavilion[1]> (Because it terminates after a given (but probabilistic) number of cycles if it doesn't self-terminate)
03:48:08 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, and the program has a concept of how great its life is going. If its internal "pain" counter goes to high, it will self-modify so that there's a @ in the nearer future
03:48:32 <hppavilion[1]> NOPs make it feel better, because they're vacation days
03:50:09 <hppavilion[1]> (This isn't reflective of my feelings on life, so don't worry xD)
03:56:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[The Inevitable]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46316 * Hppavilion1 * (+742) Saving before I accidentally erase it somehow
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08:53:10 <hppavilion[2]> \oren\: Today's xkcd what if (or maybe it's from the past) wasn't destructive at all.
09:00:18 <mroman> the europa water siphon?
09:02:30 <mroman> YouTube saying "your browser isn't supported anymore"
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09:43:05 <fizzie> The Register: "Since 1632 PT (1232 UTC, 1132 AEDT), [github] has been down." They're a UK (sort-of) publication, surely they should be able to figure out that's not "1232 UTC".
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09:48:28 <mroman> I'm using the universal moon clock anyway
09:52:56 <mroman> I don't know how a time based on the moon could work
09:53:17 <mroman> but probably one moon is how long the moon takes to circle the earth
09:53:28 <mroman> and then you use 1000 moon ticks
09:53:32 <mroman> one moon has 1000 moon ticks
09:55:00 <mroman> a moon has roughly 655.7208 hours
09:55:19 <mroman> > 60*((27.3217*24)/1000)
09:56:17 <mroman> > (60*((27.3217*24)/1000))/4
09:56:29 <mroman> > (60*((27.3217*24)/1000))/8
09:56:42 <mroman> so 1/8th of a tick is about 5min
09:56:50 <mroman> that's kinda convenient.
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11:17:47 <fizzie> This train's announcements seem to be playing at approximately half the intended speed.
11:18:04 <fizzie> It's a very low-pitch voice as a result.
11:18:33 <Taneb> I was once in a train that was playing the announcements for the return journey
11:18:37 <Taneb> But at the right place
11:18:48 <Taneb> So, as I was leaving York, it said "Now approaching York"
11:19:27 <fizzie> One of the trains was off by one station in the announcements, that's also very confusing.
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12:07:10 <FireFly> I've had that happen once, it's pretty confusing indeed
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12:33:25 <mroman> I can't tell parsec to use two chars lookahead can I?
12:34:54 <mroman> http://codepad.org/BZNCCnfW <- this technically works
12:34:57 <mroman> but the try there is horrible
12:35:01 <mroman> and makes error reporting shit
12:35:27 <mroman> it will think the < from </b> starts a new tag
12:35:35 <mroman> but then the noneOf "/" kicks in
12:35:38 <mroman> and it needs to backtrack
12:36:06 <int-e> mroman: `try` is there for such purposes
12:36:14 <mroman> also if you have an error deeply nested such as
12:36:29 <mroman> <div><p><span><br></span></p></div>
12:36:38 <mroman> the error will be reported at the location of div
12:36:47 <mroman> when the offending location is actually where the <br> is
12:36:59 <mroman> so you get error on line 1 instead of error on line 4 or something
12:37:39 <mroman> (at least when used like in my codepad)
12:37:55 <mroman> it backtracks all the time and the error reporting doesn't tell you the offending location
12:38:55 <int-e> perhaps you should try (no pun intended) char '<' `notFollowedBy` char '/'
12:39:46 <int-e> that should keep the backtracking local
12:40:48 <int-e> (fun fact: `notFollowedBy` uses `try` internally)
12:41:21 <int-e> uh, but it ha a different type than I want.
12:41:40 <int-e> so try (char '<' >> notFollowedBy (char '/')) ... sigh
12:42:03 <mroman> but the error reporting is the same
12:42:47 <mroman> http://codepad.org/OqFh4iOG <- like that
12:43:36 <mroman> (you still need the try for parseNode, otherwise it wont work)
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14:43:43 <mroman> reverse . dropWhile (isSpace) . reverse . dropWhile (isSpace) . map head . groupBy (\a b -> and [isSpace a, isSpace b])
14:43:47 <mroman> this seems awfully overcomplicated
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14:44:34 <mroman> intercalate " " . words
14:44:37 <mroman> should do the same thing
14:47:01 <myname> i also like how and [isSpace a, isSpace b] is even longer than isSpace a && isSpace b
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14:47:45 <lambdabot> ‘BSC.group’ (imported from Data.ByteString.Char8),
14:48:20 <mroman> @define groupOn f = groupBy (\a b -> f a && f b)
14:48:29 <mroman> > groupOn (isSpace) " hi there "
14:48:31 <lambdabot> [" ","h","i"," ","t","h","e","r","e"," "]
14:48:39 <fizzie> That's the coupon site, right?
14:48:57 <mroman> the coupon trading place
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15:24:12 <HackEgo> nvd is what Taneb calls himself when he wants to feel professional.
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16:00:24 <oerjan> parseNodes = many (try parseNode <|> parseTextNode)
16:00:55 <oerjan> @tell mroman parseNodes = many (parseTextNode <|> parseNode)
16:02:43 <myname> i have to learn what this does
16:03:12 <oerjan> @tell mroman The trick, I think, is to never put try around something bigger than what you need to commit to the choice.
16:03:41 <lambdabot> Alternative f => f a -> f a -> f a
16:04:38 <myname> maybe i have to learn to use haskell that way
16:05:25 <oerjan> @tell mroman Also I'm pretty sure spaces is already optional...
16:06:45 <myname> are there volunteers to rewrite provided haskell code into something more idiomatic?
16:07:19 <oerjan> technically parsec's version is not quite the same as the Alternative one, unless you are careful what you import
16:07:37 <oerjan> for historical reasons, it has different precedence
16:08:31 <oerjan> myname: there's a codereview.stackexchange iirc
16:08:50 <oerjan> i'm not there, though. in fact recently i'm not on stackoverflow either.
16:09:10 <myname> i never was there to begin with
16:10:18 <oerjan> i dropped it when the backlog of every other website started growing.
16:10:31 <oerjan> and my computer crashed
16:11:38 <oerjan> myname: i've found i no longer manage to follow all the websites i used to.
16:11:57 <oerjan> i haven't been up to date on esolangs for months
16:12:48 <oerjan> and gave up trying to catch up some time in october.
16:13:11 <oerjan> which was about when my computer crashed.
16:13:43 <oerjan> i'm on the fence on whether to try catching up to /r/haskell
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16:22:11 <nvd> oerjan, how is the computer situation, by the way?
16:22:48 <oerjan> it seems to be working now, except the other day the left arrow key started missing presses
16:23:10 <nvd> One of my keyboards died last week
16:23:15 <nvd> I'm now down to only one keyboard
16:23:35 <nvd> Still no excuse to not having backup keyboards
16:23:59 <oerjan> i have no idea how i would manage to use it with a backup keyboard.
16:25:01 <nvd> Does it have a USB port?
16:25:07 <oerjan> there is no room on my lap, you see.
16:25:47 <nvd> Could you get a footstool
16:26:12 <oerjan> i have a hard time enough sitting comfortable as it is.
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16:58:55 <FireFly> You could put the keyboard on top of the laptop's keyboard
17:00:35 <fizzie> You could put the keyboard on top of your head.
17:01:03 <fizzie> A flexible one. Then you get a scalp massage while you type.
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19:43:34 <Taneb> snakes and ladders
19:44:17 <Taneb> Computers haven't beaten us at that
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20:17:15 <int-e> Arimaa doesn't look safe though, probably just needs a determined group of people like the alphago team...
20:17:34 <int-e> (though it's awfully hard to predict such things, of course)
20:17:47 <Sgeo> izabera, is arimaa the last what?
20:18:12 <int-e> game where computers don't beat expert human players
20:18:15 <izabera> sorry arimaa was beaten in 2015
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20:19:43 <Sgeo> Does this mean that Arimaa being hard for computers will stop being a selling point?
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20:20:18 <int-e> it may be that the deep convolutional neural networks are just the thing that robbed us of our visual processing advantage...
20:22:08 <int-e> So what's left ... natural language translation, maybe.
20:22:52 <izabera> powerball is still unbeaten
20:23:13 <FireFly> Huh. I didn't know about Arimaa
20:23:15 <int-e> games of chance, obviously
20:23:52 <int-e> (pure chance, that is. backgammon is out, for example.)
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21:19:13 <zzo38> Make up the programming language where the Quickbooks telephone number is valid program (perhaps the simplest cat program?)
21:23:35 <zzo38> Currently the DNS for "zzo38computer.org" is not updated yet, the address is 24.207.50.123
21:28:40 <zzo38> I don't know. I notified them a few minutes ago
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21:34:55 <int-e> the A record has a lifetime of an hour, apparently
21:35:34 <int-e> (the new one does; I'm assuming it's the same for the old one)
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21:38:05 <int-e> hmm, new esowiki category: spam inspired programming languages
21:44:59 <ais523> int-e: we have some of those already
21:45:22 <ais523> see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge/index.php
21:47:26 <ais523> we also have http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php
21:47:38 <ais523> (the spambots of the time had quite a distinctive page naming style)
21:49:03 <int-e> and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora%27s_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download
21:49:22 <ais523> that was actually a spambot name?
21:49:29 <ais523> I thought it was just designed to look like them
21:50:06 <ais523> there's also https://esolangs.org/wiki/Twisted_Python_Chat_Server which was spambot-created and doesn't have a corresponding esolang /yet/, but really needs one
21:51:39 <int-e> 2012-03-18: 15:11:01: <elliott> For some reason, Google has tried to request http://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora's_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download. / 15:11:08: <elliott> Oh, it was a spma.
21:51:54 <mauris> i hope the resulting esolang, if any, has nothing to do with twisted or python or chat servers
21:57:41 <zzo38> Is it possible with Firefox to tell it to run a XUL application but to use a native program as the back-end to communicate with the GUI program (without using TCP/IP to do this communication)?
22:04:15 <fizzie> ais523: oerjan reported you had in fact deleted the original spam.
22:04:54 <fizzie> ais523: Maybe a year or two before elliott said the comment int-e quoted, and Taneb made it the name of their language, at ion's suggestion (a few days later).
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22:05:40 <ais523> fizzie: I've deleted so many spam pages that I don't remember all their names
22:06:09 <fizzie> How many spam pages must a person delete, before you call them a person?
22:06:46 <fizzie> Hm. The allusion to the song doesn't really work terribly well after making it gender-neutral.
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22:10:49 <fizzie> Incidentally, I've finally got a date for the thesis defence.
22:10:53 <fizzie> Latest stupid bureaucracy thing: I had done & gotten approval for the theoretical study part of the degree already in 2011 or so, but the deadline for using the old 60 course credit point degree requirements was Dec 31, 2015, so now I needed to send a new "this is my study plan" form, get it accepted by a professor, and submit it for approval by the doctoral degree council.
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22:11:01 <fizzie> And the new study structure prescribes a minimum of 40 and a *hard maximum of 45* course credits, so I had to leave 4 (our of 12) courses completely out of the degree. So they're in effect entirely wasted.
22:11:08 <fizzie> (Not that the list of courses makes any difference in anything, but it's still a bit of a shame.)
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22:37:16 <zzo38> Does Node.js now includes ES6?
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22:56:31 <oerjan> <fizzie> ais523: Maybe a year or two before elliott said the comment int-e quoted, and Taneb made it the name of their language, at ion's suggestion (a few days later). <-- 10 months iirc
22:56:57 <oerjan> y'all fellow admins can look it up in the deleted revisions
22:57:46 <oerjan> (well, there's only that one.)
23:02:43 <fizzie> 10 months, 2 years -- close enough for government work.
23:08:29 <zzo38> Have you used the newer JavaScript features such as ArrayBuffer and the "..." operator and so on?
23:26:22 <zzo38> For example you can write: this.serial=String.fromCharCode(...mem.slice(18,24));
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23:38:02 <zzo38> Do you like to play the "Amoebax" game vs yourself? (You have to edit the configuration file by text-editor, as the GUI won't let you to assign the same keys for both players)
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01:34:44 <\oren\> I built this abomination for fast trans-continental flight and landing with low tech: http://postimg.org/image/9fqqu995h/
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01:38:38 <\oren\> yes, that is an upside down command module
01:39:28 <\oren\> today I'm going to visit the north pole with it
01:43:21 <\oren\> the idea is that if you have reaction wheels and SAS you can fly with engine exahust directed slightly down, instead of having wings
01:44:04 <\oren\> (Also, every time I build a plane it crashes on takeoff)
01:53:05 <oerjan> crash early, crash often
01:59:52 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Perhaps aerospace engineering is not your forte?
02:04:03 <\oren\> I'm working on an improvement
02:04:49 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I don't think you can improve that; you need to scrap it and stop playing KSP.
02:04:52 <\oren\> it will still be a manned spider thing, but it will have better thruse
02:05:11 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: If I were me, I wouldn't even let you be a /passenger/ on a /normal/ airplane
02:05:48 <\oren\> hmm, maybe some air intakes on the bottom?
02:06:55 <\oren\> yeah, that will assist in flying backward to slow down
02:07:48 <\oren\> also, an AI pod to allow manned or unmanned operation
02:08:01 <HackEgo> [U+FFFC OBJECT REPLACEMENT CHARACTER]
02:09:51 <\oren\> the upside down command module does mean that the pilot can see the ground while landing
02:11:35 <oerjan> @addquote <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: If I were me, I wouldn't even let you be a /passenger/ on a /normal/ airplane
02:11:41 <oerjan> `addquote <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: If I were me, I wouldn't even let you be a /passenger/ on a /normal/ airplane
02:11:46 <HackEgo> 1262) <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: If I were me, I wouldn't even let you be a /passenger/ on a /normal/ airplane
02:14:19 <oerjan> `addquote <\oren\> the upside down command module does mean that the pilot can see the ground while landing
02:14:22 <HackEgo> 1263) <\oren\> the upside down command module does mean that the pilot can see the ground while landing
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02:16:48 <zzo38> What are your opinions on ZORKMID, JSZM, and/or Famizork? (These are Z-machine interpreters I have written and/or in process of being written)
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02:46:58 <zzo38> New idea of Magic: the Gathering cards is: {2}: Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature you control. ;; {T}: Each player gains life equal to the total number of -1/-1 counters on permanents that player controls. You gain life equal to the number of permanents you don't control with +1/+1 counters on them. ;; Persist
02:52:00 <\oren\> from my new design I have found that the astronaut can climb down ladders upside down
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02:58:23 <pikhq> Oh, wait, no, that'd still be {2}
02:58:29 <pikhq> Clearly I am crazy.
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03:15:09 <\oren\> why can't I do an EVA while hovering in midair
03:18:41 <zzo38> pikhq: When you add mana into your mana pool, adding generic mana results in colorless mana, but if a cost is generic or colorless mana is difference
03:23:18 <pikhq> zzo38: Yes, there is a difference. {C} in a cost can *only* be paid by colorless mana, not by colored mana.
03:23:50 <pikhq> ... And {1} or similar can no longer appear in "add X to your mana pool" phrases.
03:28:05 <zzo38> Yes I know that is what I meant
03:28:37 <zzo38> However, if something says "Add {1} to your mana pool" is still results in colorless mana in the current rules, it is just that they no longer do it.
03:28:45 <zzo38> The rules do not prohibit it though
03:29:36 <zzo38> It is now rule 106.10
03:32:42 <zzo38> Rules 106.8, 106.9, and 106.10 describe what happen if you try to add hybrid/Phyrexian/generic mana into your mana pool. (The rule that is now 106.10 used to be 107.4c, although the new way that rule is written is more logical.)
03:57:21 <zzo38> Another idea can be: "Enchanted creature gets -1/+1 for each counter on it."
04:04:59 <\oren\> yah, so having a intake on the back allows me to fly backward to slow down at near supersonic
04:05:32 <pikhq> zzo38: Oh, huh. Didn't realize they covered it still.
04:05:48 <pikhq> Probably to account for accidental templating errors or something.
04:06:04 <zzo38> "Look at the top three cards of your library. Exile one of them, ante one of them, and reveal the remaining one and put it into your hand."
04:06:56 <zzo38> pikhq: Actually I think a reason would be due to something that adds the mana cost of something into your mana pool, although it does do that too
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04:10:17 <\oren\> http://postimg.org/image/49hmgng6d/
04:11:42 <\oren\> I'm going to try to land at the south pole
04:18:32 <zzo38> Can a printer be connected to the Famicom tape interface?
04:44:28 <pikhq> Whaddya mean, "tape interface"? The sound ports out of the keyboard?
04:44:48 <pikhq> Or do you mean the expansion port?
04:47:02 <pikhq> Anyways, probably but it won't be compatible with existing Famiclone software that can print. That's done via the cartridge port.
04:48:04 <pikhq> https://133fsb.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/interface_schematic.png Using something like this.
04:49:43 <zzo38> Yes I mean the sound port from the keyboard
04:52:26 <zzo38> That design seem it needs the controller port as well as cartridge?
04:52:52 <zzo38> Does any emulator have the capability to emulate this interface?
04:53:17 <pikhq> How so? It's only reading the data and address lines off the cartridge slot
04:53:19 <pikhq> Not to my knowledge.
04:53:57 <pikhq> P1 data. Missed that.
04:54:49 <pikhq> zzo38: Anyways. The reason for this interface isn't some hobbyist attempt to get it working, it's a reverse engineering of an apparent de facto standard amongst Famiclone makers.
04:57:26 <zzo38> But with some mappers it might not be compatible
04:57:36 <pikhq> Oh, almost certainly. :)
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04:59:03 <zzo38> However, I wanted to be able to use printer interface to implement script on Famizork so that if scripting is turned on then it can send to the printer as well as to the screen
05:01:05 <zzo38> The design there isn't very good, especially the use of P1 data, it is a stupid design. Use with the tape port may be better, I expect
05:02:09 <pikhq> It's a Famiclone interface, of course it won't be *good*. :)
05:02:22 * Sgeo would love a hypercard.js
05:02:29 <Sgeo> I never got to try the real HyperCard
05:03:33 <zzo38> pikhq: That is why, a better one can be made up instead.
05:04:20 <zzo38> Sgeo: I do not know HyperCard either, or how to implement in JavaScript or in C
05:11:48 <\oren\> The republican debate was today but I didn't watch it because trump said he wasn't gonna show.
05:12:19 <\oren\> I did hypercard on the school computers in primary school.
05:12:44 <pikhq> I'm full up on schadenfreude personally.
05:12:59 <pikhq> Actually, not schadenfreude.
05:13:07 <pikhq> Full up on... Whatever watching that train wreck is.
05:19:00 <zzo38> Is there any documentation for node-x11?
06:12:08 <zzo38> Someone has asked me about a JavaScript program I partially wrote, "Does it work on older browsers if you run it through the Babel transpiler?" Do you know anything about that?
06:13:47 <zzo38> However, JSZM does not even require a web browser; it is meant to be compatible with any ES6-compliant JavaScript implementation.
06:19:34 <zzo38> I have never heard about any "Babel transpiler" so I wouldn't know and I hope you know?
06:27:02 <izabera> babel is a thingy that converts new js to old js so old js implementations can run it https://babeljs.io/
06:34:39 <zzo38> It doesn't seem to include ArrayBuffer, although if the JavaScript implementation you are using provides something similar then it might be possible to use that with it, or just reimplement it
06:36:18 <zzo38> The Z-machine implementation made in C, JavaScript, 6502-assembly-language, can be compared to tell the difference of how to do it!
06:44:31 <\oren\> I don't have pwered wheels yet, so I made a jet powered land vehicle
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07:56:39 <lambdabot> oerjan said 15h 55m 43s ago: parseNodes = many (parseTextNode <|> parseNode)
07:56:39 <lambdabot> oerjan said 15h 53m 26s ago: The trick, I think, is to never put try around something bigger than what you need to commit to the choice.
07:56:39 <lambdabot> oerjan said 15h 51m 13s ago: Also I'm pretty sure spaces is already optional...
07:57:33 <mroman> @tell oerjan while that is true, it wouldn't fix anything in this case. The problem is that parsec just looks at the next <
07:57:55 <mroman> @tell oerjan and thus can't decide between a new nested tag, or if the old tag is being closed so it always assumes a new nested tag first.
07:59:00 <mroman> @tell oerjan you need the try for parseNode because of that.
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08:36:25 <mroman> twitter isn't allowing me to upload a profile pic?
08:39:10 <mroman> but it seems to be a referer problem
08:40:30 <izabera> that's their polite way to say it
08:50:41 <mroman> javascript's subtraction binds tighter?
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09:45:16 <mroman> so '5'+3-3 is ('5'+3)-3 / 50
09:45:51 <mroman> and '5'-3+3 is ('5'-3)+3 => 5
09:46:21 <myname> wait, '5'+3 is 53 an '5'-3 is 2?
09:46:59 <mroman> (It is. num + str is concat str and num - str is subtract)
09:48:11 <myname> '53'-'3' is 50 then? okay
09:51:00 <mroman> and (+!![])+(+!![]) is 2
09:54:12 <mroman> You don't know javascript until you can tell what
09:54:15 <mroman> '3' + +!+![] + -!!{}+ +!![]
09:55:50 <myname> well, i guess, +!+![] is the same as +!![]
09:56:12 <myname> tjerefore i guess it is 301
09:59:51 <mroman> +!+![] is 1, -!!{} is -1 and +!![] is 1
10:00:16 <lifthrasiir> I knew that ![] is true and !{} is false...
10:00:18 <mroman> it's just concatenating 1 -1 1 to the string
10:00:35 <mroman> because str + num is string concatenation
10:01:35 <lifthrasiir> so +!+![] == +!+false == +!0 == 1, -!!{} == -!false == -1 (duh bad calculation), and +!![] == +!false == 1
10:01:39 <myname> mroman: the solution is '31-11'
10:04:44 <mroman> typeof('hi'.charAt(-1)) == typeof('hi'[-1])
10:05:43 <mroman> typeof('hi'.charAt(-1)) == typeof('hi'[-1]) is false
10:05:58 <mroman> (charAt returns a string)
10:06:17 <mroman> at lesat not for negative indices
10:06:35 <mroman> charAt returns an empty string
10:06:56 <mroman> but [] returns a string if the index is valid
10:08:08 <mroman> so typeof(x[i]) == typeof('') is a neat esoteric test to see if the string x is at least (i-1) chars long
10:10:14 <mroman> also String([1,2,[2,3],3]) produces just 1,2,2,3,3
10:10:26 <mroman> it flattens the whole array o_O
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10:44:43 <HackEgo> opposite/Eht etisoppo yrogetac fo a yrogetac si tsuj taht yrogetac, tub sdrawkcab.
10:45:59 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
10:48:33 <int-e> `le/rn precision/78.75211317% of the time precision is totally overrated.
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10:50:08 <mroman> where did you get that number from?
10:50:28 <mroman> `learn studies show lots of things. Nobody reads them, though.
10:50:31 <HackEgo> Learned 'studie': studies show lots of things. Nobody reads them, though.
10:51:08 <mroman> `learn studies show lots of things. Nobody reads them, though. Also this study contradicts this other study.
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10:51:11 <HackEgo> Learned 'studie': studies show lots of things. Nobody reads them, though. Also this study contradicts this other study.
10:51:21 <mroman> `learn studies show lots of things. Nobody reads them, though. Also: this study contradicts this other study.
10:51:25 <HackEgo> Learned 'studie': studies show lots of things. Nobody reads them, though. Also: this study contradicts this other study.
10:51:47 <mroman> `? a study is mostly useless until backed up by further studies.
10:51:48 <HackEgo> a study is mostly useless until backed up by further studies.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
10:51:52 <mroman> `? a study is mostly useless until backed up by further studies. See studies.
10:51:55 <HackEgo> a study is mostly useless until backed up by further studies. See studies.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
10:52:05 <mroman> `learn study a study is mostly useless until backed up by further studies. See studies.
10:52:09 <HackEgo> Learned 'study': study a study is mostly useless until backed up by further studies. See studies.
10:52:12 <mroman> that might be wrong now
10:52:25 <mroman> `learn a study is mostly useless until backed up by further studies. See studies.
10:52:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'study': a study is mostly useless until backed up by further studies. See studies.
10:52:47 <fizzie> Oh, it handles indefinite articles like that? So advanced.
10:53:11 <mroman> according to the majority of readers of the newspaper 20min the zika outbreak is due to pharmacompanies wanting more money.
10:53:16 <fizzie> sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[:;,.!?]\? .*//') verily.
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10:56:54 <mroman> +'3' + +!+![] + -!!{}+ +!![] on the other hand produces 4
11:14:04 <int-e> `learn Precession is the opposite of succession. It is the joy of children and the curse of first year physics students.
11:14:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'precession': Precession is the opposite of succession. It is the joy of children and the curse of first year physics students.
11:17:56 <mroman> `? physics is where math is actually used.
11:17:57 <HackEgo> physics is where math is actually used.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
11:19:24 <mroman> `? Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
11:19:25 <HackEgo> Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch is a village in Wales.
11:19:48 <mroman> this looks hard to pronounce, but I guess it's easy as a speaker
11:20:04 <mroman> Superduperinteressantesandersonnegelegenesdorf
11:20:23 <mroman> Superduperinteressantesandersonnegelegenesdorfmitoderohnesaheistunsdabeiabsolutscheissegal
11:21:13 <mroman> `learn Superduperinteressantesandersonnegelegenesdorfmitoderohnesahneistunsdabeiabsolutscheissegal is where mroman lives.
11:21:16 <HackEgo> Learned 'superduperinteressantesandersonnegelegenesdorfmitoderohnesahneistunsdabeiabsolutscheissegal': Superduperinteressantesandersonnegelegenesdorfmitoderohnesahneistunsdabeiabsolutscheissegal is where mroman lives.
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11:45:06 <HackEgo> password/The password of the month is 'PlayItSweetly,TakeMeDown,Oh,Jazzman'
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12:10:41 <lambdabot> LOWI 291150Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW060 09/02 Q1030 NOSIG
12:12:11 <boily> int-ello. what's a sahe?
12:12:17 <lambdabot> CYUL 291210Z 11005KT 2 1/2SM -SN OVC035 M00/M02 A2947 RMK SC8 SLP983
12:12:29 <int-e> a typo for "sahne", mroman corrected it in the actual `learn
12:12:36 <boily> cow snow weather. cnoweather.
12:13:26 * boily is confused by sahe crean
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12:27:42 <lambdabot> EGLL 291220Z AUTO 23022KT 9999 OVC020 12/08 Q1017 TEMPO BKN014
12:29:00 <fizzie> Though I can't generally get any feeling for the knots, I always have to translate them to m/s, which is how wind speed is always reported in Finnish (boating, and otherwise) weather reports.
12:29:57 <fizzie> In addition to the constant rain, it was advertised there'd be storms here, but I haven't really seen any. :/
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13:24:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46317&oldid=46275 * YoYoYonnY * (+114) /* Conventions */
13:28:26 <lambdabot> ESSB 291320Z 17010KT 9999 SCT020 BKN031 OVC110 05/01 Q0996 R12/19//79
13:29:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46318&oldid=46086 * 175.116.127.44 * (+201)
13:48:37 <mroman> MAN FUCK JAVA ECOSYSTEM
13:50:49 <mroman> everytime you see a "classnotfound" or "nosuchmethod"
13:51:01 <mroman> then it tells you that maven is fucking broken piece of useless shit
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14:03:52 <mroman> IllegalStateException: !STOPPED
14:03:59 <mroman> for fucks sake that's not how you should do error handling
14:05:13 <mroman> java.lang.AbstractMethodError: javax.ws.rs.core.UriBuilder.uri(Ljava/lang/String;)Ljavax/ws/rs/core/UriBuilder;
14:05:20 <mroman> wtf is an AbstractMethodError o_O
14:08:41 <mroman> time spent doing productive work: 1min
14:08:51 <mroman> time spent fixing maven issues, dependency issues, runtime issues: 7d
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14:22:12 <mroman> maven is really shitty at all these dependency things
14:22:25 <mroman> it allows you to use incompatible dependencies without even warning you
14:22:44 <mroman> and it doesn't warn you if you only used the *-core but not the *-common and you actually need both for anything to work
14:22:49 <mroman> that's bullshit in my opinion
14:23:22 <mroman> well.. I've asked stackoverflow now :)
14:27:37 <mroman> might be the hadoop package
14:27:41 <mroman> which uses an old jersey version
14:32:19 <mroman> so Fin1te actually needed to find data that when used as input to Deflate, produced JavaScript as its compressed output.
14:33:37 <mroman> well to find something that compresses to "foo"
14:33:47 <mroman> I'd naively would just decompress "foo"
14:34:40 <mroman> also something is happening in my liver
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16:23:06 <FireFly> maybe "foo" isn't in deflate's domain
16:23:12 <FireFly> or not necessarily at least
16:23:39 <FireFly> or "foo" decompresses to something that when compressed yields something else
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16:30:45 <lambdabot> mroman said 8h 33m 11s ago: while that is true, it wouldn't fix anything in this case. The problem is that parsec just looks at the next <
16:30:45 <lambdabot> mroman said 8h 32m 49s ago: and thus can't decide between a new nested tag, or if the old tag is being closed so it always assumes a new nested tag first.
16:30:46 <lambdabot> mroman said 8h 31m 44s ago: you need the try for parseNode because of that.
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16:52:41 <HackEgo> studies show lots of things. Nobody reads them, though. Also: this study contradicts this other study.
16:52:43 <HackEgo> a study is mostly useless until backed up by further studies. See studies.
16:53:54 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/./\U&/' wisdom/stud*
16:54:14 <HackEgo> Studies show lots of things. Nobody reads them, though. Also: this study contradicts this other study. \ A study is mostly useless until backed up by further studies. See studies.
16:56:05 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> according to the majority of readers [...] <-- s/readers/survey answerers/ hth
17:07:13 <HackEgo> The password of the month is 'PlayItSweetly,TakeMeDown,Oh,Jazzman'
17:07:28 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/password
17:07:30 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 67 Dec 9 04:13 wisdom/password
17:09:00 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is fisherman3
17:09:04 <HackEgo> Learned 'password': The password of the month is fisherman3
17:09:22 <oerjan> no one will ever guess that.
17:09:34 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/password
17:09:38 <HackEgo> oerjan mroman oerjan oerjan oerjan mroman_
17:42:58 <fizzie> Heh. Looking at the abuse filter log, the phone number filter is earning its keep.
17:43:23 <fizzie> (Well, yesterday, but still.)
17:44:39 <ais523> huh, strangely enough it's IPs doing it now rather than users
17:44:44 <ais523> spammer changed tactics?
17:50:48 <fizzie> I wondered about that too. At least that means no spurious user accounts to clear out.
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19:16:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:37.57.231.135]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): obvious spambot; it's getting caught in the spam filter but it's trying to post so often that it's spamming up the spam filter logs themselves
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19:17:57 <ais523> huh, that spambot I just blocked was spamming links to archive.org
19:18:02 <ais523> I wonder if it's found a way to post spam there?
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20:20:43 <zzo38> "The result of mounting a file system nosuid varies across Linux kernel versions: some will refuse execution of set-user-ID and set-group-ID executables when this would give the user powers she did not have already (and return EPERM), some will just ignore the set-user-ID and set-group-ID bits and exec() successfully." What versions will do what?
20:21:53 <zzo38> My idea would be that in such a case it should check if the user has read permission on the file too; if they do then it will work successfully and ignore the set-user-ID and set-group-ID bits, and if the user does not have read permission then it should refuse execution of set-user-ID and set-group-ID executables when this would give the user powers she did not have already.
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20:24:40 <prooftechnique> ais523: Time-traveling spambots sound like a nightmare
20:27:26 <lambdabot> LOWI 292020Z VRB01KT CAVOK 00/M01 Q1030 NOSIG
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22:39:38 <zzo38> I found a X11 client library in JavaScript but I cannot find the documentation of it.
22:42:58 <zzo38> Do you know how to find the documentation of node-x11?
22:43:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[50.161.94.113]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46319 * 50.161.94.113 * (+87) Why not?
22:49:14 <prooftechnique> zzo38: https://github.com/sidorares/node-x11/blob/master/README.md
22:51:07 <zzo38> It has example, as well as documentation of X11 itself, but not the documentation of this library, as far as I can see
23:06:30 <zzo38> (I already have documentation of X11 anyways, though)
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23:57:58 <oerjan> "2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds" seems to be independent of when it's done
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00:02:02 <zzo38> Of when what is done?
00:05:26 <oerjan> zzo38: the wiki converts ais523's customary spam block lengths of 24 years into that for some reason.
00:06:04 <ais523> it wasn't me who invented them
00:06:09 <ais523> they were already customary by the time I was made an admin
00:06:25 <oerjan> iirc it started around the same time that time wrapped past the unix 2038 limit, right?
00:06:36 <ais523> `` echo $((4*3600+19*60+12))
00:06:48 <oerjan> what happens if you use 21 years?
00:07:10 <ais523> oerjan: when we hit the Y2038 limit, for a while 24-year blocks didn't work, then after an upgrade they did but with that weird 15552-second offset
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00:11:09 <oerjan> as far as i can see in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Block/37.57.231.135, the actual expiry time listed is 24 years ahead, no offset (unless the seconds are wrong, i didn't see those)
00:12:33 <oerjan> `` date '+%s' Sun, 29 Jan 2040 19:16:25 GMT
00:12:36 <HackEgo> date: extra operand `Sun,' \ Try `date --help' for more information.
00:12:42 <oerjan> `` date '+%s' 'Sun, 29 Jan 2040 19:16:25 GMT'
00:12:44 <HackEgo> date: extra operand `Sun, 29 Jan 2040 19:16:25 GMT' \ Try `date --help' for more information.
00:13:47 <oerjan> `` date '+%s' --date='Sun, 29 Jan 2040 19:16:25 GMT'
00:13:57 <oerjan> `` date '+%s' --date='Sun, 29 Jan 2016 19:16:25 GMT'
00:14:10 <oerjan> > 2211477385 - 1454094985
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00:16:33 <oerjan> it's an exact multiple...
00:16:42 <oerjan> > 757382400 `mod` 15552
00:17:20 <oerjan> that cannot be a coincidence
00:18:03 <oerjan> > second (`divMod` 60) $ 15552 `divMod` 3600
00:18:56 <oerjan> ais523: that _is_ quite eerie, the extra offset is a divisor of the correct one
00:20:15 <ais523> !c int main(void) { printf("%f", (double)(float)757382400); }
00:20:22 <ais523> !c int main(void) { printf("%f", (double)(float)757382400); }
00:20:36 <ais523> !c printf("%f", (double)(float)757382400);
00:20:51 <ais523> !c printf("%f", (double)(float)757382400000000.);
00:20:52 <EgoBot> 757382384713728.000000
00:21:07 <ais523> probably isn't a floating point rounding situation
00:22:50 <oerjan> the correct offset is 48700*15552, the reported one is 48701*15552
00:28:05 <HackEgo> 15552: 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3
00:28:14 <oerjan> oh that's a pretty number
00:28:34 <oerjan> not that unlikely it might appear somewhere, then
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00:30:09 <HackEgo> 86400: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 5 5
00:30:47 <oerjan> factors of 2 might spring into existence easily, but 3?
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00:34:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:114 buy levitra]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 3 years, 10 hours, 8 minutes and 24 seconds (account creation disabled): Blocking this ancient obvious spam account for an experiment
00:35:32 <oerjan> `` date '+%s' --date='Sun, 30 Jan 2039 00:34:18 GMT'
00:35:44 <oerjan> `` date '+%s' --date='Sun, 30 Jan 2016 00:34:18 GMT'
00:35:49 <ais523> `echo $((10*3600+8*60+24))
00:35:56 <ais523> `` echo $((10*3600+8*60+24))
00:36:22 <ais523> > (2179960458-1454114058)
00:36:27 <ais523> > (2179960458-1454114058) / 36504
00:37:04 <ais523> typo somewhere? or just a coincidence lurking somewhere?
00:37:09 <ais523> 24 years has a lot of factors
00:40:01 <HackEgo> 725882904: 2 2 2 3 3 3 3360569
00:40:18 <HackEgo> 725846400: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 5 5 31 271
00:41:55 <hppavilion[1]> Also, I think that mediawiki should measure "2 decades" as "1 score"
00:42:07 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: trying to find out the reason for mediawiki's weird block length reporting bug
00:43:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it reports 24 years as 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds and i just now checked that 23 years -> 2 decades, 3 years, 10 hours, 8 minutes and 24 seconds
00:44:25 <oerjan> the 24 year one had an eerie coincidence that the 23 year one doesn't.
00:49:26 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/iBVG?php is what it uses to go from seconds to a list of things.
00:50:15 <fizzie> With http://sprunge.us/XaFK?php for the $durationIntervals table.
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00:52:16 <fizzie> Since "years" is based on what I assume to be an average year length over a 400-year interval, but the seconds it starts from uses the exact leap years for the particular time span, I'd assume that to go at least somewhat wrong.
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00:53:47 <oerjan> > 757382400 `divMod` 31556952
00:54:24 <fizzie> Well, that seems quite confirmationary.
00:54:47 <fizzie> > 725846400 `divMod` 31556952
00:56:35 <fizzie> That's what you get by trying to human-format a "duration" given as a number of seconds rather than a start and end timestamp.
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01:00:57 <oerjan> does irssi have a command to tell it "pretend this server has already lagged out and reconnect already"
01:01:44 * oerjan sees in the logs that his most important message got through just in time
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01:02:54 <oerjan> ais523: well, mystery solved
01:03:30 <oerjan> it was both simpler and more stupid than hoped
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01:04:53 <oerjan> ais523: the reporting is done with a flawed algorithm for splitting out the years
01:05:15 <ais523> ah right, the X hours we see is actually made out of amortized leap days?
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01:07:27 <oerjan> > 86400 * ( 365 + ( 24 * 3 + 25 ) / 400
01:07:29 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
01:07:35 <oerjan> > 86400 * ( 365 + ( 24 * 3 + 25 ) / 400 )
01:07:53 <oerjan> > 86400 * ( 365 + ( 24 * 3 + 25 ) / 400 ) :: CReal
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01:08:10 <oerjan> heh it's at least a whole number of seconds
01:11:14 <oerjan> if it hadn't been, maybe they would have thought twice.
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01:12:32 <oerjan> also, this means the bug has nothing to do with crossing 2038 per se
01:12:56 <oerjan> it should show up almost every time you have a duration > a year
01:18:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[50.161.94.113]] to [[User talk:50.161.94.113]]: This does not belong in the main namespace; really you should register to get a proper user page but this'll have to do for now.
01:25:25 <fizzie> I was confused about that.
01:28:47 <lambdabot> ENVA 300050Z 25035G48KT 9999 FEW055 06/M02 Q0968 RMK WIND 670FT 26026G48KT
01:29:42 <fizzie> Ooh: 35 knots, 48 in gusts.
01:29:46 <fizzie> Except I still can't read that.
01:30:07 <lambdabot> EGLL 300120Z AUTO 22016KT 9999 -RA OVC010 11/10 Q1009 NOSIG
01:30:24 <fizzie> It was slightly windy here earlier, but not really.
01:30:51 <oerjan> it might be abating here too
01:34:17 <izabera> "Knowledge of the main components of an application architecture." what does this mean?
01:37:28 <izabera> reading this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applications_architecture i don't really understand if that's a real thing or it just means to know how a system is designed
01:39:29 <fizzie> I have a vague suspicion it's not the applications architecture your quote is talking about.
01:39:47 <izabera> then i'm not sure what it is
01:41:04 <fizzie> But the latter thing insists on calling it "applications architecture", plural, while your quote doesn't, which makes me think it's more about the architecture of a single application.
01:41:05 <oerjan> i think the last issue in the top box might be relevant hth
01:41:49 <fizzie> Well. I'm sure buzzwords feature heavily in whatever the "correct" meaning is, as well.
01:42:43 <fizzie> "To create patterns, one needs building blocks. Building blocks are components of software, mostly reusable, which can be utilized to create certain functions. -- An application is a compilation of various functionalities, all typically following the same pattern. This pattern defines the application’s pattern."
01:44:04 <fizzie> Sounds pretty enterprise.
01:45:21 <fizzie> I don't think that is a very good encyclopedia article.
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01:48:52 <fizzie> I clicked the "Zachman Framework" link and now I'm regretting it.
01:50:43 <fizzie> On the other hand, at least now I know that an "event list" is the contextual when, while a "data entity specification" is the physical what.
01:51:40 * izabera was applying for a junior sysadmin position and this was in the requirements
01:55:45 <fizzie> In that case, you might have been right, and it could have been something vaguely related to the notion of applications architecture the Wikipedia page was about. Maybe.
01:56:37 <fizzie> "Row-six provides measured return on investment for Individual Projects and, potentially, for the entire investment portfolio. Without row-six the Framework only identifies sunk-cost, but the row-six ROI permits it to measure benefits and to be used in a continuous improvement process, capturing best practices and applying them back through row-two."
01:56:56 <fizzie> I'm entirely unable to distinguish between "serious" enterprise architecture talk, and parody of enterprise architecture talk.
01:59:57 <fizzie> "The Zachman Framework methodology has for example been used by the United States Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) to develop and maintain its One-VA Enterprise Architecture --" didn't I hear something in the news about how they've got years of backlog in processing applications there?
02:00:12 <fizzie> Well, I'm sure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zachman_Framework#/media/File:VA_EA_Meta-Model_Cell_Details_Enlarged.jpg will take care of all that in no time at all.
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02:11:54 <izabera> found another one and they want a sysadmin that can work on unix/linux/windows, knows access, mysql, mssql, vba, cups... aaaand.... ms office and cobol
02:13:29 <fizzie> Are you sure you're reading a real job listings site?
02:13:55 <izabera> who the fuck writes cobol in 2016
02:14:26 <fizzie> People who are desperately trying to maintain a legacy system in some sort of a working order, is my guess.
02:14:27 <izabera> or even in the last 20 years
02:16:45 <olsner> izabera: another channel I'm in runs a cobol bot
02:16:55 <olsner> (they also have quotes on gopher, so eh)
02:17:36 <izabera> kind of surprised that this channel doesn't have a cobol bot
02:17:52 <olsner> fungot: are you cobol?
02:17:52 <fungot> olsner: i see, so ( letrec* ( ( a 2 1) ' (
02:17:58 <fizzie> We have a Gopher enthusiast regular, at least.
02:18:19 <fizzie> fungot: That doesn't look like COBOL at all
02:18:20 <fungot> fizzie: something to read that paper all the time when theorems were making forced entry. as an explanation, but you can have a hope of educating myself in order to
02:18:37 <olsner> hm, that looks slightly more like cobol
02:29:58 <oerjan> stupid monospace makes them hard to distinguish
02:30:47 <oerjan> there was this guy here once who knew cobol. *something*iggins
02:31:15 <oerjan> i think he was older than me
02:32:35 <pikhq_> I... also know COBOL, sadly.
02:41:53 <izabera> where do i find a cobol interpreter to set up a bot?
02:43:06 <pikhq_> Not easily: it's largely compiled.
02:44:09 <izabera> do you need something like
02:44:19 <izabera> i dunno, special whitespace things?
02:44:43 <izabera> or can you write a whole function in a single line?
02:44:48 <pikhq_> Oh my shit yes. In traditional COBOL, *columns* are significant.
02:45:28 <fizzie> That's the case for traditional FORTRAN as well.
02:45:54 <pikhq_> And freeform COBOL is not very common.
02:46:05 <FireFly> The joy of working with ancient technology?
02:47:14 <fizzie> Freeform FORTRAN was introduced in Fortran 95, and might be relatively common.
02:47:19 <fizzie> As far as these things go.
02:48:20 <FireFly> INTERCAL depended on using backspace to combine characters originally, didn't it?
02:49:03 <izabera> this gnu cobol thing has a gui
02:49:16 <FireFly> Old APL charsets did that too (and of course the original typeballs did too); I guess it was pretty popular back then
02:49:38 <FireFly> Right, the backspace glyph
02:49:47 <pikhq_> Though a pain to type, and won't render right, it'll still "work".
02:50:12 <FireFly> Vim has an option to have infix backspace compose digraphs in insert-mode
02:50:33 <FireFly> It's not exactly overstriking, but I guess it's somewhat similar
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02:57:08 <lambdabot> EGLL 300250Z AUTO 26019KT 9999 -RA BKN012/// BKN025/// OVC042/// //////CB 11/09 Q1008 RERA TEMPO SCT012
02:57:58 <fizzie> Huh. That's apparently for "recent" weather.
02:58:30 <fizzie> So "light rain, recently less so".
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03:10:45 <oerjan> it's for those pesky backwards-in-time flying planes
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03:23:33 <zzo38> How do you do memcpy between different buffers in a JavaScript code?
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03:30:15 <zzo38> Nevermind I figured it out
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05:24:15 <zzo38> I think the debugger built-in to Firefox is defective
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06:04:25 <zzo38> I find ZORKMID is useful not only for debugging Z-machine story files, but also for debugging other Z-machine implementations.
06:13:11 <zzo38> And, ZORKMID is a implementation of Z-machine that I have written in C, and includes a debugger (although it is also usable just for play game even without using the debugger)
06:20:20 <zzo38> The name is short for "Zork Machine Interpreter and Debugger"
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06:27:06 <zzo38> But there are many options too, so you can use "zorkmid -rh" to disable save games and debugging, in case a secure environment is required.
06:28:26 <hppavilion[1]> One of the most popular searches for porn in Hawaii is "Hawaii"
06:31:25 <hppavilion[1]> (I really hope you mean you don't know, less that be a bit embarrassing xD)
06:43:41 <hppavilion[1]> If we were to just use porn consumption per capita as a predictor of political orientation, we could have predicted the results of the 2012 elections with 70% accuracy.
06:43:58 <hppavilion[1]> (src: http://www.pornhub.com/insights/red-versus-blue-us-states/)
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14:52:51 <HackEgo> perpetual motion machine/Perpetual motion machines came with FreeFull's phone. They were hallucinated by Slereah's lack of entropy.
14:53:31 <boily> `culprits wisdom/perpetual\ motion\ machine
14:53:44 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/perpetual\ motion\ machine
14:53:49 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott boily boily
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15:57:14 <fizzie> https://googledrive.com/host/0B4J9OAzXNfZAcG5vcDhkWGFKd3M IMPORTANT: DANGER DEER
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16:39:01 <lambdabot> LOWI 301620Z 16016G28KT 110V190 CAVOK 11/M01 Q1016 WS R08 NOSIG
16:41:28 <lambdabot> CYUL 301600Z 21004KT 15SM BKN017 OVC100 M07/M11 A2994 RMK ST6AS2 SLP141
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17:59:40 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> (I swear, I have no clue how I wound up there) <-- well i know why i did (for SCIENCE). alas, i note that several of the comments point out much of this can be explained by variation in broadband penetration between states.
18:00:37 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] so it's ice cream causing shark attacks all over again
18:02:06 <oerjan> (mainly i clicked because i realized my prejudices were about evenly split about which of republicans and democrats would be watching the most porn)
18:06:22 <fizzie> I think from the stereotypes, republicans should be more hypocritical about it?
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18:33:13 <boily> shikhin: shellokhin. identity crisis?
18:33:42 <shikhin> Yes. I also go by a God named driyoyleujiy in my free time. nortti is my agent, talk to em if you want to.
18:34:06 <boily> nortti: nellortti. shikhin is a god?
18:34:27 <nortti> yes. a chaotic evil one, at that
18:37:35 * nortti ponders the consequences of being a high priest of a malevolent god
18:38:08 * shikhin lures nortti in with promises of a world filled with esoteric languages and Hindu routers.
18:38:31 <nortti> ...that's a world I already live in
18:38:53 <shikhin> Then you must consider the possibility that you already are my high priest.
18:40:30 * shikhin procrastinates on doing malevolent stuff.
18:40:50 <nortti> that's one good part of you
18:41:25 <boily> `learn shikhin is a Malevolent God, who will promise you stuff tomorrow.
18:41:28 <HackEgo> Learned 'shikhin': shikhin is a Malevolent God, who will promise you stuff tomorrow.
18:41:34 <HackEgo> nortti boy. very nortti boy.
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18:42:16 <boily> `learn nortti is a very nortti boy. He yielded to shikhin's promises, and now is his High Priest.
18:42:19 <HackEgo> Learned 'nortti': nortti is a very nortti boy. He yielded to shikhin's promises, and now is his High Priest.
18:42:36 <nortti> damnit, was going to add that myself, using sed -i
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19:50:30 <HackEgo> hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
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20:14:57 <int-e> it's nicely compositional
20:18:23 <fizzie> Put some cats in between.
20:19:03 <fizzie> That's the sort of pipeline I write when doing one-offs, because it's just how I think them up.
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20:44:46 <zzo38> I think awk could even do the grep and sed steps too you can have a condition for each block, which can be a regular expression
20:46:29 <HackEgo> cat: cat cat: No such file or directory
20:46:35 <HackEgo> Meow~~ >^.^< \ Meow~~ >^.^<
20:47:13 <fizzie> `` cat cat | cat | cat - cat
20:47:14 <HackEgo> Meow~~ >^.^< \ Meow~~ >^.^<
20:47:44 <HackEgo> bash: neko: command not found
20:48:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dog: not found
20:50:39 <int-e> `` tac <(echo a;echo b) <(echo c;echo d)
20:50:41 <HackEgo> tac: cannot create temporary file in `/tmp': Invalid argument
20:52:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
20:52:17 <fizzie> You want a space after ``.
20:52:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
20:53:04 <int-e> bash stole a few cute ideas from zsh
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20:54:56 <fizzie> It's just calling mkstemp on a string that says "/tmp/tacXXXXXX".
20:55:01 <fizzie> Assuming it's the coreutils tac.
20:55:19 <int-e> but why does that go wrong?
20:56:02 <fizzie> It doesn't have strace. :/
20:56:11 <fizzie> I wanted to see what exactly it's trying that returns EINVAL.
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20:57:48 <fizzie> `` t=$(mktemp "/tmp/tacXXXXXX"); ls -l $t; rm $t
20:57:49 <HackEgo> -rw------- 1 5000 487868 0 Jan 30 20:57 /tmp/tacH2R8sT
20:57:54 <fizzie> I mean, that's just fine.
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20:59:25 <fizzie> `` tac <(echo a; echo b)
20:59:31 <fizzie> And that is fine as well.
20:59:42 <fizzie> But once you add a second pipe, no.
20:59:47 <fizzie> `` tac <(echo a; echo b) cat
21:00:28 <int-e> so that leaves lseek (unlikely) and ftruncate...
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21:01:20 <fizzie> AFAICT, it would be creating a temp file for any non-seekable file. I'm confused as to why adding a second one would make it barf.
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21:01:32 <int-e> fizzie: it reuses the temp file
21:01:49 <int-e> (at least according to my local strace output)
21:02:26 <fizzie> Missed the "static" part.
21:02:52 <fizzie> But it should give a different error if it failed while seeking.
21:03:17 <fizzie> The "failed to create temporary file in %s" occurs only in the initial if (tempfile == NULL) branch. Maybe it's some sort of a ulimit.
21:03:38 <int-e> `` tac <(echo a;echo b) <(echo c;echo d)
21:03:39 <HackEgo> tac: cannot create temporary file in `/tmp': Invalid argument
21:03:56 <int-e> `` tac <(echo a;echo b) <(echo c;echo d) <(echo e;echo f) <(echo g;echo h)
21:03:58 <HackEgo> tac: cannot create temporary file in `/tmp': Invalid argument \ tac: cannot create temporary file in `/tmp': Invalid argument \ tac: cannot create temporary file in `/tmp': Invalid argument \ b \ a
21:04:39 <int-e> maybe that tac is buggy?
21:04:45 <HackEgo> tac (GNU coreutils) 8.13 \ Copyright (C) 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \ \ Written by Jay Lepreau and David MacKenzie.
21:05:32 <HackEgo> /dev/fd/63 /dev/fd/62 /dev/fd/61
21:05:55 <izabera> not sure why it doesn't work with tac
21:07:33 <fizzie> Oh, that's a different error string than in the tac source I'm looking at.
21:08:26 <fizzie> The one I'm looking at says "failed to create temporary file"; that tac says "cannot create temporary file".
21:09:37 <fizzie> The coreutils 8.13 apparently comes from before they invented the tempfile reuse.
21:10:01 <int-e> fizzie: the 8.13 version of tac is just buggy: it makes no attempt to reuse the temp file, and the 'template' variable is reused without being reinitialized; so the second time, there's no XXXXXX in there anymore
21:10:02 <fizzie> This one's copy_to_temp always makes a new file.
21:10:31 <izabera> is that what ubuntu is shipping?
21:10:44 <int-e> izabera: the VM is rather old.
21:11:11 <fizzie> The system it's running on has tac 8.23.
21:11:33 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
21:11:41 <izabera> well, let's write our own tac
21:12:14 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: gawk: not found \ awk is /usr/bin/awk
21:12:22 <fizzie> But hackbot has its own chroot, and I haven't been touching that.
21:12:57 <HackEgo> compiled limits: \ max NF 32767 \ sprintf buffer 2040 \ mawk 1.3.3 Nov 1996, Copyright (C) Michael D. Brennan
21:13:09 <HackEgo> compiled limits: \ max NF 32767 \ sprintf buffer 2040 \ mawk 1.3.3 Nov 1996, Copyright (C) Michael D. Brennan
21:13:23 <izabera> is this some sort of stripped ubuntu?
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21:25:50 <izabera> `` printf 'FNR == 1{ for (i = max; i >= 1; i--) print a[i] } { a[max=FNR] = $0 } END { for (i = max; i >= 1; i--) print a[i] }' > bin/tac; chmod +x bin/tac
21:26:01 <izabera> `` tac <(echo a;echo b) <(echo c;echo d)
21:26:03 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/tac: line 1: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ /hackenv/bin/tac: line 1: `FNR == 1{ for (i = max; i >= 1; i--) print a[i] } { a[max=FNR] = $0 } END { for (i = max; i >= 1; i--) print a[i] }'
21:26:51 <izabera> `` printf '#!/usr/bin/awk\nFNR == 1 { for (i = max; i >= 1; i--) print a[i] } { a[max=FNR] = $0 } END { for (i = max; i >= 1; i--) print a[i] }' > bin/tac
21:26:56 <izabera> `` tac <(echo a;echo b) <(echo c;echo d)
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21:28:49 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/awk \ FNR == 1 { for (i = max; i >= 1; i--) print a[i] } { a[max=FNR] = $0 } END { for (i = max; i >= 1; i--) print a[i] }
21:30:05 <zzo38> Maybe you should install GNU awk (I think on Ubuntu you have to use the program name "gawk" for GNU awk; "awk" is mawk instead)
21:32:50 <izabera> `` printf '#!/bin/bash\nfor file do mapfile -t lines < "$file"; for (( i = ${#lines[@]} -1; i >= 0; i-- )) do printf "%%s\\n" "${lines[i]}"; done done' > bin/tac
21:32:55 <izabera> `` tac <(echo a;echo b) <(echo c;echo d)
21:33:42 <izabera> prints the lines in reverse order
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21:36:41 <fizzie> izabera: It's a Debian 7.3 in a chroot.
21:36:55 <fizzie> Probably with a rather limited selection of packages.
21:37:00 <izabera> that's why everything is so old
21:37:27 <fizzie> (The thing around it is a regular Debian 8.2, because I accidentally upgraded it the other day.)
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22:06:31 <\oren\> I got two ships in rendezvous to a few metres!
22:07:06 <\oren\> Only using a rocket, no RCS!
22:13:17 <\oren\> http://ctrlv.in/704702
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22:16:51 <Elronnd> last I checked it was ~20-30 dollars
22:17:35 <\oren\> Elronnd: the canadian dollar has eakened
22:18:32 <\oren\> uh... that's wierd then
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22:20:11 <int-e> it's yet another time sink
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22:21:05 <Elronnd> KSP_demo_linux.zip 98%[=========================> ] 470.21M 2.29MB/s eta 5s
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22:43:46 <fizzie> Steam had it in the sale, though skipped.
22:45:05 <fizzie> Heh, Steam's store page for the KSP demo: "English language not supported. This product does not have support for your local language. Please review the supported language list below before purchasing."
22:47:17 <fizzie> I guess it's all in Kerbalese.
22:53:09 <zzo38> If English is not supported, see if the language can be switched to American or Canadian instead
22:54:13 <quintopia> am i the only one here without double letters
22:55:27 <quintopia> although i cant claim its not paying attention
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23:05:38 <fizzie> Is there a "show unused imports" tool for Haskell that's sort of de-facto standard?
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23:08:10 <fizzie> Hm, -fwarn-unused-imports in ghc maybe.
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23:28:08 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make an esowiki article on the ban/nat/nit/nepit
23:29:03 <hppavilion[1]> Or should I roll all the strange units of measurement into one big article?
23:29:38 <hppavilion[1]> (ban/nat/nit/nepit is a base-e unit of measurement to the bit's base-2)
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23:55:51 <zzo38> I think you should put them together in one article, probably.
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00:01:11 <Elronnd> What is ban/nat/nit/nepit anyway?
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00:02:11 <zzo38> I think they said, it is the base-e unit of measurement to the bit's base-2
00:12:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric units of information]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46321 * Hppavilion1 * (+5392) Created page with a good deal of partially-completed content.
00:13:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric units of information]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46322&oldid=46321 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) /* nat (or ban or nit or nebit) */ Formatting fix
00:14:43 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I'm a "he" for future reference; no need to call me "they" (NTTAWWT)
00:14:57 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 15m 16s ago: <hppavilion[1]> (I swear, I have no clue how I wound up there) <-- well i know why i did (for SCIENCE). alas, i note that several of the comments point out much of this can be explained by variation in broadband penetration between states.
00:14:57 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 14m 19s ago: so it's ice cream causing shark attacks all over again
00:16:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric units of information]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46323&oldid=46322 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) /* TIB and STIB */ Fixed template
00:17:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric units of information]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46324&oldid=46323 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) /* Binary (boolean) logic and gates */ Fixed template
00:19:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric units of information]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46325&oldid=46324 * Hppavilion1 * (+2) /* Ternary logic and gates */ Indent heading
00:22:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric units of information]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46326&oldid=46325 * Hppavilion1 * (+2) /* Binary (boolean) logic and gates */ Heading
00:27:00 <\oren\> it's nice that kerbins don't run out of oxygen, so you can just leave them orbiting the mun
00:27:34 <HackEgo> The Moon is an unprovable celestial object that is not very retroreflectorey.
00:27:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?hackego: not found
00:27:51 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
00:28:14 <HackEgo> kerbalspaceprogram? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:28:25 <olsner> oh, it's even a swedish pun... did oerjan put that there?
00:28:38 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/int-e
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00:29:42 <HackEgo> olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines.
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00:29:51 <HackEgo> olsner's desk points zimbabwards. it is highly dependent on tswett's michiganic orientation.
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00:30:15 <olsner> I don't remember where that comes from, probably something boily made up
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00:31:45 <oerjan> olsner: of course i put it there, jag är ju inte ligent hellre
00:32:36 <int-e> olsner: you said it yourself: 2014-01-24: <ghijfcdkml> do you guys have a particular engine you like to build your languages in? <olsner> I build all my esolangs in diesel engines <kmc> `run echo 'olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines' > wisdom/olsner
00:34:46 <oerjan> hm should that be heller my swedish grammar is lacking
00:35:44 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: What does "NTTAWWT" mean?
00:35:51 <olsner> hellre = rather, heller = whatever that word means in that phrase
00:36:36 <oerjan> both meanings are "heller" in norwegian
00:36:58 <oerjan> so i remembered hellre and thought that was the swedish version
00:37:16 <olsner> what's hellre/rather in norwegian then?
00:37:18 <int-e> zzo38: google suggests "Not That There's Anything Wrong With That."
00:37:46 <oerjan> they're not distinguished
00:37:55 <olsner> right, that's what you said now that I reparsed your sentence
00:40:09 <fizzie> The emergency room of Hell.
00:40:23 <fizzie> And an evil regular expression.
00:40:31 <oerjan> new hobby: use NTTAWWT in such a way that it's insulting
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00:40:40 <oerjan> shachaf is vegetarian NTTAWWT
00:41:14 <oerjan> fizzie: i don't get the last one
00:41:15 <fizzie> It's probably pronounced "not a twat".
00:41:31 <int-e> oerjan has a weird sense of humor NTTAWWT
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00:42:52 <int-e> But I guess it's cheating if it's insulting without the NTTAWWT.
00:43:37 <int-e> so, maybe: oerjan's a nice person NTTAWWT
00:43:50 <oerjan> that might be stretching it
00:44:18 <int-e> makes one stop and wonder though, doesn't it...
00:47:01 <int-e> I suspect that'll be a rather short-lived hobby. (NTTAWWT... oops.)
00:50:01 <fizzie> That's nice: I sometimes use gitg for history-browsing, but now it segfaults if I try to open the branch selection dropdown.
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00:56:55 <oerjan> `` tac <(echo a;echo b) <(echo c;echo d)
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00:58:07 <fizzie> Someone gone and did some sneaky stuff, I take it.
00:58:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: culprints: not found
00:58:44 <fizzie> Well, I mean, it *prints* the *culprits*, it could plausibly be culprints.
00:59:48 <zzo38> JavaScript allow to do things like this, it look like: x=Array.from({length:getchar()},getchar);
01:00:16 <izabera> it wasn't sneaky, i wrote it in this chan
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01:47:38 <hppavilion[1]> I kind of want to make a program that converts between arbitrary units of information
01:48:29 <hppavilion[1]> "the complete works of shakespear -> digital clock readouts"
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01:58:16 <zzo38> I would want to make up the "htcls-" prefix for HTML attributes, which is for "HyperText Command Line Service" and is use for converting web apps into command-line programs and SQLite extensions (as well as other possible uses).
01:58:50 <zzo38> (Other attributes are still used too though)
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02:15:17 <zzo38> Many kinds, I suppose
02:15:33 <zzo38> (Including OpenID login forms)
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02:44:17 <zzo38> How to change which events are allowed to be send to webpages in Firefox?
02:47:09 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:52:02 <zzo38> (but to allow all events in a chrome context)
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03:00:07 <\oren\> I can get to suborbital space using one turbofan
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03:07:26 <\oren\> aww apogee still only 53000
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04:05:13 <ais523> the addition analogue to cartesian product as multiplication is disjoint (i.e. tagged) union, I think
04:05:51 <ais523> (a+b)×(c+d) = (a×c)+(a×d)+(b×c)+(b×d), at least with a sufficiently loose definition of =
04:06:23 <hppavilion[1]> For two well-ordered sets o, p s.t. #o=#p, one could have an operation o$+$p (where $+$ is a placeholder symbol) that is basically adding each element by index
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04:07:40 <ais523> I've seen that operation in more than one language
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04:09:36 <oerjan> cartesian product is the category theory product in the category Set, and tagged union is similarly the coproduct/sum.
04:10:15 <oerjan> as usual in CT, defined only up to isomorphism.
04:36:10 <zzo38> My opinion is that such things like -moz-default-color should be made standardized for use in CSS (there are five of these in total); I have once wanted such thing in order to do reverse-video
04:36:50 <zzo38> (without having to override the colors of the entire webpage)
04:37:09 <Elronnd> if worst comes to worst, you can always use an iframe
04:38:31 <zzo38> That's silly though.
04:40:35 <Elronnd> that's why I said, if worst comes to worst
04:40:46 <Elronnd> Not something to do lightly
04:40:57 <Elronnd> There are few occasions where an iframe is warranted
04:48:36 <zzo38> Maybe something like the following could be used: body { background-color: -moz-default-background-color !important; color: -moz-default-color !important; background-color: white; color: black; } .reverse { background-color: -moz-default-color !important; color: -moz-default-background-color !important; background-color: black; color: white; }
04:51:38 <ais523> oerjan: that's basically what I said but in more mathematically precise language :-)
04:51:50 <ais523> now my comment seems redundant :-(
04:52:34 <oerjan> ais523: that's weird since my comment was a reply to yours.
04:52:48 <ais523> it could have been a reply to hppavilion[1]'s though
04:53:05 <ais523> so I guess it was a way to bait out the correct answer
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05:35:16 <zzo38> JSZM is now completed: http://zzo38computer.org/jszm/jszm.js Now you can please comment/questions/complain about it.
05:44:45 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a brainfuck-based language suitable for OS development (not a normal derivative; this one isn't stupid (it's designed with a purpose- specifically, hobbyists in the field of OS development- in mind))
05:46:59 <zzo38> Once you have done, post it and then we can see it please
05:48:02 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I think I might actually make a compiler for it.
05:48:14 <hppavilion[1]> Which is something that would make me feel like a god.
05:50:28 <zzo38> It isn't a god to make the compiler of it, however you can do it anyways
05:52:39 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I know it isn't, but I'll still feel like it for about 10 minutes
05:52:58 <zzo38> Are you good enough at HTML+CSS+JS to fix this? http://zzo38computer.org/jszm/display.html display.js
05:57:42 <zzo38> I cannot get the text to scroll and pause correctly at the correct positions
05:58:23 <deltab> zzo38: there's https://drafts.csswg.org/css-color/#currentcolor-color but no equivalent for the background colour, yet
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06:02:51 <zzo38> deltab: That isn't the same kind of thing as the Mozilla user colours though
06:05:08 <deltab> oh, I thought you meant something based on the existing colours within the page, not the user preferences
06:05:26 <deltab> so that you could do reverse video and such
06:06:51 <deltab> (background-color: currentcolor gives you half of that)
06:09:04 <deltab> using user-pref colours won't work for that when the page colours aren't the user prefs
06:09:43 <zzo38> Still I think there ought to be some way to do stuff like "color: default(background-color);" that you can use such "default" function anywhere (including inside of a calculation) in order to use the value that this element would have by default based on such things as inherited values and less specific rules and so on.
06:12:52 <zzo38> Another thing that should be have is CSS priority numbers, with different defaults for different CSS sources (browser defaults, page defined, "style" attribute, user CSS), as well as different ranges for different sources so that user-defined styles are allowed to have wider ranges of priority numbers than those defined in the webpage themself
06:14:54 <zzo38> And one more thing, that could be used anywhere including inside of a calculation, is to be able to tell it to use the computed value of some CSS property of some specific element, therefore you can have one part to use the required height for the text to fit and the part underneath to use the remaining height of the window
06:16:30 <deltab> I think the issue with that is how to identify the element
06:17:16 <deltab> however flexbox covers your example, I believe
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06:21:30 <deltab> so you shouldn't need a table for JSZM
06:22:15 <\oren\> css is already too complicated IMO
06:23:07 <adu> thanks oerjan
06:23:40 <adu> CSS is pretty simple, it's just a very complicated declarative language
06:24:33 <zzo38> \oren\: That is probably true, but nevertheless a few things are difficult (including that -moz-default-color and so on ought to be standardized but aren't), and all of HTML/CSS/JS/HTTP/HSTS/HPKP/whatever needs to allow user to override everything with anything
06:24:51 <adu> I think the only thing that makes it turing complete is stuff like https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/calc
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06:26:06 <\oren\> I think it would be better to unify the three by making a JSON equivalent to HTML and CSS. Then the entire page can be in the same languages
06:26:53 <adu> there's already JsonML
06:27:38 <deltab> http://www.curl.com/products/prod/language/
06:28:26 <adu> HAR is pretty good at representing HTTP in JSON
06:29:00 <adu> I wrote a simple app to combine them: http://andydude.github.io/harcurl/
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06:30:06 <adu> HAR, HTTP, JSON
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06:30:40 <adu> all you need is "method" and "url", and harcurl fills in the rest with the response
06:31:22 <\oren\> hmm JsonML looks good, if we have a JsonSS then that would be good
06:32:35 <adu> JsonML is more of a universal idea than a spec/format, the idea that an XML element can be translated to [tag, {...attribs...}, children, ...] is not to hard to imagine
06:33:11 <\oren\> well, whatever, it works for my purpose
06:33:19 <zzo38> No, the problem is that it is difficult for the user to override and control everything, and the data on the server has too much control over it
06:33:59 <\oren\> well that can be solved by writing your own web browser
06:34:12 <\oren\> or modifying an existing one
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06:35:25 <adu> hppavilion[1]!
06:35:44 * hppavilion[1] runs across the beach or something towards adu because wtfn
06:35:52 <zzo38> Your idea about representing XML as JSON (and can even be done vice-versa) is not bad, although not related to this. Another idea can even be representing them as RDF too
06:36:23 <adu> zzo38: it's not my idea, it's called JsonML
06:36:23 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I am the source of all acronyms, in case you're curious
06:36:47 <zzo38> adu: Ah, well, it is a reasonable idea anyways I suppose
06:37:20 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I'm attempting to make a BF-based language suitable for operating system development
06:37:28 <adu> hppavilion[1]: IIRC, ROFLMAO
06:37:33 <hppavilion[1]> (not as a stupid derivative; as a decent derivative)
06:37:57 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Except "lol". I have no clue what piece of shit tried to do my job for me and invented "lol"
06:38:17 <adu> hppavilion[1]: low-level forth? or high-level intercal?
06:38:40 <adu> hppavilion[1]: can't
06:38:49 <hppavilion[1]> adu: It's just above ASM in the Grand Level Heirarchy
06:38:57 <myname> i have yet to see any bf derivate that isn't stupid
06:39:07 <adu> oOo Grand Level Heirarchy tell me more
06:39:25 <hppavilion[1]> adu: It's the Grand Level Heirarchy... it describes what languages are above and below others
06:39:35 <myname> most of them are stupid because they are bf derivates
06:39:44 <hppavilion[1]> Typically, languages are implemented in a language either at, above, or one level below themselves
06:39:47 <adu> hppavilion[1]: is that like the 3G/4G bullsh*t?
06:40:10 <zzo38> I have already made up a way of specifying a "root node" of a RDF graph (although its original purpose wasn't to represent stuff like JSON/XML, but it can be used for that too); it is: Make a triple with the subject being the root node and the predicate being <gopher://zzo38computer.org/1ns/meta:primary> and the object is irrelevant.
06:40:18 <adu> cuz regex is totally 5G, but it's classified as a DSL
06:40:50 <adu> hrm, I don't like the Grand Level Heirarchy for exactly this reason
06:41:13 <hppavilion[1]> At the bottom is machine code, slightly above which (by about a millituring) is older ASMs, above which by ~1 turing is modern ASM, etc.
06:41:37 <zzo38> There is also assemblers with macro capabilities
06:41:47 <adu> but what's the top? is it the most advanced general purpose language? or is it the DSL that has the least "resistance" to your problem domain
06:41:58 <zzo38> And, Forth is both low-level and high-level, I think
06:42:10 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Well, in theory you could have a top, but it's not really implementable
06:42:12 <adu> hppavilion[1]: and if there isn't a top, then you can equate languages with integers
06:42:23 <adu> hppavilion[1]: s/can/can't/
06:42:43 <hppavilion[1]> adu: The top is a language that takes a vague notion of what you want it to do and does it perfectly. Happy?
06:43:11 <adu> hppavilion[1]: "deface_msdn()"
06:43:36 <adu> hppavilion[1]: "hack_my_enemies_facebook_account()"
06:44:01 <hppavilion[1]> adu: It just reads a whim in your mind. It uses... I dunno... portable MRI machines?
06:44:09 <adu> hppavilion[1]: "steal_videos_from_my_archnemesis_webcam()"
06:44:38 <hppavilion[1]> You can also have negative turings, at least in theory, for things /below/ machine code
06:45:07 <myname> do_what_i_want_not_what_i_code()
06:45:15 <adu> myname: yes
06:45:29 <hppavilion[1]> For example, bitchanger written as crumbs. That's below machine code, in theory
06:45:48 <hppavilion[1]> "Machine code" is actually just an average; some are above others
06:46:43 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yes, OISCs are about ~10*pi turings below the average machine code
06:47:37 <hppavilion[1]> myname: My "OSFuck" is designed to still be minimalistic, BTW. It just adds some new stuff to make OS development feasible in it; not much more
06:48:01 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It has pbrain-like procedures; is that being too generous?
06:48:16 <\oren\> different CPU's have different expressivness in machine code
06:48:59 <\oren\> like 6502 doesn't have a MUL or DIV instruction, so it must be below 8086
06:49:04 <zzo38> Even many modern machine codes are stupid I think
06:49:16 <zzo38> But I like the 6502 machine codes
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06:50:03 <adu> zzo38: I'm a big fan of MMIX
06:50:17 <zzo38> Actually there are some good ones but none of them are common or are commercially implemented as far as I can tell; so MMIX is one of the good ones too
06:50:20 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I'll ask you. For a brainfuck-like language made for OS development (as a challenge, obviously), is pbrain-like procedures being a bit too generous?
06:50:37 <hppavilion[1]> I know it'll be a pain to compile, which is why I'm apprehensive about it in the first place
06:51:07 <adu> zzo38: from what I hear, SPARC is pretty similar to MMIX
06:51:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I see you
06:53:01 <adu> https://youtu.be/-u5SiCCmVv0
06:53:08 <hppavilion[1]> adu: So can /you/ answer my question? Since I'm visible to you>?
06:53:14 <zzo38> Still they aren't best I think, and I have designed my own instruction sets too
06:54:44 <adu> hppavilion[1]: are pbranes too generous?
06:54:49 <zzo38> Sometimes with support for self-modifying microcodes, although never such things as automatic pipeline stalls and instruction reordering and so on
06:55:22 <adu> hppavilion[1]: pbranes are the foundation of string theory, and thus the universe
06:55:53 <hppavilion[1]> adu: This is a serious question in the development of OSFuck. I need a verdict from someone smarter than myself.
06:55:56 <zzo38> If it isn't meant to be a "restricted harvard architecture", then the program counter may also be a general purpose register, as are most of the other registers too, and there is no immediate addressing mode (you can instead use program counter indirect with postincrement)
06:56:01 <adu> hppavilion[1]: there was a guy from 2036, "John Titor" was his name I think, or so he claimed, and he said string theory was used to build his time machine
06:56:02 <myname> why do you think it'a hard to compile?
06:57:16 <myname> well, easy to compile to c
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06:57:35 <myname> just make an array with callbacks
06:58:08 <myname> ,: is like callbackarray[userinput]();
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06:59:03 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Because efficiency and it actually seems simpler that way
06:59:54 <myname> for asm this isn't much harder
07:00:05 <myname> i am way more affraid of ,()
07:00:37 <myname> defining a function based on userinput
07:00:47 <myname> but even that may not be hard
07:01:15 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But is it too generous? That's the real question
07:01:24 <myname> you basically parse every () you see in the source, make each a label and put an array of labels somewhere
07:01:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: so what's the difference between "pbrain" and "pbrane"
07:02:03 <myname> well, if you really want to make an os, you better have interrupts! i'd use these procedures as interrupt routines
07:02:20 <hppavilion[1]> adu: pbrain is an esolang. pbrane is an m-theory mumble mumble.
07:02:22 <myname> like, pressing a button actually calls procedure x
07:03:16 <myname> but that doesn't qualify as a new language imho
07:03:22 <myname> it might be fun, though
07:04:43 <adu> hppavilion[1]: it takes me several months to learn a language, I just learned about pbrain 3 minutes ago
07:05:15 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I can't answer your question in the way that you want
07:05:29 <hppavilion[1]> myname: What doesn't qualify as a new language in particular?
07:05:42 <myname> you also need calling conventions
07:05:45 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I'm just not exactly sure what you were getting at xD
07:06:08 <myname> like, a : may change every value to the right
07:06:51 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what I'm getting at is that I'm a pbrain noob, and you are aledgedly a pbrain master, so it's you who should be answering the question, not me
07:07:13 <adu> hppavilion[1]: can I quote you on that?
07:07:18 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Who told you that? Was it Ralph? Dammit, Ralph.
07:07:27 <myname> hppavilion[1]: well, x86 defines that rax has a return value for example
07:07:46 <adu> hppavilion[1]: generally questions about suitability of languages as tools to solve problems, are posed by language masters
07:07:47 <myname> you have to know where the results of a call are and where to put argiments
07:08:03 <myname> but i do think you can write an os in pbrain just fine
07:08:24 <myname> maybe add a few more functioms to directly access certain hardware
07:08:50 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Specifically, the Latin-1 Supplemental block includes hardware interaction (e.g. clock)
07:09:17 <myname> depending on hiw serious you are, getting the mouse position might be interesting
07:09:48 <myname> but at that point you might need to tbrain, except when you call procedure 0 periodically
07:09:53 <hppavilion[1]> myname: How exactly do mice work at the hardware level? I've been assuming it just tells the computer "I just got instructions to move up/down/left/right"
07:09:53 <myname> like a timer i terrupt
07:10:35 <myname> you might reserve stuff
07:10:36 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Perhaps I should require that procedure names are defined at compile-time?
07:10:55 <myname> no need for that, i think
07:11:02 <myname> but you have to define some
07:11:18 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I'm probably going to need your help with the procedure definition in the compiler down the line xD
07:11:28 <myname> like, procedure 0 always is the timer interrupt, procedure 1 always is the keyboard interrupt
07:12:20 <myname> you are lucky that i am working on a haskell project
07:12:31 <myname> otherwise i might steal that idea :p
07:13:46 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Do you think I should make procedures save the current tape index and return to it after calling? I'm going to say /yes/ because interrupts
07:14:06 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, I'm so sure of my yes that I now feel stupid for having asked that question
07:14:24 <zzo38> deltab: You said JSZM doesn't need tables; well, JSZM itself uses no HTML or whatever it is pure JavaScript, although the front-end is different and I would like the help to fix it
07:14:39 <myname> you don't need to if you establish calling conventions
07:14:56 <myname> say, every interrupt just starts with >[-]
07:14:59 <zzo38> The file "jszm.js" is the only file which is part of JSZM; the files called "display.html" and "display.js" are part of the example HTML-based front-end
07:15:11 <myname> if you put something there, it is basically your fault
07:15:47 <myname> that is, every interrupt operates on the first free cell
07:15:59 <myname> in both cases you will have problems returning the cursor
07:16:11 <myname> that's the biggest problem
07:16:25 <myname> let's say, cell 1 contains the cell you are currently in
07:17:01 <myname> don't think that's needed, but well
07:17:25 <myname> the problem is: how do you return to cell cells[1]?
07:18:22 <myname> i think you cannot do this in standard bf
07:18:22 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I was planning on a "back-to-start" instruction because it seemed it would be pretty much necessary, though I also thought I could exclude it and you could do some shenanigans where you leave it blank and make sure EVERY cell in between isn't, so you could just [<]
07:18:56 <myname> you _might_ implement a "goto cell[1]" function
07:20:04 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I suppose you could start every procedure with ^&|[>] (the non-BF parts mean put the current cell value in the accumulator, put the current cell address in in the current cell, swap the current cell and the accumulator), and you could end every interrupt with _* (goto the cell referenced by the value in the accumulator)
07:20:08 <myname> i thought you might need something to make stuff atomic, but i am not sure yet
07:20:18 <deltab> zzo38: sorry, didn't know the name for the frontend
07:20:51 <deltab> zzo38: what help do you need?
07:21:34 <myname> like, what if you copy a cell and an i terrupt is triggered when you are on the left cell to copy to the right
07:21:56 <zzo38> deltab: The text area doesn't scroll properly; the logic dealing with "moreHeight" is wrong.
07:22:00 <myname> okay, solution: interruots do not have arguments
07:22:49 <hppavilion[1]> myname: That could pose a problem, where the interrupt triggers between the copies and clobbers the register
07:23:03 <zzo38> Note that it is possible for story_print to be called with a blank string, with text too long to fit on one line (so it will wrap), or an incomplete line, too
07:23:17 <zzo38> And that resizing might affect it
07:23:31 <myname> hppavilion[1]: user functions just aren't allowed to use global registers
07:23:59 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I suppose that works, but then how do you do callbacks?
07:24:25 <hppavilion[1]> Without suddenly switching tasks and clobbering the cells you were in the middle of using?
07:25:04 <myname> if something happens, the os calls a procedure without letting the usercode know. the procedure 1. must jump bacl to where the pointer was before 2. do not modify any nonzerp cells
07:25:40 <myname> like, [>]dosomething cleareverythingused return
07:26:13 <hppavilion[1]> myname: So just have a RETURN instruction that goes back to where it was before the interrupt was called?
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07:26:55 <zzo38> deltab: Do you understand this?
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07:27:50 <myname> note that interrupts must not stack in this model
07:28:14 <myname> for them to stack, you need something like... well... a stack
07:28:28 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Ooooh, or perhaps procedure calls have their own separate accumulator
07:28:34 <zzo38> (Or just write your own front-end if you want to; if Synchronet could be updated to the newest JavaScript version then even a Synchronet front-end could be made so that JSZM can be used as a BBS door program)
07:28:52 <hppavilion[1]> So it can do the thing I mentioned above /without/ clobbering the normal accumulator
07:31:01 <myname> hppavilion[1]: that would work, i think. it wkll also allow arbitrary jumps, not sure if this is good or bad
07:31:30 <hppavilion[1]> myname: How will it allow arbitrary jumps? And what exactly does that mean?
07:31:58 <\oren\> I made a mobile lab by literally rolling the cylindrical lab across the ground
07:33:13 <myname> hppavilion[1]: how would the "jump back to where you were before" command know what the accumulator is
07:33:55 <hppavilion[1]> So when an interrupt is called, a new accumulator is allocated.
07:34:26 <adu> sounds so pbrain
07:34:32 <myname> at that point, you basically introduced a second tape to bf
07:34:35 <hppavilion[1]> The procedure generally calls ^&|, which (without clobbering any data) records the previous location to the new accumulator
07:34:54 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Not one you can really mess with. More of a stack than a tape.
07:35:02 <adu> there are only 10 kinds of people in this world: those who know binary, and those who don't.
07:35:09 <hppavilion[1]> And I think I'll limit recursion depth so I can just use an array
07:35:11 <myname> are you familiar with rop?
07:35:39 <myname> return oriented programming
07:36:16 <myname> adu: there are also those who thing 2 is the only base besides 10
07:36:44 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Let me guess, I can't do that idea because ROP
07:36:55 <\oren\> scientists can apparently research things even while rotating 30 times a minute
07:37:45 <hppavilion[1]> myname: What do you suggest I do? The older return method?
07:38:05 <hppavilion[1]> (older as in something we decided on earlier in this convo)
07:38:09 <myname> introducing a stack might be necessary
07:38:27 <adu> myname: if you were to mandate base 12 as king of the Earth, would you use A, B or X, E?
07:38:54 <adu> hppavilion[1]: good choices
07:39:12 <hppavilion[1]> But I don't want it to be a linked-list-like stack, because then I need to do a linked-list for the tape, and then efficiency just goes out the window
07:40:08 <adu> myname: http://www.dozenal.org/
07:40:21 <myname> hppavilion[1]: well, there already is a stack you can use
07:40:38 <myname> E for eleven is way to central about english
07:41:04 <hppavilion[1]> myname: So should I do returns with the % procedure or a new accumulator for each nested instruction?
07:41:28 <hppavilion[1]> myname: And how do I accomplish interrupt arguments? e.g. how do you tell /which/ key was pressed?
07:42:03 <hppavilion[1]> The % instruction, which POPs an argument and PUTs it in the current cell
07:42:42 <adu> most base-12-centric sources use X, E, but most base-neutral sources use A, B
07:43:11 <adu> X=roman numeral, E=eleven
07:43:20 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Really, I prefer <the void> and <the blood of firstborn children>
07:43:34 <adu> hppavilion[1]: wha?!?
07:44:08 <adu> hppavilion[1]: you, good sir, are a wierdo
07:44:26 <adu> what is your title?
07:44:44 <hppavilion[1]> My full name is, currently, Nathan_<lastname>, Devourer of Souls, Lord of the Walri, Destroyer of World
07:44:58 <adu> my title is "Math Andrew"
07:45:15 <hppavilion[1]> I'm considering replacing the "th" in "Nathan" with thorn
07:45:42 <adu> hppavilion[1]: do it!
07:46:01 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I've put it on a few papers, so I'm already testing it out
07:46:12 <myname> nathorn sounds better that nathornan
07:46:37 <adu> hppavilion[1]: there's this thing, you know "Ye ol' bakery" or "Ye ol' pub", the "Ye" __ACTUALLY__ means "The", so you should use "Y" instead of thorn
07:47:11 <hppavilion[1]> adu: "Y" is just because printing presses didn't /have/ a "thorn" key, and it was adopted by everyone else after that
07:47:30 <myname> a friend of mine has a computer he named "OfShadowsAndTheDarkThingsYouFear"
07:47:43 <adu> I used to work at a Ren Faire, and most people there didn't know that
07:48:12 <adu> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_fair
07:48:19 <hppavilion[1]> myname: So, RETURN instruction or new accumulators for each procedure call?
07:48:49 <hppavilion[1]> They're going to be having ones about modern days in a few hundred years
07:48:59 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I assumed as much, the link was for the benefit of eavesdroppers
07:49:06 <myname> i'd go for return, but you hve to decide, how highlevel it should get
07:49:40 <hppavilion[1]> myname: return is cool, but OTOH new registers for each one grants you the power to control what happens after
07:50:20 <hppavilion[1]> myname: What's wrong with mine that makes you think return is better? (no really, I'm not complaining, I'm certain mine is problematic)
07:50:25 <adu> hppavilion[1]: back in the day, people used to have to pull a brick out of their pocket, and put it up to their ear, and they had to press numbers on this brick with their fingers, sometimes dialling with their butt
07:50:55 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Because that way you can do the cool thing with ^&|[>] at the beginning and _* at the end
07:51:44 <myname> your alternative to return
07:52:19 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Well what I just said. When a procedure is called, it has a different accumulator from the caller
07:52:44 <myname> how does that differ from return?
07:53:03 <hppavilion[1]> myname: So it can do the code I just mentioned without clobbering the register of the caller, potentially in the middle of an important registral operation
07:53:29 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Well, I'm not exactly sure how to answer. Describe your return again?
07:53:50 <myname> my return is just ret of x86 asm
07:56:05 <myname> poping an address (formerly pushed by call) and jumping there
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07:57:59 <hppavilion[1]> myname: How do I accomplish arguments to interrupts?
07:58:27 <myname> why should interrupts need these?
07:58:49 <hppavilion[1]> myname: You mentioned them earlier, and I just guessed what they meant
07:59:11 <myname> normal procedures should have them
07:59:31 <myname> like, if you want to call a printf, you might want to give a format string and variables
07:59:32 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Basically, if, for example, the k key is pressed, and that triggers a hardware interrupt (I think that's how computers work xD), how does it know what that key was?
08:00:37 <hppavilion[1]> A mode where you can basically go inside the current 64-bit cell and manipulate it as you would in Boolfuck?
08:01:13 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Not sure, but it sounded potentially useful
08:01:42 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I take it from your response that it was wrong
08:01:52 <myname> add it if it turns out to be usefuö while writing the os :p
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08:08:52 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Can I get a short list of basic interrupts I need?
08:09:32 <myname> that hardly depends on what your os should be capable of doing
08:11:27 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I need to know them so I can add them to the language so I know what to do
08:11:56 <hppavilion[1]> So I know what basic things to implement in my small DemOS
08:12:49 <myname> first question: do you need multitasking? if so, does it have to be cooperational?
08:13:34 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Not sure. Mostly because I have no clue what that means.
08:14:36 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Concurrent execution of code so that the OS can do more than one thing at a time?
08:15:13 <myname> well, doing multiple tasks, however that may look like
08:16:11 <hppavilion[1]> You know, so you don't have an OS that just does one thing at any given moment
08:16:22 <hppavilion[1]> And that doesn't get hung up whenever something requests input
08:16:26 <myname> you can do that a way such that each task has to say "another process may work now" sometimes or such that the os randomly takes control and put another task to work
08:18:19 <myname> depending on your solution, you need some interrupt that actually switches tasks
08:19:27 <hppavilion[1]> myname: OK, what is the most important, primitive interrupt an OS can support? Interrupt 0 in my procedures?
08:21:26 <myname> if you want to do anything regularly or time specific, i'd say the timer interrupt
08:22:41 <myname> the hardware triggers that
08:23:01 <myname> and you count how often it was triggered in some register
08:24:00 <hppavilion[1]> myname: By the programmer in their definition of the INTERVAL interrupt
08:24:43 <hppavilion[1]> You do something like =>>+% (go to the third cell, increment it, end procedure by returning)
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08:25:42 <myname> that'd be the simplest, yeah
08:28:04 <myname> depends on your goal. mqybe keyboard? or just have a look at interrupt tables of existing OSes
08:31:22 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, found one at http://wiki.osdev.org/Interrupt_Vector_Table
08:33:32 <hppavilion[1]> myname: QUERY HARDWARE instruction (?): Given the current cell's value, send a query to the hardware designated by that cell for what's going on- e.g. query the keyboard (50 or something) for what key was just pressed or unpressed- and put the response in the current cell
08:36:47 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Did my ignorance towards computers offend you? x
08:37:51 <deltab> you should say whether it pauses until a key is pressed/released, or whether it immediately get the most recently stored value
08:39:24 <hppavilion[1]> deltab: I suppose that could be done by treating it as having multiple different hardware devices for different kinds of query?
08:43:33 <deltab> or if you have interrupt handlers, you could have one for keypresses
08:44:21 <hppavilion[1]> deltab: You give a procedure the right number (it's pbrain-like procedures), and it gets called on certain interupts
08:44:58 <hppavilion[1]> deltab: I do have one for keypresses, but the problem is that there's no way to calculate just which key was pressed
08:47:03 <deltab> unless you have one for each key
08:47:38 <deltab> which would be annoying if you want more than a few
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09:00:02 <deltab> hmm, kinda tricky to do this without adding registers or a stack :-)
09:00:52 <hppavilion[1]> I just have procedures that are assigned to numbers
09:01:04 <hppavilion[1]> And certain numbers denote callbacks for certain interrupts
09:01:50 <deltab> and they get executed with the memory set up to contain the incoming data value?
09:03:00 <hppavilion[1]> deltab: They then have to find a cell that it is acceptable to manipulate, set it to the value for the hardware to query, call ?, then they are now directly over a cell that holds the value that was sent
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09:05:07 <hppavilion[1]> That program alone creates an OS which, whenever a button is pressed on the keyboard, prints the value associated. It doesn't work perfectly (as in, keys don't really map to ASCII), but it's OK
09:05:37 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, it does /something/, and it's consistent at it
09:06:26 <hppavilion[1]> If you want it to work better, you kind of need a keyboard-to-ASCII decoder
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09:06:39 <myname> your {} are meant to be ()?
09:06:46 <deltab> just require the keyboard to send ASCII :-)
09:07:28 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Because { and } look more functiony, and because () is used for something else (grouping for the RLE syntactic sugar, to be precise)
09:08:22 <deltab> hmm? oh, are you making this for real hardware?
09:08:48 <hppavilion[1]> deltab: But generally, you're going to be running these in an emulator
09:09:55 <hppavilion[1]> deltab: So you can't make the keyboard send ASCII in an OS?
09:11:33 <hppavilion[1]> deltab: I'm planning to include stdlib functions, written
09:11:34 <deltab> possibly by reprogramming the keyboard controller
09:11:59 <hppavilion[1]> ...written "<identifier>`", which do useful things
09:12:55 <hppavilion[1]> So eq` could be used to test if two values are equal (probably the current cell and the next) and put it in the acc, or some hoop-jumping like that
09:14:10 <hppavilion[1]> deltab: Alternatively, I could just allow characters /other/ than misc. symbols to be used as instructions (i.e. letters), but that's more limiting
09:27:09 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I've figured out that, yes, bitwise mode will be useful
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09:41:06 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Perhaps we should develop a (non-eso) programming language designed solely for OS development?
09:44:18 <zzo38> How to make Firefox to display the permissions that are set in a PDF file?
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10:49:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Call/cc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46327 * Zzo38 * (+141) Created page with "Should law of excluded middle continuations also be described? --~~~~"
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12:32:08 <boily> holy fungot! that split!
12:32:09 <fungot> boily: if t, all i have to
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12:32:29 <boily> fungot: oh hai! sorry, I must leave. will botsnack you tomorrow.
12:32:30 <fungot> boily: it's easy enough to port a scheme implementation designed for script writing. for opening emacs windows and such to be built in...
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14:31:37 <fizzie> fungot: Your scheme implementation has opening emacs windows built in?
14:31:37 <fungot> fizzie: first answer me why you think a password is only allowed in combination with
14:32:04 <fizzie> fungot: It's just common sense to 2FA.
14:32:04 <fungot> fizzie: defines a c-style string.
14:33:56 <fizzie> fungot: A string is a contiguous sequence of characters terminated by and including the first null character. (C11 7.1.1p1)
14:33:56 <fungot> fizzie: i know it sounds kind of stupid name for a new os anyways... it might have matured.
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14:47:07 <mezkhalin> so i had a little idea for a thing i dont know what to describe it as. as such im having a hard way to come up with a name and subsequently a wikipage for it
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14:47:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46328&oldid=46248 * YoYoYonnY * (+197)
14:47:53 <mezkhalin> but it all boils down to pisano sequences and mapping opcodes/instructions to natural numbers
14:49:14 <mezkhalin> the idea being a definition for a program begins with the size of the instruction set 0<n<infinity(theoretically) and then mapping n numbers of instructions for any language to these numbers
14:49:44 <mezkhalin> this could be done by simply providing a list of instructions and their index represents their mapped integer, tadah
14:50:18 <mezkhalin> the source code however, is the pisano sequence of n, in other words the fibonacci values % n
14:50:48 <mezkhalin> the trick thus becoming to figuring out how to map the right operations to the right integers to get not only a program that does what you want, but is also valid
14:51:20 <mezkhalin> and also choosing the right value of n, to get the total number of operations performed before the entire program starts repeating itself
14:52:19 <mezkhalin> it would be trivial to just use NOPs where ever is needed, which would lead to a desired output, but might slow down a program significantly
14:55:00 <LexiciScriptor> so, for example, for bf n=8 and the only program is oeis.org/A079344 ?
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16:20:44 <LexiciScriptor> mezkhalin: how should you define the mapping instruction -> integers?
17:31:58 <mezkhalin> LexiciScriptor: well not precisely, i forgot to mention an operation can be added to the list of ops more than one time
17:32:17 <mezkhalin> such that a bf + instruction can be mapped to both 2,3 and 15 for example
17:32:37 <mezkhalin> the trick is to find a suitable sequence and properly mapping the instructions
17:33:10 <mezkhalin> and the definition i was thinking would be done something similar to first defining the modulo number and then a comma separated list of operations
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17:36:48 <mezkhalin> perhaps just pisano programming would be a suitable name for the concept
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17:41:40 <LexiciScriptor> also, do you want to map only a symbol to an integer or more than one symbol?
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18:49:19 <myname> is there a generic way to write points-free haskell functions with two arguments?
18:51:10 <myname> i thought of something like .$, but i am a bit scared of that combination :D
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19:05:37 <myname> like, f x y = g $ h $ i x y
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20:03:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brachylog]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46329 * 46.193.1.94 * (+1786) Created page with "'''Brachylog''' is a [[Category:Declarative_paradigm|declarative]] language based on SWI-Prolog. It was created by Fatalize in 2015. The compiler is written in Java and genera..."
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20:27:46 <izabera> ok so i'm trying to play with dbfi on my interpreter
20:28:00 <izabera> dbfi is that small brainfuck interpreter
20:28:22 <izabera> how big of a slowdown would you expect?
20:31:01 <zgrep> Interpret a brainfuck interpreter in a brainfuck interpreter! :D
20:31:41 <zgrep> That's written in brainfuck!
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20:38:00 <izabera> $ time bf dbfi.b < <(cat rot13.b ; echo '!irel fybj')
20:38:04 <izabera> real: 5m48.295s, user: 5m48.493s, sys: 0m0.037s
20:38:10 <ais523> izabera: I'd expect an O(n) slowdown
20:38:10 <izabera> $ time bf rot13.b <<< 'irel fybj'
20:38:14 <izabera> real: 0m0.142s, user: 0m0.127s, sys: 0m0.007s
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20:38:50 <ais523> because the BF self-interp needs to keep moving backwards and forwards between the program and the tape
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20:58:00 <zzo38> Do you like my idea of TVMIDI?
20:58:40 <zzo38> The digital cable boxes and satellite boxes you have to use their system, you cannot use your own, and I think that you should be allow to use your own equipment like you can with computer and telephone so that is why I invent TVMIDI, that is what it is for
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21:07:19 <zzo38> I have found out that the Node.js Buffer object supports an undocumented property called "buffer" which accesses the ArrayBuffer of that Buffer object.
21:09:07 <zzo38> (Actually maybe it is documented, and I have just misunderstood it)
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21:18:22 <shachaf> zzo38: What can you tell me about siderotil?
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21:26:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brachylog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46330&oldid=46329 * 46.193.1.94 * (-26)
21:33:11 <zzo38> shachaf: Just what Wikipedia says; it is iron(II) sulfate hydrate mineral with formula: FeSO45H2O which forms by the dehydration of melanterite.
21:58:57 <hppavilion[1]> myname: OK, I think I've got a test OS written in OSF
22:00:10 <hppavilion[1]> It prints "kernel booting", then goes to a new line, then... then there's a bug
22:01:20 <hppavilion[1]> OK, it then prints a newline via a horrible hack, then whenever you press a key it prints out the chr() of that key's ID
22:02:24 <hppavilion[1]> Which is /not/ its ASCII value AFAIK, but instead is some completely unrelated character (but at least it's consistent)
22:06:26 <myname> see, it's not that hard
22:10:45 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Did you check out the code? the docs are here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/18kgklbTW1lFuqvGX_cTGUHBOcFheu7863Zfo-YRuM5A/edit#
22:10:58 <hppavilion[1]> They will, of course, be transcribed to LaTeX in the final release
22:11:37 <myname> well, build a compiler
22:12:19 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I'm currently lexing and parsing, then I'll work on the ASM producing component
22:13:00 <myname> lexing and parsing on a language with only single character lexemes is pretty easy
22:15:18 <zzo38> I do not really like the way that asynchronous functions work in Node.js and I think that instead of passing the callback, I can propose an alternative: Such functions would return a function; this function can be called with no arguments to execute it synchronously, or called with another function as the argument in order to execute it asynchronously.
22:16:41 <zzo38> For example fs.readFile('/some/file/that/does-not-exist')() is a synchronous read file operation and fs.readFile('/some/file/that/does-not-exist')(nodeStyleCallback) would do it asynchronously
22:23:25 <zzo38> Also I still cannot find any suitable documentation for node-x11
22:30:47 <zgrep> s/documentation(.+?)node-/reason\1/
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22:34:59 <zzo38> If there way to make any asynchrononus function usable also as synchronous? (readFile already can do that) Possibly if something can be made like: sync(x=>fs.readFile('filename',x))
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23:44:52 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> adu: I am the source of all acronyms, in case you're curious <-- HERATIC
23:45:08 <oerjan> (some typos just have to be kept hth)
23:46:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I made a simple OS in my OS-development BF language
23:49:48 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a windows/cygwin cc for i686-elf precompiled I can just get online?
23:55:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46331&oldid=46286 * Luis Mendo * (+70) /* Fibonacci sequence */
23:55:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46332&oldid=46331 * Luis Mendo * (-1) /* Fibonacci sequence */
23:58:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46333&oldid=46332 * Luis Mendo * (+149) /* Fibonacci sequence */
23:59:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46334&oldid=46333 * Luis Mendo * (+1) /* Fibonacci sequence */