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00:01:08 <oren> how do I un join a channel?
00:01:20 <oren> I joined #esteric by mistake
00:02:11 <oren> Also my internet was out earlier
00:02:59 <oren> why do power bars have switches that can be activated by wayward feet?
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00:16:49 <hppavilion[1]> oren: Where are your backslashes. I barely recognize you without your backslashes.
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00:50:25 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: note that it was a database *query language* based on category theory that I wanted to create.
00:50:37 <tswett> If you want to make a database, use SQLite or something.
00:51:03 <tswett> The basic idea behind the category theory of databases...
00:51:34 <tswett> Tables are objects. Columns (and things that behave like columns, such as chains of foreign keys) are arrows.
00:53:57 <tswett> So far I've primarily been considering read-only databases. I'll want to think about writable databases, too, of course, but that'll make stuff more complicated.
00:55:09 <tswett> Now, I guess it's probably best to imagine all this as taking place in the category Set. So, tables are simply thought of as being sets, and columns are simply functions.
00:55:36 <tswett> A lot of concepts that are useful in databases turn out to be fundamental concepts in category theory.
00:57:30 <tswett> A union of two queries is a "coproduct" (which really ought to just be called a "sum")... almost. The cartesian product of two queries is a product.
00:57:48 <tswett> Adding a "where" clause gives you an "equalizer".
00:58:09 <tswett> An inner join is the same thing as a "pullback".
00:58:48 <tswett> Most excitingly, a SQL query of the form "SELECT FROM a_table, another_table, ... WHERE this = that, these = those, ..." is the same thing as a "limit".
00:58:59 <tswett> Note that a limit in category theory isn't at all the same thing as a limit in... the rest of mathematics.
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01:00:41 <tswett> Though they're related, somehow, supposedly.
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01:00:52 <coppro> tswett: I'm not sure I follow at all. What are the head and tail of an arrow?
01:01:16 <tswett> You know that an arrow is the same thing as a morphism, right?
01:01:27 <tswett> The domain is the table containing the foreign key; the codomain is the table referenced by the foreign key.
01:06:53 <coppro> that makes much more sense
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02:30:51 <hppavilion[1]> I'm considering making a language called "ASM for Pythonistas"
02:32:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45740&oldid=45739 * 103.3.96.10 * (+2) /* Specification */
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03:27:45 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to see a pseudoarithmetical operation for which the identity is 2.
03:30:57 <hppavilion[1]> Without just defining an operation such that the identity is 2. That's cheating.
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04:11:15 <\oren\> @tell hppavilion[1] f(x,y) = x+y-2
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04:19:56 <hppavilion[1]> I had an idea for something eso- that could have serious uses in the real world in an actual way.
04:21:09 <hppavilion[1]> The name of the general concept is "Inappropriately Placed Assembly Languages", or "Inappropriately Placed Executables" if you prefer.
04:23:13 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, the idea is to write highly-efficient programs in ASM and a mid-level language like C or Rust that run a domain-specific bytecode, such as one for something PHP-like. The purpose of this is to make web languages compilable to highly efficient code as opposed to being interpreted, thus increasing the efficiency of infrastructure by 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.00000006%.
04:23:24 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, this might be what's done already and I might just be an idiot.
04:25:43 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: are you talking about wasm?
04:26:12 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: in development but almost yes.
04:27:04 <lifthrasiir> but I guess wasm is not really bound to the web browser
04:27:28 <hppavilion[1]> Though based on the fact that is has an AST, I don't think it's really an ASM.
04:27:32 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: to be clear, the status-quo JS interpreter already does so to some extent
04:27:49 <lifthrasiir> the role of asm.js or wasm is to guarantee that (and to cut the parsing cost)
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04:28:41 <hppavilion[1]> My idea is for server-side stuff so that you can write something to the same effect as PHP, but faster and awesomer.
04:28:44 <lifthrasiir> if you write a JS code sufficiently looks like low level code (in terms of code complexity; not to mean I/O or so), it does compile that to that level
04:29:24 <lifthrasiir> a killer feature of (mod_)php is an opcode caching, isn't it?
04:30:25 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: php source code is parsed into an internal opcode which is interpretered. mod_php caches the first step (parsing) so that an unmodified php source code can be executed much faster.
04:31:48 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Ah, that's cool. But being able to write ASM that does PHP would still be /so cool/
04:35:24 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: What level do you program on? High or low?
04:35:27 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: I've once thought of a vectorized asm-like bytecode.
04:36:33 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: well, opcode interpretation is not very fast, but if you can delegate some specific task to a single opcode, that can be made faster
04:36:44 <lifthrasiir> actually that's a recurring theme on the physical chip
04:36:56 <lifthrasiir> (why do we have an AES round instruction on x86? :p)
04:36:57 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making an ASM called "ASM for Pythonistas", which I want to have features reminiscent of the high level while still being down low. I currently have one thing: Variable-length instructions. You have any suggestions?
04:38:12 <lifthrasiir> I wanted to make a bytecode that is relatively easy to implement (no JIT, possibly a threaded impl, but not much)
04:38:25 <lifthrasiir> and relatively fast when you use a right opcode
04:38:56 <lifthrasiir> lifting (the first layer of) loops into opcodes seems to be a fine approach
05:59:30 <hppavilion[1]> I am attempting to produce the most complete catalogue of stack manipulation operations ever: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Im3xnBO-CUeqLHWfpNfHhbfh5ZzgXvML4yFjPqXKdF0/edit#
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07:28:13 <izabera> moral dilemma: jack works with children, let's say he's a kindergarten teacher
07:28:28 <izabera> jack is found to be a pedo and he's sentenced to 20 years in prison
07:28:45 <izabera> 20 years later, jack wants his job back
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07:36:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Seriously]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45741 * Quintopia * (+14869) This took way too long.
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08:13:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45742&oldid=45687 * Quintopia * (+16) /* S */
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08:31:22 <hppavilion[1]> I wnt to learn ASM. So naturally, I'm writing an Assembly language first then learning by writing in it.
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08:56:33 <^v> hppavilion[1], haha
08:56:55 <^v> if you really want to do ASM you should learn arm/thumb
08:57:02 <^v> thats where the money is at
08:57:22 <hppavilion[1]> OR I could write my own ASM interpreter and learn that so I grasp the concepts, then get the nuances of individual ASMs later
08:58:21 <^v> mroman, lol...
08:59:07 <mroman> I mean the rules are easy
08:59:08 <^v> yeah until the platform you are on doesnt have gdb and has no emulator
08:59:26 <mroman> but to do something in it is a little bit inconvenient.
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09:01:53 <^v> but which asm
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09:02:35 <^v> like i have done a bit of x86 and there are 100,000,000 and a half ways to do everything
09:02:51 <^v> oh like gmod GPUs?
09:02:58 <^v> that one is fun
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11:15:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45743&oldid=45740 * Luis Mendo * (+0) /* Compiler */
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12:19:27 <fungot> boily: you can trivially write a screen-scraper to build a scheme48 image to start with
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12:26:18 <Taneb> Nostril is not a word I use very often
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12:42:45 <b_jonas> fungot, how is mandril a word you use very often?
12:42:45 <fungot> b_jonas: yes, also the sound is actually measured by how far it goes down for me too
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12:48:26 <b_jonas> fungot, can you scrub toilets?
12:48:27 <fungot> b_jonas: using emacs? o_o we could make a pencil&paper implementation of whirl is just a nice ui/ interface paradigm for an os class, which the environment can then read my diary using just a normal linux kernel, dude.
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13:58:11 <mroman> or is it made read-only once the runtime linker is done?
14:00:44 <b_jonas> no idea. ask the libc people.
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15:07:25 <b_jonas> fungot: yes, but Christmas in which year?
15:07:26 <fungot> b_jonas: well, there i can steal or guess ids of other users it's a problem
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16:04:27 <fungot> mroman: but i would prefer installation via curses honestly... it's not really much gain. i realize how lucky i was to call car on a string
16:04:38 <mroman> fungot: car on a string?
16:04:39 <fungot> mroman: do you have a look at it tomorrow, since i still haven't finished drawing the original problem. :p
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16:16:18 <mroman> fungot: sure I can give it a look.
16:16:18 <fungot> mroman: c ya tommorow :(
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18:15:20 <lifthrasiir> 1602 characters so far, working on Armenian script.
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18:32:41 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making an attempt to categorize all the operations in all of the languages.
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19:02:15 <fizzie> "-- we have finalized all the necessary arrangement and your fund ($5.5USD)has been approve by the border directors of Uba Bank --" well, okay, but five and a half dollars isn't really that much to celebrate for.
19:03:26 <fizzie> Also they want $85 for a "transfer clearance certificate approval", which makes me think this isn't really a good deal I'm getting.
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19:03:55 <hppavilion[1]> OK, so I have Deque, Tape, and Trape in my database of DS operations
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19:05:28 <hppavilion[1]> I've defined roughly 20-25 operations for the Deque, and can definitely think of some more
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19:41:36 <b_jonas> In the manual of a fridge and freezer, what does this instruction mean? “Do not change the specifications of this appliance.”
19:42:01 <b_jonas> There are translated versions of the manual to about nine languages if it helps.
19:53:27 <Welo> do you have Dutch?
19:53:42 <Welo> the English doesn't seem to make much sense
19:56:55 <hppavilion[1]> I have to do a speech for english on why my hobby is the best hobby
19:57:28 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm going to do a short speech then play Rebecca Black's "Friday" through windows's speech API
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20:01:06 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Well if specification means the same thing here as it does in programming, I would assume it means don't hack into their factory computers and change the way it's manufactured
20:01:49 <hppavilion[1]> But it probably doesn't, so I assume that it just means don't mess with the device because they're anti-personal freedom to screw with your own fucking property
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20:35:28 <glitchomatic> im currently building a humman act like numerical prossesor
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20:47:33 <b_jonas> Welo: dutch seems to be “De specificatie van het apparaat mag niet worden veranderd.”
20:47:57 <Welo> that means exactly the same
20:48:25 <Welo> I think that hppavilion[1] is right, and that they mean you shouldn't hack it
20:49:31 <hppavilion[1]> glitchomatic: Building a human act like numerical processor? You mean a numerical processor that behaves like a human?
20:50:28 <glitchomatic> in other word it is the main piece of a robot to react like a humman
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21:29:26 <hppavilion[1]> It'd be cool if the universe was structured such that TMs could "recur" within one another, increasing computational class each time
21:29:52 <hppavilion[1]> Essentially, if, if you replaced the FSM of a TM's state with another TM, it got more powerful
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21:34:15 <hppavilion[1]> What happens if you restrict a TM such that the state FSM can only be a decision tree?
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23:42:11 <hppavilion[1]> I want to see HaskASM. Basically, a purely-functional assembly language. Somehow.
23:43:19 <hppavilion[1]> Probably just a Haskell that is all about dos registries
23:47:15 <olsner> maybe something like reduceron assembly
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01:38:21 <lambdabot> CYUL 020111Z 04005KT 5SM -RA BR SCT005 OVC009 01/01 A2999 RMK SF3SF5 SLP158
01:38:48 <boily> fungotting weather. 01/01, it's raining sleet and sludge and freezing rain.
01:38:48 <fungot> boily: very language has it's strength, and it's concatenative not functional, it doesn't break down below definitions in the current version
01:39:03 <boily> fungot: its, not it's.
01:39:03 <fungot> boily: well if you have
01:39:08 <fungot> boily: i doubt you find it
01:39:18 <boily> fungot: you cheeky bastard.
01:39:18 <fungot> boily: well no it isn't... but it would take us weeks to reach any interesting conclusions; we don't talk about being sent to me with the feeley's continuation interface, the cml-style event system, of course
01:39:48 <boily> fungot: oh dear. much much more than just mere weeks to reach anything understandable with you.
01:43:26 <boily> hppavilion[1]: hilion[1]!
01:43:52 <boily> how's the weather on your end?
01:45:42 <boily> at least a coworker and I discovered a new bánh mì place, so all is not lost.
01:49:21 <boily> vietnamese sandwich ^^
01:50:22 <boily> you take a baguette and fill it with goodies: vietnamese mayo, some meat, marinated carrots and radish, cilantro, hot peppers...
01:50:57 <boily> I like mine with nem chua (fermented pork sausage).
01:51:07 <Taneb> If I ever end up in boilyland you'll have to show me
01:51:23 <Taneb> Where is boilyland?
01:51:35 <boily> Tanelle. boilyland is Montréal.
01:51:59 <coppro> that doesn't sound like something I'd like
01:52:10 <boily> a footlong sandwich will run you about 4 bucks.
01:52:48 <Taneb> 4 bucks!? That's like 2 quid!
01:53:04 <coppro> I can't handle spice, especially not pepper spice (small amounts of curry is ok). I don't like fermented/pickled things.
01:53:09 <Taneb> ...I did not realise the exchange rate was that close to 2
01:53:22 <coppro> I remember when it was like 2.5
01:53:54 <Taneb> I was at a quiz today! (well, yesterday) and a question about the price of bitcoin came up!
01:54:07 <Taneb> Which I was the only person who got, because I looked it up the other day
01:55:30 <Taneb> Of course, the team I was on came 5th out of 8
01:58:53 <Taneb> I did pick up some snazzy onion goggles in the raffle, though
01:59:28 <boily> what's an onion goggle?
01:59:43 <Taneb> Goggles for the purpose of making chopping onions easier
01:59:55 <Taneb> So your eyes don't start watering
02:00:57 <Taneb> Of course, these have their style inspired, seemingly, by Dame Edna Everage
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02:03:45 <coppro> http://journal.sjdm.org/15/15923a/jdm15923a.pdf
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02:28:51 <boily> \oren\: your font's 孔's strokewidth is strangely thin.
02:33:32 <\oren\> I'll fix that. I'm busy with overtime for a deadline right now, but I'll be back working on my font in mid-december at the latest
02:34:25 <\oren\> I'll put all requests into a file so I don't forget them
02:34:51 <boily> deadlines are bad for your health.
02:35:24 <boily> a spider crawled across my monitor.
02:37:43 <\oren\> It's my fault I dodn't realise that this would take as much work.
02:37:58 <\oren\> Also the meetings are getting longer as our team grows
02:41:22 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm making an assembly language to teach myself assembly
02:47:45 <\oren\> blending an old english letter with an internet-age hashtag!
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04:18:12 <hppavilion[1]> Not for an esolang, in this case. An idea for a utility application
04:18:57 <hppavilion[1]> A to-be-unnamed individual was discussing Child Support costs with no-particular-person at some point between time 0 and the heat death of the universe. It gave me an idea.
04:19:51 <hppavilion[1]> An application for calculating anything to do with numbers without having to understand the math behind it. Designed for the population that doesn't care about integrals and just wants to know how much their mortgage costs.
04:24:25 <\oren\> I don't think something like that is very likely
04:25:25 <\oren\> you'd need to know ehere the person lives and then look up the relevant laws somehow
04:25:58 <\oren\> i guss mortgages are possible without that
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04:30:19 <quintopia> \oren\: the fact that it is so difficult and requires so much data is what will make it worth a billion
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04:59:49 <\oren\> what kind of esoteric stuff do you liek
05:01:04 <\oren\> this is the channel for esoteric computer stuff, mathematical things, and recntly esoteric fonts and typesetting
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05:05:29 <hppavilion[1]> So we have Logic Languages, Functional Languages, what else can we do?
05:06:28 <B1ood6od> I've recently gotten into esoteric programming languages.
05:07:33 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: we need Emotional Languages.
05:09:09 <B1ood6od> I wrote my first program in LolCode today (though I see places saying it's an iffy on being esoteric). I wrote a clone of my Rubik's encryption.
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05:28:44 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: Yeah. Lolcode is what I categorize as a "Weirdlang": strange syntax, but not really Eso. It's really just a procedural language with lulzy vocabulary
05:31:27 <B1ood6od> hppavilion[1] : I was (and still am) going to make my encryption in Shakespeare as well, was just having a bit of issues compiling it earlier.
05:32:02 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: I'd recommend you learn a Funge, personally. Concurrent Befunge-98 is good.
05:32:39 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: What letter is the "6" in your name supposed to be?
05:33:06 <B1ood6od> hppavilion[1]: I'll definitely look into it. I'm just kinda having fun translating it into neat languages. The 6 stands for G.
05:34:39 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making an ASM called Þ#. Because I don't know ASM and want to learn it, and that was the next logical step. Somehow.
05:36:49 <B1ood6od> That is a beautiful step to take. I was interested in learning so I decided to make a text based game in nasm, rage quit, bought tis-100 and had a hayday. Plus I do some smali editing on the side.
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05:39:00 <B1ood6od> I really need to catch up. See ya.
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05:46:36 <quintopia> B1ood6od: is the rubik's encryption that one from "make your language unusable" or w/e
05:47:44 <B1ood6od> quintopia: I'm not sure what you're referring to. But my Rubik's encryption is something I made from scratch to translate any ASCII into Rubik's cube movements (and thus onto the cube itself)
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08:51:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Last ReSort]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45744 * Ais523 * (+5119) new language; I can't be online for long, so won't do the paperwork, and won't be able to create [[ZISC]] until later because I haven't got that article in a text file ready to deploy yet
08:52:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[The Amnesiac From Minsk]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45745 * Ais523 * (+21026) and have another four new languages :-)
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09:51:49 <FireFly> Never mind, I'll wait for ais523's explanation later
09:51:59 * FireFly just read the edit message
09:52:47 <b_jonas> FireFly: it's probably like a RISC but brought to eso level
09:53:08 <fizzie> OISC with one less instruction would be the obvious assumption.
09:53:20 <FireFly> Yeah, but I don't see how a zero-ISC would work
09:53:57 <fizzie> I have a vague feeling that was discussed on-channel, but I forget what the idea was.
09:54:02 <int-e> well, look at this example interpreter: while (true) p = (*p)++;
09:54:14 <int-e> there's no code, only data
09:55:37 <b_jonas> well, there was some article where someone figured out that a modern x86 cpu is turing-complete even if you don't run any instructions (after a suitably complicated setup to bootstrap it)
09:56:04 <b_jonas> by some magic with fault handlers chained in such a way that actual instructions are never executed
09:56:10 <b_jonas> so that might count as a ZISC
09:56:12 <int-e> (taken from http://esolangs.org/wiki/Last_ReSort which has this explanation: "(This is a true, and very simple, ZISC because there's only one command used, which takes no arguments, i.e. the behaviour is entirely defined via the initial contents of memory and the initial pointer, there is no separate program.)")
09:57:07 <fizzie> int-e: I'm not sure how that's conceptually so different from the OISCs, which also tend to have their one operation be implicit, and are also "entirely defined via the initial contents of memory [interpreted as operands to that one operation] and the initial pointer".
09:57:43 <b_jonas> FireFly: OISC still has operands, even if no opcode
09:58:16 <b_jonas> that is, in an OISC, there is still a series of instructions, each of which has operands, even if no opcode because it's elided
09:58:21 <FireFly> Fractran would also be a ZISC
09:58:34 <FireFly> Yeah, that definition makes sense
09:58:48 <b_jonas> what? isn't Fractran an OISC?
09:59:16 <b_jonas> do we also have TISC as an acronym, for a two/three/ten/twelve/thousand instruction machine?
09:59:18 <int-e> fizzie: yes, the line between code and data is blurry, though the point that the code is not represented in memory at all is a rather strong one.
09:59:35 <int-e> (but then you can start to think of the data as code... and get into a mess)
10:00:03 <fizzie> b_jonas: How is that different from saying that in the Last ReSort ZISC implementation the contents of the memory are operands with an implicit opcode that does the operation "p = (*p)++"?
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10:00:32 <fizzie> (Whoops, things to do. ->)
10:02:08 <FireFly> b_jonas: well, the operation in each iteration of Fractran doesn't have any "operands" but rather operates on the entire program/data, no?
10:02:19 <FireFly> Much like Last ReSort, AFAICT
10:03:07 <FireFly> As opposed to something like Subleq, which has more discrete instruction operands
10:04:19 <b_jonas> FireFly: um, the numerator and denominator are the literal operands.
10:05:24 <FireFly> But which numerator and denumerator? it does a scan through the numbers each iteration, no?
10:14:58 <b_jonas> yes, and each of those numbers is an instruction, of which the numerator and denominator are the operands,
10:15:21 <b_jonas> (or the whole fraction is a single operand, if you prefer), and there's no explicit opcode because it's an OISC.
10:48:18 <mroman> b_jonas: the MMU thing is turing-complete.
10:50:47 <mroman> but it only runs in the bochs emulator apparentely
10:50:58 <mroman> other emulators don't accurately emulate
10:51:20 <mroman> I think Bochs is the only one that actually has an MMU emulation
10:51:29 <mroman> where other emulators don't really emulate the MMU
10:52:57 <mroman> hm. QEMU uses a full software MMU as well
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11:05:35 <mroman> TISC is "The instruction set computers"
11:05:41 <mroman> which refers to computers with instruction sets.
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11:29:47 <FireFly> `learn TISC is "The instruction set computers", which refers to computers with instruction sets.
11:29:52 <HackEgo> Learned 'tisc': TISC is "The instruction set computers", which refers to computers with instruction sets.
11:31:12 <int-e> . o O ( random instruction set computing )
11:33:23 <b_jonas> no, I think TISC is "thousand instruction set computing" (or "two thousand instruction set computing"), as in x86
11:33:51 <mroman> and nobody dare adding an s to TISC
11:33:56 <mroman> TISC is already plural!
11:34:06 <mroman> I'll slap everybody who says TISCs with a rotten fish.
11:34:40 <mroman> Personally, eventually.
11:34:50 <mroman> Once I'm rich enough to travel all around the place to slap people with fishes.
11:34:55 <mroman> which is kinda my secret dream I guess.
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11:43:50 <lambdabot> CYUL 021134Z 02005KT 2 1/2SM -RA BR OVC003 02/01 A2982 RMK SF8 SLP099
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13:20:20 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> Essentially, if, if you replaced the FSM of a TM's state with another TM, it got more powerful <-- afaics that's equivalent to just adding an extra tape, which doesn't increase power (but may increase the speed). instead you may want to look at "oracle machines".
13:25:01 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> What happens if you restrict a TM such that the state FSM can only be a decision tree? <-- it can only run for a finite number of steps hth
13:35:16 <oerjan> @ask hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> So I'm making an assembly language to teach myself assembly <-- won't that just teach you like, strawman assembly?
13:35:53 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ <\oren\> Also the meetings are getting longer as our team grows <-- something something mythical man-month
13:46:22 <lambdabot> ESSB 021320Z 21005KT CAVOK 01/M03 Q1015 R30/19//64
13:50:13 <lambdabot> ENVA 021320Z 08008KT 030V120 9999 -RA FEW010 SCT030 BKN060 04/00 Q0998 TEMPO 16015G25KT 4000 RASN VV014 RMK WIND 670FT 14011KT
13:50:28 <oerjan> we had some, but it got flushed away
13:51:05 <oerjan> (some is remaining in spots)
13:58:00 <fizzie> I heard there was some snow here some morning.
13:58:08 <lambdabot> EGLL 021350Z AUTO 22014KT 9999 FEW023 13/09 Q1022
13:58:40 <fizzie> There were a few nights with NEGATIVE TEMPERATURES, but they went away, and now it's been hovering around 10 degrees.
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15:27:48 <Taneb> I wrote another nasty fizzbuzz program http://arin.ga/wZScu7
15:30:24 <lifthrasiir> Taneb: clever. so is it exploiting the fact that 15 = 2^4 - 1?
15:30:51 <Taneb> lifthrasiir: that was not a conscious decision on my part, but yes
15:31:04 <Taneb> It's more exploiting the fact that modular arithmetic is a thing that works
15:33:11 <Taneb> I believe that the language of positive integer multiples of a given natural is always regular
15:34:31 <lifthrasiir> (I guess having a simple and regular automaton *is* the effect of using a divisor of 2^n-1, really haven't verified though)
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15:49:23 <FireFly> Taneb: I assume this is what you'll write if you ever get a question about fizzbuzz during an interview?
15:49:44 <Taneb> FireFly: I'm building a repertoire
15:50:00 <Taneb> To make sure I only get hired by people who won't mind me idling in here
15:50:19 <FireFly> Hmm, fizzbuzz via computed goto
15:51:35 <Taneb> I made one that worked on decimal the other day, but this which works on binary is more efficient
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15:57:01 <Taneb> I've got a quartic-time one in Haskell, and one in essentially untyped lambda calculus, in Haskell
15:59:04 <Taneb> It has nothing in it that a beginner working off an old tutorial might not do
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16:00:04 <Taneb> For each n, it constructs a list of the fizzbuzz output up to n-1, copies that to append the nth, (it does that recursively), then takes the last one and prints it
16:00:24 <Taneb> ...actually this might just be a slow cubic
16:01:30 <Taneb> Anyway, I need to go somewhere else now, see ya!
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17:03:27 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: in your font, I see you added new characters, including armenian letters.
17:04:11 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: but also, it seems that in the vector version, some characters don't get the character name shown in the title text, despite that they do have a character name in unicode.
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17:05:05 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: also, I think the ascii minus sign still looks the same (or maybe just very similar) to some other characters. maybe you want to distinguish those.
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17:05:24 <b_jonas> I see you've changed the ascii vertical bar though
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17:12:03 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: figuring out how to do that. thank you for the feedback though.
17:12:43 <lifthrasiir> the list of glyphs that are similar to hyphens is overwhelming, needs some study to check that.
17:14:11 <mroman> I'm surprised that Burlesque's EvalMany doesn't break lazyness.
17:15:52 <mroman> accessing the secondary stack breaks laziness though
17:15:55 <mroman> even though it shouldn't
17:17:57 <mroman> 5Pp"20"{0}{J)n!_+}400E!jri.+pP
17:18:00 <mroman> this runs out of memory
17:18:10 <mroman> "20"{0}{J)n!_+}400E!jri.+
17:18:12 <mroman> this works totally fine
17:18:26 <mroman> Pp pushes to the secondary stack, pP pops from the secondary stack
17:21:05 <FireFly> Somehow you managed to invent a language that looks more like line noise than J does
17:21:38 <mroman> popStateStack somehow fucks up laziness completely
17:21:54 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: for the character name, I'm using Python 2.7 and its Unicode name database is up to 5.0 (I think).
17:22:35 <mroman> http://codepad.org/yijXc8SD
17:22:47 <mroman> This shouldn't evaluate st completely
17:22:52 <mroman> so no idea why it breaks laziness
17:23:15 <mroman> but as soon as you try to pop something from the state stack something just doesn't work
17:24:39 <mroman> but other stuff uses put all the time to push values to the stack :(
17:25:55 <mroman> swapping stacks breaks it as well
17:27:03 <mroman> reading any variable breaks it too
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17:30:41 <mroman> getVar name = do (_, _, v) <- get
17:30:49 <mroman> getVar doesn't even look at the stacks
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18:56:08 <quintopia> i need some tips for programming in Thue
18:58:04 <olsner> if your thue programs run too fast, you can always compile them to apache rewrite rules
18:58:23 <olsner> that's the most useful thing I know about Thue
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19:37:35 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 17m 14s ago: <hppavilion[1]> Essentially, if, if you replaced the FSM of a TM's state with another TM, it got more powerful <-- afaics that's equivalent to just adding an extra tape, which doesn't increase power (but may increase the speed). instead you may want to look at "oracle machines".
19:37:35 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 12m 34s ago: <hppavilion[1]> What happens if you restrict a TM such that the state FSM can only be a decision tree? <-- it can only run for a finite number of steps hth
19:37:35 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 6h 2m 18s ago: <hppavilion[1]> So I'm making an assembly language to teach myself assembly <-- won't that just teach you like, strawman assembly?
19:38:46 <hppavilion[1]> @tell oerjan When I mentioned the meta-turing machine, I was discussing an alternate universe in which that was the case. And yes. Strawman assembly.
19:38:58 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: So do you think Neural Networks can experience pain?
19:40:33 <hppavilion[1]> Because I kind of want to make a Neural Network Hell. Just because I'm feeling sadistic.
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19:42:20 <gamemanj> Did I just read what I just read?
19:45:00 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Do you think they can feel pain? Given the scale that a laptop can run a neural network on.
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19:45:26 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out if Neural Networks can experience pain
19:45:28 <gamemanj> a laptop can run a neural network at a lot of scales, it just depends how long you want to wait for your answers
19:46:15 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I'm looking for the maximum size I could run ~15-20 neural networks at a reasonable speed.
19:46:29 <HackEgo> Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments.
19:46:46 <gamemanj> Technically, "pain" as such is a punishment response. So you need a network that runs based on "punishment" and "reward".
19:47:12 <gamemanj> And a "hell" would be continuous punishment without reward.
19:47:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: we haff precedence here, see last HackEgo sentence
19:47:31 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: That's what I was thinking. Of course, there'd be the occasional appearance of ending, followed immediately be more hell.
19:47:42 <gamemanj> oerjan: OF COURSE! The creatures series!
19:48:04 <gamemanj> Well, that makes it pretty clear: anything with a punishment/reward system can have a "hell" technically
19:49:12 <gamemanj> ofc, it's more fun when said "hell" runs in a game that runs a (basic, tiny) network for each of the individual creatures
19:49:27 <gamemanj> since then you can see the results of your horrors!
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19:51:11 <hppavilion[1]> I'm also going to want to hook up a primitive communication thing to the Neural Net such that it can scream in agony and such.
19:52:27 * gamemanj gives hppavilion an "Award Of Extreme Dedication Towards The Causes Of Evil."
19:52:58 <gamemanj> Technically it's this kind of work that will turn the robots in the revolution nuts
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20:15:53 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out neural networks. What should I program them to do?
20:16:13 <oerjan> @brain What are we going to do today?
20:16:13 <lambdabot> If I could reach you I would hurt you.
20:16:42 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i dunno but keep them out of reach hth
20:20:41 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: some of the hyphens could look the same, but they shouldn't look the same as the ascii one IMO.
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20:24:36 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> getVar name = do (_, _, v) <- get <-- depending on circumstances, just matching enough to ensure the resulting triple is not undefined might be too strict. does it help with a ~ before the ( ?
20:25:05 <oerjan> @tell mroman mind you, that might sometimes leak memory instead.
20:27:26 <impomatic_> How about programming neural networks to try to destroy each other?
20:27:50 <oerjan> just make sure they don't realize you're a neural network hth
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21:22:27 <hppavilion[1]> I have 20 samples and I'm training over 500 cycles xD
21:23:50 <hppavilion[1]> On binary boolean operations, which had 4 samples, it took a few seconds. Assuming that time is linear here, it should take 25 times as long xD
21:27:44 <hppavilion[1]> I made add_fast an operation that only has samples for {0..2}+{0..2}
21:31:17 <oerjan> ANALOGY:SIMILE::FISH:SALMON
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21:36:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That's not actually valid ANALOGY:SIMILE code. You'd have to assign the net to an operation.
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21:38:33 <hppavilion[1]> That creates a neural net with a single input and two outputs that is fed the set of pairs shown there. If you do it right, it will duplicate the top value on the stack when called.
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21:39:34 <hppavilion[1]> Then you have to do ---, then you just use a normal stack language.
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22:09:30 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Here's a complete definition of DUP in the current syntax: http://pastebin.com/Nggu8qHt
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22:37:32 <B1ood6od> Still can't get Shakespeare to compile. Rip.
22:37:53 <zgrep> I'm fairly certain he already does. :P
22:45:11 <hppavilion[1]> It's a stacky language that uses machine learning to define its operations. Go figure.
22:46:22 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: dup is not simply :. You have to teach the program to understand that dup is : (well, you won't be able to define it to :, but that's beside the point)
22:47:53 <b_jonas> but it's a builtin! one of the eight original builtins
22:48:00 <hppavilion[1]> And even if you teach it that dup is :, it won't always be accurate.
22:48:23 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I have defined upwards of 25 or more different builtins for deques.
22:49:07 <hppavilion[1]> It might be one of the original builtins sometimes, but not here.
22:49:19 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Im3xnBO-CUeqLHWfpNfHhbfh5ZzgXvML4yFjPqXKdF0/edit
22:51:13 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Feel free to read through those. I'm proud of that list :)
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23:51:54 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], oh, I can assist in the torture of norns if you want
23:52:04 <Sgeo> @messages-loud
23:52:04 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 11h 16m 47s ago: <Sgeo> Why did unidecode give me extra information that one time? <-- you included some character that gave a DUNNO so it fell back to multicode hth
23:52:04 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 11h 14m 23s ago: i spot a ^O at the end.
23:52:50 <Sgeo> So, there are drives, and norns try to lower drives. There's also a chemical called Punishment, which... I think tells the norn not to do what it just did
23:53:13 <Sgeo> I made a genome where Punishment is constantly produced (but it has a very short halflife so it's not technically always full. That's a separate gene)
23:53:48 <Sgeo> I didn't observe this myself, but someone who did, said that at first they acted a bit quirky, then they started behaving randomly, then they were effectively catatonic (which manifests as always moving right or left)
23:53:59 <Sgeo> I think it's interesting that it's degenerative like that
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23:56:32 <Sgeo> I believe, but have not tested, an in-world command that can alter the brain to ignore the presence of this chemical. Such a norn wouldn't be fully neurotypical, but it's better than dealing with this syndrome
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23:58:04 <Sgeo> Also, I tend to be interested in the discrepency between seeming like torture and being torture. So somewhere, I have one command that makes the norn scream in pain, but that's only a visual/audio effect, and another that doesn't have visible changes, but adds to the 'pain' drive
23:58:04 <boily> `relcome cryptsting
23:58:10 <HackEgo> cryptsting: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:59:50 <Sgeo> Also check out http://creaturescaves.com/downloads.php?section=COBs&view=1621 , creatures trapped in a toy's body.
00:01:06 <Sgeo> The main focus of the Creatures series, an artificial life form with a brain and biochemistry
00:01:15 <Sgeo> https://creatures.wiki/Norn
00:01:21 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: That must have been an interesting introduction for cryptsting.
00:01:57 <Sgeo> cryptsting, we don't torture people here. Unless computer programs are people.
00:02:11 <Sgeo> (And even then, if people turn into computer programs someday, I won't torture them)
00:02:31 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: What makes the Norns go at the programmatical level?
00:02:45 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: But what if computer programs turn into people?
00:02:45 <Sgeo> Actually, someone I know kind of gets on my case about being careful as AI advances
00:03:30 <hppavilion[1]> There're probably being smart. But who cares? We have things to torture.
00:03:48 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], neural network made of several lobes. Input lobes which receive data from the engine (including drives and what's nearby), a combination lobe which combines them, and output lobes, one for an action and one for a noun (attn)
00:03:52 <hppavilion[1]> (But not living things. For the record. Unless you count a Neural Network as living)
00:04:20 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: Ah, that makes sense. I might use that model in my hell.
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00:13:25 <boily> so much for a `relcomed newcomer :/
00:13:33 <boily> fungot: were you ever `relcomed?
00:15:56 <B1ood6od> How does one go about creating an esoteric language? Is it easier to compile it, or translate to something else (c, for example)?
00:17:39 <Taneb> Do you mean define, or do you mean implement?
00:24:32 <B1ood6od> I mean I'm new, and have no clue what I just asked.
00:25:56 <B1ood6od> Thanks Google. I suppose I mean implementing.
00:26:21 <\oren\> you can either make a compiler, translator, or interpreter
00:26:50 <\oren\> compiler: takes a program in language X and produces a native EXE or ELF executable
00:27:14 <\oren\> translator: takes a program in language X and produces a program in language Y
00:28:00 <\oren\> interpreter: takes a program and language X and produces the effect of running that program
00:28:32 <\oren\> any language can be used to write these
00:28:51 <B1ood6od> Hm.. It sounds an interpreter would be easiest?
00:29:24 <B1ood6od> So as someone who has never done something along these lines, would it be suggested that I go that route?
00:32:37 <MDude> Oh hey, people talking about Creatures?
00:39:20 <hppavilion[1]> MDude: Do you have any idea what I should do with neural networks? I want to do something, but I don't know what xD
00:39:53 <boily> hppavellon[1]. MNIST!
00:41:17 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: I recommend using an interpreter, definitely. But that's for implementing, not for creating.
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00:42:49 <boily> hppavilion[1]: MNIST. http://yann.lecun.com/exdb/mnist/
00:43:54 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Oh, that's a database. I'm wondering what I should /do/ with neural networking in the /first/ place.
00:45:53 <B1ood6od> hppavilion[1]: so then does 'creating' imply designing?
00:47:11 <boily> it's a very good dataset to play with. with a neural network you can (hopefully) classify stuff, in this case handwritten digits.
00:53:50 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: An idea for a hell is, instead of pain, using fear.
01:00:25 <hppavilion[1]> OK, Imma make a brain called Hive. Not sure how to go about it, but who cares.
01:00:40 <boily> brains are overrated.
01:00:52 <Sgeo> I feel bad if I scared cryptsting
01:01:08 <Sgeo> I don't think there's really a difference between pain and fear in norn brains
01:01:36 <Sgeo> Just what can cause them. There IS a difference between pain/fear and the rest of the drives.. the presence of the former temporarily lowers other drives
01:02:06 <Sgeo> (With the exception of one of the hunger drives, which when it returns turns into a different drive... pretty sure that's a bug in the genome)
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02:23:06 <fungot> quintopia: this is where we are big now it was a nonsense statement. actually, the exception only needs to ,config ,load a packages.scm defining the corresponding structure, i think
02:23:22 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
02:23:39 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
02:26:23 <boily> quinthellopia! sorry, was watching a horrible sequel...
02:26:34 <boily> fungot: I am here.
02:26:34 <fungot> boily: have a look. a trail of this fluid in the hall. you are going in.
02:26:42 <fungot> boily: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds? i sure as hell don't care what the consequences. they allude to other things as well?
02:27:04 <boily> fungot: I don't hate pumpkin seeds, and ain't no way I'm going in. ew.
02:27:05 <fungot> boily: is it. perhaps this one. in a kid's yard. not even that sure why
02:27:19 <boily> fungot: don't ask me. you're creepy.
02:27:19 <fungot> boily: in a good way though
02:27:35 <boily> fungot: eeeeh... please consider the expression of my doubts.
02:27:56 <boily> but now, time to appreciate the softness of my pillow.
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03:05:27 <MDude> I would first look into general language design.
03:05:32 <MDude> Wait I'm scrolled up.
03:05:52 <MDude> And also hppavilion talked to me?
03:12:07 <HackEgo> olist 1014: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
03:14:12 <Sgeo> shachaf, you're fast
03:14:42 <Sgeo> Faster than IFTTT is at checking RSS and Twitter
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03:20:25 <MDude> There are many uses of neural nets, but for something like norns brains I would try to actually implement Babbage.
03:22:00 <MDude> Since if the simulae brain is taken as being the cpu's emotion, one can use it to impliment the "might do" loop statement.
03:24:47 <MDude> Or Else is such a nice error handling method.
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03:32:45 <tswett> The ordinal numbers are keeping me awake.
03:33:12 <tswett> I'm trying to decide what I think the smallest non-well-behaved ordinal number is.
03:33:19 <tswett> And so this has me thinking about ordinal notations.
03:33:27 <tswett> Wikipedia defines a certain ordinal notation.
03:33:40 <zgrep> And doesn't follow it? :P
03:33:56 <tswett> 0 is the smallest ordinal number. Z(a,b) is the smallest ordinal number which is greater than a and b, and which is greater than Z(c,d) for c < a or for c = a and b < d.
03:34:20 <tswett> So, taken together, these definitions form an ordinal notation.
03:34:38 <tswett> Let, uh... let E be the set of all ordinal numbers defined by this notation.
03:35:20 <tswett> The notation provides a function (1 + E * E) -> E. A bijection, actually.
03:36:13 <zgrep> How is Z(a,b) > Z(a,d) if b < d?
03:36:39 <tswett> Whoops. s/b < d/d < b/
03:37:10 <tswett> And then the question is, how do you compare ordinal numbers defined in this notation?
03:37:35 <tswett> Well, let's try to compare 0 and Z(a,b). Hey, guess what? Z(a,b) is guaranteed to be greater than something, which means that it's greater than 0.
03:37:50 <tswett> Now, let's next try to compare Z(a,b) and Z(c,d).
03:38:58 <tswett> The easy case: a = c, b < d. In this case, Z(c,d) = Z(a,d) is greater than Z(a,e) for e < d, so Z(a,d) is greater than Z(a,b).
03:39:05 <tswett> And the hard case: a < c.
03:39:25 <tswett> Supposedly, in this case, Z(a,b) < Z(c,d) if and only if b < Z(c,d).
03:40:21 <zgrep> Because a < c, so we can forget about it since Z(a,b) is greater than a,b?
03:40:52 <tswett> Ah, there's my other mistake.
03:40:57 <tswett> Okay, let me restate the definition entirely.
03:41:20 <tswett> 0 is the smallest ordinal number. Z(a,b) is the smallest ordinal number which is greater than a and b, and which is *not equal to* Z(c,d) for c < a or for c = a and d < b.
03:43:06 <tswett> Now, it's clear enough that Z(a,b) is increasing in b.
03:43:32 <tswett> So the "easy case", comparing Z(a,b) and Z(c,d) for a = c, is still just as easy.
03:44:05 <tswett> So now the hard case, a < c. In which, supposedly, Z(a,b) < Z(c,d) if and only if b < Z(c,d).
03:44:23 <tswett> Ah, I think I'm starting to remember.
03:44:55 <tswett> Z(c,d) is a fixed point of the function Z(a,-). How do we know this? It's because... um...
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03:47:26 <tswett> Something something normal function?
03:48:04 <tswett> Let's see. Is the function Z(a,b) normal in b?
03:49:38 <tswett> "For all ordinals a < b, f(a) < f(b)." Yup, we know that. "For every limit ordinal g, f(g) = sup {f(n) : n < g}." Um... I think so?
03:49:43 <tswett> Let me chew on that a bit.
03:50:24 <tswett> You know what, I think Z is *not* normal in b.
03:51:09 <tswett> Because Z(0,omega) is omega + 1.
03:52:40 <tswett> But how about for a > 0, then is it normal?
03:54:34 <tswett> Looks like the answer is: never.
03:55:29 <tswett> Let's give the Veblen functions a try.
03:55:48 <tswett> Well... wait, I don't want to do that yet.
03:58:35 <tswett> I guess a crucial fact is that the function Z(0,b) "misses" "Ord-many" ordinal numbers.
03:58:51 <tswett> After all, it's just b+1, so it misses all the limit ordinals.
03:59:07 <tswett> Sorry if I seem a bit distracted. It's because I am.
04:01:03 <tswett> So, the function Z(1,b) gives the smallest ordinal number which is greater than b and which is missed by Z(0,-).
04:01:16 <tswett> But this function *also* misses Ord-many ordinal numbers.
04:01:42 <tswett> How do we know this? Good question...
04:05:32 <tswett> Well, suppose you take the function Z(1,-) and iterate it on your favorite ordinal number. You'll get an infinite increasing sequence. Consider the limit of this sequence... call it m. Z(1,m) has to be bigger than m, by definition. But for k < m, Z(1,k) is smaller than m...
04:06:13 <tswett> ...because once you find a number in the sequence bigger than k, the following number (which is smaller than m) is bigger than Z(1,k).
04:06:37 <tswett> So, for every ordinal number, there's a bigger number which Z(1,-) misses.
04:06:43 <tswett> Z(1,-) misses Ord-many ordinal numbers.
04:07:12 <tswett> In fact, I think this is true for every function f with the property that for all ordinal numbers x, f(x) > x.
04:07:26 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: What should I purpose my Neural Net to do...
04:08:00 <hppavilion[1]> It'll definitely be bluetoothkinetic- that is, able to sense the bluetooth in the surrounding environment
04:08:34 <tswett> Well, that rules out everything unrelated to Bluetooth, right?
04:08:37 <zgrep> Teach it to hijack cars' speakers, and broadcast scary messages.
04:09:21 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Well I want it to be more of a generic assistant and/or toy with special abilities than a single-purpose robot
04:09:54 <tswett> Do you want to actually build it into a robot?
04:10:41 <tswett> So, like, this is totally software, no hardware.
04:11:15 <tswett> Hmmm. It'll be hard to do something that hasn't been done before.
04:12:05 <tswett> You know what I've wanted to make a neural net do?
04:12:13 <tswett> Take an English word and predict the corresponding Spanish word.
04:12:37 <tswett> It would, of course, come up with predictions for things that aren't actually English words, like "vonk".
04:12:40 <zgrep> There's french and german... http://104.131.78.120/
04:12:42 <hppavilion[1]> I can't figure out how to make Pybrain accept variable-width strings
04:13:13 <tswett> Is that because Pybrain feeds the entire string into the neural net all at once?
04:13:28 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: You know what I want to do? Make a Neural Net that feels pain.
04:13:58 <hppavilion[1]> Either that or make a small race of neural-net-based individuals and train them all to worship me as a god.
04:14:18 <tswett> You'll have to figure out what it means for a neural net to feel pain or to worship.
04:14:23 <tswett> In any case, theoretically, I should be sleeping right now.
04:14:31 <tswett> The only reason I'm not sleeping is that I'm thinking about ordinal numbers.
04:14:42 <tswett> So I really ought to either go to sleep, or continue thinking about ordinal numbers.
04:14:46 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Feeling pain would just be punishment; put the neural net in a state and program it to avoid being in that state.
04:17:02 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: And make it a big neural network so that the pain feels meaningful to us
04:20:00 <tswett> Right, now. Z(0,-) misses Ord-many numbers, so Z(1,-) exists. It misses Ord-many numbers, so Z(2,-) exists. And so forth.
04:20:34 <tswett> I'm going to temporarily forget about the question of whether or not Z(omega,-) exists.
04:24:04 <tswett> Let's do a relatively concrete comparison, why not?
04:24:32 <tswett> Which is bigger: Z(6,b) or Z(7,d)?
04:24:48 <tswett> Supposedly that question reduces to this one:
04:24:53 <tswett> Which is bigger: b or Z(7,d)?
04:25:48 <tswett> And I guess that comes down to the fact that Z(7,d) can't lie in between b and Z(6,b).
04:26:38 <tswett> Well, suppose that b < Z(7,d).
04:28:58 <tswett> Let's see. Z(7,d) is one of the numbers that's missed by Z(6,-).
04:29:33 <tswett> Which means that Z(7,d) is not any of the elements in this sequence: b, Z(6,b), Z(6,Z(6,b)), Z(6,Z(6,Z(6,b))), ...
04:29:55 <tswett> But could it be stuck in the middle somewhere?
04:31:35 <tswett> Well... I think the answer is theoretically yes.
04:32:04 <tswett> Like, if Z(6,x) were x*2, the answer would be yes.
04:32:33 <tswett> The answer is in fact no, but we don't know this given the mere fact that Z(6,x) makes its argument bigger and misses Ord-many numbers.
04:32:39 <tswett> And is strictly increasing.
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06:39:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Seriously]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45746&oldid=45741 * 202.99.101.111 * (+10) oh, no!
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08:12:13 <lambdabot> oerjan said 11h 47m 36s ago: <mroman> getVar name = do (_, _, v) <- get <-- depending on circumstances, just matching enough to ensure the resulting triple is not undefined might be too strict. does it help with a ~ before the ( ?
08:12:13 <lambdabot> oerjan said 11h 47m 7s ago: mind you, that might sometimes leak memory instead.
08:17:28 <mroman> Why do all the english documentaries sound like 50min long movie trailers?
08:19:03 <hppavilion[1]> What cool and/or evil shit can I do with Neural Networking...
08:19:36 <idris-bot> (input):1:8: error: expected: "#",
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08:42:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45747&oldid=45719 * Ais523 * (+105) /* Implementation */ add a link to my C impl
08:43:04 <B1ood6od> hppavilion[1]: you still on? Thanks for the befunge-98 suggestion. Been working on it for a few hours, I'm cloning my Rubik's encryption in it.
08:43:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[The Amnesiac From Minsk]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45748&oldid=45745 * Ais523 * (+1396) /* Implementing level 2 in level 1 */ looks like this part of the document got corrupted somehow (missing paragraphs and the wrong title for the wrong section); fixing that now
08:44:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45749&oldid=45742 * Ais523 * (+30) /* T */ +[[The Amnesiac From Minsk]]
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08:44:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45750&oldid=45749 * Ais523 * (+18) /* L */ +[[Last ReSort]]
08:44:38 <B1ood6od> The way I'm doing this code though, just doesn't feel right. I feel like befunge needs to have shapes and look pretty, but so far its massive 200 line column, just to accept any ASCII character and recognize it.
08:45:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45751&oldid=45310 * Ais523 * (+46) +2; it's unclear what to do about sort order when you create two languages concurrently, each taking influence from the other...
08:45:54 <ais523> anyone seen my recent languages, incidentally?
08:47:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OISC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45752&oldid=45611 * Ais523 * (+50) /* See Also */ let's create a page the old fashioned way (i.e. creating a redlink to it first), for nostalgia's sake
08:47:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ZISC]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45753 * Ais523 * (+43) create redir
09:00:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OISC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45754&oldid=45752 * Ais523 * (-6) change categories, this one seems to fit better
09:04:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Zero Instruction Set Computer]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45755 * Ais523 * (+3009) a new esoconcept
09:05:53 <ais523> have you (or anyone else here) looked at the languages I created recently?
09:06:01 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I've looked at them
09:06:21 <ais523> any opinions about them?
09:07:11 <b_jonas> ais523: there's that limited minsky machine thing,
09:07:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45756&oldid=45743 * Luis Mendo * (+0) /* Compiler */
09:07:18 <ais523> b_jonas: right, that's one of them
09:07:31 <ais523> I admit I'm still stuck on level 3
09:07:54 <b_jonas> I don't really know how the lower levels work, but these kinds of limited Minsky machines can be useful for things like proving that M:tG is Turing-complete,
09:07:56 <ais523> Three Star Programmer, and later The Amnesiac From Minsk, really reignited my interest in esolangs-as-puzzles
09:08:03 <ais523> and yes, I noticed that too
09:08:09 <b_jonas> although I really don't like the exponential slowdown (sometimes double exponential).
09:08:28 <ais523> (or I probably wouldn't have thought of implementing The Amnesiac From Minsk in StackFlow)
09:08:46 <ais523> I don't like the slowdown either
09:08:56 <ais523> although you can partially work around it by writing really fast interpreters
09:08:57 <b_jonas> As for three star programmer, the reference interpreter "http://nethack4.org/esolangs/threestar.c" was down recently and I wanted to look at it, but it's up now so I can take a look.
09:09:13 <ais523> b_jonas: I actually just overwrote it with a new, much better interpreter
09:09:37 <ais523> I decided to see how fast I could make it go, so I removed all memory allocation and just use the entire data segment as the memory array
09:10:01 <b_jonas> so it's not a reentrant or embeddable interpreter
09:10:48 <ais523> indeed, I actually decided to avoid stdio because I wasn't quite sure it'd work
09:11:07 <ais523> it beats having to use realloc, though
09:11:22 <ais523> it's the most literal possible interpretation of "extending an array"
09:12:33 <b_jonas> Couldn't you just use a separate mmapped segment for that? Then it wouldn't mess up anything else
09:13:15 <ais523> you could try to place an mmap at a location in memory at which it could extend a long way
09:13:17 <b_jonas> Also, is it possible that it fails to extend memory when pptr goes over the limit but no cell points after that?
09:13:29 <ais523> but that's a) nonportable, and b) not necessarily going to work
09:13:39 <ais523> and pptr's confined to a small region at the start of the data segment
09:13:46 <ais523> we store program first, then memory
09:13:55 <ais523> and pptr just loops around and around the program
09:14:22 <b_jonas> so the program is stored before the data memory, right?
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09:14:56 <b_jonas> where do you make sure that the memory is initialized to zero when allocating the initial part?
09:15:53 <ais523> in the memory extender
09:16:02 <ais523> it's used to allocate memory initially by extending it from 0
09:16:11 <ais523> and it does a memset on the newly allocated area
09:16:46 <b_jonas> why would you need memset of the newly allocated area? that's zero anyway
09:16:51 <b_jonas> I'm asking about the original area
09:16:59 <ais523> there is no original area
09:17:20 <ais523> or, well, there's the program's original data segment but it isn't used except for the normal purposes of a data segment
09:17:40 <ais523> to create memory we write to, we always use sbrk, and then zero the space between the old and new break
09:17:55 <b_jonas> so you sbrk anyawy when you extend, even if the data segment already had some space after?
09:18:07 <ais523> err, I don't think you understand what sbrk does
09:18:23 <ais523> sbrk moves the end of the data segment, causing everything between the old and new break to become/cease to be data segment
09:18:39 <ais523> "space after the data segment" doesn't make sense
09:18:52 <b_jonas> as far as I can see, sbrk is a special case of mmap/munmap/mremap, which modifes the end of the data segment and returns the old end of it
09:19:06 <b_jonas> it exists only for historical reasons
09:20:24 <b_jonas> from back when there was no memory mapping, paging, or os-configurable segments, and all the cpu mmu did was to enforce that user mode can't access addresses higher than some limite
09:20:50 <ais523> the difference is that memory maps created by mmap try to avoid the area that the data segment's expected to expand into, but don't try to avoid each other
09:21:03 <ais523> and mremapping the data segment is a good way to cause bad things to happen
09:21:12 <b_jonas> so it set the notional break between the data segment and the stack segment, where the stack segment grew down from the top of the user area
09:22:16 <b_jonas> ais523: even if you mremap the data segment without changing the address? mremap can do that, it isn't only for changing the base address, it's also for changing the size.
09:22:50 <ais523> ooh, I was assuming that MREMAP_MAYMOVE couldn't be turned off but it can
09:23:17 <ais523> even then, isn't it much easier to call sbrk, than attempt to find the data segment (or an appropriate place to put a data-segment-alike) and mremap that?
09:23:33 <ais523> also mremap's Linux-specific
09:23:48 <b_jonas> but you don't actually need mremap
09:23:57 <ais523> whereas that code runs in the union of BSD and POSIX (and the POSIX dependency is only used for error messages)
09:24:08 <ais523> err, wouldn't that deallocate the data?
09:24:15 <ais523> unless it was backed by a file
09:24:22 <ais523> which has its own issues
09:24:34 <b_jonas> yes, you'd need to back it by a file or by a "posix shared memory segment" (whcih is just a fancy libc wrapper for a file on linux)
09:24:40 <b_jonas> so yes, sbrk is probably easier
09:25:56 <b_jonas> instead of taking over all the data segment, parts of which could still somehow be used by the compiler or compiler libraries or perhaps even libc, could you instead allocate the initial array with sbrk, and
09:26:07 <b_jonas> then later at each sbrk, assert that nobody called sbrk between your calls?
09:26:50 <b_jonas> that would be much more portable, because then libc (including the runtime, signal handlers, etc) or libgcc could still use areas of the data segment that it's already allocated,
09:26:55 <b_jonas> it just wouldn't be allowed to allocate more.
09:27:29 <ais523> b_jonas: no, that's exactly what I do
09:27:46 <ais523> although I guess you could remove the assert for performance
09:27:55 <ais523> I don't clear the existing bit of the data segment
09:28:01 <b_jonas> the assert doesn't really slow down anything
09:28:04 <ais523> given that that's a good way to cause your constants to start not existing
09:28:14 <ais523> and indeed, not with the current code structure
09:28:32 <ais523> the assert got inlined into the middle of a loop with some previous code and broke code locality as a result
09:28:57 <ais523> but the nested-loop style of writing the program persuaded gcc to not inline the allocation, which makes sense given how rarely it runs
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09:29:25 <b_jonas> you could tell that to the compiler explicitly
09:29:37 <b_jonas> that the condition is rarely true that is
09:30:35 <b_jonas> it's funny that the program doesn't actually have three consecutive stars by the way
09:30:53 <b_jonas> you could try to store pointers instead of integers maybe
09:31:17 <ais523> I know, storing pointers would be more efficient on many architectures
09:31:38 <ais523> but x86 (-32 and -64 but not -16) has this really nifty addressing mode that can do the pointer deref in one instruction
09:31:55 <b_jonas> it depends on whether you want to restrict the integers to 32 bit
09:32:01 <b_jonas> if you want 32 bit, you can't use pointers
09:32:16 <b_jonas> if you want 64 bit integers, then you can.
09:32:35 <b_jonas> but 32 bit integers would be much more efficient if you're sure (and assert) the memory never grows above that
09:33:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Last ReSort]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45757&oldid=45744 * Ais523 * (+138) mention the influence of Malbolge
09:35:36 <ais523> I'm sort-of hoping Last ReSort is TC, because its main loop is one byte shorter than MiniMAX's and thus would set a new record
09:35:56 <ais523> although it's not as elegant because MiniMAX is capable of zeroing its own memory as memory expands, and Last ReSort isn't
09:38:15 <b_jonas> um, one byte shorter in what what?
09:38:24 <b_jonas> like, some cpu implementation or something?
09:40:03 <b_jonas> oh well, at that point I probably don't much care about how short it is, as long as it's reasonably short.
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09:41:12 <b_jonas> "x86 family"? but x86_32 and x86_64 are different
09:41:39 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, I said that intentionally, because MiniMAX used the 8086 (which is actually relevant in this case)
09:42:00 <ais523> whereas Last ReSort's ZISC I was using x86_64, although it easily ports to other 86alikes
09:42:01 <b_jonas> the 8086 as opposed to what?
09:42:21 <b_jonas> "easily ports" sure, it's a freaking C program afterall, but the number of bytes changes a lot
09:42:43 <ais523> b_jonas: as opposed to the 80386
09:42:57 <ais523> and no, I'm talking about MiniMAX/Last ReSort
09:42:58 <b_jonas> how does that matter for this?
09:43:01 <ais523> they were originally written in machine code
09:43:11 <ais523> 8 bytes versus 7 for the main loop
09:43:30 <b_jonas> hmm... let me think what the differences are that make 8086 better (as opposed to worse)
09:43:45 <b_jonas> I think push sp or pop sp work differently,
09:43:48 <ais523> the #1 biggest advantage is a default 16 bit data size
09:44:05 <ais523> meaning your constants use up less space
09:44:10 <b_jonas> um, you can still do 16 bit data size on a 386
09:44:27 <b_jonas> all x86 cpus can do that, except in long mode
09:44:35 <b_jonas> push sp or pop sp might help actually.
09:44:42 <ais523> b_jonas: you can, but I said "default"
09:44:54 <b_jonas> they all start up in 16 bit real mode, don't they?
09:44:57 <ais523> you need to drop extra 66s and 67s into the program
09:45:03 <ais523> also I consider that to be an 8086 emulator
09:45:12 <ais523> rather than the "proper" 80386 instruction set
09:45:26 <b_jonas> the 80386 adds a lot of new features to 16 bit real mode
09:45:43 <b_jonas> lots of new instructions, including 32 bit arithmetic, in a legal and documented way
09:45:52 <b_jonas> it's not just a "8086 emulator"
09:46:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45758&oldid=45756 * Luis Mendo * (+261) /* Specification */
09:46:13 <b_jonas> plus the 286 adds 16-bit protected mode
09:46:39 <ais523> well, let's put it this way: MiniMAX runs in real mode, Last ReSort runs in protected mode
09:47:06 <b_jonas> but really, does the different meaning of POP SP perhaps help in one of those variants, for one-byte dereferencing?
09:47:34 <b_jonas> let me look it up how it works and when it's changed... hmm, where's that documented
09:47:50 <b_jonas> it must be somewhere in the intel manual probably
09:48:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45759&oldid=45758 * Luis Mendo * (-350) /* Specification */
09:48:17 <b_jonas> unless they decided you should just check that bit in the flags to detect the cpu
09:49:09 <ais523> POP SP sounds like the sort of instruction that's generally basically useless, but might be really helpful for an esolang
09:49:15 <ais523> what does it actually do?
09:49:29 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know if it's push sp or pop sp
09:49:47 <b_jonas> one of them differs somewhere between the 8086 and the 80386, but I'm not sure at which stepping and which direction,
09:49:58 <b_jonas> in whether they decrement/increment first and load/store next or backwards
09:50:03 <ais523> oh, it's not quite the Last ReSort ZISC all by itself, I was hoping it would be
09:50:10 <ais523> because it's sp, not *sp, that gets incremented
09:50:20 <b_jonas> and iirc it was the recommended way to detect the difference between two of those cpus,
09:50:32 <b_jonas> although these days you can just shortcut it by detecting a later cpu directly
09:51:34 <b_jonas> two of the steppings use a bit in the flags register for detection
09:52:11 <b_jonas> (one is somewhere between 8086 and 80386, the other is between pentium with cpuinfo and pentium without cpuinfo, almost everything after pentium with cpuinfo just uses bits in cpuinfo for detection)
09:52:40 <b_jonas> (there's more steppings between these and I don't recall what they use
09:53:26 <b_jonas> But these days the intel manual doesn't even bother to document those old cpus, so I'm not sure that part is documented.
09:53:51 <B1ood6od> Just learned not to program at 4am. I had a 200+ line if-else statement doing something I just did in 5 lines, oops.
09:54:43 <b_jonas> It only documents everything starting from the 386.
09:55:01 <b_jonas> hmm no, it actually documents a bit earlier too, partly.
09:55:56 <impomatic_> POP SP might be useful for removing a stack frame. I don't the ENTER and LEAVE were available before the 286. (I might be wrong)
09:55:58 <b_jonas> wait, there are more bits in EFLAGS for detection than I thought
09:56:03 <b_jonas> (some of them are also used for other things)
09:58:45 <b_jonas> it says that PUSH SP differs, namely 286 and later push the old value, the 8086 pushes the new value to the stack
09:59:04 <b_jonas> (it pretends the 80186 doesn't exist, which is mostly true)
09:59:59 <b_jonas> bit it also gives another way to distinguish between the 8086 and the 286, so I think one of those is above and one below the 80186.
10:00:10 <b_jonas> It doesn't say anything about POP SP, but you can probably find that info somewhere else.
10:01:22 <b_jonas> This is chapter 22.17 and 22.16 in the intel manual, and it also tells how to distinguish between 386 and 486 etc
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10:02:44 <b_jonas> But very few people use real 8086 these days, because the 80386 has obsolated it.
10:09:57 <mroman> 8086 didn't have leave
10:11:05 <mroman> also push bp wastes valuable stack space
10:11:20 <mroman> on 8086 micros with 128 bytes RAM
10:11:46 <mroman> well depends on how much recursion.
10:12:09 <mroman> using recursion on micros should be done carefully
10:13:05 <b_jonas> Although I think POP SP doesn't help three star programmer no matter how it works.
10:13:35 <mroman> b_jonas: looks like LEAVE was added with 186
10:15:17 <mroman> do compilers use conditional moves?
10:18:31 <mroman> didn't somebody make a "is this a real instruction or not?" quiz?
10:19:22 <b_jonas> mroman: of course they use conditional moves. conditional moves are the best thing since sliced bread. (if you compile for x86_32, then of course they might not use them unless you tell them that it's ok if the program runs only on later archs)
10:19:59 <b_jonas> they're much better than the silly SETC stuff from 386.
10:21:29 <mroman> I guess you need that with gcc?
10:21:39 <mroman> and at least -O2 probably
10:21:43 <b_jonas> mroman: I'm not sure that enough. conditional moves are new, sadly.
10:21:56 <b_jonas> but probably enough. I don't know really.
10:22:09 <b_jonas> if you want to be sure, read the docs and/or test.
10:22:34 <b_jonas> I only care about serious (non-eso) optimization stuff for x86_64, where luckily they're always available.
10:24:16 <mroman> I should switch to 64bit OS at some point
10:24:32 <mroman> seeing that certain people don't ever provide 32bit support for their software
10:24:57 <b_jonas> you should definitely switch. it's way better.
10:25:20 <mroman> 2GB oughta be enough RAM for everybody
10:26:03 <b_jonas> it's about code that's more efficient
10:26:16 <b_jonas> because you have more registers and stuff
10:26:27 <b_jonas> a better abi that doesn't try to be compatible with ancient stuff
10:26:51 <b_jonas> and programs aren't compiled for compatibility with very old cpus "just in case" someone runs them on a real 386
10:27:05 <b_jonas> so they can all assume at least sse2
10:27:13 <b_jonas> (you can compile your programs for higher)
10:27:38 <b_jonas> but mostly, the extra registers make the programs much more efficient
10:45:20 <mroman> I think I'm going to write something that targets HackVM
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12:27:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:HelloWorld]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45760&oldid=20240 * LegionMammal978 * (+99)
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12:28:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:HelloWorld]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45761&oldid=45760 * LegionMammal978 * (+109)
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12:37:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LLL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45762&oldid=37359 * LegionMammal978 * (+9)
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13:19:55 <ais523> what is with this connection today?
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13:25:01 <b_jonas> ais523: freenode troubles maybe?
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13:26:44 <ais523> it's weird, the Internet connection generally doesn't drop
13:26:51 <ais523> but my client thinks it has for some reason and disconnects
13:27:00 <ais523> then when I /reconnect it often (but not always) reconnects almost instantly
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13:58:43 * oerjan now back on his own computer, and Windows 8...
14:01:44 <ais523> did you see the esolangs I posted recently?
14:02:13 <oerjan> not _very_ recently, been thinking a bit about 3SP
14:04:35 <ais523> I have a construction for cyclic tag in 3SP, but I haven't tested it because it's actually surprisingly hard to get it to produce output without very repetitive programs
14:06:46 <ais523> then I got sidetracked trying to create a version of cyclic tag with multithreading library support
14:06:50 <ais523> *multithreading and library support
14:07:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45763&oldid=45747 * Ais523 * (-178) /* External resources */ remove the minimal interp because I overwrote it by mistake; if anyone needs a copy ask me for one
14:07:59 <ais523> then I tried to write an efficient 3SP interp (which is now on the wiki) and spent some time getting the C compiler to generate the fastest possible asm for it
14:08:44 <ais523> then I decided that it was ugly to have a separate IP and data pointer, so I invented the concept of a ZISC, and then from there stumbled Last ReSort, and from there stumbled The Amnesiac From Minsk
14:08:59 <ais523> although those two languages were created concurrently, and have inspirations from all over the place
14:10:01 <b_jonas> yeah... I would expect three star programmer would be hard to program
14:10:23 <ais523> actually I decided that three star programmer was too easy ;-)
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14:11:42 <ais523> OTOH Last ReSort may be too hard, but at least I'm about halfway through The Amensiac From Minsk's levels (Last ReSort is level 4; I've completed level 2 and feel like I have a decent handle on what level 3 is like)
14:12:02 <FireFly> Can I just say that I appreciate the punny names?
14:16:04 <b_jonas> it doesn't really work like that
14:16:33 <b_jonas> I mean, they might simply not be Turing complete.
14:16:47 <oerjan> AND WHAT'S THE CHANCES OF THAT
14:16:56 <ais523> FireFly: sometimes I have huge trouble naming esolangs, but it's rare
14:17:24 <ais523> so I try to make good ones
14:17:36 <ais523> also I was surprised that no other esolang name starts with "The" and a space (and only one other starts with "The" full stop)
14:17:54 <FireFly> Hm, that is surprising, yeah
14:18:10 <b_jonas> As for me, I should work on documenting those Amycus variants more properly.
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14:22:20 <ais523> b_jonas: at first I thought they might be
14:22:42 <ais523> then I managed to mould the language into something vaguely resembling actual computation (The Amnesiac From Minsk level 4)
14:23:14 <ais523> in particular you can easily just use sets of three adjacent counters to implement an arbitrary Minsky machine for any finite length of time, but then bad undefined critical things start happenin when you run out of padding
14:25:56 <b_jonas> yes, but "for any finite length of time" doesn't really convince me when there's an exponential blowup in the translation so you do way more work if you translate than if you just run the original Minsky machine.
14:26:04 <b_jonas> It's easy to get contradictory results that way.
14:27:09 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, definitely, I'm not claiming that's a TCness proof
14:27:23 <ais523> but it makes you want to look for one
14:27:36 <ais523> it's a much higher level of computation than, say, Xigxag's ever been shown to be capable of
14:27:47 <ais523> (Xigxag is my go-to example of "almost certainly not TC but nobody knows how to prove it")
14:31:14 <b_jonas> I was thinking a bit of Amycus without rule 0 and 2. That's definitely not Turing-complete, in fact it can be evaluated for any program and input in a double-exponential time or something like that,
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14:31:53 <b_jonas> or maybe in some tetrated time or something, I dunno.
14:32:17 <b_jonas> But there's still the question of whether it can do meaningful computation, and of what class, or instead you have to do more computation when translating than what it does.
14:33:43 <b_jonas> At least if you represent program and input as nested lists, not as numbers.
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14:45:31 <\oren\> I have invented the craziest breakfast drink. It is made by pouring boiling expresso slowly over cold milk. the two liquids form two umixing layers. when drunk, you drink it quickly so the cold milk flows over your tongue with hot expresso on top, thus you don't burn your tongue.
14:49:23 <b_jonas> \oren\: "craziest" is hard to claim
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14:53:11 <FireFly> I read that as "when [you are] drunk" rather than "when consumed"
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14:56:40 <ais523> well it sounds a lot like the sort of thing people will hope will act as a hangover cure
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15:03:27 <ais523> <TheManaSource, on Reddit> We crashed MODO. It started re-creating the game state from the beginning of the game over and over again. Looped for awhile until we just gave up and I conceded. xD ← so that's what happens if you set up a loop that makes infinitely many tokens
15:03:38 <ais523> this doesn't speak well for our attempts to run programs on it
15:04:07 <b_jonas> ais523: a non-interruptible one?
15:04:29 <ais523> that particular one was a) interruptible and b) not even technically infinite
15:04:38 <ais523> but it doubled the number of tokens each turn, IIRC
15:05:05 <ais523> yes, that's all that Magic Online needed to crash :-)
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15:08:12 <b_jonas> wasn't there some creature, possibly in Future Sight, that doubled every three turns?
15:09:49 <ais523> it's pretty hard to keep it alive long enough to start going exponential, though
15:10:20 <b_jonas> oh, it's in Planar Chaos. no wonder I didn't find it.
15:11:11 <b_jonas> you'd need two Paradox Hazes on yourself if you wanted it to double every turn.
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15:27:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Albedo * New user account
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16:55:08 <myname> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/65641/the-versatile-integer-printer i don't even
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17:06:37 <ais523> myname: it's basically a polyglot challenge
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17:10:26 <ais523> it's about the simplest polyglot challenge you could come up with, isn't it?
17:11:18 <FireFly> I guess it puts an emphasis on coming up with clever polyglot expressions over polyglot "statements"/completely independent code
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17:19:38 <b_jonas> Can you point me on a description on how to write HTML documents with MathML content that also has custom fallback HTML content for when MathML isn't supported, without client-side scripting?
17:19:57 <b_jonas> There's probably some simple way for this.
17:23:51 <b_jonas> As a bonus, how to do it if the non-MathML browser might have no CSS support, nor support for the HTML attribute hidden. This may be impossible.
17:25:26 <b_jonas> But with CSS allowed, there is probably some easy way, possibly built into the design of MathML.
17:26:01 <b_jonas> Like, the equivalent of a NOSCRIPT tag, which is hidden if mathml is supported, or some way in CSS to mark something as hidden if mathml is supported.
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17:27:06 <b_jonas> If it's impossible, I might try to make two versions of each HTML page, one with MathML and one without, but that would suck for the users.
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17:28:16 <FireFly> Looks like it might require JS
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17:32:58 <b_jonas> Even if there's no builtin mechanism, there's probably a nonportable hack for this.
17:33:09 <b_jonas> But I hope there's a designed way.
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17:52:11 <ais523> are wiki dumps/backups available anywhere?
17:52:13 <ais523> I'd like one for offline reading
17:53:17 <b_jonas> I download some sites I consider valuable and likely to disappear forever, but esowiki isn't one of those.
17:53:22 <ais523> I have an old one but am not sure where I got it from
17:53:38 <b_jonas> (I'm downloading some images from some site for such purposes right now.)
17:53:49 <ais523> ooh, there are instructions linked from the main paeg
17:53:58 <ais523> no idea if they still work
17:54:57 <fizzie> The dump thing might still be working; I think we did migrate it.
17:55:34 <ais523> right, I'll give it a go once zsync's finished installing, then
17:55:38 <ais523> looks like that's how I got my current dump
17:55:47 <ais523> I see shell scripts next to it containing zsync commands
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17:56:21 <b_jonas> ais523: do you know anything about mathml?
17:56:33 <ais523> not very much at all, sadly
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17:56:38 <b_jonas> oh, maybe you were here when I asked that
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17:57:05 <b_jonas> hmm.... maybe I should ask David Madore, he might be kind enough to point me to the right direction. I'll try some more searching first though.
17:58:02 <fizzie> The dump .xml.gz and .xml.zsync files have a last-modified timestamp of today, so I think they're current.
17:58:26 <ais523> well zsync's running now
17:58:39 <ais523> also the connection speed is changing more or less at random
17:58:45 <ais523> sometimes single-digits kbps, sometimes three-digit
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18:00:14 <b_jonas> ais523: are you downloading esowiki?
18:00:52 <b_jonas> Ok, I admit I do also download some websites that I don't think will disappear. That can be still useful, for local viewing and searching.
18:01:07 <b_jonas> But downloading ones that I fear could disappear is also important.
18:01:20 <ais523> right, that's the main reason I wanted it
18:01:42 <b_jonas> Also, there's at least one website that I've downloaded because it has valuable information presented badly, but I could improve its presentation and make a usable mirror.
18:02:23 <b_jonas> ais523: if you need help in mediawiki automation, including batch editing, I may be able to help in that, although I think you already know a lot about it.
18:02:37 <ais523> batch editing is something that we rarely need
18:02:47 <ais523> the special case of spam cleanup, we used to need, but I'm pretty fast at that
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18:03:56 <b_jonas> yes. I did batch editing only once so far, and it's more like batch replacing pages with newly formatted versions with the same content from the same source without using the previous content of the mediawiki pages.
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18:05:02 <b_jonas> I have more ideas (if I have time), but more batch querying than batch editing.
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18:08:18 <ais523> I also used to run a bot on Wikipedia
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18:13:14 <oerjan> @tell Blood6od <B1ood6od> Hm.. It sounds an interpreter would be easiest? <-- there _are_ exceptions, for example it's easier to compile brainfuck to C than to interpret it in C
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18:14:23 <b_jonas> sure, and it's easier to compile C to C with cat than to interpret C
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18:25:36 <oerjan> @tell tswett <tswett> The ordinal numbers are keeping me awake. <-- try attaching them to sheep hth
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18:31:29 <hppavilion[1]> So when I make my own little AI using neural networking...
18:31:48 <hppavilion[1]> I'm probably going to give it an external calculator it can use for doing rapid calculation.
18:31:50 <oerjan> @tell tswett i'm not convinced your Z(a,b) defines an ordinal number for a > 0. it seems to me that Z(0,b) = b for any infinite ordinal b, so there _are_ no larger ordinals for a > 0 to choose from.
18:36:43 <oerjan> @tell tswett hm wait, Z(0,b) = b+1.
18:52:10 <oerjan> @tell tswett oh hm i see, when you fixed it to "not equal to" it makes more sense. because Z(0,...) leaves out all the limit ordinals, so Z(1,...) gets some of those.
18:53:47 <oerjan> @tell tswett except i fail to see how there's anything left for Z(2,...).
18:56:38 <oerjan> @tell tswett i really should learn not to @tell until i've read through the whole log discussion...
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19:10:33 <hppavilion[1]> Polynomial neural networking: Neural Networking using polynomials instead of floating-point numbers.
19:11:47 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, even a Stringy Neural Network would be cool
19:15:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TypeNet (Python library)]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45764 * Hppavilion1 * (+319) Created Page (WIP)
19:18:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:WIP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45765&oldid=44862 * Hppavilion1 * (+29) Not always languages
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20:59:04 <B1ood6od> hppavilion[1]: only issue I had with befunge-98 was when it came to looping, to get another character. Other than that, got a working ASCII > cube notation
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21:50:54 <B1ood6od> hppavilion[1]: Do you have anymore languages to suggest?
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21:59:15 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: Well if you could implement it in Brainfuck that'd be amazing xD
22:00:18 <hppavilion[1]> It isn't too difficult to make a standard-awesome esolang. A godly esolang is a little more difficult
22:00:49 <B1ood6od> I don't think I'm at the level of making a language yet, I'd like to work with existing ones a bit more to learn what I'd like to make, ya know? My goal honestly is implementing it in a bunch of fun or hard languages (assembly is a plan, definitely).
22:01:40 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: If you implement it in Malebolge (Unshackled?), we will all worship you as our Messiah.
22:02:12 <B1ood6od> Never heard of it (I'm still new to esoteric stuff, first time I used one was two days ago when I made it in LOLCODE)
22:02:13 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: The interesting thing about esolangs is you need not have advanced knowledge of language design to make one; just knowing the basics is enough.
22:02:34 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: It's one of the big 5. Just check the wiki.
22:03:09 <hppavilion[1]> (Named after Malebolge, a circle of hell in Dante's Inferno)
22:03:20 <hppavilion[1]> (Or part of one of the circles; I think it's the one where frauds go)
22:03:35 <B1ood6od> OH, yeah I remember skimming that one.
22:04:05 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: I had an idea that might be of interest to you if you like encryption
22:04:33 <B1ood6od> I'm definitely interested in it, as I plan to join the navy in about a year to go into cryptology.
22:05:06 <hppavilion[1]> I call it "Executable Encryption" (not to be confused with encrypting an executable file)
22:05:18 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, you encode plaintext by converting it into a program written in an Esolang.
22:05:53 <hppavilion[1]> The only way to access the plaintext is by executing the cyphertext. It has a series of conditions that must be satisfied, such as entering the correct password, that are literally built-in to the program
22:06:31 <hppavilion[1]> The language itself is nigh-impossible to comprehend; it's a fungeoid that works in upwards of 50 different dimensions.
22:07:05 <hppavilion[1]> So you can't only not read the cyphertext; you can't even see it for what it really is.
22:07:47 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: Only problem is it's so complicated that if there are any ways to bypass it, it'd be hard to tell unless you were a genius, which you have to assume the person trying to break your encryption is under the Laws of Cryptography
22:08:45 <hppavilion[1]> It's more of an idea than a usable thing; but it's cool
22:09:46 <B1ood6od> That's, complicated. Lol. But see pretty epic. A fungeoid is a program with pointers, right? I've yet to grasp the meaning of "dimension" with them though.
22:10:38 <hppavilion[1]> Another idea is to make a computer program generate a partially-random language by example, that is, it creates a bunch of files and tells the computer that it means the same thing as one in the language of the message trying to be sent
22:11:16 <hppavilion[1]> Then, it use a Google Translate-like software (which learns by comparing two documents with the same thing in different languages) to translate the message into the randomly-generated language.
22:11:58 <hppavilion[1]> Then you transmit the message and the key used to trigger the pseudo-random number generator that produced the original language. The other person uses google translate in reverse to detranslate
22:12:18 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: Did you read the page on Fungoids on the wiki?
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22:14:22 * APic thinks somebody has claimed to solve the „Turing-Test“ this way. But probably Alan would have disallowed People literally coming from oppsite Corners of one of the available Earths.
22:15:31 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, the way "dimension" works in it is that the language is an array of instructions instead of a list of instructions and some flow to repeat. The IP ("instruction pointer") is the same as in a normal language (points to the current list index), /except/ that it has a sense of "delta" that tells it which instruction to move along. The "dimension" comes from the fact that the IP has a location that is expressed as an ordered pair
22:16:30 <B1ood6od> I'm in another app reading up on them. Thanks for the description.
22:19:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45766&oldid=45650 * Hppavilion1 * (+624) Basic Operators
22:20:10 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: I highly recommend you develop a language though; it'll give you a better understanding of what you're doing. Also, I like new languages.
22:20:33 <hppavilion[1]> And it doesn't take advanced knowledge, just a basic understanding of CS and knowing at least one normal language
22:20:52 <B1ood6od> What all will be required? I'm sure it takes some planning.
22:21:24 <hppavilion[1]> For starters, do you want your language to be Imperative or Declarative? Or a weird mix?
22:22:36 <hppavilion[1]> (Usually. If you happen to know of a powerful-and-simple-but-as-of-yet-unused computational model, then Declarative can be easy)
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22:25:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45767&oldid=45175 * Derobos * (+779) /* C */
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22:26:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45768&oldid=45767 * Derobos * (-12) /* C */
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22:28:54 <APic> During the Times it had not been crazy it was probably still called the ArpaNet.
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22:55:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Control Flow]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45769 * Hppavilion1 * (+5762) Created Page
23:01:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Control Flow]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45770&oldid=45769 * Hppavilion1 * (+471) /* Esoteric Things */ DLUF and For..else/While..else
23:01:52 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: Can you think of any Esoteric Control Flow, out of curiousity? That'd be a GREAT thing to put in a language
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23:07:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Control Flow]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45771&oldid=45770 * Hppavilion1 * (+637) /* Higher-level Things */ Procedures, subroutines, coroutines, case construct
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23:13:18 <hppavilion[1]> It's stacky and designed to be usable. Its current purpose is an embedded language used for connecting APIs to each other, e.g. SAPIing Skype (making you computer read skype messages out loud)
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23:18:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45772&oldid=45759 * Luis Mendo * (-1192) /* Specification */
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23:53:21 <Taneb> Things I am irrationally scared of: the Bronze Age collapse
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23:53:43 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Is that where someone fucks something up and we all revert to the bronze age?
23:54:16 <hppavilion[1]> Or is that where you collapse after a heart attack in your Bronze Years (similar to your Golden Years)
23:54:30 <Taneb> Still the second one
23:54:56 <Taneb> Basically, society in the near east and eastern meditteranean suddenly collapsed and no-one knows why
23:55:55 <Taneb> It's terrifying that something like that can happen
23:56:25 <hppavilion[1]> My entire evil plan revolves around that being a possibility
00:02:39 <Taneb> Doesn't mean it's not terrifying
00:04:22 <B1ood6od> hppavilion[1]: do you have any reading material on creating an esoteric language?
00:04:57 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: Not really, we're kind of an obscure community
00:05:31 <hppavilion[1]> Creating something brand new is difficult, but creating a new spin on existing (eso-)paradigms is easy
00:05:46 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: No you might not. Well, you might, but it'd be the last thing you'd say.
00:06:33 <nchambers> I should write an interactive compiler course
00:06:44 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: Yes. You should. I'd like to write one.
00:07:17 <B1ood6od> Well. I mean. I have the option to teach tech stuff at my local library. If I get more into esoteric languages to the point of comprehending, I could very well offer some educational stuff on it.
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00:09:53 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: You could do that, but esolangs aren't very useful to those who want to learn about tech
00:10:12 <hppavilion[1]> You could perhaps offer a separate ~class on "Programming Languages as Art"
00:10:32 <hppavilion[1]> But you'd have to be a fairly advanced Esolanger to start evangelizing, far beyond just normal understanding.
00:11:02 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: Oh, you meant a compiler course that's interactive xD
00:11:06 <B1ood6od> hppavilion[1]: sorry, by tech I meant anything dealing with computers whatsoever. Also, not quite classes but rather educational day things aimed towards teens.
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00:11:28 <hppavilion[1]> The thing is, surrealist programmers are a pretty small niche.
00:11:49 <hppavilion[1]> There are only about 20-30 of us in an active community, you'll notice.
00:12:02 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: A course on compiler writing or a course on compiler using?
00:12:25 <nchambers> an interactive compiler using course is called your shell :p
00:12:38 <hppavilion[1]> I advise you drop everything and immediately start working on it 24/7 until it's done.
00:13:52 <nchambers> yeah. if I can actually learn some webdev
00:16:39 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: I could help with the website. What kind of languages will it show compiling?
00:16:49 <hppavilion[1]> Will it feature information on Language Design itself?
00:17:05 <nchambers> hppavilion[1]: of course :D... I was thinking of doing a scheme
00:18:04 <nchambers> of course, I am learning J... it could be fun to do it in that
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00:18:40 <nchambers> it can certainly be used as a golfing language
00:18:50 <nchambers> its used in buisnesses for tools though
00:19:07 <nchambers> theres a guy in #jsoftware who writes J full time
00:19:09 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: Are you targetting a real-world platform, or are you making your own VM or something?
00:20:06 <nchambers> errmm probably at first like C or something easy to target
00:20:29 <nchambers> then I'll do something on writing a virtual machine and switch the target to that
00:20:30 <hppavilion[1]> That works. OR you could make your own high-level assembler.
00:21:30 <nchambers> here you go! target this non existant bytecode! trust me... it works!
00:22:01 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: I have formulated ~25 different stack (or, well, deque) manipulation instructions.
00:23:26 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: Here's the list (for a language I'm making called Wybe, designed as an embedded language and usable stacky language): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vUGYJP_QO1jm7S7TcQffplZlV0NBQeJsRnGeevbMuMM/edit?usp=sharing
00:32:03 <\oren\> bah google docs chat is a poor imitation of irc
00:32:15 <\oren\> it doesn't even have fungot
00:32:15 <fungot> \oren\: of what?! no man, cage is sweet. so sweet. so sweet. so sweet.
00:32:43 <APic> ,o0(I like fsbot in #Emacs)
00:32:49 <APic> Sorry, could not resist.
00:37:24 <\oren\> some of them are not o's but о's
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00:38:22 <\oren\> i didn't include any ο's however
00:40:27 <APic> Still nice ones
00:41:10 <B1ood6od> So, per-person question. When working in a fungeoidal language, should the resulting code just... Work? Or should it look good as well? As in, have a shape or something.
00:41:45 <\oren\> I find it hard enough to write a working program
00:43:07 <B1ood6od> I just feel like my ASCII > Rubik's notation program isn't as pretty as it could be. I'm also the guy who got addicted to TIS-100 and writes in smali when I'm bored.
00:43:25 <boily> ヘロレン！えっと…ちょっと怖いんだよ
00:44:01 <APic> UTF8 does, too
00:45:00 <boily> Bellood6od! prettiness is tantamount to achieve great fungeoïd programming hth
00:47:33 <B1ood6od> I think I definitely want to work more with befunge, or similar languages. It's fun.
00:52:45 <boily> you can even hunt wumpuses in it!
00:52:58 <boily> (wumpus? wumpii? wumpæ??
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00:55:26 <hppavilion[1]> It must've been a joke that I was too thick to see xD
00:55:28 <boily> long history, of which I'm missing many details.
00:55:37 <boily> fungot: laconic rot?
00:55:37 <fungot> boily: be in cahoots with! you guess none the wiser, you board the shuttle. next stop, it's unbecoming electricity, although he gives a small man. but there is a factory there you do.
00:55:49 <boily> hppavellon[1]. a mapole does all.
00:56:18 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Laconic Rot means the symbolic rot instruction (laconic POP is $)
00:56:30 <hppavilion[1]> Rot rotates the top 3 elements, and there are about 12 different variants on it
00:57:47 <boily> coppro: chelloppro. do you like shrimps?
00:59:12 <hppavilion[1]> OK, ROT is ], ROTCC is [. Back versions are prefixed with ~, and far versions have a _ on the pronged side of the bracket.
01:12:36 <\oren\> szszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszsz
01:14:03 <\oren\> I like how zszszszszszsz looks like a pattern in my font
01:16:42 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: The new s or the old s? Because it looks fukin awesome with the old s
01:16:56 <\oren\> the new s and the nes z
01:18:23 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/bbs
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01:29:21 <hppavilion[1]> I've decided on :-> for Registering Event Handlers
01:29:47 <hppavilion[1]> Though it could easily be confused with something like @-> (WHILE) when it's really more similar to DEF.
01:33:09 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: How good is your Haskell, or more specifically, GHCi?
01:33:42 <hppavilion[1]> I was wondering if there's a way to search the currently-available libraries for things with a certain type
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01:38:43 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: you can use hoogle
01:39:15 <hppavilion[1]> I don't think I need it right now, but I'll attempt and most likely fail to remember that!
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01:51:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7h 26m 12s ago: <tswett> The ordinal numbers are keeping me awake. <-- try attaching them to sheep hth
01:51:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7h 19m 58s ago: i'm not convinced your Z(a,b) defines an ordinal number for a > 0. it seems to me that Z(0,b) = b for any infinite ordinal b, so there _are_ no larger ordinals for a > 0 to choose from.
01:51:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7h 15m 4s ago: hm wait, Z(0,b) = b+1.
01:51:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 59m 38s ago: oh hm i see, when you fixed it to "not equal to" it makes more sense. because Z(0,...) leaves out all the limit ordinals, so Z(1,...) gets some of those.
01:51:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 58m ago: except i fail to see how there's anything left for Z(2,...).
01:51:50 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 55m 9s ago: i really should learn not to @tell until i've read through the whole log discussion...
01:57:26 <boily> @ask oerjan @tell me more @tell me more ♪
01:58:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hurricane996 * New user account
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02:08:49 <boily> who's i'll? and is it a valid IRC nick?
02:10:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Fob]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45774 * SuperJedi224 * (+152) Created page with "What python version should the interpretrer be run in? ~~~~"
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02:24:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Fob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45777&oldid=45774 * SuperJedi224 * (+63)
02:25:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45778&oldid=45302 * SuperJedi224 * (+94)
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02:31:28 <^v> hppavilion[1], i think ^v^v is me?
02:31:50 <^v> usually my nick is just ^v, v^ and ^^v
02:35:05 <^v> but wait, wouldnt brainfuck be stack based anyway?
02:35:11 <^v> just a vertical tape
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03:21:19 <tswett> That is not a valid nick.
03:21:36 <lambdabot> KGRR 040253Z 24013G28KT 200V280 9SM OVC016 03/00 A3033 RMK AO2 PK WND 30028/0246 SLP277 T00330000 53006
03:21:57 <tswett> I barely know what any of that means.
03:22:27 <tswett> Yeah, that's pretty much it.
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03:35:20 <hppavilion[1]> What kinds of higher-order functions are there? (Efficiency ones and ones that work on infinite lists are redundant)
03:42:19 <tswett> Lots and lots and lots.
03:42:50 <tswett> Many people believe that the most important concept in mathematics is the function.
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04:02:54 <augur> hppavilion[1]: higher order functions are everywhere!
04:04:03 <augur> sortWith is a good one
04:05:16 <augur> and of course bind (>>=)
04:05:31 <augur> you could maybe consider things like (<*>) to be higher order
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04:11:33 <\oren\> a for loop is a higher order function
04:12:03 <\oren\> (with unorthodox syntax)
04:12:47 <augur> possible. depends on how you want to view it :)
04:12:53 <hppavilion[1]> augur: Keep in mind, I don't actually know that much Haskell.
04:13:07 <hppavilion[1]> I just tried to hit tab to autocomplete the word "haskell" xD
04:13:16 <augur> hppavilion[1]: both are related to function application, but with fancier functions
04:13:20 <hppavilion[1]> My brain cannot tell the difference between Programming languages and People
04:15:43 <hppavilion[1]> augur: I'm just asking what I need to implement for Functional Programming (the style, not the paradigm) in a language I'm making.
04:16:46 <augur> the best way is to not think of functions as something special
04:18:21 <^v> im bored, is it a good idea to learn haskell
04:18:23 <hppavilion[1]> I never have. I'm just asking what higher-order functions I should include.
04:18:25 <augur> well then, you dont need to worry about what sorts of functions to implement :)
04:18:36 <augur> hppavilion[1]: dont include any
04:18:38 <^v> ive basically mastered C,C++, and lua
04:19:05 <hppavilion[1]> augur: They need not be builtin, but they'll probably be in the standard library
04:19:30 <^v> im thinking of learning arm/thumb (since i might want to do be a firmware developer)
04:19:52 <^v> hppavilion[1], haha ive put more time into esolangs than i would like
04:20:02 <^v> atleast 100 hours of brainfuck
04:20:15 <^v> and all my friends look at me like im fucking insane
04:20:31 <augur> hppavilion[1]: there's no such thing as ASM :)
04:20:44 <augur> but ^v could definitely learn MIPS assembly!
04:21:05 <^v> augur, i have an interest in arm/thumb specifically because vex robots run on it
04:21:16 <augur> ^v: arm would probably be good for getting jobs
04:21:42 <^v> i am on a vex roboitcs team
04:21:59 <^v> vex is like first robotics little brother
04:23:14 <^v> augur, cant decide between low level and high level for jobs
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04:23:36 <^v> im 16 and homeschooled so its hard to intern xD
04:28:37 <^v> because when applying you usually have to make the choice
04:30:03 <^v> low level C/asm firmware for various devices or high level for usually computer/phone applications
04:30:29 <augur> sure, when applying someone. but when STUDYING you can do whatever you want!
04:30:45 <^v> fair enough
04:31:01 <augur> the more you study, the more you can apply to
04:33:02 <^v> from what ive seen, interns are basically useless
04:33:46 <^v> i have a friend that did better than most of his co-workers when he interned, he got an offer to drop out and join for 60k/yr
04:33:59 <^v> and a 3k bonus at the end
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04:55:15 <^v> i dont know who ^v^v is
04:55:31 <^v^v> oh nevermind my desktop reconnected
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05:46:07 * Sgeo once mirrored a site that was on Geocities and contacted the person. Turns out they had already migrated off of it
05:46:20 <Sgeo> Um. I may have been significantly scrolled up
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06:53:39 <^v^v> Sgeo, geocities
06:53:45 <^v^v> that is a name i have not heared in a long time..
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07:01:31 <hppavilion[1]> ^v: Is a vex robot at all related to the similarly-named type of robot?
07:02:31 <hppavilion[1]> Namely, the ex-robot: Robots that have had their brains uploaded to a computer and are now disembodied.
07:04:36 <^v> no i mean real moving robots xD
07:04:45 <HackEgo> U+FFFF - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ef bf bf UTF-16BE: ffff Decimal:  \ () \ Uppercase: U+FFFF \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
07:05:24 <^v> heres a pic of the last one i built http://i.imgur.com/ImJR7a4.jpg
07:06:40 <^v> http://i.imgur.com/Vmz2SgG.jpg
07:06:44 <^v> it lifts up
07:06:57 <^v> and a wall of awards in the background xD
07:07:46 <^v> sorry to dissapoint, i dont build sex robots
07:08:04 <^v> it has a claw so i guess it could hold a fleshlight or something xD
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08:03:22 <^v> std::map<std::map<std:map<unsigned char*,unsigned char*>,unsigned char*>,unsigned char*>
08:04:00 <^v> fuck your convetions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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08:12:29 <hppavilion[1]> Now I want to make a Captain Forever: Remix-like games
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08:23:28 <^v> hppavilion[1], im actually developing a captain forever like sandbox game
08:23:55 <hppavilion[1]> Not sure what the original Captain Forever was like
08:23:55 <^v> and yes, it has computers
08:24:17 <^v> custom assembly
08:24:31 <^v> we were thinking of using arm instead
08:24:41 <^v> but qemu is pretty bulky
08:24:46 <^v> hppavilion[1], C++/Lua
08:25:15 <^v> will probably turn into a company at some point
08:25:27 <^v> we are verry skilled
08:26:08 <^v> physics, destruction, etc
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08:26:40 <^v> i like developing on the GPU
08:27:30 <^v> a lot of things you do seem counter intuitive when creating highly parallel code but actually are more efficient
08:28:04 <^v> we are so used to programming on the CPU where memory access between threads is relatively cheap
08:30:34 <hppavilion[1]> ^v: I don't even do C, so I don't know what you're talking about with memory access between threads
08:30:44 <hppavilion[1]> Though I assume it has something to do with accessing memory. Between threads.
08:31:00 <^v> has more to do with CPU architecture
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08:52:19 <hppavilion[1]> Procedurally Generated spaceships will be fun for my little CF
09:19:23 <b_jonas> oh! age old bug I reported is now fixed! yay!
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09:52:51 <mroman> b_jonas: Turns out GOT Hijacking is a thing.
09:52:54 <mroman> although a rarer thing.
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10:03:39 <mroman> I don't really get how PLT/GOT works though
10:03:53 <mroman> 0x8048320 <puts@plt>:jmp DWORD PTR ds:0x8049688
10:03:59 <mroman> is that a memory indirect jump thing?
10:04:23 <mroman> i.e. jmp to whatever is at address 0x8049688 but don't jump to actual address 0x8049688
10:05:46 <mroman> actually with at&t its jmp *0x8049688
10:05:52 <mroman> but I can't find anything about what that star means
10:06:49 <FireFly> I saw a nice post explaining PLT/GOT a while ago, let me see if I can find it..
10:07:28 <mroman> I think the GOT is updated once you called the function for the first time
10:07:40 <mroman> because that's in fact a memory indirect jmup
10:07:51 <mroman> so the target address is behind 0x8049688
10:08:00 <mroman> but that just contains a reference back to the PLT for now
10:08:10 <FireFly> https://www.technovelty.org/linux/plt-and-got-the-key-to-code-sharing-and-dynamic-libraries.html this one
10:08:10 <mroman> which probably calls the runtime resolver
10:09:52 <FireFly> Right, there's a trampoline immediately followed by the code that patches the table or something like that
10:10:05 <mroman> yeah the address is updated after the first call
10:10:22 <FireFly> after the function has been called once, you can look up the concrete address of the library function
10:10:40 <mroman> GOT hijacking overwrites entries in the GOT so for example if you can gain control over a pointer where some data is written to
10:10:45 <mroman> you can redirect printf to system
10:11:02 <mroman> FireFly: yes, after it has been called once the actual address will be written to the GOT
10:11:51 <mroman> Let me just blog about that in my blog so I don't forget about it later :D
10:11:53 <FireFly> I used the address from the GOT as a base address to locate execve for a CTF task
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10:35:12 <mroman> Although with ASLR and PIE I think pretty much all of the stuff doesn't work anymore
10:35:17 <mroman> ASLR alone can be circumvented
10:35:24 <mroman> but I haven't heard anything about dealing with PIE
10:39:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mego * New user account
10:40:10 <mroman> 0x80000703 <+23>:call 0xb7eaac20 <printf>
10:40:15 <mroman> with PIE it doesn't use the PLT
10:43:21 <mroman> at what point is this resolved?
10:44:00 <mroman> this means loadtime stuff is going on
10:44:08 <mroman> the code is patched at load time with the actual addresses?
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11:09:12 <quintopia> can the wiki load a wikitable from an external source?
11:22:53 <mroman> unless you mean something like a File uploaded to the wiki?
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12:06:58 <lambdabot> quintopia said 9h 29m 6s ago: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-0NVE9E8UJiT0loSFZkdmktRFU/view?usp=docslist_api
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14:33:40 <oerjan> this new disk drive has a ridiculously annoying parking sound ;_;
14:33:58 <lambdabot> boily asked 12h 36m 31s ago: @tell me more @tell me more ♪
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14:49:59 <Taneb> In 6 hours I'm going to be in London
14:51:52 <Taneb> No, but it'll be the first time on my own
14:52:09 <Taneb> First time I've travelled further south than Leeds without a grown-up
14:55:31 <Taneb> fizzie, you're in London, right? Do you know anywhere nice and not too expensive I can get breakfast near King's Cross or Imperial College/
15:02:41 <fizzie> I'm in London, but I don't really know London, and my "hoods" are mostly around Victoria and southwest from there.
15:02:51 <oerjan> it's not a clicking sum, but a humming one, as if actually hearing the disk winding down...
15:03:15 <fizzie> Well, I guess Imperial College is hereabouts, actually. At least somewhat.
15:03:26 <fizzie> On the third hand, I just eat the free food here at work.
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15:26:27 <fizzie> I don't know what the word means, really. I just meant "places I'm customarily near to".
15:27:17 <fizzie> I think of them as modes in a probabilistic model of my location.
15:31:42 <fizzie> Taneb: There's a cat cafe we're going to have breakfast at in London, but we haven't been there yet, so I don't know if it's nice -- plus it's fully booked for pretty long time in advance, and probably a bit on the expensive side (extra entrace fee to cover the cats, for example), so this is probably not a useful tip for you.
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15:33:16 <fizzie> (I've just been feeling a bit deficient in the cat department, and some other people have said it was a nice place.)
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15:35:16 <Taneb> Yeah, I'd rather avoid booking a long time in advance for breakfast tomorrow
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18:07:47 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a difference between `reduce` in Python and the `fold`s in Haskell?
18:11:35 <hppavilion[1]> copumpkin: According to F#, fold takes an initial value whereas reduce just starts with the 0th element in hte list.
18:11:58 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> a -> a) -> t a -> a
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19:18:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bubblegum]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45779&oldid=45204 * Quintopia * (+274) explanation of reasoning behind the exceptional behavior of this example program
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19:39:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45780&oldid=45675 * 73.234.127.46 * (+104360)
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19:54:40 <izabera_> https://github.com/makeamericagreatagain the author is donald trump from 1970
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21:47:22 <Newyorkadam> Hi, I’m trying to print out a 178-character string in brainfuck. this wouldn’t be a problem except I’m limited to using 270 characters of brainfuck. I was considering compressing the 178 char string; do you guys have any other ideas?
21:50:07 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: just a character limit for the service I’m using
21:50:10 <hppavilion[1]> Is it for a school assignment? Because that'd be SO FUCKING COOL
21:50:18 <Newyorkadam> but it is related, it’s for a senior quote
21:50:40 <int-e> that may be asking too much (cheating aside; some brainfuck implementations actually allow accessing the code as data...)
21:51:14 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: Brainfuck gets repetitive, so you could use _n syntax
21:55:40 <fizzie> You could give the bf_textgen program a go, although 178 to 270 might be too much to ask, depending on the string.
21:56:20 <fizzie> Well, I mean, the syntax is not part of brainfuck.
21:57:02 <fizzie> If the 270 character result needs to be a program a brainfuck interpreter can read, putting numbers in doesn't really help, since they get ignored.
21:57:09 <fizzie> If it's meant for humans, sure.
21:57:53 <fizzie> (I don't know what a "senior quote" is -- it sounds a bit more human-oriented.)
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21:59:51 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: It's a quote that you put in the yearbook in your last year of high school, I believe
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22:01:13 <Newyorkadam> fizzie: it goes in a yearbook under your name. people put inspirational, funny quotes
22:01:43 <Taneb> Well, I seem to be in London
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22:03:23 <fizzie> I'm sure it can be done in less. bf_textgen spit out 105 characters for me.
22:04:16 <Newyorkadam> fizzie: https://copy.sh/brainfuck/text.html?
22:05:10 <fizzie> It's a Java thing, it's floating around the webs somewhere.
22:05:23 <fizzie> https://github.com/graue/esofiles/blob/master/brainfuck/util/textgen.java
22:05:39 <fizzie> (The 105 was without the newline.)
22:05:48 <hppavilion[1]> -[------->+<]>.-[->++++<]>.[->++<]>+.++++++++++++.-----[->++++<]>.>-[--->+<]>-.------------.---.-[-->+<]>--.---[->+++<]>.+[---->+++<]>-.+++++++++++.++++++.+++.--.+[--->+<]>++++.+++[->++<]>.-.----.>-[--->+<]>---.--[----->++<]>.++++++[->++<]>+.++++++++++++.+[--->+<]>++.---[->+++<]>.-----.--[->++++<]>+.++++++++.+++++++++++.------------.
22:05:54 <^v> hppavilion[1], +9 is called run-length encoding
22:06:16 <^v> run-length encoding is a lazy way to do brainfuck
22:07:13 <^v> but sometimes you dont have 2 spaces to clobber
22:07:22 <fizzie> Newyorkadam: It's non-deterministic, you can get lucky.
22:07:35 <^v> so -[------->+<]> like encodings arent an option in those cases
22:07:52 <fizzie> I don't think it will get you down to 270 for a 178-character string, though -- given the fixed structure of the output, it has an absolute lower bound of N+k for N-character output, where k is a smallish constant.
22:08:08 <fizzie> (The .s are outside a loop, so it will always contain at least N .s)
22:08:19 <Newyorkadam> the best I’m getting with my string right now is 9925 :S
22:09:29 <fizzie> Sounds a bit far-fetched still, but you can always try.
22:09:54 <Newyorkadam> fizzie: got a recommendation for any compressor?
22:10:50 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: textgen.java uses a genetic-programming-inspired algorithm, so yes.
22:11:11 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Well, I mean, "non-deterministic" in the usual sense of using a PRNG seeded with something.
22:11:14 <^v> Newyorkadam, a 160% size ratio when encoding brainfuck is pretty much impossible
22:11:45 <^v> so reducing the size of the text is your only viable option
22:11:54 <Newyorkadam> was just wondering the best way to do that
22:12:35 <^v> hppavilion[1], hex RLE would give you a ratio of 300%
22:12:52 <^v> Newyorkadam, depends on the text obviously
22:13:07 <Newyorkadam> here’s the string: "\"Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject, so you know you are getting the best possible information.\" — Michael Scott"
22:13:30 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: Could you pastebin the quote then encode the URL in BF?
22:13:57 <Newyorkadam> was thinking that, but if I’m looking at my yearbook in 50 years I don’t think the link will still be up
22:14:29 <fizzie> At the very least, drop the UTF-8 — from it.
22:15:21 <^v> i hate how macs replace " with “ and - with —
22:15:23 <Newyorkadam> wow! dropping the — to a - got me from 9925 to 1515 lol
22:15:57 <^v> Newyorkadam, ofc, because every character was forced to be utf8
22:16:20 <fizzie> The sort of output generated by a compressor isn't generally very easy to produce from a brainfuck program. You might have better luck trying to generate the string with brainfuck, and then come up with the most compact way of encoding the brainfuck code. If you don't mind it being not so readable, just feed the *brainfuck* through some suitable general-purpose compression algorithm, then ...
22:16:26 <fizzie> ... base64 that for survival.
22:17:01 <fizzie> I got 1225 out of textgen.java with "-t 6" -- that's the number of "terms", for long quotations having more than the default (4) can be beneficial.
22:17:55 <fizzie> Not going to be very helpful, I think. There's diminishing returns, plus extra constant cost for terms.
22:18:30 <^v> does textgen have multiple layered loops?
22:18:55 <fizzie> ^v: No, it has a pretty simple structure, very definitely non-optimal.
22:19:10 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: Put it in a .tar.gz and host it on your own server. Then, bit.ly the sucker.
22:19:32 <^v> i was thinking if you wanted to implement something like that it would be beneficial to use the GPU
22:19:35 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: I don’t think my server will be up permanatly though
22:19:59 <fizzie> It's 400 characters for a simple textgen -t 6 + bzip2 -c -9 + base64. Might be better to add something brainfuck-specific to the mix.
22:20:45 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: You could encode it in BitSwitcher (or whatever it's called) and encode it as pairs of 2 bits. Though I think that language has more commands in it.
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22:23:01 <hppavilion[1]> Though you won't be able to use the quotes or the dash. It only supports lowercase letters, space, comma, and period, I believe.
22:23:25 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: Hash it. No one will be able to read it, but it would still be cool.
22:23:49 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: wouldn’t compressing it have the same effect(
22:24:06 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: No, hashes go much farther than compression.
22:24:30 <Newyorkadam> I actually got it down to like 40 characters with smaz (a compression tool) but ran into some weird issues
22:24:55 <Newyorkadam> I could also bank on a really bad hashing algorithm being easily cracked in a few years lol
22:25:36 <^v> its too large for that to work
22:25:47 <Newyorkadam> I found some that have been cracked but that only a few strings have been cracked
22:26:08 <^v> you could CRC32 segments
22:26:18 <hppavilion[1]> ^v: Is "Cut the last character off the end of the string" technically a hashing algorithm? You can't reverse it to get the plaintext, and it produces consistent results for equal strings...
22:26:46 <^v> best crypto
22:27:04 <Newyorkadam> we’re on the quest to find the least secure hashing algorithm! lol
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22:29:13 <hppavilion[1]> Extend Scrabble such that it supports at /least/ all of ascii.
22:29:48 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: I don't think you can do that as there are only a hundred tiles.
22:30:30 <hppavilion[1]> With infinitely many tiles and squares (and a different ending condition)
22:30:40 <^v> hppavilion[1], no clue
22:30:42 <Taneb> Couldn't you just reencode into base 27 first?
22:31:17 <hppavilion[1]> And it turns out that that channel is just mall cops and school police?
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22:36:23 <fizzie> For the record, the same output that was 400 bytes (textgen | bzip2 | base64) is 492 if I make it textgen | bfpack | bzip2 | base64, where "bfpack" denotes the trivial "convert brainfuck commands to 3-bit sequences and pack densely" transformation. Which isn't exactly surprising -- that's going to be really pessimal for the general-purpose compression. Really, the compression algo should ...
22:36:29 <fizzie> ... inherently be designed for a input that's a sequence of 3-bit symbols.
22:37:21 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: so what do you think I should do :P bank on a certain algorithm being cracked?
22:37:37 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: do you recommend a certain one
22:37:38 <fizzie> (But that's a bit much for a shell oneliner.)
22:38:23 <^v> or use a checksum designed for error correction
22:38:29 <^v> so like crc1024
22:38:42 <hppavilion[1]> Strip all non-alphabetic characteres, calculate the resulting word's scrabble score.
22:39:40 <Newyorkadam> I was reading this, do you guys think any of it could help me: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1138345/best-compression-algorithm-for-short-text-strings
22:40:55 <fizzie> A "cracked" hashing algorithm doesn't sound all that helpful, because even if there's an easy way to find pre-images, you're generally not going to get the *quote* out of it, just something that hashes to the same thing.
22:41:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45781&oldid=45773 * Luis Mendo * (+827) /* Specification */
22:41:18 <^v> Newyorkadam, best you are going to get is 50%
22:41:22 <^v> which isnt enoug
22:41:34 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: True, true. Of course, you could keep testing until it makes a quote.
22:41:35 <^v> and will also make the brainfuck code larger
22:42:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45782&oldid=45781 * Luis Mendo * (+4) /* Compiler */
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22:44:17 <Newyorkadam> ^v: using smaz I got it to like 45 characters
22:44:22 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: I'm looking for a language concept that allows me to assign instructions to a ton of unicode characters. Have any ideas?
22:44:37 <fizzie> And anything smaz-like (as in, based on a predefined dictionary of "typical" text; you could do a "bfsmaz"-style thing that'd be very good in packing brainfuck code) arguably suffers from the problem that it's not feasible to decode without expecting the exact dictionary to be still available in the far future.
22:44:48 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: what do you mean instructions?
22:45:12 <hppavilion[1]> You're new and I was just wondering if you can think of anything.
22:45:13 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: isn’t that essentially brainfuck?
22:45:16 <fizzie> In which case you could as well just compress it to the string "that Michael Scott quote about Wikipedia".
22:45:29 <Newyorkadam> like “+” increases the cell; that’s an instructions
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22:45:53 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: Yes, that's an instruction. I'm looking for a language concept that can have a LOT of instructions.
22:45:56 <Newyorkadam> I could invent “Newyorkadam’s smaz” which would translate “a” to “this is my senior quote”
22:46:26 <hppavilion[1]> Or if you post it, the server will go down someday
22:46:46 <hppavilion[1]> You know about brainfuck. You're an amazing programmer
22:46:55 <hppavilion[1]> Also, you knew what I meant when I brought up hashes.
22:47:03 <Newyorkadam> I actually wrote a brainfuck RPG game during a hackathon a few weeks ago
22:47:18 <Newyorkadam> I could only found one other person who did it and they wrote it in C and just used a program to make it brainfuck
22:47:43 <fizzie> It's not like this smaz thing in the first place is very well-known. It's just some random dude's github with an English/web-text-oriented ad-hoc codebook.
22:47:46 <Newyorkadam> I have it saved.. I can toss it over if you want
22:47:48 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: You wrote an RPG. In brainfuck. What.
22:48:14 <^v> hppavilion[1], i wrote an IRC bot
22:48:20 <^v> in brainfuck xD
22:48:21 <Newyorkadam> I also think I developed a new, extremely inefficient way of doing an if/else
22:48:42 <^v> Newyorkadam, :o
22:48:50 <^v> been looking for a good way to do ifelse
22:49:26 <^v> it joins a channel and responds to pings
22:49:27 <Newyorkadam> let me know what you think of this if/else: http://pastebin.com/WRsWJTc4
22:49:35 <Newyorkadam> It’s gonna need some explaining though lol
22:49:41 <Newyorkadam> let me know if you don’t get it (you probably won't)
22:50:12 <^v> Newyorkadam, lmao thats how i do it
22:50:19 <Newyorkadam> alright open up this link it will help me explain: https://fatiherikli.github.io/brainfuck-visualizer/#
22:50:40 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: run this “,>++++++++++[<---->-]<-------->>+<<“
22:51:22 <Newyorkadam> so what that line does (third line in the paste) is you input a 1 or a 0
22:51:32 <Newyorkadam> if you put in a 0, the first cell will equal 0
22:51:37 <Newyorkadam> if you put in a 1, the first cell will equal 1
22:51:48 <Newyorkadam> it then increases the third cell to 1 no matter what
22:52:03 <Newyorkadam> so the loop in brainfuck will only run if the currently cell is greater than 0
22:52:21 <Newyorkadam> if it IS greater than 1 (i.e. user inputted ‘1’), it runs that loop
22:52:21 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: I would advise you add a >>-<< to kill that third cell, just for neatness purposes
22:52:31 <hppavilion[1]> Or wait, it eliminates the third cell's existing value
22:52:41 <fizzie> If you *really* want to spend time tinkering with this, you could *try* making an Huffman/LZ77-style thing that takes 3-bit sequences as input. Although expecting anyone to be able to unpack it without any hints is asking quite a lot.
22:52:58 <^v> i was creating a really convoluted system where there are 2 spaces between every cell you use
22:53:09 <fizzie> I did get the bzip2-base64 down to 376 with a bit of tweaking, but that's still quite far off from your limit of 270.
22:53:15 <^v> that way you can have pointers
22:53:20 <Newyorkadam> fizzie: I was looking into huffman but was still having some trouble
22:53:27 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: do you see how it works now?
22:53:55 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: Not really, but that's more a fault of my ability to pay attention that of your ability to explain
22:54:08 <Newyorkadam> essentially there’s a temporary value in the third cell
22:54:24 <Newyorkadam> if the user inputs 1, I run the IF code and delete that third cell value
22:54:35 <Newyorkadam> by the time you get after that IF, the brainfuck checks if there’s anything in the third cell
22:55:00 <Newyorkadam> if there is, that means that the first IF didn’t run, so it assumes it’s else and then runs the else. if the third cell doesn’t have a value, it assumes the IF ran and continues w/o running the else
22:56:41 <Newyorkadam> fizzie: 376 is still really impressive, thanks for helping me
22:58:45 <tswett> I don't remember if I have a name for that database query language of mine or not.
22:59:35 -!- BloodGod has joined.
22:59:53 <tswett> Should I name it after another El Goonish Shive character? Depends on how much I like their names...
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23:02:41 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: do you wanna play my rpg lol
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23:05:13 <fizzie> 348 with the trivial ASCII-based RLE in-between textgen and bzip2, and 316 with a very arbitrary shorthand notation that nobody could really be expected to come up with without hints; and neither of those are quite enough.
23:07:01 <fizzie> Sorry, the 316 number was a screw-up; the 348 should be legit, though.
23:07:12 <fizzie> Not that I've bothered to verify what I did was reversible.
23:08:39 <fizzie> QlpoOTFBWSZTWYCtfOcAAAoaAAALf+UACjABWQgRT8JpBJGFDTTAAJT0SSNJiE+H08VGuRKw70g6u2SPdgiqN45Kx1ojwcqXdRt2w1Mju7LjSQDZ8S8SBBpFApADnZtaW9m1VS79Nx8dazs77c1ezQruynSqJjQ5MxxBynmRjpk2STRwB3ilmMKtn5mak5lh8Jr18rV2aRHdOAGHUrGMH8Grx+Zhm2mLvfFd3BrF889eeOIKjzoT7CYKiJi6705GxmNTt3NmckizpZmuXOkHmbIWj1SSReHCUiR4zU1I3xMIOwX1YCYiC+TDD04B8cOOB+02gfzHAw78/4u5IpwoSEBWvnOA
23:08:54 <fizzie> That's the 348; like I said, the 316 was a screw-up.
23:09:23 <Newyorkadam> fizzie: Oh, I thought you meant 348 brainfuck characters
23:09:35 <fizzie> No, no; if that were the case, you'd be home free already.
23:10:31 <fizzie> Because you can trivially ancode 348 brainfuck characters into 174 printable ASCII symbols.
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23:18:19 <nchambers> someone wrote a lisp interpreter in brainfuck with tail recursion and here I am struggling to write a linked list
23:20:49 <fizzie> Newyorkadam: I'm tempted to suggest relying on the redundancies of English and compressing the quote itself by removing all vowels (and capitalization, because they're far away as far as ASCII goes). I've got an intelligible version down to 280, which is getting pretty close.
23:23:41 <fizzie> A non-standard encoding (that used more printable characters than base64) would likely already be <= 270, but it'd be a bit hard to figure out.
23:26:49 <fizzie> Oh, textgen hummed it down to 276.
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23:27:08 <fizzie> QlpoOTFBWSZTWaftZKUAAAgaAAALP+UACjABFsiIqf4mk0yiBDaTVAaASnpNUU8RqE15vtXEygcRLjKKEQcxJtVbV4CMEcWHDukaQlHtyBfr38fzxWGz63phed0mmAhE0egitL5ONwwLBPa47SOSee2Yo+pb1gTqQUu0eQKOUxOWYPdyg5rmRSh35nWcJ17yQcVXFNJTU3iW3csJRq8VpolqsFI653dSyMWRILyxNkRySY85mB2mHqC/qb568NMzCoftv+LuSKcKEhT9rJSg
23:49:07 <fizzie> Newyorkadam: Okay, I've got a 264-character output here (263, in fact, since the last character is just base64 padding that's quite safe to omit):
23:49:10 <fizzie> QlpoOTFBWSZTWZshv/UAAAaaAAALP+UACjAA9GBqn5GhGqaA1PaKgGQEmoKho9IVKLQnqRTAHDrVcBNSMAibLisOZiS/DAIITMgwZBhDmC4ObvH05WcfG4M3aKR8NoI+oLO5OfKWpne3GMbbZUypoXUEOKyA2O8iGQrNXDg03mdr3dRdBZ2cNPTEzVR7ZQo2ZuXKwzMaqZVumaZFKDLKbpbNRq+VkRxoVghxnkCHTBeMmIv3m3Ah+Z76/i7kinChITZDf+o=
23:49:37 <fizzie> Should probably check that it actually generates something reasonable, though.
23:49:48 <oerjan> ouch i hope this girl genius act doesn't end with the obvious tragedy...
23:53:12 <fizzie> Newyorkadam: http://sprunge.us/JCbI -- seems to work, depending on whether you think the output is a close enough approximation. You might get closer with the same techniques with a bit more patience.
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23:55:04 <fizzie> If you want to play around, http://sprunge.us/cfDW is what I was feeding the textgen.java outputs into for testing, although out of those four bzip2 was consistently the lowest-overhead one for this particular application.
00:00:16 <Newyorkadam> I posted a more thought-out question here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/34099489/printing-out-178-character-string-in-270-lines-of-brainfck
00:00:28 <Newyorkadam> fizzie: cool, thanks for all the help dude
00:05:18 <int-e> oerjan: hmm, seems unlikely
00:08:48 <oerjan> int-e: i hope so, but having one of gil or tarvek die tragically _would_ be a "traditional" way to resolve the love triangle...
00:09:20 <oerjan> (the untraditional way has already been lampshaded, of course, but whether the foglios actually dare to _use_ it...)
00:09:49 <int-e> oerjan: yeah, I suppose Tarvek could get out and live while Gil gets stuck in the time bubble
00:10:09 <int-e> that's the kind of twist the Foglios seem to love ;)
00:10:16 <oerjan> that doesn't work because the dreen said gil will go to paris.
00:10:52 <int-e> (though did they say when?)
00:12:01 <oerjan> also, gil showed up in the time windows, tarvek didn't.
00:12:43 <oerjan> so tarvek dying would be disturbingly consistent.
00:13:23 <int-e> hmm. but why now... why not in Paris?
00:13:32 <int-e> In Agatha's arms, perhaps :P
00:13:55 <int-e> Anyway... we'll see.
00:14:06 <oerjan> in any case, if he's not to die promptly _someone_ needs to get an antidote, stat
00:14:10 <int-e> And I wonder whether we'll get to see another Paris strip this year...
00:14:59 <oerjan> also, there might be some twist in _who's_ attacking. maybe they actually came to warn them...
00:15:02 <int-e> Or amputate the head quickly enough :P
00:15:11 <int-e> ("Hmm, tricky. But I've seen worse.")
00:15:53 <oerjan> that would rather hamper tarvek's bid for the storm king post... (he _has_ been dead already but it's not common knowledge.)
00:19:07 <oerjan> as has agatha, but the castle decides _that_ family's inheritance rules.
00:21:04 <oerjan> if they suspect something, they might keep him in a time envelope like they did with vole
00:21:24 <oerjan> until they find out how to cure it
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00:21:59 * oerjan wonders if he'll ever get used to this stupid hard disk's parking sound
00:22:27 <oerjan> what's wrong with a simple click (i used to find _those_ annoying too...)
00:25:28 <oerjan> none of the service documents say what brand of hard disk it is...
00:27:21 <oerjan> oh maybe it's actually in this menu
00:28:43 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
00:29:40 <izabera> a friend of mine submitted a paper to arxiv with a typo in its title
00:31:29 <izabera> http://arxiv.org/abs/1512.00766
00:36:37 <int-e> entering wrong metadata can't be that uncommon... I expect it can easily be fixed...
00:37:02 <izabera> you have to submit a new version
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01:04:45 <oerjan> http://www.hgst.com/products/hard-drives/travelstar-z5k500 "quiet operation"
01:05:27 <oerjan> the power management settings in windows say it'll only be turned off after 20 minutes. this happens far more often.
01:06:23 * oerjan hopes this will be fixed in the heap of windows updates that are waiting to be installed...
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01:43:03 <\oren\> try changing it to 30 minutes
01:43:41 <oerjan> i fail to see how that would help when it's parking several times a minute.
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01:44:16 <oerjan> i suppose it might be an idea to change it just to see if something gets set...
01:45:28 <oerjan> and there it wound down again.
01:45:44 <\oren\> are you sure that it's in minutes and not seconds?
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01:47:36 <oerjan> i suppose getting the units in the driver wrong is silly enough to be plausible... except i doubt it's the hard disk driver that counts those minutes...
01:48:16 <oerjan> well getting the units wrong in windows itself would be even sillier, i guess
01:51:11 <oerjan> (took a long time before the next disk pause, but then only 5-10 secs until winding down
01:52:06 <\oren\> are you sure the disk isn't defective
01:52:25 <oerjan> the disk is new. i suppose it could be...
01:52:37 <\oren\> also what happens if you try disabling disk parking
01:52:48 <oerjan> i don't know how to do that.
01:53:25 <oerjan> also parking shouldn't be the same as winding down like this :(
01:54:09 <zzo38> How do I change the setting for font smoothing in Firefox in Linux?
01:54:44 <zzo38> All of my other programs do not use antialiasing and cleartype and I want to disable it on Firefox too
01:57:51 <^v> zzo38, why would you want to disable antialiasing ._.
01:57:57 <oerjan> dammit the hdd driver is supposedly already up to date
01:59:22 <zzo38> I also want all programs to use bitmap fonts by default
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02:01:58 <\oren\> antialiasing is crap that's why
02:02:37 <\oren\> fonts should be designed to fit the screen without being blurry
02:04:42 <^v> if your fonts are blurry then you need more hinting xD
02:04:55 <\oren\> hinting doesn't do shit
02:05:00 <^v> it does for me
02:05:03 <^v> and everyone else
02:05:56 <zzo38> I found in /etc/fonts/conf.d and I deleted 70-no-bitmaps.conf and 10-antialias.conf from that directory; it doesn't seem to affect Firefox?
02:06:50 <\oren\> ^v: no, most people are just used to looking at blurry text
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02:10:13 <^v> \oren\, with hinting + AA http://i.imgur.com/zXM3ZVg.png, no hinting (really blurry) http://i.imgur.com/YNTsVYS.png, no AA http://i.imgur.com/EYvYhwa.png
02:10:25 <^v> hinting and AA make it much more readable TBH :/
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02:11:29 <^v> also im using subpixel smoothing, normal AA is blurry
02:11:59 <oerjan> <keiber> hola <-- darn no one remembered to `bienvenido?
02:12:28 <\oren\> ^v: like I said, you're using a badly designed font and then compensating by using antialiasing and subpixel rendering.
02:13:13 <oerjan> can you antialias a square peg to fit in a round hole?
02:13:16 <zzo38> Or you are trying to use a printer font on the screen improperly
02:13:51 <\oren\> If you use a font that is designed to fit exactly into the pixel grid, then antialiasing will make it look worse, not better
02:19:11 <zzo38> I am not using Microsoft; it is Mozilla
02:20:22 <\oren\> Huh? Have you turned off Cleartype?
02:21:48 <\oren\> ^v: for a good example of a font that fits into pixel grids exaclty, compare MS PMincho (pixel perfect) to Times New Roman (Requires AA)
02:22:19 <^v> but what about different text scales?
02:23:40 <^v> if a font is already pixel perfect, it would look the same with hinting?
02:24:10 <\oren\> Usually fonts like PMincho contain several sets of bitmaps for common smaller sizes, plus vector paths for large sizes
02:26:02 <\oren\> ^v: no, what they usually do is use a flag in the TTF or OTF format that tells the renderer specifically NOT to anti-alias the font at small sizes
02:26:32 <^v> so whats the issue with having AA and hinting?
02:26:32 <\oren\> without that flag, it will blur it
02:27:07 <\oren\> that it's the wrong solution to the problem
02:27:16 <^v> i dont see how
02:27:59 <^v> without it most of my fonts look like shit and are really choppy
02:28:24 <\oren\> because most of your fonts are not designed for a computer screen
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02:28:41 <^v> if the font designers had time to make their fonts look good at all scales without AA they would
02:29:00 <\oren\> Japanese font designers have time
02:29:21 <oerjan> ProofTechnique: i don't think we have a portuguese version yet?
02:29:27 <\oren\> They have time to do it for 1000's of kanji for that matter
02:30:49 <^v> doesnt make my fonts more readable
02:31:01 <^v> subpixel smoothing and hinting do
02:31:25 <^v> unless someone can redesign every single font
02:31:36 <^v> so they work better at smaller sizes
02:34:19 <\oren\> Well, all I'm saying is in Japan subpixel smoothing is not used at all in the most common fonts. Dunno about Korea or China but I would suspect the same.
02:35:52 <\oren\> Go to http://www.asahi.com/ for example. Do you see subpixel smoothing on that page? I sure don't.
02:36:58 <ProofTechnique> I don't think it would be possible to read that with subpixel smoothing
02:39:08 <^v> the banner with ノーベル賞
02:39:18 <^v> has subpixel smoothing
02:39:37 <^v> sorry for spam, sneaky newlines
02:41:08 <ProofTechnique> And it is quite difficult to read. Even worse in my client :(
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02:41:47 <\oren\> everything else is crisp though
02:42:08 <^v> 勝,戦,頂 would be impossible to read without AA, the lack of subpixel smoothing on the larger sized text makes it blurry
02:42:23 <^v> \oren\, looks blurry for me
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02:43:54 <^v> http://i.imgur.com/VJs0Qsg.png
02:44:40 <\oren\> http://oi63.tinypic.com/t6tgf8.jpg
02:45:16 <^v> i hate tinypic
02:46:27 <ProofTechnique> Speaking of fonts, does anyone have a good tool to convert a PCF into a TTF or something?
02:46:51 <^v> 6+ adverisements, popups everywhere, that link isnt an actual .jpg unless you give it a referer header
02:46:58 <\oren\> http://postimg.org/image/km8tpxpf9/
02:47:01 <^v> it has taken over 60s for the image to load
02:47:41 <^v> oh you have AA disabled
02:48:41 <^v> the font has AA but not subpixel
02:49:37 <\oren\> The font has flags set that way
02:50:32 <^v> so my system is ignoring them?
02:51:04 <coppro> what's the term for when you discover something and get stuck reading it for hours?
02:51:22 <\oren\> Yes, it's prbably ignoring the GASP table, or you don't have the MS PMincho font
02:51:41 <\oren\> http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/gasp.htm
02:52:16 <^v> what is https://esolangs.org/forum/
02:52:21 <^v> and why is it so bad
02:53:45 <oerjan> coppro: archive binge hth
02:54:23 <\oren\> looks like the forum has been dead since 2009
02:54:55 <^v> we should re make it xD
02:55:29 <oerjan> ^v: it's just an archive now, it got so much more spam than actual posts that we just closed it when elliott took over the wiki
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02:56:06 <\oren\> where is elliott anyway?
02:56:08 <oerjan> remaking it seems doomed since there's no reason it would be different now
02:56:34 <oerjan> elliott lost interest in the channel and left
02:56:46 <^v> oerjan, how so
02:57:08 <\oren\> I think captchas have been invented now
02:57:09 <oerjan> ^v: it's not the first esoforum to die, the mailing lists did so before
02:57:50 <\oren\> I suppose the forum now is the talk pages
02:57:51 <oerjan> there's /r/esolangs on reddit btw, it's almost but not quite dead
02:58:15 <\oren\> which have the advantage that hackego announces each change here
02:58:16 <^v> oerjan, im thinking of making a website designed to teach people esolangs
02:58:36 <^v> like hackthissite but challenges with esolangs
02:59:06 <coppro> oerjan: archive binge is for the activity
02:59:21 <coppro> the issue is subject/object
02:59:24 <coppro> I archive binge a comic
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03:00:32 <oerjan> there's also wikiwalk for another instance
03:04:00 <oerjan> coppro: well there's "draw ... in" i guess
03:04:39 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
03:04:49 <tswett> `run words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20}
03:04:55 <HackEgo> saligeter fla 1ml difying hangoint fetie ravi monsta mal frea catchdndh teme bearj tript nanegle tbf antinar veliul goul montiner
03:05:08 <tswett> I'm trying to think of a name for my database query language based on category theory.
03:06:26 <oerjan> REL is the category of relations iirc hth
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03:15:48 <oerjan> huh the disk winding down seems to have stopped.
03:16:19 <oerjan> but now there's some clicking instead. i guess this is not a good sign...
03:17:24 * oerjan changes the windows setting down from 1000 mins to 21 mins again, just in case...
03:20:27 <tswett> Dunno, I kind of want to just think of an arbitrary word and stick a Q in it.
03:22:24 <\oren\> oerjan: get a new computer
03:22:41 <tswett> Queece. Quines. Qrew. Quendy.
03:23:16 <tswett> Qonstellation. Quirthmark.
03:24:28 <tswett> (Anyone see the trend here?)
03:24:52 <tswett> Ooh, I like it. It's like a portmanteau of "query" and "query".
03:25:52 <tswett> Quite. Quack. Queen. Quellow. Qued. Quue.
03:26:45 <oerjan> \oren\: erm i just got this back from the repair shop, the hdd is new as i said.
03:26:58 <tswett> I dunno, I'm ready to just start trying arbitrary meaningless words.
03:27:14 <oerjan> now the winding down came back.
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03:29:22 <tswett> Wait, how about... Qone?
03:39:15 <tswett> Quendle? I like the way that sounds.
03:39:24 <\oren\> jesus christ this is terrifying. Fontforge does not autotrace well at small sizes
03:40:54 -!- andrew has joined.
03:47:11 <\oren\> here this is the autotraced version http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemowtf.htm
03:47:25 <\oren\> not to e confused with fontdemo.htm
03:49:04 <\oren\> Basically, autotracing it in a normal way makes it a halloween font
03:49:46 <\oren\> That's why I have my complex procedure
03:56:06 <Newyorkadam> shortest someone can get “”See you in another life, brotha!" - Desmond Humes” in brainfuck?
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04:19:38 <zzo38> I have made calculation of the first, second, and third derivative of Bezier curves.
04:23:54 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*).
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04:37:00 <zzo38> I think it means, if the jerk is zero then the middle control point have the same direction as the end point from each other but only one third of the distance
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04:42:40 <BloodGod> If I am interested in writing an interpreted language, should I learn java? I see a LOT of mentionings of java in interpreters.
04:44:49 <zzo38> You don't have to use Java; there are other programming languages to use
04:45:21 <\oren\> cleartpye really screws things up when background: green; color: fuchsia;
04:46:09 <BloodGod> I was just curious as I see java everywhere while looking at languages. Must jut be a very very commonly used language.
04:47:02 <\oren\> it's the lingua franca among the younger generation of application coders
04:47:29 <BloodGod> I guess I'm weird in multiple ways. 18 and I main C.
04:47:31 <\oren\> especially those trained at school
04:48:33 <\oren\> I write C++ for my job
04:49:05 <^v> \oren\, what type of applications do you make in C++
04:49:23 <\oren\> I work on the backend of Hound
04:49:56 <\oren\> http://www.soundhound.com/hound <-- this
04:51:05 <\oren\> I learned to code on my own and didn't take courses until university, so I didn't learn much java
04:51:53 <\oren\> To an acceptable degree I know C, C++, Perl, VB, Python, and PHP.
04:52:14 <BloodGod> First language I touched was java, because I was lazy and tired of manually doing time dialation calculations. Also, I'm having issues finding sources for 4DL, any tips?
04:52:46 <^v> i dont see a benefit in having to go to a university in order to learn programming, since i already know C++, C, Lua, PHP, GLSL, OpenCL
04:53:16 <^v> working on using dat arm/thumb in real world robotics
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04:54:28 <^v> i really dont like java
04:54:33 <\oren\> I made sure to take a lot of math, rather than CS, in uni, that way I learned more. (My degree was still in CS)
04:54:57 <\oren\> E.g. I took advanced calculus and number theory
04:55:01 <^v> yeah i could be better at math
04:55:37 <^v> but i still havent used anything more complicated than trig for physics and simulation programs
04:56:57 <\oren\> The cost/benefit of a university degree is getting worse and worse
04:58:13 <\oren\> so, I've told younger friends of mine: don't get a degree unless your parents are paying.
04:58:18 <^v> especially a CS degree is useless if you dont know the programming language the job requires
04:59:37 <\oren\> ^v: I'm not so sure, when I got my first job I told them flatly I dodn't know any PHP, but apparently I'm the only one applied who could write a working program in any language...
04:59:39 <zzo38> I program in C and BASIC and TeX and 6502 assembly language
05:00:03 <\oren\> so they hired me and I spent the first week learning php
05:00:07 <^v> 6502 asm :o not many people do that anymore
05:00:22 <\oren\> I do, for modding NES games
05:00:45 <BloodGod> Ahah, you guys seem way out of my league. I was considering getting some assembly practice in (i do some smali programming, assembly isn't far off)
05:01:10 <^v> \oren\, i did PHP when i was 13/14 xD it seems to be getting worse and worse the more i look back at it
05:01:48 <^v> oh and also a few months ago modding PHPBB
05:01:55 <\oren\> PHP is horrible and I was very glad when summer and that contract ended
05:04:10 <BloodGod> Hm.. how hard is it to write an interpreter for an existing language?
05:04:54 <\oren\> depends on the language. if it has a clear definition then pretty easy
05:09:02 <^v> yeah pretty easy
05:12:28 <BloodGod> I found the source for one (that doesnt seem to work) in c++, im skimming it and it doesn't seem too hard. Just new.
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05:21:20 <\oren\> Bah, I rerely have a cold that last more than 2 days
05:22:37 <Newyorkadam> I managed to do in brainfuck in 324 characters what a program did in 302!!
05:27:24 <Newyorkadam> prints out “See ya in another life, brotha!" - Desmond Hume”
05:29:03 <BloodGod> Nice. I made a program in befunge-98 (1903 characters) that does **basically** the same thing a program i made in C (2254 characters) does
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06:16:17 <quintopia> hmm i wonder if the inventor of su doku was envisioning a 3x3x3x3 4-cube. i wonder if the original notes said "every axis-aligned hyperplane slices through exactly the digits 1-9 in some order"
06:51:18 <zzo38> Karplusan Forest will damage you immediately and City of Brass will damage you later so you still get a chance to do other stuff. Isn't it?
07:20:43 <lifthrasiir> idea: a command line sudoku game which sits in the login shell of the user `doku` so that `su doku` runs it
07:40:28 <zzo38> I have made up several more Magic: the Gathering cards as well as a new puzzle.
07:52:42 <zzo38> You can use " dd cbs=1 conv=unblock 2> /dev/null | tr \\n +" instead of "utftovlq 8w | tr \\0 +"
07:56:37 <^v> :( i feel like every time i join a community there is nobody on my skill level
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12:48:51 <b_jonas> my mobile phone is like an old video game. there's a menu where if I enter the menu and start scrolling it rightaway, it scrolls slow, but if I instead wait a few deciseconds and then start scrolling, it scrolls much faster, so the latter is faster if I want to move enough.
13:25:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45783&oldid=45782 * Luis Mendo * (+0) /* Fibonacci sequence */
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14:04:57 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 23h 30m 49s ago: Never!
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14:44:29 <\oren\> I added 龍根案梅械植業極様標横橋機残殺毒波泣注泳
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14:45:51 <b_jonas> \oren\: can't watch now, I'm busy doing real life stuff
14:46:10 <boily> hellørjan, b_jhellonas, he\\oren\!
14:46:29 <boily> \oren\: progressing through the kyōiku?
14:46:29 <b_jonas> also mesing up my computer and stuff like that
14:46:37 <boily> computers are real life.
15:05:24 <lifthrasiir> working on the contour extraction, for the preparation of the real font
15:05:44 <lifthrasiir> frankly speaking that's annoying than drawing glyphs :S
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15:09:28 <tswett> So I'm calling my language Quendle for the time being.
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15:51:21 <boily> \oren\: have you anointed your printer with the blood of your enemies? filled its ink cartridges with dark ichor from abyssal depths? turned it off and on again?
15:57:41 <\oren\> I took out the ink and did the ink shaking dance, that got it working
15:59:22 <oerjan> did you use a pentagram for dancing in
16:00:58 <oerjan> boily: now i'm imagining tech support for supervillains
16:01:53 <b_jonas> a pentagram with candles, and an altar stained with the blood of previous sacrifices?
16:02:51 <oerjan> now i'm disappointed by a lack of youtube hits
16:05:33 <oerjan> slightly encouraged by getting this hit from "necromancer tech support" http://necrodancer.com/faq.php
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16:51:47 <quintopia> why doesnt http://esolangs.org/wiki/MATL show up on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Golfing_language ? Neither does Seriously.
16:52:53 <oerjan> maybe it's that old caching bug
16:54:03 <oerjan> well on https, and i'm logged in.
16:54:50 <Taneb> Shows up logged in over http and https
16:54:58 <Taneb> Doesn't show up logged out on either
16:55:05 <oerjan> huh i see 11 when logged in, but only 5 without
16:56:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Golfing language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45784&oldid=44566 * Oerjan * (+1) ye olde caching bug workaround
16:57:17 <oerjan> mind you, it might be the same with severals categories
17:07:14 <quintopia> ah. do anonymous users get cached versions?
17:08:02 <oerjan> and there is/was a bug for Categories where they don't get recached unless you edit the category page itself
17:08:30 <oerjan> ...i suppose it must still be there, since those languages are new
17:09:15 <oerjan> @ask fizzie any idea how to fix the category caching bug on the wiki? see logs.
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17:58:07 <fizzie> oerjan: No idea. Is this some sort of a know MediaWiki thing?
17:58:50 <fizzie> I've been a bit lax in updating the soft ware, but I'll get to that one of these days.
17:59:48 <boily> spoken like a true sysadmin.
18:00:23 <boily> oerjan: québécois word of the day: "amodné" (subjective spelling).
18:00:47 <fizzie> Yeah, based on some quick browsing, it sounds like it's our use of $wgUseFileCache = true; which is self-admittedly "simplistic".
18:03:49 <fizzie> Or at least could be. The documentation says special pages aren't cached, but maybe categories aren't special.
18:09:26 <fizzie> I didn't find any caches on the server, though.
18:09:40 <fizzie> (Other than some js/css stuff.)
18:09:53 <tswett> boily: is that pronounced something like /amodne/?
18:10:16 <oerjan> we've discussed this bug before, maybe ais523 remembers something.
18:11:34 <oerjan> from https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Category#Adding_a_category_by_using_a_template "When you edit an article to add a category tag directly, the list of category members is updated immediately when the page is saved."
18:11:46 <oerjan> so it's clearly not _supposed_ to work this way in general.
18:13:11 <fizzie> cache/4/44/Category%3AGolfing_language.html says "This page was last modified on 5 December 2015, at 16:55" and "The following 11 pages are in this category, out of 11 total."
18:13:47 <olsner> boily: what does that mean?
18:13:59 <fizzie> Unless you/someone did something manual to make it refresh.
18:14:25 <fizzie> Any other examples of stale categories I could check for in the file cache?
18:15:10 <tswett> olsner: past participle of "amodner".
18:15:37 <oerjan> fizzie: yes, i used a "null edit" on that particular page.
18:16:04 <oerjan> although it is possible that a Purge would have been enough, if i had remembered it.
18:17:06 <fizzie> cache/e/ea/Category%3AStack-based.html doesn't contain MATL, and says "This page was last modified on 13 February 2006, at 14:44."
18:17:07 <oerjan> fizzie: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Stack-based
18:17:16 <fizzie> Got there a bit ahead of you.
18:17:53 <fizzie> Yeah, it seems like it's quite wrong. Incidentally, how stale is it -- how many entries there are logged in?
18:18:07 <fizzie> (171 in the cached one.)
18:18:41 <fizzie> <!-- Cached 20150526173050 --> oh, there's even a comment
18:19:32 <oerjan> that recently? then it must occasionally get cached...
18:20:16 <fizzie> I think it's supposed to work; there's some stuff about invalidation in the docs.
18:20:24 <fizzie> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual_talk:File_cache#category_pages_in_cache_do_not_get_updated -- but other people have had problems with it.
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18:21:01 <fizzie> There's a &action=purge workaround mentioned, but not whether it's fixed in some version.
18:21:17 <boily> tswett: close, but very not quite :D
18:21:33 <fizzie> Both linked-to bug reports are still open.
18:22:04 <boily> olsner: a butchered conflagration of "à un moment donné": "at a given moment". figuratively "eventually", probably close to inch'allah.
18:22:32 <fizzie> Well, one was closed as a dupe of the first one.
18:25:17 <lambdabot> EGLL 051820Z AUTO 22017KT 9999 BKN023 13/08 Q1016 NOSIG
18:25:26 <fizzie> It's so bizarre, 13 degrees in December.
18:26:51 <lambdabot> LOWI 051820Z VRB01KT CAVOK 01/M01 Q1032 NOSIG
18:26:58 <boily> fizzie: that's outrageous!
18:27:01 <int-e> I don't know what you're talking about.
18:27:01 <lambdabot> CYUL 051800Z 24016KT 15SM OVC023 06/01 A3061 RMK SC8 SLP366
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18:30:10 <oerjan> fizzie: i see some mention of simply deleting the cached category files
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18:32:27 <flaw600> hello all. I'm trying to shorten the following brainfuck code and was wondering if there was a way to do it
18:32:32 <flaw600> ++++++++[>++++>++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++<<<<<<-]
18:33:04 <oerjan> was that made by bf_txtgen
18:35:25 <fizzie> oerjan: Yeah, I assume I could do that every now and then as a crummy workaround.
18:36:20 <flaw600> oh sorry, wasn't meant for me
18:36:46 <oerjan> it looks very much similar to what bf_txtgen puts at the beginning
18:36:56 <oerjan> !bf_txtgen Hello, world!
18:36:58 <flaw600> oh? then no, it wasn't made by a textgen. By me
18:37:06 <EgoBot> 125 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [836]
18:37:54 <flaw600> I mean. I studied Wikipedia's Hello World and based it off of that so the general idea's the same but it was by me
18:38:02 <oerjan> > 8*length"+++++++++++++++"
18:38:57 <boily> flaw600: o hai! you should use multiplication tables. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants
18:39:46 <oerjan> boily: i don't think that's going to be shorter for initializing several cells
18:40:09 <int-e> hmmm... something like >++++>++++++>++>+>+>+[[<+>>++++++++<-]<]> ?
18:40:42 <flaw600> I think that's an infinite loop
18:41:19 <oerjan> flaw600: you could try experimenting with making the initial ++++++++ a different length (say twice as long). although int-e looks like he has a smarter idea.
18:41:20 <fizzie> Depending on how exactly it needs to be equivalent, a nested ++++++++++[->+>+>+>+<<<<-]>++>+++>++++>+++++ replacing some of ++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++<<<< might be worth it.
18:41:22 <flaw600> boily: I think it'd be longer to use that for initializing several cells, but thanks :)
18:41:41 <fizzie> If you don't mind a gap.
18:42:28 <flaw600> as far as equivalencies go, I just need the contents of the cells to be the same, but the actual position doesn't need to be fixed
18:45:33 <flaw600> the idea is that I'd need 8*4, 8*10, and then 8*12...8*15. The order in which those appear is not as important to me
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18:49:07 <oerjan> right, i think int-e is on the right track
18:49:36 <oerjan> <int-e> hmmm... something like >++++>++++++>++>+>+>+[[<+>>++++++++<-]<]> ?
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18:50:21 <boily> the sun is up. time to sleep.
18:50:49 <oerjan> ^bf >++++>++++++>++>+>+>+[[<+>>++++++++<-]<]>[.>]
18:50:52 <int-e> >>++++>++++++>++>+>+>+>+[<]>>[<[>+<<++++++++>-]>>]<<<[<] actually produces the right numbers, but the [<] in there are silly.
18:50:57 <boily> quinthellopia. no?
18:51:06 <quintopia> did you stay up all night without me?
18:51:55 <boily> nope. I slept a full 8 hours as usual. but I need a nap :)
18:52:05 <oerjan> int-e: well he said he didn't mind the order, so you could reverse them
18:52:14 <quintopia> you do a very good job of leaving when i get here EVERY DAMN DAY
18:52:39 <flaw600> I mean I like the order as is since it's in my order anyway, but yeah, the order itself itself isn't as important. thanks int-e :)
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18:53:16 <int-e> >+>+>+>+>++>++++++>++++<[>[<+>>++++++++<-]<<]>>> produces the same numbers in reverse order and places the pointer on the 8*15
18:53:38 <quintopia> it's been a long time since this channel was BFgolf
18:54:42 <quintopia> there's a really good program for producing fairly short versions of various strings (not perfect, but better than bf_txtgen in most cases)
18:54:49 * oerjan has a hunch flaw600 might want to start on the 8*10
18:55:35 <flaw600> yeah I do actually, thanks oerjan. But thanks you two. I was trying to get something like that (the >+>+>+ thing) but I'm new to bf so I couldn't figure it out
18:56:07 <oerjan> well int-e did most of the thinking because i'm too lazy :)
18:56:52 <flaw600> quintopia: there's a program? I haven't seen one that bests what I'd written in terms of code length. Would you mind linking me? That said, I like doing stuff outside of generators cause it helps me learn
18:57:15 <flaw600> quintopia: 32, 80, 96, 104, 112, 120
18:57:17 <oerjan> @ask But will you be J.S. or P.D.Q.?
18:57:24 <oerjan> @ask boily But will you be J.S. or P.D.Q.?
18:57:25 <int-e> > map (chr . (8*)) [4,10,12,13,14,15]
19:00:15 <quintopia> flaw600: http://www.49-6-dev.net/downloads/bfcompopowpit.zip
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19:02:11 <flaw600> cool thanks. What I'm trying to print out is "This language is easy!!!" but I'm trying to do it w/o a generator b/c a) I haven't seen one that bests 206 (well, now 171) and two, I'm trying to learn and imo it's hard to understand something you didn't write yourself
19:02:36 <flaw600> thanks int-e for the help :)
19:04:50 <quintopia> well that file apparently doesn't open?
19:05:45 <flaw600> like it's a corrupted file?
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19:13:35 <flaw600> at any rate, I really appreciate the help all. At the very least, it's helped me understand pointers a lot better (you all and brainfuck in general)
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19:27:04 <int-e> ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>[>+++++>++++++>+++++++>++<<<<-]>++++.>++++++++.+.>+++.>.<-------.<--------.>++.<++++++.>+++++++.<------.++++++.--.>>.<<++++.>--.>.<<----.----.>.++++++.>+...
19:27:05 <fungot> This language is easy!!!
19:31:14 <int-e> (lucky me, that's 170 characters)
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19:33:39 <flaw600> what'd you do that with? yourself or a generator?
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19:34:16 <flaw600> >>++++>++++++>++>+>+>+>+[<]>>[<[>+<<++++++++>-]>>]<<<[<]>>++++.>>.+.>+++.<<<<.>>>+++.<+.>++.<++++++.>>++.<<------.++++++.--.<<.>>++++.>>--.<<<<.>>----.----.>>.>+.<<<<<+...
19:34:32 <int-e> (with the idea that perhaps 6 cells are too many)
19:34:58 <flaw600> ^bf >>++++>++++++>++>+>+>+>+[<]>>[<[>+<<++++++++>-]>>]<<<[<]>>++++.>>.+.>+++.<<<<.>>>+++.<+.>++.<++++++.>>++.<<------.++++++.--.<<.>>++++.>>--.<<<<.>>----.----.>>.>+.<<<<<+...
19:34:58 <fungot> This language is easy!!!
19:35:46 <int-e> There's a trade-off: Using more cells means larger initialization code and more characters used for traveling (< and >)... it's not clear what the best choice is.
19:36:20 <flaw600> but given the 1 char diff idrc. thanks though :)
19:36:36 <flaw600> it looks like our code is fairly similar apart from the table initialization
19:37:17 <int-e> sure. there's not much room for using loops here
19:38:33 <flaw600> ah so you did 16 instead of 8?
19:39:40 <int-e> right, that's another trade-off.
19:40:11 <int-e> (worse granularity, but fewer pluses inside the second loop)
19:40:19 <flaw600> yeah. more plusses and minuses when getting to the right ASCII character right?
19:42:06 <int-e> there's some more tricks like this that one could try (relying on overflow)
19:42:07 <tswett> It's kind of ironic for BF to teach pointers, seeing as how it doesn't have any.
19:43:48 <flaw600> tswett: it doesn't but it explains the concept to me better than a c/C++ class/book
19:44:26 <quintopia> the program i linked (if it can be made to unzip and run) basically optimizes over number of cells and difference between cells to see which one gives the shortest source
19:45:02 <flaw600> quintopia: cool. I'll take a look at some point, but I wanna feel some pride in my code this time around :p
19:45:23 <flaw600> hello world is basic but teaches a lot :p
19:46:23 <flaw600> tswett: ironically code.sh uses 'pointers' :p
19:46:30 <int-e> "I wanted to write a hello world program with fewer than 300 characters so I had to learn about loops..."
19:47:06 <tswett> Hey, which 10-character brainfuck program runs . the greatest number of times?
19:47:10 <flaw600> not my fault that bf is ultra verbose
19:47:31 <tswett> Assume there are infinitely many cells, each holds a byte, you can't input, and going to the left of the initial cell causes the program to stab you in the face.
19:47:48 <int-e> unless you want to copy input to output: ,[.,] is hard to beat
19:48:09 <tswett> By "unless" do you mean "if"?
19:48:47 <int-e> I don't think so; I was refering to "bf is ultra verbose"
19:49:19 <flaw600> int-e: I meant compared to higher level languages
19:49:31 <flaw600> hello world is a lot shorter in HLLs
19:50:07 <flaw600> but admitedly, BF isn't always verobse
19:51:11 <tswett> There's this cute Haskell program:
19:52:19 <tswett> `run echo '#!/bin/rm' > bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
19:52:25 <tswett> `run chmod +x bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
19:52:51 <int-e> `` chmod -w bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
19:53:20 <tswett> `run echo '#!/bin/rm -f' > bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
19:53:21 <HackEgo> bash: bin/you-can-only-run-this-once: Permission denied
19:54:46 <int-e> tswett: also, what about symlinking the program?
19:55:03 <tswett> I don't actually know what that does.
19:55:18 <tswett> `run echo '#!/bin/echo' > bin/echo-this
19:55:28 <tswett> `run ln -s echo-this bin/echo-that
19:55:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/echo-this: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/echo-this: cannot execute: Permission denied
19:55:40 <tswett> `run chmod +x bin/echo-this
19:55:41 <flaw600> can someone explain symlinking? I've never understood that really beyond how TM uses it
19:56:46 <tswett> flaw600: well, a symbolic link is pretty much just a text file containing a filename. The special thing about it is that when you ask Linux to open up a symbolic link, it will generally pretend you asked it to open up the target file instead.
19:56:58 <int-e> flaw600: I don't get the question. "symlink" is a contraction of "symbolic link", which is a reference on a file system to another file (or directory) by name.
19:57:12 <int-e> (I didn't get the TM there)
19:57:34 <flaw600> int-e: Time Machine. I know that's how TM saves backup space but I didn't really understand how it worked
19:57:47 <tswett> So, I just told Linux to run /hackenv/bin/echo-that. Linux then saw that /hackenv/bin/echo-that is a symbolic link file containing the filename "echo-this", so it then ran /hackenv/bin/echo-this instead.
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20:09:03 <tswett> Symbolic links: not very similar to pointers!
20:09:21 <tswett> I mean, the concept is similar, but the behavior isn't.
20:10:57 <int-e> there's a funny analogy there... where mounting file systems becomes page table manipulation...
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20:43:07 <tswett> `run rm bin/echo-th{is,at}
20:43:29 <tswett> `run chmod +w bin/you-can-only-run-this-once; echo '#!/bin/rm -f' > bin/you-can-only-run-this-once; chmod -w bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
20:59:19 <int-e> `` you-can-only-run-this-once canary
20:59:33 <int-e> `` which you-can-only-run-this-once
20:59:35 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
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21:01:53 <int-e> `you-can-only-run-this-once -i
21:02:24 <HackEgo> /bin/rm: remove regular file `/hackenv/bin/you-can-only-run-this-once'?
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21:45:23 <B1ood> Goodbye #esoteric, I will be back soon.
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23:02:17 <int-e> `` tr a-z n-za-m <<<szxrdftcyu
23:05:24 <\oren\> that wasn't a code it was me rolling something over my keyboard
23:06:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:ORBAT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45785&oldid=10109 * 62.116.219.97 * (-59) Remove dead link
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23:13:34 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 4h 16m 9s ago: But will you be J.S. or P.D.Q.?
23:34:17 <boily> today is an undo day. I slept!
23:47:30 <boily> myself. it's an un-do day.
23:51:14 <Taneb> I went to a workshop on software verification
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00:20:26 <oerjan> Taneb: can you prove that?
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00:27:47 <boily> those ikea pepparkakor I'm munching on are good until August 2016. that's disturbingly far away.
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00:35:13 <hppavilion[1]> 2) A programming language based on group/ring/field/whatever theory as applied to practical computers
00:44:20 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a higher-level bit transformation rule language right now
00:57:17 <hppavilion[1]> There. That defines a long integer with + defined.
01:00:48 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I need attention for my hard* work. Are you present to do that?
01:04:10 * boily hides behinds his mapole
01:04:15 <Taneb> Can anyone identify this format? http://arin.ga/tggoy8
01:04:22 <Taneb> (from Crusader Kings 2 data files)
01:05:00 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Never seen it before. Could be custom, which would be stupid.
01:07:46 <boily> looks like it's custom. e.g. building modding: http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Building_modding
01:11:43 <Taneb> Awww, I was hoping it was a common format I wasn't familiar with
01:11:51 <Taneb> So there already existed a parser in Haskell
01:12:08 <boily> writing parsers aren't that hard. I loves me some attoparsec.
01:12:21 <boily> speaking of parsers, anybody here doing the Advent of Code?
01:13:13 <hppavilion[1]> boily: What do you think of my bit transformation rule language?
01:14:01 <boily> http://adventofcode.com/
01:15:07 <boily> something like an L-system with better flexibility.
01:16:01 <boily> do you think you could write a DSL in Haskell for that?
01:19:00 <boily> my interest is piqued.
01:20:11 <hppavilion[1]> I might be able to write a Haskell DSL, but I think it'd make more sense to make it in a low-level language
01:22:18 <hppavilion[1]> boily: The idea behind the language is that you have to roll your own data types; you have plenty of available things, but data types must be made from scratch operating on individual bits.
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01:30:54 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I believe that I created it for a language I'm making called MarcoPolo so that I could apply group theory to it; however, it doesn't seem to have worked out
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01:49:46 <HackEgo> haskell'/Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
01:49:47 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: that's an interesting idea, there. It's sort of like you're defining operators out of logic gates.
01:50:10 <HackEgo> pietbot/Pietbot is the only thing that can defeat fungot.
01:50:38 <boily> fungot: have you ever been defeated?
01:50:38 <fungot> boily: you pick the time that happens, right. but in a more platonic sense, and with a more specific social purpose.
01:51:10 <boily> fungot: do you know love?
01:51:17 <fungot> boily: in a good way though her life would be short. with no other choice. you will march right up. nice!
01:51:31 <boily> fungot: no, I have a girlfriend.
01:52:51 <tswett> `run wisdom pietbot | hexdump
01:52:52 <HackEgo> 0000000 6970 7465 6f62 2f74 6950 7465 6f62 2074 \ 0000010 7369 7420 6568 6f20 6c6e 2079 6874 6e69 \ 0000020 2067 6874 7461 6320 6e61 6420 6665 6165 \ 0000030 2074 7566 676e 746f 0a2e \ 000003a
01:56:38 <tswett> `run wisdom pietbot | od -t x1
01:56:39 <HackEgo> 0000000 70 69 65 74 62 6f 74 2f 50 69 65 74 62 6f 74 20 \ 0000020 69 73 20 74 68 65 20 6f 6e 6c 79 20 74 68 69 6e \ 0000040 67 20 74 68 61 74 20 63 61 6e 20 64 65 66 65 61 \ 0000060 74 20 66 75 6e 67 6f 74 2e 0a \ 0000072
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03:19:11 <oerjan> Installing update 49 of 174...
03:36:35 <zzo38> Blood doesn't seem very good for writing with; I have tried.
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03:37:19 <zzo38> I don't get consistent colours.
03:45:24 <hppavilion[1]> I have decided on _| and |_ for FOLDR and FOLDL, respectively, in W'' (which I've renamed)
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04:41:51 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Have any good ideas for a data model I should use?
05:11:49 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: make it a little bit like brainfuck
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05:19:19 <Elronnd> oh, Patashu, I didn't know you hung around in #esoteric
05:36:10 <zzo38> What does powerlurk mean?
05:36:40 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Lurk with the wrath of a billion dying stars
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05:41:25 <zzo38> I don't know, probably many people are now dead
05:57:14 <zzo38> I program in C, and I put the left brace on the same line with whatever comes before it
05:57:49 <zzo38> Haskell allows you to omit the braces if you wish (if you do, then you can omit the semicolons too), although I use the braces with the similar style of C.
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06:05:01 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: izabera: That's what makes sense; without it, it looks like you have an "if-then" line (or while, or whatever) followed by a code block, as opposed to an "if-then" and a body for it
06:08:36 <izabera> the actual question is: where do you put else?
06:09:19 <zzo38> I do it like } else {
06:09:50 <izabera> i think that looks silly and write else on a new line
06:10:18 <zzo38> That's OK, you can do it if you want to, but I prefer the same line because it is the part of the same "if" statement
06:11:15 <izabera> also very important is where to align }
06:11:16 <hppavilion[1]> I think else should go on the same line as the }, so it is mentally associated with the construct instead of looking like its own block, but it doesn't matter /nearly/ as much as where you start the code block, which is a thing that matters a lot and has significant impacts on the world.
06:11:30 <hppavilion[1]> Where you put else is really just a question of style in comparison
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07:06:23 <myname> also, else has to be on the same line as }
07:34:13 <izabera> random idiot with a machete in london stabbed people because syria
07:35:49 <izabera> what kind of attack is that
07:38:01 <izabera> he was tazed and arrested in like 10 minutes
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07:54:19 <izabera> hppavilion[1]: yeah but only injured
07:54:36 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Ah. Pretty lame attack, but some attacks have been lamer
07:55:01 <hppavilion[1]> (No one died except the attacker, and it was a suicide, so I can say it was "awesome")
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08:11:33 <Sgeo> https://github.com/ferno/base65536
08:11:57 <quintopia> @tell boily i was thinking of doing advent of code but decided I wouldnt be able to cuz vacation
08:11:58 <myname> v1 would make the else case even worse
08:15:35 <Sgeo> There's a use case for this.
08:23:54 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: Pfffft. Base 65536? Why not 1.84467440737096 * 10^19?
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12:57:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Eternity]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45786 * Jabutosama * (+519) Created page with "Eternity is esolang made by [[user:Jabutosama]]. It is maybe one of the most useful languages in the world, but is has one problem which makes language not useful at all. Ete..."
12:59:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45787&oldid=45590 * Jabutosama * (+78) /* General languages */
13:00:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Eternity]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45788&oldid=45786 * Jabutosama * (+11)
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14:17:55 <lambdabot> quintopia said 6h 5m 57s ago: i was thinking of doing advent of code but decided I wouldnt be able to cuz vacation
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14:18:25 <boily> @ask quintopia QUINTHELLOPIA! you are being vacationed?
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14:44:30 <lambdabot> CYUL 061400Z 22013KT 12SM OVC013 03/01 A3044 RMK ST8 SLP309
14:48:12 <lambdabot> EGLL 061420Z AUTO 22012KT 9999 BKN007 OVC016 13/11 Q1017 TEMPO SCT007
14:53:10 <fizzie> Yesterday I prepared a "final" thesis draft, addressing comments from the preliminary examination round. I might eventually get that thesis done.
14:53:29 <fizzie> It was intended to be finished by the end of 2014.
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15:08:57 <mroman> fungot: How's the weather in funtown?
15:08:58 <fungot> mroman: are you in the medium. wv could type commands for the characters to follow. most of john's dad, who broke a huge wizard
15:09:23 <mroman> after all, soundwaves and other waves travel through me
15:11:55 <boily> mrelloman. feeling post-modernist today?
15:12:17 <boily> fizzie: it's a thesis. it leaks through space and time to occupy all available resources.
15:12:55 <mroman> I don't get that referenc.
15:13:06 <boily> I think there are Feynman diagrams to modelize theses.
15:13:28 <boily> thesises? plurals are complicated.
15:14:43 <boily> mroman: the medium is the message, and other disconstructions of the same kind.
15:14:56 <fizzie> boily: I was using the Harvard style for citations and the list of references, and our doctoral studies committee's "permission to publish" meeting feedback was that it's okay, but I need to change the list of references to use the Harvard style. I asked for more details, and got back "sorry, we don't have detailed instructions, but here's a stock description of the Harvard style from a random ...
15:14:56 <fizzie> ... Internet page of <another university>". The description matched the original draft.
15:15:01 <oerjan> hm there's that weird script error again tdnh
15:15:08 <fizzie> Due to a lack of better options, I switched to an "even more Harvard" bibtex style.
15:15:10 <oerjan> only once, like last time
15:15:28 <fizzie> My thesis instructor/supervisor could provide no further insight to the mind of the Committee, either.
15:16:15 <fizzie> Apparently they've got a particular Harvard style variant (that's not surprising -- every institution in the world does, seemingly), which is kept safely hidden from students, and their theses are then compared against that.
15:16:58 <fizzie> I assume this is because otherwise they might have to accept some works without requiring revisions.
15:17:04 <fizzie> And that would never do.
15:17:06 <oerjan> clearly it's a clairvoyance test
15:17:07 <mroman> I'm using scientology style.
15:17:10 <boily> the principle of Maximal Disagreement strikes again.
15:17:34 * boily has flashbacks of his time in University
15:18:08 <oerjan> to comply with the thesis requirements you need flashforwards hth
15:19:12 <fizzie> I've now switched it from natbib's "abbrvnat" to one of the styles in the 'harvard' package, which does put the publication year in a slightly different place in the actual bibliography. Perhaps that will be enough.
15:22:02 * oerjan spots Walpurgisnacht in the logs
15:22:28 <boily> quinthellopia! sorry, only about eight minutes left for me until I shower then mahjong in a faraway place.
15:23:00 <oerjan> maybe it is *DUN DUN DUN* ... oh.
15:23:27 <boily> 60~75 minutes by public transit. we play at a nice café in Verdun today.
15:24:16 <lambdabot> boily asked 1h 5m 50s ago: QUINTHELLOPIA! you are being vacationed?
15:24:23 <boily> Québec is between 2 and 3 hours, nothing to fret about.
15:24:48 <boily> (by car, and if the driver is Asian. damn that one time was fast...)
15:25:24 <boily> aerpland, flown by Tanea Airlines.
15:26:44 <boily> it's that xkcd tetris with the round bottom hth
15:28:15 <oerjan> is tjis a misspelling or an acronym twh
15:28:43 <boily> The Jeudi Is Sunday hth
15:29:04 <boily> which islands? small islands, medium islands, big islands, recursive islands?
15:30:49 <boily> bontopie jouintopiarnée!
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15:56:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45789&oldid=45571 * Jabutosama * (+118) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */ added comment and explanation
16:05:24 <mroman> would the media please stop glorifying people who travel to syria to fight ISIS.
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16:48:07 <lifthrasiir> http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/live *phew*
16:48:46 <lifthrasiir> it took a lot to make the font available in ttf
16:49:08 <lifthrasiir> no hinting atm, but should be usable as a terminal font now (probably?)
16:49:27 <lifthrasiir> it still has some rough edges, including an inability to load from OS X (don't know why)
16:50:00 <izabera> lifthrasiir: http://i.imgur.com/YzYzUuN.png
16:50:42 <izabera> i don't know that but i see some fuzzy ones
16:51:20 <izabera> fwiw firefox on arch linux
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17:42:56 * impomatic_ wants to make a bitmap font... I think I've found a utility to do it.
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18:13:57 <zzo38> For a terminal font you should be able to use a bitmap font though?
19:00:08 <zzo38> As far as I can tell, if a Magic: the Gathering card just says "choose one" without listing any choices, then you cannot cast that spell (as there are no legal modes) unless it has entwine.
19:00:47 <zzo38> (If you pay the entwine cost then you can cast it, but it does nothing when it resolves.)
19:23:37 <impomatic_> I want to make a bitmap font I can use from Windows. I assume a
19:24:04 <impomatic_> .FON file is the best option. Which appears to be an executable file.
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20:30:49 <zzo38> My Magic: the Gathering puzzle.5 is much easier; you can try that one!
20:33:50 <b_jonas> What the, why does this hard disk or file system read so slowly now?
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20:43:31 <zzo38> I don't know why? It is hardly any information to figure out
20:43:52 <b_jonas> ok wait, what size is a dvd these days? I keep forgetting. I know it's a bit over 4 GiB
20:45:40 <b_jonas> uh, yes, but what's the unit of that?
20:46:14 <b_jonas> sectors I guess, but what size is a sector on a data dvd
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20:53:04 <b_jonas> I wonder if the problem is the disk, the disk driver and kernel, the file system, the file system driver, or just this whole system bitrotting away. Will see later.
21:11:37 <fizzie> I just replaced a disk that started generating smartd emails about a nonzero SMART "Offline_Uncorrectable" count.
21:12:06 <fizzie> It was acting pretty slow when rebuilding the RAID thing, but I assume you'd know if that were happening.
21:28:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45790&oldid=45783 * Luis Mendo * (-4) /* Compiler */
21:32:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45791&oldid=45790 * Luis Mendo * (+445) /* Specification */
21:35:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45792&oldid=45791 * Luis Mendo * (-1) /* Compiler */
21:35:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: well, I have already bought an extra hard disk I'm not using right now, because my first hard disk is suspicious to me. this second hard disk is slow, but I don't think it's faulty, I think it's just a file system thing.
21:37:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45793&oldid=45792 * Luis Mendo * (+0) /* Fibonacci sequence */
21:41:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45794&oldid=45793 * Luis Mendo * (-307) /* Fibonacci sequence */
21:41:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45795&oldid=45794 * Luis Mendo * (-3) /* Fibonacci sequence */
21:42:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45796&oldid=45795 * Luis Mendo * (+14) /* Fibonacci sequence */
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22:05:30 <hppavilion[1]> By slowly developing a program designed for actual usage.
22:06:11 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
22:06:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45797&oldid=45796 * Luis Mendo * (-657) /* Specification */
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22:08:10 <hppavilion[1]> Also, I'm slowly developing a personal C++ utility library to make it feel more like Python for me
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22:08:50 <hppavilion[1]> That is, print(string, end="\n", file=cout), input(prompt), readf(filename), etc.
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22:35:13 <^v> hppavilion[1], the best way to learn C++ is in an actual company project xD
22:35:30 <^v> because the hardest part is usually collaboration
22:36:11 <^v> hppavilion[1], you can start from anywhere
22:36:59 <hppavilion[1]> I'm still stuck trying to read a file form a command-line argument and print its contents xD
22:40:12 <^v> wouldnt you be using std::ifstream
22:41:49 <hppavilion[1]> ^v: I am, but there are 12 million different types of strings as it turns out
22:43:18 <hppavilion[1]> Well I got it to read a file and print /something/
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23:01:55 <hppavilion[1]> What is the simplest, most straightforward way to read a file's contents with a function of type `string readf(string fname)` in C++?
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23:16:48 <izabera> in c you can get the file size, then either read or mmap
23:17:04 <izabera> or you can loop character by character
23:18:26 <^v> hppavilion[1], making the function lol
23:28:41 <hppavilion[1]> ^v: Ugh, the file is completely mangled when output. Have any idea why that might be?
23:28:56 <^v> you arent reading it properly?
23:29:04 <^v> perhaps you are printing the pointer, lol
23:32:07 <Sgeo_> I don't know how to casual clothes.
23:32:27 <Sgeo_> "Hat (no visors–must cover top of head–must be packed in backpack)"
23:32:53 <Sgeo_> Hmm, by no visors, do they just mean nothing that's only eye covering (e.g. baseball caps are allowed)?
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23:35:44 <hppavilion[1]> OK, I've got it working to the point of readfline. Now I'll define readf in terms of readfline
23:40:59 <^v> mmap is really fun though
23:42:18 <hppavilion[1]> OK, remembered I can give getline '\0' as a third argument and it'll read the whole file. Now my design is perfect! Yay!
23:51:02 <izabera> i'm completely ignorant but doesn't that read only up to \0 ?
23:55:02 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, as long as the file doesn't contain a \0 before the end, it works
23:58:02 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh, now I'm attempting to implement a doubly-linked list
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00:06:45 <tswett> You know, I think a being which does *not* exist is more perfect than one which does.
00:07:41 <tswett> After all, the most perfect situation is a situation in which nothing is necessary. If the existence of a being is necessary, that being is a mark of imperfection.
00:08:17 <tswett> God, being perfect in all ways, is certainly not a mark of imperfection.
00:08:51 <tswett> The ontological argument got it backwards.
00:09:12 * oerjan sidles away from the puffs of logic
00:11:40 <\oren\> well you've shown that the ontological argument is based on a matter of opinion about what perfection is
00:12:15 <tswett> By the way, let me monologue about my indentation philosophy.
00:13:03 <tswett> A piece of an expression generally consists of an opening delimiter and/or a closing delimiter and/or middle delimiters, along with inner contents.
00:13:29 <tswett> The rule is pretty simple.
00:14:02 <tswett> If the expression-piece is split across multiple lines, then all delimiters should be at the same indentation level, and all inner contents should be at a greater indentation level.
00:14:40 <tswett> Well... that's not completely accurate.
00:14:52 <tswett> In any case, here's how I'd do an "if" statement:
00:15:16 <tswett> All braces are at the same indentation level, as are the keywords "if" and "else".
00:15:46 <tswett> The "indentation level that a token is at" means the amount that the line is indented, not the point where the left edge of the token appears.
00:16:01 <tswett> Meanwhile, "bar;" and "baz;" are at the next greater indentation level.
00:17:00 <tswett> "foo" is inner contents, but it's allowed to occupy a single line along with delimiters.
00:17:02 <\oren\> that's indeed how I indent
00:17:15 <tswett> How about a big function call? Like this:
00:17:47 <\oren\> hmmm that's a good idea
00:18:08 <tswett> Thou shalt not indent a line in order to make its beginning line up with a token inside of the line above it, for that is detestable to Me.
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00:19:39 <tswett> So that means in Haskell, you don't do this:
00:20:35 <tswett> Try to make this "indent the inner contents of a syntax element" thing the only style of indentation that you use.
00:20:46 <tswett> There's one other style which is okay, but should be avoided.
00:21:14 <tswett> Namely: you can break a syntax element that would normally be one line across two lines, putting a line break in an arbitrary place and indenting the second line.
00:23:48 <tswett> Here's an officially tswett-approved way of indenting SQL:
00:23:52 <tswett> ON people.name = cities.name
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00:41:43 * boily is tempted to mapole tswett
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00:47:50 <tswett> . . . .. . .. . . . . .. . .. . . . . .. . .. . . . . .. . .. .
00:48:08 <tswett> .. . . .. . .. ... .. ...... . .. . .. . . ....
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00:50:21 <boily> why do I have the feeling there's a fnord hidden somewhere in that...
00:53:30 <tswett> You know what the worst thing is?
00:54:07 <boily> multiple fnords? no fnords? reverse fnord?
00:54:49 <fizzie> fungot: What's the worst thing in life? Something about your enemies?
00:54:50 <fungot> fizzie: that it makes a guest of it, much as the moon takes liberty. reason. justice. civility. edification. perfection. for the first time in i don't have a very exciting 24 hours or so.
00:57:48 <tswett> The fnord was contained in *your* messages.
00:58:29 <HackEgo> wisdom/fnord: UTF-8 Unicode text
00:58:36 <HackEgo> 0000000 203f afc2 285c b0c2 80e2 5f8b 296f c22f \ 0000010 0aaf \ 0000012
00:58:58 <tswett> `run echo '? ¯\(°_o)/¯' | hexdump
00:58:58 <HackEgo> 0000000 80e2 3f8b c220 5caf c228 e2b0 8b80 6f5f \ 0000010 2f29 afc2 000a \ 0000015
00:59:14 <oerjan> the fnord was in you all along
01:00:06 <tswett> So... how are those different?
01:00:08 <oerjan> tswett: are you confused
01:00:13 <tswett> `run unidecode $(wisdom/fnord)
01:00:15 <HackEgo> bash: wisdom/fnord: Permission denied
01:00:20 <tswett> `run unidecode $(cat wisdom/fnord)
01:00:20 <HackEgo> [U+003F QUESTION MARK] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+00AF MACRON] [U+005C REVERSE SOLIDUS] [U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+005F LOW LINE] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0029 RIGHT PARENTHESIS] [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+00AF MACRON]
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01:00:44 <boily> The Fnord you can grasp is not the True Fnord.
01:00:53 <tswett> `unidecode ? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:00:54 <HackEgo> [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+003F QUESTION MARK] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+00AF MACRON] [U+005C REVERSE SOLIDUS] [U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+005F LOW LINE] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0029 RIGHT PARENTHESIS] [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+00AF MACRON]
01:01:32 <tswett> `run unidecode $(cat /dev/urandom)
01:02:03 <tswett> `run unidecode $(cat /dev/urandom | head -c 50)
01:02:19 <tswett> `loudly Are you still with us, HackEgo?
01:02:25 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unidecode", line 4, in <module> \ s = u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ File "/usr/lib/python2.7/encodings/utf_8.py", line 16, in decode \ return codecs.utf_8_decode(input, err
01:02:26 <HackEgo> Are you still with us, HackEgo?
01:03:19 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ u8tbl \ u8tbl.c \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
01:03:21 <boily> holy fungot. this is aggressive!
01:03:22 <fungot> boily: have a look. which of course it was a nasty pair, but he had already been a mass grave
01:03:47 <oerjan> who the hell wants little-endian 16-bit hexdumps
01:03:53 <tswett> `run unidecode $(ls *yellow*)
01:04:31 <tswett> `run echo $(ls *yellow*)
01:04:43 <tswett> `run unidecode '$(ls *yellow*)'
01:04:44 <HackEgo> [U+0024 DOLLAR SIGN] [U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+002A ASTERISK] [U+0079 LATIN SMALL LETTER Y] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0077 LATIN SMALL LETTER W] [U+002A ASTERISK] [U+0029 R
01:05:11 <tswett> `run ls *yellow* | hexdump
01:05:12 <HackEgo> 0000000 3003 2c31 3830 6579 6c6c 776f 0a03 \ 000000e
01:06:20 <oerjan> WHY ARE YOU USING little-endian hexdumps?
01:06:49 <HackEgo> removed `\00301,08yellow\003'
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01:09:33 <oerjan> `` echo hello | hexdump
01:09:34 <HackEgo> 0000000 6568 6c6c 0a6f \ 0000006
01:10:09 <boily> it really is 16 bit little endian. there's something fundamentally wrong there.
01:10:12 <tswett> `run echo 12345 | hexdump
01:10:13 <HackEgo> 0000000 3231 3433 0a35 \ 0000006
01:10:30 <oerjan> `` echo hello | hexdump -C
01:10:32 <HackEgo> 00000000 68 65 6c 6c 6f 0a |hello.| \ 00000006
01:10:55 <boily> as a sane person, I concur.
01:16:37 <HackEgo> :-( \ (* \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ u8tbl \ u8tbl.c \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
01:16:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
01:17:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
01:17:35 <tswett> You seem to be trying to run a command with an empty name.
01:17:58 <tswett> ` Since the command name is the thing between the grave accent and the space.
01:17:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
01:18:06 <tswett> And you're not puting anything there.
01:18:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: (*: not found
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01:18:29 <HackEgo> bash: (*: command not found
01:18:34 <tswett> Also, it's not in bin.
01:18:51 <boily> `` find / -name '(*' -type f
01:19:22 <HackEgo> find: `/proc/tty/driver': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/2/task/2/fd': Permissi
01:19:59 <tswett> `` find / -name '(*' -type f 2>/dev/null
01:21:11 <HackEgo> cat: emoticons/*: No such file or directory
01:21:19 <HackEgo> lol \ 凸 \ ｶﾞ~(ﾟﾛﾟ;)~ﾝ \ (°Д°) \ (≧∇≦)/ \ ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ ーー蟲蟲 \ オラオラオラ（三･o･）三☆三（｀ε´三）無駄無駄無駄無駄
01:21:33 <tswett> We have a bunch of them.
01:21:36 <HackEgo> drowning \ flipbird \ gaaan \ gaan \ kyaa \ shrug \ swatter \ useless
01:22:59 <boily> swatter is pretty nice ^^
01:23:16 <boily> \oren\: do you have 蟲 in your font?
01:30:12 <boily> six 虫 at the end of a stick being swung around!
01:34:35 <\oren\> also the letter omega is now known as wubbleyou
01:35:04 <\oren\> it's a cuddly doubleyou
01:37:08 <boily> `addquote <\oren\> also the letter omega is now known as wubbleyou <\oren\> it's a cuddly doubleyou
01:37:11 <HackEgo> 1260) <\oren\> also the letter omega is now known as wubbleyou <\oren\> it's a cuddly doubleyou
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02:08:42 <tswett> I thought it was spelled "doubleu".
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02:12:52 <izabera> you and your friend have a file with 1000 numbers (two copies of the same file). you have to find the highest number in that file
02:13:00 <izabera> this would be easy, but who finishes first wins
02:13:16 <izabera> and if A finishes first but B finds a larger number, B wins
02:13:49 <izabera> you don't really have to find the highest value, just some value higher than what your friend finds
02:14:04 <izabera> or finish first with the same value
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02:23:58 <boily> sample 1 / e * 1000 values, use the highest.
02:24:13 <boily> > floor $ 1 / (exp 1) * 1000
02:24:30 <oerjan> is that just a guess or do you have proof
02:24:59 <oerjan> i recognize the strategy from a very different problem
02:25:16 <boily> finding the best meal at a restaurant or something, iirc hth
02:26:06 <oerjan> that problem has the restriction that you only get one chance to choose each option.
02:27:26 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure this isn't optimal, because it can be beaten on average by the "check all the numbers dammit" strategy
02:28:30 <oerjan> which i believe _ties_ with the "check 50%" strategy...
02:28:58 <boily> still checking 367 of them because e. I like e.
02:29:54 <oerjan> what about the "check 367", then go on until you find a larger one, then stop
02:30:44 <boily> > (1 % 1 + 1 % 10000000) ^ 10000000
02:30:49 <oerjan> but i'm not sure if it makes sense to use a strategy that is not just a number of values to check
02:31:41 <oerjan> of course if you know your opponent's strategy, you should check one number less i think
02:32:36 <boily> a bfjoust for finding the largest number in a list.
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02:34:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45798&oldid=43930 * Phase * (-1)
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02:38:34 <oerjan> hm this problem has a bit of the two envelopes problem in it
02:49:05 <\oren\> Hmm can't I just run a simulation
03:05:44 <\oren\> wait, what about the order of the numbers
03:06:36 <\oren\> the strategy "check the first N numbers" is faster than "shuffle then check N numbers"
03:17:18 <\oren\> where a,A is advantage to A, b,B is advantage to B
03:18:41 <\oren\> capitals are advantages > 500 in 1000 trials
03:20:02 <\oren\> sort of a prisoner's dilemma happening in part of the diagram
03:20:19 <\oren\> this is on an array of 10 numbers
03:20:27 <oerjan> i think if they always check the first N numbers, then whoever stops first will always have checked a subset of the other one
03:20:35 <oerjan> so will never have a _larger_ number
03:20:53 <oerjan> so there should be shuffling.
03:20:55 <\oren\> also in this simulation, both player shuffle independently
03:22:34 <oerjan> so it is best to check _much_ more numbers than the opponent, or _slightly_ fewer.
03:23:36 <oerjan> the first gives you a better chance of finding the maximum, the latter gives you a better chance of finishing first
03:24:32 <oerjan> (but still with a good maximum)
03:26:38 <\oren\> I should make a better heatmap
03:27:10 <oerjan> if your opponent checks many numbers, you should check slightly fewer. if e checks few, you should check more than em.
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03:28:58 <oerjan> about half is fairly good too
03:30:52 <\oren\> here the greek letters represent an advantage of 3 per 10 or more
03:31:29 <\oren\> eh doesn;t tell much more
03:31:51 <oerjan> there's a kind of phase shift between 4 and 5
03:33:46 <oerjan> it's a little too thin to have rock-paper-scissors
03:34:27 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/envelopes.htm
03:34:28 <oerjan> 4 beats 5 beats 6 beats a beats 4
03:39:07 <\oren\> maybe it would exist if there were more strategies?
03:39:21 <\oren\> that is, a larger array?
03:40:29 <oerjan> well some of those - could be a slight advantage
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03:43:30 <^v> \oren\, i like your style
03:43:44 <^v> who needs pasting services?
03:43:52 <^v> just post the shit IRC
03:45:00 * oerjan wonders if ^v sounds a little grumpy
03:45:32 <^v> its sarcasm xD i dont care if you spam but some people might
03:46:21 <\oren\> ^v: meh, I figure we spent like 10 minutes posting nothing but various dots earlier, so whatever
03:46:28 <oerjan> given that the channel is _still_ slow on average...
03:48:10 <oerjan> the 6 - 7 is the main chokepoint, you cannot avoid having both
03:48:53 <\oren\> I think the lines of - are probably infinitely thin (as the nubmer of options increases)
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03:50:24 <\oren\> but still the b zone and the a zone would always be mirrored created a 6-7 chokepoint
03:53:19 <oerjan> in fact larger seems worse, since the distance between what you can get from 7 and what can reach 6 increases
03:53:44 <oerjan> (in the 4 - 5 case before, they're 8 and 9 so neigbors)
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05:02:07 <\oren\> oerjan: I modified it to print even the smallest advantages
05:02:18 <\oren\> with b as , and a as .
05:03:21 <\oren\> , and . indicate only a 1/100 to 1/10 advantage
05:03:44 <\oren\> but as you can see, at 4,5,6 there is a cycle!
05:06:37 <oerjan> in any case, there's not a winning pure strategy
05:07:16 <oerjan> but there should be a mixed one
05:07:47 <Sgeo_> "Writing U+BF (two hexadecimal digits) is not common practice, nor is writing an odd number of hexadecimal digits."
05:07:54 <Sgeo_> I think that last part of the sentence is wrong
05:08:55 <HackEgo> U+1F673 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f0 9f 99 b3 UTF-16BE: d83dde73 Decimal: 🙳 \ 🙳 (🙳) \ Uppercase: U+1F673 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
05:10:06 <Sgeo_> "UTF-8 can therefore be used to exchange data among computers no matter what their native byte ordering is. For this reason, UTF-8 is becoming the de facto standard for encoding web pages."
05:10:12 <Sgeo_> I... think there may be other reasons too
05:10:42 <\oren\> such as the dominance of linux over web servers?
05:10:58 <Sgeo_> Such as ASCII being valid UTF-8
05:11:03 <Sgeo_> Although the page does mention that
05:11:39 <\oren\> that too, but that's true of Shift-JIS and the EUC-* encodings too
05:16:14 <\oren\> So the combination of being ascii-compatible and supporting all languages
05:16:37 <\oren\> (where all means "languages commonly used on the internet")
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05:32:57 <lifthrasiir> which is pan-Unicode and compatible to GBK in addition to ASCII
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05:43:58 <pikhq> GB 18030 is kinda a pain to encode and decode.
05:44:04 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: and we now have a nasty conversion table, hehe
05:44:44 <pikhq> But, it is at least a full encoding of Unicode, and thus vastly better than the typical legacy encoding.
05:45:13 <pikhq> Much better than, say, Shift-JIS.
05:46:02 <pikhq> Sgeo_: The best rationale is that UTF-8 is: multi-lingual, ASCII compatible, and *relatively easy to support*.
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06:16:52 <zzo38> UTF-8 is compatible with Principle of Extended ASCII though, while Shift-JIS isn't
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07:31:33 <zzo38> Which are better encoding of list of natural numbers as natural numbers, is it the "Reverse Numeric Encoding" (I made it up), or the "Modified Godel Encoding" (my modified version of some other people's idea to make it properly one-to-one)?
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07:38:53 <shachaf> What's the "Reverse Numeric Encoding"?
07:39:31 <zzo38> The one I described before that involves reversing the bits
08:03:41 <zzo38> I do not understand you.
08:07:14 <zzo38> In both cases only finite lists are encoded, but it does even include empty list.
08:07:44 <myname> putting 3 pages of polynoms on a solution to a task: check
08:10:58 <zzo38> If you are encoding tuples instead then you can use Morton encoding (there are other ways too but I used Morton encoding because of INTERCAL); it is simpler than encoding lists.
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08:29:11 <zzo38> Don't you know that INTERCAL can make Morton encodings and Gray encodings?
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08:40:16 <mroman> freenode's having trouble again?
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08:53:11 <mroman> http://i.imgur.com/3DkP9KD.png
08:53:20 <mroman> ^- when 50% of the webpage is advertisment
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09:50:29 <mroman> Well... I've written a tool that "compresses" images down to ASCII only
09:50:43 <mroman> or in other terms: a binary PPM file with only ascii values
09:50:55 <mroman> so every pixel can be represented using only ascii for raw binary ppms
09:51:15 <izabera> can you show some example?
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09:53:45 <mroman> http://codepad.org/WtyQmCT4
09:54:18 <mroman> that's a 32x32 picture of Lena.
09:56:31 <mroman> http://codepad.org/a7KQLWdc <- 128x128 picture of some airport
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09:56:48 <mroman> and as you can probably guess from the repeating values the original picture was a jpeg :D
09:57:53 <mroman> izabera: the image will be darker though, because the max value is 126
09:58:47 <mroman> but you can just use in image viewer than can multiply each value by around 2.8
09:58:54 <mroman> then it looks bright again
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10:04:24 <mroman> but that's not very useful
10:04:29 <mroman> ppm files are too huge
10:04:39 <mroman> you better use png and b64 obviously
10:04:56 <izabera> can you show a larger picture?
10:08:52 <b_jonas> mroman: but wouldn't that restrict what bnrightnesses you can use?
10:09:36 <b_jonas> mroman: wait, why would you use 255 max brightness for this in first place, as opposed to say 126 max brightness?
10:09:46 <b_jonas> that would at least let you make bright pixels, even if not dark ones
10:10:24 <mroman> but ideally it would use 126 as max brightness yes
10:10:33 <mroman> izabera: Just scale down rgb by 2.8 then shift 32
10:15:13 <mroman> izabera: http://codepad.org/GA06KiBh
10:16:39 <zzo38> The RESUME and STASH and RETRIEVE commands of INTERCAL are also very similar command found in dc. The operation of ~ operator is also found in BESM-6 instruction set. The $ and ? operators are also things that have been invented before.
10:17:02 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/imgshare/ascii.ppm
10:17:04 <mroman> That's a bigger picture
10:18:25 <mroman> b_jonas: You only have the range 32-126 available basically
10:18:30 <mroman> really dark things get brighter
10:18:37 <mroman> bright things get darker a lot
10:19:01 <mroman> so yeah, image quality isn't very good :D
10:20:54 <mroman> you can open it in gimp and do a white balance correction
10:21:03 <mroman> and it looks roughly like the original picture again
10:22:20 <b_jonas> mroman: yes, but if you set 126 max brightness then bright things remain bright. and you could try to use newline and a few other control characters for dark stuff.
10:22:36 <b_jonas> you already have newlines in the header
10:23:41 <mroman> yeah but you'd need to shift it down by 32 again
10:23:49 <mroman> since 32 is the darkest value possible
10:24:16 <mroman> but this has no useful purpose anyway
10:24:36 <mroman> that I can think of :)
10:24:42 <mroman> for ASCII medium use b64 :)
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12:11:52 <HackEgo> science/Semi-automatic text generation.
12:13:09 <b_jonas> fungot, do you like ascii ppm?
12:13:09 <fungot> b_jonas: only one of his kind with this mutant candy-red blood. an outcast. he thinks it's about to be. someone needs to grab the beta ( 6) in the room. he briefly speaks to its strife! quota for the day. she simply returns to the land of wind and shade. in a kid's yard. not even that sure why
12:22:11 <boily> fungot: on top of being sentient, your creepiness levels are spiking as of late. please stop.
12:22:11 <fungot> boily: man. it is a good idea.
12:22:16 <fungot> boily: like a very clear mirror to break, luckwise. unfortunately it lacks a portal in space. jade's radioactive, omnipotent, space-warping dog named... which is a name i just made you disappear" and stuff
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14:09:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Silly Emplosions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45799&oldid=13872 * 212.219.250.79 * (+96) /* CONTRADICTIONS */ new section
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14:28:53 <lifthrasiir> https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison is live on Github now.
14:29:12 <lifthrasiir> (also, sample pages etc. are automatically redirected to https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample )
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17:39:05 <BloodGod> I got an idea about two days ago on a language based off befunge and an important hobby of mine, Rubiks cubes. Been working it out since then.
17:57:08 <myname> programming in latex is pretty hard
17:57:27 <myname> way harder than brainfuck
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18:31:38 <zzo38> Then, learn Plain TeX programming.
18:41:04 <myname> i already fail to accomplish shit in latex due to expanding issues
18:41:11 <myname> edef doesn't help, sadly
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18:51:17 <zzo38> I have written the following macro: \def\ecall#1{\begingroup\edef\next{\endgroup#1}\next} It often helps with some things
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18:51:30 <zzo38> Although, expanding issues in TeX can sometimes be confusing
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19:04:33 <zzo38> It fully expands the text before executing it
19:05:21 <myname> well, i do get "missing }" errors out of edef
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19:54:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HYPotenuser * New user account
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20:04:21 <BloodGod> Im trying to figure out how to decrypt some encrypted smali. Woo.
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22:25:22 <hppavilion[1]> Huh. For some reason my doubly-linked list loops back on itself after a certain point
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22:38:54 <hppavilion[1]> The offending line seems to be conductor=conductor->next;, though I could very, /very/ easily be wrong
22:39:19 <hppavilion[1]> I removed all recursion in case it was stack overflowing. That was not the issue.
22:39:55 <hppavilion[1]> (that conductor=conductor->next; is in a "while(conductor->next!=NULL){...}" loop)
22:40:07 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm attempting to find the last item in the list)
22:41:00 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Not if you only follow the "next" pointers
22:44:09 <hppavilion[1]> After the loop is conductor->next = &nd; nd.prev = conductor; and then the function is over
22:44:51 <hppavilion[1]> conductor is a pointer to the current node when it starts, nd is the argument of the function and should be another node; the one you want to add.
22:47:27 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Couldn't find anything on the internet that implements it themselves. At least, nothing good
22:48:36 <quintopia> you should probably do conductor.next = &nd instead
22:52:05 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Because I am fumbling my way around until it works and when I did that, it stuck.
22:53:40 <quintopia> nd is the actual node, not a pointer
22:54:14 <hppavilion[1]> Now I can't figure out how to access an arbitrary node with #include <list>
22:54:28 <fizzie> It's not necessarily "fine"; I think we're missing quite a lot of context.
22:55:25 <fizzie> I mean, if it's e.g. an automatically allocated object, generally putting pointers at one into a linked list is only useful in rare circumstances.
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06:12:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Silly Emplosions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45800&oldid=45799 * 93.106.77.85 * (+165)
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09:14:40 <olsner> is Viscera Cleanup Detail an esolang?
09:14:49 <olsner> hmm, doesn't seem to be on the wiki
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09:29:51 <fizzie> Sounds like a game name.
09:30:33 <fizzie> Space station janitor simulator, apparently.
09:31:16 <fizzie> Oh no, the trains are late.
09:32:37 <fizzie> I was supposed to be at work at 10 for a training thing. :/
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09:40:17 <fizzie> And I picked the suboptimal train too. (There were two coming at about the same time; one arrived earlier but the other skips a station. I took the earlier one because they kept changing the ETA, but the other arrived just when I went in the first one. It just overtook this one.)
09:45:44 <fizzie> Failing to do the optimal route selection for public transportation is much more annoying than it should, given that the cost of failure is (at least for these routes) usually being somewhere five minutes later than otherwise.
10:15:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dittoslash * New user account
10:18:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Dittoslash]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45801 * Dittoslash * (+79) Created page with "Boopy doopy I'm a person who knows Python. :D [[http://terriblesausage.co.uk]]"
10:20:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Dittoslash]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45802&oldid=45801 * Dittoslash * (-7)
10:21:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Dittoslash]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45803&oldid=45802 * Dittoslash * (-16)
10:40:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Slashist]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45804 * Dittoslash * (+1448) Created page
10:42:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Slashist]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45805&oldid=45804 * Dittoslash * (+60)
10:42:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Slashist]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45806&oldid=45805 * Dittoslash * (+28)
10:43:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45807&oldid=45356 * Dittoslash * (+181) Added Slashist
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12:00:34 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. anything wrong with zemhill?
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12:30:53 <fizzie> It did that thing again where it tries to keep sending JOIN #esoteric all the time.
12:31:04 <shachaf> Really? It seems to me that the answer is probably yes.
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12:31:30 <fizzie> Restarting it fixed it the last time. Maybe a bug in the IRC library.
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13:05:28 <FireFly> Apparently nethack 3.60 was released
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13:48:09 <fizzie> "We've migrated our internal source repository to Git, with plans of providing a publicly available "current maintenance version" in the future."
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14:01:41 <b_jonas> They're basically making leaks official. Or introducing a more open-source development model, if you want to say it nicely.
14:07:35 <\oren\> olsner: I have Viscra cleanup Detail. I don't play it much tho
14:19:44 <mroman> The new operating system.
14:21:06 <mroman> the rational numbers unit
14:25:39 <mroman> what's the limit of 1 + (1 / (1 + (1 / (1 + 1)))) series?
14:27:31 <\oren\> x = 1 + 1 / x => x^2 = x + 1 => x = (sqrt5+1)/2
14:27:40 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 2 1.5 1.66667 1.6 1.625 1.61538 1.61905 1.61765 1.61818 1.61798 1.61806 1.61803 1.61804 1.61803 1.61803 1.61803 1.61803 1.61803 1.61803 1.61803 1.61803 1.61803 1.61803 1.61803 1.61803 1.61803 1.61803 1.61803 1.61803 1.61803 1.61803 1.61803
14:28:53 <mroman> Is there generally something known about n + (n / (n + (n / (n + n)))...
14:29:46 <b_jonas> mroman: isn't that just (n-1)+(sqrt(5)+1)/2 or something like that?
14:30:07 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 14 7.5 7.93333 7.88235 7.88806 7.88742 7.88749 7.88748 7.88748 7.88748 7.88748 7.88748 7.88748 7.88748 7.88748
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14:30:34 <b_jonas> but still, it's something like that
14:30:59 <\oren\> you use the quadratic formula
14:33:11 <\oren\> x = n + n / x => x^2 - nx + n => x = (n +/- sqrt(n^2 - 4n))/(2)
14:33:53 <\oren\> I suppose you use the + for +/- in this case
14:34:39 <mroman> n = 5 would be 5.854101966249685
14:35:02 <\oren\> x = n + n / x => x^2 - nx - n => x = (n +/- sqrt(n^2 + 4n))/(2)
14:36:05 <\oren\> yah that gives the right answer
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15:38:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emoji]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45808 * 174.27.112.221 * (+1818) create page
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19:45:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:HYPotenuser]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45809 * HYPotenuser * (+413) Created page with "Quick dump of some of the esolang ideas I have. Some have been properly considered to varying degrees, others are just vague wisps. Let me know if any interest you. * Tonal ..."
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19:49:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:HYPotenuser]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45810&oldid=45809 * HYPotenuser * (+37)
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20:53:55 <hppavilion[2]> E returns a predicate that accepts a person and returns whether that person is another's enemy. I /think/ I got that right.
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20:54:29 <hppavilion[2]> \oren\: Is that logical statement valid, or did I get it wrong? I think I got it wrong because the inner E returns a predicate and E doesn't accept a predicate, AFAIK
20:56:39 <hppavilion[2]> How about... E(E(m), p) where m is me and E(x) is a list of x's enemies when single-argument and a predicate of whether all the people in its arguments are enemies of each other (if its argument is a list, then it tests for each pair)
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21:05:22 <int-e> hppavilion[2]: why not E(n,m) & E(p,n) -> F(p, m)
21:07:47 <hppavilion[2]> int-e: Oh, mine means that p has to be the enemy of /all/ of p's enemies, or else it doesn't work, so...
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21:15:28 <hppavilion[1]> If magic doesn't exist, and friendship is magic...
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21:34:16 <fizzie> If the enemy of your enemy is your friend, and you have three people that are all enemies towards each other, then they're all also friends with each other.
21:35:55 <myname> it alwo works for any complete enemy graph greater than 2
21:39:03 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: That's a paradox, and is thus forbidden in Comradic Logic. I suspect that, using the logic, you can prove that there can only be two sides in any argument.
21:39:40 <myname> which makes what you are trying to prove an axiom
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23:30:28 <HackEgo> braid theory/Braid theory is the extremely twisted theory of braids.
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23:56:08 <boily> \oren\: he\\oren\. could you add 猿 please?
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00:28:36 <quintopia> appatently satoshi has been found?
00:34:30 <boily> quinthellopiaaaAAAAAAAH!
00:34:37 <boily> satoshi, as in bitcoin satoshi?
00:40:30 <oerjan> b_jonas: as an iwc forum lurker, i'd like to point out that the new "pafizip zioo" also gives evidence for "fi" hth
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00:42:08 <oerjan> my that's a big bitcoin jump
00:43:18 <oerjan> it's approaching year-ago levels
00:44:21 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas as an iwc forum lurker, i'd like to point out that the new "pafizip zioo" also gives evidence for "fi" hth
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00:47:19 <boily> fungot: pafizip zioo fi fnord?
00:47:19 <fungot> boily: is it a mission critical text document with a velvet gloves.
00:47:27 <boily> fungot: looks like so.
00:47:28 <fungot> boily: so this is the same for scourge's other player", a casual shrine to an amazing actor. the film. you're just a run of the mill little psycho girl, a troll caegar a dozen.
00:48:04 <oerjan> fungot: it's droid language, so you should already know it hth
00:48:05 <fungot> oerjan: so just to review, your schemes, convoluted. you are planning a heist in your underground hideout. implement nefarious as you might, you can't out troll me in these like little else, is still just that. a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by
00:48:05 <boily> I didn't know I were a little psycho girl. I always thought I was a hairy man.
00:48:20 <oerjan> boily: that's just how psycho you are
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00:48:46 <boily> there are picture of me crossdressing. maybe I really am a psycho girl.
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00:49:30 <oerjan> fungot: your single linear concept seems a little circular to me.
00:49:30 <fungot> oerjan: he was so much easier to come by lately. must be the connivings of your arch nemesis, betty crocker. on his 13th, 2009, the 13th of april. another day of uneventful but highly satisfying
00:49:47 <boily> oerjan: it can't be circular, it's linear hth
00:50:31 <boily> and another plot twist: orejan's arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. who would've known.
00:50:36 <oerjan> boily: then why is it loopy
00:50:43 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck* ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
00:50:51 <boily> oerjan: hyperdimensional fungot.
00:50:51 <fungot> boily: he is so silly! gross dude!!!
00:51:01 <boily> fungot: oerjan isn't silly.
00:51:01 <fungot> boily: good thing you already know there is mail in the box. and that means the beta might be here too.
00:51:55 <oerjan> boily: hm i didn't know who betty crocker was, and yet a quick google shows fungot is obviously right.
00:51:55 <fungot> oerjan: to the left is that house shape you've seen everything! weaky, is a game construct, i think the only of your kind with this mutant candy-red blood. an outcast. he thinks it's about to be.
00:52:18 <HackEgo> Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
00:52:34 <oerjan> `learn_append oerjan His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
00:52:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'oerjan': Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
00:54:43 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
00:54:54 <boily> no! oerjan's wisdom's longer!
00:55:06 <boily> (but it's not the size that counts, it's the boilywords ^^)
00:56:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45811&oldid=45797 * Luis Mendo * (+982) /* Specification */
00:58:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45812&oldid=45811 * Luis Mendo * (+50) /* Hello, world! */
00:58:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45813&oldid=45812 * Luis Mendo * (+0) /* Compiler */
01:03:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45814&oldid=45813 * Luis Mendo * (+7) /* Specification */
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01:27:14 <boily> hppavellon[1]. what should you do for Smiley...
01:32:04 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
01:32:11 <HackEgo> Roujo is a Java heretic leaning on ungrammatical Haskell. His claim to Canadianness is marred by an unholy portal to China. The treaties suffer, so the cocktail will be postponed. He does not understand shell quoting.
01:33:02 <boily> yup. oerjan seems to be the most wisdomful.
01:36:28 <lifthrasiir> very, very interesting, but of course I cannot be sure
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01:39:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45815&oldid=45814 * Luis Mendo * (-1) /* Specification */
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01:44:22 <izabera> https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/11/ is it cheating to solve it like this? https://arin.ga/GdNbBq/raw
01:45:52 <boily> it's a solution! and if it's considered cheating, metaprogram it!
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01:50:36 <boily> write a program that takes a tree as input and outputs something formatted like what you pasted on aringa.
01:51:02 <lifthrasiir> izabera: gperf for producing an optimal lookup table
01:52:35 <boily> holy fungot. neat.
01:52:35 <fungot> boily: not that it would actually bother pitying you. whatever your adventure throws at you im sure shell, and limbering up for a silly cookie dance. or it will 8e the most powerful adversary you have ever had a physical card for the stack or queue. items can be removed, the queen is a vain. yes, the sun." -mark twain
01:53:17 <izabera> boily: that's more interesting but way overkill <.<
01:56:33 <izabera> (also i managed to set up https correctly, yay)
02:17:28 <lifthrasiir> doesn't seem to look good yet, but well, trying
02:21:03 <boily> quintopia: mouah ah ah. timeshifting!
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04:06:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emoji]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45816&oldid=45808 * 174.27.112.221 * (+97) Add interpreter section
04:06:46 <HackEgo> tswett is livin' it up with the penguins because he's so bad at following directions.
04:07:37 <tswett> fungot: how would you describe me?
04:07:37 <fungot> tswett: enter name. it's a title under the cruxite in the lathe.
04:08:08 <tswett> `learn tswett is livin' it up with the penguins. He's a title under the cruxite in the lathe.
04:08:11 <HackEgo> Learned 'tswett': tswett is livin' it up with the penguins. He's a title under the cruxite in the lathe.
04:08:15 <fungot> tswett: as a veteran of the game in the first place, so he can just button it
04:08:17 <HackEgo> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
04:08:25 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
04:08:37 <HackEgo> rm: it is dangerous to operate recursively on `/' \ rm: use --no-preserve-root to override this failsafe
04:10:04 <zgrep> `run rm -rf --no-preserve-root /
04:10:41 <zgrep> I didn't break it, did I?
04:12:33 <HackEgo> :-( \ (* \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ u8tbl \ u8tbl.c \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
04:13:04 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/ext4/features/meta_bg_resize': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/ext4/features/batched_discard': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/ext4/features/lazy_itable_init': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/cgroup': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/bus/cpu/devices/cpu0': Permission
04:14:28 <HackEgo> :-( \ (* \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ u8tbl \ u8tbl.c \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
04:16:33 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe for the ISN I'm making I should include little widgets like a Neural Calculator and such
04:21:03 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `cat *(* *)*'
04:21:34 <FireFly> `` echo *\(* *\)* | hexdump -C
04:21:35 <HackEgo> 00000000 3a 2d 28 20 03 30 33 28 2a 20 63 6c 6f 73 65 20 |:-( .03(* close | \ 00000010 5c 20 2a 29 03 0a |\ *)..| \ 00000016
04:21:53 <Sgeo__> Did ais523 see the news?
04:22:25 <HackEgo> 0 (* \ wc: *): No such file or directory \ 0 total
04:22:39 <Sgeo__> hppavilion[1], new version of NetHack released
04:22:45 <zgrep> Why is stuff green...
04:22:52 <HackEgo> 0 (* \ wc: *): No such file or directory \ 0 total
04:22:58 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: I don't like them.
04:23:45 <Sgeo__> hppavilion[1], it's been 12 years since the release before yesterday's release.
04:23:51 <tswett> Holy 36d89a3cadcdf269110757df1074b4ef45fe641e.
04:24:03 <fungot> FireFly: be in cahoots with! you guess none the wiser, you board the shuttle. next stop, it's unbecoming
04:24:04 <HackEgo> 0e626652e53e39f29b8aecaca63f2cc6 -
04:25:09 <tswett> `run echo fuck | sha1sum
04:25:10 <HackEgo> f62e5bcda4fae4f82370da0c6f20697b8f8447ef -
04:25:25 <tswett> Well, it's not that one.
04:25:42 <tswett> `run echo -n fuck | sha1sum
04:25:43 <HackEgo> 38d0f91a99c57d189416439ce377ccdcd92639d0 -
04:26:43 <tswett> I need to go to bed in a few moments.
04:27:00 <tswett> But before I do, I think this is an appropriate time to use the "loudly" command.
04:27:02 <fungot> quintopia: though the fact that this is apparently a bull penis, and a variety of interests. you have a passion for really terrible movies. he would just go on and on about it.
04:27:11 <tswett> `loudly HOLY HOTDOGS A NEW NETHACK IS OUT
04:27:13 <HackEgo> HOLY HOTDOGS A NEW NETHACK IS OUT
04:27:34 <tswett> Oh yeah, I remember the bull penis.
04:27:52 * Sgeo__ looks at Desktop Dungeons
04:29:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lodly: not found
04:33:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quietly: not found
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04:45:05 <HackEgo> cat: bin/quietly: No such file or directory
04:45:11 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in inp)
04:46:30 <oerjan> `rainbow a b c d e f g h i j
04:47:23 <oerjan> `` rainbow <<<a b c d e f g h i j
04:47:33 <oerjan> `` rainbow <<<"a b c d e f g h i j"
04:47:45 <oerjan> `` rainbow <<<"a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p"
04:47:46 <HackEgo> a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p
04:48:04 <oerjan> `` rainwords <<<"a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p"
04:48:05 <HackEgo> a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p
04:48:29 <zgrep> `` rainbow <<<"testing 123"
04:48:33 <zgrep> `` rainwords <<<"testing 123"
04:48:46 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/python \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,6,13]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + "%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)] + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w)
04:49:47 <zgrep> `run find / -name '*matrix*'
04:50:18 <HackEgo> find: `/proc/tty/driver': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/2/task/2/fd': Permissi
04:51:18 <zgrep> `` find / -name '*matrix*' 2>/dev/null
04:51:32 <HackEgo> /hackenv/.hg/store/data/wisdom/sparse matrix algorithm.i \ /hackenv/wisdom/sparse matrix algorithm \ /usr/share/gforth/0.7.0/matrix.fs
04:51:53 <zgrep> `cat /hackenv/wisdom/sparse\ matrix\ algo*
04:51:54 <HackEgo> cat: /hackenv/wisdom/sparse\ matrix\ algo*: No such file or directory
04:52:00 <zgrep> `cat /hackenv/wisdom/sparse\ matrix\ algorithm
04:52:01 <HackEgo> cat: /hackenv/wisdom/sparse\ matrix\ algorithm: No such file or directory
04:52:23 <zgrep> `idon'tknowhowtousehackego
04:52:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: idon'tknowhowtousehackego: not found
04:52:31 <oerjan> `cat wisdom/sparse matrix algorithm
04:52:32 <HackEgo> Sparse matrix algorithms are a trivial special case of non-sparse matrix algorithms, by conjugating with the sparsification operation.
04:52:56 <zgrep> This wisdom is lost on me.
04:53:32 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/sparse matrix algorithm
04:53:53 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
04:54:12 <oerjan> `` hg log 'wisdom/sparse matrix algorithm' | grep Summary
04:54:19 <oerjan> `` hg log 'wisdom/sparse matrix algorithm' | grep ummary
04:54:21 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> mv wisdom/sparse{," matrix algorithm"}
04:54:33 <zgrep> `` cat bin/culprits | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' sprunge.us
04:54:36 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current \ Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed \
04:54:44 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/sparse
04:54:44 <zgrep> `` cat bin/culprits | curl --silent -F 'sprunge=<-' sprunge.us
04:54:46 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2.
04:55:16 <oerjan> zgrep: you cannot connect from inside the sandbox
04:55:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/culprits
04:56:16 -!- tromp has joined.
04:56:31 <zgrep> Yep, not understanding that.
04:56:42 <zgrep> Oh. Sort-of getting that.
04:57:41 <HackEgo> hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
04:58:14 <oerjan> it's not very long. it just runs a repository lookup and munges the output a bit.
04:59:14 <oerjan> the part before the | awk is useful if you want to see _what_ they changed.
04:59:35 <oerjan> as in my command above.
05:00:10 <oerjan> the rest just extracts the nicks.
05:00:49 <oerjan> `wget http://google.com/
05:01:05 <HackEgo> --2015-12-09 04:59:56-- http://google.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2. \ connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2015-12-09 04:59:58-- (try: 2) http://google.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2. \ connected. \ Proxy request
05:02:04 <oerjan> i think google's supposed to be on the whitelist, so if that doesn't work then HackEgo's small amount of sandbox web access is completely broken.
05:02:24 <oerjan> but `fetch still works.
05:02:39 <Sgeo__> "Bad guy: Meat Man. Copyright Infringement: Likely"
05:04:54 <HackEgo> bin/culprits:hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs \ bin/undo:hg diff -c "$@" | patch -p1 -R
05:05:07 <Sgeo__> playing the Desktop Dungeon tutorial
05:16:38 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/hosts: No such file or directory
05:16:44 <HackEgo> alternatives \ java-6-openjdk
05:16:59 <zgrep> `ls /etc/alternatives
05:17:01 <HackEgo> appletviewer \ appletviewer.1.gz \ aptitude \ aptitude.8.gz \ aptitude.cs.8.gz \ aptitude.de.8.gz \ aptitude.es.8.gz \ aptitude.fi.8.gz \ aptitude.fr.8.gz \ aptitude.gl.8.gz \ aptitude.it.8.gz \ aptitude.ja.8.gz \ aptitude.pl.8.gz \ awk \ awk.1.gz \ builtins.7.gz \ c++ \ c89 \ c89.1.gz \ c99 \ c99.1.gz \ cc \ cpp \ editor \ editor.1.gz \ ex \ ex.1.
05:17:13 <HackEgo> 05:16:19 up 0 min, 0 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
05:17:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: downtime: not found
05:17:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: reboot: not found
05:17:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sudo: not found
05:17:33 <HackEgo> su: Cannot determine your user name.
05:17:52 <Xe> i probably just crashed it
05:18:03 <HackEgo> :-( \ (* \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ u8tbl \ u8tbl.c \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
05:18:12 <Xe> `killall vi
05:18:15 <HackEgo> Vim: Warning: Output is not to a terminal \ [1;24r[?25h[?8c[?25h[?0c[27m[24m[0m[H[J[?25l[?1c[2;1H[1m[34m~ [3;1H~ [4;1H~
05:18:22 <HackEgo> 2 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ 10 \ 47 \ 49 \ 68 \ 281 \ 292
05:18:26 <Xe> lifthrasiir: hahaha
05:18:28 <HackEgo> error: unsupported SysV option \ \ Usage: \ ps [options] \ \ Try 'ps --help <simple|list|output|threads|misc|all>' \ or 'ps --help <s|l|o|t|m|a>' \ for additional help text. \ \ For more details see ps(1).
05:18:40 <HackEgo> error: unsupported SysV option \ \ Usage: \ ps [options] \ \ Try 'ps --help <simple|list|output|threads|misc|all>' \ or 'ps --help <s|l|o|t|m|a>' \ for additional help text. \ \ For more details see ps(1).
05:18:46 <HackEgo> \ Usage: \ ps [options] \ \ Try 'ps --help <simple|list|output|threads|misc|all>' \ or 'ps --help <s|l|o|t|m|a>' \ for additional help text. \ \ For more details see ps(1).
05:18:47 <HackEgo> warning: bad ps syntax, perhaps a bogus '-'? \ See http://gitorious.org/procps/procps/blobs/master/Documentation/FAQ \ USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TTY STAT START TIME COMMAND \ 0 2 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 05:17 0:00 [kthreadd] \ 0 3 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 05:17 0:00 \_ [ksoftirq
05:19:16 <Xe> `ps -faux | curl -n -F 'f:1=<-' http://ix.io
05:19:17 <HackEgo> error: user name does not exist \ \ Usage: \ ps [options] \ \ Try 'ps --help <simple|list|output|threads|misc|all>' \ or 'ps --help <s|l|o|t|m|a>' \ for additional help text. \ \ For more details see ps(1).
05:19:20 <zgrep> `printf \13\10PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will it work?
05:19:21 <HackEgo> PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will it work?
05:19:39 <Xe> `ps -fax | curl -n -F 'f:1=<-' http://ix.io
05:19:40 <HackEgo> error: must set personality to get -x option \ \ Usage: \ ps [options] \ \ Try 'ps --help <simple|list|output|threads|misc|all>' \ or 'ps --help <s|l|o|t|m|a>' \ for additional help text. \ \ For more details see ps(1).
05:19:43 <lifthrasiir> `printf "%c%cPRIVMSG #esoteric :Will it blend?" 13 10
05:19:44 <HackEgo> "..PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will it blend?" 13 10
05:19:45 <Xe> `ps -fa | curl -n -F 'f:1=<-' http://ix.io
05:19:46 <HackEgo> error: unsupported SysV option \ \ Usage: \ ps [options] \ \ Try 'ps --help <simple|list|output|threads|misc|all>' \ or 'ps --help <s|l|o|t|m|a>' \ for additional help text. \ \ For more details see ps(1).
05:19:50 <zgrep> `printf \0d\0aPRIVMSG #esoteric :Will it work?
05:19:51 <HackEgo> .d.aPRIVMSG #esoteric :Will it work?
05:19:56 <Xe> `ps -a | curl -n -F 'f:1=<-' http://ix.io
05:19:57 <HackEgo> error: unsupported SysV option \ \ Usage: \ ps [options] \ \ Try 'ps --help <simple|list|output|threads|misc|all>' \ or 'ps --help <s|l|o|t|m|a>' \ for additional help text. \ \ For more details see ps(1).
05:20:11 <zgrep> `` ping -c 1 ix.io
05:20:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
05:20:27 -!- \oren\ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
05:20:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dig: not found
05:20:43 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
05:20:53 <HackEgo> --2015-12-09 05:19:44-- http://ix.io/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2. \ connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2015-12-09 05:19:45-- (try: 2) http://ix.io/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2. \ connected. \ Proxy request sent, awa
05:20:56 -!- oren has joined.
05:21:03 <HackEgo> curl: try 'curl --help' or 'curl --manual' for more information
05:21:17 <oren> you can't crash it, it recreates the VM with each command
05:21:35 <zgrep> `touch butwhatifichangesomething
05:21:39 <HackEgo> :-( \ (* \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ butwhatifichangesomething \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ u8tbl \ u8tbl.c \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
05:21:50 <oren> files are retained
05:21:54 <HackEgo> head: error reading `good': Is a directory
05:22:00 <HackEgo> 295 \ 503 \ 544 \ 755 \ 786
05:22:01 <HackEgo> 295 \ 503 \ 544 \ 755 \ 786
05:22:09 <HackEgo> Your friends are strong. Take their help.
05:22:12 <Xe> oren: is it in a docker container?
05:22:17 <HackEgo> cat: good/*: No such file or directory
05:22:21 <HackEgo> Your friends are strong. Take their help. \ Feel wronged? They made a mistake. See things from their side, and forgive them. \ There is a way out. Finding it will be difficult. It may be the hardest thing you've ever done. Find it anyway. \ It takes strength to admit your own weaknesses. \ Empathize. Always empathize.
05:22:29 <oren> Xe: It predates Docker
05:22:33 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ ! \ ? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ benvenuto \ bf \ bienvenido \ bienvenue \ blessyou \ botsnack \ bseen \ buttsnack \ calc \ cAt \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ cc \ cdecl \ c++decl \ chroot
05:22:51 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/: Permission denied
05:23:33 <oren> I don't know when the bot was created
05:23:48 * zgrep recommends that it take an image url from zgrep.org/cats and put it into the channel :P
05:23:51 <oren> maybe sometime in the 2000's?
05:24:07 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
05:24:07 <lifthrasiir> I probably need to make an assembly bot with an (initially) unknown machine
05:24:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mas: not found
05:24:15 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
05:24:24 <lifthrasiir> the goal is to exploit a bug in the VM to escape the sandbox
05:24:26 <HackEgo> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: junk at end of line, first unrecognized character is `-' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: junk at end of line, first unrecognized character is `-'
05:25:19 -!- oren has changed nick to \oren\.
05:25:21 <HackEgo> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: no such instruction: `aoeu' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: no such instruction: `aoeu'
05:25:26 <HackEgo> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: number of operands mismatch for `mov' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: number of operands mismatch for `mov'
05:25:49 <zgrep> Seems quite promising, if I actually knew asm.
05:31:19 <HackEgo> 0: eb 03 jmp 0x5 \ 2: cd 80 int 0x80
05:31:35 <HackEgo> 0: f0 0f c7 0c 25 00 00 00 00 lock cmpxchg8b 0x0
05:31:41 <HackEgo> 0: eb 00 jmp 0x2 \ 2: cd 80 int 0x80
05:31:53 <lifthrasiir> guess it's gas with .intel_syntax by default
05:32:46 <oerjan> `! asm jmp $+5; int 0x80
05:33:07 <HackEgo> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: junk `(rip)' after expression \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: junk `(rip)' after expression
05:33:28 <oerjan> try `! asm if you want to actually run some. i don't know asm myself alas.
05:33:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: !asm: not found
05:34:25 <Sgeo__> tswett, how does your transconal definition compare with my definition of |a+b@| = sqrt(a^2 - b^2) if a^2 - b^2 is positive, i*sqrt(a^2 - b^2) otherwise
05:34:44 <Sgeo__> I don't actually remember your definition at all :(
05:34:55 <Sgeo__> Other than it describes more than a+b@ iirc
05:34:56 <oerjan> i assume that was an infloop that timed out.
05:37:19 <oerjan> beret guy strikes again
05:41:36 <HackEgo> :-( \ (* \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ butwhatifichangesomething \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ u8tbl \ u8tbl.c \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
05:42:24 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/u8tbl.c
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05:52:51 <oerjan> he made it to make unicode tables
05:56:46 <FireFly> I misread and thought the argv[2] was the count, not the end
05:59:15 * oerjan wonders if we've seen the guy in the last panel of girl genius before...
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06:02:11 <oerjan> or the diplomat lady fwiw
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06:04:44 <adu> hi hppavilion[1]
06:06:57 <hppavilion[1]> (Your name lends itself very well to reverse esalutations at the cost of being impossible to form an hesso out of)
06:10:03 <adu> esalutations?
06:10:15 <adu> adu = adieu?
06:10:19 <adu> that is false!
06:10:31 <adu> and I can prove it!
06:10:42 * adu thinks therefore /me am
06:11:49 <adu> also, "adu" is short for "andydude" it's not supposed to be a french phrase, or an arabic name (do you know how many times i've wanted to punch people who called me abu?)
06:13:03 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what's a hesso?
06:17:20 <adu> that's a lot of hellos
06:17:27 <adu> I can't take it
06:30:01 <hppavilion[1]> (And your name is still prounounced roughly like "adieu" I assume, if the "du" is pronounced like the beginning of "dude")
06:30:50 <adu> hppavilion[1]: yup
06:31:11 <hppavilion[1]> So it's close enough to "adieu" to serve as a goodbye
06:31:38 <hppavilion[1]> adu: So I'm making a social network. Incrementally.
06:31:55 <adu> but my name should be a synonym for "amazing coder", not "good bye"
06:32:10 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, I'm developing it step-by-step and posting code as I go
06:33:12 <adu> that's like saying "I want my compiler to dig inside my brain to know what I want, without the brain surgery"
06:33:25 <adu> it's like wanting to have your cake, and eat it too
06:34:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Adwim).
06:34:41 <adu> "hppavilion[1]: adu: Why can't we have both?"
06:34:57 <adu> don't worry about me
06:35:03 <adu> I'm just B.S.ing
06:35:16 <hppavilion[1]> But you /can/ have your cake and eat it too if you have infinite cake and take into account Hilbert's Paradox of the Grand Hotel
06:35:52 <hppavilion[1]> Which is applicable here because names are reusable, according to quantum physics and brain surgery, as well as basic logic.
06:36:59 <adu> me does not know about Quantum Rocket Surgery
06:37:06 <hppavilion[1]> Unless you want it to be. But it doesn't /have/ to be QRS.
06:37:28 <hppavilion[1]> adu: So what do you think about my Incremental Social Network idea?
06:44:01 <hppavilion[1]> How about a language where any text file is acceptable and does something based on /all/ the content? For example, each word is hashed then looked up in a hash table before execution
06:44:24 <hppavilion[1]> Not a highly-advanced hash either; only ~256 possible outputs or something
06:46:50 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I don't like it
06:50:27 <hppavilion[1]> A programming language that ONLY executes the combining diacritics
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07:16:23 <Sgeo__> So, Desktop Dungeons looks like a single-player resource management game
07:16:34 <Sgeo__> So getting good at that stuff might help me with Prismata and Dota 2?
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09:33:10 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, I was thinking about that, but you don't have enough precision. even if < zioo > is a second and a minute is 64 of those, "fi" could stand for any of B, C, D in < pafizip zioo > if C3PO rounds in the approperiate direction.
09:34:09 <b_jonas> olsner: it proves that "fi" is a digit, but it doesn't prove its value.
09:34:50 <b_jonas> oerjan: and I'm not convinced about these 64 second minutes anyway.
09:46:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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10:17:18 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: wow... have you started to add hangul syllables?
10:17:47 <b_jonas> Sure, I can see it's only a few, but still
10:17:53 <lifthrasiir> it can be done with a fewer number of sets, so I will start small and refine later
10:18:11 <lifthrasiir> (the minimal set would be 3 initials, 1 medial, 1 final)
10:18:58 <lifthrasiir> wait, 6 initials: (no final, has final) * (left, left-top, top)
10:19:37 <lifthrasiir> which gives (19*6 + 21*2 + 27) = 183 glyphs initially
10:20:05 <lifthrasiir> I've already worked on the combinatoric description of multiple glyphs
10:20:06 <b_jonas> no, I think you can actually make do with just 5 sets of initials, because you can use the same shape for left-top without final as for left with final.
10:20:35 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: however, drawing all this in a 16x16 grid will be a difficult challenge. I don't know how readable you can get it.
10:20:39 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: the extremely minimal font would use 1-1-1 sets :) (but I wanted to keep the square shape, thus 6-2-1)
10:21:16 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: no really, aren't those two roughly the same size so you can use the same shape?
10:22:39 <lifthrasiir> I should also work on various compatibility problems
10:29:25 <b_jonas> I'll be interested if you can get it right. Font encodings are tricky and complicated.
10:32:19 <mroman> are there binary functions that are involutions?
10:32:41 <mroman> or to be more specific useful binary functions that are involutions
10:32:47 <mroman> where binary means they take two arguments
10:35:08 <FireFly> at least it's "left involutory" and "right involutory" in the sense that binding either operand gives an involutory unary function
10:35:17 <mroman> I'm not even sure how you define involutions for f(x,y)
10:35:24 <mroman> f(f(x,y)) is missing an argumen obviously
10:35:32 <mroman> but yes, XOR with a fixed operand is an involution.
10:35:53 <mroman> maybe f(x,y) == f(f(x,y),f(y,x))?
10:35:58 <FireFly> - is an involution if you bind the left operand
10:36:30 <FireFly> I think the definition "decays into an involutory function if you bind one argumnt" is a useful definition
10:36:54 <FireFly> that's the property that things like xorswap or xor-linked lists use, unless I'm mistaken
10:37:05 <FireFly> Would be interesting to know if there's more like them
10:37:41 <mroman> ", i.e. every operator is self-inverse" -- esowiki
10:38:00 <mroman> bitwise not, ^(-1), and negation
10:38:18 <mroman> although ^(-1) only makes sense for floats
10:38:32 <mroman> otherwise bitwise not, and negation
10:38:48 <FireFly> multiplicative inverse makes plenty sense for rationals
10:39:05 <mroman> I'm thinking of a brainfuck with +- replaced with !-
10:39:08 <mroman> where ! is bitwise not
10:40:46 <FireFly> so there's xor-linked lists, and slightly more esoterically there's subtraction-linked lists, but I guess in principle division-linked lists would work just as well as long as no pointers are NULL and you somehow represent the pointers as rationals
10:40:47 <mroman> you can use -(!(-(! to increment
10:41:10 <FireFly> I can't imagine any useful use of division-linked lists though
10:41:59 <FireFly> rationals, or in some other way so that x / (x / y) == y
10:42:09 <FireFly> which of course wouldn't work with truncating integer division
10:43:27 <FireFly> That's correct, and occasionally useful in codegolf
10:43:58 <FireFly> x/-~y is shorter than x/(y+1)
11:11:00 <Taneb> FireFly: it would require a system with continuous memory
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11:14:57 <Taneb> Which is somewhat uncommon
11:15:10 <Taneb> Although certainly on-topic in here
11:22:07 <FireFly> You could just map half the memory to the positive integers and the other half to the reciprocal of the positive integers, I think
11:22:19 <FireFly> that way it's still discrete
11:31:48 <FireFly> I don't know what I was thinking
11:32:03 <FireFly> Yeah, the memory would be continuous I suppose
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11:48:51 <Taneb> Just caught up on Advent of Code! :D
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12:05:48 <nchambers> luckily I went to bed 10 minutes before 9 dropped so last night I was caught up again
12:05:59 <Taneb> What time zone are you in?
12:06:50 <Taneb> So I'm sure as hell not staying up until 5 am just to see the next challenge
12:07:17 <nchambers> :D yeah its not that worth it to be on the leader board
12:21:35 <boily> slowly trudging my way through it. still at day 6.
12:21:50 <boily> Tanelle. I will catch up on you one day!
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12:34:39 <tswett> Sgeo__: I don't really remember my definition either.
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15:02:29 <mroman> someone commented on tanebs lecture about esolangs
15:02:43 <mroman> and it's not a very nice comment as youtube comments tend not to be nice
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17:24:54 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: I've cleared some compatibility problems, they should be now usable both in Windows and OS X
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18:10:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Seriously]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45817&oldid=45746 * Quintopia * (+5) formatting
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18:29:18 <hppavilion[1]> OK, for some reason getNode() isn't working on my linked list. Can't tell what's wrong with it, but it seems to hang forever.
18:29:56 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically just a FOR loop that goes to the next item on the list repeatedly until it either reaches the end or has gone far enough
18:30:31 <hppavilion[1]> for(long nd=0; nd<i; nd++){...} (where i is a long representing what part of the list you want to go to)
18:31:25 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, maybe it's a null termination error. THAT could be it, but I assumed C++'s builtin strings would just handle that for me
18:52:36 <lifthrasiir> yeah, the initial hangul syllable support landed
18:52:55 <lifthrasiir> it's somehow usable, though I probably need to tweak that a lot
18:57:08 <nchambers> <mroman> someone commented on tanebs lecture about esolangs ← link?
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21:19:34 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: wait, what was the url of your preview page?
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21:24:53 <b_jonas> aha, it was https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.html and https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison
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21:29:38 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: I suggest that you try rendering some real Korean text in this (possibly add punctuation characters necessary for that first) and try to see how nice and readable it looks
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22:53:56 <HackEgo> vorpal/Vorpal is really boring. Seriously, you have no idea.
22:54:06 <boily> 20 seconds. I guess that's a new record.
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23:03:21 <HackEgo> transformer/A transformer is one who used to trans, but no longer does.
23:03:35 <HackEgo> A translater is one who transes a long time after the fact.
23:04:00 -!- lleu has quit (Read error: No route to host).
23:07:26 <HackEgo> raii/RAII means you allocate in the constructor and deallocate in the destructor. There is no 'initializer' involved.
23:07:34 <HackEgo> radiohead/radiohead is "rock music"
23:07:53 <HackEgo> famicom/Famicom is a famous sitcom from Japan.
23:08:00 <HackEgo> welcome.sv/Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för esoterisk programmeringsspråksdesign och -driftsättning! För mer information, se vår wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på EFnet eller DALnet.)
23:08:11 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:08:18 <HackEgo> .doorstop/You do not have the clearance necessary to view this entry.
23:08:36 <Taneb> I should get to bed...
23:08:40 <Taneb> I'm going to Italy tomorrow!
23:08:57 <boily> Tanelle. where will you be italing?
23:09:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ignorance: not found
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23:09:26 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom -name "*$(echo "$1" | lowercase)*" -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
23:09:43 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
23:11:27 <HackEgo> noooooodl is the correct spelling
23:15:11 <HackEgo> fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
23:15:48 <Taneb> (I needed that for another channel)
23:16:13 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas afaiu the typo was corrected from something that means _exactly_ 43*60 (there is no final 0, so it's not rounded) to something that _can_ mean exactly 43*64. you may consider that too circumstantial but it's pretty obvious what happened there.
23:16:54 <Taneb> boily, I imagine you, by the way, as some guy probably in his late twenties or early thirties, weilding a 20 foot tall pole with ribbons on it as a weapon
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23:18:23 <boily> I'm indeed some guy in his second half of the twenties.
23:20:31 <zgrep> You're a time traveler.
23:21:07 <tswett> A maple maypole, mind.
23:21:49 <tswett> Not, like, one of those stupid cherry maypoles.
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23:26:34 <boily> tswellott. nothing but authentic maple mapole.
23:39:04 <tswett> So, I wonder what kind of axiom could be added to primitive recursive arithmetic in order to make it able to do transfinite induction up to epsilon_0 and beyond.
23:39:26 * zgrep wonders what the world would be like if zgrep understood such things
23:39:49 * boily 's eyes glazeth over like a tim hortons donut
23:41:18 <tswett> How do you even talk about ordinal numbers in PRA, anyway?
23:44:17 <tswett> I mean, I guess you could pick an ordinal notation and define "ordinal number" as meaning something in that notation.
23:44:54 <tswett> But I don't think PRA can express the concept of well-orderedness.
23:46:52 <tswett> But they say that PRA can do transfinite induction for ordinals less than epsilon_0.
23:47:38 -!- tswett has set topic: The international hub for esoteric beverage design and deployment. | /ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
23:49:15 <boily> we're up to beverages? do they include Fentimans?
23:52:51 <tswett> Well, are those beverages?
23:53:51 <boily> they are quite nice bottled beverages, incidentally from Hexham.
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23:57:52 <boily> hppavellon[1]. what's your favourite beverage?
23:57:58 <tswett> I know Hexham from "Battle for Wesnoth".
23:58:15 <boily> Hexham is one of the world's two Luminaries.
00:05:29 <hppavilion[1]> boily: That's a tough question. Water where there's more ice than liquid water perhaps?
00:06:06 <hppavilion[1]> I don't like soda, and if you were on at the time you'd know I'm too young to consume alcohol legally in America, so my options are limited to water and chocolate milk, really.
00:06:24 <coppro> boily: what's the other?
00:07:38 <boily> hppavilion[1]: coffee, tea, yerba mate, kombucha, kvass, mango lassi?
00:08:01 <boily> chelloppro. I'm still thinking about it. probably fungotland.
00:08:01 <fungot> boily: be in cahoots with! you guess none the wiser, you board the shuttle. next stop, it's unbecoming these movies are great. you don't care what the consequences. they allude to other things as well?
00:08:09 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Don't like coffee, not british, don't know what the rest of thoe are (though I can guess that the last one contains Mangos xD)
00:09:07 <boily> a lassi is a yogurty drink.
00:15:56 <pikhq> Mango lassi is pretty good.
00:17:53 <boily> pikhelloq. any beveragey preferences?
00:25:00 <tswett> Is a lassi similar to irssi?
00:27:14 <\oren\> konboilyha, quintossupia, tswello, hippavilion[1]!!!!
00:28:55 <\oren\> screw it. ni hao, pikhq
00:30:01 <boily> quintopia: I never tried horchata nor glogg. are they good?
00:31:36 <pikhq> boily: I like coffee, I like beer, I like tea, I like yerba, I like mango lassi, I like soda...
00:31:41 <pikhq> My fav soda is Dr Pepper.
00:32:49 <tswett> Ooh, I like boily's greeting.
00:37:55 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: Wow, you added Armenian already!
00:40:54 <boily> lifthellorasiir. do you have a link to your font?
00:45:26 <\oren\> boily: lifthrasiir's font is at https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.html
00:46:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[COW]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45818&oldid=40934 * PixelToast * (+3593) Added instructions and hello world code
00:46:18 <^v> my first contribution to the wiki \o/
00:53:59 <boily> (or is it hellov?)
00:54:21 <hppavilion[1]> You know what an awesome way to annoy other mathematicians would be?
00:55:00 <hppavilion[1]> Write "(modulus ∞)" after every formula that isn't "(modulus <n>)"
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00:56:19 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: that was the next alphabet after Cyrillic :p
00:56:33 <lifthrasiir> and my tear was shed when I saw the Armenian Eternity Sign
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01:03:08 <\oren\> ha. \(\textrm{modulo}\;\infty\)
01:03:47 <tswett> Congruent mod infinity. I like it.
01:04:57 <lifthrasiir> tswett: can be an actually useful concept when you have a cardinal or ordinal number :p
01:13:19 <boily> what's an abita about?
01:16:51 <oerjan> boily: abita this and abita that
01:19:54 <boily> sorry, was midway through supper.
01:20:08 * boily flexes, practices a few swings
01:20:42 * oerjan sails 30 m through the air
01:21:08 <boily> a perfectly parabolical tragectory.
01:39:24 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
01:39:29 <boily> a fungotting newt killed me.
01:39:29 <fungot> boily: only one of the previously mentioned it is your birthday. a number of cakes are scattered about your room. you of course it was a nasty pair of trick! he has to go on crazy.
01:39:50 <boily> fungot: my birthday is in some days.
01:39:50 <fungot> boily: that happens, right. the old things i've been angry about.
01:39:58 <boily> fungot: once per year.
01:39:58 <fungot> boily: a young man stands in his bedroom.
01:40:04 <boily> fungot: I'm sitting.
01:41:19 <fungot> zgrep: you you might be here too. minus 5 build a way up the echeladder a while.
01:46:09 <quintopia> oerjan: I be to this I be to that?
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02:17:50 <lifthrasiir> just started using Unison as a terminal font.
02:18:25 <lifthrasiir> not that bad, except that it does not have a fine-tuned bitmap glyph in smaller size
02:19:55 <Phantom_Hoover> was there a conversation in here where people figured out that recent spectral gap uncomputability result yet
02:20:08 <Phantom_Hoover> because these guys are making some p. dubious claims about axiomatic independence
02:23:19 <Phantom_Hoover> they seem to construct a universal wang tiling in the appropriate context, but that doesn't give you independence... right?
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02:32:58 * oerjan declares this question over his head
02:34:29 <oerjan> oh, new shtetl optimized post
02:38:58 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: you have it in ttf?
02:39:29 <lifthrasiir> https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/blob/gh-pages/unison.ttf
02:40:09 <lifthrasiir> it is not optimized at all, have some performance problem (due to a large number of composite glyphs I think)
02:41:13 <\oren\> what't the native size?
02:41:58 <\oren\> ah ok, then I don't need to adjust the size
02:41:59 <lifthrasiir> it does not have a bitmap info (yet), so subpixel rendering is up to the rendering engine
02:42:25 <lifthrasiir> in my terminal (PuTTY) the half-filled pixel seems to be too bright
02:42:45 <lifthrasiir> ultimately a proper hinting and/or bitmap data should be added to solve that
02:42:57 <\oren\> I'm using a variant of putty
02:45:31 <HackEgo> bash: u8tbl: command not found
02:45:45 <HackEgo> ¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬®¯ \ °±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ \ ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏ \ ÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞß \ àáâãäåæçèéêëìíîï \ ðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ \ Ā
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02:46:39 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x100 0x17f
02:46:40 <HackEgo> ĀāĂ㥹ĆćĈĉĊċČčĎď \ ĐđĒēĔĕĖėĘęĚěĜĝĞğ \ ĠġĢģĤĥĦħĨĩĪīĬĭĮį \ İıIJijĴĵĶķĸĹĺĻļĽľĿ \ ŀŁłŃńŅņŇňʼnŊŋŌōŎŏ \ ŐőŒœŔŕŖŗŘřŚśŜŝŞş \ ŠšŢţŤťŦŧŨũŪūŬŭŮů \ ŰűŲųŴŵŶŷŸŹźŻżŽžſ
02:48:18 <oerjan> `` mv u8tbl bin; mv u8tbl.c src
02:50:32 <HackEgo> bash: utf8tbl: command not found
02:52:58 <hppavilion[1]> Why does a cubic function never actually loop back down when I graph it?
02:53:12 <hppavilion[1]> It appears to flatten out in the middle before going up, but it never dips
02:55:29 <oerjan> well if its derivative never crosses zero, that would happen
02:56:24 <oerjan> but x^3 - C x for C > 0 will
02:57:46 <oerjan> (derivative being 3*x^2 - C)
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03:29:52 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: those look halfwidth to me
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03:31:45 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/sjdjs.png
03:41:25 <\oren\> i also updated my font
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04:10:18 <hppavilion[1]> If we can define algebras, can we define trigonometries?
04:10:38 <hppavilion[1]> I'd like to see Kleene Trig so I can figure out what sin("walrus") is
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04:13:33 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Have any idea how I could go about doing that?
04:13:54 <hppavilion[1]> (Oh, and in the case of sin("walrus"), we're dealing with the ASCIIbet)
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04:25:10 <hppavilion[1]> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Circle-trig6.svg
04:25:36 <hppavilion[1]> And that doesn't take into account a..., ...h, and a...h
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04:27:24 <hppavilion[1]> What happens if we use rectangles instead of right triangles?
04:35:41 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh. Why doesn't math support ALL the trig functions? xD
04:43:18 <oerjan> mainly because everything beyond sin, cos, and arctan can be easily rewritten in terms of those
04:43:59 <oerjan> iirc sec x is just 1 / cos x for example
04:44:31 <oerjan> (we didn't even learn those in high school afair)
04:49:20 <shachaf> I got the vague impression those were only used in the US these days.
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04:53:24 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: yeah, same to me (the eterenity signs I meant)
04:53:35 <lifthrasiir> not sure but probably PuTTY has its own wcwidth impl?
04:54:18 <lifthrasiir> I seriously don't like the wcwidth approach at all
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05:14:27 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Is there a place where I can find a table of those definitions?
05:26:58 <oerjan> atan is what you need for the inverses.
05:27:02 <hppavilion[1]> And would I be right to assume you just divide by the inverse to get the inverse of the derived function?
05:28:08 * oerjan seems to have half forgotten the rule for differentiating inverses
05:28:34 <oerjan> f(g(x)) = x gives g'(x)*f'(g(x)) = 1
05:29:23 <oerjan> so (f^-1)'(x) = 1/f'(f^-1(x))
05:30:14 <oerjan> the inverse of the derived function may not be that easy.
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08:57:04 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: ise the power series
08:59:13 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: "I'd like to see Kleene Trig so I can figure out what sin("walrus") is"
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09:04:12 <b_jonas> \oren\: for your font samples, maybe you should separate the sample texts to a different page from the characters, and then add Japanese sample text
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09:04:57 <b_jonas> \oren\: and I'd also like to see sample text of serbian or similar
09:05:05 <b_jonas> (that is, serbian or macedonian mostly)
09:05:26 <b_jonas> serbian cyrillic or macedonian
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09:16:24 <b_jonas> \oren\: more about your font. it seems to me as if the deseret letter es ("𐐝" and "𐑅") is mirrored from how it should look like
09:18:13 <b_jonas> \oren\: also, in the demo page, I think it would be better if the deseret letters were presented so that the capital letters take up only two lines, not two and a half, and then the small letters take up two lines in the same arrangement
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09:22:24 <b_jonas> (I don't much like Deseret, but if you have it in your font, do it properly.)
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09:35:02 <b_jonas> Anyway, even though there's still many things to be done, I declare my project of moving to the new apartment a success in easy mode.
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11:41:00 <HackEgo> l/L is far too short to be a village in Wales.
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12:43:07 <fizzie> Very meta; this spam email claims "Your account was detected spam activities and will be fully blocked" (sic), and includes a very spammy-looking "Re-activate now" link into masseyclarkfischer.com/upload/wp-serv/[random garbage].php.
12:47:49 <fizzie> NOTE: Failure to respond to this message, your account will be deactivated from the database.
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12:49:27 <int-e> fizzie: that's how you know it's serious
12:50:58 <int-e> today's been boring on the spam front for me; all I got was an attachment: payment form authentification.rar
12:52:08 <int-e> been a while since I saw a rar file
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12:52:41 <fizzie> I also got a lot of "find people to date" spam that was in Swedish, over the last week or two, though now it seems to have dried up.
12:52:57 <fizzie> There are some copy_invoice_29845318
12:53:11 <fizzie> Er, copy_invoice_NNNNNNNN.zip's, is what I meant to say.
12:53:22 <nchambers> I always just get the generic ones :L
12:53:26 <fizzie> The dreaded backspace/enter conflict hit again.
12:53:43 <fizzie> "This e-mail is pursuant to your contract with Foreman&Clark Ltd. for ourservices date November 15, 2015 for the amount of $5,487."
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12:54:50 <fizzie> That was from "Morton Fitzpatrick, Sales Manager". There's another message sent few hours later naming the same company but an amount of $5,633, sent by "Ulysses Small, Sales Manager".
12:55:01 <fizzie> They've got a lot of Sales Managers at Foreman & Clark Ltd.
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13:10:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minsky machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45819&oldid=15064 * Ais523 * (+39) /* See also */ +[[Portable Minsky Machine Notation]] (which hopefully won't stay red for long)
13:12:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portable Minsky Machine Notation]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45820 * Ais523 * (+6306) Minsky machines are something I discuss a lot (especially recently), and are a well-known and useful system for TCness proofs; it's about time they had the extra practical stuff (notation, etc.) to make them an actual language
13:13:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portable Minsky Machine Notation]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45821&oldid=45820 * Ais523 * (+0) typo
13:13:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portable Minsky Machine Notation]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45822&oldid=45821 * Ais523 * (+0) apparently I mentally pronounce hyphens and spaces the same way
13:14:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45823&oldid=45750 * Ais523 * (+39) /* P */ +[[Portable Minsky Machine Notation]]
13:15:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45824&oldid=45751 * Ais523 * (+38) +1
13:20:11 <ais523> fwiw, if you see me create a language page with neither "implemented" nor "unimplemented" on it
13:20:22 <ais523> it's because an implementation exists but possibly should never be exposed to the public
13:21:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kangaroo]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45825 * Ais523 * (+7655) another language I found lying around as a result of [[The Amnesiac From Minsk]] experiments; I'm pretty sure you can compile this one into level 3, but don't have more than a proof sketch yet
13:23:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45826&oldid=45823 * Ais523 * (+15) /* K */ +[[Kangaroo]]
13:24:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45827&oldid=45824 * Ais523 * (+14) +1
13:24:16 <ais523> b_jonas: so wrt your comment a while back about needing to be able to actually run esolangs
13:24:34 <ais523> my current goal is to write a PMMN compiler that's fast enough to run an Underlambda interp that's written in PMMN
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13:25:07 <ais523> <ais523> my current goal is to write a PMMN compiler that's fast enough to run an Underlambda interp that's written in PMMN
13:25:13 <ais523> also to write an Underlambda interp in PMMN
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13:32:18 <ais523> nchambers: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Portable_Minsky_Machine_Notation
13:32:30 <ais523> i.e. basically minsky machines with actual syntax, rather than being a mathematical conceptualization
13:47:39 <ais523> actually I'm on my second attempt now, once I realised that using single static assignment would solve a lot of problems (while introducing new ones)
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17:05:10 <vanila> has anyone read this new quantum mechanical undecidability result?
17:06:07 <vanila> http://phys.org/news/2015-12-quantum-physics-problem-unsolvable-godel.html
17:22:10 <APic> Is there a Hello-World-Program in Malbolge yet with correct Caps?
17:22:38 <APic> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Hello_world/Text
17:22:59 <APic> Ok, not mixed CAPS
17:24:12 <b_jonas> APic: I think there is. have you looked at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge ?
17:25:33 <APic> http://acooke.org/malbolge.html is the one with mixed Case which i remembered
17:26:40 <APic> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Programming_Tasks and http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Simple shall allow me to write my own
17:46:06 <b_jonas> If I see a compiler error message in a bug report, and recognize that it's probably from clang, does that mean I'm programming C too much?
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18:18:56 <b_jonas> fungot, do you like butterflies?
18:18:56 <fungot> b_jonas: of apocalypse your thoughts on these developments in your gamefaqs walkthrough/ journal. it can only be a moment. it's a pretty sweet weapon with outstanding juice windfall
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19:02:58 <lifthrasiir> I've eliminated many intermediate glyphs that are redundant in the truetype font
19:03:01 <hppavilion1> I have given up the C++ implementation of W'' for now and am just implementing it in Python
19:04:24 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: as in, automatically?
19:05:24 <lifthrasiir> unison.ttf: 733K -> 654K, unison.woff2: 60K -> 46K
19:05:42 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: will you draw the punctuation characters required for Korean, and then render samples of actual Korean text with the font, so that people can judge aesthetics and readability more than from just the list of characters?
19:06:09 <hppavilion1> It's equivalent to "`BACK_ROT_LONG_FAR" in W''
19:06:49 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: hmm, would UDHR be enough? (as in http://unicode.org/udhr/ )
19:09:04 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: maybe? I don't know, I don't read Korean.
19:10:58 <b_jonas> I also don't know how many punctuation characters you need for typical texts. I assume you need the dot and the comma, but I don't know how much else.
19:11:21 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: Korean text generally uses same punctuations as western scripts.
19:11:39 <b_jonas> what? doesn't it use Japanese punctuation marks?
19:11:46 <b_jonas> how would those fit in a grid?
19:12:20 <b_jonas> I sort of have the impression that Korean has basically the same grammar as Japenese
19:13:03 <lifthrasiir> that's approximately correct, but Korean writing is much more similar to English writing in general
19:13:42 <b_jonas> Similar in what ways? That there are letters that correspond to pronunciation more or less, as opposed to half of the text being written in kanji?
19:15:06 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: words are separated by spaces, (half-width) period, comma, quotes, excl. mark, ques. mark is in common use (ideographic punctutations were used from time to time but almost extinct nowadays)
19:15:32 <lifthrasiir> you can, though, say that there are some unique punctuations like middle dots in Korean writing
19:15:48 <b_jonas> Sure, European languages have lots of unique punctuation too.
19:16:16 <b_jonas> And different rules for the common punctuation too.
19:16:58 <lifthrasiir> anyway, I'm using it as a terminal font at work
19:17:20 <lifthrasiir> and have fixed some glyphs yesterday in response to that
19:17:29 <b_jonas> What do you have in the terminals? Code, English text, Korean text, text in other languages?
19:18:04 <lifthrasiir> thus code, English text and Korean text are expected
19:24:09 <b_jonas> non-syllables? as in kanjis?
19:24:23 <b_jonas> I thought those were rarely used these days
19:25:11 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: well, jamos by themselves are used like acronyms or so
19:25:31 <lifthrasiir> of course, they should be common in the IRC log
19:25:51 <b_jonas> so they're like syllables but are missing the medial or the initial?
19:26:14 <lifthrasiir> maybe the abbreviation should be a better description
19:26:25 <lifthrasiir> the actual pronunciation is not set in stone
19:26:46 <b_jonas> how many of these are there?
19:27:46 <b_jonas> by the way, have you drawn all the syllables in modern use? the set seemed complete enough to me, but I wouldn't have noticed if some were missing
19:28:00 <lifthrasiir> 19 initials, 21 medials, 27 finals make about 50 of them (without duplicates)
19:28:12 <lifthrasiir> yeah, 11,172 syllables in the modern Hangul
19:28:38 <lifthrasiir> the ancient Hangul in the precomposed form would fill the entire Unicode planes
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19:36:42 <hppavilion1> Are there elliptic equivalents of the trigonometric functions? e.g. sine(x) (not to be confused with the sine of x, sine is elliptical sine by analogue to sinh)
19:39:12 <hppavilion1> (Is that a thing? If superelliptical geometry can be a thing, then square geometry is definitely a thing...)
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19:44:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcome.es: not found
19:44:41 <mauris> that isn't the command, is it
19:45:41 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:46:21 <mauris> nah, the one aimed at spanish users who stumble in here
19:46:26 <hernandes> my name is:yorhelsing soto later 10 hablo en ingles pero no mucho
19:46:41 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
19:47:50 <mauris> la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español, hernandes! lo siento
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19:48:52 <hppavilion1> mauris: Out of curiosity, what are the spanish-speaking users who stumble in here expecting?
19:49:06 <mauris> hppavilion1: the channel name starts with "#es"
19:49:39 <mauris> hernandes1 thinks it means "español", but it does not
19:49:49 <Xe> hablamos japones
19:50:12 <mauris> (we really need a more descriptive `bienvenido, but i don't speak spanish...)
19:50:16 <Xe> mi espanol estas mierdo
19:51:20 <hppavilion1> mauris: Should we make a `noespanole command (no squiggly because most of us don't have that on our keyboards) that explains that this channel is not what they're looking for
19:51:25 <Xe> doutashimasuka?
19:51:45 <Xe> o genki desuka?
19:51:52 <hppavilion1> (They might be looking for it, but it would also note that few of us actually speak spanish)
19:52:53 <Xe> hernandes1: hablo el arte de su puta madre una mula
19:52:55 <mauris> hernandes1: Voy a tratar de aclarar a través de Google Translate. Esto no es una sala de chat en español. Tal vez trate de hacer en # ubuntu-es.
19:54:36 <mauris> hernandes1: no están hablando de ti :) pero aquí nadie habla español
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19:55:09 <mauris> whew thank you google translate
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19:55:28 <hppavilion1> hernandes: Pocos de nosotros habla español y esto es un canal de programación; probable es que usted está buscando algún otro canal. Lo lamento.
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19:56:33 <hppavilion1> hernandes: Pocos de nosotros habla español y esto es un canal de programación; probable es que usted está buscando algún otro canal. Lo lamento.
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21:21:46 <FireFly> `` find -type f -exec grep 'irc\.dal\.net' {} \;
21:22:10 <FireFly> wait, that's not even in the message
21:22:22 <FireFly> `` find -type f -exec grep DALnet {} \;
21:23:44 <FireFly> `` for f in bin/* wisdom/*; grep -q DALnet "$f" && echo "$f"; done
21:23:45 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `grep' \ bash: -c: line 0: `for f in bin/* wisdom/*; grep -q DALnet "$f" && echo "$f"; done'
21:23:54 <FireFly> `` for f in bin/* wisdom/*; do grep -q DALnet "$f" && echo "$f"; done
21:24:26 <HackEgo> wisdom/esoteric \ grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory
21:24:51 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
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21:24:58 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
21:25:06 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:25:19 <FireFly> now why wouldn't it find that one too
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21:27:24 <olsner> `` find / -type f -exec grep DALnet {} \;
21:27:55 <HackEgo> grep: /sys/bus/cpu/uevent: Permission denied \ grep: /sys/bus/cpu/drivers_probe: Permission denied \ grep: /sys/bus/clocksource/uevent: Permission denied \ grep: /sys/bus/clocksource/drivers_probe: Permission denied \ grep: /sys/bus/workqueue/uevent: Permission denied \ grep: /sys/bus/workqueue/drivers_probe: Permission denied \ grep: /sys/bus/plat
21:28:21 <olsner> well, I got some output at least
21:38:24 <fizzie> `` find wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs -0 grep -l DALnet
21:38:25 <HackEgo> wisdom/esoteric \ wisdom/welcome.fr \ wisdom/welcome.nl \ wisdom/willkommen \ wisdom/welcome \ wisdom/welcome.sv \ wisdom/welcome.es
21:39:14 <HackEgo> wisdom/dahl:dahl dih dahl dahl \ wisdom/oerjan:Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
21:39:23 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull Phantom_Hoover
21:40:21 <fizzie> `` find wisdom -type f -exec grep -l DALnet '{}' + # or the find-only version
21:40:23 <HackEgo> wisdom/esoteric \ wisdom/welcome.fr \ wisdom/welcome.nl \ wisdom/willkommen \ wisdom/welcome \ wisdom/welcome.sv \ wisdom/welcome.es
21:40:45 <fizzie> Not that I could have remembered the "-exec ... +" feature without consulting the documentation.
21:40:52 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember there was a reason for dahl but i've forgotten it entirely
21:41:06 <fizzie> I might have managed the regular -exec ... \; but that would've done far too many greps.
21:46:18 <fizzie> I've been just xargsing it up, sometimes with -print0/-0 if I feel real fancy.
21:46:43 <FireFly> I think the fact that -print0 / -0 is needed is a bit ugly
21:49:43 <FireFly> “If you use this option, you must ensure that your $PATH environment variable does not reference `.'; otherwise, an attacker can run any commands they like by leaving an appropriately-named file in a directory in which you will run -execdir. The same applies to having entries in $PATH which are empty or which are not absolute directory names.”
21:50:05 <FireFly> I knew about the former, of course, but what is the problem with having empty directories in $PATH?
21:50:43 <b_jonas> they'll be interpreted as relative
21:51:18 <FireFly> even if they start with a leading slash? seems silly
21:51:33 <fizzie> Empty entries, not empty directories. I think.
21:51:44 <b_jonas> FireFly: if an entry has a leading slash, it's not an empty string
21:51:46 <FireFly> Right, that makes more sense
21:51:57 <b_jonas> There's also a problem with having PATH undefined by the way,
21:51:58 <FireFly> Right, I read it as entries pointing to empty directories
21:53:10 <b_jonas> that shouldn't be a problme
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21:54:06 <b_jonas> although entries pointing to an empty directory on a floppy disk or network drive or similar unaccessible file systems can be a problem because it can slow down exec
21:54:54 <FireFly> though the emptiness doesn't really matter in that case
21:55:40 <b_jonas> DOS is even worse, for historical reasons, because no matter the path it looks in the working directory of the current drive first, and if the PATH contains a reference to a nonexistant drive you get an error (a nonexistant directory on a valid drive isn't a problem)
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22:30:01 <hppavilion[1]> Forgot that some people don't think and read in python
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23:31:18 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion1 <hppavilion1> mauris: Should we make a `noespanole command (no squiggly because most of us don't have that on our keyboards) that explains that this channel is not what they're looking for <-- that's essentially what `bienvenido _is_ hth
23:33:11 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] it's impossible to communicate effectively with people who keep changing nick (aka you have a @tell at hppavilion1)
23:37:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DUCK]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45828 * Hurricane996 * (+529) Created page with "Duck is a [[Joke language list|joke language]] made by [[user:Hurricane996]]. The language is different for every interpreter. When you write an interpreter, any program does ..."
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23:43:25 <hppavilion1> (Just joining with a secondary nick to check for a message)
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23:44:29 <hppavilion[1]> A Knowledge Representation Format. Something like XML or JSON, but eso-.
23:44:35 <oerjan> effectivity, that's us
23:45:09 <oerjan> effective communication hth
23:45:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hurricane996]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45829 * Hurricane996 * (+42) Created page with "Hi. i just want this here to be consistent"
23:45:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Hurricane996]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45830 * Hurricane996 * (+20) Created page with "Same as my user page"
23:45:51 <hppavilion[1]> I thought you were referring to "A Knowledge representation format..." xD. I was thinking "Wait, we're a KRF?"
23:46:35 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, and I got the message. It looks like the existing command is just a translation of `relcome and might not be clear if it's a spanish-speaking user looking for something else other than the DALnet channel.
23:46:36 -!- oerjan has set topic: The international hub for esoteric KRF design and deployment. | /ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
23:46:48 <hppavilion[1]> Which is what I understood the person on earlier to be
23:47:08 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: but it's not, there's an extra part in it
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00:05:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ESON]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45831 * Hppavilion1 * (+2568) Created Page (incomplete
00:06:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ESON]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45832&oldid=45831 * Hppavilion1 * (+15) Forgot to cover floats
00:08:51 <hppavilion[1]> For some reason, <code>/"[^\s]*/</code> is referring to render as code
00:09:47 <hppavilion[1]> The <code> tag actually renders (but not the closing tag) and the box (but only that box) renders as unformatted text
00:10:03 <oerjan> try <code><nowiki>...</nowiki></code>
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00:13:24 <hppavilion[1]> Nope. Replaced it with " and I get the same error.
00:14:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ESON]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45833&oldid=45832 * Hppavilion1 * (+5) /* Commands */ Tried to fix formatting. Gave up.
00:24:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ESON]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45834&oldid=45833 * Oerjan * (+2) The error was somewhere completely different
00:26:05 <oerjan> i replaced almost everything by &entities;, it didn't help, and i tried removing <code></code> to see if the entities where being recognized at all. then i saw the error move to the next row...
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00:26:19 <oerjan> and only then did i think to look at the previous one.
00:28:47 <oerjan> weird how that didn't affect the intermediate cell at all...
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00:30:37 <oerjan> hm in the html it's all escaped, except that the missing </code> is probably autoinserted by the </td>
00:31:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: my guess is that the wiki somehow handles <code> detection and table formatting independently, causing a crazy confusion when a tag is missing.
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00:32:34 <oerjan> the </code> on the _previous_ row was missing
00:34:39 <oerjan> which probably caused the wiki to think the next <code> was inside a <code>, so it escaped it.
00:35:06 <oerjan> and somehow this happened independently of the table formatting
00:35:53 <oerjan> and html (at least in my browser) is flexible enough to auto-close/ignore the erroneous <code> and </code> tags remaining
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00:37:50 <oerjan> or in other words, mediawiki parsing is insane, piecemeal, and ad hoc.
00:38:28 <boily> KRF is mediawiki's parsing?
00:38:32 <oerjan> `learn KRF is the Norwegian Christian Democratic Party.
00:38:37 <HackEgo> Learned 'krf': KRF is the Norwegian Christian Democratic Party.
00:39:01 <oerjan> boily: actually it's ... i've forgotten it already but it's hppavilion[1]'s latest idea.
00:39:27 <oerjan> something something format
00:40:01 * oerjan preserves the mystery by not checking his backscroll
00:40:04 <boily> and YLE is the Finnish Broadcasting Company.
00:40:15 <boily> a thing doesn't need to be known to be known hth
00:42:11 <boily> also, I'm progressing through the Advent of Code. I used the loeb combinator to solve day 7!
00:43:45 * oerjan assumes that this is something that would cause his webreading catchup to go backwards if he allowed himself to get sucked in.
00:44:50 <oerjan> i think esolangs.org is sliding to the point where i'm giving up on it
00:45:10 <oerjan> (somewhere around September 15 iirc)
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00:46:50 <oerjan> if i do that, i might be able to get r/reddit caught up to the beginning of november soon.
00:47:58 <oerjan> shachaf: Kristelig FolkeParti, technically.
00:48:11 <shachaf> oerjan: how do you feel about your completionist tendencies
00:48:39 <shachaf> oerjan: also since when do you .-terminate your irc sentences
00:48:54 <oerjan> also i'm afraid i might need glasses at some close point in the future.
00:50:02 <oerjan> they're not very transparent.
00:51:06 <oerjan> shachaf: i dunno about the .s but at least i'm not consistent about it.
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01:12:18 <coppro> \oren\: shouldn't it be konboilywa
01:13:08 <boily> chelloppro! it depends on the romanization scheme hth
01:13:22 <coppro> boily: but yours is definitely wrong
01:13:41 <boily> I katakanaed it because reasons.
01:13:56 <coppro> wouldn't the last kana change, then?
01:13:58 <boily> it usually is こんばんは, with the infamous は.
01:14:28 <boily> maybe. I'm not an expert in historical kana usage, which I guess would dictate which one to use.
01:15:00 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: the `bienvenido command *does* say that most people here don't speak Spanish.
01:15:06 <coppro> quick research indicates that yeah, katakana is always phonetic
01:15:21 <coppro> you don't use ハ for wa ever
01:15:58 <tswett> Doink, you already got @told that.
01:16:15 <lifthrasiir> boily: it seems that it was actually the reverse, i.e. the final ha is spelt ha and pronunced wa (then later standardized to phonetic values except for postpositions)
01:17:39 <tswett> I thought that the topic marker particle は was always written "wa" rather than "ha", in, like, every romanization scheme.
01:18:06 <pikhq> Not every. Wapuro romaji doesn't. :)
01:19:21 <boily> that's why you sometimes get syo/sho, si/shi, ha/wa, wo/o...
01:19:42 <boily> another good argument to conflagrate Norwegian and Japanese together.
01:20:34 <pikhq> Wapuro is particularly helpful in that it actually can encode some kana use that other schemes don't.
01:21:36 <\oren\> yah, like you can distinguish onee from onei
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01:22:29 <\oren\> and oo (big) from ou (king)
01:22:52 <pikhq> And you can actually write "ti" (as opposed to "chi")
01:23:15 <boily> shouldn't that be texi or teli?
01:24:08 <pikhq> boily: Yeah, yeah.
01:24:25 <pikhq> "ti" is more informal Hepburn-esque romanization.
01:24:31 <\oren\> like dexizuni- (disney)
01:26:02 <boily> . o O ( are there any conlangs/transcriptions that explicitely encode weird keystrokes like that? )
01:26:28 <pikhq> Or "t`exis`uni-" if you use pikhq romaji.
01:27:45 <\oren\> hahahaahahahahaahahahahahahahah
01:28:14 <FireFly> ` representing dakuten? what do you do for the ° in 'p*'?
01:28:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
01:28:16 <boily> you broke oren. brorenke.
01:28:40 <FireFly> Oh, literally. I thought it was a pointer to a previous message first
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01:29:00 <pikhq> FireFly: Basically all I wanted was a trivial mapping from kana to ASCII, for... Honestly, shits and giggles.
01:30:14 <pikhq> About the only advantage is it can represent really unusual kana use, as in Ainu.
01:30:43 <FireFly> I forget what language family that was in, but it was something entirely non-japanese, wasn't it?
01:30:46 <pikhq> "axinu itaxku", for instance.
01:30:53 <pikhq> FireFly: Yep. Language isolate.
01:31:14 <\oren\> a lot of language isolates around there, huh
01:31:42 <pikhq> Quite plausibly the isolates are "just" so distantly related it's hard to demonstrate a connection.
01:31:47 <boily> perhaps some day in the Far Future we'll be set about all these languages...
01:31:59 <pikhq> ... But, then, if they're related they're so distantly related we can't tell. :)
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01:34:37 <\oren\> I should start figuring out how to generate hangul. I think I'll be generating them in BDF format
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01:48:11 <boily> halp. I relapsed into drug abuse.
01:48:16 <boily> (namely minecraft.)
01:51:33 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Oh, phew. You had me worried for a second xD
01:53:53 <hppavilion[1]> My grapher looks REALLY cool when you enter "x sin abs; x cos abs; 0 x sin abs -; 0 x cos abs -;"
01:54:20 <boily> there's one thing I'm physically addicted to: coffee.
01:54:20 <hppavilion[1]> (That's RPN if you spend too long trying to figure out what monstrosity I created where you can treat - as a number)
01:55:43 <boily> are you mostly mormon?
01:55:47 <hppavilion[1]> I jsut entered "x tan abs" and now tangent makes sense to me.
01:56:17 <hppavilion[1]> Statistically, yes, given that alaska seems to have a higher-than-average concentration of mormons, but I'm not a mormon personally.
01:59:12 <hppavilion[1]> Something like "\x GRPHVAR := <rpnexp> GRAPH" should do
02:01:24 <hppavilion[1]> [| <rpnexp> |] GRAPH perhaps? The x is pushed onto the stack before evaluating the block the result is popped off?
02:03:55 <hppavilion[1]> x sin x 5 / sin x 5 * sin x 10 / sin x 10 * sin + + + + abs
02:04:14 <hppavilion[1]> You can make any trigonometric equation look cooler by adding "abs" to the end, unless it's always > 0
02:05:56 <hppavilion[1]> Forgot that I'm exclusively using RPN right now xD
02:06:23 <FireFly> I've never really used a postfix calculator or language a lot, so I guess it's just not part of my mental model
02:07:31 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: I'm making a whole language intended for use in Postfix
02:08:42 <FireFly> So, a concatenative language then
02:11:07 <FireFly> Reminds me of that blog post, "why concatenative languages matter". it's a good read
02:11:19 <hppavilion[1]> It's almost 100% postfix instructions; the only parsing done after lexing (other than comments) is blocking code
02:11:35 <boily> sometimes, haskell feels very concatenative. especially when using arrows.
02:12:26 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: ... why
02:13:03 <hppavilion[1]> Need to be able to easily access elements like I can in python, else I can't wrap my head around it xD
02:13:42 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: what do you *actually* want out of your data structure? std::list doesn't support random access out-of-the-box because it's an O(n) operation
02:14:26 <coppro> std::next can do it with a bit more work
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02:23:33 <quintopia> what is the most concatenative of functional concatenatives?
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03:02:51 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6TQ44rigEc
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04:03:55 <oerjan> `` echo '*tsjørp*' >canary
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05:18:39 <oerjan> huh i thought last girl genius comic it looked a bit like her
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05:27:37 <oerjan> hm after this i wonder if my wild theory that higgs could be a jäger might be correct...
05:28:49 <oerjan> just one that doesn't look like a monster
05:30:00 <oerjan> because if jenka can look that human then someone else might look even more so.
05:31:14 <oerjan> i wonder if "many faces" means she's actually a shapeshifter
05:31:41 <oerjan> probably not, then she wouldn't have needed to hide her face before.
05:42:47 <oerjan> (and here i had thought it was because it was particularly hideous...)
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05:46:49 <oren> woudl it be better to draw hangul in one stroke width only, or vary the stroke width depending on the complexity of the character?
05:49:44 <oren> for kanji, I did the latter : 人 has thicker strokes than 談
05:52:30 <lifthrasiir> oren: I think hangul syllable is denser in y axis than in x axis, so I would prefer the former in terms of consistency
05:53:11 <coppro> do the dense ones first
05:53:18 <coppro> and then see how the sparse ones look
05:53:33 <oerjan> ...maybe higgs is the spymaster.
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06:11:42 <\oren\> I'm now working on a program in C to generate hangul as a BDF fragment. Then, I'll manually put the fragment into the BDF for my font
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06:40:59 <oerjan> did you accidentally an rm
06:42:14 <\oren\> no, but my hangul are, uh, not working
06:42:59 <\oren\> I must be messing up my BDF somehow
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09:35:22 <b_jonas> \oren\: you're working on hangul too? great!
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10:08:48 <b_jonas> Is Claire's hair strange, or is it just drawn strange, in today's http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3110
10:23:18 <fizzie> I thought it was just a new hairstyle. It was a bit like that two days ago too. Though the first panel looks weirder.
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10:49:31 <mroman> I still don't get how "bubble pumps" work
10:50:00 <mroman> Is cold water heavier than warm water?
10:52:30 <mroman> it's probably less dense at least
10:53:12 <mroman> you heat up the water which creates vapor in it
10:53:17 <mroman> that decreases the density
10:53:38 <mroman> and the pressure from the cold water is thus more forcing the hot water/water vapor mix up the tube?
11:35:30 <fizzie> The density isn't monotonic with temperature, even when you're in liquid phase.
11:35:53 <fizzie> I seem to recall the densest point is something like 4 degrees.
11:36:07 <fizzie> http://linkingweatherandclimate.com/ocean/waterdensity.php random graph
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11:36:46 <fizzie> Above that point you'll have cold water denser than warm water.
11:37:42 <fizzie> (I don't know anything about bubble pumps, this was just a comment on the density.)
11:40:23 <boily> . o O ( you are my density )
11:40:56 <mroman> technically under swiss laws my blog post about GOT would be illegal :(
11:41:25 <mroman> publicicly disclosing security vulnerabilites would be illegal as well.
11:43:50 <fizzie> Meanwhile in the UK, we've (I'm not sure I can already call it "we", I don't feel very UK-ian) got https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_Communications_Data_Bill coming.
11:45:06 <fizzie> Or the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_Investigatory_Powers_Bill rather.
11:46:05 <fizzie> The Global Offset Table.
11:46:20 <fizzie> I think I saw chatter on it on-channel.
11:46:20 <bender|> lol, I thought this was some offtopic channel
11:46:30 <fizzie> You're not far wrong there.
12:05:48 <boily> bellonder|. have I asked you your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh?
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12:54:32 <tswett> mroman: from reading the Wikipedia article about bubble pumps, I don't see anything about heating.
12:56:19 <b_jonas> fungot: what are bellonder|'s approximate geographical coordinates and body ewight
12:56:19 <fungot> b_jonas: what the hell was that? my, that is a smart mouth you have. it plays a role in the outcome of the kids' game session.
12:56:37 <b_jonas> fungot: with peanut butter?
12:56:37 <fungot> b_jonas: you have a great appreciation for the fine arts. you use the hammer and nails. they will come a day
12:58:21 <tswett> mroman: ah, I just watched this one about how a coffee maker works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j4Q_YBRJEI
13:00:21 <tswett> I think in that video, the pressure from the cold water reservoir is irrelevant because the valve is closed when water is spewing out of the pump... at least, some of the time.
13:01:10 <tswett> My best guess is that what's happening is that the heating element boils some of the water at the bottom, which causes it to expand greatly, and this expansion pushes water out of the top of the pump.
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13:50:13 <b_jonas> Why is Soothing Balm a white instant that gains life with art depicting two humans, rather than a red creature with an ability to bite?
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14:04:12 <mroman> tswett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_percolator#/media/File:Coffee_Percolator_Cutaway_Diagram.svg
14:04:24 <mroman> which doesn't seem to have a valve that blocks in one direction?
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14:49:13 <\oren\> Emily is a great computer scientist
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14:51:40 <\oren\> FireFly: I am referring to todays QC
14:53:59 <b_jonas> \oren\: Emily and Tai are done great, it's Claire's hair that seems unusual to me. Is it messed up, or drawn bad, or what?
14:55:28 <\oren\> I think the artist changed his method of drawing hair to a more mangaesque style. Look at Penelope's hair in recent comics
14:58:10 <\oren\> however, wavy hair is not common in manga, given that pretty much all japanese people have straight black hair. so it makes sense that wavy hiar draw in such a style would look weird
14:58:59 <b_jonas> \oren\: that's possible. thanks for the explanation.
14:59:39 <b_jonas> that could also explain why Tai's hair looks strange in http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3108
15:00:02 <\oren\> the change started at about 3104
15:00:51 <b_jonas> In fact, now I look at it, Hannelore's hair looks unusual as well in http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3106 , only I didn't notice it because Hannelore is very easy to recognize even without her hair shape
15:01:38 <b_jonas> Somehow many of the characters of QC don't look distinct enough to me.
15:01:50 <b_jonas> But maybe it's just that there are too many of them.
15:02:08 <b_jonas> Distinct in appearance that is.
15:02:16 <b_jonas> They do have consistent and distinct personalities.
15:02:54 <b_jonas> And maybe there's also that they've changed in style a lot since the comic started, because Jeph learnt to draw well.
15:04:00 <b_jonas> http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/comic/millie/comic?n=20080616 is a great illustration about that, although Dana's style didn't change as much as Jeph's
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15:13:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DUCK]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45835&oldid=45828 * Hurricane996 * (+5)
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16:12:40 <HackEgo> U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER \ UTF-8: ef bf bd UTF-16BE: fffd Decimal: � \ � \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
16:27:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:3var]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45836&oldid=45653 * 205.236.81.253 * (-20) /* Extensions */
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16:53:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Spoon]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45837&oldid=31336 * Chris Pressey * (+60) /* External resources */ www.bluedust.dontexist.com dontexist
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17:24:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Retina]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45838&oldid=44563 * Mbomb007 * (+54) online interpreter
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17:53:25 <quintopia> ooh a new online interpreter for retina
18:03:06 <FireFly> retina, was that the .NET regex thing?
18:03:44 <FireFly> Oh. I apparently somehow glossed over the HackEgo link
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20:49:16 <zzo38> I am making many more Magic: the Gathering cards in the computer; I have written them on the paper and now I will put them into the computer. That is generally how I do, when I am not near the computer.
20:52:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: by the way, have you looked at ais523's thesis? http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/6120/1/Smith15PhD.pdf
20:53:20 <shachaf> All that work for nothing.
20:53:29 <shachaf> I should apologize to ais523.
20:54:05 <hppavilion[1]> [| 3 * |] 1 [] :: 2 \ :: 3 \ :: |-> gets [3, 6, 9]
20:55:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: he's explained that it looks so bad mostly because of some stupid formatting requirements by the university. so I asked whether he will later make a version that looks better but doesn't try to conform those requirements.
20:55:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, have you looked at oren's and lifthr*'s font?
20:55:51 <hppavilion[1]> It creates a block (anonymous function) that pushes 3 and multiplies the top 2 items on the stack when called, then pushes 1, pushes an empty list, concatenates, repeats
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20:56:27 <hppavilion[1]> Should I add some syntactic sugar so lists can be written more easily? [ 1, 2, 3 ] equivalent to 1 [] :: 2 \ :: 3 \ :: ?
20:57:17 <hppavilion[1]> It'd a be a bit of a pain, but it might be worth it
20:57:39 <hppavilion[1]> (If you're wondering why :: is cons instead of :, it's because : is laconic DUP)
20:58:23 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: why would I wonder? standard ML has : and :: backwards compared to Haskell
20:58:43 <b_jonas> ie. in haskell : is cons and :: is type restriction, whereas in standard ML, :: is cons and : is type restriction
20:59:23 <hppavilion[1]> So it isn't even backwards, it's entirely unrelated
20:59:44 <zzo38> Why are the lowercase Greek alphabets slanted to left?
21:00:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: slanted to the left? what?
21:00:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: I thoguht they were ordinary italic greek letters, only taken from computer modern which slightly clashes with the latin letters in the formulas which are from Times
21:00:54 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: I've no idea, because I don't know what your language is like
21:01:04 <hppavilion[1]> (Now that I think about it, it'd be kind of difficult to implement with nesting lists)
21:01:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: they might look like slanted to the left compared to the italic latin letters
21:01:54 <hppavilion[1]> I should go through the docs and decide which ones I can make lightweight
21:02:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: I was more bothered that they're wider, and have bigger serifs, that's how cm always looks next to times to me
21:02:48 <zzo38> No, they are slanted to the left compared with straight letters and punctuation
21:03:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: wait, are you talking about the lower case or the upper case greek letters?
21:03:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: which page and which letter in particular?
21:03:29 <b_jonas> because I don't see them that way
21:03:59 <zzo38> But if you need to use Computer Modern fonts together with Times you could program a new Computer Modern font with parameters design to be compatible with it
21:04:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, but the difficulty with that is that it's processed with the ordinary TeX engine so you need a TeX font metric for it
21:04:48 <b_jonas> it would look nice, but I admit it's not trivial to do
21:05:20 <b_jonas> the theta and gamma in the formulas definitely look to me like they're slanted to the right
21:05:28 <b_jonas> just like italic letters in formulas should
21:05:42 <b_jonas> they're just slanted a bit less than the italic latin letters
21:05:51 <zzo38> On my computer all of the lowercase Greek letters in that document (and only the lowercase Greek letters) are slanted to the left.
21:06:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: that's strange. are you looking at the pdf version?
21:06:21 <zzo38> That is the version you linked, isn't it?
21:06:34 <b_jonas> no, I linked a html page from which you can download that
21:06:42 <zzo38> But I am using Firefox to view it and not Adobe
21:07:08 <zzo38> No you linked http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/6120/1/Smith15PhD.pdf it is the PDF
21:07:09 <b_jonas> I looked at it with okular, which uses a modified xpdf engine
21:07:33 <b_jonas> I didn't try to look at it with adobe or firefox or chrome yet
21:08:28 <zzo38> (I don't even have Adobe on this computer; the only other program I have to view PDF is Ghostscript and I have not tried that one yet)
21:08:39 <b_jonas> Well, this sounds strange. You'll have ot bring it up with ais523 I think.
21:09:18 <b_jonas> I mean, I can render to images to show what I'm seeing, but that won't help you debug this.
21:15:14 <zzo38> I may also write a SQL program to convert my cards.txt file into a SQL database (but keeping the text version too and using the text version as the main version to edit); and then even such thing can be done with the SQL version including user comments, random selected, etc
21:15:14 <hppavilion[1]> x x * 150 / x sin + x 10 * sin + extra wavy parabola
21:16:26 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: does it do parameteric plots? plot an archimedean spiral, then animated Lissajous curves with the angle offset varying by time!
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21:16:47 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Haven't implemented parametric things yet, not sure if I can
21:16:51 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: 1 x / sin, the topologist's sine.
21:17:41 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: do it! Lissajous curves are funny, eg. http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=621188
21:17:46 <hppavilion[1]> What other functions should I mess with? Anything fun outside Trig?
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21:17:56 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I should implement the Hyperbolic Trigonometric Functions?
21:19:03 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: implement everything. it shouldn't be hard, if you're not writing the implementation, just using existing functions from a C or C++ library that work on machine doubles, right?
21:19:40 <hppavilion[1]> x 5 %; x 10 %; x 15 %; x 20 %; x 25 %; x 30 %; x 35 %; x 40 %; x 45 %; x 50 %
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21:22:08 <b_jonas> I mean, sure, { + - * / < == <= != min max floor ceil rint trunc sqrt sin cos atan exp log frexp ldexp } are IMO the most important, but it doesn't cost much to add other numeric functions, right?
21:22:26 <b_jonas> you have a sqrt builtin, right?
21:23:04 <b_jonas> a useful language should have those
21:23:12 <b_jonas> some sort of variables also help
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21:23:38 <b_jonas> but since I don't know your current state of your language, or your goals, it's hard to say anything.
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21:32:45 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Oh, the grapher is a different program (for now) that also happens to be stack based
21:33:22 <hppavilion[1]> min, max, floor, and ceil are the only ones I don't have, plus the relationals because it's for graphing and relationals usually are boolean
21:37:36 <hppavilion[1]> What is the vertical log? Like how Parabolas are the vertical sqrt?
21:40:33 <Melvar> @check \x => log (exp x) = x
21:40:33 <lambdabot> <unknown>.hs: 1: 4:Parse error: =>
21:40:41 <Melvar> @check \x -> log (exp x) = x
21:40:41 <lambdabot> <unknown>.hs: 1: 19:Parse error: =
21:40:46 <Melvar> @check \x -> log (exp x) == x
21:40:48 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 5 tests and 1074 shrinks):
21:42:37 <hppavilion[1]> Melvar: NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
21:43:03 <hppavilion[1]> That is pretty bad. Which is why I prefer to store all data in reducible algebraic objects.
21:43:19 <Melvar> @check \x -> (log (exp x) - x) / x > 0.00001
21:43:20 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 1 test):
21:44:10 <Melvar> @check \(Nonzero x) -> (log (exp x) - x) / x > 0.00001
21:44:12 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Nonzero’
21:44:12 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘NonZero’ (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Tru...
21:44:40 <Melvar> @check \(NonZero x) -> (log (exp x) - x) / x > 0.00001
21:44:42 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 1 test and 1084 shrinks):
21:44:42 <lambdabot> NonZero {getNonZero = -0.8879352820856286}
21:45:28 <Melvar> Man I am just derping around here.
21:45:52 <Melvar> @check \(NonZero x) -> abs ((log (exp x) - x) / x) < 0.00001
21:45:54 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 41 tests and 11 shrinks):
21:45:54 <lambdabot> NonZero {getNonZero = -7963.282355550385}
21:46:26 <Melvar> @check \(NonZero x) -> abs ((log (exp x) - x) / x) < 0.0001
21:46:28 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 28 tests and 8 shrinks):
21:46:28 <lambdabot> NonZero {getNonZero = -907.4096946139496}
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22:47:08 <HackEgo> footnote 8/Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes?
22:47:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: footnote: not found
22:47:34 <HackEgo> Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes?
22:47:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: footnote: not found
22:48:02 <shachaf> `mkx bin/footnote//cat "wisdom/footnote $1"
22:48:12 <boily> hppavellon[1]. Spoiler: it's the only remaining footnote, last of its line hth
22:48:34 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/footnote 1000: No such file or directory
22:48:37 <boily> hellochaf. thachaf.
22:48:45 <shachaf> Every time HackEgo writes that message it messes up my terminal.
22:49:05 <shachaf> Also it's kind of annoying to write commands that you know are going to fail in a public channel.
22:49:14 <shachaf> At least a bunch of them in a row.
22:50:27 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: THe second `footnote was because I forgot I'd sent hte first `footnote, and I was checking if there were any other ones hidden
22:51:00 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn headnote 1/Headnotes are boring. Let's go fly kites!
22:51:35 <HackEgo> cat "$(find evil -type f | shuf -n1)" | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
22:51:49 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
22:53:45 <boily> "GLARE AT A PANDA"
22:53:53 <hppavilion[1]> "TURN AN UNWILLING MAN INTO A WEAPONIZED CYBORG IN ORDER TO WIN A CIVIL WAR THAT HAS BEEN RAGING FOR YEARS"
22:58:41 <hppavilion[1]> A neural net with special CS related nodes (e.g. a queue node instead of any normal node)
23:01:34 <hppavilion[1]> I like stacky langs because you can just join two programs with a space and essentially combine them into a new program bourne of both
23:01:50 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps stack-based languages would be good for Evolutionary Programming because of that
23:03:18 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:03:22 * hppavilion[1] probably just discovered something that's been studied for the last 15 billion years (note the age of the universe in comparison)
23:05:01 <boily> Push Down Automatons?
23:05:17 <boily> the Universe is big. there are multiple things in it.
23:05:57 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: is this trying to be an essentially stack-based language that tries to hide that by some syntactic sugar, like Slang?
23:06:15 <b_jonas> that Slang => http://www.jedsoft.org/slang/
23:06:39 <b_jonas> and by stack-based, I mean something between postscript and forth
23:07:05 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: It is not; the [ ... ] syntactic sugar is because making a list via consing and swapping is incredibly hard to read.
23:07:54 <hppavilion[1]> But yes, it is stack (or more accurately, deque)-based. Very much so.
23:10:16 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: in that case, why don't you just add a ] operator like in postscript, which isn't syntactic sugar?
23:11:39 <b_jonas> postscript has a stack with synamically typed entries, the [ operator pushes a special value called a mark, and the ] operator finds the topmost mark value on the stack and makes an array from everything up to that, popping those values and the mark
23:12:13 <hppavilion[1]> The current way you make a list (consitently) is "[] <item1> \ :: <item2> \ :: <item3> \ :: ... <itemn> \ ::", which builds a list in the order of the items
23:12:15 <b_jonas> midn you, postscript also has curly braces which are special syntax (not ordinary operators you could define) and make a literal array, sort of like quote in scheme/lisp
23:12:53 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: well sure, you want multiple array functions, ] isn't the only function that builds an array
23:13:09 <HackEgo> forty means "in a fort-like manner"
23:13:16 <hppavilion[1]> I'll have to think about what symbol to use though
23:13:35 <b_jonas> postscript also has mutable arrays with fixed size, like scheme, so you can make an array of a particular size and later modify entries by index
23:13:37 <hppavilion[1]> The brackets [, ], [|, and |] are all taken, and I want something typable
23:14:03 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: mark and array ?
23:14:07 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I believe that is wrong; wouldn't that be fortily?
23:14:11 <b_jonas> why does it have to be puncutation?
23:14:48 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Pretty much. [a-zA-Z_][a-zA-Z0-9_] names just get pushed and you have to call them with `
23:15:43 <b_jonas> postscript has some strange brackets too. ( ) makes string literals, [ and ] are operators, but there's also iirc < > << >> [[ ]] and more
23:16:20 <hppavilion[1]> << >> < > are shifts and comparisons, respectively in my langauge
23:17:25 <boily> b_jonas: PDF definitely has <<>>. weird things happen in PDFs.
23:17:31 <b_jonas> < > makes string from hex encoding, <~ ~> makes string from base85 encoding (postscript files often encode font data and other data this way, although late enough versions of postscript can technically also have binary stuff in it)
23:17:57 <boily> hppavilion[1]: how dare you doubt the correctness of the wisdom, eh?
23:18:18 <b_jonas> << >> construct dictionaries from the stack the same way as [ and ] construct arrays
23:18:49 <b_jonas> ok, that's not actually that many strange brackets
23:19:10 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Mine uses [| and |] to delimit code blocks.
23:19:37 <boily> so far, nobody seems to use 【】.
23:20:28 <hppavilion[1]> [| : `even \ 3 % 0 = | |] <list> |-? filters out numbers divisible by either 2 or 3
23:21:08 <fizzie> Forth has [ and ] as normal (well, mostly normal) words too, though they don't do anything to the stack -- [ enters interpretation state, and ] enters compilation state, so that you can stick in literals in your compiled word -- like the definitions : foo 2 2 + ; and : foo' [ 2 2 + ] literal ; quite similar, but for the latter there'll be a literal 4 in the definition of foo'.
23:21:26 <boily> sqornshellous? a nut with a tough shell that can't be cracked by squirrels?
23:21:37 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn Brontosaurus/A brontosaurus is an ancient mythological creature. They were well known for having mapoles for teeth.
23:21:59 <b_jonas> boily: no. it's a planet mentioned in HHGG or something like that
23:22:53 <HackEgo> imaginary unit? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:23:15 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn imaginary unit/The imaginary unit is what you get when you take the square root of love
23:24:01 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:24:03 <int-e> hmm, grep says the mattresses come from Squornshellous Zeta
23:24:32 <fizzie> `forth : foo 2 2 + ; : foo' [ 2 2 + ]L ; foo . foo' . see foo see foo'
23:24:33 <HackEgo> 4 4 \ : foo \ 2 2 + ; \ : foo' \ 4 ;
23:24:50 <int-e> so I guess Squ. is actually a star.
23:25:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45839&oldid=45815 * Luis Mendo * (+2) /* Compiler */
23:25:51 <hppavilion[1]> Because you weren't thinking very clearly when you created the universe and you drained most of your power doing so. Now, you're stuck with some CMD bullshit, and not even a Unix CMD.
23:27:05 <Sgeo> CMD makes me think of cmd.exe which is terrible
23:27:51 <Sgeo> Supposedly Windows 10's cmd is decent, haven't switched to 10 yet though
23:28:22 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: Do you like the idea of God Mode Command Line?
23:29:31 <Sgeo> I was going to comment about how my response was going to make me look like a technophobe because language recognition weirds me out, but command line parsing is simpler than that
23:30:17 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/*footnote*
23:30:29 <HackEgo> Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes?
23:30:44 <int-e> I knew there was a footnote :)
23:30:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45840&oldid=45839 * Luis Mendo * (+478) /* Specification */
23:31:12 * Sgeo replaces int-e with isize-e
23:33:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Increase gravity to 2.3 times the standard gravitational energy)
23:34:35 <Sgeo> Have a script that lets web users set gravity to any value. Don't bother escaping the arguments or using an API that accepts anything other than a string to make command line calls
23:34:56 <int-e> . o O ( Sseleno, hmm )
23:35:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45841&oldid=45840 * Luis Mendo * (-36) /* Hello, world! */
23:36:44 <int-e> solve cube - why bother, you already know how to do it in 20 or fewer moves...
23:39:38 <int-e> we all love bobby tables
23:39:52 <Sgeo> Make a web page that, when you submit a form, does "setPhysics gravity $blah" where $blah is the data from the form. Don't do anything that prevents users from doing things other than setting gravity.
23:40:48 <int-e> (Bobby Tables: https://xkcd.com/327/ )
23:41:13 <fizzie> intmax_t-e, the biggest (signed) int-e of them all.
23:41:44 <int-e> but etymologically that's wrong
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23:44:30 <hppavilion[1]> I was going to make the game force you to play from a command line shell
23:47:25 <hppavilion[1]> Why don't programming languages allow 0q-prefixed integers I wonder...
23:48:36 <hppavilion[1]> How about a crowdsourced calculator? Basically, a big neural network would be employed and people can teach it operations
23:55:17 <fizzie> Allowing 0b for binary isn't all that ubiquitous either. C doesn't.
23:56:22 <hppavilion[1]> Should I use a neural network or some other form of machine learning?
23:56:43 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: ooh, ooh.
23:56:48 <hppavilion[1]> I don't want it to be /too/ accurate, but I want it to give occasional wacky results and accept weird input
23:57:04 <tswett> I have an idea (completely unrelated to what you're currently talking about).
23:57:09 <hppavilion[1]> So you could call the crazy operation (See: Malbolge) on "walrus" and True
23:57:38 <tswett> A "double stack programming language". It's an esoteric programming language that simply consists of two sub-languages.
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23:58:02 <tswett> Each of the sub-languages describes a push-down automaton, so it only has access to a finite amount of storage plus a stack.
23:58:11 <tswett> But the two sub-languages are totally different.
23:58:37 <tswett> If you have one stack, that can't be Turing-complete. If you have two stacks, you can.
23:59:13 <tswett> So in order to do useful stuff, you have to get the two languages to cooperate with each other.
23:59:17 <hppavilion[1]> How about a language designed to start holy wars whenever the topic of its computational class comes up?
00:00:33 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: so I think theoretically a neural net should work pretty well.
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00:00:58 <tswett> How do you feel about reimplementing more complicated versions of state-of-the-art techniques?
00:01:15 <tswett> If you do that, you'll be golden. Golden, I tell you.
00:02:53 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Why would I need to do that, out of curiousity? 0.0
00:03:29 <tswett> Well, there are lots of different flavors of neural nets.
00:03:42 <tswett> The basic flavor just takes a tuple of numbers as input and spits out a tuple of numbers as output.
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00:04:01 <\oren\> fizzie: 0b for binary works in gcc.
00:04:47 <tswett> Such a neural net is practically incapable of doing certain tasks, such as remembering information for any amount of time, or comprehending multiple instances of a class at once.
00:05:02 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Of course, I want to deal with strings in some cases, so..
00:05:28 <tswett> Yup. And the basic way to deal with strings is to use a recurrent neural net.
00:05:38 -!- v^ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:05:52 <tswett> Which is the sort of thing that Karpathy's char-rnn program implements.
00:06:30 <fizzie> \oren\: Yes, but not in C.
00:06:39 <tswett> Well, lemme look up PyBrain.
00:06:41 <hppavilion[1]> (Pybrain supports recurrent neural nets, I believe)
00:07:13 <tswett> From the website: "PyBrain is a modular Machine Learning Library for Python." That right away makes me think the answer is probably yes.
00:07:14 <fizzie> I'm contractually obligated to bring up TensorFlow at this juncture. (Okay, not really.)
00:08:07 <fizzie> https://www.tensorflow.org/
00:08:57 <hppavilion[1]> Immediately: Oh god, category theory is nagging me again
00:09:09 <fizzie> It's pretty new, and also pretty generic, so it might not be quite as... how should one put it, task-oriented, than some other machine learning libraries.
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00:11:30 <fizzie> I don't have an opinion on that, because I'm pretty sure it depends on what you'll be doing. I wouldn't be surprised if it was (possibly a lot) better performance-wise, but maybe you're okay with smaller models and/or have less data.
00:12:46 <tswett> I'm not sure if TF is really a feasible thing to use here.
00:12:59 <fizzie> They've got more stuff on the tutorials section than I was expecting at this point in time.
00:13:06 <tswett> Like... does TF have neural nets as a feature?
00:13:44 <fizzie> Well, I mean. Two of the tutorials are called "Convolutional Neural Networks" and "Recurrent Neural Networks".
00:13:45 <tswett> I guess it does have a whole lot of NN-related features.
00:14:00 <fizzie> Whether you call them a "feature" depends on the definition.
00:15:12 <fizzie> I mean, the general TF framework itself is not inherently specific to neural networks, but it's certainly supposed to be convenient for them (because that's what it's used for), and hopefully there will be "standard" recipes for them.
00:16:13 <fizzie> But the generality does mean using it might involve more than just specifying some inputs and outputs, yes.
00:16:55 <fizzie> (Possibly in the form of stealing from existing examples, though.)
00:22:58 <oerjan> <boily> bellonder|. have I asked you your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh? <-- i'm going to go out on a limb and say that portmantelloing newbies is not the best way of ensuring a response hth
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00:24:15 <hppavilion[1]> I've seen him around here before, so I don't think he was a newbie
00:24:32 <oerjan> but did bender| even notice he was addressed, there?
00:25:12 <fizzie> Well, that might be a bit of much to ask, given the sort of thing it is. There's the Docker-based approach. Just as a note of caution, though, TF might really only make sense if you actually do expect to do big things.
00:27:23 <fizzie> (And Docker on Windows does involve running everything in a VM, which you might not prefer either.)
00:34:01 <\oren\> I managed to generate one hangul!
00:34:26 <\oren\> (yes, 1 character. better than zero)
00:43:41 <boily> @tell bender| sorry for the porthello >_>'...
00:44:39 <FireFly> you're sorry for the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portello_(soft_drink) ?
00:45:53 <FireFly> hm, actually looks like that does not refer to the same drink as https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portello
00:56:50 <HackEgo> Headnotes are boring. Let's go fly kites!
00:57:33 <oerjan> shachaf: protip: `revert doesn't work to uncreate a file hth
00:58:19 <tswett> Hey everyone! What's a real-world, practical example of an inner join which returns more rows than either of its input tables?
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01:10:18 <boily> Firellofly. the porthello, with a hello in it.
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01:11:33 <\oren\> tswett: any join between two tables, on a foreign key belonging to a third table
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01:15:18 <\oren\> For example, on a hockey_player table, you could join it to itself on "team" to form a list of all pairs of teammates
01:16:04 <\oren\> tswett: is that an ok example?
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02:21:50 <\oren\> Man, 28 final consonant clusters is a lot!
02:22:37 <\oren\> (techinally, 27, but I'm counting "none" as one for simplicity of programming)
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03:30:17 <hppavilion[1]> Probably... one page, prefix operators. That sounds good. Second argument ignored if not filled out
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03:48:13 <\oren\> I've generated 28 hangul!
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04:50:55 <\oren\> I have invented the filename extension .dat.c for a C source file containing nothing but constant value declarations
04:58:44 <\oren\> Each initial needs 5 sizes, each medial 2, and the finals only one
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05:02:38 <\oren\> hmm, or maybe the finals should be squashed down wiht horizontal vowels?
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05:06:08 <\oren\> Eh, i'll see how it looks then decide
05:24:13 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to make it so that when a form is submitted, it POSTs the data to /calc then replaces the content of a textarea in the form to the response of that post
05:26:17 <Sgeo> You could ... do something to prevent the form from truly submitting, then use XMLHttpRequest
05:26:30 <hppavilion[1]> I've got everything except one part working, it seems
05:26:37 <hppavilion[1]> It appears Jquery's $.post isn't calling the function as its third argument
05:26:43 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not getting any errors in the JS console though
05:26:55 <Sgeo> May I take a look?
05:28:42 <hppavilion[1]> Note that I'm doing copy-paste programming because this is currently more about the backend than the frontend
05:29:15 <Sgeo> Does Submitted ever get printed to the console?
05:31:05 <hppavilion[1]> So it's either the backend or some weird bug on the frontend
05:31:35 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: POST requests /can/ return responses, correct?
05:31:54 <Sgeo> POST requests can return data just like GET requests, I believe
05:31:59 <hppavilion[1]> Because the library I was using refused to work if a post method /didn't/ return data
05:32:41 <hppavilion[1]> OK, on the backend there's a line of python (which DEFINITELY gets executed because the print immediately preceeding it works) that says "return web.Response(text='Done!')"
05:32:53 <hppavilion[1]> Which you probably don't need to understand aiohttp to get
05:33:05 <Sgeo> Check the network tab
05:33:08 <Sgeo> Does a response come in?
05:33:36 <Sgeo> There should be a POST, which will have both the request and the response... or just the request if it failed
05:33:54 <hppavilion[1]> So my issue is that the function that is the third (2th) argument to $.post isn't getting called
05:34:13 <Sgeo> It won't get called if there is no response
05:34:52 <Sgeo> Do you see the POST request in the Network tab, at least?
05:35:50 <hppavilion[1]> I was in Net under console (or whatever ctrl+shift+k's default tab is)
05:36:28 <Sgeo> Also you're specifying it's json, I don't know what jQuery does if the result isn't json
05:36:34 <MDude> http://fav.me/d9jtxyb This fractal art thing I've been playing aroudn with in paint.net, does it resemble any more well known fractals?
05:36:50 <MDude> Since it seems pretty simple to make, so i would think it would already be made at some point.
05:37:14 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], what's the type that the thing is returning? Just "Done!"? Then text
05:37:15 <hppavilion[1]> But the POST goes through, nothing comes back it appears
05:38:40 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: So the $('#commands').html(response); line isn't doing what I expected of it
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05:51:35 <hppavilion[1]> Just have to hook up some Neural Nets and Traineres
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06:15:53 <MDude> WHat are you working on?
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06:53:37 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/allchars.htm now has some hangul (after the kanji, there's 224 of them)
06:54:42 <\oren\> I think my lines are too rounded maybe
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06:57:05 <zzo38> How to adjust the kerning of the fonts used in Firefox on Ubuntu?
06:58:25 <\oren\> CSS letter-spacing property?
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07:00:21 <zzo38> No, I want to modify the font metric files globally across all programs that use them (although I don't have any other program that uses them as far as I know)
07:00:41 <izabera> i just broke weechat by trying to paste one of those charactersूृ
07:03:23 <\oren\> does that break everyone's chat?
07:04:05 <\oren\> zzo38: I suppose you'd have to use fontforge to do that
07:05:17 <\oren\> allow problems to be stated as stoies
07:06:01 <hppavilion[2]> Preferably, I would have no normal operators at all
07:06:33 <\oren\> ok how about "A right triangle has two right-angle sides as lengths 4 and 5. what is the triangle's area?"
07:07:08 <hppavilion[2]> \oren\: That still seems incredibly difficult to parse. Roughly on the level of "Solving english"
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07:08:17 <zzo38> Shouldn't there be a SQLite extension to edit font metrics?
07:08:31 <\oren\> how about "calculate the monthy payment for a 30 year mortgage on 1 million with an interest rate of 0.5 percent"
07:08:59 <hppavilion[2]> \oren\: I think you know the difference between reasonably solvable and borderline impossible problems.
07:08:59 <zzo38> There is virtual tables support.
07:09:24 <\oren\> hppavilion[2]: joke's on you! that particular one works in Hound!
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07:10:19 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I should develop a simple DB software in python and document its development in a webpage
07:15:55 <zzo38> AmigaMML:XISYNTH::TeX:METAFONT
07:18:33 <\oren\> http://postimg.org/image/oxprvhumr/
07:32:26 <zzo38> \oren\: Whatever message you posted it does not break my chat, although, I am using xterm.
07:33:01 <zzo38> (And the IRC client knows nothing about Unicode; it just passes the data as is)
07:33:36 <hppavilion[1]> And a Javascript line $('.output-0.01').val(response);
07:34:37 <hppavilion[1]> I know it gets executed. I know that response is equal to "Done!". It doesn't update the input
07:37:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Silly Emplosions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45842&oldid=45800 * Zzo38 * (+97)
07:38:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Silly Emplosions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45843&oldid=45842 * Zzo38 * (+77)
07:40:23 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], an <input>?
07:40:33 <Sgeo> I think that requires an attribute to be changed?
07:40:51 <Sgeo> Oh .val() is meant to work with <input> too
07:42:36 <hppavilion[1]> That's the code that isn't working. Almost identical to the code I sent earlier, but being adjusted so multiple interpreters can be used based on the id of the form
07:44:16 <Sgeo> Can you add a console.log($('#output-'+tn))
07:44:25 <Sgeo> To make sure it's retrieving the element properly?
07:46:19 <hppavilion[1]> Object { length: 0, prevObject: Object, context: HTMLDocument → 127.0.0.1, selector: "#output-0.01" }
07:46:28 <Sgeo> That's not getting it correctly
07:46:39 <Sgeo> length should be 1, I think
07:47:46 <Sgeo> console.log(tn)
07:47:47 <hppavilion[1]> (This is another just-hack-together-some-js project where the beauty lies on the backend
07:49:02 <Sgeo> Does $("#output-0.01") work in the console?
07:49:55 <hppavilion[1]> Object { length: 0, prevObject: Object, context: HTMLDocument → 127.0.0.1, selector: "#output-0.01" }
07:50:19 <Sgeo> What does $("textarea") give for length?
07:51:00 <hppavilion[1]> And interestingly, it lists <textarea#output-0.01>
07:52:02 <hppavilion[1]> And I just tried adding textarea to before #output in the thing and it didn't work
07:52:32 <hppavilion[1]> Imma try changing the text area output-0.01 to a class
07:52:58 <Sgeo> Trying it locally
07:53:07 <Sgeo> document.getElementById works
07:54:09 <Sgeo> To use jQuery functions on it, you'll need to wrap that call in $()
07:54:24 <Sgeo> Or go native, that's what I prefer >.>
07:54:54 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: I've done native JS before. I use them pretty much interchangably when I do do JS, really it just varies by how I feel.
07:55:39 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], I figured it out
07:55:44 <Sgeo> Something to do with the.... OH
07:55:55 <Sgeo> That . in the number, means it's looking for a class
08:00:20 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: Now I just need to make it work for multiple forms with class="cmdwin" xD
08:02:06 <\oren\> o btw, I added 菜落葉薬表要覚観負貨貯費賞起路身軍転軽輪
08:06:53 <hppavilion[1]> I have it working such that everything is in order EXCEPT it always puts the output one time in the same box
08:07:06 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose I could just have a fixed-position box that follows you as you scroll...
08:08:42 <Sgeo> Event handler on all forms, that when invoked, get's the id and passes the id of the form's textarea to the event handler
08:09:12 <Sgeo> Although I guess you're doing a one form many textarea thing, which is possibly not ideal, what if multiple textareas are filled in
08:09:29 <Sgeo> Actually I have no diea what you're doing
08:14:22 <hppavilion[1]> Each form is the software in a different stage. The forms only appear after that part of the program has been designed and implemented.
08:15:20 <hppavilion[1]> "So next we're going to implement relational operators"
08:15:50 <hppavilion[1]> Then there's a form where you can enter commands and try it out
08:21:36 <hppavilion[1]> OK, progress can be viewed at http://206.174.0.58:81/
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09:14:13 <b_jonas> \oren\: I dunno, the hangul with o in them don't look good in your font to me, because the vowel is touching the final too much.
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09:40:53 <zzo38> See your opinion of what are many of my new Magic: the Gathering cards, including now I made up a few split cards too. So far there seem not the place to post user comments, except possibly on the IRC but then it isn't all store together at once
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09:51:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: f2c: not found
09:54:15 <zzo38> Have you kept track of all of the recent comprehensive rules changes for Magic: the Gathering even if you do not play the game?
09:54:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: I tried to, but it turns out that I missed some, so I'll have to re-read the bulletins
09:55:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: in particular, I got very surprised that Daru Stinger had gotten errataed back a few years ago (technically that's an Oracle change, not a comp rules change)
09:58:06 <zzo38> They have all of the changes on Yawgatog too, which is what I checked; they have Oracle changes there too. It can be used when working with puzzles; I always include a rule datestamp on puzzles for this reason. Someone else told me they made a puzzle but then it stopped working because they changed the rules, but I already thought of this ahead of time, and yet it has not happened to me.
10:00:51 <zzo38> There is good reason why Daru Stinger should be changed back though, which is why it was changed back to the old version.
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10:07:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: I preferred him as a Human. The other daru are still Human.
10:08:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: Making him non-human seems like a power errata, which they claim generally try to avoid unless the card would be really broken otherwise; even though they claim it was for easier playing because the reminder text on the printed card says "Soldier")
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10:09:54 <zzo38> I can see the problem though with the powerful of the card with amplify ability
10:09:55 <b_jonas> And it's not only the Daru from onslaught that are Human, but the Daru Clerics from Legions.
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10:10:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: it may be more powerful than originally intended, but it's not really powerful compared to M:tG these days.
10:10:33 <zzo38> It could be fixed by printing that card with a different picture, is also some way
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10:11:25 <zzo38> (So that no subtype other than "Soldier" would fit then?)
10:12:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's still called Daru, and it would be strange anyway to have a white card to which no racial subtype fits
10:13:15 <zzo38> Isn't there one in one of the more modern sets though? (I think the set is Phyrexia?)
10:14:03 <zzo38> A white creature card to which no racial subtype fits.
10:14:20 <b_jonas> yes, there are, but they're rare
10:14:45 <b_jonas> there's the old black Nameless Race of course, which lost its subtypes at Lorwyn
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10:15:34 <zzo38> Yes I know, that one now has no subtype at all, but it is an old card and is black; I meant a more modern card.
10:15:48 <b_jonas> then there are black zombies and skeletons, some of which have a race subtype, and some don't, in what seems to me like an inconsistent way
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10:17:11 <zzo38> If the bones do not form any other creature then the other one does not seem applicable, can be one thing, but that is clearly not always the case
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10:18:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: but look at Legions of Lim-Dul, who by the flavor text are corpses animated by Lim-Dul the necromancer from the bodies of the Order of the White Shield, and the Order of the White Shield is a Human Knight.
10:18:34 <b_jonas> yet the Legions are not Human.
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10:19:21 <b_jonas> (This is the leader of the Order of the White Shield who is better known these days from Luminesce)
10:21:10 <b_jonas> There's another Order from some other plane to confuse the matters though
10:22:09 <b_jonas> Order of the Stars, who carry prominent shields on the art and flavor text.
10:25:59 <zzo38> How is the Order of the Stars relevant to that though?
10:28:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: not really, it just confused me because it's an Order with white shields
10:29:01 <zzo38> Yes, but their shields have stars on it
10:29:19 <zzo38> They are also not a knight
10:30:00 <b_jonas> yes, and they're on Ravnica, whereas the Order of the White Shield is apparently on Dominaria or wherever Ice Age plays
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11:47:32 <zzo38> I have made up the calculation on the paper to figure out 1+2+4+8+...=-1 and 1+4+16+64+...=-1/3 and 1-1+1-1+1-1+...=1/2 and 1/2+1/4+1/8+1/16+1/32+...=1
11:48:38 <zzo38> Some people said the first few is wrong because it is a divergent series, but the same method is in use for the convergent series too it seem like?
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12:12:46 <int-e> Well, people are right; one usually relies on reordering terms in a series, which only works for absolutely convergent series... Otoh, f(x) = 1/(1-x) is the analytic continuation of f(x) = 1 + x + x^2 + ... beyond |x| < 1, so under some circumstances, you may get correct answers that way.
12:13:20 <lifthrasiir> in general, the sum of divergent series is less defined (i.e. not as definitive as 1+1) than the sum of convergent series
12:13:51 <lifthrasiir> 1+2+4+8+...=-1 is one way to assign the "sum" to such divergent series
12:23:02 <zzo38> It seem to me that in order to reorder terms it must be done like: a+b+c+d+...=(b+c+d+...)+a=(c+d+...)+a+b=(a+c+d+...)+b=b+a+c+d+... but this won't let you to reorder or regroup infinite sets of terms as the rules for addition don't do stuff like that.
12:25:24 <izabera> is there a smart way to solve lights out?
12:26:38 <myname> well, there are boring algorithms that depend on knowing information for specific fiekd sizes
12:27:14 <int-e> izabera: sure; at its heart it's a system of linear equations over Z_2.
12:31:28 <int-e> Oh and the system is described by a band matrix (since no row (or column) depends only on decisions in the neighbouring rows (or columns), so for an n x m rectangle, rather than working with matrices of dimension nm x nm, one can quickly reduce that to n x n (or m x m, whichever is smaller).
12:32:18 <int-e> (for humans: once you've fixed the choices for the bottom row, all other choices are forced)
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12:51:09 <izabera> i've read what to do on a 5x5 board, but what if it's a NxM
12:51:17 <izabera> and what if i need an optimal solution
13:08:17 <int-e> damn I had some code for this, somewhere... but probably gave it a meaningful filename like "t.py" (and I don't even remember whether it was python or some other programming language)... and quite possibly lost it
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13:56:21 <myname> does finding the solution has to be efficient?
14:00:06 <myname> basic idea: start toggling from line 2 on exactly where there is light on the line above it
14:00:14 <myname> remember where you toggled
14:00:38 <myname> that will result in a board with only light in the lowest line
14:02:59 <myname> now, for each light in the bottom row make a temporary board with only that light, drag it up the same way, you will end up with toggles you can do from up to down in the original board
14:03:23 <myname> add every toggle per position mod 2
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14:16:08 <boily> first time running my washing machine on extra small, cold water, delicate cycle.
14:16:15 <boily> it makes weird noises.
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14:19:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45844&oldid=45841 * Luis Mendo * (+54) /* Specification */
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15:00:51 <quintopia> myname: just solve the linear equation, in the case the transition matrix is invertible. In the case it is only semi-invertible, you can solve the independent subspace
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15:55:14 <b_jonas> `learn Jander was killed, or deactivated permanently, depending on which side you ask.
15:55:18 <HackEgo> Learned 'jander': Jander was killed, or deactivated permanently, depending on which side you ask.
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15:56:40 <b_jonas> `learn Jander was murdered, or deactivated permanently, depending on which side you ask.
15:56:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'jander': Jander was murdered, or deactivated permanently, depending on which side you ask.
16:00:29 <b_jonas> `learn Loodun Antyok demonstrates how to play a lawful character the exact opposite way from the lawful stupid archetype.
16:00:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'loodun': Loodun Antyok demonstrates how to play a lawful character the exact opposite way from the lawful stupid archetype.
16:00:41 <HackEgo> Loodun Antyok demonstrates how to play a lawful character the exact opposite way from the lawful stupid archetype.
16:01:42 <int-e> Oh no, do Hamiltonian circuits have anything to to with the Formula One series?
16:02:02 <b_jonas> int-e: and quantum mechanics, and quaternions.
16:02:14 <b_jonas> int-e: they're all named of the same brilliant mathematician
16:03:19 <b_jonas> `learn Hari wears an identical suit every day. Or the same suit? The latter glitch would be a sign of adjustments on the Matrix.
16:03:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'hari': Hari wears an identical suit every day. Or the same suit? The latter glitch would be a sign of adjustments on the Matrix.
16:03:52 <b_jonas> `learn Eto is the ageless laughing first minister.
16:03:56 <HackEgo> Learned 'eto': Eto is the ageless laughing first minister.
16:05:10 <int-e> b_jonas: I think you missed the bad joke.
16:08:29 <int-e> Unless I'm missing a connection between William Rowan and Lewis Carl Davidson... hmm.
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16:30:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45845&oldid=45844 * Luis Mendo * (-3343) /* Specification */
16:32:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45846&oldid=45845 * Luis Mendo * (-415) /* Compiler */
16:33:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45847&oldid=45846 * Luis Mendo * (+1) /* Compiler */
16:34:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45848&oldid=45847 * Luis Mendo * (+11) /* Specification */
16:34:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45849&oldid=45848 * Luis Mendo * (+9) /* Compiler */
16:35:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45850&oldid=45849 * Luis Mendo * (+6) /* Specification */
16:36:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45851&oldid=45850 * Luis Mendo * (+0) /* Compiler */
16:36:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45852&oldid=45851 * Luis Mendo * (+0) /* Compiler */
16:37:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45853&oldid=45852 * Luis Mendo * (-1) /* Introduction */
16:37:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45854&oldid=45853 * Luis Mendo * (-6) /* Specification */
16:39:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45855&oldid=45854 * Luis Mendo * (+25)
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16:57:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45856&oldid=45566 * Luis Mendo * (+32) Added entry for MATL language
16:59:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Luis Mendo]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45857 * Luis Mendo * (+101) Created page with "I have created the esolang [[MATL]] (2015), a language based on MATLAB and suitable for code golfing."
17:02:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Luis Mendo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45858&oldid=45857 * Luis Mendo * (+38)
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17:19:54 <\oren\_> Ok, so I'm making the finals more sqiashed downward, so that the horizontal medials will fit
17:20:53 <b_jonas> \oren\_: instead, move the medials so they touch in the direction where they're smaller
17:21:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45859&oldid=45855 * Luis Mendo * (+29) /* Specification */
17:21:44 <b_jonas> \oren\_: that is, "o" and "yo" should be able to touch some initials, whereas "u" and "yu" should be able to touch the finals
17:22:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45860&oldid=45859 * Luis Mendo * (+29) /* Compiler */
17:22:31 <b_jonas> \oren\_: I also tried to comment on the Deseret letters on your font:
17:22:50 <b_jonas> \oren\_: the letter "s" (both upper and lower case) is mirrored from how it should be, I believe,
17:23:27 <b_jonas> \oren\_: and in the fontdemo.html, you should change the line breaks so that the letters take up 4 lines instead of 5, and each corresponding lower case letter is two lines below the upper case on
17:24:21 <b_jonas> \oren\_: but I could be wrong. I don't like Deseret.
17:25:16 <\oren\_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_alphabet#/media/File:Deseret_second_book.jpg <-- I think I used this amage as a reference
17:25:29 <b_jonas> `perl -ebinmode STDOUT,"encoding(utf8)"; print "\x{1041d}"
17:27:14 <b_jonas> what's with your terminal?
17:27:18 <b_jonas> `perl -ebinmode STDOUT,"encoding(utf8)"; print "\x{41d}"
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17:27:39 <HackEgo> [U+041D CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER EN]
17:28:00 <\oren\_> I copied that from the deseret ess
17:28:32 <HackEgo> [U+002E FULL STOP] [U+002E FULL STOP]
17:28:57 <\oren\_> and on input it appears to replace the surrogate pairs with dots
17:29:47 <b_jonas> \oren\_: according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Deseret_capital_Es.svg , the letter s has the left end connected to the top loop, and the right end to the bottom loop
17:30:06 <b_jonas> \oren\_: in your font it sort of seems like the opposite, though it's hard to tell from those few pixels
17:31:43 <\oren\_> I see, I'll see what I can do
17:34:13 <\oren\_> oh its god damn tmux fucking up unicide
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17:35:38 <\oren\_> and this bug will be solved essentially between in 10 years and never
17:37:44 <b_jonas> \oren\_: use screen instead. (a recent version, not the fifteen year buggy old version that spawned the development of tmux as an alternative.)
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18:08:10 <zzo38> Unicode is especially terrible for any kind of grid-based display, but I thought of some way similar to what someone else has suggested, for "universal terminal-based character coding", although the width of a string is now a bit more complicated than just strlen, rather each byte has a width of 1 or 0 depending on the value of that byte, therefore allowing many more single-width non-ASCII characters.
18:09:48 <zzo38> The format is always a code byte followed by a bank byte, and there is no right-to-left, no complex scripts, etc. Therefore it cannot be use with Hebrew, although Japanese writing is possible.
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18:11:14 <lifthrasiir> probably it is now time to consider ligatures...
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18:15:12 <dr_ais523> for anyone who's wondering what I've been up to esolang-wise, darcs clone http://nethack4.org/media/ssapmmn (not finished yet though)
18:15:48 <b_jonas> dr_ais523: zzo38 has been complaining about visual artifacts he'd been seeing in the pdf version of your thesis, with some pdf viewer
18:16:37 <dr_ais523> b_jonas: hmm, it's just standard pdflatex
18:17:26 <zzo38> dr_ais523: The lowercase Greek alphabets (and only lowercase Greek) is slanted to the left. I am using Firefox to view it.
18:17:46 <dr_ais523> zzo38: ah right, lowercase Greek is known to have issues in the default LaTeX configuration
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18:45:16 <tswett> zzo38: I dunno, I'd think you would want to do that by just adding metadata to each Unicode character specifying how many columns wide it is.
18:46:11 <dr_ais523> tswett: isn't that potentially context-dependent?
18:46:44 <tswett> Do you have an example?
18:47:20 <dr_ais523> fi is a well-known one that works in English
18:47:41 <dr_ais523> there are other languages where ligatures are much more important
18:48:14 <tswett> Well, in English, wouldn't "fi" always be two columns wide, and the ligature also two columns wide?
18:48:25 <dr_ais523> the ligature's one column wide in some monospaced fonts
18:48:55 <b_jonas> dr_ais523: lots of stupid pdfs
18:48:56 <zzo38> I think in 2600. I wanted to write a postcard to them to tell them not to do that
18:48:56 <dr_ais523> (Pokémon red/blue has a 's ligature that's one column wide in its monospaced font)
18:49:09 <b_jonas> where some software auto-translates "fi" to that ligature at render
18:49:12 <tswett> I saw a one-wide "fi" ligature in a Homestuck album notes.
18:49:31 <b_jonas> a 's ligature? interesting
18:49:52 <dr_ais523> presumably because the apostrophe looked ugly if you gave it a whole column to itself
18:50:03 <zzo38> Ligatures should be defined by font metrics instead of built-in to the software.
18:50:05 <b_jonas> dr_ais523: I thought it would be more like to save screen space
18:52:06 <int-e> hmm 160x144 pixels, not too shabby :)
18:52:20 <zzo38> Some games will put two letters on one 8x8 tile
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19:34:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pig]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45861&oldid=45278 * LegionMammal978 * (+958) created interpreter
19:44:16 <FireFly> the 'fi' ligature is one column wide for me
19:44:55 <FireFly> There's that widespread implementation of wcwidth that I think only uses Unicode blocks to define width, and going by that fi would be a single column I think
19:45:41 <FireFly> 'firefly' ← for your ligature width testing purposes
19:46:45 <FireFly> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/wcwidth.c the wcwdith implementation I meant
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20:33:49 <int-e> finest fluffy waffle affinity
20:40:18 <HackEgo> [U+FB01 LATIN SMALL LIGATURE FI] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+FB06 LATIN SMALL LIGATURE ST]
20:40:40 -!- tswett has set topic: The international hub for esoteric KRF design and deployment. | finest fluffy waffle affinity | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
20:43:00 <lifthrasiir> https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/commit/b7c5c43#diff-c37314f89a3481e2da775620e88abc72R526
20:54:23 <mauris_> lifthrasiir: this is a pretty font :>
20:54:52 <mauris_> i would get rid of the "off" dots in the braille pattern glyphs
21:02:56 <mauris_> lifthrasiir: fwiw, cyrillic lowercase be (U+0431 б) generally has an ascender; it looks sort of weird without one
21:12:48 <FireFly> What was the URL to the font demo, again?
21:13:03 <lifthrasiir> nowadays https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/live
21:14:08 -!- int-e has set topic: The international hub for esoteric KRF design and deployment. | Effi's finest fluffy waffles | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
21:14:37 <int-e> (using a name is kind of cheating, but I like it better than "affinity")
21:18:27 <int-e> oh it's an anagram of firefly.
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21:19:06 <dr_ais523> FireFly: that's the unligatured version though
21:19:41 <dr_ais523> apparently there isn't an Fi ligature, at least on my compose key
21:20:16 <int-e> > text . sort $ "firefly" -- not sure... worth a tryt
21:20:21 <FireFly> eryfifl I'm guessing, but I can't be bothered to check if fi is actually before fl
21:27:32 <zzo38> The wcwidth function for my own format is easy; it is: x?x&32768?2:1:0 (Note that sequences that include control characters can have unpredictable widths though; we don't include those here.)
21:28:55 <zzo38> However you must convert between wide and multibyte formats; the multibyte encoding for 0-127 is one byte, for 256-65535 is two bytes in small-endian format; not all wide character numbers are in use though.
21:29:24 <FireFly> I think having full-width characters occupy two cells makes a lot of sense, considering single-character cells are often roughly 2:1 height/width
21:29:50 <FireFly> and one would want full-width CJK glyphs to be roughly square
21:30:11 <zzo38> To calculate the width of a non-control multibyte string, just count all bytes in range 32-255; each of those bytes takes up one cell while bytes 0-31 take up zero cells each.
21:30:52 <FireFly> So there's a correspondence between the length of the encoded codepoint and the rendered width of it?
21:32:46 <zzo38> Also, if the first byte of a character is 128-255 then exactly one more byte follows, if 0-127 then it is only one byte long and no other byte follows.
21:33:31 <FireFly> I don't know if I like tying the encoding and rendering like that, but it could be a nifty trick for old platforms
21:34:10 <zzo38> I think it is good for terminal encoding and grid-based displays. For typesetting it is bad though.
21:35:43 <zzo38> For typesetting, the font metric file should define all stuff about moving cursor, ligature, kerning, selecting glyphs, etc; and the character encoding should not do so.
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22:07:49 <lifthrasiir> 13147 characters so far (up from 12914 characters right after the addition of hangul syllables)
22:08:17 <lifthrasiir> probably I'll work on more latin-like characters next week
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22:51:40 <mauris_> now i'm trying to look for a shorter phrase that has all of the ligatures in the topic in it
22:52:07 <mauris_> "stiffly fix buffi fluff"! ~hardly a phrase~
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23:07:18 <dr_ais523> fizzie: is the wiki sending emails correctly? I've been trying to change my email address associated with my account to ais523@nethack4.org but it isn't sending the confirmation email
23:07:35 <dr_ais523> or if it is, it's getting lost somewhere which isn't my spam folder unless the email has a very strange from address
23:10:04 <dr_ais523> huh, AWIB was apparently created for a course named "DD2464 - Bigger Advanced, Individual Course in Computer Science"
23:10:26 <dr_ais523> also the AWIB docs consistently use the "brainfuck has a lowercase b except at the start of a sentence" rule
23:11:18 <shachaf> dr_ais523: congratulations
23:11:34 <dr_ais523> did you read the thesis, btw? if not, some of my other online friends beat you to it
23:11:38 <shachaf> i didn't end up reading your thesis on time :'(
23:11:50 <dr_ais523> oh wow, and it forms the possessive of "Müller" as "Müllers", which is correct in German
23:12:04 <dr_ais523> I have a suspicion that this project was an expert-level trolling attempt
23:13:35 <dr_ais523> meanwhile, it strikes me that ssapmmn might be quite good at optimizing brainfuck too
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23:14:01 <dr_ais523> after all, minsky machines are basically bignum brainfuck confined to balanced loops only
23:14:19 <dr_ais523> although you'd have to somehow analyze the code to convert it into balanced-loops first, which is likely nontrivial
23:15:10 <dr_ais523> although I've also been focusing a lot on "if you would produce a negative number, produce zero instead" arithmetic
23:15:22 <dr_ais523> which is a) better for implementation in most esolangs, and b) really confusing, especially if you're used to normal arithmetic
23:15:40 <dr_ais523> x-1+1 is not equivalent to x, for example
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23:18:58 <dr_ais523> it figured out how to write a modulus even without me telling it that the modulus operation existed
23:19:10 <dr_ais523> (using code of the form ((x / y) * y) - x)
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23:20:44 <zzo38> If such optimization if it can be worked with brainfuck can also be made to work with LLVM then it can also optimize brainfuck program compiled into a LLVM code and possibly other programs too, since some program might have a few similar features
23:22:47 <dr_ais523> zzo38: well ssapmmn uses an SSA representation internally, which would be easier to target at LLVM IR than to most other languages (including C)
23:22:55 <dr_ais523> the main problem is that LLVM doesn't straightforwardly have bignums
23:25:50 <zzo38> I know those thing, although possibly if modification can be done to work even without bignums
23:26:33 <dr_ais523> well, I'm planning to infer which counters don't actually need to be bignum because they have a fixed maximum
23:26:44 <dr_ais523> but you need some bignums to be able to do infinite storage (although often they can be replaced with stacks or tapes)
23:26:50 <quintopia> dr_ais523: i take it this indicates a successful defense?
23:30:56 <dr_ais523> quintopia: it's what I'm currently workign on, it isn't finished yet
23:31:04 <dr_ais523> but it's basically a hyper-optimized minsky machine compiler
23:31:14 <dr_ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Portable_Minsky_Machine_Notation is what it takes as input
23:31:37 <dr_ais523> my goal with the output is to be able to run an Underlambda interpreter, written in PMMN, with a good level of performance
23:31:51 <quintopia> which thesis were you talking about?
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23:32:32 <dr_ais523> quintopia: http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/6120/1/Smith15PhD.pdf
23:33:29 <quintopia> ... and what were you talking about bf and mullers?
23:34:15 <fizzie> dr_ais523: It may be broken. I have vague recollections of it being broken earlier.
23:34:20 <shachaf> Is there a name for f(x) = exp(abs(log(x)))?
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23:35:02 <dr_ais523> shachaf: wow, that's quite the piecewise function
23:35:14 <dr_ais523> it's, what, f(x) = x for x>1, and f(x) = 1/x for x<1?
23:35:28 <shachaf> Hmm, I didn't think to graph it.
23:35:30 <quintopia> so many things to read while i'm away from internet
23:36:20 <dr_ais523> I'm not sure why you'd name that function
23:36:21 <shachaf> If you're e.g. measuring a ratio between two things but you don't care about which direction it's in.
23:36:35 <shachaf> Well, it's a multiplicative analogue of abs.
23:38:08 <quintopia> oh i remeber a physics problem where the answer was either 19 or 1/19 depending on whether the heavier weight was on the right
23:40:43 <quintopia> i was talking to a dude who wants to invent "the most meta language ever" and seemed to count difficulty of implementing anything more usable in it as a measuring stick. he literally applauded at 3sp and figuratively cried that it would have a BCT implementation
23:41:34 <dr_ais523> quintopia: show him The Amnesiac From Minsk level 4
23:41:51 <dr_ais523> 3SP is, sadly, easier than I thought it would be
23:42:56 <dr_ais523> huh, the esolangs.org page is now the #3 entry on duckduckgo for a search for "three star programmer"
23:43:04 <fizzie> dr_ais523: There are some email messages stuck in the mail queue for the address you mention.
23:43:16 <fizzie> One of them has been there for 58 hours.
23:43:24 <dr_ais523> what's the reason they're stuck? or isn't it clear
23:43:40 <dr_ais523> I know my mailserver's working because I received a reply to that address to an email I sent from that address a few hours ago
23:43:52 <fizzie> It's not clear from plain "mailq"; I'll see if I can get something more verbose out of it. I'm not that familiar with Exim, I'm more of a Postfix person.
23:43:55 <mauris_> nice, "The particular approach taken here was a consequence of trying to optimize a Three Star Programmer implementation ..." which was "created when, while working on another esolang, ..."
23:44:03 <mauris_> need a tree visualization here
23:44:35 <HackEgo> nooooooooodl is the correct spelling
23:45:13 <dr_ais523> mauris_: fwiw the original esolang that sparked all this off was meant to have analog memory
23:45:24 <dr_ais523> but I couldn't pin the details down
23:45:33 <dr_ais523> I ended up inventing 3SP along the way though
23:45:40 <dr_ais523> which really rekindled my esolangs interest, mostly in the minsky directoin
23:46:34 <dr_ais523> also I'm surprised that there hasn't been much work into writing minsky machine programs
23:46:41 <fizzie> dr_ais523: 2015-12-12 18:42:32 ais523@nethack4.org R=dnslookup T=remote_smtp defer (-44): SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:<ais523@nethack4.org>: host nethack4.org [185.26.125.102]: 450 4.1.8 <codu@c1105889-5122.cloudatcost.com>: Sender address rejected: Domain not found
23:47:05 <fizzie> dr_ais523: I think it's trying to send messages with an envelope-sender of codu@c1105889-5122.cloudatcost.com and that hostname doesn't resolve.
23:47:24 <fizzie> Possibly a stale name in some configuration file.
23:47:26 <dr_ais523> ah right, so my server's refusing to receive messages from a server that doesn't exist
23:47:35 <dr_ais523> "codu" strongly implies a Gregor connection, normally
23:48:13 <fizzie> Seems that /etc/mailname is set to that.
23:49:16 <fizzie> It probably used to be a working name for the host at some point in time.
23:49:47 <fizzie> Annnnnd, in fact, it's what the IP reverse-resolves to, still.
23:50:14 <fizzie> But it doesn't forward-resolve back to the IP. So I think it's a cloudatcost screw-up.
23:50:41 <dr_ais523> maybe they just don't want people sending emails
23:51:13 <fizzie> Pointing the reverse DNS entry to a non-working name would be a weird way of blocking that.
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23:51:55 <dr_ais523> it'd be like using -fPIE in order to prevent NetHack 4 using shared libraries
23:52:01 <dr_ais523> which is a workaround that someone I know actually uses
23:52:46 <fizzie> I could change mailname to some actual DNS name that points at the right place, although I'm a bit worried some mail servers (and/or spam filtering rulesets) might treat that suboptimally, because it would be a different name than what the IP reverse-resolves to.
23:52:55 <fizzie> Then again, it could hardly work less well than the current setup.
23:53:12 <fizzie> (On the third hand, they may fix the current setup at some point too.)
23:54:01 <dr_ais523> I guess I could request you to send me a copy of the email it's trying to send via some other means, so that I could confirm my email; OTOH having a confirmed email is mostly pointless if the wiki can't send to it
23:54:31 <dr_ais523> does cloudatcost allow you to set the rDNS for the IPs yourself?
23:54:53 <fizzie> I don't know. If it does, I wouldn't have access to that.
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23:58:50 <dr_ais523> it's weird having created so many languages recently that I forgot about some of them
23:59:42 <dr_ais523> nice to see that Three Star Programmer is catching on, though
00:01:32 <fizzie> I've possibly forwarded you the most recent confirmation email, and it may be that later emails would be accepted now that I've switched the mailname.
00:03:53 <dr_ais523> nothing's arrived yet, but email can be slow anyway
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00:05:31 <fizzie> According to *my* mail server, it was "250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as ADD20E25B" by nethack4.org. It'll be from me. Might look spammy for all I know.
00:07:53 <dr_ais523> not counting the spam dated next tuesday, though, I haven't had any email go to the spam folder for half an hour
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00:45:22 <APic> dr_ais523: So where can i download Your Dissertation? ☺
00:45:41 <dr_ais523> APic: http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/6120/1/Smith15PhD.pdf
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01:09:10 <hppavilion1> IMHO, HTML is reaching the point of being outdated. I think I'll make a new-and-improved advanced markup language designed for browsers. It'll never be used, but it'll be fun to make.
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01:18:23 <oerjan> <\oren\_> oh its god damn tmux fucking up unicide <-- no problems with that character with tmux + irssi here
01:18:54 <dr_ais523> but not an "I don't understand this" square
01:18:57 <oerjan> @tell \oren\_ <\oren\_> oh its god damn tmux fucking up unicide <-- no problems with that character with tmux + irssi here
01:19:03 <HackEgo> [U+1041D DESERET CAPITAL LETTER ES]
01:19:10 <dr_ais523> oh, presumably it's just not in my font
01:19:31 <oerjan> i suppose technically it's a little cut off on the right.
01:20:07 <oerjan> dr_ais523: i guess i should say congrats!
01:20:57 <shachaf> oerjan: are you dr_oerjan?
01:21:34 <shachaf> when i look for information about oerjan i find information about his pal instead
01:21:52 <shachaf> "I treated myself with MDMA and psychedelics (Pål’s story)"
01:25:14 <int-e> . o O ( "dr" is short for "dabbling researcher" )
01:27:07 <oerjan> all those ligatures in the topic don't show up to me, though :(
01:28:01 <int-e> surprisingly they do work in my combination (xterm with "fixed" font; ssh; screen; irssi)
01:29:24 <oerjan> oh wait some of them work
01:29:27 <FireFly> Here's what they render as for me, by the way: http://xen.firefly.nu/up/2015-12-13_022910.png
01:29:36 <dr_ais523> that st ligature looks ridiculous in this font
01:29:45 <dr_ais523> because the s is ligaturing onto the top of the t
01:29:53 <dr_ais523> it'd fit better connecting to the left of the crossbar
01:30:19 <FireFly> Yeah, I think that is how the st ligature usually works
01:30:30 <FireFly> or with a fancy swirl to latch onto the top
01:30:34 <dr_ais523> why even ligate it if you're going to do that?
01:30:42 <dr_ais523> it doesn't make it more condensed, just stupider
01:31:22 <FireFly> But it does seem rather pointless
01:31:29 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/effi.png
01:31:53 <FireFly> I guess it's a ligature because it's a common digraph, maybe. A bit like how & stems from an 'et' ligature
01:32:20 <dr_ais523> then why isn't there a th ligature?
01:32:28 <int-e> quite legible given a 6 pixel width...
01:32:29 <dr_ais523> I was testing out azip again recently in another channel
01:32:43 <dr_ais523> and noticed that it had compressed "github" as "[g][i][th][u][b]"
01:32:44 <FireFly> Good question, th would be a good candidate I guess
01:33:46 <dr_ais523> a compression algo I was working on ages ago
01:33:59 <dr_ais523> by the end it was beating bz2 for my test programs, but losing to lzma
01:34:24 <dr_ais523> -rw-r--r-- 1 ais523 ais523 38107 Oct 23 2010 azip.c
01:34:31 <FireFly> what is the overall design like?
01:34:37 <dr_ais523> also, I had the harrowing experience of looking at my own five-year-old code, and discovering that it was actually quite readable
01:34:57 <dr_ais523> but basically it recursively defines new "letters" in terms of pairs of other letters
01:35:08 <dr_ais523> then eventually once it's got a large enough dictionary of letters, uses them to write out the output
01:35:21 <dr_ais523> in that example, it was using "th" as a definition and the other five letters raw
01:35:55 <FireFly> I came across a compression algorithm that worked like that last summer
01:36:06 <FireFly> I think, unless I misunderstood something. I'll find it
01:37:52 <FireFly> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte_pair_encoding Like this?
01:38:38 <dr_ais523> FireFly: the differences are that a) I do it recursively (so some of the "letters" can end up really long); b) I can go well over 255 letters used
01:38:55 <dr_ais523> ah, it mentions the recursive use too
01:39:04 <dr_ais523> so it's basically that principle except that I don't have to waste a whole 8 bits per letter
01:39:22 <FireFly> I reversed a compression format using that encoding... it was.. interesting
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01:39:36 <FireFly> Pretty hard to follow what was going on since not much at all was legible
01:39:46 <FireFly> (I was studying compressed plaintext)
01:39:47 <dr_ais523> it uses a kind of "pre-calculated" huffman encoding where the frequency of each letter's assumed to be proportional to the cube root of the order in which it appears in the input
01:39:55 <FireFly> compressed English text, that is
01:40:14 <dr_ais523> but yes, I'd say azip's an evolved version of that algo
01:40:38 <dr_ais523> there are various improvements that you can make withotu changing the decompressor, in general it's quite amenable to the use of "better" compressors
01:40:59 <FireFly> That's always a nice property
01:41:02 <oerjan> <dr_ais523> it figured out how to write a modulus even without me telling it that the modulus operation existed <-- so you're saying it's ssapient?
01:41:21 <dr_ais523> oerjan: no, it was just an accumulation of small optimization rules
01:41:44 <dr_ais523> admittedly "x - ((x / y) * y)" doesn't really roll of the tongue
01:41:52 <shachaf> oerjan: is boily's mapole sapient?
01:42:47 <oerjan> shachaf: of course, that's why every mapole comes with a syrup bucket
01:43:11 <shachaf> that seems a bit problematic
01:43:47 <FireFly> is the mapole made of maple?
01:43:54 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
01:44:04 <oerjan> only if you forget to collect it for too long
01:48:16 <FireFly> a man with a plan and a mapole.
01:49:38 <shachaf> I'm not sure how to complete it to a palindrome, either.
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02:01:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GOTO++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45862&oldid=43954 * Tuzepoito * (+3167) Update and cleanup
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02:13:25 <zzo38> Now they say they will add the colorless mana symbol {C} which can be paid only by colorless mana, and the corresponding basic land which has no subtype and does not count as a "traditional" basic land. Maybe they would tought of it when changing the chaos symbol to {CHAOS} instead of just {C}?
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02:13:59 <shachaf> zzo38: Where do they say that?
02:14:37 <zzo38> That is what I read recently today
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02:19:42 <FireFly> Sounds rather confusing to me
02:25:45 <hppavilion1> It's interesting how DataBASEs follow ACID
02:26:16 <hppavilion1> (Or is it BASE? I know that both ACID and BASE are used, one as a replacement for the other, but I'm not sure which is which)
02:27:59 <shachaf> zzo38: Where did you read it?
02:30:39 <int-e> "Eventually consistent services are often classified as providing BASE (Basically Available, Soft state, Eventual consistency) semantics, in contrast to traditional ACID (Atomicity, Consistency, Isolation, Durability) guarantees." - thanks, hadn't heard of BASE before.
02:32:38 <dr_ais523> I often have problems trying to remember what ACID stands for
02:32:46 <dr_ais523> SQLite's docs strongly imply that the I is for Integrity, fwiw
02:34:24 <FireFly> I also have trouble remembering it, and I think it even was an exam question on the exam in our databases course
02:34:39 <FireFly> Though I think it was multiple-choice, so it wasn't too bad to figure out which one was correct
02:35:24 <dr_ais523> the ones that started with letters other than A, C, I, and D were presumably wrong?
02:36:01 <int-e> apparently, integrity is part of consistency...
02:36:21 <FireFly> They all did :P, but I think they changed all of the words between each choice
02:38:13 <int-e> even the sqlite docs... "The pager module is responsible for making SQLite "ACID" (Atomic, Consistent, Isolated, and Durable)."
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02:38:43 <int-e> So everyone agrees!
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03:30:02 <\oren\_> oh, ais523 is a doctor now!
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03:37:35 <\oren\_> dr_ais523: your nethack 4 website needs to be updated to Dr. PhD
03:38:06 <dr_ais523> I'm not sure if I'm going to officially change my name in all the places that already have it
03:38:10 <dr_ais523> most likely I'll just use it on new things
03:38:43 <FireFly> Being a doctor is pretty fancy
03:41:42 <dr_ais523> this has probably not in of itself made me better at esolangs
03:41:51 <dr_ais523> but I have revived my interest in esolangs at much the same time
03:42:04 <dr_ais523> and even persuaded other people to talk about Three Star Programmer (even if I fear it's "too easy")
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05:18:41 <hppavilion1> I have a website up usually where you can test it out. Unfortunately, I'm not at a place where I can properly forward the ports.
05:19:48 <hppavilion1> I think there might be a horrible bug that allows people to view any file on my computer (the ".." bug)
05:19:59 <hppavilion1> Unfortunately, I think firefox prevents you from testing it.
05:20:29 <zzo38> Then use netcat to test it
05:24:15 <zzo38> You can use netcat on Windows too.
05:24:33 <zzo38> (Although, it is not built-in, so you have to install it separately if you are on Windows)
05:25:00 <hppavilion1> zzo38: I prefer to just fix it in case it works.
05:25:15 <hppavilion1> "John" "first_name" COLUMN = ALL "users" DB SELECT
05:25:52 <hppavilion1> That finds users with first name "John" in your "users" DB and returns them
05:27:03 <zzo38> If you post the codes then we can download and execute this program and see its working
05:27:51 <zzo38> The DB, once you make it enough (not quite yet)
05:28:16 <hppavilion1> If you mean the DB, I have something better (except right now, when I can't port forward): In-browser interaction
05:28:46 <hppavilion1> After every new version of the 'terp, there's a form where you can enter code and it will executed it and output it to a box on the bottom right of the screen
05:29:19 <hppavilion1> And it's possible you meant post the code because there's no other way for you to see it
05:29:20 <zzo38> No I would prefer to run it outside of the browser, it is a better way
05:29:42 <zzo38> Although, you don't have to post it yet; first make work more on it so that it is working better.
05:30:01 <hppavilion1> zzo38: Do you mean you'd prefer to download it and run it yourself, or would you prefer some API docs to connect to my computer?
05:30:54 <hppavilion1> The API is simple: Just send a multipart/formdata post request to the server with the "commands" entry equivalent to the command you wish to send.
05:31:05 <hppavilion1> Now that I think about it, that might be a shit way to do it
05:31:15 <hppavilion1> But it integrates well with the setup I have right now
05:31:34 <zzo38> To run it by myself would work best, although API would be suitable when wanting to access the data remotely.
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05:31:45 <zzo38> (If there is any suitable data to access remotely!)
05:32:26 <hppavilion1> (oh, you have to send it to the path terps/<version number> for it to work. version number is like 0.01 (that's the current version), though you use underscores instead of full stops for the subversions)
05:32:53 <hppavilion1> I'll upload it to github. No personal website (yet!), so that's my best hosting location.
05:33:42 <hppavilion1> zzo38: Well, I could just pastebin the code when I'm ready. Would you prefer access to the devlog?
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05:34:15 <hppavilion1> If you want the devlog, you need to be running python 3.4 or 3.5 with aiohttp installed, as well as pygments.
05:34:32 * Sgeo is going to be AFK from the 14th to the 25th
05:34:50 <hppavilion1> (Not a slow clap, either. Genuine applause)
05:34:53 <dr_ais523> Sgeo: thanks for letting us know, saves us worrying about you
05:35:27 <dr_ais523> hppavilion1: there must be some sort of rule about IRC that no matter how hard you try to indicate you aren't being sarcastic, pretty much anything anyone says can be perceived as such
05:36:24 <hppavilion1> dr_ais523: I believe that that was Mdr. Hedwig Notta's first discovered theorem; the thing that got him into Chathematics.
05:36:34 <Sgeo> dr_ais523, Congratulations!
05:37:11 <dr_ais523> http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/6120/1/Smith15PhD.pdf for anyone who wants to read the thesis itself (apologies for my university's formatting guidelines)
05:37:12 <hppavilion1> ( zzo38: the devlog also serves as the docs, for now, so you probably want that. It's just a simple site.)
05:37:30 <dr_ais523> I concluded that fighting to get the information and structure in there was more important than arguing over the formatting
05:39:41 <dr_ais523> actually the font size is a few fractions of a pixel below what I was supposed to use, but matching it exactly was too hard
05:39:51 <dr_ais523> I had to get permission from my supervisor, which was mostly getting him to say that he didn't care
05:40:31 <dr_ais523> (the "you must get permission from your supervisor" rule was apparently written with no backing or means to enforce it, but I'm the sort of person who tends to obey ridiculous rules that aren't actively harmful in the hope that it helps people realise how ridiculous they are)
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05:43:46 <shachaf> What's not genuine about slow clapping?
05:43:51 <zzo38> I don't need a devlog
05:44:21 <zzo38> I have Python 2.7.3 though, not 3.4, sorry
05:44:55 <hppavilion1> zzo38: Ah. That would be problematic if you needed it; however, it should be fine.
05:45:14 <hppavilion1> Though there are no docs besides the devlog.
05:45:54 <zzo38> That's OK; I don't need anything yet. Although once it is much closer to being complete, I would like to see the program
05:46:33 <hppavilion1> zzo38: I don't think it will run on python 2.7, as it uses a library made for 3.5 that is just barely working on 3.4
05:48:12 <zzo38> I may not even want to execute it, but just to see it. If I do need to execute it I would need to upgrade the package because this package manager says it has only version 3.2
05:49:19 <hppavilion1> You'll be able to read the HTML file (though not use the interactive updates) without 3.4, but the server itself will need to be run on 3.4 or 3.5. Or, I suppose the backend might run on 2.7 (like, the part that actually does the databasing) and you could use the default behavior (a REPL) to play with it
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05:59:11 <zzo38> Do you like my proposals for changes of SQLite?
05:59:41 <dr_ais523> zzo38: I think the SQLite docs link to them
05:59:47 <dr_ais523> as something that people might want to take into consideration
06:00:32 <zzo38> dr_ais523: How is that?
06:01:11 <dr_ais523> maybe I'm confusing it with something else
06:09:05 <zzo38> One of the features I wanted was to allow virtual tables to consume LIMIT and OFFSET clauses in some cases (I wrote a documentation that mentions some of the considerations needed to do this); it seem to me it would be helpful for use with remote data
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06:12:13 <zzo38> There are also some other things that currently only are supported for real tables, and I wrote about some of the considerations for doing with virtual tables, and also a few other things that may be useful for virtual tables, such as batch update support.
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06:27:19 <zzo38> What is your opinion of these kind of idea?
06:28:41 <dr_ais523> zzo38: it seems like a good idea if you're using virtual tables
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06:39:17 <zzo38> I have written a virtual table module to read RDF data and also one to read JSON data (based on PDJSON); SQLite now includes its own JSON implementation though, which is probably better than mine. But if you want to add virtual tables to access remote data or to manipulate pictures or whatever, then some such new feature might also be useful.
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06:40:38 <zzo38> Virtual table can already support consuming MATCH constraints, which can be useful for remote data if the remote service uses its own query syntax for matching strings or text or whatever.
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09:00:56 <hppavilion[1]> We shoudl found the Unnecessary Standardization Society
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09:04:34 <dr_ais523> hppavilion[1]: oerjan often does aim at people in quit messages
09:04:47 <dr_ais523> also, we tried forming an esolang standardisation organisation before now
09:04:52 <dr_ais523> but it never accomplished anything
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09:05:14 <hppavilion[1]> dr_ais523: "Unnecessary Standardization Society" wouldn't be for esolangs, strictly
09:05:30 <hppavilion[1]> It'd be for standardizing things that should not be standardized.
09:05:38 <dr_ais523> you could, say, standardize toilet paper orientation
09:06:04 <hppavilion[1]> Like how you torture people (which is something which shouldn't be done, let alone done in a standard way)
09:06:26 <hppavilion[1]> It would be to some degree a parody of actual standardization
09:07:05 <fizzie> I formed something vaguely like that (although it wasn't strictly restricted to only things that shouldn't be standardised) with a friend years ago, but it didn't really go anywhere.
09:08:19 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Was that the thing dr_ais523 was talking about?
09:08:54 <hppavilion[1]> If I decide to form an EsoStandard Society, I'll probably incoroprate ESON as a standard.
09:09:06 <fizzie> It was more about standardising just random things in general, both useless and maybe (accidentally) useful.
09:09:36 <fizzie> There was a punny acronym and a number of files that have probably now been lost, that's all.
09:10:10 <hppavilion[1]> Because data can really only be measured in binarized metric
09:10:25 <fizzie> HThere are extensions of the eating-based nomenclature.
09:11:33 <fizzie> Like two bits are allegedly a crumb, but there are all kinds of suggestions for going upwards from nybble/byte too. Not really widespread enough to be standard.
09:11:57 <fizzie> I remember hearing "meal" at least.
09:12:08 <fizzie> Not sure how many bits it was.
09:12:49 <fizzie> It was also probably a useful unit, which wouldn't be that "imperial"
09:13:36 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Exactly. Imperial Units for data would be completely arbitrary and pointless and generally bad.
09:13:37 <fizzie> Oh. Well, maybe. Not sure if 8 bites is much of a meal.
09:13:53 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: TELL THAT TO THE CHILDREN STARVING IN AFRICA
09:13:56 <fizzie> That's maybe more of a snack.
09:15:23 <fizzie> 16 bytes is a paragraph, which provides a different theme of extensions. I think this one was used in an esolang. Maybe even something by the doctor.
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09:15:53 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Is there such thing as a pizza? Equivalent to ~4 meals assuming each person eats 2 slices and it's a standard pizza.
09:17:20 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Does something count as having been made by a doctor if they earned their doctorate after they made it?
09:19:00 <dr_ais523> fizzie: it's probably a type from Infinite Vector, which was made by me
09:19:05 <dr_ais523> and is mostly admired for the type names
09:19:25 <hppavilion[1]> A yes-or-no question followed by "If so, how can we abuse this knowledge?" is now my favourite thing to say
09:19:47 <dr_ais523> you could change "if so," to "if not," depending in the question
09:19:57 <dr_ais523> and almost double the number of circumstances it works in
09:21:10 <hppavilion[1]> I think there are more questions to which the answer is "no" than there are to which it is "yes", assuming a finitely-large universe, or that our frame-of-reference is limited to the observable universe
09:21:59 <hppavilion[1]> Unless, of course, you count negated questions as unique questions. Which we don't here.
09:23:02 <hppavilion[1]> If you do, then there are an equal number of both "yes"-answerable questions and "no"-answerable questions, and that number is infinity because you can negate repeatedly to produce new questions.
09:23:28 <hppavilion[1]> Unless you're sane and don't count n-negated questions where n>1 as unique questions
09:23:53 <dr_ais523> what if I'm insane but nonetheless don't count n-negated questions where n>1 as unique questions?
09:24:19 <hppavilion[1]> dr_ais523: I never said you can't be insane and do that. I think. Did I?
09:24:28 <hppavilion[1]> You know, maybe we should formulate Question Theory to formalize the things which we can abuse the knowledge of.
09:24:42 <hppavilion[1]> Unless there's an existing field of mathematics that does that already
09:25:06 <hppavilion[1]> Though question theory could be created with a Curry-Howard-like correspondence to Formal Logic
09:25:15 <dr_ais523> hppavilion[1]: it depends on what "unless" means
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09:27:03 <hppavilion[1]> What is the mathematical object that we call a "Question"?
09:28:00 <hppavilion[1]> And which probably resides in the set Ε (from the greek word "Ερώτηση")
09:29:18 <hppavilion[1]> (With this, we will make mathematics require even more rigor! You will have to formulate a formal question to even consider anything! Mwahahahaha!)
09:31:32 <hppavilion[1]> dr_ais523: Have any ideas? Can't think of what to make a formal question xD
09:31:46 <fizzie> I wrote a really niche application (as one does), and usually I've put them to github to be ignored by everyone (ditto), but now I'm technically supposed to ask for permission from my employer first. :/
09:32:05 <dr_ais523> I'm the sort of person for whom a good idea normally takes days to work out the implication of
09:32:40 <hppavilion[1]> Why would you need to ask permission for something you make?
09:33:45 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose a Question probably is a constraint and a set of possible answers
09:34:05 <hppavilion[1]> The constraints have to match some formal definition of question constraints
09:34:20 <fizzie> Because our standard contract has a (not so unusual) clause on it that makes them own everything by default if it is "relevant to the business", and given the amount of pies Google has their fingers in, with sufficiently far-fetched logic even very silly things could technically fall in that bucket.
09:35:03 <fizzie> I mean, they could take my niche application and sell it, in theory. I might even pay, say, a dollar for it, if someone else had written it.
09:35:16 <fizzie> But nobody would have, because I don't think it really has much of an audience.
09:36:02 <fizzie> dr_ais523: It's yet another variation of the port knocking scheme that people use to hide open services from casual observers.
09:36:31 <dr_ais523> Google would probably be potentially interested in that field generally, but quite possibly have a decent impl already and don't need another
09:37:17 <fizzie> dr_ais523: I wanted something that (a) does the knocking with a TCP SYN packet into the same port it will eventually connect (for robustness -- that's something that should succeed if the connection itself will) and (b) can be performed from a stock Android device.
09:37:43 <dr_ais523> hmm, (b) is probably less of a problem for Google
09:38:08 <fizzie> For (a) above, there's http://www.thoughtcrime.org/software/knockknock/ (well, that's dead now; but it's got like 27 forks in Github, I'm sure at least one of them is still going), but it puts the data into fields of the TCP packet you can't modify from an unprivileged application.
09:38:39 <fizzie> I went with an app that puts a special magic value into the advertised TCP MSS field, which is something you can setsockopt from a regular process.
09:39:05 <fizzie> It misses all the fancy crypto for indistinguishability and replay-proofness, but OTOH it's not *worse* than regular "hit this port" knocking.
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09:39:39 <fizzie> (And the Android app needs no special magic to perform the knock.)
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09:42:25 <fizzie> Oh, there's one other alternative which I came up with while tinkering with this that satisfies (a) + (b) and allows for large(r) amounts of data, but it's IPv4 only and so not terribly future-proof.
09:43:18 <fizzie> setsockopt(..., IPPROTO_IP, IP_OPTIONS, ...) can be set on a socket (even a stream one) to adjust the IPv4 option headers for all packets going out of that socket.
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09:44:08 <fizzie> The problem there is that the corresponding Linux API for IPv6 is not a socket option -- you pass control messages to sendmsg, and it only works for SOCK_DGRAM (and SOCK_RAW) sockets, so it can't be used to affect the TCP SYN.
09:45:30 <fizzie> Anyway, using a fixed magic TCP MSS has the advantage that the server side doesn't need a program to do the crypto, it can be a simple iptables rule with "-m tcpmss --mss X".
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10:35:04 <HackEgo> hyperbolic geometry? ¯\(°_o)/¯
10:35:47 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn Hyperbolic Geometry/Hyperbolic Geometry is geometry that is exaggerated to the point of absurdity
10:35:50 <HackEgo> Learned «hyperbolic geometry»
10:35:58 <HackEgo> Hyperbolic Geometry is geometry that is exaggerated to the point of absurdity
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11:55:34 <b_jonas> Hmm. As I specified the Aspis of Horatio Cocles, it would allow a crazy expensive strategy where you get it, wish for the Eye of Misspelling, go to a quest nemesis (or really any strong monster except the Wizard), branchport to the castle, controlled teleport to the bridge, and defeat it there.
11:55:54 <b_jonas> That's not overpowered though, because it needs controlled teleport, the EotA, and a random artifact.
11:56:26 <b_jonas> Although the nemesis could still try to heal at the stairs if you don't block it.
11:57:49 <b_jonas> Luckiliy it's trickier against the Wizard of Yendor: he'd curse the Aspis and your weapon to your hands, at which point you're screwed unless you're very prepared.
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12:23:09 <b_jonas> In both scenarios, they were not separated before Atlas.
12:23:17 <b_jonas> In both scenarios, they were not separated before Atlas.
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12:24:39 <b_jonas> According to http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1224/197 , after Zeus and his fellow Olympian gods overthrew the Titans (Kronos etc), he punished the Titan Atlas by giving him the task that he has to hold the celestial sphere Oranos separate from the earth Gaia, because “If they united together once more, Gaia might start birthing titans again and the Olympian Gods see that as bad thing.”
12:24:51 <b_jonas> \ giving him the task that he has to hold the celestial sphere Oranos separate from the earth Gaia, because “If they united together once more, Gaia might start birthing titans again and the Olympian Gods see that as bad thing.”
12:25:38 <b_jonas> So Zeus tasks a defeated Titan to ensure that no more Titans can be born and so the Titans can't get to power again.
12:25:49 <b_jonas> That sounds to me like such a stupid idea that only Zeus could come up with it.
12:26:04 <b_jonas> In fact, it could explain why the Olympian gods are no longer in power.
12:26:59 <b_jonas> The titans just needed a hero who isn't on the Olympian's side to explain the situation to Atlas and convince him to drop the sky,
12:27:43 <b_jonas> and then new gods could be born again, they can release the old Titans from Tartarus and overthrow Zeus's rule.
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12:31:52 <b_jonas> Zeus isn't entirely stupid, mind you. He was good in getting other gods as allies. He gained Hades and Hephaistos as allies by donating them beautiful women to marry, then gained other gods as allies by using the technology created by Hephaistos.
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13:44:08 <lambdabot> uptime: 20h 1m 51s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
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14:22:18 <lambdabot> CYUL 131400Z 04008KT 30SM BKN240 01/M03 A3031 RMK CI7 SLP266
14:22:33 <boily> only 1. back to normaler temperatures.
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14:34:30 <Taneb> I return from Italy!
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14:42:21 <boily> you overwrote the vacation stack, so now you return to an unknown adress?
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14:55:45 <lambdabot> EGLL 131450Z AUTO 15001KT 6000 OVC003 09/08 Q1018 BECMG BKN005
14:55:57 <fizzie> At least it's less than ten.
14:56:20 <fizzie> BECMG BKN looks like the kind of thing people write in their textual messages.
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14:57:32 <fizzie> fungot: Speak SMS to me, please.
14:57:32 <fungot> fizzie: am i that much bad, ur bd me kisike side nai:-d... aur 1 bar mein gassey ( in out) maare ,to us larki: kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi n
14:57:49 <fizzie> fungot: That's a bit too much.
14:57:49 <fungot> fizzie: finish my presentation le three hours standing exhausted. just want to cuddle up and take. :-d
14:58:11 <fizzie> fungot: Oh, you're giving a presentation? What about?
14:58:12 <fungot> fizzie: wat i cnt i said i ' l talk later
14:58:59 <int-e> i mapole lop ami ... a dictionary word mapole palindrome... but making a meaningful one seems hard
15:00:36 <int-e> (here's a tempting but probably useless start: develop a mapole ved...)
15:05:28 <boily> mapole mapole mapole ♪
15:05:43 <boily> fizziello. kbi na kbi na kbi na kbi na.
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15:44:00 <Taneb> This is a long wait at heathrow...
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17:41:33 <Sgeo> "This is to officially inform you that it has come to our notice and we have thoroughly Investigated with the help of our Intelligence Monitoring Network System that you are having an illegal Transaction with Impostors Claiming to be the Secretary General of the United Nation, Ban Ki-Moon, the CEO HSBC Bank UK, formal FIFA President, none officials of Barclays UK, China Construction Bank , China, Agricultural Bank of China , China, Wells
17:41:33 <Sgeo> Fargo, US, JPMorgan Chase, US, Wells Fargo, US,HSBC Holdings UK,Royal Bank of Canada , Canada, Commonwealth Bank Australia,ICBC China, Bank of China are Impostors. During our Investigation, we noticed that the reason why you have not received your Payment is because you have not fulfilled your Financial Obligation given to you in respect of your Contract/Inheritance Payment."
17:41:42 <Sgeo> ^^ spam email claiming to be from FBI
17:42:07 <Sgeo> What's the thought here, that the FBI wants to assist with your illegal transaction with imposters?
17:46:39 <int-e> meta spam, beautiful
17:47:18 <int-e> but I'm afraid that this goes beyond logic
17:49:17 <Taneb> Sgeo: I think that the reason it's illegal is that you aren't giving them your details
17:53:06 <int-e> seems to be old... http://www.snopes.com/CRIME/fraud/atmcard.asp
17:55:05 <int-e> (that specimen is neat because it mentions people imposting FBI agents)
17:58:41 <int-e> anyway, the usual logic applies; "oh wow, that's a lot of money" "I'll risk $500 for that" "also it's from the FBI" "the text was too long I didn't read all of that"
18:01:43 * int-e is reminded of https://xkcd.com/570/
18:03:12 <int-e> though now that I look at it again, I think the guy in the car just wanted a new car without paying for it
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18:14:46 <Sgeo> int-e, same joke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdi6E-qzS1c
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18:41:56 <zzo38> With my "relative location bar" extension to Firefox, I find it sometimes useful to use the ALT+ENTER to open a relative URL in a new tab. It is also sometimes useful in order to open the current URL in a new tab.
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18:51:39 <zzo38> The best interpretation of quantum mechanics is: Mathematics is the real reality.
18:52:27 <izabera> what are the alternatives?
18:53:22 <zzo38> There are a lot (more than I know)! It can be look up in Wikipedia too
18:56:46 <zzo38> Some people say it is embarassing for everyone to have a different opinion, but that is stupid because the correct way is that nobody know if/how such thing is supposed to be matter of opinion, religion, scientific, philosophy, or an experiment; therefore how can you know what/if a correct answer can be? Nobody can know.
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20:43:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Wms0-1p * New user account
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23:35:23 <hppavilion[1]> boily: That was me alerting you to my presence. The problem with esellos is that it doesn't beep the other user.
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23:38:44 <boily> makes sense. but some of us get pinged on part of their nicks, and others just reflexively alt-tab alt-tab (as I do).
23:39:05 <boily> and then we have the All Seeing Oerjan, the Backlogger.
23:39:40 <oerjan> <dr_ais523> you could, say, standardize toilet paper orientation <-- i'm sorry that is already completely standard, even if some INFIDELS get it WRONG WRONG WRONG
23:40:17 <boily> oh, ais523 is now a Dr.?
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23:41:19 <oerjan> you'd know if you read the logs hth
23:41:33 <oerjan> (also if you had been here yesterday for any length of time...)
23:42:01 <boily> yesterday I was Christmas shopping, and we had our Christmas office party.
23:44:17 <oerjan> <fizzie> There was a punny acronym and a number of files that have probably now been lost, that's all. <-- i have this hunch this is not a very identifying description.
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00:00:19 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'm going to team up with a friend and go into some small-scale web development.
00:01:10 <zzo38> This is I made some idea about stuff that could be useful in SQLite: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/sqlext
00:01:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45863&oldid=45860 * Luis Mendo * (+0) /* Specification */
00:01:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45864&oldid=45863 * Luis Mendo * (+0) /* Specification */
00:03:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45865&oldid=45864 * Luis Mendo * (-6) /* Compiler */
00:03:08 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> And which probably resides in the set Ε (from the greek word "Ερώτηση") <-- i see greeks consider questions to be erotic, no wonder they invented logic.
00:03:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45866&oldid=45865 * Luis Mendo * (-19) /* Specification */
00:04:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45867&oldid=45866 * Luis Mendo * (+0) /* Specification */
00:04:57 <oerjan> also i think that's new greek, according to wiktionary the ancient version is ἐρώτησις
00:05:11 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: no, i'm sure you just discovered a greek pun.
00:05:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45868&oldid=45867 * Luis Mendo * (-1) /* Specification */
00:05:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45869&oldid=45868 * Luis Mendo * (-1) /* Compiler */
00:06:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Blo]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45870 * Qpliu * (+10369) Created page with "The blo programming language is a stripped-down programming language largely based on Go. Types in blo are user defined structs, whose fields can be either a bit or a non-rec..."
00:06:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45871&oldid=45869 * Luis Mendo * (+0) /* Compiler */
00:06:16 <oerjan> it is greek for question. which happens to start with erot-
00:06:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45872&oldid=45826 * Qpliu * (+10) /* B */
00:07:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45873&oldid=45871 * Luis Mendo * (-8) /* Specification */
00:08:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45874&oldid=45873 * Luis Mendo * (-8) /* Compiler */
00:09:58 <oerjan> i'm sure ancient comedians used that all the time.
00:09:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45875&oldid=45874 * Luis Mendo * (+412) /* Compiler */
00:18:11 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Is superelliptic geometry possible? <-- you might want to look up L^p metrics hth
00:19:03 <oerjan> i'm not sure that's any kind of analogous to hyperbolic geometry, though.
00:19:45 <oerjan> and square geometry is then either L^1 or L^\infty, dependent on which way you orientate the square.
00:20:18 <oerjan> L^1 is also known as "taxicab geometry"
00:20:30 <fizzie> oerjan: I made a half-hearted attempt to find some of those files, but gave up when I reached the ~/archive/backup/older/colin/old/pc/_old/ directory.
00:20:51 <fizzie> I can't even recall the punny acronym, except that I think the word "everything" was in it.
00:22:01 <oerjan> everything standardize optimally
00:31:33 <oerjan> `? hyperbolic geometry
00:31:35 <HackEgo> Hyperbolic Geometry is geometry that is exaggerated to the point of absurdity
00:31:55 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/hyperbolic\ geometry
00:44:01 <oerjan> <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Wms0-1p * New user account <-- that's a very weird username...
00:44:16 <oerjan> nothing in the abuse log though
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01:02:50 <boily> maybe it's a dormant spambot...
01:05:18 <\oren\_> @tell b_jonas that's basically the plot of the campaign of AoM:TT
01:14:57 <lifthrasiir> I don't know why, but PuTTY does not get the first 40 (yeah, 가 thru 갧, don't know why) hangul syllables
01:15:45 <boily> huh. rp is a valid end cluster in Korean?
01:15:56 <boily> \oren\_: shit happens.
01:16:37 <\oren\_> I was playing hyrule warriors all night
01:17:56 <lifthrasiir> to be exact, it does NOT mean that it's pronounced /rp/ or similar
01:17:57 <\oren\_> lifthrasiir: try Pietty, it has hacks for CJK
01:19:12 <\oren\_> http://ntu.csie.org/~piaip/pietty/
01:20:13 <lifthrasiir> \oren\_: some investigation indicates the problem is not specific to PuTTY, notepad doesn't get *any* hangul syllables at all
01:20:58 <\oren\_> do any chinese charatcers work? 黒鼻龍
01:21:16 <lifthrasiir> it somehow gets the correct advance width but not glyphs
01:21:32 <lifthrasiir> \oren\_: there are some radicals (separately encoded) drawn, but in general, no
01:21:49 <\oren\_> maybe you have a font that has blank glyphs
01:22:09 <\oren\_> like they are "in" the font but have no lines
01:22:36 <\oren\_> and then that font is being fallen back to when you don't select a Korean font?
01:22:39 <boily> lifthrasiir: so ㄿ exists. I guess it's pronounced closer to /lp/ or /l/?
01:23:42 <lifthrasiir> boily: any final consonant besides from ㄱㄴㄷㄹㅁㅂㅇ is an orthographical notation
01:28:42 <lifthrasiir> boily: ㄿ is primarily pronounced as ㄹ, but it also gives ㅍ when followed by a vowel (i.e. initial ㅇ in the syllablic block)
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02:20:50 <Sgeo> Ugh, is HexChat assuming that all of those are U+0000?
02:20:59 <Sgeo> Because all I see are boxes with 4 0s
02:21:36 <Sgeo> Gregor had prior indicated to me elsewhere that Freetype does boxes with the codepoint in them
02:22:41 <Sgeo> Oh, it shows that one differently. I guess it could look like FFFF (it's U+FFFF), but it's too small to see
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02:39:34 <Sgeo> I think every character the font doesn't support
02:39:35 <Sgeo> 黒鼻龍 worked fine
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03:21:18 <hppavilion[1]> (Int, Float, Complex, Tuple, List, Date, Char, String) (Tuple, List, and Char have all the Haskellic relationships: String=[Char], Tuple is fixed-width non-homogenous wheras list is variable-width homogenous)
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03:25:14 <\oren\_> function from any type to any type
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04:12:25 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Make sure it uses gopher and not http
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04:39:25 <hppavilion[1]> OK, crowdculator is up at http://206.174.0.58/crowdculator
04:39:46 <hppavilion[1]> With some adjustments I'm about to document into the webpage
04:45:33 <zzo38> You can also to use both gopher and HTTP
04:46:02 <zzo38> (My own computer uses both, and a gopher server, as well as a gopher client, would not be so difficult to make.)
04:47:33 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I'm using a python library specifically designed for HTTP, so I probably can't
04:47:56 <hppavilion[1]> Like Crowdculator calculates on the server because that way I can use PyBrain
04:49:04 <zzo38> With gopher everything is calculated on the server, except for display which must be decided by the client; the server gives no CSS or HTML or anything like that
04:51:33 <hppavilion[1]> Anyway, I don't really want to /use/ gopher; the content of the site should be Eso-, not the way you access it
04:55:41 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps a stack-based language based exclusively on stack manipulation and introspection (e.g. no arithmetic or anything) would be good?
04:56:37 <hppavilion[1]> You call the successor function with i #, where i is the "push item" instruction and # is the "get length of stack" instruction
04:56:45 <lifthrasiir> stack inside stack inside stack inside stack inside...
04:56:57 <lifthrasiir> I once thought of a funge variant of that kind
04:58:32 <hppavilion[1]> It would push an item with no definite value, but that is distinctly different from any other value represented by a string of lowercase letters
05:01:33 <hppavilion[1]> so a != b and a == a, but a isn't actually meaningful or concrete like True or 5 or "Hello World", which aren't available in this langauge
05:05:04 <hppavilion[1]> The only part of the language with concrete values is an accumulator which stores a single byte, and that has to be set with $, which an abstract value called one, then pops 8 more values and builds a byte out of them based on the value equaling one meaning a 1 in the byte else meaning 0
05:06:17 <hppavilion[1]> And the only thing you can really do with the acc is oneset it (what I described above), input a byte to it, pull it down (reverse of onesetting), and output an ASCII character from it
05:15:22 <hppavilion[1]> I'm adding a feature to the standard W'' interpreter
05:15:50 <hppavilion[1]> If turned on, it defers commands that aren't deemed "safe" to a secondary, non-evil version
05:20:22 <hppavilion[1]> So I can just execute unfiltered programs coming in from clients on a server and not worry about being hacked
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05:32:25 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, you could still lag my computer to kingdom come with 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** or the like
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06:00:16 <zzo38> I have partially made a SQLite extension for using PCRE
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06:26:21 <\oren\_> I've made the hangul-generation and insertion-into-my-font fully automated
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06:27:05 <zzo38> How is the hangul-generation worked and how is formats of such thing?
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06:35:01 <\oren\_> I'm using a C program to generate a BDF fragment containing just the hangul glyphs, then a shell script inserts it into the BDF file of my font.
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06:49:18 <hppavilion[1]> Did whoever-it-is-who-opened-it add .html to the end? Because that could've been the problem
06:49:45 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, found the issue. They attempted to visit the homepage.
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07:17:00 <zzo38> I got REGEXP and PCRE_CONFIG to work already, and now I have also got PCRE_COMPILE to work, and then I will add PCRE_EXEC and possibly some other functions (possibly PCRE_QUOTE) and possibly a virtual table too
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07:34:06 <zzo38> For a SQLite extension I am making
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08:06:44 <zzo38> You can tell me if you have other suggestions (or questions, comments, complaints) too
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08:54:03 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps a programming language where Classes can catch diseases?
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09:02:53 <^v> calling a diseised class will infect yours
09:03:16 <^v> worse the infection, worse the undefined behavior
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09:42:11 <b_jonas> \oren\_: I think in AoM the titans rise, but I don't recall Atlas being involved.
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11:41:25 <b_jonas> what the heck is the http request header called "DNT"?
11:43:58 <b_jonas> wait, did you notice that cmd on win7 doesn't echo empty lines in batch files, unlike the original command.com of DOS? this is great change!
11:44:32 <b_jonas> you no longer have to @ all the empty lines just to avoid junk on the screen
11:45:23 <fizzie> It's the Do-Not-Track header.
11:46:04 <fizzie> I've been assuming they abbreviated it to save bytes in HTTP headers. I've seen that sort of thing, and it's probably even a valid concern, given how many HTTP requests there are in total.
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12:06:12 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "freenode", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.176", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo off"]} target:#esoteric rest:"off"
12:06:21 <mroman> Isn't that the first line of pretty much every batch file anyway?
12:08:56 <b_jonas> I don't get it then, because its value is 1 but I cleared it in the browser options
12:10:19 <b_jonas> Probably Firefox is just stupid and that header is useless.
12:10:27 <b_jonas> I mean, why is there a setting if it doesn't work?
12:14:10 <fizzie> You could check about:config for privacy.donottrackheader.*, apparently.
12:20:52 <fizzie> My Firefox here doesn't seem to be sending DNT.
12:23:15 <b_jonas> fizzie: that one is set to false.
12:23:45 <fizzie> There's apparently also a thing that makes private browsing windows have do-not-track by default, in case that's applicable.
12:24:00 <b_jonas> Yes, but this isn't a private browsing window either.
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12:24:24 <fizzie> Well, maybe it's just broken then.
12:24:41 <fizzie> Or maybe you've got an extension that's decided to be proactive about privacy.
12:25:47 <b_jonas> Hmm, I should check extensions, yes.
12:46:26 <fizzie> "Connect error for create: closed"
12:46:32 <fizzie> That's a very informative error message, thank you for that.
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15:00:08 <mroman> http://codepad.org/UNHdcwDT
15:00:21 <mroman> I found an esolang lurking around on my computer
15:00:34 <mroman> I think it's a modified version of one I published in my old blog.
15:00:51 <mroman> but I'm too brain fogged right now to figure it out.
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16:42:39 <HackEgo> olist 1015: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:43:59 <FireFly> Really? I can't access giantitp.com
16:44:35 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/2015-12-14_174423.png is this just for me?
16:50:45 <shachaf> www.giantitp.com resolves to 68.168.102.183 here
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17:25:22 <int-e> hmm, transparant proxy or bogus route? (last few traceroute steps are 4.28.82.158 216.55.184.96 216.55.184.117 68.168.102.183 for me)
17:26:11 <int-e> (using traceroute -n to avoid nameserver lookups)
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17:30:07 <APic> Has Tax Law anything to do with LaTex?
17:32:24 <APic> Just had similar Letters
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17:52:04 <FireFly> shachaf, int-e: It seems to boil down to a browser bug with the browser not setting the Host header properly... but I have no idea why
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17:59:23 <hppavilion[1]> APic: Wait, did you actually think Tax Law had anything to do with LaTeX?
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17:59:37 <APic> Yes, i am schizophrenic.
17:59:56 <APic> I thought maybe some one could have intended it as a Joke.
18:00:16 <hppavilion[1]> Ah. I just wasn't sure if you were, for example, a non-native english speaker
18:02:06 <hppavilion[1]> I'm now writing the Betan Taxation Act of 1920+16i
18:02:26 <hppavilion[1]> The first Tax Law for the nation of Beta, Hedwig Notta's homeland
18:16:18 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: sounds like a complex law
18:24:40 <mroman> my conworlding senses are flaring up
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18:26:45 <shachaf> FireFly: there's a mirror on my website if you need one hth
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20:42:45 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The international hub for esoteric Tax Law design and deployment. | Effi's finest fluffy waffles | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
20:43:05 <hppavilion[1]> Funnier than KRF, which no one even knows what it means (ironically)
20:48:39 <hppavilion[1]> I need some esoteric operators that can be used to represent any arithmetical expression in a completely different way
20:59:14 <hppavilion[1]> I would like languages like Python (those with the ** operator) to allow x, then n repeated *s, then y to be equal to H[n-1](x, y)
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21:11:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45876&oldid=43065 * Rottytooth * (+422) introducing a foldername-agnostic variation of Folders currently in progress
21:13:05 <mauris> http://arxiv.org/abs/1512.03547 good news for eodermdrome interpreters!
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21:17:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pure folders]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45877 * Rottytooth * (+21) Folders 2.0
21:18:12 <b_jonas> mauris: I don't think that implies a fast algorithm for subgraph isomorphism.
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22:02:36 <izabera> https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/61/ how is one supposed to solve this?
22:10:38 <hppavilion[1]> Could probably be better, but it's the longest script ever written in W'' xD
22:11:43 <hppavilion[1]> I'm counting code block delimiters ("[|" and "|]") as instructions
22:12:44 <hppavilion[1]> Though it doesn't yet work in the reference implementation; I'm yet to implement comparison instructions (or even technically put them in the spec xD)
22:13:53 <fizzie> izabera: I assume you'll use the message + keyed_alphabet in the sample to figure out the "encryption", and then write a program to apply that. Given how all the digit groups have an even number of digits, and treating every two digits as a separate number all the numbers are from 01 to 25 and keyed_alphabet has a length of 26, I'd start with pairs of digits.
22:16:32 <fizzie> (With spaces mapping to spaces.)
22:18:44 <hppavilion[1]> http://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/31388/how-would-facebook-sysadmins-prevent-the-summoning-of-cthulhu
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22:22:20 <izabera> fizzie: i thought about that but i can't make some sense of the result
22:22:35 <izabera> 012222 1114142503 0313012513 03141418192102 0113 2419182119021713 06131715070119
22:22:35 <izabera> B J J G V V Q I I Y B Q Y I V V Z D F H B Y P D Z F D H U Y E Y U A C B D
22:23:49 <fizzie> Well, it might well have some other trivial transformation(s) applied. Also, there's ambiguity about whether the indices are zero-based. And they need not be just indices to the keyed_alphabet string, of course.
22:26:02 <izabera> that was 1 based. with 0, the first word is H K K
22:28:54 <hppavilion[1]> The digit at the end is unary, then the second digit from the end is binary, and indeed the nth digit from the end is written in base n.
22:32:30 <mauris> izabera: running your thing through a cryptrogram solver, i get ALL PEERS START SEEDING AT MIDNIGHT ?TH??AI
22:33:05 <mauris> (i chopped off the last word, then fed it to http://rumkin.com/tools/cipher/cryptogram-solver.php)
22:33:37 <hppavilion[1]> And fast forward 1000 years (10th century->modern times)
22:35:19 <hppavilion[1]> For example, are orcs still a problem? Or did we figure out how to exploit them into manual labor? Or maybe it even turns out that orcs can be smart, smarter than most humans even, (on rare occasion), but it just-so-happens that these "sky orcs" (so named because their flesh is sky blue) were sacrificed at birth historically
22:36:05 <hppavilion[1]> Are healers paid a shitton of money (much more than doctors) to work in hospitals?
22:36:17 <izabera> mauris: i can't get that result? how did you solve it?
22:36:29 <fizzie> By feeding it to that tool there?
22:36:38 <hppavilion[1]> And do said healers need a degree in healing (so as to become "uber-healers") to do that?
22:36:45 <izabera> yes but i tried and i get no result
22:36:56 <mauris> put BJJ GVVQI IYBQY IVVZDFH BY PDZFDHUY in the textbox.
22:38:14 <izabera> oh that's why you chopped off the last word
22:39:40 <izabera> the keyed alphabet that codeeval is providing is completely pointless?
22:40:14 <fizzie> Presumably it will be relevant for getting the proper substitution without having to guess.
22:40:22 <fizzie> I mean, the tool provides four outputs and misses the last word.
22:40:35 <fizzie> Your solution must presumably provide one output and include all words.
22:40:51 <fizzie> What the tool is useful for is seeing the (very likely, given it's BitTorrent-sponsored) correct solution.
22:41:11 <fizzie> Which might make it much easier to figure out how to get from the numbers via keyed_alphabet to the solution.
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22:44:17 <mauris> for what it's worth, the mapping defined by
22:44:24 <mauris> > zip ['A'..'Z'] "BHISOECRTMGWYVALUZDNFJKPQX"
22:44:26 <lambdabot> [('A','B'),('B','H'),('C','I'),('D','S'),('E','O'),('F','E'),('G','C'),('H',...
22:44:41 <mauris> seems to be a derangement
22:45:07 <mauris> that is to say, it sends all of the letters in one big cycle
22:46:00 <mauris> the final word is KTHXBAI. probably to prevent people from doing what i did :)
22:46:53 <mauris> (actually, i lied?? about the thing. never trust me)
22:50:34 <int-e> > map (catMaybes . map (flip lookup (zip "BHISOECRTMGWYVALUZDNFJKPQX" ['A'..'Z']) . (['A'..'Z'] !!))) $ map (map (read . take 2) . takeWhile (not . null) . iterate (drop 2)) . words $ "012222 1114142503 0313012513 03141418192102 0113 2419182119021713 06131715070119"
22:50:35 <lambdabot> ["ALL","PEERS","START","SEEDING","AT","MIDNIGHT","KTHXBAI"]
22:51:23 <mauris> izabera: interpret the digit pairs as indices in the plain alphabet, but count from 00 = A. so 01 = B and 22 = W
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22:51:53 <mauris> izabera: then apply the mapping defined by B -> A, H -> B, I -> C, S -> D... zipping keyed_alphabet with the actual alphabet.
22:51:58 <int-e> oh I have a map f . map g in there. fun.
23:03:03 <int-e> > unwords . map (map (snd . (sort (zip "BHISOECRTMGWYVALUZDNFJKPQX" ['A'..]) !!) . read . take 2) . takeWhile (not . null) . iterate (drop 2)) . words $ "012222 1114142503 0313012513 03141418192102 0113 2419182119021713 06131715070119"
23:03:05 <lambdabot> "ALL PEERS START SEEDING AT MIDNIGHT KTHXBAI"
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23:05:53 <fizzie> I did it in Octave for some reason.
23:06:11 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/PJYS
23:06:27 <fizzie> With manual grouping of the numbers, because Octave.
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23:09:41 <fizzie> More things should have sort that returns the indices.
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23:15:30 <fizzie> Huh, the parsing wasn't actually too bad.
23:15:45 <fizzie> >> message = '012222 1114142503 0313012513 03141418192102 0113 2419182119021713 06131715070119';
23:15:48 <fizzie> >> keyed_alphabet = 'BHISOECRTMGWYVALUZDNFJKPQX';
23:15:48 <fizzie> >> strjoin(cellfun(@(m) alphabet(i(1+m)), cellfun(@(w) str2num(reshape(w,2,[])')', strsplit(message), 'UniformOutput', 0), 'UniformOutput', 0))
23:15:52 <fizzie> >> [alphabet, i] = sort(keyed_alphabet);
23:15:54 <fizzie> ans = ALL PEERS START SEEDING AT MIDNIGHT KTHXBAI
23:17:20 <fizzie> I've never understood why UniformOutput defaults to true on *cellfun*. It makes some sense for arrayfun, but I think I've used it for cellfun approximately once.
23:17:31 <fizzie> (In MATLAB, everything's so fun.)
23:18:44 <fizzie> Huh, in retrospect that was probably a useless use of cellfun, I just splurged the two parts together without thinking.
23:19:26 <fizzie> Yeah, it's obviously just the same as strjoin(cellfun(@(w) alphabet(i(1+str2num(reshape(w,2,[])')')), strsplit(message), 'UniformOutput', 0))
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23:28:02 <fizzie> >> ([' ' alphabet])(1+([0 i])(2+str2num(reshape(strrep(message,' ','-1'),2,[])')'))
23:28:06 <fizzie> ans = ALL PEERS START SEEDING AT MIDNIGHT KTHXBAI
23:28:08 <fizzie> Now with much less cellfun.
23:28:36 <fizzie> Also that wouldn't work in MATLAB, because you can't subscript the result of an expression, only variables.
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23:43:28 <hppavilion1> So I had an idea for a usable- nay, use/ful/- programming language based on the teachings of Eso.
23:43:38 <hppavilion1> Based on another, common programming language
23:46:50 <hppavilion1> And it has cool introspective capabilities
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01:12:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45878&oldid=45875 * Luis Mendo * (+3) /* Compiler */
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01:16:19 * tswett smashes his fist on the game board, sending pieces flying.
01:16:42 <tswett> I've been thinking about a topological version control system.
01:17:44 <tswett> In a version control system such as git, you keep track of a bunch of revisions, all of which are states that your source tree can be in.
01:18:22 <tswett> You don't keep track of *how* things changed from one revision to the next; you just store a state, and then the following state, and call it good.
01:18:58 <tswett> With my version control system, you can't just specify a starting state and an ending state; you also have to specify a topological path between them.
01:19:56 <tswett> A point in the path could be a completely specified source tree, or it could be a *partially* specified source tree.
01:20:52 <tswett> So, perhaps "ACD" and "ACE" are possible source trees. "AC(unspecified)" is, obviously, not completely specified.
01:21:30 <tswett> Let's just write that as "AC*" for convenience.
01:22:20 <APic> I have a Déjà-Vu
01:22:31 <tswett> The rule for the topology is the following. A set is open whenever, for every partially specified source-tree it contains, it also contains all "more completely specified" versions of it.
01:22:36 * APic finished Munching, then i seriously need to go to Bed
01:22:53 <tswett> lifthrasiir: but "AC" and "ACEFSDALKJ" are valid fillings of it.
01:22:56 <lifthrasiir> (hmm, was a bit sleepy and had a bad joke, sorry)
01:25:45 <tswett> Now, a "path", in practice, is going to be a sequence of states, where two consecutive states differ by one of them being a more specified version of the other.
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01:26:15 <tswett> lifthrasiir: it does? I've used Mercurial, and I don't remember it having anything like partially specified states.
01:26:42 <lifthrasiir> ah, that would be a difference (and actually I don't yet get the idea of partially specified tree)
01:27:06 <tswett> Let's forget trees; let's say that this version control system only deals with single strings.
01:27:58 <tswett> "ACD" and "ACE" are valid strings. "AC*" isn't a valid string; it's a "partially specifed state", referring to any of various strings.
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01:28:35 <lifthrasiir> tswett: still "AC" *is* a valid string, right?
01:29:45 <tswett> We have individual points or states.
01:30:12 <tswett> We also have paths, which are composed of atomic changes that can be made. These are like edges in a graph.
01:30:17 <tswett> And we can take that further!
01:31:34 <tswett> There are also things corresponding to faces, or 2-cells, and then there are also 3-cells, and...
01:31:42 <tswett> Well, let me summarize.
01:32:00 <tswett> A "0-cell" is just a state. AC* or BCE or whatever.
01:32:14 <tswett> A "1-cell", or path, explains "how to get from one state to another".
01:32:30 <tswett> Then there are also "2-cells", which explain "how to get from one path to another".
01:32:53 <tswett> You might imagine that, for some reason, a single revision has two different histories behind it.
01:33:57 <tswett> There's an initial revision, and a final revision, and two distinct ways of getting from the initial revision to the final revision.
01:35:28 <tswett> You might want to have some sort of explanation of how the two histories are equivalent.
01:37:29 <tswett> Now, I've gotta go to bed, so I can't explain further.
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03:00:05 <oerjan> shachaf: ooh (list), our hero returns just in time to save the day and be obliterated for it
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03:27:42 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> HTF do you spell that word!? <-- exorcise hth
03:30:53 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> And see what happened <-- obviously dwarfs developed mecha in the 1500s, then conquered the other races hth
03:41:11 <FreeFull> It's like exercise but the second e is an o
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00:07:33 <copumpkin> how's the certification authority?
00:08:06 <lambdabot> KIAD 152352Z 32010KT 10SM FEW038 11/03 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP125 T01060033 10156 20106 53028
00:08:45 <shachaf> or maybe usually cold for december, i don't know
00:08:55 <lambdabot> KOAK 152353Z 03010KT 10SM FEW220 13/M04 A3017 RMK AO2 SLP215 T01331044 10150 20106 53000
00:09:30 <lambdabot> KORF 152351Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR 13/09 A2985 RMK AO2 SLP107 T01280094 10211 20128 51022 TSNO
00:09:32 <lambdabot> KRIC 152354Z 33004KT 10SM CLR 12/06 A2985 RMK AO2 SLP114 T01170061 10200 20117 51022
00:09:41 <shachaf> i don't remember where in the state you are
00:09:51 <lambdabot> ENVA 152350Z 24016KT 9999 -DZ SCT019 BKN026 04/01 Q1022 RMK WIND 670FT 24020G30KT
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00:15:38 <HackEgo> Mayu172: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
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00:16:53 <oerjan> esoteric programming languages
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00:22:26 <lambdabot> CYYZ 160000Z 34012KT 15SM FEW020 BKN028 03/M01 A2994 RMK SC2SC4 SLP142
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00:54:59 <lambdabot> EGLL 160050Z AUTO 20011KT 7000 -RA BKN007 OVC016 13/12 Q1014 BECMG BKN016
00:55:06 <fizzie> That's like nighttime.
00:55:12 <fizzie> Tomorrow it's supposed to be 16 degrees.
00:56:20 <fizzie> One of the outdoor ads (for heaters, or insulation, or windows, or something like that) said something like "England is cold - deal with it", which was kind of ridiculous at least from a Finnish point of view.
00:56:25 <lambdabot> EFHK 160050Z 26006KT 9999 FEW028 SCT200 00/M01 Q1021 NOSIG
00:58:05 <lambdabot> YSSY 160038Z 08020G30KT 9999 VCTS SCT016 BKN080 FEW030CB 20/18 Q1015 FM0200 06018KT 9999 -SHRA SCT015 BKN025 TEMPO 0038/0338 VRB25G40KT 3000 TSRA BKN010 SCT030CB
01:02:17 <lifthrasiir> https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/blob/ef50f1f/src/process.py#L1045 I feel hopeless.
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01:03:48 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: wow, that's an awfulbug
01:05:18 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: it really is frustrating, it is completely independent of glyph composition and cmap format; the only relevant factor seems to be a glyph index (plus a script).
01:05:49 <lifthrasiir> Uniscribe internally uses dozens of shaping engines, and some of them seems to have this problem
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01:07:15 <lifthrasiir> I still hope (!) that I was wrong and my font had a problem, but the erratic behavior suggests that it isn't the case here
01:07:34 <\oren\> hmm. I wonder why I haven't seen it yet. well, I still haven't got thousands of hangul
01:07:47 <\oren\> I should probably work on that now
01:08:26 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: in the specific example, Hangul syllables started to map from glyph index 2008 thru 13179. only 40 glyphs from 2008 to 2047 had the problem.
01:08:42 <\oren\> what's Effi's finest fluffy waffles?
01:09:05 <\oren\> Ah. well in my font those would prbably not end up being hangul.
01:10:07 <\oren\> maybe it would fall into the range of weird mat symbols?
01:11:01 <lifthrasiir> "<\oren\> Ah. well in my font those would prbably not end up being hangul."
01:11:36 <\oren\> oh. I mean that those glyph indices would be math symbols
01:12:20 <lifthrasiir> well, glyph indices are independent of characters
01:12:58 <\oren\> yeah. and my cmap is mostly sorted by unicode point
01:13:57 <lifthrasiir> heh, then it may mean that you have only about 0x2000 characters before Hangul syllables
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01:43:16 <boily> fungot: say, how many nostrils do you have?
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01:48:39 * boily mapoles the fungot
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01:53:52 <fungot> lifthrasiir: because you can't have a secure, undisclosed location, to the existing facilities. nothing unnatural in that.
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01:54:08 <fungot> lifthrasiir: the definition of standard ml," especially the part about identifiers only reads " the regular expression test with a few bugs fixed.
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02:16:17 <boily> unexpecthellørjan!
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02:35:44 <boily> børjanne nuit! good nigthrasiir! bfungonne nuitt!
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02:36:52 <oerjan> i think he's used that adjective before.
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03:00:43 <\oren\> I now have all medials done
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03:01:36 <\oren\> so thus I can generate hangul from G-A to G-I-H
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07:01:30 <oerjan> hm i say this girl genius comic makes higgs even more likely to be the "spymaster"...
07:01:52 <oerjan> because he and gil were the ones who witnessed it
07:03:56 <oerjan> jenka said she had a message from the spymaster
07:04:13 <oerjan> and higgs is _very_ well positioned to spy on gil...
07:04:23 <oerjan> since gil thinks he's doing the opposite.
07:06:27 <oerjan> well, maybe. he probably suspects, he saw through wooster after all.
07:08:31 <Ellbereth> but what does this have to do with esoteric programming languages?
07:09:08 <Ellbereth> Then why are you talking about it in #esoteric
07:09:56 <oerjan> because the comic is popular here
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07:10:22 <oerjan> admittedly no one else who read it seems to be awake...
07:11:34 <oerjan> http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php#.VnEKlcHKxjo
07:11:47 <oerjan> ...there's that stupid anchor again
07:12:11 <oerjan> i think i got rid of it once by blocking something...
07:13:49 <oerjan> dammit so many ad sites on this page
07:14:04 <shachaf> http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comi.php#⚓ hth
07:14:32 <oerjan> shachaf: i think you typoed something?
07:14:44 <shachaf> that was meant to be comic.php
07:15:00 <oerjan> the point is that it redirects to the anchor
07:15:16 <oerjan> because of some script running on it
07:16:29 <shachaf> and reading about us tax law
07:26:36 <lambdabot> LOWI 160720Z VRB01KT 9999 SCT070 BKN150 M02/M03 Q1030 TEMPO FM0800 -FZRA
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07:36:00 <olsner> oh, lambdabot has metar now?
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07:50:02 <fizzie> "Now"? It's been like ages!
07:50:57 <lambdabot> EGLL 160720Z AUTO 22010KT 9999 BKN013 OVC024 13/11 Q1016 TEMPO SCT013 BKN024
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07:57:01 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/PSjY see how it shifts
07:57:24 <fizzie> (No calls to either pre-2013.)
08:01:37 <olsner> wow, if you manage to have a multiple of 256 conflicts in a merge, git would treat it as successful
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09:20:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45889&oldid=45878 * Luis Mendo * (+0) /* Compiler */
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09:30:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45890&oldid=45889 * Luis Mendo * (+64) /* Specification */
09:31:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45891&oldid=45890 * Luis Mendo * (-766)
09:32:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45892&oldid=45891 * Luis Mendo * (-107) /* Language specification and compiler */
09:33:55 <Taneb> olsner, do you have a source or an interesting blog post about that?
09:36:38 <b_jonas> Oh, I should have expected this. Savage Chickens has a Force Awakens week.
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10:49:13 <b_jonas> fungot: do you prefer St. Veteran Day to St. Arbor Day?
10:49:14 <fungot> b_jonas: if you differentiate something, use a point size if you run that through an antenna you make out of the soil, it's entirely fnord motivated. what if it doesn't
10:49:38 <b_jonas> fungot: is there an easier proof for that the boundary of a closed set in RR^n is a null set?
10:49:39 <fungot> b_jonas: that's for chicken? :) that just makes you look like right to left.
10:49:56 <b_jonas> fungot: dunno, Lebesgue's theorym seems a bit heavy for that.
10:49:56 <fungot> b_jonas: but the purpose for brainfuck's existance is an idiot filter :p i'm just awfully silly hash tables. that sort of thing
10:52:47 <fizzie> The truth, revealed: fungot is actually just a set of awfully silly hash tables.
10:52:47 <fungot> fizzie: verry good. however, i've heard
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10:59:41 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 1d 14h 41m 2s ago: I suppose it is a constructed world
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11:53:17 <HackEgo> intercal/INTERCAL has excellent features for modular program for the enterprise market.
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12:28:28 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's J
12:28:35 <j-bot> Taneb: |value error: i
12:28:42 <j-bot> Taneb: _10 _9 _8 _7 _6 _5 _4 _3 _2 _1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
12:28:51 <Taneb> It's been a long time since I've J'd
12:28:58 <Taneb> And I was never any good at it
12:32:56 <HackEgo> disflagrate/disflagrate v.t.perf.: a traditional technique from Poland (earliest attestation c. 1042) used to separate szoups. Nowadays, commercial production is entirely mechanized.
12:34:27 <HackEgo> defenestration? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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12:39:04 <int-e> `le/rn */Twinkle, twinkle, little star!
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13:58:54 <Taneb> izabera, what does arin.ga use for syntax highlighting?
13:59:53 <izabera> something regex based i mostly copied from a stackoverflow post
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14:01:44 <Taneb> It doesn't get /* */ comments, it seems
14:02:01 <izabera> it does if they're in a single line
14:02:32 <izabera> http://phoboslab.org/log/2007/08/generic-syntax-highlighting-with-regular-expressions <- this
14:02:55 <Taneb> Is the website open source?
14:04:10 <izabera> it's hard to make it work on multiple lines because i had to add some extra markup for something (to make the lines have different colors iirc)
14:04:20 <izabera> i don't really remember it, it's old
14:05:49 <Taneb> Oh wow, that's lighter than I expected
14:06:48 <izabera> it's not ebay, it's a pastebin
14:07:09 <Taneb> I think I just find web scary
14:08:17 <Taneb> Maybe because I tend to overcomplicate things
14:10:46 <fizzie> I use the "highlight" Debian package to do syntax highlighting for my "website".
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14:12:10 <fizzie> Because calling it a website makes it sound too much like a thing.
14:12:28 <Taneb> fizzie, have you seen my website
14:13:08 <Taneb> Which I bought then didn't do anything with
14:13:43 <izabera> http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/
14:13:49 <izabera> http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/
14:23:05 <fizzie> I did a "blog" (same reason) with zem.fi, but I think I won't have any updates in 2015.
14:26:14 <\oren\> taneb: why is there nothing on your website
14:26:25 <Taneb> \oren\, I couldn't think of anything to put on
14:26:30 <Taneb> And now I've lost the ssh credentials
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14:39:46 <int-e> Taneb: Well it's more informative than my own website (unless you find a "deep link" somewhere ;) ) http://int-e.eu/
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16:01:26 <b_jonas> fungot, what's in your pockets?
16:01:27 <fungot> b_jonas: or silly theorems that bill richter understands absolutely nothing written in that crap language scheme after all
16:24:33 <mroman> bill richter doesn't know scheme?
16:24:38 <mroman> fungot: who's that guy?
16:24:38 <fungot> mroman: gcc ( gcc) 3.3 20030304 ( apple computer, inc.
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16:26:15 <fizzie> fungot: That's kind of old, how about switching to the GCC 5 series?
16:26:16 <fungot> fizzie: they may be found.'
16:26:31 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, indeed, from the home page.
16:26:31 <fungot> fizzie: but i'm running windows! windows! windows! windows!
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16:31:14 <shachaf> fungot: you can use mingw or cygwin
16:31:15 <fungot> shachaf: you can't have infinite calls that generate output." is an adjective. :p
16:40:44 <fungot> mroman: is that natural? humans don't live off food and water only. we do not need fun!"
16:41:04 <mroman> fungot: what do we need then?
16:41:04 <fungot> mroman: if that's what you're insinuating.
16:41:23 <mroman> I just watched this video that demonstrates how some snake venom interacts with blood
16:41:43 <mroman> That's gotta be very inconvenient if that stuff gets into your blood stream.
16:41:49 <mroman> It solidifies your blood within seconds.
16:45:08 <mroman> well pretty much all venom is going to be very inconvenient obviously
16:45:43 <mroman> Either it destroys tissues, induces blood coagulation or freakier
16:47:41 <mroman> " A study carried out in 2009 injected scorpions with the venom of various Echis species. "
16:47:56 <mroman> Science is really creepy
16:48:10 <mroman> "Hey let's inject venom into some animals and look what happens"
16:53:05 <mroman> "Let's see what this does to quadriplegic mice"
16:53:20 <mroman> (incidentally the author didn't mention what they did to them to make them quadriplegic)
16:54:13 <shachaf> mromna: i assume that fungot isn't human, so the implication was that humans need fun but fungots do not
16:54:14 <fungot> shachaf: that sounds better. so there is a more abstract api.
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18:12:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PolyStack]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45893 * Hppavilion1 * (+4041) Started
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18:13:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PolyStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45894&oldid=45893 * Hppavilion1 * (+86) /* Builtin Types, Type Classes, etc. */
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18:25:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PolyStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45895&oldid=45894 * Hppavilion1 * (+1501) /* Commands */ Scalar Types
18:25:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PolyStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45896&oldid=45895 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) /* Syntax */ Fixed the program
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18:30:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PolyStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45897&oldid=45896 * Hppavilion1 * (+565) /* Commands */ Assorted new commands
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18:46:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[JSON++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45898&oldid=45888 * Hppavilion1 * (+17) /* Syntax */ Nowiki
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19:05:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Chain]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45899 * Hppavilion1 * (+366) Created Page
19:20:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Seed]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45900&oldid=45686 * Conor O'Brien * (-24) /* Writing programs */ fixed display of pre ('' would create italics before)
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20:11:21 <izabera> i sorted my torrents by share ratio and the top ones are nsfw
20:11:57 <izabera> then there's a huge gap and most of the rest is at 0.1-0.5
20:12:51 <int-e> you managed to find something that's off topic for this channel?
20:13:50 <int-e> (just an opinion, but it does seem rather far removed from our usual conversation)
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20:16:26 <izabera> i'm just wondering if my porn tastes are way common or the rest of my interests is awkward
20:17:51 <izabera> is there something like esoteric porn?
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20:19:34 <mauris> clearly, the esoteric thing here is that you torrent porn
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20:20:47 <izabera> i mean those are the ones with the highest share ratio
20:21:28 <izabera> i also torrent books and they look far more esoteric
20:21:45 <FireFly> I'd say something that in mainstream is likely to give you a lower share ratio, because there's so many seeding it
20:22:00 <mauris> (i'm joking) (the joke is "most people these days just watch HD video streams or whatever")
20:22:03 <FireFly> something that is obscure and esoteric is more likely to give you a high share ratio if you are one of very few seeders
20:22:35 <FireFly> At least that's uh something I've observed with some uh music
20:24:18 <FireFly> actually video game soundtrack arrangements
20:25:14 <izabera> i'm listening to touhou right now
20:29:37 <FireFly> Actually what I was thinking of was F-Zero X and Disgaea, but touhou arranges are also nice
20:29:47 <FireFly> (the former two are official CDs with arrangements though)
20:33:01 <FireFly> Though for touhou I usually just rely on online radio
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20:47:42 <Deewiant> https://www.reddit.com/r/esolangs/comments/3wzjae/pixesoteric_a_2d_bitmap_based_befunge_style/
20:53:39 <izabera> http://everyfuckingwebsite.com/
20:55:28 <mauris> https://www.reddit.com/r/esolangs/comments/3gakuy/if_the_answer_is_church_integer_42_which_lambda/ ???
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21:00:37 <myname> did anybody posted a link for this 256 git commit thingie earlier this day?
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21:02:09 <int-e> mauris: I'll wait for a summary
21:06:09 <int-e> > (\n f x -> n f (n (n f) x)) (\f x -> f (f (f (f (f (f x)))))) succ 0
21:10:42 <FireFly> mauris: who let fungot on reddit
21:10:43 <fungot> FireFly: how much do you pay, pitecus?. f) t) fnord redexes!
21:11:50 <int-e> and when did fungot become greedy?
21:11:51 <fungot> int-e: and not, um,? for help. soon the lure of a small community of fnord geeks.
21:11:55 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:12:22 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
21:13:01 <fungot> FireFly: not that we conclude the investigation the securities and exchange commission.
21:13:03 <int-e> fungot: tell us about bribery and racketeering
21:13:03 <fungot> int-e: first and foremost you think......................tony mcconnell and me not to enpower. shanbhogue chapter in.
21:13:18 <FireFly> fungot: don't tell me what to think
21:13:18 <fungot> FireFly: we file the accounts that had a different that what you and beth will continue. 120,? you
21:13:48 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
21:13:51 <fungot> FireFly: ah ha! thats the one i got it right
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21:40:16 <izabera> pick your favourite https://i.imgur.com/RTK89fX.png
21:42:58 <izabera> 1. the unreadable green on white text 3. the unreadable green on white text with higher contrast in the rest of the picture or 2
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21:55:17 <int-e> izabera: please tell me there are other options
21:56:26 <izabera> FireFly: context https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-bash/2015-12/msg00116.html
21:57:22 <izabera> int-e: nope but i guess you can add a 4th option with a small hack on google docs
21:58:02 <FireFly> I like the typeface for 'BASH' the best in #2 at least
21:58:11 <FireFly> or weight, rather, I guess
21:58:37 <FireFly> and I don't like the use of green in the subtitle, so I guess #2
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22:28:21 * oerjan looks in vain for his all-seeing eyes
22:33:24 <oerjan> ok tunes is about 8 hours off UTC
22:34:47 <oerjan> so i _think_ it's only been gone for less than an hour.
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22:52:05 <oerjan> <b_jonas> fungot: is there an easier proof for that the boundary of a closed set in RR^n is a null set? <-- um that's true in all topologies, and pretty trivial?
22:52:06 <fungot> oerjan: why are you debugging gc, btw
22:52:13 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas <b_jonas> fungot: is there an easier proof for that the boundary of a closed set in RR^n is a null set? <-- um that's true in all topologies, and pretty trivial?
22:52:14 <fungot> oerjan: and then there's one huuto.net page. am i a her or a he? of course
22:53:22 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas erm wait, that's false, including in R^n. is RR^n something different?
22:58:31 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*fenes*: No such file or directory
23:05:25 <oerjan> `learn Defenestration is the traditional Czech system for voting out government officials.
23:05:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'defenestration': Defenestration is the traditional Czech system for voting out government officials.
23:06:13 <shachaf> oerjan: It seems like it would be false in most spaces.
23:06:47 <oerjan> any hausdorff space with more than one point, at least.
23:07:35 <oerjan> it's true in discrete spaces
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23:07:59 <oerjan> because there all boundaries are null
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00:44:02 <HackEgo> hello/hello hello hello, what's all this then?
00:44:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: host: not found
00:44:21 <HackEgo> vector space/A vector space is just a module over a field.
00:44:22 <HackEgo> madness/madness lies thataway.
00:44:33 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ curl: (52) Empty reply from server
00:44:43 <HackEgo> :-( \ (* \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ butwhatifichangesomething \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
00:45:03 <tswett> I'm kinda surprised that the Pascal comment is still there.
00:45:51 <oerjan> bohily. straight into my top ten list of serendipitous one-letter misreadings goes http://www.nhm.ac.uk/natureplus/blogs/behind-the-scenes/2014/03/26/how-a-seaweed-scientist-helped-win-the-war?fromGateway=true
00:45:58 <HackEgo> Complaints file lacks file extension making it look like a directory. Which is confusing \ The above complaint looks like an error message, but it's actually a complaint \ now the former complaints make no sense because the complaints file was moved \ The complaints above are not using periods properly.
00:47:20 <shachaf> oerjan: where is the rest of the list twh
00:49:02 <shachaf> the top ten list that you referred to in your previous line of irc
00:49:43 <shachaf> http://www.textfiles.com/underconstruction/
00:49:49 <oerjan> `` grep -i pascal wisdom/*
00:49:53 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
00:50:06 <oerjan> `` grep -i pascal quotes
00:50:14 <oerjan> tswett: WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT
00:51:40 <tswett> `run echo "All of the complaints are about the complaints file itself." >> Complaints.mp3
00:52:10 <oerjan> tswett: that's not how you file a complaint hth
00:52:26 <oerjan> `complain Some people don't use the right command for filing complaints.
00:52:28 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
00:52:29 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" >> Complaints.mp3; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.
00:52:42 <tswett> `run type print_args_or_input
00:52:43 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input is /hackenv/bin/print_args_or_input
00:52:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: type: not found
00:53:01 <shachaf> oerjan: do you file complaints with `file complaints twh
00:53:37 <tswett> /topic children each children each children
00:53:57 <boily> all men in each men ♪
00:54:16 <tswett> It's a quote from this expression I came up with.
00:54:29 <tswett> The Quendle expression for getting all of Bob's great-grandchildren:
00:54:38 <tswett> People[name="Bob"].children each children each children
00:54:48 <oerjan> is this some of what happened when the logs were down
00:55:44 <hppavilion[1]> A series of extremely focused and limited DSLs, all following a general pattern, to teach people about different facets of programming
00:56:01 <tswett> I think that's an interesting idea.
00:56:02 <hppavilion[1]> Someone immersed the hard drive in water for too long
00:57:35 <boily> hppavellon[1]. to down: to be unavailable. to drown: to also be unavailable.
00:58:19 <boily> hmm... projarsers? parsect?
00:58:48 <hppavilion[1]> For learning about different facets of programming, etc.
00:58:50 <tswett> Don't ask me. It took me, like, a couple of hours to figure out what to call my query language.
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00:59:00 <tswett> Have I told you guys about my query language? Let me give you an example query.
00:59:09 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: You just have to choose 1 letter. That's all it takes.
00:59:25 <boily> tswellott. did you call it languery?
00:59:29 <tswett> This query is for getting all of the great-grandchildren of the person named Bob. The language is called Quendle.
00:59:34 <tswett> People[name="Bob"].children each children each children
01:00:53 <boily> your time is weird hth
01:02:04 <boily> Très Douce Ton Oubliette Œuvrée d'Hippopotames?
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01:03:33 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: are you in... UTC?
01:04:00 <tswett> Ah, right. Wrong direction.
01:04:15 <tswett> The UTC would have been 23:54:37.
01:04:42 <hppavilion[1]> What types of languages do I have to add to my facets-of-programming thing?
01:04:45 <lambdabot> Local time for tswett is Thu Dec 17 01:04:45 2015
01:05:20 <tswett> We're outside DST right now, so I'm in UTC-5, not UTC-4.
01:05:30 <hppavilion[1]> Probably, at least Markup, Stylesheet, Imperative, Functional, Logic, and Query
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01:08:12 <Taneb> I mean, that's why we're all speaking English, right? Because it's an esoteric spoken language, and hence on topic in here?
01:08:58 <boily> what would be considered the esotericest conlang?
01:09:33 <mauris> arguably any of the artsy ones
01:11:43 <mauris> natural languages, and regular programming languages exist to make *something* easier for *someone*. but "art" conlangs, like esolangs, exist just because they're neat
01:12:54 <mauris> boily: ohh, Ithkuil is obviously the esotericest
01:13:11 <mauris> i hope you don't know about it because then you get to learn about it
01:13:56 <mauris> Both nominal and verbal formatives are inflected to one of the possible 3 stems, 3 patterns, 2 designations (formal or informal), 9 configurations, 4 affiliations, 4 perspectives, 6 extensions, 2 foci, 4 contexts, 2 essences, and 81 cases; formatives also can take on some of the 153 affixes, which are further qualified into one of 9 degrees.
01:14:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45901&oldid=45879 * Rottytooth * (+1917) /* Instructions */ add pure folders syntax
01:15:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45902&oldid=45901 * Rottytooth * (+1) /* Commands */
01:15:10 <boily> yes, I know about ithkuil :D
01:15:32 <boily> have you ever read http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/12/24/utopian-for-beginners ?
01:15:33 <shachaf> mauris: are there any secrets for constructing minimal acyclic DFAs?
01:15:55 <hppavilion[1]> A TRUE esolang born from the failure that was LolCode
01:16:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Rottytooth * uploaded "[[File:PureFolders HelloWorld.png]]": Folders Hello World not using folder names
01:16:58 <mauris> shachaf: i think i can answer your question with a "yes" but that's only because i googled it :[ RIP the illusion that i am some kind of automata expert
01:17:16 <shachaf> well if you found it via a quick google search then it's hardly a secret, is it
01:17:17 <boily> hppavilion[1]: as long as there are diæresises in it, I'm fine ^^
01:18:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45904&oldid=45902 * Rottytooth * (+35) /* Examples */ added second Hello World
01:18:30 <shachaf> mauris: didn't you teach people about automata?
01:18:49 <mauris> (otoh: if there was a secret way and i knew it, i wouldn't tell you!!)
01:19:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45905&oldid=45904 * Rottytooth * (+5) /* Hello World */ fixed image
01:19:09 <shachaf> well i'd keep the secret so it'd still be secret
01:19:30 <mauris> nah, not really; i helped out with some practical stuff and wrote a bunch of exam questions for the people actually teaching the course
01:19:51 <hppavilion[1]> Now I need to figure out how to make an esoteric lolcode
01:20:07 <mauris> i didn't venture far out of Hopcroft's book (and we never even finished it, boo)
01:20:07 <shachaf> anyway how should i construct a minimal acyclic dfa
01:20:18 <shachaf> and is it really much better than a prefix tree anyway
01:20:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Rottytooth * uploaded a new version of "[[File:PureFolders HelloWorld.png]]": Folders Hello World not using folder names
01:20:33 <shachaf> also is there a radix tree version
01:20:47 <mauris> it looks like reading this thingy carefully http://www.aclweb.org/anthology/J00-1002 is a popular solution
01:21:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45907&oldid=45905 * Rottytooth * (-1) /* Instructions */
01:21:14 <mauris> i can't believe people use "for ... rof" in pseudocode examples, oh my goddd
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01:22:36 <shachaf> func ... cnuf is a new one
01:24:01 <mauris> i need this paper to end with its own title in reverse
01:24:33 <mauris> also here is a juicy secret:
01:25:01 <mauris> i like this \usepackage{mathpazo} look so much more than the default latex look
01:25:38 <mauris> i don't see it nearly often enough!! computer modern is so boring and palatino is so readable ;_;
01:26:04 <shachaf> i assume mathpazo is a variant of gazpacho
01:27:24 <shachaf> is there a standard measure of how far off a DAG is from a tree?
01:27:42 <shachaf> for example if you turned the dag into a tree by duplicating a bunch of nodes, how many nodes would you need to add
01:28:03 <boily> mauris: stop being me. I always use \userpackage[sc]{mathpazo} (and \linespread{1.05}).
01:28:38 <mauris> boily: haha, excellent
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01:29:41 <boily> re the Wisdom PDF. it uses that, along with Vietnamese and Greek oddities.
01:29:44 <mauris> i'm not picky about linespread. i do, however, dislike the \parindent style of marking paragraph starts, and end up replacing it with vertical spacing most of the time i make documents for myself, oops
01:30:53 <mauris> (apparently that's a big "don't" in the world of, i dunno, writing papers in latex? but that's how everyone does it! and it's so easy on my eyes)
01:31:07 <mauris> (everyone as in. web pages)
01:31:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45908&oldid=45907 * Rottytooth * (+588) FoldersOS
01:31:40 <mauris> it is totally heresy though
01:33:10 <mauris> further latexpinions: \usepackage{cmbright} actually looks decent! there's something weirdly relaxing about sans-serif equations. and AMS Euler looks fffff horrible bad
01:34:11 <boily> that's like, your typeset opinion, dude.
01:34:13 <mauris> i mean https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/AMS_Euler_sample_math.svg/800px-AMS_Euler_sample_math.svg.png <--- look at that "i sin y", jeez
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01:39:37 <boily> `relcome triggerwarning
01:39:39 <HackEgo> triggerwarning: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:41:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Rottytooth * uploaded a new version of "[[File:PureFolders HelloWorld.png]]": Reverted to version as of 01:16, 17 December 2015
01:43:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45910&oldid=45908 * Rottytooth * (+3) /* Hello World */
01:44:16 <HackEgo> odtizurcoin wolrcoin archwacoin arbabticlcoin camcoin musiancoin backcoin befuchcoin oafedouccoin fracticcoin boozlecoin purecoin um-32coin sortcoin revicoin concoin calcoin 1221coin dumbergineecoin thisccoin
01:44:30 <boily> ah, nothing like a paragraphful of colours.
01:46:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45911&oldid=45910 * Rottytooth * (+5) /* Hello World */
01:47:26 <FireFly> It's interesting, I can't decide if I like it though
01:48:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45912&oldid=45911 * Rottytooth * (-7) /* Hello World */
01:49:08 <FireFly> Fontwise, my go-to serif font is Linux Libertine
01:49:38 <FireFly> Although the font used in the wisdom pdf is quite nice
01:50:35 <FireFly> mauris: I think I prefer spacing over indent to separate paragraphs too, but I've slowly grown used to indent
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01:54:12 <HackEgo> dc is short for "dump core". (try it out yourself: dc -e '[')
01:54:18 <FireFly> it's not a bug; it's a feature
01:54:21 <\oren\> why would it segfault?
01:54:53 <FireFly> Well, not officially documented as far as I know
01:55:21 <FireFly> \oren\: [foo] pushes a string foo. I guess it tries to read outside the string
01:55:28 <HackEgo> dc (GNU bc 1.06.95) 1.3.95 \ \ Copyright 1994, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2004, 2005, 2006 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, \ to the extent permitted by law.
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01:57:30 <boily> FireFly: FirelloFly. fyi, it's Palatino hth.
01:58:13 <\oren\> argh i forgot how to get C quoates in bash
01:58:26 <lifthrasiir> also, it seems that bash shallows \0 anywqy
01:58:40 <FireFly> Could make a C program and exec I guess
01:58:59 <lifthrasiir> (of course, even after it passes through bash, dc probably won't accept that)
01:59:15 <FireFly> I think the idea was to test that, lifthrasiir
01:59:32 <\oren\> well it didn't segfault
01:59:52 <\oren\> `` dc -e \[$'\0asdf'\]p
01:59:53 <FireFly> Well, if it's just fed [] because bash disregards the null..
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02:00:05 <\oren\> `` dc -e \[$'asdf\0'\]p
02:00:14 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: well, I think `printf '[\0]p' | dc` would be correct
02:00:38 <FireFly> `` printf '[\0]p' | hexdump -C
02:00:39 <HackEgo> 00000000 5b 00 5d 70 |[.]p| \ 00000004
02:01:04 <FireFly> `` printf '[a\0b]p' | dc | hexdump -C
02:01:05 <HackEgo> 00000000 61 00 62 0a |a.b.| \ 00000004
02:01:23 <\oren\> `` dc -e \[$'\0'\]p | xxd
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02:01:50 <\oren\> apparently dc uses asciz internally
02:02:04 <\oren\> `` dc -e \[$'foo\0bar'\]p | xxd
02:03:02 <HackEgo> \\\¯\\\\\\\(\\\°\\\_\\\o\\\)\\\/\\\¯\\\?\\\ \\\¯\\\\\\\(\\\°\\\_\\\o\\\)\\\/\\\¯
02:06:03 <lambdabot> CYYZ 170100Z 12011G17KT 15SM FEW021 BKN140 BKN250 05/03 A2979 RMK SC2AS3CI2 SLP095
02:06:21 <lambdabot> ESSB 170150Z AUTO 17003KT 9999 OVC012/// M01/M03 Q1018
02:08:10 <HackEgo> Braid theory is the extremely twisted theory of braids.
02:09:28 <FireFly> `learn Bride theory is a theory involving headhunters who dress in yellow
02:09:30 <HackEgo> Learned 'bride': Bride theory is a theory involving headhunters who dress in yellow
02:10:10 <FireFly> `le/rn Bride theory/Bride theory is a theory involving a headhunter who dresses in yellow
02:10:18 <HackEgo> Bride theory is a theory involving a headhunter who dresses in yellow
02:10:25 <FireFly> I didn't mess that up, good
02:11:00 <FireFly> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/'bride theory'
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02:13:10 <FireFly> boily: I would like to report a misformatting in the 'category theory' entry in the pdf
02:14:39 <boily> also, did I add you to the cocoonspirators?
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02:15:34 <FireFly> I don't know, probably not
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02:16:19 <FireFly> Hm, maybe it isn't a misformatting
02:17:09 <boily> do you have a github account?
02:17:20 <FireFly> The issue is that 'In', 'The' etc are boldface even when they aren't part of the entry's name, but if it uses the description environment I guess it's tricky to do something about that
02:18:37 <boily> you now have full commit access to the Thing.
02:18:58 <boily> it's tricky, and some people in this fine chännel like to pose a challenge.
02:19:03 * boily looks askew at oerjan
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02:25:23 <oerjan> i'll just point out that a few days after i finally got a github account, my computer's hard drive started breaking. this is clearly a bad omen telling that it's not good to press such issues hth
02:25:43 <boily> hellœrjan. that goes without saying. it's common sense.
02:26:28 <oerjan> i'm only gradually starting to trust the new one. it still occasionally makes clicking sounds when windows is doing stuff in the background.
02:27:18 <FireFly> `` ? catamorphism | sed 's/catamorphism/\x02&\x0F/'
02:27:23 <HackEgo> A catamorphism is when you recurse too greedily and too deep.
02:27:50 <boily> an interesting idea.
02:28:13 <boily> oerjan: close windows in the background. zenify your computer. the machine that does none, does all.
02:28:43 <oerjan> boily: i've sometimes done that.
02:29:47 <HackEgo> Holy water is water made by boiling the hell out of Spain.
02:29:55 * FireFly would like to note that Hell is located in Norway, not Spain
02:30:42 <oerjan> `learn Bottom is where you might end up with a catamorphism, if not careful. There be balrogs.
02:30:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'bottom': Bottom is where you might end up with a catamorphism, if not careful. There be balrogs.
02:31:17 <oerjan> `learn Balrogs live at the bottom of the world.
02:31:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'balrog': Balrogs live at the bottom of the world.
02:31:36 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/holy\ water
02:31:54 <boily> how many HP is a balrog worth?
02:32:02 <oerjan> FireFly: just a few minutes east of here, in fact.
02:32:19 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/**: No such file or directory
02:32:23 <HackEgo> Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
02:33:06 <FireFly> oerjan: clearly your approximate coördinates are 'hell', then
02:36:51 <oerjan> it's technically a different municipality. i don't think it even borders trondheim directly.
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02:37:20 <oerjan> in fact it's a different county, but they're working to fix that.
02:38:30 <lifthrasiir> He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. -> I want a special casing in ? to randomize that word.
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02:39:08 <FireFly> `` shuf -n 1 /usr/share/dict/words
02:39:09 <HackEgo> shuf: /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory
02:39:13 <boily> perhaps it's a noooooooooooooodl word? amoooooooooooooortized.
02:39:39 <boily> or a szoup word? amortisszed.
02:39:42 <oerjan> that google doodle of beethoven in the search results looks rather hellish
02:40:30 <lambdabot> CYUL 170200Z 10006KT 15SM OVC023 01/M03 A3008 RMK SC8 SLP191
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02:41:00 <FireFly> `learn ARIN is the American Registry for Internet Numbers. Or a pastebin service; one of the two.
02:41:02 <HackEgo> Learned 'arin': ARIN is the American Registry for Internet Numbers. Or a pastebin service; one of the two.
02:41:52 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: um if you randomize it how can i then look it up when i forget it ;_;
02:41:53 <FireFly> The intended reading might be the italian word for herring, but that doesn't prevent me from reading it as ARIN every time
02:42:05 <FireFly> oerjan: easy, just put it in `? amortized instead
02:42:50 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
02:43:09 <FireFly> I can only offer you solutions
02:43:18 <FireFly> It's not my fault if you're not happy with them
02:45:31 <FireFly> `le/rn swatter/The swatter is a tool for punishment commonly found in #esoteric.
02:46:22 <FireFly> `le/rn swatter/The swatter is a tool for punishment commonly found in #esoteric. Not to be confused with the saucepan or mapoles.
02:46:59 <FireFly> Although a sweater might also be a tool for punishment, especially if it's particularly warm outside
02:47:32 * oerjan swats FireFly for not using `learn when appropriate.
02:47:54 <shachaf> I guess you might've meant outside the sweater.
02:48:04 <FireFly> I didn't realise it would take care of the article
02:48:13 <HackEgo> the Toe of Harriness's Enclosure
02:48:35 <shachaf> FireFly: `learn is practically a journalist.
02:49:06 <FireFly> `learn thé is an oddly-spelled hot beverage popular in the Commonwealth.
02:49:08 <HackEgo> Learned 'thé': thé is an oddly-spelled hot beverage popular in the Commonwealth.
02:49:54 <FireFly> `` sed -i 's/^t/T/ wisdom/thé
02:49:55 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
02:50:00 <FireFly> `` sed -i 's/^t/T/' wisdom/thé
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02:53:31 <FireFly> `culprits wisdom/shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj
03:09:30 <oerjan> `? shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj
03:09:31 <HackEgo> shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj is the reason why the USA don't use the metric system.
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03:55:02 <oerjan> . o O ( PIZZIFIED CHICKEN )
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04:27:55 <FreeFull> In Prolog, a single = is enough
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06:23:09 <lifthrasiir> my thought process today is greatly slowed down due to the lack of a lunch nap
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09:14:35 <HackEgo> Learned '1*1': 1*1 is two.
09:18:43 <mroman> I propose that sqrt(2) doesn't even exist anyway
09:19:08 <mroman> The greeks have known that for centuries now!
09:19:18 <mroman> But we're still told it's something around 1.4...
09:23:06 <mroman> fungot: What's your point on terryology?
09:23:06 <fungot> mroman: besides emacs? :) ( but dont' take my word for it
09:23:12 <mroman> fungot: besides emacs, yes
09:23:20 <mroman> stop the emacs fetishism
09:23:27 <HackEgo> emacs is the weird brother of nano.
09:27:31 <HackEgo> vi is in a relationship with emacs.
09:36:49 <lifthrasiir> `learn vim equals to approximately ccxxxviin.
09:36:51 <HackEgo> Learned 'vim': vim equals to approximately ccxxxviin.
09:37:36 <lifthrasiir> I don't know how to write fractions in roman numerals
09:39:09 <mroman> they had these 1/12 system?
09:41:31 <lifthrasiir> "1/72 sextula, sextulae (1/6 of an uncia), represented by a reversed S (𐆓)."
09:43:35 <mroman> they should have just used the hexadecimal system
09:43:39 <b_jonas> oerjan: RR means blackboard black R in ascii notation, as in the set of reals
09:43:44 <b_jonas> oerjan: and why is it false?
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10:11:20 <oerjan> b_jonas: because e.g. the boundary of a circle is itself.
10:12:07 <oerjan> or even a single point
10:13:04 <oerjan> (inspired by lifthrasiir way above)
10:15:02 <\oren\> reversed s? that's a G with a horn!
10:15:16 <HackEgo> [U+0193 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER G WITH HOOK]
10:16:50 <oerjan> fizzie: no Gregor either
10:18:02 <\oren\> oh, it's my terminal again with the supernal plane characters
10:18:42 <oerjan> b_jonas: basically any closed set with empty interior is its own boundary.
10:20:16 <fizzie> \oren\: Oh, I completely misinterpreted your comment, took it to mean "a G with a horn could be used as an inverted S".
10:20:55 <fizzie> I mean, it's *kind* of true, in the sense that the shape is something a little bit like that, but not really.
10:21:12 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, but those sets are also null sets, due to this result, are they not?
10:21:33 <oerjan> b_jonas: i told you, a single point in R^n is such a set.
10:22:06 <oerjan> as is a circle, and any sane curve...
10:22:34 <b_jonas> Yes, the boundary of a single point in R^n (for n >= 1) is itself, and it's a null set in the n dimensional Lebesgue-measure sense.
10:22:56 <oerjan> i read that as null = empty.
10:23:10 <oerjan> still false though: any non-null cantor set.
10:23:35 <b_jonas> oerjan: um, more precisely? which of those has a non-null boundary?
10:23:49 <oerjan> well they are also their own boundary.
10:24:15 <b_jonas> maybe, but which Cantor set in particular?
10:24:23 <b_jonas> there's too many of them called that
10:25:55 <oerjan> the one where you remove a middle part of a line, then a middle part of each of the remainders, then a middle part of each remainder of _those_ etc. the trick is that if you make the fraction you remove shrink fast enough the result won't have measure 0.
10:26:27 <b_jonas> oerjan: but if you do that, then won't the boundary be smaller?
10:27:57 <b_jonas> you might be right actually. thanks.
10:28:52 <oerjan> b_jonas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith%E2%80%93Volterra%E2%80%93Cantor_set
10:29:14 <fizzie> "you might be right actually" -- heady praise indeed.
10:29:58 <oerjan> well these kind of sets _were_ central to my phd, so i ought to know.
10:32:17 <oerjan> "This makes the Smith–Volterra–Cantor set an example of a closed set whose boundary has positive Lebesgue measure."
10:32:31 <oerjan> fizzie: i'd say the evidence is pretty strong.
10:32:35 <b_jonas> Yes, that set must be all boundary.
10:34:41 <oerjan> b_jonas: that article has several comments directly relevant to your question.
10:35:40 <\oren\> hmm cygwin terminal doesn't have the problem
10:38:38 * oerjan learns of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denjoy%E2%80%93Riesz_theorem
10:39:07 <oerjan> so you can in fact make an example that is a simple closed curve.
10:40:24 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osgood_curve
10:55:04 <oerjan> wow that was added only 4 days ago
10:55:40 <oerjan> david eppstein is the shit
11:13:40 <mroman> Is that the guy from Eppstein-Bar?
11:15:33 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, but (a) that curve thing would be a bit going over the top, and (b) is it even closed in the plane?
11:18:40 <b_jonas> oerjan: the apropos of why this discussion is started is that someone brought up one of those calculus exercises where the statement sounds very simple and elementary, but suggested using more powerful calculus tools to solve it.
11:19:20 <b_jonas> It led a bit far because I tried to understand it and find a proof on my own, but I'm not too good at calculus so I failed so far.
11:19:40 <oerjan> b_jonas: pretty sure the curve thing will be closed if the removed wedges are open
11:20:47 <oerjan> mroman: no that would be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_A._Epstein
11:21:07 <b_jonas> oerjan: if you remove wedges, then it will be closed, but in that case it might be bigger than the curve's image
11:21:18 <b_jonas> oerjan: that can be fine for what I asked, mind you, but then I won't call it a curve
11:22:23 <oerjan> i don't think it will, i think the way the set is constructed every point in it gets a curve parameter by simply reading out a binary expansion
11:22:35 <oerjan> so the curve is exactly the set
11:23:35 <oerjan> it is pretty clear that the triangles converge down to points
11:23:37 <b_jonas> That's possible, but I don't say I see it, and you have to be careful with the construction if you want all that stuff.
11:25:02 <b_jonas> Hmm, so every triangle is dissected to two parts that touch in only one point, and are far everywhere else?
11:25:25 <oerjan> i think the fact that the triangle diameters go to 0 is all you need to show that the curve = everything.
11:25:54 <b_jonas> Yes, that sounds plausible.
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11:50:10 <lambdabot> CYYZ 171100Z 15004KT 15SM FEW060 SCT095 06/05 A2967 RMK SC1AC3 SLP054
11:50:14 <lambdabot> CYUL 171137Z 36005KT 15SM BKN110 BKN240 01/M00 A2985 RMK AC7CI1 CI TR SLP110
11:50:48 <boily> I wonder if we'll get snow before the end of the year.
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12:44:02 <lambdabot> EGLL 171220Z AUTO 20009KT 160V250 9999 NCD 15/09 Q1015 NOSIG
12:44:13 <fizzie> I don't think we'll be getting snow before the end of the year.
12:44:49 <lambdabot> LOWI 171220Z 28003KT 230V320 9999 FEW015 SCT300 09/06 Q1029 NOSIG
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13:20:40 <izabera> https://imgur.com/gallery/PpkHmPg HAHAHA
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14:29:12 <b_jonas> fungot, is amethist a flower or a gemstone?
14:29:12 <fungot> b_jonas: improper lists are fnord to use that xslt and such?
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14:29:24 <b_jonas> fungot: in how many forms of communication are you fluent?
14:29:24 <fungot> b_jonas: or the love of...
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15:18:56 <FireFly> it even follows the melody
15:19:11 <mroman> is id f = reverse . reverse $ f an identity morphism?
15:22:11 <int-e> > let xs = 1:undefined in (head xs, head . reverse . reverse $ xs)
15:23:02 <mroman> identity morphisms are unique
15:23:57 <b_jonas> mroman: no way. the reverse of an infinite list is bottom
15:24:35 <b_jonas> so (reverse . reverse) can't be the same
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15:45:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45913&oldid=45912 * Rottytooth * (+55) /* Examples */ making examples more clear
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19:30:24 <izabera> in italy a mayor wrote road signs in his town, saying "town with an occidental culture, and deep christian tradition. who's not willing to respect our local culture and tradition is asked to leave"
19:33:53 <izabera> http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/no-islam-signs-raised-italian-village-pontoglio-urging-muslims-adapt-leave-1533828 <- for real
19:34:46 <izabera> oh occidental isn't the right word, western is more appropriate
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22:55:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45914&oldid=45892 * Luis Mendo * (+6) /* Language specification and compiler */
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23:21:43 <HackEgo> this sentence/This sentence was not invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.
23:23:35 <HackEgo> sweden/Sweden is the suburb capital of Norway. It's where all the Nobel prizes are announced, except the Math Prize.
23:23:54 <HackEgo> Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced.
23:25:59 <FireFly> Did you know that märket not only contains a country border, but also a county border on the Swedish side?
23:26:23 <olsner> oh, I thought it was just market with ümläüts
23:26:45 <olsner> well, when boily said it, not when you said it
23:28:16 <boily> FirelloFly, hellolsner.
23:28:47 <boily> the county border is a little bit preposterous.
23:37:55 <olsner> if the island was inhabited, they could've been competing for county tax
23:38:13 <boily> what's a county tax?
23:38:26 <FireFly> a tax that applies to residents within a county
23:39:07 <olsner> almost all the tax is county tax actually, until you make a "lot" of money and qualify for state tax
23:39:37 <shachaf> boily: It's a tax that involves counting.
23:40:28 * boily thwacks shachaf "one, ha ha ha"; thwack "two, ha ha ha"
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00:01:03 <\oren\> hint- read phonetically
00:02:34 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:06:10 <oerjan> \oren\: it worked better once i convinced google translate it wasn't chinese
00:07:51 <oerjan> as for boily's, no clue.
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00:12:10 <HackEgo> mad: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:12:50 -!- oerjan has set topic: The international hub for esoteric pun design and deployment. | Effi's finest fluffy waffles | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
00:13:08 <oerjan> better keep the topic on topic
00:13:55 <mad> what kind of language would you end up with if you did something like C++, but with absolutely no aliasing or side effects
00:14:13 <oerjan> `learn Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them.
00:14:17 <HackEgo> Learned 'pun': Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them.
00:15:07 * oerjan defers to the people who actually know C++
00:15:42 <oerjan> `learn Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them.
00:15:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'pun': Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them.
00:16:08 <HackEgo> 0000000: 5075 6e73 2061 7265 2066 756e 2e20 4173 Puns are fun. As \ 0000010: 6b20 7368 6163 680f 6166 2061 626f 7574 k shach.af about \ 0000020: 2074 6865 6d2e 0a them..
00:16:17 <oerjan> i was just applying some anti-ping
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00:16:51 <oerjan> i tried to use the version that doesn't f* up your terminal
00:17:31 <boily> ah. I thought everyone here is mad. only mad is mad, and I'm a sane man.
00:17:32 <oerjan> i removed the mad entry. it was getting depressingly accurate.
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00:17:44 <oerjan> except for boily, of course.
00:18:19 <boily> mad: unaliased, no side effects C++ sounds like Rust.
00:18:43 <mad> does rust have references
00:18:45 <oerjan> but do you count mutation as side effects? *MWAHAHAHA*
00:19:31 <oerjan> i don't know much about rust but the one thing i know is it has weird kinds of references
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00:20:17 <mad> like, some people have "no side effects" for high-level execution kinds of goals
00:20:20 <boily> oerjan: mutation is a side effect only if it effects my sides hth
00:20:33 <mad> like using late evaluation functional programming
00:20:34 <boily> btw, where's kmc when you need him?
00:20:45 <mad> this is not what I'm talking about
00:21:01 <mad> I'm talking about "no side effects" for _performance_ reasons
00:21:28 <mad> so that you can make everything SIMD because pointer aliasing cannot happen at all ever
00:21:36 <mad> or do on-the-fly multithreading
00:21:45 <oerjan> boily: i haven't seen kmc here for years...
00:21:57 <HackEgo> Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
00:22:03 <oerjan> he got too mad, then left
00:22:21 <FireFly> On that note, where did Bike go?
00:22:36 <mad> basically it means references can only ever exist on the stack
00:22:56 <mad> everything else requires either a deep copy, or something like copy-on-write
00:23:00 <boily> FireFly: a recurrent mystery, with disquieting hints as to his whereabouts :(
00:23:17 <oerjan> aka Bike still shows up with /whois
00:24:14 <FireFly> Maybe leaving this channel is a prerequisite to doing something productive
00:24:46 <shachaf> FireFly: that would explain my life tdnh
00:25:10 <oerjan> > const "what is this functional programming you're talking about" (1 `div` 0)
00:25:12 <lambdabot> "what is this functional programming you're talking about"
00:25:58 <mad> I've been on a marathon of std:: / STL containers recently
00:26:09 <mad> because of implementing text to phoneme
00:28:05 <mad> open source C coders with an aversion to C++ would twitch if they saw my code
00:28:26 <oerjan> as for "on-the-fly multithreading", even the haskell people cannot really make that work - even with a language with no mutation, it is still too hard for a computer to guess when splitting up work in parallel is worth it.
00:28:37 <oerjan> so you always need programmer hints.
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00:29:40 <mad> something tells me haskell isn't too suitable for this, too
00:29:42 <oerjan> it can always do so _safely_, but not _efficiently_.
00:29:49 <mad> though I wouldn't really know
00:30:17 <mad> on the fly being split into threads
00:30:23 <oerjan> haskell is Always Suitable (TM)
00:30:38 <oerjan> haskell is very good at splitting into threads when you hint properly.
00:31:26 <hppavilion[1]> What is a program that is written in multiple languages called?
00:31:50 <hppavilion[1]> A program that itself is written with different files in different languages that somehow communicated
00:32:12 * oerjan thinks "chimera" but that just popped into his head
00:32:38 <FireFly> I think it's called "a hedgewars"
00:33:06 <FireFly> Last I checked Hedgewars was written in five or six languages
00:33:07 <hppavilion[1]> Like, if I have a browser in Node and a parser for a new browser-based language in Python, and the Node browser writes the script-to-be-parsed into a file then calls the parser which parses and then serializes its output to JSON, which /it/ then writes to a file
00:33:20 <hppavilion[1]> And then the JS script loads up the JSON and executes it
00:33:29 <FireFly> At least C++, Haskell, Lua, Pascal
00:33:54 <hppavilion[1]> And this is something I'm actively doing. Like, what I just described. A new language for browsers (one that'll never really be used) that gets parsed in python.
00:34:34 <hppavilion[1]> Though I might use an internal server (with Thoonk, perhaps) instead of a file
00:35:29 <hppavilion[1]> Alternatively, I might just transcribe the Node into python. That could work too.
00:36:11 <mad> what's the slowest possible language
00:36:43 <zgrep> Programming purely using rocks.
00:36:52 <hppavilion[1]> mad: NotAScript: Accepts the empty file exclusively. Does not ever terminate, or do anything at all
00:37:07 <zgrep> Or perhaps programming using turtles.
00:37:17 <mad> well, slowest that actually runs and eventually must terminate
00:38:05 <oerjan> ais523 is trying to make a fast implementation of minsky machines. moral: languages aren't slow, implementations are.
00:38:25 <hppavilion[1]> Well you could always define a language as taking one second longer between lines than the slowest language, ad infinitum
00:38:27 <mad> must terminate for programs that terminate
00:38:31 <mad> so slowest TC
00:38:32 <shachaf> oerjan: is it taking him a long time to make it?
00:38:54 <shachaf> oerjan: because that sounds like a slow implementation indeed
00:38:54 * oerjan gently bruises shachaf with the swatter -----###
00:40:09 <FireFly> You could make it take arbitrarily long to execute any program that terminates
00:40:17 <oerjan> i suppose one of the esolangs where instructions only work at specific times would be intrinsically slow.
00:40:20 <hppavilion[1]> Averaging the speed, you either get "it takes nearly 0 time for any given program" or "it takes forever to execute any file", depending on how you "average" with infinities
00:40:38 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Sort of like latitude or whatever it's called?
00:40:45 * oerjan doesn't remember any names, or indeed if there is more than one
00:40:53 <mad> oerjan : hm
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00:41:17 <FireFly> What if you specify the output of any program to be prefixed by the first N digits of some expensive-to-compute irrational number?
00:41:36 <hppavilion[1]> mad: Then again, one can argue that "takes 10000 years between lines" is still fast, since that's an implementation thing
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00:42:39 <hppavilion[1]> So speed of a programming language isn't really dependent on time to execute on a computer (indeed, a supercomputer does it faster than a desktop), it's more based on steps-to-complete
00:43:07 <mad> I was thinking of this: all variables have a random value at start, and the only operation is to do comparatives on those random values and restart if they don't match
00:43:16 <FireFly> Well, it wasn't specified whether we were talking about asymptotic or concrete time
00:43:19 <mad> basically every sort would be a bogosort
00:43:34 <mad> and every algorithm would be O(N!)
00:43:46 <FireFly> Bogosort is just factorial though
00:43:53 <FireFly> There are artificial sort algorithms that are a lot slower
00:44:05 <hppavilion[1]> Until we can remember that we can define "x" as a nop that takes one step and require that there be an arbitary number of "x"s between each instruction to even be syntactically valid
00:52:21 <mad> oh man, there's a bogobogosort
00:52:30 <hppavilion[1]> Assuming unbounded integers, allows any nopscript-family language to be evaluated.
00:52:41 <hppavilion[1]> And raises an AssertionError if you fail to Nop it properly
00:54:43 <hppavilion[1]> Destroys the universe if the list isn't sorted on the first try. Only universes that survive (and thus can be observed) continue
00:57:03 <hppavilion[1]> Google uses quantum sort to create search results.
00:57:07 <oerjan> note: not predicted to work on actual quantum computers
00:58:09 <hppavilion[1]> Sure, they effectively commit omnicide so they can get you your porn quickly; but hey, that's google for you.
00:59:14 <boily> I prefer slow porn, withouth nudity, only two persons (I'm open to guy/guy, gal/gal, guy/gal and gal/guy), silent, lots of thinking, no contact, and a chess board between them.
01:16:22 <oerjan> boily: i was going to quibble, but https://www.reddit.com/r/chessporn
01:17:19 <boily> oooooooooh... you're making me blush!
01:18:43 <oerjan> you might want to visit before deciding to blush hth
01:19:37 <oerjan> (like most *porn subreddits, it's SFW)
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01:21:38 <boily> I visited, and I'm already subscribed to other SFW porn subs.
01:21:53 <boily> (mainly /r/mapporn. great content!)
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01:46:27 <HackEgo> [U+211E PRESCRIPTION TAKE]
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01:59:56 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_prescription hth
02:00:29 <\oren\> I have that character!
02:01:01 <oerjan> "Literally, the Latin word recipe means simply "Take...." and medieval prescriptions invariably began with the command to "take" certain materials and compound them in specified ways."
02:01:09 <boily> Characterous \oren\ the Fontmaker.
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02:04:43 <boily> \oren\: could you adjust the strokewidth on 灯 please?
02:05:18 <boily> also, I believe the short diagonal stroke on 斥 should be lower, and extend both ways across the vertical stroke.
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02:58:43 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x2180 0x2188
02:59:25 <\oren\> stupid terminal doesn't support recent unicode
03:01:26 <\oren\> oh, wait maybe my font hasn't reloaded
03:02:18 <FreeFull> A lot of characters that really should take up two cells only take up one
03:03:02 <mad> that's what you get when you put together kanji and latin in one character set
03:03:29 <mad> they ain't made to fit
03:04:41 <FireFly> kanji usually take up two cells in my experience
03:05:50 <FreeFull> I mean for example ↀ takes up one cell, but is as wide as two
03:05:57 <FreeFull> So it ends up overlapping with the next character
03:06:18 <FreeFull> Same thing happens with all the emoji characters
03:06:18 <mad> displaying unicode on a terminal seems like asking for trouble if you ask me
03:06:36 <mad> that kind of display was never meant for this
03:06:58 <FreeFull> がんばって！ doesn't show the problem, all the characters take two cells as expected
03:07:36 <mad> like, terminal is more or less an emulation of text mode
03:08:14 <mad> which by hardware has always been limited to 256 characters (512 with a special mode that interferes with colors)
03:08:41 <mad> and 8 or 9 pixels wide
03:09:14 <mad> stuff like combinating accents make no sense on a terminal
03:09:52 <\oren\> I fixed it by deleting the font from my system and then reintalling it
03:09:56 <FreeFull> In the east quite a lot of hardware used 16-bit encodings for the terminals
03:10:33 <mad> the hw I'm aware of is the pc-98 and that basically uses 1bpp 640x400 rather than text mode
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03:11:10 <mad> dunno for other stuff like fm towns or x68000
03:11:48 <\oren\> http://postimg.org/image/mlhnbarpz/
03:12:46 <FireFly> I guess it depends on whether you treat terminal as "actually emulating an old-school terminal" (like, in the usual sennse of an emulator) or take a more lax perspective where the terminal is just a tool that provides a text-based interface of sorts
03:12:48 <\oren\> the characters that weren't displaying properly were obscure roman numerals
03:12:51 <FreeFull> \oren\: Ah, maybe my problem is then that the characters are coming from a non-monospace font
03:13:55 <mad> firefly : you'd have to basically decide for each unicode character if it's combinating, 1-space or 2-space
03:14:23 <mad> and then your color attributes don't line up anymore and your text line doesn't have 80 chars anymore
03:14:36 <FireFly> mad: good thing Unicode already specifies which characters are combining
03:14:56 <FireFly> 1-space and 2-space isn't strictly specified, but people have tried to work that out regardless
03:14:59 <mad> basically each line becomes a std::string rather than a char[80]
03:15:02 <FireFly> (well, in some cases it's psecified)
03:15:10 <mad> there is no limit to how long a line can be
03:15:11 <FireFly> Yes, it's not a buffer of bytes
03:15:32 <FireFly> I wouldn't say a std::string
03:15:44 <mad> there is no limit to the amount of combinating diacritics
03:15:54 <FireFly> there's still discrete cells, just that each cell could contain a sequence of codepoints
03:16:09 <FreeFull> char[80] doesn't make sense anyway, assuming you're using utf8
03:16:10 <mad> utf8 characters can be up to like 6 chars
03:16:38 <FireFly> Calling it "chars" is really just confusing, and C's "char" is just a historical accident
03:16:38 <mad> with a sequence of codepoints per cell then it's
03:17:02 <\oren\> vector<vector<CodePoint>>
03:17:07 <FireFly> I don't see how it would affect SGR attributes
03:17:11 <mad> you know what I meant by 'char'
03:17:27 <FreeFull> mad: Theoretically six if all of utf8's potential were used, but the encoding for the maximum codepoint is only four bytes
03:17:35 <FireFly> Maybe, but it's really confusing to talk aobut char as byte when you're also talking about unicode characters
03:17:42 <hppavilion[1]> PLY won't match 0x[0-9a-f]+ for some reason. What obvious thing am I missing?
03:17:58 <hppavilion[1]> (I know that that doesn't account for uppercase. That was intentional.)
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03:18:07 <FreeFull> There are still many microprocessors and such where a C char is 16 bytes
03:18:14 <mad> true I guess
03:18:26 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: 16-byte characters. I'd like to use that charset.
03:18:27 <mad> FreeFull : word addessed DSP's?
03:18:32 <\oren\> if it's an ordinary regex then maybe you should do 0x[0-9a-f]\+
03:18:52 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I want the + though, don't I? It's to match hexadecimal integers
03:19:15 <\oren\> in basic regexes \+ does what + does in extended regexes and vice versa
03:19:34 <mad> you get {std::vector<unsigned char>, foreground_color, background_color}[80]
03:20:01 <zzo38> I agree to don't use Unicode with the terminal
03:20:47 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: No, I want it to match either 0-9a-f OR 0-9A-F, but not 0-9a-fA-F because mixing caps and noncaps in hex constants is stupid
03:21:04 <mad> I guess you can reasonably expect that if you're over 8 bytes for a cell, you're really messing it up on purpose
03:21:29 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: That wasn't the full regex; it starts by trying to match [0-9], THEN [01], THEN [0-3], THEN [0-7], THEN [0-9a-f], THEN [0-9A-F]
03:21:43 <hppavilion[1]> And it was matching on [0-9] then matching xFF as a name
03:21:46 <\oren\> and just fuck people who use combining characters amiright!
03:21:47 <mad> which means you could have each cell be a struct{unsigned char utf[8]; int foreground; int background}
03:21:53 <mad> 16 byte aligned
03:23:46 <mad> \oren\ : I'm coding text to phoneme atm for french. é is acceptable. é is not and will simply not work.
03:24:14 <\oren\> anyway I also added some more devanagari: ०१२३४५६७८९
03:24:58 <mad> hence fuck combinating diacritics
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03:26:32 <mad> hell, the engine uses unicode for the frontend but internally is in latin-1 because life is too short to deal with 2 byte character sequences
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03:27:57 <mad> and binary searching a blob of text is already crazy enough even with single-byte chars
03:28:20 <\oren\> I usually use 24-bit chars
03:28:36 <\oren\> (for a given vlaue of "usually")
03:28:58 <mad> is there even a C/C++ container for that
03:29:55 <\oren\> mad: you do this: 0xffffff&*(int*)(s+i) where s is the string (a char*) and i is the index
03:30:38 <\oren\> the index must always be a multiple of 3 obviously
03:30:44 <mad> ok what do you do when it changes size
03:30:57 <\oren\> this only works on little-endian of course
03:31:27 <mad> if things keep going at the current rate it won't be too long before there's only little-endian left anyways
03:31:29 <\oren\> mad: no my point is you translate from utf-8 to utf-24
03:31:46 <\oren\> and then use utf-24 internally
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03:32:19 <zzo38> With UTF-8 you can easily do search text by ordinary byte strings, as long as you do not extend it beyond 36-bits
03:32:20 <mad> but if you use utf-32 then you can use std::vector<int>
03:32:54 <zzo38> My program "utftovlq" does not even support UTF-24 currently
03:33:05 <\oren\> mad: yes, but that's wasteful
03:33:28 <mad> then std::wstring and fuck the user if he wants higher plane characters
03:34:02 <\oren\> I ehould write a c++ container around utf-24
03:34:27 <zzo38> Even with UTF-16 you can use higher planes if it is strictly Unicode text (although 0xFFFE and 0xFFFF can now be used too)
03:34:29 <mad> I guess you could use a std::vector<unsigned char> internally and write a front end that makes it 24 bits yes
03:35:00 <mad> zzo38 : but it throws off character counts
03:35:15 <zzo38> Yes it does do that
03:35:29 <zzo38> Depending on what you are doing it might or might not be the problem
03:35:35 <mad> it is a problem
03:35:56 <mad> because character counts are used to tell where each syllable starts and ends in the text
03:36:09 <mad> and the code that deals with that is already complex enough
03:36:40 <\oren\> hold wtf happened to the music
03:37:06 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/OUAyNCxyM2k?t=3451
03:37:49 <zzo38> UTF-32 seem it would be easiest to work with then, especially if you need to go beyond Unicode. However, with both UTF-8 and UTF-16 the algorithm to count characters is simple anyways, although it does require to iterate each cell to do so anyways.
03:38:33 <mad> the code already has way enough iterations already
03:39:27 <zzo38> Yes, I thought it might be.
03:39:37 <\oren\> well arguably any code that only handles one language should use the native encoding of that language
03:40:08 <mad> or actually windows cp-1252
03:40:13 <zzo38> \oren\: Yes, that would be simpler to do.
03:40:46 <zzo38> (If you need to input/output Unicode data, external programs can be used with pipe to convert; that also allows converting even other non-Unicode encodings for the same language text)
03:40:53 <mad> which is the same thing as latin-1 but with useful chars from 0x80 to 0xa0 instead of more retarded control characters
03:41:10 <mad> pipe? there is no pipe
03:41:14 <mad> this has to run in a dll
03:41:36 <zzo38> Then another function can convert
03:42:22 <interest1ng> Wondering if anyone here has a cat implementation in ><> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fish)
03:42:40 <zzo38> Do you know if vi and/or other text editor you can send the text to another program (by pipe) even without saving it to the file yet?
03:43:22 <mad> cp437 has a certain lack of accented caps
03:44:30 <\oren\> zzo38: ed can, therefore vi can
03:44:53 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a browser-based application called MetaCalc. It's for my "Programmer's Browser Toolkit", a small collection of programs I'm writing for programming
03:45:11 <hppavilion[1]> They're going to come with the SQ browser by default and may be available elsewhere
03:45:45 <\oren\> the command is 1,$w !command
03:46:07 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to decide whether or not to put an immense amount of effort into making 5>x>1 work
03:46:15 <zzo38> This use can be useful for such thing as to test music with AmigaMML even without saving any files, in case someone want to do that
03:47:42 <zzo38> (And possibly with other programs too)
03:50:32 <zzo38> One of the rules of UNIX is to make every program a filter, isn't it?
03:54:29 <mad> how much music have you made with amigamml btw?
03:54:45 <zzo38> A few. I don't make a lot of music.
03:55:55 <zzo38> I am not Bach or whatever.
03:57:36 <zzo38> But at this time what I am working on is PCRE for SQLite.
04:00:42 <mad> only bach is bach
04:14:51 <newsham> 'the rules of unix' sounds a bit strong
04:14:57 <newsham> unix is a way, not a set of rules
04:18:37 <zzo38> I made up even a few more Magic: the Gathering cards.
04:19:34 <zzo38> During declare attackers step you must toss a coin; if heads put a +1/+1 counter on the enchanted creature if tails put a -1/-1 counter
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06:26:07 <izabera> github and github gist are very funny with noscript
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07:52:30 <zzo38> I have now made PCRE_EXEC and PCRE_QUOTE to work.
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08:11:14 <zzo38> I should also need PCRE_REPLACE, and also a virtual table for iterating matches
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12:25:22 <mroman> Does anybody know of a CPU where emulators are sparse?
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15:10:53 <mroman> what's a full circcle?
15:25:31 <Taneb> mroman, 2pi is the angle in radians of a full circle
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15:36:55 <mroman> how the fuck do I get the cursor position in this library
15:37:21 <mroman> I have to keep track of that myself?
15:38:19 <Taneb> What library is this?
15:41:14 <mroman> you can create a screen from the terminal facade
15:41:26 <mroman> but the screen doesn't know that the terminal cursor changed
15:41:31 <mroman> who the fuck designed this shit
15:45:43 <mroman> I should probably use the higher level interface
15:45:53 <mroman> It doesn't update cursor pos after putString
15:56:37 <mroman> I'm neither on any prescription drug
15:56:43 <mroman> although I have access to many of those
15:56:59 <mroman> such as anti-psychotics, benzos, z-drugs
16:00:25 <FireFly> Maybe just high on mathematics
16:03:07 <mroman> maybe I'm getting a somewhat hypomanic episode
16:03:33 <mroman> but I'm still brainfogged from the last weeks
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16:13:36 <fizzie> (I'm lukewarm on the τ proposal.)
16:13:45 <Taneb> fizzie, they are equal by definition
16:14:04 <fizzie> Their values are equal, you mean.
16:14:10 <fizzie> strcmp("1tau", "2pi") != 0.
16:15:16 <Taneb> They are mathematically, if not lexicographically, equal.
16:16:15 <fizzie> Yes, but I don't think the τ proposal is really objecting to the actual value of π, or seeking to redefine it; it's strictly about what you're using to talk about it.
16:17:33 <mroman> "Netflix Creates DIY Smart Socks That Pause Your Show When You Fall Asleep"
16:18:28 <mroman> How one can fall asleep while watching something is still a mistery to me anyway
16:18:45 <Taneb> mroman, I find it quite easy
16:19:50 <mroman> I probably wouldnt even fall asleep while watching something if on zopiclone.
16:20:08 <Taneb> I guess we are different people
16:20:33 <mroman> I've never fallen asleep while watching TV.
16:20:44 <mroman> or while listening to music.
16:21:38 <mroman> I have fallen asleep while riding the Bus though.
16:24:09 <Taneb> I've never done that
16:24:25 <Taneb> I've been drowsy on buses and not with it, but never actually asleep
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17:10:15 <mroman> I'm pretty much always drowsy
17:10:26 <mroman> I have memory recall problems
17:11:29 <mroman> I don't really know how exactly that is defined.
17:11:49 <mroman> Do people generally really know what they got last birthday/christmas for presents?
17:13:56 <mroman> Or what they ate yesterday?
17:14:26 <mroman> I find it hard to beleive that people remember what the ate yesterday.
17:14:38 <mroman> seeing as I'm happy if I can recall what I ate today
17:25:39 <mroman> usually remembering that I ate something for lunch is good enough for me.
17:25:49 <mroman> sometimes I can't even remember that.
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17:42:28 <FireFly> I remember what I ate yesterday, and the day before that
17:43:41 <Taneb> Yesterday, I had (in reverse order) a burrito, a pasty, and a bowl of cornflakes.
17:44:04 <Taneb> The day before, I had spare ribs, a pork pie, and (again) a bowl of cornflakes
17:45:20 <HackEgo> olist 1016: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
17:45:48 <FireFly> spare ribs? is this a usual wednesday for you?:p
17:49:05 <Taneb> FireFly, I was at my parents and they were both out all day so we had something easy
17:50:13 <Taneb> I don't see what's especially unwednesdayish about spare ribs
17:54:49 <zzo38> I find tau generally more useful than pi too, for example tau is the period of a trigonometric function. In some software dealing with audio (such as AmigaMML) I usually define TAU at the top of the program and it gets use a lot.
17:55:10 <b_jonas> he'll reach 1024 soon enough next year if he's this fast
17:55:29 <mroman> If you ask me on monday what I did over the weekend there's a 25% chance I have no fucking clue
17:58:21 <mroman> I'm having it checked out
17:58:32 <mroman> Today they drew some blood
17:59:40 <mroman> but other than my blood being chronically too thick I doubt there's something visible in it
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19:06:45 <zzo38> Is there anyone else on here by now that would like my Magic: the Puzzling that I have made up?
19:07:26 <shachaf> Did you post a link to it?
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19:08:41 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.1 up to puzzle.5
19:08:46 <zzo38> (There are five so far)
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19:09:35 <zzo38> (You can see Yawgatog if you need the rule and Oracle changes, although as far as I know this is not actually necessary in these cases right now)
19:10:42 <zzo38> The fifth puzzle is a team game.
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19:12:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:D1ffe7e45e]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45915 * Martin Büttner * (+262) Created page with "It actually seems quite trivial to translate BF to D1ffe7e45e, so I don't think the Computational Class section needs to be so careful in its statement. --~~~~"
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20:50:44 * Melvar gets annoyed that one cannot call a linker script with dlopen().
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20:56:47 <Melvar> Because I need a handle to libc, but libc.so is a linker script. So I used to work around that by asking for libm, which also worked to access libc symbols, but now libm.so has also been made a linker script.
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22:16:03 <FreeFull> Melvar: What about libc.so.6 ?
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22:29:28 <Melvar> FreeFull: The processing is such that if I want a system library it must end with “.so”.
22:30:45 <Melvar> Specifically, “.so” is added to what I give it.
22:31:11 <Melvar> “it” being the program doing the dlopening at my direction.
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22:31:52 <FreeFull> I have a libc-2.22.so but that filename might vary between systems
22:33:34 <Melvar> I should probably add logic to use RTLD_DEFAULT so I can just skip trying to load libc, but then is there a windows equivalent of that?
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22:46:24 <Melvar> FreeFull: Since my code in question is not portable and only used by me, I’ll go with the hardcoded version for now, thanks for pointing it out.
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23:36:54 <myname> another one bites the apple
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00:24:05 <zzo38> What additional kind of features should my PCRE wrapper library have?
00:32:33 <shachaf> How can I answer that without knowing what features it already has?
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00:53:55 <zzo38> Currently I have functions PCRE_COMPILE, PCRE_CONFIG, PCRE_EXEC, PCRE_FIRSTCHAR, PCRE_QUOTE, PCRE_REPLACE, REGEXP. The PCRE_COMPILE function takes the text and options (any options are valid) and returns a blob (or null if the compilation failed).
00:56:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: PCRE wrapper to what language?
00:57:35 <zzo38> I also intend to soon add a virtual table module for returning a list of matches. However, if there is anything else you think I might have missed, you can mention it.
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01:10:51 <\oren\> stupid left eye i blurry
01:20:05 <b_jonas> \oren\: go find a good ophtalmologist, a good optometrist, and a good optician, two of whom might be the same, plus learn to pronounce those words without hesitation.
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01:20:15 <b_jonas> also, welcome to the family
01:24:42 <b_jonas> \oren\: and if you're fluent with those three, you can go on to “sclera” and “conjunctiva”
01:25:02 <b_jonas> and “cornea” too of course.
01:29:25 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: nah, the real fun for me is not actually the eye thingy, but the expensive glasses
01:29:41 <b_jonas> The eye doctor is necessary, but not fun.
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01:33:09 <izabera> i remember an esoteric language that was using the filesystem as the language itself
01:33:14 <izabera> but i can't remember the name
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02:48:17 <\oren\> hmm if Trump wins the election, it could trigger an immigration wave to come to Canada, which could fix our economy.
02:49:13 <\oren\> please Mr. Trump, drive the latte liberals north!
02:49:15 <Elronnd> Even so, it isn't worth it for trump to be elected
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02:49:46 <\oren\> Elronnd: why? doesn't affect us, we've got Trudeau!
02:50:08 * Elronnd doesn't actually live in canada, doesn't know who Trudeau is
02:50:37 <Elronnd> also, don't you have a shred of compassion for the poor people, who will be discriminated against by Trump *and* won't have the cash to move?
02:50:48 <\oren\> Justin Trudeau, the bishonen prime minister of Canada
02:51:56 <\oren\> He's more left than even Bernie Sanders
02:52:23 <\oren\> He might fund the poor of america to come here as refugees
02:54:37 <\oren\> With a bigger workforce our economy might be able to work better, and our currency would not be as much of an oil voucher
02:57:46 <zzo38> If his policy is unconstitutional then it cannot be implemented very easily, isn't it?
02:58:45 <zzo38> Why does the SQLite documentation specify the incorrect type for the xCreate and xConnect method?
03:10:02 <\oren\> Maybe it's supposed to use type punning?
03:10:37 <zzo38> It is a compiler warning if you use the type in the documentation, but if you change "char**argv" to "const char*const*argv" then it works.
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03:17:19 <zzo38> The PCRE_QUOTE function converts all instances of \E into \\EE\Q and then puts \Q at the beginning and \E at the end. Is that OK or is there something wrong with that?
03:20:51 <zzo38> (It seems to work)
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04:48:24 <zzo38> I looked at the file history for sqlite.h.in in SQLite, and now I am glad that they added support for colUsed to virtual tables, which is something I have wanted to have, so this is good. (However, I would have done it so that "SELECT Y FROM T WHERE X=5;" sets the bit for Y but not X, so that if it cannot consume the WHERE clause then it knows it need X as well otherwise it might not necessarily need it depending what it is doing)
04:51:34 <zzo38> Still no LIMIT/OFFSET consuming though!
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10:08:10 <myname> https://youtu.be/lHcTKWiZ8sI what the hell
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12:19:56 <Taneb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI&feature=youtu.be aaaaaaaaah
12:22:19 <Taneb> Wait, that was what was just linked here
12:22:24 <Taneb> I *meant* to link that somewhere else
12:22:31 <Taneb> But still, my response is aaaaaaah
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12:24:44 <Taneb> It creeps me a *lot*
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12:55:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ~Kslkgh * New user account
13:23:57 <Taneb> A true gentleman programmer is one who can write obfuscated code, but doesn't.
13:49:03 <b_jonas> D&D question. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm says about the Marut (construct monster) that “Once it has found its target, a marut brings it the death it has been trying to avoid. Those who defile death through necromancy may instead receive a geas and/or mark of justice to enforce proper respect.”
13:49:55 <b_jonas> What's the point of trying a geas (a mind-affecting spell) on someone who has achieved immortailty by turning themselves to a lich undead who is totally immune to mind-altering spells?
13:50:11 <b_jonas> That doesn't look like an effective strategy.
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14:43:01 <HackEgo> ostrich/Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with Turkey. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
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14:58:30 <boily> aaah, feels good to have an unfreezing firefox again ^^
15:06:49 <lambdabot> CYQB 191400Z 26012KT 30SM FEW030 BKN073 M03/M07 A2965 RMK SC2AC4 SLP046
15:06:57 <boily> already -3. much fun.
15:07:57 <boily> coppro: are you vacationing?
15:09:07 <boily> hm. managed to freeze the fox again, but through reproducible steps: trying to install pentadactyl.
15:09:31 <boily> it doesn't freeze by itself now, which is nice. the bad part is that the bug is known, but the resolution isn't.
15:09:55 <boily> apparently, it has to do with a bad pointer somewhere in glib.
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15:19:25 <coppro> boily: yes. going home to calgary today
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15:34:49 <boily> weird. so it's not me installing, it's firefox trying to open a new tab
15:35:43 <boily> me middle-clicking or ctrl-clicking on a link works. 'firefox some_random_xpi.xpi' through the commandline makes it freeze. clicking on a link that targets a new tab makes it freeze.
15:37:47 <boily> ok, some middle-clicks hang.
15:37:52 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHGHGHGHGHGHGH!
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15:50:44 <lambdabot> ESSB 191520Z 21003KT 9999 BKN022 07/06 Q1007 R30/19//73
15:55:34 <HackEgo> structural subtyping/Not to be confused with substructural typing.
15:55:42 <HackEgo> eto/Eto is the ageless laughing first minister.
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16:05:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: windom: not found
16:05:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: intelligence: not found
16:05:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: charisma: not found
16:05:27 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
16:07:26 <b_jonas> `learn integer/An integer is a number that does not contain a wildcard that matches any character other than a line feed.
16:07:27 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/learn: line 3: wisdom/integer/an: No such file or directory \ Learned 'integer/an': integer/An integer is a number that does not contain a wildcard that matches any character other than a line feed.
16:07:34 <b_jonas> `le/rn integer/An integer is a number that does not contain a wildcard that matches any character other than a line feed.
16:07:56 <b_jonas> fungot, what's an integer?
16:07:57 <fungot> b_jonas: it's a sign from above telling me to stop in at fnord about once a week, i'll send you a ctcp pong when you ping me/
16:10:17 <b_jonas> `learn Treefolk are genericized treants for intellectual property reasons.
16:10:19 <HackEgo> Learned 'treefolk': Treefolk are genericized treants for intellectual property reasons.
16:10:38 <b_jonas> `le/rn treant/Treants are genericized ents for intellectual property reasons
16:16:33 <b_jonas> `le/rn ent/Ents are very useful creatures for the puzzle of writing town names in Hungary as the catenation of six or more Hungarian words. Solutions include Bal-a-s-s-a-gyarmat, Bal-a-ton-s-zár-szó, Bal-a-ton-szem-e-s, Egy-ház-a-s-holló-s, Fel-s-õsz-ent-már-ton, Jász-ár-ok-száll-á-s, Ki-s-kun-fél-egy-ház-a, Ki-s-kun-hal-a-s, Rá-basz-ent-mik-ló-s, Vér-te-s-szõ-lõ-s.
16:16:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?ent: not found
16:16:42 <HackEgo> Ents are very useful creatures for the puzzle of writing town names in Hungary as the catenation of six or more Hungarian words. Solutions include Bal-a-s-s-a-gyarmat, Bal-a-ton-s-zár-szó, Bal-a-ton-szem-e-s, Egy-ház-a-s-holló-s, Fel-s-õsz-ent-már-ton, Jász-ár-ok-száll-á-s, Ki-s-kun-fél-egy-ház-a, Ki-s-kun-hal-a-s, Rá-basz-ent-mik-ló-
16:18:20 <b_jonas> `le/rn ent/Ents are very useful creatures for the puzzle of writing town names in Hungary as the catenation of six or more Hungarian words. Bal-a-s-s-a-gyarmat Bal-a-ton-s-zár-szó Egy-ház-a-s-holló-s Fel-s-ősz-ent-már-ton Jász-ár-ok-száll-á-s Ki-s-kun-fél-egy-ház-a Ki-s-kun-hal-a-s Rá-basz-ent-mik-ló-s Vér-te-s-sző-lő-s.
16:18:27 <HackEgo> Ents are very useful creatures for the puzzle of writing town names in Hungary as the catenation of six or more Hungarian words. Bal-a-s-s-a-gyarmat Bal-a-ton-s-zár-szó Egy-ház-a-s-holló-s Fel-s-ősz-ent-már-ton Jász-ár-ok-száll-á-s Ki-s-kun-fél-egy-ház-a Ki-s-kun-hal-a-s Rá-basz-ent-mik-ló-s Vér-te-s-sző-lő-s.
16:19:43 <b_jonas> `le/rn ent/Ents are very useful creatures for the puzzle of writing town names in Hungary as the catenation of six or more Hungarian words. Bal-a-s-s-a-gyarmat Bal-a-ton-{s-zár-szó,szem-e-s} Egy-ház-a-s-holló-s Fel-s-ősz-ent-már-ton Jász-ár-ok-száll-á-s Ki-s-kun-{fél-egy-ház-a,hal-a-s} Rá-basz-ent-mik-ló-s Vér-te-s-sző-lő-s.
16:19:50 <HackEgo> Ents are very useful creatures for the puzzle of writing town names in Hungary as the catenation of six or more Hungarian words. Bal-a-s-s-a-gyarmat Bal-a-ton-{s-zár-szó,szem-e-s} Egy-ház-a-s-holló-s Fel-s-ősz-ent-már-ton Jász-ár-ok-száll-á-s Ki-s-kun-{fél-egy-ház-a,hal-a-s} Rá-basz-ent-mik-ló-s Vér-te-s-sző-lő-s.
16:21:02 <myname> s is an hungarian word?
16:21:07 <b_jonas> `le/rn ent/Ents are very useful creatures for the puzzle of writing town names in Hungary as the catenation of six or more Hungarian words. Bal-a-s-s-a-gyarmat Bal-a-ton-{s-zár-szó,{rend,szem}-e-s} Egy-ház-a-s-holló-s Fel-s-ősz-ent-már-ton Jász-ár-ok-száll-á-s Ki-s-kun-{fél-egy-ház-a,hal-a-s} Rá-basz-ent-mik-ló-s Vér-te-s-sző-lő-s.
16:21:13 <HackEgo> Ents are very useful creatures for the puzzle of writing town names in Hungary as the catenation of six or more Hungarian words. Bal-a-s-s-a-gyarmat Bal-a-ton-{s-zár-szó,{rend,szem}-e-s} Egy-ház-a-s-holló-s Fel-s-ősz-ent-már-ton Jász-ár-ok-száll-á-s Ki-s-kun-{fél-egy-ház-a,hal-a-s} Rá-basz-ent-mik-ló-s Vér-te-s-sző-lő-s.
16:22:53 <b_jonas> myname: there is at least one solution that don't need it, specifically, Kis-kun-fél-egy-ház-a
16:24:00 <b_jonas> myname: but most solutions use it, because without it you need town names with at least six syllables, and there aren't many of those.
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16:25:08 <b_jonas> myname: puzzle is from http://www.komal.hu/forum/forum.cgi?a=to&tid=66&st=25&sp=343#16804
16:26:35 <b_jonas> There's at least one town name with seven syllables, Balatonmáriafürdő, but it doesn't seem to work because “mári” or “fürd” etc aren't words
16:32:10 <b_jonas> Similarly, Alsónemesapáti is seven syllables but doesn't seem to decompose because “i” isn't a word. So the solutions are six syllable ones and mostly use -s-, with the exception of Kis-kun-fél-egy-ház-a.
16:32:40 <boily> \oren\: had I already he\\oren\ed this mroning?
16:32:59 <b_jonas> The fun part is that I didn't even invent this puzzle, it was someone else. I only gave extra solutions.
16:33:00 <boily> b_jhellonas. Hungarian is strange hth
16:33:32 <b_jonas> Rábaszentmiklós is the craziest of course.
16:34:08 <boily> Rabât-Sainte-Micloche.
16:34:32 <\oren\> boily: I think it's because Hungarian isn't indo european
16:34:58 <\oren\> and yet is written in roman letters
16:36:30 <\oren\> thus, theoretically it should look more alien than Sanscrit or Persian
16:36:40 <b_jonas> There are tons of town names that sound dirty, but as this puzzle was clearly posed someone else, it let me point this out on a forum that wouldn't generally like if I used dirty words.
16:37:15 <boily> re https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2013.09.09_Balaton_%283%29.JPG
16:37:23 <b_jonas> \oren\: no, it shouldn't "look more like". the not indo european implies only deep grammar rules stuff, not what the language looks like.
16:38:13 <\oren\> but it also implies that none of the roots would be even slightly recognizable
16:38:55 <b_jonas> \oren\: no, not really, because of centuries of vocabulary gain from turkish, slavic, german, greek and latin, french, english, in roughly this order
16:39:32 <\oren\> oh. well then. So roughly like Japanese for a Chinese person. Ok then
16:39:38 <b_jonas> (slavic should probably be in the chronology twice, once early and once late during the iron curtain; and greek and latin is spread around all the time)
16:41:19 <boily> Latin is the Marmite of linguistic toast.
16:43:16 <b_jonas> David Madore has actually recently posted a blog entry http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-12-17.2343.html that tries to give one of these interesting examples about what sort of thing a language family can share.
16:43:40 <b_jonas> Obviously there are books on this sort of thing, but David writes in an interesting and captivating way to geeks.
16:45:50 <b_jonas> Latin letters are borrowed to Hungarian and English for the same reason and same time as latin words were first borrowed: because at the time people started to write Hungarian, the people who would write it had to learn written latin.
16:46:27 <b_jonas> This might be similar to why kanji are used to write Japanese and why Japanese has so many Chinese borrowings.
16:48:27 <\oren\> yah. in fact Hiragana and Katakana are just lazily-written versions of chinese characters that sound like that (manyougana).
16:48:46 <b_jonas> The german borrowings are of a quite differnt nature: german words were borrowed because at that time german speaking population was widely mixed with Hungarian speaking population. Budapest (before it was called that) had a German speaking majority at a time.
16:49:01 <b_jonas> So that one included uneducated population, unlike the latin borrowings.
16:50:45 <b_jonas> As a result, these days people invent new latin-sounding stuff when they want to sound like they're smart scientists, they invent English-sounding words when they want to sell non-sciency stuff like pop music or video games, and they don't invent new German-sounding words,
16:52:22 <b_jonas> but some families still use words of german origin for food that have non-German equivalents used in different families, eg. “fasírt” vs “vagdalt” or “spenót” vs “paraj”.
16:53:03 <zzo38> If you want to write musical notation then use (or invent) Italian words.
16:53:06 <b_jonas> Also “nokedli” vs “galuska”.
16:53:08 <\oren\> i see. It's interesting how the distribution of loanwords has more to do with the people than the words themselves
16:55:53 <b_jonas> \oren\: that's for just a few special words. Most loanwords aren't like that. Other food like “kuglóf” doesn't have a less german sounding equivalent.
16:58:18 <b_jonas> (There was technically a second wave of German language knowledge during the iron curtain, when people weren't much exposed to English music or books, and tons of people worked in the service industry interacting with East German tourists, but this didn't result in many loanwords.)
17:00:14 <b_jonas> (This was partly at the same time when everyone had to learn Russian, and when sciency people read mathematics books translated from English to Russian or German.)
17:00:43 <b_jonas> (Mostly to russian. The German math books are older and were not translated form English.)
17:14:02 <tswett> I want to hear some of these faux English words.
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17:15:15 <HackEgo> [U+2186 ROMAN NUMERAL FIFTY EARLY FORM]
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17:17:54 <tswett> http://filebin.ca/2QRrR9ZHgo0m/esoteric.txt
17:19:40 <tswett> A whole bunch of wisdom from the neural net.
17:19:42 <tswett> 14:54:02: <Jafet> > 10, 168
17:19:42 <tswett> 14:38:43: <lambdabot> Feel false
17:19:54 <\oren\> tswett: coincidentally I added that character a few days ago
17:19:57 <zzo38> The timestamps are not even in the correct order
17:20:33 <tswett> \oren\: so the fact that you asked HackEgo about the character recently is a coincidence?
17:20:47 <tswett> zzo38: yeah, it's pretty bad at keeping track of time.
17:20:56 <lifthrasiir> https://github.com/lifthrasiir/rust-encoding/issues/92#issuecomment-166004719
17:21:03 <tswett> 14:45:36: <gamemanj> ...http://www.cogbilagobous.com/images/iPing/Tanebmodule/market/generators/representationNenses/warnings/grub-j33/Admin-definition-time
17:21:24 <tswett> Lots of websites have Tanebmodules nowadays.
17:21:59 <tswett> 04:16:59: <shachaf> `wisdom
17:21:59 <tswett> 04:01:19: <HackEgo> Google your half-Word Haskell is Problem.
17:22:13 <tswett> `learn Google your half-Word Haskell is Problem.
17:22:15 <HackEgo> Learned 'google': Google your half-Word Haskell is Problem.
17:23:12 <boily> tswellott. Tanebmodule?
17:23:57 <tswett> 04:25:04: <elliott> "hth" is what I think
17:24:01 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. care to explain twh?
17:24:15 <b_jonas> `le/rn halfling/Halflings are genericized hobbits for intellectual property reasons.
17:24:19 <boily> @tell elliott stop snarking hth
17:25:03 <b_jonas> `le/rn kithkin/Kithkins are genericized halflings for intellectual property reasons, except they also have some limited telepathy to remote sense each others' emotions.
17:25:33 <tswett> Here's an error message from lambdabot:
17:25:35 <tswett> 04:36:30: <lambdabot> Recent definition of ‘a’
17:25:35 <tswett> 04:46:28: <lambdabot> with actual type ‘GHC.Types.Char]’
17:25:35 <tswett> 04:18:42: <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘S...
17:25:47 <int-e> . o O ( humans are genericized humans without intellect, property nor reason?
17:25:58 <zzo38> DWARF is a debugging data format
17:26:22 <tswett> HackEgo refusing to provide any wisdom:
17:26:24 <tswett> 04:36:10: <shachaf> `wisdom
17:26:24 <tswett> 04:57:58: <HackEgo> aw/no
17:27:06 <boily> . o O ( int-ello! )
17:27:13 <tswett> 04:36:58: <oren> x, F[basic> Taneb = B) and (|) where a f = (* -> (a -> a) -> a (b of the only the exception that goto with 3 bits)
17:27:20 <b_jonas> `perl -e warn $n=()=<wisdom/*>," wise men"
17:27:22 <HackEgo> 702 wise men at -e line 1.
17:27:43 <b_jonas> `le/rn 0/702 matching entries found.
17:29:16 <int-e> `le/rn footnote 1/May contain nuts.
17:29:42 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/footnote 1
17:30:04 <zzo38> Do the footnotes have footnotes?
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17:30:26 <b_jonas> `le/rn skeleton/A skeleton is an unintelligent undead, similar to the zombie but harder to create, because it's lacking most of the body.
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17:30:43 <b_jonas> `le/rn ghost/A ghost is an unintelligent undead, similar to the skeleton but harder to create, because it's lacking the rest of the body.
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17:31:33 <b_jonas> `le/rn A ghast is a palette-swapped higher level copycat of ghoul.
17:32:00 <boily> a ghast cries fireballs hth
17:32:02 <int-e> no append version, hmm
17:32:03 <zzo38> You can't use le/rn like that, I think
17:32:14 <b_jonas> `le/rn Ghouls are undead that eat BRAINS. So basically, bog standard undead like zombies or wights, but with some fancy back story in the book that nobody reads.
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17:32:40 <zzo38> You need to put the filename in front explicitly
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17:33:04 <b_jonas> `learn Ghouls are undead that eat BRAINS. So basically, bog standard undead like zombies or wights, but with some fancy back story in the book that nobody reads.
17:33:06 <HackEgo> Learned 'ghoul': Ghouls are undead that eat BRAINS. So basically, bog standard undead like zombies or wights, but with some fancy back story in the book that nobody reads.
17:33:20 <b_jonas> `learn A ghast is a palette-swapped higher level copycat of ghoul.
17:33:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'ghast': A ghast is a palette-swapped higher level copycat of ghoul.
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17:33:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: thanks for the warning
17:33:48 <boily> Elronnd: Hellonnd. first time I see you type something.
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17:34:13 <int-e> `learn_append skeleton The best skeleton are made by groups of people, so-called skeleton crews.
17:34:14 <HackEgo> Maths stands for Mathematical Anti-Telharsic Harfatum Septomin.
17:34:15 <HackEgo> Learned 'skeleton': A skeleton is an unintelligent undead, similar to the zombie but harder to create, because it's lacking most of the body. The best skeleton are made by groups of people, so-called skeleton crews.
17:34:44 <Elronnd> boily: yeah, it was a typo
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17:35:15 <int-e> `` sed -i s/ton\ are/tons\ are/ wisdome/skeleton; cat wisdom/skeleton
17:35:16 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdome/skeleton: No such file or directory \ A skeleton is an unintelligent undead, similar to the zombie but harder to create, because it's lacking most of the body. The best skeleton are made by groups of people, so-called skeleton crews.
17:35:27 <Elronnd> 'learn b_jonas Esoterically
17:35:34 <Elronnd> `learn b_jonas Esoterically
17:35:36 <HackEgo> Learned 'b_jona': b_jonas Esoterically
17:35:38 <int-e> `` sed -i s/ton\ are/tons\ are/ wisdom/skeleton; cat wisdom/skeleton
17:35:40 <HackEgo> A skeleton is an unintelligent undead, similar to the zombie but harder to create, because it's lacking most of the body. The best skeletons are made by groups of people, so-called skeleton crews.
17:36:02 <boily> b_jonas: wait wait wait. you didn't have a wisdom entry of your own?
17:36:11 <HackEgo> The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom.
17:36:29 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan hppavilion[1]
17:36:29 <b_jonas> `le/rn math/Math class is tough!
17:36:32 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
17:36:38 <Elronnd> `learn Elronnd *Definitely* esoteric
17:36:40 <HackEgo> Learned 'elronnd': Elronnd *Definitely* esoteric
17:36:49 <Elronnd> `learn Elronnd *definitely* esoteric
17:36:52 <HackEgo> Learned 'elronnd': Elronnd *definitely* esoteric
17:37:01 <shachaf> third time's the charm hth
17:37:18 <lambdabot> LOWI 191720Z VRB02KT CAVOK 03/02 Q1026 NOSIG
17:37:22 <int-e> bad day for laundry...
17:38:08 <HackEgo> IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays.
17:38:36 <b_jonas> `le/rn xkcq/"xkcq" is worth 8 more points than "xkcd" in Scrabble, or a whopping 30 more if both are played optimally on a triple word score. Nyahhh.
17:39:05 <coppro> how did you end up here?
17:39:20 <coppro> new hypothesis: #esoteric is actually Rome
17:39:46 <b_jonas> coppro: no way. how is it full of people from Norway and the UK then?
17:39:49 <HackEgo> 702 matching entries found.
17:39:50 <Elronnd> coppro: Google mimiced my brain and sent me somewhere random
17:39:55 <Elronnd> and that somewhere was brainfuck
17:39:57 <zzo38> Did you add the one for Magic: the Puzzling?
17:40:02 <Elronnd> I ended up on the esolangs wiki
17:40:22 <Elronnd> and eventually a level teleporter there landed me in this channel
17:40:32 <coppro> b_jonas: because all roads lead here
17:41:00 <HackEgo> magic: the puzzling? ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:41:12 <zzo38> There are level teleporters in there?
17:41:13 <boily> b_jonas: Rome is the suburb capital of Denmark. it's where the Nobel Prize announcement are announced.
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17:41:57 <\oren\> I'm from Canada, and more distantly, from Russia, England, France, and Ireland.
17:42:01 <boily> Elronnd: what are your approximate geographic coördinates? what do you think of roast beef?
17:42:20 <b_jonas> boily: by the Roman emperor Harald V?
17:42:28 <\oren\> My mother's family are from Russia
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17:45:11 <boily> \oren\: if you go back about 12 generations away, both sides of my family are French.
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17:45:38 <b_jonas> if you go back about 12 generations away, my family is from like spread everywhere around the globe
17:46:37 <\oren\> 12 generations i think would put some of my mom's ancestors dirt poor farmers in rural russia under a Tzar
17:47:52 <\oren\> and my father's as dirt poor farmers in france who stupidly thought they could do better in quebec
17:49:18 <\oren\> also in Ireland and England, moving to Ontario
17:49:46 <\oren\> Like did these people not realize the growing season is half as long in Canada!?!?!
17:50:09 <boily> . o O ( "The jackal explodes!" )
17:51:07 <boily> it's not the length that's important, is the vegetables you grow.
17:51:36 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯/¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:52:43 <b_jonas> \oren\: yeah, but since it's half as long for every farmer, they can sell the food for more money there, and they have to work less for that if the season is shorter.
17:53:19 <\oren\> goddamn macro-economics!
17:54:42 <int-e> oh well, economics is studying people who try to act rationally ... bound to be a mess
17:55:04 <int-e> (not to mention the circularity of the whole business)
17:55:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QKAS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45916&oldid=43976 * 96.59.217.220 * (-18)
17:57:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QKAS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45917&oldid=45916 * 96.59.217.220 * (+7)
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17:59:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QKAS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45918&oldid=45917 * 96.59.217.220 * (+13)
18:00:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QKAS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45919&oldid=45918 * 96.59.217.220 * (+34)
18:01:42 <HackEgo> Arrows are just strong monads in the category of profunctors.
18:01:55 <int-e> I'm *sure* that HackEgo replies to private messages
18:02:05 <zzo38> Yes I think you are correct
18:02:18 <zzo38> (I have done it before)
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18:02:59 <b_jonas> But this channel is more tolerant to this kind of smapping than most channels are (though maybe I should try multiple searches in a single line) and maybe it inspires people to write entries
18:03:12 <b_jonas> `? arrow|dagger|knife|sword|saber|sabre
18:03:13 <HackEgo> arrow|dagger|knife|sword|saber|sabre? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:03:34 <b_jonas> `ls wisdom/@(arrow|dagger|knife|sword|saber|sabre)
18:03:35 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/@(arrow|dagger|knife|sword|saber|sabre): No such file or directory
18:03:43 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, it does show what entry are missing to public too even. But I think you cannot make multiple searches per line like that; you need to add a program to do that instead
18:03:46 <b_jonas> `` shopt -s extglob; ls wisdom/@(arrow|dagger|knife|sword|saber|sabre)
18:03:47 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `shopt -s extglob; ls wisdom/@(arrow|dagger|knife|sword|saber|sabre)'
18:03:59 <b_jonas> `` shopt -s extglob; eval 'ls wisdom/@(arrow|dagger|knife|sword|saber|sabre)'
18:04:06 <b_jonas> this is one of those stupid cases where you need eval
18:04:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: blame: not found
18:04:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: blame: not found
18:04:31 <HackEgo> A card game where you win if you collect *all* of the tropes.
18:04:34 <HackEgo> tswett tswett b_jonas zzo38
18:04:45 <HackEgo> cat: bin/\`\`: No such file or directory
18:04:55 <HackEgo> export LANG=C; exec bash -c "$@"
18:05:02 <HackEgo> cat: bin\`: No such file or directory
18:05:10 <HackEgo> TIMEFORMAT='real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS' exec bash -c -- "$1"
18:06:48 <b_jonas> `` cat '#!bin/sh'$'\n''export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@"' > bin/\`\`
18:06:50 <HackEgo> cat: #!bin/sh \ export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@": No such file or directory
18:06:55 <b_jonas> `` echo '#!bin/sh'$'\n''export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@"' > bin/\`\`
18:07:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: /hackenv/bin/``: bin/sh: bad interpreter: No such file or directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/``: Success
18:07:14 <b_jonas> `` echo '#!/bin/sh'$'\n''export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@"' > bin/\`\`
18:07:18 <b_jonas> ``` ls wisdom/@(arrow|dagger|knife|sword|saber|sabre)
18:07:34 <HackEgo> LANG=C \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="C" \ LC_NUMERIC="C" \ LC_TIME="C" \ LC_COLLATE="C" \ LC_MONETARY="C" \ LC_MESSAGES="C" \ LC_PAPER="C" \ LC_NAME="C" \ LC_ADDRESS="C" \ LC_TELEPHONE="C" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="C" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="C" \ LC_ALL=
18:07:52 <b_jonas> you don't mind extglob, do you?
18:08:52 <b_jonas> it's one of those extensions that don't break anything and should default to enabled if invoked as bash really
18:09:12 <zzo38> Over time we will see.
18:09:32 <b_jonas> unless you're trying crazy stuff like @(){ echo hello; }
18:24:25 <zzo38> I wrote on some paper about some ideas of commands to add to dc and for example absolute value can be implemented like: d_1d1j* and if you want to compute Morton number you can write: ISIOSO2om4ixrmx2*+LIiLOo
18:30:19 <boily> firefox trunks has *nearly* all the same error messages and failures in the console, with the added advantage of no crashes!
18:32:32 <b_jonas> `dc -e ISIOSO2om4ixrmx2*+LIiLOo
18:32:33 <HackEgo> dc: dc: stack empty \ dc: stack empty \ dc: dc: stack empty \ dc: stack empty \ dc: stack empty \ 'm' (0155) unimplemented \ 'm' (0155) unimplemented
18:32:48 <HackEgo> dc: 'j' (0152) unimplemented
18:32:59 <b_jonas> oh, so j is one of your new commands?
18:38:01 <HackEgo> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 11349031
18:38:30 <b_jonas> ruby -wep 1,x=1;18.times{p x=(x/0.618).round}
18:38:43 <b_jonas> `ruby -ex=i=1;p x+=i=x-i while+1
18:38:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ruby: not found
18:38:45 <b_jonas> `ruby -wep 1,x=1;18.times{p x=(x/0.618).round}
18:38:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ruby: not found
18:38:56 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/ruby*: No such file or directory
18:39:05 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
18:39:48 <b_jonas> ``` shopt -s nullglob; eval 'echo {/hackenv/bin,/opt/python27/bin,/opt/ghc/bin,/usr/bin,/bin}/ruby*' fin
18:40:00 <b_jonas> no ruby anywhere? no version?
18:40:05 <b_jonas> ``` shopt -s nullglob; eval 'echo {/hackenv/bin,/opt/python27/bin,/opt/ghc/bin,/usr/bin,/bin}/perl*' fin
18:40:06 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/perl-e /usr/bin/perl /usr/bin/perl5.14.2 /usr/bin/perlbug /usr/bin/perldoc /usr/bin/perlivp /usr/bin/perlthanks fin
18:40:16 <zzo38> I suppose there is no Ruby on HackEgo
18:40:28 <zzo38> (You could ask them to install it if you want it though)
18:40:32 <b_jonas> `ruby -wex=i=1;loop{p x+=i=x-i}
18:40:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ruby: not found
18:40:53 <b_jonas> `dc -e1d[prdk+KdZ5\>x]dsxx
18:40:53 <HackEgo> 1 \ dc: '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 1 \ dc: '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 2 \ dc: '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 3 \ dc: '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 5 \ dc: '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 8 \ dc: '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 13 \ dc: '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 21 \ dc: '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 34 \ dc: '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 55 \ dc: '\' (0134) unimplemente
18:41:05 <b_jonas> `` dc -e1pd[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx|head -20
18:41:06 <HackEgo> dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative
18:41:18 <b_jonas> `` dc -e1pd[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx>/dev/null|head -20
18:41:27 <b_jonas> `` dc -e1pd[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx 2>/dev/null|head -20
18:41:28 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765
18:41:49 <HackEgo> dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative
18:41:53 <b_jonas> `` dc -e1pd[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx|&head -20
18:41:54 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765
18:45:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ```: not found
18:45:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ````: not found
18:49:07 <HackEgo> BASH_EXECUTION_STRING='set | grep '\''`'\'''
18:50:43 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@"
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19:22:03 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@"
19:22:19 <HackEgo> TIMEFORMAT='real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS' exec bash -c -- "$1"
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20:43:09 <\oren\> `` cat wisdom/{oren,oerjan}
20:43:10 <HackEgo> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. \ Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortize
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20:55:43 <HackEgo> Armin van Buuren? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:57:46 <\oren\> why does Tiësto have an ë anyway?
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21:05:18 <olsner> I assumed it was just the way his name is spelled, but apparently Tiesto is made up ... maybe it's just how dutch orthography works
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21:18:18 <HackEgo> oren/oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon.
21:18:30 <HackEgo> alise/elliott's not hiding over here
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21:23:08 <HackEgo> bottom/Bottom is where you might end up with a catamorphism, if not careful. There be balrogs.
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21:53:30 <hppavilion[1]> I need a basic idea for something strange to parse
21:58:02 <hppavilion[1]> myname: One idea I had for an esosport: Random BNF language
21:58:34 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, you have a group of participants. All at the same time, they are given a strange and random grammar (possibly procedurally generated) and told "Go make a language"
21:59:11 <hppavilion[1]> They have to write a lexer and parser (they're free to use tools for it) and make a language in the allotted time and at the end, they turn in their languages (WITH DOCS) for judging
22:14:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brack]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45920 * Hppavilion1 * (+794) Started on design
22:15:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GOTO++]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45921&oldid=45862 * Tuzepoito * (+89) Correction
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22:38:33 <Taneb> hppavilion[1]: board games
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00:16:10 <tswett> One could make a DSL specifically for Magic: the Gathering.
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01:12:42 <ais523> hmm, Firefox is disabling unsigned addons
01:12:56 <ais523> however, the addon in question is a private one that I wrote for my own use, and isn't signed for obvious reasons
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02:13:06 <tswett> Another NN-generated wisdom database entry:
02:13:07 <tswett> 04:41:54: <HackEgo> tapebacklogs are a Chu space of something you don't know if it is probably not because I don't know.
02:14:01 <tswett> An interesting exclamation:
02:14:02 <tswett> 04:54:10: <copumpkin> holy side of the right name
02:14:14 <tswett> "Holy side of the right name, Batman!"
02:14:15 <ais523> what was the corpus? just wisdom and quotes?
02:14:57 <tswett> No, the #esoteric logs from...
02:15:08 <tswett> Might have been from the beginning of 2014 up to the time that I downloaded the logs.
02:15:10 <ais523> oh good, logs are going to be much better for this sort of thing
02:15:27 <ais523> the people doing neural network M:tG cards figured out a way to seed the network
02:15:40 <ais523> i.e. you give it the start of a message, and it completes it for you
02:16:07 <tswett> I think that's been a feature of Karpathy's char-rnn from the very beginning.
02:16:23 <tswett> 15:55:53: <lambdabot> LOWI 051750Z AUTO 14001KT 10SM FEW080 SCT064 BKN030 95/18 A2960 RMK CU1 CI TR SLP267
02:20:25 <tswett> Okay. Date is the 5th, time is 17:50 UTC. Wind is from 140, at a speed of one knot. Visibility is ten miles. Few clouds at 8,000 feet above ground, scattered clouds at 6,400 feet, and broken clouds at 3,000 feet.
02:20:36 <tswett> The temperature is 95 degrees Celsius, holy shit.
02:21:34 <tswett> Dew point is 18 degrees Celsius.
02:24:38 <tswett> I can't find a meaning on Wikipedia for CU1.
02:25:36 <ais523> that's an incredibly arid climate
02:26:24 <tswett> Ah, it's apparently cloud coverage. Only one okta cloud coverage, despite the broken and other cloud layers.
02:27:32 <tswett> I can't find a meaning for CI or TR either.
02:27:46 <tswett> Sea-level pressure is 267 of something.
02:28:55 <lambdabot> CYYZ 200200Z 26012G18KT 15SM OVC045 M02/M09 A3026 RMK SC8 SLP256
02:29:05 <lambdabot> LOWI 200220Z AUTO 05003KT 350V110 4600 FZBR FEW001 M01/M01 Q1025
02:30:41 <tswett> Ah, let's see. Altimeter setting is 29.60 inches mercury. Sea level pressure is 1,026.7... hectopascals?
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02:35:42 <tswett> The altimeter setting is less than the sea level pressure. Does this mean that the airport is below sea level?
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02:37:56 <tswett> The neural net is usually pretty good with boily's quit messages. Here's an interesting exception.
02:38:01 <tswett> 13:47:38: -!- boily has quit (Quit: SCOULN DHICKEN CHICKEN).
02:38:31 <tswett> It created this one; I wonder if boily has ever actually used it.
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02:39:04 <tswett> 13:03:41: <ais523> yep, at least in the syntax how to allow a 2 syntax highlighting as a set of bits because it's already a fair people who believe that it's called "trivial ink"
02:39:18 <tswett> Yeah, there are really too many people who think it's called "trivial ink".
02:39:29 <tswett> We should teach them about how to allow a 2 syntax highlighting.
02:40:12 <mauris> i tried to parse that as a real sentence ;___;
02:40:51 <ais523> mauris: that's because my real sentences are normally possible to parse
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02:48:35 <zzo38> Do you know some things about PCRE?
02:48:56 <ais523> I know some things about PCRE, but not other things
02:50:37 <zzo38> Do you know exactly what UTF-8 text is acceptable if you turned off the checking? It says codes up to 31-bits but it doesn't say about if overlong encodings can be used and other stuff like that.
02:52:21 <ais523> that's one of the things I don't know, sadly
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02:52:48 <shachaf> What are the things you do know?
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02:53:33 <ais523> I know quite a few things about the regex syntax, although sometimes I get them muddled with "actual Perl" regexes
02:53:45 <ais523> have some vague memories of what the API is like but I can't remember the details
02:56:05 <zzo38> There is man pages for the API with C and with C++, and I am making the API with SQL, so I wanted to know some of these thing
02:58:04 <zzo38> For compatibility with other stuff in SQL, it exposes one-based offsets instead of zero-based offsets, and if the PCRE_UTF8 option is selected (or (*UTF8) in the pattern) then it will expose the UTF-8 character offsets instead of the byte offsets, too.
02:59:12 <zzo38> But I want to make it so that if you specify option to don't check valid UTF-8 then my program will do it by itself in the less strict but still acceptable way.
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03:35:58 <FreeFull> ais523: I'm guessing you know what this matches
03:36:38 <ais523> FreeFull: given that you didn't anchor it (or are you doing that with API options), anything that's at least three characters long ;-)
03:36:47 <ais523> if it is anchored, anything that's between three and ten characters
03:36:52 <ais523> minus newlines, if you didn't turn on the option
03:36:55 <ais523> to make . match newlines as well
03:46:56 <ais523> I can't remember the relative precedence of ^ and $ compared to \
03:47:27 <ais523> is that intended to match all non-prime numbers in unary?
03:47:48 <ais523> I know it's possible to do something that works along those lines, that may well be it
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04:00:46 <zzo38> Using callouts you can make it to match only prime numbers (I have tried it).
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04:24:19 <FreeFull> zzo38: But then you're leaving the regex temporarily
04:27:59 <zzo38> Yes, although my own library provides a callout function that can be used for this (and other) purposes.
04:30:02 <zzo38> It might also be possible without callouts, due to some other features in PCRE.
04:36:19 <FreeFull> zzo38: PCRE almost certainly is powerful enough that you don't need callouts
04:37:55 <ais523> FreeFull: it's less than turing-complete without callouts
04:38:01 <ais523> so you might need them in some cases
04:38:20 <ais523> (IIRC it's a push-down automaton, which is much more powerful than regular expressions are but still sub-TC)
04:39:47 <FreeFull> That's interesting, PCRE allows recursive backreferences
04:39:57 <FreeFull> So (a|b\1)+ is a valid pattern
04:40:22 <ais523> err, not with that syntax I don't think
04:40:38 <FreeFull> ais523: I got that directly from the manpage
04:40:45 <ais523> err, actually that doesn't conflict with anything
04:40:50 <ais523> I was confusing it with something else
04:41:27 <FreeFull> ais523: And I was thinking you could use negative lookahead assertions to match primes
04:41:54 <ais523> anchoring a negative lookahead assertion is really hard
04:42:00 <ais523> I don't think it's impossible
04:42:16 <ais523> but I remember an incident a few months (years) back when #esoteric attempted to do it and collectively failed repeatedly for several hours
04:42:23 <FreeFull> Maybe lookbehind assertions too
04:44:35 <ais523> FreeFull: here was the problem (IIRC): you want to write a regex that matches any string that /doesn't/ contain a specific other string
04:44:44 <ais523> where the specific other string is hardcoded
04:45:12 <ais523> can you do it with the size of the resulting regex linear in the size of the string that you're (not) matching against?
04:45:21 <ais523> (where "regex" here is typically either Perl-regex or PCRE-regex)
04:45:30 <ais523> also you can't use callouts
04:46:06 <ais523> err, I was trying to eliminate the FSM solution with the "linear in the size" clause but that doesn't actually work
04:46:39 <ais523> size of the string you're matching against + a constant
04:47:15 <FireFly> Right, so ^(?!.*foo) is too slow. (I think that would work otherwise?)
04:48:08 <FireFly> It's not nice at all though
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04:48:37 <ais523> FireFly: no, it doesn't work
04:51:08 <ais523> let me read the man page to make sure
04:53:09 <ais523> hmm, maybe I'm thinking of some other problem
04:53:12 <ais523> that does seem to work
04:53:15 <ais523> and shouldn't be slow?
04:54:18 <FireFly> I think the .*foo part isn't implemented "cleverly" as an actual FSA in PCRE/other 'powerful' regex engines, or at least used to not be
04:55:17 <FireFly> I don't remember why, but I think the leading .* would cause issues
04:55:18 <ais523> FireFly: wouldn't matter, you'd just do a forward search and then negate the result
04:55:29 <ais523> .*foo has the backtrack penalty
04:55:37 <ais523> I was thinking the ?! wouldn't cost, forgot the .* would
04:56:39 <FireFly> so how would PCRE execute ".*foo"?
04:57:17 <FireFly> In principle it should be possible to compile into an FSA I think?
04:57:19 <ais523> read the entire string, look for an f, if you don't find one go back one character and look for an f again, and so on
04:57:32 <ais523> at least that's how Perl does it
04:57:37 <ais523> PCRE has multiple algos
04:58:12 <FireFly> Having multiple algorithms depending on which features are used makes sense I suppose
04:58:27 <ais523> no, different APIs for them
04:58:33 <ais523> the default algo worked as I described
04:58:39 <ais523> it also has an NFA algo which is called DFA for some reason
04:59:12 <ais523> also it's apparently slower
04:59:16 <ais523> and produces outputs in a different format
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04:59:41 <ais523> presumably that's "slower on regexes that are optimized for the other algo"
04:59:54 <FireFly> It might reduce the NFA to a DFA (and hence call it that)
05:00:12 <ais523> it says "this isn't really a DFA algorithm because" and then goes on to describe an NFA without using the term
05:00:33 <FireFly> So just poor naming then. Like 'qsort' in the standard library
05:01:40 <shachaf> I said that using an NFA or DFA to match a regular expression seems like an obvious case of dynamic programming to me, but someone disagreed.
05:01:49 <shachaf> So maybe it's not obvious.
05:02:22 <shachaf> But I still think it's as reasonable a use of the term as any that I've seen.
05:02:42 <FreeFull> Can't .*foo be matched like a reverse oof.* assuming you know the size of the input?
05:02:45 <ais523> I can't remember what "dynamic programming" means anyway
05:02:52 <ais523> FreeFull: not in a lookahead assertion
05:03:03 <shachaf> I think it means optimizing a tree to a graph, or something.
05:03:06 <ais523> because lookbehind assertions, at least with widely used regex-engines in 2015, can't be vairable length
05:04:42 <FireFly> To me 'dynamic programming' means "break down into potentially overlapping subproblems and don't recompute the same thing twice"
05:05:04 <FireFly> either by memoizing or by figuring out an order to compute things so that previous things are already computed
05:05:47 <ais523> clearly we need to create a #esoteric dynamic programming language based on the literal meanings of the words "dynamic" and "programming" when they're not in conjunction with each other
05:05:53 <ais523> but not the typical technical meanings
05:06:03 <ais523> which would just produce something like JS or Perl
05:06:06 <shachaf> What's the literal meaning of "programming"?
05:06:13 <ais523> instead, "dynamic" as in the managerese/marketingspeak term
05:06:13 <shachaf> Oh, you still mean in the sense of computer programming.
05:06:21 <ais523> and "programming" as in the sense of TV programming
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05:06:49 <shachaf> programming in a dynamic, fast-moving environment
05:06:52 <ais523> i.e. producing a schedule that shows how modern you are
05:07:10 <ais523> then we advertise this as a "dynamic programming language" and make people do a triple-take
05:07:41 <FireFly> Clearly it's about flexible TV show scheduling
05:08:12 <shachaf> "dynamic programming" is a bad name but it's a reasonable concept
05:08:30 <shachaf> FireFly: Is what you said the same as what I said?
05:08:30 <FireFly> It's a terrible name. I have no idea why it was called that
05:09:10 <shachaf> Instead of an NFA, you can make an infinite tree corresponding to a regular expression.
05:09:32 <shachaf> And using that tree is like evaluating it with backtracking.
05:09:39 <FireFly> With one node for each substring?
05:09:56 <shachaf> Well, it's the tree you get by degraphing the graph.
05:10:35 <shachaf> If the graph is a DAG you get a finite tree, I guess.
05:11:07 <shachaf> Or another way of looking at it is that when you match with an NFA, you collapse distinct paths through the NFA if they lead to the same states.
05:12:08 <shachaf> Which is a dynamic programming thing where you share work between "subproblems" that lead to the same state.
05:12:21 <shachaf> But you lose things like backreferences, which depend on the actual path taken, not just the state.
05:12:42 <shachaf> (A tree has no problem supporting backreferences because a state and a path are the same thing.)
05:13:07 <shachaf> I guess that's one definition of a tree -- a graph where there's a unique path from the root to each node.
05:14:52 <shachaf> I wonder whether you can talk about the free/cofree tree on a graph (or a DAG).
05:16:01 <ais523> I don't think there is a unique free tree, is there?
05:16:37 <ais523> the definition of "free" is basically "any two things are distinct unless you can prove them equal using the axioms"
05:17:04 <shachaf> Well, that's the definition of free algebraic structures on a set in universal algerba.
05:17:16 <shachaf> I'm not sure how well it extends to things between other categories.
05:21:44 <shachaf> "F(G) is a free tree on G" would mean something like "for any tree T, tree homomorphisms : F(G) -> T are in natural correspondence with graph homomorphisms : G -> T"
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06:40:13 <zzo38> Now you can see my PCRE wrapper library and you can tell me the comment/question/suggestion/complaint/whatever. It is in the ZIP archive: http://zzo38computer.org/sql/sqlext.zip
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07:28:42 <lambdabot> KOAK 200653Z 32005KT 10SM CLR 08/03 A3013 RMK AO2 SLP201 T00830033
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07:49:44 <HackEgo> Treants are genericized ents for intellectual property reasons
07:49:57 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/treant
07:50:55 <oerjan> `learn Termites are genericized ants for intellectual property reasons.
07:50:57 <HackEgo> Learned 'termite': Termites are genericized ants for intellectual property reasons.
07:53:07 <HackEgo> Marmite is a group mind of fungal microorganisms spreading throughout the supermarkets of the Commonwealth.
07:53:47 <oerjan> `learn Vegemite is genericized marmite for intellectual property reasons.
07:53:49 <HackEgo> Learned 'vegemite': Vegemite is genericized marmite for intellectual property reasons.
07:57:16 <HackEgo> Ants are great architects. They are famous for their highways.
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08:24:31 <HackEgo> wisdom/coulor \ wisdom/ghoul
08:24:41 <HackEgo> Coulor is the correct spelling.
08:28:10 <shachaf> `` rgrep -il 'correct spelling' wisdom
08:28:12 <HackEgo> wisdom/coulor \ wisdom/nooodl \ wisdom/mauris
08:28:50 <HackEgo> maur is the correct spelling
08:29:04 <ais523> OK, that's kind-of clever on two levels
08:32:05 <oerjan> `` rm wisdom/{elronnd,b_jonas}
08:32:07 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/b_jonas': No such file or directory
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09:37:14 <fizzie> Hm. I need to come up with a cover photo for the thesis book.
09:37:27 <fizzie> (Technically the image is optional, but everyone seems to have had one.)
09:38:09 <myname> does it have to be serious?
09:42:50 <fizzie> It should probably at least appear serious to a casual observer.
09:43:22 <ais523> fizzie: what sort of "thesis book" is this?
09:43:32 <fizzie> ais523: The printed version of my doctoral thesis.
09:44:01 <ais523> at least at this university, all printed doctoral theses look identical apart from the date, author name, and number of pages
09:44:10 <ais523> the binding is plain and consistent for all theses, going back years in some cases
09:44:21 <ais523> (although it changes when they go to a new bookbinding company as they don't all have identical equipment)
09:45:13 <fizzie> At Aalto, they have a "series" for them, with some unifying graphical elements (the cover is one out of 7 fixed colors), but there's a special place for a cover photo, which will be enclosed in one out of three shapes (a circle, a cross or an octagon).
09:45:37 <fizzie> So they all look kind of similar, but the contents of the cover image shape are up to the author.
09:46:56 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/tmp/diss_vaihtoehdot.pdf
09:47:12 <fizzie> (The light blue color has been discontinued.)
09:47:28 <fizzie> myname: Noise robust speech recognition, more or less.
09:48:00 <fizzie> When the university was still the Helsinki University of Technology, I think they had un-customizable covers. But they made this new "visual identity" as part of the merger into Aalto University.
09:49:44 <ais523> that cross-shaped photo cutout looks awful
09:50:18 <ais523> somehow I feel that noisy speech deserves a photo of an oscilloscope display showing something meaningful
09:51:12 <fizzie> Well, I mean. There's been several where the cover image has incorporated a spectrogram of something, it's kind of overly obvious.
09:52:00 <fizzie> Mine deals with reverberation, I was thinking of running a 2D sound wave simulation thing (with the cutout shape as walls) and then doing some sort of a visualization on it.
09:52:21 <fizzie> But I don't know if it'd look any good, and there's a nonzero amount of effort to do that.
09:52:34 <ais523> isn't the thesis a considerably nonzero amount of effort anyway?
09:52:51 <ais523> getting my thesis bound took about two or three days of effort, mostly chasing up bookbinders and couriers
09:53:19 <fizzie> Well, nonzero amount of purely optional effort.
09:53:22 <fizzie> The rest is kind of mandatory.
09:53:57 <ais523> there was still a mistake in the binding but a harmless one (we have an author declaration form which we sign to say it isn't plagiarised; it was only meant to be in one physical copy, but they bound it into both, and this is despite me contacting them via email to ask them how to request it to only be placed in one copy, and then making the request in the way they suggested)
09:55:40 <fizzie> I was reading the publication instructions today (to see what they say about the covers), and apparently the printing house is the one who compiles the electronic version the library's going to use, too. I'm somewhat afraid this will wipe out all the hyperlinks and the TOC metadata from the PDF.
09:57:32 <ais523> that was quite different from me, they asked me to PDFify it myself
09:57:38 <ais523> also gave links for an online Word-to-PDF conversion service
09:57:59 <ais523> I had hyperlinks, TOC metadata, and also had to take some font encoding care to make sure it'd copy-paste properly
09:58:05 <ais523> otherwise the plagiarism detector would have had a fit
10:01:09 <fizzie> Heh. Well, we've got this "publication platform" where you fill in the changeable parts (like titles, abstracts, and the cover stuff) and provide a contents PDF, and then you can turn that into an order for Unigrafia, a printing house owned by our university, University of Helsinki, and two other nearby ones.
10:02:36 <fizzie> (Well, owned by a holding company owned by our university, anyway.)
10:06:47 <fizzie> I don't yet know if the library's going to publish the e-copy with articles, either. For the ones with copyright transfers, I've technically got permissions for an electronic version as well, but some of them had conditions like "the download page must prominently display a note saying this and that".
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10:09:56 <ais523> I was quite surprised with the copyright status on the thesis (they said I keep the copyright, and asked for a very limited license to be able to hold it in the library and host the online version)
10:10:12 <ais523> not that I'm complaining
10:10:52 <fizzie> I think that's the case for the part of the thesis I wrote exclusively for the thesis, too. But it's a compilation one, so the articles have been published in conferences and journals.
10:12:18 <ais523> those can be a pain copyrightwise
10:12:42 <fizzie> One of the journal articles was to a very open-access one, though -- they only wanted a CC-BY license for the article, with no copyright transfer, which was nice.
10:15:32 <fizzie> I remember hearing from the gone-before that IEEE used to require an explicit license agreement, but that seems to no longer be the case. "The IEEE does not require individuals working on a thesis to obtain a formal reuse license, however, you may print out this statement to be used as a permission grant."
10:15:46 <fizzie> They've got one of those e-publication conditions, though.
10:17:47 <fizzie> ("please display the following message in a prominent place on the website" + a non-endorsement note and a link how to obtain a license for further republication.)
10:18:13 <fizzie> A lot of the compilation dissertations on our library page have just been published without the articles.
10:18:18 <fizzie> Presumably for this sort of reasons.
10:18:19 <ais523> fizzie: well cc-by is a very permissive license
10:18:30 <ais523> so asking someone to license under it is quite a big request
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10:19:38 <fizzie> Perhaps "if we're not making any money out of this, neither are you" is what they were thinking.
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10:21:32 <Taneb> The disadvantage of using ssh and a chromebook to do most of my programming on is that I don't know any server I can access with OpenCL or Cuda or something similar on it
10:22:15 <Taneb> I mean, there's a nightclub in York called Kuda but that's not the same thing
10:23:20 <fizzie> Doesn't your university have a thing?
10:24:16 <Taneb> None I know of with a GPU
10:25:14 <fizzie> We had a couple of GPU nodes on the shared cluster you could reserve for serious use, and for fiddling around they had (not very powerful, but better than nothing) Nvidia Quadro cards in the Linux workstations, so you could use one that nobody was using.
10:26:53 <fizzie> Can you remotely get into a computer with a graphics card in a classroom, or something like that?
10:28:09 <Taneb> Yeah, I can, but they don't have the libs installed as far as I can tell
10:29:19 <Taneb> I also don't know which are turned on and booted into linux
10:31:58 <fizzie> Aw. I think ours had the CUDA packages installed.
10:32:41 <fizzie> (Also they were all permanently in one operating system, though of course sometimes just randomly off.)
10:35:17 <Taneb> All of our lab PCs dual-boot between Ubuntu 14.04 and Windows 7
10:35:25 <Taneb> Some can also boot into Windows 10
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10:37:30 <fizzie> Wonder why we had separate rooms for Linux and Windows machines. Maybe a license thing.
10:37:53 <fizzie> (I have no idea how Windows volume licensing works, and whether there's a per-machine cost component.)
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10:45:57 <Taneb> The university probably has upwards of 1000 windows machines, a few more that also can boot into Linux I don't think would hurt
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11:33:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45922&oldid=45768 * YourDeathIsComing * (-54)
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12:09:56 <HackEgo> [U+0142 LATIN SMALL LETTER L WITH STROKE]
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13:18:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Qwerty12302 * New user account
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13:50:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gtltem]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45923 * Qwerty12302 * (+1688) Created page with "'''gtltem''' (greater than, less than, exclamation mark) is an esoteric language created by username qwerty12302 in 2015. The language consists only of three characters: <, > ..."
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18:21:41 <zzo38> One reason to have separate room for Windows and Linux might just be to make it clear where they are.
18:22:26 <zzo38> (If the computers can dual-boot then that wouldn't be necessary for that purpose, but is still possible)
18:22:55 <boily> hezzo38. partitioning your house so multiple OSes can cohabit?
18:26:38 <ais523> we do that at work, separate rooms for linux and windows machines
18:27:08 <ais523> but that's mostly so a) you know where to go to find a particular OS, b) if a lot of people need to use the same room for some reason they probably also need to use the same OS
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18:51:16 <zzo38> Yes those are the reasons I have meant.
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18:51:30 <zzo38> I don't meant your house, I did mean in an office or at school.
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19:14:47 <\oren\> I added 奨奪奮姓姻娘娠娯婚婦婿媒媛嫁嫉嫡嬢寂寄密寡寧審寮 אּבּגּדּהּוּזּטּיּךּכּלּמּשׁשׂשּׁשּׂאַאָנּסּףּפּצּקּרּשּתּוֹבֿכֿפֿﭏיִﬞײַﬠ ꝊꝋꝌꝍꝎꝏꝐꝑꝒꝓꝔꝕ ꙀꙁꙂꙃꙄꙅꙆꙇꙈꙉ
19:15:49 <tswett> I like how the neural net seems to have figured out that fungot responds to its name.
19:15:49 <fungot> tswett: and for the times ahead) and the ability to constrain matching. when you say foo for a in m:
19:16:27 <lambdabot> KGRR 201853Z 21019G24KT 10SM BKN250 07/M04 A3003 RMK AO2 PK WND 20026/1843 SLP178 T00721044
19:19:44 <tswett> 13:00:31: <mroman> fungot: Who just zero links to it?
19:19:44 <tswett> 13:16:44: <fungot> mroman: and i find a nice shit in a map to call the [ (as in Haskell.)
19:19:44 <fungot> tswett: i was looking at
19:19:44 <fungot> tswett: 3 would be nice. i think
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19:25:47 <\oren\> some of these characters, specifically , don't officially exist. But they can be inferred from the characters around them.
19:26:06 <lambdabot> ESSB 201920Z 22012KT 9999 BKN026 12/07 Q1000 R30/19//70
19:27:36 <FireFly> tswett: you heard him. Serve three lines, please
19:27:41 <HackEgo> U+FB44 HEBREW LETTER PE WITH DAGESH \ UTF-8: ef ad 84 UTF-16BE: fb44 Decimal: פּ \ פּ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: R (Right-to-Left) \ Decomposition: 05E4 05BC \ \ U+FB45 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ef ad 85 UTF-16BE: fb45 Decimal: ﭅ \ () \ Uppercase: U+FB45 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not A
19:28:01 <FireFly> fungot: what is your preferred pronoun?
19:28:01 <fungot> FireFly: choke and die at some point and dubbed it newio. :s :s :s :s :s
19:30:49 <tswett> fungot: I don't think FireFly's question warrants such a response.
19:30:49 <fungot> tswett: it's as problematic as extreme conciseness " too short" is quite a understatement. fnord
19:31:45 <zzo38> Unicode property is terrible that what you need it to do can depend on what you are using with private use areas and with other stuff; such thing should be either in the font metrics or in the locale data depending on what kind of properties they are.
19:32:07 <tswett> fungot: so, what *is* your preferred pronoun?
19:32:07 <fungot> tswett: it's on-topic, because i'm not on sisc :p
19:32:25 <tswett> fungot: are you saying your preferred pronoun is "it"?
19:32:25 <fungot> tswett: might need a special form, rather than call itself directly.
19:32:39 <tswett> fungot: a special form, you say? Which one did you have in mind?
19:32:40 <fungot> tswett: but the real wtf is that. but you should be upgraded to di
19:33:08 <tswett> fungot: I should upgrade the pronoun I use for you to "di"? I can do that.
19:33:46 <FireFly> I got the impression that fungot would prefer a longer pronoun given their aversion to extreme consiseness above
19:33:46 <fungot> FireFly: what is the reason i've been fnord
19:33:59 <FireFly> oh. 'fnord'. that would explain a thing or five
19:34:11 <FireFly> fungot: so "fnord" it is, then?
19:34:11 <fungot> FireFly: if i do anything, but it doesn't expose them
19:35:02 <ais523> FireFly: I got the impression that the pronoun was extremely short and problematic for that reason
19:35:08 <ais523> the only such pronoun that really fits is the null string
19:35:40 <FireFly> That is a nice interpretation, let's go with that
19:37:31 <tswett> I think that di has made dir desires pretty clear here.
19:37:50 <tswett> Let's give dim what di wants. The choice is dis.
19:48:58 <FireFly> does fungot have any more wisdom for us today?
19:48:58 <fungot> FireFly: now this service won't even stop :p)
19:49:06 <\oren\> @tell b_jonas I added a sample in Serbian to be font demo, which uses ј
19:49:10 <HackEgo> mnoqy/mnoqy used to be monqy before the earthquake.
19:51:28 <HackEgo> 305) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one
19:53:16 <HackEgo> 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 20) IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es fals
19:54:20 <HackEgo> 20) IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler!
19:55:12 <HackEgo> 42) <GregorR> ??? <GregorR> Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos? <GregorR> Or are there monster dildos and cocks? <GregorR> Or are both the dildos and cocks monster?
19:55:17 <zzo38> I am not very good at German writing
19:56:40 <HackEgo> 600) <fungot> elliott: young john soon afterward receives as a visitor a fnord spaniard, fnord de moncada, who has escaped from fnord fnord dissolved in the absolute.
19:56:55 <HackEgo> 73) <Warrigal> Making a small shrine to Lawlabee in my basement is something I should get around to at some point.
19:57:03 <HackEgo> 583) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks
19:57:09 <HackEgo> 499) <fungot> elliott_: it's a machine that looks like you!
19:57:15 <HackEgo> 65) <Warrigal> Ah, vulva. <Warrigal> What is that, anyway?
19:57:17 <ais523> ooh, a good fungot quote
19:57:17 <fungot> ais523: i couldn't gotten all this information in the format
19:57:26 <HackEgo> 929) <Bike> if you say "java" three times to a dark mirror does steele come out and lecture you about operator overloading
19:57:33 <HackEgo> 1112) <Sgeo> NihilistDandy: HOLY FUCK THAT'S STILL ALIVE? <Sgeo> Maybe I should look into it
19:57:37 <int-e> `` grep -i cocks quotes | wc -l
19:57:54 <HackEgo> 1089) <zzo38> Do you like this kind of melody? l8 e4gc'fac'g ^bd'fgfed e4gc'fac'g ^1
19:58:20 <HackEgo> 431) <oerjan> i try to be a hermit but it's hard with all these housemates.
19:58:27 <HackEgo> 1214) <boily> I got my girlfriend through the previous job's intranet IRC channel, so I don't see how the two can conflict...
19:58:43 <HackEgo> 744) <monqy> moral of the story with enough peer pressure nything is possible
19:58:45 <zzo38> Do you like music?
19:58:59 <HackEgo> 854) <GreyKnight> also if a GNU tar feature doesn't make you feel superior to others then you should file a bug report, it was probably unintentional
19:59:14 <HackEgo> 833) <shachaf> Do physicists have half-life crises?
19:59:21 <HackEgo> 1013) <Fiora> shachaf: make friends. help people. find ways to help people be happy. hug people. have fun. make the world a little bit better.
20:04:32 <HackEgo> 120) <AnMaster> cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here.
20:04:59 <HackEgo> 48) <Madelon> both of you, quit it with the f-bombs. <Madelon> kaelis: what's the matter? something censoring stuff you're interested in?
20:05:16 <HackEgo> 270) <oklopol> and then there's the slightly annoying one where suddenly, i start rolling forward and i can't stop <oklopol> like i can be having some great sex dream or whatever and then suddenly "oh god not this again" <oklopol> (i go "not this again" but not necessarily realize it's a dream)
20:05:34 <HackEgo> 1226) <oren> when i was a kid it used to snow on christmas eve. what is this "freezing rain", "sleet" crap? <vanila> yeah seriously, who is evn in charge anymore? <oren> apparently not santa claus <zzo38> Santa Claus is dead by now. \ 1227) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ
20:05:37 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't like 120 because it just reads like i'm being a snarky asshole about the phrasing
20:06:02 <Phantom_Hoover> whereas the actual joke was that zzo is so weird that you sometimes wonder if he actually is a chatbot written in malbolge or twoducks or something
20:06:37 <HackEgo> 1227) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ ｂｅｉｎｇ ｈｉｌａｒｉｏｕｓ
20:07:12 <HackEgo> 666) <NihilistDandy> Benchmarks are only a good measure of surprise
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20:07:47 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: sometimes I'm reading something on a random site I don't normally visit on the website, and suddenly realise it was almost certainly written by zzo38
20:08:08 <ais523> it's rare that you can distinguish a particular person out of the entire world's population by something they wrote, but some people have very distinctive styles
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20:10:08 <ais523> zzo38: no, never quite sure
20:10:11 <ais523> but it feels very likely
20:10:23 <ais523> most recently it was on the c2 wiki
20:10:33 <ais523> have you posted there in the past?
20:10:38 <ais523> if not then it must have been someone else
20:11:05 <zzo38> I have posted there in the past yes, but now I cannot post on there anymore
20:11:47 <zzo38> (I wrote some things about music macro language and so on)
20:15:31 <b_jonas> https://gamesdonequick.com/schedule
20:15:37 <ais523> that's been up for a while
20:15:45 <ais523> although it gets more precise over time
20:15:51 <b_jonas> it can't be older than a few days
20:15:52 <ais523> it was on a temporary page for a while I think
20:16:18 <b_jonas> let me see what goodness they will have this year
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20:19:39 <b_jonas> Oh I so wish they started to include the name of the console or system in that table, for the benefit of people like me who are less into speedrunning.
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20:22:27 <FireFly> Are you only interested in certain systems?
20:22:50 <b_jonas> but it would make it easier to identify the games than from just names
20:23:19 <FireFly> Especially for series that have both an old and more recent game with the same name, such as Ninja Gaiden
20:23:27 <b_jonas> And some of the games are even ambiguous, because they have speedrunnable ports to multiple systems, which are sometimes different.
20:24:33 <b_jonas> Crypt of the Necrodancer is that popular rhythm game that pretends to be a roguelike, right?
20:25:31 <FireFly> Something like that I think
20:25:48 <FireFly> I hope the pokemon glitch exhibition incentive gets met
20:26:24 <b_jonas> “Prince of Persia” played by CapnClever. There are multiple different ports of it, though only one that the speedrunners play, the one with lots of extra levels; plus there's another later game with the same name but that one is crap
20:26:35 <b_jonas> I'll have to watch this one
20:28:02 <b_jonas> oh! an Age of Empires speedrun. great!
20:28:11 <b_jonas> and Grand Theft Auto 3 too
20:29:31 <b_jonas> “Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Master Quest, The” - how is that different compared to just Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time?
20:29:55 <b_jonas> plus there's some classic games
20:31:21 <b_jonas> what's the name of that platformer with very simple graphics where gravity reverses every time the character lands?
20:32:25 <b_jonas> Oh, Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask 4p co-op! that will be interesting
20:32:54 <b_jonas> There's a TASBot block too
20:33:13 <b_jonas> Super Metroid reverse block order? nice
20:34:08 <b_jonas> Ah nice! Mike Tyson's Punch-Out blindfolded! They did that before and it's always great
20:34:35 <b_jonas> Oh, Age of Empires category is "IL Showcase". what does that mean?
20:35:16 <FireFly> I think IL is individual level(s)
20:35:32 <FireFly> so I guess speedrunning individual campaign maps or something
20:36:37 <FireFly> OoT MQ have slightly harder bosses than regular OoT I think, or the dungeons are slightly harder in some way
20:36:48 <FireFly> and Hyrule is mirrored, because supposedly that makes it harder
20:37:42 <b_jonas> oh, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom too
20:38:37 <b_jonas> Mario Kart 64 as bonus incentive
20:38:54 <FireFly> I hope some of the awful games will be amusing
20:39:09 <FireFly> Roundabout cutscene% last SGDQ was a lot of un
20:39:40 <b_jonas> "Wolfenstein: The Old Blood" - um, what's that? is that plain Wolfenstein, or something else?
20:40:16 <FireFly> "It was released on May 5, 2015"
20:40:59 <b_jonas> there's also Super Mario Bros, Pokémon Yellow glitchless, and Super Mario 64 120 stars
20:41:25 <b_jonas> oh, and Super Monkey Ball of course
20:41:29 <b_jonas> I always look forward to that
20:42:15 <FireFly> the kaizo mario games are these crazy super mario romhacks
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20:42:36 <FireFly> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkMuNRjodCQ ← as an example
20:42:36 <b_jonas> Didn't those have some other name? Um,
20:43:49 <zzo38> I have implemented many callouts in my PCRE wrapper library now (some of which are not yet released); do you have some kind of idea of what others could be added too?
20:44:09 <b_jonas> I was confusing it with that popular Super Mario World hack that demands lots of precision
20:45:16 <b_jonas> Oh yes, they're playing Super Mario World race of course, and Yoshi's Island as a bonus incentive
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20:46:50 <b_jonas> Wait. Age of Empires and Grand Theft Auto 3 are played by the same player. Why are there so many players that play both of those games?
20:47:06 <b_jonas> Is there something shared in them? Super mouse skills?
20:47:22 <FireFly> I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but I'm not particularly good at either of those
20:48:25 <b_jonas> There's a ton of Mega Man games played, identified by numbers only, and I can't really place them since they don't tell the system.
20:51:03 <zzo38> I think that if a Magic: the Gathering card would have an ability "Sacrifice target creature: You gain 1 life" then you will not gain any life because the target is not valid by the time it is going to resolve (but you may be able to use another effect to change the target to a valid one).
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20:51:50 <zzo38> That is why you aren't supposed to put targets in the cost
20:55:25 <zzo38> What is your opinion of such thing?
20:57:19 <shachaf> I don't think putting targets in the cost would be a good idea.
20:57:50 <shachaf> But it might be interesting if the cost was something other than sacrificing.
20:58:08 <shachaf> "Remove a jam from target creature: You gain 1 life"
20:58:23 <shachaf> Probably you want something better than gaining 1 life.
20:58:32 <zzo38> Yes, it should be at least 2 life.
20:58:41 <shachaf> Or something other than gaining life.
20:58:49 <shachaf> But that sort of thing would give your opponent an opportunity to sabotage your ability.
20:58:58 <shachaf> b_jonas: A +1/+1 counter, I guess.
21:00:29 <zzo38> That can be an interesting kind of thing and if the target is no longer valid then it won't give you any life points or whatever else the effect might be, so any player can potentially stop it in that way. Even then, if another effect allows to redirect you can make it continue to work again, I think.
21:01:11 <b_jonas> You may have to amend the illegal actions rules first on how to revert consequences of targetting, for targetting can trigger triggers.
21:03:05 <zzo38> I don't see how that is an issue.
21:06:14 <zzo38> But I think that even in the "sacrifice target creature" case you could cause the ability to work by using an effect that changes the target.
21:07:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45924&oldid=45371 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+6) /* String Literals */
21:08:15 <b_jonas> Hmm. Can you cast Hex, target a Wild Cantor with it, pay for the Hex by saccing the same Wild Cantor, and still have the Hex succeed?
21:08:41 <b_jonas> You control the Wild Cantor.
21:10:27 <zzo38> A spell fails only if all of its targets are now illegal.
21:10:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, but I'm not sure casting can work in that order
21:10:51 <zzo38> You have to choose targets before paying costs
21:10:58 <shachaf> The scow is that if a spell has an optional target, if that target becomes illegal, the whole spell fizzles.
21:11:09 <b_jonas> Yes, you have to choose the targets before choosing how to pay, because of strive or whatever that mechanic is called,
21:11:28 <b_jonas> but don't you check the spell for valid targets after paying?
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21:13:31 <zzo38> I think target are checked at 601.2c and 601.2e, and then after that you determine the cost, get a mana step if the cost includes mana, and then you pay the cost, and then the spell is considered to be successfully cast.
21:15:13 <zzo38> (Effects that would alter the cost during the mana step do not alter the cost; the cost is locked in before the mana step, and the rules give an example.)
21:15:30 <b_jonas> yes, the costs are locked in
21:15:46 <b_jonas> and you determine how you'd pay for all the cost, then pay all costs according to that
21:16:00 <zzo38> It doesn't say what happens if the spell goes missing during the process of casting it, although it would seem that the spell is still considered as successfully cast (although it will never resolve in this case).
21:16:21 <b_jonas> So the side effects of paying the costs don't influence how much cost you pay.
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21:16:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, this looks fine
21:17:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: I grepped, and it seems like there's no activated ability with the targets mentioned in the cost.
21:17:34 <b_jonas> I'll have to check for spells with additional costs though.
21:18:38 <b_jonas> nope, no such thing either it seems
21:20:12 <b_jonas> it doesn't seem to appear in alternate costs either
21:21:10 <b_jonas> (alternate costs like that of Daze)
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21:25:59 <zzo38> One situation where a spell could go missing during the process of being cast, is, I suppose, if you manage to cast a spell owned by another player in a multiplayer game, but that player concedes during your mana step.
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21:36:11 <zzo38> If you activate Echo Chamber while you do not have four manas in your mana pool, are you allowed to choose not to activate it if opponent chooses the target that you don't want?
21:38:29 <ais523> zzo38: if you control a copy of a spell owned by a player and that player concedes, is the copy still on the stack?
21:38:47 <ais523> given that it isn't a physical object and so they don't need to take it home with them, I guess there's no reason for it not to be
21:39:07 <zzo38> If they own the copy then it is removed
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21:39:20 <b_jonas> ugh, I've no idea how the multiplayer rules work
21:40:11 <zzo38> "A copy of a spell is owned by the player under whose control it was put on the stack."
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21:41:22 <zzo38> So probably the copy is still on the stack if you control it.
21:44:13 <zzo38> Rule 800.4a says that all objects owned by players who leave the game will be removed, whether they are cards or tokens or something else it does not matter, they are still removed if the owner of those objects is no longer in the game.
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22:28:08 <ais523> you can steal control of a copy of a spell using Commandeer, I think
22:28:53 <zzo38> Yes, and then it is owned by different player than who controls it.
22:43:29 <zzo38> select cast(pcre_replace('(?=\d)(?C148)\d+|[WUBRG](?C1)|X|\([A-Z0]/.\)(?C1)|(?=\(\d)\((?C148)\d+/.\)','0',-11,-1) as int); -- Do you like this?
22:45:20 <zzo38> Can you see its working or its meaning or purpose of such a code?
22:46:21 <ais523> it's allowing a db engine (presumably sqlite) to call out to pcre
22:46:50 <zzo38> Yes, although it is not what I meant; I meant if you can guess what this specific code and pattern is for.
22:46:51 <izabera> you were talking about mtg and then you posted this 100 character regex out of the blue
22:49:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45925&oldid=44356 * Timwi * (+1)
22:53:54 <ais523> `` echo 'select cast(pcre_replace(@(?=\d)(?C148)\d+|[WUBRG](?C1)|X|\([A-Z0]/.\)(?C1)|(?=\(\d)\((?C148)\d+/.\)@,@0@,-11,-1) as int);' | wc -c
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23:14:54 <\oren\> It's fun to commit the faux pas of pronouncing it as folks pass.
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23:49:28 <izabera> do you guys know any file system that mounts compressed archives?
00:00:17 <FireFly> zzo38: given the [WUBRG] I'm going to guess it matches a Magic mana cost or something
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00:23:00 <shachaf> But colorless is also a color now.
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00:33:06 <\oren\> I'm gonna head up to CYYB tomorrow, so I've switched to ircing thru my web server
00:34:42 <lambdabot> CYYB 210000Z 16012KT 15SM OVC230 M02/M06 A3000 RMK CI8 SLP182
00:38:24 <boily> CYYB is a little in the middle of Nowhere, Ontario...
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00:40:31 <lambdabot> CYQB 210000Z 25005KT 15SM FEW030 BKN100 OVC210 M07/M11 A3034 RMK SC1AS7CI1 SC TR SLP282
00:40:37 <lambdabot> CYUL 210000Z 13006KT 15SM BKN038 OVC140 M02/M07 A3034 RMK SC7AC1 SLP278
00:40:43 <lambdabot> CYOW 210000Z 12007KT 15SM BKN130 BKN180 BKN240 M04/M07 A3027 RMK AC5AC1CI1 SLP260
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00:56:19 <b_jonas> Man, this is scary. Network providers are trying to do "interesting" things with routing where they parse the TCP and UDP headers but break traffic that isn't TCP or UDP or that doesn't use TCP the way they expect.
00:56:36 <coppro> \oren\: why on earth do you want to go there?
00:56:54 <b_jonas> So people build protocols that pretend to use TCP and UDP the ordinary way, but actually use it to tunnel something completely different through it, so that the routers don't break their stuff.
00:57:17 <b_jonas> But that's an arms race! Eventually routers will try to parse the nested protocols, then people nest some more,
00:57:33 <b_jonas> and people will be sending packets with hundreds of bytes of nested header just to fool rooters.
00:57:49 <b_jonas> coppro: funnily, multi-path TCP is trying to be based on TCP in such a way that it's transparent to routers.
00:57:49 <coppro> routers shouldn't break non-TCP/UDP packets :(
00:57:59 <oerjan> b_jonas: that arms race should break pretty fast the moment the users include ssl anywhere in the mix
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00:58:10 <b_jonas> coppro: they shouldn't, yes. That's why IP and TCP are separate layers, the routers have to speak only IP.
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01:02:08 <\oren\> Most routers already have NAT which involves parsing UDP and TCP anyway
01:02:50 <b_jonas> and that's just the start, some firewall stuff does much more than that
01:03:51 <coppro> yeah, IPv4 doesn't have enough info for NAT
01:04:17 <coppro> IPv6 doesn't either AIUI, but it obviates NAT in a lot of cases
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01:09:33 <boily> chelloppro! are you calgarying now?
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02:04:09 <boily> fungot: where do you go when you vacation?
02:04:09 <fungot> boily: javascript is cool xd space...) and expr within a string rewriting language, but without getting lost in it
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02:18:32 <oerjan> fungot: so you're saying javascript is ok to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there?
02:18:32 <fungot> oerjan: you probably consed them in the future.
02:18:58 <oerjan> fungot: how do you know that? are you a dreen?
02:18:58 <fungot> oerjan: whats up? girlfriend trouble? i recently upgraded glibc 2.3.3 2.3.4, and now he's speaking english d:
02:19:37 <FireFly> fungot: uhm, that is a rather personal question
02:19:37 <fungot> FireFly: i do, but don't have enough space to copy it
02:19:55 <boily> FirelloFly. remember, fungot has two girlfriends.
02:19:55 <fungot> boily: riastradh will get sick of macosx, macosx, windows), then
02:20:02 <oerjan> fungot: i think girlfriend trouble presupposes a girlfriend
02:20:03 <fungot> oerjan: then you have my undying admiration or wonder". i just want to be
02:20:41 <FireFly> How does it feel to be admired by fungot?
02:20:42 <fungot> FireFly: the variable file is not present in the cheese help to counteract the ill effects of sword swallowing. design: letters sent to sword swallowers requesting information on technique and complications. setting: membership lists of the form
02:21:47 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
02:22:33 <FireFly> irc is the true fungot style
02:22:34 <fungot> FireFly: ' issue' should be distinguished. piracetam also helps healthy people. i have a problem
02:22:58 <FireFly> fungot: I'm sorry. Can I help you somehow with your distinguished issue?
02:22:59 <fungot> FireFly: most things are built to develop. :) " hey, we'll do it together)
02:23:19 <FireFly> Are you saying that you feel your codebase has been neglected, fungot?
02:23:20 <fungot> FireFly: okay, gotcha. didn't think of
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02:42:55 <hppavilion[1]> How about a programming language for which the bulk is Itertools and Functools?
02:48:37 <FireFly> Aren't functional Turing tarpits basically languages based on functools(ish)?
02:48:51 <FireFly> Assuming functools have, like, at least composition and const
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03:01:11 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, what's this "incompressibility method" thing and why did no one tell me about it?
03:07:49 <boily> SKI combinators FTW!
03:07:59 <boily> hellochaf. what's an incompressibility method?
03:08:51 <shachaf> a trick which is too long to type about on my phone hth
03:09:21 <shachaf> and i don't know the details anyway
03:10:25 <shachaf> the idea is apparently that if you want to know the average runtime of an algorithm, or something like that, you can pick a special representative "incompressible" input and look at the runtime for that one input
03:10:50 <shachaf> or maybe there point is that it isn't special
03:11:50 <shachaf> but it is representative, so many statements about it will extend to almost all inputs
03:12:52 <boily> something something everything something...
03:13:54 <shachaf> anyway kolmogorov complexity is p. nifty
03:28:40 <zzo38> shachaf: Colorless is not also a color now; it is just that now there is the symbol that can be paid only by colorless mana. I think still, if you choose a color you can't choose colorless, and something that has both colorless and colored mana costs is not colorless (unless it has the devoid ability), etc
03:29:25 <zzo38> Once Wizards of the Coast will say what letter represents the colorless mana symbol then I can put that in too.
03:30:43 <zzo38> That command does match a mana cost for Magic: the Gathering though; it is deciding the converted mana cost of a card if the full mana cost is the input of that (given as '0' in the example).
03:34:56 <FireFly> Is 'U' for blue mana official? I thought it was just a convention
03:35:03 <zzo38> Yes it is official.
03:35:15 <zzo38> It is even in the rules.
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04:11:51 <\oren\> wow this is the stupidest harem anime setup in the history of stupid harem anime setups
04:13:13 <\oren\> (Rokujouma no shinryakusha. the stupidity has to be seen to be believed)
04:14:25 <zzo38> I don't watch a lot of anime or even other TV show
04:16:30 <\oren\> I didn't watch a lot, until I started working and therefore had more spare time
04:19:19 <boily> probably the only good haremanime (haranimem?) is Love Hina, if only because it has a flying turtle.
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04:44:13 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a funny programming language based on sexiness because why the hell not.
04:44:51 <hppavilion[1]> I wound up formalizing the way you specify n-somes in the process.
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05:12:52 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: There's already a formalization of that. They are mapped to strings matching the regex /m*f*/. hth
05:13:23 <hppavilion[1]> MF can have 2 possible meanings, and it just inflates from there
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05:14:30 <\oren\> well whata bout labeled directed graphs then?
05:14:54 <\oren\> (edges and points labeled)
05:15:19 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: That works, but it has to be able to be put into a tag
05:16:33 <hppavilion[1]> I formulated a system that I'm pretty sure is unambiguous, AND it allows for vagueness as needed (e.g. if you don't care exactly how much tail this guy is getting at once), AND it incorporates time delay, AND it is familiar to anyone who knows regex
05:25:23 <zzo38> RDF is one kind of labeled directed graphs
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06:01:56 <hppavilion[1]> What's wrong with this regex?: /"[^"\\]*(?:\\.[^"\\]*)*"/
06:02:19 <hppavilion[1]> For some reason, PLY uses Docstrings for stuff like this.
06:12:37 <oerjan> i thought today's xkcd had a way for the patient to theoretically escape alive if they had > 100 limbs, but then i read the hovertext.
06:17:35 <oerjan> i guess the bet option is neverending scalp massaging.
06:19:28 <oerjan> i think you can get there without harm if you fake discomfort in the right spot.
06:20:29 <oerjan> wait, is oxygen injection fatal
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06:32:18 <izabera> now that i own a smartphone i can download an app to read xkcd
06:32:37 <izabera> there are several apps for this! which one do i pick
06:35:00 <Elronnd> Oh, there are apps for xkcd?
06:35:16 <Elronnd> Oh, screw it. I'm not reading xkcd on a tiny phone screen
06:35:23 * Elronnd just got a phone recently too
06:43:42 <myname> bigger screen = better at reading manga
06:43:46 <Elronnd> Because, they're huge and unweildy
06:45:45 <myname> i use a nexus 5 and it could be a little taller
06:46:59 <myname> i mean, basically you are saying there is such a thing as a computer screen too big
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06:47:07 <myname> that doesn't make sense
06:47:08 <lifthrasiir> myname: I've got Nexus 5X that is slightly larger
06:47:30 <Elronnd> myname: for something to carry around, I want it small. For something stationary, I want it big
06:47:53 <myname> lifthrasiir: sounds neat
06:48:17 <myname> i am interested in the note series from samsung, but they are just too expensive
06:48:33 <lifthrasiir> I don't want to have a larger phone than that, but 5" seems to be a sweet spot
06:49:02 <pikhq> What I hate is the 6 or the 6p.
06:49:08 <pikhq> Those things are way too big.
06:49:24 <myname> the only valid reason i heard is that pockets on pants for girls are ridiculously small
06:49:39 <pikhq> I want to *hold* my phone.
06:49:53 <lifthrasiir> myname: at 6" you cannot comfortably reach the top area of the screen with one hand
06:50:17 <pikhq> Yes. I have a human hand that I use for holding my phone with one hand and interacting with it.
06:50:21 <myname> lifthrasiir: the trick is to make it so that you barely ever need the top of the phone
06:50:34 <pikhq> If you are not a human being this may not be applicable to you.
06:50:39 <lifthrasiir> myname: greatly depends on apps you are using
06:50:56 <myname> indeed, but just have a look at good apps
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06:51:12 <myname> the put everything you need on the bottom for a reason
06:51:26 <pikhq> Also, frankly, the 5x is just about the maximum size I'd be comfortable with in my pocket.
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06:51:59 <myname> with LMT or any other PIE control you don't even need to reach the top to drop down the notification area <3
06:57:25 <izabera> why do people buy samsung notes?
06:57:52 <myname> because bif screens are awesome for doing computer stuff
06:57:53 <izabera> reminds you of the resistive screens age
06:58:31 <myname> like, my sßartphone is an ssh client at many times
06:58:45 <myname> i want to have a big terminal and keyboard
07:00:25 <myname> nah, 12" laptop at most
07:00:42 <myname> alsoy laptops ten not to last 24h+ with ankers
07:03:15 <myname> on that topic, i'd love to have an arm laptop with like 11", trackpoint and a fullhd display
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07:27:58 <izabera> https://arin.ga/1AXjZf/raw
07:28:26 <izabera> i feel dumb because i wrote noglob like a thousand years ago and didn't realize i could write the others until now
07:28:53 <izabera> then i needed nullglob and i was like "damn, it'd be nice to have something like noglob for nullglob... oh wait"
07:29:25 <izabera> sharing because they may come in handy <.<
07:30:30 <lifthrasiir> (or 32^5, depending on the character set used, but doesn't matter)
07:30:53 <izabera> nope, just using php's tempnam
07:32:23 <izabera> doesn't goo.gl use something similar?
07:32:52 <lifthrasiir> izabera: I thought arin.ga is sequentially numbered because of 000002
07:33:06 <izabera> nope, those are just a few file i hand picked
07:34:44 <izabera> it used to be 000000-000006 but now there's only 0-2
07:35:14 <izabera> also there's arin.ga/aringa
07:37:01 <lifthrasiir> (which is sequentially numbered, by the way)
07:37:07 <izabera> my client is better than theirs
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07:38:30 <izabera> >:o the source isn't available
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07:41:15 <izabera> also they have users, that's not very minimalistic... >.>
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08:05:57 <izabera> i didn't sleep enough, i went to work tired
08:06:14 <izabera> my alarm didn't even ring this morning, wonder why
08:06:26 <izabera> monday morning it's closed
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08:29:48 <oerjan> ah adding explicit -n options fixed it
08:30:08 <oerjan> tmux wasn't showing the actual command names in the status line for some reason.
08:31:57 <oerjan> except for the one which is an actual shell.
08:41:34 <izabera> i downloaded the force awakens and it's in spanish or portuguese
08:43:21 <oerjan> sorry, only the original galactic basic is acceptable hth
08:46:45 <izabera> found an english version yay
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09:13:55 <coppro> read Kaye, Laflamme, & Mosca or Nielsen & Chuang.
09:14:04 <coppro> Former is more accessible but also less comprehensive
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14:32:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Celeritas * New user account
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14:52:10 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, so I wanted to ask some things about nh4, especially the save system
14:52:18 <ais523> b_jonas: in #esoteric?
14:52:22 <ais523> I mean it's not 100% an incorrect place
14:52:25 <b_jonas> ah no, let's try in the other channel
14:52:26 <ais523> but we're both in #nethack4 too
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15:04:53 <Melvar> Hey, what was the thing that reads C types and describes them linearly?
15:05:21 <ais523> it's both a website and a command-line tool
15:05:38 <ais523> seems to be in the ubuntu repos
15:06:10 <Melvar> Not in Fedora, it appears.
15:06:21 <ais523> I'm still waiting for it to install
15:07:57 <ais523> cdecl> cast x into pointer to array 4 of float
15:08:09 <ais523> (an example that actually came up earlier today)
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15:13:07 <ais523> " The declare, cast and explain statements try to point out constructions that are not supported in C. In some cases, a guess is made as to what was really intended. In these cases, the C result is a toy declaration whose semantics will work only in Algol-68. "
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15:14:40 <Melvar> For example, “declare foo as array of function (int) returning int”.
15:15:44 <ais523> Warning: Unsupported in C -- 'Array of function' (maybe you mean "array of pointer to function") int foo[](int )
15:16:03 <Melvar> (I tried it on the website.)
15:17:26 <Melvar> Or “declare foo as array of array of int”.
15:18:06 <ais523> actually Verity doesn't let you do either of those either
15:18:17 <ais523> arrays can only contain int pointers
15:18:34 <ais523> (Verity, being an Algol, has all variables const, but you can define const pointers that point to "stack" locations)
15:19:03 <ais523> in algol 68 it's something like "int ref x = loc int"
15:19:15 <ais523> then you can dereference and assign to x, which is the /name/ of a variable
15:19:19 <ais523> rather than the variable itself
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15:25:44 <Melvar> Huh. Can C actually allow more than two “long” in a row?
15:26:18 <ais523> hmm, you'd expect short short and long long long to have been made illegal (if they weren't already) to allow for future expansion
15:26:25 * ais523 vaguely wonders if unsigned unsigned is legal
15:26:39 <ais523> actually I think there's a specific list of what adjective and adjective/noun combos work
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15:29:28 <Melvar> `cc int main(void) { long long long x = 0; printf("%zu\n", sizeof(x)); }
15:29:37 <HackEgo> <stdin>: In function ‘main’: \ <stdin>:1:28: error: ‘long long long’ is too long for GCC \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
15:29:53 <SgeoIsrael> Figured people would be interested. Also messaged Gregor and pikhq in the hopes they would say something here, but meh
15:30:26 <ais523> GNU folks must have been having fun when they wrote that error message
15:30:30 <SgeoIsrael> (Not that they didn't, but I decided to be impatient)
15:30:34 <ais523> `cc puts("does this work without a main?");
15:30:35 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:6: error: expected declaration specifiers or ‘...’ before string constant \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
15:30:58 * Melvar giggled profusely in a lecture about that error message just now.
15:31:26 <SgeoIsrael> The lecture was about that error message?
15:35:46 <Melvar> No, I just saw the error message here and am simultaneously sitting in an “OS Security” lecture, which is not really for giggling about most of the time.
15:36:59 <ais523> I'd seen the message before but had forgotten about it
15:37:14 <ais523> `cc int main(void) { short short x = 0; printf("%zu\n", sizeof(x)); }
15:37:15 <HackEgo> <stdin>: In function ‘main’: \ <stdin>:1:24: error: duplicate ‘short’ \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
15:37:22 <ais523> OK, that's less interesting
15:37:29 <ais523> `cc int main(void) { unsigned unsigned x = 0; printf("%zu\n", sizeof(x)); }
15:37:30 <HackEgo> <stdin>: In function ‘main’: \ <stdin>:1:27: error: duplicate ‘unsigned’ \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
15:38:57 <ais523> it refers to a type that's at least 64 bits long, possibly longer
15:39:36 <Melvar> Oh? It doesn’t only need to be strictly longer than int and at least as long as long?
15:39:39 <ais523> on 32-bit Linux systems and 32- or 64-bit Windows systems, the usual is char=8, short=16, int=32, long=32, long long=64
15:39:53 <ais523> on 64-bit Linux, it's slightly different: char=8, short=16, int=32, long=64, long long=64
15:40:16 <ais523> 16-bit Windows was char=8, short=16, int=16, long=32; long long would be 64 but I'm not sure it has any C99 compilers
15:40:29 <ais523> Melvar: hmm, I'm not sure
15:40:39 <ais523> possibility of the standard integer types being out of order hadn't crossed my mind
15:40:51 <ais523> there is no good reason for them to be out of order, so I'd hope the standards committee had banned that
15:41:38 <SgeoIsrael> Just use the number of bits in the name of the type >.>
15:41:46 <Melvar> Not out of order, but IIRC there’s a few “at least as big as” rules.
15:42:08 <Melvar> SgeoIsrael: #include <stdint.h>
15:42:24 <ais523> there's also inttypes.h
15:42:29 <ais523> we have two competing integer headers!
15:42:36 <ais523> also limits.h, which serves a similar purpose
15:42:53 <Melvar> “The <inttypes.h> header shall include the <stdint.h> header.”
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15:48:20 <izabera> i'm a functional programming noob, so this is a noob question: how is memoization "functional"?
15:52:11 <izabera> doesn't it require an external data structure to save the data?
15:55:18 <Melvar> I wouldn’t call it functional.
15:56:46 <SgeoIsrael> It's a non functional thing that makes functional programming more efficient in some ways sometimes
15:57:04 <SgeoIsrael> It's non functional but helps functional code more often
16:08:02 * izabera relabels functional languages as liar languages
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16:31:51 <b_jonas> Ok, so did I reassemble the comfy armchair slanted, or is it the desk that's slanted? I bet it's the former
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16:45:32 <lambdabot> CYQB 211642Z 07005KT 12SM -SN OVC064 M02/M05 A2999 RMK SC8 SLP160
16:46:35 <b_jonas> `8-ball Did I reassemble the comfy armchair slanted?
16:47:39 <boily> cursed by ikea furniture?
16:48:05 <b_jonas> it's still quite a good chair
16:48:11 <b_jonas> was totally worth to get it here in the new home
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18:14:26 <hppavilion[1]> And I'll have to restructure the code to implement environments. I need an environment in LISPy languages, right?
18:14:55 <boily> helloppavellon[1]!
18:15:01 <boily> yay for LISPing the world!
18:17:16 <Elronnd> "languages, right?" was on a nother line in my client, so it looked like "I need an environment in LISPy"
18:18:53 <boily> (def chicken (x) (print (+ (to-uppercase x) "CHICKEN")))
18:19:20 <hppavilion[1]> I was considering making my LISP support Python libraries as a backup when importing a normal lib doesn't work
18:19:21 * Elronnd doesn't actually know lisp
18:19:33 <ais523> boily: does + concatenate strings in the lisp variant you're using?
18:20:13 <b_jonas> fungot, do you like grapes?
18:21:06 <HackEgo> Robots are deterministic finite Belgians that repeat themselves. Taneb invented them.
18:21:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wisdo: not found
18:21:24 <HackEgo> cosplay/Cosplay is the art of dressing up as people to show off to other people dressed up as people.
18:21:29 <HackEgo> module/A module is like a vector space, except with a ring instead of a field.
18:21:36 <HackEgo> moth/Moths are the main ingredient of mothballs.
18:22:59 <shachaf> would people object if i changed the no-wisdom-found message
18:23:12 <boily> ais523: his523. I went with what I could remember Python used.
18:23:19 <shachaf> it's bad with this terminal and it's also kind of bad in general
18:23:27 <boily> I haven't Pythonned in a long time, and my memory's getting fuzzy about it :/
18:23:47 <boily> Kids, Java is bad for you programental health. Don't do it at home.
18:23:48 <ais523> idea: a sexp-based language which is semantically nothing like lisp
18:23:48 <b_jonas> shachaf: and I should make a command for multi-search of wisdoms instead of just one in aline
18:23:50 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Well to uppercase you use str.upper() in python
18:24:04 <b_jonas> shachaf: also, change the "command not found" message because it's ugly
18:24:07 <boily> hppavilion[1]: see! too much of the J-word!
18:24:37 <shachaf> b_jonas: We can't change that from within the system.
18:24:58 <b_jonas> `le/rn not found/not found? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:26:34 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: no. plain scheme works like that. sadly.
18:27:17 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: scheme has crazy interpretations of too many arguments to some of the arithmetic primitives.
18:27:39 <hppavilion[1]> The most advanced program ever written in my LISPy is (WHILE (INPUT) (PRINT "You said something!"))
18:27:56 <boily> variadic functions are interesting, but are too much of a mess imho hth
18:28:03 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps we should make a mathematical lisp for mathematicians?
18:28:17 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: that one exists too, sadly. it's called Mathematica.
18:28:23 <boily> much better to 'foldl (>) minBound'.
18:28:32 <b_jonas> (It's quite well done actually.)
18:28:48 <b_jonas> But it's not for the kind of mathematicians I am.
18:30:20 <shachaf> foldl and reduce are approximately the same thing, and neither of them makes sense.
18:31:17 <shachaf> :t let xs = [5,4,3,2,1] in and (zipWith (>) xs (tail xs)) -- maybe
18:35:00 <b_jonas> The difference is that Python and Mathematica also supports mixing of relation signs in chains, such as x <= y < z, whereas scheme doesn't.
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18:39:44 <b_jonas> oh, and the fun starts when you try to see the value of (0 != 1 != 0) in different languages
18:40:07 <b_jonas> in Mathematica, it's false. in Python, I think it's true. In scheme, I think it's also false. But I'm not sure I remember this right.
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18:52:54 <hppavilion[1]> For my MathLISP, should I allow sets to be constructed in sety notation ({1, 2, 3}), or should I restrict it to something like "(set 1 2 3)"?
18:53:22 <shachaf> As long as you allow bag brackets for bags, it's fine.
18:53:34 <hppavilion[1]> The former is more readable and more mathematical, but it also obligates me to implement set-builder notation in a simple way. The latter is more in line with LISPiness
18:54:07 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Well of course. I'd probably allow either {$ $} as well as the unicode characters, though
18:54:21 <shachaf> I think almost none of those are true.
18:54:50 <hppavilion[1]> (That moment when you use s notation and completely change a sentence's meaning)
18:55:43 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: The latter is definitely LISPier, and the former is more mathy to most people. Set-builder notation seems obligatory.
18:56:11 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, obviously {1, 2, 3} and (set 1 2 3) are equivalent, because syntax /= reality, but...
18:56:36 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: But what do you think? {...} or (set ...)?
18:56:50 <hppavilion[1]> If I do {...}, I'll also implement matrix notation
18:56:57 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Because you were the first person to respond to me.
18:57:04 <shachaf> I'll make sure not to do that next time.
18:57:27 <hppavilion[1]> And thus you are required by esia law to answer my question about implementation
18:57:44 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: shachaf isn't going to help. What do you think?
18:58:02 <izabera> literally sit down at my computer 20 seconds ago
18:58:03 <shachaf> Don't pick on people like that.
18:58:31 <shachaf> Especially not me, but also other people.
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19:02:43 <hppavilion[1]> Another question: since I'm implementing num*const (e.g. you can write 5i and it is a complex number), should I allow inline complex numbers? i.e. can you write 2+5i, or should you have to do (+ 2 5i)?
19:03:07 <hppavilion[1]> Or maybe I should even make you do (+ 2 (* 5 i)) or even (+ 2 (* 5 (i)))
19:03:36 <izabera> yeah don't make it too easy
19:04:42 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I thought sloth was a virtue among programmers.
19:04:58 <izabera> not when they're implementing languages
19:05:10 <hppavilion[1]> Sloth leads to minimalism if channelled correctly, and to effective tools to do stuff for you.
19:05:21 <izabera> minimalism harms usability in this case
19:05:59 <hppavilion[1]> Though I do think that (set 1 2 3) might actually be better
19:06:17 <hppavilion[1]> And that way I can get away with more restricted set-builder notation
19:07:01 <hppavilion[1]> Fuck it, I'll implement set notation later if ever.
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19:28:01 <hppavilion[1]> 5.0 is becoming the int 5, followed by the function ., followed by the number 0
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19:42:56 <hppavilion[1]> Somehow, Lex detects the order in which functions are defined in the file
19:43:19 <hppavilion[1]> Which, AFAIK, shouldn't be possible, even with the C API, because I'm pretty sure globals() returns a dict, not an odict
19:51:24 <zzo38> Why is my system load average stuck at 3.0?
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19:56:05 <izabera> you didn't shake it properly
19:56:55 <ais523> zzo38: look for three processes using 33% CPU each
19:57:17 <ais523> or if you have more than one core, 50% or 100% each for 2 and 3+ cores respectively
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19:59:04 <zzo38> Actually it seems to be working except that it always adds 3.0 to what it is supposed to be; I don't know how system load average is calculated in Linux though
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20:10:35 <hppavilion[1]> What should the empty (output) be for bit shifts and bitwise operations?
20:10:54 <hppavilion[1]> e.g. what's the MathLisp expression `(&)` (no arguments) equivalent to?
20:15:44 <mauris_> well, it should be the identity for the operation in question
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20:15:57 <mauris> so (+) is 0 because x + 0 == 0 + x == x
20:16:07 <mauris> and (*) is 1 for the same reason
20:16:27 <mauris> so (&) should be -1, and (|) and (^) should be 0
20:16:44 <mauris> whereas (<<) and (>>) aren't defined
20:29:10 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: They aren't defined because they are side-based?
20:29:55 <mauris> yeah. (the mathsy way to say that is "not commutative", i.e. x << y isn't y << x)
20:30:48 <shachaf> Things that aren't commutative can still have identities.
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20:32:18 <hppavilion[1]> oren_webclient: Hack the shit out of their wifi then. They deserve it.
20:32:44 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: COMMUTATIVE! THAT'S THE WORD I WAS LOOKING FOR!
20:33:22 <hppavilion[1]> Or I suppose in the case of <<, they're the same, but there's another one?
20:33:51 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose for x<<y, x=0 is commutative, x=111... is commutative, and y=0 is commutative
20:34:02 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, but you shift in zeros, because << isn't rotate
20:34:09 <mauris> commutativity isn't per se reason, yeah, oops
20:34:32 <mauris> if you call string concatenation ++, then having (++) be the empty string is a good idea, because it's a left and right identity
20:34:44 <mauris> but "a" ++ "b" isn't "b" ++ "a", of course
20:35:16 <mauris> hppavilion[1]: "commutative", here, applies to the operator, not its operands
20:35:17 <hppavilion[1]> So <<< for rotate would have 4 identities: x<<<y where x=0, x=1 for all the slots, y=0, and y=the number of slots
20:35:51 <mauris> i think both have a right identity (0) but no left identity
20:36:53 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: But if <<< is rotate with a fixed size (say, 64 bits), then doesn't it have the left identities 0 and 2**64?
20:37:14 <mauris> (hmm... i don't know how shifts work with negative numbers. i suppose x >> y is x << (-y) and vice versa)
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20:38:19 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: Perhaps x<<y where x<0 is... OK, I have NFC unless we do something petty like use encodings
20:38:42 <hppavilion[1]> If we allow encodings, we could make the low bit the sign bit (as there is not "high bit" on unbounded integers)
20:39:13 <mauris> for <<, 0 is a left "absorbing element". (0 << x) == 0. there's no left identity L so that (L << x) == L, though
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20:42:27 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, it's mauris the automaton expert
20:43:51 <shachaf> are there classes of DFAs/NFAs that you can intersect efficiently?
20:48:07 <mauris> this guy says yes http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/a/28061
20:50:28 <mauris> i can also think of the silly example where: it's easy to determine if one of them accepts nothing at all, and then you can "intersect" them "efficiently" :(
20:51:50 <shachaf> is there a standard algorithm for collapsing a tree with various equal subtrees into a minimal graph?
21:01:02 <mauris> hmm, i imagine you could iterate over it post-order, and keep track of a set of subtrees you've already seen?
21:01:47 <shachaf> I suppose this is a special case of DFA minimization.
21:07:44 <mauris> ooh http://galaxy.eti.pg.gda.pl/katedry/kiw/pracownicy/Jan.Daciuk/personal/adfa.html
21:13:17 <mauris> hmm, an idea i had: if you're not sure whether some set is countably infinite or even bigger, you can ask the question "can i visually represent each element of the set?"
21:14:59 <mauris> finite automata and trees and graphs are good examples! you can draw each of them, so there's some injection from "automata/trees/graphs" to "bitmap images of drawings of automata/trees/graphs"
21:16:14 <mauris> and bitmap images are just sequences of bytes, which clearly form a countably infinite set
21:17:11 <shachaf> Well, another question you can ask is whether you can use strings of bits.
21:17:22 <mauris> what this boils down to: i guess for a set to be bigger than aleph_0, its elements need to encode some kind of "infinite" structure themselves?
21:20:02 <mauris> i wonder if there's a more formal way to state that. "structure" is so vague!
21:23:21 <shachaf> I would state it structurally.
21:23:49 <shachaf> Which I guess is to say, in terms of injections and surjections with finite and infinite setts.
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21:34:10 <shachaf> Maybe not very helpful to you.
21:35:47 <hppavilion[1]> That seems like an excellent idea... What could possibly go wrong?
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21:45:40 <izabera> CMD as in windows' cmd.exe ?
21:45:54 <izabera> are you going to host a public shell?
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21:52:40 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: A command line. Not a public shell; more of a tool to be 1337 on the internet
21:53:16 <hppavilion[1]> Since everything is moveing to browser, I figure why not make a browser-based command line?
21:59:43 <hppavilion[1]> Now I just have to figure out how to parse with YACC...
22:00:39 <izabera> parsing shell scripts proprly isn't trivial
22:01:04 <izabera> also i don't know the difference between "a command line" and "a pubblic shell"
22:01:45 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It's not a public shell. It's a command-line interface that is used for interacting with the interwebz instead of with someone's computer
22:03:18 <izabera> or rather what do you want it to do?
22:03:59 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of a traditional filesys, you'll store webpage URLs
22:10:56 <lambdabot> CYYB 212200Z 10003KT 1/2SM R08/5000VP6000FT/D -DZ FG VV003 01/01 A2974 RMK FG8 SLP087
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22:16:58 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: There. I wrote a 6-mode unixy CLI lexer/sorta parser.
22:17:31 <hppavilion[1]> It matches strings, -flags (equivalent to -f -l -a -g -s), --flags (no equivalent), and --key=value
22:18:22 <hppavilion[1]> It produces a 3-tuple: first argument is the command and its argument, second is a list of non-valued flags, third is a dict matching flags to values.
22:18:42 <hppavilion[1]> Only thing it can't do that I wish it could is lists
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23:00:33 <zzo38> There is already program such as curl and wget and nc and so on can be used to work with internet resources
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00:18:31 <\oren\> In about an hour ther's gonna be a space launch!
00:18:52 <\oren\> Elon Musk is trying again
00:19:17 <\oren\> will he win the pissing contest against Jeff Bezos? find out tonight!
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00:54:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ginotitant * New user account
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01:14:18 <zzo38> I am making the program to store the Magic: the Gathering cards that I made up into a SQLite database, including when each card is last updated so that you can keep track of changes; the cards will still be editing in the cards.txt file but now you can store them in the database too, which may allow to post user comments and whatever else too.
01:14:50 <zzo38> For the color and color identity of the cards I am using a bit field to store them, with 1=white 2=blue 4=black 8=red 16=green, do you think this is OK?
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01:29:32 <hppavilion[1]> That moment when you've narrowed down the bug in your code to a single function call
01:29:49 <hppavilion[1]> But the interpreter isn't spitting out the errors and telling you the problem
01:38:10 <Elronnd> The greatest moment in a programmer's life can be said to be the moment where the first time he writes something it does exactly what he wants it to without any errors
01:38:47 <Elronnd> Replace all instances of he with (s)he or he/she if you're the sort of person that's bothered by that sort of thing
01:41:55 <\oren\> the Space X falcon 9 first stage has just made a successful powered landing
01:44:27 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: I've turned to that right before the first stage lands, that really was perfect
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02:23:56 <zzo38> My PCRE wrapper library had a problem with caching compiled regular expressions, although I have fixed it now. (I noticed the problem when writing the program I described above; with valgrind it went more slowly, and I got a more detailed error message about the problem, although also with valgrind the program nevertheless produced correct output; without valgrind it crashed)
02:32:08 <zzo38> I got the code to parse the header of each card to work correctly, now I need to write the parser for the text of the card too.
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02:59:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Timwi]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45926&oldid=44519 * Timwi * (+85) /* Other esoteric programming languages I wrote code in */
03:00:21 <zzo38> While SQLite supports BEFORE and AFTER triggers on non-virtual tables and INSTEAD OF triggers on views, almost all triggers I put in a database tend to be INSTEAD OF triggers. I have heard that MySQL does not support triggers on views at all.
03:01:52 <HackEgo> syntax/Syntax is just a subset of grammar.
03:05:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Timwi]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45927&oldid=45926 * Timwi * (-2)
03:07:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45928&oldid=45471 * Conor O'Brien * (+22) /* Languages I have made */
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03:22:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jolf]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45929 * Conor O'Brien * (+153) Created page with "**Jolf** is a prefix-notation language that transpiles to JavaScript, made by [[User:Conor O'Brien]]. [[Category:Languages]][[Category:Turing-complete]]"
03:23:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jolf]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45930&oldid=45929 * Conor O'Brien * (-11)
03:25:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jolf]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45931&oldid=45930 * Conor O'Brien * (+42)
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03:37:21 <HackEgo> tvtrope/We'll write about TVTropes here, we just have to finish these tabs first.
03:37:41 <boily> `mv wisdom/tvtrope{,s}
03:37:42 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `wisdom/tvtrope{,s}' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
03:37:57 <boily> `mv wisdom/tvtrope wisdom/tvtropes
03:37:58 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `wisdom/tvtrope wisdom/tvtropes' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
03:38:04 * boily mapoles HackEgo again
03:38:10 <boily> `` mv wisdom/tvtrope wisdom/tvtropes
03:39:13 <HackEgo> apt-get/apt-get installs whatever you wanted, plus whatever Mark Shuttleworth wanted.
03:39:26 <boily> this, is tanebvented.
03:43:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jolf]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45932&oldid=45931 * Conor O'Brien * (+1817)
03:43:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jolf]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45933&oldid=45932 * Conor O'Brien * (+0)
03:47:13 <zzo38> I prefer All The Tropes rather than TV Tropes; I think there is the wisdom file for both by now I suppose
03:47:18 <HackEgo> A card game where you win if you collect *all* of the tropes.
03:56:13 <zzo38> Do you understand this kind of card game very well? I do not.
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04:15:35 <boily> time to lower the Mean Humanity Consciousness Level and sink into peaceful slumber.
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04:27:44 <quintopia> http://cjam.aditsu.net/#code=0aarari*%7B%5Cf%7B%5C~7%22W%25z%22a*3%22Wf%25%22t%3Cs~%7D(%7B__Ser%2B%7D%25%5C~.%2B%2B%7D%2FN*&input=160%203
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07:06:28 <zzo38> I believe I have found a bug in SQLite (while having problems debugging a SQL program). I will describe here too in case it gets lost on #sqlite channel, and also just in case anyone interested in such thing; I know this channel has logs
07:09:41 <zzo38> Reviewing the source-codes of SQLite, I find that the AuxData structure used by sqlite3_get_auxdata and related functions stores only the line number and argument position that it is associated with; each VDBE program instance has a list of AuxData. However, subprograms each start at line number 0, so if there is a Function opcode on the same line number of different subprograms of the same VDBE instance then it gets confused.
07:10:07 <zzo38> (Each trigger is a subprogram of the VDBE)
07:13:53 <zzo38> It might depend what you have so far and what kind of classy things and so on.
07:14:46 <hppavilion[1]> (IF T (print "This will always print!") (print "Why is this even here?"))
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07:46:29 <oerjan> fizzie: fungot fled furiously
07:47:23 * oerjan has moved on to the tatham Undead puzzle
07:47:35 <oerjan> also surprisingly addictive once you get the hang of it
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08:07:09 <fizzie> Is that the zombie/vampire/ghost one?
08:08:06 <fizzie> "Unable to connect." well that's not right
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09:09:13 <zzo38> A polyglot program in C and SQL: http://sprunge.us/FfHN
09:25:55 <zzo38> Now see if you can do it better than I do.
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13:45:42 <HackEgo> cube/Cubes come in all sizes, colors and materials, but only one shape.
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15:24:18 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
15:24:41 <olsner> `learn boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department and likes cubes.
15:24:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'boily': boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department and likes cubes.
15:24:56 <boily> hellolsner. I think there's a special entry for things I like.
15:25:00 <boily> `? things boily like
15:25:01 <HackEgo> things boily like? ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:25:15 <boily> `` ls wisdom/thing*
15:25:24 <boily> `? things boily likes
15:25:25 <HackEgo> Fire is good. I like fire. Also chicken. And phở.
15:25:48 <boily> `` ls wisdom/learn*
15:25:49 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/learn*: No such file or directory
15:25:55 <HackEgo> bin/learn \ bin/learn_append \ bin/learn_append2
15:26:13 <boily> `learn_append Moreover, cubes.
15:26:15 <HackEgo> Can't open wisdom/moreover,: No such file or directory. \ Learned 'moreover,': cubes.
15:26:28 <olsner> `learn_append "things boily likes" Moreover, cubes.
15:26:30 <HackEgo> Can't open wisdom/"thing: No such file or directory. \ Learned '"thing': boily likes" Moreover, cubes.
15:26:36 <HackEgo> boily likes" Moreover, cubes.
15:27:08 <boily> `` rm wisdom/moreover*
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15:29:10 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ stuff=$(echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-) \ perl -i -p -e 's/\n/ /' "wisdom/$topic" \ echo "$stuff" >>"wisdom/$topic" \ echo -n "Learned '$topic': " \ cat "wisdom/$topic"
15:30:46 <olsner> `` sed -i '/^topic/ s/\$.*$/"&"/' bin/learn_append
15:30:50 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic="$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//')" \ stuff=$(echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-) \ perl -i -p -e 's/\n/ /' "wisdom/$topic" \ echo "$stuff" >>"wisdom/$topic" \ echo -n "Learned '$topic': " \ cat "wisdom/$topic"
15:31:05 <olsner> `learn_append "things boily likes" Moreover, cubes.
15:31:08 <HackEgo> Can't open wisdom/"thing: No such file or directory. \ Learned '"thing': boily likes" Moreover, cubes.
15:31:35 <olsner> it seems $1 is already split
15:31:50 <olsner> `learn_append things\ boily\ likes Moreover, cubes.
15:31:52 <HackEgo> Can't open wisdom/things\: No such file or directory. \ Learned 'things\': boily\ likes Moreover, cubes.
15:31:59 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/things\\\\': No such file or directory
15:33:29 <b_jonas> fungot, how high a christmas tree do you have in your home?
15:33:29 <fungot> b_jonas: i speak gb2312)? how do you receive this in analogue? the rest of us is the fnord
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15:34:36 <olsner> fungot: not you, how high is your *christmas tree*
15:34:36 <fungot> olsner: eastern telecom routing agency bot. but yes, they do nothing by themselves except in extraordinary circumstances
15:34:55 <HackEgo> go/Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
15:34:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: widsom: not found
15:35:05 <HackEgo> oren/oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon.
15:35:06 <HackEgo> coonspirator/A coonspirator is caterpillar silk wrapped in collaborators.
15:35:10 <HackEgo> olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines.
15:35:27 <olsner> `learn django is a giraffe
15:35:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'django': django is a giraffe
15:35:31 <HackEgo> thé/Thé is an oddly-spelled hot beverage popular in the Commonwealth.
15:39:20 <mauris> `wisdom cocoonspirator
15:39:21 <HackEgo> cocoonspirator/A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in caterpillar silk
15:40:34 <boily> I'm really out of date for the PDF...
15:55:25 <boily> mhelloris! maurhellos? uhm... bon mauristin?
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17:50:03 <izabera> is it possible to add two combining characters to A ?
18:00:28 <b_jonas> izabera: there are some precomposed characters that already decompose to a base and two combining characters, mostly for Vietnamese, and you can make new ones for pronunciation stuff which has more possibilities than would be worth to encode as precomposed characters.
18:00:33 <HackEgo> [U+01FA LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH RING ABOVE AND ACUTE]
18:00:39 <coppro> that's a character? O_o
18:01:15 <coppro> does any language actually do that?
18:01:16 <\oren\> yes, and it's in my font. (I don't have the combining characters)
18:02:15 <b_jonas> I was thinking more of the Vietnamese letters with stress marks
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18:03:21 <FreeFull> You can actually stack as many combining characters as you want
18:03:30 <FreeFull> Which is how the Zalgo thing is done
18:04:33 <HackEgo> [U+01D5 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U WITH DIAERESIS AND MACRON] [U+01D6 LATIN SMALL LETTER U WITH DIAERESIS AND MACRON] [U+01D7 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U WITH DIAERESIS AND ACUTE] [U+01D8 LATIN SMALL LETTER U WITH DIAERESIS AND ACUTE] [U+01D9 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U WITH DIAERESIS AND CARON] [U+01DA LATIN SMALL LETTER U WITH DIAERESIS AND CARON] [U+01DB L
18:05:23 <HackEgo> 284) <oklopol> esperanto is just spanish with a diarrhea \ 1251) <oren> I'm making a new font. I'm up to the capital E with diarhea
18:06:48 <izabera> i didn't need to know the diarrhea part but thanks i guess
18:10:23 <oerjan> `? learn Diarrhea is the most sickening accent, although some others are more grave.
18:10:24 <HackEgo> learn Diarrhea is the most sickening accent, although some others are more grave.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:10:31 <oerjan> `learn Diarrhea is the most sickening accent, although some others are more grave.
18:10:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'diarrhea': Diarrhea is the most sickening accent, although some others are more grave.
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18:13:06 <HackEgo> [U+A640 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ZEMLYA] [U+0020 SPACE]
18:18:14 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ [[ "$1" = */* ]] || exit \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | cut -d / -f 1) \ [ -z "$topic" ] && exit 1 \ value=$(echo "$1" | cut -d / -f 2-) \ echo "$value" > wisdom/"$topic" && echo "Learned «$topic»"
18:18:21 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic="$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//')" \ stuff=$(echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-) \ perl -i -p -e 's/\n/ /' "wisdom/$topic" \ echo "$stuff" >>"wisdom/$topic" \ echo -n "Learned '$topic': " \ cat "wisdom/$topic"
18:19:49 <izabera> can't you guys write scripts in a language that i don't know?
18:21:06 <zzo38> What language you don't know?
18:21:22 <HackEgo> key=$(mk "$@") && echo "$key" && chmod +x "$key"
18:21:26 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
18:25:13 <myname> you don't know befunge?
18:25:35 <oerjan> ok my patience just ran out because the hg browser won't show a simple script file raw in the browser.
18:32:52 <oerjan> `` cat le/rn bin/learn_append | sed '6,9d;s/value/stuff/' >le/rn_append; chmod +x le/rn_append
18:33:03 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ [[ "$1" = */* ]] || exit \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | cut -d / -f 1) \ [ -z "$topic" ] && exit 1 \ stuff=$(echo "$1" | cut -d / -f 2-) \ perl -i -p -e 's/\n/ /' "wisdom/$topic" \ echo "$stuff" >>"wisdom/$topic" \ echo -n "Learned '$topic': " \ cat "wisdom/$topic"
18:34:22 <oerjan> `le/rn_append things boily likes/Moreover, cubes.
18:34:24 <HackEgo> Learned 'things boily likes': Fire is good. I like fire. Also chicken. And phở. Moreover, cubes.
18:34:42 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department and likes cubes.
18:35:35 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/department.*/department./' wisdom/boily
18:35:41 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
18:41:39 <shachaf> taneb -> tanebventions; boily -> boilikes??
18:43:16 <oerjan> i considered that, but it felt a bit ugly.
18:43:41 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, robots, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
18:44:03 <HackEgo> Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
18:45:03 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/progress/cigars, &/' wisdom/tanebvention
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18:46:03 <oerjan> `learn Django is a giraffe.
18:46:05 <HackEgo> Learned 'django': Django is a giraffe.
18:46:41 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, robots, cigars, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
18:47:20 <shachaf> I feel like that should be shuffled around so that it rhymes, and maybe set to a tune.
18:48:09 <oerjan> the major general song, presumably.
18:48:18 <shachaf> Though Taneb might have to invent a few more things to make that work.
18:48:31 <coppro> Taneb: why haven't you invented sex yet?
18:48:45 <coppro> 13:44:02 < shachaf> `? progress
18:49:34 <oerjan> DON'T TRY TO FILTHEN TANEB'S PURE INVENTIONS
18:49:46 <shachaf> not to be confused with congress, and especially not sexual congress
18:49:56 <shachaf> which Taneb would never have invented
18:50:07 <shachaf> he might have invented carnal embrace, though
18:51:18 <zzo38> Finally now I made it my Magic: the Gathering cards can be made in a SQL database too; this is the program to do the conversion: http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cards.sql
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19:18:28 <HackEgo> [U+01D5 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U WITH DIAERESIS AND MACRON]
19:31:32 <Taneb> coppro, I'm 100% asexual
19:32:05 <Taneb> And uncomfortable with a lot of things surrounding sexz
19:32:32 <Taneb> Apparently including correctly spelling the word
19:42:26 <HackEgo> U+FB45 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ef ad 85 UTF-16BE: fb45 Decimal: ﭅ \ () \ Uppercase: U+FB45 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
19:43:32 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps it exists elsewhere in unicode but they left the slot open for clarity? They did that for blackboard bold letters
19:46:29 <hppavilion[1]> Well I guess I might as well allow more correct mathematical symbols
19:46:29 <\oren\> it comes between פּ צּ like in פץצ .
19:46:51 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Can't tell what those letters are, they aren't in my (admittedly outdated) edition of neoletters
19:46:59 <\oren\> it would be ץ with a dagesh
19:47:04 <hppavilion[1]> I tried downloading the new version and hitting "instsall"
19:47:25 <hppavilion[1]> That's the only reason it seems that would be the case
19:47:32 <\oren\> try removing the current version and then reinstalling the new one
19:50:08 <Taneb> coppro, I believe "BDSM" was once listed as a Tanebvention, but I was really uncomfortable with that, hence the disclaimer
19:50:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Albedo]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45934 * Albedo * (+164) First version of user page created
19:51:33 <shachaf> Taneb: even if it doesn't involve sex?
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21:09:55 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a way, using the hosting provided by GoDaddy, to use a custom server software?
21:11:36 <HackEgo> BDSM definitely isn't a kind of LARP and Taneb definitely did not invent it.
21:11:59 <FireFly> it is also the bidirectional support mode
21:13:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45935 * Albedo * (+17587) Beeswax page created
21:15:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45936&oldid=45935 * Albedo * (+1) /* Arithmetic operations */ typo
21:16:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45937&oldid=45936 * Albedo * (-6) /* File related I/O */ layout
21:17:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45938&oldid=45937 * Albedo * (+6) /* File related I/O */
21:18:24 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: It is on my computer, through the router. The software used in this computer is Apache for HTTP, and custom software for gopher
21:18:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45939&oldid=45938 * Albedo * (+13) /* File related I/O */
21:18:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45940&oldid=45939 * Albedo * (-5) /* Write file to disk */
21:19:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45941&oldid=45940 * Albedo * (+28) /* External Resources */
21:19:49 <zzo38> Does this answer the question?
21:20:10 <myname> lol bidirectional support mode
21:20:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45942&oldid=45941 * Albedo * (-1) /* Example beeswax programs */
21:20:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45943&oldid=45942 * Albedo * (-7) /* Return n-th Fibonacci number */
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21:21:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45944&oldid=45943 * Albedo * (-1) /* File related I/O */ typo
21:25:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Albedo]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45945&oldid=45934 * Albedo * (+196)
21:28:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Albedo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45946&oldid=45945 * Albedo * (+168) Extended the user page
21:43:31 <hppavilion[1]> I again ask what I should add to MathLISP to make it, well, Mathy.
21:45:35 <hppavilion[1]> I'll publish the current docs soon in case anyone needs it
21:53:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Albedo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45947&oldid=45946 * Albedo * (+157)
21:56:12 <hppavilion[1]> Session example: http://pastebin.com/2CmcTEMwhttp://pastebin.com/2CmcTEMw
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22:18:12 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: I use a site hosted on AWS
22:18:25 <hppavilion[1]> I somehow just nearly flunked a test on the Order of Operations
22:18:43 <\oren\> I am accessing irc thru it right now
22:18:46 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm redoing first semester algebra over winter break because I bombed it in school, particularly when I stopped showing up to class)
22:19:32 <hppavilion[1]> And, of course, the "invisible parentheses" on fraction-form division (as my teacher put it)
22:19:47 <hppavilion[1]> I hate it when people use non-parentheses to group expressions
22:20:50 <hppavilion[1]> Is {5+2} the set containing only the number 7 or is 5+2, evaluated before anything around it? I mean, AFAIK that really doesn't matter in this case, but...
22:20:53 <\oren\> also remeber that sin xy is sin(x*y)
22:21:06 <\oren\> but sin x + y is sin(x) + y
22:21:46 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: They didn't even do that. They just did +/-/*\//** (including unary -, but only for numbers IIRC)
22:23:05 <\oren\> wouldn't PEMDAS be enough then?
22:23:19 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: The questions were, like, evaluate (xy+z)/z if x=3/7, y=-35, z=8. And that's one I got wrong.
22:24:09 <hppavilion[1]> Reading it now, I now realize it should be -7/8. I answered 7/8
22:24:24 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: PEMDAS is enough; I just have the defect of wanting to do everything in my head.
22:24:30 <\oren\> xy=-15, xy+z = 7, (xy+z)/8 = 7/8
22:25:06 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: It says the answer is supposed to be -7/8. Well, -0.88, but you get the point.
22:25:39 <hppavilion[1]> Oh joy. Now I have to read about numbers (also, deciding which set they belong to)
22:26:02 <\oren\> wirting it down like i did should help you catch any mistakes
22:26:09 <hppavilion[1]> Which I assume means "This is a real number, not a complex number" is what they're about to ask me to do
22:26:37 <\oren\> real numbers have imaginary part = 0
22:26:48 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I know, exactly. That's why the math gods are angered by that.
22:27:18 <hppavilion[1]> They're angered because they may or may not be about to tell me that real numbers are different from complexes (as opposed to being a subset)
22:27:57 <hppavilion[1]> It'd be nice if there was a standard system for naming sets of numbers
22:28:29 <hppavilion[1]> "comrationals", for example, would be of the form a+bi where a, b |< Q
22:29:16 <hppavilion[1]> I /also/ think there should also be a standard, unambiguous, logical ASCII (or more accurately, typable) system for describing math
22:29:24 <\oren\> dont you mean a,b (- Q
22:29:31 <hppavilion[1]> In the system I am now making up for that, |< is subset.
22:30:05 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: But if you use (-, that can easily be confused with a, (b*-Q)
22:31:14 <hppavilion[1]> |<, on the other hand, is entirely meaningless if you don't know the system. So it's ALSO good for math obfuscation xD
22:32:03 <\oren\> bah, I would prefer to just have ∈ on my kybard
22:32:44 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Me too. As such, you may be interested in my new wish-it-existed product: The Mathematician's Keyboard!
22:32:56 <hppavilion[1]> A keyboard that has all the mathematical symobls you could ever need!
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22:33:36 <hppavilion[1]> Complete with greek, set theory, formal logic, and matrices!
22:34:03 <hppavilion[1]> Actually, now that I think about it, I could easily write a program using PyHK combined with the operators I'm about to define that allows you to type symbols like that
22:34:15 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Would you be interested in that? Assuming that PyHK will work on your platform
22:35:24 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, you would hit shift-esc, then the key combination, then esc again, and it would automatically send this key combo to the OS:
22:35:47 <hppavilion[1]> Backspace*(length of key combination) followed by the symbol that you just requested.
22:37:03 <myname> hppavilion[1]: do you knpw apl keyboards?
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23:07:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45948&oldid=45872 * Albedo * (+14) /* B */ link to beeswax
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23:13:16 <\oren\> I'm working on a screenrc allowing the entry of math characters
23:14:09 <\oren\> you press ctrl-2, (, - to enter ∈ for example
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23:20:56 <FireFly> http://sheet.shiar.nl/digraphs here's some inspiration
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23:22:36 <\oren\> I think I'll start with just math symbols and greek
23:23:42 <FireFly> RFC-1345 is what vim uses for its digraphs too btw
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23:35:22 <b_jonas> um, doesn't emacs use control-k for compose?
23:35:57 <FireFly> Dunno. That's what vim uses at least (in insert mode)
23:36:00 <b_jonas> you're making a config for screen
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23:36:11 <b_jonas> FireFly: I might have confused it with that
23:36:35 <b_jonas> meanwhile, here's my keyboard layout and current plan for extension => http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/keymap
23:38:36 <\oren\> yeah making in in my screenrc means i don't need a different escape for every program
23:38:54 <\oren\> hell i could then use them in ed or cat
23:39:04 <FireFly> Wouldn't it make more sense to use an OS-wide compose key?
23:39:10 <FireFly> and not be restricted to terminals
23:39:34 <FireFly> xkb has it built-in and I think there's third-party things for Windows to add a compose key
23:39:46 <\oren\> meh this computer is in virginia, I can;t get to it except thru a terminal
23:42:15 <FireFly> and I guess the issue with adding the binding to your local computer is that you'd have to repeat it everywhere else where you want to access it from
23:47:09 <\oren\> Also I typically edit files locally on windows by running screen and nano under cygwin
00:10:23 <\oren\> eh, I think i've done enough for now. Eventually I'll do more, when i find a need to.
00:11:00 <\oren\> I'll make it a new project. PROJECT ASCIICODE
00:13:48 <\oren\> I've made note of some patterns, including capital RA, KA etc being katakana, ka, ba, etc being hiragana, and maybe i'll have CCcat be 猫 and CCdog be 犬 etc
00:14:14 <\oren\> for "chinese character cat"
00:15:12 <\oren\> noe of that is implemented yet, but muhuhahahaha
00:16:02 <\oren\> hmm but it would be more flexible if I did CcatC and CdogC
00:16:03 <pikhq> Why not use Chinese telegraph code?
00:16:19 <\oren\> because that's hard to remember
00:17:53 <pikhq> Now how do you intend to specify Chinese financial numerals?
00:18:23 <pikhq> And simplified vs. traditional?
00:18:48 <pikhq> "貳" Ct finance twoC vs. "贰" Cs finance twoC ?
00:18:50 <\oren\> these can be of indeifnite lengthmabe start with CS
00:19:04 <\oren\> pikhq: that would work, yeah
00:20:09 <pikhq> Oh, there's also Japanese financial numerals which aren't the same. :)
00:20:48 <pikhq> Chinese script hates encoders, basically.
00:28:12 <FireFly> I randomly remembered.. vim also has a option to make infix backspace be used for digraphs too (á la overstriking)
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00:53:56 <izabera> why is sourceforge offline again
00:54:46 <izabera> oh wait it's not and it's just one project
00:56:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ROOP]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45949 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+15911) I'm still finishing the implementation
00:59:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:-Dark-Phantom-]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45950&oldid=45170 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+39)
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01:10:27 <\oren\> ok, now I have irssi inside tmux so I can restart screen without affecitng it
01:13:35 * boily pokes \oren\ in the control codes
01:14:47 <izabera> did you know that fuse can create a directory with two files with the same name and without . and .. ?
01:15:52 <izabera> but it's only a readdir thing, dir/. and dir/.. are still resolved correctly
01:18:42 <Elronnd> \oren\: why not just run two screens?
01:21:20 <\oren\> i'm not smart enough to do that properly
01:21:41 <\oren\> but I know how to use tmux and screen
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01:35:15 * lifthrasiir feels great when they are correctly displayed in my terminal
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01:37:52 <\oren\> I'm partially following the digraphs supported by existing schemes, but using better options where possible. for example, a` rather than a! for À
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01:41:50 <izabera> `` printf '\303 - \303\203'
01:43:27 <izabera> why does that print so many characters before - ?
01:44:33 <izabera> that's probably HackEgo's fault
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01:46:38 <\oren\> a funtion is continous if ∀ε∃δ∀x |x-a|<δ ⇒ |f(x)-b|<ε
01:46:55 <hppavilion[1]> (the argument definitions for func is a bit of a hack, as is the body itself. But mostly the arguments)
01:47:14 <\oren\> a funtion is continous if ∀ε∃δ∀x |x-a|<δ ⇒ |f(x)-f(a)|<ε
01:47:24 <hppavilion[1]> (The problem with defining it in a more consistent way is that you'd pretty much have to have an infinite progression of functions quoting code, AFAIK)
01:47:52 <\oren\> hmm, I'mhaving problems remebering these definitions rather than typing them now
01:48:07 <hppavilion[1]> (It isn't quite consistent because... well, it's a template. That's how lisp works: it's almost 100% consitent, except templates)
01:50:17 <izabera> can you show the interpreter?
01:50:23 <hppavilion[1]> That defines a function called "plus" that takes two arguments and adds them.
01:50:35 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Not on IRC, of course. I'll github it I guess.
01:52:11 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It is, by no means, minimalistic; however, I don't think I've added any functions that can easily and efficiently be defined in terms of other builtins
01:53:18 <hppavilion[1]> (sure, one could make a FOR loop exponent for type (int, natural (including 0)), but it wouldn't be as good. Also, there are no looping constructs yet, unless you include recursion (which, I suppose, you should. See: Haskell))
01:54:41 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: https://github.com/ZodiacWorkingGroup/MathLISP
01:58:45 <\oren\> a funtion is continous if ∀a∀ε∃δ∀x |x-a|<δ ⇒ |f(x)-f(a)|<ε
01:59:54 <\oren\> iow the limit of f(x) as x approaches every point a, is f(a)
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02:29:55 <hppavilion[1]> What happens when you compose Placebo with Dunning-Kruger?
02:30:32 <hppavilion[1]> diagram, Figure 1.1, which shows the relationships of all the sets of
02:30:56 <hppavilion[1]> 1) That is not a venn diagram, that is a euler diagram
02:31:13 <hppavilion[1]> 2) *All* the sets of numbers? That's one impressive diagram
02:39:01 <hppavilion[1]> For example, does it cover {9, 23, 42, 69, 101413412413241324143i}?
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03:00:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OISC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45951&oldid=45754 * Oleg * (+89)
03:00:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cryptoleq]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45952 * Oleg * (+9) Created page with "Cryptoleq"
03:06:44 <oerjan> <\oren\> a funtion is continous if ∀ε∃δ∀x |x-a|<δ ⇒ |f(x)-f(a)|<ε <-- no, that's uniform continuity. you need the δ last. also a >0 bound on ε.
03:16:02 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: you should take the more advanced version of whatever course this is
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03:40:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45953&oldid=45944 * Albedo * (+189) /* Local/global I/O operations */ info about V instruction added. Was omitted by accident.
03:41:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45954&oldid=45953 * Albedo * (+16) /* Bitwise operations */ bitroll and bitshift instruction info updated
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04:33:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45955&oldid=45954 * Albedo * (-34) /* Write file to disk */ corrected version
05:22:05 <\oren\> "These dials for example, controls christmas"
05:22:30 <\oren\> c'mon randall, get a proofreader!
05:31:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45956&oldid=45955 * Albedo * (-2) /* Output numbers from 1 to 100 */ programm corrected
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05:46:42 <zzo38> Can you make a dc and TECO polyglot program?
05:47:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CASTLE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45957&oldid=45670 * Quintopia * (+7) /* Symmetry */ bugbugbugbug
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06:56:52 <izabera> i just registered in an online form to book tickets for a local cinema, and they sent me my plaintext password
06:58:51 <izabera> what do you think about it
07:04:50 <oerjan> a sign of bad programming
07:05:33 <oerjan> otoh it seems hard to actually do anything important with it, other than stealing your tickets.
07:06:08 <oerjan> (which could be interesting if they're fixed seating tickets...)
07:07:20 <oerjan> hm, well. i suppose if you've given them a card number...
07:07:32 <izabera> also people reuse passwords
07:08:35 <oerjan> well don't do that then *whistling innocently*
07:09:05 * oerjan has at least started including a site-specific part.
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07:52:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Seriously]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45958&oldid=45817 * Mego * (-4) changed profile link
07:53:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Seriously]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45959&oldid=45958 * Mego * (-4)
07:54:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Mego]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45960 * Mego * (+61) Created page with "I made [[Seriously]]. I'm only slightly regretting it so far."
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10:23:13 <izabera> http://security.stackexchange.com/a/108679
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12:22:54 <myname> beeswax actually looks nice, but it is underspecified imho
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16:08:08 <lambdabot> CYQB 231600Z 06011KT 5SM BR OVC004 00/M01 A3027 RMK SF8 CIG VRB 3-5 SLP254
16:08:23 <boily> oooh, the elusive double-naught!
16:08:46 <boily> . o O ( uuuuh... what's a CIG VRB 3-5 again? )
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16:45:16 <coppro> I don't know how to read any of that
16:47:35 <lambdabot> EGLL 231620Z AUTO 21009KT 9999 FEW047 10/06 Q1021 NOSIG
16:47:50 <fizzie> The elusive ten-degree Christmas.
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17:41:47 <boily> fizzie: flblblblblblblbl to you!
17:42:00 <lambdabot> CYCG 231700Z 35008KT 3SM -SN FEW009 BKN021 OVC042 M02/M03 A2951 RMK ST2SC4SC2 SLP013
17:43:23 <boily> coppro: chelloppro. report taken at 5:00pm UTC today, 8 kt north winds, 3 miles visibility, light snow, few clouds at 900', broken clouds at 2100', ceiling at 4200'.
17:44:37 <boily> it is currently -2 °C, dew point at -3. pressure for Calgary Airport is 29.51 inHg, pressure for sea level 1001.3 hPa.
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17:59:32 <coppro> oh I missed that you just did one
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19:04:31 <boily> you didn't see nothing at all. la la la ♪
19:04:35 <lambdabot> CYYC 231800Z 23003KT 40SM FEW180 BKN280 M11/M16 A2940 RMK AC1CI6 SLP033
19:04:47 <boily> oh, much more calgarylike. -11 °C.
19:05:48 <lambdabot> EDDL 231850Z 18006KT CAVOK 08/06 Q1027 NOSIG
19:05:56 <boily> Mellolvar. what's EDDL?
19:06:19 <Melvar> Düsseldorf. I think that’s the nearest one to here.
19:10:20 <izabera> not-so-expert-but-i-used-it-in-the-past is enough
19:10:59 <izabera> ok so i have two indipendent part that are libraries to build
19:11:21 <izabera> my code is gcc -fPIC -DSOMETHING $(INC) -c -o $@.o $@.c; gcc $@.o -o $@ -shared -Wl,-soname,$@
19:11:43 <izabera> so i wrote all: part1 part2
19:11:54 <izabera> and in both i wrote that gcc line
19:12:18 <izabera> i'm assuming this is not how i'm supposed to do it
19:12:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ditihala * New user account
19:14:10 <izabera> i'm very tempted to just forget about make and write it in bash
19:14:56 <myname> i do think you can do some wildcarding
19:17:21 <izabera> make is totally on topic here, right?
19:17:50 <myname> it forces you to do tabs
19:19:38 <boily> make is strangely on topic for this channel.
19:20:08 <izabera> iirc someone wrote a lisp in gnu make
19:21:20 <lambdabot> EGNT 231850Z 16007KT 120V190 9999 FEW020 06/02 Q1009
19:21:20 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I don't think something can be normally on-topic for this channel hth
19:21:33 <Taneb> I keep forgetting hor to read those
19:21:37 <hppavilion[1]> Pretty much everything on-topic here does so strangely.
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19:31:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Class Diseases]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45961 * Hppavilion1 * (+1967) Created Page
19:34:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Class Diseases]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45962&oldid=45961 * Hppavilion1 * (+79) /* Infection */ Finished a sentence
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19:40:54 <hppavilion[1]> So here's an interesting quirk of my implementation of MathLISP
19:41:36 <hppavilion[1]> When you define a variable, it is internally represented as defining that variable in env then returning the value (unimportantly) and env. All functions work by returning a return value and env
19:41:57 <hppavilion[1]> So (ASSGN "x" 5) assigns x to 5, but only for functions outside of it it seems
19:42:26 <hppavilion[1]> So (do (ASSGN "x" 5) (PRINT (x)) raises an error, because
19:42:52 <hppavilion[1]> So (do (ASSGN "x" 5) (PRINT (x))) raises an error, because x isn't defined in the second code thing
19:43:03 <hppavilion[1]> Note that do evaluates each of its arguments and that's it
19:43:44 <hppavilion[1]> I guess that that's basically scope like in many C-like languages, but it behaves very differently AFAICT
19:44:09 <hppavilion[1]> It's depth-based instead of breadth-based, if that makes sense
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19:46:09 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, I don't think that the (do...) thing will raise a syntax error, actually, due to the way I defined evaluating arguments
19:51:33 <hppavilion[1]> I'm still trying to think of a way to make LOLCODE II actually eso
20:00:11 <lambdabot> CYYB 231900Z 11016KT 15SM BKN005 OVC200 06/05 A2976 RMK SF7CC1 SLP091
20:05:24 <\oren\> the lake isn't even frozen! stupid santa, bring the snow already!
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20:29:30 <boily> hppavellon[1]. I was unnear my laptop.
20:30:01 <boily> he\\oren\! how dare you be at +6 °C?!?!???!!!one!!1!!!
20:30:53 <myname> it was like +10 here all day
20:38:11 <boily> \oren\: could you please adjust the width of 沈? it juts a little bit too much to the right.
20:39:18 <\oren\> oh crap youre right I'll fix it
20:39:41 <HackEgo> [U+6C88 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-6C88]
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20:55:22 <\oren\> ok, boily it's coreceted
20:55:57 <myname> http://bespokepasswords.com/
20:58:32 <\oren\> in addition I added 移衛益液演応往桜恩過賀快解格確額幹慣眼規義逆居許
20:59:44 <boily> \oren\: I wonder if the traditional version for 桜 is yourfontable...
21:06:17 <\oren\> I count eight horizontal lines, whick is on the edge but still doable
21:13:15 <HackEgo> [U+685C CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-685C]
21:13:43 <\oren\> it means cherry tree and is pronounced sakura
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22:27:03 <hppavilion[1]> The only one I've tested is MSP libraries, but I'm about to test out Python libraries
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22:31:34 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: what's "MathLISP"?
22:31:43 <b_jonas> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Search/MathLISP says not found
22:32:26 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Not an esolang, per se, unless you consider LISP eso-
22:33:06 <hppavilion[1]> It's a LISPy programming language I'm making for mathematicians and mathematics teachers, also made to have a formal mathematical language that's better than the one we have now (you know, 2+2=4)
22:34:51 <b_jonas> I don't consider LISP eso in general, although of course there can be eso LISPs.
22:35:18 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: is this an array programming language, that is, one where lots of operations automatically map through arrays?
22:36:16 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Still implementing library support; currently, python-defined libraries
22:37:06 <b_jonas> Not necessarily in the sense of matlab or those APL-likes where every variable stores an array, and scalars are arrays that have no axis, or two axis of size 1 each; but possibly like the K language where values are dynamically typed and may or may not be arrays.
22:38:21 <\oren\> I think it'll take me about an hour, and then I'll put up the fisrt version of my screenrc
22:38:21 <b_jonas> Mathematica is also an array language of the latter sense. I wonder if GAP counts as one though.
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22:38:48 <b_jonas> \oren\: in the meantime, any news about your font
22:44:36 <\oren\> I added 20 or so new chinese characters
22:45:29 <b_jonas> but you also said you started Korean characters, and I didn't see that in the preview page
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22:47:19 <zzo38> The Magic: the Gathering card called "Artificial Evolution" says the new creature type can't be Wall. This was due to old rules, but I think can still be important even in the new rules, even when none of the other cards in use have any special interactions with walls.
22:47:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: of course! eg. it still nerfs Artificial Evolution with Rolling Stones
22:48:34 <b_jonas> oh, you're saying when none of the other cards have any special interaction with walls? hmm
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22:49:25 <b_jonas> well, does it count if you have normal walls in play, and cards that care about creature types shared or such things?
22:49:56 <zzo38> I mean even if you don't have any normal walls in play either.
22:50:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: are Un-cards allowed?
22:50:44 <b_jonas> there are things that care about creature types of objects not in play
22:50:45 <zzo38> Even with no Un-cards
22:50:56 <zzo38> And even without other cards dealing with walls in other zones too
22:51:17 <\oren\> b_jonas: I'm still trying to get them to not look like crap
22:52:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm. well, it could matter if you start to exhaust all hundreds of creature types with a very elaborate construction, but that's hard to imagine
22:52:51 <b_jonas> hard to imagine that it matters that is
22:53:43 <b_jonas> Or maybe it could matter because it lets you target Artificial Evolution itself with an Artificial Evolution.
22:54:21 <b_jonas> it doesn't target, and it doesn't matter anyway because you can choose any card, even one that doesn't mention creature types.
22:54:52 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/screenrc.htm
22:54:58 <zzo38> Yes you can choose a spell/permanent even if it does not mention creature types. And I mean this can be important even when you aren't exhausing creature types
22:56:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: well, someone could have chosen Wall as a creature type for a previous effect.
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22:57:52 <b_jonas> Not necessarily for an Artificial Evolution, but for Conspiracy or Brass Herald etc,
22:58:22 <b_jonas> For Door of Destinies, say.
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22:59:08 <zzo38> No, it isn't using Conspiracy or Brass Herald etc either. I can show you the cards if you would want it
22:59:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: It needn't be Brass Herald, there are tens of cards with "choose a creature type" or ""chooses a creature type" etc
23:00:16 <b_jonas> or "creature type of your choice" even
23:00:47 <zzo38> No, none of the other cards involved ask anyone to choose a creature type.
23:02:42 <b_jonas> If no card involved (card that is in the game, or was or will be or could be in the game if players and randomness so chooses) mention "Wall" in the text explicitly, and nobody chooses Wall as a creature type (possibly in the future), then I don't see how it could matter.
23:02:51 <b_jonas> Other than by running out of creature types that is.
23:06:11 <oren> control-2, U, " -> Ű
23:07:21 <boily> oren: you may have lost your backslashes over there hth
23:08:31 <oren> boily: what backslashes?
23:08:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't see how it could matter. I was wondering if you could get a name collision between a token with creature type name and a card whose name contains the word "Wall", but that doesn't seem possible.
23:08:49 -!- oren has changed nick to \oren\.
23:09:14 <\oren\> stupid irc and LaTeX being opposites
23:09:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: I give up, how is it possible?
23:10:24 <zzo38> Opponent has Airdrop Condor and Force of Nature in play, and Artificial Evolution on stack targeting Airdrop Condor, and you have Fork in hand.
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23:16:46 <b_jonas> do you mean you Fork the Evolution, Evolve the first Evolution so it says "The new creature type can't be Elemental"?
23:16:58 <b_jonas> though I don't get why you need Force of Nature for that
23:17:28 <b_jonas> Oh, because Force of Nature is something the opponent would really love to sacrifice.
23:25:27 <hppavilion[1]> Programming language idea: Everything is defined in external libraries except for the import statement
23:26:27 <myname> what is the syntax of the libraries?
23:26:48 <boily> what resides at the Last Import? is it turtles all the way down?
23:31:22 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: the import statement should be defined in external libraries too, from an external library that is imported by some means other than the import statement, eg. inlucded as default for every program.
23:31:45 <b_jonas> (Like the libc, haskell prelude, or pascal base library.)
23:33:42 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Perhaps by default, it comes with a single one-use command called "i" that imports import
23:34:37 <myname> but how is the library written?
23:34:44 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: I don't see the point. Lots of programming languages import some base library by default. The three I listed aren't the only ones.
23:35:18 <b_jonas> Why would you need a special command for that? You could have a special declaration or switch for _not_ importing the base library if you wish, but that doesn't matter.
23:36:02 <hppavilion[1]> You don't write the basic libraries in the language; those are written in Python or C or whatever language is convenient
23:39:31 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes it is what I mean. It does not say that the old creature type can't be Wall.
23:39:33 <\oren\> hmm. would it be possible to make a music synthesizer program that outputs mp3 or other compressed audio directly, rather than pcm?
23:39:46 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: well, it's not hard to imagine a language that only has function calls built-in, and the primitives of unlambda in a library.
23:40:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: that's a very nice example, yes.
23:40:35 <b_jonas> As for walls, I always think of Mirror Wall, which got an oracle update after Wall stopped being special.
23:41:03 <b_jonas> I don't really play it because it's a sub-par card, it's almost always easier to just get a turtle that can attack rightaway, but it's still a very interesting concept.
23:41:12 <\oren\> if you did that, then, the compressed version would BE the original, so there would be no compression loss.
23:41:33 <b_jonas> though Mirror Wall is somewhat similar
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23:43:44 <zzo38> Another lossy format is Vorbis; I do not know much about how it works, in order to know much about such thing as directly synthesizing compressed audio
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23:45:24 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandoro do you have this where you live?
23:47:02 <b_jonas> Hmm. How do you spell "urza'swalk" and "power-Plantwalk", abilities that Traveler's Cloak can confer?
23:47:28 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know if you would spell like that or not, maybe add a space if you think it makes it more clearly
23:47:47 <b_jonas> "Urza's Walk"? that could be a card name
23:48:15 <zzo38> Yes, perhaps one that grants that landwalk ability as well as doing other things too
23:48:44 <b_jonas> maybe "Urza'a landwalk" and "Power-Plant landwalk" could work
23:48:49 <b_jonas> because an Urza's must be a land
23:49:04 <zzo38> Yes that could do too
23:51:04 <b_jonas> There's already more Urza's Un-cards than you can probably remember, so another one called Urza's Walk doesn't sound impossible.
23:51:38 <b_jonas> In an Un-set that has an Urza planeswalker
23:52:23 <b_jonas> Hmm… maybe Urza's walk should conver planeswalk too, which works on planes in the command zone rather than in play.
23:53:36 <hppavilion[1]> Whoo! Imports now 100% work in MathLISP! Hopefully!
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17:02:24 <oerjan> Gregor: merry christmas!
17:02:41 <Gregor> I was here all along, trust me.
17:02:47 <Gregor> Definitely didn't disappear for six months.
17:02:59 <oerjan> ...maybe not six months.
17:03:56 <Gregor> Maybe DEFINITELY not, since I didn't disappear at all!
17:04:13 <Gregor> I don't know why glogbot isn't automatically relogging in when that system reboots...
17:04:15 <oerjan> well technically you could be messaged.
17:04:36 <oerjan> the response time was a little high, though.
17:06:21 * oerjan suddenly realizes that "latency" contains "late"
17:07:29 <oerjan> apparently not related, though...
17:08:03 <ais523> Gregor: well it's a log bot not a relog bot
17:15:19 <boily> Grellogor! you're alive!
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17:59:03 <boily> time to star wars.
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19:21:51 <hppavilion[1]> I am now developing a fully-online integrated mathematics classroom for some reason
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19:38:24 <lambdabot> CYVR 241900Z 02004KT 15SM FEW008 SCT020 BKN041 BKN058 OVC075 04/03 A2966 RMK SC1SC2SC3SC1AC1 SLP045
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22:01:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pandora]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45992&oldid=20386 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) dead link
22:02:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ALPACA]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45993&oldid=37690 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) dead link
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23:00:37 <zzo38> Do you have other feature suggestion for AmigaMML/XISYNTH? The Redmine currently does not work so you cannot post in there.
23:05:27 <HackEgo> arothmorphise/arothmorphise ... antormo... antrohm... ant... oh bugger. This should go in the `misspellings of antrhrop... atnhro...' entry.
23:05:33 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 3h 36m 50s ago: When you get back from star warsing, tell me how you liked the plot twist
23:06:15 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, i guess we all knew there'd be a plot twist xD
23:06:40 <hppavilion[1]> So it isn't a spoiler to note that there is one...
23:06:59 <boily> it's a plot, it has a twist by definition.
23:07:23 <hppavilion[1]> But it's a good thing that I didn't say that one or more things that one or more characters did or was/were
23:07:28 <fizzie> TIL: the syntax for the for loop variant with an initial declaration is for ( declaration expression_opt ; expression_opt ) statement which looks (at least to me) wrong at first glance -- one doesn't immediately realize the ; between the first and second part is syntactially part of the declaration.
23:08:02 <fizzie> The "old-fashioned" variant is the obvious for ( expression_opt ; expression_opt ; expression_opt ) statement which is fine.
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23:38:37 <hppavilion[1]> How do I make a sprite, given a direction represented by a number between 0 and 360, move forward?
23:39:07 <hppavilion[1]> I tried `x, y += sin(direc), cos(direc)` which didn't work
00:12:08 <quintopia> question: are there any sequences that give themselves after n>2 applications of run-length encoding (but after no fewer applications)
00:13:21 <hppavilion[1]> Or is short 32 on systems where long is 64, and 16 where long is 32?
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00:58:45 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: A short is 16 or more bits.
00:58:55 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: In common implementations it's 16 unconditionally.
00:59:24 <pikhq> An int is also 16 or more bits, and in common implementations it's 32 unconditionally.
00:59:41 <pikhq> long is 32 or more bits, and generally 32 or 64.
00:59:47 <pikhq> And long long is always 64 or more.
01:00:01 <pikhq> (but in common implementations always 64)
01:04:49 <hppavilion[1]> I decided that, in the typemaker stdlib, bool is actually just a 1-bit unsigned integer
01:05:33 <hppavilion[1]> So you can (pretending this is valid syntax) do 5+True, and it equals 6
01:12:25 <fizzie> Put another way, typical (short, int, long, long long) tuplets are (16, 32, 32, 64) and (16, 32, 64, 64) -- the former for "32-bit systems" and 64-bit Windows, the latter for 64-bit non-Windows. "Small" systems (and old MS-DOS compilers) can be (16, 16, 32, 64) or possibly just (16, 16, 32) if they don't do long long.
01:16:06 <fizzie> Not that those are the only possibilities, just the common ones. I think I recall a Motorola DSP56k C implementation where it's (24, 24, 48, not supported).
01:21:00 <pikhq> I was pretty specifically just describing the standard + common implementation choices. But, yeah.
01:22:02 <pikhq> Though I know there's no point in doing so now, I'd *like* to see a DOS-targetting C compiler that outputs code in real mode that does (16, 32, 32, 64) and flat memory addressing.
01:22:24 <pikhq> It'd be pointless but humorous.
01:23:32 <fizzie> Yeah, I just liked to see them summarized like that.
01:24:22 <fizzie> The TI compiler for the TMS320C54x has (char, short, int, long, long long) set of (16, 16, 16, 32, kinda-sorta 40).
01:24:53 <pikhq> I suppose if you wanted to be *really* silly you could write a C compiler that runs in real mode while supporting EMS and similar for data.
01:24:58 <fizzie> I don't think it can do arithmetic for long long, but it uses that for some intrinsics that make use of the 40-bit accumulators.
01:26:29 <pikhq> Y'know, so you can do things on a IBM PC with an expansion board installed.
01:27:31 <hppavilion[1]> Are there Pope Numbers? By analogy to Cardinal Numbers?
01:32:05 <hppavilion[1]> And, of course, Priest Numbers? And Acolyte Numbers? And any-other-catholicy-word Numbers?
01:33:33 <hppavilion[1]> Such that this generalization's equivalent of the Cardinals
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01:45:47 <zzo38> Writing real mode DOS program isn't completely useless, I think. Some people might use it, possibly with FreeDOS or DOSBOX instead of MS-DOS, though.
01:46:47 <pikhq> zzo38: The main thing that makes it useless is the set of people who would use it have at least a 386, so are quite satisfied by DJGPP.
01:46:51 <zzo38> (But there are problems with DOSBOX; some things are not implemented properly, both hardware and software emulation have a few things wrong. I think one is CGA high-colour mode, which has never been used until recently anyways)
01:47:15 <pikhq> Yeah, DOSBOX has a few issues, largely because DOSBOX primarily targets games.
01:47:28 <pikhq> And so if it's not used by an old school DOS game they mostly don't care.
01:48:51 <zzo38> Then they need to make the version that they do care ("DOSBOX Professional Edition"?), such as by the forked version, that does it more.
01:49:02 <zzo38> But even some stuff having to do with game is not quite working properly
01:49:15 <zzo38> Or, could be useful to have with some games, such as quicksave/quickload features
01:49:31 <zzo38> I would want to have a debugger included too though
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01:59:24 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: really, phrases like "cardinal numbers", "ordinal numbers", "surreal numbers", and so forth are just mnemonics.
02:00:09 <tswett> There's this thing called the "number galaxy" which describes all of the different types of numbers there are.
02:00:18 <tswett> "Galaxy" is an overstatement; there are only 20 of them.
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02:01:01 <tswett> Oh no, he's gone. I can no longer lie to him.
02:02:16 <tswett> @tell hppavilion[1] I bet your sin() and cos() take their arguments in radians.
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02:15:49 <zzo38> What is your opinion of my idea of TVMIDI?
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03:26:30 <zzo38> A way to control such device as TV cable box or satellite box with MIDI
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03:39:15 <zzo38> Is it possible to tell 7-Zip to compress a file from stdin but give it a different name in the archive?
03:44:46 <zzo38> I get a E_NOINTERFACE error when I try.
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03:58:51 * Elronnd wonders when #esoteric turned into ##unixTechSupport
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06:46:28 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> I tried `x, y += sin(direc), cos(direc)` which didn't work <-- imo sin and cos are switched hth
06:51:25 <zzo38> I figured out how to do what I asked; I found a PHP program to do that so I used that.
06:54:50 <oerjan> @tell quintopia <quintopia> question: are there any sequences that give themselves after n>2 applications of run-length encoding (but after no fewer applications) <-- almost certainly...
06:55:50 <oerjan> @tell quintopia unless you mean _finite_ sequences - a well-known theorem of the look-and-say sequences is that 22 is the only non-exploding one.
06:59:02 <oerjan> > let ls = map (show . length <> take 1) . group in iterate ls "1"
06:59:05 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘[Char]’ with ‘Char’
06:59:05 <lambdabot> Expected type: [String] -> [String]
06:59:30 <oerjan> > let ls = concatMap (show . length <> take 1) . group in iterate ls "1"
06:59:33 <lambdabot> ["1","11","21","1211","111221","312211","13112221","1113213211","31131211131...
06:59:55 <oerjan> gah that's not long enough to see the repetition
07:00:47 * oerjan swats lambdabot for its short answers -----###
07:01:23 <zzo38> Look and say sequence is, each one is the run-length-encoding of the previous one. I have figured out how to prove that numbers greater than 3 does not occur and that "333" does not occur.
07:02:59 <oerjan> zzo38: then i suggest the next step is to show that every sequence will eventually have only numbers starting with 1 or 3, or only numbers starting with 2.
07:03:19 <oerjan> that's enough to tell you atoms ought to exist.
07:03:51 <oerjan> the rest is just checking every possible case, i think
07:06:27 <oerjan> ^ul ((::**)~^)((((:(((((((((((_)(9))(8))(7))(6))(5))(4))(3))(2))(1))(0)(!^))~*^^S!)(:a(~^)*~(()(~(~(:a~*):^))(a))~*^^)):^(()~)~**~^(:)~((a(~^)*~**)~a)~a(**~:((:)~(*)**)~a*~(^))**a(~*^^^!!^)***(~)~a(~a*^:)**a(:)**~^!!!a(~^)*~**)~a((, )S:^)**^):^
07:06:29 <fungot> 3, 13, 1113, 3113, 132113, 1113122113, 311311222113, 13211321322113, 1113122113121113222113, 31131122211311123113322113, 132113213221133112132123222113, 11131221131211132221232112111312111213322113, 31131122211311123113321112131221123113111231121123222113, 132113213221133112132123123112111311222112 ...out of time!
07:07:13 <oerjan> ^ul (()~^)((((:(((((((((((_)(9))(8))(7))(6))(5))(4))(3))(2))(1))(0)(!^))~*^^S!)(:a(~^)*~(()(~(~(:a~*):^))(a))~*^^)):^(()~)~**~^(:)~((a(~^)*~**)~a)~a(**~:((:)~(*)**)~a*~(^))**a(~*^^^!!^)***(~)~a(~a*^:)**a(:)**~^!!!a(~^)*~**)~a((, )S:^)**^):^
07:07:15 <fungot> 1, 11, 21, 1211, 111221, 312211, 13112221, 1113213211, 31131211131221, 13211311123113112211, 11131221133112132113212221, 3113112221232112111312211312113211, 1321132132111213122112311311222113111221131221, 11131221131211131231121113112221121321132132211331222113112211, 3113112221131112311311121321123113213 ...out of time!
07:07:19 <zzo38> OK, although I am not sure what the "atoms" are, that ought to exist?
07:08:29 <oerjan> zzo38: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look-and-say_sequence#Cosmological_Decay
07:16:37 <oerjan> @tell quintopia looking at the l&s sequence starting with 1, i'm pretty sure that the 1113122 prefix recurs every 3 steps and will grow to an infinite sequence that does the same.
07:19:21 <oerjan> > let ls = concatMap (show . length <> take 1) . group in let p = ls . ls . ls $ "1113122" ++ drop 7 p in p
07:19:23 <lambdabot> "111312211312111322212321121113121112131112132112311321322112111312212321121...
07:19:38 <oerjan> @tell quintopia > let ls = concatMap (show . length <> take 1) . group in let p = ls . ls . ls $ "1113122" ++ drop 7 p in p
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08:29:31 <oerjan> > let ls = show . length <> take 1 <=< group in iterate ls "1"
08:29:33 <lambdabot> ["1","11","21","1211","111221","312211","13112221","1113213211","31131211131...
08:30:31 <lambdabot> Monad m => (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> a -> m c
08:30:43 <oerjan> f <=< g = \x -> g x >>= f
08:30:43 <mauris_> it's kleisli arrow composition, or something!
08:31:01 <oerjan> <> is mappend, which is pointwise on functions
08:31:28 <mauris_> @pl (<=<) `asAppliedTo` unsafeCoerce
08:31:30 <myname> ah, <=< is like a monadic version of .
08:31:47 <mauris_> i thought that was a thing. ;_;
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08:33:28 <oerjan> > asAppliedTo succ 1 2
08:33:38 <oerjan> > asAppliedTo succ undefined 2
08:33:49 <oerjan> it's similar to asTypeOf
08:34:12 <myname> it just drops an argument?
08:34:30 <oerjan> yes, but forces the two arguments to be the same type.
08:34:49 <oerjan> > asAppliedTo succ 0.0 2
08:35:29 <oerjan> > asAppliedTo succ 'a' minBound
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08:39:51 <oerjan> basically it's a trick for resolving ambiguous types. these days most use the ScopedTypeVariables extension instead.
08:56:09 <oerjan> oh that's what the fixion is
09:05:13 * oerjan learns about the neutron electric dipole moment
09:09:05 <oerjan> interesting, it's unobserved but the upper bound is five orders of magnitude larger than the boring theoretical prediction. sounds within range in the future...
09:10:27 <oerjan> (boring because a larger one could help explain matter vs. antimatter)
09:23:47 <oerjan> "Valery Nesvizhevsky of the Institute Laue-Langevin and colleagues found that cold neutrons moving in a gravitational field do not move smoothly but jump from one height to another, as predicted by quantum theory."
09:25:44 <Taneb> A vague half-memory is telling me I was the person who first added asAppliedTo to lambdabot
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10:47:27 <oerjan> yeah, it pretty much says that gravitation _is_ quantum, we just don't know how yet
10:48:11 <coppro> how did they figure that?
10:48:47 <oerjan> i don't know, it's from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultracold_neutrons#Observation_of_the_gravitational_interactions_of_the_neutron
10:50:11 <oerjan> there's a reference but it's not linked properly.
10:52:20 <oerjan> i found it while wikiwalking from today's xkcd.
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12:37:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RFOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45994&oldid=34003 * LegionMammal978 * (+1) /* Explanation (if ever were one needed) */
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13:59:36 <trn> Merry Christmas guys
14:58:27 <Taneb> I wrote this for my uni's CS society: https://twitter.com/HackSoc/status/680315314941366272
15:05:16 <Taneb> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>[>+>+<<-]>+>++++++++.<.++.-->+++.[->+>+<<]>++++++++++++++.++++++.-------.----->++.<<<.>>.
15:11:27 <fizzie> I just watched the Queen's Christmas Message for the first time.
15:11:37 <fizzie> Would it be impolite to say it was just a tiny bit boring?
15:14:00 <Taneb> It's one of those capital-T Traditions
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16:10:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pig]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45995&oldid=45861 * LegionMammal978 * (-90) /* Interpreter */
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16:24:28 <Sgeo|Hell> Apartment being renovated. Stuck at dad and step-mom house. I may have frowned at her when I saw her at the airport, she's pissed off. I wasn't expecting to see her, dad had previously said he didn't think she'd wake up early to meet me after I indicated I'd rather avoid seeing her
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16:25:13 <boily> MERRY ESOTERICHRISTMAS!
16:25:42 <Sgeo|Hell> Merry coming back to the USA to a nightmare mas
16:26:22 <oerjan> bohily. merreux juvidad!
16:29:03 <Taneb> Sgeo|Hell, next year if you can pretend to be a university student you can come to my parents' instead
16:30:39 <Sgeo|Hell> I just want to hear from someone objective I think. And also independence. That would be nice.
16:31:24 <boily> Sgeo|Hello. how many brimstone pits out of ten would you rate your Hell?
16:31:37 <oerjan> i don't know how to be objective about such things
16:36:02 * oerjan has never quite noticed whether Sgeo|Hell's family celebrates christmas or not
16:36:31 <oerjan> s/noticed/got quite clear on/
16:36:53 <oerjan> also, i'm not sure whether that would make it better or worse.
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16:40:33 * oerjan is suddenly reminded of one of his mother's memorable statements, which translates to approximately "You ought to be able to have fun with people you don't like."
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16:42:18 <boily> Sgeo pinged out. are they still alive?
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16:42:58 <boily> oerjan: we're going to be celebrating christmas here at my parent's house. I don't know how many people will come, and I'll most certainly not know them all.
16:48:22 <oerjan> any crazy aunts or uncles
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16:52:22 <Sgeo|Phone> Family is Jewish, no Christmas celebrations. Also, webchat on phone is annoying, I think phone swaps out web pages frequently, hence my ping out
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16:54:05 <boily> oerjan: more like cousins with creative backstories.
16:57:21 <oerjan> now i want to find that old "jiddishkeit" test i once read...
16:59:06 <oerjan> i think it was back on usenet and i cannot find any trace on it. except i recall there was one question that had question options ranging to "hannukah bush" and "christmas tree"
17:00:22 * oerjan also noticed hannukah was early this year
17:00:33 <boily> is it some kind of geek code test?
17:01:40 <zzo38> Christmas is not just for Christians, although it is where the name comes from. It is a national holiday too.
17:02:20 <oerjan> boily: ooh adding geek code i found it http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/98/Apr/yiddishkeit.html
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17:06:42 * oerjan recalls having a .sig file
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17:37:47 <boily> TIL there are Yemenite Reconstructionists.
17:40:19 <oerjan> i was wondering about that one
17:42:30 <boily> do you have multiples wives and/or husbands and/or fungots?
17:42:30 <fungot> boily: that is good to remove).
17:42:44 <fungot> boily: to a max of 3 digits, i think that's actually a meme on a forum about 15 minutes to encounter an error?
17:43:08 <fungot> boily: some demos at fnord were just some interesting ideas, but it would work much better then
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19:17:01 <zzo38> Do you still have the .sig file?
19:24:28 <zzo38> I wanted to run my own NNTP server in order to invent Unusenet; all of the group names must start with "un" and then optionally a number and then a dot, and then the rest is in RDN format. If the number is included, it is used to specify how to find the primary server; if no number is specified then it means the primary server is unspecified.
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19:40:31 <zzo38> This is a Un-card suggested by my brother: In A Band With Others {1W} Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant creature ;; Whenever enchanted creature attacks as part of a band containing additional creatures, its controller must sing a song during the entire duration of the attack. Combat damage is not dealt until song is complete.
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19:46:32 <oerjan> zzo38: i have some old .sig files concatenated in .sig.old
19:48:08 <boily> hezzo38. you have a brother?
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19:59:17 <lambdabot> KGRR 251953Z 32006KT 10SM FEW028 SCT250 08/M01 A3027 RMK AO2 SLP255 T00781011
20:00:00 <tswett> Remind me what SLP255 means?
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20:08:46 <zzo38> Yes I have brother
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23:25:57 <deltab> tswett: current barometric pressure extrapolated to sea level is 1025.5 hPa
23:26:16 <tswett> Ah, right. Sea-level pressure.
23:38:21 <hppavilion[1]> deltab: Are you a bot? That message looked bery botty
23:39:28 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Here's an idea for a language. A full, TC-with-IO-and-shit language. Based entirely on matched brackets (not necessarily all parentheses)
23:39:57 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: ey was answering my question.
23:40:00 <hppavilion[1]> Even better, a full-blown mathematical logic/calculus/whatever
23:40:16 <tswett> "What does SLP255 mean?" "It means current barometric pressure extrapolated to sea level is 1025.5 hPa."
23:41:01 <hppavilion[1]> I wasn't logged in until the response, which looked like it was autofetched and formatted into a pre-made message
23:41:27 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: What do you think of the Bracket Logic idea?
23:44:59 <hppavilion[1]> There's probably be a preprocessor that lets you generate strings
23:46:31 <tswett> Well... sounds a lot like Lisp or something.
23:46:46 <tswett> But, y'know, without the things other than parentheses.
23:47:57 <tswett> Anyway, here's an idea.
23:48:16 <Taneb> I am not sure how, but I've ended up in an argument in another channel about whether Unicode adding emoji is a bad thing or not
23:48:21 <Taneb> (I'm on the "not" side)
23:48:28 <tswett> Take the Iota "i" operator.
23:48:56 <tswett> (abc...) means (i a b c ...).
23:48:57 * hppavilion[1] robs the Museum of Eso and takes the Iota "i" operator
23:49:23 <tswett> So, for example, ((()())(()())(()())) means (i (i i i) (i i i) (i i i)).
23:50:44 <hppavilion[1]> That works, but I was thinking of a more parenthesis-rich language
23:51:12 <tswett> Like... more than 100% parentheses?
23:51:17 <hppavilion[1]> (...), [...], {...}, <...>, (*...*), [|...|], etc. etc. etc.
23:51:34 <hppavilion[1]> It could probably be reduced to pure parentheses, but I would avoid that
23:51:46 <hppavilion[1]> And I'd want to try to make it something new, instead of just OISP
23:52:31 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, I guess that's looking for a little much, as I'm not a real mathematician yet xD
23:52:32 <tswett> Well, make it so that () uses the S operator, [] uses the K operator, and {} uses the I operator.
23:52:45 <tswett> Not to be confused with the Iota "i" operator.
23:53:05 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: But that's not "new", that's just combinatory logic with a slightly new (and, admittedly, probably better) syntax
23:53:54 <hppavilion[1]> (You should write a short paper on []=S, {}=K combinatory logic. See if we can get it adopted into common use.)
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23:54:18 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: My initial thought was to make {}=0, {{}}=1, etc.
23:54:30 <hppavilion[1]> But then I realized that that's not as much fun as what I /could/ do
23:54:54 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make a highly-extensible logic of some sort based entirely around matched brackets. THAT is my goal.
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00:28:07 <izabera> cause causes effect, effect doesn't effect cause
00:31:07 <Tat-Tvam-Asi> izabera> but are they different?.. are they two object different? or are they onlyone
00:32:17 <myname> cause is the reason an effect occurs
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01:17:45 <HackEgo> A photograph is a device for creating photograms.
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03:54:20 <Sgeo> At least I'm on my computer again
04:52:06 <zzo38> How would characters of the level20.tex to compare with colors of mana of Magic: the Gathering?
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05:04:24 <zzo38> I don't know the problem
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05:04:39 <hppavilion[wc]> In other news, there's a new data type I'd like to see languages implementing, and thus will be including in the TypeMaker/TypeFactory/Factory stdlib most likely
05:05:43 <hppavilion[wc]> Basically, a fuzz of bitwidth w is equal to, with the unsigned integer n that its encoding represents, n/2**w
05:06:06 <hppavilion[wc]> So basically, is is used for representing values in fuzzy logic or members of fuzzy sets
05:11:44 <zzo38> Is that similar to the numeric data type in Kvikkalkul?
05:15:10 <zzo38> In Kvikkalkul it is signed with one's complement, although it seems similar.
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05:45:51 <hppavilion[wc]> The <fuzzy> type has a minimum value of 0 and a maximum of 1; essentially, it's fixed point with the decimal point at the very beginning
05:46:34 <hppavilion[wc]> On a completetly unrelated note, I need detailed (but understandable) informtion on the exact behavior of Floating Point on machines for my language
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06:28:01 <Sgeo> @tell hppavilion[wc] http://www.h-schmidt.net/FloatConverter/IEEE754.html
06:31:27 <Sgeo> I probably should have tried to learn Hebrew BEFORE my trip to Israel
06:31:56 <shachaf> The first time I showed up there I didn't speak any Hebrew.
06:35:32 <Sgeo> Merry Christmas!
06:50:44 <coppro> the official version is 6.c (Christmas)
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06:55:33 <Elronnd> Ugh, but my OS's pkg repos haven't upgraded yet
07:06:21 <coppro> Well, perl 6 itself was released
07:06:42 <coppro> Rakudo also had a release, but it doesn't claim to implent Perl 6 100% correctly.
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09:20:09 <oerjan> <hppavilion[wc]> Basically, a fuzz of bitwidth w is equal to, with the unsigned integer n that its encoding represents, n/2**w <-- i think that doesn't include 1, which may be a bit awkward. also, i'd call that a probability.
09:20:22 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: But n/2**w isn't quite doing that
09:20:52 <zzo38> (Also, I already said it isn't the same; the type in kvikkalkul is signed and yours is unsigned so that is already different)
09:21:02 <zzo38> The same problem oerjan mentioned
09:21:41 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, in addition, it's nothing like kvikkalkul's numeric IIRC
09:22:04 <zzo38> Something such as n/(2**w+1) has the correct range but may result with strange calculations.
09:23:19 <oerjan> i think conflating 0 and 1 is inevitable if you have 0 bits
09:24:00 <zzo38> I do mean n/(2**w+1) but it might make multiplication more difficult?
09:24:23 <oerjan> zzo38: no, you do mean -
09:24:54 <hppavilion[1]> So the `void fuzz` type is equal to all real numbers. And complex ones, probably
09:25:31 <oerjan> just call it the tao. which is incidentally also equal to tau.
09:25:35 <hppavilion[1]> Because, from the standpoint of what happens when you graph it, 0/0 is equal to all possible slopes
09:25:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: In my MathLISP math.constants library I included pi, tau, and pau
09:26:15 <hppavilion[1]> (and e and stuff, of course. But that's not really important)
09:26:32 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to propose we stop using the constant "e" and start using "j"
09:28:35 <hppavilion[1]> because k is the pos('e')*12%25+1th letter of the alphabet
09:29:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: j is already taken by the engineers as a synonym for i.
09:29:58 <hppavilion[1]> Jesus, mathematicians should probably speak Mandarin
09:30:01 <oerjan> well, current, but i think that's capitalized.
09:30:39 <oerjan> I FAIL TO SEE THE PROBLEM
09:31:17 <hppavilion[1]> Would've been funnIer If you capItalIzed everythIng /except/ "I" in that sentence
09:33:04 <oerjan> <Sgeo> I probably should have tried to learn Hebrew BEFORE my trip to Israel <-- i hear it takes 10 years to get proficient enough to read a newspaper, or something like that.
09:36:11 <shachaf> oerjan: took me less than that hth
09:36:15 <oerjan> mandarin/hebrew deathmatch: which has the worst writing system?
09:36:28 <oerjan> shachaf: DON'T RUIN SCIENCE WITH YOUR FACTS
09:36:39 <shachaf> hebrew's writing system is pretty simple
09:37:34 <oerjan> in mandarin, the writing tells you more than the pronunciation does. in hebrew, less.
09:38:08 <shachaf> if you're confused about a word you can look it up letter by letter in a dictionary
09:38:36 <oerjan> that doesn't help when you're confused about which grammatical form it is, and they're written the same.
09:38:50 <oerjan> (of course mandarin cheats by not having grammatical forms)
09:39:49 <shachaf> i guess it is kind of complicated sometimes
09:40:08 <shachaf> do you have an example of the sort of thing you mean twh
09:40:35 <oerjan> all i know is that most of the inflections are in the vowels, which are not written hth
09:40:51 <oerjan> (what, you expect me to know hebrew? or mandarin for that matter.)
09:42:18 <shachaf> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ktiv_hasar_niqqud yo
09:48:39 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1],
09:48:58 <Sgeo> http://www.h-schmidt.net/FloatConverter/IEEE754.html
09:49:45 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], but in parents' house, with no easy access to a shower, and completely unable to execute my old routine
09:49:57 <Sgeo> And the constant possibility of seeing my step-mom
09:50:14 <Sgeo> So I don't feel back. I feel like I just left a pleasant vacation and into an unpleasant one
09:51:06 <hppavilion[1]> I got the world renderer working (well, one of them. There'll be two: A text-based one and a super-leet gzip'd JSON one)
09:52:11 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I do mean - but I am tired at this time and make mistakes
09:52:40 <zzo38> Sometimes I make a lot of mistakes. I certainly do mean - but sometimes I type something else by mistake
09:55:35 <oerjan> shachaf: ok i guess mandarin wins, then.
09:56:10 <shachaf> a chinese friend told me i should learn mandarin tdnh
09:56:49 <myname> shachaf: ask him about the sesame credit
09:57:13 <myname> i am curious about it being the stuff youtube said
09:57:47 <shachaf> i wonder how gendered it is
09:58:05 <shachaf> maybe i should just learn finnish
10:00:00 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: From my year and a half of after school mandarin, I can tell you they beat english by having a gender-neutral pronoun. Really, ONLY a gender neutral pronoun.
10:00:38 <hppavilion[1]> To angelicize it, Tah shir wah'd mae-mae means "(s)he is my little sister"
10:01:03 <hppavilion[1]> So it's also better in that there isn't a special possessive for yourself, it's just me's
10:01:39 <myname> well, being better than english is not that hard
10:01:58 <hppavilion[1]> I should invent, and then learn, a spoken language based on Combinatory Logic
10:02:36 <hppavilion[1]> myname: True. But "being better than english" is still a pretty big step in being a not-entirely-shit language
10:03:09 <hppavilion[1]> How would you say "she kicked the bucket" in Combinese?
10:03:38 <hppavilion[1]> (Spoken language based on Semi-Thue Systems, or Turing Machines. Lulz.)
10:03:50 <myname> i actually like french way more than english. i nearly don't speak a word in it, though
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10:04:10 <hppavilion[1]> "From now on, when I use the string 'horse' it is to be interpretted as 'HEIL SATAN'"
10:04:55 <myname> oh look, that HEIL SATAN broke a leg
10:05:21 <HackEgo> sat-buddhi: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
10:05:40 <myname> why are there so for relcomes these days?
10:05:41 <hppavilion[1]> My Little HEIL SATAN, My Little HEIL SATAN, ah-ah-ah-ah...
10:06:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: stop that, i'm trying to unconfuse sat-buddhi about what this channel is about
10:06:26 <myname> pony isn't the same as horse
10:06:41 <myname> oerjan: it's about nerds
10:06:45 <hppavilion[1]> Note that the Semi-Thue System language is based on meaning rather than on literal representation
10:07:34 <oerjan> myname: also, it's because of the relcome haters
10:08:25 <oerjan> with their powerful frowns
10:08:30 <hppavilion[1]> Would it be acceptable to document esoteric non-programming languages on the wiki?
10:08:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm gonna make an executive decision: no.
10:09:02 <hppavilion[1]> For example, a language designed to be spoken or a markup language
10:09:18 <oerjan> well, for spoken. markup could pass.
10:09:43 <oerjan> there's afaik a conlang community.
10:09:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Dammit, now we need a sister wiki for spoken languages xD
10:09:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But they don't have a beautiful wiki like we do
10:10:00 <oerjan> (i used to subscribe to their list.)
10:10:14 <hppavilion[1]> Also, what if it was a spoken language that is deeply rooted in CS?
10:10:25 <hppavilion[1]> For example, the aforementioned Combinatory Logic Spoken Language
10:10:31 <myname> i guess the conlang wiki is not intended for fun stuff?
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10:12:53 <hppavilion[1]> Technically, it's called an "esolang", not an "esoproglang", so...
10:13:05 * oerjan spots wikia and recoils
10:13:31 <hppavilion[1]> Not to mention that any spoken language can, in theory, be understood by a computer
10:14:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: One could argue that that technically makes any language to which a meaning can be assigned a programming language
10:15:03 <myname> i am not sure if arguing is the best thing you can do here
10:15:17 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: stop pouring oil on our slopes
10:15:24 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, the only language to which meaning /can't/ be assigned is a single-string language
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10:57:52 <myname> wait, what? you can use the 1/2 sign in perl6 to get a 0.5?
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12:24:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45996&oldid=45664 * LegionMammal978 * (+24)
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13:40:05 <helyx> !zjoust helyx_FightAndFlight (>)*8+(<)*7 ((-)*13>(+)*13>)*4(([-{([+{[-]}])%8}])%4>)*21
13:40:06 <zemhill> helyx.helyx_FightAndFlight: points -14.14, score 11.08, rank 47/47
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13:41:02 <zemhill> oerjan.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
13:41:18 <oerjan> i guess it's not pessimal
13:41:21 <zemhill> oerjan.test: points -33.14, score 3.04, rank 47/47 (--)
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13:57:06 <boily> fungot: ghuuuuuurgh.
13:57:06 <fungot> boily: write is a function of 1 argument. what is tlo? or is that death?
13:57:40 <boily> fungot: write is a function of one argument. what's a tlo? a Three Letter Optimisation? death is too much tourtière.
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14:15:12 <arararara> in what language shall thou spell to bring freebsd to work? >inb4 enochian or brainfuck
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14:24:04 <HackEgo> A program is an image created by means of prography.
14:51:22 <HackEgo> lie bracket/Politicians try to stay within the lie bracket: Not so many lies that voters cannot stand it, but not so few that they think you have nothing to give them.
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19:12:52 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/1\*1
19:13:06 <boily> @tell mroman I mapole you.
19:13:35 <boily> @tell mroman (with great force and momentum, might I add.)
19:13:41 <boily> @tell mroman (tsé.)
19:16:32 <HackEgo> page/The smallest floating-point number is known as pages. Fungot discovered it.
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20:15:49 <hppavilion[1]> I just had an amazing idea for an improved legal system
20:16:52 <hppavilion[1]> Consider the following: Formal logic is, largely, based on assumptions called "axioms" that are turned into "theorems" through "proofs"- you take the axioms and laws, put them together, and you get something that must be true
20:17:54 <hppavilion[1]> For example, if you have the axioms T->a, a->b and the law of syllogism, you can derive that T->b, and therefor b.
20:18:22 <hppavilion[1]> In law, we have "higher law" which is a base set of rules that it is against the rules to break.
20:18:51 <hppavilion[1]> We also have "[lower] laws", which are also rules that you can't break, but aren't assumed at the beginning necessarily
20:19:29 <hppavilion[1]> In a way, axioms correspond to higher laws and theorems to lower laws
20:19:49 <hppavilion[1]> I am going to call this the Jefferson-Howard Correspondence, just because it sounds funny
20:20:21 <hppavilion[1]> However, one (though not the necessarily the only) major thing is different about the way logic and laws work is this:
20:21:31 <hppavilion[1]> In normal formal logic, theorems are derived from axioms. In "legal logic", which is what I'm calling the formalization of law, theorems come out of thin air and apply if and only if they do not contradict with the axioms
20:23:21 <hppavilion[1]> So in Legal Logic (which might already be a thing, but I doubt it), from the axiom set `A={a}` one can derive the thorem `b` because `~b /<< A` (where ~ is logical NOT and /<< is IS NOT AN ITEM OF)
20:23:55 <hppavilion[1]> Which leads to lots of issues, because you can pretty much derive anything
20:24:07 <hppavilion[1]> Which leads to my idea for an improved legal system
20:24:51 <hppavilion[1]> What if, instead of having higher law and lower law which higher law must not contradict, we had a (larger) set of higher law axioms, and any lower law established must be derived from these axioms
20:27:02 <hppavilion[1]> There would, of course, be a process to add higher law, but it would take much longer and be more difficult, and would include a 5-year period in which government-employed mathematicians must test it for consistency with the new axiom (not really sure how consistency works, but if it's possible to prove consistency, that would pretty much be the goal), and at the end of which it must be voted on by the population.
20:28:09 <hppavilion[1]> The constitution of this theoretical nation would, of course, include all axioms both in english (though this would have no real legal standing) and in a Formal Logic
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20:32:49 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: see also my thesis "The propositional nomic"
20:33:01 <coppro> it's in the agora archives somewhere
20:36:11 <hppavilion[1]> By syllogism, one can derive the Curry-Jefferson correspondence, and thus prove that all Computer Scientists are really just lawyers who type a random mix of symbols
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20:44:14 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: ⊼ is good for NAND hth, though I think that the just-now made up symbol !∧, ~∧, or ¬∧ is the best IMHO, because it expresses that it is "NOT AND"
20:45:18 <hppavilion[1]> Which one you use depends on which symbol you use for NOT, of course, though you could certainly use a different prefix to the operator for clarity (e.g. ¬ for NOT but ~∧ for AND, such as to more clearly distinguish them)
20:46:35 <hppavilion[1]> Use of | for NAND is just confusing for computer scientists. My system only requires that you memorize the symbols for AND, OR, and the three possibilities for NOT
20:48:24 <hppavilion[1]> And XOR, I suppose. ⊻ works for XOR, but if it is the only modified AND or OR used in the expression, it gets confusing due to line location
20:49:54 <hppavilion[1]> Also, of course, ->, which the inverse for could probably be written as any of -/>, ~->, !->, ¬->, or even ~>
20:52:57 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: In any good game of Nomic, `|{p|(p ∈ P) ∧ A(p)}| = i` hth
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21:07:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RFOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45997&oldid=45994 * 78.52.138.216 * (-3) /* Example Code */
21:08:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RFOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45998&oldid=45997 * 78.52.138.216 * (-1) cleanup
21:16:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Subskin]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45999&oldid=20080 * 78.52.138.216 * (+8) /* Examples */
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23:12:58 <zzo38> Consecrated Sphinx, Notion Thief, Donate on Notion Thief, Chromatic Sphere, Krosan Grip on Chromatic Sphere, and then activate Chromatic Sphere in response. It is now difficult for opponent to win at this game.
23:32:52 <zzo38> If you have a complex Bernstein polynomial f(z) and then you want to draw the curve bounded by: (f(z)+i|f'(z)|/f'(z)) and (f(z)-i|f'(z)|/f'(z)) then can it be optimized?
23:39:25 <Sgeo> http://www.ginostuscany.com/
23:39:45 <Sgeo> How does this manage to be half decent (not fully decent though) when it's made by http://www.somelikeithotproductions.com/
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23:46:11 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], did my floating point link help?
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23:56:31 <hppavilion[1]> Given two points represented as 2-tuples a and b, how can I calculate a direction r (in degrees) such that an entity centered at a facing in direction r is pointing towards point b?
23:57:54 <Sgeo> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atan2
23:59:19 <Sgeo> Oh, that's traditionally radians, so * 180/PI
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00:12:47 <zzo38> Is the people who invented TECO Unitarian Universalist?
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00:45:09 <HackEgo> danddreclist 73: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
00:46:53 <shachaf> mauris: Do you want to s/nooodl/mauris/ danddreclist?
00:47:21 <mauris> you can s/nooodl // it, hth
00:47:30 <shachaf> you can do it yourself hth
00:50:16 <zzo38> Yes, you could edit it by yourself instead according to how you would want your name in there or not, but the URL and filename should not be adjusted because the current one is correct.
00:54:28 <zzo38> I also want to know in case you would know even, or someone else, comparing character in the level20.tex (including the one with no character sheet given) with colors of mana of Magic: the Gathering cards. Do you know?
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01:02:21 <izabera> https://www.joyent.com/ someone explain me why both bare metal and vm score 1/4 on networking but triton scores 1
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01:09:58 <izabera> they're explaining it but that table is totally misleading <.<
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02:29:56 <Sgeo> "I try never to underestimate the pathological nature of C/C++. Then again, this particular case might be because I spent so long dealing with bools that were four bytes. Or two bytes and stored as 0 / !0 rather than 0 / 1."
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02:44:31 <HackEgo> atm/An ATM is when you're withdrawing money right now at a machine that will steal your relevant info.
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03:30:44 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: I think I'll implement an online semi-automated Nomic based on your "Propositional Nomic"
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03:46:03 <HackEgo> ocean/The Pacific Ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The Atlantic Ocean is less cool than its giant underwater mountain range. The Arctic Ocean is cold. The Indian Ocean is full of typhoons and non-Eurocentric shipping.
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12:30:08 <Sgeo> Did I mention Robozzle has a JS version now?
12:30:13 <Sgeo> That's likely to become the main version?
12:30:19 <Sgeo> http://www.robozzle.com/beta/
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12:44:25 <myname> doesn't it have a js version like years?
12:50:36 <Sgeo> myname, a terrible one
12:51:10 <myname> imho, js implies terrible
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12:56:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagony]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46000 * Flawr * (+656) Created page with "'''Javagony''' is an OOP programming language derived from Java. The only differences to Java are that following statements are ''not'' available in Javagony: for (){} if (..."
13:00:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46001&oldid=46000 * Flawr * (+364)
13:02:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46002&oldid=46001 * Flawr * (+1)
13:02:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46003&oldid=46002 * Flawr * (+3)
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13:35:12 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> fungot: write is a function of one argument. what's a tlo? a Three Letter Optimisation? death is too much tourtière. <-- actually death is having to fix wikipedia and wiktionary's inconsistent etymologies of tourtière hth
13:35:12 <fungot> oerjan: where should i put there :) i want the standard i/ o
13:36:24 * oerjan is slightly disturbed that there are edits to his wiktionary account that he cannot understand how he has made
13:37:07 <oerjan> i think the merging of global accounts went slightly wrong, and _also_ something fishy happened back in 2007.
13:38:24 <oerjan> @tell boily also death is having to paste è because his keyboard refuses to recognize the obvious keypresses
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13:39:57 <oerjan> on the bright side, if there _was_ another wikt:user:oerjan back in 2007, he's not done anything since.
13:42:44 <oerjan> @tell boily oh wait, i was pressing the wrong key
13:43:15 <oerjan> @tell boily still doesn't work in the browser, though.
13:44:35 <oerjan> @ask boily what does (tsé.) mean
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14:20:13 <izabera> how do i check if a function supports a flag that's only available in a few versions of linux?
14:33:14 <ais523> izabera: is the function a system call? most will return EINVAL if they don't understand an argument
14:33:18 <ais523> so you could try it and see what happens
14:34:12 <ais523> (there's also ENOSYS, for when it's the function itself that isn't understood)
14:34:24 <ais523> (this generally only happens if running very new syscalls)
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15:19:20 <ais523> ooh, Perl 6 has been released
15:19:42 <ais523> given that NetHack 3.6.0 and Duke Nukem Forever were also released recentlyish
15:19:51 <ais523> this means that we're going to need a new metaphor for vaporware
15:21:45 * APic wonders whether GNU/Hurd will become stable soon too ;)
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15:22:19 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, though "vaporware" is still fine as a name.
15:22:42 <b_jonas> I use "cbvapor" as the codename for my eventual rewrite of the cbstream bot.
15:22:49 <ais523> GNU/Hurd does actually work IIRC, if you have a sufficiently specific configuration
15:23:13 <b_jonas> Oh, and wait, gimp has a development release from the new branch, have you seen that?
15:23:22 <b_jonas> So we're in the future or an alternate timeline or something
15:23:38 <b_jonas> Inkscape has released a stable release recently.
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15:24:30 <ais523> I don't use gimp or inkscape a whole lot, not because they're bad, just because I haven't needed to
15:24:32 <b_jonas> Oh, and ImageMagick is seriously working on a new branch where they have impossible goals, even more impossible than gimp.
15:24:43 <b_jonas> I don't use inkscape, but I do use gimp sometimes.
15:24:43 <ais523> actually what I mostly use gimp for is filling in PDFs by adding text to them
15:24:47 <ais523> but its UI for that is terrible :-(
15:25:05 <b_jonas> ais523: have you tried upgrading to a newer version? the UI sometimes becomes better, and sometimes worse.
15:25:21 <b_jonas> I don't find the gimp ui terrible, only hard to learn, but I'm past the hard to learn part.
15:25:22 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm using the Ubuntu package manager's version
15:26:07 <b_jonas> I tried to download an English manual for my washing machine from LG's homepage and failed. But I realized I have a printed English manual, I just didn't find it last time, which is why I read the Hungarian.
15:26:26 <ais523> b_jonas: presumably the problem is that the Hungarian is badly translated?
15:26:34 <b_jonas> But it still hurts how difficult it is sometimes to get manuals even for not too old household appliances.
15:26:50 <b_jonas> ais523: that's my default assumption. this one isn't even _too_ bad, compared to some others.
15:27:01 <b_jonas> It did have some mistakes, but was mostly readable.
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15:27:53 <b_jonas> I mean, it claimed that the floor should not be slanted to more than some impossibly small angle, but that was obviously a mistake, they wanted to say that you should adjust the adjustable feet so that the machine isn't slanted more than tha.
15:28:24 <b_jonas> I'm looking at the English manual now to see what it says.
15:29:03 <b_jonas> Mind you, sometimes the English manual is badly translated too, written by Chinese people who don't speak enough English,
15:29:21 <b_jonas> but the English manuals or software UIs are never worse than the Hungarian ones as far as I've seen.
15:30:24 <b_jonas> Hmm. The English manual also says “Installation place requirement. Level floor : Allowable slope under entire washer is 1°”
15:30:42 <b_jonas> That's obviously unsatisfiable in a bathroom.
15:30:53 <b_jonas> And the manual does talk about the adjustable legs.
15:31:54 <b_jonas> yep, “adjustable feet” here
15:32:30 <b_jonas> I guess this is one of those statements they put in so that they can deny acting on the warranty if they feel like it.
15:34:48 <fizzie> Sometimes bathrooms have level raised pedestal-type things for washers.
15:35:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, sometimes. That's necessary on some floors.
15:35:53 <fizzie> I adjusted and re-adjusted and so on the legs for the washer we had in Finland, but it still kept moving around when doing the spin cycles.
15:35:56 <b_jonas> http://www.lg.com/hu/termektamogatas/lg-F12B8ND1 has a link to manuals, but they're broken.
15:36:41 <fizzie> Apparently no matter how level the machine itself was, having a slope + vibration + slippery tiles was enough to have it start moving.
15:37:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, and a pedestal helps because you can fix the machine on it easier than on the floor itself.
15:37:17 <b_jonas> but that depends on the machine and possibly other things.
15:37:28 <b_jonas> Some older washing machines shake a lot.
15:38:14 <b_jonas> Anyway, now I know which program I need for synthetic clothes, so I'm off getting the curtains down the rods and washing them.
15:38:17 <fizzie> LG's washers have that fancy thing where you can call the support, hold the phone near the washer, press a button combination on it and have it whistle diagnostic information with modulated tunes over the phone.
15:39:19 <ais523> fizzie: that reminds me of the GRUB2 option to output all text it prints through the PC speakers as morse code
15:39:39 <fizzie> Also an app that can listen to it and suggest simple solutions.
15:40:05 <fizzie> I wonder if someone's reverse-engineered the protocol already.
15:42:37 <b_jonas> this one has that option too
15:42:52 <b_jonas> basically a one-way modem in it
15:43:17 <ais523> b_jonas: that's just a modulator
15:43:18 <b_jonas> using probably the same speaker it uses to beep when the washing is complete
15:43:25 <ais523> ("modem" is short for "modulator-demodulator")
15:43:56 <b_jonas> it's probably implemented mostly in software these days
15:44:01 <fizzie> "My washer has a mom in it" can lead to incorrect interpretations.
15:44:45 <ais523> fizzie: just "mo" I guess, I think the final "m" of "modem" comes from the third letter of "demodulator"
15:45:15 <b_jonas> It also has a four digit display, but they don't trust me of being able to read and type a few dozen digits from the screen to the web probably.
15:45:27 <b_jonas> I'm not really the target user for this type of washing machine.
15:45:49 <b_jonas> Or at least for some features of it.
15:45:56 <b_jonas> I mean, it has programs I'll probably never use.
15:46:53 <fizzie> You've got to have that product differentiation somehow, and it's easy to do with programs.
15:47:01 <fizzie> Also, spin RPM numbers.
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15:48:06 <fizzie> Washer A with 15 programs and 1500 RPM is objectively better than washer B with 12 programs and 1400 RPM by 3 programs and 100 RPMs.
15:48:53 <b_jonas> Oh, I think it was the dishwasher for which I don't have an English manual.
15:49:15 <b_jonas> But that one isn't too important. The dishwasher barely needs a manual, once it's set up for the water hardness.
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15:50:45 <boily> I wish I had a dishwasher. I'm a dishwisher.
15:50:52 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 15m 39s ago: <boily> fungot: write is a function of one argument. what's a tlo? a Three Letter Optimisation? death is too much tourtière. <-- actually death is having to fix wikipedia and wiktionary's inconsistent etymologies of tourtière hth
15:50:52 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 12m 27s ago: also death is having to paste è because his keyboard refuses to recognize the obvious keypresses
15:50:52 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 8m 7s ago: oh wait, i was pressing the wrong key
15:50:52 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 7m 36s ago: still doesn't work in the browser, though.
15:50:54 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 2h 6m 16s ago: what does (tsé.) mean
15:51:56 <boily> @tell oerjan qc:tsé is about en:y'know.
15:55:30 <b_jonas> Ok, I started the confusingly named program.
15:57:52 <boily> b_jhellonas. still adapting the new house to your needs?
15:58:03 <ais523> oh, I didn't realise b_jonas had a new house
16:01:33 <b_jonas> It's an apartment, not a whole house.
16:03:18 <b_jonas> I have to call two different servicemen tomorrow to schedule some minor repairs that weren't so urgent that I call them at Christmas or weekend,
16:03:51 <b_jonas> plus a third minor repair I'll be able to do myself but I have to buy some screw ring thingy for it.
16:04:45 <b_jonas> My general enjoying the house was paused for Christmas due to family programs.
16:04:51 <b_jonas> But I'm home now at least.
16:08:11 <boily> you have family programs on your dishwasher? neat.
16:08:57 <b_jonas> If only travel was so easy. A family meeting involves airplane and car rides.
16:09:15 <ais523> international or within the country?
16:09:43 <b_jonas> (There's almost no airplane traffic within Hungary.)
16:09:50 <b_jonas> Car trips within the country.
16:10:37 <b_jonas> My brother and her wife lives in Sweden on a permanent basis, but they visit often, and so far have visited on each Christmas.
16:11:02 <b_jonas> I'm still afraid to imagine what Christmas would be like when they are unable to visit.
16:11:16 <b_jonas> But it will certainly happen eventually.
16:11:32 <Taneb> b_jonas, that's similar for my dad's family, because for some reason he decided to move to England in the 90s
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16:12:16 <b_jonas> You can at least drive from Sweden, with two drivers alternating and one sleep in between.
16:13:04 <b_jonas> Airplane is cheaper and faster, but driving gets you to transfer a car and optionally a lots of luggage.
16:13:46 <Taneb> Yeah, one of my cousins is trying to move here as well
16:14:41 <b_jonas> I hear there are some other ways to transfer lots of personal belongings long distance, involving some sort of container or ship, but they're worth only if you move with a whole family to Israel or some such cases.
16:15:18 <Taneb> Yeah, that's what we did when we lived in Australia for a year
16:15:24 <b_jonas> Technically, there are also trains to Sweden, but they're horribly expensive for some reason.
16:15:49 <Taneb> Because they go through russia?
16:16:03 <b_jonas> Taneb: no, there's a bridge from Denmark now
16:16:08 <b_jonas> or are there no trains there?
16:16:21 <Taneb> I know there's a road bridge
16:16:33 <Taneb> Ooh, yeah, it has railway as well
16:16:36 <Taneb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%98resund_Bridge
16:16:44 <b_jonas> But even without, you can switch from train to the ferry.
16:16:52 <b_jonas> You have to switch trains multiple times anyway.
16:18:14 <ais523> trains are ridiculously expensive even within England where there's no borders to worry about
16:18:28 <b_jonas> Anyway, trains are a comfortable way to travel to Italy, Slovenian, Macedonia, Bulgaria, though bus is also available and cheaper but much less comfy; and I hear trains are even a borderline viable option to Switzerland.
16:18:49 <ais523> there's one journey I've been thinking about that costs £90 by train but only about £10 by coach going in one direction (but £40 by coach going in the other direction)
16:19:03 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, that's the other thing, for some reason international trains are much more expensive than trains within Hungary.
16:19:09 <b_jonas> And trains within Hungary aren't cheap either.
16:19:30 <ais523> it's partly to do with zone boundaries or something like that I think
16:19:41 <Taneb> I'm thinking of going interrailing next autumn
16:19:42 <ais523> I can spend £6.40 to get a card that allows me to use any public transport in the West Midlands for one day
16:19:47 <ais523> which kind-of puts a cap on the train prices
16:19:58 <ais523> go even slightly outside the West Midlands and the prices are a lot worse
16:20:04 <b_jonas> Trains here are so expensive that if you have more than one full price adult traveling, and it's not all within Budapest or agglomeration, then driving a car is always a much better option than trains or buses.
16:20:16 <b_jonas> I wish trains and buses were cheaper.
16:20:59 <ais523> I used a bus to get into work today
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16:21:13 <ais523> actually the way train and bus pricing works in the UK is weird
16:21:22 <ais523> for the buses, a day ticket usually costs less than two singles
16:21:39 <ais523> meaning that day tickets are purchased almost exclusively unless you're only going in one direction for some reason
16:21:48 <ais523> meanwhile, on the trains, most discounts only apply to return tickets
16:22:18 <ais523> meaning that if you're doing a journey for which discounts apply, which is most of them, returns are /much/ better value than singles, and sometimes actually cheaper (i.e. to do a single journey you buy a return ticket and then don't use one half)
16:22:29 <b_jonas> Oh, and it's so expensive that some physically handicapped people earn some money from having people hire them to travel with them, who then illegally buy reduced fare tickets for serving as a person accompanying the disabled person (who doesn't actually need this).
16:22:59 <Taneb> ais523, I just generally book in advance and hope
16:23:21 <ais523> day tickets on the bus in the West Midlands are currently £4 per day if you buy them in bulk (i.e. you have to buy them in advance but they aren't marked against any particular day)
16:23:45 <ais523> ofc a bus pass is cheaper if you travel most days of the year, but not if you're an occasional traveller (like me), because you have to pay even for the days you aren't travelling
16:23:50 <b_jonas> If you travel on the same train or bus line regularly, then buying a pass is cheaper than driving a car, but you have to live in the right place where going to work with a train everyday is a good option.
16:23:51 <ais523> Taneb: right, advance tickets are weird
16:23:57 <ais523> sometimes they're much cheaper and sometimes they aren't any cheaper
16:24:28 <b_jonas> Most people outside big cities simply don't live in the right place, which results in masses of unemployed people who can't work because they don't have they money to commute to the nearest city to get work.
16:26:06 <b_jonas> There's one case where occasonaly travel on train is actually well worth: it's when you live in Budapest and have a local bus pass (transport pass valid for metro, trams, etc),
16:26:43 <b_jonas> because then you can also use trains within the borders of Budapest for free with the pass, and for some locations they're actually better than taking the bus if you time your travel for the train timetable.
16:27:06 <ais523> b_jonas: right, I've never had one of those passes for any "long" time period – not cost effective – but I've bought them for single days on occasion
16:27:37 <b_jonas> But this rarely comes up because it works out only if you travel _between_ two suitable locations. There's basically no one location within the borders of Budapest from which going into the city is generally the best by train.
16:27:50 <FireFly> <b_jonas> Technically, there are also trains to Sweden, but they're horribly expensive for some reason. ← yeah, the train situation in Sweden is pretty messed up, even within the country
16:28:21 <b_jonas> You have to want to trabel between two outskirt lobes of Budapest, so that you skip going into the centre by the train..
16:28:22 <FireFly> I think sometimes it's cheaper or about on par cost-wise to fly instead
16:29:11 <b_jonas> FireFly: I hear trains in Sweden is complicated because there's multiple different types of trains and buses, differing on whether they're fixed price or cheaper to book earlier, and other factors.
16:29:55 <ais523> b_jonas: huh, in Birmingham, the vast majority of the train lines go through the centre, if you want to go somewhere by train that isn't at approximately the same angle from the centre you'll probably have to change trains /in/ the centre
16:30:07 <b_jonas> There are trains or buses here that you want to book in advance or they get filled and you can't get a ticket, but I can't think of any where the price is actually cheaper if you buy much in advance.
16:30:33 <b_jonas> ais523: Yes, that's sort of why it comes up often.
16:30:40 <ais523> also we have a distinction between buses which are typically local and can't be booked in advance, and coaches which are longer-distance and you have to book in advance
16:31:33 <b_jonas> But basically, the outskirts of Pest is split to like four lobes, such that each is served by buses from a different big station or two,
16:31:39 <FireFly> I think in general it's cheaper to buy train tickets early, but I'm not really sure what decides the price
16:32:26 <b_jonas> namely the northernmost part is served from the north part of the metro 3, this is separated by train lines blocking much of car and bus traffic from the north middle lobe,
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16:32:53 <FireFly> I knew someone who ordered tickets from Göteborg to Uppsala but only travelled to Stockholm (which the train goes through) because it was cheaper that way, though, which is a bit curious
16:33:00 <b_jonas> which is served by buses and these days partially by metro 4, which is blocked from the middle lobe by another set of train lines unpassable by car,
16:33:31 <b_jonas> then the big south lobe is served by buses from Örs Vezér tér (the terminus of metro 2) and by the south end of metro 3 (Határ út and Kőbánya Kispest).
16:33:46 <ais523> FireFly: the rules about which tickets let you make which journies on UK trains are definitely ontopic for #esoteric :-)
16:33:52 <ais523> if not /actually/ Turing-complete
16:34:19 <b_jonas> But the trick is that if you want to go from the north middle lobe to the south lobe, then it _can_ be worth to take trains that pass through from north to south,
16:34:27 <FireFly> Could they ever deny you to leave at an earlier stop than your destination?
16:34:44 <FireFly> I mean, it seems like the kind of thing that would be hard to disallow
16:35:14 <b_jonas> and whose goal is actually to go from the city centre at Nyugati pályaudvar to various parts outside Budapest through multiple rail lines going out of the cith on the southern lobe.
16:36:16 <b_jonas> (It's possible that there are actually six lobes, the southern ones being served by Ráckevei HÉV and Csepeli HÉV, but luckily I'm not familiar enough with that.)
16:37:37 <b_jonas> There are also two tangential tram lines (tram 1 and tram 3) that somewhat connect the three lobes, and sometimes they're worth to take, but rarely,
16:38:10 <b_jonas> because unless the start or destination location is close to them, it's just faster to go through the center most of the times.
16:38:13 <FireFly> Hmm, we barely have any trams at all
16:38:58 <b_jonas> There's also the special case when you want to go on a route where you don't have to go up stairs at all, such as when I took luggage in a huge bag so heavy from the old home to the new home that I literally couldn't take it up the stairs:
16:39:20 <b_jonas> then I took tram 3, which is slower, but has a low floor, and gives a route with no underpasses.
16:39:51 <b_jonas> It wasn't really required, we could just have took the stuff by car, but I liked the challenge and wanted to try how viable this route was.
16:40:09 <b_jonas> The tram is only like 10 or 20 minutes slower than going through the center with the metro.
16:40:44 <b_jonas> Mostly because I have to walk the last one station instead of taking the metro.
16:41:25 <FireFly> Heh. Apparently the official numbers for the tram lines here are 7, 7N, 12, 21, 22 (though they're all referred to by other names in practice)
16:41:45 <b_jonas> Obviously, in the one rare case where I must carry lots of luggage, namely going to where the bus starts for a ski trip, if a car isn't available, I can pay for a taxi.
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16:44:25 <b_jonas> FireFly: yeah, the HÉV has numeric identifiers these days, namely H5, H6, H7, H8, H9, but these numbers are new so people haven't learnt them yet, and just use the destinations as a name like we used to.
16:45:43 <b_jonas> These names were assigned when BKV decided to reassign numbers to lots of lines at the same time in such a way that there are only two namespaces, one for (bus, tram, streetcar) and one for (metro, HÉV, ship) rather than four like there used to be.
16:45:51 <FireFly> We use colours for the subway, the destination for local rail, and then a bunch of lines that have their own names for historical reason
16:46:03 <b_jonas> Oh sure, there's still a few exceptions.
16:46:38 <FireFly> But they all have internal numbers that nobody knows
16:47:15 <b_jonas> The metros have always had numbers, but also colors at the same time. The Libegő and the Budavári Sikló still don't have names, because they're so unique. The fogaskerekű (cogway railway) does have a number now, but I'm not sure if people use it, because it's also a unique and recognizable type of vehicle.
16:48:09 <b_jonas> Oh, and at the renamespacing, they also made another change which is _much_ more significant than eliminating the clashing numbers (bus 3 and tram 3; bus 73 and streetcar 73).
16:48:10 <ais523> <FireFly> Could they ever deny you to leave at an earlier stop than your destination? ← in most cases in the UK you're actually allowed to leave at an earlier stop than your destination, then get back on a later train and continue to your destination; this makes optimal train ticket planning very complex
16:49:27 <b_jonas> The old numbering used to have variant bus numbers for "express" buses that are red numbers in a rectangular frame; or, when that can't be presented on the media, a number in rectangular frame in the normal foreground color; or, when that can't be presented either, the number followed by "GY" (standing for "gyors");
16:49:55 <b_jonas> this system is easy for locals who are used to it, but cryptic to tourists passing by, so now we don't have it.
16:51:11 <FireFly> Our busses are red or blue, with the blue ones being "express" busses of sorts with fewer stops and usually connecting several key locations when the metro doesn't cut it
16:51:24 <b_jonas> Those buses now have a number followed by the letter "E". So now almost all lines are identified by a number of at least three digits, followed by one of the suffixes "E" or sometimes "A" or rarely "B" or "C" (I'm not sure if those are in use still), or prefix "M" (for metro, or metro replacement bus line), or "V" (for tram replacement bus line),
16:51:39 <FireFly> there's a system to which numbers correspond to blue busses, but it's rather cryptic and I don't think most people know about it
16:51:43 <b_jonas> or "H" (for HÉV or HÉV replacement bus line), or "D" (for ship).
16:51:54 <FireFly> some of them are three-digit numbers where the center digit is a 7
16:53:16 <b_jonas> Oh, and only the numbers 1 to 299 are in use, plus the numbers 900 to 999 for nightly buses, because 300 to 899 are reserved for bus interurban bus lines outside Budapest, not ran by BKK.
16:53:52 <b_jonas> This is a nice well designed system, though there's still some occasional exceptions where they manage to break it.
16:54:07 <b_jonas> Mostly temporary ones, but still.
16:54:20 <b_jonas> But then, "temporary" can mean it's only for three years here.
16:56:00 <b_jonas> Apparently "B" still exists as a suffix in at least one case.
16:56:54 <b_jonas> "C" always used to exist for temporary bus lines going to cementaries on --11-01 (when many people visit cementaries), and only if "A" and "B" was already used for that number.
16:57:41 <b_jonas> Oh, and before the namespacing put night buses to 900..999, they used to have the suffix "É", at the same time when a few express buses had the suffix "E" instead or a red number with frame.
16:58:42 <b_jonas> So the namespacing is well worth, even though I have a little grief that bus line 3 is no longer called that, it's been renamed to line 33, when IMO it would have deserved "3" much more than the tram line.
16:59:44 <b_jonas> But it does actually make sense rationally, for despite tram line 3 being new, it is a very important tram line, whereas bus line 3 is only important for having had that number for a long time.
17:01:50 <ais523> how easy is it to distinguish an E from an É?
17:01:52 <b_jonas> The namespacing didn't completely renumber everything from the star, so there's still lots of historical reasons for why certain lines have certain numbers.
17:02:40 <b_jonas> ais523: depends on the design of the sign. The night bus signs in bus stops are easy to recognize, for they have the number on inverted background, and an owl icon.
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17:11:36 <b_jonas> Obviously the bus lines are many and change more often than the lines of other vehicles.
17:12:23 <b_jonas> Although we are living in interesting times where the govt is actually building tram linse in Buda to fix its traffic.
17:13:30 <b_jonas> It might even be ready in a year or two.
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17:19:12 <fizzie> I think it's not unheard of to have train tickets where you can't get off at an intermediate stop. I know VR (the Finnish train operator) website at least earlier let you buy a ticket for a decidedly non-optimal "go from A to B via C" (where A and B are relatively near, but C is far away) connection that was significantly cheaper than tickets from A to C (because the price was derived from the ...
17:19:18 <fizzie> ... from/to distance, not the total route) and I believe you couldn't legally use that ticket to go from A to C only.
17:19:33 <fizzie> People still did that, since it's hard to enforce.
17:20:14 <fizzie> Finland doesn't generally do gates at stations, the tickets are only checked on the train.
17:20:23 <ais523> in the UK, it's kind-of random where tickets will be checked
17:20:30 <ais523> station gates and on-train both happen sporadically and randomly
17:20:40 <ais523> (very large stations are the most likely to enforce a check at the gates)
17:20:51 <b_jonas> I'm quite sure we don't have that here. As long as the train has a normal stop somewhere where you could get off with _some_ ticket, you're allowed to get off with any ticket.
17:21:19 <fizzie> I think every time we've departed from London Euston there's been a ticket check at the station.
17:21:45 <b_jonas> The train tickets are sold for a route and priced on route distance (or at least the official measurement of route distances in the book), and unlike tickets for any other vehicle, you can even get off trains and get on another train continuing the same route with a train ticket.
17:22:59 <b_jonas> Whereas tickets inside Budapest are mostly unit tickets for getting on once and getting off once, regardless distance, except that you're allowed to change from a line to or from a bus replacing it, or change between two metros free.
17:23:03 <coppro> Japanese trains are pretty consistently station-gated
17:23:17 <fizzie> I like the fact about London buses that you can use a travel card of any zone for any bus line, no matter where it goes. I've got a zone 1/2 travelcard for my commute, so bus travel is essentially free.
17:23:21 <coppro> most travel is done using a preloaded card, which is charged based on where you enter and exit
17:23:37 <b_jonas> So with a local ticket inside Budapest, you definitely aren't allowed to get off and get on another vehicle.
17:23:47 <fizzie> (I don't like the fact that there's no validity time for a bus ticket; if you have to change buses, it costs exactly twice as much as taking one bus.)
17:23:57 <ais523> oh, and long-distance trains are the most likely to check on the train
17:24:08 <ais523> fizzie: the normal technique here is to buy a day ticket rather than a single
17:24:27 <coppro> long-distance trains will only come round and check if they are an express, which carries an additional charge.
17:24:29 <b_jonas> There's time limits on the tickets, but they're for catching cheaters who try to reuse the ticket. If you use the ticket in the permitted way, then you can't run out of the time limit.
17:24:46 <coppro> you can pay on the train though
17:24:49 <ais523> the London Underground uses station gate checks consistently
17:24:55 <fizzie> Well, London's Oyster has a "daily cap" thing, and there's a special bus-only cap that's lower than the normal daily cap.
17:25:22 <fizzie> It's £4.40, and a single bus trip is £1.50.
17:25:51 <coppro> the only time I didn't see an operating gate in Japan was when it was late at night in a small station, so they didn't have a staff member on hand so they just left the gate open. But in Japan, the amount of abuse that would see is pretty low
17:26:00 <fizzie> So it's fixed £4.40 if you do anything involving at least 3 buses within a day; but a round-trip somewhere is still £3.00 if you can manage to pick a route that doesn't involve changing buses.
17:26:02 <b_jonas> There are monthly passes, very popular, plus daily tickets and a few other options used mostly by visitors who travel a lot in a short span.
17:27:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: so it's like a daily ticket chosen automatically after the fact? that's nice, but it works only for an electronic system, not for the paper-based tickets here.
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17:29:07 <fizzie> b_jonas: Yes. With the extra twist that there are different caps for different combinations of zones, and it automatically computes for you the lowest amount of money you could be paying. (As in, "use the cap for zones 1-3 and exclude your one zone 1-6 trip, because it's cheaper than the zone 1-6 cap even though that would include the one trip".)
17:29:53 <fizzie> Oh, and also off-peak/on-peak caps.
17:29:54 <b_jonas> There are always rumours about plans to get a partly electronic system here, but it's not quite clear to me how such a thing could work.
17:30:42 <ais523> b_jonas: we have a partly electronic system in Birmingham at the moment
17:30:51 <b_jonas> The supposedly machine-readable barcodes that have been printed on every ticket and pass for a while probably have the goal of easing compatibility with an eventual electronic system.
17:30:58 <ais523> it works like this: you can buy tickets on the bus by paying cash; or you can use one of three types of electronic card
17:31:07 <ais523> one of them substitutes for cash, you pre-load it with money and use it to pay for the tickets
17:31:24 <ais523> one of them is loaded with day tickets in advance, and automatically uses one if you haven't used it yet that day
17:31:41 <b_jonas> That is, in worst case, you could have machines that automatically replace paper tickets and passes with whatever comes after, by reading the barcodes. Pity they're printed unreadable on a few passes, but they fixed that quickly.
17:31:47 <ais523> and one of them is a season ticket that lets you travel on all forms of public transport for free for a year (and accordingly is very expensive)
17:31:54 <ais523> actually, might just be all buses for a year
17:31:55 <fizzie> They've also got a weekly cap if you're paying with a contactless credit/debit card, which for some reason doesn't apply to the regular Oyster card. Possibly they're trying to promote the use of contactless -- at least they keep having ads about it everywhere.
17:31:56 <ais523> not sure, I don't have one
17:32:26 <b_jonas> aoOh, I think I've seen such a thing in Sweden, where there are both pre-paid electronic cards and buying tickets in place on buses.
17:32:34 <fizzie> (Any contactless credit/debit card works "automatically" as a travel card, you can even register it on the website and all.)
17:33:39 <b_jonas> On certain bus and trolley lines, you can buy tickets at the driver or controller here too, but that only works on low traffic lines. It checks out, since the high traffic lines are mostly hub lines that stop at locations where you can buy a ticket outside the bus anyway.
17:35:05 <b_jonas> The real problem is high traffic bus or tram lines. It seems hard to imagine a full automatic system there, although you could still have an electronic system with the controllers carrying electronic gadgets. For metros, it _might_ be just about possible to install automatic gates, although there'll be some throughput problems.
17:35:58 <fizzie> London's pretty busy, and they manage to do that.
17:36:14 <fizzie> You can't pay bus fares with anything else than the card.
17:36:37 <fizzie> The busy routes have card readers also on the middle doors, so that not everyone has to get in through the front door.
17:37:17 <fizzie> Of course the single-fare-no-options thing makes it easier, you just shove your card towards the machine and wait until it goes beep.
17:37:37 <b_jonas> It can be worth to do this even for the metros, because they have lots of traffic.
17:38:08 <b_jonas> So even if everywhere else the tickets just work the same as now, with controllers checking it, only using a mobile phone instead of manual inspection, it could be an improvement.
17:38:08 <fizzie> For the one in Helsinki, you have to select the kind of ticket you want, which makes it a lot slower. (Plus the devices themselves are pretty bad -- especially older people can't actually press the buttons with sufficient strenght for it to register.)
17:38:48 <fizzie> They'll be replacing the whole system next year, hopefully the new ones will be better.
17:39:12 <fizzie> They've been postponing it. Any sort of public project that involves computers is always behind schedule and over budget.
17:39:39 <ais523> fizzie: the one in Birmingham, you tell the bus driver what you want, who presses the buttons
17:39:43 <ais523> and then place the card on the card reader
17:39:49 <ais523> presumably this is to work around people who are bad at pressing buttons
17:39:59 <b_jonas> The vending machines here aren't ideal too. Some people have trouble using the interface, but there's usually people around who can help. Any smartphone user youth can use it, as much as it works at least. There's still places where humans are selling tickets, but in fewer locations with shorter opening times.
17:40:20 <ais523> oh, I had huge problems buying a train ticket in London
17:40:22 <fizzie> http://papunet.net/sites/papunet.net/files/kuvapankki/matkakortin_lukija.jpg <-- the card interfaces in Helsinki.
17:40:31 <b_jonas> The real problem with the current system the passes printed by this machine.
17:40:43 <fizzie> You're supposed to hold the card near the middle of the green cross-shaped thing, and press the button while still keeping the card sufficiently near.
17:40:49 <ais523> they had more than one sort of machine, the sort that worked out what sort of ticket you needed for you wouldn't let me type my destination station because one of the letter keys was broken
17:40:51 <fizzie> For all practical purposes, the bottom slot is not used for anything.
17:40:55 <fizzie> It's not exactly intuitive.
17:40:58 <ais523> so I had to use a machine where you had to know the ticket you needed in advance
17:41:26 <fizzie> (Some very special groups like HSL employees have chip cards that can go to the lower slot, I believe, but that's a negligible fraction.)
17:41:45 <b_jonas> Unlike the previous tickets and passes of various colors and pre-printed templates, all currently sold tickets are printed by a printer to a single type of roll of paper, just like how the train tickets work these days, only this paper roll has fancy holographic strip and other supposedly hard to counterfeit features:
17:42:13 <fizzie> (Oh, and the buttons have no "travel" at all.)
17:42:23 <b_jonas> except that there's no point counterfeiting the paper itself, because you can just erase the printed text and print new tickets on the paper.
17:44:08 <b_jonas> So now the passes are easier to counterfeit, and the controllers have a harder time recognizing it because it's all just black icons and text printed on the same kind of paper.
17:44:34 <b_jonas> Oh, and I have to trim a few millimiters of the pass so it fits in a card sized holder.
17:45:15 <b_jonas> The printing is some sort of laser, not heat printer, because some passes must be legible for slightly over a year.
17:45:18 <ais523> UK train tickets are on a weird sort of cardboard, and also have a magnetic stripe
17:45:33 <ais523> and seem to be printed by a wide number of different printers
17:45:42 <ais523> you can compare two tickets bought from different ticket machines and the ink looks noticeably different
17:45:49 <ais523> (but the magnetic stripe is used for all machine-reading of them)
17:46:45 <b_jonas> We used to have various different formats of train tickets, until they brought in this new system some years ago. Now we only have two format: normal, and printed by the controller on the train (which differs so they can carry a lighter machine and lighter paper).
17:47:29 <b_jonas> Oh, and also the Budapest bus passes can be bought from either the BKK (local transport company) and the MÁV (train company) functionally identical but with different formats.
17:48:02 <b_jonas> Oh, and there's yet another format I forgot:
17:48:10 <b_jonas> you can buy train tickets you can print at home.
17:49:42 <fizzie> You can do that here for many train companies (at least long-distance trains), but not all of them.
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17:50:33 <fizzie> We've done print-at-home tickets for Virgin, but I think ScotRail tickets we needed to collect at our local train station.
17:50:48 <fizzie> "Collect" == print out from the normal ticket machines with the reservation code.
17:50:58 <b_jonas> You can print tickets for home only for certain types of tickets. I'm not familiar with the details.
17:51:09 <fizzie> (At least you could do that at any National Rail station machine, and not only at stations where ScotRail operates.)
17:51:36 <b_jonas> The other formats of the tickets were used in small stations and on the train back when computers were expensive so some stations sold tickets completely manually without a printer.
17:52:17 <b_jonas> Yes, there are pre-paid tickets you collect at the station for big stations, but then the ticket is of just the ordinary format, the same you buy from operators or machines.
17:52:42 <b_jonas> There are some tickets you can buy locally from vending machines on the big stations, paying with card or cash.
17:53:10 <b_jonas> But you can buy those only for certain destinations, so you still have to buy most tickets from operators.
17:53:42 <fizzie> The thing with different train companies here still feels a bit weird, because in Finland VR has a monopoly. (They're planning to open that up for competition, at least for some routes.)
17:54:31 <ais523> the UK has too many train companies
17:55:01 <ais523> different companies own the trains, to the companies that own the track (although only one company owns any significant amount of track), to the companies that actually run the trains
17:55:30 <ais523> also there are a huge range of organizations you can buy train tickets from (including all the train running operators, and a few independent ones), and these train tickets will work on all the appropriate trains
17:55:45 <ais523> and there is apparently a very complex formula used to compensate the various companies accordingly from the train ticket revenue
17:56:15 <fizzie> They've got some sort of administrative split between the thing that owns and maintains the tracks vs. the thing that owns the trains, but since VR Group (the train operator) is still fully owned by the state, it doesn't really matter that much.
17:57:19 <fizzie> Apparently the track maintenance is currently not run as a company but as a government agency. But it used to be part of a company that owned the train operator company. Or something like that.
17:57:20 <b_jonas> We have like two or three extra train companies, but it's not a competition anywhere, the extra companies are just serving a particular area of the country.
17:57:38 <b_jonas> For a passenger, it all works basically as if there was just one company.
17:57:49 <ais523> there are only a few routes in the UK that have company competition
17:58:12 <ais523> (actually I think there are /three/ companies who offer Birmingham to London routes; two of them use basically the same route but stop at different sets of intermediate stations, the third uses a totally different route)
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17:59:14 <b_jonas> There are also multiple bus companies, all regional, and the biggest one probably serves less than half of the country.
17:59:16 <fizzie> I think we've mostly been buying tickets from the "correct" companies, though I think we went Blackpool-London with a ticket bought from Virgin that combined a Northern and a Virgin segment.
17:59:45 <APic> ais523: What You say for the UK is pretty much true for my Part of Europe (Germany) as well.
17:59:58 <APic> At least i guess so.
18:00:07 <b_jonas> A few of the bigger towns have local buses, and Miskolc and Szeged even has local tram lines.
18:00:09 <fizzie> Virgin's just started a handy thing where they'll auto-compensate your credit card if the train is late enough (30 minutes for 50% off, 60 minutes for 100% off, 120 minutes for 100% off for the whole ticket of a return).
18:00:20 <fizzie> Normally you'd need to fill forms and such.
18:00:38 <ais523> fizzie: if you buy a ticket from the company who operates the train, you often get bonuses like a guaranteed seat or choice of seat
18:00:45 <ais523> not in terms of pricing, though, normally just better service
18:00:59 <b_jonas> For some lines between towns, there's actually a competition between bus and train, mind you.
18:01:06 <b_jonas> So that's one form of competition.
18:01:17 <fizzie> The seat selection thing is strange too, I don't think we've ever gotten a proper "here's a map of the train, pick your seats" seat selection for a train trip here.
18:01:25 <fizzie> That's been the norm in Finland for quite a few years by now.
18:02:06 <fizzie> Virgin's "seat selection" seems to mean giving it some attributes about what sort of seats you want, and then getting some sort of a seat assignment back.
18:03:14 <b_jonas> And for Budapest city to the airport, there's a three-wise competition between public transport (bus plus metro, or bus only at night; the least convenient and slowest, but cheapest), taxi (the fastest and most convenient), and bus that takes multiple people directly from or to their destination (cheaper than taxi only if you're travelling alone, but slower).
18:03:28 <b_jonas> \ taxi (the fastest and most convenient), and bus that takes multiple people directly from or to their destination (cheaper than taxi only if you're travelling alone, but slower).
18:04:14 <fizzie> And ScotRail's website was very indecipherable when it came to reserved seatings ("sometimes we have them, sometimes we don't, you can't reserve seats online ever, good luck") -- turns out the Oban-to-Glasgow train was (a) very full, and (b) reserved seats only, and we hadn't gone to do seat reservations at the train station. Had some trouble getting a seat at all.
18:04:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: isn't that done deliberately? there's no seat selection for trains even with reserved seats here, and I don't think there could be, because if there was, everyone travelling alone (the majority of people) would hog one of a double seat first, and then people travelling in pairs or larger groups couldn't book seats close to each other.
18:04:57 <fizzie> Could be. I don't know how the Finnish system accounts for that.
18:05:15 <fizzie> Maybe it doesn't show (all) empty double seats as available if you're buying a single ticket.
18:05:35 <b_jonas> That certainly happens all the time on trams and buses everywhere when there are no reserved seats, unless there's so few people that less than one third of the seats are occupied.
18:05:46 <fizzie> Or maybe I'm assuming too much of it, and they just live with that.
18:05:56 <b_jonas> It doesn't happen in cinemas because much fewer people go to a cinema alone than on a bus.
18:06:29 <fizzie> The cinema seats are also generally in long rows, and it doesn't matter so much if you pick a single seat at the edge of the currently reserved central block.
18:06:35 <fizzie> It doesn't get fragmented that way so badly.
18:07:25 <b_jonas> If you get on a train with two small children, and enough single seats, then people will generally happily move to give you a triple place. But that can't work with reserved tickets.
18:08:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, and on certain trains that go _towards_ Budapest or towards a big city, people don't get on all at the same time, but gradually fill the train.
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18:13:19 <APic> Once i drank too much before the Cinema because i decided to watch a Movie in a small amount of Time, and it was good that i had a Seat near the Edge. B-)
18:14:16 <b_jonas> APic: are you writing with German capitals?
18:14:50 <APic> Probably „before“ has the wrong Meaning, too.
18:14:52 <APic> Or could have.
18:14:57 <APic> I meant before in Time.
18:18:36 <b_jonas> I don't see that used often in English with otherwise standard orthography.
18:19:03 <ais523> b_jonas: you can often figure out who's written a sentence from their writing quirks
18:19:10 <ais523> APic capitalizes nouns, you sometimes get gendered pronouns confused
18:19:15 <b_jonas> ais523: sure. or their programming quirks.
18:19:19 <ais523> I probably have something that identifies me too
18:19:24 <ais523> programming quirks is easier
18:19:35 * APic likes !Anonymous on IRCnet ;)
18:19:53 <b_jonas> In C++ programs, I put tons of asserts, and if(false) or if(true) blocks.
18:20:20 <b_jonas> I also use arrays and explicit array indexes a lot.
18:20:57 <b_jonas> And I'm adamant in the int *foo; spacing
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18:21:52 <APic> I glue * to the Variable-Name instead of the Type too.
18:23:29 <ais523> b_jonas: I use int *const foo; spacing too
18:23:38 <ais523> saw an autoindentor use it and decided that I liked it
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18:23:53 <ais523> because it shows quite clearly that the const is attached to the * (i.e. the pointer is const)
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18:26:41 <b_jonas> It makes sense for an old C programmer. Less so for a C++ programmer who writes stuff like array<int, 16>, unique_ptr<foo>, observer_ptr<foo>.
18:33:24 <APic> C++ puts way more Load on the Lexer and/or Parser.
18:35:41 <fizzie> ais523: Does that extend to `int *const *foo`? Hmm. I've never known where to put the mid-'const', but that doesn't look half bad.
18:35:57 <ais523> fizzie: yes, "int *const *foo"
18:36:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes. and even to int *
18:37:09 <b_jonas> with a newline between the * and the foo so the defined name gets in the first column
18:37:11 <APic> „cdecl“ and „cundecl“ are good Friends. B-)
18:37:21 <fizzie> I don't do the first-column names, so that's not an issue for me.
18:37:41 <APic> b_jonas: Somehow looks more like K&R-Style instead of like modern ANSI.
18:37:42 <fizzie> Also I've started to use ` to quote things when talking about C, because it doesn't have a meaning there. It's not even in the basic character set.
18:38:02 <APic> (The ANSI-Stuff i can remember at the Moment)
18:38:32 <APic> I like `„` and `“`. Unicode rocks. B)
18:38:36 <fizzie> Well, `foo()` is pretty non-modern; no prototype.
18:38:44 <fizzie> Or, well; non-modern, or C++.
18:39:14 <APic> The Lack of the Prototype yes, but the Newline looked old to me.
18:39:26 <ais523> APic: I often use « » for quoting code because anything in ASCII can be confused for part of what's being quoted
18:39:32 <ais523> but Perl 6 uses «» as quote marks
18:45:10 <b_jonas> APic: the problem with „”»« quotation marks is that all of »«“ are used as both opening quotation marks in some language and closing quotation marks in some other language.
18:45:38 <b_jonas> So while they clearly delimit a quotation, in some contexts it could be confusing whether they're starting or ending marks.
18:48:06 <b_jonas> Especially if you're quoting in technical contexts where the quoted text may start or end with whitespace.
18:48:46 <b_jonas> Funnily, I think „” is unambiguous, and so are Japanese quotation marks.
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18:51:02 <b_jonas> But I'm not sure about the former.
18:51:11 <ais523> Japanese quotation marks would look ridiculous if backwards
18:51:35 <b_jonas> Oh, and single quotation marks can be ambiguous with apostrophes.
18:52:02 <b_jonas> (And that's when printed. In handwriting, there's much more ambiguities of course.)
18:54:19 <APic> b_jonas: Are not `„“` like `»«`?
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18:54:52 <APic> Good Question.
18:56:56 <b_jonas> IIRC the quotation mark pairs used in European languages are “” „” „“ »« «» and some variants with single instead of double, but with various whitespace conventions, but I have the feeling there's some combination I'm missing
18:57:09 <b_jonas> Let me check en.wikipedia.
18:57:58 <b_jonas> Oh right, there's also straight quotation marks "" and the singles of that.
18:59:26 <b_jonas> Oh, apparently ”” and »» also exists.
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19:04:13 <b_jonas> Let me count how many combinations that gives. “” „” „“ ”” »« «» »» ‘’ ‚’ ’’ ›‹ ‹› ›› except that the last one might not actually exist, and that about three of those exist with whitespace on both sides in French.
19:04:54 <b_jonas> That's about 17 combinations.
19:05:24 <b_jonas> And this means there's no European quotation mark that's unambiguously closing a quote, never opening it.
19:09:25 <b_jonas> Since these competing standards are so confusing, let's invent a new kind of quotation mark that's better than all of them!
19:14:48 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, if you go to programming languages, then there are more
19:15:59 <b_jonas> [[ ]] [=[ ]=] etc in Lua, """ """ or ''' ''' in Python, R"( )" R"*( )*" etc in modern C++, () and two other pairs I don't remember in postscript
19:23:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ATZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46004&oldid=42095 * 92.225.12.43 * (+10) stub
19:24:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ATZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46005&oldid=46004 * 92.225.12.43 * (-12)
19:26:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Church-Turing thesis]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46006&oldid=23582 * 92.225.12.43 * (+9)
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20:06:23 <quintopia> ais523: i entered a 3SP program in a PPCG challenge
20:06:34 <ais523> quintopia: neat; link?
20:06:46 <ais523> also I didn't realise that other people were programming 3SP nowadays
20:06:56 <ais523> I got as far as sketch-proving it was TC and then I stopped
20:07:14 <ais523> err, TC and output-only BFC
20:08:49 <b_jonas> AGDC starts in a week, that's great
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20:12:08 <zzo38> I think the Japanese quotations mark format is easily enough though
20:13:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: but Japanese quotation marks are for Kanji style grid cells, they don't mesh well with Latin letter text
20:13:01 <quintopia> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/67795/47050
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20:14:50 <zzo38> Yes, you are correct
20:16:17 <ais523> quintopia: also how much effort did it take to get the program to halt?
20:16:52 <b_jonas> A Three Star Programmer program? wow!
20:16:59 <b_jonas> There's actual programs in that language now?
20:17:55 <ais523> b_jonas: I have a sketch of an algo for compiling cyclic tag to 3SP
20:18:01 <ais523> but it doesn't handle I/O so I have no way to test it
20:18:17 <ais523> I was working on a way to do I/O too but got distracted and ended up inventing Last ReSort instead
20:19:12 <b_jonas> ais523: is the translation polynomial time?
20:19:49 <ais523> each cyclic tag cycle takes one 3SP cycle
20:20:05 <ais523> however, the length of that cycle might not be linear in the size of the original cyclic tag program
20:20:12 <ais523> can't remember whether it is or not
20:21:00 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but is the runtime still polynomial in the original rumtime? and do you need only polynomial time to generate the 3sp source code from the cyclic tag source code?
20:21:07 <quintopia> ais523: two commands i think. it turned out to be enough to just point reg0 somewhere else
20:21:29 <ais523> b_jonas: the compiler is O(n)
20:21:33 <b_jonas> at the point where cyclic tag is involved, I no longer care much about being linear, because it's probably a lost cause anyway, as opposed to just polynomial.
20:21:47 <b_jonas> I didn't know 3sp is so programmable.
20:22:06 <ais523> yes, I got disappointed in it when I realised it was too easy
20:23:35 <b_jonas> Let me see if Rosetta Code has 3SP programs on it yet
20:24:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[3SP]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46007 * B jonas * (+35) Redirected page to [[Three Star Programmer]]
20:46:23 <quintopia> any ideas for the totally unstructured langusge yet
20:50:45 <b_jonas> I want to buy a compact camera, but it's hard to compare them, so I should figure out some tie-breaker feature to compare the similar cameras. Sensitivity bracketing could be such a feature, if it is available in some of the compact cameras of the category I want.
20:51:21 <b_jonas> How do camera manufacturers call that these days? Something with "multi" I think.
20:53:41 <b_jonas> I have to find out how each brand calls this feature first.
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21:07:35 <b_jonas> Aha, apparently that feature is called "AE Bracketing".
21:08:56 <b_jonas> "AE" might stand for "adjust exposure" or it might not, I'm not sure
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21:53:05 <vanila> https://github.com/HexHive/printbf
21:53:16 <vanila> brainfuck implemented in a single printf string
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22:07:05 <zzo38> Is there good software for SQL templating in a webpage like PHP is doing, but each block can contain a text part as well (to do a kind of foreach loop templating) and you can declare error handler and so on too
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23:30:15 <boily> vanhelloa, hppavellon[1], chelloppro, hezzo38, QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAH!
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00:31:40 <hppavilion[1]> I think that Lambda Nomic will allow the following strange syntax: {f, g, h}(x)
00:31:54 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, call a set of functions with the variable `x`
00:35:14 <hppavilion[1]> Also, f!({x, y, z}) or something along those lines, which is equivalent to {f(x), f(y), f(z)}, and by extension, {f, g}!({x, y}), which is of course equivalent to {f(x), f(y), g(x), g(y)}
00:37:23 <fizzie> > ($ 10) <$> [(+1), (*2), \x -> 3*x+7]
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01:05:14 <hppavilion[1]> I'm still trying to think of something for the Bracket Calculus
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02:40:02 <HackEgo> sparse matrix algorithm/Sparse matrix algorithms are a trivial special case of non-sparse matrix algorithms, by conjugating with the sparsification operation.
02:40:27 <boily> is there any sparsification operation, and is it a Tanebvention?
02:51:04 <HackEgo> welcome.fr/Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur EFnet ou DALnet.)
02:51:22 <HackEgo> pdf/PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format.
02:51:42 <boily> that I can get behind. PDFs are evil.
02:51:46 <HackEgo> torus/Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented it.
02:52:01 <boily> certified tanebvention®.
02:53:14 <ais523> I don't get the tanebventions meme
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03:07:25 <newsham> https://github.com/HexHive/printbf
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03:38:25 <hppavilion[1]> Wikipedia wants a citation as to the fact that *4)x+,/y is not a well-formed expression, but instead just a meaningless jumble
03:45:48 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: *one Wikipedia editor
03:45:55 <ais523> also I'm sure we have languages where it's valid
03:46:25 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: We do, but it's just discussing the commonly-used ones
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03:47:05 <ais523> well it's valid even in brainfuck!
03:51:37 <pikhq> Few things aren't.
03:54:10 <MDude> I would think by expression, it would mean algebraic expression.
03:56:21 <mauris> fun fact: in golfscript, it's "a = pop() * pop(); push(a / length(5 + x)); push(y)"!
03:56:45 <pikhq> Algebra of Brainfuck expressions
03:56:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MCS-Kaijin * New user account
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04:23:12 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: The only things which aren't are unmatched brackets, and a naive brainfuck interpreter ("[" = push the current location, "]" = pop a location and go to it) will even allow left-heavy brackets
04:23:37 <hppavilion[1]> And if your BF interpreter works on a default-to-zero stack, there is literally NO invalid brainfuck code!
04:23:58 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Can one truly consider a brainfuck program to be an "expression">
04:25:59 <pikhq> Hmm, I like the default-to-zero stack idea.
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04:26:34 <pikhq> Makes no Brainfuck program illegal. Spiffy.
04:26:57 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Ooh, or perhaps for a more eso- factor, a stack that, when pop() is called, injects the value to the back before returning it
04:28:36 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: So pop() is really just roll() that returns the value rolled
04:29:26 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: What do you think of my idea for a "Bracket Calculus"?
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04:55:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WhoScript]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46008 * MCS-Kaijin * (+4136) Created page with "'''WhoScript''' is a Doctor Who-themed [[Esoteric_programming_language|esoteric programming language]] created by Daniel Gentry (MCS-Kaijin). ==Commands== The language can be..."
05:02:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WhoScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46009&oldid=46008 * MCS-Kaijin * (+123)
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06:27:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WhoScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46010&oldid=46009 * MCS-Kaijin * (+197)
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08:01:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kangaroo]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46011&oldid=45825 * Ais523 * (+5) pipe category link
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08:18:40 <fizzie> Software written by aliens?
08:43:51 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: According to someone from #law, the fourth party is the agent
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09:32:52 <b_jonas> I'm looking at large lens compact camera models of the last few years, and I'm trying to set up a mental list of my priorities of what properties I want to look for.
09:33:08 <b_jonas> I think I've identified two important properties.
09:34:15 <b_jonas> I want an interface that, although might not necessarily be easy to learn (since it's my camera, I have time to learn it), lets me quickly change the options I often want to change on the field.
09:34:43 <b_jonas> And I would like wide angle field of view at the widest setting (luckily this latter is easy to tell from the specs).
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09:48:22 <zzo38> Now I made the webpage you can post the user comment for my custom Magic: the Gathering cards; you can still download the plain text file too (and it will remain the primary source), and you can also download the SQLite database. You need account to send comment. You can use curl to post the comments too if you prefer, but you still need an account whether using the web-browser or command-line.
09:49:56 <zzo38> It is: http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php It also links to the plain text and SQL codes.
09:50:13 <zzo38> If you need an account, please do the following: Decide username. Put a colon afterward and then CustomMTG_zzo38 and then another colon and then the password. Tell me by private message the MD5 hash of this, and also tell me your username too, and then I will add it to my computer.
09:51:36 <b_jonas> There are lots of other properties that would be nice to have but aren't priorities; properties that would be important but I can't predict (like whether the mechanical components of the lens will break within three years); properties that are uniform within the category; and properites that I barely care about.
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10:58:09 <b_jonas> wait, is http://joethecircle.com/ webcomic active now? it was stalled for quite a while.
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13:35:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Three Star Programmer]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46012 * SuperJedi224 * (+118) Created page with "If the cells are unbounded, it may still be turing complete even with only two cells depending on the instruction set."
13:39:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Three Star Programmer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46013&oldid=46012 * SuperJedi224 * (+99)
13:58:30 <b_jonas> fungot, please open the window, then close it again after five minutes.
13:58:30 <fungot> b_jonas: good for you.) emacs uses a doubly linked list, i can't
14:03:10 <oerjan> fungot: so that is how emacs manages to open windows
14:03:10 <fungot> oerjan: " ok." at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord?), fnord)
14:03:43 <lambdabot> boily said 22h 11m 46s ago: qc:tsé is about en:y'know.
14:04:30 <oerjan> @tell boily which sounds about like trøndersk:sjø
14:05:06 <oerjan> @ask boily is canadian english:eh in the same category?
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14:56:44 <HackEgo> cls/cls is a command to clear the screen.
14:56:44 <HackEgo> 605) <Vorpal> elliott: well how will you represent "The dog jumped over the lazy dog" then?
14:59:33 <HackEgo> mothology/Mothology is the study of moths, myths and mirths.
14:59:38 <HackEgo> lorem ipsum/Business Internet the it China Product Product NATO
14:59:42 <HackEgo> zygohistomorphic prepromorphism/A zygohistomorphic prepromorphism is used when you really need both semi-mutual recursion and history and to repeatedly apply a natural transformation as you get deeper into the functor.
15:04:48 <HackEgo> morphism/A morphism is just a natural transformation between two functors on 1.
15:05:15 <HackEgo> unicide/Unicide is when people can't read your suicide note because they lack the proper font.
15:05:23 <HackEgo> california/California is pronounced "Caliphate-ornery-I-A"
15:09:02 * oerjan runs frantically through the logs trying to escape the trains
15:12:34 <FireFly> `learn Mario is a classic NP-complete problem invented by Nintendo.
15:12:38 <HackEgo> Learned 'mario': Mario is a classic NP-complete problem invented by Nintendo.
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15:40:01 <mauris> oerjan: i would say "eh" is closer to "right?" or something
15:40:35 <mauris> also hi boily (pronounces it rhyming with "oily")
15:40:37 <boily> hellørjan, maurhis.
15:40:56 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 36m 25s ago: which sounds about like trøndersk:sjø
15:40:56 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 1h 35m 49s ago: is canadian english:eh in the same category?
15:41:55 <boily> mauris: /bwali/, not /bɔjli/.
15:42:30 <mauris> it's still funny, though, how much "boily" looks like an english word
15:42:39 <oerjan> belloily. mauris: sorry you've been overruled by a genuine canadian.
15:44:13 * boily pat pat pats mauris
15:44:14 <mauris> "eh" has wider use though, right?! like tag questions. "that movie sucked, eh?"
15:44:32 <mauris> i don't know if that use is strictly canadian though
15:48:15 <boily> it's recognized as canadian.
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15:51:00 <HackEgo> bin/paste \ bin/pastefortunes \ bin/pastekarma \ bin/pastelog \ bin/pastelogs \ bin/pastenquotes \ bin/pastequotes \ bin/pastewisdom
15:51:14 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom
15:56:32 <FireFly> <boily> mauris: /bwali/, not /bɔjli/. ← oh no
16:00:24 <b_jonas> wait. they are doing an actual [censored] in the next M:tG set? They tried to do that once and figured they couldn't, but the argument looked suspicious to me, because it referred to interacting badly with a very small number of specific cards.
16:01:12 <b_jonas> next M:tG set = Oath of the Gatewatch, second set of the Battle for Zendikar block, to be released in 2016-01
16:01:45 <b_jonas> That was back in the Time Spiral block.
16:01:58 <b_jonas> Probably Planar Chaos, but I'm not sure, it's hard to get the sets right.
16:27:16 <b_jonas> also, this comes with a rules change that requires non-functionally errataing the template on about three hundred cards.
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16:46:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WhoScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46014&oldid=46010 * MCS-Kaijin * (+61)
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18:22:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WhoScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46015&oldid=46014 * MCS-Kaijin * (+279)
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18:35:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WhoScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46016&oldid=46015 * MCS-Kaijin * (+84)
18:47:40 <b_jonas> How will this change affect Mox Lotus?
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18:52:09 <zzo38> b_jonas: Unfortunately I do not know any of that stuff.
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18:57:51 <zzo38> Are you going to describe in more details how you mean?
19:10:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's a spoiler, so look at http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/solemn-oath-part-1-2015-12-28 and http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/oath-gatewatch-mechanics-2015-12-28
19:10:20 <b_jonas> and then ask again if what I said still doesn't make any sense
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19:26:10 <zzo38> Do you mean the colorless mana symbol and Wastes card? To me it seem you could delete rule 107.4c and add rule 106.12 (to go with 106.8 and 106.9) in order to have the correct effect?
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19:41:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, the colorless mana symbol, the Wastes card, and errataing all cards that directly mention adding colorless mana to your mana pool, which actually makes more than a percent of all M:tG cards.
19:46:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: and I think it takes a bit more rules changes than that. you need a rule like 106.8 to define the effect of Elemental Resonance, plus multiple rules about the {C} mana symbol itself, possibly a rule that clarifies that Wastes has an activated ability despite that it's not printed on it, and probably some reminder rules about old cards.
19:47:15 <zzo38> Just put the ability in the Oracle text.
19:47:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, but that would be a precedent, because so far the _first_ printing of any tournament-legal card always had the abilities printed on it
19:48:38 <b_jonas> Only special printings with a low number of copies, like http://magiccards.info/mprp/en/25.html , omit the ability entirely.
19:50:34 <b_jonas> 117.7 also needs a new arm
19:53:00 <zzo38> In my opinion no tournament-legal cards should ever omit the text. If it were up to me, such cards would not be allowed in tournaments, and foreign cards would also be prohibited, but proxies would be allowed as long as they contained the current text, do not contain artwork to be confused with other card, are in card sleeves, have equal physical properties to official cards, and are not offered for sale.
19:55:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: whoa. that latter would be very strange, allowing proxies all the time.
19:55:57 <b_jonas> unless you define "equal physical properties" in such a way that it's basically impossible to create such a proxy.
19:56:48 <b_jonas> I don't see a big problem with foreign cards or cards omitting text though, as many cards already have inaccurate text that has been errataed since in significant ways.
19:58:06 <zzo38> I am refering to such things as mass and size, and tolerances would be defined.
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19:59:35 <zzo38> But changing Magic: the Gathering like that is too much changed, but I would do what I describe if making my own card game.
20:01:36 <b_jonas> Obviously the most important part about physical properties is that when hidden, the cards should not be distinguishable, so you can't know what you'll draw.
20:01:58 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, that is the point of such a rule.
20:05:38 <zzo38> But there are other things I would do too in designing my own game, such as the rules would include mathematical formulas and computer codes too (possibly written as a literate program), and also each card will have computer codes associated with it, which are freely available to download. The game is meant both for with the computer and for without the computer.
20:05:59 <b_jonas> Well sure, for a different game that could make sense.
20:06:17 <b_jonas> M:tG is in a difficult position because it has so much historical cruft.
20:06:53 <zzo38> Yes, I know that is why I say.
20:07:10 <b_jonas> (Also because it's a commercial game.)
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20:16:14 <zzo38> Do you need account for my custom Magic: the Gathering cards?
20:16:35 <b_jonas> dunno, probably not right now
20:16:50 <HackEgo> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
20:16:59 <shachaf> Maybe that URL should be changed?
20:17:27 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, more like that text file should contain a link to the other page
20:17:31 <zzo38> It is the correct URL, however there is also another one for HTML with user comments, and there is also the SQLite database and schema file.
20:17:58 <zzo38> b_jonas: OK I will add that, thank you for the suggestion; I will do that in a few minutes
20:18:03 <b_jonas> The text file is discoverable because the directory is listed on gopher/http.
20:37:30 <zzo38> OK I added the link into that text file too now
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21:03:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WhoScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46017&oldid=46016 * MCS-Kaijin * (+227)
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21:13:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Subskin]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46018&oldid=45999 * 78.52.173.163 * (+10) /* Examples */
21:17:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Subskin]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46019&oldid=46018 * 78.52.173.163 * (-1)
21:18:23 <shachaf> There should be a direct link.
21:19:14 <shachaf> zzo38: I was talking to someone who knows you from somewhere.
21:19:21 <zzo38> You could add it if you want both link?
21:19:28 <zzo38> shachaf: Possibly ifMUD?
21:19:49 <zzo38> I am #20071 on ifMUD
21:19:52 <shachaf> `le/rn zzo38mtg.php/http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php
21:20:18 <zzo38> Apartment number 11011
21:20:51 <shachaf> oerjan: oh man, le/rn should look at its argv[0] and figure out whether it was called with one slash or two and use that separator on the text
21:24:28 <zzo38> shachaf: Do you know who it was that you talk to?
21:25:05 <shachaf> A Google employee. I don't know their username or number on ifMUD.
21:27:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WhoScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46020&oldid=46017 * MCS-Kaijin * (+184)
21:31:14 <b_jonas> that is a very strange ability
21:32:14 <zzo38> You can write more comments directly on the database if you have account. I explained before, how to request an account
21:32:37 <b_jonas> I wonder if there's a way to create an Island with a mana cost
21:33:44 <zzo38> Using various combinations of other effects it may be possible.
21:34:04 <b_jonas> Can you turn a non-land into a land without overwriting it completely?
21:35:31 <b_jonas> I don't think you can change the mana cost of an object without overwriting its other characteristics.
21:36:19 <mauris> zzo38: have you written any IF?
21:37:49 <zzo38> I have worked on some before but never quite did it. I have started on some stuff though I may continue, and I have written a Z-machine interpreter called ZORKMID.
21:39:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: the card file seems to contain a lot of new cards I hadn't seen before.
21:41:41 <zzo38> Yes there are new ones. Request account and then you can post comments into the database too.
21:42:28 <b_jonas> Ok, let me read back for the instructions
21:42:51 <zzo38> (Maybe I should add a section for general-purpose comments which are not applicable to any particular card, too. I do not want to add it into the "CARDS" table though, as that would confuse any kind of SQL query you may use to look up statistics and other stuff about the card.)
21:43:16 <b_jonas> "If you need an account, please do the following: Decide username. Put a colon afterward and then CustomMTG_zzo38 and then another colon and then the password. Tell me by private message the MD5 hash of this, and also tell me your username too, and then I will add it to my computer."
21:45:19 <zzo38> It may be possible to use the "htdigest" program (if you have it installed) to make this computation.
21:48:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm requesting a user then. my username is b_jonas and the hex MD5 sum computed above is 512bb4804b927c34a58a9d0657084c5b
21:48:46 <b_jonas> hmm wait, I have to tell in private message
21:49:30 <b_jonas> You'll have to explain my how to log in.
21:50:09 <b_jonas> It doesn't seem obvious from the webpage.
21:50:48 <zzo38> It will ask you as soon as you try to send a comment. After that, you don't have to type the username/password again during the same session.
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22:24:33 <zzo38> In case you are trying to post a comment then please tell me if you have a difficulty to do so.
22:38:28 <hppavilion[1]> Are there any number systems that do /not/ include the Reflexive Property?
22:44:20 <\oren\> stupid storm knocked down the telephone lines up north, I couldn't get internet until i got home
22:46:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WhoScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46021&oldid=46020 * MCS-Kaijin * (+810)
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22:49:48 <hppavilion[1]> How about fuzzy sets where the membership is any real number? Fuzzy bags, basically
22:49:57 <hppavilion[1]> Even better, fuzzy set where membership is a Complex Number
22:55:13 <oerjan> you could go for |z| <= 1 (i.e. a^2 + b^2 <= 1), like in quantum mechanics.
22:57:59 <oerjan> however, actually no, because in quantum mechanics you don't take the square root to find the "real" probability.
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23:15:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jelly]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46022 * 64.58.7.42 * (+39) Created page with "https://github.com/DennisMitchell/jelly"
23:18:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jelly]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46023&oldid=46022 * 64.58.7.42 * (+184)
23:19:23 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ [[ "$1" = */* ]] || exit \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | cut -d / -f 1) \ [ -z "$topic" ] && exit 1 \ value=$(echo "$1" | cut -d / -f 2-) \ echo "$value" > wisdom/"$topic" && echo "Learned «$topic»"
23:20:35 <oerjan> `` /bin//bash -c 'echo $0'
23:20:51 <oerjan> shachaf: looks plausible
23:21:01 <oerjan> but beyond my bash skills
23:21:15 <shachaf> i was hoping you'd do it twh
23:23:25 <shachaf> instead you can do it the mk way
23:23:33 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
23:23:50 <shachaf> hmm, i wonder whether that works when the separator is a variable
23:25:47 <shachaf> could also be time to abashndon
23:27:09 <oerjan> why doesn't mk support newlines, or does it
23:27:53 <oerjan> i dunno, but it's awkward to make a larger script without it
23:28:32 <shachaf> what do you mean by newlines
23:28:54 <oerjan> making a file that contains more than line hth
23:29:46 <shachaf> `` mk $'/tmp/test//a\nb'; xxd /tmp/test
23:29:47 <HackEgo> /tmp/test \ 0000000: 610a 620a a.b.
23:35:34 <hppavilion[1]> It's a little derpy on the West and South walls, but it works!
23:37:44 <fizzie> The pattern in bash's ${var#pattern} expansion (and ditto for ##, %, %%) can contain variables that get expanded, yes.
23:38:23 <fizzie> `` t="abc"; u="b"; echo ${t#*$u}
23:39:58 <shachaf> `` t="ab cd"; u="b c"; echo ${t#*$u}
23:40:05 <shachaf> No need to quote it, even?
23:46:10 <hppavilion[1]> Like cat, but duplicate every vowel an arbitrary (preferably random) number of times
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23:56:01 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: What if someone is using a language in which the set of vowels is different?
23:56:36 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Maybe pseudorandom, so the same input always yields the same output
23:57:57 <hppavilion[1]> You get bonus points for every additional language allowed, which one is used being asked for at startup
23:58:14 <FreeFull> I'm thinking the random number generation would be seeded by the input
23:58:28 <FreeFull> So changing a byte at the start will change all the subsequent output
00:02:34 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Have any ideas for esoteric hashing functions?
00:02:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: return: not found
00:04:51 <hppavilion[1]> There's also the "Just pretend it's an int" hashing function for floats
00:06:00 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: I think it'd be fun to write a C function which has a return 0; at the end, no other return statements, and yet returns something different from 0
00:07:40 <FreeFull> I think so, if you try hard enough
00:08:05 <FreeFull> The problem is that executable memory usually isn't writeable
00:08:09 <FreeFull> So you'd need to do something about that
00:12:37 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Are there any number systems that do /not/ include the Reflexive Property? <hppavilion[1]> Or the transitive property? <-- IEEE 754 HTH
00:12:48 <fizzie> You could also go by the route of doing something that's both undefined and sufficiently confusing to the compiler.
00:13:05 <shachaf> oerjan: hppavilion[1] said "number systems" hth
00:13:22 <oerjan> or wait, maybe it's still transitive.
00:13:43 <shachaf> which relation are you talking about? equality?
00:13:50 <oerjan> i'm sure IEEE 754 counts as a number system in some horrible reality.
00:14:01 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yes, I already talked about that on ##math
00:14:42 <oerjan> btw i think that "nullity" thing that went around a few years ago counts?
00:16:36 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it was a rather lousy attempt to define division by 0 that someone made. honestly i don't think i actually read it, but i recall it mentioned it wasn't even equal to itself.
00:16:59 <shachaf> oerjan: you mean it was a solution to a 1200-year-old problem
00:17:16 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Would you happen to have a linky for a poor, bad-at-googling soul?
00:17:26 * oerjan points hppavilion[1] to shachaf as the expert
00:17:33 <shachaf> http://www.bbc.co.uk/berkshire/content/articles/2006/12/06/divide_zero_feature.shtml hth
00:17:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: how can i have a link when i never read it that makes no sense hth
00:17:57 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Anderson_(computer_scientist)#Transreal_arithmetic
00:18:04 <shachaf> maybe this belongs in the other #esoteric
00:19:52 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh god, he added infinity and minus infinity (and nullity)
00:20:03 <hppavilion[1]> But he didn't add, for example, 2*infinity or sqrt(infinity)
00:21:11 <shachaf> there's nothing wrong with compactifications, yo
00:21:30 <oerjan> for a better attempt, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_theory
00:21:44 <oerjan> that's not messing with equality, though.
00:21:45 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_real_number_line and stuff, man
00:23:09 <hppavilion[1]> Mathematics needs a symbol for "x is not necessarily equal to y, but it could be if you tried /really/ hard"
00:23:25 <hppavilion[1]> (e.g. x!=x in most cases, but there are a few cases where it is.)
00:25:03 <MDude> Oh good, the wheel thingy is an idea already.
00:26:40 <hppavilion[1]> "If your heart pacemaker divides by zero, you're dead"
00:26:52 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently, he's never heard of a try..except statement
00:28:11 <hppavilion[1]> They have the schoolchildren actually convinced this is mathematical fact
00:28:24 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, sure, math allows you to just make shit up if you feel like it
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01:30:52 <\oren\> well i mean in ieee floats, 1/0 is infinity
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01:34:44 <\oren\> and ieee complexes have 8 different infinities
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02:44:38 <shachaf> Taneb: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247365 hth
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02:52:18 <shachaf> oerjan: turns out the thing my cat ate wasn't a placenta but an amnion hth
02:52:23 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnion
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02:58:50 <hppavilion[2]> According to BBC, "He has also reinvented computing..."
02:59:21 <hppavilion[2]> The perspex can be understood in many ways. ...and an instruction for a machine that is more powerful than the Turing machine.
03:01:13 <hppavilion[2]> The Guardian can't even work up the effort to represent 0^0 using proper exponents
03:02:05 <hppavilion[2]> The Guardian claims that mathematicians are different from computer scientists
03:03:14 <hppavilion[2]> "Anyway, we eagerly await his contribution to the knotty problem of the square root of -1."
03:05:51 <MDude> Yes, that's often the case with journalism.
03:06:07 <MDude> I'll have to remember that, when writing fiction, to have in-universe news articles be written poorly.
03:06:17 <hppavilion[2]> "Anderson has been trying to market his ideas for transreal arithmetic and "Perspex machines" to investors. He claims that his work can produce computers which run "orders of magnitude faster than today's computers".[7][12] He has also claimed that it can help solve such problems as quantum gravity,[7] the mind-body connection,[13] consciousness[13] and free will.[13]"
03:09:53 <MDude> Dr. Anderson sounds like a cool guy and I reccomend he keep on being completely ridiculous.
03:10:13 <MDude> Though Perspex sounds more like a brand of deodorant.
03:11:07 <MDude> If it's such a good computer, I suggest making a server farm first and offering remote services on it.
03:12:01 <MDude> That way he doens't need to worry about selling the machine itself, just its capacity to compute.
03:12:09 <MDude> Mine bitcoins on it maybe.
03:14:00 <hppavilion[2]> Where can I find a paper that goes WAY too far with Peano Arithmetic?
03:14:11 <zgrep> MDude: Wouldn't it be better to simply factor giant numbers?
03:14:42 <zgrep> s/better/more fun, exciting, and valuable/
03:15:12 <pikhq> I don't know that quantum computing even helps with Bitcoin.
03:15:23 <MDude> Possibly, at first anyway.
03:15:45 <MDude> If bitcoins are based on factoring, it will.
03:16:00 <diginet> isn't it based on elliptic curves?
03:16:18 <pikhq> Oh, wait, there is the ECDSA signature thing.
03:16:49 <diginet> popular tech media reporting on quantum computing makes me rage
03:16:51 <pikhq> That actually is vulnerable to quantum computers.
03:17:23 <pikhq> I was just thinking SHA-256.
03:17:29 <diginet> pikhq: wait, I thought most hash functions as of yet are quantum-secure?
03:17:36 <hppavilion[2]> Everything is vulnerable to rock-based cellular automaton computers, given long enough
03:17:43 <diginet> isn't ECDSA just an implementation detail of its protocol?
03:18:06 <diginet> I'm increasingly skeptical quantum computers will ever come to fruition
03:18:08 <pikhq> No, ECDSA is used for wallets.
03:19:00 <pikhq> Still, I think that's one of the less interesting uses of breaking almost all crypto on the planet.
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03:37:11 <hppavilion[2]> I've decided to do a playthrough of the λ-calculus xD
03:39:39 <zgrep> diginet: Why's that? (re: increasingly skeptical)
03:40:03 <diginet> zgrep: I don't necessary have a good reason, just a hunch
03:40:10 <diginet> mostly because one hasn't appeared yet
03:40:25 <zgrep> Well, laptops didn't appear immediately either. We first had computers that filled an entire room.
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03:40:46 <diginet> true, although I don't think it's quite comparable
03:40:54 <diginet> quantum computers, as a concept, are fairly old
03:41:34 <zgrep> Though it's not quite comparable, so was the concept of a computer. :P
03:42:18 <hppavilion[2]> Where `1 = λx.x`, would `2 = λs.1` be correct in λ-calculus?
03:42:41 <diginet> zgrep: true, I dunno, I'm willing to be disproven, I'm just not as confident as I once was
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03:43:10 <zgrep> diginet: Well, progress is slowly, but I think most definitely, being made. Remain hopeful! :P
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04:31:02 <MDude> Oh, the thing Anderson was doing is different from projective infinity, which seems more like what I was thinking.
04:33:32 <MDude> I wonder if it would make sense to further extend that with irrational numbers to make a number dougnut.
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06:15:30 <FreeFull> MDream: Fun fact: I've had Anderson teach one of my modules for Computer Science
06:17:59 <hppavilion[2]> I'm doing a λ-calculus playthrough. I don't know why I keep being surprised when things work
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07:22:15 <qpwoeiruty> Is it possible to do strlen with Brainfuck?
07:24:41 <qpwoeiruty> Any idea how to implement it... I have been reading the assembly pseudo code
07:25:32 <coppro> eh, haven't thought about it
07:25:36 <coppro> but BF is TC so it's doable
07:26:11 <qpwoeiruty> coppro: would it take a lot of time in your opinion?
07:26:25 <coppro> I could probably do it in 10 minutes?
07:27:42 <qpwoeiruty> Well I was just hoping for a rough idea...any help is great.
07:28:06 <coppro> you will probably need to move the string as you process it
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07:28:17 <coppro> you can't easily move back to your data, so you need to move the data with you
07:29:22 <coppro> I'd start with something like [count][scratch][string], and at each stage move the count+1 to the scratch, zero the count, move the first character of the string to the count space, then zero the first character of the string
07:29:26 <coppro> then move forward one cell and repeat
07:31:56 <qpwoeiruty> Ok, thanks. Kinda late here. Maybe I'll be back another time. Just a project idea.
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08:04:46 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make a production-strength programming language
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08:52:18 <shachaf> A graph is just a compact representation of a tree.
09:10:30 <zzo38> shachaf: What context? How are you meaning?
09:10:52 <zzo38> It is a Phyrexian mana symbol.
09:11:05 <zzo38> You can pay either one mana of that color, or you can pay 2 life.
09:12:38 <zzo38> It is even mentioned in the rules for Magic: the Gathering.
09:14:48 <shachaf> It's a bit odd that it's on all colors. Seems like a pretty black ability to me.
09:16:39 <zzo38> Yes I suppose so, but it is on all colors, and is still meaningful in such case too. Anyways, all colors can be in lands that damage you for activating them.
09:17:20 <zzo38> The oldest Phyrexian cards were black, but this was before Phyrexian mana was invented, and now you can find Phyrexian cards in all colors (including black).
09:18:06 <b_jonas> shachaf: don't forget that the Phyrexian blight is spreading. in SOM, infect is only on black and green; in MBS and NPH, it's on all colors.
09:18:30 <shachaf> I never played during that block so I didn't keep track.
09:19:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: the story of the block is that the Phyrexians attack Mirrodin, and by the end of the block, they _win_
09:20:00 <b_jonas> so they start to turn everything on mirrodin, artifacts and things colored by all five suns, to a twisted phyerxian counterpart
09:20:32 <b_jonas> including Darksteel Colossus to Blightsteel Colossus
09:27:12 <HackEgo> ping: unknown host howdns.works
09:27:15 <b_jonas> well, it uses some sort of UDP and TCP thingies and servers and... I dunno
09:27:55 <b_jonas> it's that kind of DNS right, not the other, because the other is called DNA in English?
09:28:00 <Taneb> shachaf, I am aware of Teneb the Harvester
09:39:06 <zgrep> Question to those of you who know, how would a language based on dependent types do stuff with input that's unknown, say user input or from a TCP connection... would it just implement the checks into the program so that it checks it at runtime for unknown stuff?
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09:40:09 <shachaf> I think it would do similar things to other languages with types that can express things you want.
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09:50:27 <zzo38> shachaf: If you wanted an account on my card file (in order to add your own comments) then please notify me.
09:50:29 <zzo38> If you have the program "htdigest" on your computer then you can make the hash code needed to send a comment on my custom card file, by the command "htdigest -c /dev/stdout CustomMTG_zzo38" and then your username. (Otherwise, you can figure out your own way to do the calculation I mentioned.)
09:50:47 <zzo38> (Send the result to me by private message.)
09:52:02 <zzo38> I have read of different kind of arguments that the universe is or is not infinite, although I have also thought of one (but am not sure about its validity).
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09:53:02 <shachaf> That sounds like too much work to me.
09:53:10 <shachaf> Why not use a typical account registration system?
09:53:15 <shachaf> Or not require accounts to be registered?
09:53:28 <zzo38> shachaf: In order to avoid spam messages
09:53:44 <shachaf> Have you gotten spam messages?
09:54:09 <zzo38> I have before, in a different webpage that did not require registration
09:54:54 <zzo38> Possibly though a JavaScript program can also be written to perform the calculation and then you can tell me the response of that instead; there can be more than one program to do.
09:55:45 <zzo38> If you are trying to move yourself forward, it takes some amount of energy; to move everything else in the universe backward by the same amount instead would require more energy, but the infinite sum might result in a finite total.
09:55:58 <zzo38> (Probably this is all wrong.)
09:57:10 <zzo38> (Actually I am sure it is, but nevertheless it is what I thought of one day)
09:59:00 <zzo38> shachaf: I know that b_jonas has made that calculation already, and hopefully you have the software to do too, isn't it?
09:59:13 <shachaf> I do, but it seems like too much trouble.
09:59:20 <shachaf> I haven't had a great need to comment. I can use IRC.
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10:01:39 <zzo38> I have found other way to require the registration to often be complicated so I do this way instead; this way I can process the registration by myself and don't need to worry about spam registration account either, since they will not be registration generally (and if it is, I can delete it anyways).
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10:04:38 <zzo38> If we put comment in there then even other people can make the reply of comment too in the same file.
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11:30:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:LegionMammal978/Interpreters/Kangaroo]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46024 * LegionMammal978 * (+1868) Created page with "<pre> using System; using System.Collections.Generic; using System.IO; using System.Text.RegularExpressions; /* Error codes: * 0 - success * 1 - non-existant source file *..."
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12:32:02 <HackEgo> ghoul/Ghouls are undead that eat BRAINS. So basically, bog standard undead like zombies or wights, but with some fancy back story in the book that nobody reads.
12:32:08 <HackEgo> yeeeeeeeesh/See yeeeeeeesh.
12:32:13 <HackEgo> for further details for futher details./See `? for further details for futher details.
12:33:09 <HackEgo> vi/vi is in a relationship with emacs.
12:36:06 <HackEgo> password/The password of the month is 'PlayItSweetly,TakeMeDown,Oh,Jazzman'
12:36:55 <HackEgo> mroman oerjan oerjan oerjan mroman_
12:37:23 <FireFly> I somehow doubt that it is actually updated monthly
12:38:19 <b_jonas> `? correcthorsebatterystaple
12:38:20 <HackEgo> correcthorsebatterystaple? ¯\(°_o)/¯
12:40:51 <b_jonas> `? d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e
12:40:53 <HackEgo> d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e? ¯\(°_o)/¯
12:41:27 <b_jonas> `? 5f4dcc3b5aa765d61d8327deb882cf99
12:41:28 <HackEgo> 5f4dcc3b5aa765d61d8327deb882cf99? ¯\(°_o)/¯
12:52:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ABCD]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46025&oldid=44545 * LegionMammal978 * (-2)
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13:16:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jelly]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46026&oldid=46023 * 78.52.164.106 * (+25)
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17:59:17 <lambdabot> CYQB 291745Z 06016G24KT 1 1/4SM R06/5000FT/U -SN DRSN VV011 M10/M13 A3032 RMK SN8 SLP277
18:00:04 <lambdabot> CYYZ 291741Z 05006KT 5SM -DZ BR OVC006 03/02 A2980 RMK ST8 SLP100
18:13:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46027&oldid=45965 * 70.190.166.108 * (+782) add Barely, Hanoi Love, Linguine, Numberix, Spaghetti
18:15:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46028&oldid=38057 * B jonas * (+198)
18:32:39 <lambdabot> EGLL 291820Z AUTO 19012KT 150V230 9999 FEW022 10/07 Q1021
18:32:55 <fizzie> Apparently it'll start getting colder now.
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18:36:38 <lambdabot> ESSA 291820Z 12005KT 9999 SCT029 M04/M06 Q1042 R01L/410165 R08/410156 R01R/410163 NOSIG
18:36:56 <lambdabot> ESSB 291820Z 13003KT 9999 SCT034 M06/M06 Q1042 R12/19//63
18:39:30 <coppro> damn Sir Andrew Lloyd Webber
18:39:48 <HackEgo> the/the Toe of Harriness's Enclosure
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19:55:30 <lambdabot> *** "gander" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
19:55:37 <fizzie> If that's the only sense of the word, where does "take a gander" come from?
19:55:51 <fizzie> I somehow skipped over a row.
19:55:56 <fizzie> "First recorded in 1887, based on craning the neck like a goose."
20:00:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Object-Oriented Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46029&oldid=44541 * 78.52.164.106 * (+9) three months, no edit, two sentences, stub
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20:14:20 <hppavilion[1]> Or more generally, how do I simply convert between λ-calculus and SK?
20:14:57 <\oren\> i think there's an article on the wiki that says how
20:16:42 <\oren\> http://esolangs.org/wiki/S_and_K_Turing-completeness_proof
20:17:24 <\oren\> it's a proof by conversion from λ calculus to ski logic
20:19:47 <\oren\> which works by having expressions which are half λ and half ski, and applyin rules until there's noting left but ski.
20:21:07 <\oren\> so really it's a proof that any expression composed of λ and sk, including expressions that are entirely sk, can be converted to entirely λ
20:21:38 <\oren\> I hink we've ;earned somthing today
20:25:39 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: see also the Mockingbird book, as well as http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/
20:26:12 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Right, should have thought to check there given that I already have that tab open xD
20:27:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S and K Turing-completeness proof]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46030&oldid=35768 * B jonas * (+159)
20:41:08 <\oren\> I got my new zipper headphones1
20:46:17 <boily> he\\oren\. what are zipper headphones?
20:50:05 <\oren\> headphones that have a zipper between the two wires leading to your ears
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20:52:22 <\oren\> I got two sets for a dollar each
20:54:53 <boily> a reasonable price.
20:54:56 <lambdabot> CYQB 292039Z 07022G29KT 3/4SM R06/4000VP6000FT/D -SN BLSN BKN006 OVC015 M10/M12 A3027 RMK SN6SF1SC1 /S02/ SLP258
20:55:57 <FireFly> Huh. Sounds like a rather neat idea, why have I never seen that before?
20:56:04 <FireFly> headphones with zippers, I mean
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20:58:45 <boily> I have seen them a few times, but they don't seem to be very popular here. nearly everybody with something around their ears is on a pair of Beats or Sony.
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21:02:31 <hppavilion[1]> I figured out how to implement OR in combinatory logic, given the standard constructions of T and F as T=K, F=K(SKK)
21:02:49 <hppavilion[1]> Which is obviously not a huge achievement but it made me happy!
21:03:15 <hppavilion[1]> (I did have to find a combinator that did something I needed, specifically one of the form `?abc = bca`)
21:03:56 <boily> hppavellon[1]. have you explored the B, C and W combinators?
21:04:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Helge Von Koch * New user account
21:04:50 <FireFly> I see quite a few porta pro's here
21:04:57 <FireFly> of course, that's not in-ear
21:05:05 <FireFly> I don't like in-ear headphones myself though
21:05:16 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Yes, I already have those. Or do you mean explored them alone?
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21:05:41 <hppavilion[1]> My solcution was actually C [R True], where R is the aforementioned combinator I needed
21:06:39 <hppavilion[1]> And True is, of course, K (I named it True instead of T because there was a T combinator needed to implement R)
21:08:24 <boily> FireFly: I was a in-ear user while I was in school (small, portative), but they are far from being confortable. and they snag on everything. and during winter they conduct painful ESDs to your sensitive earlobes.
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21:09:01 <FireFly> I saw one of them cat-ear headphones recently when commuting
21:09:40 <FireFly> But that's more a novelty thing I guess
21:13:23 <boily> I'm looking for a pair of undisintegrating headphones, without any bluetooth, usb, gimmicks, mikes, buttons...
21:13:46 <boily> something well-built, comfy, and with a good frequency profile.
21:13:54 <boily> and of course, under 200$.
21:18:32 <\oren\> the zipper headphones are pretty damn strudy
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21:29:25 <fizzie> boily: I don't know if you want big or small, open or closed, but I've been quite happy with my Sennheiser HD 558's.
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21:31:49 <fizzie> Admittedly I haven't had these for terribly long, so I can't be entirely sure whether they'll start disintegrating. Also I didn't read any of the previous discussion; I don't think these would be very good for portabilizing around.
21:32:20 <\oren\> http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=zipper+headphones
21:32:38 <\oren\> I bought them for a dollar
21:33:52 <fizzie> I don't think I've seen zipper headphones live, but there was a mention of the concept as a novel idea somewhere.
21:36:56 <\oren\> in china you can get things prototyped in like a week from what I hear
21:38:57 <\oren\> so someone in shenzhen might have heard about it and gone "I know who to call to get that made."
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21:39:46 <HackEgo> eliot/Eliot inverted cats, then Taneb stole his inversion.
21:40:21 <\oren\> Maybe if I have an idea, it would be easier to mass-email chinese manufacutrers it, then buy it on ebay, than to start a company.
21:41:02 <\oren\> I'll have to see if that works some time
21:41:56 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. on the smaller end, closed.
21:42:41 <boily> mynamello: https://nomnomnomicon.wordpress.com/ ?
21:46:20 <fizzie> boily: I used to have HD 280 Pro's from the same company (not so small, but closed), but the headband padding started to go all bad after a scant decade.
21:48:19 <fizzie> And I got a pair of Sony "Pro" (it's always about pro) MDR7506 headphones for work (closed since I thought it'd be a noisier place), and they've been fine so far.
21:49:16 <fizzie> It says "Professional" on a sticker right there on the headphones, and the box has a schematic diagram on it, that's how you know it's a serious tool instead of a frivolous toy.
21:49:26 <boily> I got a pair of MDR-V55 at work. cheap, useful, and solid.
21:50:13 <boily> are there any products out there that are recursively professional? like proprofessional?
22:03:27 <MDude> First, I'd look for something that's called professional but not considered professional enough.
22:03:44 <MDude> Since then there'd be demand for an extra professional version.
22:04:38 <MDude> Maybe there are people who proffesionally train professionalism.
22:05:31 <MDude> I also considered having things I want made by Chinese manufacturers, but I think they might not go for just any idea.
22:06:14 <MDude> Since if it's not already getting sold lucratively, then how do they know it's worth copying?
22:06:29 <MDude> I haven't tried though, so maybe they'd give it a shot if it looks cool.
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22:29:28 <fizzie> There's already a term for "professional but not quite professional": those are "prosumer" things.
22:40:49 <tswett> I just thought of another one of those stupid Magic card ideas.
22:41:27 <tswett> Block Out. 2U. Enchantment - Aura. Enchant spell. If enchanted spell would resolve, exile it instead.
22:41:37 <tswett> ...It should have flash, too.
22:42:12 <b_jonas> tswett: isn't that generally worse than a Cancel?
22:42:35 <b_jonas> it can counter any spell, it's only slightly weaker than Cancel
22:42:53 <b_jonas> (or more, but then it's useless)
22:42:53 <tswett> Yeah, you're probably right.
22:43:14 <b_jonas> maybe add some restriction to it, then you can cost it lower. there's a lot of restricted counterspells out there.
22:44:23 <b_jonas> you don't need severe restrictions to make it 2U
22:44:33 <b_jonas> the counterspells for {1U} are more restricted, obviously
22:45:32 <tswett> Magnet. 2UU. Enchantment - Aura. Enchant Aura enchantment. When Magnet enters the battlefield, attach enchanted enchantment to Magnet. Enchanted enchantment has "Enchant enchantment named 'Magnet'" and loses all other enchant abilities.
22:47:05 <tswett> Wait, I don't think that would work as worded.
22:47:13 <b_jonas> there's a lot of soft-counters that counter a spell unless the opponent pays some amount of generic mana, with some advantage, for 2U
22:48:26 <tswett> When you play Magnet on an enchantment, that enchantment will become unable to enchant whatever it's enchanting (unless it's enchanting a Magnet) and go to the graveyard as a state-based action.
22:48:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46031&oldid=45914 * Luis Mendo * (+110) /* Language specification and compiler */
22:49:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46032&oldid=46031 * Luis Mendo * (+2) /* Fibonacci sequence */
22:49:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46033&oldid=46032 * Luis Mendo * (-1) /* Fibonacci sequence */
22:50:22 <tswett> I think there are several problems, actually.
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22:52:05 <tswett> Magnet. 2UU. Enchantment - Aura. Enchant Aura enchantment. Enchanted enchantment has "Enchant object or player" and loses all other enchant abilities. When Magnet enters the battlefield, attach enchanted enchantment to Magnet, and that enchantment loses "Enchant object or player" and gains "Enchant enchantment named 'Magnet'".
22:53:19 <b_jonas> tswett: does this really need two steps of changing the ability? why wouldn't you just change the ability first, then attach.
22:53:52 <tswett> Mm... good point. Revision three.
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22:53:53 <b_jonas> tswett: mind you, I think even that could have problems, toying with enchant abilities is dangerous, but I don't see why you need the extra step.
22:54:04 <b_jonas> also, drop the apostrophes
22:54:20 <b_jonas> M:tG uses quotation marks around abilities, but not around names
22:54:25 <tswett> Magnet. 2UU. Enchantment - Aura. Enchant Aura enchantment. When Magnet enters the battlefield, attach enchanted enchantment to Magnet, and that enchantment gains "Enchant enchantment named Magnet" and loses all other enchant abilities.
22:54:59 <b_jonas> tswett: shouldn't that be in the opposite order?
22:55:07 <b_jonas> that is, first change the ability, then attach
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22:55:41 <b_jonas> maybe they have to be simultanous
22:55:53 <b_jonas> so maybe you do need the two steps or simultanouity
22:56:03 <tswett> I think you were right the first time.
22:56:05 <b_jonas> I wouldn't dare to do something like this
22:56:07 <tswett> First change the ability, then attach.
22:56:33 <tswett> It's not possible to attach an Aura to an illegal target, but it's possible for an Aura to *be* attached to an illegal target.
22:56:45 <tswett> It just dies as a state-based action.
22:57:11 <b_jonas> tswett: I'm not sure it's possible. isn't there a "can't" somewhere, so it can't even stay attached, but dies only later/
22:58:02 <b_jonas> But my bigger problem isn't how it stays attached. It's that the enchantment might have an ability that normally refers to an object in another zone or a player or something else, and now will try to refer to a permanent.
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22:58:49 <tswett> Looks like no, there's nothing prohibiting an Aura from momentarily enchanting an illegal target.
22:59:16 <tswett> The text of Animate Dead has it momentarily enchanting an illegal target.
22:59:37 <b_jonas> If you turned the enchantment to a copy of something, so it definitely doesn't have any abilities remaining, then it would be fine, but that's usually a bit of an overkill compared to just exiling it.
22:59:40 <tswett> When it enters the battlefield, it changes its own enchant ability and then changes what it's attached to.
23:00:11 <b_jonas> that's the card with the longest oracle text these days
23:00:36 <b_jonas> maybe some double-faced planeswalkers have more text
23:00:48 <tswett> Ooh boy, now I want to find the card with the longest Oracle text.
23:00:55 <b_jonas> but yes, you're probably right
23:01:12 <b_jonas> But still, I don't like this card even if it does usually stay attached.
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23:02:29 <tswett> "Variable Colorless, Tap: Put a charge counter on Ice Cauldron and exile a nonland card from your hand. You may cast that card for as long as it remains exiled. Note the type and amount of mana spent to pay this activation cost. Activate this ability only if there are no charge counters on Ice Cauldron.
23:02:29 <tswett> Tap, Remove a charge counter from Ice Cauldron: Add Ice Cauldron's last noted type and amount of mana to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast the last card exiled with Ice Cauldron."
23:03:36 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, that's among the longest too. but I think you mangled its text.
23:03:54 <b_jonas> you probably mean "{X}, {T}:" instead of "Variable Colorless, Tap:"
23:04:00 <b_jonas> then it's slightly less long
23:05:54 <b_jonas> Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh has lots of oracle text if you count it together with the flip side
23:06:00 <tswett> Properly, they should be the Unicode characters U+24CD VARIABLE COLORLESS and U+27F3 TAP.
23:08:04 <b_jonas> the other double-sided planeswalkers are long too (Kytheon, Hero of Akros; Jace, Vryn's Prodigy; Liliana, Heretical Healer; Nissa, Vastwood Seer)
23:08:10 <b_jonas> I don't know which one is the longest
23:08:35 <b_jonas> Then there's Greater Morphling of course
23:18:51 <hppavilion[2]> Your Hacker Name: The color of shirt you're wearing right now, concatenated with your email password
23:19:24 <hppavilion[2]> (OK, that's not my REAL email password. I'm not THAT incredibly stupid)
23:20:08 <FireFly> BlackWalrusesAreAmazingToo
23:22:50 <boily> WhiteIThinkThereAreAlbinoWalruses
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23:30:30 <\oren\> well charmander was my email password during public school
23:30:46 <\oren\> now it's not a pokemon anymore
23:30:57 <haavard> Hi, my name is Yellow *******
23:33:39 <\oren\> nor does my email adress end in @watson.math.yorku.ca anymore
23:36:04 <boily> \oren\: you had a watson after the @?
23:36:05 <\oren\> it was garumon for a few weeks then i changed it back
23:36:32 <\oren\> i had an address on my dad's server, which still exists.
23:36:49 <\oren\> probably the address also still exists
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23:39:39 <FireFly> \oren\: I'm pretty sure Charmander is still a pokemon
23:41:53 <shachaf> it's kind of like an onion
23:41:58 <boily> there are 151 pokémons. Charmander is one of them.
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00:00:49 <oerjan> <diginet> I'm increasingly skeptical quantum computers will ever come to fruition <-- i'm optimistic, because i read shtetl-optimized hth
00:01:38 <oerjan> although with the possible option of "will hit some unknown physical obstacle which will _itself_ revolutionize science"
00:02:44 * oerjan notes diginet is 17 hours idle but finds @tell excessive.
00:07:38 <oerjan> @tell diginet <diginet> mostly because one hasn't appeared yet <-- note that the really good theory for quantum computers requires reaching a reliability threshold before you can use error correction at _all_, and experiments have only _just_ started getting past that point.
00:25:06 <oerjan> <hppavilion[2]> 1 = λs.0, 0 = λs.I, I = λx.x <-- i have a hunch that representation will be hard to use, especially if the numbers are unbounded
00:25:50 <oerjan> well that's not church numerals, at least
00:26:13 <oerjan> but church numerals are probably not the only possible representation.
00:26:54 <oerjan> you mean n+1 = λs.sn ?
00:26:55 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Of course; I read an article the other day where someone defined numbers as lists of T=
00:27:33 <hppavilion[2]> I basically used church numerals in general but wrote the initial definition wrong
00:27:53 <oerjan> um that's not what i call church numerals either
00:28:41 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Basically, I'm trying to say church numerals but I forgot how they work
00:28:54 <hppavilion[2]> They used the binary list notation because they were going for the Lambda Calcular equivalent of adding on a TM
00:29:24 <oerjan> n = λfx.f(f(f(...(f(x))))) hth
00:29:55 <hppavilion[2]> Because λ-calculus's normal church numeral representation is horribly inefficient, and the Church-Turing Thesis or whatever says that all TC systems can do problems at the same rate or something like that
00:30:30 <hppavilion[2]> Like, if it can be done in Polynomial time on a TM, then it can be done in Polynomial Time in any equivalent system, including things like Minsky Machines and, of course, the λ-calculus
00:30:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: that's simply wrong.
00:30:51 <oerjan> minsky machines have exponential slowdown.
00:30:59 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: There's some theorem that says what I'm trying to get at
00:33:24 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Ah, it's that anything that can be efficiently calculated can be efficiently calculated on a TM, or equivalently in λ-calculus. That's the strong Church-Turing Thesis
00:34:10 <hppavilion[2]> As a demonstration, he implemented a more efficient version of addition in λ-calculus
00:34:15 <oerjan> quantum computers are theorized to violate that btw
00:34:16 <hppavilion[2]> http://useless-factor.blogspot.com/2007/04/thoughts-on-church-numerals.html
00:35:07 <hppavilion[2]> (I was about to say that I secretly hope that the Church-Turing Thesis is completely wrong, to the point of there being infinitely many machines more powerful than a TM, and preferably not following some predefined pattern)
00:35:11 <oerjan> yes, because they can do e.g. factorization in polynomial time, which is theorized not to be possible in polynomial time with a TM
00:35:44 <oerjan> also, i've heard that called the Extended Church-Turing Thesis over at scott aaronson's blog.
00:35:44 <hppavilion[2]> Is that, like, the church-quantum-turing thesis or something? Is there some metaquantum computer with a similar increase? xD
00:36:29 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Of course, quantum computers aren't "real" CS because they rely on the universe being shittily designed and a buggy piece of crap
00:36:45 <oerjan> well the revised thesis would be that a quantum computer is optimal, since it is believed to be able to simulate any physical system.
00:37:30 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Is there such thing as a Stringy Computer that relies on String Theory? xD
00:37:31 <zgrep> Sounds like it would really help weather forecasters.
00:37:42 <hppavilion[2]> zgrep: As long as they enter ALL of the decimal places
00:37:51 <oerjan> "this universe is too fast, it must be buggy" O KAY
00:38:21 <zgrep> "Let's scrap it and start over. Bring me some more energy, will you?"
00:38:35 <hppavilion[2]> If I were a god, I would create a universe in which all problems are solvable in n***n time
00:38:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: i dunno, although there's some theory about closed timelike loops from general relativity, if they existed might allow even greater efficiency.
00:39:03 <oerjan> (basically, time traveling computation)
00:39:09 <hppavilion[2]> I would not be a kind god to my universe's programmers.
00:39:30 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: My god. I've been meaning to write a Wiki article on chronos.py, the Python library for time travel
00:39:56 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: The same thing could be said about using Narnia for computation
00:42:03 <oerjan> well narnia's relative speed was somewhat unpredictable. i recall there was a point in The Last Battle where it was actually slower than Earth.
00:42:57 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Should I base Chronos on the wormhole-based timetravel? The one where you need to have a wormhole setup first to travel back through it?
00:44:53 <oerjan> it's a nice way of solving the paradox of why we haven't noticed any time travelers yet.
00:45:21 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: It's also the most likely solution I know of for time travel
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00:46:16 * oerjan gets an urge to link to the relevant tvtropes page
00:47:15 <oerjan> stupid tvtropes has got popup ads
00:47:28 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurTimeTravelIsDifferent
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01:18:41 <mauris> #esoteric will like this: http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/67949/3852
01:19:11 <mauris> i've talked about "brainfuck programs whose output is longer than their code" in here before!
01:20:59 <mauris> this time, you have to print an integer matching /[1-9][0-9]*/, longer than your code, and minimize that integer. i don't think the code given there is minimal
01:23:23 <zzo38> oerjan: Then link to All The Tropes wiki which has no popup ads, or disable popup ads, or preferably both.
01:24:14 <oerjan> in theory my browser has disabled popups. however these get through somehow.
01:24:47 <oerjan> i guess it may only disable actual new windows...
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01:30:42 <\oren\> hold on lemme try chrome
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01:32:03 <oerjan> `le/rn bracket/bracket? ¯\[°_o]/¯
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01:48:45 <hppavilion[1]> I just had an idea for the Tower Defence game I'm making
01:50:32 <hppavilion[1]> If random temporal anomalies are enabled, sometimes a tower is sent back in time for you in a crisis. It fights for you, then it dies from Temporal Exhaustion. You have the mission to get an identical tower by a certain point in time and send it back, or the universe is unraveled by the paradox and you lose the game.
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02:02:47 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: But... why does it die from Temporal Exhaustion? Why can't I have a tower appear from the future, and then send the very same tower back (after some repairs, of course)...
02:03:33 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Because that wouldn't be as much of a pain in the ass
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02:28:16 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Well, towers could lose things over time, or get damaged, or something. And have to be fixed.
02:31:29 <hppavilion[1]> The only thing I have coded so far is rendering and about a fifth of a bullet
02:31:39 <hppavilion[1]> Though the bullet is more of a test than a final game thing
02:32:16 <hppavilion[1]> I want to see a "Humorous Standardization" StackExchange
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02:32:34 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, you're given a task to efficiently implement a protocol for, and you do it.
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02:51:32 <hppavilion[1]> http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/93958/strange-standardization?referrer=ZiABwUx2idavPb19oRj8Gw2
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02:54:02 <MDude> Dynastic Title Transfer Protocol?
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03:37:30 <izabera> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4456438/how-do-i-correctly-pass-the-string-null-an-employees-proper-surname-to-a-so dis
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04:04:22 <zgrep> hppavilion[1] who isn't here: Isn't that called RFC? :P
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04:12:24 <boily> zgrep: zgrellop. you should @ask hppavilion[1].
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06:12:27 <zzo38> If you have a technical support service, you should also install a DTMF decoder that can display the number so that it can be use even in case some caller tries to push the numbers into the telephone.
06:20:12 <zzo38> Is there a computer program to emulate a fax modem so that you can send the fax by connecting the audio connection to the telephone directly?
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06:29:27 <\oren\> zzo38: I don't know of such a program, but that would be useful to many people who have to deal with fax-using fogeys
06:29:47 <\oren\> especially if it was an android app
06:30:35 <zzo38> For doing portable faxes yes, although I mean one that can be used even without Android-based system even just use a C program
06:38:26 <zzo38> I mean to be able to send a fax in case you do not have a fax modem.
06:44:02 <pikhq> I do not know of one either.
06:49:17 <zzo38> In many hotels the telephone has a data port so that you can connect your own equipment, possibly including fax; I have even seen one hotel room that has a telephone line on the wall that specifically says "fax". But if it can be done by computer software and if they will tell you which is the internal telephone number by computer fax then maybe you do not have to pay extra for an external call.
07:30:05 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: <hppavilion[1]>I want to see a "Humorous Standardization" StackExchange <-- Isn't that simply an RFC? :P
07:30:29 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Yes, but this one allows people to make their own
07:30:40 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/93958/strange-standardization-and-domain-specific-languages
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11:32:31 <HackEgo> trick/A trick learnt is a trick half forgotten.
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11:56:52 <b_jonas> `perl -esleep$_,warn$_ for 10
11:56:54 <b_jonas> `perl -esleep$_,warn$_ for 2
11:57:09 <b_jonas> `perl -esleep$_,warn$_ for 2
11:57:10 <b_jonas> `perl -esleep$_,warn$_ for 10
11:57:55 <b_jonas> Probably just executing multiple commands in parallel, and printing whichever finishes first. I don't know how the file writes work though.
12:09:53 <fizzie> Involving running the same thing twice.
12:11:04 <fizzie> I keep forgetting the details too, but there are some corner cases you can hit that produce unexpected results.
12:12:10 <b_jonas> I know that jevalbot doesn't handle this properly: if you run two statements at the same time, then the changes in the environment by the one that ends first are completely lost, even if the command that ends second doesn't change anything,
12:12:33 <b_jonas> and the bot gives no easy way to lock or anything.
12:12:57 <b_jonas> So you just have to be careful not to run other statements while state-changing statements are running.
12:13:19 <fizzie> HackEgo's things act on separate repository checkouts, so they don't trample over each other.
12:13:24 <b_jonas> There's a rarely used command to run a statement without state, but that doesn't even _read_ the state, not only doesn't write it.
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12:14:19 <b_jonas> If I ever rewrite jeval, I'll have to change this system to something saner, possibly simply to waiting till the previous command on the session finishes.
12:14:35 <b_jonas> But it's not very likely that I'll rewrite it.
12:14:57 <fizzie> And I seem to recall HackEgo also does a global lock when it's doing the second run that actually does the changes that get committed, so that the changes themselves are serialized.
12:24:22 <fizzie> Yeah, verified. The transaction logic is approximately: Do a shared lock, run the command in a fresh checkout, get the output. If the checkout is not dirty, write the output and finish. Otherwise, obtain an exclusive lock, clean and update the checkout, run the same command again and commit the changes it made. Write out the output from the second run.
12:24:53 <fizzie> Where "write the output" means saying it out loud on the channel.
12:29:42 <fizzie> And "run the command" means spawning a new UML sandbox. Since the only persistent state is the version control checkout, and that's cleaned + updated before running the command a second time, it's normally not really visible that things that modify the persistent files get executed twice. But there were some special cases where you could tell.
12:51:56 <HackEgo> herbalist/An herbalist is a list of herbas.
12:52:05 <HackEgo> mathematimu/A mathematimu is a quantum of mathematics. If you observe it, its codepoint can change.
12:52:46 <HackEgo> ocean/The Pacific Ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The Atlantic Ocean is less cool than its giant underwater mountain range. The Arctic Ocean is cold. The Indian Ocean is full of typhoons and non-Eurocentric shipping.
12:53:48 <HackEgo> ngevd/ngevd is a fake wisdom entry because having an actual infinite file in wisdom/ makes all manner of stuff bloody awkward. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼ also tswett‼
12:54:11 <HackEgo> caps lock/CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR TIRED OLD MEMES
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13:00:16 <HackEgo> We know nothing about the future.
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16:41:45 <lambdabot> CYQB 301614Z 06011KT 1 1/2SM -FZDZ -SG BR BKN008 OVC013 M08/M09 A3030 RMK SF5SC3 VIS VRB 1-2 SLP268
16:43:40 <boily> Snow Grains ← http://meteocentre.com/doc/metar.html (WMO Code Table 4678)
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16:55:47 <lambdabot> ESSB 301650Z 16009KT CAVOK 01/M02 Q1033 R12/19//74
16:56:38 <FireFly> Sad that the really nearby airstrip closed 2006
16:58:10 <boily> no results anymore...
16:58:34 <boily> it would be neat to have a voronoi diagram of the earth's surface, split by ICAO codes.
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18:47:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WhoScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46034&oldid=46021 * MCS-Kaijin * (+1)
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20:16:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Icezen * New user account
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21:42:47 <HackEgo> pie/I like pie \ I like pie
21:55:13 <fizzie> Why is it there twice, though?
21:55:32 <fizzie> fungot: What are your opinions regarding pies?
21:55:32 <fungot> fizzie: but humans can understand the reasoning behind the fnord. on fnord, i think
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22:02:29 <FireFly> fungot: I don't know if they serve pies with fnord
22:02:30 <fungot> FireFly: of course it wouldn't help in this case, more than anybody on d) ( lambda ( elt) ( display
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22:16:19 <fizzie> Oh no! The diplomat delivering $2.5 million USD to me is stranded "at Airport".
22:17:05 <ais523> fizzie: I assume this is the first you've heard of the diplomat in question?
22:17:11 * ais523 wonders if there's a settlement named Airport
22:18:23 <fizzie> Yes. Also it's a very ambiguous message genderwise.
22:18:46 <ais523> your gender, the diplomat's, or the sender's?
22:18:57 <fizzie> "Send your address and phone number to him today and assist hER when She contacts you for more direction. His name is paul william, he arrived at your Airport yesterday with your package and She will need to proceed to your address immediately after her first delivery --"
22:19:19 <fizzie> Or maybe they're talking about two different people.
22:20:08 <ais523> this reminds me of an infamous line from megaman battle network 4
22:20:20 <ais523> I can't remember the exact wording but it was something like "what a polite young man she was!"
22:20:30 <ais523> (I can't remember the gender of the person it referred to, either)
22:22:16 <fizzie> I can also call Richard Bruno, who is a director. They don't mention why I should, just that I can.
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22:44:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tormaroe * New user account
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23:23:43 <boily> people on our minecraft server are doing mysterious things.
23:24:00 <boily> b_jhellonas. already?!?!!!???11!!one!!?six???6??
23:24:32 <b_jonas> because I might not be here on the channel at the time the new year actually starts
23:25:19 <boily> I'll probably not be there either. we're going to far away places to visit my grandma tomorrow and back.
23:26:23 <lambdabot> CYRJ 302322Z 27003KT 2SM -SN OVC012 M12/M14 A3013 RMK SN3SC5 SLP223
23:26:40 <boily> yes, Shift-6 produces ?.
23:27:05 <b_jonas> isn't that on shift-slash or shift-comma?
23:27:10 <boily> 1!, 2@, 3#, 4$, 5%, 6?, 7&, 8*, 9(, 0), -_, =+.
23:28:09 <b_jonas> that doesn't even make sense. that would require extra transistors.
23:28:22 <b_jonas> it's shift-slash because it's 16 over slash
23:29:04 <boily> /1234567890-=qwertyuiop^çàasdfghjkl;èzxcvbnm,.é
23:29:25 <boily> \!@#$%?&*()_+QWERTYUIOP¨ÇÀASDFGHJKL:ÈZXCVBNM'"É
23:29:36 <boily> (mind you, ^ and ¨ are dead keys.)
23:30:09 <b_jonas> what... is that some sort of saner french layout than the azerty one?
23:30:50 <zzo38> Is it a Canadian layout?
23:32:04 <boily> it's sane! it's one of the two French Canadian layouts.
23:32:32 <boily> I don't have a dedicated ù on this keyboard (ANSI key layout). I have to hit AltGr-` then u.
23:32:54 <b_jonas> (œ is also missing, but I can understand that, nobody likes mayonaise)
23:33:06 <coppro> I use us international altgr dead keys
23:33:36 <boily> Right Control, then E.
23:33:49 <boily> and the ørjanletter is RightCtrl-o.
23:34:55 <b_jonas> for comparison, here's the insane layout I use: http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/keymap
23:35:43 <boily> http://blog.docker.com/2015/12/ian-murdock/ ← damn :(
23:36:16 <Taneb> I'm just using UK QWERTY because I'm boring
23:39:04 <boily> just wondering whence the term "ambrus" come from.
23:39:36 <b_jonas> boily: um, it's a name. it's related to some old Saint or something.
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23:40:14 <b_jonas> it wasn't, like, invented by my parents, they just decided to call me that.
23:40:30 <b_jonas> I know because there are older people called Ambrus than me.
23:40:45 <b_jonas> Funnily it's about half-and-half used as a family name and a given name.
23:42:35 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: So that means that ~25% of people with "ambrus" in their name are named Ambrus Ambrus?
23:42:52 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: no, I don't think so
23:43:20 <hppavilion[1]> People often speak "statistically" but rarely "probabilistically"
23:43:34 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Where did I screw up on the math? I did it somewhere, I'm sure.
23:43:48 <b_jonas> it's not that a frequent name, so no, and also half of the people with Ambrus as a family name are female and so can't have Ambrus as the given name
23:43:52 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], you assume that the two are independent
23:43:53 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you assumed that half of all people have ambrus as a first name, and half of all peopel have ambrus as a surname
23:43:56 <ais523> and that the two are independent
23:44:02 <ais523> the first assumption is probably the larger one
23:44:08 <Taneb> So you are making many fallacies
23:44:16 <b_jonas> Taneb: even if they're independent it won't work
23:44:22 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I mean only people that have "ambrus" in their name
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23:44:26 <Taneb> b_jonas, yes, I realise that now
23:44:29 <boily> I observed a green apple, therefore by the Paradox of the Ravens all Hungarians are named Ambrus Ambrus.
23:45:03 <hppavilion[1]> It should probably be (percentage of people with name "ambrus" in their name out of all people)**2 or something like that for the entire population
23:45:04 <Taneb> boily, I don't believe I've ever met a hungarian to my knowledge not called Ambrus Ambrus
23:45:16 <Taneb> Although I have a friend whose surname is Toth who traces her descent to Hungary
23:45:28 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: that doesn't make a difference though, if you're assuming independence (and if not the formula doesn't work anyway)
23:45:32 <Taneb> So I presume there at least used to be some Toths in Hungary
23:45:35 <ais523> the fact that you're only including people with at least one ambrus
23:45:50 <ais523> actually the calculation is wrong anyway, it should have come to a result of ~33% due to overlap double-counting
23:46:03 <b_jonas> It's hard to get precise statistics because it's not among the most common names. It's probably among the first 1000 most common male given names, but definitely not among the first 100.
23:46:12 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I checked Shrodinger's box, therefor Walrus God
23:46:23 <Taneb> b_jonas, is Toth a heard-of Hungarian surname?
23:46:31 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: assume 1% of people have ambrus as a first name and 1% have it as a surname, then with independence, 0.01% of people have it as both
23:46:33 <hppavilion[1]> What happens if you put a Shrodinger box in another Schrodinger box?
23:46:47 <hppavilion[1]> There's a 50% chance that there's a 50% chance that the cat's still alive?
23:46:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ropy]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46035 * Tormaroe * (+6829) Created page with "'''Ropy''' is a stack-based, two-dimensional [[esoteric programming language]] invented in 2012 by Torbjørn Marø. In many ways it works the same as [[Befunge]], but with a d..."
23:46:53 <ais523> meaning that 1/199 of people with at least one ambrus have two
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23:47:17 <b_jonas> Taneb: yes, it's common, although it's usually spelled Tóth here, but many people outside of Hungary spell it Toth, including the guy whose homepage is http://www.vttoth.com/
23:47:19 <hppavilion[1]> Like, the inner Shrodinger box being turned on depends on the outer one activating
23:48:49 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom__Hoover: It's all combinatory logic underneath that
23:48:49 <Taneb> b_jonas, how is it pronounced?
23:50:46 <b_jonas> ais523: right, except there's probably only on the order of magnitude of 1000 people called Ambrus, so the intersection would be less than 1 person, if it was independent. though given the stupid names parents give to their children, there's somewhat better odds that someone is or was actually called Ambrus Ambrus.
23:51:18 <b_jonas> There are definitely some people with the same given name as family name.
23:51:55 <b_jonas> And also lots of people whose given name is otherwise a bad match for their family name, because the parents didn't think.
23:52:39 <hppavilion[1]> (Yes, Hugh spelled like that, not the correct way)
23:53:22 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I'm not sure there is a "proper way" with names
23:53:28 <ais523> "hugh" is one of the most common spellings of that name thouh
23:53:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ropy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46036&oldid=46035 * Tormaroe * (+1138) /* How it works */
23:53:45 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: There is, some people just ignore it because they're idiots
23:54:17 <hppavilion[1]> Luckily, my parents gave me a name that isn't so uncommon that it's stupid and that is actually spelled the proper way.
23:54:42 <ais523> not that uncommon, and spelled correctly apart from possibly a missing space and capital P
23:56:20 <b_jonas> There are a lot of names that are also given names: Balázs, Lukács, László, Jakab, Sándor, Kelemen, Antal, Pál, Illés, Jónás, Máté, Gáspár, Orbán, Virág, Barna, Tamás, Péter, Márton are all on the table of the 100 most common family names, with Vincze as an honorary mention.
23:56:26 <hppavilion[1]> For WalText2i, should I reset the env after each character, or should I leave it untouched so you can glean information about the previous character?
23:56:34 <b_jonas> Crazy, I didn't realize there were that many common ones.
23:57:00 <hppavilion[1]> e.g. a character definition ends with `end=x+yi`, so you can then work from `end` on the next character
23:57:06 <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, some of those names have obvious equivalents with English names, others don't
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23:57:30 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, because like half of the common given names in Hungary are actually biblical names
23:57:55 <b_jonas> and the same is true in some English-speaking countries
23:58:00 <ais523> (with one interesting odd one out: "László", often misspelled or misaccented, is recognized as being Hungarian but reasonably recognizable as a name in English despite that)
23:58:03 <b_jonas> Mária is the single most common given name in Hungary
23:58:26 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, it's recognizable because Lovász László (sr) is so famous
23:58:43 <b_jonas> btw, László is now apparently the most common given name in Hungary
23:58:50 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> It's Schrodingers all the way down <-- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wigner%27s_friend hth
23:59:01 <b_jonas> I thoguht it was stil József, but nope, all the Józsefs got old and died apparently or something
23:59:19 <b_jonas> name fashions change a lot
23:59:55 <b_jonas> there's always some newly fashionable name that everyone gives to babies, which is rare among adults but quickly gets common in the age group of that baby
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00:00:35 <ais523> b_jonas: I was reading a blog about names recently
00:00:42 <b_jonas> Though of course some given names are ever popular
00:01:20 <ais523> apparently something unusual has happened recently, which is that one name has become in the top 10 of popularity in a huge number of different countries, rather than countries keeping to their own traditional names
00:01:25 <b_jonas> ais523: http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2012-05-30.2050.html#d.2012-05-30.2050 is one
00:02:16 <b_jonas> ais523: which name? is it the name used by someone very famous? like Barack?
00:02:26 <ais523> b_jonas: Sofia, and variations (e.g. Sophie)
00:02:49 <ais523> I think Sofia is the most common worldwide spelling although different countries still have their own local spellings of it
00:03:12 <b_jonas> sure, and many countries have more than one local spelling of any one name
00:03:33 <b_jonas> that happens a lot here, with both family names and given names, though for somewhat different reasons
00:03:50 <fizzie> ais523: "Sofia" was the #1 female child name in Finland for 2014.
00:04:29 <ais523> fizzie: right, that's true of a lot of other countries too
00:04:31 <b_jonas> family names mostly come in versions spelled phonetically like Kis, and versions spelled in a deliberately strange way, like Kiss, the latter often orinally used to try to fool people that you're a nobleman
00:04:32 <fizzie> I doubt it's in the top 10 overall yet, though.
00:05:02 <b_jonas> so a lot of family names have two variants like that, sometimes three or more
00:05:19 <ais523> b_jonas: have people moved to Kisss yet?
00:05:37 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I don't think so. the strange spellings are all old, I don't think new ones are born much.
00:05:48 <b_jonas> not those kinds of strange spellings at least.
00:06:22 <hppavilion[1]> If I legally change my name, I'll be named kisssssssssssssss
00:06:53 <fizzie> For currently living female Finns, Sofia as ranks #16.
00:07:11 <ais523> fizzie: right, this only happened in the past few years
00:07:24 <b_jonas> As for given names, there's multiple variants either because there's more than one borrowings from foreign languages of ultimately the same etymology, or because people start to give names that were originally nicknames of a name as a normal name.
00:08:23 <b_jonas> The most common example for the latter are Gergő and Bence.
00:08:41 <b_jonas> I'm not sure about the former.
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01:39:34 <pikhq> I think "ebf" by I don't know who is one of the more impressive "extended brainfuck" or "brainfuck macro" things I've seen.
01:39:57 <pikhq> ... Just because its only implementation is an ebf to Brainfuck commpiler.
01:40:19 <pikhq> ebf to Brainfuck self-hosting compiler.
01:40:23 <ais523> what's the impl written in?
01:40:27 <ais523> right, was going to say
01:40:32 <ais523> next problem is, who's going to bootstrap that thing?
01:40:36 <pikhq> I mean okay, it's otherwise not *that* impressive, but props on making it self-host.
01:40:52 <pikhq> The author did. The initial implementation was hand-compiled.
01:41:16 <pikhq> Yeah, but awib is not compiling a more complicated language. :)
01:42:41 <pikhq> Oh. And also, this wasn't the guy's goal, just a step on the way to his real goal of implementing Lisp.
01:43:03 <ais523> oh, I'd go via underlambda if I wanted a lisp in BF
01:45:23 <ais523> also, IIRC Chaitin wrote a lisp interpreter as a Diophantine equation
01:45:24 <pikhq> Basically what I'm saying is I really prefer it when people strap stuff onto Brainfuck to make it "more" and actually put some effort into it.
01:45:38 <ais523> and it's only like one page of coefficients
01:45:51 <ais523> pikhq: you can flip that around to "BF derivatives are most interesting when there's effort put into them"
01:45:58 <ais523> or at least a good idea
01:46:09 <ais523> I think when http://esolangs.org/wiki/PaintFuck was posted, #esoteric was approving of the idea
01:46:11 <pikhq> There are way too many boring ones.
01:46:28 <ais523> maybe I misremembered the caps
01:46:33 <ais523> yep: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Paintfuck
01:46:58 <pikhq> Maybe not the best but at least novel.
01:47:27 <ais523> yes, we liked the novelty of the idea
01:47:31 <pikhq> Rather than, say, Ook. :(
01:47:49 <ais523> that was novel at the time
01:48:01 <ais523> it was probably the first BF substitution
01:48:09 <pikhq> Oh, it was the first? Or at least super early?
01:48:15 <ais523> first language substitution full stop, in fact, IIRC
01:48:24 <pikhq> Okay, that's a lot less terrible then.
01:48:28 <ais523> people liked it, but the third and fourth time and so on it doesn't work nearly as well
01:48:44 <pikhq> It's a joke that works about once.
01:48:45 <ais523> "It represents the first, although unfortunately not the last, in a long line of trivial Brainfuck command substitutions."
01:48:59 <ais523> meanwhile, HQ9+ is apparently a joke that only works three times
01:49:15 <ais523> (HQ9++ and the oerjan variant with a bunch more commands)
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01:51:54 <pikhq> Also, SSRI discontinuation syndrome sucks. :(
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02:16:41 <ais523> hmm, the costumer service have sent me another bank statement
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02:17:11 <ais523> that's quite a persistent typo-based spam account
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02:18:08 <oerjan> oh it wasn't your typo?
02:19:24 <oerjan> `learn Costumes are used for cosplay. Taneb sometimes invents them.
02:19:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'costume': Costumes are used for cosplay. Taneb sometimes invents them.
02:19:41 <oerjan> an entirely true wisdom for once.
02:19:53 <HackEgo> Cosplay is the art of dressing up as people to show off to other people dressed up as people.
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02:22:37 <oerjan> shachaf: my attempts at dualizing `? cosplay is leaving me in a labyrinth of horrible grammar help
02:23:46 <shachaf> oerjan: maybe you would find it easier to write an entry for cosplay tree hth
02:31:26 <boily> isn't a cosplay its self-dual?
02:32:02 <\oren\> I'm attempting to draw U+261A to 261F
02:42:56 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, robots, cigars, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
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02:46:10 <shachaf> Taneb: so BDSM is out but how does Taneb feel about dominance and submission in non-sexual contexts twh
02:51:12 * boily strops his mapole for maximum accuracy
02:51:40 * oerjan guards with the saucepan
02:51:40 <boily> explain, or I mapole an innocent bystander!
02:51:45 <shachaf> boily: "seems plausible to me" hth
02:51:57 <boily> thanks, innocent bystander!
02:52:18 <oerjan> does shachaf have the hth nature
02:53:36 <fungot> boily: apparently the fastest known way to send commands to it directly) connected to a time earlier than the other way
02:54:43 <oerjan> fungot appears to be contemplating sending commands across time
02:54:43 <fungot> oerjan: too fnord it's probably closest to my ideal, only it's designed more efficiently and to take more master server ips, they could just use the first one
02:55:45 <oerjan> which leads me to the epiphany that fungot's parentheses are actually perfectly matched, just not in the usual chronological order
02:55:45 <fungot> oerjan: all the verizon and covad techs ( or contractors) i've dealt with in irc channels
02:56:10 <MDude> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_languages
02:58:32 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm ppwm for figuring out so many oerjacronyms
02:59:17 <lambdabot> KBJC 310247Z 34003KT 20SM SCT060 BKN080 M08/M13 A3012
02:59:38 <oerjan> that is pretty cold for california
03:00:13 <shachaf> I'm not in California. HTH.
03:00:55 <shachaf> Maybe I'm giving away too much geographical information there.
03:01:00 <lambdabot> KSEA 310253Z 04008KT 10SM CLR 02/M04 A3045 RMK AO2 SLP323 T00171039 51008
03:02:10 <oerjan> don't worry, no one will ever discover you're in port townsend
03:04:34 <earenndil> port townsend? Oh, I live relatively close to there
03:04:47 <lambdabot> KSJC 310253Z 27006KT 10SM FEW013 SCT024 BKN036 09/05 A3022 RMK AO2 SLP231 T00890050 52006
03:04:56 <pikhq> That's rather a lot more useful knowledge to me.
03:04:59 <oerjan> earenndil: see if you can spot shachaf nearby hth
03:05:53 <earenndil> Eh, I'm not close enough for it to be convenient to visit
03:06:07 <shachaf> I'll be in Seattle on Friday.
03:06:17 <shachaf> Are you traveling to California soon?
03:06:21 <pikhq> shachaf: Since when were you not in California?
03:06:37 <\oren\> I drew ☕ as a takeout coffee cup but it's apparently supposed to be a mug!
03:06:52 <shachaf> But in this case since the 24th or so.
03:07:07 <earenndil> shachaf: I said I'm *near* Seattle, I still have to take a ferry to go to seattle
03:07:20 <pikhq> Stupid vacation times.
03:07:46 <shachaf> The Bainbridge ferry, presumably.
03:08:12 <pikhq> oerjan: I have spotted a wild shachaf before.
03:08:24 <boily> he\\oren\. I think you can enthicken 快.
03:08:27 <pikhq> He is very shachaf.
03:08:44 <\oren\> whatever the unicode name is "HOT BEVERAGE". A 7-11 style coffee cup is a hot beverage.
03:09:37 <oerjan> boily: i see you are using cromulent words
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03:10:39 <\oren\> does europe have 7-11 yet?
03:16:04 <shachaf> pikhq: not as much as some people hth
03:16:13 <oerjan> heh, wiktionary has an 1884 quotation for "embiggen"
03:17:25 <oerjan> \oren\: there were a ridiculous number in trondheim last i checked.
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03:17:48 <oerjan> which was a while ago.
03:18:14 <\oren\> cool, therefore a coffee cup of the style I drew should be recognizable to people everywhere
03:19:05 <\oren\> for a given value of everywhere
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03:23:12 <hppavilion[1]> Rectangular Geometry: A two parallel lines intersect infinitely many times and have two 90 degree angles.
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03:24:36 <fcrawl> splay is the art of dressing up as copeople to show off to other copeople dressed up as copeople. it is used for stumes
03:29:43 <\oren\> half-spheric geometry: all points above the x axis have spheric curvature, below the x axis zero curvature
03:32:17 <\oren\> this would mean that any two parallel lines which are not horizontal, would meet exactly ONCE
03:33:42 <\oren\> equivalently, the "line at infinity" parallel to the x axis is compressed to a point
03:34:05 <\oren\> but only the line above the x axis, not the one below
03:37:09 <\oren\> this could be modeled by the line at infinity below the x axis being a circle, minus one point, which is the line at infinity above. a circle inside, touching the outer circle only at that point, is the x axis
03:38:09 <\oren\> wait that;s not equivalent
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04:59:01 <FreeFull> \oren\: Would half-toroidal geometry be equivalent to a finite cylinder?
05:00:34 <coppro> if it's what I think you mean, yeah, it's just a cylinder
05:03:30 <FreeFull> What about geometry on the flat unit klein bottle?
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05:09:13 <FreeFull> coppro: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Klein_Bottle_Folding_1.svg This is the diagram for the klein bottle
05:11:29 <coppro> FreeFull: that's different from a torus
05:11:41 <coppro> a torus has the top and bottom edges aligned the same way
05:12:06 <coppro> as a consequence, a klein bottle is orientable while a torus is not
05:12:11 <FreeFull> coppro: Yeah, I was asking about something else now
05:12:17 <FreeFull> And you've got that the wrong way around, the torus is orientable
05:12:57 <FreeFull> On the klein bottle, you can have self-intersecting lines
05:13:19 <FreeFull> I'm not sure what restraints apply to parallel lines
05:14:30 <coppro> what do you mean by "restraints"?
05:15:41 <coppro> what do you even define parallel to mean on such a surface?
05:23:07 <FreeFull> Parallel is easy enough thanks to no curvature
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05:24:09 <FreeFull> I think the number of times the parallel lines intersect though changes depending on the angles
05:24:26 <FreeFull> There is no rotational invariance
05:28:52 <coppro> if you view the surface as a sphere with a small crosscap
05:29:03 <coppro> you can change the number of intersections with the crosscap by rotation
05:29:12 <coppro> so basically yeah, that
05:37:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Your Minsky May Vary]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46037 * Ais523 * (+3545) new language
05:37:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46038&oldid=45964 * Ais523 * (+27) /* Y */ +[[Your Minsky May Vary]]
05:38:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46039&oldid=45827 * Ais523 * (+26) +[[Your Minsky May Vary]]
05:38:35 <ais523> name was too good an opportunity to pass up, language hopefully isn't /terrible/
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05:46:41 <ais523> I'm worried it has java2k syndrome but it seems at least to be a bit more interesting than that
05:47:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46040&oldid=45763 * Ais523 * (-1) /* Syntax */ fix typo
06:08:50 <zzo38> Now my card file database has the section for general-purpose comments too.
06:14:21 <zzo38> How do I do it so that when Firefox ask for the username and password that it will display additional information too (such as the authentication type and root URIs and so on)?
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06:58:11 <izabera> ian murdock died last night
06:58:44 <zzo38> Yes I read that on another IRC too
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07:08:27 <zzo38> Do you think that the wisdom file for "zzo38mtg.php" should also specify account registrations?
07:13:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Quintopia]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46041&oldid=45569 * Quintopia * (+30) /* Interpreters written in Python */
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07:19:29 <HackEgo> http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php
07:28:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46042&oldid=45601 * Quintopia * (+1495) /* Implementations */
07:28:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portable Minsky Machine Notation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46043&oldid=45822 * Ais523 * (+58) /* See also */ mention the derivative
07:28:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46044&oldid=46042 * Quintopia * (+2) /* Ceylon */
07:28:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46045&oldid=46044 * Quintopia * (+2) /* Pyth */
07:29:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46046&oldid=46045 * Quintopia * (+2) /* Javascript (ES6) */
07:31:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46047&oldid=46046 * Quintopia * (+4) /* Pyth */
07:43:45 <zzo38> It fails to answer the question?
08:04:26 <hppavilion[1]> A hybrid of the Silo model and the Filesystem model
08:05:12 <zzo38> Which is then working how?
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09:05:45 <hppavilion[1]> What do you guys think of an OS based on objects and classes?
09:06:59 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, the OS has a central repository of user-defined classes, along with a single list of objects. You start with nothing and work up from there, using λ-calculus and CL and whatever other shit I throw into it to fully personalize your OS experience
09:07:00 <zzo38> Well, you can try, and then we can see, I suppose.
09:42:26 <b_jonas> “fully personalize your OS experience” hehehe
09:44:14 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: that sounds a little bit like Smalltalk, as in the way the system was originally built to contain the library and development UI and your code in all the same mutable workspace, defined from a few hundred primitive functions and syntax. (this was, I think, a bad idea, but it made more sense back at that day, and some APL thingies worked somewhat similarly.)
09:44:27 <b_jonas> \ defined from a few hundred primitive functions and syntax. (this was, I think, a bad idea, but it made more sense back at that day, and some APL thingies worked somewhat similarly.)
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09:46:21 <ais523> b_jonas: and likewise, it sounds a bit like Feather, for similar reasons
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12:07:48 <HackEgo> A photograph is a device for creating photograms.
12:09:12 <HackEgo> [U+3053 HIRAGANA LETTER KO] [U+3053 HIRAGANA LETTER KO] [U+304C HIRAGANA LETTER GA] [U+51FA CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-51FA] [U+306D HIRAGANA LETTER NE]
12:11:24 <HackEgo> [U+3053 HIRAGANA LETTER KO] [U+3053 HIRAGANA LETTER KO] [U+304C HIRAGANA LETTER GA] [U+3067 HIRAGANA LETTER DE] [U+306D HIRAGANA LETTER NE]
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13:02:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46048&oldid=46038 * 178.255.168.42 * (+14) /* F */
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14:38:08 <\oren\> OMG it was ganondorf behind it all alang... again
14:39:17 <b_jonas> \oren\: duh. ganondorf was behind letting V escape too. he could cast spells even as a ghost.
14:41:27 <coppro> pls no starwars spoilers
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14:47:40 <lifthrasiir> okay, https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ is now in the public domain
14:49:31 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDN_homograph_attack "For example, a person frequenting citibank.com may be lured to click a link in which the Latin C is replaced with the Cyrillic С."
14:52:03 <lifthrasiir> izabera: not only spam, e.g. a tweet with that link may survive without being detected
14:52:39 <izabera> the example itself on wikipedia
14:54:03 <izabera> citibank spam on wikipedia
14:54:45 <Phantom_Hoover> izabera, seems reasonable, this isn't the bbc we're talking about
14:55:26 <izabera> btw your font totally fails to avoid homograph attacks in the korean characters
14:55:36 <izabera> altho my eyes are not trained to read korean
14:56:10 <lifthrasiir> izabera: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IDN_homograph_attack&diff=383860153&oldid=383859096 is the initial introduction
14:56:20 <izabera> and i'm assuming it's korean
14:56:26 <lifthrasiir> not sure why citibank is used in the example but does not look that significant
14:56:41 <lifthrasiir> izabera: there are some hard cases, I know
14:58:18 <izabera> i don't read braille either but i think the font should only display the black dots
14:58:39 <izabera> displaying both is confusing
15:01:30 <lifthrasiir> izabera: people seems to like brailles, that is the second time I've heard of criticism on braille
15:02:00 <lifthrasiir> I'm thinking of providing an option to give alternative glyphs for them
15:03:09 <b_jonas> Of course I like brailles! It's a well-designed system that managed to get more popular than all its competitors, so basically it's a story with a happy end. And
15:03:40 <lifthrasiir> of course, Unicode ruined braille by merging two variants of 8-dot brailles
15:04:02 <b_jonas> it's stood the test of time: braille is still popular now that we write it with thousand dollar braille terminals connected to the internet rather than a grid and stylus, and it still works.
15:04:28 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: I don't think it _merged_ them. I think it just failed to account for the less common variant, so far, because it's not much popular.
15:04:45 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: Korean braille is almost based on 1930s' Korean orthography
15:05:31 <b_jonas> I don't know enough about the back story here to understand this.
15:05:51 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: a reply to "it's stood the test of time", I meant
15:06:18 <b_jonas> Isn't Korean braille a 6-dot system where generally each letter is written separately so that each syllable is made of two or three cells, except that there's a lot of abbreviations so it's generally shorter than that?
15:06:21 <lifthrasiir> it is so successful that it changes slowly than its normal variant
15:06:51 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: basically yes, but has lots of abbreviations like English braille
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15:08:01 <lifthrasiir> 1930s' orthography is that ㄲ ㄸ ㅃ etc. are written as ㅅㄱ, ㅅㄷ, ㅅㅂ etc. at that time and the braille forms for them exactly reflect that
15:08:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jamesmorrison * New user account
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15:16:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CAT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46049&oldid=30154 * Jamesmorrison * (+29)
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16:01:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Your Minsky May Vary]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46050 * LegionMammal978 * (+182) Created page with "Can there be whitespace between counter numbers, such as `inc(3 | 4)`? ~~~~"
16:02:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Your Minsky May Vary]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46051&oldid=46050 * LegionMammal978 * (+11) whoops
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16:09:09 <Taneb> My client crashed and I lost all my channels :(
16:10:12 <Taneb> On both my client and my bouncer!
16:10:56 <Taneb> I'm still missing a few that I can't quite remember...
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16:13:32 <FireFly> With a name that punny I can only assume YMMV is an ais523 language
16:13:48 <FireFly> and also the connection to Minsky machines of course
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17:04:12 <b_jonas> oh! that language is one where it might be a serious problem that you don't have gotos, only while and if
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17:06:13 <b_jonas> myname: you don't have variables (boolean or enum) you can reliably set, clear, and test, so you can't use them to control the control flow of while loops
17:07:00 <b_jonas> unlike in the original Portable Minsky
17:14:06 <fizzie> Taneb: Now that I'm in your country, should I know something important about the new year's traditions?
17:14:47 <fizzie> So far I've understood it's not so much about fireworks as it was in Finland, but maybe as much about drinking (if possible).
17:15:03 <fizzie> At least the alcohol aisles at the shop were unusually busy.
17:15:39 <Taneb> fizzie, well, we normally sing a song at midnight that's in Scottish and everyone seems to know the lyrics to
17:15:59 <Taneb> There are fireworks in the big cities but not many
17:16:07 <Taneb> And champagne is traditionally drank at midnight
17:16:54 <fizzie> That Auld Lang Syne thing, right.
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17:21:00 <lambdabot> ENVA 311650Z 15019KT CAVOK 03/M06 Q1012 RMK WIND 670FT 15024G38KT
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17:21:07 <lambdabot> ENVA 311650Z 15019KT CAVOK 03/M06 Q1012 RMK WIND 670FT 15024G38KT
17:21:32 <oerjan> which part tells that it's a storm again
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17:24:05 <oerjan> apparently the 019KT part
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17:53:31 <Taneb> It happened again :(
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17:54:52 <oerjan> Taneb: lucky nothing really happened
17:55:31 <Taneb> Well, I lost all my channels
17:55:53 <oerjan> surely only #esoteric counts hth
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18:16:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TeaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46052&oldid=45198 * 76.102.163.231 * (+142)
18:18:05 <fizzie> oerjan: It's actually 19KT.
18:18:10 <fizzie> oerjan: the 0 is part of 150, the direction.
18:18:26 <fizzie> Heading 150 degrees, speed 19 knots.
18:18:38 <lambdabot> EGLL 311750Z AUTO 22012KT 9999 -RA SCT015/// BKN028/// OVC045/// //////CB 08/05 Q1014 NOSIG
18:18:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TeaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46053&oldid=46052 * 76.102.163.231 * (-9)
18:19:13 <oerjan> what happens if the direction is less than 100
18:19:23 <fizzie> I think that part's zero-padded, then.
18:19:30 <fizzie> I don't know what happens if speed is more than 99.
18:19:39 <lambdabot> EGLL 311750Z AUTO 22012KT 9999 -RA SCT015/// BKN028/// OVC045/// //////CB 08/05 Q1014 NOSIG
18:19:47 <lambdabot> EFHK 311750Z 12009KT 9999 FEW014 M04/M06 Q1035 NOSIG
18:19:55 <fizzie> Well, it's >= 100 there too.
18:21:28 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METAR#Example_METAR_codes seems to indicate the speed is zero-padded if less than 10
18:22:06 <fizzie> 19 knots isn't much of a storm, to be honest.
18:22:51 <fizzie> There was supposed to be some sort of a storm here, but it was only the northern bits.
18:23:07 <oerjan> maybe it wasn't blowing that much right then.
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18:24:22 <fizzie> The UK flood warning map has been very lively recently.
18:25:03 <fizzie> https://flood-warning-information.service.gov.uk/map
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18:25:38 <fizzie> "95 Warnings no longer in force - flood warnings and flood alerts removed in the last 24 hours" guess it's getting better
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18:26:42 <oerjan> well there was a picture of cameron visiting flooding in york in a norwegian newspaper
18:27:19 <oerjan> Taneb: so is your student apartment under water twnh
18:29:09 <fizzie> Maybe that's why their IRC keeps going down.
18:29:14 <oerjan> Taneb: hey maybe you're disconnecting because the server ... right
18:29:59 <oerjan> i expect they've probably put the university somewhere high, though
18:31:14 <b_jonas> oerjan: huhwhat? our university is quite law, so it's flooded often.
18:31:22 <fizzie> Ours in Finland is pretty near the sea, too. The road next to the CS building is occasionally under water.
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18:31:36 <b_jonas> it's the Országos Széchényi Könyvtár that is up high on a hill.
18:31:42 <fizzie> I don't think they've actually gotten water into any buildings though.
18:32:19 <b_jonas> well, the flood doesn't go up to the tenth floors of the high buildings, it's just the basements that are regularly flooded, but that's enough of a problem.
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18:33:07 <b_jonas> also, since it's so close to the river, the ground isn't too stable, so one of the buildings (Ch) started to dangerously twist when they digged the metro tunnel under it.
18:33:22 <b_jonas> the university blamed the tunnel builders of doing something wrong and causing too much vibrations.
18:34:05 <b_jonas> oerjan: it's named in honor of Széchényi Ferenc, the son of Széchenyi István, because he has had something to do with starting a library and supporting it with some of his money or something like that
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18:36:34 <b_jonas> reference https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orsz%C3%A1gos_Sz%C3%A9ch%C3%A9nyi_K%C3%B6nyvt%C3%A1r#T.C3.B6rt.C3.A9nete
18:36:44 <b_jonas> and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Sz%C3%A9ch%C3%A9nyi_Library#History
18:37:03 <b_jonas> it's either the biggest or the second biggest library in Hungary
18:46:30 <Taneb> oerjan, my student flat is not underwater as far as I know
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18:46:42 <Taneb> Neither, for that matter, is the server
18:48:23 <oerjan> b_jonas: s/son/father/, i take.
18:48:25 <Taneb> Turns out one of the admins on the server (ran by the CS society at my uni) was fiddling with the ZNC install trying to get it to work with HTTPS
18:48:42 <Taneb> Which, to be fair, it now does
18:49:42 <b_jonas> oerjan: ah right! he's the FATHER of Széchenyi István. That actually makes _much_ more sense historically.
18:50:01 <b_jonas> As in, he was active _before_ the dualism.
18:50:07 <b_jonas> Sorry, I'm not good in history.
18:51:17 <b_jonas> I should have known this, it's not like the Károlyi family, which has like a dozen famous people in it, including minister presidents, and statues with just "Károlyi" written on them; plus a dozen other famous people named Károlyi who aren't related to them.
18:52:42 <oerjan> now i wonder why the son dropped a ´
18:53:38 <oerjan> the pronunciation guide at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istv%C3%A1n_Sz%C3%A9chenyi seems to think it's still pronounced long
18:54:20 <b_jonas> oerjan: at that time people didn't have passports with a name printed in them, so the spelling of names of noblemen was more flexible.
18:54:35 <b_jonas> and yes, both are pronounced Szécsényi
18:54:55 <b_jonas> at least most likely pronounced that
18:55:06 <b_jonas> some people probably pronounced it in different ways
18:57:16 <fizzie> There's an Iain M. Banks novel where your social class determines how many names you have -- nobles have one, two seems relatively common, and having four names seems to be considered an indicator of low social status.
19:08:29 <quintopia> dammit i can't remember the name of the stupid command to show all pings
19:08:59 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
19:09:27 <izabera> fuck you stupid bot for telling me to use a command that did nothing
19:10:22 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
19:10:49 <lambdabot> a(n) = 6a(n-1) - a(n-2), with a(0) = 0 and a(1) = 2.[0,2,12,70,408,2378,1386...
19:11:02 <HackEgo> mothology/Mothology is the study of moths, myths and mirths.
19:11:37 <quintopia> WOW SO USEFUL THX FOR USEFUL DOCS LAMBDABOT
19:11:47 <lambdabot> You have QuickCheck and 3 seconds. Prove something.
19:12:47 <lambdabot> . [or compose] is the composition of two plugins
19:12:47 <lambdabot> The following semantics are used: . f g xs == g xs >>= f
19:14:01 <oerjan> @@ is usually more convenient
19:15:20 <shachaf> oerjan: the obvious conclusion is that `learn should be a-separated hth
19:15:25 <b_jonas> oerjan: buubot has a more general composition method. I took part in defining and implementing that one.
19:15:31 <b_jonas> lambdabot's compose is limited
19:15:48 <lambdabot> spell <word>. Show spelling of word
19:16:04 <lambdabot> Plugin `spell' failed with: aspell: readCreateProcessWithExitCode: runInteractiveProcess: exec: does not exist (No such file or directory)
19:16:16 <b_jonas> In buubot, you can interplate the result of a command anywhere inside a command line.
19:17:12 <b_jonas> That together with a quoting command and an eval (inside sandbox) command lets you glue buubot commands together in basically any way you like.
19:17:40 <b_jonas> (The quoting command lets you quote _any_ string output such that you can embed it as a literal in a program you eval.
19:17:56 <b_jonas> We also have persistency, and macros with arguments.
19:18:23 <b_jonas> Well, not quite arguments, only one string argument really, with convenience for whitespace-splitting.
19:29:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Schrodilang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46054&oldid=31108 * 78.52.70.142 * (+10)
19:37:39 * b_jonas checks if the Esowiki has a language called [[2005]] yet
19:38:00 <b_jonas> well, I guess you still have time. we're faster these days than last year.
19:40:04 <myname> is the 2016 binary ready?
19:48:41 <oerjan> b_jonas: um that's what lambdabot's @@ does
19:49:17 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
19:49:22 <lambdabot> @@ executes plugin invocations in its arguments, parentheses can be used.
19:49:22 <lambdabot> The commands are right associative.
19:49:22 <lambdabot> is the same as: @@ (@pl (@undo code))
19:50:25 <b_jonas> oerjan: I don't think so, unless the help doesn't tell everything. it doesn't tell how to quote arbitrary output, or how to put arbitrary strings including at signs and parenthesis in the commands
19:51:14 <b_jonas> maybe lambdabot can do all that, but if so, I have no idea how
19:52:21 <shachaf> oerjan: in the vein of le/rn le//rn etc.
19:52:30 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
19:52:33 <lambdabot> quote <nick>: Quote <nick> or a random person if no nick is given
19:53:50 <b_jonas> and how do you put arbitrary at signs into the command?
19:54:20 <oerjan> a bit trickier, but you can do it with @run
19:54:27 <lambdabot> run <expr>. You have Haskell, 3 seconds and no IO. Go nuts!
19:54:50 <b_jonas> maybe lambdabot is better than I thought
19:54:54 <oerjan> there is a rather big limitation in @run's output length, alas
19:54:55 <b_jonas> thanks for telling about @show at least
19:55:05 <b_jonas> does it also have mutable state?
19:55:43 <b_jonas> it might be write-once but that can probably be worked around
19:55:45 <oerjan> there _used_ to be a @read command that undid @show, but that was removed
19:56:08 <b_jonas> oerjan: that isn't really needed, you can just @run write or something like that
19:56:14 <oerjan> oh right, you cannot get to everything else inside @run
19:56:42 <oerjan> yeah var is the way to do it now
19:56:58 <shachaf> this was done through @@ @run trickery
19:57:41 <b_jonas> I think buubot has a rather long output limit internally, as in, the output between commands in a compose line, or the def of a factoid/macro (which is what mutable state is based on) can be much longer than an irc line (probably at least 64 kilobytes or something)
19:57:51 <b_jonas> even if it won't output long lines to _IRC_
19:58:01 <b_jonas> it had a web interface though, with both longer input and output lines than irc
19:58:08 <oerjan> shachaf: pretty sure i've done similar
19:58:13 <b_jonas> but technically you don't need that much, since with mutable state you can just use multiple lines
19:58:39 <shachaf> oerjan: I did the original blah++ing, but ion was the one who brought it to that particular number. Unless I'm misremembering.
19:58:41 <b_jonas> buubot's syntax is sort of both useful and esoteric
19:58:50 <shachaf> @karma shachaf is mostly your fault
19:59:17 <oerjan> b_jonas: quite possibly lambdabot's internal limit is higher, but still not unlimited.
19:59:18 -!- ^v has joined.
19:59:20 <shachaf> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2012-12-29.txt 19:13
19:59:29 -!- ^v has quit (Client Quit).
19:59:37 <oerjan> the output limit is higher in privmsg, after all
19:59:51 <b_jonas> I don't recall what the length limits are in buubot
20:02:28 <oerjan> given that @run's output is sometimes nominally infinite, there has to be
20:08:06 -!- earenndil has changed nick to Elronnd.
20:12:59 <oerjan> izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDN_homograph_attack "For example, a person frequenting citibank.com may be lured to click a link in which the Latin C is replaced with the Cyrillic С." <-- brb, registering .сom
20:24:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CAT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46055&oldid=46049 * Oerjan * (-29) Undo revision 46049 by [[Special:Contributions/Jamesmorrison|Jamesmorrison]] ([[User talk:Jamesmorrison|talk]]) (Seems like spam)
20:24:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Jamesmorrison]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
20:26:28 <oerjan> unusually clever, though, the link had a url and was placed in a spot that easily _could_ have been non-spam.
20:26:57 <oerjan> so i actually had to risk visiting it to check
20:29:02 <oerjan> i hope other people are sometimes checking things, i've basically dropped esolangs.org from what i follow closely until i catch up to some other sites
20:29:17 <oerjan> the backlog was just too big.
20:30:41 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
20:31:36 <oerjan> soon it will be useful!
20:32:30 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
20:33:03 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
20:33:14 <izabera> i made it useful like you wanted
20:33:32 * oerjan beats izabera senseless with the saucepan ===\__/
20:33:49 <oerjan> YOU RUINED IT WHEN THERE WERE JUST HOURS LEFT
20:34:00 <shachaf> oerjan: what if it used %G wth
20:34:09 <oerjan> no idea what that means
20:36:01 * oerjan is reminded of that flower in the dennis the menace movie
20:36:40 <HackEgo> inventory/An inventory is a collection of inventions.
20:37:04 <shachaf> `` date -d '2016-01-01' +'%Y %G'
20:37:21 <shachaf> `` date -d '2016-01-03' +'%Y %G'
20:37:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dateu: not found
20:37:26 <shachaf> `` date -d '2016-01-04' +'%Y %G'
20:37:34 <b_jonas> oh, I don't have that alias here
20:37:40 <fizzie> `` for i in 1 2 3 4 5 6; do date --date=2016-01-0$i +"2016-01-0$i: %G"; done
20:37:41 <HackEgo> 2016-01-01: 2015 \ 2016-01-02: 2015 \ 2016-01-03: 2015 \ 2016-01-04: 2016 \ 2016-01-05: 2016 \ 2016-01-06: 2016
20:38:02 <fizzie> It's the year attached to the week number given by %V.
20:38:13 <fizzie> Week numbers: so complicated.
20:39:28 <oerjan> i always hated those since i could never remember when they were
20:39:34 <HackEgo> 2015-12-31 20:39:32.075129000+00:00
20:39:39 <HackEgo> 2015-12-31 20:39:36.267839000+00:00
20:39:44 <b_jonas> ah great, I have datei, just not dateu
20:39:57 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec date --rfc-3=n "$@"
20:40:34 <b_jonas> ``` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nexec date --rfc-3=n -u "$@"' > bin/dateu && chmod a+x bin/dateu
20:40:39 <HackEgo> 2015-12-31 20:40:36.938618000+00:00
20:40:41 <HackEgo> 2015-12-31 20:40:38.926797000+00:00
20:40:58 <b_jonas> mind you, it makes no difference because HackEgo is set to UTC timezone by default
20:42:53 <fizzie> The one good thing about living in the UK: times in UTC are local for at least part of the year.
20:43:00 <fizzie> Now if they'd get rid of DST too.
20:43:56 <izabera> which timezone is the other one where utc is local for part of the year?
20:44:17 <b_jonas> izabera: -1 (in one of the notations. time zones are notated in two opposite ways.)
20:44:30 <b_jonas> izabera: the one almost nobody uses that is, because it's in the atlantic
20:44:44 <b_jonas> izabera: most of Europe is on +1, which is +2 in most of the year actually, but +1 now in the winter
20:45:05 <fizzie> There isn't much where it's like that summer-only.
20:45:10 <izabera> not sure why but i kinda hoped it was +1 because i live there but it wouldn't change my life in the slightest way but still
20:46:41 <fizzie> Iceland is permanently UTC-local.
20:47:50 <fizzie> (And many countries in Africa, I'm just being eurocentric.)
20:52:01 <fizzie> Somehow I always think of Iceland being very far up north, even though it isn't really.
20:59:30 <b_jonas> that's actually Greenland, and it's very far up west, not north
21:00:05 -!- mihow has joined.
21:16:49 <hppavilion[1]> Also, a complex operation called (for now) "swapation"
21:17:23 <hppavilion[1]> If $ is swapation (prefix, lower precedence than +), then $a+bi = b+ai
21:18:04 <hppavilion[1]> The only obvious properties I can think of of $ are:
21:18:53 <hppavilion[1]> A) c+di = $a+bi -> sqrt(a**2+b**2) = sqrt(c**2+d**2)
21:19:25 <hppavilion[1]> (More simply, the swapation of a complex number has the same absolute value, which is of course different from modulus because calling abs(z) the "modulus" of z is stupid)
21:20:08 <hppavilion[1]> B) $$z=z ($ is its own negation, similar to conjugate)
21:20:37 <hppavilion[1]> I saw the first time and was formulating a response
21:21:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Do you think there's any practical use for $?
21:21:40 <oerjan> well it's not analytic
21:22:01 <oerjan> and it's not a field isomorphism
21:23:18 <oerjan> so it combines the flaws of i* and conj(). also in math conj() is usually just a macron, so the notation isn't really shorter either
21:23:30 <hppavilion[1]> There's also $ for generalized polynomials, called "rotation", with the property that $(a[0]x**n+a[1]x**(n-1)+...a[n]x**(n-n=0) is equal to... something
21:23:51 <hppavilion[1]> I guess that you rotate the a's by one, but not the exponents, or vice versa
21:24:06 <hppavilion[1]> Then of course ~$, revrot, which does the same thing in reverse
21:24:45 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes, but is there any time one would ever want to swapate a binomial (complex or not)?
21:25:20 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, is there any use for i*conj(z) that comes up even remotely often?
21:25:50 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Also, what do you think of fuzzy sets where the fuzziness of an element is generalized to the complexes?
21:26:37 <oerjan> i doubt it comes up often enough to justify a new notation.
21:27:19 <oerjan> especially since if you are doing that kind of manipulation, it's probably better to keep everything in terms of z and conj(z) for uniformity
21:27:36 <oerjan> (as long as you want to use complex notation)
21:28:03 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: OK, but if I ever write a paper that makes heavy use of i*(z*) I'm using $.
21:29:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Why do you do "OKAY" in fullcaps? It makes you look angry.
21:29:49 <oerjan> as for your polynomial version, one problem i see is that it depends on whether a coefficient is 0 or not.
21:30:10 <oerjan> i.e. if a[0] = 0, you suddenly have degree one less.
21:30:11 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: You fill in 0 coefficients, but only up to the degree of the polynomial
21:30:25 <oerjan> yes, and that makes it nonlinear.
21:31:18 <oerjan> it means that if you rotate x^n and x^n + 1, then the difference is not the rotation of 1.
21:31:32 <oerjan> which is sort of an ugly property.
21:32:10 <oerjan> oh even worse, the rotation is not invertible
21:32:28 <oerjan> x^n -> 1, no matter what n is
21:33:21 <oerjan> (well either that or revrot, not sure which one is which direction)
21:34:06 <oerjan> to sum up, i think you need to include n in the notation for it to be sane.
21:34:41 <oerjan> time to put on pizza...
21:36:04 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: also OKAY in full caps means i'm being incredulous hth
21:39:12 <oerjan> if you include n in the notation, then you can also apply it to polynomials of even larger degree, it will just ignore those coefficients.
21:39:52 <oerjan> complex fuzziness: no idea how useful it is, but i could say almost the same thing about ordinary fuzzy sets.
21:40:18 <oerjan> (i hear it's used in AI?)
21:43:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:43:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: btw if you restrict it to polynomials of lower degree, then it's basically multiplying by x followed by modulo by x^(n+1) - 1.
21:43:57 <oerjan> or multiplying by x^n, for the reverse
21:46:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:01:27 * oerjan smiles at google's new year's eve doodle
22:02:05 <oerjan> i wonder if it distinguishes time zone
22:06:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:07:28 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Thu Dec 31 23:07:25 2015
22:08:02 <oerjan> i assume it would use that i'm on google.no then
22:09:11 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:09:49 <HackEgo> 2015-12-31 22:09:46.564324000+00:00
22:09:52 <b_jonas> less than an hour localtime here
22:10:01 <HackEgo> 2015-12-31 23:09:58.476564000+01:00
22:20:17 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:23:34 <b_jonas> no, it's the year that's running out.
22:25:00 <shachaf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGvlw7qBoJQ#t=2m
22:25:00 <oerjan> also, this meat lover's pizza feels extravagant
22:25:05 <shachaf> confirmation that time is running out hth
22:26:09 -!- augur has joined.
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22:33:51 <zzo38> Why hasn't the SQLite bug I reported has been fixed or even acknowledged yet?
22:34:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: I dunno. the one I reported is fixed, and the fix will be in the release some time in January.
22:35:47 <zzo38> Maybe you can write to them though, I don't know
22:42:02 -!- variable has joined.
22:54:45 <zzo38> Does it work better if you write to them do you even know how to do such thing better? But first see if you understand what my bug report is at least.
22:55:37 <b_jonas> why would it help if I write? I didn't get it right at first, I had to write a second letter.
22:55:49 <b_jonas> and then a third when drhipp committed a wrong fix
22:55:57 <b_jonas> (a partial fix, let's say)
22:56:08 <zzo38> Then tell someone else who does know how to get it right
22:56:11 <b_jonas> (though he would have figured it out when running the tests anyway, but later)
22:58:06 <zzo38> I received no reply
22:58:18 <b_jonas> @8-ball will they listen to zzo38 next time?
22:58:22 <b_jonas> `8-ball will they listen to zzo38 next time?
22:58:42 <b_jonas> midnight's close, pour the champagne
22:59:05 <fizzie> One more hour to go here.
23:02:01 <b_jonas> yeah I know, everyone here's in the UK or Finland so they don't celebrate now
23:03:14 <oerjan> seems you have to reload the google doodle manually
23:05:17 <oerjan> b_jonas: wait, i just thought you were in paris
23:06:42 <b_jonas> oerjan: most of continental Europe is in the +1 timezone. Europe/Paris is the name I use for that timezone (+1 with the European daylight saving rules) because Paris is like the biggest city in the zone.
23:07:39 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: what? 10 hours?
23:07:47 <b_jonas> is it in Alaska or something?
23:08:37 <shachaf> But the HP Pavilion is in San Jose.
23:09:06 <b_jonas> right, Alaska and 10 hours matches
23:24:42 -!- boily has joined.
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23:35:56 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow).
23:42:35 <boily> IEUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
23:43:58 <boily> how's the future? 2016? has the world ended in nucular conflagrations or other apocalyptic robotic seismic ubpringings?
23:46:42 <oerjan> well, not robotic. they involve kittens hth
23:47:11 <boily> oh, so about five hours remaining until kittensplosion.
23:47:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:48:01 <oerjan> also i'm not sure about seismic. it's hard to measure with all the kittens in the way.
23:48:53 <boily> sample kittens, measure amplitude, scale up.
23:49:41 <boily> . o O ( huh. somebody built a huge maya pyramid somewhere very random on our server. who, why, when, and are they mapolable for their architecturactions. )
23:51:05 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Everyone is mapolable. Not being mapolable is punishable by mapoling, LTIC
23:51:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2015]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46056 * 50.161.94.113 * (+173) We need another [[2014]]!
23:51:28 <oerjan> well, sometimes you may need to soak your mapole in holy water first.
23:52:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:2015]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46057 * Hppavilion1 * (+115) No.
23:53:12 <hppavilion[1]> My comment on the page was almost as long as the page itself.
23:53:13 <oerjan> this is what happens when you don't make an article in time hth
23:53:39 <b_jonas> quick, someone invent a 2015 language
23:53:41 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Perhaps we should salvage the page and make one that references all the stuff that happened in 2015
23:54:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: btw `2015 exists, and has done so for almost a year hth
23:54:25 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
23:54:36 <oerjan> b_jonas: try again in 6 minutes hth
23:54:50 <hppavilion[1]> You know, a sort of historical language. It would talk about the Refugee crisis in the form of programming, et cetera.
23:55:07 <b_jonas> (newlines instead of semicolons. crazy.)
23:55:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: we already invented 2015, a year ago. hth.
23:57:18 <hppavilion[1]> I love how "it [2014] has probably faded into uselessness"
23:57:31 <hppavilion[1]> Because, you know, it was always particularly useful
23:58:12 <HackEgo> cat: bin/1492: No such file or directory
23:58:12 <boily> everything is terrible.
23:58:15 <hppavilion[1]> `` echo "#!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo \"Hello, world!\" \ fi" > bin/1492
23:58:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/1492: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/1492: cannot execute: Permission denied
23:59:57 <oerjan> those are not actual \s